We were in marriage counseling for the three months last year while the affair was going strong.

After exposure (1 week after counseling ended) and our endless hours getting close to eachother again, whenever I asked about it, he said he had NOT told OW that we were in marriage counseling.

Yesterday he revealed to me that he'd told OW he wanted a divorce (during time we were in marriage counseling). This was because I asked him how OW CUOLD (in good conscience, because I think she's inherently evil) go after a man who was NOT available? He said he'd told her he was going to be available, and that he'd wanted a divorce.

But he'd never told me (during the marriage counseling & concurrent affair (12/10-3/11) that he was even interested in someone else, or a divorce, for that matter, and OW KNEW THAT!

Tonight I asked him about it again, and he said that he HAD told OW we were in marriage counseling, and he doesn't remember saying any different(!)while he's falling asleep just now, and he doesn't want to stay awake any later to talk about THIS.

So I said, "I understand now why she thought I was such a joke. Thank you."

It just hurts and hurts and hurts.

Earlier today I was shocked by him telling me on the phone at work that he doesn't hate OW. How could he not hate her after what she did to us, what she did to me? All the threats she made against me after exposure 3/11 & 10/11!?!

It makes me suspicious all over again, bcause the farther away from it he was getting, the more clearly he could see that he'd been played and manipulated. Now he's defensive. Tells me I'm the only one, that NO CONTACT remains in effect.

Yet earlier today he said to me, "I'm not going to tell you anything more, becaues you get too upset. I was just telling you my feelings. I am NOT going to contact her."

I want him to tell me his feelings. I want the whole story. For 4 months last year, he was closer to OW in his head than he was to me, and I want those 4 months back. It is essential I hear the whole story and all of the horrible nuances, right?
The affair was largely emotional, but their closeness was, in many ways, far worse than any passionate sex could have ever been.

It's just killing me, it being Christmas again, and this all being tied up wth his rejection of my oldest son (grown and moved out; not doing well).

Yes, you need honesty from him. But (1) you should schedule together, in advance, the time when you'll discuss the affair, so that he doesn't feel "ambushed" and in order that you both can control how much of your UA time will be focused on the affair; and (2) you should do your best to not AO him when he tells you something that you wish hadn't happened.

Even if he's repentant (and I'm in no position to judge whether he is or isn't), he can't change or take back what he felt & did in the past. All he can do is be honest, in as much detail as you want him to remember & share with you. (If he is repentant, then he's embarrassed about all of it.)

Here's an excerpt from HNHN--the chapter on Openness & Honesty:

"Do you do anything to discourage your husband in this area? More specifically, do your values encourage or discourage your H to be open and honest with you? Do your reactions encourage or discourage your H from revealing the truth, even when it's unpleasant? To see how you rate, answer these questions:

1. If the truth is terribly upsetting to you, do you want your spouse to be honest and open only at a time when you are emotionally prepared?

2. Do you keep some aspects of your life secret and do you encourage your spouse to respect your privacy in those areas?

3. Do you like to create a certain mystery between yu and your spouse?

4. Are there subjects or situations about which you want to avoid radical honesty?

5. Do you ever make selfish demands when your spouse is open and honest with you?

6. Do you ever make disrespectful judgments when your spouse is open and honest with you?

7. Do you ever have angry outbursts when your spouse is open and honest with you?

8. Do you dwell on mistakes when your spouse is open and honest with you?

If you answer yes to any of the first four questions, you tend to compromise on the value of honesty and openness. Apparently you fell your marriage is better off with less information in certain situations......

If you answer yes to the remaining questions, you are punishing honesty and openness. The way to help your spouse learn to be transparent is to minimize the negative consequences of his truthful revelations. If your spouse is faced with a fight whenever truth is revealed, he'll keep his thoughts to himself."

The truth is going to hurt to hear, but if you want your H to be open and honest, the only way to encourage him to do so is to take a deep breath when you hear something painful and thank him for telling you.

We all know it's painful.

Then you should have it. I am puzzled as to why this much time has gone by, and you still haven't been able to address this.

I think you need to go about it a bit differently. First of all, don't ambush him with questions when he's going to sleep.

Explain to your H, if you haven't already, that it is critical for the healing of your M that you have an honest accounting of the affair. Tell him you understand that it is a difficult thing to talk about (for both of you!) but is necessary if you are to successfully recover from the A. Work with him to arrive at a time when you can sit down together and talk about it. I would suggest you compile a list of questions to ask him. And when you're done with the session, you're done asking the questions. So make sure your list is thorough.

It is a hindrance to healing to keep bringing up the A, so get it done in one session.

And when you're done, THANK HIM for being honest with you. Don't punish him by getting angry or upset because he gave you what you asked. He needs to know that he can be honest with you and not be punished for it.

Thank you for this insight. Things about the affair come up in conversation a lot with us, and since I read your thoughts on this, I have been bringing it up less. A lot of times he brings it up. I know it's important to get to the heart of how he felt and what went wrong now that he is more than willing to share what his feeling were like, and we can get past this.
AO had been a big LB with us throughout our 21-year marriage. That has affected some of our older kids really badly, and we have been working hard to treat eachother with respect at all times. I am often more sad than angry about revelations.
Because it was so entrenched, and there were 3 D-days (we were in recovery w/ NC this past summer before the A came back for Sept-Oct)it is sometimes hard for me to believe that recovery is real, and I become very anxious and doubtful and need reassurance a lot.

Thank you. Reading this and having this awareness has helped me considerably!

Thank you. The reason it has been so difficult to address is that we'd already been through an honest accounting in recovery (June-August w/ NC) and then it started up again in Sept, kind of at arms length, and still with daily UA time, that my sense of reality and adequacy had all been distorted again. In the end he'd needed my help to get rid of OW's attempts at contact completely, and I am still sometimes unsettled by that.

The further behind us this is, the better I am at feeling safe and needing to ask less questions. I am thanking him for appreciating his O&H and resaaurance now. It gets easier as it's more voluntary.

Learning to negotiate with your spouse without demands, disrespect, and anger is a huge win in a family with children. Once you learn it with your spouse, you'll naturally begin applying the same lessons toward your children as well.

Of course, your goal is not to build a romantic relationship with your children! So the Policy of Joint Agreement is a good guideline for parent-child relationships if you can make it work, and it tends to work better the older they get, but it's not an absolute rule like it needs to be in marriage. It helps preserve a respectful relationship, even when your child inevitably makes choices with which you disagree, but there are times when it's not appropriate, particularly the younger they are. It's really great with teenagers, though.

Doormat No More, when I posted that I was thinking about how the years of watching mom & dad always at odds with one antoher shaped my 3 adult childrens' intimate partner relationships.

To see H & I together, talking things out and getting along, coming to mutual agreements, sets a new and different example for DS and his GF (they live together and have a child), and for DD and her H.

I think my H might still be wayward because I see that he has unblocked OW's daughter (age 21, homewrecker junior, financier of the affair phone (phone surrenderred Oct 15))from his facebook account within the past week.

About 4 weeks ago I discovered that H had unblocked OW herself, and I called him on it. He got agitated and said, "I don't know what you're talking about", and "You must have done that," and "I have NOT contacted her," and THIS was a RED FLAG to me: "I shouldn't have given you my password," and "You can't live like this."

That night he would not admit he was lying, even though I said, "You and I both know that you're lying". Today he admitted it when I asked him about it. Said he hadn't wanted her to think that she was dead to him. I said "Then you can be dead to me."

I said that I wanted him to send OW a no contact letter. He said that at this point it would just be rubbing salt in the wound. That may be so; she has contacted him with a vengeance in the past every time he broke it off with her.

No contact has been in effect since Nov 9, and a letter out of the blue might compel OW to contact H again. (The A lasted on and off for a year 11/10-10/11). OW's daughter used facebook messaging to WH last summer, and that ended with H telling OW's daughter to wait, that now was "not the time". (A resumed when school started thru Oct 16).

H is adamant that he wants nothing to do w/ OW and is committed to me and our future, and he is grateful for the chance to work on our M and for my not giving up on him.

But this bothers me. Why would he unblock OW's daughter from facebook? Why should he care about OW's "wounds"? She's a serial OW, and she should have known EXACTLY how it would turn out for her, getting involved with a married man.

I feel H is patronizing me to tell me that I "can't live like this". I am the one who lives with having been deceived, perpetually in an uncertain, questioning agony. Not him.

I blocked OW's D again (just now). I hate confronting H about things like this. After all we've been though, why this now? We are supposed to go on a trip tomorrow (H, me, and our two little ones).

OW's daughter wanted my H for her stepfather. H had been enamored by OW & her kids'family closeness. He spent time with OW's family periodically when he was missing from our family last winter.

H already has two stepchildren - my two oldest. We married when they were babies. He promised to be a father to them, and he helped me raise them. He is not close to them now, but he is close to our 21-year-old we had together.

If it hadn't been for the marriage counselor (12/10-3/11)telling me I should believe him, instead of me listening to my own instincts, I would have stopped the affair before it became severely entrenched. I found MB this past August. A lot of things I would have done differently had I known better.

I had never been in this situation before. H had never cheated. I cheated 12 years ago, an internet EA, nothing like this long drawn-out mess, and H was devastated then. I gave up all contact with OM and repented quickly. Why has H been so reticent?

Why has H been so reticent?

A bad marraige counselor.

Yes you have been in this situation before. Except you had the role of the WW in that movie. Now you have the BW role this time around.

Not finding MB after the first affair (your's) so you and your BH/WH did not heal properly and learn how to have a safe and healthy marriage that MB teaches.

Only you have found and are using MB.

WH is still angry from your affair.

So keep on working MB. I don't know if it's time to bring WH here, but get the SAA book leave it around. Say I was reading this in a book that to have a good marriage.....

A few notes.

1. The affair has been renewed (at least in the past) through Facebook. This means that one of your husband's Extraordinary Precautions needs to be NO FACEBOOK FOR LIFE. And possibly no computer use, if he continues to make you feel unsafe with his computer use.

Sounds harsh? It is. This is why you feel unsafe. He has facebook. He can unblock OW, send her a message, then block her again and you'd be none the wiser.

So what would the POJA say? If you just tell him, "I am unhappy when you use Facebook", he should simply not use Facebook again. It's Extraordinary Precautions, it's the Policy of Joint Agreement, and it's an absolute prerequisite to a happy life together.

2. If he continues to act in a way that makes you feel unsafe, you need to get ready to separate from him. Get all your legal ducks in a row. Your husband is still very much in withdrawal from the OW, and some setbacks are somewhat normal, but renewed contact is a deal-breaker. Talk to a lawyer to find out what you'll need to do to protect yourself. Talk to family, friends, or a landlord to arrange where you will live if or when you need to go to Plan B.

I'm not going to go as far as some would to say you're definitely fighting an active affair right now, but his behavior has red flags all over it. Unblocking the other woman on Facebook? Even USING Facebook at all, in any way, after having used it to further his affair?

He's not following the Extraordinary Precautions that are required to prevent an affair. He's trying to find ways to keep OW in his life -- even if only through her daughter -- and that keeps him deeply in Withdrawal.

Extraordinary Precautions are called that for a reason. Your WH needs to go the extra mile so that you feel safe.

He needs to cancel his Facebook account and stay off any other social networks he might be using. Twitter, etc.

He may sincerely want to recover your marriage, but he is not putting EPs into place to enable that recovery to begin. I would start with Facebook. He needs to lose that. He's already demonstrated that it is a catalyst for sliding back into the affair.

But remember you can only control YOURSELF, not him. An Extraordinary Precaution requirement is a demand, but a calculated one.

"Sweetheart, I feel unsafe with you having a Facebook account. Because of the problems it has created in the past and is continuing to create today, I cannot remain with you while you have Facebook access. I would gladly give up Facebook myself if you were to do likewise."

I almost feels to me as though I am the one doing something sneaky; here I am online, talking about him behind his back -for healthy and constructive reasons I am doing this. But I have hurt him before by spending time on a computer, talking about him.

We had a discussion this morning. He says he's glad I caught him unblocking OW 4 weeks back, and he does not want to get any messages from her or her daughter. We ended up having a romantic morning alone together.

Thank you for the insights. I will work on this. I could use some better phrasing when I am making an EP request/demand.

We are going on a trip with our two youngest children as soon as school gets out.

IARTQ,

I had never been in this situation before. H had never cheated. I cheated 12 years ago, an internet EA, nothing like this long drawn-out mess, and H was devastated then. I gave up all contact with OM and repented quickly. Why has H been so reticent?

Sometimes men keep things in and don't recover, although on the surface they appear to, that was me before I found MB, he might never have believed that this was only an internet EA. So for 12 years his resentment towards you grew and grew in a compartmentalized part of his being.

He may also have felt that this was his last chance to get his revenge for your EA. I had those feelings for a good many years, actually more than 20. It was particularly acute since when my WW had her affair with OM2 she was in her 20's and if I were to have an affair I would have to settle for a less desirable woman.

Was OMW ever told of the EA? Did your H ever confront OM?

God Bless
Gamma

It's important to remember the advice from the radio show when this kind of reasoning for infidelity shows up, though.


So it's important to address what makes HIM feel unsafe, too. There's a good chance there are some extraordinary precautions you could do that would make him feel safer, too.

His anger and defensiveness over the facebook discovery is a tell tale sign to me that he is planning on re-initiating contact, if he hasn't already. Waywards always get defensive and angry when they are called on their cheating actions. Its textbook stuff. Sounds like he's in and out of the fog. When he's reasonable let him know this. Agree with the posts about POJA and EP's. Only way to recovery it would seem to me.

Gamma,

H's OW was not attractive or desirable (at least not to anyone else). She is older, plain-looking, fat (weighs nearly twice as much as I do), and a financial wreck.

My internet OM 12 years ago was single, so there was no OMW. H confronted OM and scared him away, told him off.

That entire A lasted 3 weeks, with internet and phone contact only. (H knew it was an internet/phone only A) H had saved and printed the emails telling OM off, and OM's acceptance of NC. I pulled the letters out of a drawer this past November for H to read, because it seemed H had forgotten he'd loved me that much, fought for me, and won.

Doormat No More, H and I have been discussing the facebook thing at length. He agrees with me. He says it was a catalyst to the renewal of the A after OW's transfer. I've told him how his use of FB makes me feel.

I have the password and check it every day or two. That was how I caught the unblock in early December. If you go on FB and try to block someone you've recently unblocked, you will get an error message that says you can't block a user you've unblocked in the past 48 hours.

We're also talking about my A 12 years ago. I asked him in a few different ways if there were things I could have done differently afterward to make him feel safe. He kept saying that I had done everything right. Then I realized what had made him feel secure again with me way back then. I had stopped flirting in any way whatsoever, and did not start again.

The EP's in place so far:
I have all his passwords; access to computer, phone activity.
He doesn't go out with friends after work unless we've got a sitter and he's bringing me with him.
We talk at least once every two hours while we're apart. (work)
We are together every second that we can be.

(Some of these things may not really be considered EP's, I guess.)

More stuff comes out that still needs to be worked through. I have trouble keeping my mind on work or whatever I am supposed to be doing, because I worry.

Prior to D-day #1 3/12/11 H had been planning on leaving me for OW. Not messing around, but really thinking his future (and the kids'!) might be with someone else. (No realization then that I would be the custodial parent; I wasn't unfaithful and I had no desire to end the marriage.)

POJA w/o sufficient UA time is really hard to do. H is on board with both, though he's not one to follow any kind of map. We have some hard things to talk through.

I want to take the kids with me to see my oldest child, his GF of 4 years, and my 1-year-old grandson. They live nearby. They have some very serious problems that they do not want help with, disaster impending. The baby needs a grandmother in his life. DS's GF's mom died in 2009.

H became angry when I told him I think we need to go over there to see them, check on them, let them know someone cares about them. He said they can come to our house, and he will not like it if I take the kids there. But they will not answer the phone, and I am worried about them. Now I have 2 days off work, but I have the kids and H is working.

FWH had been comtemplating and setting up a whole separate life for our kids, far away from me, without my knowledge, with OW who had been his boss at the time. OW and HER much older kids knew my kids by name and were under the impression that I am a horrible mother whom my kids need protection from. That was never true, and FWH said nothing to disabuse OW and her family of that notion.

FWH had NOT taken our kids to OW's house or to meet OW anywhere except the retail store where they both worked. I had asked him NOT to take the kids to the store while OW was working after D-day. He was sneaking a lot to stay in contact w/ OW long after he said he'd committed to the future with me. He went with the kids to the store to talk to OW (to innocently shop) against my pleas.

He says the comparison is apples and oranges. I say it's the same because it's about one partner forcing his/her will on the other. But I did get him to calm down and listen to me, a huge improvement from the way we were living before, making independent decisions that we both had to live with (his words).

I want to honor his wishes. But I miss my son and my grandson, and the kids miss them too.

An update: shortly after I last posted, the situation with my oldest DS and his GF came to a head. My H and I were asked on the spot to take temporary custody of the baby. We were in agreement on this and did well, but it was hard. We know we can't do it long term.

We have trouble seeing eye to eye on their whole situation because DS25 is my child from previous marriage, even though H and I raised him together. I am very attached to our grandson; H loves him however does not want to raise him. He did take days off to work to take care of him. The baby (age 1) is very attached to us. It is mostly up to the baby's parents and what happens to them.

We are still making lots of UA time and talking things out. Recovery and romance is better and better. Revelations have stopped surfacing. Memories are still prevalent, and I am trying not to get upset at every trigger (there are many). He's reassuring me every step of the way.

I am understanding when I read here that the first year is hard for memories. We are almost 4 months into NC now, with no regrets.

I don't understand why your WH is trying to distance himself from your DS. When a man takes on a wife it's for life. When a man takes on a wife with baggage he takes on the baggage for life as well.

If the man is only willing to do carry the luggage till it turns 18 then he should make this be clearly known when he asks a woman to marry him.

Then the woman should tell this loser take a hike.

Every GP does not want to have to raise their GK's full time. But when their childs marriage or ability to raise the GK goes south who else does your WH expect to raise this GK?

It still seems that your WH only wants to do what he wants.

How did you and your WH come together and marry.

I strongly encourage you to read HNHN for parents, there is a section on Blended families.

Your WH is still wayward and until he is unwilling to do POJA and UA, then you are not safe with him.

I would look into a short Plan A time with him, and then get ready for Plan B.

I am certain that my H is no longer wayward as defined by infidelity: Sneaking around; maintaining an extramarital relationship; loyalty to an OW. It didn't take him long (after NC 11/9/11) to realize he had been selfish, greedy, and cruel.

Other meanings of the word "wayward" are apt descriptors of my H. He has always been unconventional, liked to do things his own way, enjoyed having a good time in life, partied too much, and resisted efforts to get him to do what I (before me, his parents) wanted him to do. He took his time about growing up.

He was steadfastly loyal to me though, for 21 years. He worshipped the ground I walked on, had eyes only for me, overwhelmed me with too much love.Other women were never a temptation to him. I took his attention for granted for years.

He does UA and POJA with me. But yes, he has a history of being kind of hard to handle and "my way or the highway" in conflicts, especially about the kids. Throughout the whole history of our marriage, we have had more disagreements about my oldest son than anything else, including money, sex, housework, time together, or the other four children.

We met 23 years ago at a party at a friend's house. It was March 11, 1989.

I was 21, and my two children, aged 2-1/2 and 1, were the center of my life. I was in the middle of a divorce (separated 19 months), working full-time at a decent job, and was moving into my own apartment with my children, independently from my parents who had been helping me a lot.

He was 23 and working, living at home with parents, went out at night a lot, played the guitar, was in a band with his friends who were all intelligent and nice people. He had a big smile, was intelligent to talk to, liked to talk about music, told me about concerts he had tickets for and wanted to take me with him.

He'd had one long-term relationship that had ended 2 years before. I'd had a lot of quick encounters as a teenager but not many real dates or traditional boyfriends.

...hope I can type more later; gotta get back to the kids; hard to get any free time around here!

Tomorrow is D-Day anniversary 1 -year.

Today is our anniversary, the day we first met in 1989, 23 years.

The Road, You were right about this. The first dishonesties about OP in my M came from ME, not my FWH/FBH. Real O&H from me about details of my A from 20 years ago were not asked for and were long ovedue to make real healing happen for us. He has needed that from me, and the UA from me, all of this time.

Gamma, you hit the nail on the head here. Your insight helped me realize the damage I did years ago, to my DH who likely never would have done this to me, had I never done anything like it to him. But I did.
IARTQ

I just started reading this post and it sounds so much like my H and myself. Thank you IARTQ for your honesty because your story is helping me.

Thank you, fifteenyears, I am glad to know that reading my story could help you.

This continues to be a point of resistance for my DWH. I don't understand it either, The Road. He raised my son with me from age 2-1/2 on.

They had violent arguements (WH and my oldest son) when DS was a teenager and wouldn't do anything he was supposred to do (go to school, do homework, stop taking drugs, etc.) My son's biological father encouraged him to misbehave and disobey. XH wanted to get back at me for leaving him behind and moving on.

I don't understand why my H still harbors such animosity for my child. He is in prison! One of the Corporal Works of Mercy is to comfort the imprisoned. Why can't H even talk to him on the phone, send him a letter, say kind things about him, anything at all?

Yes, you all are right. This is waywardness.

For what reason? It serves my WH no long-term happiness to tell me he won't watch our grandson while I go get groceries, because, "I am not raising my stepson's child".

It's selfish and immature, and he never called this grown child we raised "stepson!" So why?

He says, "Because I don't want to."

Well there are a lot of things I don't want to do, too. But I do them. And, yes, sometimes it p!sses me off, because I am doing more than my share. But, so what! Complaining is fruitless. I am venting here now. Thanks for reading.

To bad you did not find MB during your first marriage.
Not all men are willing to be step dads. They may put up a front because they can't have the woman they want unless they take on the baggage.

Problem is finding a man to marry a woman with kids that is willing to be a step dad.

By now you see the difference between a man putting up with a stepson and a man accepting, wanting a stepson.

I had been wanting to edit my post because I was whining. I'd stayed awake too late that night, troubled by the bad parts of the day and not even focusing on my H's admission that he "didn't mean to be unwilling", that there are lots of things he will do, but was frustrated right then, and offered to do more with taking care of the baby. (We have our GS 2 or 3 days a week, and at least one of those days DH spends with GS and our other kids while I'm working.)

He is mad at my son, whom I miss very much, but realizes that it's not the child's fault. DH put the crib together at the GGP's house the next morning.

My first marriage was when I was a teenager. It was doomed from the start. I'd known XH 2-1/2 months when I married him and six days later looked into getting it annulled. XH's parents wanted me to "fix" him, and I followed through with nuptials at their behest. I was a bratty kid who did not want to go home and go to college and admit to my parents that I was making a bad decision. My XH is not much better off in life than DS is even now today, and he's had 47 years to get his life figured out.

I have to be careful not to polarize things, pull them out of context, and fall into a downward spiral of anger.

My DH is back, all the way back, the real him, the way he was before the A, O&H about everything, loves me and only me, and does his very best to take care of me in every regard. He says the A was a big mistake, wishes he could erase it because of the hurt he caused me. He is very patient and caring; he doesn't expect me to just get over it. This is what I wanted more than anything in the world, so I need to figure out how to appreciate my life, my H, and my kids, and stop getting so angry all the time.

Are you following the Marrigebuilders program?

Yes, we are. We are doing well. All my most important EN's are met. We have 18-24 hours/week UA time focusing on the Big Four, with no kids, phones, friends, or television. Our conflict negotiation is pleasant and enjoyable together, and we have tons of topics to discuss and POJA. We both avoid LB's.

I need to stop worrying so much and try to get beyond the lingering BW mentality of insecurity. Yes, I am "good enough".
But I still need constant reassurance, even though I am getting full O&H. There are no new "revelations that hurt".

Maybe if I tell my D-day story here, I can put it to rest and not think of it anymore. Maybe it will help someone else who reads it.

I've read stories here that have helped me tremendously. I've also read, and identified with) posts from BH's saying that coming here is a trigger for them.

I want to put my H's intense year-long EA behind me. It has been almost a year since NC, and I need to forget about it. DH says he no longer thinks about OW, acknowledges the EA as a huge mistake and character flaw in him that I in no way caused. He worries about the hurt and damage that he did to me.

He swept me off my feet. He came to see me every day after work as soon we started dating. It was the third time we'd been out together in three weeks, when he first kissed me. I had never been so in love. I'd not been emotionally intimate with any man before, though I'd been physical before and had even been married. He wanted to wait for SF with me. He brought me fresh flowers every week. He made compilations of songs for me on tape, and listened to the music with me as I grew to know new songs, and he sang with me.
We saw eachother every day for months. His attention to me and my children was total.

IARTQ, I'm pulling this back to your thread because I didn't want to "load up" MSS's with additional issues, but you did say:

Yet I walk the parapet, aware of every possible threat, real or imagined. I am changing my outlook now, searching for disengulfment from an old fog.

If this proves to endure as the new orientation of your recovery, kiddo, then I will count yesterday as a VERY good day.

The roots are enwound deeply beneath the earth. Fruit bursts forth with promise this spring.

Yet there are new enemies on the horizon. I may be my own enemy in the long term by going into my marriage with children I was already committed to for life, no matter what. If my H finds ally to his perspective on my oldest child's viability and rejects my inherent interest, I must change the scope of my recovery.

Now here comes Pollyanna (cynicism noted): UA time is now compromised. FWH is quitting smoking. He is working more and earlier hours. The kids don't go to bed until 10. I am learning to be okay with myself. I am a good companion for me, and I don't have to feel disappointment when my spouse goes to bed early. I just forgot what to do when I am alone. UA time has been a fortress.

I once said my FWH has always been kind of wayward. He's fixing all of that now, and I sometimes feel adrift, not knowing what to expect next, how the next relapse will affect me, affect our family. He is eschewing all love busters (he's not using this program nor is he familiar with its tenets, but somehow he knows). He's putting his energy into work at his job and with the kids.

The 4-5x /week SF I really need. His meeting the Big Four I really miss.

We are raising two nine-year-olds and a 2yo grandchild. I am working FT and trying to stay grounded.

Please tell me, anyone? Exactly how do you stop asking about The Affair? How do you stop thinking about it? How do you ever forget your spouse wanted someone else whose countenance and whose children seemed more pleasant? What can I do to forget about/move beyond/ get over that?

Please post concrete advice in text (if possible) for how to stop talking about, and how to stop thinking about, FWS's A.

Have you seen this and listened to the clips?

How is your UA time?
Managing Memories and Dealing with Triggers

You need to make your present marriage the best it can be. If you do that, you will be content to stay in the here and now and not keep going back to the past. Much of the anxiety in your earlier posts suggest difficulties in improving your present marriage. You need to put your attention into addressing the issues of the present. Don't talk about the affair, rather, talk about *now*. Accept that you will never "understand" the affair. It doesn't make sense to you because it doesn't make sense. Thinking about it won't cause it to make more sense, and the further you get into recovery, the less likely it is that your spouse will even be able to explain his former foggy self.

Why is he not here, working the program?
This should be a deal-breaker.
He should be giving you Just Compensation -- working to build a romantic relationship with you.
When he does that, you will have an easier time leaving the past in the past.

You forget about it by making the present happy. You use this program to make your marriage a happy, romantic, fulfilling marriage. When the present is happy, your mind does not go to the past. But when recovery is not complete, resentment grows and grows and the unhappiness of the past stays in the present.

And the way you create a happy marriage is by using this program in its entirety, most especially 15+ hours per week of undivided attention time. This program does not work without that step.


This is where you should start. Start by planning 4 - 4 hour dates per week of undivided attention time OUT OF THE HOME, when you are the most energetic. For example, my DH and I go out around 5:30 to 8 on weeknights and then in the afternoon and the evenings on the weekends. Sit down together once a week and write out your schedule for the upcoming week. Write out the times, dates, planned activities. Time that is scheduled is harder to put off.

Iaintready, can you tell me about the OW? Does she live close by? Where did your H meet her? Do they EVER see each other? Do you see her?

Is she married?

Never mind, I got caught up on your thread and now remember the whole story. One of the issues was your husband's opposite sex friendships and his use of social networking sites like facebook. Has he agreed to end all OS friendships and delete facebook?

Those are the kinds of things that serve as triggers and I wonder if that is not a big part of the problem? I found this post you wrote on 6-2-12:


Is he still doing things like this?

No, ML, that was the last time he's done anything of that sort.

[MrEureka=/quote]You need to make your present marriage the best it can be. If you do that, you will be content to stay in the here and now and not keep going back to the past. Much of the anxiety in your earlier posts suggest difficulties in improving your present marriage. You need to put your attention into addressing the issues of the present. Don't talk about the affair, rather, talk about *now*. Accept that you will never "understand" the affair. It doesn't make sense to you because it doesn't make sense. Thinking about it won't cause it to make more sense, and the further you get into recovery, the less likely it is that your spouse will even be able to explain his former foggy self.[/quote]

Thank you MrE for your concrete advice. You're right - the A will never make sense to me, or to him for that matter, because he was insane in its duration.

He is giving me Just Compensation. I hesitate to talk about MB because he believed my interest in marriage-building relates to my thinking about the A.

Our UA time changed because he quit smoking. I'll have to quit, too, and we'll find new things to do together.

How do I go about having my user name changed to IARTQ? I'm not sure of the best way to contact a moderator.

DH is not enthusiastic about me posting because it's his life on the internet too. He would know who I am here, and RL others might too, by my user name because of song lyrics DH & I listened to together, and by content I have posted.

I want to talk to him about MB, and I have given him a few of Harley's articles to read, but he associates MB and my interest in marriage with how I helped him kill his EA. If it weren't for what I learned reading here, I would not have had the tools to work on a real recovery after the false ones.

Two love busters right there: 1) The Educating Spouse (DJ), 2) Reminding him how he hurt me (DJ or something worse???),

Triggering his LB's 1) Angry outbursts that make my heart beat too fast, full of; 2) Disrespectful judgements that trigger my crying, that then triggers more of his AO's, then dismissiveness (comtempt), then his Independent Behavior.

DH doesn't like the idea of following a plan, though MB was an EP he agreed to 1.6 years ago. The other EPs he agreed to are still fully in place: DH has been diligent, open, and honest. DH is giving me admiration, and more DS and FS lately. SF IC and UA have slacked off, and I have been SDing about that, thus he reacts with AO DJ and IB.

I value your ideas and opinions. Your stories and experiences with the MB program helped me save my marriage.

To change your Display name---

Go to the top of this page to "My Stuff" Click on that

Go to Edit Profile

Go to Change Display name

Enter your new name & click on Submit...

Good Luck

IARTQ, I will be honest with you. You are not in recovery and have a huge problem on your hands. For your husband to even believe these principles are negotiable tells me you have lowered the bar so low that recovery is impossible. He has angry outbursts? He doesn't like Marriage Builders? MB is only a program for recovery, so that tells me he is not serious about recovery.

He is not serious because you are not holding him accountable.

Unless you and your husband take this seriously, I predict you will be back here reporting another affair. That is what happens when marriages do not recover.

If your husband won't get on board, I would strongly suggest you start coaching with Steve Harley and get Steve to get him on board. You have nothing to lose here. I would go counsel with Steve on your own and get his suggestions on the best way to get your husband on board. You don't have a marriage otherwise.

My H and I are both committed and sincere about rebuilding our marriage. He faithfully keeps all EPs as proscribed in the beginning. I have not lowered the bar, and he is quite accountable. We spend nearly all our leisure time together, and we are passionately in love with eachother.

I tend to post in times of stress. In the past few months my H is working full time again, and struggling with quitting smoking. These are changes we are working through. We have many challenges with our 5 children and our family. If LB's continue, we'll call Dr. Harley before pursuing other types of marriage counseling.

My previous LB's to my husband as a wife who spent too much time message boarding and getting closer to online friends than I was to him, and denying him the UA time with me he needed (and asked for, for years), keep me from updating during times of peace and blissful rediscovery of our love.

January 6 has been historically disastrous

Being cryptic does not bring help.

TheRoad is right. How are you doing?

I am sorry that this date is a trigger for you.

A successful recovery has a lot to do with remaining in the present and doing things that make the present a wonderful place to be. So, what special thing can you do today?

I agree. Replace any triggers with something better in the present. Do something special and unique today and take this date back so it belongs to you.

Sorry for being cryptic. January 6 went fine. It has been three January 6th's now that we have been happy, with no deceptions or betrayal.

Life has changed for us in the interceding 3 years. We spend all our time together, we sleep together every night, and we are content.

DS1 is out now. DH welcomes him. The rift I'd thought was uncurable there, has too, healed.

The rift has not healed, from H's POV. He brings DS1 and the past into every negotiation about the present and contends that I am impossible, that he cannot work with me, and says that "we should make our arrangements if you're not going to work with me on this."

Mel, you were right: We are not in recovery; H does not take anything seriously. He keeps his own counsel and will not read books or articles about how to save our marriage. We have been to counseling in the past, several times, and he does not take it seriously.

His angry outbursts are over the top. He does not want to support me in raising my grandson. He says my son should do it, and that is true, but DS does not have the resources right now, and I need H's support. I'm working full time and putting a roof over everybody's head, paying all the bills, and doing most of the housework. He says I don't appreciate his efforts, but he is not trying that hard. I am done with plan A and am fighting back now.

Our DS 23 has come home one week ago, at H's insistence, and we have not had any UA time or SF since. There is now a lot of conflict between us, to say the least.

I want to write to Dr. Harley concisely to ask for his advice. The issues are complicated.

We are no longer "in recovery" or "surviving an affair". Not sure where to post this, but need help on how to write the letter to Dr. H before consulting divorce lawyer.

Just write an email with your story. Let us know when you hear back.

If he is having AOs, you should separate until he completes anger management.

Hello,
My husband is not willing to participate in an anger management program. I asked him again about it tonight; he said no. He said he is "in despair" about our marriage, but he's not willing to leave. He asks me to "just be nice" and "everything will be fine" and I'm sure that's true. He does still keep to his EP's, even though it's been 3 years of no contact since his EA. If he were really in despair, he would leave.

Dear Dr. Harley,
I am questioning everything I have learned here about the benefits of a Christian monogamous marriage. My husband is willing, and he is loving, and will meet my most important emotional needs. However he is unwilling to help me raise my grandson, of whom I have custody.

Yesterday I spoke to a domestic violence counselor who advised me to take legal action to get out of my marriage, because he is hurting me. She said I deserve to be free of abuse, and I don't have to live like this, and I have options. I want to have a happy life.

But I have worked hard to be the perfect wife and to save my marriage. I have followed your plan, but I made mistakes. My husband is not willing to read or follow any plan. He does tell me I am perfect, and he tries to meet my intimate emotional needs, and he spends UA time with me. But he steadfastly reiterates that he will not help me raise my grandson. He has angry outbursts frequently. He says I am "torturing" him, but he is not sad, and I am crying at work because he hates my "excruciating phone calls" while he's comfortable at home. I would like for him to seek better employment, and I could retire and care for our two young children, my grandson, and our home.

I have tried to implement plan B, but he refuses to leave.
I've asked him to go to anger management, but he says no.
We have three grown children. Both boys have abused two different girlfriends over he past 4 years.

Neither my son nor the child's mother is capable of caring for my grandson full time. My youngest boy is 10. My grandson is 4. I hope they grow up to be successful men and not abuse women.

It seems mean and opportunistic for me to report my bruises my husband made on my arms 3 days ago. He says he's in despair. Where will he have to go? Once I do it, I can't undo it. He'll be arrested.

On 12/6/07 I pressed charges against him for throwing a load of laundry at me, and there was a restraining order and a court hearing, and my children were angry with me for making him leave. That night I wrote my husband an apology letter telling him how much I loved him and that I would never do anything to hurt him, and mailed it. It sat on the desk, unopened, for over three years.

In 12/10 he began to see OW because he said he'd "given up" on the marriage, but he didn't tell me he was seeing OW until I found out 3/11. I now believe it was the element of surprise that made me fight so hard for our marriage. Also it was because I love him, thought he'd lost his mind, and I didn't want to break up my childrens' home, and I had to stop him from ruining his own life.

He never opened my apology letter for having him arrested. I tore it up during his EA out of frustration, because he would not open it nor emotionally engage with me.

He has changed his life and is devoted to me now. He doesn't go out without me. He answers the phone every time I call, for 3 years now. He emotionally engages with me, but complains that it's "too much", and that I am "difficult". He tells me he loves me constantly. I believe him.

But he's still fighting me. I want to be free of abuse and emotional manipulation. I want to be free to retire and to raise my grandson. I want my husband to be safe and happy with me and our family. What can I do to make things better without hurting him?

Sincerely,
ImNotReadyToQuit

Did you email the above post to Dr Harley?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Thank you. I would like to email my question.

I see that the option for editing my post is gone. I would like to change my post. How can I do that?

You could Notify the MODS or just rewrite it and post it again.