ok well im back and not for a good reason, so an update since my last message here:

For those of you who dont know here is a link to my wifes latest thread:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2604297#Post2604297

The last few months have been the best in our marriage for 4-5 years. Before these months Ive never fully commited to my marriage, in a sense of I always thought if we divorced i'd had a chance at a good single life and achieving my selfish goals etc so I set up in win/win scenario in my head whether I stayed or went. This lead to me never being in "failure is not an option mindset", critical as Steve made me aware for recovery to work.

So we reached breaking point again for our marriage 3 months ago and for the first time ever I decided it was time to grow up and commit to my marriage. I can only describe what happened after as miraculous. I suddenly became attentive and loving, missed my wife constantly, contacted her always when out of the house because I wanted to and not because I had to. I could go on but I fear im looking for admiration again but it is important you understand the incredible turn around I took mentally and therefore our marriage took. Understandably my wife resisted the changes at first as to be honest the overnight changes must have seemed completely fake. We also had a lot of false starts since D-Day 3 years ago. But she is now onboard and sees how natural everything is with me and how im loving and embrasing my marriage too.

We now fully implement the MB principles and follow the recovery plan including UA time and EP boundaries.

So to the new problem.

It was my birthday on Friday 9th March. My friends arranged a night out on Saturday as we havent been out for ages and with 4 kids and a very limited budget it isnt easy. We both went out and had a great evening. A good group of close friends and just having a laugh. We both drank but this isnt an issue or a boundary for us when we are together. At the end of the evening we where sitting in a pub garden around a table. I had my wife sitting to my right and my male friend sitting to my left. A single friend in the group had brought a couple of girls to the table and they all sat opposite us. My friend to my left started a conversation with one of the girls. She got up and came towards us, I thought nothing of it and just assumed she was going to talk to him. Suddenly she sat down on my knees. Because I was sitting normally this meant she sat on my hand. I removed my hand straight away. She spoke to my friend next to me for 30-40secs and then went back to her seat. There was no contact at all between we and the girl. During the time she sat down I was aware it would bother my wife so I tried to cuddle her next to me but she pushed my hand away and gave me angry looks. I didnt do anything to remove the obvious issue (this girl) I just kept trying to cuddle and stroke my wife. After the girl sat down in her own chair my wife excused herself to the toilet. I like a total dweeb just sat looking at the floor thinking that I just hurt her. The girl saw me and realised what she had done and apologised and I just said dont worry.

Basically after that wife got cab home, I walked home, we chatted for hours on phone and then in person.

I have such a low self worth, confidence and esteem; that I hate confrontation. To have said something to the girl would have embarassed me and her and god forbid I do something as manly as that. Instead I chose to damage limitate with my wife hoping we could resolve it later. Reflecting back it would have been so simple to have dealt with it, I could even have been nice and got up and offered her my chair and gone a cuddled my wife and therefore not cause a scene but I didnt and now ive hurt my wonderful wife again and undone the amazing progress we have made.

I want this marriage more than anything and I believe she feels and sees that finally now but I understand she has to protect herself from me. This cowardly act means I have broken the EP of 'no inappriate contact with any women'. My wife has posted a full list of our boundaries as I believe I have previously.

Im scared ive ruined everything and just want her back. I will start everything again of course, id do it in a heartbeat for her.

Please advise id be happy with any input on this matter...

Learning,

First, recognize that in a few seconds you have sent recovery back to day 1. In the blink of an eye, you have wiped out every positive thing you have done up to this point.

How can there possibly of been no contact with this woman sitting on your hand/lap? This is an attempt to minimize your failure to protect your wife's feelings. What is there about you that makes it ok for women to plop their tail down on you in front of your wife? I cannot imagine this happening to ANY of the men I know. They would not allow it and their very demeanor would not invite it. Your comment to the woman "Don't worry" shows that you would protect some trashy person versus protecting your wife's feelings.

Tighten up on your extraordinary precautions, eliminate situations that make these kinds of things possible, and become a caring, protecting husband.

AM

Hello AM,

by 'no contact' I meant that we didnt speak, look at each other or anything more than I described. I meantioned the parts you brought up individally as they were the key points. I was just pointing out that I hadnt left out anything else such as a smile, or a word etc....

Yes I realise I have trashed everything and must start again as im already doing that. I am communciating my feelings and remorse with my my wife regularly and I believe she can feel and see that I am genuine.

I understand what you mean by the EP's but actually believe its my flaws such as the confidence etc that stops me enforcing them. An EP could say "dont let any woman sit on you" but if I cant/wont deal with it the same issue will arise. Please see from how I wrote my first post that I was immediately aware of what was happening and that it would be effecting my wife, I didnt and wasnt enjoying what happened so it isnt a selfish trait or EP issue alone.

Do you agree or am I just wimping out?

Is NB28 your wife?

So what do you plan to do for "just compensation" for your BW?

Did you talk O&H with her about this and what you plan to do to tighten up your boundaries?

Hello BrainHurts,

Yes NB28 is my wife and the link to her thread is in my first post.

I will revisit my boundaries and address them to compensate for what has just happened. As I posted above I would like guidance as I feel that to enforce the EP's I need a serious kick up the [censored] confidence wise.

The just compensation would be to develop into the protective husband she wants and deserves and nothing less.

edit: Yes we have spoken O&H about the whole situtation. Because she was there she witnessed it too anyway. So it was more about exchanging points of view and me understanding how she felt and the damage it had caused.

So let me understand this correctly? In order to protect your wife you need a "serious kick up the [censored] confidence wise"?

So after all your time learning Dr. Harley's concepts you're still struggling?

The actions you speak to your wife, are what?

What about emailing Dr.H and ask him? You write it and follow up with him, not your wife?

Better yet, you know your wife's top needs. What does she need from you?

What are you going to do in the future to have this never happen again?

Do you truly understand what it does to your BW each time you have a FR?

Learning,

You have it backwards. You are using "lack of self esteem" (what is that anyway, except feeling bad that you behave poorly?)as an excuse for poor behavior. If you behave in admirable ways, you will have positive self esteem.

Your current demeanor somehow invites women to plop their behinds squarely on your lap and hand. As I said, I don't know any men that would end up in this situation. Their behavior just would not allow it because their boundaries are such that no woman would think it ok. There are many ways this situation could have been avoided. Have you brainstormed them with your wife?

AM

Why the H did you not stand up and send that tramp sailing off of your lap?!

Sitting there w/ that - I think the word whore is bleeped on here, but... whore - on your lap, and petting your wife whilst the skank sat there - are you kiddingme?

That's like some kind of weird, sick threesome mess.

Your wife is a WAY bigger, kinder, more wonderful person than I am. You would be missing some teeth, and be homeless.

This is a joke, right? A married man was not man enough to tell some skank to get off his lap?

First off, you have poor taste in friends if you consort with people who act like that and secondly, you aren't man enough to tell some skank to get off your lap? Are you serious? That has nothing to do with "extraordinary precautions" but with simple common decency. Married men don't let women sit on their laps. You have to be told this?

And I wonder why your wife didn't slap that ho right off your lap and then smack you? If you didn't have the balls to slap that ho off your lap, why didn't she?

It sounds to me like you run with a rather BAWDY, uncivilized crowd.

So "the useful part"

yes I was pathetic and nieve enough to allow that to happen and the more I re-live it the more thoroughly ashamed I am of allowing this to happen at all. I am a wimp and I know this must change in order to salvage and to secure the future of my marriage.


And now the "not so useful part":



Excuse me ML but what exactly do you mean? Our friends are good people and if you read my wifes thread she feels exactly the same. The two girls that joined us at the end of the evening were not anything to do with the group so please do not be so brash as to label our group as such. Also our friends were horrified when they learned of my behaviour too.

Secondly my wife acted with dignity and as a woman not a cavewoman. Something that she is proud of. If you believe differently that issue is with her and not me so ill not comment further.

This really intrigued me AM and triggered an insightful conversation with my wife. I was interested as to what I was or wasnt doing, see the obvious things I didnt do, I didnt make any eye contact, didnt smile, didnt even talk to her so I figured I must be missing something. My wife believes that this girl was looking at me alot from the moment she arrived. We believe that because I see myself so lowly that I literally believe (very nievely) that something like this situation could happen to me. This is something I now must REALLY work on and fast. I can raise my awareness of possible threats and need to be aware it can come from nothing too. I also need to have a plan for ever eventually. So if someone chats to me - i know instantly what to say/do/act. If someones touches me - the same etc..

So I will get a plan in my head in terms of how I will act in future and then sit down with my wife and ensure this meets her needs too.


I am a little concerned how you brush over this AM, these issues are suffered by millions around the world in every culture and country, although more prominent in US and UK due to society and whats considered sociely acceptable. People also regularly commit suicide due to this issue. However im only saying that to raise awareness im nowhere near that bad ok. I get by in life most of the time with no/little issues. However when the BIG moments come along like it did I wimp out and cause my wife more pain. If everybody just need act better there would be no need for therapists and the world would be a happier place.

It is so simple, you stand up for your wife and use the boundaries you should have with any woman, you should never accept this kind of behavior from any woman and it is up to you to stop it and have backbone enough even in a crowed room to not let this or anything like this happen whether your wife is there or not......
It was simple and you were a coward and so disrespectful to your wife, I would have been so embarrassed and hurt as well......you are a grown man, grown men do what is right that is what respect is........
I agree how do you even go to places that has women who act like skanks......you either act like a man of integrity or you will aways hurt the woman you claim to love.......is that the plan, or are you going to have backbone for what is right from now on......

Thank you, L2G, for the hilarious story and accompanying attempt to portray yourself as anything but a scuzz-ball!

Let's put this into a different prism and see what it projects, okay? Instead of a hot single skank, suppose your lap-dancer were a 180lb male dock-worker with body-odor issues. Or how about a well-mascaraed transvestite homosexual prostitute. Exactly how long would you in either case have sat there (agonizing!) while trying to grope your wife as camouflage?

You're a disgrace, several times over:
1) Letting it happen and continue.
2) Expecting your BW to "understand".
3) Trying to garner sympathy/support here.

Now excuse me while I find your BW's thread to tell her how sorry I am that you're such a loser.

BTW:

I am a wimp and I know this must change in order to salvage and to secure the future of my marriage.

translates to:

I am a horn-dog and I know this must be papered-over in order to trick my wife into not dissolving our marriage.

Good luck with that!

That is why I am here Jess.... for help....

You know what, I dont care how sad this is but im not sure it would be any different. My issue is with confrontation whether female/male, in person, on telehpone etc... there are NO exceptions. My wife is always mad when someone cold calls the house and she shouts and threatens them with court action and yet I sit and listen and then eventually say goodbye 5-10mins later.

Im sorry that people here can be so black and white and into stereotypes but you know what; ill keep being honest no matter how sad and pathetic I am so you might as well just try and engage me as armymama has. Thanks to her insightful posts she has triggered some very good conversations between my wife and I today while a post like yours is wasteful and your attempt to shame me didnt work as im shaming myself by being honest and bringing my cowardly and wimpish behaviour to a public forum.


If you say so ill leave that to my wife who knows me to decide thanks.

Learning2grow,

Do you really want to be a "former" wayward husband?

What can you do to protect your BW in the future?

How can you tighten up your boundaries?

I read your post and I see that a woman in a bar sat on your lap, the lap of a married man. So I question your ability to choose "friends" and the environment in which you hang. You were with these people after all. Maybe the lesson of the day is not hang out in bars. So yes, I will label the entire group since they are the ones who invited this skank to sit with you.

I thought it was amusing that YOU think you are in a position to decide to what is or isn't "useful." How does someone with the poor judgement to allow a woman to sit on his lap have the judgement to decide what is or isn't useful? He doesnt'.

The fact is that is you didn't make a mistake, you just have tragically poor boundaries around women after all this time.

make sure you prove it every day, do things on your own to prove to her that your boundaries are in place and in working order, do things without asking, think ahead with any situation and let your wife know what your plan will be from now on and what she can expect, you do that don't wait to be told, don't wait until a situation comes up, have a plan tell your wife what you plan will be let her tweak the plan if she thinks something else will work better, prove to her that she is worth it and you make sure the backbone kicks in when it should, you keep letting her down and you will hurt her over and over again and eventually lose her or destroy your marriage for a pointless reason

This is complete crap.

Your BW should be very alarmed, if she is not already, about the status of your "recovery". You are very dangerous and not serious about following EPs.

Actually there is very little need in the world for "therapists." And there certainly isn't a place for therapists in the matter of "self esteem." People have self esteem when they act in esteemable ways. Its really that simple. No one needs to go to a "therapist" to understand that simple truth. Using your low "self esteem" as an excuse for poor, unmanly behavior is a failure to take accountability for your actions. So lets not play the self esteem card. If you want to have high self esteem then start acting in ways you can esteem.

Guess who is the last person on this thread qualified to talk about "dignity," my friend? You, a married man, allowed a skank to sit on your lap right in front of your wife. AND DID NOTHING ABOUT IT. You disrespected her in the worst possible way. She had every right to slap that skank so hard that her future grandchildren would feel it. As any dignified woman would do in the face of such agregious disrespect.

If your wife did slap her off your lap, as most women would do, that would reflect badly *ON YOU*, the man who put her in that position in the first place.

If you had any dignity at all, you would not have allowed your wife to be treated so disgracefully in your presence. HOW DARE YOU?

Sure there is an exception, a confrontation with your BW.

So really what you mean is: If I have to choose between upsetting a skank or my BW, I will choose my BW.

According to your wife's signature, it took about 3 years to go from DD to active recovery. It seems it took years just to bring you to the point of considering recovery.

Now this, which has brought you back to square 1. If you are incapable of dealing with situations that humiliates your wife and brings your back to square 1, due to self esteem or whatever issues you claim, then you are not recovered as you think. End of.

Perhaps at square 1, you should consider the EP of no alcohol and no socializing with other females. As you clearly cannot handle yourself in such a situation.

If I have to choose between upsetting a skank or my BW, I will choose my BW.

Beat me to it, SQ!

But then again, I've been busy tracking down transvestite homosexual prostitutes in his town to see how long L2G will provide a comfortable, welcoming, seat on his lap, as he said he would!

Actually, reading her thread fully through, she would be better of considering plan B... at a minimum. You are not recovered and hopefully she gathers the strength to place real boundaries and protect herself.

You, 3 years into 'recovery', still consider your pride and the feelings of a drunk strange female to be more important than the humiliation of your wife. Dangerous stuff.

DITTO. After all these affairs, and going 3 years with NO RECOVERY and nothing has changed? What is there to save?

Oh Brainhurts without a doubt, the last three months have been the best of our entire marriage. When we first got together of course it was amazing but we were relying on naturally metting each others needs etc and we were young enough for that to have been easy. But these last three months have been perfect. We have grown closer and closer and my wife was feeling more confident in herself than she had been fir ages.

Now I have done this we are back to square one and beyond but that doesnt stop me for a second to want to start again and start that road once again but this time without the possibility of me doing this again.

I am re-acquinting myself with my boundary list as to be honest its quite a while since I read it. I will alter anything that I can to tighten up any grey areas following this latest incident and then read them everyday until im confident I have learnt and memorised them and am ready to properly live them.

Off to bed now its 1am here, ill address the other posts and my plans to move forward first thing in the morning.

Hi L2G,

I'm glad to see you're posting on the forum.

Your current situation is not as bad as you might think.

Hopefully it will help you prepare for the occasion when you are in the grocery store with your wife and one of your OW's appear out of nowhere and she feels the urge to start a conversation with you, right there in front of your wife!

What will you do?

Learning,

What role, if any, did alcohol play in the incident of the other night? Do you have different boundaries with women when drinking?

AM

This was edited this morning for those that might not realize as its not newest post

In was a typical pub/bar found in every city around the world with all ages socialising, drinking different quantities of alcoholic and no-alcoholic drinks. Yes it was a busy evening (saturday) which tends to be for younger people partying I wont deny that, but it was my only day of work around my birthday and my wife and I had no issues with the day or location of the night out.

I will only stress once again that our friends are very good people and yes one of them brought the skank into our group, but I cant blame them for not perfectly screening them first and I wont just suddenly cut off the few single friends I have just because of my actions. If my boundaries and strength of character were appropriate this would never have got as far as it did and no issues regarding friends etc would have arisen so lets focus on that please. If you wish to mention my friends again ill not post about it again. I guarentee if I read my wifes thread (I never do) she will have the same support towards our decent friends too.

Jess this was a good post thank you. I have a copy of my boundaries in my hand and to be honest its been to long. Ill go through it and address anything that needs tightening up or maybe just adding in altogether. Then I will read it everyday this week until I memorise the whole list.

I like the idea of being pre-emptive and as discussed with AM earlier in this thread I will set myself up with a body armour of rebuffs for any possible situation both seen and unseen. When speaking to my wife she said that she already knows exactly how she would deal with x,y,z happening, and I realised I dont have that. I assume it wont happen to me and im aware that MB101 is people who dont think it will happen to them end up the wayward everytime so ill got on that asap.

Ok sorry I got it wrong ill rename it self confidence then. Its frustrating as you know what im describing and yet you are knit picking to make me look bad. I do that on my own thanks quite well. Yes I have low self esteem too but ill accept what you say on that matter, yes if I was a better person im sure that would correct itself.

Its obvious I didnt mean esteem now you have responded as people dont commit suicide over esteem. I dont really the need to carry this on but if you post again, ill respond accordingly.

If we waited till I sorted my own issues out the marriage would be left to die. In the earlier days after d-day I tried to explain to my wife that I needed to sort myself out before I could help her. I tried hypnotherapy and counciling. But it was so unfair to leave her to heal herself and if you read her thread you will see that she practicely completely self healed from d-day.

So no personally im not recovered to fully protect my marriage which is why I need the EP's etc to keep in check what im not able to control myself due to my own personal issues. However well I might do most of the time, when the big situations come along like saturday when a huge issue like confrontation comes along I didnt deal with it and now as you know I am here. As stated to a couple of people before today im working on tightening my boundaries and learning them to carry with me.


My wife and I did discuss this but to be honest she absolutely loved the evening before this happened and we go out like this maybe once a year. I believe for one or at least very few situations like this a year my boundaries should be able to protect us rather than removing one of the very very few fun times we have together.

We do discuss alcohol as on here is very much frowned upon. A boundary of mine to not to drink alcohol away from my wife as it reminds her of the affair. I have repeatly asked her about in her company and shes is more than happy to be normal with it. If I drink 1 unit of alcohol a month or two its a lot for me and same for my wife so please realise we drink hardly anything at all.

Go for it, ill even find one for you if you wish. Id love to see an MB stereotype go down the pan

Anyway I told myself I would avoid the sarcasm and post sensibly from now on as it helps me deflect but some things are too silly to miss. Ill not post again about this.....

Hello,

You are right in terms of I realise I must prepare myself for all future situations, simply believing this cant happen to me is bull**** and exactly what landed me in all this in the first place. I am so guilty of being nieve and my wife has always commented on this. Its just pathetic that it takes a huge situation like this to make me listen.

Hi AM,

I dont believe the drinking had much effect on my behaviour, in fact its a shame the alcohol didnt make me let down my barriers and just be plain rude and deal with the skank, that would have been great. I do however consider the fact that the alcohol may have mean I wasnt at all aware of my surroundings. Maybe if I wasnt drinking I may have noticed her looking at me as my wife says she was. Maybe id have been more aware as she got up and walked around the table. So yes things could have turned out differently but I think all in all whatever the situation with alcohol I still should have been able to deal with this. I wasnt unconscious and was lucid enough to be aware it was upsetting my wife I was just to pathetic to deal with it appropriately.

I have a boundary to not drink away from my wife in any company male or female. We have dsicussed situations of when we are drinking together and have never felt the need to change this. I will discuss with my wife again as to be honest I drink so little I wouldnt really mind quitting alcohol outside of our house leaving just the rare relaxing beer at home once a month or so.

ok I'm off for a while as I want to focus on something concrete...my boundary list....

Just wanted to pop in and tell you that my FWH had a big problem for years with sloppy boundaries around women, which allowed him to make some pretty poor decisions. The problem is that his sloppy boundaries became a habit that persisted for years.

Even after he committed to recovery and agreed to a list of Extraordinary Precautions, those habits were still ingrained. He was so used to calling women a little term of endearment or being overly enthusiastic in his praise, even after EPs were instituted, that I feared we would never truly recover, because those habits would be so hard to overcome.

After he called a woman, a work colleague, a term of endearment in an email, I called him on it. First, though, I went into Total Defense Mode--researched airline tickets and made a plan to flee while I was still "intact." Then my cooler head prevailed, and we discussed the problem I had with what he had said in his email. We then added to his EPs--no terms of endearment, ever. Well, except for relatives, like our daughter, grandchildren, his sister.

I thought that listing one of the EPs as "only professional conversations with women" would have included "no terms of endearment," but he hadn't seen it the same way. So we had to do more tightening up and explaining during our first year of post D-Day.

We had to practice his EPs under real-life situations and make sure they became a habit, a reflex. He always used to allow women to stand very close to him, even when I was present. I told him that his EPs needed to include a good space between him and the opposite sex. It took a while for this to become a habit, but it's finally happening. He will move away automatically now if woman comes very close.

When your situation arose, I brought it up to him and we decided upon a scenario for just in case. We do that with many of the situations on the forums or some that I just think up. "What would you do if....?"

Setting up scenarios ahead of time and coming up with a plan might be very helpful for you and your W until the new habits become very ingrained.

I was actually expecting you to share what steps you plan to take in the event that it actually occurs.

Are you willing to list them out?

Learning,

I agree with the comments about habits. And let me expand on some of the other things I was saying about self esteem/self confidence or whatever you want to call it. Much of what we do is habit. Habits can be changed though. Dr. Harley uses the basic example of crossing one's arms. Most people like to do it one way. But if they are thinking about it, they can cross their arms the other way. It feels funny at first, but the more the person does it, the less funny it feels. After a period of time, it is habit. It is the same for any behavior. Once you are aware of a behavior, you can think about it and change it. Longwayfromhome gives some good examples. How does this tie to self esteem?

Remember when I posted that if you behave in an admirable way, positive feelings about yourself would follow? Dr. Harley references a study done in the 1950's by a research psychologist. In this study, it was found that it is easier to change behavior than attitude. Change the behavior and then the attitude will change. Often, on MB, it is summerized as "Feelings follow actions". Does this make sense?

Using bad feelings as a reason for behavior is an excuse. And dwelling on past negativity with therapists isn't helpful. Talking about your childhood or how you felt after kids picked on you at school, etc. doesn't help you deal with the trashy drunk that plunks her behind on your hand. If you think about what you are doing, you can change the way you habitually respond.

Reviewing the EPs is a good start. Tightening up on them is better. You have a long list of them, mostly don'ts. Think about this suggestion. Your number one EP could be, "I will always do whatever is necessary to care and protect my wife, the most important person in my life". From there, everything else follows.

BTW, Melodylane doesn't nitpick and if you find her posts disturbing, then it is probably something you should think about more. When someone gets upset about a post, it is usually because it hits too close to home.

AM

Your post was encouraging to me. I dont know if my wife would take part in that activity or though I would like to; therefore I will put it too her.

People assume that everyone acts the same black and white way and to shout at you will mean you should just see the light and jump in line with no problems; so to see that you worked with your FWH on his level and then he was able to naturally make the changes; therefore benefiting you; is great.

He was able to implement changes in real life and understand mistakes an naturally find his path to meet the marital needs. This is great and I'm thinking of ways I can build up the same way. Silly example as I've already used it in this thread. I should practice becoming more assertive on the telephone without worrying about the cold callers feelings (they will survive). This is a small start but once I start to realise that the world won't end if I stand up for myself or my wife the easier the next time and the bigger situations will get; also becoming natural with it to.

Learning,

Are you saying that all of your many affairs occurred because sleazy women came onto you and you weren't assertive enough to tell them no? Do you realize how silly your previous post sounds?

AM

The changes my H made were not at all "natural;" he had to work hard at learning and implementing the EPs. He knew, and I knew, that if these EPs were not instituted and followed very strictly, I would not stay for more.

He had to get completely on board, and quickly. I had, and still have, my escape plan. He knows MB so well now that when we watch movies, he will comment on an MB "infraction."

There were a few times when H returned home early, and I was out doing errands; he thought in a panic that I had left him. He said he would race upstairs and check my closet. That's how serious we are about tightening up the EPs so there is not one crack left.

And the great thing is that it doesn't just benefit me, the betrayed spouse. He finally realized what an a##h044 he was all those years. He is emphatic now, for the first time in our marriage, that he never wants to be "that kind of person" again. He hates what he once was. He wants to become a really decent and good husband, so that one day, I will be able to say I'm glad we stayed married. These are his words. The better he has learned to act in our marriage, the better he actually feels about himself. He never got that connection before.

He had to get to the point where he understood that what he got from the attention of other women was nothing but silly flattery. Those OWs would destroy his life as he knew it and give him a much lesser woman in return. They would like him just as he was, so there would never be a need for him to improve his character.

Have you two signed up for MB Online? It's a really good program and helped us immensely to stay on track. If you can't afford the Online program, then at least go through the LB and HNHN books together, and do the workbook.

The woman that sat on your lap had nothing to do with, "exactly what landed me in all this in the first place".

Your un-willingness to PROTECT your wife, is, 100%, the real culprit.....

It was YOU, not this woman that sat on your lap.....

Do you see this yet?

It's why your wife left and went home!
It was her disgust with YOU!





Again; Your un-willingness to PROTECT your wife, is, 100%, the real culprit..... NOT NAIVETY

You have been un-willing to change the behaviors that leave your wife and your marriage vulnerable....

Do you see this??



Again; Your un-willingness to PROTECT your wife, is, 100%, the real culprit.....

Your wife may appreciate that you listen, BUT,

Are you taking the ACTIONS necessary to PROTECT your wife and your marriage??

The only thing that's pathetic, is doing the same things that hurt your wife and marriage, over and over again, expecting a different result.

Doing something different will lead to different results. A.M. is trying to help you, please listen and take action, OK!


ON A DIFFERENT NOTE;
Please reply to our questions in their entirety. Frequently you are summarizing our posts, which is very dismissive. I'm certain this is a habit of yours in real life as well. Most waywawrds have been very good con artists and very smooth talkers their entire lives. You'd bode well for yourself to just post with sincerity and not try to make excuses or try to cover your a$$. We are looking for the actions you are taking and need to know details in order to help guide you. Your wife isn't going to leave you for being radically honest with us, however, she will lose more and more love for you if you hide truths and talk in circles that are dismissive. OK!

With that in mind, I'm very glad you are still posting.

Maybe the reason your 'self esteem' is so low is, you think of yourself - and portray yourself - as a sniveling, weak, sissy flower boy who would rather spew a bunch of oh-woe-is-poor-pitiful-you psycho-babble instead nutting up and calling things what they are.

Grow up, man up, and live up to your responsibilities as your wife's husband, or get out of her way so someone interested in actually doing the job can get it done.

...you think of yourself...as a sniveling, weak, sissy flower boy who would rather spew a bunch of oh-woe-is-poor-pitiful-you psycho-babble instead nutting up and calling things what they are. Grow up, man up, and live up to your responsibilities as your wife's husband, or get out of her way so someone interested in actually doing the job can get it done.

Whoa! If L2G got all riled about my comment, I'll enjoy reading the answer to this one!

I would recommend separating yourself from single friends, and tomcats. If this runs you off, you NEED to be run off, sir. How dare you put your wife through hell and refuse to give up a few friends because of it. If you two want to spend time at pubs, I am all for that, but it should NOT be with single people. Replace them with faithful-minded married friends, they are just as fun and don't draw whores to the table.

I realize you don't see it this way, but believe me, from this side it totally looks like you are choosing your chums over your wife and children.

Real friends (yes, YOUR real friends) would have stood up to you about your horrible behaviour when your wife ran out in humiliation.

Ok to put an end to the whole self esteem/confidence issue ill say this. I dont believe these issues can be removed by simply acting and being a better person BUT I do believe I can habitually change so that my actions and habits protrait that of a confidence person; i.e the ability to push the skank ho off and shout at her. It would appear confident and of course most importantly protect the marriage even if inside it scares the **** out of me.

I had a good chat with my wife about this and basically said that my mindset needs to be - even if I upset everyone in the world and the whole world hates me as long as I can get home safely with my wife and we are strong and she still loves me I'll thats all that REALLLY matters.

So NO more excuses using confidence etc... Ill work on that by starting with the example of the cold callers so ican see their world wont end when I cut them off. Then Ill imagine scenarios and how I will handle them. Then ill focus on creating a habit of - protect my wife at all costs. I should practice this daily at every opportunity to insall it as a habit. I will seek my wifes input as to how I behaved/handled a situation to fine tune and learn what she and the marriage needs of me from now on.


ah ok we never thought about using anything so vast and positive to be honest. As you say most of my EP's are dont's. I agree that its a nice start point and then I can use the donts to tighten and protect that inital statement.

I hope to come back very soon with an altered EP list.

Sorry I didnt explain myself very well, by natural I didnt mean without effort, god I know its not easy and must be worked at. I meant to say that I liked your system as it involved "on the job training" if you like. Its hard to be told something on MB and be expected to run into the open world and just implement it. But by effectively managing the change closely and ingraining it into your husband I can see the benefits of it. Of course it like having a coach or fitness instructor ensuring you dont stray from the path. OK this cant always be fair on the betrayed person to have to give even more of themselves and their time considering they are normally the hurt party but they can directly see the benefits in front of their eyes rather than waiting for a miracle when a scenario pops up and then being frustrated when it doesnt arise (not refering to me just a general statement)


ok me not mentioning confidence lasted one post lol

I started a conversation last night about this issue; as for the past 3 months ive been closest thing to the perfect husband and dad that ive ever been (acknowlegded by wife). I have definitely felt better about my behaviour and I have felt like a better person for this period. So I can understand what everyone is saying regarding acting better and feeling better and the link involved.

What it didnt effect was how I felt about myself, i.e the fact that I havent left the house in years without wearing my baseball cap even to put the rubbish out. Its my safety item and have a tantrum should I lose it. Its this lack of confidence that has stopped me from EVER creating a scene in public or hurting anyones feelings including people that blatently deserve it. Forget skank start small, when shopping we regualarly see people without kids parking in the parents spaces at supermarkets, my wife has enough and tell them off and makes them feel bad about their actions, they may not move but she hopes they might think twice about doing it again. I wouldnt dare speak up and just scuttle on my way to get on with the shop asap; even feeling awkward because of my wifes public outburst.

However just to recap before I get squashed, I realise this cant be used as an excuse for not protecting my wife and as I answered to AM above, I must realise even if I upset the world as long as MY WORLD (wife) is happy and feels loved and protected, who cares right?


Unfortunately we really cant afford the online program at the moment. We have struggled to ensure we had some phone couciling with Steve after d-day but that was it.

We already own 'HNHN for parents' and 'surviving an affair'. We have covered the material in both but we have certain parts of HNHN we both want to sit down and recover to ensure we understand and impletment correctly.

We dont have the LB book or the workbook. Maybe we should look at picking up the workbook to keep us on track.

I wholeheartidly agree with these three statements, I cant control other peoples behaviour but I can control how I deal with it and how I choose to protect my wife. At the moment I choose to do nothing and damage limitate later which is disgusting and I accept that to save my marriage this must change. Time to get a move on...


I started a conversation with my wife as she said the same thing and agreed with your comment. I didnt quite see what I was doing wrong. When someone here asks me something im reading it for the first time and have probably never thought about it ever before, so I acknowledge the post by answering ill do that and report back. Apparently this isnt whats needed and I should be answering with an direct response. Im happy to do this in future although might mean I dont respond as quickly as Ill have to come to my answer before posting anything. I sincerely thought acknowlegding the posts was polite and never intented to annoy anyone. Ill answer more directly from now on....

Hi CWMI,

We go out very very rarey and even then its usually to a safer environment such as cinema together or a meal. Its been years since we have been to such a public place. However what happened happened to obviously needs to be dealt with. My wife and I stand united on the friend front. The majority of our friends are safe and either married or in loving relationships. Only 2 of our friends are still single. One of which ive known for 25 years and hes been a friend of my wife and the family for the full 12 years we have been together. He is godchild to all 4 of our kids and has always been around. We have had falling outs over my behaviour in the past and he has supported my wife and cut me off before. The other one on that evening we hadnt seen for 8 years, although he was the one who was chatting to the single girls so my wife and I are both aware of his danger should we ever see him again we both know how we will need to act.

I remember reading this from the next post I think so ill answer it here. On the night in question no one actually noticed my wifes exit as she excused herself to the toilet. They were all drinking to and no one was aware of what I/skank had done or my wifes pain so I wont blame them for not supporting my wife and for not standing up against me.

Again I started a conversation with my wife regarding friends awareness of our issues. They were all exposed to around d-day so theres no issue there. I mean in terms of what happened in this situation for example was my wife left and went home and then I followed and we chatted for hours. My friends kept calling me as they were worried and wondered where I had gone and I didnt excuse myself from the group and just walked out in a panic over my wife. I texted them a hour of so after the incident just to let them know im ok and back at home along with my wife; also they would stop calling when im trying to engage with my wife in conversation.

My wife was then angry that I hadnt made them aware that I had messed up and hurt my wife and that is why we both left. I have never aired our dirty laundry and to be honest neither has anyone ive ever known so I dont see this as unusual and honestly I felt its perfectly normal. However she felt that I had covered up my bad beaviour and also that she would be blamed, as she left and then I left to find her; so our friends would all assume she was the party-pooper and not me. I can understand this point and to be honest the next morning she spoke to a member of the group and indeed he had assumed just that so point beautifully proved. Im willing to change my behaviour regarding this immediately...

edit: forgot to answer the getting new friends part:

Just to be completely honest, this is unlikely as my wife doesnt work and I work alone. We arent part of a church as most people on MB are. Yes we could find local parent groups etc but we wont as we simply dont have time. We are massively busy and any spare time is of course used for the 15hours UA time. Im sorry if this sounds negative and closed but im being honest with you reagrding this ok.


A question for this forum if you dont mind...

its now 5 days since this incident, should I talk or message the friend that asked about that night - to correct what they believe or is it weird now and should be adhered to solidly in future. I know this forum is all for uncomfortable exposure so im guessing the answer will be yes but im just thinking that to be honest they wont care one bit who left first and why; and my contacting them now could be strange and they will probably also believe my wife is behind it as in the past ive had to be unwillingly pushed into everything ive done regarding exposure etc and they know that. So would it in fact make things even worse for my wife? Or am I looking for excuses not to do it?

Please stop and think honestly about this question and dont just think yay embarass the wayward....

Please see my first reply to CWMI, I knew these comments were lurking somewhere.....

Quick personal update:

I announced to my wife I have decided not to drink alcohol at all outside of the house (please remember even inside I drink maybe 1 unit every 1/2 months but its nice to relax sometimes in a safe environment). She wasnt particularly happy with this and thought it was unecessary. I spoke to her regarding AM question about whether the alcohol may or not have made a difference that night and have decdied that the possilblity made it worthwhile changing. Also by me being the odd one out it maybe helps my friends (including the single ones) to understand my issues as to why im doing it because believe me they will ask, and as per last post, I will now tell them and make them aware.

Also part of my personal confidence issue is I hate to stand out in a crowd whether it be friends or strangers so this will force me to start getting over myself and be the odd one out who people think strange and ask questions about.

After all that I missed your initial post, was just checking back and found it....

Ok so we are shopping and OW tries to start conversation:

1. Do I have a gun?? if yes see point 2, if not move to point 3
2. Call her a slut and home wrecking w***e then kill her while laughing hysterically.
3. Hold hands with my wife the entire time
4. Tell her that I never want to see her fugly face ever again and that if she doesnt respect the NC I will call the police
5. Tell her im married to the most amazing person ive ever met and that she was the biggest mistake of my life, although it made us stronger so Im lucky I chose such a pathetic disgusting skank to show me the light
6. Tell her to rot in hell and leave with my wife our heads held high

Love Busters is a must-have. Dr. Harley prescribed that book for us first. It goes through each love buster, explaining why it is destructive to the marriage relationship and how to stop it.

The workbook is full of helpful and detailed questionnaires for each love buster and the emotional needs, as well as worksheets for UA time and more.

We found it most useful to read the books aloud together. We'd make a time for it most evenings, setting aside a half hour or so, read a portion of a chapter and discuss it.

I have only stayed with my H because of his hard work to stop all his previous love busters and because he's so willing now to meet my emotional needs, in a way he has never done before.

His EPs with women took some tweaking, because his habits were so ingrained that he apparently didn't see them for what they were: an over-familiarity with women. He thought it was safe if he didn't find them attractive, but I wanted the habits to stop completely, with ALL women, regardless of age or attractiveness. I wanted it to become his second nature to protect our marriage.

The rest of the EPs have been followed closely: I have all his passwords and he knows I check when I want to. I don't tell him when I do, and I never feel guilty about checking. His computer at home doesn't have a password, and I will go into it periodically. We spend all our free time together and spend no nights apart.

One of the most important things we have done is learn the POJA, which we now believe is the foundation of a good marriage, along with Radical Honesty.

Are you meeting your wife's ENs very well? You should become an expert in this. Have you eliminated all Love Busters? Doing this will prevent you from losing Love Units with your wife.

My H is in the habit of keeping women at arm's length now. He doesn't even like it much when women from our church insist on giving him hugs. So someone plopping onto his lap would probably (hopefully) make him stand up immediately in shock.

Yes we read the books aloud to each other too and then the discussion from it were very useful. I have heard a lot about the workbook and so we'll look into picking this up.


Yes we fully implement MB finally after I resisted no end. We POJA, stick to UA time, I very rarely LB, And the last 3 months were the best of our marriage for probably 6-7 years. I was meeting my wife's EN's and avoiding LB. she had my full support and I impoved in every way possible. She has every password and has installed keyloggers. We never spend a night apart and my work is completely tracked via satelittle and my log sheet. Which is why this incident has blown us both out of the water.

Until 3 months ago I was a runner, so every time things got tough I was ready to ditch the marriage, I'm thoroughly ashamed to say it but now I'm also proud I've completely turned that attitude around. This has been really tough for us both and before I would have been getting ready to run by now, however I'm already starting rebuilding and I'm feeling confident. I'm apologising and showing her I still love her, Ive stopped messing about here and am now just being honest and looking to achieve my target of being the great husband I have only ever dreamt of being.

My wife and I are working through the boundary list and should have that nailed down at which point I'll print a copy and keep it with me. I will read it daily until I am able to recite and live the boundaries as gospel. I have given up drinking alcohol outside of the house and am starting to get overt myself with being to scared of life to protect my wife. I'm starting small with the cold calls as I mentioned earlier and already done one before work. It was an instant improvement although still a long way to go, but I'm taking all positives I can for now.

Apologises if ive missed anything but I'm responding from my mobile in between jobs.

LTG, here's a little exercise for you that might just give you a visual as to how you should react if a situation like this should ever happen again.

Sit in a chair wearing only your boxers/briefs. Since it's dangerous to use a grenade, have your wife lob a steaming hot potato wrapped in foil (as in straight out of the oven) onto your lap. Your reaction time to that hot potato/grenade should be the same as your reaction time to that woman sitting in your lap. She was a hot potato/grenade with the potential of burning you badly and blowing up your marriage... and she did... and it did because you didn't react to the danger.

Next time... you'll see that hot potato/grenade coming and jump so fast it won't stand a chance of making contact.

Get it now? A loose disrespectful other woman who thinks nothing of sitting in a married man's lap = hot potato/grenade.

L2G,

Wow! All I wanted to do is traumatize you with a transvestite homosexual hooker! Pm wants your spouse to risk scalding your "boys"!

You should have been more amenable to MY initiative.

I've had "the op" so my boys are useless anyway but yes I'd still sooner take on the trannie

Yes the imagery of that made me understand what is required. Simple example but trust me I know my reaction to grenade or potato and now my reaction to skanks must be just as certain

OK, emmm, seriously??

You just demonstrated that you are afraid to rock the boat in public
You can't handle public confrontations that could make you look bad
You don't do well under pressure
You protect other peoples feelings ahead of your wifes
ETC
ETC
ETC

You can tell me you hate ALL your OW's all you want.....
But I ain't buyin' the six step outline you just gave. Especially with what you just demonstrated in the pub recently.


Maybe you can give a better, more realistic, drama free plan for what you'll be doing if/when a chance run in with one of your OW's occurs.



ON A DIFFERENT NOTE;


Do you realize that YOU were the slut and home wrecking w***e ?????

I absolutely realise that what Ive proposed it extreme for me, but to be honest it needs to be. Ive been soft and whimpy all my life and now im working on stepping over my personal feelings to protect my wife. If this scenario happened and I just said: I told you I wanted NC, dont ever bother me again, I love my wife and then walked off; simply wouldnt be enough for my wife or me.

I am aiming high because otherwise ill never change so believe it or not im leaving the list as it is...


ummmm yes, I tried to argue in my head for a second to find a loophole but yes you are right. I rightfully hang my head in shame but im also determined to be the man my wife wants and needs in her life.

I wasn't interested in shaming you. My goal was to help you see you were not a victim in any of this. And to allow you to accept the responsibility for what happened to your marriage rather than blaming any of these OW's.

L2G, your post is shocking for me to read, because I don't go to places where this sort of thing happens.

I think that should be one of your extraordinary precautions: don't go to bars, and don't go out with single friends.

The whole point of an extraordinary precaution is to go the extra mile to make sure you don't even get into a bad situation.

Then you will not have to worry about what to do when the situation arises, because your EP prevents it from even arising.

So you're telling me these are reasonable steps??




Allow me to summarize;

1) I'd get a gun and shoot her. (Fantasy) Not realistic!
2) In the middle of a public place, you'd insult and harass her while laughing. (Fantasy) Guess who goes to jail? YOU!
3) But wait, You'll be rubbing you wife's back the whole time, I mean holding her hand. (Sarcasm on my part) You did that in the pub, and it didn't help much...
4 In the middle of a public place, you'd insult and harass her while laughing. Threaten to call the police if she goes to the store?? (AGAIN - Fantasy) Except this fantasy has you calling the police. Again, Guess who goes to jail? YOU!
5) Compliment your wife!
Insult OW again!
Then Thank OW - She helped you see the light!
Let me know how this one works for you, as I'm sure your wife will be in another taxi after that one!
6) Take pride in calling her names again! (Fantasy land) Will you hold yours high while being escorted out by the police or security guards for verbally accosting a store patron?



Can you see all the flaws in this 6 step nightmare?

Are you willing to try it again?

Look, this stuff ain't easy.... It requires real, thought out steps. Not the BS you just listed out, OK!

It's WORK! And it's WORK! Did I mention it requires a lot of WORK to succeed? But the harvest is bountiful and worth the effort.

L2G, HerPapaBear is exactly right. What you have listed is pure drama and fantasy, not reality. Drama will not win your wife back. It's going to take real work and real change.

Stating it extra dramatically does not make additional deposits in her Love Bank.

I know what you were getting at, its ok. Post d-day my wife pushed me to project all my anger as well as hers onto the OW, probably as she couldnt stand to believe that her huband could be capable of hurting her in such a disgusting way and it was safer to blame the OW. I now naturally have a disgust for the other woman and this is important for my wife as it reminds me of what I have done so as not to reaffend.

Now whenever the OW comes up in conversation I cant talk about her without using very choice names for her. Thats also where the focus you mention comes from. I have however taken responsibilty for the A now but your question was specifically about seeing the OW.

Hi Markos,

This is sad but also true. Not sad for me as I really dont mind about the pubs and bars etc but my wife is being made to suffer for my actions again and again. We go out so rarely as stated previously that to relax with friends in a bar was a great idea. The night was perfect until my disgusting act....

Having said that, despite the initial anger and resentment from my wife, hopefully having a stronger marriage will be worthwhile.

Ok look points one and two were meant to be a little funny, sorry about that, I dont and wont even own a gun plus I work for the Ministry of Justice in the UK so Im well aware of consequences of those actions.

As I posted in a post above this one, my anger towards other woman was originally manufactured when I was wayward after the A, my wife wanted an angry response to OW to show I hated her and understood what she had done to our marriage; rather than accepting what I HAD DONE to it. In time this became a natural feeling of my own and now cannot hear the OW mentioned without cussing and calling her names. However I do accept responsibility for the A regardless of OW actions, same as the latest night out. If I had strong and robust boundaries neither of these skanks would have got anywhere near my marriage in the first place.

So back to the ficticous confrontation:

1. I would tell her that I meant the no contact and that she must leave us alone
2. I would hold my wifes hand regardless of latest incident as it shows the skank togetherness.
3. I would tell her I meant what the NC letter said and that she was the biggest mistake of my life
4. That my wife and I are stronger than ever
5. That my wife is the love of my life and always will be
6. Tell her I never want to see her again and leave with my arm around my wonderful wife

I assume, working for the Ministry of Justice, you make enough money to find a way to purchase Dr. Harley's online Program.

This would be a wise investment for your marriage. You may not recognise it, but your marriage is on life support and in need of the specialized equiptment Dr. H can bring. Working out of books alone is not enough, given the amount of damage you've done combined with the length of time you've allowed it to occur.

It sounds like you totally missed what I said: don't go to bars, and this will never happen again. Simple as that.

Markos I think i explained badly what I meant. I said ok, i will do that because I see its a sensible move but I said my wife will be angry taking away another fun thing for her to do. But the premise of a better and strong marriage should prevail..

At the moment its impossible as my wife hasnt worked since A. My wage is barely scrapping us through month by month and we have to budget every single food shop and every single bill. She is starting a business venture in the next month and then yes we hope to see some free capital which can of course be invested where needed but this will take a further couple of months. Right now we are panicing everyday as march and april have all 4 kids birthdays as well as mine and my dads plus 2 friends. Plus wifes best friend is getting married. So its a day worry financially right now. But we are already re-reading parts of HNHN that we both want to revisit and will look into picking up the work book asap....

I think you have it in you to become fun enough that your wife will enjoy being with you in plenty of places besides bars. There are millions of fun things to do in life. Restricting yourself from some that are dangerous or unhealthy will help prompt you to find others.

Thank you Markos, we did the RC inventory a while ago but we have decided to go through it removing all actvities that are outside of our financial capabilities as posted above. We can then brainstorm some more suitable ones and start from there, with a realistic list...

Hello MB,

Im here to post an update on how things are going here....

Quick recap:

History:

Its been over 3 years since my A and D-Day. I went from being a kind and caring husband to a selfish, uncaring, immoral and quite frankly disgusting human being. Not only during the A but after. Although my wayward behaviour in terms of the OW stopped immediately upon discovery, I tortured my wife for years with trickle truth, no effort to recover the marriage or to even try and understand my wifes pain and multiple attempts to leave the marriage. She should have left me a long time ago now and I can see that would have been much healthier to her, but she battled on against all odds, relentlessly being let down by me time and time again. She along with therapists, councilors and Steve Harley all tried to help me understand the need for change, the need for improvement but I dismissed it as change is not possible for me and I am who I am. I was very pigheaded and I wasnt willing to do any hard work or heavy lifting within this marriage.

** Important fact **

Despite being married for 11 years now I never fully commited to the marriage. By that I mean that I always had a plan of how I would survive and run my life alone, down to living arrangements and finances etc. I wanted the marriage but always felt my wife was to good for me and so always felt it could end therefore the plan. However never commiting to the marriage and failure is not an option meant that hard work was never an option either.....

Decision time:

Just before 2012 we reached another breaking point in our marriage and were back to the should we split or not conversation. I was so close to losing my wonderful wife that I cant explain exactly what happended but I made a decision there and then to whole heartidly commit to the marriage. This may sound ridiculous to all of you reading this but the change was nothing short of incredible. Ive spoken those words many time before but without the meaning or feeling and many times the next day ive felt resentment for staying and therefore another false recovery was born. But the next day I felt great, like the weight of the world had been removed from my shoulders. I looked at my wife like the light of my life that she is. I wanted nothing but her happiness and if she chose that to still be with me then thats it. We would have it!!

2012:

The days following the decision I was actually reading (I had this info for 3 years) all the material and information and living it. Meeting my wifes EN's, ensuring UA time, utilising POJA. I had personal issues to resolve such as a previous issue with masterbation. I set up a notebook recording daily information to help break my patterns and was truthful with my data. After a month I stopped this as my habits had changed; I was able to maintain my new character without the need to monitor and have maintained this to this day without a single setback.

Of course my wife was weary as we had in theory been here many times over the 3 years but I knew it was different and it was time to make her see and believe it. Things went from strength to strength.... I did have a major setback as both of our threads show but instead of letting it knock us off track or me running off and finding my head burying sandpit we talked it out like adults and have appropriately moved forward.

We have had a lot on our plate this year with my wife opening a shop and her uncle and family moving the uk close to us but we have tackled it together and supported each other throughout and we feel great for it. We have plans going forward to maintain UA time and are excited about our future together......


I dont know how to explain this but a simple decision has changed my life forever. A change of mindset that I fought against for so long has opened my eyes and I feel like a new man for it; not the husband I was before but a better man for my wonderful wife...

How much UA time are you and your BW getting a week?

We are carefully scheduling our UA time as we have busy lives but will not neglect US again. We schedule 20hours every monday morning for the week.

Long time, so here is my update�..
My wife and I are getting on much better. We regularly use POJA which is a valuable tool for our communication. We schedule UA successfully despite our ridiculously busy life.
I guess I am here as I have been feeling so down and overwhelmed by our life in general and it�s affecting my wife. She has requested me to post here as this was part of our joint recovery agreement.
We have always had a busy life compared with anyone we know. We both work, have 4 kids, allotment to maintain, private work for extra cash, the obvious requirements of family life (homework time/housework/kids attention/scouts etc. etc.).
I started to hide away in a game on my phone during my quiet time just to escape from reality. Trouble is this escape became addictive and I found myself sneaking around to play it throughout the day rather than tackle this life that was making me so unhappy. We sat down and POJA�d the game usage and agreed it was too much and reduced it to mornings before school run and whilst at work on breaks as these times don�t affect the family or relationship time. This was hard at first but I preserved and stuck to our agreement, which gained my wife�s trust back regarding sneaking around. My wife applied for a dream job and for part of the assessment process was a fitness test. She organised a personal trainer and as she lacks willpower we decided I would workout too and tailor both our dietary needs together to make the cost of her dieting plausible (bulk buying). We both worked out separately but during the same hour in the morning which worked well.
This all sounds good but there is so much stress in our lives and its always go go go. Very rarely we get to just sit and talk or relax. She works during the day 10am-4pm and I work evenings 6pm-2am. This means we don�t incur any childcare costs which we simply couldn�t afford. Before anyone picks up on this, my wife owns a shop so at least 4 out of the 5 days during the week I go to the shop with her. So we spend a vast amount of time together there. Ill include details of an average day for an example:
7:30am � 8:30am - I wake up with the boys, organise breakfast and feed pets, washing up etc.
8:30-9:00 � school runs
09:00 � wife wakes up and gets ready for work
9:00-10:00 � my workout
10:00-1500 � shop with wife
15:00-15:30 � school runs
15:30-17:30 � kids bathing, dinner, pack lunches, allotment etc.
18:00-02:00 � I work
02:00 � I sleep
It might look like I�ve rounded times up but there is literally nothing to spare throughout the day to stop for a minute. I�m very unhappy at the moment and although I�m functioning alright and everything is getting done my wife can see I�m depressed. I can see we can�t change anything at the moment. We are saving for our first family holiday in 9 (NINE) years this year and so I�ve been working many days 18-20hrs when works available; this will end in a few weeks though. We need the allotment as the cost of living in the UK is ridiculous and it�s the only way we can afford fresh produce as the supermarket prices are crazy to �eat healthy�. Markets are an option but the food dies within a couple of days at best. The workout can stop but to be honest it�s all I have for me in this life. I�ve given up cycling (a previous passion) as it takes too much time to cycle and then maintain and clean bike afterwards and literally wouldn�t fit into our life. If I stop the workout it will simply be replaced by something else that�s banging at the door i.e. allotment.
I don�t see a way out and so just plod on day and day like a robot. The 6 week school holidays are coming in a couple of weeks which although it sounds horrible, my wife and I are dreading as our life can�t change and just means the boys get dragged around to the shop etc. with us. They hate it but if we take turns in the shop, we don�t see each other. So the level of entrapment is about to increase tenfold.
Oh and the weekends are identical so don�t think it gets easier. Saturday we still have the shop so a normal day plus the kids are with us. Sunday of course is housework and kids homework all day as we have hardly touched housework all week due to being at the shop.
It�s kind of strange to be posting here as our marriage isn�t in a bad place. Could be better of course but that isn�t the issue at the moment. We support each other and work very well as a team. I�m just depressed with this life to the point I get no enjoyment from it and look forward to nothing including the holiday.
I guess I should mention a motivator for the workout from my side. I�ve always had very low self-esteem and struggled for years to build myself up from the skinny wretch I am. My wife always said liked my body. Over the years she changed and started commenting on more muscly men around or on TV/movies. This crushed my confidence even more. I�ve always wanted to improve myself for me and not my wife as it�s my issue, but I decided to have one last go as I�m not getting any younger. We have a holiday planned soon and she looks great following her personal training and bless her she�s feeling good about herself which she should and I�m so happy for her and proud of her efforts. Trouble is I keep bringing her down as I don�t feel good enough for her. I feel embarrassed on her behalf to be seen in public with me and try to walk slightly behind if we are out. I wish I had the confidence to say I�m ugly but I don�t care look at my wife; but I can�t. She innocently mentioned jokingly with a trusted male mutual family friend about a hot guy in the gym next to the shop the other day; I�m worried on holiday it will end up with me hiding behind the kids permanently while she�s checking out the good looking guys which there will be plenty of abroad in holiday resorts.
I don�t know what im expecting here as asking people to get a perception of things through words isn�t easy but I want to give it a go as it can�t hurt and could get some useful advice.

Thanks for the update.

Wow your schedule is crazy. How much sleep are you getting? I know not getting enough sleep can make depression worse and vice versa.

So are you still exercising?

Have you told your DW that you "don't like it when she checks out other men"?

When you do get time for UA are you doing things you like?

Are you holding to your gaming POJA?

I have worked evenings / nights for so many years now, I have survived on 4 - 5 1/2 hours for as long as I remember now. On average im asleep at 2am and up at 7am. Luckily for me im not someone who struggles to sleep. 5mins in bed and im asleep, no winding down period required like many people.


Yes I started the American "insanity" workout which is a 63 day programme. I have 7 days left now. I really enjoyed the first month as requires 45mins a day which works inbetween the school run and leaving for my wife's work. The second month requires 60-90 mins each day which has really taken the fun out of it as that simply doesn�t fit in the allotted time.

Once its finished im looking to just do some basic weights at home in a smaller time frame like before. Id like to keep some form of fitness/exercise ongoing where possible.


Yes of course, not always at the time but eventually. She knows it makes me doubt myself but I can't blame her at all.


We went through many lists to try and come up with what was possible in terms of activities. We lost many due to finances with the holiday saving etc. We have now narrowed it to realistic items we can both relax and enjoy doing.


Initially as I said I struggled and love busted a few times leading to difficult conversations, still occasionally found time to sneak away to play. Although the playing time was greatly reduced it was still causing love bank withdrawls. Since we had the chat ive stuck to it very well. The workout reduces my game time even further as I do that within my agreed time but at least doing something useful with my time.

Are you on ADs? Will you get into your doctor and get some?

No I am not on AD's. They are very hard to get onto in the UK, I have tried a few times now. I will need my wife to attend with me to explain the effect on the family to really convince the doctor they are necessary.

Good.

Did you listen to Dr. Harley's advice to your DW's call?

No I am not aware of it as I dont have any dealings with her thread or what is discussed there as im aware that can influence the advice given and the topics / nature of discussions.

I will go and ask her now regarding this, thank you.

On a positive note; we have just returned from a truly wonderful day at the beach as a family. So many great memories and just what the doctor ordered. Feeling great at the moment

I will post the clip as soon as it goes into the archives, but since it was the Friday show it will play all weekend.

Go to "Listen Now" and you'll be able to listen to it now.

I listened to the radio show and discussed it with my wife. I will make a call to book an appointment first thing Monday morning for us both to attend.

another quick update:

called doctor surgery as promised and have an appointment for the 29th July which is much earlier than expected. Good news...

Good job.

How's that UA time coming along?

Radio Clip of Your Question

Sorry been ridiculously busy lately. We are still doing well with UA time. Making the most of available time and creative with others. For example we may have an appointment but we will walk and sit in a park together talking afterwards.

We are so close to our first family holiday in 10 years and so im working private jobs where I can but we arent neglecting our marriage.

Thanks for the easy link. I had actually sat down with my wife the morning it was mentioned on my thread and listened to it. Following that I booked an appointment for my wife and I to see a doctor on 29th July.

Sorry forgot to update you. Went to the doctors on the 29th and my wife and I battled and I am now on AD's.

Battled?

Haven't you both read Love Busters? Why are you two still struggling with some basic concepts?

Stop all Love Busters??

No sorry you misunderstood. I meant my wife and I had to battle the GP. I told you its not easy here to get onto AD's. We managed it by working together. Theres no issue. Ive taken then everyday so far and will continue too

So what's going on with your gaming? I thought you POJA the time to game?

Are you holding to this?

right the issue of my gaming....

After an argument regarding my obsessive playing we agreed certain times of the day that it would be acceptable to play on work days and the same for non work days. For 2 months this was adhered to without fault. Roughly 3 weeks ago now I asked my wife in advance of my day off if she would mind a one off couple of hours for me to play on my day off work the next day. She agreed although stated she would never be enthusiastic towards my game.

The next evening it was agreed I would play from 9pm-11pm. I started playing at 9pm and I remember checking the clock at 10:45. The next thing I received a text from my wife asking if I would be much longer; it was now 11:10. I hadnt noticed I had overrun but she assumed it was intentional. I checked with her if we were still going food shopping but she was too angry and refused to go. This escalated into a big argument.

From the next day for 2 1/2 weeks everything was adhered to perfectly again until an incident late last week which was completely my fault. My wife had quickly popped from our shop to a neighbouring shop to buy something. I was waiting to go for my lunch, she hadnt returned 20 minutes later and my food was cold so I started to eat outside the cafe next door so I could still see if we had any customers. I was very angry and I did check my game while eating which there's no excuse for I admit. She finally returned to find me eating with my phone on the table with the game on. This led to an argument which I apologised for as I had the choice of how to react and I chose to break my boundaries and do something I knew would anger her.

Since then the agreement has been adhered to fully.

So it sounds like you need to POJA this again.

Is this gaming happening after you've met your UA time? How much are you getting? What are you doing?

The times agreed do not in any way affect our UA time as we've agreed evenings while im at work and early mornings before my wife wakes up. My agreed morning housework is always done on time before she wakes up regardless of my gaming. This is why for months its run smoothly.

We both make an effort to ensure our UA time is met. Depending on our week (we sit down together and plan every Sunday) we hit between 15-20hrs. My evenings off work we go for long walks through some nearby woods/fields, days off we arrange activities like coffee mornings, lunch dates, we have an allotment so we go to that a lot and just spend the time talking and enjoying each others company.

Just thought I'd throw this out there. Make sure that the time you spend together is the MOST enjoyable time of the week for both of you.

I was listening to the radio show the other day while mowing the lawn and Dr Harley had an example of a guy who loved to play golf. His wife liked to sleep in a little later on the weekends. So what he would do is get up at 5AM on Saturdays and go golfing while his wife was still asleep. He was on the golf course by 6AM and done and back by the time his wife woke up. Then they would spend the rest of the day doing something together.

Sounds great right? Well the problem with that was, Saturday morning golf became the most enjoyable part of his weekend. So even though he got in his UA time with his wife, the things they did together weren't as enjoyable to him as golfing that morning. This created a contrast effect, where no matter what they did together that day, it couldn't compete with the enjoyment he got while golfing.

Just something to consider.

Well it seems your DW is not enthusiastic about Your gaming. So you need to quit gaming until you both are enthusiastic about it.

So what are you going to do?

This has taken me quite a while to think about how to answer this. Guess I just have to be honest, over the years I've given up everything that I've enjoyed, friends, cars and cycling. Although this gaming might be pathetic its the last thing I do that I personally enjoy. It doesn't take planning so nice and simple and stress free when at work especially.

We all have to compromise to POJA otherwise neither of us would leave the bed let alone the house lol

I'm not currently willing to stop the little gaming I do for the above reasons. Our life is crazy manic and stressful like no one I know. So yes I would like to keep the final thing I enjoy that gets me through those times. Or at least wait until my AD's have kicked in first before considering it.

Hmmmm this is an intelligent post and I've been thinking about it most of the day. The concept does make sense.

So my response is this; when im gaming im escaping the ridiculously stressful life we have. Its not about the enjoyment levels (sometimes it goes badly) its about the escape. So while the escape it addictive, id still be spending my most enjoyable time with my wife.

Your escape should be with your wife.

Bottom line, your wife is not enthusiastic about your gaming. Are you willing to stop gaming, or will you continue at her expense?

Dangerous thinking.

Then I would advise your wife to leave you. You are not safe if you are willing to gain at her expense.

That means that you enjoy the gaming MORE than you do spending time with her. You are so obviously addicted that I am confused why this has not been addressed. An addict always has a myriad of reasons why they can't quit even though it causes great problems in their life. Why not just quit gaming altogether?

The escape should be your WIFE. And I don't believe it is not about enjoyment levels. I don't believe you. You are clearly addicted, which is why you won't give it up. It will always be a problem until you stop.

Can you go 30 days without it?

Yes, Dr. Harley says this often.

I completely understand gaming to escape. That's what I used to do many years ago. But now I escape with my wife!

This is what alcoholics say about alcohol. Do you realize this? They drink to escape life. That is very unhealthy, dysfunctional way to handle life.

The solution is to make your life less stressful and to find ways to alleviate stress that won't wreck your marriage. Normal people find healthy outlets every day. Your marriage is should be a great escape.

ARE YOU SERIOUS???

NO!

No, we don't compromise the POJA.

Not in my house, anyway!

L2G,

As others have stated. When are you going to quit gaming?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb.cfm/4/29/282

That's a pretty serious level of commitment Dr. Harley is recommending for marriage!

By the way, Dr. Harley himself packed up his own video games years ago.

It's not the last thing you'll ever find to enjoy, though. There are many, many things to enjoy in life. You and your wife need to find something you enjoy together, and until then you need to not game.


But your wife is not willing for you to continue.


I've got six children and have trouble believing your life is more crazy manic and stressful than mine.

Let's say a man has a terrible allergic reaction when he eats bananas.

A normal person will do the obvious: quit eating bananas.

An addict concocts elaborate and ODD strategies to keep bananas in his life. He negotiates with his unsuspecting spouse to eat 1/10th banana on Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday. Pretty soon he is eating 1/2 banana on those days. The negotiating is endless until he is eventually back up to 10 bananas a day and suffering daily allergic attacks.

Would a sane person do that? That is "sanity" to the addict!

I realise this is becoming a lose/lose situation for me. See most things I do during the days with my wife I do not enthusiastically agree to, but I do them as otherwise we simply wouldn't see each other. Now if I give up the gaming due to it not being enthusiastically agreed with by my wife I have two options. Either I keep doing what I'm doing to keep this marriage together or I stick to what I've just been told above many times about what POJA is but it will badly effect our life and cause issues.

So basically this will be where I give up gaming and yet continue to sacrifice in order to make our marriage work. Or I give up gaming but appear to my wife to be acting like a baby and intentionally ruining everything else to prove a point.

How do you advise I manage this transition?

Let me clarify quickly for example. She works in a shop during the day 10-4 for 4-5 days a week. At the moment I go to the shop roughly 3-4 times to spent time together as I work evenings and therefore we wouldn't see each other. Well I hate going to the shop and she knows it as she does to but has to work. I agree but never enthusiastically to do this for our benefit. Now if POJA is properly implemented as you say above I should never step foot in that shop again. So that is why in my last post I said that we agree to things to make our life happen but not enthusiastically. So will it be one rule for her and one for me or shall we implement POJA fully but the inital fall out will be huge until we can find some way around this situation?

Please advise...

Not to worry we have chatted and we will POJA everything as Dr. Harley suggests.

I have deleted the game and everything else that I could do independently from my wife

In the POJA you find solutions that make you BOTH happy. Working opposite shifts is a disaster to marriage. So I would work on finding a job where you work the SAME shift so that the time you have together is enjoyable and pleasant. Further, you can't really have UA time with someone who is WORKING. Visiting her at work intermittenly is not UA time. You need to be out on DATES with each other.

You are poisoning the well by doing things you don't want to do. UA time has to be the most enjoyable time of your day. You have set it up so it is a misery. That defeats the entire purpose!

I didnt say our UA time was spent at he shop but in terms of time spent together its a large portion of our week. Working the same shift isnt possible unless we can magic up $1000+ a month for childcare which simply isn't possible.

I'm curious - if the shop isn't UA time, then why do you go there?

So where is your 15-20 hours of UA time and why are you going to the shop if you hate it?

How old are your children? Are they not in school?

You guys need to figure this one out. Working opposite shifts is terrible for a marriage because you can't coordinate your schedules and you are operating in parallel lives. You have both been here long enough to know this.

p.s. I want to applaud you for deleting the game! That was exactly the right thing to do. But don't ruin the effort by sulking about it. You did it on a voluntary basis so don't ruin the effect of the gesture by sulking, ok?

I know its hard to give up a powerful addiction at first, but it won't take long to adjust. I promise ya!

Because we would literally see each the 15-20 hours UA time per week and that would be it without the shop, so I went there for good of our marriage.

They are 5, 7, 9 and 12 so yes they are in school from 8:30am-3:00pm.


Both of our hours are fixed so she permanently works 10:30am-4pm and I work 6pm-2am. So yes its not ideal but it was a compromise to avoid shift work and childcare. This way we can plan our week accurately and survive financially. Hence how we are still achieving our UA time every week without fail.

curious question for you guys:

I was just joking around with my wife about POJA and mentioned housework. Now to me there are certain things that NEED to be done and are mandatory to life. Things like housework surely shouldn't be POJA'd as lets be serious, NO ONE will ever be enthusiastic about cleaning floors and hanging laundry

She said everything should be POJA'd. So she suggested I post here about it.

Are you familiar with what Dr Harley says about working opposing shifts and how bad it is for marriages? It might be good for your finances, but it is not good for your marriage when you are not spending the evenings together. You can't go to bed and get up together this way.

I know I'm nitpicking a little here but we do go to bed together as wife is an insomniac and never sleeps til late. I actually wake up before her with the boys everyday.

What exactly have you read so far? What books, articles? And how many hours of radio show have you listened to?

And you spend the evenings together too, right?

No obviously we cant. Thats why we make sure our UA time is hit without fail. And also why I went to the shop most days.

My point is that you could if you got a day job like your wife. Like I said, working opposite shifts is terrible for marriages. As you can see. You hate going to the shop and your wife hates you being home playing games.

I understand your point melody. Well my company is contract work and they are likely to loose their contract in January so might have to be looking for work anyway so can take time to consider options then...

You're not too serious about all this, are you?

I know that at the moment its not an option for either of us to change hours/jobs as we would need to figure out so much financially unless I can just walk into a $70k+ a year job which wont happen. I don't want to say yes melody we will change it don't worry. Wouldn't you rather have my honesty to work with?

Like I said, you are not serious.

And that is fine if you are not serious. It is your marriage, not mine. I am curious about why you are even posting?

feel free to mention to my wife about us both working during the day...

Im sorry that our work commitments aren't great but that's not something we can fix by tomorrow or next week. Even if I found a job instantly id have to work 30 days notice. Plus the interview process. So would still be Christmas at best.

I don't see how just because we arent both working during the day you say I might as well not bother posting? Are you serious?

The mutual enthusiasm comes from agreeing on the solution to the problem, not the task itself. In my situation, my wife works full time and I am retired. I do nearly all the housework. When she isn't working, I want UA time with her. I don't want her having to spend the time doing housework. This was a POJA solution that I was enthusiastic about. That doesn't mean I like doing housework.

That is not what I said. What I did say is that you are not very serious about this. And you are not. The work schedules are just one of many things I see.. Obviously it is an issue to be apart from 10 am to 2 am 5 days a week, but you don't see that as a problem. I see you as a spouse who is not very invested in his marriage and can't be bothered to do much more than occasionally post on a forum.

And yes, I AM serious. I don't believe you ARE. The people who are posting to you are more serious about your marriage than you are.

Did you see this post?

Well yes the stay at home person technically inherits the job of homemaker and so id expect the housework, kids, possibly cooking to be taken over by them.

I think the word 'enthusiastic' is just totally wrong. I can see the concept but again for example, discussing housework chores or food shopping etc, I would 'agree' to do x,y,z because it 'makes sense' but it would never inspire enthusiasm.

definition of enthusiasm:

- having or showing great excitement and interest

- full of or characterized by enthusiasm; eager.

- filled with or motivated by enthusiasm; fanatical; keen

Thats why I agreed things for the good of our marriage, but if now I have to adhere to enthusiasm via POJA its getting messy.

sorry no I didnt. As you know we have been around in these forums for years now. We have read all the basic concepts together, done all the questionnaires many times. We have SAA which we mostly read but switched to HNHN which we have read but are about to re-read together. Ive listened to radio clips regarding to us but no others. My wife listens to more and has asked me to listen to others which I have with her.

Anyway I'm continuing to do the housework as I believe its not able to be left to cause more stress on the household by living in a dirty environment.

The point I am trying to make is that all tasks are resolvable via POJA. If my wife *expected* me to do housework, there would be hell to pay! I am the full-time caregiver to my adult autistic son. That is enough work for anybody.

The fact that you chose to express yourself like this speaks volumes about you.

Yes, we know, and that's precisely what's so disappointing about your thread.

You are not clueless about MB - you have all the tools available to have a trememdonous marriage, many great posters who have been willing to help guide you, yet you keep on doing things that are so damaging throughout your R.....breaking EPs, outrageous lack of POJA (playing phone games despite your W's objection, refusing to walk with her in public), threatening to leave. Now we hear you are on opposite shifts.

Do you want help implementing MB or not? How long do you expect your W to keep trying to work this program all by herself?

This is enthusiasm. You have a potential solution (you doing the housework), you have picked it, you are enthusiastic about it being solved this way. Now, you would prefer not to have the problem in the first place (housework magically disappear, for example ), and you aren't "jumping for joy" over the idea of doing housework, but you are enthusiastic about solving it this way, at least for now.

I don't think you have invested enough in learning this program to learn how to use it to build a good marriage.

I would you start listening to the radio show on a daily basis. There is really no substitute for being taught by Dr. Harley himself.

It's on right now!

Ditto! It really makes your wife take notice when you start living by the POJA.

I dont see tone in your post was valid as I was clear to write that post generally and not aimed at you specifically. Even if you did want to make it personal I was obviously not aware of your sons disability which changes everything. But yes in general if one person works and one is the homemaker then the homemakers role would be the majority of the housework. That stands to reason baring any special circumstances. I dont my character should be judged on that staement....

Think I'll read up on POJA as this enthusiasm thing is driving me crazy. There wasnt enthuasim in my post or decision. There was acceptance that a mandatory task must be carried out. Anyway ill read up and post back after. Thanks for posting

Thank you both for your words of encouragement

What makes it "mandatory"?

There really isn't anything mandatory about housework. The thing is, most of us are not willing to live in filth, and therefore we are enthusiastic about cleaning it up.

Nothing mandatory about it. You and your wife don't have to clean if you are not enthusiastic about it.

Why? I just returned the same generalizations at you that you tried on me. Like Igor said in "Young Frankenstein", "I thought you wanted to talk that way".

I think you know perfectly well how POJA is to be applied in this situation. So, instead of working so hard to resist it, why not put the effort into putting the principle to work? What I can pretty much guarantee you is that you are not going to be successful in poking holes in it. POJA is used to solve a large variety of problems by many couples in a large variety of situations. You want me to believe that you can't figure it out? It isn't that hard.

My wife and I just used POJA to figure out who should dig up the septic tank. It wasn't hard, knowing who is most qualified to do the physical part of the work. I am clearly the stronger of the two of us. We were both enthusiastic about the solution. We paid somebody else to do it!

Funny enough his is exactly my point. You were both ENTHUSIASTIC as neither of you had to do the disgusting job. However if you didn't have the money and you had to do the job as the strongest and more knowledge in that field; would have been ENTHUSIASTIC about the solution?? no way, so that job wouldn't have got done. But it NEEDS to so therefore you would have AGREED to do it, nothing to do with enthusiasm. The only enthusiastic part is not having to know your wife did it when clearly you were more eligible. But that's avoiding guilt. Still not enthusiasm.

I feel POJA is about compromise and not enthusiasm. Its about reaching an understanding, an agreement, that you can both see is the best possible outcome from a situation therefore its a mutual decision which both parties understand so no need to argue or have any bad feelings about i.e resentment. Still nothing to do with the word enthusiasm as per dictionary definition.

Well, you're wrong. And I've already explained why.

If MrEureka and his wife didn't have the money to pay someone to fix the septic, and neither wanted to dig it up, then no, it is a job that would not have gotten done. There is nothing that mandates that it MUST be done. However, it is very unlikely that either MrEureka or his wife would've wanted to stay in a situation without a septic for very long, and it would not be long before there was some enthusiasm for digging it up.

I get the impression you are desperately trying to find a loophole. Why?

You have choices here. There is POJA, as has been clearly explained, and there are the other negotiating methods, including compromise. Why seek to redefine POJA? If you don't want to work at enthusiastic agreements, who is stopping you? Your marriage will suffer the consequences. That is the simple truth. I know you get it, so stop trying to win a pointless debate. POJA is what POJA is defined to be. You aren't going to make it into something else. Why do you feel the need? Are you trying to earn your POJA merit badge without doing the work? You will not enjoy the benefits of a MB marriage if you look for short cuts.

I don't post much here, but I am interested in words and their uses. For what it's worth, I get you. I wouldn't have picked "enthusiasm" to describe this scenario either. It implies an emotional state that may not be realistic if all available choices involve pain and/or expense just by the nature of the dilemma (as in the unexpected failure of a crucial household system). That said, it does you no good to get too hung up on semantics here. You have already done the work of redefining "enthusiasm" in this context in a way that makes sense to you:


That's it in a nutshell. You come to a mutual agreement that path x is the best way to reach a mutually-desired outcome. Therefore nobody feels they got the bad end of the deal as compared to their spouse or feels pressured by their spouse into a suboptimal choice. Go forth and POJA.

Actually you misunderstand. Im trying to understand exactly how I should conduct myself in terms of POJA negotiations. Im trying to prove that the word enthusiasm is misplaced here and it worries me that however disgusting living with an overflowing septic tank you actually feel you will feel ENTHUSIASM towards cleaning it up. < EDIT >

Anyway I'm done trying to prove my point and I will give in and use POJA using ENTHUSIASM now without arguing anymore. further.

Thank you. I was actually trying to help my marriage when using POJA as being able to agree to the best apparent solution would mean a lot more is going to happen. However apparently its all about enthusiasm although no one can really explain it to me.

Its actually deeply worrying that people here have actually redefined their own understanding of the word enthusiasm to make POJA work. If they read the dictionary meaning and then tried POJAing very little would happen compared to currently.

Anyway as I am doing the MB program I shall follow like a sheep and use enthusiasm when POJAing and we will see what happens..

Well, if you have an issue with the "enthusiastic" part, why don't you write Dr. Harley about it?

<EDIT>

Dr. Harley explained to me that he uses enthusiastic as opposed to reluctant. It's not always about being excited about the task itself, but about agreeing the outcome is worth the effort of the task. He often uses an example of his college job of stuffing envelopes as an example. He didn't like it, it was boring, tedious. However, he worked a system where he was more efficient, as well as enjoyed his coworkers' company. He missed the job when it was over because he missed his coworkers and the atmosphere.

It's not just about the job or task, it's also about being partners, about the marriage relationship you're building around the tasks and burdens, as well as the joys and fun, of life.

He also has an example of a limb falling in the back yard that bothers the wife, but it doesn't bother the husband. Actually, the husband doesn't feel like removing the limb. He said they could negotiate him removing it, and that they could negotiate that if he removed it, the wife would gave him a big hug and kiss and thank you after he did it. This is an exaple of coming to a solution that they both agreed to enthusiastically.

Will you write Dr. Harley?

The way I interpret 'enthusiastic agreement' is that both H and W are not Capitulating or Agreeing just to make the other person happy in a way that sacrifices their own happiness.

Maybe you are confusing Enthusiasm with Happiness? Say the grass needs cut. W and I negotiate when/how it is going to get done in a way that works for both of us. Am I happy that the grass needs mowed? Maybe not but I am enthusiastic on HOW it is going to be done.

To me the POJA takes years to perfect (if ever) but it is the single most important aspect of MB's. I truly see its value in my own life.

The Beauty of POJA: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2372783&page=1

Posters with a similar attitude to yours re POJA are addressed so I encourage you to read it.

Have you read Love Busters?

Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders?
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders