not sure where to start. my husband and i are in recovery right now. i am the wayward wife. i started an emotional affair late summer of 2010. it became a physical affair jan 2011. my husband found out about it march 2011. i immediately moved out of the house and we were talking divorce. long story short, we decided to work on our marriage while i was still living separate. i wasn't ready to give up my affair partner at that time. for the next 9 months i was still emailing him (but not nearly as much as before) and saw him in person twice (but no physical contact).
my foggy head was clearing up while i was falling back in love with my husband (thanks for marriage builders)and my mind was clear by jan 2012. i moved back in mid feb 2012. we have been incorporating the steps that we read about in harleys books. i guess my question is how do we get past the angry days (my husband towards me) and get past all the triggers for us both? it seems to set us back even though i feel we have made much progress. i am still earning his trust back and i know it takes time.

The way to earn his forgiveness and resolve his anger is to give him just compensation. JC ensures that you create a happy, romantic marriage. Those good feelings will eventually replace the BAD and he will not be so angry about what you did to him.

Have you read Dr Harley's article on Just Compensation? Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Did you end ALL contact with the OM? Is he married, and if so, does his spouse know what you did?

Does your husband lash out in anger towards you NOW?

Clearmind,

Did you answer all his questions with complete details and honesty, or are you hiding anything to "protect his feelings"?

For example if you BH did not get the complete details then he might be triggered every time he passes a Motel and then wonders if you went there with OM. A BHs imagination can be so much worse than reality.

God Bless
Gamma

Not sure what Just Compensation is?? have not read that book. my husband and i have read surviving an affair and currently reading his needs, her needs. The book you mentioned will be next on our list.
i have ended ALL contact with the OM early January. he was not married.
my husband does not lash out in anger towards me. he becomes withdrawn.

clearmind, it is good that you have those books. I would focus on SAA and you might even want to get the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. It has all the necessary worksheets in it and walks you through the lessons.

The link above, though, is just an ARTICLE, not a book. You can read it now.

He is probably withdrawn because he is depressed and because he is afraid of you. You caused him great harm in the past so he is fearful of being emotionally vulnerable around you. That will take time.

i have answered his questions. therefore, now all wendy's and silverado's are triggers for us. not sure how to handle that??

Avoid them as much as possible!

Clearmind,

But at least Toyotas, McDonalds, dogs, and etc are NOT TRIGGERS. You've reduced an infinite number of triggers to a manageable sub-set.

He will eventually assimilate the truth and accept it, in the long term uncertainty is more of a killer.

BTW are you absolutely sure he is unmarried? Some OM are such good con men their entire lives are fabrications.

God Bless
Gamma

Welcome, Clearmind.
Don't mind me if I ask about your EPs for a bit, ok?

So I gather from your husband's thread that you've closed the FB account wherre you "reconnected" with the ex who became your OM, correct? If so, that's important.

Tell us more about how you got rid of the pay-as-you phone that you'd been using to speak with OM. How & when did you give it back to OM? (Would've been better to drop it in the nearest deep river w/ your hubs looking on.) Did you give your husband the number? How does he know it's gone?

Did you ask your employer's IT to change your company e-mail address & phone number since you sent your no-contact letter? Or do you still have the same e-mail address(es) and phone that OM used to reach you at?

Sorry to be picky... it may seem, or may be, impossible to provide literally perfect assurance of no-contact, but you need to get as absolutely close to 100% assurance as possible. Every little thing you can do may matter in helping to restore your H's ability to feel emotionally-safe in reinvesting in your marriage.

BIG MB welcome to clearmind.
You are in the right place.
I'm about to get tough with you, but for a reason.
You do not possess a clear mind at all, clearmind.


What's wrong with a little justifiable anger anyway?
He's not cursing/hitting is he?
When men are emotionally hurt, they often express it via anger.
Next time your BH shows anger, calmly (not tearfully or fearfully) tell him you know you've hurt him in the worst way possible and you are willing to do what ever it takes for as long as it takes to make things right. Ask BH if it's OK to touch his hand when he is angry. Hold hands. Then ask if it is OK to hug him. Hug, if you get the OK.
You will get more angry days ahead. Sometimes for no apparent reason.
I suggest a gentle and humble approach that shows how much YOU CARE for him.

"I am willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to make things right."


Also, my H would ask me every day "Is there anything I can do for you today?" That level of concern & care DEMONSTRATED on a consistent daily basis over a few years following his infidelity has created a very happy marriage environment for us both.

Now the "get tough" part.


What the hell does "get past" mean anyway?
For me, when a wayward writes "get past" I begin to get all twitchy ....

You do not move around problems, my clearmind, you work through them.
You do not "get past" anything on the road to recovery.
You learn different skills.
You demand more of yourself.
You raise your level of care so that you NEVER ask your BH to "get past" his grief, his sorrow, his pain, his fear.

You see, his fear is very real.
He fears he is not 'man enough' to keep you interested.
You must not 'get past' his fear.
You must help him by showing him multiple times on a daily basis that you are sticking through thick & thin.

OK sista'?

Don't go there. Don't even drive by there. Easy.

[video:youtube][/video]


Please watch this 30 minute video.
Once this week, repeat next week.
Re-watch as necessary.

clearmind.

The pain a BS feels when they find an affair is completely and totally devastating. The pain a BS feels after a false recovery is like death.

The recovery time is measured in years.

It is called a rollercoaster because there will be many ups and downs. I remember how the intense anger would just hit me from out of the blue for no reason. Expect this to happen to your BH also. It is normal. Also expect the ups and downs of the rollercoaster ride.

Here is the key...words no longer mean anything to a BS...it is all about your ACTIONS.

Keep working the MB plan and give it time. Is OM still able to contact you at work? If so...shut that channel down and even think about leaving that job. It will go far in showing your sincerity and making BH feel a little safer.

Gloveoil,
I have closed my FB account and am not and will not ever be on a social network site again.
I gave the pay as go phone back to my affair partner. I returned it back to him about a week or so after my husband confronted me about the affair and we decided to work on our marriage (i was still in a fog at that time). I returned the phone along with some other of his things. I put all the stuff at another persons house and texted him to pick it up at a later time (while i was not there). My husband did not know the number because i didn't even know the number. my affair partner got it for me and programmed our numbers in each others phone.


I have changed my work email address. i am still trying to change my work number but i work for a government agency so that is still up in the air.

Pepperband,
I know my husbands anger is justifiable. I am not trying to negate my actions. I know what i did was very wrong and i regret it every day. it is something that i will have to live with forever. I guess i used the wrong words when i said "get past". I really mean how do we deal with those moments of anger in the most productive way?
I really appreciate your suggestions and I will use them. Thanks for your help. I do appreciate it!

Marital bliss,
I never realized how many wendys and silverados are out there. It is about immpossible not to see one of those on a daily basis. (on the way to work, commercials, etc)

Who is triggered and in what way by Wendys and Silverados?

melody lane,
We are both triggered by wendys and silverados. I met my affair partner at wendys for lunches and he drove a silverado, which my husband is aware of. thereofre, they are triggers for us both.

OK. You are very welcome.

"I will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to make things right."

What is a favorite recreational activity that you and H can plan together?
It does not need to be a big show, like expensive concert tickets. It might be hiking or a trip to a local museum.
Name 3 possibilities.

This is how you "deal with" the past ~~~> You (both) create a safe and enjoyable marriage environment today. Despite your doubts. You do it anyway.

You feel guilty, right?
Good, up to a point.
Then it becomes all about your feelings.
You need to be showing care for him.
It's much more productive to create today's happy memories.

Recreational activity. Very important.
My H and I started reading one book together. A non-affair novel. We picked some Stephen King novellas. We'd take turns reading aloud in bed. It was fun. It was leisurely. It worked some calm into our lives.

Make love as often as possible.
It may get emotional for either of you. That's OK. Do it anyway. The emotion will be a part of Radical Honesty.

How are you otherwise?

pepperband,
My husband and I have been spending quality time (no tv) after the kids go to bed. We started doing puzzles and we take turns reading harleys books out loud. We also have date night every other week. Our 3rd date night will be this saturday. By doing these things, we have definately reconnected with each other. We have realized that it is vital for us to have our time.
As to our intimacy, it is the best it has ever been. I know this sounds crazy, but other than the huge issue we are dealing with, i feel the happiest i have ever been in our marriage. We are closer than ever. It is just so hard to have the bad days. I am realistic and know that we will have those days. I just want to be better prepared for when they do happen and know how to help my husband through those times.

CM, that is great, but I would step this WAY UP. One date night every other week is NOT even close to what it will take. Quality undivided attention time is spent away from the home at a time of the day when you are at your best and most energetic. UA time is much better when you dress up and GO OUT. It is not quality UA time when you spend it at home at a time of the day when you are most exhausted and are not dressed up. It is too easy to put off UA time when you can be easily distracted by chores, phone calls or crying children.

Harley recommends FOUR date nights a week in blocks of 4 hours. Your best friend about now should be a list of babysitters you can call to come watch the kids.

I would use the UA time worksheet that is in the back of the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook. Tear it out and make copies. Set down once a week and schedule out your time for the next week. Time that is scheduled is much harder to put off.

At first, most couples REFUSE to do this [because they are in the habit of putting their marriage LAST and because they are not in love] but once you start doing it, you get so excited about your dates that you look forward to them all day. I know I do!

This step will make the fastest, most dramatic change in your marriage. The program does not work without it. It takes 15 hours to MAINTAIN romantic love and 20+ hours to CREATE.

I understand. Applebee's was a trigger for my FWH and me. We had to drive by them fairly regularly. We drive by Applebee's now without a second thought. It's something you will acquire as you move through recovery. Things that meant a lot during the affair will pale as you rebuild your marriage.

Understand, though, that you may never be able to be comfortable actually eating in those places again. We no longer eat or drink at Applebee's. That's part of recovery. And it's okay. You'll live without having a Wendy's burger, right?

i am lost and floundering. my husband pulled the get out of marriage card tonight and i am scared. he is withdrawing from me because he feels i am not driving the train to recovery. he feels i need to be more proactive. i thought we are in recovery. not sure when a couple are considered to be officially in recovery? all the eps are in place. i am being transparent. working hard on fulfilling his emotional needs. (we agreed that my needs are not important at this point). i need to step up my game and need the veterans help. another issue is that is seems that we are in a depression circle. he gets depressed then i get depressed. round and round it goes. is that normal?

You can't create a romantic, mutually satisfying marriage if he is not meeting your needs. And I suspect that he very much needs and wants you to be in love with him, doesn't he?

You won't feel in love with him if that does not happen.

Did you follow my advice and start scheduling 20+ hours of undivided attention time so you can restore the romantic love to your marriage?

What are his exact complaints?

ml, i am very much in love with my husband. actually more than i ever have been. it is the other way around, he says he is not in love with me. plan A worked for him. we are trying hard to schedule 20 hours. i wanted a date night this weekend with him and he suggested to move it next week. i agreed. it is hard for us to have a date night every weekend due to baby sitting issues but we are working on that. we probably get about 15 hours a week which i agree is not enough for him to fall back in love with me.

Please read.
The critical importance of UA

bh, his complaint has been not enough affirmation. i stepped up my game on that. dont think that is an issue anymore. he thinks i do not have a plan. i think i do but what i think doesnt matter. what he thinks is what matters. another complaint is he thinks i should be more agressive in having him fill out another en questionnaire. he said he wants me to physically give him the questionnaire and not just ask him to when he gets time.

bh, another complaint is that he asked me a couple days ago to post on marriage builders. and i hadnt done that yet.

Does he believe that you are in love with him? I find it very, very odd that you are in love with him since a) you were detached enough to have an affair and b) he does not meet any of your needs and c) you certainly don't spend enough time together to even SUSTAIN romantic love. That is the NORM after an affair.

Is that really honest to say you are in love with him? Do you really mean that you have a caring love for him? Versus a romantic love...

It sounds to me like he doesn't FEEL like you love him and there is a reason he doesn't feel it. Because you are NOT in love with him. if you don't admit the problem it can't be addressed and fixed.

here

ml, i just asked my husband if he believes that i am in love with him. he said sometimes he has his doubts. that he is not sure what he can or can't believe. i didnt realize he felt that way. i do really believe that i am in love with him. he has pretty much stopped his love busting which was what killed my love for him through the years. i dont feel detached at all. there are moments when i feel extremely connected to him and i have never felt that before with anyone. as to the ua, i agree that we need more. during plan a, i eventually let him meet my needs. currently he meets my needs somewhat. he said it will take time for him to show me all the love that he knows is capable of giving me. which i totally understand. he lost his love for me at the false recovery. i know it will take time to prove many things to him.

I think his doubts would be removed before long if you really threw all of your efforts into getting in that UA time. I would also focus on the policy of Radical honesty and how critical it is to creating true intimacy.

What things could you do that would make him feel the most loved? Can you go ask him that question?

And why didn't you? It was a simple request and it was also a request he wouldn't have had to make at all if you had been proactive. You look lazy to him. Many BSs would look at this as an example of a WS not even being willing to do the little things so they sure can't count on a WS to do the heavy lifting. Add that to little UA time, a FR (plus you left BH), and general cruddy feelings an A brings about. His withdrawl is understandable. Step it up!!!

Did you say ^^^ to your BH? I hope not.

Clearmind,

Did he get all of the details of the affair to his satisfaction, or did he withdraw and not want to know anything?

Was there any downside for the OM was their exposure to his workplace or family?

God Bless
Gamma

I would reinforce this statement three fold. You must explain all the reality and circumstances, and if he has forgotten or missed asking something: volunteer it! Don't but the burden on him to come up with all the "what ifs"- that's torture. Tell him everything.

I have been exactly where your H is.

I was waiting for my WH to behave in the way that best case scenario waywards on this forum behave. Pulling out ALL THE STOPS. Making it their life's work to recover their M's and do everything that is humanly possible, whatever it takes, to heal their BS's from the pain they had caused.

He didn't do it.

He committed to R. He had NC with any of his previous AP's. He gave me complete transparancy. He followed any EP's I put in place.

He did NOT seem to put any effort into reading MB materials, principles, forums, etc. or educating himself on what it would take to recover our M (I did). He did NOT post on these forums (I did). He did NOT come to ME and say 'are there any details about the A's I have had that you need to know that you have not had answered?' (there were, only every time I brought it up he seemed so put off by the fact that I would continue to bring this up that I felt guilty for doing so and therefore I didn't bring them up and they festered). Although we had discussed him taking a poly many times he did NOT go forth and make a poly appt and take one. He did NOT pull out all the stops. He did NOT 'chase me' and make me feel like he was 100% enthusiastic about our R and dedicated to doing whatever he could to heal me and make me the treasure of his life.

I, in turn, continued to lose love for him because of this. I got to the point where I was apathetic about him. I wasn't mad anymore, or considerably hurt. I just wanted it to be over.

I am not sure what accumulation of events happened to turn him around. He did and now he is finally driving the recovery bus. He is coming to me to plan UA time, discuss our EN's and how well we are meeting them, make sure he is doing the right things. HE is making sure our UA time is met, not me. HE is planning our dates, not me. HE researched, made an appt for, and took a poly. HE, is driving the recovery bus, not me.

I felt like my WH did not take it seriously. I felt like he did not expend all his effort to recover this M. He expended some, like I said. But I wanted to see efforts of GRAND proportions. I wanted to feel like our M, our recovery, my healing was the #1 thought on his mind every day. And I did not. I felt the efforts he was making were efforts that anyone would make to sustain a good M, not efforts a TRULY REPENTANT WS who had completely devastated his spouse would make to make amends. That is the difference.

I don't think its too late for you, but you must act fact, because once I was in the state your H is in, I was ready to go.

Have you made recovery your #1 goal in life? Have you pulled out all the stops and done everything your BH could ever need to heal from this? Have you answered all of his questions openly and honestly, have you maintained complete NC, have you followed all EP's to the T? Have you proactively discussed his feelings about this, planned UA time and been adamant about following through with it, planned date nights, made him feel like making amends to him is the foremost thought on your mind? Have you worked your A$$ off to meet his most important needs?

I am guessing a big NO to those questions since one of his simplest requests, that you continue to post here, seems to have been too much for you.

As far as the depression cycle. If you get depressed because you feel guilt, feeling guilty is good. You should feel guilt for what you have done and the damage it has caused. But wallowing around in your own guilt is selfish. Your goal needs to be to fix this, and if you are wallowing around in guilt and giving yourself permission to be depressed, then you are not doing what you need to do to fix this. Feel guilty, and respond to that guilt by doing everything you can do to make amends for what you feel guilty for.

Very nicely stated...

ml, i asked my husband what things i could do that would made him feel the most loved. he thought it was a great question and wanted to think about it today and discuss tonight.

br, i have no eason, just excuses. i realize that i really do have to step up my game before it is too late. i am responsible to fix this terrible mess i put us in.

i have no idea what ^^^ means??

gamma, husband has told me before that he has his questions answered. he asked many quesions and i was open and honest with him. as to the exposure, my husband exposed it to his entire family.

dec, the post was very nicely stated from unwritten. i appreciate you posting it. it really makes me realize that i do need to do so much more before it is too late.

^^^^ means to look at the quote above...it's like pointing to this ^^^^ Make sense?

Did you tell your BH, "I know this sounds crazy, but other than the huge issue we are dealing with, i feel the happiest i have ever been in our marriage. We are closer than ever" or something of that nature?

br, my husband and i both have discussed how in some ways, certain aspects of our marriage are better than before. i am not the only one that feels that way. he has told me the same thing. is that bad??

unwritten, my depression mostly seems to happen when my husband is down/depressed. i get depressed because i know i am the cause of it. i try very hard not to let it show because i don't want my husband to have another issue to deal with. he has enough already on his plate.

No, it's not bad but it also depends on how you say it. Delivery is important. A BS's ears are very sensitive to a WS's words. If you said you felt close to him or closer than you have in a long time that's one thing but if you used words like this: "I know this sounds crazy, but other than the huge issue we are dealing with, i feel the happiest i have ever been in our marriage. We are closer than ever"...as a BS I would be very angry and hurt that you used those words.

When he tells you listen and take notes. Write it all down do you can go back to it.

Do not interrupt. Listen.

Then thank him for being honest. A nice hug and kiss would probably be nice also.

I don't know what this means. YOU don't have a plan? He doesn't feel he should participate in setting a plan? Why?

mb, my husband asked me what my plan was. i told him marriage builders principles, step up my meeting his emotional needs, increase ua, and make amends with his family. he didnt seem satisfied with that. he hasnt actually said anything about his plan. he feels that i should be the one driving the recovery. which i do agree with.

So when he was to sit down and tell you what he needs from you.

What did he say? Did you take notes?

bh, thanks so much for the suggestion of writing it down. i definately took notes! it all prety much boiled down to him seeing me making effort and being proactive (besides the meeting his emotional needs). he liked seeing me make notes. thanks again.

You're welcome.

So now that you know what is your plan?

I wanted to quote Pep's wonderful advice to you earlier in your thread again.

bh, i am stepping up my efforts in driving this revocery train to a happy and fulfilling marriage with my wonderful husband.

So what actions are you going to take?

Are you setting up your UA time? You? Are you making the plans? Doing things he would enjoy?

bh, i am posting on marriage builders, currently reading hnhn, proactively asking him if his needs are being met. i printed up a calendar yesterday to start scheduling ua time. i am currently working on finding a baby sitter(we have never had a babysitter and our families live out of town). i have made plans for our date night next saturday. we are going to do something we have never done before and i think we both would enjoy. recreational activities have never really been an issue for us. we both enjoy much of the same things. we made a list last night of things we can do after the kids go to bed. we have been doing puzzles but are getting burned out on that. is there anything else you suggest i should be doing??

Very good.

So this is all in the past two days since he told you he was done?

Have you asked him today "is there anything I can do for you today?"

bh, i had already starting reading hnhn prior to this and had already made arrangements for our date night next weekend. i have not asked him that question today though.

What are your H's most important needs?

Also, when you are scheduling UA time make sure it is filling the top 4 most intimate EN's: RC, IC, AF and SF. Are you doing this?

The UA time can be difficult to meet with little ones. But it is CRITICAL that you meet this UA time.

We balked at the 20-25 hrs of UA time weekly, how is this possible??? Yet when we got serious about recovery, we DID it whether we thought it was possible long term or not.

And..we learned to LOVE the UA time. It has had, IMO, the greatest affect on our recovery thus far. Now when we don't get enough, we can tell immediately. If we do, we can also tell. It has an enormous impact on our attitudes and sense of connection.

So scheduling your UA time with your H is very, very important. Do NOT, no matter what excuse you find for yourself, let it slip.

And you need to be the driver of that. Maybe some BS's can be the driver, but I could not and it sounds like your H needs you to be the driver. Do it.

This is really a win/win. This is not 'work' for you. Consider when you first start dating someone you really like, all the effort you expend for them. All the time you think about them. All the time you want to spend with them. It is mirroring that, and you didn't think of that as 'work' did you? At the end, you get to spend great connective time developing an amazing relationship with your H, win/win.

Does your H post on this forum?

unwritten, i also believe that UA is extremely impportant and can definately tell when we don't get enough of it. my husbands most important needs are o & h, admiration,conversation, and sf. that was the questinnaire filled out a couple months ago. tonight i am going to ask him fill out another.

unwritten, my husband does post as 20yearhistory. i have a question, do you think it is a good idea for my husband to read my posts? when i originally started posting, i told him i wasnt sure if i wanted him to and asked him not to read them yet. he went anyways and read them and was critical. it brought back memories pre-affair when he was critical of me and that was a huge love buster. therefore i stopped posting. when i started posting again, he promised me several times that he would not read it. he told me friday that he started to read it but then felt guilty and quit. is it a good idea for him to read??

What? You will tell complete and utter strangers what you are thinking and feeling, but question whether you should leave your S out of it? Really?

Dec, we usually advise spouses in crisis NOT to read each otherr's posts until they're ready.

princess.... I wonder why this is on a public forum then, and who are the "we" that you refer to? I thought Dr. Harley has a principle as follows:


The Policy of Radical Honesty

Reveal to your spouse as much
information about yourself as you know;
your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.

"We" are the posters that have been around awhile and have seen what happens when a thread falls apart when both spouses are posting on it.

There is "radical honesty" in the fact that her BH KNOWS she's posting. We are just advising him not to read so he avoids feeling bad, needing to defend himself and/or feeling the need to jump in and either defend or attack her or our posts. It's just a suggestion. As you say, it's a public forum and he's free to do as he chooses.

When couples post on the same thread it often ends up in a discussion/arguments about facts and trying to get the board to take one side or the other in an argument. That doesn't help the couple and it often results in their "support" moving on to other less complicated threads as "we" ....behind computer screens are in no position to really determine who's fact pattern is closer to the truth. It's much easier "coaching" one perspective at a time.

That being said...I did read my wife's post years ago and we discussed the responses a lot. I just didn't post on her help threads.

Mr. Wondering

Well the four topics discussed by Dr. Harley in Radical Honesty would appear to me to be much more than simply providing selective disclosure such as noticing your S of MB posts but requiring they not be read. I'll read Dr. Harley's articles again on this subject. And this wasn't a question about threading, rethreading, counterthreading or what have you. It involved full disclosure between H and W, or at least I thought so.

Hello dec. Full discloure is exactly what you are stating. The problem comes in when I have told my spouse everything and he isn't ready to hear it, gets mad, won't listen, doesn't understand the deeper real meaning, can't empathize, doesn't care, etc... What these threads are, for most of us seeking help, are to help US deal with and learn to solve/change the problems. If my husband were able to deal with issues, face them, etc.. I wouldn't be here. Also, I have so many issues that I need to get through, that I am looking for help in thinking through them. Again, I wouldn't be here seeking the help if my husband were able to handle these discussions. He can't face what he has done, or just plain doen't care. You may be able to face things, own them, committ to stopping behaviors that are hurting your marriage, and it seems common sense that these things should be talked about with you. But for someone like me, I am seeking the advice from a forum FULL of experienced people who can tell me what I need to hear, b/c my husband just can't be the one. He isn't there for himself!!! If HE read this, there would be fights, pride, ego, everything in the way b/c the truth is more than he can handle. Hope this helps.

I have to disagree. I believe that the BS SHOULD be reading the WS's posts. And this is what Herpapabear said to my H about that.


Originally Posted By: Kiss MY WIFE READS ALL OF MY POSTS SO I FEEL THAT I HAVE TO WATCH WHAT I POST BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO UPSET HER OR MAKE HER MAD.

"Very telling!

You admit that you're not willing to be honest about your thoughts and feelings.

My wife would have handed me my a$$ for such a statement. I'm betting your wife will be none to happy either.


If you are on the forums for her, then the least you could do is prove it by being honest and transparent.

And for the record, my wife followed my posts very closely to make sure my words were lining up with my actions. And it was a very wise thing for her to do!
Good grief man, what do you think you can say on this forum that is any worse than betraying your wife IRL with another woman?? <shaking my head> "

PS I agree that they shouldn't POST on each other's threads.

thanks to all for your input/suggestions as to letting spouse read post.

I am more discussing the mindset of a BS whose H is still in deceiptful, gaslighting fog!!! There is nothing that I have written here that I haven't told my husband. When I tell him how what he does hurts me, he twists it. If a husband is ready to be honest and will accept what is written and be respectful, definately read their spouses posts, but if he can't own it, then it is best that he stay away until he can. I just posted on another thread of a betrayed spouse who was seeking help and advice where she won't post on her own thread anymore b/c HE couldn't handle it!!! She needs this support, and doen't feel safe in putting her feelings out there b/c he is hurting her with her words.

OK...somebody is an engineer type thinker...otherwise must be a lawyer, accountant or a doctor.

Anyway....there is no "requiring" anything. Just what experience tells us works best. I'm not a big fan of the 'don't read" advice simply because I know there's no way I wasn't gonna read what the board posted to my then-ww back in 2005. But some spouses just can't handle reading their spouses posts without getting upset and angry. If you can't handle it...I recommend you don't read. Technically, I guess a couple working the program could poja the issue.

Radical Honesty is a recovered marriage concept. We are attempting to provide peer coaching by answering individual posters questions in the manner Dr. Harley would when doing individual marital coaching in his office. Until both spouses are on-board with MB, there is no ONE-WAY obligation for Radical Honesty which includes requiring a spouse trying to save their marriage to tell the other spouse all the stuff they are doing to accomplish that. For example, common sense tells us a betrayed spouse doesn't owe his/her THEN WAYWARD SPOUSE radical honesty such as "I'm about to expose your affair to the world" or "I'm about to clean out our bank accounts to protect our marital assets".

I think we should avoid cluttering up this posters thread with our off-topic discussion about a SUGGESTION. If you have further questions...email me or start a thread in other topics.

Mr. Wondering

clearmind. What are the two of you doing about him being critical of you? How is he critical?


I have seen many very good dialogs here about DJ's and think the both of you could gain from the collective voice.

20yr has had many excellent posts...I know he is on board with MB and seems very sincere about recovery. It is a long and difficult road. Don't abandon the excellent advice here...face the issues head on.

ETA: I was critical of my own FWH after the FR. MB taught me how to deal with that.

pf, my husband has been working on himself with the criticism, ao, and dj. he has been great with not being critical of me. that criticism with the posts does not happen often anymore. as to the ao and dj, that happens about every 3 weeks or so and that is only when he brings up the A. which is totally understandable and i feel i do deserve that. after it does happen, he realizes later and apologizes for it.

Thanks for responding to my post clearmind. I hope that you continue to read here even if you don't post. I cannot say enough about the wealth of experience and wisdom you will find.

I saw this on another thread just minutes ago:




I found that I was able to stop the AO's and DJ's once I stopped talking about the affair.

Have you answered all his questions about your affair?

Listen to these clips of Dr. H telling a BW to quit talking about the affair.
Radio clip about stop talking about the affair
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

pf, even if i dont post, i am continuing to read the threads. i find them very informative and helpful. the veterans definately know what they are talking about. my husband found a great thread, i think it was posted by sunnydintx, about having bad moments and bringing up the past. it is something he is working hard on. he thinks the more secure he feels the better he can handle the past. i am working hard to give him that security back.

bh, my husband and i were talking last night about that. he said he has all his questions answered. thanks for the links. im at work right now but plan to listen to them later.

bh, i tried listening to the radio clips at home but they wouldnt play. i will try again tonight. i told my husband about them. he didnt think it would really be beneficial to me since he was the one having the issue of letting go of the past, not me. i told him i thought they may give me more insight on the issue.

I think they will benefit you both.

Make sure you update your flash player.

This is glaring at me and I keep coming back to it. Have you thought about MB coaching?

pf, my husband and i have discussed MB coaching. when we get to a point where we think we cant handle the issues and cant get the answers from this forum, it will be a definate consideration.

Individual coaching can add up $$ fast, but your husband may benefit like I did from just a couple of these sessions with S. Harley. You may also want to consider the online coaching program which is a fixed cost and all encompassing. Just a thought.

dec, thanks for your suggestions. nice to hear that the coaching is beneficial and has helped someone.

this question is for the veterans in recovery (or whomever else may know):

is it possible for the betrayed spouse to ever get the sense of security back?

See if this article from Dr. Harley is helpful:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8121_trust.html

Not sure if "trust" and "security" mean the same thing to you or not.

markos, thanks for the link. it does give me hope that it is possible!

this question is for the vets:
what else can i be doing to help ease my husbands sadness/depression during times when he is thinking about the A? he has been reading threads on this same issue, about not bringing the past into the present. he is working on that and doing great. but i feel so helpless. i want to do something to help him through those times.
another issue, my husband said this morning that he feels we had a setback. it is regarding radical honesty. for the past few months, my husband started a discipline with the kids that i wasn't sure if i agreed with. in the past, i have always trusted him in that area so i wasnt sure if i was being over sensitive with the new discipline. this morning it happened with our youngest. he could tell something was wrong with me and he asked me. i told him i didnt like the discipline. he got very upset saying that i should of told him and that he shouldn't of had to ask me what was wrong. he said i was holding things in and resentment will build and we will be like pre-A. he also said he didnt know if i was holding anything else in. i said that i am not. he feels we have had a set back in our recovery. are these set backs normal during recovery stage?

I see a lot of problems here.

Yes, you should be radically honest with your husband. Dr. Harley's wording is "reveal to your spouse as much about yourself as you know." Sometimes you don't know how you feel yet!

Your husband can help by developing the habit of asking you how you feel about what he is doing with the children. Your children should absolutely be parented by the policy of joint agreement. They will be better raised if both of your perspectives are brought to bear.

When you say your husband "got very upset" -- was he having an angry outburst? Angry outbursts are a MARRIAGE KILLER. Neither one of you should become demanding, disrespectful, or angry, and because either one of you might sometimes make mistakes, neither one of you should think that it is okay to become demanding, disrespectful, or angry just because the other one made a mistake.

For example, you weren't radically honest -- his response to that should not be an angry outburst!!!

Dr. Harley says to be careful not to become demanding, disrespectful, or angry even if one of you breaks the rules Marriage Builders supplies for a good marriage:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

Could you put your husband's posting name in your signature? I'll go look for his thread.

Set backs are certainly normal in forming new habits. Old habits can always come back.

What is important is that both of you are actively engaged in treating the setback as a learning experience and evaluating/revising your plans to not repeat mistakes. For example, if he had an angry outburst here, he needs to take that into account and make sure the circumstances are covered in his plan for avoiding angry outbursts.

Generally speaking, any statement we make to our spouse that includes the word "should" is a disrespectful judgment. This statement is disrespectful. Of course you want to be honest with your husband, but sometimes it is going to take a while to figure out how you feel, sometimes you will not know how you feel.

Dr. Harley says his wife Joyce sometimes finds out about something he knew and forgot to tell her, and she ends up having to ask. She does not use this as an excuse to become disrespectful toward him!! Your husband should not lecture you if you slip up.

1) Don't fight (don't be demanding, disrespectful, or angry). Avoid fights like they were nuclear warfare. Because they are.

2) Read what Dr. Harley has to say in His Needs Her Needs about the friends and enemies of good conversation. Practice the friends and avoid the enemies. One of the enemies is dwelling on the mistakes of the past or present.

3) Most important:
SPEND FIFTEEN HOURS A WEEK, WITHOUT AWAKE CHILDREN, BEFORE ELEVEN P.M., GIVING EACH OTHER YOUR UNDIVIDED ATTENTION AND MEETING THE INTIMATE EMOTIONAL NEEDS: RECREATIONAL COMPANIONSHIP, INTIMATE CONVERSATION, AFFECTION, AND SEXUAL FULFILLMENT. Spend 25-30 hours if either one of you is unhappy. Schedule recreational activities during which you can engage in enjoyable conversation the whole time, and practice those friends of good conversation.

markos,

it wasnt quite an angry outburst, but he was definately upset! he did call me later and apologized for his reaction. he did agree with what i was saying about the discipline but that was overridden by my non compliance with radical honesty.
my husband posts as 20yearhistory.

markos,
thanks so much for all your helpful advice. i know we need to work on upping our ua time to get my husband to fall back in love with me.
sometimes it just seems when you have a little setback, another thing will happen to add to it.

When the setbacks happen, it is important to stay calm and rational and stick to the plan, because your emotions will start prompting you to take actions that are destructive to your marriage.

UA time: do you have the worksheets for this? I would encourage you to get them, and fill them out weekly.

markos,
can i get the ua worksheet from this site?

Clearmind,

Glad you're putting in the work. Remember this takes time. Your 15 year anniversary is coming up. Any plans to make that a bang?

Do you have the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love? That has the worksheets.

Aldo have you seen this by Mel?
The critical importance of UA time

Also I just read back.

About the discipline on the kids. POJA.

Did you POJA this? If you don't like the decision you made before you need to sit down and POJA this.

Can you do this?

brainhurts,
thanks to the link from mel. i will check that out. dont have that workbook, but probably a good idea to get that one.
as to our anniversary, we made reservations to a five star hotel downtown. this will be our first anniversary since recovery. not sure what will happen?? i.e. our emotions and feelings about that day. for those who have been through the first anniversary, what should i expect? im sure the BS will have bittersweet feelings. how can i make it a great anniversary and not have the bad feelings come?

brainhurts,
as to POJA, we usually don't have an issue with that. we are pretty agreeable and find solutions that make us both happy. in the past, i have always trusted the discipline that my husband did. when he started the new discipline, i was trying to figure out if i was just being over sensitive, as sometimes mothers are! after we talked about it, he agreed with me that it really wasn't the right thing to do. he does not have any problem to stop that discipline.

brainhurts,
as to the first anniversary since recovery, i have thought of the idea of making the day i moved back home as the "new" anniversary date for the "new" marriage. have any others changed their anniversary dates?

Awesome posts, Markos!!! I thought the same thing when I read these posts: they are not getting in enough UA time. Please schedule your UA time, clearmind, religiously. This will make the greatest impact in the fastest time. The best way to do this is to schedule 4 - 4 hour dates a week out of the home. Can you do this?

The UA worksheet is in the back of the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook. You can tear it out and make copies. It is an excellent workbook that can help you put your marriage back together.

And I would not suggest changing your anniversary date because the day you moved back home will be reminder of the tragedy. I would do everything to avoid any reminders.

p.s. I wanted to add that I think you guys are doing great, clearmind. It is never easy to recover a marriage, but you are on the right track. If you find you continue to struggle, I would strongly suggest you sign up for the MB online program. But if you are diligent in your UA time, avoiding lovebusters and meeting the top 4 intimate EN's, you should be fine.

I would give your feelings a lot of credit. Both feelings and logic have an important part in the raising of children, and both husband and wife have an important perspective in their raising. Your children have half of the DNA of each of you, after all. I passionately believe that the unique perspective that comes from blending both the mother and the father's perspective in each individual family is the best possible way to raise children.

So I would be careful of labeling yourself as "over sensitive," and I would encourage your husband to be even more careful of that! Give your feelings credit, as they may be telling you something important. If you are uncomfortable with something, you can always put it off and give it time to see if you become comfortable with it after you've had time to think it through. During that time you may decide it's a good idea, or you may come up with an alternative that you both like better. Another thing you can do, that Dr. Harley sometimes suggests for husbands and wives trying to persuade each other, is offer to try something a few times and see how you feel about it. Afterward, you can know if it's something you'll be comfortable with long term or not.

Sometimes I find out Prisca is not enthusiastic about something I want to do in the raising of our children. Sometimes this makes me feel emotional and disappointed, or worried. But when I am calm, I think that that feeling, on my part, is irrational: there are always lots of good alternative methods for solving childrearing problems, and I know that my perspective alone isn't near as good for our children as mine + Prisca's.


He sounds like a great guy.

melodylane,

we are still trying to get in the requisite 20 hours/week. it is so hard with both of us working full time and not having family in town to help with child care. im still waiting on someone to give me the number of her babysitter. and i don't trust child care companies on the internet, even if they do have back ground checks. we are doing what we can but i know that is not enough.

thanks for the statment on changing my anniversary. i didnt even think of it that way.

melodylane,
thanks so much for your encouragement. i dont know what i would of done or what would of happened to our marriage without the help of you, all the other vets, and marriage builders. i can not thank everyone enough. you all have truly changed my life and my marriage. i am a true believer of this program.
thanks again.

markos,
i agree with you that both perspectives are better than one when raising kids. my husband and i do agreee on the majority of the issues on child raising. but sometimes issues do come up and we plan to use POJA.

and yes, he is a great guy!

my 15th wedding anniversary is coming up in a few weeks. this will be the first one since recovery. we have already made plans but now my husband says he doesn't even feel like celebrating, feels like part of our marriage was a lie. what should i do?? cancel what we have planned or should we go ahead and try to get through it? would that be better for our recovery?

What did you have planned, our of curiosity? A trip somewhere? A weekend away?

marital bliss,
we dont have too much planned at this point, only reservations at a 5 star hotel downtown. i wanted to do something for the entire weekend but he didn't want to be away from the children for 2 nights. last night he told me the only time he feels totally safe is when he is with the children.

How much UA time are the two of you getting in each week?

marital bliss,
we are getting about 15 hours a week of ua. definately not enough. i initiate every night, but sometimes he just isn't into it. my husband posts under 20yearhistory. he recently posted his thoughts on ua. last night we had a date night which by the end of the night, we had a great time and laughed more than we have in a long time. but it didn't start off as that. after i dropped the kids off with mil, he said he wanted to pick up the kids and be with them. after we talked for about a hour, (he had things on his mind), he decided after all that he wanted to go on date and we ended up having a wonderful time.

Hmm..
How long have you been getting even 15 hours? Are these hours spend away from the children? It sounds to me like your husband is avoiding being with you in favor of his children. Has he always preferred spending family time over spending one-on-one time with you?

I see this a lot with couples I know - they are living a child-centered life. They don't understand that it is detrimental to their marriage to do so. I told one of them once that their baby daughter was NOT their main priority - their marriage was. They looked at me like I had jack rabbits hopping out of my ears, LOL!

I think it would be great to see the two of you get away from the kids for the weekend to celebrate a covenant that has withstood a huge storm. I know you're still in the process of recovery, but you are recovering together. That's cause for celebration.

I haven't checked on 20years lately. Has he been posting?

marital bliss,
we have been getting about 15 hours since we started recovery. most of it has been 2 hours each night after kids go to bed. we have date night every other weekend. my husband said last night we were "shipping" the kids off when we do that. he has not always preferred spending family time over one-on-one time. when they were smaller, he was the one that arranged the overnights and i was the one that cried whenever the kids left. i miss them terribly now when they leave but i know the importance of ua. i know it is vital to recovery. my husband agrees with me but when he is having a down time, he said he needs to be with the kids and that the kids deserved the family time.
20yearhistory posted a couple days ago about ua and his feelings on it.

Would he not agree that the kids deserve a healed and whole family?

Sorry, clearmind - I should really be posting this to him. I'll hop over to his thread

marital bliss,
my husband does think that the kids deserve a whole and happy family. he couldnt stand the thought of the kids growing up in a broken home, neither could i. that was the main reason we decided to reconcile. but when my husband is going through the down and tough days, that is when he feels he needs the kids the most. last night he was having a tough day and he told me that the kids deserved the family time more than i deserved ua. we talked it through and the evening turned out great but he does have his moments, which i do understand. what i put him through changed him and he is trying to process that.

I've posted to him, clear. Hopefully he'll agree with what I've said.

thanks for your concern marital bliss!

Clearmind,
The critical importance of UA time
Can you and 20Year sit down and schedule the UA time? And then schedule family time?

CM,

This is your first anniversary to past while working on recovery. It's going to be hard, at this point, for you husband to honor it as you like.

It's going to be more important for you to concentrate on proper UA time and rebuilding Romantic Love in your marriage, then to honor a single day which has had it's meaning muddied.

Whatever affection or plans you may have had for a single, special day, should be something you two are putting into practice every day. Those plans were likely what real UA time should look like.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5044a_qa.html

brainhurts,
i just ordered the workbook, 5 steps to romantic love. hopefully i will get soon!

marcos,
thanks for the link. very informative and reinforces how important ua is.

Good job on ordering the book. I think you'll love it.

Have you heard this one? If you want the previous call from this couple let me know.
Dr. Harley finds out that they aren't following the program and that's why the BW is still struggling.

Radio Clip
Segment #2
Segment #3

brainhurts,
for some reason i am not able to open the links you just sent me or the ones you sent a couple weeks ago. my husband tried to figure it out but it still wouldnt play. is there a way i can find that particular clip myself?

HAve you made sure you have the latest version of flash player? Also trying downloading firefox.

Have 20years look into this with you, also if you guys can't figure it out.
Trouble listening to radio clips:Try this

What's up? How are things going?

brainhurts,
we are still working on getting more ua time. i think i have finally found a babysitter. my husband and i will be trying her out this weekend. i set it up and my husband said he wanted to plan what we do. (last date i had planned). im hoping that now we can get the 20 hours a week that is much needed. he told me this weekend that he was not in love with me. i am working very hard on trying to get the hours in. this past week it didnt really happen. my husband hasn't been feeling well so our time together wasnt what it should be. i am still waiting on the workbook to be delivered. hopefully this week.
we also had another setback. i responded to a text from our daughters teacher on our home computer. i also texted his mom. i forgot to tell my husband i did those 2 things. he found out about the teacher email from our sent messages and found out about me texting his mom through his mom. he was not happy about him having to find these things out. i wasnt hiding it, i just totally forgot to tell him. he thought i wasn't being transparent and open. we discussed it and everything is okay now. but another setback nonetheless.

brainhurts,
in addition to 20yearhistory telling me that he wasnt in love with me, he also said he wondered if too much damage has been done. he is very worried that i will change my mind about staying in the marriage. i told him i will not. a happy lasting marriage with him is what i want. he said that i said that before (when we were first married) and how is it different this time. i told him we have a plan this time (marriage builders) and that will make all the difference. we both know what to do to have a wonderful marriage.

Ok so what are you going to do to remember to tell him about the things like the teacher and his mom?

So he needs for you to tell him and you forgot?

Can you send a quick text and say something like "tonight I need to tell you about the email exchange with DD's teacher". He needs to see you care and are being 100% transparent.

When is he getting into the doctor to check his T levels?

Also are you asking him everyday "what do you need from me? Do you feel protected by me today?"

The 20 hrs will help. What are you doing in those 20 hrs to meet the 4 top EN?

brainhurts,
we have agreed to a plan to help me remember to tell 20yearhistory everything. we decided that i will send him a quick text just like you suggested.
20yearhistory finally called his doctor this morning. of course, no openings until next week .
i ask 20year "is there anything i can do for you today?" pretty much everyday.
as to our UA, we do activiites we both enjoy and we talk. we definately feel closer. we usually have productive ua time, but just not enough. im hoping that will change soon!

It will change if you can up that UA time.

Are you meeting SF need during your UA time?

What are his top EN's?

brainhurts,
i am meeting his SF during ua. this really hasn't been a problem for us. his top needs were O & H, Admiration, Conversation, and SF. i asked him a month ago to fill out a new questionnaire for me. he still hasn't completed it yet. i have asked him 2-3 times since then about it. he says he needs to do it. but hasn't. I do feel his top ENs are probably the same. Last week was a hard week for us in fulfilling each others needs. 20yearhistory has been sick and I hurt my back and had trouble moving. both of us are starting to feel better so this week we should be back at fulfilling those needs.

How are you asking him?

"I would love it if you filled out....

Or
"How would you feel filling out...

Hope he is getting into the doctor and you both are feeling better.

How are you doing on letting him know of all your contacting with others through the day?

How are you asking him?

"I would love it if you filled out....

Or
"How would you feel filling out...

Hope he is getting into the doctor and you both are feeling better.

How are you doing on letting him know of all your contacting with others through the day? [/quote]

brainhurts,
i can't remember exactly how i worded the reminders, probably something like "i would like for you to finish the questionnaire". i know it was said respectfully though.
both of us are starting to feel better. 20year stopped smoking on sunday so a few days were a bit edgy for him but getting better. he does say he is feeling better.
as to letting him know about my contacts during the day, our new procedure of me texting 20year has been working.
this saturday we will be having our first babysitter for our date night. tyring to up the ua hours!

Keep doing the work and you will reap the benefits.

Here are some excellent quotes.

brainhurts,
thanks so much for the encouragement. it is indeed hard work but i know it will definately be worth it and our marriage will be better than ever!
right now we are still dealing with the triggers. 20year is doing mcuh better with them, the down times not as often and not nearly as long. i wished there was more i could do for him.

What are the triggers? You can help by eliminating them.

What are they?

brainhurts,
today the trigger was: i work for a judge and i was in court this morning. i had told 20year last night that i was in morning court and it was going to be busy. this morning before i went into court, i texted him to tell him i was going into court. he emailed me a few times and i didnt respond because it was a very busy session and i wasn't able to. i responded about 1.5 hours later and by then he said he was depressed and felt like sh*t. he hadnt heard from me in over an hour. he said he was triggered.
it seems triggers happen about 3 times a week. he said the down time doesnt last as long as it used to and the down isnt as down.

So how long does he need you to respond by?

Is there any way you can step out and send a quick text "still in court"?

Dr. Harley has said if he is with clients and Joyce calls he will excuse himself to take her call.

Is there any way you can do this for him?

brainhurts,
i text him when i leave for work and when i get to the office. i text him about every hour in the morning. call him when i get some lunch. text him when i get back to the office. text him every hour in the afternoon. then call him on the way home. that is what a general day looks like. but sometimes, work does get in the way, like today. sometimes the court session is hectic and i am not able to at least email, but that doesn't happen too often. i should have at least sent a quick email that read "busy, will email later". but i didnt. i thought that when i told him it was going to be a busy morning that he would understand. but i guess that was a dj on my part.
i cant remember the other instances where he is triggered (it has been a long week and my brain isnt thinking). i will post them as they come along.

Well it sounds like you already know. He needs some kind of contact from you at least every hour.

So what have you said to him since this happened?

It takes time, friend. He needs to see you doing the consistency and work.

Remind me who your OM was again. Did the affair happen when you were working?

brainhurts,
i have apologized and asked him if there was anything i can do for him.
my OM was a friend from high school, 20+ years ago. we connected on the evil facebook. we communicated through facebook and email during work hours.

it is so hard seeing my husband depressed. he generally is an upbeat and positive person. it is hard especially knowing that i am the cause.

So you see why not responding to him is a trigger, correct?

What did he say you could do when you asked him?

brainhurts,
yes, i can see why it is a trigger for him.

when i texted him after it happened, he replied "he just wanted to be left alone" or words to that effect.
this evening when i asked, he replied "just no pressure". i wasnt sure what that meant and it really wasnt the time to ask. i dont feel i am someone who pressures.

more triggers this weekend. the first one was my husband was watching the movie Horrible Bosses. in that movie there is adultry. the second trigger was the song "Jesse's Girl". it came up on my ipod. the actual song wasn't the trigger but the lyrics that talk about infidelity. (Needless to say, i removed that song from my ipod ASAP). it seems everywhere we turn around, adultry is talked about, sung about, etc. Seems we just can't get away from it. A couple years ago, i wouldn't have thought twice about it, but now, i think it is horrible how freely it is discussed as no big deal.

clearmind, it is AMAZING how many movies glorify adultery. You just have to get real choosy about what you watch and pay careful attention to the reviews.

I told your husband and I will tell you this: you guys will start seeing a big difference in your marriage when you start getting in your UA time. That will make the fastest, greatest love bank deposits of anything. And I don't mean sitting on the couch while you are exhausted after you put the kids to bed, but actually going out on 4 dates per week.

Did you read my posts to him?

melodylane,
i did read the posts on 20year thread and thanks for motivating him to increase the ua! he needed that kick in the behind. i have been telling him that i have been getting many posts about the importance of ua but i dont think he really "got it" until the vets posted the same to him. he told me at lunch that he wanted to actually schedule our ua for the week and to brainstorm on how we can get the required 20 hours in. thanks again for all your help! you are making a difference.

Glad to hear it!

Ready for the big UA weekend coming up?

brainhurts,
i am looking forward to the weekend! crossing my fingers that there will not be any triggers. i am relieved that 20year is excited about it also. as you may know, he wasn't too enthusiastic at the beginning. tomorrow is our actual 15th anniversary. i took someone else's advice on not buying a card (since probably not an appropriate one in the store anyways) and i am making him a card. i am hoping for good feelings tomorrow!

There will be. You are working the program and he is also. I have noticed his enthusiasm is there. Just keep filling his love bank and eliminate any love busters.

You're doing well. Keep it up!!
So let the program do it's job.

Have you read this? Maybe read it with 20. Managing Memories and Dealing with Triggers

brainhurts,
thanks for the encouragement! it really really helps. 20year has been so much more enthusiastic this past week. i am loving it!
i have read that post from 20year's thread. very good info! but sometimes it is easier said than done. i am pretty good at redirecting memories but the post will help me help 20year better.

I think you two will be a MB success story.

thanks brainhurts, i feel that we will be a success also! a long happy marriage together is what we want more than anything. i believe if both of us do our part, we can achieve that.

Yes you will.
Have you seen this?

brainhurts,
i can definately see the correlation with dieting! this MB program should be taught to those going into the marriage counseling business. i believe in it 100%. i feel that i know so much more about marriages than many other married couples. i see a lot of unhappy marriages, but they don't know any different. i was one of those people until MB. i feel i now have the key to have a happy marriage.

Wow! This sounds exactly like the conversation my H and I had last night. You don't even know how much our stories parallel. I have read your entire thread today and gotten so much insight and confort in it.

clearmind,

My H and I had a very honest yet heart crushing(on my end) conversation last night. I had to get on MB and talk about it because I did not know where else to turn and knew that I would get the best advice on this site.

Your H responded to my post and directed me to your thread. I feel like reading your thread is like reading my own story and it truly gives me hope that both of us can make our marriages the best using MB.

My H is a fairweather MBer. He is still not completely on board with everything. I am trying not to pressure him but at the same time know our marriage will not be complete without both of us on board.

I kindly directed him to both you and your H's post in hopes that he would and could see that there are people just like us out there that are trying to rebuild their love. I can't force him to read and I know that he will probably never post but I did suggest it.

I just wanted to thank both of you for being so open and honest. I wish you both the best and keep up with MB no matter what.

15years,
sorry i haven't responded to your post yet. i was wanting to read your thread first and i am still going through it.

Clearmind,

I have two threads on Surviving and Affair and one in Recovery. Oh the Irony is my second thread but should give you the just of what has been going the past few months.

Happy New-versary.

Have fun during the big weekend. Good job on the card!

recovery is very much a rollercoaster ride, but not a fun one. you will have peaks and valleys. this weekend we had both. it started on friday afternoon. an incident happened that brought back all the memories of dday to my husband. the feelings continued for 24 hours. we had made plans for our "new"versary for saturday night to stay at a nice hotel, nice dinner, and comedy club. saturday morning my husband wanted to cancel the reservations. i tried but it was too late and we would of had to pay anyways. later in the day my husband said since we have to pay anyways we may as well go as planned. we ended up having a wonderful time and got some great ua. sunday was a good feeling day also. today is a different story. he seems withdrawn and went home early from work to get some alone time. we are back in the valley again. i cannot give up fighting for my marriage. i know we can have a wonderful future together. i will continue fighting for us and i plan to show him that i will not give up.

help!
my husband is dealing with anger and resentment. 20year told me that he hates me and cant stand looking at me. then he corrected hisself and said that he hated what i did. he told me that he didnt love me. i dont know what to do. i know it is not anything that has happened in the present. he is bringing up the past and cant get the images and emails out of his head. he does not understand how i could of done what i did. he said that his back is hurting from all the knives. i dont know what to do!! it seems that we are on the right road to recovery but then all of a sudden, it seems like we haven't gotten anywhere.

if my earlier posts paint 20year in a bad light, it was not intended as that. i need help in trying to help him through this time. help him through this hell that i have put him through. he is doing his best through this time. the incident i refered to in an earlier post was regarding my boundaries. someone i quasi work with sent me a email with info about a band. i was talking with a co-worker about music and he chimed in the conversation. he sent that email later. i immediately told my husband about it. in hindsight, i should of immediately emailed the guy back about that it was inappropriate to send me that and that i was married and not to send me anything personal again. i learned a valuable lesson. my husband and i discussed it and how i should handle if anything like that happens in the future. i realize my terrible mistake. that mistake was what brought all the past memories into the present. he is worried about my boundaries.

cm, this is kind of outside my comfort zone, but I have noticed something recently. You guys were making some pretty good progress, and during that time we didn't hear from 20y for a while, except on his thread, and kind of sporadic at that.

Lately though, he's been posting to others to help them with what they are having to deal with and go through. I find it quite admirable that he is willing to do this, but is it possible that this may be the catalyst for the excessive triggers he's now's experiencing?

I recall when I first found this place, I was triggered left and right by most of what I read, and MY last sitch occurred almost 9 years ago! His pain is still new and raw to the bone. If reading some of these stories can trigger ME so long after the fact, I have to wonder if it's possible that this may be the cause of the increased triggers.

Just a thought.

He needs you to protect your love bank from anyone else making deposits but him.

So did you send the email?

that does make sense. i can understand how that can be a trigger. 20year has read this and i am sure he will be giving it some serious thought.

i did send the email.

My H and I are both reading your and 20 years threads. I feel your pain and I am sure my H feels exactly what 20 is feeling. In fact we both agree that there a number of similarities in our stories.

The high school that I teach at is a major trigger for my H. The bad news is that my son goes here as well and plays a number of sports. My H wants to support him but last night was a very painful example of how hard it is for him to come to the school.

I have offered to switch jobs, districts, schools, occupations and my H keeps telling me no but I last night I could tell that he was disturbed just being at the school.


I feel the very same way you do, that everytime we reach a peak, something happends to drive us back down in the valley. I like you are willing to do anything to show my H that he is the only one for me forever. I just keept telling myself that it is going to take time and effort on my part...not just in the short run but in the long run.

My goal is to improve both of us and our marriage but like everyone on here says...it starts with your side of the fence.

I wish you the best and 20 years gave me some wonderful advice to relay to my H on my thread. I know that he is trying very hard as well as my H.

I wish you the best!!!

XVY

Time for Radical Honesty;

"Dear, I can't help but to notice the pain in your face related to my work location. Because I love you, and put you before anything else, I am going to get out of there. Whatever small gains we make are not worth the pain and loss I can see on your face every time you get near there."

Clearmind,

How's it going?

How's your UA time?

it acutually has been going pretty well. these last couple days have been good days. it seems when the bad moments happen, they don't last as long and not nearly as bad. i feel that shows that 20year is healing. he has said that he is starting to feel safer and his gaurd is starting to come down. he is starting to fall back in love with me! UA time is making all the difference. i know we still aren't getting the necessary 20 hours in but we have upped it from before. we are having date time every weekend, which it only used to be every other week. that time for us to be together is the key to our recovery. i am still hoping to plan a weekend getaway for us in the near future.

Clearmind,

I am thinking about you and 20 always! UA time is definitely something that Mr. XVY and I need. I printed up the worksheet that ML sent me and am going to purchase the notebook this week.

I wish you the best and both you and 20 have helped both the Mr. and I see that we are not alone in the ugly world of A's!!!

thanks 15years! i am wishing the best for you and your husband, too. recovery is very hard. the hardest thing i ever had to do. i know it will be worth it in the end. that is what i have to focus on during the bad times, which i know there will be more to come. thinking about the future and how great it has the ability to be helps me get through those times. also having the support from this forum helps. a lot. if both sides do their part, i only see success. as former waywards, we cannot change the past but we definately have some control over our futures.

update:

numb. in withdrawal. those are the words that my husband has said how he feels. one day he is optimistic about our future and the next day he says he is not in love with me. sometimes even on the same day. we are on a roller coaster of emotions.

we are 1 year into our recovery using the mb program. in early january, my husband gave me an ultimatum. if he didnt feel like i was giving him my best effort of driving our recovery, he was going to ask me to move out. that deadline has recently passed and i am still in the house. for now. he felt i was not driving our recovery. during that time, i thought i was using the program. in hindsight, i realize that i wasn't doing enough. i was slacking. he wanted me to do research on how to better our marriage, become an expert at meeting his needs, monitor how i was doing on meeting his needs, and put out my best effort. he has noticed i am doing that now but the resentment is still there.

last week we updated our emotional needs questionnaires. i have high marks in 8 out of the 10. the 2 that i dont is openness/honesty and intimate conversation. it is something that i am working on and doesn't come easy to me (the openness and conversation). my husband feels that i need to meet all 10 needs for him to be satisfied.

my husband has been having a hard time managing his memories. he knows that he needs to redirect his thoughts but that is easier said than done. it is hard for him to look at me and not think about what i did to him. he has his guard up and still very hurt by my dispicable actions of the A. he is afraid to feel vulnerable and has a wall up. i can't blame him. i would feel the same way if someone brought that tragedy to my life.

even though we are on the roller coaster of recovery, i am thankful everyday that my husband is giving me another chance and grateful that i am still in the house with my family. i have hope that we will be a success story. we are definatley having bumps in the road but we are learning how to deal with them as they come. it is not all bad, we do have good days and those are the days we see glimpses of how wonderful our life together can be.


i would appreciate any advice/suggestions from the vets.



also, should this thread be moved to the recovery forum?

Clearmind,

I've been wondering how you and 20 were doing. I know he has left the boards and said he wasn't going to post anymore, but I wish he would change his mind.

I have to ask. How much UA time are you getting? What are you doing during that time?

What are you doing to meet his top EN?

What are your top EN?

Brainhurts,

ua time is where we are sorely lacking. i know we are not getting the 15 necessary hours. we recently found a new babysitter (the previous one ended up not working out, it was short lived) and hoping that will help out getting the ua time. for the past couple months, when we do spend time together at home, it is usually playing card games or talking about our marriage. when we do go out, it is usually dinner. we have went out for drinks and bowling. i just got tickets to a comedy show that we will put to use soon. sometimes he is not enthusiastic about spending time with me. i can tell he is going through the motions. he has canceled a date night in the past.

his top 2 needs are OH and IC. i am trying to be a more open person. that is something i am working on. im a quiet person and it is a struggle for me to be more talkative. i am trying. seems like a slow process. i have come a long way but still have a long way to go. tomorrow i am ordering something that i think will help with our conversations. it is conversation started cards for couples. as to my honesty, i know i am being honest but i know it is something my husband does not know 100%. i have put myself in the position where he cannot trust what i say. i feel i am being as transparent as possible but he says it is not 100% unless we are together 24/7 which i do understand his point.

my top need is affection. he has a hard time with it. and i don't want him to give me affection if it isnt for real. i understand why he has a hard time.

Clearmind,

Did you ever offer to take a polygraph or get DNA testing for your children?

God Bless
Gamma

gamma,

i have offered several times. the first time (last year), he asked me how was i going to pay for it. he said he wasn't going to finance it. within the past 2 months, i have offered twice. he shrugged both times and said "i dont know".

as to the DNA, the paternity of the kids were never in question.

i have a question about ep's. i have read in an old post, i think it was herpapabear, that you should never have a 1 on 1 meeting with the opposite sex. is that from dr. harley, or is that from herpapabear?

that issue has recently come up with me and my husband. he was asked to a coffee meeting with someone of the opposite sex. in his work, he does have some interactions with females.



i am the fww and not sure what dr. harley would suggest. i have had a couple meetings with my boss (my performance eval and meeting regarding my frequent texting at work). does that count?

Dr. Harley himself will not coach with a female by himself. He will only take couples.

HPB added it to his list of EPs.

Are you asking if it's ok for 20year to do this? And You're wondering if you should?

Also what would make you and 20years comfortable? Have you POJA?

Do you have personal conversations with your boss?

Did you read the advice 20year received about this on his thread?

brainhurts,

I am asking that question because 20year was asked to have a coffee meeting with a female. I told him that I think that is a violation of ep's. that there should be no one on one meetings with the opposite sex. he said he understood it to be no personal conversations. he said I have one on one meetings with my boss. I never thought of it that way. he said he didn't have any issue with me and my boss though. (we do not have personal conversations. my boss is also aware of my infidelity). I trust my husband but I keep coming back to Harley saying that everyone is wired to have an affair and that precautions should be in place.

that is why I asked if that ep came from Harley or herpapabear.

as to melodylanes response, I wasn't sure if coffee meeting would be included with lunch and dinner.

In my marriage, this type of coffee meeting would be a violation of the EP. Why? - because one is alone with a member of the opposite sex. It doesn't really matter what the purpose of the meeting is. If the meeting goes well, LB deposits will be made. Rather than 20year having his meeting, maybe you should not be having private meetings with your boss. That is how my wife had her affair. Now, she can not have an opposite-sex supervisor.

It is the broad interpretation of this EP that makes it extraordinary. If there were lots of exceptions, it would just be an ordinary precaution.

Here's a good clip on EPs.

Radio Clip on EPs

Clearmind. If my DH came to me with that scenario, I would be wondering about the boundaries of a woman who would be open to a "coffee meeting." To me it represents poor boundaries on her part. That makes her dangerous.

This meeting would also set a precedence for more one on one OS meetings and out of office interactions.

brainhurts,
i will listen to this clip when i get home from work. in the past, before i knew about the marriage builders program, i would not have even thought twice about this meeting. i completely trust my husband. i dont want him to have to not do something for work when i was the wayward. the extraordinary cautions are mainly for me. i dont want him to have any more repercussions because of something that i did. but as my husband has pointed out, i have had meetings with my boss, so isnt that the same thing. not sure how i should feel about all this. i dont want anymore undue hardship on my husband.

Would it bother you for your husband to go to a coffee meeting with a woman? If it bothers you, he should not go.

Policy of Joint Agreement: Do not do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse.

If it bothers you for him to go, and he goes anyway, he would be gaining at your expense.

Personally, I would not want my husband going to such a meeting. It sounds too much like a date to me.

I don't get what a "coffee meeting" is. In my job, when I go to talk someone, I decide for myself whether I'm carrying coffee or not. (More likely a soda, actually!) And we definitely wouldn't leave the office to do work, like, say, two people go to Starbucks alone, if that's what this means.

On the other hand, when I bring Prisca a coffee, it makes major love bank deposits. So I would not tend to share coffee with a woman.

Do you feel, in your GUT, a feeling of ENTHUSIASM for your husband having coffee with the woman? Do you look forward to the benefits it will bring you?

If not, you are not enthusiastic, and he should find something else to do. There are plenty of things to do. (Like, say, get some work done. Skipping meetings altogether is usually a great way to get work done, at least at my office.)

It sounds like this meeting is bothering you, or you wouldn't be questioning it. Am I right?

POJA applies here, so you don't need to debate whether it is an EP or not. "I'm not comfortable with you having coffee with her, Dear" should be enough.

BAD IDEA...trust me. My husband and I are in a bad place right now because of this very thing. He recently revealed to me that he has gone on many "business lunches" alone with female coworkers and lied to me about it because he knew I would be upset. He also travels a lot on business and has told me that "nothing happened" but he has aslo gone to clubs with a group of coworkers while traveling on business. It has caused so much distrust because I feel as if he was practically welcoming an affair. There is no reason business matters need to be discussed outside of the office. It just causes so many problems that trust me you don't want. In my husbands industry it requires him to travel often. He is now looking for other career options due to all the trouble that this has caused. Avoid it at all cost. I know business lunches and dinner meetings are common practice in the corporate environment but its like poison to a marriage.

This 'coffee meeting' is getting blown way out of proportion. Some of you make it sound like it is an underhanded attempt by me to have a secret rendezvous. Ridiculous.

I asked her straight up how she felt and always do.

I am a business development director with a major engineering firm and interface with both males/females daily and have for YEARS. The meeting in question is to discuss a major project pending in which this person is my main point of contact and liaison.

Over coffee, in an office, whatever..it is impossible for me to do my job without interfacing with people of all walks of life. I know my boundaries and stick to them.

We have establish boundaries in which I don't (and have no desire) to discuss personal matters with anyone of the opposite sex.

IMO, this is POJA issue between Clearmind and myself.

You are all entitled to your opinions and we respect them.
Thanks for weighing in. If clearmind isn�t comfortable with it, no problem. I will find another way to accomplish the same goal in a different way. End of story.

No, it's not.

I didn't see that.

So you won't be having coffee?

Let me suggest a modification to your post:


The rest of what you said implies that, if Clearmind feels strongly about the subject, she's mistaken and is blowing things out of proportion. That would be really disrespectful to her. She may well find that her feelings go back and forth between "no big deal" and "huge major deal," and I assure you that when she thinks "huge major deal," she is NOT blowing it out of proportion.

The rest of your post is all about subtly explaining why Clearmind should feel that this is no problem. It's a disrespectful lecture.

I completely disagree. We have been exploring this topic together and I actually emailed Joyce this question. Hopefully they address it on the radio program. We would like to get Dr Harley's viewpoint.

I asked her from the beginning 'how do you feel about this?' and would not do it without her enthusiastic agreement. She feels the way she feels and I respect it.

My comments were in response to those responding to this thread, not her.

This is a topic that we want to come to agreement together on for not just this situation but in the future.

So, we discussed it today and I told her, no problem. I will accomplish my goal a different way.

Good.

I am looking forward to hearing their answer. I don't really care what other people's opinions are; I want to know what the proper MB position is.

In my current understanding - No private meetings with the opposite sex is an EP, and so is not subject to POJA, and it applies equally to FWS and FBS alike. If I have that wrong, then I want to know.

20year emailed the question to Joyce regarding one on one meetings with the opposite sex. his questioned was addressed on todays radio program (the last 15 minutes of the program).
Dr. Harleys answer was that business meetings are okay as long as there was no personal talk and if the spouse wasn't uncomfortable with it. it is something that should be POJA'd.

by the way, 20year said it will not be a coffee meaning, but a phone call.

Thanks for the feedback.

Now are you enthusiastic about that?

very much so!
i have been thinking for the past few days about why the one on one meeting bothered me so much. i believe it was because the meeting was at a social casual setting (starbucks) and not in an office environment.

on another note,
how do I move this thread to the recovery forum?

Just hit NOTIFY and ask the MODS to move it.

Welcome to recovery, friend.

Clearmind and 20year,

I listened to your question read and discussed today on the show. It was refreshing to here Dr. H's advice and I can feel where both of you are coming from. My H and I have had several of the same conversations. Even though he no longer works in an environment where he has to work one on one with other females.

In the past whenever I was worried about one on one interaction he would always say that he always kept things business like and knew his boundaries (just like you 20). Being a wayward however Ii did worry because I thought I knew my boundaries as well and saw how quickly a business relationship can turn into something else.

The most refreshing thing that Dr. H said today was that this is definitely something that needs to always be POJA'd. If is is something that you don't feel comfortable sharing with your spouse then it is probably something that would make them feel uncomfortable. I think you guys did a great job POJAing it and making a decision that makes both of you safe.

I am really happy that both of you discussed this and asked Dr. Harley and Joyce about this decision. It was a good lesson for couples trying to recover.

Welcome to Recovery, friend.

Here's your and 20year's question.

Radio Clip About one on one Business meetings with OS

thanks for the clip brainhurts! 20year and i feel we have that issue under control but it is nice to have the clip for future reference.

there is another issue we are currently facing. my parents. there was a big blow up a little over a week ago with my husband and mother. there had been resentment building on my husbands behalf for the past 2 years and it finally came to a head.

So you know what to do when a spouse has an issue with an in law correct?

Have you read the fantastic posts on 20year's thread?

brainhurts,
i have been keeping up on 20's thread. very good information/advice. 20year and i know what we need to do.

tonight we are going to draft a letter to my parents. we are going to state to them what we expect from them if they are to be a part of our lives. i think (hope) they will respect that. we also need to leave the past aside and focus on now and future.

That is a very good idea. How are you going to handle it if they get angry and say no?

prisca,

i guess we will cross that bridge if it does happen. i am very hopeful that it wont get to that. they have 2 awesome grandkids that i am sure they will be considering.

I suggest you come up with a plan now for what you will do, because it's a real possibility. They may not believe you are serious about your boundaries unless you show them you are. And I would be clear upfront with them what you will do if they don't respect your boundaries.

My inlaws had 6 grandkids to consider, and it still took them 2 years of complete silence on our part for them to come around and start respecting me and my marriage.

what should I do when my betrayed husband says he doesn't want to be around me and not sure if he can do this (meaning recovery)?
just this afternoon he texted me that he feels good about us. is it normal/expected to have these opposite feelings when you are 1.5 years into recovery?

I'm confused.

Did he text that he doesn't want to be around you or that he feels good about you?

he texted me this afternoon that he feels good about us today. about an hour ago, he said he doesn't want to be around me and that he is not sure he can do this.

What's going on? Do you know?

we had dropped the kids off with his mother for a date night. we went to dinner and before dinner he said he wanted to buy me a new outfit for tomorrow. after dinner and on our way to the mall, he said he decided he didn't want to buy me anything and he didn't want to be around me. I asked if I did anything. he said not today. he then said he wasn't sure if he could do this. we didn't have any disagreements at dinner or any heavy talk.

clearmind, would he be interested in talking to Dr. Harley directly on the radio show about his concerns?

Dr. Harley says that when this kind of resentment is still present, it shows that recovery is not complete. Something is wrong in the present, but the temptation will be to blame it on the past. Do you have any idea what his complaints about the present are? What unmet emotional needs are important to him? Any love busters on your part? And do you have any complaints yourself? For complete recovery it is very important for both husband and wife to be getting what they need out of marriage. If something's wrong for you and you just try to "tough it through," that can affect him, too.

X2

I will ask 20year later if he would be interested in speaking with Dr. Harley. now is not a good time.

the past couple months have been more stressful than usual. the issue with my parents is still weighing heavy on our minds. it has not been resolved yet.

the other day he has said that I haven't been proactive in starting intimate conversation with him. he said that is what he needs to feel close to me. I also know we haven't been getting the much needed 15 hours UA.

I don't feel I am committing any love busters. I don't believe that is an issue.

THAT'S your big issue right there.
Why haven't you been getting UA?
What can you do to change that?

If conversation is also a high emotional need for you, you may be in luck, because that would make it easy to meet. Sounds like mainly you two need to get the time.

we are not making UA a high enough priority. it seems that daily family living is taking priority. I know that needs to change. I agree with marcos and prisca that UA is the big issue.

I just spoke with 20year. he says there are times when he gets overwhelmed with thoughts and he just shuts down. he seems better now than he did a couple hours ago. I am going to sign off here and hopefully we will able to take advantage of the rest of the child free evening and get some good UA time in.

What can the two of you do to make UA THE priority?
Are you going on dates?

Here's a good show.

Radio Clip on Problem Solving
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

as to ua, we just have to make it happen. i believe that is what is slowing our recovery.
we are going on dates, but not enough. we try to once a week and we get about an hour or so each evening. we definatley need more ua!

thanks brainhurts. 20year and i tried to listen to the links last night but was having trouble. not sure if the ap was having issues??? we will try again tonight.

Well, I'm glad it wasn't just me! I wasn't able to get last night or this morning.
The site must have been down or something

You need to be getting out on dates 4 times a week. Can you make that happen? How?

Did you get a chance to listen?
What did you think?

UA is usually the main thing to focus on, either not enough of it, or not high quality enough when it's done.

Yesterday's show had some very good comments toward the beginning about this, be sure to listen when it hits the archives.

brainhurts,
20year and I just listened to the clips. thanks for posting them. it really reinforces the importance of negotiation.
can you post the link to the show marcos was referring to about ua? thanks.

20year and I are really trying to make it happen. this evening he talked with his mother about really needing her and the rest of his family's help in child care. it really made me happy how serious he is taking this.
we got some good ua this evening, have a date planned tomorrow night, taking day off on Friday together, and another date on Saturday night. this is going to be a good week!

You're welcome.

I sure will as soon as it hits the archives.

Here's the show clearmind.

How are you guys doing?
Radio Clip
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Segment #5

thanks for the clips brainhurts!

We are doing pretty well. we are still struggling with getting enough UA time. a couple weeks ago we had over 20 hours and we could definitely tell a difference.
this wednesday we will start having weekly date nights during the week in addition to our usual weekends. 20year worked out having his cousin come every week. im optimistic that it will make a difference!

Love you babe.

Thank you for giving us a future together.

Growing old with you is my anniversary wish.

Happy anniversary, you two!

Yes, Happy Anniversary, friend.

Thanks! 20year and I are looking forward to many more anniversaries!

How are things?

Brainhurts,

20year and I have had several good weeks. I realized a few moments during that time that I actually felt, for lack of a better word, normal. I never thought it would be possible to have that feeling again. It was an encouraging sign.
This past Monday, we did have a set back. I addressed it in the Operation Investigation forum. In a nutshell, the GPS on my iphone showed I was somewhere I was not. My honesty will always be in question and I understand and agree with that. I did what I thought proved I was at my desk, but the uncertainty with 20year will always be there. It was a setback but we are working through it and today is a better day for us!
Thanks for asking Brainhurts!

So did you get a different GPS unit?

How has your UA time going? I'm glad you're still doing the work for Recovery.

Stay the course, friend.

Brainhurts,

I looked up the device RocketQueen suggested, Pocketfinder. It appears to be what I had in mind. I will talk with 20year tonight about it as an added precaution.

Our UA is still not what it should be and what we would like it to be. We get approximately 10-14 hours a week. It is still a struggle but both of us are on the same page to get it increased.

We are definately still using the Marriage Builders plan and plan to use the principles for the rest of our lives. It was/is a life saver.

Are you two sitting down and scheduling the time every week?

SusieQ,

We have 2 standing date nights a week, Wednesdays and an evening on the weekend. Those 2 days each week are pretty consistant. We fill in the rest of UA time after the kids go to bed, which is usually not the ideal time.

Brainhurts,

Could you link the Dec 10, 2013 show???

Here you go. Was one of these segments yours? The first 3 are our poster Fancy's call.
Radio Clip of Dec 10, 2013
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Segment #5

Brainhurts,
Thanks for the link! and yes, segments 4 and 5 include an emailed question to the Harleys from 20year (aka Steve).

I just listened to that clip today (thanks for requesting the link!). It was very helpful for me.

Thank you for asking and posting! This was helpful to hear.

Branhurts,

Could you post the 1-29-14 show, specifically the part about the in-laws?

Thanks!

I sure will, as soon as it hits the archives.

Is this the clip clearmind?

Radio Clip on In-laws

Thanks Brainhurts! That's the one. I listened on the way into work this morning.

I have another request. Could you post the show from, I think, this past Friday about emotional reactions.

Thank you

You're welcome.

I'll add it to my list.

Is it this one? Some of the days/shows are messed up in the archives and so I'm not sure if this is the clips.
Radio Clip
Segment #2

That's the one! Thanks Brainhurts!

You're welcome.

How are things?

Brainhurts,

Things are going well with 20year. We are 2 years into recovery. Daily life is getting better, the lows aren't quite as low as they used to be and we are having more good days than bad. The program does work if you apply it. I can tell when we aren't getting the UA as we should. We start to feel disconnected. Usually some good UA will help that.

I am getting better with my openness, sharing my thoughts and emotions on a daily basis. 20year is doing great with listening and trying to see my perspective. We both have become better people in this process. I am though, having issues dealing with complaints. I get very emotional. I emailed Dr. Harley about 3 weeks ago and haven't heard back yet.

We still have our triggers but we try to minimize them as much as we can. One major trigger is the city where it happened, my hometown. We no longer go there and that, along with some other issues, have caused some discord with my parents. We are having a hard time finding a solution. 20year and I are going to email Dr. Harley for some help on handling this situation.

Even with those issues, 20year and I have fallen back in love with each other and are looking forward to the future. It wasn't an easy road to get here, but it has definitely been worth it! We are on our way to having the marriage we always wanted. I am fortunate that 20year had the capacity to give me another chance when I didn't deserve it. And I won't let him down!

Thanks for asking Brainhurts!

If you emailed Dr. Harley 3 weeks ago and he hasn't responded yet, I suggest you email him again.
He usually responds promptly and may have missed your email.

I agree clearmind. Send another email to Dr. H. Also, could you and 20year be on the show together?

About the triggers in your hometown. How close are you?

Also clearmind, notify the MODS if you still don't hear back from the Harleys.

Thanks for the update, clearmind. What sort or issues are you having in dealing with complaints. Is it the way the complaint is expressed or the complaint itself?

Sorry about the difficulty with visiting your town and your parents. Have you and 20 brainstormed various solutions?

I am certain that you will hear from the Harley's soon if you re-send your email. They are usually very responsive.

AM

Jedi Knight,

I will send them another email soon. 20years wanted to add more detail to help explain the full picture (I tend to be succinct at times)

Brainhurts,

20years and I have talked about being on the show together. We will definately be sending an email soon.

My hometown is 70 miles away.

Armymama,

I tend to become very emotional and have negative feelings towards my self when some complaints are made. 20years expresses them in a respectful manner and they are valid complaints. The problems is the way I handle them.

20years and I have brainstormed. We are at an impasse with my parents. We can't go there and they dont feel welcomed at our house. We have suggested meeting at a restaurant about half way. My dad has been having heart issues so they don't like to leave far from their town. I hoping Dr Harley can help us.

Clearmind,

Have you told your parents that you will not tolerate the disrespect your parents shown towards 20years?

What complqint exactly is it that your parents have? What complaint is it that 20years has?

clearmind, can you give an example of the way your husband complains? It's important to make sure that his complaints don't come with an element of criticism - that they aren't demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

Prisca was also pretty emotional with most of my complaints.

Yes, most often if something is expressed as a complaint, I don't become emotional. When the same issue is tinged with criticism, I react negatively.

clearmind,

I am sorry that I cannot recall enough of your situation and didn't see the information in skimming your thread. Is the trigger with your parents about your parent's reactions to the affair or is the OM a neighbor of your parents? Did your parents facilitate the affair somehow?

AM

Never mind, I see the answer in your husband's thread.

Brainhurts,

Yesterday I wrote an email (but did'nt send) to Dr. Harley regarding my parents. It was tough to write because it had to refer to a lot of things in the past. It brought back many painful memories to me and to 20years. We decided it was not the path to take right now. I have read 20years thread and the advice that was given. Very good points were made. It is something that I need to work out with my parents. I really appreciate everyones concern and help. This forum has helped me in many difficult situations. I'm sorry Brainhurts that I am not answering your questions at this time. I will have to type again many things from the past that is too painful right now. It is an extrememly sensitive topic. Thanks again for your concern.

Clearmind, you are not just going to sweep this under the rug, are you? Are you planning on following the advice given?

clearmind, I don't think that the past should be referred to at all in solving this problem. And I also don't think that it should be yours to solve alone without your husband. There are a lot of ways this can be addressed.

It sounds to me like your husband is open to a continued relationship with your parents if they will be respectful to him. It sounds to me like the ONLY way for that to happen is for everyone to agree to leave the past in the past.

My suggestion is that after a day or so to calm down and recover from the trauma of reviewing the past, that you write another letter to Dr. Harley about the present problem, not mentioning the past other than perhaps as the reason you guys can't go to the city where your parents live.

It sounds like there is a massive history of details of the past here. As I mentioned in your husband's thread, this is never going to be resolved by going over all of those details and establishing what the "right" interpretation of the past is. It sounds like your parents were offended a very long time ago and an effort was made to talk them out of being offended. I don't think efforts like that will ever work - instead I think the need is to call a truce on the past and establish a new future that is acceptable to both sides.

Marcos,

20years complaints are not demanding, disrespectful, or angry in any way. They are worded respectfully in a calm manner. The issue is with the way I handle the complaint about intimate conversation. I have always felt that I am not social enough/talk enough for 20years. It is my highest insecurity. When he makes a complaint, always in a respecful manner, I take it very personal and get extremely emotional. Negative feelings from the past surface. I know complaints are vital for a healthy marriage and I need to find a way to handle them better.

Prisca,

I have written a letter to my parents that I will have 20years review. It has incorporated ideas from 20years thread.

Marcos,

I'm not sure how this problem can be addressed to Dr. Harley without referring to the past??? Wouldn't he need all the information to know what is going on?
20years is extremely open to a relationship with my parents. And I love him even more for it. He has been great and supportive.
You are right about trying to convince my parents to change their thinking. I have tried over and over to do just that and it has gotten no where. I agree with calling a truce on the past and establishing a new future. That is a wonderful idea. Now how can I convince my parents of that?? 20years and I are definately on the same page as to leaving the past in the past. It is my parents that want to re-hash everything. I don't think anything good will come from that. My parents think it needs to be addressed.
I have written my parents a letter with ideas from 20years thread. Need to have 20years review it before my next step.

That is a very good sign. It is possible that your parents will not have to do much of anything to restore the relationship, other than to drop their own demands (the demand that you must meet them in their city) and disrespect. If 20years is open to this and enthusiastic, an apology for the past may not even be necessary (although it would certainly be nice).


To some extent I think you have to lead by example. You invite them to meet you somewhere and add in the message "We love you and want to see you and don't want to talk over old hurtful events of the past. We just want to see you and be with you again, soon." Then if they bring up the past in response, you end the conversation and try again later. If they ambush you and meet with you and bring up the past, you leave. (Come prepared to leave if necessary.)

I would outline the problems of the present and only fill in detail from the past where it is absolutely necessary. The main problems I see are:
* your parents are demanding (they demand you meet them in their town)
* your parents are disrespectful toward your husband (expressing judgment toward his motivations)
* your parents won't stop talking about the past

If those three problems were gone, I think this whole thing would be resolved!

Marcos,

We have several times asked to meet halfway at a restaurant. They declined with the reason they don't want to discuss emotional issues in public. The last few times we have offered with no serious talk, their reason was my dad's health. (had quadrupple by-pass about 5 years ago and started having more heart releated issues the past few months). They said they don't want to go that far from home. We offered to meet a little closer to them and they still declined. Maybe offer to go a little closer??

I will talk with 20year about your suggestion with the email to Harley. Sounds like a good idea.

Thanks for all your insight and suggestions.

I would keep offering, and if they mention they don't want to discuss emotional issues in public, I would respond cheerfully that you don't want to discuss emotional issues - you just want to see them. Make it clear this is getting together as friends/family, not getting together to talk over issues. The goal is to NOT talk over the issues, because you will always see them differently.

I don't have any ideas yet to suggest about distance and your dad's health precluding them going farther. I was afraid that would be an issue. Maybe the four of you could start phoning each other regularly for pleasant phone calls? (Again, not to discuss issues - to have a friendly conversation.)

Brainhurts ,

I have another favor/request to ask you. Could you post the link to the march 21st show? Thanks!

Sure thing. They are really behind on the archives again, but as soon as they post it I will post it.

Do you want all the segments from the 3-21st show?

Here you go.
3-21-14 Show

Thanks Brainhurts! I was able to listen to the segment today. Appreciate you posting it.

You're welcome.