My wife of 23 years had a 6 month affair, two years ago. I continue to struggle with vivid memories of the summer of 2010. I am over the shock and begining to get over the depression, but how do I put these memories and blues behind me?

Are you following the MB plan for recovery?

Where are you and your WW at in recovery?

How much UA time are you getting?

Also have you read this?
Managing Memories and Dealing with Triggers

We spend several hours together each day. I have a few good days or week and then something will trigger a memory. I feel like someone who has lost a limb. Happy to be alive, but then depressed that life will never be the same, again.

I have read many books about affairs and most recently how the brain works. The bottom lime is that I just cannot believe what happened. I feel no responsibility for my wifes poor choices. She has finally started to get it, but the memory of the events seem too much to comprehend at times.

I had a great job, the kids were getting awesome college educations, and she had to go and screw up our family! Two years of recovery.... really.

When we were dating a neighbor told me... You know she gets around. We went for a day trip to the river and after her actions in the river with three guys, I swore we would never date again. Now twenty years later and she was running around town acting like a tramp. How do you forget that your wife attended a golf outing for childhood cancer, just to hook up with this guy after the event? How do you forget that she lied to you time and time and time again.

How do you get back to normal and forget that she gave him oral sex while driving back from the golf outing?

How do you forget that your career has stalled, because you spent weeks not able to function properly and then you had to take a new job to stop traveling - because the anxiety was too much to handle.

Let us query you about how well you and your wife are following the program. Dr. Harley says that usually when someone tells him they are following the Marriage Builders program, but not recovering, he finds that they are not following the program exactly. When they adjust and correct the parts they aren't getting right, they recover.

What do you guys do each day during your several hours together?

Do the two of you still talk about the affair?

Drive back and forth to work each day (60 min), make dinner together, go for a walk (60 min), chat, work in the yard, home repair - decorating, botanical gardens, shakespear theater, dinner, beer garden...

Yes, we still talk about it on occassion. The way I feel is that the shock has worn off, which kept me going for months. Now the reality is setting in at times and it really stinks.

You will never recover as long as this is true.

How do you forget it and move forward?

I read some advice that suggested that you have to stop living in the past and future and enjoy the present, but everytime I drive down the highway there are memories of my ww's actions.

How do you get over the feeling that your limb was amputated?

Excellent radio clip on triggers. Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on Triggers

Why?
Is something triggering you?

One thing you have to do is live by the rules of recovery, no matter what your feelings tell you to do. If you do, your feelings will eventually catch up and match your actions.

Yes, there are several triggers on the main East/West highway where we live. Golf driving range that they visited. Office building where she used to work. The list goes on and on.

Isn't that hard, when you see your wife naked and wonder... what did the OG think / do when he saw her naked too?

I seem somewhat well adjusted and moving forward one day and then feel the weight of the world the next day. How could this have happended.

I find it very difficult to admire my wife. The feelings that she gave herself to someone else is hard to block out. The fact that she continued to lie to me about it even after I discovered the affair.

She moved out of the house two years ago, spent one hour on the telphone with him and then ran home with energy and wanted to make it all up to me. I let her back in the house only to find out that she continue to pursue the OG at work for weeks until I told the OMW.

How do you follow a recovery plan when you feel so much has been taken away from you?

My wife's most important EN is affection, but I find it very difficult to meet that EN and remember how she acted a few months ago. It seems that I spent months in a haze and I had to pull the rope to save our marriage. Can you say reluctant spouse.

Now the haze has cleared and I am upset with how my life has turned upside down. How do you stay focused on recovery when there is so much destruction everywhere you look?

Are you doing the online program or MB coaching? Steve Harley is really good with reluctant spouses.

What did you think about the clip on triggers?

Can you move?

Also have you read this?
Using Resentment as a Punishment

This is one of the many reasons why a BS needs to far away from where the affair took place. Time to sell your home.

You want your WW and family or money can't have it all. Choose.

Only oral I think your gut makes you feel that more has happened and this is a reason why you can't put it to rest. Did you have her take a polygraph to see if WW has been trickle truthing you?

I don't know what WW did on a date with you with three other guys all those years ago. But why did you marry her? After being told that she was easy. Then seeing she was easy.

I suspect that your WW may have been a serial cheater all these years but you just caught her now. Again time for a poly.

As long as you suspect not being told the full truth your mind will not be able to rest.

It hasn't been posted here that much any more but recovery takes 2 to 5 years. You have 3 more years of work.

You are going to have to eliminate these triggers from your life. You cannot recover from the trauma of infidelity when you are being constantly triggered to remember it.

Using resentment as punishment...

After reading that post I understand the concept of just compensation and wishing that my ww got it. It has been a struggle since her 6 month A came to light. I still don't think she gets it. That is my number one complaint. She takes a good flight path for a couple of weeks and then when I begin to struggle with memories of the past the wheels fall off the bus.

We have done a polygraph, but I still find it hard to believe she is telling me the whole truth. Brutal honesty is important to me. When someone lies to your face when the affair is revealed and continues to lie for weeks and weeks, it is hard to believe that when push comes to shove that brutal honesty will prevail.

We traveled to visit my son back east in May. That is the first time that I have felt relaxed in a year and a half. My company has positions around the globe, but my ww is not willing to move.

I guess the best way to describe what I am feeling is that for months I had the fire-fighting equipment on and was battling a blaze. Now the adrenaline has worn off and I find it difficult to believe that I lived through the past 18 months. The feeling of despair, memories of my wifes actions and the combination of my life turing upside down really take me down.

While I was able to keep the family together during the first year my wife seems unable to help me now.

Good clip about moving after an affair.
Radio clip on moving locations after an affair

THG12,

Did you see this post? You need to eliminate the triggers that remind you of the affair. Do you need some help coming up with a plan to do this?

Dr. Harley identifies two causes for continuing resentment after an affair.

In most cases, the plan for recovery has not been followed completely, so the recovery is not complete, and there is still resentment.

In some cases, the plan for recovery has been followed, but the offended spouse has held onto resentment for what psychologists call "secondary gain": they get something out of feeling miserable and using their feelings to gain something from their spouse.

In your case, the plan for recovery has not been followed completely. You need to eliminate the triggers that are reminding you of the affair, or you will not be able to recover, and you will continue to feel resentment. Also, you need to quit bringing up the affair to your wife. Once you have received all of the information you need about how the affair happened and how to prevent it from recurring, you and your wife need to never bring up the affair again, and instead spend your time following Dr. Harley's program for recovery.

This seems like a matter of your wife not being willing to offer you Just Compensation.

You suffered not only an affair, but also a False Recovery in the fact that you thought it was over and yet it was still going on and you were being spoon fed more lies. FR's seem to have an even greater amount of recovery process because they are so devastating.

Now your wife seems to be dedicated to R but yet in a way you feel she still 'doesn't get it,' she is not willing to relocate to help YOU and your M heal from the A by getting you away from very painful triggers, etc.

Did your wife send a NC letter? Do you feel like she has given you all the details and information about the A that you need? If not, would she be willing to take a polygraph test to help you feel like you have gotten all details?

Dr Harley advises to not discuss the A after you have all the information about it you need. The second part of this is important however. If you feel she has not been forthright with information, or feel there is still deception somewhere, or did not get all of your questions answered, that will prevent you from being able to move on from these thoughts and discussions.

You are spending the UA time together. Are you working to fill each other's most important EN's? Have you eliminated love busters from your M?

How is your wife making you feel like she is 'not getting it' and what would you like to see her do to provide you with JC?

Yes, please provide guidance how I can remove triggers from my day to day life.

If you want to recover, then when you struggle with memories of the past, you still have to follow the plan for recovery. Don't discuss the affair.

Can you tell us what you've done? What have you followed?

In order to not bring the affair up with my wife would you suggest a stronger support group that I can talk to? How does that work?

Have you tried getting out for a DATE? Dr. Harley's plan is that you need to plan a romantic experience. The same kind of thing you did when you were dating.

It has to truly be the most enjoyable part of your week. If you aren't enjoying it yet, more than anything else you do, then you need to change something.

At first the anxiety ruled my life. I would drive past locations associated with the affair and it would drive me crazy. As time progressed I found that I could at least drive past these locations without freaking out. The OG's family owns a chain of stores. My wife worked for the company for 25 years. After the affair they built a new store 4 blocks from our home.

No, just quit doing it. It's a habit you need to eliminate, with practice.

THG, has your wife affair proofed her life? For example, has she ended opposite sex friendships? Does she ever see the OM? Is her lifestyle completely transparent?

Dr Harley says that when the PRESENT is happy, one does not tend to have resentment about the past. It doesn't sound like you and your wife have taken the steps to make the present happy.

One of the most glaring problems is you continue to talk about the affair. But that seems to be triggered by your environment. I would strongly consider moving out of the area. This is a quality of life issue that is keeping you crippled.

For one thing, you are driving past triggers every day. You need to either find a different route to drive, or move.

Dr. Harley says in many cases it is almost impossible to recover from an affair without moving, assuming the affair happened in the same town. You have to get out and start a new life, to escape from reminders of the old life.

Did you listen to this?

My husbands affair was in 2000 and I remember being triggered as late as 2005 while living in the same house. [we didn't do a good job of following the MB program] The house we lived in triggered me somewhat and there was a stretch of road that would trigger me.

It wasn't until we went through the MB program [May 2007] and then MOVED to a new town [June 2007] that our marriage escalated into a truly romantic, passionate marriage.

The quality of our marriage has improved 1000 fold since that happened, and just continues to get better and better every year.

I don't think everyone has to move but if a BS finds himself continually triggered it might be a good idea.

No, I truly do not believe she has given me all of the details. She has taken a polygraph and passed three questions, but the A went unknown from May to October and the details just do not add up. Once I found out she begged to stay together but just couldnt give up her job (i.e. financial security) I agree and then later found out she was continuing to pursue the OG. We spend UA time together. The downfall usually occurs after a couple of good weeks when the memories start to rush in. I start to have a bad day, she tries to help and then we start to go down hill from there.

Does she still work with this OM?

Oddly, my husbands affair didn't even take place in my state, but I was triggered when I was close to the place I was at when I discovered it. I also associated my home with all the unhappiness and bitterness from the affair. None of that followed me when I moved!

No, she left the company in March 2011. Spent two months of Sundays laying on the bedroom floor (her life was ruined) started a new job at a local university and has been there just over one year.

Does she have opposite sex friendships? Does she flirt with men?

THG-

Stinks youre here. The fact that youre still with her after 2 years bodes well.

Our wives made a stinking poop sandwich for us to eat everyday, forever. Thats how its appears to be until you decide to put what she did in the past. Easier said than done, I know.

There is a clear path you need to take and you seem to have been on that path but are making classic missteps:

1. You cannot keep asking about the affair. This does nothing but restart the lousy feelings and you really are at day 1 after finding out every time you bring it up. Face it, she did it and nothing you can do will make it not have happened.

2. You must establish a list of things she is to be doing to give you complete security that this will not happen again. This is list is to include things to compensate for the hurt she put on you. That may include anything from more domestic support (a cleaner house) to more action in the sack. Whatever you are lacking and need to be happy. She needs to let you know what she wants to be happy from you.

3. Transparency. You are to know every thing she does, where she is, who she speaks to, emails, texts, etc. Especially since you feel there may be history of selfishness and promiscuity.

The truth is this, my friend, anything less than complete, utter, and unambiguous remorse for destroying all that she claims to love is unacceptible.

This last thing has been the hallmark of my recovery. As I sometimes drive by the office my wife and her guy worked at (and the scene of countless encounters), or the restaurants they went to, or hotel they banged at, I think of the crushed, highly apologetic, and desperate for my acceptance woman I married.

This is the life she created.

I know it seems difficult to stop talking about the A, society around us supports bringing up negative past experiences over and over again. But this is not healthy, for your M or for you. If you have all of your questions answered, what is the purpose of this? It certainly will not help to build your M, and it won't do anything for you but to make you relive the traumatic things over and over again.

I like to write, and for many years I wrote my feelings out toward my H, my many distrusts, feelings towards his trickle truthing, feelings after DDay. There are some pretty emotional documents sitting out on my computer! Some days when I am at a low, I think about bringing them up and rereading something. To relive it? To make sure I don't forget how bad he hurt me? I don't even think about some of that now, but if I were to bring something up and read it, I would think, OH YA, I forgot about how hurt I was by this! And be hurt all over again. Why would I want to do that to myself?

Going to a support group would offer you the same thing, the ability to hash and rehash the details that caused you the most pain. Hash them, and then move on to a better future.

But I read backwards and see that you do not feel like you have all the information about the A. You do not feel like she has been O&H with you about the details. So, that is the reason you are rehashing things with her. You can't move on without O&H about the details.

I am perplexed though that she has passed a poly and you still feel like she is hiding things. I generally say 'trust your instinct' but I also know after my WH passed a poly I would sometimes think, 'he isn't being honest about that' and then remember he passed it on a poly, and then I knew it was just ME and my (rightful) lack of trust trying to sabotage everything he said or did. Is this the case with you?

You said she passed the 3 questions on the poly, do you not feel you asked the right questions? You can always go back and take another poly with different questions, if this is the case.

Have you read SAA and are you following the MB program?

Again, has she done a NC letter, or does she still have contact with the OM? Has she established EP's to prevent her from A's in the future and make you feel secure in your M?

What recovery plan are you following?

If you just move on and try to forgive and forget, that is never going to happen.

Has she given up the job now?

Recovery cannot even begin if the affair partners continue to work together. Dr. Harley says this cannot be skipped or compromised on.

From the How to Survive an Affair chapter in His Needs, Her Needs:
HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE

Most marriages are going to have to move to another city or state to recover from an affair. One prime reason for this is to eliminate contact or the potential for contact between the affair partners. But beyond that, moving is often necessary just to eliminate the triggers. Just living in the same house you lived in at the time can trigger you.

If your wife is not willing to give up working with the other man, then recovery has not begun.

Can you be more specific? What information do you think you are lacking?

Dr. Harley says to focus on information about the circumstances of the affair so that you can change the circumstances and prevent another affair. Only then can you be secure enough to recover. So for example, who was it, how and where did they meet, how did they communicate, etc.

Does she have opposite sex friendships? Does she flirt with men?

She had one close friend that works at her former company. I told her that the continued communication with that friend was a trigger for me and she reluctantly has discontinued communication with her.

April 2011, while I was in California on business another man (sports-dad) from the office called on his was home from a major league baseball game and eventually invited himself to our house. That makes me wonder how she acts towards other men when I am not around.

The truth is this, my friend, anything less than complete, utter, and unambiguous remorse for destroying all that she claims to love is unacceptible.

My ww does not feel guilt. That much I know. From day one to early July she has made it clear that my poor behavior caused the affair. That attitude does not spell remourse.

Going to a support group would offer you the same thing, the ability to hash and rehash the details that caused you the most pain. Hash them, and then move on to a better future.

Are you suggesting that I go to a support group? How do you hash something once and move forward? My wife works less than a mile from the OG's house. We drove home Saturday night from an outdoor play and all I could think about was how she gave the OG oral sex on the way home from a charity golf outing. I get blue and the relationship sours.

Can you be more specific? What information do you think you are lacking?

WW still will not tell her mother that she had a small party at their house when she was 16 years old. She is hyper sensitive to criticism. She told me early on that the two of them would schedule a fake meeting and leave the office together. But when she explained the entire affair and the three times they were together that did not support the - fake meeting statement. All of a sudden the fake meeting comment was a fluke. She didn't say that...

So for example, who was it, how and where did they meet, how did they communicate, etc.

It was the owners son (35 yrs old) at the company she worked for. She lost 30 lbs (May 2010) and he started paying her compliments. In June they were running company cars into the shop and by July they were making out in the elevator. Eventually she met him .25 miles from office at his mobile home and had sex. Then again in his office (not sure when - she doesn't remember) and then again following a charity golf outing in mid-August. She went on the pill and I found out in mid-Oct. But that is the only three times she admits to.

I hate to tell you this, THG, but Dr. Harley says complete remorse is not typical for a wayward wife, at least not early on. After she is in love with her husband again she will see what she did in a much more realistic light and realize how horrible it was to risk something so wonderful, but usually that does not come up front.

Many people recover without this, but many betrayed husbands prevent recovery by demanding it up front.

So really you have a decision to make: knowing that your wife is not likely to feel remorse until AFTER she is in love with you again, if ever, are you willing to try for recovery, or do you need to end your marriage?

I would encourage you to consider trying, especially if the two of you have children together, but you must understand that waiting for her to experience remorse first will be a non-starter, and you will never recover that way.

Your wife cannot give you just compensation if you will not engage in the program of recovery with her. The outcome of just compensation is the marriage that BOTH of you always wanted. It is not something that hurts her; it is something that delights and heals BOTH of you.

Please watch this 30-minute video by Dr. Harley on infidelity. He spells out a plan for recovery from infidelity. Here

Also, get the book Surviving an Affair.

By the way, Harley says most wives do not feel remorse for an affair but states recovery is still possible with a change of actions. She should own her responsibility, that she is 100% responsible for her decision to have an A, even though the conditions of the marriage are shared.

MB says "There are always reasons for an A, but there are never excuses."

The steps to recovery:

1.) No contact for life with AP (which may mean moving from your area where you live and work in close proximity to AP.

2.) Extraordinary Precautions for life to avoid the possibility of another affair

3.) Transparency and integrated lifestyle (shared emails, passwords, phones, bank account records, accounting for time)

4.) Building a romantic and passionate marriage

Dr. Harley doesn't say this. It is entirely possible that a WW will not feel remorse to that degree, if at all, and yet the marriage still recovers. Remorse is not a requirement for recovery.

Im sorry. This is very true.

Many people will have a lot of work to get the 'fog' out of their spouses heads. Which seems to be your situation.

I should have said that I was lucky enough to have the remorseful wife. Very often, more often than not on this site, a BS must go thru various steps to lift the fog. I simply said to my wife that if she indeed wanted to save this marriage, I will not accept a minute of withdrawal, any mention of his name, anything but the list of things I wanted.

Hers was a long term affair where any lingering 'love' ended well before she could or even wanted to extract herself from the relationship. It was about an easy lifestyle she needed to maintain.

So when she was caught by the most ridiculous thing ever, my wife was well ready for it to be over. Doenst make anything Im going thru easier. Just that she was able to take all responsibility and start recovery and making me whole day 1 after dday.

I think you should actually act like you just found out about her affair. Expose it to whoever can snap her out delusion. Then, you are to get every tidbit of information you need to move forward from her about the a. After this, you dont ask about it anymore.

You then craft a list of ENs you need and things to keep you secure that she will not be seeking add'l affairs.

You really never followed a plan for recovery so i think you should start today. The people here will help with your next steps and brutal mood swings.

Last thing, the beauty of MB is you will know in due time if this marriage is salvagable.

But there's a very important benchmark in there. Over and over on the radio show, Dr. Harley has said that if after 2 years of applying the program to the best of your ability your marriage is not "better than it has ever been", then it's probably time to hang up your cleats and plan to divorce. The chance of your marriage recovering after that time is slim to none.

There are a few -- very few -- success stories even after that kind of event. The couple eventually begins dating again, agrees to "buyer" rules in their relationship rather than "renter" or "freeloader" rules, and has a successful marriage. But basically that's extremely unlikely if you've been attempting to recover the marriage for two years and things aren't better than they've ever been.

I was referring to this comment, not suggesting you seek a support group but actually suggesting you get the details you need from your WW and then stop discussing the A altogether.

I've written about this extensively before, but overwhelmingly unfaithful wives blame their husbands for their affairs. Unfaithful husbands, on the other hand, tend to blame themselves.

This is the primary reason why Dr. Harley has a double-standard on recovery. If the husband was unfaithful, utter remorse is a prerequisite to recovery. If the wife was unfaithful, it is not; her remorse will typically come with time and a restoration of her love for you, and it will often be a remorse of the "I'm sorry that I hurt you" variety, not an "I'm sorry for my actions" variety.

Which is exactly where I am. Truthfully, it's enough to have our love & marriage restored. I am basically happy three years later, though occasional triggers occur and I'd really like to move out of this house.

There are a few -- very few -- success stories even after that kind of event. The couple eventually begins dating again, agrees to "buyer" rules in their relationship rather than "renter" or "freeloader" rules, and has a successful marriage. But basically that's extremely unlikely if you've been attempting to recover the marriage for two years and things aren't better than they've ever been.


We go through periods of time 10 - 15 days when we are truly enjoying each other and moving forward. She is following the plan and being proactive. Then the wheels fall off the bus. I don't know why for sure. I get this feeling like, man it is good to be alive even though I lived through this terrible accident and then two weeks later I am focused on the fact that my life will never be the same (ie., lost a limb).

I will take a look at some of the clips / posts recommended above.

It sounds to me like your WW refuses to take responsibility for the A.

I would say this is a roadblock, because without it I know I would feel unsafe about the same situation occurring in the future.

Again, what recovery plan are you following? Have you ever thought about doing the MB online program or counseling with the Harleys?

many betrayed husbands prevent recovery by demanding it up front.


How do you ever get on solid ground to rebuild your marriage if your spouse is not truly remorseful and accept responsibility for the affair, instead of blaming the BS?

Is it because you keep getting triggered and keep bringing up the affair?

I'd adjust this statement to "Remorse is not a prerequisite to recovery". If my spouse felt no remorse for the situation or how her actions affected me two years into recovery after her love for me was restored, I'd have said it was time to divorce & find a more empathetic or compassionate spouse.

Remorse from an unfaithful wife comes, in time, if love is restored, but usually not in exactly the form a betrayed husband desires. As long as the betrayed husband's love for his wife is restored also, that is usually enough.

Here's a radio clip of Dr. Harley discussing women and apologies:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2220

(You'll have to fast forward a bit; the first part of the clip is finishing up talking about the previous caller, whose husband has manic psychosis. Fascinating, but not relevant here.)

It turns out women really tend to blame their husbands for lots of things, and they really seem to be less likely to apologize.

But it also turns out you can have a completely happy marriage if you focus on how to make things nice now.

what recovery plan are you following? Have you ever thought about doing the MB online program or counseling with the Harleys?

We have been working with Steve Harley for about 18 months. At first she would sit with her arms crossed and barely speak a word. Now she still hates the calls but she is engaged in the conversations.

This happened to me pretty consistently for the first 6 months of recovery once we began applying the MB program in earnest. We had a few incidents after that, but they were trivially resolved by recognizing the conversation had become unsafe and revisiting it when both of us were well-rested and prepared to keep the negotiation pleasant and safe.

Coincidentally, 6 months into recovery is when I found the final cache of photographs my wife had been keeping of the OM and destroyed them. It also marks the time when we met with Jennifer Harley Chalmers and began following her advice to never, ever bring up the affair again for any reason.

If your wife has items or anything stored that reminds her of her affair, that keeps her very foggy. Have you purged everything from your home that might remind her of her infidelity?

You quit playing the blame game, you quit talking about the affair, and you focus on the plan for recovery.

Here is the plan for recovery in a nutshell:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

The Rule of Protection
The Rule of Care
The Rule of Time
The Rule of Honesty

Those are the headings; read the plan for details.

None of those is going to require you to sort out what happened in the past. They are all about changing your present and your future. The only question is, are both of you on board with doing what it takes to recover? She can be completely on board with that even if she is not expressing remorse.

Goodness, that's a lot of Steve Harley calls! Has she been doing the assignments? Have you been doing the assignments?

But it also turns out you can have a completely happy marriage if you focus on how to make things nice now.


How do you stay focused and not let the images of the past come forward and bring you down today? It helps when I clearly see her moving forward and working at our recovery. But, it is very difficult to stay in the moment. How do you do that? Reminders of the affair are everywhere. You drive past the driving range where they worked on her swing before the golf outing, our young adult children (21 and 23) wonder why we didn't go to Dave Matthews this summer, because she was texting the OG while we were driving home together from the concert. How do you erase the images from your mind?

Here's the thing, THG: your feelings do not have to dictate your actions.

Marriage Builders is a plan for you to do some things that do not feel natural, for a while, in order that the eventual result will be a lifestyle that leads to good feelings and happiness, at which point in time the things you are doing feel natural.

Your problem seems to be that you are not doing the actions. You have to do them. You have to eliminate triggers, for example. You have to not bring up the affair.

There is no rule that says "I feel bad, so I need to talk to my wife about the affair." There's nothing in your brain that requires you to keep bringing up the affair. JUST STOP DOING IT. Next time you feel bad, do something else other than BRINGING UP THE AFFAIR. "How do you do that?" is not a sensible question. The only question is, will you decide to do this or not?

Goodness, that's a lot of Steve Harley calls! Has she been doing the assignments? Have you been doing the assignments?


The advice at this point is to learn how to change the channel. How have others learned how to change the channel?

I am not sure what that means. Maybe you need to read Doormat_No_More's postings about memories and triggers.

But I think you also need to move or change your driving route, since you are being triggered every day. As MelodyLane said, the main problem seems to be your environment constantly reminding you of the affair.

Perhaps he is telling you what we are telling you: when you feel bad, DON'T BRING UP THE AFFAIR. Because when you are talking about the affair, you are stepping off of the path that leads to recovery.

You are dwelling on the past. You cannot change the past. Im concerned of the amount of MB you have invested in and has not helped at least minimize her past. This means she is not on board.

Remorse may not be required for you, but it was for me.

I may have given MB a go for a short period of time but if I was miserable (like you) I would have set a time limit for being miserable with her.

I get the images. I get every bit of what you are going thru. All of us do. The best (and perhaps only) way to reduce their impact is to have a wife meeting all of you needs and having a commitment to your future together. Without that, you got that same texting her boyfriend while she was with you, oraling him in the golf cart, making out in the car woman you had before.

Maybe you'll read my threads at some point, but my wife got caught when her boyfriend left his cell phone around and his wife found a dozen videos of my wife giving him a bj. Nice. I got images too, my friend. Lots o' images.

My wife has done nothing but been with me since the minute OMW called to let me know what she just saw. You need to get yours with you. With bells on.

Or it means his environment keeps triggering him and he keeps bring up the affair.

The Rule of Protection
The Rule of Care
The Rule of Time
The Rule of Honesty


Since the adrenaline has worn off and I have returned to a more normal life I find it difficult to show affection to my ww. I remember the time when she talked about taking her golf clubs to work and visiting the driving range. Remember this is someone who HATED golf until invited to the charity golf outing. I remember saying - Well I will take my clubs and meet you at the driving range. Well silly me she was planning to meet him there. So while she still blames me for the affair, I recall all of the times I was there for her, but sent packing.

So the advice is to simply stop thinking about these things. It is not a question of wanting to it is a question of just simply making yourself stop thinking about the hurt, pain, and suffering. Is that the suggestion?

THG, I'm pretty sure the advice is to move, or otherwise eliminate triggers (you seem to be ignoring this, or at least I haven't seen a response) , and then to stop talking about it even if you think about it.

You realize that "eliminate triggers" doesn't mean "stop thinking about it," right? It means quit exposing yourself to the triggers. For example, stop driving past places where they went in their affair. You can't live four blocks away from the other man's place of business. Etc.

THG, this is the best post that has been made to you, with the best advice:


"Eliminate triggers" means to get them out of your environment. You are finding yourself unable to follow the plan of recovery (rules like not dwelling on the affair any more) because of triggers in your environment.

Im 15 months passed learning of my wife's LTA. I have hundreds of "I remember when she..." as well. Its a losers games. I have widdled all those I remember whens down to one, "I remember when she left every morning looking adorable to go to 'work' with him". Guess what? after all that time with him, she's with me today, not him.

It has taken some time and a lots of beat downs by the poster here but I learned to stop the loser's game. Cant win it.

There is a sorely missed poster with lots of positive vibes name Celtic Voyager who hammered home one truism to me: "I won, she chose me."

At a certain point someone here will ask you, WHAT DO YOU WANT?. So I'll do it.

[quote=MelodyLane
THG, One of the most glaring problems is you continue to talk about the affair. But that seems to be triggered by your environment. I would strongly consider moving out of the area. This is a quality of life issue that is keeping you crippled. [/quote]

If you remember, you responded to my post Holiday Party in Nov 2010 and I told the OMW about 45 minutes later. That changed my life - Thank you, again.

I feel that I have pulled my ww through the recovery process, kicking and screaming along the way. Now I need proof that she is actually here, for good.

"I won, she chose me."

I don't think my ww chose me. If the OM hadn't tucked his tail between his legs and ran away she would have taken a different path. He was in jeopardy of loosing control of a chain of convience stores. Damn those morality clauses in work contracts. So now I am looking for evidence that she has chosen me.

At a certain point someone here will ask you, WHAT DO YOU WANT?. So I'll do it.


I want to be happily married to the mother of my children. My parents divorced when I was 18 and I vowed never to let that happen to me and my family.

I want to get past the fact that my wife fell in love with another guy, somedays I want to put my fist in the OG jaw, but then think wait - it was your spouse who was there with him...

I want to move past this nightmare.

My point. After a couple of years she hasnt chosen. And your stuck in this limbo.

THG12,

What was the result of the polygraph, do you think she somehow gamed it?

God Bless
Gamma

THG12,

Did you ever get a financial settlement out of OM or his company?

What is your Ws opinion or feelings about OM now has she ever expressed disgust with him.

God Bless
Gamma

Is her lifestyle completely transparent?


We spend most of our time together. I finally have access to her emails, cell phone etc., that was a battle.

I do not have access to her work email, or telephone. Most days I drive to work and she takes the car to her work and picks me up on the way home. I would say her 8:15 AM until 5:15 PM is not transparent. She does text me if she leaves work for any reason. That was a big trigger for several weeks.

We spent 18 years remodeling our home. We both grew up around the corner from each other about a mile from our current home. I had a divisional role with my global company that required 100K miles of travel the past three years. I gave that job up for a local role 8 months ago. Do you suggest looking for a job in another city? That would be a major life change...

Is that your suggestion?

My point. After a couple of years she hasnt chosen. And your stuck in this limbo.


I think that is one of the big problems. When she follows S Harley's advice and brings it to our recovery things go well. But when she doesn't, I start to wonder if she is really here or just waiting for the door bell to ring again.

Did you ever get a financial settlement out of OM or his company?

What is your Ws opinion or feelings about OM now has she ever expressed disgust with him.


The company paid her 3 months of salary when she left. She said it was the OG that started things, but after a while it felt good and she was right there with him. Yes, she says that he is a jerk, but I am not convinced if he called she wouldn't pick up the telephone. The fog was deep!

What was the result of the polygraph, do you think she somehow gamed it?


The questions:
1. Were you with him more than 3 times
2. Have you had contact with OG since March 2011
3. Oral sex more than 2 times

The examiner said she passed the test. It was strange because the poly examiner picked the hotel which ended up being two blocks from her former employer. He also asked who the OG was and he recognized the name and family company.

Prior to the poly we did an interview test and that examiner said she was still covering something up. When I first found out about the affair and spoke with my sisters for help my ww went to my sisters and begged them not to tell anyone who 'he' was (i.e., protecting him).

what are you doing for recovery? Triggering and bringing up the affair is keeping you at square 1. What are you going to do about that?

THG, you quoted MelodyLane's post, but you did not reply to it or acknowledge what she said. What do you think of her analysis of your situation, and what do you think of her advice?

IMO, this is the best post that has been made to you on this thread, and if you don't deal with the issues MelodyLane is raising, I do not believe you will be able to recover your marriage.

It doesn't sound like you and your wife have taken the steps to make the present happy. I would strongly consider moving out of the area.

I feel that we are working on happiness, but it seems more like we are distracting ourselves, so that we do not think about how our lives have been ruined. We plan time together... When she talks about it she states "I am doing everyting that I am told". Which makes me believe that she doesn't really believe in the recovery or the process. I keep stating that if I had an affair I would have turned 180 degrees on day one and spent the rest of my life making it up to you. That has not happened.

As far as moving goes. We talked about moving back east where my employer has plenty of opportunties. She doesn't want to move away from her aging parents. We spent 18 years remodeling a home. Do you just pack up and go?

Thg12,

I find it odd that there was not a catch all question, such as "are there any other things you are lying to your BH about"

So you think perhaps the OMs family somehow influenced the results?

God Bless
Gamma

So you think perhaps the OMs family somehow influenced the results?


I am not 100% sure if the examiner didn't reconize the family name and alter the results... She was shaking like a leaf when she went into the exam. She will NEVER tell the truth about something that puts her in a bad light. That is her personality.

In the end the story doesn't match. July - October and they hooked up three times? Really? No catch all question.

If you don't kick your recovery into a higher gear, it is not likely to work. Is it more important to you to stay in the home and lose the marriage?

Okay, that is a disrespectful thing for you to say. When you talk to your wife like that, you are making a major love bank withdrawal. And when you do that, you make her even LESS motivated to be on board with the recovery process.

Let me recap what I am hearing:

1. Has my ww affair proofed her life?
2. Make sure the present is happy
3. UA time together
4. False recovery first x months makes the process harder
5. Stop blaming, stop talking about the A and start working recovery
6. Determine and fix triggers
7. Have I received just compensation?
8. Has my ww chosen me? Is she remorseful, transparent?
9. Resentment caused by plan not followed or secondary gain
10. Is ww forthright? If not, recovery blocked. Has she taken responsibility for her actions?
11. Is ww O&H? Is ww crushed, apologetic and desperate for my acceptance?

Listen to clips on triggers, move locations after A.

Consider moving to a new area to start fresh and remove the triggers.

Yes, this is important for recovery; it is to prevent another affair. Both spouses should practice EPs (Extraordinary Precautions) for life.


Yes, important, because the past, which sucks, can't be changed. All you can do is to make the present as good as you can. Each day will eventually look a little better.


Yes, very important. During recovery, the minimum should be about 20 - 25 hours.


False recoveries are harmful and often do more damage to the BS and the marriage that the original D-Day. Some BSs never can get past a false recovery.


Yes, you have to stop talking about the affair, because it brings the past into the present. The past cannot ever be changed. Not talking about it is HARD, but minute by minute, then hour by hour, then day by day, it can be done.


Yes, find out what your triggers are, then work on a way to manage each trigger.


Very important, but keep in mind, JC is a work in progress. Remember the time frame of recovery is 2 - 5 years.


Many WW are NOT remorseful for their affairs. Just leave that alone for now. What matters now are actions. Transparency is part of the EPs.


Yes, it takes time and a solid recovery plan to overcome the resentment.

Secondary gain: Some people use the resentment as a way to continue to punish their spouse or to get something they want from the spouse.


The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of the foundations of a good marriage. Is this what you mean by being forthright? She needs to be honest and open with you, and you with her.

Again, many WWs blame their affair on their H neglect.


Being open and honest is part of the rebuilding of the marriage. It's what each of us should be all along and all the time.

Your WW being crushed, apologetic and desperate for your acceptance is not important at this time. It's very unlikely to happen. Focus on actions: yours and hers.

Sure it's helpful to get more education on how to handle this traumatic time, but it sounds like you're getting expert help from Steve Harley. We listen to MB radio frequently. Always helpful.


Moving is a very good idea. You both need to be far away from any chance of running into the AP. You don't have to sell your house; you could rent it out. You could go find some other place to live far away and have an adventure together.

Although my H's adultery took place during deployment and therefore very far away, we still HAD to move due to his transfer. The new place is where D-Day occurred. It was horrible and traumatic. However, the new place was a place of such incredible beauty and peace and it was a small community where we made good friends and had lots of UA time. Moving was hard, but it turned out to be a very good thing. We are renting out our home very successfully and it's paying the mortgage while we are living somewhere else for a while. It's do-able.

I read through your threads and am sorry you have to deal with this pain for two years. I know you are averse to divorce but I think that is the best option. After nearly 2.5 decades, she choose to betray you and throw everything away. She did not bend over backwards to reassure you of her love. She kept on ignoring your needs. She refused to quit her job and EVEN CHOSE TO PURSUE HER AFFAIR PARTNER before finally calling it quits and settling for you. You have basically become her second choice.

To me, it does not seem like she is staying with you out of love. Do you think she is staying because of money? Do you earn more money than her?

What's your story, Rety?

Retycon,

A lot of WS do not return to the marriage out of love, and yet, using the MB programme, love can be rekindled over time. (Many BSs, too do not attempt recovery because "love" is the uppermost emotion after D Day. For them, too, there is despair at the thought of hurting the kids and throwing away a whole life that was shared with the WS to start again.)

It is a reality that some WSs take into account the futility of hoping for a future with an unsuitable person (their affair partner). They also do not want to hurt their kids and lose the respect of most people who know them. They might also take into account that they would lose a lot financially by walking away.

Those are actually some of the factors that make a marriage what it is. They are factors that make the BS have an advantage over an affair partner if they can intervene and expose the affair early on, forcing the WS or OP to make a choice. An affair partner is not the father or mother of the WS's children, and the WS often does not want to leave the children and a whole way of life behind in pursuit of a relationship with someone they hardly know, but they know to be capable of adultery.

Being dumped by OP is not a reason in itself why recovery will fail. Recovery has a high chance of success if both spouses follow Dr Harley's plan.

You don't appear to know much about Dr Harley and Marriage Builders. You'd do better to read a lot more here and only then offer MB-based advice, not your own opinions.

The fact that Rety won't answer this is very telling.

Quoting from one of the announcement posts here:


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2534888#Post2534888

A reminder to posters that the purpose of our forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders concepts. This is not a platform for personal opinions. Please familiarize yourself with MB concepts before posting to those in need. If you cannot stick to MB concepts we ask that you refrain from posting. Thank you.

Your posts are beginning to amuse me, because it's becoming very clear from reading your posts that you have an agenda that is counter-productive to the OWNER of this site.

The moderators on this site are very good at what they do and they are very protective of the posters here. So...it's been nice (not) knowing you!

Can I write my story when I am comfortable or am I not allowed to post till I do that?

You don't have to post your story at all. Nobody dragged you to come here and spill.

But I'll tell you what is not allowed:

You are not allowed to post opinions that are uninformed by Marriage Builders concepts on the threads of people seeking Marriage Builders advice.

Why do you expect the rest of us to be comfortable around you when you wont even do us the courtesy of introducing yourself?

As long as you continue to disrupt the threads of people seeking help with questions for your own morbid curiosity, people will rightly challenge you. You can do a lot of damage, solely seeking the pleasure of gratifying your morbid curiosity. Some of us are really invested in helping these people.

So we rightly ask you to tell your story, so people can evaluate you and decide if you are helpful or not.

The purpose of the board is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders concepts. The approach of going around scattershot asking people questions about their marriages is usually not helpful for a marriage in trouble, as opposed to actually posting about your situation and taking a look at how the principles here can help. Other people are posting about their situations to receive help implementing the Marriage Builders concepts in their marriages, not to share their situation for the enjoyment of others.

SugarCane is right. This is TOS.

**EDIT**

[quote=Retycon][/quote]

Okay, what are you here for, then? The rest of us are here to discuss and learn the concepts that you think are BS. Nobody asked you to chime in and straighten us all out.

Do not disrupt this thread anymore! If you can help this poster with MB concepts please feel free to post. If not, then refrain from posting.

Let me provide a couple of adjustments. I've struck through the non-MarriageBuilders concepts.


Just Compensation occurs when you and your spouse have the joyful, loving marriage you deserve. You're obviously not quite there yet, but it sure looks like it's lurking just below the surface!


For most recovering unfaithful wives, falling back in love with their husbands precedes remorse. It is when they fall back in love with you that they begin to empathize with you deeply enough to be horrified at the depth of the pain they have caused you.


Forthright is synonymous with "open and honest". So that's fair.

But the third sentence in item number 10 has the same response as the previous paragraph: taking "responsibility" for her actions must be something she chooses to do, in her own way and her own time. And in most cases, it has the same kind of prerequisite: until she is in love with you, she won't have the depth of empathy for you that is required to realize the injury she caused. When she's in Conflict with you, she has only a little empathy (much as she'd have for anybody else on the planet), and in Withdrawal she will have ZERO empathy for you. She will just want you to stay away from her. You have to go through Conflict to get to Intimacy: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html


Once again, separate issues conflated into one. Openness & honesty is a huge prerequisite to the Policy of Joint Agreement. Crushed, apologetic, desperate? Those do not sound like terms in the emotional vocabulary of most strong and self-assured women I know.

Hope that helps a little!

Did I mention that our moderators are very protective of our posters? You, sir, have been served.

Somehow, I suspect that you don't HAVE a story.

So, I am not convinced my ww is open and honest with me. I think she is better than she was, but I am not convinced she can be open and honest about everything. How do you move foward with those doubts?

The recovery process has been a battle from day one.

Now that the adrenaline has left my body I question how could my wife act like she did? She admitted to having relationships with men/boys since high school to feel wanted. There wasn't allot of emotional sharing in her house.

Instead of looking forward to exploring every inch of her body, I look at her naked body and wonder how could she have taken off her clothes, layed down and spread her legs for someone else.

Sure we had our issues. I flew around the world for my job and when I was home it was hard to be in the current time zone. I wasn't a jerk, but we were not connected like we should have been.

How do you know if you have feelings left for your spouse or if you are just in a funk that you need to allow time to pass?

THG, Marriage Builders doesn't really advocate the "just let time pass" approach. The real thing to focus on is current issues.

Do you feel she is being open and honest and transparent right now, about current events? i.e., if she says she's going to the store, and you check up on her, does it turn out that she is telling the truth? Dr. Harley says to check up on your spouse for honesty often, until they have proved themselves so well that you literally find the process boring.

As far as the past, it doesn't sound like you are looking for any information that would help you and your wife avoid a previous affair. She has disclosed the identity of the affair partner and most of the details. She may not remember everything in perfect detail!! Most people don't remember every detail of their lives perfectly. If your memory is better than average, it may be hard to empathize with this.

The big problem to me, the elephant in the room, is that you guys still live close to OMs business and you live in an environment full of triggers. This is the elephant in the room that you are ignoring. There is NO GOOD, from a Marriage Builders point of view, to try to get a photographic memory account of the details of the affair, when you are not going to act on those details to get out of the environment that is triggering you. If it is not possible to avoid triggers on your daily drive, then I do not think you can heal if you are not willing to move.

Dr Harley says that when the PRESENT is happy, one does not tend to have resentment about the past. It doesn't sound like you and your wife have taken the steps to make the present happy.


Once you life is turned upside down what is happiness? Is it that you make it through a day without an anxiety attack? Is it that you don't have to worry if your wife is being open and hones with you? Is it that you make it a day without thinking how your wife was ready to leave you for some tool? What is happiness after 21 months of hell?

the elephant in the room...

Last week I was thinking about my grandparents. It was common knowledge that Grandpa had an affair and then they moved 2.5 hours north to the community we still call home.

Maybe that is the problem. My hometown has felt so small (population 350K) since I discovered the affair. But, do you go through the process of finding a new job in another city, renting / selling the house and moving away from our family and run the risk once you get there that you still feel indiferent about your spouse?

Do you feel she is being open and honest and transparent right now...

As far as the past, it doesn't sound like you are looking for any information that would help you and your wife avoid a previous affair...

I feel she is being open and honest about current events.

Isn't the past a good indicator of the future? My approach is that if she is not willing to tell me the whole truth about the past, she is more than likely going to lie to me as she see's fit in the future.

I'm sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but can you do the online program or MB coaching?

Yes, we have been meeting with Steve Harley via telephone for several months.

My ww hates every call. The first few months she would sit on the couce and not say a word. She finally started to talk, but after each call she tries to convince me that we don't need anyones help. We can do it ourselves.

THG12,

My approach is that if she is not willing to tell me the whole truth about the past, she is more than likely going to lie to me as she see's fit in the future.

And also important if she has not come clean with you then she is still lying to you.

God Bless
Gamma

Doormat, can you expand on this? Do you feel this is true for ALL WS's or mainly WW's? I don't know if you are familiar with my sitch, but I have been trying to get my WH on the recovery train for 5 months now so I'm curious about this statement.

Thanks, RQ

Not knowing the truth will leave you with unanswered questions that will still be there 30 years later.

Your GPa, whether it was his idea, GMa's idea, or both, they realized that to recover they needed to move far away post dday.

It sounds like youre heading for a marriage that's just limping along.

Whether its moving away or not, you need to get yourself a clear plan. A plan that lays out what you are going to do to make her happy and the plan for the things she needs to do.

The heavy lifting is to be done by her. She has unload every detail you want. She has to agree to making you happy. she has to want a better marriage.

My wife understands what she created. She fully is aware of the damage done by her. She knows the burden is on her to make things right. She has not waivered from this one iota. I gave her the choice on dday.

Any deviation from the things I expected would have a clearly defined result: Im leaving, taking the kids, and she'd get nothing but the fancy clothing he bought her.

The half-azzed recovery you are mired in stinks.

To me it doesn't sound like your wife has kept any significant details from you. She has identified her affair partner and the means of contact and the circumstances that led to the affair. She may not remember all the exact details of every single contact. That is quite normal, and you will sabotage your own recovery if you expect her to have a flawless memory about it after all this time.

STOP BRINGING IT UP. Dr. Harley's advice is to stop bringing up the affair unless there's some piece of information you need that would shed light on the extraordinary precautions you two need to take now.

You keep bringing it up not because some small details of the past didn't add up, but because your environment is triggering you to constantly remember the affair.

There were some small details of my wife's confession to me that did not add up. I never brought those up to her, I simply put two and two together and moved on. It was insignificant for recovery. Recovery involved us falling in love together. Not me tying her to the rack and extorting a novel-level detailed confession from her.

If you require this kind of level of detail from her, then you will never recover, and I think for your sake you need to divorce her and move on. Plus for her sake, because if you keep acting like this you will be hurting and punishing this woman forever, and women do not have the stamina to take that kind of abuse.

We have established that your environment is triggering you to remember the affair, and you are responding by breaking the guidelines for recovery and bringing it up again. You need to get out of that environment. You are obsessing over things and not acting rationally, and I am wondering if you have considered antidepressant medication? You might be able to get a grasp of clarity with it for a few months to be able to decide what you want to do, whether to pursue recovery or to pursue a single life.

Here is one take on things:

My ww likes to move on. She doesn't like to look back, that is a waste of time. Her approach has been, I am doing what I am told. Which isn't giving me the warm fuzzy's. I really don't want a wife that is a puddle of remorse, but I am looking for someone that has taken responsibility for her actions and managing the recovery process.

I get caught in the, she is supposed to be driving the bus and fall into rather sour moods when she isn't. This has a domino effect. We end up in a bad spot.

Besides wanting to move forward my ww isn't a problem solver. She doesn't spend much time finding options and doesn't really spend time researching answers to problems. She is extremely bright, but problem solving hasn't interested her in the past. That is where I come in... Master Problem Solver. Very good at it.

WW must learn to get into information gathering mode. WW also does not like criticism, of any kind. So by not moving forward it limits the possibility of criticism. Again, recovery to date has been led by external sources, which is not working. WW must take ownership of the recovery process.

Example: Student. Two attitudes. Student 1: Comes to class, tell me what to do and I will do it. Student 2: Takes the ball and runs with it. Hunger for knowledge. Which attitude will succeed at recovery?

Both ww and bs must be in learning mode for the relationship to work. When given advice - do what your told attitude misses the burning desire. I will fix this... no matter what - attitude. Knock me down and I will get up and come at you like a spider monkey approach. ww should practice asking questions and not getting defensive.

Guys tend to make it from week to week on events (eg. camel). Women on the other hand want 'the' regular touch. What have you done for me lately (eg. enter regular providing for animal here). If that caring does not happen - disconnection. Negative slope.

WW is working in a fear of loss mode. But that doesn't cut the mustard. She must be in a pursuit of gain mode. How to make that switch? That is the $100K question.

For me - the problem seems to be a sense of entitlement. I need to become a student of ww. Know what she likes, dislikes and work to meet her EN's. I cannot bring up the affair. Ever again. OK, OK I get that now. We have to be clear with each other what triggers memories and work to remove those triggers. If that means selling the house and moving, so be it. I must make it so that my ww looks forward to spending the rest of our lives together.

When I continue to bring up the affair as a method to prove why I am suffering it gets in our way and starts the domino effect. This leads to 2.5 hours on the telephone with Steve at 6:00 AM in the morning. My apologies to his 7:00 AM appointment.

True only for unfaithful wives. If your husband has spent the last five months unapologetic for his affair, get the @#$* out of there until he is willing to do whatever it takes to recover with you.

Straight forward message. Dr. Harley doesn't like his first or middle name. Identify and remove triggers. Don't try to tough it out.

This clip focused on affair that is still active and BS wondering what to do. Focused mostly about legal action to get custody of children.

THG,

As when we go to the doctors, did you consider a 2nd opinion? A 2nd polygraph with better more comprehensive questions?

As the road said you don't want to be dealing with this 20 or 30 years from now.

The fact that your W signed away her rights to sue really sucks too.

God Bless
Gamma

What questions would you suggest?

I am finally paying attention to the triggers. Example - Saturday we were driving from downtown to the west side of town and I had what is best described as an anxiety attack.

I have begun looking for a new job in another city. Does anyone have suggestions what to do about the triggers in the meantime?

Re-reading "Surviving an Affair". I think this is an autobiography. Even down to the lake restoration committee (BS not WW).

THG12,

Not just questions, but a new polygraph operator you select is in order. Did you get to speak with the polygrapher?

I would think a question like

"is there anything THG does not about this affair or previous affairs"

or

"is there anything of a sexual nature you have not revealed to THG"

Would capture all possible indiscretions possibly including financial etc.

God Bless
Gamma

Why? Is there a working theory on why there is this difference with husbands and women?

What can BH do about this unapologetic mindset or attitude by the WW? Nothing? Is it their pride or ego that prevents them from showing any remorse?

Is it because they do not want to be honest with themselves about the hurt they caused to their H and children?

Should BH have a boundary to deal with this?

Two questions (revising your verbiage):
Q: Why the double-standard for recovery with an unfaithful husband vs. an unfaithful wife?
A: Dr. Harley covers this in detail in "Surviving An Affair" and the latest version of "His Needs, Her Needs". Basically, men's and women's brains are wired very differently. There are two factors at play, if I understand correctly.

• Men can easily maintain multiple polygamous relationships simultaneously due to their natural tendency toward "compartmentalization". Thus the risk of allowing a man back into a marriage after an affair is much higher to the betrayed spouse than it would be with a female who typically finds multiple simultaneous sexual relationships repugnant; he is very likely to "cake-eat" unless he is extremely remorseful at the start of recovery.
• Men typically "compete" better than women. Men can live with a cake-eating spouse longer with fewer health repercussions than women can; women in too long of a "Plan A" usually exhibit decreased immune response and lowered white blood cell count within a few weeks of D-Day, while men can often go months without measurable ill effect on their health. Thus the barrier to recovery with an unfaithful wife is a bit lower than for an unfaithful husband; men compete well with other men for their wife's affection and can often win her back. Dr. Harley does not usually encourage most females to compete for their husband's affection other than an extremely short Plan A.

As a final factor, Dr. Harley's experience indicated in many radio shows is that broken-hearted remorse is usually a prerequisite to successful recovery if the unfaithful spouse is male. Conversely, he's coached many successful marriages where the wife NEVER apologized for her affair.
An apology doesn't change anything. Living your life in a manner consistent with a life-long, monogamous relationship with your spouse changes everything.


Q: "What can BH do about this unapologetic mindset or attitude by the WW?"
A: Live your life without expectations of or demands for an apology. Interpret her choice of you over her affair partner and her choice to give you Care, Protection, Time, and Honesty as an abject apology. Every day that my wife spends time with me recreationally, shares affection with me, talks to me about her hopes and thoughts, and shares intimate time with me, I'm reminded of her commitment. Her life-long dedication to our marriage is a monument to her remorse.

That said, often unfaithful wives ARE very remorseful. But not usually at the beginning of recovery; it takes a few months for them to fall back in love with you again. And then once they have fallen in love again, their compassion for you is VERY high, and their awareness of your pain can often bring about the expression(s) of remorse you seek. But not, strangely enough, always in the WAY you want. My wife's eventual, tearful expressions of disgust with herself and remorse for the effect of her actions on me and our family didn't make me feel better. They made me feel worse.

Wow, what a great post, Doormat_No_More. I think I will bookmark that as it sums up a lot of what I've heard.

Man_learning, I think I posted some radio shows to you about this awhile back. Did you listen to them?

I would say we on this forum do a real disservice when we help a betrayed husband dwell on a lack of remorse on his wife's part, given that such remorse is not typically present, and given that it causes the husband to shy away from doing what is necessary for recovery.

Thanks for the explanations. The unapologetic attitude makes R more difficult and its tough for the H. I have to admit I did think she would show some sincere remorse, not groveling, but still some remorse. Never expected the hostility she hits me with. She admits I do not deserve it and a few seconds later is at it again. I was too tolerant of her disrespectful treatment for too long.

The solution to disrespect is to refuse to be drawn into it. We stopped it VERY quickly once I put my foot down by stating "this conversation is no longer pleasant or safe" and walking out of the room. Took about 4 or 5 times before she caught on that the moment she engaged in disrespect, demands, or anger I would disengage from the conversation completely, up to leaving the house if necessary. My use of that phrase really helped a lot. She realized I wasn't leaving because I was "mad" or "wanted to get away from her"; I was leaving the room or home at that moment because she had made the conversation unsafe and unpleasant, though I had not accused her of that (which would be disrespectful).

So practice a few scenarios in your brain.

What will you do if she is disrespectful to you in the car? I would stop the car, announce that the conversation is no longer pleasant or safe, hand her the keys, and plan to call a taxi if it was too far to walk or take the bus. At no point am I making demands of her or disrespecting her. I am merely enforcing my boundary by refusing to be a part of something with which I disagree.

What about late at night at home? Announcing, "I'm tired. This conversation is no longer pleasant or safe. I'd like to sleep now" works fine, too.

Over breakfast? "This conversation is no longer pleasant or safe. I'd like to talk about something else."

If you need something more generic, a simple "I am not enjoying the conversation right now. Can we talk about something else?" works well. Truth is, my wife and I still use this one regularly. We don't typically use this phrase in response to demands, disrespect, or anger, but because we've brought up a topic where we've previously realized that we have few points of agreement and the topic is unpleasant!

I think it really helps when the BH knows the lack of remorse by the WW is typical.

The reason for this could also provide good information for BH. I still do not know the real reason for this phenomena.

Is there a working theory for this:

Is it their pride or ego that prevents them from showing any remorse?

Is it because they do not want to be honest with themselves about the hurt they caused to their H and children?

Other?

Has Dr. H opined on this point?

Not just WW but all waywards.

Listen to this clip of Dr. H talking about this.
Radio clip on Waywards not showing remorse

I listened. A study of 600 WW showed none had remorse. While some WH no doubt act the same way, it seems the majority do not, see post above on this point. Are you saying there is no difference between WW and WH on this issue?

I'm just saying what Dr. Harley said in the clip in what he's experienced that most waywards don't feel remorse (not all).

Yes, it does. It is easy to get into a bad cycle in your own thinking where you start becoming irrational, and you don't notice it, but you are thinking "This can't work, because she doesn't even acknowledge her mistakes, and ..." You have no idea you're being irrational when you do this, but you are.

I know this, because I markos am the prime offender!!!

It helps to break out of that cycle to combat with the very rational fact that Dr. Harley says this is typical and that he says many marriages have become good despite this.

I know because that's what I focus on to help myself when I start thinking like that.

It's not just affairs, either; it goes for lesser offenses as well. In fact, I've heard Dr. Harley say that women just tend to blame their husbands for their problems, period, and that despite this a couple can still have a good marriage IF a man stays out of playing the blame game and works to become a partner with his wife in the solution to her problems. Then she sees him as the guy who helped her solve them, rather than the cause.

Man_learning: By and large, Dr. Harley strongly de-emphasizes "diagnosing" your spouse in any way. What you seem to be looking for is not just an explanation of why unfaithful wives tend to not show remorse at the beginning of recovery, but a label to affix to this condition.

I cannot stress how fruitless such a pursuit will be for your marital recovery. If you are pursuing some kind of research for publication in a journal, such an investigation might be useful; if you are pursuing this as part of your own marital recovery, finding labels to affix to your spouse's behavior is antithetical to your recovery interests. I've seen time and time again people attempting to diagnose their spouse in some way; it never ends well.

The labels you use in your post above -- "pride", "ego", "do not want to be honest" -- are the disrespect that will lead to the downfall of your attempt at recovery if you allow it to continue.

I will talk about disrespect a little more. Pardon me for going long!

If you want a divorce, you have my blessing and probably that of everyone on this board and Dr. Harley himself. Having an affair is among the worst possible pain you can give another person, and you are perfectly justified if you divorce as a result. Nobody faults you; do it, and do it quickly, like ripping off a band-aid, so that the pain is as short as possible even though it will be very intense.

But if you want to successfully recover a life-long, loving, monogamous relationship, there is a very specific recipe you must follow, and a long-term plan to keep it moving in the right direction. Choosing to recover is completely YOUR decision; we're here to help, but we're not here to convince you to stay married.

A very important part of that recipe is that from this point on, there must be no disrespect in your marriage. In your mind, your wife must be your moral equal in everything. You are not the good person, and she the evil; you are not the humble, honest one, and her the prideful, egotistical, dishonest one. You must diligently work to remove all disrespect, demands, and anger from your speech, and when you feel frustration that threatens to boil over, learn to carefully redirect your mind toward finding solutions rather than labeling the problem.

That thoughtfulness and time spent together meeting the most important emotional needs will be the salvation of your marriage. That thoughtfulness must not be directed toward attempting to justify, rationalize, or explain your wife's behavior. It must be a thoughtfulness directed toward finding solutions to your problems that are win-win, not explanations to behavior that, at its heart, was never logical or rational to begin with and which you -- the victim of this situation -- are not in an objective position to diagnose and treat.

So I strongly encourage you to disregard any "why" questions from this point on. The answer will mostly be "just because", and that answer would frustrate you. The real questions that matter -- once again, if and only if you choose to recover your marriage rather than divorce -- are "how do we solve our problems in ways that build love for one another".

I've heard Dr. Harley chalk it up to the difference between men and women, and give a little more detail than that, but I don't remember it.

Statements like "she's too proud," "she doesn't want to be honest with herself," etc., are disrespectful judgments. So I encourage you not to go there! Trying to psychoanalyze your wife is a love buster. (DJ) Even if you never say it to her, going down this route will subtly alter the way you treat her and make recovery more difficult.

The thing to tell yourself is: "It may not fair to me, and I don't understand why it's this way, but if I accept this it gives us a chance to have a happy marriage later on."

And it works.

I think you may be mistaken in part of what your are saying or thinking. I do no think as you did or do: "This can't work, because she doesn't even acknowledge her mistakes, and ..."

I think its easier if they do acknowledge their mistakes early on, but if that is just not the way women work, I can accept it.

There probably is a reason for it if that is in fact the reality.

To me it's reasonable and wise to want to learn something about this issue. It tells me my situation is not out of the norm, and her mindset does not prevent R. That's a huge bit of info.

Also I have not made statements like she is "too proud," "does not want to be honest with herself." I do, however, ask questions like that. Is wondering about that also a disrespectful judgment? Is asking what Dr. H's view is on the subject also a disrespectful judgment?

Is it a disrespectful judgment to think that a WW might be in a fog or partial fog from an A?

Is it a disrespectful judgment for me to think that my WW's affair caused some addictive behavior?

Where does recognizing a reality cross into a disrespectful judgment?

Technically, all these things cross into a disrespectful judgment when you say them to your wife. For example, if you asked your wife "Is it your pride or your ego that prevents you from showing remorse?" I'm sure you'd agree with me that she'd find that very disrespectful. Even though it's a "question," not a "statement," it's still disrespectful.

But even if you are not saying it, it may not be a disrespectful judgment, but it is likely to hinder your recovery. Knowing that this mindset is typical and does not prevent recovery is helpful, but the questions you are wondering about border into an unproductive blame game.

That said, I encourage you to write Dr. Harley and ask him about this. If you are wondering why, ask him why he thinks it is. Maybe he can go into more detail. But this question is academic; it won't change anything about how you should approach recovery, and I'm not sure if it would help further motivate you to take the steps necessary for recovery.

Recovery is very much about motivation:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html

Where does learning about or recognizing a reality cross into a disrespectful judgment?

You lost me when you seem to suggest that I am a "victim" and my WW's "behavior ... was never logical or rational to begin with..." I would not disagree with you, but if I think that way would that constitute a disrespectful judgment?

Please reread this from DoNoMo:


Dwelling on "why" will hinder your recovery. And, yes, trying to diagnose your wife's behavior is disrespectful.

When it passes by your lips.

You clarified thing and understand better now. I agree that it would be unproductive for me to ask questions like that to my wife.

Someday I may ask Dr. H about it. But for now I can accept the reality and move on.

.

Do you mean passes my lips to my wife's ears?

Does the same apply for those words or questions passing my keyboard to this forum? Or to a mental health professional?

No, it's not technically a disrespectful judgment if you don't say it,

but if you dwell on the questions you are asking, you're likely to get into a situation where you see recovery as "her responsibility" and fill yourself with resentment and prevent your own recovery.

It's better to focus on the BEHAVIOR of recovery.

I think a lot about the failed recoveries I see on this board, particularly the people who came here, disappeared, then came back a year or two (or five) later and said "We're doing everything right, but it's not working."

Usually what we find is, they aren't following the plan. They aren't spending fifteen hours a week giving each other their undivided attention meeting the four intimate emotional needs of recreational companionship, intimate conversation, affection, and sexual fulfillment. They are engaging in love busters like selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. They are dwelling on mistakes of the past. They aren't negotiating their problems to find solutions that both are enthusiastic about; they are engaging in independent behavior. One or both may even continue to be dishonest and have a secret second life.

Somewhere along the road, someone accepted this situation, and the marriage failed to recover.

Along the way we often see people focused on the wrong thing. A common thing we see betrayed wives focused on is "did he love her?" Sometimes they are bringing up the affair repeatedly with this question. Sometimes they are blogging here endlessly about it. But regardless of what they may be talking about, the problem is that they are not following the plan.

The people who follow the plan for recovery (both husband and wife) recover. The ones who have something lacking, don't.

When a husband talks a lot about his wife's remorse or lack of remorse, I have to start wondering if he needs to redirect his efforts back towards the real work of recovery: making love bank deposits through the policy of undivided attention, and avoiding love bank withdrawals.

No I am not getting that undivided attention.

That being the case, this is where you need to focus.

You can recover without her remorse, if you get undivided attention. And you will be in much better shape than many couples that come here where the WS is extremely demonstrative in remorse, but never does follow through on following the recovery plan. There are lots of those, and they don't make it. They come back years later, still remorseful, wondering why it's not working when they are "doing everything."

So your earlier post about accepting this for now and maybe asking Dr. Harley some day down the road is spot on.

I find this exchange fascinating and informative. I don't want to T/J, but would ask if markos and/or doormat_no_more would drop by my thread (How Long?) and discuss how this may, or may not, apply to my situation.

Definitely.It would be disrespectful of me to say. In my opinion, when you are "processing" your reality, no. When you are stating a conclusion, maybe.

In radio shows in recent weeks, however, Dr. Harley has emphasized equality -- treating your spouse as exactly as moral or immoral as you are -- as a prerequisite to recovery. Those who cling to any notion of superiority to or disrespect for their spouse tend to be unsuccessful.

So it's not really just what you say, it's also very helpful to manage what you think. And that comes down into the "managing memories" thread posted a couple years back...

Quoted For Truth (QFT).

I too can relate to this, yes Im working on recovery. but i also face the same problems those memories just pop up to set you off for a day of depression. I have to struggle with the fact he took days off to spend with ow, had long lunches with ow never with me, a romantic night in hotel which also included oral sex as well several times of sex, during footy. which now i struggle with the footy which is a huge part of our life. the worse is hearing they hated it when u know they were enjoying themselves. I know how your feeling it also makes you feel like your not good enough. the thing that annoys me the most is putting my girls & my health,happiness & saftey at risk. I think these feelings are something a ws could never understand, I hear all the time from h & people just forget & get over. we would if we could............

kimono, please take this over to your own thread and update us. Footy? What is that? Please respond on your own thread - thanks!

footy= australian afl football, h whole family watch, they visit then change channel, people invite us over to watch, we usually have the grand final party. so as you can see I have football all around me & at the moment it reminds of the romantic sex filled night(h got to fill his fantasy of sex all night long)how can i ever feel that he's enjoying the night with me watching footy. Although he says he dosnt think about it that way, it would have to be pretty happy memory for him. I hate the way the A make you feel in inadquate.......

It has been ~ 3 years since D day and I continue to struggle to put my ww's betrayal behind me. Yes, we have good days - but what does it take to go from surviving day by day to truly recover?

Hi THG12, when recovery is not complete, the mind tends to wander to the tragedy of the past. When the present is happy, that doesn't happen. I would focus all of your attention on creating a romantic, affair proofed marriage. That will truly put the affair behind you.

"when recovery is not complete"


It has taken three years for the 'heavy' feeling to leave my body. I can finally drive down the local roads without anxiety attacks and triggers. I lost my 25 year job early this year, mostly due to the infidelity. It took 8 weeks to identify multiple job opportunities. I have had to start my career all over again.

I just struggle to wrap my arms around what has happened. My wife's behavior, the destruction that followed.

How do you find happiness after being betrayed? I see two options one is bad (recovery) the other is worse (divorce). Yes it has gotten better, but what does it take to get to a complete recovery?

I re-read my initial post 'Holiday Party' from December 2010 earlier today.

A few months ago I was sitting in a co-workers office and saw the pictures of him and his wife. I thought to myself, wow how lucky this guy is. It doesn't matter if his marriage is good or bad, but at least he has not been betrayed.

I feel that I was in a state of shock and kept moving my feet forward for months. Now I have found my balance, things are better, but it still is not complete. What is missing? Why am I still sad and feel such a sense of loss?

I need some help driving to the finish line....

Driving to the finish line involves creating a romantic relationship with your wife while affair proofing your marriage. Another very, very effective way to recover is to move out of the house/area where you WERE when you discovered the affair.

How much undivided attention time do you have with your wife every week? Would you say that you are in love?

We spend allot of time together. Return from work weeknights ~5:30 PM and cook dinner, sit and chat, go for walks when the weather is nice, bike rides. We go out together almost every Fri night to dinner, drinks, watch local bands...

We spend time together on the weekends. Grocery shopping, project around the house, shopping, recreation, raking leaves, family events...

I had a global role from 2008 - 2011. When I would travel to Europe or Asia my co workers would ask about the 100K miles of travel every year. I said, it works out great. Both of my kids are in college and now I can afford to spend time on my expanded responsibilities.

I had a couple of opportunities to be unfaithful. Serious chances, but I am such a loyal person it would never have happened. Never. That is one of the reasons I struggle so much.

We went to the same high school, lived around the block from each other and started dating 5 years after school. Yes - I am in love with my wife.

We bought our home 20 years ago and totally renovated it over the years. I turned down two jobs out of state during the job search, because we are so close to our families, especially our children. Moving out of state is a tough topic to obtain joint agreement.

One thing that made a huge difference in our marriage was going through the Marriage Builders course in 2007. That pushed our marriage to a whole new level. It is a little different now in that you don't have to travel to another city to go through the initial seminar and it is cheaper. But they still assign you a coach who guides you through the lessons over the span of a year. You also have daily access to Dr Harley. It is worth every penny of the program. And they test you to make sure you are falling in love.

I would also broach the subject of moving with your wife. Everyone I know who has moved was extremely happy they did it.

The amount of time that you spend meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs is very probably NOT 15-20 hours per week. Time spent at home tends to be very poor quality and sporatic UA time because it is too easy to get distracted by other hobbies, habits.

This is the first place I would focus. Sit down and schedule your dates with the worksheet and stick to the schedule religiously. The people who cut corners on this step always have the worst recoveries because they are not in love.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4508_tuaw.html

I second that.

My DDay was six months after your's, and I have none of that residual resentment. We are living 500 miles away from the A location, now. The relentless bombardment of triggers is gone. It makes a huge difference.

Now, I suppose I could work up resentment over the fact that these life changes were forced on me. Actually, reflecting on all the changes, it is clear to me that they have been for the better. What is there to resent? Resentment requires that I build a fantasy past existence in my head, and then blame the loss of that fantasy on the A. Why do that, when the present is so much better?

You need to build a better present. All of the tools are at your disposal to do so. You just need to pick them up and get started. Step 1 - Move. Go somewhere where you and your wife can build a new life together.

I have printed out the undivided attention worksheet and will use it to document our plan and report the actual UA time over the next couple of weeks.

I agree that when we have traveled together in the past 2 years I sleep much better and I do not think about the betrayal. It is almost a magic pill. My daughter just graduated college and moved back into the area and my son moved back to attend graduate school. I am convinced moving will help me, but it will also bring a whole new set of problems to our relationship.

We have discussed moving and what else can be done to help with the recovery process if we stay in the area. My wife was raised in a don't ask, don't tell, don't talk about it family. I was not. Every topic from our first call with Steve Harley to the lie detector test was received with a 'not in my lifetime' response. When she finally warms up to the ideas and tries them they have all helped. Much like mr Eureka - I believe she sees each of them as being for the better.

My wife has come a long, long way. But to me it is like the JFK assassination. It is an event that will leave a scar forever, how do you just stop talking about it. Thinking about it. Pretending it has not happened?

What I hear from you is one of the most effective ways is to pack up and move away.

OK - That is back on the table, but it will not happen over night. We will work on the UA time. Anything else?

I would definitely go through the MB course. Since do-it-yourself has not worked, it is time to step it up and get professional help. You failed at doing it yourself and I have no doubt there is a lot you are missing. The Harley's pinpointed a major miss in my own recovery on the first day of the seminar. [we were not using the POJA] You need professional help if you are this bad this far out.

In fact, you might want to first try counseling with Dr Jennifer Chalmers, Dr Harley's daughter, to motivate your wife into going through the program.

Try to keep your focus on the present. Your efforts need to be directed toward making a present that results in a better future. Thinking about the past affair is a dead end. That is why the triggers are so bad. Even when you think they are under control, they are still hurting you by drawing you back. Get out of Dodge, and you will feel much better!

My apologies for not being clear. We have been working with Steve Harley. Although over the past 6 - 12 months the calls have been 30 - 60 days apart.

He has been extremely helpful.

My wife dreads each and every call. He is telling me to change the channel. My remote must be out of batteries, because as I have said before I find it very very hard to just forget and move forward.

I am reminded of the Austin Powers movies, where he is in search of his Mo-Jo. I feel that I have lost mine and I am not sure what to do to get it back.

Something has been taken from me. Something very important. And I am being told the best way to move forward is to forget that it happened. Is that really possible?

I can remember feeling the same way myself.


After I found MB, I realized that continuing to think about it kept me stuck in the past and did nothing to make me feel better or improve my situation. I had to change my focus to the PRESENT and the FUTURE. When I started to look back, I had to force myself to keep looking forward and to look at FWH's actions now, in the present.


It is not about pretending that it didn't happen. It is about changing your lifestyle to make it impossible to happen again and rebuilding the romantic love. It is about living in the present.

It is only an event that will scar forever if you allow that.

Stop thinking like that.

I think we have all felt this at one time or another in the recovery process, it hurts to have a part of our beliefs and peacefulness ripped from us��.but when we say those vows it is in good times and bad and this is just one of those bumps that couples that have been married forever talk about and you will too���.
Life isn't easy none of it�..but if you make sure each day feels like you want it to with your wife you will look forward to tomorrow and stop thinking about yesterday �..I am 4 years out just went pass the D-day anniversary still thought about it for I second and then move on to the day with my husband���.
I dont' like what happened and I guess I could focus on that but we are to young to give away anymore of our lives for something like this���it isn't right but you do have a choice now how the rest of your life goes��.make it count for you��I would wake up each day and love your spouse and make sure with a good solid plan together that nothing will ever hurt your future and your happiness together ever again��..some things are harder now and take more of an effort for me to move past as I am sure it is for my spouse as it is yours as well���..it may be different than what you believed but it can be better if you work together and have the connection and love you can share don't let this be a barrier you will regret �...

Did you move away from where the affair occurred?

Are you doing the homework? For example, how does your UA time stack up?

[quote=MelodyLane Are you doing the homework? For example, how does your UA time stack up? [/quote]

We should probably turn off the TV and focus on each other more in the evening. We spend allot of time together, but as you mention we probably have fallen back into some old habits.

We spend most of our time together on the weekends. We either have projects planned, recreational activities... We focused so much of our time on our family and kids that we really don't have allot of close friends, now that the kids are off doing their own thing.

That is one area we have discussed that could be improved.

I don't have my motivation back yet. Before I had 50 things going at one time, both work and family. My imagination, drive and mo-jo have been in neutral since Oct 15. 2010.

When it comes to personality types I am a Thinker, Director, Socializer. My weakness is Relator. My job is problem solving. I am really pretty good at it.

My parents divorced when I was 18. I have seen my father move from one relationship to another for years. I swore that would never happen to me. My mother was an alcoholic. She recovered and went on to run a non-profit group home for recovering alcoholics. I fought to keep my marriage at a time when my wife was reenacting scenes from the Blair Witch Project. Now that the numbing chemical has left my brain and I am getting feeling back, I need help to really move forward.

Things are better. Don't get me wrong. But they are not right yet.

Has anyone recovered without packing up and moving? If so, how?

How do you get that feeling back for your spouse after they have given themselves to another man? How do you move forward without ever looking back?

So you are aware that this program doesn't work without the UA time? Dr Harley would refuse to counsel any couple who would not do this step when he was in full time practice because he said "my program will not work without it."

Yes, that is a great reminder to remain diligent and focused on the UA time. We do spend allot of time together, but the quality of that time can be improved.

Step 1 (check).

I have had a general lethargic feeling about most everything in my life lately. It has been a put one foot in front of the other approach. It has worked, it has gotten easier, but it isn't where I want it to be yet. Any other suggestions? I promise the UA checklist is printed out and will be discussed tonight.

Here is the thing to remember. You can send 100 hours together but it won't make any difference if you are not meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs. Time at home, for example, is largely useless for most couples. And any time with others or watching tv ent count. The not effective time is out on dates. Harley recommends 4 -4 hour dates.

I couldn't agree more. 60 per cent of marriages experience infidelity and most keep it quiet - how could you possibly know he hasn't been betrayed?

I remember feeling bummed when my friend got engaged a week past D Day. That was a short while before she caught her fianc� cheating on her. We all look over garden fences enviously when unhappy but the solution is to work harder on our own yard.



You should get out of the house entirely. Plan dates. Fun ones. There's no point sitting there wishing you could turn the TV on. No matter how riveting the other person's company there are too many distractions at home.



I've heard of it being done but only when there was no chance of running into the OP or there were no triggers in that place.

For example even though I chose a personal recovery I had to make sure there were no triggers in my life for my own mental health. I didn't move but that is because all the A locations happened away from my home or in places I don't see on a day to day basis. I don't run into OW, or expect to, because of my location and workplace versus hers. So I am happy and healed.

I don't see how on earth you can recover when driving down the trigger highway every day. That will never get better, you will just become more accustomed to the misery.

Affection is my wife's #1 emotional need. How do you meet someone's emotional need when you are still hurt from their betrayal? How do you say well that was unfortunate. Wow my life turned upside down for 24 months. Now let's start meeting those needs of yours...

I've heard of it being done but only when there was no chance of running into the OP or there were no triggers in that place.

For example even though I chose a personal recovery I had to make sure there were no triggers in my life for my own mental health. I didn't move but that is because all the A locations happened away from my home or in places I don't see on a day to day basis. I don't run into OW, or expect to, because of my location and workplace versus hers. So I am happy and healed.

I don't see how on earth you can recover when driving down the trigger highway every day. That will never get better, you will just become more accustomed to the misery.[/quote]


You kind of hit that one on the head as they say. I have grown accustomed to living with the misery and it is beginning to show that I am struggling to truly recover.

No, no. Not each others TOP needs - the four INTIMATE needs. These are intimate conversation, affection, SF and RC.

A woman may have a top need for FS, but she won't think much of cash instead of a date. You have to date and meet the intimate needs to be in love.

Some people have an issue with SF early on in recovery. Or some of the others. But these are the needs which give the biggest bang for your buck. They will recover you both better than any other.

If you have a problem meeting a specific need, focus on what you can do. You can have fun recreation with your wife can't you? Talk? What are you doing there otherwise?



How else can you recover? It's like a physical therapy patient saying "How can you expect me to try walking again! I was just in a car accident!"

The therapist would simply say they can't ever expect to walk again unless they get up and practice.

You kind of hit that one on the head as they say. I have grown accustomed to living with the misery and it is beginning to show that I am struggling to truly recover.



[/quote]

I kicked my husband out, so obviously it is easier for me to create a trigger-free life than those in marital recovery.

However there is no way I could live near the A locations. Not even though I am on my own. Absolutely no way.

It will always be the greatest pain - the biggest wound I ever received. Dr H isn't kidding when he compares it to rape. I would never want to be near a daily reminder of what I went through.

[quote=indiegirl How else can you recover? It's like a physical therapy patient saying "How can you expect me to try walking again! I was just in a car accident!"

The therapist would simply say they can't ever expect to walk again unless they get up and practice. [/quote]


I understand the PT analogy, but I would be self motivated to walk again and it probably wasn't my ww that ran me over.

In my head I know why I don't want to be divorced. I have seen that from my father and it is not what I want for me. It seems more like a bad or worse option. How do you motivate yourself for the bad option when you still feel vulnerable? I sit and talk with my wife and feel that she gets it. Then I am driving home from work and the OH [censored] that sucks feeling hits. How do you get the 'wow I can't wait for PT' feeling?

I understand the PT analogy, but I would be self motivated to walk again and it probably wasn't my ww that ran me over.

In my head I know why I don't want to be divorced. I have seen that from my father and it is not what I want for me. It seems more like a bad or worse option. How do you motivate yourself for the bad option when you still feel vulnerable? I sit and talk with my wife and feel that she gets it. Then I am driving home from work and the OH [censored] that sucks feeling hits. How do you get the 'wow I can't wait for PT' feeling?


[/quote]

Eliminate your triggers!!!!!

You just said it yourself... Talking to your wife you feel fine, so long as she gets it and is being helpful. But when DRIVING HOME FROM WORK, you don't feel as good.

Triggers. Your wife isn't triggering you, the A locations are.

The way I see it, the affair-spouse is a different creature than the post-affair-spouse. The drug-level influence over them is rather visible during the A. When they no longer have that influence, they act different and they are no longer a trigger.

It's like if a spouse stabs you as an unexpected side effect of a medication which drugged them. You won't fear them, or be triggered by them, if you know they are definitely off it.

How do you meet that EN? You meet that EN. This is the reason you have not recovered. You are not meeting each others EN's so you are in a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage. It will just get worse.

Like Dr Harley said: "my program doesn't work without this step."

See, you are waiting for a magic feeling to attack you against your will. That will never happen because feelings follow actions. Your actions won't allow any feelings to develop.

Initially you use your intelligence to override your feelings. You do this until the feelings come. You have poor marriage habits and your marriage won't change until your habits change.

The #1 piece of advice that I keep getting is to move in order to eliminate the triggers.

My wife did not leave the affair, She told me that she was going to get breast implants and that if I said no, that we would get a divorce. At that point I told her she was having an affair and that it had to stop. She looked at me stone faced and said "no I am not". One week later I found the email evidence and she spent the next few hours denying it, before she finally gave me a small piece of the truth.

The OG was the owner of the company she worked for. She had worked there for 25 years. I found MB website the first weekend. I told ww that if she left the company I would work to forgive her. She did not leave. At one point I told her she would have to move out. She did so. Moved to her parents house. Spent 1 hour on the telephone with OG and then came running home asking for forgiveness.

I was told for 4 - 6 weeks that it was over, they had a strictly professional relationship and that everything was back to normal. Well MB Forum convinced me within 5 minutes to visit the OG wife and break the news to her.

I boarded a plane on a business trip to AZ 3 months later. I told WW that if she didn't quit her job that she needed to be out of the house by the time I got home. We spent hours on the telephone while I was traveling. She finally agreed to quit her job. Of course it had to be delayed several weeks because of a co-workers plan to have their wisdom teeth pulled. I agreed.

She finally quit her job. Spent the new few weeks on the bedroom floor grieving the loss of the OG. I spent the next few months with anxiety attacks every time we drove past any one of 20 triggers, including the OG's new gas station they built 3 blocks from my house.

I am sure there are dozens of similar horror stories. I guess what I am hearing is that I am struggling to go to PT and learn to walk again. I need to understand why I don't have the motivation to tell my wife that she looks beautiful in the morning before work. I need to understand why I am going through the motions and not able to engage in our marriage. I need to ask Goose for help - bad Top Gun reference.

[quote=MelodyLane See, you are waiting for a magic feeling to attack you against your will. That will never happen because feelings follow actions. Your actions won't allow any feelings to develop. [/quote]



I have feelings, they are just not the ones that prompt me to fill my ww's love bucket. The feelings are anger, disgust, helpless, worry, anxiety, doubt, frustration, disappointment, hurt, sadness, shock, depression, PTSD, humiliation, betrayal.

The question is how do you overcome those feelings to meet your ww's EN's.

Again, my WW didn't leave the affair. The OG was going to loose his business if he continued to pursue her. He walked away from her. She stayed around as long as she could waiting for him to change his mind.

One of the comments that I keep going back to is something that I continue to tell my wife. She asks me - don't I seem different than back then.

My comment is that I must have been drinking a glass of denial each and every day because if I would have thought for one second that she was still pursuing the OG, she would have been out of the house and out of my life.

That is very hard for me. Even the first post in Dec 2010, she is begging to go to this stupid work holiday party and I totally believe why she wants to go. Duhhhh - how could I be so stupid.

I tell her there is no way she is going to work out (post D day) at his unofficial gym in an empty office, yet she turns it on me that I am being controlling. So after a huge argument in the morning I drive her work out gear to the office and drop it off for her. Here you go. Again I trusted her.

Didn't understand why she couldn't wait for me to leave the office, so that I didn't run into the OG.

I guess I just naturally trusted my wife. Even after she betrayed me I trusted her to no end. Now I am having a hard time getting back on that horse or into the fight. Does that make sense?

I'm trying to read this thread and do not have access...it could be because the account I am using is restricted ?

How do I get it fixed ?

Thank you.

THG,

Was there ever a downside for the OM? Please tell me you sued the company.

Did you ever expose the OM widely to his children relatives coworkers at his church?

God Bless
Gamma

THG- I could not relate to you more. I know exactly how you feel. Feb 2014 will be 2years into our R. Feel free to read my thread in the recovery forum here for the details.

What I can tell you is that if you don't use MB like the Bible and incorporate every single step, most likely your R will suffer.

If you don't remove ALL the triggers in your environment, as you know, the feelings will stay at the surface. No one wants those constant reminders thrown in their face.

One way you can overcome those feelings to meet her EN's is by believing that "feelings follow actions". Dr Harley encourages couples to be enthusiastic about meeting EN's. How can you meet them for her in a way that works for both of you? Has she been able to make a list of specific things you can do for her that do meet her needs while at the same time make you feel comfortable?

I really encourage you to practice re-directional thinking. How can you 'change the channel in your mind' when the thoughts start to creep in? I have had to practice this technique. But, I have removed all triggers within my control from our environment and it has been a huge help.

We have even gone as far as not going to my In-Laws because they live in the town that the A took place. This has caused a big strain on our family but I refuse to just 'suck it up'. No way. I might be ready at some point to go back there but not now.

How do you feel about how you both us POJA? How do you feel about the EP's? Are you feeling safer with her yet?

POJA, RH and UA time have made the biggest impact on our R. If you aren't getting your UA time in, you will not R. Honestly, it took me almost 1-1/2 years to start to fall back in love with my FWW.

Remember that the times you feel terrible are just that...1 point in time. That does not define your future. Try to open your Love Bank. I know how hard it is. You don't want to be hurt again. But if you don't, then you will never fall back in love together.

Finally, don't put too much pressure on yourself. This is absolutely a marathon not a race. Take it one step at a time. 2-5 years is the average R. Remember that!

I have feelings, they are just not the ones that prompt me to fill my ww's love bucket. The feelings are anger, disgust, helpless, worry, anxiety, doubt, frustration, disappointment, hurt, sadness, shock, depression, PTSD, humiliation, betrayal.

The question is how do you overcome those feelings to meet your ww's EN's.

[/quote]

You meet her needs just like we told you to do. Feelings follow actions. Stop talking about the affair and start scheduling UA time where you meet each others ENs. This is very basic stuff that you should have been doing a long, long time ago.

You have to actually DO the program in order for it to work.

One other thing that might encourage you.

STOP talking about the past. Everything. Anything. I don't like talking about last weekend, let alone last year. Staying in the NOW has taken a long time to train myself (and I still struggle at times). However, talking about today and planning for tomorrow while being forward thinking, has helped me R.

Get focused on today and tomorrow. Stop telling the story. Stop looking to the past for answers. Just stop.

This is one of the things my wife and I continue to say to each other (I'm the wayward spouse):

"We are moving forward together...moving from the past."

"he past is history, don't dwell on it - just focus on us and out future. That's what is important"

I texted her these messages just today actually - it is really what has helped us more than anything.

I exposed him to his business and to his wife. His father who started the business is elderly and has memory loss issues. My wife went to their lawyers without me the day after I exposed. They convinced her to sign a waiver saying it was consenting.

What I really want to do is send out a mailing to everyone he does business with. I have his photo from the charity children's cancer golf outing he invited her to from work and I want to add a nice caption under the photo and mail it out. I have been fighting that urge for several months now.

This is a link that Brain posted to me on dealing with triggers (I hope it works) perhaps you may find it useful to!


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2764563

Thank you - I appreciate your insights...

Thank you for the radio archive link.

We removed as many triggers as possible short of moving away from the city we live in. I asked her to donate her golf clubs, bicycle, and other things that were associated with the affair. Months later she reluctantly made a trip to Goodwill.

When we are in the car together I suggested she hold my hand while driving past a trigger. She has done that each and every time since then and it has helped.

One of the other big things she did was to go to our church and participate in reconciliation. That was a very positive event for her and me too.

So now after three years the big one is do I simply have to get out the bible when I have down time in my brain and stop thinking about the betrayal or do I have to find a job in another state and move away.

I keep hearing that it would be best to move. Thoughts?

Yes, move and use the program. It works!

We moved from one end of the province to the end, and it's honestly saved our marriage.
It was the BEST decision we made. I say GO FOR IT!!!!

THG,

Has your sex life returned to normal or better than normal?

In spite of your WW signing that paper I would still hand this over to a bottom dwelling attorney with a full page ad in the phone book and let him go after OM and his company.

God Bless
Gamma

Yes. I am with you, but we spoke to a lawyer and there isn't really a case.

Reading how you think and feel, THG, is very much like I used to think, so I think I understand your point of view, your feelings of hurt and betrayal. I needed to find a way forward to get out of my negative thinking, dwelling on the A and digging for more information and you ask about similar help. I'd like to share the way I found helpful to me and hope it might be helpful to you too.

I started by looking at my beliefs. I believed that my H was totally to blame for his EA. I took no responsibility. I did not understand Dr Harley's concept of "just compensation". To me it looked like my H had the enjoyment of an EA and now I was asked to make him happy with a great marriage. It felt like he got away without any punishment and now was even rewarded for his bad behaviour with me fulfilling his EN and giving him a better marriage than before.

I could not stop thinking about the A because doing so seemed like accepting that my H would get away without punishment. So while thinking about it hurt me and made me sad and bitter, it also served to show my sadness and hurt to my husband and remind him of how bad he had been. Bringing up his EA also reminded him, so again it served to punish him. He calls it "rubbing his nose in it".

Can you identify with any of my beliefs and feelings?

The change for me came when I found myself experiencing what it was like to be on his side when my need for SF was sometimes greater than his need now. That situation was a novelty to me. I had spared no thought to what it must have felt for him during the years when he did not get this need met by me.

I started to look at what I had done to cause his love for me to dwindle and that generated empathy in me for him. It softened me. I could then see that he is not totally to blame. I have to take some blame too.

Dr Harley says that we are responsible for how much love our spouse feels for us.

It might be more helpful for you to think about that and how life felt like from your wife's point of view. It might help you to not see her as only the villan and you only the good guy.

If you acknowledge and accept that you didn't fulfill your wife's EN and that she lost her love for you because of that which paved the way to her having an A, it will help you to feel a little sorry for her situation too and that empathy might help you be more open to giving her affection. That has been my experience.

Looking at it this way has helped me change my thinking from laying all the blame on my H so that I can feel blameless. Maybe that is what Steve Harley means when he says that you need to change your channel?

Blaming your wife for everything might keep you stuck in your negative thinking. You need to WANT to stop thinking those thoughts in order to be willing to distract your thoughts away from the A. Maybe by generating some understanding for your wife's side of the story and creating empathy for her, you can open yourself up to be willing to let go of the past and concentrate on making the present great? That has been my way of moving forward. I hope it might be helpful to you too.

Edited for spelling mistake.

Thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts. I appreciate it. I too struggle to take any responsibility for my wife's infidelity. Yes, I took a job which required 100K miles of travel each year. Yes, that job added allot of stress to our lives. But, that job also allowed us to send our children to private colleges. We looked each other in the eye and agreed.

I had opportunities to be unfaithful while traveling. It must have been something in my Germany heritage because a young, very attractive colleague in Germany was interested in me. I did not pursue her. End of story. A senior business leader was traveling to our hometown on business and she made it very clear that she would like to 'hook up' while she was in town. Following the team dinner I said thank you for the offer to go out for drinks, got into my car and drove home. I could not break my vow with my wife and mess around with someone else. No matter what - I couldn't do it.

That makes it very difficult for me to see it from her perspective. I am not trying to play the I am better than you card, but my Catholic education kicks in or something that I just could not betray my spouse. When I was in high school a girl that I had dated 'went out' with someone else. Once that happened we were done. I never dated her again.

Funny thing is the night I met my wife at a local bar, this other girl had just come back from college for winter break. We talked for a few minutes. I ended the conversation by - I will give you a call. She said 'sure you will'. I never did.

To answer your question, what have I done to cause her love to dwindle? I traveled 100K miles per year. I worked really really hard in a Global Directors role for a Fortune 250 company. I did not meet my wife's EN's. Yes, I get the fact that the door was left open. But, I have to wonder doesn't morality and a belief that even if what we have is flawed I cannot act like a 20 year old again. I vowed to a person that I go to be with every night not to do that.

What I have learned the past few weeks is that I do have an obsessive personality. Heck I spent 5 years on a crusade to create a non-profit to take over city run facilities because they were run so poorly. So in the past few weeks besides working to improve our UA time I have worked hard to stop obsessing. The author of the book that I read believes that the obsessive thoughts are covering up our ability to feel our true feelings. I have to agree because since that time I have tried to think less and feel more. The feeling that has come to the surface is anger. Old fashioned un-abashed anger. Man am I mad.

I believe that before I can forgive my wife, I have to be able to accept what has happened. That is very hard while constantly being surrounded by reminders of the past. Again this weekend I drive down the main East / West highway and count 5 - 6 reminders of the past. The sadness soon follows.

Another author wrote about triggering memories and how our brains are hard wired. He used the dog, bell and food experiment to prove his point. Ring a bell, 30 seconds later feed your dog. Repeat for several days. Now ring the bell, but do not feed the dog. The dog starts to salivate. The dogs brain has been hard wired.

Everyone on the forum believes the right answer to move forward and past the triggers is to get a new job 100's of miles away and move. The only person that hasn't suggested that is Steve Harley. I asked myself why? I think Steve understands that there will be no support system in a new city and that moving will solve one problem and present a new problem. Heck I even gave my father a hard time when he moved to Florida with his new wife a decade ago.

What happened to the saying God, Family, and [enter your favorite NFL team here]?

I will create a list of how I did not meet my wife's ENs and share that list with her tonight. I will also simply enjoy the holidays with my family!

Our young priest shared a story at church on Sunday. An Irish man's father was dying and he traveled home to be with him before he passed. He was too late. When he saw his brother he asked, did Dad have any last words. He said no, Mom was by his side the whole time.

He talked about how Joseph, Jesus' father does not have one quote in the entire bible. A strong quiet man who took in a son that he knew was not his and raised him as if he was his own son. Gave so that his family could have a better life.

If I had been unfaithful to my spouse, what would I ask her to do and what would I expect of myself? That might just be the issue. While I expect my wife to act with humility, remorse, and regret it took 18 months before she started to work on our recovery.

THG12, you don't need Steve to tell you to move. You know it would be the best thing to do. Every person on this forum who moved is very glad they did because it absolutely transformed their marriage. The new problems it might create are minor in comparison to living and breathing the trauma of an affair.

I don't know anyone in 12 years on this board who wasn't happy they moved afterwards.

If you need someone to tell you to move, why not write Dr. Harley? He gives this advice all the time.

Morality does not stop people from having affairs. Most of the people we meet here are very moral in all other areas of their lives. They know that adultery is wrong. Not that you are to blame for her affair, but your traveling job just made it more tempting. It made adultery tempting because you were not there to meet her needs. Your separation created an emotional detachment that made her vulnerable to an affair. She was a starving woman who was presented with a buffet. And she couldn't resist the temptation.

I agree that empathy is a good idea, but it won't solve your problem. The solution to your problem is to create a happy, romantic marriage TODAY. When you do that, your mind will not wander to the past. When you are happy in the present, you are not thinking of the past.

If you are spending 20+ hours of UA time with your wife and doing all the right things to create a happy marriage, you might have to accept that you are going to have to move.

I hate to see you struggle like this knowing what a true recovery looks like. You can have that. Have you thought about signing up for the MB program and taking that route? That program is supervised by Dr Harley and you would have daily access to him.

MelodyLane - We are working on the UA time. Yes, it does help,

I really do not know if moving is the best thing to do. Honest. I realize it may be the best thing for others, but not for me.

I know that I feel much better when I am out of town. I get that. But, I am the one who counseled my father and later my mother (divorced when I was 18) not to move to Florida and Arizona. I suggested they rent winter homes and keep a downsized residence in our hometown. They both moved and they are both back living in town.

When I was 20 - 21 I lived in Dallas, TX for 2 years. I had a great job, enjoyed the city, but moved back 'home'. A friend even joked that I spent so much time traveling when I was young that I would be the one that lives in our hometown. He was right. Most of my close friends have moved away. I am back living in the community where I grew up. Renovated a 1940's house and made it our home.

When you told me to get off my duff and tell the OM's - wife and expose to the world I took action within 5 minutes. I got out of my desk chair and drove to her house. I knew in my heart it was the right thing no questions asked.

This is different. I can definitely see the positives for me, but one of the big contributing factors to the infidelity was that our children had both left the house and were in college. It wasn't as much me traveling for work as it was my wife didn't have the kids to look after. She was lonely.

So now to solve the trigger problem I am going to create another problem. I am not sure that I will be happy living somewhere else.

I look to Steve because he has coached us the past 3 years. I realize he doesn't have all of the answers, but he has never even suggested that we move. He commented that you need to have a support system if you decide to move.

So what you are saying is that while I was tempted to have sex with a young attractive women and refused temptation, it was different than my wife because my EN's were still being met.

I was away from my wife as long as she was away from me. I was the one who would get out of be at 2:00 AM to catch flights and work 12 hour days while jet-lagged. Yes, I get it we made a decision that left the door open, but someone - the person that got into bed with me each night still had to decide to make the first inappropriate comment, text message, email...

That is why I am suggesting getting Dr Harley's perspective. This is a tactic he has recommended to many people over the years and it has been very successful. I understand the loss of the support system, but the benefits from moving vastly compensates for that. Not that you have to live in the same town to get support. You don't.

I am very alarmed that you are this far out from DDay and not doing better than this. Dr Harley would tell you that recovery is not complete. You should be doing better.

How about emailing Dr Harley and telling him about your situation to get his perspective? It is free. You can write him at the radio show and he will even call you if you give your phone #. [you don't have to go on the radio show] http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

What did you think about my suggestion to sign up for the online program? Many of us here have gone through this and almost all of us have great marriages today. They assign you a trained MB coach who contacts you weekly to go through your lessons. Your progress is supervised by Dr Harley and you have access to him over on the private forum. My H and I went through this in 2007 and it really made a huge difference.

I agree - recovery is not complete. I am not sure if it is because it too so long for my wife to really work on our recovery and there was a false recovery to start, if I cannot accept what has happened or if it is because there are so many triggers in my life every day.

I will email Dr. Harley and look at the MB on-line program.

THG --

Have you and your wife done the basic questionnaires?

Do you know what her top emotional needs are?

I see that you are still struggling with the "why" question.

For example: If you come to understand that "Conversation" and "Admiration" are her two most important needs -- it might help you to understand her addiction. If you were absent, and not tending to those needs, it left the door open for OM. If he paid her a compliment, or had a really focused conversation with her -- it left her wanting more. It might have seemed innocent to her at first, but she probably started seeking him out to get more of her "fix".

We can discuss more if you know what her top ENs are.

One of the great things about the online program is that they can motivate a reluctant spouse to get on board. Or it may be a matter of you and your wife missing certain parts of the program. My H and I went through the MB course in 2007 and found out we were missing major components of the program. [the POJA] They identified that right away. Once we filled in the gaps, our marriage took off in a new direction and we have been happier in the past 5 years than we have EVER BEEN. Our MB coach helped us identify and eliminate the missing parts in our recovery. That made all the difference.

In our case, moving also made a dramatic difference. I just did not realize how my old house had a cloud of sadness until we moved. And keep in mind, the OW never set foot in my state. I just associated that house with the sadness I felt when I discovered the affair.

To Lexxy's point, the EN's that should be focused on are the intimate emotional needs because those are the ones that will make the greatest lovebank deposits the fastest. In order to create romantic love, those top 4 needs should be met 15-25 hours per week giving each other undivided attention.

Those needs are: conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.

I sent the following email to MB Radio:

Greetings Bill and Joyce,

Thank you for the work that you do to help rebuild marriages after infidelity and most importantly the proactive efforts to build strong marriages.

I found your website in mid-October 2010 after discovering my wife of 24 years had been living a secret second life for 6 months and had an affair with the owner of the company where she had worked for more than 25 years.

We have been working with Steve Harley via telephone coaching and he has helped us in the recovery process. At this point Steve is pointing to me and saying - Tom your wife has done what she needs to for recovery the rest is up to you. I am still struggling to accept what has happened and do not feel driven to meet her top emotional need - affection.

A recent book that I read suggests that obsessive thinking is a means to avoid true feelings. I have been working to stop the obsessive thoughts and the feeling that has emerged is anger. I am mad!

My father left my mother when I was 18 and I watched as he went from one 18 month to 24 month relationship after another. The flood of awesome would soon be filled with the dread of ending.

My true feeling is that recovery from infidelity is bad and divorce is worse, but we are still struggling to fully recover.

The people on MB forum believe that we should pack up and move away from the triggers that are keeping me in this state of misery. Steve hasn't ever suggested moving. He said if we ever decided to move a strong support system would be required. I have been so negatively impacted by the devastation that my performance at work has suffered and I lost my job of 25 years. Besides divorce I also witnessed my father jump from job to job and vowed not to be in his shoes. It took me 8 weeks of job searching and I had received 5 very good job offers. I declined 2 jobs that would have required us to move.

My children have just moved back to the area. One to attend law school and the second just started her first job after graduating college and playing division one athletics back east.

I feel like Austin Powers in that I have lost my MO-JO. I have gone from someone with a zest for life leading the creation of non-profits and a successful global director role for a fortune 250 company to someone who doesn't have plans for next weekend.

What are your suggestions to complete our recovery from adultery?

Sounds good!

Also, if you didn't include your phone # I would send it along so they can call you.

Yes - I actually found the EN questionnaire on-line and we completed it within a week of DDay.

Her top EN's are affection, admiration and sexual fulfillment.

She grew up in a house where her father ran a grocery store and was at work 7 days a week. She and her sister ignored each other. When we started dating they rarely spoke to each other. Mom didn't know what to do to fix it.

I was warned by my neighbor when I was dating her that "she get's around". She has admitted to sleeping with 15 - 20 guys in the 2 - 3 years before we were married so that she would feel loved.

When I left town on a business trip in late 2010, I told my wife that she either had to leave her job or we would legally separate. While I was gone her parents were at our house counseling her to keep her job. She left the job, but then needed 6 - 8 weeks before leaving because her co-worker was going to have his wisdom teeth removed.

Steve Harley really helped with the recovery, but at first she would sit on the phone with her arms crossed and not saying anything. It took her months to begrudgingly agree to donate her bike, golf clubs and other things that were part of the infidelity.

So yes to answer your question Admiration, affection and sexual fulfillment are the top 3.

The email included our telephone number

Going to chat with Dr. Harley and Joyce Harley on the MB Radio program on Monday. I am interested to hear what suggestions they have.

So what did you think of the advice you received?
Radio Clip of THG12's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3

major yankee accent!!!

Dr. Harley: "I would have suggested you move after one year. That is something I would most certainly do. I think you have to do that."

"I attribute your anger to the triggers."

"Give it your best shot while you are looking for another place to stay."

"Not moving is killing your recovery."

"I'd get as far away from him [OM] as I could."

Several reactions to Dr. Harley's advice.

1. It was apparent early on that my hometown started to feel too small and that there was a strong sense of relief every time that I traveled out of the area.

2. My wife's first reaction when we listened to the replay was silence. Hours of silence. Followed by the comment that if we had to move she would be filled with resentment having to leave her young adult children (22/24) behind.

3. A bit confused that after several telephone coaching sessions with Steve Harley, he never once suggested that we move.

So, are you going to move?

MelodyLane - Are you referring to Dr. Harley's Minnesota accent or my Wisconsin accent? I should have included a few ya-aaaal's for our friends from the south ;-)

In the "Give it your best shot while you are looking for another place to stay" category, I was traveling last week back east for work. I came to a mini-realization that one of my recovery roadblocks (besides the triggers) is that she treated our kids, pets and OG better than she treats me and that whenever there is the slightest judgment of her intentions she flips out. End of story.

We had a 1 hour drive Sunday morning and she brought our new book from Dr Harley (courtesy of MB Radio) He Wins, She Wins. She asked if she should read it out loud and I said yes, but first I wanted to discuss something. My comment was the mini-realization from my trip. I said something about how the double standard makes me feels. That while we are working out the move or no move issue it would help me if she would simply treat me the same as the kids.

Needles to say that went over like a lead-balloon. I was judging her again. Instead of focusing on what makes me happy, I was talking about what she doesn't do. Remainder of the day from hell followed by morning from hell.

I will give just one example. While working with Steve Harley a couple of years ago he suggested we pay for lie detection services, for obvious reasons. I suggested it. Wife flipped out - oh no, no way, I am not going to sit in a chair and have some stranger ask me...weeks later we hire lie detection services.

Her instant reaction is how it impacts her. Now if the kids were involved, totally different story. The response would have been something like - when can we do it.

I suggested that our recovery would go much faster and smoother if the first thought she had was "How will this impact my spouse" instead of this won't feel good for me. Again lead-balloon and she walks out the door "I am not happy".

Any suggestions for the short term?

THG, those of us who are familiar with Dr Harley's work knew that he would tell you to move since that is the obvious answer. Many of us have moved with great results. Sure, we were not thrilled at first, but all of us were extremely grateful we did because it made such an amazing difference in our marriages and quality of life.

I also have a grown son that we left behind and I talk to him on the phone, facebook or PM daily. We see each other every other month in person by visiting each other. She won't miss her kids if she talks to them every day. You don't have to live in the same town to have frequent contact with someone.

Stop making disrespectful judgements of your wife.

I get it. Moving will help me and the triggers, but I cannot just pack up a truck and move out of state. I have to get joint agreement and a new job.

The issue that concerns me is her unwillingness to consider my feelings first. Let me share another example.

The way I feel is that if I would have committed adultery and my wife was willing to work on recovery I would have taken the "buy her flowers every day - for the rest of our lives approach". I would have done whatever it took to make it up to her.

Now one of the biggest sticking points since D day, besides moving out of state, has been a close family friend who works at the company my wife used to work for. This family friend was used several times by my wife in an effort to further contact with OG after I found out. Let's just say she is a major trigger for me.

I have asked that she not have contact with this person. She reluctantly agreed and it is a major sobbing point every time her name is mentioned. I simply cannot understand why my wife cannot get the fact that if we are to recover from this tragedy she will have to give up this previous friendship. All I get is that I don't have any friends, I cannot do anything without feeling that you are looking over my shoulder...

Why is it so hard to put me first? Why can't my wife realize what it will take to recover from adultery and just do it instead of resisting, fighting back all the time?

I know this is harder because I don't feel any responsibility for the affair. None - zero. That was another mini-realization this week. I finally figures out why. It was because for years every time that I would travel for work she would lay a huge guilt trip on me about being faithful to her. She made it abundantly clear that I was to be faithful, and I was. Enter the double standard and me feeling double betrayed.

How's that?

In general I think you're going about this wrong. You need to not judge her for thinking of herself. Otherwise you'll be making love bank withdrawals all the time and will never be able to motivate her.

Marriage Builders is about satisfying both your and your spouse's Giver and Taker. So she's perfectly right to think and talk about how it will impact her. That information helps you come up with a plan to make sure everything is a positive experience for her, or as much of a positive experience as possible.

In general a man will not get anywhere happy by demanding recovery efforts from his wife. You need to stick to making your respectful complaints. Put it this way: "I can't be happy as long as we live here because it is a constant reminder of the pain of the past." And then stick to it like a broken record. If she offers comments on the drawbacks she sees to moving - listen and consider those, and repeat your perspective. You need to draw her in to considering your perspective, and you do not do that by discounting hers.

FWIW, I strongly agree with Dr. Harley that you are going to have to move.

By discounting her perspective.

Do you have the book Love Busters?

And by judging her motivations, intentions or reactions.
Disrespect does not motivate anybody, and the more disrespect you show her, the less motivated she will be.

THG, I understand to some extent because Prisca was exactly the same way.

The truth is that in marriage we don't put each other "first," at least not in the sense of putting each other before ourself. The only way we can make it work is by treating each partner equally.

Past things we have done that hurt each other are not overcome by the offender putting him or herself last. That is a form of punishment, and punishment will never recover a marriage.

Your wife will probably continue to be this way until she falls in love with you again. Prisca acted very similarly.

By all rights, yes, because she had an affair she should be doing whatever it takes to recover the marriage. However, that doesn't seem to be sufficient motivation for your wife. That form of motivation will probably only come when you have made enough love bank deposits to change her feelings about you.

In the meantime, discounting her perspective when she talks about the drawbacks she sees in following the recover plan will only make the situation worse, because it is a love bank withdrawal and will cause her to be further de-motivated.

How do I better respond to her perspective:

1. I don't want to move
2. I am unhappy that I cannot communicate with my long-time friend

- when it interferes with our recovery efforts?

I understand this must be very frustrating.
Dr Harley regularly says on his Radio Show that most wayward wives do NOT show remorse! IN fact, most blame their husbands for the affair!
In his book Surviving an Affair, Sue blames Jon for her affair with Greg...

Dr Harley addresses this by creating as much romantic love as possible, by making massive love bank deposits after the affair has permanently ended through spending 20+ hours a week of Undivided Attention time together.

Eventually, Dr Harley says the wayward wife will feel remorse for her actions.

You AREN'T responsible for her affair.

When John McCain returned to his former prison in Vietnam a few years ago, it made headlines...because he was trying to heal from his wounds...

Do you think he would have healed if he had to drive by the prison every day for the past 30 years?

Get rid of these triggers. For the sake of your own health, if she refuses to move i would seriously consider separation.
You are living in your own prison sir.

So I have to identify my list of respectful complaints and communicate them, not my need to be treated better than she does today.

She has already told me that she will be filled with resentment if we move. How do you get mutual agreement to move when she has already told you the outcome?

In negotiations, Dr Harley encourages spouses to try to understand the others point of view.
The problem is that she either doesnt understand the incredible about of pain she has caused or, or doesnt care enough about you to be willing to move so you feel better

For 1, I would tell her you understand but that you can never be happy where you are living now.

For 2, I would tell her you are sorry that she can't communicate with her friend but that you will never be able to heal if she continues to do so, that every contact she has with her friend is offensive and hurtful to you.

That is the whole point of respect. You don't tell your spouse how wrong they are to treat you the way you do, or how badly they are treating you. You simply communicate to them your feelings: "It's hurtful when you do this." "I can't be happy living like this," etc.

The point is not to educate your spouse about how thoughtless they are being. You cannot educate your spouse. It's a love buster and she will tune it out. What you CAN do is inform her about the effect her actions have on your feelings. So you don't brand it "wrong" and you don't say "I need to be treated better," you communicate specifically about what more you need without a value judgment, and you let her know what specific things she does that hurt you.

If you hold onto a need to tell her how wrong she is and she ought to be doing more for you because she has hurt you, you are not going to make it. That will not be enough to motivate her to recover your marriage. It's already been demonstrated that she will not be motivated that way.


Keep the fact that you are resentful about the status quo on the front burner. Bring it up respectfully every day: "I'm not happy here. I can't heal here."

You need to minimize the drama in what you are saying to her. Your message simply needs to be factual information about your needs and your feelings. All of the "how could you treat me this way?" part of the message needs to be eliminated.

BTW, I would definitely email back to Dr. Harley and let him know that your wife is balking at moving.

And follow his advice to the letter.

Are you taking your wife out on dates?

I emailed Dr Harley this morning and asked that he meet with us. Here is his response.

As I understand your situation, my advice was to move to avoid triggers, and your wife is unwilling to do that. Granted, a move might not solve the problem, but it has solved it for many couples that have found themselves in your situation. An affair is one of life�s greatest traumas to the betrayed spouse, and it�s not unusual for someone like yourself to feel the way you do. Recovery usually requires the unfaithful spouse to take extraordinary precautions to avoid another affair and to ease the triggers that bombard the betrayed spouse, even if it means moving. In many cases, when the unfaithful spouse is unwilling to do that, the marriage does not recover. I don�t know what I could say or do that would help that has not already been said.

Wife's email to Dr Harley:

My husband and I listened to the radio broadcast Monday evening after I got home from work. I was not surprised, yet very disappointed that the first thing Dr. Harley suggested is that we move. I'm extremely reluctant to move away from our kids, parents and family. I understand moving would eliminate the triggers directly related to the affair but I have to believe moving away is not the only answer. I hope there is a way to overcome the triggers so they are no longer a problem. If we don't deal with them here we are just running away and there will be other triggers/reminders wherever we go. I wonder if Dr. Harley has any suggestions as to how to do this. Steve has told us that by not relocating recovery will be harder and take longer but it is possible. I want so badly for my husband to be happy and I will do what I have to but moving... well I just can't imagine.

I woke up Tuesday morning, made some coffee and went straight to the computer and on to the Marriage Builders website. I reviewed the 10 Basic Concepts, made notes and then discussed them with my husband over the next 2 hours. We both realize that we need to go back to the basics. One of our biggest mistakes is continued talk about the affair. We will focus on NOW, Love Banks, Undivided Attention, which we are doing a great job at already, and the Policy of Joint Agreement.



Dr Harley's response:

I used to feel the same way you do about triggers, that it�s best to face them head on and overcome them. But having seen so many cases like those of your husband, I started to encourage couples to move away from them. From the first case on, the results were amazing. I received almost unanimous agreement that it turned out to be the answer, even from the unfaithful spouse who greatly resisted the move. Since you have done everything but move, and moving has proven to be so successful for so many that can�t seem to shake memories of the affair, it seems to be a worthy solution. One case I often reference is a couple who moved after the wife had an affair with a co-worker. Their marriage thrived to such an extent that they felt safe in moving back to their hometown so they could be closer to family and friends. But as soon as they returned, the husbands resentment about the affair spiked, and their relationship was on the rocks when I saw them last. I had encouraged them to move away again, but the husband refused while the wife was willing.

There�s not much downside to a move for both of you, compared to others I�ve counseled who have children in school and careers that are highly connected to the city where they live (like farmers who farm 4th generation farmland). So I can�t see how it would hurt to make the move and see if it helps.

Wow, despite Dr. Harley's comment that he's not sure what else can be said, I'd say he wrote a great response to your wife and he might be able to encourage her to try it.

Which makes me think of a suggestion: why don't you offer to try moving with her, with the understanding that she can always move back if she decides she doesn't like it? One of the strategies for respectful persuasion is to come up with a test, and this might be a good one.

I think that could be labeled the "Green Acres Test", if you are familiar with the vintage TV show.

When we moved, we left behind our adult daughter. Actually, when our daughter first heard of the affair, she told us "You guys need to move". That makes me think, what does your extended family think of the idea of your moving? Would they rather see you move and form a stronger marriage? I'll bet that they won't want to be the reason for your not moving if they realize it might destroy your marriage.

I have never felt that the story she finally told me is the full truth. I was told multiple versions of 'the truth' and when hard evidence was about to be revealed I would get more of the story. It has just never added up.

da-da-da-da-da The chores. da-da-da-da-da Fresh Air. You are my wife, good bye city life... Yes I remember Green Acres.

Our parents and siblings all live in the area. I would say that most would be upset if we moved, but would get over it. Our families get together regularly to celebrate holidays, birthdays...

As I said before:

If she is concealing another affair partner, by all means keep pursuing the truth. If she is concealing the fact that an affair went physical, keep pressing.

But if she just related some details differently, STOP BRINGING IT UP. You will sabotage your own recovery. You are supposed to get everything out in one session and then never bring it up again - not come back later with details that didn't add up and bring it up again and again and again.

Affair details never totally add up because an affair simply doesn't make sense.

More advice from the rest of that post:

I'm just going to repost the whole thing. I still think you should follow it.

It is not the exact details that concern me, but if she is being open and honest about the number of times they were together. That is not just the small details, but her willingness to be truly open and honest with me. She claimed they met in the office 5 - 6 times to make out and then 3 times outside of the office for sex. The A started in June/July, I found out in mid-October and she left the company in March. The facts came out in a trickle, little by little only when there was evidence (emails, texts, OG-wife) to present the facts.

She swore to me that it was over after I found out and she continued working there. It wasn't until after we met with OG-wife and she told us that she was getting all of his text messages did my wife admit that the text messages would show that she pursued him and offered to meet him in the office basement - after I found out. But, she said he didn't take her up on the offer.

She went on the pill after the 3rd event, but then says they never met again.

That is why I say it just has never added up for me. Not the small details the big ones.

It has always been a concern of mine that she has never told me the full story.

I would make it a point, then, to move someplace in America where they have cars, boats or planes so your families can get together over the holidays. You can invite them to your new digs! People can and do create new holiday traditions all across America and they are not traumatized! But people who get divorced are typically traumatized.

THG12,

That is why I say it just has never added up for me. Not the small details the big ones.

Did any details come out after the polygraph, and were the questions comprehensive to your satisfaction?

God Bless
Gamma

Do you really think it is reasonable to consider that you can recover your M by having triggers in your environment that are constant reminders of the most horrible experience of your life?

I couldn't.

This week marks 2 years in recovery for us. I had to get it through my thick skull that I HAD to leave the past in the past and NOT bring up any painful memories...actually we keep our dialogue pretty much on today and the new memories we have created.

You will never have every singe detail of the A. Does it really matter? Why are you choosing to live in the past? What GOOD does that do you today?

Haven't you learned that when you put your hand on a hot stove it burns? By doing these things, you are torturing yourself and hindering your R.

I am living proof that by creating NEW memories and love, resentment fades.

Honestly, when we started this process I was very skeptical of this. Many on this board told me it would happen if I followed the program. It was nearly impossible early on to grasp this as even an possibility. But alas, I figured...what are my other options??

Do I still have my days? Absolutely. However, I have become much more skilled at managing memories and focusing on today.

Letting GO of the past, POJA, PORH, UA time, meeting of EN's...these are the cornerstones that build our new M which I might add is getting stronger every day.

What path will you choose today?

You talk about her story not adding up. Might be the case...My question to you is..Have the Conditions that made her A possible been eliminated? That my friend is where I would put my emphasis. This is much more important than a history lesson.

Use your energy to propel you forward not backwards.

I have nothing to add to 20YearHistory's excellent advice!

That is a great question. One that I have tried to answer for the past several months. I have had the opportunity to travel in N America, Europe and Asia. I have seen sights that many just read about on the internet. With all that said, I enjoy to come home. I have always been proud to be a resident of my community. My grandfather was the first mayor of this city. My father served the church and the city. I created a non-profit and took over struggling athletic facilities from the city and made them work.

One of my visions that I spoke to my wife about was the fact that in today's society we spend more time with our neighbors than our family. Why is that? My theory was because our free time comes sporadically and when it is available we spend it with people we like that live near us. I talked about building a large shared family room that is connected to two or three family homes and living near our relatives.

The greatest joy in my life is watching my young adult children grow up. Having them pop into the house for dinner and we sit for an hour afterwards laughing and joking at the dining room table. You have to pry our children away from the table, they enjoy the time so much.

I know it is possible to get a job in a new city/state. I realize my possessions can be packed into a truck and driven to a new home. I am just looking for another answer so that I don't have to give up what I enjoy the most. I am not sure that I can do it.

The devastation that followed infidelity took its toll on me. As Dr Harley says I was a perfect candidate for infidelity, because I never thought it would happen to me. Never. I told everyone I knew that it was a perfect time to travel and expand my career because my kids were both in college. Oops. That was a mistake.

I ran on adrenaline, until depression and PTSD kicked in. I changed positions at work so that I would not have to travel and soon the level of interest that I had in my job was less and less. When 30 jobs went to China 12 months ago, mine was one of them. I spent the next 8 weeks looking for a new job. Luckily for me 5 job offers followed.

I feel that I have lost twice. Infidelity and then a 25 year career. Once I stopped obsessive thinking and started to feel. The feelings came rushing in. The red anger I felt for the OG was replaced with anger and disbelief for my wife. The stone look on my face is a dead give away of the anger that I am feeling lately. I am working to find the answer. I understand many many people find the answer by packing up and moving away. I am concerned that my wife and I will enjoy life in another state. I am not counting it out, but I am not running down to U-Haul to buy moving cartons either.

I would like to give our life in our current community 3 - 6 months to see if it will work. I want to find a way to overcome my feeling of despair. I realize it might not be possible. That the dozen reminders of the past might be too much to overcome. I get that. But, before I give up I would like to try one more time.

I had a birthday this past weekend. I was traveling for work last week. Before I left my wife and I agreed to go out on Saturday night with our kids, watch a football game, have some good food, fun and call it a b-day party. When I returned home on Friday there were no plans made. The kids had other things going on. I was mad. Didn't my wife love me? She would have made the plans if it were the kids b-day or maybe the OG's. We had a bad weekend. The anger and my feelings are finally coming to the surface.

I look to the past for answers to the future. I learn from the past. I had a false recovery and find it very difficult to truly believe what I am being told. It might be the case that my wife and I have to move 500+ miles away to remove the OG from my environment. If I continue to struggle and we give it everything we have for the next few months I will be ready to make that decision.

I have a job opportunity back east later this year. It will be a promotion and a great opportunity. What I need to do is find the desire for life that I had before. I need to have plans for next weekend and want to solve problems again. I have lost that desire. It has been better the past year, but it is still not right.

In the context of the rest of your post, you are making a big mistake. You have already tried this experiment, and it has failed. All that will change in 3-6 months is that you will be that much weaker. If you think your despair is bad now, what do you think it will be like later on?

We moved. Our situation was not as bad as yours. We were recovering. Yet it became clear to us that moving was necessary for our marriage to truly prosper. You are not going to recover if you don't get out of there. It's coming down to a choice between your marriage and your hometown. So, what is it going to be? Stop looking for reasons to procrastinate.

mrEureka is absolutely right, and I think you'd greatly benefit from his scientific outlook: you are proposing that you repeat an experiment that you've already failed, which has already damaged you and your marriage.

Ran across this quote today after I happened to read your thread:

"I know I live in Hell, but I won't move because I know all the streets."

priceless!

It is definitely not the streets, but it is the people that live on the streets that make the decision to move away from our children and families difficult.

I also know that I do not have enthusiastic agreement from my wife to move. I asked Dr. Harley if we can't come to enthusiastic agreement should we consider separating. His response was:

Not really. I�m simply saying that we usually recommend a move in your situation, and find it to be very helpful. If you don�t move, you may eventually feel better over time.

We sat and watched several of the MB videos last night. I am not sure if there was just too much drama going on when we met with Steve Harley originally or what, but it was really nice to hear the background and history behind the program directly from Dr. Harley.

I appreciate everyone insights about moving. I really do. Has anyone on this forum recovered from infidelity without moving?

"Hell" in the case of this quote might not just represent a street. You or your wife maybe aware a change of some sort needs to happen but the pain of the ending whatever that is, -- or stepping out into the unknown makes staying where you are defensible in our thoughts.

My husband has been hanging onto a RA he became addicted to and where he fell for OW. He has continued in his practice of martial arts but at a different dojo. I did everything I could to make it work so he could continue. SH even initially advised I try the RA w/husband and my husband was to make sure I enjoyed myself. But dojo was like a bar environment for a drunk in my husbands case. I did not feel safe and was triggered. I even got as far as a green belt myself. That's how hard I tried to make it work. Its been three years. I felt really terrible and betrayed all over last year when the Sensei (instuctor)hit me so hard she broke my sternum! It was almost literally like my heart was broken. So physically hurtful and emotionally hurtful for multiple reasons. I'd say my Higher Power, God, spirit, Budda and so on is trying to tell me something!!! I have to move. Not from my house. Away from dojo.

Yes. However we do not live in the same town where the A took place. It was 70 miles away.

Time to time I drive near the city in which this occurred and it makes me sick to my stomach. My IL's live there. We do not go to their home as this is a huge trigger for me.
Over time, this may change. But not now.

I cannot fathom living in the same town. I guess you and your W have to determine what you want.

I was working with a couple through my church MB ministry for whom triggers were everywhere. The A was with the BWs best friend, and all relationships and family events were entangled with hurt.

In truth they are now almost unaffected by triggers, and I must say this is because of the awesome and serious efforts made by the FWH to:
a) Apologize until the BW get ssick of hearing it
b) Making sure she knows she is loved in ways up to, above and beyond meeting ENs
c) making sure she knows how grateful he is for her grace, and to still have her in his life.

Clearly this is not THAT sustainable, because even those positive contributions still have the effect of keeping the memory of the affair alive, but I see that just a CULTURE of love and gratitude is building there which is transcending words and actions.

This humbles me, and makes me very jealous: I'd ADORE that response from my own wife, but in dozens of couples coached I have never seen such a truly repentant and loving FWS before.

I would offer that the secret to forgetting the past is for the FWS and BS to both walk in grace, humility and love. It is a beautiful thing to see.

Dr. Harley would disagree with you.

This is not MB philosophy. This is very dangerous advice. This is NOT the path to recovery.

***EDIT***

MB is a program outlined by specific steps and processes. If left up to 'good will' without the mechanics of the program it will never work. As you well know.

My wife and I are in love with each other. We respect each other. We are happy.

This didn't happen by chance. It happened because we follow the specific processes outlined by Dr. Harley. Without it, we would be divorced.

After her A I thought it would never be possible. The mechanics of the program develop the attributes you list.

Good will and intentions with reassurance alone will not recover a M after an A.

Feelings follow actions.

I would suggest that what Dr. Harley says is the secret to forgetting the past (which is actually not possible. The best you can do is for resentment to fade) is to be in-love, to have an integrated lifestyle, to take your spouses feelings into consideration with every decision, to make all your decisions where they are mutually beneficial and agreeable, to have radical honesty, to meet each other's EN's.

What really sold me on the program were these things. No other program that I looked at offered anything close to this.

Well, Bob didn't say not to follow the MB recovery plan.
To walk in love, grace and humility are virtues that Christ taught.

***EDIT*** I understand the importance of following the program but I also do not see the "danger" in turning to one's faith in such a time either. Everything is not an exactly "one size fits all" when dealing with the horrors of infidelity. It is not always black and white in every circumstance, there are gray areas. While the MB ideas have helped me tremendously, prayer has given me more comfort than anything else during my time of recovering from my WW's A.

I don't think Dr. Harley suggests there is a danger in turning to one's faith - but there is a danger in turning to certain mistaken faith ideas. As a great example, a lot of people believe that the Bible teaches that Christians ought to choose to be happy in marriage whether their spouse meets their needs or not. This is really something akin to Buddhism, not Christianity, i.e., achieve fulfillment and enlightenment through the annihilation of desire. But for a lot of people, this is what they believe their faith teaches - and there is surely a danger to recovery in following this idea.

I believe the danger 20year is highlighting here is a very common scenario: a betrayed husband expects gracious and loving behavior and remorse from his wife even when she is not in love with him. This has caused many betrayed husbands to give up on recovery. But the fact is it's not very realistic - it is not the norm. The normal situation involves a husband working hard to fill his wife's love bank and remorse and such things only appearing when she has been in love with her husband for awhile. And for some of us there are a lot of nasty, non-gracious, disrespectful darts hurled at us during that time.

Marriage Builders explains that recovery is still possible even if the wife has not learned to be gracious and remorseful, yet. And it's important that this fact not be obscured, or a lot of betrayed husbands will give up on recovery.

Please advise this poster using Marriage Builders concepts. If you wish to debate a concept, please take it to your own thread. Thank you.

THG, there are three intra-related things you have mentioned in the past couple pages, and it raises a question

1) You are attempting to quit tobacco (Bravo! Something I have to do myself!).

2) You are on an antidepressant.

3) You suggest that the antidepressant you are on is causing you to enjoy SF less.


My question; what AD are you on? Did you/have you discussed other medications, or tried other medications?


The reason I ask; Dr. Harley speaks up a lot for Buproprion aka Welbutrin.

Reason being it is an atypical antidepressant (it is a dopamine/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor vs a SSRI or tricylic) - as such, it does not typically carry the same side effects as other classes of antidepressants; weight gain, loss of sex drive. In fact, it often increases sex drive, and promotes weight loss. Additionally, clinical studies have found that some men also experience an increase in their serum testosterone levels while on the medication.

In addition to all of that, it is a fantastic aid for tobacco cessation.

Just a thought.

(PS - I haven't taken it myself, but that's because I need to get off my butt and go see my doc.... nurses are notoriously terrible at self-care).

A bit of a misunderstanding. I quit smoking 25 years ago when my son was born. I was prescribed an AD by my physician, but never filled the Rx.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I appreciate it.

[quote=markos] That is the whole point of respect. You don't tell your spouse how wrong they are to treat you the way you do, or how badly they are treating you. You simply communicate to them your feelings: "It's hurtful when you do this." "I can't be happy living like this," etc.

The point is not to educate your spouse about how thoughtless they are being. You cannot educate your spouse. It's a love buster and she will tune it out. What you CAN do is inform her about the effect her actions have on your feelings. So you don't brand it "wrong" and you don't say "I need to be treated better," you communicate specifically about what more you need without a value judgment, and you let her know what specific things she does that hurt you.

If you hold onto a need to tell her how wrong she is and she ought to be doing more for you because she has hurt you, you are not going to make it. That will not be enough to motivate her to recover your marriage. It's already been demonstrated that she will not be motivated that way.[quote]

I must have been sleeping during one of the 6:00 AM calls with SH because I missed this approach. Thank you for the insight. I have watched the MB homepage videos which really do a nice job describing selfish demands and disrespectful judgments. My mistake has been that I am a problem solver, so I would retreat into my head, solve the problem and then when I would explain why we had to do certain things I would revert back to telling the A story. Double whammy - talking about the past and disrespectful judgment.

Good stuff.

I think wrong poster, THG.

D'oh!