Dad, I'm working with HelpForMom. I've got a couple of questions for you.

Let's talk about your night last night. Watch any good movies?

Wow, I'm reading helpformom's thread and picking up on an obstacle that will make recovery impossible: angry outbursts.

If you aren't enjoying an experience, just say so, calmly and simply. There's no need to have an angry outburst to show how serious it is or how strongly you feel about it. Express your lack of enthusiasm and then pick something else to do that you are both enthusiastic about.

Let me encourage you to take this problem seriously, NOW. You shouldn't be behaving in a way that your wife perceives as an angry outburst, period. Here is what Dr. Harley has to say:


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2643787#Post2643787


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2703558#Post2703558


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2715723#Post2715723

Thanks, markos. That's the direction in which I was headed. Pay heed to markos, Dad. He knows what he's talking about.

Dad, make no mistake: I was the Queen of AO's right after D-Day. I know how a trigger can be, and I could give you a little wiggle room for mishandling a situation right after D-Day. But you, sir, are too far out from D-Day to be blowing up about something that neither of you even saw coming. Add that to the fact that you have had MB counselling with Steve and should know the hazard of AO's by now. AO's can sap a love bank faster than you can say "lovebuster."

Have you talked with your wife about how to handle similar situations in the future? I would sit down with her and discuss this, right after you apologize for your outburst. Triggers should be avoided, but, as you've learned, they can blindside you when you least expect it. Equip yourself now with the tools you need for those times so you can handle them if they come.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on what happened. I look forward to reading your post. I want to talk to you about your sleeping habits when you have a minute, as well.

And may I say: I'm hoping your slowness to respond is because today is Mom's day. I hope you're spending Mother's Day with Mom and the kids, and just can't get online because you're so busy with family stuff.

Am I right, or are you avoiding us?

Hello, all.

First, you are correct -- there can be no place for AOs in this marriage. I do have them still once in awhile..less frequent, less intense.

Most of the time I think it occurs because I'm not feeling safe or protected by HFM -- and maybe it's unfair, but part of me feels that it is her EXTRA responsibility to do so.

So, when we rent the movie -- Silver Linings Playbook -- and an affair is partly central to the storyline, I really don't have an interest in the movie from there on out...and then I feel that HFM is bothered because I'm now upset by the movie...and I'm thinking why is she NOT changing it/shutting it off? Why would she WANT to keep watching it? Why doesn't she just KNOW that I am now NOT interested in the movie???

And my mind starts to race and become unhinged and I probably fall back to bad habits rather than being more assertive or proactive in communicating the right way what's going on.

And I have reflected on this, generally, and as wrong as this is, I suspect there's some part of my head that's so traumatized by all of it, and still has so many doubts about it all, that I wonder if I've learned as some crazy defense mechanism that it's my "right"...that after all of this I'm "allowed" to get upset and angry at times because of how HFM hurt me?

I wish there were some strategies that could be suggested for HFM to help ME diffuse any AOs, only because I feel sometimes she sees it ratcheting it up before I do, and I need her help.

I can tell you and your wife are not using this program and I am very concerned about you. This is going to get worse, I promise you. Since do-it-yourself has not worked, I would strongly urge you to get professional help. You are not too traumatized. We have couples here where the BS has actual post traumatic stress disorder from false recoveries and by using this program, they have a happy, passionate marriage.

If you don't create a happy marriage, your mind will constantly go to the past and resentment will grow year after year.

So I am not going to tell you to polish off your AO's, I am going to tell you that you and your wife need a COMPLETE overhaul with professional guidance. You have been messing around with this far, far too long.

When the present is not happy, the mind wanders to the tragedies of the PAST. That is where you and your wife are now.

Okay, but Marriage Builders insists you need to eliminate these love busters. Not just diminish them in frequency and intensity - eliminate.

Did you read the quotes from Dr. Harley that I posted? Angry Outbursts are a serious enough thing that there can be no excuse made for keeping them around, if you want to have a good marriage.


Wow. I'm kind of taken aback, there. That is not the reason why you have angry outbursts.

I'd like to see you please research and learn the correct answer to the question "Why do I have angry outbursts?" You need to know this, or you might as well give up now.


Okay, this is all just disrespectful judgment. And it's the classic type: "Why doesn't my spouse know what I want? My spouse should know this; it should have been obvious."

Usually I think we men take women to task for wanting us to read their minds, but it's just as wrong when the genders are reversed.


You know Dr. Harley's rule for what to do when you feel frustrated, right?


Well, you won't eliminate angry outbursts by psychoanalyzing yourself to try to explain them. There's a defined procedure to follow. Do you know what it is?


Friend, controlling your angry outbursts is your responsibility, not your wife's. There are some great strategies to suggest to YOU on how to do this, but it's going to start with getting the locus of control for this inside of YOU, and relieving her of this unfair burden you are placing on her.

He didn't blow up because of the movie, he blew up because she minimized the affair movie and left it on the TV.. He was so upset that he left the room. How hard would it have been to simply change the channel when you see your spouse in distress? That is just basic care and compassion.

It doesn't justify an AO, but behavior like this is bound to trigger a BS.

Why didn't you turn it off? Your arm broke?

HFD, she didn't turn it off because she is not sensitive to affair movies - she has never been victimized by adultery and can't be expected to feel the same as you do.

In these situations, it is up to you to explain to her how distressful it is to see this. She has NEVER been raped and does not understand how traumatic adultery is.

Instead of having an angry outbursts, a better approach would be to tell her the movie is upsetting you and change the channel. Now she will know how you feel when this comes up in the future. But you have to explain this to her in a respectful, calm way so she can help you.

Are you listening to Dr. Harley's hour of free help every day?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

I'm asking because, as a husband, I've often found that our marriage CANNOT progress if I let myself start to live in an attitude of entitlement, and I've found that Dr. Harley's perspective seems to be the perfect antidote to that entitlement: Dr. Harley puts a larger and somewhat unfair burden on husbands to win and pursue their wives in recovery. He does this regardless of whether the husband or the wife was unfaithful. He does this because it is what works. It's not fair, but there are times when the wife will not fully start to empathize with her husband, and meet his emotional needs, and even eliminate her own disrespect and demands, until her husband has started keeping a straight course of no love busters and meeting her emotional needs.

So I am strongly urging you to take your love busters seriously, work through the plans Dr. Harley has in his workbook, and assume the burden of restoring your marriage. Listen to Dr. Harley frequently and hear what his perspective on this is. It's rough - but it works.

Markos,

You wrote:

You know Dr. Harley's rule for what to do when you feel frustrated, right?
There's a defined procedure to follow. Do you know what it is?
There are some great strategies to suggest to YOU on how to do this,

I cannot answer these questions, honestly. What does Dr. Harley advise? What are the strategies?


Prisca,

You are correct, and as I stated in an earlier post, I need to be more assertive and proactive in my communicating my feelings/needs.

Do you have the book Lovebusters and the workbook?

Melody,

We don't.

We have SAA and HNHN, but not Lovebusters. I need to get it.

You need to get a hold of your lovebusters is what you need to do.
You started with a demand (she should be the one turning it off to protect you, something you are perfectly capable of doing yourself).
Then you went to disrespectful judgements (Why can't she read my mind and just do what I want her to do?)
And then you exploded in an AO.

You are abusing your wife.

Okay, you need to take this really seriously. After 2? 3? years hanging around Marriage Builders, these are things you ought to know. Get to listening to that radio show. In fact, dig into the archives.

I am going to give you one answer: when you are frustrated, DO NOT SAY OR DO ANYTHING. Focus only on relaxing, calming down. As long as you are angry, you are not sane, and anything you are thinking of doing or saying will make your problem worse.

Look for the threads around here about anger management 101 to start finding the answers to the other questions I asked. You need to invest some effort in learning these. I am serious that if you are not going to invest this effort, you might as well give it up.

I would sign up for the online program and start actually using this program. [they will send you all the books as part of the program]

You need a coach to guide you on a weekly basis, wouldn't you agree? For some reason you and your wife haven't been able to implement this program on your own. I see absolutely no sign that you are actually using this program. You both lovebust each other, you don't meet each others emotional needs and you aren't spending your UA time together. Both you and your wife are miserable.

Recovery does not happen by accident. Having no plan is a plan to fail...as you have discovered the hard way.

When are you going to get it? It's available on amazon for download right now.

I suspect that he and his wife don't have the self discipline and vision to do this program on their own. This was one of the problems in my own marriage and I think it is the issue here too. Once I had Sandy walking us through the program step by step, it quickly fell into place. I just think some people need that kind of guidance.

HFD, listen to Mel and Marital, please. They are giving you the gold-plated advice that you and HFM should take to heart.

I'll go so far as to say that I have NOTHING to add to enhance or supplement what those two colleagues are providing - and when was the last time you read THAT from NG?

I want to add that Markos and Prisca are giving him excellent ADVICE because none of this will EVER WORK if he is having ANY angry outbursts. That has to stop NOW if this is ever going to move forward.

And I will just tell you what Dr Harley told my husband. He told him he should get anger management coaching if he couldn't control his AO's. That is because nothing will work as long as he was having AO's.

He needs to be listening to all of us.

Read:
Lovebusters
Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgements
Angry Outbursts
How to Negotiate When You Are an Emotional Person (this article has a lot of advice on what to do when you are frustrated)

Sign up for the Marriage Builders Online Program here.

Here.
Anger Management 101

Kids out until 11:00, so I set up night out followed by a DVD at home. We have our favorite Greek food and we walk it off to a frozen yogurt place. Things going great despite the overhang of the 2 year anniversary of you-know-what. We don't even come close to discussing THE subject, of course. Off to a spectacular night of UA.

We rented the same trigger you rented. Then that scene and whammo the funk sets in. However, she knows and is very quick to shut it and we watch sports.

I feel your pain as I wanted to blame her for not knowing the plot of the movie.

Should have rented Guilty Trip with Barbara Streisand, a comedy.

We don't have any kindle or anything like that, so we'll need to order the book itself.

And will look into the home course. It dawned on me that the LB questionnaire is something we never did.

I feel that what happened Saturday with my "AO" is being mischaracterized a bit, becasue I feel that I didn't "explode" or anything, just left the room to do dishes when I was uncomfortable...and I eventually returned.

However, since I have had AOs, I guess I don't have much solid ground to stand on claiming this time or that time as an AO or not.

I am feeling a bit down becasue here I thought I was leading un in recovery, but maybe this whole time I've been too damaged to lead us the right way, and I want whats best for HFM and it seems I've been doing this wrong.

It seems maybe I'm not doing as well as I should be -- I have 1 or 2 thoughhts it seems stuck in my mind that I can't drive away and maybe it's hindering the recovery.

There are also a few LBs from HFM that I feel maybe I'm not expressing clearly enough for her to eliminate either? Ill need to focus on communicating that.

I think we have the self-discipline to do it right -- if we have the right plan and what it is exactly this should be looking like.

And sometimes I feel we're underestimating the power of UA time...which is difficult to come by right now.

Thanks everyone for your input.

HFD,

You can download a kindle reader to your PC or smartphone and get the book there. I haven't used my Kindle in a long time, but instead read Kindle books on my Iphone.

Viscountess

Not the home course, but the online course. You need a coach to guide you.
This program doesn't work without the UA step. When Dr Harley was in active practice he wouldn't even counsel a couple who wouldn't commit to this step.

Just as I suspected, hfd, you aren't even doing Marriage Builders. There is a very good reason why your marriage hasn't improved. And it is because you aren't using the program. NOT because you are "too damaged."

I don't know how to emphasize to you that having no plan for recovery is a plan to fail. YOU ARE FAILING.

Mel,

I'm sorry -- that's what I meant -- the course that offers the books plus the private coach. I called it by the wrong name.

I think we do need to address the UA time -- which I hope HFM will post about later as well.

I thought we WERE following the MB principles...maybe we need to rededicate ourselves to it, and or work effort needs to be greater.

Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification.

This was also true for my H and me. We struggled for a long time, thinking we were doing the program on our own. However, once we got a coach, the improvement was almost immediate. The outside guidance made a huge difference, especially in the elimination of lovebusters. H and I highly recommend it.

AM

If you want this marriage to recover, then you need to take it seriously when your wife says you have had an angry outburst (or any other love buster). She is giving you valuable information about things you are doing that are depleting your balance in her Love Bank. These events are the reason why your marriage is failing to recover.

Incidentally, she said your angry outburst was after you returned. It wasn't just the fact that you left the room to do dishes.

Most of us who have angry outbursts don't remember what happened, after the fact. Your wife is telling you what happened. If you want to say she is "mischaracterizing" it, then that's going to be yet another love bank withdrawal, because that's you being disrespectful toward her about her memory of what happened.

You know "too damaged to lead us the right way" sounds awfully psychobabbly. And "leading us in recovery" is a really dramatic statement, too, but it doesn't say anything at all about what to actually DO for recovery. Marriage Builders is really about DOing the right things, not about having the right enthusiasm. There are people who DO the right things every day, even though they don't believe it will work, and recover their marriages. (In fact, there are people who accidentally DO those things every day with people they are not married to and start an affair. It's all about what you DO, not what you believe or how committed or enthusiastic you are.)

In a sense it is really a simple thing to find out the right things to DO and to DO them. The questions I've asked earlier in this thread have exposed some holes in your Marriage Builders knowledge: you aren't doing some of the right things, because you don't even know about those things.

It is crucial that you: 1) get educated, MB-wise, and 2) take the actions Marriage Builders stipulates for your situation.

Please don't think of your situation as a "surviving an affair" situation. Your situation is a "bad marriage in the present" situation. The steps for recovery for you, so long as your wife is taking extraordinary precautions to prevent another affair, are going to be virtually the same as an identical marriage where no affair has occurred. You need to 1) eliminate love busters, and 2) build a romantic relationship.

I have suggested several action items for you in my posts so far in this thread, and I hope you're going to act on them. And I've asked several questions you indicated you can't answer yet. Finding out the answers to those is another important action item for you, if you and your wife want your marriage to recover.

If you want your marriage to recover, I would like to see an answer to this completely NON-rhetorical question:

I have not, but will begin to do so.

I already listened to Clip #1 from the radio show from the "Anger Management 101" links.

That's a good place to start.

I strongly suggest you listen to the new show each day, plus an old show from the archives.

Dad, I'm getting caught up. Sorry I called you out yesterday and then never responded, but you've been in mighty fine hands.

The bottom line that I, and many others, are sensing, is that you and hfm have not been using Marriage Builders as your guide for recovery. Please do make use of the online course. It really is that important. You are seeing that groping your way through recovery is not working. Don't just "look into it." Action, sir. THAT is leading the way in recovery.

How is your progress, dad? Have you made a list of action items from the posts in this thread, yet? And a list of questions you need to learn answers to, also? Have you completed any of the items, found any answers, yet?

I am frankly worried that you are posting about your brother's issues and haven't even found the questions for your own, yet. Suggest your brother come here to MB and get a good lawyer.

I gotten quite capable of multiitasking ha, ha.

I've spent some time the last 2 days listening to the Anger Management 101 radio clips and digesting what Dr. Harley discusses.

All good points, and some 'actions' to incorporate, or relearn maybe the better word.

I'm trying to find readings on here that address what to do about not being able to get out/away from a situation that leads to the frustration that creates the anger as Dr. Harley describes? Or, if 'leaving' the situation is only temporary because the frustration is permanant?

Read:
How to Negotiate When You Are an Emotional Person (this article has a lot of advice on what to do when you are frustrated)

Multi-tasking is great, dad. Just don't forget to prioritize. Sometimes we let tasks that seem urgent take precedence over what is important. I've made that mistake myself plenty of times with so many things (and people) wanting my attention.

I have not had a whole lot of experience with the AO stuff but I wonder: is the built up frustration because you are avoiding conflict and not discussing things as needed prior to the outburst? I know the very few times AO's have occurred in my home over the yeras are because of this.

Prisca,

Just printed this out...will read it this evening.

Thank you.

Awesome, dad; glad to hear you are getting educated.

One suggestion: if you haven't already, apologize to helpformom for your angry outburst. AOs are never justified.

Sunny,

Thanks for your note. I would humbly say that I do "prioritize as I go" with multitasking, focusing on the most pressing issues first.

My dilemma is that I'm not sure what to do when my #1 LB is caused, no thats not right...when a contributing factor??? to MY LB (an AO) is when trying to deal with someone else's #1 LB toward me, and that LB doesn't go away...and I feel I don't have the mechanisms in place to handle it in a healthy way.

I did for the movie incident already.

We discussed all posts to both of us in detail. They were very helpful and educational.

Thank you.

Do you guys have Love Busters yet, and Dr. Harley's workbook?

Markos,

Soon -- on order.

This needs to be a research project for you. What does Dr. Harley say to do about this? What does Dr. Harley say to do to avoid having an angry outburst when your spouse love busts you. I believe the article my wife posted to you today will be very helpful for you on this, especially when combined with the information on Angry Outbursts in the latest edition of Love Busters.

Of course, in this case, your wife didn't demand anything, didn't say anything disrespectful, and didn't have an angry outburst at you. You simply wanted her to do something, and she didn't do it. Not doing something isn't a love buster - we aren't entitled to make our spouses do anything, even turning off the television. As my wife noted, you could have simply turned it off yourself if it was bothering you. You entered a negotiation situation, probably without realizing it, and definitely without having the tools you needed to negotiate.

Good for you on the prioritizing! It was a learned skill for me as I was always bad about it before.

I understand your dilemma. Of course, doing the program soup to nuts as it was intended will help with learning the correct coping mechanisms - including a THOROUGH discussion of lovebusters, etc... And a trained coach would be invaluable! I wish H and I had gone that route instead of the do-it-yourself one. We've done well with it but I think we had an advantage: being that I am in school, working on my degrees in order to become proficient at all this, I've been very dogmatic in ensuring we follow things correctly.

Markos,

How, then, to negotiate the elimination of a LB that the other person won't/can't fix?

Is that covered in the book/workbook?

Let's talk prioritization again:

first, eliminate your angry outbursts.

You can't negotiate anything if you are still having angry outbursts. Please reread the quotes I posted from Dr. Harley at the beginning of this thread.

You are not going to make it if this discussion keeps sliding off of your angry outbursts and onto your wife. You have got to take care of this beam, or no other mote is going to matter.

Also, note again that there was no love buster on your wife's part in this situation. Failure to do what would like for our spouse to do is not a love buster. So this question is a pure hypothetical that doesn't even pertain to the most recent situation.

Finally, don't expect to ask questions and get them all answered here on your thread. That is why I said this is a RESEARCH PROJECT for you. It doesn't work if you have to be spoonfed all the answers.

A suggestion on prioritizing:

If it involves your wife, it comes first.

Right now, as several people of long history with MB have noted, your marriage is on life support due to failure to follow this program. You can't just sit back and say "glad we dodged that bullet" without a plan to avoid the next bullet, because there are many of them flying.

Markos,

I appreciate your help, but with all due respect some of your notes are making me feel uncomfortable and confused.

You're statements have accused me of not making my wife a priority, of assuming I'm expecting every question of mine being answered here, and then quoting me with words that I never said.

Maybe something is getting lost in translation in my search for solutions in my posts.

hfd, I'm encouraging you to work harder. You have been here 3 years and were unable to answer some really basic questions about angry outbursts. After three years, you ought to know these things, if you'd spent that time learning and using the Marriage Builders program. You might not know how to put the information in practice, or you might not have the new habits developed yet, but you'd at least know.

You ought to be uncomfortable about that. You ought to be really uncomfortable until you have a plan to deal with this stuff, because as we have seen, it is an ongoing issue, if you want to recover your marriage.

If you don't want to recover your marriage, if you want to spend a few more years posting off and on but not learning and using the program, I'll bow out.

If you think I am hard on you - your wife's love bank is harder. Love banks are truly ruthless. They do their calculations without any conscious choice on our part. I don't think you should ask your wife to spend more years waiting for you to get this stuff - I think you should act quickly and make good on the promise of Plan A - that you will use this program to build a fantastic marriage better than it ever was before.

I get you, guy, I really do.

I guess I feel like I'm being hammered here becasue I haven't been doing this MB program in full-efficiency mode.

And I'm sorry about that, but it wasn't from any malice on my part or HFM's.

I think things got better between us, better than they ever were, with what we were using with MB, so we thought we were on the right trajectory. And so I still come here hat-in-hand for help.

My point to you earlier is that I'm trying to separate and make better items that I think are related? Or, maybe not.

Meaning, on the one hand, I am responsible for my AOs -- and I MUST correct that. And I have learned that those AOs begin with frustration.

And then over here, on the other side, is the behavior, LB that causes me to get frustrated.

And if that LB doesn't get addressed, am I to then always be in a constant cycle of communicate, separate, relaxation that Dr. Harley describes? each and every time the LB leads me to get frustrated?

This is me just "thinking out loud" -- I am not expecting to be spoonfed answers.

Thanks.

Would that be a bad thing?

That's not what happened though, right?

Prisca,

What if the LB was something along the lines of a medical/clinical issue that a loved one would not address?

You first. Would it be a bad thing for you to have to spend the rest of your life relaxing in the face frustration (including Lovebusters) as Dr. Harley says to?

Absolutely NOT!

I have tried to live my life the right way, okay, maybe too much Type A, and having the Achilles heel of a bad temper or an AO bothers me because it diminishes who I can be.

Even if the frustration is over a loved one who will not get help for a medical issue?

Just a rough patch, big guy. Steady the ship.

I think it is imperative to learn to calm oneself in the face of frustrations - to learn to "act" instead of "react." I also think it is imperative to address the frustration itself, especially if it is something that is recurring.

No, it's not just a rough patch. He has been here for 2 years without ever using MB to restore their marriage, and they've been lovebusting each other up one side and down another. There's some serious work that needs to be done here. Their marriage is on the road to becoming a crippled version of what it was pre-affair.

This requires negotiation, which cannot be done until AOs are eliminated.

The ship is leaking badly. And will sink unless it is brought in for an overhaul. This is what happens when couples don't follow the program. And it will only get WORSE over the years as resentment grows.

This is what happens when couples don't follow the program.

Good point, Mel. It appears THIS side of the ship is well sealed and getting watertight.

Is anyone spending any time working on the other side? Is anyone checking?

NG,

This ship is leaking all over the place. Both Mom and Dad lovebust and fail to follow POJA. They have been struggling for far too long.

There has been a recommendation by several posters for Mom and Dad to enroll in the online program. They BOTH need to be following MB principles. They both seem familar with the concepts but fall short in the implementation. That makes them perfect candidates for the on-line program.

So far, there has been no answer on either thread about whether this is something they will pursue.

AM

Their ship is leaking all over the place because they are not taking this program seriously. The program does not work by osmosis. He has to actually work it.

This is a defensive posture that I want you to lose, Dad. I said this once before and I will say it again: I think you and hfm admire and respect the concepts here, but are failing to do the work required to implement them into your marriage.

Try this visualization: hfm came here (good for her!) and related an experience regarding that movie last weekend. Do you know what happened then?

Sirens started blaring. People you've never even met dropped what they were doing, suited up and got to work to help you.

There is no malice here, Dad. You should know that by now. Our goal is to help you reach YOUR goal.

And yes, we have given you a few along the way, and mister, I'm not afraid to do it again. I think I have a permanent bruise on my head from whacking it against my computer desk in frustration, back in the early days. But THAT'S OKAY. That's why we're here!

You want to lead recovery? Become a Marriage Builders Master and LEAD.

You're hearing some things here that make you uncomfortable? Read them over and over. Become comfortable with those thoughts and concepts. You are getting sterling assistance here. As Markos said, do the RESEARCH.

DISTRACTION ALERT!!

NG, you know full well that Dad has been here much, much longer than hfm. You know that there is a deficit here regarding the knowledge he should have gleaned by now in reference to the issues we're addressing here. You know that Dad's desire is to lead recovery. You know that hfm has tentatively poked her toes into the water to test its warmth. She's easily spooked right now (Hi Mom! No offense intended! )


What better person to address these issues with than the one who has been here and gotten to know us over the years?

And yes, we have been over to hfm's thread, but she has chosen to not respond right now. (Come on, hfm, you can do it!)

Just because you're not in the woods doesn't mean you can't hear a tree falling.
(Does anyone get that other than me? )

MB, HFM has shown herself to be a master (mistress?) manipulator and distractor (going back to the never-sent NCL!) and the correspondents here - surprisingly - have fallen for her act.

I left the house at 2:30 today, and returned at 6:00. In that time 29 posts were added here, and 1 (as in barely more than zero) were added to hers - and that 1 was a note asking where the hell she was. So when you say, "we have been over to hfm's thread," I will take that as irony on your part!

She's using her mostly mythical presence here as a stalking horse to incent HFD to do ALL the work, make ALL the changes, and generate ALL the improvement in their union. For a supposed group of cynical and experienced posters, who LIVE by the watchword that words without actions are worth nothing, the assembly has certainly easily accepted NO ACTIONS from HFM in exchange for the credence given to her WORDS!

I watch the WS in this case be given a "pass" exempting her from demonstrated commitment, and I can only shake my head in disbelief!

Dr. Harley would expect dad to be doing the lion's share of the work in a typical case like this.

I know you don't think that's fair, NG, and I know you don't agree with Dr. Harley on this particular point, but it is what he says.

helpformom's resentment is only going to grow the longer the marriage goes on without genuinely recovering.

dad needs to do X amount of work to make the marriage work; mom needs to do Y amount of work.

Buyer: I'll do what it takes to make the marriage work.

Renter: What percent of X can I get by with? Is X bigger than Y?

The promise of Plan A is the Buyer's promise: if you'll commit to me, I'll fix all of the problems I ever caused in the marriage.

Why would you suggest that helpfordad dawdle on fulfilling this marriage promise?

Good morning.

I feel I need to wipe the slate clean today and just stake where I feel I am right now.

This may come in stops and starts as I can only post between classes or on lunch, so if a few posts come out in succession, and seem a bit disjointed, my apologies....


HFM's affair messed me up, killed me, killed something inside and I don't know if it'll come back. I want it to. I want us to be fixed and live out our lives together.

My mind doesn't always seem 'right' anymore. I doubt myself, my thinking, my rationalality after what she did. Whether it's called fear or insecurity or trauma...somethings just not the same.

Yet, our relationship, friendship has never been better...but, can I trust it?

And then I wonder if I've had this all backwards? Seems like I've been thinking that I'm waiting to heal, in order to do parts of the program right...when maybe it's the program that needs to get done to help me heal. Or maybe its HFMs actions I need to help me heal.

Sometimes it seems this program is in thirds:

1. SAA - end/survive the affair
2. HNHN - learn to meet ENs
3. LBs - eliminate LBs that drain the lovebank

And here I feel like we've not addressed #3 at all...missed 1/3 of the program. No wonder we feel like we're spinning our wheels?
Maybe, with my personality, I've allowed myself to wallow too long in this, but I do feel victimized by the whole thing. But maybe I have fueled this because of my resentment and obsessive thinking.

I am so, so resentful...about her affair, and killing her affair and actions/behaviors during & after...and maybe resentful becasue it feels like there's no acknowledgement of how hard it was to end it, and so little cooperation from the person I now must rely on to rebuild a life with. And then, how do I make that NOT matter now since it's the past? How/when do I finally let it go?

The NCL, the phone numbers, the hidden cards, getting more truths of that time in March of this year...I'm tired, worn.

I want this, I want this, but it's taken a toll and recovery takes more and more and then even more and do I have that in me? Is it possible if LBs keep flying my way, and UA time is lacking, and can I become the best person I can be by eliminating MY OWN LBs?

Ok, I'll post again later...gotta go to class.

Just add:

Not trying to be too simplistic, but from my view here, I feel the major impediments are:

1. HFD's #1 LoveBuster that needs to be ELIMINATED.

2. HFM's #1 Lovebuster

3. lack of appropriate UA time

thanks...

helpformom's resentment is only going to grow the longer the marriage goes on without genuinely recovering

That's a typo, right?

You didn't really mean to imply that the BS is encouraged to jump through hoops so the wayward spouse's (remember: the one that torpedoed her own ship?) tender sensitivities are assuaged!

So, "just compensation" and a reform of one's approach to the marital state is now the main responsibility of the BH? Even when the WW has resisted every opportunity to take action on her own? It does strike me that urging a BS to more clearly align his attitudes toward those of the WS would result to TWO WSs!
I'm torn, here, dude. or

I don't think feeding HFD's thoughts that she is wrong is going to help but rather inflame.

I'm trying to figure out HFM's #1 lovebuster and am wondering if it's her past affair.

HFM, you hit upon the principles of MB: do the actions to work towards thriving after an affair. You won't be able to wait until you feel better to work the program.

You let it go and the resentment dissipates when you create a happy, romantic marriage. You do that by following this program to the letter. Just want to remind you of something you have seen before:

here

They BOTH have to jump through hoops to effect recovery. They are BOTH supposed to be engaged in recovery. THEY ARE NOT. His resentment grows every month this goes on. Her resentment grows every month this goes on. They should both be working the program.

He will feel better because of the program. When he replaces the big, nasty festering wound with a great marriage, he will feel better.

Mel,

OK, yes, so the approach has been wrong.

I have these obsessive thoughts...and not letting go...and the resentment. Maybe I've been focused on THAT to get to a happy marriage.

Instead of focusing on creating the happy marriage that removes the obsesive thinking and resentment.

Ok, so, then, the problem is: what's hindering creating the happy, romantic marriage, correct? What's getting in the way of me being happy and letting go and not feeling traumatized any longer?

If I'm asking the right questions, then my answer would be:

1. I need to eliminate the LB that's making HFM unhappy.
2. HFM needs to eliminate the LB that makes me unhappy.
3. We need to maintain proper UA time

I think that's what I'm thinking.

It is up to the BS to present his conditions for recovery and line out just compensation. The WS shouldn't have to guess at what that is. It is the BS's job to set the plan for recovery.

You need to implement every single basic concept in this program. Not some, but ALL. If you do 1-3 and don't implement the PORH and the POJA you won't have a happy marriage.

Yes, I get that.

I thought we were accomplishing those 2 as well...but looking at it now, how effective am I really doing PORH if I'm not sharing how the LBs are hurting me? Or POJA when I might allow an AO to sabotage negotiating pleasantly or safely?

I love HFM and my family and I want to get this right. I want a happy marriage with HFM.

The Online Program will help you both very much. I had a great deal of resentment for a good while, but as we worked our way through the program, with the help of our coach and the private forum contact with Dr. Harley, and with the passing of time and the filling of love banks, the resentment has gone. Recovery was the hardest thing we have ever done. It takes a lot of guts, patience, and adopting behaviors that work in marriage.

The POJA and RORH are the foundations of a great marriage.

Eliminating all the love busters is critical. Obviously filling your love banks is crucial, but it's difficult to
fill them when the love busters immediately drain away the love units and then some.

Keep these phrases on the tip of your tongue:

I love it when you ......
It really bothers me when you......

No love busters.

We had a similar tv-watching incident a couple of years ago. I was getting more and more agitated at a show depicting a married man flirting with a single woman. I should have immediately turned it off as soon as I noticed how disturbing it was. Instead, I did almost the same as you, not following MB at all in my reaction. Thankfully, my H was kind and patient with me in that moment. He could easily have reacted to my anger but he did not. He displayed enormous love to me in this. If he had also become angry, the whole situation would have been explosive.

That one thousand dollars is the best money we ever spent. We still get to interact with Dr. Harley through the private forum when we have questions and he still monitors how we are doing, even a year out from completing the program.

Very good points. POJA is really an end result of the FGSN (Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation) process. And if you'll look at FGSN, you'll see that the first step is to set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe. i.e., eliminate the abusive love busters, because as long as the threat of those is hanging over the conversation (and the threat lasts for quite awhile after the last LB that occurs), negotiation is nigh-impossible.


I believe you are going to make it, and I believe that when you up the number of points of this program that you are getting implemented, you are going to see a lot more of the things you are looking for and longing for from HFM.

HFD, don't expect your wife to respond this way to your AOs. Her natural reaction is going to be to withdrawal - to get away from you and refuse to let you make any lovebank deposits for awhile (and rightly so).

What are her lovebusters?

Yes, exactly! I had an AO, which was a big love buster, and WRONG of me, but my H followed MB when I failed. If he had also had an AO in response to mine, things would have deteriorated very quickly.

Don't expect your wife to read your mind or interpret things the same way you do. If something is bothering you, you need to follow the PORH and just say so. And do it before it starts to make you upset.

Ok, now being completely O & H regarding my thinking, I obsess in my thinking, oh, how I obsess, I have a few obsessive thoughts about the affair, assumptions, probably but they are so ingrained in me they have become "truths" to me, and I operate from these truths as a matter of fact for my life now. And they don�t go away.

1. One truth is that I believe HFM believes she had the affair �because� of our marriage, because of me. That it happened NOT because of some flaws or traits in her personality, but solely because I was a bad husband and we had a bad marriage and it�s all my fault. There�s ownership for WHAT she did, but not WHY she did.

And I feel she harbors much resentment for many things about her life � some things out of my control � and her default position when she gets angry/sad/depressed is that only she was miserable in the marriage, that she should�ve left me, that only I left her �lonely�, that only she �hid� things wrong in our marriage, �protected� me. She�ll still say to me: �if I had left for a hotel, would that have made you a better husband?� Or �If I had confided in family/friends and told people would that have made you a better husband?� as if there�s a disconnect that SHE contributed to the environment of a bad marriage as well. That she's only responsible for the DECISION to have the affair, but not for having a part in creating a climate that made it POSSIBLE in the marriage in the first place.

The truth is I was miserable in our marriage, too. I was lonely, too, in the sense that she was not very pleasant person to be around for long periods of time�and so I chose not to be around her. There was a lot of Independent Behaviors. She did not attend to me. Everything else came before me, before us: the kids, the job, money, the house. She never considered me. For all the complaints HFM has about me or our old marriage, I have mine as well. And some of those are still present in the �new� marriage�.her LBs with the anxiety and depression and panic attacks. My needs were not being met, and I �expressed� that in unhealthy ways at times. But I never committed adultery, and that she did so destroyed me.

2. The second thought that I obsess over is that I assumed HFM always seemed more upset with how it ended. That this guy was a POS, but that under the �right� conditions, it could�ve worked�that she went about it all wrong, but wanted out but chose not to divorce and with a better person or having planned it out better it would�ve had better results for her. Like an attitude that says: �Well, society says that what I did was wrong � only because I was married. If I wasn�t�many people have multiple partners throughout their lifetime.� Like she was justified in trying something because she was unhappy.

3. The final thought is what about now and going forward with the OM? Meaning, what if there is ever attempted contact on his part? If there is a chance meeting? I don�t trust, feel safe with what HFM will do, because the �track record� for ending the damn thing was so spotty�.not going NC, not leaving the workplace, no NCL, not changing phone number, the lies about NC, holding on to directions/numbers, not �remembering� details, holding on to cards, allowing contact in 2011, etc. everyday feels like I�m on eggshells.

It was such a struggle, and took so much out of me, literally and figuratively. And my mind might be shot where all these thoughts might seem like I�ve cracked. I've allowed this thinking to remain in my mind.

These items are inherent in my thinking now and haunt me. Writing them down and seeing it looks so irrational, yet it seems so real and true to me. And I don�t want it too any longer.

Well, yes. We've pretty much all been there. Here is the plan to solve it. It's going to require a lot of work on both your parts, and you gotta lead the way.

Talking about where to affix blame is a natural inclination. But it won't solve the problem. It's not a step in the plan.

Fixing miserable marriages where husband and wife are lonely and occasionally cry themselves to sleep and don't even want to be around each other is what Marriage Builders does best. That's Dr. Harley's original insight.

Please tell me you've read How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages. I know you have. I know this is what you want, and we are all here posting because we want to help you get there. Here is the action plan to do that:

How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts
and Restore Love to Your Marriage

Step 1: The First Step in building romantic love is to make a commitment to do just that
Step 2: The Second Step is to identify habits that threaten to destroy romantic love (love busters)
Step 3: The Third Step is to create and execute a plan that eliminates the Love Busters you identified in the second step.
Step 4: When you've conquered Love Busters, you're ready for the Fourth Step to romantic love: Identifying the most important emotional needs.
Step 5: The Fifth Step to romantic love is learning to meet the needs you identified in step four.

There is no step in here where she needs to own what she did, or where she needs to come to some realization about the fact that you were unhappy to, or whatever. Those kinds of "breakthrough" psychological moment mumbo-jumbo things are not needed and are not part of the plan. You don't need to dig into causes of resentment or whatever, because when you follow the plan the resentment will go away. However, trying to dig into causes of resentment often becomes a big excuse for not following the plan.

She will go through the exact same process as you of identifying and eliminating love busters, etc., but she is not going to be motivated to put much effort into that while you sit on the fence not doing it. It is nearly impossible to get a wife motivated to do this kind of thing when the husband isn't budging. Much of the energy to prime the pump here has got to come from YOU, dad, which is why we are prodding you so hard. Did you see the Avengers where Iron Man flew into that motor and turned it over and over again until he got it restarted, taking great personal risk for great gain? That's YOU, dad. Strap on your armor and start providing energy.

Caveat: as you know, dwelling on mistakes of the past is a serious impediment to restoring romantic love. It's an enemy of good conversation, so it'll make your conversation withdraw love units instead of deposit them. It's a love buster. It's one we have identified JUST NOW, and it's now one you've got to eliminate. No more talking about the affair and who is to blame and who has resentment. No more bringing it up. From now on you talk about the present, starting with, are you following the plan, at this moment in time?

...and I wanted to add (becasue I am sincerely NOT trying to assign blame) I understand that HFM's been doing alot of things right and working hard on 'her side of the street' and I still harbor some of this thinking and it could all be me and parts of my mind that aren't right or healed and I may be my own worse enemy when it comes to this impediment.

Thank you.

You guys don't talk about the A anymore, right? I know that was a big problem before. This will only keep the obsessive thinking going, not help it.

Dwelling on the past is a very common mistake, but a destructive one. You are doing well to recognize that this is what you are doing. Recognizing it as a problem is the first step to stopping it.

Now you must stop it. Don't let yourself think about her affair any longer. Eliminate any triggers quickly and calmly. Stop posting about her affair. And certainly never talk about the affair with her again.

Deal with the present. By creating a romantic marriage here in the present, the resentment over the past will fade away.

You believe she believes...DJ
She needs to agree she had the affair because of a personality flaw...DJ
Why she did it: we are all wired for it.


Those questions are harsh, I agree, but she is giving you some complaints you can work on. What problems did she hide? Why did she hide them? Why did she feel lonely? It seems she's thinking she's the only one that's lonely (another DJ) but she can only tell you how she feels.
.

Okay, try to safely discuss the ongoing IB.
Are you saying that her anxiety and depression themselves are Lovebusters or that she commits Lovebusters when she is depressed or anxious?


So, her sin is greater than any and all of yours by your estimation. Now what? Fish or cut bait. There's real potential in your marriage; it may be a good thing for you two to get the coaching.

The WS shouldn't have to guess at what that is. It is the BS's job to set the plan for recovery.

There was NEVER any "guessing" needed in this case. N-E-V-E-R !!

Shall we start with the (never sent) NCL, continue with the (looooong delayed) job change, and finish with the (still ongoing) fixation on HER hurts and discomfitures at the expense of attending to the emotional wounds she inflicted on HFD! (I'll charitably end the list with the top three!)

HFD has been here about thirty months. Almost every step has been delayed, drawn-out, and/or (sadly) half-done, so he has no claim to MB stardom. HFM, by contrast, in that same thirty months, has not had the opportunity for a misstep, as she has never, and has still not, put her foot to the ground with this program, either in person, or through his solicitation by proxy. And I am saying that in full recognition of her recent six(?) note pro-forma participation. (As a point of comparison, folks here hammer Kiss for his tepid MB participation, yet in the eighteen months since his affair, he has contributed almost 350 entries!)

I am sorry they came across as DJs; that was not my intent...you know, they are really my fears or insecurities more than anything else, I think.

Yes, I would say 'yes' to both that her anxiety and depression themselves are Lovebusters, and that she commits Lovebusters when she is depressed or anxious.

You need to quit apologizing to other posters here. The point of this dialogue is to help you start following the program, not for you to defend yourself or apologize for your failings.

Okay, so I asked these questions yesterday, and I STILL have not seen an answer to them.

Have you made a list of action items from the posts in this thread, yet? If so, please post the list. If not, please go reread the thread from the beginning and make the list.

Have you made a list of questions you need to learn answers to? questions like, "Well, you won't eliminate angry outbursts by psychoanalyzing yourself to try to explain them. There's a defined procedure to follow. Do you know what it is?"

Posting on the Marriage Builders forum is not the same as following the Marriage Builders program. Let's see some action, dad. We can't seem to get you focused on what you need to do next.

Do you know what the number one cause for depression in women is?
Their relationship with their husband.

You can fix this.

I asked this question and I haven't seen an answer, yet. It wasn't a rhetorical question. It's designed to help you discover a misunderstanding in your thinking. You don't appear to have noticed the question, so as near as I can tell, you missed out on the chance to correct this misunderstanding.

Here's the relevant text to help you formulate the answer:

I bolded the key line you need to see.

Let me reword the question again, for clarity: was it a love buster, according to Marriage Builders, for your wife to not turn off the TV the other night?

Which suggests another Marriage Builders concept helpfordad needs to research: What is Dr. Harley's suggested FIRST solution that a couple should attempt when the wife is depressed? Are you willing to look for this one, dad?

By the way, a great way to get answers to some of these may be to write Dr. Harley himself. I learned a good many of these things from listening to the radio show, day in and day out.

Did you read this?

[size:8pt][/size]
HFD is not working the program and has not laid it out for his wife. When that happens, things will begin to change. He should have been working the basic concepts with her about 30 months ago.

I know first hand what LBs anxiety and depression can cause in a marriage. I WAS that person and I know how it not only affected my husband, but my children. So, I totally understand this. And yes, part of the reason for my depression was the loneliness I felt in my marriage. BUT... it was also clinical in that it had an internal cause as well. There are two kinds of depression, clinical and circumstantial. Part of my feeling lonely in the marriage was my depressed behaviors led to my husband not really wanting to be around me... So, it's like the chicken and egg conundrum. If HFM has clinical depression, she needs to seek treatment - which I recommended on her thread.

I totally agree that the only way to experience romantic love (and thus lose the resentment for the past mistakes) is to do the program right. I also know, again - first hand - that HFM really needs to take responsibility for her anxiety & depression - taking action to resolve it.

The cause of my anxiety and depression was my hormones. I go to a doctor to keep myself regulated and am on a special diet now - so I don't have to take ADs any longer. That being said, there are certain times I am still prone to depression throughout the month. I have to be very aware of it - as does H - so we can work together to make sure he meets my needs and that I don't LB him in that time. Because we work on this as a team now - it has made us closer.

So - once again, both parties need to do their part when it comes to the anxiety and depression issue. The first step though has got to be HFM taking action to determine causes and possible fixes for it, if there is a clinical component.

NG, I get your frustration on this because my mind goes there as well. It goes back to the premise of the man - regardless of who had the affair - being the one to be the workhorse.

I will admit that this is something that I wonder about and need to study up on. I get that it is due our innate natures as men vs women but I'd like to know more, especially as a dual psych/communications major!

Dad,

Just a note of encouragement:

I was once like you in that my mind was constantly rattled with questions of whether or not my FWH really got what he did - and why. That list of things you mentioned? I had those same concerns. In the back of my mind I just KNEW my H thought it was still all my "fault" that he strayed... I worried about whether or not he would check up on OW..... or feel the desire to... or still fantasized about "what couldn't be...."

I can tell you that once we built that romantic love and followed all aspects of MB, that dissipated. Was it magically gone overnight? No... but it slowly left my mind and is now gone unless there is an extreme trigger which has been very rare.

They didn't come across as DJ's, they are DJs. Like Markos said, these questions we ask aren't rhetorical. They are to help you get on the ball instead of getting so distracted that you miss the ball. Dr. Harley says that when a man tries to win his wife over it's usually much more successful than the reverse.

Although her depression and anxiety may make you feel frustrated, sad, mad, and hopeless, as I understand it it still isn't a lovebuster. Be gentle and safe in trying to understand what's so negatively affecting her, and work on what you can do to fix it (not change her mind or feelings about it) and you may just find she will turn a smile your way.

Her affair doesn't change the things you need to work on.
You can't demand for her to be cheery.

One's behaviors while depressed and/or anxious can certainly be LBs... believe me! I've committed them. But the depression/anxiety aren't LBs in and of themselves, no.

I thought lovebusters are habits that cause your spouse to be unhappy?

So what is it, then, when a spouse exhibits behaviors that withdraw love units, that makes the spouse unhappy, even though the spouse has respectfully made a thoughtful request? and it goes ignored or unresolved? (severe depression or alcoholism or something like that?).

I never demanded she be cheery or smile. SHE recognizes the anxiety/depression she's struggled with...I have, HFM has for longer in her life, for 20 years, 'coped' with the behaviors that emerge from it.

And I am not in a medical or clinical position to 'fix it'; I have spent years asking "would you consider discussing this with your physician" or "what can we do to come up with solutions so you're not anxious or panicked or feeling overwhelmed?".

Instead, I feel that we've just tried to "deal with it" for years.

As I bolded in my post to you, according to Dr. Harley, NOT doing something is not a love buster.

Example: Dr. Harley has an 8 part series about a wife who wanted her husband to take out the garbage. He did not talk to the husband and explain that not taking out the garbage was a love buster. Because it's not. The problem was the wife felt a sense of entitlement, which led her to be demanding and disrespectful toward her husband to try to get him to do what she wanted.

If she had called not taking out the garbage a "love buster," that would not have been accurate in Dr. Harley's terms, because husband and wife are ALWAYS entitled to choose to NOT do something they are not enthusiastic about. Telling her husband he was "love busting" her by not taking out the garbage would have actually been a disrespectful judgment if the wife had done it.

After about 8 emails back and forth Dr. Harley finally persuaded the wife to try negotiating with her husband, offering him an incentive to take out the garbage. This worked! Once she quit acting like she was entitled to her husband taking out the garbage, once she quit disrespectfully grumbling about how he SHOULD do this, he was SUPPOSED to do this, it was EASY for him, if he ONLY understood he would do what she wanted, etc., -- once all of that nasty disrespectful entitlement was gone from her thinking and gone from her speech and she treated her husband with respect, like a free person who was entitled to decide if he wanted to take out the garbage or not -- once this happened, she was able to easily incent him, and she got what she wanted, and the happiness of both husband and wife increased. Win-win.

Your wife did not engage in a love buster by not turning off the television. There is no way Dr. Harley's term "love buster" applies to this. Dr. Harley specifically rules it out.

So before you go much further down this road, I'd like to know if you intend to continue to disagree with Dr. Harley on this, or not? You were not entitled to have your wife turn off the television. She was present with you for a very upsetting experience, but she was not the cause of the experience, and she does not deserve to be ABUSIVELY blamed for it. When you call it a "love buster," you are being disrespectful and abusive to her. So this is a very important point, and I don't believe you guys can progress much further if you continue to feel entitled to action on your wife's part. Entitlement will translate into abuse and control, and will wreck the happy marriage that both of you want.

Please read this wonderful post from Dr. Harley to me. I think of this post especially in reference to your sentence "even though the spouse has respectfully made a thoughtful request." A thoughtful request is a request where declining carries NO penalty. Otherwise, it isn't thoughtful.


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2405440#Post2405440

(I'd say signing up for Dr. Harley's online program is worth it just to read that post over and over again!)


Those are doing something, which is the opposite of not doing something. Your wife didn't exhibit a behavior - she exhibited a lack of behavior.
Drinking alcohol = doing something = love buster if your spouse is not enthusiastic
Spending money = doing something = love buster if your spouse is not enthusiastic
Not turning off the television = not doing something = unmet emotional need, and you will need to negotiate a way to get your need met. (And in the case of simple household chores, Dr. Harley frequently suggests doing it yourself or hiring someone to do it, because it's not an intimate emotional need. I'd say that applied here.)
Depression == illness == "in sickness and in health" == not doing something == not a love buster


Quit "dealing with it," then. Marriage Builders has a strong solution for wife depression. I've strongly encouraged you to research it in my above posts. My wife says she's actually posted it! Are you going to continue the pattern of hanging around but not getting the education and doing the work? Or is it time to start digging in and finding the answers to your problems?

I know for a fact that I've frequently posted radio links that answer the question "What does Dr. Harley recommend couples do when the wife is depressed?" I know I've made posts about this in the last few months. It would not take a lot of effort on your part to find it.

I get the impression that you are reading our posts, processing them and responding, and then moving on, never to return to a post once you've dealt with it. I think that's a bad idea -- take notes! Start a list of action items and questions to research. I've asked several times if you've started this list, and I have yet to see an answer. I get the impression you think my questions are rhetorical. I get the impression you are more concerned with defending yourself and proving that you've made a good faith effort than you are about learning how to make your effort more effective.

So, away with telling us what you've done for years about depression, and on to the only question on that subject that matters: do you know yet what Dr. Harley recommends couples do when the wife is depressed? If you don't even know the Marriage Builders recommendation for this, how is it going to help you to blog about the subject on the Marriage Builders message board?

What do we have to do to get you moving, to get you learning and following the program instead of posting your own personal experiences?

...

You want to be the source of your spouses happiness, and avoid being the source of your spouses unhappiness.

Emotional outbursts are an expression of your unhappiness, yes... but a spouse who is empathetic is going to be unhappy with you.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=9&sublink=590




The emotional outbursts bother HFD, and make pleasant conversation and negotiation difficult, if not impossible.


(And Dad has his own outbursts to account for, as well).


The key is focusing on being calm and pleasant.

Here's a suggested search that will yield an answer quickly:

Click Search
Click Advanced
Click All Forums if it is not selected on the left
Under Display Name Search, enter markos (since I mentioned I'd posted about it)
Under Keyword Search Terms, enter depression. To narrow down to radio programs, enter:
+depression +radio_program
Set Date Range to Newer than 5 Years
Click Submit

I tried this and found a bunch of radio links!

dad, if you had been listening to the radio show frequently for the last three years, you'd know these things. If you'd been in the trenches posting and helping and reading the posts of people who are trying to teach Dr. Harley's program, you'd know these things.

I am not saying things like this to try to make you mad or to shame you. I am hoping you will realize just how much better things could be if you'd spent this time learning and using the Marriage Builders program! I am hoping you will change from being the kind of person who makes "it's hopeless, I've been trying to talk to her about depression for years" posts and starts making "Now I know what Dr. Harley says to do about this and I've tried it and these are the results; does anyone have some more information to help us?" type posts. And "Now I know what Dr. Harley says to do and I tried it, and it worked! I can't believe how much better things are! We are so amazingly happy and had no idea it could be like this! We were going about it all wrong! I hope everybody else tries this because it really works!" posts.

Yes, I was just trying to separate behavior that's a lovebuster from a "condition" or emotions that may have been mislabeled as a lovebuster. Depression isn't a lovebuster, but SD's, DJ's, etc. are.
Anyway, he's got the lead on how to help his wife's depression. Even if it's caused by past problems, he can still alleviate it. It's right hard to be depressed when you're in love.

Between my fulltime job, 2 children, and assisting my wife with grad school, plus the other million daily responsibilites of life, I have just enough time to read and post here.

I will make time to read LB book.

I will make time to listen to the radio program.

Lovebusters are habits that cause your spouse to be unhappy is taken from one of the articles here. I thought that's how it was defined in the article.

I read the article about depression. Dr. Harley states: "my first item of business is to treat the depression, not the marital problems. The treatment, however, is much simpler than most people think. Anti-depressant medication is the ticket....After (s)he is treated medically for depression, focus your attention on the way you treat each other in the here and now."

HFM chooses not to pursue the initial treatment that Dr. Harley advocates.

QFT

Remember what I said about the NUMBER ONE REASON a woman is depressed?

It's her relationship with her husband.

Fix the relationship, HFD, and the odds are in your favor that YOU will fix her depression. Plus, you'll get the credit for it.

Between Markos' fulltime job, 6 KIDS, assisting and romancing his wife, and the other million daily responsibilities of life, he still found the time to do what it took for us to recover.

He's not telling you to do anything that he didn't do himself.

So, now love is the cure for anxiety and depression?

The relationship is not connected to every thing that makes her anxious or depressed.

She likes where we are, and hopefully where we're headed, much better than where we were in our marriage.

And there's still anxiety. And there's still depression....about work, family, money, etc.

In the article about depression. Dr. Harley states: "my first item of business is to treat the depression, not the marital problems. The treatment, however, is much simpler than most people think. Anti-depressant medication is the ticket....After (s)he is treated medically for depression, focus your attention on the way you treat each other in the here and now."

I am NOT trying to drug her up...and if she does not follow Dr. Harley's initial treatment recommendation for treatment, the solution is?

This is starting to veer off the mark.

By himself, or were you a willing participant with the program from the get-go?

Okay, now you are getting somewhere and researching.

But this is actually the answer for a depressed husband.

The first line for a depressed wife is to fix her relationship with her husband! Specifically, the elimination of love busters, and the spending of 15-30 hours together a week meeting the intimate emotional needs.

Prisca has been in and out of depression MANY times in our marriage. (On the order of 30 times, not just 3-4.) It always vanishes when the relationship problems (my love busters, or lack of genuine quality UA time together, or a conflict we haven't negotiated a solution to, yet) clears up.

Prisca has never been on antidepressant medication. I have, though. Taking it was a bit like Iron Man putting on his armor before jumping into that engine and just about killing himself trying to get it started by priming the pump. Kept me sane, kept me going in the face of love busters that weren't going to stop until I made a LOT of things better.

Markos is the foremost expert on the board for having a reluctant wife.

I hated MB when we first started. I hated POJA and PORA.

HFD, I had my EA AFTER we started MB. I was also very depressed.

I was not a willing participant in the least. Markos Plan A'd me for a couple years before I showed any interest. And we probably would've recovered faster if he had taken care of his lovebusters sooner.

Is seeking medical help or therapy or counseling a "conflict" that can be negotiated?

If a spouse is an alcoholic, and their behaviors due to the alcohol are destroying the marriage, is participating in AA something that is negotiated? Does that fall under POJA? And if the alcoholic spouse will not engage in negotiating, no matter how safe or pleasant the thoughtful request or non-demanding conversation or expression of emotional needs is?

Dr. Harley talks about this on his radio show. He says the number one reason a woman is depressed is because of her relationship with her husband. Fix the relationship, fix the depression.

The answer to your wife's depression is most likely: eliminate your lovebusters, meet her EN, and 15-30 hours UA.

You will find that Dr. Harley often gives different advice depending on the gender of who he is talking to.

Is your wife an alcoholic?

Well, there you go. You can't survive if you're so busy you can't follow the Policy of Undivided Attention. When he was in active practice, Dr. Harley would refuse to counsel couples who said they would not or could not find this much time. He said it was a waste of their time and his.

You are definitely underestimating UA if you think it's optional! Or if you don't think that it's a CRISIS that the time is hard to come by.

As for the power of UA time - what do you think lifts most depression in wives?


When? Have you done this, yet?

You need to reread this thread over and over again; there is important information here for you. There are recommendations that you need to review every day until you take them. Some examples:




Man, here's a great one!


Goodness yes:

I understand I must eliminate any AOs. I don't know if HFM would agree, but I think I'm an okay person for the most part with the AO being my main failing.

We probably do not get 15-20 hours of UA time a week, most likely due to the demands of grad school for HFM.

I don't recall HFM stating that I'm NOT meeting her ENs; she has not expressed this as a concern or complaint.

Even when things are going well between us, HFM can still be anxious/depressed about her job...or our children...or finances, etc.

Prisca,

No, she is not.

I didn't realize this was in any doubt. WE know that your wife's emotional needs are not being met. Are you in disagreement about this?

The top 4 needs (and some others): conversation, rec companionship, affection, SF. HFM often states that yes, I'm meeting her needs...well, outside of not "spooning" her at night at bedtime once in awhile. (actually, I do almost all nights -- but, I toss and turn during sleep and sometimes don't stay "spooned" throughout the night. We've been "negotiating " that...sorry if that's TMI).

You are not having UA. So, no, you are NOT meeting them.

And, conversely, mine are not as well, so long as we aren't committing to the 15+ hours a week?

Grad school takes up ALOT of time...but her earning an advanced degree is a good thing!

Time to have a talk about refocusing on getting that UA time from somewhere in our schedule...

Not in adequate quantities, though. We know this because you indicated you guys aren't scheduling and getting the 15 hours of time for these needs. (What luck -- her top four needs are the four needs that should be met during UA! ) We can also tell just from the sheer number of problems still extant here. If you were meeting these needs, in adequate quantities, a lot of VERY good things would start happening that aren't happening. Her behavior would be different, and would be making you a LOT happier!

Yes, it is.

You realize that Dr. Harley and Joyce religiously got their fifteen hours together per week while Dr. Harley was in grad school, right?

Do you have feelings of romantic love toward your wife?
Dr. Harley says that a typical man can have his needs met in less time -- but your wife NEEDS at least 15 hours. He also says that a man will typically be much happier if he is getting those hours, even though he can get by with less.

Um, yes, but not to the level I want to.

You make a great point -- about needing less time. For me, however, it's the feeling of being LB'd with the anxiety/depression and the way I feel it hinders POJA or healthy negotiation and also lacking some UA time.

Ok, this may be nerdy, but when we work together on HFMs grad work, whether a research paper, or reading, or driving her to class...we enjoy that time together. It's a kind of UA time for us, really. But it does require a large time commitment.

The EN that I miss is the rec. companionship. We like to walk together, see movies, etc. but when the work piles up, that seems to be the first thing to go...and I wish we had more time for incorporating some adult social time or volunteering or a regular activity into our time.

I went through quite a bit to have my depression issues properly diagnosed. I kept a daily log to chart my moods and any events that went along with them - as well as what time of the month it was.

ADs helped me greatly - but I had an adverse reaction, no matter which I tried - in the libido dept. So, I did not want that as a long term solution. I went to a "wellness" doctor who did all kinds of lab work to figure out what my hormones were doing.

H and I get our 15-20 (if not more) UA hours in. He and I are completely in love. Yet... at certain times, I still am prone to depression. He knows much better how to help me through it than he used to. But - I must take responsibility as well. I now know myself well enough to go through certain steps that help alleviate the anxiety and depression I'm feeling - and I know specifically how to ask H for what I need. However, it always starts with me talking myself off the ledge first. I have various coping mechanisms for this. They include, prayer...reading over romantic notes/cards/emails/texts H has sent me, and a list of questions and answers I go through to put things in perspective.

Just a few months ago I was so depressed I cried for almost 2 hours straight and that was after H and I had spent a wonderful weekend together. When I realized I hadn't taken my vitamins and hormonal supplements all weekend - I immediately knew my feelings could not be trusted!

Sometimes there are other reasons than the state of the marriage that a woman is depressed.

I do not know - nor does anyone else here - if HFM is only depressed because of the state of the marriage.People can assume that because it is the #1 reason for women and depression - but it is not the only reason. Clinical depression DOES exist.

Yet - until the marriage is fixed - and you are getting in your 15-20 UA hours and avoiding LB's, etc... it cannot be ruled out that the state of the marriage is a contributor if not the cause.

I would encourage you and hfm to explore all avenues - especially since this is something that has been going on for years.

With me being in school some of our time is spent on my studies as well. Mr. Sunny had a great time going to Astronomy events with me as well as a few outings we did for my Geology class. We're both kinda nerdy too, lol. We felt it fit the bill for RC. Besides, staring at the stars and seeing craters on the moon in a high-powered telescope together is pretty darn awesome and quite romantic!

We also found a sense of togetherness by working on a committee together for one of our son's activities this past year. I considered that more FC than RC but the fact that we did something like that together was really good for us. In the past kids' stuff had always been one or the other of us. Now the whole organization sees us as this "power couple" who can get anything done and they're right. We discovered we really do make quite a team when we're both focused together on one goal!

When life is busy you have to get creative with UA time but it can be done. It MUST be done.

Thank you, Sunny!

It's been suggested here that the online course could be a great help to you. Have you and your wife discussed it?

Yes, we have.

It seems that she would prefer to use the forum for awhile before doing the online course because she just got on and started posting here and wants to give this a chance to work together, get feedback from here together.

We are getting the LoveBusters book/workbook; already have SAA and HNHN.

HFM stated she's already receiving important and necessary feedback for her, for us, to further improve the marriage.

It seems that she would prefer to use the forum for awhile....

There seems to be little doubt that she is "using" the forum, my friend.

I will leave it at that for now.

But the forum is not going to save your marriage. You guys have already shown you can't do this on your own, HFD. There is no shame in that. But there is shame in not getting help when you need it.

Please show her this post. helpformom, please get signed up on the online course and ratchet this up. Chatting on a forum is not a replacement for the necessary hard work it takes to save your marriage.

None of us saved our marriages that way and neither will you. No one saves their marriage chatting here. You and your husband have already tried and failed to do this on your own. Time to try something else!

All we can do is direct you to use the program and guide you while you are doing it. But the forum is not a replacement!!

HFM does read my thread as well, but shouldn't some of this feedback be addressed on her thread directly?

...shouldn't some of this feedback be addressed on her thread directly?

Careful, HFD, or you'll start sounding like NG!

Much of the advice/counsel SHOULD be addressed to HFM, but will NOT be, as long as you are willing to respond, and she is not!

(BTW: After I logged off yesterday, and logged on today: forty-nine additions here; one - as in almost zero, again - over there!)

Absolutely. Struggling this long is a huge indication for the online program.

AM

I will not name names, but we have THREE recent marriages in trouble who tried to use the forum as a substitute for the program. They have been here OVER NINE YEARS and their marriages are still in trouble!!! There has been no improvement in their marriages in all the years they have been here.

Case #1: after 12 years of doing nothing other than chat on the forum, wife ended up having another affair - IN THEIR HOME!!

Case #2: husband on the verge of divorce - been on the forum for TEN YEARS posting and chatting. Finally started counesling with Dr Chalmers and things are dramatically improved

Case #3: wife ready to divorce husband. Never implemented program in the 9 years she has been here. Lots of posts chatting on the forum though!!

I don't know of anyone who saved their marriage chatting on forum. Some are disclined enough to execute the program at home - MOST ARE NOT!! You already know you are not.

So, either get coaching or prepare for your marriage to be like this for the future until you can't stand it anymore.

I agree with this. What do you do when only one party is responding?

HFD;

We've just started the online program. While there isn't new INFORMATION, Dr. Harley and our coach, Sandy, have prioritized a program specific to us, which identified the areas of concern for us, and then emphasized the work we need to do in those areas. We now can tailor the plan to suit us. And, we get direct email access to ask Dr. Harley anything.

We have found that the coaching means we two can operate as a team, helping us to avoid DJ's or the feeling that one of us is pulling the other along.

Given this level of support, $1000 is a BARGAIN.

And you will be maximizing the RESULTS for the TIME you invest, so if time/scheduling is a concern, this is the most efficient way.

Why WOULDN'T you try the online program?

I will send the same message to HFM.

I am NOT disinclined to try the online program.

However, just bear with me because I HAVE been here awhile and read and discussed and listened.

What if I felt, just felt or thought that what's going on here is this: we're on our way to building the best, romantic relationship we can, but there are some impediments, and what's getting in the way of that is simply this:

1. diminished UA time (which could be a conflict until the grad program is complete) which is hindering meeting ENs

2. the presence of LoveBusters that need to be eliminated because they are hindering recovery (HFD: AOs; HFM: LBs which eminate from depression/anxiety/panic??? {I'm not even sure which type}).


If these things are not being done to their fullest?best....then no wonder we are still wallowing in the past and feeling that we're not moving forward to toward the marriage we both want.

I am NOT looking for an easier way out; just being aware of the basics of the program, wonder what if this is really the "it" going on?

thanks for letting me put this out there.

I will address this from the point of view of probably one of only few couples who have been successful at the do-it-yourself approach. Mainly because I feel all the stars really have to be perfectly aligned in order to DIY and do it right.

1. I don't think it would have been possible if I had not already gotten help for my depression.

2. When we were doing all the hard work at the beginning, we put in way more than 20 hours a week of UA time.

3. We don't have young kids at home. Our oldest is away at college and our boys were/are old enough to be mostly independent. Because things were less hectic for us than homes with young kids - we were more disciplined with assignments and such.

4. We both had an accountability mindset. We were both eager to please each other and both very much looking inward for change and not pointing fingers or trying to make excuses. Neither of us felt entitled or had the woe-is-me stuff going on. I put my big girl panties on right along side of him manning-up.

5. Being a psychology/communications major myself - I kept us on the right track because I could see the "whys" of why all this works the way it does. Too many couples find it way too easy to slough off parts that they don't like or aren't natural to them. And yes...I did lead in this way - but H was right there with me, agreeable to it all.

6. We were highly motivated when we started because we had actually separated after my discovering the A. Being that you guys have been floundering for several years, I would think it would be very hard to have or find the kind of motivation it takes to DIY without a professional involved.

Even with all of that, I still believe that we would have had an easier road if we had done the online program.

ETA: I would think it would be MUCH harder to DIY after you've already gotten entrenched in bad habits...

Believe me, I'm no expert on POJA. Just ask the vets here... But, I often find myself in the same place. A scene in a movie or tv show comes on and theres cheating going on. Now, as a guy, I normally control the remote so I typically will just change it until that scene is gone. If the topic is central to the show, I tell WW that the cheating is starting to trigger me and we normally agree to change it. If she doesn't want to, then I just get up and leave the room. We can discuss it after the show is over.

My AO's were normally about control issues. Once I learned that I can only control my behavior, I started removing myself from these uncomfortable situations.

One thing I see in your response is an expectation that she "should just get it". STOP THAT!!! She doesn't get it, so what do you do next? How can you solve it rather than try to control what "she gets". Yes, its frustrating when they don't get it. Deal with your anger and frustration and find a way to communicate better.

Listen to me... The pot calling the kettle black and all. Good luck

Action items:
1. Add disrespectful judgments to your list of love busters you need to overcome, because you just committed one there by trying to analyze the cause of your wife's love busters. Psychoanalyzing your spouse is disrespectful.
2. Read Love Busters and find out what love busters actually are and fill out the questionnaire so you can list your wife's actual love busters instead of "depression," which is not a love buster.

Trying to find the cause of a loved one's depression is a LoveBuster?

__________________________________

What would help would be if you were to find out what's causing her unhappiness and do something about it if it turns out to have something to do with your behavior.

Heh, but really, all this is a distraction from DOING.

If she isn't in agreement with the online accountability program, maybe you could make an appointment with Steve Harley so you can get some direction on how to increase her interest in working with you on your marriage.

Only one spouse being on board is typical at first. If you are the husband, Dr. Harley says you typically have a great chance of bringing your wife around. If you are the wife, you may have to take more drastic measures to get your husband's participation.

I find it difficult to discuss how I feel because, in the end, I think that I am throwing HFD under the bus. I have discussed my thoughts about this with only a counselor, until now. In general, the things that I am feeling about HFD are not positive and sometimes I feel there is a negative number in the love bank and when he begins to make deposits, they are short lived. Every day it is something else from him that makes me take pause and wonder is it time to exit for both of our mental states.

Example, just since I got home from work today - Two of my old colleagues called from work and left a message on my cell phone voice mail. I didn't hear the phone ring. HFD heard the phone and told me before I had a chance to pick up. I played the message on speaker phone so HFD could hear it - total transparency. The contents were about how I am their sister friend... [censored] - so I told HFD how much the message hurts me. I said you have gone through your thing and I have gone through my thing. He gave me what I felt was a dirty look and proceeded to tell me how can I equate what I have gone through with what he has gone through. I never tried to equate the two. I never said that. Those words never came out of my mouth. Again, an AO and DJ on his part. I was feeling like these colleagues know and saw me every day. They didn't have the same experience with HFD. I mean I look back on this time and I completely deteriorated. These "sister friends" as they like to call themselves never said boo to me, never asked me if I was ok or asked if they could help me in any way. This stuff still hurts me. I told HFD that I would like to change my cell phone number again because the phone calls and messages need to stop.

Every day I am prepared for him to start something negative with me. He says on the forum that his AO are diminishing, but what good is it if they occur once a day and not three times a day. He appears to have no control over them or that's what he would like to believe.

I have been anxious/depressed for years, this is true. He is and has been a major cause of it. I find his behavior quite upsetting. He has a way of making me feel like I am not worthy, like my thinking is wrong...

To the forum, I am a 42 year old woman and he was my only partner until 2010. This was not the path that I thought MY LIFE would take. I find him and his behavior toward me abusive, so much so that I isolated myself from the rest of the world for years. Even now I have doubts about "socializing " with him, because of his behaviors. In my opinion, he was moody, passive aggressive and distant...he says things to me that cut through my heart and this is even true post affair, but I took his emotional abuse because for years I thought I deserved it.

Sometime in my 39th year, I had an epiphany that I have had enough of him. I completely self destructed and not only hurt him, but I hurt myself. A very bad choice on my part. I said this before, I should have left him. It would have been easier. I would NEVER encourage anyone to engage in this behavior.

Now, it is 3 years post affair, and I still think he is unstable. Do I think it is as bad as before the affair, no I do not. But I am not a happy wife.

I am not happy with several aspects of meeting the top needs. I lost passion for him. This didn't just happen over night, of course. This is several years of feeling that he left me lonely and I felt like he was cruel to me a lot. I don't know that I can get the passion back. He may feel the same way. He says that I am anxious and that this is an LB for him. I disagree. This is partly due to the fact that when a wife is living with a husband whom she feels this way about, the odds are that the wife will be anxious.

I want this marriage to work. I certainly wouldn't be here on the forum if I wasn't committed and recommitted to him. I am far from perfect. I have read all of your posts, both his and mine. He needs to be ACCOUNTABLE for him and his actions and I need to be ACCOUNTABLE for me. He tends to subtly blame me for his years of AO. Should I blame him for my affair?? Of course, I know I shouldn't, but you get my point.

Thoughts???

I hope that it is ok that I am posting on HFD site. It seems like a nice flow of information.

Also, I thought of another example from today. We are both taking off tomorrow. Shortly after he came in from work, I said are you excited about having a three day weekend with me. My last weekend until summer classes start. He says not really - what difference whether I'm home or at work. I have to mow the lawn, go food shopping...I thought a day home while the children are in school means some level of romance and fun. I mean, REALLY HFD. DOES HE REALLY WANT THIS TO WORK??? Even something like food shopping can be made into fun when two people in love are together. The "IN LOVE" part is what I have doubts about, at times.

What do you think of starting the online program together? You will be assigned a coach who will keep you both accountable for your part.

My only thought is this: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9000_courses.html

Scroll down to the bottom and sign up for this course: The Marriage Builders� Online Program
$945.00
Includes the Marriage Builders� Online Seminar,
the Marriage Builders� Home Study Courses &
the Marriage Builders� Accountability Program (1 year).

If you want to BE in love you have to do the program. Really.

Well, I know there are a couple of books that I haven't read and are in the process of ordering. Do you think with the information that I'm sharing with you, a coach would be most appropriate?

Will the coach help both of us break through years of behaviors that have not been conducive for a healthy marriage?

YES!! You will not be able to implement this program without professional help. You have already proven this. Reading more books is not the answer.

I do feel bad, but the truth is the truth. I refuse to sugar coat this situation for another 3 years.

We have been together since we were 15 and 16 - never broke up. The thought of starting over is brutal. In my opinion, a divorce would be tragic.

Why are you two resisting the online course so much? I just don't get it.

There must be 50 posts on your two threads telling you to do the course, and every one of them has been met with a rebuttal. Why?

If you want to know why your wife is depressed and anxious, HFD, there you have it. You're still bringing up the affair, using your resentment to punish her, having ONE AO A DAY, and DJs.

You are causing the depression that bothers you so much.

So what are you going to do to fix it?

You guys really do need a professional coach to get through this. There is way too much resentment on both sides after several years of flirting with the program. There is a lot of blame on both sides. If just reading the books was the answer, you guys would've been fixed two years ago.

As I stated in my earlier posts...my H and I were able to recover without the online program but neither of us were resentful or pointing fingers. We both owned up to our behaviors and WANTED to change them - desperately! I don't see that happening here.

It doesn't seem like the money is the biggest issue here. I think one or both of you is truly afraid of being held accountable to change. Until you lose the "but HE..." and "but SHE..." attitudes, you've got a hard road to travel. Only a professional can help you guys with that at this juncture.

I know the answer to this one. I'll give it to them.

The answer is contained in a hermetically sealed envelope that has been kept on Melodylane's porch since noon yesterday...




It's the cost!

The cost, you say?


Well, yes. The cost.


It's pretty steep... when two people are not in love with each other... and don't even seem to like each other right now!


Though... I wonder how much a knock-down-drag-out divorce would cost?


I wonder how much the health bills caused by living for years and years in an unhappy marriage would cost?



Online program? Pffff, that's too pricey! I prefer my money be spent on heart attacks!

This - THIS - is what I have been asking myself too. Why on earth do you - HFD and HFM - not do the online course?! You are both suffering so much but you both - deep inside - know that you are much better off sorting this out and living a happy and harmonious life together than being divorced and fighting hatefully with each other.

The online course is the fastest way to achieve this goal. Doing it yourself - well, it hasn't worked, has it? No shame in that, we - all of us - are/have been pretty much idiots when it comes to all this relationship stuff. That's why we need objective advisers.

HFD and HFM, do the online course! You both sound so sad and fraught and confused. You deserve to be happy.

Nobody who does the online course does it from a position of already being in love. Everybody who does it is in a desperate position, usually having discovered an affair. Often they are on the brink of divorce, yet those desperate people take that step towards saving their marriages.

I don't think that what you wrote can be the answer. I'd really like to hear from this couple.

I agree. The part I bolded - about objective advisers - is especially important, especially after all this time. I would only add PROFESSIONAL in front of the objective. We can all advise on parts that strike a chord with us but the reality is, it's gotten pretty complicated. One of the professionals can help prioritize issues and what needs dealing with first. Not to mention - more importantly, help each party focus on what he/she needs to change and to stop pointing fingers at the other, which only leads to rationalization of why he/she doesn't need to change, or can't change.

Yes...at first... but this couple is way over 2 years in here. Not to mention the conditions of this post, originally: hfm posted - said her peace - but then backed out. If she hadn't posted, there would be no expectation of her responding, etc...

Of course, what's more important than posting is DOING the program...which both parties need to do, obviously.

They have not been doing the program for over 2 years though! He's been emotionally abusing her all that time instead of recovering. So, yeah, it's STILL "at first."

YEP. It really doesn't matter how much HFM posts, as long as the two of them START the program.

I'm going to respond to a number of posts on my thread and HFM's thread.

1. About the trickle-truth: your information is incorrect. I was NOT and have NOT been hounding HFM for details about her affair. In March of 2013, after smelling a perfume she bought, HFM called me on her way to work that AM to tell me while I was in work details she had NEVER revealed before: that she and the POS had gone together to several hotels after work, and a "general" idea as far as what months this occurred (the perfume "triggered" her to remember). Fall of 2010 until Spring of 2013 for details to be revealed. I suppose I'm wrong because I had a reaction to this news.

This is not about me pestering for restaurant names or badgering her about a street name or address. This is about details of her affair that she never revealed from the get-go and it set me back.

2. About AOs: Do I have AOs? Yes.
Am I embarrassed by this and want to show my son to be a better man? Of course.
Am I working to fully eliminate that LB by reading and researching MB and the books? Yes.
Do I have one a day? No, I do not.

3. HFM also brings up the affair, talks about it, cries about it, etc. When she does, I engage her and listen and discuss as well, because she wants me to listen to her. It is meeting an EN to listen, but this practice is not good and I will end this.

4. I have been here 30 months, so I'll accept the blame of not being as far along as we should. I just want it understood that HFM engaged here in the 26th of those 30 months.

5. I am NOT opposed to the online program. HFM says that the $1,000 is tough because son needs braces, tuition, need kitchen remodel, etc. HFD says: on many levels, the $1,000 is cheaper on many levels than the alternative. (but doesn't a $1,000 expense need to be POJA'd)?

6.When HFD has says "I feel that HFM....." I am told I'm making a DJ.

When HFM says "I feel that HFD....." her word is taken as gospel, the Truth (this apparent "look" I gave? I guess sharing my perspective of what happened would be a LB).

7.On our way to an appointment this AM, HFM began discussing her posts from last night, and she was visually bothered and upset and began discussing it and getting angry. To the point where HFM said: " I don't care if this marriage lasts or not, really."

She did apologize later, saying "Ignore what I said earlier...I'm due for my period and in a miserable mood."

But, since depression is NOT an LB, I guess it's my responsibility to tolerate that behavior.



This is long enough, so I'll pause here.

Thanks for reading.

This "he said" "she said" "no I didn't" "he did it too" "she did it worse" is ridiculous. People taking sides and refereeing your fights here is also ridiculous.

You need a coach from the online programme.

I was trying to be light about it, but apparently it floated right over collective heads here;


The cost; $1k seems steep BECAUSE you two have been love-busting each other and are deep into withdrawal.

However; the cost of the program is cheaper than either divorce, or the associated health risks with living in a constantly stressful and miserable marriage.


The cost of the program is cheaper than either divorce, or the associated health risks associated with living in a constantly stressful and miserable marriage.


A divorce costs more than $1,000. Over the rest of your lives, a divorce could potentially cost you tens of thousands of dollars.

A heart attack could cost you tens of thousands.

HFM, you need to agree to do the program. Your marriage is much more important to your son than braces or tuition. And it is immensely more important than a kitchen remodel. Having a great marriage is a quality of life issue that affects every area of your life. You guys cannot get away with do-it-yourself anymore. You need professional help. It will be the best $1000 you ever spent.

We will see how serious you really are, HFM.

5 Ways Divorce Takes Your Money

$1k is pennies on the dollar in comparison to the alternative...

Probably you don't realize how many you are having. Dr. Harley says if your spouse says you are having an angry outburst, you probably are, and should trust their appraisal of the situation.

The fact that you don't agree with her on frequency suggests you haven't quite accepted what you will need to accept in order to overcome angry outbursts. It says to me you may not be serious about this.

May I suggest that you consider the private coaching as a trial run. It"s cheaper to do a session, and it will give you a taste of how beneficial it can be. So far, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Good! Put that subject to rest once and for all!

This kind of defense of yourself is completely irrelevant! Just don't do it. If you're not doing it, then continuing to not do it is easy.

Why don't you just quit doing the things she says are disrespectful?

The way the program works is, you learn to avoid doing or saying anything your wife feels is disrespectful. You do NOT quibble with her over whether it really is disrespectful or not. If she says it was disrespectful, then she is accurately reporting her feelings: she feels disrespected. It IS Gospel truth!

Sentences that start out "I feel that my wife/husband ..." may or may not be disrespectful. It depends on what you are saying. If you want to post some examples, we can help you figure out WHY your wife feels disrespected by what you are saying, and what you can do differently.

No, you do not need to tolerate angry outbursts.

But "I don't care whether this marriage last or not" is a simple statement of feeling. It tells you your balance in her love bank is zero or negative. If you want to save your marriage, you are going to need to act on this information.

Actually, I am quite aware of how many I am or are not having.

The fact that I don't agree on the frequency suggests nothing but I disagree on the frequency. I'm allowed my perspective, as is HFM.

That you would assert that somehow you "know" that I haven't accepted what I need to do or that I am not serious comes across as a DJ, or at the very minimum, an inorrect assumption.

No one said you were "hounding." But you did say that you told your wife that if she remembers anything, she needs to tell you. These are your words from another thread:

It's not your call. You don't GET to say how many you are having, according to Dr. Harley. Your wife DOES.

So, when are you going to do what it takes to stop them?
When are you going to sign up for the online program?

Dad and Mom, I suggest one step better: get out your credit card, or scrape together the money, and SIGN UP FOR THE ONLINE COUNSELING, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! No trial run, no kicking the tires: COMMIT! Quit waffling over the cost of braces, or school, or anything else - your kids would rather have the two of you together and happy than anything else. Get your priorities straight and GET TO WORK!

Although I think our MB peer support forums are second to none, I would much rather see the two of you busy with your MB coach than spending your time on the forums.

Don't try it out, or stick your toes in the water to see how you like it. COMMIT! How long do you plan to equivocate, here?? What are you waiting for? Dad and Mom, I want an answer to this!

Wow.

If you don't take your angry outbursts more seriously than this, I don't see a lot of hope, here.

Did anyone listen to the radio program yesterday? Since it was a Friday broadcast there's still time.

At (approximately) the 7:00, 27:30, and 34:30 marks, Dr. Harley makes the following point. Speaking about a WS, he states (and I'll paraphrase) that after doing unbelievable damage to the marriage by having an affair, he has no legitimate right to complain about the much more minor reactions by his BS in response. Yes, they would have to be addressed over time, but bringing them up is nothing but a ploy by the WS to unfairly even the discussion, on the lines of "Yes I had an affair, but she.......", thereby not being left naked to address his own behavior.

Just some insight we maybe should keep in mind here......

If I understand correctly, this was because he hadn't stopped his affair, implemented EPs, and developed transparency. Once these are done, the business of both spouses working with equal basic respect, with the shared goal of a mutually fulfilling marriage begins. The "straighten out your spouse that had the affair" approach isn't going to work here. They've been arguing about whose "burden" it is to fix this marriage for too long now, and we can't help them.

They have a majority answer from the forum and now it's up to them to implement the advice or not.

And let me also urge you and HFM to enlist in the coaching program, my friend.

You have been at this for almost three years, without much improvement. Can you envision another three years of this irresolution, when the alternative to avoid same would be the expenditure of less than $1 per day?

And your getting the professional assistance available there would preclude NG's having to read here that your relating of your version, in defense of charges leveled by HFM, are irrelevant!

Do it for ME, dude!

There is no excuse and no place for Lovebusters in a healthy marriage. I understand that.

I also know it seems I've been holding on to way too much resentment and hurt about the affair, and my feelings that EPs weren't put in place early on. That has to stop.

And it's time to get to the coaching center and get done what needs to get done to move this marriage to the place it could - and should - be.

Thank you.

(And yes, thanks, NG.)

Good for you!!

Go, Dad, Go!!

That sucking feeling, Dad, is your taker trying to forcefully implement a rectocranial inversion.

Recognize that, and knock it off bud.

We helped you get this far, just cause folks are getting tough on you doesn't mean they gave up. In fact, they are getting tough RATHER THAN giving up.

But, you know this already, dont you.

You are taking that call completely out of context and comparing apples to oranges. It was a serial cheater husband who believed he was entitled to his affairs and had no intention of stopping. THAT was the only reason Dr Harley suggested any discussion of his crimes. Instead of discussing his abusive behavior - and ways to END IT - he wanted to discuss her messy housekeeping as a way to blame HER for his affairs. The WH was so abusive that Dr H felt they should separate. The WS had just ended his 10th affair and had no intention of stopping.

In this situation, Dr Harley would tell them to stop discussing the affair and STOP all lovebusters. PERIOD. If you don't get that, you don't GET Marriage Builders. NO BS is ever entitled to lovebust his spouse.

I am really astonished that you would relate that situation to this one, because I assure you Dr Harley would not.

In the case of HFM and HFD, they won't have a marriage unless they focus on ALL bad behavior in the marriage.

You do see they are not recovering don't you? Do you want them to recover or not?

It will stop when it is replaced with good feelings. I have said this a million times, if you don't create a GREAT marriage, you will have resentment about the past. When you are happy in the present, your mind does not go to the tragedy of the past.

Not to mention the professionals will hold both sets of feet to the fire, instead of just one.

(eggs + act + Lee)


Your current mood/emotion will affect what you recall.

You are taking that call completely out of context...

(No, I am not. I just re-listened to the re-broadcast.)

Principles remain principles, Mel.

That statement is what prevents biases and interpretations from interfering with analysis. (Goose, gander - same sauce)

But in point of fact, you are wrong about the case yesterday. As presented, in his e-mail to Dr. H, the WH openly stated that his complaints were about her depression, lack of attention, and hoarding behavior, manifestations of her devastation from his affair, and all arising AFTER the discovery, much as this WW has now decided that her BH's AOs are the BIIIIG problem.

Dr Harley saw right through that WH's smokescreen. Would that the folks here saw through the WW's attempts as clearly.

Sorry but you did take it completely out of context and don't understand the steps of recovery. The strategy for a couple who is 3 years beyond the end of an affair and one that is still suffering from active serial cheating is worlds apart.

The fact that you would even suggest such a thing indicates that you DON'T get it yourself.

I assure you Dr Harley would tell this couple to stop talking about the affair proton, whereas the other couple NEEDS to keep it on the front burner until and unless it is resolved.

Wouldn't Dr. Harley agree with her?

P.s. you should read Sugarcanes quotes. You can see what he tells couples about talking about the affair. That is exactly what he tells us on the private forum. Just ask yourself WHY he told Danielle, wife of serial cheater, something different yesterday..

"The purpose of full disclosure is to get the facts so that the conditions that created the affair can be identified and eliminated. The purpose of avoiding discussion of the affair after full disclosure is that it becomes, "dwelling on mistakes of the past" which is one of the four enemies of good conversation. Every time you talk about the affair, it makes withdrawals in both of your Love Banks. So I'd bring up the subject again only if it would help identify lifestyle conditions that should be eliminated that have not yet been addressed. From what you've said, I don't think that new revelations would achieve that objective, so further discussion about the affair should be avoided."http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2587147#Post2587147


"Stop talking to each other about your husband's affair, and start learning to avoid disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts. It makes it harder to put the past behind you when you talk about it. You bring the past into the present and relive the tragedy whenever it's discussed." http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2307729#Post2307729

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moderators note: DO NOT COMMENT ON MODERATED POSTS.

Reminder to posters to stick to MB principles or refrain from posting. It is not helpful to this couple to be bickering over very basic concepts. This needs to stop.

I don't think any of us can say - and doing so would be pure speculation, especially with the amount of info on hand. In other cases, even when there have been AO's, other things have been noted as the "big" problem.

This is why a professional is needed - to get to the nuts and bolts of the problem instead of speculation on diagnosis. Not that people on here can't help with principles, but diagnosis - especially with the complexities of this particular situation, needs to be left to the pros.

Well, yes, we know what Dr. Harley would advise, which is the point of the forum - to pass on his insights. This is pretty cut and dry: stop talking about the affair, and eliminate angry outbursts.

There are no circumstances I'm aware of where Dr. Harley does not identify a husband's angry outbursts as a "big problem."

Dr Harley would say the big issue is angry outbursts because recovery cannot even begin until that happens. The continual discussion of the affair is triggering his angry outbursts. When there is a problem with AOs, that has to be addresses FIRST.

"A" big problem is not the same as "the" big problem. And also - advising is not the same as diagnosing.

I bring this up for several reasons. Obviously any AOs MUST be addressed. But to not address other issues in this marriage is a big mistake. There is also depression at play here. And no matter how much is known about MB principles, only a professional can rule out clinical depression.

My mother was clinically depressed and would claim my father was "going off" on her when he was the mildest mannered person you would ever know. I think I've seen my dad commit 2 acts of AOs my entire life.

I'm not saying this is the case here. Just pointing out that there should not be rush to judgement based on such few posts by hfm.

Are hfd's AOs the cause of hfm's depression? Maybe - but maybe not. Or, maybe they are one cause but not the only cause.

I'm just cautious of grabbing onto one thing and not dealing with the totality of a situation.

But no one is saying it is the ONLY issue. It is the TOP issue. And we know why she is depressed. We don't need a "professional" for that. What does Dr Harley say is the #1 reason for depression in women?

I know it was very hard for me to let go of H's affair but I have to say, being able to control my tongue on the matter was the best thing I did for recovery - and probably the main reason we were able to do the program at home. At first it bothered me that H wouldn't bring it up in the sense that I wanted to hear again "how sorry he was" or "what a mistake it was" but he was right not to do so. There even came a time when I wanted more details. On my thread I was advised that if I had not gotten the truth fully I needed to seek it. I was also advised that I was wanting to being it up for other reasons. I'm glad I dealt with it on here rather than dragging it up with my H. It proved to be best: I already had the details I needed.

I think where this gets hard is when a FBS is suffering from PTSD symptoms because of not getting the full truth to begin with.

In this case, both parties have been guilty about bringing up the affair - not just hfd.

I can certainly see where AOs must be eliminated for recovery. I think the same can be said for depression issues.

Depression can have hormonal or other clinical elements to it as well - even in women. I know, firsthand. I'm not saying her marriage is not at play in this - but it behooves us all to not assume there are not other things that come into play as well.

I have a fantastic marriage now - but still have to deal with depression.

Absolutely. Neither of them should be bringing it up. It only brings the sadness of the past into the present.


But I want to make sure it is understood that no one here is saying that AO's are the ONLY problem. No one has said that. It is the KEY problem right now because it surely contributes to her depression and makes recovery impossible. It is impossible to have a happy marriage with someone who has angry outbursts.

It is the only issue being addressed with hfm, currently. Other than " do the online program."

The TOP reason for having depression in women is a bad marriage. No one here is trying to diagnose the reason, though, so I am confused why this is being brought up? We surely can all agree that an unhappy marriage where angry outbursts are routine does not HELP depression.

Dr. Harley would say that it is VERY LIKELY.

So do I. I've had hormonal depression, too, as well as postpartum depression. A woman's relationship with her husband is STILL the number one cause for depression, and it is VERY LIKELY that HFM's depression will go away once they actually start recovery.

This is pure Dr. Harley, Sunny. Why are you arguing it? We all know that it is entirely possible that hormones or another clinical problem is the cause, but it is not likely given what has been going on for the past 3 years.

It is also impossible to do recovery right when one party is depressive and anxious. And while it may be assumed that the elimination of AOs will cure that - I can assure you it won't if there are other things factoring into that depression and anxiety.

Not to mention - there are lots of other LBers that probably need addressing.

No, not at all. Anger is a KEY problem, however, we have talked to them both about not talking about the affair among other things.

It has to be a key focus because it does have to be addressed and corrected BEFORE recovery can get underway. Just because focus is being placed on his Angry outbursts does not mean it is the ONLY issue.

You don't talk about "other lovebusters" until the angry outbursts are CORRECTED, though. That has to be corrected FIRST or this is a non starter. And very likely the cause of her depression.

Let me put this another way. It is not SAFE to discuss other lovebusters UNTIL the angry outbursts are under control. Can you imagine trying to negotiate annoying habits with someone who has AOs? Can you learn negotiation skills with someone with an anger problem? NO!

So when there are AO's, that has to be arrested so the rest of recovery can take place.

I'm not arguing Dr. Harley. I'm stating the fact that the depression issue needs to be dealt with on its own merit - aside from the AOs.

There is a lot of over-reaching going on here, based on minimal posts by hfm. But alas, my phone is dying and I can't go into all of my thoughts in detail at this juncture. I can only say, if I had just left it all on my H to be a great husband and not taken the bull by the horns with my depression - and checked out every avenue, taking personal responsibility - I would be divorced at this point.

I disagree completely. If you feel that her depression needs to be focused on, no one is stopping you from addressing that. That doesn't mean that angry outbursts are not a KEY part of this problem.

It is no surprise that she is depressed given the sad state of their marriage. Anyone would be depressed if they had an unhappy marriage. People in happy marriages are rarely depressed, after all.

And once again, what we are telling them is EXACTLY what Dr Harley tells other couples in similar situations.

There is no reason to address the rest of the program as long as AOs are going on. Dr. Harley says that recovery is IMPOSSIBLE with AOs going on, and he doesn't even recommend that EN be met as long as it is a problem.

Original Post
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Original letter

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Sunny, if you know that angry outbursts and fighting in a bad marriage CAUSE depression in women, why would anyone focus on other reasons? Psychologists know that the #1 cause of depression in women is a bad marriage. If that cause is eliminated, then of course, one looks to other causes. But depression can be managed by anti-depressants regardless of the causes.

Angry outbursts and an unhappy marriage certainly don't help her depression. We do know this.

No, there is not. It is ridiculous to say we are over-reaching when a poor relationship IS THE MOST LIKELY CAUSE of her depression.

Thanks Prisca. Sunny, do you see why we are focusing on angry outbursts instead of other lovebusters?

You realize the coaching center is different than taking the online course, right?

Right, the most important thing she can do for their relationship right now is to put him on notice that she will no longer tolerate his angry outbursts.

No, we are taking hfm's complaints completely seriously, which is the proper response. And we need to push dad to take them just as seriously.

Semantics, but - HFD's AOs are wrecking the marriage, dwindling his LB$ balance with HFM, and THAT is very likely a contributor to her depression.



Not to mention, a holistic approach to depression would include non-medical/non-pharmacological interventions first to eliminate them as possibilities.


If the program is implemented and adhered to and the depression still remains, then referral to a clinician/diagnostician would be more than appropriate. Even with a clinical diagnosis, maintaining a healthy marital relationship would be part of the Plan Of Care.


In other words, there is NO reason to postpone improving the marital situation.

I have 1% battery left - so I'm just going to say this: of course marital improvement should not be postponed and is priority! And of course AOs should be eliminated! The over-reaching statement was because I do not see how their whole dynamics can be assessed from the limited posts of hfm. And I think it is inappropriate to call my post ridiculous. As I stated - my mother's depression made her feel my dad was "angry" and he most certainly was not committing AOs. Therefore - I felt a professional should be the one to assess cause and affect here.

Depression is most likely caused by marital unhappiness - ok then: both parties have responsibility in that state of the union and both parties should address their issues. Right? It's not AOs are the cause of depression. And that's if you leave any other circumstances or clinical reasons out of this. Hfd has been expressing the need for hfm to address her D&A for a long time .... And I doubt the depression has only been for 3 years. I'm sure it's been longer.

I'm not trying to absolve hfd of his need for elimating AOs. But even Mel said that in the first session her coach pointed out her IBs as the/a big issue. So - even if her H had to eliminate AOs first, she was responsible for her IBs.

I've only said that I think a holistic approach - with a professional - would be best in this situation rather than only pounding hfd about ao's and not telling hfm to put her big girl panties on and do some work too. I'm pretty sure dad's love bank is in the red too. It is going to take both of them in there fighting for this marriage.

Not at all. What I said was that they identified my IB's on the first day. They didn't know about his AO's until later. Here is what Dr Harley said to us when he was told about his AO's:

here

As you can see, he focuses FIRST on the angry outbursts.



The only professional help they need is the help of a MB coach to help them stick to this program. The problems in this marriage are nothing more or less than any other marriage. This is a typical, basic bad marriage that has been damaged extensively by bad behavior on both sides.

He is having 1 AO a day.
They are still talking about the affair.
That is all the information we need to assess what needs to be done.


Sorry, but your mom was right according to Dr. Harley.

This example is anecdotal and is NOT marriage builders. Dr. Harley states that if one spouse feels the other is having an AO, there is no debate. He IS.

If HFM says he is having AOs once a day, he IS. That's how Dr. Harley handles it.

We already know what he's going to say about this, because he makes it VERY CLEAR.

She cannot make him stop the AOs or fill her lovebank.
She cannot address this. He must.
She can get on AD, but the issue will still not be addressed until HFD does what he needs to do.

Who has said that HFM is not responsible for her own Lovebusters?
What has been said is that the AOs MUST be taken care of first, because that's WHAT DR. HARLEY SAYS TO DO IN SITUATIONS LIKE THIS.

I'm sorry, WHO has told HFM to sit by and do nothing?

Yes.. By professional I meant MB coach. That's where I started with this whole discussion - with them needing to take all this to an MB professional.

That is exactly what we have told them. But that doesn't mean the coach is going to tell them anything different than what we have told them. *WE* have been told this exact same thing in our own marriages by Dr Harley. They need a coach to hold them accountable for sticking to the program. They do not have the self discipline or commitment to stick to it on their own.

And Dr. Harley also repeats these things frequently in his letters to other couples and the radio show. It's not a case by case thing.

post to my husband:

But we don't need a lot of posts by hfm to understand the first order of business: eliminating Dad's AOs.

In retrospect, I think any over-reaching that may have occurred would have been all the time spent on other issues without realizing that Dad was love-busting daily with AOs. We were not aware of that at the time. We are now, and have stopped so that we can revisit the first steps of their recovery. And the first step is to end the AOs.

It's a matter of following the steps and not skipping any.

For the record - my mother was and is a liar and master manipulator. It is not correct to assume that she felt my dad was having AOs so therefore he was - whether others saw it as such or not. The fact is, she liked to make it seem so - to garner sympathy to get people on her side. That's a big difference. I'm not saying that's the case here. When my mom sought help for her depression, she admitted this. In her depressed state she was so self-centered it didn't matter to her that she lied.

When I was depressed and not seeking help for it I was very self-centered as well.

Usually, if a spouse tells another spouse "there's a problem", there IS. Was it AOs on your father's part? I don't know. That would have to be something your parents themselves would have to disclose. To comment either way would be total speculation on my part, considering that neither of your parents is here to discuss their specific situation. No offense, Sunny, but you are relating their relationship through the prism of your role as their child. We would be speculating about them with this second-hand information.

In this case, hfm and hfd have both confirmed the existence of his chronic AOs. That's where we need to start.

No matter how how dishonest and manipulating your mother was, she probably recognized when your father was angry, even if nobody else did. As the target of his anger she would be attuned to it.

My own wife made a post here about my anger at one time, attempting to dismiss it.


I tend to "shut off" when I become angry in an attempt to prevent outburst. I go numb. I actually become very, very relaxed. My wife recognizes this, having been witness to it. To other people, I may not appear angry. My wife knows better.

Exactly! Here is what my husband said to Dr Harley:

"I realise that there is a problem on how we commicate and I will work on resolving that problem.
I am confused on the angry outburst comment though. At no time did I get angry and have an outburst. My idea of of an outburst is yelling and screaming but I guess that is not the case? Talking to Mel though I do see where she thinks it was, so I apologise And will take the approipate actions to amke sure it does not happen again. Honestly looking back, it shouldnt of been that big of deal to me and should of let it pass.
However,It seems to me that whenever I disagree with Mel, that her first commment is that I am trying to control her. Same could be said about POJA....."

What you're describing is actually what Dr. Harley says to do in response to an angry outburst. If it bugs your wife, it might suffice just to go off and do it alone.

Fred Rogers used to walk off the set of his show and play piano when he got mad, until he felt better. He made sure he was off by himself withdrawn where he wouldn't say anything that would hurt anybody.

That's stage 1. Stage 2 is I walk away, just as you describe. It used to drive my wife nuts because I refused to fight, or argue, or deal with anything if I lost my temper, and she preferred to yell, and scream, and cry - and yes, she told me this at one time. I explained to her that there was no way anything we talked about while angry would be anything other than a series of below the belt shots looking for nothing more to injure. I know I am insane if I allow my anger to boil over, it used to reach black-out levels when I was younger. I have a horrible temper, so I control it. Relaxing when it hits is now natural to me. But, sometimes it requires I shut down and reboot, or redirect.

During the first year, it meant she had to learn that if she wished to be there, she had to let me be and just be there. I had to explain to her that I could not be prodded, could not be "fixed" in those states... she tried anyway. Though, time and some self-discipline (redirection, self-busying) has reduced meltdowns from 1-2 a week for the first 6 months, 1 a month for the second 6 months, to 0 over the past 2 years.

Add to this - As Mel mentioned, people with trouble controlling emotional outbursts tend to be passionate, which is why they get emotional.

So, a rule of thumb to avoid emotional outbursts is to avoid discussion about things that a) either of us are passionate about, plus b) we disagree about.

I tend to remember a certain poster having an issue some time ago where discussion about a passionate subject led to the husband allowing himself to blurt out an AO/DJ.


If I could just remember that poster's name...

I remember my early days of recovery, before I found Marriage Builders. I would trigger and would just BLOW. I have posted before about my AOs. I will forever regret my actions (hitting my husband?? OMG. Verbal abuse? OMG. )

I was insane during these episodes. INSANE. 'Passionate' would describe me perfectly. I remember Mr. Bliss saying, after one of my rants, "I don't even feel anything anymore, when you go off on me. I've told you all I can. All I want to do is heal our marriage."

Ow. Time for MaritalBliss to get over her histrionics. That's the same time I found Marriage Builders and started reading. Thank God. Thank God I found MB and started reading.

Those outbursts did NOTHING positive for us. When I found Marriage Builders, I learned to reign myself in and get control of myself. That was critical to our recovery. Marriage Builders is what made the difference.

Markos,

In researching/reading about Lovebusters on this site, the articles and radio programs, etc., D & A, in and of themselves, are not classified as LBs by Dr. Harley. Behaviors associated or as a result of them are. Is that correct?

If so, then going through the types of LBs, when HFM is depressed/anxious/overwhelmed, the behaviors that are present:

Angry Outbursts (Yes).
Disrespectful Judgments (Yes).
Selfish Demands (Yes).
Annoying Behavior (No? this on I'm unlear about, what 'qualifes' as one, because the examples I see are small issues?).
(Dishonesty. No)
(Independent Behavior. No.)


If you (or anyone, really) have a minute to address this before I press on, I'd be most grateful.

Folks will help your wife.

Let's work on helping you clean up your side of the street now, OK?

HHH,

I am, trust me.

Markos had tasked me a few days ago to find what Dr. Harley stated about depression and how it alone is not defined as an LB.

I am just responding to what (I think) he wanted me to find out.

Thanks.

She will need to work to eliminate all three of those that you have identified. Dr. Harley has a procedure for this in his book Love Busters and there are worksheets for this procedure in the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. Our coach strongly suggested that we ONLY communicate about love busters on worksheets, because when we tried to communicate otherwise, we always fought. The worksheets are carefully designed to keep conflict to a minimum.

You guys need to work to eliminate all three of the abusive love busters (demands, disrespect, and anger). If your wife is not motivated to do so, Dr. Harley's advice is for you to go ahead and do so, anyway, because once the love busters are gone a wife will often start to be more motivated to work on the marriage. This is EXACTLY what happened to me and Prisca.

I strongly recommend you listen to the radio show daily to help support the mindset changes that you will need in order to eliminate these habits. You will need reinforcement that this is a normal way to live and that there is a way to build a happy lifestyle and get what you need in marriage without these three love busters. I also strongly recommend the online program as Dr. Harley's coaches can help keep you motivated and on track.

In a radio show that was aired recently, Dr. Harley was saying that when a person is in a depression, they are very often not open to receiving Love Bank deposits, nor are they particularly interested in making Love Bank deposits.

He also said that it's difficult to be around someone who is depressed, because the experience is not very enjoyable for the one who is not depressed.

A spouse's depression in and of itself may not make them very enjoyable to be with, but it's not defined as a Love Buster. It's what can often come out of a depression that is a Love Buster.

When my H was in a long-standing depression, caused by a no-win situation with his career, he began having Angry Outbursts frequently. I felt badly for him being in a depression, but the Love Buster was the AO.

I've had anxiety disorder and even took meds for it. I wasn't a lot of fun to be around until the meds kicked in, but there were no actual love busters happening. Once my life style changed for the better, no more anxiety.

You are essentially correct. Behavior is a love buster. Lack of behavior is not. So, blowing up at you, cursing your mother, and going after you with a frying pan is a love buster. (I know helpformom does not do this!) Feeling moody and depressed because life is not happy is not a love buster; it is a feeling.

Tricky part: judging feelings is a love buster. It's a disrespectful judgment. Example: "You should get help and go to a doctor so you don't feel this way." That's a disrespectful judgment.

Digging into the causes of love busters can also be a disrespectful judgment. Example: "You're saying that because you're having PMS." Try it and you're dead, Pal. If your spouse is love busting you, it's up to them to find out how to stop it, not you.

Regarding marital problem solving in general, Dr. Harley takes what he calls a "concentric circles" approach: try the easiest solution first, the one most likely to work. If it does not work, then move further out to try more unusual solutions. For a depressed wife, Dr. Harley's first solution is to eliminate the love busters and begin spending fifteen hours a week together with fun, conversation, etc. If that does not work or is impossible, then we start to look out for other solutions.

Here's my recommendation: get on antidepressants yourself, get into the online program and rigorously eliminate your three abusive love busters (demands, disrespect, and anger), and start following the POUA to the letter. Then see if your wife's depression doesn't lift. It is possible that if you show this level of energy and effort, she will be motivated to have herself checked out if she feels that there is a more serious problem. But it is also extremely likely that her depression will lift and that she will be motivated to join you in ending demands, disrespect, and anger.

Markos,

Thank you. Actually, you are very close to the mark on several points (...it's not a frying pan any more ha, ha...).

HFM will self-admit that the D & A pre-date HFD, and even in our romantic stage of dating pre-marriage, the bouts of D & A regarding college, career, family (non-HFD stuff) existed. And for years, I often stated "I'd love it if...", and not "You should..." regarding it.

Sadly, however, my own failings not only added me to that list in our marriage -- it seems to have rocketed me to the top of it.

We just discussed ADs today -- and I am open to trying them. HFM is indeed getting herself checked out as well, but I will leave it to her to discuss, if/when she is comfortable.

And we are in agreement here: we need a stringent plan of eliminating our LBs (with the LB worksheets/questionnaires & online program) and our UA time commitment.


We've both had enough of not being in as happy a marriage as we want to be in -- but, luckily, we want that with each other.

It's very encouraging to see you reading and researching, dad!!!

That is great Are you signing up for the online program soon, then?

Dad,


Step back and look at those things;

College, career, family...


Those are sources of angst. So, while you were dating, those sources existed and carried their own emotional weight, you were a source of happiness. So, your not-yet-wife fell in love with you and married you.

And that is the crux - to be the source of your spouse's happiness.

The problem for just about every marriage here at one time or another is that we forgot to be the source of our spouse's happiness, or we forgot to allow our spouse to be so, or to help them to be that source of happiness more effectively.

Those are the keys.

This sounds encouraging, dad! I know that when you guys apply yourself to the practices here, you are going to be a lot happier!

Thank you.

That is our ultimate goal.

I am very happy to read that. I still feel that you two need professional coaching to fully (and QUICKLY) overcome the tight knot of egos (takers) that you two had going that kept you both wrestling so bitterly for such a long time.

The coach will help you to lay down your weapons, reach a disarmed truce, and then achieve a truly contented and safe marriage.

You have both suffered for a long time. You deserve to be happy.

You guys are going to be so happy when the Love Busters start to vanish.

Have you read the friends and enemies of good conversation? This is where it starts to get fun.

I think they are planning to call the coaching center for sessions with the Harley kids. I asked for clarification but it wasn't answered. Which makes me think they are skipping online program, hopefully I am wrong......


HFD, like everyone else, I strongly recommend you do the online program where you will be assigned a coach who will work closely with you two on everything from LBs and being you accountability partner re UA time.

Yes, we're looking to get our financial "ducks in a row" in order to register.

HFM suggested we tap our emergency fund to pay for it...just getting things in order.

Thanks to all!

That sounds like some great enthusiasm there!

This can certainly be considered an emergency.

Update?

dad? We're worried about you guys.

Dad? We're hearing crickets, here. What's up?

Need to get linked to any place/resources on the MB website / Dr. Harley's writings (if they exist) regarding:

1. using PORH and POJA with family members, siblings specifically

2. anything that addresses if being O & H has its limits, may be impossible to set boundaries with family, what to do if O & H is futile with a sibling...

I thank you all.

hfd:

Openness and honesty is a policy for within marriage. While in general Dr. Harley says we should be open to the world because it keeps us more honest, we don't owe them the same level of honesty and transparency that we owe our spouse. For example, I don't disclose all my financial details to anybody but my wife. I don't talk about our sex life to the world, etc.

Likewise on the POJA - this is a rule for marriage. While in general I'd say it's immoral to coerce someone into doing something they are not enthusiastic about, the POJA itself is guidance for marriage.

Can you describe the exact situation that's going on so we can advise you? Usually we need to take it back into the context of marriage to find what's right. If it's inlaw trouble, there's very good material in His Needs Her Needs for Parents, and Love Busters. I had to set some serious, serious boundaries with my family, and it worked.

Markos,

Generally, I guess we're looking for direction regarding being O&H and setting boundaries with family.

Without going on forever with the drama, my SIL invited parents/family to her house for Yom Kippur Saturday...but not our family. we always invite ALL family over for any events at our place, but it isn't reciprocated.

This has been a pattern for awhile.

We've tried to be O&H and share how it hurts our family, and how disappointing it is for the kids to be excluded.

The behavior continues nonetheless.

So, what to do when being O&H isn't 'working', and how to set a boundary (if that's even applicable) that being excluded from family events is not acceptable without offering ultimatums of being spiteful and answering 'un-invites' with un-invites?

Thank you!

...and markos, is there a more appropriate place on this forum for this line of inquiry to solicit feedback?

Thanks!

Markos?

Just wanted you to know I responded to your previous note...

Thank you!!!

I'm done...I'm out. Hfm and I got into a disagreement tonight and we said some mean things to each other and then she called her sister who she only reconnected with a couple years ago and told her EVERYTHING about the affair even though we agreed no one else would be told or if we exposed to anyone else it would be together...she did this on her own no poja...I've left...I'll stay at a hotel for the weekend to think about how to proceed next...need to consider a divorce...I'm tired of these breaches of trust...I can't do this anymore...too much mental illness and impulsivity and IB and no care or protection...

Sorry hfd.

Are you in a hotel? Have you calmed down?

What was your argument about?

Yes. I am calm, was calm the whole time. The argument began because she started on me about UA time and not doing anything and I'm busy on the computer blah blah. Same craziness all the time...tired of living with her unresolved mental issues...tired of begging for sf and other needs to be met because she's constantly depressed, anxious, "ruined", by her affair. It was not her decision to unilaterally decide who to tell, but she broke that trust again. I can't stay with a person who views life through such a skewed lens. Its time to stop the charade and walk away.

It's been a long time that you are dealing with this type of behavior.

Knowing when to say when is important.

Good luck, man.

She was putting up with your neglect, which it seems by your own admission has continued, and your angry outbursts, which also appear to have continued, for a long time. You were right to leave the house since you cannot seem to change your behaviour.

So when are you going to change. I remember your screen name though not your story. Though no matter what the story is as I have pointed you both complain but never Really change. Sitting on the sofa you face buried in the computer her eyes glued to the TV screen is not UA time.

What it is, is WI time. We ignore time. Needs will not get met that way. Nor issues with being left out by her family can be handled that way as well.

Having a zillon posts on MB then staying away till an eruption happens is the Mt Vesuvius approach relationships.

Running to stay in a motel is the equivalent of spiting oneself. I'll show my WW. I'll leave the comfort of my home and kids and waste money in a motel.

Issues are there, and they are ignored, till someone erupts. Even if you felt the need to not need any more weekly counseling it is apparent that the both of you need a monthly tune up instead of build grudges.

Forgot to talk about the movie choice. There are a lot of affair movies.

Silver Lining Play Book, I would think BH's would find reminders of his WW affair upsetting though they would like the movie because even though there are painful reminders in the movie.

This BH got to beat the manure out of the OM and got a big upgrade in the woman department. His life took a bad turn in the movie. He then turned it around.

You need to find the right course to steer your life to.

Ok, just so I have this straight. If I'm downstairs on the computer doing her schoolwork for 45 minutes while she's upstairs watching TV, that is NOT neglect. But, one that's done and I'm on the computer for the next 45 minutes helping my brother with a job by submitting his resume to 5 places while she's upstairs watching TV, then that's neglect. Gotcha.

150 hours a week I spend running the household the kids helping her with school and try to drag her out of bed get her to stop wallowing in the past she just cries about being ruined, hates her job, never plans anything for us or rarely wants to go out....and the 2 hours this week she shows any life, I'M neglecting HER because I'm on the computer doing her schoolwork and submitting apps...just too confusing.

Good job on the smart-arsed sarcasm! Good way to expend your energies and use your intellect! How has that worked for you? Where are you now?

Not sarcasm at all. Sincere confusion. I can't continue dealing with the mood swings, the depression, the hating the job...and no effort to fix the problem or brainstorm solutions...she's just too busy with grad school. When I walk away so frustration doesn't lead to anger...when I step out when I am being verbally attacked, when I remove myself from a situation to let the adrenaline dissipate as I read and listened to to avoid AOs, again I'm attacked. Its disheartening, and I really believe there is a disconnect with the situation I live with and the feedback on this forum....trying to stay sane in the presence of mental health issues. That's all.

You were told about a million times on this thread that you needed MB coaching to get you out of your trap. You were neither of you capable of mustering the motivation to do this programme on your own. What you wrote above proves that you could not re-train your behaviours without help.

Mental health issues need mental health solutions. What did you and your wife do to seek solutions?

Abandoning your wife and kids because she has untreated mental health issues is unequivocally wrong.

I can only control me. I can't force her to refrain her brain, or change behaviors, or seek professional help. When I follow the advice in the readings and audio about removing myself from a situation PRIOR to frustration leading to an AO, that is a changed behavior. It is difficult to have a calm discussion, disagreement, it negotiate when the other person is so highly emotional.

What did I do to seek solutions? Well, I: spent the summer finding new doctors in our area. I found a new one for her. I established us new patients. I transferred our records over. I set up the initial appointment. I took her to the appointment. I set up ALL followup appointments. I reschedule all the followup appointments that she cancels/wont go to because of work or school. U drive her to all said appointments. I arranged for her prescription and all subsequent refills of the estrogen they put her on. I was the one "in charge" of appointments with our therapist...I urge her to go, she doesn't. I've tried to make appointments, but its often 'inconvenient' for her with work and school. I've set up appointments with her primary and taken her; she rejects the notion of taking ANY meds for anxiety, etc. I created a resume for her...i scour the ads every day and submit resmes foe her to get her out of this job she hates so much. I can't get her to do volunteer work it sign up for a yoga class or whatever because she's either 1. Too tired from work or 2. Too busy with grad school, which finally ends in may. I just finished helping her compose, edit, format, and complete a 26 page paper. That's what I've done for every course since she started in 2011...I am doing whatever I can whenever I can to help her earn this degree, which she labelled a "void" in her life. That's what I do.

If your wife has mental health issues and won't manage them, that is on her. No one can force her to.

I will be honest. i have always thought your wife was a bit of a drama queen, constantly bemoaning the cosequences of HER affair. I think in response you have taken on the martyr role and it is coming back to bite you. It is not your job to complete her grad assignments. If she isn't capable of that then she's likely not worthy of getting the degree in the first place.

It's important to her - LET HER FIGURE IT OUT.

Decide on your boundaries and enforce them.

But be clear whether this is just a tantrum, or a sober decision to end the marriage.

She takes her estrogen each day...cries a lot about work (wanted to ask a question about that, but guess that'll have to wait) wallows/discusses the past a lot, her mistake, shame, will she ever 'shine' again, etc. Talks about just ending her life...Always looking back to 2010, never on a better today or tomorrow...very difficult situation to be happy in or motivated in...

I feel Like I'm the only one rowing the boat most days, thus going in circles...

It was not up to her to decide who to share this story with...it us up to us. That was IB, and it is humiliating to know people WE decided would not be told were told by her.

Why is your brother not doing this?

Even if you have a special needs brother you are not needing to do this every night.

Yes it is IB.

What have you and WW been doing to address the IB behavior?

Whatever it is it appears nothing or your are both working on it independently. Which is not working for you.

Wife is like an addict. Her sickness/addiction must be cured first before she can be a good wife. She needs to recover her mental health.

Because I'm a good guy. His computer is not hooked up as he recently moved. I have been helping him with the full knowledge and support of my wife. I submitted 4-5 resumes in 45 minutes then went directly upstairs to W who was in bed watching TV. We still could've done something but a I get when I ask what she wants to do is "I don't know...I don't care"....I'm just tired, or depressed, or whatever it is at that moment...

Maybe it really is time to fess up and just dissolve this thing...I tried, maybe not my best, but whatever I got, but it didn't work. Recovery is not guaranteed even with an honest effort.

Stop spending time sacrificing running the household.

When are you guys going to talk to Dr. Harley?

HFD, if you take years to get going on this stuff, your wife will lose interest. Happens every time.

Boy, I'm confused - I thought exposure of an affair was a good thing.

You're supposed to follow the recovery program to get your needs met - not beg for it.

What happened to all that stuff we told you guys to do earlier this year? Wasn't that something like five months ago? When are you guys going to contact Dr. Harley and get help actually following the program?

If you're not following the program, her needs won't be met - begging her to meet your needs anyway despite NOT setting up an environment where she will feel like doing that is simply begging her to go through a massive love bank withdrawal.

And you call the police every time she does this, right? Or do you just ignore the advice this forum gives for that situation?

Yes, it is. Go watch TV with your wife. It's clearly where she wants you. Maybe if you're there she'll turn the TV off and meet your needs.

One night is not a big deal. Either your WW is exaggerating your PC time. Or you are understating your PC time and your on it every night and your UA time suffers.

For the last time -- HFM sanctioned, approved, encouraged, POJA'd, gave permission...whatever verb you want, that AFTER I finished helping with HER grad work, I could work on my brother's apps.

Then, apparently, at some point she changed her mind while watching tv upstairs and then had an AO when I got up there about being 'too busy on the computer".

We have all the LB program materials -- markos, I feel we only "do" MB instruction or contact Dr. Harley when it's convenient for HFM, which only occurs between semester breaks most times. She hasn't finsihed LB book we got over the summer becasue she put it down once the Fall semester started. Past practice dictates she'll look at again after December 8th or whenever the semester ends...and we better hurry up and finish before January 18 when the spring semester begins.

She does not utilize, read, or otherwise look at this website or the forum AT ALL -- after her last go around here, she stated she wouldn't be back because posters were "too harsh" to her...Once in awhile she'll suggest a question for the forum or Dr. harley (like the pressing one we have about her work right now), but the expectation is that I'LL be the one posting it.

I feel she exaggerates ANY time that I'm away from her -- frustratingly most of the time AFTER we'd POJA it!!!

And, markos, while not alway perfect,I still listenn to the show and read and reread the article on "negotiating with an emotional person". I worj Dr. Harley's strategies for not approaching an AO...but I feel SHE has not done anything to change the behavior from going 0-60 when there is a difference of opinion between us...

I can't juggle with one hand...

Did you ever contact Dr. Harley?

BH,

If I remember correctly we did...my recollection isnt great right now, but I think I did and got some solid pointers, especially for eliminating AOs.

Need to contact him again regarding W's work--

We need to know about Dr. Harleys stance on the workplace:

1. can a FWS EVER return to the place where an affair took place, the "scene of the crime", even if the AP is no longer there?

2. Guidelines for a job in the POSs county...geographic county of residence, bit not in any proximity to OPs (assumed still) residence?

I don't think it's encouraged to return to the scene of the crime...

And it's best not to have a job anywhere near them, for NC's sake. Just my thought.

Dad, have you considered ending your marriage? I just don't think these questions should be a concern at this point in your lives, if there is true recovery in place. I am concerned that there is more to your story than we are hearing. Please contact Dr. Harley right away.

Marital,

I apologize for not wrapping more context around the questions, as I am just generally curious about Dr. Harley's answer to both.

There are job prospects that opened up for HFM at two local hospitals...better pay, better hours for the family, less hostile work environment.

One job is at HFMs old hospital, where the affair began. It is a huge trigger obviously and while they are offering to bring her back, HFM has no desire herself to return to the scene of the crime.

I think I've read Dr. Harley discuss that at a workplace, one of the APs MUST leave...that its not a necessity that the WS leave, but that they simply cannot work together for recovery to work...it seems from reading so many stories on the forum, even if the AP leaves, the WS ends up leaving that workplace at some point, but not always. Just curious what the policies are for a FWS who remains in a workplace after the AP has left, or policies regarding a FWS returning to a workplace years after the affair has ended.


The second job prospect is more the focus: again, better pay, hours more conducive for the family (PT rather than FT), less hostile environment, etc. She is there now for only 4 Fridays for her grad school clinical, her university assigned her there; they've been impressed with her work and have discussed her joining their team.

This hospital is located in the same geographic county as the POSOM...but different region of the county. HFM would not be driving anywhere near the POS (assumed its still?) address...not on the way, won't pass it, etc.

Does that do anything to the 'odds' of a chance meeting? They met at her hospital in OUR county that was out of POSOMs home county.

I hope the backstory helps.

Thank you, and it is nice to hear from you.

You're contacting Dr. Harley, correct? Let us know when you hear back from them.

Have you explained yet why YOU are the one doing HER schoolwork?

BH -- yes, we are. Will do.

DB -- I don't do it FOR her, I just assist her WITH her coursework. Why? Because she's my wife, I've been through grad school already, and, being an English teacher, I am very, very good at writing and writing instruction.

Basic PoJA applies. She is not enthusiastic. Neither are you, presumably.



I'd think the odds of him chancing to work there or even visit there would be fairly high if he was in that field and lives in that area.

The POSOM is a carpenter who works in a union. So he's like a free agent who can be sent any jobsite in the greater tri-county region.

Makes it difficult -- feel penned in -- do we live our lives in a bubble because he can work for a general contractor anywhere?

This absolutely sucks because of the restrictive feeling it creates.

MOVE, DAD. This is Dr. Harley's advice for the situation you are describing in this post.

Okay, now you know she is not enthusiastic about this, so don't do it again.

Write down her AO on a worksheet and give it to her for the week - she will probably not respond well, if at all, at this point, but it is imperative that you let her know this is a problem for you. It is imperative that you complain.


If you guys are not getting UA time in due to school, then you need to let her know you are not enthusiastic about school any more. Independent activities need to end until you are each other's favorite recreational companions.

Meantime, you need to keep the problems on the front burner. Any time she is demanding, disrespectful, or angry == worksheet. Get those complaints to her.

AND, you need to keep up your own efforts to meet emotional needs and avoid love busters. Are you going through the things Dr. Harley lists about affection, daily? Do you talk to your wife through the day?

I know just what it is like to have a wife not engaged with the program. You turn it around by continuing to respectfully complain and keep the problems on the front burner while making every effort to meet emotional needs and avoid love busters.

How badly do you want your marriage to succeed?


If she's down on the forum I suggest going straight to Dr. Harley. I was hoping a long time ago you guys would get into the coaching program so you'd have direct access to him as well as the coaching from the MB office to hopefully keep you on track. It sounds like you guys let the rest of life take over and then you show up here when things finally get to a breaking point, instead of keeping at it daily.


It's not an exaggeration to say she's not enthusiastic about you spending thattime that way any more. Even if she's expressed it disrespectfully, it's going to be vital for you to get that message (rather than getting emotional and missing it).


I'm sure she hasn't - and it's not likely to get better till the things above get addressed. If there's no UA time, if you let the problems slide off the front burner, if you're not making all the other efforts to meet emotional needs and avoid love busters - then this isn't going to work. If she's not enthusiastic GET DR. HARLEY'S HELP. If you want to keep your marriage, this is too important to let it go on for months and years without making sure you're addressing it exactly the right way.

BTW, if you're facing what looks like a hopeless situation and you don't see any solution --- antidepressants. Trust me.

They did move, but helpformom doesn't like her new job and wants to go back to her old job.

Okay, to clarify a few things:

1. HFM does NOT want to return to her old place of work -- too painful, too many triggers. It was I in my curiuos, overthinking manner simply wondered Dr. Harley's take on a FWS retuening to a workplace years after...after the affair and AP are done, gone. The main focus here is the possibility of a new jo that is located in the POSOMs county, and what are the limits we place on choosing a work environment, hours, salary (all things that would be to the benefit of our marriage and family), limits "dictated" by the life of the OP?

2. We want to literally MOVE -- not just jobs, but move outta this state. But not until our youngest graduates high school in 3.5 years. The kids have been through enough since 2010; we are not going to subject them/him to uprooting his life now. It wasn't his fault, he's not going to suffer consequeences for us.

3. We are aware that grad school has been a huge UA buster -- most likely slowed if not hindered our resovery time. But we're at the point now where HFM has one semester remaining; she'll be finished in May. I feel we now have to suck it up and finish. FWIW -- it's a complaint of hers about grad school/UA time...we were wrong to let it go for so long through her program, but now she's only 7 months from being complete...

4. We had a meaningful and solution-creating discussion regarding confusion over computer time.

5. The note about anti-depressants is important and under consideration by us both.


Markos, a general side note for you:

Isn't there any point where a line in the sand gets drawn 'against' the POSOM regarding rearranging OUR lives for his part in this? Is there any moment to feel empowered that a couple in recovery are not going to allow the OP to have power over or dictate the lives of a FWS/FBS? I understand there are consequences to an affair, but do those consequences ever become so...spiteful or burdensome for the recovering couple, rearranging their entire lives in reaction to the evil actions of the OP? After creating a new romantic marriage, and EPs, and just compensation...feels like decision of the recovering couple now revolve around the OP, giving that person too much "power" over them, no?

...I hope that made sense..

So if moving turns out to be mandatory to fix your marriage, you still won't do it because it'd be better for the kids to live through the disintegration of their parents' marriage than to suffer consequences?

My dad switched high schools his senior year, and maybe a couple of times before that. I think he turned out okay and wasn't too severely traumatized.


Maybe I'm not getting it, but if you're still even mentioning OM at this point that sounds like a problem to me.

MB is not all about rearranging your life in reaction to the affair. Unfortunately it sounds like most of the other material is being left out here.

But you haven't done that stuff, yet. It's all on hold, for reasons you've described above. And I repeat my earlier comment:
"if you take years to get going on this stuff, your wife will lose interest. Happens every time."

No matter how badly you want that to be true, you can't make it happen. He already has, and he will continue to do so.

The best thing you can give him is parents with a strong marriage. Not high school years.

The marriage is not disintegrating...although we've had some self-inflicted wounds: eliminating my AOs, decreased UA time due to grad school, no forthright solution to depression/anxiety concerns.

We've POJAd that -- we're simply not movinguntil the kids are out of high school (our oldest is a senior; youngest in 9th).

The only reason why we're mentioning "it" is becasue "it" is a consideration when pursuing new jobs in the area...it's like whack-a-mole...the POSOM could turn up anywhere, really, working for a union...commercial, residential, doesn't matter. So what to do?

Is it not just as important for HFM to be working in an environment that is not hostile and a CAUSE for her depression, anxiety? Is it not just as important for HFM to know if she goes back to ANY hospital, what EPs are in place, procedures god forbid POSOM were to somehow -- my luck -- be assigned there by the union...and HFM agreeing that should that ever happen, she's leaving that workplace immediately?

Please know I, we are struggling here for a viable solution...I am NOT asking out of sarcasm or petulance...

Thanks, markos.

I know you are looking for an answer here, but instead you have provided one... and the question is;


Why does Dr. Harley recommend that people move SEVERAL STATES away after an affair?


What you have going on is like a vet with PTSD electing to remain for any amount of time in the middle of the warzone, and attempting how to find normality again.


The plain and simple fact is, you can't find normality in such proximity, because these types of questions will continue to pop up.

What if you decide to remodel your kitchen? Due to proximity...


You get the point!


Until BOTH of you prioritize your MARRIAGE, these things will remain in a holding pattern until your marriage disintegrates.

That is a sacrifice strategy. You don't want to help with her homework, and she doesn't want you working on your brother's applications. So, you both sacrifice in a trade. That is not following POJA. It is no wonder that your LB balances are so low.

Dr. Harley has just written an entire book on this subject; He Wins, She Wins. Get this book and read it. Both of you need to change your problem-solving strategies.

Mr. E:

Thank you for the suggestion; I will purchase that book.

HHH,

Thank you as well for your note. Moving is simply not an option at this time. It just isn't feasible. Outside of that, it looks like there are no other good options, but only the 'best' of the bad options, or however that saying goes...

Have a good Monday.

Markos,

To one of your earlier posts:

Why are you alluding to HFM's self-exposing to her sister as a 'good thing' when it was IB and violated our POJA?

Thank you.

Problem is you refuse to move so no matter where you draw a line in the sand the OM's affair with your WW will always come into play.

Using that your child is half way through 9th grade as a reason to not move is pure horse manure.

Our children have suffered enough consequences due to the affair.

Adding one more by uprooting them (him) from their home, neighborhood, friends is not one we're going to add to the ones already done to them through no fault of their own.

I understand your reluctance to relocate; however, please leave it on the table, because moving can be a real beginning for a marriage in trouble.

Your child may suffer a bit in the short-term, but in the long-term, with parents who are in love with each other and a stable family environment, it will not be detrimental to the child at all.

My father was military, and we had to move multiple times over my childhood. Both of my sisters moved just before their senior years. In the short-term it was pretty tough. In the long-term, because my parents had a great marriage and kept family traditions each place we moved, the moves had very little detrimental effect on us.

Before D-Day, I couldn't imagine moving, not in my wildest dreams. But we moved with my H's job, and it turned out pretty fine. Better than we could have imagined. We discovered that where we live doesn't matter anymore. All that matters is that we are together and that we are in love with each other.

Moving away has been so very successful for recovering marriages that it really does outweigh the disadvantages to the children.

dad, there are some things that should just be done in general, and exposure is one of them. We don't fault a betrayed spouse for exposing an affair even though the wayward spouse is typically not enthusiastic.

Why would you feel that your wife exposing her own past affair is a bad thing? That would typically serve to make her more accountable.

Long Way:

Because of my moms divorces, I too moved alot as a child...and I know kids can generally be rather resilient.

And HFM and I have legitamately discussed getting out of Dodge ASAP -- but that is after high school. The education is too great -- one of the best districts in the state, even the nation. In the long term giving him (them) this educational foundation wil be for their benefit.

It will happen, it is on the table, but now is not the time.

Markos,

I guess I was bothered becasue it is something that we poja'd to NOT do...or, if we were going to do it, it would be together as a united front, exposing the ugly truth as partners, not IB.

If I should be seeing this as a good thing, then, I will accept your insights and let it go.

thanks.

It's my personal feeling that it is impressive that she would expose herself. To me that shows a willingness to be accountable.

If you feel like she misrepresented things you might go follow up with the relative she exposed to, but I would doubt that would be necessary this far down the road.

Markos,

I actually think it was a trigger for me -- stupidly, perhaps -- because it reminded me of the many times she told me she talked to the OM about "ending it", but I never seemed to be around for those phone calls...always happened when I wasn't present and I had to just "take her word" for what she told the OM.

So, I am wasn't worried about protecting an image or anything...only triggered a bit because it seemed like another important phone call that I wasn't there for, and had to take her word for what she told her sister, and it was a painful reminder.

I asked HFM what she told her sister, and she highlighted the details of the conversation and it was pracically everything and that if I doubted her she would get her sister on the phone with me to tell me what she told her.

It's all done and over.

Are you back home now?

SC,

Yes, I am.

And I thank you for your concern.

I think you need to achieve consistency in working MB. You can't carry on sacrificing and accepting up whatever you don't like, which only sets up the expectation that you are owed, and then blowing up and even walking out, only to start over. Each fight takes a tremendous toll on both love banks that is harder each time to work back from. I know this from experience.

You so badly need a coach.

Kids have gone on to do well in college from average and even poor schools. You place too much importance on the school then the students effort.

I've been an educator for 21 years, and a parent for 17.

I am aware how much and what importance an education has on a student.

I'd prefer you not to make judgements or assumptions about the level of importance I choose to place on my own children's education.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts nonetheless.

I can't remember, but why can't you do the online program?

Agreed.

Another thing that stuck out at me is the fact that your W won't stop talking about the affair. That is such a huge lovebuster and you two are never going to really move forward in R as long as your W keeps doing this. I really think she could benefit from the help of Dr Harley on the private forum as well as the accountability coach on this issue.

I have asked her to get back on here...maybe speak with fifteen years amd mr. W, who were FWW, I think.

She doesn't talk of the A per se...or the OM...it seems just always hammering herself for her choices, her shame and humiliation.

For me, enough is enough...maybe I processed it or got that out of my system earlier or more effectively, I don't know.

I'm known to say often to HFM Pep's mantra about "not wasting time hoping for a better tomorrow" and something Mel or Marital say about focus on the wide open front windshield and NOT the small, limiting rear view mirror...

but ultimately she has to decide not to go to the dark places and not feel things about herself that applied to a person she was 3 years ago that doesn'exist in our current marriage.

Emailed my workplace question to Dr. Harley yesterday (mbradio...).

Once I get a response I will certainly share it here.

I knew what you meant and this counts as bringing up mistakes of the past. And I think your W will need an accountability partner to help her stop doing this. It has become a bad habit at this point...and history has shown she is not able to stop this on her own.

BTW, today's radio show would be a good one for your W to listen to. This was discussed and Dr Harley specifically addressed to be thinking about whether you are making LB$ deposits with your IC.

He said exactly what you described above was a big lovebuster and was to be avoided.

Umm...that's the same thing, Dad. She's just wording it differently.

If Mr. Bliss continued to talk about the affair - even obliquely - for YEARS AFTER THE FACT - I would have to seriously consider my relationship with him. I've told you this many times before; she needs to (forgive me for being direct) SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT THE AFFAIR!!! It's DONE! That includes her shame, her humiliation - all of that.

My concern for you is that she seems to feel the need to keep the emotions that she experienced - during and after the affair - alive. She doesn't seem to have traded those for the emotions that come with true recovery. Dr. H talks about "Secondary Gain" here:


She needs to stop. I have told you that for, geez, how many posts? I think it is critical that the two of you get on the online program. You need Dr. H to keep directing your marital ship. Right now it appears to be rudderless.

Yes, it seems we need to do so.

Thank you!

Okay, Dad. This response isn't good enough. What this response tells us is that you agree that you need to consider online counseling. You've been talking about the idea of seriously considering the concept of the possibility of the theory that you might at some point in the future maybe not today but maybe later tomorrow, you might just consider to think about counseling with Dr. H. I'm looking for your post that tells us that you are actually counseling with Dr. H.

Actions, not words, sir.

Marital,

I got nothing.

HFM and I both agree we need the online program...want to do the online program...but we haven't made the time to do so.

Working, kids, grad school eats up most of our time...it's hard enough getting our 15 hours of UA time (I estimate we're getting maybe half of that a week). So carving out additional time is a challenge, a challenge we've allowed...

While I'm very proud of HFM for earning an advanced degree, I can't wait until the grad program is over...and I can't wait to move out of this place...

And I need the email for Dr. Harley.

I sent en email to him regarding the HFM workplace question we had, but haven't heard back.

I'm hoping I used the correct email address.

Thanks.

The Help Family Priorities:

Working
Kids (CAN NOT move a kid for the next three plus years)
Graduate School - more important to finish the degree than repair the marriage. Whatever happened to taking a semester/year off?

Farther down the list: UA time

Last on the list: Online counseling.

Apparent where this marriage is headed. Down, not up, with the accompanying grinding of teeth and wringing of hands. Sorry, I don't see hope for the future in this marriage.


AM

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

If you don't hear back from them within a week notify the MODS and let them know.

BH,

That's the address to which I sent the email; I'll give it until Monday to hear back before notifying the mods.

Thank you.

The Harley's have been notified.

HelpForDad,

Please send your email again.

Does anyone out there know how to "save" a radio broadcast?

Or, know how to save and send me a link to yesterday's radio show, 10/29?

Thanks much!

I can't even access the rebroadcast of yesterday's show from my work computer...

Any other suggestions for getting a link to to be able to listen/save yesterday's broadcast for us to listen to?

Thank you!

Once it goes in the archives, it can be linked here but that takes a few weeks. I don't know how else to do it unless you can download it to iTunes.

that's what I thought...shoot!

well, the kids have an i-something or other, so I'll see if they can help the old man download it...

Thanks!

Check your email again.

Will do...

Thank you!!!

Read the email from the Harley's...but I missed the 12 noon deadline for listening or saving the recording of the show from 10/29 when they addressed the workplace issues that HFM and I have. (becasue I couldn't access it from work computer; by the time I got home from school, it was past noon...).

Any ideas?

BH, any chance you saved it?

Thanks :-)

I have it on my list to post as soon as it hits the archives.

BH,

Thank you.

I have some wonderful people at mbradio who already sent me a copy of the rebroadcast this weekend.

I appreciate it, BH, and hope you're well!

Fantastic. I probably will post it on your thread when it hits the archives, so others whom are following your thread can listen. If that's ok with you?

Absolutely!!!

Thanks, BH.

Radio Clip of helpfordad's question
Segment #2