Bottom Line Up Front:

Are there circumstances where it is ok to allow the WS to communicate sporadically with the OM? Dr. Harley's concepts appear tried and true, but it seems by following the no contact rule, my WS will always have a space in her heart for the OM. I want him out. I think allowing her to see him in the light of day will help her to see the man he really is and be over him because of it.

The Whole Deal:

Well, I read Dr. Harley's, Surviving an Affair, and as much of the articles and posts her on MB as I could. I didn't just want to post my story right away even though I really wanted to vent.

Twice now my wife (of 15 years) has cheated on me, the first time when I was deployed, and just recently when I had to move to an new duty station 2 months before my family (while the kids finished the school year).

Both experiences were the most painful in my life. I have tried to find words to describe the pain, but fail every time. It was the most horrible, gut wrenching, and inconsolable pain I've ever felt.

I'll move right past the first affair. The only take away is that afterward, there was a lot of fighting, apologies, and promises to do better. However we didn't really explore and repair what actually caused the affair. We certainly didn't read any books or draft up any Joint Agreements or such. BIG Mistake...That's why we are in the same mess again.

The second affair was harder for both of us. She actually "fell in love" with the OM, an anesthesiologist at the hospital she worked at. It was mostly an EA, but there was one night where she did sleep with him. During the later stages of the EA (post PA), she had already moved with the family to our new home. She was obviously VERY unhappy about our marriage but claimed that she wanted to work on it. As background, my last duty station was a sea duty, I was away half the time, and when I was home, I worked 70 hour weeks (so I think I can respect her being miserable, I was too). However, she really wasn't working on anything. She was completely stonewalling me on pretty much everything. She agreed to go to counseling with me and for a bit, things started to feel like they were working. We even went on a family vacation where we shared some of the best intimate time we ever had. Then BAM!, one day she just shuts down again and tells me about this man who she had feelings for at the previous location. Her words were, "I feel very deeply for him". Then comes the trickle truth...four days later, I knew everything. It made so much sense now why she was stonewalling...she had already fallen in love with another man and didn't want to give me the chance.

I was pretty sure I wouldn't be able to get past this one. The first time, she hadn't fallen in love, this time she did. After all the sacrifices we made for each other, how could she just spit in my face by doing this again?

She agreed to stop communicating with the OM and focus on fixing us. We both read Surviving an Affair and various other articles. With so much to work on, we focused first on radical honesty and UA, which is infinitely easier in my new duty.

The problem is that she is still holding on to the OM emotionally and she still has reservations about our future together...like there are still some walls up.

I know I went off the reservation a bit two days ago when I was traveling to my previous duty station. I wanted to meet the OM, and potentially forgive him (He was an older, lonely fellow, who felt really crappy about what he did). He of course didn't want to meet, said he was too ashamed to face me. That's ok, I expected as much. But I also wanted to give him the opportunity to contact my WS on a limited basis. She asked me for this, and even though it is completely contrary to Dr. Harley's process, I felt it was necessary for her to realize that she didn't actually love him. I wanted to force the death of the EA, which right now is on life support but she holds on, still living in the secretive fantasy of what she thought the relationship was. Letting her talk to this shameful, embarrassed, older man could be what she needs to realize what a chump he was. Anyway, after I tried to meet him, and he refused I emailed him. I told him my wife was suffering the loss of a good friend, and was emotionally devastated over the whole thing. And, I wanted to give her the opportunity to close the whole thing out by emailing him platonically on a periodic basis (I would monitor all communications). He responds that it might not be a good idea...FOR HIM. This guy is smart turns out...it's probably not. Later I showed these emails to my wife, hoping she will notice in every email he sent me, not once did he consider HER feelings, or address any remorse over the pain SHE was feeling. What I thought was a slam dunk, sort of turned out quite the opposite. She assumes that he didn't want to upset me by bringing her feelings up. She wants to think that he still cares deeply for her.

I just want her to realize that the dude got lucky. He found a beautiful young nurse that he could compliment and court. Someone to IM until all hours of the evening to fill his lonely hours. But as soon as he realized I wasn't giving her up...POOF!...he was ready to walk. How could she love a man like that? Further, how can she not realize the devastation she could have caused to the very good life we could have, and immediately lower all walls and jump into fixing our marriage. I'm ready to fix this thing, but something is still holding her back a bit.

Long way to ask a simple question I guess, but again:

Are there circumstances where it is ok to allow the WS to communicate sporadically with the OM? Dr. Harley's concepts appear tried and true, but it seems by following the no contact rule, my WS will always have a space in her heart for the OM. I want him out. I think allowing her to see him in the light of day will help her to see the man he really is and be over him because of it.

MadMindMonkey

Monkey;

Nope, total NC is the ONLY way to go.

Your wife is addicted to the high she gets off any contact with OM. The only way to treat addiction is to remove the source of the addiction completely... I.e., NC for life.

I wondered the same thing as you... Will my spouse still have love feelings for the affair partner in the future? For ever? I doubted I could live with that.

It is now one year post D-day for us, and now my fWH says he has no love feelings for OW. This has been a revelation to him, because throughout the A, and after D-Day, his heart ached for her. Though he doesn't hate her now, he has no interest in her.

He also says that without total NC, he could not stop himself from the addiction. No matter how much she spurned him, he could not get himself away. He HAD to go NC before he could get out from under the addiction.

We tried not going total NC for 5 months. It was disastrous. Total NC is the ONLY way forward, Monkey.

MMM, I'm sorry for the pain that brought you here to MB.

Here are the conditions for recovery after an affair:

1.) No contact for life with the adultery partner. What will happen is that, over time, as your wife agrees to NC and is held accountable by you for this, the love she holds for the OM will dwindle away. No contact is the only way to start recovery.

Continued contact with the OM, sporadic or not, will give your wife a fix of her addiction which will make it impossible for her to restore the love for you. Not only that, but contact in any form with him will be a terrible offense to you

2.) Extraordinary Precautions: integrated and transparent life together; no nights apart, shared passwords, accountability for time and money. ALL the conditions of the A must be eliminated.

Did you know that the profession your wife has selected has a high risk of adultery? If you and she plan for her to continue in her profession, she should find a position where she works with only women.

Your military career makes your marriage very high risk. Separations are terrible for even strong marriages. You should never be separated again.

3.) A program of recovery that will restore the marriage to one that is better, much better, than pre-affair.

You should continue to snoop and make sure your wife never contacts the OM again.

Are you being the absolute best man you can be right now? No love busters? Meeting your wife's emotional needs? Is your UA time a minimum of 15 hours per week, preferably more due to the fragile state of your marriage? Is your UA time the most enjoyable time of your week and your wife's?

You don't understand what you are doing, my friend. Does an alcoholic withdraw from alcohol by sitting in the bar and drinking on a "limited basis" or does he withdraw by staying out of the bar and abstaining from drinking? I assure you it is the latter. Every time she sees, emails or speaks to the OM, her feelings for him will be TRIGGERED. The affair will grow and thrive. Do you want that?

The way for her to overcome her feelings for the OM is for her to keep him out of her life and fill that VACUUM with something else. That something ELSE should be a romantic marriage WITH YOU.

The reason your wife has affairs [and she will have more unless you GET this and change the circumstances] is because you don't spend enough time with her and she has fallen out of love. That has left her wide open to fall in love with other people. She fell in love with the OM.

We can help you save your marriage, but you are going to have to put aside your own ideas of "recovery" and listen to us. Your ideas will lead to the certain death of your marriage.

Thank You for your insight.

1) I know that's the right answer. I do love her very much though and hate to see her in pain. She is very much like an addict in this affair. I ask myself if it would be ok to allow a quick fix, just to ease the pain of withdrawal? I know it's risky but I thought if I could act as the messenger for their communications, it would work. I guess that will just prolong (or completely derail) the recovery.

2) EPs. That one's harder. I have already committed to not being away anymore. It's sort of career suicide, but if I get orders to a job that will have us separated, I will turn them down. But I can't expect her to find a job in a specific environment. I would LOVE for her to not work in a hospital. She's extremely attractive, there is always flirting going on, doctor's with money to throw around, and IMO a general disregard for stable marriages (just doesn�t feed the gossip machine, I guess). She has made so many sacrifices to support me in my career, I just can't ask her to choose a job that is less affair prone. Actually, that would be a pretty big Love Buster for me to do that. I am trying to avoid anything that has the potential to build additional resentment on top of the sacrifices she has already made. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE for her to come to that conclusion herself, I just can�t push it.

As for the others, I believe (and she agrees when not clouded by the EA) I am meeting her emotional needs. Following the questionnaire, it turns out I need to work on recreational companionship, intimate conversation, and admiration. The companionship and conversation come pretty easy now that we are getting around 20 hours per week UA. They are my favorite 20 hours. She is being extremely and refreshingly honest, and I find that kind of hot. The admiration is hard. It's just difficult to admire someone who has intentionally and ruthlessly hurt me so deeply. I suppose I'll come around to that, once she completely kicks �what's his name� out of her heart.

I do need to do more work on the Love Busters. She has such deep resentment about the past, specifically my judgmental comments, that she immediately registers some of my openness and honesty as hurtful. If I'm not extremely cautious, I end up taking a withdrawal while I'm making a deposit. I hope that gets easier, I hate walking on eggshells. I think after a while she will realize I have no intention of hurting her anymore, but right now that's her first instinct.

I don't think you understand. She did love him. I think it is necessary for you to realize that. That's how the Love Bank works.

It is crucial in recovery for you to make love bank deposits and become the man she loves. That will be impossible if she still has contact with him.

Trying to re-educate your wife and get her to "realize" that her feelings were not what she thought they were is disrespectful and is a love bank withdrawal.

It is far more important for you to realize that she DID actually love him. Trying to invalidate her feelings is not a path to recovery, and it is actually disrespectful.

These will go away over time as you make love bank deposits. It takes awhile, it takes persistence.

It also takes a great attention to ELIMINATING love busters.

And it takes a great attention to making sure the time you spend together is enough, and really is enjoyable to her.

Can you give us an example of some of your openness and honesty that was hurtful to her? It is very easy to be disrespectful without realizing it. (You've already done it at least once on this thread!)

We can help you see if you are being disrespectful and learn to make your complaints in a respectful way.

It is best to stick to these formulas:

I would like it if you ...
I love it when you ...
It bothers me when you ...

Notice how every one of them focuses on the present and not the past, focuses on her behavior and not her feelings or motivations, and registers your feelings about her behavior.

My wife achieved all of that with no-contact. A couple of months after contact ended, as she became close to me again (thanks to my love bank deposits), she expressed how she had realized just what a loser and predator he was. But we would've been fine even if we'd never talked about it again.

It won't happen if you are making love bank withdrawals. It won't happen if you aren't spending enough time together. It won't happen if the time you spend together is not enjoyable enough for her. It won't happen if you fight.

MMM, that is a great place to start. You can't fill her lovebank if you are draining it with lovebusters.

In the meantime, there are very specific steps that must be taken in order to affair proof your marriage and prevent another affair.

1. expose her affair. Your family, close friends and children should all be told about her affair. If her OM is married, his wife should be informed. This should be done by you. The reason for exposure is this is one of the most important first steps towards recovery. The more people who know, the more people to hold her accountable and the more people to support you. Dr. Harley is a clinical psychologist with 40 years experience saving marriages and here is what he says:


2. send a no contact letter to this dirtbag. The letter should be written by her, approved by you, and mailed together. Additionally, I would suggest you contact him and tell him to never ever contact your wife again. I will post a suggested letter in the next post.

3. She needs to find another occupation that will not leave her vulnerable to affairs. This is an extraordinary precaution that is taken to avoid a future affair. For example, if she is a nurse, she can work in a female doctors office or some other environment where she is not tempted to have an affair. Her "resentment" is not the concern here.. The biggest concern is YOUR resentment if she continues to have affairs. Protecting you from repeat affairs is not negotiable.

4. I would read Dr Harley's article about forgiveness and his policy of just compensation: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Do you have Dr Harley's book, Surviving an Affair?

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Yes, you can and you SHOULD. Anything that is bad for your marriage should be eliminated. Her current working environment is bad for your marriage.

Wow! Thank you for your directness. This is why I posted. I need someone to smack some sense into me.

I will say that I feel confident that now that we are actually spending alot of time together, it has become very obvious to her why she fell in love with me in the first place. She is well on her way of getting back there (and hopefully further).

I like our odds, but just knowing that she will always have a place in her heart for him is tough. How many times today did she think of him? What did she think about? When the first affair ended, she hated the dude. I wish it was the same this time. I wish she could see how ugly a man has to be to engage a young, pretty wife of a deployed military man in an affair. Seems pretty unattractive to me. I feel like that would be pretty easy to realize what a loser he is. But I guess it's different in her addictive fantasy.

In time, if No Contact remains in place and you are filling her lovebank, she will not think of him at all.

This is part of why No Contact for life is crucial.

She cannot see him for what he is because he is a drug to her. She is addicted to him. He gave her a high.

She may come to hate him someday, when she is sober. She may come to see him for what a louse he is.

She might not.

And even if she doesn't, if you follow the program, you can STILL recover and have a better marriage than what you had before.

That makes sense. My "turning on the light" for her to see him as the world might, is very judgemental and invalidates her feelings. I won't do that again. Thanks.

At other times, I really can't give specifics. Last night we were talking and she just clammed up. I think we were talking about my emotional needs and she felt like a failure for not meeting some of them. I should have immediately stopped and thought about my exact words. If it happens tonight during our generally wonderful UA, I'll write them down and share. But it would be better if I just avoid the Love Buster in the first place.

Yes, start taking note of what you said when she clams up, and let us know specifically. If you were talking about your emotional needs, there's a very good chance you did say something that she finds disrespectful.

It is best to keep UA talk enjoyable. If you have an unmet need, it's best to follow Dr. Harley's program of exchanging weekly worksheets about those. This can help such a highly emotional topic safe, and keep it out of what should be a fun time for you both.

Ask her to write down your lovebusters for you. You need to know what SHE sees as disrespectful.

Ahh. I think I need to reread about UA. We are getting plenty of it but we are mixing fun stuff with more emotionally charged discussion. We sometimes notice how it's going great and all of the sudden it's weird. We've been able to recognize this and back away but it may be better to schedule a separate time to talk on subjecs specific to recovery. Problem is, I don't think I have 15 hours worth of non-emotioanlly charged topics to talk about. Maybe less talking and more doing is in order.

I wish I would have posted before I contacted the OM. Now I've got one more dragon to slay.

This will help.
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

Yes, it is. Schedule that time for once a week, and don't discuss the issues outside of that time. Keep the rest of your conversations light and enjoyable.

Intimate Conversation is essential for your wife to fall back in love with you, so the answer is not to do less talking. Instead, investigate her. Find out what she enjoys talking about, and spend your time discussing those things.

MMM, the first and most important thing to do is for her to cut off ALL CONTACT for life with this dirtbag. None of this will have any effect until that happens. She should have no contact of any type with him. And I would snoop on her to make sure contact has ended.

For example, you might want to put spyware on her cell phone to make sure there is no contact. A good spyware program is eblaster or flexispy. This will help you trust her faster when you can see that she is being faithful.

Great Link, Thanks.

I've read so much since D-day, and had so many uncontrolled emotions, that some of the good ideas got squeezed out by anger and confusion.

So I'll focus my UA on all the intimate EAs. Makes sense, since my wife tells me I cover all the other one's in glorious fashion. She also says I'm naturally an ace at SF. That was one of the reasons I was so blindsided by the affair in the first place. With me covering 7 of 10 so well, I had a hard time believing she would have an affair with a man who was only able to cover 2. But with me separated due to employment, she was able to soak up all the conversation and affection from the OM, his love bank skyrocketed and mine went belly-up. It's really just a math game.

Another point to consider. She has expressed concern that with all the UA we are giving each other (close to 25 hours a week), the kids are getting the short end. I believe the kids are pretty sturdy and the attention we cannot give them now will be repaid in spades when they can bring THEIR children to our fiftieth. Am I right on this? Or, is there any guidance on MB for maintaining a baseline level of family time.

Yes! The baseline level of family time is 15 hours per week. This is how Dr. Harley recommends a husband meet a wife's emotional need for family commitment. Spend the time together as a family, in a way that both you and she are enthusiastic about.

If she's talking about it, you can bet FC is an important emotional need for her.

The Love Bank is a very logical concept, isn't it? Dr. Harley's approach to falling in love makes perfect sense when described this way.

Marriages have two parts: Meeting needs and creating a romantic passionate marriage AND creating a barrier around our love banks so no one else can deposit love units.

In your absences, you were unable to meet most of her intimate emotional needs. That's why separations are so bad for marriage.

But it also takes Extraordinary Precautions to prevent an affair from happening. The Harleys have always had EPs and neither of them of has ever had an affair. We would all have affairs under the right conditions, but EPs make an affair virtually impossible.

Even when a marriage is great, a person can have an affair just by having ONE need met, while the spouse meets all the other needs.


Your children NEED for your marriage to survive, so your UA needs to be first and foremost. If there's time remaining, set that aside for Family Commitment time. These two priorities need to take precedence over any personal time for yourselves.

Have you exposed your wife's affair to your children? If not, you should do so, so they understand the tension in the home.

MMM, in recovery from an affair, you need to put all your focus on ending her affair, exposing it and affair proofing your marriage. THEN, all of your focus can go to creating a romantic marriage. I am concerned that you aren't responding to my posts outlining these steps. If you don't take these steps, you will be facing another affair. Your wife had an affair because your marriage was not affair proofed. Even if you eliminate every lovebuster and meet her needs PERFECTLY, she will have another affair if these steps are not followed.

Check out this article: here

I pretty much skipped over plan A and went straight to B (not knowing what they were) and would have sent her away with the worst possible memory of me, which is pretty much the OPPOSITE of plan B. I went upstairs to leave her with herself and checked on the kids. They were huddled in my son's bunk bed crying. You have to realize that in 15 years, I have NEVER done that. That was the kind of house I grew up in, but not my kids. I'm still embarrassed.

It actually bothered me at first that my daughter, who is 14, offered me no compassion for the obvious grief I was in. Writing this now I realize how unreasonable it would have been for her to offer me compassion...after the abuse I handed her mother. Both my wife and I have talked to her since, with no luck. She is avoiding even thinking about it...maybe that's just the teenager in her. I feel like she could be my greatest ally in keeping my WS honest. My wife really wants our daughter to respect her, and if my daughter was emotionally able to tell her mother that she is disappointed in her, there is no way she would consider the OM again. Anyway, I screwed that up big time.

It's unfortunate that I came to MB so late, as may commonly be the case. So, exposure was a complete bust but I think I'm grasping the rest.

Incidentally, when I told my WS to get the H*ll out of my house (I know, completely wrong), she called the OM twice that night and made plans to fly out to HI to be with him. She immediately reconsidered and sent a NC letter to him, via email. Not a MB endorsed NC letter, I had no input into it. She just sent him an email saying "nevermind" and "I've decided to put my family first" and "do not attempt to contact me, I won't return communication". I would have preferred some other things said, but it was done already. In a way this haphazard NC letter has contributed to the slow and painful death of the affair.

Are you monitoring her, MMM, to insure that there is no contact whatsoever? Even googling his name is contact, btw. Or looking him up on Facebook. Are you watching her activity?

Has she gotten rid of all letters, mementos, and pictures?

It is very common for wives and children to blame a husband for a wife's affair, at least for awhile.

As a teenager, I advise you to let her make up her own mind. By the time you succeed in getting your wife to fall in love with you again, you will probably have provided so much care for your wife that your daughter will be friendly toward you again.

I hear you Melody,

It does feel like I'm skipping over the some of the first steps.

As I posted earlier, I royally screwed up the exposure and NC letter. I came to MB late and don't know if I can go back to fix that stuff. It feels late and will take a huge withdrawal from the Love Bank.

For Example, I wanted to expose the OM to his employer. He is the head of anesthesiology at a major hospital. He's listed on the Hospital website as a "leader", yet he started an EA (later PA) with a junior subordinate, who was married with a family. From my perspective in the military, I guy in this position had better be exposed, that's completely unacceptable behavior. Well my WS basically said if I did that, we were over. In hindsight, that was probably wrong to fold under those demands. And I really didn't fully understand the MB concept regarding exposing the OM to his employer and potential for him to do this to another nurse in the future. It seemed like I should only do that if the WS refused to leave the job. She has left the job. We live 4000 miles away now, so I think I'm done there. It just torques me that she made such a fit about not exposing him and I caved.

I'll respond to affair proofing. I will talk to her tonight about her next job. She is actually job hunting now and I will insist that she eliminates possibilities which put her in a risky atmosphere, we both know what that means for her. I have to consider electronic tracking for communications. Like I said, we live 4000 miles away from ground zero, and that louse doesn't care enough about her to come visit. And, the entire EA was online; it only turned physical on the night of her going away party where the good doctor was buying her and her girlfriends drinks (he was the only guy around a handful of nurses at a strip club). He of course, being the good guy that he was, was not drinking so that he could get her safely home. Turns out, it was his home, not mine...the rest is history.

Monitoring the electronic communications is scary hard right now. I've got three computers, several tablets, and everyone has smartphones. They all have different apps which I don't know how to track. Heck, the first evidence of a relationship with him was her messaging him in the game "Words with Friends" on her phone. I saw it by accident months ago and she shrugged it off as he's just a friend. I told her I didn't like it and she stopped playing with him. Of course I had no idea at the time they had already slept together.

My point is, I check cell/text records, I have her email go straight to my phone, I have all her passwords, but she duped me again. And, I consider myself a smart guy. The first affair, she was a noob, The evidence was sitting there in her "deleted items" folder on MySpace (five years ago, I know). This time, she was so devious I missed everything. I mean really� messaging on "words with friends". I'm working this, but you have to appreciate my frustration.

I will say that I believe her when she says she hasn't contacted him since D-day. I spend quite a bit of time snooping to convince myself of that.

And I immediately regret considering allowing her to contact him. You and the fine folks at MB have fixed me. I will tell her tonight that I changed my mind. I hope I'm alive tomorrow.

MMM, I want to echo this and emphasize it for you. You and your wife need to make your marriage safe from future affairs. Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? This is your CRUCIAL guide. Don't skip it. Dr. Harley explains that you and your wife need to take Extraordinary Precautions to make an affair impossible.

Let me give you an equation we pass around here:

Unmet emotional needs + NO Extraordinary Precautions = AFFAIR
Unmet emotional needs + Extraordinary Precautions = NO affair
Met emotional needs + NO Extraordinary Precautions = AFFAIR
Met emotional needs + Extraordinary Precautions = NO affair

If extraordinary precautions are not established, all of your work to rebuild a romantic relationship will be for naught.

Get rid of the smart phones. She cannot be trusted with one.

One of her EPs needs to be "no more opposite sex friendships."

Do ya'll have Facebook?

She was a very capable liar (only with regard to the affair), she did not keep anything. Heck, she was always asking things like flight reservations, and stuff we ordered from Amazon. I would tell her, check your email. She was so nuts about deleting evidence of the affair, she deleted EVERYTHING!

She did keep a necklace he gave her. When she first moved to Virginia, I asked about it. She said her friend Debbie gave it to her. It was a relatively simple piece, so I believed it. During the trickle truth, she told me it was actually from him. She said she threw it away but I would have rather her have given it to me to pawn. I would have sent the cash to him in the NC letter. Worst part is, she wore that necklace everywhere, right out in front for the world to see for a month. I'm still running across very special photos of her and me together, her brandishing that stupid necklace.

And don�t get me started on Facebook, she defriended him but she's got friends that have pictures of them together (as friends of course, and in group shots). If she wants to see them together, she can go to a number of places. I don�t think she is, but she could. Should I ask those individuals to remove the photos?

She has agreed to that. The only opposite sex friends are family friends AND we only see/communicate with them as a couple or on a same gender basis.

I hate facebook. We have it. MySpace was the vessel for EA #1, Facebook for #2. FB rules need to be part of the EMs as well. What are some thoughts? No account, Joint account, tracking software, can I get parental controls over her account?

Get the special photos photoshopped and toss any others.

Defriending him is not enough, neither is having friends remove photos. Facebook needs to be shut down and blocked.

No account, and no online games. We have already seen affairs here on this site from couples that had joint facebook accounts. Avenues of possible contact need to be blocked.

Thats perfectly fine. You can go ahead and send the letter. I would approach her on this tonight and tell her you need her to agree to NEVER EVER have any contact with him again and insist on the letter.


This is where I would start. SEnd an exposure letter to his employer outlining the affair. I would suggest you contact his wife earlier in the day and tell her all about the affair. Offer to give her the evidence you have, via email, etc, and most importantly, give her your wife's cell phone # so she can call her.

The only reason your wife didn't want you to expose is so she can continue her affair. Keeping it secret for them harms you all and you don't want to do that.

And DO NOT forewarn your wife of your exposure.



Perfect. She should not take any job unless you are genuinely, sincerely enthusiastic about it. That EXCLUDES any capitulation. Capitulation is a disaster for marriages and you cannot do that!


These are all holes that need to be closed. Obviously, she shuoldn't have a smartphone anymore and she certainly should not be playing WWF or be a part of any social networking. It would be a good idea to completely delete facebook and install a keylogger on your computer.


When was her last contact? FRom reading your post above it sounded like you were condoning continued contact.

MMM, I would pick up the phone this afternoon and call his wife and inform her of the affair. That way you can tell your wife about it tonight or tomorrow and that she can never contact that scumbag again.

You can send a formal letter to his employer tomorrow. Just check out my exposure thread for letter templates and best practices.

Additionally, that would be a good time to tell your kids and your close family and friends about the affair. How old are your kids?

fyi, exposure will have an amazing effect on her attitude about the affair. Today it is a beautiful, pretty fantasy with her loverboy. When you expose it, she will begin to see it for what it is through the eyes of objective observers. They will all be looking at her affair as about as "pretty" as 2 pigs going at it. When your kids ask her about her affair and she gets a call from this man's wife, it will be a huge wake up call to your wife.

See, keeping it a secret for her is to ENABLE the affair because affairs thrive on secrecy. All the fantasy evaporates when they are exposed to the light of day.

It is very much like bringing a crowd of people into the crack house to watch the crackheads get high. It is no fun to make a fool of yourself when people are watching you with disgust on their face!

I think I misread your post to say HE is married, but I see now you didn't say that at all. Is this POS married?

No, he's not. Twice divorced. Based on the timing of his first divorce and the age of his son, it's obvious he's cheated before. It's odd that this mathematical detail slipped my wife in his "open and honest" intimate conversation with him.

I didn't think of it that way. It's really easy to think we're on the right track since we both feel better and are really restoring our romantic love.

I need to talk with her about additional EPs I feel are necessary.

She was in the fog. "Openness and Honesty" and "affairs" simply do not mix. APs are rarely open and honest with each other. Once they start with the lying, it is very difficult to discriminate in who they are lying to. They are almost always "look better than you are" liars with each other.

I did say that. That was the reason for my post. I've since seen the light, and have changed my mind. Like it was said above, would I give an alcoholic a little shot of liquor?

She is going through withdrawal and even demonstrating some depressive tendencies. In my moment of weakness, seeing her suffer, I wanted to help her out. She said she just wanted to know general friendly things, like how his father was doing. This guy is a joke and I couldn't imagine her falling for him again through email alone. Anyway, I contacted the OM and told him if he met with me in person I would consider her request. He declined of course, but the door is still open. They have still not contacted each other as far as I can tell, and I have done some digging. He is really a louse and doesn't want her...way too hard of a target with me hounding around and too far away. She's the one that wants contact.

Well, I'm not having any of that. I was not satisfied by the NC email she sent. I will give him one of my own and copy her. It's not for him anyway, I already know he doesn't want to contact. She needs to know how that her contacting him, no matter the innocence of the discussion, is another smack to my face.

ok, thanks. But I would certainly expose him at work so he can't do this to some other man's family. It should also be exposed to your children, family and friends.

Did you see my comments about that?

MMM, I know you are worried about upsetting her, but that is ok. The goal here is to save your marriage and affair proof it from another affair, *NOT* to avoid her anger at all costs. Exposing this affair will catapult you into a new realm. Keeping it secret keeps her fantasy alive and sends the wrong message to the OM. He believes, and rightly so, that you will do nothing to stop him. He has been given the green light to pursue your wife. You can't have that. He needs to be sent a message that hell is coming his way if he EVER contacts your wife again. You can do that by exposing him at work and by contacting him and letting him know he should never ever contact your wife again or you will be suing that hospital for sexual harrassment. And you can do that!

Your wife is on affair #2. If you don't take serious, decisive steps to wake her up, I predict you will be facing affair #3. She needs a serious wake up call.

And she will respect you much more for that. It surely makes her sick and disappointed that you weren't willing to fight for your marriage before. A complacent approach conveys a lack of caring. And I know you do care about your wife. You just need to show her that.

Your WIFE must send the contact letter, written so that you approve it. ML posted one to you for her to write. If you write it, it leaves the door open for her to contact him. Makes you the "bad guy." SHE needs to write the letter to the creep with your approval.

This guy is her drug and she will fall for him through any kind contact, even email.

Gotcha!


Absolutely! No contact is not negotiable. And there is no such thing as "innocent" discussion." An affair is an affair is an affair. They can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig!

Prisca is right. She already did fall for this guy. That train has left the station.

Please read.
Read my Lips, No Contact Means No Contact

Also this.
Extraordinary Precautions

MMM,

(He was an older, lonely fellow, who felt really crappy about what he did)

No OM is not some fellow, he is a cold calculated predator who has made a sideline of spotting and seducing vulnerable women. His fellings of regret are a script he has honed over the years to keep himself out of professional and marital trouble.

Since OM is in a position of authority as a doctor you can threaten a lawsuit against the hospital or the doctors partnership if he is a member of one. You need to send a message to every one of his facebook contacts, along with his adult children and ex wives. Expose OM widely completely and without warning.

This is how Dr OM4 was with my W, nothing could have happened physically as he was so old, but after a lifetime of seducing nurses and the entitlement he felt as a Dr he had no problem emotionally involving my W without remorse.

God Bless
Gamma

Thank You for all the advise and for getting me on the right track.

The NC letter was sent, mostly in line with the provided template. I was agreeable to the terms. Absolutely No Contact. Included specifics as to HIS role in the matter and how he should know he is a dirtbag.

EPs are in place:
1. Her job search will be directed to facilities that do not put her at risk. [in progress]
2. I have all account passwords and all her email gets cc'd to my accounts.
3. I monitor for the generation of other accounts.
4. I have put administrative locks on browser history so I can monitor activity.
5. Her phone remains unlocked, I can review at any time.
6. No additional apps on her phone with messaging capability. I know there were recommendations to get rid of the smartphone, but her healthy relationships with other women is very important to me. They keep her honest. It's good to have allies.
7. NO MALE FRIENDS. PERIOD.
8. She will not participate in GNOs with women I do not personally know. And this will not be allowed at all for at least six months.
9. No mixed gender parties/gatherings that I am not present at. (This is how she was first approached by the OM).
10. Post nuptial agreement to be written. [working details, any ideas what to include here for Just Compensation?]
11. I've considered FB controls but still working on them. I think it can be a tool for me to communicate my feelings publically which she adores. And it can foster healthy friendships. Right now, I'm monitoring activity with a keylogger. One breach and it's gone. All other social networking blocked.
12. If OM, or ANY OTHER MAN, attempts contact, she will immediately break contact and inform me.
13. She will dedicate at least 15 hours per week UA time
14. She will use the POJA for all decisions
15. She will not share anything, with anyone (male or female), that she has not already shared with me.

To be fair, I have the same EPs in place. If an affair can happen to anyone under the right conditions, it can certainly happen to me.

We've been at this for going on a month now and I have absolutely no evidence she has contacted him, FB him, googled his name, or anything. And she is getting much closer to being over him. My initial desire was for her to hate him which is why I considered contact. She would find out pretty quickly he had no desire for her now that I was guarding her. He really is a slimy predator. But I agree, Compete NC is the only way to go, thanks for helping me see that. I see know that even if she has a tiny place in her heart of fond memories years down the road, as long as there is NC, there is no threat. Kind of like my HS crush, I still have a fleeting thought every now and again, but I share it with my WS so it doesn't consume me (and I would be a complete idiot to try and contact her, even with a standard Christmas Card).

Gamma,

I'm afraid you are more right than I ever considered until today. I checked the emails he sent me. They were beautifully scripted. He immediately threw himself groveling at my feet. All manner of "kissing up" to me. He said he thought I was a "great man", he's so sorry is not the same. What a load of baloney. He just doesn't want me to expose. Guess he thought wrong. I guess it's good that he's such a POS, I don't have to really worry about him contacting my WS again; he got what he wanted there, too much work to continue. I believe exposure will be to protect his next potential victim.

These are good EPs.

I would have all contact information changed so OM can't contact her.

Dr. Harley does not recommend Post nuptial agreements.

Extraordinary risky. She has already shown she can not be trusted with Facebook and her smartphone, and they should go. Your focus right now should be on affair-proofing your marriage and creating a romantic relationship together, not on fostering friendships.

Since she is on affair number 2, don't take the risk. Friends can wait.

Over the past few days, the following occurred:

1. NC letter was sent
2. EPs agreed to
3. Full exposure is done

I was afraid she'd shut down on me after it was all done, but just the opposite happened. Over the years, she felt I didn't value her, which I can agree I wasn't showing. By taking these aggressive steps to "win" her back, it just confirmed that she is more valuable than anything else in my life. Turned out to be a pretty powerful thing.

The fog of the affair is mostly over, she sees now what a ridiculous fantasy it was, and how the OM was taking advantage her and lying at almost every turn. As an example of her new found clarity, the other day she was changing the sheets on our bed and she remembered the night she slept with the OM, his bed was made. Up until that point, she thought "it just happened" or it was an "accident", now she knew he had planned all along to take her home to sleep with her. After all he is a single man that lives with his 13 year old son and the rest of the house was a disgusting mess, why would his bed be made? Maybe he just likes to make his bed, but most likely he had plans. She remembered he was the one buying her all the drinks and he was completely sober on the night her took her home. This might be TMI but I had a vasectomy years ago so she was not on BC. After the OM started his business, she remembered that she told him she was not on BC and it freaked him out. Let's just say he had a bunch of trouble...all that work for nothing. She says it was soooo bad. That's one reason it never got physical again, even though he tried. I call that poetic justice.

I'm not trying to be crass, I'm just surprised at how much she remembers after the fog lifted, and just as surprised at her complete honesty. She says being able to be completely honest about everything is a wonderful feeling. I returned fire with a few things in my past that I hadn't told her about before, specifically, the handful of times I went to strip clubs while overseas (now on my list of EPs). We've had so many open and honest exchanges over the past week that my head is spinning with delight...such a great feeling!

Once that fog cleared, she has really opened up. While she was in it, I couldn't get through AT ALL, and I tried everything. We are happily carrying out UA time every day, and it feels like we are really meeting each others EN completely. It's great to be married to this woman, I think now I'm just mad at myself for not meeting them before and for not having the EP in place after the first affair.

I am wondering if anyone has any pitfalls that we should watch out for. DD was four weeks ago. Is it too soon to feel this good? Where is my blind spot? I want to save this feeling between us.

I don't want to rob you of any good feelings. Enjoy the progress you have made so far. But (and you knew there would be a "but"), recovery is a looong process, measured in months and years, not days and weeks. Don't be disillusioned with setbacks when they come. They will come. You have the tools available here to deal with them.

Just a quick question. I finished "Surviving and Affair" and am looking for a good followup. Was thinking "Love Busters" since I think those are harder for me to avoid than meeting emotional needs (not easy, but easier). WW is willing to read anything I read.

Any thoughts?

Yes do not limit yourself to two books. Also get His Needs Her Needs as well.

Get both Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs. The Five Steps workbook has many very helpful worksheets that correspond to each LB and EN.

I would fill out the Marital Problems Analysis and start with the problems ranked #1. Here Any problems with LB need to worked on first.

Can you swing the Online Seminar? It's really helpful and you have access to Dr. Harley on the private forum. You also have a coach assigned to you that will provide accountability.

X2
The online seminar (and subsequent follow-up program) is ideal. You get a year-long program tailored to your marriage. You get the accountability coach who is available to assist you through the various steps and exercises. And you get year-long access to Dr. Harley via the private forum, for specific questions either of you have.

Could you do the recovery process yourselves, just by buying the books, without the extra assistance? Sure. But these resources are like training wheels, keeping you out of the ditch as you progress. And, the program structure helps you stay focused.

Because recovery is a hard road. Doable, but hard. Many people here say recovery is the hardest thing they've ever done. So give yourselves the best chance.

The online program package includes the books, "HNHN", "LB's", and the workbook, "Five Steps to Romantic Love".

Turns out, the answer to that is probably, no. Last night was pretty bad. We had been going good for the past few days, covering eachother's intimate ENs like champs and avoiding LBs.

I just can't get over the resentment. I feel like I know enough of the truth to move on but I'm almost obsessing over the entire crime. WS is adhering to the EPs and has not attempted (nor desires) contact with OM, who turned out to be a complete louse. I can be going along fine and...pop! There it is in my head...not the gross details of the affair, but all the lies and her complete and vicious disregard for the man she was supposed to protect with love. It's sickening still, and sometimes worse than D-day. The resentment doesn't seem to be fading and it's really making quite a roller-coaster of a recovery.

I read over the overcoming resentment article and would consider taking a mild anti-depressant for six months, but that kind of thing isn't allowed in my line of work. It's so messed up that military folks have to suffer such emotional tragedies on their own. Just seeing a psychologist can get me in trouble.

I know I'm early in the recovery and everyone says it's measured in months and years. While I understand that to be the case, I'm going bonkers in the meantime. I wish my brain would shut up and let me love her like I always wanted and know I can.

I think I better look into the seminar.

You need to follow all of the steps melody posted.
Dr Harley has made his program very clear: It is not pick and choose. It must all be done and not deviated from

MMM:

I commend your intelligence for recognizing your need for support.

The article on this website titled, "What is Marriage Coaching?" is valuable in outlining the difference between doing the recovery plan yourselves and getting assistance, either in the form of coaching, or the online program (which includes coaching).

You are on the emotional roller coaster now. Yes, this will get better.... eventually.... but you will have severe ups and downs for a while yet.

It is too bad that AD's aren't allowed in your situation. It will be tougher for you without them. But not impossible. Others here have managed without them.

About resentment: Dr. Harley says this is the LAST thing to fade. But it WILL fade. Meanwhile, prevent yourself from using it as a reason/excuse for selfish demands, disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts. This is DIFFICULT, and seems so unfair that we who have been betrayed should have to deal with our resentment without resorting to these expressions. Not only that, but we aren't even supposed to talk about the A!

My suggestion is to use this forum to vent. As you have discovered, people here have been in your shoes, and come out the other side (sometimes, much to their own amazement.)

You are entering the most rigorous training program of your life. Also, the one with the largest potential payoff... A loving, romantic marriage which supports everything you wish to accomplish in life, for you, your wife, and your family.

You can do this.

I know. I think I've take the required steps to ending/exposing the affair and affair proof the marriage. It's a long process and I'm checking constantly to make sure we are on the right track with keylogger, checking phone records, snooping, standing firm on EPs, etc. I thought I explained this in a previous post, but maybe I wasn't clear.

It took me a bit to get into the program, but I think I'm there (or close to it). I don't think I'm picking and choosing anymore. I believe in the program, it's making a HUGE difference. I just feer I don't have the endurance to get past the resentment. Anyway, working on that.

MMM,

Was the first affair ever exposed or resolved?

God Bless
Gamma

Yes, both. I don't have any resentment over that one. He was just some punk that was trying to have some fun with a woman while her husband was out to sea. She eventually saw right through him and never fell in love or planned on leaving me for him. A real turd. These kind of guys are in high numbers in military towns. Makes me sick when I think about these kind of guys thanking veterens for their service. If we ever reinstate the draft, I hope these guys are first to go.

MMM, if you will stick with this program, you will get over the resentment, BECAUSE you will effectively replace those feelings with a romantic passion in your marriage. If you don't do that, your resentment will grow.

MMM, this is spot on. I have struggled MIGTILY with triggers, resentment and just really bad feelings.

All the advice you are getting here is excellent and hits the mark. We are at 1yr 9mo's into R. It has and is an extraordinarily difficult process. Going into it, I knew it was going to be hard but I didn't know how hard.

IF you follow the program you should see improvements in your M month by month. Although these improvements might just be moving the needle inches at a time, forward progress is forward progress.

2-5 years is a lot to wrap your head around but it is real timeframe to R. Trust in the program was all I was able to hold onto at certain times. It absolutely works though.

MMM, catching back up after a few days, I'm glad to see you guys are experiencing some progress, and I'm not surprised to see you experiencing some return of resentment.

There are probably things around you in your environment that will remind you (trigger memories of) the affair. It will be greatly helpful to remove as much of these things from your environment as possible. Dr. Harley very frequently recommends that couples move after an affair, to establish a whole new environment in which they can build a happy marriage and new memories.

Have you listened to the Marriage Builders Radio program? There is a lot of helpful information there.

The idea that medication will not be allowed in your line of work is most likely not true. So long as it is prescribed by a psychiatrist and you report the prescription to your security authority, everything should be OK. I had a similar problem and it turned out to be nothing. You are more of a risk to your service untreated than treated, and this sort of thing is a lot more common than you think. You have done nothing wrong, so don't presume sanctions will happen. Do what is best for your health, and don't hide anything. Report it.

Funny you mention that. While my wife was having her affair in HI, I was buying a family home in VA. It really upsets me that I spent over a half-million on a house (for us) while she was throwing our life away. She knows how much the decision to buy stressed me out because of the market and what-not. I thought we wanted a place to settle down after I finish my military service. Now the simple thought of painting the walls or fixing the roof just makes me spin with resentment. I'm planning on getting this place set up for renters and moving as soon as I can get my ducks in a row.

The thing that really triggers the resentment is when I question her honesty. She appears so genuine now, but I've known her to be a very capable liar in the past. So it's hard to beleive her, even though I want to terribly. She said a few weeks ago that she wished she had carried these secrets to her grave, so that kind of comment makes me wonder if it's all on the table.

I am a listener of the radio broadcast, very helpful. Thanks.

Hi MMM, we are only 15 weeks out from my D-Day here.

Not sure what I can add to the conversation since I am such a newbie, except to say that the anger and resentment go up and down for me. Some days or hours, I think no way am going to go through this pain for one more day...and then right after that I somehow feel right side up again.

As markos has said, once it sunk in for me (I think that it took me a few weeks to realize the enormity of it), the oddest things triggered me. We went through the house one day and threw out years of mementos, gifts, jewelry, etc...anything that felt tainted when I looked at it...I felt angry that I had to "lose" my valued stuff, but it really helped! And I don't honestly miss a thing now.

Most of last week was pretty good. Doing well with the UA. We even made it out for dinner in the city.

I opted for HN/HN for the next read. FWS is reading as well. SF is my number one and I thought I was covering her need for it for the past 15 years. So, we had some conversation, and she comes clean that I actually haven't REALLY (COMPLETELY) fulfilled her sexually EVER, if you catch my drift. Up until this point she always made me feel like I did, so it was quite a shock to my pride, though not nearly as bad as the A. Dr. Harley suggests that in order for ME to have SF, she has to be as well. That makes alot of sense, if I'm the only one satisfied by sex, what kind of dirtbag does that make me?

He doesn't really go into how to satisfy a woman sexually (too much to cover I suppose) in HN/HN, but he recommended reading any popular book on the subject. I found one that seemed appropriate, and it opened my eyes a bit. Anatomically, I think it's nearly impossible to satisfy her by traditional means. Also, she concedes that her daily masturbation (w/ vibrator) may make it more difficult for me to achieve the same end. Believe it or not, I'm glad she told me this and I look forward to meeting this new challenge...if I can fight off the routine triggers of resentment.

Which leads me to last night. We were sitting on the couch alone after sending the kids up to bed. We started some light kissing (already met SF for the day, so this was just kissing for the sake of kissing). Then it hits me like a ton of bricks. She told me she only slept with the OM once and the other times she met him they only kissed (even though she spent the night again). At the time, I was relieved that they had only kissed that second night, but now it seems just as gross as if they had slept together. It almost seems more personal. Was the way I'm kissing her like the way he did? I had to stop...actually felt sick.

Been in a funk ever since. At least I got farther this time. Last week I had gone only three days before falling into this pit of despair. This time it was five. Here's to progress, I suppose.

I feel like my LB$ for her takes quite a few bank holidays.

She has stopped this altogether, right?

She said she would, but that was two days ago. Right now I can't really even talk to her, let alone find out if it's working. I'm in a death spiral of resentment and anger.

Tried talking to her yesterday about where my pain was coming from, specifically that during the affair and after, no one was on my side (OUR side really). Even my father knew something and didn't tell me. (She was drunk messaging POSOM during the A and sent a one line message to my Dad, "Goodnight POSOM, sweet dreams!") She convinced him it was nothing and she had nothing to be ashamed of but asked him not to tell me. He agreed. Her parents didn't admonish her or support me (they did after affair #1). After exposing, only one of my sisters contacted me with a text. One of our common friends from HS just said, "I could tell something was missing" (in reference to our M before A). This is the same friend who I stood tall alongside when she became pregnant in tenth grade and all others, including my W, dropped her like a bad habit. Shouldn't she have told my wife to move Heaven and Earth to make it up to me? I know there isn�t really a way to make it up; it would be nice if someone had at least given those sentiments. I halfway expected my Mom to call her and give her the business after hurting me AGAIN�no joy. I felt completely alone.

After DDay, this forum was the only place I got support; I thank you all for that. Imagine my horror when my WW told me I should avoid the forum. THEY were making me crazy. Really? Are you not convinced that sleeping with POSOM was enough to put me in a padded room?

She also wrote out a heartfelt apology and read it to me. I know that isn't something I should expect from a wayward, but it was nice to hear. I don't believe she meant everything in it, but good to hear just the same. She asked for my forgiveness but I couldn't give it. I know I HAVE to in order to establish a romantic love, I just couldn't.

My resentment is deeply seeded in a lack of respect my W showed me, and the things she selectively shared with the world so others could have the same lack of respect. Anyway, that talk ended up in and AO by me and I left to cool off. We talked again later in bed but I fell asleep facing the wall.

MMM:

Yep, you are on the roller coaster. It sucks. I will just say, it does get better.

Sorry that you are not getting support from family and friends. That is also tough to take, adding insult to injury. I hate that much of our world is so accepting of affairs. AND most people do not have a CLUE as to how to survive (and thrive) after an affair. Which, ironically, doesn't stop them from offering their opinion/advice.

I suggest you use this forum for your venting. You have seen that there is a plan at work here, one that produces proven results. You may need to vent/ask questions more regularly, as your emotions can sweep your plan of action away. You cannot risk AO's (you already know this), and it is very difficult to keep taking the fog-babble, keep doing the work, in the face of your big pile of steaming resentment.

This program may be the hardest thing you will ever do in life. It surely isn't "fair." I know you are up for the challenge.

It will improve. The resentment will fade, but you have to do the work first.

I feel your pain.

I am one month shy of a year and I am still experiencing triggers and the roller coaster of emotions. To say it is painful is not enough. And even the most supportive WS could never truly understand....but it does get better with time.

I also realize more and more that many events I give time and weight to are now meaningless to my WH because he is not under the fog and fantasy anymore. The bases of his and most affairs is lies and a means of escape that could never stand the light of everyday life and demands.

We all cope with pain and loss differently so please rely on your inner resources that have helped you in other obstacles of life. For me I have developed a list of positive affirmations and facts about GOD, myself, my marriage and my WS. I repeat them when i am down. I must have a system to battle the flood of thoughts and emotions that overwhelm at time.

Wishing you healing and Gods direction

So, we have our weekly "pro-marriage" counseling session today. I'm thinking about dropping that and going for the MB online seminar. I just can't wrap my head around spending $700 a month on a counselor that really hasn't helped much. She knew my WS was having an A (which she admitted to during an individual session) but did not encourage her to tell me. Feels kind of like a red flag to me.

Anyway it's mostly just a lot of talk about how we're feeling and how we chose each other based on our fears that we carry from childhood...so in essence we need to settle those fears before we can be happy with eachother. It seems way more abstract than MB. Meeting each other�s EN and avoiding LBs, following policies of RH and POJA? That seems doable. Finding out how my father's As actually set me up to marry a future WW? That seems like nonsense.

WW is amicable to the change, she just doesn't want to go through this recovery alone.

Most marriage counseling is useless, especially in the case of infidelity. Our MC didn't even address the conditions of the affair, extraordinary precautions, or have a plan to create romantic love. Instead, we learned to (supposedly) communicate better and resolve conflicts, neither of which worked very well when we weren't in love with each other.

The MB coach will help you with a plan to restore your love for each other and make your marriage safe for both of you.

If we hadn't found MB, I am sure we'd be divorced by now. At the least, we'd be miserable with each other and I'd be terribly resentful. Instead, MB has helped us create a marriage that is better than we ever had. I'm a big advocate of the program because it works so well when both spouses follow it.

And you are right - all the examination of the past really IS nonsense. It doesn't help to build a better future nor does it help create the plan that will lead to a better marriage. Dr. Harley discourages looking at the past for the reason for our mistakes, because it's not helpful in creating a great marriage.

If your wife will join you in recovery, she will be very pleased with the results. So will you!

Monday morning and I feel compelled to admit to a messed up weekend. I spent most of last week angry and then on Friday sort of snapped out of it. I guess I blew my top more than snapped out. I was looking in her email �sent items� to see some of the messages se sent me years ago while I was on deployment. I wanted to remember so of the messages she sent me. In doing so I found (what I thought to be) an email to OM1 about a month after NC letter. I was shaking with anger and raced home with a script I had worked out during the commute. �I am #*&@! Sick of listening to your lies. You have ONE chance to be truthful to question I already know the answer to. Before you say anything, know that your honesty here is absolutely critical to preserving our marriage.� As soon as I tell her what I found I can see on her face that I messed up. Turns out it was an email to a GF that had the same name as OM1. Sad thing is I later remembered that this was not the first time I found this email and went through this before. I have got to get a grip on my anger.

She forgave me for my error and we actually had half of a good weekend. IC and SF Friday night. RC on Saturday morning with a run in the park. Took the kids to a festival in the afternoon. We scheduled an EN talkthrough on Sunday but never got that far.

While the kids were getting ready for dinner, I was reading �She Comes First� which I believe is really going to help me meet her SF. Problem is I read a line that read something like this: �Oral sex is one of the most intimate acts, generally reserved for the most committed of relationships�. Of course my mind starts to go nuts at this comment, immediately thinking about how my WW A was an �intimate, committed relationship�

Not to be brought down by this, I immediately grabbed my W and the Kids and made it to dinner. I had hoped I would be able to pull out of this nose dive with some light conversation in the car (which wife avoided after sensing my unease). Guess who was in the waiting area of the restaurant�OM2�s twin (actually just his age, body type, and ethnicity). Well that was it. Full anger mode.

I stewed for about twenty-four hours. Didn�t want to talk to W because I knew an AO would happen. Eventually it came out. Three hours of me berating her for being a wh@re and what-not. She was good to take it in stride, I did feel better and we finished the night with some excellent SF.

The point is, I feel like crap that it came to that, but the AO was the ONLY way I was getting out of that dark place. I know the R clock goes back to zero every time, but I�m not ready to move forward until the anger goes away.

The other thought I have is maybe I haven�t got the JC I need for the anger to go away. Up until last week, the only friends she deleted on Facebook were OM2 and an old BF (who she had illicit communications with online recently). Eventually, after one of my AO, she deleted her �friend� which encouraged the affair (actually opened his car door for her and said �have fun�). After another AO, she finally deleted male friends (this, a month after Dday, and only after my request). She still dragging her feet on other �friends� that encouraged the affair. Every time she texts or plays a stupid word game with them, I want to take her GD phone and toss it out the window. She doesn�t seem to understand how her thoughtlessness is causing my anger, or at least contributes to it.

Is there enough JC in the word to make it less painful to imagine my wife laying down with another man? I think if she gives me everything I ask, I�ll still want more. I�ve done some serious thinking into filing for D. I love her, I know she loves me but I can�t waste the next few years being angry. I feel like the last fifteen years are already flushed down the toilet by her A. Lots of good times�gone.

MMM, I am absolutely APPALLED that you stood there and "berated" and love-busted your wife for 3 hours!! How lucky for you that she "took it in stride" and rewarded you with SF afterwards (sarcasm). Do you realize how damaging your anger is to your marriage? How heavily you probably depleted any love she might have started feeling for you? Allowing herself to be treated like garbage is not JC. JC is following EP's and meeting EN's.

Please read this thread Anger Management 101.

Your the only one who causes your anger. Her thoughtless does not!

RQ,

While I am appalled as well, most of that three hours was me crying and honestly talking about how I didn't know if I could take anymore of the highs and lows. The image of me standing there verbally abusing her is not accurate. No excuses...there was some serious LB going on, but she is a kind woman and knows that I am hurting. I am thankful that she is there for me. She is the only one.

While I am responsible for how I DEAL with my anger, I have NEVER been angry in my life before now. This started after her A. She carries alot of responsibility for that. I really am struggling with how to deal with this new emotion.

I've went through the Anger Management 101 multiple times. I'll be honest though, it doesn't cut it for me. Blowing off some steam helps me from wanting to hurt myself.

She did not "reward me" with SF. I calmed down, we talked without LB then she met an EN. There's a narrow distiction there.

Anyway, I think we both have some ideas how to keep my anger from boiling over. She knows she can help by not building up a wall the second I get "funky". I hope to not report a similar story next weekend.

Drat, lost my post. Do you have the book, Lovebusters? Do you listen to the radio program? Dr Harley learned to control his angry outbursts and talks about anger management on his program from time to time.

Here is another good thread to read- RNR2013 is another BH who was given advice to control his AO's
Thread for RNR2013

Are you enrolled in the online program? Or MB coaching?

Will you email Dr. Harley?

What is your plan?

Do you live near the OM?

I had an anger problem that started up after D-Day, too. When we started the online program, that was the one really big love buster my H had about me. He understood that the source of my anger was his adultery, but it didn't help him to feel better about my anger. Every time I became angry with him or judgmental (which I also did a lot of) he did understand but nevertheless, he lost a little love for me.

And, as it turned out, my anger didn't help me feel better either.

Dr. Harley strongly advocates relaxation as the way to overcome anger. Relaxation is not instinctive; relaxation is the result of our logic overriding our emotions.

If you find yourself building up anger, excuse yourself before you say anything hurtful to your wife. Learn to relax in the face of your frustration.

Your wife most likely starts to build up a wall when you get what you call "funky" so she can protect herself emotionally from your anger and possibly even disrespect.

When you find yourself thinking about the A, change what you are thinking about. Do something else, if possible. Replace the hurtful thought with something pleasant in the present. I had to tell myself over and over, "Look how he is acting NOW."

Your wife will find it so much easier and more enjoyable to love you if she feels emotionally safe with you.

Do you have the Five Steps Workbook?

Have you both agreed to follow the POJA? If your wife is on her smart phone playing games that you find are triggers or are against the EPs you have established, then that has to stop. She can always get a "dumb" phone. I've had one for years; they're cheap and make phone calls.

Also, every friend you both have in your live now needs to be agreed upon. Any "friend" that supported her affair should be gone from your lives.

RQ,

I haven't read Lovebusters. Still working on HNHN, making alot of sense. When I was choosing a followup to SAA, I wasn't making any LBs. The anger started a bit after that. It's next on my list.

I do listen to the radio program. Today's call in was VERY appropriate to our situation. In short: My wife likes men, she needs very tough EPs to not form OS relationships. I like how Dr. Harley didn't imply there was anything wrong with the woman who "likes men". She just needs to know that when she sets up her EPs.

I'll take a good look at the thread, thanks

Thanks. I appreciate your constructiveness. I will email Dr. Harley. Right now I'm falling off the wagon twice a week so I'm ashamed that I'm not following his plan very well. I'm getting there.

MMM

Thanks for the advice. If relaxation is logic overriding emotion, it should be right up my alley. I'm part Vulcan.

Good I'm glad you will email Dr. Harley. Will you and your WW be on the show? He will also send you a free book if you're on the show.

I think you should think about moving.

The Five Steps Workbook is a set of questionnaires that guide you in setting up the ways you can meet others' ENs and eliminate love busters. We found the worksheets to be very helpful. The workbook has the questionnaires and worksheets for both HNHN and LB.

My recommendation is to set aside HNHN for now and read LB. That's what Dr. Harley recommended we do because of the affair and all the dishonesty and independent behavior involved AND because of my disrespect and anger after the affair. It's best to end the bleeding first, then work on filling up the love banks.

MMM, I just read thru this whole thread, and have 2 comments:

At one point you said your wife said that she wished she'd taken her secret about the A to the grave. When my FWH said that to me, more than once while we were struggling to recover, I felt he hadn't accepted Dr. H's concept of Radical Honesty, and the reasons it is absolutely necessary. When my husband said he wished he hadn't told me, in light of my pain, it made me suspiscous that he still had secrets. I kept bugging him about the importance of RH (rereading about it together in Dr H's books and online; finally writing him, when verbal discussions led to arguments, how I still felt he was holding something back that was hindering our recovery) until he finally broke down and confessed a final, ugly "trickle truth" detail of his A that was terribly painful, and set us back significantly. It would have been so much easier for me to recover sooner had I had all the details early-on, as Dr H recommends.

This final revelation was as necessary for my husband's recovery as it was for me. For us both it was like the air had finally cleared, and a weight was lifted in our struggle to recover. We finally truly felt open and honest with each other (it actually led me to confess something I had withheld, namely that I had exposed the A to a colleague of his without telling him).

Our D-Day was 3 yrs ago this month, and this final confession was 2 yrs ago next month. I still think of it often, at least once a day if not more, but it is much, much better, and the rollercoaster ride we all talk about is over. It was the most awful thing I have ever experienced, as everyone on this Forum understands.

The second thing I wanted to share is that I think the reason we all have such similar experiences, and a similar recovery timeframe, is that our brains have been injured in the same way. The symptoms match those of PTSD, as you'll see if you read about it. There's even a book someone wrote called Post Infidelity Stress Disorder. I heard Dr H refer to PTSD at least once on his Radio Show, so I'm sure he agrees with this. The nomenclature is the same: all about triggers and flashbacks and anxiety. And the treatment is the same: a combination of drugs and therapy. I managed recovery without drugs, but in hindsight I think it would have helped me through the worst of it. We were able to manage without formal therapy, just using Dr H's tools: the MB website, books, forum and radio show.

Don't be so hard on yourself about your setbacks (sudden bouts of resentment and anger you can't control), we've all been there. Your wife seems to understand this, thank goodness. Just pick up the pieces and try, try again, and trust that in time you will heal. And continue to vent and take advice on this Forum.

MadMind, I never had an anger problem before this either. My anger was also delayed, I think until my grieving process had gotten past the denial stage.

We had also bought HNHN and started with that book first. We read it together each day and had gotten through the first four ENs before we decided to switch to LoveBusters. It took us twice reading through the AO section, plus a bunch of gentle reminders on my thread, before I was able to see any value in stopping them.

Prior to stopping them (and I'm only 3 weeks in on that), the volcano would build up and I'd let loose and then think that I felt better. My H would tolerate them because he felt that he deserved all that and more.

Now he admits that he felt LoveBusted during my AOs. Yikes...I'm going through this pain to try to save my M, not to kill off whatever love for me that he may have left. If we buy into MB and Dr. Harley's viewpoint on the LoveBank Balance....we don't want to keep making withdrawals.

This is not fair. I don't see any other alternatives though. And in reality (since I never had an anger issue before this), anger serves no purpose in any circumstances in life, does it?

For what it's worth, my anger is still there sometimes. Now I am starting to see how bad it is for ME. I'm working on that in earnest by meditating each day and practicing relaxation.

At the expense of the people you love, though!

That's like saying "hurting other people around me keeps me from hurting myself."

Of course blowing off steam - venting - having an angry outburst feels good. Angry outbursts are the one main emotional disorder that actually feels GOOD to the person who has it. But it makes everybody else around them miserable.


Wow, that scares me - she puts up the wall to PROTECT herself. She's entitled to it.

Let's cut to the chase - buy a biofeedback meter and learn to calm yourself down and drive the adrenaline out of your system so that you can stop going temporarily insane and keep your brain functional to solve your problems instead of blowing up about them:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_neg.html

Note: I know you said you never had an angry outburst before the affair, but from this post, it sounds like you are planning to have more - which is planning to fail. I would be delighted for the rebuttal to my post here to be many years of you never having an AO again just to prove me wrong!

JC is not the cure for anger, nor does Dr. Harley ever present it that way.

You and you alone control whether you have an AO or not. NOT your wife. She is not the reason you lose control.

You need to do more than get a grip on your anger ... you need to eliminate it. And you are not going to eliminate it as long as you blame your wife or her affairs for your anger.

JC does not include punishment. Your wife deserves the right to build a wall around herself until you are willing to protect her from yourself.

Your marriage can survive her affairs. It WILL NOT recover, though, if you do not eliminate your anger.

Dr. Harley on anger:

Here's more from Dr. Harley on anger. You need to make eliminating your anger your FIRST priority right now. She cannot do it for you.

And it really doesn't matter when or why your AOs started. What matters is that they are abusive and destructive, and will kill any chance you have at recovery.

The anger of a Betrayed Husband is perhaps even worse than that of an angry man who has never been betrayed. He feels justified in his anger, and a lot of times a WW will take the abuse under the idea that she deserves it. Your anger is more dangerous because it started after her affair, not somehow better than if you'd been an angry man all these years.

And you will not get the JC you need if the AOs continue.

I appreciate all the supportive responses. I think this is one of those things where the newbies are able to help more than the vets. I like to hear about people near the same place as me, coming to grips with a 2+ year recovery is extrememly daunting. No offense to the vets, you're advice is valuable, but I KNOW all that stuff, the trouble I'm having is LIVING it, KWIM. I am truly working on it. I understand that every AO or mentioning of the affair is a huge LB and my W has every right to put up a wall to protect herself.

Not to get ahead of myself, but it's been three days since I've been angry (I know, big deal). I know I've been asking alot of my W, but near CONSTANT contact with her has kept me grounded. After a half dozen AO, I can now sense when it's starting to build and immediately stop what I'm doing and switch gears. I'm so thankful that she hasn't yet started working. We love having this kind of access to eachother.

Did you write Dr Harley?

Yes, I just did. I'll post if it gets read on the air.

Proof that everyone wins with RH: After 15 years of M, my W admitted she was never SF "completely" (if you catch my drift). Not once. After she told me 10 days ago, I made it my personal mission to fix that. I read books and practiced...put her first. She took MelodyLanes advice and quit "taking care of her own SF needs". Well last night was a BREAKTHROUGH...she was still glowing when I left this morning.

Still no more AO. No LB at all on either side, actaully. I'm feeling great.

Fantastic news, MMM!
You are on the recovery road.
Gentle reminder that you are still on the roller coaster, though. Hang on and watch for dips...

This is fantastic. Stay with it and good job for listening to her being RH.

Keep at it. Let us know when your question gets read.

Glad to hear that, MMM!

Remember, recovery is a marathon, not a sprint. Keep moving forward

My question was read at the end of yesterday's broadcast. Dr. Harley pretty much confirmed what we already knew.

1. Second affairs (after first recovery) are exponentially more difficult.
2. Recovery is measured in years, not weeks.
3. She cannot slack off on EPs, even a TINY bit. As a serial cheater, there are no excuses for any infraction.
4. My real problem isn't depression, it's anger. I should consider professional help.

He also said the latest revision of SAA covers resentment a little more in depth than the previous version so I need to make sure I have the most recent. I should also check in on the thread that's reading through that book.

The past week has been "mostly good". I did get a bit depressed/withdrawn and had a AO that upset her. Not at bad as the first one. I threw a plastic cup when I was in a different room. I didn't even see it coming. I just snapped. I'm not trying to excuse my behavior, but I can feel some improvement in the way I keep the anger at bay, or at least find other outlets besides verbally abusing my W.

I�m sort of in a bind now. I knew this day would come but now it's here. My wife is going to be starting back to work. The past 3 months she has not, which has really helped with our UA time. It's also made it very easy for me to keep track of her and her activities.

I still don't trust her around other men, particularly in the workplace. As soon as someone gives her a compliment, I'm sure she'll just smile and accept that $LB deposit. If it's out-of-line, she'll say something, of course. But it's those small deposits which she doesn't seem to even recognize until the balance is high. Like in Office Space, "It's not really stealing, they're only fractions of a penny". Anyway, they build up pretty quick. I imagine her high need for admiration makes the interest rate in her $LB pretty insane.

I asked her the other day what she would do if a doctor innocently put his hand on her arm when he spoke to her? She didn't have an answer. Kinda scary to me.

What's the best way for her to handle those tiny $LB deposits? I told her that in the beginning I want to know if any men talk to her PERIOD, if they are attractive, what their expressions indicate. I don't ever see that easing up either, not with two workplace As in her history.

I foresee this causing some arguments in the future if I don't like the way she handles a particular situation. I won't apologize to her for protecting our M but since I don't trust her judgment on OS relationships, I'm afraid I'm going to look like a big green monster.

Newbie Alert here <--- Me, I'm the newbie

MMM, How do YOU feel about your wife starting back to work? Is this something that was POJA'd and you both have enthusiastic agreement?

As for brainstorming solutions, I can think of "practicing" ahead of time so as to reassure you that she understands what you need.

For instance, when she is out running errands or at the grocery store, whatever, during the day. Perhaps you two can "practice" PORH by spending time at night reiterating about people of the opposite sex that you both interacted with in any way?

Yes, POJA'd.

Part of the negotiation included a clause to back out at any time. Two biggest concerns are loss of UA time and flirty male co-workers (my call). She can find something else, we don't need the money that bad.

Have you been RH and told her this?

What did she say?

If you're no longer enthusiastic then nothing should happen.

How's it going, MMM?

That depends on the day. It�s been about ten days since my last AO. I really feel I have them under control. DJs are still there (I think), but they are not generally intentional. I know they were a HUGE part of her dissatisfaction pre-A and they have to go completely. It�s a nasty habit I have, but I think I�ve gotten better. She is not very good at calling me out though which I need her to do because I honestly don�t see them sometimes.

We share a lot of the same EN which is convenient. SF, A, and IC are on both our top 5s. She also has RC which I don�t have. I�d stay home all day and talk, hug, and SF her if I could. We have had a few dates and planned on a concert this weekend in DC but it got cancelled. We are still well above 15 hours a week.

We�ve had a few �flops� on SF recently. Like I said in a previous post, for the first time in 15 years she actually felt �complete� SF. This has really inspired us (at least me) to catch up on so much lost time for her. So we ended up going overboard. We tried to introduce some toys. Didn�t go so well. Kind of a bad idea when we are still relearning each other in our new M. Definitely going to go back to the basics for now. Go with what works, ya know.

The depression still persists which puts me in a withdrawn state (she follows right after me) but those instances are fewer between. I did get put on a temporary AD which should help. I�m on day five and starting to feel a little better.

I need to stop trolling the internet for things that put me in a bad mood. I�ve been desperate to find success stories about people overcoming resentment, but I haven�t really found any that feel like my type of resentment. Lots of failure stories (Krazy71 comes to mind). I did run across mywifeilove�s sitch today and it was a much needed pick-me-up. His story isn�t like mine but he had every reason to be resentful, but wasn�t. Or, at least the resentment wasn�t consuming him.

I�m trying to never talk about the affair, but I think about it all the time. Bottling up those emotions has lead me to some pretty messed up dreams. Last night I dreamt that my W went back to the OM and brought DD14 and DS9 with her. OS13 was bullying my DS and molesting my DD (along with OM). Oddly enough, I truly beleive this situation WOULD happen if she would have left me for him. OS13 is damaged due to having a crappy role model, I can totally see him beating up DS and having his friends at least sexually harass DD. That's just a sick thought to me that she even considered that as a possible outcome. That dream put me in a terrible mood but I managed to get out of the house for work without any AO or DJs. I call that a victory.

Oh, and we are going back to the POJA drawing board on her new job. I don�t think either of us enthusiastically agree.

That was longer than I intended.

I'll also say that I'm pretty close to granting my WW her F. She's doing great. I don't feel she has any real empathy, but she's trying. And, what WS can truly empathise with a BS?

I wish she wouldn't give up so easily though. As soon as she sees me take a turn for the worst, she kinda "checks out" and watches for signs that I'm fine. At first she used to email and text me if I appeared to be down in the dumps, but now she mostly goes silent and waits for me to make the first move. I feel like she's plan B'ing me at times if that makes any sense. Not all the time...just sometimes.

MMM:

Your past AO's may have taught your W not to tell you upsetting news (like when you DJ.) It might help if she can document them (write them down) and then you can review the form. This can take some of the heat off, and you still get the coaching you need.

What do you think?

DJ's are on the "anger continuum" that Dr. H talks about. In our case, it was obvious that my regular habit of DJ'ing lead to my (very occasional) AO's. Pre-MB, I truly believed that an AO every couple of years was par for the course in marriage. That it "cleared the air"... "brought us closer as a couple"... That there was something WRONG with couples who never argued. (Maybe they just didn't care?)

So your commitment to managing your DJ's is a great step forward. And, I have found, by eliminating my DJ's, my frustration level is way down. And, the strategy to eliminate DJ's requires conflict resolution, which decreases frustration, and really helps to eliminate AO's. Because I never get that far down the anger continuum.

Again, it could be that you have taught her to "check out"...

And thanks for the update. Seems you and your (soon to be F)WW are doing great.

Impressive!

YAY! You are figuring it out! I bet that the DJs and SDs will go away soon also. H and I re-read the 1st and 2nd chapter in LB last week, and I am finally thinking that I can even stop the SDs as long as I am careful to always ask for what I need (I used to always keep my mouth shut until the Taker took over).

You're still early in this process, as am I. I think that as long as we are working it, we just have to trust MB to work.

My dreams also got lots worse once I stopped talking about the A. It makes sense that we still will process things even when we've stopped verbalizing them to our spouse. I'm almost 5 months in at this point, and the dreams are MUCH better.

Thought a bit of an update would be good.

Still doing very well on AO. Have not had a single one in about a month. I�ve talked to FWW about DJ and she doesn�t have any complaints in the past month either. I don�t really have any other LBs that she identifies.

I finished HNHN, and can say it was very helpful, but very difficult to read as a BS. I don�t know if it was just me but there seemed to be a lot of triggers and �justification� of affairs. I frequently had to put it down for a few days at a time. Overall though, It has a lot of good stuff.

Through our discussions, I�m becoming more aware how difficult (not impossible) it will be for me to prevent affair #3. She admits that she had developed an infatuation for POSOM#2 well before they even started communicating. Serious infatuation that I would qualify as a one-sided EA since it totally interfered with our M. This happened with POSOM#1 as well. There was also a 2 other one sided EAs that interfered with my M. Right now she agrees to the EPs and tells me she will be O&H if she ever �crushes� on someone in the future, but I�m having trouble believing it. After a few years I think I�ll start to feel like a warden keeping her from enjoying her natural tendency to play the field.

I still go into a depressive state from time to time, but it�s shorter lived and it doesn�t result in any LB. It does put me into a withdrawn state so no ENs met on either side during that time. Last weekend, I was pretty down but we still had a pretty good date night that met all four of the intimate needs. She was crying the other day, probably after seeing me depressed for a while and said she �just wants us to be happy�. I think the work of recovery is hard for her to, particularly when I withdraw. I can�t help but to think if she had just worked on our M instead of going to bed with POSOM, we could have had a GREAT M. Now, I think it�s still possible, but with a heck of a lot more work. She made this so freaking difficult.

And it really kills me that POSOM (both) walked away scot-free. They took a steaming [censored] in my life and walked away with smiles on their faces. I really hope there�s some credence to karma. These guys deserve to pay up. Good thing they live thousands of miles away or I would help out this karma lady.

I don�t want to leave any impression that it�s all bad. Actually it�s mostly good and at times I get a glimpse of the great it can be. I think my W�s effort is remarkable and wish I was better at getting over things. But, I think she definitely earned her F so I updated my signature. I�ve encouraged her to post but she doesn�t really think she has anything to offer.

MMM, I felt the same way about HNHN. I don't remember looking at it quite as justification, but definitely a tough read in many areas. It made me ill to my stomach and heart wondering just why my H couldn't have just talked about it back then rather than bomb the whole M.

We read it first about 3 months ago MMM, so about the same time after D-Day as you are now. As we've been going back to it now, it isn't quite as hurtful AND we are talking more and more. Keep the faith!

Trust me - there is. If they continue to live like that they are going to wind up with enormous problems in their lives.

Meanwhile, the best revenge is a life well lived.

MMM, are you and your wife dating? Following the Policy of Undivided Attention?

Any chance you guys are listening to the radio show?

Something I would definitely encourage you to do as you bring your wife on board: drop the distinction of her as WW and you as BH. With extraordinary precautions going and recovery well on the way, what's left is to build the marriage you always should have had - and that's what Marriage Builders is all about. If you can get her involved in the program not as something to do "because she had an affair" but "because you want her to be happy in life and fantastically in love with you," you'll go far.

Markos,

We pretty much date every night and all weekend long! We only do a dressed up date once or twice a week but we try to do everything together. We try to follow Dr. Harleys model of meeting all four intimate needs per date but it can be difficult to get RC every night. Often times that just takes the form of walking the dog. POUA is pretty easy for us. And as my resentment fades, it gets even easier.

I listen to it most every day on the evening commute but the Android App gets pretty squirrely as I pass between towers. Yesterday's show got me thinking when Dr. H talked about living with a paranoid person. With my W starting work and her history of multiple workplace As, I imagine I'll start to get a little (or lot) paranoid. Time to put those EPs to work, eh?


Here's my fear of dropping the FWW distinction: Our new reality moving forward is that she is a repeat wayward, and she is VERY quick to fall in love. She has had two physical affairs and multiple "crushes". The FWW distinction serves as a constant reminder to me and her that she has got to aggressively protect her love bank and I have to help her do it. The last affair didn't even start out as an OS friendship. She was crushing on this POS before they had any non-professional contact. And believe it or not, my M started to suffer while it was only a crush. The sad thing is when the OM#2 started taking things to the next level, she told him (at first) she couldn't have an R with him and shared her past history with OM#1. Of course this just told him that my W had weak boundaries so he knew he had a chance, and took it.

I am bound by this new reality of rebuilding my M around the nuclear wasteland my W and POSOM created. The only thing I can do is clean it up. When it's all cleaned up and we have resumed our lives, and made them better than before, it won't be about the A and its effects. There's still a lot to do to get our life back on track though.

1. She needs to successfully restart her career, for professional and social reasons, and not have another workplace A. She lost pretty much all of her "friends", some because of the A, and some because of the move. Plus with every passing day, she is losing her professional skills. And besides, staying at home with the dog all day is driving her bonkers. Now that she is out of her fog she (and I) feels it is time for her to return to work, although it will be very stressful during the beginning. I have promised her I would step up FS and DS and make our home a relaxing, pleasant place for her to come home to.

2. She needs to get back in shape. That's not a DJ. She is actually the perfect weight and is an absolute bombshell. But literally, the day before the EA "started", she ran a marathon. The day after, POSOM FB messaged her about the marathon, providing admiration and affection. Once it turned PA, everything started to unravel including her health and fitness. The stress of managing two lives is huge. Even two months into recovery, she cannot run more than four miles. This is taking an emotional toll on her. I definitely don't want her to return to the pre-A fitness level. Her life at the time was one big IB. But I would love for her to feel good about her fitness as an integrated part of our M.

3. We need to POJA out what to do after I retire from the military in three years. This is the most significant POJA I think we will ever have to do. What will I do? Where will we live? We've been negotiating this for years now. Last night she cried about this and said she just wants to go home, referring to Hawaii. I think my actual words were "I think that's probably not an option for me" but she knows what I mean. I don't think I can go back to the scene of her independent lifestyle and affair. Maybe that will change three years from now, but I think it would be really stupid to move back to trigger town. Such a shame that she had to destroy THAT possibility. She also took Washington of the list by her first A. Why couldn't she have had her affairs in North Dakota? No offense to anyone from ND.

The truth is, while we are working though recovery, I still feel very much betrayed. The sting is getting better, but calling her DW on my thread doesn't feel right...yet. I have all the faith in the world that it will someday.

Changed my name. I guess I'm not "Mad" anymore. It may have been lost in translation anyway. I meant "mad" as in crazy, not angry.

Got this email from W after I ran face first into a trigger this morning:


She gets it. How can I not love her?

For what its worth, MM, I always took it to mean "crazy" - that's a pretty typical reaction from a newly arrived BS.

Love is a feeling that is generated by massive deposits in the love bank - multiplied over time. It's a very sudden change - not gradual.

Suggestion: don't bring up the affair to your wife, even if triggered. If it does come up, you two should get on another topic quickly.

I haven't read your entire thread but I have to tell you that my ex had fewer affairs than your W and Dr Harley gave me the OPPOSITE advice that you were giving on the PS thread.

He didn't tell me not to worry and that we could cut corners on EPs but rather that ALL CONDITIONS that make an affair possible needed to be eliminated, he suggested no cell phone, no email, and possibly that ex would need to work at a job with me to make another affair impossible.

Sorry but I found your advice alarming on the PS thread and with that type of attitude, I fear you are setting yourself up for more affairs in your future. Sorry

Well,

Like I said on PS thread...If my thoughts were not consistent with MB concepts, the mods should delete my posts, which they did. I have NO problem with that. I think she was being BULLIED after she very clearly stated she was having trouble with the all or nothing approach. Instead of giving links to threads in which NOT blocking FB resulted in a FR or second A, she just got blasted. The vets had an opportunity to really help and now she will be gun-shy in telling the full story if/when she posts again.

And how dare someone tell me my M is not in R because I haven't blocked FB or trashed my W cell phone (I know, wasn't you). I KNOW all her activity on those. What I don't know is what goes on at work so that's where my EPs need work. Right now all I have is that she has to tell me of any OS interactions...seems kinda weak to me. You can blast me, or you can help. Your choice.

The hard fact is that I get to decide which EPs I want to enforce, not you. Only I know my exact situation and what the conditions that led to the affair were. I have eliminated them without turning my W into a SAHM (great for those that are, my W would not do well) or trashing her phone. This is precisely within MB principles. I'm sure some cases require deleting and blocking FB, maybe even in PS case (which is why I truly regret posting on her thread), but it's not necessary in mine.

I don't need your apology either. I will take a congratulations since regardless of what you think, my M is in a better place than it's ever been - on the way to great. If I'm wrong, I will come hat in hand to the forum proclaiming my idiocy and update my sig line for Plan D.

Have you ever emailed Dr. Harley? Discuss with him about choosing EPs?

Good that you mention that. I was really thinking of that.

The last time I emailed him I don't think I worded my question right since he recommended Anger Management Classes when I was asking about resentment. I did mention I would get angry so I think he rightfully went down that path. But my anger was never a problem I couldn't fix myself. Once I realized I was in control, I stopped it on a dime. I never got the help for resentment, which I still suffer from occasionally.

I was invited to be a caller but I was actually on the site of the Navy Yard shooting on that particular day so it was good that didn't work out. Means I'm still here to work on my M.

I will work on the question. More for my W than for me though. She is more concerned then me in a way. Last POSOM#2 convinced her that her "restless" tendencies were normal. She was duped in the same way, always trusting, never believing what low-quality OS friends ALWAYS want from a married woman (until it's too late). Thank you for your concern that I receive quality advice.

Posting a caveat that the mods can delete your posts, does not give you a license to post non-mb advice. Thinking a poster is being "bullied" also does not give you a license to post non-mb advice. It's incredibly disrespectful for you to tell others how to post.



All I know is what you posted on the other thread, which is that you are cutting corners that you feel Dr Harley would even advise you not to cut:


We are not here to support you in cutting corners, but rather to encourage you to follow MB. Additionally I have spoken to Dr Harley about serial cheating specifically and I tried to help you in that regard -- that MORE extraordinary precautions are needed, not less. Of course, you can reject this advice. No one said you couldn't!

Obviously my help is not wanted here so I will move on. Good luck!!!

I think Melody bumped a "serial cheater" radio clip. I'll listen to it. I bet it will help. Lord knows I need MORE extraordinary precautions. But I doubt it's FB controls.

I'll be the first to admit to being wrong about other "ideas" I had when I first found MB. Check my thread. If I get burned by letting my W keep her smartphone, it's no one's fault but mine. And I'll let everyone know so I can get the chorus of "we told you so".

Believe it or not, I appreciate your input and the mods for removing my post. Of course it doesn't excuse my non-MB advice, but it does reflect the fact that I'm trying to figure this out and use my best judgement of what's best for my specific situation. I'm going to mess up, but I'm also not going to chase people away that need some compassion when their whole world is turned upside-down.

Like BH suggests, I intend to email Dr. Harley for help on my Ws EP. Right now she is 100% onboard with MB. I want to "put the nail in the coffin" of her adulterous tendencies.

***edit****

Here is another good thread on serial cheaters. There are about 6 radio clips at the end.
Serial Cheaters

Wow, Monkey, your disdain for someone who is reaching out to help you is sad. Susie is one of the sweetest and wisest BW on this board, who has BEEN THERE with a serial cheating WH. She knows what she's talking about. Brushing her off is only your loss.

The proper response then is to notify the moderators; not debate with other posters on the threads of those looking for help. Those who have been around here for a long time and dedicated themselves to using and teaching this program really do know how to teach it, for the most part.

When Dr. Harley counsels a couple who do not follow his advice, he focuses on their failure to follow the plan until they do. You may have been seeing that.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2542642#Post2542642

I agree. She seems like she's got it figured out. I think my thread got out of hand. Sorry for any personal attacks. It seems like some posters either walk or pull out 2x4's when someone only does 9 of 10 things and that's frustrating. If the one thing they're missing is exposing to AP spouse they need the 2X4. But what if one of the things is an EP that has zero chance of preventing another affair? And here, I'm only speaking of my sitch. I had no business supporting that claim from PS.

Here's my point and I've thought about it a lot. There's an EP continuum. On one side you have do nothing, which is pretty much what we did after EA/PA#1. Even NC for life didn't occur until a year later. On the other side of the continuum is we get surgically joined at the hip and share a set of eveballs. I know Dr. Harley has recommended some spouses stay together 24/7 particularly in the case of serial cheaters. But that can't work for us. I'm trying to find something in the middle...well more to the joined at the hip side I guess.

And believe it or not, Facebook helps me do that. My W has a SIGNIFICANT need for admiration and due to 16 years of military service (mine) she has friends and family all over the planet. FB provides two critical functions. First, I can continually flood her page with doting comments fueling her need for affection and admiration and it lets the world know I'm invested in my marriage. The fact that I didn't previously, helped set up the conditions of the affair. I know some affairs can happen even if EN are met but it would have been HIGHLY unlikely in my case. The other thing is that it allows her to maintain contact with positive role models including my supporting family. And besides, I kind of like her doting on me. We're a PDA couple now.

I won't go into details but I know her FB activity. That leaves the gaping hole in my logic. What if POSOM contacts her from a fake profile? Certainly that will restore the feelings of love for him and set us back to ground zero. I highly doubt it. He has zero interest in messing with MY marriage ever again. he was a pump and dumper. He didn't start the A until I was 4000 miles away. When I found out, I flew out to meet him. He nearly pi$$ed himself. And I still hold a very special "ace in the hole" should he ever decide to contact. He knows about this. Like I said though, nothing can happen on FB (from any computer/phone/tablet) that I won't know about.

And better than all that mumbo jumbo up there, I've got something that a lot of BS don't have...a fully committed Former Wayward. Just this morning she wrote the Harleys for help in establishing some truly effective EPs that she will need when she starts work in a few weeks. I'll hold off on my next post until after it gets answered.

Again, sorry if I ruffled any feathers. I have had great success in my career because of my belligerence. I'll keep it off the thread and aim it toward protecting my M.

MM, I read this entire thread last night. Having read your vigorous defence of FB and the undermining of Dr H's EP advice, I was astonished to discover that your W has had "multiple crushes", two "one-sided EA's" and "illicit messages" on FB with an ex-boyfriend, in addition to the two affairs. My goodness.

You were told in the thread that your wife cannot really work with men. She works in the medical field and she went back to work, and you should be very worried about this. I have access to Dr Harley's private forum, and in there I can see that Dr Harley warned SusieQ's serial cheater XH about the dangers of the medical field and told him to get out of there. He did not, another affair took place and they are now divorced.

I can't imagine why you continue to take pot shots at Susie, when she was only here trying to help you because of her own bitter experience and because she has seen many other cases like hers on this board. You are STILL attacking her when you say this:

"It seems like some posters either walk or pull out 2x4's when someone only does 9 of 10 things and that's frustrating. If the one thing they're missing is exposing to AP spouse they need the 2X4. But what if one of the things is an EP that has zero chance of preventing another affair?"

You really need to sit down, SHUT UP and listen to people whose marriages have been destroyed by serial affairs, and you need to apologise to SusieQ.

On the subject of EPs, which you are so anxious to tell us will not stop another affair, I want to tell you about my situation. If you are rude to me as you have been to SusieQ I'll know that you do not wish to get advice from me again.

On the other thread, you said that FB EPs are useless because you cannot stop contact where it is most likely to happen, in the workplace. That, for you, is a reason to give up on the workplace and accept your limitations.

Well, I was in that position with my H's affair, and I followed your logic, too. I could not spy upon his workplace email and phone calls, so I gave up on that and accepted the unhappy state of living with the possibility of contact, for five years after the PA ended. What I should have done was told my H's workplace about the affair (which involved his client and which would have been a disciplinary offence) and let them either sack him, or keep him while monitoring his phone calls and emails. If they refused to do either I should have made him leave and stay at home.

It was only when he was about to retire, 5 years after the end of the PA, that he was forced to use our home PC for the first time ever to contact his whore, and that is when I discovered the magnitude of the ongoing deception. Only now that he is at home full-time can I be confident that there is no further contact.

If that particular workplace is a threat, then your wife needs to leave it. If every possible workplace is a threat, then, if you want to avoid another affair, working outside the home must be eliminated entirely for your wife. If she continues to work, especially in the health field, then this is another affair waiting to happen. It's that simple. You are not going to convince any regular MB posters to support your lower level of EPs, no matter how positively you try to spin them. You can do what you like with your own marriage, but you won't get support for that here.

I said I wouldn't post till Dr. Harley commented on my situation but I guess I will.

I am sorry SusieQ. I've tried to right this ship but I don't know what I can do. I'm frustrated. There's alot of negativity directed toward me (earned) and no matter what I say, it keeps coming back. I've said my piece, and I thought I said it earlier but I guess I missed the mark. Maybe this posting thing isn't for me.

If Dr. Harley says to delete FB, I expect she will. If he says she needs a new career or work at home, that will be hard to do immediately, but we'll work toward that goal. I'm excited to hear his suggestions.

I do not appreciate being told to SHUT UP, but that is your prerogative if you think I'm being disrespectful. I certainly would tell someone to shut up if I was disrespected. I mean no disrespect. It does bother me when I don't see the compassion I would expect if these were face-to-face communications. I guess that's hard to do on a forum.

Sugarcane, I do not wish to alienate another ally, let alone you. Your post kind of cuts to the quick. It is, and has always been the workplace. I have NEVER given up on trying to find workplace EPs. In fact, that's exactly what I asked for. We need the money and she likes the career. Right now I'm hanging my hat on O&H. She pretty much has to tell me of every OS interaction. I have to visit her workplace often. She has to accept a less than ideal job (another hospital) Where we live there are NO other options. She has been out of work for 6 months and we are bleeding. I bought a house (huge house) in the middle of the short affair. I'm so far underwater, it's not funny. She needs this job but is actively looking for something with lower likelihood of temptation. Does anyone have an idea what THAT would be? That's the kind of thing I need, so I certainly appreciate input.

I looked over this. I feel confident that I didn't say anything to offend. I did ask to not tell me to shut up, when I am expressing a valid fact that deleting FB would not prevent another affair, my scary reality. I'm sad that you cut my quote short when I also said I had no right to support another BS with MY ideas. Like I said, I was trying to right this sinking ship of a thread. It's doing way worse than my R. But that's what I want in the end so I guess I'll take what I can.

Fair Winds.

The "SHUT UP" was in a sentence that said "SHUT UP and listen". Surely you've heard that phrase and understand what it means. The point was that you should not do as you had been doing, contradicting posts from contributors who have studied and used this programme, written to Dr H, been on the radio show and enrolled in the online course. You are the one reeling from another affair and yet you felt entitled to tell other people who have been through repeat affairs that that their advice was off the mark and worse, to repeatedly contradict the MB advice being given to a new, desperate BS.

" She pretty much has to tell me of every OS interaction."

I'd just point out that a serial WS will lie to you about the OS interactions that she does not want you to know about. If she takes a fancy to someone at work and a mutual attraction develops, you might think she "has to" tell you about the interactions but, as any 3 year-old has the sense to do when she take the sweets and does not want to get in trouble, she will lie to you about what is going on at work.

Did she tell you the truth about her other affairs and infatuations when they were happening? Why would she tell you about a new one?

Apology accepted. Just don't blow up at me again and I will be more than happy to help you!

I will start here.

I also just recently read through your entire thread and it was clear to me that you don't understand what Dr Harley says about serial cheaters and how R needs to be handled as well as other issues such the SSL (secret second life).

So please take what SC is saying to heart. You need to stop talking and start listening because your M cannot survive any more affairs.

MM, having a serial cheating spouse promise to tell you all OS interactions will not protect your M.

My ex and I had this exact agreement. In fact, Jennifer Chalmers gave us this advice, not as an EP but as an exercise to help my WxH become more O&H and to help me feel more comfortable about what he was doing at work.

He enthusiastically agreed and was very good at following through for a while. He would come home from work and some time during the evening we would sit down together and he would tell me every single OS interaction that he had.

Slowly but surely he stopped having so much to tell me...and eventually he fell back into old habits (having a SSL) exactly like SC says, when there was an attraction to somebody.

What was Dr. Chalmers' suggestion to avoid a SSL at work? What did you do?

You are not going to like this but hopefully this will help you understand how important EPs are to your situation.

Dr Harley had an email on his radio show from someone trying to recover with a serial cheating WH and she had listed off all the EPs they were following, such as talking throughout the day, texting each other pictures of where they were, etc, etc, etc.

He said something, Well that sounds good but serial cheaters typically will hit rock bottom, agree to do anything to save the M and then slowly slip back and start resisting doing the things they had promised to do at first. He talked about a couple that was enrolled in his online program and he said the WW did exactly that -- was starting to do things she had promised not to do.

Dr Harley warned that this is normal for serial cheaters and re-emphasized the importance of creating a lifestyle where an affair would be next to impossible.

MM, this is exactly what happened in my situation. You could not have seen a more remorseful WS. He cried when he watched the infidelity videos and promised to do everything and anything to make this up to me. He told my BIL early in our R: I am more in love with SusieQ than ever!!

When I started to see signs of him slipping back into having a SSL life again (getting an email or text that made it clear he was doing things that he was not telling me about) we both called into the radio show and he improved again. When I started to see things that concerned me again, we enrolled in the online program. Again, things were improved and then started slipping off again. Then he had another affair.

Do you see how important lifestyle changes are? You MUST take EPs more seriously. We thought we were but there were many gaping holes left open - WxH had email, FB and the biggest one - a job that a serial cheater cannot have, one that has many opportunities for OS interaction.

You are making a grave error in allowing your W to return to work in the medical field. She shouldn't be working in a setting that would allow opportunities for OS interaction, never mind an environment that is RIPE for an affair.

Dr Harley specifically told me that many many affairs happen in the medical field. The nature of the work, long hours, men and women working together.

You say that you need the $$, but your M cannot survive another affair or "one sided EA" or crush which I think is inevitable for someone like your W, sorry to say. History has shown you that she is easily tempted over and over and over again. The answer is to not put her in an environment where there is temptation - not to trust that she will have willpower where she has not had it in the past.

One last point, for now:

I hope you realize that someone like your W and my ex, they aren't just incredibly attractive people that have people falling over them and they have just had bad luck being in the right place at the right time to have someone attractive lure them into these affairs.

They have developed a skill set (Dr Harley told me this specifically about my ex and I have heard him say it on other shows about serial cheaters). They are SKILLED at flirting and attracting members of the OS and it makes them feel great.

I saw that you were talking about how manipulative the OM was and were concerned that a doctor at her new job will hit on her. The truth of the matter is she is the problem. Not these men.

Is this your question?

Radio Clip of MindMonkey's question

Like I said I wasn't going to respond to my thread until Dr. Harley answered my question which he did today. Thanks BH but that was not my clip. I expect it to hit the archives in a few days.

I actually didn't even look at my thread since Friday. it was kind of bumming me out. I felt so good about my R and everyone was saying it was crap. Don't misunderstand, I see where everyone was coming from. It did appear I wasn't taking EP's seriously. I would do the same in your cases.

Dr. Harley didn't actually answer MY question. Joyce asked my WIFE to call in instead of ME. She jumped at the chance (to my surprise). She did a great job I think but she was "wierded out" by the sound of her own voice when she replayed it.

In summary:

1. They give us an "A" in recovery so far. Yeah us!
2. Dr. Harley 100% supports our EP's. We sent them our 10 EPs in email and they said they were great...if...big if...we made them part of a rigid change to our lifestyle (or something like that).
3. I CANNOT go on any more deployments/extended periods away from my W. Not happening. EVER. I've essentially "sunk" my career to protect my M, but it's worth it.
4. She CANNOT EVER have a single drink when I am not present. She should also consider not drinking at all. He implied that she may have some alcoholic tendencies but he didn't know enough to make that claim. I do, and she does kind of scare me when she has more than one drink. Her inhibitions go to ZERO. Almost a completely different person, and that's when both her EAs turned PA. When I (or good friends) are there to protect her, no problem, but if not...
5. She has to "be careful" on social media. His words but he amplified more on not sharing any personal information period, more than not having OS friends. I think she's done this already though. She hasn't posted since D-day. She has also deleted any OS contact that is not immediate family.
6. She has to ALWAYS tell me of ANY OS interaction. SusieQ, this is the one that scares me. Right now she is doing great, but I do fear that I will always be on her case about this one. Is there something that happened in your case that was a red flag I should look out for.

Dr. Harley didn't go into all the nitty gritty on the program but Joyce talked to my W for about an hour on Saturday. I'm amazed that she has that much time to dedicate to us with everything else she does. She mentioned "impulse control" but Dr. Harley didn't go in that direction.

Anyway, still digesting much of what was discussed. That man (and his better half) is a GENIUS.

I've got lots of questions to respond to so give me a few days. I really mean to keep my marriage on the right track so stay with me if I drift in and out of MB concepts. I'm still figuring this stuff out but LOVING the results.

I was talking about this radio clip, back in Sept. I thought they read your question on 9-16? No?

Brainy, his wife was on the program yesterday. "Brenda", I believe it was.

My question was answered on 9-16, but that wasn't it. I think Joyce referred to me as "Shaun", it was at the end.

That's so great that you got Dr Harley's advice on the radio show. I listened to it today and have a couple of questions.

1) Did your W's illicit FB messaging with exBF and multiple crushes and "onesided EA's" all also happen while you were on deployment?

2) Did you tell Dr Harley about the other times she had crossed the line or only about the two As (that was all I heard him mention)?

3) Did you tell Dr Harley that your W works in the medical field?

I was wondering this as well because it would help me answer some questions of my own.

Thank you for all the time you put into responding. I'll speak to a few of your statements.


Not surprising, he said the same thing to my wife yesterday (come on doesn't a FWW get some credit for calling in by herself). That's what he says...she has to prevent it and if it ever happens, time to think about other employment. Just the same, we have a plan for her to change jobs in a few months. It will still be in a hospital, but a military hospital. I've been in the military long enough to know that they have a very low tolerance for adultry (once it becomes public). So this should help out a bit. Plus, I outrank any of the nurses or doctors she would be working alongside. They would have to be pretty stupid to start anything with MY wife.


I'm sure I won't convince you of this, but we have. I have become the resident expert on when my wife is being honest. There is no way she could start a SSL without me knowing. As you may have heard on the radio show, the two times she created a SSL, I was either on deployment or on the other side of the planet for months at a time. It would be impossible for her to start one with me here.


I disagree that I am not taking them seriously. My wife would not have had the affairs if I was coming home every night. No one has to accept this as fact, but it's my reality. I am sending a formal letter to the military declining promotion. This means that my career is over and I won't be going away ever again. I have sunk my career. I believe that's pretty serious. I don't give two squats about FB or email, she can keep them or toss them but I've always preferred the "devil I know" over the one I don't.

I'm not dismissing any advice given in regard to EP's but I feel like we have a plan, endorsed by Dr. Harley. I would like to carry out that plan and continue to update my thread. There's so much more to recovery than EP's. I think we are done with that and working on the next steps. I reserve the right to revisit earlier steps, always on the lookout for those "gaping holes".

On a lighter note, Dr. H also told her to make sure I was "fitting the fantasy" the OM provided. She wrote me this while I was at work yesterday:

"And just in case you were wondering, you more than "fit the fantasy".
You blow it out of the water. (You'll understand once you listen). ;)"

Okay here it is.
Radio Clip of MindMonkey's question from 9-16

Thanks Brainy!! Did you ever address the AO issue that was discussed in that show, MM?

Also I can hear your frustration regarding not wanting to discuss EPs anymore, but I would still appreciate it if you would answer my above 3 questions. I really think it's important and I can explain why after you answer them.

Great questions:

1. Maybe I didn't acurately represent these claims, I don't want to go back in my thread to find the exact words. Alot was said when I was stewing in resentment.

- she didn't have an illicit conversation with old BF. He got drunk one night and sent a love note to her saying "she will always be the one that got away". She deleted that message so I don't know if I got all the details. I accused her of having poor boundaries or this guy would have never said such a thing. Still believe that.

- I found one message where she made a comical response to a workplace friend. She never deleted it because she didn't see anything wrong with it. I didn't until I found out about her A. She was going hiking in mixed company and a man asked her what size she was (referring to gloves). She answered 34D. That was the "elicit" message.

- multiple crushes happen whether or not I'm on deployment. They turn A when I am. i don't have problems with her developing a "crush", if she tells me about it. She's doing that now. I was surprised at all the names she gave me. As I fill her love bank, they will stop.

- one-sided EAs. What I call it when a "crush" turns into an "infatuation". They happen when I'm away not filling her $LB

2. Of the pages we both wrote, it was explained everything multiple times, he's one example:

"Currently she is not allowed ANY OS friends at all and we have blocked former affair partners and previous lovers from social media, email, and telephone. I also will not be deploying again, which I truly believe is the primary condition that led to the affairs. The other condition is the one I struggle with. In short, she likes men. She always has at least one or two workplace crushes. When I am deployed and cannot make love bank deposits even the smallest deposit from another man can put her over the romantic threshold. Even though I won�t be deploying again, I want her to learn how to better protect her love bank."

Joyce talked to her on this last weekend as well. She (Joyce) actually thought Dr. Harley was going to go in the direction of "impulse control" because of all these infatuations. I guess he goes where he goes. I think he expressed there was more to the problem then two affairs.

3. Yes. He really didn't seem to care about that detail. I don't know why...he's the Doctor. He determined the uniqueness of our situation and applied his vast knowledge to provide his valued assistance. It may have been pertinant in someone else's situation.

You do realize that your wife is a flirt right? She is INVITING these men to make deposits in her $LB. Does she realize that? That is a habit that she is going to need to break to be successful.

MM, I can see right away what the main problem is and it is not your deployments. (Although I agree that the deployments are a problem) The problem is that her love bank is open for business. You could be meeting her needs 100% and spending 20+ hours per week with her, but as long as her love bank is open, via poor boundaries, she will have more affairs. She would fall in the category of serial cheater which means she is addicted, not to a specific person, but to having affairs. I don't think Dr Harley really picked up that the main problem is serial cheating from the sound of the radio call.

The main cause of affairs is poor boundaries. Unmet needs make them more tempting, but it is clear she has extremely poor boundaries.

Susie can be an invaluable help here because her XH was also a serial cheater.

Of course I realize that. I always have. She does now but I can't say that's always been the case. She always thought it was her "role" if that makes any sense. Everyone flirting and what-not. Her new job should see a significant reduction in that.

I got around to answering your questions. I'm a slow typist and I sort pick at a post throughout the day as time permits it work. I'm not blowing anyone off.

I did address the AOs. Markos has been invaluable in that regard. I stopped counting but I haven't had an AO in a WHILE. Not since I started working on it. Time will tell but I feel good about it. AD have helped a LOT but those are only short-term. A day will come when I have to stay even-keeled without AD. I'll have Markos on speed dial.

I don't presume Dr. Harley missed the point. I don't see how you can claim Dr. Harley didn't pick up on the main problem. We gave him and Joyce a full disclosure of everything, the advice he gave was the advice he thought we needed. He talked to her before the show and she was VERY clear that it was her serial cheating, EXTREMELY poor boundaries, and general concern for her ability to shut down her $LB for others that concerned her. I won't give you details of his private discussion with her (nor will I go into specifics that Joyce covered) because that is advice he obviously didn't want out in public which some other couple could see as false hope in their sitch. Well, I can say he (and Joyce) did address THOSE specific concerns you mention and I'm more than pleased with the [free] help she was given.

These were HER specific questions (word for word):

1. Is there possibly something wrong with me that I begin to obsess about another person with such little prompting? Why is it that I get carried away by very small love bank deposits that (I imagine) other married people can brush off fairly easily?
2. What are the best EP's to have in place to protect my love bank so that only my husband makes future deposits and I remain in love with him?

And yes, it is clear that she has poor boundaries. She's cleaning them up. And I'm meeting her need to reduce the temptation.

Good. I think you guys are going to be OK. At least I hope so. Stay vigilant MM. And stick around.

Well, you just agreed with every thing I said so I am not sure what you are arguing about. What is your point of contention?

I have to admit that I wondered if Dr Harley missed that your W was a serial cheater as well.

In his radio programs, I have heard him talking about "how to create a serial cheater" (not a true serial cheater), which is by not changing the conditions that led to the affair (not giving up OS friendships, overnights spent apart, etc) which is what leads to affair #2.

vs

A true serial cheater, a person who is addicted to affairs and having attention from the OS. This type of person is at very high risk for an affair regardless of their ENs being met and shouldn't be placed in situations where they will be tempted, period. He has talked about this topic many times on the radio show and to me personally.

The advice he gave you was for the type of WS who is not a true serial cheater but for someone who didn't change the conditions that led to the first affair.

And a true serial cheater doesn't just have extremely poor boundaries, MM. They have a skill set in getting attention of members of the OS and in flirting with them. They know what they are doing, but it makes them feel great and they basically have an uncontrollable urge to do it. Again, this fits with your W (that's what all these "crushes" are) vs the slippery slope of engaging in OS friendships.

So I admit to being confused by the advice you received.

I see. For starters there's only so much Dr. H can pickup in the fifteen minutes before the show. On the show he kind of spoke to the first type of serial cheater, which I think explains how the relationships turned into affairs.

But, I agree, there are some elements of the second type of serial cheater you mentioned. She does like admiration, but she does not care where it came from, and I really didn't give her any. During the time of the second affair she was getting into really good shape. She wasn't doing that for OM, she was doing that because of all the positive feedback she got period (men or women). She does have an urge to seek out that attention, from anyone. She does have a skill set in attracting that attention from men. She's good looking and isn't a witch. Where the model falls apart is that she is not actively trying to get OM interested. Her flirtyness pales in comparison to other nurses. She's actually quite shy. She understands she has a part in getting them interested and that is precisely an area she is getting under control, specifically working to be unattractive to OM. That she can do.

Dr. Harley told her on the phone that some women just have a natural tendency to develop these feelings. The change she needs to make is what to do with the feelings. Again along the lines of it's much easier to change behavior than feelings. She needs to share them with me instead of engaging the fantasy.

But, whatever type of serial cheater she is (my money and the Harley's is on type 1) doesn't really matter to me. I'm taking a set of precautions that covers both cases. In the second case, it does require a lot more work from my W which is precisely why she emailed the Harley's. If you look at her questions to Dr. Harley, she was asking him what type of serial cheater she is. She asks, "Is there something wrong with me?" I think it's pretty clear what type Dr. H thinks she is by the discussion he gave.

SusieQ, maybe we are on different sheets of music, but I appreciate your last post, it gave me something to think about. In particular, I don't really know how she behaves at work. I imagine her to be shy, working her butt off, and every so often, developing a (mostly innocent) crush. Because that's what I've seen for 15 years. But maybe she puts on a pair of scrubs and turns into a completely different person, trolling for the attention of OM. I have very hard time seeing that and I don't think anyone on the forum could make that assertion from the information I have provided. If there is anything in my thread that makes you dead to rights sure she is type II, please bring it to my attention. I will consider it fully.

I agree we agree. The contention is where you said Dr. H missed the point.

Thanks for the encouragement. You do the same.

Sometimes I'm surprised by the relative fewer numbers of BH/WW threads that end in a successful recovery. I'm so glad the Harleys gave us an "A" in recovery so far. Nice confidence builder. I CAN do this.

Boy, you said a mouthful with "stay vigilant". That's my daily mantra. Not just watching for another affair in the making, but for keeping vigilant about meeting EN and avoiding LB. So far, so good.

Hi MM,

I too was married to a serial cheater. Like SusieQ, I am now divorced.


This ^^^^ and that your WW "always" has one or two crushes on men sounds like type 2 serial cheater to me. Even if WW works in a military hospital...that is not much assurance that anyone wouldn't be stupid even to have an affair with YOUR wife...waywards don't use any logic and think they are too smart to get caught.

After listening to the radio clip, I am wondering about what Joyce pointed out....how your LB$ for WW is in the black but you are depressed for days at a time. I understand the rollercoaster very well but that sounds odd.

I do hope you are able to recover your marriage but like SusieQ and Mel, see huge problems. My two cents. Take care!!!

I don't doubt that. I also see potential for huge problems but right now she's on board. Part of the POJA for her returning to work is that I get to conduct unannounced visits and can pull the plug anytime. She can do the same. I think SusieQ mentioned we could do without the $$, and I agree. Maybe I'm playing with fire but we are going to try to work this angle.

I'm not sure about your other comment. I hope I didn't imply in my email that I was both "depressed" and "in love" at the same time. The roller coaster for me was more along the lines of feeling madly in love one day and not being able to look at her the next. That's all kind of passed but it will probably come back from time to time. I hope it doesn't, but with every dark day comes a lesson on how to deal with it.

I also know that a military hospital doesn't offer much protection. There was NO logic in the last affair. Just the other day, I told her if she was willing to throw away her family and marriage for an A, why should I feel safe that she or another man wouldn't throw away a career. Call me stupid, but I actually trust her this time. In my book, she actually earned it...there's nothing blind about it, I watch everthing. I know this won't set well with the forum, but I trust my FWW. I couldn't say that after the first affair or really any point between the first affair and now. She scared the CRAP out of herself this time. So close to losing everything and getting a ugly glimpse of the type of person she might be. I'm going to run with this a while, it seems to be working.

I just had a thought. Since this is a military hospital, any chance you could get someone on the inside to do you a favor and keep tabs on things for awhile?

To be brutally honest, I thought to myself MANY times reading through your thread that your WW reminds me of my ex. True serial cheaters are very similar.


Agreed.

Also this:

I agree with what FTF wrote earlier - your W is a flirt. I suspect these "crushes" and "one sided EAs" develop when she gets a man's attention at work and there is flirting and IC going on.

I am not surprised that you have a hard time believing it and I didn't want to believe that my WxH was that clueless and that he had just bad luck when it came to women hitting and fawning all over him. The truth is it was a skill set for him and it came very naturally. It doesn't surprise me at all that your W said she "didn't see anything wrong with it". My ex would have said the exact same thing and did when I would ask him about things that concerned me. Again, Dr Harley told me this is normal for a serial cheater and I have heard him say it on other programs (very good at interacting with members of OS).

Also your W said on the radio program that she is afraid that if a man even compliments her, she is worried about it taking her down the wrong path. What struck me about that is the fact that men are complimenting her. You realize that men don't just randomly compliment and fawn over married women for no good reason, right? They will with a woman who is engaging them and being very friendly with them. They will with a woman that has a sign that says "open for business". Again, I know you will have a hard time believing this. I did too.

A lot of other little things too. You recently asked her what she would do if a doctor at work touched her arm and she didn't have an answer for you. RED FLAG.

Serial cheaters are addicted to the beginning part of a relationship and it isn't too difficult to get them to end their affairs. They typically will also agree to everything the BS wants, in the beginning and then will slip back into old habits. Again, all things I saw in this thread.

But I know that you have spoken to Dr Harley and feel good about the path that you are on so I am not going to debate it with you. I really do hope that I am wrong in my fears that you are taking some risks with your marriage. I really do hope you guys make it. Good luck!

Have no idea if this will help you but here is WxH's thread:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2520703&page=1

And I saw your comment about your WW getting credit for calling into the radio show. My ex did as well, as well as did coaching with Steve Harley and Jennifer, and we did the online program.

MM, I do not think you are stupid but I do think you are naive and are trusting an untrustworthy person. After Dday1, the President of my then WH's company (and this a multi-billion $ company) told my WH (who was also an executive) that if he ever cheated on me again to get his stuff and GET OUT...and that he'd basically kick his a$$ (in the business world). That did not stop a Dday 2 with another OW who worked with him.

Here is my exWH's thread:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2370613&page=1

He was lying the whole time about the affair with OW2 not being a PA. The affair had gone on for at least five months before Dday 2. Like your WW, my exWH is an admiration junkie. I do not want to discourage you from trying to reconcile but I do want you to clearly understand the uphill battle you are facing with a serial cheater. I certainly am not privy to every single case involving a serial cheater but those I have seen, I do not recall a MB recovery happening.

HEY!!!


My ex didn't call the radio show but he did coaching with Steve...while still lying about his latest A being a PA.

Warning, I have a long post coming up. I truly appreciate the support and advice of the serial betrayed. You have given me so much to think about and the threads from your xWS will be an excellent source for me as I proceed. Yes, I read them all...Wow!

I struggled at the beginning on the forum. I searched and searched for a success story with a similar feel to my sitch. I didn't find a single one. I want to be a beacon of hope to a future serial betrayed, but I know the odds are not in my favor.

SusieQ, I don�t know if there is a copyright on the types of serial cheaters but this is my understanding based on discussions in the forum and what I�ve take from the articles and radio segments.

TYPE I � �The Repeat Offender� This type of serial cheater is not what you would consider a �true� serial cheater. The second, or subsequent offense was a function of the WS not adhering to the extraordinary precautions put in place following the first offense, or by not identifying the correct (or any) EPs to start with. This cheater has yet again left his/her love bank open for another AP to fill. Combine this with poor boundaries, and the next affair is waiting to happen.

TYPE II � �The Serial Cheater� In much the same ways that killing two people doesn�t make one a �serial killer�, cheating more than once doesn�t make someone a �serial cheater�. This type of serial cheater does not accept extraordinary precautions (though they may profess to) and they are perfectly aware of the boundaries they cross on a routine basis. They understand the addiction of the affair and want the high that comes with it. They desire this high along with the admiration and attention of the AP. They possess a skill set to get this high and disregard the feelings of the BS to get it.

Can both be fixed?

The repeat offender � Depends on the BS. To minimize the chance of subsequent affairs, it is simply an exercise in developing EXTRA-extraordinary precautions. The success of recovery hinges primarily on the ability of the BS to accept Just Compensation which is very expensive in this case, most of the time too expensive for the WS to pay. The BS also has nearly insurmountable resentment that must be overcome for a recovery to be successful.

The Serial Cheater � Depends on the WS. No extraordinary precautions can be put in place to prevent another occurrence, with the exception of 24/7 coverage. Since in most cases, this is next to impossible, it is incumbent on the WS to get the medical/psychological help they need and participate in their own path of recovery. As with many addicts, the Serial Cheater generally has to hit rock bottom to get the help they need, and it takes a lifetime of commitment to stay �clean�. Generally, not worth it to the BS.

What type is my wife?

Here�s the radical truth�I don�t know. I lean toward the �repeat offender� since there were no EPs put into place following the first A, and I didn�t even know about her crushes and infatuations until we started the RH following the 2nd Dday. She told me about all of them, unprompted. I have read her workplace evaluations where she is commended on her professional demeanor with both patients and coworkers. Every indication I have is that she is mostly shy (with new people, outgoing with friends) and only a very mild flirt, which she can likely fix.

I haven�t really said this in my thread because my W reads it, but�often times I fear she is Type II. But this fear comes COMPLETELY from information she has provided me herself, after we agreed to adopt the MB concept of RH. I would have never known about these �crushes� or �infatuations� otherwise. She gave me (and Dr. Harley) this information because she has the same fears herself and wants to make sure I know what I�m working with. I don�t feel like I can use that information against her, that wouldn�t encourage continued RH.

Whichever the case, I choose to recover my marriage as though she were type I, not because I am na�ve, but because that�s the ONLY way it will work for ME. Every BS has the right to walk away from a WS and I can honestly say I would walk away from a true serial cheater. I refuse to monitor my W 24/7. That was not part of my marriage vows. I need to be loved and respected, not be her babysitter. Besides, I have four years left on a military contract. I intend to honor all my vows, not just the ones that are already half broken.

I�ve got some personal pride at stake too. I carry some blame in the state of the M before both affairs. I am guilty of AO and DJs and not meeting her ENs. So part of me thinks she had the affairs because of it (that would support Type I). The best plan I have is eliminating all LB and meeting EN�s, that way, if it happens again, I will be able to walk away�held head high that I did the best I was willing to do�knowing for certain she was a true serial cheater. Right now�if I walked, I wouldn�t be able to look at myself in the mirror or look at my kids and say �Daddy tried�.

You say I have an uphill climb? No�I�m in the wheelbarrow�she�s the one doing the climbing. As a condition of recovery, she takes the lead. She may give up on it. I will have ZERO tolerance for any friendly OS interactions (including a �good morning� to a passing neighbor), I will have ZERO tolerance for IB, I will have ZERO tolerance for hiding/deleting any electronic activity. Essentially, I will take any infraction as evidence that she is, in fact, a type II and proceed accordingly.

The question I have for you SusieQ (or any serial betrayed)�If you knew your WS was a true serial cheater, would you have gone into plan D earlier? Or, would it be worth the Herculean effort to try anyway? I know what my call would be.

My H was a flirt for years, has had a couple of affairs, and some online inappropriate chats, as well as a couple of infatuations. Why did I bother giving him this opportunity to right things after his last affair during his deployment?

Because he promised to stick to the MB principles, including ALL the EPs. We didn't have this kind of guidance in the past. So we didn't know about EPs and avoiding the conditions that led to the affair. Didn't "get" transparency and integration. We both thought he had learned something. He would say after each one that the "grass was not greener." But none of our MCs EVER talked about EPs and the other essential marriage-building principles the Harleys discuss.

It's easy to have an affair. Dr. Harley says they are so common that if we don't actively protect ourselves, we WILL have an affair. We are no longer blind and dumb to what can happen and now we actually proactively protect ourselves and each other from our worst instincts.

My H loved the flirting and getting female attention, but he has completely stopped all of that. It took some getting rid of years of bad habits, but nearly three-years post D-Day, he doesn't flirt anymore. I still check his emails periodically for any sign of being overly friendly and haven't found anything in a long while. So MB is sinking in and becoming our new foundation of habits that we both live by.

We both wish we had known about MB years ago. You'd think this would be sort of obvious - the idea of protecting against affairs - but somehow we believed in the idea of being independent and trustworthy without any real accountability.

We signed up for the Online Seminar and found that once we established what it takes for us to have a great marriage and to protect it from outside danger that we are in love with each other, in a way we have never been before. I can honestly say I'm glad I stayed and gave him this chance. He is, too. I thought at first I was just being stupid or desperate, but really, it was because MB was truly our only chance and if we'd been following it all along, the affairs wouldn't have happened.

Final note: you should not put your wife in the position of leading your recovery. This is often called "Driving the Recovery Bus," and it's not endorsed AT ALL by the Harleys. It will take all the effort you can both put it into, but she should not be the one "pushing the wheelbarrow with you in it." It will take everything you both have to recover and have a great and safe marriage.

Sorry, that was for illustrative purposes. What I mean to say, is I think she has got to RIGIDLY (Joyce's words) adhere to a new lifestyle, where one false move portends certain doom. I have the work of meeting needs and avoiding LBs, where a minor misstep results in a stumble. I just think she has got alot more work to do.

And...I totally appreciate your post, particulary this...


I truly feel that's what got us here.

and this...


That singular thought alone has cost me more nights of restlessness than any of the mind movies. "Why didn't I find this site four years ago?" But I'm glad we found it now. Little sense crying about "what could have been".


EDIT: Thank you for directing me to your sitch. Read through bits and pieces. Good for you.

One thing about military folks...We have a tight brotherhood (yes, girls are allowed). Regardless of where she works, I will be integrated in her workplace to the maximum extent possible. A military hospital increases the "maximum extent" significantly. I'm sure some kind brother/sister will let me know if something is up. The other thing about military is there are always ALOT of tattle-tells. Mostly so they look better than the other guy, but it'll help.

This is kind of a new thing to me. Before this, I NEVER ONCE stepped one foot into her place of work. I think if a potential POSOM saw ME around the place all the time, he would realize he doesn't have a chance. Of course, they can be pretty stupid.

Yes, visiting our fWW's workplace as often as possible, especially "drop in" visits, will be great to telegraph your presence in fWW's life, and, for you to know who the various co-workers are.

Some more suggestions:

Have fWW put a photo of the two of you (which you approve of) in her work space.

Begin YOURSELF talking "we" instead of "I" whenever you have a conversation with anyone... eg. "What are you doing for Thanksgiving?" "WE are going to our family's house."
Encourage your fWW to do the same. It is a subtle mindset that not only announces your integration to the world, but reminds each of you of your integration. Operate as a unit, not as individuals.

Refer any help-seeking OS people to your spouse. If a woman asks your opinion on anything personal, refer her to your wife. Similarly, encourage your fWW to do the same. Joyce has made this point many times. At the very least, if a request of assistance/help/personal opinion comes from a member of the OS, answer or participate as a couple.

That's a great idea. Though I can't say I get approached very often. My W says I'm good looking and a heck of a catch but I don't think I've ever had anther woman ask me my opinion on anything. Of course maybe becasue I work in one of the last "Boy's Clubs" in the military.

Actually, all your advice is good. My W is sure to see them as she reads my thread. She's been practicing responding to the OS, by always throwing "my husband" into the answer. I'll bet she gets a couple of weird looks but it makes me smile to hear. Thanks

No, the serial cheater WILL hit rock bottom and agree to almost anything but then they will backslide. My xH wrote out his EPs and I saw great changes and then there was backsliding. I gave examples of this in the thread already. I have heard Dr Harley say this specifically and I can probably find the link if you want to hear it. Dr Harley has also said a serial cheater can recover a marriage but opportunity for an affair must be eliminated. Having a good M isn't enough for this type of person - they are want to have members of OS meet their ENs.

If LongWay's H hasn't had any backsliding on the EPs or returning to a SSL, then that is a great sign that he's not a true serial cheater.

But regardless of whether your W is a true serial cheater or not, the point of EPs is to avoid temptation. If I was in your situation, I would try to recover the M but I would not want her in the same environment that led to all of her affairs and infatuations. And as I have told you, Dr Harley told me he sees LOTS OF affairs in the medical field. She herself sounded nervous about how she would handle any type of OS attention.

I would not put her in the same environment where she has already told you she will be tempted and rely on her to use willpower. Willpower is not reliable. I would ESPECIALLY not do this when you are not even sure if she is a true serial cheater or not. She WILL do this again if she is a true serial cheater under these circumstances.

Yes I would have gone into Plan D earlier but I am not sure when a person "knows" a WS is a "true" serial cheater...and the way I thought of things when I was younger is not the same as today. If you read my ex's thread you will see that he admits to five As. Back then (in our 20s), two of them I viewed more as short lived flirting and being immature...not necessarily as adultery since there was no physical contact to my knowledge. The EA/PA that involved kissing was still hurtful but I remember thinking I dodged the bullet as far as sex occurring...but really who knows if that is even true given my ex is a lying, cheater lol. I always confronted my ex but back then I didn't expose and admit I minimized things in my own fog.

Just to be clear, when I post on MB, I only refer to A/Dday/OW #1 and #2 since that is when I found MB. There was a ten year gap between those three OWs and who I call OW1 (2008 Dday)...OW1 and OW2 were sexual affairs that lasted several months. Hope that makes sense.

After Dday1 in 2008, the ONLY reason I attempted R was because of my children. I told exWH to get out, exposed, and was kicking everyone's [censored]. My ex stepped up and did many things to provide JC and work recovery. We/he did practice EPs but as SusieQ said...he backslid. After the HORRIBLE fallout of A#1 and me PLAINLY telling WH that he ever cheated again (or even treated me poorly) I would be GONE!! Well, you can see how much that thought sank into his brain!!

After Dday2, some people were still asking me to consider R...ummmm NOOOO!! I don't care if my ex is bi-polar, chemically imbalance, depressed, immature, stupid beyond belief, etc...no thanks. No amount of pills, counseling, or "what ifs" would ever make me take him back and I have no desire to be a 24/7 babysitter.

I do not beat myself for staying though. I know I tried in good faith to recover my marriage but yes there are times when I wish I had walked sooner.

MM,

My exWH was also former military. I don't think you can count on others to clue you in unless you are close friends and share the same sort of morals/principles...and even then that is no guarantee...that is my experience in and out of military. Most people don't want to get involved even if they say they would.

Also, have you considered your WW crushing on patients? I don't know what area she works in but if she is a caregiver, there will be some sort of physical contact with males and there could be innocent/sympathetic conversations that develop into crushes.

I guess I haven't until now. I talked to her about it, she says it's never happened. Maybe only because of the patients she works with. She's worked with cardiac patients (either old or severely unhealthy) and recently she worked in a post anesthesia care unit. They're out the door as soon as they wake up. Her job now was chosen to minimize OS interactions at a day-procedure facility. They come in, she knocks them out, some tech does a procedure, they wake up, she discharges them. There's a few male nurses and techs but her interactions with other OS members will be pretty low. She'll also be busy as crap minimizing the opportunity for socializing. Her last job, with all the sleeping patients, left alot of time for gossip and chit-chat with women who do not value a healthy marriage. That's an affair condition I will be happy to avoid in the future.

I can only speak to my experience in the military. I would trust a brother in arms 10x more than any civilian physician/nurse/tech. And although, I really can't trust any man around my wife completely now, it will be nice to know he would lose an awful lot by engaging her in an affair.

MM,

Was that your letter read and responded to on MBradio on yesterdays broadcast?

If so, what did you think?

Played on WE: 10-29-2013 through 10-30-2013 FYI in case you need to re-listen to it when it gets placed in the archives.

LTL

No, I haven't sent in a letter recently. Was it the piece about EPs? We listen to [almost] every broadcast so it's likely we heard it. In the case of the EP response, he just read out the text of SAA (third edition)...kind of a generic discussion. He gave us specific advice last week that was more germane to our specific sitch.

Thanks for thinking of us. We'll listen again when it hits the archives.

Here is your wife's show.
Radio Clip of MindMonkey's Wife's question
Segment #2

Anyone like a good roller coaster?

The last month had been great. I was starting to think that 2-5 years of recovery didn't apply to us. We were the happiest we've been since...ever. I really don't think she has a single complaint in weeks.

But it happened on Monday. I looked back at my journal just to be sure. It was definitely Monday...Veteran�s Day. You see, I had been doing all the cooking and all the yard work, much of the cleaning and most of the family support since fWW started work three weeks ago. I wanted her to come home and have NOTHING to worry about�just to sit down, get a hot meal and as much time with me as the day allowed. It�s still well over 20 hours a week.

But it was on Monday that I realized I was doing most of the work. In fact, on Monday I finished the work on our home fitness room so DW can work out with me instead of parading her beautiful body at a gym. She was ecstatic about this...made her first FB post since D-day how awesome her husband was. It got 60 likes. Then I tucked her in early because she was tired and I wanted her to get a good night sleep. I didn�t even consider SF. We had a two week running record of daily SF so it wasn�t a big deal. But as I went about the rest of the evening, putting the kids down and packing lunches for the next day, my Taker started making a list of everything I do for my W and everything she doesn�t do for me. And it�s Veteran�s Day�she didn�t even mention it. Shouldn�t she have made the day about me?

I wasn�t that upset by Monday, I just recognized that my Taker was fighting for control. On Tuesday he did. We were in a certain stage of SF and POSOM pops into my head. I try to get him out but I can�t. I�m dead in the water. I�m embarrassed. We both know which elephant in the room is to blame but we don�t talk about it�no talking about the A. So after what feels like 20 minutes of pure silence on both ends I tell her this probably isn�t going to happen and I�m going to go downstairs. I ask her if I can get her anything. She says, no. So there I sit on the couch getting angry that POSOM ruined another perfectly good shot at SF with my W. That�s when my Taker reminded me that I was doing everything and not getting enough in return.

The past two days have been miserable. We�ve barely said anything to each other. I�ve slept in the spare bedroom. Mostly because I don�t sleep much anymore and I hate waking up in a cold sweat with my wife sleeping soundly next to me. I wish I could give her my nightmares. The woman I would have sworn I was in love with three days ago, I cannot look at without seeing her treachery and the horrible pain she has bestowed on me�And, I get to �let it go� and �move forward� while she gets the marriage she�s always wanted.

I�ll say today has the prospect of being better. We talked a little this morning and she understands my complaints. I told her I�m not feeling much love for her right this minute but gave her a dad-type hug. I didn�t want to be a complete jerk as I was leaving for work. I figured saying �I love you� would be a dishonest and not saying anything would be cold. We�ve got a great date night planned tonight that has the potential to put us back on track (or be incredibly awkward).

I don�t have a question, just being fair in my updating. It�s not all rainbows and butterflies.

Right there with ya, bro. Been there, done that. It can be rough, and that thought when it occurs feels... not sure how to describe it, but "unmanly" comes to mind.

When it was at its worst, re-reading this article often helped a lot: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

It feels unfair, for sure... but one thing Dr. Harley stresses is that male & female brains are different. I can't find the quote right now, but one of his basic positions is that men typically blame themselves for the affair, while women typically blame their husbands. He usually recommends that an unfaithful husband must be penitent, "hat in hand" (his words) about his affair for recovery to begin. On the other hand, if that standard were applied to women who cheated, many would choose divorce over admitting fault; they see themselves as the victims, not the perpetrators. So usually when recovery begins with an unfaithful wife, she's not yet remorseful.

Eventually, if you recover, she will be remorseful. Once she falls in love with you again, she certainly will be. But frequently, that remorse is expressed not by her words, but by her actions. Consistently following the rules of Care, Protection, Time, and Honesty for the rest of her life is, in my opinion, the ultimate expression of remorse for her actions.

Please never mistake my plain statements of how things are for how I think they ought to be!

MM, don't push yourself into the point of resentment by giving your Giver free reign and ignoring your Taker. The things you do for your wife should be things you are enthusiastic about. If you start to feel unenthusiastic, stop doing them, at least until your feelings change - look for some other way to meet her needs.

When you sacrifice, eventually your Taker wakes up and starts saying "What about me?" and then it is out of control - your Taker won't think of your wife at all, while your Giver won't think of you at all. You have to be fully integrated, bringing your Giver and your Taker both into every decision you make and everything you do.

Hi MM:

Sorry you are in one of the rollercoaster "dips".

I agree with Markos; you are sacrificing. You OWE it to your fWW to STOP SACRIFICING. It is hurting your marriage. I will remind you that integrated partnership is the goal, not one or other of you being in control.

(Notice the handy-dandy weapon your Taker uses when you let your Giver run the show? Wow... wouldn't THAT be a great weapon for our military to have in their arsenal!!??)

So, what can you negotiate not doing? What are you unenthusiastic about? (Notice, it is not "unwilling to do", but "unenthusiastic".) And recall, Dr. Harley says each opportunity for conflict resolution is an opportunity to make LB$ deposits...

It's hard. I'm the only male child in my family (five sisters). I've been getting less than I give my whole life. I almost don't recognize sacrifice.

For example on Tuesday she wanted to exercise while I made dinner. I wasn't bothered by it...you could even say I was enthusiastic at the time. I love to cook and she loves to exercise. She really can't exercise AFTER we eat and we didn't want to postpone dinner as to not interfere with the rest of the evening. We basically PoJA'd that I would meet her needs and she could engaging in IB. I agreed to it enthusiastically. It didn't bother me until after our failed SF attempt interrupted by images of POSOM. If this makes sense: I was allowing a minor $LB withdrawal (IB) for my #1 EN (big deposit). It's good business sense. Only after the deposit bounced did I recognize the lower balance.

I can't really be upset about what I enthusiastically agreed that's already happened.

I should probably start by not being enthusiastic about ANY IB for the time being. I should probably assume I'll regret it later (I generally do). I just feel so rotten. She wanted to exercise on Tuesday because she had a hair appointment yesterday and a date night with me today. I'd feel like a real turd saying I'm not enthusiastic about you exercising while I make dinner, even though I don't need any help in the kitchen. Just the same there was a better solution out there. We'll work harder next time to find it.

Sounds like we have some work to do on PoJA, but I don't see what any of this has to do with POSOM once again interrupting a perfectly good bedroom session.

Allowing a minor love bank withdrawal is not good business sense, or good marriage sense either. It sets you up to become resentful. Resentment over the past is triggered by resentment in the present.

It sounds like you violated radical honesty, if you realized that her exercising would be something you weren't enthusiastic about, but decided to make the minor sacrifice anyway.

Or else you thought you'd be enthusiastic, but you now know you aren't enthusiastic about that situation after all - so now you have more information about yourself, and you know not to make this agreement again.

By the way, I don't think you're using the term IB correctly - it doesn't mean time spent alone. It means behavior engaged in as if you don't exist, behavior that does not take your feelings into account.

You don't? Really? It is PERFECTLY in line with your Taker. He wants what he wants, and he will use any and all weapons to get it. This is one of his most effective!

The way to CONTROL the situation (my suspicion is that you are big on controlling the situation...) is to stop sacrificing. Which may have been a habit that is so ingrained in you that it will be a real challenge to even recognize it, let alone head it off at the pass...

How about you have a conversation with your fWW about this? That you have a HABIT of sacrifice (or "compromising" or capitulating, whichever it is.) And you need her help in overcoming it. Because it is harming your marriage. (You don't have to talk about the consequences... POSOM visiting you in the bedroom...)

And then PoJA for the solutions, including an accountability program for you with her. You are working towards an integrated partnership, not two individuals working the marriage only from their side of the street.

And it is a gift to your wife to allow her to help you with this.

What do you think?

As far as the dinner-making thing goes, if it were me, this answer is simple and I am NOT being a turd by saying it.

"I'd love to brainstorm alternatives to you going to the gym while I cook."

I'm not flat saying, "I'm not enthusiastic about it," -- which is a bit of a conversation-stopper sometimes! -- I'm INVITING her to brainstorm with me.

Those key terms Jennifer Harley Chalmers taught to us years ago keep coming back to me:

• "I love it when..." to reward behavior that deposits Love Units.
• "I'd love it if..." to talk about behavior that your partner engages in which remove Love Units (Love Busters).
• "I'd love to brainstorm with you about..." when you don't merely wish to express disapproval or approval, but want to invite conversation and enthusiastic agreement before you take action.

Good luck!

Markos,

In my case there's a little nuance here. When my wife was having her A, exercise was her life and it was unquestionably IB. I felt terribly neglected. If it's not handled correctly today, it can be a huge trigger for me. Up until very recently, we always exercised together to avoid this (which in hindsight would have been the better option this time).

Thanks for clarifying the more classic definition of IB. No one besides me would get why I would tend to over classify things as IB, particularly exercise.

If you POJA the exercise and are in enthusiastic agreement about her exercising alone, then it is not IB for her to go and exercise. You may have changed your mind about your enthusiasm later on, but that doesn't make it IB on her part. She was following through on an agreement that the two of you negotiated. If she went without your consent, that would be IB.

Did you change your screen name, Mindmonkey?

I totally get it. During the A, my FWW typically used her exercise time as an excuse to phone & text OM between sets, and encouraged me to exercise alone at the gym so she could phone him while I was out of the house.

Remains a bit of a trigger. I enjoy working out with her. I no longer enjoy working out alone as a result.

If it were me, I'd introduce it this way:
"Sweetheart, I am no longer enthusiastic about either of us working out without the other in the gym. When we go together, I'm happy, but not when you or I are alone. How would you feel about brainstorming a solution together?"

Get the conversation rolling, and expect it might take more than just a few minutes of brainstorming to figure out the best solution for the two of you. Our best solutions typically take days or weeks of evolution to reach full mutual enthusiastic agreement, and often we have a number of false-starts where we are initially enthusiastic, but upon realizing the ramifications are no longer so and need to adjust the agreement.

No, sorry.

It looks like my W opened an account and left it logged in. I'll have to check in the future.

Doesn't really matter. I've got bigger worries. I absolutely HATE that evil woman who cheated on me, TWICE. She is downright ugly to me. My beautiful loving wife may be in there somewhere (I'm guessing) but all I see anymore is that evil witch that slept with other men.

Be sure, she is NOT acting wayward. Quite the opposite. I think I'm starting to lose my mind. Every time my head goes to wandering, I think about the HUGE. STEAMING. LOAD OF CRAP that was inserted (without invitation) into my life, and the lives of my children. I'm coming to the realization that I may not be able to do this. I don't think I can forgive and there isn't enough just compensation in the world to cover serial cheating.

Are you being triggered?

How much UA time are you getting?

Last year, I had a really good discussion with Dr. Harley on the radio show about how to POJA and not sacrifice on minor issues. I am attaching the radio links. Pay particular attention to the last half of the call.

Radio clip on Mr. and Mrs. Eureka's call
Segment #2
Segment #3

Yes, it started when I did something in bed that OM did, but that's not the problem. Any other time I've been triggered, the pain fades within a day. It's been going on for four days and I'm thinking this will never get better. For the first time, I'm seriously considering throwing in the towel. I'm not a big enough man to get past what she has done.

We've both learned a lot. Maybe it would be best if we applied those lessons to fresh relationships that we don't have to resurrect from the ashes. (I assume) she's learned to avoid OS friendships and their bedrooms, and I've learned to never trust unconditionally again. Meeting ENs and avoiding LBs? Starting fresh, without the stain of infidelity, I have no doubt I could handle those and make someone very happy...someone who won't sleep with other men. It's not asking too much.
U/A time: We were getting plenty, well over 20 hours until I was triggered four days ago. Since UA time only counts if it enjoyable, I'd say about ten seconds since then (when she rubbed me in an intimate fashion this morning). She "wanted" to have some SF. It felt good and wrong at the same time. I won't use her.

I left out an important detail. After I was triggered I posted on another forum. I really lost faith in the MB way of handling resentment.

Anyway, the posters said the most horrible things about my W (and me for not manning up and tossing her to the curb). The worst part is, no one said anything I haven't thought to myself before.

I am so confused.

Are you in recovery, or not? Is there still an affair, or not?

This doesn't sound like recovery talk.

If you are in recovery, please don't use Marriage Builders as a place to vent angrily and disrespectfully about your wife.

You know, feeling bad doesn't mean you have to talk bad.

I've spent a lot of time on other forums. I'd say I wasted about a year there. It only made things worse listening to a bunch of people giving out advice who themselves were in broken relationships. The great thing about hanging around here is you get advice from people who have been successful. Big difference. Learn from my (and now yours as well) mistakes.

We would all sleep with someone else, under the right circumstances. You and I both. There isn't some other woman out there who wouldn't do so.

Stop dwelling on the resentment and get back to those 20 hours of UA. And don't sacrifice anymore, not even for little things. You were right on track, and you can get back there.

Yes, but some are less likely to do so and I would be more prepared to protect against this in the future.

I've always had much respect FTF. I have learned from many different posters, both as positive and negative examples. I think the real question I'm struggling with is "should I recover?"

After the first A, I told her if it ever happened again it was over. She made the choice to go down the exact same path (and farther), and the consequences were clear. I'm having a hard time saying, "Okay, fWW, I really mean it now...if it happens again, it's over" That's not the kind of man I want to be.

Not really - it all depends on what circumstances people place themselves in in life.

take a step back for a minute and look at what's happening.

You're letting you instincts control you thoughts right now. All of this started recently because you let your instincts guide you. You listened to what your giver was telling you and now your taker is out in full force.

Your giver and your taker are both whispering in your ear at different times. They compete with one another for control. Neither one of them agrees with the POJA! The POJA takes time and practice to become a habit that overrides your natural instincts one way or the other. The magic of this is that when both spouses do it, it satisfies both the giver and the taker inside of both of you.

Okay. You want to know the truth? I blame myself for her second affair, and I often feel she does too. I guess I got carried away meeting her ENs as my own form of JC. The giver was out of control. Then the taker tells me it wasn't my fault so what the heck are you doing.

For the record, the only thing my taker wanted the past couple of days...is out. But I think I'm backing away from the cliff slowly.

In the shower this morning, I thought about what my Giver and Taker would look like. I defaulted to an image of a devil and angel on opposing shoulders. But I guess they are actually both a little bit of each?

Did you get a chance to listen to these?

What do you think?

The "giver and taker" model from MarriageBuilders has further convinced me that every person on the planet is of at least two minds about any given topic. If they apparently only embrace one position on an issue, you can be certain the other side of the coin is there lurking somewhere in their brain, even though publicly most people will deny it because they desire to appear consistent.

It's really helpful for me to think of what the two opinions are that my conversational companion probably has, and discuss the alternative he's likely to be considering. This makes for some very, very interesting conversations, because honest people will admit they've thought about it, and often thought through the ramifications of both lines of thought in great detail.

You are to blame for neglecting your wife. You can fix that going forward. You are not to blame for her Affair. It's really hard not to connect the two together, but they are two different things.


You know why? Because listening exclusively to one or the other will prevent you from reaching your goals in marriage and that will ultimately cause YOU harm.

MM:

Yep. On the roller coaster. It blows. And you don't control it.

You don't deserve to be there, and your fWW's A's (either of them) are NOT your fault.

The difference now is that, since you found MB, you have some tools to make your M better than ever. You did not have this toolkit before. So, going forward, things CAN change. You (and your fWW) are not doomed to repeat this situation over and over again. Continue following the plan.

It sounds to me like giving up sacrificing, for you, will be harder than actually doing it all yourself.

MM,

I have been following along, but I don't post too often.

I had a huge amount of resentment for a long time. I think it was exacerbated by our false recovery. In any case, Dr. Harley had some comments about resentment. He said something along the lines that if there was still resentment, then recovery is not complete. Soooooooo, what H and I did was to continue to work the program, as closely as possible without deviation (we had our slip-ups). After a period of time, we were back in love and my resentment dissipated.

Work the program!!!!

AM

Relevant quote to support armymama's statement here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

Also this.
Resentment Type A and Type B

We had a talk on Saturday following a long run. One thing that was very obvious is that we really haven't talked about each other�s EN since a few weeks after Dday. We had planned on doing them weekly (Sundays @ 3:30) but always got wrapped up in other UA stuff. I think we figured that since we were happy, we didn't need to slow down and figure out if our needs were being met properly.

So we talked about that and agreed that my needs were being met but my giver was in overdrive. My taker took over at the slightest trigger and caused a prolonged period of resentment and anger. Doing much better now.

W is pretty good at helping point out my sacrifices, now. I really have a hard time seeing it. I was turning her socks right side out before washing them the other day (thinking to myself this is annoying, why doesn't she just put them in the hamper right side out?) and she told me that was sacrifice. Whaaaaat? She asked if I was enthusiastic about it. "Well, no, but it's just socks." My life is FULL of that kind of minor sacrifice. I've got to get better about complaining.

Mindmonkey, I had been meaning to find and post the link to this thread for you for a week now. I hope it helps you as it did me. Though it does take some time for it to sink in.

Using Resentment as a Punishment

Also, Dr Harley says that it easier to change an annoying habit than it is to change our reaction to it.

Practice saying "I would love it if..." when you complain. Repeat and repeat until the habit changes.

Can you see how this is also demanding and disrespectful?
You are saying "She should just turn the socks right side out before putting them in the hamper. Why doesn't she just do it the right way?"

Stop turning them right side out for her -- not only to stop the sacrifice of doing it for her, but to stop the disrespectful judgement that THAT is the way it should be done. Perhaps she doesn't care, in which case you are sacrificing for nothing. If she wants them turned right side out, she is perfectly capable of doing it herself.

Socks don't get clean if they are in a crumpled up inside out ball. That's a fact.

Another thing you can do is refuse to wash them if they are like that. Toss them in a pile for her to deal with.

Is it? I never turn anybody's socks in the house right side out, and they somehow manage to get cleaned.

The fact is that it is disrespectful of him to assume that the way he wants the laundry done is the RIGHT way to do it. It may annoy him that she doesn't do it his way, and she may be willing to change to do it his way, but he cannot assume that his way is the RIGHT and ONLY way. She is a grown woman and is perfectly capable to deciding if she wants her socks turned right side out when washed.

First - he did not say anything about "a crumpled up ball" - just that they were inside out - but even if they are in a ball, it's not for him to insist on this "fact" with her. They are her socks; he is not being asked to wear badly-washed, dirty socks. He can load up the machine with the socks as they are and let his wife make her own decisions when they come out badly washed.

He could respectfully suggest that she turn her socks out before putting them in the basket so that they come out of the machine clean, but he should leave it at that if she does not want to, or if she grumbles, or says she will and then never does it. Educating your spouse is specifically identified as a lovebuster by Dr H.

Second, refusing to wash them and tossing them in a pile for her to deal with is unpleasant, mildy aggressive behaviour. That behaviour would be detrimental to the marriage.

He can ask his family members to put their laundry in the basket in the way that he would like, in order to make his chore more bearable or easier.

He can give up dealing with the family washing if his family members will not cooperate with his requests. He could negotiate individual responsibility for laundry, or a shared rota, or ask someone else to do it (I did not check how old his kids are; could they do it, or his wife, or a cleaning lady?) or he could negotiate something else.

What he cannot do is get annoyed and become nasty to his wife, which tossing her socks in a pile would be doing.

"Facts" have nothing to do with respect.
"Facts" are very often subjective, as well, when one spouse "knows" something the other does not.

Respect is so key in a good marriage. If we suggest disrespectful behaviour to spouses we are encouraging them to harm their marriage.

My wife gave me this lesson three weeks into our marriage. I complained that she had destroyed a favorite T-shirt with a logo on it by drying it right-side out on high temperature.

She matter-of-factly said, "You can do your own laundry from now on."

We'll have been together twenty years, and the only time she's ever done my laundry since has been when I was injured and unable to do it myself. It would deposit love units for her to do it, of course, but her memory of my anger at the ruined shirt has stuck with her for two decades!

***EDIT***

Exactly, which is why I suggested the "I would love it if.." phrase



Nope, it's a boundary. I refuse to wash kiss' clothes if they are on the floor after I have told him that "I would love it if..". Not doing as I have asked is disrespectful, IMHO. But I don't get heated about it.

Exactly. I don't see how that is different from leaving behind clothes that are not ready to be washed.

***EDIT***

***EDIT***

Maybe you could listen to Prisca then, since she's not debating about how to clean socks and is instead pointing out (along with SugarCane) that some of the things you were posting would've been disrespectful if the OP used them in his marriage.

Hmmmm, nope don't see anything disrespectful here. In fact, Both of those sentences are what I have heard Dr. Harley say.

Well, maybe you're missing something. Anyway, it's probably best not to keep this little sidetrack going.

Interestingly enough, disputes over socks are one of the examples Dr. Harley frequently uses on the radio show...

Nothing disrespectful here. I would not want to touch someone else's nasty dirty socks if they were inside out.

This would be an annoying habit that I would respectfully ask to be stopped. If it didn't, then I would not touch them. That's not being disrespectful to them, that is being respectful to me . Do you see the difference?

That is pretty disrespectful, and would be detrimental in a marriage.

Dr. Harley would never advise these actions, RQ.

I'm sure. Look how we got and it wasn't even our socks!

Okay, the fact that you can't see why it is disrespectful is why it was necessary for SugarCane and Prisca to step in and post about it. As I said, you are missing something.

***EDIT***

Please help this couple using Marriage Builders concepts, not personal opinions. Thank you

*email sent

Going to disagree with you strongly on this. Not doing as you have asked may be cause for Type 2 Resentment, but it's not disrespectful. My wife asks me to do a lot of things that I cannot or will not do. We negotiate, and if unable to follow through on that negotiation we renegotiate.

Case in point: I started a tiling project prior to injuring my back. My wife has asked me repeatedly to "finish projects around the house", including that one. I'm physically incapable of doing so anymore since my back injury, and we need to renegotiate. The fact I am not doing as she asks is not disrespectful. It's a conflict. Not disrespect.

This is all about eliminating an annoying habit, though. If you are physically incapable, that is one thing. But if a spouse is capable and yet (for example) continues to leave their dirty dishes next to the sink even though they know it bothers you, then that is being disrespectful about how your spouse feels about it. It would be disrespectful to say "They are only dishes! Whats your problem?" and continue to ignore the spouse's wishes.

I think the hard part is getting a spouse to stop an annoying habit.

It would also be disrespectful on your part to demand that your spouse put the dishes in the sink, or in the dishwasher, or hand wash them, or whatever just because you believe that is the RIGHT way to do it.

Just because you believe a certain way to do things is the right way to do it, doesn't make it so. And you will get nowhere negotiating the problem with your spouse by insisting that your way is the right way.

You're moving the goalposts on your statement, and you've conflated three separate things. Please realize I intend no disrespect by pointing this out; each thing you described has a specific and different treatment!

1. It's not disrespectful for your spouse to think "They are only dishes! What's your problem?" Our brains invent new ways to disrespect people all the time, and as humans we have very little control over our thoughts. On the other hand, it is very disrespectful to say "They are only dishes! What's your problem?" If you find your spouse saying such disrespectful things and they hurt you, you want to find an inarguable way to let him know. So do not say, "You're being disrespectful". He can argue about the meaning of disrespect with you until the cows come home and you get nowhere. Instead, state first how his actions make you feel, followed by a loving request. For instance, one approach might be like this:
"Honey, it hurts me when you say that. I love it when you smile and thank me for the reminder."
My wife learning to speak this way worked for me. It can work for him! Even when I am frustrated by her request, I will say, "Thanks for the reminder, honey," and work on eliminating my annoying habit of the week, whatever it was.


2. If he leaves dirty dishes lying around, that is an annoying habit. It is not disrespect. The reason I really want to emphasize this difference is because annoying habits are easy to fix; they take about 30 days or so of diligent attention, one habit at a time, with occasional refreshers if there's some recidivism. "Love Busters" has a whole chapter on how to stop them, and it works. The annoying habit you describe is leaving dirty dishes lying around, which is not disrespect. It's just an annoying habit.


3. Lastly, your statement about "not doing as I have asked". Someone not doing something is different than something doing something you dislike. The default position of the Policy of Joint Agreement is "never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse". Now, you cannot very well "not eat". Right? This is one of those few situations where you really cannot do "nothing", else you'd starve to death! I suggest a thing called "provisional enthusiastic agreement".

The approach you use to come to such a provisional enthusiastic agreement is to brainstorm with abandon. My wife and I faced this same issue, and after tossing around dozens of options, we came to a solution a few years ago that -- embarrassingly! -- we still use today. I have little time for dishes and dislike doing them. She has little time for dishes and dislikes doing them. The biggest issue with caked-on food is the plates; typically, the forks, knives, and glasses come out of the dishwasher clean.

So we use paper plates. At almost every meal. And we bear the cost gladly, because nobody has to rinse the plates to put them into the dishwasher! We just throw the plates away, chuck in the utensils, cups, and cooking stuff, and we're done. We always place dirty dishes in the dishwasher, and run it at night. In the morning, we empty it while cooking breakfast together.

Silly, but if silly works, it's not silly!

Mindmonkey, sorry if this is a threadjack, but hopefully helpful for your "scarificing" situation
Agreed!




Agreed and I have read it. In fact Dr Harley has a letter on this site where he advises a woman who is annoyed by her husband's chewing on how to instruct him to chew so that it is not annoying her. So, I am confused why asking someone to stop an annoying habit is disrespectful as Prisca pointed out.



Whatever works!

I'll leave MindMonkey to his thread and let him ask questions about annoying habits and having to sacrifice should he still have them.

Asking someone to stop an annoying habit is not disrespectful. Neither I nor Sugarcane have said as such.

Suggesting that your way is the right way to do something, however, is very disrespectful.

"It bothers me to wash socks that are not turned right-side out" is not disrespectful.

"Socks don't get clean if they are in a crumpled up inside out ball. That's a fact." Is very disrespectful.

Throwing the dirty socks into a pile for the wife because she didn't do it RIGHT like you told her to is also disrespectful.

Sugarcane very beautifully gave several examples of ways that this could be solved without getting into such disrespect.

Eliminating annoying habits should be a joint goal. The simple fact that a spouse finds the habit annoying is all the reason that is needed to justify it's termination. Yet, it is our human nature to want to pile on DJs and AOs, as if these will better make the case. They don't. Spouses need to commit to ending all LBs, and not follow the instinctive desire to compound them. Don't look for reasons why things annoy you. It is sufficient that they do. When confronted by your spouse with an annoying habit, don't ask why it is annoying. Just work to end it.

Not to distract from the main point of being respectful, but dirty socks crumpled inside out in a ball after an hour long workout, tend to not get cleaned properly. And my son's...downright nasty. Now, the boy...I'll call him in to put them right, but I realize I can't do this for my wife. She wants me to just toss hers back in the hamper and let her know I didn't get to all her stuff.

She has agreed to place them in the hamper right side out since I generally do the laundry, and petty or not, it is an annoying habit. And that is the real issue. Before MB, she always felt I was annoyed by her. In truth, I was, but I was never O&H about it and would generally address the annoying behaviors passive-aggressively. So now that everything is getting in the open, she's working on them and I have become a lot less annoyed.

But I�m having a hard time believing that my resentment is due to sacrificing, her not meeting my EN (because she is), or dirty socks. I think it�s due to the fact that she went to bed with two other men. It�s that simple. She gave away something that I can�t get back and the thought of it absolutely DISGUSTS and HAUNTS me.

You know how Dr. H says couples in love see each other as attractive (regardless of the fact that they may be quite homely to him)? I�m sort of seeing the other side of that coin. I�m noticing things about her I�ve never noticed before. That alien who abducted my wife twice and turned her wayward is so incredibly ugly to me. I can�t help but see her when I look at my W, so I often turn away. It�s an unpleasant feeling not being able to see the same pretty face I�ve looked upon for fifteen years. If our M doesn�t work out, it�s not going to be from Lovebusting or failing to meet emotional needs or another affair (me or her). It�s going to be because I can no longer look at my wife without seeing (or feeling) that awful thing she did to me.

But I�ll keep giving it time. Years, I guess. It pains me to think we could be using this time really living the good life�but no�we are spending it in recovery�hope that's not just one more thing to resent.

I think something must be a little off with what you guys are doing for recovery. While recovery is hard work (because you have to learn new habits), overall it should be something that is very good for you: your wife meets your emotional needs, learns not to engage in abusive love busters, or incompatibility love busters, and together the two of you build a satisfying life that you are both enthusiastic about. In a sense recovery should be living the good life!

What's specifically missing? What about recovery is grueling for you?

You should not be dwelling on her affairs at this point. Recovery would be the same whether there had been affairs or not. Focus on recovery, and make it enjoyable. The affairs are in the past. Leave them there.

An obvious issue is dwelling on mistakes of the past. In recovery, you need to keep your focus on building a better future. So what do you do with those doubts and fears? You cover them with the right EPs. EPs make a repeat of the past mistakes impossible. So when your thoughts turn to something that your spouse did, think about how you have set in place ironclad protections that prevent that from happening again. If, upon reflection, you find holes in those EPs, then fix them. Don't indulge yourself with self pity over a lost past that never really existed in the first place.

I'm not quite sure how to say this, but the solution to this is to build the good life, now. Become fantastic friends with your wife, engage in long conversations with her that you enjoy, do things with her that you enjoy, be affectionate together, give each other sexual fulfillment, and build a life together that you enjoy.

Have the two of you considered moving? Many couples find that moving after an affair is when recovery really begins. Your habits (habits of thought and habits of action) are often associated with your environment. Enter a new environment together, and you start forming all new habits of thought and action, and drop a lot of old ones.

I totally get that. That's exactly what we're working on, and most of the time successful. But some days, it just gets to me. She went off and had the fun of an affair, completely disrespected me, and now she gets a great marriage out of it? I applaud the guys that can swallow that pill whole, because sometimes I have trouble. Today is one of those days.

I can say that we really do need some UA time. These past two weeks have been pretty sad.


Well...we did move. Both her affairs happened right before a big move. We're forming all new habits (of thought and action). There really aren't any old habits we carried forward.

That makes perfect sense and I think everybody here can understand that.

But the question is, do you want to let the trauma that has happened to you rob you of the possibility of a happy life in the present and future?


Yes - don't take this risk any more!

I had to do a quick review here to see where your at... by my guesstimation, you are about 3 months since last contact, correct?

Also, you are having a tendency to give in to angry outbursts and bring up the affair, correct?


It isn't all that out of the ordinary this close in that you vacillate from one extreme to another on a day-to-day basis.

The first year of recovery is hell.


What I can assure you of, is that if you eliminate environmental and behavioral triggers, and train yourself to push past those emotional pangs... it does get better.

Gradually, over time, as you rewire past the betrayal with good marital habits and care... it will fade.


But, for that to happen... you have to allow it to fade. You have to learn to push back those images, and redirect your attention.

3 years is a long way from 3 months, I assure you.

Buckle down, and cage the rage.

MM, did you read that thread I linked for you?

RQ,

Yes, many times. While I have to believe the resentment will fade over time, I don't believe I'll last long enough to see it happen. It's not just resentment that I struggle with. With two sexual affairs (with two OM so foul, its downright EMBARASSING to be in the same club), I have lost all confidence and sense of value. She shredded my "man card".

The second affair really changed me. I'm rotting from the inside. I'm becoming more vile than I ever knew I could be. As an act of mercy, for me and FWW, we'll be starting the process for D after the new year. I'll still be left with the resentment but I'll be able to look at myself in the mirror without seeing a sad sack of a man who's value is so low he has to SHARE his wife sexually with multiple OM, just to take her back each time.

You know, I'll always care for her and probably even let her have a positive balance in my $LB but in light of the emotional injury I suffered, the romantic threshold for love is just too high for her to meet. I can't spend five years recovering something that won't work when I could be reclaiming my lost (stolen) pride by standing up for myself and starting fresh.

In light of this decision I'd like to rescind my earlier post expressing a desire to be a beacon of hope for the BHs of serial cheating (sexual type) WWs. It's not going to be me. All that great stuff in the middle of my thread was CLASSIC hysterical bonding. It was was VERY fun while it lasted at least.

And this...

You have every right to divorce your wife for her adultery. Absolutely. But I want to caution you that, in spite of the reason for the divorce, Dr. Harley says divorce is a very painful process as well and sets up its own problems, like child visitation and custody issues and child support.

My H also had two affairs, so I wondered why the heck would I even consider giving him yet another chance after the 2nd one? The reason is because the first time we didn't truly undergo recovery. We had no Extraordinary Precautions. Our counselors didn't even discuss the conditions for the affair. I mean...???? Why would a good counselor skip a very fundamental part of recovery after an affair? She just didn't know.

The result is that we had a lingering painful recovery that went the way of "Forgive and Forget." The marriage sort of recovered, but it wasn't better than before the affair. It was about the same with traveling and IB and dishonesty. My ENs continued to be mostly unmet. Wasn't really much of a recovery at all, not compared to an MB recovery.

So that's why I gave him a second chance. This time we have MB. This time we have tools that we use and principles to abide by every day.

Now if he has another affair after an MB recovery, he's gone.

Would you be willing to consider this as a reason for you to give your marriage a couple of years of recovery? Your wife seems willing to follow MB.

MM, why didn't you tell us the full truth:


What on earth? How is that appropriate behavior to be going on under the same roof as your children, by their father? And how on earth would your wife deserve this? Abuse does not justify abuse, and an affair does not justify revenge affairs. It sounds like your main intent is simply to torture your wife to punish her. This is disgusting.

And this bit of sarcastic and nasty abuse is also uncalled for:

Have the decency to do this right: if your intent is to torture this woman, just SHUT UP and divorce her, quickly and quietly.

And you'll "probably even let her have a positive balance in" your love bank? What, she can be part of your harem? One of your whores?

Noone will fault you for divorce, but if you think this kind of behavior is going to lead to your happiness, I have to tell you that you are mistaken. And if you think this is healthy for your children, again I have to tell you that you are mistaken. And if you think that we at Marriage Builders will cheer you on while you torture your wife for her affairs, again you are mistaken.

Like she said, "not my exact words" Here are the exact words...HER exact words in one of her numerous ILYBNILWY emails.

"I�ve thought before that we actually make pretty good working partners. You don�t deserve to be screwed over, neither to the kids. In essence, what I am requesting is that you enter into a �working� relationship with me. I will come to VA and help you set up the house. I will stay until the kids are a few years older, say; DD is out of high school. In return I would ask that I could be released to go my own way once DD is done with school and you�re done with the Navy. I will continue to be there for the kids, but I would also like to further my career.....I don�t expect you to take a vow of celibacy for the next four years. I don�t know what the answer is to that problem, but I�m open to ideas."

My words were closer to "you had a plan and I think we should put it into action. And I'm not going to SF myself for the next few years, I'd like to have at least a little fun."

In no way was I implying (or would consider) inviting whores into my home where my kids sleep. But I think it's reasonable to expect if she wants me to maintain a sham marriage so she doesn't look like the bad guy and continues to get all non-intimate needs met by me, I don't have to treat my marriage as anything other than that. It's a stretch to call it a RA when the W has me move into the basement for 4 years while she moves on with her life. And, yes, it was a jab at her too.

I think my post above pretty clearly indicated this is my plan. I've become a rotten person and think it best to do just that.

Again with the whores? No...merely stating that I'll always care for and always have a space in my heart for her. It's a shame it's come to this. We REALLY have good chemistry. There will definitely be a sense of loss on both our parts.


1. Not mistaken. I realize it won't lead to happiness which is why I've kept my distance and separated in home until more appropriate arrangements can be made. My happy day will come eventually.
2. Not mistaken. My children will realize the failed marriage is due to the serial affairs of their mother. Certainly not healthy, I agree.
3. Not mistaken. I haven't asked for, nor do I expect a cheerleader. What gave you the idea I wanted a pat on the back for giving up?

But she doesn't want that now though. And you moved yourself into the basement. Just sayin.

You want to divorce her? Go ahead. But all of this "kick her to the curb" stuff is just going to make your life worse. Besides that, it's dishonorable. I wish I could find the clip for you where Dr. H mentions this phrase. It was this year sometime. Maybe someone else can find it.

Just out of curiosity, since you don't like the "MB way" of dealing with resentment, what's your plan for that? You've mentioned it at least twice now and have cited it as the reason you've decided to quit.

MB doesn't have provisions to allow a BS to wallow in resentment. Resentment is a dead end street. It leads nowhere. Like many of our instinctual responses, it is counterproductive to any resolution, even divorce. Resentment expresses itself as anger, and anger makes you temporarily insane. MM made such an abrupt about face because he chose to cave in to his instincts. Following that path is very foolish. It will hurt you in the end, but it is a very natural thing to do.

I'm not sure about that. That particular statement may have been when she was in the fog, but for the past 15 years she has always made sure I knew she regretted marrying me. And that she only married me because she didn't have the confidence to take care of herself after leaving home, and she only had kids because I wanted them. She�s always dreamed of trying to make it on her own...no kids...no husband...no restrictions. Just because she said this stuff while in a fog as well, doesn't mean she doesn't feel that way actually.

I'm not just blowing smoke here. I truly believe many of her behaviors (including the As) were so that I would finally give her wish of independence. She didn't have the confidence to pull the trigger so she has forced me to do it by crossing an "uncrossable line". After the first PA, I was too weak to pull that trigger. So, in the years following, her IB and SD increased tenfold and had a more brazen affair just to push the envelope...Yes, I think she wants this (D) but still isn�t ready to be the one who does it. Frankly, I'm still struggling with the required intestinal fortitude needed as well.

The only time I ever suggested kicking her to the curb was within the first 20 minutes of discovering the affair. Since then, we've actually discussed how we see dividing assets, who lives where, and CS considerations. There's no kicking anyone anywhere.

Great question but you know I can't answer it here. I've thoroughly accepted every MB concept except handling resentment (I've got mountains). I've read multiple other books. One in particular is overall MB heavy but it handles resentment differently. Again...non-MB so not posting it. Wife doesn't want to do it because it's non-MB. I thought as the BH one of my conditions for repairing the M was for my W to commit to a recovery program of MY choice. I guess that's only if my choice is her choice.

I know I don't have to tell you this, but I think there's some misunderstanding about resentment in the world, particularly on the part of the unfaithful. The resentment is not only about the sex with AP, although it's definitely part. Once a BS finds out about the affair resentment comes from everywhere. I have to move, I have to change jobs, I have to take ADs, I have to spend countless hours reading books I never hoped to need, I have to snoop non-stop, I have to expose and be known as the guy who got shamed AGAIN, I get to lose sleep, I get stress headaches, I get nightmares, I get an STD...you get the point.

Oh, and my favorite thing to be resentful about, the thing Dr. Harley told me on the radio show...There is only one LOGICAL and INTELLEGENT choice when kids are involved (at least in our case), and that is recovery...Although I agree with him, it pisses me off because it's not really a CHOICE if there's only one option, is it? She routinely abused me with IB and sexual affairs but I don't really have a choice to do anything other than R. Here�s the truth�most of the time I WANT to R, but she and MB says I HAVE to (otherwise I'm making a non-intelligent and EMOTIONAL decision). How's that for resentment. She has an affair again and gets to tell me I HAVE to recover or I'm being stupid.

Dr. Harley thinks I may be suffering from some form of obsessive personality disorder. I don�t think I SOUND obsessive. Plus in my line of work I get a full mental workup annually. Granted I haven�t had one since Dday.

That's wayward thinking.

You have a number of choices. You can choose to recover. You can choose to simply and quietly divorce.

What you are choosing to do, instead of either of those, is to punish and abuse your wife. That is not healthy for anybody. Not her, not your kids, and definitely not you.

Any program that would allow you to hang on to your resentment will NOT lead you to recovery. Your wife is right in refusing to go that route.

The idea is that it should be a good program, one that works.

Right now it appears that you want to handle your resentment by punishing your wife. This won't work, no matter what program it's in.

I'd be curious to see what this other program recommends about resentment. I think you should post it.

My dad divorced my wayward mother. He made an honorable choice. He did not do what you are doing about resentment. I don't remember him ever once talking like you are talking, although he certainly hurt terribly (I remember him waking up in the middle of the night wailing and crying).

Today he is very healthy, as am I.

Taking your resentment out on your wife will not help you recover at all.

We want you to recover and I believe everyone here respects your right to divorce your wife. But punishing her is a terrible choice. Citing what she has done to you as an excuse to do things back to her is only going to help you wreck your life.

What does it matter who detonates the nuclear bomb? In the end, you're all dead.

MM, you are basically having one big massive angry outburst in posting here.

I see little hope for any sort of recovery for you as long as you act like this. You are headed for a life of pure misery, ruled only by your emotions, with an inability to use reason to build a life that makes you happy.

I feel for you - the recovery process for betrayed husbands SUCKS. In my case, my wife wasn't even willing to work the program, until she had fallen back in love with me. And she was extremely disrespectful and abusive to me.

But I was stuck in that same situation: would I throw my six children to the wolves? And probably miss the best chance I had at future happiness?

When I found I couldn't go further, I got on antidepressants, and found that I could keep going. And we recovered.

We will all support you if you want to choose divorce.

We will not support you in abusing your wife. Just because you are pissed off does not mean you have to act abusive. When your children piss you off, are you going to abuse them as well?

Your real problem is your anger. You believe that other people can make you angry. It makes it impossible to recover your marriage, it will make it impossible to have a good marriage with someone else. It is dangerous for your children, and ultimately it will lead to it being impossible to have a lifestyle that brings you happiness.

I'm reviewing some of the things we previously posted to you about anger management. It looks like you've left all that by the wayside.

Married or not, a desire to blow of steam at people when you feel frustrated is dangerous:

Your wife's affairs and the things she said and did in her affairs are not the reason that you are angry. That BS doesn't fly here.

Nothing your wife can do is the cure for your anger and resentment. No other program can prescribe her to do something that will fix this for you.

I must have missed this. You blew off everything we had to say about anger, with the excuse that we who aren't newbies can't understand how you feel. What you wanted was commiseration, rather than a recovery plan that works.

End result: no recovery.

You are coming across very angry. You are arguing points I've already made: I realize I was punishing my wife, and even wanted to. I don't want to be that type of person anymore. It's gross. I think I made it clear before your 12-post rant.

I've already been cited for posting non-MB advice so I'll turn down the request. But, it doesn't allow the BS to "wallow" in resentment. It does expect the WS to aknowlege the elephant in the room of resentment and apologize frequently within the first two years as a matter of validating feelings of the BS that were distorted by months or years of gaslighting. It's supposed to encourage feeling safe in the marriage. I don't know.

MM,

Sorry if I missed it, but is your WW not meeting your need for sex, or meeting it as a matter of obligation, or without any desire on WW part?

God Bless
Gamma

Great.


That sounds like the psychological approach known as flooding. Flooding is a good approach for overcoming some traumas. But in the case of affairs, it usually only serves to make the resentment last and last.

Prisca did a lot of disrespectful and abusive things to me. She does not apologize for it on a regular basis, though, and I don't apologize to her regularly for my abuse, either. Last week I was triggered into memories of her affair. She didn't even know, because I did not tell her! We have a very happy life and I don't feel any resentment at all.

This will keep the affair on the front burner and is doomed to fail. Your resentment will not fade, and her resentment over being forced to dwell on mistakes of the past will grow. This IS wallowing.

Your wife is right in refusing to go down that road.

You are not the expert and telling me what my real problem is. What if I told you I drink a fifth of alcohol every two days. I never said I didn't. Would alcoholism be my problem? DW thinks that's a real possibility. Dr. Harley thinks I'm suffering from obsessive thinking and need therapy/AD. Is that the real problem? That's where my money is.

I didn't leave anger management by the wayside. I'm working it. Not perfected it...but working it. And I could be wrong, but I think the one recieving the treatment gets to call the Lovebuster. My wife clearly states it is DJ not AO. She continues to call me out when I'm do it, but mostly I know when that is.

Apologies aren't necessary, though. Wouldn't you rather have actions in the form of EPs and meeting each others ENs, and avoiding love busters, working the POJA, than a bunch of "I'm so sorry" 's?

My H apologized numerous times after his first affair. He even declared that the one thing he learned is that the "grass isn't greener." Blah, blah, blah. No EPs, no ENs, continued LBs. The apologies turned out to be a waste of breath.

The apologies the second time around also meant absolutely nothing to me. What I wanted was action. In the end, he became a new man, so to speak. He was remorseful, but I saw it in his actions and not his apologies.

And really, there are no numbers of apologies that will make this up to you or to any BS anyway. The only way to recover from adultery is a new BETTER marriage with new habits. A marriage that is passionate, romantic, and safe.

Or, of course, divorce is a viable option. However, even with divorce, I have seen terribly bitter people who kept talking about the adultery in their marriage even years later.

Even with egregious actions other than adultery, the best way to leave the resentment behind is to stop talking about it. Talking about the problem brings it into the present, no matter what that problem is.

Thanks Gamma,

She's doing really good with those needs. Very willing and very enjoyable. When there is a problem, it's always me and it's rare. But when there is, it's HUGE to me, and it seems to be realted to "position" (not always, but mostly). Complete smack to the face. No matter how high we are flying, the plane crashes. It's like Russian Roulette. Nine times out of ten its heavenly...but that one time, not so much.

What are you going to do differently, then?

You're right. I'd be that guy.

Sure. I've never suggested talking about it is a great idea. I'm trying to stop thinking about it. That, LWFH, is in the present.

Not justifying, just explaining: All that crappy resentment I DO suck down and keep to myself, and continue to meet EN and avaid LB. Those I can hide. Then...I get triggered during SF (generally position related and passionate kissing) and there's no hiding the result. I'm embarrased, she's shell shocked. Somebody better say something. I would like for her to say anything. Maybe, "I'm sorry kissing is still difficult for you" or ANYTHING to take at least some ownership of my very obvious "defect". But nothing...just me and my sad excuse for masculity. Then the bad stuff happens (or, better yet...I do bad stuff). All that resentment I've packed in comes flooding out in the form of some pretty nasty DJs.

I'm trying to find the best place to break that cycle. Either I find a way to eliminate resentment, become perfect at not reacting to it, or not engage in the trigger activity (SF). I've been aiming for the third option because it's easy NOT to do something. But it makes for a pretty crappy M which is why I think plan D makes the most sense in the long run(and protects her from DJs and emotional abuse). This is why I'm avoiding her as much as I can and why I'm living in the basement.

My interpretation of Dr. Harley's advice is that it's not resentment per se, but obsessive thinking, which can be helped by appropriate therapy and AD meds.

Here's an aside, in response to Dr. Harley's comment that making an emotional decision would lead to a life of unhappiness:

My wife and I have a saying that we took from the "The Phantom Menace" where Anakin Skywalker asks his mother what he should do (in regard to leaving home). She asks, "What does your heart tell you?" I take it to mean that he should go with the emotional descision.

When I'm approached by life altering decisions, DW always asked me that, and she UNQUESTIONABLY trusted the answer my heart gave. It's actually worked WONDERFULLY so far.

It worked for Anakin too...For a while at least.

The biggest thing I've learned here is that I don't have to act on every thought and feeling I have. If I think something disrespectful toward my wife, I don't have to say it, for example. Or if she makes me feel frustrated, I don't have to take it out on her.

Dr. Harley would say that the trying not to think about it approach doesn't work. What does work is removing as many triggers as can be removed, and then not dwelling on it when it does happen.

You couldn't pick a better example of what being consumed by anger will do for you!

I would suggest you just say "I've been triggered," end the sex, and put some TV on or do something fun and enjoyable. Don't talk about it any more than you have to. Yes it would be great if she said something, but she's probably afraid of the angry outburst that will come next and doesn't know what if anything she can do. And as LongWay noted, perpetual apologies don't really solve anything.

And no your resentment doesn't "come flooding out in the form of DJs." Your resentment is not a person and doesn't take action. You do.


Is there basically a problem that you are trying to have SF in a way that your wife did with the OM? Maybe you could just skip doing it that way.

Contrary to all the evidence the forum thinks they have, I am a highly intelligent person. In fact that's part of the problem. My brain is ALWAYS on overdrive.

I've thought about this already and put it into practice. It's not really that hard because she only did it once with him and most people don't get all crazy on their first time. By her testimony, they certainly didn't. In fact, she says even the one time was pathetic. She's always been very adventurous with me, so plenty of ways to skin that cat. For weeks everything had been working great. I mean GREAT.

Here's the kicker. The last time we were making love I reminded myself to avoid kissing too long and certain sexual positions. Now without getting specific, there are some fun positions that border on "impersonal", if you know what I mean. And midway through I realized by doing this, I was not making love at all. I was just having sex. I can't even say it was a trigger. Just a sad realization that one more thing (a very important thing) was taken away from me. I immediately felt like I would NEVER be able to actually make love to my wife. In truth, we've been making love great all along and it has been very personal. But at that moment when the thought pops in my head (however absurd) it literally shuts everything down.

The quick reaction EMOTIONAL response is: "Great! Now I can't even make love to my wife (ignoring the fact that I've done plenty of times). What's the point? I certainly can't be married to someone I can't even make love to. This is pointless." Then follows a series of DJs that I won't write because it just adds disrespect to a thread W will read.

Then Mr. Obsession comes over and commiserates with me for the next 24 hours coming up with plans and thinking about how great single life will be and how I won't have to face my abuser, yada yada yada. Then...Mr. Compulsion comes in and we start putting these half-hatched plans into action. He's a man of action and not prone to emotional distractions so it's real easy to calmly explain to W that divorce is indeed to best and only option and when she objects, I give her another SD to chew on while we handle this very important business. Eventually, Mr. Logic hears all the commotion, kicks me in the junk and says, �WTF man!�

WTF, indeed.

These aren't the ramblings of a madman, just organizing my thoughts. What�s the solution? I think a start is identifying NEVER as a BAD WORD� a dead canary in the coal mine. Hold my breath, back out quickly and don�t make any decisions (or say anything) until I see the light of the warm sun. Then make a LOGICAL decision.

It sounds to me like your reason and rationality is realizing that acting on a feeling of hopelessness is not serving you well and that it would be better when you feel that way to calm down first before making any snap decisions or taking any action.

If so - you are coming to grips with one of the most important, life changing lessons that Marriage Builders has to offer.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The only evidence we have is two radio shows and what you and your wife have posted. I don't remember coming to any kind of conclusion about you, other than that you can sure do an about face quickly, and taking that to be an instinctual response.

Whatever your thought process, you would do well to make up your mind and stick to your decision. Letting thoughts during SF cause you to totally derail is not evidence of a sound decision process. If you choose recovery, you need to stick to it if you are to have any hope of succeeding. Recovery is hard. We know that, because we have been there. Nothing is worse for your mental well being than allowing yourself to be emotionally blown about by the wind.

What I should have said was I USED to be an intelligent and highly LOGICAL person (with a bit of an emotional side). You can't get to my position if you aren't.

The evidence the forum has is that I'm highly reactive and make decisions EMOTIONALLY. That's because I am, for the most part now.

I don't recall your exact sitch but if memory serves it wasn't similar enough to mine for you to make the claim that I'm getting "blown about by the wind". You can't possibly understand how significant something is to ME. You have no idea how "derailing" images of two fat men having sex with your wife can be when they show up during your intimate moments.

I don't think I'll take your advice of making up my mind and sticking to a decision with "whatever the thought process" I come up with. I'm seeing Dr. Harley's point where I should get my mind strait first, separate the EMOTIONAL and LOGICAL outcomes, and THEN make a decision. Easier said than done...

Everybody only knows what they know, and until Dday, I only knew of myself to be extremely logical and very rapid at decision making and by and large my decisions were very good. So it's really taken me a few months and more than a few bad decisions to realize that my previous assumptions were no longer correct, and my rapid decisions were completely void of LOGIC.

I've had to recognize that since Dday, I am now a highly EMOTIONAL person. So to prevent bad decisions I need to SLOW down the decision making process and keep my mouth shut until I can find the LOGIC*. I only hope I�m not this way forever. I don�t like it one bit.

Edit: *kinda like Markos said above.

This has been my antidote to non-logical, emotional, reactive thinking:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

Hundreds (thousands?) of hours listened to, now. Lots of time with a biofeedback meter.

Dr. Harley has a personality test he administers to those he counsels. The test roughly measures how emotional/reactive someone is and how much that affects their decisions in life. I basically scored off the top of the charts. MelodyLane posted somewhere about the scoring range on that test and said that when she took the Marriage Builders seminar in 2007, Dr. Harley indicated that people in that range tend to be in jail, saying basically they had a "Saddam Hussein" type personality.

Dr. Harley told me that my hope comes from the fact that I am very intelligent and can use that intelligence to override my emotional instincts and make better decisions for myself.

Maybe you will find the same to be true for you as well.

You are free to do whatever you want. I am only trying to help you. But Dr. Harley advocates BSs deciding what they want to do, and then putting a 100 % effort behind any decision to recover. I have been listening to the radio show for years now, and I have never heard Dr. Harley tell anybody to go fix themselves first, and then make up their mind after that.

Emotions have no intelligence though. They change daily with the ebb and tide. When you base your decisions on fleeting emotions instead of reason, logic and facts, you are playing Russian roulette with your life. Keep in mind that this is how teenage gurls make decisions.

MM,
You have taken a terrible blow and it is going to leave scars.Dr. Harley has said many times that short of total brain injury the memory will always be there.That's the scars.

You can live with scars but you have to allow the wound to heal. Creating a romantic marriage with your wife and putting in EP's changing the conditions that led to WW" A all are what MB does to help you heal.

But it will never heal if you keep picking at the wound.I.E. your LB's.

Every one here wants to see you make it. IF divorce is what you decide no one will think any less of you.

If you decide that it is in your best interest to save your marriage and have a better one than before the A"s then the path is narrow you can't pick and chose which MB principles you want to follow.

Punishing your wife will not make your HD images fade. Creating a great MB marriage will but like scars it does take time.

I am 2 years and 3 months out from D-Day. Me winning DW back came easy followed MB and worked hard at it. The challenge was to stop dwelling on the fact that we were no longer each others only SF partner... I'm 52 that was a monster believe me.

I trusted in God and what I had learned from MB and keep the course. Well a lot of 2x4's from the wonderful people here helped also!

The images and thoughts faded as DW and I built that romantic relationship here .. now... in the present! MB does work my friend! Best of luck to you
wle2

MM;

How are you doing?

It looks like you are having a very difficult time, indeed....

Mindmonkey, I was happy to hear you talk to Dr. Harley today. I missed the last few minutes, but what did you think of what he said?

Aside from the horror of hearing my own voice muffled by a cold and what must have been a bad setting on a brand new phone, I think the call was helpful. I�m still sorting through what we talked about including some concepts that I really didn�t like hearing.

In particular, he said that most of what she said in the �fog� was actually TRUE. Up until yesterday, I felt reassured by the fact that it was some alien using my wife�s body spouting nonsense during the fog to justify her affair and treatment of me. Now, am I to understand it was really her all along and those horrible things she said were her true feelings? I�m figuring out what this means. On the one hand, it means I have all the answers as to the marriage she wants�a good thing indeed. But I would have rather had those answers without dealing with the pain of infidelity. This is exactly where I get the feeling she had the affair on purpose�just to show me she was serious�like Dr. Harley said �she was setting me straight.� I guess she did in the end.

I also didn�t care for the idea that she had the affair because �I wasn�t there� as Dr. Harley said. That seems a bit like it was my fault. I know that�s not what he meant, but I am sensitive to the idea.


I�ll also note that Dr. Harley did not suggest she separate from me as some people are suggesting she does. He says I need to stop saying things that hurt her before she loses too much love for me. This is something I understand and continue to work on.

Here�s what I gather the next steps are from the discussion:
1. Stop �punishing� her. She did disgusting and horrible things, knows it, and has to live with it forever. The score is even.
2. Stop sacrificing which is leading to additional resentments on top of the one�s I already have. One big exception here is the fact that I have to give up my career which, as Dr. Harley states, has been destructive in my marriage. I am finding it difficult to be enthusiastic throwing away a career because my wife cannot be separated from me overnight.
3. Encourage total openness and honesty so that she can tell me when she finds someone attractive. I think this is going well so far. She told me she found one particular man attractive at her work a few weeks ago and I had no problem with this at all.
4. Practice respectful OH myself so DW knows where she is falling short at meeting my needs. And in the same respect, allow her to meet those needs.
5. Never mention divorce or separation again unless I intend to follow through.
6. Continue with the 20+ hours a week of UA time.

I couldn�t agree more that DW and I are VERY compatible. Like Dr. Harley said, when I�m not angry with her, it�s so obvious that we are each with the right person. I can�t imagine getting divorced and finding another woman that fits me as well...ever.

I�ll revisit the broadcast again if BH can post it after it hits the archives. I�m sure there�s more that I�m missing.

You're on my list, and so yes I will post it.

You shouldn't have had a career that doesn't complement your marriage in the first place. When you choose a career, the first question should be: does this complement my marriage? Or does it harm it? If it does not complement it, which no traveling job does, then it should be rejected.

NO WIFE should be separated overnight from her husband. That has nothing to do with your wife in particular. That rule applies to ANY marriage that wants to avoid affairs. Spending nights apart is an invitation to an affair in ALL marriages, not just yours. It is not a sacrifice to give up something that has been terrible for your marriage, it shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Btw, Dr Harley and Joyce travel and they never spend the nights apart. Even when Joyce goes to women's retreats, Dr Harley goes with her!!

Yes, I bristled when I heard that too and it made me think about my sitch. Kiss said some pretty terrible things about me whe he was foggy. I see a lot of justification in it as well. But, if I look close at them there was some truth to them, just that he exaggerated it. So, I took what he said and cleaned up my side of the street. That's not true for every BS, but I think the point is that we have to take a close look at what we were doing wrong (unmet ENs and LBs) and work on them to show that we are willing to be the spouse they want.


I think his point was that your absence made her vulnerable for an affair but her terrible boundaries was why she had the affair. Not that your absence was the reason. Just like Kiss' unmet needs made him vulnerable to an affair, but was not the reason. My needs were unmet for many years but I didn't have an affair.


Exactly, work the program. Focus on the concepts and I really think that your marriage will look more promising to you. As far as the resentment, that is a monster that you will have to tackle on your own, but time and moving forward will make that mountain smaller and smaller.

I'm going to disagree on a very specific point. You can see from my signature line that I am in the military. I was before I was married. It's the ugly side of the world we live in that we need a strong military, and that intrinsically requires nights (and more) apart. It is a sacrifice for all parties involved for the greater good.

We can't have a military made up of single men and women. It wouldn't work for a host of reasons.

Military life is, for many married folks, a complement to their marriage. I thought is was to mine. Much of our personal growth has been a direct benifit of my service. But like any neccessary sacrifice, there is a time limit. My wife just got to that point before me. As for me, I'll be giving up something special to me. Something I was really good at. So I expect some resentment about that until I find something just as special to me that works with my marriage.

Anything that comes BEFORE your marriage will eventually come between you. And being in the military has done exactly that in your marriage. You are living proof of this.

Military life, where couples are separated, is NOT a complement to any marriage, it is a disaster. Divorce and infidelity are epidemic in military marriages.

It might feel like its a sacrifice to quit the military, but the payoff will be immense. It is like quitting smoking, it feels bad at first, but replacing it with great health makes up for those feelings.

I will tell you an interesting story about the effect of military life on marriages. Some Army chaplains contacted Dr Harley a few years ago with their concern about the epidemic of divorce and infidelity in military marriages. They asked him to find some solutions.

Well, Dr Harley decided to STUDY couples in the military who had romantic, passionate marriages to find out how they did it. He sent the word out for any couples who fit that description to contact him so he could test them. He asked and asked and asked and asked for couples to step forward. He even made a post on the military forum.

That was in 2009. He is still waiting for a couple to step forward.

I have just listened to the show, which will be rebroadcast for about another hour, so there is still time for you to listen to it again.

I think the main thing you are missing is that Dr Harley emphasised that it is really you your wife wants to be with and always has been. The major problem is that she falls in love really easily, and that is why she needs to stay away from situations in which there are attractive men - including work situations.

This is what he meant by saying that she had the affairs because "you were not there", and by telling you that her fog talk is actually revealing the truth about her feelings. She wants you to be there every day, and she wants you to be giving her admiration, affection and attention.

You were not there, for long periods when you were deployed, and that absence, combined with her ability to fall for other attractive men, allowed the affairs to happen.

Dr Harley guaranteed that if you were with her every day and gave her the admiration and attention she thrives on, she will never have another affair, and you two will have a romantic and passionate marriage.

It is bizarre that you would see giving up your military career as a sacrifice, when doing so would bring you the marriage you desire. If you had given up that career when you married, you could have had that marriage all along. How can such a gain be a sacrifice?

Did he ever give the chaplains any advice?

People just can't quit the military. We can't go to our boss and say we're not going on deployment. We would end up in the brig. What can be done to help a married couple that has to endure separation?

I would really like to know. I don't think I'll be going on any more deployments but I've got another 3 years on my contract, anything can happen. If I get sent somewhere, should I just give up on the marriage?

Thanks for that perspective. I think I understand that.

I wouldn't be sure of that. If I had given up the military when we first married, I doubt we would still be married. You can ask her on that, but that's my opinion. The military made me into the man I am today. That teenager she fell in love with years ago would have never become the man she needs without it.

In fact, being in an all-male military community has been key to me not having an affair. If you would have asked both of us ten years ago who would have been the spouse to have an affair, we both would have said me, for reasons I don't want to admit. I don't want to speculate but if I had an affair it may have turned out differently. I think I might not have come back and/or she wouldn't have taken me back. In a roundabout way I'm saying if I wasn't in the military, I would probably have destroyed my marriage with my own infidelity by now.

And it's a sacrifice simply because I'm not enthusiastic about it. Not yet at least. All I've known is this life and the great mystery of life after the military (and how well I'll adjust) is scary to me right now.

Dr Harley would really like to know too. He typically tells people to do everything they can to get out of the military. At very least, make sure that you take your spouse on deployments.

The choice really isn't all or nothing. There are many defense-related careers that could put your service experience to good use. You can work for a defense contractor or you can get a civilian DOD job. I worked as a civilian for the Navy for 30 years, and it didn't require nights apart from my wife.

When I told our chaplain upon our D-Day of my husband's affair, he gently shook his head and said, "Look to the right of you; look to the left; it is all around you. You have no idea how many people come to me about affairs."

Until the problem of separation is solved by the military, infidelity will continue to be epidemic.

And it's not just the military - it's any job that requires travel.

Even for those who do not stray, at the very least, people live independent lives, of necessity. And there is little way to meet the needs of each other in any job that takes a spouse away either by way of travel or by too many hours of work.

Our daughter has great admiration for the military, always pointing out the people in uniform to her children. However, early into her adulthood, she refused to even consider dating a military man, because she didn't want the lifestyle. The military is a lifestyle choice.

If you continue to treat her the way you have been, then Dr. Harley would definitely tell your wife to separate from you. The question is whether or not you're going to stop hurting her.

Have you seen this?
Using Resentment as a Punishment

Here's your show.
Radio Clip MindMonkey's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Radio Clip on Resentment

MM did you have a chance to listen to the clips Brain provided for you?
What did you think?

I am going to offer you some unsolicited advice. I hope that you are still around to read it.

From what your wife has posted, I believe a fairly clear pattern has developed. Whenever things start going well, you have a bout of depression that sabotages the recovery. Many of us have experienced similar things early in recovery. For me, it was as if allowing fresh air into my marriage was somehow disrespecting the depth of my pain. I felt that what had happened to me was so bad that my wife shouldn�t be feeling better so easily.

It is important in recovery to keep your eye on the goal. A fantastic romantic marriage is what you are after. Exactly how you get to that place from the place you are now is not half as important as that you eventually get there. There is no score to settle, here. There is no cost to be extracted. There is only the romantic relationship to build. You already know that it will take time, years in fact. It will require more effort from you than anything you have had to do before. Much of the reason why it is so hard is because you have to do so many things that go against your instincts. To begin with, you will have to allow pleasure in your relationship with your wife. Do not let the apparent unfairness of this pleasure torpedo it. It is the necessary first step to get you to the final goal of a recovered romantic marriage.

I�m still around, if for nothing more than to see the advice my wife is getting.

Everything you said is true. Except I�m not trying to settle any score. Not anymore. I don�t want to punish her but it�s really hard to want to make her happy right now. It would be easy enough to do but wanting to is another story altogether. It just feels like I�m rewarding her, and after a few days I start to feel...pathetic. Petty, I know, but that�s where my head is.

So I [try to] keep out of her way and my mouth shut�withdrawal 101. Seems I can�t go into conflict without �abusing� her, so here I sit. It�s not a fun place to be, but it�s safe. She seems to like me here as well. That is unless someone has a magic formula to skip conflict and go straight to intimacy?

Didn�t think so.

When are you going to get your antidepressant meds adjusted?
When are you going to get into anger management?
In short, are you making plans to stop hurting your wife, or should she just move on?

I'm not planning on adjusting meds or going into anger management.

So you're not making plans to stop hurting your wife and she should just move on.

MM,

Recovering a marriage after infidelity is harder than anything else you will ever do. I say this as a retired COL, married to a retired COL, who have had multiple deployments over our Army careers. My H had a drunken ONS shortly after returning from his first Iraq deployment and a 6 month EA/PA with an NCO during subsequent deployment. It was horrible and there was NOT ONE person outside of MB (to include our children) that thought I should stay in the marriage. However, I saw the potential of MB and together H and I built the marriage we both wanted to have. We are very much in love today.

Feelings follow actions. If it is "easy to make your wife happy", then do it. Certainly, in your Army career, you have done many things that you didn't feel like doing.

I really wonder about officers who are unwilling/unable to control their actions. Do you abuse your Soldiers as well if you don't feel like taking care of them?

AM

That's not what I said or meant. I just don't have anger control issues that I cannot handle myself. And my ADs are actually working. I'm skeptical that there is special pill to make this all go away. I'm not trying something new (that may not work) at the expense of something that is working.

What you're doing is not working.

Well, if your ADs are working and you don't have anger control issues, why are you angry and depressed?

That's not entirely fair. I do feel like taking care of her. Just this morning I stood in the freezing rain scraping ice off her car. I did it because it felt like abuse NOT TO. I didn't "educate" her that she should have warmed up her car earlier like the old MM would have done. But when it comes to intimate needs, I'm not feeling it right now.

I hope she can see that she created a new person (me) with her serial cheating and he's trying to figure this crap out...how to live in his new skin.

Separate issue...I'm Navy, but I hear your analogy. And if a sailor's behavior is not conducive to good order of the unit, it's entirely possible that the way he is treated would be considered "abuse" ...to him. But I can't say I've ever been accused by my subordinates as being abusive or unfair.

I'm not angry. And I'm depressed because my entire life was turned upside down. It's a natural reaction.

You know you're arguing with the rescue squad, right? The people who are here to help you, and basically all you are doing is debating with them. I don't see what you're going to gain from that.

You're engaging in a lot of behaviors that are counterproductive for recovery.

Your feelings don't have to determine your behaviors. I can already see you are making a lot of progress in holding your tongue when you think disrespectful thoughts. Eventually it is possible to completely refrain from disrespectful judgments or angry outbursts (several of your behaviors qualify as these) no matter how you feel.

And I know that you may not want to recover, at this moment in time, but there is nothing to be gained from tearing down your progress. And your feelings and desires seem to shift pretty frequently.

So, as an example of how your feelings don't have to determine your behavior:

Feeling: depressed and not wanting to recover marriage
One possible behavior you can choose: griping about how your wife does whatever the hell she wants. Abusive and counterproductive.
Another possible behavior you can choose: keeping quiet until you feel better.
Another possible behavior you can choose: finding something fun to do by yourself

If you're building a tower, and sometimes you don't feel like building on it today, there's no need to tear it down. Just leave it alone for awhile.

It is soooo instinctive to tear it down. Ever built a Lego tower with your kids? Guess what happens when something doesn't go just right for them.

MM - I had to take meds, too. They don't solve the problem, they just make you feel normal enough to work the problem rationally. I know the trail you are on, because I was there myself. I know how hard it is to get over this hill. I also know how much better it is on the other side. Please stay the course. We really want you to survive this. But you are going to have to stay on the trail. Don't argue with us about why the trail goes this way or that, or why the hill is so steep, or why you should even bother when you would rather just sit down on the ground. We are trying to help you.

You wrote this earlier and then wrote that you are caring for WW. As many posts have said, feelings will follow the actions. First, stop hurting each other. Your caustic comments are love busters. Stop making them.

How long will your travel be?

AM

Wise words.

Alright, I'll play this game.

According to Dr. Harley (correct if I'm wrong)..If resentment exists, the two causes are:

1. BS has a secondary gain. Possible. Most people consider me reasonable, but I'll accept this possibility.

2. Recovery is NOT complete...let's see. I LOVE to argue, so let's play. I realize a FWW will always have an elevated position over the BH on MB, but maybe...big maybe...you don't know what you think you know:

Direct from Prisca's comments to FWW (where she tells her to RUN FOR THE HILLS):

Just Compensation IS:

1. Ending all contact with the affair partner for life
Examples: NC letter, phone number changed, email changed ...

No, No, and No. Next.

2. Removing the conditions that led to the affair (Extraordinary Precautions).
Examples: Facebook shutdown, Radical Honesty (no secret second life), job change, no more nights apart ...

No, mostly, No, No. She didn't tell you all about the program she applied to that would have separated us for 3 months. Sure, I was enthusiastic about it, but it still scares me. AAANNDD, she still has OS friends on FB...dudes she knows I hate. AAANNDD she still has over a dozen "mutual friends" with POSOM 1 and 2, so I get to see their smiling faces every now and again.

3. Creating a romantic relationship using Marriage Builders concepts.
Examples: Eliminate Lovebusters, POJA, PORH, meet EN, UA time each week ...

Well...should we really be on step 3? Seems kinda premature. But since we're pushing it...No, No, Yes, Yes, Yes (as long as the time suits HER personal needs)

I'm not even going to reflect on the 16 years of CRAP I get from her folks, with her saying nary a word. Tell me again why I should let go of resentment? I keep getting confused.

MM,

she still has OS friends on FB...dudes she knows I hate.

Were any of them ever flirty with your WW? Did the OS friends have affairs of their own?

AAANNDD she still has over a dozen "mutual friends" with POSOM 1 and 2, so I get to see their smiling faces every now and again.

Are you speaking of friends on facebook or friends that visit the house? Did they know of or support the affairs?

God Bless
Gamma

Ok, well the way to present this list is:

"WW, it bothers me when ... (you still have a face book page with POSOM mutual friends, you have OS friends that I don't like). How would you feel about ... (deleting your face book account or having a joint account with me).

Ranting to WW doesn't work. It doesn't create a passionate marriage. No one falls in love with someone who is disrespectful.

Why would you be enthusiastic about a three month separation?

How long is your travel?

AM

I hate arguing. What motivates my persistence with you is my desire to see you fix your relationship with your wife. The tools are here to do it. You just need to set your mind to the solution.

The problem with resentment is that it is a bottomless pit. Nobody profits by resentment. All those issues that you complain about can be handled effectively and permanently by applying the MB principles to your marriage. Then, bye-bye resentment.

I agree with Prisca that if you don't get serious about changing your present tactics, a separation will become inevitable. So, let's get about fixing this. Take all that energy that you are putting into arguing, and use it to brainstorm on solutions. Drop the righteous indignation, because we already know that as a BS you have been wronged. It doesn't help. Solutions help. Go through that list of non compliant stuff you gave us, and propose EPs that will address the issues.

It's clear to those of us who know Dr. Harley's material that both of these are true in your case.

So, instead of loving to argue, how about you take the cotton out of your ears, put it in your mouth, and calmly learn what to do about those two things?

STEP ONE: CALM DOWN. Remember how you explained to us just a couple of days ago that when your reason finally kicks in, it kicks you and asks "WTF?" It's about time to start listening to it.


We seriously don't care about all the blamefinding. The point here is not to establish who is right or wrong. The point is for both of you to identify and eliminate the behaviors you are engaging in which are counterproductive to a good marriage. When you find one of these behaviors, you don't jump up and down and shout "AHA!" and proclaim your spouse to be wrong. Instead, you communicate factually about the problem, and solve it together.

Your wife is clearly in the wrong on several points. All of these are easily addressed. None of that changes the problem that you are abusing her and need to eliminate your selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts if you ever want to have a happy relationship. You don't get a pass on those behaviors just because she is making some mistakes, just as she does not get a pass on her affair because of your mistakes. Abuse does not justify abuse.

It's time to step up to the plate and do your part to fix your mistakes, or else shut up and leave everybody alone, especially your wife. Abuse does not justify abuse.


Write her a calm letter stating that these three things are conditions that must be met if she wants to recover your marriage.


Add these conditions to the letter, also.


Dr. Harley is very emphatic that nights apart in marriage are a bad idea, and absolutely must be avoided in a marriage that has had an affair.

So, instead of judging her for doing this, you simply calmly state in your letter that she must agree to spend no nights apart ever again, or else you will not be willing to stay married to her.


There should be no opposite sex friends at all. Again, list this requirement in your letter.


These mutual friends have to go, too.

And any friends she knows you hate. All friendships must be friendships that you are both enthusiastic about.

Instead of standing still griping and ranting about these problems, move forward calmly and respectfully to a place where these problems don't exist because she either met the conditions of your letter or because you moved on without her.

But leave the disrespectful judgments out of it. It simply makes you look weak and unattractive.


How long have you been here learning this stuff? How long have you had the book Surviving an Affair? Have you actually read it? Cover to cover?

All of the above should have happened a long time ago. It sounds like you either didn't know these things had to happen (you should have been learning), or didn't know how to get them to happen other than to use disrespectful judgments. Which, again, don't get you what you want - they just make you look powerless, weak, ineffective, and unattractive.

As for UA time meeting her personal needs - it's supposed to. You won't recover your marriage unless your Giver, your Taker, her Giver, and her Taker are all satisfied. If you try to leave out her Taker, you will not recover your marriage.


You guys shouldn't continue to see her folks if they are disrespectful to you. We had to cut my parents out of our lives for about two years because they were so disrespectful. They chose to become much nicer, and we are now happy and enthusiastic about including them in our lives because of the change.

Again, instead of ranting about the crap, calmly and quietly and respectfully cease to put up with the crap. One of the biggest problems in your marriage is the belief in putting up with crap. Your marriage won't recover if your Taker is left out of the equation. Happy marriages do NOT involve sacrifice. If sacrifice is introduced for either one of you, even if it's as a response to an affair, you will not have a happy marriage.


Must be - YOU SHOULD NOT LET GO OF RESENTMENT. I'm not sure where that idea came from. I think a few people posted that to me a couple of years ago, and it's completely wrong and completely contradictory to what Dr. Harley says.

You should stop engaging in selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Feeling resentful does not mean you have to do these things. If you want to recover your marriage, you are going to have to quit letting your feelings guide your actions. Right now, your actions are making it impossible to ever have a marriage that will heal your resentment.

You told us back in August that the NC had been sent.

You were also told, repeatedly, to get rid of Facebook. You never responded.

All of these can be handled without abuse on your part.

What exactly are you doing to complete this step? She cannot do it without you. What are you doing about your lovebusters? What are you doing about POJA, PORH, EN, UA?

While we're on the subject, she shouldn't be meeting your EN at all at this point. Dr. Harley tells women to not meet their husbands EN when angry outbursts are present (which you have plenty of, and nothing will get better for you until you stop denying it and start solving the problem).

I would be enthusiastic because even though I'm very proud of her, she's never been 100% satisfied with her career. The separation would go a long way to fix that. She would have something to "show off" instead of me always being the "belle of the ball".

The trip is only one night. One miserable night. Lots of flight delays and I forgot to pack three very important things.

So much to respond to and so little time. At the risk of sounding argumentative I'll address Facebook:

1. Most wayward should get rid of it because it can refuel the affair, or start a new one. I wasn't concerned with this aspect. I'm still not.

2. What I did not realize is that it is a resentment machine. 6 times now I've had to ask her to delete friends. I told her I wasn't doing it anymore. Even when she told Dr. H THE only OS friends were immediate family, that was not true. And now she still has OS friends. Just because she claims they are openly gay doesn't help when one of this gay dudes was her first kiss. When I'm happy none of them bothered me but when I'm not, they all do.

Really, a social network site shouldn't and needn't be the cause of this much discussion. It's really not difficult; just ban or block the whole thing and have done with it.

Many people live without Facebook. I live with without Facebook. Why is this even being discussed at this stage?

It's not just waywards that get rid of Facebook. Both marriage partners observe all EPs.

The thing about following the MB plan is that a lot of the thinking has already been done for you. Common EPs exist because these problems are common. Take the EP that you should never be separated overnight. This is an extremely important EP. None of us are exempt. If you listened to the radio links I sent you several weeks ago, you will hear how my wife and I struggled with this one. We have not been separated overnight, even though the affair was a daytime workplace affair. We don't have Facebook accounts, even though the affair had nothing to do with Facebook. We observe these EPs because they make our marriage more affair-proof.

Your marriage is a marriage in crisis. You really can't afford the luxury of questioning everything right now. You need to concentrate on implementing solutions. Follow the common EPs. Don't separate overnight. Don't engage in social media. Don't have opposite-sex friendships. These are basic safety rules.

Good grief, just delete facebook. Its not worth it. You can easily stay in touch with family via email.

You are right, the fact that they are gay does not mean they won't have an affair. That's about as reasonable as "He's safe because he's married - he'd never have an affair with me."

Again, instead of arguing about how wrong she is, or whether she lied to Dr. Harley or not, you just lay it out as follows: in order for us to have a chance to reconcile our marriage, you'll have to eliminate all your opposite sex friendships, and all friendships I'm not enthusiastic about. It seems to me you're overly focused on the "AHA! See - she's doing this wrong!" aspect than on solving these problems. Don't win the debate - solve the problems.

You guys just aren't going to make it if you keep cutting these corners.

Did you ever listen to this?

Also this.
Resentment Type A and Type B

I heard a great radio broadcast last night that I thought would be applicable for this poster and anyone else in a similar situation:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=04080
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=04081
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=04082
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=04083
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=04084

MM, are you avoiding posting on your thread again because you've chosen to be selective about what advice you are going to follow?

I suppose so.

I'm just trying to focus on the advice given by Dr. Harley. I'm sure the forum means well, but much of the time it's not encouraging.

For example, when I have to travel overnight:

Dr. Harley - Stay as connected as possible (call/text/skype), DW doesn't go on any GNO & doesn't drink. I don't travel with women alone and don't go anywhere outside of business.

Forum - With all this cutting corners, I don't see much hope for this couple.

Dr. Harley and Joyce have given us good advice. We're trying to follow that, so I guess you could call it selective. And (fingers crossed) I've felt a lot better these past two weeks. Of course that just might be my Christmas spirit.

You are misquoting Dr. Harley. He says, under no uncertain terms, that you are never to be separated overnight. He does not endorse overnight travel separate of your spouse.

If your point is that the forum diverges from Dr. Harley, you are wrong. Most of us listen to the radio show daily and have studied MB principles in depth. You are not going to be successful in sandbagging us.

Thanks, but that's not what he said to me. I have a lot of respect for him and his advice, but it was for me and DW. I wouldn't expect it to apply to everyone.

Excuse me but I just gave DW an hour long massage and put her to bed early. I promised I'd put the kids down and join her in our "sex cave" for a long winter's nap.

I missed the window to edit my last response. It was hasty and rude.

No, Dr. Harley has not endorsed overnight travel. He maintains it is not good for a marriage. But he did not encourage me to quit the military like it has been suggested by the forum. I am not signing anymore contracts (because this life has caused my M to suffer), but I'm not going to smoke a dubie to get kicked out. I have been assigned to a post where I have limited and short overnight trips, but they are part of the job.

His advice to my W on her first phone call to the radio program was to maintain strong EPs. They also talked about some additional actions we should take when I do travel. It was very helpful. On my last trip we followed his advice and it really helped to minimize the "disconnected" feeling we normally get. Plus she sent me some really hot "selfies".

But that is not what you said after you spoke to him:

here

I am confused too. When I expressed concern about your W's job with lots of opportunities for OS interaction, MM, you basically countered the As would have never happened if you were coming home every night.

Your radio show:

Part 1


Part 2

"I need to reiterate that being apart overnight are one of the main conditions that lead to an affair. <snip> I would encourage you not to be apart overnight. If your job encourages you to be apart overnight then I would encourage you to get another job." Dr. Bill Harley


Part 3

I am getting another job. This contract has to expire first. I made this vow in front of God as well as my marriage vows. In the meantime we are doing the best we can.

SusieQ. Your point is well received. The dudes at her workplace have turned out to be quite touchy feely. But she has kept up her bargain to tell me everything. And as long as she's in love with me no other man is a threat to my M. Spending two nights in the next state won't change that.

If you actually believe this statement, you still have much to learn about how and why affairs occur.

I think he was on the 12-02-13 show. Is that correct MM?