Even after a decade, you forgive but you never forget.
Bits of new information have trickled out over the years but I will never know how far the affair really went. She still maintains that she definitely fell in love with her co-worker but it was an EA with some touchy feely moments along the way. I told her I have always assumed she was having sex with him during the affair but it doesn't even matter to me anymore. I told her I am the only one she can clear her conscious with if she is still holding any details back. After saying that, she shared with me how lover boy gave her a back rub with only her bra on one afternoon but it didn't go further than that that since she wasn't ready to continue further at that time, plus there was no alcohol drank when he did that. She said lover boy didn't hesitate to rub her body when they were kissing and embracing, but she said they were both testing the waters as to how each person felt about the other. She said I caught on to her relationship before they went all the way. She said she knew she was playing with fire, and as exciting as it was, she was not prepared to let him have sex with her yet, but she could feel herself breaking down as the time went on. She knew if the affair hadn't been discovered, she is absolutely sure in time it would have happened.
She explained to me how she was so in love with him and how much he cared for her and it was a very exciting time in her life for she thought she had met her �real� soul mate in her life. We all know how deep in the fog they get and how much they lie during the fog state and in the cover up time, but it has been over a decade and she knows my bitterness is gone. It is funny though, that I still quest to know all truths of the affair. I thanked her for telling me about the back rub and it sounds like the details she was telling was truthful. I even sensed she was feeling good the next day and I asked her if she felt better to clear the air and she said she did, but she knew I wouldn�t be happy that she would take her sweater off so a co-worker could rub her back. I said if there is more to share, I can handle it at this stage of our lives and marriage. She said there isn't any more to tell, but she knows she could now tell me more. To be honest, I really don�t know if she ever screwed the guy or not. Part of me still thinks she did and part of me wants to believe she didn�t, but maybe more information will come out in time.

TooSoon,

Did you get a polygraph for your WW?

Did you ever speak with OM to see how his story matches up with you WW? Did you ever expose the OM?

20+ years ago my WW had an affair with OM2, it's really difficult to believe that they never had sex given how long they worked together, and my WW now admits to virtually nothing!

Ultimately it may come down to a polygraph or divorce for me.

God Bless
Gamma

If you feel that there may be more then you should get a polygraph done. Even telling your WW that you want her to take one because you still have doubts that there may be more for her to tell. This may cause her to "remember" more.

Even if she reveals more I would then schedule a test any way.

TooSoon,

Another thought is that there may be other witnesses to affair, or confidants of your WW who may know a thing or two.

You mentioned that the OM had had other affairs in the workplace, I would speak with those women or their husbands.

God Bless
Gamma

I am really past the affair. I will always have some doubt but my family remains intact and I have forgiven her. The price is heavy in these affairs. The guy is long gone since she quit her job. I am very greatful to MB's for it saved my marriage and family. If I never find out the full truth, I have no choice but to accept it anyway. If she confessed today, I would still keep our family together. We made it through a real rough time. It was very very difficult and painful.

We never did a lie detector. She was ready to walk out and live happy every after with her boyfriend and killing their relationship with exposure was my main goal back then. It is rare that I come back here but with the new info, I thought I would mention it, even after all these years. Our lives are like they used to be before the ither guy entered our lives.

TooSoon,

Did your SF come back as well as before the affair or even better, excluding the hysterical bonding period?

A reduction in the quality of my married sex life went on for years and years and is one of the reasons I never forgave.

God Bless
Gamma

Has she ever given you Just Compensation?
What is Just Compensation?

It took years for me to shake the thoughts of the affair. Everytime we did something a little different sexually, I wondered if her and her lover boy did it first or "this way" together. Time heals a lot.

If you decided ten years ago that you had all the information about the affair you needed to put in EPs and protect your marriage from affairs, then you shouldn't be bringing it up again. You were bringing the affair up again when you told her she could only clear her conscience by telling you more. This is what Dr. Harley calls dwelling on mistakes of the past. This usually happens when the present isn't happy. The remedy for this isn't to ask for more details about what happened during the affair, but to work on making your present lifestyle mutually fulfilling. What is it that you find not fulfilling presently?

Actually Lifetime, I never felt I had learned all the information about the affair but I have leaned more as time went on. Even in the last few days, I learned about the back rub and the OM telling her to take off her sweater so it wouldn't get in the way. She feels she can tell me things today easier than before. The conversation came up when we were talking about directions and I said to her "as bad as you are at directions, how could you ever find the OM's house" which was in the country and 45 minutes away. I then asked her how many times did you go there and she said a couple of times which was different than her original story. On Sunday, I asked her more information and she told me about the back rub in her bra. The OM was clearly trying to set the stage for sex, but she said the relationship was not set in as of yet since they were both "testing" the waters. My wife doesn't like talking about it anymore but understands why I am asking the questions. She views the affair as a mistake and wants it buried but I have always wanted to know the details.

I think my wife has generally fulfilled her obligation to help bring the marriage back to where it is today. We have a normal life and similar to how it was before the intruder entered our marriage. As everyone knows, affairs are very damaging but the marriage can be salvaged over time. I wanted to save the marriage for my sake and for the sake of the kids and grand kids and today, I am great full I didn't let my pride get in the way.

What is it that you want to know? How is knowing this information going to help your R?

Are you following all of the steps in SAA?

Are you both practicing radical honesty?

What you are doing now by questioning her is a LB'er. It puts the images of 'him' back in her head and it triggers you.

Having too much detail can actually work against your R.

Anytime the A is brought up it will bring you back to day 1. I try to ask myself before I bring up any topic or complaint 'how is this going to improve our M'.

What do you mean by this statement?

I had every reason to walk away from the marriage back then. After I detected the affair and confronted my wife with what I found, she said yes she was having an affair and the problem I have is that she fell in love with the OM. That was tough to hear as so many on these boards know. I started researching affairs and found this site. If I would have been so prideful to say that I won't take this kind of abuse, I would be divorced today. Things got real ugly back then. She agreed to get marriage counseling but she wasn't willing to quit her job and break off the relationship with her "best" friend. She was totally fogged out. I bought books and read thousands of posts and I started exposure on a step by step basis. That worked for a while, but when the OM showed up in the parking lot of my marriage counselor , that was the straw breaker for me. I told my wife in front of the counselor that I was finished and I was going to her work to expose the affair and I was going to every family member that I hadn't already told to expose the affair. I walked out of the counselling session and left my wife and counselor alone. On my way home, I received a call from my wife and she said she will quit her job and stop seeing the OM. That was the beginning of the long road in recovery.

20 year, I agree with you overall, but I never felt total closure back then and I simply wanted to know what really went on sexually. I have forgiven her anyway with the assumptions that she did it all with the OM but I guess I wanted to know the facts. I think she has finally filled in some blanks for me. WS's lie so bad to cover their tracks that I never knew what was truthful and what was a cover up. I came back to MB to say a decade later we are doing ok but it took that long to get more info out of FWW. MB was an absolute God sent for me.

I get where you are coming from. Trickle truth can be a bitter struggle leaving much resentment. I know that getting all my questions answered out of the gate was a requirement of mine to even consider R.

How would you react if you found out they did have sex and she had lied to you all this time? Then what.

Have you considered emailing the mb radio program and asking Dr. Harley if you should write down a few questions and pose them to her for final closure? This seems risky to me. If you are comfortable with your progress and are following MB to the tee, going back in time could risk your R.

Are you following all the steps outlined by the mb program?

As strange as it may sound, I would not be devastated since I took her back with the assumption she had sex with the OM. I am actually surprised she didn't have sex with him. She was embarrassed to even tell me that she took her sweater off per OM's request to give her a better back rub. That was so thoughtful of him, wouldn't you say? Back then, she stayed in the marriage reluctantly and went through the crying period of losing her best friend. Unfairly so, she was in the driver's seat since wanted him more than me at the time. Dr Harley was right that you have to get them out of the fog for them to become remorseful and apologetic. Yes, I lived and died by the rules of MB's. I am sure I would need to reread everything again but we stay pretty close. We both lost our parents since the ordeal and supported each other well plus we had new grand kids which we enjoy. Being married for 30 years now, I look back and see it as another one of life's past problems, but it ended. I take the attitude that if I want God to forgive me for all of my sins, I need to forgive her for one of her sins.

Then, I say move on. Let it go. Focus on today and tomorrow! Never speak of it again. Ever.


Have you read what Dr. Harley's position is on forgiveness after an A?

I read everything I could get my hands on back then but not for a long time. I agree and actually have gone forward but it was part of our lives and we can now talk about it in more of a matter of fact manner without it being painful. I think the memories are harder for her than me. I think we will stay together till death now.

I know a guy who had a long term affair and he just left his wife, filed for a divorce and married his Lover. He destroyed his family. His kids now don't have anything to do with him. One of my past coworkers had an affair and got pregnant by the OM. Her husband took her back pregnant with the OM's baby. I have talked to her for a few years and not sure if they are even still together. Love/Lust/Infatuation or whatever really make normal everyday happy people do crazy things.

For you or for her? I would contend it is absolutely a LB'er. I can't imagine she would want to ever talk about it again. I also would contend a strong possibility it is keeping you in the past and preventing the type of love you both want to achieve.

Dwelling on mistakes of the past is a dangerous road to tread...in any capacity. This same energy could be focused on improving your relationship now. Don't you think that would be a positive?

I don't want my FWW to ever think of that POS again. Ya know?

You shouldn't be talking about it at all at this point.

It is rare we talk about it at all, but something triggered the discussion. I now feel like I have learned the balance of the unknown pieces of the affair.

I think with her sharing the last bit of information with me that she shared, she feels good to have cleared her conscious and I am glad to have learned the unknown details. If there is more to the story, then she will have to tell me if and when she ever does. I have addressed everything with her in the past but she could never explain to me how she knew where the guy lived. Now I understand why since she had gone there before and she got the back rub. I will listen if she wants to share more with me but I don't think there is more. Thanks everyone for your comments.

What is a BH to do when he never got his questions asked and answered?

When the WW minimized what went on. Then every few years a new bit of truth is trickled out.

The way a WW can refuse to tell what happened the BH can refuse to be left in the dark.

Thanks Road, I would bet there are tons of info withheld from betrayed spouses everyday. There are no perfect ways to end affairs, save marriages, and get all the information from the betrayer. Every case is similar but they have different personalities. My wife is an introvert and is used to keeping things inside and to herself.

TooSoon,

What I have a difficult time believing is that a woman can have such profound feelings of love and all consuming passion and not get physical.

Another question is that if WW is still withholding that the affair was physical can we really have a recovered marriage.

God Bless
Gamma

That is a good question and if it happened, there are only two people that know about it. If it happened, my fww will likely take it to her grave. Our marriage is doing ok but it is different than before the affair. I used to put her on a pedistal and would have never thought she would do what she did, but she did it. She is imperfect as I am. I have decided to simply move forward and to keep my family intact. If she would ever do it again, I would not try and save the marriage. It is too hard and painful as so many of you know. Betrayed spouses are always on the short end of the stick. It is unfair, but true.

Gamma:

"What I have a difficult time believing is that a woman can have such profound feelings of love and all consuming passion and not get physical."

My belief was or is the same as your statement. I always believed she had sex with the OM. She was 44 yrs old and he was 28 yrs old at the time. She claims the relationship built over time at work, lunches and then on to movies etc. She maintains the touchy feely happened slowly since both were feeling out the relationship. She was the older woman and he was the young guy but their relationship grew. She said the kissing and touching started and within 2 months I busted up the affair. She maintains she is sure the relationship would have evolved into a physical relationship but it just hadn't happened yet. There is a chance she didn't have sex with the OM. I took her back assuming she did and I believed she did even though she denied it. Logic tells me she did, and if she did, maybe she will admit it to me someday.

It is obvious that she did have sex with him. You know she did.

I assume EPs are in place to prevent anything happening again? And no contact has been maintained? If so, there is no need to drag information out of her that you already know to be true.

Further discussion of the affair would be disastrous at this point, and pointless as well since you have decided that you would stay with her even if it were sexual.

You need to be focused on recovery, instead. How is your UA?

I hope she is not using the Clinton defense of I did not have sex with that women defense.

LOL, it depends on the meaning of is, is!

BrainHurts:

I was listening to an audio I thought you posted which references "when to know when your spouse is telling the truth, in spite of all the past lies, etc". It was a 2 part audio from the Harley's radio show. I got busy at work and I had to delete it and now I can't find it at all. Do you remember the shows and do you still have the links? Someone else might have posted it but you seem to post links from the radio show so I am thinking you had posted them. Thanks in advance.

TooSoon