Hello. New here, but FWH and I have been reading MB books since 11/2013 when I discovered FWH's on-line secret life. Marriage plagued by LB (by his admission, mostly his LB) and both of our failures to meet EN's. We've been married 30 years. We are both in our 60's.

After discovery of his internet activities I lost respect, and found I no longer loved him. After finding MB we began attempt at recovery, but FWH was not fully engaged. FWH insisted he had told me all when I appealed to him for RH so I would find no hurtful surprises while in recovery. Continued to snoop and 9/2014 found he had lied when I discovered a 6 yr EA with a younger "beautiful!!" co-worker. The emails were so painful to read.

By this time, The EA had been over for a year. OW had already left job, moved away and married a sugar daddy. Also found FWH had made at least 4 attempts to contact OW during time we were attempting recovery (last one 6/2014). I saw no evidence of response from OW. On discovery of EA I had an AO and left home with no info. as to my whereabouts. I refused FWH attempts to contact me. This got his attention and on my return, he got serious about MB and eliminating LB.

FWH claims he always loved me and even more so now. He seems genuine in regrets, but I am wary of everything now. We both desire improving the marriage, but I'm wrestling with resentment and trust amongst other issues. Today I would appreciate advice on this: I'm having difficulty with anger towards OW. There was no exposure since EA was already over. This POSOW assisted in homewrecking and got away with it. Also she abused her position as HR Director. She's a real winner; married several times, a reputation as promiscuous and rumors of a PA with at least one co-worker. While I hate that she got away with this, I wonder if I should leave it alone since she is out of the picture, and I do not want her back in it. So, I have not exposed her anywhere, not even cheaterville. I fear exposure might prompt her to turn up in our lives again somehow. Your thoughts on this would be very appreciated.

Hi lightwalker and welcome to the Marriage Builders Discussion Forums.

First, please start by reading this http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2695379#Post2695379

Yes, it looks like a lot of reading but it is all VERY useful information and will help you a lot!

And click on the Notify link on the bottom of this post and ask the moderators to move this thread to the Surviving an Affair Forum. I realize you may consider yourself "in Recovery" but you first have to work through the steps to surviving to successfully recover.

Please follow the advice & suggestions of the members on this forum based on Dr Harleys concepts & principles. If you choose to do so, you CAN recover this marriage and have a more loving & successful marriage than you dreamed possible.

Hi light walker, welcome to Marriage Builders. There are very specific steps towards recovery and I would suggest following the steps in Surviving an Affair. I will post the checklist for you. Exposure is not only for the purpose of ending an affair; it is also to get support for the BS. The more people who know, the more people to hold the cheaters accountable.

I am not so sure you have any good exposure options for the OP, but have you exposed the affair to your own circles? Do your children know? Exposure is an extremely valuable FIRST STEP towards recovery.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

You can still expose her on cheaterville as if you were a co-worker with knowledge of her cheating vs as the BW...just an idea.

A 6 yr EA? Sorry but I have a hard time believing for 6 yrs there was only an EA. I would require a poly.

Welcome to MB

Thank you Nerlycrzy. I have requested my thread be moved. Initially I did read all you have suggested, but most of it a year ago. I will reread. My FWH began reading it, but not too engaged and making slow progress so I bought the books, and he is getting a lot out of them. MB makes sense to him and first time he has realized he has been engaging in LB the entire M. I have read HNHN, LB, Surviving A and we have completed Needs and LB inventories from the 5 Steps workbook, He is reading the books--but he's slow at it. In the past year since first D day, he has eliminated most LB behaviors and seems to get it. I'm trying to overcome resentment. We are both committed to trying to save this marriage. I know it will take full recovery and time to overcome resentment and regain trust. We are on the road to recovery, but I realize we still have a long, long way to go. Reading this forum has been a real lifesaver for me. You all have been my support group. Thank you MB.

Hi ML. I have been reading your posts for some time. They are always to the point, helpful and informative. When FWH was attempting to contact me to no avail, he appealed to my friends and family to try to pursuade me to return. At that time he outed himself, somewhat. He let them know that he had hurt me terribly by his inappropriate behavior. Most don't know the specific details, but I think know enough. DD has indicated she prefers not to discuss it. There are a few family members who have not been told as they are not too involved with our family, but I'm considering informing them. He also told his Bfriend. To my knowledge none of his co-workers were told, though I'm sure many knew what was going on at work. In looking over the checklist, I am concerned about the possibility of renewed contact as he is still using his same work phone with same e-mail address. I do monitor it though. We have completed some items on the checklist and continuing to make progress in others. I know from reading MB and this forum the way to recover is walking that narrow road, and we have to do it! Thank you ML for your input.

lightwalker, thanks for answering. I would start by letting close family and friends know about the affair. [especially the people he called when he was looking for you] Let them know what happened and with whom. Tell them you are telling them because they are a close person to your family and you would appreciate their thoughts, prayers and advice.

Your DD does need to know the facts in case the OW tries to ingratiate herself into your lives in the future. If you die, I don't think your DD would appreciate this skank showing up to give your husband "support." My father's 35 year mistress showed up at his funeral so this is not uncommon.

And yes, he should change his contact information. Monitoring his email and phone #'s will not solve the problem. I would get that changed in addition to getting spyware on any divice you can.

Thank you Black Raven for your thought about posting as a co-worker on Cheaterville. I hadn't thought about that. It would sure feel good to out her there. One other concern about posting there was that I had read about lawsuits filed on that site, and I think money wouldn't be a concern for her now. We have dealt with so much crisis over the past 16 years, the EA just being the most currrent, that I am afraid of stirring up another issue. Do you know anything about liability issues re posting to that site?

Also, I certainly know what you mean--yeah, right, 6 yr EA and not a PA? On the one hand I feel like a foolish BS, and should request the poly. On the otherhand, the emails seemed to indicate there was no PA. It looked like she was having relationships with others and was enjoying all that extra attention from my FWH who obviously had a very big crush on her.His emails to her were hurtful but pretty pathetic. She cerainly was not trying to discourage him, but her responses didn't indicate anything but an EA. From my snooping it looked like my FWH was enjoying a fantasy. He was getting SF from his very inappropriate internet activities, and he was getting his high need for attention from OP who filled his need for PA. His older wife could not compete with that. Also laziness may be involved. Fantasy relationships are much easier! So I don't think it is too unlikely it could have been just an EA, but I certainly will consider the poly.

They would never know who posted it, though. You can get a friend to put it up. Have her picture put up there and then send the report around anonymously with the cheaterville feature.


Not only can you COMPETE with it, you will win every time!!! The possibility for romance is MUCH MUCH greater and much more sustainable in a marriage than in a short lived affair. Do you want to know how to win?

Wow ML, I had not even thought about the very good reasoning you have pointed out about the importance of providing the details of the A to our DD. It important that I do this, and I will. Thank you for that insight! Also have informed one friend with details and considering how to talk to the others about it.

I will try to convince H he needs to change his work contact info too. I'm not sure how to go about spyware on his company smartphone, that is all he uses, but I will check with the Op Investigate forum.

ML I appreciate the additional thoughts about exposing her and your encouragement. And yes, I can use all the assistance I can get in knowing how to win!

Here Polygraph Testing

I would recommend a polygraph. You already know he trickle truthed you, from finding out about his SSL on the internet, to finding out about this EA. After such a long marriage I myself would wonder what else there is lurking in the shadows.

I would hate for you to put 110% effort into recovery, only to receive another devastating blow a year from now when you feel recovered, by finding out there were more affairs or this was more than an EA.

Get the full truth out NOW. Maybe you already have it, and if so then what have you got to lose? If you don't, rip the bandaid off so you can move forward with your marriage (or not) with full disclosure and RH as the cornerstone.

BrainHurts, I will check into the poly today to find closest to our area. Thanks.

Unwritten, Thanks for your thoughts. Trickle truthed is certainly a descriptive term which I relate to. I will check out Poly options today.

Lightwalker,

Mel is SO right with this statement. My H's affair was OW 15 years younger than I. It didn't matter because of the very reason Mel states here.

As someone who was trickle truthed for many months, I agree with the need for a poly at this point. Anything else that might be lurking in your marital history needs to be identified now.

Resentment dissipates when there is "just compensation". "Just compensation" includes affair proofing the marriage and developing a passionate and romantic relationship.

Welcome to MB. It is the best place for building a great marriage.

AM

AM, Your post is especially appreciated as you are a formerly BW in my age range and with similar sounding circumstances. Your post is reassuring. One major concern I have as an older woman is the worry that my H will never truely feel romantic passion for me due to his apparently high need for PA. Dr. H.addresses the fact that being visual, a very high percentage of men rate PA as a high need. So where does that leave women as we age naturally? My FWH admits to being somewhat obsessed with young women. He's gregarious and has been flirtatious, and to make matters worse, even at his age, I have seen the positive response he gets from young women. He likes that attention. He does know that to stay married I'll not accept that behavior. I worry that he may not be capable of change due to the PA need. Also, it hurt to realize, that though initially having been attracted to me emotionally and physically, his real PA was for women who were physically opposite of me in almost every way. That knowledge has caused some real resentment as well as physical and emotional aversion to him. Thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Here's another good read so you can avoid a false recovery.
False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience

Brainhurt's link is an excellent one with good advice for your situation. I have a post on there dealing with the false recovery we endured. It was truly awful. I have an entire thread dealing with H's affair and our recovery. Also, goldenyears is another BW in our age range. They recovered their marriage and are now happy after her husband's long term affair with a much younger woman.

My H loved attention from all kinds of women. He now gets that admiration from me. He is physically attracted to me, avoids porn, and has high boundaries around women.

My H and I are both retired and spend nearly all our time together. We enjoy each other's company and meet all each other's needs. We have almost no lovebusters (sometimes H will do things I find annoying, but stops them when I bring them up). And in the last couple of years, Dr. Harley advised us about a couple of conflicts regarding H's family.

The aversion and resentment will dissipate IF there is "just compensation".

AM

Thank you BrainHurts for the links. I'm now reading the FR posts-Lots of good information here I need.

AM, I've been reading through the FR thread and it's good to be aware of all of this now. I have not have seen your post yet. I'm so happy to know that for both you and Goldenyears the outcome has been positive, that it is possible. I'm hoping that one day I will truely admire my H, and that he will be happy that needed attention comes from me.

armymama's story is a very good one to follow. I learned so much from her story. Goldenyears is another good story to follow. You will learn so much from both of these strong ladies.

Here are some good clips in here What is Just Compensation?

My post is from 2010, all the way on page 17.

BrainHurts, I read Just Compensation and listened to that radio clip. I will have my FWH read/listen also. I know you and everyone else here on this forum volunteer your time... Thank you

You're very welcome, friend.

Armymama, I've begun reading your posts from the beginning. You've been through so much. I'm so glad to know that you and your H now have a good marriage and can enjoy your retirement years together. It is so encouraging for me to know this.

Here's another good story.

LongWayFromHome's Thread

lightwalker,

Yesterday, I was sitting on the couch and H came over, knelt before me and said. "You are so pretty". (remember I am 62). I said the same thing I have said for more than 30 years: "You wear glasses" and then we laughed as we have done for all that time.

It is possible IF you husband will commit totally to a passionate marriage and follow the MB program. No shortcuts!

AM

I love it!!

What great stories I've been reading. I'm so impressed and encouraged by the character and the courage shown by these BS's in facing down incredible amounts of pain and fear in order to try again...

PA is indeed a high EN for most men and also for some women. Dr. Harley has found that most of the emphasis on PA is about weight gain. PA is also about good grooming. So if a wife was to stay fit and healthy and keep a nice-looking hair style, makeup, and dress in attractive clothing, that would usually be enough to satisfy this EN. There is a worksheet for this in the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook.

A very important requirement for a great marriage, though, is that you shouldn't have to compete with any other woman out there. Your husband should never view porn again, nor should he gawk at women - either in real life or in magazines or catalogs.

One of his EPs should be that he must never flirt. He will have to learn an entirely new way of interacting with women. If this is a problem for him, he should probably avoid working with women.

It takes a couple of years to recover a marriage - MINIMUM - and your resentment will fade once your marriage is romantic, passionate, and safe.

Thank you LongWay for your response. I don't know if I will have the kind of character and resolve you, Armymama and so many others on this forum display. Some days I am so angry, hurt and resentful, some days I feel hopeful after reading the forum, and some days, like yesterday, I feel downright crazy--seeing a young woman with a slight resemblance to OW and feeling such contempt for this innocent young woman I didn't even know, that I wanted to bash into her with my grocery cart! the feeling was so visceral, and I felt so depressed afterwards...

As far as the PA, it is my FWH who has the weight issue. I have always been petite and have kept myself in pretty good shape and looking younger than my age. I feel resentment because my husband knew exactly who I was when he married me; I presented myself honestly--a petite natural blond. I'd chosen a lifestyle for myself; I was a country girl in jeans and T-shirts who was no longer interested in the quest for fashion. Though I had been attractive to the opposite and had dated a lot, I was specifically looking for a mate with lower PA needs. I thought my H was that kind of man. It wasn't until after we were married that his criticisms of me began. Even then when I tried to please him, I was punished rather than rewarded for my efforts. Example: When I tried to change my hairstyle in the way he wanted me to, he got angry and frustrated with me because I didn't look like the young model in the picture. Those kinds of hurtful, unrealistiic attitudes and comparisons to other women of course had the opposite effect he wanted. I became emotionally and physically adverse to trying to please him. I never felt safe, and I stopped trying. Now his admitted obsession with young, voluputous exotic-looking brunettes--things I can never be, makes me so upset. The OW had some of these qualities. I was a woman who could have grown older gracefully and now I seem to be obsessed with his obsession. And I can't seem to get away from it. Everywhere I look are those kinds of images--magazines, tv,movies and everywhere I go. They are all triggers.

To my FWH's credit, I know he does not want to be this way and really regrets his behaviors (every LB in the book). I know he cares for me and has always been attracted to me for other important EN's he has. I was the stable adult. He says he knows he has been extremly childish and selfish, and wants to change. He has not displayed any of those LB's for a very long time, but it is lack of the UA time that is still the hold up in my ability to move on. My fear that he may not be able to change is driven by the fact that he has some MH issues such as depression and OCD-both having been treated for many years. I forgave many of his behaviors because of this, but now that I learned of that long-term EA I can no longer tolerate him and feel cheated that I might have had a life with someone else who might have appreciated me. I'm angry at myself now that I realize how my Giver contributed to all of our problems.

We have recently completed the EN inventory and addressed the PA issues, and I do feel better that my H now understands my perspective and accepts responsibility for the pain he has caused me. I'll keep trying, thanks to all of you...

I went through this with the PA EN also. I like you am a t-shirt and jean wearing outdoorsy girl, and have always been this way. I didn't get my nails done, tan, or primp even for my wedding. I do always do my hair and makeup every day and am fairly fit, practice good hygiene, etc. I just am more of a tomboy. This is one of the things I thought my H liked about me, until he indicated his PA need wasn't being met. I felt the need to be glamorous and fancy, and felt like a fish out of water when I tried to be. A LOT of people tried to help me on my thread, with workout advice, clothing advice, blah blah blah. It did feel unnatural and I got very resentful.

One thing I try to focus on now is POJA. In other words, you change things about yourself to try and meet a PA need, but only in a WIN-WIN way. This means that the changes are negotiated where both your H and you are happy with the result. You have to be enthusiastic about making the change, and not sacrificing for him. So for example, my H likes fancy nails. To make him happy I got french tips put on. Every moment in a nail salon is pure torture for me and fake nails are a lot of maintenance, not to mention the fact that having tips is very inconvenient and does NOT go along with my lifestyle at all. So I sacrificed by doing this and was resentful about it. But, that being said, I DID like having my nails done all the time, it just made me feel a bit more put together even when I was dressed down. So to compromise I am now getting regular french manicures with my own nails. I can go when I want and not when I need a fill, and they are short and manageable, but they still always look good. Win-Win.

But none of that will help if there is a contrast effect and your H is comparing you to other, younger women. He needs to stop doing that.

Hi Unwritten, Thanks for your thoughts on the PA issue.You and I sound like two peas in a pod when it comes to fashion! As a young woman I was very into all of that, probably overly so, but found I was much happier when I wasn't obsessing on my looks. Also like you, I've always worn makeup and attended to the grooming, and dressed well for work, but at home I just wanted to be comfortable. Your approach seems balanced. When my H and I did the PA worksheet, he wasn't very specific which is part of the problem. I'm asking for specifics, and I'm working on trying to be less sensitive about the whole issue. I remember reading some of your thread now, and I'm going to try to find your story. As far as the contrast effect problem, My H seems to have stopped the internet activities and says he is working on the flirting issue. But I don't know how other men deal with the fact you can't get away from the contrast effect in the society we are living in. My husband once told me just standing in the grocery line with all the magazine covers caused him to view me more negatively. Plus everywhere one goes there are young provocatively dressed women everywhere. I know my H is obsessive, but I wonder how the average man manages it? It would be interesting to know.

I have had that issue too. It has been an ongoing struggle for H to be specific about any of his needs, including the PA need. We are a constant work in progress, so I'm not sure if reading my thread will enlighten you in any way.

As far as the contrast effect, I understand your problem. I agree that it is everywhere, how do you refrain from 'seeing' it. I know Dr Harley has answered this question before, perhaps someone can link you to a radio broadcast or link that might give his answer. If not, maybe you would want to email him this question so he can give you specific ways to avoid the contrast effect in your situation.

He needs to STOP internet activity that compares you to other women. You need to monitor him to make sure that has happened. I can't remember if that is looking at porn or some other activity, but it needs to stop immediately and he needs to never do that again. It should be part of your extraordinary precautions to recovering from his A.

Forgot to add, he also needs to STOP the flirting. Not 'working on it' but just stop.

UA time is the cornerstone of recovering a marriage. Dr Harley recommends spending 20-25 hours together each week fulfilling the 4 intimate needs, to restore love in a marriage.

Believe me, I had many of the same strong emotional reactions you are now suffering. I was extremely angry and often lashed out at my H in anger. It took a lot of MB for me to learn that I HAD to stop the anger. But I was still very sad and very resentful and completely hopeless that I would ever feel better. We're four years post D-Day and have the best marriage we have ever had. It wasn't my character that brought about the changes; it was a decision on both our parts to create and maintain marital habits.

I have also had the same illogical reactions to women I randomly see while I'm out and about who remind me of the OW. (We live far FAR away from the OW.)


I am also, and have always been, petite and fit. My H was the one with the weight problems throughout our marriage. I was repulsed by his weight gain - fifty pounds gained after we married! I wasn't attracted to him, but certainly other women were. Once my H ended, flirting, porn, and masturbation he is very happy with me. He uses the "2-second rule" and does not even look at catalogs portraying women. He lost his excess weight and is now extremely handsome so I am happy with his appearance, too.

Your H must stop all flirting, porn, and looking at other woman for the rest of his life. He will find you attractive once he eliminates all competition.


He sounds a lot like my H who also had heaps of love busters. I very much disliked being married to him but I believed that being a Christian, I was supposed to put up with it and love him "unconditionally." Now I know that's simply enabling crappy behavior. My H has changed drastically and has become a man I care for and am in love with. It takes time and effort to create new habits, but once they're in place, the rest is pretty easy. I never thought my H would be able to become a great husband but he did. And yours can, too, if he builds and follows MB habits.


Make sure you and your H don't discuss the mistakes of the past. I know that in a long marriage, this means not talking about many years in a marriage, but we stick to talking about the present and future mostly and enjoy great, safe conversations. My H knows he will not be hit with reminders of the kind of man he used to be, although even that took a while to overcome. He felt he deserved it, but it's a love buster, so I asked him to always stop me with "Honey, let's not talk about the mistakes of the past. Let's stick with the program." And I HAD to zip up that comment and talk about something else. Now I rarely even think about those "bad old days," except to marvel inwardly at what we have now.

Longway, You are right--I will need to "zip it" as far as rehashing the old issues. This will be a challenge as it is my biggest LB behavior. I like how you handle it, and will remember the words you've asked your H to use if you slip up.

That "2 second rule" approach to the contrast problem--I'll suggest to my H!

I am monitoring his internet activity on his company phone which is what he uses, and his Facebook, porn use and babe qawking on-line activities seemed to have stopped, but there is still the possibility he uses the Google Chrome incognito feature. As far as I know there is no way around that problem. As far as the actual flirting, so far I am having to take his word that he has stopped--though I'm still not sure He gets the difference between appropriate friendly conversation and flirting. I don't know how I can monitor that.

Yes, it is that cornerstone to recovery, but we are not even close to that amount of UA time. When I get some UA time it makes all the difference in how I feel. My H has made enormous progress with plugging that LB hole. But that UA time is a real problem. I'm not sure how to solve the problem.

We are a few years from retirement. He works in a very physically, mentally demanding job. For financial reasons, if we want to retire, quitting or changing jobs at this stage of the game wouldn't be realistic. His hours are long, and he is exhausted. Added to that several chronic health issues, lots of meds, and chronic depression on top of it. Yesterday he was up at 4:00 am, home at 5:00 pm and in bed by 7:00 pm. It doesn't leave much time. We are in the process of trying to figure away to do a partial retirement.

Even so, we could be spending much more time on UA and MB, but due to fatigue his motivation is not there. He likes the results of the MB work we have been doing, our relationship is much improved, but at the same time I think it feels like another thing he has to do... I'm not sure what to do about this.

The job issue can't be left unresolved. Anything that comes before the marriage will come between you.

You won't make it through recovery with that job. Why it sounds like for health reasons alone it is a non starter. The only thing MB priorities above marriage is health and safety.

You need to put the problem on the front burner until it is resolved.

When he was in a long term EA (and likely PA) with another person AT WORK, he found the time to engage in that didn't he? But now he doesn't have the time to engage in UA time with you, his wife? That is not an acceptable response.

We have loads of people tell us their personal reasons for why UA time is difficult. In fact, I don't think I have ever once heard someone say, 15-25 hours? No problem! We have young parents with several kids and financial hardships, who work like dogs to find some free support for their kids and free activities they can do for that UA time. We see people quit jobs, move to completely different countries, and basically rearrange their lives, just to put their marriage first. These are the success stories. Those who just find reasons to not put the marriage first are the ones who are not successful at recovery.

I know it is hard. But if you truly want a fully recovered marriage that is rock solid, making it the #1 priority in your life, and finding that time for UA, is the most important ingredient to getting there.

Do you have spyware on his devices?

Yes, you are right. Real recovery won't be possible without the work circumstances changing. Whether or not he will do that, I don't know. And if he doesn't, I'm not sure what then? Thanks indiegirl for adding to the conversation. I've followed your posts for quite some time-always right on, always insightful.

Have you talked to him about his job? What does he say?

Yes, I do know what you mean. I have read these stories, and I have seen the lengths to which people go to recover the marriage, and they are the success stories.

My FWH is trying to improve, but lacks the drive or maybe the commitment. I'm weary of being the driver of the MB recovery, and have backed off on pushing it which is also part of the problem. I'm losing some resolve because of the snails pace. It seems the least he could do is take more initiative. Most of the time, with some notable exceptions, it has felt like dragging him along. I also have thought to myself, as you expressed, he seemed to have made time for the A. That was easy. This is hard. He doesn't like hard!

I don't have spyware on the phone. I have full access to the phone to check it which I do regularly, but since it's a company owned phone, I don't know if it could be detected. The only other device I know of is his company owned computer at his work.

I have looked into Op Investigate and now have the names of some of those companies to check into on this. Also I have considered a VAR, but again, the only vehicle he has is the company owned vehicle. It's maintained regularly, I'm concerned of the possibility of the maintenance shop perhaps finding it.

I have done a lot of PI work in discovering what was up, but I'm not sure what to do here, I've been thinking on it... If the vehicle and equiptment were ours, I would definately do this.

Yes, we have talked about the job. He is physically burned out on it, and he has asked his supervisor about the possibility of taking a hiatus for parts of the year which are the most demanding, or working just enough to maintain the health ins. for as long as we need company ins. We're not yet sure if they will allow that. We are planning on doing some more POJAing it.

I had a similar unpleasant experience getting my husband on board w MB recovery and not just intellectually receiving the plan but executing it. He too has a demanding job and we are heading towards retirement.


Here's how to get started. Spend one hour each evening Monday through Thursday with IC. Each disclose at least 2 things that happened in your day not related you and your relationship. Here is the most important part of this part of the IC ---talk about how you felt or reacted to these events of your day. Upsets with coworkers, traffic, weather, events enjoyed and so on. Next each express 5 things you found you felt a sense of gratitude towards your spouse. 5 things can seem like a lot. 1 or 2 things are not so hard. But 5 can sometimes be a challenge. Still 5 are good because it causes you to identify things you are grateful for about your spouse through out your day so you are prepared. Gives your whole attitude towards your spouse a boost when you've gone on empty and the relationship is fragile. Affection and SF can easily be part of this time.

I appreciate 4 hour blocks are best route and is advocated here. It seems you are yet gathering yourselves. No you can't drag him along.

Anyway, between Friday evening and Sunday afternoon you can plan
UA time blocks. You both actually need to sit down and make plans. This way you do get 15 to 20 hours.

Evaluate carefully how you get distracted. Distractions are likely a problem. Remove yourselves from environments that more readily cause distractions.

And you both need to learn the birds and the bees of how your husband seemingly 'innocently' attracts females. When I get a chance I'll post a few ways this happens while the wayward is just being themselves and therefore can't identify what they are doing. And it can be difficult fir the betrayed to identify a boundary or precaution.

graceful2b, Your post was a bright spot in my day. Thank you for your thoughtful and practical suggestions for getting in some UA time.

Your timing of the post was just right as I had been thinking about how to add some positives; start focusing on the things we appreciate rather than all of the things which have gone wrong. I like your idea a lot

And when you have the time I would very much like to hear your thoughts on those "birds and bees" which you mentioned...

Glad you liked it LW! I will post the 'birds and bee's' later. At work right now and can't focus or take the time.

Anyway, I think this program of IC etc, gets you started or rebalances after being in a negative loop awhile.

OK Lightwalker.

It was surprising to me to finally 'see' how my husband was relating to others, and I mean opposite sex that could have the potential to encourage or cause rouge behavior in himself and the opposite sex. It was like he was just being himself and under certain conditions women would begin to become engaged with him and be drawn in. So it was hard for him to appreciate how he was causing me to feel unsafe in our relationship to him.

But alas things did go rouge with a woman in a recreational activity he really enjoyed. After the relationship was busted up I joined him in his recreational activity, this happy space of his, and because I no longer wore blinders, I started to 'see' his actions much differently.

He did not 'see' his actions as I mentioned above as a problem. Now I know this is because he, like most is only in his own head space and is only perceiving his own intent while I am observing his actions and the reactions of others to his actions.

Now I see his methods of being 'helpful' in certain conditions can actually be productive 'grooming' behaviors. His intent is not about grooming OW. Whether he admits it or not, he IS receiving admiration and validations by stirring up emotions in women with his attention to them.

There are lots of ways to draw women in at work or participating in a recreational activity. Sometimes all it takes is to show attention with a simple compliment. For example, your husband might notice a woman at work is wearing a new blouse. He might compliment her. This woman is drawn in emotionally. Perhaps she left for work this morning and got dressed up and her husband did not notice her appearance and perhaps he's been too busy and so on, but now your husband, her co-worker is complimenting her and it feels good. She starts drawing comparisons and is now seeking out your husband for compliments.

Or he might by trade be a great problem solver. He finds himself listening to a female revealing her problems. Soon they start revealing problems back and forth. It might lead to complaints towards their spouse and so on. So this can flare things up and go rouge!

Or maybe your husband uses encouragements, helping to build someone up at work who seems to be struggling.

While I write this you might be thinking about your husbands innocent behaviors and you probably know how he tends to operate and what might be the cause of the extra attention he innocently receives at work.

When I finally noted my husbands high risk behavior in front of me I did not become paranoid, but I did start standing my ground and stating I was not enthusiastic. He really can't be involved in recreational activities he is highly motivated and quickly becomes expert, specialist and teacher. It all seems noble and helpful to others but at great risk to our marriage.

So what does your husband do and how does he now start to behave? I tried to help my husband. Coaching can help too. He needs to go to work and see himself married and not open for business that invites trouble. All I've discussed here is IB behavior. He's acting as a renter in your relationship.

Here is a little example of your changed for the better husband:

A woman walks up to him at work and says "I like your shirt, its a great color on you." How does he politely respond so this isn't going down a rouge ego centered IB path? Your husband replies: "Thanks. My wife picked it out for me, she is so thoughtful...." (you see, he made the compliment about you and his love and devotion of you and your marriage)

I hope this helps Lightwalker.

I've been thinking about what you have said here graceful. Your choice of word "grooming" is interesting. I thought of that word once when I was thinking about my husband's flirtation, but then thought to myself I was over-reacting. But that was before I learned of the A. Now as you have pointed out so well, that is an appropriate word. Even if his actions are not conscious "grooming" that is exactly what he has been doing, and it certainly led to the A.

He suffers from chronic depression (I've noted this is the case for many waywards) and he is an extremely emotional man who genuinely cares about others and expresses those concerns. This quality can be endearing. He also has a great sense of humor and is a natural jokester. He says this is what led to the A--just joking around with the OW. I've pointed out to him the danger of these types of behaviors, but I know it is so natural for him, it is a challenge.

And then when I saw his on-line email and FB communications I was shocked to see extreme, intentional behavior that was clearly "grooming." When I think of what he said to several OW it is still so painful--and sometimes so disgusting I still feel sick. He even outed himself once when we were discussing HNHNS about women's high needs for attention and affection when he said he had found how easy it was to impress and get a woman's attention just by giving her some special attention. I so wish I had been the one getting that kind of attention instead other W. I was so starved for that kind of attention for so many years..

I have clearly told him: No more hugging women (he has always been a great hugger!) No more giving flowers or gifts of any kind without my OK, No more private IC with any W.

After reading your post I will discuss with him the danger of compliments. I really hadn't thought to address that because it is always so nice to receive compliments from others, and I like to give them, but with his boundry issues, I know he shouldn't do that. I like your wording for a polite response if he is complimented; bring the wife into the conversation. I saw how missing I was for all of those years in all of his on-line converations. It was as though I didn't even exist (oh, so painful).

After reading MB and talking about reasons for the A, he realized what a high need he has for attention and admiration--that has been his driving need. It was a real eye opener for him, and it is something I really need to try to fill for him now.

Thanks so much for your helpful encouragement. It means so much to me.

Your welcome!

I'm glad you are learning to 'see' and trust your own instincts. Its very easy to almost allow for or enable this behaviors when it seems so much a part of the waywards character. He needs to protect you going forward and you have to be honest with yourself and your husband as far as what you are not enthusiastic about.

Why is he sending candy and flowers to women other then you or his mother?


Your husband needs to let go of the rights he gave himself to flirt + and attract women's attention to him for the sake of your relationship together. He's not single and this hurts you. Its at your expense.

And he needs to stop with holding love from you. At one point I told my husbands it was like he is an anorexic towards meeting my emotional needs. Its even more painful if you have let him know what you need and he agrees and denies it and sends this energy away from your relationship. With anorexia nervosa, the inflicted hurts themselves from excessive weight loss. Withholding or restricting emotional needs in a marriage is projected to the spouse and is extremely painful to the betrayed. This can become a seriously hurtful habit. Talking about your day and feelings about your day and discussing what you are both grateful about towards one another seems to change the energy direction.

These are issues you can't just get over or be allowed to be minimized. Minimization I've learned around here is a sign of an emotional abuser projecting. He needs to get over his idea he has a right to get his intimate emotional needs met outside your marriage. The flirting is not just how he has always been and I hope he isn't asking you to accept it as though you'd be rejecting him for who he is!

This is about learning and growing in how to love. Part of the learning is protecting our spouses and marriage.

The last time my husband tried to give me the get over thing, he said "well you should leave." I didn't get upset I just said "OK" and went about my business cleaning my car out. In about 5 minutes he asked I not leave and apologized. Then we got real and got somewhere.

For us I think my husbands grooming and seeking is like he took a detour off a legitimate soul path due to years worth of his own IB. Its about following God's will and not our own. The other way around causes us to perpetually seek and not get anywhere and lose what is most precious.

Reading this has been very eye opening to me on some of my wife's behaviors. Especially the way it starts.


There are a lot of things that I notice about my wife's behavior now, that I never would have noticed Pre A. Just by the way she is so fun and bubbly, she naturally draws the attention of the OS. Even if it is not her intention.

I don't want to thread jack, so I am going to take this quote from Graceful over to my thread, and break it down to address some of the things I see in my wife's behavior.

[quote=graceful2b]



Why is he sending candy and flowers to women other then you or his mother?


Until I became suspicious about his FB and other internet activities, I didn't know he was doing these kinds of things. At that time I was able to look back over several years worth of on-line conversations and found all of this out. I was shocked to say the least and so upset to know that while I was juggling several jobs (besides taking care of a home and caretaking responsibilities) and going without things I would have liked to have due to some of his impulsive, irresponsible spending habits, He had been buying flowers and gifts for OW!

Yes, he was engaged in many IB's, and I think he realizes it now after reading about LB's. Fortunately, he has not given me the "get over it" line, but has expressed remorse and embarassment over what he has said is his inexcusable behavior. Whether or not his actions will change after this realization, I don't know. I certainly don't trust his words anymore. I will be watching him closely, but will have no way of knowing if the behavior has really ceased.

Your anorexia analogy is a very good one. It hurts to be on the receiving end--being the one being starved to death for attention and affection. He is being much more attentive now, and I am receiving more than just that one perfunctory hug per day. I'm beginning to get more hugs and thoughtful little gifts now and then. Hopefully there are no OW getting any hugs, flowers or gifts now!!

[quote=graceful2b


This is about learning and growing in how to love. Part of the learning is protecting our spouses and marriage.

For us I think my husbands grooming and seeking is like he took a detour off a legitimate soul path due to years worth of his own IB. Its about following God's will and not our own. The other way around causes us to perpetually seek and not get anywhere and lose what is most precious. [/quote]

When my FWH read Dr. H's philosophy on the importance of protecting one's spouse emotionally as well as physically, this got his attention. He'd never thought about protection in that way. He's always felt it his duty as a man to protect me physically. It seemed to bother him when he realized he had not protected me in this other equally important way.

You are so right when you say the grooming and seeking is a result of taking that detour off the "legitimate soul path" which leads to a place of no value. I wish waywards would realize this before they take that detour and cause so much damage.

Hi all,

Thank you for being here. Since my last post I have followed the forum regularly which has been really helpful. My FWH and I continue to work on recovery using MB concepts and materials. It has been very slow going, but we have made good progress in many areas. I'm astounded at my H's progress in eliminating many LB's and in his improvement in meeting my EN's. I know he is sincerely trying. BUT

From time to time I'm absolutely baffled by his insensitivity and lack of understanding my feelings. The issue always is about PA and having to feel in competition with other females. The M was plagued by his hurtful, demeaning comparisons. It destroyed my M and my love for him. He thinks I am now overly sensitive when he slips up, but I just can't understand how he doesn't seem to get it after all of this time working on it. He has suggested I ask the forum if I am just being overly sensitive. I have suggested he join the forum which he has agreed to do. We'll work on doing that today.

Here are a few examples of slip ups:


Took a nice mid-winter vacation. The first morning, out of consideration for me he says he will take a little walk to give me time as I get ready to go out to breakfast. I wait and wait. When he returns he has already eaten breakfast! It hurt me, particularly since this place is crawling with beautiful women, just his type. It put a bit of a dark cloud over an otherwise very nice vacation.

We have been trying for more UA time. Last time we went for a dinner date which ended up spoiled for me as the pretty young waitress pointedly smiled and made direct eye contact wiith my H every time she went by (ignoring me completely) and he reciprocated everytime until realizing halfway through I was not enjoying it. I should have spoke up, but was so taken aback by it, I was speechless. My H and I discussed it and how we should have handled it, but he was upset that it would bother me so much. He didn't really own up to it.

This past week as we worked on the RH worksheet, my husband came clean on some very hurtful behaviors in years past. Some of it was so vile, things I never would have found out about. I appreciated him for finally being honest though it was incredibly painful to hear. It was a tough evening for both of us. Made more so when he actually accused me of encouraging the truthfulness then acting accepting of it in order to get revenge later down the road! He was apologetic and appalled by his reponse and we worked through that one. Then the next day....

He had been at a work meeting about project he had been deadset against. He came back now very enthusiastic about it expressing how he would like to be a part of the project now. On checking his email I found he had sent an email to the presenter, a woman outside the company. He apologized for some rudeness and let her know he was enthusiastic about working on the project. Of course I was suspicious and looked her up. Just as I thought-a young pretty woman, just his type! I got upset. After the honesty bomb dropped the day before, this was too much and I didn't handle it in a good MB manner. I withdrew, but later apologized.

Next day as a way to make up for it, H brought me my favorite candy and apologized. Also in his off beat sort of way trying to humor me, I suppose, he brought home a tabloid (I really don't like them) The feature article was hot babes in bikinis vs those poor souls the tabloids love to make fun of--older women in terrible shape. Seeing how our whole 30 plus year marriage was destroyed by his hurtful comments in comparing me to young attractive women, I just don't know how in the world he could even think I would find humor in it. I was so stunned I didn't even react to it. We went ahead and had a nice evening. I truly think he was oblivious and that is the wierd part of it. I also believe the tabloid was partly brought home for himself as a means of using for self-gratification which had been an issue.

So back to my husband's question for the forum, Let's say my H really is oblivious to his LB behavior, is his BS just being too sensitive?

Hi lightwalker, I'm sorry you are having trouble.

I can totally relate to your sensitivity, my H had an A with a younger woman and I was so sensitive, couldn't even look at the mirror.

A few questions to start, how are you doing on UA time? What do you do for UA?

It shouldn't matter to your H what we say about your feelings, your feelings are valid becuase they are yours. Even if we think they are silly you have no power over them. Your H on the other hand, does have power over his actions, he should make an effort to change whatever habits hurt or annoy you.

On the other hand, how are you doing on PA. If your H has a need for PA, you need to care for it. Obviously this needs to be done in a way you are entusiastic about.

There are some great poster that would love to help your H, I really hope he takes this opportunity

Thank you for your response Alada.

We are still not doing great at UA time though 100% better than the past. I would say it is only 10 hrs per week. My H still feels he doesn't have that kind of time. He does have time for a few other recreational activities though. This is an area we really need to improve for the marriage to improve, I know.

For UA time, we go out to dinner, take walks, take drives. We spend an hour or two a day in conversation instead of him watching TV. That actually is my favorite time as going out together is difficult due to triggers. Also he is taking more time off from work so we can get out of town for a few days now and then.

I've definately attended more to PA and he notices and says he appreciates it. I've tried to encourage him to be more specific, but he says that is difficult due to my sensitivity on the subject, so we need more effort there. He says he is still attracted to me and wants to continue to improve in the area of SF, but the reality is that we are of the age that there is only so much I can do about PA other than a complete overhaul, and even that wouldn't really do it for him. Bottom line is I can never be young and pretty.

Actually domestic support is at the top of his EN list now and I have been putting more effort there. SF and PA are further down his list as he has aged but it is still very hurtful to me due to the A and everything else. I know it is increasing UA to decrease the painful memories that is needed. Hopefully he might get some encouragment if he joins the forum.

I'm genuinely shocked at your update. These are horrible things that he has done!

You say your H has eliminated many LBs and improved meeting your ENs, and is sincerely trying, but I think that this behaviour overshadows all of that (not the RH worksheet, but the other four instances).

I don't think it's any good if he is much nicer to you, and takes you out and so on, if he has these mini-betrayals. I would say that stopping all of those is much more important than whatever other LBs he has stopped.

What's really shocking is that he doesn't seem to take your concerns and distress seriously. He seems to think his behaviour is amusing. The tabloid thing? He really did that? Who does he think he is that he can swan around, chatting and smiling to women in front to you? Does he think he's Mick Jagger?

In your shoes, I'd be signing up for the online course. He needs to be in direct contact with Dr Harley. At the very least, get yourselves on the radio show and let Dr Harley beat him around the head a bit.

I'm appalled and if I were you, would tell him seriously that any further signs of coasting for affairs / covering by telling you you are crazy and sensitive will not likely convince you to stay in the marriage.

Say it matter if factly and own it. Coasting for affairs while telling you you are crazy = no more chances. 'I will not tolerate my concerns over these women being dismissed' is another good one.

Own it as your own standard and idea because it doesn't MATTER what we think. He respects YOUR feelings - end of!

What in heaven does it matter what some strangers find sensitive when his wife is hurting?

I would also tell him you expect him to work much harder to learn how to reform. His sensitivity comment - wow it's like he's never heard of MB.

He should be on here - not you, getting straightened out by Dr H. Coaching with Steve.


Raise that bar so much higher.



These are facts. Inappropriate interaction with women and dismissing your right to object are things he has DONE.

This isn't a joke. It's gaslighting masquerading as a joke.

Impossibly cruel.

Nobody is that stupid.

I totally agree with the others. His behavior is horrible and I'm afraid you're used to it and you shouldn't be.

Are you in the online course? Will you email Dr. Harley?

I skimmed your thread and see many MB checklist items that were seemingly skipped over that were pointed out to you, you said you would address but ??

~ Exposure. Did you end up exposing the 6 year affair to close friends and family? Not only will this give you the support it sounds like you desparately need but it should help to clear remaining fog. And sorry to say, but your H still sounds foggy.

~ Polygraph. What happened with this? Not only is the 6 year EA hard to believe but with the long standing history of SSL and inappropriate wayward behavior, you really have NO IDEA what else he has been up to.

~ EP list. This was posted to you and you said you were concerned about renewed contact bc your H has the same work phone and email. What was done about this? Also your H should not have a "work phone" that you cannot properly check up on (spyware and look at records) . What about all of the other items on the list?

I can tell you right now that your H is not taking the EPs seriously at all. He didn't need to email the pretty young coworker to express enthusiasm at their upcoming work together. Completely inappropriate.

The time to address these issues is AT THE START of recovery. Not skim over them and skip over to the EN-meeting part of the program.

Big red flag when a F?WS is telling a BS that they are being overly sensitive.

Big Red Flag!!

This is the kind of language my ex H used with me to get me to back off and feel badly when I tried telling him his behavior was making me uncomfortable. He ended up having another affair and basically tricked me into a false recovery for years while he carried on his IB and SSL.

And....it doesn't matter if you ARE being overly sensitve! POJA and MB means eliminating behavior that makes you are not enthusiastic about, period.

Dr Harley wrote to me on the private forum regarding this issue:

Gosh I love Dr H.

This is what I love about this forum, SugarCane, people here don't mince words! Mick Jagger? Well, I don't know about that, but I do think he has been thinking of himself as a teenage boy instead of the 60-year-old that he is... I do think he has begun to think of himself a little more realisticly lately though as he just said the other day he is trying to stop and observe his own behavior to see if there is a "creep" factor there-- as in creepy old man. He said he needs to grow up.

Yesterday we did talk about contacting Dr. Harley. My H has grown to respect Dr. H's perspectives a lot and would be on board with it. I agree he needs some "beating around the head" to get those MB concepts drummed into it, not by me, of course!!

Yes, Indie, I know what you mean--stupid? He's not unintelligent, but sometimes, and I'm serious about this, it seems there is some kind of gap in the Common Sense Dept.

His whole family often wondered about his father too--a smart man in many ways who did the most confounding things at times--things which were quite odd. Seriously, there are some MH problems, which complicate matters, nevertheless, there is no excuse for the behavior. I know I am responsible for setting the bar high as you have rightly stated, but sometimes I am so dumbfounded by it all I'm rendered speechless as well as senseless. Thank goodness for MB and this forum to help get my thinking back on track.

I understand it is my feelings he should be considering no matter what others may think--a major MB concept, but this has always been an issue too; the perspective of others is often taken in and accepted when I have been saying the very same thing but, he doesn't hear me. I will plan to contact Dr. H.

And Radical Honesty should NEVER be disrespectful. There is a way to be truthful without being critical. Your husband has 0 skillz. Whenever he starts to play victim to your hurt, leave the room. It's gaslighting by playing dumb. His job is to put a bubble of protection around you. He is doing the opposite.

I wouldn't give enthusiastic agreement to walks alone like that. You are on vacation Together.

lightwalker,

Could you please answer these?

DQ and BH no, there has been no Poly as of yet. I did locate one in another city and H said yes, he would gladly do it. After thinking about Dr. H's discussion on polys I decided to wait and see what I learned from RH work first. The info I learned recently from RH reinforces the need to follow the strict EP guidelines.

Thank you SQ for this Dr H. post. I've answered your questions re the EP's in my previous post--somehow I missed your posts
the first time I looked through the responses.

lightwalker,

I am going to be blunt with you. You don't seem to really be following the advice or the steps and just kind of skimming over the most important part of recovery.

Then, you come back basically telling us your WH is still doing these foggy things....we point them out to you, point out things that were told to you when you first got here and again, and here we go again, you are doing the same thing.

You realize that the people posting to you have been posting here for years and years and are pointing these things out for GOOD REASON, right?

You can't sweep these things under the rug and just keep focusing on meeting ENs. That WILL NOT work when dealing with a fogged out spouse.

Your WH should not be reading here, yet.
Is he reading this thread?

You were told on Page 1 that the contact information needed to be changed. You can't "monitor" the phone when you have no access to the records and can't put spyware on it. Again, not sure why this is being ignored ??

From Page 1:

We know you can't monitor the work phone. What about the spyware on other devices such as the computer in the home? You said you were going to look into it. What happened with that?

You skipped over my question about exposure that was addressed with you on Page 1 of this thread.


Your WH going and telling people about who knows what after you had left him is not exposure.

So as far as I can tell exposure has been skipped in this case. Has this been resolved? I am guessing not since you did not answer the question.

The EPs and RH discussions have nothing to do with uncovering everything that you need to know from your WH's 6 -year secret online life and affair.

Not only do you need to make sure there weren't other affairs in order to implement appropriate EPs, your H not having revealed this information will keep him FOGGY.

Again this topic was covered on PAGE 1 of the thread, you said you would "look into it" and then you never followed up with us...and instead return talking about the meeting EN's part of the program. Sigh.

This is UNACCEPTABLE.

LW, you need to raise the bar and start really putting this program into motion starting with all of the items that were just addressed above, exposure, poly and EPs. And if this attitude of your WH continues, I would start to prepare for separation.

Please do not do this.

Your WH is completely capable of implementing ALL of MB - Extraordinary Care, Protection and Time.

He's just not doing it because he doesn't care enough to. And he's still foggy.

Don't make excuses for him.

SusieQ,

Your bluntness is appreciated and needed. I know I am still in a fog of sorts myself. To answer one of your questions, yes, after my first posts I did expose the A to family and friends as I was encouraged by the forum to do. I will go back through your posts to answer your other questions as soon as I can.

SusieQ, To answer your questions,

Yes family and friends were informed about the A.

I will take your advice and will not encourage H to join forum. He has seen no posts. He was willing to join forum, but he does not care to and had expressed preferring to get the assist from the coaching or Dr. H.

H's smart phone, work computer and vehicle are all company owned. It is my understanding it would be illegal to use a VAR or spyware. He owns no other phone, computer or vehicle. He doesn't use my car and we have no home computer other than the tablet I use which he cannot use. He is low tech as am I. He doesn't know what snooping resources I have used, but he does believe that for a price I could find someone to spy electroniclly who could find out most anything.

His contact & email info is unchanged. Ow could access it easily if it were changed from anyone in the company. If anyone knew why his info was changed I really worry she would learn the A was exposed and this would prompt her to contact my H to learn what was up. She is newly married to a wealthy man and may not otherwise want to chance screwing that up. By the time her M goes belly up, I'm hoping we will already be out of here. I'm not really sure about this.

You SHOULD BE really worried anyway.

Your H had a 6 yr online affair and you have NO WAY to monitor what he is doing with his work phone and work computer.

You should already be worried.

There is no way to verify what he tells you he is up to and there is no transparency so I am really scratching my head at your comments regarding RH being followed now and no need for a poly.

SusieQ,
Thank you for sticking with me here. I know how frustrating it must be for all of you veterans to give of yourself--time and knowledge to help and have your advice unheeded. I once vounteered with battered W and would get so frustrated. Sad irony. No physical battery here, but put up with the occasional emotional whopping, and now all this..

Anyway, yes I do think a poly is in order, and would like some advice. Since only a few questions can be asked, what would you advise and how might it be worded. I would ask about any other EAs/or any PA's, any continued SSL.

Prior to the fessing up to some things without threat of a poly I was so disgusted by everything I was able to find out just by my own snooping, I didn't really give much of a sh**t I guess. I'd heard enough to know I didn't love him and couldn't ever trust him, but for financial reasons wasn't sure what I wanted to do.

I've seen enough change in LB behavior and meeting EN's, all relative of course, that I'm beginning to think there might be a possibility he could learn if he is really believing in Dr H's methods. He has been the push behind doing MB work now rather than me. So maybe there is hope. I'm just not sure how the MH issues play into all of it. That can add a whole new dimension of complications.

What kind of mental health issues do you mean, lightwalker?

lightwalker, the risk of him having an affair and hiding it on these devices is much greater than the risk of ever getting caught spying. This is how people hide affairs and it is a huge looming risk in your life. I would rethink your position on this and employ some spy techniques. I am in the same position as you and I do have spyware on some of his devices, but I also have daily access to his email via webmail. Almost all companies have this ability. All of his incoming desk calls register as an incoming email so I see absolutely everything.

If you can't manage to monitor everything, then something needs to change because you are not safe as it is.

SugarCane,

H has chronic depression, anxiety and OCD. All are being treated and have been for many years. We think his father may have been bi-polar though never formally diagnosed. My H may be somewhere on that spectrum perhaps. He's been treated by several different psychs over the years and none have ever diagnosed that. It's the impulsive behaviors that he exhibits sometimes that are a problem. He's a hard one to figure out. He's worked for the same Co. for over 30 yrs and his boss recently said he is the most unique person he has ever met. There are some outstanding positives, but it is the unpredictable quality about him which is difficult.

Hi MelodyLane,

Yes, I know what you are saying. If I decide to become emotionally and physically invested in this marriage again I need to protect myself. I have tried the webmail with no luck so I gave up. I am so inept when it comes to this tech stuff, I never know If it is just me doing it wrong. I'm afraid I will really foul it up due to my bumbling with it and be detected right off the bat. But I will reconsider, and will try to figure out the webmail again. If I'm not able to snoop adequately, I mean how often would I have to get a poly ever to really feel safe; that's my problem. Thank you for your response, ML.

lightwalker, I am surprised to read your comments here. I was under the impression that recovery was the goal here? If you are not invested, then that is the opposite of recovery. The steps for recovery are: a) the marriage is affair proofed and b) a romantic relationship is created. There is no plan for either of those goals.

Requirements for Recovery

I think the rest of the posters are under the impression that you wanted to recover your marriage. Is this not the case?

Yes, ML I do want to recover my M. My H is my family(40 yrs of relationship now) I care very much about him, and the alternatives I consider at this point in life are not so great. I've continued to read MB and have improved in eliminating LB's and meeting ENs. But I'm weary and as I've said sometimes I question my H's capacity for change due to the MH issues I have mentioned, esp the impulse control problems. It really is hard to know what is what. Sometimes these things can worsen due to age and medical issues also.

I want to believe change is really possible, and I absolutely believe in MB concepts under normal circumstances. But some things, just like with serial cheaters, maybe the MH problems will prevent recovery. I just don't know. I waiver. Those "slip ups" I mentioned have made me reconsider it all. That's the reason I think we really need to get the help from the coaching or Dr. Harley to help sort it all out at this point. I'm trying to get my second wind and haven't given up.

lightwalker,

What EPs has your WH put in place? Do you tell him you still don't feel safe in your marriage?

Are you involved in his MH regimen? Do you go with him to his appointments?

Mental health issues are no reason to not affair proof your marriage, LW.

Dr Harley has addressed Impulse control issue when speaking about serial cheaters and in other instances on his radio show. I have personally spoken to him about this when we talked about my ex WH.

If your H cannot control himself because of impulse control or MH issues then he probably shouldn't work outside of the home and shouldn't have access to internet/email and cell phone unless he is accountable for everything - aka spyware and you can look at the records.

The answer isn't to sweep it under the rug and allow him to keep doing what he was doing before.

On another show with a caller who had impulse control issues, Dr Harley emphasized the need to her to follow POJA and to eliminate all IB and basically not do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of her BH. There was no different "plan" for her to deviate from MB because of it, and nor should there be for your H.

Your WH can hold down a job and drive a car, venture out into public without fear of being arrest, etc, right?? There is no reason that he cannot implement MB. The problem is that he is wayward and he is being enabled. Not MH or impulse or bipolar issues. That is an excuse.

Who told you that "serial cheater" will "prevent recovery"?? Where are you getting this stuff from?

The solution is to implement MORE EPs, not ignore that part of the program, LW.

If you cannot snoop adequately because of his job, then he should retire early or change his job, LW. That is the answer, not just ignore that part of recovery.

Nobody told you that you should do frequent constant polys in lieu of snooping. I am not sure where you got that idea. It is to make sure that you know everything you need to know about any other affairs so that you can implement appropriate EPs and other reasons that have already been posted to you or that you would have read about in the FR thread.

Have you read this?

False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience

If you truly are interested in recovery, and honestly I don't see that you are, I would strongly suggest you sign up for the MB program #3. That way, you will be assigned a coach who will help you do the program. If your husband will not do the steps then Dr Harley will push him.

But I don't see that you are really serious yourself. I see you doing a little dibbling and dabbling and that is all a waste of your time. The program has to be done in its entirety and you will avail nothing with this piece meal approach.

We have many, many people in the MB program who have personality defects and Dr Harley helps them through. Your H is certainly better off than many I have seen. We have husbands with Aspergers and ADD who are thriving on the program.

But you have to take it seriously before he will.

[quote]But some things, just like with serial cheaters, maybe the MH problems will prevent recovery. I just don't know. I waiver. [/qote]

We have many many serial cheaters who have recovered. And most people in the program have "mental health" issues. The only issue I see here is your willingness to do the program.

I would advise you to do this before you run out of steam. There is no reason your marriage can't recover. You just have to get serious..

BrainHurts,

Yes, I have told him I don't feel safe, and he says he wants to protect me. As for EP's he has closed social networks, his phone is available to me whenever he is home, I was given passwords, but as I have said snooping is limited by company owned equipt. He accts for time and now calls me several times during the day. His IB with money and time has improved a lot. Still not perfect, but so much better. Both of our IBs regarding overnight separation has changed; we no longer do that. He has asked that I let him know when I feel uncomfortable in a situation and we are learning to POJA. That is greatly improved. He had gone months & months with no AO's which really surprised me. But we just had one AO over one of the "slip ups." When this whole thing began he couldn't even get through reading MB without getting really emotional, now he is quite calm and reasonable about it. I have seen major improvements, but issues like the ones I described have popped up when I think by this time we should be past that.

I am somewhat involved with his MH regimen in that I am aware of the meds and what they are for. I also have a background working in MH. I have not gone to his med appts, however, which I'm thinking I probably should do now if he will agree to it. It seems to me there may be some obsessive thinking going on. I'm not sure. Historically this has always been a bad time of the year for him. So much so, every year I dread it. He has said he will make an appt, but his psch doctor has recently moved to another city. It may take some time to get in for an appt.

Those aren't appropriate EPs when your H can just work around all of it.

You can write to Dr Harley on the radio show and ask him yourself about this - he will tell you that you have good reason to NOT feel safe given your H's long standing history of online SSL (6-year EA) and that you cannot recover under these conditions...since we seem to be getting nowhere trying to tell you on this thread.

He can also explain to you that focusing on MH is a distraction and no reason that you two cannot implement MB in its entirety.

I really don't know how else to advise you. This isn't MB, this isn't recovery and you don't seem to be getting it. We would be doing you a disservice if we just patted you on the back and allowed you to continue on this way.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

SusieQ,

I knew I wouldn't be coming here for a pat on the back. Sometimes one needs a good kick in the behind. I'm off my rant now. I know you are all right. I'll try to get myself turned around going in the right direction. Thank you all.

What is your plan? Are you going to email Dr Harley?

It's not mental health it's affair fog. He is behaving RIGHT NOW like a man in an affair. The tabloid thing is what men in affairs do. It's always just a joke, or you're being sensitive, or I'm being too insensitive - that's just me.

No! I would take this as a sign the SSL is still on. He'd be far more attuned to you and wanting UA time if it were not.


Spyware on him, polygraph, a job where he works from home are potential solutions.

BrainHurts, Indiegirl,

I've been trying to think it through and consider what the forum has advised me to do. I'm working on writing up a plan for myself for clarifying the issues and the steps I need to take.I'm thinking we're going to need the big guns to work with my H now that he is willing. I consider this forum pretty big guns for advice and holding people accountable, but since I will take SusieQ's advice and not encourage him to join the forum, I will POJA with him about the other MB options because the more I've been thinking about it, I think it may require he leaves the job. I'm going to need a lot of assistance with that one. So I'm thinking that either the coaching or counselling with Dr. H. rather than emailing them or going on the radio show.

Why are you dragging your feet on the poly? If he said he would do it, I really don't understand the hesitation unless you are worried there is more and you don't want to know about it. If you are not worried about him passing, then let him pass and then you can put that part of recovery behind you and move forward.

Why not write into the radio show? Again, I don't get it. It's free and you can get Dr Harley's advice while you decide on your next step. I was ALREADY enrolled in the online program and wrote into the radio show a few times now. Never regretted it. It's win-win.

Really not understanding your lack of action, LW.

SusieQ,
I think I am dragging my feet due to just plain procrastination and fear. I never was a procrastinator, but I have become one about most everything over the past few years. The poly would have to take place about 200 miles from home. After listening to Dr. H's talk I was surprised by the inaccuracy rate. But as the posters here and Dr.H. have said, the effectiveness of setting up a poly is as much about the info the WS provides prior to it. when we did the RH work, and I talked to him about a poly, I certainly did get more info.

I probably fear as much about the poly giving a false reading as learning my H has lied. Maybe I worry even more about that (though I know in reality the poly accuracy rate would be much better than the BS's guess work). Though I know he has lied and deceived me, I still believe there was no PA due to his history and personal OCD quirks( aversions to germs and thoughts about potential STD's from those with multiple partners) and laziness. On-line fantasy SF and an EA for attention and admiration make perfect sense. Still I know anything is possible.

Inertia, fear, strong belief it was an EA, and feeling I couldn't feel any worse even if it was a PA are the reasons, yet I still know you are right. I need to schedule a poly. I know I can only ask a few questions so I have been trying to figure out what I should ask.

I have actually tried to write several letters to the radio show, but I get boggled by what to write because I have so many questions and concerns I get stuck on it. Again, it's plain inertia on my part. I feel like there is something wrong with my brain sometimes as if there is dementia setting in---but I know it is probably years of chronic stress doing it and not dementia. I feel foggy, but I am trying to get my thoughts organized on paper as that has always helped. I am writing out my To Do list for the actions I need to take--the poly is on the list.

I keep thinking of Indiegirl's quote: What would you do if you were not afraid?


Thank you for prodding me on...

You will be afraid but you just have to do all the actions required as though you are not.

A poly is an essential and your fear of it isn't going anywhere until it is over and done with satisfactorily.

I don't really understand why you are afraid of the inaccuracies. That simply means that the test cannot measure absolute truth, they can only measure what the WS believes is true.

That might not be good enough for a court but it is certainly good enough for a BS!

The polygrapher will phrase questions succinctly so as to avoid false readings. Fewer questions mean fewer inaccuracies. A good one is asking all your questions before the test and then having the polygrapher ask the one q: "Did you answer all my questions truthfully?"

You aren't going to feel better about the still-lurking hidden truths by ducking them. The longer you drag it out, the longer you are going to feel afraid.

I also don't understand why you just don't write Dr. Harley? If they have questions from your email they will ask you.

Indiegirl,

I know my thinking about the poly makes no sense at all--the "what if" fear, as in what if he was telling the truth and the A really was a EA not a PA, but he failed it and the results were not accurate. I would go through the rest of my life thinking he had a PA. For some reason that seems almost worse than the reverse to me. I don't know why. I know that is highly unlikely though so I spent time today doing some research on polys. From that I got some ideas as to questions I might ask and how they should be worded. I will plan to make a call to the agency tomorrow. I like the sample question you gave me. I hadn't thought of asking that question.

Do you fear the poly because you don't plan to leave no matter what the outcome? Which means the outcome, if bad, could just add to your worry and resentment, not take away from it?

I really don't think you need to fear believing the wrong thing for the rest of your life! The truth isn't like that. It makes itself available to anyone looking for it and lots of people who aren't.

If you failed a polygraph and were unfairly lumped with a PA, you would ask the polygrapher what went wrong and how to pass. You'd resit. But there would definitely be a reason why you had failed, physical contact with a stripper or something like that, and you'd have to come clean about any hidden half truths before expecting to pass.

BrainHurts,

I will decide on one or two questions today, and I will email the Harleys. Thank you for your encouragement.

Indiegirl,

I get it now. I understand how the truth can be ferreted out on a poly. Thank you for explaining that to me. I'll call the poly agency today. Boy, that honesty thing is a real stickler, particularly for us women, isn't it.

Unwritten,

Good question. Yes, that could be very true, and if I did stay under those circumstances I would find it very hard to respect myself. To be honest, I don't really know what I would do. I would want to leave, but it is almost unthinkable at this point. Other than my child and her family, I have no one but my H. and his family. That is it. He is my family, everyone else is gone.

And there is the resentment. Back a number of posts ago, a few posters said they were shocked by my attitude when I had said I didn't "give a sh**t. Well, I'm shocked I said that too because it is not true. I do care and have always cared. I think it was the resentment poking up its ugly head when I said that.

I'm angry at myself too. I grew up in a generation of women with one foot in the 1950's and one foot in the 60's/70's. There began to be some choices about careers and family. I chose the more traditional road. I didn't put a career first as some did because my H seemed to require a lot of attention. I worried a career for me would lead to a D, and it probably would have. I worked as much or as little as our life demanded. In doing that I had to put my life in his hands so to speak. I was very dependent financially. I always second guessed myself about allowing myself to be so vulnerable while other women were now making careers for themselves. In other ways , I am quite an independent kind of woman(I've had to rein that IB too) In order to handle the precarious financial circumstances I was allowing myself to be in, I think I really had to lock down my fears and insecurities to really trust my H. with my life. And I did trust him! I'm wrangling with all that resentment now. If I'd done things differently maybe I wouldn't be in this predicament at this late date in my life.

This kind of looking back at the "I should haves" is very unproductive, I know. I need to get past the resentment while holding the bar high. As I said in my previous post to Indie and BrHurts. I'll get on the ball with the poly and the email to the Harleys today.

It is true that poly's can encourage the WS to come clean, before a passed poly or after a failed one. But the worse scenario (IMO) is a failed poly and the WS casually faulting a inaccurate poly for that fact, and/or refusing to take another one. Because then you are left with more questions than you had before the poly. You still don't know the truth, you just know there is still more lies, yet meanwhile wanting to toy with the idea that it is *possible* the poly was just wrong. What a mental mess that creates.

So, plan for that possibility in advance. Make a plan of what you would do in that scenario.

I had my WH take a poly. Had he failed I would have 100% believed that he was protecting secrets and that he had no intention of ever telling me what those were. I could not have stayed in a marriage like that and would have divorced.

Yes, Unwritten, that "mental mess" of a senario had been rumbling around in my mind also. So how does one go about choosing between two unthinkable options? I know the MB concept that separation can be the best chance at saving an M if one wants to save it. But then the question is of course, would I want to save it with all that lingering unsurity. I think I would remain paralyzed.

This whole conversation I have been having on this forum in the past few days has really gotten me to do some hard thinking.

One of the first steps I have on my "To Do List" is to re-connect with my religious community with whom I was once very involved with. When I went through what my good friend refers to as my "decade from hell" I withdrew from most everything, even my faith community. During those years the marriage was not the primary problem even with all of its exsisting problems. We actually hung together in a pretty supportive way...I thought. Now of course I realize my H had really abandoned me in a most important way. Anyway I had thought that horrible decade was finally over, and I finally had some room to breathe, but then that is when I began to take a close look at the marriage and some troubling signs and my decade from hell just got extended.

I realize I need to have some faith that no matter what happens, I will be able to handle it. I need the support of my caring faith community; I need to get back to them. I need to find my faith again.

Indie and BrainHurts
I'm waiting for call backs from two different agencies who do polys and I have gotten my thoughts more organized. I have written up my concerns and a couple of specific questions to Email the Harleys.

lightwalker,

I do want to say to you, that my MIL who is in her 80s never had the guidance to take the steps you are taking now. I believe you are in your 60's and I suspect had my MIL insisted on a confession, polygraph or apology in her 60's she would not be in such a horrible state of limbo and hatred now.

There is a cumulative effect of lies that go on for years and decades that is toxic.

Gamma

Fantastic lightwalker. Let us know when you hear back.

A quick question. If someone wanted to pursue polys, where exactly do you look to find one. I have no clue. Seriously, are they listed in the phone book? Are they done by certain types of agencies? If so, which ones? I have a certain mental image when it comes to these types of tests, and wouldn't have the foggiest as to where to look to see about getting this service.

www.polygraph.org

The career thing.....


My mother is a house wife. She hasn't worked since my brother was born. This does not make her dependant on my dad. She would kick him out over failure to PoJA and he knows it. She would still expect her due, financially and legally. Raising children is a job. Her standards are why they have a fantastic marriage and why her children and grandchildren worship her.

Most people don't think they would forgive an affair - until it happens and then all people want to know is if it's possible. Of course it is.

My grandfather was the breadwinner. What my grandmother earned was 'pin money' for dresses. Yet when he discovered her fledgling affair when they had a few toddlers, he fought like crazy for her. He didn't have any more options because of his job. They then raised nine children and dozens grandchildren and were in love well into old age and were only parted by death. They were the old couple who have it all,who you tend to see looking soppy when you've had a break up.

I've been a successful professional for many years. When my ex husband started spending all his nights and weekends with my friend, you didn't hear a peep out of me. Often I wasn't home myself. My salary was of no assistance at all in giving me courage and direction. In fact I have often wondered if my job had been at home, would I have been more protective and proactive as my mother is.

There's no correct life path to take to avoid this. It happens to everyone in all walks of life and they all have options of what to do when it does.

Gamma,

It is very sad your MIL is in her 80's and still so resentful and full of hate. I'm grateful for finding MB and this forum.

Thank you Indie for your insights about "the career thing." Your perspectives as well as those of other posters are always appreciated. It is easy to get entrenched in certain thoughts and attitudes. That is why this forum is so helpful.

BrainHurts,

I emailed my letter to Dr. Harley, but I've hit a bit of a snag with the poly. I had calls in to two agencies, but got no response and they had no email address listings. On further checking I found one was not credentialed. I called the one with the credentials again and found he had just retired. This was one had been in the business for 30 yrs. I asked for a possible referral to another polygrapher he might recommend and he said he hadn't found any he would recommend. I found a third even further away, but credentialed. When I called this one, it seems to have been a wrong number given out and also no email address given. Frustrating!! so I'm still looking for a polygrapher, but will keep trying.

Call a police agency in your area ( sheriff's office or state not local) and ask for the detective that does polygraphs. The detective can't administer but should be able to refer you to someone.

Good luck!

Thanks Ever2Late, I will check this out.

Please, Could someone post today's (6/8) MB radio clip to my thread? Thank you!

On 6/8 my email question was discussed on MB radio. I'm wondering if someone could either tell me how to post it on my thread, or if someone who knows how to do it could please post it here for me? I'm able to listen to the radio program using my H's phone, but I'm not able to receive it here on my tablet. No hurry as I have already listened to it--just when someone has the time I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

I will post it as soon as it hits the archives.

I haven't had a chance to listen, but did you tell Dr. Harley that your WH refuses to implement EPs and get 15 hours of UA?

I listened to your show, LW, and was very puzzled as to why the EP issue (which can't be implemented at your H's job) and the fact that your H says he cannot do the 15 hrs UA time was not addressed.

I am certain had Dr Harley know that, he would have said that's the reason that your R has stalled out (aka you said you don't know if you can fall back in love with your H).

Instead the focus of the letter that they read was about your H's mental health issues, the fact that you have both improved lovebusters and that your H continues to look at and compare you to younger women when you are out at restaurants.

Thank you BrainHurts, I appreciate it.

SusieQ and BrainHurts,

The letter which was read on the show was an edited version. Dr. Harley chose to discuss the flirtation and the problem of triggering. I believe in my letter I did say we were attempting to spend more UA time, but that I was not enjoying it due to the triggering, and Dr Harley did provide some advice on dealing with that which I found helpful.

I do understand his concept that for a woman that amount of UA time is essential to create love. I knew what his answer to that question would be. But there are two separate issues. One is making that UA time happen, and I am hoping the counselling with a coach can help us with that, and the second issue is that when we go out I'm not fully enjoying it and sometimes downright dreading it due to the PA issues and the issues with what I think might be obsessive interest in younger more attractive women. Not being a psychiatrist I don't know if it would be considered clinically obsessive or not. Dr. H did not address the MH issues. The reason I brought it up is in one radio broadcast a woman was having difficulty with her H because of his obsession with women of a particular type very unlike his W. She could never satisfy his PA needs. He also had OCD. Dr. H advised in this case the H needed to deal with his OCD with a specialist because his wife could never/should never be expected to try to meet his unrealistic expectation.

As far as the EP question related to monitoring my H's activity due to all equiptment being company owned, I didn't ask that. At this point I have yet to decide what I want to do about it. It sounds like the spying can be done if I am willing to do something illegal. My H is not the one stopping me from doing that. I am stopping me. I have to make that decision. Quitting his job is an issue we will need some assistance figuring out. I am hoping the coaching can help us with that.

Flirting is not happening in front of me (with one restaurant incident in which I was sitting next to him and didn't see him initiate anything, but he didn't respond to the waitress in a way I felt comfortable with) What I was attempting to ask Dr. H about was my own response to past issues. (his admission to extensive flirting and what I learned from his internet activities, and hurtful things he has said in the past. It is my issues with his past behavior rather than current behavior I am having most trouble with. It is what is in my head more than what is actually happening at the moment which lessens my ability to enjoy the UA time.

I couldn't ask all the questions I had so I narrowed it to a few issues which were affecting my enthusiasm for UA time since the UA time is so important.

Also I finally located an experienced, credentialed Polygrapher. He returned my call yesterday and spent about 45 minutes with me explaining the process and answering my questions. I felt very positive about the conversation with him. I think he is the guy. My H agreed.

But you did bring it up to Dr Harley in your letter, and his not commenting on it means that he did not think it was something that you should be focused on, LW.

You seem to be making the issues in your situation much more complicated than they need to be. All of this has already been addressed and rehashed several times on this thread. Yet you keep going back to your H's mental health issues.

1) EPs - getting spyware on your H's devices.

If you cannot do this, then I do not believe recovery will be possible in this case. I believe your H is either still engaging in his SSL (even if it's just LOOKING at other women) and even if he is not, as you stated, he is inapporpriately emailing female coworkers and you need to be monitoring him.

Even if he was not, not feeling safe because you can't see what he's up to while he's on the internet/phone is going to keep you triggered and resentful.

2) UA time. You have given us several reasons why this isn't happening. First you said that your H's work schedule was a hinderance. Then when you were told if that was the case, he should leave his job, you then said your H was dragging his feet on it, yet had time for recreational activities. Then when it was pointed out that if he won't follow through on UA time, you should consider separating, now you are telling us you don't want the UA time ???!

LW, I am a single divorced mother who works full time and only has a little bit of time to post. I have to start abandoning threads where people are resistant to the very very basics such as EPs and UA - there is no point on working on the other issues such as POJA and ENs if you can't even get the easier stuff nailed down.

I do hope you get the coaching and can get this recovery going. But I will point out that even with coaching, the recovery isn't going to move forward with the lack of EPs/transparency and the lack of UA time.

Good luck.

Thank you for your time SusieQ (and all other posters) You are absolutely right on all you have said, especially re the UA time. My H is dragging his feet and I am having difficulty due to the issues I mention. You are right about the ramifications of not getting the spyware on, or not leaving the job. The map is provided, but it is up to us to follow it. I agree you have said everything you possibly can. I appreciate you and all the others are very busy with your lives and are volunteering precious time. I agree you should move on to help others.

And especially the spyware.


Wouldn't it be better if you followed the plan? Do you want this situation to get better? There's a plan to follow if your husband works with you, and a plan to follow if he doesn't, and either way, it gets better for you.

Markos,

Oh yes, I do want it to be be better. And I know it must seem so obvious for those of you who have struggled their way through this already. We have stalled as SusieQ points out due to lack of UA time and the transparency problem. At the same time the marriage is so much better than it was. My husband has worked with me, but we've both had screw ups, particuularly in the last month. We are at a point we really need some outside help and encouragement. I've received it here, but my H hasn't. We can't do it on our own. That is why we've decided on getting the coaching. It may or may not help, but I would like to try it before I would decide to separate. If My H was refusing to do MB, get the coaching, take a poly, was making no progress with eliminating LB's then I know I would have to separate. Where we are right now it doesn't seem so clear. Thank you for your thoughts on this Markos. I know you have been through it all.

lightwalker, one of the most glaring problems I see is that you are not holding him accountable. You have set the bar so low that he is just living down to your expectations. If you won't hold him accountable, I don't see how a complete stranger - a coach - can do that.. Does your husband refuse to follow these very basic extraordinary precautions?

But you will still have to separate if you cant snoop, can't do EPs and can't do UA time - you understand that right? That it will not be a matter of choice? Without these things it simply isn't possible to sustain it. People have tried!

Think of your marriage like a house:

EPs are the locks on the door.
UA time is time spent in your house.


Now - lots of people take on recovery willing only to do some tarting up and decorative work on their house. They choose new curtains, they put up pictures. They might stop actively destroying their house in this phase.

They talk about how much 'better' that is - but anything would be better than where they have been.

At the end of the day, you will still have a house with no locks on the doors, open to any intruder.... how long will that last?

Plus you don't spend any time in it anyway. Would you buy a house you could only spend a handful of hours per week in?

The house might not be getting actively destroyed but your improvements and hopes will not survive such neglect!

MelodyLane,

I know the bar has been set way too low for so many years, and from the MB perspective the marriage is not even close. I hope the coach might be able to motivate my H. Sometimes a stranger might be able encourage better than others, just as this forum does. Reading up on the MB accountability program they stress their effectiveness in working with reluctant spouses, so I'm hoping. The UA time is the key. My H is not refusing, we are just not getting in that 15 plus, but way more than ever before. He no longer engages in the IB behavior of leaving me for out of town recreation on a regular basis. We are now spending all of our weekends together. He no longer even considers that IB. If after working together with a coach the marriage is not up to MB standards then I know there would have to be a separation because I would never be able to let go of all of the hurt and resentment the nightmare A has caused.

Indiegirl,

Your use of the house in disrepair without locks is an apt description of the situation. I know I will have to be able to snoop effectively if I am ever to feel safe. Because those EPs are so essential, I understand SusieQ's (and any other posters) reasoning to discontinue posting on my thread if I am not willing to follow through on this part of the plan.

This is a problem I am still wrestling with. If it were not illegal I would have the spyware on now even though I would be terrified I would bungle it. If his company found out, they should thank me. If my H found out, he would be crazy to out me with the way he has misused his phone he would be ashamed if they knew. It is not civil authority I am concerned about, but the much higher authority. My religious faith specifically requires I abide by the civil laws. So it is a matter of my own conscience and no one can help me with this. I have to decide.

The only other choice is for my H to leave the job which would probably mean retiring a few years early. We would take a huge hit financially. It would be my financial future probably impacted the most. The reality is unless you are super healthy after a certain age you have fewer options. It's harder to see that when one is young. So I am weighing it. Of course divorce would be the very worst option from a financial standpoint.

Snooping and the other EP's would be possible when he leaves that job. I want to love my husband again and feel safe. I do know that will require snooping, EP's and UA time.

Is there really a law which prohibits you, a married woman, from seeing something your husband (one flesh with you), has freely been given access to? How is that law phrased then?

Ghandi and Martin Luther King kept to a higher authority one saying "An unjust law is itself a species of violence" the other saying we had a civil duty to disobey unjust laws.

I don't know what religion you follow, but it sounds like they would have found Nazi Germany rather problematic.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not encouraging lawlessness per se, just pointing out that your religion probably has rules regarding preventing violence, protecting fidelity, self defence and tackling evil generally. In situations where some small bylaws contradict the bigger rules of morality, surely your religion allows you to choose a priority. It's unthinkable your religion compels you to be cheated on passively, or to gas Jews on command. I rather think the strict adherence to civil code here is more likely to be your own interpretation born of fear.

If however you are sure that the snooping is unconscionable, then your remaining option is to separate unless he can voluntarily provide transparency by leaving the job.

It's your only option anyway really. He isn't providing the 15 hours on four set days a week for four hours (14 hours or less is the same as not bothering at all). Until he is doing that BEFORE he does anything else (sleep eat, go to work) he isn't remorseful or healing you.

If he's not remorseful or healing you, you aren't hanging in there for recovery.

You are hanging in there waiting for the false recovery to be revealed with another Dday.

He needs to be remorseful today, fully on board today, or you need to separate today.

Indiegirl,

I hadn't brought up the religious aspect before because I thought it might be controversial for the very reasons you mention. I would fault no one of any religion, even my own, for following their conscience on this one either way, and I know there is no one on this board advocating lawlessness.

I'm not of the faith of either of the admirable individuals you mention. My faith does ask believers to follow the laws of the land in which they reside, but it is not asking for blind adherance. If for instance there were a law advocating murder, that law would be in conflict with the higher spiritual laws and of course it would not be followed. I don't think I can apply that principle to this particular situation. It's a personal decision I have to make. The snooping itself isn't the issue, it makes sense.

There is a law prohibiting you from looking at your husband's devices? The only actual law I know of would be HIPPA.

Hi Apples,

I don't think spyware would be illegal if his phone, vehicle and computer belonged to our family. In my circumstance the company my H works for owns all of it. It is my understanding in that case spyware would be illegal.

Then he should request VPN access to the system andid only use your personal computer.

Also, why did I think your husband owned par tofu the company? Am I remembering correctly?

Apparently 'part of' is no longer a real word for autocorrect.

Is there an issue of proprietary information? Most companies can monitor an employees computer remotely. Does his work know what has happened?

I don't believe there would be anything HIPPA related, and nothing proprietary. I'm not savy with anything tech related; what does the VPN access refer to?

The A was over for more than a year and the OW was no longer an employee there by the time I learned of it. The A was never exposed to the company. I wish they had been remotely monitoring, but they sure haven't seemed to be doing it. The stuff I saw certainly would not be fit for their "family owned, family centered business" (those were the words used in a professional magazine by the then HR Director who was also the OW!)

Tofu Company? Funny! No, he's not a part-owner in the company.

Lightwalker, he could expose to his company and request access on your behalf then?

I've been thinking about doing this from the very beginning. I'm thinking of exposing her to the company, eventually. I think they should know about the situation though she no longer works there. I believe the facts of the situation should be a part of her employee records. As an HR administator, her position affords her more opportunity to be discussing personal problems of a confidential nature, in a confidential setting--a perfect opportunity to prey on those who are vulnerable in a perfect setting for starting an A. I believe the woman is on her 4th marriage and has a reputation as being very promiscous. She shouldn't be working in that position.

What is stopping me is the fact that I don't have the spyware and other EP's in place. She was there for many years and has a lot of friends still working there. I am afraid somehow she could catch wind of all of this and my nagging feeling is telling me it could trigger her to contact my H to find out what is going on. If the company agreed to allowing him to change his contact info, and allowing me the acccess so I could be monitoring effectively I wouldn't worry as much about this, but if they didn't allow it, which I suspect they wouldn't, I would just be opening up the potential for more problems, I think.

Once my H is out of there one way or another and I am using the spyware, I would like to expose the A to the company. I have already contacted the HR professional organization she belongs to in order to find out their professional standards and sanctions. Unfortunately, according to their policies the report would have to have been made by an HR organization member within a certain time frame. I think I may furnish them with the info anyway at some point in time.

The whole issue of my H's job may take care of itself. He just did a rather odd, off-the- wall kind of thing which offended the company CEO (he says and does that kind of thing at work as well as at home) so maybe the issue is going to resolve itself...

So the fence is down. And the cows are out...... eventually the cows will probably come back to the barn if the fence gap is still open.
So if the cows are at the barn that resolve the issue? No, it does not.

To put it another way.....You are comforting yourself at the campfire while the house burns down.

You aren't looking at the big picture. Get out there. Fix the fence, and fight the fire. i.e. Set the bar high.
It sounds like you are hoping you can sit and wait for the issues to resolve themselves and that's not the way it works. You are running yourself ragged paying and paying and continuing to pay the price for not following a clear cut plan.

Why not set the bar higher? For example, if you can't monitor work stuff then the job has to go for you to stay and not because he got fired. There's no EP in taking the easy way out of the job. You are hoping to wait until it gets easier. It doesn't, you just have to perpetually restart the plan from the beginning until you are willing to make your marriage priority. As long as you stay noncommittal about what needs to happen recovery will be equivocal.

What is happening with the polygraph?

So the fence is down. And the cows are out...... eventually the cows will probably come back to the barn if the fence gap is still open.
So if the cows are at the barn that resolve the issue? No, it does not.

To put it another way.....You are comforting yourself at the campfire while the house burns down.

You aren't looking at the big picture. Get out there. Fix the fence, and fight the fire. i.e. Set the bar high.
It sounds like you are hoping you can sit and wait for the issues to resolve themselves and that's not the way it works. You are running yourself ragged paying and paying and continuing to pay the price for not following a clear cut plan.

Why not set the bar higher? For example, if you can't monitor work stuff then the job has to go for you to stay and not because he got fired. There's no EP in taking the easy way out of the job. You are hoping to wait until it gets easier. It doesn't, you just have to perpetually restart the plan from the beginning until you are willing to make your marriage priority. As long as you stay noncommittal about what needs to happen recovery will be equivocal. [/quote buildsherhouse,

Wishful thinking on my part, yes. My comment was made with a sick smile on my face. I know the issue won't resolve itself; there will be no easy solution here, but I am so tired of hard--as in being between a rock and a hard place for so long. The solution would be for H to quit the job, but that will be making a decision with potentially huge financial consequences for me and no time left to make up the difference. That is a tough decision for me to make. I have got to quit waivering back and forth. Thank you for your encouragement.

I found a polygrapher I would feel confidence in. H and I discussed it and he agreed.I have a call in to set up the appt. just waiting for a call back.

VPN access means he would take a device you guys own (like a personal laptop or tablet) to work and have the IT people there install software on it that allows him to connect remotely to whatever tech resources his company uses and do his work on your guys device instead of a company computer. That way you could key log it since its yours.

It will depend on the company culture as to whether they agree to this but most companies typically allow this.

Ah ha! ok. When my H sent the email to their IT guy asking about the possibility of his being able to access his work computer remotely, the guy sent back an email saying he couldn't do it, that it would require a special software. We took that as a no answer. Knowing companies typically do this, I will have him follow up on this, especially since it might solve the problem. I could have it done on my device since that is the only one we have and I could put the spyware on it. I will follow up on this. Thank you Axslinger!!!

They might still say no. But it doesn't hurt at all to ask.

Is this your show?

Radio Clip of lightwalker's question

Yes. Thank you BrainHurts, I really appreciate your taking the time to do this for me.

You're welcome.