Hello everyone, some may remember me from several posts I�ve had here when my wife had a 4 month affair over 5 years ago.

About a year after the affair we relocated to start over and along with us we had two of our three daughters move as well.

Today I didn�t know where to turn regarding my now 18 year old daughter. I know this site is mainly for marriage and relationship issue but the advise I received here when going through the affair was the only honest counseling I could find when desperate.

So I would say relocating 5 hours from our home town was an adjustment for everyone and we are actually looking to move back, not to our hometown, but the western half of the state to be closer to extended family.

Anyway my DD18 I thought adjusted well? She began high school here and through her junior year started on the softball team, stayed out of trouble and was an honor student.

She had limited �relationships� but did date a guy in her junior year who was a great guy in many aspects but he was an exchange student and ended having to return to the UK and would try to get back soon, so they tried to continue long distance for some time.

All started to go downhill about December of this past year. DD18 was with a girlfriend from the softball team and stopped over a house where some guys were �hanging out�. DD18 began conversing with a guy a refer to as OM. The two talked on and off but the general word was OM was not the most stellar of a guy; some drug use, expelled from school, no family foundation and no real home address.

As DD18 and OM relationship progressed, the first major incident occurred. DD18 was discovered not to come home one night after lying about where she was and was later found to have traveled to NYC!!! DD18 ended up flopping at some house with OM and totally disregarding contacting us. DD18 let other les desirable guys drive her car she worked hard to get.

Several other incidents on and off occurred all surrounded by lies and deceit to be with OM. This countinued for months where it got the point where DD18 told me on one occasion �ya I probably need to get out of this place�.

This occurred literally 6 weeks before HS graduation. We spoke with school guidance and were able to get her away for 2 weeks. I transported DD18 to our hometown where she lived with her older sister and did her school work online.

The school insisted DD18 return in order to graduate HS which left about 2 weeks prior to graduation.

Once returning we found out that DD18 never totally disengaged from relationship with OM and soon enough we were again catching her in lies in order to see him.

I explain this extensively and felt it appropriate to post here because her behavior very closely mimics that of an affair! DD18 is virtually addicted to this OM and will lie cheat steal and coniv to see him. DD18 has risked nearly everything; car, possible graduation, college, family just to be with this OM.

We thought DD18 was winding the relationship down after leaving for a short time, then the unthinkable occurred.

This past Sunday, father day, DD18 walked downstairs and said she was going swimming at a neighbors pool wh we know and trust. DD18 had a backpack on and looked the part. DD18 walked out the front door and sent my wife a text message reading �there is a note under my pillow�. To sum up the note it stated she had thought long and hard about her life and decided that she was joining the military and was picked up by a recruiter.

After extensive research I found that she got a ride to Delaware where OM was with his �dad� after getting evicted from an apartment here. In the meantime she was listed as a missing person because PA law does allow for this if under 21.

Bottom line she is addicted to this OM and has given up her life for him. He is going nowhere and I fear the worst. I fear he is totally using her, getting in her head and she is flushing everything away slowly.

DD18 has recently had limited contact with us but did text saying she was fine and not interested in returning home. DD18 texted me today asking for some of her HS graduation money that I am keeping in a separate account. I told her the money was here at home.

Any advise?

Welcome back, Kgaa12. Unfortunately, when it comes to your kids and their choices, your options are greatly limited. My daughter eloped with a guy who never works and spends all his time hanging around the house, drinking beer.

My advice to you is to be there for your daughter to catch her when she falls. Don�t drive her further away. Don�t facilitate her bad choices, but don�t try any heavy-handed things, either. The fact is that there is little you can do to control her, but you can still be her rock.

Hi KGAA, I would urge you to write Dr Harley. I predict he is going to tell you there is nothing you can do but that you should do your best to keep a good relationship with your daughter. Don't lecture her, don't get mad at her, just be as supportive as possible. You can't stop her, but eventually she will come out from that cloud and you want to have a great relationship with her when she does. Don't wreck your relationship with her. She will eventually come to her senses.

P.S. My son went a little crazy when he was 19 and he is now 35 and a wonderful, responsible, happy adult. He has a great career and our relationship is fantastic. The craziness does go away!

Agreed and been taking that approach via text when she does.

Do you feel I responded appropriately when she requested I get her graduation money to her so she could buy more food and tampons?

I told her that her grad money was here, at home, safe and secure and she�s always welcome home; no questions asked..

I would give her the money. it is her money. To withhold money from an adult is a punishment.

She will view an action like that as extortion. It undermines your relationship and reduces the likelihood that she will turn back to you in the future.

I wrote to Dr Harley a couple of years ago about my DD, when she was about 18. She had failed her first semester of college and I just felt she was immature, making bad decisions, acting entitled, etc.

He basically told me that he tells parents of late adolescent girls to close your eyes and wait for the time to pass. He said most of these girls will mature into great women even when it doesn't seem that way. He told me to let her learn from her own mistakes, that my advice would be ignored and would cause resentment.

He was SO right.

That was about three years ago. At the time I wrote to him, I didn't realize how much I was driving her away by trying to tell her what to do. I basically try to be her cheerleader in life and avoid DJ's. Our relationship is very strong now, she talks to me about EVERYTHING and she is doing well. She has matured a lot on her own. I'm sure she will still make a lot of mistakes but that's part of what life is about...

I truly appreciate the insight at this time. This has been a tough pill to swollow.

I know it doesn�t matter in the big picture but this guy she ran off with was expelled from HS, dabbles or does sell marijuana and it is know through even some of DD18 girlfriends that he has had multiple sex partners.

Anyway, very hard to come to terms with handing her over cash that she will likely use for the most inappropriate things.

We agree of how to handle and she must see this for herself and we pray that she comes out of it somewhat unscathed?

She texted my wife today and said she was going to the Verizon store to see why her phone was not letting her make phone calls and that she would call one of us later today.

What should we say to her IF she calls? What is she asks for money for her phone to be fixed? That is her lifeline to us the way I look at it?

Do we not encourage her to return home, or just offer that we are here for her and always available to help whenever she is in need.

What is she tries to convince us this is a good thing that she needs for herself all while we know what a piece of
$&@� this OM is?

DD18 May also request to come to house to get her belongings she left behind? Do we give her what is hers?

One final question about the graduation money? On her way out she stole $40 from her younger sisters room. DD14 is quit upset about this and entire situation. Do we subtract that $40 from her money before giving it back to her?

Thank you all again!

KGAA, you need to let this go. She is an adult now. Give her the money and allow her to take her belongings. You can tell her you are disappointed that she took money from her sister and ask if you can take it out of her money. Don't fight with her or give her any lectures. And yes, you can tell her you miss her and that the door is open for her to return.

Since the boyfriend is a POS, that relationship will soon fall apart and she will need you then. Don't wreck the relationship because she will need to come back.

After getting Dr Harley's advice that I mentioned above, I sat my DD down. I think I even told her someone that I trust told me to let her make her own choices and just support her....I apologized and basically let her know that's what I was going to do from then on.

I agree with ML that it is fine to let her know you are there for her and she can come home any time. BUT when the conversation is trailing into language that sounds like you "know better" than she does, that's when you're going into DJ territory. Avoid that, unless you want to drive her further away.

I agree and appreciate this insight. I did apologize to her about not being more understanding on things and let her know we love her and and here for her whenever she may want to return home; not questions asked.

What I am struggling with is what is deemed �support�? I can�t allow myself to support in any fashion this relation with the OM. He has brain washed her and is using her and doesn�t even have a job of Hs diploma. DD18 knows I will never accept him into the family and I guess maybe that�s why she snooped around and left for him.

I will give her the money we committed to but is that the end of the financial support?

DD18 is accepted at Penn State, we paid admission fees
Signed loan papers, now this. She also left her car here which has a loan in our name, is registered to my wife and I and carries our insurance. DD18 in her letter said we could sell it.

Do we just take the stance that we will support her in healthy ways but when are we enablers to furthering the life with the POS OM?

Thank to all...

Doesn't she need the car at college?

We believe that she has �flopped� at his guys dads apartment, neither one of them have jobs or money; at this point anyway?

She called and I spoke with her for a few minutes; told her I was here for her, she always could come home and I want the best for her and her future.

I asked about college and she replied she would have to let us know.

She asked about the car if she continues to make payments?

I said she could have the car if she made payments but she would have to obtain her own insurance in her name.

The reason for this is because previously she had allowed this POS to drive along with his friends who are not licensed and our around drug dealers.

I will not assume liability but will not hold her car hostage if she can make payments and provide her own insurance.

If she attends college I will support her; but the liability is too steep with POS behind the wheel

What I am getting from you sound like rationalizations to justify your actions. If I, an uninvolved stranger, think that, what will your daughter think?

Accept the fact that you can not control your adult daughter, and do those things that will maximize your chances for a good relationship with her in the future.

This situation is cutting to the core of DD18 mother, sisters and of course me as a father.

After ready the replies here I am intellectually in agreement, but what is unexplainable is how she left?

Grandparents travels here for her HS graduation, sister came from college for the summer to be here ect...

Than she just vanished, with such a drastic change in direction.

After reaching out to her yesterday via text; we don�t hear from her hardly at all and conversation is almost always initiated on our end, DD18 asked about her graduation money. Based on the advise here, I told her that my wife and I wanted to get the money to her because it was our gift to her for graduating HS.

I spoke with her briefly about her (our) car and gave her the option if she wanted to continue with the payments or sell it as SHE indicated in her �goodbye� letter.

I did specify that she would have to secure her own insurance ONLY because of the liability I can not afford to assume.

She said she would let me know on the car situation?

Am I handling this car deal correctly? Car is registered to wife and I and under our insurance policy.

DD18 was making payments to me and I in turn pay the loan.

We had restricted her from car use when I witnessed a car load of what I call �thugs� driving the car while she was working? They are into bad things and not licensed.

I want to handle this best to eventually have my DD18 get her life on the right path, but so can�t be sued if some thug committed crimes or crashes car under my name.

I think you should definitely shelter yourself from liability with the car. However, if you are the owner of the car, even if she carries the policy, do you not still have some liability? I would offer to help her get the car transferred to her name if she is interested in continuing the payments, as well as letting her take over her own insurance.

This is the double edge of adulting. She wants to be treated like an adult who has the right to make her own decisions and make mistakes if that the route she goes, and she should be. But also, being an adult means you need to take care of your own responsibilities.

I liken it to our Plan A in an affair, just because you try to woo a spouse back into the marriage does not mean you also support the affair. Same concept would apply here.

Sorry you are going through this, I have a 17 yo daughter and can only imagine how hard it is.

I think the car liability issue is a red herring. It is like worrying that you could be liable for an accident if your car is stolen. Teens allow unauthorized drivers in their parent�s cars all the time. Accidents happen all the time. So, where are all these lawsuit-bankrupted parents?

I would worry more about the real risks present here and not seek to invent new imaginary ones.

Could some logical compromise perhaps be applying the money to the balance owed on the car? Would it come close to obliterating the car loan to let it simply be transferred to her?

Just spitballing here.

That is for insight. I find it valuable when posting here that people can provide their perspective that are not emotionally attached to the situation.

It has been hard but I am working hard to keep busy and stay in my routine.

Their has been scattered texts over the past week and my wife and I each spoke on the phone with her; my wife a little bit longer.

DD18 was requesting money for essentials and I sent her $100 of the graduation money until I gather the rest together to send her.

She is contemplating the car situation and she expressed that she doesn�t nessasarly wish to sell since she has so much already invested with a payoff of about $1,500.

I feel confident about the option to her about taking on her own insurance policy; she knows deep down my disapproval of this �boy� she has chosen and it is all for good reason.

I feel that yes, DD18 can legally make her own choices and I have come to the harsh reality that there is not too much I can do; BUT she needs to understand that all choices come with change; some good, some bad.

If DD18 feels it is best to shack up with this looser, forgo college at this time, find employment to likely support his laziness then that�s life as she has chosen but mom and dad aren�t throwing money in support of that venture.

If she wishes to come home at any point the door is open with a full fridge and support.

Kgaa I thought it was an unlikely thing my sister would get in an accident in the car I co-signed for her, but she got into an accident with both our names in the car and my insurance and attorney told me I could be sued even though my name was not on her insurance. My sister could not afford to fix her license for years. My misplaced trust wound up hurting her for many years. Your daughter can be considered accessory to a crime if the thugs use her car as a getaway one, please talk to your attorney and find out what harms way your misplaced trust puts her in so you can make an informed decision.

I vaguely remember Dr. H talking about a son whose car was taken away as a young adult. I think you could still reach out to him as others suggested. I think you can love and support her without throwing privileges to the wind or rewards for no accomplishment. Our insurance agent recommended that we carry an umbrella policy to cover any events related to our young adult kids. He said that it would be tough to prove no responsibility for them if we have a history of supporting them in any way during their young adult years. Maybe it�s just a way to sell more insurance...

So sorry that this has happened, but better for her to learn now than later. If college time gets close, and she still isn�t ready, maybe you can help her defer her enrollment for a semester. It�s so frustrating when other parents facilitate situations like this!

Kgaa, is your daughter's boyfriend married? I'm confused as to why you are referring to him as "OM" (other man). It's not an affair, right?

No. Didn�t know what to call him.

Some of you may have heard radio segment discussion our situation?

I am greatful Dr. H took the time to address. Wife and I met with DD18 at pizza shop and were greatful we could see her but saddened by just how �dogged out� she is in relation to this relationship and her approach on life.

DD18 told us she was going to interview for a job that paid well and she would go from there. DD18 later advised us via text that she did secure the job but provided virtually no details.

Discovered that DD18 traveled with POS back to our general area which is about an hour from where she was staying. DD18 has failed to contact us while in town but we have seen pictures of POS and other associates online.

We understand there is little we can do. We are sickeneded and worried of what she is getting involved in with this crew and reach out to her now and then just to see if she will call us to hear she is ok?

The rest of the family is on edge all the time because of the stress and anxieties this has created. Both of her sisters have no interest in even speaking with DD18 because of the just she has caused.

I worry about her safety and possible drug use?

What day were you on the show?

I didn't get to hear the show but hopefully I can hear it down the road ... what did Dr. Harley advise?

Here is your radio show.
Radio Clip of KGaa12�s question
Segment 2
Segment 3

I heard the show. I'm sorry that you are dealing with this! Hopefully the job will show her the value if going to college. Our son learned that by working at a job where he saw many employees "stuck" because they had no other options.

As a sidenote to previous posters on this thread, Dr. H and Joyce did say on the show that they agreed with the advice which had been given here, to show love and support to her, and even to her boyfriend.

I really do appreciate all the help here; I for sure can admit I am not doing well with this.

We have not heard from her again for days and any texts are questionable even if it is actually her.

The boyfriend and his crew are really bad news and I wonder at times if she is truly ok or even alive.

This crew are nearly homeless kids that dabble in the drug trade and are complete thugs.

I will never welcome him into my home; I worry more that him and her might try stealing from us? It would be a safety issue.

We are trying to support her when emotionally were crushed and worried all the time we will get that �call�.

I guess not much we can do; but hope and pray she is ok and eventually sees the light

Thanks, BrainHurts! Didn't realize it would be out yet.

I am so sorry, KGaa. I hope this is short lived.

Could you keep the valuables locked up and only give them access to the living room and a bathroom? When I have guests in my house they don't go into our bedroom and if they did we'd invite them to leave.

I'm talking about a day visit of a couple hours, not an overnight.

I really worry that your anger shows in the strength of your desire to make a statement to her.

I�m sorry you are dealing with this. I have two teenagers and can imagine that what looks to be the right way to handle it on paper, is really hard to do in reality because of the emotions involved. I guess it aligns with every other MB advice, of making strategic decisions not based on emotions. If it helps at all, since she is an adult, there really is no other option. You can�t abduct her against her will, which leaves you with verbally berating her poor decisions, which will only push her away. The only option is to do what you are doing.

I just want to point out here that this is a very difficult time for your marriage too! I have seen many friends have marital problems when they have had to work together to handle difficult child issues. I just want to advise you to make sure you are focusing on IC and POJAing your decisions regarding DD18. Make sure you are staying true to the MB way of life more than ever right now.

Wife and I are doing �ok� in marriage. We are more or less on the same page and she is in line with the advice we are getting here and from Dr. H.

Our emotions ramp up when we don�t hear from her for days on end and she doesn�t answer text messaging that are very short and simple...�Hey, hows it going today�?

It�s her safety I worry most about. I don�t like him, don�t share any common values with him and have accepted this is her choice for however long it may be?

My wife heard from her very briefly after texting and calling her today numerous times.

DD18 said �mom just relax, I forgot I had to work this morning�

This is not the case because we know for a fact that she was in town today.

I think maybe we are empowering her to be more secure in her decision? Maybe we need to just let her go and pray for the best?

I can tell you after raising 7 kids with the youngest being 21 that this was very common with girls who want their independence. And I strongly, strongly caution to you about sending tons of messages when they don�t answer right away because it will push them away more.

Demonstrating a marriage that makes your wife phenomenally happy is a good way to show your daughter there's a better way to live.

Didn'tQuit, when was the show?

never mind! thanks Brainhurts!

Well to sum up the last week or so, we�ve had somewhat limited conversations with DD18 between wife and I.

Most conversation has been via text with a couple of calls mixed in. DD18 is working a job and the two of them remain living at boyfriend fathers house with several people in the home.

In a text conversation DD18 had with wife DD18 basic position is that since turning 18 we treated her like a child placing restrictions on her and generally not approving of her relationship with this male.

My wife and I position was that we only reacted to her behavior and advised against a relationship that we viewed as unhealthy for her for reasons DD18 admitted to.

DD18 states she is very in touch with how she feels and that people can change and my wife more than anyone should understand this?

DD18 says she wants to have a relationship with us however minimal but basically we need accept her relationship with this guy.

Ok, she is an adult now. You need to hold your fire. Stop criticizing her and start treating her as an adult. If you stop being a critic she will be much more likely to ask for advice. You and your wife's "reactions" are unhealthy when dealing with an ADULT child.

You have to get used to holding your tongue if you want to keep your children in your life as they grow up. Like Dr Harley told me once about my grown son, BUTT OUT.

I heard your call, I know how hard it is to accept your daughter�s choice here. Do you think it is something you can try?

From my reading of this thread, your DD is right.

This kind of response is going to drive your DD further away. Is that what you want?

You could have just said:
You're right, we're sorry.

Yup. If you don't want to drive your daughter further away you must start doing what Dr. Harley and the others have told you.

In my experience, the only time I can offer criticism or unsolicited advice to another adult is if they ask me for it.

Otherwise, they will be upset with me.

I 100% expect this to be true for my adult children some day as well.

By the way, I love my father, and he and I got along great, but after I became grown his unsolicited advice and criticism DROVE ME NUTS and HURT ME and HURT MY WIFE. I had to draw a major line that this was not going to ever, ever be tolerated.

Try this.

It sounds suspiciously like Dr. Newton Hightower's "psychological ping pong" exercise.

Highly recommended.

Trying to talk myself back into a better mind frame and react how I am really feeling.

DD18 has had suspiciously very little contact with any of us for almost a month.

About a week ago she told my wife via email only that she had dropped her cell phone in the toilet and she would be unable to receive calls or texts until it sat in rice to help try and fix?

Knowing my DD18 her whole life the emails and conversations don�t even sound like her writing them? It sounds almost like this guy she left with is the one communicating with us to keep us satisfied that she is ok and to keep us at bay?

It like he allows just enough to keep us from pursuing her and he has always been present when she is in communication with us.

DD18 said she was working in the area in Delaware she fled to, them an ex boyfriend of hers happened to see a google doc resume online that gave an address in the Bronx NYC?

I am really trying hard not to think the worst but this is not like her even in her worst moments.

I�ve tried to stay on course and just tell her we love her and would like to see her and it doesn�t even sound like her when she replies. It seems very scripted and she always signs her name in her email replies which she never did?

I even offered to replace her cell phone telling her we always want to have a way to speak with her but we would need an address to send the new device to?

She totally shut down and quit responding?

Should I be involving the authorities to make sure she didn�t get in too deep and is being held against her own will?

My wife is trying to arrange so we can see her but it always seems to fall apart or be diverted with some excuse or reason.

DD18 actually came into town over July 4th and didn�t even reach out to see any of us. When asked she said they weren�t even planning on originally coming there. This guy she is with is bad news and so is his family from what I�ve heard.

I just don�t want to be missing something and be making a big mistake.

Just leave her alone.

Years ago there was a young woman killed in our area. Her killer had her phone and continued to use it to contact her friends and family to convince them she was alive and fine. Some of her friends and family felt the communications didn't sound like her and called the authorities, who then discovered she was dead. That type of thing is very rare. Odds are your daughter is "ok" and just making some bad choices in her life right now. But if you really are worried that she might be in a dangerous situation, you could call the police to do a "welfare check" on her...they'd make contact, establish if she's OK or not. Or are there any friends of hers that could confirm for you that they've seen her and spoken with her and she's OK? If you verify she is alright, just not living the life you want for her, then you need to accept her choices.

If you do have someone check on her, authorities or otherwise, she might very well get angry and be driven even further away from you...so personally, I wouldn't take that route unless I really felt I needed to.


Good luck...that has to be awful being so worried about her and no way to get peace of mind.

Being worried about your adult children without being able to do anything about it is pretty much what the normal end game of child rearing. You always worry about your adult kids. But if you want to have a relationship with them, you have to respect them, as well.

This is so true what mrEureka has said!!

I understand the mindset explained here and I humbly have taken this course with my DD18 who still remains living with this boyfriend.

I realize there is nothing I can do. Wife and I continue to speak with her on a very strange and limited basis over snap chat because a couple weeks back her cell phone was ruined when she told us �she dropped it in the toilet �.

I have come to terms that DD18 made her own decision to leave everyone and everything behind in clouding her college education, car and family but what I just can�t seem to grasp is why you have to give everything up in your life in pursuit of this relationship?

I actually took Dr. H advise and engaged in an email conversation with this new boyfriend.

He stated that �we� didn�t like him and made it too difficult for the two of them to see each other.

I told him that I can not cast that judgement on him because I never had the opportunity to get to know the real him and could only witness over the past year from a distance who my daughter was becoming since engaging in this relationship.

I also expressed my concern for her future because she had given up on all other things and that I didn�t understand why their relationship couldn�t continue but DD18 could also build her life in the process?

Boyfriend stated that he never got in the way of DD18 continuing her education and actual encouraged it. He said DD18 decisions are hers to make and he stays out of it.

I pretty much ended the conversation with an invite to sit down and speak with us in our home.

He declined to meet in our home and preferred to meet in a public place where he felt less intimidated.

I have basically spoke with DD18 for 2 hours in person since she left, and a total of maybe a half hour over the phone.

DD18 car still remains in our driveway with wife and I pmakingnpayments and keeping insured.

DD18 indicated in one conversation that her and boyfriend were close to getting money together to pay of balance of car?

That was a pretty disrespectful response to her boyfriend, wasn't it? I think if you don't learn how to filter that out you're at risk for not having your daughter in your life at all.

It's not about who is right or wrong or who is good or bad for your daughter. Your daughter is going to go through with this whether it is a mistake or not, and nothing you do can stop it, not even telling him you think he's been bad for your daughter.

I think your daughter is trying to run away from you because you are very controlling towards her, like this.

You did good inviting him to your home. I think that shows progress - you wouldn't have been willing to do that awhile back.

But I think he feels pretty sure that the conversation would involve you expressing disrespect for him.

Remember, this is about emotion, not at all about logic. There's nothing to be gained by trying to persuade him (or her) that he has been bad for her. Her subjective appraisal of that is going to outweigh all the logic or facts you could ever offer on that.

I guess I am somewhat confused in the position expressed here?

I know before my DD18 left the house my wife and I both were very much on top of her with the thought that we had her best interests in mind when setting boundaries in her life while living at home.

What is never mentioned here is how DD18 was an habitual liar which we found out after the fact.

Example. DD18 had a hostess job at local restaurant. We asked her what time she worked to at night so we knew when to expect her home.

We later found out she wasn�t even working the shifts she indicated and was lending her car out to non licensed drivers.

This is all neither here nor there, I believe me I completely understand at 18 she can make her own choice and tell us to jump off a cliff. Am I not still supposed to be a dad and call the balls and strikes in life as I see them?

I didn�t just make up the fact that this guy she is dating has less then desirable values. I�ve not only witnessed it but my own DD18 admitted it several times about him indicating she believed people can change and she is a good influence on his life.

I know I have to accept what I have no right to decide and change in someone else�s life, but it can still be what it is in reality; can�t it?

Drugs are drugs, living together before marriage is still not good, a higher education typically leads to a more productive life ect ect...

I don�t feel I control her, I am just her dad and want to protect her and call it as I see it; she obviously can decide to travel down whatever road she chooses and I am here for her if she ever calls upon me.

Kgaa, she is eventually going to crash and burn because of her bad decisions. She needs life experience to grow into a successful adult, trust me. You need to be there for her when she is ready. I know it is very hard to watch but don't alienate her. You can't change her, but you can be there for her in a nonjudgemental way. Stop judging her.

I had to go through with it my son when he was a little older. Today he is a college graduate, a senior manager at Pepsico, married, owns a nice home and expecting his 1st child with his wife in January. But he scared me to death when he was in his late teens and even had to go to jail once for a few days for possession of marijuana! It was very painful. But that life lesson WOKE him up and he got back on track.

Just hang in there and protect your relationship. You will have more influence over her if you stop judging her and the loser boyfriend.

Yes, that's all true, but it's irrelevant because you can't have that conversation with her or with him. Any attempt to do so will be disrespectful, whether you are right or not, whether you love her or not, whether your motivations are good or not - and it will push her away. MelodyLane sums it up very well by saying "You will have more influence over her if you stop judging her and the loser boyfriend." He IS a loser! But don't tell her or him that.

KGaa12,

I'm sorry that you're going through this with your daughter. I can tell you that if I were in your shoes, I would be struggling as you are. However, the posters on this thread have given you sound advice. Your attempts to "talk some sense" into either your daughter or her boyfriend will only push her further away. My last comment isn't to suggest that you're treating your daughter disrespectfully in the manner you are trying to get her to understand the dangers, only that any method you choose will likely fall on deaf ears, or worse, push her further away.

It's not easy to sit by when you see her living with someone that you think is "bad news". It is my understanding that many people her age move between wanting more freedom and more security. Don't be surprised that if you let her make her own decisions (and mistakes), that she'll change her mind and return to you and your wife.

I have a good friend that I've known all my life. When she was 19-20, both she and her younger sister rebelled against their parents. Her parents were a little older than usual, in their early 60s. The parents were strict Catholics and wouldn't allow them to use alcohol or marijuana (or worse) in the house, wouldn't allow boyfriends to sleep over, etc. The sisters both decided to move out because "they were adults" and wanted to do what they wanted, and not abide their parents' rules. After less than a year on their own, and seeing some of their friends overdose, or go to jail, or whatever, they both decided to go back home to their parents. They had also struggled financially, underestimating how expensive it was to live on their own. They ended up with wonderful relationships with their parents.

I am holding fast to the advice here. I haven�t really spoken with her in weeks. Her and boyfriend moved to NYC where he allegedly has some family.

Neither of them are working so obviously I assume the worst; drug dealing?

I have heard through the rumor mill from some now distant associates of his that he was a source of drugs.

DD18 admitted she was no longer working at the job in DE, if she ever actually was?

We are doing what we can which is very little than speak with her on occasion?

DD18 told wife that she had almost saved money to pay off car; without a job?

I know I am supposed to remain neutral and supportive and I do , as I don�t bring up any of this to her.

As a Dad I just want to break through to her because I know she is on a bad path and maybe even in over her head.

Just be there for her when she falls. I know how hard this is, but she will come around!

DD18 visited wife and I at home today. We both tried to keep conversation relative to her now living with BF in NYC now.

There were some tears in her eyes when she spoke of her emotions for him BUT some parts where she doesn�t trust him.

DD18 says she wishes she could also have parts of her family but you tell she has fallen DEEP for this guy.

What worries me is my DD18 is simply a good person in her heart and wants to be loved. This guy is from such a different background and DD18 is already expressing some doubts and basically doesn�t let him out of her sight.

DD18 did bring up her car and wants to have it because she states if she �ever� felt like she wished to leave she would have an easy out.

She knows I require her to get her own insurance because I fear him driving it and he is not licensed.

I don�t know how to feel. I feel sorry for her because I can see her goodness and want she wants and can just tell this guy is that material.

But I kept my mouth shut and just told her how glad I was she came to see us and that�s i miss her and am concerned for her as I always will be

Well the situation has finally broke me to the core. Saw my doctor the other day because of massive acid reflux and pain in chest.

Onset came on kind of quickly and my appetite has tanked along with some other symptoms. I have fought reflux for years but this is bad and am hoping all works out and is not a more serious medical issue going on?

I have high anxiety and I think depression is setting in? Some days I don�t really even feel like getting out of bed?

With all this going on; my job has presented an offer to move back west to work where we would be closer to our families. It is tempting only because of all the crap we have been through.

Hoping physical health improves but I literally feel like I am falling apart from the inside out.

Kgaa, I'm so sorry. Did you talk to your doctor about antidepressants? I ask because you remind me of how I felt in 2012 just before I finally broke down and did that - it was a good decision.

Update:

DD18 returned home about a week ago to visit. The visit turned into her and boyfriend considering trying to find work in the area and staying here.

We gave her limited access to her car to look for work and go and see him at an apartment where he was staying.

Last night daughter became unreasonable and wanted him and her to stay at house.

We declined him staying because we have not even had the opportunity to meet and get to know him.

We told her the door was always open to her and that we would be willing to meet him and talk.

DD18 declined. DD18 was upset that we wouldn�t let him stay the night at our place.

The two of them are now saying they are going back to NYC where he has family and a place to stay.

I expressed my concerns to DD18 and said they should maybe date and build there lives?

My DD18 is not flexabale as his family in NYC will obviously allow things we won�t like sleeping in same bed together.

I would never allow an unmarried adult child to sleep together in my home. When my son brought his fianc� home, they slept in separate beds. That is disrespectful of her to even ask. Hell to the no.

Why would she ever imagine she could treat your home as a flop house?? I am really surprised she believed that was a good idea to ask you that.

DD18 asked to stay the night here again after a fight with boyfriend. She slept on the streets with him last night because we wouldn�t let the two of them stay here.

She�s tired and exhausted. Gave her a hug and a place to stay tonight. She�s showered and clean and getting some rest.

Hope for the day it comes to an end?

I misunderstood you. I thought they wanted to SLEEP TOGETHER at your home but they were only asking to stay there, but not necessarily together?

I hope I can make this as brief as possible but I wanted to update everyone on two separate aspects of my situation.

1. My DD18 returning and living at home now.

2. My job relocating me back near my hometown.


1. DD18 returned a couple weeks ago (most here know the back story from previous posts).

As advised here, we welcomed here back and did our best not to be critical of her and the decisions she previously made leaving the home unannounced to everyone. DD18 has been staying in our guest apartment (by her choice). Of course things are not the same, but most conversations are relatively peaceful.

We began to allow her to use the car in an effort to have her try and get back on her feet. She does go see her boyfriend and it is our understanding that he kind of goes place to place with old friends looking for a place to lay his head.

We know that DD18 has tried or actually had the boyfriend at our home when we were not present. This is not speculation, but my wife observed the two of them pull up in car together shortly after we left for a 2 day trip out of town. After returning home I also found partial cigar pieces on the patio and we don't smoke.

As of yesterday DD18 started job at old Sports Bar employer. DD18 has expressed that "as of now" her intentions are to try and save up enough money to secure her own apartment with boyfriend in the local area. DD18 told wife that she gave the boyfriend more or less an ultimatum that he needed to secure employment and start making progress or she would be making decisions on how she wanted to handle her future.

I guess my question is simply; Do we continue to allow her to use the car to tote this guy all over the place? DD18 has not made a payment in 3 months and has not put gas in the tank. DD18 woke up today and told me she was heading out to drive "someone" to school. (High School). I said "oh;ok. It is likely a friend of her boyfriend.

2. As many of you know we located here 5 years ago after wife's affair. There were additional reasons for the move to include job for wife (that included college tuition discount) and an opportunity for me to return to a state job I had left years ago.

My employer has now offered me somewhat of a promotion to return to the western part of PA. I would be tasked with basically developing and running a smaller version of the unit that I work in here. This will place us close to our hometown.

I have been evaluating how I feel about this, but we are pretty far down the road of accepting the position and the relocation. I have been to hometown several times over the past 5 years; and don't seem to be affected by "triggers" and the past. I know with a great deal of certainty that wife has had no contact with OM and understands (we both do) how to protect of marriage. Wife would not be working with OM, be living close to any of his family and nor would I be working where I would be exposed to him.

Our other DD22 still resides there as do all of both of our families.

DD18 has indicated at least at this time that she is going to try and remain here with her boyfriend "If all goes good" but would decide in the next month if she would consider moving back close to home?

Wife has indicated that she would like to be closer to family but asked how I felt about moving to our hometown area.

I have mixed feelings; but all that we have been through and learned I feel we have to be able to protect and understand how to live in our marriage and that should allow us to be wherever geographically we chose to be.

Like it or not our entire families reside in this area and we have to be able to function there as well. We both have returned several times over the years for family needs ect; and would continue to have to do this throughout our lives.

Wow so much to consider! Did she start college?

The biggest concern with your plan is the OM. Doesn't he live in that town? You have gone through hell for years to move away, why would you put your marriage back in that position?


The issue isn't her carting around the boyfriend [haven't we already covered this endlessly?] but that she doesn't have a job and is not paying her bills. If she is not going to school I would expect her to work and pay her bills.

Glad she is back home!

DD18 has began to work at her previous employer. Her stated intentions are to begin paying for car again and try and save up for a place for her and boyfriend to stay.

The issue will be; DD18 will devise her priorities as follows:

1. Save all monies for goal of staying in apartment with him. (He hasn�t ever secured job yet)

2. Put gas in car.

3. Make car payment or some part of it to me �with whatever may remain�.

I guess my stance; pay car or lose it if your not attending school.

In a perfect world I would prefer to not put my marriage back on that position. I have been letting this OM dictate every choice in my life for nearly 7 years!

I have an opportunity to now take the job I secured back to the western part of the state where my family and other daughter is.

My career does not superceed my marriage and my other family doesn�t superceed my wife; but when does it simply come down to she (my wife) needs to always choose me (our marriage) in life?

OM is just one man that is dictating all that I do in life.

Now, I remain being vigilant and intentional in my choices if going back near home.

1. Won�t be working anywhere near OM, know where he currently works.

2. Would be looking to purchase home in a separate town south of city where OM lives life.

3. Wife is looking for employment in an area where we would both agree on with the obvious notion that it would be no where in proximity of OM.

We both will continue to be transparent in all we do.

Yes, it is easier to remain here in the marriage category; but life involves more than this including other family members.

But I also know others have survived and recovered without ever relocating. By my own admission I did need to the peace of mind to move 5 years ago, and I believed my wife needed to see life away from there to clear the �fog� from this evil chapter of our lives.

All of the risks that were present 5 yrs ago are present today. You moved away so that your wife - and you - would not be in close proximity to the OM. Being in close proximity to the OM means that the risk of a resumption of the affair goes way up because her feelings will be triggered. When her feelings are triggered, she will be in a position to resume the affair. You seem to imagine that you are immune from this because it has been 5 years. The fog will come back once she is triggered.


I don't. But I do know many others who have resumed affairs because they didn't move.

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. He must certainly not work with his former lover and should probably live in some other city or state. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

So you will show him by risking your marriage again! Good move!

Will not argue that collectively the �risk� increases. Of course it would.

But it also may be a �dead� affair. I will never trust him and I would almost be certain OM has done nothing to protect himself or his wife from his desires to chase women.

We can never remain totally immune from our hometown where are entire family exists.

I have nothing to prove to OM.

Husbands and wife�s divorce every day and get remarried and continue to live in proximity to each other often share children. Isn�t this similar in nature. They are not jumping right back with there ex after many years of deep feelings and a Romantic relationship.

These are the same arguments you made 6 years ago. If you want to see my response to these very arguments, go back to your old threads. #GroundHogDay

Don't worry, I am sure you are immune.. If it happens again, no big deal, right?

In the overall picture you are right. But not all situations allow families to move away and keep a healthy mind.

Dr. H has also indicated that you have to be happy wear you are living life. You can even become resentful to your spouse when he/she is (was) the cause that you pulled everyone away from what you know.

I will be more apprehensive living there but many things need to be weighed out.

I am sure that my wife would deny that she would be triggered if/when seeing other male.

Til this day she denies she had any real love for him; admitted to being �in love� with the attention she was getting mainly the conversation. Wife feels she gets what she needs from me and our relationship has changed.

This is very tough for me to decide because I am deciding between my entire life or my marriage that �may� do just fine there.

Please don't twist Dr Harley's words to justify what you know he would advise against. Just admit you are going against his advice, which is fine. You don't have to twist his words when we all know he would not approve.

So basically I am screwed. House is sold here; we intended on selling anyway because it was way to much house; my job is under impression I will being relocating to western part of state.

I have been resentful since moving here years ago which has hampered my ability to view my wife in a positive light.

Yes ideally; one wants to check all boxes off when this strikes but that is simply not reality.

I guess I don�t completely understand? I had a one night stand affair when we first married. If I returned home and saw this women in passing it would generate absolutely nothing for me to desire something with her.

I agree is it always riskier; of course; but is it probable, not likely.

I don�t feel these are black and white answers; just a very difficult decisions with many moving parts. My wife and I surly can�t dissappear on a island and isolate ourselves from the rest of the world or our family.

This totally sucks; choosing again between where to live, extended family and wife.

Wife is enthusiastic about it. Wife has been traveling back and forth due to sick brother. My job here has required that I travel 50% of the time across the state.

I have become resentful to wife due to missing important family events (such as grandfather passing) and overall it just didn�t work out here.

My job now is asking that I return to the western part of the state. I initially tried to go to north Pittsburgh to remain away from hometown, but office location is in transition so they denied it.

Intentionally found house 30 minutes south of city where OM lives. Wife is intentionally going to work even further south of our home just to provide comfort to me due to situation.

We plan on putting all MB practices into play just as if we never left.

This is all we can do. When parents begin aging and wife would have to go there anyway; their is a risk.

We can never change where our hometown is. I understand the best advice is get away. I respect that but not everyone can disappear into the abiss forever.

As I write this I am experiencing one of the toughest most draining decisions.

Against what I feel inside, I have elected to remain where we are located because ultimately I care most about my wife and my immediate family.

I wanted so badly to take advantage of this job opportunity and be there for my parents back where I was most familiar.

With all the challenges to include my DD18 reminding here and continuing to be in relationship with a boy that is tearing my wife and up, I have searched deep and looked beyond all of this; taken the advice here and remain committed to my marriage.

I told myself long ago that the OM will never again experience the privilege he should have never had to even see my wife in passing as long as I walk this earth.

I�m trusting in God that he is pointing me in the right direction and I will someday find true joy.

It is a difficult time. We have cancelled the purchase of a home; likely will lose $1,000, but I care more deeply about the people in my life.

Thanks again.

KGaa, I am sorry you are experiencing such turmoil but I know you made the right decision. You have enough problems in your life without adding a new one to the mix.

I want to also give you hope about your daughter. I predict she will come out of this as she matures and start making good decisions about her life. Don't let it tear you up. [i know easier said than done!] I can barely remember the crap my son pulled when he was that age and today he has a successful career, a nice home, a wonderful wife and is expecting his first child in January. He is a wonderful man. But he went a little crazy in his late teens but starting maturing in his early 20's. She will grow out of this! Just be there to love her and support her.

I think the hardest part is that I�m a person that just wants to please everyone around. I want my entire family to be together and I always have felt and obligation to take care of my parents as they age.

I also have a daughter that remains in our hometown she�s finishing her last year of college. It is so hard stay in an area when I can so easily go back but I guess I have to keep focus on why and what brought me here in the first place .

I have to keep telling myself that my daughter could choose to be with somebody like this no matter where we chose to live but it�s very easy to blame the place on her decisions. There are times that I felt like she would�ve never met this man had I not had to move here. You just become very resentful towards things.

You can still do that, but you need to find a way to do it that doesn't pose a risk to your marriage. I took care of my dad in his last years living on the other side of the state.


She would have still had bad judgement regardless of where you chose to live. She will outgrow it, though. You just watch!

Well we think we found an apartment in the area since our house here will be sold as of 10/12.

We lost $1k deposit in-house in hometown. Fell kind of ill over passing up this opportunity, but I am working hard to see the brighter side.

Wife had confrontation with DD18 yesterday after daughter had the car and told wife she had to work at noon.

Wife drove over to apartment where DD18 was �hanging out� with POS boyfriend for majority of day with car sitting outside. Wife got keys told DD18 to get her stuff out and wife brought car home.

Boyfriend showed his face and wife had some choice words for him. DD18 has not contacted us since this incident.

Wife is a wits end with this kid and what his influence is doing to daughter.

We will just keep pushing on. DD18 hasn�t made a car payment in months, but said she will have one for next month?

She can make her own choices but not at our expense any longer.

We were allowing DD18 to use car only for work purposes since she hasn�t paid in months; not to tote POS and his buddies around.

As if we don�t have enough going on. Hoping for some insight here.

Wife and I have been fighting the last couple days to the point it has become toxic. Of course DD18 is still conducting her life in the same manner with POS boyfriend which has both of us at odds.

To make things worse DD15 has now come to us expressing her interest in an 18 year old senior boy at her school.

DD15 did innocently make an effort to reach out to this kid unknown to her at the time that he was 18. DD15 wants to keep speaking with him and would like to maybe meet for a bit to eat somewhere as �friends�.

DD15 has come to wife and I about this request.

Wife feels like DD15 should be able to go and meet with him only as friends and only after us meeting him here at home first. Wife feels like if we play hardball we risk DD15 rebelling like DD18 did and look where that got us.

My position has been to help DD15 understand and to support her in going through these difficult high school years but at the same time to draw a line in the sand due to this boys age.
I had a peaceful conversation with DD15 yesterday trying to get her to see the logical side of things and to explain how this boy is st a different stage of life than her.

Wife and I tried to discuss but it ended in a huge argument with totally different views.

I wanted to come to an enthusiastic agreement in the child conflict situations but what is there to negotiate when wife is ok with DD15 meeting as �friends� and I stand my position as boy is to old, plan and simple.

Wife said she would emphasize to DD15 that this would only be a friendship and nothing more. Wife said she would also explain this to 18 boy when meeting him.

Boy is too old, plain and simple...

Only it is not plain and simple. It is just your perspective. And your W has her own perspective.

Despite what you say, it does not seem at all like you were interested in POJA here. It seems like you were interested in persuading your W to see it your way.

Did you have an agreement with DD15 as to when she was allowed to start dating?

You MUST stop fighting and arguing over your different views. Having different views is no reason to fight. Fighting will destroy your marriage.

I've been reading your older threads, and I've been reminded that you enrolled in the online programme. Is that correct? If so, you have direct access to Dr Harley, via the private online forum. You should post to him about the problems you face with both daughters. I know that your wife did not use the programme with enthusiasm, but this should not stop you from writing to Dr Harley. You should do that as a matter of urgency.

You and your wife need to negotiate this decision but it sure shows a lack of caring to allow a 15 yr old CHILD to be around an 18 yr old man. Seriously.

STOP FIGHTING!!