I've had a long, tough road. First visited this site more than 10 years ago during discovery of 1st affair. Read all the MB stuff, but stumbled upon something yesterday that I need an honest opinion on. I think I may have been married to a narcissist for the past 25 years. Or at least someone with severe traits, not the full-blown disorder.
I just found out about a 2nd affair this winter - for all I know it's still on-going. Course now he's begging because this time I'm standing my ground -refusing to acknowlege that I caused his behavior - my kids are almost grown. I admit that I did withdraw somewhat recently because I could see what his repeated behavior was beginning to do to my psyche. There is only so much giving a person can do without reciprocation.
It's always been all about him. Searching for someone to constantly feed him, but doesn't give much of anything in return. I always felt I wasn't good enough - tried giving him his "space", letting him buy all his toys, telling him how much he meant to me. Doesn't take responsibility for his actions - has had 5 jobs in the last 10 years - mostly because he wasn't satisfied or something was wrong with the people he worked for. A couple he got fired from.
Just curious if anyone else out there has dealt with this personality type and if they could describe the characteristics and how they dealt with it. We are both in IC - H has said that we have relationship issues, and I agree I've been anxious - on some meds and seeing my own IC. But this time I firmly believe that has his own issues he has to deal with. (as does my family and the few friends we have left as a couple - According to H, there's something wrong with most of them because they are judging him) He says he agrees and will be trying to get at the core. If it is narcissistic personality, can it be "cured"? Web sites don't think so.
Thanks
T2D
BTW - I've been posting on recovery under a different name, but H reads them and is challenging me on all of it. So I changed names and am posting here.
Hi Time,
My mother was a narcissist, with a borderline personality disorder.
Everything is all about them- you are correct. When I got married- all about her. When my first child was born- all about her- when my best friend died- all about her.
She never took responsibility- everything was always everyone else's fault. She didn't have a problem, in fact, she was an "angel" and wasnt going to be judged when she died because she'd suffered so much on earth or so she thought.
I'd be careful about coming out and saying he was a narcassist without a dr's opinion. Have you sought therapy?
We are in seperate counseling now, but his IC wants to see us together. I have seen his counselor by myself and he says he can't get inside - H won't let him in. But when H sees him, H tells me that IC says there is something wrong with our relationship - or else he wouldn't have strayed.
Well, I'm holding him accountable. I refuse to engage when he tries to twist this around. When I was home with three small children (3 boys in 5 years) - he used to travel at work. Not call every night, then when he was home, as soon as a buddy called he was gone - fishing, etc. I felt totally alone, but got involved. As soon as my volunteering left him home w/the kids once in a while, he'd get mad and say I was ignoring him.
We have a session tomorrow - do you think it's wise for me to ask to speak to MC alone first and let him know of my suspicions? I'm not sure it's full blown disorder, but I definitely identify with five of the 9 characteristics.
thanks for the insight.
I think it's within your rights to ask to speak to the MC alone.
By the way, I think it's typical behavior of the Nar. to say a therapist says something to point the blame on someone else.
He did that to reinforce the "It's not me, it's you" theory. Don't buy into it.
An affair was his choice- sure he could have had unmet needs but he chose to step out of the marriage instead of fix them.
I have been married to a narcissist for 15 years. You give your all to them, they take without any gratitude, They will belittle you, they are selfish, they will blame you for their problems, they cannot hold a job, (My H either got fired from a job or quit because he could not get along with his co-workers), they can be very suspicious of your actions, accusing you of cheating even though they are the ones having the A, sometimes they can be so loving, the next minute they can be so cruel, they make promises that they don't keep.... It almost drove me out of my mind.
I am glad you are standing your ground and not allowing him to make you think you are the cause for his behavior, because you are not, and unfortunately, it's hard for a narccissist to change his/her ways.
My x changed jobs constantly, always left on bad terms. Would get new friends constantly, then have a falling out. (Her entire family is this way).
How did I handle it... I supported her in her changing jobs, never questioned it. Listened to her problems with her work and friends. Let her cry on my shoulder.
How should I have handled it? Should have sat her down and had some frank conversations about her unhappiness. Should have had the discussion long before she became obsessed with the 3rd guy.
My H did have a great job he held for 13 years, but I think they started to see things they didn't like and kept giving him impossible sales goals and slowly pushing him out. Of course they were all a bunch of jerks because they did him wrong. There are a few friends from that old job that he still has contact with - he prides himself on maintaining contact with many different people and they seem to like him. But lately when I've snooped through email, I notice this pattern - it's all about him! This last affair he actually confided his troubles to a friend of his going through extensive chemotherapy for aggressive cancer - needed this guys comfort! Another email sent barely six weeks after to his sister said that "my anger has seemed to finally subside - the drugs are counseling are finally helping her". Poor baby - had to put up with me being upset, angry and hurt!
Anyway, thanks for all your words and wisdom. Shortly after D-day 2 (OW) in Jan 06, I wrote this on another post. I keep going back and forth between my contribution and his issues, but I think I'm back to this:
"This is my personal opinion on the whole subject. Affairs happen because of the shortcomings of the betrayer. His needs her needs, give and take, policy of joint agreement, policy of radical honesty - they're all great books to read to learn how to communicate, respect, and love one another. They help forge a bond where you can see your partner more clearly. But I read a great review while searching amazon.com for books (again!) on the subject, words that I could finally identify with. One review(for a book written by Brown)had this to say:
'The notion that infidelity always reveals somethng about the marriage continues to impose on couples demands that no one in any other realm of health care would countenance. That an affair has occurred obviously means that the marriage was vulnerable. That the pattern of marital interaction allowed it to happen. That does not mean that the affair is a function of that pattern.....Sometimes we choose dishonorable ways of feeling better because of our own shortcomings. This is not a shortcoming of your marriage. Nothing ever makes an individual trustworthy except his or her own good character. An affair need not show anything wrong with the marriage, but it ALWAYS shows unreliable character - a person who does not keep promises and engages in deceit is, by definition, unreliable. Yes, you might be able to decrease the partner's unhappiness; but THEN YOU WILL HAVE TAKEN THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR KEEPING THE PARTNER HAPPY ENOUGH THAT HE OR SHE WON'T DO WHAT THEY SHOULD NEVER BE WILLING TO DO ANYWAY'
Well, I am tired of it. I really don't think I can go through the rest of my life wondering if I can make this self-absorbed man so happy that he won't stray. It is not my responsibility to baby sit.
-T2D
You are right, it is not your responsibility to baby sit adults. PEOPLE WILL ONLY DO WHAT YOU ALLOW THEM TO DO TO YOU. It took me a long time for that statement to sink in, and sometimes I feel really stupid for allowing my H to treat me like crap for so many years.
Had MC together yesterday - H has been seeing him alone for the past 6 weeks. I asked to speak to him privately and aired my concerns about his narcissism. IC said I was very perceptive, he sees it to.
I asked him to please work w/him individually to see if this is "core" behavior or if it's a trait that can be worked with. That's where we are now.
I told IC that if it is severe - I gotta run and run quick! I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the feedback
Pretty sure my H is a narcissist... to make a long story short, I became even more convinced after 2 IC's that knew both of us said so, my friend (with a PhD in Psych) told me quite a bit about the PD, and I read some recommended books. The one that was most insightful for me was "Why Is It Always About You?" I recommend it.
We have been separated for over a year, and he continues to make everything about him. Sigh!
I think SIL is a narcissist. She's always been a drama queen, but has taken control of the family (WH, MIL, uncles, etc) ever since FIL died. Even MC said that she sounded like one and suggested that WH hang up on SIL's abusive phone calls based on what WH said about SIL in MC. I think WH was really trying to work things out for a few months until he began talking frequently to SIL. In the past:
*Every time things were going well something would happen to poor SIL so that the entire family had to rally around.
*Since FIL was a sports figure, thought entire family s/b treated as celebrities.
*Her 5 boys have been in the hospital so many times that child welfare has checked her out.
*She can't keep a job. There is always something wrong with the people where she works. (teacher's aide, going to school to be a teacher, restaurant manager, nursing school, nursing teacher, real estate...)
*Before his death, FIL opened a restaurant that SIL managed (into the ground). When it failed she was upset that she might loose her 3 cars (all paid for and in FIL's name) because they were worried FIL might have to file bankruptcy. (What about financial loss to FIL?)
*The rock by FIL's side in hospital since she was a nurse, refused autopsy, and immediately started yelling lawsuit when FIL died.
*SIL is the only one that will take care of poor MIL who you would think has been near death for years. (like she would allow anyone else to get near MIL.)
*OW is SIL's best friend, "just like a sister to her".
*When WH left, SIL called and told me I should get even by having A also. (Then I couldn't file based on A.)
*Calls and tells me in "sweet" condesending voice that I need mental help because I care about SS's who I have treated as my own for 10 years.
Of course WH is very good at lying and manipulating people. I'm not sure if SIL is controling him or he is conning SIL into doing his dirty work.
I found the other book I read on this topic - not directly about Narcissism, but in the same vein. It's called, "Emotional Vampires". I recommend it!
Reading books on this topic is a good way to get an outside opinion. It's hard to be around people with PD's and still keep your own head screwed on straight. It takes lots of energy to try and figure out "what's wrong with this picture" - over and over again, especially when they can twist things to sound logical. And to make it look like it's all your fault.
If you are one of those people who tends to accept responsibility for your mistakes, you are a sitting target for a narcissist. All he/she has to do is imply something is your fault and you will try to fix it. Trouble is, without realizing it, you end up trying to fix the other person (thinking you are accepting responsiblity for your own errors). So, not only do you not fix it, but you generate resentment in the process. As I continue to learn.... (been there, done that... takes one to know one...)
All he/she has to do is imply something is your fault and you will try to fix it. Trouble is, without realizing it, you end up trying to fix the other person (thinking you are accepting responsiblity for your own errors). So, not only do you not fix it, but you generate resentment in the process.
Your screen name is so appropriate right now! I can't count the time that WH or his family implied that something was my fault (when I knew otherwise) and I tried to fix it, later to be accused of being controling.
Quote - Sometimes we choose dishonorable ways of feeling better because of our own shortcomings. This is not a shortcoming of your marriage. Nothing ever makes an individual trustworthy except his or her own good character. An affair need not show anything wrong with the marriage, but it ALWAYS shows unreliable character - a person who does not keep promises and engages in deceit is, by definition, unreliable. Yes, you might be able to decrease the partner's unhappiness; but THEN YOU WILL HAVE TAKEN THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR KEEPING THE PARTNER HAPPY ENOUGH THAT HE OR SHE WON'T DO WHAT THEY SHOULD NEVER BE WILLING TO DO ANYWAY'
Reading this brought tears today - the jerk borline narcissist tries their darnedest to blame the BS..and yes, we people with "fixer" issues (me) do everything we can to be perfect, to be loved and it's not enough - and we don't understand why...Then we get smart, we read, we come here and we learn the above - IT'S NOT ABOUT US......
And we work to heal the pain of our broken hearts..Luckily, many of us BS will heal but the WS who seeks no help will continue on this path of destruction over and over again....
HUGS
ITHURTS - Sorry to make you cry - but I have always been the "fixer" too. I always thought it was something about me that was unlovable. I still have that sick feeling, because I don't think he's ever paid the attention to me that I think he has paid to these other women. Of course, I have never been forbidden fruit, either.
This infidelity thing happened at least twice - once 10 years ago. He told me, he said, because he wanted it to end, but it was like an addiction and couldn't get over it. Said NC, but found out that there were "lunches" for at least another year. Well, after this other D-day, my best friend told me that D-day #1 was disclosed because her husband said if H didn't, then they would march into my house and let me know what was going on. Now, that's a good friend! I'd do the same - absolutely!
Since D-day #2, I was told about a groping and kissing incident at a bar a few years ago. H is furious at the friend who told me - doesn't deny it, but says friend has no right to spread rumors! Well, I'm glad I have friends who realize that I have a right to the truth.
So, this time I'm not backing down. I sent him the article quoted above and said that I am in no way taking ANY responsibility for his choice to be unfaithful. As a matter of fact, I've repeatedly told him after A #1 that if he ever wanted out of this marriage, just go ahead and screw around again, because I can't take it another time. He says it "just happened".
Well, since I discovered, he says he's truly sorry, says he loves me. Says he feels so lonely, wants to know if I'm staying or leaving. Says if I decide to leave, he has to go to plan B -I think there is still contact. Anyway, this is not up to me. He says he really wants to find out why he behaves this way - if he is really willing to do the work and the IC thinks it can change, I might give it a shot. But right now, I'm not very hopeful.
Thanks for all your posts - I appreciate it very much.
Had to interject...been checking on this title for awhile...
"Nothing ever makes an individual trustworthy except his or her own good character. An affair need not show anything wrong with the marriage, but it ALWAYS shows unreliable character - a person who does not keep promises and engages in deceit is, by definition, unreliable."
I disagree. I was trustworthy because I kept my promises, no matter what it cost me...which is the road to entitlement (fueled by resentment and a lack of respect) and had As...upfront, in your face...Man, was I reliable! It wasn't about my character but my belief system. I was an abuser, like you two...fixing was my abusive pattern. So I had to step in and say that your "always unreliable character" doesn't really pertain in all situations.
I'm recovered now...no long abuser nor cheater be; respectful, finally, in all ways..not just the ones I used to try to earn love. I had no idea what a DJ fixing/pleasing really was.
We are all as reliable as air when it comes to being human.
LA
This excerpt came from an book written by Dr. Sam Vankin who states that HE is a narcissist. The title of the book is "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited" This is his advice on dealing with a narcissistic H or W.
Never disagree with the narcissist or contradict him; Never offer him any intimacy; Look awed by whatever attribute matters to him (for instance: by his professional achievements or by his good looks, or by his success with women and so on); Never remind him of life out there and if you do, connect it somehow to his sense of grandiosity; Do not make any comment, which might directly or indirectly impinge on his self-image, omnipotence, judgment, omniscience, skills, capabilities, professional record, or even omnipresence.
Listen attentively to everything the narcissist says and agree with it all. Don't believe a word of it but let it slide as if everything is just fine, business as usual. Personally offer something absolutely unique to the narcissist which they cannot obtain anywhere else. Also be prepared to line up future sources of primary Narcissistic Supply for your narcissist because you will not be IT for very long, if at all. If you take over the procuring function for the narcissist, they become that much more dependent on you. Be endlessly patient and go way out of your way to be accommodating, thus keeping the narcissistic supply flowing liberally, and keeping the peace. Be endlessly giving. This one may not be attractive to you, but it is a take it or leave it proposition. Be absolutely emotionally and financially independent of the narcissist.
Take what you need: the excitement and engulfment and refuse to get upset or hurt when the narcissist does or says something dumb, rude, or insensitive. Yelling back works really well but should be reserved for special occasions when you fear your narcissist may be on the verge of leaving you; the silent treatment is better as an ordinary response, but it must be carried out without any emotional content, more with the air of boredom and "I'll talk to you later, when I am good and ready, and when you are behaving in a more reasonable fashion". Treat your narcissist as you would a child.
Don't for one moment delude yourself that you can fix the narcissist - it simply will not happen. If there is any fixing that can be done, it is to help your narcissist become aware of their condition, with no negative implications or accusations in the process at all. It is like living with a physically handicapped person and being able to discuss, calmly, unemotionally, what the limitations and benefits of the handicap are and how the two of you can work with these factors, rather than trying to change them.
Finally, and most important of all: Know Yourself. What are you getting from the relationship? Are you actually a masochist? A codependent? Why is this relationship attractive and interesting? Define for yourself what good and beneficial things you believe you are receiving in this relationship. Define the things that you find harmful to you. Develop strategies to minimize the harm to yourself. Don't expect that you will cognitively be able to reason with the narcissist to change who they are. You may have some limited success in getting your narcissist to tone down on the really harmful behaviors that affect you - but this can only be accomplished in a very trusting, frank and open relationship.
Thank you! I have been on his web page and I'm a bit confused because I really don't think my H has full-blown NPD. He is not without empathy, but at times I feel like I do have to treat him as a child.
He hates it when I push back, argue, etc. But I think it's because he hates confrontation. But when I do the silent treatment, or handle him "without any emotional content, more with boredom" - he hates that too, says I'm not communicating with him.
I think I am somewhat of a codependent - I have been needy in most of my relationships with men prior to M. But what did I know, I was only 22 when I met H. It was love at first sight for me!
I haven't yet told him about my suspicions of narcissism, but I did discuss it w/ his IC. He will see him alone for a while, we'll see.
But I can't continue in this relationship if I have to treat him as the above states. I need more from a partner than that. I've been trying to get it for years. I can't believe it took me this long to recognize it. But, then, I did have three boys who get along great with their Dad. I was focused on doing all I could to keep the family together. Now that they're almost grown, I don't have the investment need that I used to.
Thanks for all the feedback. Things are becoming a little clearer for me, I think!
" Of course they were all a bunch of jerks because they did him wrong."
" he prides himself on maintaining contact with many different people and they seem to like him."
" it's all about him! "
-T2D
Inflated sense of self worth? Check
Maintains Narcissistic Supply? Check
World Revolves around him? Check
He's a Narcisisst!
Call me what you want. I just left my wife (23 years married) 3 weeks ago. I have 2 kids at home(10,15). I coudn't stand the pain in my head living in RANCOR. I nearly blew a gasket when she said. "I'm happy". I quit my job last september when it was obvious my affair was showing light. I made the decision ...a concsious decision to spend a weekend with a colleague at work. Why? Because we had lived in withdrawal for for so many years...I thought it was normal. And each time I asked my lovely wife to be home on Sunday, she was off spending $1,000.00 of dollars with the kids at volleyball tournaments. Our monthly expenses have grown to $14,000 a month. I have refinanced the credit card debt 3 times and the home we bought for $400k in 1990 is now mortgaged to $720k. The reason I changed jobs so much in the last 5 years (5jobs) was to find one that paid more to pay the debt. Last year I found her with another 70k in credit cards. My last job paid 22k per month and I hated it! My employees hated me and I hated myself because of the way I had to manage to get results. Yes! we broke every record in the books over the last 18 months but the real record was not having an affair for 23 years under these conditions. I AM the true WORKING STIFF. I worked 60-65 hours a week trying to make ends meet and now I'm the "bad daddy" who left my wife. I wont ever trade my life again for a woman who thinks she deserves what ever she wants under the disguise of "love for the kids". Thank God I found this site and understand the 3 states of marriage. I told her tonight I choose "joy and passion" in my life. Do I look forward to divorce..NO! Am I happy by MYSELF...Yes! Do I have a lot to learn and can I make the changes?...YES! I took the first step by walking out. Narcissism? No , just no tools to pick up and apply to my trade. I told the "honey" we are done before I found this site. Today I want to work on my marriage and successfully accomplish what I know is true and morally right. When i asked my wife if she looked at MB...she said she didn't have time. Of course..Another tournament in Atlanta last weekend and another in LA this week. Who's got time for a marriage? Who's the selfish one? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Who's protecting the kids from spending time with their father? Who's life is about to be shattered...all of ours! Who spent 38K in Dec.? It wasn't the Narcissist.
Welcome, AGP4L...
I see you triggered to the thread title, also. Your story is important. Would you consider cutting and pasting it to your own thread, still under Infidelity, GQ II?
Did you know you're not nuts? That Financial Security (FS) is very similar, painfully similar, to As in the betrayal department?
We'd like to help you in your goal. I look forward to posting on your own thread.
LA