I have recently filed for a D from my WH. We separated almost a year ago. I decided to file due to him not 'coming around' and the fact that during this time he found a GF, that he decided he was in 'love' with, and he would do anything for. She dumped him, and he started to be Mr. Nice a lot of times.

He has now started to resume his 'single lifestyle'. Which in a nutshell annoys me- he goes out at every opportunity, does not spend a lot of time with the kids, etc.

He has not been served yet. It will be next week. But we have both talked about it.

What I do not know how to do is be miss nice all of the time. Not that I should. But WH takes it for granted.
Whenever he wants to see the kids on a whim, I was ok with it.

But I think that it has given him the message that he can come and go as he wants, and that he will always be able to do what he wants.

For ex. today is July 3rd. I had discussed with him last week what was going to go on this week for the fourth of July. He said that he wanted to spend time with the kids on the third, since I had a family thing, and other things I could do with them on the 4th.

Long story short: He did not spend time with the kids tonight. He had the 'opportunity' to see the fireworks in Chicago, and he 'canceled' his plans with our girls. He then tried to say that he was going to spend time with them tomorrow. I have a full days worth of activities lined up. I told him no, this is not what we agreed on.

But I WANT him to see the kids. I just do not want him to cancel plans, and then try to intrude on my plans. I want the kids to have a R with him. But I do not know HOW to do it, when he is so resistant to 'plans', just in case they may interfere with his plans.

I get frustrated with this. Sometimes I wish that I could wave a magic wand and be done with him already. But I can't.

I struggle with this. I want to be accommodating, but I do not want to be a pushover either. Unfortunately, I have been a bit of a pushover.

How can I be fair with him, with the kids, when I feel that I am being taken advantage of, and that he just 'assumes' that I will be nice all of the time? I do not want to be mean, I do not want to be the person that keeps him 'away' from them to teach him a lesson. But do I need to do that in order for him to realize that he has to start respecting the plans that we make regarding the kids?

Sadmo,



If you really believe that statement, you are accepting the role your WH wants you to accept. He is successfully manipulating everyone, especially you.

Read Noodles quote in my sig line.

Live it. Life is so much easier when you believe it.

He is taking advantage of you. You don't have to be mean, a simple "we already have plans for the 4th, sorry" is enough. He'll get the picture after a few of those.

Sadmo,
If you can get someone to do the right thing who never got it to begin with, you will be the first and the last. That's what our court system is designed to do. If your WH had family commitment anywhere on his radar screen, he would want to be with your DDs instead of chasing skirts or anything else self-centered. So... set your boundaries and hold his feet to the fire. Some people need to understand that it's not all about them. Oh... and someday your DDs will understand.
Jungian

you set up a visitation schedule through the courts and you stick to it. no flexibility. if he chooses not to have them according to the schedule, his loss. do not give an inch, they take a freakin a mile.

have a schedule set in stone and that is that. he follows it or he doesn't. your girls will know when they get older who the stable parent was. mine are 10 and from the converstaions they have initiated with me, i know they know i am the one who has always been there for them. they will know.

mlhb

By divorcing we set up children to live not as 'a whole'.
Next damage a divorced parent does is not enabling the children to bond with the other parent.

Sadmo, you have to be fair to - your children !
(And to WH? You mean XWS? - As to any other human being, according to your own moral/ethics/upbringing/nature.
And with a respect for (IF) being a good father to your children.)

I left my XH when our son was 2.
For the next 5-6 months, X was taking him anytime he wanted, I had to cancel my plans many times, I used to even call him whenever he didn’t see our son for longer than 2-3 days, and say that our son is missing him and why wouldn’t he take him for a couple of hours…
So, yes, he was taking advantage of me, I knew that, I allowed it, many times at my expense, many times very painful, but I did it.
Why?
Because I wanted my son to bond with his dad, I wanted them to build a solid dad-son relationship, for my own son’s sake.
It was really hard (at that time I even hated my X, I was in a such pain, devastated…) but I did that for my son. I owed him that. To have his father in his life.

Later on we put all on the papers, yet I was very flexible whenever my X switched weekends, afternoons (and at that time it was very often), again at my expense, my irritations, my ruined plans…

And you know what? I did it!
I can say now that my son and his dad have a quite good relationship.
I see my son happy – all I went through was worth it.
One of things that I-mother am proud of myself now.

Now, when the 'visitation schedule' is established, and all became a routine (X change it very rarely, when he really needs it), I go back to what mlhb very well said.
I did my part, I allowed them to build that R, and now we respect the schedule, for I need my time with my son too, and my plans and my life undisturbed too.

Sadmo, I have an ex who is adverse to plans and planning. He likes to go with the flow. This used to involve a lot of switching around, refusal to commit, etc. While I’m still flexible, we’ve worked it out. It really got better when I started saying “No, I’ve got plans.” Once he suffered the effects of not giving me adequate notice, he started to plan in advance more. And vice versa. I’ve had to learn to share the possible plans the girls and I have. That’s very uncomfortable for me.

If you want to be fair, you could say, “No, we have plans already for that day, but since I’m such a saint, would you like to have them for dinner on Friday night?” Already, maybe leave out the “saint” part.

Another approach to use is to confirm up front. “So, you plan to take the children on Tuesday. Great. I’ve been invited to a cocktail party. I’ll go to that.” Then, you go do your grown up activity and you’ve essentially put him on notice you’ll be unavailable should he decide to do something without the children. That will be increasingly important after you divorce and start to reforge your adult social life.

My XH is like this too. I'm wanting to reconcile with him - he's not there *yet* (he may never be... but that's another post).

In the past, I've had the same feeling - his relationship with his kids and the needs of the kids come first (kids come first, he comes second) and I've done a lot of tap-dancing to change plans when he springs on me at the last minute that he wants them or whatnot.

I did veto his "plans" to take them out west to see his GF this summer (long story - GF lived with him but left in April - that R is dying a slow death)... my kids didn't want to see GF again and a 4000+mile road trip with a man who may be soon in withdrawal didn't sound like a good idea to me.... but I digress.

We're divorced and we have a prescribed visitation schedule - however neither of us has ever "enforced". It was a safeguard for XH in the event that things turned ugly between us - I've never restricted his access to the kids - he's entitled to more time than he actually takes, but I'm liberal and I don't stick to a schedule - if he wants them 2 weekends in a row, that's fine. He's entitled to several weeks in the summer but doesn't take them, but if he wants the kids to stay for several days in a row - no problem.

I have even canceled or altered plans to accommodate because I felt that it was important to stay connected to his kids.

HOWEVER... the last-minute accommodation thing gets old after a while, particularly as you move on with your own life and you want to plan things.

I was afraid that XH would decide at the last second that he wanted the kids yesterday, the 4th... so with the advice of people here, I went ahead and made my plans, and if XH had decided at the last minute he wanted them, I was prepared to tell him, "Sorry - we have plans, but how about Thursday night/Friday night or whatever..."

Fortunately for me, he didn't ask, so I didn't have to turn him down.

I actually just emailed him something that came through on my business email about a chance for an activity that fits one of his hobbies - and he replied saying he's interested in doing that with the kids - so I'm doing my best to help foster good times together with the kids when opportunities arise.

I've not *had* to say no to him *yet* (vacation notwithstanding)... but when the time comes, if he can't plan ahead and I've got plans with the kids - he'll find out that I won't cancel or change my plans again.

JinGA

OK.... I have a bit to say here.

My XH didn't take his allotted extended time with our kids either. Then he filed a motion to change custody to every other week in an effort to avoid paying child support. This is after less than a year since the agreement. I say "no way".

As the kids get older, they will not appreciate last minute changes and up-in-the-air plans. Kids thrive on continuity. They need some kind of schedule so they can relax. Breaking plans at the last minute is painful for the kids. By setting, and keeping, a set visitation schedule,the kids will do much better and you XH will get the idea.

Good luck
Loni

Now that you have filed, you will negotiate a parenting schedule and many other aspects of a divorce.

A parenting schedule is as fair as it gets. Stick to it. Be prepared to be 'somewhat' flexible. It's best to keep it as structured as possible. The kids will tend to adjust better if they know where they are going to be laying their heads down to bed each night.

Allowing him to take the kids on a whim, whenever it's convenient for him or if he has nothing better to do, will do nothing but perpetuate the grief you are already experiencing.

A parenting schedule provides structure for both you and your children.

"Fair" is subjective. Is he a parent or a visitor?

I completely agree with Ba.... Structure is good for everyone involved.

Loni

Thanks everyone for your advice, and thoughts on it.

I agree that I should just turn him down if he changes the plans, and I have plans scheduled.

The thing is, I have been trying to have things scheduled, planned out, as much for them, as for me. I do not like the up in the air changes.

I actually had the opportunity to talk to WH today about the whole thing. I told him that I did not want him to be the dad that cannot be relied on by the kids. That plans with them were not firm.

He sat there a while. Then he said, "well, you did do something with them, so it was not like they were suffering."

I just sadly looked at him, and I said, "You know that they thought that they were going to do something with you. It is not nice for them to not be able to rely on their dad being there, when he decides at the last minute to make grown up plans."

He said that he would 'try' to do better in the future.

I am not holding my breath.

But the thing is, I want to be flexible, but sometimes it is just not convenient for me to be so flexible. And if I were to tell him that I was going out with friends, he is less likely to help out. If he is not "needed" he is there, if I have plans, they can be canceled.

As of late, it has not been too bad. But I just do not know how I keep a good R with him and the kids, without guilting him or forcing him to do it. Sometimes he is more inclined to do things with them, but as soon as his social life picks up, he tends to drop the ball a bit. And it makes me feel bad.

And what makes me feel even worse (even though it is not my fault) is that the girls do not even ask about him that much, or have countdowns until they see him, or look forward to him calling. And it hurts ME. I wanted them to be close. And I know that as time goes on the girls will know that I was the stable one, the one that put them first. But I do not want him to miss out, nor them miss out.

Thanks again everyone, I got a lot of good advice.

And Noodles comment "never shelter anyone from the realities of their decisions" is great. How true. It really makes it all come to 'life' when someone is not excusing, or tolerating bad behavior.

I hope everyone had a good fourth of July, me and my girls did!

If you have plans, stick with them. If you don't, be flexible.

It is ok to say "NO".

I am six months into our 50/50 agreement and my STBX has a new BF and basically babysits the kids the weeks she has them and then shacks up with him the week she doesn't have the kids, this has been going on for the past month.

She also has done several other things involving the kids, our DD12 has been exposed to her relationhships she is treated as STBX BF.

The her OM3 that broke up with her in January, asked for a blackberry back that he gave her, she instructed the kids to smash it to bits because OM3 had a GF.

One our our daughters was bit by one of STBX neighbors dog, took her to the doctor and the doctor said all dog bites need to be reported, its the law. She has yet to report it, conflict advoidance.

So my question or concern is how much do you put up with before you take a ex back for more custody. I would never keep the kids from her but she is to absorbed into her life to focus on the kids.

Sadmo,

You really sound torn. By sticking to a parenting schedule, you are not preventing him from see his kids. He will have his parenting time just as you will. It will be a structured schedule.

You will both (hopefully) learn to make your own personal plans with that schedule in mind so that it becomes very rare that either of you has to alter from the schedule. Swapping a weekend or two during the year is to be expected.

Flexibility works for both of you as long as you/he keep it reasonable and don't take advantage of it. Give each other plenty of 'heads up' time to adjust your calendar.

A parenting schedule may actually improve the relationship between the kids and their dad. Hopefully, he will take advantage of the time with them and not renege.

You have to maintain and enforce a parenting schedule. Reneging should not be tolerated. Should he renege on a weekend, don't swap with him. That's not flexibility, that's enabling. If you happen to have plans on a weekend that he reneges, have a back up plan. Family, babysitter, cancel, whatever.

I look at it as (I am a co-parent). Whether my kid is with her mother or not, I am still a parent and she is my first responsibility. My personal plans are secondary.

Loni, I don't disagree with what you have said - but I'd like to add that it depends a lot on the ages of the kids.

Young children thrive on routine - so insofar as it applies to young children, I wholeheartedly agree.

In my case, our kids are teenagers - with more of a social life than many adults have <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That and extracurricular activities with school etc., sometimes it's hard or even impossible to stick to a prescribed schedule, hence we're all flexible. Teenagers would rather the schedule revolve around them and their activities than a court-mandated schedule <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I do agree though, if you have made plans, stick to them. It's not your fault (or the kids') that your WS can't plan ahead. I'm having to learn that too. After a few "Sorry we have plans", WS will learn that your life is moving on, and he's going to have to get with the program if he wants to keep up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Recently, my XH planned a trip to Alaska with the OW. He had it planned for months and never told me about it. He just assumed that I would have the kids on the weekend he was supposed to but would still be on his trip. Actually, I had planned a trip for that weekend as well... I went to Mackinac with a group from work. About a week before he was supposed to leave, I finally learn when his trip was (through a kid, not him). I called him, said "you have a problem". It was supposed to be his weekend and he needed to arrange for the care of the kids.

Now, if I hadn't had plans, I would have taken the kids without a problem. But, there needs to be a two-way street in compromise. Otherwise, you are just being an enabler or pushover. He is a grown man, father, and STBXH. It is about time he grows up and behaves like a man. Since when does divorce take away from the fact that he fathered these kids. It really ticks me off to see so many dads (and moms) treat the kids like afterthoughts or worse because they get to live the single life again.

Sorry.... off the soap box now.

Loni

Well my XH was planning to take a road trip out to visit his GF - the one that moved out on him a few months ago. He was planning to take the kids with him - and I only found out because I had an opportunity to go home to visit my Mom for a few days - a b'day gift from my Mom, and when I asked XH if/when he might be able to cover for me for a few days in our business, he told me he already had vacation plans so he wouldn't/couldn't cover for me. His plans weren't set (dates tentative - it still hasn't happened yet)... but they were fixed in his mind and he never asked if it would be OK to take the kids on a cross-country road trip to see a GF that the kids never want to see again. I mentioned this on my B'day when my mom had made the offer - so when he announced his plans I said perhaps that day wasn't a good time to talk about it (I did not want to get into a fight with him over this on my b'day).

He wanted to take the kids last year on a similar road trip (GF lived with him here at that time) and I vetoed that too - his "plan" was to drop the kids off at his parents' place, continue on his trip, with no set way to get the kids home again. I proposed a compromise that we all chip in airfare - his parents and my mom live within 50 miles of each other, so if his parents, my mom, XH and myself each chipped in 1/4 of the airfare, a visit back home for the kids was doable. I don't think he ever took the proposal to his family - and he spent all his money (and then some) on the road trip so that didn't happen.

He KNEW going in that I wouldn't be receptive to his taking the kids on this trip this year - but he set it in his mind anyway. He waited another month to broach the subject again and when I vetoed it, telling him that the kids didn't want to hurt his feelings but they told ME they didn't want to see the GF but they'd love a road trip with him, he went postal on me - but he accepted my decision and that was the end of it.

Initially he was supposed to go June 23 back about July 7. Well he hasn't gone yet - though last time we spoke of HIS vacation, he intended to leave this weekend (the 7th)...he'd been waiting on a bonus from work to pay for the trip - he intends to fly now. Well he's got appointments with customers for this weekend and he hasn't told me his plans yet - I have to be able to anticipate his away time to plan for our business - and I'd asked him to keep me posted on dates so I could prepare for the business... he hasn't said a word about it since so I don't know if he's going or not, or when he's going or otherwise taking time off from his regular job.

If things had got ugly about the road trip/kids, I *do* have the decree to fall back on. Yes he's entitled to weeks with the kids, BUT he's supposed to notify me in writing of his intentions by May 15, and he did not do that, so *legally* he couldn't have compelled me to let the kids go with him. I didn't play that card, didn't want to and didn't need to - but it was kind of ironic that the schedule in the decree designed to safeguard his parental rights would have worked in my favour at that point because *he* didn't do his part.

After the big blowout about the vacation, I extended an olive branch, telling him I wanted peace between us and that I made the decision I thought was best, given the information I had before me. He didn't agree with me but he acccepted that and said he wouldn't bring it up again - and he hasn't and neither have I. Then he conceded that he might have more vacation time later to spend time with the kids on a camping trip or such, and he might be able to cover for me at some point so I can go home for a visit.

However, school starts here August 6, one month from today and our DD has band camp coming up next week and the rest of the month is tied up for her with band activities, so summer is shot for her - no chance to go camping with Dad or anybody else. I *could* have gone home for that visit last Friday and back Wednesday night if his plans had have been set - that would have worked out with our business schedule that he would only have had to leave work a bit early on Tuesday, to still cover the business without interfering with his vacation time or work schedule (beyond leaving work one hour early on one day) but that opportunity passed because his own plans were and are still up in the air. So I'm still stuck waiting on him to get his plans set and put me in the loop so *maybe* I can have some time off too. HATE being in that position - but because we own this business together, I'm more or less at his mercy in that regard.

Once our business is sold, that dynamic will change - I'm working on a buyer for the biz so I can finally be free of that tie.

JinGA

Been there JinGa.
'
Loni

A little OT here, but....

ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME??????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Your DD was put in a situation that threatened her safety. She was bitten badly enough to have to be seen by a doctor, I hope that she isn't continuing to be exposed to this so-called STBX BF of your XW's. Accidents happen but your XW's refusal to take required action just screams depraved indifference to me. I'd have her back in court so fast it would make her head spin.

Seriously, that's all I would need to start screaming for primary physical custody.

Well my "problem" now is that I would really like to reconcile with XH. I don't want to fight... and even in the disagreement over the vacation thing, when he exploded into an AO, I didn't fight. I refused to stand there and be called names - and I walked away from that (something I never could have done in the past - I'd have thrown worse names back!). At that point, he left - which angered me at the time, but in hindsight (a few hours later) I realized that was the best thing for him to do, otherwise we'd have stayed here at work all day, sniping at each other.

During the M, if he stormed out during an argument, that just threw another log onto the fire for me, and I escalated it. No more. If he wants to leave - let him leave. I'll get on with business and when we're both calm again, we can discuss it like the adults that we are.

When I threw out the olive branch, he responded in kind and actually apologized for the AO, owned it, and filed it in his place - he was angry and the statements were uncalled for and for *that* he was sorry. Fair enough - I accepted that - we all lose our cool from time to time, and he didn't qualify it saying it was all true (because he knows it isn't) - he just said that he was angry and upset and lashed out. It's not OK to do that, but since it was done, I think it was very mature of him to own it and apologize for *that* even though he disagreed with me.

He'd never have done that in the M. Any apologies had to be solicited and they weren't sincere when he was invited to apologize.

He's grown, I've grown. I think I'm farther along the learning curve at this point than he is - his other actions still show that he's getting there but he's not there yet. I'm not there yet either, but I'm actively working on it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In trying to woo him back, I've been told here that I need to show him that my life is moving on. It is moving on. I want him back, but I know that if that never happens, my life will continue and it will be good, because it is and will be what I make of it. I'm told that he won't come around until he sees with his own eyes that I'm moving on.

And to steer this post back "on topic"... part of that moving on means that if I have plans with the kids, and he springs something on me at the last minute, then I need to grow a pair and not be afraid to tell him NO - we have plans. I don't even think I need to be "sorry" about that. He *knows* the path back home is there and the door is open. If he chooses not to take that path, that's his issue. I'm not going to hold the door open forever - it may remain open a crack... but meanwhile I'm inside, doing what I need and want to do to carry on. Just because I want something/someone who doesn't want me too, doesn't mean that life stops - no siree... life goes on, and life is good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Maybe once he sees that, he may want to join us - maybe not - but if not, that's *his* loss.

JinGA

Granted, teens begin to develop schedules of their own, what with all their activities and social life and all, but that really shouldn't affect the parenting schedule.

One parent can get them to practice or a concert or a sleepover just as well as the other.

I have had parenting time with my DD whereas I hardly got to see her because she had plans of her own. Plans that I allow her to make during our time together. She checks with me first to get the nod of approval.

Teens (IMO) need structure as much, if not more than the little tykes do. They may resist a structured schedule but who's in charge?

It's ok to tell a teen NO also. If they want to have a slumber party at mom's house but its dad's weekend, the teen may have to make other plans. Dad may already have plans for their time together.

As kids turn into teens it's important for parents to manage their plans and activities along WITH the teens. You should not throw your parenting schedule to the wind simply because they become more active.

I agree. My kids are all teens now. My XH actually doesn't see them often at all because they ditch him as quickly as they ditch me. That's part of being a teenager, seperating from the parents a little at a time.

Loni

Oh I agree - and XH and I help each other and our kids out in that regard.

And if one asks if he/she can go someplace or do something when it's anticipated that they'll be with their father, HE has to OK it first. Trouble with that is that XH isn't on a 'schedule' per se, so if the kids make plans, they usually take precedence.

Believe me I know how to say NO - we live on very little money so there isn't much extra to do much. I've got great kids - they don't ask for much and what they do ask for is realistic and more often than not they actually *deserve* what they ask for and receive.

Everybody's situation is a bit different - in my case XH and I live less than a mile apart, so sharing pickup/delivery duty is easy.

JinGA

I guess that I am glad that I have young kids, and not teenagers! LOL!

It would be a lot more complicated then...
Right now my kids are 2 1/2 and soon to be 5 (even though she has been telling people that she is 5 because she is as BIG as a 5 year old ).

What I really, really struggle with is this:

I never wanted to cause my kids any kind of pain that would scar them for life (like, IMO, divorce)

I had kids with my WH thinking that we would be together forever, raising our kids.

I feel guilt in all of this (even though it is not all of my fault), and I have been encouraged by many in both of our families to act "friendly" to WH, it is better for the kids.
I want what is best for my kids, but I do not want to compromise my beliefs for it (such as being friendly with a spouse that would not work things out at all).

I do not want to send them the message that it is OK. The breakup of our M was not ok with me. It was what he wanted, and drove me to. I wanted my D's to learn that M is a thing to take seriously, put first. And now I cannot tell them that. I want what is best for them, without being taken advantage of by WH.

It is confusing. But the thing is, if he is lurking around, having 'family time' with the kids, it gets me into comfort mode with him. I let my guard down. So I cannot let that happen anymore. I want what is best for the kids, but on the same vein, I want to move on from WH. Not necessarily with another man, but in general. I have been doing a good job, but it is amazing how easily (once the emotions ran dry!) life does just go on... without him. BUT... I do not want my girls to feel that way too. I don't know. I know that the D will scar them in some way, but I have to also think of this: they will be better off too because I have not been an upset, tense, nagging wreck anymore.

So maybe that will outweigh the bad? I hope so....

Thanks for all of your stories!

There is a balance, Sadmo. You don't have to be friendly or have him spend time with you and the children together. That actually can be very confusing for the children and makes it more difficult for them to accept the divorce. I know because I saw the results when D married my Mom.

Rather then being "friendly" be "civil." Be polite.

I'm the child of divorce. The divorce did not scar me anywhere near as much as the kind of family life we had. It destroyed my sense of what was healthy in relationships. I was crying to my shrink when my parents divorced, saying that now my chances of getting divorced were increased by 50%. So they were. But, he said it wasn't because of the divorce so much as because of the relationship behaviors modeled before the divorce.

One gift our mother gave us was never bewailing the divorce. Of course, in our case, divorce was the best thing that ever happened to our family, so to pretend otherwise would have been ludicrous. That said, I think it's a fine line between disapproving of a STBX's behavior that hurt the family and putting the children in a very stressful middle. Even saying "Your mother/father wanted this. I never did" creates conflicting loyalties. Children know a lot. The figure out more as they get older.

BTW, why can't you tell them that marriage is serious business and it needs to be put first? Just because you're getting divorced doesn't mean you don't know this to be true. You're not disqualified from teaching your children and maybe helping them avoid the mistakes you and your husband made. Got to run.

Hugs.

I agree with being civil vs. friendly. It sets a good example to your xh and your kids.

My kids were older when the A happened and knew about it before I did. They were able to easily figure out who messed up the marriage. Doesn't mean that they love their dad any less, although, all of them have stated they don't respect him as much.

I don't badmouth my XH to the kids. I also have worked very hard to not badmouth the OW. My kids know that I don't like her and want nothing to do with her but I don't talk badly of her any longer. I won't, however, act cordial/civil with her. I treat her as if she doesn't exist and she is not welcome to come to my home at any time. My XH is allowed only because he is related to them.

If it weren't for the kids, I would have written both of these people out of my life a long time ago.

Loni