I'm 51, and my wife is 46. We have one eight-year-old son. Been married for twelve and a half years.

She wants a divorce. She has some pretty good reasons for this, but the reasons are in the past. There's no OM or OW involved, just us.

For the backstory, see my first post of three years ago, and then the one from just a few days ago.

My first post

Where things stand now

An incredibly compressed summary, for those that don't want to read the long posts: I caused her a lot of pain over many years because I could not accept her being fat. She had weight loss surgey and lost about 100 pounds, and all her repressed anger over my treatment of her came up. In this process, I have done some therapy, and have discovered what whas driving me to be so hurtful, and I've changed a lot, and will continue to do so.

She sees and acknowledges the changes, but just doesn't care.

We have an eight-year-old son, and I am determined to spare him the pain of having his parents split like mine did when I was eight. The unresolved abandonment issues surrounding that divorce is what has brought me to this point today.

So ... currently, she's unshakable in her plan for a divorce. If it were just the two of us, I would grieve, but I could accept that because of my feelings of guilt.

Currently, we are still maintaining the fiction (for Ty) that all is OK - we still sleep in the same bed, although we never touch. She simply says that whatever love that she had for me in the past is completely gone, and since it is completely gone, she has no wish to try to repair the marriage at all.

We're civil, almost friendly. In part due to my new awareness of my "stuff", we've had more and better conversations about our son, and other issues, than ever before. I'm learning to ignore my need to be "right" all the time.

She wants to have everything planned out, before we tell Ty - where each of us is moving, what school he'll go to, etc. She really wants to move to where her sister lives, which is over two hours away in another state, and she'd like to do that in time for him to start there in the fall. I'm am not OK with that right now. Having her sister and parents close by may be convenient for her, and nice for Ty, but it in NO way makes up for having Dad be so far away, in my opinion.

Because of circumstances here (huge house in need of repairs, school year issues, etc.) it looks like we'd be staying together in this house for many more months. To add to the fun, I work from home, and have a lot of equipment here as well. I can't just pick up and move out.

I'm starting to accept that she wants out, but I'm also getting more fearful of how I'm going to handle this period.

I'm torn between suggesting that she get an apartment for herself and Ty, and see what she thinks of the life of a working single mother, and being glad that she's still here so that I might be able to persuade her give it another go.

I've been doing Plan A for all I'm worth for the last two months or so. For an additional two months before that, I was trying, but not quite getting there. I think I've pretty much eliminated LB's, and on the odd occasion when I do screw up, I apologize as soon as I can, but the last time I got a look that very clearly said "don't bother."

Financially, she'll have no problems - she is currently doing very well, and makes at least 50% more than I do, but I do not think that she's given much thought to how difficult life is going to be on her own.

I would have to stay in this house, and continue the cleanup and repair process, and hope that we would be able to sell it with the economy as it is.

Is it too late? Should I go to Plan B? But how can you do a Plan B in the same house? I also worry that Plan B would simply look an awful lot like how I was treating her when I was in withdrawal.

There has to be an OM. Fatso is gone. Skinny hot minny loves the attention she is getting.

Need to check phone records, keylogger on the computer.

There is no OM, other than an imagined future one.

The one who accepts her, fat or not fat, and cherishes her. I could be him, if she'd let me.

I'm certain of this.

Have you read "The Passionate Marriage" By David Snarch? I found it very helpful for me. I highly recommend it. It's a big, deep book. Be prepared to spend some time soaking in the concepts.

I'm getting a divorce. My husband doesn't want me for the very same reasons you didn't want your wife. This has been coming for a long time. I weigh over 300 lbs. Apparently I'm an amazing, talented, bright, fun, caring woman, and he cares for me, except that I'm entirely unattractive to him. And that's why he went off to have an affair, and why he's using porn, still. And why he felt the need to withdraw from all aspects of our life together and behave like a complete idiot.

If I lost all the excess weight tomorrow, and he was suddenly attracted to me, I'd still divorce him. Because he's not a good man. He's made no efforts to be a good man for me. Suddenly he's seeing that without him, I'm not falling apart. That I'm moving on in a healthy direction. And now he wants to "save face" and for the first time in five years, is behaving as if he's concerned for me. Because he wants to not be the bad guy. It's just another one of his things that he does, so he doesn't have to feel so bad about himself. I'm just waiting for when his life bottoms out and he gets a reality check.

It sounds like you finally got your reality check. That's good...for you. That's your experience. It's not your wife's, however. It is going to be very difficult to get past the pain. Really difficult. Your wife is looking to shore up her self-respect. Staying with you, knowing how you loathed looking at her and touching her, pretty hard to get past. But you know that.

All you can do now is be the man you truly want to be. Build integrity in yourself, make life choices that are meaningful to you, treat her with genuine respect. And if you love her, give her space. When she feels safe with you again, she may respond to you.

I have to say, you are seriously projecting your experience of divorce on to your son. I don't mean to belittle the pain that divorce inflicts on children, but your experience of divorce is yours. Not his. The absolutely best thing you can do is be the best man you can be, and the best father you can be. Back when your parents divorced, there was all sorts of trauma heaped upon children from broken homes...even that term implies something horrible. You aren't destined to repeat that. You have the power to make the experience very different for your son. And it's an opportunity for you to redefine the experience for yourself.

JP

JP,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
I haven't read that one. I'll take a look on Amazon. I've mostly been reading books on the aftereffects of childhood traumas. Search for anything by David Richo. Amazingly powerful stuff.
I'm so very sorry to hear all this.
But what if he figured out why he did these things, and was able to change the dysfunctional parts of himself? Perhaps it's not about being "bad", but about being "broken" instead?

In that case, is there nothing of value to be saved?

In my case, I have the feeling that it really wasn't *me* doing and saying these things. There was an eight-year-old boy in my head, screaming in pain and fear, lashing out in every direction, trying to keep himself "safe". It amazes me to discover this after 43 years, and even more so because two different therapists pointed this out within 20 minutes of talking to me.

One told my wife, "Don't take it personally, if it wasn't your weight, it would have been something else."
Yes. I truly get how much pain I caused. My hope was that my remorse and apologies and changed behavior would have helped her to regain self-respect, rather than divorcing me. I have been divorced once before, and it really doesn't make it better. This one certainly won't.
That's what I'm trying to do. It's difficult to give her space, given that we're still in this house together - if we split, there is *so much* to deal with - yet I don't want to start the process if there's the slightest chance that time might heal these wounds. And I'm still very reactive to any little thing that I perceive as an opening. Trying to read the tea leaves, so to speak. I shouldn't do this, but it's hard not to.

As to feeling safe ... she says that she couldn't. She says she could gain weight again and that I've proven that I can't handle that. (But that wasn't really *me* !) She says that there's simply no love left whatsoever to motivate her to try, and that even if there were she thinks she'd have to "stuff" her anger again in order to do it. Appealing to her sense of honor, as in honoring her vows would only piss her off more.
Yes, I'm aware that there's some projecting going on. At the same time I can't ignore my own experience. And it cannot possibly be a *positive* thing for him, even though our home wasn't filled with affection between my wife and myself, it was not filled with rancor either. And if she could forgive me, it would be filled with love and affection in the future.

I told her, "Give me an inch, and I'll give you a mile."

MH

"There is no OM, other than an imagined future one."

And how have you verified this?

Do you know how many H's show up here with the same story as you.
After snooping they find out there is an OM. You don't have to pull your head out of the sand just bcause I say so. Though how about for the other's I have mentioned?

Please take my word for it. In any case, she simply wouldn't have the time.

Chasing red herrings will not help me.

Does not have the time?

Full time job with a one hour lunch every day.

Do you the number of WW and OM lunch time hookups take place?

Have you read up on how to plan A.

Yes, familiar with plan A. Although I should probably go and refresh my memory.

As to the possibility of an affair; she's in the office only one to three days a week, other than that she works at home, as do I. We keep a very busy schedule, and much of it is done together.

But the bigger point is that I know precisely why she's where she is now, and it makes sense. What doesn't make sense (at least to me) is her inability to see the huge downside of her plan for our future, and her refusal to see any upside in staying together.

We could get through this and come out great. Maybe not, but after twelve years and a son ... why not at least *try*????

Until now, she had not even acknowledged the issues, much less attempted to deal with them.

She probably felt the same way about you, why couldn't you see things differently...you can't force her to "see the light". Only she can come to that decision. In her own time. Don't you want her coming to you because she really wants you?

You keep working on you...that's all you have control over. Live life without filtering your experiences through your past.

JP

I would do 3 things.

Take steps to ensure she doesn't move away. Whatever it takes.

Start working on a 3-year plan that includes a possibly long-term relationship with her; women take SO much longer to learn to trust again. And our looks are more than guys consider them to be, to us.

And realize if she is not acknowledging issues, she has deeper stuff to work on. Be there for her.

Seriously, if you are telling her "that wasn't really me" you need to stop...because that really was you at that time.

Hearing those words, to me, would sound like a man who now sees the wife he always wanted...losing weight, becoming more attractive, etc...and realizes he has to do some damage control or he is going to lose her.

Telling her that wasn't you, is not accepting the responsibility of your words/actions that hurt her very deeply.

I've accepted responsibility for everything, and apologized over and over. But I have also discovered what was driving me, and it's something I plan to leave behind. That frantic eight-year-old boy inside - his fight to keep the world away - driving her away too. It is in that sense only that I say it wasn't me --- it wasn't the adult me. Still my fault, and still acknowledged and regretted deeply.

I have come a long way in a couple of months, and I have hope and a plan to continue to change, until I can just be me, without fear and without shame. Or at least not so controlled by the fear and shame from the past.

Even she says that she's seen changes in me.

I'm sure she did. If only I had ...

If only ... if only ...

Your last bit of advice is the hardest; it's why I'm continuing in therapy and trying to do my "homework", which is to comfort the little guy. Meaning that little guy still crying inside.

It would be hard to get through this, even with your wife's help; to do it under these conditions is just brutal.

An idea came to me today, a plan that is taking shape. My father is still alive, and I'm going to go see him and talk to him about his divorce from my mother. This will be the chance that he never really had to comfort his son. My father won't let me down, and I know, deep down inside me, that it will really help me to jump-start this process of letting go of my defenses.

Yes, moving away is out of the question for right now. I don't think she could force that issue successfully, either.

Gods ... I hope this doesn't take three years, but if it does, it does.

In her opinion, the issue that she used to have was putting up with abuse. But that is past.

Right now, she thinks her only issue is getting loose (at any cost)from someone she doesn't want to be married to because he hurt her too much and she simply doesn't feel any love for him any longer.

But she went from a sudden realization of all the "stuffed" anger, to a determination to divorce in all of 40 days or less.

I wouldn't believe that she is over it for a second. Of course you want it to be over because dealing with your penance sucks. We want to be forgiven, forgotten, and start over. She doesn't want to relive all that pain, so she wants it over as well. She can't just forget though, and she can't just reset her bank balance back to zero, using MB terms. But I don't think it's over.

I say this because you're going to treat her right and expect a positive response, but you won't get that because in MB terms, you've got a negative balance. Way negative. You aren't going to see a positive response in long time, and you need to remember that to keep from getting discouraged.

By "only issue" and "past", I meant that she doesn't feel she has anything to gain by individual therapy, the way that I do.

Good Lord ... I *know* she's not "over" anything!

But your point about an extremely negative love-bank balance is well-taken and I hadn't quite thought about it in those terms. I can see now why it's going to take a long time before I could possibly dream of getting any positive feedback.

Ouch. Ouch. Ouch.

It just hurts so damn much, knowing what's hanging in the balance, and then knowing which way the balance is weighted now and by how much.

Sometimes I wish I was still "stupid", and was still full of self-righteous anger instead of being consumed with guilt and remorse. I'm not sure I was any happier then, but it was easier!

So I found my salvation in action movies.

I probably only thought about my situation 56 times in three and a half hours (two movies) instead of constantly.

But I had an epiphany; I get how this "married" thing is supposed to work now. (Boy am I late to the party!) I'm thinking that this is what was supposed to be happening all along.

In all the gorgeous females on the screen, I saw Beth's beautiful green eyes ... I saw her lips, her breasts.

She's EveryWoman to me. An archetype.

I get it now.

To answer my own question, yes, it is.

I can't control what she wants, thinks or does. And she wants out.

Last night I essentially "showed her the door".

I agreed with all her complaints, agreed that she couldn't ever forgive nor trust me again, and then told her that the charade must end --- we tell our son NOW, we quit sleeping in the same bedroom, we let the rest of the world (our social world) know, and we quit trying to function together as an intact family.

The intent right now is that she move out (locally) with Ty, while we work on this house. I'm not sure about that --- an in-house separation might be OK, but it would make it more difficult to "move on" for all of us.

If they move out, she gets a taste of what life as a single mother will be like, and Ty gets to ease into "Dad isn't here anymore" without being over two hours away.

I get to ease into "single life" without him being over two hours away as well.

I'm angry. I can't help it. It didn't have to be this way.

So we're doing the in-house separation thing. Two weeks into it.

I blew it again --- went back to trying to convince her to "try". That's so stupid, since it just doesn't work.

Tonight I had a very uncomfortable thought; maybe she was the one who "settled" when we married? It's always been me who was accused of that, but I'm not sure at all.

I was conflicted about it by the time the wedding came around, but not when I proposed.

But in all our years together, I don't recall hearing "I love you" from *her*, more than a few times. Unfortunately, even though I said it more frequently, it was always in the context of crying over how messed-up I felt because of her weight.

I truly felt that my wife loved french fries more than she loved me.

I really hope you realize how insulting and self-righteous that sounds.

Catperson,

I assume that you are referring to the "french fries" comment.

How to explain?

First, that's how it *felt to me*, not necessarily how it was. I understand that now.

If you've read through my threads here, you'll recall the childhood abandonment issues I've learned about and am working on.

Part of that unlovely package of stuff is never quite being able to believe that you are loved, as well as looking at damn near everything as evidence to support those beliefs. So wife can't lose weight when I ask/need her to = wife doesn't love me.

That's how it felt to me.

But you know, now that I'm looking back and trying to figure all this out, maybe she really didn't love me. Maybe she settled for the first guy that would have her. I know that we're well-matched in so many ways, and we did have a lot of fun together, but did she ever really love me?

She certainly didn't say it often; hardly ever, in fact.

When their parents divorce, young children typically blame themselves; I've been told that the reason for this is that it gives them a feeling of control over the situation - "If it is my fault, then I can fix it."

I think that I've been doing that to some degree --- assuming 100% of the blame for the sad thing that our marriage became, figuring that if it was *all* my fault, then just changing me alone could fix it. Again, all about trying to regain some control over a situation where I have none.

She had to have a part in this. We were both there. It could not have been "all me".

I can stand losing her, even though I believe that we could finally grow together, but my heart bleeds for our son.

We just had his eighth birthday party yesterday. He was so happy. He said, "This was my best birthday *ever*!"

I had to choke back my tears. He doesn't yet know what's coming, and coming soon.

MH

MH, you can choose to "pick the worst belief in the bunch," or you can remember that these changes you are working on are for you and your life, and shift your focus to the benefits you are getting from your hard-earned changes today.

What have been the benefits to you and your family from your changes so far?

For example, for me, I am kicking a lifelong habit of judging and sporadic AOs, from well before I met my H. I am making true-blue friends that I think will be with me for a lifetime. I have found a deeper respect for my H that helps me be a far better parent to our kids. I can see how specific character traits they get from him are huge assests and were not liabilities.

So you had abandonment issues.

What kind of issues do you think your wife had? Must be pretty paramount to allow her to salvage it all with overeating. And it must have culminated in even greater self-hatred on her part to continue that way, and then to know what you really think of her, and then to know that she lacks the willpower to fix herself, and to be waiting for the day you give up on her because of all her ugliness inside and out.

Sorry, but I don't see you really understanding - or attempting to - who she really is.

Until you are humble enough to bring yourself down to the level of others who are hurting, you don't deserve her. JMHO.

My church's youth minister passed away suddenly yesterday. She was about 35. She was morbidly obese. We had to wait 6 months to get her 2 years ago because she was in the process of adopting two girls whose mother had abandoned them, and she had to jump through legal hoops to be able to move to another state. She was the most godly, loving, giving person in our entire church. Yet it hurt to look at her, she was so overweight. But we won't remember that. We'll remember what a gift from God she was to us, and to her husband, and to those poor girls who lost their best chance at life with her.

You could take a person's soul and bottle it up, and that body that was left behind wouldn't mean squat - the 'person' would be in that bottle.

What are you looking to be in love with?

EO,

Thanks for the encouragement.

It's just something that occurred to me, and I thought that it was worth considering. I had a talk with her parents yesterday before the birthday party. Her Dad spoke of how his idea of love was that he always was thinking, "what can I do for her?".

I realized that as nice as that sounded, I had not experienced that from his daughter --- and I started to wonder if it was only because I wasn't capable of letting it in, or because it just hadn't been there.

My son and I get along better than ever. *HE* has noticed and commented on how much more patient I have become, and "kinder".

Beth just doesn't care. And since I can't shake this despair for any length of time, I end up blowing it again and again.

That all sounds good! I am happy that things are working out better for you.

MH, are you getting adequate support for this? Do you get eough exercise? Would ADs and IC benefit you in this? Have you thought about calling the Harleys? I've spoken to Steve myself and he's an amazing motivator. Maybe in-home separation isn't the best option for you?

I can REALLY relate to the despair, MH. I am trying to say, MH, how can you keep that manageable?

cat,

That's all ancient history over a span of twelve years, what I was relating to you. I've spent the last four months or so trying to untangle the real from the "stuff."

She took care of the weight problem surgically. LAP-Band, about 20 months ago. She's been the model patient, which does require a good bit of self-control.

I fully realize the enormity of the pain I caused. I've also learned why I did it, and I'm working very hard to learn to not let the screaming eight-year-old-me run my life.

The more I dig, the more I find ways that he runs the show, sometimes even when I think he isn't. How I wish he'd just shut up and leave me alone! (grin)

As to her issues, she claims she doesn't have any that need work. This doesn't sound reasonable to me. Does it to you?

My hope was that she'd start on this and that in doing so she'd defuse some of her anger about the past, allowing us to have a future together.

Doesn't look at all likely now.

MH

EO,

Thanks again ... I can actually feel your concern, and it means a lot to me.

I've been doing some IC, exploring the childhood stuff and how to deal with it. I was reading a ton of books on the subject, and on dropping the associated defensiveness, but stopped when it became clear where we were headed.

I bought B a book on forgiveness, but she never opened it, and pointedly left it upstairs when she moved downstairs.

As far as AD's - I don't think I need that again. I'm really through the worst of it already. The worst was very bad - the fun thing about childhood abandonment "stuff" is that when someone is leaving you really truly feel like you are going to die. Not on an intellectual level - on a gut level that floods you with adrenaline constantly.

Thankfully, the worst of that is over.

And what the heck ... I've lost about 33 pounds on the "adrenaline diet", so it's all good.

I wish I could get B to talk to the Harleys, just to get her one outside voice to speak in favor of commitment and possibility, but her anger want to stay alive.

MH

More likely impossible that she doesn't have issues she's not addressing.

Working on yourself is the best way to work on your marriage, but I'm sure you know that. IC is good, volunteering is even better - it takes the focus off of yourself and allows you to be who you are without thinking about it, but also to grow and learn by helping others who are in worse shape than you.

Don't give up, keep working, but realize that 4 months in IC talk is just seconds compared to the time it will take to really get anywhere. After all, you spent 18 years forming the person who is now you. What have you done to address your past issues? Have you talked to your parents or other responsible people in your life? It can be very freeing to do so. And you usually get another side of your story you weren't prepared for.

I spent 40 years feeling inadequate because of a memory of my older brother getting to go to a special academy, which happened right after we took IQ tests. In my mind, I was stupid so I couldn't go there with him. Just a month ago, I spoke to my mom about it, and she told me that I actually scored higher than him, we both had genius IQs, it was just that he was such a hellion that the public school kicked him out! If I had only talked about it to her decades ago, I could have spared myself a lot of inferiority complex.

In other words, look for out of the box ways to address your issues.

Thanks, MH. I am so relieved to hear that the worst is over. It's been really helpful for me to remember that, too, that our lives are getting better and better every day. I think that you will find that the despair is something you can kick, too. It sounds like you have looked at the question of whether you are getting enough support, and I'm glad that you are taking the action that you need. And cat, Kudos to you!

Well, that's what I think too. Too bad she doesn't think so.
More like 43 years since my parents' divorce when I was eight.
Yes, I've done that. Two weeks ago I spent an afternoon with my father and we talked about that period of time. I also talked with my sister, who's three years older than me, and had much better memories of the whole thing (I have *none* from age eight to ten or so). I just shut down, and stayed that way.

Another thing that I've tried is to have a dialog between my "adult self" and the "Lost Boy" (as I call him). This is something recommended in several books that I've read, as well as by the therapist that I've been seeing. The idea is that I'm supposed to comfort and reassure him, the way that he was not comforted back then. It's not really worked all that well yet -- I just end up in tears, repeating "Why did you leave?" and not able to get much beyond that. The visit with my father was also supposed to be like this, but he couldn't quite manage it either --- we're both a bit too "rational" to be able to pull it off.

He left because my mother was having an affair and told him it was over and she wanted to marry the OM. He told me that he's always regretted not telling her that if she wanted to go, then go, but the kids stay.

She did marry the OM, and they're still together. He's not a bad guy, but it was a bad situation for my sister and I to be in.


Wow! What a shame ... and yet how liberating now.

MH

Please consider no longer referring to the litte boy, scared and crying inside. Your psychologist/therapist has allowed you to attribute your conduct to an event very long past in your history.

You say you've taken responsibility for the way you treated your wife, and yet you continue to reference your actions and feelings to "the little boy".

I do not mean this harshly, but far worse has happened to people than a difficult parental divorce - and yet they have grown up to be stand up people who do not abuse their spouses for being fat and make their lives a living misery.

Ulimately you decided how to treat her. It wasnt the "little boy inside" treating her like that. It was you. You didnt have to treat her that way, no matter what happened to you as an 8yr old. You chose to.

Also, I'm not surprised she doesnt want to make things work. As soon as you realised you probably arent going to get what you want you have managed to vilify her and point out how she too has failed you and the marriage. You are ignoring the advice of many on here that your job now is not to worry about her but to continue fixing yourself.

IndigoSun,

My task is to learn to handle my own "stuff". You may ignore what you seem to consider to be "psychobabble" (as I did for too many years), but I've been forced to admit that there's a lot of truth in what I've read and learned in the last few months.

In any case, your post isn't terribly helpful, nor have you offered anything new; I've already got plenty of guilt and do not need any more.

MH

I agree with everything IndigoSun wrote. You claim to be owning your "stuff" but pin in on your wounded inner child. I'd have very little respect for my H if that was his rationalization to treating me so poorly. Women typically don't love men they can't respect. It's been 3 yrs since your first post...I say it's too late. You were cruel to your W for years and still want to blame shift by claiming the cruelty wasn't REALLY you it was the lost 8 yr old boy in you.

It's too late IMO. Let your W be. She's sounds rational and realistic. She is making plans for a support system. Don't patronize her that she doesn't REALLY now how hard it will be to be a divorced single mother. She survived you.

OK, let me try this, and see if it makes you two any happier.

I treated my wife badly because deep down, I'm a sh*t, and I'll always be a sh*t. And I *chose* to be a sh*t because I found it so amazingly rewarding and pleasant!

Since I'll always be a sh*t, there's no point in examining anything any further, nor in trying to understand why.

Does that work for you?

It used to work for me ... no, wait, that's not true at all. It NEVER worked for me, it made me and those around me terribly unhappy. Thinking that way and never questioning my own internal landscape caused me to ruin this marriage. If only I'd learned sooner, I could have started to change sooner ... if only ... if only.

Rather than dismissing psychology, you might do some reading. I certainly found it enlightening, and you just might as well.

I highly recommend this book by David Richo: When the Past is Present - Healing the Emotional Wounds that Sabotage our Relationships

You are right, it is indeed too late.

Anyway, enough with the attacks. Please stop.

MH

Attacks? Try an observation from a third party that has no vested interest in your life whatsoever. But go ahead and call me or others 'meanies' because we don't agree with you. No one said you will always be sh*t but most here aren't going to tell you what you want to hear just so you feel better. Your attitude sucks but go ahead and throw yourself on the knife whining about how you will always be sh*t. It's very attractive. :RollieEyes:

I'll refrain for posting on your tread. Good day.

MH, I'm a layperson psychologist; probably read a lot more than you have. And I do place a lot of strength on understanding our FOO to learn why we do what we do, just like you do. IMO, it is essential to know that FOO stuff. Because it becomes literally hardwired in our brains - we continue to do what worked in childhood because those synapses connected to those actions are strengthened through use and are the first available.

BUT. The whole point of learning that FOO stuff is in learning how to overcome it. Have you? Are you? In what way? How have you addressed your inner child? Have you gotten past your anger at your mistreatment, learned forgiveness for those who did it?

If not, you have no business worrying about what your wife does or doesn't do, because you are your own worst enemy. And hers.

yes.
yes, yes, therapy sessions and "homework", not anger but fear, fear,fear, and the belief that I'm not worthy of love. Classic childhood abandonment issues.

Forgiveness? Not necessary, because I'm well aware that it wasn't intentional, nor was what happened so terrible - from an adult point of view. My father did not abandon me; it only *felt* that way to me then, and then somehow I got "stuck" there.
I certainly have been our worst enemy. For years. I'm trying hard to fix that. Dealing with childhood abandonment issues while in the middle of an abandonment is no fun, but I guess that's the time that one is most likely to become aware of them, no?

Thanks for speaking up.

MH

MH, I agree with you that it's important to understand your FOO, and that demeaning yourself over past mistakes or living with guilt is not the way to go.

You know who you are and what your worth, so does God. That doesn't mean it's so easy for everyone else to see that. In MB terms, your wife has a very negative love bank when it comes to you because of all that has happened. You can't expect her to ignore that, and it needs to be respected.

You don't need validation from her that you have worth and you are unlikely to get it for a very long time if at all. All you can do is live today the way you know how, doing what you know you should. I don't know what it is you need to do, but proving to others that you have changed, and you are not the person you used to be is not it. They will see you for who you are when they are ready to.

I think this is the best advice I've gotten. It's hard to follow when you have a passionate attachment to a particular outcome.

I think what's making it so hard to let go, and accept Beth's decision is that I'm finally realizing that what I've done and what I've been over the years didn't just hurt Beth, and hurt me, and it won't be confined to the past.

Even though I'm no longer doing what I did, and trying to be someone different now, my past mistakes are moving into the future to hurt my son. And I can't seem to stop that from happening no matter how hard I try. Future guilt ... coming to catch up with me for past sins.

It's like a plot from a bad time-travel science fiction novel.

I want to make it better, but I can't.

MH

I disagree. I have seen men who no longer live with their kids, who have resolved to become the most amazing father in the world. And pretty much succeeded.

Being a great father isn't about logistics. It's about time, concern, interaction, guidance, love, sacrifice, and faith.

I often say that there is only one true thing that a child needs to flourish: to know that he is loved unconditionally. As long as that child knows he is WANTED, and LOVED, he can accomplish anything in life.

If you indeed separate and divorce, you can choose two paths. To go your own way, try to start a new life with a new woman, and give your son what time you have left. Which will leave him feeling like a waste of your time.

Or you can live a parallel life, moving as close as possible to his home, ensuring that you are there for every baseball game, every Scout meeting, every concert, every crying jag over a girl...sharing his life with your ex-wife. As friends.

And he will grow up knowing love. And maybe even having faith enough in the institution of marriage to give it a try himself one day.

MiserableHubby,
You seem to assume that your son's experience of your divorce will be equivalent to your experience of your parents' divorce. I want to suggest to you that that is a faulty assumption. We know a lot more today about the effect of divorce on children and what strategies to follow to mitigate the worst effects.

I'm not saying divorce has no effect. I'm saying that if you learn the best ways to get your son through the experience, he won't end up like you did.

My parents separated (then divorced) when I was 7 and my brother was 3. Today we are both very happy, healthy, productive members of society. I am blissfully married to a man who claims to be just as happy as I am. There are plenty of people who come through their parents' divorce without the deep psychological wounds you bare. If you apply yourself, you can ensure that's the case for your son as well.

This is what my father did. Although I must add that he and my mother were never ever friends.

We spent almost every single weekend with my father, and went on vacation with him once a year. They do visitation differently now -- both parents often get at least one weeknight and alternate weekends. The idea is that both parents should have an active role in both the school life and the fun life of the child. It's a bit more challenging logistically, but it can be done.

My father always maintained bedrooms in his home for us. He made it very clear that we had TWO HOMES -- we weren't guests in his house. When my parents first split, my father rented an apartment in the complex next to my mother's apartment complex. If we had been older, we could have ridden our bikes between the two. He drove by and said hello to me at the bus stop as I waited to go to school every morning. My mom hated it because she thought he was keeping tabs on her (he was), but he was also doing it to be close to us. When my mom moved us to a house, he bought on in a neighboring development.

Thanks all for the encouragement.

I'm certainly resolved that he won't share my experience. I tell him every single day that I love him more than anything in the world.

Logistics are going to be a problem - she's planning on moving 2 1/2 hours away, and realistically there's no way that I could follow in anything less than a year. I'm hoping to be able to keep this house, so that there'd be some stability for him when he's "visiting". It's going to be a stretch; business isn't good right now.

We are talking about him being with me for most of the summer --- actually swapping physical custody then, and Beth to have visitation. It's too far away to see him for a weeknight, so alternate weekends during the school year are what we're talking about now.

I think that I'm doing, or trying to do the right things as far as this stuff is concerned, but it doesn't help much with how I *feel*.

MH

Wait a minute. Are you guys already divorced? If not, how can she pick up and move your son away from you? Have you got a lawyer involved?

Cat,

No, not yet.

Here's the plan (her plan). We stay here in this house through the end of the school year. We negotiate custody issues and property division, do the legal work and she wants to be in PA in time for the start of the next school year.

Her parents and sister live up there ... she'll need the built-in babysitting since she'll have to overnight at least once a week for work, which will be an hour and a half south - she's been told that they want her in the office a minimum of two days a week. She makes about 2 1/2 times what I do, so it's not a job she would want to give up, especially now.

She is so completely committed to this plan that unless a lawyer tells me that I've got a very good chance of successfully fighting it, I'm better off giving her what she wants in return for other concessions --- like getting him for the summer.

Questioning her plan is like trying to convince her that I'm worth taking a chance on ... it's like talking to a wall.

I do have a call in to one of the best lawyers down here; he's slow to return calls, but I expect to have a chance to talk to him in a week or two, and then I'll know more about the likely outcomes if we cannot agree, and end up in court.

Today I actually managed to get my mind into my work somewhat, which was a real relief. I spend so much time agonizing over this situation that every hour seems like days. The thought of having to do this for months just makes me want to die.

NOT GOING TO DO THAT, SO DON'T EVERYBODY FREAK OUT.

Just how I feel, that's all.


MH

You need to talk to a lawyer. Or three. I have no idea what state you live in, but where I live (in Illinois, in case you didn't guess) she would have a very hard time moving that far away from you without proving your incompetence as a parent or her total inability to get a paying job within a reasonable distance. You would have to agree to a plan like this. In Illinois, they could actually give YOU temporary custody for that year because SHE is trying to leave and here, to grossly oversimplify whoever leaves (the area not the marriage) loses.

YOU are the built in overnight babysitter for YOUR OWN child.

FYI, this is also the general rule in California and Nevada. You can't just take the kids away from their other parent without a very good reason. And you getting him all summer is not great either. He is going to miss his friends and get uprooted and he will slide back to being with his mom.

You need to fight for what is right for your son and that is having his dad around and involved. Allowing this is nonsense. If you can't follow then she can't go.

She does not get to raise this child without you unless you let her do that. I recommend that you get Alec Baldwin's book about his divorce. I think hes a loon and that his kid is better off with limited contact with him, but he still is right about his biggest mistake being not just doing it the way his ex-wife wanted.

DO NOT LET GO OF YOUR CHILD!

Sorry about the 2x4

Thanks.

We're in Delaware. I'll know more after I speak with the lawyer. I'll give him another call today to get an appointment.

MH

MH, I think we get the most uncomfortable-miserable right before the next big growth spurt. There is a poster here, LovingAnyway, who is really amazing at helping folks learn how to break out of the ruts they are done with and identify where they want to go next emotionally. I think this is why you are posting, that you've made a great deal of growth, and have done the work and gotten the positive momentum for the next big leap forward. Am I getting that right? If so, I encourage you to call out to her on StillLost's thread on EN and ask her to join you here.

Ears,

Yes, I've read a lot of her posts. Some are a bit intimidatingly dense (and I mean that as heavy, full and thick - not stupid). A lot like a 90 minute session with a therapist, condensed into a few paragraphs.

Might be a good idea.

I seem to be able to break out of the rut from time to time, but not *stay* out.

As much as I'd like to agree that I "have done the work", that's not accurate - I've identified the problem, and I've started chipping away at it. It's just so bloody HUGE. My whole life has been about fear and shame, and trying to keep myself safe. And that would be "safe" as in a childish understanding of the word, not an adult understanding.

Catperson's statements about how learned responses are self-reinforcing is very accurate. It's daunting to come to realize that in just about any situation my first response is probably the exact *wrong* thing to do or say.

Frankly, it's a wonder that I'm not worse off than I am.

Well - time to get to work again. The boy's home for a second day with a sinus infection; we're headed to his doctor at 10am, then I have a session at 11am, so if I'm to get anything accomplished today, I'd better get to it.

And by the way, Ears ... if I haven't apologized to you for the things that I said several years ago ... I am sorry.

MH

I think I want to get that tattooed onto my forearm so it will always be handy.

MH, thanks for the apology, I accept it. I remember feeling like I wasn't getting it, and I was complaining about it to a good friend, and she said to me, look at you hon, your're flying! And it HIT me, I was! I didn't have to wait another minute!
And seriously, it just gets better and better from there. Even though my marriage didn't turn out the way I thought.

I hope you come back Monday, MH, and you have had a total reprieve this weekend. The stuff with your wife, doesn't hurt, you look at it and think, this is exactly where it's supposed to be today.

That's good --- I remember I made some sort of general apology in another thread, but it was not personal enough.

The last couple of days have been better - I finally forced myself to get back to work and that's kept my mind from jumping back in that rut.

I don't think I can get to the point where I think it's where it's supposed to be, but I sure hope I can at least stop worrying about it for fifteen minutes here and there.

MH

Ears,

I don't know if I'm cut out for this struggle, as I'm already losing my love for her.

STBX and son spent Sunday up north for STBX's mother's 70th birthday party. When they got back, Ty told me about a house Mom had looked at just down the street from Aunt Wendy's.

This morning, STBX related that she hadn't told him, he'd just guessed. I replied that it didn't matter, because he knew what her plans were, and that while it wasn't certain, it was likely to go that way.

As I was talking to her, it hit me that at this point if we were to try to stay together, I'd have just about as hard a time accepting her back as she would have accepting me.

In my last counseling session, my therapist asked me, "Do you really want to be with someone who refuses to look at their own issues, or take responsibility for their part?"

My response was that for the sake of my son, I'd want to try, and that I figured with time, perhaps she would work on them, and between the two of us changing, we'd make it.

Now I don't know. I guess that's possible, but I don't feel as inspired by that possibility as I used to.

It's really, really funny - on Saturday I had a long talk with my eight-year-old son, explaining as well as I could in an age-appropriate manner just why this all was happening. I told him that I felt guilty that he was going through this because of things that I had done in the past. Do you know what an eight-year-old saw? He said, "Don't feel so bad, Dad. It's not all your fault. Mom was there too, you know."

Out of the mouths of babes, indeed. It's telling that a kid can see that, but she can't. Nope, she's got no part in this at all, and no "issues". Sure!

Oh well. Now I have to wait until the 26th, to see what the attorney has to say about the likelihood of her plan being acceptable to a Delaware court if I decided to fight it, and just what the likely distribution of assets would be in light of the disparity in our incomes and ages. Not to mention the possibility, however remote, that I might be able to keep Ty with me.

She was not happy to hear that I was deferring any further planning until after that appointment.

It's a long wait, but it was the first available time.

(Somewhat Less)M(STBX)H

MH, I think that is part of this, too, Plan A, the "reality bringer." Do you think this may be healthier in a way, the loving detachment? You are taking steps, like meeting with a family law attorney, that protect your family long-term from temporary circumstances. And if the situation becomes more long-term, then it will be important then that you took these steps, too. If you read on the board, it is hard to figure out what is "too stuck in what was" to take steps to protect the family. None of it was obvious to me, either. That's one of the reasons I asked you about your support network, because it's important that you are getting the support you and your family needs, like the attorney.

That's really tough, what you discussed with your son. I think it was really important that he saw you as someone he was comfortable to talk with, and that he is not blaming himself, as some kids do. I am glad that he has your support through this, and I think this shift in the present will help make amends for what wasn't there for you when you were at that age.