I haven't posted here in quite some time.
Long story short - XH cheated multiple times. Was verbally and physically abusive. Had lots of issues related to our kids - blended family - him 2, me 1. He accused me of EA w/man at church. I have to admit that I was attracted but never crossed a physical line but did flirt and know that was wrong.
I loved my H and still find him attractive. I am really torn b/c I still have many unresolved feelings and issues. I wish we could repair relationship but we could never talk and talk through anything. I have diagnosed myself as co-dependent and am a helper and fixer.
We had a business before the D and I still help him w/paperwork. He helps me w/projects around my house.
I am not talking to or dating anyone. I'm not sure about him. He gets many text messages when I'm around and he is often very evasive about who, etc. He does some of the same stuff that he did when cheating. I know it's none of my business now but, I still have feelings for him (love?) and am curious and mistrusting of him.
When I try to analyze why I continue to hold onto the R, such as it is, I don't know. I believe the biggest is b/c I don't want to be alone. We don't have a physical relationship but we do tell each other that we love each other - or did until last night.
I was helping w/tax paperwork and didn't finish until midnight. I stretched out on the couch beside him and we both fell asleep. I ended up staying the night and slept in same bed w/him but fully clothed - me. He started kissing me and I kissed him back. We both fell asleep. At some point he started touching me and I said "no" - but he assured me he wouldn't when we went to bed.
This morning he was distant and cold. After I left and got home, I got several text messages that we could be friends but he needed to make some changes in his life. We didn't have anything and what we had wasn't working for him. He said he wouldn't have done anything last night but was testing me. When I asked what the test was he wouldn't answer.
I am so confused. My DD hates him. I have no relationship w/his kids and don't really like them. There's no R w/my family b/c of the stuff he did. There is always an amazing amount of drama in his life and I don't want to deal w/any of that. He is in poor health and has no health insurance post D. He still has business we started that requires him to go to people's homes for renovations. That's where he met some of the women he had A's with.
It was always a big deal to him that I continued going to church where the guy was. So, I stopped even though that meant that I go to another church while my DD and family go to the one I left. He still has relationship with the daughter of last woman he had A with as well as w/her father.
So, can someone please tell me why I am still running after this man to keep him in my life? What good could come out of this?

There's an old saying, "Friends can become lovers but lovers can never become friends." It is very true. Even the MB concepts for breaking up affairs, plan B and recovering marriages align with this. You cannot be friends with your ex without the pain you are feeling now. Until you remove him from your life completely, you will continue to feel this way.

Tabby1, Thanks for the reply. I'm sure you are right. I don't want to be friends. I would like to repair what is a hopeless situation. My fear of never hearing "I love you" from someone other than family I think is a part of why I stay in contact.
When I look objectively at the situation I see nothing to build on but, the emotional thought of saying goodbye and walking away tears my heart out.
This is easily one of the hardest things I've ever dealt with and I've dealt with alot. This is my second marriage and my first D was an absolute breeze compared to this.

You're scared.


You are certainly not doing yourself any favors being around this man. He's divorced but still gets the benefits of being with YOU. Don't think he's stopped sleep around... if he did it while married, he's certainly not stopped because of the divorce.

You're also divorced, but you're still dealing with the person who caused you so much pain. And your helping that person advance in his life. I'd certainly be unhappy with that situation.

He's not alleviating your fears, but being with him gives you a false sense of security. False being the key word. You're hoping to hear ILY again, but he's not going to be the guy. And any decent guy will not get w/i 20 feet of you with the smell of XH all over you. You're probably not giving off alot of 'Hey, I'm fun and single' vibes, either.

I think you have to CLOSE that door, firmly, then move on. You've never closed that door.

My advice would be to start disconnecting yourself from this man now. It will take some time, but now is the time to start.

What have you been doing to develop your life? What do you want to do? How about rebuilding your relationship with your family? Hobbies, career, classes, friends, exercise, time with your DD?

I'm not sure how one would 'resolve' this. He's a cheater and a bully, and he took advantage of you. You got divorced and he's still taking advantage of you.

Resolving this may mean moving on to the next step in your life. It certainly seems like you are stuck. That's got to be depressing. Doing things without him might help you get some confidence back.

It's a start, anyway.

He's an easy crutch for you. That may have been useful in the early days of the D, but no longer. As you see, he's getting the benefit of your current relationship. You're only getting more despondent.

Ditch the crutch... You can do better!

Everything Drucilla said is also true. Also, think about this particular statement for a moment:
(A) Your ex is never going to be the guy that says this and

(B) There's no room for anyone else to come along and be this for you as long as your ex is around.

It is scary to step out there on your own, but it's the only way you will ever heal completely. Until you heal completely, you cannot move on to these loftier goals.

My advice would be to start disconnecting yourself from this man now. It will take some time, but now is the time to start.

I have to agree with Drucilla. I think some couples who divorce are capable of still being friends and associates, but some can't. The connection you've kept seems as though it hasn't been an ideal arrangement for your personal growth.

Time to consider your own emotional health and detach. One step at a time though. Buy yourself a good do-it-yourself book and find someone else to help you with household problems. Shouldn't matter to him now who is in your house after 3 years.

Ask him to find someone else to help him with his books. Shouldn't need to be you.

I'm not sure why it would matter where you attend church at this point? Why didn't you go back to where you were going after the divorce? By staying where you're at, are you holding out false hope that it will appease your husband enough to take you back? After 3 years?

Do things for yourself. Find a hobby that will take you out of the house and meeting new people.

It still sounds as though you're running your life around the hope that there will be a reconciliation. (Not letting other men in your home to repair things, not switching back to your old church, not allowing another female to do his books...)

Looks like a possible pattern; what do you think?

Life2short.

First hugs. I know how difficult it can be. Second you are getting some excellent advice. Advice I plan to take to heart as well.

Your ex cheated and was abusive. Your child hates him. You have no children together. There is no reason you should still have contact with him. You need to cut ties or you won't ever move on or find any kind of closure. You are 3 yrs post divorce and you are not dating or doing anything to upset him because you are still holding on to the relationship. He was a cheater so you know that he is seeing other people for sure now. He is hanging around and preying on your emotions for him. You haven't resolved your feelings for him and I bet he knows it too. If he really cared for you he would let you move on with your life but he is not because he is the same selfish person he has always been.

Now I say this all with really alot of empathy because I too have been struggling with closure. I have been separated since Aug 08 and divorced since July 09. My ex has been similiar to yours in that he would hang around alot and since we have 2 children together that I have sole custody, I felt as a mom I should do all I could to have them spend time with their dad since he had no unsupervised visitation. But when he would come over he would spend more time with me and trying to get the relationship back then the kids. I try not to listen to the stuff he says but it gets really hard not to let things creep into the recesses of your brain and latch on. Just before Christmas he was saying things to me like, "Next Christmas I know we will be a family again and I will be buying you a new engagement ring." So although my head says no way, it stills pulls on the heart strings and really tears you up emotionally.

Fast forward to last week, when he lays the bomb on me that he has moved on and is living with a woman and her small child! It hurt horribly and I felt devastated all over again. But after alot of soul searching I have realised that I have no one but myself to blame because I allowed him to prey on my emotions. I kept myself from moving forward with my life because I was still holding on to some of my failed marriage. So I realised I have to set some strong boundaries. I have told him not to call me or talk to me about anything other than the kids. When he comes over to see the kids I plan to remove myself from the room and do chores around the house to limit my contact with him.

Life2short. Your name says it all. Life is too short to hold onto the past. You can move on and live a full life. It is time you started living it the way you want. Go back to your old church. Reconnect with family and friends. Do things for yourself that you didn't before and when you finally are content with your life and being on your own. Then you'll be ready to find someone new or maybe it will happen on it's own since you will no longer be giving off those, "I still love my ex vibes."

Stay strong!

L2S...

Thinking of you, remembering your time here...hope you'll come back and stay.

LA

Thanks everyone for the comments, advice, etc.
Has has asked me to come back and has asked me to work on our R. The sad thing is that every part of our relationship is marred with some issue, some bad memory, etc.
Maybe it's just the broken dreams or the unfulfilled dreams that we spoke of when we were first married.
I know I have some major issues that keep me entangled. A stronger person, an emotionally healthier person would have booted him out the door after the first affair. I never divulged it to anyone and just suffered in silence b/c I was so ashamed that that could happen during the first year of our marriage.
I want to walk away but I want to be loved. I know that this isn't healthy love and I know that no love at all is better than what I got from him for most of our marriage but I still have days when I long for what we had when it was good.
I don't want to grow old and alone but I can't make that break. I keep thinking what will it take and I don't know.
I want to be happy again but I am having a hard time moving forward.

L2S;

Hello. I read your post Man can I relate. I am not divorced, but I know what shame and fear are.

Why do you think shame and fear are so reoccuring in your life?

barbiecat,
I have some painful stuff in my past long before I met my XH. As I said on the original post I definitely have some issues of my own to deal with.
This thing with him is just gut wrenching. I second guess everything. One day I'm fine and know this is what I need to do (move on) and the next I am a mess, hoping he will call, wanting to call him.
We have been down this road so many times before and I know that one of these times will be the last and he will move on and the thought is devastating to me.
I am so afraid that he will finally meet someone and move on and I will be alone.
Geez, all this sounds so pathetic but, this is my reality.
I don't know why I am so attracted to someone that has treated me so poorly except to say that I have some baggage of my own.

I believe he had a date last night. It's just a hunch. Said he was having dinner with a guy friend and his girlfriend. The guy is separated and now seeing someone. He did not call later on although he said he would. He called me this morning and asked a gardening question. Then called back and asked if I wanted some breakfast from a local fast food place he stopped by. I said yes and he brought it over. Was dressed nicely and said was doing estimates for the company - maybe.
I'm sitting here thinking it would be so easy to just "say yes" and hop into bed but , what then? And what might I catch cause there's no way in h--l that he hasn't slept with someone in the last four years which is how long it's been since we have slept together.
I just feel so stupid and confused right now. Maybe if there was someone that was showing some interest in me I would not feel this way. And, how sad is that that I can't just be happy being alive, in good health, good job, good family, good church, good friends.
I am driving myself absolutely crazy over a man that has repeatedly cheated, has repeatedly lied, etc.
Grrrrr.

Not sure, but it seems that the repeated contacts with him is like picking a scab off an old wound. Each time you see him, you have to start healing all over again afterwards.

If you care about yourself, you may have to begin detaching by doing what I suggested before.

Have you been to counseling about this? Seems as though you haven't fully examined why you find someone like this attractive.

What would it take for you to gain some sort of closure?

Sooly,
I have been to more counselors than I care to remember. I have talked to family/friends till they are sick of the merry-go-round that comes out of my mouth!!!
I know what I need to do but, feel helpless in actually doing it. I met him when I was 38 years old and I am now 51. I have wasted a signficant amount of good years of my life and good years of my daughter's preteen and teen years messing with this man and yet I remain stuck.
I am well educated, financially secure, in good health, petite and in fairly good shape for 51, pretty - not beautiful but pretty or cute, have all my teeth!!!, am capable of taking care of myself and pretty handy in the house and yard, a field grade officer in the reserves, seem to be well liked by folks I work and associate with but...... when it comes to him I can't come in out of the rain!!
I don't know why I can't just say no and move on. I want to because I know deep down that we have both done things that we cannot forget or forgive or look past and there are things about him, and for him things about me, that irritate the crap out of each other. But, I imagine at some point all couples find those things that make us crazy whether it's capping the toothpaste or which way we put toilet paper on the roll.
I do know this: I don't want to be alone. Not that I can't be alone or that I can't take care of myself or pay for or ask for help with the things I'm incapable of doing around the house or with the vehicles but, I want someone to build a life with and spend the rest of my life with.
I am less than 10 years from retirement and my wish is to retire and travel. By then my daughter will have graduated from college and will be entrenched in living her life and I want to just hit the road and see anything I haven't seen before.

I did create an account on eharmony and got some matches but they were all over the country and I'm not interested in a pen pal.

I don't know what to do to finish this. My last counselor told me that for my sake I needed to be the one to move on and shut the door as opposed to him doing it and I believe that he will be the one and not me.

Sorry for the rambling book but, I almost wish I could just go away for about six months and get him out of my system in some way. Sad that I don't have the ability to do it on my own.

life2short, I hope this doesn't sound hurtful or brutal, but maybe he's already shut the door? It sounds like it to me.

Speaking only for myself now, I was where you are now when I met and married my stbxWW. I had been without companionship for so long that when The Leopard came into my life it was a dream come true.

Now I'm older and once again 'on the outside looking in.' But you know what? I refuse to let myself be brought down by her betrayal, miserable behavior and hurtful words. Although not a religious man, I choose to believe that God didn't bring me this far just to drop me. I will come out of this stronger, healthier and wiser.

You can, too.

Fred_in_VA,
Not brutal at all. You may be right and, unfortunately, that may be what it takes. I would prefer it not be that way - me lonely and begging and him off with a new woman.

I have to say that I have had so many opportunities, including recent ones, to resume a relationship with him and, even now, I truly believe that it would not be too late to do that but, to what end?

That's the rub. I have no doubt that I could "get him back" but, what do I have if I succeed? Someone I don't trust, someone whose children I don't really like and someone whose life is filled with drama that I don't need.

So why do I keep on with this? That's the part that's the worst of all. I know deep down that I don't really want him in my life because I haven't put him back there but could if I wanted to.

Someone recently said that there won't be anyone else in my life until I shut the door and move on. My problem is shutting the door and keeping it shut.

life2short, in many ways you remind me of myself (except that I don't think I could "get her back" if I wanted to). There's nothing healthy in having her back; there is already too much baggage there without the additional trust and betrayal issues. The feelings I have are, I think, actually my brain trying to heal itself.

In a meeting a few weeks ago I said that I had been emotionally brutalized and psychologically battered. Just like physical injuries, time is needed to heal the wounds. I still wake up and the first thing on my mind is her. I don't know why -- I don't remember my dreams, so I can't figure out why she's still "renting space" in my head.

But every time I feel triggered, I get just a little stronger. "NO!" I say to myself (sometimes even aloud!) And I find myself thinking of things that I would not want back in my life: the massive debt, her inability to parent her children, and now the distrust and wondering: is she doing it again?

There are too many people telling me that I will survive, that I will get through this, and that better days are ahead for me to imagine that they are all wrong and that my happy days and life are over.

One day at a time, they say. Even when I hate it, there is no other way.

Fred_in_VA,
You are apparently much more emotionally healthy than I am. I imagine my comment about being able to get my XH back if I wanted to came across as bragging and I didn't mean for it to. I just meant that we have had multiple conversations over the last 4 years about getting back together and the last one was just a few weeks ago.
I'm not at all happy with where I am because I'm not really anywhere. I'm legally divorced but not emotionally divorced. I'm not married yet very emotionally tied to my XH.
I don't go to my old church so as not to hurt or anger him (yet he talks to OW's daughter). I have some thoughts that there may be something going on w/one of his clients right now. Just things that don't add up and she always is brought up in just about every conversation we have.
I don't trust him sitting two feet away from me and I don't know how I could trust him out of my sight. I know deep down that our marriage would never really work and that apart for us is best but there are times (like this morning) that I have real meltdowns and miss him so much.
I shared so much of myself with him that I have never shared w/anyone. Of course he strategically used that to his advantage during fights!!
I want a healthy relationship, only I'm not healthy myself and would probably not attract someone who is.
I wish there was a pill or a magic solution that would instantaneously "heal" me but there isn't.
I should be so much farther down the road of healing than what I am and I am the only one that can take me down that road.
I feel like I've wasted so much of my life that I will never get back. I just knew that he was the one. I was in church, living as I should and his cousin (who was dating my niece) introduced us. There was an instantaneous ease where him being around my DD was concerned b/c of the connection. We liked so much of the same things, same weird foods, same ideas about money, etc. (or so I thought).
There's just such a deep ache in my heart for what might have been but can never be.
I've heard it said before that death is so much easier than divorce and I understand that now. A friend at work lost her fiance unexpectedly about a month before Christmas. Her pain is so real but, she doesn't have to see him or wonder where he is or who he is with. She doesn't have to pass him on the road or want to be with him but can't b/c of all that has happened. Death is final and there's no going back. With divorce, you live with the would've/could've/should'ves.

Life2short, I wish I had a magic potion or spell that could "cure" you and make you whole again. I do not. All I have are words of encouragement and hope.

In a way it's ironic. You are where I was seven years ago. Age-wise, and emotionally. At 52 I thought I was never going to find "someone." I had spent the previous 12 years single, getting my life and career together, and working on being the best person I could be. I frequently wondered why I saw others pair up but never me. I never seemed to attract women I was attracted to, and vice versa.

Just when I thought I'd had the one shot in life, along came the woman with whom I would fall in love, who loved me, and we became in her words, "each others' best champions." Not seven years later she broke my heart and here I am.

What's different now is that I have learned I *wasn't* the bad guy. It wasn't my fault she lowered her boundaries and standards. I'm still the person I was before she ripped my heart out. But she only wounded me, she did not kill me.

I am damn well determined to pick up and live my life again. One of the things I managed to do in the 12 year "drought" I lived was to make a pretty good life for myself. I gave up the deadly vices (drinking, smoking), became healthy, focused on my career, became responsible, and did a lot of things to enrich my life. I did it once and I can do it again.

The one thing I came very close to doing is losing myself in someone else. Is that where you are? I allowed myself to not only ignore the warning signs that were right in front of me, but I also put aside my own emotional needs and became a "vehicle" for her pursuits and desires. If that's co-dependency, then I became the poster child for it!

I didn't want it to work out this way. Oh, how I cried. I lost weight on the "infidelity diet." I still don't sleep as well as I used to (I named my story very appropriately). But I'm alive. And already I'm finding that life doesn't care whether I'm happy or not, whether I participate or not. It's going to go on one way or the other.

My life is still good. I'm very healthy for my age (the back problem is my only concern) - I'm ramping up to run my eighth marathon this year - My bills are paid and everything on the outside hasn't changed. I refuse to let this ruin my inside.

OK, I'm rambling. I apologize. My point was that happiness is an inside job. If someone has the power over me to make me happy or sad then I GAVE THEM THAT POWER. On another thread today I wrote one of the affirmations I use to remind myself of the after-effects of this disaster:

She gave up more to be with him than I lost.

She and I both have to live that.

L2S,
I think you've already answered your own questions. I wonder why it is so easy to see in others what is hard to see when you're in it? Maybe it's denial. You are wanting something that you know isn't good for you. I'm sorry you've been to so many counselors and it hasn't helped you but you haven't outgrown the need for help, please get some. If not for yourself, for your daughter...she needs to see a healthy strong mom who makes positive choices, not one that is destroying herself...and you are. I empathize with you, but empathy isn't what you need...a swift boot in the right direction is.
Believe in yourself and make only choices that are GOOD for you, starting today.
Kay

Kaycstamper,
You are right - but of course you know that.
I think I keep holding out hope that something will change to make me change my opinion of the situation. At this point, I just don't see it. There's still way too much drama, there's still lies about the affairs, there's still massive debt that he keeps taking on for his grown children - and I mean massive - so massive that if he lost his business he would lose everything.

This limbo life I'm living is just really depressing. I can be so good for only so long and then I start slipping backward into the muck that was our marriage.

I want to move on and move forward and close doors but, I just can't seem to do it, in part b/c of my feelings for him and in part b/c of how sorry I feel for him but, I know that that is a part of the hold and a part of the problem.

Sorry, feeling blue and rambling.

Well, an interesting day yesterday. My XH and I had dinner together. He told me that he had been lying and that he had been "talking" to someone - by that he meant taking to lunch, text messages, phone conversations and she spent the night at his house one night b/c she showed up drunk and crying after leaving a party - but nothing happened.
He said that he was on the verge of "dating" her - what was all the above - not sure but, he caught her in a couple of lies so ended it.
Do I believe all that - no - but I want to.
So, here I am pining away wanting what we had, wanting to think we could work through the stack of issues and reconcile and not seeing or talking to anyone or trying to put myself out there to be asked out - and believing him - and he's out there dating and lying about it.
So, all of you that know my history and have read my posts, how do I - and I mean my needy, twisted self!!! - go on from here? I'm in a really bad place right now and don't want to live here anymore.

Stop seeing/talking with your ex. It's a simple as that.

Life --

You remind me of my teenage daughter.

She was in a horribly toxic relationship and simply could not break the connection.

I would tell her that if she could go 2 weeks without contact, then the next 2 weeks, then before long she would stop pining for him. What actually happened is that he started dating someone else, she found out -- they had yet another drama filled argument about it. But FINALLY they ceased contact.

I can promise you that you will never be happy with your XH.
I remember well your posts about him.

You can wish for the good days, but you have to face the fact that they are over and can't come back. There has been too much damage. You can't have what you had before.

For your own sake. Stop trying to make this work.
You are missing out on what you COULD have.....

L2S,

Exactly what your name says, Life's Too Short. Stop wasting time pining for a man who knows he can come back to you anytime, doesn't seem like he's remorseful even. And is playing yo-yo with you. Here's the boot: you let yourself be his yo-yo. And, you know he's already shopping around for a new toy. Stop wasting time, L, you haven't got a reason to want him! He's not committed to you anymore.

That someone, is going to be You. You are going to show the hurt, afraid, lonely You interest. You are going to mend You. Make new friends: join an interest group and surround yourself with people. Learn a new trick, get good at a hobby, anything!

When my cheating xH split, I followed MB rules, no contact. It was difficult at first, he came back often and we had SF. But when the divorce papers were signed, I knew he may have other interests elsewhere, I bolted him out. I wasn't going to let him shave at my already low self esteem. I participated in two interest groups and made a new group of friends to be around with. I was on MB everyday. I was a mess, so I didn't bother with dating: men can tell you are emotionally unstable anyway, I wanted my dignity and self esteem back first.

With my new friends, I learnt photography, I went on photo trips and by the end of the first year, I had three beautiful photographs for our group exhibition. That was quite an achievement for me: a first timer at photography. I hung out with them so much, they took me under their wing like brothers. I lost a H, but gained 100 good friends who care about me. The second and third year, I went hiking: did lots of adventure sports. End of third year, I climbed a mountain. The highest in my region. Last year, I started on my masters program. Do I look back at my marriage? Yes. I do. I look back and I say I wasted time waiting for the man to love me properly. I wasted time listening to those lies. I wasted time wanting to hear what'll fix my broken heart.

You said you wish to travel after retirement. What's stopping you from doing it now? The years after my divorce were the years I travelled most. Oh, I didn't have money for fancy places like Europe. I travelled locally with my photography and hiking friends. I learnt how lovely it is to have company, to sleep amongst groups of people: we slept in dorms, in tents and I smile thinking of the nocturnal orchestra of snores. We went to volcanoes, camped deep in the jungle, saw wild animals at night, learnt survival skills, fell deep into the river, had a car accident, took the 4wd out to nowhere and looked at stars... I met the national paralympics team and saw how their disability didn't stop them from doing great things, I worked with the deaf and realise their lives will always be at a disadvantaged position... I did many things that I wouldn't have imagined doing. I wouldn't exchange the years after divorce for anything, L! I had so much fun! Being single and able to make decisions at a spur, not having to consult x gave me my life back. X wouldn't have done all those things with me. He would be jealous, yes, but would never go on an adventure with me. I do think of what my ex has done in those years too: probably squandered more money that he doesn't have, sleeping around... I don't want to be the wife at the losing end. You know, unless something devastating hit these cheaters, they will never come around. They will always deceive themselves into thinking it's ok, everyone does it, I know I can just sweet talk her(you) with an apology and get away with it.

One of the things that stopped me from going back to my ex was the memory of how my parents scrimped and saved to give me a good university education. They sacrificed so I can have a good life as an adult. I look at all the blessings I have and know God loves me, the sun shines everyday even though I am miserable so things can't be that bad. I can't bear the thought of me being in a relationship where someone else treated me so poorly, so I choose to step out of the relationship. He can't treat you poorly if you are not there. Wanting to hear ILYs means giving him control, power over you. You take that power back. You owe yourself to be treated well. You do just that. You have the means to do it.

As for being alone in the future, I think about that too. But I can't control the future. I can control the now and what I want to do now. So I make the best of now. I have lonely days now too, but they are not miserable days and they don't last long at all. If I am alone in the future, at least I have lived a life worth telling. I will continue to chart different courses in my life. I found my mentors amongst my new friends and they are in their 70s. I say to myself, when I am in my 70s, I want to be like them, healthy, happy, wise, with stories to tell. And also: you do it because you want to be good example to your kids.

L, close the door. Bolt it and throw away the keys. We'll be here to help you through those lonely, angry, desperate days. But there's something I can guarantee you: it will not be the end of your life. It will be the beginning of your journey to loving and discovering yourself. You know you are a good you. You said so in your post; teeth and all God only gave you a small hurdle. Come on, jump, you can do it.

Okay. Bring out the 2x4s, railroad ties, torches........

I am still in contact with my X. I really haven't changed anything. I am very torn because of my faith. As a Christian I am to forgive and I know that God has restored many broken relationships. There are many success stories here on MB.

So, my question is why could my R not be restored? Is there a way to rebuild trust? If these things are possible, what would I see my XH doing to rebuild that faith and trust?

Please help me with this even if you have to post the same things you have already posted. I don't have anyone else I can talk to about this and I really need help sorting through this. Please don't give up on me.

Don't use your faith as an excuse to allow yourself to be abused. That isn't faith and it isn't what God wants. Sure, if you were raped God would want you to forgive the rapist, but he wouldn't want you to go out on a date with him in a secluded park after you've been drinking.

Forgiveness is letting go of the anger and hurt that you feel for your ex. It doesn't mean restoration. Forgiveness is for YOU not for your ex. Forgiveness frees you.

I'll say again: Forgiveness is NOT restoration. It is NOT making everything as it once was.

Sure, God wants people to stay married. Sure God wants you to forgive. But you are his beautiful daughter. In you is an element of the divine, an element of Him. He doesn't want that abused. He doesn't want that element of divinity within you tortured by some manipulative twisting of his Word.


Yes, it can be. But the way is straight and narrow. You must remember that you are a daughter of a heavenly being. You have intrinsic value and worth. By realizing this you will recognize that you MUST set the bar for recovery VERY high. So high - that your ex may not be able to reach it.

He will need to engage in treatment programs for his angry and physically abusive behavior.
He will have to willingly and eagerly commit to the Marriage Builders program. No buts, no "I like it x way". No reservations. No holding anything back. He needs to be jumping all over himself to do ALL of MB.
He must commit to a program of complete and radical honesty FOR LIFE and be eager to do so. All emails, all texts, are open for your view. He has a GPS on his person/ car at all times. He calls you whenever he gets someplace and when he leaves. He tells you about all his conversations. He removes any and all female friends. He is never alone with a woman, ever. The key is he must be WILLING AND EAGER to do this.

In order for this marriage to be repaired he must show true and sincere repentance. Read Psalms 51. That is the attitude of a truly repentant sinner. That is the attitude of someone willing to make the changes necessary for a good marriage after they have sinned so egregiously against it. Particularly notice:


His heart should break for what he has done to you.

Until he is to that point - there is no hope of recovery. You must protect yourself - as a daughter of a God who loves you - from his abuse.

Vibrissa. Thank you for the post. I need to take some time and really digest all that you've said and read Psalms 51.
He has never been radically honest with me. Even now, he gets multiple texts when we are together. Sometimes he will say who the texts are from and sometimes he says nothing. It's those times that I wonder who sent the text.
I still don't trust him when we are apart (or together when he's not honest about the phone).
There are times when I think back on all that has happened and I believe there is no chance for us. Then, I think about having to start over (I don't want to be alone) and I am hesitant about going through my past w/someone new.
I really want to move on but something holds me back. Then, I start to wonder if I'm not moving on b/c it is God's will for us to get back together.
I'm really mixed up.

L2S, Maybe it's God's will that you two get back together, but there's a BIG obstacle in the way--God gave each one of us free will, and for any relationship to work, both people need to be engaged in the relationship to approximately the same level. So far, your H has not demonstrated that he wants the kind of marital relationship you want. In each of his actions, he's making a choice.

In my own personal experience, God is willing to work miracles, but not when it impeeds our own growth. Sometimes, for our own good, God refuses to act. We must act first.

So, it may be the case, that God wants you to take advantage of this "growth opportunity." I call the really bad times "growth opportunities" because I noticed how much I grow in character, compassion, understanding, and fortitude during the really awful times.

I'm starting over AGAIN!!!!!! I'm not pleased about it. But, it's not so bad. Sure, being alone is lonely sometimes. Other times, it's wonderful to be in complete control and only answer to yourself. (I find this is when Mike's ghost pops up to knock me down a few pegs. LOL)

Plus, you have to really ask yourself if you are alone. For almost every one of us, the answer is no. We have friends and family to help us enjoy life. And we have God when everyone else fails us. Not being in a romantic relationship can be lonely, but it's not all that bad. It sure as heck beats being in a bad romantic relationship, and there's always the possiblity of finding someone who is a good mate.

Thanks. I know exactly what you mean. I absolutely hate being the 5th wheel whenever we go somewhere together as a family: my sister & brother-in-law, my niece and her husband, my daughter, my niece's daughter and ME. I'm the only adult alone and it really bites. But, when one of the spouses is being a butt, it's so nice to say "see you later" or quietly thank God that I'm no longer on the receiving end of THAT.

Then, there are times when I want someone around and there's no one. I do lean on my XH, and he on me, when it comes to doing things around the house, paperwork or someone to go to eat or ride bikes with.

I have very conflicting thoughts when it comes to my XH. There's so much that occurred during our marriage and separation that I don't ever want a repeat of. Then, there ar times when I think taht myabe we haven't moved on for a reason.

I just don't know and I drive myself crazy with the uncertaintly. I'm not marrried but not divorced either. I know that I don't want the R that we had and I'm not certain taht we can work through all our stuff in order to have the R I want.

You know... Maybe it's time to try Match.com. It's got a lot more people than eharmony. You can create a profile, then hide it. Search for men you like within a driving distance and contact them. Go out on some dates. Go out on a whole bunch of first dates, even with men you might not usually. You need someone you can call instead of your X when you want to grab a bite to eat.

Also, you may want to check out MeetUp.com. This site is not a dating site but is a place to find groups of people with similar interests. This would be a great place to find male friends to have dinner with or trade help around the house. You know, he fixes the gate and you sew the buttons back on, or vice versa.

I think once you have other men to compare your X to, you'll start to get a better feel for what you should be doing. Plus, once you're less emotionally dependent on him, you'll be able to make the choice without being clouded by fear.

I'm sorry, but for you to put up with all you have from your ex has left him with absolutely ZERO respect for you at this point. You have got to love and respect yourself before you can expect anyone to love and respect you. You are not being very kind or loving to yourself by allowing yourself to go trough all of this for this length of time.

God has a great plan for your life, but you are STUCK in a place that will not allow that plan to come about. God wants to give you a fresh beginning but this will only happen when you stop looking back. You have had time to grieve your loss, and now it's time to trust God and move on and allow God to do a new thing in your life.

No one knows if God's plan includes your ex or not. However, you have got to trust God and have some self-respect and realize God does not want you to stay trapped in a hopeless situation.

You need to work to find out why you have thought so little of yourself that you would settle for this in your life. Rediscover the amazing woman that you are and start to live life again!!!

You cannot change the past but you can decide to step forward into the future God has for you. A closed door simply means that God has something better in store in your life, but you have to allow Him to show you what it is!!!

It's funny that Sidney posted this because this morning I was thinking about the story of Lot's wife looking back and turning into a pillar of salt. I hadn't thought of it in context of L2S's story, only in context of my own. But, it applies here too.

Yes, we're leaving a lot of really good stuff behind us, stuff that made life feel a little more comfortable. BUT, there's something ahead that we need ot get to, and if we hang onto the past, we'll be stuck, paralyzed.

Wow, Sidney's post hit me dead on target!

I am now six weeks out from the final decree. So much has changed in my life since the ex-wife firebombed our marriage. Not one aspect of my life has been left untouched. I have had no choice but to accept the fact that God is in charge and I am not.

My income and health insurance are gone. Since I have to focus on finding work so I can pay my bills and take care of my health concerns, I'm actually glad that I don't have a relationship to occupy myself with right now.

Never having been an overly religious person, I now find myself attending church, going to a Bible study, and trying to learn what God wants me to do. I'm terrible at trying to run my own life!

I'd hate to think where I'd be if I allowed myself to get stuck. I've read too many stories here of people who can't seem to find a way to get clear. That could have been me too, if I'd let it. Don't YOU let it, either!

Yes, the uncertain future is scary, but it can't be any worse than staying in a rut that's no better than a grave...

Fred, I have noticed a difference in your posts (can see your faith building) which is great.

I honestly don't know how anyone gets through such a horrendously painful thing as an affair and/or divorce without knowing, relying on and trusting God.

Thanks to all of you for sticking with me. Fred, part of the issue I am dealing with now is the fact that my XH no longer has health insurance as he was insured through me. He has had some major back and neck surgeries, needs another one but can't afford it or find anyone to insure him, and I feel so guilty over it.
It isn't my fault that he doesn't have insurance yet I hurt for him that he doesn't have it. I do know that his actions are to blame for it yet I know that he could have insurance if we remarried.
I know that sounds crazy, but I sometimes think it.
There are times when I just want to close the door and have him go away and then there are times when I think I would die if that happened.
I find myself getting emotionally close to him and we start enjoying each other's company and then, all of a sudden, something happens that sets us back to square one again.
I realize just how stupid this whole thing sounds. I know it's stupid yet I can't seem to make that break.

L2S, I think what you're describing is the difference between you and your XH: You have a conscience and he does not.

Yesterday, at an A.A. Step meeting, we were discussing the 4th Step: "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves." One of the aspects of doing this inventory is to identify "what was my part in it [whatever the issue is]?"

When my ex-wife left our marriage and committed the adultery that wound up ending it, I had to work a 4th Step. I wrote three typewritten pages on what my part in the dissolution of our marriage was. The reason I did this was because I have a conscience. She does not.

I'm fine with myself and what I did, what I didn't do, and what I could have done that I didn't. I wasn't perfect in the marriage, but I didn't have an affair. Because I have a conscience.

Today, the bill collectors still call for her. She left the house WE picked out, and is living in an apartment she can barely afford. She bought a used car since I kept the one I bought for her. I don't know if she has health insurance, but I do know she has no credit.

I don't feel guilty about that at all. Even though I have a conscience. Because I know what my part in it was, and what her part was. I'm good with that.

Good morning to everyone! Well, another eventful night.
My XH is doing some renovation work at my house. The house is all torn up so he suggested that I stay at his house. I KNEW it was a bad idea, but I've always had a hard time saying "no" so I went along. We watched TV for a while and, when it was time to go to bed, he said he would sleep in the guest room and I could take his room.
I know how hard sleep is for him and how he hurts post surgeries so I said "no, I'll take the other room or sleep on the couch."
Well, long story short I made him mad. So, now we're back to "it will never work", "I will finish your house but we need to move on", and then of course he went back to our marriage when his kids were living with us and all that I did wrong and how I treated them.
Then, we went to the fact that we want different things out of life, especially SF, and that we need to find other people that will meet our needs.
I am so, so confused this morning.
I want to move on but I can't seem to make that final break.
Now, he is saying (this has happened multiple times before) that he is moving to another state where his cousins are to find a job with benefits and start his life over where no one knows him.

Thoughts? Thanks for hanging in there with me as I cannot discuss this with anyone else.

I think I'm having a panic attack. He told me earlier today that he had a meeting and might not be able to talk but could text if necessary. Got a text earlier that he would call me when he could.
He called earlier to say he would not be home until around 9:30 pm and that he might have found a job and that if he got it he would have to move. He wouldn't say where to but that he would tell me later.
He really needs a job with benefits so he will have health insurance as he has multiple health issues that need to be addressed. If we were married he would have insurance but ........
I should be happy for him and in some ways I am but I know that if he leaves I will be devastated.
I am so absolutely miserable. I want what seems to not be possible and that is to have him and my family, too. I have to choose and that choice is being forced by my family.
I have to say that he has tried to make amends but some members of my family have not responded. I know that my family loves me and wants what they believe is the best for me and I know they believe he is not good for me. I do understand all that and I understand that they have good reason for feeling that way. There are also many times that he will say or do something and I think "that's one of the reasons we aren't together now."
I wish I didn't care. I wish I had closed the door when the first affair occurred so many years ago.
I wish, I wish, I wish.
I imagine many of you will tell me that this is the best thing that could happen, and there are times that I would agree, but right now I feel like my heart is being ripped open. This is totally my fault because I allowed myself to stay engaged as opposed to divorcing and moving on so I am getting what I deserve.
I know this is rambling and I know that many of you may be thinking "what an idiot", but it is how I feel. Again, I have lingering thoughts about whether there is a chance that we could work things out.
I have to say as well that it always seems that every time I am getting ready to leave for an extended period of time something like this comes up and I go away feeling crushed and sad and miserable.
Please continue to help me through this as I have no one to talk to about how I feel.

L2S, Tell me if I'm wrong but I also hear a lot of fear in your post. "What will I do without him?"

I do think this may turn out to be the best thing for you. That doesn't change that fact that you are pretty unhappyr right now.

All I can tell you is that this too shall pass. A new normal will begin to take shape and soon you'll be comfortable with it.

Also, another thought. There's a man from my past who lived in my heart for very many years even though he was really not good for or to me. In the last 24 years, we've grown into the people we were meant to be, and surprise! We are completely incompatible. LOL. But he'll always have a place in my heart, and if he needed anything, I'd be there within reason. Of course, the same courtesy probably wouldn't be extended to me.

I'm telling you this because this may be the role your exhusband will play in your life. Best not to talk to him, no contact. But, you'll always care a little bit.

The thought of him NOT in my life is very painful even though I can admit at some deep level that I know that we probably aren't good for each other.
I know that he needs to find a job that has benefits and that his health is an issue. Where he went today to interview for a job I don't know AND I don't know why it is such a secret.
I do know that if I did exactly what he did today he would get mad and probably not speak to me. Why the secrecy? I don't get that.
He has threatened to go a few states away to look for a job and has been in contact with a couple of cousins there that have said they would help him get a job in the industry they are in.
This is also a place where he has said in the past that he would not mind moving to.
The last counselor I went to said that it would be best for me if I was the one that closed the door and walked away but I just haven't been able to do that. I've made strides toward that in the past only to find myself being pulled back into the relationship and ffeelings then begin to surface again.
I am stuck. I can't move forward and I can't move backward. I dont' want to be here and I know I'm the only one that can change that. I'm just scared of making a mistake one way or the other so I don't do anything.

L2S, You need to shut the door.

Is it really secrecy when it isn't your business where he's interviewing? And just because he would get mad if you behaved in a similar manner doesn't mean he's acting wrongly.

One thing I've found out is that relationships have a way of working themselves out. People who are lifers will resurface. In other words, if you end THIS relationship with your ex, and yet you two are very compatible and are supposed to be together, then your paths will cross again.

But someone has to stop this crazy dance. It could be that he will do it. Or it could be you.

Greengables,
You are right. I have no right to know where he is or what he is doing. But, we do this dance. We talk about forgiveness and we talk about what it would take for us to get past the past and rebuild a relationship. So, when he knows where I am and what I am doing, it hurts and makes me wonder when he is not as forthright about his activities.
Right now, he is talking about moving away to take a job with benefits. Now, we've been at this juncture so many times I can't even remember them all. Sadly though there will come a time at some point where we truly are at a crossroads and one of us will choose to go in the opposite direction. One of us will shut the door.
Sitting here now, typing this, I have a huge lump in my throat and my eyes are burning from the tears unshed.
Is there more to life than this?
I really wonder sometimes. I know so many women, seemingly so many more women than men, that divorce and remain single. I don't want to be alone.
I want the man I dated, not even the man I married because he quickly changed and was not at all the man I dated.
So, so confused and torn and frustrated with myself.

There's your trouble, l2s. You remind me of someone struggling to get out of the undertow. It's not easy, to be sure, but once you're on shore you're safe.

Once you're on shore, you can assess this whole business of being "alone." I suspect you don't want to be alone, because you've never been alone.

You might surprise yourself.

opt

I am new to all of this and this might be a naive thought, but it might help to force yourself, make a conscious effort every day to replay in your mind again and again the ugly moments of your relationship. Think of them when you feel weak, when you are with him. Picture his angry face, replay his angry words. Make a decision NOT to replay the nice moments, only the bad ones - the ones when you wanted to be as far from him as possible.

Well, these last couple of weeks have been interesting. I have two jobs (one part-time) and for the part-time job I had to go several states away for a two week school. My XH rode up with me (I drove) and then he flew back.
We got along well and all was good.
During the last couple of weeks he has continually made comments suggesting that I was seeing someone here!! There are 18 in my class and 3 instructors. Everyone is married except me, another female and 1 of the instructors who is engaged.
I have been working like crazy - it's a master's level course. In two weeks I've eaten in my room every day except two. I have hours of reading to do each night or writing assignments.
I feel like the most stupid person in the world. I have wasted so many good years of my life on this man that are forever gone.
I listened as my classmates talked about their kids, their spouses, their lives. Here I sit uncertain and unsettled and I get so angry with ME because I'm the only one that can change it.
He's talking again of moving away to where his cousins are. He really does need a job with benefits - insurance - as he has many health problems.
He has said over the years since our divorce (2007) that we should get married in secret and continue to live our separate lives. There are times I think he's not kidding and that this would answer his problem of insurance. Of course, this is something I would not do.
I've come to the conclusion that I can have him in my life or I can have my family. When he and I are together a lot I lose continuity with my family because I can't take him around them. When I am around them alot I lose continuity with him. They don't want anything to do w/him b/c of all the stuff that they know he did. And, they know a lot b/c of the people he did it around coming back and telling them but I can't tell him that. He continually accuses me of being the person that destroyed his R w/my family because of me running my mouth and b/c of all the lies he told. What he doesn't know is that his own cousin told me and my family much of what happened and w/o him doing so, I probably would never have found out some of what he did. But, I can't tell him that b/c his cousin is married to my niece and I cannot do anything to jeopardize that R. What a mess.

He also has a habit of making comments that I believe are intended to make me feel bad. As an example, my class and instructors went out to eat the other night. This is very common practice with this job. I told him I was going and his comment was" That's good". I wish I could write how he sounded. It wasn't good. It was snide and snippy. If he goes out with a friend or does something with one of his kids, I don't say those kinds of things to him. I think it's good when he gets out and takes time to relax.

I know I'm rambling and I'm talking to myself as much as to any of you. I'm frustrated that I have allowed myself to remain trapped in this odd relationship. I know that I'm the only one that can make the change and pray that I can do so soon. No good will come of this continuing.

What is stopping you from cutting off contact?

Please tell us what you are getting out of all this contact with him?

If he is toxic and from what you posted he is, why would you put your relationship with your family on the line for some one in your life that will and is giving you pain.


He seems to be the only one benefiting with contact with you, you on the other hand sound defeated and unsure of yourself, so why are you continuing contact with him?

Reading your thread right after my ex-husband came to visit me last month helped me to see that if I didn't start making different choices, I would end up years down the road in the same predicament as you - still dangling by the strings that my ex pulls. I couldn't stomach that thought. You have helped me see that my attachment to my husband is toxic and destructive to me because he is ultimately only concerned with himself. I want better for my future and I am willing to let go of this destructive obsession with my fantasy version of the past.

I hope you see it too someday. You are wasting your time and your life with this man.

life2short, this is my first time posting to you.

What I noticed first was your MB name. Think about LIFE 2 SHORT.

I like you still have feelings for my XH. I am in my 50s like you. I have a DD like you that has no relation with her Dad. We are both Christians.

The difference is that I will not settle to just be with XH again. What I want is a wonderful MB M with God. I have learned so much on this board and some of it was painful (have the 2x4's still printed on my backside)

You do not need to accept crumbs and understand this -- as long as you are ready to accept so little that is what you will receive.

Want your M, set the boundaries high. If he talks about getting back together give him a list of what YOU want...

Amends with your family
Complete transparency
Honesty

Set the bar high. If he is the man that God intended you to have he will work hard to meet your ENs. If not then that is your answer.

You are so worried about him leaving you that you have forgotten what YOU want.

My XH is having his Affairage in October, he is unrependant and blames me for all of his troubles. I am trying to detach myself from him and his toxic ways. He has to reach his own bottom.

You started this thread in January and nothing has changed one iota. Only you can change yourself.

Blessings

Greengables,
Nothing is stopping me from no contact except me. I allow myself to remain hooked. I allow myself to get sucked into his drama and, because I do still care, I worry about him and his health issues. He has tried to get insurance but can't find anyone to cover him b/c of preexisting conditions. I know this for a fact b/c I've helped him with it.
Stillstanding2,
Glad I could help someone even if I can't seem to help myself.
Hope3343,
I have to say that he did attempt to make amends w/my sister a couple of years ago. He called her and left a message for her to call him back but she did not. He has made contact w/his cousnin and my niece. He has talked to my brother-in-law a couple of times in passing in stores. They don't want anything to do w/him. They don't believe he has changed and the As are a pattern w/him and they don't think he will ever change. He is now 46.
My DD wants nothing to do w/him. He adopted her when she was 7. Her dad, my first XH, left and never looked back - no contact w/my D. She is much smarter than me!!
You said for him to make amends. Well, how does he do that when the folks that are a priority to me won't listen?
It's a really big mess. I don't want to live like this and don't want the life we had. I do want something better and know I just need to close the door and be content with my life as it is.

So why do you allow yourself to remain hooked?
What keeps you still caring about a man that everyone else you value believes is toxic?

Greengables,
I suppose the biggest reason is because I have no one else in my life. I am often content to be alone, however, I don't want to be alone long term. I also have the need to be loved and to be told that I am loved by someone other than my family. Yes, I know that the love he has shown me is not good, but in a twisted way he still fills that need.
I want a healthy relationship but I am not healthy myself.
He is not totally to blame for everything that went wrong w/our marriage. I had my part to play as well yet I don't accept his premise that he did what he did b/c of things I did. If that is true, then the affairs are all my fault - I drove him to it.
I know that I need to detach myself, shut the door, deadbolt it and nail it shut. I just am having a really hard time doing that.
I think maybe I would not have as hard a time as I am having if I did have someone else though others have commented that no one else will come near me as long as I am unavailable - still talking to XH.

L2S, Maybe instead of filling your life with a man, you could fill it with friends for a while. Friends are really important. It's true, you can't have sex with them, and you don't get family committment from them, but otherwise, they can do everything a boyfriend can. Conversation, admiration, recreation, openess and honesty. Plus, they help fill time.

You need someone you can pick up and call when you're sad or lonely, or happy or excited. Actually, you need a bunch of someone's since they all have lives too.

I'm trying to re-establish some old female friendships. Going out to lunch next week. Need to reconnect with family.
XH has gone away to supposedly look for job in another state. He also is going to do some work at his cousin's house while there so not sure if the intent of the visit was one or the other or both.
Last night in church one of the things said was that God has so much better in store for us than we can imagine but sometimes we have to let go of what is in our hand in order to have the better. Easy to say - hard to do.
I'm really in turmoil right now. I haven't ever wanted to go back home yet I can't get past losing him. Then, I think, but what have I really lost?
I struggle with myself and my thoughts constantly.

"yet I can't get past losing him" you posted,

What exactly did he bring to your relationship?


Why do you think he is the only man that can give that to you?


Are you holding on to him because he is a safe bet (the whole know your enemy) and you are afraid of letting some one else in that might hurt you again?

swan's song:
What exactly did he bring to your relationship?
When we first started dating, he brought love and affection and affirmation. After that......... pain, frustration, hurt and fear.

Why do you think he is the only man that can give that to you?
I hope there is someone out there that can show me that love doesn't have to include pain, frustration, hurt and fear.

Are you holding on to him because he is a safe bet (the whole know your enemy) and you are afraid of letting some one else in that might hurt you again?
A great big YES. I'm holding on to what I know. He knows all the junk about me that I don't want to have to share with someone else. I opened myself up to him in ways I have to no one else and I regreted it deeply. He used the knowledge of my past hurts as weapons in future fights and discussions and he used them to inflict more pain and fear. He threatened to tell some of my past to others as a way to keep me in line.

Geez, I sure must sound like a pathetic loser to so many of you reading this. I can accurately verbalize who and what he is yet I can't seem to leave him alone and move on with my life.

Two, it's the FIRST sentence above that is keeping you in the relationship, not the second. I can imagine that was one of the lies he has persuaded you to believe.

You are NOT a pathetic loser, L2S. You're not a pathetic anything. You're thinking of jumping out of a plane and it's a long ways down. You're scared, that's normal. It's not pathetic.

Trust yourself. Your chute will be there when you need it.

opt

I suppose to an extent I do feel like a loser. This is my second marriage/divorce and I can't help but wonder why I seem to attract the wrong ones. What is it that I do that attracts men that aren't good for me?
I really, really, REALLY thought that this one was THE one. In church, we liked so many of the same things, we had so many similar goals - or so I thought.
There were warning flags though that I ignored because I was lonely and infatuated. Little did I know that those red flags were so huge and would bite me in the behind.
And now, I can't seem to walk away. We divorced, I bought a house but that's as far as I have gotten. Maybe the best thing would be for him to move away. If I can't break the cycle, him moving would force me to.

I thought my second husband was the one too. I completely understand how disappointed you are. The facts are the facts though. I ignored warning signs also - because I thought (convinced myself) that he was the ONE. I was lonely and infatuated also. I had a hard time walking away emotionally also - even after he left the COUNTRY! His moving won't force you to let go. You have to do that on your own - in your own heart. I prayed for help. I saw your thread. I prayed some more. I moved to a new town. I prayed some more. I stopped calling him. More prayer for help. I stopped emailing him. It got easier. Prayer gave me peace. I met people IRL and online that had similar experiences. Everyday is a little easier. When I want to call or email him, I call or email a friend - somebody that REALLY loves and cares for me. The urge passes if you replace your ex with other people.

Choose to live in the present. Accept reality. It is up to you. You can do this. One minute, hour, and day at a time - you can do this. Your life is formed by the choices that you make. Choose wisely.

stillstanding2,
You said that you saw my thread. Probably made you RUN AWAY!! Hope that something I posted helped you.

I have come to the sad conclusion that there is no chance for this R to ever work. There's:
no trust
no respect
no honor
no commitment
I would always fear another A and I question the ongoing R he has with some of the women that he has done work for. It just seems quite strange and I know that he would not tolerate in me the same type of R.
My next step is to figure out how to start closing the door, one inch at a time. I used to smoke and quit cold turkey. I know I need to do this cold turkey, too but, know that I won't be able to.
I have been praying and need to pray longer and more often. I want to close the door and move on with the rest of my life as I have spent too many years and too much of my time looking back.

This times 10 "The urge passes if you replace your ex with other people." --StillStanding. And to recap, you pick up the phone and call family and friends, not just another man.

L2S, You really need to practice some cognitive exercises. They have helped me amazingly. When I say to myself "Why me?" I then think about all the really good stuff in my life. I also remind myself about all the bad stuff that happens to others. The pity party ends pretty quickly then.

You probably would benefit from reframing every thought such as "You all must think I'm a loser." You can change this one to "Wow. They must see how deeply human I am." Or even "It sure takes courage on my part to tell people my weaknesses."
Here's the really cool thing about these exercises (aside from not breaking a sweat): You don't even have to believe them for them to start working!!!!! It's kind of a game you play with yourself in the beginning. And when you reframe a negative self thought like "Something is really wrong with me that I'm attracted to men who are bad for me" to "I've sure learned a lot and come a long way in my lifetime. Anyone who earns my love will be blessed by my hard-earned wisdom." When you say that, you may think immediately after "Oh, my word! What malarky!" THEN, you have to think "Yeah, but there's some truth there, and I'm really persistent."

Behavior and Thoughts affect each other. Change behavior and you change thoughts. Change thoughts and you change behavior. So, if you want to improve your life, the trick is figuring out whether it is most efficient and effective to change your thoughts first or your behavior first. I'm a thoughts person myself.

So, if you're having a problem putting things into action--like ending this mal-relationship--try getting at it from the other end.

Greengables and All,
I thank you so much for your insight and wisdom and for continuing to engage me in "conversation" as I seem unable to take the sage advice given.
My XH has always had the ability to twist words to make me doubt myself (and my sanity).
Right now, he's trying to make me believe that the reason my family and my D dislike him is because of lies I told them. I've wracked my brain for things I said that were untrue. I come up with nothing. He blames me for telling my family that he was involved with women that he denies being involved w/but his cousin is the one who knew and told.
I know deep down inside that a) this won't work as it never really did post marriage and b) this isn't really the life I want to live for whatever time I have left.
I just need to get my heart and my head on the same page.
I'm really not a stupid person but I act stupidly when it comes to him.

One minute he's saying he's going to move. The next, that he would like for us to remain friends after he starts dating. I can't be friends w/him b/c I have feelings. I don't see how folks do that.
I don't want to remain here in no man's land.

For any of you that have been on this type of rollercoaster ride post divorce, what did it finally take for you to close the door?

Whenever he and I "talk" I feel my head swelling to the point of explosion and I know my blood pressure must be through the roof.

Whenever we are around each other w/no pressure, I find myself falling for him all over again. But, the second reality sets in and there's a difference of opinion about something or we start "talking" about what it would take to fix our R, it goes south quickly.

He is OCD and some of it drives me crazy. Some of it makes sense like the handwashing and putting papertowels on bathroom door handles when you have to touch them and you're getting ready to eat. Some of it is just irritating.

I don't know why this is so blasted difficult but it is. It saps my energy and makes my head hurt and on and on and on.

Why do I keep on with this? I frustrate myself with it. And, I'm scared of choosing someone else like him in the future.

GGGGRRRRRRR.

For those of you, especially men, that have read my older posts preD plus recent posts, I would like to know your thoughts on the following:
1 - Has my XH continued to ask about us getting back together b/c he wants to resume a R and maybe remarriage or am I just a potential quick means to an end, that end being health insurance and help w/company plus I am easily manipulated?
2 - At his age (mid 40s) is it likely that he would stop having As and stop the questionable Rs with other women or just go underground with it?
3 - If he was truly sorry and repentent where the As are concerned, how would he act differently? What would I see that I am not seeing now?
4 - What are the warning signs that would tell me that there has been no change that could sustain a R?

I have my own opinions about the above but would like to hear from others, especially men, and women who have lived w/men like the one I have described.


I definitely have faults of my own - I wouldn't be sitting at the computer right now if I didn't b/c I would have a life!!!!!

Based on no one's knowledge and giving you merely my opinions...

Yes. In my opinion you're being played. You should stop allowing this right away.

Do you know why I called my ex-wife The Leopard? She's not the only one. At your H's age, what do you think?

Step back a bit and try to look at the situation dispassionately. What do you see? "As" is plural, not singular.

You know better than anyone. However, I remind you of the saying, "nothing changes if nothing changes."

Caveat Emptor.

Your thread did help me run away - FROM MY EX!!! You can do this. Start by ending contact for just one day. Then do it again. And again. Fill the loneliness with other people (and, no, not just another man). There are people that love me and want to help me. I let them. I love them back and return the favor of helping them too. I have the best friends in the world!! I didn't realize how wonderful my friends were until I stopped focusing on my ex and looked around me at all the people that truly love me. I am truly blessed.

You have not wasted your time. You are learning. You are growing. Some people take longer to figure stuff out and process the lessons that life wants to teach you. You know what you need to do - AND, YOU CAN DO IT.

L2S, You are dealing with a master manipulator. Manipulators become master manipulators once they recognize the efficacy of sometimes being swell people. They can often have a certain type of empathy that allows them know when to pour on the charm and when to go Mr. Hyde.

You've already pointed out that your X plays with at least 2 rule books. Also, he looks upon you as his property, cattel. Just because he doesn't want you to find someone else, doesn't mean he wants to be in a marriage relationship with you.

My guess is that your X has serious character flaws that may even be part of a personality disorder. Can he change? Yes, but only by going through fire. His life would have to crumble around him in order for him to have sufficient motivation to completely overhaul himself. This is unlikely to happen at all. It definitely won't happen if he has you around. He may change, but not for you, and I doubt very much you would ever reap the benefit of that change.

I know that sounds terribly harsh. It is. I could be wrong. But I don't think so.

And just in case I wasn't clear, you CANNOT believe a word out of this man's mouth. You also cannot believe his actions or his body language. He's a liar of the first order.

Every word Greengables says is the absolute truth. My (ex-)wife turned out to have Borderline Personality Disorder, and GG has pegged the way these people mold themselves and their behaviors to a "t."

They have gotten to the point where they can't help themselves. And because they don't believe they have a personality problem, they are often beyond the help of others. Professionals included.

I spent months studying personality disorders. I even consulted with a psychiatrist (at $150 an hour) and received an "unofficial" diagnosis of her. My knowledge has made it much easier for me to deal with the way she shattered our marriage and did so in such an abrupt and black-and-white fashion.

Consider GG's words carefully. None of us can make a diagnosis, but you have the evidence at hand that may be all you need to make a determination for yourself.

I've been taking a long hard look at XH and his circumstances over the last few weeks. I'm trying to be dispassionate about everything and looking at the situation from the perspective of "is this really what I want the rest of my life to look like".

The answer is "no".

Whenever I do ANYTHING that doesn't include him, his response is "well that's good", spoken in a sarcastic tone. But, whenever he visits a friend or makes a plan to take a trip (can only assume that what he says is true) I say "good for you. You work hard and need to take a break. Hope you have fun." I never get that.

He is deeply in debt due to doing things for his two mid 20s children. He is constantly bailing the son out of something. The son is 24, twice divorced (got both pregnant before marriage), so has two children by two women and now has girlfriend pregnant. I know this isn't my XH's fault but I know my life would constantly be affected by his son.

I'm trying to pull back and do things w/o him. Had lunch with couple of girlfriends yesterday and that was fun.

Off to work.

life2short,

I've been following your thread for a while now. I know you want to hold on to the hope that somehow you and your XWH can recover your marriage - but do you realize that you are doing the one thing that makes *certain* that will never happen?

Love can't exist without respect. This man has zero respect for you. Why? Because you don't require him to respect you.

He throws you crumbs and leftovers, and you eat them up and beg for more. This is a terribly cruel and disrespectful way to treat anyone, but you simply hang around and wait for more. This makes him look down at you with contempt. "See? L2S is weak. She is way far beneath me. I can take her or leave her - and I do, because she lets me."

I know you secretly believe that he keeps coming around because somehow he still loves you and wants to be with you. We are trying to tell you that that is NOT what this is.

He plays you and manipulates you and throws you crumbs because he enjoys seeing you dance to his tune and dangle at the end of his string. Why? Because it feeds his ego. He is still a player and a fence-sitter and you are just one more woman in his harem. This is a terrible way for you to be treated, but as long as you allow it he will never, ever stop.

YOU will have to put a stop to it.

How do you do that?

Plan B, L2S. Plan B. It ain't just for married folks anymore.

I have been legally divorced for a year and a half but in a solid, deep dark Plan B for over two years. It's the only way I can stomach the situation at all. I cannot imagine living as you are.

I would point out that in your own way you are as big a fence-sitter as your XWH, because you are behaving neither as a married person nor as a divorced person but trying to somehow live between both worlds. This never, ever works, as you have seen.

So. As I said: If you actually did want to have the slightest 1% chance of reconciling with XWH, your full-time plan would have to be Earning His Respect.

How do you do that?

With Plan B. Plan B would show him that you are neither helpless nor weak - and most of all, it would show him that you are NOT any man's toy and NOT any man's crumb-picker. Not any more.

I hope you will consider this. The way you are going now, you have zero hope of reconciling (because he will never respect you and you don't love or marry people you don't respect) and zero hope of moving on to a better life with someone else (because you are still dangling at the end of XWH's string and being his toy).

Plan B. It ain't just for married folks anymore.

Mulan,
I'm starting to accept the simple facts you stated above: he does not love me. He manipulates me.

I do believe your Plan B suggestion is probably the only hope I have of ending this cycle. He went to his DD's this past weekend (a few states away) and we seldom talked. When we did it was b/c he called me. He was usually in a bathroom or had to go to the vehicle to get something. I don't believe he was with a woman but was more that he didn't want his children - DS went as well - to hear him talking to me. Why? Maybe b/c he talks bad about me to them - we had a bad R - or b/c he's seeing someone and doesn't want them to tell her??? Who knows.

Was doing paperwork before he left and had questions about a home phone bill. Customer svc rep for the company talked me through logging into the website and looking at the phone bill. Hmmm... Lots of multi minute calls to two phone numbers from the same town. A few that were late night/early AM, i.e. 1:30 AM, etc.

No explanation from him, just a comment during an argument yesterday about how I scanned his phone bill for 12 minutes. He doesn't owe me an explanation as we are not married or in a R, but it goes against him telling me that he isn't seeing anyone. Just more corroborating evidence.

So, I'm beginning to see what I have refused to see all along: He hasn't changed. History is repeating itself.

Thanks everyone for hanging in there with me and being kind and honest enough to point out that he doesn't love me, he is not good for me and that I need to close this door and move forward in my life.

Everyone,
Please bear with me as I put in writing the things I see as they are helping me see the situation as it really is.
Point 1: My DD and I took a short trip this weekend. Just the two of us. If XH called and I did not answer I would get a text msg saying "hope I didn't interrupt anything...". If I ask what he meant he would say "Oh, just wanted to make sure you weren't busy" but what he really meant was "hope I didn't interrupt you in bed w/someone." He does this ALL THE TIME whenenver he cannot get me on the phone. His automatic assumption is that the reason I can't answer b/c I'm in bed w/a man.
Point 2: XH took a trip about 2 wks ago with his son, daughter and daughter's H a few states away. I did not bother him. He called me if he had time - and 99% of the time when he called he was in a bathroom or was "getting something from the car". I told him to have a great time and relax and enjoy himself.
When I took the trip over the weekend I got "Well, that's good. Ya'll have fun." in a sarcastic tone. He called me multiple times and then I got "the text" if I didn't answer.

He says he loves me and wants to make the R work -and that he loves my D - but then constantly accuses me of being a slut. That must be what he thinks b/c he is constantly accusing me of being w/someone wherever I go. Wonder if he accuses me b/c that's what he is doing? Hmmm.....

I'm getting ready to start a weekend school for 8 months (one weekend per month) so I know I'll hear the same and get the accusations that I'm seeing someone there.

He calls and offers to do things for me - pick up food and bring over or buy something I need as he is going to the store - and then, if I say no, he acts offended and says something like "You'll figure it out.".

Anyone that has been following this story and has experience with this type of thing, does he have a personality disorder of some type? I know I'm crazy - just wondering about him.

life - you are stuck in limbo.

He is your ex husband, for very good reason.

It doesn't matter if he has a personality disorder - it's none of your business now. You need to stop communicating with him. You're keeping yourself stuck in limbo.

R is impossible with this man because he wont do the work required to change.

Look at your name.

Now look at it again.

Life is TOO SHORT to waste it on someone who treats you this way - it's too short to keep making yourself crazy.

You need to Plan B him just so you can move on in your life. As you fill your life with things OTHER than him, eventually you'll STOP wondering about him. He will be unable to keep hurting you by implying you're sleeping around. He can't accuse you if he can't communicate with you. And what is it any of his business if you DO see someone? He ISN'T YOUR HUSBAND.


The problem here, is not your husband and any disorder he may have.

It is YOU. It is that you ARE ALLOWING yourself to stay stuck with this man who treats you like crap. It's nice that you care, but care from a little bit further away.

He isn't your problem anymore. Right now you are staying with him at the expense of your own self. It isn't noble, it's desperate.

You know what you need to do.

Someday I hope you have the courage to actually do it.

Whether your ex husband is crazy or not is not your problem.

Your problem is you still hold a candle for him and therefore you can not move on. Once you let him go your life can begin.

L2S, no doubt your XH wants a Fantasy Divorce. Did I send you this link?

He is a very selfish man, and he says the things he does because he enjoys seeing you jump when he yanks your string. You are just one more face in his harem and that's what he wants. He throws you crumbs because that keeps you dangling, and because that keeps HIM in charge with all the power. He's got a collection of women at his beck and call (and you are just one of them.)

Please read this link if you haven't already. And then go to a pitch-black Plan B. As I said above, it's not just for married folks anymore.

Get this toxic nightmare out of your life.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279757&page=1

Mulan,
Read part of the thread and what I got out of it was that some think they can D but remain friends. This is definitely XH's pattern as he was in such a R w/his 2nd X at the time I met him. She was taking care of his checkbook for him. Now, I find myself in the same role. She actually came back into his life during our separation and I found letters from her to him saying how much she loved him and wanted us to D so they could get back together.
I don't want to be his 2nd X and have told him that but find that I am exactly that except that they were sleeping together and we are not.
Question: Is there a personality disorder (not hypochondriac) where the person is always sick? Something is always wrong, whether it's a sore back, sore throat, hurt shoulder, upset stomach, headache, nauseated, etc.? Something is always wrong w/them? This describes my XH. He is always sick.

I am really trying to concentrate on the negative and I am really taking a cold hard look at him, our marriage and our current R, such as it is. Why am I there? Are we friends, is there more, or is he just stringing me along for free help w/paperwork. He helps me as well so it's not a one-sided situation but, as long as he is in my life there will be no room for anyone else. And, if I'm around him I cannot be around my famly as there is no R between the two.

L2S your ex sounds like a Sociopath in his actions with you and the 2nd ex-wife.

Profile of the Sociopath

# Glibness and Superficial Charm

# Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

# Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

# Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

# Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

# Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

# Incapacity for Love

# Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

# Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

# Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

# Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

# Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

# Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

# Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

# Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

swan's song,
I definitely can see my X in:
Glibness and superficial charm
Manipulative and conning
Pathological lying
Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity

I'm really trying to push aside the emotions and see him and our R (past and present) as it really is.

Wed he asked if I could help w/company paperwork and tried to make me feel guilty that one bill had not been paid on time - I would not "own" it. I agreed to help but, before I got there he was already telling me I could wait til another day. I said "no" as I wanted to get it out of the way. All the time I was there - and I hurried through the stack - he was nasty and short and used the excuse that he did not feel good - yet again.

Yesterday, he was a totally different person, playing nice, making sexual comments and giving me compliments!!!!! It was like Wed PM never happened. His excuse? He didn't feel good.

He did say that all the phone calls that were on his long distance bill were to a woman that was one of his customers. That is a strange R as she is married but husband is out of town a lot. Of course, I don't believe any of what he says b/c of all the amazing lies he has told in the past. He also got at least 2 text messages from another female customer yesterday that I saw.

Just really trying to put more distance there and really trying to dissect his words and deeds and see it all for what it really is.

L2S what about you try an experiment. A temporary Plan B to gain some perspective on you, your life and your exH.

Say for 3 months, go completely NC. No phone calls, no emails, not text, no getting news of him from other people. Tell him you need some time to yourself and get some perspective.

At the end of the experiment, look at your life and look at your past and then REALLY make an informed decision on whether you want him in your life or not.

I think you'll be surprised by the result.

So what do you think?

I agree. Since you aren't able to commit to an endless Plan B, how about 3 months? You can do anything for 3 months.

And honestly, I don't think the man is sick. I think he is evil. There is a difference.

As regards your vacation, jealousy and possessiveness are not measures of caring or love. Your X doesn't love you. He uses you. He is like a vampire. He feeds on your emotion, your pain, your efforts to make him happy. But you are food to him. Vampires are evil, even Ann Rice says so.

And as regards the double standard, get used to it. You are like the dog. The dog owner doesn't follow the same rules as the dog. That would be insane. This is how your ex sees it.

TODAY, you should go get a new cell phone number and send it to everyone who you can trust not to give it to your ex. Ditto the email address. Then, you lock up the old phone. Don't answer it, don't look at it. Unplug the house phone. Have your daughter cull the mail, tossing anything the ex sends. Stay in no contact for three months. Then, if you decide you still want to be in touch with this vampire, then call him up. Trust me, he'll be there. He'll probably try to make you pay for escaping him, evil people do, but he'll take you back to the place you are right now.

Oh, and just in case you forget...

Your X is evil. You are not emotional food for someone else to consume and use. You are not a pet dog. You are a good and valuable human being with a soul and a purpose in life. You are a child of God. It matters not what your X thinks. It doesn't even matter what you think. You are one of God's own children and you are valuable beyond measure.

Thanks for that Gg. You're a true blessing.
Opt

In fact, I liked this so much I used it with my 9th grade CCD (religious ed) class this evening. So, thanks again. Your words have touched more people than you might have thought when you wrote them.
Opt

I wish someone had educated me when I was little. It would have saved me. I never was with a separated MM. I'm so grateful.

Opt--Thanks. I remember when I realized this. I know where I was and exactly what I was doing. I remember thinking it didn't matter if my X didn't think I was worth the effort because God created me, and it only matter that I thought I was worth while. But immediately after that, I finally made the next leap. What difference did it matter WHO that I had value or not? If I thought I wasn't worth much, it may lead me to bad decisions, but my opinion couldn't change the intrinsic value of something God made.

I'm really trying hard to see him as he really is. I'm trying to set aside the emotion and focus on the tactics. It's sad that I find myself delaying doing things I want to do because I am afraid to tell him that I'm doing x, whatever that may be.

He has a way of trying to make me feel bad that he has no one in his life. One child is in another state and the other one maintains contact to get what he can out of his dad. And, he has limited association with his family. One brother lives right across the street but there's no R.

He really tries to make me feel as though the bad R w/my family is my fault. He doesn't seem to understand that everyone knows what he did and that's what they're angry about and that's why they don't want me w/him. It's not that I told them that they know - or not all of it anyway as he did so much in front of others that told other people.

He's talking again of moving out of state and of us just being friends b/c he doesn't want to be alone anymore and we have no chance to repair R b/c I'm too embarrassed by all that he has done. And, yes, I have to admit that I am embarrassed and would be ashamed and feel stupid that people knew what he did yet I went back to him.

Sorry for the rambling. A lot of what he says is right on target. I would be ashamed and think people would view me as an idiot for taking him back after all he's done. I find myself very estranged from my own family b/c I can't be around both at the same time. They think he's lower than dirt and I wonder sometimes what they know that I don't.

My sister told me that she knew that he was seeing someone that he had been seeing before and then, when I pressed her, she clammed up. Said she was sorry she said anything and that if she thought it would matter she would tell me, but she doesn't think it will make a difference because nothing else has. And she's right.

I don't want to go through another Thanksgiving and Christmas trying to be w/him and w/my family b/c I feel bad that he has no family. I know he hasn't been alone all the holidays and he's been w/other women.

Grrrrr. I feel so stupid even writing this. I just want this over and I know I'm the only one that can do it.

If you don't stop feeling sorry for him and let him take the consequences of his own actions - let him hit bottom on his own - he will never, ever have the slightest chance of changing. Why should he, when he can always count on you to be there for him no matter how horribly he behaves?

What happened to doing Plan B for three months?

Honestly, I'm having a hard time mustering up the nerve to do it. It all stems from the fear of never finding anyone and having the unhealthy, broken R we have is better than nothing at all. Sad but true.
I know in my gut that this is incredibly unhealthy and I can verbalize all the reasons why yet I can't bring myself to close the door.
I want to. I desperately want to. You have no idea how badly I want to. I keep hoping he will move and then find myself hoping he doesn't.
I continue to take a dispassionate look at everything and, although I keep saying that I don't want to lose what there is, I still have no desire to be in a full-time R w/him and I have no desire to have a physical R w/him b/c I don't trust that I would be the only one.
Oh well. Off to bed.

What do you think you are losing?

L2S, you don't want to end the relationship as much as you want to continue it. If you'd rather have what you have today instead of risking not having someone for a long while, that's your choice.

The only thing I can say is that there are NO GUARANTEES in this life aside from God's love and salvation. You can stick with your X becuase you don't want to risk being without someone. But, that doesn't guarantee you won't end up alone. Your X to move, he could start to fix his own problems, and that would maybe lead him to stop feeding off of you, or he could wind up dead.

There are only two relationships here on earth that last our entire life time. The relationship with have with ourselves and our relationship with God. I know what I say is harsh. Sometimes the truth is harsh, and it is often unpleasant. Yet the truth will surely set you free.

L2S, you bring to mind a famous quote by Albert Einstein:
You are unhappy the way things are and you aren't willing to do what it takes to change it. How on earth do you expect things to change?

I just get so sad sometimes when I'm alone and/or allow my mind to wander to what might have been.
I talked to him today and he was talking about trying to find a job as his health continues to decline and he needs insurance. But then I think that under the new insurance laws there are high risk pools that he can now access. In our state it's $495 per month. I don't know what all it covers but, if he made some spending adjustments, he could pay that. He has a business and if he did one side job per month plus cut back on all the junk food and drinks he buys on a daily basis he could afford it. So, maybe he doesn't have it b/c he doesn't want it or he wants to use it as "feel sorry for him" leverage. In any event, it works!!
I'm trying to distance myself and not call as I once was. We do occasionally speak but not like we were.
My D is back home as the summer is gone and she has started college at a local school. So, that has limited the time I see him in the evenings.
I know I am bringing only pain on myself by maintaining attachment but he's like a drug to an addict or a drink to an alcoholic. I can be sober for only so long and then ..........
I want a life and I want to move on but then there is an insane part of me that misses what could have been and I start to slide again.
Just don't give up on me. I have no one else to share this and I desperately need you guys to talk to about how I am feeling.

Ahem.

I may be butting in here, but there were several comments that provoked me to respond.

The first is your 'handle.' You call yourself 'life2short,' but are not acting in a way consistent with that idea. You have put yourself in a rut and rather than work your way out of it, you continue to stay there.

This goes along with your comment

Do you know how alcoholics and addicts get sober? They do it through abstinence. You continue to set yourself up for "relapse" through your interactions with him.

As harsh as it sounds, you should start a healthy and solid Plan B: stop all contact with him! In the addiction recovery business you are one who would be defined as a co-dependent. You are enabling him and by doing so are preventing your own recovery.

I learned it here first, and then elsewhere, that NO CONTACT with the person or substance that is abusing you is the best course of action. And make no mistake, you are being abused -- with your consent, even -- by him. It is not your responsibility to see that his needs, healthwise or other, are taken care of.

If you could only read your words in such a way as you could hear them. That would be much like looking yourself in the mirror. Can you see/hear the person writing those words?

Tabby1 offered a quote by Einstein. I'll offer a similar one, so that maybe you can get a grip on the problem:

"Nothing changes if nothing changes."

L2S, Is getting sad so awful? If it's depression, you need medical and talk therapy. If it's not depression, sadness is really a gift. It's painful and unpleasant, but it does a lot of good. It's medicine. And the unpleasantness doesn't last forever. You grow through it and get stronger and happier.

I get so annoyed at how most of the self-help books make it seem like the ultimate goal in life is to be forever happy. Please.

There's a good book out there. C.S. Lewis's book The Problem of Pain. It's very interesting and helpful. I also like Frankel's Man's Quest for Meaning although it's very academic.

Many hugs. We only bully you because we care.

Well. I typed out a LONG response earlier only to find that it did not post for some reason.

Distance is being put between the two of us by both of us. It is sad but I do know that it's for the best. I do know that so much has gone on between us that I don't see how we could ever make a go of it but, it still hurts.

Whenever I talk to him there are constant complaints about something:
he doesn't feel good
his employees are being careless and forgetting supplies needed on the job
his son is being a jerk
someone made him mad
a customer ticked him off
he makes evasive comments about tying up loose ends
talks about needing to leave all this behind and start fresh somewhere else

Two of the biggest issues that still exist between the two of us that can be directly attributed to our divorce are:
1 - his relationships w/other women
2 - his R/with his son

The other women thing - I have caught him lying in the past about who was calling him. This was a couple of years ago but the cell rang and he looked at it and said that's so and so - and mentioned a guy's name - and said he would call back. I asked him to show me the phone. He did and it was the OW.
Now when the phone rings or he gets a text message he will sometimes show me and sometimes he will say that's so and so and won't show me. So, of course, when he won't show me I believe it's a woman. He also continues what I think is an inappropriate amount of contact w/a customer whose husband is out of the country. Supposedly he's friends w/both but she's the one he was talking to at 1am and ran up $25.00 at 5 cents a minute on the phone w/her. She texts him all the time but there's nothing there according to him - she's like a sister!?!?!?

The other issue is his son. He's 24 - two kids by two women that he married after the kids were born - twice divorced. Now has 3rd girl pregnant and rumor is he has beaten her up before. He has his finances all tied up in trying to help son. Is always giving him money or paying for something for him and son supposedly pays him back. Not my concern but used to drive me crazy and still would.

Know I'm rambling but trying to come to terms with it all and it helps to "talk it out" with you all.

L2S,

Re-read your post please.

Then, explain to me how your ex's opinion or feelings are worthy of even the slightest twinge of pain.

You do know this vampire couldn't tell platinum from mica, lobster from tofu, or wine from vinegar. That's pretty much the reason you can't have a relationship with him. An Angel of Mercy would probably have to knock him upside his head just to get his attention.

Greengables,
I KNOW you are right. My head tells me to run. My head tells me to think about it and mull it over and contemplate it ad nauseum.

I don't WANT to be in this rut and the only one that can get me out of it is ...... ME.

I am wasting precious years of my life, time I will never regain. I desperately want to move on with my life - whatever that turns out to be. I am a very young middle-aged woman with many good years left yet I feel them draining away along with missed opportunities.

I know I will be happier b/c I am happier w/o him. He is negative, controlling, manipulative and obsessive-compulsive. He's untrustworthy and unfaithful.

L2S, I know you KNOW these things.

Sometimes we need to go with our head and some times we need to go with our heart and sometimes we need to go with our gut.

Your heart still wants him, but your head and your gut are telling you to run far and fast. The problem with hearts is that they can be very undiscriminating right up until the point they are shattered beyond repair. Hearts also really like the familiar. And they are not even close to logical--think of silly Juliet. You have a very strong resiliant heart. It's had a lot of pain and yet it's still there. For the right man, you will be a blessing beyond all worldly wealth. Listen to your head and your gut. Your heart will miss your X for a long time, and you may feel a bit of a pull right up until you find a new person to love.

I remember a guy I dated when I was young. I loved him so much, but he was like poison to me. When he broke up with me I was devastated. I cannot tell you how long it took me to get over him. It wasn't until I was in love with someone that those ties finally stopped tugging.

You have no idea how much I want to move on, how much I want to date again, how much I want to be in a good relationship. I just don't know where to find that person. At 52, not interested in someone I would find in a bar - don't do bars. Haven't met anyone at church although I must admit I don't stick around once it's over and I haven't attended any social functions. Hate doing that kind of thing by myself.

I toyed with eHarmony and match.com. Don't want my photo out there for all the world to see.

I suppose if it's meant to happen it will.

I know that him out of my life - and my daughter's - is the best. I KNOW that. Now, just have to make it so.

It seems you really want it to happen, but you admit to taking active steps in preventing it. You don't need to go to a gritty bar to find someone if they are not the types of places that hold the quality of men you desire. But there are waterfront cafe's, wine restaurants, coffee shops, etc. that may hold a different type of person that would appeal to you. Church, well, stick around after and attend the social functions. The fact that you hate doing these things by yourself simply means you have an obstacle to get over. Learning to love doing things by yourself is part of the healing process. Like anything it takes exposure and practice to get used to. EHarmony and Match are both great choices. But most won't respond to a pictureless profile, so again, something to work out for yourself. I've done Match and met a lot of great guys. (No love interest yet. I enjoy the company but seem to have lost my libido in the divorce.)

"If it's meant to happen it will" is a great cliche, but why not take a proactive role in the process? Are you sure you're ready? Understandable if you're not. But it's still a good idea to get out there and be social. Just to be comfortable in your own skin doing it when you are ready. Baby steps perhaps? Attend those church functions and frequent a coffee shop with a good book.

The social thing I had down from day one. The seething anger toward the ex is the part I'm still working on!

I'm more angry at myself for allowing such a huge portion of my life to be consumed by someone who loved me so much he treated me as he did. Of course, it was treatment I apparently didn't mind too much b/c I stayed for a long time after I saw who he was and I am STILL not totally over it all even now.

He called me earlier to say that he wasn't trying to bring up anything but............ he remembered how much he hurt me in 1998 (our one year anniversary) when he was already having an A w/a much younger woman that his sister introduced him to. I knew something was wrong w/our M but didn't know what. I booked a one-night stay in a bed and breakfast and arranged for my sister to keep my D. We didn't have his kids that weekend. At the time he was a dispatcher. He didn't even ask for someone to cover him. When I told him that I had made plans for us he didn't even want to go so I had to spoil the surprise by telling him what I had planned.
I took photos that night of the room and I have one of him sitting on the bed on the phone dispatching. What i learned later is that he was probably also listening to voicemails from the OW. That's how I learned about the A. I finally figured out the code to his VM box and the OW "told" me all about it.
Anyway, he called to apologize for all the hurt and pain that he caused me by having the A.
This is something he occasionally does - call out of the blue to apologize for something but then he always puts a dig in and brings up something I did that was - in his eyes - equal to what he did or has a causal relationship to what he did.
Oh well, just thinking and venting. One day he is ready to move and down on life and the next he is apologetic.
The one thing he hasn't done in a very long time is threaten suicide. For a while he was doing that quite often. Not sure how I would handle that. He really put me through h@ll with that ploy.

The XH went away w/friends this weekend. I talked to him once on Friday and he called once yesterday. My DD and I have been together all weekend shopping, working at home going through boxes of old stuff and cleaning up.
I have to say, as sad as it does make me in one respect, it has been refreshing because I haven't worrried about where he is or what he is doing. Is he w/friends or w/a woman? I don't know and I am not much bothered by it.
For me, that's progress!!!!

you're moving in the right direction l2s.
Think Dory from Finding Nemo: "just keep swimming..., just keep swimming..."

opt

XH is back from trip. He has called several times this afternoon. Just got off the phone w/him. Conversation was light and pleasant until he brought up my D. Said that everyone involved has situation w/her just where they want it - no R w/him. Said he has tried but can't do any more to repair the R and so he is giving up and giving everyone what they want. Said he is going to leave us alone b/c that is apparenty what we want. Said he has tried to talk to me about fixing it but I won't talk.
Frankly, I'm not sure what he expects me to do. She has vivid memories of a lot of stuff he did. She probably overheard conversations between famly members about some of the stuff he has done that admittedly she shouldn't have heard or known but.. she does. I'm not sure what I can do to repair the R. She doesn't want one and trying to push them together is not going to make her change her mind. She wants nothing to do with him.
Earlier in the year he did some work at the house and she saw him 2-3 times and had to talk to him to make some choices about materials to use. I thought it would be a good chance to see how she would react. She was respectful when he was around but she clearly doesn't want him back in her life.
I can't force her to contact him or like him or want him around. He's the one that did the stuff that caused the problems but wants to blame me and my family. He put his son first over everything and everyone to the exclusion of me and my D. She hasn't forgotten that. She hasn't forgotten a lot of stuff and probably knows more than I think she does. I wish I had her backbone. When she's done she's done. Sure didn't get it from me!!

Just Keep Swimming, LifeTwoShort.

Focus on your own recovery and gaining what strength you can. You taken huge steps in that direction and frankly it's good to see. I suppose we can all learn some lessons from our kids. Your daughter has a good sense of her boundaries and what she'll tolerate and how not to expose herself to more pain/damage.

BTW, your ex is not finished with you. All that nonsense he was spewing was pure manipulation. He's too immature to actually live by his own resolve to "leave you alone." Stick with your plan kid.

Opt

My apologies, LtwoS, I could have said this in a different way. I was a little fired up.
The phraseology your ex chose to explain his position leads me to believe that he lacks the boundaries to adhere to his own plan to "leave (people) alone."

Again, I say: stick with your plan.

Opt

Optimism:
No problem. I didn't take anything you said in a negative way. I appreciate and need the feedback.

Really needing some moral support right now. I have spoken to him only occasionally this whole week.

On Monday morning he left a voicemail about how he wished things could be different and how with the holidays coming up he didn't want to spend them alone again. I had made a comment to him that if the R had worked out with the last girl he dated - which by the way he lied about while it was going on - that we would no longer be talking b/c he would have told me to leave him alone. On the VM he said "Have you ever thought that it didn't work out b/c I still love you?" Of course he told me the reason they "broke up" is b/c she lied to him about where she was on numerous occasions. Who knows the real truth?

I did not acknowledge or respond to the email b/c I really didn't want to start my week off by rehashing ancient history.

Fast forward to today and I get this text message:
"It's obvious our love can't be overcome and neither can our problems. I'll keep doing my part to keep it going in the direction you steered in. Just don't get mad at me for dancing on the stage you set. I love you but I also understand. No response please."

Okay. So he is moving toward seeing someone or already is. I have my doubts and suspicions about EVERYTHING he does and I do mean everything. If he feels as he does why doesn't he just leave me alone? I guess i could say the same of myself though. Guess we're both two messed up people.

Anyway, thoughts and encouragement are greatly appreciated. I still have those "what would happen if..." moments where I wonder if there's a chance to fix this. I know deep down that this isn't really what I want but I also know that I don't really won't to be alone and the one always tagging along with the married folks.

Thanks all.

You might not want to hear this but YOU are choosing to have this dysfunctional relationship with your ex, as a betrayed spouse you don't get to choose since your married when the affair hits.

Both of you have not changed, he with his waywardness, and you jumping in to save him when he doesn't want to change any of his bad habits or his bad choices.

You eat it up when he pays any attention to you even if it's a blame shift back hand compliment you think he is being nice when he is just using you until some one new comes along.

You posted that you have a daughter now would you want her to date some one like your ex?

Swan's song,
Sadly, I agree with you. I have the ability to stop all contact, but choose not to. There is a flaw in me that allows myself to remain connected, however bad that connection is.

And yes, you are also right about the attention piece. Also, right about nice until someone else comes along.

You are right about the whole thing. My big issue is stopping. I have dealt with a lot of tragedy in my life, some self-inflicted by poor choices and some out of my control. This is one of the toughest situations I've ever dealt with.

As I said, there's a flaw in me that is drawn in by his neediness. I find myself wanting to take care of stuff better than anyone else ever has. How sad is that?

This isn't a healthy R - and no, no, no I would never want my D in this type R and, if asked about a similar situation w/someone else I would tell them to run fast and run far.

Just can't seem to take my, or others, good advice.

Just need to vent.
I have tried really hard over the last two weeks to leave him alone. Probably 95% of the time I talked to him was b/c he called me.
Today, had a yard sale. Cool this morning. When I got home, took a shower and got dressed. XH called and asked if I needed any help in yard. No - not doing yardwork. So, I showered and had just gotten dressed when my doorbell rings. It's him and he has a picture frame in his hand.
When we were first married and things started going south - didn't know at the time that it was b/c he was having an A - I gave him a card and attached to the card was a tear-off card with the Bible passage of what love is "love is kind, love is patient, love holds no history of wrong-doing", etc. So today he shows up with this in his hand saying isn't this yours? I say "no it's yours". Oh he says. Thought your sister gave it to you. No I say - I gave it to you. Him - do you want it? Me - no it's yours. Him - I don't remember you giving it to me.

This from a man that remembers everything I ever said, everything I ever did, every look, every everything.

This is common behavior for him by the way. Whenever he starts talking about moving on he will find something in his house that I left behind and he will bring it to my house and put it inside the storm door. I can just about bet the farm whenever something like this is going to happen.

Then, he takes a picture of the card in the frame and sends it to me with the following message "Guess love is defined differently depending on whose favor it's in". This from the man that is constantly making snide remarks about what I do for my D versus what he was "allowed" to do for his. He forgets that he has allowed his kids - post our divorce - to just about put him into bankruptcy and is still doing this stuff.

Anyway, I'm just venting and wondering what type person does this kind of stuff. What is the point? I've just stopped responding when he does this. I pretend that it didn't happen. I don't allow him to bait me into a confrontation over it - which is what it always turns into.

Thoughts, responses, etc. are greatly appreciated. I know it may not seem like it but I am really trying to distance myself day by day a little more each day.

Well, I could tell you waht "type of person does that kind of stuff," but I would be repeating myself, lol.

Actually, I sense your effort to put the distance between you and him; it shows in your posts. I think you're making progress; I see you gaining strength. All I can offer is encouragement for more of the same. I bet it feels good to be maintaining some control and not relinquishing it so readily as you had been doing in the past.

Opt

optimism,
I AM trying, but it's tough. He is constantly trying to pull me back in. He calls and he's sick. He called yesterday asking for pain meds as he had given all he had to his S and he is out - I don't have any to give him. Chronic pain due to 4 back/neck surgeries. Says he is going to have to have shoulder surgery - auto accident ~ 2 yrs ago, but since D from me has no insurance.

- Was the purpose of this call to pull me back in and elicit sympathetic response?

I am really trying hard to see everything for what it really is yet it is very hard to let go and go dark. The phone calls are less frequent now and I seldom talk to him in the evening as I used to do.

Sometimes I hate it when I'm right, but I have learned to read the signs.

XH called me early this afternoon. Wanted to know if the small TV in the spare bedroom was mine. I said no. Then, "do you want it?" Me - no I have no use for it.

Then, "do you want the other TV?" This is a large screen that needs to be repaired. Me - "no it would take up my entire living room".

Then the next inevitable question - Do you have anything else here that belongs to you or can you think of anything else you want from the house? Me - no.

So, the next step will probably be for him to say that he is trying to tie up loose ends here so he can make plans to move to another state as he has nothing left to hold him here.

The whole thing just really punches in the gut. We could have had such a good marriage, except that, for him, everything else and everyone else took priority.

L2S, I know this is a hot button for me, and sometimes I think I see shadows where none exist, but have you considered the possibility that your XH has a personality disorder?

His behavior strikes me as having a lot of the same characteristics of the Cluster B. There is a site I found very useful when trying to learn about my own experience. There are a lot of horrifyingly terrific articles, but this one in particular might be an eye-opener. A few tidbits
And
And
There's more, of course. A lot more. You might find it worthwhile taking a few moments to read some of the articles. I know I did!

Sounds like a woulda-coulda-shoulda, L2S.
Hey we all have 'em. Me, after a couple of real nice dates, thinking "see, if she had just been more like them...." (I leave out the details, but you get what I'm saying).
Fact is, that thinking don't work. You know that right? And it works even less and less as you develop and he doesn't. You must assume that he isn't going to follow your road of personal development. Know what that means? He wasn't playing the same game as you before and now the incompatibility simply grows larger by the day. It means you're moving forward in a good and healthy way....forward, UP. You're on a different developmental plane.

And, you can't keep reaching down to try to boost him up-- he must find his own path. And only YOU can allow him to hold you back from your own.

He could move. But unless you've established your own boundaries in his presence then it's only a convenient situational change; not a substantial positive change for you.

Opt

Whew!!!! The dance we dance.
Limited contact the last couple of weeks. Seems that every Monday XH sends txt msg and starts an argument about us getting back together. Here goes:
"As many times as I made the comment I thought that was what u wanted (meaning no contact) and told you I would start backing off and you did nothing or said nothing to change my mind. Therefore you lead me where you wanted me to go. I will make it happen and will not be stupid again."
Then..........
"I can come by today after lunch (this was yesterday) and" do some last minor touch-ups to the work he did at my house. "I'll also bring your shoes and I have some milk that will probably go bad before I use it. Just wish you had been grown up enough to say something rather than push me to it. But believe it or not I actually got it. Stupid me! I feel like there is someone else so I will make sure I respect that."

I told him I did not want him to do the work and that I would complete it b/c I did not want to give him something else to throw up in my face when he got mad about something. Told him I would not want to use his son again. HE said he would do the work. Kept on and I finally said OK. Then, found out son did help.

"And when I said I didn't want to talk to you sometimes its because I love you so much and it hurts so bad the way you did. Sorry."
"I'm sorry I said things to hurt you. No excuse but you have hurt me pretty bad with the way you've handled things. I was glad to help you honestly. It gave me time with you. Just wish I had known and not been so stupid".

I did talk to him 3-4 times and he accused me of using his son (the one I had such a hard time with when we were married). His son works for him in and was one of the ones doing the floors at my house. I told XH that I don't have a problem with his son anymore b/c what he does no longer affects me. Told him that I did not ask his son to do the work but that XH is the one that had him do it. Also, he was paid cash $ so didn't have to pay taxes on it AND the two of them were the ones that said how much I owed.

The situation is absolutely hopeless and we both know it yet we continue with this dance. During our conversation yesterday I mentioned that I don't trust him and brought up the cell phone and the text msgs. He then brought up the two women, both married and customers of his, that continually text him. Said I could look at his phone anytime and that if we got back together and it bothered me he would tell them to stop and would even stop doing work for them if necessary.

My thought was "if you're trying to show me that you've changed and that we could work it out why would you do something that got us to where we are in the first place" - inappropriate relationships w/female customers? And, if he wanted me to trust him why would he show the cell phone to me sometimes and not others which immediately made me suspicious. And, I caught him once lying about who was calling. Made him show me phone and it was the OW.

I know I'm rambling and know I'm rehashing ancient history. Just trying to get off my chest and sort through my feelings.

Right, L2S. And furthermore if someone is truly changed (and in a lasting way) and for the right reasons, they don't need to show anybody anything. To me that's the true mark of an insincere and temporary behavior modification "look at me! I've changed! See! I can do it right!!"
And I've earned the right to point out the difference because I've made changes in my life both ways, first the wrong way (for the better part of my married life) and now the right way; for myself.

Leave it at that. End of story.


okay you lost me here. who said what?

opt

[quote=life2short]"And when I said I didn't want to talk to you sometimes its because I love you so much and it hurts so bad the way you did. Sorry."
"I'm sorry I said things to hurt you. No excuse but you have hurt me pretty bad with the way you've handled things. I was glad to help you honestly. It gave me time with you. Just wish I had known and not been so stupid".

Both of the above txt msgs are from XH. He did end up completing the final touch-ups to the floors.

The passive aggressive way your XH communicates is really toxic. The way he makes himself the victim and you the villain, the way he presents himself as the selfless lover and you the cold b#@ch, all the while not respecting the points you are trying to communicate. A whole lotta "sorry, but's" going on. No real focus on his issues, and redirecting back on to you. It's clear he has feelings for you. And I guess I'm not sure of your real intentions toward him, but this dance you two are going through doesn't seem to be healthy. Have you committed to a no-contact? If not, why?

She has been doing this for years, Fells.
She is unable to stop it.

It is completely toxic. It is completely unhealthy.

But she will not close the door and walk away.

Sad. She could be in a whole new life by now. With a healthy partner, maybe someone who could have a great impact and influence on her daughter. I shudder to think of what she has modeled for her daughters future relationships.

I don't think she wants to change. She "gets" something out of being stuck in this circular dance with this manipulative abusive man.

Lexxxy she is getting something out of this relationship because she continues the toxic dance.

I too feel sorry for Lifes2short daughter because more than likely she will mimic some of her mother's behavior, having witnessing it.

Why would someone invest their time, love, caring into someone who continuously uses them for a quick fix, when nothing is going on in their lives.

Good morning all. Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving.

Fellspointmom, Lexxxy, swan's song,
You are right about the unhealthy part. Part of my problem is that I am not totally healthy emotionally or I would have started divorce proceedings the day I learned about the first A that started prior to our first anniversary.

My D and I have had lengthy discussions about the type of R she needs to be involved in. She is 19 and has dated no one. I believe she has good boundaries and doesn't mind speaking her mind.

I did not see or talk to him until late yesterday evening as I was w/my family from Wed evening until I came back home. I felt compelled to call him as he had told me he would be alone. Turns out he visited his mom and sister which was good.

The R w/us is winding down and I want to pull the plug. I just can't seem to take that one final step of shutting the door and throwing away the key.

I know you all must get terribly frustrated when you give such good advice and I fail to follow it. Thanks for hanging in there w/me. You don't know how much it helps to continually get the feedback and the advice and how much it helps when I post things that he has said or done and I get an unbiased opinion of how others outside the situation interpret what he is doing.

Saw a pretty good article that was listed on an eharmony advertisement. It's the six signs you're settling for second best. Link below for those that want to view.
The Reader's Digest version is:
1. You're irrationally iritated by the "little" things your partner does
2. You're increasingly nostalgic for weekends and evenings alone
3. You tell yourself you're racing the clock for one last chance at love.
4. You see your relationship as a rescue operation. (You know you�re in danger of settling the moment you make a �to-do� list of things you�d like to help your partner improve upon: lose weight, stop smoking, be more outgoing, find a better job, and so forth. The best person for you will not feel like a fixer-upper.)
5. You pointedly decide to overlook your partner's faults.
6. You routinely make excuses for your partner to others.

It was thought provoking.
http://advice.eharmony.com/?page=sl...amp;index=0&cid=2091&aid=1209103

Another one was 10 Reasons Your Relationship Picker is Broken:
1. You Feel That Stable, Emotionally Healthy People are Boring.
2. You still aren't over your ex.
3. You're using Hollywood to qualify your dates - fantasy.
4. You're too young to know who you are.
5. You're trying to please someone else w/your choice of a partner.
6. Physical beauty far exceeds other traits you value.
7. You have some need to control the other person.
8. You tend to choose wounded souls, so they will need you to fix them.
9. You're self esteem is so damaged that you don't do the picking at all.
10. You didn't get a very good relationship model from your parents.
Link below:
http://advice.eharmony.com/?page=slideshows/view&slideshow=23&index=9