Marriage Builders
Posted By: indiegirl Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/04/11 11:02 PM
Hey folks,

My first post - here goes. My husband of nine years and I been having problems for some time. For about three or four years Ive felt he likes to go out with friends at least ten times better than to spend time with me. Two years ago his good friend died and since then he has spent even more of his free time with their other mutual friends. Also his friends family, which I dont mind, if he spends some time with me too. I have in the past used very inneffective methods to solve this, first I wouldnt raise it forcefully enough then I would go completely overboard with an angry outburst filled with selfish demands.
The last one of these was just before Christmas when I was pretty drunk. I dont remember it, I hurt him very badly saying inexcusable things (untrue things) and he nearly left me.
It was around then I found the website and have been applying the principles since then. Taking the love busters out of my own actions has slowly improved our relationship (but it is glacial slow). Th independent behaviour stuff I am getting nowhere with. He is only slightly less huffy with me and still thinks if we go out and have a good time I will end up screaming at him (like the last time). He will go very reluctantly with me to the odd film or meal but its drive there drive straight back one hour later. Most of my weekends are spent alone. If his friends call he's straight off, whereas I have to book him two weeks in advance, then he will probably cancel on me (hes sick a lot!) IB was a cornerstone of our marriage that we both believed in and I indulged in it plenty until all the women we knew had kids, but he still went out the guys.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 12:58 AM
Welcome to MB, indiegirl.

Are you legally married? Do you have any kids? Has either of you been married before? How old are you both?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 01:14 AM
Yes married in 2002. No kids, each other's first love. Hes 34 im 33
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 01:22 AM
Just realised I havent actually asked a question! I suppose what Im wondering is do I push the issue? I bring it up a lot, but have been trying to be less demanding.
Its very very hard!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 11:28 AM
So indie, it sounds like you've done a lot of growing and changing. I think a lot of times we used to yell because we mistakenly thought our partners would not take us seriously unless we did. But now you've gotten rid of those lovebusters, awesome! So how do you communicate to him effectively that this isn't working for you, the lack of time together, and while you were willing to go the extra mile in planning and stuff, you see maybe he isn't enjoying the things you pick, you guys drive straight home. So you need some help. Today is Sunday. How about you two plan one nice thing for Saturday and one for Sunday?

IB is a tough one, especially if you two are used to drinking to the point that you don't remember what happened the next day. Have you read the articles on IB and what to do about it?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 01:14 PM
Yes, but I am having real trouble even approaching POJA. He is very very withdrawn from me. For example we havent had sex since this incident at christmas, or kissed even. Although forehead kisses and hugs are just making a comeback. Hes ultra sensative to criticism (the drunken rant was pretty much all criticism and I guess some of it was true to have hit him so hard) He sees me asking him to spend time with him as criticism.

Weekends are a sore point because a lot of it is taken up with him playing golf, watching sport, he goes to his godsons football practice too sun mornings. It drives me mad becauseI work hard all week - I want some time with my husband at the weekend...

Having come back from practice, hes said he will finally take care of some dishes that Ive asked him (nicely) to take care of for a few days now. He says hes too tired to do anything this afternoon after that but nap. Hes agreed to babysit for his friends kids later (the friend who died). I asked could I babysit with him but he said he would probably be too tired for me to be with him! Its one of those where I could twist his arm but whats the point in that? When we go out places I usually insist on his choosing, to get over the whole 'drive straight back thing' but thats not working. He just does not relish my company at the moment.

He has agreed that we 'should do something fun' when he knows what his shifts are in work for next week. His tone of voice is a lot more upbeat than it has been in past months when he agreed. Im sceptical though.

The drinking isnt really an issue for us, it was sort of a one off. That night had been the first night hed really made an effort to plan something for us and we were doing something fun. He kept making comments though about how wed prob break up and then he said he hadnt really wanted to be out on a date with me a bit later on. It made me feel shaken, I took a drink, the drink took a drink and the drink took me. It mad me see Im not so calm about things as I thought I had been, so I went googling for help!
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 02:08 PM
Welcome, indiegirl. A few questions, if I may:

Is it possible that your H is having an affair? Have you investigated that possibility? I don't mean asking him, I mean quietly snooping to rule it out (without his knowledge.) I ask because there are a lot of red flags in your story, the main one being
Quote
He says hes too tired to do anything this afternoon after that but nap. Hes agreed to babysit for his friends kids later (the friend who died).
This sounds very 'off' to me. He's too tired to do anything but nap around you, but he's going to go babysit later? Is babysitting something your H would have done in the past? What is the story with the widow of his friend?

And this:
Quote
I asked could I babysit with him but he said he would probably be too tired for me to be with him!

HUH? This makes no sense at all. If he has to 'babysit' and he's 'tired' wouldn't he welcome the extra help?

I think you need to do some industrial-grade snooping, indie. WITHOUT YOUR H'S KNOWLEDGE. Do you need suggestions on how to do that?

Also, don't let him know you're spending time on this site right now. We have tools on here for killing affairs, and it wouldn't be good for him to see them.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 02:31 PM
I know what you're saying, but that's not it. I always know where he is, what bar, house, sportsfield he's at and if I drop by he's always where he says he is. He is using these places to avoid me though.

Friends widow is a good friend to us both (one of my oldest friends) She is not too pleased with his behaviour towards me at the moment. She has been unhappy with my behaviour in the past, told me so and gave me good advice.

It is 'off' and it isnt strictly truthful that hes tired. He is tired but the reason he doesnt want to be around me is because hes in withdrawal. Actually I think he is emotionally tired.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 02:38 PM
I should add that he told me last summer he didnt want children, causing major sds and djs in my response to that total bombshell. (as I do want them and we had talked extensively about having them) Weve talked about it more calmly since and he says he 'wants to want them' but just doesnt, so is spendng more time aorund kids to encourage himself. Not with me though, hes very resistant to that. He also is a lot more involved in his friends kids lives in the past, because they remind him of them an it makes him feel closer to his friend. So babysitting is failry new, the past few years hes been doing it on the odd occasion
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I know what you're saying, but that's not it. I always know where he is, what bar, house, sportsfield he's at and if I drop by he's always where he says he is. He is using these places to avoid me though.

Friends widow is a good friend to us both (one of my oldest friends) She is not too pleased with his behaviour towards me at the moment. She has been unhappy with my behaviour in the past, told me so and gave me good advice.

It is 'off' and it isnt strictly truthful that hes tired. He is tired but the reason he doesnt want to be around me is because hes in withdrawal. Actually I think he is emotionally tired.
You've indicated nothing here that would preclude an affair. Including Especially that the widow is a friend of you both. Look, you had a drunken outburst. That happened HALF A YEAR AGO. That is not what's driving this 'withdrawal' you're talking about.

I would very strongly suggest you do some serious snooping.

You didn't answer my question: is it normal for your H to babysit for people? When did he start babysitting?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 02:46 PM
[/quote]

I would very strongly suggest you do some serious snooping. [/quote]

I have been snooping quite a lot, just to get a better glimpse inside his head. His internet history, emails, phone bills, checking he is where he says he is, not found anything to suggest affair.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 02:48 PM
And the babysitting?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 02:51 PM
Started mostly after we had the talk about children. He said he would try to want them more than he does. Said he wanted to spend more time around them to see how he liked it.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 02:57 PM
Hes just left to go babysitting. Before he left, I didnt say anything to him but he said he might call me to go over if he wants company later, but that he might not if hes watching sport. He said he wants to try getting them to bed by himself 'because its a learning curve for him'. Im considering dropping by.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Hes just left to go babysitting. Before he left, I didnt say anything to him but he said he might call me to go over if he wants company later, but that he might not if hes watching sport. He said he wants to try getting them to bed by himself 'because its a learning curve for him'. Im considering dropping by.
redflag redflag redflag

This reeks. Just reeks, indiegirl. I would definitely plan to mosey on over there in a bit. Without telling him that you're coming!! Show up with a pizza or something. Tell him you wanted dinner/lunch/whatever and you wanted to share it with him. Ask him how the learning curve thingy crazy (not in those words) is going.

JUST SHOW UP UNANNOUNCED.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 03:12 PM
I was planning on it, but unsure, so thanks. It hasn't gone too badly when Ive dropped by in the past, so why not? I have a book to return to our friends house anyway...
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Started mostly after we had the talk about children. He said he would try to want them more than he does. Said he wanted to spend more time around them to see how he liked it.
Think back, indie. Did this conversation take place after his friend died, or before? Does he have a habit of babysitting for all of his friends? How often does he babysit for this widow? Did he babysit those children before his friend died?

More questions, sorry: where did the widow go, that he has to babysit her children? Do you know how long she's going to be gone? I would wait to go over there for a few hours. I'm confused about the business of putting them to bed - is it evening where you are? If that's the case, give him time to put them to bed and then head over. You need to time it so that she would logically still be gone. You don't want to walk in and see them standing in the kitchen with a "Oh, HI, indiegirl! I just got home! How've you been?" from the widow. KWIM?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 03:34 PM
Yes its evening - we're in the UK. She has a cousin's birthday party to go to ( I know other people goign to same party, its likely to be a late night)Catching her 'not going' isnt really a concern. Shes very close to her cousin and it would be extrememly odd and talked about if she didnt go.

He (or I) dont really babysit for anyone else, though we would. Our other friends are two parent families and arent struggling. I help out, so does he, so does another close friend of ours. She only has her parents to help her, they do a lot through the week while she works, so she needs more of a hand for nights out.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 03:36 PM
The kids discussion took place seriously a year after the friend died

However he had tried to bring it up a year before his death and I shot him down. It went something like Him - 'I think weve gone past the point where we'd have kids' Me - Er no we are having them, no discussion'.

Not proud of that.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/11 09:06 PM
So I stopped by.

He was there alone, had just put the kids to bed. I came in, asked how he was doing, put the book on the coffee table. He said he had just tried to call me, I said why, do you need company? He said no, he was planning on staying by himself and just watching TV. He said was I ok, he must have asked me if I was ok five times. I said yes and that he seemed worried and why. He wouldn't really tell me why, so I just said I would see him later.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So I stopped by.

He was there alone, had just put the kids to bed. I came in, asked how he was doing, put the book on the coffee table. He said he had just tried to call me, I said why, do you need company? He said no, he was planning on staying by himself and just watching TV. He said was I ok, he must have asked me if I was ok five times. I said yes and that he seemed worried and why. He wouldn't really tell me why, so I just said I would see him later.
You didn't stay? You left? When was the mother of the children due home?

indie, I'm going to make a statement that I hope will be vetted one way or another by my fellow posters: MARRIED MEN DO NOT BABYSIT. redflag redflag redflag

Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:01 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
He said he wants to try getting them to bed by himself 'because its a learning curve for him'.

They especially don't babysit if they do not want kids of their own. He sounded pretty adamant about that in one of your previous posts.

Learning curve for what? He doesn't want kids.

Why do you think he was uncomfortable that you dropped by and asked you 5 times if you were ok?? Why did you leave??

I would ask your friends what time she left the party and compare to when he arrived home.

It makes no difference if she is your friend. Read my sig.

indiegirl, there are red flags all over here.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:05 AM
Why would I stay? For what purpose?

She was due home in a few hours. I didn't stay because I want to be wanted, want him to be keen to see me, want to be invited into his evenings. I know he is wary of me, he tells me he is waiting for the 'next outburst' and that is because I have done it periodically every few months for years. But im really tired of protesting my innocence, saying that Im done with that.

He was texting me after I left, telling me a good film we both like was on TV and we were texting comments about it to each other. I find it pretty sad that passes for interaction between us now. He told me when he was coming home, he came home earlier than expected. He was nice and affectionate. Then he went asleep on the couch, which I hate.

I just dont know.
Posted By: Penni4Thoughts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:12 AM
Indiegirl, the only way he can know that you are done with outbursts is if he spends time with you and there are no outbursts. The longer you go not spending time together the longer it is going to take him to realize that you are not having outbursts anymore.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:18 AM
Why would I stay? For what purpose?

She was due home in a few hours. I didn't stay because I want to be wanted, want him to be keen to see me, want to be invited into his evenings. I know he is wary of me, he tells me he is waiting for the 'next outburst' and that is because I have done it periodically every few months for years. But im really tired of protesting my innocence, saying that Im done with that.

He was texting me after I left, telling me a good film we both like was on TV and we were texting comments about it to each other. I find it pretty sad that passes for interaction between us now. He told me when he was coming home, he came home earlier than expected. He was nice and affectionate. Then he went asleep on the couch, which I hate.

I just dont know.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:19 AM
I know!! so do I push the issue?

Do I demand?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:20 AM
In re to Pokerface - For years he did want kids though and was very vocal about names and numbers of kids. This is why it was such a shock. When I pinned him on it, and said 'do you definitely not want kids', he said he was unsure, so wants me to be prepared for the fact he may never feel enthusiastic.

He loves kids and is great with them but he thinks he wouldnt be any good as a dad. Therefore my advice was 'practice'. He has babysat in the past, he always has been someone who would, just there isnt often the need. Babysitting for this particular friend is like a bi-annual event too, its not a weekly thing. Shed rather ask parents or sister. Plus she has me and a nother male firend to ask so its not like my H is there constantly

People on facebook posting they are home after the party, the times do tally.

I dont think it does make a difference that she is my friend, lots of friends cheat on each other, this happened to my sister. I just dont think it is happening here.

We have all known each other since we were teenagers. They had plenty of time to date when they were both single, if they had any attraction to each other. They dont. Theyre like brother and sister. Before I was involved with my H, I knew who fancied who and who felt platonically. Not saying its impossible,just cant get on board with the idea
Posted By: Penni4Thoughts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:23 AM
It doesn't sound like you had to push the issue, he wasn't telling you to leave, was he? You could have just stayed and tried to be an enjoyable companion.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:25 AM
I kind of feel like he is testing me some times? Like the asking me if Im ok is really his way of saying 'Can I really do something you dont like without you getting mad? Really?'
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Why would I stay? For what purpose?

Just to spend some time with him. Show him how much fun you two can have. Rebuilding the love. This was a great opportunity.



Posted By: Penni4Thoughts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:29 AM
It's a DJ to read into how he is feeling. It is better to ask him about it.

You could have said, "You have asked me if I am okay a few times now. I am. Is there something else you are concerned about that you aren't saying?"
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:31 AM
I said: "You seem worried, are you?"

He said: "Nothing doesn't matter"

"You sure? YOu can tell me anything, I wont get mad"

"No"
Posted By: Penni4Thoughts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:36 AM
Good, then I would have left it at that and tried to have a fun time with him. Stop walking on eggshells. The more good times you have together the better your relationship will get. Consider every enjoyable hour you spend together as a step closer to a happy marriage.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:43 AM
I know it is walking on egg shells. The alternative though is me going 'we ARE spending the evening together', and while it wouldnt be a disaster, they arent 'enjoyable hours' those evenings are usually pretty flat - those are the drive straight home evenings.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:48 AM
Am I just being impatient and giving up?

OR is it better patience to wait for some enthusiasm from him...
Posted By: Penni4Thoughts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:50 AM
An ok evening is better than not spending time together. Even during a flat evening, you are likely to share a laugh, kiss, or touch. A few love bank deposits are better than none. It seems like you want an amazing evening or nothing, but you are going to have to build up to it. And, if you avoid spending time together, you are guaranteed to not have an amazing evening.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 01:59 AM
hmmm. I agree if I get a laugh, kiss or touch then it is totally worthwhile. When I say 'not a disaster' I mean sulkiness on his part that doesnt turn into an outright row. He cant bear being railroaded into things even slightly. When I turned up at the friends house I was half meaning to stay but instinctually it just didnt feel like it was going to go anywhere. I could totally be wrong though. The 'drive straight home' nights have got the odd laugh kiss and touch, but those are things we both went to, with mutual agreement (even if after lots of perseverent requests from myself)I dont think me showing up uninvited and being told he doesnt want company has as much chance for success. I might have been able to turn it around, but I guess ill never know now. I was afraid of doing damage, that being there was demanding. I felt the texts and affection when he came home where his thanks for not doing that.

Christ im making up this nonsense as I go along, arent I?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 02:22 AM
What is the opinion on this tactic? Tomorrow I say to him: "What would you have thought if I had stayed with you last night? Would you have liked it?"
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
What is the opinion on this tactic? Tomorrow I say to him: "What would you have thought if I had stayed with you last night? Would you have liked it?"

Indie,

I am not a vet here but FWIW, maybe something like ... I really wanted to stay and spend time with you last night because I miss you. That's why I dropped by...



Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 09:07 AM
Yeah, I think thats about the right tone. Will try that later when he gets in..
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Yeah, I think thats about the right tone. Will try that later when he gets in..
Give that a shot, indie. But my gut is telling me that something is very wrong, here. redflag And I don't think it's all about your occasional outbursts. I'll keep reading your thread and hoping I'm wrong.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 04:47 PM
So I told him I had dropped by because I missed him and what would his reaction have been had I stayed. I know he's pretty truthful and that he wouldnt just say 'oh it would have been ok' to get out of it. I knew that staying WASNT OK and I knew he would tell me exactly why.

He said 'here we go again, what have i done now' I said 'You havent done anything, just wondering whether I would have been welcome to stay last night' He said: 'Truthfully, no, but what difference does it make?' I said 'It matters to me, because knowing why stops me guessing. When you act like you don't want me around, I have to guess why.' He said, 'Like what? what are your guesses?' I said: 'Well I might assume you don't like my company.' H: 'Sometimes I don't'. Me: 'Ok, I might also guess I had done something wrong and you were made at me' H: 'You havent done anything wrong'. M: 'So can you give me a reason, that stops me guessing?' H: 'If im by myself I cant upset you and I cant get into trouble. im not arguing with you in a house full of kids. Except here we are, I didnt even see you last night and i am in trouble anyway'. Me: 'No, you're not in trouble, I understand the reason now, and I can stop guessing, you answered what I asked.' Then I added: 'For the record, nothing you do now, will get you into trouble. If you want to spend time by yourself, just say so, though I will probably also ask you to make time for me the night after or something. Im not going to flip out on you though, no matter what. If we disagree on something, im just going to say so, but im never going to force you into doing anything.' H; We'll see how long that lasts'. Me: 'It has to last, nothing else is going to work'.

After ranting a bit,he gave me a hug and we are going out tomorrow night.

I am totally totally drained.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 06:25 PM
You're actually in pretty good shape, then, indie. You know what is wrong--he feels like he gets in trouble every time he spends time with you. So now you know what to do--make spending time with you fun, so he'll want to do it more.

Your UA time should actually come before time 'to himself', but you're going to have to work up to that, I see, since you've made it so unpleasant to spend time with you.

Tomorrow night, no indication that he is in trouble for anything, okay? Look nice and smell good and flirt.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by CWMI
Look nice and smell good and flirt.


Lol, that is what I was born to do. Isn't it funny how you forget to do the simplest things?

It's weird because as he was saying 'im avoiding you because I dont want to be in trouble in with you' I realised he had never spelled it out like that for himself before and he could see the absurdity of it.

For me, a huge lightbulb went on. Because hes not around much,I grab him as soon as I see him for a 'relationship chat' aka as complaining, which is just making him run away.

Saw on another thread that apparently Dr H recommends speaking about the relationship only one day a week, at an agreed time.. I am considering this one but very unsure. surely sometimes things just come up? On the other hand it would stop him ducking for cover and avoiding me the rest of the time. Anyone tried it?

I had already stopped doing it on dates, but he acts like I am about to complain at him at any minute, even when we're somewhere fun. Think I have to spell it out to him that Im not going to do that..
Posted By: CWMI Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/11 09:58 PM
Don't spell out anything. Show him. Just stop doing it.

As for relationship talk just once a week and your assertion that things just come up...right now there's probably LOTS that come up, but do you really think you can get him out of withdrawal by nagging him with everything he's doing wrong?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/07/11 05:28 PM
So I was pretty excited about tonight, which I believe I mentioned to H last night. He called me this morning though telling me tonight was off, could we do Wednesday or Thursday instead. Im working late Thursday (which I had mentioned before) so that wasnt an option. He had forgotten he was helping his brother with his CV tonight, plus with his shifts, Tuesday is a school night for him, whereas Wednesday is not this week. He usually plays pool on Wednesdays but they aren't playing a team this week, so he and two lads from the team had arranged to go to a pub quiz instead this Wednesday. I have now been invited along to this.
At the time he called me I was being bright, breezy and upbeat with him - and desperate to just get some fun time with him - so I said ok to Weds. Since then though my morale has hit the deck. I feel I am constantly being shoved behind other priorities. On the upside, we both do like quizzes and have fun at them (we have few common interests). I was really upset this morning though and am not even sure why. He's cancelled on me before, usually its a complete cancellation too, this is just moving the day.
Just very sad to me thats hes not as keen as me about seizing the opportunity tonight. I know the CV thing wont take him more than an hour and we could have done something after that. Ive asked him to come home to dinner at least when he's done, but he was being vague with me and I know what that means.
But then, doh, he wont be as keen as me if hes in withdrawal and im not.

Did I do the right thing in agreeing?

Please someone tell me this distant moutaintop called intimacy is achievable!

Posted By: CWMI Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/07/11 05:40 PM
Hmmm...I know I've fallen real low when plans get changed or dropped, and recently, too. I refused to go along with my H changing the date, and instead we planned something entirely new. Which was fun, but didn't alleviate how I felt when the originally planned weekend came along...

I say if you're not enthusiastic about tagging along with his bar buddies, don't go. But it could be a chance to be a shiny little gift and have the guys wondering why your H doesn't want to hang out with you when you're so much danged fun. Do you already know these guys? Could they become allies? Would either of them be the type to say, "Dam, if I had that at home, you guys could go pound sand!" kwim?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/07/11 06:19 PM
They both do admire the way I look and have said so to my h in front of me. There not really allies, theyre very much his friends. I can have fun around them though and I intend to.

When Im done sulking! I have to put my smile on soon tho, H says he is coming home for dinner.

Helps masively just to hear 'ive fallen low too'
Posted By: CWMI Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/07/11 06:35 PM
Make a nice dinner! Let him know you like having him around. Is he coming home for dinner and staying, or is he grabbing a bite and leaving?

If he stays: just enjoy it. Drop a few words sometime during the evening, maybe something like, "Home feels so wonderfully full when you're here." Then DROP IT, no more 'relationship talk', just offer him some dessert or ask if he wants a pillow.

If he's noshing and splitting, get yourself cozy with a book or something, whatever your usual distraction is, kiss him good-bye and ASK him if he will give you a call if he will be later than [whatever time]. Or, make other plans out for yourself, and leave first, letting him know you'll be back at such-and-such, will call if you're going to be later. laugh

NO ANGRY STUFF.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/08/11 06:19 AM
So last night went q well. I didnt know if he was staying but I made a nice dinner and we settled down in front of TV. So, there was some touching, (I was holding his foot) even a kiss(!) before I went to bed. (The coaching came in real handy, i had to button my lip loas of times, but doing so helped)Got lonely though, so ended up coming back downstairs few ours later and saying I was stuggling to sleep, could Iwatch some more TV with him (in the past I would have asked him to come up) by the time the programme had finished he was asleep so I covered him up and kissed his head, only he wasnt asleep, an said thanks. I asked was he comfy, he said not really and I told him to come up in a bit if he wasnt..

So he did come up for like the first time in a week, even hough we werent snuggly or anything. So hard getting up this morning because Ive missed him so much..
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/08/11 06:12 PM
Bit apprehensive about going out with his friends later.He was a bit abrupt on the phone earlier. In recent weeks too, he has used the opportunity of being in company to take pot shot djs at me, where I cant respond. It can be quite embarrasing. Ive decided to treat it as a move into conflict, a good sign? Ill just carry on being pleasant if he does it tonight. Plus any complaints go onto a to do list for the ENs I need to meet.
Sound good?
Posted By: wannabophim Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/08/11 08:27 PM
Right now I would back of any relationship talk and your goal should be that "Time with you is pleasant". I am not saying to be a doormat, but make sure he doesn't dread time with you.
It's almost like you have to retrain him. Of course all this is assuming he is not having an affair or wants to have one with the widow or anything like that.

So if you generally enjoy going to pub quizzes and he invited you, then go. Don't second guess him and say "Are you sure you want me to come?" Don't analyze with him later and ask if he had a good time. Say something like "I had a great time with you tonight! It was nice seeing the guys. I hope we can do it again soon."
If he starts taking pot shots at you, have some phrases ready, such as "Ouch!" or "Do you know you said that out loud?"

But try to avoid that by praising him if he gets answers right and stuff like that.



Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/11 12:14 AM
Yes, im backing off realtionship talk, and before gaining this advice off you all, I hadnt even considered that as a serious problem. Now I see it as a failure to meet one of his most important needs - admiration. Its really helped. We had a good night all in all. Our table was lucky! We won the quiz and then I won a comp then my H won a comp which added to the atmosphere. It was kind of sad when halfway throuhg the night , we were left alone for a bit, and he nodded to my bottle of beer and said 'dont have so many of them that you start shouting at me'.
I cant believe how much I have hurt him in one night.
I'm not ruling out an affair. I think the state of our relationship means he would have been in great danger of an affair if he found her attractive or if she was in any shape to even think about men. But the more I look into it, it just seems unlikely by the day. If you all think I should do more snooping though, im not averse to it. My feeling is that he isnt dishonest when it comes to direct questions, but I do think he avoids telling me stuff.

He's pretty open about the fact that he thinks of leaving me. He tells me he would go abroad, (more job opportunities for him there) but that hes not ready to go until hes sure theres no chance.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/11 11:23 PM
Dont know whether this is paranoia or what, but getting steadily worried that at least an EA is going on. Need some snooping tips please. Apologies for the long post, but..

I drop by by widow friends house unexpectedly and my H is there. Says hes helping her son sort out his computer. He had led me to believe he was headed out elsewhere, but had been vague

My H then tells me hes off to play football and is then playing video games at a male friends house afterwards and 'would be home late so dont worry'. Drove past male friends house, his car not there. Went to my widow-friends house and his car is there. Called him and asked him how hes enjoying game night. He does tell me the truth - that he is in fact at hers. I tell him im heading over in a light hearted way.

He seems super pissed off with me when I turn up, says its late and he was just about to leave. She is friendly and chatty

While he's out the room I have a conversation with her in which i tell her things are going better. I tell her hes a bit stressed from work today, but that yesterday we had a great time at the quiz an 'snogged like teenagers' when we got home (which is all true). Her reaction was very strange.

I left first an dhe said he wouldnt be long but he took half an hour later than I did to arrive home, said he struggled to get petrol.

I was on the computer checking out MB stuff when he walked in and he was crazy interested in the screen, saying what's that? (I just had google up, having deleted history before he wlked in) He wanted to use the computer 'right now' without giving me a chance to log off (he doesnt have my password)

Because I hesitated and asked why, he is really annoyed with me.

However I did check his texts and there were messages between them mentioning the sons computer, and also that football and video games at the other friends house got cancelled
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 01:47 AM
This is what I was trying to tell you, indie. You need to snoop like a bloodhound.

Here's the thing: your H lost his dear friend. He is in mourning. Dear friend's wife lost her husband. SHE is in mourning over the same person. They have this hugely emotional mutual loss that needs to be comforted. This is a dangerous (for your marriage) thing for them to have in common. They may naturally comfort each other. NOT GOOD.

Yes, it may be (and probably IS) an EA. You need to stop this now before it becomes a PA, and it most assuredly will.

I'm sorry, indie. I never like to be right about this. But I think I am, and I think you need to get to work quickly.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 06:02 AM
How though specifically? I had a look on the Operation Investigate forum and couldnt see anyting that a) I could afford (very limited budget, he would also see any big spends) b) that would work for us.
Hes very open (and insistent) about going to see and 'support' her. Proving thats where hes going when away from me would achieve what? Im also pretty sure that any cozy chats would take place at her house. Last night I did notice for the first time that he seems to be keeping his htc a lot closer to him. Think he suspects me of snooping. I wouldnt know where to start about checking out his phone and our laptop, hes much more tech savvy then me. Voice Activated Recorder would prob work, he would prob call her from his car, but I cant seem to find much on one I cn buy in the UK.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 12:05 PM
Found hotel recipt today from last month. No room charge but its a residents bill and has a room number on it also has departure date and bar charges for an evening meal and a morning charge wich looks like coffee. He did say something last month about going to a business function with a group of guys to see about new job leads. He said he would be staying over with a work friend nearby to my (vague) recollection. The bill is about the right price for a bottle of wine, then a meal for two. Doesnt look good does it guys. Not sure what to do with it. Do I put it back in his pocket even? He must have forgotten about it to leave it there. And who paid for the room?
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 01:55 PM
(((Indie)))

I am so sorry. First things first - stay calm and do not let on that you suspect anything. This is a battle of "wits".

A voice activated recorder in his car would be ideal. Can you buy a prepaid visa at the grocery store and use that to purchase the VAR?

If it helps you feel any better, you have the advantage here because you are here at MB and have already learned the principles.

Stay strong! You will get through this.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 02:16 PM
I can get my sister to buy it and give her the cash. More concerned which one / where in Uk can I buy? Need to hear from someone who has used one. Have posted in the snooping forum.

Just found his shift rota (hidden beneath the laptop) so I at least now he IS going to work tonight like he says he is.

He is majorly hostile towards me now, this has been almost to the minute since I told our widow friend about us kising. I feel unwell today (wonder why) and said a hug would make me feel better ('a hug wont make you better') I said I wouldnt call him at work tonight if he was going to be too busy 'why would you call me at work' then he went off in a major huff.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
He is majorly hostile towards me now, this has been almost to the minute since I told our widow friend about us kising. I feel unwell today (wonder why) and said a hug would make me feel better ('a hug wont make you better') I said I wouldnt call him at work tonight if he was going to be too busy 'why would you call me at work' then he went off in a major huff.

Indie,
Try to understand what is going on here. He is being hostile because it makes you seem like the bad guy and justifies the EA in his own mind.

Do not fall for this and strike back at him. It only serves to justify it more in his own mind.

PLAN A. Loving and caring wife.

Ask the moderators to move your thread to SAA.

Hugs.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 03:46 PM
One thing I am really concerned about is his ability to see what im writing here. Im deleting my internet history and have changed my password. Wanted to download a programme yesterday though and the administrator's password didnt work. I think its been changed. Hes quite IT savvy and showed interest in the computer the other night. Wanted to change the admin p/w so I could install spyware. I could call up the service provider, but wouldnt that tip him off?
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 04:25 PM
Indie,

Have you asked the moderators to move your thread to SAA? You will get great advice over there from many posters who have been where you are right now.

I'm not IT person but I don't think service provider can help you. Try customer support at the computer manufacturer's site. Can't remember admin password section.

Reset password to original password. This may fool your H into thinking he has gone crazy or it may not. I don't know.

It is important that he not know that you suspect anything.

Indie, don't panic right now. Get what info you can and come back here before doing anything. Please move your thread to SAA.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 04:38 PM
I have - its just click notify right?
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 04:40 PM
I think so. Give it a try.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I have - its just click notify right?
Yep, you're over here now. I'm sorry, indie.

Okay. Don't concentrate on the laptop - you've got another good tool in the VAR. Get it and get it hidden in the car. I would suggest you spring the coin for a better model. The cheaper ones can have poor reception.

I'm not sure if you mentioned this - can you get his cell phone? You can download spyware on it if you can. Can you access his cell phone records?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 06:52 PM
FYI in the 'spring cleaning' im doing today, am turning up a lot of other deceptions. Things told me about money, how much he pays on mortgage, how much he earns etc,are not tallying with some paperwork im finding...

Wondering what on earth is the point.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 07:14 PM
Thanks maritalbliss,

He took his HTC into the bathroom this morning, and last night, Ive seen texts but think theres been some thought put into avoiding something so obvious. I think a HTC is harder to spyware judging by other posts. (and he upgraded to one around about the time things really hit the skids) I am also not sure of the model which the spyware site asked me for. I guess he has to shower sometime tho.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 07:18 PM
Is staying at my mums a good idea tonight? I do it a lot, it wouldnt look weird. Thinking of sending a breezy let me know if you wanna do anything this weekend text, letting hi now im staying over..

Think hes freaking and a bit of space might help
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Is staying at my mums a good idea tonight? I do it a lot, it wouldnt look weird. Thinking of sending a breezy let me know if you wanna do anything this weekend text, letting hi now im staying over..

Think hes freaking and a bit of space might help
Hell, no, it's not a good idea! Nooo Never give an adulterer 'space'. They'll take it every time.

ETA: Unless, of course, you can tell him you're staying there and then snoop him to see if he goes to OW's. That's a thought.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 07:44 PM
I like it! But, hed just say he stopped by to say hello, and that hed fallen asleep or some nonsense. Would be interesting tho, would give me some idea.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/11 07:44 PM
Wouldnt it also make them relax?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/11/11 11:52 AM
Failed to find anything while snooping last night but a sunset and some tears.

Came home very early in the morning (as I knew my h would be using the bed, rather than couch, without me there.) Took advantage of the sitch and snuggled him. He kinda allowed it. Made us brekie, nice morning on the couch. Makes up about 14 hours UA time this week. Thanks so much everyone, never managed to achieve that before.

He went upstairs and showered (to go out)taking his phone first into the toilet then into the bathroom too. Came down much grumpier, I said I liked his shirt and went to kiss him. He said I was 'making a fuss'. I said cool and asked if he wanted his washing hanging if i was around later.

Told him I would be out late with some old friends. Going to sisters to order the VAR. Think his HTC phone will be a problem. Never out of his hand.

Do I have to decide if I am to give this marriage a shot by a deadline? Before I expose? Still reeling and veer from thinking hes deceived me from day one - about money and lots of things - to thinking this affair was inevitable but is solvable. Sometimes think imagining whole thing.

I also dont know if I want the effort of having to drag my marriage up a hill with someone who doesnt want children. That was a big concession for me.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/11/11 11:53 AM
sorry meant sunrise!
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/11/11 01:00 PM
Quote
Failed to find anything while snooping last night but a sunset and some tears.
indie, tell us more about your snooping last night. Did you cruise OW's house to see if your WH was there? How many times?

I should have been more specific about this. When you went to stay at your mother's, you should have been cruising OW's house about once every hour or so. This would have potentially been an all-night snoop. You'd need to cruise your own place to determine if he just stayed home, as well as the parking lots of any bars or restaurants he frequents. The goal was to see where he would go if he thought you were with your mother for the night.

What snooping did you do last night?

Quote
Do I have to decide if I am to give this marriage a shot by a deadline?
Don't concern yourself with long-term plans at this point. Find out what he's up to, first.

I can tell you that the hallmark redflag of an adulterer is taking the phone into the bathroom with them. Unless they are waiting for a kidney or other critical communication where seconds count, NO ONE makes it a rule to take the phone into the bathroom with them. My H did the same thing. I couldn't figure out why he would take his phone into the bathroom when he showered. If he was waiting for a call he couldn't have heard it over the running water. Now that I'm a survivor of betrayal, I understand that he didn't take his phone in there so that he could hear it - he took it in there so that I wouldn't be able to hear it, or pick it up.


ETA: Can you get a GPS unit for his car? That'll eliminate having to physically track him.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/11/11 01:43 PM
I guess. I have no idea where to look for a VAR or GPS. Am going to search now. I am a bit more inspired to spend money now after trekking streets. I cruised by a few times but in the space of one hour. Which was a bit rubbish I suppose. Feel very conspicuous on her street its narrow and nowhere to hide at all. My car is very identifiable and theyve already caught me there once, had to pretend id knocked for her and she hadnt heard. They didnt buy it, i dont think i was called up and quizzed about it.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/11/11 01:45 PM
Also have a 'girls night in' with OW on Monday. Feel like pouring some love busting poison in her ear about how well me an h doing. Opinions?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/11/11 01:50 PM
Totally confused about which VARS are suited to my purpose after having a look online. Any recommendations for ones can be bought UK? Also where do you put in car?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/11/11 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Totally confused about which VARS are suited to my purpose after having a look online. Any recommendations for ones can be bought UK? Also where do you put in car?
We've got a couple of Brits on here who might be able to help you with where to purchase a VAR and GPS (paging Sugar Cane!)

Use velcro to attach the VAR to a place in his car that he doesn't access much (under the front seat, in a hidden spot around the steering column, in the empty space near the glove compartment - different cars have different spots. Look around to determine the best spot.)
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/11/11 06:06 PM
Hi Indi I'm in the uk. You can pick up a gps spy tracker device on eBay from the uk it reads well as in it's discreet and it can be set up for text alerts or installed onto your pc. To find it type in the search on eBay gps tracking device mobile spy surveillance tracker it's about ļæ½80.

The var can also be found on eBay. Many sold in the uk. Sorry that's the best I can find no one sells them anywhere else that I can find
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/11/11 06:17 PM
Two other things worth thinking about

You know the OW so you could always install a VAR in her car/house , and if your having a girly night in with her I would look out for any opportunity to look at her phone when she goes to the toilet etc it's likely that if your going to find anything it will be on her phone as she is unlikely to delete calls or messages like your WH would.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/11/11 11:01 PM
thanks for tip brutally honest,

Just had text from h. Hes been very vague all day about where hed be this evening. I texted him and asked could I come meet up with him, where was he. He said 'no thanks enjoying some quiet time'. He then said he was meeting a trusted male friend of ours. I would class him as an ally of mine, in spite of my bad judgement with friends recently! Said he needs some time to 'consider his life and where he's going'.

Could he be choosing between us? I could speak to and 'feel out' the friend, but its risky.

Have been a space cadet all day and any people who speak to me are really annoying.

Am starting to realise why my h is so annoyed when I ask him stuff sometimes.. People who demand your full attention (aka me) are the absolute worst ones.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 06:38 AM
Very odd happenings last night. I had not told him where id be at end of the night, because when i suggested I 'could' stay at mums, he said 'up to you'. In spite of not knowing where I was, and that id been using mobile to text him, he called the landline of our house, which I didnt answer, letting it ring out (to see if i was
there?).

He never called my mobile. This was at approx pub closing time, so I got into my car and whizzed round to ow house in case i could catch him going in via taxi (his car at our place). Of course I could have missed him leaving her house in taxi.

Then swooped back to our house where the lights were now on. He was now home alone. Why would he need to see if I were home, if coming home and alone? Other poss is that he was after a lift and didnt want to disturb if i was in mums. This could have been done by text though and he doesnt ask me for anything lately. Have ordered a GPS and VAR, should be here few days.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 08:33 AM
Indie glad you got the monitoring equipment, hope you manage to find some concrete proof of the A.
Whats your plan once you get the evidence? Are you prepared for exposure?
Just to let you know the boards tend to be quiet at the weekend so hang on in there till the vets are back on Monday.

Found some useful uk companies that specialise in private detective business and catching unfaithful sposes I don't think your going to need them as you got the monitoring stuff but just in case let me know.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 12:04 PM
I dont know. He was being perfectly vile this morning. Treating me like I was crazy and clingy and paranoid because I offered him a lift. Having to keep a happy face on is fairly difficult but i am.

Rehashing his entire personality in my head. Ive always held him to be very intelligient, self aware and honest above reproach.

However this week Ive discovered that he has lied to me from the very start of our marriage about money, so he could indulge selfishly in whatever he wanted. He wasnt grieving for a friend then.

Hes also had to either quit or been made redundant from a number of jobs and start again. Its always been because hes been taken advantage of, people are jealous of him, people bully and push him out. I have supported all decisions realting to his job happiness, and made a number of sacrifices.

While snooping this week I found some emails from an old job in which a perfectly fine piece of constructive criticism was given to my h. He compltely went over board and refused to work with the guy again in his response.

Its always someone elses fault, if you dont agree with him you're wrong..

I am very much feling today that I would just be better off without hm.

But ive loved him almost half my life and it will a tough decision and I dont know if I can actually make it.

Also find myself considering reconcilliation just to get at her, which is not like me. I am classier than that.

Thanks so much for throwing out a lifeline, btuallyhonest. I see from the time of your post that your are getting about as much sleep as i am!

My sister wants to go up to the hotel from the receipt with me to check things out. Me to him 'was it a doulble room; Him : 'No' Me 'Another lie'
Posted By: Xau Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 01:00 PM
When you do get the VAR and GPS tracker hide it well there have been occasions when they come lose or found for other reasons. Start a journal collate all the evidence, keep it off the computer and somewhere very safe, always be aware of him trying to catch you out. Password protect your files.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 03:33 PM
hey indie,

I think its hard sometimes being in the UK where in all honesty there isnt much of a colture against A as there is in the US, the brits have a "everyone minds their own business" approach to A, family doesent get involved and friends arent as aggressive in supporting people end the A, and to top it all off legally there isnt anything in place a part from naming the OW in a divorce wich lets face it doesent really mean much when your marriage just ended.
My H used a Travel lodge, thats how classy the A was, so I am not sure how much info you can get from seeing the hotel.

its one thing if your H is acting in a predictably wayward way as a result of the A but its something else if the trust and immaturity issues he has have been there even before the A. I think that you can work with him and make him a better, happier person but he has to recognise his issues and by the sound of it he has never been able to do that. I would stick to the catching him out plan with some evidence then go nuclear exposure, what reaction do you expect to get from your friends and family?

If he refuses to giver her up then go dark plan B on him and take that time to think over what you want from life and work on recovering from the hurt you are going through now.

Hope you have a better evening today.


Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 03:41 PM
ps the vile treatment thing is honestly part of the Wayward behaviour handbook. My WH never ever ever said a bad word to me before the A, he used to be so respectful and caring even when i didnt deserve it. He was reserved and never made a scene, chased me for cuddles all day and got depressed if i didnt kiss him atleast once a day. fastforward to his A and not only did i get called names, i got pushed away if i wanted a cuddle and got called lympet as according to him i was clingy, got screamed at in public and even got hit once, he was a monster.

Dont take anything your WH does right now to heart I promise you if it wasnt for him having an A he would not be treating you like this. He is a WAYWARD and he is acting like a person on crack.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
He was being perfectly vile this morning.

Quote
However this week Ive discovered that he has lied to me from the very start of our marriage about money
When a person of the lie has constructed a "house of cards" and it starts to crumble around them, they become desperate. The chaos and ruin is never their fault. They have NO INSIGHT into why their life is unraveling. Do not expect any insight from this man at this time.

Please, be careful.
His vile words could become something worse.

This is not to say there is no hope.
I am saying, he has extra work to do because he has constructed a life build on a foundation of lies, not just the adultery.

You need to set the "return to the marriage" bar especially HIGH for this WH of yours.
I assume you want to avoid a miserable "rest of your life" marriage based on lies.

Quote
I am very much feling today that I would just be better off without hm.

Feelings will change daily.

Hang in there.
Take EXCELLENT care of yourself.
Protect yourself in all ways.
Emotionally.
Spiritually.
Physically.
Financially.

You are important and your life matters.



Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
Two other things worth thinking about

You know the OW so you could always install a VAR in her car/house , and if your having a girly night in with her I would look out for any opportunity to look at her phone when she goes to the toilet etc it's likely that if your going to find anything it will be on her phone as she is unlikely to delete calls or messages like your WH would.
Careful with setting up the spy stuff in her house, indie. If you're caught it's an invasion of privacy.

Of course, if her phone is laying right there...and she's in the bathroom... whistle Although unfortunately, I strongly suspect that her phone will be as glued to her hip as your H's is to his.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 04:45 PM
SORRY KNOW THIS IS TOO LONG!!

Thanks Xau, did lots of password stuff last night.

Brutally Honest - I expect the affair being roundly condemmned, friends family everyone. His parents are very close to me, OW's parents dont like his babysitting for her (I had thought that was 'old fashioned' Ha!) I dont know how active people will be, though. They may get some misplaced compassion for the grieving etc.

It will be full exposure too. I have been so puzzled and couldnt understand why I was losing my life because of all the secrecy. OWs children will lose another man in their life, who could have been there with me in tow, because of the secrecy. The kids grieving paternal grandparents will be roundly horrified (her MiL doesnt like her anyway). I am most worried about my dad killing my h - he wont support any reconcilliation. My mum and sister say its not clear cut. Sometimes it feels clear cut one way then the other. Other times I wish for a time machine so I could go post on here back when I first started feeling really unhappy.

Secret secrets are no fun, secret secrets hurt someone.


My h doesnt speak to his brother over a very minor spat 15 years ago. If he wants me, as well as insisting on no contact, counselling and full transparency, I am considering making him apologise to his bro. His bro has invited him to his wedding this year and asked him in person too. My h 'wished him all the best' but refused.
I dont expect it will be sincere, but if he agrees to be civil, apologise, and go to the wedding, it will show me he's serious abot facing up to his mistakes and flaws. Plus his parents will be made very happy.

And someone should get something out of all of this.


BH - how is your other half behaving towards you now? Is it worth it?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
Two other things worth thinking about

You know the OW so you could always install a VAR in her car/house , and if your having a girly night in with her I would .
Careful with setting up the spy stuff in her house, indie. If you're caught it's an invasion of privacy.

Of course, if her phone is laying right there...and she's in the bathroom... whistle Although unfortunately, I strongly suspect that her phone will be as glued to her hip as your H's is to his.


You know, I think you're right! Also been remembering things all day about her. The way she liked other peoples boyfriends when we were younger, Her asking me if 'I really could give up children" Her promising me she would tell him to include me more with babysitting etc, and doing nothing. Him insuting me, the way I look, my intelligience, being 'boring' in front of her.....
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Also find myself considering reconcilliation just to get at her, which is not like me. I am classier than that.

Indie,

This is what betrayal does to you. It makes you rewrite what you thought was your life. It makes you do and think things that are completely out of character.

It is good that you recognize this. Keep it in check and live your life in a way that you can be proud of. Like the classy person that you are. Don't get pulled down to their level ... you will regret it later.

Right now, keep your H and OW feeling comfortable ( as in not suspecting you of snooping) so that you can find out what is really going on.

Then you can make the decisions about your future.

Have you thought about putting a VAR under the sofa? For the times when you are out? Maybe he is actually calling and not texting when you are not around.

Have you tried to see his phone bill online? I was able to set up an online account for my H phone without his knowledge.
I pretended to be him as I set it up online. It was easy since I knew all the personal details necessary. I don't know the legality of this ... but I felt I was OK given that it was part of the marital property.

Stay strong.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 06:37 PM
Indie, I am not sure about privacy laws here there might be a problem with my suggestion, she doesent sound like a nice person at all, how did her H pass?

As far as my WH behaviour towards me goes, its much better, he doesnt call me names, reject me or anything like that, he hit me last year and i called the police straight away as i was not going to put up with that behaviour especially since in 10 years of marriage he had never laid a finger on me, this worked and shook him to the core, since then he has not had any angry outburst at all phisical or verbal.
He chases me for cuddles all the time and its me thats cut off right now not him. I am at the stage where unfortunately due to numerous excuses and weakness in character i did not follow the MB plan and therefore find myself 3 years post A unhappy and depressed. Had I understood MB principals at the start there is no doubt i would be in much better shape married or on my own.
I am reading up on MB on my own at the moment trying to get a good understanding of the principals, he has noticed this and checking the pc history bar i have noticed he has been reading up on mb material (not forum) so I am hoping to have a good talk with him soon as to tackling the MB principals together.

I think it is worth it if you love that parson and if you want to be married to that person and still beleive in the vows you made when you got married (for better or worse). What your limit of tollerance is, thats up to each person how many compromises they are willing to make. To me a life with no children would be a hard one to cope with.

Your family sounds great, glad you will be able to rely on them when all this kicks off.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 06:43 PM
Pepperband I have a feeling your wisdom is well earned. Your post about the list made me cry. It is just the sort of gesture my h used to love making, I would endure anyhting to get that man back. Have no idea who this new stranger is.

Your post about the steps to adultery made me sick, because I know they are true.

He is a bit of an overeager boyscout. Cannot resist going above and beyond to help people, likes people to think him salt of the earth. His giver used to exasperate me, thats how bad it was. He made too many sacrifices. Blames me for them too. I took a lot though and forced things through.

He thought he could live his friends life for him. Thought he could watch over his kids and his wife - and all the practical day to day stuff that entails - and yet still be a good husband to me. I thought it would pass. I am as stupid as he is.

He was arrogant. I know that even when the dangerous feelings came, he will have stuck 'loyally' to the 'duty' he undertook. He will have vowed to himself that he could handle it.

Pride comes before a fall.

Pokerface - I have no idea how to do that with his phone account. Do I just visit the providers website?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 06:52 PM
Thansk brutalyhonest, My family is great. The idea of moving away scares me. She should move.

I dont know why I thought shed turned into the virgin mary because shed been widowed. My h used to hate her actually. Ive always liked her because she is fun. Her h died in a very sudden tragic accident. We were all knocked sideways. Me and my h didnt really do anything, not even cook, for months. My h's best friend was my good friend too and I loved him very much. I cried daily. I wasnt allowed to be selfish in my grief though.

Need to read more about Plan A and B. I am already sick of smiling.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 06:57 PM
I wonder if she thinks his voice is sexy when he calls her, like I do. The first time he called me up for a date I nearly swooned. What am I saying. Everyone thinks his voice is sexy. She has definitely said so. He definitely calls her.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Pokerface - I have no idea how to do that with his phone account. Do I just visit the providers website?

Yes. verizonwireless.com or sprint.com or whoever the provider. Or call his cell provider and ask them how to register for online account.

I suspect that you may get all the proof you need for exposure once you have the usage logs. i.e. "just friends" don't call/text each other all hours of the day and night.

This is what proved it for me. Calls all day long and into the night. That was all I needed.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 07:34 PM
Indie,

PLAN for a proper exposure and start now.

Start to get your list together.

Do NOT warn or threat exposure. This allows them to spin their story and discredit you as just a jealous wife.

Exposure is done all at once. And should be completely unexpected.

Be prepared for H to be furious. He will say things like ... I was going to try to work it out with you but now you have destroyed that... blah blah blah.

Do not let this throw you. You have done nothing but state the truth and ask for help in recovering your M.

Try to find the link for exposure letters and prepare what you will say or write. Sorry I don't have a link for you ... I will try to find one.

Do your work ahead of time and do it right.

Post your plan here first. We can help you avoid making the mistakes that we made.

Start your plan now.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 07:48 PM
It will take more than that with me I suspect. He was very upfront and honest about the level of texting and phoning initially 'What do you expect her to do when she's so upset' 'The night are hardest for her' 'Why arent you calling her and texting her as much as I am?'. Now he says he isnt telling me anything or talking to me, because 'what is the point'

I have a feeling now it was a slow burning EA from the first months of bereavement. A year after the death he gave me the no kids talk. He couldnt explain why he didnt want them very well though. I accused him of trying to make me break up with him. He made me pay dearly in guilt for this accusation.

Now my faith in my insticts has returned. At that time i told him i couldn't understand him at all and I was seriously considering leaving him. I told him I loved him more than life itself and that I wanted him to be happy. I told him he would not be happy if I spent my life resenting him because he couldnt even explain his swift change of heart.

He took a few hours to process, came home all loved up. Said he didnt want to lose me, said he would try to encourage good feelings towards kids by being around them more.

I see now it was a great coup for him. He had shown a dedicated effort to her that he had tried to get me to end the relationship in a shame free way for them. He had got me to agree to his babysitting for his mistress at the same time.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 08:13 PM
Indie,

I understand the dynamics here of him losing his DF and her losing her DH.

I also understand your H wanting to take care of his DF family.

I get all that and it breaks my heart for all of you.

You are not being unreasonable in wanting your H to be around for YOU.

It is NOT reasonable for your friend to expect YOUR H to meet all her needs. This is what family is for.

That said...what do you do? You can walk away and let your H become his DF or you can fight for your marriage. FWIW, I think you should do everything you can to save your M. Even if you don't succeed, you know you tried your hardest.

MB is your best chance for saving this. It is also your best bet at making you a stronger person and being able to recover yourself... no matter the outcome.

Have you read all the articles? Keep reading - start at the beginning.

Hugs
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 08:19 PM
Imho it's a case of hysterical bonding b/w them. A fantasy and SHE is however, a woman who is out of a husband now, and is maybe wanting somebody LIKE him to take his place.

I'd get a PI on it though. and I'd do the var in his car. Shut this affair down now. It's so hard and sad to think that she's stooping (posow) THIS low.

You know, she's unchained the KISA in him biig time w/her being his bf's widow. She is the poor widow who hasn't a man to help her anymore. She's centering on that to be what makes him respond to her.

and she will USE that card until the cows come home to explain away their "relationship" with each other, thus you need to get SOLID proof that this is an affair when you SHUT IT AND HER DOWN!

Sadly, I'd not have any mercy on her. She is trying to preserve herself and maybe her lifestyle now (if no man and he was top income earner in the relationship) and might stop at nothing to do so.

Make their "friendship" seem VERY VERY UGLY when you get the proof and expose. She is trying to make it into a nauseating affair story where "a grieving widow finds love in an unexpected place". That's how they want to paint this. Sad and scary.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 08:22 PM
quote=pokerface]
PLAN for a proper exposure and start now.

Start to get your list together.

Do NOT warn or threat exposure. This allows them to spin their story and discredit you as just a jealous wife.

Exposure is done all at once. And should be completely unexpected.[/quote]

List of who I would contact do you mean? Do I call or go round in person. Would prefer in person. When do I do that? After confronting him but not having told him I would?

My list would be
OW's inlaws
OW's parents
OW's sister
OW's friends, a married couple where the h had some sort of mysterious falling out with OW, but her wife is still friends.
H's parents
H's brother
H's cousin and our near neighbour.
H's godparents, who he respects massively
A guy in H's pool team, who no doubt would spread the word.
Our one remaining couple friends
A trusted male friend who i think is getting suspicious anyway
Two friends who went to school with H and deceased friend, recently reintroduced back into his life.
My dad
My brother and his wife ( oh god)
My sister's husband - a longstanding friend of mine, h's and ow.

Telling my lovely, crazy, overprotective father will also unleash the news on a legion of uncles, aunts and cousins.

I expect his mother will do the same with their extended family. In fact I know so.

I am glad our grandparents are dead. Truly.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 08:31 PM
Pokerface, maritalbliss, Pepperband, all of you, you are lovely, you are my lifejacket.

I dont take marriage lightly, I think you have to earn your way out, do everything that can possibly be done before quitting. I always felt this way but was at sea without a map. Thanks for the map guys.

I think our marriage was pretty good pre-bereavment on the whole. It was far too independent and liberal, but this was something we both agreed to because we had married so young. In fact our marriage was strong enough, because we were each other's first priority, to 'withstand the strain' of ib and still remain happy on the whole.

I see now though it left huge gaping holes.

I will insist (besides pretending she and her children dont exist) on the following
Children.
A joint bank account
FULL transparency of all he does and where goes and what he has
joint agreement on all decisions.
no opposite sex friends
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 08:37 PM
Yeah it is sick.

I dont have mercy for her, im not a saint and im not stupid.

She manages to do the necessary things for her kids

She manages to take increasingly good care of her hair and appearance

She has just built herself a lovely big new house with life insurance cash, and made great investments

She holds down a demanding senior job and has recently won a major battle with her bosses over a dispute

She is far from helpless and is not to be underestimated

I know for a fact she underestimates me and she is about to get woken up.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 08:40 PM
posow? KISA ? Still getting the hang of the shorthand im afraid?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 08:41 PM
btw her kids just FOLLOW him around. Little girl in particular is obsessed. How could she do this to them

He would make a great father.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
she doesent sound like a nice person at all, how did her H pass?


Just got on to this, did you suspect foul play!!
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 09:24 PM
Indie you are doing well because to be honest you have a good attitude towards this process so far you are committing to destroying this A by getting the concrete evidence and planning the exposure while holding a good poker face all the way.

Just wanted to say well done so far and hope that the secrecy part will end soon for you.

As far as suspect in my case it was a gut feeling and i always trust my gut feeling snooped and in 10 seconds found out what he was up to and he didnt put up much of a fight denying anything. Had a pretty easy ride compared to many on here, exposure was nuclear affair ended on DDay although they worked together for a year after the A and that killed (nothing happened after D Day between them as all the love they had for eachotehr turned into hate once exposure was out she tryed to cover her backside saying she didnt know he was married he covered his by saying she was an easy lay and had slept with many other colleagues, pretty much self distructed themselves). Humiliated the hell out of her by sending a very exposing and degrading email to all her friends on FB.

I am a great beleiver in exposure and by the sounds of what you ahve been writing your WH used to have alot of love for you so i dont think all is lost, just get rid of horrid woman out of his life and you might stand a chance. I dont care that she lost her husband to, many women are widowed and dont do what she is doing.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 10:28 PM
Just had something that was verging on our first honest conversation in two years, and it was thanks to all of you.

I finally manage to get him to answer his phone and he's all 'whts wrong now' and I just say i miss him and want to say goodnight. Say i am sorry i missed opportunity to have a drink with him this afternoon by his not anwering calls.

hes actually being pretty nice so I feel emboldended to say: "look babe I know something is going on that you feel like you cant talk to me about. I know you. If you cant talk to me, for the love of god talk to someone, because i can see the depression is killing you."

He actually starts to unburden himself. Says he can hear himself snapping at me and he hates it. He says he wants to tell me but i'm 'better off not knowing'. That I really dont want to know, its that bad. I say "At this point I dont care if youve murdered someone. Theres nothing worse than a secret that torments you, and confuses me".

I tell him I am his best friend first and foremost and that I will listen fully and sympathetically to whatever he wil say. I also suggest he might talk to certain trustworthy people, whose opinion I know he respects.
He asks me what time im In work tomorrow and says he cant tell me now because it would distract me from work! WHY DIDNT I LIE We go round in circles a bit. Then I tell him to think it over.

My mum just called asked me how im holding up. I tell her im doing great.
Posted By: Reynolds531 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/12/11 11:37 PM
Beware the "I love you but I am not in love with you" speech that will come.

It changes nothing, continue on plan! Wayward fog speak. He doesn't know his rear end from page ten right now.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 12:49 AM
Ive had a cover verion sang to me three months ago. 'I will always love you, when i go we'll stay friends'
Yeah right. hes here for a reason. Told me when he came home that hes been looking for jobs abroad, that its best he is alone. I told him nothing is achieved alone but that its his life. Has left his phone unguarded for first time. Not sure hes really asleep tho! argghghghghgh.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
posow? KISA ? Still getting the hang of the shorthand im afraid?

Indie,

click on notable quotes in the general forum for a list of abbreviations.

POSOW - this is one of my favorites and is short for: piece of shtt other woman.

I like your attitude. Just be careful not to strike back when he gets hostile or tries to pick a fight. Do not give him any reason to justify things in his own mind.

You are the loving and caring wife.

Good luck Indie.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by indiegirl
posow? KISA ? Still getting the hang of the shorthand im afraid?

Indie,

click on notable quotes in the general forum for a list of abbreviations.

POSOW - this is one of my favorites and is short for: piece of shtt other woman.

I like your attitude. Just be careful not to strike back when he gets hostile or tries to pick a fight. Do not give him any reason to justify things in his own mind.

You are the loving and caring wife.

Good luck Indie.


Cheers lovely. KISA isnt listed tho. and I have a feeling its fascinating! I LOVE POSOW. ykwim! Another fave is gaslighting. I should be gassed out by now. Every recolloction I had of things hed said which contradicted another thing he said was scornfully attacked. H said I 'dont listen' I 'dont remember' because I 'dont care'. It was very confusing because I would sit there and think. But i do care, Im sure? Where am I? Am I crazy?

Thats the really hurtful bit. The stuff he came up with on his own.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Thats the really hurtful bit. The stuff he came up with on his own.

Indie,

They all do this. They have to justify it in their own mind. Keep it in perspective. You now understand what is going on.

And you will NOT be friends IF he leaves ... but save that for the appropriate time. I am hoping that you will not get there.

Ignore the crazy things he is saying. Stick to your plan.

You are doing great.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
List of who I would contact do you mean? Yes. Sorry I wasn't clear. Do I call or go round in person. Would prefer in person. When do I do that? After confronting him but not having told him I would?

My list would be
OW's inlaws
OW's parents
OW's sister
OW's friends, a married couple where the h had some sort of mysterious falling out with OW, but her wife is still friends.
H's parents
H's brother
H's cousin and our near neighbour.
H's godparents, who he respects massively
A guy in H's pool team, who no doubt would spread the word.
Our one remaining couple friends
A trusted male friend who i think is getting suspicious anyway
Two friends who went to school with H and deceased friend, recently reintroduced back into his life.
My dad
My brother and his wife ( oh god)
My sister's husband - a longstanding friend of mine, h's and ow.

Telling my lovely, crazy, overprotective father will also unleash the news on a legion of uncles, aunts and cousins.

I expect his mother will do the same with their extended family. In fact I know so.

I am glad our grandparents are dead. Truly.

This is a great list. It sounds like everyone will be supportive and that will go a LONG WAY.

I will defer to the vets as to what method of exposure you should use. Nuclear exposure is usually recommended - meaning all at once. SHOCK AND AWE But this is hard if you are trying to meet everyone face to face.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 08:21 AM
Facebook bombing everybody is beginning to sound pretty good. Even people I work with who dont know him, will need to know what the hell is happening with me

Told you i dont like secrets!

Having done the list, I am beginning to feel I can only do important peeps in person. Her parent's h's parent's her mil an fil, i would then gather the family members of mine together who dont know to explain. Perhaps do the rounds of a few friends in the eve.

Having got thinking last night (one hours sleep btw) I think her sister may know of and support the A. For a start she is an OW herself, and shes made some very subtle remarks at my expense in past
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 01:13 PM
Got into a spat with him. Feeling more assertive, which is both good and dangerous. Merely called and asked if he needed to talk later, that id cancel my plans. He went deep into the fog, said that I just couldnt accept we had grown apart, that i didnt listen, yadayadayada. Says he is set on going abroad. No concrete plans though funnily enough.

Told him, I was only offering to help. I said he was talking BS and if he couldnt talk honestly to me he should pick a friend and go from there. When he accused me of being unhappy i agreed and said that my problem was easy to fix - just spend more time wih me.

Seems clear he needs a kick up the jacksie. Sorry for not listening to you all about his insight! WHEN will my recording equip arrive?! Im seeing ow tonight. Planning on telling her some things that will make her jealous, but also that im woried he could be depressed or something to throw them off the scent.

What is a good timescale for plan A and b and exposure?

In my head something like this.

Get irrefutable evidence.
Prepare exposure list and exposure letter
Prepare list of requirements he needs to meet if staying
Confront h.
Make him choose - me or her and agree to non contact, plus a list of other requirements if me.

If he chooses her do I have to stick around doing plan A? How long for? Dont think could last longer than a week. Go into plan B then if no success

If he initially chooses me, i would want to keep up some surveillance, so I wouldnt tell him about all my gadgets and evidence.

Regardless of his choice, I will carry out exposure either day of or day after confrontation.

Put up with abuse from him re the exposure, possibly her.

Keep going. Sound good?




Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 01:17 PM
Do you go or stay in the house while doing plan B?

He would have nowhere to go, (family troubles) I would have my mum and dads house and a wealth of support to help me through it. Id be treated like a princess.

Or is letting him stay in an empty house with total freedom a disaster? I could cut off paying bills, though, he cant afford it alone.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 01:26 PM
Indie just concentrate on one task at a time, right now put your energy into getting evidenvcevand work on exposure. There is little point right now in working on the things he needs to meet in order for you to agree to carry on with marriage, trust me when I say your a looong way off this point.

All sorts of things are going to kick off once the A is out and confirmed, and rarely this involves a WH agreeing to anything that involves giving up the OW. There will be excuses, denials and a lot of manipulation ( just like a drug dependant person coming off the drugs).

You are kind of doing a plan A now, carry on with plan a after exposurebut be careful not to enable the A (more info and advice on this around MB) .

if your WH carries on having contact with the OW it's time to go to plan B. But again you need to do a lot of reading on both these plans so right now concentrate on exposure and snooping only.



Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Do you go or stay in the house while doing plan B?

He would have nowhere to go, (family troubles) I would have my mum and dads house and a wealth of support to help me through it. Id be treated like a princess.

Or is letting him stay in an empty house with total freedom a disaster? I could cut off paying bills, though, he cant afford it alone.



The whole idea of plan B is to concentrate on you and cut off a WH. You do not take part in what he does and you don't worry about where he lives etc. You just worry about you that's it, he got himself in this mess with no help from you so he doesn't need any help figuring out his life once you cut him off, and you certainly do not do anything to make his life comfortable, after all he says he wants his own life without you then show him the reality of this.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Do you go or stay in the house while doing plan B?

He would have nowhere to go, (family troubles) I would have my mum and dads house and a wealth of support to help me through it. Id be treated like a princess.

Or is letting him stay in an empty house with total freedom a disaster? I could cut off paying bills, though, he cant afford it alone.



The whole idea of plan B is to concentrate on you and cut off a WH. You do not take part in what he does and you don't worry about where he lives etc. You just worry about you that's it, he got himself in this mess with no help from you so he doesn't need any help figuring out his life once you cut him off, and you certainly do not do anything to make his life comfortable, after all he says he wants his own life without you then show him the reality of this.

Right Brutallyhonest. It is also about protecting yourself from his toxic behaviour and thus completely depleting any love that you have left for him.

He leaves NOT you.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 02:08 PM
[/quote]



He leaves NOT you. [/quote]

Even if I would prefer the support of my family? Im not sure the reason behind this concept. Going to do some reading...
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 02:31 PM
Quote
Even if I would prefer the support of my family? Im not sure the reason behind this concept. Going to do some reading...
Yep. You don't want him to be able to say that YOU left HIM, for starters. Next? It's your house too, right? Why should YOU, the innocent party, have to leave your home for HIM, the guilty party? Then there's always what you've already mentioned: don't give him the room and freedom to carry on in YOUR home.

Going home to mother is not the kind of support you want right now. Stand your ground.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 02:37 PM

Indie,

If he makes the choice to leave the M because he is not willing to meet your conditions, then HE leaves the house. The house is part of the M. You stay. Leaving the M includes leaving the marital house.

This does not mean that you cannot have the support of your family and to stay with them whenever you wish.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 03:33 PM
Got it. Thanks god for you all.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 06:13 PM
He's just tried trapping me again with his circular arguments of why he can neither stay nor go.

He says he cant stay because I am unhappy - translation, I know I am neglecting you but I just want you to be ok with it.

He says he cant go because 'its not as easy as that to just throw away a big part of your life' - translation you meet most of my needs and I want you to hang around constantly waiting for me so I can be happy getting a few needs met elsewhere as well.

I said he can stay and I will work with him to make us both happy.

I said if he is just too miserable to stay, he should go, the door will be left open.

Had a look at EN's and think his top five are:
1. Admiration - he'll do a favour for anyone if they sing his praises, but criticism turns him into a swirling vortex. I think this one is where the OW has me beat.
2. Physical attractiveness. He used to go on about my looks all the time and even now when he's using put downs, he compliments me to other people when he thinks I dont know. This is my strong point I would say and I wandered past him in a wee nightie last night that got a very gratifying double take.
3. Affection - this was and is being met, though probably elsewhere too.
4 domestic support - he likes being comfortble at home and with a nice meal. Has just said he only goes out to avoid criticism, which I think true. We are both terrible housekeepers though. She is a neat freak. If I dont know whether hes going to be home as well, I dont plan nice food.
5.Recreational companionship. The closest people in his life are drinking budies. The pub is the centre of his world, because sport and quizzes and praise are there. When I scaled down on drinking, because we're not in our twenties any more, I think this damaged how fun he saw me as being. She drinks like a fish.

He talks about financial support a lot, but I think this is more based upon admiration. He wants to be seen to be doing more than he actually is.

Her superior financial sitch is a draw right now, but he would actually be very unhappy playing second fiddle.

I see now, I didnt admire him enough and nit picked. His doing huge favours for the OW in her vulnerable state was doubly dangerous then. I then badgered him about the things he was neglecting.

Admiration is a toughie, because how do you admire the way he is behaving right now? Id raher make him twenty stews and iron every faric thing in the house

Off to see the widow now..
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 06:20 PM
Quote
He's just tried trapping me again with his circular arguments of why he can neither stay nor go.
I would not allow him to pull you into his drama, indie. The next time he starts that, switch the subject.

"I'm so sorry you feel that way, dear, and I know it's something we can tackle together. Would you like a nice stew for dinner tonight?"

"I'm so sorry you're feeling so down right now, dear, and I know we can solve this together and make a great marriage. Can I get you some tea?"

Etc.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 06:40 PM
The anniversary of OW H's birthday tomorrow. Apparently neither of them plan to mark it particularly. hes out 'by himself' she has just cancelled our plans because she hasnt slept the last few nights.
Very irritating. Cant go snoop either,its too bright, too conspicuous and he would just say changed his mind and needed to check on her. The postman needs to hurry up with my equipment.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 06:42 PM
Love it. I told him to call me if late too because I will worry if not.

Ticks the affection box and helps me somewhat.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
The anniversary of OW H's birthday tomorrow. Apparently neither of them plan to mark it particularly. hes out 'by himself' she has just cancelled our plans because she hasnt slept the last few nights.
You don't know this. They could very well have plans that they have not shared with you.

Do you have a trusted friend who can drive past her house to see if he's there? If he is there, I would make it a point to be 'worried about her' because of her H's birthday, so you just decided to swing by and check on her. Like your H is doing. whistle
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 07:00 PM
Oh it's total BS, they are together but I get the feeling she was sounding me out. Dont want to sound any more alarm bells with them, since I wont get anything concrete tonight. A few days ago I told a worried male friend that I was worried about my h, very dark moods and strange behaviour (which is true far as goes) A few days earlier I had told OW that we were happier than ever to wind her up. When cancelling our plans she said she was 'worried about' my H. then repeated what I had said to the friend. I just said I was too and that he is happy one minute, preoccupied the next.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 07:01 PM
There isnt anyone I trust aside from my sis an theyd know her car a mile away.

Everyone is too known to each other
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
There isnt anyone I trust aside from my sis an theyd know her car a mile away.

Everyone is too known to each other
Have you considered a PI? That may be your fastest, best way to get the info on this.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 08:04 PM
Yes, not really got the funds though - although I admit, dont know what the going rate is.

The main drawback to PI is they are very open about spending time together. In the beginning they saw it as genuinely innocent so are always defending his right to drop by spontaneously and staying for hours. They use the grief card and anyone who doesnt understand that has a dirty mind - they would say.

I see im not as welcome tho,

Even if PI saw them in a cafe or bar theyd back themselves up to the hilt, need to talk away from her kids so as not to upset them.Though i suppose they might kiss on the street in certin parts of town.

I feel it needs solid evidence to crack them as its public opinion will bring them down. They need to be defenceless.

If they went to a hotel it would work, but for all i know that was a one off. Probably because she has the run of her house once kids in bed.

Might they be indiscreet on the doorstep for a PI? I dont see it as likely because her neighbours are her parents friends.

Its a good plan b if the gadgets dont get the goods. Hoping they arrive tomorrow.

Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 09:35 PM
Just dropping by to give you a big "you go gurl!" It's musical to hear your fighten' words!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 09:50 PM
Cheers, I have to be pushy for a living. And the other bad people ive taken down never promised to love me forever while i was all wide eyed and wearing a ļæ½2000 dress.

Especially as the put downs hes been giving me lately are tailored along the lines that im dizzy and useless

He should really know better. but then hes with a skank tonight instead of with me so whattaya gonna do?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 10:11 PM
I think she is trying to get him to get me to leave. He wants me to just hang on in misery. After the failure of his little rant earlier to make me mad, or plead, he left. I actually saw him holding his head in his hands as he walked down the path!!

There was just enough time for him to call her before she called me to cancel our plans. Then I was scouted out for my opinion - not because she suspects me of snooping after all maybe but because she suspects him of being what he is - a cheater.

I dont think she trusts him now after my kissing and telling. I hope they are having a lovely time!!
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/11 11:56 PM
Indie If you decide to go through a PI I found a uk nationwide company (I don't know where in uk you are I'm in London) that specialises in affairs. I came across them when I was looking for the monitoring equipment I'm happy to pass on their details. You can always give them a call ask for a quote and see if they can help in your circumstances.

I really hope the monitoring equipment will reveal something just don't tell your WH how you got your I formation until you have a lot of concrete evidence so your exposure can be truly nuclear and they won't have a chance to make any excuses.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 12:47 AM
Quote
The main drawback to PI is they are very open about spending time together.
Did you tell him that you would prefer that he not spend time with her? Have the two of you talked about this at all?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 12:50 AM
Just confronted him. Found a text 'Just to let you know i am in love with you'. He text back 'love you too.'

Thought I would do it before he deleted it.

With the receipt is pretty good.

Am still going do the surveillance thing
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 12:51 AM
he scarpered of ourse, two guesses where.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Just confronted him. Found a text 'Just to let you know i am in love with you'. He text back 'love you too.'

Thought I would do it before he deleted it.

With the receipt is pretty good.

Am still going do the surveillance thing
Oh, damn. I was afraid of that. They aren't in love, indie. They're in 'needs meeting.'
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 12:55 AM
o i know

What next!! Help
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 12:56 AM
I said he had a selfish face

thts not really plan A is it
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 12:59 AM
Well, now you have some proof anyways.

What you need to do is get Plan A down pat for a brief time and then Plan B. You need to expose nuclear style. You will need to do both the carrot and the stick of Plan A, while getting all of your ducks in a row for Plan B.

You will need to calm down a bit to be able to pull off a good Plan A. I am so sorry that you had to see that. I know how hard it is. Believe me, I do. hug
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 01:06 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
o i know

What next!! Help
Now you expose to everyone - FB friends and family. Do you understand how to expose?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 01:45 AM
i didnt foward text though, hands shaking an i dont do smartphones. Still i saw it.

Thy both denying everyting to hilt. H said he had feelings for her, but hadnt done anythng about it, when i said did he want to, he said he didnt know.

she pretended he hadnt called her, called in reply to my clls, said shed only textd 'love you'
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 01:54 AM
Now is time to expose via facebook! Expose! Cut and paste their "email' to each other and find the FB exposure letter written here by Brits' Brat (she's great) and SCORCH THE EARTH with this stuff!!!

This is a very desperate ow imho. She is after your husband 100 percent and even using her fatherless kids as bait too. She is trying to make your husband STEP IN now her husband is dead. He feels like a knight in shining armour "saving" this horrible woman, but it is ugly. SHOW THIS AFFAIR FOR WHAT IT IS..UGLY AND SINFUL AND WRONG.

Bust it up NOW! She is your enemy. Cut your ties to her, draw the line in the sand and begin exposing HER AND THE AFFAIR and DO NOT HESITATE! They both were gaslighting you and that is a form of mental abuse, where people try to make you think that what you KNOW is not the truth or what you HEAR is not really what you heard. It is a very painful form of emotional abuse and a particular favorite way to torture a betrayed wife or husband at the hand of a vile ow/om or even wayward spouse.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 01:57 AM
Should I facebook this - now? Its DFs birthday

Hello everybody

This is just a letter to inform you all that H my husband and OW my friend have been having an affair. You may know that they began comforting each other following DF's death.

His support for her was a problem for me from the first, because I was actively excluded. She 'couldn't talk' as well when I was there, according to him.

He thought he could live his friend's life for him. Thought he could watch over his kids and his wife - and all the practical day to day stuff that entails - and yet still be a good husband to me. I thought it would pass.

From her I received very patronising marital advice. When I told her I felt excluded she nodded but did nothing. I trusted them both implicitly.

Often the lies I was told contradicted each other. If I noticed this I was sternly criticised. I 'didn't listen properly' I 'didn't remember' because I 'didn't care'.

In fact I cared a great deal and on top of my loneliness and abandonment, I had to watch him bond with another woman in front of my eyes.

I was often criticised in front of her by him, but this was explained as being 'just part of a rough patch and growing apart'

It has never been explained to me just why we were growing apart.

I remained confused and hurt until I found evidence of what was really going on.

A hotel receipt when he said he was staying in a friends last month and last night a text from OW saying 'Just to let you know I am in love with you'. He texted back 'I love you too'.

When I confronted him, H left the house for ten minutes and came back. When he did OW finally returned my calls, her phone had before been engaged at 2am.

After she denied everything I asked him if he had feelings for her and he said he did 'but hadnt done anyting about it' When I aksed if he wanted too, he said he didnt know.

Then he went back on everything and denied it all,

If you consider yourself a friend to any of the three people trapped in this situation, please oppose this affair and the continuation of it. It is simply a way for H and OW to avoid moving on.

I have not sent this letter for revenge, to generate gossip, or to inspire pity, because I will be ok, no matter what happens.

But I would like some support. If I have your support I would be most grateful.

Love

Indie
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 02:01 AM
Cut and paste their "email' to each other

I didnt get it!

My word is enough though right
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 02:09 AM
I'd also have a SECOND email where you cut and pasted their own words and the time/date stamp too.

make it ugly.

Don't play around in your words or be nice. STATE what happened and ASK FOR HELP in support from your friends and family and to whomever you email. ASK THEM TO SUPPORT YOU IN HELPING END THIS DESTRUCTIVE AFFAIR.

Leave out any nice words about the ow. All I would put in the letter is something like this:

Dear Friends of Skank:

As you know, my husband was friends with Mr. X. He sadly passed away last year (or whenever) and was married to Mrs. X, whom we have considered GOOD and close family friend.

I sadly write to you now, to let you know that now, in the wake of her husbands' death, she has begun a destructive affair with my husband, Mr. Y. It is sad, that a family friend and trusted one too, would break more hearts than the death of her own husband did, by attempting to break up MY family too through adultery. The pain of knowing that a once good friend is trying to destroy my marriage is very painful.

Please help support me in breaking up this destructive affair. I am committed 100% to my husband and to our family and want nothing more than this to end and to work towards healing our marriage.

Sincerely,
Mrs. Y
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 02:18 AM
Ok indie,

Take a deep breath. What time is it 3:15AM? That means that you have a little time here to get this right. No one is reading their e-mails at 3:15AM
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 02:24 AM
Let's think about this. You already have your exposure list.

Who on that list would you like to expose via phone first thing in the AM? Close family?

Maybe the others via facebook after you get the letter worded correctly.

I personally like peachy's wording. It is SHORT and to the point. I like how it paints the ugliness of the whole situation and asks for support.

But that is just my personal opinion and I'm not as experienced as the other posters.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 02:45 AM
You do not have to reveal the details of the text and the other details in the exposure letter. This just ends up being too much info.

You can explain how you know about the A when your supporters call you.

Just my own personal experience here... when I caught my H the SECOND time (same OW), I was so upset that I was shaking (like you are). I removed myself from any place that he was and refused to talk to him.

This saved me from making some BIG mistakes. REMOVE yourself from the drama for right now. Get yourself together.

You know what you saw. Stand your ground. "I know what I saw." Ignore the gaslighting.

I have the feeling that people will believe your word over their's.

Posted By: Reynolds531 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 03:26 AM
Indie, I was there in your place six months ago. I know how you are feeling. I wish you well and I promise after I exposed I felt BETTER.

Good luck
Thoughts are with you, Indie. Stay strong.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 12:00 PM
If you haven't already started sending out the exposure emails/FB messages, I would change it.

Quote
Dear Friends of Skank:

As you know, my husband was friends with Mr. X. He sadly passed away last year (or whenever) and was married to Mrs. X, whom we have considered GOOD and close family friend.

I sadly write to you now, to let you know that now, in the wake of her husbands' death, she has begun a destructive affair with my husband, Mr. Y. It is sad, that a family friend and trusted one too, would break more hearts than the death of her own husband did, by attempting to break up MY family too through adultery. The pain of knowing that a once good friend is trying to destroy my marriage is very painful.

Please help support me in breaking up this destructive affair.I am asking that you use your influence with WH and OW to persuade them to do the right thing and end their destructive affair. I am committed 100% to my husband and to our family and want nothing more than this to end and to work towards healing our marriage.

Sincerely,
Mrs. Y

Do you have your list of people who you are going to expose to? It should include, your family, WHs family, OWs family, mutual friends, anyone else who you think can influence them to end their affair.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 03:07 PM
Hes getting his stuff in binbags on the doorstep and the locks are getting changed.
never been more sure of anything in my life.
They have ganged up on me to callme delusional and crazy. Saying I had misread. OW called said they were 'just friends' and she loved him. Said I had told her my marriage had been unhappy for years. He just went to sleep, saying I would regret it. I managed to grab h phone and run out the house in my nightie. Went to brothers where they helped me expose on FB. Now having the luxury to look at his phone, I see I meant little more to him than a dog. Cried like a wounded animal.
I cnt do the recovery, i cant even do today. My utmost emotional need is honesty and openness. So much I expected it like oxygen.

I have dodged a bullet.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 03:08 PM
My dads given me a quid for the binbags
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 03:10 PM
Quote
I cnt do the recovery, i cant even do today. My utmost emotional need is honesty and openness. So much I expected it like oxygen.
Breathe, indie. You can do this. Go one little step at a time. You are in an overwhelming situation right now. Understand that and take care of yourself.

What did you find on his phone?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 03:15 PM
not much except hundreds of texts to her for every one of mine

good mornings

hellos

how are yous

love yous

day sharing

things they purposefully starved me of to keep me in my place
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I cnt do the recovery, i cant even do today.

indie, this is the hardest thing you will ever have to do.

You CAN do it. Right now ... just breath.

((((HUGS))))
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
not much except hundreds of texts to her for every one of mine

good mornings

hellos

how are yous

love yous

day sharing

things they purposefully starved me of to keep me in my place
Okay. So the business of 'we love each other like friends' won't fly here, and they know it. You've confirmed what it is you're dealing with. I'm sorry it's what we feared, but now you know for sure and can plan accordingly.

Don't concern yourself with making lifetime decisions right now. Just get through today. I know how bad you're feeling right now, but that feeling won't last, I promise you. You're doing well, indie! hug
Posted By: nesre Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 03:53 PM
Indie

Just breathe for now. Keep coming back. Sorry this has played out like this.

Just want you to know we support you and are here for you.

In my own journey as a FWH I know the past shame, remorse, regret I felt for having caused so much pain to the person I promised to love and forsake all others.

Now as a BH I know the support of this group and how they have been there and done that-got the T-shirt.

Many of us read along and don't comment unless we can add something.

Just know we are here for you and support you. You can make it through this.

(((((Indie))))))

nESRE
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 04:08 PM
oh Indie im so sorry your going through this, please look after yourself and take time to think about what you want to do, your raw right now so its not a good time to make any permanent decisions.

Please keep posting and let us know how you are.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 04:31 PM
im not going to contact him at all. saw him earlier to give him back his phone - after giving some (what I thought were friends)an ear bashing for sending him messages of support. he said snottily 'and im not going to delete anything, i just need it for work' I said 'ive seen all i need to see' iwas in good shape when in front of him.

Have had a tonne of goodwill though from f&f.

Of course I will come back, I love you all like family. God knows where I would be without you.

I am just doing what I have to do. One day at a time.

I dont see him in my future though at all.

the bin bags are being done. my bro will text him to come get when hes finished work after midnight.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 04:40 PM
Indie can you clarify as to why these friends are sending him messages of support? and what did they have to say for themselves when you brought it up with them??

Also what is the OW doing now? is she denying everything?
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 04:43 PM
Also just to ask why are you packing his bags for him, in my opinion he should be made to pack his bags himself give him 1 hour in the house alone to get his stuff together while your not there. I think he should go through that experience in order to get the feeling of loss he needs to feel right now.

Im not sure kicking him out is the best option but if thats what you decided to do then atleast let him pack his own stuff up.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 04:50 PM
Just to add in with what Nesre said, there are others following you and sending huge amounts of support too.

FWIW I think it's fine that you are packing his bags, it sends a huge message of.....ENOUGH.

Breathe, treat yourself and as I am also in the UK, enjoy the sunshine we had today, should be a lovely evening, go for a walk, have something good to eat and try to get some sleep hun.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 04:52 PM
I need to clear out his stuff. dont know why

I just dont want the relationship.

Friends 'just asking if hes ok' but they didnt ask me that.

Said our relationship was our business, why doing it on DFs bday.

I said they texted on DF's bday and it wasnt just 'our business' at our wedding.

Feel my poor friend would be sorry to be alive today
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
not much except hundreds of texts to her for every one of mine

good mornings

hellos

how are yous

love yous

day sharing

things they purposefully starved me of to keep me in my place

Emphasis mine.

indiegirl, I've been following along. As nESRE said, not chiming in unless I feel I can add something - and that bolded statement prompted me to tell you:

Their affair is not about you. It is about their own selfish entitlement, their blinders to anyone else's pain and suffering, and the infidels getting their next fix.

Do not judge yourself or your self-worth by their amoral actions. Know that you are above that - your integrity and worth is nowhere near being soiled by their adultery. hug
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 06:14 PM
Are you able to pull off a Plan A for a few days and then enter Plan B? You can even do Plan A from afar(meaning he won't be living with you). Have you told him that you are kicking him out? Is it done already? If not, I would even suggest you not do it until you are ready to go into Plan B.

I know that you may not believe this, but we all understand how you are feeling right now. We all went through this on DDAY and that is what today is for you. All you want to do is get away from the pain as fast as you can. Thing is, you might not feel the same way in a couple of days. That's why everyone is telling you to breathe. It is a VERY hard thing to do, but one you won't regret.

If you have told him to get out, then I would suggest that you write a Plan B letter today, and get it up here for people to help edit. Then, in a couple of days, get it to him and go dark as night.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 08:41 PM
(((((Indiegirl))))) from across the pond.

Stay strong and stay around...
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 09:09 PM
You are a fabulous and brave woman! Kudos to you for getting that phone, getting the truth, and also getting the FB exposure done!

I know you're mentally exhausted and weak right now, but be with your friends and family and send him on his way. I think plan B is nice for now, until YOU decide WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH HIM. He doesn't get a say. INDIE SAYS NOW!

What he and the skankho did was called gaslighting. That is a sad form of abuse I went thru too, with my xwh when the ws and even possibly the op both or single-ly scheme to make you think you didn't hear/say/see what you thought you did. An insidious form of mental abuse imho.

Here's an example of what I went thru. My bff saw and took pics of my then wh's car in the driveway at the ow's rutting lair (aka her ho house). I saw the pictures. My bff made me see them. Within minutes of being caught, my xwh comes home and has a bag from the Nike store at the mall and another bag of my favorite candy (gummi bears) with him. He claims the whole time he was at the mall. He wasn't THAT CAR at that woman's house. Ooooh nooooo. He denied and denied and tried to make me think that it was not really him. My bff got fed up came over, and showed me the ONE pic I needed to see. The one where it showed his car tag on the back of the car. No mistaking it, it was him.

That is gaslighting. When they try to make you think you're nuts or that you're making things up or that you're crazy for trying to find out information about them (cheating of course).

Please just feel the warmth and love of your family right now and make decisions later. What is important is YOU GOT THE TRUTH OUT. YOU are amazing and brave!

Living in the shadows thinking something is always wrong, walking around on eggshells b/c something isn't feeling right is no way to live. You knew inside something was happeneing and you discovered it. Good for you!

I know you aren't even thinking of this now, but if you ever decide to let WH come home, it has to be 100 percent on MB terms and the affair with the ho has to END FOREVER. NC forever. And also nc with any "friends" who may have enabled the affair too, for they are no friend of the marriage.

YOu blew up her little imaginary love story! Awesome! YOu may have killed the affair right now. But again, all is up to you now. Only you have the power to decide to do anything at all from this point in the marriage forward. Praying for you too.
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 09:11 PM
Normally I'd agree w/Scotty on this one, but you have been going thru mental trauma with the excessive gaslighting, and I think you should just go to plan B and hand him the letter or send it to him in a few days from now when he has had time to think about all the bad things he has truly done.

I don't think you should be exposed continually or any more to somebody who is conspiring willingly with the ow to mentally abuse you. I think it's time for plan B.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by peachyisback
Normally I'd agree w/Scotty on this one, but you have been going thru mental trauma with the excessive gaslighting, and I think you should just go to plan B and hand him the letter or send it to him in a few days from now when he has had time to think about all the bad things he has truly done.

I don't think you should be exposed continually or any more to somebody who is conspiring willingly with the ow to mentally abuse you. I think it's time for plan B.


That is just how i feel. Been realising today hes been doing it a long time, too. longer than i had thought. If he had made one concession to honesty, one piece of regret, I would have gone plan A. But I just thnk I deserve better. Lets see where the rollercoaster leads me tomorrow though.

His response to bros text not to contact me and to pick up his bags was he had no intention of contacting me and 'to just drop them off' at his mums.

Considering an appt reply to that, only reason they werent on the doorstep was i thought it was more dignified.
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 09:44 PM
Ok. You're doing great.

And put those bags not on the doorstep, BUT AT THE CURB!

How long has this been going on sweetie? it's ok. How long has their affair been going on?

I would expect it's now going to die a nasty and miserable death that most affairs do when exposed to truth and light of day now.

Anyway, when you feel like it, get the plan B letter ready, and send it to him in a few days. LET HIM STEW right now. Let the two affairmongers try to figure out how to lie their way out of this corner, and it probably won't work, whatever they try.

And if anybody asks you, make it ugly. Say it in all its' ugliness for the world to find out. MAKE IT HARD FOR THE AFFAIR. Make trouble for it! Geez, I am so mad right now that you were gaslighted like that.

Just remember, only you can choose from this point forward. HE GETS NO SAY. It is 100 percent YOU driving this now. OW doesn't get a say, but will get a big kick in her butt now from the truth, and hopefully from some family and friends who know her and see how awful her actions are.

You just relax now. You are going to be ok. You don't let them talk to you and you go NC with this ow from now on, unless you have to bring her to court for something. She is beyond toxic and scary.

Unless WH agress to go NC for life with ow and end the affair permanently agreeing to do all MB suggested recovery steps (including becoming totally transparent) YOU STAY DARK. You ignore him. You stay in plan B.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 09:45 PM
He said to drop stuff at his mums but Would his mum support him now she know he has had an A? Have you exposed to her yet?.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 10:09 PM
If you have decided to go all out Plan B then do it. Write the letter and have it sent to him. I know that he said he wasn't going to contact you anyways. Par for the courase and typical wayward. Once you hand him(or send him via email) the Plan B letter then you need to change your phone numbers and email addys. Be prepared for him to try to break Plan B

You need to have a Plan and not decide things based on your emotions or what your WH is or isn't doing. So, I suggest that you get an I'm and go dark.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 10:34 PM
Sorry you are going through this, hon {{{{indie}}}}

I just wanted to add that...it's not the best time to make a decision to go to Plan B on dday. I went to Plan FU on dday and a few days later after the dust had settled I had a change of heart.

Just remember that your H is WAYWARD ~ it is not your H. When my H was being very cold and foggy, I HATED him. When I saw glimmers of my DH poke through, I quickly remembered that I did love him and would like the M to work out. I would just hate for you to make this decision when he is so foggy. If you expose and give it a few days, you may see a little of your DH and feel different than you do right now....

I ALWAYS think a BS should expose the affair and do even a mini Plan A (even if only for a few days!) before moving to Plan B. That way you can look back and know you gave your M the best shot you could have and not have any "what if" regrets...

Sorry if I am rambling. That's what happens when I post when I am tired smile Whatever you decide, we will support you. Hang in there.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 11:51 PM
SusieQ, I couldn't have said it any better. hurray
Posted By: lauradee Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/11 11:57 PM
Indiegirl,

I am new here so someone feel free to slap me back if I'm wrong, but under no circumstances do I feel you should be dropping his bags off at mums for him. Put em at the curb. Text him they're there. If he hasnt come to get em by trash pickup day, well....
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Sorry you are going through this, hon {{{{indie}}}}

I just wanted to add that...it's not the best time to make a decision to go to Plan B on dday. I went to Plan FU on dday and a few days later after the dust had settled I had a change of heart.

Just remember that your H is WAYWARD ~ it is not your H. When my H was being very cold and foggy, I HATED him. When I saw glimmers of my DH poke through, I quickly remembered that I did love him and would like the M to work out. I would just hate for you to make this decision when he is so foggy. If you expose and give it a few days, you may see a little of your DH and feel different than you do right now....

I ALWAYS think a BS should expose the affair and do even a mini Plan A (even if only for a few days!) before moving to Plan B. That way you can look back and know you gave your M the best shot you could have and not have any "what if" regrets...

Sorry if I am rambling. That's what happens when I post when I am tired smile Whatever you decide, we will support you. Hang in there.
Word. Good post, Susie.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 12:33 AM
Quote
His response to bros text not to contact me and to pick up his bags was he had no intention of contacting me and 'to just drop them off' at his mums.
Bossy little cuss, isn't he. Silly wayward. He doesn't realize that he's not in charge now. cool You're not his mommy and you're not his delivery service, indie. Park that trash his things on the porch. Tell him he's got X number of days to get it and then you'll assume he doesn't want it and you will dispose of it accordingly.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 12:34 PM
Hey indie thinking of you how are you doing today?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 02:27 PM
Good thanks.

I dont think his behaviour is limited to the affair, so its not entirely just the behaviour of a wayward. My family have been telling me a few incidents of when hes made me think something is true when it isnt and they go way back. I think his behavior towards me changed with the affair, but though he loved me before he was never going to be honest with me.

He hasnt spoken to his brother for 15 years btw because his brother called him a liar. Thats it. He didnt even say 'youre a liar', my h said 'Are you calling me a liar' and his bro simply said 'yes'

For our entire marriage whenever i didnt take his word on faith, he'd say 'are you calling me a liar? remember i didnt speak to my brother for 15 years and i have no problem doing it to you'.

It never made me drop the subject but i definitely avoided questioning his honesty, hence the circular arguments.

We cant put his stuff on the curb bcause there are laws about doing that in the UK except on in collection days.

Plus theres torrential rain at the moment and he is desperately trying to find things to use to describe me to people as the bad guy. Im finding my dignity and remoteness is appearing to drive him crazy.

Sis sent him a text earlier demanding he name a collection time for his stuff this evening by 6pm. His reply was a rant

"Tell you what, since im the one being told I cant do things or go into my own house, you name a time. Im not 'carrying on' or anyting like that, im going abroad to work so i would appreciate the chance of coming to get my passport' Then he added 'Whoever is dropping the withheld number calls needs to get a grip'.

I cant think of anybody who would bother with that an feel sure it is a lie. Anyone outraged on my behalf would name themselves and GIVE HIM A PIECE OF THEIR MIND.



Sh

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 02:31 PM
My sis text back 'well say 7pm then' to which he said he didnt need a chaperone and would come when im at work tomorrow

Wasnt thrilled with this, but said ok, i wont be here but i will watch from my cousins across the way to make sure he doesnt take anything big or has the locks changed on me.

Any small things i dont want him to have will be removed


If he doesnt show, the locks are being changed tomorrow anyway so he will have to name a time and ahve a chaperone if he wants his gear
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 02:31 PM
Whats a plan B letter
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 02:37 PM
Also , have i mentioned OW had a falling out with the husband of another friend?

If I remember rightly she complained he wasnt 'opening up to her' and talking through his feelings about the death. His wife gave her a piece of her mind an said 'he talks to me about it' but remaned friends, though hubby and OW did not.

After messaging people, including this other wife, on FB, she repled 'Very serious accusation! YOu should be 110 per cent sure before posting on FB!'

But she didnt say she didnt believe it.And her husband has just added me as a friend!!

When his stuffs out of here and the locks are changed, the pics of the texts and the details of the hotel receipt are going up for all to see.


Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
the pics of the texts and the details of the hotel receipt are going up for all to see.

Indie,

What will you gain by doing that? You have already exposed.

Hey, I am on your side here ... but this looks spiteful to me.

You are the classy one here. Take yourself out of the drama.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 03:02 PM
Hey Indie, please take time to read the plan B information on this site (someone please help put a link to it as i have no idea how to do that), but here is the condensed version.

Plan B means you cut off all contact with your WH, you dont ask about what he is doing, you dont talk to him and you dont see him in any way shape or form until he agrees to cut off all contct with the OW and commit to marriage by being honest about what he has been up to.

This is done so you can have the space and time you need to heal and so that you can perserve any love you have for him from being further destroyed by his actions abd to show him of the reality of life without you.

You write him a letter (many samples on here) basically saying you love him but cannot live under the conditions you are in. You have to make it clear that you love him and want your marriage to work and that you are cutting him off for the good of the marriage as his behaviour is damaging any chances of reconciliation and you dont want any part of that.

Then you name a intemediary who is neuteral and is your WH point of contact should he want to talk to you about anything relating to marriage, finances etc (as you will have to block his number and any ways he might be able to contact you directly). This IM (intermediary) has to do a bit of reading on here so they can undertsand their role. That person needs to be prepared to filter through any harmful contact and pass on only the relevant information.

A plan B has to be done well and adhering to all the relevant rules or it will be useless.

good luck
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 03:03 PM
I also wonder if maybe you should have someone drop his things at his mom's. That way he is not in your home and you don't have to spy from across the street.

Sure he should pick it up himself, but avoiding all this drama will help you more.

My heart aches for you !
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
He said to drop stuff at his mums but Would his mum support him now she knows he has had an A? Have you exposed to her yet?.


I have her support an she is spreading the word to other relatives who have contacted me with condolences. Shes a bit scared of him though, never pulls him up. Hes staying there (or rather his stuff will be while he waltzes in and out) but she is refusing to talk to him. mealtimes must be fun.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 03:12 PM
Hang in there indie,

Stay true to yourself.

((((HUGS))))
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 03:32 PM
I suppose its plan new life rather than plan B then.

I havent told him its over or that I want a divorce, just to get his stuff out and not contact me. That is because I urgently need to protect myself from mental abuse.

I havent gone further because its so new and I want to be smart. However I think I will want a divorce

Not angry, not upset, even thinking his going abroad will be amazing for him

I couldnt honestly write that I want the mariage to work or that I love him. My illusion of him is bust to pieces. I just feel detachment and a horror of ever being under his thumb again
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by indiegirl
the pics of the texts and the details of the hotel receipt are going up for all to see.

Indie,

What will you gain by doing that? You have already exposed.

Hey, I am on your side here ... but this looks spiteful to me.

You are the classy one here. Take yourself out of the drama.


I think her kids grandparents will have a better idea of what is in store for their relationship with their beloved godfather

I also seem to have alerted another married friend of hers about a danger from OW

However they are unsure and my word is being questioned on a few fronts. The denial from the two of them is massive. They say my relationship has been troubled for years becase I am too angry and H cant be around me much
This has led to my misinterpreting an innocent text from the two of them
He stayed the night in a cheap hotel to get away from me one evening

In fact it was a super duper romantic getaway deal that I had suggested he and I go on.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I suppose its plan new life rather than plan B then.

I havent told him its over or that I want a divorce, just to get his stuff out and not contact me. That is because I urgently need to protect myself from mental abuse.

I havent gone further because its so new and I want to be smart. However I think I will want a divorce

Not angry, not upset, even thinking his going abroad will be amazing for him

I couldnt honestly write that I want the mariage to work or that I love him. My illusion of him is bust to pieces. I just feel detachment and a horror of ever being under his thumb again



I can totally understand how you are feeling I was responding to your question about what a plan B letter is. You wont be able to decide much right now as everything is very raw. Just look after yourself and know its ok and normal to be lost and confused so soon after DDay.

Was this OW even ever faithful to her own H before he passed?? by the sound of it she is latching on to everyones husbands
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I suppose its plan new life rather than plan B then.

I havent told him its over or that I want a divorce, just to get his stuff out and not contact me. That is because I urgently need to protect myself from mental abuse.

I havent gone further because its so new and I want to be smart. However I think I will want a divorce

Not angry, not upset, even thinking his going abroad will be amazing for him

I couldnt honestly write that I want the mariage to work or that I love him. My illusion of him is bust to pieces. I just feel detachment and a horror of ever being under his thumb again



I can totally understand how you are feeling I was responding to your question about what a plan B letter is. You wont be able to decide much right now as everything is very raw. Just look after yourself and know its ok and normal to be lost and confused so soon after DDay.

Was this OW even ever faithful to her own H before he passed?? by the sound of it she is latching on to everyones husbands


Who knows?
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 07:21 PM
Its just helpful if you can dig any dirt on her, many BS on here hired a PI to get info on OW in order to pass info to their WS in the aim to help them wake up and smell the coffee and see what they are willing to throw their marriage over.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 07:22 PM
Beginning to waver. Still feel very unsure about a plan B letter am I damaging my options by maintaining no contact and not telling him anyting.

Also, feel the exposure isnt complete without the details of the texts and receipt. Theyre still wriggling out of it.

Lots of people i didnt expose to are asking me to FB them too.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 07:30 PM
Indie its a hard one to call as what they are doing is so wrong its hard to get your head around it. She was your close friend and widowed, he is your H. If one of my friends was in the same situation you are in it would take a few minutes to aborb what is going on and I wold be asking "Are you sure about this" probably a million times. But being on MB and having read lots of A stories you begin to realise how it is more than possible.

Give your friends a chance to absorb the information you have just given them. Get your facts clear and straight.

The messages you have are inappropriate by a long shot but your going to need further evidence to get the full story of whats going on thats why I wasnt sure it was a good idea to kick him out before you have a good chance to do proper surveillance once the monitoring eqipment arrived.

Are you willing to consider the PI? Has he picked up his stuff yet?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 07:31 PM
Get this!!! Hes been told not to contact me by my sis. facebook messaged me an hour ago.


Since Facebook is your chosen method of communication nowadays - who's in the house needs sorting out.
If you're in it and that's why I'm being told not to go there & when I'm allowed to get my stuff fair enough. But If you're staying in your ma's then I may as well stay there. I will be continuing to pay my part of the bills till its sold or whatever is decided, just so you know.

Chances are I'm away soon anyway as I have a interview lined up. Despite what you think I'm not having an affair, so now I have nothing to keep me here. Whatever you think, you can think.

I'm not going to argue, despite being told to fight my corner, whoever has taken sides off the back of one side of a story can do as they wish. I've also have asked no one to try to take sides. Group messages and what not are not for me.

I'll forward this to your sis so she can reply, with your either in the house or not.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 07:40 PM
Indie here is a link to what Plan A and B are.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
If one of my friends was in the same situation you are in it would take a few minutes to aborb what is going on and I wold be asking "Are you sure about this"

Give your friends a chance to absorb the information you have just given them. Get your facts clear and straight.

Exactly. Give them a chance to get their heads around it.

I am not sure that posting the texts and hotel receipts on the internet is a good idea.

But that is just me.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Beginning to waver. Still feel very unsure about a plan B letter am I damaging my options by maintaining no contact and not telling him anyting.

A few days in the dark will not damage any of your options. He had you in the dark for a few years.

What about the plan B letter are you feeling unsure about?

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 08:25 PM
Right now, if he said 'ok , i agree non contact and i agree to all conditions, i would say - hmm dont know if i want to forgive you, why did i even give you the letter offering?'

I was attracted to hm because he appeared so frank and honest

I also liked his intelligience and loyalty to helping friends, though of course my faith in these traits has also been bruised!

So emotionally, my love bank balance is empty. Intellectually i dont know what i could possibly see in him.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Get this!!! Hes been told not to contact me by my sis. facebook messaged me an hour ago.


Since Facebook is your chosen method of communication nowadays - who's in the house needs sorting out.
If you're in it and that's why I'm being told not to go there & when I'm allowed to get my stuff fair enough. But If you're staying in your ma's then I may as well stay there. I will be continuing to pay my part of the bills till its sold or whatever is decided, just so you know. Sounds like things may not be so good at mom's. This is part of the reality of life without you. Indie, you have no chance of turning this around until he sees and feels this reality first hand.

Chances are I'm away soon anyway as I have a interview lined up. Despite what you think I'm not having an affair, so now I have nothing to keep me here. Whatever you think, you can think.Do you remember when Clinton said this on "NATIONAL TV"?

I'm not going to argue, despite being told to fight my corner, whoever has taken sides off the back of one side of a story can do as they wish. I've also have asked no one to try to take sides. Group messages and what not are not for me. Blah blah

I'll forward this to your sis so she can reply, with your either in the house or not.

Indie,

Set your conditions to remain in the M.

Decide if you will do mini plan A before going into Plan B.
Get your plan together. You need a plan or you will go crazy trying to figure out what to do.

Stand your ground.

Stay strong.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 08:40 PM
No problem standing my ground - but which piece of ground do I want?

1)Go away and never darken my door again you gaslighting eejit

2) commit to sorting yourself out this marraige and jump a high bar and I can look at letting you back in?

Conditions I would insist on:
1) no contact with ow for life
2) no contact with friends who supported the a for life
3) a lie detecter test so i could know everything about affair and about who supported it
4) policy of joint agreement in everything
5) agrees its acceptable to point it out when he lies
6)Complete forgiveness of his brother to show me he can accept when he is wrong - got to give f to receive it
7)complete transparency in everyhing - accounts statements access to all passwords
8) completing marriage building counselling course
9) children

Would these go in the leter?

Is it an acceptable alternative to direct him to this site to understand better his own behaviour?
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 08:58 PM
That's not a bad list but without plan a ing him don't know what incentive he has to consider this list. Right now he's in the dog house big time but thinks he's right and justifies his bad conduct based on the fact that he considers you at fault ( for waterer delusional reason he can think of) so there really isn't much reason for him to agree to anything (I know marriage vows should count but as he has already broken these they don't right now).

If you plan a him ( carrot and stick plan) you give him a glimpse of what life can be like if he agrees to give up his crack addiction ( aka POSOW ).

As poker said you need to start deciding on a plan as being lost as you are right now will drive you crazy.

Do not under any circumstances tell him about this site until you can trust him not to use it as a weapon against you. If he reads your thread he will find out about the monitoring equipment etc and if you decide to try to save the marriage you will still need to snoop to make sure NC is in place.

Where are you at with him picking up his stuff??? Have rep yes to his fb message?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:08 PM
No still maintaining no contact.

DOnt even know how id plan a him at this point - a cheery lets still be friends?

Like i said i balk at even hinting at doing more.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Right now, if he said 'ok , i agree non contact and i agree to all conditions, i would say - hmm dont know if i want to forgive you, why did i even give you the letter offering?'

You won't forgive him yet. That has to be earned...and you will be giving him the chance to earn it. That's all.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:09 PM
Sis called him, offered he could come round now as IAM here

said hed come tomorrow

i will be spying.

if he takes the laptop or anything, i will NEVER forgive
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:11 PM
Think ~I will let the experience of him taking his stuff away sink in.

I still really want to put the texts on facebook IS THIS SUCH A BAD IDEA REALLY!!!!

Then in a few days see if i want to do plan a or b

have some plans with friends fixed up meantime, theyll see me right.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:14 PM
indie, you'll be better able to make a decision when you understand your options. Do you understand Plans A and B and what they entail? I think a link was posted to you, but I'll post it again: What are Plans A & B?

Understand that Plan B is designed for your well-being. It is not intended as punishment toward your WH. (Although any discomfort he may feel by not having contact with you will be a natural thing he's going to have to deal with.) It may or may not bring your wayward home. It is for your emotional safety.

Here's an example of a Plan B letter from SAA, tweak to fit your sitch:

Quote
My Dear wayward's name here,

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with POSOW's name here possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes Iļæ½ve made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with POSOW once and for all.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially. Our friend friend's name here has agreed to act as an intermediary for any communication you may need to get to me. I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with POSOW, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are with her. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from POSOW and are willing to follow the measures that were suggested to ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each otherļæ½s emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing Skank.

With my love,
indie
Write up a draft and let us see it before you send it.
Posted By: Xau Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:14 PM
Make sure you are a home when he comes he must not have access to the house or remove anything without you knowing or agreeing first.

If you are out take the laptop with you plus any items you require or store them at your brothers house.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I still really want to put the texts on facebook IS THIS SUCH A BAD IDEA REALLY!!!!

Is this you talking or revenge? Revenge usually backfires.

Take your computer with you !!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:20 PM
hes sent a text saying he needs things off the computer.

Though i coul leave a note saing - write list here of what you want emailed.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:23 PM
Im scared of trusting him. Feel giving him plan a or plan b is akin to giving trust (tho i know its not) Want a reason to either trust or not trust him. His giving me something to gain a footing on (stopping the lies) would be pro trust, his taking the laptop would cement decision to not bother

im really tired

with my love balance empty being single seems shiny and fun
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:25 PM
Indie,

I'm curious....where "abroad" does your WH think he is going to go and find work?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:26 PM
I do understand the plans - just a motivation prob

DO I WANT him do i even want to suggest I MIGHT still want him - after all hes done?
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:29 PM
Hi Indie

don't let him have the laptop, offer to email stuff but don't leave him with it on his own.

You are amazing, I have followed your story and wish I had had half your strength in the beginning of my sitch.

Hang on in there, look after yourself properly, that means eating healthy too. Do a couple of nice things for you to make you smile. However rubbish things feel now, it won't last, you are way too tough for that.

Thinkin of you honey (where in UK? Me North West)
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:35 PM
ALL hes done

Neve contributed fully to the upkeep of house
showed no inerest in it, lied to make himself look better

Lied bout money, lied about being a liar

Emotionally balckmiled me

gaslighted me from very early on

said I looked old in front of her

said camping with me would be boring in front of her

called the quiz team last week the approprite name of 'Indie should stay at home'

told me i wulnt be ble to work a smart phone in front of her(worked it enough to catch him)

Made me feel flustered and dizzy abot getting dates/facts mixed up - when i was getting them right

At a gathering of friends i coudlnt make, he said he only got married for legal benefits, with her sat next to him. He was eying my sister for reaction whole time.



Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Im scared of trusting him. Feel giving him plan a or plan b is akin to giving trust (tho i know its not) Want a reason to either trust or not trust him. His giving me something to gain a footing on (stopping the lies) would be pro trust, his taking the laptop would cement decision to not bother

im really tired

with my love balance empty being single seems shiny and fun
You shouldn't trust him right now! He is not worthy of your trust! Gaining back some of your trust may or may not happen down the road. But you don't give him your trust in any event - he earns it.

Okay, sweetie. I know you're tired. I'll make this quick:

1. Don't put the evidence on any social networks. Just let the exposure targets know that you are in possession of evidence of the affair and will share it with them if they would like proof. Be the bigger person in this. Regardless of your reason for putting it on the internet, you will look petty and vengeful.

2. He keeps his meat hooks off that computer. If he wants something from it, tell him to list the docs for you and you will copy them for him. Have you scoured that computer to see what's on there? I suspect there may be incriminating things that he wants to get rid of.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:37 PM
I want to shut up the liars and nay sayers - full disclosure cant hurt and THE TRUTH WILL SET US ALL FREE no matter what he or I decide
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
[/quote]You shouldn't trust him right now! He is not worthy of your trust! Gaining back some of your trust may or may not happen down the road. But you don't give him your trust in any event - he earns it.

Okay, sweetie. I know you're tired. I'll make this quick:

1. Don't put the evidence on any social networks. Just let the exposure targets know that you are in possession of evidence of the affair and will share it with them if they would like proof. Be the bigger person in this. Regardless of your reason for putting it on the internet, you will look petty and vengeful.

2. He keeps his meat hooks off that computer. If he wants something from it, tell him to list the docs for you and you will copy them for him. Have you scoured that computer to see what's on there? I suspect there may be incriminating things that he wants to get rid of.


1. This makes senses. How do I let them know that? Los of things coming on the grapevine.

2. agree, but without administrators p/word cant do that. Could get sis to request it.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:42 PM
Me NW too! Thanks, I like hearing 'im strong' truth is you all give me strength
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 09:47 PM
Consiering putting VAR in room when he comes,

Never know he might call her all disappointed re the laptop
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I want to shut up the liars and nay sayers - full disclosure cant hurt and THE TRUTH WILL SET US ALL FREE no matter what he or I decide
You already put the truth out there, sister. If you choose to do this, hey, I can only applaud you for nailing the two of them! Have you seen the thread over on the Other Topics forum called "Ooooops!" Hilarious! Go check it out. So, yes, you can really 'out' your WH and Skank if you wish. And that thread may even give you a few ideas. But make sure you want to burn that bridge before you do it.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 10:34 PM
Quote
2. agree, but without administrators p/word cant do that. Could get sis to request it.
I guess he's just going to have to cough up the password now, isn't he. wink
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Consiering putting VAR in room when he comes,

Never know he might call her all disappointed re the laptop
Splendid idea! smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 10:50 PM
[quote=maritalbliss

1. Don't put the evidence on any social networks. Just let the exposure targets know that you are in possession of evidence of the affair and will share it with them if they would like proof. Be the bigger person in this. Regardless of your reason for putting it on the internet, you will look petty and vengeful.


[/quote]

So another fb message to the people on the specific exposure list saying get in touch re evidence if you wish?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
ALL hes done

Neve contributed fully to the upkeep of house
showed no inerest in it, lied to make himself look better

Lied bout money, lied about being a liar

Emotionally balckmiled me

gaslighted me from very early on

said I looked old in front of her

said camping with me would be boring in front of her

called the quiz team last week the approprite name of 'Indie should stay at home'

told me i wulnt be ble to work a smart phone in front of her(worked it enough to catch him)

Made me feel flustered and dizzy abot getting dates/facts mixed up - when i was getting them right

At a gathering of friends i coudlnt make, he said he only got married for legal benefits, with her sat next to him. He was eying my sister for reaction whole time.

I haven't finished catching up yet, but I wanted to say, "History re-write isn't just for the WS." More later I am certain.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 11:51 PM
I guess I was almost all aught up grin

Anywho, I agree that you shouldn't put it up all over FB. If someone asks you about the evidence, or if your story is true, then you can say, "I do have evidence, if you would like a look."

You are so close to DDAY and that is why you seem to be teetering towards a Plan F/U.

I can honestly say that after 1.5 years in Plan B, I don't regret one single day of it. I am glad that I took this route. If I were to get a D now, I would KNOW that I did everything possible to try to save my marriage. That is enough for me.

I also figured that I wasn't going to date any time soon, and since I don't believe in dating while I am still married, then I would just stay in Plan B while I healed. And believe me, it has helped A LOT. I am a much better person than I could have ever imagined.

There are some days where I want to Plan F/U, but I am a better person than that and I am not going to let THEM get to me and change who I truly want to be. I wish that for you.

Understand that the emotions you are going through are completely NORMAL and that you are going to be okay, eventually. Take some time. Let us help you get through this, and out better on the other side.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/11 11:59 PM
In the interest of truth, which you know is my guiding star, I asked my giver for her take on history to counterbalance the memory of my taker

All he did for me

She reminded me of the FB 'how well do you know indie' quiz that no-one not even lifelong friends got more thn 50 per cent. H got 100.

The 18 red roses and balloons in my bedroom for my 18th bday, arranged as a surprise

the massively thoughtful well researched gifts which has only improved with time

in the early days of grieving for his friend, how we wept together how he looked at me gratefully to say 'you do help so much' before I allowed him to go on alone while at his most vulnerable. I had vowed i wouldnt do this

The poetry he wrote me
"Your eyes show me magic, the magic of your heart, the magic always with me, whenever we're apart."
"If I look into the future, All I see is you. To have, hold and love you, is all I dream to do".
"We first kissed in the pourng rain, I knew then I'd never be the same. As now I now love and what it is to be loved. For that Ithank you and hope you can see, simply how much you mean to me".

How he woried over and looked after my car, I never did any maintenaince on it. If it was icy, or thered been an accident on my route he would worry himself to death till he heard from me.

researching the right, safest car was all him too.

Even in the midst of his fog hes been sayin he cannot leave without making sure I am ok. Wants me to get a job with a shorter drive for safety for example.

Telling me "that you are always pretty, every day... except for when you're sick and when you slurp your tea!".

Mking me laugh until I cried the day I got fired

Telling me I could do anything when I got turned down for a job I really wanted. Reminding me I was the girl who failed her first year university so had just decided to get a first class grade and did it.

Theres actually lots, lots more

Maybe the plan B letter is just the only proper respect for ten years of marriage many of which gave me a great deal.

If hes not capable of taking it up, then I know he burned the bridge, not me.

Should I do it now, or wait a bit?

I've plan A'd in the run up to D day, so dont feel I need more of that. Willing to be told otherwise by you guys...



Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 12:02 AM
Smiling trough my tears, Scotland, Thanks.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 12:18 AM
Britbrat - I changed the country to 'abroad'

I wont say as it will identify him and his field, but hes gotten job offers before and it is really better for his career, while not very good for mine
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
I can honestly say that after 1.5 years in Plan B, I don't regret one single day of it.

This seems like a long time to me right now. Can you see light at the end of the tunnel, a positive outcome on the horizon?

If I put in two years and got a divorce, I dont know that I would be able to not regret that.

Dont mean to make a judgement on your personal situation, just not sure I see.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Smiling trough my tears, Scotland, Thanks.

Oh hunny, you're welcome. I was crying when I read that post too. hug
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 12:46 AM
Okay, since you asked, I will tell you.

My Plan is just that, mine. I totally 100% believed DrH that MOST affairs die a natural death within 2 years of being exposed. That's MOST not ALL. I knew that going in. So I told myself that I was going to put in a MINIMUM of 2 years in Plan B. I have a different end date, that is longer than the 2 years, but that I haven't publicly stated, so I may change my mind as I see fit. At this end date, all that will really change is that I will actually file for a D, if my WH hasn't already done so by then.

See, we aren't even legally separated. He lives with OW, and has since I started Plan B. There was YEARS of lies. There was a TONNE of gaslighting from both WH and OW. There is a lot to get over, if recovery were to ever happen.

I used to believe that I would not get married again, and I couldn't even imagine being with someone else. I had even told my WH this, after the ILYBNILWY speech but before the true dday. Part of me thinks that's why he is able to do what he is doing, because he "knows" I am waiting for him. But I am not "waiting." Not anymore. What I am doing is healing and growing stronger. I have changed into someone who is so far removed from the person I once was. I may have even changed too much to even reconcile with my WH. But my true test is this.

I ask myself, "If WH came home today and agreed to everything that I ask of him and he truly changed, would I take him back?" If my answer is anything other than, "No," than I continue in Plan B. Sometimes, I even say that my WH is lucky I am in Plan B, because when I find out stupid things he has done(through my kiddos unfortunately), my taker is SCREAMING to come out.

I would suggest that you Plan B, if you really feel like your LB is about empty. It would be best for you. Because Plan B would be about giving YOU a chance more than your WH.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 12:56 AM
Indie Im so sorry your hurting like this, to be able to remember his good sides when you are so cross with him says a lot about what kind of person you are and I almost feel sorry for him that he's so fudged up that he is risking loosing you.

Either plan A or plan B can be taken into consideration in your current situation, just take time to organise yourself and get a good understanding of what either require. In order for any of the two plans to be effective they have to be done well and following certain rules.

Take care of yourself and try to get some sleep as I can imagine you must be drained. ((((hugs)))
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 01:03 AM
Indiegirl,

The reason I asked about where he thinks he will work abroad is because I am a pretty senior executive (VP level)in a VERY large oil and gas company (think brand name, 7 sisters). We do business in some way, shape or form in most countries in the world. I am also the fiancee of a man who works in the industry in many countries (he is a Brit, btw). As a result, I am VERY familiar with the immigration requirements for many countries. I was going to try and give you a take on how likely it is he could immigrate - on either a temporary or permanent basis....it is NOT as easy as it sounds. Also, unless you are going to work in Western Europe or the US, it isn't as easy or as glamorous as it sounds. My fiance has worked off shore in Nigeria, the Ivory Coast, etc. It's a very dangerous, boring, basic existence without the luxuries many of us have taken for granted. It's also hard, hard work....and he's a senior engineer!

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 01:26 AM
Right I know what you're saying but immigration wouldn't apply. The country though geographically abroad is british soil and hes very fmiliar with the place due to many business trips.

He wouldnt like it very much though.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 01:27 AM
My instinct also whispers 'lie' as to his interview - he hasnt had long enough to sort one.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 06:57 AM
Dear Indiegirl,

from the practical side, have you secured the evidence of his savings and earnings in the last 10 years? Because if he did not keep up his side of the bill and you can prove that, you may be able to do something with it if it should come to a divorce. e.g. when you have copies of his bank papers and who paid what for the house, he may owe you.

Also, take the computer to your sister, or another secure place, and have someone look into it. Most of the time you will be able to get past passwords. Maybe you know someone who is good with computers, or search the internet. Who knows what else he is hiding.

God bless, happyheart.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:32 AM
My sister and I are going to do that. Have asked her to ask him for admin password.

Me and cousins girlfirend watched and listend from across the street as he got his stuff.

He came with a friend, took a few calls from people who appeared to be quizzing him about stuff.

When his mate left with some bags we heard him crying

On the phone he sid to someone 'packing up my stuff' 'no i dont want to - but what choice do i have?'

he also said to someone that 'people know i know her, that I see her, i wouldnt be able to...' (then something i couldn't hear, but then he said hotel! in a scornful tone of voice.)

he came bck in unexpectedly when i went back into house, gave me a hard time about taking the computer, stood my ground, he took his cv etc off while i watched, i then let him go, he seemed q upset.

Thinking of plan b.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:40 AM
VERY LONG POST

Want opinion from you all please on the Plan B letter to h.


DH

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OW possible. I foolishly left you to grieve with her without understanding it was my responsibility. I was not there for you when you needed me the most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes Iļæ½ve made in the past. I have left you alone to pursue my own interests and friends. When you did the same I criticised you, instead of identifying it as my mistake too.

I want to create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs and mine. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with OW once and for all.
Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. X has agreed to act as an intermediary for any communication you may need to get to me. I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must know the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with OW. I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are with her. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from her and are willing to follow certain measures to ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

While I live in the house alone, I will cover all bills. This I insist on.


Nevertheless I hope for us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing her.

With my love,

Indie






*EDIT


H,



I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OW possible. I foolishly left you to grieve with her without understanding it was my responsibility. I was not there for you when you needed me the most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes Iļæ½ve made in the past. I have left you alone to pursue my own interests and friends. When you did the same I criticised you, instead of identifying it as my mistake too.

I want to create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs and mine. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with OW once and for all.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. Our friend ? has agreed to act as an intermediary for any communication you may need to get to me. I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must know the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with OW. I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are with her. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from her and are willing to follow certain measures to ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing her.

With my love,

Indie

Should I have refused his offer to still pay bills? What do I do regarding that?

Do I put in the other conditions?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:46 AM
I still havent exposed to OW parents as they arent on FB and havent been able to print a copy of letter, must do that today.

My cousins girl, who he seen with me has had a text sounds like i havent done enough plan a, wduthink?

Hi X, Just a quick one to say ta, for asking if i was ok. Some of my own family havent even had decency to do that. Nor even ask if anything is true. ironically i havent really had anyone give me down the banks, only ask 'am i'. Those who have i tell my sie, which is, i am not. I then get told to fight my corner. but i wont as it would mean i want to try to save something, sadly i dont. I do have an issue wth other people gettng pulled in i.e. OW n DF n that kids could caught in crossfire, which i dont want. its our issue, noone elses, anyway i got the reports i needed and was in an d out amicabally, hope your well anyway. in answer to how i am its a number of feelings but i wont take any more of your time, take care.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 12:00 PM
Indie just quickly note your full name and email address is in one of the posts if you want to remain anonymous you can edit Tyne post and take that info out
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 12:04 PM
Don't second guess what you did in Plan A because of something he said to someone else. He is going to continue to try to put a spin on it. In some perverse way, he doesn't want to admit it, and he doesn't want you to fond out. It would ruin the fantasy. Waywards are weirdos.

I am not an expert on the Plan B letter writing, so I will let some others chime in on that. Just letting you know that we are here, supporting you, even if at some times it is silently, as we have nothing to add, but our support.

How would you say that your LB is holding up today? That's the main thing to be saving as you are considering going into Plan B.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 03:49 PM
Thanks its been removed. Wars are lost on such details!!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 03:53 PM
Love bank doing pretty well after going through old momentos. Seeing him shook up and watching him spin a bit is also boosting me.

My dad wants me to wait two weeks before doing plan b letter?

What is req of an intermediary? People dont want to say too much with him, because angry on my behalf.

At what point do I spell out all the conditions?

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by happyheart
Dear Indiegirl,

from the practical side, have you secured the evidence of his savings and earnings in the last 10 years? Because if he did not keep up his side of the bill and you can prove that, you may be able to do something with it if it should come to a divorce. e.g. when you have copies of his bank papers and who paid what for the house, he may owe you.

Also, take the computer to your sister, or another secure place, and have someone look into it. Most of the time you will be able to get past passwords. Maybe you know someone who is good with computers, or search the internet. Who knows what else he is hiding.

God bless, happyheart.


Have been trying this w/out much success, hoping to get his internet password from providers or ask him for admin password. I would insist on seeing his financial stuff as a condition of plan b letter
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Love bank doing pretty well after going through old momentos. Seeing him shook up and watching him spin a bit is also boosting me.

My dad wants me to wait two weeks before doing plan b letter?

What is req of an intermediary? People dont want to say too much with him, because angry on my behalf.

At what point do I spell out all the conditions?
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Love bank doing pretty well after going through old momentos. Seeing him shook up and watching him spin a bit is also boosting me.

My dad wants me to wait two weeks before doing plan b letter?

What is req of an intermediary? People dont want to say too much with him, because angry on my behalf.

At what point do I spell out all the conditions?



Why does your dad advise you to wait before the plan B letter?

An intermediary is someone who is for your marriage there is some information on MB about the requirements I can't find a link but I'm sure the vets can help with that.

As far as to when to reveal the conditions to him well that is best done once he agrees to the NC with OW and asks you about what conditions you want met as you already give him a hint that there are conditions that he will need to need in order to get a chance at making the marriage work in your plan b letter.

I am just scared of you downloading a whole list of demands (even though they are fair demands) on him when he is already a hard character to pin down. The state of mind he is now is to flee and bury his head in the sand a list of demands without a plan A only risks pushing his head deeper in the sand.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by NB28
[ Why does your dad advise you to wait before the plan B letter?



To calm down a bit, ensure its what i want - i think he also wants him to suffer, which isnt the purpose i know.

When is the right time to do the letter? is there a timescale to follow?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by NB28
[quote=indiegirl] I am just scared of you downloading a whole list of demands (even though they are fair demands) on him when he is already a hard character to pin down. The state of mind he is now is to flee and bury his head in the sand a list of demands without a plan A only risks pushing his head deeper in the sand.


Agree. Thinking of saying 'I want complete honesty and NC' then demans later

or should i just sy nc? And when? Do i take indications from his behaviour or what?
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 07:17 PM
Indie,

There are businesses out there who can pull everything off the hard drive off a computer....including passwords. If you take your computer to them and tell them you just want the admin password, they may be able to do that fairly quickly. If they can't do "just" that, the will be able to pull everything off. My XH is a Systems Engineer who grew up in the UK (didn't immigrate here until his mid-30's) and learned his trade there (also ran back there for several years, recently, to be with the OW who contributed to the downfall of our marriage). He confirmed that, yes, you should be able to find one of these businesses fairly easily....
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 07:29 PM
Very interesting. where do you look, what are these businesses called?
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 08:27 PM
Hey indie, Plan B in my opinion does make him suffer, he cannot contact you, he's cut off but at least he has a clue as to what you want from him. Right now I bet he does not have a clue where he stands, he is saying things like he is moving abroad in the hope of you reching out to him ( and a bit manipulative as well). Giving him the plan b letter just let's him know in plain straightforward terms what he has to do if he wants the marriage to work.

First he has to have no contact with OW and send her a NC letter.

Then if he agrees to that you can negotiate the terms of your new agreement. The most important thing right now is kicking this POSOW out of his life. When she is out he will be in a more cooperative state to negotiate your needs in your marriage. By the way he has treated his brother it's very unlikely that he's going to admit to being wrong and that he is having an A.

You will need to show him what a great marriage yours can be (plan a) before he will feel comfortable enough to reveal his shortcomings.

I know it can seam unfair that u got to do all the work when he's the one in the wrong. I cant tell you how much I resented having to be nice to my WH and be all lovey dovey after the A when all I wanted to do was run him over with a double decker bus, but your the only one who is sober right now so unfortunately it has to start with you. He's high on A drug and is in deep wayward la la land.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 09:06 PM
Ill do whatever it takes to get the healthiest outcome. Never realised how tough I was before this.

So, if im understanding right, Letter can be done soon, say a few days? Or straight away?

The letter draft I posted earlier is ok?

If he agrees to an NC letter, negotiate the other cnditions

Plan A him....... ?
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 09:20 PM
hey indie, you definitley are strong just a bit sideswiped at the moment, im sure that as much as you were aware that they might be having an A its still shocking when you get the evidence in black and white.

ok so here is my suggestion, name your sis as intermediary as she has kind of been doing that right now.

your plan B letter as far as I can see is ok but im really not a good source of advice on this, call out to vets to see if any can take a look. remember to include the details of your IM in the letter and tell your sis that you dont want to know about any Bull basically she needs to do the job of a filter, get only the relevant information she needs to get accross. for example if he emails her calling you names etc she does not pass that info onto you (your plan is to protect your marriage from further wayward babble).

If and when he agrees to NC (and NC letter) try to give him an overview of what you would like from him in order for him to come home and you to start rebuilding your marriage (dont overwhealm him with demands as the pure fact that he agreed to NC is an admission of guilt and is one battle won already)allow him back home and monitor like mad.

I do think he cares about you and wants to be with you just has many issues to overcome before he can see the light.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 09:22 PM
CALLING VETS PLEASE REVIEW PLAN B LETTER ON THIS THREAD
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 09:48 PM
Just to check also, the other conditions is just a sit down negotiation between us? Do I have to stand firm on them all?
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 10:00 PM
"Never realised how tough I was before this."

I did. From you first post. smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 10:26 PM
AAHHH!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:05 PM
Just some minor tweaking ....


Dearest H,

Put some loving memory first.
"I knew I was falling for you the moment (insert memory)."



I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OW possible. I foolishly left you to grieve on your own. OW saw an opportunity, and stepped in.

I was not there for you when you needed me the most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.

I am willing to avoid learning from the mistakes Iļæ½ve made in the past. I did not make you my number one priority. That was my big error. I have left you alone to pursue my own interests and friends. When you did the same I criticised you, instead of identifying it as my mistake too. If we are going to have a future together, I promise you, you are my number one priority.

I want to create a new life for both of us. that will meet your needs and mine. A marriage where we joyfully meet each other's needs. A marriage where we are in love with each other.

But I cannot do that However, that wonderful marriage is not possible until you end your relationship with OW once and for all.

Until then, I will avoid seeing not see you, I will not speak with you. you or talking to you.

Our friend ? has agreed to act as an intermediary for any communication you may need to get to me. I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must know the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with OW. I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are with her. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions. Your affair rips my heart out, and my suffering must be tended to.

As soon as you are willing to have permanently separated from her and are willing to follow certain measures to ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing her.

With my love,

Indie
hurray

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:16 PM

Love it.

"I knew I was falling for you the moment after I said we could only be friends. Then minutes later I was finding myself kissing you in the rain by the paper shop. I've never looked back."

Can I do this soon, yoda? Impatience is a curse of mine


Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Can I do this soon, yoda? Impatience is a curse of mine

How awesome has your Plan A been the last week?

Timing is strategic, and not based on your impatience.
LOL
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:25 PM
Its not really been plan a, only mini plan a before exposure

I kicked him out he picked his stuff up today, he was very shaken

still in crazy denial
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:30 PM
Meet him for coffee in a few days.
Ask him a lot of open ended questions.
Say/reveal very little of yourself.
Cards close to the vest, yanno?

"Where do you see yourself in 5 years?"
"How do you define a well lived life?"
"What goal have you always wanted to pursue?"

Stuff like that.
Think of things before hand.

Remember .... you are trying to get him to open up.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:31 PM
Then, after 45 minutes (no longer) you rise.
Say how nice it's been.
How great to sit and reconnect.
Tell him you must run off.
You have an appointment.
Smile.
Hug.
Kiss.
Leave quickly.
Skip away .....
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:32 PM
.... and then do NOT respond to any texts or phone calls or emails for 24 hours.
You're very busy.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:43 PM
Yup. To the letter, Indie. Trust Pep.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by Surfer88
Yup. To the letter, Indie. Trust Pep.
Yes. As usual, Pep delivers. Nice letter, Pep.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/16/11 11:49 PM
Pep my love, you are positively dangerous.

I am an apt pupil tho, this is just my sort of assignment.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 12:15 AM
Follow Pep wherever she will lead you. I did and I would say that she is the reason that I didn't regret one thing I did

Indie you are a superstar. You are much stroner than you can believe and if you follow these plans you will be even get stronger and stronger.

We will be here to support you and until you officially enter Plan B just remind your Taker that you WILl get relief.

Remember to take care of yourself and that Plan A is done without expectations. Plan B is also done without expectations.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 12:35 AM
Scotland has found my achilles heel, I am all about expectations.
Posted By: fullthrottle Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 12:36 AM
Been reading and sending you much admiration and virtual hugs.

You rock, Indie!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 12:37 AM
Indie, I forgot to mention. You should make sure that your interactions at "coffee" should be light. If your WH tries to talk to you about your relationship' change the subject and don't let him bait you. You're doing GREAT.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
"I knew I was falling for you the moment after I said we could only be friends. Then minutes later I was finding myself kissing you in the rain by the paper shop. I've never looked back."

Awesome. Sooooooooo romantic.

Maybe the closing of your letter ....

"I love you, rain or shine."
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by indiegirl
"I knew I was falling for you the moment after I said we could only be friends. Then minutes later I was finding myself kissing you in the rain by the paper shop. I've never looked back."

Awesome. Sooooooooo romantic.

Maybe the closing of your letter ....

"I love you, rain or shine."

Aww, Pep, look at you and your way with words!

indie, you've got great help in Pep - follow her wise counsel to the letter!
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 01:41 AM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by indiegirl
"I knew I was falling for you the moment after I said we could only be friends. Then minutes later I was finding myself kissing you in the rain by the paper shop. I've never looked back."

Awesome. Sooooooooo romantic.

Maybe the closing of your letter ....

"I love you, rain or shine."


Wow, cold chills on that one. You and pep together are dangerous. Wish I had a way with words like that.

Indie, just wanted to say you are a very strong person and are doing great.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 02:46 AM
weightlifter

you are doing great indie!!!


pep you are amazing! and both of you are trouble!
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 10:41 AM
Google hard drive imaging and the city in whih you live or the nearest big city....
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 12:19 PM
Well done indie for having a plan, now you have sone direction I hope this will lessen the stress.

Take care and keep us posted.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 05:01 PM
So, my plan for the next few days is this

Give OW parents a pic of texts exchanged, tomorrow. I feel they have been lied to a lot and need this. I still havenļæ½t exposed to them, just their other daughter on FB and I donļæ½t know if was passed on, as ive had trouble printing stuff out while off work.

The husband of OW other married friend has added me on FB. His wife has had to tell OW to ļæ½back offļæ½ in the past as she ļæ½wanted him to grieve with herļæ½. He hasnļæ½t communicated with me at all. I want to say ļæ½ Just curious why youļæ½ve added me in the wake of recent events. If youļæ½d like to ask me anything, be happy to reply.ļæ½ Could do tonight

On Monday, calling h to see if free for coffee, implement Pepļæ½s advice.

On Thursday, handing him the plan B letter
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 06:25 PM
Indie,

I can't remember ... have you told him that you expect him to end and all contact in any way shape or form with OW?

OK, I know that sounds silly because of course that is what you expect. But waywards have a way of turning things around in their own heads to give themselves permission. He may be thinking that all he needs to do is end the A and that he can still remain friends with her. Most waywards believe that until it is specifically spelled out for them. Even then, they often twist it around.


Example: after I found DH secret e-mail account and the recent e-mail activity with OW.

me: "you looked me in the eye and told me that you have not been in contact with her."

my DH: "you asked me if I CALLED her. You did not say anything about e-mail."

I think maybe you need to make this crystal clear to your H before pushing the plan B button.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 07:49 PM
Yes, when confronting about the text he halfway admitted having feelings but 'didnt know' what he wanted to do about them

I said it was inappropriate and that i insist nc, (and i speelled out that meant no contact at all) said he wasnt going to go without seeing his godkids

I kicked him out the next day. Hes going round now saying 'what can i do'

When I listened in on him getting his stuff, aside from crying, it sounded like someone might hve asked where OW was because he replied to something "On holiday"

I dont know how to ascertain taht
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
Indie,

There are businesses out there who can pull everything off the hard drive off a computer....including passwords. If you take your computer to them and tell them you just want the admin password, they may be able to do that fairly quickly. If they can't do "just" that, the will be able to pull everything off. My XH is a Systems Engineer who grew up in the UK (didn't immigrate here until his mid-30's) and learned his trade there (also ran back there for several years, recently, to be with the OW who contributed to the downfall of our marriage). He confirmed that, yes, you should be able to find one of these businesses fairly easily....


This is my number one job of the day tomorrow, knowledge is power!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by indiegirl
"I knew I was falling for you the moment after I said we could only be friends. Then minutes later I was finding myself kissing you in the rain by the paper shop. I've never looked back."

Awesome. Sooooooooo romantic.

Maybe the closing of your letter ....

"I love you, rain or shine."


Indeed it will be. Just showed to my mum, she was knocked off her socks.
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 09:34 PM
Just hugs to you.

However, I was right, this IS a predatory ow. See what she had done to another woman's husband (another friend of her deceased H)?

She is seriously pathologic, this ow. So I'd do all I could do to shut this ho down quickly. I'm sorry Indie you're going thru this, but this woman either has serious mental issues, or she's secretly harbored a "thing" for her husbands' friends for some time now. Not sure which it is, or could simply be she feels cheated that her H is dead and is going after guys she knows who might buy into her DUMSEL IN DISTRESS crap she's dishing out.

Stay strong. Keep exposing ow! Good! That is GOOD that you're getting corroborating evidence from who is possibly another bw whose H might have gotten entangled with this black widow.

I vote we call her BW. "Black Widow". I named my xwh's two ow, as it helped me fight them with all my might when I gave them no identity other than evil and the name I called them.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 10:01 PM
Big hugs back Peachy. I love how much you hate her, more than I do!

Black widow it is, and shes doin her thing tonight

Had the rare advantage of the use of a strange car tonight. Just did sweep of her street and his car's there ARRRGGGGHHHHH

When is he going to remember he hates her, the silly wayward?

Its stiffened my spine though. War. Her parents are getting the info they need tomorrrow. I may also entice his mum into a wee trick I have up my sleeve. She loves me and he exasperates her. Also impressed her very much by telling her id demanded he forgive his brother. May tell her I am hoping to have a push at reconcilliation at some point. I'd tell her I just need to 'search his car' I wouldnt tell her more than that. She trsts me. The GPS has arrived you see. Why not put a VAR in there too for good measure.

Off to FB the 'good husband'
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 10:08 PM
Well well well...the black widow is spinning her web huh?

I'd put that sweet lil' VAR in th car! And the GPS too! Why not?

Of course he's over there. YOU NEED TO TAKE PICS of his car being in the driveway of her house. You do. for legal purposes if things go downhill further later on.

My bff did that for me and it was HUGE in court showing pics we got as well as the video evidence from the PI and some retrieved emails b/w them.

Showing HIS car there with a very late at night time/date stamp on it showing his CAR TAG is evidence he is inside her home. Can you borrow that car late tonight and get the pics? Let's collectively STOMP on this black widow wink
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 10:08 PM
I'd further expose by sending out THAT photo.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 10:11 PM
Cool, Ill put my camera on charge and swing by later. 3am ought to do it, dont you think?

Is the legal sitch same in UK tho, still havent been to see anyone for advice...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 10:17 PM
agreed....
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/17/11 10:28 PM
Extra evidence cannot hurt. BUT DO NOT CONFRONT at ow's home. When your wh lies to you, show him the pic and DO NOT SAY how you came about it.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 12:12 AM
Where'd my lovely detached warlike feelings go?

He KNOWS I KNOW and HES OVER THERE.

hurt hurt hurt.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Where'd my lovely detached warlike feelings go?

He KNOWS I KNOW and HES OVER THERE.

hurt hurt hurt.
Your husband isn't over there, indie. A swamp creature is over there.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 12:24 AM
ok
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 01:22 AM
Indie this is a roller coaster I'm sorry it's been a bad day your doing good just think she gets the creep and you got the nice non cheating hubby.

He does not love her he's confusing feeling sorry for her for love. That's not love after all he used to dislike her till her h passed.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 02:07 AM
If this isn't a team,I don't know what is. Indie, you have at it with the champions you have here! smile You are in good hands!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by NB28
He does not love her he's confusing feeling sorry for her for love. That's not love after all he used to dislike her till her h passed.


This helps. No matter what's ahead, this helps.

Thanks surfer, thanks everyone.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 07:28 AM
Beginning to feel wary about the plan b letter. It makes sense to do it, it cuts her out and trying it takes away any 'what ifs' for me. But it will hurt. Could do with a few insights from vets: -

How quick a response can be expected from Plan B, feel I need to give myself a deadline in which to draw a line under it.

I am putting my heart on the line by doing plan b letter, can anyone tell me how soon after the letter they started to feel
It was a positive experience.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 08:31 AM
Got evidence of hotel and texts all enveloped up and addressed for black widows parents. Hand delivery this afternoon should make it a lot less comfortable for him to just nip round the house.
Going to see his m & d too.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 08:31 AM
her husband parents i mean
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 09:12 AM
I'm considering threatening BWidow. Just the basic, you dont see him, your house is off limits, or I step things up.

I would threaten that evidence goes public on facebook and I start putting banners up around town. Will disrupt public events with banners and protests to the point it becomes a news story (when her h died it was in local news)

On the texts he said to her 'you give me a sense of worth' seeing me fight for him may untangle that advantage?
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 09:47 AM
Hi Indie

Oh it is horrid isn't it.

They say and do the most awful things.

Hang on in there, you are clearly worth 2 of the BWidow, you have support and friends, you did nothing that made him behave this way.

Hugs from a wet Saturday morning in Derbys!!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 10:16 AM
Thanks Tanam, you too.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 10:19 AM
Brit Brat,

Tried to PM you, but couldn't:- Phoned up company for hard drive imaging, they say I don't need it?

When I asked what I wanted I said admin password and they told me to go to a regular PC World for that, cost about ļæ½95.

Am I actually asking for the right thing.. sounds dim but what am I specifically asking them to do?
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 10:43 AM
Right indie got my H on the task he is very pc savvy so can you please just tell me what version of windown the laptop has
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 10:48 AM
google ophcrack, you dowload this program you burn it onto a cd adn put it into the laptop and it automatically cracks any windows user password that the pc has.

Basically this program does the following: after a few minutes of running the software it will find all of your passwords and display them on the screen.

Its free and has a good safety review.

Sorry when you google it your looking for the one called ophcrack live cd.

Hope that helps.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 11:56 AM
Threatening the OW is going to do you no good. OWs are a real waste of your time and breath. I confronted the OW in my sitch and it actually sent me for a tailspin instead. Especially when they are preadtory OW. What will happen is that you will ruin whatever Plan A you get in until Thursday. OW will go to your WH and play the victim. When you send your WH the Plan B letter, you should send her a copy of it as well with an extra line that says something like, "I am willing to make WH happy and I am patient enough to wait you out.". This way she knows that he didn't pick her. That YOU forced him to do this and that you aren't going away that easily. If you are going to email it to her, make sure that you get a new email addy first. I figured out that my WHs OW probably didn't get the letter. She most likely bloacked me. Oh well. Doesn't matter much.

Now, about how long you will be in Plan B. I would say that you give it at least 18 months from now. How long do you have to be separated before you can get a D? Here it is a year of separation and then if everyone agrees on finances, it takes 31 days after it is filed to be final.

How long will it take for Plan B to be effective on your WH? That is a aquestion that doesn't need to be asked. I know that when you are thinking about going into Plan B you look at it is a save for your marriage. It CAN be but that's not the real reason to go into Plan B. The real reason to go into Plan B is to save yourself from the abuse and drama that the affair is causing you. A benefit of Plan B CAN be that your WH wakes up from his A induced coma and comes home. Most likely, that won't happen for a while. Who knows? But his cake eating will stop. And you will show him and everyone else that you have self worth. That's why you need to go into Plan B.

How long will it take for you to feel better during Plan B? That answer depends on you and how dark you stay. You will go through a sort oif withfrawal at first. That will last a couple of weeks, as long as you don't have ANY contact, directly or otherwise with BOTH WH AND OW. You will start to feel better and stronger as long as you focus on YOU and changing your life for the better.

Today is 18 months since I started Plan B and I am so much better than I could have imagined. I stay as dark as possible(I have young kids so it is a bit harder to stay dark). I have learned to make a life for myself and my children without my WH. I am not only surviving my WHs affair, I am thriving.

We'll help you get through this. Let's just focus on getting you through these last few days in Plan A and then transitioned to Plan B.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I'm considering threatening BWidow.

Bad idea.
Nooo

Control yourself.

Your TAKER wants to kick some butt. twoxfour
Do something good for yourself which will calm your TAKER down and not compromise your Plans.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
On the texts he said to her 'you give me a sense of worth' seeing me fight for him may untangle that advantage?

This allows you to see what EN she is filling.
You step in on your coffee date and give his "self worth" some love. Even if you must FAKE IT.

Do not be discouraged.
All waywardnutasshats say crap like this to each other.

You fight OW by your Plan A coffee date.
Make it all about him.
See if you can listen hard to hear the "ka-chink" of the love bank deposits.

Remember, you are creating a memory of what you can do for him these final Plan A days.

NO RELATIONSHIP TALK what-so-ever.

If he tries to talk serious, place 2 fingers gently over his lips and say ...

"Shhhhh. Let's just have fun today."

Flirt like crazy.
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 03:39 PM
Indie,

Sorry, I just saw your post to me....Hard drive imaging will tell you EVERYTHING that's on or been on that computer. You may not need that if you can gain access to his stuff. First try what the guy recommended or the program suggested by NB.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 04:50 PM
Thanks for tech advice guys, will do.

Please tell me if the following shows I've fudged up. Hardface Bwidow has been kicking up a fuss - and you guessed it, playing the victim.

I didnt confront her but I did put printed out facebook message, hotel receipt and text message through parents door.

Im not sure actually if parents got it as her sister lives with them and i dont know if she supports the A.

Bw turned up at my parents house with two women in tow - both had her dumpling figure according to my dad - so one is her sis but the other one not sure of.

He said it was 'a half hearted' knock he barely heard, only came to window in time to see them leaving

You really called it when you said she'd play the victim.

My H then calls my BiL saying Bwidow "doesnt appreciate having letters through people's doors" (Does she think ive done that to everyone?)
Also that she's going to the police "because it's slander" (the illiterate skankos).
My response was just that its her right to try that.
I hope she enjoys being laughed at.

Damage report oh wise ones?

So mad.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 04:51 PM
The letter was addressed to Mr and Mrs etc, but skank's sis may have seen me or someting?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 04:57 PM
Apparently 'my evidence had better be good' because she was busy that weekend.
I bet she was.
And it better be good for what?
Who does she think she IS?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 05:03 PM
BWidow is too confusing
Sounds like betrayed widow.
Pick something else.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 05:06 PM
Lol at BlackWidow-SkankHoe-nutJob-vile humanspeciemen.

Dont worry about any such threats they are seriousely ridiculous, especially in the UK. When I FBooked all of the OW friends and family with the esposure letter, I got an email back from someone claiming to be her uncle and lawyer saying his lovely neice would never do anything like that and threatening to take me to court for slander, I calmly informed him slander was saying something that you know is false and have no evidence to support it is actual fact, never heard from the muppet again, so I guess although not leagally trained like him I was right.

Ask your sis to ask your H this next time he calls in defence of and speacking on behalf of this BWidow. if there is nothing going on between them two why does he feel the need to call and speack on her behalf??

She will play victim as what else can she do really Indie, is she really going to roll over and say "oh dear you got me I am going to hotel rooms with your H?" not likely.

I love scotlands idea of sending her a copy of the NC letter with the addedum at the bottom. Its priceless and as she seams to be a drama queen it might even kick off a few fights and make her insecure with your H.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 05:09 PM
By the way did you get the chance to catch his car at her house early hours of the morning and take pics as proof??
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 05:10 PM
Blackwidow is very insecure, seen her literally 'kick off' at her husband in the past for very minor interactions with other women.

this is why I knew telling her about us snogging would send her into a spin.

Youve made me feel lots better. Shell be too angry to do a good victime act I should think. they prob fighting right now!!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 05:11 PM
No he'd gone home on my next round trip.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Apparently 'my evidence had better be good' because she was busy that weekend.
I bet she was.
And it better be good for what?
Who does she think she IS?

You see Indie this is where you are at a disatvantage, this woman used to be a very close friend to you so your problem is that she will know you and how you act and behave and can predict you to a certain degree and this can be problematic. In the case that you dont know the OW its easyer to scare and intimidate her becasue she wont know what your capable of cause she wont know you.

A countermeasure to this is gaining the upper hand by acting in a way that is unlike you, and not expected, so for exaple she wont see the coffee things coming and that might throw her. But as far as confrontation goes she will be expecting that so she will be ready for it and you might not come off so well in that battle so take the fact that this woman know you and try to surprise her (and i dont mean jump her when shes not expecting it and beat her lol i mean do things that are classy and that dont bring you down to her level.)
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 05:18 PM
Quote
Bwidow "doesnt appreciate having letters through people's doors"

I would deliberately misunderstand something as stupid as this.

Examples:
> "What? Someone went through her drawers?"
> "That's weird. Most people like getting mail."
>" I love The Doors. Too sad about Morrison though."


Fog responses at it's finest.
Stay focused.
Misdirect whatever the foggy remark was intended to do.

It annoys the stupid.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 05:22 PM
Quote
she's going to the police "because it's slander"

Fingers crossed.
Here's hoping.


Quote
slander |ˈslandər|
noun Law
the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation : he is suing the TV network for slander. Compare with libel .
ļæ½ a false and malicious spoken statement : I've had just about all I can stomach of your slanders.

Let's hope she uses this opportunity to make herself even stupider than she was yesterday.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 05:30 PM
Quote
Also that she's going to the police "because it's slander" (the illiterate skankos).
I always get a chuckle out of this. So, she's going to go to the police and tell them what's been happening?

dramaqueen"Officer, I'd like to swear out a slander complaint against indie! She's going around, telling everyone I've been shagging her husband!!"

"I see, Ms. Ho. Well, does she have proof that what she is saying is true?"

dramaqueen"Um...well...er..."

"I'm sorry, Ms. Ho. If she has proof of this, you have no case for a slander complaint. Maybe if you quit shagging her husband she wouldn't have anything to talk about. "
Posted By: GloveOil Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
...she's going to the police "because it's slander" ...
LOL... even if she had a factual leg to stand on, slander is a civil offense, not criminal. Police investigate crimes -- they wouldn't do anything for her. She sounds dumber than a tree stump.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 05:51 PM
Don't insult tree stumps.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 06:00 PM
Hey Indie,

Just wanted to say that this is the desired effect of exposure. They are now desperately trying to do damage control to save face.

Secret happy fantasy world is no longer very fun and now everyone is watching them.

Great work. This is how to kill an A.

Forget about the revenge ideas you have ... this is the best revenge of all.

Hugs.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 06:13 PM
As for you... keep looking pretty and smelling nice.

Hang in there!
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 06:37 PM
Do NOT confront face to face w/blackwidow. Nope. That would cause something to possibly happen and also that is the only way there could be any type of police involvement.

Crazy blackwidow has no legal ground to stand on for you simply putting an envelope of real facts thru the parents' door. What are they? FACTS. She cannot argue out of that in court.

YOU stand your ground, be sweet, be lovely and gorgeous, and sit there and let the crazy evil posow spin her web around HERSELF this time and entangle herself.

YOU stay out. YOu go dark in plan B soon and you remember you are in the drivers' seat.

Look, I once exposed to monkeyho (my xhow's nickname)and her family and accidentally exposed to her uncle, who was AN ATTORNEY in my hometown. He tried to "talk" to me and I "talked to him" and said, look, I have proper evidence that WILL BE ENTERED IN the court of law and the evidence is from a proper and licensed investigator and I have direct emails from your skank neice to my husband. YOU think YOU got a case?" He never called me again and never attempted one thing. I think however, he got EMBARASSED AT HIS NEICE and her skanky actions though.

Facts can never be argued down. Facts are just that, facts. Any attempt to do so is out of anger, fright, or embarassment at the hands of the ow/om or ws.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 06:49 PM
Peachy what is it with these ow's uncles read my post above we both got contacted by owens uncles trying to preach the law. Did we by any chance have the same ow lol
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 07:05 PM
I can't take credit for the Plan B letter being sent to the OW. That is all DrH. grin

Indie, it is funny. When I first came on here, I didn't believe everything people were telling me, until THEY HAPPENED. Then I would get a good chuckle from it. And I learned to trust these anonymous people on this forum. They know their stuff. laugh

Hey vets, what do you think about her sending an email, or two of the "remember when" type before Thursday? I did that during my plan A, just wondering out loud here.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 07:28 PM
I agree.
A "remember when" letter/card is a nice touch.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by NB28
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Apparently 'my evidence had better be good' because she was busy that weekend.
I bet she was.
And it better be good for what?
Who does she think she IS?

You see Indie this is where you are at a disatvantage, this woman used to be a very close friend to you so your problem is that she will know you and how you act and behave and can predict you to a certain degree and this can be problematic. In the case that you dont know the OW its easyer to scare and intimidate her becasue she wont know what your capable of cause she wont know you.

A countermeasure to this is gaining the upper hand by acting in a way that is unlike you, and not expected, so for exaple she wont see the coffee things coming and that might throw her. But as far as confrontation goes she will be expecting that so she will be ready for it and you might not come off so well in that battle so take the fact that this woman know you and try to surprise her (and i dont mean jump her when shes not expecting it and beat her lol i mean do things that are classy and that dont bring you down to her level.)


Actually she doesnt know the real me. H does, but hes had his head up his butt.

I am one person personally and another professionally. Job me has been full time through all this and shes had more than one surprise.

One of our mutual friends, discussing this with her sister was told 'How could anyone do this to Indie? She's like a puppy?' My mate said: "until shes kicked, and then its WATCH OUT".

Because Im nice, happy and singy in my (usully very happy) life shes mistaken me for stupid

Class is a must though, for my own recollection if nothing else
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Quote
she's going to the police "because it's slander"

Fingers crossed.
Here's hoping.


Quote
slander |ˈslandər|
noun Law
the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation : he is suing the TV network for slander. Compare with libel .
• a false and malicious spoken statement : I've had just about all I can stomach of your slanders.

Let's hope she uses this opportunity to make herself even stupider than she was yesterday.


Thing is, my work means I am an expert on defamation laws. THEY BOTH KNOW THIS. Aside from which my H is a (formerly) intelligient man knows for himself and is repeating this drivel, This fog is very good stuff.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by pokerface
Hey Indie,

Just wanted to say that this is the desired effect of exposure. They are now desperately trying to do damage control to save face.

Secret happy fantasy world is no longer very fun and now everyone is watching them.

Great work. This is how to kill an A.

Forget about the revenge ideas you have ... this is the best revenge of all.

Hugs.


I know. (gleeful hug of self) Plus the battle of wits is becoming a battle of, well you know.....
Get plenty of exercise. It will help with the stress. That and a proper diet and you'll look and feel your best whether WH comes back or not.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 08:30 PM
If all really fails and you start to loose your senses you can always drag their backside on Jeremy Kyle I love the way that man kicks cheaters backsides and kicks them off the stage.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 08:52 PM
LOL! love you all
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 09:38 PM
Hi Indie

love the idea of this all over Jeremy Kyle!!

That might upset the BWidow a touch.

Hang on in there, whatever happens ultimately, you will be fine, you are a strong and beautiful woman. You didn't deserve this.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 10:34 PM
I have three q's

I like the 'remember when' emails. Should I give it a day or so before trying that considering all the murder I've caused today (hehe)

When arranging the coffee date (considering making it a q drink in the pub (a stop by on my way to plans with old friends) as hes not a fan of coffee places) do i sort of say are you free today, or do i give him a few timing options? I know his work shift pattern now and he's off tues and weds

What is 'deep' plan b? How does it differ to what ive been doing already, no contact etc.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 10:48 PM
I personally would try to stay out of a pub. Maybe meet in a park, for an ice cream......Something like that. You want it to be really casual and light. That way, you can have a little flirty fun.

If you are going to do those emails, I would say do one on Monday and one on Wednesday. Don't make it too fake. Try to have a fond memory but one that may also make him laugh or get a little admiration in.

A dark Plan B is absolutely NO CONTACT. You can't even think about WH and OW. No seeing, no emails, no drop bys, no snooping, not a peep. CRICKETS. Get it?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 10:57 PM
Ok, light - got it.

So dark pB means no intermeiary and maybe actively blocking stuff like numbers and FB accounts so i dont even know about them?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 11:01 PM
One more thing, vets

In your vast experience would this reaction to posted evidence suggest her parents now know?

Just concerned that her sis might have intercepted, her parents are like the top priority on the exposure list as they are her helpers and babysitters ....
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 11:12 PM
Want to be sure ive got the 'remember when' concept right.....


Hey,

Do you remember when we were splashing about in the pool our first time in Mexico, just messing about and dunking each other? Been thinking about it all day. You said that my white bikini would go see through and I was all smug saying I had tested it in the shower. Just before I popped out my top on the water slide.

Come to think of it, I popped out my halter top on J's doorstep the night we got engaged. Something about being near you brings out the best in me!

You've always been there to make me laugh, make me happy, just by hanging out and being you. There've been so many good times. Don't want them to be forgotten, you know?

Just checking in with you.

Indie
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/18/11 11:48 PM
I like the remember when email. I might leave out the part about not wanting it to end though.

Can you think of anything that you can talk about that will make him feel strong and manly? That could be the second one.

and you WOULD have an IM during Plan B. Yes, you would block your FB. Remove him and her from FB and possibly anyone that you have in common, as there may be some cross posting. You should change your phone numbers and email addys. Plan B isn't a whole lot of fun to get into, but once everything is planned out and executed, it is a lot more peaceful. I actually get MAD MAD MAD when I hear something about WH and OW now. It effects me and I don't like it. But it is few and far between. Probably would be less for you without any children to pass on "innocent" things.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 12:39 AM
Scotland will lead you in the Plan B advice.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I have three q's

I like the 'remember when' emails. Should I give it a day or so before trying that considering all the murder I've caused today (hehe)

When arranging the coffee date (considering making it a q drink in the pub (a stop by on my way to plans with old friends) as hes not a fan of coffee places) do i sort of say are you free today, or do i give him a few timing options? I know his work shift pattern now and he's off tues and weds

What is 'deep' plan b? How does it differ to what ive been doing already, no contact etc.
IMO, I'd say to skip the 'remember when' emails with OW. That is trying to manipulate and teach a wayward - it typically doesn't work. I would not send anything to that wench that would even remotely appear to be an olive branch. This is WAR, indie. No warm fuzzies for OW. She is the ENEMY.

I don't know about the coffee date (he doesn't even like coffee places, right?) Why are you manufacturing a meeting like that with him?

Deep Plan B = total non-contact. That may be your best bet for getting his attention - your lack of attention.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 01:52 AM
MB, I didn't mean that the remember when emails would be sent to OW as well, just the Plan B letter.

I was trying to help Indie get in a few good Plan A moments since with him out of the house, she doesn't have a lot of opportunities before she actually enters Plan B.

Speaking of your Plan B preps, do you have things ready? Will you be getting support? Are you legally entitled to any? Do you know what you legal rights are? Do you have your own bank account? One that WH doesn't have access to. All of his things are gone right? He won't have any reason to contact you?

MB, the "meeting" is a Plan A move and was suggested by Pep. It is a good way to have some Plan A time and him wanting more. This way, when Plan B hits, there will be something to remember. If Indie is uncomfortable, or thinks that she would be too pressured, it would be best to not do it at all.

Indie, you are going to need to keep your Taker at bay big time. You won't want to do or say anything that will undo all of the hard work you have done. I want you to remember that. You just want to Plan A until the moment you Plan B. It is hard as heck, but it makes it easier when you are in Plan B. There won't be any doubt that you did EVERYTHING possible to save your marriage and you will be able to move on with a clear head. You can do this, just be prepared.
Posted By: Xau Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 09:14 AM
Indie a little support for your exposure route. Far to many Brits fear doing exposure, main message is so long as you tell the truth no one can touch you not even the law. The said newspaper is a bit sensationalist however the message is clear.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-affair-multi-millionaire-lover-web.html
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I have three q's

I like the 'remember when' emails. Should I give it a day or so before trying that considering all the murder I've caused today (hehe)

When arranging the coffee date (considering making it a q drink in the pub (a stop by on my way to plans with old friends) as hes not a fan of coffee places) do i sort of say are you free today, or do i give him a few timing options? I know his work shift pattern now and he's off tues and weds

What is 'deep' plan b? How does it differ to what ive been doing already, no contact etc.
IMO, I'd say to skip the 'remember when' emails with OW. That is trying to manipulate and teach a wayward - it typically doesn't work. I would not send anything to that wench that would even remotely appear to be an olive branch. This is WAR, indie. No warm fuzzies for OW. She is the ENEMY.

I don't know about the coffee date (he doesn't even like coffee places, right?) Why are you manufacturing a meeting like that with him?

Deep Plan B = total non-contact. That may be your best bet for getting his attention - your lack of attention.


Agree it is war with OW, not interested in showing her remember when emails, they are just for h.

should i cc her a copy of the plan B letter though? It would send her into jealous nutsy land, but not sure it falls under category of classy. Shes also tactical enough to show him and tell him i only want revenge.

the coffedate is supposed to be my only real attempt at plan a post exposure - do you think a bad idea. he doesnt loathe coffee places, he can have a juice.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 11:57 AM
CCing OW on the Plan B letter is actually in SAA. That is where I got the idea from. It came from DrH so I trust it 100%.

And, I don't drink coffee but I still go out for "coffee" with friends. What you drink doesn't matter, it's the environment that you are in. If you are in a public place, like a coffee shop, your WH will be on his best behaviour. He may turn you down too. It would still be plan A just asking him to join you. You could still go and then take a pic of a yummy drink or scone in front of an empty chair and write some comment with it. Maybe.....

How are you doing today? It may be a little slow today, as it is Father's Day. Have you given a stab at reading my thread? It is pretty long, but I went into Plan B around page 44. You may get some extra support by reading it. There have been A LOT of people who have helped me. Some of them rarely post anymore. It might be a good way to spend some time.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 02:16 PM
Quote
the coffedate is supposed to be my only real attempt at plan a post exposure - do you think a bad idea. he doesnt loathe coffee places, he can have a juice.
Can you pull off a good Plan A with him during this date? I'm just worried that it will devolve into finger-pointing and anger - can you be at your best Plan A? What will you do when he inevitably brings up the exposure and the fallout from it?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
CCing OW on the Plan B letter is actually in SAA. That is where I got the idea from. It came from DrH so I trust it 100%.

And, I don't drink coffee but I still go out for "coffee" with friends. What you drink doesn't matter, it's the environment that you are in. If you are in a public place, like a coffee shop, your WH will be on his best behaviour. He may turn you down too. It would still be plan A just asking him to join you. You could still go and then take a pic of a yummy drink or scone in front of an empty chair and write some comment with it. Maybe.....

How are you doing today? It may be a little slow today, as it is Father's Day. Have you given a stab at reading my thread? It is pretty long, but I went into Plan B around page 44. You may get some extra support by reading it. There have been A LOT of people who have helped me. Some of them rarely post anymore. It might be a good way to spend some time.


I trust DrH an I trust you, just aware that have been putting my plans in place in a mixed order! Will take a look at thread
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
the coffedate is supposed to be my only real attempt at plan a post exposure - do you think a bad idea. he doesnt loathe coffee places, he can have a juice.
Can you pull off a good Plan A with him during this date? I'm just worried that it will devolve into finger-pointing and anger - can you be at your best Plan A? What will you do when he inevitably brings up the exposure and the fallout from it?


I can do it. I can do anything. When he brings up the fall out from exposure ill just change the subject.

Ive been talked around in circles so much by him im an expert

H- shes really upset and asked me tell you its not on.

M- youre a really good friend. Remember the time...(something comp diff happened)

If he goes, he goes.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 02:27 PM
But should I do it is the question, i have mixed my plans up a lot

I plan A'd for a week before exposure, though I had been non love busting for months and meeting his needs to some extent

I went staight to kicking him out and saying no contact, made him pick up his stuff.

now the plan pencilled in is a 'remember when' email to him

asking if he wants a q coffee

sending him lan B letter, with her cc'd in too.

Is this a plan that will work?
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 03:27 PM
Remember to add the comments suggested at the bottom of the plan b letter you are sending her.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
But should I do it is the question, i have mixed my plans up a lot

I plan A'd for a week before exposure, though I had been non love busting for months and meeting his needs to some extent

I went staight to kicking him out and saying no contact, made him pick up his stuff.

now the plan pencilled in is a 'remember when' email to him

asking if he wants a q coffee

sending him lan B letter, with her cc'd in too.

Is this a plan that will work?

Yes. But are you completely prepared for Plan B? Do you have an intermediary set up? Does your intermediary understand their role? There is a thread around here about how to be an intermediary that explains this very well. I'll see if I can find the link. Are your finances set up in such a way that you can do Plan B without having to contact him at all? Are you protected financially? I don't remember if you have children, but if you do, have you figured out kid exchanges if there will be visitation? If your answers to all of these questions are yes, then yes, this is a good plan.

I love the coffee shop idea. Plan A like a Rock Star no matter what he says during this visit. Remember your goal-- to Plan A.

When do you plan on giving him the Plan B letter? And yes, definitely CC her.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 05:00 PM
We have no kids, this is why I want to sort this out. Im a young woman (IM A GREAT CATCH) and I want a family some day. I either want to figure out if there is any hope here - or move on with no regrets. Im not being cake for him to eat.

Got so mad today at all the fogbabble hes given me over the past year

"we'll still be friends - i'll make sure you don't get sucked in by any losers who are no good for you, ill look out for you still - just want it so we can still talk if we need to - If im away from you maybe ill realise what ive lost...."

TOO BAD

Im struggling to find an intermediary, everyone says theyre 'too angry for me' 'dont want to get sucked in to arguments'
my bro is my best shot here i think, but i would need to coach him a lot. As it stands I am the calmest one!

He says he can do if he doesnt have to think on his feet. If I give him a stock answer he has to stick to. So that stock answer should be 'its in the letter, will you agree to the letter, she hasnt said anything else'

Finances will be fine, just need sorting out
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Scotland
CCing OW on the Plan B letter is actually in SAA. That is where I got the idea from. It came from DrH so I trust it 100%.

And, I don't drink coffee but I still go out for "coffee" with friends. What you drink doesn't matter, it's the environment that you are in. If you are in a public place, like a coffee shop, your WH will be on his best behaviour. He may turn you down too. It would still be plan A just asking him to join you. You could still go and then take a pic of a yummy drink or scone in front of an empty chair and write some comment with it. Maybe.....

How are you doing today? It may be a little slow today, as it is Father's Day. Have you given a stab at reading my thread? It is pretty long, but I went into Plan B around page 44. You may get some extra support by reading it. There have been A LOT of people who have helped me. Some of them rarely post anymore. It might be a good way to spend some time.


I trust DrH an I trust you, just aware that have been putting my plans in place in a mixed order! Will take a look at thread


Love it, particularly that your 'answering machine was broke' I thought my wh was funny.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
"we'll still be friends - i'll make sure you don't get sucked in by any losers who are no good for you, ill look out for you still - just want it so we can still talk if we need to - If im away from you maybe ill realise what ive lost...."

Yup. Just more ways to justify things in his own mind. Sure I was unfaithful and strayed ... but hey I am still looking out for her and her best interests. Gee I am such a nice guy.

Indie, I am so glad that you can see through this. Not letting him get away with this is part of the reality and consequences of how he is living his life.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 05:25 PM
Keep reading, it gets better MrRollieEyes

Get everything sorted out, and you will be okay.

If you can't find an IM IRL, I would be willing to be an email IM for you. Just ask the mods to send my your email addy. laugh
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 05:45 PM
Just remember, ws' are notorious for trying to never completely burn a bridge with their bs. Some who want to really cake eat do this. My xwh did that too.

he even tried to tell me he wished that:
1)we could amicably divorce
2)he'd move me into same subdivision, albeit in a less pricey part of it
3)we could still have sunday dinners together (yea like me cook for him and his ho?)and he could come over to dinner at MY house (I am NOT his ho)
4)we'd get to be friends (ie me get to be friends with his ho)

My answer was no with a quick hang up of the phone.

You see, they don't want to be viewed by the world as the "bad guy or girl" and they also deep down want BOTH of you and since they're having or forced to make a choice they initially choose many times the addiction. Sadly THAT INITIAL CHOICE IS REGRETTED BEYOND BELIEF BY THE WS and many come home after that.

He's foggy and wacked in the head right now. He also is missing some of the wonderful things you do for him, and the ENs you still meet. He's gotten himself into quite a fix, and he's got these crazy addiction type brain neurotransmitters making him feel one thing, but his THINKING brain is wanting him to do something else. So he's messed up.

Your job is plan B. Go silent and dark. UN-CONFUSE that foggy brain of his. Once everybody knows that ow is a horrid skank who has come on to all of her dead husbands' married male friends, there will be no welcoming committee for her.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 06:31 PM
Scotland I may have to take you up on that. Just asked my bro if he would be an email only IM -wouldnt have to talk and he said 'not comfortable'. Sigh.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/19/11 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by peachyisback
Just remember, ws' are notorious for trying to never completely burn a bridge with their bs. Some who want to really cake eat do this. My xwh did that too.

he even tried to tell me he wished that:
1)we could amicably divorce
2)he'd move me into same subdivision, albeit in a less pricey part of it
3)we could still have sunday dinners together (yea like me cook for him and his ho?)and he could come over to dinner at MY house (I am NOT his ho)
4)we'd get to be friends (ie me get to be friends with his ho)

My answer was no with a quick hang up of the phone.

You see, they don't want to be viewed by the world as the "bad guy or girl" and they also deep down want BOTH of you and since they're having or forced to make a choice they initially choose many times the addiction. Sadly THAT INITIAL CHOICE IS REGRETTED BEYOND BELIEF BY THE WS and many come home after that.

He's foggy and wacked in the head right now. He also is missing some of the wonderful things you do for him, and the ENs you still meet. He's gotten himself into quite a fix, and he's got these crazy addiction type brain neurotransmitters making him feel one thing, but his THINKING brain is wanting him to do something else. So he's messed up.

Your job is plan B. Go silent and dark. UN-CONFUSE that foggy brain of his. Once everybody knows that ow is a horrid skank who has come on to all of her dead husbands' married male friends, there will be no welcoming committee for her.


I hate the word amicable - had it thrown at me so many times. Break ups - especailly of marriages are never amicable!

If you want to break someone's heart - fess up, do it honestly and ideally without screwing their friends.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 12:32 AM
Had a good time tonight.

Walked into our local with H's mum ( I looked very good!). A mutual friend got me up to sing 'these boots are made for walkin' Lots of people telling me I could do SO MUCH better. A male friend (from a couple we know) asked for me to email him the text pics. He says H's friends know they are being lied to and want the evidence 'that they will go spare at being lied to'.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 12:53 AM
Well done indie, just a little warning though be cautious around males right now especially the ones who know about your situation as they might see you as an easy target to acquire as they might perceive you as vulnerable and have your guards down.

I know your not stupid but just thought to bring it up to make sure your not overly trusting of anyone just because they claim to be on your side.
Originally Posted by peachyisback
You see, they don't want to be viewed by the world as the "bad guy or girl" and they also deep down want BOTH of you and since they're having or forced to make a choice they initially choose many times the addiction. Sadly THAT INITIAL CHOICE IS REGRETTED BEYOND BELIEF BY THE WS and many come home after that.

Yes peachy is correct, and do you know why they want to look like the nice guy? They are afraid. Afraid of being caught with thier hand in the cookie jar, thier pants down, running away from what people are supposed to do as responsible adults, but they want it thier way and can't "Help the way they feel", and all kinds of puke of that nature. If they had guts, (which they don't), because they stood on the solid foundations of love as others know it to be,(which thier foundation is sand), they would care less if they were the nice guy, because they would trade that anyday for being the loving guy.

Originally Posted by peachyisback
He's foggy and wacked in the head right now. He also is missing some of the wonderful things you do for him, and the ENs you still meet. He's gotten himself into quite a fix, and he's got these crazy addiction type brain neurotransmitters making him feel one thing, but his THINKING brain is wanting him to do something else. So he's messed up.
Yup, and he just doesn't understand that he can't have both things as he sees them, or maybe believe that it is what he is doing is the problem. It the easy adultry emotional escapism that in the long run is no escape at all, he is fooling himself. If you want to get what is right you need to do right, and he is taking the easy way out.

Originally Posted by NB28
Well done indie, just a little warning though be cautious around males right now especially the ones who know about your situation as they might see you as an easy target to acquire as they might perceive you as vulnerable and have your guards down.

I know your not stupid but just thought to bring it up to make sure your not overly trusting of anyone just because they claim to be on your side.
I agree with this also. I accually knew men who were predators looking for angry upset women who want to get back at thier H or BF, and had no problem pulling the wool over the Girls eyes, and also those guys stupid enough to try to save the Damsel in Distress, fall in love, and cause more problems than they helped. They mean well but get drawn into the drama.

If you seek a male friend for counsel, make sure he is professional and REALLY cares about you and your wellbeing, like a member of clergy or personal IC with maturity who will help you gain freedom rather than another form of inapropiate emotional attachtment.


Originally Posted by peachyisback
Your job is plan B. Go silent and dark. UN-CONFUSE that foggy brain of his. Once everybody knows that ow is a horrid skank who has come on to all of her dead husbands' married male friends, there will be no welcoming committee for her.

I second this of course. Sounds like you need a good IM and as Scotland has offered I would message a Moderator as she asked.. Just MHO.

You have a lot of heavy hitters here for you.

God Bless and best wishes
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by NB28
Remember to add the comments suggested at the bottom of the plan b letter you are sending her.
??? indie, are you sending a Plan B letter to OW??? I didn't have to do a Plan B letter, so I will defer to others who have, but is this not giving some ammunition to the OW?
Thats a good point MB. I didn't read the whole thread but somewhere I saw a recommendtion of CC a copy of something.

Indie the Plan B letter is personal between you and WH, so just think it over if its not allready crystal why you would send a copy of the plan B to her.

Now I know exposure letters are sometimes CCed to OWs or OMs. It pulls a lot of weight when it a workplace issue and they see that management, all thier friends or aquantence, co workers, know what up.

Just be sure of what you are doing, so you don't let skank get any info that will help her.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 02:24 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
CCing OW on the Plan B letter is actually in SAA. That is where I got the idea from. It came from DrH so I trust it 100%.

Originally Posted by Scotland
When you send your WH the Plan B letter, you should send her a copy of it as well with an extra line that says something like, "I am willing to make WH happy and I am patient enough to wait you out.". This way she knows that he didn't pick her. That YOU forced him to do this and that you aren't going away that easily. If you are going to email it to her, make sure that you get a new email addy first. I figured out that my WHs OW probably didn't get the letter. She most likely bloacked me. Oh well. Doesn't matter much.



Hey MBliss
just for reference my comment was a follow on from scotlands plan b letter suggestion quoted above.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 02:51 AM
NB, thank you. Like I said, I never had to do a Plan B, so I'm not the expert. My concern is that a 'love letter' like a Plan B letter, should be between husband and wife. If Dr. H. says it should include the OW I won't comment further.

Although I am stunned to read that it should include the OW. I need to go back and read SAA again to clarify this in my mind.

Oops - I commented further. smile
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 02:57 AM
I am far from the expert on plan B. Just thought in the case of this specific OW it would be appropriate as she is the he Jelous hysterical type and reading about her new boyfriends good marital moments will inevitably send her on a spin. Plus the little extra note at the bottom is a nice FU message.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 03:09 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by NB28
Remember to add the comments suggested at the bottom of the plan b letter you are sending her.
??? indie, are you sending a Plan B letter to OW??? I didn't have to do a Plan B letter, so I will defer to others who have, but is this not giving some ammunition to the OW?

You CC THE Plan B letter to the OW. With an added line, it was in SAA. It lets the OW KNOW that the choice was not WHs and it throws a further wrench in the A.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 03:13 AM
Thank you for jumping in here, Scotty!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 03:14 AM
I guess I needed to read the rest of the posts before I decided to do some posting of my own.

As I stated though, it IS in SAA. I read it when I was going to go into Plan B myself. It isn't often suggested. I think that is mainly because the BS doesn't always know the contact info for the OP. In my case, I did. Looking back though, I think she may have blocked my email addy and I should have used one of the other ones I have that she doesn't know about.

I used to take solace in the fact that she knew about the Plan B letter. It made me feel like she knew that there was a time limit on this A and I would be waiting.

Sorry Indie, just thought I would clarify it, didn't mean to T/J
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 03:17 AM
Thank you so much for helping indie, Scotty! smile
I think its an awesome stratedgy also, psycologically<sp> the OP will see how much the Wayward used to love the BS, and the pressure will be on that could break the fantasy faster. Lots of different angles there.

I guess my worry was generated because I thought MB or the Forums might be mentioned in the Plan B letter,(and that probably isn't nessesary that they be made specific), and as you said MB it might be a source of information OP could use against BS, or help in legal matters.

Good to know because I had allways suggested Dr H be recomended in plan B letters as one way for a WS to look for a way back.

Of course an ammended form of Plan B letter could be sent with Marriage Buliders, Dr H, and the Forums left out along with the added line suggested. But still I am glad I know that now. Thanks guys.
Yup, Like scotty said
Scotty your so polite!! Your words and wisdom are never a T/J
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 03:40 AM
I didn't know that the Plan B letter would have MB mentioned. If it did, I would worry more that WH found it, not OW. The thread could always be yanked if needs arose.

MB, I help whenever I can. There is not much I know about recovery, and I try to do the best with what others have written and what I have read through DrH. I just don't KNOW the marital recovery aspect. There are things I know about Plan A, and Plan B. Not that I am an expert, but I will help whenever I can. laugh Thank you for your help with Indie as well. laugh


I hope you are getting some well deserved sleep Indie. hug
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 03:42 AM
Quote
Plus the little extra note at the bottom is a nice FU message

IMVHO, It's OKAY to Plan F/U an OP. grin
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 09:16 AM
Look at you all supporting me while I sleep!!

So I plan to send him a remember when email today.
I will start preparing for plan b too. get rid of the few things he's left, sort finances, sort IM arrangements.

Tomorrow he is apparently going somewhere with her and the kids to release balloons or something for DFs birthday and fathers day. No comment....

wednesday ill ask him to meet for coffee

thursday another remember when email.

friday ill send the plan b letter, as long as i have managed to ge everything in place for plan b

Ill cc her too - it will turn her crazed.



Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 01:22 PM
Now THAT is a PLAN. grin

Sounds good to me. If he accepts your invite, we will support you in that as well. Have you read Schoolbus's body language thread? You should be able to use some of those strategies if you get a chance for a fave to face before Plan B.

Taking care of yourself?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 03:53 PM
Had a pretty bad afternoon. Cleared out the last of his stuff, put brand new bedding on the bed. Felt I was clearing him out of our bed. Couldnt breathe. Found a tee shirt of his with his smell still on it. made me feel sick

Found out today a young cousin of mine had seen them holding hands while shopping few weeks ago. Poor kid hadnt known what to make of it.

Found a diary of mine in which I describe his distant, maddening inexplicable behaviour as a problem which is mine to solve. Its dated 2004.

Wondering if he has cheated before.

Very tempted to skip straight to plan FU.

However I am storng enough to do plan B and it is the right thing to do. Plan B is about protecting myself.

It will mean there are no unexorcised ghosts in my past.

It will mean I have set a high bar for him to jump over. The sort of high bar only a racehorse, worthy of me, could jump

Feel pretty sure he never will jump it though because pigs cant jump that high.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Feel pretty sure he never will jump it though because pigs cant jump that high.

rotflmao

indie, you're doing great. You've got excellent advisors here, and, most importantly, you have a PLAN. WSs? They NEVER have a plan. Even if it doesn't feel like it, you're in the driver's seat now. smile
Originally Posted by indiegirl
.Feel pretty sure he never will jump it though because pigs cant jump that high.
hurray

I second that Mrs V and thats the way to roll Indie,( Can I hear Raiders of the lost ark theme?)

Set that bar high and be that thorughbred.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
..However I am storng enough to do plan B and it is the right thing to do. Plan B is about protecting myself.

It will mean there are no unexorcised ghosts in my past...

And this too..Yup Yup
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 07:16 PM
That's the right attitude to enter Plan B.

You stick to your guns.

Know that there may come time during this week that you will worry about if this is the right thing and the fear will try to take over. The fear of the unknown. The fear is not the right way to go. What I did was remind myself that when I was thinking more clearly, Plan B was the right choice. I decided that I needed to just plow forward, and I did. Look at me now. grin

Hearing that they were seen holding hands sure does make it a lot easier for you to have exposed with a clear head. You know that they were having an affair all along. Without that exposure, your young cousin would have live with that guilt of not having told you.

Funny how you start looking back and seeing other possible times when WH may have had another A. I did it too. I even realized that my WH may have actually been an OM in someone else's M before we got married. All something that my WH will have to deal with.

Raise that bar high, and if you get a chance to recover, let us make sure you stick to that bar. laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 08:26 PM
When it came right down to it, I couldnt send the remember when email.

Plan B, while still do-able strength-wise, isnt appealing today. Perhaps because Im having an emotional day, perhaps because I have run clean out of reasons to care at all about what he does.

I think what it comes down to is he craves affection and understanding from me. And I dont want to give it to him.

Going to take a few weeks to think about my next move. I'm going to decorate the house - do all the things he wouldnt help me with - with my family.

Im going to make my finances independent and see a lawyer about a divorce. Plus find out just what is on my computer.

Then i will be able to make a properly considered move. Plan B is all written up and in my back pocket if I want to use it. I have that control thanks to all of you. Blimey, I have my life thanks to all of you.

Will keep you updated! You know I can't stay away.....
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 08:32 PM
By the by, it appears they have the support of her parents. She has been going door to door, with her mum and sis, rubutting the 'lies' I have told.

Her dad has offered him the use of an empty house he owns. (Though concern for reputations means he hasnt taken this up)
This is somone who my h has a drink with every weekend. When DF died, DFs FiL mentioned this habit they'd had of drinking together before going home for Sunday dinner. My h filled this gap and began a tradition of filling in for him. (but then staying out instead of coming home to eat)

If someone had been drinking with MY dad, while I was grieving and they were trying to get into my pants the whole time, my dad would give the guy a bloody nose, not a free house.

Weirdos.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 08:42 PM
Indie sorry your having a bad day and you might not like me for what I'm about to say but I can't help butting in here at this point.

It is clear that as you sit here today and read all your diary entries and look over the relationship you had with you WH that you have regrets.
The other clear fact here is that no matter how bad your feeling right now it is linked to the fact that you love your WH dearly (if you dont wouldn't be this painful).

So putting those two elements together I don't want you to waste a valuable opportunity to get your marriage back and have regrets in the future that you didn't do anything to fight for it, I don't want you to read these posts 10 months from now and say "gee I really wish I had done the plan/ email etc, maybe if I had then I would be in better shape now rather than months on and still struggling".

So my advice is that considering you have tons of guts at times and a few moments of wavering, work through those moments and come out the other side. The sooner you get your ducks in a row and start doing something the sooner your suffering will end.

Sorry to kick you while your down but I know your stronger than this.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 08:46 PM
Her parents wise it appears that dumbness is genetic in that family. God help those poor kids she has.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
She has been going door to door, with her mum and sis, rubutting the 'lies' I have told.

Most people will see through her lies. Regardless, it doesn't matter if she calls you a liar, the point of exposure was to put as many eyes as possible on OW and WH. I think you accomplished this task very well. smile

Try not to think about OW and her weird family. Just focus on your plan, which is a very good one!!!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 08:59 PM
Ok. I just can't start today for some reason. Realise ive been at low points before and bounced back. Having a night in with my mum tonight. Need to regroup my strength.
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 09:50 PM
Well you can always expose more. And is there a way in your country to call the ow into court if it goes that far? I think THAT would stop her from spreading her venomous lies.

Sadly, your wh is knee deep in crap right now with her and she is somehow brainwashing him.

ONE POINT we haven't discussed is this. WHEN you have your face to face coffeeshop meeting with your wh, maybe you should mention to him what NOBODY HAS SAID here before...

If she is bringing out his Knight in Shining Armour thing, why not PRESENT THE TRUTH to him casually. Like "I know you think you're protecting his wife and kids, but seriously..if he were alive WOULD YOUR BFF WANT YOU BONKING HIS WIFE?" HOW DOES THAT EXACTLY HONOR HIS MEMORY?

That should be said if nobody has said that thus far. Maybe it's a disrespectful judgement, but it's the truth and might pull him out of the KISA role he's been playing and pretending.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 11:39 PM
Indie, it is quite normal to go back and forth like this(although quite frustrating to those of us who are watching you go through this). What I want to remind you is that earlier in this very thread, you were ready to go to a Plan F/U. We helped you see that there is still something there for you.

I want to ask you a question and I want you to be completely honest. If your WH came home TODAY, right now, hat in hands, saying, "Indie, I am so sorry to have hurt you. You are the only one I have ever loved. I want to be with you for LIFE. Will you take me back," would you? If there is even the smallest chance that you WOULD, then Plan B is the way to go.

Just because you enter Plan B, doesn't mean that you NEED to recover your marriage. You can make the choice to give him the heave-ho after a considerable amount of time.

And you know what I see when I see them going door to door? EXPOSURE WORKED. I am so JEALOUS. I wish my exposure worked as well as yours.

If you think that you really can't do much more of a Plan A, I would suggest you get into Plan B sooner rather than later, could you be ready in 48 hours or so? You really need this. Think about it.

ETA(this is what I get for posting while I am cooking)- Also, what happens when you haven't talked to your WH for a few weeks and you really start to miss him and the "what ifs" start? You'll be able to KNOW that you did EVERYTHING that you could.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/20/11 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Ok. I just can't start today for some reason. Realise ive been at low points before and bounced back. Having a night in with my mum tonight. Need to regroup my strength.
Dealing with infidelity can be debilitating. Listen to Scotland, indie. Look at her as your guide right now.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 12:02 AM
[quote=Scotland]I want to ask you a question and I want you to be completely honest. If your WH came home TODAY, right now, hat in hands, saying, "Indie, I am so sorry to have hurt you. You are the only one I have ever loved. I want to be with you for LIFE. Will you take me back," would you? If there is even the smallest chance that you WOULD, then Plan B is the way to go. [quote]

I would tell him to get lost. I just would
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Scotland
ETA(this is what I get for posting while I am cooking)- Also, what happens when you haven't talked to your WH for a few weeks and you really start to miss him and the "what ifs" start? You'll be able to KNOW that you did EVERYTHING that you could.


This is where I don't know. I've hardly been consistent.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 12:19 AM
You haven't been consistent because you have been on that emotional roller coaster. That's why it is important to have a PLAN.

Okay, since you are at a Plan F/U moment right now(totally understandable), I will try a different question. Can you positively 100% certain tell me that you will NEVER want to take your WH back?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
You haven't been consistent because you have been on that emotional roller coaster. That's why it is important to have a PLAN.

Okay, since you are at a Plan F/U moment right now(totally understandable), I will try a different question. Can you positively 100% certain tell me that you will NEVER want to take your WH back?


Today yes, tomorrow perhaps no.

Ok , I get it.

Though I may want plan B to fail tonight - and it therefore seems odd to commit to doing it, its just to protect me from my future self.

I'll get back on the pony tomorrow.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 01:00 AM
Plqn B won't fail. Plan B is about getting YOU recovered. As long as you follow it, you won't fail. I guarantee it. laugh

Your Taker is letting loose. That's okay, just remember that we are all made of a giver and a taker. You can't live in either one only for very long before the other one wants a turn. Roller coaster ride that we ALL wanted a refund for.
Originally Posted by Scotland
Plqn B won't fail. Plan B is about getting YOU recovered. As long as you follow it, you won't fail. I guarantee it. laugh

Your Taker is letting loose. That's okay, just remember that we are all made of a giver and a taker. You can't live in either one only for very long before the other one wants a turn. Roller coaster ride that we ALL wanted a refund for.
rotflmao

Yes scotty, your Kung foo is strong.

Listen to her Indie, plan B will help you so much. It will heal you and help you with those ghosts you talked about earlier.

As far as the door to door thing, most people will see that for what it is. Bull.

Like scotty said, its totally understandable you want to do plan F/U, but I think from what I hear from you it will serve you well in the future if you go out doing everything suggested here.

One day, when I asked a fellow worker, what he would do if his wife was acting like a fool, embarassing him, disrespecting him, would he give her a divorce willingly? He said, "I wouldn't give her the satisfaction"

After thinking about it I realized thats what they count on, that you will get so upset that you will pull the trigger, and be the bad guy.

If you REALLY want to make him pay, go out with your head held high, and his stupidity and dishonor showing to have taken complete control of him.

Either way plan B works FOR YOU, let him pull the trigger, or give him enough rope to hang himself, but don't plan F/U just yet. In the end and for the rest of his life, he will be forced to respect that you had the nuts he did not, and gave him a chance to man up. Maybe he will man up also, and you can see him straighten out enough to admit he was wrong and appoligize. Either way, you do not have to reconcile, but you can be in the position of control when he sees you are a fighter and not giving up that easy. Life is full of conflict, it how we handle it that defines us. Go down swinging Indie.

Listen to Scotty, she knows of what she speaks
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 12:24 PM
Indie, a few months ago, I was ready to do a full on Plan F/U. I was talking to my friends at my boxing class when my trainer said, "Scotty, you're better than that." It hit me right in the gut, cuz he was right, I AM better than that. And, I am happy that I stayed in Plan B. It was just that my LB had taken a HUGE hit(funny, I can't even remember what it was about now, huh). My Taker wanted to hit back. I am glad I listened to my PT. He was right. laugh

So, again, I will ask, are you taking care of yourself? We keep asking you this because it is important. It helps keep your Taker at bay. What do you do to release your anger and frustration? That will help too.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 12:47 PM
Just sent the remember when email. It actually felt pretty good.
Now I need to get prepared for Plan B

Get his stuff out of here

Change my numbers

Block his email, FB account

Switch bills so I am paying

Sort out IM.

Scotty did you get my email address?

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 01:00 PM
Not yet. Did you notify Mods?

I notified for them to send you mine
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 01:13 PM
Yes, I notified them as soon as you offered! Doing it again now
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 01:33 PM
Well done indie I know you can do this.

Are you still planning to meet him for coffee?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 01:34 PM
As for looking after myself. hmm.

I sleep, I eat, I tell people when I need hugs, I go out and have fun, Im going to start doing an art class, looking into taking a one year postgrad degree course that could be ace for my career, which wanted to do for long time

Even considering travelling, a major ambition of mine.

I need the rest of his stuff out etc though before I feel I really am taking care of myself.

Do I release anger? I haven't even seen a sign of anger yet, which in itself is pretty sad.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 01:35 PM
The coffee thing? Yes I can do that blindfold. Its part of work-me, I have a great pokerface
Ill call him and ask tomorrow
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
After thinking about it I realized thats what they count on, that you will get so upset that you will pull the trigger, and be the bad guy.

go out with your head held high, and his stupidity and dishonor showing to have taken complete control of him.

I totally agree !! Don't let him off that easy.

Indie, your thread is really bringing it all back to me. That wave of emotions that would just hit me from nowhere. The back and forth from wanting nothing to do with him one second and then back to wanting my life back the next second. It was an endless cycle. At one point, I thought I was going to have to check in at the psych ward down the street (seriously).

Finally, I made the decision NOT to make a decision. I decided that whenever I started thinking about what I wanted, I would choose not to decide. Because lets face it... I really had no idea what I wanted at that point.

I gave myself a deadline ... one year. THEN I would decide.

During that one year, I cleaned up my side of the street and gave H the opportunity to clean up his.

This is the beauty of plan B, it leaves the door open while at the same time helping you become a stronger well adjusted person. YOU come out of it with your own self respect.

This is what helped me Indie ... deciding not to decide right now.

Hugs.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 02:50 PM
Is a timecale something to decide now?

Scotland went for two years, Pokerface chose one.

At this point I am considering six months, but realise it is very early days.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Is a timecale something to decide now?

Scotland went for two years, Pokerface chose one.

Indie,

That was just the timeframe that popped into my head and seemed reasonable to me personally. It was the point where I was going to revisit where things were... But I found that it gave me focus and made me feel more in control having something to work toward.

Pick a time that you feel is reasonable for you and your own circumstances.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 04:30 PM
Six months then.

He emailed me back

GROANNNN - I messed up, should really beware of cut and paste,
Oh well, I can recover that one.

Here's his reply anyway:

"I can't really understand the logic in this, it's quite a friendly email yet my name ( & in my eyes, more importantly others) have been dragged through the mud - quite publicly on a day that it shouldnt have.

I hate having to be a part of this whole scenario full stop, more so that I've had to resort to messaging on facebook or replying to emails (that frankly confuse me). Or having to deal with your sis who doesnt need it considering how ill she's been.

In hindsight I could have done things differently, but I've done nothing in a 'cruel' manner - despite however angry I may have been or felt, it's not my nature.

I'll say I 'remember when' we got on, the fact we dont as well as we did through growing apart or whatever is OUR issue, no one elses.

When I (& even yourself) calm down we have things to discuss, like what happens to the house an bills etc, as I can't afford to pay bills for two places. I've had enough. It's too late for me to sort out July so that's fair enough. It will be the last month I pay anything asides from my half of the mortgage - I don't live at home now, so why should I be paying as if I am.

Apologies if seeming blunt but to want to 'check in' surprises me, as I've either done what you've said - so question why would you want to check in?
Or I'm not having the affair and you're in a hell of hole that cant be dug out of. Either way it simply doesnt make sense as to why you'd want to 'check in' - not to me anyway.

I can't understand..... what exactly is the purpose of this, in fact dont answer it as I have no concern of the actual answer. Yeah while there have been many good times - simple fact is unfortunately they're past tense."


Hehe

So he's 'frankly confused' Must be uncomforatable having that boot on the other foot. I remember the feeling well.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 04:58 PM
WHATEVER YOU DO - DO NOT RESPOND TO HIS EMAIL.

he is trying to ruin the email you sent him and thats typical too, if it didnt get to him then he wouldnt be fighting it the way he is. As tempting as it may be do not respond to his email. just carry on with your plan and maybe add a little extra bit to the next remember when email saying "Im remembering because i care" or something more profound that the more gifted people on here can help you with.

Well done again Indie.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 05:06 PM
Cheers. Sorting out bills at the mo. Just got one set up so I start paying from the exact date he moved out. No reason I cant do same with rest. One account has just told me I need his password for account which is a pain
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 05:55 PM
you may have gotten this info yet, but google IE Pass Revealer, also known as Internet Explorer Password Finder. then hide it in a folder- unzip and run. you will have all of the internet explorer passwords that were on the computer- if thats the primary browser you use
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 06:31 PM
Indie, got your email. I'll be responding in a bit.

Oh well, you goofed a bit with that "remember when" line. Again, a little jealous over here. My WH didn't even mention the emails or texts at all. It was like they didn't even happen. I still did them though, cuz it was MY plan. laugh

Getting your finances and everything figured out is good for you. Keep it up.

As far as the timing for Plan B. The main reason that I said at least 2 years is only because that is what DrH suggests. That is because MOST affairs die a natural death within 2 years of exposure. I understand that you want to get your life moving forward because you really want to have children. I already have all of the children I want, so I can afford to wait longer, I get that. It is going to be a choice that is yours to make alone. Maybe instead of saying that your limit is 6 months, you can say that you will reevaluate at 6 months and see where you want to go. K? Sending email soon.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
As far as the timing for Plan B. The main reason that I said at least 2 years is only because that is what DrH suggests. That is because MOST affairs die a natural death within 2 years of exposure. I understand that you want to get your life moving forward because you really want to have children. I already have all of the children I want, so I can afford to wait longer, I get that. It is going to be a choice that is yours to make alone. Maybe instead of saying that your limit is 6 months, you can say that you will reevaluate at 6 months and see where you want to go.


Im sure I will reevaluate, seems sensible.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 07:47 PM
Did I just say something that seems sensible? Oh no!!!!!!!!!!!

Am I growing up? NOOOOOO That can't be. frown

J/K of course. wink

You've got email BTW.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 07:57 PM
Think I have managed to translate his waffle.......

I can't really understand the logic in this, it's quite a friendly email yet my name ( & in my eyes, more importantly others) have been dragged through the mud - quite publicly on a day that it shouldnt have.

You're being friendly and I want you to be the bad guy. Telling other people I am the bad guy is NOT FAIR WAHHHHHHHH!!!!!

I hate having to be a part of this whole scenario full stop, more so that I've had to resort to messaging on facebook or replying to emails (that frankly confuse me). Or having to deal with your sis who doesnt need it considering how ill she's been.

I cant blow smoke up your ar$e using the channels of communication you've left open

In hindsight I could have done things differently, but I've done nothing in a 'cruel' manner - despite however angry I may have been or felt, it's not my nature.

I'm feeling guiltier than ever[/b]

If you want ***edit***- I'll say I 'remember when' we got on, the fact we dont as well as we did through growing apart or whatever is OUR issue, no one elses.

[b]My affair with her is your fault. Yes it is yes it is yes it is.


When I (& even yourself) calm down we have things to discuss, like what happens to the house an bills etc, as I can't afford to pay bills for two places. I've had enough. It's too late for me to sort out July so that's fair enough. It will be the last month I pay anything asides from my half of the mortgage - I don't live at home now, so why should I be paying as if I am.

[b]Im SO nice. You take advantage of my good nature. Are you feeling guilty yet?[/b]

Apologies if seeming blunt but to want to 'check in' surprises me, as I've either done what you've said - so question why would you want to check in?
Or I'm not having the affair and you're in a hell of hole that cant be dug out of. Either way it simply doesn't make sense as to why you'd want to 'check in' - not to me anyway.
Youre being really nice and calm and that scares me to death. I also have no idea how to bluff my way through this.

I can't understand the Want to be sure ive got the **edit**concept right..... what exactly is the purpose of this, in fact dont answer it as I have no concern of the actual answer. Yeah while there have been many good times - simple fact is unfortunately they're past tense.
If I pretend I dont feel anything, maybe this awful guilt and confusion will just go away
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 08:31 PM
I beleive you have aquired the MB gift of WS BullS000t translating, well done soon you will be a pro.
Originally Posted by NB28
I beleive you have aquired the MB gift of WS BullS000t translating, well done soon you will be a pro.
ITA
What children these waywards become as they steal OUR innocence and trust from us and try to jade use

Remember that this is the way all waywards speak. Like little kids justifying as they go along. This can change and he could come home and applogize while you kick him in the ar$e and chase him around the room awhile to get it out of your system

Or however you work it out really. Thumbsctews? The rack?

All is not lost but for now his brain is. You have Scotland helping now so let her cause she is both tender and tough in all the right places

Btw a 6 mo timeframe and then a reconsideration is an awesome and prudent idea
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 09:46 PM
Gotta share this insight from my five-year-old niece:

She's walking around this afternoon repeating 'Plan B, Plan B' to herself (Such big ears, she was in the other part of the house)

I stop her and say 'Sweetheart, what are you talking about? what is Plan B?"

She says: "It is about saving somebody".

Me: "Saving somebody from what?"

Her: "A giant killer hedgehog!"

Make of that what you will.....
You've got to put that on the MB little kiddie storys thread
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 10:00 PM
OK, just made me cry! Priceless, Indie.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 10:54 PM
Just have!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/21/11 11:02 PM
Well, that could be your MB nickname for your WH. Mine is Bampot, and it is Scottish for "idiot." How about "Hedgie?" And give that niece a hug. She's priceless.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 12:19 PM
Just called mr hedgie to ask about coffee and he hung up on me!


The cheeky wayward.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 01:23 PM
Try texting him maybe i bet he is just in shock.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 01:26 PM
just done it.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 02:15 PM
Had a 'why would i' response, guess thats a no!

Can do something else with this beautiful afternoon instead then.

Have started daydreaming about my new husband. Hes lovely,
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 02:27 PM
From Corinthians,

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 03:10 PM
Mr. Hedgie: why would i
Indie: To spend some time with your fabulous wife!

BE HAPPY and FLIRTY -- it will confuse the chit out of him!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 03:42 PM
great tip, thanks.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 04:00 PM
is it advisible to say that you want to talk money, house bills etc and then when you get there you dont talk about that? im not sure deceiving him into meeting you is the answer but its just a possible suggestion.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Have started daydreaming about my new husband. Hes lovely,

I'm wondering why you have chosen to fight for him. You have no kids with him and he has stated that he does not want to have kids with you. There is nothing keeping you tied to him. Perhaps moving on would be better in your situation?

I was in the same situation with my H shortly after marriage. He cheated, we had no kids, but I chose to stay with him because I loved him. Now, 10 years later, he has cheated again. Only this time I have far more time, and children, invested and I wish I had left him the first time. I would have saved myself, and my children, a world of pain.

In my opinion, BSs without kids should leave. Again, that's just my opinion, but based on your comment above, it appears you might feel the same.
Originally Posted by hurtagainbydavid
I was in the same situation with my H shortly after marriage. He cheated, we had no kids, but I chose to stay with him because I loved him. Now, 10 years later, he has cheated again. Only this time I have far more time, and children, invested and I wish I had left him the first time. I would have saved myself, and my children, a world of pain.

In my opinion, BSs without kids should leave. Again, that's just my opinion, but based on your comment above, it appears you might feel the same.

I accually have the same opinion, because if were not for my children, I would not hae reconciled with my W after I left her for, well. all the stupid crap she was pulling but mostly drinking.
Come to find out, after ten years of partial recovery, lots of time invested, she relapsed into drinking and just broke our hearts even more, including the children, who are still getting over it.(Note she died two years ago because of complications to her addiction issues)

I was gone as far as I was concerned way back then, had TOTALLY NEW GF in six months, but in the end, in a moment of weakness, I came back, and it was the thought of the children without thier father and changing her wacky way of dealing with the world that I needed to protect them from that was the real concrete reason.

Do some research on human relationships, there naturally minded shelf-life, and compare it to what can be expected with someone who will commit to his vows before God. I'm sure you can do better once you know better.

You CAN move on past this, but for the sake of the VOWS you took before God, I suggest making absolutly sure that you know what your doing.
"I see the brokenness - the complete and utter brokenness - of those who have sinned against me. And in the moment of my realization of their brokenness, I fully understand that I actually am somehow stronger, somehow in the position to have mercy, for they are pathetic in their sin." --- Quote from Schoolbus about forgiveness
__________________________________________

I like this, its too bad we have to be alone and feel stronger, when we could be together and stronger still. Sins against Gods desire for us to love each other as we are loved by him are a hard one for me to say we should take lightly, because He doesn't.

In the Vows of marriage, we are vowing before God and man, and to him, simultaneously. This carries deep emotional weight on right and wrong, and the value we place on each other, and on ourselves, in our conscience. Even subliminally.

Like it says here and DR H teaches, its not about "Marriage at any cost", I beleive that lines up with what God wants for us also.
You are giving your WH a chance to pull his head out from his butt, and for you both to recover, and for your marrigae to grow.

That is admirable and deserves respect. Hang in there Indie
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by Lexxxy
BE HAPPY and FLIRTY -- it will confuse the chit out of him!

LOVE me some Lexxxy girl.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 05:54 PM
Yes we have no kids, yes I will prob be better off without him and yes this is leading to some day dreams of freedom!!

Plan B is about me, knowing that I can look back and know I did everything. He will never be able to find me at some low point in the future and talk me around - I will be able to say "I lifted you from the fog, I gave you every opportunity".

I dont think he will rise to those opportunities, dont think he has it in him. His problem, not mine.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by hurtagainbydavid
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Have started daydreaming about my new husband. Hes lovely,

I'm wondering why you have chosen to fight for him. You have no kids with him and he has stated that he does not want to have kids with you. There is nothing keeping you tied to him. Perhaps moving on would be better in your situation?

I was in the same situation with my H shortly after marriage. He cheated, we had no kids, but I chose to stay with him because I loved him. Now, 10 years later, he has cheated again. Only this time I have far more time, and children, invested and I wish I had left him the first time. I would have saved myself, and my children, a world of pain.

In my opinion, BSs without kids should leave. Again, that's just my opinion, but based on your comment above, it appears you might feel the same.


Btw Im pretty sure the no kids thing is a ruse - came up in a very weird way when he was in the fog.

It was a way for him to be her babysitter with my approval. Hes always gone on and on about ids.

But children would be one of my conditions, yes.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 07:28 PM
The whole "no kids" thing came up to give him a convenient excuse to be spending wayyyy toooo much time with blackwidow and kids. It gave him a family to try on for size.

But Indie -- be really careful about this -- because it would be a huge mistake to bring children into this union. No no no. Not until it measures up to MB standards!
And that might take a year or two....

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 09:26 PM
No, I am not even in a position where I know whether I want to be with him - let alone want to have children with him.

It is a question of steps. Before embarking on recovery (which I may not even do) I would simply want an honest answer to the question of whether he wants children some day.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 09:31 PM
So earlier I texted him, in reply to the 'why would I' I said 'to spend time with the coolest person you know!' He replied 'Why would you want to have coffee with someone having an affair', and that he didnt want to have coffee with someone accusing it.
It was HIS idea we meet up!!!!! He was possibly hoping I would refuse this so he could do some more bad guy painting about me. However he has well and truly thrown his toys out of the pram now.

My attempt to reply to the last text failed - he may have blocked me from his phone or something?

Bit lost as to next step, should I email him another memory then proceed with plan B letter?

I'll let Scotty answer that one but he sounds wacked
What load of crap
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 09:59 PM
The email would go something like this.....

You asked me yesterday why I would want to have coffee with you and that surprised me. Surely you know that I like to be around you. I am deeply grateful to you for many things. The way you always stood up for me, for example. I remember your telling me someone at work had said you 'must be married to a dragon', and you told them they would have to step outside if they were going to talk about your wife in that way. Remember when P criticised me at that party? You were furious and told her straight that you weren't going to have it. You stood up for me at every turn.
When I gave L a piece of my mind for those nasty texts he sent you, I was thinking the whole time that I had to stand up for you, the way you had always stood up for me. I just want to say thanks for all that stuff. Supporting me, being there for me, making me feel safe. Being you.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 10:00 PM
Yeah its looking very grim isnt it!!!!
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 10:18 PM
Indie,

I like how your letter feeds his "admiration needs" which you stated was high for him.

Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Yeah its looking very grim isnt it!!!!


Given how early you are into this, his negative reactions are not so surprising. That is what they do after exposure.

Don't let it discourage you. Stick to your plan.

(((hugs)))
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 11:04 PM
Thanks. It did feel risky doing all this, but i feel its helping me see clearly and keep my focus on me.

I mean, I was only asking him if he wanted to spend time wih someone cool!! Nothing untrue about it. His responses are undeniably fogged and thats his side of the street to clean up. My side is looking good.

((((Hugs back))))
Posted By: NB28 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 11:20 PM
I am so glad you can see the fog babble from him and take it as that.
I just cant beleive he has the audacity to insist he isnt having an A when its so blatant he is.

keep that amazing strangth up
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 11:26 PM
I'd say that you don't worry about the no go on the invite. Maybe you could go out anyways and take a pic and send it to him.

You aren't going to enter Plan B because of something he does or says. You enter Plan b when you are ready for it. Are you ready yet?

There is a fav text of PM's. It goes something like, "I read in the paper that aliens are coming and taking all of the good-looking people on earth, I'll miss you." The reason this one is so well liked? He won't know if you mean HE is good-looking or YOU are. laugh

I'd say that you do the text, in a couple of days. Get all of your plans finished for Plan B. Figure out all of the things for yourself, and don't worry about how it will impact him(as long as it is legal).
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/11 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Yes we have no kids, yes I will prob be better off without him and yes this is leading to some day dreams of freedom!!

Plan B is about me, knowing that I can look back and know I did everything. He will never be able to find me at some low point in the future and talk me around - I will be able to say "I lifted you from the fog, I gave you every opportunity".

I dont think he will rise to those opportunities, dont think he has it in him. His problem, not mine.

Just wanted to quote me some good Plan B thinking. Great work Indie. smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/23/11 02:28 PM
Thanks everyone, just sent the text.

He sent me a reply to my 'admiring' email which is pretty much what you would expect :-

"And again I revert back to what I've sent previously. I'm either doing what you've accused me of - so why even want to speak to me. Or I'm not and since you know me well enough, you'll surely know I'm not best amused with the whole scenario.

On a seperate note I don't care what people think of me, one thing's for sure they can leave my mum and dad out of it. Question my 'class & dignity' fair enough, but not there's.

I've just been to collect my mail (I had to let myself in as you werent home), all I took was one letter & a book that needs returning to the library that was on the table - I never went thru anything else.
I'm waiting on hearing from an interview that's all. As it happened the letter was for my season ticket so I'll be still expecting a letter which hopefully will mean I'm away. Not that it should really matter to you, since I'm apparently up to all sorts."

No idea what he's talking about re his parents. Will just her if shes ok when I drop off the last few things. Is prob just desperate ploy to draw me into an argument.

Dont like him coming here to go through stuff. He's been told to stay away.

Might get legal advice about changing the locks.



Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/23/11 02:38 PM
Does anyone else find it interesting that he came here to see whether I was in, instead of just replying to the email straight away? Not sure what to make of it, but I do.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/23/11 03:04 PM
Btw, The book was one of hers that I borrowed pre-discovery and was supposed to take back for her.

I hadn't felt like it. Guess he doesnt mind being the errand boy, tho..
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/23/11 08:12 PM
Don't engage him in an argument. Let him stew and spew.

Your exposure sure was effective, good job

Now, you could change the locks, and when he discovers it, say that you lost a key and decided for your safety that you would just change the locks and since the two of you haven't been able to get together you couldn't get him one.

About him coming to get the book for OW, it was probably just an excuse(which I am sure you already figured out).

That's the beauty of MB, you have a plan and you have tonnes of people with all of these experiences and WAywards always seem to follow a pattern. It's like they all share one, very small brain.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/25/11 12:23 PM
Okay, it's been a couple of days, how are you doing? All I hear right now, are CRICKETS.

Plan B? You ready? When can you get into it?
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/25/11 12:40 PM
Yeah - you don't Plan B us, indie, you Plan B the WS! laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/25/11 01:12 PM
Hehe Ive just been out having fun thats all. My friends are legends.

Been reading the art of war this morning. When your enemy tries to provoke you into attack he is eager for you to advance.
Think Scotland is onto something with the 'stew and spew' advice. Think he's going crazy.

Sorting mortgage stuff out with my sis this morning. Statements have arrived and I dont want to open them alone. When ducks are ina row bill wise and when his stuff is gone, locks are changed etc, plan b is still the plan for me.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/25/11 01:31 PM
Indie -- just like I told you. Be nice -- it will drive him crazy.
He won't know what to make of it.
And when you go to plan b, all he will have are pleasant memories of you to dwell on.
Keep up the "pressure"....keep being flirty and sweet.
Try to spend some rime with him. You are his wife afterall!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/25/11 02:06 PM
If he saw me right now he'd flee. He is terrified of the nicey nice stuff. Thats ok though. He doesnt understand it. The plan b letter will make him think he does. Then she will go nutso at receiving her copy and i will be unreachable to either of them while in deep plan b.

Spending time with him? I think only possible if I trick him into discussing bills. Theres a snag there as I dont know whether to reveal my knowldege of the state the mortgage is in. The meeting would NOT BE HERE at the house of course. Im ambivalent on the point of seeing him. Opinions?

Am also considering sowing the seed of doubt that he is only interested in her for her money. After life insurance she is very comfortable and i am sure it is appealing to him. Should she get wind of the financial problems?

I think her faith in his financial honesty is strong though and that it wouldnt do me any favours.

The simplest plan to me is play dumb re the mortgage, play on her jealousies of me, act nice to him and let all unfold.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/25/11 02:30 PM
Oh Indie

you are such an amazing woman, hang on in there, thoughts are with you

(((Hugs))))) Indie
Originally Posted by indiegirl
If he saw me right now he'd flee. He is terrified of the nicey nice stuff. Thats ok though. He doesnt understand it. The plan b letter will make him think he does. Then she will go nutso at receiving her copy and i will be unreachable to either of them while in deep plan b.

Spending time with him? I think only possible if I trick him into discussing bills. Theres a snag there as I dont know whether to reveal my knowldege of the state the mortgage is in. The meeting would NOT BE HERE at the house of course. Im ambivalent on the point of seeing him. Opinions?

Am also considering sowing the seed of doubt that he is only interested in her for her money. After life insurance she is very comfortable and i am sure it is appealing to him. Should she get wind of the financial problems?

I think her faith in his financial honesty is strong though and that it wouldnt do me any favours.

The simplest plan to me is play dumb re the mortgage, play on her jealousies of me, act nice to him and let all unfold.

Its allmost scary how quickly you caught onto the whole human nature thing and MB way of mastering the way of the warrior, "The art of war", too. I think your Kung Foo shall be strong.

Be careful of the power of the force Indie that it doen't draw you to the dark side, although he should have been cautious about "A women scorned"

For now though yeah nicy nice will be scary because you will seem unaffected, and able to handle stuff,"even if" you are going through hell..Thats strength nobody can deny. Save the tears for privacy now he doesn't get the satisfaction.

It seems his ego has cut his own throat, you will be fine, and he might just go out squirming. Sorry for your loss but you don't deserve this treatment. God Bless
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/25/11 05:41 PM
Thanks CP! Awesome stuff there for Indie.

Indie, stay strong. Get ready for Plan B!

But do learn art of war. I think I read about this 1,000 times before I divorced Darth. But I am still hoping we can get your whs' head out of his butt.

I agree. WH's ego will cut his own throat. It does to ALL WAYWARDS in the end. Especially if he continues down this destructive path and does not return home. He will face utter ruin sooner or later if he does that. I hope for one, he does not! smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/25/11 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Be careful of the power of the force Indie that it doen't draw you to the dark side, although he should have been cautious about "A women scorned"

For now though yeah nicy nice will be scary because you will seem unaffected, and able to handle stuff,"even if" you are going through hell..Thats strength nobody can deny. Save the tears for privacy now he doesn't get the satisfaction.


"No ruler should put troops into the field merely to gratify his own spleen. No general should fight a battle out of pique".

The same thoughts re the dark side occurred to me. Revenge is tempting but there are other more direct avenues for that. I just want truth, and to extinguish all doubts that may come up in the future. If I dont get them, so what? I took a shot.

There are no tears incidentally. Never been as cool as I have been today and yesterday. Is it permanent? Dont know but when I think of him I feel he is pitiable. I can even think of them together with ease. I try to torment my imagination but I cant, it's no big deal.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/25/11 06:44 PM
Basically I want to give him the gift of honesty. To know that I put both him and myself in the best of circumstances before making the decision to file for divorce. Revenge would be to let them have each other and make those poor kids lives even worse than they have been so far.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/27/11 04:34 PM
On the verge of going into a proper plan B today. I have been sorting out some last minute bill stuff today. There are some things/info I need from him to do the rest of the bills. Scotty has told me not to tip him off that im planning to cut him out by asking him this stuff in advance.

His stuff is packed up. Hoping to drop off at his mums shortly but I need someone to give me a hand with this - sorting out who will help tonight.

The plan B letter will be with his things (including an introduction to the IM). I will post OWs copy to her same day? So she will get it in due course, after he does.

Then I get my IM to email him asking him to sort final details regarding bills.

Feeling good today.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/27/11 06:28 PM
Respect lady, respect!!

Followed your story all the way, you have been amazing and continue to be so.

Nice to have another brit along!

Make sure you plan a proper treat for yourself as you go into Plan B, whatever is a treat for you, make it so, a massage, a shopping trip, a walk in the country, do something that rewards you.

Hugs
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/27/11 06:31 PM
Get as much info as you can beforehand but don't let on that he will be getting cut off. Don't make it sound final. Also, you could write an addendum, with the Plan B letter, asking for him to send the info to your IM. Something like, "I also need some information concerning finances. Forward all answers directly to IM, thank you."

Breathe, relax. You'll be okay
Lol
My first extremely was " sortingitout" and I always thought of that British use of sorting something out and how common it was across the pond you know

My last name is British and so I always related myself that way anyways

But I have Irish dutch and German plus some American Indian also. So I just I'm a mutt but we make the best pets

Ok well you have Scotty as a close advisor and you already seem to have a solid handle on reality so I think your gonna be just fine

Hang in there. It will get easier in time
Sorry you have to though this indie
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/27/11 08:25 PM
My dad has said that my going through this has earned me "another degree"! He has also come up with WH's nickname from here on in. He wont use his name any more and refers to him as 'Softlad'. This is a very regional term around here for a confused and immature person. To think my dad's reaction was the one I was most worried about pre exposure.

He was also very concerned about plan B in the beginning, but now he is totally on board. He's had time to get to grips with the concept and he loves psychological warfare. We are very similar.

Tanam, I have lots of treats lined up - not enough hours in the day in fact. Also been very busy planning my future past couple of days.

And yes, more brits should be on here!!! If only the UK attitude of 'minding your own business' and 'adultery just happens' could be shaken up a bit more..

Scots I'm sending you an email now with some specifics, hon.
Hey Indiegirl,

You're one smart cookie. Keep up the good work. "Softlad" is pretty funny. "Hedgehog" is good too. Up to you.

BTW: Since you have no kids, I'm in the Plan FU camp.

TE
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/28/11 02:21 AM
Go Indie-girl!
Posted By: sushi Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/28/11 02:48 PM
I've been following from the beginning, too, and admire your spirit. Best of luck to you, and I'm looking forward to your updates!
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/28/11 03:09 PM
Softlad........well that tells me why you are so tough, they don't breed softgirls there!!

Yes more brits would be good, although loads of folk knew about my WH behaviour, none of them, and I mean none of them ever mentioned it to him. There really is a sense of not wanting to get involved here, shame really!

Glad you are looking out for you, make you the best you can be and make sure he knows what he has lost. (not from you, you are in Plan B!!!)

Keep posting, keep smiling, be strong.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/28/11 04:59 PM
Hang tough I girl.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/28/11 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by TryingEverything
BTW: Since you have no kids, I'm in the Plan FU camp.

TE


I see totally where your coming from. Was considering it strongly the other day. I felt very tough, very cool, very decided. But the appeal of being away from his drama, while keeping him in the dark for once, was just too strong.

Today I texted him for a password I need to sort out a bill. He was trying to avoid giving me it, saying he would sort it out in august (after giving me grief for not paying bills - waywards)

It just so happens that the password was a very romantic reference to me. It would have been set up a long time ago, so whatever, but it completely undone me. Ten minutes before I'd been as solid as a rock. This showed me as nothing else has done that if I started on plan FU I would possibly buckle. I need the time to grow strong before embarking on a divorce and I need to do from an informed position, one of strength.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/28/11 06:07 PM
Quote
I need the time to grow strong before embarking on a divorce and I need to do from an informed position, one of strength.
Absolutely the right attitude and I applaud your strength. laugh

My vote if for "softlad" hehehehehehe
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/28/11 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by Tanam
Softlad........well that tells me why you are so tough, they don't breed softgirls there!!


LOL! Just got on to this, think you are on the right lines Tanam.....
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/29/11 11:50 AM
Bad bad day. Wearing lead boots. Cant beleive the effect that password has had on me....
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/29/11 12:30 PM
(((((Indie)))))

It'll get better hun, I promise. hug
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/29/11 03:30 PM
It's the roller coaster hun, breathe, hang on to how strong you were a couple of days ago, it will come back.

every so often stuff comes along and knocks you sideways and then you get on with getting on.

Do the D when you are ready, if you choose, but Plan B is a good one and you have some strong support out there. Thinking of you.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/29/11 09:47 PM
Yeah. Been crying some this evening, not as painful as after d-day, but it was really hard just going through CDs and stuff. Saw him walking down the street to the pub as my cousin and I were driving up to his mums. When we went in his car keys were on the table, so he is living there I would say. He gave us this 'tip your fake hat' sort of wave as we drove by. So weird. I cant look at his face, but my cousin said he had a sort of 'worried smile'

Leaving the Plan B letter felt good. I put his St Christopher medallion in with it, he hasnt worn it for ages. His grandmother gave it to him and he always used to give it to me to wear when I had an exam.

What I realised today is that I am very much still in love with him. Guess it's stupid to expect that to just vanish overnight. I'm treating it as a dangerous weakness.

My mum said 'You'd miss a limp, but that doesnt mean you're better off having it'. confused But its not really like that. Packing him up, changing the locks, staying calm - it's like having to pin yourself down and cut out bits of yourself. Bits of yourself that you really like and will really miss.

I need the calm and self-focus of plan B. I will send her her copy tomorrow and then bring on plan me.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/29/11 10:51 PM
Need to see a solicitor. How does being legally separated fit in with plan B in the opinion of you vets?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/29/11 11:47 PM
Do what you need to do to legally cover your azz. If that means that you file for a legal sep0aration, so be it. Some people can't because they don't have such a thing. If you need to file for a divorce, you would just explain to your lawyer that you want to drag it out. How long do you have to be separated before you are granted a D? In some places(like where I live) you have to be separated for a certain amount of time, before you can file for a D.

Hey, I still love my WH. I don't look at it as a weakness. It's part of who I am because I am a good person, but I won't let him have an A while I sit back and take it.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/29/11 11:53 PM
I will know when I see a solicitor, but from doing a bit of research, legal separation looks good.
It does not end the marriage, but speeds up the divorce if you file for it after the sep. Not sure how long it needs to be or if its needed before a D.

Hes kind of driving me crazy with the cheery waves as I drive by, not redirecting his mail, the way he left loads of his cr@p here, offering to sort bills out for me.

Like we're buds, like im on the backburner for him. Like he hasnt broken my heart or committed adultery!!!

WAKE UP SOFTLAD - I MEAN BUSINESS!!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/29/11 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Hey, I still love my WH. I don't look at it as a weakness. It's part of who I am because I am a good person, but I won't let him have an A while I sit back and take it.


I dont mean weakness as in character flaw, I mean weakness as in it could turn into my being stupid, which then would be a character flaw.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/30/11 12:01 AM
Well, as long as you stick to the plans, then you outshine that weakness. laugh
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/30/11 01:06 AM
Forward his mail for him..... you should not have to see it.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/30/11 01:33 AM
I passed important things on the IM, and my WH would pick it up there, and then after 6 months, I would just throw it in the garbage. That's what I would do if I got mail addressed to someone whom I didn't know and didn't live with me.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/30/11 11:13 AM
Yeah will do.

Was volunteering this morning at a school, as i am considering a change of career. Ended up in a counselling type room with lots of self help books. While I was waiting for someone, started reading a book called Considering Divorce or something to that effect.

This book, written by two male IC types totally horrified me. The section on affairs said that a temporary 'growing relationship' with another person when your marriage is in trouble has been helpful to some of their clients! Apparently it HELPS THEM FIND THEMSELVES!!!

One guy even claimed he had told his OW that it was to be temporary and to help him throgh a rough patch (um, ok) He is quoted "I told her I was like a weak little kitten that needed licking and to be washed. I told her I did not know if I would still want her around when I was dry"

Have seen lots of criticism on here about various ICs but for goodness sake....
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/30/11 11:34 AM
He's just called round. Maybe he read the letter? I didnt answer though he knew I was home with my car outside. He called the house phone then he called my mobile. He must have been able to hear it ringing away in here. Then he tried his key so he knows the locks have been changed.

There is some mail for him today actually. Thinking of giving it to his cousin who lives next door. (shes been supportive) He can pick anything up from hers for a bit, until sorting out redirecting.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/30/11 06:33 PM
Don't answer the calls. Have you blocked him on FB? What about your emails? Your phone? Block what you can and if he gets through, you should NOT read or listen to anything and delete it right away. In these first few days he is going to try ANYTHING to get through to you. Don't let him. Be strong and stick to your plans.

hug

How are you today?
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/30/11 06:39 PM
Indie,
can you take a short weekend trip so you wont be around when he tries?

Vets is this a good idea? I know it would help me in that situation but Indie seem MUCH stronger than I could ever be.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/30/11 06:42 PM
Of course it would be a good idea to go away for a few days. Somewhere where he can't find you. At least some place where if he did try to find you, no one would let him communicate with you. Could you perhaps do that?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/30/11 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
Indie,
can you take a short weekend trip so you wont be around when he tries?

Vets is this a good idea? I know it would help me in that situation but Indie seem MUCH stronger than I could ever be.

I think it is a fine idea.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/30/11 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
Indie,
Indie seem MUCH stronger than I could ever be.

This is SUCH a nice thing to say. Truthfully my heart was pounding when he knocked on the door at first but I started realising how ridiculous it all was and began laughing.

Cant help taking satisfaction in it really.

Im fine thanks Scotty. He's blocked on email, work email, FB, just need to sort out phone.

I am actually going away this weekend. To the country where there is no cell reception! what a happy accident that is eh?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/01/11 09:39 PM
Really looking forward to my trip tomorrow. Heard something I didnt like though today.

My uncle bumped into softlad's dad the other day. My Uncle said "Been hearing lots of stuff about your son".
Softlads dad: "He isnt having an affair you know".

This was hard to hear as he's always been very nice to me, to the point of helping me with my career. However he is rotten to his wife, SLs mum, very disrespectful, lazy, inappropriate with other women.

Says is just 'innocent flirting' though. Since being on here ive become more convinced than ever hes a wayward too. (Softlad hates his dad and would hate to be compared to him)

I shouldnt really be surprised though. Hes also very 'holier than thou' involved with the church and stuff. Seen a lot of that on here - being holy or respectable as cover.

I never really exposed to his dad directly, just Softlads mum, who i showed the texts to while i still had the phone.

His dad wasnt home and I had to go before softlad showed up.

Feel like confronting him on this one, but am prob overreacting.

I guess he knows the real story and is just putting a desperate, wayward face on things....
Sorry to hear that indie
SLs dad could be a wayward if he is disrespectful to all women including his wife
Yeah the holier than thou can be like smoke and mirrors I agree
Hang in there but I think you found another piece of the puzzle
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/01/11 10:03 PM
When I get through all this, I may give softlads mum a VAR as a gift!!!!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/02/11 03:44 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
When I get through all this, I may give softlads mum a VAR as a gift!!!!

It would only be paying it forward, doubt she'd use it though.

Remember that being in Plan B, you need to protect yourself from even hearing anything about Softlad. You should try to minimize your thoughts about him, and if others bring him up, you should politely tell them that you don't want to hear anything about him as it would be difficult to heal being reminded about him. It isn't something that the "normal" world understands. I know my BIL always wanted to be informed about whatever his WW was doing. He still tries to get some things in now and again, thinking I would want to hear about it and not understanding when I say that I really don't.

Hang tough. You are doing GREAT
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/03/11 06:49 PM
Having rough time, went away and had a great weekend, came back to third hand threats.

Softlad told my BiL to tell my sis that he isnt happy with the go-between and wont use that email. That if I want a rough divorce ill get one(havent done anything to sugggest I do) Tht he isnt happy with my changing the locks.

My sis also put in her opinion that she doesnt blame him for not wanting to use the go-between, that im one day offering him out for coffee, next day not seeing him. I told her I dont need this.

Really furious.

I told her and to tell BiL that I wont be accepting any messages thorugh them and they can say that if they get asked to do it again. She turned down the change to mediate, she thinks I should do it. However she did agree to say what I asked her to.
Ok should we call her softsis?
Don't be discouraged
Don't use them then
Have it be your lawyer if he wants to play toughlad
You don't have to talk to him and I wouldn't give him the satisfaction of hearing, seeing, or knowing anything about you now

Stand strong it's good that your furious someday it won't effect you so strongly

Someday you will find some real support locally
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/03/11 10:22 PM
All waywards throw a hissy fit when they first enter Plan B. My own WH refused to use the IMs, and still sort of passes messages through our children.

Thing is, you don't give him a choice. You refuse to communicate with him any other way. Next time that he attempts to circumvent your IM, he hears CRICKETS. You don't even acknowledge that a message has been received. NOTHING.

I'll tell you this, most people out there find MB to be foreign to them. They don't understand it. They think that things should be the way that they have always been. MB was counter-intuitive to me, now it has become a way of life. It makes sense. I drank the "kool-aid" and I like the taste.

Be patient with the people around you and explain it to them(as much as they are willing to listen). Tell them that this program that you are following is one that was made by a psychiatrist who has saved THOUSANDS of marriages from adultery. That you have chosen this program and you would like their support in your choice.

In a short time, they will see you doing much better. They will start to respect the choices you have made. Some of them may even want to read the books or check out the site, that's what happened to me.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/03/11 10:44 PM
Yeah I am choosing to view it as a hissy fit. It just means what ive been doing is working.

Most of the people in my life are fully behind me, even people dead against the plan b letter have come around because they see how well ive been doing.

My sis is at a disadvantage, shes been so sick she so shes only been getting half the story and isnt as caught up as other people.

Because BiL is softlads friend too, theyve comein the firing line of threats and I think these threats ahve worried them

Shes feeling better and we should get an opportunity to talk next week. Just that today I got a great glimpse of how bad it would be to talk to him and get sucked into the drama.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/04/11 03:54 PM
Quote
Just that today I got a great glimpse of how bad it would be to talk to him and get sucked into the drama.

And that's one of the great benefits of Plan B. I am glad that you are seeing some benefits so quickly, it should help keep you focused on what you need to do. Keep tough. laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/04/11 10:46 PM
Have lots of things to sort out and being in Plan B will give me the strength to start this week I think. I think seeing a solicitor is step one, but seem to struggle getting an appointment/time off but that will happen shortly I think.

Because I cant do the college course I want until september 2012 Im thinking of taking advantage of the time and completing my ambition of travelling (funds are low but cruise ship work looks good). I would need to either buy him out of the house or arrange to split any rent raised with him. We wouldnt be able to sell the house any time soon and if I left it empty, he could break in or insist on living here.

Keeping his share in the house alve while renting it out would be a huge hassle as its a lot to liaise with him, plus hes said in the past he wouldnt want to rent this place out and might not agree to it.

How does dividing marital assests, like buying him out of the house, sit with Plan B? Is going abroad also in line with Plan B?

From what Ive read and understood, it is very Plan B, because you focus on yourself. But I would appreciate some feedback because I dont see how it would fit in, should he suddenly decide to agree to NC while I'm halfway across the world!?

Tips appreciated!
Ok, well seeing a solicitor/legal advice makes it easy doesnt it to put that in his/her hands? If softlad doesn't accept your buyout, then you could force him to accept you renting the house right? More advice from the solicitor but then, they could handle those details.

If you are halfway around the world living your life during plan B, and he comes to his senses and swears no contact, and most importantly, you decide you want to give it another go, so let him wait and sweat it out a bit till you get back. Again he will have no idea of your reaction, because it will just be a message through IMs.

No problems from what I can see with plan B.He can wait X # of months untill you get back while he gets the books, studies what he should be, and even pays for some good counseling from the center. You can both live with each other at his new place or yours, after you get back, and after you recover. I would not rush back into the house together at that point, I would keep it a seperate deal for awhile.

Till then imagine the husband you wanted, the one he can be, and make him jump through the hoops if he says he wants back in.

Don't be soft on softlad, he will remain squishy
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/05/11 12:22 AM
As long as all of your dealings with him are through your I'm or lawyer, I don't see how that wouldn't be in line with Plan B. Also, going on a cruise and travelling would fall into Plan B as well, as long as you aren't dating anyone else and as long as you are keeping your boundaries HIGH.

Remember, you are more suseptible to a RA(revenge affair). As long as you stay focused on yourself it is all good

You are doing good. Let's just make sure that you are able to get others to not twll you things about your WH anymore. laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/05/11 12:32 AM
Thanks CP and Scotty.

Theres no danger of going soft on softlad CP!!!

Scotty, have been thinking about my risks of an RA, but think I am just as tough on the 'enemy within' as I am on softlad and his blackwidowspider. Hope so anyway. The biggest chances of defeat lie in my going crazy for revenge or longing to go soft on him.

I will stay the course....

Have had a few vultures circling me anyway. Any which cross the line will discover what confetti made out of b0ll0cks looks like. I dont think im in danger of going all gooey over the sort of man who would be interested in a married and vulnerable woman.

Hopefully fun, happy sunshiny times are enough to keep me happy and mentally tough.

Funny you called her blackwidow spider.

Back in 1982, I was seeing a girl around the time I met my STBW to be. She was a pretty smart girl, and we were not seriuos really, because she respected that I was going to school and being seriuos was not in my plans. But we had respect for each other in many ways.

When my STBW came into the picture, the girl and I happened to be eating some homemade lasanga<sp> I made, and I offered some to STBW also, just being cordial and polite. So there was an exchange in conversation, innocent enough I thought, but my date smiled and said, "I don't know CP, seems a little fishy, I think she is weaving a web for you". (Probably because of late wifes flair for the dramatic and something she said). From there on the girl refered to her as, "Spiderwoman" and she said "Shes weaving a web!", laughing and joking.

Yeah those Damsels in Distress sure can do a job on you, just like those lost puppies girls find out there.

Hang in there Indie.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/05/11 09:08 PM
So I had a good talk with my sis and she had already digested a good part of what I had to say. She says she just wants to know what she should and shouldnt tell me - not just direct messages from him but whether she should tell me things she hears about him. I told her just hearing a little bit of his bile had flattened me for a day and a half. Shes now totally on board with plan B. So is BiL apparently. This is easy.

Finding plan B massively relaxing. I dont have to think about him, theres no way to check up on him, I know he has no way of contacting me, so him not contacting me doesnt hurt.

I know he has a high fence to jump, but theres nothing to recriminate myself for because I left an opportunity availiable to him, he just has to be worthy of taking it.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/05/11 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I know he has a high fence to jump, but theres nothing to recriminate myself for because I left an opportunity availiable to him, he just has to be worthy of taking it.

In a nutshell, there you go. True and the bottom line.

Yay for stating it!
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/05/11 11:14 PM
Exactly!

But do see the solicitor so to get good legal advice in your country. Make sure if you do choose to work on an exciting cruise ship (love cruises) that your property and income/monies saved are SAFE from the greedy hands of selfish waywards.

Again, this softlad needs to make himself one day worthy of the fabulous Indie!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/05/11 11:32 PM
Indie, I am so glad that you are feeling better. I am also glad that those around you are starting to come around. It' good to have support IRL.

You're doing GREAT. Remember that this is a marathon not a sprint, expect that there may be some down days and they may sneak up on. We will be here for you and we all understand. Stay strong you are AMAZING.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/06/11 12:32 AM
Thanks everyone. Your support keeps me happy too.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/06/11 08:38 PM
......and then comes the down day. Been wistful all day, wishing he would just man up, accept responibility and show half the love for me that I have shown for him.

Have to accept that maybe that is not in the stars for me, and that being sensible on this point will save a good deal of time and work if not.

Must repeat to self that it is not the reason for doing this

Must learn to have no expectations.

Whenever I will start to think like this I will say to myself. "Wow. He really could have had it all with me. What a shame he's stupid." Then I will think of pretty things.

I think I need to do more nice, fun stuff.

It may just be that I have run out of chocolate and pastry.
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/06/11 08:53 PM
Sweetie, no wayward alien is ever good enough for their betrayed spouse, for they are in a horrible place, spiritually speaking. Their soul is beyond ugly right now.

They are actively doing bad things, and that makes even the most attractive person ugly imho. So simply think that he is right now, in the state he is in, UNWORTHY of you. For YOU are worthy of only a good man and faithful man. A wayward man is none of those things. Like the Bible says, "A doubleminded man is unstable in all his ways."
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/06/11 08:59 PM
letting peachy wisdom sink in...............
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/06/11 09:05 PM
Indie,

Wish I knew what to say to make you feel better. You are at a really difficult point right now.

It is ok to let yourself feel the hurt and anger. It is part of the grieving process.

Time will help. I know you don't want to hear that again. That dreaded word time. But really, time is your friend.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/06/11 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by pokerface
Indie,

Wish I knew what to say to make you feel better. You are at a really difficult point right now.

It is ok to let yourself feel the hurt and anger. It is part of the grieving process.

Time will help. I know you don't want to hear that again. That dreaded word time. But really, time is your friend.


No I see, time is already doing some work. Being able to see from others time points and experience is also massive,
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/07/11 11:57 PM
Indie, I told you in my email, that I would write more on here. Jut want you to see things from more MBers than just myself.

It seems that your WH is throwing a big ol hissy fit about using an IM. This is completely NORMAL. They feel like they are losing control and they want to do whatever they can to get it back. They also test you. See your WH thinks that you are just being stubborn right now and if he can get you to break, he will have the upper hand. He doesn't know about your PLAN. He doesn't understand what it is that you are doing. This is why it is important to show him that you ARE serious and that you WON'T break.

So, again, please stick to Plan B and don't let him break you. Whenever I think about breaking Plan B(there HAVE been times), I think about all of the tough times I had in Plan A and in getting into Plan B. I think that I may as well not have gone through any of that, if I was just going to give in. Also, I think about how much worse my life could be if I didn't find MB(SHUDDER). Think about your life before MB and where you would be right now. How can you NOT stick to it? He wants to bring you back to that pre-MB person, don't let him.

This WILL get better. He WILL come around, when he realizes that he has no other choice. Please don't give him another choice.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/08/11 12:05 AM
Hi indiegirl! Please, please listen to Scotty. She is giving you critical advice and it is imperative that you follow it. Your WH is angry that he has lost control of you and is trying very hard to break your Plan B. Please be very aware and don't let him get through.

See, he is trying to test your resolve to see if you are really serious because he wants YOU to make the adjustment rather than him. When he sees that he can't get you to relax your standards, then he will start looking at HIMSELF. That is what you need to hold out for.

Scotty is doing a super job and I want to applaud her! Hang on for the ride, indiegirl, you are in good hands and this will get better!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/08/11 12:39 AM
Scotty, you are a legend.

Reading yours and Mels assessment of things really made me smile. I am in control. ME not him. He sent me a text and had me a feeling a bit wobbly for a minute there, but thats only because my defenses need tweaking. The phone is the only thing not blocked because my provider says they cant do it. So a number change must be done I think.

Made a solicitors appointment for next week. Getting financial advice same day with a bit of luck about buying him out...

I was reading articles on here earlier and saw something about an 'electric fence personality'. This really sounded like softlad to me. Hates boundaries, authority and being told what to do.

However that is not my concern.He's having a great big WAHHHmbulance moment, because Ive only left one channel of communication open - the IM. HE SHOULD COUNT HIMSELF LUCKY!!

Alas I dont forsee him ever seeing the light I have left on for him. Think he will carry on raging away into the dark.

NO way of knowing of course - and either way, I am headed for a great life, because I am tough and clear sighted...

THANKS SO MUCH everyone - for nagging me snoop, to expose, to keep calm and strong on d-day. Lifesavers, you all.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/08/11 12:51 AM
Hey lil lady, why aren't you sleeping? Hmmmm hehehehe

Get your number changed ASAP. This is why it is important to get these avenues changed before you go into Plan B. Many people start Plan B thinking, "My WS won't care. He/she already said they don't want to talk to me. Why would he/she want to contact me?" Well, THEY ALWAYS DO.

You are doing great. Get the holes plugged up and you will be even better. Now get some sleep. laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/08/11 12:55 AM
Indie out
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/08/11 09:30 PM
Hey Indie, how are you doing?

Were you able to do something FUN for YOU today?

Just checking in.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/08/11 09:57 PM
Just got in from a lovely meal at a little Italian Ive been meaning to try for ages. Just me and my mum. I was a bit down in the dumps this morning. By the afternoon I was incredibly zen - I felt all futures and plan B outcomes were possible but that they were not my responsibility. That my responsibility was to become strong and healed and in a position to pick my future - the exact one I want at the right time in the right way.

I hope this feeling lasts, its a pretty good one..
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/08/11 10:03 PM
I am glad that you have support IRL. That is GREAT.

Also, taking care of yourself is spectacular as well.

Have you thought of any hobbies that you would like to try? Do you have a bucket list? Anything you can work on getting crossed off?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/08/11 10:13 PM
My bucket list is mostly travel stuff, so the cruise job would take care of that.

Im volunteering with kids, and this week felt I was making a huge difference to two young girls' lives, so that was cool.

I forage for food in the woods too, its nice being outdoors and best when you come home with booty.I was thinking of taking a foragers course with the rangers locally as I usually only do it in autumn...

I need to look at joining an art class and a dance class.

I am happiest when doing those two things, and I need some more art around me...
Feeling "zen" that sounds good, think I will try that one on for size.

Sound great Indie, great volunteering to help others, the foraging stuff sounds cool too.

And of course you should join the classes.

Carry on, Glad to hear you are having an up day.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/08/11 11:36 PM
Great work. Get on those classes and learn learn learn. I better be hearing some zzzzzzzzz from you soon(can't help it, I'm a mom remember?)

You sound good. Keep it up.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/09/11 12:01 AM
Its not a school night!!

but I am about to drop...night all
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/09/11 12:09 AM
Nighty night. Sleep tight, and all that jazz. Do I need to read(write) you a bedtime story? wink

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/09/11 12:31 PM
Arent we all already doing that? Theres quite a few novels on here!!

Been reading Neak's thread and I am in awe of her specialness.

Been amazed at quite a few of the tender, warlike Amazons on here.

I am formulating a theory that OWomen actually dont target certain men, but go after certain amazing-type women to 'compete' with.

In spite of mine and OW long friendship I keep remembering moments when I felt uneasy about her attitude towards me.

She was there when I tried my wedding dress on the first time.
Later, in the pub she kept saying over and over how TINY my waist had looked in it, but there was almost a hysterical edge to it. She said it too often.

When she got married she had wedding plans that I thought were really nice and suited to her. However she changed them to be more similar to my style of wedding, after people had raved about mine so much.

Another bride friend of ours was constantly talking about the details of my wedding, never mentioned OWs wedding at all though. My h used to say actually that OWs face 'was like thunder' whenever this bride friend did this. I never saw it myself, think it only happened when I wasnt there.

Then bride friends fiance tells me he is disturbed because OW has told him that 'indie's wedding was [censored], wasnt it to be honest'. Indies wedding - not indie and softlads wedding. This totally angered my H, and he gave her a piece of his mind. But I was so secure and happy I thought it was funny.

I probably will remember other stuff now, but this got me thinking.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/09/11 12:41 PM
And the longer you are in Plan b, the more thinking and processing you will do. Just remember not to let yourself do it for too long, and then you need to do something that is more in line with Plan B, so you can keep your own personal recovery moving forward.

That's the thing with Plan b, all you need to do is set your sight on where you want to be, and continue moving forward. In time, you realize that you are getting closer, and you didn't even realize that.

You are growing so much, and it is good to see. Keep up the good work. laugh
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/09/11 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Been reading Neak's thread and I am in awe of her specialness.


I am formulating a theory that OWomen actually dont target certain men, but go after certain amazing-type women to 'compete' with.

In spite of mine and OW long friendship I keep remembering moments when I felt uneasy about her attitude towards me.

Indie,

I think you and I were reading the same page on Neak's thread.

There was always that competitive undertone about my OW that always confused me. That is why I never considered her to be my BEST friend...just a friend. Example, everytime I bought my daughter a new toy, OW literally the next day would buy her daughter the same toy only the super deluxe edition. She did this every single time and she did it with everything. She always had to be bigger and better. She even grew out her hair to match mine. That really annoyed me.

A lot of things will start to make sense to you now.

I haven't read the art of war thread you were speaking about. It sounds interesting.

Cheers.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/09/11 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by pokerface
[quote=indiegirl]
There was always that competitive undertone about my OW that always confused me. That is why I never considered her to be my BEST friend...just a friend. Example, everytime I bought my daughter a new toy, OW literally the next day would buy her daughter the same toy only the super deluxe edition. She did this every single time and she did it with everything. She always had to be bigger and better. She even grew out her hair to match mine. That really annoyed me.


This is becomng uncanny. Blackwidow has grown out her hair and started wearing it in the same style I wore it when softlad and I were first dating!
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/10/11 09:08 AM
What is it about Neak's thread, I read it too, one of the first ones I read all the way through and found lots of similarities with my sitch.

I think LTA's with friends are really hard, but like you Indie, I have come to see some amazing women on here and take a lot of courage from them.

Ginge wanted my life too, she followed me in so many ways, began liking te same music, affected to be interested in art (when she really is such a girly girl that she had no interest). she wanted my advice on clothes as she usually looked like a bag of dirty washing tied in the middle.

Uncanny resemblances!!

So proud of you tho Indie, you are doing brilliantly.

Poor Softlad doesn't know whats hit him!!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/10/11 11:28 AM
haha, she might be after my life and my hairdo, but she's still a tacky loser.

Softlad does not know whats hit him - I think, but here in the darkness, it's not really a concern.

Need to concentrate on Indie-land today.

Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/10/11 11:35 AM
Good I think thats the biggest thing I have learned on this journey, that by making myself well, I make myself strong and whatever comes, I am going to be fine.

The only thing I can control is myself.

Have a good day, hope the sun is shining where you are!
Posted By: myopia2000 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/10/11 12:15 PM
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/10/11 03:42 PM
That is the BEST quote ever Indie! "she might be after my life and my hairdo but she's still a tacky loser".

You win some kind of award for that. I'm sure of it!!! AWesome Indie! A gal after my own heart. <3

You're doing great. Focus on you, and keeping you financially secure while exploring new adventures (love the idea of you travelling on the ship)until you decide what it is you wish to do. Hopefully he will pull his head out of his butt soon though, b/c he's got a fabulous and fiesty wife! If not for him, then in time for another lucky guy!

Just know that he will come out of the fog, and I still believe that the message that needs to come out, or have others bring it since you're in plan B is that him having the affair with his deceased buddy's skankwife is DISHONORING his friends' memory. I'd paint it literally like them rutting on top of the grave of his friend. What a lovely mental image that is. I'm all about having the affair painted to be as ugly as it can possibly be. Maybe mention that lovely idea to IM, but stay dark.

One day he will wake up and realize that. He is not doing his friend a favor. He is not being a good guy. And she will wake up and realize she's a predatory skank too. Trust me, when there are lies and deceit, they don't make for much of any type of a foundation for any type of relationship at all. So affairs are doomed.

Look at it like this Indie, you will have a great life no matter what (this is what I said to myself all the time). Because God loves you, you honor your marriage and friends and family. And He will give you the beautiful future you deserve and we don't know how things will go yet. But trust! Work this plan and trust. Either the dunderhead ws will wake up, get his crap together and commit to a true recovery and go nc, or he doesn't. And if he doesn't he WILL regret it, and you will meanwhile NOT regret any of the hard work you did and somebody possibly better will come your way in time.

It is a win/win situation for those who take the higher road. Always is. I'm living proof. Most mathematical odds say that a woman over 35 finding love again is about the same odds as say, me getting eaten by a great white shark. But it happened! (not the shark mind you, he he!) I met my now dh at 38. Remarried at 41. I had to walk thru the fire so God could help shape me into a better person first. Hugs to you! You're doing great!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/10/11 04:49 PM
Peachy, I love you, cant help it.

As to driving home how he dishonours DF's memory, I think people will have said this, but because im staying dark, and have asked people not to mention him to me not sure.

DF doesnt have a grave by the way, he was cremated. Apparently they had talked about how they wanted funeral arrangments when they sorted life insurance. They wanted to both be cremated and have their ashes scattered together, by the kids. This was assuming they would be grown up by then.

She still has his ashes, had a very special sealed and decorated box made, she used to say that she took it to bed with her. She also started wearing his wedding ring around her neck on a chain. It wasnt always visible, though so I dont know if she kept it up.

I have wondered about this; have they had sex in her house, where DFs ashes are? Did she take off the wedding ring? I dont think your image of them having sex on his grave is too far off the mark, peaches.

I have a lot to forgive, if you really start looking into it.

They used their grief for my beloved friend as cover, then when that started to wear thin, they used my desire for children to keep me in line.

No wonder it's war!

I do think an amazing man is waiting for me. Either he is in a dark chrysallis and will break free of his alien host - or he just hasnt met me yet.

Will be fun finding out.
Yeah, Peachy rocks.

You should put that line somewhere Indie. Is there a thread for "best comebacks by a BS"?

Your gonna be fine, hang in there
Originally Posted by indiegirl
..I am formulating a theory that OWomen actually dont target certain men, but go after certain amazing-type women to 'compete' with. ..

Ok this is a gurlz thread lol, but I can't help but make the comment. I have allways said that women dress for other women a lot of the time, because of the competion really. It remeinds me of something an old guy said about his teenage daughter, that all the makeup was "War paint" Lol.

Not that it all a bad thing...(I can just see Pep chiming in with,"So what is your point?")
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/11/11 06:10 PM
Haha - have put the 'tacky loser' line in my sig!


Long post coming up.

Ok today was rough, but feel alright now. Lots of processing that I just couldnt get away from. One thing I keep coming back to is there was a time when I was on the brink of my own EA.

We'd been married about a year. My h was worried about losing his job, I wanst earning and he was very distant. My efforts to talk to him only seemed to worry him more, so i made a very naive decision to just put 'my feelings in the freezer' and wait for him to get over his worry. Very stupid.

At the time I was on a course that involved spending all day every day with the same group of people. I became very close to them, and felt they were important to me, although funnily enough I am no longer in contact with any of them!

One in particlar seemed to admire me a great deal, though nothing inappropriate was ever said or done. It was mostly 'looking' if that makes sense. The flattery was overpowering, but it didnt make me happy at all. It made very anxious and worried.

I knew that I wouldnt find him attractive if I was single. I knew it was only a reflection of problems at home. I knew it was shallow. But knowing these things seemed to make no difference to the pull I felt. It was horrible, like a rip tide that I was ashamed to call for help with.

I felt if I didn't unburden myself soon, I would go mad. I actually think if this peson had been a bit more overt or predatory, I would have spoken to him about it. That would have led to a discussion about feelings - and bang - full blown EA.

In my case, luckily he was actually very careful not to overstep any bounds. I dont credit him with any nobility on this point though. I think he was a bit immature, wanted to have a no-pressure crush and selfishly enjoyed my reactions.

This left me talking to my sis, but this didnt help.

I ended up being forced into the only option left - talking to my H as Dr Harley recommends in his policy of radical honesty. (though this was long before ever hearing of it) He was angry, sure, but the months and years that followed were better than any of our earliest courtship days, it made us very close.

My problem is this. I know the fear of feeling pulled out of your control. I know that it must have been so much worse for him, while he felt he 'had' to comfort a widow who was calling on him so much.

My other problem though is that it happened at a time when I was giving him all my love and support. I had nothing to do with him pulling away, even if I wasnt persistent enough.

The last problem is I showed a great example of honesty, and he never paid me back when it was his turn.

On my side of the street, though, I saw first hand how out of control feelings can get when you live independent lives, and still never changed it.

Sorry for venting, but I do think this is an important piece of the puzzle
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/11/11 09:16 PM
Hi Indie,

OK so that says you are and always have been someone with one of those moral compasses!

He is a stupid man at the moment, he is so far up the nile. I don't think you need to beat yourself up for a fleeting glimpse of a different world. You made a choice and were honest.

In my world we call that

Modelling behaviour

you show them how to behave.

Like a parent, as a social worker I used to model how to manage tantrums with parents, what do they say .....see one ,,,do one....teach one.

Your behaviour has already modelled to him how good people behave.

Over to him!

(I love this little Brit corner and the humour that comes off the page!!) Love the tacky loser sig!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/11/11 09:51 PM
Zen feeling went out with the tide. Been sobbing for a solid hour. Even asked god to help me at one point. Though I've been agnostic for years. The pain is unbelievable.

No particular thing set me off.

You've all been through this. Worse, some of you. False recoveries, multiple APs, OW pregnancies....

Im in awe. I dont know how you live through this never mind that.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/11/11 10:01 PM
Ok so hes started using the IM, so I should be pysched. Its hard though when I have a wayward alien instead of the husband who loves me. Feeling really sorry for myself!
Posted By: Seraph Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/11/11 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Ok so hes started using the IM, so I should be pysched. Its hard though when I have a wayward alien instead of the husband who loves me. Feeling really sorry for myself!


I know you've read my thread, so let me just say - boy do I feel you on this one! I just want my H back - not this weird fog person.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/11/11 11:14 PM
((((((Seraph))))))

Go get 'em
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/12/11 12:04 AM
Indie, you are one strong woman. I know you have hinted at what you do for a living because you "work persona " is what you have been using but let's just say I want to be on your good side :-)
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/12/11 12:38 AM
Indie, there are going to be times when your thoughts will turn to your WH. This is a LONGGGGGGGG process. And, unfortunately, you can't skip any of the steps. It's what we do after we experience the pain, and anger that matters. So, other than stay up late(you must be a night owl) what are you gonna do for yourself to heal? laugh

Take care of yourself. You're doing GREAT.
Moral compass indeed Indie

Originally Posted by indiegirl
..Ok today was rough, but feel alright now. Lots of processing that I just couldnt get away from. One thing I keep coming back to is there was a time when I was on the brink of my own EA.

We'd been married about a year. My h was worried about losing his job, I wanst earning and he was very distant. My efforts to talk to him only seemed to worry him more, so i made a very naive decision to just put 'my feelings in the freezer' and wait for him to get over his worry. Very stupid.

At the time I was on a course that involved spending all day every day with the same group of people. I became very close to them, and felt they were important to me, although funnily enough I am no longer in contact with any of them!

One in particlar seemed to admire me a great deal, though nothing inappropriate was ever said or done. It was mostly 'looking' if that makes sense. The flattery was overpowering, but it didnt make me happy at all. It made very anxious and worried.

I knew that I wouldnt find him attractive if I was single. I knew it was only a reflection of problems at home. I knew it was shallow. But knowing these things seemed to make no difference to the pull I felt. It was horrible, like a rip tide that I was ashamed to call for help with.

I felt if I didn't unburden myself soon, I would go mad. I actually think if this peson had been a bit more overt or predatory, I would have spoken to him about it. That would have led to a discussion about feelings - and bang - full blown EA.

In my case, luckily he was actually very careful not to overstep any bounds. I dont credit him with any nobility on this point though. I think he was a bit immature, wanted to have a no-pressure crush and selfishly enjoyed my reactions.

This left me talking to my sis, but this didnt help.

I ended up being forced into the only option left - talking to my H as Dr Harley recommends in his policy of radical honesty. (though this was long before ever hearing of it)

I had a time, back when I was 20, when a lot of women use to hit on me in the factory I was a supervisor in.

I had just returned from out of state, my W was pregnant by someone else, and I was still reeling emotionally. I thought in my juvenile mind, that if I ever had an excuse to stray, this was it. I had never done that sort of thing, because I knew what it would bring, and respected marrige too much, and thought it would crush my W. But now, feeling lower than snail poop, and being surrounded by people who did cheat, I thought maybe it might be a good idea. Maybe thats what I needed to stop feeling so bad.

But I could not bring myself to do it, and I thought there was something wrong with me. Something very important and deep was lost, and I wanted to do anything to fix it. (This was in the late 70s). So I went to a therapist, to discuss it, because I was so damaged I thought. He heard my problem, and laughed,..(So what you are having a problem with is that you have morals?"

Lets jump to 1999, when my second marriage was at a breaking point. I was in my 40s, and I had allways been an attractive guy, gregarious and outgoing, and a very young but interestting co-worker female was flirting way to much with me. I because very attached and infatuated with her, and it was obvious she liked me also. This happened during the course of her allready giving me a ride home at night, so by that time, it was at a breaking point.

On the way home one night we dissused our attraction to each other. It kinda blurted out, and we imediatly agreed, if anything happened it would have been the lowest crappy thing we could do to one another, and we respected each other more than that. I was in a full blown EA, although the only need fufilled was admiration and respect. Because I was in a bad place, and we had become trusted friends. I could probably be her friend today, but I think she probably married her DSs daddy, (One of the things we talked about, as in why didn't he), and besides that, I was way to old to give her what she deserved, and there was something there and allways would be.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
..My problem is this. I know the fear of feeling pulled out of your control. I know that it must have been so much worse for him, while he felt he 'had' to comfort a widow who was calling on him so much.

My other problem though is that it happened at a time when I was giving him all my love and support. I had nothing to do with him pulling away, even if I wasnt persistent enough.

The last problem is I showed a great example of honesty, and he never paid me back when it was his turn.

On my side of the street, though, I saw first hand how out of control feelings can get when you live independent lives, and still never changed it.

Sorry for venting, but I do think this is an important piece of the puzzle

See people CAN remain under control and in reality, and because I have allways been brutally and radically honest, I allways conveyed my feelings to my wives,even when they were not good to hear, because they need to hear them, to help me also.

Like you said Indie, you opened up to your soul-mate, to avoid what you knew was wrong. Yes he did not do that with you, and yes, that IS an important part of the puzzle.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/12/11 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
Indie, you are one strong woman. I know you have hinted at what you do for a living because you "work persona " is what you have been using but let's just say I want to be on your good side :-)


hhaha. it is best, to be honest!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/12/11 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Indie, there are going to be times when your thoughts will turn to your WH. This is a LONGGGGGGGG process. And, unfortunately, you can't skip any of the steps. It's what we do after we experience the pain, and anger that matters. So, other than stay up late(you must be a night owl) what are you gonna do for yourself to heal? laugh

Take care of yourself. You're doing GREAT.


Thanks. I need to sleep more actually. Being quite naughty. think I still hate sleeping alone (though I should be used to it by now)
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/12/11 06:10 AM
CP youre totally right - it all comes down to that. Making mistakes is one thing, a refusal to face up to them and call them by their right names is the worst.

If he had just had that in him he could have stopped much sooner.

If I ever do consider recovery this is where my bar needs to be set highest.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/12/11 07:25 AM
Hang on in there, this too will pass hun. It will kinda hit you like a wave every so often, you will learn to recognise it and will find your own ways to deal with it.

For me, I used meditation, found things to say thank you for and also tried to take myself out of it and ask 'what am I learning from this?'

Sometimes that was very hard and would yell while driving (alone or it worries the passengers!) 'what the f**k am I supposed to learn from this!"

Yes it's tough. it's tough whichever road you take, divorce or reconciliation, but whatever happened.....for me I came out of it as a stronger and better person.

Hugs hun, thinkin of you today.


Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/12/11 08:13 PM
Thanks Tanam, I had time to catch a quick glimpse of your 'thoughts' this morning. Helped me through my day so thanks lovely.

Feeling better. Zen is in again.

Got my copy of SAA in the post today - knowledge is power!!

Softlad is using the IM which is tops.

I am also going to be in bed within the hour. I looked ten years older this morning because of my night owl shennanigans. NOT acceptable.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/11 01:53 PM
So my Art of War tells me I should have spies in the enemy's camp

Course I cant do that for real , because Im dark Plan B, and will not hear any tales of him.

So I ask the former waywards this, if they don't mind: What was it like for you when you were being Plan B'd?

If someone was an Ow/OM who received a copy Plan B letter, that would be good to hear about too, but thinking it is rare to hear from them on here.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/11 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So my Art of War tells me I should have spies in the enemy's camp

Indie,

You DO have spies in the enemy's camp. Your great exposure took care of that. Don't worry...they and the karma bus will take care of OW for you.

Focus on you. Laughter is great medicine. Do you have any really funny friends?

Hugs.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/11 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So my Art of War tells me I should have spies in the enemy's camp

Indie,

You DO have spies in the enemy's camp. Your great exposure took care of that. Don't worry...they and the karma bus will take care of OW for you.

Focus on you. Laughter is great medicine. Do you have any really funny friends?

Hugs.


Oh yeah, I guess I do have spies. Overlooking the totally obvious.

Thanks for the hugs

I have been with friends tonight, laughed a lot. Regardless though Im having a bad couple of days. Terrible insomnia which I have never suffered with before. The girl who could sleep through a brass band in her bedroom is now being woken up by a sadness.

I miss him. I dont even know what it is I do miss, but I miss him.

Read SAA yesterday today and my mind is having all sorts of little insights, as a result. I like insights, dont think the insights are linked to the sadness. I think the sadness is totally its own creature.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/11 11:05 PM
Quote
Read SAA yesterday today and my mind is having all sorts of little insights, as a result. I like insights, dont think the insights are linked to the sadness. I think the sadness is totally its own creature.

I think so too.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/11 11:10 PM
Thanks Pep
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/11 07:24 PM
Okay so this depression is killing me and thats just not going to work for me.

I know I have to process feelings of grief, but this is too debilitating.

Tanam's tip on meditation is pretty cool, I like to medidate.

Looking into antidepressants, but the side effects seemed all a bit crazy

i read the herbal supplement St Johns wort is good for mild depression, thinking of trying that.

Running is supposed to release endorphins. I havent done any normal exercise since DDay, so i may run, even though its not my thing. I might try swimming too.

What helped everyone else? If I can put the real bad 'on the rocks' feeling back in the box I can get on better with all my 'me' plans.

Starting to feel a pull towards places where I might run into him. This is natural but dangerous and I'm not willing to indulge myself on that point.

Focusing on me. That is my job now.
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/11 07:49 PM
Google 5-HTP and tyrosine supplements. They helped me get off the effexor without the side effects and withdrawal.

Start on a low dose because to high of a dose will make you feel like you are coming down with the flu. Each person has a differnt requirement depending on your diet so no 2 people are the same.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/11 08:02 PM
Thats sounds a bit heavy duty for me LD, I dont even take aspirin or paracetamol! Plus UK GPs in the sort of area I live in are totally rubbish, I wouldnt trust them to prescribe cough medicine. I will look into, though. Research is my bag.
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/11 08:17 PM
It is at the health food store here with the vitamins. I found them because I didn't want to take the AD's and getting off them are NOT fun. They tell you the side effects but don't bother to tell you about the withdrawl systems.

I take a low dose every other day now. All it does is provides your body with the "fuel" to create serotonin and dopamine.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/11 08:19 PM
Oh Indie,

you are amazing, I don't think you have any idea how amazing! Your posts on other threads are Amazonian.

I know that feeling, I would put money on you working in front line public services!! If I am right you have learned the ability to focus on the job in hand, the other stuff you can put away!

You need to look after the hurt side of you, acknowledge the hurt indie and give her some love. Instead of feeling bad about feeling sad, accept it and help out.

Give yourself some time to care for yourself. Why run if running isn't your thing, do something you enjoy.

I started riding again after years of wishing I had. You have no ideas the adventures that has taken me on.

In doing that I made new friends away from an old circle.

I tried St Johns Wort, it did help a bit on the really down days, but the meditation did more. I was always interested in alternative therapies, so I have explored some of them, I read Deepak Chopra, wise man.

And I talked, I talked and talked, I found a counsellor who made me listen to myself and validated me. She enabled me to change. I had a friend who also allowed me to talk without making me make decisions, just let me feel for a bit, and work stuff out.

Mmmmm bit deep!!

I guess what I am trying to say is the I learned to like me again. The damage done can be horrid when the betrayal is by 2 people you thought cared about you.

Thinkin of you





Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/11 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
It is at the health food store here with the vitamins. I found them because I didn't want to take the AD's and getting off them are NOT fun. They tell you the side effects but don't bother to tell you about the withdrawl systems.

I take a low dose every other day now. All it does is provides your body with the "fuel" to create serotonin and dopamine.

Cool. will get going with that research.
Posted By: Seraph Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/11 08:44 PM
Indie - I'm curious to see what you find out!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/11 08:58 PM
I googled 5-HTP and tyrosine , sounds pretty good except most sites said its only sold over counter in Canada and US. Will look in the health food stores here though, you never know

Some customer reviews said they were good for people who had had no luck with St J Wort, but said to try that one first...

I actually have some SJW in the house, I was going to use some to treat PMT, but found out it stops your contraception from working before taking any. Guess I dont have to worry about that now!
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/11 09:12 PM
St John's Wort works great for me.

Some common OTC drugs like Benadryl can act as a mood depressant in some people (not to mention in times of intense stress gives me off the wall, insane nightmares!).

Exercise is good, too.

Everyone says time, but I don't think time in itself will cure anything. Time, a choice to find something positive everyday, a schedule of meals, forcing yourself to go out and do some activites, but still allowing yourself down time to heal, that seems to help.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/11 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Tanam
Oh Indie,

you are amazing, I don't think you have any idea how amazing! Your posts on other threads are Amazonian.

I know that feeling, I would put money on you working in front line public services!! If I am right you have learned the ability to focus on the job in hand, the other stuff you can put away!

You need to look after the hurt side of you, acknowledge the hurt indie and give her some love. Instead of feeling bad about feeling sad, accept it and help out.

Give yourself some time to care for yourself. Why run if running isn't your thing, do something you enjoy.

I started riding again after years of wishing I had. You have no ideas the adventures that has taken me on.

In doing that I made new friends away from an old circle.

I tried St Johns Wort, it did help a bit on the really down days, but the meditation did more. I was always interested in alternative therapies, so I have explored some of them, I read Deepak Chopra, wise man.

And I talked, I talked and talked, I found a counsellor who made me listen to myself and validated me. She enabled me to change. I had a friend who also allowed me to talk without making me make decisions, just let me feel for a bit, and work stuff out.

Mmmmm bit deep!!

I guess what I am trying to say is the I learned to like me again. The damage done can be horrid when the betrayal is by 2 people you thought cared about you.

Thinkin of you


Yeah, just so Tanam. I have to focus on the job in hand. The job I have right now is to focus on me. If my thoughts are being dragged back to him every minute, then I cant do that, so I have to think outside the box for the solution to that one.

Im not going to sit around going 'poor me' 'its out of my control' 'I cant help it' Thats what waywards do to avoid taking any action. Acknowledging the hurt and talking it out with friends is all working very well for me. Think it meets my need for affection.

Your post just met my need for admiration!!! LOL who needs a softlad eh?

So like I said talking is great but i need to put some 'tiger in my tank' (an old Esso fuel advert for non brits) as well...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/11 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulNC
St John's Wort works great for me.

Some common OTC drugs like Benadryl can act as a mood depressant in some people (not to mention in times of intense stress gives me off the wall, insane nightmares!).

Exercise is good, too.

Everyone says time, but I don't think time in itself will cure anything. Time, a choice to find something positive everyday, a schedule of meals, forcing yourself to go out and do some activites, but still allowing yourself down time to heal, that seems to help.


Yup this makes a tonne of sense to me...
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/15/11 02:03 AM
I am thinking back to when I was going through this all(boy it seems like a lifetime ago).

I remember I had to laugh. I watched funny things, but NOTHING involving adultery. I still can't read or watch anything that has adultery too much in your face(you'd be surprised how often sitcoms, etc have things about affairs in them). I read funny things. Jokes, Sleep Talking Man blog(you should check that out, it's where my STM quotes on FB come from). I also had a friend who I could talk to, who didn't judge, and just listened. It was very important to me.

There were so many other things I had to do to get through, but laughter was the best medicine. I started boxing training too. It helps get out frustration physically.

You are doing great and your posts on other people's threads is BANG ON. GREAT JOB.

Remember, baby steps. And every night, when you don't call/text/email or go anywhere you can see him, congratulate yourself. For now, THAT is your main objective.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/15/11 12:48 PM
Last night was really craving the sound of his voice. Unfortunately there's no way to block stuff in my brain, such as that I know his phone number off by heart. Nothing except willpower! Which I have in spades, unlike SOME people.

Took some St J Wort last night. feel more level today after venting on here.

I do have a lot to be proud of myself for. Reading the Wayward Fog disassembled and decoded thread made me laugh my socks off.

Laughter really does help!
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/15/11 01:12 PM
Laughter is major!!

I read that thread too last night, with WH sitting opposite me, was so hard not to laugh out loud. He really isn't yet in a place where he could see the funny, but I shall save it and maybe one day!!

You are still amazing (see I will fill your admiration needs in spades if you like!) you have fought like a tiger, implemented things and pushed your WH to do some serious thinking. I would put money on him really wanting to hear your voice too.

Hang on in there, have you got some old video of you two, that might give you your fix, but also might just set you on a downward turn too.

Get out in the sun, enjoy!!

Thinkin of you hun
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/15/11 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Nothing except willpower! Which I have in spades, unlike SOME people.

rotflmao



Quote
Reading the Wayward Fog disassembled and decoded thread made me laugh my socks off.

Laughter really does help!

kiss
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/16/11 08:56 PM
Had been planning to go out with friends Friday night and was really looking forward to it. I had a rough few workdays though, then it rained buckets and the tidal wave of sadness knocked me flat again, so I didnt go.

Ive also been pretty agressive with people too. Though when people do nice things for me, like letting me past them in a queue, Im absurdly touched.

Feel prety good today though. However my tenth wedding anniversary is just two weeks away and I am dreading it. He had said we should go away somewhere nice for it some months ago. Then he refused to discuss it as it got nearer. I don't think I should be here when it rolls around.
Posted By: Seraph Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/16/11 09:06 PM
You should get your closest friends and go someplace nice. Cry when you need to, and have fun when you can. You need to do nice things for you. ((hug))
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/16/11 09:10 PM
its on a weds and too short notice for most people. I can go somewhere with my mum though, have to look into it...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/16/11 11:03 PM
Just seen a FB message from blackwidow's FiL, who is also grandad to what must be two very confused little kids right now.

(Is uncle softlad our daddy now? - you get the picture)

He's not gone into any detail, just said he hopes I am well, says its 'been four weeks since your email' then given me their phone number, wants me to call them.

I must admit I am quailing a bit at the thought of telling all this ugly stuff to two parents grieving for their son.

I also don't know if s'lad and his skank have managed to spin me as the jealous crazy wife. I have proof to show them though

I know her MiL and she have never got on. MiL hates blackwidow's guts, to be frank.

But when a woman controls your access to your grandkids, you might not have the luxury of giving her a piece of your mind kwim?

However the sword wielding part of me is thinking I CANNOT wait to fill them in on whats been happening in that lovely house, which their son's life insurance money paid for. Which is supposed to be the sacred, unviolated home of two grieving kids.

They had serious run-ins with blackwidow since DF's death to do with everything from funeral arrangements to access to the kids. (The versions I was told painted the in laws as villains, but I have sort of lost faith in their versions of stories)

Their 'interference' has sort of led softlad to consider them sworn enemies. He would go totally nuclear if I talked to them...
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/16/11 11:22 PM
Indie,

Me personally, I would call and thank them for their support. That is what you requested from ppl in your exposure letter.

Explain that you have left the door open for the M, but have moved on to your own personal recovery because softlad will not meet your conditions.

No need to drive a knife into their hearts. They suffered enough.

It is good to have so many ppl on your side Indie.
Sorry if you are having a down day
I am sure it will pass soon

Yes and use that info to enlighten the mans parents
It's the adult and responsible thing to do

Love that you have moved onto abbreviating softlad

Moving forward awesome
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/17/11 12:12 AM
I would say that you should tell them. They have a right to know who is going to be exposed to their grandchildren and the kind of morals that are being taught. What they choose, or choose not to do is their own business.

I think that you should definitely get out and do something on your anni. Last year, my first anni without WH, I went to a show at the casino with a few girlfriends. It was great, kept my mind off of it. I did have almost a year of Plan b under my belt at that time, but I still think it did me good not to be sitting around thinking about the day all alone.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/17/11 12:19 AM
Yeah I do need to get out and do something on the anni.

As for DFs parents they have had the outline facts exposed to them already as part of initial exposure, they must either want details or to offer their support.

I'll play it tactfully by ear. Looking forward to it in a strange way. Its only right they know whats happening with the kids, they must be wanting to know more. I would.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/17/11 12:35 AM
I wanted to let you in on something, that isn't quite a secret. When you hear ANYTHING about your WH, or OW, you will be sent into a tailspin. I am afraid that this is what may have happened to you as of late.

Indirect contact(third hand info) is easier to recover from than direct contact, so keep that in mind.

Stay the course, and you will find that you are able to recover a bit more quickly, and refocus on what you need to accomplish.

You're doing GREAT, you don't even know it. Stick with it, and you will see vast improvements. Stick to it. hug
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/17/11 01:23 AM
I am doing great beause of all the great support from you all. Now I am going to bed before Scotty tells me to. (My mum is v impressed with you Scot !!!!)
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/17/11 01:39 AM
I was going to be a bit soft on you today, since it is a Saturday night, and you can sleep in tomorrow. I know how sometimes things happen, and your mind races, and you just can't sleep. I also know how getting into a good book can keep you up until wee hours of the morning(guilty as charged).

Thank you to Indie's mom(still working on accepting compliments), she raised a good egg. wink
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/17/11 02:07 AM
Wishing Indie zzzz.

smile

T/j: Scotty, you are awesome, girl! You'll see me here a little, but I've "been" here for 3+ years and you rock, lil' lady.

Morning, Indie (and, you should be in bed by now so reading in the morning).

Carry on ladies...caring from afar.


Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/17/11 11:01 AM
Iam reading this morning,thanks Surfer! getting some me time before calling DF's parents this afternoon....
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/17/11 05:22 PM
Spoke to DFs dad on the phone. He says his wife is keen to see me face to face. She has stepped out to see a neighbour, so I said, well have her call me when she comes in, and we'll set something up. I said I was free to come round this evening.

It sounds driven by the wife, rather than him. She has never liked her DiL and seems very eager to get the goods on her at last. She will ask for evidence, I can let her have it and it will cause one heck of a row for OW. I see no problem with that run of events tbh.

I think I need to be careful to ask them not to reveal any recent news or updates to me. Then I need to be careful to stick to only verifiable facts and encourage them to do the same. Think I need to keep it short and neat.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/17/11 10:21 PM
Went to see DFs parents. It went very well. They told me a lot of eye opening stuff about their DiL but as that's not what I went there for, I've put that aside. They told me I have their support which was nice. (I knew them way back, before DF got togehter with his wife) Then they told me they feel 'less alone' after receiving the message I sent on D Day because she had been gaslighting them. I had been really worried about that, because they got such an upsetting message on their late son's birthday.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/17/11 10:29 PM
Glad that it went well. Also glad that you have some new supporters. That should help you be able to continue to stick to your guns.
Good news indie
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/18/11 07:36 PM
Still waiting for the dawn of the day when it is all about me, rahter than all about me thinking about them!

Im off the rocks, pain-wise, but all day been thinking about the revelations of last night,

She is a lot more scheming than I ever knew. Softlad was on to her when she was married to his friend, and causing his friend pain. I didnt listen to him as I should have.

How can he even think he loves her now? Is he just as scheming as she is and after her money or whatever? Is this why he could see through her?

I guess the litmus test of Plan B will reveal all.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/19/11 12:25 AM
Do drugs harm people? Are they bad for people? Why do addicts smoke a crack pipe then? Answer is plain as day, because it makes them feel good, TEMPORARILY. Unless and until the cons outweigh the pros, IOW, until they hit rock bottom, they will continue to do what is easy and what makes them feel "good." TURDS

Hang tough, you're doing GREAT.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/20/11 11:28 AM
Had long talk with DFs mum on the phone last night as she called me. It was great in some ways but too much in others. The poor woman has been gaslighted and pushed out by her DiL for years. Her opinion was that blackwidow picks a target to blame everything on and focuses all her attention on making that person feel alienated from everyone else.

She said that now I am her target, she is more popular with blackwidow than she ever has been in the past!

She mentioned however that blackie has arranged a babysitter for Saturday becase she 'had plans'. Great. Now on Saturday, when I have to work, all I will be thinking of is what the two of them might be up to on saturday.

I dont think I can talk to, or be around, blackwidow or softlad type people. I am good friends with sl's mum for example, but she wouldnt be able to stop mentioning him or her.

One thing Df's parents have said to me is that blackw keeps the people in her life segregated from each other - she doesnt wnat them to compare notes about the things she tells them.

This is certainly true. She never introduced me to her female work friends, and if I spoke to them at parties, she would intervene,

They also hinted that she had skeletons in her closet that would 'finish her' if they ever came out.

Now I cant help thinking about how many people will be comparing notes - and her version of her relationship with softlad - and just how unpleasant things will be.

It keeps my mind in the wrong place.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/20/11 12:29 PM
It is so good that you recognize that even hearing things about Black W doesn't help you. Now, I would say that you did your duty to DF and now you should avoid talking to his parents. Their information will keep you in the drama and it isn't worth it.

And OW, she sound like any other OW. She's NOT special. And even worse she wants to try to be YOU but she can NEVER come close.

You know something. Sometimes, I feel a little sorry for the OWs. They have little self respect and obviously some MAJOR self esteem problems. I pity them a bit too.

So, what are you going to do for yourself today to heal from this? Think of something super special that can keep your focus OFF of your sitch.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/20/11 05:42 PM
Super special. That is a tough assignment. I have a horrendous few work days coming up, (its been a month, work are now no longer sympathetic and I have a really tough job) I will be working until late tomorrow, then a tough day on friday, working through the weekend and im in monday too. Tues, my day off is when i have an appointment with a solicitor - and seeing that they brushed off my appointment today (sigh) im not expecting much from it. Apparently I needed to bring some paperwork in but they didnt tell me that. I think I need to find a firm thats GOOD.

I am clean out of ideas for treats. I just want to curl up and do nothing. I have an elastic band on the wrist, which I snap when I think of him. It's surprisingly rare. I think of me and of my recovery, I notice the sad, kicked feeling in my stomach, but think only of him as a person and about memories very sporadically.

Thinking of doing your 'loonie jar' idea, Scotty. Setting up plans to join an art class from next weekend and making plans to go out with mum an sis on the tenth w anniversary in two weeks.

I would like to quit my job as Ive gotten all I can out of it, its not challenging, it drains me a lot right now, too. But until I can see a solicitor/buy him out the house/get a renter in I need the salary.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/20/11 05:46 PM
Any UK people have advice about separation and seeing a solicitor? The ones I have called up only want to know if im eligible for legal aid - how would i know?!

Maybe I should just offer to buy him out the house through my IM? Wondering really what I need a solicitor for if im not ready for plan D yet......
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/20/11 10:11 PM
May I ask,(I suppose I already am) why do you feel the need to buy him out right now? Not that I think it is the wrong move, I am just wondering what your thoughts are right now.

Things that you could do for yourself could be as simple as reading a book you enjoy, or watching a movie, just stay CLEAR of anything that has to do with adultery. You will see it in a lot of shows and books, but don't let it affect you, you will get stronger soon.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/20/11 10:36 PM
I know - there is an old UK comedy (For the brits, its Goodnight Sweetheart) which is totally based on adultery and I cant believe it never sickened me before. I just thought it wasnt any good and a bit weird.

Buying him out is based on the need to get away and quit my job. Even if I dont do the cruise ships for a while, I would like to use the time constructively to get some experience working with children, as I want to change careers. This would be very low pay at first and I wouldnt be able to support the bills here alone. I need to get a renter in here to do that as we would have no luck selling the house in the current market. I would prob move in with my parents for a while, then do cruise ships.

If he doesnt want me to buy him out I could put a renter in and split the rent proceeds with him. This would mean dealing with him more than i care too though. Also we have failed(or rather he has) to pay the mortgage off very effectively, so the rental income would give that a boost and put me in a better position financially.

If he were to come back, I think we would need a whole fresh new start anyway - different house at very least - possibly different country.

I suppose I also do feel his reliance on this house as his bckup and base, where I was kept because of his 'indie should stay at home and wait for me syndrome' should be shaken loose too. But its for the practical reasons above, really.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/20/11 11:50 PM
These are some very well thought out answers.

I would say that you should figure out what it is that YOU want to do with the house, and then let the IM send him a message about it. You should try ot use the IM as little as possible as it will still keep you stuck, even if your IM is good wink

Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/21/11 12:40 AM
I know in the US there are agencies that will handle the management part of renting your house for a small fee. Just have them send the proceeds to bothof you so you don't have to worry about splitting with him.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/21/11 08:25 AM
[quote=Scotland You should try ot use the IM as little as possible as it will still keep you stuck, even if your IM is good wink

[/quote]

Yes indeed! A big comfort to me is how well my plan is going. My evidence turned out to be pretty good, my exposure was fast and hit hard and wide, my plan a emails also hit the mark I would guess and plan b is driving him super crazy. On top of all that my IM is world class!

No matter what I will know every possible effort was made.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/21/11 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by LuvsDavid
I know in the US there are agencies that will handle the management part of renting your house for a small fee. Just have them send the proceeds to bothof you so you don't have to worry about splitting with him.



Yes this is what I would need, especially if out of the country. I dont want to give him a share of the rent though! grumble
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/21/11 08:49 AM
Hi Indie,

Legal Aid question.

You would be eligible for Legal Aid if you are on benefits or on a low wage. As you work full time I doubt if you would be.

I googled do I need a solicitor for a divorce UK and several good pages came up which would give you a good idea if you need a solicitor.

Most estate agents will handle rental properties and take all the hassle out of it for you. They deal with everything for a fee and the rent would just be paid into your account.

If softlad is on the mortgage docs then he will have a claim on any monies. I know.......it stinks but there you go!!

Glad to see you moving forward though. I like the elastic band idea, might steal that one for when I get Ginge wandering into my head, I don't need her living there rent free!!

Hugs
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/21/11 06:23 PM
The elastic band is proving surprisingly useful. It means I am vetting my thoughts and have started to see there is a difference between thinking about him/memories and between thinking about my feelings of sadness and withdrawal from him. The first is not necessary and the second is.

Today is going pretty well.

I guess it makes sense to try and divide stuff up now. not only for the sake of my plans, but if I wait until it is part of a divorce it will be messier.

I have a slight q regarding Plan B.

In SAA, Dr Harley says the purpose of encouraging John to do Plan B is he will be safe from Sue's toxic behaviour that way and 'will have fewer memories of the affair' should they decide to reconcile. So I take it this 'protects' the love bank from further withdrawals.

However he also says that should Sue not want to reconcile, John will have gone so long without contact, without her depositing into his lovebank, that 'he will no longer be in love with her'. A divorce will therefore hurt less.

Surely it is impossible for Plan B to both shrink AND protect the love bank balance you have for your WS? So does it 'freeze' the LB? Make it inactive?

This is a concept Im struggling with and as it is my number one job for the next few months, thought I should get it straight in my head...
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/21/11 09:57 PM
"Then someday I will begin POJA with my new husband"

LOL, Indie! I saw this post on Hops thread and didn't want to t/j.

POJA-ed dinner with 7 randomly matched friends in a big city a few weeks ago for a decision for dinner. I introduced the "lowest common denominator game" which involved bar napkins, pens and huge laughs. MB concepts sneak their way in to daily life...and, we didn't end up at a drive-thru! smile

Very impressed with you, lady!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/21/11 10:28 PM
Thanks surfer grin I try.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/21/11 10:34 PM
And, you help others as well. A lot! I am a huge lurker, and I keep my eye on you ladies!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/21/11 10:56 PM
I am glad to hear that the rubber band is working. I thought about doing it myself before.

Now, about the Plan B and lovebank things. Okay, I will tell you what someone else told me about it. Plan B takes your LB$ and puts it away in a safe place under lock and key. The only person who can unlock that key would be an unrepentant husband. If he doesn't come along in a certain amonut of time, the lock will remain shut. Now, it doesn't mean that it will ALWAYS remain locked and that is why it is very dangerous for people with histories to stay in contact. There is always a chance that that lock will spring open again.

Process whatever you need to process to heal. You seem to be able to tell the difference between thinking abou WH and processing your own feelings and sitch. Great work.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/21/11 11:11 PM
Hey I am quick and with such excellent teachers, have no excuse to not do well in MB school!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/23/11 02:07 PM
Does anyone put stock in the five stages of grieving?

1) Denial, 2) anger, 3) bargaining, 4) depression, 5) acceptance?

1)What BS hasnt tried to deny obvious signs? I did.
2)My taker nearly did some pretty angry stuff when that stage was over!
3)As for bargaining Im unsure. What Ive read says you try to come up with plots to regain your loss or bargain with god. I did speak to god which is very unusual for me. I also think the 'plans' of MB are a sort of bargaining. At first the BS think of the plans as a way to purely 'get back' what they have lost - not as a way to heal themselves.
4) this stage was unmistakable.

Looking back at my thread I think I may have gone through these stages.

It's a bit soon to say that I am in acceptance, only been a couple of days since I've felt 'zen' again. I still feel sad about everything and think it stinks, but I balance that with how better things will definitely be no matter what.

However I have been here before and it was just the up part of the rollercoaster.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/23/11 11:45 PM
Yes, we do all go through the stages of grief when this happens, especially when we are in Plan B.

You feel the ups and downs, and you know that there is probably going to be another down at some point. It takes time, but when more time goes on, there will be more time before you get a down turn of the roller coaster.

You're doing GREAT and you should be super proud of yourself. It's not easy to stay dark, but you are managing and it is paying off. Keep it up.
Yes grief
Betrayal seems to be worse than the death of a loved one, but it still is loss either way
Having had both pretty close together I would say betrayal is worse

Counselors for a long time have said to treat the loss of a lover like a death, because they are gone from your life. In this case you are removing the poison that the diseased is a carrier of by doing a plan B

Btw
I have heard the stages come for us all at different times and not in a specific order either
Some people have some that happen so fast they think they missed them completly
It's good to remember these stages are about dealing with loss
Don't set a rule of grieving and watch for the stages some losses are handled better than others
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/24/11 07:34 PM
So I heard a bunch more stuff about him today when I took his mail around to his relatives.

I can't repeat any of it, because I just sort of squinted my brain until all I could hear was WAH WAH WAH like Charlie Brown's teacher.

I dont CARE where he lives, how happy/unhappy - anything. The only thing I need to know is that he hasnt agreed N/C, or to jump through any hoops, etc, so he's persona non grata.

I had told her I wasnt talking about him but she went on and on - do I need a sandwich board and a bell?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/26/11 01:05 AM
OMG Indie, you are AMAZING. I continue to see posts from you and am simple in awe. Keep up the great work. You 'get" this.

kiss
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/26/11 01:17 AM
I feel like I do. I just wish I had 'got' it earlier. frown

Oh no wait, I dont mean me - I mean softlad....! laugh
I saw the post you made about the two space cases before you deleted it Indie. It truly was insightful. The comment about "using new words" was classic in all kinds of areas of life is it not?

I remember the movie, "As good as it gets", and when Nicholson,(Udall), was talking to his beat up niehbor Greg Caneer, about his problem with Helen Hunt and the relationship he was trying to have with her. Greg Caneer is identifing with the feelings, and Udall says, "Geez, I'm drowning here and your describing the water!. I thought you people were suppossed to be sensitive or something!"

Yeah talk is cheap, and actions speak louder that words.

Hope you are doing well, and I see that you are not fooled very long by the words slung around by liers, and have a good head on your shoulders. I look forward to hearing great things with you.

God Bless
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/26/11 10:51 PM
Thanks. I thought it was pretty good too, just changed my mind about it!

Sometimes people do hang on to words and believe what they want to for a while. I know I did.

I am feeling stronger. My energy is still quite low, so I'm not getting much done. I think about him a lot. I think it is fair to say though that I dont let those thoughts wander or confuse me. I always come back to 'he knows what he needs to do' 'that is what love is' and that 'I deserve REAL love'.

When I married it was to a man, not a boy. A man who would walk over hot coals for me, would defend me to anybody, would stand between me and any pain.

I never asked him to prove these things to me, they were not there to be done. They are now. He either does them or he's gone.

My love may well run out long before he decides that I am more important then his being stubborn. His call.

Someone asked me the other day if I now thought 22 was too young to get married. No I dont think so. I had the same views on marriage that day that I do today. I was willling to go the extra mile, do anything that the future required of me for my husband.

Maybe this is naive but I believe he was prepared to do those things too. He isnt now though and that is unacceptable.

I've made a pledge to myself from now to get into bed at midnight from here on, so I will bid you all a sweet goodnight.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/27/11 12:25 AM
Glad you are focusing on getting more sleep. I know that when I am tired, all things get to me more.

I still have times when I think about my WH and my sitch but it is getting further apart and it is easier for me to get back on track.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So I heard a bunch more stuff about him today when I took his mail around to his relatives.

I can't repeat any of it, because I just sort of squinted my brain until all I could hear was WAH WAH WAH like Charlie Brown's teacher.

I dont CARE where he lives, how happy/unhappy - anything. The only thing I need to know is that he hasnt agreed N/C, or to jump through any hoops, etc, so he's persona non grata.

I had told her I wasnt talking about him but she went on and on - do I need a sandwich board and a bell?

Boy I am jealous of you Indie, because when I pulled the "support the alcoholic" plug from my wife a long time ago, boy was that mean of me, but I called the Bull like it was, and ignored the pleas, accusations, and just calmly said, "You made your choices, God will help you, You have the tools and do not respect me enough to be honest even with yourself nevermind me, praying for you." and then would just hang up.

Of course these were awful times, and staying away from her was all I could do to get my life back on track, for myself and my children I wanted to take away from her ASAP. Yes there would be times after contact I would have to meditate and pray, do some martial arts katas, and calm down my racing mind, but I really didn't have any support, no church, no groups,(Alanon but they don't help with seperations really), just my Mom who would listen, but I really could not take to much of her time, as you probably guessed, I was a talker. So meditation and positive thinking making a plan and actual physical activity was all I had.

I felt pretty much alone, and this woman who spoke so eloquently of God, quoted scripture, had a dream and vision to have a home where children could come to heal and be loved, as I also wanted to do with the latter part of my life, just would not stop her drastic independent behavior and drinking, basically because she didn't want to.

I had done what needed to be done for years treating my diabetetes, started to get fit, and enjoy the simple things in life. Just getting away from the drama worked wonders in my soul. All that was left was to save the children, and pray she would get better, so she could maybe be some kind of mother to them in the future. My KISA role she gave me,(Thats allways crap of the highest degree),was just what I thought it was, a way to blame someone else if she fell. We were done, fini, there was no way to fix this, and I made the decision to stay alive myself and away from the pit she was dragging us down in.

It was great, and whithin a month I knew I was right to leave the relationship, but I was still in a damaged state, and trying to fix myself, my finances, and get back on track with my plan to support my son from the first marriage, get a solid place of residence so he could come out and visit,(he was 8 ATT, and I needed to be able to have him come and stay with me for periods of time before he was 12)and find a career that I fit in. I had the IQ, the work ethic, and everybody who knew me saw big things for the future, I had allready accomplished a lot more than people my age had, and overcome some stupid mistakes at a young age. I had a strict and defined plan and depended on my health and determination and discipline to deal correctly with the most important responsibility I had, the stablility and emotional health of my children.

After all, that was what kept me in my first marriage way past the point when it broke down because of honesty, and got me into the next one, the lives of the innocent children I/we had created. It was a blessing to have them, and allways has been to me a big responsibility that shows rewards beyond what we can even understand as parents, there was nothing more important. There was no excuse to not care for them, and people had to care for themselves first.

But unfortunatly I was 29 years old, and still had some ideas that I should be dating, that that would help me overcome the past lost, get my confidence back, relate to other adult women who from my experience during the 70s and 80s, seemed to have this idea beat about sex and commitment. My experiences taught me that not only do women in the workplace now have sex with whomever they want, if you didn't play that game, now you were either Gay or had some social problem. Yes it was the "Sexual 70s", "The me generation", and I wondered, was this some kind of problem I had? Shouldn't I be having 1 night stands like everybody else seemed to be? Why couldn't I, well, maybe that is why I got screwed over this time, I was just,"too nice" of a guy. I made it a point to change that, because the world isn't nice. As a matter of fact my desire to help my WW feel safe from the world she grew up in, that she said she wanted to escape so badly from, greatly contradicted her alcoholic behavior. If I had trusted my instints at the beginning, maybe I would not have been drawn in.

Nope, it was time to be a harder man, and not care so much, the damage was taking its toll on my character, and I did not see it. Sex which was supposed to be sacred between a man and a woman to create life, was again turned into a social skill by screwwed up people, and it was a game I would have to learn how to play. That attitude alone ruined my chances to heal my wife when I got back together with her two years later, because I tried to live that way, slept with a girl who heard my story and fell in love with me, but would not marry after seeing what I was really all about then. God I wish I had MB then to support me in that time, but still I do not use that as an excuse for my selfish behavior. The girl after 1 1/2 years finnally dumped me because I was a mess, and she saw I was using her. Good for her.

The shock of what I had become, and the rebound from the affair, brought me to my knees. The guilt that drove me most of my life to be more than the average idiot, and man with a conscience, putting up with more than I had to, kind and considerate, came back full force. I saw what I had done, had became cruel and useing, just because I wanted control and did not want to be hurt, and wanted my fair share. It is something that can and does happen to people in life, they harden thier heart. I did it purposly.

I fell onto Gods grace, and my WW had been on her knees for over a year, praying I would return to the marriage. In my weakened state I did not have the conviction to press her towards AA, therapy I knew she allways needed, and her addiction had only gone deep underground. She had learned a lot, changed a lot, and I knew that anyone could change if they really wanted to be honest and do the work, so for the childrens sake and the hope that we would be healed, we got back together. Many of the tools used in MB were used for healing, but because the denial was so strong in the alcoholism, and it took so much away from each of us that was never dealt with completly right, in two years, our recovery started slipping away because she fell again.

There is a counsellor for AA who is also a Christian brother of mine who says, "With God and the twelve steps you can do anything". Its true, you need to be on your knees and looking up at the powerful Father in heaven, both, and those twelve steps are good for any form of addiction in life. Just like MB can help everybody in the integrity of relationships everywhere.

No real reason why I posted this to you speciffically. Possibly because you seem to get the BullChit people tend to be full of, and the fantasies they are willing to fall for. I am sure you are not in danger of a rebound relationship this soon, and I am not in any kind of distress needing advice, but I allways listen to others anyway, heck thats why I am here, to connect to people. Sometimes just putting things down on paper helps me clarify my story, and because I am NOT afraid of being human and know that I have made mistakes, I share a lot on this site. You never know where you might help.

Take good care of yourself we all appreciate you.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/27/11 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Glad you are focusing on getting more sleep. I know that when I am tired, all things get to me more.

I still have times when I think about my WH and my sitch but it is getting further apart and it is easier for me to get back on track.


I know, there are no shortcuts unfortunately. There must be a good reason for this..!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/27/11 09:21 AM
Thanks CP
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/27/11 12:31 PM
Quote
There must be a good reason for this..!

When you find it, lemme know, k? HEHEHE

I will tell you that my life is more at peace now than it has been in a LONNNGGG time. When I am around people who have drama in their lives, I want to RUN. Also, small things just don't seem to bother me in the same way anymore. laugh

Stay strong. You are growing so much and I am proud of you. kiss
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/27/11 08:14 PM
Threw myself a bit of a pity party earlier (ok, im still doing it). No matter how hard I try the next few months arent going to be much fun. I didnt do anything to deserve that. I know bad things happen to people all the time that they dont deserve, but the person closest to me in the world DECIDED to do this, then decided to lie about it, then decided to do it some more.

Then he invented marriage problems that were 'my' fault. He then moved on to insult me, gaslight me, manipulate me to work harder on the marriage so I wouldnt leave. When finally caught with his pants down, he decides to deny it all and run round town protecting HER reputation by calling me a liar.

I wouldn't do even one of those things to someone I hated with all my soul.

I really would rather he had hit me.

Ok, so he may not be having much fun in Plan B either. I may have done a good exposure which has seen them both writhing in shame.

That doesnt alleviate my pain. What will? Time I have, but I begrudge it. I feel like this time is mine, I worked hard in the run up to this time, meaning to enjoy it. Enjoy my tenth wedding anniversary next week and maybe getting to the point where we getting along better. Starting a family even.

I put on hold my plans to support his grief and baffling behaviour. He stole my time. Now it belongs to grieving and there doesnt seem to be much to do about that.

Just booked a massage and a meal at my favourite restaurant for the anniversary. I have some plans coming up. I dont know.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/27/11 08:18 PM
More ranting -

If he had told me truthfully the marriage was not for him and why - if we had tried to do SOMETHING about it, before the marriage ended I could handle it better.

I'm never going to have anything like a closure conversation with him because he's just a selfish wayward that you cant talk to.


Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/27/11 11:59 PM
I too sometimes wish that I knew all of the truth, that I would be able to get all of the info so I would KNOW what was the truth of my marriage, my life. He stole that away from me, and I let it happen. frown

But, then, I need to move on. I need to get past this anger, hurt and resentment, and I have to let it go. I may probably never know everything. And I have to be okay with that. It's like I was reading a book, and I found out that there were 50 pages missing smack dab in the middle, and they are gone, never to return, how can I know the full story? I can't. And I am okay with that now(mostly grin ).

Sleeping better yet? How about eating?

I know that your anniversary is going to suck this year. It is a fact, but it is how you get over that hump that will help you. Allow yourself a pity party about it, and then get on with your healing. You are gonna feel sad, and angry, and you should let that happen, so you can get past it.

Wayturds suck azz.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
More ranting -

If he had told me truthfully the marriage was not for him and why - if we had tried to do SOMETHING about it, before the marriage ended I could handle it better.

I'm never going to have anything like a closure conversation with him because he's just a selfish wayward that you cant talk to.
If I knew she was using the word of God to appear a victim and only meant it when it was comfortable I would have not bought the package either
We will al just have get over it and rise above
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/28/11 03:40 AM
"I'm never going to have anything like a closure conversation with him because he's just a selfish wayward that you cant talk to."


So sorry, Indie, but per above? You will, but it'll be wasted on your WH as things stand today. Come here for closure, and to help with going through the grief stages (Yes, they are very, very real.) You have found comfort here in absence of your WH? No substitute, I know.

Also, you are rocking with advice and insight for others...carry on, lady! smile!

Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/28/11 04:24 AM
You are doing wonderfully Indie! Just wonderfully. You are a MB hero to me, and I had to walk the path of a non reconciliation, but I am hoping your situation will end differently.

Your outlook is amazingly healthy and yes, you WILL feel these emotions and it becomes easier in time. Yes, you will go through the stages of grief if things do not recover. Sometimes closure is never to be given. In the end, I had to formulate my own type of closure for the death of my marriage.

In the end, it was simply about somebody who felt they deserved, and were entitled to more than 1 woman. Somebody who felt they deserved to be a dad when they wanted to be, but most of the time felt that being a playboy was a much more fun thing to do. He would fail. I knew that when I was going thru the "why" and wanting closure stage. That I knew.

I also knew without a doubt his affairage to ow would end and end badly someday. It certainly did. Much worse than my divorce sadly (for the oc). And in the requiem for my former marriage, I had to just know that he had become somebody else. that the man I once knew, was dead forever emotionally to me.

Knowing and accepting these things makes moving on easier somewhat. It is never hard. I divorced at age 33. Right in the middle of the time when I was to have my second child. We'd planned on it. It was a done deal right? Wrong.

I had to change my entire existence and that of my son because of a very selfish entity walking the earth (my xwh). But I changed it as little as possible because neither myself nor my son deserved that.

YOU have all the time in the world to move ahead if it comes to that. I have no doubt you will. It is hard with the anniversary coming around. It is. I find myself at bizarre and odd times thinking how many years it would have been now. I heard on the news earlier that the 15th anniversary of the bombing in ATL at the Olympic games happened and it brought me back to the year I'd married my x (1996). Wierd things bring you back to that. But it gets far far better in time.

I now don't feel much at all, except that he became a waste of humanity. A waste of being a good father and wasting his life away. That's sad, but not my problem anymore. He owns his s**t. I don't.

After a sabbatical from dating after the divorce and time to heal, and a few years after that just enjoying life as a mom and regrouping, I met the real love of my life and later this week is our first wedding anniversary. Now THAT I am excited about. If somebody told me during my darkest days here, that I would be doing this now and so so happy with a man who is actually dad to my son far more than the bio-dad is? I could have never imagined it.

Just know that things WILL work out well for you if you stay the path. Keep the path. have the clear objectives ahead of you like you already do. Know that either he cleans up his act and changes, or else Indie moves ahead and has a beautiful future.

Just lending some love and support your way. Keep fighting the good fight. You rock!
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/28/11 04:26 AM
Had to add in this, I was one of those who didn't have a bad marriage either. People actually envied us. We had a good life. We'd built our dream home, and had a beautiful young child, and life was good.


But it wasn't exciting enough for my xwh. That is all it was in the end. It was never about our marriage. It was all about him. Chalk him up to one of the numerous narcissistic waywards we encounter here on MB.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/28/11 10:26 AM
thanks Scotty, sleeping and eating much bettter. It is an effort but my number one priority of the day which I am hoping will help.

Peachy you are quite the inspiration to me. I think its amazing how you have moved on. I am sure I can too, but it's quite the job imagining it sometimes.

Came into work today with a real 'can do' attitude. Have been told though that I might have to work on my anniversary which isNot what I wanted to hear. Aside from wanting to treat myself, I hate having a rubbish day at work when I donļæ½t do well. I have no idea what kind of state Iļæ½m going to be in on the day and if I screw up or am constantly chasing my tail because I feel down, Iļæ½m going to feel worse than I did. Work are sympathetic but I left it too late and other people are booked off. Itļæ½s possible I may still get it off, but its not likely. The only thing I can think to do is to take extra good care of myself between now and then. Make great plans for that evening and something to look forward to the following weekend. Get ahead in my work before Wednesday (the anniversary ) so that the day is easier for me. Also I will probably show up earlier, looking fresher, better and even more professional than usual. However while these plans look good on paper, I donļæ½t want to overestimate myself.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/28/11 06:21 PM
So one of the managers comes up to me this afternoon and says "your hols - are you ready to negotiate?'

I just smiled straight off. Love the word negotiate - it always means that someone is LISTENING to you.

Anyway I can have the anniversary off and the next day too after all. I just need to make it up elsewhere in the week and make sure I take care of some things before Wednesday.

This was tough for my work to arrange for me as so many people have left recently. Yet they did when it would have been easier to just not care about how I was and do what was best for them.

If people who I dont even have a personal relationship with are willing to do this for me, why wouldn't my own husband just negotiate with me?

Feel better today, feels like the start of an upswing.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/30/11 08:45 AM
OK this is practically an essay but I keep getting stalled and don't know what to do about it.

One thing I keep circling around in my head is Valentine's Day this year, which is also my birthday. He always makes a huge deal about it and makes me feel very special usually.

This year, he was harping on about the fight we'd had at christmas a lot in the run up to my birthday. He made me feel incredibly guilty about it all. Said he couldnt move on from things he'd heard me say.

He said he was going to visit his godparents for a week (they live in the US, in michigan) just before my birthday to straighten things out in his head. I supported this as he is really close to them and they are a good influence on him. I felt that since losing his best friend and someone to talk to, he was letting things get out of perspective and on top of him.

Just before he left he told me that the way he felt meant he might not come back. When I dropped him off at the airport I was in floods of tears which made him hold me very close and be very affectionate.

We were in touch a lot while he was away, and we were really connecting over the phone. He was supposed to come back a few days before my birthday. However on the 7th, I got this email from him about how he would now be coming home the day before my birthday. "You ok, hope so. You may shout at me - I've changed my flight so get home on Sunday now. Seemed a waste to rush back if not in work, so thought the extra few days would be good. More fuel to those who say I aint any good I guess.

Hope your day's going ok at least. If I get out and about later will call you tonight"

Now I am imagining that he changed the days so he could spend the day before valentines day with her.... you know, come back early, get a hotel near the airport and have their own valentines day sort of thing.

He may have been with her the entire time....

He freaked when I suggested meeting him at the gate on his return and wouldnt give me his flight number. I got very specific instructions to pick him up outside the airport.

The thing is, I know obsessing about this stuff is pointless but I am so tempted to call his godmother up and ask her when he left them.

I need to leave it be. I keep dipping my hands in the sewerage of the affair to see just how dirty the water is. Pointless. I know enough.

Is it really any worse/better that had a valentines with her than the fact he took her to a fancy country hotel in cheshire just because it was a Wednesday?

I need a mantra or something. It doesnt matter WHAT that cake-eater did. Anything he did do was just about getting cake...

When he was single and sane he chose me as the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with.

He got himself into the fog where a dumpy vindictive woman he had always hated flattered him into submission

He needs to get himself out of his own mess. I need to concentrate on me.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/30/11 11:20 AM
Hi Indie,

Yup, all those bits of jigsaw pieces are fitting into place, having to re write memories, finding triggers we didn't think would trip us up.

In a while you will be able to recognise them as just that, triggers, notice them and let them go. Seems like your brain is going round and round in circles.

Keep the focus on you, you are an amazing, strong and beautiful woman who he was stupid enough and selfish enough to damage.

My plonker in a bit of a sniff the other day said 'it's all about you, you always need to be the centre of attention'

6 months ago that would have sent me into a spiral......today....I can just smile and think that he is just projecting, after all it was him who needed to be the centre of 2 womens world for years!! (Mmmmm who was it needs to be the centre of attention?)

Just to show that the hurt does subside, you will be occasionally blindsided for a while but like any bereavement, you have to get through the first year and all the anniversaries.

You can't change the past, you can't change him, you can only change yourself and today.

((((hugs))))
Yea hindsight is 20/20 indie
I have reconstructed many things from the past also, that just affirm more details of what I allready knew in my heart
Some of my long time suspicions were confirmed, and still I discovered more garbage

My advice is get while the gettings good, and find a way to think about something else. You can do that you know , it is your mind, he has lost his place in your life

The managing memories thread by mark may help, but cheer up, you at least don't have to listen to the lies and pouting anymore

What a softhead softlad is
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/30/11 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Tanam
In a while you will be able to recognise them as just that, triggers, notice them and let them go.


Yeah hopefully. A week or so ago the pain was so bad I couldnt see where it started and were it ended. Now the pain is still big, still heavy, but I can grab each side and handle it.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
What a softhead softlad is


Agreed!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/31/11 08:33 PM
Focus on me........

That's a snappy, easy to remember mantra, wouldn't you say?

I think I will feel a whole lot better once I get moving with my me plans.

I dont have to leave for work tomorrow until 1pm so I am going to spend the morning on the phone to the bank.

I will get some info on how much the mortgage payments would be should I buy him out, then I can put the offer to him

I sent a FB message today to an old friend of mine who works on cruise ships. Hoping she can guide me in some good choices. The last thing I need after all this is to land on a floating he11 for a couple months after what Ive been through.

Im dropping by on my bro and SiL tomorrow too. I need him to help me paint the house ready for renters. She is a big Harry Potter fan so going to make plans with her to see the new one.

BUSY busy busy.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/31/11 10:31 PM
It's very good to keep busy. It will keep you on your Plan ME. Keep it up.

You sound like you are doing all of the right things. Don't be too hard on yourself when you have some bad days, I am still having some, although they come much less often.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/02/11 11:33 PM
Ok, its 20 minutes into my 10th wedding anniversary,

I feel pretty good. Have done for a couple of days.

So I have a luxury pedicure and a massage booked for tomorrow before dinner at my favourite restaurant, just me and my mum.

It's funny but I am feeling myself drift quite a lot from the very entwined, in love feeling I have had to my h for 15 years.

I had thought at first the only options would either be to intensely love or hate him - who knew?

I know I would be super tough if recovery became an option.

Its giving me the perspective to see his serious character flaws, which I excused, as well as his strong points. This insight could form a list a conditions at some point, but theres no point thinking along those lines now.

Getting very good at redirecting thoughts to me and my life from here.

All I hope for is the opportunity to grow, to meet a good man who truly loves me, whether it is him or someone else, who knows?

I am going to get some beauty sleep now, ready for my day of fun tomorrow.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/11 02:49 AM
hug

And hug your mum for me too. She is a good egg. grin

There are gonna be some tough moments for you these next few months, but this one was YOURS. You are going through this with your head held high. Good job.

We are all here for you, and we all understand. My anni will be on Sep 20th, 14 years it would have been. I wonder what I will do.....hmmm you have me thinking now too.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/04/11 10:03 PM
Had a lovely time yesterday, wasnt nearly so hard as Id imagined.

My mum got a hug from me and a hug from scotty, which made her laugh.

My dad joined us for a drink after dinner and I want their marriage someday. I always did.

They have a totally integrated life, they negotiate on the run, they POJA everything. They go to bed laughing together every night.

Why didnt I insist my marriage be run the same way?

For two very bad reasons.

1) It was difficult to get him to see the necessity and I wasnt firm about it. To be honest I was lazy.

2) I wanted girls nights out and girls weekends away and to put my career first. So I let him have independent behaviour too. I was selfish.

Ah well. Live and learn.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/04/11 10:12 PM
Your mom liked my good ol Canadian hug. wink

I am glad that you're anni went better than you expected but that was only because it was well planned for and you were ready for whatever was going to be thrown at you. Good work

You know what standard you are going to set for your next relationship and that can be with your WH or without him. And in the end it will be your decision because you have the power.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/04/11 10:17 PM
Thanks Scotty, I really won't settle for anything less....
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/04/11 10:18 PM
What also really helps is that when I know I have a great advice source ahould the time come when I need to make those difficult decisions!!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/04/11 10:22 PM
Whoever could you mean? lashes
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/05/11 08:02 PM
kiss
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/05/11 10:11 PM
Im not sure if this is plan B thinking exactly, as im not supposed to be thinking about softlad.

But I am to be honest, at least I am thinking about my boundaries and what it would take to get me back in the marriage.

Some of these boundaries would also apply to indiehusband #2 if such a person is in my destiny wink

So,

No overnight trips away from each other
(softlad would go spare over this b/c he goes to vegas for a long weekend every year. I too like my girlie trips, but out they go)

Agrees to give away season ticket for football games and to give up going out to watch the game in the pub
(Football - or soccer! - takes up his entire weekend sometimes and the money we would need for our UA time)

As above for his pool team night, so I would need to give up my dance class.

No opposite sex friends

No flirting, inappropriate behaviour, personal conversations with members of opposite sex.

Complete transparency with email passwords bank accounts, phones etc
(very difficult, such a 'private person')

Complete transparency about our lives and histories. No more secrets. (His finances are a mystery, I have glossed my personal history a bit and I know he has a huge secret in his childhood he wont tell me about)

Forgives and apologises to his brother who he hasnt spoken to for 15 years for calling him a liar
(To earn forgiveness you need to first show you have a clue what it means. This is something I can't ever see him agreeing to though.)

An agreement that we want children in the next five years.
(If he honestly doesnt want children, fine, but Im not sacrificing myself to that lifestyle.)

An agreement to POJA all decisions

An agreement to spend 25 hours a week giving each other our undivided attention; no TV, mobile phone, no other people.

A commitment that he will POJA a bedtime with me and come upstairs with me rather than letting me go up alone.

A joint bank account where we make joint decisions about all spending. Our money is joint and 'ours' not 'his and hers'

That we have at least four weekends away a year plus an annual holiday

That we kickstart the recovery with a three week break (no excuses about job allowing him time blah blah blah)

That we do MB counselling

That he posts on here for feedback and advice for the first year of recovery at least.

That he owns up to and admits the infidelity to family members and apologises to everyone he has hurt.

Is this tough enough? I think its too tough. I would want to see some enthusiasm and some of it being his own idea.....

Tough only if you are not seriuos about marriage and what it should be. Realistic if you want to be married

my .02
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/05/11 11:18 PM
I don't think it's too tough at all.

It's okay to think about these sorts of things while in Plan B. It is a must, as far as I'm concerned.

Now, about pool and dance, could you guys do these activities together? Even football(I don't like American football anyways, I never got into it) could become something you two do together.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/05/11 11:49 PM
Pool. I suck at it but I could learn I spose.

I always wanted him to teach me pool, plus poker and chess. I guess now is an opportunity to teach myself.

Dancing he hates, football (english fb) I hate (I really try as its so important to him but I just go into a trance). I thought sport events and movies werent UA time? I'm still not sure on that one.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/05/11 11:57 PM
They don't count towards the minimums that you need to keep your marriage at the romantic level but you should also never spend any rec time without your spouse. So, if you want to go dancing, he's gotta go with you(POJA'd of course). If you two can't agree to it, then it would need to go.

I'm not good at pool, but my WH did teach me, and we would spend hours at pool halls when we first started dating. Sometimes there were others, and most of the time, I watched him play. It gave me LOTS of time to admire him, he really is good at playing pool. It would be a fun night out. smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/06/11 12:01 AM
Yes I actually did used to do the admiring of the pool-playing but then I stopped!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/06/11 12:05 AM
Sadly, so did I. MB is amazing isn't it? Whether our WH's get the advantage of our new found knowledge, or someone else does, we will be darn good at EN meeting this time around. grin
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/07/11 09:02 PM
So I have a bit of a situation. Softlad's godmother is in town (She lives in the US) She and I get on really well and she is prob the person he listens to and respects the most.

She will probably spend a lot of time at her sisters house, which is next door. Her sister earlier said I should drop round and I am bound to see her sometime

I never exposed to her as I dont have her contact details but I know other members of her family have spoken with her and she is very shocked

She will no doubt want to hear things directly from me and I dont really object. Does this go against Plan B though? I am sure I can ask her not to mention anything about softlad to me, she is a very grounded person who would understand.

I would have to really dodge her to avoid seeing her and I dont want her getting the wrong idea.
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/07/11 09:52 PM
Nope. Call her up and invite her to a girls' lunch. Have a very nice and light convo with her and LOOK FABULOUS. And YES do expose the whole situation to her.

But also make it about the visit with HER too. Let her know you love wh and that you're doing all you can do, including working a plan that has amazing results helping marriages, but right now, you have to be away from the drama and pain of the affair and betrayal and WANT her support in standing FOR YOUR MARRIAGE.

Sure, it's exposure. And YES she is part of the friends and family exposure plan, so she needs to be brought up in a friendly way to speed.

And nothing's better than having a fun girls' luncheon somewhere nice and dressing up and looking fabulous. Trust me, it will get back to WH that you love him, that the affair IS WRONG, and that the affair MUST END if you are to have contact with him ever again.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/07/11 10:21 PM
Definitely won't break Plan B by exposing your WH's A.

There were people that I ran into after I started Plan B, and they would ask me about my WH, and I would tell them about the affair.

You know you're doing something right, when you want to make sure you are doing it right. laugh

Keep it up girl.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/08/11 05:36 PM
I work miles away and she's only here a few days, so lunch won't work. Love the idea though, Peachy.

Going to try and catch her tonight, see if she wants a coffee or something.

I may make some effort though! Be the goddaughter in law she was always kind of proud of. Honestly his family like me better than him some times.

Today was pretty bleak, but nowhere near as bad as previous bleak days. I am healing. Had a great work day where my boss complemented me nonetheless

I can just feel myself getting closer to 'goodbye' all the time. Scarily fast. I think I left unresolved problems in the marriage go on far too long and now its affecting my love bank.

I think he will turn around at some point, but I have a feeling it will be too little, too late.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/08/11 05:45 PM
And I think that is one of the true reasons for Plan B. Healing the BS. Making us able to pick up the pieces and move on.

Sorry for your bleak day. You know there will be better ones. hug
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/08/11 10:52 PM
Softlad is looking really bad to me today. Is this normal?

Its not even in a 'I hate him' kind of way, or even about the A, which I could understand.

I'm looking into the far past, which I thought of as so romantic at the time, and I dont really see much now.

When we were dating (we never lived together before marriage) I thought of him as so devoted to me, and everyone else agreed with that assessment.

But now I just see him as being stupidly infatuated with me, without having the maturity to truly appreciate what a real relationship was going to take.

The early years of our marriage we were equally guilty in being too independent. We always had our best fun with each other, though.

He annoyed me by not helping either clean or renovate our house. Not doing any gardening either, but I wasnt really emphatic about getting him to do anything about these problems

We didnt take holidays together. He would say we would, then plan his boys trip to vegas, and then we wouldnt have time/money for a trip for us.

Affection, converstation, admiration were very free flowing both ways for many years nonetheless.

SF was a huge issue, I felt rejected a lot. I still wonder why as it was fine when we were dating.

Then when I took a job that involved a long commute and opposite shifts, things got rustier, but we were still pretty tight.

Then cue his friends death and the hole that ripped between us.

I was badly treated from that point on, but never lost love for him, it had an amazing strength.

Of course I believed a lot of the blame he dished out on me.

I dont know. Why would the man I loved so, so much, start looking like a joke to me now?

I was willing to forgive his infidelity when I first discovered it and things were raw then.

Given some space and distance - now I don't even know what I was thinking for 15 years.

Is this the blinkers coming off, or just survival mode?

Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/08/11 11:29 PM
Indie,

I think some of us just take our marriage vows more seriously than others. Some of us are willing to do the work to save the M because that's what we promised. That's what we stand for and who we are. For better or worse till death do us part. Others just don't seem to put too much weight on that ...the promises that they made. They would rather just take the easy road. That's who they are.

Don't beat yourself up over the IB. Society seems to encourage it. I don't think you would have spent that much time apart if you truly understand how detrimental it would be. You were living your life the best way that you knew.

I know that MB has taught me many things about life and relationships. I won't be in an unhealthy relationship again. I am sure that you are the same. Take comfort in that.

(((hugs)))





Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/08/11 11:33 PM
Its Plan B dear. And it is personal recovery. Your Taker is also screaming at you. When I had times like these I just remembered to focus on healing and my own personal recovery. I also reminded myself that I had a timeline and that I wasn't going to make any decisions on either an up or down slope and instead just keep doing what I was doing for the amount of time I allotted.

So, I would say that it is completely normal and all part of the process. Isn't personal recovery a hoot wink
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/09/11 12:33 AM
Yes, Scotty my taker has lots of energy! My goodness.

Pokerface, no that is one thing I really dont fear, no unhealthy relationships for me.

I wouldnt change this experience either strangely, even though it is based on such a vile and unholy thing.

It has changed me. I like the changes and think I will have a better life with them.

I feel for softlad though. I wish I had helped him out of the mire earlier. Even if he did jump himself in like a stupid child.

Perhaps it is stupid to say such a thing of someone who has shown very immature ways of dealing with problems, but I think in some ways, he would have done it for me.

I dont know that he would have forgiven infidelity exactly, but he doesnt have a KISA complex for nothing. He would have helped me out of any mess that he could understand, if ykwim.

I am helping him out of it now the best I can. If the effort is too late, it is not something I can help.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/09/11 01:04 AM
WOW. The growth in you is AMAZING. I am so happy to "know" you. If I ever jump across the pond, I would LOVE to meet you.

I too, oddly, wouldn't change what has happened(mostly wink ). It made me into a person I am proud to be. Well, I am becoming one.

I love this place, because I know that I always have people around who understand exactly what I am going through.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/09/11 01:09 AM
I agree - My plan B is beginning to be my saving grace. I wouldn't change the affair either. I am finally seeing how I was lost in the marriage, and Plan B allows me to see how I can become a better person.

I am really working on understanding DJ's and how I did them on a regular basis. What I am learning is going into everything with no expectations in return. I can only control myself.

Letting go of my WH and the entire situation is what I needed to learn. As time continues I know it will be the greatest lesson I learn in life.

GOD be with all of us. Praying for us Plan B'ers

Tough
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Softlad is looking really bad to me today. Is this normal?

I think it's par for the course. I used to be SO attracted to my wife. I thought she was the most beautiful creature on earth. And for a time, she was. But after all the lies, lies, lies, the attraction just went away. Like a light switch just turned off. I cannot even think of SF when I look at her. I just think of the disappointment I feel and of the highly unattractive narcissism that makes up her character.
Indie
I think part of keeping the love going might be keeping the infatuation going too
You sound so clear, and strong, I am jealous, because I still am foggy, and doubt my judgement, as to what happened exactly, but I remember when in certain times, the blinders came off too, and it was revealing. I'm glad for you. It's a step in the right direction. I'll get there again also

You sound like you are doing great, and the observations are objective. If softlad is not in the history as the romantic husband, it is because he made it that way. I am sure it could have been a different story looked at it if you were together

You have a strong sense of self, and it's healthy, you are coming together, that's all after being ripped apart, SL will have to jump through some high hoops to win you back, that's for sure, as he should

You trusted him to stay true, and went with the flow, and he went with the ho. He is the one who stepped in it

15 years huh? You are doing so well, and seeing so much, I am sure you will be a winner. Hang in there Indie. God bless
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/09/11 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by TryingEverything
But after all the lies, lies, lies, the attraction just went away. Like a light switch just turned off. I cannot even think of SF when I look at her. I just think of the disappointment I feel and of the highly unattractive narcissism that makes up her character.


I get this, I have always been very attracted to 'goodness'. Plus my top need is O&H, so it makes sense that SL's stock is falling!
Originally Posted by Scotland
WOW. The growth in you is AMAZING. I am so happy to "know" you. If I ever jump across the pond, I would LOVE to meet you.

I too, oddly, wouldn't change what has happened(mostly wink ). It made me into a person I am proud to be. Well, I am becoming one.

I love this place, because I know that I always have people around who understand exactly what I am going through.


Thanks blush I am really grateful for your advice Scotty so its good to hear I am on the right track!! Plus I agree totally, the people here are incredible....

Missed SL's godmother, she had made plans and then had to go home. Oh weell, I might see if I can get her email address and tjust say I am sorry I missed her.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/13/11 07:20 PM
It was softlads birthday on Thursday. I didnt think of him for most of the day - thanks to my super organised 'keeping busy' plans, but toward the end of the day I did.

I am pretty 100 per cent certain he had a miserable day. He always does, for one thing. People (me especially of course) will say to him every year 'what do you want to do for your birthday'

Then he will mope and moan, say he doesnt like birthdays, refuse to make plans and practically threaten anyone who tries.

His birthday comes and goes without any plans taking place and he moans that nobody is really his friend!

This year will suck for him, her or no her.

I supose I was kind of wondering if he would try and break plan b but that ist really his style.

His style is insane stubbornness and leaving everything till its too late.

I can do without that.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/13/11 08:51 PM
hug

I know how hard it is for days like that to go by. It's funny, my WH didn't care much about birthdays either. I would make a cake for him and we would selebrate it. He would always sya that it was just another day. But when the boys wanted to do special things for him he was happy. Now, OW would need to meet that need and I don't give a rat's behind if she did or not.

You are doing so great and I am impressed. Plan B really is the best thing for a BS in a sitch like this. I wish ALL BSs would foolow Plan B as well as you have. smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/13/11 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
hug
I wish ALL BSs would foolow Plan B as well as you have. smile


Im sort of a nerd when it comes to investigating theories. If you're going to do it, do it right, following instructions correctly. Otherwise you will never prove it right or wrong.

I was simply trying it. Partly because I had nothing to lose, partly because the drama was killing me and I was dying to slam a door in his face.

I was q simply amazed at its effectiveness on ME, and now I am a believer. Dr H's theories made sense to me from the get-go - but there were a few things I found a bit hard to agree with.

(one was the no-opposite sex friends rule!!! clearly before i found out about the A)

However the past few months have shaken loose all my doubts. I think its important to have an open mind and give things a chance. A REAL chance, by following the rules.

Take recovery. It's still a bit of a stretch for me to believe relationships can recover from something like this. But I would take a shot. A REAL shot, giving it all I had if the conditions were right.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Scotland
hug
I wish ALL BSs would foolow Plan B as well as you have. smile


Im sort of a nerd when it comes to investigating theories. If you're going to do it, do it right, following instructions correctly. Otherwise you will never prove it right or wrong...

Yes funny isn't it? How we can sometimes be afraid to follow directions? Like life was so perfect before, and the world was going to have to comply to our wishes sooner or later. MrRollieEyes We can get to comfortable and then when the cold water gets thrown on us, it seems like such a surprize. "Hey!, I was enjoying my complacency and creature comfort! Can I have it back please?" "Maybe I will find someone who will agree with me. How about that new person I met at work?"

Then there are those who come here and are in recovery that have a hard time realizing that although thier marriage was/is in tough shape, and they are depressed because it needs change, that its only a matter of time if they go all in. The "death" of the old relationship will be resurrected to an even better and happier new one, if they will just let go of the old one. Sometimes they just won't let go of that old life. But change comes anyway, we only can control the direction if we grab the bull by the horns.

I agree with Scotty BTW that you picked up quickly on this stuff, and because you put a confident, cool and rational foot forward with conviction to follow the plan, and were not encased with fear, that you did well, and it would be much easier for others if they would do it to. It speaks of your objectivity and confidance in action.

I have a way I think of authority when I work for someone that is similar. When I am told to do something a certain way by my boss, unless I know for a fact that I could do it for his sake a better way,(yes his sake),I will do it just like he says. Instead of complaining to everybody about how much better my way is, and muttering to myself about it, I just do it and report the results back to the boss. I won't get dragged into murmuring with other workers either, and just say,"Thier the boss". If they call me a brown nose I say, "Well you can just call me brownie then"

You see authority figures need to learn also, and they take final responsibility for problems that arise. If I do what they say, with enthusiasm, and not my way, when they aren't looking, or because I think I know better, I am thwarting thier efforts, and destroying the posibility for success. They are in charge, and we need someone in charge and coordinating.

I might "think" I could do thier job better, but most likely I couldn't, and have no idea what it entails, not in the big picture. So I am thankful for them, and do what I hope they would do for me, if I was in thier position...what I am told to do. Its a common fact that if you show up for your job every day, and do exactly as you are told, you have allready beaten out 90% of the competition.

It takes a little guts to do as your told when all the others are busy finding very creative ways not to because they know better and don't like authority. In the end we are all middle management because thier is allways something or someone higher to answer to. Nobody gets it thier way forever, its allways changing, as we change with it and still hold onto what is valuable, our standards and boudaries that protect them. There is allways a higher authority. Ticks some people off to think that way, but thats thier problem.

So Indie you have had the guts to follow direction with an open mind, and instead of finding reasons not to do the plan, found ways to make it happen when you didn't even see its wisdom yet. Thats faith Sister. Welcome to the top 10% faint
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/14/11 06:56 PM
Softlad tried to contact me tonight.

As my landline phone number is still the same, Ive been screening calls so Im not taken unaware.

Tonight got a 'text message delivery' from his number to the landline, which is like a spoken message in a robot voice.

He used to send me funny messages that would sound odd in the robot voice to make me laugh using this method.

As soon as the message started to spell out his number, I ended the call without listening to the message.

I am very proud of myself because I was sooooo tempted to listen!!

What on earth could he possibly be ringing about? He has the IM for bill stuff etc. And why use that method of contact? The landline is the only contact point I havent changed, but why text, why not call?

Its hard not to get your hopes up.

Its also difficult not to feel a bit smug about the safety of plan B.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/14/11 09:33 PM
Getting mad now.

He doesnt care enough to agree NC through the IM which he KNOWS is what is needed to speak to me.

Doesnt care that all this nonsense is simply jerking me around.

The caring man with integity that I knew, would be horrified.

Been reading Rilla of Ingleside, (a sequel to Anne of Green Gables) and was really struck by a piece of wisdom regarding revenge.

Schoolkids in the first world war talking about what they would do to the Kaiser .....

"Norman Reese said in school to-day that he would like to tie the Kaiser to a tree and set cross dogs to worrying him," said Bruce gravely. "And Emily Flagg said she would like to put him in a cage and poke sharp things into him. But Mrs. Blythe"-- Bruce took a little square paw out of his pocket and put it earnestly on Anne's knee--"I would like to turn the Kaiser into a good man--a very good man--all at once if I could. That is what I would do. Don't you think, Mrs. Blythe, that would be the very worstest punishment of all?"

"Bless the child," said Susan, "how do you make out that would be any kind of a punishment for that wicked fiend?"

"Don't you see," said Bruce, looking levelly at Susan, out of his blackly blue eyes, "if he was turned into a good man he would understand how dreadful the things he has done are, and he would feel so terrible about it that he would be more unhappy and miserable than he could ever be in any other way. He would feel just awful--and he would go on feeling like that forever. Yes"--Bruce clenched his hands and nodded his head emphatically, "yes, I would make the Kaiser a good man--that is what I would do--it would serve him 'zackly right."


Turning a 'wicked fiend' into a good man. Is this what I am trying to do?

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Getting mad now.

..Turning a 'wicked fiend' into a good man. Is this what I am trying to do?

Not in Plan B your not, your preserving what love you had, your not trying to do anything to him except ignore him.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/14/11 10:05 PM
Well, I emailed you about this, but in case there are some lurkers out there following along wondering the same thing, DO NOT RESPOND TO IT IN ANY WAY.

There was an incident I had a few weeks ago, or so, where my WH texted my house phone twice at 830am. My DS11 answered, believing it was his dad calling him, and then he heard the robot voice. He didn't listen to it and hung up. A part of me is really curious what was said in those texts, but I believe that they weren't even meant for THIS house. I think they were probably meant for OW. Sometimes those little aliens that control their minds get a little screwy. Happened when I was in Plan A, so why not in Plan B too.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/14/11 10:07 PM
Wisdom and sense, thanks guys!
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/14/11 10:19 PM
Indie, I spent yesterday reading your thread, and congratulations on your strength and wisdom in not listening to that text!!! He is just trying to pull your strings. I am only new to Plan B, by no means an expert but wanted to offer some encouragement.

Stay strong, stay resolved, you deserve that and you can control that!
You struck a chord with me with that Quote from the book. Revelation of who we are, can be so painful we run away from it our whole lives. Sometimes just little things, sometimes big ones, but as the Good Book says, "We hide in the darkness"

The drastic personality sides of my late wife, we so extreme, that she thought in terms of "Good or Bad" and did not leave room for the grey area between. The words recovering would scare her because they included the possibility of maybe and maybe of possiby

Oh crap that song "forgiveness" by Don Henley came on..tears..lol. Well if nothing else I am honest and transparent. roflmao.

By the time my WW was passing away, even though I would have sold my soul to again restore her health and us, I know she had lost all ability to forgive herself, or even grasp the understanding of what had happened to her, and recover physically. She had lost the grace, and the ability for repentance, because the emotions had taken completly over and drove her for years. If she had returned to the sharp and aware person she used to be, she would have been a prospect for an institution, it would have scared her so bad.

All of her identity was built from believing she was protected from the fears of her past, and the consequences she saw in her family, by faith in Christ. But she stopped short there, because she never allowed herself to be human, and therefore didn't see her weaknesses, or agree to get help with the very dangerous ones, like denial.

Brass outward appearence and statements masked the fear and indecision underneath, and set her up for failure, as she battled valiently like Don Quixiote, exhausting herself emotionally. She said what she knew in conviction was true about Gods love, but was not disciplined in waiting, like the rest of us. I had to for years constantly remind her, that everything that was put in her lap to deal with, all the unfairness and pain and fear she suffered as a child, was covered by God, and that was enough. She was pumped up to even it up, and to her God would give her the very things that meant nothing in the Kingdom. Temporal power, money, reputation and fame.

She was like those who were waiting for a Messiah to come conquer the world and make them royal and raise them above all the others who judged her. She did not see he already came and leveled the field, and that the truth was nobody was better than another, judgement was satisfied.

I had to come to the understanding, that my WW had gone so far that she would never return, and inside she was tortured, by herself, and I viewed her coming death as mercy. She would never forgive herself, and her facultys were gone. But I would have stood by her in all of it, and help her get peace, one step at a time, if God had spared her. I was just waiting for her to come back, and was worn out with the struggle, so many years and so much had happened, so much destroyed that we would never get back. I was broken and physically broken too, with a church that was little support for me, and who allowed her to treat herself like crap, but did not have the respect for her to kick her butt, well now it was too late. But you could not pay me to do anything different than to stay and fight for her. That determination is my weakness and also my strength. Thats how that works too.

If you only knew how many times I would have let her go, except that in every case, she would be heading towards death, because she was an alcoholic. If she would only go to AA, get a grip on herself,and love herself and take care of herself, then as Dr H says, we could have tried healing the marriage at that point. But That was the problem, running away in denial, acting like she was large and in charge, and not taking accountability for the bills she racked up, the people she used or hurt. I would have let her go, to find her own way, a better man more suited to her, even a shiester or a conman who tied her up and dragged her to betty ford clinic, where she could meet the stars and rub elbows with them as a bennie. AT least she would be alive, but she had me because I would not turn her away while she was sick, not the mother of my children, not the woman I used to know. The guilt was strong in me.

But it would have been the best thing I could have done, like I did years ago. which brought her back for a partial recovery, that had such hope in it, if we had followed all the instincts I knew we should have, against the guidance of her church, and made her go to AA. When she fell again of the wagon, I should have ended it and insisted on AA. It probably would have ended the marriage, and thier is no gaurantee, but maybe she would have gotten treatment, and still be alive.

Is it possible that I loved and protected her too much? In this case I guess I did. That question might never be answered and I can't be sure I could have done anything, but that is over now, and life goes on.

The little boy was right, making him a good man of conscience would have been the best choice as it would be turning him over to the conscience which would have tortured him, until he submitted it to another authority. Kaiser if he could experience all the pain of others who he killed in his own drive from fear towards power, and their familys, would probably wish for death, to stop the pain. would he ever come back to the place where he tried to justify his past because his sins were like scarlett? Probably if ever given the power again, but not if he was a good man and did not lean on his own understanding, and saw things from the point of eternity, in objectivity. Yes the bible, the only book that can kill someone, and thank God when it does.

He wants you to get mad Indie, its all he has left to control you, and he thinks that it means you still love him. In a way its true, but its only because you still have some balance in your love bank, and he is fast dwindling the balance, because he doesn't know the difference from negative attention and positive, he just is getting a reaction. Every time he does this it will take away some of it, but because he is selfish and wayward, attention is attention to him, he is [censored] of the walk, master of his universe, and it is getting smaller and smaller as you know.

As far as changing him goes, let God handle it. You don't want to have to be his conscience too do you? You need someone whole and ready to be your husband. If he decides to come back as that man, you need him to prove it also.

Deserve? I leave that up to you. We have to work for what we want, and we get ripped off some of the time, it doesn't mean we have to let it happen without a fight, or go back to that establishment either.

You will be fine, don't let him bait you
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/18/11 07:18 PM
Softlad's cousin in Ireland has just facebooked me, wanting to know if theres any news.

So I told him all the news about me! But I dont think thats what he meant...he will probably come back and specify news about SL

What I tell him will probably get relayed to all the Irish relatives, who are quite close to Softlad

The cousin and SL are particularly close and speak regularly so he should know whats happening. On the other hand he's quite sharp and if softlad is lying and fogbabbling he will want my side to see how it tallys.

SL could also be keeping everyone at arms length, just not communicating with them.

Am I ok to tell the cousin about my blocking all contact? That would probably lead to other q's such as am I finished with him..

I am thinking of replying as follows:

Hi, no I haven't heard anything about him but I am purposefully keeping myself out of it.

I told SL he wouldnt be allowed to speak to me until he ended contact with OW forever. He has a way of getting in touch with me through a third party and he hasnt yet agreed to do that.

I am also asking people not to tell me any news about him, so I don't even know if he is still in the country.

By the way, if you do hear anything about him, dont tell me. I need to concentrate on healing myself and it holds me back.


What do you think.....?
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/18/11 09:10 PM
Until the vets get here with comments, just thought I would say I like it... actually, this is almost word for word what I have planned to say to some mutual friends. I am learning it is a very important part of healing ourselves in Plan B to not hear anything about WH... even hearing that someone else has had contact with him sends me into a spin, as some part of me is desperate for information. Better to just be upfront with those people to not mention WH around you, which your reply would do.

Good luck and hope the vets shed more light on it for you!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/18/11 09:21 PM
Cheers. Im feeling good about your Plan B too, think you're on to a winner. You're already sounding stronger.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/18/11 10:34 PM
He might just honestly have wanted to know what was happening with me. Its really hard actually, because people walk on eggshells about it. I would rather people just asked outright, theres nothing to be scared of!!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/18/11 11:59 PM
I often just tell people the truths that if they passed it on to WH I wouldn't care. I tell people that I am hurting the kids are hurting and that I would truly reconcile with my WH if he ended his A and was repentant. I don't talk poorly about him(except to some close friends whom I vent to). I figure that everything I say or type is going to wind up on WHs lap, so I say just enough.

It is a juggling act for sure. Follow your instincts though you have really good ones. hug
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/19/11 12:20 AM
I learned from the master.........
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/19/11 12:36 AM
And I learned from many masters. Isn't MB great?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/19/11 11:25 PM
Ok I want to clear up an important omission about something Ive posted on here, because I feel it's deceptive.

I didnt spell this out for myself until posting to someone in a similar situation....

Originally Posted by indiegirl
One thing I keep coming back to is there was a time when I was on the brink of my own EA.

At the time I was on a course that involved spending all day every day with the same group of people. I became very close to them, and felt they were important to me, although funnily enough I am no longer in contact with any of them!

One in particlar seemed to admire me a great deal, though nothing inappropriate was ever said or done. It was mostly 'looking' if that makes sense. The flattery was overpowering, but it didnt make me happy at all. It made very anxious and worried.

I knew that I wouldnt find him attractive if I was single. I knew it was only a reflection of problems at home. I knew it was shallow. But knowing these things seemed to make no difference to the pull I felt. It was horrible, like a rip tide that I was ashamed to call for help with.

I felt if I didn't unburden myself soon, I would go mad. I actually think if this peson had been a bit more overt or predatory, I would have spoken to him about it. That would have led to a discussion about feelings - and bang - full blown EA.

In my case, luckily he was actually very careful not to overstep any bounds. I dont credit him with any nobility on this point though. I think he was a bit immature, wanted to have a no-pressure crush and selfishly enjoyed my reactions.

This left me talking to my sis, but this didnt help.

I ended up being forced into the only option left - talking to my H as Dr Harley recommends in his policy of radical honesty. (though this was long before ever hearing of it) He was angry, sure, but the months and years that followed were better than any of our earliest courtship days, it made us very close.


The truth is, I wasn't radically honest. I told him WHAT had happened but never told my h WHO the person in q was.

I said: "I think we are having problems because I have started having feelings for someone. I am too flattered by his atention and I think he notices".

But I didnt tell him who. I said it didnt matter because the person in q hadnt so much as said anything flirty or done anything wrong and that it was just a reflection of OUR problem!!!

How foggy is that!!!!!

I told him there was incoming enemy fire, but not what direction to defend in.

He then went about finding out who for himself, and he did figure it out. For a while there though, he must have seen enemies everywhere - when I left the house to go anywhere he must have been wondering who I was going to see.

I can only hope that being halfway honest was reassuring to him.

I think the worst thing was that I set a terrible example that it is ok to be secretive when you are afraid of certain consequences.

I think I feared a showdown of some description between them, which is crazy as nothing of the sort happened.

I wish I had done better
frown
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/19/11 11:29 PM
Quote
I think I feared a showdown of some description between them, which is crazy as nothing of the sort happened.

I wish I had done better
Don't beat yourself up about this, sweetie. Now you know differently. You thought you were doing the right thing at the time.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/19/11 11:35 PM
I do, thanks.

I am starting to get to the point where I want to sing MB gospel from the hills!!!

SOOOO many people are starting to confide in me about infidelity type stuff after exposure...

But dont tell anyone!! they whisper

Then they refuse my advice!! pray
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/20/11 12:57 AM
The right thing isn't often the easy thing to do. I too had the beginnings of an online EA at a time before my WH fell down the trap. I remember defending this "friendship" and choosing it over my WH. I was slipping down that slippery slope, and I even admitted to my WH shortly before I found MB that had this OM been local, I may have entered PA territory. The thing that stopped me? I had a dream that OM was the devil. He was coming to take my soul. Now keep in mind, I think of myself as a very spiritual person, but not very religious, so this was hard to take. But, I decided, when I awoke from that very dream, that OM was BAD NEWS and I needed to stay away. He was SMOOTH and he was a predator. I realized that soon after I ended contact, but boy while you are in there, the fog sure is thick.

There have been times in people's lives where they didn't know better, this was a time for me. You recognize your own weaknesses which is GREAT because you can't shore up your faults without first recognizing them.

As my dad often says, "When you know better, do better."

One of the reasons that I was certain that I would be able to forgive my WH if he asked for that chance, was that I KNEW that I had it in me too, and I couldn't condemn someone for a fault that I too had. It's true that I stopped myself, but who knows what could have happened.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/20/11 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
One of the reasons that I was certain that I would be able to forgive my WH if he asked for that chance, was that I KNEW that I had it in me too, and I couldn't condemn someone for a fault that I too had.


I feel just the same way. I came close too.
Posted By: heartfelt_1 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/20/11 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
The truth is, I wasn't radically honest. I told him WHAT had happened but never told my h WHO the person in q was.

I said: "I think we are having problems because I have started having feelings for someone. I am too flattered by his atention and I think he notices".

But I didnt tell him who. I said it didnt matter because the person in q hadnt so much as said anything flirty or done anything wrong and that it was just a reflection of OUR problem!!!

How foggy is that!!!!!

I told him there was incoming enemy fire, but not what direction to defend in.

He then went about finding out who for himself, and he did figure it out. For a while there though, he must have seen enemies everywhere - when I left the house to go anywhere he must have been wondering who I was going to see.

I can only hope that being halfway honest was reassuring to him.

I think the worst thing was that I set a terrible example that it is ok to be secretive when you are afraid of certain consequences.

I think I feared a showdown of some description between them, which is crazy as nothing of the sort happened.

I wish I had done better

thanks, indie, for this. obviously MB has been working wonders for you. hurray i would like to join you. smile
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Scotland
One of the reasons that I was certain that I would be able to forgive my WH if he asked for that chance, was that I KNEW that I had it in me too, and I couldn't condemn someone for a fault that I too had.


I feel just the same way. I came close too.

It just goes to show you Dr Hs words of wisdom. "If you think you could never have an affair you are more likely to be the victim of one"

Being aware of your feelings, and knowing when your mind is having these thoughts, is part of being real and honest in your relationship. I remember in my first marraige talking to my W, and telling her everything, even how at times I was attracted to other women, but I knew it was not real and it still bothered me that it happened. It was all about the times we were in and lack of proper support for each of us for marriage, and our immaturity.

She was allready flirtatios and had a tendency to lie and manipulate, and I was searching for a level of communication to deal with these things above the board, because I would not give into that place that ruins all the marriages, compromise. But she held back communicating openly with the same kind of conviction, which eventually lead to her waywardness.

I don't judge her to harshly, because we did not have guidance, but I know I was more seriously dedicated to the marriage than she was, that I know to be true. For 30 years I have been in a Limbo never really understanding what was wrong, getting glimpses of what marrige could be with second W but not covering all the areas where we needed to, and untill I found MB I really just 'Sorta" had definition. But in a second even more challanging marriage I still had more of a bond than with the first one, because at one time we were really doing well.

Coming here has brought a lot of light, and also the convictions I had about marriage have been realized to be true, and acceptance of the past mistakes are giving me peace.

Like the above poster said, don't beat yourself up for the past, and now that we know better was the only way to do better isn't it?
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/21/11 02:27 AM
Hey gurl,

If you can take another load...Mel is helping newbie kuran (?), but she sounds like you. No shrinking violet...:)
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/21/11 02:28 AM
Korenzer...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/21/11 06:01 PM
Ah thanks! Will take a looksie
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/22/11 11:53 AM
Just wondering how the following fits into Plan B

Had a letting agent round my house this morning, thinks they can get a renter in here no problem.

So I need to get moving with applying for a new mortgage in my name - and seing how much softlad will accept for the house.

Now - in my art of war way - I am thinking of really low balling him with how much I m prepared to pay for his share of the house.

But will my giving a ridiculously low offer turn me back into a common enemy and help strengthen the affair?

I just think I should go after as much money as I can get off him, taking advantage of the guilt and the situation hes in where hes paying for a house he cant live in....
Posted By: mason Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/22/11 12:21 PM
My husband is paying for a house he can not live in and I am taking advantage of the guilt as well, he dropped an extra 500 in my account for a beach vacation with my boys he can not go on.... I do not think the $$ take care of the guilt. They have to live with it.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/22/11 01:49 PM
Protecting yourself financially and getting things separate are part of Plan B so I don't see it as a problem. There's just going to need to be a little creative working with you and your I.M. So there isn't too much back and forth with you and him. How woukd this effect what he would be paying for your other living expenses and have you prepared for that? Just weigh out all of your options and choose what would benefit YOU the most. I'll back you whatever you choose.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/24/11 07:06 PM
Weeped a little weep today, but not bad.

Ive been feeling pretty good for a while and today I had a nurse's appointment. I just asked her for some advice on how to go about getting screened for STDs, the chat we had all went well.

But walking outside I felt impossibly weepy for the first time in a while now.

I dont think I have anything to worry about, he stopped sleeping with me a while back, though you never now.

I suppose Im not used to being screwed over by men. Ive been engaged since I was 18 and am used to feeling protected, like no one that close to me would ever put me in the line of something dangerous. And that just isnt true any more.

Any way the little weep was over with in ten minutes, so cant complain

I am thinking about my time scale for divorce as I am healing q rapidly all things considered.

I still think December is a good time line as I doubt I will have any love left for him at this rate.

But really, perhaps I just dont want to think of myself being still in limbo, come the new year.

A naughty part of me also wants him to 'react' to the D, by waking out of his fog, which cant be correct thinking.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/24/11 09:15 PM
Indie, you really are doing so well and are an inspiration to me (and I am sure many others) as to where I want to get to. And as you have said to me, it is better to let the tears out rather then bottle it up, you are still grieving and something like an STD chat is a big trigger.

It HURTS that the person who promised to love and protect you, someone you likely would have trusted as the last person to ever cause you harm, has put you in this position where not only has he now caused you to question the risk to your physical health, but your emotional. I am still struggling to come to terms with this, and think this is my current hurdle; I just can't equate the man I married with the WH who is betraying me in this way. I have also thought about the STD check and admire your taking care of yourself, it is something I have put on backburner for the minute but do intend to do it.

And wanting him to react to the divorce... you are human. I was hoping WH would react to Plan B, but we need to remember that it is our expectations that cause us the pain when the WH fails to live up to them. Better to have no expectations and protect ourselves from further hurt. I know... easier said then done.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/25/11 11:02 PM
Thanks Cari,

I also had a little weep when I went to bed!

I know you will appreciate when I say this crying a month into Plan B, is totally different to withdrawal crying.

Withdrawal crying has sharp edges. Everything hurts in withdrawal actually. People being happy, people talking to you. Getting up etc.

This type of crying was more comforting and soon done with - you're headed to a much better place i promise.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/25/11 11:05 PM
Me and my sister were having a little chat tonight about finances. We worked out that if I can get a tenant in here I will be doing pretty well. I can afford to go back to school next year even without it.

The problem is SL will most likely refuse to take what I can afford to give him.

If for no other reason, than to make life difficult. She also seems to think he would refuse to let me give it out to a renter and want to live here if I wasn't going to.

I cant go to school and make the bills by myself. I cant do the cruise ship work either if I have to stake out home turf.

Her advice was to remain firm on the amount I can afford. If he refuses, put the house up for sale and not to accept current low prices. Hold out for what it should be worth.

She doesnt think it would sell, even at the low price its valued at the moment.

She thinks I should let him get tired of paying the mortgage on a house he cant live in and then offer him the money again.

I think shes been reading my art of war.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/28/11 10:42 PM
What do people think about changing FB status?

Went to a family party tonight, lots of people hadnt heard what had happened and so asked where SL was...

This was fine, I dont mind talking about it - but I could tell some people felt a bit uncomfortable asking about him then being caught off guard by my reply

Thinking of changing my FB status from 'married' to 'separated' but not sure how I am supposed to present myself socially while in Plan B, aside from keeping high boundaries with men...

I mean, I am separated - but I am also married!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/28/11 10:56 PM
I changed my FB status to "separated" when I was ready.

You are going to find that you will need to do this as you see others whom don't know yet. It will suck. It's just the way it is. 20 months in, and I am still bumping into people who ask me about my WH. That's one of the first things they say. this is usually how it goes.

"Hey Scotty, how are you? How is WH?" I usually say, "I don't know, maybe you could ask his mistress." Done with a SMILE. Then I say, "He left us Dec 2009, and lives with her." They usually say, "I'm sorry." I then say, "It's okay, you didn't do it." Then we catch up on things. It's a bit of a set back whenever it happens, but not too bad.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/28/11 11:03 PM
I think Ill go for it then - I do feel ready
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/30/11 08:23 PM
Today was rubbish. Felt really low and depressed. I couldnt figure it out because I had felt so well balanced for so long.. Did I expect him to be pleading with my IM while holding an NC letter by this point? Maybe. But I genuinely thought I had been feeling zen.

Have been crying all day.

I could just put it down to a rainy Tuesday and the end of the bank holiday weekend!

Tomorrow I have a 9am appointment with a solicitor who is going to walk me through my options with the house and finance. I am hoping this will give me back some much needed energy and spirit.

Resentment got a grip of me today. I was just thinking of all the really needless twists of the knife he and she did during the A.

It was more than just being 'stabbed in the back'

For two years, I was in a corner of the room, bleeding from their attack. While I was too delirious to realise I was near death, they were needlessly cruel.

Not only did they not call an ambulance (honesty), but they wandered over to kick me in the head every so often (gaslighting), just to make sure that I couldnt help myself either. While insulting me (actually insulting me).

I am not going to pull the D trigger out of resentment. But only because I know the rollercoaster does not work that way. That it will not help

If I had a choice, I would D him right now. If I could delete my feelings for him, knowing they would never haunt me again. I would totally do it.

Unfortunately I am more human than that.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Today was rubbish. Felt really low and depressed. I couldnt figure it out because I had felt so well balanced for so long.. Did I expect him to be pleading with my IM while holding an NC letter by this point? Maybe. But I genuinely thought I had been feeling zen.

Have been crying all day.

I could just put it down to a rainy Tuesday and the end of the bank holiday weekend!

Tomorrow I have a 9am appointment with a solicitor who is going to walk me through my options with the house and finance. I am hoping this will give me back some much needed energy and spirit.

Resentment got a grip of me today. I was just thinking of all the really needless twists of the knife he and she did during the A.

It was more than just being 'stabbed in the back'

For two years, I was in a corner of the room, bleeding from their attack. While I was too delirious to realise I was near death, they were needlessly cruel.

Not only did they not call an ambulance (honesty), but they wandered over to kick me in the head every so often (gaslighting), just to make sure that I couldnt help myself either. While insulting me (actually insulting me).

I am not going to pull the D trigger out of resentment. But only because I know the rollercoaster does not work that way. That it will not help

If I had a choice, I would D him right now. If I could delete my feelings for him, knowing they would never haunt me again. I would totally do it.

Unfortunately I am more human than that.

So go do something that requires your concentration, maybe go work out untill you drop.

You have painted a good picture of the betrayal, as they are vicious in nature, under all the the bullcrap. Now go wash it out of your mind. You don't need such thoughts

Makes me think of what we do in shock..Sometimes we do what is right, and then later it effects us.

Hang in there Indie.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/30/11 09:29 PM
For the past couple of days, I have been feeling a bit low too. Come here and vent, and know that someone is watching, and reading(even if no one is posting). We ALL understand it. We've all been there.

I look at these low days as a way to move further down the road to personal recovery. It means that love for our WH is getting tucked further and further back. You know that in a day, an hour or maybe even a few mins, you could actually be missing him. You already know it will get better, so I will just offer you a HUG. hug

Take what you need from this sad day, and move forward.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/30/11 09:43 PM
Yes CP, wash day for the soul is comin'

Amazingly though today is so bad, it still is not anywhere near as bad as withdrawal!!

Truly the only way is up.....

Scotty, hugs back. hug

and to all who are paying dearly for wisdom they never ordered with their very heart-blood, hugs galore...

hug hug hug hug hug hug hug hug hug hug



Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/30/11 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Yes CP, wash day for the soul is comin'

Amazingly though today is so bad, it still is not anywhere near as bad as withdrawal!!

Truly the only way is up.....

Scotty, hugs back. hug

and to all who are paying dearly for wisdom they never ordered with their very heart-blood, hugs galore...

hug hug hug hug hug hug hug hug hug hug

Right back at ya Indie!
Originally Posted by indiegirl
..There's a few people on here actually whose original thread I have looked for and havent been able to find.

Which is prob a good thing - as that leaves time for sleep!

Got this from the rants thread.

Some people don't have an original thread, ussually that means they are not looking for help, or advice, and are lurking sorta. sometimes of course you have people like me, who are not in a state of emergency, but love the site and MB principles. Then you see different topics of disscussion they have started, but its hard to distinguish what they would call "thier" thread. Which makes it hard to to post something specifically to them if you want to avoid jacking someone elses.

You can try left clicking thier name, picking "veiw posts", and then on that page, click "topics created, and then pick the oldest one created. Thats the best bet besides just asking 'em on someones thread.

By reason of creation, I call this their original.... Silly me lol

Just in case you can't sleep and need some MB some night think
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/11 01:56 PM
Saw a solicitor today and she basically said I would need to get a divorce to make any transactions regarding the house legal.

I could get him to sign over the house to me, pay him, but if we later divorce, its still considered half his.

She said another option is to 'leave things' for a time as the house is and will still be half mine in due course and his pension will continue to add up, presumably.

(This doenst fit in with my plans to rent out the house though)

She says its also a concern that I dont know enough about his finances. She said I could have a stake in his pension, for example, but I know nothing about how much etc.

She said coming to an amicable agreement about finances first is best, because that will save on legal fees.

Once I have the agreement, I can go right ahead and D him to 'rubberstamp' it.

However she says if he does not co-operate they can mediate, or else take it to court, which would be very expensive. I think I can call his bluff on that score though.

I think first and foremost, I need the information regarding his finaces.

To do that I am probably best searching the computer's history to get his passwords etc. Then when I know what Im dealing with, get him to agree to whatever I think is best.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/11 02:07 PM
Quote
Saw a solicitor today and she basically said I would need to get a divorce to make any transactions regarding the house legal.

I could get him to sign over the house to me, pay him, but if we later divorce, its still considered half his.
indie, double-check with your solicitor on this. You shouldn't need to divorce if he's willing to sign all the sales documents. Then you can just split the proceeds. I'm assuming he'd be willing, if he's willing to sign the house over to you.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/11 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
indie, double-check with your solicitor on this. You shouldn't need to divorce if he's willing to sign all the sales documents. Then you can just split the proceeds. I'm assuming he'd be willing, if he's willing to sign the house over to you.


No I dont want to sell the house. We wouldnt get full value for it now and I want a renter in here to fund my return to education. Plus if I make him an offer now when the value is lower, I wont have to pay him as much for it. Assuming he will go for it, I havent approached him and have no idea what he will do.

Anyway the plot thickens. A letter came here with his name on it. I have no idea why I opened it, as I shouldnt have, but when I did the main letter was adressed to us both.

Its from a finance company - there is a secured loan on the house. He took one out in 2002 and I co-signed. It was after a tough year, plus some of his debts before we married and was supposed to be paid off in five years! It should be ancient history, but no.

Anyway they told me the balance is ļæ½18k -

18k is about what we would both get if we sold the house today at market value after paying off the mortgage.

I was only going to offer him something like 5 or 10, because its ready cash and he wont have to pay to any estate agent fees.

Plus, because the loan matures in 2019 there'll be additional charges to pay it off early. This money should come solely from his half - but legally it will halve my share too. I feel sick...

And all this time he's been having annual boys holidays in vegas

I need to snoop hard and email this solicitor the new info.

I cant believe it. The d***head freeloader.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/11 06:44 PM
This is impossible. I dont understand half the techie stuff I have to do to install spyware.

When I try, it asks me to uninstall my antivirus software first. Then i get asked for the admin password to do that! Which I dont have because he set everything up.

Will try posting on OI forum

And maybe I will order a credit report for the address - hopefully will have better luck with that...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/11 08:53 PM
Just fired off some emails to solicitors for advice.

I sent emails to three firms, so I could compare their advice and costs.

I have a feeling I am going to have to request all his info through a solicitor and fight it out. Or do mediation, hopefully.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/11 09:08 PM
Oh my, SO annoyed and angry.

In some ways, finding out about this is worse than D-Day! How messed up is that?!!!

If he came back, hat in hand, it would mean he didnt think he was in love with her anymore.

But this - we would still have this huge debt over our heads no matter HOW sorry he was.

And if there is no recovery, I am still liable for the debt!!

Thankyou softlad, thankyou.

I suppose it is possible that - "This too, shall pass".
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/11 09:13 PM
Indie, I wanna let you know, I AM here, I AM reading, and I support you 100%.

Got some stuff going on, and I believe it would taint my comments right now, so I am staying off.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/11 09:20 PM
I appreciate Scott, I know lots of people are reading along...

Any solicitors out there? or hitmen?

KIDDING. I think.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/11 09:29 PM
I think you have come up with a WINNING business idea there. Hitmen solicitors. We should copywrite that. grin

Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/11 10:15 PM
Oh Indie, I just had a solicitor's appointment as well and am now sucking up the reality of impending divorce. I will second Scotland, I am listening and reading even when I don't post.

And hitmen solicitors... think I might just go google that!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/11 10:42 PM
Yes do, let me know!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/01/11 02:17 AM
Just managed to crack the admin password - yay!

Ran IEpassord but disappointing - only found usernames....

Try again tomorrow..
Originally Posted by Scotland
I think you have come up with a WINNING business idea there. Hitmen solicitors. We should copywrite that. grin

Hitmen Solicitors would be killing each other or themselves probably. Wow.

Seriuosly though, what would be do without the great Lawyers?
Abe Lincoln for example, and many more who attempt to bring us to an understanding of the law.

Why do we need them? Why do we need limits? Why can't I have everything when I want it and that guy over theres stuff too? You know those questions lawyers answer to the population that is to dense to realize or live with others equally or fairly.

Just something I felt compelled to comment on Indie lol, now where were we?

Been following you all day, and rooting for you
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/01/11 11:48 AM
Hurting vey badly today. Just had a crying fit and I need to go to work now.

There isnt a part of my life he hasnt ransacked for his own selfish greed.

He has betrayed me physically, emotionally, mentally and financially.

On purpose - for our whole marriage.

What more can he do? A FR? That would really be the cherry.

He is a conman. I am trying to think whether I can still contemplate recovery.

I veer between thinking he is pathetic, lost, desperate or just plain old calculating.

Am I at the end of my love bank? Maybe

I know I could stipulate a post nup etc in my EPs - but I am just now thinking - whats the point? I dont hate him, I just feel like an idiot who never really knew him or what he was capable of.

Even if I walk away with less money than I thought i had, maybe this truth needs to be recognised as riches.
Posted By: Tanam Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/01/11 12:33 PM
Hi Indie

FWIW it seems that he is more pathetic, lost and a loser than deliberately calculating.

But it also seems that he has emptied you out in more ways than one, a recovery from this point seems to be more about you than your M.

SL has dug himself a huge hole and currently bystanders can only see the spade! Breathe, do some stuff for you and tomorrow as Scarlett said is another day.

Try Citizens Advice re the financial things, they may be able to help, must be one near you.

Blessings
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/01/11 07:39 PM
So I spoke to a few solicitors today, they all seemed to agree it was a serious situation but that things could be done.

I am meeting with a few of them next week. They all seem good but I want to compare their fees.

It is still possible that he will agree it is his debt - not ours - as he originally told me. But that's expecting a lot of a wayward.

I may end up in mediation - sitting across a table from him. That's going to upset Plan B, isnt it?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/01/11 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Tanam
Breathe, do some stuff for you and tomorrow as Scarlett said is another day.


Yes!! After all tomorrow IS another day! (love Scarlett)

just made arrangements to go to a concert with friends so feeling happier (gradually)
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/01/11 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So I spoke to a few solicitors today, they all seemed to agree it was a serious situation but that things could be done.

I am meeting with a few of them next week. They all seem good but I want to compare their fees.

It is still possible that he will agree it is his debt - not ours - as he originally told me. But that's expecting a lot of a wayward.

I may end up in mediation - sitting across a table from him. That's going to upset Plan B, isnt it?

Indie, hard as what you are going through is, you have a strategy, whereas it seems SL is totally lost and destroying all that was of value to him in his life. At the minute the OW is a bandaid for this , and who knows how long the bandaid will last. The thing is, it sounds as though the extent of the injuries he has inflicted on himself aren't going to be healed by any bandaid measure in the long term. You, on the other hand, are healing, take comfort in that. Sure, there may be a scar to remind you of the pain, but you will be healthy and whole.

I can't predict what will happen about his taking responsibility for the debt, I admit I would not hold a lot of trust in him either but life is full of suprises. What is important is that you are taking steps to protect yourself with the solicitor appointments.

If mediation does prove necessary, my brother and his XWW (admittedly in Australia) ended up doing it over the phone by teleconferencing. You may have other options rather then breaking Plan B. Something you can explore if it comes to that...

Now enjoy your weekend (though sadly I am still hoping for wet and cold weather for the UK so my WH is miserable grin). Maybe see a movie if my hexing works... meanwhile I'd better get back to stirring my cauldron!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/01/11 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Caracal
Indie, hard as what you are going through is, you have a strategy, whereas it seems SL is totally lost


Yes, this is art of war - 'The general who makes many calculations before the battle will have victory'
I have faith in Sun Tzu, if not in softlad!

Originally Posted by Caracal
. At the minute the OW is a bandaid for this , and who knows how long the bandaid will last. The thing is, it sounds as though the extent of the injuries he has inflicted on himself aren't going to be healed by any bandaid measure in the long term. You, on the other hand, are healing, take comfort in that. Sure, there may be a scar to remind you of the pain, but you will be healthy and whole.

Yes, it is surprising how quickly I have dusted myself off with this one. Because I am doing right and all I can, I suppose. Dragging him into non amicable divorce to protect myself should also shake out some fog.

I realise now that his distance and sleeplessness were down to the debt. Not being honest with me drove a huge wedge in the way of us. My very presence must have made him feel guilty. He had the gift of a loving wife in his home, who would have worked out anything with him, and he fogged himself into believing me an enemy. The silly sod now has replaced me with a snake. It is only a matter of time before she bites him.

Originally Posted by Caracal
Now enjoy your weekend (though sadly I am still hoping for wet and cold weather for the UK so my WH is miserable grin). Maybe see a movie if my hexing works... meanwhile I'd better get back to stirring my cauldron!


I am actually working this weekend - without getting any overtime (part of plan me is getting a new job) so I want it to rain too. We can co-ordinate our rain dances. Not that the dance is usually required here in damp old Blighty.

I am still considering reconcilliation. I cant believe it. The bar has got a lot, lot higher with this latest discovery - but if he did everything necessary and was repentant enough - maybe.

This is a question I keep asking myself over and over. So I will put it to you wise MBers....

Am I completely crazy??!!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/01/11 11:39 PM
Well you two can have the rain that they are calling for here, cuz I wanna take the boys to the drive in, and it would be easier to see the screen without having to use the windshield wipers. laugh

You can let your solicitor know that your GOAL is to NOT see Softlad. Maybe you can just sit in a different room, and your solicitor can go into the room with Softlad. Let him/her know that this is a plan that you are doing that was recommended by a Doctor who specializes in helping people recover from affairs.

Hopefully, you could manage it without any actual contact with Softlad.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/02/11 12:20 AM
Quote
This is a question I keep asking myself over and over. So I will put it to you wise MBers....

Am I completely crazy??!!

I wouldn't consider myself wise just yet, but here is a novice's answer until the vets comment.

Crazy... well, if honouring and respecting the vows you made to each other is crazy maybe so. I would call it having integrity, self-respect and commitment. Crazy is what is going on in planet of the waywards, where all of these values are missing.

But neither would you be "crazy" to decide reconciliation is no longer possible, that the bar has not only been raised to impossibly high standards due to SL's betrayal, but that you no longer care about where the bar is because of his continued lack of remorse or commitment. Softlad has made choices that got him where he is today, not you, he had the affair and he chose not to be honest or remorseful. Only you can really answer whether you would want reconciliation.

But Indie, I see that you asking the question shows part of you still wants reconciliation. And fair enough... I wish I was at the stage of asking the question, because everything in my being still screams for reconciliation rather then questioning if it is worth it. I would imagine when you stop asking yourself the question, or feel total indifference about the thought of reconciliation, that is when you are "done".

Quote
but if he did everything necessary and was repentant enough - maybe.

To me, a "maybe" shows you are not yet "done". Providing he meets your terms of course wink
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/02/11 12:23 AM
Quote
I am actually working this weekend...so I want it to rain too. We can co-ordinate our rain dances. Not that the dance is usually required here in damp old Blighty.

Here goes!

dance2
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/02/11 02:11 PM
I dont know why this money thing is stil bothering me. I cant pinpoint what it is.

Uncertainty about what I will get

uncertaintly about who he is.

I just keep telling myself his dishonesty and financial stupidity are HIS problem.

I have high boundaries and legal advice

He has no plan.

So why am I feeling tortured?
Because it really hurts us when our spouses act so independently and thoughtlessly. You married him and united yourself to him, thinking that he would have the same thoughtfulness toward you as you did to him.

His poor choices both in finances and in his morals affect you very much. Hopefully, you will get good legal counsel and can avoid having to take on his debts. But you know you are living your life with integrity. In all the grief, you are living well.

I admire your strength and fortitude very much.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/02/11 09:30 PM
I think he was a freeloader/renter but had himself/me convinced he was a buyer...


Do freeloaders ever change?
Good question, but we have to let them earn there way someday.

I have sorta kicked my two boys out, after the two year anii of my wives death, and when I knew they were able to act like young men. One had a great job but no money discipline, and kept pushing all his anx on me. The other was just plain stuck in limbo.

Its not how I dreamed my boys would leave home, but we still are close, but not as familiar. When you are faced with providing for yourself, and the crappiness of people out there sometimes, you grow up pretty quick. The sorrow of the families loss was deafening, and they had to let me go too, because I was/am a basket case in comparison to who I used to be.

But freeloading, a lack of personal accountability, blaming others for your problems, has a shelf life. Part of plan B is to see if they will come around to the planet earth, and dig in with the rest of us, and take care of it and the ones who inhabit it.

Being alone, has a very good effect on accountability, and all WH can do now is either demonize you for everything,(and get petty too BTW which OW will see), or whine about how it was "OK", to stab you in the back, because after all, the world is full of sleazy people.(Which he is now the King of that realm now).

Either argument is full of holes, and either she sees it already, because she is just playing with him anyways,(she wants what you have), or she will recognize what a weak wimp,(softLad), he is that he dropped you for some desparate scared messed up grieving women who needed some attention, and he took atvantage of her.

My bet is that he will run out of credibility with her, and she will see that he did not wish to give her strength, but rob it from her, all to feed his ego as a KISA.

When that happens, he will be alone, and no excuses anymore. Then he will come crawling back.

At the end of our lives, when we stand before our maker, there will be no blaming others for why we didn't listen to Him first while we were here. In our conscience we know this, and when he ends up alone, maybe he will man up.

Then I hope he will become a buyer, and realize he allready lives here, and do his part.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/03/11 07:40 AM
I realised last night that I am far from being done.

i kept trying to figure out what 'we' would do about the debt if we reconciled!

The bar is sky high now, but anyone with an ounce of sense would jump it to be with ME grin

And I am fine with being with someone who has made mistakes but is able to look them in the eye and fix them.

It is still something of a mystery to me though HOW i can still feel invested.


He had a crazy level of independent behaviour, was financially thoughtless, selfish with his time and money - and was unfaithful to me both physically and emotionally

Dont even get me started on the dishonesty.

He did provide a high level of affection, admiration and interesting conversation for many years. He was 'there for me'. I suppose this is all it takes to make a solid love bank. i just hope I dont still feel like this, and stuck in limbo in two years' time. I cant move on and be with someone else if so. I want to have a family etc.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/03/11 08:49 AM
Indiegirl, you've been through alot with this man, your husband. People can and do change. My husband is living proof of that. You are very wise to recognize that things can never go back to the way they were and to insist that the bar remains high.

Praying.

P.s. And no. You are not crazy!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/03/11 10:24 AM
That means a lot P.meg!

My sis said to me the other day that hope can be damaging.

I respectfully disagree. Knowing that it is possible for him to change wont hurt me.

If he does - I say great
If he doesnt - I say your choice

Plus if he doesnt that will make me more sure than ever. If he can help himself and our marriage but just chooses not to, I am SOOOO much better off.
Thats right Indie, your not crazy, your in that place of change and growth.

You are here with some awesome people to keep you grounded, and in a place you can be sure, you will be supported in reality also.

Your allready a sharp young lady,but in matters like this, where your ship gets really beat up, its good to have a solid place to take harbor for awhile.

This time is an important time for growth and change, we change in the valleys.

That rejection you feel, and the smallness that comes with it, bonds to us also, and becomes part of our life. You can probably remember times when you and SoftLad went through things terrible together, sadness, loss, or even times of bitter conflict right?

We know that SoftLad quit and ran, was tempted by his softhead and ego, and missed out on this test, and traded it for some fantasy high.

But he doesn't see he is going backward, while you are going forward, in maturity and life.

Theres a line from Billy Joels song, "Scenes from an Italian restaurant" That I think of when I think of couples who get together and don't "plan on", the tough times. I will give you a couple stanzas.. Its a ballad and pretty sad song but the point can be made in this part.

_______________________
They got an apartment with deep
Pile carpet
And a couple of paintings from Sears
A big waterbed that they bought
With the bread
They had saved for a couple
Of years
They started to fight when the
Money got tight
And they just didn't count on
The tears.


____________________

Tears and sadness will come in this life. Those that run away screaming in denial can find all kinds of safe havens they think for awhile,(Such as Softboy did when he felt his KISA instints kick in when he started hanging around with Black Widow, and instead of coming to his senses and restraining himself...).

But those who stay and feel the pain, refuse to buckle to there fight or flight, get the richness of life, with all of its suffering also.

When I decided to return to my WW in 1989, a statement struck me from "The road less traveled", a book by Scott Peck,(If youve never read it I suggest it). He said that when children know that you will stick by them through any pain, they are secure that they were loved and in themselves. I thought at that time, even though I was gone for two years allready, and knew my messed up wife caused me so much pain, that she might drag me down again, of my children.

What would they go through? Who would be there for them? Even though she didn't have control of her faculities, and walked on the edge of disaster with her Alcoholism, she did live in fear that they would suffer. I created 2 lives with her, and i was responsible for her and those two lives, whatever it took. That thought was the only sure reason I went back, the rest was only hope for a good recovery. It took a little more than that to get me back, and a little more time. If we only had a plan like MB and the support from people like we have here.

Why do you still feel connected? Because you are and allways will be in some way. A Pastor freind of mine, when he was talking about his lost daughter to a car accident, still looking like he was in shock said, "You never completly stop missing them, you learn how to deal with it and keep going". He said that to me at my late wives funeral.

Those of us who accept the pain and loss, and realize its gravity, are the ones that experience life to its fullest. You will make it through this, and come out stronger on the other side. More complete, more mature, and a deeper person for it. You will still feel some pity on him, but what a man needs is respect, and that he is losing. The loss shall not bite so deeply, and the connection will not be as strong to him in time.

Keep that bar high, he needs it also, even if he doesn't jump up to it, it is his only hope. If there is going to be any recovery, you will both have to go through this, not around it, and if there is none than he will remember that beautiful wife that he blew it with, or he will spin down into a pit.

Loving people who don't love you back sucks, but you can do it from plan B, and it gets clearer all the time. Remember you are the strong one in this and keep taking good care of yourself, we are all pulling for you.



Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/03/11 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
You will still feel some pity on him, but what a man needs is respect, and that he is losing. The loss shall not bite so deeply, and the connection will not be as strong to him in time.


Bingo. I'm not interested in being anyone's mummy. I need a strong man who can look others in the eye and say: 'I was selfish. It was really wrong'

And I have had numerous renter moments in the past myself. The pain has seared all my weak points up in that respect. So I have changed. I will never sacrifice myself and do something I am not enthusiastic about ever again. I will never expect someone to sacrifice for me.

I am actually glad about the debt today! I am glad because it caused the bar to be raised up where it needed to be. I am glad because I have found the ROOT of the problem.

If he came back it would be under strict conditions of transparency and he would need to take responsibility for the debt. My sis suggeted that as well as a post-nup that I insist on taking control of paying all bills.

I am actually thanking my stars now that he got hostile with me on D-day and left so I could go into Plan B. I have really needed this space to figure out whats necessary for this marriage to work, and on whats necessary for me to bail.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/03/11 12:14 PM
Well details about who pays the bills, etc would be something that would be POJA'd, if you got to recovery.

hug INDIE

I only can offer to you that to feel better, you need to stick to it. I still have moments where I really wish that my WH was home, 20 months later. They aren't often, and I feel much better. There is still a lot of work to do when you are recovering personally.

Have you read Mimi's thread? Queenie's?

Your sister just wants you to be happy, and she sees "moving on" as the best way, believe me, I KNOW because of what people say to ME(about me, of course). People not on MB don't understand what we are doing, and think we should do it the way others have. They don't know that that method doesn't help you recover as well as MB.

You allowed yourself 6 months to evaluate your progress and decide where you want to go from there. That time is not today. Work on healing yourself, and evaluate your feelings at the time.

I feel a lot of pressure of time being placed on yourself. I KNOW that you want children, and that is the main driving force of this pressure, but lay off yourself for a while.

I believe that my WH is my BEST option, but I know that he isn't my only option, for life. That is part of my personal recovery.

You have done so well. You really "get" MB. You're doing great so don't put so much pressure on yourself. You're AWESOME.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/03/11 12:34 PM
Indie - I feel the same pain as you. I would like my WH to return.

Plan B helps me to really look at the marriage Pre-A, and become authentic with me again.

There are so many out there who believe sacrifice is the way to be in a marriage. I was a complete supporter until I read about marriage builders.

I can appreciate Plan B for the growth is allows me inside. It doesn't take away the pain of my four children. I believe I am only holding on for them today.

I had my doctor appointment yesterday. My blood pressure is high. I told her about my life and she clearly understood. I have a lot to think about because my health is number one for my children.

Today I am realizing letting him go and not stressing has to be my focus. I feel I am on a path, yet the path is still dark.

I am following the path without any light. I am not fearful of the dark path, but I do wish to soon see some light.

All I can do today is walk my path in the dark and hopefully soon I will see the light that I know will shine on me. I just need patience, time, and consistency.

God Bless Tough~
Posted By: TTFG Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/03/11 12:45 PM
"I realize I am far from being done" same feelings exactly....you are a great person who is thinking clearly!
Praying also
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/03/11 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Well details about who pays the bills, etc would be something that would be POJA'd, if you got to recovery


I did wonder about that actually

Originally Posted by Scotland
I only can offer to you that to feel better, you need to stick to it.

Have you read Mimi's thread? Queenie's? I KNOW that you want children, and that is the main driving force of this pressure, but lay off yourself for a while.


I can only have faith that Plan B will give me the strength to move on if that is what is needed. Right now I am not ready, just how it is. So there's no point pressurising myself over something that is not under my control. Some things take time.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/03/11 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
"I realize I am far from being done" same feelings exactly....you are a great person who is thinking clearly!
Praying also


This is so appreciated. In some ways my prayers have been answered. For many years I fervently asked to have things made clear to me - to understand what was wrong. Well I know now! Be careful what you wish for...!
Posted By: TTFG Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/03/11 02:08 PM
My I.c. once said be carefull how hard u fight for her if it takes a great fight to win her, you may find out when you win, you get something you don't want.

That is what I like about mb principles they concentrate on me making me the best I can be!! It is a tough rollercoaster to ride though
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/04/11 05:57 PM
Just read Love bank deposits in Plan B - I am so glad for you people!!!!

I really want my love bank to keep pace with the timeline I have imposed - I want to feel 'done' come January, if he has not woken up by then.

Unfortunately, that may not happen. I am taking some tips from the thread though, focusing on myself, being aware that I am love with who I 'thought' he was etc.....

I am hoping that since 'most' affairs end within six months of exposure, this fact will help to freeze the love bank at that deadline.

If softlad is slow on the uptake, do I want him? I hope not.

One thing I will NOT do, is get involved with someone else while it is possible I would accept softlad's repentance,

Letting yourself love two people at one - is just STOOOOPID.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/04/11 05:57 PM
By the way caracal, you must be one helll of a dancer.

The rain yesterday was practically a monsoon!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/04/11 10:45 PM
It rained here, thunder and ALL, at 4am. I decided since I wasn't sleeping, I would read. Then, the rain stopped, and I kept reading. Wasn't good, cuz I had to get up to go to work, and now I am going to take the kiddos to see 4 movies at the drivein. Maybe I'll take a nap during the kid's movie. grin

That thread really helped me too.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/06/11 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
By the way caracal, you must be one helll of a dancer.

The rain yesterday was practically a monsoon!

And I didn't even have my dancing shoes on... wink

I had a weekend of 20'C sunshine, spring has arrived.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/06/11 10:12 PM
the rain and wind are shakin my house - but i am content

I am having my own sort of spring...

I just bet Caracal your WH and OW are locked in some tiny london flat bickering for all they're worth!!!

Serves the aliens right imo...
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/06/11 10:23 PM
Love that thought Indie (in a guilty way as it is not very Plan B). Having a rough week, so the thought of WH (in his wellies, lol) and OW having some arguments gives me comfort.

Glad to hear you are content, how is "spring"?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/06/11 10:29 PM
Been thinking about the legal definitions of marriage etc today....

I have been walking my sis through POJA and UA time recently

She isnt legally married but they have two young kids and one on the way.

In lots of ways they have more of a buyers relationship, than me and softlad ever did...

however I have started to nag her gently to think in more of an MB way.... She is tryng to POJA tonight

Might even get her to post, but not sure if i should since she isnt married ...

Then theres my impending divorce......

It may be that I have to divorce softlad to protect myself financially.

It may be that I have to do this before I am really ready to let him go.

I had this plan in mind where the divorce would herald my willingness to date again.

Now I am just going to have to 'decide' one day when I am spiritually divorced

And I dont like that. I like things to be clearer cut and for everyone to know where they stand.

Plus I am afraid it will legitimise the evil relationship with blackwidow if we are divorced.

I do NOT want that.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/07/11 03:38 PM
Indie:

{{{{{{{{{{Indie}}}}}}}}}}}}

Such hard, hard, hard decisions to deal with. I know you have a warrior's heart, but that fighting the good fight can be tiring and spiritually draining.

I sense your Art of War attitude coming through when you talk about protecting yourself financially, about achieving a "spiritual" divorce and having things "clearer cut."

And should softlad and blackwidow remain together, a divorce will NEVER, EVER -- EVER!!!! -- legitimize it. And perhaps they deserve each other, cheating cretins that they are!
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/07/11 03:43 PM
Indie:

I just nabbed this quote from gloveoil in another post, and I LOVE how it frames how we should think of the OW/OM (I have changed genders and nicknames):

GLOVEOIL: Think of (BLACKWIDOW) as she really is. So you think BLACKWIDOW was some basically decent, gentle, passionate woman who just wanted & deserved to be understood & appreciated, huh? Yeah, I know... I've been there. But actually, BLACKWIDOW IS willing to sabotage the marriage of a woman, a friend's in fact, who'd never done her any wrong. Think about THAT. How is THAT reflective of decency, gentleness, or being deserving of understanding? Rather, it was figuratively akin to ambushing you from behind, beating you up, breaking your ribs & knocking out your teeth, then stealing your wallet while you lie there moaning & bleeding on the dirty pavement. BLACKWIDOW is a marriage-mugger, with the character of a thug. Until (if or when) she realizes the full wrongness of what she's done, she is & will be a thug, character-wise. How can you justify wasting one moment of your precious time on this earth thinking of that thug?"
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/07/11 06:41 PM
Sweetpea - you are scary. That quote of Glove oils was running around my head all day today because it reminded me so much of blackwidow....

Ok, I know it is really tempting to put all the blame on the OP and not on the WS, so I have tried to resist doing this, but really she is a thug and marriage mugger!

I have SEEN her face get all thuggerish when she doenstget her way

It's her MO, really, she's never had a guy who volunteered for the job... They've all been hit over the head in dark alleys and dragged into her lair.

Her late husband was the sweetest guy imaginable. But kind of a pushover with the girls. He fell in love with every girlfriend and wanted to marry each one.

Except her. Honestly she had to bully him into moving in with her and she practically told him when to propose.

I never understood why he went along with it and I understand even less why softlad is doing it.

He was aghast at the way she railroaded his mate and controlled him. He thought it was awful and he thought she was a monster - he hated her.

Wow I would just love to jump in a time machine, go back and talk to my REAL husband and tell him just how stupid he gets in a few short years....

Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/07/11 06:52 PM
That quote of Glove oils was running around my head all day today because it reminded me so much of blackwidow....

Great minds think alike, I love to say!

thuggerish face: Exactly. It takes two, and she certainly sounds like a piece of work. UGH! My fantasies of late are that I encounter the AP. She's a piece of whorishly dressed and garishly made-up trailer trash, and I would LOVE to tell her that when my FWH decided to wallow in the garbage he picked the perfect slut to do it with. But I'm sure I'd be all mumblemouthed if I ever did see her. smile

"He was aghast at the way she railroaded his mate and controlled him. He thought it was awful and he thought she was a monster - he hated her."

Maybe, just maybe he'll see the light ... or rather the black, as in her black heart. Is it OK to discuss this kind of a possibility with you in Plan B, from a MB perspective? I know you're not supposed to talk about him in the real world. ... Just don't want to cause you any extra pain.

(sorry about not using the quote thing, but i got message saying i can't quote more than 4 messages deep. Have zero clue what that means. smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/07/11 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
Is it OK to discuss this kind of a possibility with you in Plan B, from a MB perspective? I know you're not supposed to talk about him in the real world. ... Just don't want to cause you any extra pain.


I think so. I do talk about him, I just dont let people tell me any 'news' of him.

Putting aside the morality of their relationship - they are horribly incompatible. Theres no way they could make it work. They are both way too hot headed and angry. They would clash on a daily basis if they had anything like a 'real' relationship.

In some ways I worry my exposure was too good, because to escape small town shame they may keep the affair on the quiet. This keeps it in happy-fun-land for longer in some ways. I would prefer they would try living together as that would last about a WEEK.

Im not worried about them ending up together at all. The idea is laughable.

It's more a case of how long they can keep the fantasy going - and whether he will be too selfish to do recovery even if it does fall to bits...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/07/11 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Caracal
Love that thought Indie (in a guilty way as it is not very Plan B). Having a rough week, so the thought of WH (in his wellies, lol) and OW having some arguments gives me comfort.

Glad to hear you are content, how is "spring"?


Well, it's an English spring which means essentially that there are some moody days, but so many promising green shoots and new life just waiting to begin....
Originally Posted by indiegirl
..It's her MO, really, she's never had a guy who volunteered for the job... They've all been hit over the head in dark alleys and dragged into her lair.

Her late husband was the sweetest guy imaginable. But kind of a pushover with the girls. He fell in love with every girlfriend and wanted to marry each one.

Except her. Honestly she had to bully him into moving in with her and she practically told him when to propose.

I never understood why he went along with it and I understand even less why softlad is doing it...

How by the way DID he late husband die? Thinking about,"Three bottles of Relish" by E. A. Poe now..

Kinda Kathy Bates in "Misery" now isn't it?

I was stalked by one of the types you are describing, because she could not handle the rejection, when I would not be with her. She wanted to be in control, and liked dangerous dramatic control relationships. Well "liked" might have not been the word, commpelled might have been.

Came to my house wherever I was and threw stones at the windows trying to get me kicked out if I would not reply...tried to hang herself...seduced a friend of mine because she was mad at me, and even went to my W house to find me, and call me out in front of W....(Edit to add: W knew of OW but was shocked to see her there, and handled it quite well, seeing how W was over a foot taller and had 50 lbs on her, and was not afraid to swat her)

Panicing control freak.. thats what she is,,likely as soon as she is certain she has him completly, she will start to get sick of him, and unless WH likes to lick boots, trouble will start..God she sounds like a joke, a pathetic and scary one though

Seriuosly though, what happened to her late Husband?
Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
.(sorry about not using the quote thing, but i got message saying i can't quote more than 4 messages deep. Have zero clue what that means. smile

It prolly
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
.(sorry about not using the quote thing, but i got message saying i can't quote more than 4 messages deep. Have zero clue what that means. smile

It prolly

means
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
.(sorry about not using the quote thing, but i got message saying i can't quote more than 4 messages deep. Have zero clue what that means. smile

It prolly

means

This is..
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 12:07 AM
Well trouble will be beginning in crappyland if it hasn't already begun.

Just remember Indie this cardinal rule of affairs...When you truly go dark and they are no longer fighting against you, or against the world, and all the hullaballoo dies down, they will begin to see reality.

Once reality sets in and you are no longer around to fire a bullet here or there into the affair, they will have NO NEED to do the hysterical bonding (which has kept them together probably from her husbands' death I am thinking)to fight YOU. Nothing for them to prove then. Nobody to be "us against the world" about if you know what I mean.

Then the affair dies. When SL has to divide assets and you aren't around to have an arguement with, GUESS WHO HE WILL VENT ABOUT the divorce and his lack of money to? The skankho.

When she burns his favorite dinner that you used to make him and you're no longer around to cook it just perfectly, GUESS WHO HE WILL VENT AT? The skankho.

When one quiet day, his real emotions begin to rise to the surface and he faces the ONE THING ALL WAYWARDS DO NOT THINK THEY WILL FEEL...and I am talking about grief from losing you (the affair partners never want one word uttered about the xw or xh), HE WILL LOSE IT WITH HER AND BEGIN TO BLAME HER for the divorce.

The blame game and the arguements will begin and the affair will implode THE FURTHER AWAY YOU DISTANCE YOURSELF from the affair.

This truly works. You leave the sinners to their own devices and it simply implodes.

Happened to Darth. You do not create the bullets they can use to fire back at you. When you are truly not there in any sense of the word for a little bit longer, it will begin to crumble. The hysterical bonding ends. The "us versus them" bonding dies. The affair finally will hit the REALITY phase and if they didn't feel the light of day upon them, they will soon. And they will see how ugly they have become as people.

Hang in there. You will decide what you want to do when you alone find that answer. SL may never wake up. Or he might. But we know one thing they don't. And that it is that the skankho black widows' days with your wh is DOOMED!!!
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
.(sorry about not using the quote thing, but i got message saying i can't quote more than 4 messages deep. Have zero clue what that means. smile

It prolly

means

This is..

The deepest you can quote...lets see...
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
[quote=ConstantProcess][quote=ConstantProcess][quote=ConstantProcess][quote=sweetpea2011].(sorry about not using the quote thing, but i got message saying i can't quote more than 4 messages deep. Have zero clue what that means. smile

It prolly
means
This is..
The deepest you can quote...lets see...


Ok did it work?


....Nope got this "
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Thats good to know
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Seriuosly though, what happened to her late Husband?


It was an industrial accident that happened when she was miles away. Much as I would love to pin it on her...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by peachyisback
Well trouble will be beginning in crappyland if it hasn't already begun.

rotflmao
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 12:43 AM
Originally Posted by peachyisback
Once reality sets in and you are no longer around to fire a bullet here or there into the affair, they will have NO NEED to do the hysterical bonding (which has kept them together probably from her husbands' death I am thinking)to fight YOU. Nothing for them to prove then. Nobody to be "us against the world" about if you know what I mean.


This is very interesting

Originally Posted by peachyisback
When one quiet day, his real emotions begin to rise to the surface and he faces the ONE THING ALL WAYWARDS DO NOT THINK THEY WILL FEEL...and I am talking about grief from losing you (the affair partners never want one word uttered about the xw or xh), HE WILL LOSE IT WITH HER AND BEGIN TO BLAME HER for the divorce.

The blame game and the arguements will begin and the affair will implode THE FURTHER AWAY YOU DISTANCE YOURSELF from the affair. But we know one thing they don't. And that it is that the skankho black widows' days with your wh is DOOMED!!!


This will give me sweet dreams tonight!!!

I have a q for you peachy, if you dont mind. Did you Plan B? It sounds like you did from what you say about the A imploding. Did you decide you were done inside Plan B or did you come out to take a look?
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 08:05 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Then theres my impending divorce......

It may be that I have to divorce softlad to protect myself financially.

It may be that I have to do this before I am really ready to let him go.

I had this plan in mind where the divorce would herald my willingness to date again.

Now I am just going to have to 'decide' one day when I am spiritually divorced

And I dont like that. I like things to be clearer cut and for everyone to know where they stand.

Plus I am afraid it will legitimise the evil relationship with blackwidow if we are divorced.

I do NOT want that.

You are facing some difficult decisions, having to weigh up what is best for you on many different levels. Hugs Indie.

What is the law regarding divorce and adultery in UK? I am relieved that in Aus no matter what you have to be separated for 12 months before application can be made. So I don't even have to consider the D word just yet (though have been investigating how many hurdles I can put up for WH in art of war style!) In true husband style (I have always handled finances and paperwork) he blabbered about getting a divorce as quick as possible after exposure, but has since gone silent... guess he finally researched something! I quite enjoy thinking about THAT facial expression when he realised he was going to have to live with the label of cheater for a year!

But Indie, as much as they lie to others and themselves, I think it is rare for WS to legitimise the affair relationship in their own minds under all of the fog... I was speaking with my brother about affairs on Tuesday, and he said his XWW STILL can't look him in the eye, having divorced four years ago. Now this was one of the WW's who could compete in MB's Hall of Fame (or should it be Shame?) She is still without remorse, in the fog (and still wayward with the OM), blames my brother for all of the evils of the world. But still can't look the betrayed in the eye... I believe guilt, even subconscious, actually especially subconsious, can stay for life... especially if the guilty party has never shown remorse.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 08:36 AM
Quote
I would prefer they would try living together as that would last about a WEEK.
I have had this exact same thought! One of my friends looked at me crazy-like when I said it... I don't know if WH is living with OW or not, but I HOPE so. Try living with a suspected 23-year-old OW who loves horses (and my real husband has always disliked horses and the thought of riding or pouring money into such an animal) It just ain't gonna work out... but dating... now that makes the excitement last that much longer as the illusion of who the wayward thinks the OW is can be sustained for sooo much longer.

I dated my real husband for 6 years before marrying (and we didn't live together) and our first year of marriage was a real eye opener for both of us... something we used to look back on and laugh. If WH is living with OW... who is laughing now? smirk
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 09:17 AM
Quote
Well trouble will be beginning in crappyland if it hasn't already begun.

Just remember Indie this cardinal rule of affairs...When you truly go dark and they are no longer fighting against you, or against the world, and all the hullaballoo dies down, they will begin to see reality.

Once reality sets in and you are no longer around to fire a bullet here or there into the affair, they will have NO NEED to do the hysterical bonding (which has kept them together probably from her husbands' death I am thinking)to fight YOU. Nothing for them to prove then. Nobody to be "us against the world" about if you know what I mean.

Peachy, this is really interesting, as I had tended to think that in Plan B I was absolving my WH of guilt in some sense and just letting him have the cake he wanted. Imagining life is bliss in affairland. Your take really strikes home to me, especially as WH actually said to me that during most of our marriage he felt it was "us against the world" but no longer felt that... at the time this was prior to D Day, but I can now see that he had made the comparison of feeling OW was the "us against the world" now. Your version gives a different perspective I had not considered. I like it!

Quote
When one quiet day, his real emotions begin to rise to the surface and he faces the ONE THING ALL WAYWARDS DO NOT THINK THEY WILL FEEL...and I am talking about grief from losing you (the affair partners never want one word uttered about the xw or xh), HE WILL LOSE IT WITH HER AND BEGIN TO BLAME HER for the divorce.

The blame game and the arguements will begin and the affair will implode THE FURTHER AWAY YOU DISTANCE YOURSELF from the affair.

This truly works. You leave the sinners to their own devices and it simply implodes.

WS feeling grief about losing BS... again, I hope this is the case. I had assumed only the BS felt the grief as clearly WS is the one who could choose to re-enter the marriage after Plan B letter. I have often questioned how WH could not feel some grief given our long relationship and his saying we are best friends regardless. Aahhh, Peachy, you have given a perspective that every Plan B'er longs for...
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I have a q for you peachy, if you dont mind. Did you Plan B? It sounds like you did from what you say about the A imploding. Did you decide you were done inside Plan B or did you come out to take a look?

Indie, sorry for the T/Jing. And I second your question to peachy. So peachy, tell us about your Plan B???
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 06:46 PM
No problem Caracal, yours and my situations are so similar that T/Jing is impossible!

Today is AWFUL. I went to see two solicitors this morning and that will teach me to bite off more than I can chew at once.

Still, the sooner I get things done and moving the better I suppose.

I really like each solicitor I met with and heard some great ideas. They were talking about softlad like the enemy, of course. That's what I want. I want an Art of War type solicitor but nevertheless.....

He never used to be my enemy frown

Anyway its sent my mood into the dark place. Bad crying. When I was at work I had a feeling I've had before at funerals. It's like when you;re asked to do a reading, so you can't cry until you're done with it. Then you cry buckets.

I am trying to feel glad that I have good solicitors to choose from. I am sure that will come - after a bath and some sleep!

Not sure which solicitor to choose as they were all very different.

Empathetic one who made me feel really comfortable. Was matter of fact re divorce proceedings. not as experienced as the others. Seemed to have good instincts though.

Tough-talking super organised pitbull who was dead set on giving the bad news i.e. telling me worst-case stuff. surprisingly reasonable rates

Tough-talking pitbull who is very pricey, seems to have great ideas but is also super busy.

They all said separating things financially requires me to file for divorce. However I can string out finalising the divorce if I want to.

From what I've heard, sitting down in a room with him to mediate stuff HAS to happen. I think this bit might be responsible for the tears.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 06:52 PM
Ask whoever you choose about mediating from separate rooms in the same building.
Staggering arrivals and departures to not run into each other physically.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 06:55 PM
Hopefully that could be done.

I am strong enough to be around him and get the job done I would just really really really rather not.
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 08:26 PM
Ok. My plan B should have come far far earlier than it did. Back n the day, I was told to do a longer plan A and I did. It was almost the emotional death of me. I couldn't do it anymore.

Plan B happened when my xwh (then wh) had a huge fit of rage one evening and he pushed me down. I ended up calling the police, he left, and I made my decision to not only go plan B, but to file for divorce.

I had a friend of mine (a neighbor) be my IM for several months. By the time the 6 months mark of B hit, (and Darth fought this like mad. He did not want me to go NC on him b/c he is one who feeds off of narcissistic supply and needs that admiration and attention. He would try to break B all the time. A few times he did. And I would go back to B (maybe this happened 3x?) because it would hurt me. When it became clear he was not changing, I actually had to re-file for divorce again (didn't have him served the 1st time) as I tried to wait things out to see if the affair would die on its own.

One day I got a call that he had been DUMPED by monkeyho (my attorney had apparently told her she would be deposed (this was after I refiled in a few months later). So he broke plan B one day and he came over to tell me this. He was so so sad! He however, laid a huge bomb on me that day. He told me that he had been seeing monkeyho AND somebody else for a while (that would be Ms. Family Values..the stb wistress) but that because of all of my legal doings, and because I had subpoenae'd monkeyho's testimony, she dumped him. And then he wailed to me that he DIDN'T WANT TO be with really either of them, but that I had blown it with him. (crazy wayward)because of the supboena, the exposure, my letting the clients know what he had done, etc.

Just typical crazy wayward stuff. He went on and on and told me how we COULD have gotten back together, but that I had caused SOMETHING really bad to happen. Me? What did I cause? I wasn't even around him. He was living elsewhere, in a bachelor pad. Complete with swimming pool even.

He told me that monkeyho would never see him again, and that it served him right. And that MY stupid actions caused him to have TO BE WITH THE OTHER OW whom I didn't know much about at all. I was like ????there's another ow? And then he told me...SHE GOT PREGNANT. Apparently he came over to tell me I CAUSED THE OW TO GET PREGNANT. WTF????? banghead

I went back to plan B and never spoke to him. All I said to him that day was "leave..I will never see you again. Remember this day. It is finally over."

So I went back to plan D and B and continued forward with the divorce. When it was finally final, she was weeks away (posow) from giving birth.

It took months to finally be able to analyze the stupidity of that day speaking with Darth one last time. I am not sure if it was a pseudo confessional with him that day or why he came over.

I guess it was to tell me the ow was pregnant. In the end, we surmised (my sister and my friends) that monkeyho found out he had tried 2x to get me back (before I went into plan B) and that he had cheated on her with the other ow. Call me a woman who's been on MB too long, but my hunch was he had an affair d day with BOTH ow, getting caught by both and that was really why monkeyho dumped him and that all along Ms. Family Values (aka the wistress) had PLANNED to get herself pregnant to get him all to herself.

I remember being so numb. Not even aware there was a SECOND ow during my plan B. When I heard the word, "pregnant", I was DONE. Stick a fork in me.

But Darth wasn't happy to have to deal with that. He DIDN'T really want either ow. Nope. He was addicted to attention and admiration and would have done anything to get his fix. He also refused to allow me to be the only source of his admiration and wouldn't commit to following the MB program at all. So I had to do what I had to do.

But the nail in the coffin was finding out ow2 was pregnant. And I was so repulsed by him after that day that truthfully, if he had NOT married ow2 (the pregnant wistress) I would have still divorced him.

Towards the end of the divorce proceedings, I laxed a bit on plan B. It morphed somewhat into what I called, Plan F/U. I didn't give him any attention. He was used to by that time, me only communicating via IM and when my IM couldn't do it, I just did what she did. But didn't have that filter. By then I didn't care anymore much anyway.

I would only communicate with him via text or email. No phone calls. ZERO contact as much as possible. Sure he'd try to put himself directly in my path as much as he could, but I avoided him about 99 percent of the time. It DID get easier, although divorce rips your heart out.

So how do I know what went on after divorce? He would send these wierd emails to me and occasionally I'd be weak (like every few months) and read the drivel rather than just hit the delete button. But everything I told you about how the affairage and his two affairs went is just how it was.

Some here might remember, but I used to actually work with Darth for a few years, running part of his earlier company. I will not forget this one..and neither do my x coworkers either! I was at work at the clinic where I'd gotten a job (thank you college degree!) and the practice mgr calls me to say "hey Peachy..there's a really handsome guy all dressed up to see you. He's wearing a suit in the waiting room." I knew who it had to be and said, "Make him WAIT."

Ten minutes later I came out and he was standing there and told me how PROUD he was of me (this was about 1 yr post divorce) going back to my chosen profession, how I'd gotten a good job, and blah blah blah. I had spoken of him so little that my coworkers were surprised to know that was even my xh. They thought he might have been just some guy who wanted to ask me out. Right there, in the waiting room, he says next this. "Peach, I need you. I mean business-wise I need you. You were so great at how you used to manage the sales arm of the company. I am prepared to give you today, right here, a contract for $135k a year. You set your own hours. You come and go as you please. You can work around our sons' school time. But please come back to work with me. I won't bother you at all. You can be on another floor if you like. You can pick out whatever you want for office furniture."

I simply replied to him, "Hell no. I cannot work with somebody I do not trust. Good day." And I walked off.

I have been through it all. Crazy stuff with that man. But you will hit a point when it just all seems like stuff you're OVER.

One day you will realize how stupid his affair really is, how it is just the stupidest thing he ever did and you won't hurt as much anymore. Whether he comes back after it implodes is up to you.

I chose NOT to want him back when it imploded. Plus he was married and like I even told HIM, "Darth, I don't date married guys ok? Not unless I'm married TO them".

Let the waywards have their own devices right now. Let their negativity work against each other. Stay far far out of their affair. It will fizzle. Like leaving a opened can or bottle of coca cola out in the kitchen. It will fizzle. And you decide at that time what will happen. THE WAYWARD DOES NOT GET A SAY. If and when (they usually do) try to come back, you get to make the choice. So stand strong.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 08:45 PM
Peachy is my heroine. Love ya Peach.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 09:17 PM
That is one hell of a Plan B you did, peachy! hurray
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 10:10 PM
Nah. It had SERIOUS FLAWS. Serious. I was by far not a perfect plan B'er. I only had the IM for several months.

It was simply plan survival. Plan "be a mom". Plan "take care of the situation".

But it wasn't easy. For about four or five mos. between court appearances when the D was moving forward but not final, he would quit paying any cs or meager ss. And it would be like living on ramen noodles (for me) but buying whatever my child needed. He ruined my credit during such a short time period. He sure did. You have no idea what all happened. It was a truly insane part of my life. Sometimes I wonder how the heck did I even get thru that? Sometimes I wonder (it's about 7 yrs post)wow..I LIVED THRU THAT????

Actually I kinda think all of you are quite amazing. Hence why I'm still here after all this time (albeit a short break for a few years).
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 10:16 PM
Things to remember:

Originally Posted by peachyisback
"Make him WAIT."


Originally Posted by peachyisback
I simply replied to him, "Hell no. I cannot work with somebody I do not trust. Good day." And I walked off.


If I ever move into Plan FU, softlad will be just too easy to mess with after following the Peachyplan.

Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/08/11 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by peachyisback
Let the waywards have their own devices right now. Let their negativity work against each other. Stay far far out of their affair. It will fizzle. Like leaving a opened can or bottle of coca cola out in the kitchen. It will fizzle. And you decide at that time what will happen. THE WAYWARD DOES NOT GET A SAY. If and when (they usually do) try to come back, you get to make the choice. So stand strong.

Love it Peachy! Your Plan B AND your attitude.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/09/11 07:57 PM
I cant believe how low I rolled on the coaster ride yesterday.

Fellow Plan B'ers - beware.

Just because you start being all cool and confident, don't get cocky.

Don't take on too much work, keep planning nice treats, be nice to yourself at ALL times

It keeps the wolves from the door.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/09/11 08:57 PM
You're doing great Indie.

As long as you stuck to Plan B, it was a good Plan B day.

Days like those are few and far between. My biggest thing was figuring out what set it off. Figure that out, and understand what happened. If it was avoidable, then just get back on the horse. If there was something that you DID, then fix it, and don't do it again.

This is a good reason to look into Lawyers, and all of that before entering Plan B(if you can) so it doesn't affect you as much later.

Don't worry, you are doing a superb job, keep it up.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/11/11 06:23 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I cant believe how low I rolled on the coaster ride yesterday.

Fellow Plan B'ers - beware.

Just because you start being all cool and confident, don't get cocky.

Don't take on too much work, keep planning nice treats, be nice to yourself at ALL times

It keeps the wolves from the door.
Indie, I hope the weekend has been an up for you. With some sunshine?

And thanks for the tip fellow Plan B'er. By coincidence I just went and bought myself a box of chocolates as a treat. Those little indulgences sure are important...
Hang in there Indie. Yeah we remain human, and still can be effected. Just keep using those MB weightlifter
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/12/11 07:06 PM
Another weird day in B land.

I feel nothing for him today, which is kind of scary. Ive been staying with my parents a couple of days so that I had company through the sad patch I went through.

Im back home now, but the past few days of not being in our marital home seemed to make a difference. Being around people who really love me and can't do enough for me also makes a difference.

Ive tried to tease out my feelings a bit. I tried to imagine him coming home with the exact right attitude. With a look in his eyes that I used to find nourishing.

Nothing.


I know by now that Plan B feelings can be very temporary, but this feels so strange.

Plus Im not sure what I am supposed to do about it.. Should I get my old love letters from him out in a bid to promt feelings and 'conserve my love' for him?

Do I plan a life without him and do more of this stuff.. stay at my parents more and maybe look at moving out...?

I dont know but it is surprising seeing how devastated I was just the other day!
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/12/11 07:16 PM
You plan a life without him and do more stuff and enjoy the ups of the roller coaster ride
cause the swoops back to feeling devastated will come on their own anyway ..... here and there.

Enjoy the good days! smile

No to looking through stuff to rekindle your love.
Your love is there anyway and it doesn't need to be riled up!
Posted By: InnerStrength Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/12/11 07:27 PM
Indie,

Tough to say.

All we can do is go day to day-the emotional highs and lows seem to flatten out over time.

We can try and tease our feelings but we have gotten good about using our heads!!! We both know that there would have to be a sh#t ton of work on their part to recover our marriages and our brains know this. The love we have for them is still there but we don't call on it because we have no way of expressing it.

Eventually the love that we had will probably leak out and be gone for ever (I could be wrong) and by that time there probably isn't any need to stay in Plan B because we will be numb to our X
's existence.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/12/11 09:58 PM
I was told once on my thread, that you need to think of your love for your WH getting locked inside a safe and only a special combination will work to unlock it.

You know how quickly these feelings can swing so make the most of the highs and remember them during the lows. You're doing GREAT.

I was starting to worry that you had gone off the Plan B wagon and that was the source of your quiet. I am so happy that you had a perfect Plan B weekend and took care of yourself. Keep up the super duper work
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/12/11 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by reading
No to looking through stuff to rekindle your love.
Your love is there anyway and it doesn't need to be riled up!


This is true. I cant feel it, but it must be there. Like sunshine on the other side of the world.

Originally Posted by InnerStrength
Eventually the love that we had will probably leak out and be gone for ever (I could be wrong) and by that time there probably isn't any need to stay in Plan B because we will be numb to our X
's existence.


I think this happens too.

Originally Posted by Scotland
I was told once on my thread, that you need to think of your love for your WH getting locked inside a safe and only a special combination will work to unlock it.


I LOVE this!!! It just makes so much sense to me.

Originally Posted by Scotland
I was starting to worry that you had gone off the Plan B wagon and that was the source of your quiet. I am so happy that you had a perfect Plan B weekend and took care of yourself. Keep up the super duper work


Awww Scot, dont worry. I owe it to myself to do this right. I even owe it to my h in a funny kind of way, not to enable.

I had a GREAT weekend actually. Had today (Monday) off too. Went shopping with my mum, spent way too much money and ate way too much at lunch, it was awesome.

Since I worked the weekend before and will be working next weekend I am grabing opportnities for R&R.

Tomorrow I crack on with university applications and finding a new job.....
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/12/11 10:19 PM
I am so glad to hear it. You are doing so great and your life is going to SHINE. Keep it up.

Sorry about worrying about you I have just seen it too many times around here.
I should remember that you are a woman of strength and conviction. smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/12/11 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Sorry about worrying about you I have just seen it too many times around here.
I should remember that you are a woman of strength and conviction. smile


Dont apologise!!! Having someone worry about me is nice. smile

And anyway isnt that what MB is all about? Being tough on people because we care? Also not letting those people rely on their own strength and conviction because people make mistakes....?

I think not showing 'unconditional trust' in someone's strength applies to friends and fellow MBers as well as to spouses...

For my part, there have been many tempations to go FU, or to just peek down OWs street to see where his car is. I had one today, even though today is a good day.

I have a few things in place to keep me accountable. Coming here is one of them. Her seeing me spying on her in my brightly coloured car is another. So I have banned myself from taking home an anonymous company vehicle....

But mostly its the good example set me by the queen b!!!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/12/11 10:38 PM
Isn't it crazy to have those tmeptations? I got do hard on myself when I would think anything about contacting WH. I would think about what did happen to me when I had those accidental sightings and how it was so NOT worth it. Seems you're a faster learner than I. Good. I need someone else to show off cuz I hate tooting my own horn.

So keep doing a spectacular Plan B and be a great example for those following behind you. Take some of the pressure off. grin
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/12/11 11:15 PM
You two are the plan B Queens!!!

So one question to help you resist the generic company car ride...WHAT COLOR DID YOU PAINT YOUR TOES?

Mine are still hot pink. But a different hue. Brighter! smile
Originally Posted by indiegirl
And anyway isnt that what MB is all about? Being tough on people because we care? Also not letting those people rely on their own strength and conviction because people make mistakes....?

I think not showing 'unconditional trust' in someone's strength applies to friends and fellow MBers as well as to spouses.....

Yeah, see my story on how well we do when we try to handle things like this without support..basically we really mess things up quickly, when we are left to ourselves..

And Ditto on the unconditional trust, and lets add to that unconditional love from humans, and toss sacrifice out the window while we are at it too..

The temptation to be a KISA, or to handle all of our situations without help from outside, is great, because we all want that position from above and being in love can make us feel like we can do it, if we play our cards right, and with some luck, and some money, and....need I go on?

Truth, honesty, commpassion, dedication, appreciation, humility,hard work, grace, all play a part of our adult lives, and the chickens come home to roost even on the best of us dreamers who were willing to bet the farm on an idea. Its the adjustments to reality that show the mature individuals who won't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes dreams get squashed, and people betray you, you just don't let it twist you, so you betray yourself, or your spouse if it comes to that.

We are all learning lessons in life, and going through the fire, that tempers our resolve, to live it with guts and conviction, and for those who run away? They die many times..
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/13/11 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by peachyisback
You two are the plan B Queens!!!

So one question to help you resist the generic company car ride...WHAT COLOR DID YOU PAINT YOUR TOES?

Mine are still hot pink. But a different hue. Brighter! smile


Mine are electric blue today, 'cause Im electric...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/13/11 09:12 PM
I began my evening class today. Have to re-do my maths qualification if I want to go back to uni and eventually teach English (which makes no sense as I have an English degree, but there you have our crazy government)

The people all seem nice. Everyone, except for some really young lads, has a husband and kids at home. They seemed to feel sorry for me when I said I was separated, though I am sure they were just being nice. There was also a happy, chatty, newlywed. She was torture.

Had myself a pity party while driving myself home, so I gave myself a good talking to when I pulled up outside.

I am not simply separated - I have gotten myself out of a terrible situation. I am either on the eve of making my marriage extraordinary, or finding out what single Indie is really like! This could be chapter one of a really great love story which is waiting for me, too.

(though this summary is tricky to tell strangers)

So there, sad voices in my head who wont shut up when they are told.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/13/11 09:14 PM
Electric blue sound AWESOME. Mine are nude becasue I took off the last colour(metallic silver) and I haven't reapplied anything yet. I think I need to get on it since I am still wearing sandals(I don't give them up till it's really COLD). Hmmm blue? Green? RED. Yep red it is. grin
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/13/11 09:18 PM
(((((Indie)))))

How hard that must have been. But you are right, this is but a chapter in your life and you are gonna have one AMAZING story from now on. And you are a survivor. Wooohooo

BTW I am so jealous that you get to go to school and then possibly teach, I would LOVE to do that. smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/13/11 09:23 PM
Itll be a long, hard, expensive slog to get there.

More student loans on top of existing student loans.

But the job I do now, I have taken as far it can go. Plus I only really benefit the company I work for and its shareholders. I want my life's work to make a difference to PEOPLE. Really get involved with them.

I have been volunteering in a school and I love it. I am really excited about it...
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/13/11 09:32 PM
My toenails are khaki color if anyone wants to know.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/13/11 09:34 PM
Oh that's very now. I was thinking of shopping for that!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/13/11 10:01 PM
Crackle is all the rage here right now. I have been thinking about getting some and now that you have all mentioned it, I will. smile
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Itll be a long, hard, expensive slog to get there.

More student loans on top of existing student loans.

But the job I do now, I have taken as far it can go. Plus I only really benefit the company I work for and its shareholders. I want my life's work to make a difference to PEOPLE. Really get involved with them.

I have been volunteering in a school and I love it. I am really excited about it...

Sounds like the perfect plan.

1.You have an aspiration to do something really important, help people use that hat rack between thier ears.
2. You are also somewhere that is inducive to thought, philosphy, growth, and culture. That will help you heal and continue to grow.
3. Lots of opportunity for dating and checking out men if Softlad stays with the Black Widow. Your life can be full and you don't have to be lonely or sad.
4. Lots of mature adults go to full time colledge, and are seriuos students. You fit this catagory perfect because you are allready educated and have learned some pretty heavy lessons in life. You prolly wont be doing a "party school" thing either, lol.

This was my plan before I met second wife also, was going to get bachelors and then move onto law, but late W was not into,"secular" education, and I let myself get caught up in her BS, and listened to her talk, about how I had done so well, and poor me, and how it could be different.......I screwed it up, and of all the women I had a choice of, whom I told what my plans were, to stay single until I had that career I felt I was capable of and needed to fell right for, well she sold me. Good salewomen is all.

Stay with the plan, and I will be getting over my pride and going back to school again also. I have a freind that tells me, "All you want to go to the gym for is so you will look good for women again" MrRollieEyes Well thats just the way it will be, and it has more to do with my health than that, Jeez I am not that shallow..

The same will be what he says about school, "Just want to figure it out and have control"--Church---"Just want to hang around people who want to be good and think they are".

Screw all that negative crap, I will need to learn till I die, and even then I won't know as much as there is to know.

When God closes a door he opens up another one. The Chinese word for crisis is made from the two root words of disaster and opportunity. Im not ready to lay down and die yet, and if God be for me who can be against me?

You go gurl.

I will update my nail color later...
After my H's first bout with adultery, back in 1996, I went back to school, mostly to protect myself in the event that the marriage fell apart.

At the time I was 38 years old and older than some of my professors. Took 4 years of fulltime classes and had no real social life, but I earned my BS in Business/Finance. One of the best things I ever did for myself. My H said he could see me gaining self-confidence as the months passed.

Had to take math classes I never thought I was up to doing but worked really hard and aced even calculus. This from a gal who never got it in high school and missed completely failing algebra with a D-, for effort!

Anyway, an education is a wonderful tool, not only for having leverage to get into a good job, but also for finding out that you can indeed do what you never thought was possible.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/14/11 10:58 PM
My boss wanted me to use my own car to go to a job straight from home today. She said that to make up for the petrol I'd used, I could take a company car home. I was so busy, I just agreed.

Well, It wasnt until I was driving home, a mile from OW's house that I realised I was driving a car totally unfamiliar to her or softlad. And it was nice and dark, so I could drive down her street to snoop undetected if I wanted. Total temptation time.

I made the decision to sneak a peek. I really did decide.

What stopped me I cant really say. Part of it was I would feel compelled to be honest on here and then maybe other Plan Bers would see it and feel that they could cheat too.

The other thing is that, while I still struggle, I am doing so much better. Do I want to set my own recovery back to square one? I just said to myself 'what would I get out of it?' and I had no answer.

But it was close. Certainly no more driving strange cars for me.

I have another little sitch, too. An acquaintance seems taken with me. He looks at me too often and he starts up conversations with me all the time, even though my responses are minimal.

People know that I havent seen my husband in months. I dont wear a ring. Close girlfriends and family members know Im not ready to date, but men dont know that.

So annoying I have to deal with this. I suppose there is little I can do except continue being short with him.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/15/11 12:35 AM
Okay, time for Indie's ring of power to come along. What is that? A ring that you use to replace your wedding band. As soon as that wedding band is off, men think you are fair game. Now, you will still need to deal with people who know your sitch and will want to be your KISA. You need to make sure that you aren't ever with men alone.

Now, about the car thing. OMG I had my mouth open, gaping. I was so worried and I was scared for you. I am so proud of you for not doing it. You get bog KUDOS.

Isn't it funny that you just talked about such a sitch just a few posts ago. No more driving strange cars friend.

I am so happy that you were able to talk yuorself out of it. GREAT JOB.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/15/11 02:43 AM
The car thing....
we realize when the pain outweighs the 'high' of doing something, we don't do it.

YK?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/15/11 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Okay, time for Indie's ring of power to come along. What is that? A ring that you use to replace your wedding band. As soon as that wedding band is off, men think you are fair game.


This is intriguing. Have you done this? What do you say to people who ask why you wear something on that finger?

Wouldnt mind buying myself a little sparkly something!

I keep looking at my hand and at the ring mark on my finger that wont go away - it drives me crazy. It is such a sad little dent...
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/15/11 10:09 PM
I did do this. I was so sad last year when I finally decided to take off the wedding band. I had been wearing it for so many years and an engagement one before that. I had to have somethung on my finger so I decided to get a family ring.

I would definitely suggest that you get a ring that you love and makes you feel good whenever you see it.

Look for something spectacular and sparkley.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/17/11 08:57 PM
I found a lovely sparkler that could be mine come payday!

I am feeling a bit pulled between my house and my parents house. I stayed there last night as I did last weekend. Its as if a few days in my house get me down but then a few days in my parents and im ready to come home.

I think I need to reclaim this house as my own, I think its too triggery.

I do get a bit lonely, so perhaps make more plans with people.

Proper redecorating is out until I know what I am doing with the house long term. But my mum suggested a surface revamp, new accesories, shifting the furntiure around etc.

I can only try!

Another thing I decided was I was thinking of soft lad too much. Not fondly any more, but sort of in a 'picking at the pain scab' sort of way.

So I have mentally banished him, all his cruelties and his issues, to a desert island. Of course it is going to take me some time to get clear from the island, and as I leave I will still get glimpses.

Now whenever I think of him or something nasty he did, I mentally visualise myself motorboating away from his island, towards my own. I have the wind in my hair, I'm smiling - im setting sail for a beach party where all the guests are people I love who are waiting for me.

OW and softlad dont have a boat. They aren't resourceful enough or clever enough. Plus they are not invited. They have nowhere to go. Their island also sucks.

I tried this today and its really worked so far.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/23/11 09:36 PM
Ok, I may be over the worst of this but am going to 'blog' it anyway in case it helps others.

The last few weeks have been great but strange. I dont miss softlad any more.

Take tonight - im in alone. i orderd pizza and chocolate cake. I am totally happy.

I have great plans for the weekend, off to the coast with some girlies for the day tomorrow. I am booking a week somewhere super hot, all inclusive, where they bring you cocktails for Novemeber, with my angel mum. There is perhaps no one better to kick back with.

Perhaps the missing him and sadness will come back. But what is odder is that I cant stop thinking about softlad an his mad, maudlin affair with the widow, but it is happening in a non-sad, neutral way. I just pick over the details like a kid with a scab.

Why? Absolutely no idea. Im boring myself. I have a long commute and I still havent managed to do it without whirring some affair thoughts through my head for the umpteenth time. Its like im processing them looking for an analysis or resolution.

But I have my analysis of the situation. I am working my resolution. So its pointless.

Perhaps I just have to wait until I become so bored of it, I stop thinking about it.

It maybe is part of the whole thing.

Plan B starves the love you have for your WH of oxygen. Particularly as I forbid all tender thoughts of him. This didnt work for ages, but is now easy.

First the anguish goes, then the lesser pain, then the missing him goes. Now I just need to get rid of the thoughts that are looping around. Maybe that is next.
Posted By: mason Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/23/11 10:18 PM
Good Luck, I am alone tonight as well, having a glass of wine. I still think of him everday and about the affair. I wish I coule get to a place that I do not think of them at all. It will come...it will take me alot longer.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/23/11 10:39 PM
I am alone tonight as well. My boys have gone to my mother's for a sleep over with their cousins. I took a nap. I went out and got some dinner, in the pouring rain, with no car. laugh And now, I am going to watch some TV, a couple of movies on NF, and then sleep.

Indie, it is a normal behaviour pattern for us to try to figure out what happened. And it is worse when it is an affair, because we don't understand it all. Also, we are trying to figure out where the lies were, and more importantly, where the truths were. That was one of the hardest things for me, while I was going through with the beginnings of Plan B. I had to let that go. I may never know the full truth.

The missing and thinking about the wayward gets further between. It's all part of the process, so you are right on track. Great work.

Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/25/11 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
But what is odder is that I cant stop thinking about softlad an his mad, maudlin affair with the widow, but it is happening in a non-sad, neutral way. I just pick over the details like a kid with a scab.

Why? Absolutely no idea. Im boring myself. I have a long commute and I still havent managed to do it without whirring some affair thoughts through my head for the umpteenth time. Its like im processing them looking for an analysis or resolution.

But I have my analysis of the situation. I am working my resolution. So its pointless.

Perhaps I just have to wait until I become so bored of it, I stop thinking about it.
Indie, thank you for sharing this. I have been worrying guiltily that I might be the only Plan B'er doing this, but it seems it is all part of the process. And actually, some of this is beneficial to me, as I have been processing what I think the lies were, and what were the truths. For me this has not been soley about the affair, but our marriage. It is important that we as the BS do not allow the wayward to take our happy memories of the marriage when they rewrite it. That we don't become just as foggy as they are.

My WH told me that he had been unhappy in our marriage for five years. Initially I was devestated by this, but then questioned him... we travelled for 2.5 years of the last five, were you miserable on our holidays dear WH? Oh no BW ... not when travelling,I was happy then. So dear WH, you were only unhappy for 2.5 years of the last five, and so you have only been unhappy for the past two months since we just returned from travelling? Poor wayward just gave me the most puzzled look, and moved on to the next reason he was so unhappy.

I hope I process all of my answers soon, and like you, get bored with it. But as long as it is only to a point I really think this is part of the healing. And this is something I doubt the WS does, which means they do not learn and grow for the next relationship. After all, it must be pretty hard when compartmentalizing the BS to actually process where they have gone wrong, whereas I can see my own flaws in the marriage and will work to change them.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/28/11 08:38 PM
Things get better all the time. Had a great time in Blackpool with some girls, my friend (broken engagement due to cheating) introduced me to some friends of hers who had gotten divorced due to an A. We bonded really quickly over our tales of woe!

They hadnt done anything like a Plan B and one of them said it was two years before she felt even remotely better.

We had a girly sleep over, four ladies and two little girls!

I feel pretty good. I came across the text message pic I took as proof of the A, and I felt disgusted, but not upset.

I had a mad moment when online the other night. I wanted to type his name into facebook. It wouldnt have brought anything up as he's blocked, but I still felt an urge to type it.

I told myself I was being stupid and I didnt do it. Thats the only wobble Ive had recently.

My toenails are pink today, in Peachy tribute and my fingernails are deep red. Im booking my holiday at the weekend and going out for dinner with friends tomorrow night.

I am being kind to myself and I sort of like it.

I just need to stop falling asleep on the couch (nasty habit Ive gotten into) and get a new job. there are no jobs anywhere (boo hoo!) but I need to get on that.
Posted By: zoraziyal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/28/11 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
The missing and thinking about the wayward gets further between. It's all part of the process, so you are right on track. Great work.


It does, but it takes a long time. Some days even now, more than 3 years later, I still think about what happened.

I have a friend who's been divorced for at least 10 years who says she thinks of her EXWH even now sometimes.

I'm not sure that it will ever fully go away.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
.They hadnt done anything like a Plan B and one of them said it was two years before she felt even remotely better.

This is one of the reasons MB has become such a lighthouse to me, because two years was also key in my life in those times of recovery in my marraige, and we didn't know of a plan B or MB then either.

Of course if we did, we would have done ALL the steps instead of just some, I am certain of that and our dedication at the time to our marraige. So I am a MBer for life..(Unless God has something better,lol)

Sounds like you had a great time, glad for you and praying life will only get better cool
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/01/11 11:47 AM
Oooooooh so angry.

Got a letter put through the door. I knew it wasnt the postman because the post had already come.

When I went to the door, it was a brown envelope like the kind bills come in, so assumed a neighbour had posted it through.

It was the TV licence bill, which is still in his name. When I went into Plan B I tried to cancel it but couldnt as he set it up. I was told that he had to cancel it and if he wanted to carry on paying the licence for this address he could.

My IM told him months ago to either cancel it or change it to his new address so I could open my own account with them. Its quarterly so there was no hurry.

So on the envelope is written 'Indie will need this as its the house's TV licence. First quarter was paid 1st September' (its his writing)

Also written on the letter (in same writing but different pen)
Indie, TV license for house.

How DARE he pay my bills for me. This isnt his house, he should cancel the license. As if that wasnt enough, he's posting little notes through my door saying 'Look at me, aren't I good for paying a lousy bill?'

I cried, havent done that in weeks. It is just so insulting. He isnt lifting a finger to really BE my husband but he isnt prepared to leave me alone either.

It is just like DDay when he didnt take most of his stuff. To him, I am nothing more than a back up plan.

I am thinking of burning the licence to release some rage!

I dont know how to handle this with my IM.... ignore or request he cancel the licence?

However hes already been told to that and hes not stupid. I think hes just after a reaction.

Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/01/11 07:34 PM
{{{{{{{{{Indie}}}}}}}}}}}

What a crappy thing for him to do. I would tell IM that softie broke contact, and that he has a clear pathway to have full contact: which is to meet the requirements of your plan B letter.

Anything else will be considered harassment? Can you threaten legal action to keep him from contacting you?

Sorry again for the contact. Ugh!
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/01/11 08:44 PM
I would ignore. Just ignore.
You sent a message previously about it and he did what HE wanted to do.

Or, you could tell IM that all messages need to go through them about all things. Period.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/01/11 10:29 PM
Personally, I would ignore it. You're right, Softlad wants a reaction.

Seems like Black Widow may not be meeting all of his EN's... he is either trying to reassure himself that he is still a great guy by paying your bills (and I agree, that would INFURIATE me) or in typical wayward style reaching out misguidedly in the hope he can still have a fantasy divorce. Either way, Black Widow is NOT making him feel as great about himself as he would like... And either way, he is still NOT the man you would want for recovery.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/01/11 11:58 PM
Any other messages that may come, you will need to throw them away without reading them.

Whether you want your IM to send a message to him about NC, that's up to you. Part of me says that you should send a message, but the other part says that you should ignore it. You could give it a day or two and see what you think.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 12:01 AM
Oh, I thought of something else too.

In my case, as in yours, my IM doesn't live close by. I have a place that I send WH's mail(not anymore, but when I needed to). I know that you have somewhere for Softlad to get his mail, maybe you could send a message that any paperwork can be sent to the same place. This person can filter it out for you too then.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Any other messages that may come, you will need to throw them away without reading them.

Whether you want your IM to send a message to him about NC, that's up to you. Part of me says that you should send a message, but the other part says that you should ignore it. You could give it a day or two and see what you think.


Yes, I am in two minds! The annoying thing is I was prepared for a note through the door. Part of me thought he would try that. But to write it on a bill is so sneaky! I will have to watch out in case he tries that again...


Originally Posted by Scotland
Oh, I thought of something else too.

In my case, as in yours, my IM doesn't live close by. I have a place that I send WH's mail(not anymore, but when I needed to). I know that you have somewhere for Softlad to get his mail, maybe you could send a message that any paperwork can be sent to the same place. This person can filter it out for you too then.


This is pure speculation but I think she, WAS approached - or he considered approaching her. The way the messages on the billl are phrased are odd. The first one is about me, the second one to me, and in different ink. This is like wants me to think he sent it to his relative and shes then scribbled a second note to me. Very strange. If he had approached her she would just have said no, she also been good about not telling me things.

Part of me wants to say to him 'Any messages posted through the door will be thrown away unread' But I think silence is more potent. He has been told to redirect his mail - and he still hasnt, which just means he wont get his mail. Consequence.

He has been told to change over the TV licence bill and he hasnt, which just means he will be out of pocket for something he cant benefit from.

Since the law doenst see fit to make him pay me anything for leaving me in this way, Im just going to consider this voluntary spousal support!
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 12:57 AM
"This is pure speculation but I think she, WAS approached..."

Plan B doll. smile
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by Surfer88
"This is pure speculation but I think she, WAS approached..."

Plan B doll. smile

The "She" is WH's cousin, to go-between locally. Just so there is no confusion

Indie, I agree with all of your logic. Good call. laugh
I am with the school of thought that Softie is feeling the pangs of being a quitter on support, and that this is his half-way attempt of trying to maintain his EN of being a "good guy", so to speak.

I totally get the feeling of being insulted, and again another reason to stay as dark as you can, and find a way to stop getting these messages and letters.

Yes, more cake eating, and you should do what you can to stop it Indie.

God Bless
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 02:12 AM
I thought about it and think you should have IM not mention him paying the bill BUT mention that messages need to go through them (IM).

Then, he understands that is stated BUT no mention of the bill paid. LOL.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 08:55 AM
Originally Posted by reading
I thought about it and think you should have IM not mention him paying the bill BUT mention that messages need to go through them (IM).

Then, he understands that is stated BUT no mention of the bill paid. LOL.
A reminder of Plan B with a rap on the knuckles... And Softlad does not get the recognition (or EN met) that he so desperately wants... grin
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 02:44 PM
So simply have IM send him a message saying that all communication needs to go through her?

I quite like that, he gets no pat on the back for paying the bill, no acknowledgemnt of my noticing it, just a rap on the knuckles for breaking the rules.

It may reinforce the message that I am not going to be drawn in to discussions or give him anything like a fantasy divorce scenario.

On the other hand silence will do that too.

But the IM option tells him not post things, which he may take notice of, out of pride if noting else.

Im going to mull it over a day or so I think.

Leaning towards having the IM send something.
Posted By: MFJ1974 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 03:09 PM
Tough decision. On the one hand I would ignore it, as he'll be wondering what the heck? He gets NO reinforcement, he'll try to do more stuff, and then you can sent the IM a message. He will be forever wondering. If the IM sents a message he kind of gets a confirmation of his actions.
Posted By: Xau Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 03:12 PM
Don't respond , leave him to wonder. Silence is your strength .
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 03:12 PM
If you don't have the IM redirect him to her, he will continue slipping you stuff and fantasizing about your clasping it to you chest and melting at the thought of his profound love. That is why I say have IM simply say, "All correspondence and messages to indiegirl need to go through me. She will not look at things that do not go through me. Thanks."

If you do nothing, though it is a statement of sorts.....believe me.....he will continue and escalate.
Posted By: MFJ1974 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 03:19 PM
Then have the IM say something like 'i have received your bill, please direct all communications through me'?

I'm on the fence about both approaches.
Originally Posted by reading
If you don't have the IM redirect him to her, he will continue slipping you stuff and fantasizing about your clasping it to you chest and melting at the thought of his profound love. That is why I say have IM simply say, "All correspondence and messages to indiegirl need to go through me. She will not look at things that do not go through me. Thanks."

If you do nothing, though it is a statement of sorts.....believe me.....he will continue and escalate.

I agree with reading, and soon as his hand is slapped, he will be upset but at least he knows there is/are adults that are supporting Indie and not people willing to let her become a victim to his drama crap he is playing.

I quick slap of his knuckles with the message that he has lost the opportunity to be in her life now should be sufficient
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 06:30 PM
Ok I just got hit on by my friends dad!!! Aside from being an old friend she is also my bro's gf and mum of my little niece (the niece of giant killer hedgehog fame for old thread readers!)

He's older than my dad and looks it, tufts of white hair and balding.

Hes getting divorced, asked me how I was doing when we met on the street and continued to chew my ear off about nonsense (something he does) He said I had lost weight, looked great and that he found my conversation stimulating and intelligent! I dont know how he would know - he never shuts up.

He said would I want to go out for a drink and flummoxed, I told him to arrange something with his daughter and my brother for us all to go out. (Plans which I would then dodge - hes very boring)He said he wanted it to be just us and could we 'make a date' now and I said I would not want to do that.

I said people going through a divorces should have lots of people around them and fun, not go out on-on-one to talk about such matters.

Honestly is it just me or is this waaaaaaay out of line. Clearly I am be vulnerable at such a time - plus we are practically related! Hes my nieces grandad!

His daughter is only a year younger than me. My dad would put him through a wall.

I just thought that was shocking

Its so shocking that I keep wondering if Ive misunderstood and he just wants someone to talk to, which is bad enough, but anything more - ewwwww.
The only problem with the silence Imdie is that is that it is left unto his own imagination, and as we know, it is ripe with everyone,"Not understanding him"...

Make him use people on this planet, because we know what is real, and we don't accept what he is doing.

He needs to pull his head outta his...

JMO..
OMG Indie Lol, He is way out of line sweetie, you handled it well though..
I was talking to a beutiful 19 year old girl the other night, who was also way too friendly for her own good, but being 53 I was able to understand that she was just messed up, and we ended the convo with the understanding that sex was over-rated, and avoided the converstaion about how love was needed, to make sex valueable, because well, that would lead to much more than was appropiate in that sort of conversation.

I wasn't gonna take advantage of that with her, and I know where that can lead, how sad and sick that can become, the wise old guy and the confused young woman... puke

If he ever approches you again, tell him your father would bury him if he ever knew about it,and get ready to tell him if he doesn't stop his foolishness. He still needs to grow up, and you aren't gonna be part of his lessons he needs to learn in the process.
Point him to this site if anything Indie, we can deal with him in whatever is his pain, if he is willing to listen
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 08:45 PM
He's loser CP who lives in a fantasy world. I think his pain is sorta related to the fact he isnt 21 any more. His wife walked out on him because she doensnt want to be married to someone who goes out partying 24/7 and bringing the band home wih him (yes that really happened)

I doubt coming to this site would help him realise he is supposed to be a grown up.

I am thinking strongly of telling his daughter. If my dad was hitting on my friends, id want to know.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
He's loser CP who lives in a fantasy world. I think his pain is sorta related to the fact he isnt 21 any more.

Yeah obviously, he has probably been like that for years, and now "the roach is coming out", in his personality now.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
I am thinking strongly of telling his daughter. If my dad was hitting on my friends, id want to know.

Probably a good bet that at least someone will deal with him, and if I am right, his DD will have some pull on that front, as she probablt takes after the more mature family member, her Mom.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 10:36 PM
I'd say that instead of telling his daughter, tell YOUR FATHER. Let Daddy take care of him. smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/02/11 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Probably a good bet that at least someone will deal with him, and if I am right, his DD will have some pull on that front, as she probablt takes after the more mature family member, her Mom.


Actually her mother is totally nuts. As were her subsequent stepmothers. Her stepdad is nice though. Hes the only explanation for how she turned out so well!

Originally Posted by Scotland
I'd say that instead of telling his daughter, tell YOUR FATHER. Let Daddy take care of him. smile


Hehehe. This could be quite amusing. If my dad can keep it reigned in. Sometimes hes a bit of wildcard. Like all dads with daughters I guess!
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/03/11 01:12 AM
I agree w/others on how to deal with soft lad.

However, this stuff is common and you just realize it is designed to MANIPULATE YOU into ending plan B and also thinking he's some sort of a residual nice guy. Things could be beginning to go downhill in crappyland, and he may be missing parts of his prior life by now. Plus I'd bet his conscience is playing havoc w/him. After all he betrayed his BEAUTIFUL STRONG WIFE smile and his dead former best friend by shagging THE BLACK WIDOW.

He wants to still look good in your eyes. This is last resort stuff. He wants to see if you'll bite if he dangles a carrot in front of you. That you will break the silence. That you will THANK him, initiate contact, and that he can get his fix of you again and maybe, just maybe if you are feeling weak, you might say something like a compliment to him. Don't let him. Go dark. This is his obligation. He basically had to do that, don't even worry or question a darn thing.

Wanna know what happened to me after I'd left Darth? One day I came home and there was a note from my landlord (I was leasing a home) saying he had been contacted by my then wh asking permission if he could bring me something. I did not have a television at the time. Left all of them in a huff when I left him. Plus I had no washer or dryer and refrigerator. I'd just moved in a day or two earlier and was shopping for them.

When I had to move, it was due to a serious issue and done literally in an instant. Got the home luckily too.

anyhow, I read the note, opened the door and found out I'd been visited by BAD SANTA. Yep. Inside was a large, flat screen tv, another tv in a box for my sons' room, and a washer and dryer was hooked up in the utility room and a refrigerator was plugged in and working in the kitchen. I called my landlord, and he said that Darth called him and said he needed to get my things to me, and that I needed them desperately for my little boy, and could he LET HIM IN MY HOUSE? My landlord thought Darth was feeling sorry, that he was maybe changing (he knew why I moved in and needed the house so quickly), and tried to be nice and LET HIM IN without my permission. So basically all day, Darth and some workers and the landlord were shooting the bull inside my new home, with him sitting on my couch watching tv, and just walking around..VIOLATING MY SPACE.

If you give SL an inch, he'll take a mile. When I didn't respond to what he did (he should have sent me my existing property as I had no need to buy anything new. He should have had to buy them for himself), he sent my IM a scathing email (our neighbor at the time) saying he could not believe how ungrateful I was (reinforcing his being wayward and also lashing out b/c I didn't break plan B and give him attention/adoration for playing "bad santa").
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/03/11 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by peachyisback
I'd bet his conscience is playing havoc w/him. After all he betrayed his BEAUTIFUL STRONG WIFE smile .

I cant argue with you Peachy!

Originally Posted by peachyisback
anyhow, I read the note, opened the door and found out I'd been visited by BAD SANTA.

rotflmao


I agree with you about the manipulation thing. He was always doing too much for others so he could demand things back from them - or mope and complain people werent fair.

I always thought of him as generous, but I think he is just another bad santa!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/04/11 09:52 PM
Well I told my brother and his girl what her dad has been up to.
I said that they needed to know that he approached me without any thought of how it would affect/shame them.

My bro was very shocked but he thought it was funny such a thing could happen, whereas his gf was absolutely mortified. She called her dad up and told him that she was horrified, that my brother was horrified and that I hadnt appreciated being hit on by someone so much older, who was still married and who was so inappropriately related to me.

He said nothing but texted apologies to them both with the excuse that he was drunk. At least he didnt deny it I suppose.

One thing I didnt know was that he cheated on her mum and thats why they split up years ago!

She says her dad still thinks hes 21 and is totally delusional. My bro just said he must think he's something to have thought he was in with a shot at all.

Apparently he is now very embarassed because his and my whole family will know. Well he should have thought of that earlier before he tried the vulture move on a BS.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/04/11 10:05 PM
In happier news from Indie-land, I have booked my all inclusive holiday to egypt for the end of the month - just me and my precious marmee.

I have some new bikinis and co-ordinating toe nail polish too(this really does make you feel better!)

All is well in my head for now.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/04/11 11:16 PM
Good to hear about the trip, and JEALOUS. I wanna travel too. Hmph. (Tantrum over, grin )

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/11 10:12 PM
I am having such a bad time at work. I am sure my recovery would be doing much better if I worked somewhere half-way decent.

There have been lots of cuts and we have been told that we will no longer get overtime for working on Sundays, that we now have to stay in the office later at the weekend (for less money) and that our chief exec has just given himslef a ļæ½3000 pay rise. That's half the money saved by cutting our weekend pay.

My boss is pure Art of War. I know he has read the book! I can just tell. He does lots of bluffing like saying he wont consider negotiations no matter what we do. He also says he didnt think we would mind losing ļæ½700 a year. He wont even consider giving us time off elsewhere in the week to make up for it.

It really reminds me of the way waywards are when there is nothing holding them to account. They just plough selfishly on regardless for greed.

Its really bad because I just want to be around honest people right now. I treat others fairly and I want the same.

The job is a horrendous commute too and it is just no longer worth my while.

I have just sent my CV to an employment agency and basically said I will do anything (within reason!) for x amount withn x miles.

Wish me luck and freedom!
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/11 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I have just sent my CV to an employment agency and basically said I will do anything (within reason!) for x amount withn x miles.

Indie,

that's not the way we work... You cannot just get your own celtic voyager and send him out to tell people you will do anything within reason. We have standards too.

Yeesh.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/11 11:30 PM
crazy
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/11 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I have just sent my CV to an employment agency and basically said I will do anything (within reason!) for x amount withn x miles.

Indie,

that's not the way we work... You cannot just get your own celtic voyager and send him out to tell people you will do anything within reason. We have standards too.

Yeesh.


LOL - that would be quite nice though!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/11 11:58 PM
((((Indie)))))

I too need a new job.

Something where I don't need to lie so much. It would help me sleep better.

Did you read the part of my thread where I was asking people what I should be when I grew up? I also asked on FB. I have some pretty funny friends, and it helped me in my recovery.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/07/11 12:05 AM
Ill have to check that out!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/07/11 12:18 AM
Oh yeah, there were some great ideas. Lemme see if I can remember some. I think Pep suggested that I be a professional roller skater. My friend on FB suggested that I be a fortune teller. Someone suggested astronaut. Oh HILARIOUS. wink It really did help me get through that phase. Isn't it good to know that you are right on track?

See, I think that us changing who we are by working the plans, makes us look at all aspects of our lives. We see things that we need to change to make our lives better. It's great. No, really, it is. grin
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/07/11 12:51 AM
Indie,

I think you should be a professional belly dancer. My teacher makes really good money!

Or, maybe take up Roller Derby, you know it's making a comeback!

My dream job is as a wrangler at a Dude Ranch in Alaska. Sadly, my wonderful husband won't even fathom moving there, but everytime I want to run away from my life, I threaten to move there. If I ever found myself single I would be there so fast...
I still think you should be an Astronaut Scotty..
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/07/11 10:16 AM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
I still think you should be an Astronaut Scotty..
Ha, Beam me up... SCOTTY!!!
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/07/11 10:26 AM
Indie, I have hit that question too... what do I want to do with this part of my life? I quite enjoy my job at the moment, but it is not what I want to do forever. And I want to have a new focus in my life given I am no longer looking at being a stay at home mum in the near future. I am considering some extravagant ideas along with some tamer ones, but the thing I am realising is that I can do whatever I want, without having to consider anyone else. Not what I had planned and not what I would choose, but this is where I am so why not make the most of it? No need to POJA when it is just me.

Best of luck with the temp agencies!

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/07/11 11:45 AM
Quote
No need to POJA when it is just me

And this is what I am dealing with in all aspects of my life. It kinda feels good now that I don't need to POJA with anyonr, but in a weird way, I miss it too. It's very strange when I think about it.

Caracal, you're about a year too late BTW. wink
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/08/11 09:39 PM
Had very much a non POJA day, just doing whatever I felt like. There is something to be said for having no one to please but yourself, even though I would really like to have a family and a marriage, I like my own company.

There was a point in the day when I was just alone with my thoughts and I realised my heart still pained. I realised I still have a broken heart.

I can hear you all saying 'well of course! it was only a moment ago that your husband and good friend stuck a dagger into it!' But it genuinely came as a surprise to me.

I have been feeling so cushioned and safe in Plan B, that I do not ache a whole lot. The comparison between now and D Day is like the difference between a woman who has gone through childbirth (I imagine!)and later on has a splinter. It pales in comparison

It is only in quiet moments, when I am really paying attention, that I know there is a wound on me that is unhealed.

It should have made me feel sad, but it didnt. I feel kind of like a soldier who has marched across a desert and discovered that he has done so on a lame foot, fuelled only by determination. I am proud of myself. I am not unfeeling, I am just strong. I can see how far I have come and that even if there is a long way still to go - I have proof that I am well capable and well equipped.

All you other Bers can too - and do!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/08/11 11:19 PM
I still have a few moments like this, once in a while. I think it's part of the process. And you are right, it hasn't been all that long ago, you are bound to still be hurting some.

It really does go to show you how effective Plan B really is. That's why I am such an advocate for it. I shudder to think what life would have been like without MB and Plan B.

Tomorrow, what one thing will you do for yourself? It could be something small, but what will it be.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/09/11 06:14 PM
Well today I went shopping with mum for some pretty holiday things. Got myself glitzy flat sandals and a cleopatra style rope necklace (when in egypt...) I also got a new dress for when I go out with the girls on Wednesday night for dinner.

Tomorrow I have bellydancing and Tuesday I have my maths class.

But tonight I have maths homework shocked

Ah well, when im done there is a bubble bath followed by cake!



Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/15/11 10:15 PM
My sisters 30th birthday party in parents house last night. Very low key as she is seven months pregnant. Some relatives showed up who are close, but obviously not as close as my immediate family.

Well it turned into lets-bash-softlad night.

I understand they havent had the same opportunity that we have had to discuss and vent, but it was all pretty old hat to the rest of us.

I found myself reassuring THEM!

Then my cousin, who I have told repeatedly in the past not to tell me any softlad-news, starts doing just that.

She tells me that softlad posted a happy birthday message on my sisters FB page and why is she still friends with him?

I say no idea because we dont discuss him.

Then my bro's gf chips in and says she hasnt unfriended him because she wants to keep an eye on him.

I give my cousin the 'dont tell me stuff' speech and she says 'its only a little thing' and i say 'little things are details - details are too much'

Next thing she'll be telling me a big thing and telling me that she has to tell me 'because its a big thing - because its important'! She loves me though and just feels it too much I think.

Ive had some strange post again. A letter came through the door addressed to the council's electoral register dept and with no postmark on it - so hand delivered and not to the address on the envelope. Its also unsealed.

Inside is a voters registration form for this address. Mine and softlads names are on it and the form asks us to check the names are right for this address. You are supposed to return it with any corrections if details have changed - in the prepaid envelope back to the electoral dept at the council.

I have already had a properly adressed and sealed letter from the council about this.

This looks as though one has also been posted to softlad at his parents address ( I told them he had moved there) and then he has put it into the prepaid envelope and through my door.

There are also some figures scrawled on the page, which are his handwriting by the looks.

What the hell?

Or am I being paranoid? Maybe the council hand delivers at particular addresses where they have recieved news of changes.....

No that cant be right.



Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/15/11 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Well it turned into lets-bash-softlad night.
Indie, I have had a couple of these experiences too. The difference for me is that no-one I know has any details of WH, so this is something I think you need to be very careful of. Maybe explain that you are trying to move forward in life, and talking about softlad slows your journey? Then they are likely to know that talking about him to you is not in your best interests without having to explain the whole of Plan B.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Ive had some strange post again... There are also some figures scrawled on the page, which are his handwriting by the looks.

What the hell?

Or am I being paranoid?
If there is one thing a BS learns surviving an affair, it is trust our instincts! I really do not know what to make of softlad's behaviour, very strange. Still gaslighting?

I wonder if he is doing drive-bys, keeping tabs on you, in some way trying to maintain the connection with you. Maybe hand-delivering mail is softlad's way of cake-eating now, he sees the home he once shared with you, and feels he is still doing you favours in a way. It is clearly meeting an EN for him in some way that OW is failing to do.

I guess the best answer is we can never really understand the wayward's decisions and behaviours. They are not logical.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/15/11 10:49 PM
Sometimes, I avoid talking to people who I am certain are going to share something with me. It's hard though. Especially when it's outta the blue, and I am not prepared for it. It knocks the wind outta me.

So, you get any ideas for a career path?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/16/11 02:59 PM
Teaching is looking likeliest.

I fill out my application form this week for courses, but that wont see me start anything until next autumn.

I just have to find something to do in the meantime. I cant stay put where I am. My current job is just not working for me any more and the commute is dreadful.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/18/11 10:16 PM
OK this has been covered in Caracals thread but I am venting / blogging it here, because it must be a very common Plan B experience.


I really, really feel 'done' with softlad today.

This feeling has been circulating for weeks in the back of my mind, but I havent really given it its due, as I felt it was prob temporary.

It isnt going away. I dont miss him. Everything I do remember about him seems false or inadequate.

I dont think about him as a man, as my h. This isnt difficult. I do think about the pain I experienced in the aftermath/during the A. But never about him or us.

I want him to regret it. I think I also want him to want me back. But not so I would take him back. Just for the chance of refusal.

I dont love the man I remember. I think I was tricked re his character. I am sure of this., He was a liar. I have discovered lies that pre-dated the A. I remember being manipulated on many occasions but didnt see it for the truth.

I dont want the plans to recover my marriage. I think I just want his affair bust up out of moral outrage and the chance to reject him. I just want to heal myself.

I have started feeling glad that I have got a start on D'ing him. Though I did it for legal reasons, I feel that I may be ready to move on with my life entirely very soon and I want to be divorced for that. Scotty has posted something I found interesting re a similar situation on Caracals thread.

Originally Posted by Scotland
Caracal, since you have that one year wait, use it to your advantage and don't worry about if you would take him back or not, unless you are faced with it. Let yourself heal, and get to that 1 year mark, and then decide. Your emotions will be a lot less raw, and you will be able to make a decision with a clearer head(unless you're like me hehehehe).

I get this and no way am I making any permanent decisions until I reach the six month mark I set for myself. Actually, it pob makes sense to defer this until the nine months it will take to D him.

I dont worry about taking him back or not - that would be for him to convince me. Its just that I think I may not, no matter how sincere he is.

I also feel it is somehow unnatural to plan to not plan. I feel in limbo. I am not single, I am not married, I cannot even look forward to becoming single, because I dont know what may happen between now and my deadline. However not planning anything permanent is the best of a bad deal.

Still sucks though. I have spent the last fifteen years knwoing exactly where I am going - towards marriage and a family with the only person I had ever loved.

I know I will be ok. Not knowing what version of ok is unsettling though.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/18/11 11:50 PM
((((Indie))))

I so understand what you are talking about. After DDay, everything about your life comes crashing down. You no longer know where you are going, cuz you got kicked off course. There is a new better course ahead for you, for all of us. Either with our repentant WSs, or without.

I found it easier to focus on the immediate, initially.

After a while, I wanted to start planning my life out, but like you, I felt I couldn't. That's why I wake up in the morning and deal with the reality that I have in front of me.

I still plan for MY future, but it has NOTHING to do with dating, and relationships, I am no where near ready to date yet anyways. It also has nothing to do with my WH. Besides, he would need to woo me anyways, so I have nothing to do with that. So, I don't even think about it.

I have a plan for what would happen if my WH were to contact my IM and say that he is ready to reconcile. I have a plan, that way, I don't need to think about it anymore. I live like as if my WH doesn't exist, because in my life, he doesn't.

There were a few moments that I also thought about filing for a D, and I would pray about it. I felt like I should just continue with my path right now. That is to continue to make my life better, without my WH, and to heal myself, so I may one day be ready to date, someone else.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/19/11 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I do think about the pain I experienced in the aftermath/during the A. But never about him or us.
I am trailing behind you in terms of personal recovery Indie, and have to admit I have some ways before I reach this. Thanks for sharing though, I am following your steps and learning.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
I want him to regret it. I think I also want him to want me back. But not so I would take him back. Just for the chance of refusal.
My exact thoughts! I really no longer know if I simply want him to feel my rejection as he has rejected me, or if I want the offer of recovery so I can actually figure out where I am at. No matter whether I want recovery or not, I KNOW I want the affair to crash and burn. Sort of juvenile, I know, but that is where I am at. I know I do not want him to live happily ever after with the farm ho.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
I dont love the man I remember. I think I was tricked re his character. I am sure of this., He was a liar. I have discovered lies that pre-dated the A. I remember being manipulated on many occasions but didnt see it for the truth.

You have faced further betrayal through the financial aspect. This is very much a personal decision. Hugs to you Indie.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
I dont want the plans to recover my marriage. I think I just want his affair bust up out of moral outrage and the chance to reject him. I just want to heal myself.
I have moments of this myself, increasing moments.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Scotty has posted something I found interesting re a similar situation on Caracals thread.
Aren't we both lucky to have Scotland posting her wisdom to us? Thank-you Scotty!!!

Originally Posted by indiegirl
I also feel it is somehow unnatural to plan to not plan. I feel in limbo. I am not single, I am not married, I cannot even look forward to becoming single, because I dont know what may happen between now and my deadline. However not planning anything permanent is the best of a bad deal.
Indie, sometimes reading your thoughts is like a glimpse into my soul. I am a planner. Not overly so, just always liked to have an idea of where I want to go. I have always known where I am going, what I hope to achieve. WH admits that he would not be where he is today without me. Because I plan, set goals, and strive to achieve. So I have really struggled with the living day to day with absolutely no thought of tomorrow, just trying to get through this day. And I feel odd considering another relationship when I somehow feel this one has not even ended. I understand.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Still sucks though. I have spent the last fifteen years knwoing exactly where I am going - towards marriage and a family with the only person I had ever loved.

Yep, totally sucks.

Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/19/11 04:18 PM
Indie:

Having read your posts from the beginning, I know that whatever you decide about softlad, you will be more than fabulous. Your thoughtfulness, kindness and warrior's attitude have been a shear joy (seems like the wrong word, but I hope you get my meaning) to read.

The softlad that is out there now? He doesn't deserve a woman of your caliber. Probably never did.

And feeling in limbo ... I get that, too. But maybe this is one of those moments in time where you just ... have ... to ... be. Be in your current state (strong, bruised, wiser, tougher, hopeful), in order to truly heal? My therapist always had to work with me to power through moments of frustration, tenseness or unease. To regain my composure, my sense of self worth, my positive energy.

You are Indie ... such an apt handle. That alone says sooooo much about you.

Cheers,
SP
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/19/11 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Caracal
I KNOW I want the affair to crash and burn. Sort of juvenile, I know, but that is where I am at. I know I do not want him to live happily ever after with the farm ho.


~I dont think this is juvenile. You just dont want to live in a world where atrocities happen. I dont think it is vengeful either. The end of the affair would be the end of their enslavement and addiction. They would be free of the horror. (No one can tell me that it isnt depressing, vile and awful to be in an affair - you only have to look in my WH's dead eyes. They used to be lovely eyes)

Now, when I am vengeful, I start to wish softlad and OW a lifetime of misery with their just deserts - each other. However OWs two innocent little children prevent me from doing this
much.

Originally Posted by Caracal
Aren't we both lucky to have Scotland posting her wisdom to us? Thank-you Scotty!!! .


Yes we are her grasshoppers!

Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
Indie:

Having read your posts from the beginning, I know that whatever you decide about softlad, you will be more than fabulous. Your thoughtfulness, kindness and warrior's attitude have been a shear joy (seems like the wrong word, but I hope you get my meaning) to read.


This means so much SP! I cant even say how much. (I thnk it was the perfect word)

Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
And feeling in limbo ... I get that, too. But maybe this is one of those moments in time where you just ... have ... to ... be. Be in your current state (strong, bruised, wiser, tougher, hopeful), in order to truly heal? My therapist always had to work with me to power through moments of frustration, tenseness or unease. To regain my composure, my sense of self worth, my positive energy.


Yes, I know how to be. This evening having dinner with my girlies it was easy to 'be'. Not so much yesterday with the gales and rain and bad work day. I need to make more nice days, that's all.

Oh and I had a slight realisation yesterday that might be useful to Plan Bers...

Originally Posted by indiegirl
.

I dont think about him as a man, as my h. This isnt difficult. I do think about the pain I experienced in the aftermath/during the A. But never about him or us.
.....
I dont love the man I remember.


Ah. I had forgotten the MB mantra that feelings follow actions. The above feelings are purely down to Plan B actions. I found a pic of the two of us on holiday, behind the cabinet just after posting this. A really nice pic, with the kind loving expression on his face that I had actually forgotten he had. I felt my shield being pierced and the phrase 'I need you' popped into my head. This was a common phrase I thought a lot during the pain of the A and Dday.

This made me realise that Plan B doesnt cure the wound, although it feels like it has. It is simply an anaesthetic. The wound is still there underneath it. Any peeks, pokes, prods or any triggers like my photo, and the Plan B anaesthetic is damaged.

I wasnt triggered too bad tho I dont think. I put the pic away and got on with a very busy day. I havent mooned over him or anything. I seem to have trained my brain not to do that. Isn't that incredible? I would not have thought that could not be done, but it can it seems.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/19/11 10:49 PM
Oh you two, blush Thank you.(See Pep, I am still learning).

I never would have made it through those dark times without the help from MANY MANY posters, both past and present. I even learned through you two. Every time I post, I have to think about what I am posting, and if I see the advice would be good for me as well, I take it.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/19/11 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Oh you two, blush Thank you.(See Pep, I am still learning).

Scotland is a bloodsucker.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/19/11 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by Scotland
Oh you two, blush Thank you.(See Pep, I am still learning).

Scotland is a bloodsucker.

HAHAHAHAHA rotflmao
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/20/11 02:01 AM
I know I've been reading Dracula too many times when I see that and wonder... "Scotland, is your name Mina?"...

rotflmao
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/24/11 06:29 PM
I dont know how typical this is or how much it is 'Plan B' thinking

When I get upset lately, it is always due to remembering the pain after DDay

It is not pain of the A itself, or thinking about WH, it is the memory of the pain that makes me cry.

I dont know whether this is progress, a need for another elastic band to snap or what. I just think it is strange that I am more upset now about the after effects than the attack itself.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/24/11 08:36 PM
That is actually a move in the right direction. As long as you don't get stuck, you're doing great. You're a superstar. Great job
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/24/11 09:10 PM
Thank you yoda grin
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/25/11 08:59 AM
Thats interesting Indie. I find myself doing that at times too (although I still sometimes feel sad over the affair and WH).

Today I have had a sad day, reflecting on the horror of the pain I went through after D Day. I look back on myself like viewing my pain on a home movie. I even remember some of the comments I made, like a wounded dog. At the time I was going through this I knew how badly I was hurting, but now with Plan B I can see the depth of the agony I endured. My reactions in some way shock me. Not sure if that is the right word, but I never knew I could react to emotional pain like that.

I am sad that I had to go through that, sad that anyone has to go through that.

I think these changes in thoughts are all steps in personal recovery. With any trauma it takes time and processing to work through all of the emotions. Like Scotland said, it is if we get stuck in one area that it can become a problem.
Posted By: New_Path Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/25/11 10:55 AM
Hey indie, your're doing great.

My moments are when I think how cruel and selfish WW is at this time in her life. That she is so blind of the damage our children.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/25/11 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Caracal
reflecting on the horror of the pain I went through after D Day. I look back on myself like viewing my pain on a home movie. I even remember some of the comments I made, like a wounded dog.


EXACTLY. Even the hind sight view of the pain is totally horrifying.


I had a bit of a realisation today. The WHOLE time I have been in Plan B - I've been reading WH's horoscope. I do this like a sort of reflex and honestly had given no thought to it being anti-plan B in any way, as I dont take horoscopes seriously and read them out of habit.

It isnt a genuine look into his life. It doesnt see me meet his needs in any way. Nevertheless it does trigger thinking about HIM rather than ME after I have scanned it in a magazine.

I caught myself doing this today and I was totally stunned that something so obviously bad for me could have slipped past my radar.

And do you know what my first thought was? It wasnt - 'Oh good - I have spotted a Plan B glitch and fixing it will make me happier'. No. It was 'Ooooooooooh - I am TIRED of being good. I dont gossip about him, I dont spy on his FB page, I dont drive past OWs house, I hung up on his text to the house phone - CANT I JUST READ HIS STUPID HOROSCOPE!!!!!

But no, I cant. Not if I want to leave cheating alien wierdo way back in the dust and roll on with a super duper recovery.

Bad indie. naughty

But I learn a bit more every day.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/25/11 11:30 PM
hug GREAT INSIGHT INDIE.

It's funny how something that you thought was so harmless actually kept you thinking about your WH, and was potentially harming your personal recovery.

Isn't it great what you Taker can think? You start to justify what you KNOW is bad for you. Glad you understand yourself so well. AWESOME.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/26/11 12:52 AM
LOL.
I am not a horoscoper either but read mine and WH's and whenever it is sounding like he might have romance and sizzling action in affair land....I get aggitated.
Whenever there is a good sounding one for him I am bugged.
He is the same sign as one of our kiddos though and I remind myself I want good things for the child.

Again, I am not a horoscoper really. It isn't a logical thing in any way.
Posted By: TTFG Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/26/11 12:57 AM
What you don't believe the stage of the moon or the day your born, totally predict what and who you are? Come on we all know those colorfull houses with the neon signs, that house the peculiar fortune tellers, are how real people win the lottery!
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/26/11 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
The WHOLE time I have been in Plan B - I've been reading WH's horoscope. I do this like a sort of reflex and honestly had given no thought to it being anti-plan B in any way, as I dont take horoscopes seriously and read them out of habit.

It isnt a genuine look into his life. It doesnt see me meet his needs in any way. Nevertheless it does trigger thinking about HIM rather than ME after I have scanned it in a magazine.
sigh Indie, I am sure if I believed in all of this, in another life you were my conscience.

I have been reading WH's horoscope. I do not believe in them. But since the separation I have been reading it obsessively.

It does trigger me. You are right. I read recently that there was likely to be a pregnancy soon, and I plunged into dispair. Despite not believing this stuff, it is like my last chance at having any insight or influence on his life. Hmmm.

And I am guiltier then you, as I knew it was triggering me but did it anyway.

Masochist.

Thanks for calling me out.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/26/11 10:20 AM
Yes its funny isnt it? I did justify it to myself on the quiet, I think by telling myself it 'wasnt real'. Well my thoughts are real, so out it goes. It takes time though to sort through the habits and reflexes you've built up for years. Even sleeping on the left hand side of the bed. It drives me crazy because I am making room for him! Nuts. But its a habit I havent managed to break yet.

Oh well, if I have anything its time. And I am not sure yet how to break the horoscope habit. I will stumble on them in every magazine. I will try just reading my own the first time, and if my eyes get dragged to his, then next time I wont be allowed to read the page at all, and if THAT doesnt work, no more magazines.

Had the craziest dream last night. It started with a 'dream within a dream' I dreamt I was on the verge between sleep and awake, dreaming that softlad was in the bed with me, with his arms around me. I slowly woke (in the dream) to realise that he WAS in bed with me, and that he wasnt supposed to be. I was furious and woke him up, I dragged him out of the bed, demanding to know how he had gotten into MY house. It felt very real. I kicked him out and he was in the street in just his pants. He was a bit angry, but a bit taken aback and without argument, like he hadnt expected any fight from me on his being home.

When I really did wake up I was a bit bemused. What did it mean? Is it my assessment of what I think he wants? His needs from me, but taken back by force instead of earned back. Or is it wish fulfilment on my part? It would be tremendous fun to kick him out in his underpants in the middle of the night.

I came to the conclusion it was just a weird dream. End of.

A friend in work said something lovely to me the other day. She said I was more 'me' than I had ever been. She said she thought I had become the sort of person I was always meant to be and that I now had this real spark.

It was great, because sometimes I get paranoid over being classed as some sort of divorce stereotype - bitter etc. But apparently not...
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/26/11 12:38 PM
Indie, you are doing everything beautifully. And look at how you made others think about what they had been doing in their own Plan B's. Now THAT is some yodaing. GREAT JOB.

I think your dream was your mind kicking Softlad outta it. smile

I remember having dreams like that too. I remember getting mad at myself in my dream because I allowed my WH to come home without all of the requirements being met. It made me realize how strongly I wanted to stick to my guns.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/26/11 04:57 PM
When Scotty was new in her Plan B, she had a "Loony Jar" .... She made loonie deposits when she obsessed about WH.

A Loony is a Canadian dollar coin.

A "loonie" is also a crazed person.

She financed some family fun time with her boys using her loonies.

Al least that way, her obsessive WH thoughts had some value. A monetary value ! LOL rotflmao



Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/28/11 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
I think your dream was your mind kicking Softlad outta it. smile


I LOVE this. I sleep and my mind fights on!

Originally Posted by Pepperband
When Scotty was new in her Plan B, she had a "Loony Jar" .... She made loonie deposits when she obsessed about WH.

A Loony is a Canadian dollar coin.

A "loonie" is also a crazed person.

She financed some family fun time with her boys using her loonies.

Al least that way, her obsessive WH thoughts had some value. A monetary value ! LOL rotflmao


Yeah I love the loony jar!

I am away for a while pals, my last night at home for some nights. Staying at parents tomorrow and Sunday morning Mum and I fly to Egypt!

I am so looking forward to it!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/28/11 09:46 PM
Have a safe and MARVELOUS trip. And don't worry, we will keep these posters on their best behaviour while you are gone(did you see what they did to MY thread when I went camping?) HEHEHEHE
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/08/11 04:36 PM
So I had a great trip. Got home last night. On the way home I thought to myself that my heart was healing remarkably rapily. That I almost dont want softlad to wake up,as he would then stand between me and a whole new world.

So this news greets me in an email from my solicitor today. apparently softlad has now got representation. They state he believes he has grounds to cross-petition on the basis of MY behaviour (I wonder if that was typed with a straight face, or if it is a standard letter?)

However they will allow me to proceed on the grounds of His behaviour if limit my claim for legal costs against him so we pay the same amount

(as the petitioner, I have alreay paid to file the divorce, but my solicitor sent a letter telling him that as he refuses to end his affair, he should pay me back all the money as I was effectively forced to do that)

My solicitor recommends that we accept because keeping things on an undefended basis keeps the costs lower.


It is all pretty much as expected and I am not one bit surprised. So why do I feel completely and utterly kicked in the teeth yet again?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/08/11 04:37 PM
This actually really really hurts. A surprising amount. Plan Bers coming up on the rear should expect a dip in the ride.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/08/11 05:13 PM
It DOES hurt.
You happily-ish truck along in B and then are reminded of the horrors of the betrayel here and there and it always gets you when you are at even keel and whoops your spirit to sorrow again.

Better than being in the drama continualy.

Plan B is the best place given the possibilities though you are a human experiencing the situation anyway.

yk?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/08/11 06:38 PM
I am glad that you had a great trip.

In the end, with the legal stuff, what is going to cost you the least in the end and if you still want to stall the D, which one would help you get there.

Softlad is trying to cover his own butt.

Ride out this low knowing that you will get even again. I often think that because you are healing when these hits happen, it actually helps you through a bit.

Glad to have you back.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/08/11 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So this news greets me in an email from my solicitor today. apparently softlad has now got representation. They state he believes he has grounds to cross-petition on the basis of MY behaviour (I wonder if that was typed with a straight face, or if it is a standard letter?)

((indie))

This is often the case once legal representatives are brought into the picture. And although this is deeply personal to you it is not for the "representative" who sees it as just another case. This is what they do for a living and their reputation is based on favourable outcomes for their clients. Therefore, they try every argument they can think of to get something to fly in their favor.

I'm sure if this representative knew you personally they would drop softlad like a hot potato.

One more battle in the war. Keep fighting. You are doing great !!
Posted By: finah Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/08/11 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
This actually really really hurts. A surprising amount. Plan Bers coming up on the rear should expect a dip in the ride.


{{{{indie}}}}




Prepare yourself for a small roller coaster.


I just had a D settlement hearing.....received everything I wanted, my WW rolled completely over.......I fully expected a battle....


Still I left feeling kicked in the gut.


Expect an attempt to cake eat when it nears the end.......

My WW pulled it.....


Let the lawyers do the dirty work......it's why they are there.





Hang in there and make sure to treat yourself.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/08/11 07:50 PM
I had to go to the dentists just now or I would have left a fuller description of my trip.

It's important that I do, because I have so often slammed others' poor boundaries on here. However while I was away, my own were tested and in places I dropped them entirely.

The second night in Egypt involved lots of wine. It was a very quiet resort, which is what I was after, but I was bored. When we joined a group at the pool bar that night I scanned the group for single men to be wary of and it was all middle aged couples, so I felt it was quite safe to relax and I chattered away nonsense and drank a bit more than I would usually.

Of course I forgot about the blinking staff, didnt I? My mum said the next day I had been flirty with them and vice versa. At first I objected. I said the staff had been nice, but that's their job, but she insisted and she is always right. Plus I am flirty in a way that I would describe as a reflex. It has happened in the past where I am not aware of it if im not being watchful of myself. Plus this trait of mine has been kept in the box so long, that I had forgotten that I did this.

Actually scratch all of that excuse making - it is nice to have men hanging on your every word. While not thinking about the consequences.

Well I spent the rest of the week trying to undo this mistake. I think I would have got away with it with European men, but Egyptian men are quite aggressive, particularly when they know you're going home next week. One of the guys, was a true die hard and I was well punished for my behaviour by his creeping me out on a daily basis. However another one was worse in that he was very funny and nice about being turned down. Which turned him into a temptation. Could hardly believe it.

Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
But how do you escape temptation? It's everywhere. - Schlag

No it isnt. - Indiegirl


Always the contrarian, I'm going to disagree with you on this, IG. As a mtter of fact, I don't have to, because you refuted your statement almost immediately, but in doing so you provided Schlag with the answer to his issue:

I even have vultures circling around me seeking to make good on my vulnerability but its not a problem because I have rules...I dont speak to men about personal matters or get involved in indepth chats...I dont chat to men online...I dont spend time alone with men

Look, it's not just in marital/sexual connotations that temptations exist. They do, for ALL of us.


It was VERY annoying to realise NG was right. Temptation does lurk round corners. However by the time I realised the wisdom of his words, the damage had been done. I had displayed poor boundaries and turned an Egyptian waiter into a temptation. So the only thing I could then do was rely on my Art of War and

... 'Appear Strong when Weak'

All I had was my poker face and I couldnt betray any temptation on my expression. I feel I did pretty well. But from now on I hope to do better.



Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/08/11 08:22 PM
In generaly, Indie, I think you are being very hard on yourself, but ...

Quote
Plus I am flirty in a way that I would describe as a reflex.

This actually struck me as very wayward-ish. My FWH said his affair "just happened," and he's a fun guy to be around. Probably a lot like you. smile

Actions can be reflexive, but ultimately we can control ourselves, right?

OK, you're already hard enough on yourself without me piling on ... plus, I just "reflexively" ate a Twix candy bar. And I could have controlled that!

Hugs,
SP
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/08/11 08:31 PM
I know, sweetpea. It is very much an excuse, isnt it?

I think I like admiration so much that I choose to make it a reflex. I have swift, practiced movements when it comes to flirting. So practiced they are second nature and I hardly have to think about them.

All I have to do in reality though is think about NOT doing them

Apparently it wasnt anything I said, mum said it was my movements and expressions that were flirty. Which is cringe-worthy. However I must have noticed the reactions, they must have driven me on.

I must be aware of this tendency more and clamp down on it.

Wine seems to be the more obvious 'trigger' for flirting, trying to work out what others I can ban.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/08/11 10:26 PM
I am glad that you are realizing the poor boundaries you have in yourself. It's something that you can work on. Taking a look at how you act is good for later.

Interestung that your mom pointed it out. Did you apologize to your mom? Did you ask her if your actions harmed her in any way? She'd probably say it didn't but for her to actually bring it up to you, it must have been obvious.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/08/11 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
I am glad that you are realizing the poor boundaries you have in yourself. It's something that you can work on. Taking a look at how you act is good for later.


Yes I also shudder to think where I would be without this site.

Originally Posted by Scotland
Interestung that your mom pointed it out. Did you apologize to your mom? Did you ask her if your actions harmed her in any way? She'd probably say it didn't but for her to actually bring it up to you, it must have been obvious.


She said it didnt harm her, but that she didnt want me to be so careless in future. She said failing to count the staff as risks was just plan stupid. She was absolutely right. She also felt I failed to take into account cultural differences. She was dead on there too.

My mother has a very gentle technique when it comes to advice giving, in which she allows people to make mistakes so far. If I had gone beyond what she would have allowed, she said she would have told me that we were leaving.

I told her the next day that there was little I could now do. A u-turn would have little effect. It's text book isnt it? Flirt then run away. Its like baiting the hook and tugging on the line.

She smirked and said 'I know'. She had let me be careless and then showed me how difficult it can be to clear up the mess when you are careless.

I would be happy to have a quarter of her wisdom one day.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/09/11 12:42 AM
She sounds like a WONDERFUL woman. I can't wait to meet her someday. laugh
Posted By: LookingToLove Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/09/11 02:04 AM
Indie, I thinks its great that your mom could point out your flirty behavior in a gentle way. I try to do this with my wife, but she gets defensive and says she is not flirty but just friendly. Can you be more specific on what your mom considered "flirty"? I'd like to do a reality check and compare your behavior with my wife's. Maybe I'm over reacting. If not, maybe seeing what you say will help her understand my concerns. Thanks.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/09/11 02:12 AM
LTL, what you are "seeing" are your wife's poor boundaries around men. That is why it bothers you. You don't need to see it in other people to justify that you feel wrong about the way your wife behaves.

Have you read the material on this site? What brought you here? Maybe you could start your own thread so we can help you. If it's not about affairs, you can start a thread in the MB101 forum, or another one that more suits your circumstances.
Posted By: LookingToLove Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/09/11 02:27 AM
Scotland, you're right. What I am seeing does bother me, but I'm not sure if it's based on my own insecurity and feeling that I don't measure up to these other men, or if my wife actually has boundary issues. We are in our sixties and my wife's demeanor seems to change around men in their twenties and thirties. My wife is more extroverted than me and I don't want to do a DJ on her friendliness. (She is friendly to other people too besides young men.) I don't suspect her of an EA or PA, and the reason I asked indiegirl was to get an idea of what people consider flirting vs friendliness.

Thanks for the suggestion to move to another forum. At the moment it's a bothersome issue and probably not worthy of starting another thread. Indiegirl's post just reminded me of women behaving flirty.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/09/11 06:39 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
It is all pretty much as expected and I am not one bit surprised. So why do I feel completely and utterly kicked in the teeth yet again?
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I had to go to the dentists just now or I would have left a fuller description of my trip.
Geez Indie, when you said kick in the teeth I didn't think it was literal, lol!

A shame that you had to return to that. Waywards sure know how to take the glow off the tan huh?

Originally Posted by indiegirl
It's important that I do, because I have so often slammed others' poor boundaries on here. However while I was away, my own were tested and in places I dropped them entirely.
Before you left on the holiday I thought to myself about warning you about Egyptian men and how persistent they can be. But it sounds as though you learned a valuable lesson.

I was chaperoned everywhere with my husband the two times I went, and still got admirers with husband actually puffing up and me usually having to calm him down at the audacity of some of them. Cultural differences, sure, but also I saw some of the brazen behaviour of female tourists and guess some of the men have learned that persistency pays off!

I am having a different experience about boundaries. Whilst married I have always had high boundaries with men. I don't want to get involved with anyone until after divorce (and still not sure even then as I might need more time). But I have started to think about how on earth will I lower the boundaries? They are such a reflex, I must come across like Fort Knox! Actually getting someone to ask me out on a date is going to take some work, cause when anyone shows an interest my wall goes up...

Sorry to T/J yet again, your experience prompted me to share some of mine. And glad to hear from you again!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/09/11 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by Caracal
Before you left on the holiday I thought to myself about warning you about Egyptian men and how persistent they can be. But it sounds as though you learned a valuable lesson.

I was chaperoned everywhere with my husband the two times I went, and still got admirers with husband actually puffing up and me usually having to calm him down at the audacity of some of them.


I hadnt been to Egypt before but I have been to other muslim countries and of course men and women dont chit chat with each other there.
Had I been in a souk or market I would have behaved very differently, not even making eye contact. Of course a resort uniform shouldnt make any difference to that. I was flabbergasted when I was asked out on a date the next day and I am sure my mother wanted to shake me for not seeing the obvious.

Originally Posted by Caracal
I am having a different experience about boundaries. Whilst married I have always had high boundaries with men. I don't want to get involved with anyone until after divorce (and still not sure even then as I might need more time). But I have started to think about how on earth will I lower the boundaries? They are such a reflex, I must come across like Fort Knox! Actually getting someone to ask me out on a date is going to take some work, cause when anyone shows an interest my wall goes up...


I have been here, where I felt I was practically biting off men's heads for asking me the time. Being cheated on makes you very wary and suspicious of everyone and everything.

But then I found myself in situation where I felt flattered, and I liked it.

I would just say not to make any assumptions about your feelings as they change daily.

Not that I regret in any way not dating a waiter! But it would be lovely to go out on a date. To have someone funny and interesting and handsome show an interest in me.

I cant do that obviously. Even if the divorce was through, I am still getting upset. It would be like signing up for a run with a broken ankle.

But I can see other people going out for runs and I am beginning to get claustrophobic.

The couples on holiday, all loved up, were torture, pure torture.

I just wish I was through this and getting on with my life, one way or the other. But you cant just will a broken ankle healed.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/09/11 02:16 PM
Oh you two, I remember that time all too well.

I remember seeing couples embrace, or kiss and it sent daggers through my heart, now, not so much. I missed it. I missed being loved. I still miss it, but not in the same degree.

Caracal, I dunno if you have read my thread(and Indie, I am gonna T/J slightly here, sorry hun). When I first married my WH, I was certain that this would be it for me. My grandmother has never dated anyone after my grandfather had an affair and she left. That was about 40 years ago. And her sister never dated after her young husband died back home in Italy, that was over 50 years ago. I figured that I would be like them. I wouldn't date anyone after my WH(meaning if we were to D, or he died). I couldn't even kiss another man in a dream. I would stop him and say, "I am married." and then I would wake up. I didn't even look at other men as something more than a way I would look at a woman. My friends thought I was crazy. I now understand that I was a buyer in my marriage, and I wasn't looking for anything different.

Well, these last 2 years have changed me. I am now changing from being a buyer, to becoming a renter. I can now see the possibility of dating someone, in the future.

Don't get me wrong, I yearn for companionship. I wish I were loved and cared for. Firstly, I am married still, so dating is not gonna happen, and secondly, as Indie said, I am still hurting. It will be a long while before a man were to enter my life. But for the first time, in almost 20 years, I am starting to notice men, but I keep it at a distance.

I know how easy it would be to let someone in, let them meet ENs and then WHAM-O I am TOAST. Those boundaries are meant to protect me, but when I don't need protecting anymore, they'll come down.

You two are both relatively early in your Plan B. remember, recovery is a marathon, not a sprint. You'll get there.

Indie, take care of that Taker in other ways, and make sure those boundaries are up tight. smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/09/11 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
I didn't even look at other men as something more than a way I would look at a woman.


I am a bit like this in some ways and think I might have to stop it though, You just cant talk to men the way you would to women - as closely, as relaxed or as intimately. I dont. But Im not being wary enough either if that makes sense.

I had another chat with mum today and asked her if I had been embarassing. She said not at all, that my behaviour would have been fine at home. She said also that I had 'given them the brush off' at one point in a way an english guy would have understood perfectly, (snorted in derision, shook my head and walked away) but because I hadnt been totally blunt, it had just sailed over their heads. She said she was just warning me and not to take it to heart.

However, I think I am right to take it to heart. I need to wake up a bit. English men might be more subtle, but that isnt going to stop ENs getting met in a more subtle way.

Originally Posted by Scotland
I know how easy it would be to let someone in, let them meet ENs and then WHAM-O I am TOAST. Those boundaries are meant to protect me, but when I don't need protecting anymore, they'll come down. smile


Yes indeedy. I had forgotten how much I like admiration. Usually my obstinacy keeps me safe. I dont like being pushed or hassled, so the pushy one wasnt a temptation. The one who was pleasant, though, that hit home a bit. Scared me and reminded me I need to be more careful.

I dont think i should be having lively discussions, with anyone other than women for the present time. Im too wounded and cant be trusted.

Oh I am having a bit of a facebook dilemma too. I saw on an update of a mutual friend of mine and softlads, a reference to softlad.

I hid the updates of mutual friends for a while, because although he was blocked, people would speak to him on the updates of others so I could see what seemed to be missing posts and then someone would go, 'yes I agree softlad'

Even though Ive since hidden their updates, theres a news feed on the right of the page. They still show up on there.

Today, one of SLs friends said he had mega news and I know he and his wife have been trying IVF, so stupidly I clicked on it.

I saw he had got a new job and one of the first posts said: 'It seems congratulations are in order for you both - when do you go to manilla softlad?'

So now I have been picking that one over. I dont even want to mention it to my family, as I know its been hard for them to keep their lips buttoned about softlad. If I say I know a bit, they might tell me the rest....

Still I dont really know everything. He's been wittering on forever about getting a job abroad so as to prove the affair I exposed is untrue. Guess he still really cares more about her reputation, his, or both than to have an open relationship with her.

I dont care though. Not my business at present.
I think it will have to do with the maturity of the men you talk to, and the KISA reflex of them also, which is high in most men

Even the best of us still tend towards protection

The ENs being filled are best left to professionals, the clergy, God, and people like Dr Hs staff

To deny the void that is left is a setup IMHO, and like Scotty and others, there is good support to be latched onto, to fill those places.

You sound great and Scotty as usual, great post
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/10/11 01:22 AM
I would say that from now on, you don't click on mutual friends FB pages.

I have my MIL and SIL hidden, and I would need to actually click on their pages to see what they are saying. I ignore the right hand column. My WH is not even friends with anyone I am friends with, but my SIL had me tagged in pics with WH in them(apologizing later, and explaining that it was because she was tagging me in my boys pics). That's when I set it so I couldn't see what she was writing.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/10/11 07:05 PM
Iļæ½m going to give it a month before I give credence to this statement but ļæ½ I think Iļæ½m done.

Back to the old routine with work today. I think I have post holiday blues big time. I also think my house kind of drags me down a bit. Maybe I should redecorate so it is my place, instead of the marital home.

In spite of these obvious moodkillers, though, I really think Im done. I donļæ½t think I can ever get over the resentment of being left to dangle like this, for months, to heal on my own and just limp on in whatever way I can manage. Im not even angry with him for it, I just think heļæ½s pathetic. I am at the point where I cannot recall one good thing about him.

So what does ļæ½being doneļæ½ mean? Plan FU? Nope donļæ½t want to see his sorry face under any circumstances. Dating? God, im not going into that battleground with my head half off and my heart minced.

I suppose it will make little difference, but I really think I am done.

Posted By: beginagain Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/10/11 08:55 PM
Dear Indie,

It does sound like you are done. Everyone has different timelines, so it is what it is. Also, sounds like it is holding you back from moving on.

What are your next steps?

ba
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/10/11 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by beginagain
What are your next steps?


There isnt anything to be done. Plus I would like to live with this feeling for a while to see how permanent/temporary it is.

I just.... think its really sad, but I would rather not let him back into my life. Not if he is willing to let me suffer for this length of time. Why that is worse than cheating, I dont know but somehow it is.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/10/11 09:14 PM
Goodness girl.
My thoughts on being done.

There is no done.

Proclamations just are to convince ourselves that we are at a certain place of no return, but, who knows.......

I feel its best to think there is probably no chance for reconciling since we have great respect for real love to behave and have our back (and the wayward didn't) but be open to the possibility that we don't need to definitely know the future in regards to how we will feel.

I like to think that any proclamation is just shooting ourselves in the foot and putting ourselves in a corner to behave.

Live. Laugh. Love.

Remove your soul from the drama and just be.

Proclaim to us but don't think proclamations to your in real life friends and family need to be made.

I hope that makes sense. It is working for me.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/10/11 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by reading
Proclaim to us but don't think proclamations to your in real life friends and family need to be made.


Oh no. Like I said, it has yet to pass any test of permanence.

Its just that others must have been here.

Maybe I need to route out that 'when do you know you are 'done'' thread.

There must be WSs who come back too late. No one can stay in limbo forever...

i think softlad may already be too late.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/10/11 09:48 PM
Yup, softlad may be too late.
You don't need to know without a doubt whether he is or not.
You just need to live and keep going through things and
be okay either way.

If he did come back, a lot would depend on how he came back and what juncture you were at and whether he fit in that in any way or not.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/11/11 01:00 AM
I have had feelings like this at times throughout my Plan B.

I also know that there will come a time when it will be permanent. I am not there yet(since even typing that made me cringe). Sigh.

I would say that you should go through you steps, don't be too concerned with if you are going to be done or not right now.

You are doing the right things to heal yourself and get ready for the next phase in your life. So don't worry if you are done with Softlad or not right now. Just deal with the reality you have in front of you. Which right now is a life without Softlad.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/11/11 05:32 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Not if he is willing to let me suffer for this length of time. Why that is worse than cheating, I dont know but somehow it is.
I'll second that! Going through D Day alone... I know no D Day is "pleasant" (ok, understatement of the year!) but it would have been nice to have the one responsible for the agony there to comfort me. Actually, scrap that, it would have just been nice for him to have to see the agony. And to help pick up the pieces. When I remember what I endured, I think there is no way he should get a second chance.

But I also agree with reading and scotland. There is no point dwelling on it because even if we come to a decision, it could all change in a heartbeat. I know I can't predict what my response would be if WH showed up remoreseful. It depends where I am at with my life, and whether he convinces me he is worth it.

I remember reading SMB's thread, and she was very much "done" at times. Look where her and HPB are now.

I do agree though, that the resentment as time goes on would make recovery that much harder. Our WH's would likely have a much more difficult time convincing us to attempt recovery. We have had time to keep raising that bar.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/12/11 07:21 PM
Just took some mail to my neighbour, softlad's relative. I knew going in it was a bad idea. I had considered just chucking the mail out, but there was some very important looking stuff there, like one letter from the DVLA.

I told her I had been away for a week and he should really have changed his mailing address by now. I told her it was nearly six months and that in future things would be going in the bin.

She told be he had been there the night before and that she really must tell me some things.

I know I should have just walked out, but I said to her I didnt want to hear anything and she sort of said ok and made me some tea, - before spilling her guts.

I'm afraid to say I got quite upset and she apologised but the damage was done.

Apparently he is telling people he believes I dont really want him back.

He told her he worries about me and that he had noticed one of my tyres had changed, he was worried Id had a blow out

He was adamant he hadnt had an affair, and had her believing this.

He told her was off to work abroad and 'surely when Indie finds out she will know I am not seeing anyone, if I am going away'

She asked would I sit down with him and talk amicably with him and I said no.

I told her about the Plan B letter, (I just called it a love letter) and I said it clearly outlined the way home and that a better relationship would be waiting for him there.

She was clearly shocked and said she wished she had known that, and apologised for upsetting me.

She said they had told him he must stop seeing skanko, and he came out with some garbage that 'he had promised DF when he agreed to be a godfather that he would look after his family'

I snorted when I heard that. How is he going to do that abroad? He was one of six godfathers (have you ever heard the like?) because skanko likes to be as popular as possible. And she wanted to undermine her h's oldest friend.

Oh and he never saw the children when DF was alive because he hated their mother and it was mutual.

Apparently he said that about his godfather promise in front of a few relatives. His uncle - lets call him Steve - said 'But what about the promises you made to Indie?!'

(Steve is a good lad - no nonsense!)

So anyway I told her I wasnt interested in words, only actions and she did agree with me to be fair to her.

Then I came home and wept like a little girl. (20 mins ago)

Im all back to being bouncy now though. Thats encouraging. How much stronger I must be.



Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/12/11 07:54 PM
C'est la vie
such is life

You learned a couple things.

Don't take mail over there and you never know what will lead to getting worked up into a sobbing mess but one must simply bounce back from the experience.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/13/11 12:05 PM
Um yeah, Im not done.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/14/11 12:43 PM
Feel sick and nervous today. This is what comes of letting people speak to me of him.

The rest of his mail goes in the bin!

God bless Dr H and the wisdom of Plan B. Every day would have been like this without it.

This was no peek into his life like the FB feed was. This was a concerted effort by one of his relatives to do the best by one of her own.

She was trying to get me to lower my standards and to disbelieve the evidence of my own eyes.

She is going throguh a separation and knows nothing about her abusive and estranged h's life. She admitted this without a hint of irony. She also said "Oh Ive upset you, dont tell anyone Ive spoken to you like this will you?" Crying, I thought 'Why do stuff if you ashamed for it to be known?!"

I guess blood is thicker than water.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/14/11 01:01 PM
Blood is always thicker than water.

I love that Steve said that, because that is what I was thinking.

I say that you need to Plan B the relative as much as possible. She doesn't understand what you are going through and she obviously doesn't respect you enough to listen to you when you asked her not to tell you something.

(((((Indie))))). I am so sorry. I know how this feels. Get back on the Plan B horse since you know how protective it is. Do something nice for yourself. Refocus on your life.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/15/11 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
I love that Steve said that, because that is what I was thinking. .


Thanks Scot.

I did enjoy hearing that bit. Totally wasnt worth it though. I dont think the relative is entirely evil, she is just worried about him. However I do think she was much less concerned about me than him. There were points in the conversation where I felt under siege, like I was being interrogated as to my reasons and I needed to answer well.

I did, but who needs that?

So shes being B'd.

I will take care of myself a bit but honestly, Ive just got back off hol and theres lots of dull stuff to do now. Its like I need more care than I can afford to give myself!

Well no moaning from me on what must be done. I will do the dishes, do my maths homework, do divorce stuff but also make sure the weekends between now and christmas are eventful and fun. and that I get some sleep! So 'night all....
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/23/11 09:29 PM
Ok, since hearing that softlad may be headed to the phillipines Ive had an idea. My plans to rent out my house and concentrate on going back to uni stalled because I knew he wouldnļæ½t let me rent it out before the divorce settlement. I know he couldnļæ½t afford anywhere else and would want to move in, if I implied I wanted to move out.

I am considering asking my spies to tell me if he goes through with his plan and moves away. If so, then I will get an agreement through my IM to rent the place. Thing is this involves some peeking out of Plan b.

However since I would only be getting 'filtered' info relating to the renting of the house, I think this is still Plan B.

What do you think?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/24/11 01:59 AM
You mean that the peek to find out if he actually moves would be a break in Plan B and you would like to know if it is worth it?

I would say that for you to find out if he actually goes would be acceptable, if that is where it ends.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/24/11 07:27 AM
Well, if Scotland says its okay, who can disagree, lol!

I think the intention behind the peek, to be the best you in Plan B by pursuing your dreams, makes it fine.

Indie, if softlad ain't remorseful and meeting your PBL conditions, I hope he does go sway so you can become what you want to be when you grow up.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/24/11 01:08 PM
Quote
Well, if Scotland says its okay, who can disagree, lol!

LOTS OF PEOPLE. As well they should too. Sometimes I just don't know what I am talking about.

I just figure that this peek will provide info for Indie to make a better life for herself, one that she wanted to do previously. That's why I am saying okay, but to limit that info about him actually leaving.

Maybe you could get your mom to be the go-between with whomever you are going to find that info out from, so she can filter it for you. That way it would only be about if he really leaves.

And remember, it is still going to effect you, and make you want to peek more.

Now that you have thought about this minor break in Plan B, what have your thoughts and feelings been like?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/24/11 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Now that you have thought about this minor break in Plan B, what have your thoughts and feelings been like?


Um a bit strange really. The break has given me a few angry moments. ļæ½who does he think he isļæ½ etc, because if thereļæ½s anything I canļæ½t abide, itļæ½s people whining about their well earned unhappiness and doing nothing about it.

But generally my Plan B must be working quite well because I usually forget to be angry in minutes and go back to thinking about myself which is a nice turn in the bend.

I want to date, which is a bit strange. I am in no way ready to date, there is no one I want to date, but I just keep thinking about how nice it would be.

I am sure this is a very common Plan B phenomenon ļæ½ no one is meeting your needs and you have to learn to meet them yourself. I just keep doing stuff for myself that makes the most of my freedom and not having to check in with anyone. Reminding myself that I am lucky in many ways to not need POJA. For so long I couldnt, I wasnt in a healthy relationship. Its better to be alone than have that. I also think a date with a nice man can be a reward in due time for having taken proper care of myself and gotten myself through this the right way.

I am really excited about my plans for the future and this is the real point of Plan B I think.


Posted By: Maryse Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/24/11 05:45 PM
Good for you Indie! You show 'em what strong stuff you are made of.
You sound good indie

Yeah the date thing is a tricky one

You might realize when you do date, that as soon as it becomes personal, that you are not ready anyways. It is a shock to the system and brings up a lot of fears

Normal reaction and no reason to rush through it, give yourself plenty of time for all of this, you will come out on top

Plan B is where to be
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/28/11 11:17 AM
Has anyone else in plan b felt on the one hand, all fired up to make a better life, but on the other completely exhausted? Ive given myself all these tasks aimed at moving on, but I really donļæ½t have the energy a lot of the time. Its like there is a depression hovering over me, some days I beat it back, other days it has me. I always get at least some small thing done. But then I do the little job and think thatļæ½s it ļæ½ I need to rest, I need to regroup. I feel like that a lot.

This week is especially tough, because there is a test as part of my maths course, and maths is uphill work for me. Then there is the paperwork for the divorce to do; difficult, boring AND heartbreaking. Applying for other jobs is also an important task, because my job makes me miserable at the moment and is sapping a lot of energy. That is depressing because thereļæ½s not a lot out there, so Iļæ½m looking at very low level jobs, just to free up more time for myself to make my plans.

How do you people with children do all of this?

Its like chipping away at rock but I need to remind myself that feelings follow actions.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/28/11 12:57 PM
Quote
How do you people with children do all of this?

We have no choice. Sometimes having the kidlets to focus on helps though. Good distractions and they can make me laugh.

It does get better. You come to a point when it doesn't seem so urgent to change, and you take a look at what has already changed, and realize that you are so far from the person you once were.

Recovery(even personal) is a marathon, not a sprint.

Just know that every step you take is taking you to somewhere great.

hug
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/28/11 01:30 PM
Just make a list of things that need to be focused on first, do that and then on to the next thing...........I feel like that a lot as well, lost the desire ..........
I ended up on an AD and that has helped......
I would suggest accomplishing little things everyday to give you that feeling and then just add a bit more when you feel you can swing it.....
Concentrate on the math first..........the divorce papers can wait until the weekend, when you don't have to think about anything else........
Having a clear head helps with the job search, get your rest, go for a walk .......
Just think about you, nothing else and what you can be..........
You are all you need...........
Posted By: Maryse Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/28/11 02:35 PM
I know exactly what you mean, I suffer from the same strange affliction. No energy, no get-up-and go, no mojo.
Keeping the house clean & tidy is a huge chore. I'm rattling around in a large detached 4 bedroom house by myself, with one cat, and there are rooms I haven't been in for weeks.

Luckily I am enjoying my job, and it is definitely helping me stay sane and on the straight & narrow. But, after coming home from the office at night, all I have energy for is making a cup of tea, veg out in front of the telly for a couple of hours and then haul myself off to bed.

I guess my mental recovery is using up the energy I used to take for granted, but so be it.
I'm riding this out as best I can, and I'm sure the low energy levels is a temporary thing, and eventually that too will get better.

On a positive note,at least there's nobody to tell me off for not having folded the laundry or hoovered the floor ;-)
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/28/11 04:08 PM
Thanks everyone

Originally Posted by Scotland
It does get better. You come to a point when it doesn't seem so urgent to change, and you take a look at what has already changed, and realize that you are so far from the person you once were.


Yeah it does feel as though I am racing towards that point. Maybe time to slow down, get a bit more realistic. Get myself a to-do list based on what Iļæ½ve been able to do recently, not what Iļæ½ve been able to do in the past ļæ½ even if there is more to do now.

Originally Posted by Maryse
On a positive note,at least there's nobody to tell me off for not having folded the laundry or hoovered the floor ;-)


This is so what Iļæ½ve been saying too!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/30/11 01:22 PM
Wow, the rollercoaster was really scraping along the bottom the past couple of days. Worse, my internet is down, so I havenļæ½t been able to get on here much.

Funny. One day you think ļæ½Iļæ½m healing. His failure to act is not my responsibility, I am looking after myselfļæ½.

The next you think ļæ½Iļæ½m done, I donļæ½t want him now, no matter what. I want someone who can dance. Who doesnļæ½t think the fairies do the washing up. Who doesnļæ½t spend his money on magic beans. Someone who is in a better mood. Someone who doesnļæ½t use my desire to have children as a bargaining chip.ļæ½

But then the past few days I have this patch where I want Plan B to change him. Itļæ½s funny because I still donļæ½t want him back in many ways. But I want him to agree to an NC letter, I want to be in the position of deciding whether or not I want to be with him. Even though, I already am in that position.

I think Iļæ½m on an upswing now though
Posted By: 2sweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/30/11 02:21 PM
Scotty is right, kids can be a great distraction to all of this. They are funny at times and are super amazing, but it does makes things more challenging.
Sorry bout the roller coaster Indie

It is said the person with most power in a relationship is the one who cares the least

I guess you could compare that to a drunk or someone addicted to drugs too, or another type of coward

This is hard, you can expect him to remain a child, simply because he can


Hugs
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/01/11 10:53 AM
I have decided to feel proud about the low-roll days. I am a person with strong feelings. They take time to process. I had great feeling for my marriage and commitment to it - that is something to be proud of.
Hi Indie,

I'm reading your story now. I have gotten up to the stage where you turned up at your friend's house to find your H there unexpectedly working on her son's computer.

x
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/01/11 12:35 PM
I look forward to seeing your story unfold too! I sense a fellow warrior...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/05/11 09:13 PM
On with blogging.

Plan B is high at the moment, as it is most days. I mostly concentrate on one step at a time. I have lots of parties and events with friends lined up over Christmas and that is good.

Though at a recent party, an acquaintance tried to register his interest with me by constantly trying to hold my hand. How weird is that? I set him straight, though.

I feel my house is 'triggering' me to think of WH, it's the marital home, so my friend and I are going to redecorate after Christmas.

I still havent done my divorce paperwork (tomorrow maybe) but I got 70 per cent in my maths test! I am a long-term maths dummy so that is such a big deal for me.
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/05/11 10:22 PM
Indie...are you in Scotland? My XH is English and never said "maths" but my fiance and his children are Scottish and they all say "maths"! LOL!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/06/11 12:39 AM
Nope im from the North West of England, Liverpool. Most British people would say 'maths'. Where was your xh from? Ive only ever heard people from across the pond say 'math', dont know any of any English region which would.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/06/11 01:44 AM
Congrats on the test.

Want me to come and kick that guy for you? I could use an excuse to come across the pond.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/06/11 02:08 AM
Nah, but honestly have you ever heard of a weirder way to make your intentions known?

If he had SAID something to me, I could have said, look mate Im still married - Im definitely not dating. I wouldnt have been rude, I would have been nice and polite.

But when someone is trying to grab your hand, youre in this very odd position where you have to begin with 'what are you DOING?'

I dont understand men who dont just spit it out and give you an opportunity to give them a straight answer. Same with the whole 'Can we go out - as friends?' gambit when clearly you wouldnt be going out 'as friends' because um, you arent friends.

Maybe I am not understanding the stress of having to ask someone out because I have never done the asking, and I never intend to either.

But I do like to think that if I were the man, I would man up a bit. I would make my intentions clear, with confidence and without being pushy - and I would try to get some signal that the lady was available and into me before I asked.

And I would NOT just sidle up to her and grab her hand!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/06/11 02:12 AM
But some men just think that they are God's gift and all that. And how could you possibly say "No"?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/06/11 02:13 AM
Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
Indie...are you in Scotland?

This place is nutz.
Indie is in the UK, not Indianapolis.
Scotland is in Canada, not Scotland.
BritsBrat is in Texas, not the UK,
doh2
Posted By: Reynolds531 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/06/11 02:14 AM
Just cause I read a LOT of stuff about attraction and what not...its called KINO. Idea is you touch a woman and that signals intent, builds attraction and can be escalated.

Neak put me onto doing "drive bys" during plan A. If the wife is mad at you for exposure you touch and run. Same concept.

Good boundary you have for setting him straight quickly.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/06/11 06:13 AM
Thanx for that Reynolds. Now I am gonna need to go google something and learn again. HAHAHAHA And I was gonna go to bed. Meh, what's sleep good for anyways?

Pep, do you belong in a band? Tehehe. Must be those crazy MB names we all choose. Scotland was not my first name though. And as always, we get nicknames for our nicknames. Actually that happens to me IRL too.
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/06/11 02:59 PM
I picked Brits Brat because, when I registered, I was still married to XH who is a Brit...hence, Brit's Brat. Ironically, on Saturday, I am marrying another Brit so I guess I can keep my name as it still fits! : - )

Indie, XH is from Surrey. My good friend (who I met on here...the vets may remember Lisa in London...yes, we still keep in touch after all these years) is in North London. My dear fiance is from Dundee.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/07/11 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by Reynolds531
Just cause I read a LOT of stuff about attraction and what not...its called KINO. Idea is you touch a woman and that signals intent, builds attraction and can be escalated.

Neak put me onto doing "drive bys" during plan A. If the wife is mad at you for exposure you touch and run. Same concept.

Good boundary you have for setting him straight quickly.

I think touching your wife is a bit different to it being an opening gambit! Honestly, if the handsomest, nicest, funniest guy in the world was to try that when I am single it just will not work...

Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
I picked Brits Brat because, when I registered, I was still married to XH who is a Brit...hence, Brit's Brat. Ironically, on Saturday, I am marrying another Brit so I guess I can keep my name as it still fits! : - )

Indie, XH is from Surrey. My good friend (who I met on here...the vets may remember Lisa in London...yes, we still keep in touch after all these years) is in North London. My dear fiance is from Dundee.


Woohoo! congrats for Saturday!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/11/11 01:47 AM
Plan B blogging is now getting difficult because most of the time, I feel very good.

I know this is the POINT of Plan B and the desired effect - but it just means I come on here to talk about my fairly ordinary day and general contentment and that I would really rather help other posters who are in pain than talk about myself.

Maybe that is why I am hearing from some posters on here that Plan B is a miserable choice! Because not enough of us are on here talking about the happiness of Plan B once we get past the pain...

The past few weeks I have laughed, I have had long conversations way into the night with friends, I have made plans, I have become my nephews and nieces favorite playmate once more. People are saying I have 'gotten my spark' back.

Like all good reporters though I am going to focus on the negative news of the day.

As I am not off the rollercoaster yet, I still have drops in my mood, though they are becoming miniscule. Yesterday I had feeling like I might want to cry. This is the first time that has happened in MONTHS - and I didnt even cry. The feeling was gone in five minutes.

Yesterday I also made a 'pro' and 'con' list for softlad as to whether he would still fit into my life should he become repentant. WHY I dont know. It actually started off quite level but then the con list took over.

I honestly cant believe I was stupid enough to do that. I stopped reading his horoscope and then I do that? No real side effects though. Maybe the list was more about me and my life though. About what I want and dont want. Perhaps I should simply have made a list about what I want for my life. That might have been more productive.

Though I have made lots of good social plans and things lately, I have gotten a bit disorganised, a bit lethargic. I am not moving on with my plans well enough. I still need to figure out what I am doing about my job, a budget and going back to school.

But I think that has more to do with working long hours in a job that doesnt really make me happy - than with softlad. The commute is killing me too and I need that time and energy to plan my new life.

Anyway I have a checklist of priorities that are aimed at making my life fantastic. I will continue to check them off my list, even if my energy is a bit low sometimes.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/11/11 01:55 AM
hurray clap hurray
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/11/11 02:08 AM
I feel like I should take a bow! Thanks meg!
Knew you would do it. weightlifter

You don't have to have a problem to talk here though, and if it came down to it, being triggered by being here is not good for you either. Everyone I am sure is glad that you are adjusting to this.

I, for one, am not surprised. You have a good head on your shoulders.

What we do here is a free gift to you, and like all true gifts, there are no strings. We give out of our abundance and wish for personal mental and emotional health, we don't own the wisdom and knowledge. In a marriage, the bonding of two spiritually is so important, that people give the task of keeping two together to the power of love, and the author of love, whom/what-ever they believe it to be.

The God of your understanding..Love keeps it together.


If ever you want to talk about anything, we are allways here, as friends with no strings, no needs, because we are allready in good shape on those things.

Yay Indie hurray
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/11/11 05:51 PM
Thanks CP

Originally Posted by indiegirl
. Perhaps I should simply have made a list about what I want for my life. That might have been more productive.


Lets do this then.

1) Make a difference - hopefully through teaching
2) Make more money - hoepfully thorugh teaching
3) Stop spending so much time on the road by cutting down my commute. Hopefuly through... you guessed it
4) I want to have great friends and a warm, loving circle around me. I currently have this in my family and I have sorted the wheat from the chaff where friends are concerned - as divorce tends to do. Still I could do with meeting more people.
5) I want a fantastic, committed marriage with someone who is my best friend and I am theirs.
I would love to be a recovery story on here - but as peeps like Peachy have shown, you can do that even when your wayward shows themselves to be a lost cause. He would HAVE to be an MBer.
6) Children. I know the work involved is SCARY but I also think I would be really good at being a mum. And that I would regret not doing it.
7) Travel. There is a lot to see and do. And since there will probably be lots of time between now and the having to POJA with someone - I can go wherever I want!
8) Give writing a novel a really good shot. I dont expect to get published or anything. But I am never going to be able to live with myself until I have really tried - and finished something.
9) Spread my happiness around. Become one of the children of the light that finds it easy to extend a hand or a smile to others because their own lives are lived in such a way that it gives them strength.
10) But to not be afraid to hand out a 2x4 either where it is needed. Just like an MB vet!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/12/11 02:57 AM
Indie, I LOVE hoe you manage to put into words things I too have felt in Plan B. I have also heard people saying that I am doing much better, since I am starting to be a lot like I used to be. And you know what, there are times when I feel like I am not doing enough to change my life either, anymore. I think that comes from how much you had to change your life in the beginning stages of Plan B. It just doesn't feel like you are doing enough. I think that happens. You can't stay in that state of constant change for too long. Life needs to balance itself out. As long as you are still making a life without Softlad, you are moving in the right direction.

Your list sounds a lot like mine. Funny that.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/13/11 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Your list sounds a lot like mine. Funny that.


I had a feeling actually that it might be!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/13/11 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Scotland
Your list sounds a lot like mine. Funny that.


I had a feeling actually that it might be!

Maybe I am your long lost sister. FINGERS CROSSED. I could learn to speak with a british accent. grin
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/13/11 01:39 AM
ummmm prob not this one - I have a very regional scouse accent! Quite difficult even for other english people to do!

I think we're just on the same page in general (obviously the same thread page, but you know what I mean!)
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/13/11 01:49 AM
Well, when I get a chance to come visit, we'll see. And I need to meet your mum. She sounds SPECTACULAR. hug
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/13/11 02:01 AM
y'know she really is.

I am pretty lucky. We were shopping tonight actually.

First we were cooing over - MY NEW BABY NIECE and her new gradaughter. The little nameless one (mum and dad are trying to POJA that one) slept in the crook of my arm for a bit, quite content. Then mum and I went out and spent some money on pretty much anything that happened to be pink.

I am so happy this little one has arrived just before Christmas. I love my mum and dads house filled with all the kids. They are all really clever and pretty - completely nuts of course, but cute. I am responsible for bringing the gingerbread house which the kids demolish after Christmas dinner. I cant turn up without that - I would be toast.

Babies and shopping - is there possibly a girlier day than that?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/13/11 02:13 AM
Congrats on the new niece.

I LOVE watching the kiddos demolish the gingerbread house. Much better than demolishing MY house. I also love watching them decorate it, they have so much FUN. Are you going to let them put all of the candy and stuff on it?

Surround yourself with family and make new memories. It's gonna be tough, but find the good moments in there too.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/13/11 02:30 AM
This year the older two - my nephew who's six and my niece who's five - could do it, last year they were a bit too unsteady.

However my nephew is only really interested in demolition methods - BOYS!

So it may just be me and the niece, unless he wants to pitch in

Thats ok, I have a puzzleball globe for mr demolitionball, so he will create something this Christmas!

Originally Posted by Scotland
. It's gonna be tough, but find the good moments in there too.


Maybe this is hopelessly naive, but im not dreading Christmas at all. Maybe because softlad was not all that into Christmas and always felt like he had to do family stuff he wasnt really into.

'Our time' was in the morning when we had breakfast and exchanged gifts. This year I am going to be very busy Christmas morning an I have learned from the anniversary etc that as long as I am happy and busy I am more than fine.

One date I am quite conscious of falls on Wednesday. It is the six month deadline I set for myself when I first went into Plan B! As it turns out, I do feel much better, as I had hoped, but Plan B will go on regardless.

So far I dont feel down that softlad hasnt contacted me within those six months. I judge him for it - but it doesnt really affect my mood. That in itself is strange and I hope I dont have hidden feelings which are hoing to hijack me on that day. I feel removed from it though.

My work party is on Saturday and I hope I am not down that day as I am really looking forward to it. Having something fun lined up should help me through anyway.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/13/11 02:42 AM
You sound great Indie. Keep it up girl.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/18/11 08:19 PM
Oh god.

Just had an awkward encounter on facebook. Its a co-worker who is moving away. He sent me a message saying 'I am always too tongue tied to say, but I really enjoy spening time with you'.

He did give off a few signals at a work function a few weeks ago which caught me off guard - Id never guessed he was interested before. But because I was pretty aloof and he backed off, I thought he'd got it that I wasnt interested.

Just sent a message back saying I had barely begun divorce proceedings, didnt feel that way, advised him to look elsewhere because he would be wasting his time.

This is so aggravating for two reasons:

1) When does a FB message in which someone describes themselves a 'tongue tied' (i.e. im not going to be upfront - ill leave that to the lady) pass as a manly way to approach someone? Man up, find someone SINGLE, ask them out, directly and in person and be cool with the possibility of them saying no. Dont lay yourself out like a too-shy charity case who cant bear a rejection. Plus, if he's moving away, what kind of relationship is he proposing?

2) To most of the world I am seen as free and single. I have to deal with crap I am not ready for as a result. Whose fault is this? Ah yes, softlads.

Though to be fair to him, when he was discussing ending our marriage so we 'could be better friends' he did offer to vet boyfriends for me 'to make sure no one takes advantage'. My reaction at the time was floods of tears, but now I wish I had said. YOU ARE DOING THAT NOW - AS MY HUSBAND.

Is it ok if I break Plan B to go throw eggs at Softlads house?

Just kidding.

Well sorta......

No I am kidding.

maybe.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/18/11 08:21 PM
It was nerve wracking sending a blunt reply to that tentative feeler he sent out, too - but

Do boldy what you do at all.

Right?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/18/11 08:44 PM
Oh my god it doesnt rain but it pours.

Just had my MiL on the phone. Drunk and emotional (she is Irish) Says she loves me and misses me and that what her son has done to me makes her sick every day.

We've always been the best of friends. I even said to her that when I get a new husband im bringing her in as the mother in law, cause I couldnt do better.

I made her laugh, but she said that shes bought me some christmas presents and she cries whenever she looks at them (she always spoiled me rotten at christmas)

She started saying that softlad was a lunatic and a 'gobshite' and it was impossible trying to talk to him. I then told her I couldnt hear a word said about him and she said she didnt blame me.

She congratulated me on my new niece. Said that it must be lovely for my sister who has two boys to have a daughter now. I felt that was bit poignant because she has three sons - and I was her daughter, kwim?

We arranged to meet up for a drink. She said she really wants to see me before Christmas. I will have no trouble getting her to honour Plan B and not speak about him. But she doesnt know all I did. She doesnt know about the 'love letter' or Plan B letter I sent softlad. All she knows is that I insisted on NC with our 'good friend' the black widow and when he was stubborn I kicked him out.

But she said our get together was just about me and her, anyway.
Posted By: Maryse Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/18/11 09:14 PM
Sounds like you had a couple of bumps in the road Indie.

As for the co-worker, don't spend another second on him. Clearly too immature to ask you in person, and very much not respecting your boundaries. Just be glad he's moving away so you do not need to encounter him on a daily basis.
Personally, I would defriend him from FB. No-one needs mates like that.

As for your MIL, that's a tricky one. Mine is lovely, and for years I had a better relationship with her than with my own mother.
If she is important to you, and she respects your boundaries I'd say by all means meet her for a drink. No point letting your WH destroy more relationships with his gormless actions.

You'll be fine, you're a though 'un.



Your killin me Indie

Yeah coworker is really a winner huh?

Jeez

Your MIL sounds sweet, all boys huh? That musta been rough, specially all Irish ones, my great grandfather was off the boat here in the colonies, across the pond ya know

And my surname is English whot?

Your gonna make it Indie, like a bad penny

God bless you in this holiday season

Yeah sorta

Just kidding

Well kinda

Lol
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/18/11 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Yeah coworker is really a winner huh?


I cannot bear wimpy men. I dont care if they are housework obsessed self-made milionaires with a face sculpted by Michaelangelo and the dance moves of Fred Astaire.

If they have no backbone, they are as much good as a chocolate teapot.

Even if I had been single, co-worker's method of approach is shocking.

What he did with that FB message is to invite ME to ask HIM out! and he also implied that he was so highly strung that he couldnt even form the words - so how exactly is he going to receive a 'no' then.

No pressure mate.

When I was single I loved being asked out by someone who knew how to do it.

My h told me he really liked me and that if I would go out with him just once he promised he would make me laugh

I said no, because our friendship was too important, so he said . OK, im just going to go home and tell myself Im proud of myself for having the guts to ask out a girl like Indie!

It was easy, comfortable, I knew I could say no without it being a big deal. I knew he was interested and confident enough to say so.
THAT'S how you do it.


Getting an 'I'm tongue tied' message - you fill in the blanks!
I pity the poor girls that one works on.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/18/11 11:21 PM
I'd go throw eggs.

But that's probably not MB.

So ignore me laugh
Yeah sensitive is nice, but geez, confidence is nicer don't ya think?

Sounds like a " Wolf in sheeps clothing"

Who sells themselves as miserable lonely and scared?

He doesnt get it huh? Lonely and scared are a given, miserable is a choice
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/18/11 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Sounds like a " Wolf in sheeps clothing"


I was thinking the same exact thing...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/18/11 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
I'd go throw eggs.

But that's probably not MB.

So ignore me laugh


I know I will dream it anyway!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/19/11 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Yeah sensitive is nice, but geez, confidence is nicer don't ya think?


Im after both. But sensitive of my comfort, not sensitive about covering his own back.

Wow I cant believe how much this bothers me.

I guess it is the proof all right - there are NO decent men who would approach a still-married woman.

This is the second offer so far, since being asked out by my niece's grandad, who is 20 years older and a serial wayward.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/19/11 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I guess it is the proof all right - there are NO decent men who would approach a still-married woman.
Bingo.

Quote
This is the second offer so far, since being asked out by my niece's grandad, who is 20 years older and a serial wayward.
faint
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/19/11 04:37 AM
Hang tough Indie, and know that you are be worth a man who has higher morals. I'm sure you already knew that anyways. wink
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/20/11 12:09 AM
Some days there are moments you realise how far you have come in a short space of time.

Someone put a Christmas card through the door to Mr and Mrs Indie, number 8. Not so long ago, that would have been like taking a bullet.

So, I start laughing until the power goes out of my legs. They must be the most unobservant neighbours in the world! Neither he nor his car has been near for months.

And they forgot to put their own name on the card! Brilliant display of mental prowess!

If I rent the house out its gonna be to an eight foot transvestite or a family of ten - I bet they're still getting the anonymous Mr and Mrs cards when they've been here years.
Yeah it is funny how people live in expectations, and don't even know what is going on really right next door

Sorta a sad but yet funny story happened last week to me

Of course if you havnt guessed, I am a sorta traditional guy, and somewhat of a KISA by nature

Had a job offered to me to replace a starter on a car, which was simple for me, so I told them $80. Turns out the shop wanted to charge $500? Yeah ripoffs and they saw her coming

When she showed up I learned she was the daughter of a very sweet pastor in my old church. She was not a classic beauty, but she was somewhat attractive, yeah I still notice, but it's like for years, more like a father and responsible adult male.

She did have this quality, that stuck out to me, and the best I can describe it is "deer in the headlights" way of listening, lowers her head, serious look, stops and stands close to you while looking up

Didn't think much of it, it just struck me funny, because my late wife would take the same pose, intently listening to you, well seeming to at least

Now the pastor was again a sweet guy, and always quiet spoken, responsible, and always doctrinal and proper. He was in charge of finances, and as stable of a believer as I know, when it came down to family, and always provided

He even came over to visit when WW was on her deathbed, to pray and comfort us

The day after I did the job, and I was talking to my friend who arranged the job about how good it was to fix her car, and support the daughter of a pastor I liked and admired, instead of seeing her get ripped off

When I started to talk about her demeanor, and how timid and quiet she was, and how some guy would be lucky...He interrupted me with a smile, and said,"Don't wanna burst your bubble, but she is a stripper"

Now don't get me wrong, yeah it's a job, but what surprised me this pastors daughter? This pastor? Also I missed all the signals, of the damsel in distress ruse

Must be getting soft in my old age. Years ago would have read the strange body language and saw the quiet demeanor for what it was, feigned submission and damsel in distress

Talked to hookers, strippers many times in my life,and it's usually an easy way
out, and based on frail male egos, and the power they wield sexually. They are usually full of fear and bitterness, and seek control, sometimes from damage done to them, but it is a lonely life, filled with using thier body like an amusement park

They say it is "just until I .." but when you take that line of least resistance, it is so easy to go back to it whenever you get ticked off and screwed over

I think what was most revealing was the similarities to my late wife, when at one time I could read her like a book, but 20 years of being gaslighted takes it's toll

I will never never never never (infinity), be a Kisa idiot again, or fall for the dumsels in distress
I
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/20/11 12:37 PM
I have a feeling that even softlad's solicitor is laughing at him.

Just got a letter saying he wants to change the 'particulars of his behaviour' before the papers are lodged.

His solicitors say that he still does not accept 'the implications implied in the particulars of the petititon... (that he is having an affair) ...but that he does accept the marriage is at an end and prepared to allow the petition to proceed.

He want to change a 'minor error' though. I have said that after sending him a letter (the Plan B letter) insisting he end his affair he did not reply in regards to NC with the other woman.

He wants to change the divorce papers to say that he did email responses to both me and my friend (the IM) when I attempted to discuss possible reconcilliation.

The gaslighting, miserable, damaged, selfish wayward. If he isnt willing to fight for our marriage the least he could do is sit down and shut up while I divorce him.

So I need to speak to my solicitor.

I am getting very tired of his 'I tried! I sent an email!' act.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/20/11 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
The gaslighting, miserable, damaged, selfish wayward. If he isnt willing to fight for our marriage the least he could do is sit down and shut up while I divorce him.


lol.......the funniest things are true, aren't they?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/20/11 05:35 PM
Hugs to you friend.

hug
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/21/11 01:18 AM
Got an FB message back from co-worker. He allegedly doesnt remember sending the message (it was sent at 3am when he was out on the town) and he now says he has no aspirations to date me! 'Just wanted to say it was nice getting to know you better after working together for so long'.

Um we were at a work party with a tonne of other people. Did he send us ALL 'tongue tied' messages? What is he on about?! Freak.

What a spineless wonder.

It's maddening. I'm torn between

a) Sorry, should have known you would never try something so crazy, especially in a lame FB message! Glad that's all cleared up.

or

No reply at all. Not going to play 'lets pretend' with freakboy.

However the wisest course of action is not usually the most satisfying, y'know?
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/21/11 03:44 AM
I'd write back.

Oops. LOL. Sorry....we're cool.

And let that be the last word for all time.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Got an FB message back from co-worker. He allegedly doesnt remember sending the message (it was sent at 3am when he was out on the town) and he now says he has no aspirations to date me! 'Just wanted to say it was nice getting to know you better after working together for so long'.

Um yeah right, lol.

"Well now that you said no, I didn't like you anyways..". At least he could take it like a man, and joke about it. Make a fool out of himself or something to take the edge off. Proper responses would be..

"You don't know what your missing sweety, but I respect your decision"

"Darn I just won the lottery and bought a yaught, thought you might wanna sail around cape horn with me"

Anything goofy but not total rejection, what is he sensitive or something? Jeez talk about taking yourself to seriuos. Even "Sorry, I was drunk, forgive me please, but you are an attractive women, but that was out of line" Then start talking about work or the weather or change the subject.

Ok, he was probably just a kid, but if your gonna ask, at least die with grace and dignity, and a little respect for the lady.

I like readings idea BTW..
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/21/11 06:55 AM
Well Indie, he can now rest assured you won't be recommending him to any of your single friends... and he sounds the type of guy who would have to rely on this method for dating woman.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/21/11 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Ok, he was probably just a kid, but if your gonna ask, at least die with grace and dignity, and a little respect for the lady...


He's in his thirties and should know how to do it by now. He has a big boy job. I think you were on the money with the 'wolf in sheep's clothing' idea. A man who is truthful is just that - truthful. They say what they want from you. I think he cant be honest because he was moving away - which means he was after a very 'short term' relationship. So using the truth was out.

I cant believe the level of deception in that final response though. Or that he expects anyone to believe it. Shows no respect at all. Ive decided not to reply at all and to defriend. Creeps me out knowing he has access to my page now.

Originally Posted by Caracal
Well Indie, he can now rest assured you won't be recommending him to any of your single friends... and he sounds the type of guy who would have to rely on this method for dating woman.


The odd thing is Caracal, he would be very dateable to someone single - when he's being normal. Its only when hes putting on his 'moves' that you get all scared and freaked. On a day to day basis at work he comes across ok.

I just think he wants to be underhand because his motives are underhand.

He's been trying the same 'moves' - weird hand holding etc on another friend at work. So much for the shy and sensitive image hes trying to bluff with.

Doesnt he know women talk!
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/24/11 06:20 AM
Apparently not!

There was an episode of Family Matters where Eddie was depressed that he was a virgin. Laura tells him that the school man-ho is "the laughingstock of the girl's locker room."

If you do something to one woman she'll tell the rest.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/24/11 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by IndieGirl
Originally Posted by Caracal
Well Indie, he can now rest assured you won't be recommending him to any of your single friends... and he sounds the type of guy who would have to rely on this method for dating woman.
The odd thing is Caracal, he would be very dateable to someone single - when he's being normal. Its only when hes putting on his 'moves' that you get all scared and freaked. On a day to day basis at work he comes across ok.

I just think he wants to be underhand because his motives are underhand.

He's been trying the same 'moves' - weird hand holding etc on another friend at work. So much for the shy and sensitive image hes trying to bluff with.

Doesnt he know women talk!
It sure ain't gonna be easy getting back into the dating game when we are ready huh? I take comfort in that I now know MB and I have set my bar high... I really hope I won't get conned by someone like this, who comes across ok. I am scared and hesitant though, cause my WH sure had me fooled and I can no longer work out whether the husband I thought I married ever really existed other than my imagination frown

Speaking with a divorced female friend (whose ex was a WH) has proved enlightening about weeding out the worthy from the unworthy... she always works relationships with ex's into the conversation. How many ex's, why the split, but particularly, the relationship at present. Any evasiveness about current contact with an ex raises her suspicions. I wonder how waywards gloss over this when they start dating. I imagine there is a lot of blameshifting to the ex, so if I ever hear anything along the lines of "Oh, I don't have contact with her now, she was a total b!t#c!" will result in me running out of there. However, I realise that this could also mean the poor guy was simply Plan B'ing... Hmmm, how to differentiate?

Guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, I am by no means even ready to near the bridge.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/24/11 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by karmasrose
If you do something to one woman she'll tell the rest.
Sadly karma, in my experience this does not always apply to the cheating skank ho OW. People often seem to side with them, including women. And not just in my sitch. OW seem very good at playing the manipulative card, and sadly people often fall for it.

It will come out in the end though. Sadly it is often too late to repair the relationships with the BW.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/29/11 07:17 PM
So what can a Plan B-er expect for Christmas?

For my part, I had a very merry Christmas. There were tears in the morning ļæ½ actually tears of happiness, though which makes a change from the previous one. Last Christmas day I woke up in tears because there was something very wrong with my marriage and I didnļæ½t know what it was or how to fix it. I would never have said so at the time, because I blamed myself, but I wasnļæ½t looking forward to exchanging gifts. This was because I expected cruelty from him. Cruel words, and the blame for something I couldnļæ½t change. As it happened he was pretty civil and only said I had ļæ½done too muchļæ½ and made ļæ½too much fussļæ½. It was so strange and inexplicable at the time but now I can see them just as words resulting from very typical wayward guilt.

It is priceless to stand in a place of knowledge, where things make sense and I can make sensible plans. I hope to goodness I will never be chicken enough to let a betrayed spouse suffer ignorance out of my own fear to speak, as others did to me.

This time I was woken up by my mother, who remains a child on Christmas to this day. It was lovely being somewhere where I was loved and where the love was a simple thing, with no riddles to solve. We waited until my brother and sister, their other halves and children showed up to exchange gifts.

My niece stomped up the stairs while I was doing my hair, angry I had not greeted her at the door but instantly forgiving. She told me Father Christmas had brought her a ļæ½puppy that would never grow up and a fairy doll filled with lightsļæ½.

There was nothing fancy or expensive given this year, which suited me very well, but many pretty and useful things changed hands. My gingerbread house was also a hit. Then we all snuggled in for a few days of solid family time.

I wonļæ½t say that there were no sad moments, there was one descended on me and I ļæ½weeped a little weepļæ½ for ten minutes or so on Boxing Day. (Thatļæ½s the day after Christmas, for non Brits!) It was the first sad moment to happen in many months and I canļæ½t really say why it came about. I feel much better off for being in Plan B, much gladder and lighter. I think it was sadness at the sheer waste of a marriage he has chosen to indulge in. Ten years, and many good things were chucked out so he could chase some seemingly greener grass. Meanwhile I am growing my own very lovely meadow, ready for the new things of the new year.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/09/12 08:56 PM
Had an interview today for a job I really want. I was HALF AN HOUR late.
I got a bit lost, but still had loads of time and knew I wasnt far away (I sort of know the area but a little knowledge is sometimes worse than none) but then I foolishly took some bad directions which sounded both right and confident and got VERY lost

Then I went to the wrong building at the site when I did get there. I ended up running over a field as a short cut to the right building and got all mudddy! I had called in good time as soon as things began going pear-shaped to tell them what was going on, but half an hour is so late! I dont see how I can possibly get the job now.

They accepted my apology when I showed up, but probably they were just being nice.

Bizarrely it was one of the best interviews Ive ever had and it went really well. They set me a test and a presentation to do as well which also went brilliantly.

So Ive just been sitting here kicking myself. I get into such scrapes some times and I wonder if I will ever be organised and grown up.

On another topic, I have been wondering lately whether I should unfriend the FB frends who were mutual friends of mine and softlad. One at least seems to have known about the A, so I think he should go. Others havent been in touch at all and they were on the exposure list. Maybe people go into shock though and dont know what to say? Cynical me however says that when faced with two friends against one - they supported the adulterers over the betrayed due to sheer numbers.

One friend got in touch on FB today. She is an ex of a friend of ours and we drifted apart when they broke up. We were good mates at one time, but she socialises in entirely different circle these days.

She had seen on softlads status a message about emigrating and was about to ask me where we were headed when she noticed my relationship status says separated.She messaged saying 'Hope you are ok? Sending lots of hugs' Which means a whole lot, actually.

So I told her the whole sordid tale and thanked her for checking in on me.

About the emigration, I had been told that he was looking to go on the 5th, but apparently he is still around.

I smell a rat.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Had an interview today for a job I really want. I was HALF AN HOUR late.
I got a bit lost, but still had loads of time and knew I wasnt far away (I sort of know the area but a little knowledge is sometimes worse than none) but then I foolishly took some bad directions which sounded both right and confident and got VERY lost

Get an iPhone.


Originally Posted by indiegirl
On another topic, I have been wondering lately whether I should unfriend the FB frends who were mutual friends of mine and softlad. One at least seems to have known about the A, so I think he should go.
Unfriend them. I recently did this (including unfriending my XWW) and it felt pretty liberating.


Originally Posted by indiegirl
Had an interview today for a job I really want. I was HALF AN HOUR late. ...


One friend got in touch on FB today. She is an ex of a friend of ours and we drifted apart when they broke up. We were good mates at one time, but she socialises in entirely different circle these days.

She had seen on softlads status a message about emigrating and was about to ask me where we were headed when she noticed my relationship status says separated.She messaged saying 'Hope you are ok? Sending lots of hugs' Which means a whole lot, actually.

So I told her the whole sordid tale and thanked her for checking in on me.

Good luck on the interview, don't count yourself out yet.


As far as unfriending people I would judge each one as much as they knew about the adultry, how close they were,and so on...Even the exposure targets might have thought you just had a tiff. FB has a way of being far to personal and we can say a lot of things we wish we hadn't.


Glad you hooked up with your old friend and they are on your side and consoling,and supportive, that sort of stuff can work miracles on your self esteem and confidance..
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/09/12 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by TryingEverything
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Had an interview today for a job I really want. I was HALF AN HOUR late.
I got a bit lost, but still had loads of time and knew I wasnt far away (I sort of know the area but a little knowledge is sometimes worse than none) but then I foolishly took some bad directions which sounded both right and confident and got VERY lost

Get an iPhone.


Originally Posted by indiegirl
On another topic, I have been wondering lately whether I should unfriend the FB frends who were mutual friends of mine and softlad. One at least seems to have known about the A, so I think he should go.
Unfriend them. I recently did this (including unfriending my XWW) and it felt pretty liberating.


Succinct but I think you are right! I usually have a sat nav for situations like this but the lead was broken. A iPhone would be a nice Plan B treat too....
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/09/12 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
As far as unfriending people I would judge each one as much as they knew about the adultry, how close they were,and so on...Even the exposure targets might have thought you just had a tiff. FB has a way of being far to personal and we can say a lot of things we wish we hadn't..


Thanks CP. There are a few male friends of softlads I think knew about the A and didnt say anything so thats an easy one.Theres one I am stuck on tho. Our circle of friends had four ladies, myself, my sister, OW, and the fourth is married to one of the boys I am thinking of unfriending.

Havent heard a peep from her. I think her h will have told her to keep her nose out tho. But I think it is just me not wanting to believe that she just wasnt really a friend. I wouldnt ask for permission to do something so simple. One message is easy enough to do and is all I would have needed.

I think I am going to do it.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 01:19 AM
Plan B progress going pretty well this week. Ive discovered this daily vitamin tablet called Barocca and I have shed loads more energy. Its brilliant I must have been lacking something. Anyway my house is clean (miracle) I have done a bunch of DIY jobs around the house that have been buggin me for ages (double miracle) and did some A* level maths questions in class this week with ease. (hat trick)

What a shame I didnt find them before my cringing episode of lateness to that interview. Ho hum. I got the rejection letter and I have to call up for feedback. Like I need it. Yet I will anyway as you never know when your paths will cross again. At least I have found another good job advertised - theres been nothing for months. Maybe this recession is easing up - or everyone is having credit crunch babies.

Well new job or not, the whole house is being redecorated. Myself and a friend who similarly disovered an OW a few weeks after she got engaged have made a pact. The houses need to stop reminding us of the bad boys who got kicked out on their [censored]. So I do her house one weekend and she helps in mine the next. This way we manage to get a great deal of gossiping going at the same time. So operation painting every room in the house begins this weekend with a grand spring clean and de-clutter.

How amazing that I am so happy when it just me. Just me and my plans. That's all you really need. Now to get the message across to people who fear Plan B as though it was a giant killer hedgehog!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 01:25 AM
Quote
How amazing that I am so happy when it just me. Just me and my plans. That's all you really need. Now to get the message across to people who fear Plan B as though it was a giant killer hedgehog!

I KNOW, RIGHT.

Good on ya. You sound like you are doing GREAT. Sorry about that job. There will be something even better for ya out there.

I LOVE to hear when Plan Bers are getting their lives together and not only surviving their spouses affair, but THRIVING. hug
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 02:19 PM
I know right! Get into Plan B, you lot.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
How amazing that I am so happy when it just me. Just me and my plans. That's all you really need. Now to get the message across to people who fear Plan B as though it was a giant killer hedgehog!

Lol, Indie, here's an image just for you.

[Linked Image from cutearoo.com]
Is that Sonic?

Or ,"Sonic the headshop" as my younger son at age 4 used to call him. Now that son is 21 next week.

How time flys
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 06:44 PM
Awww!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 08:32 PM
Love that pic pm!

Got two sorta downers today. I woke up to find the college of my choice had turned me down for the teaching course I need to do. They already had full quota, looks like competition for places is going to be fierce.

To make things worse there is only one other college within miles that would accept an application while i dont have my mathmatics qualification. I dont know how I could aford the travel costs or to move. If I get in. There is another college I could apply for in March when I have my maths result, but places will be gone by then. So I am looking at 2013!

I have a top degree and I cant get a job or a college place - arrgggggggghghghghghghghghghghghgh!!!!!!

Right I am done whining with that one.

The other thing is I heard tody that softlad has left the country. I was expecting this to be like a load off my mind. Actually, no I was expecting it to all be nonsense and him to not have anywhere to go to.

I mean, I cant leave the house without looking perfect in case I run into him. Now, thats gone. I can relax.

However it is just maddening. He has abandons me and our marriage for what? To go somewhere he will probably hate to live.

And he chose contact with HER over me - but now is ditching that in to go abroad? So I was passed over for nothing?

I dont know.

Well, I do. Its all part of his desire to run away from what he has done, a self image he cannot bear to face and a PR campaign which aims to say 'Look I didnt have an affair, I am not having a relationship with her - else why would I go away?' Gobshite.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 08:48 PM
hug

Sometimes it sucks when our plans don't work out the way we planned them to. Change your plans, and you'll do fine.

I would say that you should still go out looking good, cuz it shouldn't have been about Softlad anyways. I know that I feel better when I have on clothes that I like, and a bit of make-up. Before my WH left, I NEVER wore make-up. I started to after he left and I continue to do it every time I go to work. A small amount makes me feel better about myself, and it SHINES through.

It is about Softlad running away from HIMSELF, and his poor choices. There's nothing you can do about it, so focus on getting YOU on track.

Who gave you this info anyways? And why didn't you tell them not to say anything hmmm?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
hug


I would say that you should still go out looking good, cuz it shouldn't have been about Softlad anyways. I know that I feel better when I have on clothes that I like, and a bit of make-up.


Yes but its way better to do it for fun instead of for pride - and I dont have to scan the street for his car any more when I drive home. That IS good.

Originally Posted by Scotland
Who gave you this info anyways? And why didn't you tell them not to say anything hmmm?


Hahahaha. Look at you queen B. Never fear - I asked my mother ages ago to tell me if he left the country for real. I need to know in case I want to rent out the house and for all the legal stuff. I knew she could be trusted to keep the information brief and to the one point I needed to know. She didnt even say where he was going. It was softlad's relative next door who told me the other details - which is why I dont go next door anymore!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 10:04 PM
Quote
which is why I dont go next door anymore!

That's it, plug up those holes. Progress dear. And okay, I'll let go of the knowing that Softlad moved away. Mom knows best. smile But, I'm watching you. grin
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 10:30 PM
Yes I felt unsure of that decision to 'peek' out of Plan B because I know my own feelings and instincts are not unbiased.

Originally Posted by Scotland
You mean that the peek to find out if he actually moves would be a break in Plan B and you would like to know if it is worth it?

I would say that for you to find out if he actually goes would be acceptable, if that is where it ends.


Which is why I check them on here first!

Originally Posted by Scotland
[quote] But, I'm watching you. grin


Good. I would get myself in a big old mess without my MB forum accountability. That peek up OWs street while I was driving the strange car for example. I would definitely have done that if hadnt known I would have had to confess afterwards!!!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 10:51 PM
I know what you mean. There are things that I would have been tempted to do had I not thought about the disappointment I would have seen on here.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 11:18 PM
It has been making me think about accountability in marriage too, you know?

I had a very independent style marriage in which I thought snooping showed a 'lack of trust' and H was entirely down to his own resources in what he did/ did not reveal to me. I did not hold him acountable.

When I was tempted to have an EA, WH would never have known had I done it, because we spent so much time apart. I had to draw on my own stregnth entirely to fess up to the attraction, which was not easy - because I could have chosen to take advantage of that lack of accountability.

When WH must have first realised an attraction to blackwidow, it must have been a very difficult situation. People would have noticed, and judged him for his lack of support, if he had cut her out at a time when she needed friends most. Also, he knew I did not hold him accountable.

Not much any more, but in the beginning I experienced strong pangs to know what was going on with him on the other side of Plan B. Because his love bank inside me did not want to be frozen. Love is like that. And WSs who have a lovebank outside the marriage experience a similar lack of ability to use willpower alone.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 11:25 PM
Oh you are so wise grasshopper.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/14/12 11:29 PM
Oh, I do ok!

I just need to figure out how to be on time for things now. laugh

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Not much any more, but in the beginning I experienced strong pangs to know what was going on with him on the other side of Plan B. Because his love bank inside me did not want to be frozen. Love is like that. And WSs who have a lovebank outside the marriage experience a similar lack of ability to use willpower alone.

Yeah it makes you wonder where willpower really comes from does it not? What is it rooted in?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/15/12 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Not much any more, but in the beginning I experienced strong pangs to know what was going on with him on the other side of Plan B. Because his love bank inside me did not want to be frozen. Love is like that. And WSs who have a lovebank outside the marriage experience a similar lack of ability to use willpower alone.

Yeah it makes you wonder where willpower really comes from does it not? What is it rooted in?



Accountability!

If I had been free to love him without knowing it would hurt like hell, without knowing I would have to lie to/mislead/lose the forum, without knowing where I was headed....I would have just followed weakness and loved him. It was what my whole being wanted to do - in the moments I took respite from hurting.

WSs, though... they hide from accountability.

They go

Flirting doesnt mean anything
Does this mean something? Nah.
Ok it means something... but its ok I can still lie and hide it...
Ok I got caught but I can lie some more/run away etc

That's why rock bottom is a WSs best friend

There is no more running
No more lying to be done
No more exits

Just accountability.
I was thinking it was rooted in love, and yes, I guess being accountable to love.

Willpower that comes from love can cause a 100 lb woman to pick up a 2000 lb automobile which fell on her husband, and pull all the discs in her back.

"Greater love has no man than he lays his life down for his brother", is another thing I believe also, and should/could use the words woman and sister also.

Love makes the world go round, its what we love, that we will live for, and die for, and that will is where willpower comes from, at it strongest. IMHO

Yeah the kids who play at the flirting games and breaking hearts, they need a lesson in accountability. Thanks to this site and the good people here, such lessons can be learned and good people up-heald
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/15/12 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
WSs, though... they hide from accountability.
I was having this exact conversation with a friend just yesterday!

A friend told me she and her H have tried several times to contact Gollum and she can't figure out why he would not reply to her when she has been friends with him as long as I have.

Gollum is running from the truth, desperate to avoid those who can hold the mirror up to him. The easiest way to run from the truth is to hide from those who will hold him accountable.
Accountable to what or who? Why?

They are accountable to who butters thier bread, rubs thier belly, and makes them feel good.

Tucks them in and reads them a story, even if its make believe, and makes/allows excuses.

They are accountable to the other aliens now, who they think like, and they can identify with..

But the chickens come home to roost, they allways do, and only the blind do not see it. Thats is other peoples fault also...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/16/12 08:47 PM
Oh, just been clearing out my spare room in preparation for the painting.

Guess I underestimated the power of triggers.

I found valentines cards, restuarant menus, champagne corks... stuff i didnt even know I had.

Theres a picture of us at niagara falls, Im 18, hes 21 and we look totally, perfectly happy.

They are all going. So is my wedding dress. My rings too, even though they are not in this house, I know they are still in existence and I am going to sell them.

Unfortunately although these memories are all really precious, he ruined them. If we were to rebuild ( I do a sardonic smile when I say that 'if' - as I dont believe it) he would have to make a whole new relationship. New pictures, new cards, new rings, new start.

I still sort of balk at throwing away my wedding album. I know this is crazy vain, but I look really beautiful! That was a year of crazy gym time, lots of water drinking, tonnes of fruit to get my skin right.

Also WH's best friend who died is on them as his best man. Even if we were to have another ceremony, he couldnt be on them. But as his wife is the OW - he is now a triger of the A.

The album has to go. As cute as I look ( and I do) its totally useless to me now.

He has completely ruined the memory of his best friend. I have only just realised that in full.

I wouldnt have been able to do this clear out earlier in the plans, but it's time now. Time for it all to go. Preparation for a true plan Me.

I was surprised how upset I got, how much I cried over the triggers when on a day to day basis I am ok.


I am hoping that changing the look of hte house wil also help me.

I am kind of annoyed that he is swanning around singapore after ditching our marriage in the bin.

I know he is totally miserable - I do know that.

Its just that I always wanted to live soemwhere exotic for a while and he always turned down offers, using me as an excuse. Using marriage as the excuse - even though I was willing to go too. Really he hates anywhere even slightly different culturally. He also would have hated us relying on each other in a strnage place - that would cramp his style.

OK, this is a bad day, isnt it.

On the upside I have lovely clean rooms and cupboards!
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/16/12 09:38 PM
I would keep the photos.
The day will come when they do not trigger you in a bad way and you will appreciate seeing them again...

Put them in a box which you put in the back of a cabinet or closet and you can even write something like "Joyous day" on them

Reclaim some things.

Reclaim your good memories.

Yes, put triggers out of the way and even get rid of many but not once in a life documented optimism and love.

Do not let your love be devalued that way.

I hope that makes sense to you.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/17/12 01:18 AM
See, in my case, I have kept some of the things to remember my time with my WH, but that is mostly because I have children with him. I don't know what I would have done had I not. I want my children to know that they came out of love. It's part of THEIR history too.

If I didn't have children, and I intended to one day move on, and one day have children, I would probably get rid of the things that I had. How would you explain that to your children?

Maybe a good alternative would be to store them at your mum's house. That way you could get them back one day if you really wanted them.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/17/12 01:46 AM
Thanks everyone. I think I am having a tough week, what with him just going off like that.

That is just what I thought scotty - do I show my next h and my children pictures from my first marriage and point out the pics of the OW in the album?

The clearout is supposed to be getting rid of anything not useful or beautiful - the album doesnt qualify at present.

Even if we recovered, her presence on the pics - at the wedding indeed would pollute them..

Oh and I looked so good that day and we looked so happy!

So maybe decide when the dust settles.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/17/12 02:00 AM
I don't disagree that you remove the pics of OW. I can see you with a pair of scissors cutting her outta your life. I KNOW you wouldn't regret cutting HER outta your life.

Why don't you box up all of it and send it to mum's? I am CERTAIN she will take care of it for you, and this way, you will be able to move ahead without them holding you back, and in the future, you can look at them and decide which ones you want to keep, and which ones you ditch.

It's funny that when you have something hit you outta left field, like finding out that Softlad moved, that you want to move forward more quickly.

I think Reading wants to make sure that you don't do something that you may regret one day.

As it is, there is a chance, albeit small right now, that you may recover with Softlad, and I think you may want some things to remind you of your earlier time. Never know, you know.
Posted By: Viper Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/17/12 02:30 AM
I'll tell what I did only because I want to be a miniscule part of indie's thread.

I burned everything, but I was raging.

Later, found a pair of her panties in the back corner of one of my drawers.

Burned them too

Later, months later, found a jacket in a spare closet that was kind of lost amongst my older clothes.

LOL...burned that too!

The ONLY thing I didn't burn was pictures of her(our)son that I was raising as my own, and called ME daddy. I very proudly called and think of him as my son,and still do...8 years later. Those pictures will be with me until the day I die.

Of course, she didn't leave me too many of those either.

ETA: indie, so sorry for what you're having to deal with. You're pain really does break my heart. Hang in there sweetheart.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/17/12 04:48 AM
My thoughts are from the perspective that

this is YOUR history.

Yes, you are in pain from betrayel and the photos, presently represent that betrayel.

If you put them somewhere they will not be a constant trigger, but, you did get married on that day at that event and it is part of who YOU are, no matter what WH and OW went on to do. YOU were a bride that day. YOUR history. They don't own that. They can't negate that.

When you destroy something that has no copies it is gone for good.

I'll give an example that isn't related to infidelity though I think of this event in my own life when considering what to keep and what not to keep.....

I, in 1981, had a fiance who wrote me beautiful letters and we were together only a couple years but he broke off our engagement and I destroyed the letters thinking that is what people do. Now, in 2012, I would love to read them and remember how they made me feel back then. Because it was a part of my life. My history. My experience. It doesn't matter at this point that the guy went on to marry someone else or have children or to whatever. It was my 1981. Mine.




Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/17/12 06:23 AM
Originally Posted by reading
this is YOUR history.
reading summed it up for me. Reading your posts indie, regardless of softlad, you were proud to be a bride for the day. Proud of your beauty, proud of the family and friends that surrounded you to share your happiness.

I have wondered what to do with my wedding album. At one point thought of delivering it to Gollum's sister, but then thought Gollum is not worthy of ever having it fall into his tainted hands. So I have left it with my mother. As for the rings... I thought of selling them. But have tucked them away at the back of a drawer.

My hesitation largely comes from a friend's SIL. Her husband abandoned her and their 6-week-old baby many years ago (denies affair but hmmm?). In her pain and anger, she collected EVERYTHING to do with him, photos, albums, wedding gifts, clothes, gifts, the LOT and burned them. Six months later a very remorseful husband begged for another chance. About six years on, they have had more children and seem happy and committed.

Now that the pain has subsided she regrets losing all of the mementoes

Whether softlad mans up or not, those memories have shaped who you are today.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/18/12 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
It's funny that when you have something hit you outta left field, like finding out that Softlad moved, that you want to move forward more quickly.


Yes, JUST so. Is that a common Plan B phenomenon? If so just wanted to underline it for the newbie-b-ers

Originally Posted by Scotland
As it is, there is a chance, albeit small right now, that you may recover with Softlad, and I think you may want some things to remind you of your earlier time. Never know, you know.


I do know. As much as I would love to kick his [censored], I know that the right actions on his behalf, could win me back. And that he is at the mercy of Plan B consequences and his own wayward stupidity as to what his next move wil be. So anything could happen. I just prefer not to think about it, and also, people in RL would look at me like I was crazy i I said it was still 'possible'.

The singapore thing has me split in two. On the one hand he's not with her (although, in Plan B I couldnt swear to that. But I just know somehow). That is satisfying and I put it completely down to exposure. Also the fact he would hate the culture, lifestyle etc has me kind of pleased. He was desperate to run away from it all. Also due to exposure.

Originally Posted by reading
If you put them somewhere they will not be a constant trigger, but, you did get married on that day at that event and it is part of who YOU are, no matter what WH and OW went on to do. YOU were a bride that day. YOUR history. They don't own that. They can't negate that.


Yes, that is how I feel beneath the pain.
And that is not permananent.

WOW - yesterday my only indecision was I couldnt decide whether to burn them or chuck them! Now I am keeping them. Or rather, mum is.
Originally Posted by TigerWes
I'll tell what I did only because I want to be a miniscule part of indie's thread.


Aw. So touching!

Oh I have my lovely new Blackberry now. A more organised me beckons do you think?

Uh-huh. I had it exactly ten minutes before I got myself in a fix.

I had deleted Softlads number on my old phone, but the sim card remembered it when I put it into the new. Seeing it come up, I wanted to delete it, but because I dont know how to work it totally yet, I CALLED him instead.

Panicked, I hung up quickly, then tried a different method of deleting which called him for a SECOND time.

So now, technically, he has my number though I dont see how he would have any idea it is mine. If he calls I am just going to have to ignore till he gives up.

One day, I won't make any mistakes. I will be on time for everything. I will understand algebra. I will be completely unruffled at all times, because my car keys will never be in the fridge and I will never slip in icy weather because I will have the foresight to wear the right shoes.

Ok, it doenst sound FUN but neither is being all arms and legs on a slippy side street. And breaking your eggs.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/18/12 01:05 AM
AHHHHHHHH You called him? How creepy.

Yes, I do think that it is a Plan B phenomenon. At least, that's what happened to me.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/20/12 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
The singapore thing has me split in two. On the one hand he's not with her (although, in Plan B I couldnt swear to that. But I just know somehow). That is satisfying and I put it completely down to exposure. Also the fact he would hate the culture, lifestyle etc has me kind of pleased. He was desperate to run away from it all. Also due to exposure.
I have recently been questioning my thoughts about Gollum and something in this quote stuck with me.

How, in Plan B, do you just "know somehow". Are you making assumptions? Based on intuition? Hope? Or a belief that you know the man softlad was, and can therefore predict his current behaviour?

I have been thinking how I know NOTHING about Gollum. I can't predict his current behaviour because he is not the man I married. The man I married would not have lied to me, his sisters, family and friends. Nor would he have lasted another winter in the UK at a job he did not like. Any guesses (and that is what they are) about what he is now doing are based on my knowing the man he WAS, not who he IS.

I am curious about where this "know somehow" about softlad comes from.
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/20/12 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
One day, I won't make any mistakes. I will be on time for everything. I will understand algebra. I will be completely unruffled at all times, because my car keys will never be in the fridge and I will never slip in icy weather because I will have the foresight to wear the right shoes.

Ok, it doenst sound FUN but neither is being all arms and legs on a slippy side street. And breaking your eggs.

I'm glad to find someone else who puts her car keys in the fridge. grin Do you ever find the milk where the car keys are supposed to be? rotflmao

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/20/12 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Caracal
I am curious about where this "know somehow" about softlad comes from.


Good question! Thats got me thinking.

Well it isnļæ½t based on my knowledge of his past character certaintly. The man I knew would not run away from ANYTHING. Its more based on ļæ½typicalļæ½ wayward behaviour that I have viewed on these boards.

Waywards tend to follow the same script before the ļæ½crunch timeļæ½ of rock bottom hits 1) cake eating and lying to those they respect or 2) run away from all they respect and find ļæ½newļæ½ friends they can either lie to more effectively or who have no moral standards anyway.

Number one is not an option for him, thanks to Plan B and exposure. I donļæ½t know for a fact of course that he is doing no 2, it could be there genuinely is an opportunity abroad and he is leaving for career reasons. I just have a strong leaning towards the ļæ½running awayļæ½ theory.

Itļæ½s fairly sad but I donļæ½t view my H as my H any more, I just see him as an active wayward who pulls all the same stunts the others do.
Posted By: Maryse Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/20/12 07:40 PM
Sounds like running to me, an 'opportunity' to reinvent himself as somebody more worthy, of better character.
Where better than somewhere no one knows what the real deal is.

Problem is, waywards can't run from that person staring back at them in the mirror every day, and somewhere buried deep inside is the 'old' him/her.

My WH seems to be following pretty much the same path as yours. As far as I can see, the path is not leading anywhere, certainly not to a happy, fulfilling future.

Stay strong girl!
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/21/12 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Caracal
I am curious about where this "know somehow" about softlad comes from.


Good question! Thats got me thinking.

Well it isnļæ½t based on my knowledge of his past character certaintly. The man I knew would not run away from ANYTHING. Its more based on ļæ½typicalļæ½ wayward behaviour that I have viewed on these boards.
Good answer smile You have put into words (more concisely than I could too) what I have been thinking.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/21/12 07:30 AM
Originally Posted by Maryse
Sounds like running to me, an 'opportunity' to reinvent himself as somebody more worthy, of better character.
Where better than somewhere no one knows what the real deal is...

My WH seems to be following pretty much the same path as yours.
I think our WH's have all read the same wayward handbook. sigh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/22/12 12:54 PM
Oh dear. One of my cousins is a BW!

I do not know her as a grown up, but I used to stay with her family when I was little and she was an incredible, affectionate and bright girl (she lives miles away down south wich is why we dont see each other today). I did see her little family at a party for my grndmother a few years ago though. She has two lovely, bright eyed boys and a handsome caring husband.

A few days ago she confronted him about whether he was having an A and he cried and admitted it. He left to go stay with his best friend for the night.

She told her mother. Who told my aunt. Who told my mother. Who told me.

He came back the next day and she calls her mother saying they were going to work it out and she doesnt want anyone to know. She said you didnt tell anyone did you? So she says no and asks my aunt not to tell anyone else, and so on.

I dont have a way to contact her, I dont even know her married name.

I have asked for the name of the marriagebuilders site to be passed along to her. However it sounds as if she wants to sweep it under the rug.

Just dreadful, those poor kids.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/22/12 10:45 PM
My mother said a lovely thing tonight about the MB principles.

She has been doing her best to pass the message along to her sister that my cousin should check out the MB site and she was saying how much it had helped me.


She said that if softlad had been at all interested, we would have recovered our marriage.

She said that I had healed so much because of Plan B. She said: "We are not allowed to mention him at all to Indie, no matter what we might hear - and it IS better".

After ten minutes or so I said "That sounded like you meant better for all of you, not just me?"

She agreed and said: "Yes, because you have cut him out, we dont bother talking about him any more. Nothing he does will affect you, so there is no point worrying about him."

I was totally amazed by that. All this time I had assumed they were whispering like hell about him when I wasnt there.

And Plan B has helped them as much as me, because they dont have to worry about him hurting me! How amazing is that?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/22/12 10:51 PM
indie, this is great. This shows that Plan B helps whole families in addition to the betrayed spouse. Your family is supporting you in Plan B, and helping themselves by not allowing the toxic wayward to pollute their lives - excellent! hurray

I continue to be impressed by your personal growth and strength. And I commend you for reaching out to other posters in the remarkable way you have done.

Keep up the good work: for yourself, and on this site. smile

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/22/12 11:31 PM
Really cool. cool
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/23/12 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Keep up the good work: for yourself, and on this site. smile

blush

It is totally selfish, bliss. I get great 'how to live a good life' tips and perspective on people still hurting and so no reason to mope about 'poor me'

But thank you!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/23/12 06:39 PM
Indie, I actually got a bit teary eyed reading what your mom wrote. It IS true though. You being in Plan B, and healing well, has helped those around you. They don't have to worry about how you are doing, etc. I think that is one of the reasons I push it on people. So I can feel better about them not being tormented by the A any longer. How insightful that mom of yours is. You're still quite certain that I am not your older sister or anything right? LOL
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/23/12 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
You're still quite certain that I am not your older sister or anything right? LOL


All us BW Plan Bers are sisters! You are my teacher too!

Though actually I DO have Scottish heritage.... hmmm?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/28/12 01:44 PM
My solictor emailed me this morning with a 2x4 about not getting back to her on some things she needed in order to file.

So luckily cause I have the Blackberry I could get on that straight away. She is going away for a few weeks and my foot dragging is holding things up.

I want to be divorced but I hate the paperwork - and everything about getting divorce. I want it to be over but oddly I like that its a complex process. Because marriage means something and you cant just blink your way out.

I just hate being left with the mess to clean up.

But the nasty task is done now and I feel better.

I also have to talk to the job interview people to get feedback next week. Apparently my being late made not a jot of difference because I called and they just moved people around. Its a scoring system apparently and they're going to give me a breakdown of how I scored.

At least being late has made me overhaul how I do things and get myself organised. So that's something.

But Ive already heard that the woman who got the job is older and much more experienced.

This recessions stinks, too much competition for every job.

Well I have another application to fill in any way.

Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/29/12 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Well I have another application to fill in any way.
Good luck indie!

The breakdown of the scoring will help with any future interviews, so well done on following up with this.

Us Plan B'ers keep learning and growing grin

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/29/12 01:16 AM
Yes we do, sister-b
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/29/12 01:19 AM
WE DO learn, and grow, and not only do we SURVIVE, we THRIVE.

I was feeling a bit left out. grin

And I LOVE my Blackberry.

BTW, Car, you have mail.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/29/12 01:51 AM
Ah I love ya too Scott,

kiss
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 08:12 PM
Okay this is a q for the boys if there's any around?

Would you ever have facebook chatted a woman at 11pm - just because or does it always mean something?

Had my facebook page up last night and my usual 'show offline' status was off. Dude I work with popped up saying 'Yo yo yo Indie are you chilling after a long Sunday shift?'

Well I clicked offline so no chatting but I think I need to switch on my wary radar.

He's a BH who I recommended this site to. I wouldn't chat to him about his marriage tho. He tried a few times and gave up.

He didn't say anything off in the FB chat, but we aren't friendly at work at all. I think its odd to contact an acquaintance at best at that hour. Am I right?


Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 08:21 PM
CREEPY
Posted By: Viper Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Am I right?
Yep. He's definitely in fisherman mode.
Originally Posted by Scotland
CREEPY
Again, yep
Posted By: Amazin Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 08:56 PM
I don't chat on facebook. Messageļæ½ yes. Postļæ½ yes. But I donļæ½t usually chat on facebook.

You said he's a betrayed husband right? It could be that he's just missing his wife and lonely. He might just want to talk to someone who understands his situation, get advice and sympathy from. But that's what the MB forum is for.

Could it come across as creepy? Yes.. Fishingļæ½ yesļæ½

Because he's a coworker and you know him personally it seems like a dangerous temptation that I would avoid. Especially if heļæ½s lonely or both of you are lonely.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 08:59 PM
Indie, you know what to do right? I would UNFRIEND him. You're still married, and so is he. He's obviously letting down any boundaries he had(if he had any to begin with). Don't let your boundaries down. It's not worth it.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 09:47 PM
I wouldn't unfriend him.
I just would not chat with him via FB.

I don't think its creepy.

I DO think he is feeling the rollercoaster of emotions betrayed people feel and is vulnerable to
fishing

Just don't take the bait.

You can be kind but distant....yk?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:02 PM
Thanks Reading. I actually agree with your assessment in the main....

But I have always kind of thought he was creepy!

I couldnt tell you why. It isnt anything specific. As soon as I saw the 'creepy' comments roll in that made me laugh.

Its not worth leaving a boundary open just to keep someone I dont like as a FB friend, so out he goes.

Its had me all weirded out though.

I would NEVER call or text someone at 11. I might facebook chat someone - if we were VERY close. Like my sis or best mate. Girls as a rule.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Indie, you know what to do right? I would UNFRIEND him. You're still married, and so is he. He's obviously letting down any boundaries he had(if he had any to begin with). Don't let your boundaries down. It's not worth it.


I am actually now starting to wonder if he is a BH or if thats just the story of his divorce for work people.

Ill never know tho because there'll be a ten foot pole between me and him!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:05 PM
Why would you be kind to someone who has obviously weak boundaries? HE is married, Indie is married. He was trolling.

Why wouldn't you unfriend him from FB? It's just FB. I didn't tell her to run around telling people what he has done, or to shun him. I suggested that she end an avenue for him to contact her, so as not to have this happen again. I don't see the flaw in it.

I personally have very few male "friends" on FB. I had more before I came to MB and learned about boundaries. After I learned more about them, I decided that it would be safer to remove people who COULD be a temptation to me in any way. I removed old crushes, ex-bfs, etc, and I don't regret one delete I made. It protects ME, and THAT is what is important.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Thanks Reading. I actually agree with your assessment in the main....

But I have always kind of thought he was creepy!

I couldnt tell you why. It isnt anything specific. As soon as I saw the 'creepy' comments roll in that made me laugh.

Its not worth leaving a boundary open just to keep someone I dont like as a FB friend, so out he goes.

Its had me all weirded out though.

I would NEVER call or text someone at 11. I might facebook chat someone - if we were VERY close. Like my sis or best mate. Girls as a rule.

Do you know what that "creepy" feeling was with him? He always has had weak boundaries, you just didn't know what to call it before.

I have a co-worker who is like that too. He tried to friend me on FB last year. I declined.
Posted By: GJM Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Okay this is a q for the boys if there's any around?

Would you ever have facebook chatted a woman at 11pm - just because or does it always mean something?

Had my facebook page up last night and my usual 'show offline' status was off. Dude I work with popped up saying 'Yo yo yo Indie are you chilling after a long Sunday shift?'

Well I clicked offline so no chatting but I think I need to switch on my wary radar.

He's a BH who I recommended this site to. I wouldn't chat to him about his marriage tho. He tried a few times and gave up.

He didn't say anything off in the FB chat, but we aren't friendly at work at all. I think its odd to contact an acquaintance at best at that hour. Am I right?


In my opinion, you showing your availability on FB shows that it is ok to open up a dialogue with you or anyone that is online. I believe he is just trying to find someone to connect with about his situation.

You did the right thing by not engaging in converstion with him. You're in a vulnerable state and so is he. The good thing is that you knew better to engage. I don't think you need to unfriend him, but if he gives you a wrong feeling or impression, maybe you should.

For me, I long for human connection (which I get here alot), and I hate being alone. I have boundaries as well, but I find myself having to stop reaching for my friends because they have their own lives. In short, you did everything right IMO.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:18 PM
Quote
For me, I long for human connection (which I get here alot), and I hate being alone. I have boundaries as well, but I find myself having to stop reaching for my friends because they have their own lives. In short, you did everything right IMO.

Of course you crave human connection right now, but this is one MAJOR reason that the IMing feature has been disabled on this site. THis way, affairs can not begin between posters. THAT would be BAD BAD BAD.

I have exchanged email addresses with members of this board, but only FEMALE posters. THis is to protect myself, as well as them.
Posted By: GJM Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Quote
For me, I long for human connection (which I get here alot), and I hate being alone. I have boundaries as well, but I find myself having to stop reaching for my friends because they have their own lives. In short, you did everything right IMO.

Of course you crave human connection right now, but this is one MAJOR reason that the IMing feature has been disabled on this site. THis way, affairs can not begin between posters. THAT would be BAD BAD BAD.

I have exchanged email addresses with members of this board, but only FEMALE posters. THis is to protect myself, as well as them.


I agree. That is bad. And the one word that separates me from my WW is BOUNDARIES....I have them as do other BS here.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:31 PM
Quote
And the one word that separates me from my WW is BOUNDARIES....I have them as do other BS here.
AND ENFORCING THEM.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:37 PM



Originally Posted by Scotland
Why would you be kind to someone who has obviously weak boundaries? HE is married, Indie is married. He was trolling.


I sense a little bit of anger towards the nasty man trolling one of your plan b chicklets?? laugh

Dont worry hon, hes history.

Feel better?
Posted By: GJM Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:39 PM
Agreed
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Scotland
Why would you be kind to someone who has obviously weak boundaries? HE is married, Indie is married. He was trolling.


I sense a little bit of anger towards the nasty man trolling one of your plan b chicklets?? laugh

Dont worry hon, hes history.

Feel better?

You know what they say about mama bears and their cubs right? HEHEHEHE
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:45 PM
Done!

Unfriended.

I also changed settings so I am seen as offline. I turn it on sometimes to chat with girlfriends but since I am forgetful I wont do that any more as there is always a risk I will forget to put it back on.

At this rate I am going to end up with only ACTUAL friends on FB laugh
Posted By: Amazin Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Of course you crave human connection right now, but this is one MAJOR reason that the IMing feature has been disabled on this site. THis way, affairs can not begin between posters. THAT would be BAD BAD BAD.

My point exactly...

The MB forum is a safe place to... talk about, connect with... brainstorm with... and sympathize with other people who are in... or have been in the same situation you are in.

Facebook is not.

As far as boundaries go... You know what your boundaries are. You don't know what his are... So simply state your boundaries.

Like this...

Co-worker,

I see that you tried to chat with me on facebook the other day about your marital problems. Although I do sympathize with your situation, I feel that I'm in a vulnerable situation myself. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to chat or text someone of the opposite sex. Quite honestly it makes me feel uncomfortable. If you do need to talk to someone in a safe enviroment I'd suggest going to the MB forum.

I wouldn't nessasarily un-friend him. But, if he doesn't respect your boundaries ... Then un-friend him.

Just my 2 cents.... you're the commander on the ground and have the best feel for the situation and what was said.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:55 PM
Quote
At this rate I am going to end up with only ACTUAL friends on FB

I KNOW. I cut out almost 100 people. They weren't all male, but I also removed anyone who was a WS(except my SIL), and people whose lives were filled with DRAMA. I may need to do another round of thinning out of FB "friends."
Posted By: Amazin Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Done!

Unfriended.

I guess I need to learn how to type faster....LOL laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Amazin
I see that you tried to chat with me on facebook the other day about your marital problems. Although I do sympathize with your situation, I feel that I'm in a vulnerable situation myself. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to chat or text someone of the opposite sex. Quite honestly it makes me feel uncomfortable. If you do need to talk to someone in a safe enviroment I'd suggest going to the MB forum.


I dont know what he wanted to chat about on FB because I went offline immediately.

Funnily enough Amazin, I did say something along these lines when he raised his marital probs one day at work. He also mentioned hed been chatting about it to a female friend.

I said people in our sitch should only confide in same sex friends and I recommended the MB site. When he tried to raise his marital probs again, I just didnt engage.

Then a bit later on he was moaning about his wife having all male friends and said 'I dont think men and women can be friends do you?' I said 'no' just shot him a look and walked off.

I am only right now putting all this stuff together, but it doesnt add up.

I get betrayed, he gets betrayed

Then he says women are great to talk to about this stuff

So I say men and women cant be friends,

So he says the same

Then he goes against this with an FB message.

I think I was so busy ignoring him I didnt get on to it.
Posted By: Amazin Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/30/12 11:08 PM
Well... Like I said youļæ½re the commander on the ground and have the best "feel" for the situation.

Typing is one thing... But there are subtle perceptible nuances in face to face (or voice to voice) communications that are not perceptible in typed messages. So if heļæ½s saying things at work that are creeping you out... Go with your gut feeling.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/02/12 11:57 PM
Can you reach a point where you want to draw a line under Plan B?

I know that a D is a pretty final statement but I was thinking of going further. People can always get remarried after a D, after all.

The longer Plan B goes on without a concerted effort towards our marriage from him, the more I lose respect and motivation for the hard slog of a potential recovery.

If it gets to the point of a D, I am considering asking my IM to never pass on any message to me, even the 'I will do NC' messgage.

I would not do this now, I am nowhere near ready to pull that plug, but I have started thinking about it.

If we were to do recovery at this stage or a few months further on, I would not be able to respect the fact he held so stubbornly for so long to his lies. RH is my top need and I think it is draining my love bank quite effectively.

How did others manage an end to Plan Bing? Is it just a move into FU? I wouldnt do that, I would never want any contact with my unrepentant attacker.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/03/12 12:03 AM
Without the lifelong tie of children, I think that you can probably move away from ANY contact after a D. Like you said, you could just not get anything from IM anymore, and let it go.

The anger stage is pretty rampant about 6 months into recovery, either marital or personal. The best part, after you get that anger out is that you will feel more at peace. At least that's what I feel. I don't feel the betrayal as raw as I did. Now, anything that I feel is about the things he does NOW. That is only because of the kidlets, without them, I wouldn't know ANYTHING.

Let yourself get angry. Write it down(without EVER sending it to OW or Softlad), and then burn it. I think it's all a part of the process.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/03/12 12:16 AM
I dont feel any anger at all Scot. Maybe it will show up.

I get an exasperated head shaking feeling sometimes, that's about it. I dont feel love or respect for him.

Or rather I can feel it lessening.

My birthday by the way is on Valnetines Day.

I havent made any plans for the day. I am doing something on the weekend with girlfriends.

Is this a terrible idea. I think I will be fine, but I know how Plan B can fool you.

Basically everyone is coupled up and I dont want to grab anyone away from that for my birthday. I can celebrate at the weekend.

Thats not to say I cant do some indulgent stuff solo though, eh?
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/03/12 12:43 AM
I think your rose colored glasses are slipping off.



Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/03/12 12:45 AM
It's my puppy's 2nd birthday on VDay too.

I understand how you don't want to take anyone else away from the ones they love on VDay. You should still plan something for yourself. Celebrate YOUR day. Birthdays are a big deal in my family, they always have been. It was the one day where we got to stay home from school, pick what was for dinner, and what kind of cake we were going to have. Also, NO CHORES. Even if you just take a long bubble bath, and paint your toes, it's good for YOU to do SOMETHING to celebrate how wonderfully you have become. laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/06/12 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by reading
I think your rose colored glasses are slipping off.


Ive been thinking about this reading and sadly, I dont think they have.

I still think of him (when I allow this) as the man I want to be with and I would love to take a shot at recovery.

However feelings follow actions. If I want to draw a line under things, that's exactly what I must do.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/08/12 08:34 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by reading
I think your rose colored glasses are slipping off.


Ive been thinking about this reading and sadly, I dont think they have.

I still think of him (when I allow this) as the man I want to be with and I would love to take a shot at recovery.

However feelings follow actions. If I want to draw a line under things, that's exactly what I must do.
I totally get this indie... I'm thinking and feeling the same. About marriage and personal recovery.

In my mind I know what my marriage was, what is is now, and what it could be (with MB). I also know what my life in the future can be, without WH. For that, a line does need to be drawn to move forward without hestitation.

Is there a point where there is no going back for the BS? I think there is. But if I'm asking the question, I know I am not there yet... are you?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/08/12 01:26 PM
I have no idea!

He would have to do some pretty impressive hoop jumping to get my attention. I would give him the opportunity, thats all I know. Nothing he does may be enough at this point though.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/13/12 08:45 PM
I am amazed - completely amazed at how cool I feel today, the day before Valentines Day and my birthday.

I should be missing WH - shouldnt I? I've had to force myself to consider this, and when I do, I just get the feeling that all I am missing is his disappointing me!

Even though past Valentines Days were great, even the last one, I dont think of him in the past tense any more. I think of him in the present - as a wayward.

I am going in to work, going to share some cake with my colleagues. Then later I am getting all dressed up to go to McDonalds with a girlfiend, just for a laugh.

I feel brilliant. It's kind of astounding. Roll on 33.

I even (finally) went to get STD tested (dont shout! i know I should have done it before) When I enquired about it with a nurse, months ago. Just the idea of doing it made me cry. But the reality hasnt shook me up at all.

I dont think I am off the hook that easy, though. I am sure Plan B has a few more kinks and lows in the rollercoaster, before I can get off. Maybe one will even happen tomorrow. Im just going to be grateful for all the good days.
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/13/12 08:50 PM
Happy to hear your feeling awesome. It sounds like your dancing on your tippy toes. Have a great birthday.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/13/12 09:57 PM
Indie,

Your post is so wonderful, I can hear the peace in your words, the excitement about a new day and making it a good day for you and your friends.....
Tomorrow you think of this post and how cool you felt and how new beginnings are good too............new memories are good too..........
Happy Birthday Indie, 33 is so young so much life is left for you, don't waste it Indie...........
Have fun tomorrow, smile at everyone you see.........I still love watching couples in love it gives me hope that the whole world hasn't lost it.
Enjoy your day
Hey there Indie,

I think about taking my WXW back all the time (mostly because of the kids) and what she would have to do for me to even consider it.

But at this time after all the lies, the selfishness, the narcissism, and general craziness, I just have no attraction to her whatsoever anymore.

It's pretty weird because I used to lust for this woman.

You've been in Plan B since June. You've got no kids. You're a much stronger woman now. I'd say it's going to be pretty darn tough for Softlad to win you back.

TE
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/13/12 10:28 PM
Indie, I'm not all that surprised that you are feeling this way. I also won't be surprised if some sort of down feeling comes along tomorrow, for a bit, but you'll get through it.

SO, McD's all dressed up? That should be FUN. Make sure you take some pics, act a little silly. It'll be good on ya. smile

I find myself not all that saddened about tomorrow either, weird that. I'm not going to work though, I'm having a root canal(or at least the start of one since my tooth is still infected). AS my dad often reminds me, "Could be worse."

Happy Birthday lil sis(I still refuse to be mama bear to you and Car, so too bad :P )
Posted By: Viper Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/14/12 11:16 AM
Happy 33rd Birthday and Valentine's day indie! Hope you have a GREAT day!!!
Posted By: estrela Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/14/12 03:16 PM
Indie! Happy Birthday! Enjoy your day, and if you need a big boost, just remember how many people you've been supporting and advising here, myself included, of course! Thanks!

Posted By: minjo Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/14/12 03:47 PM
Happy Birthday, Indie! I don't know if we ever crossed our path on this forum, but I read many of your posts and appreciate your insights and wisdom.
Posted By: Maryse Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/14/12 05:54 PM
Many happy returns Indie. Keep on doing what you're doing, and grow stronger every day!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/14/12 10:50 PM
I've had a lovely day! So nice to read all the best wishes from my MB family too! Love you guys xx
Happy Birthday Indie HappyBirthday
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/15/12 08:48 PM
Yay balloons!
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/16/12 01:00 AM
Happy Belated Birthday!

Luvs me some Indie!
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/17/12 08:32 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I've had a lovely day! So nice to read all the best wishes from my MB family too! Love you guys xx
Glad to hear you had a great b'day! Bet you had some fun with the Happy McD's glam fest. And some curious looks!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/17/12 10:37 AM
Its not belated, Surfer. I am taking the whole week as my birthday. I deserve it.

Caracel we had a great time! Then we went to see the Woman in Black which was unintentionally funny, but made us jump out of our skins!

Posted By: Maryse Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/17/12 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Then we went to see the Woman in Black which was unintentionally funny, but made us jump out of our skins!

Agh! That's almost a plot spoiler, I'm gonna see him not be Harry Potter tonight with my mates laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/19/12 06:10 PM
I want to confess, everyone as I totally broke Plan B.

My mother told me she had been asked by my brother in law (an old friend of both mine and softlad) whether it was ok for him to ask me something.

I remember thinking 'I am feeling so much better, why not just hear this?' and I sorta groaned and said: 'What is it?'

She told me Softlad wanted a flask that his friend, the OWs late husband, had given him on our wedding day as his best man.

The total irony, eh? He wants a symbol of that friendship, after boinking the poor man's widow and dancing on his grave. Given to him on the day he made vows he has completley spat on.

I was about to say 'Oh just tell him he can have it' When it filtered into my brain how I was breaing Plan B. I really had been about to respond! WHAT was I thinking?

I told my mother to respond that I had not let her give me the message and that I would not receive any message other than through the right channels of my IM.

I mentioned it to my sister and she was asked to pass the message on by him first - but told him no. She did not look impressed.

I need to get a message to SL through my IM to stop using our friends as go betweens - it is not fair to anyone.

I spent a good ten minutes afterwards thinking about his lousy attitude. Ten minutes which could have been spent painting my toenails.

I am so sorry everyone. Particularly to the newer Plan Bers I am supposed to be setting an example to.

Trust me though, it is not worth allowing any breaks of light. You think you feel ok. You think you can handle it. You think the info might inform you.

But it is without exception a load of garbage that you can do without hearing. If it were not it would be able to go through the IM.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/19/12 07:26 PM
That isn't breaking it.
You are fine and don't send any message to SL about it.

Nothing.

Move on and beware of what causes you pain and learn from it and deal with hiccups when they come.
Originally Posted by reading
That isn't breaking it.
You are fine and don't send any message to SL about it.

Nothing.

Move on and beware of what causes you pain and learn from it and deal with hiccups when they come.

Yup, you are learning
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/19/12 09:23 PM
It's not the first time he has tried this though. The last time I decided to let it go, but I cant keep letting him try different go betweens.

Yes I should have said no to the message, but even saying no is not enough - it shouldnt have been there in the first place.

Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/20/12 04:42 AM
argh, indie, why would your mother even ask to tell you that? banghead

no damage done. if anything, you learned something, and that's a lesson to others. dark means dark! (and yes, he's a total tool for asking for that particular item! i expect him to try to break plan b though.)

hang in there; you're still doing great!
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/20/12 05:01 PM
Indie:

Your resolve has always been a beacon to me. I slip up, too. We are human. But we both know the costs of straying from our plans: needless pain.

Keep being strong. It's who you are!

Cheers,
SP
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 02/20/12 11:44 PM
Don't be so hard on yourself. It's a testament to how well you have been doing that you believe that this was a break in Plan B. You can feel the difference this little bit of grey has been for you.

I agree with Reading. He didn't send the message through the proper channels so......NOTHING. I am quite certain that had he sent it through your IM, you would have considered giving him the flask. WHat a silly wayward Softlad is.

Stay strong.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/04/12 07:32 PM
Uh - been sick with crazy flu for the past two weeks.

Today is the first day I feel halfway normal. At least I hope so, as I have a maths exam tomorrow that I've been too sick to revise for. Plus I also missed my interview for my university place! Luckily I was able to rearrange one - but it will only get me on a resrve list.

I had amazing weekend plans for this weekend and last - which I couldn't do. And my Plan B has scraped the bottom of the rollercoaster more than once this past fortnight because I felt more abandoned than ever.

A few tips for plan Bers - prepare for bad weeks as well as good weekends.

Get your medicine cabinet stocked up - you will be irrationally angry that there is no one to go the pharmacy for you elsewise.

Find a takeout that does great chicken noodle soup and put the number with your flu kit.

Get some paper plates, cups and plastic cutlery. If its proper flu you will be hard pushed to pour cough medicine - you will not be equal to doing the dishes.

Find a buddy or relative that will come and help out, if you need it. Make the pact to do the same for them. If you have an angel for a mother as I do, you won't need this step.

Its funny but after this week, I feel like it is more than ever too late for softlad. He could be forthright and fearless in facing his demons, at this stage I feel past it.

Up until the point I am divorced, I would hear him out and I would encourage him to get help, most likely here.

I don't think I care enough though. That's sad but also sort of a landmark. After all Plan B is first and foremost for my personal recovery
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/08/12 12:32 AM
So my divorce is going pretty well. My solicitor told me today that Softlads solicitors are dragging their feet and using the excuse of his being abroad to slow down the process. Its very irritating that he can neither keep hold of me, nor let me go.

Regardless, my solicitor is having none of that and is keeping a fire lit under them.

I'm hoping I will be divorced by September. I know its not for everyone, combining Plan D with Plan B, but I feel a real drive to do this. The divorce is the only contact I have with him and I know I will feel better with that contact gone.

That said I feel pretty good anyway. My health seems back to normal and my spirits have risen with it. I pulled an all nighter revising last night studying for my maths test. I have a pretty fancy degree and usually am a good student, but in algebra I have met my Waterloo. Missing two weeks of class has not helped.

I had to take freq breaks and see what everyone on here was up to just to keep sane.

Anyway I think I failed it. The thing is, I'm pretty sure I will conquer it eventually, this summer if I have to.

When you have kicked a wayward out of your world and put together a whole new life together for yourself, there isn't anything you can't do.

I want to see an army of Plan Bers conquering the world!
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/08/12 02:51 AM
just checking in, indy. can i add something to your plan b preparadness list?

figure out who/how to deal with the need to squash/remove a nasty bug! (literal bug!)

an unexpected issue!

:-)
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/08/12 03:16 AM
Algebra. Dang. I used to be good at that subject, but nothing like 20 years of not using something to forget the order of operations!

You are right though.....you WILL conquer it.

Thanks for the update!
Originally Posted by indiegirl
When you have kicked a wayward out of your world and put together a whole new life together for yourself, there isn't anything you can't do.

I want to see an army of Plan Bers conquering the world!

Yes Indie, you SHALL overcome..

I failed math since 6th grade, no matter how hard I tried, I could not get into it.
The combination of being a young boy and all the in family issues I had to deal with, left no room for math, even though the teacher knew I was able, and I could do it when pushed, I never cared about it.

Then at 28, I had a chance to get into a electronics course at work, in a Navel ordinance plant. It was about transistor design, and I had to have high school algebra.

Not even remembering simple times tables and how to do long division well, I knew it was an area I could shine in, if I tried. My motivation? I had worked hard all my life, had a new wife and little girl, and I wanted to work smart, and provide a good living and environment for my family.

You still have that in front of you, a very possible dream. Along with a possible Man who would appreciate what you have been through, and help you forget it, because you will live in a new life. The motivation gives us strength to keep going, to overcome obsticals, fearlessly, and to adapt to what we are not used to.

As it turned out, I passed the pre-test and got into the class,(with the help from a friend who brought me over the night before the test, for some algebra basics. He was an E engineer)
The class was full of college educated Engineers, people who knew calculus,scientific notation, simultaneous equations, and all I knew was V/R=I, and I did not fully understand that.

But I was motivated, and interested, and excited to make that long awaited career, that would be positive and help support my family, and contribute to the world as best as I could.

I soon shook off all fear, fear of asking dumb questions, of becoming one of those people who talked about stuff the layman did not understand, of being changed.

Of course I did ask dumb questions,(although no question is really dumb), and I struggled, but I came out at the top of the class. The only guy who beat my 90.4 Grade average, was a guy who just had to take the class, because he had to re-certify. He slept most the class, and the teacher said he could have been teaching it.

Have faith, dive in, and don't let it scare you. You are definitely smart enough, and its just another language, which expresses its own values. If I can get it, lol, anyone can, and I still don't know my times tables, and only simple calculators were allowed, no scientific, there was no cheating, only cheat yourself really.

If someone else can do it, so can you, you have the tools, and I believe too, that plan B'ers, because they are real people, and take responsibility for who they are, should be the people who reign in this world, right under God, who is in charge.

God bless you
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/08/12 01:06 PM
Indie, I myself often recommend that BSs enter Plan B even if they want to head straight to Plan D. Plan B is about removing yourself from the drama, and other than the occasional court appearances, I don't see any need to communicate directly with the person whom you are divorcing.

In this crazy new world, it's always said that you should remain friends. Who are they kidding? MOST marriages do NOT end amicably. There are so many hurt feelings, and many times someone has committed adultery, so who would want to remain friends with someone like that?

In my case, I am actually going to stay in Plan B for as long as my WH continues his adultery with OW. Even if that is for the rest of my life, I won't communicate directly with him. There's no need. I may even continue Plan B even if his affair ends, it depends on HIM.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/08/12 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
In this crazy new world, it's always said that you should remain friends. Who are they kidding?


I couldnt agree more, Scot. For a start I dont believe that men and women can be friends. Acquaintances sure, but you cant share deep stuff with a man without building up a love bank. Especially when you have a romantic history together.

I would never stay friends with an ex, unless I was single and the ex was a catch. Because there is always the chance of the spark reigniting unexpectedly. I also hope to remarry one day and I would never expect my husband to put up with my 'friendship' with an ex. Even if he were ok with that, that would just make me worry about HIS boundaries!

Plus being friends with a wayward, even a female one, is just insane.

Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/08/12 08:46 PM
I hope this does not trigger you -- but my first thought about the flask that he is asking for, is that I would smash it to pieces with the nearest hammer.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/08/12 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Lexxxy
my first thought about the flask that he is asking for, is that I would smash it to pieces with the nearest hammer.


Hahahahaha!

I must be doing SO much better, because this did not occur to me at all! I very rarely get angry these days. Plan B is a wonder.


Originally Posted by Lexxxy
I hope this does not trigger you


In fact the flask does not hold any negative connotations for me at all. It was gift given on my wedding day from our friend, the best man, to my DH. It has always been a reminder to both of us of a wonderful day and the great friendship between my husband and DF right up until his death.

Right now, if I were to have it near me much, it would be a trigger of my romantic feelings for my husband. that is anti-Plan B, so it is at my mothers along with all the other romantic triggers, including my rings. It doesnt trigger me to talk about these things but it is strange the power that physical objects can have over you.

If we were to recover I dont think it would be an A trigger. Although now it might be a tigger of how entitled he was during my Plan B to ask for it!!!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/14/12 08:00 PM
I need FB expertise, oh wise ones.

Is it possible to set it up so that no one can add you as a friend?

I know I can just decline, but I'd rather not get messages at all.

This guy got talking to me at my interview today and I thought he was overly friendly. We were wearing name badges and he was very interested in my surname asking had 'they spelled it right'.

I squelched him and gave a cool reply, but my name is v unusual and it is super easy to find me on FB.

I would quit for my boundaries if need be but I really like keeping in touch with friends and family overseas. Some have been amazingly supportive of my Plan B.

Today I realised that I don't like being so accessible to strangers and there is no reason to be. If I wanted to add someone, I would and if they wanted to add me they would need to be a RL friend who has another way to contact me and ask.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/14/12 08:10 PM
You could always make your page private though I'm not sure that would help at all.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/14/12 08:11 PM
Indie, when you can go on FB, go to your privacy settings and you will see "How you connect" and click on edit settings. You can change that from "everyone" to only "friends of friends". That was the only thing I could find and should help a little bit
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/14/12 08:29 PM
That should do. Its strangers I'm worried about. FoF will know I won't date because I'm pretty vocal about it.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/14/12 10:01 PM
I had a customer try to add me on FB once. She had a pic of her cat, so I didn't even know who it was. All it said was, "I am a customer at STORE." I clicked, IGNORE. I mean come on, I'm not that desperate for friends.

Yea, the FB privacy should be enough. I don't mind just ignoring people, but I don't get too many requests that I don't want. What I have a hard time with is when co-workers friend me, especially male ones, and I don't WANT to add them. That's where it's hard because I have to explain to them, face to face, why I ignored them.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/14/12 10:27 PM
Those are the explanations I don't want to have to do to men on the course, if I get on it.

Plus admiration is a high need of my mine. Getting added on FB by an interested man (even if it is a totally lame and creepy way to approach a woman) is tecnically admiration.

Keeping those boundaries HIGH! Its amazing what you think to do, when you start looking.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/17/12 06:01 PM
I'm so silly. Checked Facebook and those are already my privacy settings! I don't even remember doing that. One time a stranger sent me an odd req though. I must have changed it then.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/17/12 10:57 PM
I don't know why I still get surprised when things happen the way Dr H says they will.

I think I have reached that stage in Plan B where a 'divorce will hurt less'. In fact, I don't think it will hurt at all.

I haven't thought about softlad in ages and when I read those agonised words of love from earlier in my thread, I don't recognise myself.

I don't hate him. I just don't want him.

For ages I thought this was because I'd gotten so good at vetting my thoughts. But today I gave myself free reign to relive our most romantic highlights (they're good, too) and ...nothing.

I pictured him returning hat in hand with signs of repentance too serious to ignore. Brave honesty and unflinching accepting of friends and familt criticism., Even posting on here as a FWH, dispensing hard won wisdom and the secret to making amends (An early fantasy of mine).

Still nothing. I can't fantasise, it falls flat. I'm in a hurry for the divorce, truth be told.

I am constantly amazed at the lovebank and how it works as Dr H described.

I know full well my 'unending' love as I once thought it, is well frozen and will never trouble me again if I leave it be.

But I also know not to get cocky and allow contact. What was once, can be again and its important to stay dark for life to prevent my feelings being reignited, as they well could be.

I can't seem to do it with thoughts, but actions carry more weight as we all know.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/17/12 11:13 PM
I went looking for the quote, and found a clip instead!

From the movie Strange Days;



Memory and fantasy just won't cut the mustard any more, Indie.

Not. Any. More.

Those great romantic memories will need a frame of reference in the present to have any impact.

No mementos? Photos? Memerobilia?

Good! The memories will fade lacking context for reconstruction.

The "ghost units" in your LB$ will fade as those memories lose context.


The less of a frame of reference you have, the less potent any memory - and any emotional effect it could render - will become.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/17/12 11:32 PM
Yeah absolutely. I subscribed to the theory of Plan B and its happening for real now.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/18/12 04:18 AM
Huggles.

Plan B is powerful stuff.

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Good! The memories will fade lacking context for reconstruction.

The "ghost units" in your LB$ will fade as those memories lose context.


The less of a frame of reference you have, the less potent any memory - and any emotional effect it could render - will become.

Your not gonna talk about engrams and start a chapter of the Church of Scientology are you HHH?

You know about L Ron Hubbard and "Dianetics" right?

The best times I have with God are the times I have alone, and even if fueled with the human experience, emotion, rationalization and philosophy, life would be an empty gesture if it were not for His covering.

Ok..save that for another day, or another thread..CP

Indie, you certainly do get it, and have gotten it, fast. Now you have gotten "over" WH...

Where is that book you are going to write? Looking forward to seeing great things from you. Even if I/We never know your real name, who you are is yet someone/thing of character we can trust will bring about great things.

That is why..I trust in the invisible God, not because of visible things, because that is only illusion anyways.

Hebrews 11:27
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

You are definatly moving forward
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I don't know why I still get surprised when things happen the way Dr H says they will.

Understatement, lol. Yeah why are we surprised?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/18/12 06:45 AM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Good! The memories will fade lacking context for reconstruction.

The "ghost units" in your LB$ will fade as those memories lose context.


The less of a frame of reference you have, the less potent any memory - and any emotional effect it could render - will become.

Your not gonna talk about engrams and start a chapter of the Church of Scientology are you HHH?

You know about L Ron Hubbard and "Dianetics" right?

The best times I have with God are the times I have alone, and even if fueled with the human experience, emotion, rationalization and philosophy, life would be an empty gesture if it were not for His covering.

Ok..save that for another day, or another thread..CP

Indie, you certainly do get it, and have gotten it, fast. Now you have gotten "over" WH...

Where is that book you are going to write? Looking forward to seeing great things from you. Even if I/We never know your real name, who you are is yet someone/thing of character we can trust will bring about great things.

That is why..I trust in the invisible God, not because of visible things, because that is only illusion anyways.

Hebrews 11:27
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

You are definatly moving forward

rotflmao

I remember seeing the TV commercials for that book when I was a kid; it marketed as some kind of self-help thing.

I've never read it, though.


Been a while, CP. I hope you are continuing to build strength in your faith, sir.

/tj
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
]
I remember seeing the TV commercials for that book when I was a kid; it marketed as some kind of self-help thing.

I've never read it, though.


Been a while, CP. I hope you are continuing to build strength in your faith, sir.

/tj

Oh, you don't know about Dianetics or the church of Scientology?

Ron Hubbard said he could create a religion, from a book. It is now the church of Scientology.

Its premise is that people hurt you, and it stays inside you, until you talk it out, and that cures you.

I read the book, and it is another blind alley, for people who just can't get it, that people are blind, especially those who won't see.

Lol, people are not good. Lol yeah I said it. But they can be enlightened, and inspired, from something outside of themselves.

Gee how many times do we gotta learn that? Seems like every day.

I Thank God for him reaching ME! I am truly blessed.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/19/12 12:08 AM
Thanks everyone.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Where is that book you are going to write?

Well, I need to sort the divorce, finish my maths qualification, restart my career path, redecorate, do up the garden, rent out my house and then get over my cripping fear of trying this and failing. Everything I write looks like garbage. But it won't forever. I do believe that.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/19/12 01:27 AM
Indie, I'm sure that nothing you write is garbage. You're probably just like me, your own worst critic.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/19/12 01:33 AM
Quote
Everything I write looks like garbage
I doubt this. Do you know who Stephen King is? He's a novelist over here, but has sold books and movies worldwide. He wrote his first novel and thought so little of it that he threw it in the trash. His wife dug it out and submitted it for him. The name of the novel was "Carrie" - and it was history after that.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/19/12 01:33 AM
Okay, I never knew that. WOW.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/19/12 01:38 AM
I know (huge steven king fan). Its very common. Margaret Mitchell begged her publishers for the Gone with the Wind copy back because she was so ashamed of it. I think its part of being a good writer and working on your craft.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/19/12 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
His wife dug it out and submitted it for him. The name of the novel was "Carrie" - and it was history after that.


This is the kind of spouse I need!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/19/12 01:02 PM
Stephanie Meyer never intended for anyone else to read Twilight. What a shame that would have been eh?

You're doing so great Indie.

It's funny. I used to be a bot jealous of the BSs who got to experience MR, and now, I'm a little jealous over the BSs who get PR faster than me. I know it's not a race, and we all need to take our own time. I'm HAPPY for you.

Keep it up, chica. smile
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/19/12 07:10 PM
Quote
Well, I need to sort the divorce, finish my maths qualification, restart my career path, redecorate, do up the garden, rent out my house and then get over my cripping fear of trying this and failing. Everything I write looks like garbage. But it won't forever. I do believe that.

Indie:
I started a screenplay several years ago. It's crap, too. Who knows if I'll finish it. But the writing of it and the thinking of it has led to so many other things.

You never know WHAT your creative efforts will result in, and you never know WHERE they will take you.

Go for it!

SP
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/22/12 08:36 PM
Arghhhh. My Plan B refuses to twinkle and sparkle in the impressive way I want it to sometimes.

I have been turned down by every college I applied to train as a teacher with. One didn't even bother replying. The one I interviewed for said I showed 'impressive oral and written communication skills' but that I needed to improve my knowledge regarding 'teaching and learning' and that I needed to improve the way I spoke about my teaching experience in schools.

I dont get it. I said SO MUCH about my time in schools, with detailed examples and everything. I have a top, first class English degree and seven years experience as journalist and I still dont make the cut simply to STUDY to become an English teacher? It sounds like they want me to know everything about the educational system before I even begin!

So do I apply next year? What do I do in the mean time?

I hate how competitive this recession has made every job post and college place.

Maybe it is one of Mortarman's walls. Imagine how competitive it would be to actually get a job if college places are this cut throat.

I hate my job though, and I am seeing nothing else advertised right now. It may be time to revist travelling or cruise ship idea. However I cant do that till the summer maths exams are done.

One of my old co workers also contacted me to tell me he has a book out. A fantasy novel. GREAT. Trying to be pleased for him, but that's my dream!

Have to put my thinking cap on.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/22/12 09:15 PM
All in good time my friend.

I know how we want changes to happen in Plan B. We want to feel like we have some semblance of control in our lives again.

Our lives have changed so drastically from what we imagined we were gonna have, and we want to get on with our new lives, and fast. You've got time.

I also wish that I could get a new job. Actually, I desire an actual career, and I will get there. As long as the steps I am taking gets me closer, that's the direction I need. Remember, it's WALLS AND DOORS.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/22/12 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
I know how we want changes to happen in Plan B. We want to feel like we have some semblance of control in our lives again.

Our lives have changed so drastically from what we imagined we were gonna have, and we want to get on with our new lives, and fast. You've got time.

I also wish that I could get a new job. Actually, I desire an actual career, and I will get there. As long as the steps I am taking gets me closer, that's the direction I need. Remember, it's WALLS AND DOORS.
Wise words Scotty. Indie, I like how you are weighing up the options you have and exploring alternatives that may appeal.

I know after D Day I went full speed ahead with some sort of crazed "I'll proove my life can be better without him" sort of mentality. I was going for interviews when I could barely breathe let alone work. Funny enough, I got offered the three jobs I was interviewed for, but realised there was no way I was up to the task, it was just too soon (and involved moving from my support networks). A month or so ago I applied for a job that REALLY appealed and I am so ready for it... and I have heard nothing. Not even an interview.

Yesterday I got a poaching phone call from the neighbouring state I want to move to... the job and city are not what I had originally planned, but its another option and a different door when I thought there might only be a wall. A nice reminder for me that I never know when I might find the next door.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/22/12 10:08 PM
Ive just got to keep casting out those nets, and keep searching.

While theres no deadline per se, and I am happy in the main, I wont be happy thinking I'm missing opportunities.

If I know Ive got my bases covered, I can be content.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/25/12 12:45 AM
Just been out dancing with my MIL. Oh wow she is so much fun! Word of warning though, don't go out drinking with an Irishwoman. Luckily we kept mostly to the dancefloor. I danced the heel off my shoe.

She says to me: "I know you don't want to hear much in the way of softlad. Anyway all I'll tell you is he sent me a huge bouquet and a big card on Mother's Day.He's still a gobshite though.
"His brother is lovely and somehow his wife is awful. Yet my muleheaded son found himself an angel".

I do love her. I wonder if we can stay friends. Tonight was fun if nothing else.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I do love her. I wonder if we can stay friends. Tonight was fun if nothing else.

Sounds like she is already your friend, a keeper
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I know (huge steven king fan). Its very common. Margaret Mitchell begged her publishers for the Gone with the Wind copy back because she was so ashamed of it. I think its part of being a good writer and working on your craft.

The artist is very picky about their own work, and that is part of the process
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/03/12 06:30 PM
So I'm having the oddest Plan B week. I think I'm having a low on the rollercoaster, but things have levelled out so much that I can barely feel the dip, so Im not sure.

I'm not in any pain. I havent cried. I can't sleep though. Im getting sleepy but my mind is too busy. This never happened to me before DDay - I could win awards for deep sleeping. The night OW made a slip of the tongue and first made me suspicious was the first time I ever missed a night's sleep. Now whenever I have had a low rollercoaster point, I got insomnia. But this time I dont have any particularly low feelings to go with it.

I was pretty knocked flat by my teaching plan falling through, and I dont feel like my Plan B is going as well with no firm future plans in place. I was going to give myself a break and then start looking into other options. Maybe thats all it is .
Indiegirl, I feel for you about the job situation and career situation. It sounds like you have a passionate desire to teach. I'm not sure where you live, but sometimes a good way to get a foot in the door is substitute teaching. Or, since you have experience in journalism, what about advancing your journalism degree and teaching at a junior college? Also, if you're closer to a metropolitan area, there may be cooperative schools for homeschooling families and they LOVE someone who has experience to share. Or perhaps see if you can volunteer in a school to work with a school newspaper or yearbook? Or could you go straight to teaching in a private school? If you have some flexibility about what you are going to do next in life, but know which direction you'd like to go, there are sometimes very non-traditional paths to take to get where you'd like to be.

I suffer from insomnia regularly and its always a matter of unresolved stresses and fears. Journaling can help sometimes, but others I just have to learn to live with less sleep. smile Not the best solution! I hope yours resolves soon so you can feel fresh and ready to take on each day for all the opportunities it presents.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/03/12 07:38 PM
Yeppers, write it out.

And get off of the computer at a decent time. wink

What about caffeine intake? I know that sometimes that affects my ability to sleep.

Just take care of yourself. laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/03/12 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
What about caffeine intake? I know that sometimes that affects my ability to sleep.


Its pretty bad. A chicken and egg situation. I need to get all sgt major on myself!
Its the stress, don't try to beat yourself up and expect to be at peace.

Let yourself off the hook,(while watching out for new ones?)
Think positively, and by that I mean expect good things to happen..

Par for the plan B course

Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/05/12 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I'm not in any pain. I havent cried. I can't sleep though. Im getting sleepy but my mind is too busy. This never happened to me before DDay - I could win awards for deep sleeping. The night OW made a slip of the tongue and first made me suspicious was the first time I ever missed a night's sleep. Now whenever I have had a low rollercoaster point, I got insomnia. But this time I dont have any particularly low feelings to go with it.
Gee, I am glad you posted this. Prior to separation and D Day, I could be the sleeping dead. I'm not kidding, ear-plugs in, and I slept through elephants brushing against the tent, and lions roaring beside me. Once I got an inkling of an affair however... I have to say I have not really had a proper night sleep (like pre D Day)since. I like my sleep, so that in itself drains my lovebank lol!

For me, it has largely been my mind too busy with unanswered questions. Since confirming who OW actually was, this has dramatically decreased (even though I didn't know at the time, my subconscious brain must have been ticking it over). I am still very careful on the caffeine, and since sleeping tablets haven't worked for me, when I need a good nights sleep I have taken over-the-counter antihistamines that seem to knock me out. Phernagon, its called here.

Now here is the weird thing (and sorry for the tj Indie). I read about you and Scotty having dreams upon entering Plan B. I had none. Since confirming OW's identity... I am having many.

Let me know if you find any cures for the insomnia. I have tried some natural ones that didn't work. Exercise as well. I wonder about trying some meditation... or a friend recommended hypnosis.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/05/12 11:07 AM
I have been hypnotized(although it was in a bar and it was for fun), and it will only work if you believe it will work. It does work very well though. I used self-hypnosis while I was in labour.

I like to read before I go to sleep. Only problem is, sometimes I like the book so much I wind up staying awake to read it. wink
Meditation, or self hypnosis, works pretty well. It is the emptying of the mind of thought, and it is extremely hard when you are under stress, because we are in fear at that place.

Use your imagination to put your mind in a different place. I know it sounds irresponsible, but really, what else can you do, and how much will worry get you?

When practiced long enough, you will be amazed at all the thoughts running around in the back of your mind, that are causing you stress. The trick is, to let them go, and not try to force them. Don't let the fear/anxiety have a place in your mind, let it go.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/05/12 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Its the stress, don't try to beat yourself up and expect to be at peace.

Let yourself off the hook,(while watching out for new ones?)


Thanks CP. I needed to hear that. I am letting myself off hooks, but sometimes I can be hard on myself. It seems to require herculean efforts to get a new job right now, and I don't have it in me. I know I talk about how healed I am, my personal recovery etc but that's just in comparison to how I was a year ago. I still have much lower energy levels than the 'real me' but I am happy so long as I see progress.

Originally Posted by Caracal
Now here is the weird thing (and sorry for the tj Indie). I read about you and Scotty having dreams upon entering Plan B. I had none. Since confirming OW's identity... I am having many.


When you said this I was stunned. I totally did not remember having dreams about them. But then it started to come back a bit. I still cant really remember what the dreams were about though. How odd, you would think Id remember them vividly.

I may look into hypnotherapy. I feel I just need a 'tweak', a bit more energy, more sleep and so much would be better. I should probably go back to yoga class too. They used to wrap up with meditation.
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/06/12 01:35 AM
hi indy. i saw your post about the teaching earlier, and then got lost, but wanted to come back in and ask you some things.

what country do you live in?
are you open to additonal non-subject-specific training (affordable, can spare time, etc)?
does your country offer a special secondary training program for those with degrees?

after reading so much of your writing, i am just astonished at you not getting into the program of your choice!

i agree, substitute teaching is a great way to get a foot in the door.

please be taking care of yourself. sleep is vital to your mental and physical health. perhaps, like when children are babies, you need to try a night time routine for yourself?

be kind to yourself.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/06/12 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by Letty
hi indy. i saw your post about the teaching earlier, and then got lost, but wanted to come back in and ask you some things.

what country do you live in?
are you open to additonal non-subject-specific training (affordable, can spare time, etc)?
does your country offer a special secondary training program for those with degrees?

after reading so much of your writing, i am just astonished at you not getting into the program of your choice!

i agree, substitute teaching is a great way to get a foot in the door.

please be taking care of yourself. sleep is vital to your mental and physical health. perhaps, like when children are babies, you need to try a night time routine for yourself?

be kind to yourself.


Hi Letty,

I live in the UK and yes, there are training programs for people with degrees. I first tried to apply for Teach First, a sheme which gets people with First Class degrees (the top ten per cent of graduates) into teaching, (I do have a First, in English Literature and Language luckily) by paying them a salary and training them in school. Because you get paid to train it's very popular and I didnt even get an interview, in spite of my local school saying they would hire me if Teach First granted me a place and the funding.

People said I would have to bite the bullet and pay for my own training, so I applied for a Post Graduate Certificate in Education at nnearby universities and everyone said that with my First, and my industry training in journalism I would be guaranteed a place, if I was paying for it (ļæ½9000 for a one year course, which is roughly $14,000).

Unfortunately the government has made quite a lot of teaching assistants redundant in the past few years. These people, who were earning minimum wage, and were then out of a job qualified for financial aid to get degrees and now I am competing against people who have BOTH schools experience and degrees. two uiversities didnt offer me an interview and the one that did said I didnt know enough about teaching techniques.

The main fly in the ointment is I dont have my high school maths qualification yet. I'm pretty sure this is why I didnt get on the Teach First scheme. You can't be a teacher in the UK without your English, Maths and Science high school certificates. I could only apply for three universities without having the qualification, on the understanding I would have it by the start of the semester (I sit my maths exams in June).

I may have a chance during the university clearance in august. This is the few weeks in summer where universities offer last minute places, but that doesnt really apply to PGCE as they are usually booked up a year in advance. I could also apply for Teach First again, but it would be next September now!

I just want to forget about it for a few weeks then go at it again.

Yes I do need sleep and a sleep routine!

Unfortuantely with my crazy job as a daily newspaper reporter some days I start work at 7.30am, other shifts start at 2pm!

This never mattered until Dday as I had a gift for falling asleep wherever, whenever.

I am thinking of getting a 'leapfrog' job. An admin job or the like with more regular hours, flexi time and less stress. Plus without my crazy commute and so much of my salary going on petrol. (ļæ½50 a week! thats $80!)

That way I might be able to fit in more schools experience around the job - or at least get time to recharge and rethink.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Hi Letty,

I live in the UK and yes, there are training programs for people with degrees. ...

I read the first part of your response, and it struck me as funny..Isn't a degree training enough, that you shouldn't need to go get more?

(Ok, now back to your regularly scheduled program..) weightlifter
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/06/12 11:31 AM
Yes CP - it is totally stupid! Government claptrap.
Hey Indie, talking about education, I would like to talk about education...yeah, its me, and I like to talk..

When I was a kid, I read a lot, but being brought up in a rural backwoods New England town, it was kinda tough.

Se my Dad was old school farm stock, and could not read and write well, but bless his heart, he wanted me to get an education. Now as a little boy, I was raised to respect my elders, and work. "A hard days work never hurt anyone.."and so on.

My Dad worked too much, many times from 6 AM till he went to work at GE at 3 PM till he got home at 11:30 PM, sleep, repeat daily. He knew nothing BUT work, and he drove himself crazy with it too.

Mom was also a worker, and a salt of the earth kind of social and involved women, always faithful, to God and her family, and quite a looker too. Yup two awesomely hardheaded and disciplined people, who had the best intentions, so I better pull my weight,lol.

But I read a lot, and was a frustrated over-acheiver, with a marked complex and questioned my ability to wipe my nose properly. You know..Am I working hard enough? Did I do this right? Am I an idiot? Stuff like that.

When I was 22, after my first marriage broke up, and also after going from a burned out teenager to a married man at 18, a surprise father,(Wife stopped taking the pill a week before we got married? SURPRISE!)... Then to a management position, which I rocked at BTW thank you,and exhibiting many strong technical traits..

I decided to take a Strongs Cambell Personality and Career Inventory test, to find out what I was cut out for, and where I fit in..You know, the kind of test.."Would you rather pick a Rose or pick your Nose?" multiple guess ones, to see what other people like you do for a living..

Guess what? It turns out a College professor..Yeah the backwoods people were right, all that book learnin' and such..(Do I sound like the know-it-all type?)

But I was still proud of my heritage, and wanted to prove myself on their terms, so I applied myself in such a way. Plus I figured, I was still young, and strong, and I could do that in a practical way, and take up writing when I got to old to work..It is/was difficult, because to uneducated people, you can never prove yourself enough, the pride is something you can never overcome. Who wants to anyways? I was lucky to be so inspired to learn as I had, many did not have it so lucky, and fear drives pride...But I was driven by it too, and did not get that education that would get me to collegiate level.

Much of that came from my failed marriage(s), and the human frustration of those too. (Still trying to prove myself?)

Just sayin...(That always make me wonder what people are "Just sayin" does it you? Lol)..

You are smart, and that is the best gift, our minds,our imagination. It truly is a gift from God, to get us through the tough things in life, to imagine something better, to create a way out of where we are, and to bring us where we should, or want to, be.

God never gives us more than we can handle, and you are handling SoftLad like a responsible smart Lady,(Yeah I did it, I called you a Lady young gurl). Now imagine a future you can beleive in, the one you dream about, and live your dream. It's more real than the reality we live in, and truth is stranger than fiction

To sound like the egg-headed intellectualism type, just be..that is just good enough,and that is awesome.

Oh I know your smart cuz The Art of War threat is in yur sigline smile
Did I say too much? Lol..Iv'e got too much time on my hands anyways. Time to get going and living again..
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/07/12 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Did I say too much? Lol..Iv'e got too much time on my hands anyways. Time to get going and living again..


Hahaha, no! You know my thread is where the movers and shakers theorise!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
I read a lot, but being brought up in a rural backwoods New England town, it was kinda tough.

Se my Dad was old school farm stock, and could not read and write well, but bless his heart, he wanted me to get an education.


I can relate to this. I was brought up (and still live in) one of the most deprived areas of the country. I was the first in my family to go on to higher education. My mum says that when my dad saw me in my cap and gown at graduation, he had to go off and compose himself because he got all teary.

It was cool in one way, because I wasn't under the same achievement pressures as my fellow students. But they didn't have to work a couple of jobs to make it through either, but even that was fun. Everything is when you're 20!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Oh I know your smart cuz The Art of War threat is in yur sigline smile


Never touched a copy until I read the thread on here. So much for degrees when you have MB school!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/18/12 07:20 PM
SO sooo much going on.

I got the papers for my Decree Nisi today - which is half way to a divorce. Softlad has agreed to 'not defend' (fight against) the divorce as he agrees 'the marriage is over' 'though he does not agree with the reasons given'..

Um, so what.

Strange because I was so geared up for stuff like that to hurt, and it hasnļæ½t. Maybe it hasnļæ½t hit me yet but I can't wait to get those papers in the post and get myself divorced. That's just how I feel today. Maybe I will feel more grief in a few days though, you never can tell, can you?

I have my own little plans to focus on though. I am somehow going to find the time to send out LOTS of job applications. Sometime. I always thought single people had MORE time. I am not sure where all my time went.

I also have to figure out what to wear to a ball. Some friends and I are going to a charity ball in a medieval abbey next month, just for fun. I'm going to look SO good.

We've also agreed to go for rather a long walk. Up Ben Nevis, the highest mountain in the British Isles. It's about ten miles up the 'pony path' or 'tourist route' (I'm not climbing the rock face!) and should take about eight hours. Which means I have to get in shape between now and then (July) or I won't enjoy it at all and may have to humiliatingly give up half way. Long walks at the weekends in my new walking boots somewhere hilly, zumba sessions nightly and cycling should do it.

The trip up to Scotland should also be really fun and we're going to get a cottage to stay over at. There should also be some good pubs serving proper hillwalker breakfasts. I just need to get fit before I can earn that reward!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/18/12 07:27 PM
You're healing and staying busy and staying dark and that's why you don't feel it or just are stronger.

You may mourn it someday, but who knows. At least you know you can handle it.

You're a true MB success.
MB has saved you. Don't you think?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/18/12 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
MB has saved you. Don't you think?


I owe MB SO MUCH. I owe Dr H my health and happiness. I am SURE I would still be a mess, still in the dark about being cheated on and getting pulled back in by lies whenenever I'd had enough of his puzzling behaviour.

Sure of it. You only have to look at his mother (so like me) and his dad (wayward) to see it. She's no fool in anyhting else but she cant see the truth of her marriage. MB saved me wasting my life on a lie.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/18/12 11:54 PM
hug

Also, I am SOOOOO jealous. I wanna go to Scotland. I keep making jokes that I'm gonna move there. That way, my crazy family won't call me for silly drama things anymore. They couldn't afford it. HEHEHEHE

You sound great, and that is AWESOME. I am so glad for you. A PB ROCKSTAR for sure.
Originally Posted by Scotland
hug

Also, I am SOOOOO jealous. I wanna go to Scotland. I keep making jokes that I'm gonna move there. That way, my crazy family won't call me for silly drama things anymore. They couldn't afford it. HEHEHEHE

You sound great, and that is AWESOME. I am so glad for you. A PB ROCKSTAR for sure.
Amen
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/19/12 06:44 PM
I am positively in love with Scotland! Went there the first time last month and was completely and woefully in love after that! My DH is Scotish and my step children live there.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/19/12 06:51 PM
I am so looking forward to it. I have a lot of Scottish blood myself and I like the way how the light changes the further north you go.

Its a lower light, and this sounds silly but its more golden. Add in the purply hills and emerald woods and its a stunner of a place.

That's another thing for my new husband list, actually. Softlad was impervious to scenery. Must get someone who knows beauty when they see it. (Aside from my own which is obvious of course wink )
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/19/12 07:19 PM
Be careful of those Scotish men...they can be quite charming! wink
Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
Be careful of those Scotish men...they can be quite charming! wink

Lol. Like Sean Connery? "Moneypenny!!"
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/19/12 08:12 PM
a ball is a great way to take your mind off the official halfway point! i bought a ball gown last year to attend my school's ball (which i organised - doing again this year!). so much fun!

i'm sorry, indie, that you've gotten to this point. softlad in an idiot. but YOU are not; you are amazingly strong! weightlifter

those scottish men are nice - check under the kilt first to make sure they can meet your ENs!!! laugh it'll be hard to understand anything they're saying, but who cares?? rotflmao
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/19/12 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
Be careful of those Scotish men...they can be quite charming! wink

Lol. Like Sean Connery? "Moneypenny!!"

I could listen to him talk all day long. I'm gonna start reading a series by Steven Erikson, where the shortest novel is the first, at 450 pages, do you think he could read it to me instead? I LOVE the Scots accent. laugh

Oh Letty, that kilt comment had me doing a spit take. HEHEHEHEHE
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/19/12 08:52 PM
Ok, I was worried I might find the Highland accents too charming for my boundaries....

Originally Posted by Letty
check under the kilt first to make sure they can meet your ENs!!! laugh it'll be hard to understand anything they're saying, but who cares??

rotflmao

Now you've given me a whole other idea to worry about!

Here's me discussing the nice scenery and your mind goes straight under the kilts! Tsk tsk naughty
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/19/12 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Letty
those scottish men are nice - check under the kilt first to make sure they can meet your ENs!!! laugh it'll be hard to understand anything they're saying, but who cares?? rotflmao

DH pointed out that he has to be careful because you don't want to get a mosquito bit there! rotflmao
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/19/12 09:17 PM
i wanted to get a laugh out of you, not make you worry! you'll have a wonderful trip. don't forget to get yourself some of your clan tartan!
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/19/12 09:23 PM
You've certainly heard the song about the Scotsman and his kilt??

http://mp3bear.com/irish-rovers-under-the-scotsmans-kilt

My son goes to an all boys Catholic school and after he heard this song went to school and told his teacher and all his classmates about it....poor DH will never be able to show his face at DS's school again! LOL!!!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/19/12 10:28 PM
Brit, that is GREAT. laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/27/12 09:11 PM
Ok, confession time for Indie.

I'm having a good week. I passed my first set of maths exams in spite of the horrible flu I'd had. I bought walking boots and found it surprisingly easy to walk ten miles - Ben Nevis here I come! I've been doing Wii Zumba every night, cause dancing makes me happy. Tomorrow I am setting off on a 12 mile hike to a herb farm which sells this great homemade lavender shampoo. They'll also sort me out a good farmhouse brekkie.

Since getting the Decree Nisi half-way there divorce papers I've had unsettled sleeping patterns.

Nothing too bad and I was just glad that was the only reaction as I had expected depression or pain.

The day before yesterday, a mutual friend of mine and softlad changed his FB pic to a photo of him and softlad.

I clicked on it. The first time I have seen his face in months.

The first reaction was how unattractive I found him compared to when my lovebank was higher. I know that's common.

But then I was off and running. Looking for other FB pics of him. Googling him.

For what purpose I am sure I don't know.

The trigger of the friend's photo? A delayed reaction to the Decree Nisi? Combination of the two? Cockiness to see if I could handle it and feel nothing?

I'm not unbiased enough to say with any certainty.

Anyway I discovered he was still writing these sports columns he does for our local paper. Thank god I didn't discover any other details as this one is bad enough.

Though I buy the paper often, I never go near the sports pages and it never occurred to me in my wildest dreams that his life would go on untroubled to the point he would continue writing these.

Worse and worse, he's still GOOD. He's funny and articulate and intelligient in his writing still. I had gotten so much fog from him I had rewritten him entirely moronic. Any way it serves me right.

Since then things are quite the same. Generally happy but sleep a bit hit and miss. It will settle down if I can keep myself in order.

As for hole fixing, I need to unfriend anyone still in contact with softlad, I think. There are some obvious targets I missed.

I have fantastic plans for the weekend anyway. After my morning walk tomorrow Ill take my time getting ready for dinner and drinks in town with a good friend.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/27/12 09:20 PM
It is okay Indie ... Plan B can have moment of unexpected breaks. It happens ... just get back in the bunker and surround yourself with peace.

Any friend to a wayward cannot be a friend to the betrayed. Remember adultery is the worse form of abuse and cruelty ... if a friend cannot see that then their empathy radar is poorly working.

Plus ... waywards usually only associate with enablers because remember they are selfish, entitled, addicted, baboons. Addicts cannot function in society unless they have a posse of enablers surrounding them. If you don't enable, then you make them accountable. Addicts hate people who hold them accountable. They like to call them types "Judgmental"

This means the friend is likely not sharing the same set of values as you.

Keep your bar high for friends and husbands ... you will sow a much more rewarding life.

Remove all people from your life that will not stick up and protect you from the cruelty and abuse your WH is causing to you.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/27/12 09:41 PM
You mean you were not totally blind when you chose him to be your spouse?
Que horror!

His cleverness was part of the package you picked for husband.

Your rose colored glasses are coming off BUT you found stuff cool about him way before you married him and will way after this mess.

Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/27/12 09:43 PM
Yeah, it's like falling for a bad boy. You know he's bad for you but there are things about him you still like.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/27/12 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by reading
You mean you were not totally blind when you chose him to be your spouse?
Que horror!

His cleverness was part of the package you picked for husband.

Your rose colored glasses are coming off BUT you found stuff cool about him way before you married him and will way after this mess.


This made me laugh...!

But YES I expect him to degenerate into a loser and not have ANY redeemable features!

Actually, I do want to divorce with a more 'realistic' view of him. But that's a tricky one because my view of him is moot. He's wayward and who he is is not my business now.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/27/12 10:40 PM
twoxfour

Now that that is outta the way, hug

I know how tempting a hole like that can be and how it can spin completely outta control. Funny that. Glad you fessed up so others in PB can see what happens when there is any, even incidental contact.

I recently looked through my older profile pics, and funny enough, I also couldn't believe that I didn't find my WH attractive like I used to. Weird huh?

Don't let this slip get you any further. Get yourself back on track, and dark. You're doing GREAT.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/27/12 10:48 PM
Thanks Scot, I needed that smirk
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/27/12 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Thanks Scot, I needed that smirk

I aim to please. grin
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Ok, confession time for Indie.------------

But then I was off and running. Looking for other FB pics of him. Googling him.

For what purpose I am sure I don't know.

The trigger of the friend's photo? A delayed reaction to the Decree Nisi? Combination of the two? Cockiness to see if I could handle it and feel nothing?

I'm not unbiased enough to say with any certainty.

Those get my vote

Like you wanted to just stare the lion in the face.

Like how a snake hypnotizes his prey

Like you still are afraid and can't believe it

Yeah thats all normal too and time will take that away also..

So you did good on the exams?
Originally Posted by karmasrose
Yeah, it's like falling for a bad boy. You know he's bad for you but there are things about him you still like.

Could never figure that on out Karma..Why do they...Oh wait..it must be like why guys have a spot in their hearts for the trashy girls, who have no brains, morals, or values.. Umm.. they just want to be BAD a little bit?

Then we grow up..,and realize how we can't live with one foot in Heaven and one in Hell, and be cake eaters.

Its so simple, how did we miss it? Or were we not paying attention? I vote for not paying attention, but life is nothing if it isn't for learning.

"Show me someone who never made a mistake and I will show you someone who never learned anything"...

But some mistakes.. especially those that regard our human hearts? wow...
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/28/12 08:11 AM
It's all about choice. We grow up and realize that the bad boy is, well, bad. We learn better.
Yeah how about it. We could start a whole thread on bad choices and consequences and the temptations associated with them.

It is a human behavior class all of its own.

But not to TJ Indies thread anymore

Indie we all start out with a balance sheet of good and bad and what we believe we will overcome in our relationships. Although I loved it that my second wife was beautiful and a looker, I really thought there was more to her than that and that her character was stronger than it turned out to be.

In the end I fooled myself, and believed the best, even with all the signs staring me in the face, that I was just a means to an end, an enabler and a cuckold.

Still the death of 1000 cuts I embraced like it was my penance to pay, and believed sacrifice was good, and it would all work out in the end.

Truth is it did work out, just as should have been expected. Just wasn't paying attention.

The kung foo of MB is strong, you can count on it for a long time
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/28/12 10:01 AM
Funnily enough I have never ever seen the appeal of the bad boy.

My top need is O&H (always has been, its not just because of betrayal) and I can physically feel my heart pull in someones direction if I hear sommething I interpret as good, noble or honest. Sharing something deep and true is what does it for me.

The problem with this is you can't forever class that person as trustworthy. Everyone makes mistakes and no one should be trusted blindly.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/28/12 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
So you did good on the exams?

Yeah I need a C to pass and I got a C on one paper and a B on the other which gives me a good mid-level C.

Some people who got low Cs were told to book resits just in case they flunked the next paper, but my teacher said I didn't need to. She said if I could get a C while sick, I would be fine.


Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/30/12 08:56 AM
Glad to hear about the exam results indie, well done!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/01/12 12:42 PM
So I came home late from work late last night, and the first thing I noticed as I stepped into the hall was that the house smelled different. Outdoorsy, and full of the smell of the pine tree from the back yard. I noticed the back door swung wide open and I was baffled - I hadn't been out in the garden that day, I hadnļæ½t been forgetful.

Then I saw the hole in the lower part of the door, next to the lower deadbolt, which was swinging loose. I dropped my bags and turned on my heel out of the door and went to my brother's house. If intruders were still there, I didnļæ½t want to meet them. I also didnļæ½t want to see what the rest of the house looked like on my own.

It did occur to me as I drove away that maybe Softlad had broken in, as the law would allow him to do. I was in two minds about desiring this. On the one hand that could mean less financial pain for me than it being a professional thief, but it would be a higher emotional pain.

My brother returned with me, and we discovered my laptop was gone and so was my Wii console and three Wii games. The television and stereo (both older models) were not touched. I suppose it could have been worse. We were both baffled by how they managed to get in the back door. The bottom deadbolt was caved in, next to a hole they had sawed or chiselled. Then, the key in the lock must have been pushed in from outside, and caught through the hole and then opened from the other side. But we have no idea how they opened the topmost deadbolt. It's completely untouched and too far away from the hole in the bottom of the door.

By the time the police came I was in high spirits and laughing. I didnļæ½t sleep well though. Then driving into work I got inexplicably angry at Softlad. Remember him? My sworn protector? Where is he in my hour of need?, I thought. Half way across the world, hiding from his well earned shame, and choosing no contact with me so he can Skype or email with his mistress or whatever nonsensical form their addiction takes while he is in hiding.

Don't get me wrong, I donļæ½t wish he was here. He would be as much use as a chocolate teapot. But he nevertheless owes me his protection. He is still mine, my only choice while laws still tie us together. He pretended to be a buyer, and stole my time, stole my chances of marrying someone more reliable. Someone who could have helped last night.

I am really tired of making everything about him though. I donļæ½t want him, even as a nemesis.
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/01/12 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Don't get me wrong, I donļæ½t wish he was here. He would be as much use as a chocolate teapot.

I have nothing constructive to offer, but this gave me the giggles for some reason.

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/01/12 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Don't get me wrong, I donļæ½t wish he was here. He would be as much use as a chocolate teapot.

I am really tired of making everything about him though. I donļæ½t want him, even as a nemesis.

kiss
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/01/12 03:40 PM
Sorry about the break in. In true Indie fashion you handled it marvelous.
Posted By: Hoping1183 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/01/12 05:41 PM
Crazy... a similar robbery happened at my house (which is actually my parent's house) while we were sleeping the night before last. Laptop was taken and we were all fast asleep upstairs but the thief just walked in the back door as we did not lock it.
This is just too weird. We were both robbed on the same day, the day after we became connected by you becoming my IM. And halfway across the world from each other.
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/01/12 07:47 PM
wow, indie, how scary! i'm sorry to hear of your loss. and i know what you mean about softlad. ugh!

what are you doing to protect yourself in this situation (robbery)? (is it even possible?)

thank goodness just thieves (stealing immediately sell-able items). but how horrible to have had that WH jolt.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/01/12 09:10 PM
It is weird Hoping isn't it? I was telling my mother of the coincidence before.

Thanks Letty, there isn't much I can do to 'protect myself'. I think the smartest thing I did was not enter the house alone once I realised. Maybe Ill get MelodyLane to teach me how to shoot!!!

The police are coming again tomorrow to get fingerprints and interview me. Then they'll realise the burglars were wearing gloves and it'll get filed in a nice big cabinet of unsolved burglaries.

Oh well. Its all replacable stuff. Thank god my writing is not up to much at the moment - there would have been half a novel on that laptop otherwise!
Posted By: estrela Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/02/12 01:35 AM
Be safe, Indie!
And please back up your work. I once lost pages of a short story I was trying to write, never to start again.
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/02/12 07:08 AM
ditto w/estrela - i back up all my stuff now via google docs, plus dropbox and an external hdd! no, not paranoid at all!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/05/12 01:03 PM
To show their support following the break-in, my work friends had a whipround for me. How awesome is that? Not just coins either, quite a few ļæ½10 notes!

When I had dinner at my friend's house, she told me what they had done at the office, and gave me the collection - ļæ½100! That's half the price of the Wii, or it would replace the three games that were stolen.

However it's the gesture of putting their hands in their pockets to show how sorry they felt. People are not what they say, they are what they do. And I am so touched.

My friend had also bought me some little bathtime treats, because she was shopping when she heard about the break in and had wanted to buy me something to cheer me up.

So that is lovely isn't it? I just seem to have much better friends these days and I can spot the fakers from much further away.

So that's the good news. The bad is not quite so bad either.

Really strange, but I had another dream about Softlad.

Ive been thinking about him a bit on and off the past few days - just a dip in the roller coaster I expect.

But I was surprised to have the dream. I only had those right after Dday and soon after going into Plan B.

I was working in a department store and he came in to try and talk to me. I had security throw him out, but I was fearful that when I left to go get some lunch, he'd be there.

He was. Wearing the dopey glazed look I imagine cake eaters wear when trying to break Plan B. I ran away from him down a side street. It was like trying to escape a zombie.

But I was way too quick for him.

Its just an oddity. The rollercoaster has slowed down a lot at least.
Posted By: Hoping1183 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/05/12 02:52 PM
You have some wonderful friends. That's one of the perks I'm finding out about Plan B -- all of the support and care people have shown me. I was afraid to expose because I was scared of their responses but I've realized that when I was honest was when I saw the truly good people for who they are.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/05/12 07:41 PM
Wow, you English people speak weird. wink

AWESOME co-workers, can I ask though, what are bathtime treats? Or do I not wanna know? HEHEHEHEHE

Not surprising that you had a dream about Softlad. Good to hear that your Plan B is solid, even in dreamland. Running away down a side street, I had a little giggle thinking of that. And then the zombie comment, oh Indie, you had me doing a spit take.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/05/12 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Wow, you English people speak weird. wink


Do you mean whip-round? I had a feeling that might be a British only saying as I dont think Ive ever heard a foriegner use the term....

It beats 'collection' hands down though.
You only use the expression when you want to 'whip up' enthusiasm for a cause, so I like it very much.

Originally Posted by Scotland
AWESOME co-workers, can I ask though, what are bathtime treats? Or do I not wanna know? HEHEHEHEHE

Scotty!!! If you must know it was rose, sandalwood and jasmine bath fizzes. Very nice for Plan Bing on a quiet night in....

Originally Posted by Scotland
And then the zombie comment, oh Indie, you had me doing a spit take.



I was accused of hating men the other day, because I've gotten very critical of my friend's dates. (Ive not been wrong once though, I've gotten to be such a good judge of character). Their dates arent even bad, just unsuitable needs-wise. This was accepted once Id explained it.

I dont hate men!! I dont even hate zombie-waywards. I sincerely hope every one of the doped up little sods have their 'Road to Damascus' moment and find repentance and happier lives. If I hated them, I would want them to stay wayward forever.

But while they are wayward, I will run from them.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/05/12 08:14 PM
Yeppers, it was the "whip-round". It does sound much more interesting than "collection".

Those bathtime treats sound fun. smile

Keep helping your friends along. That's what good friends do afterall.
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/05/12 08:24 PM
IG - to aid you in your zombie getaway plan read this
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/06/12 03:36 AM
lol, i am the zombie queen! currently wearing my original '79 dawn of the dead t-shirt. i also dream about zombies (loss of control much?). i'd like to blame it on my teaching-film choices (TWD this year), but i've had them since i was quite young (well, those, and dying in a plane crash - also supposedly a control issue).

yes, i agree that waywards are total zombies! too bad we can't chop off their heads :-P

ps: are those fizzes from lush? i love them. discovered them in scotland, and so glad they came to nz!

pps: i also had a crappy wayward dream this weekend :O( something in the water? air?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/06/12 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by Letty
ps: are those fizzes from lush? i love them. discovered them in scotland, and so glad they came to nz!

Yeah! You gotta love Lush.

Originally Posted by Logans_Run
IG - to aid you in your zombie getaway plan read this


Hahahaha thats amazing!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/09/12 09:36 AM
Trying to sort out the insurance to get my door fixed, is proving to be a nightmare... because I don't know who I am insured with. Arranging our insurance was WHs job and he was never very keen on transparency.

I will NEVER be in a non transparent marriage EVER again.

I assumed our Bricks and Mortar insurance (which would pay for the door) was with the same people we pay our mortgage to.

And apparently so it was, until 2008, when Softlad cancelled the policy.

I went cold when I heard this from our mortgage people. Had he just cancelled it for more spending money? If you dont have bricks and mortar insurance, your mortgage isnt valid. That doesnt sound like the sort of risk he would take. Or is it?

Ive been looking back at the intermediary emails at the start of Plan B. He told my IM that both insurance and mortgage come out the 1st of the month and that we should split the cost (Both contents and B&M) so if he is telling the truth that's fantastic. Hopefully he just moved the policy to another insurer because for years we didnt have contents insurance (we couldnt afford anything expensive anyway)

But when we got the laptop and some games gonsoles and he got some expensive golf clubs, he started to talk about getting contents insured. This was around 2008 so maybe he just found a deal and went with it, and so moved our B&M insurance.

I hope so. Because I'm not allowed to jump on a plane and murder him in Plan B. Or most country's laws.

But if he's been swindling me the cost of the invented monthly insurance bill all this time, I will have to hit something.

Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/09/12 09:48 AM
Get a punching bag or play a violent videogame. Channel that anger into something healthy! Goodness knows after this you need an outlet...

You never know what waywards will do. Personally, I've seen enough here on MB to be prepared to hear just about anything from a wayturd.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/09/12 10:47 AM
What a disappointing blow. Hopefully this will be sorted without much grief. Maybe a punching bag should be part of the BS toolkit.
Posted By: smidgen Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/09/12 11:04 AM
If it's anything like the US, you can find out your insurance information from your mortgage lender. The 'loss payee' clause means the insurance pays the lender first, so lenders are motivated to make sure there is insurance in force at all times.
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/09/12 12:52 PM
It's not much like the US.

Good luck, I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. It is a week in hell for many of us.
You sure about the laws on allowing you to...?

Sorry this is happening and yeah, the transparency thing..very important

But hey, his own eyes were so cloudy he couldn't even see himself right?

Can't blame a dog for being a dog. They can't think..Oh yeah thats right, softlad can think..he chooses not to.

I am sure the banks made sure the house was protected, or the mortgage's company did. Follow that lead
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/09/12 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
I am sure the banks made sure the house was protected, or the mortgage's company did. Follow that lead


Ill check again. They weren't very helpful before. Just said it was cancelled and to check with him regarding the new policy he will have had taken out. But I was a bit sideswiped and didn't push it.

I hope Softlad is on the level and comes back to my IM with the details of the policy.

It isn't nice to have your hard earned things swooped away and sold for pennies on street corners.

I'm starting to save up for a holiday to India in autumn with a friend and I'm already pining for Wii Zumba!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 12:24 AM
One of the major changes that I had in Plan B was having to figure out how to do things WITHOUT contacting my IM to contact WH. I needed to figure out ways around things. I didn't want to open any doors that he would be able to piss me off about. Seems that MANY waywards will use the BSs asking for certain things as a show of weakness, and will attempt to manipulate it to their satisfaction.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
One of the major changes that I had in Plan B was having to figure out how to do things WITHOUT contacting my IM to contact WH. I needed to figure out ways around things. I didn't want to open any doors that he would be able to piss me off about. Seems that MANY waywards will use the BSs asking for certain things as a show of weakness, and will attempt to manipulate it to their satisfaction.

You raised a valid point, one I hadn't considered. Seems it doesn't matter what we say or do they manipulate it for their own purpose. Sad we have to continually look for ways to prevent supplying them with any further ammo to use against us. What is it with the wayward mind that they need a fix or scapegoat to keep their fantasy alive.
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 04:18 AM
indie, i find it hard to believe that the company that services your mortgage would allow it to go uninsured since 2008. it must have insurance somewhere. sorry you had to go through IM to do it though. something to put on your to-do list!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 10:30 AM
So I rechecked with the mortgage company.

They can only tell me what's on my account and there isn't any mention of the new insurer on my account.

She said it wasn't essential they have that information listed there was nothing they could do to tell me any more.

She also told me that if he'd taken out the new insurance in his name only, with the same company (I asked) they wouldn't be able to talk to me about it due to data protection (a very annoying uk law which treats husbands and wives like separate entities)

So even if I had found the insurance paperwork (I was going through his paperwork stuff yesterday) I possibly wouldn't have been able to claim as its his policy, not mine.

Even if my solicitor requested his financial records (a costly exercise) the insurer wouldn't talk to me when its in his name.

If it even exists. Yet I've been transferring the money for that bill into his account every month.

Apparently I am dependent on his being cooperative here. But I'm not asking for any favours. Its his property too and its been damaged. I'm not asking for anything I haven't paid for every month. I am not asking him to be any more cooperative than I was in agreeing to pay.

If he says no, then I will stop paying that bill and take out my own policy. His family are also aware of the break in and will be horrified if he witholds the insurance policy.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 01:47 PM
Got an email from my IM. He wont give her the insurance info but he has passed it to my sister and BiL.

My BiL hasnt been very supportive. I know he encourages WH to try and contact me, he thinks this will help. He thinks MB and not talking is stupid.

Got a text from my sister saying she had the insurance companies name, up to me if I wanted it as he wouldnt use IM.

I texted her back saying I had read WHs name in her text and so I had deleted it unread.

I've told my IM that if he doesnt want to give her specific account info, he can pass that on through my sister, and I will OK it with her first and accept the message as I am expecting it.

Its similar to the deal Starfish has. Any sensitive info is not given to the IM but passed to her mother in writing.

I'm fine with that, if I OK it first, but I'm not having random messages come at me through third parties he chooses without the IM directing him as to my wishes.

But it does sound as though there IS insurance cover, which is something.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 03:59 PM
He called me at work!!!!

I'm a reporter so anyone can call the newsroom. Just bad luck that I picked up. Anyone else would have asked who it was.

A male voice said 'Indie?' and when I said 'yes' he said 'the insurance company is xxxx'

I completely did not recognise his voice. So much so that I said: "Who is this?" When he said "Never mind who..." I hung up.

Wow. At one time I could have picked out his voice in a crowd full of people. He and I also have very strong regional accents, very different to the readers of the newspaper I work for, which is in another county. 'Scousers' sound very different to the rest of northern England.

Yet I didnt pick up on his accent, he just sounded like Standard English.

Sometimes my accent disappears on the phone and I sound more standard but his NEVER does. Like most men his accent is stronger and less displaceable. I didnt even know he COULD smooth out his accent. It could be working abroad that has done that.

Just odd.

I was shaking afterwards but now I'm OK. What do I do with the company name he gave me though? Until I ring the insurance company, my back door can't be fixed and isn't totally secure.

They're bound to want a policy number though.



Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 04:29 PM
Have IM ask for the policy number so that you can contact the insurer for a claim.

Don't imagine drama or get into it.

Maybe get an alarm system for the house?

Posted By: Hoping1183 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 04:46 PM
Wow, can't believe he called you, after being in a dark Plan B for so long.

If it were me I would have been in shock (briefly).
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by reading
Maybe get an alarm system for the house?


The cops said that could be a good idea if I work late shifts. maybe if I get the money for insurance I could afford a good one.

Im not sure though. If I hear an alarm I simply think something has set it off, I dont think my neighbour is being burgled.

I was leaning more toward CCTV. My front and back door are to the side of my house around a corner and secluded. So thieves could work away at the doors without being seen from the street. Especially the back door which is also behind a solid side gate. the cops suggested fake cameras but I was thinking real ones.

The cops also suggested I get timed lamps near windows. That would be a help on days when I leave for work at 2pm and dont get home till 10pm,

One thing I am definitely doing is getting trellis. I dont know what the non-British word for that is! Wooden crisscrossed support for climbing plants on a frame. The police say if I put trellis on top of the seven-foot walls where they jumped over into the back yard, they wouldnt have been able to get a hand hold. It collapses and causes injury and so burglars avoid it.

Its cheap and pretty so im doing it.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Hoping1183
Wow, can't believe he called you, after being in a dark Plan B for so long.

If it were me I would have been in shock (briefly).


I should have anticipated it. He has a huge KISA (or wanting to be seen as a fake one) complex so it wouldnt have sat well with him to not contact me. Its also a lame excuse not to use IM because of 'sensitive info' Really what is she going to do with my home insurance details?

Though all he has to do to speak with me directly is go NC with blackwidow. Its not hard. She's a horrible, horrible person.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 04:56 PM
Here in The Colonies, we call trellis trellis.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 05:22 PM
Maybe they had trellis on the Mayflower and thats why its the same smile
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 05:37 PM
You have a backyard?

Maybe you want a nice little doggy (a big one....lol).

(just kidding cause a dog is a big responsibility and makes travel more complicated in life).
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 05:56 PM
I would LOVE a dog. A husky puppy with piercing blue eyes. Id call him Monday.

One day. It'd be totally cruel to have a dog now. Im only at home about 15 hours a week not counting sleep.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 07:35 PM
Spoke to the insurance company. I managed to get the policy number by giving them surnames, addresses and DOBs.

I have to call them back tomorrow because I left the crime number from the police at home. But I should have gotten the ball rolling.

I'm not sure what to do now. I think I should just let it all blow over.

I was tempted to have my IM send him a set of rules, that in future he could send sensitive account info to my sis, but only if I OKd it beforehand and I told her I was expecting it and briefed her on what she could tell me. Otherwise I wont accept any messages from her.

But I cant really think what else I would need from now on. Unless he changes the insurance policy again.

Maybe I should let everything drop. I think I did pretty well in sending him the message he can't break my plan.

I didnt accept my sister's text. (I need to ahve a word with her too. In future she must automatically reply that the IM needs to OK it and I need to tell her its alright before she can pass anything along)

I hung up on him when he called.

I think I've done all I can.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/10/12 08:35 PM
Let it drop.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/11/12 12:23 AM
I agree, you have handled it well. Keep yourself occupied, you know what can happen when you have even the smallest break in Plan B.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/11/12 01:02 AM
Im0 decorating and having some ladies over for the weekend so I am too busy for his malarkey!!!

The girlies will help me paint, then I'm buying dinner as thankyou and then we hit the dancefloor.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/11/12 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
The girlies will help me paint, then I'm buying dinner as thankyou and then we hit the dancefloor.
Dancing! Woohoo fun! laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/14/12 10:12 PM
Painted my spare room and danced my shoes off this weekend.

Spare room, which I use for my dressing table and other girlie nonsense, is now a lovely restful aqua colour. Makes me think of the beach. I have calico curtains too.

Its exciting because you can get beachy accessories really cheaply and go to town on the theme at little expense. I'm going to do myself up a little haven. Garlands of starfish and shells, oystershells glued to make the frame on a mirror, wicker chests. I have two big white canvases which have remained blank due to lack of inspiration. Think I'm going to paint a red and white lighthouse with lots of sea spray on one. The other Ill paint bundled up sticks of seaside rock candy, showing the lettering through the middle. But instead of the name of the seaside resort like 'blackpool rock' ill have different lettering like 'rock the boat' 'by the seaside' and 'rock star'

Excited!!!!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/14/12 11:05 PM
*like*
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/14/12 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Painted my spare room and danced my shoes off this weekend.

Spare room, which I use for my dressing table and other girlie nonsense, is now a lovely restful aqua colour. Makes me think of the beach. I have calico curtains too.

Its exciting because you can get beachy accessories really cheaply and go to town on the theme at little expense. I'm going to do myself up a little haven. Garlands of starfish and shells, oystershells glued to make the frame on a mirror, wicker chests. I have two big white canvases which have remained blank due to lack of inspiration. Think I'm going to paint a red and white lighthouse with lots of sea spray on one. The other Ill paint bundled up sticks of seaside rock candy, showing the lettering through the middle. But instead of the name of the seaside resort like 'blackpool rock' ill have different lettering like 'rock the boat' 'by the seaside' and 'rock star'

Excited!!!!

Awesome. What a great idea. Your own retreat. I like the idea of painting the canvases.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/15/12 08:34 PM
What a peaceful, happy place:) Good for you! And how wonderful if you can feel inspired to paint. I used to write - need to get in the groove again.

It makes me happy to picture your happy place, so I hope you're enjoying the new room.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/19/12 06:17 AM
How are you Indiegirl, your obviously enjoying that peaceful retreat.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/24/12 08:21 PM
Well, I WAS hf, and getting on with lots of Plan B plans, but now I feel all stressed again.

I'm having a bit of a work issue. It's not very MB related, but everyone here is so wise and I need to VENT.

My boss sent me a very snotty email today about my leaving on time yesterday (the nerve!) without telling her I was going to do that. I sent an email back asking if she wanted to discuss it and I heard nothing back. She's a proper little coward with stuff like that. I'm happy to stay late, if I am free to do it, and if I get the time back, but that's not what she's saying. She is not coming over to ask for extra help, she's requesting that I wait to be dismissed like a schoolgirl from the headmistresses office EVERY DAY. That will quickly drive me crazy.

It's clearly her way of making sure that no one leaves on time, because people will be too intimidated to, if they have to flag it up to her that's what they are doing.

Not me though.

I know she's getting pressure from her boss and that she lets him bully her.

I felt like replying 'The shift rota is on your desk. If you want to know what time I will be leaving, check the rota.'

But I want to be professional and I'm too sarcastic right now.

I'm thinking of giving her until 6pm tomorrow to come back to me, (that's what time my shift ends tomorrow). If she hasn't by then, I'll go over and tell her that I am leaving. If she asks me to stay, I'll say: "Sorry no, I have plans. (which I do) But may I ask why you need me to tell me whn I am leaving? I dont understand the reason and I would like to help, if I can understand why you need me to remind you of the time."

What do you think?


Posted By: estrela Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/25/12 12:42 AM
Indie,

I think less confrontation is always best with mean bosses (and with bosses in general). Maybe I am old school on that. I would leave on time, stop by to say bye, and if she needs something done, you can tell her you will do it first thing in the morning.

You could do it every day, then every other day, then wean her out of it. If she says anything, try to understand what's behind the request.

Just some ideas...
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/25/12 01:09 AM
Maybe I'm a hothead. HEHEHE Because I like Indie's, but I see the validity in Estrela's POV.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/25/12 04:00 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Maybe I'm a hothead. HEHEHE Because I like Indie's, but I see the validity in Estrela's POV.
I'm definitely a hothead so I'm probably not a good source because I would've already said what Indies said but to her face.

I'm very professional so I wouldn't have dropped any F bombs but I would've definitely confronted her. I would've scheduled a one on one to discuss it..

Maybe that's why even the guys are scared of me at work. Hmm maybe I need some of estrela to rub off on me? laugh
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/25/12 07:03 AM
i'm w/BH on this one. diplomacy is not my strong suit, which is why i'm an assistant head and not a head of dept. i do not have the patience for BS and no desire for a position that would necessitate having to put up w/it. it would really peeve me off, a boss waiting until the last minute to say they need something done - that sounds like a control issue to me, versus something that really needs doing. however you decide to handle it, i hope it works!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/27/12 10:38 PM
So I'm back on board with the pedicures, peeps.

My stunted toenail is still a little short and misshapen, but I painted them all aqua (to match the beach room) and it looks good!

The weather is glorious at the moment, and this being Britain will prob only last another day or so before the clouds roll back in.

So I've been making the most of it. On Friday I dressed for Summer at work (while its here) and went out with the gang afterwards. Stayed in a friends house and we got up nice and early for a ramble and then had lunch by the river at this really cool pub.

I needed the treat because I had met with my boss on Friday about her request. She made it clear that I had to check in with her before I go. I made it clear that my own time is my own. So that's our impasse spelled out. But we were very civil. Through gritted teeth.

I think God is trying to make it difficult for me to be lazy about moving on. So much has gone wrong with my job. They took away our parking privileges, so parking is an added expense and a fair walk now. Then they cut our overtime pay - but made it so we were in the office for longer. Then the bosses just chipped away at the joy of the job, taking away the real stories and just churning out junk for us to rewrite.

I sometimes think I am being sent a very strong message to GET OUT but does God work that way? Theology is not my strong suit. I'm going to job hunt like crazy, during this week off anyway..

Today was quite simply perfect. My family and my little people having a barbecue at my parents house. Most English barbecues involve umbrellas at some point, or at least wooly wraps towards evening but it was like being in Greece or Italy. We laughed like we did when we were little kids.

It was my nephews second birthday. He had the time of his life. He took my simple present of a puzzle and some crayolas and he went nuts over it.

He also eats everything he can get his hands on. Its a pleasure to watch him savour stuff. The child even likes black pudding (blood mixed with fat and milk) and was eating it cold! I didn't like it till I was at least ten.

My BiL was in charge at the coals and is an amazing cook: I ate way too much ribs, chicken and burgers and tuna steak. And birthday cake. Then I was offered strawberries and cream (with a vanilla pod scraped out into the cream) and I couldn't resist.

But Ill work it off in the garden tomorrow so it's all good.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/27/12 10:51 PM
Thanks for sharing that, Indie! You paint such beautiful pictures with your words. I still love the image of your beach room, love the aqua toes! I didn't realize you were in Britain. My DS16 would so love to hear about that! She wants to visit there so badly, always has. Someday . . . sigh

I, for one, believe that God does work that way. Sometimes we need a little more prodding than others. Something else must be calling your name, and I hope it's a wonderful change for you! Good luck with job hunting. With everything else you've accomplished, you can certainly do this too. Maybe just a whole beautiful new life is waiting around the corner for you, and God knows you're finally ready smile
Posted By: estrela Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 12:22 AM
Agree with rainy, but ... black pudding??? And kids eat it? Sounds like a Monster family recipe!
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 12:30 AM
Originally Posted by estrela
Agree with rainy, but ... black pudding??? And kids eat it? Sounds like a Monster family recipe!


Oh, yes - I saw that. No offense, but BLECH! Indie puke

Everything else sounds picturesque flirt
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 05:58 AM
black pudding???

quick story: once my best gf and i went to ireland for 9 days. we flew into shannon and rented a car and just drove. on the way to blarney, we took a wrong turn and ended up in a tiny town in the middle of the great beyond. (seriously, have you been to ireland? once hit a t-junction where the sign said <--dingle --> no kidding!) i finally saw a man walking down the road. i told my friend, "roll down your window and ask him which way to blarney." she said, "no! he may be an axe murderer!" (american girls, sigh.) so i made her do it, and he invited us into his home just three houses up. my gf, of course, was totally panicked: "they'll never find our bodies!" but we went in. his wife served us up tea and basically invited the neighbourhood to meet us. in the midst of all this, she brought out a plate of...you guessed it! black pudding! well, when in rome and all that. YUCK! thank goodness i could take a big bite, then wash it down with tea.

needless to say, he wasn't an axe murderer, and we got to blarney, though my tum was a little too weak to kiss the blarney stone after eating, basically, blood. i hope i am never so hungry that black pudding will be a menu option!

the *rest* of your weekend sounds delightful! but watching your little vampire suck down blood sausage would have made me puke !

glad to hear the toenail is bright blue as well grin and congrats on a true summer weekend! my mum lives at the beach in WA state. it is high summer. about 60F and raining!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 08:18 AM
It is delicious! You don't know what you're missing. All crumbly, creamy, soft and tart. Not that I got a bite with the birthday boy running around.

All the British chefs are making special dishes for the Queen's Jubilee next weekend and one recipe I saw was for a warm salad - cubed black pudding, poached eggs and bacon - I'm totally doing that.

Children know what they like. At one point he mistook some cut up burgers for black pudding and was really disappointed in the taste of burgers! Child's an addict.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 09:47 AM
Oooh, I miss haggis! Not a fan of black pudding though Indie. BTW, if you ever come down under, please pack a jar of Duchy's lemon curd for me. And Tip Tree (?) strawberry jam. Okay, I'll stop the foodie TJ. Until next time, lol.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by Caracal
Oooh, I miss haggis! Not a fan of black pudding though Indie. BTW, if you ever come down under, please pack a jar of Duchy's lemon curd for me. And Tip Tree (?) strawberry jam. Okay, I'll stop the foodie TJ. Until next time, lol.

I like haggis too. Duchys lemon curd IS amazing as well. However if I was to bring you strawberry jam, it would, pompously, be my own. I make it with some hawthorne berries and scented gerenium leaves that resemble wine in taste. Trust me its brilliant. On a scone with clotted cream!

I've got little white strawberry flowers all over my borders so I should get a bumper crop next month.

The garden needs LOTS of work and that's the afternoon planned. This morning Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders arrived - woo hoo! So I read it all on a garden blanket with fancy coffee and an omlette.

God, Dr H is a genius. Some insights I now have I didn't have before. I knew Softlad was a renter as soon as I found MB. But I now know him to be a combination of an Electric Fence Personality (hates authority, inexplicable rages over nothing) a People Pleaser and a Perfectionist.

I used to manage his stubborn angriness so well, other people and their issues were a piece of cake. There's no situation I can't smooth over.

He's certainly a PP too. On honeymoon, he offered to help a complete stranger move house. The guy thought he was a crackpot and I jokingly called him an overeager boyscout. Helping out a widow was most certainly people pleasing to our many couple friends who were busy with children and wanted someone else to do it.

PPs often chose partners who barely like or even dislike them. Then they win them around. I remember early after making each others' acquaintance, he offended me and I reacted strongly. He then made extremely great efforts to win my friendship.

And perfectionism! He could never make a decision. Even between cereal brands. Shopping was a nightmare.

I suppose he was always afraid of unexpectedly running into that electric fence of his, so he worked hard to avoid making mistakes. He also made sure he got people to love him so they would walk with him wherever he wanted to go. It worked well.

Its such a shame because he's an intelligent and caring man beneath all that junk.

I would have worked through all these things at the time, but now I feel grateful to be moving on.

No wonder I like Plan B! Its so much more easy going.

Now I have to go yell at my insurance company who have sent me out a cheque - in Softlads name. Give me strength.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 01:03 PM
Grrrr. The insurance company say that because he is the main policy holder it either has to be in his name or he has to approve it being sent out in my name.

I said: "Well he's away, working in Singapore. I'm the only one here who can practically arrange repairs." But they insisted. So I said "Well, you'll have to call him then. I would get him to call you, but that seems a little unreasonable getting him to make an international call because of your rules. So she took his number. Which I am pretty sure is unchanged. How depressing I can still reel it off by heart.

I thought tactically that was the best route. If I request it through the IM he then has time and opportunity to mess us around.

If however the insurance co call him up out of the blue with no warning, he has to make a snap decision.

I know he wants to look like a good guy, and its in his interest to get repairs to his own property carried out.

It will also come across more as a company asking him for information, rather than my asking him for something.

I hope so, anyway.
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 07:44 PM
wow, how timely that the cheque arrived with your reading!

i so want to give a copy of BRF to my DD, but am afraid she will think i am being judgemental and won't read it. may just read it myself though.

i hope SL is manipulated by his own inner behaviour to make that decision and you can make your repairs promptly. you must be on tenterhooks.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 09:26 PM
Softlads mum called me, she said he had phoned her up, was being very confusing but that he had told her it was very urgent she tell me he had arranged for an insurance cheque to be sent to me.

I said yes I was expecting him to do that its fine, just ignore him next time.

My life, he's tiresome. Can't do the simplest most basic bit of his duty of care to me, without presenting it to me for my approval. Look! Look! I did the bare minimum!


Anyway me and his mum had a good chat and she's coming round to see my garden tomorrow. The place is still a disgrace for weeds, but. There's lots of good stuff too.

One big red oriental poppy opened up overnight. Its bigger than a babys head and the red petals are all crinkled, like a silk dress just taken out of the suitcase. Lovely.

Originally Posted by Letty
i so want to give a copy of BRF to my DD, but am afraid she will think i am being judgemental and won't read it. may just read it myself though.


I want my was-cheated-on-while-engaged-friend to read it. She's already taken Dr H's advice to date at least 30 people. I'm going to give her the highlights and then just say she can borrow it if she wants. Books are like friends. They can't be forced on people!
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 09:35 PM
I think you handled it great! Bravo! clap
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 10:06 PM
Thank you! I take that as a great compliment from such an Art of War general as yourself...!
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 10:25 PM
Wow! A few days ago I was a total wimp with everyone having to kick me in the tush, including you, indiegirl. You think I'm an Art of War general now?

I don't know what to say . . . crazy

Thanks!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 10:51 PM
I told you the brave feelings would show up after exposure.

Before exposure, WH told me he was thinking of leaving me, and wanted to be friends afterwards. I FREAKED and he criticised me for being 'not a good friend to him any more'. So I bought us friendship bracelets (oh the shame!)

But you can't be really strong until you've been really weak. Bravery isn't never being afraid, its doing something even though you're shaking with fear. Once you know you can do that, fear becomes a temporary imposter.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/28/12 10:54 PM
Beautifully spoken!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/03/12 03:52 PM
Had such a great time staying at my friend's near Chester this weekend. We went to a folk festival which was so cool, all the musicians just sitting in corners of pubs jamming away. Then shopping and lunch, and out in Chester on a Saturday night.

I hadn't realised what a pretty place it is. Its so near to me and I have never been before. The little Tudor buildings, with shops stacked, one on top of the other with wrought iron balconys. The Roman wall that surrounds it, still there in places.I thought Liverpool was old, but Chester is older still. It was a good drive too. Through a forest and green fields that looked like a patchwork quilt. I've been offered to become a regular weekend visitor and I just might!

We chatted to lots of people this weekend and its depressing how many tattered relationships you can spot by doing this. Married men, out en masse, getting drunk with their friends as if single. Displaying horrible boundaries. Then there were the couples who were clearly married and had been so a long time. Who also make an effort to get dressed up and go out and have fun with each other.

I really like this stage I'm in. Not being a part of the singles scene, but observing it. Looking, learning, watching, waiting. Deciding what I want. I think even if it was possible to get an instant divorce, you should spend at least a year figuring out what's what.
Posted By: Hoping1183 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/04/12 12:25 AM
Chester sounds beautiful. I love seeing the architecture from long ago. I will have to go there someday. I have never been to Europe, maybe during my Plan B would be a good time to do so.

I hope to be in the stage you are in someday. You are soul searching and patiently gathering information about what you want in life and in a potential partner. You are finding the path to a life lived fully and with joy.

I wish we all had a required course in MB during high school or college.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/04/12 01:28 AM
Good insights, Indie. Did you start job hunting?
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/04/12 01:47 AM
"Bravery isn't never being afraid, its doing something even though you're shaking with fear. Once you know you can do that, fear becomes a temporary imposter."

Your words of wisdom are very true, something we all learn from MB ... this would be a good quote on the exposure thread, may help newbies find strength.

Chester is beautiful I visited before I married. What a great weekend escape. Lunch by the river sounds wonderful.

Good luck with the job hunting if you decide on a change.
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/04/12 07:15 AM
happy QB indie! hope you're having fun (after stinky work, right?).
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/04/12 08:22 PM
Yeah, back to work was NOT fun. I've found some good things to apply for though, so that's OK.

I was told a fairly disturbing story about a friend of mine recently. I am a bit thrown as I think highly of her, and she is a divorced former BW and we had bonded q well over our relevant stories and our values appeared to be the same.

But she was telling me a story after she went out dancing recently and it bothers me a lot. She's looking to meet someone, which is fine, but she got talking to a group where a man told her he had a girlfriend and baby at home.

She spent most of the night talking with him, and at one point said to him 'you're not happy are you?' To which he agreed he was not. She then ended up slow dancing with him!

I truly believed she was going to round off the story by saying she couldn't belive how dumb she'd been and next time less wine and more sense.

But instead she said she had found him very desirable and was considering looking him up on FB!

She also bragged that she had considered herself to have good boundaries because she hadn't kissed him! And told him she wouldn't!

I'm afraid I was q harsh. I told her that if she was looking for a cheater there were websites that specialised in that.

I also said she would never have shown those behaviours if the girlfriend had been there. That if she had, she would have told my friend to mind her own business about how happy they were.

I know this guy isn't married, but I don't see the point in signing up for misery, and being needlessly cruel to a woman who already has a terrible hand dealt her.

Another friend agreed the slow dancing was inappropriate, but disagreed when I said the poor boundaries had started earlier, with the type of conversation.

Well when I had finished this friend was as red as a poppy, said I was right and she now felt terrible. She said she hadn't thought to think about it from the the girlfriends perspective. But it looks bad from every perspective.

I know people are human and make mistakes, I hadn't planned on saying anything until she kept talking about how he was not happy.

But I can't shake this bad feeling .
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/04/12 10:36 PM
I'm with you Indie I think you did the right thing. As we know from experience and MB this is how it starts. Sounds like she was also justifying "he's not happy" I know the guy isn't married but he has a gf and baby. May not be adultery but in my book it is still cheating.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 05:09 AM
Bravo, Indie! If more people got a good slap across the face from someone who cared enough to knock some sense into them at the beginning of this road, maybe more nightmares could be avoided. What can she be thinking after being a BW herself? This is what I've never understood - even if she cared nothing for the girlfriend and baby, could just put that out of her mind with no empathy, morals, or compassion whatsoever, what woman wants to mess with a guy like that? Who doesn't marry a woman he has a baby with, and I assume lives with? And then goes out on the prowl besides? What does she think is at the end of this road? DUH!

That's the problem. No one stops to think about the end of the road, only about the half a step in front of them.

Anyway, way to go telling her what you thought. I'm SO glad she turned red and started to think a bit. Hope it sinks in!

Glad you have some job prospects:) Fingers crossed for you!
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 07:50 AM
indie, that's what friends are for! helping you out when you do something stupid! as a bw, i can't believe she trotted out the "you aren't happy at home" line. that's every OWs first shot! i'd'a been pissed!

i hope she was very embarrassed, and takes some time to reflect on her own actions, regardless of his. i wouldn't think she'd like to be in the same position, *again!*

good luck with the job prospects. going to a sucky job ...well, sucks!

did you get to enjoy some black pud today? on our news, they said they were serving it up to the revelers!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 08:39 AM
Originally Posted by rainysweet
Anyway, way to go telling her what you thought. I'm SO glad she turned red and started to think a bit. Hope it sinks in!


I hope so, but I'm very aware that listening to me as a friend long term will cost her some enjoyable, easy attention. She also started talking about how having OS friends when she was married was 'fine' because they saw her as safe, then in the next breath said she did know one of the friends fancied her. It all just got to me, and I went for the jugular.

She was just so proud of herself for not giving in to temptation and did not see (until I pointed it out) she needlessly created that temptation when she didnt have to. When I pulled the situation apart, she did seem to 'get it'. But I wonder if it can really be that easy. Can it be as easy as me pointing out the cause and effect of what went on and so she pays attention and stops it?

I'm not so sure. And I'm not willing to have friends I don't respect. I overlooked q a few character flaws in OWs behaviour around men, when we were younger - and look where that got me.

I suppose only time will tell if she has listened. It would just be such a great shame if she did not.

Originally Posted by Letty
did you get to enjoy some black pud today? on our news, they said they were serving it up to the revelers!


No because I've been working, not revelling! I do have to go cover some street parties though, so I might get offered some. I could always stop off and buy some for dinner though!
Posted By: kerala Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 10:35 AM
What kind of "cheating" is it?

If living together is the epitome of a renter's rel-ship, that would seem to make the whole concept of loyalty and fidelity a non-starter.

That doesn't mean your friend is making good choices. She sounds like a bit of an idiot actually.

But I don't quite get the point of browbeating her about helping someone to cheat.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by kerala
But I don't quite get the point of browbeating her about helping someone to cheat.


I know! It isnt adultery and this man has made no formal promises to his child's mother.. If it had been a case of potential adultery, I would have made efforts to get on the phone to the BW and my friendship with this woman would prob be done.

Like I said, I wasnt even going to mention it because I saw it as simply a slip in her behaviour and as being a bit, momentarily 'unwise'. It wasnt until she gave a speech about her 'restraint' and that she was proud to follow these rules for behaviour on a daily basis, that I cracked. Initially I was worried about her, but now I am worried about me.

It bugs me, not as a question of adultery, but of character. It says a lot about her character that she was willing to cause someone pain for a flutter of admiration. To get cheap attention in that way. To ignore the facts in favour of the 'hes not happy' delusion.

If cheating on a b/f or g/f is not adultery but 'failing the husband interview' isnt being someone who helps that person cheat, failing a friend/character interview?

My best friend, who became the OW in my marriage, loved to have other girls boyfriends show an interest when we were young. The 'Are you happy?' line could have been her. I suppose that triggered me. In fact when I confronted her, she said: "You and WH arent happy and are blaming me" so I responded "It's none of your business how happy we are!"

I struggle to imagine myself being friends with this woman long term now. Would I trust her around my H one day?

When she has OS friendships for attention when she remarries, do I want to be around that? I think it would offend me greatly, even if nothing ever happened.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by kerala
But I don't quite get the point of browbeating her about helping someone to cheat.


I know! It isnt adultery and this man has made no formal promises to his child's mother.. If it had been a case of potential adultery, I would have made efforts to get on the phone to the BW and my friendship with this woman would prob be done.

Like I said, I wasnt even going to mention it because I saw it as simply a slip in her behaviour and as being a bit, momentarily 'unwise'. It wasnt until she gave a speech about her 'restraint' and that she was proud to follow these rules for behaviour on a daily basis, that I cracked. Initially I was worried about her, but now I am worried about me.

It bugs me, not as a question of adultery, but of character. It says a lot about her character that she was willing to cause someone pain for a flutter of admiration. To get cheap attention in that way. To ignore the facts in favour of the 'hes not happy' delusion.

If cheating on a b/f or g/f is not adultery but 'failing the husband interview' isnt being someone who helps that person cheat, failing a friend/character interview?

My best friend, who became the OW in my marriage, loved to have other girls boyfriends show an interest when we were young. The 'Are you happy?' line could have been her. I suppose that triggered me. In fact when I confronted her, she said: "You and WH arent happy and are blaming me" so I responded "It's none of your business how happy we are!"

I struggle to imagine myself being friends with this woman long term now. Would I trust her around my H one day?

When she has OS friendships for attention when she remarries, do I want to be around that? I think it would offend me greatly, even if nothing ever happened.

It sounds like you are struggling with cutting this friendship?

If she isn't friendship material do you want her around?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
If she isn't friendship material do you want her around?


That's the million dollar question, BH. What perplexes me is that we've had many conversations where our morals and values seemed in tune. Being a BW herself, she 'gets' the whole thing I've gone through and that is priceless in a RL friend.

The point I'm at now, I think, is to observe what happens in future. The fact she responded to what I said positively weighs heavily in her favour and I'm inclined to view it as a one-off.

But I'm wary, and usually when you become wary, you see either see other worrying signs, or you see the person respond to your concern in a good way.

In fact, I thought another friend, lets call her J, was a being a bit inappropriate a few months back. Mine and J's other friend who was engaged discovered her fiance had been cheating on her so she broke up with him. The fiance then started to message J on Twitter. J, who is someone I would describe as a very moral person usually, became flattered in spite of herself. The engaged friend told her she was a) being a bad friend and b) she was lining herself up for misery. J listened and did an aboutface when confronted with our engaged friend's wariness of her.

So being wary is good. But it is not comfortable.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 01:38 PM
That sounds like level-headed thinking, Indie. I think you're right.

And I know that cheating on a g/f is not the same as adultery, not the same level. But it's still cheating. If he said she was his g/f, he has a child with her, (not sure - sounded like he even lives with her?), no one should be going in to break that up. The poor lady has settled for garbage, clearly, and he may very well end up being unfaithful and moving on (or not). But it's wrong for another woman to get in the middle of that.

Like you said, with OW years ago, getting attention from other women's b/f's to boost your ego is not a good thing to do.

The "you're not happy" speech makes me want to throw up. Rodent sent me a fb message when I first told her to back off all about how she "hoped I didn't blame the beak-up of my marriage on the fact that OW became involved - clearly we were so unhappy long before she arrived." I should have strangled her back then.

I see what you are saying on both sides. I would watch your friend closely for a bit.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
If she isn't friendship material do you want her around?


That's the million dollar question, BH. What perplexes me is that we've had many conversations where our morals and values seemed in tune. Being a BW herself, she 'gets' the whole thing I've gone through and that is priceless in a RL friend.

The point I'm at now, I think, is to observe what happens in future. The fact she responded to what I said positively weighs heavily in her favour and I'm inclined to view it as a one-off.

So being wary is good. But it is not comfortable.

Indie. But the difference between you and your BW friend is that YOU found MB while BW friend did not. She may understand the hurt but not the reasons behind an affair. This is where you come in as a missionary of the MB principles.

You are very good at helping others. Don't lose sight of that.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
If she isn't friendship material do you want her around?


That's the million dollar question, BH. What perplexes me is that we've had many conversations where our morals and values seemed in tune. Being a BW herself, she 'gets' the whole thing I've gone through and that is priceless in a RL friend.

The point I'm at now, I think, is to observe what happens in future. The fact she responded to what I said positively weighs heavily in her favour and I'm inclined to view it as a one-off.

So being wary is good. But it is not comfortable.

Indie. But the difference between you and your BW friend is that YOU found MB while BW friend did not. She may understand the hurt but not the reasons behind an affair. This is where you come in as a missionary of the MB principles.

You are very good at helping others. Don't lose sight of that.


Thank you! This made me a bit teary. I do make allowances for the fact that others are not MBers.

It's not comfortable being a 'missionary' and I don't want to become one of those people who tell others how to live their lives.

But then again I know I cant help speaking out when I see that stuff, so this is just going to be something that will happen sometimes.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 02:03 PM
Had to jump in here. I have been privy to the MB concepts for a very short time. In that time have come to see a MAJOR lack of boundaries and wayward behavior...everywhere I turn it seems. In friends, in family, even in the newspaper. Our society as a whole seems to be ANTI marriage, and PRO adultery! I am very dismayed at it all.

But, I have to say in response to Pokerface, I have come to the conclusion that MB enlightenment is the grand reason for some of this. I have been wayward without even knowing it frankly, I had no concept of boundaries for a long long time. Now of course a light bulb has gone off, I interact with the opposite sex in an entirely different way (or not at all, to some extent). I see interactions in an entirely different way between others. I have to remember that not everyone has had this enlightenment though.

Good for you Indie for speaking up about this! I personally think anyone with character will be able to be swayed to a 'good boundary' way of thinking once they are enlightened about it. But I do think that most people just do not have the information and perspective we have, certainly society in general doesn't support it.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 02:12 PM
I hear what you are saying about being a missionary about this way of thinking. I recently got into a major heated battle with a friend about wayward foggy thinking and lack of boundaries, and we haven't spoken since. I have kinda wanted to text her a couple times and apologize but then thought no, if she is wayward minded and knows it and embraces it, then it is not my responsibility to turn her around, it is my responsibility to protect myself from her more or less. Kinda not a friend I need in my life right now.

But to me it sounds like your friend just lost her way, and was appreciative to you for helping her find it again.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
I have been wayward without even knowing it frankly, I had no concept of boundaries for a long long time. Now of course a light bulb has gone off, I interact with the opposite sex in an entirely different way


I was incredibly flirty and had OS friends when I was first married. First someone developed feelings for me, but I laughed it off as 'their problem' feeling just the littlest bit guilty that I may have encouraged it. Then someone seemed very persistently attracted to me, but kept quiet about it. I wasnt seeing much of my H and I felt powerfully flattered. This was the turning point for me. I didnt like the feeling. I was actually considering raising it with the guy and luckily for me he wasnt very predatory, I think he just liked the no pressure experience of a crush. So I told my H. This worked for a bit for I didnt really change my behaviours. Then there was some initial attention from another guy, which again I liked and I came to the conclusion that I was 'vain' and that I could no longer court attention and consider it harmless. I was also lucky in that my H was relatively jealous and wouldnt have endured an OS friend.

I am pretty sure that had I an MBer friend during some of these times, they would have torn me a new one and made me feel very ashamed. I muddled through nevertheless.

Sometimes you just have to learn the hard way.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
It's not comfortable being a 'missionary' and I don't want to become one of those people who tell others how to live their lives.

Indie. there is a difference between being self righteous telling people how to live their lives and being a guide.

You are a great guide. smile
Posted By: unwritten Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 02:32 PM
Yes! I have learned the hard way. My H was NOT jealous, or rather he had his own stuff going on now I know so he just didn't want to turn it back on himself I guess. Either way I had free reign to have multiple OS friendships throughout our marriage. Close friendships, what I know now were EA's really I just thought if we don't get sexual in word or action then its just a 'friendship' and not a problem as long as H doesn't mind. And if it ever crossed that line I would immediately go NC with that person and tell my H, so I thought I was golden. So wrong.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 06:42 PM
God its amazing how the pain of an affair can strike you out of nowhere, even a year later.

A week or so ago I thought of Softlad and began crying. It only lasted about fifteen minutes though and then I was fine.

Driving home today, I had a bad spell. The pain just struck me from nowhere, like a stray canonball. Honestly its like having PTSD.

I was thinking of how happy his face was when I walked down thhe aisle on our wedding day. And now I'm crying again just writing this.

I don't know where the thought came from. Its a clear violation of my 'no romantic thoughts' rule. Did a song, a smell, a sight trigger me? I don't know, I just wandered into it.

These times are getting so few and far between, that there is no reason for me to fear them. I know I'm OK.

But it does beg the question: how can he have forgotten organically what I have worked so hard to eradicate? Does he enjoy being miserable and out of control? Or is he so far gone that he doesn't even realise how much he has forgotten?

All rhetorical questions of course. The answers don't matter.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 07:48 PM
YKW? It isn't even PTSD.....its TSD cause he is still betraying you.

You are one loving wife, and that means you are a prize. To the world. The whole world.

Now, dust yourself off and refocus on other things.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/05/12 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by reading
YKW? It isn't even PTSD.....its TSD cause he is still betraying you.
.

I love this.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/12 02:37 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
God its amazing how the pain of an affair can strike you out of nowhere, even a year later.

A week or so ago I thought of Softlad and began crying. It only lasted about fifteen minutes though and then I was fine.

Driving home today, I had a bad spell. The pain just struck me from nowhere, like a stray canonball. Honestly its like having PTSD.

I was thinking of how happy his face was when I walked down thhe aisle on our wedding day. And now I'm crying again just writing this.

I don't know where the thought came from. Its a clear violation of my 'no romantic thoughts' rule. Did a song, a smell, a sight trigger me? I don't know, I just wandered into it.

These times are getting so few and far between, that there is no reason for me to fear them. I know I'm OK.

But it does beg the question: how can he have forgotten organically what I have worked so hard to eradicate? Does he enjoy being miserable and out of control? Or is he so far gone that he doesn't even realise how much he has forgotten?

All rhetorical questions of course. The answers don't matter.

You know I believe this is unfortunately normal, when you love someone even without contact you can't just switch off. Its good to know the times become few and far between. Mine seem to be daily still even without thinking romantically about him, just missing him.

I know it was a rhetorical question ... I'm not answering it, just relating. Even with the knowledge of A and addiction I wondered how a WS could walk away from a long term marriage (in my case 20yrs) without any grief or withdrawal (suppressed emotions) but when the A ends they have obvious withdrawal which they don't suppress.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/12 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
God its amazing how the pain of an affair can strike you out of nowhere, even a year later.

A week or so ago I thought of Softlad and began crying. It only lasted about fifteen minutes though and then I was fine.

Driving home today, I had a bad spell. The pain just struck me from nowhere, like a stray canonball. Honestly its like having PTSD.

I was thinking of how happy his face was when I walked down thhe aisle on our wedding day. And now I'm crying again just writing this.

I don't know where the thought came from. Its a clear violation of my 'no romantic thoughts' rule. Did a song, a smell, a sight trigger me? I don't know, I just wandered into it.

These times are getting so few and far between, that there is no reason for me to fear them. I know I'm OK.

But it does beg the question: how can he have forgotten organically what I have worked so hard to eradicate? Does he enjoy being miserable and out of control? Or is he so far gone that he doesn't even realise how much he has forgotten?

All rhetorical questions of course. The answers don't matter.
Oh wow Indie, you have yet again summed up so eloquently things I have been feeling / thinking. Thank you.

I switched channels the other night. There was a documentary on about Arabic countries. I started watching, enthralled. I used to love watching travel documentaries, with WH. We would reminisce or plan. I have avoided them since D Day. They just hurt. I thought maybe I was strong enough now. I saw abut 15 minutes, and then came on a section on a particular city we had been too. Just hearing the city name, an in-joke about our sex life, triggered me. I turned the TV off and went to bed to read but just couldn't focus. I didn't cry, but was upset.

Sometimes we can't stop the triggers. Sometimes we have no control over them. We can Plan B our WH's, but we can't Plan B life. And I don't want to. I don't want a wayward's self-deception, even if it means less pain. We allow ourselves to feel, to grieve. And learn.

An addict simply keeps running, chasing the next high. No accountability, no responsibility. No thanks.

But the rhetorical questions you ask... sometimes I ask them too. You reassure me this is normal.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/12 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by reading
YKW? It isn't even PTSD.....its TSD cause he is still betraying you.
.

I love this.
X2.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/07/12 10:20 PM
I'm happy again. I bounced into work today and even found myself joking in a meeting with the boss I don't like.

Its funny but I had thought about a week ago I might be descending into a low point. I got very low energy and started eating junk food. But because my sleep patterns remain the same, I dismissed it. Now I'm a bit psyched. The first low point which didn't affect my sleep.

That has to be some sort of milestone. Maybe Ill never have disrupted sleep ever again!

I still feel a bit low in energy but otherwise happy. Its an odd thing this rollercoaster.

I want to figure out when my last low point was, so I'm going to reread my thread.I figure the next one will be further away.

Does anyone think there is a specific recovery period for a BS? Those in recovery take 2 years, so does the same length of time apply for a solo recovery? Could that be part of the reason a BS is told to Plan B for that period?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/07/12 10:46 PM
Indy, I don't know from personal experience, but I've observed that the BS who really does a good Plan B is pretty darn content by 2 years. So, yes, I'd say yes.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/07/12 11:54 PM
That's good news. I wish it was SOONER but maybe I don't understand the great scheme of things.

I would never have wanted to experience infidelity at all, yet it has benefitted me in ways I wouldnt undo. Maybe this is more of the same.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/08/12 07:06 PM
Just had a SEVERE Plan B break. I have Softlad blocked from my work email, because as a reporter it's on the newspaper's website and available for all the world to see. The blocking has worked really well until now, although I knew it wasnļæ½t perfect. Apparently he copied me in when he was contacting my IM about the recent insurance stuff. I didnļæ½t see it at all because he was blocked and I had no idea he was doing that. I only found out today at work when I did a search of all my folders to find a document. The search not only found Softlad's email but I could see the first half of his email in a viewing screen to one side. At first I thought it was an old one that hadnļæ½t deleted properly, but then I saw the word 'insurance'. I'm not sure how a search can bring up a blocked item and I will need to get IT's help on that.

I deleted it without opening it, but I'm a pretty good scan reader so I got some of it first from the side view screen. It was awful. I felt violated that his thoughts and feelings made their way on to my desk (or whatever passes for a wayward's thoughts and feelings)

What I saw was him being incredibly polite and helpful - probably fake helpful - in the first par and his phrasing was such that seemed to be offering his help in 'working this out' to my IM. Though he never actually did. She told me he wouldnļæ½t trust her with the name of the insurance company so he called me at work in an extremely thoughtless attempt to use the break in to manipulate me.

Still I was disappointed that he didn't sound like a totally rambling fogged out freak. Like he did just after exposure. Probably you would have to look closer than I did to see it. Though I don't think of him much, I have this image of him as a completely nutso wayward. It's because I dismiss him as 'another wayward' and whenever there's a particularly aggravating wayward on the boards, I assume he is the same. I know I am right as I've never seen one deviate from the pattern.

I feel all right though. One more reason to quit this job. I need to get to work on that.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/08/12 07:15 PM
Sorry, Hon frown I've never heard of a blocked email being able to get through like that! Do something nice for yourself today ...
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/08/12 07:20 PM
Cake!

that was easy
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/08/12 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
God its amazing how the pain of an affair can strike you out of nowhere, even a year later.

A week or so ago I thought of Softlad and began crying. It only lasted about fifteen minutes though and then I was fine.

Driving home today, I had a bad spell. The pain just struck me from nowhere, like a stray canonball. Honestly its like having PTSD.

I was thinking of how happy his face was when I walked down thhe aisle on our wedding day. And now I'm crying again just writing this.

Sorry to hear about the Plan B break. When it rains, it pours, huh?

Wanted to mention that I read a posting by DoNoMo a while back that once you are triggered by something that makes you sad, you have about 90 seconds to redirect your thoughts before the emotions/chemicals in the brain kick in.

I was actively practicing this for a while and then kinda forgot about it. But recently, was triggered all over again when STBX-BIL contacted me (I am in Plan B with all of my in-laws as they threw me under the bus when I exposed affair #3 last year) It was a setback..but I have begun to do this again. It really works!

Hugs and hang in there smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/08/12 07:41 PM
That sounds amazing, Susie, thanks!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/08/12 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
That sounds amazing, Susie, thanks!

Enjoy the cake my friend. smile
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/08/12 09:30 PM
cake makes everything better :O)

how awful, indie, to be shocked and surprised in that manner, when you're in a "safe" place. i'm sorry.

hang in there. nothing wrong with a second piece of cake (in my book, anyhow!)
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/12 05:14 AM
I say just grab a fork and dig in. Who's' counting slices? grin

I like SusieQ's thought on having 90 seconds to redirect your thoughts. My in-laws all recently threw me under the bus too, SQ (well, most). Had to Plan B them as well. Sad.

Indie, you are awesome - an inspiration. Nice to know you're human. I think the universe is really urging you to look for another job - your deal, of course. But just a thought.

Hugs. And sooo glad you chose cake over blood pudding. See how rational you are even in the face of grave emotional distress? smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/12 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by rainysweet
Hugs. And sooo glad you chose cake over blood pudding. See how rational you are even in the face of grave emotional distress? smile


Hahahahaha! Actually there's a farm on my newspatch who make the most amazing ice cream and they introced a new flavour recently - black pudding flavour! I instantly thought I should share the news here and gross everybody out.

That's a bit too weird, even for me.

I decided to go for a nice custard slice instead. I don't think you have these over the pond. The bakers make two sheets of pastry, to go above and below a thick wedge of custard.and the top layer gets a sticky cover of icing. Then they slice it up so each slice resembles an ice cream sandwich but with pastry layers as wafers and the custard as the ice cream.

Yum!

I have no idea how many calories but I should probably get moving in the garden if this rain EVER let's up!

Were now into typical English summer - fine misty rain for the last ten days and moving into heavy, come at you sideways type rain.

Originally Posted by rainysweet
Nice to know you're human. I think the universe is really urging you to look for another job - your deal, of course. But just a thought.


I can indeed confirm that I am human! This made me giggle so much.

In fact I need to put aside my human dread of paper work or 'grown up homework' today. I need to get financial stuff for the divorce sorted and I need to look for that elusive job! I may go so far as to apply for some even though the form filling required nowadays kinda makes you go 'Do I really need another job?!'

Then I have to get cracking with maths revision for my exam on Wednesday. This will be a real demon slaying moment (I hope). I was terrible at maths in school and left without the relevant qualification. While 16 year olds up and down the country will be sitting the exam, so will I - for the second time. I'm going to give it my best, anyway.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/12 06:23 AM
I can't maths, either, but I aced algebra in my 40's due to great teachers and perserverence.

You can do this, and excell, and then forget it all again. laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/12 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by CWMI
You can do this, and excell, and then forget it all again. laugh


That's my plan! However I did tell someone recently they had to balance work and home and found myself saying "its like both sides of an equation" that stopped me cold! WHERE did that come from!
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/12 07:46 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Still I was disappointed that he didn't sound like a totally rambling fogged out freak. Like he did just after exposure. Probably you would have to look closer than I did to see it. Though I don't think of him much, I have this image of him as a completely nutso wayward. It's because I dismiss him as 'another wayward' and whenever there's a particularly aggravating wayward on the boards, I assume he is the same. I know I am right as I've never seen one deviate from the pattern.
I know I expect Gollum to actually have started to look like the creature Smeagal became, and even to babble on about his "precious" as part of the fog-speak.

But actually, I think many waywards become pretty good at masking their waywardness, just as many alcoholics hide their addiction. If a wayward seethes and rants, everyone will steer clear. So a wayward, who, after all, wants as many needs met as possible, plays nice to undermine the betrayed and deceive themselves that they really are a nice person after all. If only that damned BS would play ball and be amicable, "civilised" as Gollum put it during Plan A, then we could all sit down and have cucumber sandwiches for high tea.

crazy Aren't we lucky that Plan B means we don't have to listen to the nutso anymore. Unfortunately I can't escape waywards in my everyday life, but if I spend more than five minutes with them, the justification and nutso dramaqueen soon becomes apparent.

I just can't believe we didn't notice them all IRL before Plan B.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/12 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Hahahahaha! Actually there's a farm on my newspatch who make the most amazing ice cream and they introced a new flavour recently - black pudding flavour! I instantly thought I should share the news here and gross everybody out.

That's a bit too weird, even for me.

Eeew, gross!

I tried olive oil ice cream a few weeks ago. I thought it sounded unusual, and it was de-lic-ious!

The choc and hazelnut parfait with mint and citrus salad that accompanied it may have helped as well...

Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/12 07:49 AM
And good luck on the exam Indie!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/12 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by Caracal
But actually, I think many waywards become pretty good at masking their waywardness, just as many alcoholics hide their addiction. .....
I just can't believe we didn't notice them all IRL before Plan B.


Fascinating! I think you're right. And they ARE everywhere. Like flies. Sometimes its easy to spot one. Like the cousin who was my good childhood friend but as soon as I became betrayed she didn't speak to me or make eye contact at family partys. Too busy with her boyfriend who wasn't divorced when they met. And his toddler children.

Then there's the old schoolfriend I bumped into and had lunch with. Had an amazing time though it stopped me in my tracks when she said I am free to 'lap up attention' now. Then she mentions she divorced her husband because she 'loved him but was not in love with him'. Blood runs cold and I excuse myself.

I LOVE your image of Gollum!!!

Originally Posted by Caracal
The choc and hazelnut parfait with mint and citrus salad that accompanied it may have helped as well...


Now that's a Plan B diet!
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/12 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Caracal
The choc and hazelnut parfait with mint and citrus salad that accompanied it may have helped as well...


Now that's a Plan B diet!
Now there's a thread... the Plan B must haves diet!

Of course, we have to combat the calorie intake with exercise, in true Plan B fashion.

But still... it sounds like a winner thread. I even think those wanting to seek different experiences might try your black pud Indie, although I would much rather suggest lamingtons and pavlova.

As for FLIES... I even have a cousin who proposed to an OW whilst still MARRIED (OK, his WW first ran off with the OM before he met OW but still!!!) He was actually frantically waiting for his divorce to be final, as the wedding was scheduled for a few days after. His father even rang my mother complaining that the ceremony may go ahead if the legalities of it were not sorted.

This cousin recently said in suprise to me, why have I not hooked up with someone else? I think my face said it all.

By the way, for those reading and thinking replacement of the WS may cure our pain... my cousin's wife looks miserable, at all family gatherings. I think it is just a matter of time before history repeats itself.

I would rather be lonely whilst I heal and better myself then deal with adultery again.

I hope history does not repeat itself in my case. And if it does... I will handle myself a 1000 times better anyways.

Oops, TJ over (again) Indie!
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/12 03:20 PM
New experiences? And blood pudding? Nooo

I'll stick with trying to figure out how to put in a sprinkler system on my own. Thanks for the thought though, Cara.

Good luck on the math, Indie! Wish I could help you. Unfortunately, writing would be my strong suit too, and I teach 7 & 8-year-olds for a reason - I can still do the math. smile
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/09/12 03:26 PM
I loved the Gollum description too. Sometimes I look at pinoke pretending to be this calm, rational, reasonable individual, portraying me as the psychopath, and I just want to rip off the mask and expose him for what he is. HATE that! Too bad they can't have some magic screen on their chest that reveals what's in their messed up hearts and heads all the time.

A paraphrased quote from the stirring novel, Despereaux, which I just read to my students, discussing the poor RAT, Roscuro:

He was free to move between the castle upstairs and the dungeon below, back and forth between darkness and light, but he never really belonged in either place. Alas, reader, such is the fate of those whose hearts are broken and mend in crooked ways.

Maybe if Pinoke's heart ever broke again, and could actually heal in the right way - pray for that and move along, I guess.
Originally Posted by CWMI
I can't maths, either, but I aced algebra in my 40's due to great teachers and perserverence.

You can do this, and excell, and then forget it all again. laugh
ITA. Had the same experience aceing electronics calculations right up to simultaneous equations when I was in my late twenties, I think I mentioned that before to you

Yeah I didnt even know times tables and was quite rusty on everything, having given up at 6th grade, and barely passed my GED

But it's awesome how God preserves us in our humility, if we allow it

Surprised to find out I have a rather high IQ and not only aced the class, but blew away the regular college students and the engineer who were in the class too

Determination and insisting you can do it, like it is allready predestined

I for one belive it is so with you

Oh great idea on the 90 sec thing
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/10/12 10:57 AM
hug

Sorry that you had that bit of a slip. I wanted to let you know though, no worries, Softlad is most definitely just as typical as any wayward. Believe me. wink

Good luck on your maths. Don't eat anymore gross things Hehehhehehehe

driving on by.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/13/12 07:58 PM
It DOES make me feel better to hear that, Scot so thanks. Its an odd state of affairs to be reassured by the news you're married to a crackpot, but there it is!

Had my exam this morning. No idea how I did. I didn't freak out (entirely) at the sight of the questions, so I'm taking that as a good sign.

Afterwards I went shopping for a new back door with my Dad and went economy crazy with coupons and vouchers in a budget supermarket. So I had a very productive day!

I'm going to cook up lots of bulk recipes and freeze stuff to save money. I've already frozen lots of ham and pastrami sandwiches for lunches. My BiL made me some home made piccalilli for them, yum! Love those Indian spices. Specially with mayo.

One thing nobody mentions about Plan B is the effect on your spending habits. You're in a miserable mood and you feel like you deserve treats. I'm a true shopper and even though I balk at expensive stuff I like to do it A LOT. Only my friends' love of swap parties has saved me really.

This has to stop NOW! If I'm going to afford the trip to India. Divorces are expensive, too.

I'm going to dinner at my friends house tomorrow, and none of us are drinking because we all live too far away from each other and it's a school night.

I thought we needed something nice to gossip over though, so I've made some elderflower cordial to take.

Talk about saving money! I got the flowers from my parents' elder tree, mixed them with boiling water, lemons and sugar and voila!

The house smells amazing. All lemony and the flowers gave off a honey smell when they were infused. In the morning I'm going to seive it into a pretty glass bottle and pop a ribbon gift label on it.

I can't believe I've been buying this stuff. Making it is so easy!
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/12 04:48 AM
mmm, that's sounds delicious!

here in nz, people are really into making stuff from scratch and not buying things. since we don't have ready-to-go food, i cook all our meals from scratch using my mother's 1960s wedding present cookbook. it's great! i also like making my own body scrub, cleaning agents, etc. although not as cheap here because the ingredients aren't as cheap as in the USA. but we do have a place called Bin Inn where you can bring your containers and buy just what you need/want for ingredients. i love them!

i have a swiffer mop (do you have these in the uk?) and made my own "refill" with my DDs original nappies. soooo glad my H didn't let me get rid of them all those years ago. they are super for lots of things!
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/12 08:54 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
It DOES make me feel better to hear that, Scot so thanks. Its an odd state of affairs to be reassured by the news you're married to a crackpot, but there it is!
Hahaha, I remember early in Plan B when I was still foggy, my IM read a post on here and rang me to say rather sternly "Caracal, he is as wayward as any other".

I too felt relief that my sitch was no different, as bizarre as it sounds...
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/12 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I'm going to dinner at my friends house tomorrow, and none of us are drinking because we all live too far away from each other and it's a school night.

I thought we needed something nice to gossip over though, so I've made some elderflower cordial to take.

Talk about saving money! I got the flowers from my parents' elder tree, mixed them with boiling water, lemons and sugar and voila!

The house smells amazing. All lemony and the flowers gave off a honey smell when they were infused. In the morning I'm going to seive it into a pretty glass bottle and pop a ribbon gift label on it.

I can't believe I've been buying this stuff. Making it is so easy!
Indie, I just wanted to let you know that reading your thread at times makes me feel like I have entered a boutique gift shop, and am browsing amongst the many beautiful and girly things I might like to purchase...

Hey, did you end up doing your application for the job last weekend?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/14/12 10:04 AM
No!!!!!

I'm shockingly remiss. Part of it is I hate those long forms they make you fill out nowadays and I view it as grown up homework. Then whenever I grit my teeth to do it, things always go wrong. I spent half of Saturday trying to get a borrowed laptop set up with a new dongle I'd bought. Most jobs seem to be online these days with online forms I cant access on my silly phone.

Turns out the laptop is too old to support the dongle, which is why it kept crashing. So I was back to square one. Then I had to abandon that project and get moving with revision for the exam. And I got my divorce docs sent off, too which is also q important.

With those two things out of the way, the job hunt is definitely a priority now. I'm out tonight and working the weekend, so that leaves Friday night. Might camp out at my parent's place and use their internet to get it done.

I travel way too far for work. Im blowing too much money on petrol. Its not good for the environment or my Plan B!!!

How did you get on with your application?

Originally Posted by Caracal
Indie, I just wanted to let you know that reading your thread at times makes me feel like I have entered a boutique gift shop, and am browsing amongst the many beautiful and girly things I might like to purchase...


Its funny you should say that because I do feel my world is prettier these days. In the past I'd buy some art or something for the garden and WH would go: "thats weird" or "I dont like sitting in the garden" so of course I'd take it back. I love how selfish and 'Plan Me' Plan B is.

My friend who stayed a few weekends back asked what I had done to the living room and I couldnt answer her. There were a few knick knacks added, that's all. One of them was a gift from her - a cartoon hero and heroine kissing in a guilt frame as a gag valentines (my birthday) gift. I siad 'Nothing' in surprise and she said: "It's a much prettier and girly house now, but I can't put my finger on what it is"
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/12 05:09 AM
How did the exams go, Indie? I skimmed back through, but sorry if I missed it. I picture you in this beautiful, romantic cottage, surrounded by flowers. lashes

Best of luck on that, the applications, and the D. Sorry for you on that. hug

Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/12 08:16 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
With those two things out of the way, the job hunt is definitely a priority now. I'm out tonight and working the weekend, so that leaves Friday night. Might camp out at my parent's place and use their internet to get it done.

I travel way too far for work. Im blowing too much money on petrol. Its not good for the environment or my Plan B!!!

How did you get on with your application?
Its Friday night here, morning for you... I'm reminding you of your priority tonight, hehehe!

I know about commuting over in UK. It wore me down to a frazzle, it really is EXHAUSTING. I LOVE being able to walk to work in 20 minutes here, or drive in five.

I'm no better with my application... well, I did at least contact the company, but discovered it would involve a move. Not what I'm after right now.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Its funny you should say that because I do feel my world is prettier these days. In the past I'd buy some art or something for the garden and WH would go: "thats weird" or "I dont like sitting in the garden" so of course I'd take it back. I love how selfish and 'Plan Me' Plan B is.

My friend who stayed a few weekends back asked what I had done to the living room and I couldnt answer her. There were a few knick knacks added, that's all. One of them was a gift from her - a cartoon hero and heroine kissing in a guilt frame as a gag valentines (my birthday) gift. I siad 'Nothing' in surprise and she said: "It's a much prettier and girly house now, but I can't put my finger on what it is"
I wonder if it is your personality shining through Indie?

I LOVE how Plan B allows us to focus on whatever WE want without thought of a partner. Before, I used to seek approval from H when buying something, or show him after to get consent it was okay. Now... I really have to curb my shopping appetite! As for girly, my mother pointed out some dark coloured towels recently, making the practical suggestion I get them for my new home. My response? Without a H who did manual labour, I can get the lightest, prettiest towels I want!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/15/12 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by rainysweet
I picture you in this beautiful, romantic cottage, surrounded by flowers.


Oh I must burst your bubble, Rainy. I don't live in a pretty cottage!

I live in a former council house. (Puts history hat and teacher specs on) CHs were built by the government in the 40s and 50s to replace the tenements and terraced houses destroyed in the blitz.

There were also a way to give working class people better living conditions, as many peoples homes didn't have running water. CHs are boxy, very uniform and quite uninspiring but they are larger and brighter than traditional terraced homes. CH tenants paid rent directly to local government (the council) and many people purchased their council houses in the 80s under the 'right to buy' scheme.

We bought the house from an old lady who was a right to buyer. She was clearly from the 'old neighbourhood' of the inner city, like my own grandparents were before they were shipped out to the 'new town' of council houses in the nearby countryside. Which is now suburbia.

There are a few cottages dotted about though. The new town I live in was originally a lord's estate and there are some cottages which his labourers and some independant farmers would have lived in.

There's a wood a few streets back behind my house. I forage there because its full of fruit and berries. There're quite a few cottages spread along there and they're in great demand because they have character and our town is smack bang between two cities making it good for commuters.

There are two close together that have been turned into one cottage. Been on the market for months. It's covered in ivy and wisteria and looks fantastic with Christmas lights.

I would LOVE to live there. Buts its worth about ļæ½350,000 and my house is worth about ļæ½80,000.

Besides which my friends are telling me to look at getting into a city, near a good job and an active social life and they're right.

For now, the corner council house in my little suburban square will do.(corner plots have bigger gardens, a bit like the corner piece of the brownie pan being larger!). It's been splashed with my sense of style. Or will be when I get a hall carpet and repaint my kitchen and bedroom.

Maybe the super cottage will be available when me and the future Mr Indie are looking for a family home near the best babysitter in the world. My marmee!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/12 04:06 PM
Sometimes life stacks up to destroy your Plan B happiness. Not in big ways but in a thousand little ways that are very annoying.

I hate rain. I know I live in the worst corner of the world for such a sentiment, but I do! The Met Office has issued an amber warning for floods and driving to work this morning was like driving along the bottom of a swimming pool. At least it's not a red alert. Not even my huge transparent Lulu Guiness umbrella with red roses on it makes up for SO much rain. And I discovered a leak in my boots. And I can't afford new ones. Or rather I shouldnļæ½t buy stuff right now. I'm going to try and patch it up with shoe goo.

Money is tight. I need to save up for this India trip in October and I had thought I'd be done paying solicitors and be divorced by now. I hadnļæ½t counted on the burglary either and the fact that we had an insurance excess.

But I am going to India if I need to live on beans and soup between now and then.

But today I am working my nana's economy dish of Scouse. It's the only antidote to rain. Potato stew cooked slowly until it's all rich and mushy. I bought a cheap neck end cut of lamb and the sweetest baby veggies I could get on sale to flavour the stock. And crusty bread! Welsh lamb is the only benefit to the rain we get here. All that rain makes very green grass which makes fantastic lamb. It doesnļæ½t quite make up for wearing black opaque tights in June though. I'm going to indulge in a bit of Scouse tonight with red wine, and chocolate tiffin.

I've been cooking a lot more and stocking the freezer to save money. There's already a nice Bolognese in there, chilli made with Pinto beans, a Spanishy fish stew and Chorizo and chickpea stew. (Rain makes me want to eat stew)

Then tomorrow I have a campfire party to go to (assuming the rain doesnļæ½t put it out) and watch the Olympic torch pass through Lancashire before going to a comedy club with friends

On Sunday I'm going to be a good girl and look for a new job. When I've checked sites this week there has been nothing! Grrrr.

I don't think working in the garden is going to be an option. But working on my life is probably a much better plan anyway.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/12 06:32 PM
Make smores at your campfire. laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/12 08:27 PM
BH, I fear that is an unattainable dream.

First there seems to be no English equivalent for Graham crackers - and second the campfire has been cancelled!

Lots of the Olympic events have been due to the rain.

But there's an indoor music festival happening with lots of hay bales, live music and snacks.

So I will make do with that. Some foods need to be left on their native soil to encourage you to travel, anyway.

When I first came to the states it was 1996 and I was bowled over by the coffee. It was delicious! This was before Starbucks invaded our shores. At the time even half-decent coffee was hard to find in Britain. Now its everywhere.

That's nice, but it sort of takes some of the fun out of travelling.

Its like British people who won't go out of the country without packing tea bags and little long life mini cartons of English milk. So they can have a 'proper brew'

No, no. That's for returning home to. You aren't supposed to have a cup of tea on a balcony in Greece!
Posted By: estrela Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/12 08:38 PM
Unless it is mint tea!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/12 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by estrela
Unless it is mint tea!


EXACTLY
Posted By: estrela Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/12 08:55 PM
But then the brits would not call it a tea, right? It would be an infusion or something similar.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/12 09:13 PM
Oh no, tea is tea.

All tea is a type of infusion. It doesn't matter what of. Its a verb really. Describes the method rather than the plant.

Because the preference in Britain leans greatly toward black tea leaves with milk, if you say 'want a cup of tea?' That's what's expected to appear.

But we call other types of infusions mint tea or herbal tea.

I absolutley adore Morrocan mint tea. I can't make it here though, even though I bought the dried stuff in Marrakech and I grow fresh mint to add to it. There's a knack to it that escapes me.

I especially like the tea culture, of taking your time over a pot, which still persists in those countries, but which we've lost here.

When my mum was a little girl, all cups of tea were the result of loose leaf tea, in a teapot, kept warm with a tea cosy while it was given the proper amount of time to draw. Milk in the cup first.

I do that sometimes. On a very unusual Sunday. Usually its a teabag in a mug stirred clockwise then anti clockwise then milk dunked in. Boiling hot water of course. I still have some standards.

Then out come the chocolate digestives for dunking! Better than ice cream.
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/22/12 11:22 PM
i one put a dab of cream from a lamington in my tea. turned out it was mock cream. tea immediately poured down sink. nothing worse than a dollop of congealed uck floating in your teacup!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/23/12 01:31 AM
You foreigners are funny with your chocolate and mock cream and your cuppas. Love it!! laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/07/12 11:14 PM
Low points are really odd things in Plan B.

I can see one coming a mile away now. They don't even feel very sad for most of it.

I stay up a lot later, not wanting to go to bed or falling asleep on the couch. I eat junk food and go mad for chocolate. My fairly poor housekeeping, which improved after Plan A, gets laxer than ever before. Funnily enough it doesn't affect my work, even though I've had enough of the job.

This low point has been running on for about two weeks and it's annoyed me, because a session of tears usually ends it, but there've been no sign of tears.

I cried a little today, though. I remembered a time when I sat him down and asked him why he wasn't spending time with me. I asked him if I was boring. He spent ages reassuring me, but did nothing afterwards to spend more time with me. He allowed me to carry on believing I was unloveable to 'spare' me from the truth.

I only got misty for about a minute. Not even enough to mess up my mascara. Then on the way home I stopped for McDonalds. I do get a bit more 'junk foody' when I work the weekend, but I think its because my low point is not over.

I think you can be a bit too strong in Plan B and that's my problem. It's just the way I'm made. My mother has been complaining about it for years. She says she knows I'm upset before I do.

Because of that, I can make decisions without my feelings hindering me, but I also suck at grieving. I shouldn't have to watch out for these little signs.

But then its probably the same for everyone. It takes time for things to come to the surface and to be processed. Otherwise all BSs would be doing great one week after Dday.

So I have lots to divert me anyway. I need to figure out how to pack for India in October lightly enough to carry everything on my back but still leave room for my GHDs. I've tried a few 'au naturel' hair dos for work this week and I was utterly miserable! Hey perhaps that explains the low point.

My economising has been going well. I spend much less now and can't believe I didn't do this years ago. Much easier when you only have yourself to please though.

I'm also preparing for a 1940s ball for a friends birthday in September. I got a great wine colored dress with a deep back v at a swap party and I've bought a little capelet shrug to go over it. Silver peep toe sandals and vintage earrings. Now I just have to figure out the hair. 40s hair looks difficult!

Next saturday will be a bit of an energetic one, so I'd better get out of my low point. We have all gotten seriously unfit since pledging to hike up ben nevis, so were doing some hill walking. Then we're going out dancing!

I was in the pub with one of my fellow hikers last night. She told me not to let people bully me into dating because she thinks its been seriously good for me. She said I've never looked as happy as I do right now...

So I suppose one year in, my low points aren't so low as they once were. They are annoying and I wish they would go away... But sometimes unpleasant things and experiences are good for us in a way we can't anticipate..
Posted By: WHisapastor Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/09/12 04:11 AM
Thanks so much for your transparency Indie. Low points are a part of Plan B that can't be ignored or covered up. It's quite encouraging to me to read that a MB whom I hold in high regard struggles with feelings similar to mine. I feel somewhat validated, you know? That it's okay when I have those low points as long as I'm working through them. I see that I'm not alone or a "special case".
Originally Posted by indiegirl
sometimes unpleasant things and experiences are good for us in a way we can't anticipate..
Very wise words Indie. You articulate your thoughts so clearly and beautifully.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/12/12 08:43 PM
Thank you, Whip that means a lot.

The whole point of my 'blogging' one year into Plan B is to show other Plan Bers what's coming.

While the last year has been SO WONDERFUL and freeing, I am actually considering ADs, having never taken them up to this point.

In the past, the low points, while awful, were healed with tears and were very short lived.

The tears all seem gone now, and while what's left isn't painful at all, it doesn't seem too healthy right now.

It's been about three weeks now of having no 'va va voom' at all. For no apparent reason. I find myself on the couch at odd hours in the morning eating crap. My house looks like it's been stirred with a stick. Everything takes much more effort than it should and I don't see any sign of tears, which would usually end the low point.

I'm having fun when I see friends and I can 'rise' to occasions. I can muster up energy to whip up a clean up, or do something that's been pressing but then I am wiped out.

I am not sleeping properly and that's something I nag so many other people to sort out.

I think maybe the time has come.
Have you tried working out?
Aggressively of course, that seems to put the chemicals that address depression in balance and of course, will help with sleeping too.

Yeah I hear ya
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/12 07:31 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Thank you, Whip that means a lot.

The whole point of my 'blogging' one year into Plan B is to show other Plan Bers what's coming.

While the last year has been SO WONDERFUL and freeing, I am actually considering ADs, having never taken them up to this point.

In the past, the low points, while awful, were healed with tears and were very short lived.

The tears all seem gone now, and while what's left isn't painful at all, it doesn't seem too healthy right now.

It's been about three weeks now of having no 'va va voom' at all. For no apparent reason. I find myself on the couch at odd hours in the morning eating crap. My house looks like it's been stirred with a stick. Everything takes much more effort than it should and I don't see any sign of tears, which would usually end the low point.

I'm having fun when I see friends and I can 'rise' to occasions. I can muster up energy to whip up a clean up, or do something that's been pressing but then I am wiped out.

I am not sleeping properly and that's something I nag so many other people to sort out.

I think maybe the time has come.

oh yes, indie, i'm so glad you keep posting so that others can follow along.

a three week period when you're blue, house is a mess, and you're eating rubbish? sounds like someone shouldn't have given up ADs? maybe, do you think?

ps: i am very jealous of your wine-coloured dress! i am wearing chocolate brown to the ball, but i wish it were a smaller size :O) had to have some decorative tulle put in the bustline - i love the sweetheart neckline, but my massive boobs are too much for a boy's ball! last year i stayed covered up in a wrap, but boy, did i sweat! no wrap this year. man, i wish i could sew better too.

chin up, girl. it's the weekend, it's summer, and you're a year into pb and *safe.* (i know, when you're blue it's like none of that matters :O(
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/12 10:10 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
The whole point of my 'blogging' one year into Plan B is to show other Plan Bers what's coming.

While the last year has been SO WONDERFUL and freeing, I am actually considering ADs, having never taken them up to this point.

In the past, the low points, while awful, were healed with tears and were very short lived.

The tears all seem gone now, and while what's left isn't painful at all, it doesn't seem too healthy right now.

It's been about three weeks now of having no 'va va voom' at all. For no apparent reason. I find myself on the couch at odd hours in the morning eating crap. My house looks like it's been stirred with a stick. Everything takes much more effort than it should and I don't see any sign of tears, which would usually end the low point.

I'm having fun when I see friends and I can 'rise' to occasions. I can muster up energy to whip up a clean up, or do something that's been pressing but then I am wiped out.

I am not sleeping properly and that's something I nag so many other people to sort out.

I think maybe the time has come.
Indie, I love that you keep blogging. Just when I start to think "am I the only Plan B'er thinking / feeling this?", you come along and share that no, I am not.

Maybe on your thread I should just post "ditto". grin

I have also started thinking again about AD's, having not taken any up to this point. My energy is flagging. I am doing really well with work, but come 2pm each afternoon, I look and feel whacked. So much so that people comment, and I am now full-time, so they notice more.

My sleeping has not recovered yet. I have been thinking for a while, I need to get myself to a doctor.

And my cleanliness... I have always been a bit of a fanatic, but not any more.

On a plus side, I stress a lot less about the little things and have eased up on myself a lot in Plan B.

You'll know if the time has come. Speak with a doctor and see what they have to say.

And please keep blogging. You help us other Plan B'ers feel normal! laugh
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/12 10:25 AM
Well I had another 'mini' cry today. Very unusual. All the other Plan B low points have been v short and concluded with a big weepy session.

This one is ekeing out, like a dripping tap. I don't feel blue or sad at all though. Just feel like there is a pressure to be relieved. Like I don't have enough fuel.

I got some energy back after the first mini cry so I am hoping to see some more arrive.

It better. I'm going on a hike tomorrow then danging all night.

The mini cry was prompted by thoughts of attempting recovery. It would worry so many people who love me. People who shouldn't have to fear for me. The new life, and my present life, doesn't doesn't upset me at all. That's all good.

I wonder if I don't have anything left to cry about in the past. Maybe I'm all cried out there.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/12 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Well I had another 'mini' cry today. Very unusual. All the other Plan B low points have been v short and concluded with a big weepy session.

This one is ekeing out, like a dripping tap. I don't feel blue or sad at all though. Just feel like there is a pressure to be relieved. Like I don't have enough fuel.
I very rarely cry now. Actually, I can't remember the last cry. Occasionally, I get a few tears well up, but they don't seem to come out anymore.

This, from the Plan B'er who initially sobbed for HOURS on end. I wish I was kidding.

Crying takes a lot of energy. I notice my energy is low. I don't think I have the energy for big weepy sessions anymore. I now have the control to be able to spend this energy more wisely.


Originally Posted by indiegirl
It better. I'm going on a hike tomorrow then danging all night.
I hope you mean dancing dance2 Cause danging I just ain't familiar with! Have a good hike / dang tomorrow indie!

Originally Posted by indiegirl
I wonder if I don't have anything left to cry about in the past. Maybe I'm all cried out there.
I wonder this sometimes too. For me, underneath it all, I still have a lot of emotions. I know this whenever I think I have the D papers in hand. No matter how prepared I am, I KNOW there will be tears with this. Part of the natural grief process that should accompany D... unless wayward.
Yeah Gurls, your part of this family, and you don't get out thateasy

At first when you realize the potential in the heartache/freedom of the exposed adultry, ppl are in that state of shock and awe that also comes with it's rollercoaster of highs and lows

When I was suggesting aggressive working out as an application it was more than normal good idea, it also gets us back in the fight.

Yeah, Go from, "How can they do this to me?", to "Screw those losers" until your back in fighting form again and you enjoy the workout. This also takes time and discipline

Maybe I'm dead wrong and its allready part of your routine.aube your all ready for the olympics, but from what I know the chemical changes of ceratonin from excercise and diet are the better choice than anti DS

Anti DS do help some ppl and not ruling them out as an option, but to me, a mock punching them sqaurly in the nose and the confidence and chemical boost from working off that aggression gets to the heart of the depression

Having had my share of depression I realized it was frustration turned to anger within much of the time

Don't let the buggers get ya down. This takes time to heal
Indie, thanks for still posting. It is really helpful to see, and allows us to remain a community through this horrifying experience! If there weren't long term plan B'ers on here, posting regularly, I probably would have drifted off and I need the advice and support on here for my personal recovery. I think it benefits us all.

I think it's interesting that you identify what thoughts are triggering this down period (attempting recovery) and yet you only share how others would react to that. How would YOU react at this point if there were serious repentance on the part of your WH? How high are your standards? Are you worried they are too high, too low?

About anti-depressants. I've been on Zoloft for about 7 months now. I've found them helpful in keeping me even tempered (mostly!), in keeping me clear thinking, and in letting me have time to process things before I react. But one problem I have is exactly what you describe...feeling like you need to get a good cry out but not being able to get over the edge. It's as if it's just suppressed my depressed feelings rather than eliminated them, so in some ways I feel it makes it harder to process through the sadness. And that is a stage of grief. But I'm definitely positive about them overall, especially with my kids, because it keeps me together a lot more than I'd be otherwise, and I notice a change if I ever forget to take them, and at this point, it's not a change for the good.

Hang in there, and realize all your feelings are valid: the wistful ones, the mourning ones, the angry ones, the hopeless ones, the hopeful ones, etc.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/12 12:11 PM
Yes Caracal, I did mean dancing! Don't use that dancy icon, though. You know you have the power to make it rain in the UK when you do that, and we've already had the wettest June on record in the UK since records began in 1910!

You need to concentrate your powers more over London than here in the North West, but try not to cause too much flooding.

For the first time in my life I spent more than five quid on an umbrella this spring. I bought a ļæ½38 Lulu Guiness umbrella clear dome plastic one (It's practically a tent) with big red roses curling all over it. I know how much rain depresses me (It's all making sense now, isn't it?)
and I wanted something pretty to look at on rainy days and to keep myself dry.

There have been gale force winds too that would have destoyed a cheaper umbrella.

My mother accuses me of supernatural powers and somehow knowing how bad this summer was going to be!

CP = I think you're right that exercise will do a lot. I think tomorrow will help some, and maybe that will give me the motivation to build on that and be a bit more regularly and aggresively active. Lately Ive felt like I would rather eat my own eye than work out. But I like doing sociable things like hiking and dancing.

Originally Posted by JenniferVoyager
you only share how others would react to that. How would YOU react at this point if there were serious repentance on the part of your WH? How high are your standards? Are you worried they are too high, too low?


Oh they're super duper high. I have zero interest in recovering because my life has been so much better in Plan B. I would hear him out but he would need to be incredibly impressive to get my attention. I would only give him a hearing out of respect for the fact we are married. And I would need to see.... oh I dont know something that reminds me of the grace and dignity of FWSs on this forum. He would have to blow me away. I've told my IM that I am not to be bothered with any messages after the divorce is final. After that I don't care, no matter how repentant he would be.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/12 03:39 PM
Just got an email from solicitor.

Date for my Decree Nisi is July 25. I can apply for the Decree Absolute just six weeks later and I'll be divorced, as long as financial stuff doesn't hold it up.

It's real. Got all weird and shaky, but ultimately, I'm relieved an end is in sight.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/12 03:42 PM
hug to you, my friend.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/12 05:41 PM
hug
Grats I guess, although it really should be a hug girl.

( this is the part when the Gurls start hitting the boys and saying, "You men just don't understand")

But I would like to think we understand one thing as men, and that is honor

He is the loser, The man is never supposed to be the quitter, or lie to manipulate female emotions, or soil his own countenance by giving into his weaker nature of his ego and fantasies

What kind, if one at all, is a man like that? Yes a soft one, a softlad

Yeah he doesn't deserve ya, and the sooner you put this behind you the better, because this one does not have the pair to really love and be accountable to love either.

You as many others here will rise above and transcend this blip on the radar of a great life

He will still be justifying his betrayal for years to come, the poor thing
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/12 08:27 PM
Thanks for the hugs peeps. You know I carry you all around in my pocket for strength.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
But I would like to think we understand one thing as men, and that is honor

He is the loser, The man is never supposed to be the quitter, or lie to manipulate female emotions, or soil his own countenance by giving into his weaker nature of his ego and fantasies

What kind, if one at all, is a man like that? Yes a soft one, a softlad

Yeah he doesn't deserve ya, and the sooner you put this behind you the better, because this one does not have the pair to really love and be accountable to love either.

You as many others here will rise above and transcend this blip on the radar of a great life

He will still be justifying his betrayal for years to come, the poor thing

I love this!
Eat my own eyeball, hilarious but I get it

Yeah hiking is awesome as it is probably the best exercise, walking.

Getting to the time when you can get a walking buddy? Don't care what sex just as long as they have two brain cells to rub together.

You can push each other as your confidence and resilience grows

God bless Indie
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/13/12 08:45 PM
I'm hiking with my girls tomorrow.

My friend who had a Dday with her fiance same weekend as my Dday. She's now doing Dr H's 'date at least 30 people' and the five tests of compatibility.

The other friend is the one who complemented my decision not to date.

Were doing Ben Nevis is August and have all gotten out of shape.

The betrayed fiance has hurt her ankle and the other friend will be fasting in August (she's muslim) so its up to me to be the fit one, god help us.
Who's Ben Nevis?
It doesn't matter, eat the meat of it and spit out the bones

So friend is Muslim? She must have a handle then on fasting and praying being also a great source of inner strength

I tend to think it's us humans that label God anyway, cuz we are afraid we might miss Him, or we might not respect Him in some way.


Chances are we will miss him at some point in time, but he allways seems to show up when we need Him. He defies Mans packaging by Mans law in all of mans religions.

"Man looks upon the exterior, and God looks upon the heart", has been my saying for a long time now.

I brought this up because I was reading a book by someone interested in
uniting Gods people and dispelling the negativity within religious belief systems since 9-11

So much was used to attack ppl from other cultures that really boiled down to fear tactics and control... Well you know the drill

Fear is always present and protects us from straying to far away from Gods care for us, no matter what name he is called by
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/12 01:05 AM
I know how that is. I took some time to look up beliefs of different religions and found that...the extremists are the issue.

Muslims, on the whole, are a nice bunch of people.

Mormons, on the whole, are also nice.

It's the extremists that make it awful for everyone else.
Ditto Karma
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/12 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Just got an email from solicitor.

Date for my Decree Nisi is July 25. I can apply for the Decree Absolute just six weeks later and I'll be divorced, as long as financial stuff doesn't hold it up.

It's real. Got all weird and shaky, but ultimately, I'm relieved an end is in sight.
hug to you Indie.

Your future is bright.

Glad you have some Plan B treats for the weekend.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/12 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
But I would like to think we understand one thing as men, and that is honor

He is the loser, The man is never supposed to be the quitter, or lie to manipulate female emotions, or soil his own countenance by giving into his weaker nature of his ego and fantasies

What kind, if one at all, is a man like that? Yes a soft one, a softlad

Yeah he doesn't deserve ya, and the sooner you put this behind you the better, because this one does not have the pair to really love and be accountable to love either.

You as many others here will rise above and transcend this blip on the radar of a great life

He will still be justifying his betrayal for years to come, the poor thing

I love this!
X 2, thanks CP!

Indie, I am envious of your tackling Ben Nevis! Hats off to you and your friends!!!

I miss the UK countryside and greenbelt trails. I have such happy memories of tackling Welsh and Peak District walks.

And finishing the day with a hearty pub meal to more than make up for the calories burnt. blush
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/12 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
My friend who had a Dday with her fiance same weekend as my Dday. She's now doing Dr H's 'date at least 30 people' and the five tests of compatibility.
Where is this from indie?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/12 10:00 AM
Here Car.
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
While my basic concepts would help you resolve your conflicts if you were to follow them, I am not sure that you're ready to make a decision now that would affect the rest of your life. My standard advice to singles is to date at least 30 people before marriage. Strange advice to some, because, like you, they may have already chosen the one they wanted to marry. But the reason I give that advice is so they come to understand what they need most in an opposite sex relationship. The ones that they find most attractive are those who meet some of their most important emotional needs.
Choosing the right one to Marry


Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/12 10:32 AM
Thanks BH. VERY interesting.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/12 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by Caracal
Thanks BH. VERY interesting.
I know, right?
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/12 11:57 AM
hug to you Indie. Your posts remind us that this is a marathon not a sprint. You should be proud of what you have achieved so far, regardless of your final destination you have laid the foundations for a happy successful life.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/12 01:11 PM
Peeps, does anyone know a nice bible phrase for a Christening card? My fiance friend is going to be a godmother and she's totally stuck.
Posted By: GJM Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/14/12 02:58 PM
"Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. (Exodus 20:12 NIV)

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/15/12 11:47 AM
Perfect!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/15/12 10:39 PM
Flights for India booked, soooo exciting!

We hiked up a steep hill, but we were so long in the travel agents we were only able to do an hour and a half job. Ben Nevis is seven hours! It's a month away today.

I am so out of shape. I went on to my parents wii fit today, was doing jack knives and yoga positions I used to do with ease - got nowhere. At least I still rock the hula hoop.

I think exercise is the key, my energy is back. Sleeping is back.I have put on too much weight since losing my wii zumba.

I've had a few not so nice flashbacks. I remembered that softlad and OW stepped outside just after midnight on NY Eve. I wonder why. I assumed at the time she was upset at being widowed on NY Eve.

I also remembered one time I didn't know where he was, called him and he said he was in the pub. Then I heard the voice of OWs little daughter in the background and I asked why he was lying to me. Still no clue there was an A!!

He was lying in front of children!!

He explained that OW had called on him as the kids were driving her nuts. And that the stress of not being very good with them had caused him to answer me wrong.

And I still didn't get it for months!!!

What was really good is that the memories came momentarily but didn't really affect me. They just struck me as slightly disgusting and I shook it off.

And the rain has stopped! Two days fair weather. Today is St Swithins Day and legend has it that if it rains on St Swithins Day it will rain 40 days and 40 nights. If it is fine, there will be fine weather to come.

Its often right. By mid July the jet stream that dictates the British summer weather is in place. Not that I really understand what any of that means.

Let's hope St Swithins Day legend starters knew what they were talking about. I can't take any more!
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/15/12 11:28 PM
Flashbacks to gaslighting sucks bigtime.
Great verse, and BTWIt works too
Note it says honor, and that is not always mean obey.

Having been brought up with strict baptist ideals, this was a little tough for me, because my father was a little unbalanced when I was growing up. Thank God the rest of the family knew it

Doing what your told was always what o did to please my Dad, but it was hard just the same, because wearing flood pants to school, and modeling myself after a man who never took showers, cause he didn't want to waste water...And someone who had no life except to work 24-7....

Well that and keeping my grades up, and wanting to please him. let's just say it was impossible

But honor and respect he still had, and still has, as when I look at a task to be done, I know hard work and perseverance will triumph. With him there was no excuse, and I thank him for that

The apple doesnt fall far from the tree, but it is a different tree that grows. Without the first tree there is nothing

Still want to honor my father in everything I do. That will be with me always and makes me who I am, and God help me if I ever lose that

But obey? Sorry Dad I had to take showers, and have freinds, and not be paranoid about money, and did not make myself slave to the almighty dollar. I have your support to thank for that also, don't think I forgot that for one second
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/16/12 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Flights for India booked, soooo exciting!
Ooooh, very exciting. Where in India? I have always wanted to go, please post some pics when you get back. When is the trip booked for?

Wow, sorry for the inquisition, it has been top of my list for a while.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
I've had a few not so nice flashbacks. I remembered that softlad and OW stepped outside just after midnight on NY Eve. I wonder why. I assumed at the time she was upset at being widowed on NY Eve.

I also remembered one time I didn't know where he was, called him and he said he was in the pub. Then I heard the voice of OWs little daughter in the background and I asked why he was lying to me. Still no clue there was an A!!

He was lying in front of children!!

He explained that OW had called on him as the kids were driving her nuts. And that the stress of not being very good with them had caused him to answer me wrong.

And I still didn't get it for months!!!

What was really good is that the memories came momentarily but didn't really affect me. They just struck me as slightly disgusting and I shook it off.
Same thing. My flashbacks are more often about the lies he told. His sister even sat him down for "the talk" and asked about an A. He said "wouldn't that be easier if it was just that". Gaslighting us all. GRRRRR!

I look back on the swagger and ego with repulsion. His actions don't hurt as much anymore, however the actions of people I thought of as family and friends do. I imagine this will get less with time as well, as I surround myself with people who have shown support rather than enabling.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/16/12 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by Caracal
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Flights for India booked, soooo exciting!
Ooooh, very exciting. Where in India? I have always wanted to go, please post some pics when you get back. When is the trip booked for?

Wow, sorry for the inquisition, it has been top of my list for a while.


The golden triangle for ten days; Delhi, Agra (Taj Mahal) Jaipur and then four days or so at the beach, Kerala or Goa. Looking at the pictures made me HUNGRY for travel. I've already written my packing list, and bought some lightweight clothes that will be useful cover ups. If you have any traveller tips I'm all ears!

Originally Posted by Caracal
I look back on the swagger and ego with repulsion. His actions don't hurt as much anymore, however the actions of people I thought of as family and friends do. I imagine this will get less with time as well, as I surround myself with people who have shown support rather than enabling.


I've been thinking more and more about how I would respond to a recovery offer. I want to be sure I'm 'done' before I divorce.

I am a bit amazed about how nonplussed I am. I would have thought by now that I would have one moment of love or longing or nostalgia of late, but no not one.

I do know that I have a 15 year old lovebank with his name on it. I know that he could reignite it with the proper actions. But its all very hard to imagine.

Even if he were on board with a full tilt recovery, I sort of see myself as more shrugging my shoulders and saying: "Took you long enough. No matter what you do, there are better men out there". He'd have to really work my top EN of O&H. And he's always been uncomfortable with true honesty. In fact his moving away and hiding from the truth is probably responsible for my frozen solid lovebank. It all seems like very much a lost cause and we need to get this D, ASAP.

I know that a dark Plan B is responsible for this aloofness and I am grateful.
Posted By: kerala Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/16/12 11:30 AM
Glad you are going to the south. It always amazes me that people skip it. It's the best part of the country....but then I'm biased.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/16/12 12:02 PM
Yes I've been wondering how you came by your name? smile Do you have any tips for me?
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/16/12 12:56 PM
Indie,

Do you think one of the sunlight lamps would help your mood?

Glad to hear you're doing good, most of the time.

Steph
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/16/12 05:01 PM
forewarning......India is a trigger for me (the OW in my case is from the southern Tamil area)....but.....I will refuse to let one person ruin a place with culture and many good people for me. K?

Can't wait to hear about your trip once you have been!
Sorry for the side trip down CPs memorylane, I cut it off before I could fully splain all of my thoughts, but it really would need it's own thread anyway.. Lol

Your last statement, about thanking " A dark plan B for your aloofness", is a testimony to it's value to anyone who realizes they have sacrificed thier life in vain.

But yet the finishing observation we must all share, is our heart and intentions during it all, that are held up by something higher than plans and statistics, yes even mans best efforts at rising above, and our sacrifices

Have a wonderful vacation Indie wink
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/17/12 01:52 AM
Indiegirl, would you mind checking on movingonward's thread? She needs to get into Plan B but is having housing issues.

Thanks
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/19/12 10:42 AM
Sure.


Anyone know which book is the best gift for an engaged couple? Not sure whether it should by HNHN or FILSIL. I have only read SAA and Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. HNHN has the sub title 'How to Build an Affair Proof Marriage' A concept I am sure both of them, complete strangers to MB, would find ridiculous and off putting.

However maybe they just need to get over it! LOL, I've become so preachy.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/19/12 11:18 AM
I would go FILSIL for engagement. Introduce them to Dr H, without confrontation.

And move up a notch for the wedding.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/19/12 11:36 AM
There is actually a book fro engaged couples.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6012_iprom.html
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/19/12 01:50 PM
I know a couple getting married in a few weeks and I am planning to get them "The Four Gifts of Love" by Dr Harley. It seemed to cover a lot. It's not available on here anymore but I found it elsewhere.

~RQ
Yes forewarned is forearmed

It is easy to expect protection from your fiancļæ½, and it is right to not rock the boat, but to deny that there are influences out there wishing to attack us is just foolish

If they are truly mature enough to enter into marriage, arm them with the tools they will need
Posted By: kerala Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/20/12 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Yes I've been wondering how you came by your name? smile Do you have any tips for me?

My family is from there, so it's obviously a bit of a different experience for me than most.

That said, you MUST do a tour of the Kerala backwaters on a houseboat. You can go for 1 or more nights. Absolutely stunning. I went on a very small boat - just hubby and me, but there are larger ones. The captain was also the chef, and a very good one too!

The cape at the southern tip of India is pretty incredible.

Old Fort Cochin is a very interesting city. It has a Jewish quarter that is remarkable.

Goa is great too, of course, but I haven't spent much time there. Kerala is a bit less touristy, so it all depends what you're looking for.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/20/12 01:03 PM
I started to have a few new feelings of 'what if?' about the D today. I never have before - from start to finish I had my mind made up that I would have to see repentance within the first six months of Plan B, or I wasnļæ½t too interested in recovery. That position never really wavered. The six month mark is when I became more interested in proceeding full steam ahead on the D.

I KNOW I will recover
I KNOW I can create a great marriage with someone else
I KNOW he doesnļæ½t particularly offer anything special apart from history.
I KNOW he had a history of lying, if not infidelity, before the A.
We donļæ½t have a family. What would I be trying to save?

But I just had a bit of a 'what if' moment today. What if he reaches that point, that point of repentance Waywards sometimes reach?

Though I never indulge any talk of 'I' or 'my pain' from Waywards here who've hit rock bottom, I think a wayward's pain at that point is very real. There is no greater pain than knowing you have done something awful and lost something great.

I donļæ½t think he has anything particularly special to offer me. I donļæ½t think there is any point in hanging around..

But the idea of him being broken with remorse and alone.. It affects me. It just does.

I had to get some privacy at work when the vision came into my head. I saw his face, his expression. It was very upsetting.

The crazy thing is, I donļæ½t miss him, or feel much love for him at all. I wasnļæ½t crying for myself. I was crying for HIM!

How nutso is that? I suppose after so long together though, I can afford a little sorrow at the idea of his demise. It's a farewell weep. Probably because the D is so soon and I feel my mind is made up. These feelings of 'potential' sorrow for him arenļæ½t enough to make me do anything differently. I have chosen my path, not just for survival but for happiness.

But I suppose that's why I want a permanent Plan B. So I won't have to see his consequences when he earns them.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/20/12 02:37 PM
It isn't nutso and you are normal.

He isn't allllllll bad. (lol)
Nah Indie, that's normal, and feeling pain is normal, even when it is for Him, about him, and all that he will experience for consequences.

I remember a nurse in the hospital telling me about how when people are addicted, either to drugs from choice, or because of drugs taken due to sickness,(In my case my wife had both cases), how the ones who suffer are the ones who feel the pain.

The drugged up people don't feel anything, by choice or by design of the medication, which of course is also by choice, but taken with the object being that they understand the consequences.

You know where I am going with this, it is about our choices, and the strong know the consequences, and the brave go on anyways while they still are scared. That's the real definition of courage.

Yeah that's why it is good that you don't want to be there when he finally gets it, even though you understand it, he will have to understand it alone.

Still feeling for him? That's normal as reading said.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 12:05 AM
This seems like a good day for a Plan B update, it would have been our 11th wedding anniversary today.

Its snuck up on me. I glanced at the date a few times on the calender earlier in the year. Then I forgot about it. Then I remembered this afternoon.

I'm pretty glad Friday has rolled around. That seems to be the extent of my feeling about the day. Which would sound super weird to an earlier Plan B me.

Particularly since the divorce Decree Nisi was rubber stamped this week. This means I can finalise in six weeks.

I'm EXCITED. About my new life. Though I know he could take another year to hit his rock bottom, and I feel sorry for him, I'm too busy being excited for me.

Was having dinner with friends last night and one wanted help with deciding on some of her online matches. It was fun helping her date. It was fun realising there are nice men out there and good times to be had.

Work has gotten a lot of free time off me this week. But for once I don't care. Its a story that really affects peoples' lives, will be really helped toward a solution by publicity and I get to name and shame nasty, greedy people.

Still the job is not usually rewarding and I need a better work life balance. I've just applied for a great job. Its a lot like many of the others I've applied for and not gotten. But your luck has to change sometime, right?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 01:24 AM
As always love your updates.

Thanks for sharing smile
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 09:21 AM
I think it is your determination that will pay off in the end Indie... but still, good luck on the job!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 10:21 AM
So, so very aggravated!

Guess who has finally figured out that he is blocked and so has changed his email address and emailed me at work. I did screw up and read it. Should have deleted it unread.

Hi Indie,

Just a quick one as you may not even read regardless.

Just wanted to say I'm sending my thought's today and I hope you're well.

Softlad.


WTF!!

Does he really think that's the level of effort that will get a response from me? Oooh you changed your email. I bet that took you all night and a lot of soul searching.

What a pleb.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 10:30 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Just a quick one as you may not even read regardless.


Note how he cant write two pars without gaslighting me.

It's just a quick one, i.e. there WOULD be more, if it wasn't for ME. My behaviour in notdictates how eloquent he is and his behaviour apparently.

He can't be bothered putting in much effort in case I don't read it.

If only I was more reasonable and read his messages! Then I would hear all the wisdom he can't be bothered to share right now.....
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 11:37 AM
Can you ask your employer to change your email addy? Even if it is posted online somewhere for him to find, at least he would have to work to find it.

hug

Ya know what's funny? It seems that every time I update my thread, my WH does something, or something happens that is worth mentioning. Now, I see it's not just me. smile

Fingers crossed for that new job.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 12:18 PM
I had changed it Scotty! About six months ago they changed all our email addresses so the main part of reporters' addresses all matched each other. So he has done the homework to check that out too.

If he put HALF the effort into healing me that he puts into hurting me, and trying to get around my rules, we would be half way to recovered by now.

I was thinking it was weird too, that he would do this just after I updated, but it isnt really.

I updated because of the day - because the day is significant, even if much less so than I would have thought.

The day weakened me, because it made me more curious to see what he would have to say on this day. I've deleted stuff unread in the past without it being a problem.

He deliberately targeted me on a day he knew I might be slightly weaker.

And I allowed it. I am going to be so much more strict in future about deleting unread. NEVER GIVE THE ENEMY AN INCH!

He sucks.
Sorry he put you through that, indie, but you've handled it all as best you could.

Glad you're working on an important story, I'm sure it feels wonderful to have such a chance to make a difference in the world! I know for me, through all this craziness, being successful at work has given me an outlet that I can put in effort and achieve results equal to my effort. If only relationships were the same way!!

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 12:47 PM
Well, you did almost the best you could(since you still read it). Continue on, and learn from your mistake.

hug
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I had changed it Scotty! About six months ago they changed all our email addresses so the main part of reporters' addresses all matched each other. So he has done the homework to check that out too.

If he put HALF the effort into healing me that he puts into hurting me, and trying to get around my rules, we would be half way to recovered by now.

I was thinking it was weird too, that he would do this just after I updated, but it isnt really.

I updated because of the day - because the day is significant, even if much less so than I would have thought.

The day weakened me, because it made me more curious to see what he would have to say on this day. I've deleted stuff unread in the past without it being a problem.

He deliberately targeted me on a day he knew I might be slightly weaker.

And I allowed it. I am going to be so much more strict in future about deleting unread. NEVER GIVE THE ENEMY AN INCH!

He sucks.

I find your analogy of him, If he put HALF the effort into healing me that he puts into hurting me, and trying to get around my rules, we would be half way to recovered by now. to be the hardest part to let go in Plan B.

My xWH has gone to great lengths to avoid all responsibility, and I thought for the longest time, man if he can put this much energy in fighting me in court, wow how healed we could be if he put that same amount in recovering our marriage.

In May this year I finally put those thoughts out of my mind. My great friend and I made a box for xWH in May.

We put him in the "rebellious 16 year old teen boy box "...this box is fun because each time I hear from my friends about how their teen boy is behaving I can check it against my xWH. Teen boys seem to be a big trigger for me because the behavior is so identical. If I have a thought about xWH or something comes up from court I can go to this box where I have this stuff documented and say, "Yup, he is a match." Then I give myself the reassurance xWH is still very wayward, still very immature, still very emotionally wacked out, and by all accounts not a grown man.

Then my box gets put away and I can forget about xWH until he does something hurtful, stupid, or just down right evil. I am in the heart of court again with him, and hopefully by December it will be over. Then I plan to burn the box and never have to think about this rebellious boy again.

He can take his energy used to destroy me and our kids and I guess lump it onto some idiot woman who thinks she is getting a prize.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 02:35 PM
I am sorry you were exposed to emotional turmoil at his forcing email contact.

I have to LOL though. He sure wants two women. Even if one is a woman he has to tag via email manipulation to say "I am here....remember?"

Sheesh.

Be strong plan B-er.
Posted By: markos Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 02:50 PM
Can you get your work email address changed?

If you tell people what is happening, can you get your work email address changed? I'm presuming if you had somebody stalking you and had a restraining order, they would change it; they should see this as the same.

He can't email you if he doesn't know your email address!
Posted By: markos Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Just a quick one as you may not even read regardless.


Note how he cant write two pars without gaslighting me.

It's just a quick one, i.e. there WOULD be more, if it wasn't for ME. My behaviour in notdictates how eloquent he is and his behaviour apparently.

He can't be bothered putting in much effort in case I don't read it.

If only I was more reasonable and read his messages! Then I would hear all the wisdom he can't be bothered to share right now.....

You've certainly become good at identifying this crap!
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Guess who has finally figured out that he is blocked and so has changed his email address and emailed me at work.

Indie. It is crazy how waywards never seem to give up trying to prove to themselves that they are really a "nice and thoughtful" wayward.

lol
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Can you get your work email address changed?

If you tell people what is happening, can you get your work email address changed? I'm presuming if you had somebody stalking you and had a restraining order, they would change it; they should see this as the same.

He can't email you if he doesn't know your email address!


I'm a reporter, markos and my email address goes into the newspaper every day urging people to contact me with news.

Reporters dont change their addresses when stalked. In fact if you haven't had a death threat you aren't considered a real reporter!

I am CONSTANTLY being stalked by racists, members of fringe organisations, criminals with stuff to hide etc...

Politicians of course!

We can block addresses and the police are pretty good at handling troublemakers who stand out, but that's about it. My thinking cap is on though.

This new email he's created has been blocked too. I can get my IM to have a word if he keeps it up and I will tell his family about it too. For now though I just dont want to show any response at all. Might operate a 'three strikes and you're out' rule.
Posted By: markos Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Guess who has finally figured out that he is blocked and so has changed his email address and emailed me at work.

Indie. It is crazy how waywards never seem to give up trying to prove to themselves that they are really a "nice and thoughtful" wayward.

lol

I still get a birthday card from my "Plan B"'ed wayward mother, every year. Sometimes it includes not-sane irrational references to my childhood, including taking credit for things my father did for me as a boy, reminiscing about them as if she did them.

She quit including checks about ten years ago, probably because I was never cashing them.
Posted By: markos Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by markos
Can you get your work email address changed?

If you tell people what is happening, can you get your work email address changed? I'm presuming if you had somebody stalking you and had a restraining order, they would change it; they should see this as the same.

He can't email you if he doesn't know your email address!


I'm a reporter, markos and my email address goes into the newspaper every day urging people to contact me with news.

Reporters dont change their addresses when stalked. In fact if you haven't had a death threat you aren't considered a real reporter!

I am CONSTANTLY being stalked by racists, members of fringe organisations, criminals with stuff to hide etc...

Politicians of course!

We can block addresses and the police are pretty good at handling troublemakers who stand out, but that's about it. My thinking cap is on though.

This new email he's created has been blocked too. I can get my IM to have a word if he keeps it up and I will tell his family about it too. For now though I just dont want to show any response at all. Might operate a 'three strikes and you're out' rule.

Have you considered changing your name?

Just brainstorming. smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Have you considered changing your name?

Just brainstorming. smile


Ha, you laugh, but I had the exact same thought! I like to do a wide sweep when I brainstorm so as to be sure I am not missing anything.

I'm taking my maiden name again soon. After the D.

It costs money to change your name legally before a D. So I wasn't going to. And it loses you a tonne of reporters contacts because people dont know who you are any more. Not the close contacts but the fringey ones who are sometimes more important. There are reporters who dont change it to get married!

Now, if I get this job though, it may be worth doing.

It's not a newspaper job but a press office job working for a nearby police force

Press Officers' work contact details aren't publicised online. There's simply no need as the public dont speak to them. The reporters who contact them just have them saved in their address books.

Now he could easily get to hear about my new job (if I get it. Pre-hatched chickens anyone?)

If he did, he could find the press office general number and ask to speak to me. But if he asked to speak to Indie Softlad, as opposed to Indie Maidenname, he'd get nowhere. I could even warn my coworkers about such a call.

But then the rumour mill would prob also pass on my new name.

Unless I did a ruthless sweep of FB, getting rid of all and any potential spies.

And threatened everyone else not to reveal it.

Buuuuuuuuuut. It prob wont work.

Its an idea to change my name at the start of a new job just for my own sake though.

I love brainstorming!
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 09:34 PM
oh indie, i'm sorry to hear about softlad's contact, and on *that* day! (hmm, i wonder how much trouble there is in a-land? dollars to doughnuts you-know-who doesn't know).

but look at you! not too affected, going strong, keen about an amazing trip, new job maybe on the horizon! did you happen to buy some red heels recently? wink your PB is so strong and mighty, and gives others a hope they don't think they have ATM that things WILL get better.

hug
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/03/12 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by Letty
did you happen to buy some red heels recently?


Why yes I did! Such good instincts you have for guessing a person's style...

In fact I was telling some friends the other day they are just perfect to clash with an electric blue dress of mine.

Supergirl colours.

I'm having lunch in Manchester with some friends tomorrow, so that's my outfit sorted!
Posted By: Prisca Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/04/12 01:28 AM
Quote
Ha, you laugh, but I had the exact same thought! I like to do a wide sweep when I brainstorm so as to be sure I am not missing anything.
In that spirit, consider changing your last name to something other than your maiden name, something he would have a hard time thinking of. Make it THAT much harder for him to get to you smile
Posted By: Prisca Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/04/12 01:29 AM
Quote
In fact I was telling some friends the other day they are just perfect to clash with an electric blue dress of mine.

I like smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/04/12 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Ha, you laugh, but I had the exact same thought! I like to do a wide sweep when I brainstorm so as to be sure I am not missing anything.
In that spirit, consider changing your last name to something other than your maiden name, something he would have a hard time thinking of. Make it THAT much harder for him to get to you smile


Bardot? Bacall? Loren?

Love it!

Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
In fact I was telling some friends the other day they are just perfect to clash with an electric blue dress of mine.

I like smile


kiss
Ah Indie caught up on your thread and very interesting and you sound good

What a problem having to deal with the name change as a reporter, and softlad really doesnt know which way is up anymore huh?

Sorry but serves him right after he let his ego fantasies rule his common sense.

Can't say he wasn't warned, maybe he is too thickheaded.

But your not and it's not gonna effect your life and for that I am glad
Posted By: ak1 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/05/12 03:32 AM
I do sysadmin work for a living and know a lot about email, and have a thought for you.

Some email programs let you define an auto-reply message using a template like this:

http://tbirdhowto.wordpress.com/category/auto-reply/

I would create a template that looks like this:

========================================================
Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

<Your email>

Technical details of permanent failure:

Your message was rejected because the recipient has blocked your email address

550: Unable to deliver to <email address>
========================================================

Once you have the template, create a filter that matches his email then auto-replies with the template.

If he sends you an email from an unknown address, simply add that address to the filter and re-run your filters.

The idea is that he will always get a bounce message back and think that it's not possible to email you. This will probably cause him to give up because he will think that you never got it.

Might help with other situations as well.

ak

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/05/12 10:02 AM
Brilliant tip!
Yeah if you could use this it probably would help, but what about the unverified tips a reporter receives from anonymous sources?
You know like deep throat in All the Presidents Men?
It will work great for known addys though
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/06/12 08:22 PM
Oh it will be very useful for a number of blocked email addresses I have.

As for any unknown email addresses from Softlad, I think I have toughened up my defences there enough to be able to delete unread.

Having later on seen his tactic in attacking me on a special day, I am forewarned on that score (It's his birthday next week) and really annoyed I fell for it.

I have been WELL punished in reading that email with a sleepless night last night. I am NO good without my sleep.

If I had deleted it, I would have just assumed it was a financial thing he was too stubborn to use the IM for.

But having read the cake eating attempt, I now know full well he's having a hard time because of the time of year, and the lack of the type of cake I provide best.

OW (if still around) is not affectionate, she's fun on one level, but very hard edged. WHs family (though I like many of them) are not either. At this time of year, our anniversary and his birthday, nobody makes a fuss of him like I do.

It's made me realise how much he may be straining at the bit and my mind ran away with me last night. I kept thinking how I would respond to a reconcilliation offer from him.

I dont know what he would be good for, so I prob wouldnt take him back no matter what.

Of course, I know he isnt in a genuine repentant place, because he went around the IM, and my primary response is anger at being taken for a fool.

But just delete unread! Even on a weak day. Plan Bers PLEASE - your curiosity is ALWAYS dangerous.

A wayward who cant get past the IM is saying nothing more than'Hi fog, fog fog, bye babble'

It's just not worth the loss of sleep.
Amen to that Indie

And to the lurkers reading this, who are suffering because they feel they have to with an adulterous mate, stop fooling yourself

Your not that tough either, believe me I am pretty tough physically, but my heart? My spouse? My other half? There I am a marshmallow

Wouldn't have it any other way
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/09/12 09:22 AM

So, an update

Last night I went hillwalking after work. It was a short but steep walk and it slayed me. I am afraid I am going to embarrass myself on Ben Nevis! (And it's the weekend after next, yikes, I really must get fitter). But I think I have neglected exercise in Plan B and really underestimated its importance. It keeps your body and mind strong and fuels you for all the life changing things you have to do. Tonight I do yogalates.

So I made good time uphill anyway. Even if I was gasping for breath. A horse rider came by and the horse was struggling, which made me feel better. When I mentioned this to the rider she said: "She's a bit unfit". Cheers, love. The views were stunning all the way along. When I got to the top, there was tower that is an old weather station, so I took the stairs up to the roof. And collapsed.

The moors and hills are part of my news patch and I havenļæ½t really explored them. There was a stream running right the way through that turns into a steep waterfall in places. I MUST get out more. It was a glorious evening (for a change) too. If the weather keeps up, I might go foraging at the weekend for some free berries. The garden is full of raspberries, so the woods must be too.

The divorce could be final in as little six weeks. That's IF Softlad behaves, and let's face it that is quite a big if. My solicitor emailed me saying that we need to divide assets in those six weeks and mediation would save me a lot of money. Approaches to do mediation fell flat as Softlad did not respond. But proof that we approached him and he refused will help us in court. I SUPPOSE he could do the right thing and agree to split things fairly anyway.. but I don't believe in fairy tales. I just want this done, now.

Oh and the job I went for turned me down without selecting me for interview!! I know there're a lot of people going for the same jobs these days, but I am well qualified for it and more than experienced enough. I am going to ask them what's going on, because if an application I took weeks to fill out and proof read four times isn't up to standard, I need to know what is.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/18/12 10:44 PM
Well I went up Ben Nevis today. My first ever serious hillwalk is the largest mountain in the UK!

Its bloody high. And its also quite windy and rainy in Scotland.

I may never have the full use of my ankles or my right hip ever again. They are very annoyed with me. But it was totally worth it!

The past year has been like charging up a mountain. I thought today would be a metaphor for my Plan B, and it has been! When I was really struggling in steep, rocky places, I would just think 'Have I endured worse pain?' And since I had, I knew I could do it.

Plan Bers can do anything. I know its not the largest peak in the world, but it was a big step for me and it was done (collectively) 15 mins under the seven hour average. I was even at the front of the gang for a bit.

Like the princess of swords, charging aloft the mountain path with weapon held high. If the Princess of Swords had a dodgy hip and a backpack.

If I hadn't been betrayed, or rather if the vets hadn't clued me in to it, there would be so many experiences I would never have had.

Thank you lovelies! Thank you Marriagebuilders!
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/18/12 11:16 PM
wow, indie, that's fantastic! well done. and you've turned a metaphor into a literal transformation. take note, those of you who are waffling over plan b.

Originally Posted by indie
A horse rider came by and the horse was struggling, which made me feel better. When I mentioned this to the rider she said: "She's a bit unfit". Cheers, love.

when i gallop my horse uphill, in my mind i can hear her saying (gasping?) "you're too heavy, you're too heavy, you're too heavy." perhaps that lady's horse was thinking the same thing!
Triumphant indie. Grats
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/19/12 04:37 PM
Good for you, Indie!

You continue to be a source of strength around here that many people need, even in your struggles. When I think of how great you've done in Plan B, I can only imagine what shell of a person you would be if you hadn't been so strong for so long. We all make mistakes in recovery - whether personal or recovery - but you manage to get right back on the horse. Well, except in your case - it's getting off the horse - and walking! LOL

smile
Oh yeah, Indie understood her Husband behavior rather quickly. The likeness of being drugged and being carried away by aliens, even the relation to addiction and those behaviors as like those of an addict.

That's why Plan B works so good, it brings things back to reality.

We might not like it but we are alone in life even when we are with someone else
Being married is supposed to add to us, not take away, so many get mixed up in the changes we make for a healthy marriage relationship by looking at them as sacrifices, when they were made to add to our lives.

Marriage is definatly a challenge Indie was acting as a star, and continues to do so
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/20/12 08:06 PM
Thanks everyone! Words of encouragement are very nice when your legs ache so you can't walk upstairs right, lol!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/23/12 11:51 AM
So my solicitor is wanting to press on with D paperwork as it could be finalised in weeks if SL just gives us financial docs.

He was asked 2 weeks ago. No response.

She wants me to decide if I should give him more time or take him to court. That could cost five thousand pound. The divorce has already cost me two thousand I didn't have.

I'm toying with the idea of either an IM message or breaking my Plan B for a meeting. I'm not trying to save my M any more and I'm willing to endure the pain of a meeting to play my hand.

I realise he is prob trying to break my Plan B and I would be giving in.

But I think I can shame him into doing the necessary. He ran away in shame and wouldn't like everyone to hear about his financial secrecy causing me hardship. I have the support of many of his family members.

Thoughts?
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/23/12 01:02 PM


I honestly can't say what you should do. I am thinking probably do an IM message but I just am not sure.

You are in a quandry for sure.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/23/12 01:26 PM
This is my Art of War plan, so far.

I will have my IM send him a message stipulating that I am willing to take him to court to get a speedy divorce in spite of how costly this avenue will be for us both. I will say I have the financial backing of my parents and will do whatever it takes to get a speedy divorce. (This is not really true, but appear strong when weak and all that) If he wishes to avoid paying court costs which could run as high as ļæ½5000, he will need to let the lawyers have all financial documentation very soon.

If he tells the IM he needs to speak with me, (I'm sure this is his gameplan) she will say I dont need to speak with him, the options are either he gives up the documents or faces a costly battle in court. However I may be willing to speak with him after the documents are provided in order to come to an amicable agreement. (Note the word 'may').

I dunno.

Tryng to call my solictor for in-person advice as she goes away for a week today.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/23/12 01:54 PM
So I managed to speak to her. She said it's possible it's just down to delays in his solicitor's office due to the school holidays and people being off work.

However after two weeks she would have expected at least a response from them saying they are working on it or something and she can't get anything from them. This usually suggests the other spouse is being uncooperative.

She said that as I know him best I may have some firm ideas as to what was going on or an inclination to either proceed or wait, based on what I know of him. I have no idea what he is thinking these days though.

she said we could give them another 14 days, in which time she would send out a reminder letter stressing the urgency of the situation. She said she is very conscious that time is money and she doesnt want this dragging out.

I mentioned that I may get in touch with him myself and she said that may be a good idea. If I was to stress that it is cheaper for him if he gets on board, she says she has seen that work.
Kinda would like the leagal beagles on this site to advise, but I stand firm in my conviction that you should not ever have to talk to him in person to get this straigened out legally.
He has his emotional support Via his AP, and all of the cronies that help him justify it
The poor Softlad, boohoo
Yeah if he wants mercy, he should find it somewhere else
Of course I advise not to contact him directly, at least when he is still involved romantically with his AP
He holds all of the emotional trump cards and he has boughten into the new world he has created.
Yup he is a softlad lead by his ego

It's up to you but don't be surprised that it might set you back in recovery, and really make you upset even if you deal with him as an adult.

Still waiting for the vets to respond

Take good care of yourself Indie
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/23/12 10:13 PM
Hi Indiegirl, I just got caught up on your thread. I didn't read every word, but enough to say, wow, what a tumultuous year you've had! I have a question about one of your posts, but don't want to sidetrack your thread, so I'll post it on the thread of mine you've been so gracious to respond to.

Just to confirm what ConstantProcess wrote, I too agree that you shouldn't contact your ex, for exactly the reason he wrote, it would probably set your recovery back. Yes it may be cheaper, but from experience with my own divorce, the price of emotional sanity is, well, priceless!

I also agree with your solicitor's assessment that a non-response after 2 weeks indicates your ex is being uncooperative. I'd let her handle the situation and stay out of it as much as I could. (Reading this part of your story brings back unpleasant memories of my own divorce proceedings... easily the worst thing that has ever happened to me.)

I'm now up-to-date and will try to follow along. Good luck to you!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/23/12 10:27 PM
Thanks KL. I'm feeling a little bit calmer and more willing to keep out of it this evening. Waywards. Its what you should expect, really.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/23/12 10:49 PM
indie, I'm going to weigh in to tell you to NOT break Plan B. As long as you have another way to get your point to WH, take the other way.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/23/12 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
indie, I'm going to weigh in to tell you to NOT break Plan B. As long as you have another way to get your point to WH, take the other way.

Didn't want to weigh in, but this is exactly what I was thinking. Why fall into what he wants you to do? THis is YOUR plan, and you're doing it YOUR way.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Thanks KL. I'm feeling a little bit calmer and more willing to keep out of it this evening. Waywards. Its what you should expect, really.
Yeah it's tempting, you are over it, got a new set of armor to protect you from the line of bull, need to get on with your life, got some choice words for them too, if they dare go there.

But they are still in love with thier fantasy, really themselves, and it is a waste of your valuable and precious time

Now if they were your child... But thier not, so don't even go there.

You will likely set yourself up for more heartache. Been there and done that, there is no excuse

You have to be the strong one, while the selfish ruin what could have been, if they hadn't fallen for less than the truth. You are the strong one

Good job Indie
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/24/12 01:42 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
indie, I'm going to weigh in to tell you to NOT break Plan B. As long as you have another way to get your point to WH, take the other way.

Didn't want to weigh in, but this is exactly what I was thinking. Why fall into what he wants you to do? THis is YOUR plan, and you're doing it YOUR way.
X3
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/24/12 09:12 PM
It's quite funny being told to do things my way, when usually in life I'm being told not to be so stubborn about doing things my way!

Whatever happens, I'm taking my life back. And I'm not paying out every penny I have at court either. That is not my plan.

I'm pretty sure my solicitor can handle it. Ill leave it to her.
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/26/12 01:20 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by Scotland
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
indie, I'm going to weigh in to tell you to NOT break Plan B. As long as you have another way to get your point to WH, take the other way.

Didn't want to weigh in, but this is exactly what I was thinking. Why fall into what he wants you to do? THis is YOUR plan, and you're doing it YOUR way.
X3
x4!

indie, don't go against your own advice. i see from your last post you aren't going to. whew! just goes to show, though, that's it's so very hard to walk the walk, isn't it? we are too close to our own sitches, which is why it's so good to post these things. *so glad* you are going to let lawyer handle it! and pleased to see you so far along in pb that you can make this serious decision (d) because you are *ready* to. good on ya!
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/12 07:03 PM
Hi Indiegirl, it's been about a week. Anything new going on?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/12 07:14 PM
No not really. We decided to give him a few weeks to respond and after that it will be a court battle (god I hope not, I really dont have the money)

So I'm done thinking about a situation I can do nothing about right now. All my thoughts are on a vintage ball I'm going to tomorrow. A 1940s theme. Im going to do my hair up in those mad rolls and dance my little heart out.

Plan Bers Pedicure Club - I will be rocking a very vintagey red on my toenails and my hands!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/12 07:30 PM
Sounds like fun, have a great time Indie!
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/12 08:22 PM
I too, hope for your sake it doesn't devolve into a court battle. I didn't have the money either; my xW had a wealthy sister backing her, and I didn't stand a chance. Took me 2 years post-divorce to pay off legal debt. Yuck!!

I hope you have lots of fun at the ball tomorrow. That sounds fantastic!

I'm going to a friend's birthday after work today who's celebrating at a bar that serves over 200 different beers on tap! I'm not going to try them all, however, as I have an early morning workout to attend. Have a great weekend!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 08/31/12 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
No not really. We decided to give him a few weeks to respond and after that it will be a court battle (god I hope not, I really dont have the money)

So I'm done thinking about a situation I can do nothing about right now. All my thoughts are on a vintage ball I'm going to tomorrow. A 1940s theme. Im going to do my hair up in those mad rolls and dance my little heart out.

Plan Bers Pedicure Club - I will be rocking a very vintagey red on my toenails and my hands!
Have fun.

You should take pics and add them to the Nail place thread of your nails. smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/09/12 07:20 PM
So I am rolling along as per usual. I had such an AMAZING time at the vintage ball. I had my hair in rollers for 24 hours but I managed to pull off an authentic wartime hairdo! It's now my FB profile pic. Everyone telling me I look like my grandmother.

Have decided I may move to London. This is risky because it means leaving the house available for Softlad to roll back into and take control of. However I think it unlikely. He has a whole new life in Singapore and my family can keep an eye on things too.

I just have to get moving. There are no opportunities for me here workwise and my finances are suffering due to the divorce. When I am ready to date, there will also be a better pool of eligible men in London.

Was listening the other day to Dr Harley advising a BW in my very situation. He was very confident that the WS would want to return to the marriage after x amount of time in Plan B, in spite of his moving away. He said most likely after divorce. However he counselled the childless BW not to consider recovery. He said there was no logic in it.

I agree. I considered asking my IM to block all messages starting now, but we have too much in the way of finances and divorce stuff etc coming up. Then I considered blocking all personal messages, but I think I will stick to my original plan. He gets to have his say until the divorce is finalised.

I'm healed enough now after so much time in Plan B I honestly dont yearn for recovery or repentance. At this point it would actually interfere with my plans.

But ... I've discovered nothing is impossible.
Good to hear it Indie
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/10/12 08:49 AM
I'm glad things are going well for you... and wow, maybe a move to London!

Thanks for updating and inspiring Plan B'ers.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/10/12 10:59 AM
Oh, and Indie, if you get a chance please post a link to that clip you heard... If its different to the one BB put on my thread.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/10/12 06:18 PM
No it's the same show!!!!!

Actually people tried to tell me that the relationship wasn't logical early on in my thread. We had no children, he had been financially unfaithful, I was young etc....

I do fully agree with all those reasons today and it's why I wouldn't attempt recovery now. But was I wrong to embark on the MB plans at all? Should I have just gone Plan FU?

I really think I took the best route by following MB. And if he had been remorseful, I am sure we could have made a better marriage than we had before. The dishonesty could have been corrected. He could have healed me instead of my having to heal myself. Which would have been nice. I also dont think I would have fully healed if I had known he was remorseful and wanting to do whatever he could.

But NOW, no way. I've worked way too hard to get to this point - a personal recovery - over the past year. I don't see why an illogical relationship should also demand another two-to-five years of my time and hard work when I've already achieved my goal - happiness.

It's like what Dr Harley said on that show. "If I was her father, I'd say: 'What's good for YOU right now?"

But definitely Plan A and Plan B are the best tools for a personal recovery. If you're a buyer you need to know you did all you could to heal properly.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/14/12 12:05 AM
Been thinking about truth today.

Its been an emotional few days in my city, my home of Liverpool.

In 1989 hundreds of Liverpool football fans went to a major football game at Hillsborough, in Yorkshire. Due to an unsafe building and the neglect of the police in charge of the event, 96 of them never came home. They were crushed to death, victims aged from ten to 65 years old. Many were just laid on the pitch to die because the police wouldn't let ambulances in.

I was ten, and safe at home. I knew scores of people were dead by 3pm. It wasn't until 7pm that we knew relatives who had gone to the game were safe and well. No mobile phones in those days. We had gone through a lot but we were lucky. Countless others were not.

For years, the police have blamed fans for being drunk and out of control in spite of camera footage showing fans rescuing each other, making make-shift stretchers, giving CPR and trying to get to ambulances.

Yesterday after 23 years, fans were completely exonerated and it has been revealed that the authorities tried to conceal what had happened

Top police officers lied, and changed 116 out of 164 statements to make themselves look better. They issued a press release claiming fans had been urinating on and pickpocketing the dead.

They stuck to their story in spite of their own (traumatised) officers breaking ranks to become whistleblowers.

I am so proud of my city for pursuing the truth for 23 years. Not a single copy of the newspaper which repeated the lies has been sold or even appeared in this region since then. They've lost ļæ½52 million in revenue.

Liverpudlians, or Scousers as we are called, are a stubborn, forthright lot. I am proud to be a Liverpudlian today. Proud to be Scouse.

Somewhere in Singapore is a man who is clearly English. It's shorts and t-shirt weather over there. Football fans in his vicinity will recognise that he is a Liverpool fan due to the football badge tatooed on his left leg.

On his right leg is a flame, with the city's emblem, a Liverbird in the centre. It is the Justice Flame. The logo the Hilsborough disaster's bereaved families use to advertise their search for truth.

I think about Softlad out there, with the tattos on his football-players legs. A boy whose very calves were shaped kicking a ball in the streets of Liverpool.

He is out there, living a lie. Hiding from the truth of what he did. Is he proud at recent events - or shamed?

All I know is that the endurance of people who lost their children and were then turned on by the very people who were supposed to protect them - is humbling.

Callous people told them to 'move on' and stop probing. As though the truth were play doh and could be moulded into more acceptable shapes. Doled out in bits and pieces.

No. We should all be vigilant in our search for truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Great story Indie. And great attitude too, as the truth does set us free does it not?
So who were they trying to protect? Has the lies been worth the chains that bound them all these years?
I would say no
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/14/12 07:02 AM
There are people who say they were just saving their own skins, keeping their jobs, pensions, not serving time for manslaughter by covering it up.

I can't help but keep comparing it to waywardism though and think a lot of it has to do with the human mistake of lying to ourselves.

The senior police officers arguably started off innocently. Much like the average affair. They had trained for hooligan attacks and when chaos broke out they mistakenly thought that was happening and beat back fans who were trying to free themselves.

When it became clear people had been dying - and were dead. That's when the moral choice that often is presented to the wayward was presented to them. The choice - 'I have done something terrible. Do I tell the truth - unflinchingly to myself, before telling it to others? Or do I villify my victims?'
What a powerful story Indie, thank you so much for sharing. May the victims find some peace in the truth. Isn't it strange when you experience these things that at one time, you would have shared with WH? Just share it with the ghost of him...and appreciate where you are in a time of healing and growth, much better than the alternative of being where he is.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/14/12 08:54 AM
Originally Posted by JenniferVoyager
Isn't it strange when you experience these things that at one time, you would have shared with WH? Just share it with the ghost of him...and appreciate where you are in a time of healing and growth, much better than the alternative of being where he is.


Exactly! thank you for understanding Jen. This whole thing has made me realise I can hardly believe he is not the same man.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/14/12 11:40 PM
Painting my fingers aqua and my toes emerald green to match my dress. Off to the races tomorrow. Don't do any rain dances, Caracal.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/15/12 08:46 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Painting my fingers aqua and my toes emerald green to match my dress. Off to the races tomorrow. Don't do any rain dances, Caracal.
Wouldn't dream of it Indie grin

Emerald green would so suit you. Have fun!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/21/12 08:54 AM
This is a funny update really, as I am not sure what to make of it myself.

All week, including last weekend I have been in a low point with a lack of energy. It's not that surprising. My job has become super stressful, incredibly unrewarding, I am staying at the office later and shift work is affecting my sleep.

People at the races remarked that I seemed quiet. I had a good time anyway, lots of dancing afterwards.

On Wednesday night it all seemed to come to a head. Lately I have been feeling pretty cocky about how well/healed I have been feeling. I now think I would want the divorce under any circumstances, regardless of how remorseful he was.

Perhaps that's why I indulged in a silly daydream. Not even a sleep-dream, I was fully awake and standing in my hallway.

I pictured him on the doorstep weeping with remorse. Not so much a pity party as a pity carnival. I felt for him, though. He kept saying he wanted to 'come home'. I had to explain that there wasnt any home any more.

Anyway it made me cry. Not in pain, or even discomfort, I only felt a sense of pity for him. Half an hour later I was saying 'What was THAT all about?'

The rollercoaster is odd. Low point missiles, strange thoughts and daydreams will strike you like a bolt out of the blue.

I was trying to explain it to friends at dinner last night. Even my friend who was cheated on by her fiance didnt really 'get it'. They've seen me be so happy and this new info didnt fit. Ah well.

I suppose I can't have expected to have rolled as high on the rollercoaster as I have been doing, without experiencing another low. Part of me thinks I shouldnt have indulged in the image. Another part thinks it was good practice in case it really happens. The image of his remorse has less power over me now.

Tomorrow morning I am going to the library (still no laptop) to fill out a job application for a very high powered job I dont think I have much chance of getting. But you have to be in it to win it right? I'm going to treat myself to a fancy coffee and BLT afterwards.

Today I send off my visas for India after spending ages filling out the forms. Their immigration now knows more about me than I do. There is heavy, heavy rain today. As there has been all summer.

Could do with an Indian Summer. Roll on November.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/21/12 10:29 AM
Indie, I think my rain dances last year may have impacted on british summers until Gollum leaves your shores. Sorry!

Thanks for the update, as always. I am right now riding a high on the coaster, things look great for me and I am getting cocky. Oddly, I am hesitantly looking over my shoulder like I am waiting for something to hit me. So your words keep me in check.

I too have had the occasional daydream of late. Initially I did not dare indulge in these, it was just too painful. Then, the daydream would have been about reconciliation if I had dared allow it. Now... it is more about remorse. Part of me may always want to believe Gollum can be a better man. I am glad I have not lost that part of myself that likes to believe people can change.

I think your daydream shows how far along you are in healing. Yes, you would like him to be remorseful, it would be a step in SL becoming the man he could be. Whether that is the man for you, however... hmmm.

Glad to hear you are not giving up on the job front. And India... you HAVE to post pics. China and India are top of my list.

And you mock indie... I think you know full well who you are, better then any Indian immigration officer. MB warrior princess. Now THAT would have been something to put on the visa application under job description!
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/21/12 11:25 AM
Daydreaming is part of the healing process, as painful as it may be, it's healthier than supressing our feelings, even during the highs.

Indie - good luck with the job application. India wow, can't wait to hear your travel stories.

Cara maybe you need to put your new found skills to work during the drought times in Oz, the farmers would certainly welcome your rain dances.

Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/21/12 01:27 PM
You have nothing to lose by applying for the job.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/26/12 09:50 PM
I'm having a bad night tonight. Earlier I was with my little niece and nephews. My 2yo nephew (the black pudding fan) was climbing and playing near me the way boys do when they want attention.

I asked for a hug and he curled up on me like a koala. I told him I loved him, and he sat up, gave me a long clear look and then gave me a very solemn kiss.

The rest of the evening went well. My 7yo nephew who has loved me since I used to sing him to sleep gave me a big hug goodbye. My 9month niece has decided to start beaming when she sees me and giggles when I kiss her. She went away with a newly learned cheery wave.

It's just undone me. When I got home I couldn't stop crying. I think I would be a good mum and its getting so hard to believe it will ever happen.

This isn't even about my age really, or Softlad wasting 11 years for me. It's just basic disbelief.

On films, on the telly, all people talk about is porn and disposable relationships. It seems like such a knockabout world and as though the pool of decent people is shrinking.

It seems hard to believe sometimes that the father of my children is out there.

Plus I'm broke. My job isn't really paying for the increased bills or the divorce. Or the crazy plans I formed early on in Plan B, like India. I can still just about swing it but it'll be tight.

Before all this happened, I was happily married and believed we were about to start our family. I had some modest savings.

Of course things are really better now. The decks are cleared at least.

You could put my mood down to the simply horrendous rain the past few days. A months worth in a day. Flooding all over.

Driving home today the sky went blue for the first time in a week. The sky was turning red and the fields were incredibly green.

Maybe I'm just in my rainy patch before the sun comes out.

I must get a move on and get a job. But that will likely mean moving away and then I will lose my little people.

I'm just a mess tonight.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/26/12 10:49 PM
I'm thinking of asking him through my IM to hand over his financial docs. If he would just do that, I could get divorced, rent out the house. He would get his share too. I just can't afford to take him to court. I just can't get into that much debt. I would end up working for nothing.

Thinking of: "I have been advised by my solicitor that you need to provide all your financial documents to your solicitors very soon.

If we don't cooperate and put our documents forward, we have to go to court. This could cost us 5K each. Money we could keep hold of just by handing over our financial documents. I have already provided mine and told the court I will cooperate in full.

Please let me know whether you will be providing those financial documents or if I have to prepare for court.

What do you think?
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/26/12 11:57 PM
Have your solicitor send this message to him or his:

"You need to provide all your financial documents by (name a particular date).
If you do not provide it by then, we will go to court. This will cost additional money from you.
If we do not receive the documents by said date, we will start court proceedings henceforth"

You, Indie do not contact waywardwhathisname. Your attorney gets tough and clearly states the deal for you.
Posted By: mason Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/27/12 12:39 AM
I am so sorry you are down, I have not posted to you before but have been following you. Funny, I always thought without kids that I could just walk away, but the heartache is the same...
Either side is not easy and at the end of the day we are just all trying to know better and do better.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/27/12 01:54 AM
hug

((((INDIE))))
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/27/12 04:37 AM
hug
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/27/12 08:53 AM
Thank you everybody smile

Originally Posted by reading
Have your solicitor send this message to him or his:

"You need to provide all your financial documents by (name a particular date).
If you do not provide it by then, we will go to court. This will cost additional money from you.
If we do not receive the documents by said date, we will start court proceedings henceforth"

You, Indie do not contact waywardwhathisname. Your attorney gets tough and clearly states the deal for you.


Of course I wouldnt contact him directly, I just need an answer from him through the IM on this financial matter in order to make a whole host of plans.

I arranged for my solicitor to send a very similar heavy handed letter to his lawyer a few weeks ago. The problem is we have no idea why his lawyer isn't responding. It could be either they can't get an answer/can't get hold of him. My solicitor said they could simply be incompetent or that people taking summer holidays has seen a back up in the work at the firm.

She cant send a letter to him directly because she doesn't have the address. Neither do I. When I broached her about getting a message to him she said she thought it was a good idea, because if we could get an idea of his mindset we could then start making plans.

If Scotty were to send this, and she got no reply, or no reply that she could tell me about I could rule out the other possibilites.

Then I would have to consider some other alternatives.

Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/27/12 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by reading
Have your solicitor send this message to him or his:

"You need to provide all your financial documents by (name a particular date).
If you do not provide it by then, we will go to court. This will cost additional money from you.
If we do not receive the documents by said date, we will start court proceedings henceforth"
You, Indie do not contact waywardwhathisname. Your attorney gets tough and clearly states the deal for you.
X 2.

Indie, warrior that you are... lets think Art of War.

Don't show SL your hand. Don't display weakness. Simply state the consequences for him... this is all waywards understand anyways. In other words, display profits to entice them.

And you need to get a plan together if this is what it might come to. SL may have the means to fight... don't underestimate the enemy. If they are substantial, prepare for them.

By the way... I am in the same boat financially... trying to decide if Court action is in my best interests. This is what I think the decision comes down to. My emotional and financial interests, both now and longer term.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/27/12 10:38 AM
She has sent that very letter weeks ago! I agree it was a good move! She came up with the idea, but I would have asked her to if not. This is not her first rodeo.

But there is no way of knowing if he has received it in Singapore. Absolutely nobody knows where he is.

I can send the same message through IM and know that he has gotten it. If he doesnt reply, I will know to push on in another way.


Originally Posted by Caracal
Don't show SL your hand. Don't display weakness. Simply state the consequences for him...


Believe me I'm not. I would not even hint that I am thinking I cant afford it. the note through IM would simply warn him that depite the cost, we are going to court if he doenst pull his finger out. From his perspective he will believe that I am prepared to go to court. He will know I can get my parents financial backing on that. He knows I have great credit. And we both know that he is in buckets load of debt.

Originally Posted by Caracal
And you need to get a plan together if this is what it might come to. SL may have the means to fight... don't underestimate the enemy. If they are substantial, prepare for them.


No I dont need to get a reactionary plan together because it wont come to that unless I decide it will. I am the petitioner. It is impossible for him as the respondent to the divorce to take the wheel. That's why I filed before I was ready - so I would be the petitioner and in control of the whole process.

And I know he doesnt have the means, he ruined his credit years ago. He would need a lottery win to sort it all out. I still get a lot of his mail and it's all from creditors.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/27/12 10:52 AM
Your plan seems strong, you know SL's finances are a weakness. You are strong in this and he will know that.

NG suggested on my thread that I seek financial costs for Gollum not co-operating as he is doing exactly what SL is doing (huh, wayward script?) I intend to follow this up. Can you do this in UK?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/27/12 11:08 AM
I could do. If I had the initial funds for a court battle, I would do.

I spoke to my solicitor this morning and told her that quite simply the money had dried up for this. Far from providing the money for a court battle, I needed to stop paying her what I already am each month. That money has been going into an account and should be largely untouched and available to pay for most imminent legal fees, such as letters and applying for the decree absolute.

She was brilliant actually and said my situation wasn't unusual. When a cheater is involved the process becomes very dragged out and the petitioner often runs out of cash. She said she definitely wouldnt advise me getting into a mess financially over it all. She said she was sure there was enough money already put aside to come up with an alternative plan, one that I could afford.

She said possibly the strongest thing I could possibly do is to just drop everything for the time being. I have the decree nisi, which is basically a ruling that I have the legal entitlement for the divorce and that wont expire. All I need for the divorce to be finalised is a rubber stamp and a financial settlement.

She said I could either divorce now and arrange the settlement after the divorce or I could pause divorce proceedings until I am in a better position financially to push on. If i get a new job, or simply start saving up again.

She's going to go over the figures and options and send them to me in an email. I feel much better now that I've spoken to her.

She said it's a shame I dont qualify for legal aid because then I would have my court battle paid for, and SL would then be forced into paying.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
She said I could either divorce now and arrange the settlement after the divorce or I could pause divorce proceedings until I am in a better position financially to push on.

I'd say do it now and get it over with. Close this chapter and start a new one. smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/05/12 10:14 PM
I'm Divorced.....

Came home and my decree absolute was waiting for me with my letters.

Financial stuff is still unresolved, but legally I'm a free woman. Have been since September 14!

Dr Harley said Plan B would make a divorce hurt less. At a time when I could hardly breathe with the pain, I could only hope he was right.

Today I'm jubilant. I'm free!
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/05/12 10:25 PM
Hooray! Go out and do something nice for yourself. smile

You deserve it!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/05/12 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I'm Divorced.....

Came home and my decree absolute was waiting for me with my letters.

Financial stuff is still unresolved, but legally I'm a free woman. Have been since September 14!

Dr Harley said Plan B would make a divorce hurt less. At a time when I could hardly breathe with the pain, I could only hope he was right.

Today I'm jubilant. I'm free!


I'm happy for you.

Happy you're jubilant.

Happy you're free.
Posted By: black_raven Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/05/12 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Today I'm jubilant. I'm free!

smile

Good for you indie!



Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/05/12 10:40 PM
I'd had the WORST day too.

I am staying with a friend this weekend but also working. She lives nearer my office than I do. I'm selling my rings to pay for India tomorrow afternoon.

I have to clear my kitchen cupboards as my Dad is taking them down Sunday so they can fit a new boiler on Tuesday. Pack a bag for the weekend, get my jewels together and my visa stuff which they sent back and I have to reappy tomorrow.

Then after nowhere near enough sleep Ill get up at the crack of dawn and head off to do early morning calls to the emergency services on my newspatch. Hopefully there won't be too much going on but then again, we need a front page this weekend. After doing three days work in one morning (after staying late tonight) I'll meet my friend to go shopping, or rather go selling.

THEN I can celebrate. When I texted her about the divorce she replied "mucho vino tomorrow"
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/05/12 10:55 PM
My sisters and GF took me out to "Celebrate New Beginnings" too smile You sound well. Hugs, indie! smile
Awesome and congrats!! Freedom is a beautiful thing. Can't wait to here about your India trip!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/12 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Today I'm jubilant. I'm free!

And, you are indeed a Marriage Builder's success story !!!!!!!!

hurray
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/12 12:20 AM
Indie,
You rock.
Married/Separated/Divorced

none of those things define you and you write really great posts for us on MB

I wish you the very best in your continued journey in life.
Grats Indie, your a champ
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/12 01:23 AM
Holy cow! Well done, indiegirl, Im glad youre free and lighthearted.
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/12 01:41 AM
WTG, you truly have been an inspiration to many, especially other Plan Bers. Thank You. I am excited for you.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/12 03:03 AM

Anyone can be knocked down...but how you pick yourself back up is a measure of your strength and character.

You are a true success story Indie... and the "classy" one.

Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/12 08:40 AM
Well done to you Indie, your journey is an inspiration to others. And I am glad you feel liberated.

No longer just surviving, but thriving.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/12 10:15 AM
I cant even imagine getting half this far without everyone's support.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/12 11:12 AM
I like the new siggy.

A new chapter. One where SL no longer gets to play a lead role.

And its up to you who you cast as the new lead, if and when you want to.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/06/12 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Today I'm jubilant. I'm free!

And, you are indeed a Marriage Builder's success story !!!!!!!!

hurray

x2
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/07/12 01:56 PM
Happy, happy, joy, joy! I'm still pure sunshine today.

I had thought I was ready to really move on, now I KNOW.

If the divorce hits him hard and he wants back in, it'll make no difference to me.

It'll be too LITTLE too LATE.

A friend of mine told me she thought my stance of not dating before divorce had been admirable.

I know people had been worried about me, and wanted me to feel better faster, but they all see the wisdom of it now. Now they can see how happy I am smile
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/08/12 09:43 AM
hurray and...

dance2 dance2 dance2
Posted By: unwritten Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/08/12 06:04 PM
Congratulations Indie on your divorce. Done with that chapter, and now you are staring at the blank page before you. Today is where your book begins, the rest is still unwritten.... (come on had to know that's where I got my name...fitting for all of us MBers wouldn't you say? but particularly you, in this moment).

I admire you so much for taking the admirable high road during this last length of your marital journey. Even into a dark separation you upheld your marital vows. You should be very very proud of yourself for the strength of character you have portrayed through all of this! You really are an inspiration to many.

Softlad is a dxxm fool. Just sayin.
Originally Posted by unwritten
Softlad is a dxxm fool. Just sayin.

Couldn't help it this made me laugh..

Yeah Indie thats the word to describe the softheaded guy, a fool. No doubt it will sink in someday, but now onto your life, with all its promise.

Grats you are a star
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/08/12 07:42 PM
Yeah, I like your sayin Unwritten - nearly made it part of my sig!!!
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/08/12 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I'm Divorced.....

Came home and my decree absolute was waiting for me with my letters.

Financial stuff is still unresolved, but legally I'm a free woman.
Hi Indiegirl, I was away on travel last week, and just read your post. Celebration is definitely in order!!

Not meaning to dampen your spirits, I want to offer a word of caution about what may lie ahead. I was in a similar situation as you following my divorce: finances still unresolved. It took an additional 5 months to resolve everything, and it was much more emotionally draining that I would have predicted.

Before going through it, I thought the divorce decree would be the most significant event, and resolving finances would be a small matter of cleaning up a few details. In my case, it turned out to be the other way around. Like you, I felt free and jubilant when my divorce was granted; but 5 months later, I was an emotional wreck following the resolution of our finances.

In order to minimize emotional impact on yourself, I would advise letting your solicitor handle as much of the remaining work as possible.

Enjoy your freedom, but don't drop your guard just yet. Good luck!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/08/12 09:09 PM
Oh I know. Its going to be more like an 8 month court battle and I don't have the money to do it.

So I'm going to have a mini woop woop and fiesta before that grim reality sinks in.

I have to take a financial break from it, so might as well take a mental one too!
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/09/12 02:39 PM
Sorry to hear that.... about you not having the money for a court battle. I was in the same situation. My ex was being financed by a well-to-do sister, and I got buried in court. My attorney advised me to take the deal I ended up taking because, even though it wasn't fair, to continue fighting would have kept me emotionally involved and driven up the legal fees (and I was already borrowing against my retirement fund to pay divorce costs).

I'm thankful I took her advice, but it did leave me on the short end of the stick financially. Happiness is priceless however!!

I hope things work out as much in your favor as possible. Sending you good vibes across the Atlantic smile
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/09/12 03:41 PM
Cheers
Yeah Indie, welcome to the BS crowd who foots the bill.

It will be worth every penny in the end, your freedom.. it allways is
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/20/12 11:42 PM
So I'm godmother at my niece's christening tomorrow. Its a good thing. Looking forward to it and the celebration afterwards.

Mine and softlads worlds feel so far apart these days that I hadn't even considered this.

But having checked Facebook, there'll be quite a few old faces there. SL's friends and my old friends. People who didn't support me. People who didn't even ask how I was.

I will of course also have my entire family around me. I don't have to speak to anyone I don't want to and can make polite excuses if anyone tries.

But maybe I want to.

The dress I'm wearing is the black dress I wore to DFs (OWs husband) funeral. Livened up with pink heels and a pink bag. Pearls with a bow. I had a bit of a mini tremble about wearing this dress after seeing the RSVPd guest list...

...But sod it. It looks good on me.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/20/12 11:48 PM
hurray for you friend.

May you and your darling niece have a blessed day. smile
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/21/12 01:32 AM
To quote Unwritten - "I admire you so much for taking the admirable high road during this last length of your marital journey. Even into a dark separation you upheld your marital vows. You should be very very proud of yourself for the strength of character you have portrayed through all of this! You really are an inspiration to many."

x 2

You certainly have handled yourself with dignity and class and can be proud.
hug hurray
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/21/12 08:22 AM
OK. I'm having a wardrobe crisis now. Everything looks dreadful!

WHAT is wrong with me?

Beware Plan Bers and have a gorgeous dress to hand for just such occasions. Which I thought I had done.

Right. Cup of tea, then I need to go find my logical head.
Aww, sorry for the crisis! It should be a beautiful day and experience regardless of what you wear...the strength in you will shine through.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/21/12 04:24 PM
LOL!

It is attitude Indie........you can wear a burlap sack if you strut with confidence in it!
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/21/12 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by happyfuture66
To quote Unwritten - "I admire you so much for taking the admirable high road during this last length of your marital journey. Even into a dark separation you upheld your marital vows. You should be very very proud of yourself for the strength of character you have portrayed through all of this! You really are an inspiration to many."

x 2

You certainly have handled yourself with dignity and class and can be proud.
hug hurray

This becomes the most powerful form of character and integrity in the end. Trust me ... this speaks at the highest level when journeying into new relationships. Nothing speaks more volumes to someone than the ability to remain loyal, faithful, and graceful through the worst time in your life.
Originally Posted by Lovinmykiddos
Originally Posted by happyfuture66
To quote Unwritten - "I admire you so much for taking the admirable high road during this last length of your marital journey. Even into a dark separation you upheld your marital vows. You should be very very proud of yourself for the strength of character you have portrayed through all of this! You really are an inspiration to many."

x 2

You certainly have handled yourself with dignity and class and can be proud.
hug hurray

This becomes the most powerful form of character and integrity in the end. Trust me ... this speaks at the highest level when journeying into new relationships. Nothing speaks more volumes to someone than the ability to remain loyal, faithful, and graceful through the worst time in your life.

Yes Indie, theses are true words indeed

I remember in my first marriage, when I had reason to expect my wife was fooling around, and where I worked I was hit on all the time, and lots of affair waywards worked there too...(It was in the 70s and I was in my early 20s, it was Saturday night fever and the me generation crowd, but I wanted the marriage to work.)


I was an attractive guy and had lots of women attracted to me, but just didn't want to jump into the rutting behavior of all the other idiots, or should I say, could not jump into it...


Lol I even went to a Shrink to see what was wrong with me,,it seemed this was the way to get ahead in this world and this place...sleep around ya know...


He asked me,,"So you are coming to me because you have morals?" Then really laughed it off.

The world is full of sick idiots, yup foolish sick idiots..

You stand above them Godmother, your niece should be proud.
Talking to my 28 year old DD, her husband, and one of our friends last night at my DGD birthday party.

The consensus expressed was that I really had no responsibility for what happened to my wayward W, her addiction issues, or my kids loss of thier mother, it was beyond my control, and out of my reach, but I will always feel responsible, if I only....

But my DD said" You know how they say,'Its the thought that counts?'. We know who you are Dad, how hard you worked and what your about"

If they all were not doing so good, even the youngest at 21, I would probably question how I raised them, but thier character shines though to reflect the best of both of us.

Yes they saw the best of her before the drugs took over, and then they recognized the worst, and they are totally human and responsible for themselves, not blaming anyone for thier issues and problems, they are free

Freedom is bought with a price, giving yourself to a higher purpose than our feelings, call it God or Budda, or whatever you want, our hearts are seldom living in truth, and being aware of that, is the highest form of humility.

My children know my heart, and know I would love to still have Mom alive and happy and well. That is good for me, and I have nothing to prove, but yet as a man, I always do, because talk is cheap

You did Softlad a favor, one he probably will never know, but you loved him just the same indie
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/22/12 01:54 PM
Thanks CP. I am quite proud of my attempts to get him to really see what he was doing. Not my problem now though.

Well it really isn't worth getting yourself into a lather over what former friends, who were bad friends, think. I should have known that.

They didn't even show! Last minute excuses. I didn't mention it during the day, but my cousin did, she said they were too ashamed to show their faces. I had always assumed those who were unsupportive of betrayed people were just not very aware of their role and what they should do. But this suggests they DO know they were in the wrong.

A fabulous day for my niece, 10 months, and my 2-yr-old nephew. Brother and sister, christened together.

When the priest read out the names of those to be baptised he ended with their names, and my nephew's last of all which led him to reply back by happily shouting 'Yeah!' in church really loudly, which made everyone laugh.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/22/12 10:28 PM
Isn't it funny that no matter how much we learn about boundaries on this wonderful site, our instincts are still the best guide?

I went to a evening class tonight. During the introductions, it came out I was a reporter. After the break, the instructor stopped me in the hallway and asked me about my work, mentioning his wife worked in the field. He seemed to be a very nice man.

However my instincts were screaming. I was very uncomfortable. Rather than standing outside in isolation, I began to walk past him so rest of the conversation carried on in the room with other people. After the class, I wanted to get away very quickly.

Later, I couldn't understand why. I had to think a bit.

He could have asked me about my work in the classroom, but didn't. He had been standing in the hallway for no apparent reason. Waiting almost. He was almost blocking my entry to the class, though it was obvious that's where I was headed. When we got inside and around other people, the conversation tapered off but while we were on our own he acted as though he had all day to chat.

Plus the aspects of my work he was asking about, legal training, were kind of dull. Why would he want to know about something his wife could tell him? Even though he mentioned his wife, it was all a bit odd.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Plus the aspects of my work he was asking about, legal training, were kind of dull. Why would he want to know about something his wife could tell him? Even though he mentioned his wife, it was all a bit odd.

Yes good instincts.

He could of been playing the game of,"Im married just so you know. does that bother you from us furthuring our relationship?..or..Somebody allready has me, so im desirable, don't you want me too?.."

Yeah you never know, and you did the right thing by blowing him off politely
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/23/12 12:16 AM
ITA with CP.

I would get out of such a class if I could.
Posted By: markos Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/23/12 02:04 AM
Originally Posted by karmasrose
ITA with CP.

I would get out of such a class if I could.

And consider reporting him. I don't know too many situations where instructors hitting on students is considered ethical.
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by karmasrose
ITA with CP.

I would get out of such a class if I could.

And consider reporting him. I don't know too many situations where instructors hitting on students is considered ethical.

Yeah I would get out of that class too, just to much familiararity IMO

The way he approached you, that alone would make anybody uncomfortable

Reporting him would be touchy, because if he was fishing for whatever..it was just left at that, he didn't accually hit on you...

Maybe he was testing the waters and intended to, if you showed interest..either way, these were subjects that could have been brought up in class like you said, and getting into a private convo in the hallway was out of line for a male authority figure.

Sorry your instincts just may be right, and wondering about that really will mess up your head while he remains your teacher. You didn't do it, he should have known better.

Just transfer out if possible
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/23/12 05:19 AM
It was a one off class. I could be wrong but I don't think he was hitting on me consciously, he just didn't have good boundaries. The unnecessary interaction, speaking with me alone - he marked me out for attention. That's what bugged me. Everything he said was perfectly polite and within reason, it was more the context that bothered me.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/23/12 01:01 PM
Yep. This is what I meant by my post. He was probably not hitting on you consciously. Had poor boundaries and also I think people are drawn to getting their needs met, without really knowing what EN's are or the fact that the people around them are actually meeting EN's. In this case perhaps you are attractive and meeting his PA need and therefore he is drawn to be around you more than the other students. Not consciously but subconsciously.

Or, he is just a ahole who consciously sought you out.

But for the former, I don't necessarily think this is a bad guy, just a product of society.

I know there have been responses to call his wife or report it or whatever. I think most people would be floored by this response, saying um, I was only chit chatting in the hall with her (and think you are crazy), or would feel like that was misunderstood and not their intention, because indeed it might not have been their conscious intention.

In my former pre MB life I could have had people calling H left and right, but then again, perhaps I would have been educated earlier if that were the case.
Posted By: markos Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/23/12 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
It was a one off class. I could be wrong but I don't think he was hitting on me consciously, he just didn't have good boundaries. The unnecessary interaction, speaking with me alone - he marked me out for attention. That's what bugged me. Everything he said was perfectly polite and within reason, it was more the context that bothered me.

I wonder if he has done this to other students.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/23/12 08:07 PM
If he has poor boundaries one day, logic would dictate he has poor boundaries every day.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/23/12 08:12 PM
Exactly. I'd say it's only a matter of time before he gets himself fired with such behavior.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/23/12 08:52 PM
No, I doubt it. It isn't an academic course, its just trainers and trainees who only meet for one session for a very basic refresher.

He won't meet any student more than for that one off session, so his poor boundaries are unlikely to escalate in that period of time. He's unlikely to get fired for chatting to one of the people about their line of work in the hallway. I think he is genuinely clueless that taking an interest in a womans life could lead to an EA.

I got the impression he was one of those teachers who need to get something back: feedback, rapport or whatever. And he never does because the nature of the course means he's constantly talking to fresh batches of strangers.

Unfortunately when he seizes the opportunity to converse with someone on the course he does so with poor boundaries.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I got the impression he was one of those teachers who need to get something back: feedback, rapport or whatever. And he never does because the nature of the course means he's constantly talking to fresh batches of strangers.

Unfortunately when he seizes the opportunity to converse with someone on the course he does so with poor boundaries.

Yeah sounds like he feels unappreciated by his peers or maybe his wife, and is looking for it in all the wrong places.

Its not your problem anymore, and even if you had to see him, it still would not be your problem, and you would be a fool to try to help Indie lol

Hope he gets help and deals with this inappropriate behavior, before it become seriuos, and he loses his carreer, or his mind.

But what do you say to someone like that? "Listen I think this is unappropiate and you should see somebody, you make me nervous"

Or wait and hope he sees himself and gets it?

Or when he reaches out to the wrong people, in the wrong way, or they call him on this behavior..and report him?

Will that get treated right and his head get cleared by the right kind of help?


Yeah its over now so glad you don't have to go back at least
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/25/12 10:32 PM
So my solicitor called with - gasp - GOOD NEWS.

I called her at lunch time to say I didn't know how to proceed to court without funds and she said we should sit down and discuss options. Then we realised we both have such nutso schedules, that was going to be tricky. But we made a date.

Just a few hours later (so she called me as soon as she heard) she left a message on my phone.

Softlad's solicitor is putting together all the financial info we requested. They've even offered to pay a good deal of my divorce costs, including the extra amounts incurred by chasing him.

Guess he didn't like those letters threatening court action.

Or his mum getting told about his behaviour.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So my solicitor called with - gasp - GOOD NEWS.


Yeah thats a surprise Ill bet

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Guess he didn't like those letters threatening court action.

Or his mum getting told about his behaviour.

Either way it will be over soon Indie

Yeah his Mum ha more character than he has? Yeah I would say you were lucky in the long run. He sure sounds like a softlad..in the head
Great!! Excited about the chance for total freedom for you, and him offering to pay the fees is great!!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/26/12 11:10 PM
Thank you peeps and I was soooooooo tempted to break Plan B and ignore the Art of War

I knew the best general has the most patience and simply waits the other out.

But I felt like I was getting nowhere and I started getting noticeably desperate and weak. Thank god it never showed.

I met a very successful businessman the other day who has simply sailed through the recession.

He told me had never made any great strides. He said everything had been achieved in little steps. He said: "You will feel like you are getting nowhere. But you are."
Originally Posted by indiegirl
"You will feel like you are getting nowhere. But you are."

Yep, a wise fellow
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 10/30/12 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by indiegirl
"You will feel like you are getting nowhere. But you are."

Yep, a wise fellow
Aaah, I love this advice.

I remember panicking in Plan B that I was not healing, not moving forward. But it was working all along. I was taking small steps, and I continue to. But I look back and see the huge strides forward.

Indie, I am so glad to hear that things may be settled for you.
Originally Posted by Caracal
But it was working all along. I was taking small steps, and I continue to. But I look back and see the huge strides forward.

Yeah it reminds me of that prayer..

"God give me patience, and I want it right now!"

Also from Fred who was a regular poster, and went through a lot, he was once told..."When you are walking through Hell, don't stop and look around, keep walking"

Sounds like you have
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/01/12 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by Caracal
Aaah, I love this advice.

I know, I feel better - so much more motivated since I heard this advice. It made the man in question a millionaire. So surely it can do a little something for me.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/01/12 01:21 PM
There is a country song by Rodney Atkins with these lyrics

Well you know those times when you feel like
There's a sign there on your back
That says I don't mind if you kick me, seems like everybody has
Things go from bad to worse
You think it can't get worse than that
And then they do

You step off the straight and narrow
And you don't know where you are
Used the needle of your compass, to sew up your broken heart
Ask directions from a genie in a bottle of jim beam
And she lies to you
That's when you learn the truth



If you're goin' through hell keep on going
Don't slow down if you're scared don't show it
You might get out before the devil even knows you're there

I've been deep down in that darkness
I've been down to my last match
Felt a hundred different deamons breathin' fire down my back
And I knew that if I stumbled I'd fall right into the trap
That they were layin'

But the good news is there's angels everywhere out on the street
Holdin' out a hand to pull you back up on your feet
The one's that you've been draggin' for so long
You're on your knees might as well be prayin'
Guess what I'm sayin'


If you're goin' through hell keep on going
Don't slow down if you're scared don't show it
You might get out before the devil even knows you're there
When you're goin' through hell keep on movin'
Face that fire walk right through it
You might get out before the devil even knows you're there

If you're goin' through hell keep on going
Don't slow down if you're scared don't show it
You might get out before the devil even knows you're there
When you're goin' through hell keep on movin'
Face that fire walk right through it
You might get out before the devil even knows you're there
You might get out before the devil even knows you're there
Great song Reading,I bet that was a possible source of his words, or at least the advice he was given.

Yup our countenance means a lot does it not?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/10/12 09:42 AM
As per Caracal's orders - an update!

I'm sat at the gate at Heathrow waiting for a flight to India. Stayed at my pals in London last night. The four of us haven't stopped laughing since noon yesterday.

I've had the most stressful work week ever. But exciting times beckon.

I am so excited I might pop. Airports are the most exciting places I think.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/10/12 10:17 AM
Oooh, India!!! My feet just started itching again! It is next on my "have passport, will travel" list. That, along with Vietnam and Myanmar... yep, the list keeps getting longer.

Enjoy the anticipation Indie. Enjoy the trip, the friends, the differences of a world different to our own but still so much the same somehow.

And forget work. It will still be there when you get back. Somehow, that never changes.

Bon voyage, I am excited for you! Please post pics when you get a chance.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/11/12 06:58 AM
I will try!
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/11/12 07:20 AM
Bon Voyage Indie, enjoy your holiday. What a great post D treat! Looking forward to reading about your adventure.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/12/12 03:03 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I will try!

There is no try, only DOOOOO. HAve a great trip.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/13/12 03:23 PM
It's Diwali in Jaipur. Watching fireworks in the hotel garden. So great! When we arrived we thought this town was bonkers. Tonight they've gone super nova crazy. My kind of town.
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/14/12 03:20 AM
Cool!

(I am using flooding for your thread right now since the OW in my marriage is from India).
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/14/12 03:45 AM
hurray

Indie!!! Have fun and be safe!
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/14/12 08:49 AM
India is (scratch, scratch) now the top of my list. Damn these (scratch, scratch) itchy feet!

Have a super nova time!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/18/12 11:21 PM
So peoples, an update of sorts.

My solicitor wants another thousand pounds to sort the financial agreement. Even though we're now divorced we have to separate the finances properly and prevent future claims from ever coming up. Its peanuts compared to what the house is worth, but part of me still has that pre-divorce attitude going on. 'I never planned to pay for any of this! I shouldnt have to! I have already paid lots! But I will woman up and finish this thing.

Ive also joined two dating sites, Plenty of Fish and Match. Been on them a week. I'm going to do Dr H's 30 dates. I dont think I want much out of them really except a date, a chance to get my feet wet. So far, Ive had some good chats, some hilarious offers, but not a sign of a date..

Time will tell.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/19/12 03:59 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So peoples, an update of sorts.

My solicitor wants another thousand pounds to sort the financial agreement. Even though we're now divorced we have to separate the finances properly and prevent future claims from ever coming up. Its peanuts compared to what the house is worth, but part of me still has that pre-divorce attitude going on. 'I never planned to pay for any of this! I shouldnt have to! I have already paid lots! But I will woman up and finish this thing.

Ive also joined two dating sites, Plenty of Fish and Match. Been on them a week. I'm going to do Dr H's 30 dates. I dont think I want much out of them really except a date, a chance to get my feet wet. So far, Ive had some good chats, some hilarious offers, but not a sign of a date..

Time will tell.
Hope all goes well on the finances.

Have fun with the 30!! laugh
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/19/12 05:08 AM
Good luck with the financial agreement. The legal fees certainly suck but will be worth it if it protects you from future claims etc.

Good luck and have fun with the dates ... you'll have to give us an update
Posted By: Caracal Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/19/12 08:44 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So peoples, an update of sorts.

My solicitor wants another thousand pounds to sort the financial agreement. Even though we're now divorced we have to separate the finances properly and prevent future claims from ever coming up. Its peanuts compared to what the house is worth, but part of me still has that pre-divorce attitude going on. 'I never planned to pay for any of this! I shouldnt have to! I have already paid lots! But I will woman up and finish this thing.

Ive also joined two dating sites, Plenty of Fish and Match. Been on them a week. I'm going to do Dr H's 30 dates. I dont think I want much out of them really except a date, a chance to get my feet wet. So far, Ive had some good chats, some hilarious offers, but not a sign of a date..

Time will tell.
Indie, thanks for the update. It is always lovely to read your posts... I find them reassuring too. You and I seem to be approaching divorce the same way.

As for the 30 dates, I am wanting to do this too. I have had some dates. I am finally seeing what Dr H teaches so well... that EN's are so important, and the LB$ really works. Of course I knew this, but practicing it are too different things. I am struggling with a freeloader mentality... it doesn't come easy to me.

As for the offers...hilarious... Luckily, I am approaching this with a sense of humour. Anyone too serious would be eaten alive!!!
Posted By: Faithnomore Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/19/12 02:02 PM
What do you think about a nice TEMPORARY relationship with an umm younger man that serves just to put you in the scene and restore your confidence?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/19/12 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by Faithnomore
What do you think about a nice TEMPORARY relationship with an umm younger man that serves just to put you in the scene and restore your confidence?


Theres a few different ideas in there so I just need to seperate those out:

- nice, Well its nice to be nice smile

- temporary, It would be madness to get into anything permanent just now. the only thing I view as permanent is marriage!

- younger, Well my minimum age is 30 as I think women tend to be more mature and confidence is important to me. That said I am chatting with someone who is 27 who seems highly intelligent and quite grounded

- 'put you in the scene' , I think it is my job to do that!

- 'restore your confidence', Luckily there is zip wrong with my confidence and I am as cocky about how amazing I am as I ever was smile. I also think it would be quite dangerous to get your confidence from that sort of temporary source....
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/19/12 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Caracal
As for the 30 dates, I am wanting to do this too. I have had some dates. I am finally seeing what Dr H teaches so well... that EN's are so important, and the LB$ really works. Of course I knew this, but practicing it are too different things. I am struggling with a freeloader mentality... it doesn't come easy to me.

As for the offers...hilarious... Luckily, I am approaching this with a sense of humour. Anyone too serious would be eaten alive!!!


I don't know about you but I am having serious problems with the transition from married to single. For so long if a man said anything flirty to me, he was a sleaze. And of course I did not flirt, even though it was previously a natural skill for me. So I'm struggling with the culture change.

I'm seeing lots of pitfalls too. I'll make a deal with you. I am considering charting my dates (if I ever get one) on the D&R forum. I think it will help me organise my thoughts and might help others out too. Want to join me?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/19/12 06:19 PM
Sorry about the financial aspects you still have to deal with. Hopefully, you can get everything sorted out soon, so you can close this chapter of your life.

30 is your youngest age? WOW, even I would date someone about 28 and I am 4 years older than you, deary. wink Of course, this is just in my mind, since I am still married. I think it is more about where the person is in their life, so they can closely match yours. I guess it would be more about maturity.

Now, as far as the 30 dates goes, what if you really click with someone? You will consider seeing where that may take you, I hope.

I wish you well. You are an amazing, and beautiful woman, and any man would be lucky to snare you. hug
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/19/12 07:58 PM
wow, indie, dating! how exciting! and 30 is your lowest cutoff, eh? lucky you! if i were in the position of dating, my low end would be 50! imagine having to date old men?! i am so excited for you that i'm going to pop into R&D (or is it D&R?) to follow your new journey. i kinda feel it'll be like watching love actually (without the [censored] alan rickman/emma tompson part).
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/19/12 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
WOW, even I would date someone about 28 and I am 4 years older than you, deary. wink


I would if they were reasonably sensible. But I work with a lot of men in that age bracket and they are afraid of commitment and talk about turning 30 as though it is a huge DDay which is irritating. I'm getting lots of winks and messages from men my Dad's age AND I got a very disrespectful one from a teenager so you have to send a firm message out when setting out your age preferences.

Originally Posted by Letty
wow, indie, dating! how exciting! and 30 is your lowest cutoff, eh? lucky you! if i were in the position of dating, my low end would be 50! imagine having to date old men?! i am so excited for you that i'm going to pop into R&D (or is it D&R?) to follow your new journey. i kinda feel it'll be like watching love actually (without the [censored] alan rickman/emma tompson part).


Haha now I have to do it!
Posted By: Faithnomore Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/20/12 06:22 AM
Indie I like you blush
Well I am sure you are amazing and you are very young too. Of course you are not getting your confidence just from dating but...What if you attract a MUCH younger sweet guy w/o even trying...lets say 13 years younger! OK I am talking about me I admit it wink
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/20/12 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Scotland
WOW, even I would date someone about 28 and I am 4 years older than you, deary. wink


I'm getting lots of winks and messages from men my Dad's age

tl referred to this as the grandpa brigade. smile I think whenever I am in position and an ready.....I might go with the +10/-10.....but then again, I am old.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/21/12 01:21 AM
Indie you are a true MB success. Have fun dating, armed with your MB knowledge you will find the right partner (when your ready) and go onto a happy succesful romantic relationship. The world is your oyster, I'll certainly follow your journey ... what an inspiration.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/23/12 11:34 PM
Oh I broke Plan B big time.

I knew he might be home for Christmas. That he might come here. He will have known that tomorrow night I'd be at my parents for Christmas Eve.

And though I thought I had a plan, I STILL opened the door tonight, and when it was him..I talked to him!

He was talking utter garbage, about needing to talk sometime, about closing a book, and not being able to move on. He wouldn't utter a word of sense, probably couldn't. Oh and he's still denying ever having had an affair. I said then we absolutely had nothing to talk about.

I said it was disregarding my wishes to come round. I must have asked him to leave ten times. I told him I didn't feel anything for him anymore and he was too late. He said we would need to talk sometime. I said that would never happen. He then said it had taken him a long time to come around and I said it really didn't matter any more. I ended up having to close the door on him. Of course he wasn't going to go away voluntarily. He made some sarcastic remark as I did so. It's 11pm at night, I am nothing to him any more yet he thinks he has an endless right to my time..

Then I cried in a way I haven't done for over a year.

Not only have I caused myself renewed pain, but I've egged him on to try and break Plan B again.

So I need to get tougher and reinforce it after this mistake. Do I ignore all the more diligently and become more silent? Or do get my IM to send him something? Perhaps threaten a restraining order?

My nerves are too jangled to know right now.

Oh and I could not have looked worse!!

I am wearing brightly coloured slipper boots, old pyjamas, a tatty grey hoodie and my hair is all crazy. I'm covered in icing sugar from making my gingerbread house.

I just told my friend this on the phone and she said: "Do you care?" And honestly, no I don't (surprisingly), I just found it strange he could look at me so seriously, anyone else would have burst out laughing.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/23/12 11:50 PM
There need be no more documentation for his lack of stature in your new life than this, my friend:

Divorce final Sep 2012

Shame on him, ig, for trying to re-animate the dead, like some Frankenstein-inspired meddler in things beyond his reach.

For your own well-being, I would expect you know that this should be your first, and only, reaction to his arrival:

I ended up having to close the door on him.

I hope you can navigate past this quickly and still enjoy your Holidays!
Posted By: Letty Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/23/12 11:55 PM
indie, i was so worried that you found him IN your house, then i realised he was at the door.

i'm sorry this happened. i can't believe he still denied the a. paraphrased from love actually: (opens door) "here's indie's ex, and he's a big KNOB!"

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/23/12 11:57 PM
Thanks NG. We still have to finalise financial stuff which he used as a pathetic excuse for talking...
But you're right I just have to keep this door closed.
Posted By: workit Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/24/12 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Oh and I could not have looked worse!!

I am wearing brightly coloured slipper boots, old pyjamas, a tatty grey hoodie and my hair is all crazy. I'm covered in icing sugar from making my gingerbread house.

I just told my friend this on the phone and she said: "Do you care?" And honestly, no I don't (surprisingly), I just found it strange he could look at me so seriously, anyone else would have burst out laughing.

Well on a lighter note, what a great visual you painted for us! You will be just fine girl!
Hit close to home for me, as I'm home alone for the first time without my kiddos for the holidays, baking cookies!
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/24/12 12:19 AM
I would not have IM restate anything.



Silence is golden and etc.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/24/12 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by workit
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Oh and I could not have looked worse!!

I am wearing brightly coloured slipper boots, old pyjamas, a tatty grey hoodie and my hair is all crazy. I'm covered in icing sugar from making my gingerbread house.

I just told my friend this on the phone and she said: "Do you care?" And honestly, no I don't (surprisingly), I just found it strange he could look at me so seriously, anyone else would have burst out laughing.

Well on a lighter note, what a great visual you painted for us! You will be just fine girl!
Hit close to home for me, as I'm home alone for the first time without my kiddos for the holidays, baking cookies!

I did say him: "My gingerbread house and the gifts I have to wrap are waaay more important than whatever this is all about"

Need to learn to keep my smartmouth shut!

Originally Posted by reading
Silence is golden and etc.


Indeed.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/24/12 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by Letty
indie, i was so worried that you found him IN your house, then i realised he was at the door.

i'm sorry this happened. i can't believe he still denied the a. paraphrased from love actually: (opens door) "here's indie's ex, and he's a big KNOB!"



Hahahaha. Brilliant!
Sorry Indie. It's amazing how strong their denial can be...

But you are stronger still.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/24/12 02:08 AM
hug

What rotten timing, but he knew that.

As I was reading, I was like, "Close the door". Then, I read that you did close the door, and I was happier.

When a Plan B break happens, it affects you so much, because Plan B helps protect you so well. It really works. So instead of beating yourself up about what you should have said/done, just get yourself into the protection of Plan B again.

You know that this is a temporary blip, and you will feel stronger in no time.
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/24/12 03:33 AM
I'm sorry Indie you had to face this right on Christmas.

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself ... you did close the door on him!

You have shown strength of character and you will rise above this and find sanctury back in Plan B.
hug

Muphys Law - we unexpectedly see people we know when we are not looking our best! Its good you didn't really care.
Posted By: kerala Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/24/12 08:40 PM
What an ###hole.

Stay strong.
Posted By: Faithnomore Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/26/12 11:29 PM
Indie he is just another as..@ you know that. You don't need another one like this in your life. It's not a profound weakness to feel sad. I would embrace this sadness for one last time...and then move on. They are incapable of true love but WE are not.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/27/12 03:27 AM
I read most of your thread, keep strong and follow your plan. Also god bless you for helping others on this site. Everytime I log on I see your name recently commenting on threads. Keep it up your are a inspiration to me!
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/27/12 04:52 AM
Yes Indie.......I love your insight on things. You are a gifted writer and a MarriageBuilder member who 'gets' it.

You are an inspiration to me too.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/27/12 08:59 PM
Ah thanks guys. I've just started a thread on the D&R forum now...
Posted By: unwritten Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/28/12 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Softlad is a dxxm fool. Just sayin.

Just wanted to reiterate...

Hope that door in the face was enough 'closure.'

Now on to bigger and better things dear Indie! Good luck in the D&R thread (although I think you have the 'R' under control).
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 12/29/12 01:01 PM
Haha, thanks UW
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/11/13 03:48 AM
ig, I have a book to recommend to you: Strategy, by Capt Basil H. Liddel Hart.

I have a copy of the second edition, 1954. Knowing how you've absorbed and used the Sun-Tsu writings, this might be of interest to you. The lessons that can be drawn from his analysis of the "indirect" attack line up perfectly with the basis behind the principle of "exposure"!
Posted By: Viper Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/11/13 04:01 AM
Just ordered it myself with a few others I had in my Amazon cart. Thanks for the suggestion.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 01/11/13 01:41 PM
Thanks NG
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/07/14 06:08 PM
I have to share this news here, because everyone was so supportive when I first mentioned wanting to become a teacher.

Remember this in 2011?

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Arghhhh. My Plan B refuses to twinkle and sparkle in the impressive way I want it to sometimes.

I have been turned down by every college I applied to train as a teacher with. One didn't even bother replying. The one I interviewed for said I showed 'impressive oral and written communication skills' but that I needed to improve my knowledge regarding 'teaching and learning' and that I needed to improve the way I spoke about my teaching experience in schools.

I don't get it. I said SO MUCH about my time in schools, with detailed examples and everything. I have a top, first class English degree and seven years experience as journalist and I still don't make the cut simply to STUDY to become an English teacher? It sounds like they want me to know everything about the educational system before I even begin!

So do I apply next year? What do I do in the mean time?

I hate how competitive this recession has made every job post and college place.

Maybe it is one of Mortarman's walls. Imagine how competitive it would be to actually get a job if college places are this cut throat.

After going back to school at night to get my high school maths qualification upgraded, spending several weeks in schools getting teaching experience, then passing new English and maths tests the government have set for trainee teachers and practicing interview techniques with the boyfriend- I'm on a course!!!

A fantastic course with passionate professors.

I start in September, it's one year and most applicants have a job before the end. All of them did, last year.

I can't believe this post of mine was in 2011!! I really don't know how to give up.
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/07/14 06:13 PM
Like!!!

Persistence Pays Off, plus you took the necessary steps to improve yourself to become a more viable candidate.

LTL
Posted By: kerala Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/07/14 07:22 PM
That's great Indie.

Congratulations.
Originally Posted by indiegirl
I start in September, it's one year and most applicants have a job before the end. All of them did, last year.

I can't believe this post of mine was in 2011!! I really don't know how to give up.
Talk about persistence, fantastic news indiegirl!
Posted By: Neak Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/08/14 03:29 AM
hurray
Posted By: happyfuture66 Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/08/14 03:35 AM
What an awesome update Indie. It's wonderful you didn't give up on your dream. Good luck with the course ... what a great MB success story! hurray
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/08/14 03:39 AM
Way to go indie!!! hurray
Posted By: HealingGrace Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/08/14 02:29 PM
hurray dance2 hurray
Happy for you, Indie. I've read through much of your thread - you're going to have a wonderful, fulfilling life!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/10/14 02:03 PM
Thank you everybody, I am VERY excited.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/10/14 02:21 PM
So Great to hear!!! Congrats my friend ... you will be an amazing role model providing your students with knowledge that will not only help them thrive, but also providing them a foundation to happiness!!
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/10/14 04:28 PM
Wonderful news IG, Congrats!
Posted By: armymama Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 03/10/14 06:22 PM
Indie,

You will be excellent in this new career! Congratulations!

AM
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/13/15 02:22 PM
So surely, if this police force is handing out these notices like candy, you can simply go get one preventing OM from talking to WW.

Simples!
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 04/13/15 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So surely, if this police force is handing out these notices like candy, you can simply go get one preventing OM from talking to WW.

Simples!

Indie,

I think you wanted this comment to pist in DingDong's thread.

LTL
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/24/15 12:15 PM
Peeps,


I've just been offered the most incredible new job teaching English to young people on apprenticeships - tomorrow's journalists and web developers. We are partnered with some of the best news and computing firms in the world.


It is because of the advice I received here. I was broke and hopeless, couldn't even afford a lawyer and now I'm thriving, personally and professionally.

Thanks MB!

Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/24/15 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by LearnedTooLate
Originally Posted by indiegirl
So surely, if this police force is handing out these notices like candy, you can simply go get one preventing OM from talking to WW.

Simples!

Indie,

I think you wanted this comment to pist in DingDong's thread.

LTL


Lol, so I did!
Posted By: living_well Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/24/15 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Peeps,


I've just been offered the most incredible new job teaching English to young people on apprenticeships - tomorrow's journalists and web developers. We are partnered with some of the best news and computing firms in the world.


It is because of the advice I received here. I was broke and hopeless, couldn't even afford a lawyer and now I'm thriving, personally and professionally.

Thanks MB!


You are going to be an incredibly fine teacher. You have unusual clarity in both your thought processes and your writing style. Best of luck to you!
Originally Posted by indiegirl
It is because of the advice I received here. I was broke and hopeless, couldn't even afford a lawyer and now I'm thriving, personally and professionally.
Yay Indie! It's obvious that they chose the perfect person for the job. When do you start?

And THANK YOU for all that you do here, sharing your experience and offering support. It is much appreciated.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/24/15 02:08 PM
Congratulations, indie!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/24/15 04:28 PM
Thankyou!

Originally Posted by living_well
You have unusual clarity in both your thought processes and your writing style. Best of luck to you!


Awww thanks LW - yet I put my keys in the laundry this morning... think
Posted By: living_well Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/24/15 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Thankyou!

Originally Posted by living_well
You have unusual clarity in both your thought processes and your writing style. Best of luck to you!


Awww thanks LW - yet I put my keys in the laundry this morning... think


Oops :-)
Posted By: luna_alpha Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/24/15 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Peeps,


I've just been offered the most incredible new job teaching English to young people on apprenticeships - tomorrow's journalists and web developers. We are partnered with some of the best news and computing firms in the world.


It is because of the advice I received here. I was broke and hopeless, couldn't even afford a lawyer and now I'm thriving, personally and professionally.

Thanks MB!

Congrats!! That is awesome! I don't know how you have the time to do all that you do. You are so generous here, and obviously not neglecting yourself either! Good for you!! hurray clap
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/24/15 06:46 PM
Congratulations!!!
Posted By: Nerlycrzy Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/24/15 06:52 PM
Congratulations, indie!

But your employers got really lucky by hiring the BEST! hurray
Posted By: PoppyNJ Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/24/15 07:39 PM
Congratulations!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/24/15 11:44 PM
Congratulations, Indiegirl!
Posted By: PigletWiglet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/25/15 01:04 AM
Yeay!!!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 05/25/15 09:19 PM
You lot are the best smile

Posted By: Gave2Much Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 06/06/15 02:46 AM
Indie, Congratulations on the fantastic progress in your work and also in your personal life!

I've been going slowly through your thread, you've shown great humour and patience through it all, I'm learning alot.

You have offered some of the best advice on my situation, I'm beginning to see many similarities in the personalities of our H/WH, except in my case there's no adultery that I know of (so far) and I have two children who need both parents.

I'm on my own long journey and reading about yours has helped so much.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/06/15 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by Gave2Much
Indie, Congratulations on the fantastic progress in your work and also in your personal life!

I've been going slowly through your thread, you've shown great humour and patience through it all, I'm learning alot.

You have offered some of the best advice on my situation, I'm beginning to see many similarities in the personalities of our H/WH, except in my case there's no adultery that I know of (so far) and I have two children who need both parents.

I'm on my own long journey and reading about yours has helped so much.


Gave, the behaviour I described in my thread is very, very specifically wayward. The abuse and gaslighting was all about protecting his affair. He did have some pre-existing IB but he never controlled or abused me pre-affair - he was just stubborn about his independence.

If you see similarities with your husband I would get a PI on the job because affair behaviour is very similar and eerily recognizable. I know you're about ready to drop but he is still your children's father and you need to know what he might expose them to.

It's been my experience with other Plan Bers that though children are better off with two responsible parents, they need an irresponsible parent like they need a hole in the head. If you are concerned about your husband's character, check him out thoroughly and get good legal advice.

Posted By: PigletWiglet Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 07/06/15 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
[quote=Gave2Much]

Gave, the behaviour I described in my thread is very, very specifically wayward. The abuse and gaslighting was all about protecting his affair. He did have some pre-existing IB but he never controlled or abused me pre-affair - he was just stubborn about his independence.

This seems to be very true of many WH's on these boards. Although in my own situation, he could be abusive to me in order to protect his IB. I'd say he'd threaten to divorce me and use abusive language about once a year. For example, I caught a secret credit card he opened up. He threaten to leave when I was 8 months pregnant because I was upset about that.


Originally Posted by indiegirl
[quote=Gave2Much]
It's been my experience with other Plan Bers that though children are better off with two responsible parents, they need an irresponsible parent like they need a hole in the head. If you are concerned about your husband's character, check him out thoroughly and get good legal advice.

Yes, get them away as much and as soon as possible if you suspect neglect or abuse in favor of an affair.
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 09/26/15 05:17 PM
Miss you and your words indiegirlfriend!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/11/15 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by DidntQuit
Miss you and your words indiegirlfriend!
kiss
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/11/15 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by DidntQuit
Miss you and your words indiegirlfriend!
kiss
Welcome back!! Any updates?
Posted By: Alada Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/11/15 04:56 PM
It's so nice to read you again, glad you are back! Please know that you are appreciated by many here!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/28/15 10:06 AM
Aw thanks!

Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by DidntQuit
Miss you and your words indiegirlfriend!
kiss
Welcome back!! Any updates?


No, not really Brainy. A friends text just asked the same thing (nobody has seen me all term) and I said not unless you are interested in how I mark books!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/28/15 05:23 PM
Are you still enjoying teaching?

Are you still with your boyfriend?
Posted By: reading Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/29/15 02:21 AM
Hey Indie!
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/29/15 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Are you still enjoying teaching?

Are you still with your boyfriend?


Yes to both!

Hey you too, R smile


Posted By: TheLongRun Re: Independent behaviour nightmare!! - 11/30/15 05:40 AM
Happy Thankgiving, Indiegirl. Glad to hear you're doing well.

Thank you for your words of insight and your help here.
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