Love-Conditional?? - Marriage Builders® Forums

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On the thread, "Dating, what to look for", we have had a couple of discussions on love and whether it is conditional or unconditonal. I guess I would like to hear everybodys thoughts on this. Check pg 3&4 for a few opinions...any one else want to tackle this??------------------ Susan

{{{Sue}}}Is it possible love can be conditional and unconditional at the same time??We can love someone in a "conditional" way. Look at how our marriages fell apart. In a way, needs are a condition. When the needs are not met, the door opens for the affair. Those of us that tried plan A, know that in a way, you have to meet all these needs, five of the most important (aren't those conditions) to have a strong marriage.Yet, at the same time, we can love someone unconditionally too. When you first fall in love, its so scary and new but you do love in an unconditional way. Sure that person may not have everything you'd have hoped for (see the post what are you looking for next time around), and hey, we are all only human and no one is perfect. But we CAN fall in love with someone that is perfect to us. Unconditional love is what Christopher and Dana Reeves have. THere is an example of true love unconditionally.Maybe we're just seperating it too much and there is going to be a mix of a little of both.I can say I recently felt I loved conditionally AND unconditionally at the same time. Unfortunately I fell into it to quick and now I wind up being hurt. BUT, once again, I learned a lot and I'll get thru it.Hugs and prayers,Dana

I think that all love is conditional. The closest one can get is the love of a parent for a child, but even that can be conditional.The litmus test for me is "Is there anything that this person could do that is unforgivable to me?" There will always be something in my mind where that is the case. Even with my children.

I disagree. There is certainly nothing any of my children could possibly do that would make me stop loving them. Even if they were to become serial killers, I would still love them - I probably wouldn't want to live in the same house with them, but I would still love them. And similarly, nothing my H does could make me stop loving him, because the crueler he is, the more I know that that is not the real him, that it is addiction/depression.

I think real love is unconditional. That is how I differentiated my feelings for my wife vs earlier girlfriends. However, you have to make sure that both partners feel the same. Apparantly, She did not and now I am left still loving her but alone. Despite her cruelties and affair. I know I couldnt take her back without serious counseling on her part and as a couple. But yet I would be willing. I loved her and helped her thru her alcoholism and self mutilation. I feel sad for her that she will never understand what unconditional love is, or that she had it in her hands and threw it away.

ALL LOVE IS CONDITIONAL!This doesn't mean that we aren't showing unconditional love, it just means that if the other person turns on us consistently for a long enough period of time, the love will be gone.This can happen with children toward parents, spouse to spouses, but least frequently parent to child.It is the amount and frequency of the hurt in each relationship that determines the end of the love, and since wach situation is different, the amount of hurt required to break the love is different.nothing is absolute, (except death and taxes) and we are all replaceable. thl

Thl, I tend to see it the same way as you....people make conscious decisions in thier lives, unfortunately we sometimes hurt the ones we love the most. We take each other for granted, stop doing those "little things" that we so freely do in the beginning of a relationship, and one of the parties begins to doubt their feelings for the other. Only when we have met the other persons needs, only when we have made the marriage the complete priority it deserves to be, can we then begin to see that "unconditional" love. And that takes the test of time. Dana posted about Christopher Reeves and his wife. That could be a showing of unconditional love, I believe. But I am sure that they built their relationship to that point. They did not give the other person any reason to doubt them. That is the ugly thing about affairs. The trust is broken, you doubt everything about them, and, I believe, even make up excuses for them. While I do think that the beginnings of an affair can be an addiction, there must come a time where the WS must own up to the fact that they are responsible for their own actions. ------------------ Susan

I do believe the only irrevocable unconditional love one has is a parent for a child, and (on a different level,) a child has for a parent.Unconditional love to me means that no matter what that person does to you or how they behave in the world, you would love them and continue to fuel that emotional connection we call love.This means that if they physically abuse us, or are serial killers, we would physically distance ourselves from them, we would abhor and condone their behaviour and seek that they accept whatever are the consequences as meted out by society for ther actions, but we would not be able to emotionally detach ourselves from them. No matter what, we would still love them but abhor their behaviour.In a marriage where you came together "in Love" (unlike being born to a parent or giving birth to a child) by being attracted to each other due to a multitude of reasons and accepted the spouse with the faults they had...that you knew about, but when treated with contempt, disrespect and hatred, you (or at least I) can fall out of love in terms of the marriage. How much each person takes in terms of "falling out of love" depends on the individuals and their relationship.After all our spouses or X's had no trouble falling out of love with us.... but I guess no matter what our individual circumstances, most of us (especially with children) will always love some part of the X (i.e. the person they used to be) but love of who the person has become is not someone we can all love. That is why I feel love in a marraige is conditional in most of our cases.This is just my perspective.

If conditional love does not exist and the only real love is unconditional, why are we here trying to save our marriages and following this plan to "Restore love into our marriages?" Wouldn't that then be impossible ? We're here because love is conditional.

GSD, I tend to agree with you here. Love for spouses is conditional, and renewing that love is hard work, because it means you must meet their needs. Hopefully if you do, they will recriprocate by meeting yours. So many marriages fail because either we do not take the time to meet thoses needs, or possibly don't even know them well, because of poor communication in the marriage. ------------------ Susan

Nellie1,I feel exactly the same way as you. To others, The reason why this website is here (IMHO), is because unconditional love is extremely difficult and maybe impossible for alot of people. Most people don't even make an attempt at it. Other cultures have much different expectations than Americans do about marriage, and that is reflected in our very high divorce rate. I heard an interview this morning on NPR describing America as being a very adolescent culture. We want what we want, when we want it. We invented fast food, huge cars, and disposable everything. It is no surprise that we have such unrealistic expectations of marriage. No one person can possibly meet all of our needs. That is where "unconditional" love and commitment has to be present. Unfortunately, those things are not fun and exciting.One more thing... if we are all replaceable, then there really is no point in marriage. It does say "till death do us part" and "for better or worse", folks. If "worse" to you means you tolerate the toothpaste tube being squeezed at the top instead of the bottom, or "till death do us part" REALLY means "till I don't feel like it anymore", then either change your vows to reflect your true level of commitment or don't bother to get married. Cause it's just messing things up and skewing the statistics for people who really do believe those words.

TS,I think you hit the nail right on the head. Our society no longer wants to work to have it better than our parents. We DEMAND it, we deserves respect whether we have done anything or not and if you don't give it to me, I'll physically harm you.If you don't love me like I want to be loved, I will drop you and find someone else even if we are married, after all I deserve happiness.Bob

I guess I don't hold much meaning for marriage vows,either.For most marriages,they're just a bunch of words.Like Student said,maybe we need to change the vows in this country. Such as"For better or until something better comes along",or,"Until divorce do we part". Even our parents didn't have totally unconditional love,but at least they believed in their vows,and stuck together. "When she said"I do",I should of said,"With who?" ~~~~Rodney Dangerfield ~~Murph

Ok, I am getting what you guys are saying... Here is another perspective. If marriage is to be forever, and a lot of people are married till death, is it because of a strong conviction to their vows, and regardless of how they are treated in the marriage they will stay, or is it because these people have tuned in to how to keep their marriages happy and are doing the things that Dr. H says will keep the love alive?? Personally, if I cannot be in a relationship where there is trust, affection, a true sharing, I am not sure I want to be there all my life. If I am always wondering if this person loves me, if I was to be beaten, browbeated, ignored, treated like s***, I do not think there is any unconditional love that would make me stay. It is a matter of mutual respect for each other, and the commitment that makes a good marriage. If we had loving parents, this is what they had. Thay may have had issues, and problems, but they had what it takes to work it out, try to meet the others needs, and go on. ------------------ Susan

When divorce happens, any opportunity for change or unconditional love is totally gone and the years spent with that person are completely thrown out the window. My parents have been married for almost 37 years. I know for a fact that many of those years were not loving at all. They separated for awhile, did their own thing for awhile, but divorce was never an option. When they figured out their own personal issues, they came back together in a "true" sense. That was over 15 years ago. They have a marriage that is rock-solid and very happy now. I can't imagine any better way to experience life than with the stability of knowing that another person will be there through all of the trials of life, no matter WHAT they are. How crappy is it to feel like you are always on trial, and being evaluated every day to make sure you are still the "one". How can anyone feel safe that way?

I think Dana is right about this: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Is it possible love can be conditional and unconditional at the same time?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This reminds me of the whole 'nature vs nurture' idea. Is who we are determined at birth or is it the result of our environment growing up. Scientists are proving over and over again that there is a little of both going on. We have certain traits that are determined at birth via genetics. I think the same concept is probably true with love. There is a certain amount that is unconditional and a certain amount that is conditional. I think they both have to be there for a marriage to be healthy and happy.

TheStudent, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>How crappy is it to feel like you are always on trial, and being evaluated every day to make sure you are still the "one". How can anyone feel safe that way?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is why I can not imagine ever having another relationship, knowing that there is no way to tell if your spouse is one of the few who are capable of unconditional love, or if in fact you are going to be on trial for the rest of your life. I have learned from this experience that with many people it is essential that no matter how badly they treat you, you be infinitely patient, never get upset about anything, never ask for anything, provide complete financial security, and most of all be able to read their minds. Anything less and they feel justified in having an affair and deserting you.

I think adults make love unconditional! Watch kids, they get mad, hurt and come right back having forgotten what happened.They just love us!

Two months before my husband left, he made a huge production (an evening at the beach) to tell me that he had thought about leaving, but then realized that it would be wrong and that the security of knowing that he would never leave was important for me to be able to meet his needs and not be scared. We both needed to feel safe in order to work out our problems. He promised that he would not leave no matter what. I guess he changed his mind.

You're right; the committment to stay together, to honor your love, and to work it out should be unconditional. I would still love my husband if he did something terrible, but I would not be in love with him. The simple fact that we are discussing the conditions under which he fell out of love is proof that love is conditional. The kind of love that sustains marriages, romantic love, is highly conditional. Interesting note and side-bar question: my husband and I had a conversation about this the other day. He said that "our love has always had conditions. For example, I've always wondered why I've been afraid for you to get fat." WHAT THE HECK DID THAT MEAN?? Any takers?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sue: On the thread, "Dating, what to look for", we have had a couple of discussions on love and whether it is conditional or unconditonal. I guess I would like to hear everybodys thoughts on this. Check pg 3&4 for a few opinions...any one else want to tackle this??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Because the English language has only one word for the many facets of love, we have to use other words to qualify the word love. In Greek there are four words for love:agape (unconditional), phileo(brotherly), starge (don't know?), eros(erotic, sexual). The one that stands the test of time is unconditional and is exhibited by those who are born of the Spirit. ------------------ God Bless, Rob regilmor@swbell.net

Interesting topic....Steve Harley explained to me what he means by "in love". They are talking about "romantic" love being conditional, the principles they espose are intended to reignite those "in love" feelings. So when the spouce says they "love" you but are not "in love" this is what they are feeling. The reality is that alot of people lose that "romantic"feeling and say F-it it's over. What they fail to see is that with some effort those "romantic" feelings can return. The book <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html" TARGET=_blank>"Love Busters"</A> by Dr. Willard Harley, explains in lay-terms how this works. In my situation my STBX decided it wasn't worth it. I did what I could then realised that she isn't comming back. My unconditional became conditional. She killed all "romantic" feelings I had.TheStudent and Nellie, I love you two (in the brotherly fashion) but I think you are both very hard on yourselves. I believe you will get past the bitterness and find someone you can share your lives with. I don't think we were put on this earth to be alone without a mate.As for the wedding vows....well...that is a whole other thread. I think most of us take them very seriously, however, after we have been run through the ringer we tend to devalue them...I know that in my next relationship I will try to keep that "romantic" spark going, and I think with some good communication my partner will too.I am of the opinion that that the only true unconditional love is between God and His sinful children and a mother and her child. Bill------------------ May the roads rise to meet you, May the winds always be at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields, And until we meet again, May god hold you In the hollow of his hand.[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited August 05, 2000).]

Bill, "I believe you will get past the bitterness and find someone you can share your lives with."I would like to get past the bitterness, because it does make my day-to-day life harder than it needs to be. However, the term -share my life with someone-- well, it is not bitterness that makes me say "I don't think so". It is blatantly obvious that most people don't have what it takes to make a life-time commitment. The ones that do are still married. The reason why most people (i.e. most Americans, mainly) ditch when those romantic feelings fade is because our expectations of marriage are completely unrealistic. We also happen to be incredibly spoiled, as a culture. Try as hard as you might, Bill, you are going to make mistakes in the next marriage too. That is just how it is. It is human nature. We are not perfect. I truly hope you don't find another spouse who ditches as soon as they don't "feel like it" anymore.Romantic love is not love. It is hormones. It is only when "romantic" love fades, does one find out if "true love" really exists. Romantic love makes marriages easier and even fun. I'm all for trying to keep romance in a marriage, but that is not what keeps marriages together, IMO. In both of cases, my ex's did not love me. I wasted 10 yrs of my energy on two men who were not capable of loving me in return. That makes me very, very sad. "...love is the will to extend oneself for the purpose of nurturing one's own and another's spiritual growth. Genuine love is volitional rather than emotional. The person who truly loves does so because of a decision to love. This person has made a commitment to be loving whether or not the loving feeling is present. If it is, so much the better; but if it isn't, the commitment to love, the will to love, still stands and is still exercised." I don't want another relationship. I will never again invest myself to the level I did with my marriages. Basically, I have made a decision not to "love" another man in the sense I have described above. Oh sure. There is no doubt I will have those warm fuzzy feelings for someone again, but I won't act on them because I have chosen not to love in that way anymore. Oh well. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited August 06, 2000).]

TheStudent,You are correct about the romantic love being hormones and true love being whats underneath it. And I have to agree about our fine culture throwing away the values of sacrifice, commitment and family.I look at my parents and grand parents. They put up with alot of bs for sometimes years but held on to those afformentioned values and found tha romantic love again after the kids were grown. The late generations are so self-centered they just cop out and run.Hang in there sister as I know you are.Bill------------------ May the roads rise to meet you, May the winds always be at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields, And until we meet again, May god hold you In the hollow of his hand.

It appears to me that those that believe in UNCONDITIONAL love are people who will take battering or other physical / emotional abuse from their spouses, and still remain in love with them. It is this fuzzy thinking that keeps people in bad relationships.For those who believe in CONDITIONAL love, one believes that one has enought self respect to be treated a certain way, or one will not stay in a relationship. Those who believe in UNCONDITIONAL love can be delusional, possibly thinking / justifying possible LBing, and then expect to stay in the relationship, without showing any responsibility for your actions.I am working very hard at teaching my 8 yo d about that concept just today. And I am being so hard on her to get her to understand it, but I cannot take her learned verbal dissent to me with the statements that even when I am an adult, my family will love me no matter what!I explained to her that you have to show love to get love, and if she thinks you can abuse friends and family and then ask them for help, she has more tough love learning to go. If she gives me more crap, in her room she goes, doors closed.WHAT ELSE does this show her? That one needs not take crap from a family member also. It shows her the RESULTS of her bad behavior, and very quickly, she started changing. And I will keep up the learning so that she does not believe that she can LB and still get what she wants.Sorry to break the bubble, but if you expect unconditional love, it allows your TAKER enormous latitudes without any repercussions or responsibilities for your actions.Remember, no one can abuse you without your permission.thl

WIFTT: I could write much here about this topic, but suffice to say I think you are mixing apples and oranges. You , IMHO, love your d unconditionally and always will, no matter what (see my previous post), no matter what you say. She can LB over and over, but you will continue to try to teach her the consequences of this negative behaviour....unconditional love means you will not walk away from her....and while you meet out the consequences, at this fragile time, please, please let her know that no matter what, you will always be there for her. You need to explain (as I did to my d) that with behaviour like that, she will not have friends, her brothers might not be there for her, etc etc, but I told her, and promised her, that I would not leave (she knows that her dad not only went off to OW but also from the "kids behaviour"...so she was petrified of being abandoned! She needed to know that no matter what, I would be here for her...and I am, but I also will not accept behaviour which is abusive or unacceptable!!!)It could also be that you d is testing your love for her.....if she behaves in a certain way that you do not like, then maybe you will leave her as you did to mom...(she is too young to understand the situation) but from her point of view...you do not love mom anymore so left....if she behaves in a certain way...and she will test you...she has to test if you will leave her too????Yes, your d must learn that certain behaviour is unacceptable and there are consequences for this, but at the same time, you love her unconditionally and need to demonstrate this. You also need to reinforce that you will always be there for her. I do not believe that a parent (or at least most responsible parents) will ever emotionally detach from a child...i.e. if you behave that way then I will stop loving you!!!! One can and sometimes needs to distance oneself physically/emotionally from an abusive child (and my children can be models at this!!!!),...this is tough love...but it does not negate your love. I know that I have had so much cr@p thrown at me by my kids especially through all this stuff, but I could not walk away emotionally. I have behaved in a way that makes sense for me, hopefully will allow them to understand the negative effects of abhorrent behaviour . I have distanced myself from one, I will not enable unacceptable behaviour or allow a false sense of entitlement to exist, but I will always keep an eye out for each and every one of my children....and will try to help them to become emotionally healthy, caring human beings....even if it means at a distance. I do not beleive that one can ever disassociate emotionally from a child, and therein is the unconditional love.The bottom line is no matter what they do I always will love them, NO MATTER WHAT. I do not even have to like who they are, never mind about disliking some of their behaviour.Your d is 8 and your son not as yet 13 so.... BEWARE THE TEENAGE YEARS!!!!!!! Have you been able to find a therapist for them as yet?How is your father????

Prof Org: Haven't seen you in a while, hope you are doing OK.Truth Seeker - ^5 (high 5) OK I'm jumping back in on this topic. Mainly because I didn't get much sleep and I need to keep awake!!!There are a lot of marriages that last until one spouse dies. There are still a good 50% of marriages that DON'T divorce. Too much emphasis is placed on "THE MARRIAGE" in general. Think about your everyday life. Most of us face a new struggle just as soon as we get past the old one. Life is a series of ups and downs. When we go thru a down time, that is the true test of the love within the marriage. I am amazed to say that I actually agree with TS on one point made, romantic love fades and then you get to the real love. However, thats the whole concept of the MB principles to keep the love alive. There are lots of ways after 10 or 20 years of marriage to do romantic things for each other. Men don't realize its those little things that make their women happy. Is that conditional of us? Maybe. Like THL said, we have our limits and expecations of how we want to be treated. I think a lot of us raised our standards after this affair disaster. Too many people do walk out of marriages because they think they found "something better". Or because this new person meets their needs better. Thats a problem within that person and could go back as far as childhood. Not necessarily a problem with marriage or love.I know some people don't want to go on again in love, relationships and marriage. That is a valid choice for many. But I do know A LOT of people who hav remarried and yes they have problems like the rest of us, but its not a result of the marriage, or their relationship, but of life itself. Call me a hopeless romantic or a ball of raging hormones, it won't offend me, but I'm keeping my belief that what happened to me, was meant to be. I thought I was happy but truly I was not. Yet I felt lonely and then I learned the reason for it (his affair). It is a constant struggle to accept the situation, and even face the fact that I am to blame in this situation as much as my ex is. I still think love can be conditional (just as in expecting to have your needs met, something I only recently learned) and unconditional (just as in a way, most of us still love our ex spouse deep down ). Think about the difference of "love" versus "in love". We are "in love" when our conditions are met. When our conditions(needs) go unmet, we don't actually stop loving. We just don't feel "in love" any longer. Maybe it is just that as we are all different people, different experiences , different backgrounds, that some of us were raised differently. Maybe some of us GIVE love conditionally, some GIVE it unconditionally and myself I think I give it both ways. I wonder also if that has to do with how we saw our parents marraige as a child??Dana

Dana, I lurk from time to time. Doing great! She is beginning to show me more affection with each new day. She is confiding in me when she has problems. She surprised me yesterday by sitting on face (I've been extremely horny lately, think I am going through a second puberty with my hormones in an uproar.)------------------ God Bless, Rob regilmor@swbell.net

WIFFT,Wilbok said: "you , IMHO, love your d unconditionally and always will, no matter what (see my previous post), no matter what you say. She can LB over and over, but you will continue to try to teach her the consequences of this negative behaviour....unconditional love means you will not walk away from her....and while you meet out the consequences, at this fragile time, please, please let her know that no matter what, you will always be there for her."Putting up with emotional/physical abuse is not love. If you let your d go out and steal cars, and then said "honey, it's ok", that would not be love. Willbok gave a good real-life description of how love is offered when someone does something you don't like or is harmful to themselves or others.

OK folks,I am discussing adult to adult relationships. I consider parent to child UNCONDITIONAL forever, as I think most people here would. So for most, if not all here, parent to child is UNCONDITIONAL, and therefore a moot point ot discuss.So, I move to discuss adult to adult relationships, only the oranges, not the apples of my life.thl

Hmm. That is where we differ. I AM talking about adult-to-adult relationships. If adult man/woman relationships are as conditional as you say, I want no part of it. I would rather live alone than in constant fear of abandonment if I wasn't perfectly meeting whatever friggin' needs they happen to have that day, week, month, year, or decade.Furthermore, I consider relationships with people who have this transactional type of viewpoint to be a complete waste of my time. There is no mutual growth, no real love. Maybe some feel-good h*mp for a few years, then when they have gotten everything they need from you, or get bored, they move on to the next "host" organism.

TS: I have read many of your posts and understand where you are coming from. Running away to a "new love" as in the case of infidelity (and I am not referring to you, but my H, Nellie's H and other WS described on this board) without dealing with whatever are the demons which chase one, is what this "conditional" love is. When your spouse turns EVERYTHING you believed in together...values, morals, way of life , parenting, etc. on its ear, then there is so much more to deal with on this topic. I loved my H unconditionally..... as I believed he loved me....until ow ,and all she stood for (in the gutter of life) became "his new mantra"I could have gotten over the affair....that is what unconditional love is...if my H had tried in some way to want the relationship, or if the affair was "only that" but in my case when all was wanted was for me to be a floormat to enable his omnipotence and lose my identity, it could not be.Furthermore I do believe in my marriage vows..but not at my total expense as to who I am...and all I believe in morally and valuewise. I would have to have given all of this up for the "new H" and this I could not do, which is why love in this respect is conditional...I will love you unconditionally, until you make my love for you conditional..to accepting all the new values over which I had no choice.....and so it came to pass....would I ever have thunk it...NO, but there you have it.

Willbok, I feel the same as you. I, too, would have taken my H back, and did, several times. But when he would not give up OW, he as well made my love conditional. I fell out of love for him. Could it have been rekindled?? Of course. Had we been able to work on our issues, and had BOTH committed, we could have worked it out. Student, I understand where you are coming from...but if we do not treat each other with understanding, with a true commitment to be honest and caring with each other, the oportunity for one or the other to stray is strong....does this mean one or the other has given up on the relationship??? NO!!! It is a clear sign to both that they need to work on their relationship. But when one chooses not to, the love the other has will someday die. You answered yourself..if you truly unconditionally love your X, you would take him back, right?? But what if he continued to carry on behind your back, lied to you, and treated you with no respect, would you still want to spend the rest of your life with him?? As strong a woman as I know you are, I cannot see anyone putting up with that in a marriage for very long and being happy. Your needs would not be met. You would be unhappy and would have to decide if you wanted to live your life that way. Sorry, I know I am a better person than how my X treated me. I deserve better, and will have better. I gave my X EVERY opportunity to try to save our marriage. It would not have been easy, but I cared about my vows strongly enough to want to try. But I refuse to be his doormat. He owes it to me and the marriage to be honest with me. If he is unhappy in the relationship, he must tell me, not go behind my back with another. He did not, and upon discovery, he still cold not be honest. Well, I take that back, perhap he was. He wanted out. So, he is out. I hope he finds the happiness he was missing with me. But it is a hell of a price to pay for everyone else.....------------------ Susan

Folks, Conditional love does not mean you abandon the relationship if one's spouse makes a mistake, or isn't perfect. Conditional is not black or white, but many shades of gray. People make mistakes, and people can forgive. However, the conditional part is that the mistake, or the hurt is continued at the expense of the other person. That condition, the continued existance of hurt or mistakes, without regard to the other person's point of view, or feelings, is where the conditions become acceptable or unacceptable.Unconditional to me is interpreted as black or white, it is either there or it isn't. And it is assumed to be there regardless of your LB, emotional abuse or physical abuse.Sorry, I don't buy it. If it was unconditional, a spouse could walk all over you and not file for divorce.gotta go, 8 yo d is up at midnight!thl

Good point WIFTT,I think TS does an excellent job of putting my fears into words. I'm at a point that fear is something I need to walk through. It is hard to ignore her concerns. God knows I have them.Bill

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Unconditional to me is interpreted as black or white, it is either there or it isn't. And it is assumed to be there regardless of your LB, emotional abuse or physical abuse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I know of several relationships that didn't work because of the LB's, emotional and physical abuse. The person who was on the receiving end of all that bad behavior decided not to live life that way, but the love for the abuser remained years later.It's very possible to still love someone, but for reasons of safety and emotional well-being, you just can't stay with them any longer.The love part is unconditional. But what you are willing to live with is not.

OK,So if a person is represented by their behavior not just their looks, then what is it that they loved? Was it an association that they made that they loved? ie, father figure or mother figure? Just the physical part?So in the case of the people who left and they still loved the abuser, how would you describe these people? Needy people who loved something because they needed or missed something? Or did they see that as their parenting example as a kid, and emulated it, but couldn't tolerate it?thl

The bad behavior was not the only thing that was shown. In the case of one very good friend of mine, she had been abused growing up and was following a pattern to a certain extent. But she saw something good in her abusive partner. She saw glimpses of a very deep thinker and connected on that level with him. She tolerated the abuse for years because she loved him and saw the good in him, and felt that he could and would someday change. However, he never got the help he needed to stop his bad behavior and she finally got to the point where she couldn't stay with him anymore. They divorced 3 years ago and to this day she says she still loves him. She still feels connected to him. But she will never take him back because she will no longer tolerate the abuse.[This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited August 08, 2000).]

Hi all, I thought more about this today. I believe that I love my ex unconditionally. However, there IS a point I would reach (even with my future children and my animals) beyond which I could not live with them. There are people who, for whatever reason, have completely shut themselves off from any love. They are so wrapped up in their destructiveness that they cause all around them to suffer. There are people who are so narcissistic, that they believe that the world exists to serve their needs, and all the love in the world is a drop in the bucket. They exist to suck others dry, and have little or nothing to offer in return. I think those cases are fairly rare. I can't think of a single person on this forum who blithely gave up their spouse. However, I think most divorces happen because of boredom, laziness, and lack of a certain level of "unconditional love".

TheStudent,I completely agree with you - I do not want to live with the fear of abandonment that necessarily follows if one believes that love is conditional. Of course there are cases, such as abuse, where one wouldn't want to live with someone they love, but that doesn't mean the love disappears.My teenage daughter was commenting tonight on how she couldn't understand why everytime anyone is angry at our 7 year old, she thinks that they don't love her anymore. I have heard the same thing from our 10 and 14 year olds - the 14 year old even admitted that, although he knows I want him to believe that I love him all the time, he doesn't really believe that I love him during the time that I am angry at him. Now that would be carrying conditional love to the extreme, if love came and went minute to minute.

But Nellie, You are living that,, right now...for whatever reason, your H did not feel you were meeting his needs, so he looked elsewhere.Is it right?? No!! Can it be fixed?? Yes, but only if both of you want to. Your X is in a state of denial right now..he has no idea of the havoc he is exposing all of you to. If he came back, would you trust again?? Would you do all you could to meet the needs he felt he had and you were not meeting?? Of course you would, because that is what would keep your marriage together. If he continued to have affairs, if he continued to treat you like he has been , I cannot imagine you would want that for the rest of your life. Youwould either live out your life very unhappy, or make changes. Hopefully he would recripricate. And that is where conditional love comes in. We must BOTH want to meet each others needs in order to keep love alive. That is what a good marriage is all about. No one is saying that if we don't watch our every move, someone will walk out on us, what we are saying is that IF you do not do those things to keep your love alive, as in mutual respect, caring, sharing, no LB, etc...your marriage will not either be what ity could be, or will not last. Remember, it is BOTH parties taking the policy of joint caring to the fullest that keeps marriages alive and growing. Believe me, it was hard for me to understand. But now I get it....it is just sad I had to go through all of this to get there.------------------ Susan

Hi Sue,I was driving home from a bday party last night. My grandparents have been married for 61 years! They married 6 weeks after they met, in that state of "giddiness" and he went off to war. I asked them about love and what they thought of this.Then on the way home, a janet jackson song came on that got me thinking too.I guess I'm going with my original answer that you can love both conditionally and unconditionally even within the same relationship.I believe I loved my ex unconditionally for many years. This by the fact that when he had drug relapses, I stuck by him, when he cheated, I gave him chances, when he treated me horrible, I loved him more, thinking it would change him. I honestly never thought much about it til now, but over the years, he changed into someone kind of mean, and physically , he changed to where I doubt I'd be attracted to him if we were to meet today. Yet I loved him. Is that unconditional? Or just being stupid, I can't decide.I started to be conditional when I came to MB. When I learned that it was ok for me to be treated well (well after I gave up Plan A) but that I had needs and they should be met. I do agree, those needs being met, are a condition, but if they are a condition of a good marriage, I have no problem meeting my man's needs no matter what they are, because it makes me happy to see him happy. Now if only I can find that man who will reciprocate and then I'll be all set!!!!I gotta stop thinking about all this when I'm not on the PC!!! Listening to the radio, is not helping! Dana

How about this,In the beginning, when your needs were being met, before the X changed, you may have thought your love was unconditional, but it is still conditional in that both needs were being met, and therefore it SEEMED unconditional. But it was the condition that your needs were being met.But over time, as your needs become neglected, the conditional part become more OBVIOUS. Before the conditions deteriorated, it was in the all green condition. As one's needs became neglected, the condition turned to yellow, caution, and here, one could think with more love, the condition will go back to green. However, a flaw in Harley's theory is that we DON'T change as we age.Here I think the aging process slowly changes a person towards more like their parents and their real self, and family of origin. These issues stem from learned behaviors and happenings in the family of origin about the same time in your FOO, ie. neglect at 40 in FOO, neglect at 40 in current marriage. Other examples, as in my case, the change as I aged was realizing that fulfilling my father's dream as an oil tanker captain was a waste of my mind, and was not what I was interested in. My change in my 30's to get an MBA and go into finance/stock trading, was totally opposite from what my dad wanted/even liked (but it was what my mom liked) This changed me into someone my wife's family of origin disliked, businessmen and dealing with money.This flaw in the logic covers part of the 10% of the population that even though Harley's EN can be met, there may be reasons why the couple's conditional love falls apart.So the conditional part is that one does not change VERY MUCH from the original person one marries. That is, one mellows with age and maturity, but fundamentally does not change.thl

I finally had some time to read through this thread.My thought regarding marriage is this:"What's love got to do with it"For me, it was my vows that kept me in my marriage. In the end, love had nothing to do with it. I did want to have a loving relationship and was trying to figure out how to get that through counseling etc. But it was my vows that kept me in my marriage for 13 years and I would still be in my marriage, if my x had not left me. I also think it was vows that kept past generations married forever not necessarily love. Sure, I think some had that, but many probably did not. I think the ones that had love, had figured out what it takes to keep that. And I think that is where all the advice comes in regarding meeting needs, etc.Sue asked "if marriage is to be forever, and a lot of people are married till death, is it because of a strong conviction to their vows ...? I believe the answer is yes. As to the topic of love:I also think the Student is right when she says that "romantic love fades and then you get to the real love". I hope that holds true in my current or next relationship. I will search for that. I will not give up on love.I also agree with Dana that we are "in love" when our conditions are met. When they are not, we don't actually stop loving, we just don't feel "in love" any longer.I do think when one is married they have to stay together through thick or thin. But, when we have hit the bottom, we must figure out how to get out of that rut, so the marriage does not end. It only takes one person to walk away from a marriage. So, that is when we need to figure out how to meet those persons needs so they do not walk. I do think if marriage is to survive the test of time, both people have to realize that marriage is work, romantic love fades, and it takes work to keep it together and take it to the next level. That is what I am looking for next time. The guy I am seeing believes this too. So, maybe there is hope for us. The Student said:"It is blatantly obvious that most people don't have what it takes to make a life-time commitment. The ones that do are still married." That holds true for the people who don't take their vows seriously. But, I think it is unfair to the one's who do take their vows seriously but had no choice in keeping their marriages together because the other one left them. Like me. [This message has been edited by 711 (edited August 10, 2000).]

"I guess I would like to hear everybodys thoughts on this."Here are mine:When I said the wedding vows, I was committing to unconditional love. I do not see how the traditional vows could be viewed otherwise. However, that does not mean unconditionally feeling the same way all of the time. It means maintaining good will (agape love) toward your partner regardless of the circumstances or offenses. It does not mean that you will never feel hurt or angry. It does mean that you will always want what is best for your mate.If you feel that your partner is constantly scrutinizing your behavior and just looking for a reason to criticize/condemn, you may feel that you are not unconditionally loved. You may feel abandoned...and the spouse may leave but that does not mean that you must choose to NOT love. You can still love the mate and pray for the mate. You can still practice the giving even though you recognize that the mate's conditional love will not work.That is where I am now. I am choosing to love and express love even though I do not feel loved by my mate. It is better to choose to love--to keep the vow to love and cherish until death. That is the love I expected from my mate when we said our vows and I am willing to do nothing less than that regardless of the circumstances.Responses?

mrb,And what you said gets back to my opinion that love is a decision, not a feeling. Romantic love is a feeling and not "real love", in my opinion. Real love is an act of will. 711, Part of my frustration is the fact that marriages can be ended so easily. One of the people can take their vows very seriously, even if they don't feel "in love" anymore. The other person can bail just because they don't feel "in love" and basically has no will to actually be loving. Anybody can be "in love". It takes a special kind of person to be loving in spite of the fact that they are not "in love" at the moment.

Susan,Shortly after my H left, I asked him whether or not I had always acted as if I loved him, and he said I had. It seems to me that if you know someone loves you, and you have needs that are not being met, it should be obvious that all you have to do is tell them and they would do their best to meet your needs. It seems to me from my H's statements that yes, in fact, it is true that no matter how hard you try, it is quite likely that nothing will be good enough. And you will have no warning.

TheStudent, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And what you said gets back to my opinion that love is a decision, not a feeling. Romantic love is a feeling and not "real love", in my opinion. Real love is an act of will.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Gary Smalley wrote a book about this...Steve Harley and I discussed this very point. IMHO...when our spouces, for whatever reason, decided to quit our marriages they left us open and vulnerable. I had to struggle filling this void in my life. I know some day I will decide to love someone, and will do the things necessary to maintain romantic love. I believe for a marriage to be fullfilling these two must go hand in hand, otherwise we get bored and drift apart. Once that happens it is a supreme struggle to get it back. I don't want to go there again.Bill

The Student: I see what you are saying. It is very frustrating that it is so easy to leave a marriage now. And, I agree, that we need to try to be loving even when are needs are not being met. That is where I failed. I was told to "work on my side of the street" for a while even if my x wasn't working his side of the street. That was hard to do. I could do it for only a short period of time and then would get angry that he wouldn't reciprocate. If I could go back in time, I would have tried harder. Now, I can only learn from my past mistakes and move on.Bill: I loved what you said in your post. Thanks! I am open and vulnerable. I do want romantic love. And, I do want to learn everything I can to get it and keep it next time.

And for those who had divorced for good reasons, but still claim to love the person, thereby making it unconditional, my response is:either the person is in love with the MEMORIES of the person in the past, ordoes not want to look at reality, or at least communicate that to the outside world. It can make it easier for them.Sue, how do you tell your kids that you don't love their dad anymore? or don't you?thl

WIFTT,Ok, what is reality? Finding someone new every 5,10,15 years? It is a reality that at least 50% of marriages fail. Over 75% of second (or multiple) marriages fail. And just why do you think that is? Do you think every person in that other 50% who is not divorced is blissfully happy every day of their lives? Obviously, they know something we don't. I have my parent's example. They've been married 36 years, and tell you for a plain fact, they couldn't stand each other for some of those years. Lived in separate states for about 3 yrs. at one point. Lucky for both of them, that they didn't give up on their marriage when their needs weren't being met. Guess what? After 36 years, they claim they are happier than they've ever been now. You think it was because they were perfect at meeting each other's needs? Hardly. The reason I still love my ex is not only because of memories. It is because I believe that a life-time together is more than just liking what they do all of the time. He was my family. I wouldn't abandon my sister or parents or dear friends. Don't get me wrong. There have been times when I've had a very hard time maintaining a relationship will all members of my family, but I never gave up on them and cut them out of my life. Maybe people who claim love is conditional just have a hard time forgiving, hold grudges, and think finding someone new will be the solution to their problems.

WIFTT,I am not in love with memories, either. I love my H. Just because he is suffering from depression or has undergone a "personality break" or whatever does not mean that I will stop loving him. People's basic personalities are established in very early childhood, probably even before birth, and do not change unless mental illness or addiction is involved. If you love someone, it is permanent. If it is conditional, then it is not love.

I love the man my husband was...with all his imperfections as a husband, father and best friend. Since his behaviour caused me to firm and state the boundaries under which these relationships needed to survive or be rewritten to continue ...FOR MY EMOTIONAL/Financial WELL BEING and for my children to a lesser extent, I guess I could state that I love him unconditionally(i.e. there is a connectedness....I pity who he is and abhor the ow and ALL she stands for), but will not be in a relationship with him in any way!!!Does that make sense???????

Wilbok,That does make sense to me. My mother separated from my dad when alcohol got the best of him and he refused to stop or get counseling. At that point, me and my sister were not talking to him either. My father had lost everything. My mother could have divorced him and noone would have blamed her. However, I do believe that thread of faith (which I call love) that she always had in him and he for her, is what ultimately helped pull him out. He has not touched alcohol in over 15 years, and is the best father I could ever ask for now. Maybe my parent's marriage is one in a million. However, I think most marriages have a trial-by-fire at some point. Most don't make it, not because of needs being met or not, but just that so many people don't have the will to see it through.

The student; I could have "waited this out" until the fog cleared or whatever, without a clear knowledge of whether there was anything to wait for or not, but I had to save myself too. In my case in addition to ow it was ALL ABOUT MONEY(which had always been a very important thing for H) So to enable his new life, I had to fund everything for the kids, give him a lot of money by writing off debts, giving him a holiday condo which he had been sneaking ow to (which I had purchased) In other 3words I should take care of kids (educational costs HUGE) etc etc while he spent on himself and ow his HUGE salary.This I could not do without the anger probably killing me...so I did sue for divorce and H has been fighting at every point financially not to pay for his kids etc. His games though for a year, where I paid and was the banker, thinking I would get his share paid has been a nightmare of evasion and legal wrangling, but I did get child support for 2 kids. This fighting for every penny not to pay for his "former family" I believe is his true colour coming through. I detest him for this. So even if one day ow is history, I could never forgive this aspect of who he is..............................nor would I ever want anything to do with him. Trust went with the affair and lies and continued to go as he continued to lie during the "reconciliation" period. The trust over the finance is much too large to ever forgive. I trusted him to provide for his family, not only is he choosing to fight this, but is lying in the process.......and our lawyers are therefore having a wonderful time.I am fortunate in that I will continue to fight legally until I have justice in this respect...for me and my children for the future. It is a principle, not a necessity and that is what it makes it so awful.