I posted this under Cheryls question- and I am really having a hard time with this (confused, sad and angry)<BR>ANY HELP?????<P>You know- I have really been struggling with the topic of this thread....<P>I am 30- my husband whom i have loved with all my heart and soul, has cheated on me for 5 years with over 8 different people, often several at once....<P>I am ending our marriage because of his adultery.<P>My problem is this too- am I supposed to pay for the next 30 to 40 years of my life now????????<P>It was HIS sin and decision to break our marriage vows, and I am divorcing him based on the fact that it is allowable in the scriptures and it isn't based on something like just money or differences in personalities- but now- <P>AM I TOO LIVE ALONE AND SINGLE AND LONELY FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE BECAUSE OF SIN THAT WAS COMMITTED AGAINST ME, WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT?????<P>How can this be?? Why am i to spend 30 years suffering consequences for his betrayal???<P>I am SOOO struggling with this....<P>Please advise??<P>TLFM<P>
I really, really do not want to answer this question for anyone except myself. So all I'm going to tell you is my own reasoning for my own situation, which isn't quite the same as yours. Basically, after almost 12 years of marriage my wife deserted me a year ago without discussion or warning or explanation, cut off all communication with me, and filed for divorce.<P>First, life isn't fair, and nobody ever said it would be. When I chose to love my wife and then commit myself to her, I did it unconditionally. I took a risk, and I did it voluntarily. I could have chosen never to love anyone, never to take any chances, and so lived "alone and single and lonely" all my life. But I didn't.<P>Second, I was happy in my marriage, at least for the first six years or so, before I fell into depression. All in all, I have received more blessings in my relatively short life (I'm 37) than many people ever experience in their entire lives. If the best years of my life are over, well, I really haven't a right to complain.<P>Third, I have come to believe that happiness derives primarily from integrity, not circumstance. Right now, I have my integrity, and I have my faith, and I have my love, and I even have my hope. (My wife may someday struggle out of the fog and come back to me.) What price would I have to pay to give up any of that? Next to that price, a life of relative isolation (I do, after all, have family and friends) doesn't seem so bad.<P>It helps that I am comfortable living by myself.<BR>
TLFM,<P>I am assuming that you are looking at your situation solely from a religious standpoint here. If I am incorrect, then I apologize about the direction I’m taking with my response.<P>I was also having some issues in regard to moving forward with my life following the divorce that I did not want. I had spoken with people prior to my wedding and understood God’ view of marriage, but really didn’t know his feelings of divorce. I asked advice of the pastor who performed my wedding and would like to share with you his response to me. Granted different religions have different beliefs, but just hearing these things from a man of the cloth made me feel better.<P>#1. God hates divorce, and intended for man to stay together for life.. Mark 10:2-9 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. 3And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? 4And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. 5And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.<P>#2. God knows there are times that one party in a marriage just decides not to do what is right, what do you do then? 1 Cor 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. 12But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases.<P>Basically what that all says is that if one of the two parties departs, the party left behind is under no further obligation. Once you are divorced, you are under no further biblical obligation with your spouse. <P><BR><P>------------------<BR><I>We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us.</I><P>~Joseph Campbell
I so feel for you today. You sound very hurt and frustrated, as you should be in your situation.<P>I wanted to post this link for you:<BR> <A HREF="http://oneplace.com/ministries/the_calvary_connection/Archives.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://oneplace.com/ministries/the_calvary_connection/Archives.asp</A> <P>If you go to the bottom of the page and listen to the (2) 1/2-hour installments of "Divorce: Who Can Remarry?" you might find some help. <P>There is so much out there about this topic. This is the BEST discussion I've heard regarding divorce and remarriage. I hope it helps.<P>The thing is: You have to listen to it today or tomorrow, because as each day goes by, it will be pushed off the list and unable to be downloaded.<P>Also, the best advice I've heard on looking thru scripture on a subject (and it may have been from this broadcast) is:<P><I><B>When you are looking thru the Bible on a topic, read ALL the scriptures concerning that given topic and after reading them all and with God's guidance, you should be able to understand what the Bible is saying.</I></B><P>I'd never really heard it put like that before, but it makes good sense to me.<P>Good luck any my prayers are with you,<BR>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited June 28, 2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mrs.O:<BR><B>There is so much out there about this topic. This is the BEST discussion I've heard regarding divorce and remarriage. I hope it helps.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I listened to the broadcasts, but it seems to me that the speaker glossed over some pretty crucial bits. For example, I don't recall him giving any sort of explanation for Jesus' statement that "anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32) or his peculiar statement immediately preceding it where he said that "anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes <I>her</I> to become an adulteress." (NIV, my emphasis).<P>Basically, the speaker went into a lot of detail about when divorce was legitimate, avoiding the hard questions (such as those involving cases of physical abuse), and then just outright stated that remarriage was permissible if the divorce was permissible.<P>I'm not convinced...<P>
Hey GnomeDePlume:<P>Matthew 5:32- But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, <I>except for the reason of sexual immorality</I>, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.<P>My reading of this and what I got from the broadcast regarding looking at ALL the scriptures, is that the reason of sexual immorality is <I>implied</I> in the second part of that verse. So it would mean:<P>"...and whoever marries a divorced woman <I>except for the reason of sexual immorality</I> commits adultery.<P>Now, I'm not re-writing scripture, because if you do take ALL the scriptures regarding divorce and remarriage, that is what I get from the <I>whole study</I> of this issue. If you take only one verse and don't look at the others, then you aren't looking at all that the Bible says about that issue.<P>In cases of abuse....the scripture doesn't say that that is a just cause for divorce. Jesus and the Bible only gave ONE reason for why divorce is permitted and why re-marriage under that reason is not adultry. He also said that if your unbelieving husband leaves you (adultry not even the reason), you are no longer bound. So if you are not longer bound, you would be free....to re-marry.<P>That's my take on it. But like you said, everyone has to decide and research this for themselves. I think this type of open discussion is good tho. <P>The main thing I got out of those broadcasts was that you do need to look at ALL the scriptures regarding an issue before you make up your mind. If you only take one or two verses, you would have incomplete information.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O
Thanks for your replies- I do infact, have even more that complicates things and wonder what you think about this aspect-<P>OK- he cheated, over and over adultery with ALOT of different people for more than two thirds of our marriage...<P>When I became aware of this- not from him, from one of his other women, in January (then the rest came out in March), I told him that it was over, I wanted a divorce, and that was final...<P>NOW- he has decided he loves me, he has turned to God, and is committing himself to me, HE SAYS, even after I divorce him- but the fact is- in my eyes, he broke our marriage vows already!<P>I am still planning to divorce him- because of his change of heart- am I supposed to, according to scripture, be bound to him forever with this???? Is that addressed? What have people been counseled? <P>This is such an unusual situation- one i've never heard of prior to mine, because it seems like most BS want reconciliation with the WS and that is NOT the case for me (hence my name)<P>Any insight??<P><BR>Thanks!<BR>
TLFM,<P>My best suggestion at this point would be to have a talk with a local clergy person to help answer some of your questions. Even you are not a member of a specific congregation, you should still be able to ask advice of someone from your religious denomination.<P>Since this is an area which is really important to you, I would turn to the experts. <P>Best of luck.
TLFM, I don't think anyone would challenge your <I>right</I> to a divorce. By just about anyone's standards, it's justified. I personally am not prepared to advise either for or against it, since I don't know enough about your situation. My only real advice is to go slow, no matter what course you choose.<P>Don't forget that another Biblical principle is forgiveness. If your husband is <I>truly</I> repentant, then I think you have to seriously consider what hardening your heart against him might mean for your spiritual (and psychological) condition. Not because you might be breaking some rule or other, but because those "rules" are made for our own well-being: nursing hatred is self-destructive.<P>Note that forgiveness does <I>not</I> mean allowing yourself to be treated like a doormat, and it does not mean excusing or enabling continued destructive behavior on your husband's part. I don't think you have any reason to trust your husband, and quite frankly, I think it would be very foolish for you to do so without considerable evidence, accumulated over a significant period of time.<P>You ask if you are "supposed to, according to scripture, be bound to him forever". I don't really think of it that way. Again, God's commands are given for our <I>own</I> good, not just because God has some arbitrary preference for his world to function according to some divine aesthetic. I personally believe that the permanency of Biblical marriage is as much an acknowledgement of the way things <I>are</I> as it is a description of the way things <I>ought</I> to be. The fact is, one way or another, you <I>are</I> bound to your husband forever. You have history together that you will never fully escape. Your experiences with your husband have provided both growth and scars and have molded you into who you are today.<P>What that means in your own particular case, I can't say. If your husband's repentance is a sham, or if it's short-lived, then reconciling with him would seem to be a mistake. On the other hand, if his repentance is <I>real</I>...well...I doubt that any kind of healing from a broken relationship is as complete or fulfilling as the healing that comes from the restoration of that relationship.<P>I don't think it's a bad idea for you to be asking these kinds of questions and thinking about these kind of things. But I <I>still</I> think you would be better off devoting more attention to defining and enforcing your boundaries <I>right now</I>, and not making any decisions regarding divorce until you see how things play out.<P>I think you would really benefit from some good counseling, both for yourself, and also with your husband. The counseling with your husband is desirable as a way of communicating to your husband the <I>importance</I> of respecting your boundaries, and as a way of training him in <I>how</I> to respect them. (My impression is that either your husband does <I>not</I> respect your boundaries and has no intention of doing so, or else that he hasn't a clue what that means and so he blunders over them out of ignorant habit. Or both, if he resists learning.)<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited June 29, 2001).]
Hi,<P>I wrote over on Cheryl's thread too.<P>Look, my ex-H cheated MANY times, as yours did. I made my own stupid mistake and cheated, in year 18 of our marriage. He kept cheating, and I divorced him. To make matters "worse" I met someone before my divorce was final (it had been filed and he was living out of the home, and had been for months) and now I am married to that man.<P>Doesn't sound too promising, does it?<P>TLFM?, here's what I think you should do: If you are a religious person, go to your clergyperson and ask your questions. Pray about the questions and answers you receive. If you are not a religous person, look at the marriage vow, look at the law, and ask someone whom you respect what they think about what you've found. <P>Then, and this will seem like the really hard part, look inside yourself and ask, "What do **I** think?" and "What can **I** live with?" Now, some around here will tell you that you're being selfish and that that's how affairs begin. Yes, I'll agree, it is how affairs begin... but... it's also how you'll figure out what YOU can live with.<P>Look, let's be honest here... only YOU have to live in YOUR skin. NOBODY can tell you if it's right or wrong. Well, they CAN, and they WILL, but they aren't YOU, now are they? They have to live for THEMSELVES, and you have to live for YOU.<P>I know this feeling you have... this feeling of injustice and pain. When my first H cheated, it ripped me into a million pieces, and I stayed, over and over again, because I loved him, and because it was my duty. One day, it hit me, I don't deserve this. Never mind what anyone else says, I don't deserve to be battered anymore.<P>I suspect you are a Christian believer... I don't know why, but I do. Let me tell you that I too am a believer in Christ. I believe that I will stand before God one day and account for my sins, and for my life. If I was wrong to remarry, it will be **MY** responsibility to stand before God, nobody elses. I choose to take that chance, because I am, after all, only doing my best to understand the scriptures (which say I had Biblical reasons) and to understand this life (only one shot here, and I'm tired of the pain).<P>Best wishes to you...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino
Everyone has given you some very good advice, but the choice is strictly up to you on whether or not you divorce or stay married. Either one of your chooses you choose, you will have to forgive him. God wants you and I to live in peace; in addition, God hates divorce, but I believe he hates adultery even more. The pain and destruction of adultery is far greater than some people can imagine. It is worst than divorce! This is why, God allows or acknowledges that the victim is free to divorce the cheating spouse. We all have our own interpetation of the Bible. This is why it is important for everyone to pray for individual understanding. Because as many have told you, you will have to answer to God for any decisions you make in life, whether they be good or bad ones. <P>Maybe separating for a while, so you can pray and think about your future may not be a bad idea before you may any final decisions. <P>There are some questions you may want to ask your husband. Is he sorry for what he has done to you and the damage he caused, or is he sorry that he is caught? Is he changing to keep you, or is he changing because he realizes the damages and consequences of his adultery? You also may want to make sure he is tested for diseases. A lot of VD's are asymtomatic. <P>In essence of it all, you are not obligated or owe anyone any explanation if you decide to divorce, except to God and yourself; and God knows......
I forgot to answer your question. No! He is responsible for his own sins. Although his sins can harm you, you're not responsible for his sins. You've obviously keep your vows and committment to him. He broke the vows! <P>Somethings are worth fixing. Marriage is one of them if both parties are willing to work it out.
Hi... here's the quote from Bell <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Maybe separating for a while, so you can pray and think about your future may not be a bad idea before you may any final decisions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think there is a good book called "Should I Stay or Go: Controlled Separation" by Lee Raffel. I have it and it's very good. Take things slow as others have suggested, pray to God for discernment. Remember to forgive... not to be a doormat or enabler but to forgive truly. It truly is for fellowship with others... if you don't forgive, you will be hindered in your other relationships as well. But all these things take time...<P>Warmly, I say... hang in there. I implore you to get beyond the physical/sexual implications of your divorce and see underneath that all about intimacy and true connection... maybe if you examine that a bit, you may find some contributing factors that may have helped create the environment where you H felt the need to seek his needs elsewhere (please, I'm not blaming). Just be open to examine your true heart...<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17
TLFM,<BR> AM I TOO LIVE ALONE AND SINGLE AND LONELY FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE BECAUSE OF SIN THAT WAS COMMITTED AGAINST ME, WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT?????<P> NO absolutely NOT!! But God expects us to forgive and I think that's the part you are struggling with (and rightly so) I posted on the other thread and you mentioned I was bitter. Well, maybe so towards OM mostly. It's something I'm praying about. But you also sound a little bitter and your heart has been hardened. <P> My W and I hadn't been to church in 3 years and the FIRST lesson I heard when I returned was on FORGIVENESS. STRANGE HUH? "How many times must I forgive Lord? "Seven times?" "No SEVENTY TIMES SEVEN" <P> It's funny, people who murder are forgiven easier than ones who have affairs!! Seems pretty cut and dry in that case. One murders, is truly sorry, God forgives, people forgive, life goes on. But have an affair?? DAMMED!! NOT SO..... The way I understand it to God sin is sin whether it's murder, adultery or using his name in vain. It's all sin! Imagine being so judged and internally tormented for swearing using the Lord's name in vain!!<P>NOW- he has decided he loves me, he has turned to God, and is committing himself to me, HE SAYS, even after I divorce him- but the fact is- in my eyes, he broke our marriage vows already!<P> <P> I agree with GnomeDePlume<BR>Don't forget that another Biblical principle is forgiveness. If your husband is truly repentant, then I think you have to seriously consider what hardening your heart against him might mean for your spiritual (and psychological) condition. Not because you might be breaking some rule or other, but because those "rules" are made for our own well-being: nursing hatred is self-destructive.<P> Well, one of the things I've learned is that we have to "Earn a Divorce" or we are destined to repeat our mistakes. I would at least TRY with professional help of course. You and your H can counsel with Steve Harley over the phone. He is an expert in this field and may be able to help. He claims a 90 something percent success rate!!<P> Another point I'd like to share. You mentioned your kids are older and maybe not so effected by all this. Well, our children "pretended" that it didn't matter to them BUT told us how much all this has effected them AFTER we reconciled and now aren't "Acting out" as much in their own lives. <P> God WILL bless your marriage and it will be better than EITHER of you could have ever imagined IF you try (again) and with the right tools and God's direction you won't be sorry I promise, OOPS HE PROMISED!!!
GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK<BR><P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom and PRAYER is why!!"
Thank you all for your replies- you have given me very well thought out insight, opinions and direction in which I need to be examining scripture and my life...And I have done so at great lengths these past three days-<P>I am truly planning to divorce him- I am tired, I am not willing to sacrifice myself again to him, and I have read thru the scriptures and feel that I can make this decision in confidence that it will be ok for me..In his sin, he turned from me and desecrated our marriage and our vows- and I understand that I am no longer bound to him..<P>I know that there are issues of forgiveness...I think in my heart I truly have forgiven him- I am friends with him, I can be kind and loving to him, but I don't think that just because I have been instructed to Forgive him "seventy times seven", that I need to open myself completely back up for this type of pain and betrayal from him again. I believe that you can truly forgive someone, and truly love someone, but that you also must learn your lesson, move forward without traveling the same path twice, and as you are brought thru lifes pain and trials, that you use it to be an encourager and help to someone else!!! <P>I am not perfect- and at this point- my overall forgiveness is not perfect- I do struggle with feeling of bitterness- I am not convinced that forgiveness also goes hand in hand with forgetfulness...I know that God casts our sin from us to remember it no more, but I am human, I am frail, and I am seriously struggling with the "forget" part- too many years and WAY to much pain and rejection (and that was even BEFORE I FOUND OUT ABOUT HIS AFFAIRS- those were the straw that broke the camels back!)<P>Someone here equated this sin to murder- and that murderer's are forgiven and the sin is forgotten and they move on with life- HOWEVER- I don't believe that the VICTIM'S of that murder- the families, the friends, the spouse- are able to forget-and it takes a truly great touch from God to be able to forgive!! I know that no sin is bigger or smaller than another- but my children and I are indeed "victim's" in this- and it is not my desire to drag any of us thru this again...I now have had my eyes WIDE OPENED to the power of Satan and his desire to destroy me.<P>I attended church again for the first time in 5 months (since D-Day), and the sermon was on the Book about the prayer of Jabez....I am going to pray down the blessing of God for my children and myself, and I'm also going to seek counseling for the four of us as well...<P>I'm going to move forward for ME- for my children, I'm going to put my trust in God (slowly but surely I can actually say that again?) and I am going to continue with my plans to divorce the man who has thrown me away.<P>I also am setting my own goals, I am enjoying being seperated quite honestly, and I don't plan to pursue any other relationships any time soon! One thing I have learned thru all of this- is that there is NO ONE that is worth sacrificing my children and my relationship with God over!! NOT EVEN HIM!!!<P>Again, I thank you all for taking the time to respond to me, I'm sorry that I do not plan reconcile, nor have any desire to, but as I examined my heart and my future, I'm confident that God will direct me as I should go- and right now- that is without my STBX..I wish him well, I am happy that God has granted him forgiveness and peace and put him on his own path, but I don't believe that I will be with him ever again.<P>I appreciate your thoughts and your time-<P>TLFM
Tlfm,<P>You are NOT paying for husband's sins unless you have no sin!<BR>[And if you had no sin, you as spiritually stronger would willingly bear with Love the infirmities of the weaker! Galatians 6:1]<P>Here is why:<P>We vowed and promised to love our mates as rich and poor, as well and as ill, for better and for worse, as every word and its opposite.<P>To do so, we have to love ourselves as better and worse, as all words and their opposites.<P>So to hate being any word is the first sin.1 John 3:4.<P>For to hate myself as any word is to OWE myself Love. Romans 13:8.<P>And to hate myself as any word is to hate you as myself and so OWE you Love. Romans 13:8.<P>You said that you ' have loved [him] with all my heart and soul.'<P>It also adds in 'with all your understanding, with all your strength and with all your mind.'<BR>Matthew 22:36-40, Mark 12:29-34 and Luke 10:25.<P>This also means with all your being and with all words.<P>For example, it is because we love ourselves as being human that we love ourselves as human beings.<P>So tlfm, you need to ask yourself :<P>Do I love me<BR>as being good and as being bad, <BR>as being well and as being ill, <BR>as being rich and as being poor, <BR>as being weak and as being strong, <BR>as being winner and as being loser, <BR>as being failure and as being success, <BR>as being first and as being last, <BR>as being adult and as being child, <BR>as being your mom and as being dad, <BR>as being ruler and as being ruled, <BR>as being master and as being slave, <BR>as being with company and as being ALONE, <BR>as being DOUBLE and as being SINGLE, <BR>as being knowledgeable and as being ignorant, <BR>as being consenting and as being non-consenting, <BR>as being betrayed and as being the betrayer, <BR>as being a struggler and as being home free, <BR>as being any word and as being any word's opposite?<P>Or,<BR>Do I hate being any word?<P>If the answer to any of the above is 'No,'<BR>then<BR>you do hate being any word, and then you are only paying for ONLY what Love you did not have for you and so did not have for him: <P>for you did notand still do not love him with all of your heart and etc i.e. with all of your words: <BR>you love you and him with all of the Love in your heart, but you also hate you and him with all the hate in your heart!<P>Example:<BR>The loneliness you feel is because you hate being alone with yourself!<P>To be alone in Hate of being alone is loneliness.<BR>Being alone in Love of being alone is enjoying my own company and so never ever being alone!<P>And since God is Love, when you are in Love and alone, you are not only with yourself, but God is also with you!!!!!!<P>Do you love being innocent and being guilty?<BR>No?<BR>Then you are guilty for hating you as guilty!<BR>That is double guilt: guilty for whatever and guilty for hating you as guilty!<BR>And so you will hate your husband as being gulity for being an adulterer.<P>Do you love yourself as an adulterer?<BR>If not, how can love him as yourself?<BR>You can't.<BR>You will only be able to hate him as yourself because you can't say the words: <BR>I love myself as an adulterer, <BR>and so can't say the words: <BR>I love my husband as an adulterer!<P>Please read Matthew 12:34-37. John 15:9, 1 John 4:19-20, 2:9-11, John 15:9, Matthew 5:43-48, 25:35-45, 2 Corinthians 12:9-10, Romans 8:28 and 35-39.<P>And pray for God to help you to love you as all words! John 1:1, 12-13 and 1 John 4:8,16.<P>And ask more quetions.<P>In<BR>Omegalove<BR>
tlfm,<P>So since marriage is based on Love,<P>we break our vows when we hate ourselves and so others as any words!<P>To hate ourselves as any word is spiritual adultery.<P>This hate is what leads to the physical adultery!<BR>James 1:12-13.<P>So even of you did not commit adultery, you are still guilty of the spiritual sin of adultery by hating yourself as any word including the word adulterer!<P>If you remarry without changing your attitude, you will end up with someone who also hates himself and so has the same adulterous attitude and the same thing will tend to happen again!!!!!!<P>And so too, even if he has stopped committing physical adultery, if he still hates himself as an adulterer, he still has the spirit of adultery and he will most likely DO the physical act AGAIN!!!!!<P>To check out his sincerity, ask him if he loves himself as an adulterer.<P>if he says no, then you know WHy he did it in the first place and how you can help him NOt do it again if you decide you want to help save him and your marriage!!<P><BR>In<BR>Omegalove
I've read your posts and I'd just like to say that I admire your strength in coming to your decision to divorce. I admire your resolve and your determination to end the marriage. You have certainly come a long way to be where you are now - point of no return. I hope you never turn back.<P>I've been where you are now and I have never looked back.<P>Best wishes for your new beginning.<P>Nikita<P>
Omega<P>While I appreciate all of your posting- NOT SURE I GET IT!!! Can't tell if it is because I'm stupid or because I've only been operating on two hours of sleep a night! HA!! Are you saying that his affairs were somehow my fault??<P>I don't hate myself- and I don't plan to remarry anytime soon-<P><p>[This message has been edited by Too Late For Me? (edited July 01, 2001).]
tlfm,<P>You asked:<P>Are you saying that his affairs were somehow my fault??<P>Yes, <BR>but only if you also added <BR>the fuel of your Hate for you to his Hate for himself.<P>But you say that 'I don't hate myself.'<BR>In which case you did not contribiute the cause of Hate to his affairs.<P>Now, can I ask you:<BR>Altho you don't hate yourself, do you hate him?<P>For instance, do you hate him as an adulterer?<P>In <BR>Omegalove.<P>[This message has been edited by Too Late For Me? (edited July 01, 2001).][/B][/QUOTE]<P>
HI Again,<BR> I'm sorry for your desision. It's always sad when a Marriage ends and Satan wins. I will pray for you, your H and Children. GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom and PRAYER is why!!"
OmegaLove, I'm not going to pretend that I understand much of what you're trying to say, but I get the impression that you are essentially defining the marriage relationship as a state of psychological fusion. While fusion <I>is</I> an important dynamic in many if not most marriage relationships, it is <I>not</I> the only dynamic.<P>Although one spouse's behavior can increase the other's vulnerability to an affair, no one can <I>make</I> their spouse have an affair. And it is quite possible for someone to have an affair entirely of their own accord.<P>You raise an interesting point about self-love. I'm not sure what to think of it. But whether or not one should love oneself unconditionally, I think it is safe to say that self-respect is <I>not</I> unconditional. And if one chooses to act in a manner worthy of self-respect, I don't know whether the question of unconditional self-love can ever really be put to the test.<P>For me at least, it is enough to know that <I>God</I> loves me unconditionally, and to live with integrity.<BR>
I'm not sure how this plays into the self-love self-respect thing- but here are my two cents and how i have felt these past ten years!!<P>I married, I'm sure, for the wrong reasons- I was 19, I had a son (first and only time of sex and I was pregnant at age of 17 1/2)- I was outgoing, sure of myself, smart and pretty- seeds of unsurity were planted in me after I had my son that "no one will want to date a girl with a child"- and I think that despite the red flags, I married the first "christain-"(or so I thought) young man that came along and loved both my son and me..<P>As the months turned into years, i felt myself becoming less and less of a functioning, happy, outgoing person- about 98% due to the fact that within one year of marriage- my husband COMPLETELY changed into a hateful, sour jerk (and he readily admits to that!)<P>He wasn't interested in attending church, he wasn't interested in me- i kept trying everything i could think of- everything i knew to do and nothing worked- the more I tried- and the more he pushed me away- the more beaten down I became- that is perhaps, what makes me the angriest, is that he beat me down so badly- and then went out looking for funloving carefree women to have sex with!!! He virtually destroyed my self esteem and had no respect for me- then went on to do the same thing to all of his other women as well!! He knows this, and cries today to me because he knows this... He also took the ONE thing, because of my family history and the painful things I experienced in the realm of infidelity- he took the ONE thing that would destroy me and used it- did it- and ENJOYED IT!!! Now as I look at him I can't help but think "him? Him of ALL people- when he KNEW my past and my pain?" It shows me that he had no love for me at all for all of these years..<P>I didn't know about his affairs until March- I had gut feelings, but he lied to me so convincingly that I also was losing self esteem and self respect because it seemed like maybe I was just a psycho that didn't know what I was talking about- when actually- I DID!!! I really wasn't an idiot- I was DEAD ON! But the more he denied it, the more I thought maybe I was just stupid!!<P>Now- I look at myself and know that I really do have a lot of work to do!! I have to pick up the pieces of myself that were so ingrained with him, and try to put it back together and be a better person than what I have been these past few years especially!! I am so sickened because I feel like, he married me, wasted my time, used me up, and then left me standing here a completely broken person with a bunch of baggage!!!- It took a lot to break me- but boy he sure WON!!! All the while he got to have his fun- and now he is trying to step back into the picture as a "saved" man and living for the Lord...<P>He has lost nothing- and I have lost everything...<P>I can not reconcile with him- I can forgive him- but the years of having him have no respect for me are NEVER going to repeat themselves...If I reconcile with him- I'm planting the seed in his head that "hey- it's ok- i had my fun and lied and she never knew- and I get to have my happy life back- so why not do it again??" To me I question his faith, I question his sincerity and motivation, I question whether or not his relationship with God will last and be strong- i thought he had one when i married him, ya know???<P>In order for me to get back my self respect and self love, I need to stand up as an independant woman- I want to be SURE of myself- I want to be confident in God again- I want to focus on myself and my kids- and I AM VOWING THAT I WILL NEVER USE ANOTHER PERSON to try and validate my own self worth- it has to come from God and nowhere else...people let you down, and in my case- destroy you- and if I ever have a relationship with someone else again- I want it to be that I enhance them, and they enhance me- but that we aren't trying touse eachother TO COMPLETE one another..<P>I became an enabler because of my low self worth- <P>I guess if that is what you meant by it being my fault- then you are right- but my low self worth was a direct result of his actions, words and attitudes- personally- if I can be childish- "he started it"- yet I did nothing to stop it...<P>Until now<P>Does this make sense? There are so many people out there that struggle with esteem and respect issues- and personally, I think there are aLOT of people that latch right on to people who do, because they can manipulate and hurt and be selfish.... As I look around at nearly all the relationships amoung my family and friends, I see this to be true- there is one person with esteem issues that is trying- and one person that is selfish and manipulative that is using....(I guess if you really look hard- the manipulator has esteem issues too- like the playground bully scenario)- but regardless- there is always one strong and one weak person- and I'm not going to be disrespected any more- not by him- not by my children (who learned it from him)- not by friends and family- I'm not going to turn into an idiot- but I'm going to be strong and loving and firm!!<P>Well- that is my two cents, and a little more history about why I have chosen to divorce him- godliness or not- I'm going to reclaim what is mine- SELF RESPECT AND SELF LOVE!!<BR>NO WILL TAKE THAT AWAY AGAIN!!!<P>Thanks!<BR>TLFM<P>I have to be able to look people in the eye once again- and to feel comfortable and confident..<P>Omega- you asked if I hate him as the adulterer- and I do- <P>You can only be rejected emotionally, spiritually, physically and mentally so many times before it starts to take a HUGE toll on your self esteem!! (I can remember saying to him "what is wrong with me that you don't even want to talk to me or take me on a date?")- but of course- he would never say....<P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Too Late For Me?:<BR><B>i kept trying everything i could think of- everything i knew to do and nothing worked- the more I tried- and the more he pushed me away- the more beaten down I became- that is perhaps, what makes me the angriest, is that he beat me down so badly- and then went out looking for funloving carefree women to have sex with!!! He virtually destroyed my self esteem and had no respect for me-</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can relate to this. My wife's neglect of me and my inability to penetrate her growing barriers against intimacy were primary triggers for the depression I struggled with for years. It seemed like anything I did or didn't do might upset her, and nothing hurt me more than hurting her. I felt like I had failed in our relationship, which was the one thing that mattered the most to me. Because I understood what was happening to me, and was able to fulfill my responsibilities, my self-respect remained pretty intact. But my self-esteem dropped very low.<P>And yet, my wife's behavior did not <I>cause</I> my depression. I cannot accuse her of beating me down. I beat <I>myself</I> down by thinking I could fix our relationship and thus taking responsibility for it. I was not able to get my depression under control until I realized that I was responsible only for doing what was right, and that my wife's attitudes and feelings were <I>her</I> problem.<P>The flip side of this is that, just as I had to give up responsibility for my wife's feelings, I had to own <I>my</I> feelings. My depression was <I>my</I> responsibility, not my wife's.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Now as I look at him I can't help but think "him? Him of ALL people- when he KNEW my past and my pain?" It shows me that he had no love for me at all for all of these years..</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm afraid I have to agree with your assessment. Perhaps, though, he loved you as well as he was able (i.e. not very well). One cannot love another better than one loves oneself. Chances are, your husband was acting out some problem of his own, and you were merely "collateral damage".<P>I too had a "her of all people" reaction to my wife's desertion. My wife is as sensitive and compassionate as they come, and for <I>her</I> to betray and use me as she did, when I had been nothing but good to her for all those years...well, I doubt my ability to trust will ever recover from such a blow.<P>On the other hand, I now know that I can survive the ultimate betrayal by the one person in a position to hurt me the most. Therefore, opening my heart to that risk again is not as scary as it once was...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>All the while he got to have his fun- and now he is trying to step back into the picture as a "saved" man and living for the Lord...<P>He has lost nothing- and I have lost everything...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He lost <I>you</I>. Perhaps that means something to him now.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I can not reconcile with him- I can forgive him- but the years of having him have no respect for me are NEVER going to repeat themselves...If I reconcile with him- I'm planting the seed in his head that "hey- it's ok- i had my fun and lied and she never knew- and I get to have my happy life back- so why not do it again??" To me I question his faith, I question his sincerity and motivation, I question whether or not his relationship with God will last and be strong- i thought he had one when i married him, ya know???</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It would be foolish for you <I>not</I> to question these things, and I doubt your husband could ever fully earn your trust. But then, I doubt you could ever trust <I>any</I> man after what you went through.<P>I'm not advising you to give your husband another chance, but do not underestimate God's power to heal both you and your husband, whether separately or together. Perhaps despite my own skepticism, even trust could be restored.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>In order for me to get back my self respect and self love, I need to stand up as an independant woman- I want to be SURE of myself- I want to be confident in God again- I want to focus on myself and my kids- and I AM VOWING THAT I WILL NEVER USE ANOTHER PERSON to try and validate my own self worth- it has to come from God and nowhere else...people let you down, and in my case- destroy you- and if I ever have a relationship with someone else again- I want it to be that I enhance them, and they enhance me- but that we aren't trying touse eachother TO COMPLETE one another..</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think this is <I>exactly</I> what you should be doing right now. Very laudable goals.<P>Personally, I believe that it is only after you get to this point of self-love, self-respect, and independence that you will really be able to judge whether a reconciliation with your husband is good, bad, or impossible.<P>That's why I suggested that you not rush into any decisions. Just work on your own growth, and draw those boundaries.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>There are so many people out there that struggle with esteem and respect issues- and personally, I think there are aLOT of people that latch right on to people who do, because they can manipulate and hurt and be selfish.... As I look around at nearly all the relationships amoung my family and friends, I see this to be true- there is one person with esteem issues that is trying- and one person that is selfish and manipulative that is using....(I guess if you really look hard- the manipulator has esteem issues too- like the playground bully scenario)- but regardless- there is always one strong and one weak person-</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmm. I don't think it's so cut and dried. In my own situation, my wife always had esteem issues, whereas I did not have much of a problem with self-esteem until I fell into depression. I wouldn't characterize either of us as selfish or manipulative, and I think both of us were trying in our own ways. I guess I wilted under the pressure, whereas my wife snapped.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Well- that is my two cents, and a little more history about why I have chosen to divorce him- godliness or not- I'm going to reclaim what is mine- SELF RESPECT AND SELF LOVE!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Heh. I really wouldn't worry about whether divorcing your husband is a "godly" action. It's easily defensible by any Biblical standard I've ever heard of. The big question is, what happens <I>next</I>?<P>Fortunately, you won't have to answer that for a while...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Omega- you asked if I hate him as the adulterer- and I do- <P>You can only be rejected emotionally, spiritually, physically and mentally so many times before it starts to take a HUGE toll on your self esteem!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hatred is not the same thing as low self-esteem. And hatred of a person is not the same thing as hatred of a deed.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>(I can remember saying to him "what is wrong with me that you don't even want to talk to me or take me on a date?")- but of course- he would never say....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How <I>could</I> your husband answer that, when the problem was not what was wrong with <I>you</I>, but what was wrong with <I>him</I>?<BR>
Gnome-<BR>Will you marry me?
<BR>LOL<BR>Thanks for your replies and support! I hope that everything turns out great for you!!! I know I have a long way to go- but guess what??? I went back to church yesterday!!! Are you proud!!!??
<BR>Maybe my 30's WILL be better than my 20's ever were!<P>TLFM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Too Late For Me?:<BR><B>Gnome-<BR>Will you marry me?
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Er...well...um...uh...I'm flattered, but...<P>Whether my wife likes it or not, I'm still very thoroughly married.
<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I know I have a long way to go- but guess what??? I went back to church yesterday!!! Are you proud!!!??
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's a great idea, but in my opinion it is even more important to cultivate good Christian friendships with people who can serve as mentors. I have found that going to Bible studies is a good way of meeting such people.<P>
Jesus' hold up a standard for his followers to use in response to adultery and it is forgiveness. Jesus hold up a standard for forgivness, it includes forgetting.<P>You may beleive that you cannot forget...and you are right! Thankfully, Jesus is here to help. With Him all things are possible.<P>Your husband is repentent, forgive him and stop the divorce.<P>No one wins in a divorce, no one that is except our enemy satan.<P>Mrs. A.
Mrs. A<BR>I'm sorry- I know what Jesus held up to us as an example- I try daily- but am failing badly. I have forgiven him- but also daily question his faith and changes- he grew up learning how to talk the talk- and he is a manipulator.<P>My STBX's repentence is not enough for me to welcome him right back in with open arms- I have too many questions- and I think if you knew more of my story and the history and his hatred for me these ten years, you wouldn't advise me to stop this divorce. Just because you love and forgive someone, doesn't mean that you should travel the same path twice!! I strongly believe that! It's called learning your lesson and applying it the next go round.<P>No one has been winning in my family for a long time- and by divorcing him, I will atleast be able to move on in my life with my children with some shred of dignity and self respect.<P>I appreciate your view, but have to respectfull disagree...if you knew of my circumstances, you might re-think your advice to me....<P>Thank you<BR>TLFM
TLFM,<BR>I admire your views and strengths through this difficult time in your life, and most importantly, I admire how you articulate the views and opinions of your situation. As I stated in my previous msg to you, the decision of whether or not you proceed with divorcing your husband is strictly your decision. It's good to welcome opinion, but when it comes right down to the reality in making decisions final, you have to live with any choices you make in life. Some of us can only relate to your situation if we have been in your shoes, and others are only going by what you tell them. Although you have explained your situation as must as possible, we will never know what you really went through. <P>The decision you make is between you and your God. HE is the only one besides yourself that knows what you felt, feel, and what you are going through. Stay strong, and may God be with you and your children during these difficult times. <P>Who knows what the future holds for you and your husband, and how God will work things out for you and him. At least if you go through w/the divorce, your husband will know the damage he caused by his decisions. There's no law that states you can't get back together someday. From reading your msgs, he is going to lose a good wife. <P>OPINIONATORS: Being betrayed by someone you love is VERY hard to deal with. Yes, forgive in your heart! If many of you read your Bibles, many times in the Bible God compared the sins of people to that of adultery and being drunk......so that maybe we can comprehend the damage of our sins.....
TLFM,<BR>I understand your distrust of your H. I am not going to give you an opinion because it is meaningless. I have endured 9 affairs in the last 8 years of our marriage by my count. There probably have been more because I only know about those because I was snooping to get the details to confront her with them.<P>Am I going to divorce her? No, because whatever I show her Jesus is going to show me when I see Him on judgement day. Besides I want to show her the love He has shown me. I would not be a Christian if I sought only what made me feel good. I know this is sounding a little strong but bear with me. I maried my W at God's request. From your post you entered your marriage for reasons other than God asking you to do so. Your H is working on getting his relationship right with Jesus just as you are. He is not perfect just like you. Yet, what you are doing is what some would call the holier than thou approach.<P>You have children to consider. You have to consider how this is going to affect them. From researchers who have been on Focus on the Family the effect is one of the worst things parents can do to children. I can attest to that because my W is the product of a broken home. Though my parents aren't divorced, they both committed adultery. It was devastating to me to find that my mother had committed adultery. I knew about my father as a child which is why I am faithful to my W and mostly because God has been directing my path.<P>Your marriage like mine began with a sin: fornication. My W and I had sex before we were married before man and God. I did so out of ignorance. But ignorance does not dismiss the act as being wrong. Sin only causes pain as you are well aware. Will your pain go away by divorcing you H? No, because the damage has been done. Only time, lots of prayer, and discussing with your H is going to heal those wounds.<P>I'm not telling not to divorce. But God wants you to reconcile with your H because he is asking for your forgiveness. If you truly love the LOrd, you will do His will. DOn't do it out of oigation. Do it because you truly love God. I see us all doing a lot of things because we want to feel good. We need to start doing things because we love God. When Jesus died on the cross for our sins, I am willing to bet it felt many times more painful than all of our pain combined here because what He felt included what we feel. That's love. What we refer to love pales in comparison. We are to follow His example.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> email@example.com