<small>[ August 05, 2004, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Some people are so “holier than thou.”<P>What ever goes on in your life, in the end, it is between you and God. The pastor has nothing to do with it.<P>A minister, pastor, rabbi, or whatever is to be a “guide” in your religious journey through life. They are not the end all/be all. That is Gods place.<P><B>I attend another church now.</B><BR>Good for you!<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

LL,<BR> I am sorry about your troubles. Its good that you are here, though.<P>People find what they need in scriptures, your Pastor is no exception. On another thread recently there was a lively debate on this subject. People quoted Matthew, which clearly states that divorce is possible, but it also puts forth the position that your Pastor is taking, namelt that if you divorce, then you are done with that in your life. I support that on those terms, but that is the nature of my committment NOW. There are four accounts of that same story in the Bible. Read them yourself, and then go talk to your Pastor again. John 10:11-12 only mentions the petitioner, not the respondent. So, there is something there for everyone, even you. Basically, this second position is that if you are divorced, God releases YOU, not your H. Then, there is a further third position that states that if he ws unfaithful, you can divorce him, and you will be released, too. Lots of positions, you have merely to pick the one that makes sense to you, and be right with it.<P>God wants you to make peace with him, He is reaching out, go to Him. You have suffered, but it is time to stop suffering. You will, of course still hurt for some time...this is major, no doubt there, but I for one, would not hold you to any obligation to THAT man. I wouldn't stand next to him on a cloudy day, either.

Laura<P>I got alot of responses on my thread (about do I have to pay for his sin)- you may have already read thru it- but the people that responded could write EVERYTHING they said to me right here to you!<P>I'm so sorry for your situation- I can totally relate<BR>and I hope that we BOTH get things figured out friend <P>LOL<BR>TLFM

OMG woman.. you don't think you drove that poor man over the edge with your holy than thou attitude? What did you do preach to him day and night about his unruly ways and if he didn't change he'd be go'n straight to the devil? <P>Sounds like you drove him to all that, just so you could justify a divorce according to YOUR interpretation of the bible.<P>I seen and heard of it done other ways..you know getting on your spouses last nerve so they'd leave.. I guess that is just another way to drive a man out of the house.<P>You probably think that since you are a Christian that all the Muslims, Buddhist, Taoist, etc. are poor lost souls that haven't found Jesus and and going to hell too! <P>In short don't use the bible to justify your unhappiness with the man you married.. you probably made him act that way!

Oh Joey... I cannot believe you've come on here in this tone. What exactly do you read into this situation? What do you see as the choice this man chose to do? She is not the all-powerful genie goddess who wields control over her ex-H's life? Give me a break. On what scriptural grounds do you barge in here and talk like this? I just cannot even believe this - ... oh, I'd better just stop now ...<P>I think we all know that it takes two to create an unhealthy scenario... but from the sounds of it, I'm wondering about the mental health of her Ex... <P>Let's talk about this bit of scripture written by Paul since you seem to think people twist to suit their own needs... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>1 Cor 7:10-13, 15-16</B> To the married I give this command (not I but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. <P>To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord); If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him....<P><B>But if the unbeliever leaves</B>, let him do so. A believing man or woman <B>IS NOT BOUND</B> in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <I>emphasis added</I><P>Okay, I'm a bit calmer now... what chord did this post strike in you that you seemed to take it so personally? (Yes, I'm asking myself the same question).<P>As for you, laura_lee, I'm not in agreement with your pastor about the state of your future citing the scriptural reference above. I would say that I hope you continue to work towards forgiveness and praying for that man... because it's a soul battle raging at this point.<P>By the way, how did your pastor butt in...? Did you ask him questions about it wondering for yourself or did he just decide to share his thoughts with you unsolicited?<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17<BR><p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited July 02, 2001).]

I'm in awe of those who know scripture so well they can quote it at a drop of a hat. I too, find much discomfort in the prospect of divorce. I did everything I could to save my marriage, and I know some of the things I did/said/required drove my husband away. So be it. No where in the bible does it say I have to put up with a man who uses, abuses, disrespects, or <I>misrepresents</I> himself. This guy is an alcoholic sex addict, big-time. And [shudder] he's not heterosexual like he led me to believe 14 years ago. I talked to 2 priests who told me to divorce this man. As long as he drank alcohol, I would never be first in his life, and he would never be honest in counseling or our relationship. True, it got worse and worse. He refused to do the things he needed to do to help maintain a working, sharing marriage. He uncommitted himself and said, "Later, Toots!" <P>So, Laura_Lee, there are zealots everywhere, and no matter their cause, zealots are dangerous. That biased pastor is in a minority with his convictions. I know it's very unsettling to have a man of the cloth treat you that way, but I guess we need to remember that he is just...a man. I understand what he is saying, because I have had relatives who were rigid in this belief as well. They can really lay a heavy load upon the mind and the heart. You sound like your head is screwed on right to me. <P>When I was reading your story about your husband, halfway through I started thinking, "schizophrenia." By the end of your tale I wondered, "aneurysm." Maybe it's not those things, but is it possible there might be a pathological reason for your husband's transformation? Obviously, he is completely out of character from your early marriage. This man sounds ill to me, seriously ill. Or possessed. I tend to think ill, though. Is there a history of mental illness in his family? Please do not invite this man back into your life, for I think he is dangerous. If he poses a threat to himself or anyone else (threats, actions), you may be able to have him committed for evaluation (if you're still married, that is). And you may not be comfortable with that, I would understand. What a burden you and your kids carry. You're in my thoughts.<P>Blessings,<BR>Nell

An uncontrolled tongue is a very dangerous thing, the same scriptures we are discussing tell us that, and the lot of us could testify much in that regard. It is truly a shame what that little part can do when it has its way. Joey, I am sorry for the way your marriage turned out, but...c'mon, lighten up...reread the post...if you still feel the same way, keep it to yourself. You are entitled to your opinion, but I think this place needs to be safer than that. Practice your LBing on someone else.<P>Take a breath, Nicole...there you go...P.S. Gonna post up later, I have a technical glitch to iron out...Got good news, too I think. Nice post, as usual.<P><BR>LL, you know usually....like TLFM...the answer (sorry, TLFM) seems a little murky owing to circumstances (still support your decision, TLFM), but really. OvrCs gave you the quote from the Bible. I think you should read all of Paul's letters, and James...basically read everything from Acts to Revelation. It is mostly a collection of early church doctrine as told by Paul, who, as you know was charged by Jesus to start the church. Yes, you have been released from your bond by that verse. It is apparent to me from that...that you cannot leave an Unbeliever (you owe it to help Jesus save them), but there is no need to keep a bond with someone who rejects the bond's authority, as well as you personally. That would be lunacy, wouldn't you agree? Better for all that you leave that situation, and try again.

Joey - I have Muslum friends, and have read about Buddists beliefs. And their basic beliefs are similar to Christianity. And because of this it would be easy to live with someone committed to these beliefs, but Satanism is whole different ball game...

Mail my pastor<P>He will give you the proper Christian advice ur2rad@aol.com <P>

Long - sorry.......<P>I am so glad to see this posted - I have been here for a year and a half but don't post or visit often anymore because I am a MB failure - so to speak. After a year and a half of trying, counseling and doing everything I could think of - my marriage is just about to come to an end.<P>It was a bad marriage, my husband is ill, won't acknowledge his illness and expected me to accept his way and control and continue in the relationship, but it is unrepairable and I need to get out. <P>I too am a Christian and have been struggling with the divorce in general, but my relationship with God is good and strong and I believe, through the events of my life over this time, has made it clear to me that getting out is the best for me and I have acceptable grounds for divorce. Divorce is allowed. <P>What I am truly struggling with now though is that I have met a wonderful man that is everything I have ever hoped for and loves me deeply, as I do him. We wish to marry and have a family ASAP. My aunt is a Nazarene minister/couselor and we have had many discussions and debates about the topic of remarriage. Remarriage, according to the bible, as best I can find, is not allowed until your ex spouse has past away. <BR>I struggle with this as I don't believe God wishes me unhappiness and loneliness for my remaining years - if he did, why did he bring this wonderful man into my life. My husband also deceived me and emotionally abused me throughout our marriage. <P>I am entering counseling about this with the pastor of my church because I need guidance and am truly in conflict about this. I tend to interpret the Bible to say - that a divorce, for the grounds allowed, is in essence 'a death' of a spouse and that relationship and I am hoping that my new marriage will not label me as an adulterer and my children will not be condemned - children are gifts from God and usually from the love of two people - which is the case for me and my new partner - how can they be condemned by a mistake their parents made for whatever reason many years ago. <P>For the record - my aunt, the minister, has stated that there is no grounds for remarriage and I will be an adulterer and my children will be condemed. She does not want me to remarry. She does not want me to go throught the inevitable pain of the retribution of adultery I and my unborn children will for certain suffer. <P>Has anyone else struggled with a second marriage and this? Sorry so long, I just need some input.<P>J

J,<P>I am in my second marriage, under much the same circumstances you mention. <P>My story:<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002352.html" TARGET=_blank> A place to begin</A><P>Read my posting, and let me know if you think we can be of support to each other.<P>(((((J)))))<P>It isn't easy.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited July 04, 2001).]

Thanks Nyneve, <P>It sounds that there are probably similar themes in our stories. My H's last indescression was his fifth - that I was aware of - to this day he denies any of them. Amazing since I have talked with a few of them. <P>This has been such a struggle and I AM fully aware of what's ahead. Even though a MB failure, I have learned and am using the principles presented here.<P>My Christian beliefs have pulled me through many bad times in my life and my faith is strong, but this one has me in a real dilema. <P>Thanks for your response. I would like to talk further, but I can't post my email address in this forum. <P>J<P>

Here's mine, J<P>nbeginning@yahoo.com<P>Write there, and then I'll send you my home addy. I'd like to talk, if you would.<P>Hugs, Sheryl

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Ladies and Gentlemen,<P>I am not a Biblical scholar. However, I don't think this issue is going to be solved by quoting scripture. Why? Because even the men and women who make their living quoting scripture cannot agree upon its true meaning. In fact, millions of people have lost their lives because scripture was interpretted one way or another.<P>Yet, if there is anything that is obvious in the Bible and certainly the new testament it is that vengence as well as harsh feelings and actions are not what Christ wanted people to feel or act upon. THAT IS NOT SUBJECT TO DEBATE IS IT?<P>So let's stop and think about what is very clear in the Bible and act upon it. <P>Laura, you have a right to choose what you believe as do we all. Is it exactly what God wants us to believe? I doubt it seriously. None of us nor our clergymen can conceive of what little is truely revealed in the Bible and only hinted at.<P>You are right you will be called to account for your actions, but I do think that if your actions toward yourself and your fellow man are generally good and done with great care then you are within what we KNOW the Bible to say.<P>I am not a medical doctor, but I do know that part of what they are enjoined to do is: Above all don't cause your patient harm? It seems to me that is the message in Christianity. Above all do your best not to harm another person.<P>So if you take what I think we might agree we know and you can answer in the affirmative about helping and loving vs. harming another person, then I suspect your scales will be tipped appropriately when the time comes for your accounting.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Hi Laura...<P>Good point about the part of the law that has been abolished - stoning if caught in adultery. Hadn't thought of that. You're right, you would be released in these cases because your spouse would be dead.<P>Hmmm, JL, the wise one, does write very concisely and clearly. I too appreciated his comments.<P>I'm wondering though about what you said about guilt and control... if God's Will in our lives are simply to a) Love Him and to b) Love our neighbor as ourselves then what is the role of the <I>conviction</I> of the Holy Spirit? That produces guilt that brings us to the foot of the cross, knowing that we can't do it alone (without the blood sacrifice of Jesus who made it right ofr us to be forgiven)? How do we examine the "guilty" feelings and not succumb to others attempts to "control" or "manipulate" us to live according to the way they want us to live?<P>Also, I think it's right that we individuals answer to God alone for our actions BUT teachers/preachers will have to give account for <I>how</I> they've sheperded their flock, isn't it so?<P>Your strongest point in my opinion is where to draw the line in enforcing the law... Jesus talks about divorce being permissible in adultery but not becuase of the adultery... more so he was referring to the hardness of mankind's heart... we are to live at peace with one another and to love. Where does remarriage fit into this equation? I guess that's what you're asking isn't it?<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Laura-lee,<P>Make no mistake about it, love can cause harm. A great deal of harm if not applied within the precepts of your beliefs.<P>Please go to the recovery section and read the posts by and to olgjmj. You will see how love can cause indescribable harm.<P>What is important to realize is that when you are single, you are free to find love again. Or at least that is what I believe. IF you do your love may very well help this man have a happy and long life. Is that bad? Who has been hurt? Some would say your exH, but this man (from the future) had nothing to do with the situation of your current marriage.<P>All I know is the difference between science and religion. I am a scientist. It is the scientists job to try to understand with our God Given talents how the world around us works. A strong measure of that understanding is our ability to "predict" what will happen in certain situations given certain inputs. <P>Religion is about "belief". Why "belief" because we cannot KNOW what we are called to believe in. Our religions are based on teachings handed down that have been shown to be correct, but they cannot be "proven". So we are left to "believe". <P>So if you "believe" what I am saying, then it stands that no man/woman can KNOW what God truely intends, but we are called upon to "believe" that God exists and is influencing our lives. How that influence is felt is very personal in my way of looking at things, but it does not confer to any of us the "absolute" knowledge of what God intended.<P>Here in my opinion is where people get messed up, they come to "believe" that a man can KNOW what God has fully intended for our lives. I don't believe that. If you do, then you MUST listen to this clergyman, if you don't and there is evidence of many people remarrying and even in the Bible there is such evidence, then you must stop and think.<P>What does the Bible tell you? What does your heart tell you? Do you see the sense of what "might have been ordered in the far past vs. what is now the situation". <P>In short we can persuade ourselves of many things, look at what the boards here are filled with, people harmed by someone persuading themselves that an affair, or indifference to their spouse is alright. So if you take your religion upon yourself, then you must be ruthlessly honest with yourself about what you "believe" and what you feel your religion has taught you to "believe". It is an awesome responsibility.<P>Use it wisely, Laura-lee.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>grace says that Christians who have an unrepentant spouse unwilling to live within the covenant terms of marital relationship CAN remarry... and that's a matter of personal choice and personal conscience in personal relationship with God.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you for starting this thread LL. I'm not even in plan b yet, but this topic has been on my mind. I've read that passage in 1 Cor many times, and to follow it to the letter, I would be stuck in a bad situation til death do us part. I sometimes listen to Tony Evans sermons on the radio, this was the topic a few weeks back. His interpretation is very literal, and I'm driving home thinking OMG I'm stuck forever in this bad marriage! I do enjoy his style and humor, though, and I have benefitted greatly from some of his other messages. I agree that it does boil down to my own interpretation, my own choices and conscience. On this particular scripture, I'll take a pass on the literal interpretation. <P>(footnote: I have a thread in the bible study area entitled "broken wedding vows?" I'm sort of an oddball in terms of how my marriage isn't fully functional. There's not much traffic over there and I'd love to hear from some you folks on my thread)

Laura,<BR>Your choice to divorce him can only be based on you having a hard heart and his infidelity. In a way your pastor is right because if you are the Christian that you profess to be you would have won your H over to God because you would have been showing your H God's love as opposed to yours. It is God's desire that reconciliation be achieved but not at any cost. He wants you to seek Him for guidance rather than rely our feelings because our feelings are easily manipulate by Satan.<P>I am not putting you down. I am merely stating what the Bible says only paraphrased to get to the crux of the matter. However, it is your choice whether you do what God asks you to do. I could easily use your logic and divorce my W because she tries to be emotionally abusive as her mother was to her in a weird kind of way and she has committed adultery 9 times by my count. Yet, I continue to show her God's love. My W also professes to be a Christian; only God knows for sure.<P>As far as love does no harm depends on how you want to look at it. I married my W because God asked me to do so. Yet, it has hurt me as well as helped me because I am much closer to God now than before. I don't look for others to tell me what is right. I look for the Holy SPirit using others to tell me what is right. We must get off the kick that it is a personal relationship between an individual and God. If any of us truly has the relationship that we profess to have with God then we are able to see that the other person is hurting and that God wants to use us to help heal the hurt that is there.<P>I am certain that I have angered you by this post. I did not intend to do so. I just have to share what God has revealed to me. It is now time for you to study the scripture that the others have presented for God to complete giving you the message that He wants you to understand. Please listen to Him rather than seeing the messengers He uses opposing what you are trying to justify. <P>I have found that what we see in others is more times than not what we don't like in ourselves. We must look at what the other person has gone through and understand that more than likely the response they are giving is out of frustration or an attempt to control the pain they currently are experiencing. Does it seem that way? No, because it is masked in language that says they are attacking you.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited July 13, 2001).]

Whoa, ProfG .... "if you're the Christian you profess to be you would have won your husband over?"<P>HELLO?<P>Surely you realize that the Holy Spirit has to be at work in a person's heart for them to experience change and come to Christ ... and this man has a hard heart .... all she can do is live Christ's Love .... and he will have to make a choice in his own life.<P>It's not HER fault he's not saved yet. She's very possibly the seed planter ... you DO know that parable, right?<P>Not everyone that lives with or converses with a Christian will come to Christ. And for you to accuse her of not being enough of a Christian to have already saved him does quite alot of damage ... you might wanna re-think what you said.<BR>

Laura,<P>I am not a bibical scholar either, so I went to my paster about this same issue for some guidance.<P>Background:<BR>My husband left me 1 1/2 yrs ago. He is not interested in reconciliation. He is seeing other women. I tried with all my heart to help him and to repair our marriage before and after he left me. Now the children and I very rarely see him. But he does not mind staying married legally indefinately. It is inconvenient and expensive to go through the divorce process and he would rather use those funds for himself. After 1 1/2 yrs of seperation and no progress, I decided to file for divorce on the grounds of adultry. In one way I hope this will jar my H into seeing what we both will be losing. I have been faithful through all this. <P>I did not know what to do. To be alone and lonely the rest of my life? To never love again? I was tortured by the thought that my only choice was to be alone the rest of my life, otherwise I would be committing adultry. To never again recieve love from another person filled me with despair.<BR>And the end of my marriage was NOT MY CHOICE.<BR>My minister relayed to me that he interpreted the bible that if you in good faith lived by your marriage vows, but your spouse refused, that God wasen't looking to punish you. He wants us to be happy and to love and be loved by others. He said that the God he knew wouldn't judge me or punish me for the sins/wayward actions of my spouse. That meant alot to me - because the thought of never being hugged or shown mature affection again made me wonder if my life would ever have joy again.<P>I think it is one thing if we decide to leave our marriages because we are just tired of trying. But if our spouse does not want us anymore and seeks another, what are we to do? It felt like I was going to be punished even though I was not the one to give up on my marriage. I feel better now. I still hope that by some miracle that my H wil return to us. But now I feel that if he does not, that God does not expect me to live the 2nd half of my life alone and lonely.<P>I hope this is a help. I think all the posts here have been excellant and really make you think. These are such gut wrenching decisions.<P>God Bless You<P> <P>------------------<BR>SoSad.59

double post<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited July 13, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maya:<BR><B>Whoa, ProfG .... "if you're the Christian you profess to be you would have won your husband over?"<P>HELLO?<P>Surely you realize that the Holy Spirit has to be at work in a person's heart for them to experience change and come to Christ ... and this man has a hard heart .... all she can do is live Christ's Love .... and he will have to make a choice in his own life.<P>It's not HER fault he's not saved yet. She's very possibly the seed planter ... you DO know that parable, right?<P>Not everyone that lives with or converses with a Christian will come to Christ. And for you to accuse her of not being enough of a Christian to have already saved him does quite alot of damage ... you might wanna re-think what you said.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is the Holy Spirit who does the winning. Yet, it is her responsibility to not be selfish which is where she is. I know because I go there from time to time. But when I am there the Holy Spirit tells me not to be the FOOL Satan wants me to be and which I become when I start acting on the foolish thoughts that Satan has whispered in my ears. It is when we believe the lies that cause us to err as her H ans and she are doing. No, none of us is perfect. But He is not done with any of us until we die and can't ask His forgiveness.<P>We have to be in tune with the Hol SPirit speaking through everyone. Yet, we have to be very careful because Satan goes around mascarading as an angel of light which he used to be but is no longer.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

LauraLee,<P>From your posts, I get the impression that you are a pretty stable person - not easily swayed by self-serving or emotional arguments.<P>I believe that first of all God loves us. He does not condemn us to suffering without purpose. Jesus said to his detractors who critisized the deciples for violating some technical sabbath law "The sabboth is made for man and not man for the sabboth." The same principle can be applied throughout the law. God did not make the law to restrain us simply as an assertion of his power and authority - but to bless us as the law is a guide to the best possible life. Jesus himself never condemned anyone but the self-important "religions authorities". He did not condemn even a prostitute. We are all saved by grace, and not by works. We cannot make ourselves perfect in this life, and must rely on God's grace.<P>Jesus made plain the highest law - the law of love - and said that all the rest of the law is derived from it. The question is, "who is hurt by you remarrying." I personally don't see that anyone is - and thus I don't see your remarriage as a violation of the law of love. Rather, I see those who condemn you as clearly being in violation of that law.<P>I myself married very late - at age 40 - and struggled with the question of whether I should date divorced women. For various reasons I did not - tho I knew one or two who I believed were simply victims - who's husband's had left them. I thought (as if I were some catch ) tht it was unfair to those ladies that I would not date them - but on the other hand, I think my level of emotional/relational maturity would have made it difficult for me to date them anyway. So, now, since my W left me, I've begin to think about it again. At first, I thought that if she divorces me, I'll just be alone - and learn to be happy with that. I'm not sure now. Anyway, I think you've got things together LauraLee.<P>May God bless you,<P>-AD