Marriage Builders
Posted By: Jayhawk 93 What is wrong with people? - 07/17/01 07:41 PM
I recently found out that two acquaintances of mine are having an affair. Person “A” is recently divorced and person “B” is happily (?) married. What amazes me is that person A was the BS in marriage and is now contributing to person B becoming a WS. Also, the spouse of person B is a divorcee who was the WS in that first marriage. It’s like a vicious circle.<BR> <BR>I don’t understand how it’s possible that a person can knowingly contribute to another’s infidelity, especially after knowing the pain and repercussions it can have on one’s own life. In this twisted mess alone there has already been two marriages affected by infidelity and now it seems like #3 is destined for trouble. I’m not placing any blame here as both parties are consulting adults, but c’mon!<P>Can’t anyone keep their pants on anymore and respect their vows?<BR>
Posted By: Sisyphus Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/17/01 08:14 PM
People who have been hurt ... hurt other people. <P>Those aren't your friends. Unless they straighten up and fly right I wouldn't even stay acquaintances with them.
Posted By: Mrs.O Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/17/01 08:49 PM
<B>Can’t anyone keep their pants on anymore and respect their vows?</B><P>I hear ya, Jayhawk! My sentiments exactly.<P>It is such a sad and vicious circle. And hurt people choose to hurt others, by their selfishness and inability to deal with their hurt in a healthy way, IMHO.<P>My H had such a sad childhood and was hurt deeply in his inner spirit. It has affected every relationship in his adult life. I sometime feel that he has no control over how he relates to people emotionally.<P>But on the other hand, we are adults and need to take responsibility for our lives, decisions, actions. Yes, many people are hurting deeply. But they KNOW they are hurt. And IF they know, then they are without excuse. <P>My H knows he got emotionally screwed up. Up until the MLC and the affair, he didn't want to get help. But now that he's self-desctructed his life for the third time since he was 19, he's finally in counseling and thank God. Maybe he sill be able to find healing for the past hurts. I hope so.<P>Meanwhile, there is no excuse...NO EXCUSE...in my book for contributing to marital infidelity. It's just not something that happens by accident. People in affiars go to great lengths to hide, deceive and lie to get their own selfish way.<P>It's heartbreaking and rather depressing when you see it happening again and again. My workmate has two women friends who's husbands are doing the same exact thing as my H.<P>I don't know of any answer, except to draw near to God and make sure that my own life stays true to Him and that my integrity stays intact, regardless of the sin and darkness in the world. It's not easy, but with His help, it's possible.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>
Posted By: Mitzi Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/17/01 09:05 PM
Sisyphus,<P>Now, come on! It is not always true that people who have been hurt, hurt other people. And I know you're an intelligent man who knows that!<P>I was hurt trmedously by my ex, as so many other people here were. And I have no desire to hurt another person in that same way! Or, for that matter, in any other way! I was and still am a very compassionate person. And as you can see by the others who post here, they are also compassionate.<P>Mitzi [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]
Posted By: Lisa_dup1 Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/17/01 10:31 PM
<BR>Jayhawk,<P>I second that thought. It feels like in our society today, that nobody cares about keeping the promises they make. Everything is ME,ME,ME and NOW,NOW,NOW! It's like we have become a society of spoiled 3 yr olds.<P>My teenage son really brought this home when he commented that he wondered if there would be any "good girls" left out there when he was ready to think about serious relationships and marriage.<P>And another thing that totally blows me away with the attitudes I see around me is that nowdays, a WS can bring home a "gift" that can't be taken back and keeps on giving until it possibly kills you.<P>And I guess what truely depresses me is that I see so called "spiritual, God following" people behaving this way also. At a church near me, one of the Male members went on a week mission trip while his wife (pregnant with twins) stayed home with their other small child. He met the "love of his life" while he was down there and down wants to divorce his pregnant wife. All in one week. When he was supposed to be teaching about God. Instead he was commiting adultry at a church sponcered mission and breaking up a family. GEEES......... Can you trust ANYBODY nowdays????<P>Sorry for all the venting. This attitude of selfishness and irresponsibility just really burns my bananas !!! <P>------------------<BR>Character is determined by what you do when no one is watching.
Posted By: T-L-C Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/17/01 10:44 PM
<BR>Not everybody does it.<P>Not even when accused of doing it, over and over and over again, and being told you did do it so many times you nearly believed it, being told that there was 'proof' that you did it, being told that you can't be believed so that if you say you didn't it means you did, ... <P>I had the offers. I had the chances, yes. I had the desire to, a few times. I didn't do it because no matter how poorly HE thought of me, I thought higher of myself.<P>None of the 'might as well cheat, he thinks I have already'.<P>None of the 'he is probably cheating and has a guilty conscience so I will do it too'.<P>Just flat out refusal to play that game. <P><BR>Flirt, yes.<P>Fantasize, oh heck yeah.<P>Have sex with someone other than the person I married? Not from the time we started dating until after separation, moving out, and filing.<P>What I've done since the filing is between me and God. I know I have some 'splainin to do. But during the days, weeks, months & years I feel I was bound by my vows, not once ever.<P>Physically abused for having sex with men before I met my husband. Verbally abused for not having signed dated notarized proof accounting for where I was and who I was with every minute I was away from him. Mentally abused to the point I started to WONDER if I had actually done these things and blocked them from my memory!!! I mean, HE WAS SO CERTAIN that I had!!!<P>Yet, no tempting offer and no degree of blame could make me cross that line.<P>So please don't paint the picture that those who are hurt go out and hurt others. Not all of us do.<BR>
Posted By: Mrs.O Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/17/01 11:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoSad.59:<BR><B>And I guess what truely depresses me is that I see so called "spiritual, God following" people behaving this way also.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In my opinion, this is the ultimate form of creating God in our own image. <P>There are so many "spiritual" people now days...hey, everybody is spiritual! Everybody believes in a "higher power!" <P>Well, I hate to break it to them, but their higher power isn't there to server them.....quite the opposite. We are hear to serve and worship the Lord. <P>Anyway, just had to get that off my chest.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><BR>
Posted By: Murphy Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/18/01 12:12 AM
JayHawk,<P> My ex's OM(BoyToy)was married and his W cheated on him,and divorced him.So,he came after my W at work,and helped her to cheat on me.Go fiqure!<P> I don't think in all cases,it's hurting others after you've been hurt.I think some folks don't really believe marriage works after their's fell apart.In this case,the OM learned all the tools for a good relationship AFTER his divorce(like some of us!).Then he used those tools on my W to"rescue"her from her long,boring marriage.I guess I'll never understand how one could"do it"to another after someone"did it"to them,either.I suppose he thought he was doing her a favor(such a nice man).<BR> <BR>I'm divorced now,but so far I haven't"rescued"any married women in distress! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P>I'll just stick to the young,single ones!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P> "Hey,Mitzi,....I see you up there!" [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>~~Murph [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]
Posted By: Mitzi Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/18/01 12:16 AM
After a long hiatus, our resident Yard God is finally making appearances!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Hey Murph!<P>Mitzi [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]
Posted By: Quiet_Goodbye Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/18/01 12:20 AM
Hi Jayhawk,<P>I have hurt someone deeply. I cheated. But let me tell you what it taught me. I NEVER WANT TO DO IT AGAIN, AND I WON'T TOLERATE IT FROM OTHERS, although I will listen and share my unfortunate knowledge to help them.<P>No, not everyone cheats. And no, not everyone who does is bad. <P>But I do believe <B>Sis</B> has a point. I think we can all agree that infidelity is a SYMPTOM of an underlying problem in the marriage, or at least in the self-esteem of the cheater. There is hurt there -- make no mistake.
Posted By: gsd Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/18/01 01:16 AM
This goes along with my latest feeling of loss of faith in human beings. It makes me ill too.
Posted By: Jayhawk 93 Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/18/01 04:00 AM
I guess there was more to this story than I had originally been told so I don't feel as bad as I did before. I still do not agree with the event itself, but it's really none of my business. Same story, different day....<P>I just get more distraught about relationships actually working out whenever I hear of something like this. It really makes me wonder if you can ever trust anyone besides yourself and ever expect a marriage to work these days? I still beleive in the union of marriage itself, but I'm losing faith in the people.<P>Maybe I just keep seeing all of this hurt which is forcing me to become cynical in my old age? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]
Posted By: Nell Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/18/01 04:12 AM
Jayhawk93,<P>It sounds like, what goes around comes around.<P>Nell [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]
Posted By: Bernzini Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/18/01 04:14 AM
I have confided in my best friend about all the horrors that I have been through during the last 2 1/2 years, dealing with my husband's infidelities and other problems that he has. She sympathizes and is angry for me.<P>On the other hand, she giddily confides in me about what she and the personal trainer at the gym are up to. It makes me sick, it makes me unhappy for her, and yet, nothing I say changes her mind. She is married to a wonderful man and they had two cute little kids. You are wondering why we are friends? I could walk out of her life and turn my back on her, but that is not what friends are for. I will be here for her when the truth hits home.
Posted By: WhenIfindthetime Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/18/01 06:04 PM
It is well document (don't ask me where) that people, who are angry after a betrayal, will associate the betrayal with the opposite sex, and to get even with the opposite sex, will take down another marriage. . . .<P>this reaction follows harley's chapter on the purpose and use of anger in a relationship, and it is applicable to reactions of intenser hurt from betrayal. My X's OM was found cheating, got divorced, and then encouraged my X to join him in divorce with cheating (I am pretty sure). . . .<P>selfish and a poor way to regain self esteem, in fact it does not get you self esteem in the end, only further estrangement. . . .<P>There are also relaxed standards in society with what is acceptable and what isn't, especially in governmental behavior and little recourse, maybe its the Clinton legacy [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] remember, if the leaders do it, then it must be ok. . . .<P>think about it.<P><BR>
Posted By: bonnet Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/18/01 10:47 PM
Hi Jayhawk,<P>so true, so very true. And so sad.<P>Here's what happened to me a couple of months ago. We had a 'do' on for someone's birthday. One of the guys was staying in a hotel while he worked up here, so a few of us went back to his room. Males and females, about 8 of us and all just co-workers. Eventually only 4 of us were left, one left and then there were three. I had already crashed on the bed, fully clothed and on top of the covers. This guy and another girl eventually ended up on the bed BESIDE ME (they obviously thought I was asleep) and started doing the do. I could not believe it. Both that he is married with a 15 month old baby girl and that they could do it with me right THERE BESIDE THEM. I got myself out of there quick smart.... No way did I want to be there for 2 reasons. He's married and does that make me part of it? and secondly you know the way gossip goes, it probably would have turned into a threesome!!! I don't think so. <P>Second story. A girlfriend of mine is involved in football teams, her sons both play. One of the teams she trains is full of married men who all regularly go out on a Fri or Sat night. All of them pick up. Take whoever home. One of the guys has been married 3 months.<P>I will never understand this.<P>I agree Jayhawk, I believe in marriage, but I don't know if I could ever really trust people again. I like to think that I will judge my new relationship on its own merits, but when everyone seems to know people who are having affairs, or who have had affairs, the lines get blurred between what has happened and what could happen.<P>It's so sad. I don't know the answers although I wish I did. I also wish I had a crystal ball for all of us here, because I have to keep believing that eventually all of us will find someone who really respects who we are and the vows of marriage. I have to keep believing that because it goes to the very heart of my being. I essentially believe that all people are good. We make mistakes and hopefully we learn from them. <P>take care of you, and have a great day<P>Jo
Posted By: Orchid Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/18/01 11:34 PM
SELFISHNESS, PRIDE & GREED!!!!!<P>These characteristics can devastate the best of peoples. It can turn them into unknown alien like characters without love, trust and care. <P>The big question is now, how to remove these ungodly qualities from our WS's so that they return to human form and move out of the fog back to reality? <P>Why do some after suffering so much why do they inflict the same pain and suffering on others? RE: Mooseworms in the brain. <P>Can happen even to the best of them making them the worst of them. <P>Find a way get rid of the pride, greed and selfishness and you may have found the cure for mooseworms on the brain. <P>L.<BR>
Posted By: waiting_for_her Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/19/01 04:21 AM
Our Takers are fed continual drivel about being 'entitled', or 'making things fair', and 'you've got to look out for yourself'...I think that Steve's assessment of marriage being the only acceptable, <B>fundamentally</B> co-dependent relationship, and how society is trying to deny that...needs some more attention at a [global] higher level.<BR>IMHO -Mike<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 18, 2001).]
Posted By: TheStudent Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/19/01 02:51 PM
What is wrong with people?<P>Here's my thoughts...<P>Everyday, one or both people wake up in a house with closed windows with artificial temperature control. They cannot hear the birds or the insects outside. I'll bet most have no idea what kind of wildlife exist in their area--not unless it is causing them some problem. They wake up to an alarm clock, because they need to get up unnaturally early so that they can groom themselves (in water/power created for them elsewhere) and jump into their automobile of choice and commute however long to a job that has no connection whatsoever with their family life or the health of their community. Odds are good that they don't know their neighbors, or they know them by name alone. <P>After spending 10-12 hrs away from their family and home, they come home exhausted, turn on a TV and spend however many more hours watching ads designed to make us feel insecure about our place in the world so that we feel compelled to get up tomorrow morning and do it all over again so that we can have the automobile of choice, in the big house in the suburbs, and lots of other "stuff".<P>And people wonder why others are screaming out for a sense of connection--this gaping emptiness they seek to fill in any way possible. Alcohol, drugs, affairs, food, shop-aholics, gambling, violence. They are all symptoms that our society is sick. We have little or no connections to the world as a whole or to each other. We are all to blame.
Posted By: waiting_for_her Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/19/01 02:59 PM
Perhaps, Student...but it needn't be that way at all...not for you, me or anyone else...really. Most people are just 'giving in'...we all secretly long for the connection, just we have no natural tools to elicit that state...we must do it in spite of the way things are...we look to the world to be fair, and equitable...then we go make carboard boxes for someone who doesn't even know us. Sad, but as I said, we can get closer to God, hence one another, if we only reach out with a naked heart, and try.<P>Nice post, but a little dark...go outside, look up with your eyes closed and feel the warmth of the sun on your face....that's God smiling on you...just be, and be healed. Take the responsibility upon yourself. You won't be sorry. -Mike
Posted By: Mitzi Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/19/01 03:04 PM
Hey Student! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Not all people are as you described. I will admit, I am guilty of some of the things but not all.<P>I don't wake up to an alarm anymore. My windows are open and I can hear the many dogs and cows everyday. My water comes from a spring so I don't pay for it. Yes, I do use my car to get to work.<P>As for my job, it is not meaningless. My job is very beneficial to my communtiy and my family life. You see, I work for an independent living program for mentally retarded adults. I like to think that in doing the things I do with them, I am making their lives better and making them more accepted by our community. I teach them day to day living skills such as cleaning, preparing meals, safety in the community, hygiene, how to purchase things, etc...I also have my children and other family members around my clients. It makes them more compassionate and more accepting. Believe it or not, my sons spend a lot of time with a client that alot of my staff are afraid of. <P>Just wanted to let you know that not all are like that. <P>Mitzi [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]
Posted By: TheStudent Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/19/01 03:56 PM
Mike,<P>"Nice post, but a little dark...go outside, look up with your eyes closed and feel the warmth of the sun on your face....that's God smiling on you...just be, and be healed. Take the responsibility upon yourself. You won't be sorry."<P>You're right, it was dark. The saddest thing is that people often don't even KNOW how disconnected they are. They just go along and wonder why they are not happy or at peace. <P>I have taken the responsibility upon myself. That is why I say we're all to blame. My life has changed 100% for the better since I made a commitment to live within walking distance from work, to do volunteer work, to go to a park with my dogs in the morning and meeting my neighbors instead of spending that time putting on makeup, fussing with my hair, watching TV, going to the mall, commuting, etc.--or coming to MB [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P>Before I came here, I was just as caught up in all that "stuff" as anyone else. In fact, one could say that it was what brought me to Atlanta in the first place (getting a PhD). <P>Mitzi,<BR>It appears that people have gotten the impression that I'm wagging fingers at others. I'm not. *I* was one of "those" people. As most know, I was also one of "those" who had an affair. I believe the first step to the demise of my marriage was me and my exH getting caught up in all the "stuff" I mentioned above. <P>It is natural for people who have been betrayed to try and distinguish themselves from others who are not as strong in that respect. It is easier to think "I'm a moral person, and they are not". I've done it myself and still do. There is a saying..."There but for the grace of God go I". I'm not a particularly religious person, but this statement means something to me. I have to ask myself, what is it about my living condition or life circumstances that have brought me to where I am today? Some of those circumstances are completely out of my control--some are not. If I were living in the conditions that some others were in, would my choices be different? This is about more than just "I'm good, they are bad". It's about understanding the influences we all are subject to, being conscious about them, and doing something about it once we become aware.<P>I have co-workers who sit around and gripe about how bad the crime is, how bad the schools are, etc. I tell them, "Ok, go volunteer at the local elementary and teach a child to read so that they can find a job when they get older, and also improve the schools". Do they do that? No. They go home, pop a beer, watch sports on TV, then wonder why nothing changes. It's someone else's problem.<P>Oh, and BTW, keep up the good work Mitzi!!!
Posted By: Mitzi Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/19/01 04:13 PM
Student,<P>I didn't think you were pointing fingers at any one person in particular.<P>And you're right, if people would just do something about the things that are wrong in society, instead of just complaining about it, the world would be a much better place. <P>Before my ex left, I was one of those people. I didn't complain about my situation, but I wasn't happy and I never did anything about it. Not so now. I've found out that life is what you make of it. I can't change everyone else, neither can you, nor can anyone. The only thing we can do is make changes in ourselves. And we can make a difference, maybe just a small one.<P>One day, Stu, you will get to a place where you are more than just comfortable, but you will be completely happy. Hopefully all of us will. I guess it just takes time and a whole lot of patience. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Mitzi [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]
Posted By: Jayhawk 93 Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/19/01 07:14 PM
I have to admit that I was rather angry when I first posted this topic. I had just found out about the incident and my post was a “knee-jerk” reaction because of my anger. Had I stopped to gather more of the facts, I would have learned that even though the event took place, there was much more to the story.<P>My anger was also a bit selfish because both people involved here are really more than acquaintances, they are friends. One is even a person I turned to myself for some support and guidance when my wife first left me. All of us had been involved in discussions and supported each other to a certain degree over the past year which made it that much harder for me to understand.<P>I have spent more time being involved with this situation over the past few days and have learned a wealth of information that I had not known before. This information still does not justify the affair to any degree, but it has made me understand a bit more as to WHY it happened. I still think it was wrong, but that’s just my opinion.<P>It’s strange, but I am witnessing first hand a situation very similar to my own divorce, but I am now starting to understand it from my ex wife’s point of view….or least from what she was willing to share with me. I feel fortunate to be here for my friend, but at the same time, the demise of this marriage is helping me to understand more about my own. I never knew if there was an affair during my marriage or not, but learning what I have witnessed in the past few days, I can’t dismiss the possibility. I think it’s important for all of us to realize and remember that an affair is not the cause of problems in a relationship, rather it is a symptom of the problems. If my one friend was completely happy in marriage, the affair would never have happened. I think the affair took place more as way to prove to oneself that the marriage was over and having the ability of being with someone other than the spouse was proof. <P>Jo/Stu,<P>I’m glad to see that the two of you are still around. I haven’t seen anything from either of you for quite a while and was curious as to how you both were doing? <P>I feel honored…My post has gotten Murph, Jo and Stu all out of hiding [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR>
Posted By: waiting_for_her Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/19/01 07:30 PM
Okay, then Jayhawk...you have been given a gift here...knowledge of what you can do to change things, both for you, and for the rest of us. You are definitely growing in this process. I admire you for that, yes, and respect it, too. Rather than simply rail about our sits...we need to be positive about it. I just talked to one of my only remaining true friends, and he has an about to WAS...she is a friend, too. Tonight, I am going to give them the books I bought when it was too late for me...I think there is hope, but I am not standing back and watching their 18 year marriage die...like the others did to mine. I'm not depserate, they will either work it out, or not...but I am not going to stand idly by, and say...too bad. I care about them, and I care about everybody else, too. Your thread may save a marriage...that is worth something, don't you think? Take care, my friends...we can make a difference. -Mike
Posted By: laura_lee Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/19/01 10:36 PM


<small>[ August 08, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>
Posted By: bonnet Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/19/01 11:48 PM
Hi Jayhawk,<P>just thought I'd share this. This is what my father said to me on my wedding day.<P>He said that there would always be attractive men in the world, some whom I would feel an attraction to, but being married meant saying NO. Simple isn't it??<P>That to me is the upshot of all of **this**. People don't seem to say no anymore. They just go with the flow and say hang the consequences. <P>I often wonder why so many people don't have the moral fibre to just say NO... <P>I know there are so many varied reasons for why people have affairs, all that I have learnt from being here. And I make absolutely no judgements against those of us who have had an affair. However I still can't stop myself from asking that little question.<P>I had quite a few opportunities to have affairs 10 years ago when I first started flying, I was younger, I was slimmer, didn't have quite so many lines etc etc etc. But I said NO. Yes there was instant attraction to a couple of them, (I can still remember them!!!) yes it was flattering, but I always thought "NO, I'm married". There was no way I was going to risk my marriage. The chances are that I wouldn't have been found out, because it would have happened in other cities on layovers, but I still had no interest.<P>I guess I just must be a one man woman!!!! I'm also not a very good juggler!!!<P>take care of you, and have a great night<P>hugs<P>Jo<P>
Posted By: WhenIfindthetime Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/20/01 02:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I think the affair took place more as way to prove to oneself that the marriage was over and having the ability of being with someone other than the spouse was proof. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B> that is the definition of an EXIT affair. </B><P>
Posted By: waiting_for_her Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/20/01 04:32 AM
laura_lee...I think that you have answered your own question! I agree...wholeheartedly.<P>The term 'exit affair' is defined AFTER the fact, watch yourself there...you could be creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by 'going there'.<P>One thing that permeates the BS world is to 'even it up'...the justification, blame, self-serving behavior...I feel that a WAS conceives a future WAS in the BS that they leave behind...we nurture it, and give birth to it later...sad...very sad. We are thinking that we are standing on moral ground, but that is not necessarily the truth.<P>Here, we commiserate...we hold each other, and validate each other...the 'who needs them', and we will move on to better things....it still leaves the OR unresolved, and we will carry the baggage to our next relationship, and the cycle will continue.<P>We need to charge ourselves with breaking that cycle. The media LL mentions is a powerful persuasion, we need to steel our resolve to fight it. Yes, there is a serious morality decline in society today, caused by the me-me-me thing, and we are playing right into it when we rage, and try to 'make it fair'. -Mike
Posted By: TheStudent Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/20/01 02:20 PM
"I think there is hope, but I am not standing back and watching their 18 year marriage die...like the others did to mine."<P>Right on!!<P>"Are people more hungry these days that they have been in past days? Why? What has made the appetite for sex outside of marriage stronger and "too tempting" to resist (why do people choose to do it more now than in prior generations?) And what makes it easier, today, to feed an appetite for sex outside of marriage?"<P>I don't want anyone to get the impression that I'm pining for the "good ol days". There is a myth that people were more "moral" in the past, and I disagree. Affairs are seldom about just sex. What makes people hungry for connection? To answer that question, just ask yourself why you come here. We don't know if there was more or less infidelity in the past. When I talk to older folks, I find that it was a topic that wasn't often discussed unless it became completely obvious to the outside community. They had more pressing things to worry about perhaps. Getting food on the table or even basic survival. What has changed is that our basic survival needs have been met, and we all now have the luxury of pursuing lots of things that do not relate to our basic survival needs. Affairs, getting a PhD [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com], video games, you name it. While I don't blame people for trying to distinguish themselves from others they consider inferior to them (and that is my impression from some of these posts), it doesn't solve the problem. Ask yourself, what do people think they have to gain by certain behaviors? If they didn't have something to gain, they wouldn't do it. Even things you consider sick or immoral. I bet you can find evidence of things that you do in your own life that are not good for you...and you do them anyway. Extrapolate that line of thinking out to infidelity, and you will start to understand. <P>People did alot of things in the past I consider morally abhorent. Owning slaves, beating children, etc. All of these were considered acceptable behavior at one time. Consider the context of the person and the society they live in. <P>About the me, me, me thing? Everyone is selfish to some extent. Everyone has a line they draw between what they give to others and what they keep for themselves. We know that alot of these behaviors (ie infidelity) only serve people in the short-term. However, consider how many wasteful behaviors we ALL do that are short term and don't serve the health of our community. Understanding the "evil" in each of us helps us understand the "evil" in others.
Posted By: Quiet_Goodbye Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/20/01 04:18 PM
I think we all just do the best we can with what we have inside of us at any given moment.<P>I have learned, the very hard way, that choices are sometimes made that "feel right" at the time, but hurt people we love later -- and I put "me" in that "people we love" catagory, too. <P>I agree that we need to simplify our lives -- to find the good in the "little things" like hearing "I love you," or a hug from a loving child, or a cat's purr, laundry hanging on the line, or fresh cookies... <P>...and I **will** say I long for the "good old days" when it just felt easier. <P>We can change our little corner of the world... and it's worth the effort.
Posted By: WhenIfindthetime Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/21/01 05:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> The term 'exit affair' is defined AFTER the fact, watch yourself there...you could be creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by 'going there'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>what am i supposed to watch?<P>the self fulfilling prophecy is done by the fogged in spouse, who doesn't know how to use their words or actions appropriately, because they are fogged in, or are having other internal struggles. . . . which we aren't aware of. . .<P>and what am i to watch out for again? fog?
Posted By: laura_lee Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/22/01 05:39 AM


<small>[ August 08, 2004, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>
Posted By: Nellie1 Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/22/01 11:50 AM
I think one factor is that, if you compare our culture to the agrarian culture of even less that 100 years ago, there was a much stronger connection between fathers and their children. The Amish believe that one of the reasons that farming is the best occupation is that it allows both parents to be home with the children, and the father has a much stronger influence and relationship with them. I rarely saw our Amish neighbor without at least one of his children. <P>It is very easy for a parent to become disconnected from his children if they are away from each other 10-12 or more hours a day. Depression plays an important role - depression almost always leads to disconnection from others, but conversely I think that the feeling of disconnection also can contribute to depression. <P>I believe that the first step toward infidelity is a disconnection from your FAMILY - not just your spouse. In so many cases I have seen on this board, the BS is the primary parent. This is especially so in cases where the WS actually left the family. <P>I do not agree that affairs are generally a result of the "marriage being over." As waiting_for_her pointed out, an exit affair is defined after the fact. My H has told me that as of early spring in 1998 he had NO plans to leave our marriage. By the end of the summer he was involved in the affair, and he left for her the following February. Relationships of a quarter of a century don't become "over" in that time period. However, during that time a relative was murdered, my H sunk into depression, and our oldest daughter left for college. <P>Affairs are rarely if ever about the marriage. Affairs happen in "good" marriages and "bad". Many people in "bad" marriages do not have affairs. Affairs are about issues in the betrayer, frequently clinical depression.
Posted By: Quiet_Goodbye Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/22/01 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>Affairs are rarely if ever about the marriage. Affairs happen in "good" marriages and "bad". Many people in "bad" marriages do not have affairs. Affairs are about issues in the betrayer, frequently clinical depression. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'll agree that affairs are symptoms of a greater, deeper problem, but to suggest that they are "rarely, if ever" about the marriage is wrong (in my opinion - always have to be careful about saying that). <P>It's a "which came first" question - was it the bad marriage that caused the bad/wrong/depressive attitude of the spouse, or the other way around?<P>I know it makes you feel like you've got a handle on the "why" of your H's affair, Nellie. I don't want to dispute that - especially in YOUR marriage, where I have no business interferriing. <P>But...<P>I simply do not agree that a marriage is fine, good even, and then one day (in MOST cases, as you say), BAM, one spouse is gone forever.<P>I don't suppose (and I ask this sincerely and with respect) that you have an idea as to why some spouses return, and some spouses never do?<P>... and that goes for the board too... anyone reading... why do some spouses feel such intense guilt (whether they stay away or return to the marriage), and some go merrily along with NO guilt? Now, THAT'S gotta be a personality deficit, right? <P>
Posted By: OAS Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/22/01 02:46 PM
I think that people are becoming too desenintized in daily life. I don't know if it is because of what we watch on television or hear on the radio or at the movie theaters. It has to be some combination of things that we are exposed to in daily life. Maybe the WS thinks that if they start over then things will get better in their life. Perhaps in some cases that is yes but I don't think that is true in all cases. There is some turmoil going on in their life that they don't know how to deal with and we are on the receiving end. It doesn't seem fair but fair was never promised to anyone in life. I still hold out for hope that my wife will let me back into her life and we can try and solve her problems and my problems together. We can solve our own problems but it is usally much easier when we have some type of support from a loved one. Just my opinion from what I have seen.
Posted By: gsd Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/22/01 02:50 PM
Sheryl-<BR>Good question!! I don't know. Maybe the ones that feel guilt really have a conscience, are not as deep into the fog, or enjoy pain. I think maybe it's about denial for the others. IMHO, people who are more "analytical," emotionally intelligent/aware, or expressive have a harder time reconciling what they have done because they can't escape in their minds the reality that they just left their spouse. The other possibility is that the ones who don't show guilt are feeling it, but are poor at expressing it. How many WSs demonstrate hostility toward their ex's? Passive agressive behavior? Those are all just masks for guilt.<P>My ex is marrying his OW this summer. They have been engaged for a little over a month. In May and the two months prior to that, he expressed regret and remorse, confusion about his new "love," hate for himself, and tender feelings for me. After seeing him for the first time in 6 months, he decided the pain was too difficult, and is now engaged to be married. Despite his "guilt" and depression that he was in, he is marrying her. Maybe to heal his pain, maybe to do things "right" this time. Maybe to validate his decision. <P>
Posted By: Nellie1 Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/22/01 10:46 PM
Sheryl,<P>I believe the biggest factor in whether a WS who leaves for an OP returns is whether and how quickly that relationship ends. I also think in many cases the ones who feel most guilty are more likely to not return, because they are trying to avoid the overwhelming pain they feel when they are reminded of what they did to their family. I agree with gsd that many WS who do feel guilty express it as hostility, etc. <P>I do not think that the state of a marriage can cause depression, except perhaps in cases where there is serious physical abuse for instance. However, people who are depressed do disconnect from their loved ones, and conflict avoiders have a hard time making strong connections. I remember worrying within the first few months after meeting my H that he might be suffering from depression, but I just blamed it on his rotating shift work messing up his biological clock. <P>Except in cases of things like extreme abuse, I don't think there really is any such thing as a "bad" or a "good" marriage. That implies that if you replaced one of the partners, the new relationship would somehow magically be different.<P>Frank Pittman said that men who have affairs are looking for someone they have not yet hurt. They have affairs not because their wives do not understand them, but because their wives understand them too well.
Posted By: positivebryan Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/23/01 12:55 AM
Hey Jayhawk..<P>You raise and interesting question. This type of behavior is exactly why we have a 60% divorce rate in this country. I cannot stress this point enough. Everyone needs to keep their pants on and get real! There are so many dangerous diseases that anyone can catch and still, many people decide to drop the pants and ruin their entire life and the lives of their families. <P>Note to all of you WS out there, if you haven't been discovered yet, YOU WILL BE, and if you think adultery is justified for any reason, ITS NOT! <P>DAMN IT WS! WAKE THE HELL UP AND GET REAL. Its time you start living for your spouse and family! There is no other moral choice!<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK
Posted By: Jayhawk 93 Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/24/01 05:17 AM
Hey Bryan, long time no see!<P>How 'bout a quick update on what's happening with you?
Posted By: Sisyphus Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/24/01 05:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Except in cases of things like extreme abuse, I don't think there really is any such thing as a "bad" or a "good" marriage. That implies that if you replaced one of the partners, the new relationship would somehow magically be different.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's like saying that leaving aside potentially-deadly safety issues, there are no bad and good cars. I'll give you the choice of a rusty '68 Opel Kadett or a new Lexus is300. Get my point? <P>Partners can be mundane, apathetic and disgruntled without there being any abuse. Or they can be lively, enthusiastic and grateful, and not dependent on the other's mood. Isn't one marriage better than another? <P>There may be "problems" with one partner, or both. Unless they have strong moral centers or are simply too fearful, either or both may wind up in affair(s).<P>The smile on your face, the chore taken on unbidden, the thoughfulness of a gift ... <I>any</I> can be a <I>moral choice</I>.
Posted By: always last Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/23/01 08:10 PM
The closer I get to my divorce, I have to think back and look at the big picture. I here everyone(including myself) crying about being cheated on or being unhappy enough to cheat. However, from my own personal experience I have to ask the question do any of us really marry the right person from the beginning? Do we choose the person that God has in mind for us? I see people talking about the good 'ol days but were they really all that good? Women and men alike were still cheating. It was just unheard of in earlier times to file for a divorce. I feel that we don't make good choices from the beginning. I also feel that as much as I and everyone else would like to believe, getting married is too easy!! It should be harder with much counseling(religious, financial, sexual, etc.)that should be required. We all I think see the true people we tend to marry..the good and the bad in them..but we think that it will go away or we can change them. I will always love my ex but I know that both of us are two different people. I am still angry but this to shall pass. I hope that this made me a wiser person. And as my mother says, why would I want someone who doesn't want me. I am too good for that.
Posted By: positivebryan Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/24/01 07:45 PM
Jayhawk..<P>HEY BUDDY! To give you a quick update, My wife and I are now separated and in the process of divorcing. I have come to an understanding that this is for the best. If I would have stayed married to my wife, I would have to be constantly dealing with her immature attitude toward marriage, and end up totally broke in the process because she has no idea of how to manage money!<P>I learned just 3 weeks ago that she still had contact with the OM despite the fact that he has a new girlfriend now!<P>I can honestly say that my wife is one of those people who will never learn to appreciate the type of person that I am. I have bent over backwards trying to do everything I could to help our marriage and she did not recognize that. I am the type of person that has never used any Love Busters in our marriage and I have been more than tolerant with her immature behavior which started 1 year after we got married..<P>I am very happy now and I am enjoying life more being away from her. I still love her, but I have a very difficult time having respect for someone who has treated me very poorly for the past 1 1/2 years.<P>I would love to hear about what is happening with you..<P>Please write back and keep us updated too!<P>Take Care....You are a great person!<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK
Posted By: Lady M Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/24/01 09:53 PM
Well - on the whole, it seems that we are reluctant to label people or their behavior as either bad or good, but we continue to try to label the marriage as bad or good. Are we merely shifting the blame here?<P>This is a rhetorical question! If anyone has any random thoughts on this, go for it!!<P>I tend to agree that, barring emotional, verbal, or physical abuse or the presence of drug/alcohol abuse or mental illness, that a marriage is only as "good" as one or both parties make it. I have also read instances of spouses having affairs for no other reason except that they wanted to, not because of any defect in their partner or marriage. To say that adultery always has an understandable, explainable reason, is to remove from the individual their responsibility for their actions. Adultery, like committment to your marriage, is a choice you make. There is not "someone out there" who is perfect for you, but you have just not found them yet - but unfortunately you are already married the wrong person. This myth, in my opinion, keeps us from truly committing to our marriages. The fantasy of the perfect person who is out there somewhere damages our marriages, because we are always on the lookout for the next "better deal" if we have this mindset.<P>Jim Smoke, in his book "Growing through Divorce" offered a very good observation: that we have let our merchandising attitudes (everything is disposable, temporary and replaceable) carry over to our people attitudes, especially about our spouses.<P>Some may think that the grass is greener on the other side, but they are not mowing it yet!!!!
Posted By: B4andAfter Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/24/01 10:38 PM
Bryan--<P>Don't mean to jump here as a newbie but I have a feeling that I am on the same path as you. Wife has been diagnosed with depression, has had emotional and physical affairs with three men in the last 3 years and seems to be doing the minimum in terms of contrition and cleaning up the mess. Not sure how we can heal until she heals. Would not be such a tough call except that we have two great kids--a reality she obviously overlooked while looking for the knight in shining armor.<P>I have encouraged her, per Dr. Harley, to look at the website and fill out the various questionnaires but she feels it will only make her feels worse. It would be of great help for me to know when it finally hit you, that enough was enough. The three closest people to me, besides my wife, have all said that I should strongly consider divorcing her and trying to start over. I feel that the kids are the big losers in that scenario, not to mention the horror of dealing with her and other men that will surely come in and out of her life, as has been her m.o. since high school.<P>I've been lurking around the board for some time, trying to draw on the strength and learn from the denial that is so common.<P>Would appreciate your perspective.<P>
Posted By: laura_lee Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/24/01 11:32 PM


<small>[ August 08, 2004, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>
Posted By: positivebryan Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/25/01 01:01 AM
Laura..<P>I totally agree with everything you mentioned in your last post here! The days of Me, Me, Me have got to go!<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK
Posted By: positivebryan Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/25/01 01:17 AM
B4...<P>I first want to say that I am very sorry that you are having to deal with the unbelieveable pain of this situation. To be completely honest and open with you, I thank God everyday that we didn't have children to drag into the divorce. I want to commend you for being a strong and moral person for doing the best that you can for your children in your situation. <P>For the life of me, I cannot even try to understand the thought process that your wife and my wife were thinking when they decided to enter into an adulterous relationship!<BR>There is no reason for anyone to have an affair on a spouse for any reason at all. In reality, the WS is only hurting their family, spouse and even themselves with pain that lasts forever! <P>To give you a brief background on my situation, I am a BS and the discovery day was February 15, 2001. When I confronted my wife, she confessed to the affair that I discovered through email message between her and OM! <P>I have been through hell and back during recovery and after about 5 months into the recovery stage, My wife told me that she wanted a divorce and by that time, I was completely exhausted of the emotional turmoil from the discovery and her unwillingness to make things right and seek counseling to save the marriage. My wife did nothing to save our marriage, she just let me get totally exhausted before I threw in the towel.<P>I will be the first to admit that the decision to divorce would have been much more difficult with children. <P>I hope for the best for you and your children. I know that it will be very difficult for you to tell your wife that you want a divorce, but in this case, if she is still seeing this other guy even though she has children is a person that you really don't want to be around your kids. Your kids need you during this difficult time in their lives and I hope that God will give you the strength to be strong and to do the right thing for you and your kids!<P>I wish you the best<P>Please write back anytime, I would love to hear from you!<P>My email address is: rieagan@aol.com <P>take care<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK
Posted By: Nellie1 Re: What is wrong with people? - 07/25/01 02:16 AM
I agree with Lady M. The myth of the "perfect person" for you is very destructive.<P>Marriages are not cars. There are not entities unto themselves. Marriages are what you make of them - as Tom Lehrer said when comparing life to a sewer, what you get out of them depends on what you put into them. <P>
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