Was anyone's ex-spouse a decent person? - Marriage Builders® Forums

Is there anyone else here who is NOT relieved to be "rid of" their spouse? Anyone whose spouse was basically a good person (before their affair, if the spouse was the WS)? Anyone who remains convinced that their spouse is still a good person, at least deep down? Anyone who still loves their spouse or ex-spouse? Anyone who is standing for their marriage?I know there have been people here who could answer affirmitively to those questions in the past - I have to wonder if they have all left because of the overwhelmingly negative attitudes here.

I thought my ex was a good person and I loved her very much, I thought that the way things were was the way marriage was I didn't know that I deserved to be treated different and after the A and seperation I began to see all the little things she did over the years and how she blamed me for everything the ways she tried to always change me, My ex didn't appreciate me. I wasn't perfect but I feel I tried, I can see now no matter what I did it was going to be wrong, She was never satisied and I quess she is having same trroubles with OM , she still wants to blame me for her problems.

I still think my x spouse is a decent and good person. I think we both made mistakes in our marriage. It is unfortunate that he wanted to stop trying to work things out but I understand why he finally gave up. It was a very frustrating marriage and we both were not able to meet each other's needs and didn't know how at the time. I wish I had found this site before my divorce instead of afterwards.

My h was a wonderful person, fun to be with, caring, terrific father, very popular, very moral and I liked him as well as loved him. He was my best friend. The problem is when he had difficulties in our marriage, he didn't talk to me and let it build. He said this in counselling. So now there's a wall, and I still don't know all the reasons why.

Nellie,Just one thing for you to consider --You use the words "negative attitude" to describe, I think, my attitude about my ex-H. If negative attitude is what you call facing the truth about abuse, then yes, I have it. If negative attitude is being brave enough to admit the problems of my ex, then yes, I have it.But Nellie, did you read the posts where I told you that I loved him, that I knew there was a better man "deep down," that our marriage **could have** been saved with some work? He chose not to work at it. He chose to continue the cycle of abuse, and therefore, for my protection (physical, emotional, mental, call it what you will) I left. I know "standers". I respect them completely. I used to wish I had the strength to wait it out, but I don't any longer. I left David because I had to. It doesn't mean I hate him.And Nellie, sometimes the truth hurts, as you very well know. You aren't what you call positive, because there has been no positive in your story. You talk about it "never" getting better. If people have left because you said it didn't get better, or because I said, in retrospect, David wasn't really a "good guy" then that isn't our problem, is it? We are just telling our truth.

Nyneve, This is your quote to Nellie:"And Nellie, sometimes the truth hurts, as you very well know. You aren't what you call positive, because there has been no positive in your story. You talk about it "never" getting better".Nellie you seem to be an intelligent, caring person, but I almost have to side with Nyneve. I have not seen very much positive feedback from you. Life does get better, I'm living proof, but I have to work 2 jobs to have anything.To answer the topic question, my X was a good person only if he could gain something out of it for him, only if it fit his agenda, only if everyone revolved around his schedule to make his little world perfect. That is how abusers/controlling people think "what can you do for me?"My X was a cop and worked many side jobs to provide us with a nice home. However, I felt he was very selfish when he bought 33 acreas of land, that we could not afford, just so he would have a hunting place, then bought a hunting trailer, again that we could not afford, just so he could have a place to stay.As far as a father, he loves my girls, but has a very hard time showing it and I know that comes from his upbringing as a child, but as an adult ---knowing that--- he can break that cycle and change it. He has missed out on a lot of the girls activities and they don't have much respect for him, but they know he still loves them.As a policeman, he has a good side, I have seen him help people. I once saw him turn on his police lights, turn on his siren, stop traffic and pick up a kitten laying on the pavement in 100% weather on the seawall in Galveston. I have heard him tell me stories of what he did to people that ran from him, shot at him or lied to him - very disturbing and sickening, but I won't go into that.He does have good qualities: hard worker, leadership ability, good memory, book smart and stuck on himself (sorry just had to put that in) what would you think if your X used to say, "if we ever divorced you would have sex with me every once in a while because I'm so good", I just looked at him and rolled my eyes. Nellie, you have said some things that have made me think about my situation and to a certain extent some of that is probably true and you made me see another side I had never really thought about. Your comments have helped me to understand and heel the abuse I suffered.

...and Nellie... to show you that I don't hate David, and although I don't think about his attributes often, I will tell you what I remember as the good things about him (before the infidelities):<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>He had a wicked sense of humor <LI>He worked/works hard <LI>He loved/loves children <LI>He had a sense of "family" and "morality" that he adhered to... <LI>He helped around the house <LI>He did whatever he could to see that we had food on the table, no matter how menial <LI>He took care of me when I was sick <LI>He took us to church <LI>He tried to be a spiritual leader of the home <LI>He went without to see that his family had things first </UL>Now, that was by no means a comprensive list... but you must see that there was much to love about my (then)H.I loved him Nellie. I will never say I didn't, nor will discount 20 years of marriage.Take from this what you will. Just know that I believe that inside, deep, deep inside, of my ex, lives a good man -- a tortured man who didn't know how to treat me sometimes, and really got worse and worse through the years. But that doesn't mean he didn't have moments of clarity and completely loving actions at times.[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited August 17, 2001).]

Sheryl,I was not referring to pessimism when I used the term "negative attitudes" - I was referring to poster's attitudes toward their spouses or former spouses, or the quality or value of their marriage. I was not referring just to your situation, or even primarily your situation. I know you and some others, for example Jill, put a lot of effort into trying to restore your marriages.I am not comfortable with the term "our truth." I don't believe truth is relative - that is one reason I no longer attend the UU church, where people are encouraged to seek their "own truth." It is not that our beliefs or opinions are invalid - but they are beliefs. My experience has been that it did NOT get better, but only much, much worse. I do not believe that it will get better. That is my opinion, my belief. I think anyone would be hard pressed to come up with any evidence that I am in any way better off, but I suppose another person in my position might be of the opinion that they were better off because they now had first dibs on the bathroom every morning.Nina,My H also admitted that I would have had to have been able to read his mind, that he tried to hide his feelings about things. Frank Pittman says that affairs are not about the relationship between a man and his wife, but between a man and his father. I do not think my H was ever allowed to express anger as a child, especially toward his parents, and I don't think he felt that he was loved unconditionally by his father. jabber,I think the WS have a similar shift in perception - where they once thought the BS was a good person, after the OP comes into the picture they remember all the negative things about them, and forget the positive. 711,I was kind of wondering if you'd post. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other regular posters who say that about their ex-spouses. elliott,When I said that life has not gotten better and I no longer have any expectation that it will, I was not only speaking of the financial aspects, though that is obviously critically important as well. Maybe the only way that life can get better is if you decide you don't love your spouse/ex-spouse, and I neither can nor want to do that.

Hi Nellie,I hope you noticed that we were posting at about the same time and I did think about, and post, some good things about David.About "our truth"... oh yes, I hear you about the UU church... but listen... when you share "your truth" that things do not get better, it is YOUR TRUTH. It isn't MY truth, or anyone else's truth -- it's YOURS, and YOURS alone.You don't agree with me?

Sheryl,We must have been posting simultaneously. I didn't think you hated David. From everything you have said about him, he seemed like a good man, struggling with something terribly wrong - depression or whatever it was. I guess I found it confusing that it seemed like only a few weeks ago you seemed much less negative about him. Have I just imagined this, or did something happen to precipitate a shift in your feelings about him?

Sheryl,We did it again - posting at the same time [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.Maybe it is just a matter of semantics - I just wouldn't call it "truth."

Hey Nellie,Thanks for asking, Nellie. I know you are trying to understand... although I'm not sure anyone can without having been in my head as I went through this whole thing. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited August 17, 2001).]

Nellie1My STBX was the best. I wanted my sons to grow up to be almost just like their dad. I encouraged my OS to look up to his dad, & because of that I almost destoried my OS. Is my STBX still a good person? To most people yes, but he will always been an adulter in his sons eyes as long as he is with the OW.Do I hate him, no. I hate what he did to our family. Do I love him, I hope not, after the last yr I be crazy to do so. He treat a dog on the st better than he did me the last yr. If he was the man he used to be, he would think he needed to be horsewhipped.I believe you can stand for a marriage, but sometimes there comes a time to say good bye & move on to the rest of your life no matter what the WS does or doesn't do. Hey Sheryl, sorry that things are sad for you now. Can I help? You helped me so much in the spring. lots of hugs & thoughts going your way.Also Nellie1, I wish you could find some peace.

I have and will always say that my ex was a good and decent person. He struggled with deeply buried family issues, alcoholism, a fragile ego, and a very confused soul. I know that he tried in his heart to do the right thing, and I see the struggle that he is going through in his own conscience right now over choices that he made. He is struggling to find peace. I can't say that I respect his choices, but I also have always had the patience to recognize and accept his shortcomings. I made plenty of mistakes in my marriage for which I will be eternally sorry. I just can't question if changing those things could have helped him, but they certainly would have changed me. I still love him dearly, though he breaks my heart everytime I talk to him. I have lost respect for him, but I will always love him and care about him, and that will never ever change. Sometimes it is easier for BS to focus on the betrayal and the negative qualities of his/her spouse. It is easier to let go when you believe in your heart that you are better off without the person. [This message has been edited by gsd (edited August 17, 2001).]

At one time I felt the sun rose and set on my ex but now the only thing he inspires in me is fear and sadness. I do feel I'm better off now than I was in the midst of the situation with him lying to me, cheating on me and being rather violent and angry towards me on a regular basis. But in terms of the practical, financial, living situation and the emotional scars left, no, I'm not better off. I have new baggage that I'll be lugging around for a long time to come and there will always be part of me that feels "not good enough" because of the way he discarded our nine year relationship and never looked back. When he was my best friend and lover he was a beautiful man, but when he turned the corner and began his affair something very special in him died in my eyes.

Nellie,Yes, I do still love my Ex very much. I have spent almost my whole adult life with him. Having him no longer apart of my life has been very difficult. I can't hide the fact that he is a very, very hard person to deal with and that I am relieved most of the time that I know longer have to live with him.I wish I had time to really write down my whole story than you would understand where I am coming from. JillPS My negative attitude towards my EX has not come from anyone but me. I have spent alot of time looking back trying to find answers and I have been surprised at what I have found. If my EX came to the door right now and said he loved me and wanted me back I would say "no". To much has happened the last 17 years. I forgave to much and was treated to badly to ever live like that again.

I at one time thought my ex wife was a good person. We seemed to have the same morals and beliefs. Then it all changed. She became so vain and self centered. Her body became the only important thing to her. She even went as far as to say that she didnt know if she wanted kids, cause it would mess her body up. When i confronted her about the emotional affair that she was having with the married man at the gym. And i asked her how she felt about herself taking away the husband of another woman. She said that she saw nothing wrong with it, cause her and the OM were soul mates. And he and his current wife were not meant for each other. I have Never in the entire 6 yrs i have known her, heard her talk like that. She was seriously against that. So now i dont consider her a good person. Actually i pity her. She wanted to say friends. and i told her i dont like friends like her, so i dont think so.------------------ Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

Hmm - you know....Nellie, some of us lived for years with spouses who mistreated us, and who weren't "decent" people. But we made promises and vows and had children. When our spouses walked out, we were devastated. But then life DID get better, because we found what we had been missing all those years...ourselves. And in the absence of mistreatment, and with the focus on living our own lives, it did get better.Nellie, you may already know, that my H and I have reconciled and we are now in recovery.But you know what?I grieved, really really grieved, for almost a month after making my decision to stop my divorce.I grieved for my still-born dreams and hopes that had been slowly forming as I began to realize what a fog I had been living under in my marriage. I found ME, and I liked her alot. I'd lost her in my marriage under years of emotional abuse - both given and received on both of our parts.I had been moving forward with my life - angry that it had to be that way, but accepting that it was what it was. And I had a sense of profound relief that maybe one day I'd find someone else better suited to me.But when my H came back to me again, and this time put actions unhesitatingly behind his words, I found that I had to go back to my marriage. My vows and the sacrament of matrimony meant something important to me. My children needed their Dad.It's been several weeks since I have felt depressed over my return to my marriage. In fact, in some ways, I'm really encouraged. My H so far, has been a changed man - one that I will be content to be married to, if he stays this way. But Nellie, he was NEVER like this in our almost 11 years of marriage. Some days I find myself looking at him and asking mentally: Who are you and what did you do with H?So, for today, I'm content with our progress and my recovering marriage.Divorce was becoming, in my mind, the beginning of learning to live again.Did I want to be divorced? No.BUT, divorce would NOT have been the end of my happiness. MISERY IS OPTIONAL.------------------ Pain is a given, misery is optional.

I do think my VSTBXH is a decent person.With the right woman, who obeys and agrees and lets him be the master of the house like he feels he should be, I'm sure there wouldn't be the fighting and abuse I went through with him. And I know there are women out there like that. Hope he finds one and is happy.He has a lot of traditional values that are good - opening doors, helping stranded old ladies, wanting to provide 100% of the income so the wife can stay home to cook and clean and keep house. However, his failure to be that provider made him resent me for working (for NEEDING to work so we could survive) and not taking adequate care of the home and his needs like his homemaker mother did.I'm sure he is capable of being a good husband. I am just not the wife to complete that couple.

Yes, I believe my ex was and continues to be a good man. I think he got stuck in the "fog", and is slowly working his way out of it, although not back in my direction. We are able to communicate about our children, and even talk about some personal issues. I think some day, we might actually be friends again.

sing,I am curious - do you think it is possible for a good person to undergo a personality transformation in the absence of illness? If so, how can you ever trust anyone?gsd, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Sometimes it is easier for BS to focus on the betrayal and the negative qualities of his/her spouse. It is easier to let go when you believe in your heart that you are better off without the person.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you have hit the nail on the head. Nduli2,I am convinced that the "something special" in my H is still there, somewhere.Jill,My H was sometimes hard to live with, but then, so were my kids occasionally. As I said somewhere else, I would take my H back if he asked.Bioman,Which one is the "real" her? The one you knew for six years, or the alien one?Bramblerose,I am happy for you that you are in recovery.I guess I never felt like I was lost - I was reasonably happy with who I was. I felt like we were quite well suited to each other in most respects. We shared many goals and interests. Our marriage was not idyllic, but we seemed closer to each other than many, if not most, couples we knew. TLC,I don't remember how long you have been married. I take it you are saying you are incompatible - how long did that take to discover? My H and I were compatible for almost 25 years - you'd think that would be long enough to know if you were compatible. db713,I am glad he is working his way out of the fog. My H and I have never had a problem talking about the children, in person anyway. I doubt the OW would be enthusiastic about my H and I being friends.

Nellie:Well, I post now and then when the topic fits. You are right that there are probably only a handful of people in my situation.

There is only one word that comes to my mind when asked to discribe my wife that would not be censored. Evil.

My wife is a wonderful person, actually one of the sweetest people I've ever met. And that's not just my own characterization of her. That word "sweet" is almost invariably the term I have heard other people use to describe her.That's why her actions have been such a shock even to people who have seen this kind of thing happen again and again.Here's an interesting passage from M. Scott Peck's <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/068484723X/qid=998104861/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/102-6463737-1296108" TARGET=_blank>Further Along the Road Less Traveled</A>: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For most of us, if there is evidence around us that might point to our own sin and imperfection, if that evidence pushes us up against the wall, we usually come to recognize that something is wrong and we make some kind of self-correction. Those who do not I call "people of the lie" because one of their distinguishing characteristics is their ability to lie to themselves, as well as to others, and to insist on being ignorant of their own faults or wrongdoing. Their guiding motive is to feel good about themselves, at all costs, at all times, no matter what evidence there may be that points to their sin or imperfection. Rather than using it to make some kind of self-correction, they will instead--often at great expense of energy--set about trying to exterminate the evidence. They will use all the power at their disposal to impose their wills onto someone else in order to protect their own sick selves. And that is where most of their evil is committed, in that inappropriate extermination, that inappropriate blaming.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sound familiar? Only when my wife stops lying to herself will she again be the person everyone knew. Until then, she has already demonstrated that calumny and fraud are not beyond her.It is amazing what people will do when they are afraid.As for me, I still intend to remain faithful. I believe in the power of God, and I believe in my wife's spirit. I have no doubt that she has what it takes to overcome her inner demons, if she chooses to stop running from herself.

I think that my position is pretty clear to those that know me. I love my XW dearly, she is a great person...ordinarily. Right now she is obviously very depressed, and blaming the world for her woes, I think. It doesn't matter, however, because she is in her own reality...her version of the truth, to use your words.The truths you refer to...they are subjective, Nellie1, as sad a realization as that is, it is the truth! The universal truths, I believe that you are speaking of, are not truths at all, but values. Even there, they cannot, and certainly do not extend to everyone, at least not in the same way. Everyone has to take their own meaning from everything, even a thing that you feel only has one meaning...yours. Well, most every one else feels that way, too! You represent information to yourself through filters that you have either created, or were created for you...but you filter everything nonetheless. So, truth cannot be universal, and the best that two people can hope for it to be able to see things with the others senses, and sensibility. There need not be agreement all of the time, but to reach into someone else's reality, and be able to see their truth, that is that elusive connection that we all wish we had again. I am not angry at my XW, I miss my friend, lover, and wife, that's all. I do hope that she is able to see this particular truth as I do someday, I just don't see any evidence of her doing that right now, even though she looks/seems worse now than she did ever in our marriage....but, see as true as that seems to be to me, it is not so evidently true to her. That's what keeps us apart. Her truth and my truth are not the same. -Mike[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited August 18, 2001).]

Hey Nellie:I'm glad to see you posting again! I know your feelings about things not getting better and in the past year+ I've agreed with you many times. My divorce was final this past Monday. I've tried really hard not to think about it! It's just too damn sad.I will always love my WS (as I believe he will me)! He gave me two beautiful children. I was his first! I chose him to spend the rest of my life with. So, yes, he WAS a good person! I just think he got depressed and didn't know how to cope with that. Had he been on antidepressants, the affair would have never happened (his words, not mine)....

I do have to say that I hate him at this point also. He had TOTALLY fuc#$ed up the lives of my children and myself for his selfish ways! It might be different if the OW was all that, but that is not the case! When my girls are older and know the truth, I really will feel sorry for their father! Until then, I will try to protect the girls from the ugliness of what their father has become and the DEVIL that their father has turned to!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nellie1: TLC, I don't remember how long you have been married. I take it you are saying you are incompatible - how long did that take to discover? My H and I were compatible for almost 25 years - you'd think that would be long enough to know if you were compatible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I met my VSTBXH in '92 right before my dad died. We married in '93 and had kids in '95 and '97 ... obviously it wasn't ALL fighting ... but it wasn't so much discovering we were incompatible as discovering how much abuse I could take and how much was too much. We share a lot of moral, political, and child rearing beliefs. I just don't share the idea that I must submit/obey or pay the penalty with my mental health.

Nellie,My ex was not a decent person. He was usually mad about something. Plus he was mean a lot of the time.BUT...I believed in being married only once and tried to stick it out. Some people thought I was a fool for marrying him. I tried to prove to them and myself that I could make my marriage work no matter what. If he hadn't had an affair and left, I know in my heart that I would still be with him.If he came to me now (and he did once not too long ago) and wanted to come home, I would tell him no. (and I did). I don't want to go back to my life before. He's still drinking all the time and doing drugs. There isn't anything different about him. I can't do that to myself or my kids. He damaged me too much emotionally and physically. Mitzi [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

You might think this is corny, but I actually TRIED LIKE HELL to hate my EX H. But putting all the cheatting aside, he was and is a wonderfull man. He's kind, carring, never been in jail, doesn't drink, doesn't do drugs, never raised his hand to me, never even called me a *****, always held down a job and took excelent care of me. We were and are STILL best friends. I know him better than anyone on this plannet and him me. We had to stop talking because we just couldn't get over each other, but now we're talking again and he wants to try very hard to put our lives back together. It's been almost a year since he left. People always asked me why I took him back? For all those reasons. I just couldn't take the hurt of him cheating. He's a VERY good looking man and was always being hit on by other women. He just couldn't say no. It came to the point that he was putting MY life in danger by doing this and since he wasn't going to stop, I needed to get away from him. So the answer to your question is, YES, YES, YES. If he ever gets help for his problem, the next woman that gets him is going to get a beautiful man inside and out.

There isn't an easy answer to this question. As someone else wrote, "decent" definitely is a subjective assessment. My strong opinion is that very few people in the world deliberately act to hurt others. In fact, I'd say that probably less than 1% of the population are "evil" - or for purposes of this discussion, deliberately act to hurt others for their own gain, with no sense of personal remorse or guilt.I do think, however, that MANY people rationalize to extremes, especially when in an affair. Everyone needs to be able to look at themselves in the mirror every morning, and avoid razor blade to wrists at every opportunity. I think that if many of these waywards could be objective about what they're doing, it would destroy them. Denial is a defense mechanism. Sometimes it's a temporary "fog" that keeps them mostly deluded during the affair, and sometimes it's lack of character that keeps them from ever looking inside to evaluate or change their behavior. In my opinion, both are equally prevalent in these situations. I don't think Harley emphasizes enough the reasonable likelihood (again, I say 50%) that someone that's having an affair, and chooses deliberately to continue it without any remorse, suffers from major character defects that probably always existed and are unlikely to change. If the problem exists within the wayward, there is nothing that the betrayed can do to change the situation. I'll put myself out on a limb here, and suggest that during marriage to this kind of person, there likely was very little emotional intimacy since the person has major trouble communicating their needs in a positive manner.I think Harley suggests a two year wait because it's difficult to discriminate between those "lost in love" during the heat of the affair, and those that are truly "lost" and don't have the character to ever look at themselves and make changes. Two years gives the person time to show which is most likely. Frankly, I think it will be a cold day in **** before my husband ever apologizes for his behavior and we're now three years into his affair. I don't think it's that he's not "decent", but more likely he's taking the easiest path for him, the one that allows him to avoid personal suffering for what he has done. He's not strong enough to deal with himself. In a way, he is to be pitied. I'm very glad to be rid of him as he could easily have become a lifetime project if he came back when my arms were still open (and with my far greater awareness as a result of having lived through this). And I am just the type to make that kind of commitment. Thank G-d I'm out of it.Character becomes obvious only during the critical times in life, which is probably why so many of us went so long without seeing this in our spouses. It's always easy to do what you want. It takes personal strength and conviction to take a course of action that isn't what "feels good", but which your mind and conscience tells you is the right course. I think almost everyone that visits this site does exactly that.One final point. There is a difference between taking the difficult route in order to achieve an objective (character)and sacrificing a life for someone that doesn't deserve it (martyrdom). Betrayeds can be in as much denial as waywards. That's why I like the two year rule.

GnomedePlume, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It is amazing what people will do when they are afraid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think this is very true.Distressed, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I don't think Harley emphasizes enough the reasonable likelihood (again, I say 50%) that someone that's having an affair, and chooses deliberately to continue it without any remorse, suffers from major character defects that probably always existed and are unlikely to change. If the problem exists within the wayward, there is nothing that the betrayed can do to change the situation. I'll put myself out on a limb here, and suggest that during marriage to this kind of person, there likely was very little emotional intimacy since the person has major trouble communicating their needs in a positive manner.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think that there are a number of other explanations besides long-standing character defects. Aside from the fact that I don't think you could hide those for a quarter of a century, one explanation that comes to mind is the feeling on the part of the WS that he has dug himself into a hole so deep he can't climb out. Sometimes I get the feeling that my H is punishing himself. In my case, I think that our marriage had at least a normal amount of emotional intimacy. I think that what he had problems with was his feelings of failure. One one occasion when we were discussing finances, he said that he was afraid that he had screwed up his life so badly that it could never be fixed.

Forsaken,I am sorry to hear that. Waiting_for_her,This is probably just a matter of semantics, but I do not believe that there is such a thing as "universal truths." When I talk about truth, I would limit it to potentially observable fact - eg. the truth of a statement such as "I was not exceeding the speed limit," is something that, even if it was not observed, potentially could have been. Everything else I would call beliefs.

Trapped Mom, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Had he been on antidepressants, the affair would have never happened (his words, not mine)....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think this is the reason that, while the Harley methods may well improve the quality of relationships, I think "emotional needs" have little to do with affairs. Hunny_Bear,My H also was a very good man. I think that there is a strong possibility that the guilt will eventually destroy him. Mitzi,I think it all comes back to depression - there is a strong relationship between addictions of any kind and depression, as I am sure you know. Unfortunately, the addictions, whether to drink, drugs, or the OW, just make the problems 100x worse.

xxx

[ June 02, 2004, 02:31 AM: Message edited by: skye ]

I don't know if depression can be considered the cause of a affair. It may contribute to the persons need for happiness but in my situation it wasn't the cause.I know my EX is in MLC. He shows ALL the signs. I also know he has suffered from varying degrees of depression for many years. I had tried to get him to go to a doctor but he wouldn't. After the first affair and during recovery he finally went and was given prozac. He was a new man, one I hadn't seen in years. It didn't stop affair number 2 though. He was still searching for something. All the prozac did was to make him less sensitive to the hurt he was causing us all which is very common for people who take prozac. You get kind of a whatever feeling. Perhaps someday when he starts coming out of MLC and his new marriage starts getting old he will realize just what he has done and suffer from it. I hope he does, if he never does it really shows that he definately has some seriouse character flaws.My secret wish is for his new wife to dump him for someone else. She has done it before and I hope it happens! I want him to feel what I felt. Nasty? Maybe but payback is a ***** or so they say.Jill

I might be a little late to the party but here's my take.My wife is a wonderful person. If we weren't married I would gladly call her my friend and probably have quite a crush on her. She is beautiful, funny and smart and if we don't get back together someone else will be just as lucky as I have been to call her their wife.But(you knew this was coming) she grew up with a great family, they just didn't talk about major issues. She grew up that way and continued that in our marriage. She'll tell you that she tried to save our marriage, and maybe to her way of dealing with things she did. But, she's a runner. She was the best student in HS, college and grad school, and everyone thought she was going places. But when things weren't easy for her, rather than accept it as a challenge, she stopped trying. I think she though that because her parents have been married over 30 years, and they just seemed to click that all marriages should be just like that. She's even said before that marriage and love should just be natuaral and not require work. Things are bad between us right now, and I accept my 50%, but rather than try to work them out, which is very hard, she decided instead to leave. Because everything came easy to her and this isn't easy.Right now I feel very sorry for her and the issues she's dealing with. She's running from them as well. But she's a magnificent person and I love her deeply.

skye,Nice to hear from you again.It is easier to see "signs" in retrospect, but I wonder if signs might have been present in anyone if you looked for them. If you heard that someone whom you had known well when younger had an affair at midlife, perhaps you would be able to think of signs, now that you know the outcome.No matter what signs may have been there about other things, even in retrospect I saw ABSOLUTELY no sign that would have indicated that my H would have nearly abandoned his children like has. That is the part that I find most devastating. Even now, every once in awhile it looks like he is about to cry. Unfortunately, although I can think of a couple of things to look out for, I really have no confidence that I could advise my children, or be able to pick out someone who would remain faithful. Jill,Some psychiatrists believe that MLC is just depression that happens to occur at midlife.I thought you had mentioned at one time that you thought the Prozac had stopped working around the time the second affair began. Unfortunately, from what I have read it seems that treatment of depression is far from an exact science.Personally, I think I would rather have my H dump the OW than the other way around.

sad_but_true,I think FOO issues are often a major factor - which is one reason that divorce is so horrible. No matter what, my kids have seen their father largely abandon them, and that is not something from which I think they can ever fully recover, even if he were to come back tomorrow. If he stays with the OW permanently, it scares me to even think about the effect on our children. I think my H has always been scared to disturb those who love him - I think on some level he equates anger with abandonment. It wasn't really obvious that he was a conflict avoider because he was far from that at work and with other people with whom he dealt - but I guess he didn't care if they loved him or not.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nellie1: I think FOO issues are often a major factor<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OK, I have to plead ignorance here. What is/are FOO issues?

xxx

[ June 02, 2004, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: skye ]

Nellie,Yes, at one time I did wonder if my EX prozac was no longer helping him. He says he is still taking it and still feels great. I often question if he suffers from bi-polar disorder. He used to have alot of highs and lows. Or maybe the plain truth of it is he just couldn't stand being married to me anymore. I can except that as I now know I was feeling the same way most of the time. I sometimes think my fight to save my marriage was a ego thing for me. Like I've said before I have been doing alot of self analizing lately. But! That doesn't excuse what he did and how he has treated me the past few years. I stick to my guns and hope that the new wife leaves him someday. What goes around comes around.For your sake I hope your EX does get his senses back and leave the OW. It sounds to me though that he ran away from all responsibility and is now living free of everything. Almost like a kid who quits collage because he can't stand the stresses of it anymore and goes back home to live rent free. If he ever comes back have you ever thought about what changes you will make. You have now been the sole provider for the family, could you again live with making joint decisions? Have you looked back and seen what went wrong. What mistakes you made and how to change yourself. I'm still in the process. I don't want my EH back again I just don't respect him anymore. There is only so many times one can get thrown away. I am though working on how to make my next relationship better whenever that will be. I believe in marriage! If I didn't I would not have stayed in mine and fought for mine. But I know that times have changed women can make it on their own now. I hope I do marry someday again but this time I won't be so naive to the problems. What is scarey is that most of the men my age are all in that MLC age. Hugs,Jill

sad_but_true,Sorry - FOO is family of origin.skye,I am glad for you that you like yourself better now. I am not trying to argue with you, but my experience has been quite different. Unfortunately, I was reasonably happy with who I was before. I am sure there was plenty of room for improvement, but I never felt incomplete in any way. I felt reasonably competent. Our kids were growing up to be responsible adults. Most importantly, they felt loved by both their parents. I understand that life has no guarantees, in the "act of God" sense. I know that disasters can happen at any moment. But if you can't trust someone whom you have known all your adult life, what is the point of putting your trust in anyone? There has to be some predictability in life - otherwise life is completely pointless. If there is no predictability at all, you can not learn, you can not improve. If you lead a good life, you can still get hit by a Mack truck - that is not unfair, just unfortunate. If the police were to arrest you and throw you in jail for a murder you did not commit - that would be unfair. Say you could impart to your children an extensive base of knowledge of how to pick a good spouse, MB principles, etc. Say they picked a spouse based on all the right reasons, treated him as well as humanly possible, etc. Unfortunately, there is, I believe, well over a 50% chance that he will have an affair and leave. As I said once before, a long time ago, would you buy a house that had a 50% chance of falling down within the next twenty years?What is the point of getting married and having kids if you know that there is an excellent chance that their father will suddenly stop caring about them, and that they in turn will have little chance of becoming productive, loving, responsible parents? And even if they are, that they can wake up one morning and no longer care about their kids? Life is basically predictable. Life is all about how if you do something and it has a positive result, doing it again will likely have the same result. That is how all societies, human, gorilla, finch, survive. There is a strong selective advantage to learning from mistakes, learning to repeat what works, learning to trust - trust is essential. There is a biological basis for our need to trust. If that delicious berry over there doesn't make you sick, you learn that you can eat it the next time you see it. If you never knew when a berry that you had been eating for years would suddenly kill you, an animal that was better at learning would hold no selective advantage over one who just ate berries randomly. Species, such as humans, that depend more on learned skills would never have evolved. I am convinced that there has to be a reason for the prevalence of MLC, not that I have a clue what it is. On the face of it, there is no selective advantage to deserting your family at an age when distributing your genes to other descendants has become less likely - although leaving for a younger woman might be an exception. I can not see why there is a selective advantage to depression - that would seem to be counter-intuitive - unless the gene for depression is linked to some other gene, such as a gene for intelligence - which may well be likely. Depression seems to be becoming more common - perhaps it is just not selected against so strongly anymore. Many years ago, if your survival depended upon you having the initiative to get up in the morning to go kill some prey, people who were subject to depression might not survive long enough to pass on their genes.I know we have a basic difference in our beliefs on this, but as someone whose first love (academically speaking) has always been evolutionary biology, I am convinced that there does need to be a certain predictability to life. The prevalence of infidelity and destroyed families is an indication, I believe, of something that has gone terribly awry in our society.

Jill,I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out what I could have done differently, what went wrong, trying to understand why I was unable to predict this. Shortly after he left I said something to him about how I never imagined he could do something that would hurt the kids so much - and he just shook his head, in understanding(?). Perhaps he could not understand it himself. With respect to decision-making, one of the many issues now is that I feel so powerless. We used to make major decisions jointly - now I feel I have little input anymore. When he was at home, he was supportive of homeschooling. As an example of the change since he left, he forced me to put one of our kids in school, and indirectly (via financial pressure due to his unemployment) forced me to put two others in as well - where one in particular is absolutely miserable. In effect, an additonal piece of my decision-making power has been handed over to the school system. One of the many things I would welcome if he came back is that we could make decisions jointly, as a team, again, rather than the feeling that I have now, which is more like belong to opposing parties, but once in awhile happen to agree on something. Yes, my H ran away from responsibility. Although I believe that he had felt a sense of failure for several years, and probably believed that I also believed he had failed, I am convinced that something died in him the day of my nephew's funeral - something precipitated a horrible descent into depression. My guess is that it was fear of loss - it hit home how easily and suddenly you can lose a child. I think he tried to close off his emotions completely, to protect himself from that fear.

There is a finite list of possibilities to explain the behavior of an infidel that lacks empathy and takes no responsibility. I listed the two most likely, in my view, 1) temporary insanity based on the "in-love" state, which can override logic, and 2) character defects within the infidel that prevent him from being objective, taking responsibility, feeling guilt, exuding empathy or becoming introspective. My bet is these two cover nearly the entire spectrum.Some small percentage are impacted by things like ongoing depression, which definitely exists. An infidel that takes no action to address his depression is responsible for its continuance (in other words, it's still failure to take responsibility). Again, I'm not talking about short-term situations, but when it goes on for years untreated, it becomes a choice.There are only two other possibilities I can think of. The first is some sort of mental illness/mental breakdown. It is possible that someone that once could differentiate between right and wrong no longer can. I think it's quite rare, but it does happen. The last possibility is that we (the betrayed) are wrong (or dishonest) in our evaluation of what's happened. In other words, perhaps the infidel has actually apologized or shown remorse but we've denied hearing it. Or maybe we are really so awful that righteously running away from us is a logical choice that any sane person would make, and continuing to punish us is necessary to keep us from further abusing the infidel. I doubt that happens often either, but maybe once in a very long while (this is a major stretch, but I bet there are some infidels that rationalize with this line of thinking).I understand your comment that fear of failure can play a role in the escapist behavior of your husband. This is quite likely, along with the financial motive. But it doesn't explain his lack of empathy toward you or the children for this amount of time. I think that comes back to character.This entire discussion leads me back to the comment I've periodically heard "you have to be insane to commit a murder". To a certain extent, that's true. But how often does the killer lose his ability to distinguish right from wrong prior to the act? Legally, hardly ever. It's possible, but extremely rare.One part of this is crystal clear to me. Whether it's one of the primary causes I've listed or whether it is mental illness, it is beyond the control of the betrayed. After a period of time, the betrayed must let go or his/her life will be uselessly sacrificed as well. As Skye wrote, you have to deal with "what is", then you can become free.You've read my comments before, but I'll reiterate for the many reading this thread, that I don't think the bad behavior of one parent necessarily means the kids will be screwed up. Most kids need only one really good parent. That parent is us. Learning about what not to do is occurring in kids living through this. It's not how we would choose to do it, but it's our reality and not everything about it is bad. I think my kids are in great shape and at this point, so am I.

xxx

[ June 02, 2004, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: skye ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Distressed: I do think, however, that MANY people rationalize to extremes, especially when in an affair.... Denial is a defense mechanism. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My experience is bearing this out. My wife, in preparing to leave me, tried her best to convince me that we would both be happier for it. "I'm making you uncomfortable being here" was one thing she said- well, yes, I'm uncomfortable now, but if you'd stop calling your real estate agent, I'd feel a lot more comfortable. I've also heard her say "my friend tells me the kids will be fine. Her kids love going to their dad's house, and love going to her house." Yeah, right, like her friend is going to say "I screwed up my children." My wife is, at core, a decent, caring individual. That core is lost in a fog right now; the only reason I can bear this is the knowledge that the decent, caring woman I married is still in there somewhere, and something may just bring her back to the surface.

Distressed, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Some small percentage are impacted by things like ongoing depression, which definitely exists. An infidel that takes no action to address his depression is responsible for its continuance (in other words, it's still failure to take responsibility). Again, I'm not talking about short-term situations, but when it goes on for years untreated, it becomes a choice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I guess where we really disagree is about the percentage impacted by depression or other mental illness - I believe that this percentage is very high. Awhile ago I read an article by a psychiatrist who postulated that in cases where a man suddenly left a long-term marriage for an OW, it was close to 100%.I agree that seeking treatment for depression is their responsibiity, but I do think that in most cases they are making a conscious choice not to.It am certain that much of my H's withdrawal from the kids is related to the conflict between what the kids want (primarily to see more of him) and what the OW wants (which usually involves having him spend less time with them and more doing whatever she wants him to be doing). Unfortunately, she usually wins. I suspect he is scared at a very basic level - scared of conflict, and scared of being left all alone. In some twisted way he may even see staying with her as essential to his being able to provide any monetary support to the kids. Obviously I think his lack of response to the children's needs is harmful and wrong, but I do not believe it is merely random meanness.What worries me is not just the children's response now, but the impact that abandonment by their father will have on them throughout their adult lives and on their relationships with other people. There is a lot of evidence for a severe "sleeper effect." I was watching Grease last night - at one point one of the characters says, "The only man you can trust is your Daddy," - it is devastating when even that is not true.

Skye,I posted to you earlier and then my computer froze. I'll have to look up the book you mentioned next time I go to the library. Even though we don't always agree, I find your posts very interesting and well thought out.Regarding the collapsing house analogy, for me it would be a matter of risk analysis. If there were only chance that the house would fall down, or if I could be reasonably sure that the house would "give some warning" before it collapsed so that I could repair it - which is of course the case with houses - then I would go ahead and buy it. However, if I knew that there was a 50% chance that one morning I would wake up and find myself sitting in rubble, I would definitely not buy it. From what I have seen in my sister's kids, divorce wrecks major havoc with their adult lives. Not one of them was not seriously emotionally harmed, in my opinion, and in several cases the damage did not really show up until they were adults. I agree that the fact that there are few negative consequences to adultery today is terribly damaging to the fabric of society. dabigtrain,My H said something similar - that the children would be "better later" even though he admitted that they were suffering at that time, shortly after he had left. In fact, the opposite occurred.