I guess you could call this a catharsis of sorts. I have been absent from MB (for the most part, although lurking a bit and posting occasionally), and trying to work on "me"... boring, boring stuff! Well, to everyone but me, anyhow! <P>I have come to some conclusions, and one of them is a direct result of Nellie's thread about ex's being "good people." My ex is a valuable person, and I could call him "good" in some ways. By in the end, especially at the end, he was absolutely horrible for me. However, there were good times, and I loved him for a long time.<P>I thought it might be nice to talk about how things with us are now, at this moment. If nobody writes a response, that's okay... this is for me, most of all. However, if it touches you in any way, feel free to comment.<P>Well, can't really use a face, and can't really use a face... I guess it's a middle face, one yet to be developed.<P>We are apart, not only legally, but by milage -- 4000 miles to be exact. I've seen him twice in the last year; once at Christmas, and once last month. He looks bad. <P>He has "woman problems" of his own making, and I'm sure not about to go into big detail about that, except to say that he hasn't learned a thing about how to maintain a relationship. I think that's sad.<P>I called him this morning, to discuss our 17 yr. old son, who is living with him. I'd heard from our son's school counselor today, which, as you can imagine, is odd, since I live 4000 miles away and his dad is in the neighborhood. There's a reason. Dad doesn't "get it"... and the school understands that. So they email me and call me, 4000 miles away. I wish Dad "got it"... sigh... but since he doesn't, I talked to the school and then called his dad. Radical Honesty even still, for me anyhow.<P>This weekend was my neice's 4th birthday, and my ex was invited. My family keeps trying to tell him that he is a part of the family, despite the divorce. He thinks they should all be cut off with a sharp knife because legally they aren't his family anymore. I told him, long ago, that a piece of paper won't stop me from loving his parents. He never "got" that either. Until this weekend. He had to go, to take our daughter, who is beginning a job as my neice's nanny. She's left the nest, into another nest, in a way. A very safe landing. I thank God for that. But back to my ex... he was welcomed with open arms, and he doesn't understand how that is, but he is thankful. <P>So, this morning when I talked to my ex, he told me that it's still hard to hear my voice, and on some days, he simply doesn't want to talk to me. So, like yesterday, when the counselor wrote me an email, I called him, and he didn't answer. I think he'll be missing out on some important things he needs to know, but that's his problem, I guess.<P>We are NOT friends, and I'd really hoped we could be. We are NOT enemies either. We are ex-spouses who still have some contact because of our children. I don't know if we lived closer together if things would be different. I suspect so. I do know, without a doubt, that we would have NO RELATIONSHIP whatsoever, if not for my efforts. He still wants to punish me, and he still doesn't "get it" why the marriage ended... but that's okay for now. We're communicating, and we're going forward.<P>My H's ex is another story altogether, and I don't talk about that much. I will say, however, that we've spent a few days with them, my H and I, and she and her H, and their kids, of course... bar-b-q'ing and visiting. I'd hesitate to call us "friends" but it's about as friendly as you can imagine. Awkward, at times, but I think it might be good for their kids to see that nobody *hates* each other.<P>So, in the end, a relationship can be built with your ex, even under the worst of conditions, and life can go on. I think we all "know" that, but some of us wonder if anything can ever be built with someone who hurt us so horribly.<P>Wishing us all the best (took that from Zippy!)<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Wow! I was just reflecting on my marriage, my ex etc...too. My ex has been pretty good for a few months now so I really hope that it's a developing pattern. If you would have asked me a few months ago how I felt about him I could have honestly said that I hated him. He was so terrible then (mostly in regards to his kids). Lately he is reestablishing a relationship with his family and I think that is what made such a huge difference. He also seems to be happy in his relationship with his girlfriend of 5 years....finally. I guess they plan to marry next year and they just recently put their home up for sale. They have purchased some land and are building a home. So, after years of either not seeing his children or mistreating them to get even with me he's starting to be a father to them again. Instead of using his girlfriend as a rebound affair and staying with her out of fear of being alone I think he's becoming comfortable with her being his partner. We don't communicate with each other and I'm not sure we ever will but I don't "hate" him anymore.

Hi Bonnie,<P>I think you and I are in a similiar situation, and therefore can understand each other, in ways that others may not yet understand. <P>I am by no means in a happy relationship with my ex, but it's tolerable, and that's better than it has been for months, if not years (even during the marriage, esp. at the end).<P>Thanks for the response, and I wish you peace in your marriage, and with your ex, as well.

I am at such an odd place it's not even funny. My ex and I actually still love each other very deeply. But we have have also hurt each other so deeply that neither one of us is prepared to even try to repair it. She is getting married to OM in a few hours. I am trying to be strong and not show the hurt this causes. She knows. She still wants to be friends though. She actually plays and jokes with me every time we see each other. Which is everyday, I pick the kids up every evening. Odd huh?<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Don't know your story Paul, but it seems to me that she should at least be told how you feel. Actually, I remember something. Didn't she have a baby by another man? Is it the OM she is getting married too?

Paul,<P>Amanda HAS to make HER OWN mistakes... you love her, and you want to help her, but you CANNOT. She MUST HIT BOTTOM.<P>I am so sorry for your pain -- and doubly sorry she's marrying the guy already.<P>She loves you, maybe him, and let's face it, she's been "cheating" on him by making love to you. WHAT A MESS.<P>Paul, hang tough and get the great big kleenex ready... she'll be back, and hopefully not too damaged.<P>Big ol' platonic hugs!!

The deed is done. She got married at 7:00pm. I cried from 6:30 till 7:15. Now I feel back to ok. I imagine I shall be on yet another roller coaster, but I think this one will fade over time. Thank you for the hug, I've needed lots lately.

Paul, oh Paul... I'm so sorry.<P>I'm sorry for your tears, and for the pain you are feeling. <P>I wish I could say something that will help to heal, but I'm afraid there are no words...<P>You know, I was going over some old postings of mine (when I was new_beginning) and you were there, my friend, right from the beginning, helping me. I was just someone on these boards, and I remembered you 18 months later, when you came back several months ago. You made an impression on me!!<P>I will stick with my original statement: Amanda MUST hit rock bottom. If, for some reason, she doesn't, and you are left alone, you will heal after some time of grieving, and you will get stronger... <P>...and maybe... down the road, you will find a wife who will appreciate you, and treat you with love and respect. <P>But until then -- you keep on crying, and thinking, and remembering... it's okay, and it's NATURAL. <P>Be good to Paul, he's a really good guy.

My relationship with my ex is VERY unfriendly! <P>I see him about 2 times a year, which is when he comes to see the kids (he lives 10 minutes away.) He looks angry when I do see him and even told the boys that I was the one who wanted the divorce!! ????? I am very civil to him. (almost friendly.) <P>When he does see me, he refuses to talk to me about anything concerning the boys. He wants me to write him letters about it! LOL No, I won't do that. If he wants to know, he'll ask from now on. <P>I still see his family often. As a matter of fact, his family reunion was this past weekend. An aunt of his from out of town told me that I should have went to the reunion. I told her it would have been too awkward with EX and his woman there! LOL She also told me that people were asking EX where his wife was! LOL LOL They've told me that I'll always be more a part of their family than his girlfriend is. <P>Mitzi

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Mitz.<P>Everyone is sure different -- and I wish none of us had to go through this at all.<P>I am also very friendly with David, and he really doesn't know what to do with that, because he wants to hate me (according to the kids) but he can't -- I'm being too nice!<P>I know it sounds silly now, but truly, I didn't want to hurt him. I just wanted to protect myself, in the end of the marriage.<P>I'm sorry it is so unfriendly though... that's just stressful in its own way.

Sheryl,<P>You said,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I called him this morning, to discuss our 17 yr. old son<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are so fortunate to be able to do this, instead of the way it goes for me - having to wait until the next time I see him, perhaps a week or so later, or use email, which he may or may not get in a timely fashion, and which he may not answer. <P>It is so d*** difficult to co-parent this way, yet I am required to discuss child-related issues with him - required by law, and by the fact that it is the right thing to do.

Hi Nellie,<P>Believe me, if David had his way, he'd NEVER talk to me. But something inside of him knows that it's the right thing to do to discuss our children, esp. our son, who is still a minor. <P>I'd called two weeks ago, and he refused to speak to me, so I gave the message to my oldest daughter (so unfair to put her in the middle, but I needed him to know something).<P>He has fits and starts about communication. He says it's because he misses me, etc. I don't know the truth of it... I just want to keep the lines of communication open.<P>So, I do get the situation you describe occasionally... but again, I'm not the one who is at home with the children (as you are) trying to get the other parent involved. In my case, my ex is the one at home trying to keep me out.

Hey Sheryl,<P>Great Topic!!!<P>I almost posted something a few days ago on the same. <P>Valerie has continually called me every two weeks most recently for some of the silliest things. We don't have children together and there is really no need for contact. She wanted out. She got it. I wouldn't consider her a friend because no friend of mine lies or deceives me. I am **friendly** towards her because I did/do love her and did M her. The only stuff left here is her gym junk. I could have had it delivered the next day back in January when she first asked. She wanted to come down with Brian a few weeks ago and asked if I would be here. Um... no!!! Don't need to see them together. "Don't you want to see me"? Negative Ghost Rider... pattern is full.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>Wishing us all the best (took that from Zippy!)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I want the proceeds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>For my favorite charity, of course.<P>Me.

Hey Zip - How's everything? Hope you and Gina are doing well.<P>Marsha<P>Sorry to hijack the thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEDIC238:<BR><B> I want the proceeds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>For my favorite charity, of course.<P>Me. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ZIPPY!! Cool I quoted you, and here you are!!<P>As far as the proceeds... um... no, as in NO! No proceeds. Bad proceeds. LOL<P>Glad all is going zippily along for you too, my man!! Say hi to Gina (Hi Gina )<P>Sheryl <P>

Hey Marsha and Sheryl,<P>Yeppers, life couldn't be better for me. I'm not here as much because... well... I have moved on in life. Of course I still lurk and post when I feel I can provide some help.<P>That and G and I have been working on her new house for the last 4 weeks knocking walls down, totally replacing the wiring and making it a great place.<P>I have never been this happy in the last 13 years. I still can't believe that I was such a sad sack back in March of '99 and now this. Val found her "true love" but I am in a much better place than she will ever be. Life is sucking big time for her. She got fired from the dental office, was denied unemployment, has no job and is totally bummed out. Guess Brian can't provide the answers.<P>She called two weeks ago asking "I want to know how you do it"? She can't get a car loan for $6,000 and I got my new shiney red D present. "Um... too bad... how sad... Have a coke and a smile and shut the **** up, honey!!!! You wanted it this way and you got it". OK, so I didn't say that **out loud**, but I thought it. <P>G says HI back. We should have her 'puter up and running soon.<P>The Village Idiot has found happiness again!!!<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Tim

Hi guys,<P>can I jump on too?<P>So glad to hear you're doing well Sheryl, you too Tim.<P>Well, as for little ole me, I'm doing great. Still doing my "man free" year (thank goodness it's nearly up!! wink wink)<BR>and feeling fine about everything.<P>My relationship with ex is civil and cordial, even to the point where we recently spent 1/2 a day together for eldest D's b'day. She wanted to start the day off with a barbecue breakfast, and wanted to invite her Daddy. I told her she could ring and invite him, so she did, and he came. We then took 8 of her little friends ten pin bowling. Had a great time. He even paid for half the bowling party!!!<P>He has moved in with his gf, which says to me that he is moving forward at a great pace of knots, but never seems happy. He's still working incredibly long hours (which was one of the main problems within our marriage) and now he has the added stress of juggling gf, work and a family in a divorced situation. Can't be easy for him. I wonder when he spends time just on himself........ which he desparately needs. That is not MY problem tho anymore........<P>Days can go by and I don't speak to him, because there is no need. If I have anything to say about the children I just pick up the phone and call. He still calls most every night to speak to the girls.<P>All in all, everything seems to have settled down beautifully.<P>Although, get this. He was listed with my company as the person who received cheap travel/benefits as my partner!!! I did this way back because he was helping me so much with the childcare, it was something nice I could do for him - sort of a thank-you. Well, he doesn't really help out anymore with the childcare, wouldn't stay overnight when I had an early ( I CAN understand that one!!!) so I've hired a nanny. He recently asked whether he could still get travel benefits....... What, with his gf..... Sure, not a problem NOT....... These benefits come up for renewal every year and we have to nominate who is on the list. We've never really discussed it since he stopped helping out so I thought it wasn't an issue.<P>Anyway, that's his life.<P>My life is going great, I'm loving my job, loving living here in Brisbane (that took a while!!!) loving my life and my family and my friends.<P>Have a whingy whiny 3 year old, have to go.......<P>love and hugs to everyone<P>Jo xx <P>I don't think so...........

Hi again Nyneve,<P>now I can finish my post - I've sorted out d.<P>As for my feelings where he is concerned, I still vacilate sometimes. I went through a stage a couple of weeks ago wondering whether I should try and ascertain what his feelings were, and whether there was any hope we would ever get back together.<P>I don't know what brought it on. I just woke up one day and wondered whether I wanted him back in my life.<P>I was too scared to do anything about it. Maybe because I didn't trust what I was feeling. Maybe I was just lonely and **anyone** is better than no-one.<P>Still pondering that occasionally. I must admit I have fears of rejection from him. For so long whenever I asked why he didn't want to work on our marriage, he always said his heart wasn't in it. I have no reason to believe that has changed.<P>Anyway, I still believe he is essentially a good person, albeit a person who got lost for a little while there and threw away everything that should have meant the most to him. I guess I'll never get any answers from him about that.<P>I'm just glad that the girls can see their Mummy and Daddy able to be in the same room and chat, or have a laugh. There is no hatred on my side, and I don't think there is any on his side. And that makes it so much more peaceful all round.<P>He even sent me a **flirty** (in a very loose way) cheeky SMS the other night. Called me "old girl" !!! Not much I know, but if the humour can come back, maybe we can be close<BR>genuinely close.<P>Have to go again<P>Jo

Tim - so life sucks for her?!?!? Oh well!!!!!! What goes around comes around!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!<P>It's good to hear that you and Gina are doing well and enjoying life. Keep up the great work!!!!! <P>Living well is the best revenge!

Howdy Hey Neighbors!!<P>Medic, ya know what bothers me about what you wrote -- well, not about *what* you wrote, per se, but about the "behind the scenes" feelings -- when you said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> "Um... too bad... how sad... Have a coke and a smile and shut the **** up, honey!!!! You wanted it this way and you got it". OK, so I didn't say that **out loud**, but I thought it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It makes me wonder something... are we (as in all of us's who are divorced) EVER gonna <B>not</B> gonna think back to the "you asked for it" mentality? I STILL do it with David too... and here I am, remarried. Why should I care? But I do. That bugs me. <hitting head on desk><P>Hi back to G for her hi to me which was for my hi to her and <P>Bonnet!!!!!! Hi!!!!!!!!<P>Man-free year almost over, eh? WORLD, LOOK OUT! LOL<P>Sounds like you're at the "thoughtful" time we all get to... not angry (unless, like we talked about above, something just ticks ya off), just wondering what might have been, but for the most part, moving forward... slowly...<P>I know about the vacilation too... and WHAT A PAIN. That's why David was able to move in and out three times in a year... I couldn't decide if the pain was worth it, he couldn't decide if he wanted me or church lady (church lady *won* for awhile anyhow -- they broke up -- not really sad, just thought it was the thing to do! )... back and forth we went... until we were SPINNING, baby!! <P>(((((Jo)))))<P>Nice to see ya/read ya... <P>Lady M, <P>Yep, I hear ya... what do you think about what I wrote to Medic/Tim? Does it really make us happy when they (our ex's) fall/fail????

Hey Sheryl,<P>For what ever reasons [doesn't pertain to the fact of the matter] Valerie and I are now D. I loved this woman enough to M her back in 1994. I truly wish her no harm to this day. I was simply stating facts that since she made the choice [Life is full of choices] to have an A her life has not improved, but has decreased in quality. <P>She calls me for help. I am not the one she should be looking at for assistance. She has Brian now. That's his job. I am out of the picture. She knows that I can pull a rabbit out of a hat and it kills me that I can not with good conscience offer a hand to help her at this point. <P>I feel if I help her I am back in the triangle, things that Brian should be providing. I have moved on as she has wanted.<P>Maybe I am a selfish pr!ck as I could do things for her but...this is the life she wanted.<P>I still care what happens to her. She wanted me out, so I am. I still think about it but I've moved on.<P>That's only me...and I fell down the cellar steps as a kid... so......<P>Zippy

Haven't been around much lately. I can relate to each and every one of these posts a little in each way. Sheryl, I am sorry for what you are going through, but I certainly understand that no smiley/no sad face thing. It is like "eh." Confusing since I spent the entire summer and much of the fall last year consumed by thoughts of him, reconcilation etc. <P>My ex got married two weeks ago. We haven't been divorced a year yet (almost). Only mere months ago he was calling me telling me how much he hated himself etc. He still does the same. The last conversation, three weeks ago, he read me a portion of his new novel (which was just accepted for publication--go figure). The characters were obviously me and him, and our divorce and his feelings about it were reflected there. His feelings of inadquacy as a man/husband, his guilt about leaving, his admiration for me. All of it. He has often said he still writes with my face reflected in his pc. Why? Each time we talk, it is highly charged and emotional. He apologizes and tells me how much he respects me and will always love me. He wants absolution at my emotional expense. Forget it.<P>Funny, he also said (exact words): "Well, it's not that I am uncomfortable getting married..." He just wanted to wait and she pressured him. Hmmm, he used that line with me to excuse his leaving and we dated for three years prior to marriage!<P>I don't hate him, and like Sheryl, don't want to be friends, but also still have the "you asked for it" attitude. I shouldn't care; I am not remarried, not involved with anyone right now, but I still shouldn't care. Maybe it is all the guilt that the WS feels. Isn't it amazing how much guilt there is with all of them! Paul, your wife WILL feel it one day. Too bad she will be married when it all hits her. That will make it more difficult for her.

Hey <B>Zip</B> and <B>gsd</B>,<P>Thanks for the dialogue, <B>Zippy</B>, and for explaining your feelings -- I share them.<P>And <B>gsd</B>, thanks for the commisseration and understanding... I'm right with ya!!<P>Well, we are off for the weekend (dare I tell you it's for our belated honeymoon? ) but my H is still sleeping, so I'm here, and there (making coffee, packing) and here again...<P>So, a quickie reply is in order...<P>Then again, I type really fast, 90 wpm, so maybe it will be a quickie for me to type, but a longie for you to read! <P>I talked to David (my ex) last night about our son. He didn't want to talk, and made that known. He is very angry with me about my involvement. It's a long story, full of history (ours - his and mine) and by the time we were finished I was in tears, he was gloating and pissed, and we had accomplished NOTHING. <P>I am still trying to Plan A, in that, we have to get along, dredging up the past does nobody any good, and is revisionist anyway, so I work very hard to be kind. <P>He is still saying things like, "You're the one who gave up" and I immediately feel like crap -- because I did give up. He had his girlfriend of the moment (actually she last two years!) and yes, I did give up. I gave up, met someone else, and got married. I gave up. There goes the guilt again. <P>But... my life is no longer lived to please him, and the tears I cried last night dried soon enough. I called my H, told him about the conversation, we both called my ex some choice words, I chatted with some girlfriends, and we also called David some choice words, and by the time my H got home, I was pretty much over it.<P>And today we leave for the honeymoon capital of the world (said in my best bullhorn voice)... <P>And my son is being cared for in school (which is all any of us should want, no matter who made sure he is getting the care), and he's HAPPY and feels like his back is being watched. It's a blessing, to be sure.<P>It's a lovely day out there...<P>I have much to be thankful for...<P>Everyone have a nice one!! I know I will!!

The issue for me is not whether he "gets what he deserves," but rather that it feels like the kids and I are "getting what he deserves." We came home from an outing last week and there was a bill waiting in the mailbox from my lawyer - for nearly half again as much as she had estimated - and we only went to court twice. <P>It does feel very very wrong that the kids and I do not have enough money to live on, and my H can potentially never work another day. I'm sure his difficulty finding a job does nothing for his self-esteem, but at least he never has to worry about having a roof over his head or food in his stomach. <P>

Hey girl,<P>where's the honeymoon capital of the world for you??<P>Hope it was absolutely fantastic for you and hubby.<P>Shame about the conversation with David - why can they not ***get it***.........<P>love and hugs<P>Jo

Hi everyone,<P>I haven't been on much lately, lot's of travel, and to be honest I've pretty much gotten over most of all this. The divorce papers should be filed in a couple of weeks, and from there it shouldn't take to long, unless she pulls some wild stunt.<P>I'm still upset with her for doing this, but I realize that it was completely about her and her choices. I still believe that one day she'll regret this decision, but that die has been cast...<P>I've met someone very special and we are slowly getting to know one another. I will take all that I have learned here and apply it to my new relationship and build the kind of commitment to another person that will last forever. I know now that relationships take work, and that both partners have to make that commitment to each other, forever.<P>I only communicate with the VSTBX about my son, and I'm hopeful that as time goes by, that requirement will diminish. I don't actually hate her, but my life would be so much better if she & her boy scout were completely absent from it.<P>I've hurt and I've healed and now I'm moved on.<P>take care...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>I know about the vacilation too... and WHAT A PAIN. That's why David was able to move in and out three times in a year... I couldn't decide if the pain was worth it, he couldn't decide if he wanted me or church lady (church lady *won* for awhile anyhow -- they broke up -- not really sad, just thought it was the thing to do! )... back and forth we went... until we were SPINNING, baby!! <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So why is it I seem to be getting the hard time? <P>GSD: I think her being married will make it rough, I think it already is.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Hi <B>Nellie</B>,<P>I agree that the kids and you should get what you deserve -- however, coming fresh from an argument with David about him getting what he deserves (which in his mind is his girlfriends and to be left alone by me, including talking about our son) I have to say that I hope David gets what he deserves. BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST, my <B>son</B> needs what he deserves, and I wish he could get it from his father, but he can't. SOOOOO... I'm looking at how long it will take to bring him to me, and what kind of stress will it put on an already stressful situation. <P>I agree that it is wrong that you and the kids do not have enough money to live on, and that your H is unemployed, seeminly to never work again. There MUST be some laws about that... call me naive, but doesn't your divorce agreement account for some distribution of assets somewhere? <P>Hi <B>bonnet</B>,<P>Well, my dear girl, it's Niagara Falls!!! Isn't it the Honeymoon Capital of the world??? Maybe it's the Honeymoon Capital of North America, eh??? LOL<P>Yes, it was fantastic and sooooooo relaxing and just... blissful.<P>P.S. I know, about David... I am still very angry with him.<P><B>c00ker</B>!! Hi!! <P>You sound like I want to sound in regard to ex... I'm still fuming about the argument the other night. I want to "not care"... but when it's about your kid, ya know? <P>Nice seeing you, and thanks for the uplifting post!!<P>Now, Mr.<B>Paul Moyers</B>,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So why is it I seem to be getting the hard time? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You, my dear man, are getting the hard time because Amanda is MARRIED to someone else! <P>That makes it a WHOLE OTHER KETTLE O' SOUP, ya know???<P>But, I will say, stranger things have happened than you two getting back together... you just must guard your heart, because she is doing to her new H what she was doing to you. You need to know it is SAFE to be close to her again... that's all...<P>Take care, Paul.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR>Now, Mr.<B>Paul Moyers</B>,<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sassy!???<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR> ... you just must guard your heart, because she is doing to her new H what she was doing to you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know and I will. I'm actually feeling better, not talking to myself near as much. <P>Thanks Sheryl, gotta love ya huh?<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Hi Nyneve - Well, I'm having my revenge, too, even though I have not met anyone else yet. I got the house, the pets, Spousal Support for 7 years (plus 2 temporary until D was final), the friends, etc., etc. I am enjoying my friends and my newfound freedom to live my life as I choose, free from emotional blackmail and abuse. He married OW four months after our divorce was final. We had been married for 17 years at the point when he walked out on me. The OW (I call her his next ex-wife!!!) was married twice before and is apparently emotionally unstable. They deserve each other!!!!!<P>He made my life miserable for a long time and I forgave him his cruelty towards me, repeatedly. I loved him unconditionally and without reservation, but none of that meant anything to him. He threw me and our marriage away like some trash he no longer had use for.<P>If he had been honest with me about his unhappiness, acted with some compassion towards me, and gotten help, instead of going out and having an affair and trashing our marriage, I would feel a little more charitable towards him. But his so-called happiness with OW was taken at another's expense (mine) and with no regard for the pain caused to me, my family, his family or our friends. If he would have ended our marriage cleanly, after honestly giving it a chance, it would be different.<P>I, too, wish no harm towards my ex or his next ex-wife. But I do not wish to see their marriage succeed either. And yes, if and when it all falls apart, I will feel that they both deserve whatever they get. Actually, I feel little more than pity for him now. He messed up, and will have to pay the price somewhere down the line. (I just hope to be around to hear about it!!!)<P>Marsha<P>P.S. Congratulations on your marriage, and my best wishes for much happiness!!!!

Hi Marsha,<P>Yes, I feel as you do that the abusive cycle had to stop... you know though, it's still a bit of a roller-coaster for me, which surprises me to this day. Today, David called and apologized for his attitude the other night, when we argued. That's practically unheard of for him, and my first reaction was, "ah, shucks, Dave, I know you're sorry... " You know, the old, "everything'll be okay, I'm dancing as fast as I can" response. In reality, he very often treated me like he did the other night, and gave similiar excuses ("I was out of my head" - that was his reason this time too)...<P><sigh><P>Thanks for the congrats on the marriage, and I wish you a peaceful and loving rest of your life too -- whether with someone or by yourself, whichever you choose. (Because we never knew we had a choice, eh? )

Sheryl,<P>Not all of us do have a choice. <P>In answer to your question, our assets (and debts) were divided by the separation agreement. <P>The real issue is that, once the non-custodial parent leaves the house, he or she only has very limited financial responsibility toward his children - usually a percentage of his income.<P>If he finds someone who is willing to support him, he does not need much, if any, income anymore, and consequently he can live well while his kids live in poverty. If my H had lost his job while living at home, he would have taken any job(s) if it put food on the table - I know that for a fact because he did when he was briefly unemployed. Or he could have stayed home and raised the kids while I worked. As a non-custodial parent he is not responsible for doing anything beyond paying an amount of child support that is far less than he would have been contributing while at home. Plus I am responsible for all the child care costs. I don't know how any single parent can afford to work full-time when child care for two school age children runs about $8000 a year. <P>I am beginning to think I don't fit in here because the vast majority of posters (with a few exceptions, like Jill), do not have to worry about financial issues.

Nellie,<P>I just wanted to share something with you.<P>I have one child in daycare and it could be expensive. Where I live, there is a company that provides financial assistance for daycare. What you pay is based on what your income is and how many people are in your household. And their guidelines are much different than the guidelines for public assistance. Do you have any services like that in your area? Just an idea!<P>Mitzi

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>Not all of us do have a choice. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Here's the deal, Nellie. Most of what I write (and it seems, as you have noticed, many others) does not fit into your situation. <P>You didn't ask for the divorce, you didn't want it, you will fight it till your death. To you, you will always be married to your H despite the piece of paper, and you will be waiting for your H, hoping (and I won't say praying, since you're an atheist )that he comes out of his depression and realizes the reality and magnitude of what he's done -- ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE YOUR RIGHT.<P>So, you can pretty much take whatever I write and throw it in the toilet...<P>EXCEPT -- <B>hear this</B>:<P>You do have choices in your life. No, you didn't ask for this, but you DO have a CHOICE how to react to it. <P>You are so highly intelligent (completely sincere) that I know for a fact that you realize this. <P>I am sorry for you continued pain. I DO know what it's like to be poor. While David was cattin' around in the 80's, I was digging change out of the couch to buy milk. I was walking to the store because I had no car. Buying all our clothes at the Thrift Shop. I KNOW -- and it SUCKS. <P>Hi Mitzi, and good ideas!!

Hey Sheryl!! <P>Ya know, I've been extremely poor too! (I'm not rich now either! LOL). I had an H that refused to work. I, too, have scraped up change to buy milk, diapers, etc. I lived in a house with no heat cause we couldn't afford to get the furnace fixed (and we had an infant!), the house also had broken windows! I've had all of my utilities turned off at least once!<P>And ya know what? I don't make that much money now, and I'm doing so much better! I don't have to support anyone's alcohol and drug habit! I can buy my kids' shoes and coats and not have to ask my parents to do it! <P>Nellie, I hope that one day, you will look back on your life and see what you've accomplished. It may not be exactly what you want but it's yours! <P>Mitzi

Mitzi and Sheryl,<P>I didn't mean to imply that there was no one else who knew what it was like to be poor, but there do seem to be a number of people who don't have a clue what it is like - just as I, thank goodness, don't know what it is like to be starving.<P>There is a program that subsidizes daycare for preschoolers, but not after-school or summer care for school-aged kids. <P>Sometimes I just feel it is hopeless, especially when I run the numbers and discover that if I earned an extra 20K, I would still come out only 3 or 4K ahead of where I am now.<P>We were never anywhere near rich, but what we had went almost entirely to support the children. My H did not drink, do drugs, gamble or even shop for clothes anywhere much more expensive than Walmart - and neither did I. In many ways I think it would be a lot easier if my H had not been a good, conscientious man.<P> <P>

Hi Mitzi Yep, we **know** toooooo much, don't we? <P>See, Nellie, I know you probably hate when people say things like, "If you get lemons, make lemonaide" but it's true. I will tell you something about myself that you may not realize (or care about, but bear with me)... I don't know how to be truly happy. I was chatting with an MB friend tonight, and she was telling me how to say no, how to stop caring soooo damn much, how to find some peace... and it suddenly occured to me -- I DON'T KNOW HOW.<P>Nellie, I can hear the whistfulness (is that a word?) the almost dreamy quality that your life WAS, before the day your H went away... the chores, the not too rich but happy family that once was. I HEAR YOU. <P>I know you want your life back. God, I said that so many times in 1998, and 1999... and heck, part of 2000 too. There's a song by Neil Sedaka that I've quoted to friends quite a bit lately, and the words of one verse get me every time I hear it (which is why I don't listen to it - LOL):<P>I miss the Hungry Years<BR>The once upon a time<BR>The lovely long ago<BR>We didn't have a dime<BR>Those days of me and you<BR>I miss the hungry years<P>David and I used to listen to that song and hang on for dear life, because all we had was each other. Bottom line, aside from his antics, we loved each other and always believed it would get us through.<P>Is that what you believed too?<P>I didn't think you were implying anything by what you said, I was merely agreeing that it sucks to be poor. I've been there, and could tell STORIES.... believe you me.<P>

Sheryl,<P>I don't think our life was idyllic or dreamy - just normal. After we wallpapered a bunch of rooms together, we used to joke that if our marriage could survive that, it could survive anything. I did think the fact that we loved each other and shared many common goals was sufficient. I had no idea how much devastation depression could cause.

No, we did not have a choice! But I DO have a choice now - and I intend to make the most of it. I still miss the man my ex-H used to be - kind, caring, gentle - all the things that I fell in love with about him. He is no longer that person, and nothing I do will change it. It is impossible to go back - I can only go forward. Yes, my household income is less than half of what it was while I was married. But I re-financed the house, and have made a concerted effort to cut expenses. This is easier for me than most, because I do not have children. I also do not have a spouse that spends large amounts of money (without my OK or knowledge) on things (some rather expensive) on himself any more. I don't know how those of you with children (especially in daycare) do it. My hat is off to you, and my heart goes out to you, especially Nellie. <P>I am healthier and happier now than I have been in a long time. Life is still a struggle, but I have so much to be thankful for.<P>But there are times when I still long for things to be as there were before my H turned into the Selfish Jerk. Giving up the dream of a lifelong marriage with the person I loved most in the world is the hardest thing I have ever had to do. I still resent sometimes that I had no say in the matter, that I had my marriage and husband ripped away.<BR>But, I still have my dignity, my integrity and my honesty intact. I know I did nothing wrong, except stay with a man who no longer loved me, hoping against hope that things would improve. I have everything I need, and nothing I need to be ashamed of. Too bad Ex-H cannot say the same!

Hi, Nellie,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't think our life was idyllic or dreamy - just normal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It sounds pretty dreamy to someone who once believed we (as in David and I) would buy a farm somewhere and live out the rest of our lives among horses and fields and stuff... <P>David always had a "Waltons" mentality, in a way. He loved ""Family"" and what it represented. There was just this ugly perverted side of him that could never be reconciled, I think.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> After we wallpapered a bunch of rooms together, we used to joke that if our marriage could survive that, it could survive anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ah, these were your "Hungry Years"... I knew you must have had some... those days that made you think, "as long as we're together, everything will be okay"... yes, I remember... <P>Hi again, Lady Marsha,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I DO have a choice now<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That was my point, exactly. <P>I once took a Psych class which used a book called, "I never knew I had a choice". <P>EVERYTHING in life... you have a choice... a choice HOW TO RESPOND TO IT... maybe not a choice about its happening... but what you will do with what has happened. <P>My point, exactly.<P>

I do miss farming, and if I could turn back time I would have done just about everything possible to avoid having to give it up. However, on days when it was twenty below zero, all the pipes in the barn were frozen solid, we had to carry several 5 gallon buckets of water to each and every cow, and the calves were scouring, dreamy was not exactly the word that came to mind. On the other hand, on nice summer days when we looked out the kitchen window at the cows grazing in the fields....

I am curious,<BR>You spend SOOO much time talking about your ex-husband,<BR>putting him down about the affairs HE had ( don't forget, you had one too- he can hurt over that too ) and just plain bashing him left & right,<P>How much attention are you paying to your NEW marriage?<P>MM

Well, MistyMae,<P>Am I bashing David? I didn't think so... <P>You don't know me, so you don't know that I've been here for two years, at first working on my marriage to David, and hating myself for my affair. I've beat myself up more than you can possibly know... <P>Of course he hurt over my affair, very deeply in fact. I never said he didn't. Also, even on this thread, I said how much I once loved him. We were married for 20 years, and there was a reason or two we stayed together that long.<P>My new marriage is based on MB principles, to be sure. We are just beginning, so honestly, we're still in the honeymoon stage.<P>I'm curious why you ask?

Hello again, Misty,<P>I went back through this thread with a fine toothed comb, and I really didn't see anything that I'd said that was blasting... I also didn't talk about my affair, so I assume you did a search on me, or have read my posts without replying. Perhaps you've noticed that I've had a very difficult time, of late, with taking so much that is said here to heart. I have been very introspective, trying to find a balance in my life. <P>What you have written was meant to sting. I have to ask why?<P>I did a search on you, and you've only written one post before, asking about Keridwen. That was 2 weeks ago. This is what you chose to post next.<P>Why, why me, Misty? Please tell me, I'd like to know. If you're still around, that is.<P>If you have a marriage story to share, MB is the place for you... I hope you will remain and contribute...

Sheryl,<P>Please don't be hurt by Misty's post! Those of us who have been here know how much you loved David and how hard you tried to keep your marriage intact. You have not been bashing David, you have been honest with how things truly were in your marriage. <P>Misty,<P>Sheryl is a very loving and kind person. She doesn't say anything here with the intent to harm anyone. She has talked often about her own affair and not just David's. <P>Mitzi

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitzi:<BR><B>Sheryl,<P>Please don't be hurt by Misty's post! Those of us who have been here know how much you loved David and how hard you tried to keep your marriage intact. You have not been bashing David, you have been honest with how things truly were in your marriage. <P>Misty,<P>Sheryl is a very loving and kind person. She doesn't say anything here with the intent to harm anyone. She has talked often about her own affair and not just David's. <P>Mitzi </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mitzi,<P>I don't suppose it would be appropriate to reach through this screen and kiss you?? <P>Thank you for the kind words and affirmation.<P>You know my heart, and you know how sensitive I've been lately. It was hard not to take as a personal attack. My problem, I know. <P>But, THANK YOU. You made me feel MUCH better!! <P><BR>

Eeeeewwwww, more mushy gushy girly stuff!

Hey Paul!<P>We're allowed some mushy, gushy, girly stuff once in a while! <P>Sheryl,<P>You're definately welcome! <P>Mitzi

Sheryl! Sheryl!<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Sheryl}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR>Did you know that almost nothing that people do or say is about YOU, it is a reflection of their reality? Don't take it personally, because it's not really about you at all.<P>You know, there are those of us around here who have been here long enough to know all the times you struggled and cried and longed for David. There are those of us here who know how desperately you wanted to save your marriage and your family; and we also know that in trying so hard you came darn close to losing YOU! So, don't forget that some newcomers may not know all the facts. <P>That being said, I think Misty was (clumsily?) trying to point out that we all contribute to the problems in our marriages. David may be a verbally and emotionally abusive womanizer, but at least one time you did hurt him too. None of us here is able to cast the first stone. Even me!! haha <P>Last but not least, with regard to feeling guilty because you gave up, you know what? STOP IT!!! Girl, you tried and tried and tried until your finger bled! Sure you made mistakes and didn't do a perfect job, but I think at some point you finally realized that the essence that is YOU was going to die if you did not get out of there. <P>You didn't "give up"--don't forget, there were two at that dance, and your partner was dancing with every other partner in the city! You couldn't save the marriage by yourself, you were starving and dying for some loving attention, and you made a mistake. FORGIVE YOURSELF!! We have! <P>Because of this mistake, though you also finally realized a very good truth: you are loveable and worthy of respectful, safe, gentle love. That is when you made a decision to stop dancing the same old dance and do a new dance, and David did not want to dance the new dance. To this day, he wants to dance the old dance and he keeps on trying to goad you into it!<P>So, Sheryl, get out one of your chill pills, girl, and settle down. We love you--now YOU love you!<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Hi Paul, Hi Mitz, and thanks so much for the 's today -- well, actually it is now tomorrow! Yeah, it's pretty late, hubby working graves and I'm just about to the point where I can stay awake and sleep when he does... pretty lonely existence sometimes though.<P>OOOOOHHHHHHH CJ,<P>Did I call out for the best picker-uper a girl ever had? Because you are HERE!! <P>Thank you for the reality check and for reminding me to take those chill pills.<P>I take everything to heart -- gotta stop, gotta stop.<P>Just working on the "how"... <P>Love ya!!