Marriage Builders
Posted By: David A How do you convince them Love can return? - 01/11/04 03:34 AM


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
The love can return David, but they have to see that you are yourself, not someone that you cannot be for the rest of your life. The love you show towards her, let it be genuine love, and she will make the decision that you are the one that she loves.

Praying is very important, make arrangements for the two of you to go out on a special night if possible. Like a dating process, if you both feel comfortable with it, POJA.

Stay in counseling, for the two of you. This is difficult for the kids, for there is so much going on in their heads, did they do this, did they cause the damage. Reassure them that they had nothing to do with the divorce proceedings. And tell them that you two are working on yourselves, and working on emotional needs. Yes, David, Love can return, and prayer will help your spirit. God hates divorce, and God hates to see families torn apart. When one or both are unwilling to accomodate each others emotional needs.

Good luck David and your family. God Bless you!
I hate to say this, but you cannot make a WS do anything...Even see if things could work out...That's all from your side and you projecting your desires and wishes onto them. Sure, if they would just wake up and be fog free they might see it.

But they don't. Their believeing it could happen comes from you walking the walk day by day. And if affair is involved, do the other plan A stuff that goes along with it.

So I guess you cannot convince anybody anything. I had a professor in college who was convinced we are all deluded if we believe in religion vs. evolution (depite my own personal and somewhat blended views of this). You couldn't convince him to budge one bit on that issue. It's al about perceptions. What she perceives to be the truth to HER. Dr. Phil calls them filters. We wear rosecolored glasses sometimes and the world is beautiful. Sometimes we feel sad and are upset by something specific thus we have a negative filter by which we view the world. She's got a negative filter by which she is viewing the marriage. All you can do is make your perceptions different.

I wish there was a magic bullet or pill that could fix WS. There isn't. We have to fix ourselves and be smart cookies in the process. Sometimes it doesn't work and we have to know when to accept that too. But we don't give up on our marriages or our families without doing all we can positively do ok?


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
I have to disagree with Peachy on this point. I’ll admit you can’t force anyone to change anything. On the other hand, your wife read this site. Hopefully she read or is willing to read the books. She understands why she fell out of love, therefore, she should logically understand why she fell in love in the first place. If she gets the Love Bank concept, then she should “get” the idea that it is possible to fall in love again either with you the other man or someone else entirely.

Now, she may not believe it’s possible for you to change. But, you and time can prove her wrong there.

Are you counseling with a disciple of Dr. Harley? Or someone who believes that you can create conditions in which romantic love will grow and flourish?

Hey, she read this site. She’s gone to counseling. She talks about maybe getting back together at some point.

I would suggest though that unless there are some unusual reasons why you can’t sleep on the couch, you give her the bedroom. It’s the gentlemanly thing, and shows you are interested in her well being which is even more important than an antiquated gentleman’s code of conduct.
I agree with Green Gables

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would suggest though that unless there are some unusual reasons why you can’t sleep on the couch, you give her the bedroom. It’s the gentlemanly thing </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This would be a good step toward the Love Bank and help her feel more that you care.

My first reaction was to tell W "If you want out then you leave" I realize now that that doesn't show her that I care about her
Hurray for WIWH! Bonus points for thinking through the situation. And putting aside immediate satisfaction in favor of long-term benefit.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Bonus points for thinking through the situation </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been here a little while now, I'm learning. Just wish I learned a year ago
Posted By: m01069 Re: How do you convince them Love can return? - 01/12/04 08:01 PM
I am so sorry. I am new to this. My husband of 11 years (together 15) came to me 1 week ago and crying told me he can no longer live with me. He loves me, but is not "in love" anymore. I realized through our conversation (crying, not screaming believe it or not) that I have downed him and critisized him and he took it all in, never letting me know. My eyes are so open and I immediately went looking for ways to change myself to keep our marriage. We too are living together still for our 3 & 6 yr old, but he insists on legal seperation. My only hope right now is he will hang here long enough to see my changes and to love me again. Best of luck to you. I know the physical sickness that goes along with this, I've thrown up several times and cant swallow anything solid for the past week. I need to find a counselor in my area that has this sites positive attitude, I here so much about some marriage counselors doing more harm than good. Any suggestions on searching?
How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor

I had a bad experience with MC that I wish I could undo. Him digging into W's childhood for 4 weeks pushed her into making a decision of D

m01069.
It wouldn't be a bad Idea to start a new topic with a little more info about your situation. I read your post in EN forum but not much detail and not much in the way of replies


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WishI WereHome:
<strong> I agree with Green Gables

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would suggest though that unless there are some unusual reasons why you can’t sleep on the couch, you give her the bedroom. It’s the gentlemanly thing </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This would be a good step toward the Love Bank and help her feel more that you care.

I am not sure about this. I too did the gentlemanly thing and slept on the couch for 9.5 months so my wife could have the bed; the bed that we bought with Christmas money one year from MY parents. Now she considers it HER bed, HER room, HER house, HER life. Depending on the situation, I might be inclined to say to you that you should tell your wife "I'm sleeping in the bed. If you want to join me, fine. If not, enjoy the couch". Another arrangement would be a 50-50 split of the bed (4 nights one week, and 3 nights the next).

My first reaction was to tell W "If you want out then you leave" I realize now that that doesn't show her that I care about her </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Tell her she may be right that love may not return, but it is worth a test -- at least for the sake of the children. Tell her that love is so important that she shouldn't stay married unless that love can return.

Then consider bringing her to the Marriage Builder weekend in Orlando in early February.

We've spent $6,000 on MC and it turns out not to have helped. My most important EN is physical touch, and counselor #1 and counselor #2 both told me to withhold due to the affair. Well, I did, making me more and more bitter. He also was sleeping all over the house. It was hard on our children to see that and witness our arguing.

Now suddenly we're on the right track. Harley's right -- you can't stay married unless emotional needs are met. Your W admitting to an EA means she is telling you her ENs are not being met. This is an opportunity. We refinanced the house and used money for counseling. It didn't work and didn't work. Now I am willing to rebuild our marriage because I am not being told to assume it works. I am being told it is worth a test, and I need to dive in. So far, the test is working pretty well.

<small>[ January 13, 2004, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
David I know EXACTLY where you are. My wife is wishy washy when it comes to trying and not trying. My first suggestion is to look at the Basic Concepts and go from there. Maybe JUST MAYBE she will agree to read the quick summery with you. Mine did and it seems to have made some sence to her not sure if it will help it really depends on her. "The fog has to be lifted"
and unfortunatly for you and I we cannot do it SHE has to want to! Just do your best to make the changes in YOURSELF and walk the walk everyday and show her that your heart and mind are in the right place and that the changes you are willing to make are forever not just for now and what I tell my wife when she tells me what yours told you " I have hurt you so much I was never a good wife to you and never will be" I just say to her " that can't be cause love is unconditoinal (spelling?) and although you have hurt me I want to work this out for you for me and for our child. We were good together once and I believe we can be again." At least that is what I say. Hope it helps or works for you. Best bet in my book though is start with Basic Concepts and try to get her to MC. Good luck and keep posting. In the short time I have been here I have learned that these people have good advice and they listen and support you. And for me and I am sure many more it has ment more than they can ever know. Thanks you guys! For keeping me SANE


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
I'm not in a spot to be giving advice, but here goes...

What are you saying? Your love is unconditional. Are you a doormat? No love should be unconditional. I had that attitude and it set me up for mistreatment.

You need to restore your own dignity. You want a marriage, and a marriage is about mutual care not one-way worship of one person for another.

I married for life. If I divorce, I will not remarry. However, God did not call me to put up with an emotional desert. I am not called to give and give and give with nothing in return but "Leave me alone."

When I finally had had enough and was ready to end the marriage, there was a change. I'm not sure if it was from him or me, but now we are working on our marriage. I'm done with a bad marriage. I won't go back. Marriage is MUTUAL care -- remember that. You can't have a marriage when care is one way, and you need to accept that she is a separate human being who will make her own decisions.

<small>[ January 14, 2004, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>
Broken arm and heart, PLEASE don't miss understand. Me telling my wife that my love is unconditional is concerning the things in the PAST that has caused our marriage pain. I am not so far gone as to live in a emotional dessert. People make mistakes and you either can or cannot live with those mistakes and improve on YOURSELF and makeing sure you are a better person when it is all said and done. The things that have happened in the past that we have already worked through as a couple ( meaning my wife and I) have NO BEARING on the problems we are haveing now. Perhaps I am not saying it right or typeing it right rather. HEHE Only that things in the past are just that PAST and IF you are going to try REALLY TRY THE 2 OF YOU then the OM from 6 years ago (for me and my wife) really have no bearing on the problems we are haveing now. I have dealt with THAT pain and moved on and healed so has my wife ( or so she tells me) and doesn't effect the fact that she says she doesn't love me NOW. The problems are different and so is the situation. Is my love unconditional? I think it is in that I KNOW I will always love my wife, that does NOT mean I am willing to live in a house where I am not loved and my EN's are not being filled. IT IS a 2 way street I was simply commenting on the statement " I AM A BAD WIFE I HAVE HURT YOU SO MUCH" he posted had posted before as if telling him that she was doing HIM a favor by divorceing.


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
You need to read Love Must be Tough by Dobson. Also start writing your plan B letter after you've done a good plan A. I think the part you've left out of plan A is to work on you. Plan A doesn't make you a doormat. And also did you do any divorcebusting 180 techniques that help with the plan A?

I don't think so. You've begged and pleaded and she's resisted all the while. It doesn't make you appealing my friend. She's chasing others and wanting to be chased herself. Sure, it sounds full blown MLC. My xh waffled like that and even went to a marriage seminar...with his mistress who believed she was "going to hell" and used a church sponsored seminar to have her way.

If a guy begged and pleaded with me to stay with him like that I wouldn't see him as a challenge anymore. Nope.

She raised four kids. Look through her fog for a change to gain perspective. Until you know what is in their foggy minds, you can't fight anything. I could have told you she'd say no to Orlando. It was appeasement to buy her time to party and go out and continue. They will lie and say whatever they think will make divorces go smoother or feed their selfishness when in the fog.

Have you had a PI follow her yet? When she goes to "play pool"? I found out that my x was seeing one mistress by that. I am sure of two and possibly four. He just eloped with the mistress who got preggers.

You can't do anything or make her do anything. You seem controlling this way. Let her go. Write plan B letter if you think you've done a decent enough plan A. And then when she parties all night, lock her out and have her move. Make her see what's happening and get some sanity. But AFTER you've had a small change in you.

Lose the controlling stuff. You want her back but she doesn't see it this way. It is felt like control from their side ok? If she goes out, say that if she is out past three then she'd best stay out all night. Do the 180. Then switch to lights off plan B.

Control you. Help and listen to the kids. Don't try anything with you w. She will only resist more and more. Think about tug of war. She's pulling one way and you another. If you want the MLC to fall, then let go of your rope. It will make her MLC fall down just like other person on other end of the rope. Use your brain and quit using emotion for once.

Try this approach as it is for sure what you are working IS NOT HELPING. Einstein once said that the sure sign of insanity is TO DO THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND EXPECTING THE OUTCOME TO BE DIFFERENT.
It's great that you offered the MB weekend.

I don't really understand what happened with us, but suddenly we are on the right path. Last month, I simply decided I would not stay in a bad marriage.

He knew it. I didn't tell him exactly that I was done, but I ended MC with the second MC who told me, "The concept of care doesn't make sense to him."

We are in the MB program now. I asked him to attend the MB weekend in August, 2002, and he said no. I asked for January, 2003, and he said no. I got to feeling "I'm done" and now he is willing. The reason why I am telling you this is to give you hope. She may not be ready now, but she may be in the future.

Don't settle for crumbs. That's what I did, and that's what I got. Where was my sense of dignity, of self-respect, of self-worth that I would put up with his openly being more interested in another woman, swearing at me, and pushing me around until he caused some serious medical problems?

That's my story, and I'm sorry about that. I see you as being in the position I was in two years ago. I got through it thinking it wouldn't last, that something would change, and it did. IC gave me a sense of dignity, made me realize it was my choice of whether to accept such comtempt and poor treatment.

By the way, there is no love whatsoever left of me for him. I think it was gone by the end of the first month of our marriage, but there are memories of how much I cared for him when we were dating -- and how much he seemed to care for me --and that is enough.


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
TooMuchCoffeeMan has something on it in his signature line.

I think that the book The Solo Partner describes essentially the same thing. The book is out of print but your library could get it for you through interlibrary loan.


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
Dear David A:

I am very sorry for your pain. I understand completely how you feel. On July 18th last year my wife and a female friend of hers went out to a dance club all night. I was furious when she came home because she never called. I frantically called all her friends and her cell phone at 8:00 a.m looking for her. Was worried something had happened to her. The end result was that I voluntarily (but at her urging) moved out of the home, like you.

This soon became a lifestyle choice (and an unhealthy one) for her, and she made a habit of going out every Friday night while I watched the children. By Halloween I had enough and told her. In case you don't know, this was mainly after I had moved out of the house (July 24th). When I finally worked up the courage to tell her I would no longer watch her leave - knowing she was heavily embroiled in a party lifestyle, and that she would have to find a babysitter from now on, I gained back some respect for myself I had lost years earlier. I have not stayed at my home with my children over a Friday night since.

My wife has not formally filed for divorce that I know of, but has already divorced me in her heart.
I agree with many of the posters here in saying please do something for yourself. Keep on loving your wife, but no longer enable her behaviour. It will not help your marriage. When you lovingly take back control of parts of the marriage, your wife (whether divorce is in play or not) will begin respecting you (and loving you - without telling you) just a little more.

Keep up the marriage counseling. Go for yourself for now, not for the marriage. This is what I am doing. If your wife will not go to MC, see if the MC can phone her. This is what mine does, and my wife is willing to listen to him.

Hang in there and keep up the effort on yourself.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by David A:
<strong> Hi all,
Well I couldn't watch her going out and coming home in the wee hours of the morning so I talked to the kids and told them that their mother needed some time apart from me and her lawyer told her not to leave so I was going to stay at my fathers house for a little while. She managed between having the kids stay at friends on Saturday night and leaving them alone the rest of the time to go out every night this weekend. I thought she needed time alone to do some soul searching about saving our marriage. I guess she has become obsessed with living the life she never had and becoming the Hot Mom Party Girl. Not the kind of image I want my children having of their mother. Or me either... I really believe this is a mid life crisis with many other problems thrown in the mix. Makes for a giant brick wall between us that I guess I have no hope of tearing it down. I am continuing with counseling and praying and now I am going to my family to cry on their shoulders. Thank God they are there for me ! I know now that I will have to get better for me and my kids, especially if she continues living her life the way she has the last few weeks. Temporary court order hearing tomorrow. I was hoping she would postpone and give us some time but I guess that is a mute point now. She turned down my offer to go to the MB weekend in Orlando and hasn't answered me about returning to see another Minister / Marriage counselor. I suppose if she reads this it will upset her even more but it's all the truth and I don't think she sees it the way everybody else does. I'm still hoping to resolve this but at the same time I'm thinking more of myself and trying to heal my own wounds and problems.
Peace be with you !
David A </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
She's decided that she wants a bad M -- she'll do what she wants without regard for you. Are you willing to stay in a bad M?

I was -- for the sake of the children. Not only did I put up with abuse (swearing and pushing) but I also put up with neglect (running, golf, watching football on TV, -- it's not that these things are bad, it's that there wasn't ANY time for the family). He actually got upset with me because I asked him to deposit a check when he was going to the bank. He wouldn't because he was going to the ATM machine at the bank and it would take longer to do the drive-through at the teller window. I kept asking myself "Can I tolerate this?" and I could.

It wasn't until he was having lunch with a woman who was openly pursuing him ("Sleeping with Mark is better because of you") that I demanded a change. He changed, all right. He started lying. When I threatened to call this woman whom he said was calling him and it would be rude of him to hang up, guess what -- I got a broken arm.

The reason why I am telling you this is what I did, for the sake of the children, was put my head down, do my best to support him in what he wanted to do, and hope he would change. He got worse. The change was worse.

The affair did not come out of the blue. It came after years of neglect. It sounds to me like your W is headed down the same path.

I think that 180 degree program does give the spouse some time to consider what he is doing. My IC (I started counseling two months after the affair began because my H was telling me I was psychotic and I could see that I was very upset) told me to "cordially ignore" him and build my own life. In retrospect, I don't think that was the way to go. After the A came to light, one thing Tom said to me was "You knew something was going on, and you didn't do anything." Well, what could I do? I suppose, in the end, all I could do is separate. At the time, we had children ages 6, 3, 2, and under 1. It would have been difficult, but no as difficult as what did happen.


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
I was looking over your thread and had to give some feedback. You indicate that your wife is out partying and doesn't want anyone knowing where she is on weekends, your kids are 13/15....Boy, this is familiar to me. My parents got divorced and left my brother and I in limbo at the same time. My mom didn't go "party" however she was much more interested in being with her new man it turned out. Dad just nicely moved out and pursued work. We were left to take care of ourselves basically. Yes, we turned out okay-lucky for them! But let me tell you, it hasn't been easy emotionally. I still get choked up about nobody caring about where the heck I was and what I was doing. Don't let this happen to your kids! This is an age group that needs your time and attention. Why can't you have the kids and the house? You seem to be the responsible one? I hope I'm not offending you, but I just feel strongly about the situation.

Carry on.


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
And?
Can you find a third party to communicate through other than your children? What a terrible burden on them!


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
OMG, she sings in the choir, is having an A, and has filed for D. She NEEDS you to be the bad guy. Guilt will consume her. A friend of mine told me, "Don't run interference for Tom's conscience." Just follow through on the consequences to her actions. I'm not sure what to suggest of exactly what to do, but maybe you could make it clear you are willing to have a good marriage.
Hi David,

Well, I just read through all three pages of all the posts related to your topic and I have to say that I am really saddened by what your kids are going through.Forgive me but from what I have read,it almost seems like an afterthought that your children are being affected by this mess.

You and your W are so consumed by eachother,what she's doing,not doing and vice versa.I am willing to bet that your poor children are drowning inside,especially your daughter who now,according to you,will not speak to her mother at a time in her life when she desperately NEEDS a mother.

Like maccami mentioned,I too grew up in a household where not only was I an only child but I also had to fend for myself at an all too early age because of my bickering parents who were only involved in themselves and their bad marriage,wandering eyes(father) and then their bitter divorce.Boy did I have a LOT to overcome in adulthood because they didn't even recognize that I WAS SINKING in despair.

I could have literally gone out and hung myself in the front yard tree and they wouldn't have noticed until it was way too late.I am still amazed that I did not commit suicide because of the pain I was in back then.I had no one to turn to since my parents checked out long before.Friends couldn't understand,and it was too painful to talk about.

It is abominable that your kids should be at home alone for so long no matter what age,whether it is just happening or has been all along and it is also sad to hear that there is so much turmoil in the household when there should be stability and peace for the kids sake.Can you imagine their feelings, having to live with a parent(mother) who is so celf centered right now and also having to deal with their parents marriage dismantling right before their very eyes?

Truly,I do not want you to feel judged,that is not my intention but I just had to let you know that your story has affected me.It makes me want to reach through the computer screen and hug your kids.They are the innocent ones in all this.They need to be protected beyond all measure so that they can have some stability and peace in their lives and also retain SOME of their childhood.They are still children.Do they have a safe, comforting place that they can go because it doesn't seem like home is right now.

Don't use them to convey messages,keep them AWAY from the disaster going on around them as much as you can.Protect them and insulate them from bad behavior on anyones part.Especially if you think your W is tanking now they need that strong parent there to be their advocate and protector.

I do apologize again if this offends you in any way but it is difficult to hear what your kids are enduring I know all too well.

O
P.S. David,

I also live in Mass.What general area do you live? If you don't want to say,that's ok.

O <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I apologize if you're feeling a bit attacked. That really wasn't the intention at all. I realize you can't say everything your feeling and going through in a couple posts and that you're doing the very best that you can. I hope that your kids will realize that and remain close to you, whatever the outcome of the marriage. Hope your team wins the Super Bowl. Have fun tomorrow.


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
That's really wonderful that you have the support of your older daughter. Is she able to exert some pressure on mom? or at least guilt to make her change her new lifestyle? I'm not saying she can't still leave you....but at least being more stable. Counseling sounds great too. Take care!
Love can return, but unfortunately you can't talk anyone else into it. I agree that you may be able to convince them it's worth trying.
I don't know who said it but....
"If you continue to do what you've always done, you'll continue to get what you've always got." If you do get the chance to try again (and that quote made any sense to you) it might be helpful to keep it in mind?


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
Dear David ~ I have read through every one of the posts on this thread. I can relate with most of what you're going through. My WW has also reached the point of "acting out". But in my case, she has moved out in a legal separation of 60 days. We're 1/2 way through.

What can I tell you? Your efforts to find your peace with God are paramount!!! Don't ever stop!!! The only thing you and I can do right now is work on ourselves, our relationship with God and our children.

I've just received a wakeup call from reading this. YOU and I BOTH need to focus MORE on our children than we ever have. I'm dead serious. A phone call is not enough. We need to see them more, draw feelings out. Do fun stuff togther to keep them afloat emotionally. This will potentially be life-scarring for them. I have 2 boys near your kids ages (12 & 14). We've got to concentrate more on them my friend. That is our calling in this.

More later. You're in my prayers I assure you. Just placed you before the Father just now. Please remember me in your prayers!


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
David, may I make a gentle suggestion? I think your daughter needs you now more than ever. She needs to relate to a man who loves her to learn what is right and wrong, and how to deal with life's ordeals.

Use this opportunity to approach her and simply state, "honey, I want you & me to be together more as father/daughter. I love you & need you."

Then do stuff she likes to do WITH her!! It'll seem weird at first, but you'll develop enormous insights into her mind you never would.

To not become proactive is to set her up for unthinkable devastation later on in her own life's relationships. This sort of thing really scars kids if we're not careful.

May God attend you and your family at this time.
David,

I totally agree with High Flight. You had quite a day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> , Great job keeping your composure. I would like to note that, as you know, your kids are totally aware of who is giving up on your family. This will always be clear to them throughout their lives. I can tell you that I am much closer to my father because he, like you, didn't want it to end and has been there for me much more. He still comes to my house at least once a week to spend time with us all. Kids love him, dog loves him....You can go on with your life, learn and grow, but keep those bonds with your children strong and close. I am sure this will be your primary source of joy and probably theirs as well. Read, read, read - and changing gears, please don't read the Dr. L book.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Take care!
One more thing while I'm thinking about it....(sorry!) This is your second marriage, right? Why not ask each of the wives, past/present to help you help yourself by filling out the lovebuster questionaire and/or emotional needs questionaire? This could a. Help you determine what you are doing wrong and b. Make wife #2 realize (hopefully) that you weren't such a bad guy in many ways....Perhaps she'll be able to be less blind in her expectations of Dennis (yuk) and he'll become less attractive. I have a hard time understanding how someone can respect a person who would date a married person? PS: You might want to start a new thread in the INFIDELITY section...will produce some good feedback, no doubt.


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
You're a quick learning man David! Keep it up!!! Yes, God's will is paramount. Even our Lord used to pray, "nevertheless, not my will, but Thine be done"!!!

Shows our humaness (which Jesus shared) is so very limited in forward looking mode.

Ask your daughter what she would like to do. Give her first choice. But absent of her suggesting something, be prepared with a backup plan of your own. Don't be afraid to try new stuff. Doesn't have to be expensive either.

Make sure you get time with your kids absolutely solo. Just you and each one of them by themself.

Here are a few ideas: hiking, rock climbing indoor place learn to belay, her do a "fashion show" at mall dressing rooms, you be the judge / MC, sit in library reading together, a trip to the seashore, any theaters with plays, find the coolest websites and share them with each other, show her what you do at work, go to an old folks home and adopt a "grandparent" you can both write to and visit together, go together to serve food at a homeless shelter, soup kitchen, etc.

Blessings on all of our families in our Lord's name!

<small>[ February 04, 2004, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: High Flight ]</small>


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
Dear David. Been there (your story of her being hot and cold, come close...go away behavior), done that, got a VERY UGLY T-shirt! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Just know that this is all very typical behavior exhibited by someone in "the infamous FOG" of denial, grief, despair, depression, self-centeredness.

She will flip flop around like a dying fish on shore. Your job? Stay steady. Don't react. Don't let her push your buttons. Lean on God. Let Him tell you what to do. Stick to principle. Develop your plan and work it come what may.

Don't let go of that house. Don't let go of the kids. But don't fight with her...no matter what, it won't help anything ultimately. You're going to have to walk a very fine line between being a H who wants her back and will stick with his M vows until the bitter end if need be. AND, a H who is about to get shafted, therefore it's all about business at this point, protecting your finances for the future. God will help you negotiate these tricky waters.

God be near to you. Go love you kids to the Nth degree right now. They are REALLY suffering I can assure you.


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>


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<small>[ February 17, 2004, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>


<small>[ February 17, 2004, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: David A ]</small>
I apologize to all those following this thread for erasing all my posts. I have entered into a confidentiality agreement with my wife about our affairs for now. I will respect her wishes and refrain from posting a daily diary here. Please pray for us and our family that we have a happy resolution to our problems. I hope someday you will read about us in the recovery section. Goodbye for now and God Bless you all.

David A
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