Character...? In light of Dating while separated post

Marriage Builders

My question is:

Can a person have genuinely good character and yet make a choice that would normally violate their values? Or does that mean than the values were actually only ideals and not really values?

Those of you who've read the recent dating threads may know where I'm going/coming from with this.

See, I am involved with someone and my D is not yet final. (It would be if the lawyers would stop taking vacations. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) I already know where most of you stand on this, so I am certainly not seeking justification. And I already know that at the time I made the initial choice to become involved, it was influenced by wrong reasons - loneliness, emptiness, giving up, being weak and vulnerable. But I am not those things anymore and now I AM in this relationship and I love the person very much. I have asked myself in the past if I should end things till the D is over, but then that seems so pointless to me. I don't want to let go of this person that I love - they have been such a strength for me and I have gotten used to meeting ENs and having them met back - that would be hard to give up. Even though it was wrong to get involved when I did, I am now extremely attached.

Obviously, you all can see the pull on me. I have always been the good girl, the strong one. I was strong for so long. Then I just got so WEAK. I feel horrible when I read the posts here about dating. I feel like you are all so strong, what is wrong with ME?

The only thing that bothers me is the principle of it, the technicality that I am still technically married (ouch). It bothers me to know I am violating that. Besides that, I have no issues with the relationship itself. I have never been in such a healthy relationship in my life (please don't scoff at that, despite the circumstances, it is true). As far as STBXWH, he knows about it and he couldn't care less - he is still trailing after OW like a lost puppy dog.
So that brings us back to the original questions. Am I a bad person? Would you all put me in the same category as my STBXWH? I have read things like that written to other posters, and it kills me. Does God still love me even though I'm unwilling to do "the right thing"? I can't believe I just asked that question. I know nothing I can do could change God's love for me.

I just want to be a good person. I am actually starting to really love life and who I am/ who I am becoming. I have gone back to school full-time after being a SAHM for the past 5 years and I have my own dreams and goals not relating solely to my family for the first time in my life. I have started working out again regularly. And I am with a caring, loving, sensitive, wonderful man. Yet deep down, I feel guilty, especially when I come here.

Is everything I am as a person riding on whether I am dating before my divorce is final? Be gentle with me...

fhl04,
I started to do a long response here but decided against it. I did pretty much the same thing you are doing and got slammed some for admitting it so you might as well get ready. Looks to me like your marriage is over except for the paperwork and you are moving on with your life. That is okay. It does not make you a bad person. My only advice would be to take it slow and careful, be sure of what you are getting into before you get too involved. Listen to what the ones that seem to be attacking you have to say, they have good intentions and will make some valid points worth considering.

Faith,
I know exactly how you feel; my situation is a little the opposite in that I got involved with a man whose divorce was not final although he had not seen the ex wife in 4 years and she lived in another state. For reasons of money, procrastination and uncooperativeness; the divorce had never been finalized. That was very difficult for me, as technically he was a MARRIED man. I too thought of breaking it off until he finalized the divorce, but it also seemed pointless as he had no relationship, children, or financial ties to her. I did back off on the intensity of our relationship until the divorce was final....we did more "friend" things, than "couple things"......but now it is such a relief that he is actually divorced.

I knew you'd be nice to me Jeff, since I've watched you get slammed so many times! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Nice of me to come to your aid, huh? Well, you see hoe conflicted I am, so you can forgive me, I hope. Actually, the problem is that I DO listen to what they say, and that is what makes me feel guilty!

Anna, thanks for sharing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

faithhopelove04

I've been considering this for a while FHL. My answers (and personal decision) may not be popular with you; but please bear with me.

Can a person have genuinely good character and yet make a choice that would normally violate their values? Or does that mean than the values were actually only ideals and not really values?

Character is always lost when a value is sacrificed for the perception of a better opportunity.

See, I am involved with someone and my D is not yet final. (It would be if the lawyers would stop taking vacations. )

People with integrity do what they say they are going to do. Others have excuses.

Even though it was wrong to get involved when I did, I am now extremely attached.

Do you have any idea how many people use that line to justify having an affair?

Obviously, you all can see the pull on me. I have always been the good girl, the strong one. I was strong for so long. Then I just got so WEAK. I feel horrible when I read the posts here about dating. I feel like you are all so strong, what is wrong with ME?

Moral courage and character go hand in hand .... a person of real character is consistently courageous, being instilled with a basic integrity and a firm sense of principle

The only thing that bothers me is the principle of it, the technicality that I am still technically married (ouch). It bothers me to know I am violating that.

Wisdom is knowing what to do next; virtue is doing it.

I just want to be a good person. I am actually starting to really love life and who I am/ who I am becoming.

To know what is right and not do it is the worst weakness in the world.

Is everything I am as a person riding on whether I am dating before my divorce is final?

People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is built. Eleanor Roosevelt

All but one of these are quotes from people much wiser than I will ever be. You are "only" 24. Your D will be completed within a few months, no doubt. Your new person will absolutely understand your reasons for wanting to cool down and wait for D; if he truly cares for you! It will be a non-issue for him-I guarantee it. Your children, Grandchildren (and yourself) will honor you for making the "right" decision as you know it. Please, do not allow a tiny bit of time affect your character! You will be better for it.

When all is said and done, the only thing you'll have left is your character. Vince Gill

Good Luck, Be Strong!

FR

James 3: 13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Show by your good life that your works are done with gentleness born of wisdom. 14But if you have bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not be boastful and false to the truth. 15Such wisdom does not come down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, devilish. 16For where there is envy and selfish ambition, there will also be disorder and wickedness of every kind. 17But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy. 18And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace for those who make peace.

James 4: 4 Adulterers! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, ‘God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us’? 6But he gives all the more grace; therefore it says, ‘God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.’ 7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Lament and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into dejection. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

I TOTALLY agree with Fishracer's post. Great advice.

Let me also add:

 So that brings us back to the original questions. Am I a bad person? 

No, you've just made a bad choice.

Would you all put me in the same category as my STBXWH? 

Unfortunately, yes. I can almost guarantee you that most wayward spouses feel exactly the same way...that their marriage was already "over."

I have read things like that written to other posters, and it kills me. 

Have you asked yourself WHY it kills you? What is your answer and are you okay with it?

Does God still love me even though I'm unwilling to do "the right thing"? 

Yes, God still loves you, but He's grieved at what you are doing and you attitude towards it (unwillingness).

I just want to be a good person. 

There are LOTS of good people out there; question is: do you want to do what's right in the eyes of the Lord OR be a "good person?"

Yet deep down, I feel guilty, especially when I come here.

Well, maybe you should listen to your deep down feelings....I think you already know the answer, regardless of if you come here or not. I believe that God often speaks to us in that deep down, still small voice; most people don't listen or want to hear what He has to say.

Is everything I am as a person riding on whether I am dating before my divorce is final? Be gentle with me... 

Of course not. You will just become the type of person who "believes" certain things, but doesn't really do them. There's lots of people who do this.

I've always loved this line: If you find you haven't made the right choice, then go and make the choice right.

The choice is up to you as to what kind of person you want to be.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by faithhopelove04:
 it was influenced by wrong reasons - loneliness, emptiness, giving up, being weak and vulnerable.

Then I just got so WEAK. I feel horrible when I read the posts here about dating. I feel like you are all so strong, what is wrong with ME?

The only thing that bothers me is the principle of it,

It bothers me to know I am violating that.

I have read things like that written to other posters, and it kills me. Does God still love me even though I'm unwilling to do "the right thing"?

I just want to be a good person. <hr /></blockquote>What the Bible Says About ... Keeping a Good Conscience

by Betty Miller

Song of Solomon 2:15 says, "Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes."

Foxes sometimes in search of food would enter into the grape orchards and devour the grapes and spoil the crop. However, the little foxes were too small to reach the grape bunches so they would chew on the vines and it would kill the whole vine. Instead of the farmer just losing his crop, he would lose his vine which was more disastrous. Spiritually some things we do or allow that we might think are little or insignificant can also be disastrous for us.

Every man is born with a conscience. It is a gift of God to mankind. However, man can quench his conscience by continually ignoring its voice over a period of time. The result is that his heart becomes hardened and seared so that it no longer speaks to him. How does this happen? Little by little. Just as the "little foxes" spoil the vines, so it happens with men ignoring the voice of their consciences over little things, then bigger things, then nothing evil bothers them at all.

Webster's New World Dictionary defines the conscience as: "a knowledge or sense of right and wrong, with a compulsion to do right; moral judgement that opposes the violation of a previously recognized ethical principle and that leads to feelings of guilt."

God provided a conscience even in unregenerate men to point them toward His principles and ways. All of us, before we are saved would be totally depraved if it were not for this provision of God by His grace. However, the longer people live in sin and carnality, the less the true inward conscience has any authority in their lives. Most of the time, particularly in today's culture, we have developed "false" consciences. These are "programs" in our minds, not our spirits, as to what is right and wrong, and these things (evolution, secularism, humanism, situational ethics, and traditions and doctrines of religious thinking) control what we think is moral and ethical. The world's thinking overrides and drowns out the inner voice of the true conscience that God put within us.

Hebrews 10:22 "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works."

Because of the world's ungodly influences, it is very important for a Christian to allow His conscience to be "healed," or renewed, to reflect God's standards which we find in the Bible. That is why Christians cannot be guided by their consciences in most cases. It is much safer to be guided by the Word of God and by witnesses and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

Today we are shocked by the evil acts of men who perform ghastly deeds and show no remorse whatsoever. We ask, "How can they do such things?" When the conscience is seared -- burned out by constantly going against its nudgings -- then men become like animals in their behavior. The Bible speaks of this in the following verses.

1 Timothy 4:1-2: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron."

This also happened in ancient times, according to Paul's letter to the church at Rome (Romans 1). After a certain period of time, God will give someone with a seared or evil conscience "over to a reprobate mind." That means the mind cannot be renewed, because the person has for so long chosen self-ways (which really are Satan's ways) over God's that it is not possible for them to change. This should be a warning for all who persist in sin.

Romans 1:28-32: "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

When we give our lives to the Lord, He begins a work in our hearts and minds and brings healing and enlightenment to the conscience. When a Christian's conscience is renewed, it will not condemn them. When a Christian's mind is renewed, it will not think carnal, self-centered thoughts. When a Christian's emotions are renewed, they will no longer be negative. When a Christian's will is renewed and submitted to God, he will no longer choose against God's ways.

This happens on the positive just the way it does on the negative side. Our little choices to obey God and live by His Word day by day will eventually bring the changes in our lives that will cause us to be more like our Lord. While on the other side, those choices to ignore the conscience and go ahead and disobey God will bring about a hardened and unrepentant heart. We are warned against allowing this to happen. Do not allow this "little fox" of small disobedience choices to gradually harden your heart.

Hebrews 3:13-17: "But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?"

Would you all put me in the same category as my STBXWH?
Unfortunately, yes. I can almost guarantee you that most wayward spouses feel exactly the same way...that their marriage was already "over."

I know exactly where you all are coming from, and this is the only statement I'm not sure I agree with. Most WS's, especially mine that justify their affair by saying their M was already "over" are taking a real leap there. When mine started all his garbage, I had NO CLUE anything was really wrong because he was a non-communicator and conflict-avoider. I was in what I though was a loving, comitted, trusting marriage. He abused that. When I say my M is "over", I mean STBXWH says he no longer loves me or wants to be with me, he chose OW over me, chose the single life over our family, moved out without telling me, etc, etc. I think that may be like comparing apples and oranges.

Lost Husband, I understand what you are trying to do, and I appreciate your reply. I don't mean this to be combative in any way, or unappreciative. I KNOW. I can find you just about any scripture relating to anything you want, I can probably even quote a lot of them. I guess maybe I have been fooling myself thinking I learned a lot from the four babies I lost, and that I was dealing well with God's intervention or lack thereof in the ordeal I went through with STBXWH. I thought I wasn't angry, I thought I didn't blame him. I thought I didn't feel let down. I think partly I gave up because when I was losing my babies I prayed, prayed, prayed, quoted scripture, wrote God letters, had everyone I knew praying and yet they died. I thought I was over that, that I had come to terms with God's sovereignty, and to the reality of suffering. Then for months on end I did nothing but cry out to God, go to church, seek counsel, pray, pray, pray, read scripture, etc and yet my husband who I dearly loved and used to serve God turned away from both of us - me and God. Maybe that's why I stopped reading the Bible, stopped thinking about scripture, stopped praying much. Maybe I figured, what's the point. I know, to be close to God. But it felt like everytime I drew close to God, I hurt more. I can't explain it. But that's how it was. If I went to church, I would embarrassingly stand there during worship and sob openly. When I spent time in prayer, it semmed everything hurt worse that day. I wanted to just stop feeling, stop hurting. You guys know the feeling - the heart being ripped out of your chest feeling, the wanting to walk out in front of a car feeling.
I needed arms around me, a place to lay head and feel safe and loved. I've heard all my life how you can go to God for that. I tried, but it just wasn't working.
It scares me to death to think about the fact that I am doing something that God isn't pleased with and I am unwilling to stop. I am crying as I sit here writing this.

Mrs. O, you are right that it shouldn't be such a big deal to wait a little while, until things are final.
What would you guys say is appropriate? No contact at all? Talking on the phone? E-mailing?
I mean, no matter what, my heart is going to belong to someone else other than my STBXWH. Is that in itself sinful? I mean, obviously if he was wanting to be with me it would. Should I try to change that if I even could?
I know you guys are frustrated with me. I have been there. I know EXACTLY how you feel. I lead a High School youth group with STBXWH for a couple years. You probably want to beat me over the head. I know one good thing that has come from this, and that is that it has truly humbled me. I know what it's like to be on the other side, to be the one people are frustrated with, the one people quote scriptures to. I am used to being the one who does the quoting.

I do appreciate your responses. It means a lot to me, and it helps to be talking about it. I hope I haven't come across as being defensive, I am just thinking out loud. This has all been building up for a long time.

((((((((((((((((Faith))))))))))))))))))

[QUOTE]Originally posted by faithhopelove04:
Mrs. O, you are right that it shouldn't be such a big deal to wait a little while, until things are final.

What would you guys say is appropriate? No contact at all? Talking on the phone? E-mailing?

Yes, all of those things.

I mean, no matter what, my heart is going to belong to someone else other than my STBXWH. Is that in itself sinful?

If you are still married...then I would say it is.

 I mean, obviously if he was wanting to be with me it would. Should I try to change that if I even could? 

I don't understand this....is it YOUR choice to end the marriage? If it was, then YES you should try to change that.

I know you guys are frustrated with me.

You probably want to beat me over the head. 

I'm not...and no, I don't want to beat you over the head.

But I do hope you do the right thing....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LostHusband:
 ((((((((((((((((Faith)))))))))))))))))) <hr /></blockquote>Me too..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

((((((((((((((((((((((Faith))))))))))))))))))))))

Can you make a choice that goes against your values while at the same time being a good person who maintains her values?

At various times in our lives we are faced with choices in which two of our values are in conflict. We are forced to chose. For example, we all pretty much agree we should protect our children and families. We also agree that we should not kill another human being. What if an evil person comes into your home armed to the gills and attempts to rape your children and wife? You are faced with a choice.

I think anyone who truly equates FH04 with her husband in their hearts must be a moral absolutist.
I am not, and I see a world of difference in dating while you are married and dating when your divorce is going on, especially a divorce which drags out for years. In FHL04’s case both parties have agreed that the marriage is done, finished. They are simply negotiating the contract that ends the marriage. (I wonder what would happen if we all spent as much time negotiating the marriage contract before signing it as we did the divorce contract?)

I tell you what, maybe some folks would be happier if you POJA’d the new relationship with your STBX. After all, you are still married, therefore, you should follow POJA, right? Oh, and while you’re at it, make sure you avoid LBs and meet his needs, because you are still married, aren’t you? And you might want to fork over half your income to him, after all he’s still your husband.

If the ban on dating applies while divorcing, then so should all the other rules and vows of marriage up to the point the divorce decree is granted.

Maybe some of us willing to label FLH04 as an adulteress should think about what we’d have to do if we were to live by that code.

[ September 08, 2004, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: greengables ]

Thank you for the cyber-hug. Tears are now streaming down my face. It's amazing that a hug can actually reach through the computer.

I just don't know if I'm strong enough. I know I need to get my strength from God, but I don't know how, it doesn't seem to happen.

This is the most I've cried in a long time about something like this. I cried so much for so long....It felt SO good to be happy, to not cry, to laugh, to have someone be there for me - someone who cares about my day, every little detail of my life, my feelings.

It's ironic. First STBXWH caused me so much pain by WANTING to divorce me, now WANTING the divorce to be over is causing me pain. It just is horrible how much limbo we have to go through, how much we have to put our lives on hold because of their selfishness.

I literally feel sick to my stomach right now - will this pain ever end?

Faith, It will end. It will be okay.

The Divine has a way of turning all to good even though we may not get a chance to see it right now.

PS: There are a lot of reasons besides the "adultery" one which would suggest it's not a good idea to date while you're divorcing.

I was only arguing that you can chose to date in the divorce process and in some situations, still be moral.

[ September 08, 2004, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: greengables ]

OK, I was crying, and now, greengables, you have me laughing out loud. Thanks for the laugh. And thankyou for not equating my actions w/ STBXWH's. It's funny what you said about POJA'ing the new relationship. In essence, we have actually done that! Sick, but true. He knows about it, and is fine with it. Too bad he didn't follow POJA in his sick, obsessive relationship with a married and not planning on divorcing woman. You are right, I was thinking maybe I should try to meet his EN's since we are still "married". Especially the need for SF. Actually, you know what is so SICK is that he used me for SF all the while knowing he had already passed his imaginary deadline and he was leaving me (too bad he was LYING to me, telling me everything was fine). He had me doing things I felt uncomfortable doing, he even knew I was in pain at times, yet didn't care. This was AFTER his deadline, which I didn't even know existed. Somehow it seems more sick and degrading to me to be in a relationship like that than in the kind of relationship I'm in now. At least the person I'm with now WANTS to be with me, and isn't just using me and then throwing me out with the garbage.

Mrs O - I think you misunderstood me. I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear. No, it was not my choice to end the M. What I meant was, IF he was still wanting to be with me, then I would be wrong for allowing my heart to be someone else's. And the next sentence meant should i try to change the fact that my heart is someone else, and if so, what's the point in the long run as far as what was our "marriage" goes.
What did you mean by "all of these things"?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by faithhopelove04:
 And thankyou for not equating my actions w/ STBXWH's. <hr /></blockquote>Just to clarify: I'm not saying that your MOTIVE was the same as your STBXWH's....just your actions...in a relationship with another man while still married.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What did you mean by "all of these things"? <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by faithhopelove04:
What would you guys say is appropriate? No contact at all? Talking on the phone? E-mailing?<hr /></blockquote>I meant, yes, you should have no contact. No talking on the phone. No emailing.

I realize this would be hard for you. Believe me, I do. But it's still YOU who has to determine what kind of person you are and want to be.

The fact is: You are still married.

There can be (and are) TONS of other legitimate reasons why you shouldn't be dating right now, but the REAL issue is....you are still married.

That's just the bottom line.

So, if you think it's okay for a married person to date, email or call another person (of the opposite sex) outside of the marriage, that is your decision and that is the kind of person you choose to be.

I don't mean for this to be harsh. But sometimes the truth is just that....plain and simple. It's really not complicated.

[ September 08, 2004, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Ms.O ]

Faith, Glad you're laughing.

I can understand too about your issues with God. I remember how angry my close friend was when her baby died. Her mother had had some order of pink nuns praying for the baby, a bunch of priests plus all the rest of us, and he still died. She was FURIOUS, mostly at the nuns.

My theory about crises of faith is that they are an essential part of spiritual growth. Each of us needs to know what we hold to be true and why. And that truth needs to marry with our experience of ourselves and our world.

So far, I've ended up believing in the Holy Sacrifice and the Resurrection and that all religions are true religions. And that the Divine Spirit lives within each and every one of us. That's as far as I've gotten.

Hugs to you.

greengables, it's funny, I am taking a Religion and Contemporary Society class this semester and we just had a speaker on the Baha'i Faith. i don't know if you're familiar with it but your beliefs sound very similar. I whole-heartedly disagree with it, no offense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But I have learned so much through some horrible experiences, and I have become a MUCH more accepting person than I used to be. It used to kill me to sit and listen to someone talk about things I didn't believe or agree with. I am learning to appreciate people's differences, and at least hear them out without responding in a judgmental, self-righteous way. What I think is so cool about you is that at least you THINK about your belief system. In my life, I have known so many people who do not THINK at all, they are like puppets, or parrots. They cannot really answer WHY they believe what they believe. And once you start taking them through to the logical conclusion of where a certain belief would bring them, it often makes no sense, but they refuse to see it....Sorry, tangent there.

Mrs. O, I am not the " kind of person that would date while still married", maybe I am the kind of person who would date while separated, and I do think there is at least some difference. I also see a difference though between a separation where you're not sure what's going to happen and a separation in which you are literally in the middle of a divorce. Then again, maybe I am just that kind of person , in which case, maybe I ought to just be who I am....I'm sorry, I am just emotional right now. Being humbled is not fun.

fhl04,
How you holding up? Sounded better after GG's insight. I've been a little surprised at where some of the smacks have come from and there's a couple of heavy hitters that haven't jumped in yet. Keep your chin up.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Most WS's, especially mine that justify their affair by saying their M was already "over" are taking a real leap there. When mine started all his garbage, I had NO CLUE anything was really wrong because he was a non-communicator and conflict-avoider. I was in what I though was a loving, comitted, trusting marriage. <hr /></blockquote>My situation was very similar. I had no clue we had a problem until my W walked into my office and told me she had moved out, she wasn't happy and she wanted us to get a divorce. My first question was if there was someone else and she denied that there was. My attorney told me to do some digging and I found out that not only was there someone else, he wasn't the first. WW still denied. Both of them. She admitted the current OM only after I caught her at his house. She admitted the first (that I know of of) only after she saw my witness list at depositions and knew that 2 mutual friends were going to testify she had told them about it, she was busted and she knew better than to lie under oath. The only time she called me since this started was the next night after depositions, she called to apologize about the first OM. Her apology was "because you found out, I never wanted that to happen.". My marriage had been over for 11 years and I hadn't known it. I had been living with and had 2 children with a fantasy. When I started "seeing" someone else, my marriage was over, my WW and I both knew it. The last thing she said to me when she told she had moved out was "find you an internet bimbo and be happy.". She couldn't have cared less if I was with someone else. I felt no guilt about my adultery then and I feel none about it now. Like your case, the marriage was over, the paperwork just wasn't completed yet and the guy in the black robe hadn't tapped his little gavel. WxW and I didn't get married in a courtroom and it didn't take a court proceeding to end it, except for the legality. Technically you and I have committed adultery. It in no way compares with the actions of our WS's. You are not a bad person. See your new significant other, get some ENs met, you deserve it.

For the Holier than Thou crowd, go ahead and throw stones, I have my armor on.

FHL4,

My STBXdaughter-in-law (28) has a MB mther-in-law, me. We have had this very conversation. More than once. She won't be dating until the divorce is final. As far as she is concerned she is married. My son (30), my OWN flesh and blood is now with a second OW since he left their family home almost 2 years ago.

My grandsons from that marriage are now 6 and 3 1/2. Have your children spent time with both of you together? That is another thing you should not do until you are in a committed relationship. Break two more hearts so soon if it doesn't work out?

This

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am actually starting to really love life and who I am/ who I am becoming. I have gone back to school full-time after being a SAHM for the past 5 years and I have my own dreams and goals not relating solely to my family for the first time in my life. I have started working out again regularly. <hr /></blockquote>then this

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> And I am with a caring, loving, sensitive, wonderful man. <hr /></blockquote>then this

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yet deep down, I feel guilty, especially when I come here.
<hr /></blockquote>Welcome to Marriage Builders! I mean that with all of my heart!

Inner conflict means you are growing!

[ September 08, 2004, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Ragamuffin ]

DeafJeff,
I have to say that it's amazing you still post here considering you are constantly beat to death by other posters. I'm a sensitive eprson, I want everyone to like me, and I want to "have it all together". That's why it took so long for me to gather the courage to talk about this here.
See, the thing is, I feel like I have come to the conclusion that I will not equate my actions with my STBXWH's, I know my intention, I know where my heart was. If I didn't desperately want to stay in a commited marriage to my STBXH, I would not have cried myself to sleep every night for months, or felt suicidal, or put myself out there for him only to be faced with the worst kind of rejection. I am not perfect. I am just as weak as all the other sinners I have passed judgment on in the past. And I can live with that. What I have a real hard time living with is this: Technically you and I have committed adultery. It in no way compares with the actions of our WS's. ...Adultery...I am an adulteress. Is that WHO I AM?
I don't even believe in sex before marriage. STBXWH and I dated for years and remained virgins until our wedding night. But now, I have been completely without self-control in that area. It is surreal to me, almost. A part of me I never knew existed. I think it has something to do with ENs being met that were never met before. OK, well, there may be some other things that have something to do with it too...but I won't go there... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Maybe this is my awakening, to realize that I AM A SINNER, I AM HUMAN. I am not perfect and can't expect others to be either.
Still, I don't want to be continually committing adultery...I've definitely gotta do something about that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

faithhopelove04

The answer to all of your concerns lies in your user-name!

From Websters finest:

Faith: "fidelity to one's promises" (Promise; as in vow, as in marriage vow. I imagine that you took the "legality" of your marriage seriously when you first married. Shouldn't you do the same for your divorce?)

Hope: "To cherish a desire with the expectation of fulfillment" (Do you hope to be true to your values; your character?)

Love: No matter the definition; if it's there, it will wait a few more months!

faithhopelove04 :

Nobody on here desires to bust on you. Everyone wants to see you succeed. Your original question involved character and values; the two most important elements of your life. Most of us on this board are quite a bit older than you and have made our fair share of mistakes that we wish we hadn't made. The overriding message is that we want you to succeed emotionally and spiritually. The ultimate decision is in your hands and God will love you either way. He has already promised that. I for one would like for you to follow your heart, giving "character" and "value" whatever priority they have in your life. If you do that; you are being true to yourself.

FR

fhl04,
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I have to say that it's amazing you still post here considering you are constantly beat to death by other posters. <hr /></blockquote>I'll take that as a complement. Could be I'm too dense to know when to quit. Could be I'm not in a business that allows a lot of room for backing down and I don't know how.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'm a sensitive eprson, I want everyone to like me, and I want to "have it all together". <hr /></blockquote>I ain't sensitive, don't care if anyone likes me (Okay I care about a select few in the overall big picture), and gave up any illusion of ever getting it all together long ago.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Still, I don't want to be continually committing adultery...I've definitely gotta do something about that. <hr /></blockquote>I didn't mean too hurt you with that but its a fact and the truth is one of those things I don't know how to back down from. According to the American Heritage College Dictionary adultery is "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person other than the lawful spouse". I'm guilty, I did that. The catch is the "lawful spouse" part. Emotionally my divorce was over though and thats why I have no guilt. I am not/ will not encourage you or anyone else to do what I did. I won't encourage you to continue your "affair". If you feel guilt about it, maybe you should end it. What worked for me may not work for anyone else. My affair helped me move on and, contrary to what some others have been hammering at me, noone was hurt. Not my WxW, not my OW, not me. You have to do what works for you.

[ September 08, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: deafjeff ]

Fishracer, I know you're not trying to bust on me. I actually expected a lot worse!
DeafJeff, what?!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sorry, left click finger works faster than brain. Try it now, I think i fixed it.

there we go, I got it now. It has definitely helped me to move on too. (Is that a duh kind of thing to say?) I feel like I was like a cold, dead hand wrapped around my marriage. I couldn't have pried it loose to save my life. And it was killing me. I needed to let go, but couldn't. Even once I decided I wanted to and needed to, I was paralyzed because I didn't feel I could ever love or be loved again. I didn't think anyone would want me. I felt used and discarded like an old piece of furniture. I didn't think a 25 year old single mother would be very attractive to anyone. I thought I was doomed to live my life as a lonely single mom.
Now I know different, in fact, I think my self-image is better now than it was before!
I actually kind of feel sorry for STBXWH now. I will have my Master's degree and an awesome career (hopefully!), I will have my children (whom he only sees every other weekend), I will have a fulfilling relationship, AND I will have 40% of his income! Ha - Who gets the last laugh there?
I tried to get him to think about all he was losing before we got to this point, but he just told me not to "threaten" him. I was not threatening, I was warning. Oh well...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It has definitely helped me to move on too. (Is that a duh kind of thing to say?) <hr /></blockquote>Not a duh thing at all. Some don't get it. Some think we are going to burn for all eternity. Some think we are "in the fog". And really you have to be careful about that last one. I have seen some of the same words you and I have written here from some the "real" WSs too. You have to stay in touch with reality.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I feel like I was like a cold, dead hand wrapped around my marriage. I couldn't have pried it loose to save my life. And it was killing me. I needed to let go, but couldn't. Even once I decided I wanted to and needed to, I was paralyzed because I didn't feel I could ever love or be loved again. I didn't think anyone would want me. I felt used and discarded like an old piece of furniture. <hr /></blockquote>Exactly. I told my shrink I felt like I had been run over by a train. He said I had been at the bottom of a train wreck.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Now I know different, in fact, I think my self-image is better now than it was before!
<hr /></blockquote>Exactly again. Feels good to get better huh?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I will have my children (whom he only sees every other weekend) <hr /></blockquote>and <blockquote>quote:<hr /> AND I will have 40% of his income! Ha - Who gets the last laugh there? <hr /></blockquote>Well, now thats kinda cold from the view point of someone like me who was on dirty end of that stick. But I know what you mean and like you said, you warned him. I had no warning or choice. My WxW works in administration at our public school. She has gone to some of the teachers and told them how wonderful divorce is, you get every other weekend off and you get to collect all this child support. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. She has even encouraged some of them to do the same. She cheats, lies about it for years, cheats again and I get to pay her 25% of my paycheck for the right to see my kids 2 days out of 14. Thats kind of a sore spot.
Just be sure you aren't in the fog. Be upfront and honest with you new guy. You don't want to do to him what your WH did to you and vice versa. I'm trying to say you don't want to hurt him or him hurt you. Honesty helps prevent that.

I am sorry about that, it really isn't fair in cases like yours. I do feel TERRIBLE for BH's who get raked over the coals by their WW's. Especially losing the kids. In my case, I don't feel bad because he knew what he was doing and he chose it. He chose the single life and his obsession w/OW over his wife, kids AND money. Hope it's worth it!
It is a silver lining for me though. When I eventually re-marry, I'll have every-other weekend "off" to spend w/ my H, and a nice chunk of change to top it off. And I really don't feel guilty about that because I have to start over from scratch - go to school full time and raise two little ones alone. If it weren't for my parents I could never survive.
I guess maybe you could look on the bright side - it could be worse, at least it's 25% and not 40%! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />According to the American Heritage College Dictionary adultery is "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person other than the lawful spouse." I'm guilty, I did that. The catch is the "lawful spouse" part. Emotionally my divorce was over though and thats why I have no guilt. <hr /></blockquote>That's weird, imho. You're using two different rulers (standards) here to justify your actions (or maybe I'm missunderstanding you).....

LAWFUL ruler: Over when the requirements by law are fulfilled (i.e. divorce decree).

EMOTIONAL ruler: Over whenever you FEEL like it's over.

What are you saying? What is "the catch?"

[ September 08, 2004, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Ms.O ]

All right, Faith, I'm not going to bother arguing about whether your words or actions are qualitatively any different from your STBX's - not because the argument couldn't be made (and I can see both sides), but because I don't think it's the most pertinent question. The issue is really who do you want to be? If you are feeling guilty about what you are doing, then it's not good for you to be doing it. Also, consider this: you started out saying that what bothers you is the "technicality" of still being married, but as it turns out you have relaxed your value system beyond what it would take to justify allowing yourself to become "emotionally attached" to a new man. In fact, you have also violated the no-sex-before-marriage standard.

I believe there is a connection: once we have taken the first step in betraying our values, it becomes much easier to take the next step. And the next step again. (You are now "unwilling" to let go of your new relationship, even if that's what God would ask you to do.) And the next step again, until after a while you no longer even concern yourself about what God thinks.

Faith, I can well believe that your new relationship has helped you "move on" - but it's important not just to "move on" but also to move in the right direction. Right now you can see a bright future for yourself, but you are not yet that woman you envision. By your own admission, you choose your new man's arms over God's arms, and until you can bring yourself to change that choice, you will be on shaky ground.

I believe that the wisest course would be to do as Ms.O suggests, and to cut off communication with your new man until your divorce is final. That is, at least until your divorce is final. Learn to rest in God's arms instead. Then, if it is God's will for your new relationship to grow, you will be able to do it in God's time and in God's way. Remember Psalm 54:11.

Faith, I don't make this recommendation lightly, and contrary to Jeff's implication my concern isn't about whether you are "in the fog" or whether you will "burn for all eternity." It's a matter of what's best for you.

Addressing some specifics...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by faithhopelove04:
It's ironic. First STBXWH caused me so much pain by WANTING to divorce me, now WANTING the divorce to be over is causing me pain. It just is horrible how much limbo we have to go through, how much we have to put our lives on hold because of their selfishness.<hr /></blockquote>First, I know about the limbo - I've been there, and it was indeed horrible - but it doesn't mean we have to put our lives on hold.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />No, it was not my choice to end the M. What I meant was, IF he was still wanting to be with me, then I would be wrong for allowing my heart to be someone else's. And the next sentence meant should i try to change the fact that my heart is someone else, and if so, what's the point in the long run as far as what was our "marriage" goes.<hr /></blockquote>I don't think it's necessarily wrong to want the divorce to go through. Leading up to my divorce, there was nothing I wanted more than reconciliation with my wife. But, failing that, I desperately wanted the legal nonsense to end. The limbo wasn't doing anybody any good, and there was nothing I could do to bring about reconciliation.

As for your heart belonging to someone else, you can't choose your feelings directly. However, you can choose your actions and your attitudes. When I "fell in love" with a woman I couldn't "have," I made the choice to really love her - to desire what was best for her, even if what was best for her wasn't me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Somehow it seems more sick and degrading to me to be in a relationship like that than in the kind of relationship I'm in now. At least the person I'm with now WANTS to be with me, and isn't just using me and then throwing me out with the garbage.<hr /></blockquote>It seems more sick and degrading because it is more sick and degrading.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Maybe this is my awakening, to realize that I AM A SINNER, I AM HUMAN. I am not perfect and can't expect others to be either.
Still, I don't want to be continually committing adultery...I've definitely gotta do something about that.<hr /></blockquote>This is one of the reasons why cutting off all communication with your boyfriend is best. As painful as it sounds, it's actually the easiest way!

That woman I "fell in love" with? She's a friend, and I see her pretty frequently. It hurts a little less when I don't see her for a while. Not much less, but a little.

I've read this thread with interest, as it has brought up several points that I have struggled with. First of all, Faith, I *completely* understand your struggle. When my ex H left me for my best friend and she left her husband, her husband and I (already friends) turned to each other for emotional support. I was pregnant with our third child and felt strongly about fighting to the death for my marriage, and my friendship with OW's husband never got in the way of that, but I remember feeling weird about our friendship that crossed into some 'what if' conversations occasionally. At that point he and I were both still married, and we knew we couldn't do anything physical. God intervened on a few occasions to make sure we stayed on the straight and narrow. (Yay God!) We justified it a bit, saying "Don't we deserve to be happy" until we realized we sounded just like *they* did, and we knew we had a higher standard to live up to. I'm so glad we didn't go where we shouldn't have, and I have God to thank for that, because in my case "the mind was willing but the flesh was weak!"

Fast forward to a bit over a year ago. Our divorces had been final for well over a year and we had stayed close and had been good support for each other over the hard times. We still flirted with the 'what ifs' but I was trying to hard to stay chaste and not bend to the world's urging to 'get the happiness I deserved' after the nightmare of the very public affair, etc. One night I broke all of my rules and God's rules by having sex outside of marriage with him. It was anti-climatic, (little joke there!) and I didn't feel good about it at all. We justified that we knew each other so well and deserved a chance for us, and blah blah blah. I actively made a choice that I knew was going against God. I let Him down and I felt a lot of guilt about it. And I feel God couldn't bless a relationship that had at its center me knowingly and willingly breaking a commandment. He and I have remained friends, but I think any chance of a Godly relationship has been ruined.

I've done a lot of thinking about this whole premarital sex thing, and it comes down to trust in God. I enjoy sex a great deal, am fairly pissed off that I am missing my sexual prime, and can't picture a serious, adult relationship that doesn't include a physical piece to it. But just because I can't picture it, doesn't mean it can't be there. God works in amazing ways, and who am I to say "That is a nice idea, God, but it doesn't really translate well into today's society, so I'm going to have to disobey you on that one."

I have backed off of dating until I know that I can face the physical temptation without caving in. Of course part of me expects to be handsomely rewarded for this taxing effort on my part, with an amazing Christian husband who is a fabulous lover and is perfect for me. But that isn't the point either. The point is that we need to follow God for the purpose of following him, and we need to actively make the right choices, even when they go against our biggest wants and hopes and dreams, in your case.

If I were in your shoes, I would write a very difficult but heartfelt letter to your man, explaining exactly where you are coming from and what you feel you need to do to preserve your relationship. In my mind, that would be abstaining from a sexual relationship until you are married and committing to taking a break until your divorce becomes final. I would do it for the right reasons and for a selfish one. The right reasons are obvious, and the selfish one would be so I would feel God's blessing on this relationship that I wanted so badly. Good luck. I am rooting for you!!!

fhl04,
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am sorry about that, it really isn't fair in cases like yours. I do feel TERRIBLE for BH's who get raked over the coals by their WW's. Especially losing the kids. <hr /></blockquote>No need to apologize. Some of us get screwed, some like your WH get what they asked for. Life isn't fair. Oh well.

Ms.O,
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You're using two different rulers (standards) here to justify your actions (or maybe I'm missunderstanding you).....
LAWFUL ruler: Over when the requirements by law are fulfilled (i.e. divorce decree).
EMOTIONAL ruler: Over whenever you FEEL like it's over.
What are you saying? What is "the catch?"
<hr /></blockquote>I'm saying I admit by the definition of adultery that I am guilty because of those 2 words "lawful spouse" because WxW and I were still legally married at the time. I am also saying that I do not feel guilt about it because neither my WxW or I were emotionally married anymore. It was over. WxW was not hurt but my actions, if you are indifferent you can't be hurt by something like that. I also think that there is a big difference between my adultery and hers. People were hurt by her actions, including the years of lies and deceit, that ultimately destroyed our marriage.

GDP,
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Faith, I don't make this recommendation lightly, and contrary to Jeff's implication my concern isn't about whether you are "in the fog" or whether you will "burn for all eternity." It's a matter of what's best for you.
<hr /></blockquote>I don't think I named names but we share the same concern.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
 Faith, I don't make this recommendation lightly...It's a matter of what's best for you. <hr /></blockquote>Amen and Amen! GnomeDePlume gave you lots of great information. I really think you should consider it seriously.

Great post, GDP!

Thank you, GnomedePlume and whoamInow for your thoughtful responses.

WhoamInow - He and I have remained friends, but I think any chance of a Godly relationship has been ruined.
This is a concept I have actually mused over quite a bit, but I don't think it's true. I don't think because you guys messed up once that you could NEVER have a Godly relationship. Unless you mean that now that you've crossed that line you think it would be too hard to be togtether and not cross it again. In that case, that is logical.

Right now, I am leaning towards setting up some serious boundaries so that we won't be "going there" anymore. That would definitely make me feel A LOT better, even possibly eliminating all the guilt. I suppose we could do that and take it from there - see if it feels any better. I just really don't know that I could cut off all contact, I am not convinced enough that it is necessary to do that.

I have given thought to the whole idea that you should wait a certain amount of time to heal, to "find out who you are", etc. I feel that if I were to break this off for those reasons I would only be doing it because others have said it, to be able to say I did it, not because I feel it is necessary. On my own, I have no feelings of "am I really ready" "could I get hurt again?" etc. I know me pretty well, and I know that I am much better off in a loving, healthy relationship with someone I love than I am on my own. I'm not ashamed of that, and I don't feel the need to be 100% self-sufficient or 100% happy being alone before I am not alone.

Anyway, I honestly do think that once the physical aspect is under control that I will feel a million times better. I will feel better to when STBXWH gets back in town Tuesday, because then things could possibly be over in the next couple weeks.

WhoamInow - I guess I've kind of given up on the whole idea of being rewarded for sexual purity. STBXWH waited till we got married, and my sex drive went to he** after the first six months when I got pregnant. It took 4 years to come back. I would lay in bed and cry because I would think, "this is so unfair - I held back for so long when I wanted it so bad, and now as soon as I can have it, I don't want it." It was like a cruel joke. A very cruel joke.

I am seriosly considering what you all have had to say. Like I said before, my plan at the moment is to eliminate the sexual aspect of the relationship and see where that leads.

Thanks so much.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Mrs. O, I am not the " kind of person that would date while still married", maybe I am the kind of person who would date while separated, and I do think there is at least some difference. I also see a difference though between a separation where you're not sure what's going to happen and a separation in which you are literally in the middle of a divorce. <hr /></blockquote>And you know the future? You know your husband will not change his mind? Are you still praying for him to do so? Have you waited the two years after divorce that have the greatest chance at reconciliation? (My brother-in-law's wife was so angry with him that she could even stand to talk to him the three months leading up to their divorce. They re-married 18 months later.) Are you healthy enough to even be a party to a romantic relationship right now? It does not look like it from your posts. Are you ready for the changes in that relationship that will come as you get healthy? Or do you want to stay in recovery forever? God can heal your hurt, but not if you don't listen to Him, or are looking to a person to heal you.

My experience was that my marriage sucked, and I cried to God for help. He actually gave me an answer, but it made no sense to me, so I ignored it. Three years later, unknown to me, my wife's affair started. Three years after THAT, she confessed to me and ended it. A year later, after doing a lot of growing and learning, God's answer made sense...but I had to learn the hard way, instead of trusting Him. The hard way was SOOOOOO.... much more painful.

What advice would you give to another poster who described a situation like yours? Do you really want to give your kids the model of "Do as I say, not as I do."?