FTS,

I thought it best to create a new thread. I suspect others are going to post and did not want to interfere with Deeply Torn's thread.



I am sorry you too have found yourself in this situation.



Reasonable.



Well I am glad he decided to try and work things out.
I will not comment on the trigger part, I will take your word for it.



I don't have much to say about how OW feels about her "dream child", I do have comments about the stealing comment.
Your H, like me created an expense. Children MUST be taken care of an not be finacilly abandond. I know first hand that CS can be setup in a way that is UNFAIR. There are many example here, but some level of support must be given.

Don't take this as a defence of OW, but an acknowledgement of H's part in this mess. He, like I, have blame to bare. Unfortanly, the liability also spreads to the W and COM's.

I will disagree that OW alone is responsible for OC. For him it is just as much his as it is OW's child and he shares responsibility in that.




I agree.



Nothing wrong with telling the truth. I to will have to answer for what I have done.
However, Your H IS responsible for the outcome of OC just like he is any of the other children.
To walk away from that responsibility makes him a "deadbeat" like any other father that walks away.

There are circumstanses that make it impossable, but attempt should be made.
This however would not apply if OW is married and her H is willing to work things out. Diferent set of rules.



Yes it is devastating to all partys.

Children are children no matter how they got here. The shame of the parents acts should not be transferd to the child. I know it is hard to accept (and maybe you never will), But the OC is the child of your H and the brother or sister to your children that you had with your H.



I do not belive that a W should be forced to have contact with OW or OC if that is her chioce. She is ENTITLED to that choice. At the same time, it is ALSO unreasnable to expect (DEMAND) that a father walk out on his child finacialy and emotionaly.

Some will say that the M comes first, I belive that to applies when both parties are in agreement about continuing the M. But it is not wrong for a man to feel for his children. ALL OF THEM!


In a case where thier is disagrance, then with the expeirance I have went thru, I would sugest a cooling off period
so that focus can be given to the M. If after 6 months to a year or focusing on the M, the H still wants contact and the W will not, then I would question wether the M should continue.

At that point, a decision could be made with a clear mind.


I can name ten off the top of my head. Many post on this very board.



I don't disagree with you entirerly on this. The OC is innocent, but the "primary concern" part you have a point.
Basic needs of OC should be met, then focus on the M.


TH

Oh man TH, just when we were on at least a 3 month run of peacefulness around here......

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Those are some good points TH.

LOL, AD you took the words right out of my mouth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

NC/C should be a POJA issue in my opinion. OW does not factor into this decision but the OC does deserve financial support at the very least. I believe every couple has the right to decide C or NC. It is a very difficult situation all the way around.

FTS, it sounds as though you are still hurting. How is your M recovering?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That was funny.

Great points made though!!!! Great points

TH I browsed some of your former printing and know that I could let loose with hurtful and mean things. That is not what this is about. Circumstances dictate to all of us.
Yes Faithful, I'm still hurting. I have my good days. Work is great because you can't think about yourself and so you find a week goes by an you can actually laugh and have fun. Then another letter shows up reminding you what a failure your past has been. What you thought you were working on for your children, family and future together wasn't real. It has been tainted by images that overlap. You rememer the vacation you took in autumn with the family only to now know that OW was pregnant and calling everytime you and WS were apart. Whatever good times you thought you were having and building go up in smoke. You can't speak to anyone about the A without falling apart. We moved because I didn't want her showing up on my door with my children. WE decided it was best for our kids not to know. One is 9 and one is 18. Only ten people in the State I left knew about the A. No one here knows about it.
I find it very hard to have any respect for myself for staying in the M. I love my H. We are starting to do well most of the time. But I spent time on antidepressants and was very close to ending it 6 months after discovery. My children were the only reason I didn't. I also ended up with one of the cervical cancer strains of HPV that the OW passed on to my H. My PAP has finally returned to normal, but I still have to go every three months.
I never believed that this man was capable of such coldhearted cruelty. There are many men out there that I wouldn't doubt that behavior from, FWS wasn't one of them. My confidence in my ability to trust people is gone. I will never trust another person do be decent or honest. Every interaction is a new test.
I am not against him having to provide REASONABLE support. But she tagged on an extra $480 a month in daycare expense above the calculated support, she is not using because she won't work. She showed the courts a paper saying she started the day before as a temp. worker for $8/hr so she could ask for the daycare costs. (An Extra $24,000 before CS can be recalculated).
WH is NOT a deadbeat dad. He is paying the money. OW didn't want C.

The couselor we saw tried to convince us that OC deserved C. WS can have all the contact he wants with OC or with COM, his choice. COM do not have unknown siblings. Siblings grow up with you and share the same experiences, vacations, bad teachers, house rules. Our society has forced some of them to grow up only sharing half of those. The worst thing for my oldest son was to maintain contact. A single home, single set of values is were we get our values base. Just because genetics are partially the same does not make people family. I do not believe that blood is more important. I believe that heart, respect and caring from sharing similar family experiences are.
I am not a saint, I can not have the OC in my life and NEVER the OW. I would never have done this to my H. (I know every one is capable of it) I AM NOT. I believe in my heart and gut that you do not start something knew until you have finished with the old. I do not believe you get something in the wings to flee to when you end the old.
TH do not preach to me from your point. You were capagble of intentionally doing the most destructive thing in the world to the person you vowed to protect and cherise. You did it, you additionally put her health at risk for your enjoyment, you put your children's emotional well-being at risk, you add injury to insult by having another family with the OW and trivializing your family and there importance by wanting to bring the HO's ****** (My apologies but according to Webster this is the correct term) into your children's life as though this is something normal and anyone who can't see that has a problem. Those of us who cannot bear contact think you are WRONG!!
Sorry, I got a little emotional there again. For those of you that have circumstances and the heart to be able to make C work, I applaude you, but I can't.

>but I can't.

It's okay.

C/NC is a personal husband/wife choice.

I know the words are too small to make much of an impact on your feelings right now, but it WILL get better.


((((((((FTS))))))))

{{{FTS}}}

Good to get you talking about this, it helps the healing process. I want you to try to look at this from another perspective ok? IT is easier to quit. You took the hard road, the road paved with respect by working things out with your H. I am not saying that those the choose D are wrong, I am saying that staying with someone who doubly betrayed you is HARD. My friend Kimmy who just posted to you has TWO OC in her life. You know what? She is happily recovering. It can be done. The contact or no contact is your choice. As much as I have wanted a chance to love on the OC, the longer this crap by OW goes on the more I see NC as the only way to go for me as well. This concerns me. Don't the courts require her to provide proof of daycare expenses? How is she managing to do this? Do you have a good attorney? Sorry I was not accusing your H of being a deadbeat, just meant to convey that OC (not the OW) deserves the support as they didn't choose the circumstances of their birth.

I am so sorry about the HPV. Getting an STD from your spouse is shocking and extremely hurtful.

I was a WS in my M at one point. No one would have ever thought I was capable of it either. I have turned myself inside out and upside examining the why's of it all. I can tell you with all honesty that I am not that person any more. What is important is for your FWH to know the why's and place strict boundaries on himself and to EARN your trust back. No you will never implicitly trust again but you can and should trust. I hope you are getting some help for yourself as well as the marriage.

God bless you.

FTS,


Yes I have a past, yes I wish I could change it. But now all I can do is own it.


I know. It was difficult for me to own up to what I did to my W. I hope your H is quicker at it than I was.



Like I said above, it CAN BE UNFAIR.



I don't expect you will change your position anytime soom if ever. It not difficult for me to read that you have been put thru the ringer. I won't even pretend I understand how deep the pain goes.

But as far as what the OW wants, who cares???????


My experiance with coudelors was pretty rotten as well.

Is your H currently out of the fog?
Has he been doing everything he can to show you Love and Affection? Has he expressed how sorry he is for what he has done?



I will admit that my life experiance has influenced how I feel about some of these subjects. I don't know what all of your experiances were that bring you to your conclusions.


Well, I am by far not a saint myself. All we can do is try to soften our hearts and move on.



Yes, I am guilty of all of that. I heaped great amounts of pain on my family. Even after DDAY, I was to blind and unskilled to try and turn things around.

It took the help of some books and VERY special people on this board to help me see the right way to do things. Even then there were many times I failed.

I sure there will be times I will fail again to be the H my W needs me to be. But I will not give up, I will continue to try to learn to be the H that my W needs me to be.

I love her with all my heart, and it kills me inside to know what I did to her.


Feel free to yell at me anytime.
TH has got a pretty thick skin. :-)

I wish you the best,
TH

Lovely post, TH. TFS, as you can see we all have different experiences we bring to the table. That is the beauty of these posts. Keep posting.

Faithful,
We had a very good attorney. The courts don't care. The state does not want to support this child. She showed a hand written receipt from a friend saying she was charging $120 per week daycare. She showed a piece of paper saying she had been hired by a temp agency the day before. This OW had not held a job since before she became pregnant. The child is two now. The courts have assigned an order and do not want to be bothered for at least four more years. She received two rental properties from her XH, one to live in one to rent. She can afford to live off the child support for the next sixteen years.

We are working on this together. The last six months with moving and all it involves has also taken a lot emotionally. It's hard when everything is great. I know that I can not do the C. I also know that there is agreat deal of fear that at sometime in the future my FWH could feel the loss of OC and leave me and mine because of it. I will never be free of that fear either.

TH,

I'm sorry for that attack. It is very difficult not to respond when any of those arguements come up. For me, he disregarded me and everyone I love for fifteen minutes in the sack. Thought if noone knows, what the hay. He has true remorse and like you claims to regret that for the rest of his life, the pain it caused and what he saw it do to me. It doesn't undo it though. It doesn't make us believe or trust. Somedays it is hard to breathe. I would love nothing better to go back to oblivion believing I was married to the most incredible man in existence. Not one without problems, but one who loved me, and wouldn't "intentionally" hurt me, our children, or the rest of those who care about us.
Thank you for having thick skin!!

TH, I don't come on this board much at all as my FWH had an A, but no OC was produced.

I just want to say to you and all of the others in this sitch, God Bless You. I really, really don't know how I would handle this one. I just really think that all of you who stay with your spouses in this situation are truly SAINTS.

Best of Luck.

Dear Fled,

you said:



Due to my recent personal experience with this very issue ... I must say I 100% agree with you

A half-brother of mine recently found out his mother lied to him for 62 years about who his father was.

This now 62 year old man introduced himself to me and my siblings (that' fine) .. but was insisting that we are now brother & sister ... and although I was willing to consider a friendship that would evolve by getting to know each other ... he pushed and pushed and PUSHED to the point of obsession ... and I had to tell him to leave me alone ....

you are correct

siblings are who you grow up with

Pep

Thank you Pep,

Not all agree with that. I think it is very personal, that it must effect you in some manner to really underrstand the difference.

Hanging in there and getting better "most" of the time

FTS

My Dad did not make an OC

he was married to her (WWII time)
while he was deployed, she moved in with OM

when Dad returned, she said OM was the father, not my Dad

they annuled
birth certificate did not name my Dad as the father

she lied for decades

it's that thing called THE TRUTH that bites ... even after 60+ years !!!

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

TH, I actually agree with some of what you wrote in your first thread, but I do find a problem with this portion...as I'm sure that you already know.

TH, a father who walks away from an OC is NOT a deadbeat as long as he handles his financial responsibility, and if he is a deadbeat to the OC, he was already a deadbeat to the COMs because he walked away from them too and created another life with another woman, and you can't walk back from that. Every minute, every second, every milisecond spent with the OC is time that he stole from his COMs...I believe that.

What irritates me with the form of thinking that a man who goes NC is a "deadbeat", is that you can now find the time and the compassion to think about the OC, but never, not once when sleeping with the OW did any of the MM have that same compassion or time to think of the COMs. The MM walked right out of their lives and didn't even look back once, you showed them a form of NC, and didn't give a damn, now a BS is supposed to bend over backwards and have some compassion for a child that is not hers, created out of disrespect to her and her children...and they are supposed to understand the bond between father and child? Where was that bond with her children....

I guess my point is...why argue the point now that the OC is a child and deserves your attention and anything less makes you less than a man, when the COMs weren't worth that same argument during the affair?

In my opinion a "deadbeat" doesn't pay his responsibility...I agree that he owes financially (I still have problems with the CS laws, but that's another discussion), but beyond that every other moment that he has belongs to his COMs and his wife...that is the true price the MM pays for having a child outside of his marriage...the price he pays for himself and the price he makes his OC pay. Here is my example: If you belong to A company and you give your services to B company and they prosper, too bad, you are contracted to A and had no business at B...your loss.

Just FYI...I have not read the whole thread...I didn't get past your post TH...:D

CH I think that is just a matter of opinion depending onwhere you are mentally with this. I do agree that if they are not there they are deadbeat. No matter how the child gets here. 'Example.........my xh has always paid cs. Up until he moved in with his gf he was neverconsistant with our com. Breaking promises to them and then making stupid excuses why he won't come get them or spend time with them. He was a dead beat father.

Although him and his gf drive me crazy I am so thankful that he has stable visation with them and has taken a bigger role in there life. They know he lies and breaks his promises (in different ways now) but they love there dad and the sun and moon falls with him and for that I am very very thankful.

My biggest fear is that they will break up (again as much as they drive me crazy) and he will go back to the ole daddy he was. I know that it's easier for him cause he has her to watch them and tell them what to do and care for them, but at least he is there for the most part for them to see his face. Kwim?

Again though I believe the whole dead beat father thing is a matter of opinion with what has happend to you in your life and where you are mentally. JMHO.

Hello CH,


I don't buy that! I can buy it about OW, not OC.
When it comes to my children, they are all equal.


No, the BS is NOT OBLIGATED to feel or do anything. It is a choice. The father how ever does have obligations that go beyond just money. Just because a man is married, does not give him a free pass to skip out on all of his duties.

I reliaze I can't do all things I would like to for my daughter as I will for my son's. It does not mean however that I should not try. Many a divorced father is in the same boat. Many try hard to show love and support to children they do not live with.

I don't buy the theroy that somehow OC are less than other children. Children are children and I will take care of mine.


Well CH, the BOND must have been strong with my family. We are still togther. Many may wonder why, but we are. I love my W very much. I am lucky to have her.

To me the relationship between father and child starts as responsibilties. It later grows to a bond. Again, I don't expect a BS to care or not. But I as a father have a duty and obligation to keep. All of my children are mine equal.

A father may feel he has to be NC to save his marriage. But in IMHO, he has failed one of his children. He has to live that down in addition to his adulterous behaviour.

TH

Wow TH I did not realize you had contact w/ your oc. I am impresed. Your wife is a saint!!!! Lead me somehow to your story about it.

As far as this statement:
"A father may feel he has to be NC to save his marriage. But in IMHO, he has failed one of his children. He has to live that down in addition to his adulterous behaviour."

I agree with this statement. I know that most here don't agree with that statement though. I feel that ANY father who goes NC with his kids due to any circumstances must one day accept the fall out from that regardless if it is here on earth or when you meet your maker. Don't get me wrong we all have things to face, but it's one thing to buckle up and do things right once the deeds have been done, but to continue to go through life not fixing all miskakes of our lives and adding to that list...is a total different.

oops double post

atpeace....marysway...whoever you are today, TroubledH could direct you to his story, but from what I remember......he deleted most of it. IMO the most telling parts. Parts that would show you that he was willing to throw his wife, COM and his M into the wind if his wife didn't buck up and jump on his Contact bandwagon.

So, I'm sure you'll still be his cheerleader because, afterall, he put an OC first. From his early post I believe he said he was a Christian, but I'm not so sure he knows all about the part of "foresaking all others" even mother, father and children. But, I think I understand where his steele-strong convictions come from when it comes to his non-negotiation stance when it comes to his OC. He may also feel, deep down inside, where things are not shared outside of yourself, that he may be able to erase his first sin (the adultry) if he does the, so called, right thing.




And many feel that ANY father that is willing to walk away from an already established wife and children for the sake of the OC must accept the fallout too. I think "the maker" may have much more "fallout" to dish out to those that stand in you & TroubledH's shoes. Regardless of how much he THINKS he's handling his responsibilities NOW.

YOUR OPINIONS ON NC ARE JUST THAT..........YOUR OPINIONS.

I guess adoption would be considered wrong and a sin in your world too, huh?

Don't get me wrong, I do commend TroubleH for trying to be in the life of his OC. I just don't support the tactics he used to do it (emotional blackmail of his wife) and I definately question his motives (in love with the OW).

Let me reiterate my point that brought this response....every minute, second and millisecond spent with the OC is stolen from the COMs....I know that you love your daughter very much, and that is admirable, but in reality her mere existence is wrong. You can make lemonade out of lemons, but realistically speaking, she shouldn't be here, therefore all of your attention and love should be for your COMs, however, because of her existence, that love and attention must be shared.

Now before I get jumped on, I'm not saying that an OC has no place on the earth or anything like that...what I am saying is that the action that brought forth this child's existence is wrong and should not have happened, therefore the child should not have happened...that's the reality of it. Now dealing with the facts, the child is here and tough decisions must be made. Each person makes those decisions according to their personal beliefs...everyone will have to answer for their parts in this mess...NC or C fathers, OW mothers...the whole lot.



The father has obligations, but what about the husband and father to the COMs? Just because a man has a child with his mistress, doesn't give him a free pass with his existing family either. His duty and obligations are to his wife and the children from that union, everything and everybody else is secondary....their wants and needs come first...and if it doesn't then...well, that's the MM's decision.

I honestly don't believe that a marriage can survive contact unless both parties (H and W) are wholeheartedly for it, if not, then I believe the marriage will fail. If the marriage fails then the MM has neglected his marital duties and responsibilities, and to me that is allowing an outside influence to ruin the family...which is also wrong.



I'm glad for you and Mrs.TH...I truly am. I know how far you guys have come, and I'm so happy for you both.



A MM who has an OC will have alot to live down whether he has C or not...just as an OW with OC will have to live down things whether she's mother of the year or not. Taking care of a child doesn't absolve everything. If you ask for forgiveness, then whether you have C or not, you can be forgiven. You have to do what YOU feel is right. If C is the route for one, then more power to them, however if NC is your route, more power to you as well....in other words, the sin was in the act, if your doing what you feel is best (C or NC) then you can still be forgiven.

I've only made the mistake of posting here one other time and got caught up in this then. I have had time to go back and try to read some of TH's posts, and many from the general board and recovery board. All that I have found on the recovery board talks about time, the time it takes to heal. I am almost two years out from discovery day. I discovered the A and OC on the same day. The OW waited until she discovered that I wasn't kicking him out to pursue her financial needs. There are no winners. But I do not agree with TH. If he had been my WS he would now be my XH. Then the COM would be suffering even more than the OC, who shouldn't exist in the fiirst place.

My FWS A was not an EA but PA, She chased and offered. He thought he was getting something for fun and free. Her whole point in it was to conceive. She did using fertility monitoring to set up the assignation. It worked.
My FWS now pays exorbinent CS. He knew that I could not survive contact. The depression this whole A put me in would have ended in suicide if he had insisted on contact. The OC does not gain significantly by having contact. He would just be torn apart by separate rules, customs etc. just as children of divorce are. Contact would have also pushed these things on the COM. So, instead of a slight positive change for one child, it would become devastating contact for 2 COM, total destruction of the lives they were living, and destruction of the marriage due to on going contact with OW.
My COM are not small, they would understand that FWS cheated on mom. That what dad did was wrong, further that mom was willing to put up with it. This is personal and humiliating. I do not want my sons growing up believing that A's are ok. Because of the unbelievable pain A's create in the BS there is no way for a teenage boy to maintain a relationship with FWS. This destroys the COM. Destroys the BS. She is fighting for her own sanity and recovery. To have to defend her actions to a teenage boy railing at life already? Why destroy the lives of all the children?
I know that we would not still be together and that my children would not be living their lives as they have continued to, if the OC had been brought into their lives. They are not missing anything by not knowing about the A, the betrayal by their Father of their mother, family, and themselves, or the existstance of OC by OW.
The highly expressed need of contact by TH strikes me as very selfish. (This is not an attack TH-you made it work congrats-just my point of view).

Yes she is!



You are correct, I did delete a lot of it.

I was angery at Justuss for deleting some of my graphic detail about abortion on one thread. I had assumed she was pro-abrotion and was censoring my views because she opposed my view.

I have since seen her delete other who are VERY pro-abortion, so I am left feeling that they would rather not have the topic come up at all. If that is the rule, thats the rule. But that is why I went on the delete rampage. I do regret doing that. It could have been a valuable tool for me to help others.

The short story is this:

I had an affair for 4 years. I knocked the OW up 1 1/2 months into it.
During that time I was convince that my W would leave me. I settled into thinking that I would end up with OW.
During the A, I felt me and OW were meant to be togther ("bubble") thinking. It never crossed my mind that my W would really want to stay with me. After DDAY I keep thinking, why??????????? After all I have done, you want me to stay??????????? Why??????????????????


Finally guilt, shame, failuer of duties, and a lot of other things. I finally spilled the beans.
I could not live myself anymore. I knew I was failing everyone.

Most of the pages deleted was page after page of dealing with withdrawl. I strugled back and forth about "the right thing". Things like "are the W and I going to make it?", "can my W and I be happy?", "who do I love more?"
On and on it went page after page, day after day. Really made a lot of BS pretty mad around here.

One day at home it came to a head. MrsTH said, if you love her that much, GO!!!!!!!!!!!!
My first thought was "finally!", but somehow, for some reason, I couldn't leave. It was confusing at the time.
So at that point, I decided I had made a decsion. I had no idea how we were going to work it out, but knew I was going to try. I just could not leave my family. Divorce was failuer I was not going to accept without trying.

Many of the ladies here keep telling me how I was in the FOG. I rejected much of it. But they were right. You just don't see it when you are in withdrawl. All you feel is pain. Lots of it.

Counserlors we seen were a joke and a waste of money. The first real help came from a friend who gave us a book called "Love and Repspect". It helped me understand a lot of what had gone on for 8 years. It was the first tool to show me how things could be differnt. I went on to read "His/Her Needs", "surving the affair". All of these books had a profound impact on my thinking. I saw how I had really failed my W. How I was not doing a good job of caring for her top needs. It wasn't that I wasn't willing pre-A, I just didn't know any better. I just did not realize how vital it was to have a balenced approch to M. I was so focus on providing finacial needs, that I negelcted almost everything else.

As you may imagine, my W was not thrilled with me either. So when someone was there to tell me I was "all that and a bag of chips", it felt GOOD!, Really good! I knew it was wrong to my core, but I fell. I continued to fall for the next 4 years, playing a stupid balencing act between the W and OW. I was litteraly a junkie.

As for throwing my W "under the bus", yes, I probley would have left. I am not proud of that fact, but at the time I probley would have. I felt overwhelemd by guilt and responsibility. I knew I could throw OW under the bus, she was an adult and made just as stupid mistake as I had. She was on her own far as I cared once I made my mind up.

My sons and daughter on the other hand, I was determind to do as much as I could for each of them. I know this is less than perfect, but it was the way I could live with myself.

Do I love my W, yes VERY MUCH. I am forever gratefull to my W that she can see past my shorthcommings, pigheadedness, and ego and still let me love her. I am far from a perfect H, but with Gods help, I will darn well do my best to let her know everyday that I love her.

In addition I thank God for some great books and a woman name Kimmy. I know she doesn't agree with everything I do or say, but I will forever be gratefull. Without her guidence, I have no idea what would have happened.



Yes, I do belive in the Almighty. "forsaking all others" can be taken to an extream. I am sure there are many H's or W's who have used this very line to isolate spouces from there families other than just OC's. It just comes down to where you draw a line.



I can tell you first hand that the feeling of faiuler does not go away. All you can do it own what you have done.
And again, try to do as right as you can to you W, COMs, and your OC.


I can admit now that I did handel things the wrong way after DDAY. The advice I would give now to a WS in my shoes would be this. Get yourself away from OW for six months. Read and learn how to provide for the needs of your W.
If you want C with OC. State it up frount, don't hide it. But be commited to rebuild the M.

If after six months. If you and your W don't agree, then with a "clear" mind. You can decide wether you want to stay in the M. As much as I would like to think that all M can work, sometimes they do not.



Not going to disagree with this.


I have learned the hard way that I can't always give everything my wife wants. There are always outside influences that affect a M. It is how a couple decides how they are going to deal with them that will determine if they are going to survive.

Even if I was willing to go NC, I still would want it. I know I would be resentful regaurdless if "I have it comming". I can't give my W the feeling that I don't want contact. I don't have it to offer.



FTS,

I am not going to pick your last post apart (not now anyway, probley never). All I read is a lot of pain.
I responed to CH because I have a good idea where she at. CH and I have traded agruments for a while now. ( I suspect I would like her IRL.)

Has your H reach out to you? Has he been showing you that he is sorry for what he has done?
Does he spent quality time with the family? Does he show the love and affection you need?

I know these questions probley should come from someone else on this board, but I am struck at the level of pain I see you in.

To answer one of your statements, Affairs are NEVER ok. I as well as most people here know how destructive they can be. I feel it everytime I hold my wife when she cries in my arms.

Yes it is humillating for the world to know, but it is not the end of the world either. Everyone one has dirt under the rug, some are just better at hiding it.

Due to me comming out and being honest with the world, I have have a chance to reach out to others. If there is lemonade to be made out of lemmons, that is it.

If you are intersted in seeing more recent posts I have made, I would encourage you to visit www.survivingbetrayal.com. You will see many familer people there.

I don't expect everyone to agree with how I feel about things, but I do want to leave you with a feeling that things can work out. There is hope.

I wish you the best,

TH

Just to set the record straight and clarify.....

It makes no difference if "I" am pro or anti abortion. As a moderator I have no right to express MY PERSONAL opinion. The edits were made because of the "graphic detail" and personal attack against a poster for the "suggestion" of considering abortion. The starter of this thread was new, scared, extremely confused and begging for help.

MB members are free to discuss abortion. Infact, if I remember correctly, I even encouraged an abortion discussion on a separate thread at that time. Knowing how nasty those threads can become I wanted it away from the newbie's thread.

TH, my intent was never to insult you, offend you or hurt you. I'm sorry you got so angry. But I'm also VERY pleased to see the progress you have made in your relationship with your W. May you find more & more happiness as you continue on your road to recovery.

Justuss,

Thanks for the kind words.

I admit, I bashed that guy pretty hard who suggested abortion.

As far as the young woman, I never had any intention to hurt her. In all honesty, I felt bad for her.

TH

Hello Atpeace...



Actually he's not a deadbeat, he's just not doing what you may think is what he's supposed to do. In my opinion his responsibility is fulfilled when he sends the check.

Ideally, we would hope that 2 parents can raise their child together, however, due to the circumstances that's not always possible, therefore the next best thing is paying CS and that to me is responsible. I would also venture to say that any parent that calls what another parent does "names" could be called those exact same names. Don't worry about what another does, do what you have to do...that goes for MM or OWs. Lie in the beds that you make...that goes for everyone...it just depends on what you think those beds are...for some it's involvement with the OC, for me its all monetary.



That's true

That is a very good point, but I believe continuing any type of relationship with the OW, which includes the OC at a young age, is a mistake, and to continue that mistake is something that we will have to answer to as well.

I'm sorry that there may be a child out here whose father or mother is not a part of their life, and its not the child's fault, its the parents, but to do what one may deem is right for a child at the detriment of a family is a bigger wrong...of course this is JMO.

What would life be like with responding to me...:D...of course you know that I speak from the heart...I honestly believe in what I'm saying, and I respect opposing positions as well.

Now back to business....



I don't necessarily believe there is a line. That is why marriage is an important decision, and should be done with alot of thought. If you can't forsake all others (OWs, OCs, Owhatever), then divorce...don't beat around the bush, don't argue points, get out. Do that for yourself as well as your spouse. Marriage is not an institution of democracy...it is Marriage, there is noone else involved...



I can completely understand that sentiment...and if my H had taken the same stance, our marriage would probably have ended. That is something he would have to answer for as well. I'm not saying that the child is a sin, but any way you put it, the mere existence of that child is a mistake, and whether you are C (with or without salvaging the marriage) or NC, you will answer for it. By being involved in the child's life or not doesn't absolve the fact that the child should not be here. It doesn't absolve the pain that you put in your family...whether they deal with it or not.

My H decided that his committment was to me and our marriage. He realized that he may possibly have had a child with a woman that he had no business being with, and therefore ended up with a child that should not have been conceived. He did what he thought was best for me and his marriage first...and I thank him for thinking of me and our marriage first. What was best for us was NC, for other's it may be C...whichever way it goes. I would not have considered him a deadbeat or a scumbucket...he was those things when he turned away from the marriage...now he's my H who may have been forced to make CS payments for 18 years. He's a man that messed up and owned up for his mistake. Because he didn't want to further risk his marriage and have C did not make him a bad guy...and if it did, then leaving this marriage for the benefit of a child outside of it would make him a bad guy too, so I feel like he made the right decision.

Hey CH how are you?

I maybe jumpin around a bit sorry.



No need to be sorry. I've always said that the person involved is responsbile for his/her actions. I don't care who is influncing him/her we are all adults here with minds of our own. Again in JMHO I feel we all feel about the second part of what you said above goes with what has happened in our own personal lives. I can bet that if a relative or close friend of mine was murder I would have different issues w/the death penilty.

LOD:


I am one in the same and which ever you perfer is fine.



I agree and have always stated that IMHO.



It has nothing to do with him putting the oc first. It has everything to do with him being in oc's life and incorporating her/him into his family and them making it work.

I've seen where the xmm has wanted nc in order to make his marriage work then resented bs for it after a while. (not in all cases). So maybe TH was not putting the oc aside to put his marraige back together as all think he should have, but he DID tell his feelings about OC and took that chance as bad as you all felt it is.

NONE of you blamed his wife for being mad at him for this as I understand it. But at least the lies stopped correct?

TH said it that if he had it to do over again he would have gone nc for 6 months to work harder on his marriage then incorporated his oc into there lives. I guess I just don't get it. I see it as he can't win cause he has contact. I won't be seen as anything because I was the ow. He was the xmm. We all have to live with ourselves. We have to live with what we can and can not do. It maybe easier for one person to forget (or let go) of a child where as it maynot be for another. It is what it is.

I had to own what I did and my part in it. I also had to choose what I could and could not live with. My oc's father has to do the same.

Owning what you do is a huge deal and not alot of people can do that. I've seen where a lot of xmm have placed blame on the ow for even being with them. That is not owning your faults....nor is well I know I did this, but if it were not for ow..................nope that is not owning it.....or same goes for ow...........well I should have never done this but I was not the one married..........NOPE it does not work that way.

Oh someone asked me if I feel adoption is wrong. Oh heck no! It's the most selfless act a person can do. At the same time if a woman can not doit and can care for that child she should not be forced into one because the other factor does not want the child. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

CH,


If I didn't have someone to trade agruments with, I probley would not be happy :-)

As you say, back to buisness.


As you have seen in my past posts, I was ready to ditch the M. It was not all about just the OC either. The prior 4 years in my M were MISERABLE. I am not saying I didn't have my faults, I did, and have been working to correct them. So has my W, and that is why we are still togther.

You black and white description of "forsake all others" to me is just not realistic. I deal with the effects of her parents all the time, she deals with mine. Both sides are a screwed up mess. Point is, we deal with interferance from other people all the time in our M. We chose what we are willing to give up, and what we are willing to live with.

I would have understood if my W said "take a hike" for the position I took. I have done my best to show her that I want to be with her, that I DO LOVE HER. You CAN do that and love ALL your kids.

I would not "forsake" my COM's either for ANY reason.

The best you may get out of me is how I went about it was wrong, but the end result would have been the same. It is who I am.

Some men may be OK to let go, I am not one of them.


That's very generous of you CH :-)


The act of sex outside the M was the mistake. That is where the focus should be.

The child itself has every right and privlige to exsitance and acceptance as anyone else on this planet.


Agian, the act of sex outside the M should not have happend.
Putting the word child in that sentance implies guilt and shame on to the child for the acts of the parents. That my friend is wrong.

How the child got here is irelivent, the child is here and has needs like any other child. It IS entiteled to the best efforts of the parents. That does not imply that OC should be placed above COM's, just equal.


Never said or meant to imply that it absolved anything, but merly as a part of the process to put all of our lives back togther.


I know you have doughts about me on this one, but I am lucky it is only MrsTH's opinion that matters here.

CH, on the rest of the post not sure how to responed to you.
You and your H doged the bullet. Like many have said, you just don't know what you will do when really faced with that situation. Time often changes hearts and minds.

TH

Hey Atpeace...I hope all is well with you and yours...:D

Alright TH, here we go....:D




It is realistic, if used the way I meant. I mean if it is between the marriage surviving or not surving...it means to forsake ALL others. If we are talking about upsetting one partner or another, then I agree, forsaking all others is a bit extreme. I'm talking survival. Having a child by another woman is DEEP.



You can definetly love your wife and ALL your children as well as the OC, but where is it written that NC is not showing love...just a thought.

I would hope that you would not forsake anyone for your marriage...it should never be a decision that has to be made unless us mere humans put ourselves in crazy positions. Do you get what I'm saying? There is no reason for you to have to "forsake" the COMs for your marriage, other than they becoming grown and doing something stupid that could tear your marriage up, and if they are grown, then....but when have an affair and impregnate another woman then you put yourself in a jacked up position where jacked up decisions have to be made.



The child is not a sin, but I reiterate that the child should not be here, doesn't change the fact that she's here and that you love her, but she should not be here.

Every child should have the right and priviledge of existence, but parents make the decision about acceptance. I'll use an analogy from the "Cosby Show"...I loved that show...."if I offer you a prime rib, cooked to your preference, and placed it on a table with fine linen...you would have more acceptance of it than if I gave you the same steak and potato on the lid of a garbage can"...its all about presentation. It was you and the OWs job to present your children in a particular way, and you all didn't do that, and that is a disservice to your daughter, and totally you and the OWs fault, but its not going to stope the issues your daughter will face because of you all's presentation. You can do the best you can do, but it doesn't change the fact that this is a child of an affair, and her existence, while special, was painful for many. That will NEVER change...and it's sad that this is not her fault and the problem isn't with her, the problem was created by her parents, but she is the one who will pay the price.



There is no shame or guilt towards the child, but that doesn't take away from what I'm attempting to say. The child is not a sin, the act was, however, if the act shouldn't have happened then the child would not be created therefore the child should not be here. I realize that the child is here, and that can't be retracted, but I'm just being real.



TH, we definetly dodged a bullet...but for almost 11 mos...my H was the father of an OC, and because my H was not the father, I would expect me to lighten my stance on NC, because really it would not be an issue. However, after dealing with this horrid situation, nothing changed with how I felt. My H and I had discussed having C with the child when the child got older, and I was open to that, and could understand it then and now. My feelings are similar to many women who do have OCs so I know I'm not speaking alien to everyone.

I get your point TH, this is just one of our old faithful "agree to disagree"...:D

'In a case where thier is disagrance, then with the expeirance I have went thru, I would sugest a cooling off period
so that focus can be given to the M. If after 6 months to a year or focusing on the M, the H still wants contact and the W will not, then I would question wether the M should continue.'
So basically, what you did TH, was blackmail your wife by saying she either had to accept your OC in the six month time frame you alloted, or you were going to leave the marriage. Some POJA HUH!

Cherise,

I do not belive I have had the pleasure of you posting to me before. :-)


Well what I have said in eairler posts and maybe missed in this one was if I could do it over; I would give six months to focus on the M and reasure my W. Then after 6 months "review and talk about" contact. Part of any review may end in disolving the M, maybe not. It might be that every 3 to 6 months, we would talk about the situation again. Last time I checked, your to be fully open with your feelings with your W! NOTHING is off limits.

Some may call that BLACKMAIL, others may call it CHOICE.

I feel the most important thing is this: You will be making a desion with a clear mind if you have stayed away from OW for six months. After that, it really about how you two are acting as a couple. Do you two even want to stay M is the question.

After dealing with this experiance, C or NC is not going to be the only factor in a divorce. It would only be used as an excuse.

TH