Thought I would give a recap, since I feel weird posting on here talking to other people who may not know or remember my story. I'm going to make it short, because I really don't want to revisit any of this stuff too much.

I am a FWW and FBS. My H was involved in a 10-year EA with his ex-girlfriend that began 1 week after our wedding. He finally came clean and broke it off. Three years later, I had a PA with a man I met in my MFA program. My A lasted for 6 months. I finally decided that I wanted to give my M a fighting chance, and 2 weeks later, I discovered that I was pregnant with OM's baby.

OM is not a part of our lives. We have been completely NC since early Sept. He has never seen OC and does not want to. My H is on the birth certificate. We love our daughter very much and my H considers her his in every way except for the DNA. OC is now 13 months old and is an absolute joy. She is living proof that good things can come from bad situations.

I wouldn't do my A over again for all the money in the world, but I couldn't imagine life without my precious daughter.

You could say I'm an oldie from days gone by.
I found out about OW/coming OC 8+ years ago.
H and I stayed together just as you and your H have.
We have custody of OC and have had NC from OW for the past 3 & a half years.
This little girl is every bit my daughter as your daughter is every bit your husband's.
DNA may determine eye color, hair color, etc... but it does not determine LOVE.
I would die for my daughter. Just as I would die for my son or this new baby growing within me.
I fully understand your meaning about not imagining your life without your daughter. I cannot imagine my life without my Lil Bit.

I applaud your continued strength in this situation. Lord knows that it can get overwhelming at times. I remember feeling that it would never end, that I would never get to a place that I didn't think about it all the time. But that time did come for me.

I'll be coming by more often to try to lend some of what I have experienced these past few years...
so, PLEASE keep posting so I can get to know you better.

Staci

Thank you Staci. And congrats on your wonderful news!

Writer,

I wanted to ask you how you and your H were planning to deal with the time when the OC will be the only child at home. It seems like you two will be tied down with a very small child when you would otherwise be enjoying a time with no children and relative youth.

I'm just asking because I think your H could grow to resent that. Also have you really only been NC since September of this year or is that a typo? That is a super short period to claim recovery.

Writer, I don't really read here because I have never been in this sitch. But I just wanted to say I applaud you and your husband. You have BOTH been through so much, and you remain in love with each other, committed to your family, and seemingly unfettered with the bitterness that it would be so easy to have. I really think it's inspiring. And I applaud your H for seeing a child as a child and not levereage or a source of anger. Your story really is amazing. I think it can help a lot of people.

Thanks lurioosi. I needed that this morning. I'm actually contemplating writing a memoir about my experiences with A from three different perspectives - as an OC, as a BS, and as a FWW. It's on hold for now until I finish the novel that I'm working on, but it is something I would like to do someday.

6yearsleft: I've given a lot of thought to what it will be like when it is just me, my H, and the baby. Of course, our 15-year-old son has very bad ADHD and other problems, so I don't see him leaving home anytime soon, though being able to live independently is a goal that we have for him at some point. My H and I have talked about this a lot, and honestly, he seems to feel no resentment over the matter at all. I guess you would have to know my H to fully understand this. He loves kids. He loves them so much that he's going back to school to become a teacher. And he truly loves our daughter, and she is OUR daughter, in every way except for the DNA. He's truly wrapped around her adorable little pinky. Plus, she's such an easy-going kid that having her around doesn't really feel like being tied-down. And, she has lots of older siblings (two of them are adults) who love to take her places and do things with her.

As far as the NC goes, yes, it has only been 2 months. Prior to that time, the only contact with OM was sending him email updates every time she had a doctor's appointment. I haven't actually seen the OM since I graduated from my MFA program a year and a half ago. He's never seen the baby. He was kind of on the fence about being a part of her life, so until Sept., I was sending the updates - about once every two months. He finally decided that it simply wasn't feasible for him to remain a part of her life, since he lives 3000 miles away, so we all agreed that NC would be in everyone's best interest.

Hi Writer,

I take it from the contact that your H knew and approved of the contact. Probably would have been even better if he had sent the messages. Keep an eye on the resentment thing.

I'm sorry to hear about the ADHD. All of my kids are healthy and progressing but as a father (and grandfather) I can imagine how hard it is to see them struggle.

If I had it to do over again, I would have let my H handle all contact. He did know about it. I only found MB in August, and before that, it really didn't occur to me that I could have NC when there was an OC involved. Live and learn.

My older son has struggled a lot, right from the very beginning. The hardest part is, he is actually very bright. His behavior just gets in the way a lot. We've tried many different meds, and they have their good and bad points. We're going to a new psychologist next month, so I am hopeful. We're going to have him reassessed, because his school counselor thinks there might be more going on than just the ADHD, which I have long suspected.

Hi writer,

I would like to applaude your husband also after hearing your story it gives me strength and hope because i love kids also and i did not know how i would be able to handle my situation, i knew that i would never do anything to hurt the well being of the OC in my situation but i have questioned the ability to love it as i do my own, or i fear that I might subconciously treat it unfairly. I was curious to know do your friends and family know that the OC is not your husbands biological child and how has the worked out? At first my WW and I talked about raising OC as our own and not telling anyone about the situation and i think about when people come up and talk about OC and say "he looks just like you or he has your eyes" the thought really irritates me and i don't know if i could keep a straight face and i would want to say no he doesn't. Again i just want to say tell your husband thank you because it makes me feel like it is ok to try to work this out because i know most men would leave when they found out about the A let alone try to stick it out when there is another mans baby in the situaton

I think you are right in that most men would leave. I am very fortunate that my H did not. He really is an extraordinary man.

Both of our families know the truth about our OC's biological father. So do most of our close friends. There are many casual friends and acquaintances that do not know, of course. It's not like every time we meet someone, we introduce the baby as our OC. I'm sure, as she gets older, there will be a lot of new people who come into our lives who will not know, because the subject just doesn't come up anymore, and there really isn't a need to bring it up. Our families knew about my A, and they also knew about my H's vasectomy, so not telling them really wasn't an option.

We have gotten a few comments from strangers about how our OC looks just like our older son (who could be my H's clone) or about how she has my H's eyes (my H and the baby have blue eyes and I have brown). It doesn't seem to bother my H. He doesn't seem to feel it necessary to point out to everyone that she couldn't possibly look like him, since she isn't his biological child.

These issues have a way of seeming less important as time goes on. Right now, this is all very new to you, so it's understandable that you are grappling with these questions. I know that not every man can accept a child as his own under these circumstances, but my H has done a remarkable job of it.

I think everyone knows about my vasectomy but no one knows about her A and i know that it would add that much more stress to our situation because our relationship has never really had much support many people have thought that we should not be together and we have proven them wrong this far although it has not been easy. I know that with myself trying to find the strength to get through this, having those which i consider close to me telling me "i told you so" or that i should leave is not going to help any because it would make me feel like they are right or that it is ok to leave.

Hi Writer,

I didn't want to thread jack over on the other thread but I did have a question for you. You mentioned that your H had a 10 year EA starting as soon as you go married and that you knew about this situation. I was wondering why you were willing to have so many children given the condition of your marriage.

Oh just one little thought for NNEDOFHELP. It is ok for you to terminate your marriage if the OC or the A is a deal breaker for you. It is absolutely wrong and immoral for you to do anything that will hurt the OC (with the exception of leaving since I don't think you have a positive obligation to a child conceived under these circumstances).

Let me clarify. My older 3 kids are mine from a previous (very bad) relationship. When I married my H, they were very young - 4 1/2, 2 1/2, and 18 mos. Their bio dad has not been in the picture for a very long time (violent, arrested for assault with a deadly weapon, threatening suicide). My H is really the only father they have ever known and they all consider him to be their dad. When my H and I got married, I was 3 months pregnant with his baby. We were in engaged before I got pregnant and had already set the wedding date, so that isn't why we got married. We actually only have one bio child together - our 15 y/o DS. The reason I didn't walk when I found out about my H's attachment to his ex-girlfriend 1 week after our wedding was because I was pregnant and couldn't even imagine raising 4 very young children by myself. I'm pretty sure that, had there been no COM's involved and I had found out about the ex-girlfriend as soon as I did after the wedding, that I would have left. The fact that our M never really had a solid foundation and got off to such a rocky start in the first place has definitely complicated matters. We don't really have that happier time to go back to. It has been one of the most difficult aspects of trying to navigate this road to R.

And, yes, if NNEDOFHELP doesn't feel as though he can raise the OC or R his M because of his WW's A, then I agree that he has every right to walk away. That's a personal decision, and one that only he can make.

Wow Writer,

You H has committed himself to raising 4 children which are not his, one conceived during an A. I would not do that and I really love children, I seriously considered adopting my grandchild to raise as a single parent at 42.

Anyway, your H is doing a herculean thing for you and your children.

6yearsleft: Agreed.

Okay, so I just about hurled up my breakfast. When we went NC with OM several months ago, he agreed to send a letter for the OC that my H and I could give her when she is old enough to know about the situation. He never sent the letter, so I asked my H to contact OM and request it again. My H emailed him with the request.

Now, just a few minutes ago, OM sent a response email saying that the letter would be in the mail in a few days. Problem is, he sent the email to my H and ME. UGH! What part of please don't ever contact me again is he having a hard time with??? There was a reason my H sent the email and asked OM to reply to him and not to me.

I know, I should have blocked his email on my account. He'd never tried to contact me before since sending the NC letter, so it didn't seem like a huge priority. My mistake there.

Your BH break's NC at your request for a letter that is pointless.

What do you think the OM can have to say?

I violated a marriage.

I use W1 to get laid because I was away from home for a short period of time and I was horny.

I was only interested in getting laid, knew I would be moving far away and didn't care to use protection because if W1 got knocked up I would be long gone.

I used W1.

I have no morals because I f'd up another's marriage, left you out of my life, and if the OMW found out: f'd up my own marriage, or I was so lucky that W1 or her BH were so foolish to not expose me so I got away with murder.

While getting away with murder I got away with not having to pay the cost to raise an OC or put in the time to be a dad to OC. Though I got laid many times for free by charming the pants off of W1.

Honestly no need for a letter you only have to tell your OC that you cheated on her dad. You and the OM did not care enough to use protection to prevent an OC that would never get to be raised in a family with both of her bio parents.

All you needed was contact info for the OM and his family to give OC when OC is old enough to understand and wants to contact OM.

You had been in contact during and after the pregnancy with the OM. Your behavior shows that you had the contact info, and the time to of gotten it. No need to break NC.

Writer1

You maybe a great wife now.

Though you can't resist the drama.

What drama?

You can not maintain NC with the OM. Using your BH to contact the OM is just you being fogged up wayward mentality. You say you want the OM to leave you alone. But look for ways to justify breaking NC.

Then complain that the OM is breaking NC.

I think it was wise of the OM to CC you. This way he knows both you and the BH are in the loop. OM can't be accused of keeping secrets form either one of you.

He is making the effort to appear acting above board.

OM got to play you phyiscally and your BH financially and emotionally. Then get his life back all normal. He still has his family intact. You and BH got an OC.

I hope you make this marriage wortj it for your BH. To keep you he has to raise the OC.

Well, I was hoping more along the lines of info such as names/birth dates/ages of children (OC's sisters), aunts, uncles, grandparents. Medical info. Genealogy. A little family history. Some ancestry information.

I am also an OC, and I don't even know my own nationality on my father's side of the family. That's stuff I would have liked to have known.

And actually, I don't have much contact info for OM either. I only know his email address. I don't know his home address or phone number. I don't have contact info for his daughters (OM is D).

And yes, I did have time to get the info from OM before NC was established. I just didn't have cooperation. I asked him for his blood type when I was pregnant because I am Rh negative and there could have been blood type compatibility problems with the baby if he were Rh positive. I still don't know his blood type, and OC is 13 months old. I had to get a series of shots before and after my pregnancy because I didn't know his blood type. It's not like I haven't been asking for all of this stuff for a very long time. I've just never gotten it.

By the way, OM's M is not intact. He left his wife and daughters 3 weeks after our A began and never looked back. He has been divorced for almost 2 years and is now living with/engaged to someone else.

And no, I don't like the drama. I honestly just wanted the info for my DD. I want to be able to answer her questions honestly and accurately. I have been trying for a very long time to get this info. As an OC, I know how important this information will be for her in the future. I want her to have what I didn't have from my biological father - answers to the most basic questions about herself.

I don't know my dad's blood type...I never even thought of asking.

I cannot ask my bio dad any of it, nor would I prolly.

IMO you are making a mountain out of a molehill...

And I love the socks offa you...but I really and truly think this is not that big in the grand scheme of things.

Food, clothing, shelter, LOVE...that's what a child needs right now. Medical stuff...pah! You cross that bridge if you HAVE to come to it.

Dealan-de: All I know is that, while I was growing up, I had a lot of questions about who I was and where I came from, and very few answers. Maybe it does have something to do with the fact that it was just me and my mom and I didn't have a very stable family life. But I wondered about it a lot, and think those unanswered questions shaped the person I became. Maybe, my DD won't have those issues, because she will have a mom and a dad and brothers/sisters who love her. I don't know what her questions will be. I just want to have answers if she does want to know.

And, since the only contact info I have for OM is an email address (and those are pretty transitory) getting in touch with him after many years of NC might be pretty difficult. When my ODD decided she wanted to meet her bio dad (the boys didn't really care) it took years for her to finally find him. Actually, she never did find him, he found her. He'd been living outside the country, so was extremely difficult to track down. I saw what she went through and I was hoping to avoid that for my OC if possible.

And, it's not like I'm focusing all of my energy on getting in contact with OM and trying to pry this info from his cold/dead hands. It's really taking up a very small portion of my time and attention. Yes, I would like the info, but I'm not going to obsess over it.

Will you be changing your signature NC information from 9/1/09 to say 11/13/09?

armymama: No.

"6yearsleft: Wow. I have no idea where you might have gotten the impression that I would be proud of causing my H pain. Nothing could be further from the truth. If I could take back any of the pain that I caused my H, I would do so in a heartbeat, but I cannot."

I am against abortion. Not against your decision to keep the OC. Though with you willing to take some things back I will ask. Would you if you could undo the pregnancy. Turn back the clock. Used protection.

Would you?

Would your BH?

Well, if I could turn back the clock and undo things, I wouldn't just use protection, I would undo the entire affair.

That being said, it isn't a question with one easy or right answer. Yes, I would definitely have not had an A if I had it to do over again. However, I really can't imagine my life without our baby. My H has said the same thing. I wouldn't wish her out of our lives for anything.

It seems like a contradiction, I know. But, I think we have just reached the point where we are able to separate her from the A. She is just our baby. We love her and appreciate her and celebrate her existence in her own right, as a separate and distinct individual. When we look at her now, we don't see how she got here. We just see this little person who is a part of our family.

"That being said, it isn't a question with one easy or right answer."

There is no right answer. Things can not be undone. The only anwser is the one that you and your family can live with.

Has your BH gone to the internet for help on the PA?

The Road: What do you mean has my H gone to the internet for help? What kind of help?

The way you are dealing with being a WW and OC. Your BH can be doing or could of done what you are doing on MB.

My H is on MB too, he just doesn't post much. He's read a lot of the site though. He isn't big on discussion forums, but he did post a few times before the crash. He registered again, but I don't think he's posted anything since the site went down.

Greetings Writer1,I have a few questions for you. I do not ask these with the intintion of angering you, but they may.
Why?

If this child is your husbands in every way except for conception, then why would she need or want such info? She already has sisters, aint's, uncles, grandparents, and ancestory information. It is highly doubtfull the medical records of your OC's genetic donor will ever be needed.

So why stay in contact with you Adoultry partner to try and secure these things?

Are you doing it for your child, or are you projecting your own needs from your childhood onto you child?

You where conseived by a man othere then your moms husband, while she was married, or vice-versa? In otherwords, you are the product of an affair?

Is this correct?


Me neither.

Why?

So? Why do you need OM's bloodtype?

Small price to pay to keep NC in place after an affair.

Sounds like a real winner.
Think about this, do you really want this POS to have any influence on your child?


Then stop creating it unnecassaraly

The only answer you really need to provide is that you had an adoulterouse affair with a man wile married to her Dad, she was a product of that affair, and that her Dad loved you and her so much that he decided to stay married to you and raise her as his own. Then you need to appoligise to her for your affair, explain that it was wrong, and that you are sorry to her and your husband. And beg her to please not repeat the cycle that your mother started, and you continued.

Then, if she wants it, give her a name.

Funny, I never had to ask my dad for basic questions about my self. I just figured what little I needed to know out on my own.

Ding, Ding, Ding

We have a winner!!!

You are projecting YOUR wants onto your child.

Stop doing that.
Your OC\DD will be lucky enough to have a Dad, and a better one than you scummy OM could ever be.




I say these things, and ask these questions as a man who is raising an OC as my own, and whos FWW is also an OC.

Gack1: I'll try to answer your questions, though the formatting seems a little messed up and I'm having trouble discerning the questions from the quotes.

I want the letter for my OC precisely because I do not intend to stay in contact with the OM and I do not really know what she will want to know and what she will not. The letter will provide her with answers if she does have questions without my having to contact OM later. Since all of my COM's know about the A and the OM, my H and I are planning on telling OC when she is old enough to understand. This will probably be long before she turns 18, since I don't want her to accidentally discover the truth in a slipped bit of conversation. I wouldn't be comfortable with OC contacting OM directly though until she is an adult, so the letter would be a way for her to get answers without having to break NC with OM. If she doesn't want to know or doesn't have any questions, then she doesn't have to read the letter. I just want the info available for her if she wants it. If she wants to find OM after she turns 18, then that is entirely up to her.

Yes, I am an OC. No, my mother wasn't married. My father was. My mother was the OW. My mother never married and never had any more children.

I have 3 older kids from a previous relationship that my H also raised from a very young age. My DD (now 18) was very curious about her bio-dad, whom she hadn't seen since she was 3. She decided to search for him and meet him. The boys eventually met him too, though they weren't nearly as interested. It took her over two years to finally locate him. She had a lot of questions that I didn't have the answers to.

So, I am going off of my own experience, and the experience of my older kids as well. My OC may be curious and she may not. I just want the info available to her if she wants it. This is her life and I believe she has a right to know everything about herself if she so desires. Others may have a different opinion. To each his own.

Re read it, then edit your post accordingly.

It posted before I was done with it for some reason, so I had to finish editing it after it posted.

I think I answered many of these questions the first time, but for the ones I missed.

Medical Info: When was the last time you went to the doctor and didn't have to fill out a form detailing illnesses/conditions that run in your family? Because I've had to do this every time I see a new doctor. I've only been able to answer for my mom's side of the family, so I've always had to give my doctors incomplete information. I think it would be nice if my OC could have all of the info. Even when children are adopted I think they try to make it a high priority to include as much of a medical history for the biological parents as possible. I don't see how anyone could argue that this isn't important.

Nationality: I've always been curious. Don't know why, I just have. I guess everyone's different, but it's something I've always wanted to know.

Blood type: I don't need it now, but the doctor asked for it early in my pregnancy because I was Rh negative, so I said I would try to find out. OM said he would get me the info, but never did. So, I got the shots, as a precaution.

Were you an OC? You say your FWW was, but you don't mention what your relationship was with your father. You say you never asked your dad about basic questions about yourself and that you just figured out what you needed to do on your own. That's easy to do when you grow up knowing your father. I pretty much did the same thing with my mom. I knew things about her because she raised me. However, I knew almost nothing about my father. I've never even had a conversation with him alone. How exactly would I figure out anything about him?

We can argue this all we want. There is no one right answer. I've gotten both ends of the spectrum on here. There are people like you who don't think my OC needs any info at all about the OM. There are people who think she should know OM and his daughters and that I should fight for CS, get a DNA test, etc. There are people everywhere in between. What it really boils down to is what me and my DH are comfortable doing. We have discussed the situation at length, and all of the decisions that we have come to have been made together. My H thinks it's important for her to have access to this info if she wants it and so do I. You and your FWW may have made different decisions. That's fine. Whatever works for you. But that doesn't make your way right and my way wrong. They are just different.

>I think it would be ****nice**** if my OC could have all of the info.

In this situation, we don't always get what we deem would be nice.

Period.

Infact, a lot of the time we get the opposite.

I've got a whole lot more of "nice" than most in my situation.

You do, too, imo.

Thank God.

Dealan-de: I'm going to get what I can get. OM said he would send the info in the mail, so we'll wait and see.

I will never stop being thankful for what I do have.

"My DD (now 18) was very curious about her bio-dad, whom she hadn't seen since she was 3. She decided to search for him and meet him. The boys eventually met him too, though they weren't nearly as interested. It took her over two years to finally locate him."

So what has this contact with the bio dad led to with your DD and DS's?

The Road: Nothing good, I'm afraid. My DD definitely regrets the decision to search for him now. None of them really want anything to do with him. He hasn't changed, which doesn't surprise me. Of course, I warned them about all of this when my DD decided to start looking, but at this point, they are old enough to make their own decisions.

>I will never stop being thankful for what I do have.

GOOD!

THAT is a very important thing.

(((Writer)))

It still doesn't sit well with me that your OM's wife and children don't know that he fathered another child. Those kids are half-sibs.
You seem more interested in maintaining contact with OM than with OM's children, who are blood relatives of your OC.
But it seems as if you are being blackmailed into silence.

Ima,

As a mother to COM who have OC siblings, it is the PARENT'S choice to tell the kids, not Writer's.

Writer doesn't have a dog in that particular race.

That the xBW does not know about OC is reprehensible, but it's the POSMM's onus, not Writer's.

If someone told MY kids about OCs besides me or my husband there would be holy h-e-double-hockey-sticks to pay - and we are talking EONS of h-e-double-hockey-sticks!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT is pert near unforgivable.

When the kids are adults, different story. But these are CHILDREN.

I'm sorry Ima but it is completely inappropriate and WRONG for the xOW to tell the BXW and the COM about the OC. In this sit especially since writer and her H have chosen to raise OC as their own daughter. OC's sibs are the ones she is being raised with. xMM's COM may find out later in life but it is their FATHER's responsibility to tell or not.

I don't think it is my responsibility to tell xOM's BXW or kids about the baby. Do I think he should have told them? Yes. But, that's his business, and if my OC chooses to look for her half-sisters someday and they find out that way, then he's the one who is going to have to deal with the repercussions of having lied to his children for all those years.

I'm just really trying to focus on my family and on putting our lives back together. Our OC is loved very much by both of her parents, her siblings, her grandparents, etc. That is a whole lot more than my mother was ever able to give me, and I'm hoping that it will be enough for her. When the time comes, my H and I will tell her the truth together, but that is still many years in the future. Right now, she has everything she needs.

OK.
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
IMO, we on MB are all about telling the OM's W about the A if the OM doesn't own up to it. That's a consequence of his actions.
Well, that baby is another consequence of his actions. As a FBW, I feel I should have the right to know if there is an OC, even if my XWH didn't tell me. I guess you could argue that it would then be up to the BxW to decide if she wanted to tell her children about their half-sib.
I think you're letting the OM off the hook, just to keep the peace.
But I can see we won't agree on this one since we all are coming from different sides of the scene. I'm all about empowering the betrayed spouse to make decisions, not deciding for her, to spare her feelings.

The xBW DOES know about the adultry...just not about the OC.

She's already d'd the POSxMM.

Writer - you're doing the best things you can for YOUR family, imo.

Thanks Dealan-de. I think so too.

OM's XBW knew about the A. A started in July 07, they D'd in Feb. 08 and OC was born in Sept. 08. OM is now living with/engaged to someone else. His new fiance also doesn't know about the OC. Her first M ended because of an A and OM knew if he told her about his A, she wouldn't want to marry him. Do I feel bad for her because she doesn't know what she's getting herself into? Yes. But, OM is staying out of OC's life so no one will have to find out what he has done, and that benefits my family, so I'm letting it go. It may seem like blackmail, but I don't think it is. He's never made any threats that he would make things difficult for us if I told anyone in his family. It just seems logical to me that he wouldn't have much of a reason to stay out of OC's life if his family knew about her. Is he getting off the hook? I don't think so. He has to live with his own conscience and with the fear that his secret may eventually get out and completely destroy the deceptive, insulated little world that he is creating for himself. That's a terrible burden to shoulder, IMO.

You obviously have not personally dealt with the blow of knowing your H had a baby with the OW. This is something I would NOT want to know if it:

A. Was moot point for me personally cuz I divorced him
B. Was not going to affect my financial support from him
C. He has no legal or physical right to the child because the OWH is raising the child as his own.

I can tell you Ima that the OC sit is far worse than the A itself. KNOWING your H gave his seed to another woman is excruciating.

FF-
Actually it is exactly why I feel so strongly about this.
I know my H does not have a vasectomy and that he had unprotected sex with the OW. For months, nay, almost a year, after the A was over, I constantly worried about the phone call that there was an OC.
And YES, YES, YES. If H and I divorce and I find out later that there was an OC, I will think that it was COMPLETELY UNFAIR to leave me out of the equation.
My children would be blood relatives of that OC and I would like to be the one to decide if/when they are told. NOT the people raising the OC.
So, take it from the side of someone who was waiting for the shoe to drop, I would feel incredibly disrespected.
Let's look at it this way:
Let's say my H was writer's OM. Let's say he impregnated her and abandoned her, then divorced me. Then he told writer that she couldn't tell me because if she did, he would make a stink.
That OC is a TICKING TIMEBOMB to my children's perception of reality. Someday, that OC holds all the cards as to whether to rock their world.
You guys who are raising OCs should be commended, yes. But if you don't let the BxW know that HER children will one day (most likely) be faced with the reality that they have a half-sib, you have not done the heavy lifting, IMO.
Again, that's my opinion. You are certainly entitled to yours. I just wanted you to see that not all BxW's might see it the way you do.

The way I see it, that's one of the problems with this particular part of the forum. It's a VERY homogeneous group of people here. Almost every one either is a BS facing an OC or a WS with an OC. But you all KNOW about the OC.
The rest of us BS's on the regular threads live in fear that there is an OC out there, but may never know until our kids get a call in their teenage years (which, to me, totally sux).
But you guys can reinforce each other because you're not getting the feedback of those of us who don't know if we have an OC in the equation.
The whole reason I read here is because I still live in fear that there is an OC. My FWH and the OW went NC so what do I know? To me, it seems like the OW, even if she reforms, as writer has, still holds all the cards and the power in the relationship.
Can't you see what I mean?

>I will think that it was COMPLETELY UNFAIR

What about this situation is fair?

There is NO fair in this.

Once the deed is done, *fair* is not part of the equation...there is only damage control.

Ima, if I as the BW was still M'd...YES I would want to know but NOT be told by the OW. Do you see where we are coming from here? the OW has NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER TO CONTACT ME OR MY COM!!!!!!!! I do not want to hear from her. It is the FWH or the WXH's job to tell the BW, not the OW!!!!

Well, FF, if you were to use that logic, why do we encourage the BH's and BW's to tell the OP's betrayed spouse that there was an affair at all? After all, it should be the OP's responsibility, right? NO. OPs have no morals. OPs have no scruples.
If my H's OW was married, and the OW and her husband were raising my children's half-sib, I feel, as a mother, that I have the right to know, so that *I* can break it to the children, not the POS-WH or the OW's family.
Again, I'm going to come back to where I, as a BW, feel the OW still holds all the cards if she's raising my children's half-sib and not letting me know that SOMEDAY my children's phone is going to ring.
I'm not saying that, in this case, writer should tell the BxW. Maybe writer's H should. But I think this poor woman is walking around, raising her children, not knowing that five, ten, twenty years down the road, she's going to get slapped with another consequence of her then-H's affair.
I understand your desire to not involve the OW and the WH. But doesn't the BxW in writer's situation deserve to know? Her POS-WxH isn't going to tell her. And ***writer*** was part and parcel to this affair and child, so I feel there is some responsibility there.
I guess we're too far apart on this to see it through each other's eyes. Sorry.

On another thread in the recovery forum, there's a discussion about an apology letter from the OW to the BW. To me, honestly owning up to the fact that two years ago, I was sleeping with your husband and we created a half-sibling to your children as a result, is the apology I deserve. Don't care how sorry you are. I just want the facts.

Ima: I actually can see both sides to this. However, I obviously can't go both ways. I had to make decision. I chose what I thought was best for my family.

Understood, writer.
And ladies, I agree with you on 99% of your posts, so this is that one out of 100 where our different backgrounds gives us a different perspective.
(Still cross my fingers every day and hope that little tramp OW in my life didn't get knocked up!)

You know I find that statement untrue and unfair. It takes a lot of courage for people in our situations to even post on MB. Why? Because our situtation seems to scare people so badly that we get judged pretty harshly.

We get posters like JL, The Road, Pep, Nerlycrzy and others that are GREAT at giving advice in these situations and they have not experienced in dealing with an OC.

>judged

No doubt.

And you know what?

I was ALONE in the world till I found MB.

A

L

O

N

E


Nearly everyone knows about infidelity...but really...how many people do you know IRL that are open about an OC?

I knew NO ONE.

I'm so, so, so sorry to TJ Writer.

Rant off.

You guys must have missed the part where I said I had a lot of respect for the strength it takes to do what you're doing. I'm not judging anyone. Just sharing how ***I*** would feel if I found out there was an OC and no one told me.
I understand everyone has reasons for keeping the secret, and some are certainly better than others.
In NO WAY was I saying raising an OC was wrong. It's an incredible sign of love and strength. I know I couldn't do it.
THAT is why I'm so worried about a possible OC out there for me...
Was not my intention to make you feel judged though...

Ok
If that is the case, and you are only doing this for you OC and your BS is 100% ok with it, then fair enough.
But set a time limit on gathering this information, once the time limit passes; stop trying to retrive any info from POSOM and go to complete N.C. for life.

I have only seen a few doctors in my adult life and I just leave these areas blank. I could not tell you, or a doctor what either of my parents blood type is (I don't even know my own off the top of my head) or any family illneses other than both my parents had cancer.

The probability of requireng this information in order to properly diagnose and/or treat an illness is so remote that it does not justify breaking NC untill such a situation arises.

If I came home and my wife told me she wanted to contact OM to get his medical records just in case OC had to have it one day. Well, lets just say I would not be Ok with that.

Negative, I was raised by both my Biological parents untill there divorce when I was 18. However, at that time I did find out that my Dad had an OC that was less than a year younger than me. I do not, nor hav I ever had any desire to know anything about this Half-Brother, or meet him. He is an unimportant footnote in my life.


Yes
She is the product of her mothers affair, and was raised by her mother and her Non-BIO father.

She has repeated the cycle her mother started

Up untill her preganancy with OC she had no interest in knowing anyting about her genetic donor. She tried to claim interest in wanting to know about this human during her pregnancy, but this was just a lie to try and justify continuing contact with OM "For the Baby". As her fog cleared, she returned to having no interest in finding out about this human.



My father never tought me anything about myself. He tought me how to drive, how to use a chainsaw, how to weld, and things like that. He did not teach me who I am.


I was not sugesting you could. I was sugesting you don't need him to know who you are.

Gack1: Like I said, everyone is different. I got a chance to meet my half-sister when I was 24. Up until that point, I never had a sibling that I knew. It meant a great deal to me to meet her. I have two half-brothers whom I still haven't met. They don't even know I exist. This bothered me a great deal when I was younger, not so much now. I very much wanted to get to know my father when I was younger. I'm kind of over that now too. But it took a long time for me to get to this place, and for many years, I felt as though there was something missing in my life. My kids have expressed a desire to meet my father, their grandfather. They probably won't ever get that chance. I don't even have any pictures of him to show them. They've asked a few questions, but I really can't answer them.

Oh, and medical information can be very important in the diagnosis of many diseases. I used to be a nurse, so I do have a background in the medical field.

I did not say it could not be, I said it was rare that it was a requerment.

For example, name 10 common diseases that are impossable to diagnose with out the fathers medical information.

Risk verses reward
For me, the risk of contacting OM is not worth the small posability of actually requiring the information later.

Besides, I collected enough information on OM during the A that I am confident I could locate him or his parents in a matter of hours or minutes should a life and death situation for OC that required any medical history arise.

But as you said, to each there own.

I wish I had that kind of time, but I have a sick baby, a novel to finish writing, and a pretty dirty house.

Can we just agree to disagree and move on?

Thats why I said common, as in off the top of your head.

See what I mean

Sure

Gack: Most days, I'm doing good to just remember the names of all of my kids off the top of my head. I know it's a bad a day when I start calling one of them by the dog's name.

"That the xBW does not know about OC is reprehensible, but it's the POSMM's onus"

I disagree. It has been stated many times on MB threads that the OMW deserves to know the truth.

It's reprehensible that W1 and her BH do not expose OMW.

Again, the OMW knew about the A. By the time I got pregnant with our OC, their D was only 1 month away from being final. They hadn't been living together for 6 months.

And I thought exposure was a tool for ending A's. Our A is over, so how does exposure apply in this case? OM has been D'd for almost 2 years and is engaged to someone else now. I don't think the typical Harley definition of exposure is applicable here.

My husband was raised as single child with the knowledge that there was another child who was 6 years older than him from a previous marriage of his father's. Imagine yourself in his shoes at 40 years old recieving a packet of family mementos from your deceased father's brother. In that packet you discover info on your sister and her mom, plus lots of info on your parents. Imagine then discovering info that looks like your sister is not as old as they led you to believe, your whole life. Your half sister who was never in your life. Imagine being able to track down sister and have a few brief conversations confirming your suspicions. She too was misled and never knew the truth. I say imagine because it wasn't me but it did happen to my husband. His half sister was from his fathers first marriage, both children were less than 9 months apart. He's the OC, his mom the OW, and his dad was an XWH. The man is dead now, no one left to explain what really happened and his mom just won't admit to anything. But his deceased father left behind two broken families and a legacy of WS behaviour.

My WH has been unfaithful the whole time we've been married with multiple women, all admittedly unprotected sex. We have 4 bio and 1 shared from a previous relatonship. 15 years of unprotected sex with multiple women can mean there are possibly many OC's out there.

Personally I would want to know.

I get it that you will tell the OC the truth. That's respectable and I commend that! But I strongly feel that his now exwife needs to know as well.

> I'm doing good to just remember the names of all of my kids off the top of my head

That's no lie. Sometimes I have to run down the list till I hit the right name for the kid standing in front of me.

They think it's hi-lar-i-ous.

Turkeys.

Lying by commision.

Lying by omission.

Either way it is still lying.

The OMW still deserves to know the whole truth why her marriage went down.

Nothings helps healing as knowing what really happened.

Still protecting the OM.

Road: Tell it to the OM. I told him countless times that he needed to tell his ex-wife and kids about the OC. He refused.

"Road: Tell it to the OM."

I'm not telling the OM nothing. Or should you.

You need the OM to hold your hand while you expose him to his XBW?

Or did you need the OM's approval to expose?

The way he refused to do to the right thing so did you refuse also.

It has been suggested and recommended on MB that the OW should apologize to the BW.

Did you?

If you did, why did you not tell her about the OC?

I've always thought that exposure was a tool used by the BS to end the A. OM's XBW already knows about the A, and it has already ended. How would exposure apply in this case? What would be the point?

Road, have you been following GloveOil's thread over in Recovery? His BW just received an apology letter from the OW. There doesn't seem to be any consensus at all that these letters are a good idea or that they help the BS recover. GloveOil's BW is on the forum now, you could ask her yourself. It seemed, from what I was reading on GO's thread, that the vast majority of posters did not think it was a good idea to send these kinds of letters.

W1
I have read here for many years before I started posting. In that time it has been held that was not necessary that the BH exposed or the OW exposed herself. Just that it was necessary for one of them to expose the BW.

Whether the BW called and confronted the OW or the OW called.
The OW was to be considerate of the BW, apologize for being the 3rd perosn in the marriage, provide the truth to the BW.

To answer the BW questions truthfully, to tell the BW that you understand that this news has unsettled BW and that is she needed questions answered that the BW could call OW in the future to ask, that OW would gladly answer them.

Exposure is just not a tool to end affairs. It is a tool to bring the truth to all the parties involved. It is extremely difficult to get closure and heal without the truth.

You harmed this BW but have done nothing to help her.

After all you helped yourself to her husband.

You harmed your BH and are trying to help him heal. Your BH was not the only one you hurt.

I hope your OC breaks the cycle that you have placed her in. I read to many times where the WS was an OC themselves. Just the way their parents where a WS and had a OC (them), they now do the same as an adult themselves.

You have created an OC. Unfortunately OC always feel something is missing because of not growing up with there bio parents in one family. Even when the OC has a good man willing to be the OC dad, and siblings that accept her.

I guess there is always the feeling of what if I was rasied by bio parents, what if I had full siblings.

Just as an affair can not be undone these feelings remain because they can never be answered for or by the OC.

It's hard to get kids to follow do as I say not as I do.

You have your work cut out for you. For the OC as well as the COM. When a marriage gets hard, have an affair. Don't use protection, it's ok to stick your BS with raising someone else's child. It's OK to be used by the OP. It's OK to date and sleep those with low morals, as was your OM.

I hope you break the cycle of affairs and OC's in your family.

So do I.

This is so true.

Teach your OC and your other children the values and morals they will need to break this horrable cycle.

Okay, I will jump into this with my opinion and what I think is pertinent TO ME

My FWH exposed his A and OC to me. I don't EVER want to be C'ed by the OW for ANY reason. What happens in her life and to HER family is of no consequence to ME or to MY family. Blood is not thicker than water, and family is not made by genetics. Many here will disagree with me. My COM do not have a missing sibling in the OC. The OC is NOT a member of our family.

Writer's xMM's xBS is D'ed, she was aware of the A. Exposure is about ending the A. Now if she came to Writer and wanted to have questions answered to help her know the truth, then Writer should try to comply. But Writer already damaged her life, she is fully aware of it and is moving on with her life. Will knowledge of OC help her? It wouldn't help me, just reinforce what a POS he was, and make me thankful that I already have the D (so that OC can't come along and harm COM any further) and the CS in place so that I can still provide for COM. OC is now XH's problem. Good bye and good riddance. Why cause her further trauma? let her move on with her life and heal. Knowing the OC exists will just cause the D'ed BS to be looking over her shoulder for the next 20 years, wondering when OW and OC are going to come knocking on her door, causing more trouble to her family once again.
FTS

fled
"I don't EVER want to be C'ed by the OW for ANY reason."

Some BS's do some don't. Some want an apology some don't.

"What happens in her life and to HER family is of no consequence to ME or to MY family."

What happens wneh the OC come's looking for their dad 18 years from now?

Your WH has left a land mine that may be stept on someday.

"family is not made by genetics. Many here will disagree with me."

Then why do OC and adopted kids look for their bio parents?

"My COM do not have a missing sibling in the OC. The OC is NOT a member of our family."

The OC is not a full sibling, but half, there will always be a bio connection.

Why would a step sibling hate a step sibling?

Both are innocent.

As I said before, there are as many opinions on this matter as there are people on this forum. It would be impossible to please everyone. I can only do what I feel is right and what I think is best for my family. That's all any of us can do.

OM's XBW has moved on with her life. I think the best thing I can do for her is to stay out of it. An apology wouldn't change the fact that I destroyed her family. Nothing can change that. That is a guilt I will have to live with for the rest of my life. I think about her and her kids everyday and I truly hope they are happy, but I'm pretty sure that getting a letter from me apologizing about the A and telling them about the OC wouldn't accomplish that. It may seem that I am keeping quiet about the OC for selfish reasons, but I am not. I am trying to find the best solution to a situation that really has no good solution.

I hope that I can break this cycle too. I will do everything in my power. My A was wrong. I am doing everything I can to make my kids understand that. My mother never once admitted to me that she was wrong for sleeping with a married man and carrying on a 12-year A with him. We've never really talked about it. I don't know to this day if she feels any remorse for what she did. I don't want my kids to wonder if what I did was okay or not. I know it wasn't right. They know it wasn't right. My OC will know it wasn't right, when she's old enough to understand.

However, I refuse to wallow in the depths of self-loathing and self-hatred for the rest of my life. Yes, I made some very terrible mistakes. I will have to live with the consequences of those mistakes for the rest of my life. But the A is only a small part of who I am. I am not perfect and I am not proud of some of the things I have done in my life, but I have many good qualities and many good things to offer the world as well. I'm choosing to move forward and focus on those things now. I owe that to my BH, my COM's, my OC, and myself.

>I am trying to find the best solution to a situation that really has no good solution.

It is YOUR kobayashi maru test - you must make the choice that has the least nuclear fallout for everyone involved.

Can you believe I actually had to go and look that up? I've never seen Star Trek.

It's a good analogy though. There really is no win-win option in a situation like this. Someone gets hurt no matter which choice is made. Of course, the reality is, EVERYONE gets hurt to some degree no matter which choice is made.

To me, I think the path my BH and I have chosen involves the least amount of nuclear fallout. Perhaps it is only a delayed nuclear fallout, since my OC may want to find her bio dad and half-siblings someday, and then all of this would have to be dealt with at that time. But there's no way to know what she will and will not want to do when she is older. I can't base my decisions on an unknown that is many years in the future. Really, no one knows what the future holds. We can only do our best today and hope that it will be good enough.

Time to go and write. I'm starting to sound like an overblown Chinese fortune cookie.

I don't and I don't think that those who don't should have to suffer it, just in case the OP thinks they might have.

"What happens when the OC comes looking?"
All hell breaks lose is what happens. The selfishness of the OC to intrude into a family where they shouldn't be. Yes, it sucks for the OC, unfortunately maybe it sucked for an adopted child too. Me and my family are not responsible for the emotional well-being of the off-spring of every irresponsible person on earth. These are the consequences. Yes both of the parents should have thought about it and kept their respective pants on and honored their marriage vows. They didn't, and damage control to ALL of the innocents is more important than getting a few questions answered by someone who wasn't given enough in their life by their incompetent parent.

If OC comes knocking, then we will deal with it. In the meantime the best I can do is help my COM grow up self confident, moral, and strong. I pray that they will understand that I have dealt with the biggest of betrayals in the best manner in which I could and still survive to be here for them. Helping them grow and develop into the most awesome individuals they can become. If OC didn't get that from the OW who "Had to have a child by any means" that is her responsibility not mine and not my COM. Yes it sucks, but why continue to harm others just to get "what you need?"

Fled,

This is why it is so hard to post here some days. I understand it is very difficult for others to understand our POV. I can tell you honestly I wish I never knew about the OC. Yes, we have C. Yes, I am coming to love him for him but the pure selfishness that created him and the extreme lengths OW went to so her OC could have a full time dad have damaged me enough for a lifetime.

I don't think it is ever okay to blame the OC for any of this situation. They didn't choose this life. It was chosen for them. The OC is one of the innocents as well. I can understand an OC's need to know. I am an OC myself, and it will probably always feel like some part of me is missing because of that. But I didn't ask for it. I had no say in the choices that were made by my mother and father. I'm very grateful that my half-sister was willing to meet with me and answer some of the questions that I had about my father's side of the family. She was very warm, and welcoming, and gracious. We haven't kept in touch, by my choosing, but just meeting her meant a lot to me. I grew up an only child, and I spent many years wondering about my father's children.

I know it's a difficult situation for everyone involved. But I want my OC to grow up knowing that she is very much loved and wanted, for the person that she is in her own right, not for the circumstances which led to her conception. I have always suffered from low self-esteem because of the circumstances in which I grew up, and I don't want that to happen to her. I think it's very important in these situations to separate the child from the A.

Who said they are blaming the OC?

Maybe blaming wasn't the right word. I don't think Fled is blaming the OC in her case at all. However, I do think it's wrong to call an OC who goes looking for his/her bio family as "selfish." Adopted children search for their bio parents all the time. Sometimes, the bio parents agree to contact and sometimes they don't. But I think the OC (as well as adopted children) have the right to search for their bio parents if they so desire. If the bio parents don't agree to contact, then that should be respected. But calling an OC "selfish" just because they are curious about their absent parent is wrong, imo.

fled

"Me and my family are not responsible for the emotional well-being of the off-spring of every irresponsible person on earth."

Not everyone just your WS.

"I am trying to find the best solution to a situation that really has no good solution."

That is all that can be done.

I guess that to recover from an affair is the same no matter what level it went. If the WS and the BS want to recover what does it matter if SF was once, SF went on for years. Where ever what has be done by D day the mindset becomes at least it's over with. There will always be no matter what the WS did, it could of been worse.

Not one year two years.

Not one OP two OP.

Not one OC two OC.

Maybe I am an anathema, but as an adopted person, I can honestly say I never felt as if there was something missing growing up. I really didn't. I did have a mom and a dad. They were my mom and dad. One time in jr. high, someone asked me "Do you know where your parents are now?" asking about my bio mom and dad. I said, "They're at work" because to me parents were...my parents I lived with every day. My pet peeve is when someone asks an adopted person about their "real" parents. Like adoption makes it unreal.

I did have some health problems at 30, and my H ended up searching for my bio parents. Honestly, though they (well my bio mom at least) are nice, I would have been happy with a piece of paper listing health stuff, but I know them now, and that is that. I didn't feel some special lifetime movie feeling when I saw M.E. (bmom) for the first time. I already had a mom.

I guess I say all that to say that I believe that Writer's H IS her daughter's dad, at least in the ways that matter most. I also have quite a few half siblings. I will never know the ones on my bdad's side because he doesn't want them to know about me - I was an OC (my bmom didn't know he was married). My bmom's kids and I have met, but I don't really feel like a "sister."

I don't feel qualified to give any opinion (because that's what it is - an opinion) about whether or not to tell BS's about Oc's or anything. Obviously no one on my bdad's side knows I exist. I just know that it is possible for someone to love a child with no genetic connection, and it is possible for that child to feel completely loved. I am living proof.

I think the feeling of there being something missing in my life was because I didn't have a dad (or siblings) at all. My mother never married and never had any other children. In what little family I did have (grandmother, uncle, aunt, two cousins) I never really felt like I belonged - sort of a black sheep, I guess.

I'm hoping that my OC's experience will be different from my own, because she will have a mother and a father, brothers and sisters, etc. who love her very much and accept her as part of the family. I guess only time will tell if she will still feel that need to search for her bio dad's family or not.

I do think medical info is important. My mother believes that my grandmother on my father's side of the family may have had epilepsy. I've never had a seizure, but I have suffered from migraines for years, and I recently read that migraine sufferers are more likely to develop epilepsy in the future. I know epilepsy can run in families. It certainly would be nice to know if my paternal grandmother did indeed have epilepsy (I'm sure she is deceased by now, since my father would be in his late 70's) and at what age she developed it. I've also had to have a biopsy on a mole, which turned out to be a neurofibroma, which is most commonly found in people with neurofibromatosis, another genetically related condition. No one on my mother's side of the family has it, so that leaves my father's side. It really is good to have a medical history of both sides of the family.

And Gack, I just came up with 2 for you. Maybe not so common, but they are the 2 that have so far impacted me. I'm pretty sure breast cancer would be another. My cousin's mother and grandmother have both had breast cancer and so, she had to start getting mammograms at a much younger age because it runs in her family.

No! I am not responsible for anything having to do with OW's OC. Neither are my COM. My FWH takes care of his financial responsibilities, the OW should have thought of the rest of her OC's needs when she decided to get pregnant by someone who was not available to be a father to her OC and did not want to be a parent with her.

ON the medical information front, it really is a small issue. Many adoptive children have been well managed by their medical provider over the years by keeping in mind the fact that they are adopted. We can't change our genetics, but none of us should smoke, eat excessively, sit on the couch all day, etc. The normal, proactive healthy life style is all we have and there aren't any miracle drugs out there to prevent us from acquiring our genetic issues. We need a higher level of suspicion when our genetics are unknown, but we need to seek treatment, prevent what we can by our life style, then cope with the hand we are dealt in the best way possible.

The OW showed up at my house with my parents wanting to know the genetic history of my FWH "just in case". The only significant history she got and ever will is that he has had occasional severe moral lapses in judgement and the environment her OC is growing up in will probably encourage those.

Writer,
the fact that your BH views this child as his and is willing to raise this child with you in your home is the best gift you can give your child. I wish that such an option was available to the OC in our sitch, but that is not the OW. Your OC has the opportunity to grow up in a good environment,, without the difficulties you had, if you and your BH choose to give that to her. She can grow up without the issues you carrie around for so long. I truly believe that environment is far more important in the well being of a person than biology is.

I agree. My mother wasn't able to provide that for me, and I honestly think it would have made all the difference. I spent so much of my childhood fantasizing about my mother meeting someone and getting married and having more kids. It kind of bothers me that my OC won't really "grow up" with her brothers and sisters, since her closest sibling is 14 years older than she is. But all of my kids adore her, and she will have two parents who love her very much. I think that's the best thing I can give her. I certainly don't want to put her in a situation where there is a paternity/custody battle. I can't even imagine how that situation would work since OC is only 14 months old and the OM lives 3000 miles away. It would be a nightmare of massive proportions.

Writer,

Your child (OC) will have something few children have. A Dad that actually chose her. He chose to be his daughter. He had many choices and she was chosen by him to be his daughter.

I think this is rather positive don't you? Lurioosi makes a good point. And your point was that you did not have the full family experience so yes something was missing. However, don't project that on to your child. This child has a Mom and a Dad, and in this case Dad had a choice to accept her or not.

I think this is good, don't you?

God Bless,

JL

I agree completely.

Ok, I yield. I like that we all can repsectfully share many points of view. Great! It helps to see how something can be looked at many angles.

In my case, my sitch, since I'm staying with my WH for the foreseeable future I would want to know mainly because it would be a drain on our finances if we had one of these OWs come forward with an OC. And then what if there are multiple OC's and their mamas come looking for some cash assistance or/and asking for him to be a part of that child / childrens life, visitation. I already 5 children and that's a lot of financial responsibility as is. As well as time they need spent with their father. It would drastically alter the map. And even more so if he actually knows of some, OCs, and chose to live the next say 15 years with that knowledge and not clue me in, until said OC pops into the picture. I wouldn't blame OC but once again I'd be back at square one, my then FWH would still have been lying to me. I'd want to know since I'm staying with him. But hey if he leaves or I kick him out, then I'd already be setting up child support and visitation if need be. And what happens with OW and her OC/s is just on him.

Then I had this freak vision of my DD one day dating this fellow she felt so close to but couldn't pin point why and they decided to get married. But before they got married they so courteously wanted the future in laws to meet. Only to have my then FWH pull me aside and say I need to talk. BTW, FBW this woman was one of the X-OWs and DS could very well be mine. DD and soon to be OWs DS are blood related. Boy, wouldn't that create a mess!

Hey though, the chances of that happening are probably like that of a jumbo jet landing on my roof tomorrow!

Writer I know you are going to make the best deciscions you know how for your daughter. I just caution you to always tell the truth to her when you choose to say anything to her about her lineage or when she asks. The truth is always best, even if it's not pretty.

I wished my husbands parents and his half siblings parents had told the children the truth. It's been difficult for him to process the reality of what it is.

And that's why I caution you to always share with her the truth.

fled

"No! I am not responsible for anything having to do with OW's OC."

Alway the OW's OC.

Why not just OC.

Why never WH's child or WH's OC?

I understand your need for OW and WH to have NC. Though it seems that you have so much hate, well maybe better said as anger towards the OC.

Not the OC Road. OW. The women intentionally sought out a man to get PG with. It is her child. Not ours. We made a joint decision to have no more children. My FWH was denied all rights after the "Free Sex, Just for Fun, No Harm, No one will Know". She planned the PG with fertility monitoring. This is not our child, not a member of our family. these are the consequences the OW chose for her child. And she depends on people with opinions such as yours to support her in her cause of being supported by
"The Dead Beat Father" that didn't stick it out with the OW.

Yes there will always be anger toward OW. She is stealing from my COM everyday. She causes pain to our family every day. It doesn't go away when there is an OC, because she will potentially provide information to OC to come find us. Very clearly, we don't want to be involved with OC or we would have sued for custody. Unfortunately, FWH also isn't allowed to place OC up for adoption when he was born so that he could be raised in a loving, moral home either.

Don't rant on me Road, you aren't walking in my shoes!!

fled and W1

�It is her child. Not ours.�

So the OW is asexual and can reproduce on her own. Sorry but the OC is just as much your WH�s as she is hers.

�We made a joint decision to have no more children.�

And your WH has had no more kids with you. So?

�My FWH was denied all rights�

That�s why there are courts.

�This is not our child�

Again not yours but your WH's

�these are the consequences the OW chose for her child.�

True.

�And she depends on people with opinions such as yours to support her in her cause of being supported by "The Dead Beat Father" that didn't stick it out with the OW.�

False. I believe in NC between the AP�s once recovery has started.

�Yes there will always be anger toward OW. She is stealing from my COM�

Your WH�s past action is also responsible for the stealing.

�we don't want to be involved with OC or we would have sued for custody. Unfortunately, FWH also isn't allowed to place OC up for adoption when he was born so that he could be raised in a loving, moral home either.�

How moral is your home and you and your WH?

Where the both of you let WH�s child be raised in an unmoral home.

�Don't rant on me Road, you aren't walking in my shoes�

I don�t think I would be able to raise another man�s OC. So I don�t find fault with your emotions and feelings where you do not want anything to do with the OC. To me your words place all the blame on the OW.

Did your WH not know about how babies are made?

The problem is when you use logic and reasons that make no sense to justify your position.

fled, the thing is you do what you can handle. Sometimes one has to do things in life the does not want to do. Sometimes one winds up doing more then they thought they could handle.

The thing is an affair can�t be undone, an OC can�t be undone.

Writer1�s BH has to accept the OC.

Why?

It is the price to pay to keep his life intact. He did not have an affair. He was content. Does not mean they could not of had a better marriage. Though to be there everyday with his family life still there he has to accept being a cuckold to keep having his wife and COM under the same roof to come home to every day.

This is how a BS stay�s on. He says thank god it was only an EA, If it was a ONS PA then the response becomes TG it was only one time. The PA could have been a year long, or TG only and OC there could have been two OC.

However the scenario played out for the BH his acceptance is based on thank god it could have been worse. This is how a BH justifies sticking around. So he can keep his family intact.

What does the WW do for her BH to stick around committed to the family and raise her OC?

What is her price to pay?

Stop having sex with OM.

WW got extra thrill. Gets to keep her alpha male OC.

Road: Except, in my case, my BH did actually have an A. I'm not trying to play the "he started it" game here, but I think the reason that my H was able to forgive me for my A and accept the OC into our family is because he set a precedent of unfaithfulness in our M from the very beginning. These aren't my words, by the way, they're his. I think my A is what really made my H realize that I never felt secure in his feelings for me. Talk about walking a mile in someone's shoes. It would be almost impossible for me to explain to anyone what it feels like to realize 1 week after your wedding that your new H is still in love with someone else, and then to have those feelings for another person become a recurring nightmare over the course of the next 10 years of your relationship. And even after the A ended, to not have any true plan for R and simply try to brush everything that happened under the rug and go on as though none of those 10 years ever really mattered.

That doesn't justify my having an A. No matter the state of a M, an A is never the answer. I know that now. I guess I didn't when my A began. When my A started, I pretty much would have done anything just to hear someone say they loved me and feel like they really meant it. 13 years of loneliness and being made to feel as though you're #2 in someone's heart will make you fairly desperate. I did a lot of desperate things that I am not proud of. My H did a lot of things that he's not proud of too. But we're doing our best to move forward and create the kind of M that we should have been building all along. Will we succeed after so much pain and betrayal? Only time will tell.

fled

care to respond?

I'll bite.

>How moral is your home and you and your WH?

>To me your words place all the blame on the OW.


WTF?

You have no idea what goes on at Fled's house.

Further, I'd be willing to bet your WIFE asked for your forgiveness...prolly begged for it. And YOU gave it to her. I'll even UP the ante and bet the farm Fled's husband did the same thing.

You deign to look down your nose when you made the SAME decision?

The only other qualifier in this equation was the OC...and Fled and her husband decided no contact with monetary support.

Period. They did what was best for THEIR family - whether YOU agree with it or not really doesn't play into it. For you to call out that their decisions were immoral isn't really for YOU to judge.

You don't even have an inkling the pain and agony of these decisions, yet you feel need to spurt your righteous indignation at what YOU perceive is wrong.

Classic. THIS is why people don't post here often...there is a dayumed if you do, dayumed if you don't black hole that is nearly impossible to break free of.

Writer posts here and gets the riot act read to her for being wayward.

Fled posts and gets the riot act read to her for attempting to save HER family.

I post here and people say they "could never"! UGH!

Do you all see? We all were in positions to make decisions to save our families the best way we could?

That's it. THAT'S the common denominator.

You all have it too...you who don't have the OC to worry about...you have the SAME problem...what do you do to save your family or not?

My apologies, Writer, for the threadjack.

It's OK to put posters on "ignore".

I (heart) Pep.

TJ away. I've pretty much just accepted the fact that you can't please everyone. I don't even try anymore. For me, the important thing is that my H and I are deciding together how we want to handle the situation and what we feel is best for our family. In our situation, it seems as though we really wouldn't have much to gain by telling the OM's ex-W about the OC or going after him for CS, so we've decided not to do it. We are doing what we feel is best for our M, COM's, and our OC. When it comes right down to it, if we are happy with our situation, then nothing else really matters.

Dde: You are doing what is best for your family in your own unique situation. I truly believe that Fled and her H are doing what is best for them as well. People will pass judgement if they will, but until they have walked a mile in our shoes, they can't really know what they would and would not do if they found themselves in a similar situation.

I'll bite cuz I normally respect the heck out of TR. Let me tell you something, TR...these situations with an OC make people so dayum uncomfortable on these boards that people either post to us with righteous indignation or ignore us. The fact is EVERY family that suffers through an A has to do what is best for THEM. I do not look down on anyone for having NC with the OC. In fact I generally advise new BS's in this situation to consider NC because C is H A R D. How would you feel if your FWW had to have C with the OM for the rest of her life? Yeah there can be 3rd party mediators but honestly it doesn't really happen very often.

You see the OW with OC are very entitled. They think because they gave birth to our H's child that they now hold a place of honor in our H's life. They will use that child every way they can to manipulate the WH and to hold over the BW.

And..to answer the above "moral" question...well we have C with the OC and we can do NOTHING about the lousy parenting and immoral lifestyle of the OW. N O T H I N G..remember what we say around here "you can only control YOU". So week after week we work, work, work on teaching a 4 year old manners and to not throw tantrums, to eat a meal, to go to bed on time, to not throw things, not hit other kids, not yell when he wants something etc etc. MAYBE we will make a difference, maybe not but I would not even consider having this child around if my COM were younger like Fled's. I would only do it if I had full custody because one child is not worth sacrificing all the others for.

Amen my sister! This is why this board is so slow and why some of us have to go to a more private place to get help.

FF: Are people still posting on the private board? I joined before the crash, but it didn't seem like anyone was posting there anymore, so I didn't bother to request to join again. If it's active again, I might head over there.

" For me, the important thing is that my H and I are deciding together how we want to handle the situation and what we feel is best for our family."





EGG-ZAK-LEE

Email me writer. My addy is in my profile.

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Well, I'd have to disagree with you on this one. I came over here to post, and I felt like you "regulars" ganged up on my for posting MY POV. In my sitch, I may NEVER know if there is an OC out there until some kid knocks on my door. The OW is out of the picture now, but I know they had unprotected sex. I offered up my POV as the WH's wife, saying "I" would like to know if WH fathered a child, and I would hope, if the OW has turned her life around as writer has, that someone would do the courtesy of a phone call. I don't trust my WH to keep me updated on the situation, so I'd hope if the OW in my case would fill me in as part of her "owning" her mistakes.
Clearly, it could be the OW is still foggy and I'll never hear the truth. I can only hope that if there is an OC out there, someone will tell me before my doorbell rings...
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But then, after offering my point of view, you guys laid into me, saying I had no clue, etc., and I basically decided to STFU. So, as one who is now "afraid" to post here, I can offer that some of us feel like you ran us off. I was hoping to have a meaningful dialog but it doesn't feel safe for me.
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I'm glad you have a private place, and feel free to blast me there or here if it helps. Heading back over to "where I belong..."

Faithful: I just sent you an email.

back at you, hon

First of all ima you are welcome to post anywhere you like. Second this is inaccurate What was being discussed was writers xOM's BW is his EX now. What we said was if we were already divorced, the xOWH was raising the OC and our support from our ex was not at risk we would NOT want to know about the OC ESPECIALLY coming from the xOW. You misinterpreted that to mean that if we were still M'd we would not want to know. Your sit is different, you are still married. Of COURSE you want to know if OW or OC is going to show up demanding money!

I will tell you though it is not OW's place to tell the BW. The only reason an OW would do this would be for her own personal gain, IMHO.

BTW, no one is "talking" about you on our private board. Our board is to be able to support each other without us getting beat up for living our lives the best we can.

In my opinion, the above situation is where your focus ought to be.

Recovery and real marital intimacy is impossible under your current circumstances.

I'm very sorry your M is still so unsafe.

Where in this quote from me or anyone else did they say STFU to you? Nobody, we disagreed with the OW contacting the exW of the OM. It honestly is not up to writer to tell her that there is an OC.

ITA. I am sorry for your pain, ima

Well THERE'S one thing we can ALL agree on.

> I don't trust my WH to keep me updated on the situation

If he didn't tell you (given that he knew), imo it's justifiable homicide.

Plain and simple.

All kidding aside...has your wh done ANYTHING to make you feel safe yet?

D-day was so long ago...I'm so sorry Ima.

I'm not going to thread jack too much here, but suffice it to say, he may THINK he has done things to protect me, but they most certainly AREN'T the things I need to feel safe, based on my ENs. And yes, he's smart (Ph.D. in fact) and has counseled with the Harleys, so this is a conscious decision, IMO. I have a small thread over on MB 101 forum to give the tip of the iceberg. But yeah, gettin' tired of treading water. Storm's a brewin'.

�I'll bite.�

I�ll bite back.

�You have no idea what goes on at Fled's house.�

True.

�You deign to look down your nose when you made the SAME decision?�

All a BS needs to have NC with the OC is that they chose not to just for the emotional pain drain on their health contact would have.

Fled used words to justify NC with the OC. The logic in her choice of words is what I disagree with. Not with her decision for NC with the OC.

I do not sit in judgment of her decision. I support it. It is what works for her. Do you see the difference? Not what see did. How she justified it.

�They did what was best for THEIR family - whether YOU agree with it or not really doesn't play into it. For you to call out that their decisions were immoral isn't really for YOU to judge.�

When there is an OC there has to be the least damage possible for all, all damage can not be avoided for some. However fled only lays into the OW not the WH. Then calls the OW being unfit, but it�s ok for her WH to leave his child in such a situation.

�there is a dayumed if you do, dayumed if you don't black hole that is nearly impossible to break free of.�

dayumed not for what fled did, dayumed for what she said.

I never had an OC to face. Believe there should be NC between the AP�s. Best most times for the OC not to be shuttled back and forth.

Thank you for the clarifications, TR. I really, really appreciate it.

wowza, wowza, wowza, interesting reading this thread. it brought so many memory's back. from my dads A with mom, my brother who started life as an oc, 1/2 twin sisters whom i have never met and my own oc situation

writer........ i applaud you and your h for your decision to raise this little peanut as your/his own.

with all the pain and difficulties thru the nearly 9 years of living with this i could not imagine life without our little.................now that may change when she hits the 13 - 18 nightmare years. but for now it's good

i understand your reasons for wanting info on om and his family history but don't quite get all the hoopla that's made over blood type and medical history.

i never had a clue as to my mom and dads blood type and knowing he had coronary artery desease didn't stop me from following suit. with the technology today blood can be typed in a blink, you can be screened for about everything and regular checkups work wonders for diagnosing future illness. just mho

notherone......again just mho but i don't see where worrying about what "might" be will help you in any way as far as pssible oc. i think you should be focusing on bettering the relationship with h and dealing with anything else when it comes up.

with this particular forum you can prepare yourself thru the vast experiences of people who have walked in those shoes IF the need ever raises its ugly head

fled.........i understand and support your decisions of nc. maybe this is cause for another thread (and i appoligize for not remembering this detail from your sit) but i was curious whether your com's are aware of oc.

dealan.........as always i love reading your reply's. your
de-ism's bring a smile with every read.

to all...... this site was a GOD send to me when i found myself dealing with this mess.

it is also a derned if you do/don't place also. which is why FH doesn't read or post

one definately has to have a thick skin to be here

Thank you FF, and Dealan-de. Those of you have interacted with me enough to have some knowledge of who I am. Instead of someone coming out of left field an attacking me for My Feelings, and My Opinions. I don't really care if TR can "get it". The comments from him were not designed to make one think but to inflame.
For your information TR.
I have been recovering my M for almost five years. The anger you hear from me towards OW has not changed one bit in that time because the behaviors of the OW have not changed one bit. On the other hand, my FWH made a huge IMMORAL lapse in judgement 6 years ago. You expect me after going through and working on recovery WITH him during that time. HIM carrying the majority of the load in this recovery. Doing everything that MB recommends for the recovery of the M and the benefit of his COM to still sound as angry and disgusted with him as I do with her? You are NUTS!

My FWH has worked extremely hard to help me heal. The OW will not go away. She has been completely informed by her attorney and ours that they are her only contact. She refuses to abide by these terms. This OW intentionally sought out a man to get pregnant by, using the court system to be supported by, and her custody protected by. The courts would not remove the OC from her as you very well know unless she is physically, sexually or severely emotionally abusive. The courts don't care about immoral. Yes, we all do immoral things. I think your right and should designate myself that way because I think a stole a piece of gum in third grade. Get over your accusations TR.

You accuse me of being immoral because I cannot do anything about who the OC's mother is? The courts don't allow it. Even if it was in the OC's best interest the OW cannot be removed from the OC's life just because she is willing to manipulate multiple people lives with complete disregard of the consequences to achieve what she wants. I have a huge amount of compassion for her X-BS for what she did to him. However, I cannot fix the world. I can only take care of myself and my COM, work on my M with my remorseful and dedicated FWH.

You do not know who I help in my life or my world. The person I cannot and will not help is the OW. That does NOT make me immoral. The OC is receiving more CS to take care of him than COM and many other children (if the the OW is taking it all for herself, that's the law) There are plenty of kind hearts like yourself that will jump right in for the poor thing who was abandon by the scumbag that got her pregnant to help her. (OC is no worse off without a father than my neighbors son whose father was killed in a car accident when he was a newborn...that sucks too) She planned her seduction, her pregnancy, and the fatherless life of her OC. This was and still is her goal. She didn't want to share parenting, she wanted to be a mom before she couldn't be. Her OC will suffer for it. I am not going to throw the well being of the other victims of her scheme into the furnace so that OC might benefit a little. There isn't enough goodness in the world to undo what she has done and the forever reaching consequences of her behavior.

My explanations are not justifications of my life. They are how we see and feel it. I am not willing to remove the emotions from my life to have a black and white. The world is gray. It doesn't function rationally and cannot be place into neat little cubbies. The fact that this site exists is more than glaring with proof of how unfortunate it is that so many people think that they can have just a little bit of something that doesn't belong to them. Fortunately some of them learn, even if it is a little bit to late.

Fled (And Proud of IT!!)

imanotherone,

I am very sorry for your pain. The written word leaves out many emotions and doesn't always come across clearly. I understand your fear of the unknown. The worst part is that WH isn't willing to give you the information you need to heal this fear. No, I wouldn't want the phone call from the OW. I believe it is the WS's responsibility to tell you the truth. But, the next possibility would be, without contacting the OW, let a private investigator research her for the possibility. Let the PI see if there is an age appropriate child and check the birth certificate. You do not need to C the OW, nor does she need to C you. But you seem to need to have the question cleared up. It is a real fear for you.
There are ways to do it without having C with OW, but your WH needs/should be helping you.

"The courts would not remove the OC from her as you very well know unless she is physically, sexually or severely emotionally abusive. The courts don't care about immoral.

I was ready to let this go but, did your WH fight for sole custody?

As for court's not caring. You said OW is unfit. Why would a court leave a child in an unfit home when there is a bio parent willing to provide a wholesome home for a child?

I don't fault you for not wanting to raise the OC just on the basis that you do not want the OC.

I fault you for the way you justify things. When you justify it sounds just as a WS justifying their affair.

I do not fault your actions I fault your words.

The courts do not remove children because the mother is morally unfit. It is very difficult and costly to gain custody for a father, especially when the parents were never M'd. Ask Delean-de, they had to wage a big battle and her xOW is unfit in every way imaginable.

"Ask Delean-de, they had to wage a big battle and her xOW is unfit in every way imaginable"

I remember Delean-de made the effort and won custody. Delean, "put her money where her mouth is".

Not everyone has the money for the mouth...as it was, we ended up in a crappy apartment for 3 years so that we could afford to do this. We lost nearly everything and are just now gaining our foothold back.

Thank you for telling us about this, writer. Can you face another difficult issue?

One way of looking at this is that you did try to keep in contact with OM. At least at first, would you say that you hoped that he would be so delighted at your pregnancy, and so protective of you, that he would come and sweep you away?

Why was he willing to have you leave your marriage during your last trip to Vermont, but unwilling to follow that through once the baby was confirmed, only a few weeks later? Did he lose interest when he found out that you were pregnant? He hasn't shown any interest in your daughter since, has he? (Even though that is a good thing for your marriage.)

Could it be said that in fact he dropped you when he found out that you were pregnant? I know you said you chose your marriage, but you found out you were pregnant after that, and began to contact OM with baby news. He did not respond much, from what you have said here.

I'm sorry if these questions upset you; I don't mean to do that. I just wonder if you have explored your feelings fully, and if they are affecting your relationship with your H.

I am well beyond getting upset over OM's commitment to me at this point.

Actually, when I was in Vermont that last time, I told OM that I was seriously considering staying to work on my M. He said he respected that, and for a few days, he did, and nothing happened. But, we were staying in a hotel room together (separate beds, but still). Silly me, I thought I could overcome the temptation to fall back into old ways while we were sleeping in the same room, and I thought it wasn't really "cheating" as long as we weren't doing anything. I was so dumb back then.

Of course, the PA eventually started up again and OM thought that meant we were back on and my M was back off. I have no clue what I was thinking. Almost as soon as I got back home, I told OM I still had feelings for my H and I owed it to him to try to work on my M. I didn't find out I was pregnant until 3 weeks later.

When I found out I was pregnant, OM thought that would change everything. He really wanted me to leave my H and marry him so we could raise our child together. But I still loved my H and I think by this time, my feelings for OM were really starting to fade. We didn't live near each other, and the only time we were actually together was during our 2-week residencies in Vermont, so most of our A was carried on long distance. In spite of the pregnancy, I knew my relationship with OM wasn't what I wanted, and I told him so. Needless to say, he didn't take it too well.

We did stay in contact throughout my entire pregnancy, mostly through email. And, when I was 6 months pregnant, I went back to Vermont for my last residency and graduation from my MFA program. OM was there too. We were in the same class. I saw him everyday for 2 weeks and spent a lot of time with him, but since we weren't doing anything physical, I didn't see that as a continuation of my A, not at the time at least. I see things differently now. If I knew then what I know now, I never would have went back to Vermont. Those two weeks we spent together really set back my recovery and the recovery of my M a lot. It stirred up a lot of confusing feelings in me that didn't go away for a very long time.

So, OM and I stayed in regular contact until our OC was about 6 months old. We emailed and IM'd most of that time. I thought, at the time, that it would be best for our child if we stayed "friends." I honestly thought it could work, but of course it couldn't. All that contact was constantly bringing back old feelings. I didn't consider myself to be in an active A at this time, but of course, by MB standards, I still was, even though I my relationship with the OM was platonic and I no longer had any intention of leaving my M.

Ultimately, OM's emails became more and more infrequent. He couldn't handle just being "friends" and it was almost impossible for him to really be a part of our OC's life, since he was 3000 miles away. I admit, I had a hard time letting go when he started drifting away. I really thought I could have the best of both worlds - my H and the OM (just as a "friend"). So, to answer your question, I ended the romantic relationship with OM and he ended the friendship relationship. It was soon after the "friendship" ended that I found MB. I went searching for a support site because I was going through big-time withdrawals at that point and I really needed some help.

Sorry, I didn't answer your question about whether my feelings are affecting my relationship with my H.

I think it's definitely possible. We've only been NC since the end of August, so it really hasn't been that long. I thought my M had been in R since I ended the PA in January 08, but MB has helped me realize that, by staying in contact with OM (and not all of our contact was about the baby, I'm afraid) I never really allowed my M to reach the R phase. I think things are slowly getting better now that we have NC. I will admit that, even as late as last summer, I was still having doubts about whether or not I had done the right thing by staying with my H. When I first came to MB in early Sept., I freely admitted that I still had feelings for OM. I got a lot of 2 by 4's for that one.

So, our real R is only about 3 1/2 months along now. I'm still really new to all of this and trying to find my way. Somedays, I do better than others, but I am trying.

Thank you, writer. I do appreciate your talking about this.

So if your communication wasn't all about the baby, was it sometimes about your relationship? You say in another sentence that you kept in touch as "friends", but didn't you sometimes talk about the two of you, and your marriage? If you had doubts until quite recently about staying with your H, didn't you sometimes say that to OM?

Did you feel dumped when he let it drift away? Being brutally honest, was telling him about the baby at intervals a way of keeping the door just a little ajar?

I remember your first thread, and I remember people working hard to tell you why NC was a must, but I don't remember your admitting to still having feelings for OM. You must have been whacked for that!

I would not be surprised if those feelings came back sometimes. However, Dr Harley assures us that with NC those feelings will fade, as they seem to be doing for you. However, marital issues need to be addressed also, to make recovery really successful. I have found recovery hard as a BW. I expect you do too. Do you feel completely "over" your H's affair now?

Also, did your MC never tell you that you must go NC for your marriage to work?

I think maybe, for me, the OC was a way to keep OM in my life as a friend, yes. That's really how I thought of him, before our A and after. He was meeting some of my EN's that my H had just never been able to meet, and I didn't want to let that go.

OM and I are both writers. We met in our MFA program. We had a lot in common and hit it off from the very beginning. We were friends for a year before the A started. We'd read many of the same books and had a lot of similar interests. It was nice to have someone to talk to who understood so much about something that was so important to me. Writing has always been my dream, my passion. It's what I've wanted to do since I was 5 years old. But I had never really known any other writers before I started my MFA program. No one in my life really understood what writing meant to me. OM was in a similar situation. We understood each other.

My H and I have struggled in finding common interests. He isn't even a reader, much less a writer. It bothered me that he wouldn't even read my writing. I could understand that reading wasn't really his thing, but this was something that was so important to me, and it hurt that he didn't want to be a part of it in any way. We're working on that now. He's read a few books and is even enjoying it. He's read some of my writing. But we still struggle. We really are very different people with very different interests. It makes things more difficult.

I don't know how I feel about my H's EA anymore. I can say, it made making the decision to stick around and work on my M much harder. I kept asking myself what exactly was I coming back to? A man who couldn't commit his entire heart to me for the first 10 years of our M? It was hard. I had a lot of anger and a lot of resentment. If my H hadn't bent over backwards trying to prove how much he really did love me and how much he truly wanted our M to succeed during my A, I doubt I would be here today. I am here because of his actions. I am here because, everyday for 6 months, no matter how hard I pushed him away, no matter how many times I told him we were over, he never waivered. He finally showed the commitment to our M I had been looking for all along. I figured, after everything I put him through during my A, he must really want to be here, or he would have walked away. I gave him every reason and opportunity to go, if that's what he really wanted.

My MC (3 of them, to be exact) never said anything about NC. Maybe that's why so many people on here have such a low opinion of MC's.

Writer,

Perhaps it is because you are relating the details of your A to us, but I must say that you come across as incredibly selfish. I know you H had a 10 year EA which you knew all about. But you deliberately got pregnant and risked the home of your daughter.

Oh, I was incredibly selfish when I was involved in my A. I don't see how it's possible to have an A and not be selfish. But that's where my mind was at at different times during this process, and it is a process, one I am learning more and more about everyday. I'm not there yet, but I do hope I'm moving in the right direction.

I may be wrong, but speaking as a writer myself, I think relaying events as they were comes "easier" when you write. I could still detail for you my thought processes during my A quite articulately. But despite the clarity, that does not mean I feel that way now. It's like telling any story vividly; the story just happens to be ours. If you read my book, you would be appalled at it's main character. Even though some of the events are fictionalized, there is no doubt it is me (yes, a Mary Sue of gigantic proportions) But the way I felt during that book is not the way I felt now, or even while writing it.

I think that the honesty of Writer's memories may be unsettling, but it seems to me that that is what they are, memories of a person who no longer exists.

And they are much appreciated by me for their clarity and insight. Thanks again, writer.

Oh I definitely appreciate the honesty and we are all selfish to some extent and that extent varies from day to day. I was mostly interested in seeing if writer had any reflections on that and how it took control of her to such an extent.

I think Lurioosi hit the nail right on the head. As writers, this is what we do. We put ourselves fully in the minds of our characters and experience everything they are feeling/thinking/experiencing in that moment, whether we ourselves would agree with it or not. In this case, the "character" is myself, but I have done this with every fictional character I have ever created as well. For me, it helps me understand what happened by trying to get back into my own head while I was actually going through those things. It in no way reflects how I feel about my own actions now. I didn't think what I was doing was so very wrong or bad at the time, because if I had, I wouldn't have done it. I feel very differently about my actions back then now than I did when these events were actually occurring.

I think my mission here is twofold: 1) To help myself understand why I did the things that I did so that I do not ever find myself in that position again and 2) To provide others a glimpse into the wayward mind so that they might better understand the wayward thought processes, and just how wrong-minded those thought processes can become.

It isn't my intention to offend anyone.

Writer..

I think you should re-read this thread. I just skimmed back over it and I can tell you just from doing that, you are much less foggy today than you where when you started this thread.

THIS is why N.C. is SOOOOOOO Important.

A wayward (or Former Wayward) can not see there own fog at that moment. But as more time in N.C. passes, they can look back and see it.

Gack, I totally agree. And this isn't even my original thread. That was lost in the crash. My original thread was started just a couple of days after my last conversation with the OM. The fog was so thick, I couldn't even see my own hand in front of my face. I'm kind of glad it's gone, to tell you the truth, though it probably would have done me good to go back and revisit those 2 by 4's once in awhile.

As writer suggests, the process of having an affair is intrinsically selfish. writer could not come across as anything but, at that time. Your W ex-wife was selfish, 6years, but unlike her, writer took a look at her life and her actions and chose to end that era in her life. She is now taking a hard look at her actions (because we ask her to; I, for one, find this most helpful) and seeing them actions and her mindset then for the true horror that they were.

She deliberately got pregnant and risked the home of her daughter (or do you mean her existing children? If she had got what she wanted at that time, her daughter and she would have been living with OM), but so does every wayward risk the home of their children, even without deliberately causing a pregnancy. Every wayward knows that if they get found out, their marriage could end, and thus could their children's security.

My H knew that he would get found out one day, so he told me. He DID get found out, the first time 6 weeks into his affair. He buried it for two more years, which was easy for him to do, since it took place abroad, where he worked a few days per month. He knew that he was risking the end of the marriage by starting and then by continuing the affair. He might not have regretted the end of the marriage at the height of the affair (he says he would have), but he knew would destroy the children and their home, and he knew they did not deserve that.

Every WS is horribly, destructively selfish, and the biggest selfishness is towards their children, to whom they owe their best. Some WSs try to put this right, however, as writer is doing.

W1, and other�s feel free to toss in your two cents.

OM are knocked on MB for the low morals by them willingly having a PA with a married woman.

They betrayed their BW and knifed the WW's BH in the back. At first you would think they could go no lower.

But they can. They do not use protection, then produce an OC and then walk away from their own child to never look back.

It is usually best for the WW to tell the BH about the DNA gift, recover their marriage and with her BH raise the OC as their own, and NC with the OM.

Even though NC is best. I criticize OM, for most OM never lose any sleep from abandoning their child. They don�t want to parent, input in the development of their child, put up the money of their own doing to cover the cost of raising their child.

Usually fight for custody/visitation for the OC as a way to punish the WW and BH for going after the OM for court mandated CS.

Or fight for custody/visitation to prevent NC with the hopes that the PA will restart.

Scientist�s have shown that women are very careful to protect their reproduction system. That who they mate with will make up their off spring�s character and physical traits.

So why do women keep having PA�s, and get pregnant with OM that abandon their own children. They mate with selfish men, that will not raise their own. OM that prefer to walk away then fight to co parent even if the affair is over and they do not want to restart it.

Is it that WW feel or realized they did not marry an alpha male?

Then want to have an alpha get them pregnant?

That their beta male BH will accept the OC so the BM/BH will be able to keep his alpha female and his family intact?

What makes the traits of an OM so desirable to a WW that she will let the OM impregnate her then let her child/OC be abandoned by his father?

My two cents are that you are trying to make sense of affair behaviour, which is never logical, desirable, or capable of achieving good outcomes for anyone. You are trying to make sense of the sense-less.

SC: I agree. A's do not make sense, and trying to fit them into something sensible and reasonable does not work.

The thought processes that occur during an A are not normal. They are generally full of rationalizations and defenses in an attempt to justify the behavior. So, any of the "reasons" that I could give for wanting to have a child with the OM during the time of my A would not make sense to anyone not involved in the foggy, distorted thinking of an A. They do not even make sense to me now.

My A didn't result in an OC, but we also didn't use protection. Honestly, a baby or STD's were not even in my mind. The first time, OM even asked, "do we need something?" and I said no. Sadly, in my stupid, wayward, ridiculous state, I wanted to have the true intimate experience and not have anything "in the way." Ough, I think I just threw up a little in my mouth. So I can attest to the fact that the if A then B logic process is not even existant during an A.

W1

I hope you did not think I was attacking you. Just thinking about how an OM gets to walk away and leave a mess behind him just got my keyboard going.

I do thank you for giving insight what went through your mind back then.

TR: I did not feel attacked. I just don't have a good answer.

The reality is, men get to walk away from children in our society all the time. When I married my H, I already had three kids. I've never seen so much as one dime of child support from their bio dads in the last 20 years. My H and I raised these kids without any involvement from their bio dads at all. I had a child support order for the youngest two, but as soon as the first payment was taken from his paycheck, he disappeared. He left the country and wasn't heard from again for 15 years. He probably owes me around $70,000 in back child support, but I know I'll never see a penny of it.

In the case of the OM, he got to walk away because I let him. I didn't feel as though it was in my OC's best interests to get dragged through a lengthy and messy CS/custody case, and they are all lengthy and messy. I had been through that before with my ex, and I didn't want to go through it again.

It may seem like OM is getting off scot free, but he's missing out on a lot of wonderful experiences as well. My H and I get to raise this crazy little kid who always has a big smile on her face and gives the most wonderful mushy kisses and is a wonderful bundle of joy and energy. OM just gets to live with his own guilty conscience. I honestly believe we got the better end of the bargain.

Hi SugarCane,

One little correction my xWW IS selfish and childish.

Writer,

One question from your post, and this will seem harsh but I'm only pointing out for your own introspection. It seems you have 5 children with 4 different fathers and were never married to a man who got you pregnant. I think even the one child with your BH was conceived before you were married. I did the same thing with baby number one in our family. One other question is the timing between the children. The ages of the older 4 are all very close, how did you switch between men so quickly? And why did you feel like you needed to do that?

I also want to point out to the OM bashers (not to defend OM as they are not my favorite group) but they do lose the child.

The Road~ You give betrayers way too much credit. Honestly, the only thing going through my mind while cheating was-this feels good. I wasn't thinking alpha male, beta male, parcel post mail or any such thing. Yes, I knew I could get pregnant but I didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking about the possibility at all, and probably even worse I didn't spend ANY time thinking on the possibility of STDs. I was reckless, careless, lazy, selfish, and also foolish to think it, (preg), wouldn't happen at my age. When in an affair people generally put ALL common sense completely out of their mind, because having common sense includes saying to yourself- NO DON'T DO IT, WALK AWAY! Actually I should qualify, almost every waking moment I wasn't with om I did tell myself to stop it, walk away. In fact I would chant this the entire 45 minute ride home from his house because I was so disgusted with myself. Just sadly not disgusted enough to follow through with ending it, at least not till I received the major dose of reality- my pregnancy.

6years: Yes, I made a lot of mistakes when I was younger. I have never denied that. I was raised an only child by a single mother who was not remotely affectionate or loving. I went looking for love, or what I thought was love anyway, in any way that I could find it.

And I am married to the bio father of one of my children. No, we were not married when our son was conceived, but we were engaged and already had a date set for the wedding, which wasn't far off, so we didn't even have to move up the date for me to still fit in my dress.

Trust me, I have engaged in plenty of introspection about my past choices.

And yes, the OM in my case did lose a child. It was his choice to do so.

autumn day

�Honestly, the only thing going through my mind while cheating was-this feels good.�

You had needs being met by the OM?

Did you ever insist on protection, paid lip service for it, did OM push to not use protection, encourage that it not be used?

How was protection handled from beginning to end?

�I wasn't thinking alpha male, beta male, parcel post mail or any such thing. Yes, I knew I could get pregnant but I didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking about the possibility at all, and probably even worse I didn't spend ANY time thinking on the possibility of STDs....and also foolish to think it, (preg), wouldn't happen at my age.�

Something/s has to make a WW not care. Let her ignore the risks. Ignore the consequences. I sure it varies from WS to WS to take such action.

Autumn it's great the way you own your actions. Though as much as I want insight to a WW�s thought�s process back then. I see WW�s not responding to my opinion of OM. This shows to me that the WW is still protecting the OM.
All, let�s discuss.

TR: Okay, what questions are we not answering regarding the OM?

I already said that I think the OM in my case wanted me to get pregnant because he believed that would give me incentive to leave my H and marry him.

Maybe we're answering this from the perspective of WW's, because that's what we were. You can really only know your own heart and mind. It's difficult to speak for other people, even the OM. Maybe you should ask someone who has been an OM exactly what he was thinking during his A.

W1, autumn day,

"I see WW�s not responding to my opinion of OM. This shows to me that the WW is still protecting the OM. "

You are restating what you have said. You have yet to attack or think poorly of the OM. Which to me is WW's still protect their OM even after they were left holding the bag/OC by the OM.

I raised questions and speculated about the OM. WW response has been about what they themselves did and felt. No complaint on what has been said. Complaint on what has not been said. No comment on what I had to say about the OM.

WW�s do a good job of being hard on themselves, sometimes too good, but not on their OM.

I think we are hard on ourselves because we have an honest desire to take responsibility for our own actions. We are not looking to blame the OM for what we did. Both the OM and I made mistakes and acted irresponsibly, but I can't do anything about the choices that he made. I can only work on myself, so that's where my focus is.

What good would it do me to publicly attack the OM? It would only look as though I were trying to deflect my own mistakes onto him. He owns his mistakes and I own mine. He didn't force me to do anything. I made my own decisions, and I am trying to own up to that.

Do I have feelings about the decisions that he made? Of course. But that's not where my focus is. I can't do anything about what he does or does not decide to do. I only have control over me. I don't think that's "protecting" the OM. It is just choosing not to focus on those things over which I have no control.

Good!
Most of them deserve far, far worse!

Honestly, I don't CARE enough about OM to sit around bashing him or proving to others that I think he is bad. Yes, he was a jerk. But the few times I have ever alluded to his shortcomings, I have had people give me the "don't blame OM for your choices" talk. You really can't win. You hate the OM, you're shifting blame, or maybe it's because you secretly can't get over him. You're indifferent, and it's because you can't see the bad in him. I thought the point was that I need to own MY choices.

I'm not a WW or a former WW, but neither are you.

OK, I'll discuss ... briefly ... then I will drop it.

One time, when Mrs Wondering was brand spankin' new to the forum, she posted (boasted) how she got OM to reveal "his true colors" when she called OM on the phone

a-f-t-e-r

the affair had already ended.

We lambasted her (myself primarily, but I had help) for thinking OM's "true colors" were any worse than HER "true colors".

Any time spent bashing OM is time not spent praising their husbands and meeting the ENs of their husbands and improving their own "true colors".

I think this is a bogus question and pulls the FWWs back into stinkin' thinkin' OM land.

Don't go there ladies.

One more thing. A Harley quote.

In the interest of MARRIAGE BUILDING




GETTING THROUGH SYMPTOMS OF WITHDRAWAL does NOT include re-hashing OM's inventory.

Asking FWWs to explore their feeling about OM is not helpful to their recovery.

Asking FWWs to work the MB plans IS helpful to their marriage recovery.

Which is why we're all here, right?

I don't understand why TheRoad wants the FWW's to focus on FOM. NC, withdrawal and recovery involve not focusing on him at all. Rebuilding and showing love, care and protection for the BH involve putting FOM out of mind. I applaud the FWW here for focusing on their BHs and not FOM.

Why are you trying to make them focus on FOM, TheRoad?

... and why not focus on MARRIAGE BUILDING ???

Which is the purpose of this forum.

Ladies, beware of any directional pull away from marriage building. It's a distraction at best, and a danger to your recovery at worst.

:MerryChristmas:

Of course, that should read "care' not "acre' in Pep's quote from me!

I ain't changing it!

Really Gack,

They deserve far far worse while the WW (and in this case who intentionally got pregnant while cheating ) deserve an intact family and to keep the child.

Sometimes, as a divorced BH with sole custody, the level of hatred of men on this site really gets me down.

... and why not focus on MARRIAGE BUILDING ???

Which is the purpose of this forum.

Thank you Pep.

That's what MOST of us are trying to do.

In my opinion, wich is tainted by my experiance....... Yes, Really!

Really 6 years?

Is there REALLY an instance in this whole mess where everyone involved gets what they DESERVE???

DESERVE?

Where in the world does anyone ever get what they DESERVE???

I can name one instance where it's guaran-daym-teed, but I'm not ready for the Great Walk yet.

And hatred of MEN?

How about loathing of INFIDELITY? That's what I see here.

Please, feel free to use this comment:

.. and why not focus on MARRIAGE BUILDING ???

Which is the purpose of this forum.

.... instead of being drawn into any foolish arguments.

Dealan-de,

This thread in particular dismisses the rights of the bio dads. Some even suggesting lying on the birth certificate.

I reacted to the use the deserve word because in my opinion NONE of the waywards get what they actually deserve nor do the betrayed.

My H's name is on our daughter's birth certificate. Legally, he is her father. When a child is adopted, the birth certificate is changed to reflect the adoptive parents as the child's legal parents. Is that lying too?

Keep up with the MARRIAGE BUILDING efforts Writer.

Remember when you first thought I was the enemy on MB ?

I may be older and more "blunt" than many, but like I said:

"Trust me, I am NOT your enemy."

Marriage Building.
Marriage Building.
Marriage Building.
Marriage Building.

Okay, I think I got it.

And I never thought you were the enemy, Pep. I vehemently deny that charge.

Speaking of marriage building, my H and are going away tomorrow to celebrate our anniversary. I'm so excited! It'll be our first night alone together since the baby was born. We're driving up to Solvang, which is about 3 hours away.

While you're on the 101, and passing Sherman Oaks, wave to me!

H and I love Solvang (who doesn't?)

And have a sexy time among the Danish!

Pep, I didn't know you were a So-Cal person too. Small world.

I'll think of you as we pass through Sherman Oaks.

My H and I have been going up to Solvang for our anniversary for years. Either there, or Catalina Island.

Definitely looking forward to cavorting with those wild Danish.

No one ON EARTH ever gets what they TRULY deserve...ever. To hope for it or yearn for it is a lesson in futility.

And in this particular situation the ONLY thing anyone can do when faced with it is to make a decision that has the least amount of nuclear fallout and radiation disease for all involved.

Everyone in this situation gets a slice of the hurt pie...every person from the OCs to the COMs to the betrayed to the waywards...the only thing the adults can do is try to make sure the portions are minimized for the children.

writer:

wassup

hope your weekend away is good - spouses definitely need time away from the kids.

These forums are funny. Some people are angry. Some people are sad. Some can move on. Some can't. Some are wise. Some are, well, not wise.

You, well, you're just a cool head. You get beat up a lot here but you handle it with grace and come out of it with your head held high. Yeah, you f'd up big time but you acknowledge it and also acknowledge how lucky you are to have a husband that took your sorry butt back

I appreciate the help you gave me. Probably won't work out like your sitch did, but that's life.

Take it easy and stay positive. The mansion that awaits you is a good one.

The trip was very nice. Short, but nice. The baby did great while we were gone. We did some shopping, hiked to Nojoqui Falls and had a picnic, drove around and looked at all the Christmas lights. We went to this little Italian place for dinner and I had the most amazing spinach and cheese ravioli in brown butter sauce. Oh, I will never think of pasta in the same way again.

Pep: I waved to you as we passed through Sherman Oaks.

InD: I've encountered all sorts of people on this site. It has been an invaluable source of support and information, but I figured out a long time ago that there's simply no way to please all of the people all of the time. I don't even try anymore. My H and I have found what works for us and we're happy with it, so I think that's what's important. I know not everyone will agree with how we're handling the situation, but that would be true no matter what I did. I don't mind hearing differing opinions. It's kind of interesting, in fact. And it probably helps that I'm just a tad sado-masochistic.

InD, it sounds like you're doing better. I know things will work out for you, one way or the other. They always say, that which doesn't kill us only makes us stronger. Who is this "they" anyway? I'd like to punch them sometimes.

Hang in there and have a good Christmas!

Vent time. Warning, this could get long. I don't even care if I get 2 by 4'd. I just need to get all of this out, because right now it has nowhere to go and it's festering like a latent infection.

Here are the two issues: Finances and Internet Porn/Lying. These are the two things that are tearing up my M right now, and I don't know what to do about them.

Finances: We are living in a financial hole the size of the Grand Canyon right now. By all estimates, we are around $275,000 in debt right now, which is approximately 6.5 times my H's annual salary. Our debts include an upside down mortgage, massive student loans, and credit cards. Our expenses far exceed our take-home pay, and even coming up with enough $ to buy groceries is a major challenge. We've been going to the food bank through our church, which helps some, but it doesn't cover everything. There are times when there isn't even enough to buy the baby's diapers.

I take 90% of the responsibility for all of this because of our OC situation. There was no way we could afford to have another child. I was working as a substitute teacher when our OC was born, and I lost my job because my hours were very irregular and not dependable and I couldn't find childcare with enough flexibility to allow me to continue subbing and there was no family nearby that could help out with that. The sub jobs were few and far between anyway because of the terrible budget problems in CA and the cuts to education. I haven't worked since June 08. I have been looking for a job for a year now, but the unemployment rate in my area is atrocious and keeps getting worse. You literally can't find a minimum wage position flipping burgers at McDonald's around here anymore.

This is taking a huge toll on our entire family. It seems all my H and I ever do anymore is fight about money. I don't remember the last conversation we had that didn't have something to do with money. My H's biggest beef is that I don't want to sit down and talk about finances with him. I admit that having a root canal without anesthesia sounds more pleasant. Every time we talk about money, we end up yelling and the LB's start flying like mad.

I do want to figure out our finances, but I don't know where to start. My H has all of our bills set up to be managed online. I don't know the websites or passwords or account numbers or anything. I've asked him for these, and he has said he will get them to me, but it never happens. Then, I get yelled at when we run out of money or something bounces because I'm not helping him figure things out. How can I figure things out when I don't have any of the necessary information. I'm pretty sure he has credit cards in his name only that I don't know anything about (other than my suspicions that they exist, of course).

I am so frustrated. As soon as my H gets a paycheck, he starts sending all of the money to our bills and then there's nothing left. We go to the store and try to buy some groceries and our bank card won't go through. The credit cards are maxed out. The savings account has been empty for a long time.

I know my H wants to support our family without any help from anyone, but it just isn't happening and it's taking a huge toll on our relationship and literally every aspect of our lives. I feel like a complete failure and loser because I can't find a job. I've had a few close calls, but ultimately, I didn't get the positions, some of which only required a high school diploma (I have a master's degree!). It is unbelievably frustrating.

Internet Porn/Lying: We had a big fight the other night about this that lasted until 4 a.m., all because I had some unanswered questions about my H's past actions. I just found out about all of this last January, so long after our OC was born and my H had supposedly committed himself to the M and to being O&H. At the time, I was overwhelmed with having a new baby in the house again and getting next to no sleep and we just did what we'd always done when he dropped the bomb - we fought about it for awhile and then swept it under the rug.

But the issue kept haunting me, so I brought it up. And my H got steaming mad! He says I'm always bringing up his past mistakes and throwing them in his face and not letting him forget about them. For him, this all happened a long time ago (6 years now) and he just wants to forget about it and move on. But I only found out about it less than a year ago, and I don't feel like I ever got all of the answers I was looking for.

I guess I'm trying to make sense of my H's actions, but they don't make sense to me. He admitted to a lot of very despicable things. The day after our big fight, he told me about one of the websites he frequented, so I checked it out. It was absolutely disgusting! It was specifically geared towards gays, lesbians, and bestiality and the stories on there were things no sane person should ever have to hear. My H also admitted to engaging in internet sex with multiple strangers - both women and men - on numerous sites. He even admitted to reading stories involving sex acts with teenagers.

I don't know how to come to terms with all of this. I freely admit I am no saint, but my A at least didn't involve anything weird or abnormal, like the stuff my H was apparently involved in. He says that he was just reading the stories and that he would never actually want to do any of the things that he was reading about. He also says that he didn't consider the internet sex to be real sex since there was no actual physical contact. But there was still a real person out there that he was doing these things with, whether he could see them or not. I don't see how that doesn't count.

I feel like these are just some of the issues (the 2 major ones) that are really standing in the way of R our M. It just seems like there's a huge distance between my H and I these days, and I don't have any idea how to bridge to gap. I do love him, but I don't feel remotely close to him. I don't trust him. I keep waiting for that next bomb, wondering what else he hasn't told me. It seems there's always something else, something he doesn't "remember" for months or even years at a time, which then gets dropped on me out of left field once his memories start to resurface, or whatever it is that they do.

Is there any hope that my H and I can have a normal, close, intimate relationship after everything that we have been through? Sometimes, trying to fix this M feels so much like beating a dead horse.

If you got this far, thank you for listening. I've been feeling so hopeless and depressed the past few days. I think I've lost even the smallest pinprick of that light at the end of the tunnel.

If I read this correctly, your H had a porn problem , and does not go there anymore. Correct?

If this is correct, what the heck are you doing bringing it to the foreground, and then ...

Quote

We had a big fight the other night about this that lasted until 4 a.m.

You handled that badly IMO.

I think the problem is in the past. As far as I know, it is. But we haven't really talked about it much since he confessed all of this. I feel like there are a lot of things I still don't know, and how can I find out if I don't ask?

I think what really bugs me is that, after my A, when we both decided to come back together and really work on our M, I specifically asked my H if there was anything else that he wasn't telling me. I wanted to get everything out in the open so that we could deal with it and really try to make our M stronger. He insisted that he'd told me everything, but then, a year later, he dumps all the porn/internet sex stuff on me. Prior to that, I only knew about the EA with the ex-girlfriend.

I didn't want to fight until 4 a.m. In fact, I tried to stop it a number of times, but he was really worked up and yelling and angry. I really just wanted some of my questions answered. It wasn't particularly late when I brought the subject up, but it was darn late when it finally ended.

So, if I can't bring anything up and I don't know the whole story and I've been lied to literally hundreds of times in the past by this man, then how can I ever have any answers? How can I possibly know if I finally have all of the truth? In the past, I have believed with every fiber of my being that my H was finally being honest with me, only to get slapped in the face with something new over and over again.

are both of you reading? there are times to be set aside to answer questions that still need answered. Be careful for how much you want to know. Did you really need to go look at the site and read there? or does just knowing that he had porn site interactions fill your mind with enough difficulties? Some of us need more answers, some of us cannot have that much information and continue to move forward.

You need to come to an agreement on how to manage your finances. O & H on both sides, so that you both know what is coming in and going out. How much can be spent on food, utilities, other necessities.

Take a deep breath.

Fled

Fled: I've always been a detail person. I need to know what I'm dealing with so that I can process it and understand it. Sometimes, I wish I didn't need to know every little thing, but the things I don't know bug me and scratch at the back of my mind and refuse to go away.

I didn't really read anything on the site. I just looked at the list of topics. Those were disturbing enough. There wasn't a single "normal" topic on there. What it did do was make me question my H's sexuality. This was definitely a site for "alternative lifestyles." I suspect some of them aren't even legal.

I don't necessarily "want" to know all of this stuff, but maybe it's something I need to know. I'm raising kids with this person, after all. I can't afford to stick my head in the sand and pretend this doesn't exist. He was accessing these sites on the family computer that my kids used. It makes me wonder what they've seen and been exposed to.

"""""""I've been feeling so hopeless and depressed"""""""

I know the feeling well and i am usually a pretty upbeat guy.

as far as the finances go living here in ca especially with the downturn in housing has really sucked our bank accounts dry.

my w and i are both working weekends and nights whenever possible to try and stay afloat.

here's a tip on the easiest extra income on the planet if you are interested. look into becoming a girls lacrosse referee at the high school level.

don't just say no way until you read thru this part. lacrose is the fastest growing hs sport in the country. and it is growing rapidly especially in so cal. they are so short of referees that they are taking all comers.

you will need to attend an 8 hour class, spend a day getting rated by refing a game or 2 (usually at a tournement like at the rose bowl coming up in march).

now here's the best part. tournaments pay $1 per minute playing time. a game has 2 25 minute halves with a 10 minute half time (1/2 can be shorter if coach's agree before game). that's $50 an hour. but it gets better

you usually ref a varsity and jv game back to back in the evennings. when you do this you get paid $117 for the 2 games. yep it's more for none tournament games. the 2 games take an average of max 2.45 - 3 hours counting time between games and about a 15 minute show up before the 1st game.

work 3 evennings a week from say 4:45 to 7:30'ish and take home $350 extra a week. but it gets better

since the sport is so new the parents and spectators don't know the rules so there is NO ONE screaming nasty's at the ref's.

i coach the sport and will be refing at every available opportunity. i even had my kids get certified because they are having a hard time finding jobs in this pi$$y economy.

on the internet porn stuff.. i just don't get it. maybe i'm just to nerdy, i don't know. but i just can't get into that stuff. i checked some out years ago and it is just boring to me.

i guess i always would rather have a girl i can touch then who knows who or what is on the other end of a blind line.

Pops: Does it matter if I have no idea what lacrosse even is? It sounds intriguing, but I'm about the least athletically inclined person you're ever likely to meet. Where could I go to get more info about it?

I don't understand the porn thing either. Maybe I'm naive, but I didn't even know sites existed where you could go to have virtual sex with strangers. My H had to do a great deal of explaining before I could even figure out what was involved in the logistics of that.

You stop talking and the fight stops.



Somehow the "just" seems like you are slanting this towards making yourself look good.

Heres a suggestion.

Write your questions down.
Set a limit (POJA with H) on how many questions you can ask in any given 24 hour period. Say, 5 questions a day. And H gets the same amount.

H writes out his answers and you write out yours, and neither of you are allowed to ask any more questions for a day.



I have a question. To what purpose are your questions going?

Do you want "answers" or do you want to build trust and love?

Is it marriage building? Make sure it is.


Seems to me, brainstorming how to get our of debt would be a better use of your time together.

Rear view mirrors are OK for an occasional glance, but if you keep your gaze there too long, you will crash.

This is Harley's:

After a night of lovebusting each other, you are both battered and brused. BOTH of you hurt each other.

Pep is doing famously on the MB area, here is a little help with the groceries:

Angel Food Ministries

They are a GODsend!

Absolutely Dealan,

You can find out everything you need about LaCrosse right here on the internet. At least a starting point. What a great tip Pops.

Writer, I am not full of wisdom today (or any day???), but I am sorry y'all (yes I said y'all) are having such a hard time.

I cannot think of another issue that puts me on or over the edge like money problems. It magnifies everything. I think that is because I can control some other things, but I cannot make money appear from the sky or remove debt in one fell swoop. There is nothing like knwing it's only the 15th, and there is literally no money anywhere, so I can empathize. Are there any debt companies or aids that might help you? People poo-poo that stuff, but several years ago ours just became overwhelming, so we did the debt counseling thing. We sent one check to them instead of getting 400 phone calls, and our debt was gone in 5 years. Of course, we have some more now, but not as much. Angel Food really is a great program, so that may help too.

I don't share this much because I - well - honestly, I fear it getting all mixed up in other stuff. But around 12 or so years ago, my H had a brief "stint" with porn. I found out by walking in the room when he didn't know I was there, and I felt completely crushed. He felt terrible and apologized and installed a net nanny. I asked a few questions, but could tell he didn't want to talk about it. I'm still not sure of all he looked or did. I am quite sure that there was at least one view where men were involved, but I don't think it was an identity thing. I think it was a sheltered curiosity kind of thing. It's like some things are so fascintaingly awful sounding, there's a morbid curiosity about it. And with everything so easy to find on the internet....

Now, I haven't had too many problems not knowing everything. But with my A, H really needed to know everything. Heis a detail person like you. But I couldn't bear saying some of it out loud. So we did the "write it down" thing. I wrote down what he needed to know, he clarified, then he tossed what I had written. I was amazed by how this helped him. He knew what he needed to know, and he literally never mentioned that part of it again.

If you know that you know that you really need to know these things and it is not just a reaction to all the other stress magnifying it, then it may be worth pursuing. But Pep is right about the past too. That is something I am still learning about myself. Sometimes I have to ask myself, am I dwellig on this because good will come of it, or because I feel some twisted obligation to bang myself on the head?

Thank you everyone. I deeply appreciate all of the support and the advice. I think most of our stress right now stems from the money issues. I know we need to make some changes and take some steps to start figuring this out. I keep telling myself to be grateful that my H still has a job while so many others do not, and I am grateful for that. But it's still hard when the bill collectors keep calling and I don't have anything more to offer them and I need to go to the store and there isn't enough money for groceries. I will check out the Angel Ministries. We are also looking into credit counseling. We may ultimately have to file for bankruptcy, but I am hoping to avoid that if at all possible.

I think I'm also going a little stir crazy sitting around the house all day. I haven't been a SAHM for a good number of years, and while I love spending time with the baby, I think I need that time away where I do some grownup stuff as well. I don't even all that guilty at the thought of putting her in daycare, since she gets bored here all day when it's just me and her. I think she's getting to the age where she would enjoy the opportunity to interact with other kids her age. She loves kids. So, I'm going to step up my job search. I know it won't be easy with the economy the way it is around here, but my H is looking for opportunities in other states, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he'll find something somewhere with more opportunities for me as well. We've been itching to get out of CA for a long time now, and this summer, after our 17 year old graduates, would be a good time to make a move.

I know it's time to let go of the internet porn stuff. I just found it so shocking, because stuff like that is simply not like my H at all. In most ways, he's the most straight-laced guy you would ever want to meet. Think Richie Cunningham on "Happy Days." He's the kind of guy who just has to stop and help out whenever he sees a car broken down on the side of the road. So, something like that seems so out of character for him. And I do honestly believe that he has put that stuff in the past. I am interested in the net nanny, though. It certainly wouldn't hurt to block that kind of stuff completely, especially with two teenage boys in the house. What is it and where can I find one?

I'm feeling better today. Sometimes, it just helps to get it all out. Right now, it feels like we'll be buried under all this debt forever, but there has to be a way out. I just have to keep reminding myself that this too will come to pass.

http://www.daveramsey.com/
http://www.daveramsey.com/store/Books/dave-s-bestsellers/The-Total-Money-Makeover/prod326.html
http://www.daveramsey.com/radio/home/

http://www.amazon.com/48-Days-Work-You-Love/dp/0805431888

I will second the help you can give yourself with Dave Ramsey. Even if you aren't in complete dire straits it will improve your finances.

Awesome program if you can find one, easy to do on your own if you can't.

Fled

I'll be looking for that 48 days book. This is possibly my last year as a music teacher, and I need a new direction. Thanks!

Thanks for the links Gack. My H actually had that book at one time. He isn't sure if he still has it, but if he can't find it, I'm going to reorder it. It looks very interesting.

I am somewhat familiar with Dave Ramsey, but obviously not nearly enough. I will check out his program as well.

I want to find that 48 days book. It sounds good.

Writer1, maybe you and I should have some kind of prayer pact. You need a career and I need a new career. We could pray each other into dream jobs!

Lurioosi: That sounds good to me. I have been keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. I have a feeling 2010 is going to be a much better year all around. I am feeling much more hopeful today. Overwhelmed, but hopeful.

2010 WILL be better. Except that my kids are going to both be true adolescents this year. Got an exra room, anyone? J/K...for now.

My Mom gave me this book last Christmas called Get Out of That Pit. It's by a Christian author, and though I don't jive theologically with everything she wrote, it did have some really encouragingstuff in it. It might be a good feel good read, when your cutie pie is taking a nap or something. Is it weird that I miss those days? If I found I was pregnant tomorrow, I would need a bag to breathe into, but I do miss babies

goggle up USLacrosse and follow the prompts for womens lacrosse. you can find the rules and other info

on the porn stuff, do you think your drive for details could stem from you wanting to have something to take some of the negative stigma of your recent A away from yourself?

another thought was maybe as in an A there may be no real answers to why he used it. and some details are just best left alone

Pops: I will look up the Lacrosse stuff.

I don't think my need for details has much to do with my own A, since I've always been this way, even long before my A.

It isn't the mere viewing of porn that bothered me so much. I think the part that bothered me the most was the fact that my H was actually engaging in sex acts with other nameless/faceless people on the internet. To me, there's a line in the sand there, and that crosses it. There just seems to be a huge difference between reading pornographic stories or looking at pictures, and actually talking/typing/whatever to someone about sexual acts while performing them on himself. Maybe I'm the only one who defines that difference, but to me at least, merely viewing porn isn't adultery, but actually engaging in sex with someone else over the internet or phone is. It just seems so sketchy and dirty. I mean, you have no way of knowing who's really on the other side of that keyboard that you're doing this stuff with. My H even admitted some of them could have been teenagers. How can you possibly know? It makes me kind of sick.

I do want to heal and move on from this. One of the problems in our relationship has been this insistence on my H's part that he's told me everything and stopped doing everything and I think we're in R and moving on, but then bam, he'll drop another bomb and I'll find out about something else that he either a) didn't tell me about from the past, or b) never actually stopped doing, and we're right back to square one. So, right now, trust is a big issue for me.

i understand what you are saying. wish i could be more help from the mans viewpoint but like i said i just don't get the sex with a keyboard/phone thing.

i agree that there is a definate line there

viewing to me also is not necessarily adultry. i do think that it depends on what you are viewing. then again i don't get why anyone would want to view some of the wacky (sorry for the pun) stuff out there

Writer1,



I would guess that this stuff was very strange to him as well, thus the curiosity. It is also why he could stop it.

Your feelings about porn are not wrong. But, the real issue is the financial thing right now. Please understand that your H is not responsible for some of the expenses right now, you and your A are. However, he has agreed to take this on and may really feel like he is failing you.

I have several recommendations. The first is listen to Pops especially about the refereeing thing. Sports are nothing if about rules and you can learn them as well as anyone. Second realize that women's lacross is very different from men's lacross so when you read the site Pop's gave you, pay attention to the women's part.

Next, consider this. Often schools have Lacross teams and that means you may come in contact with a school looking for a teacher or who may know of a school that is. If you are having continued contact with kids and refereeing their games is just the sort of contact most would find appropriate, then you become a more viable candidate.

So not only do you receive money for this, you are in a position to make contacts where they may really benefit you.

As for the finances, let me recommend that you take Pep's and others suggestion and write down a few things before you talk.

1. What are the passwords and how do I access the financial information?

2. What are our goals?

3. what are our plans for meeting those goals?

4. Let me take a crack at a plan and see what you think. Do you think that makes sense?

5. WE are in debt. WE spend the money. WE need to solve this problem. Therefore, doesn't make sense for US to sit on the same side of the table and figure out what to do?

Start with those questions written down and give them to your H. When he answers them, then write out another set of questions.

1. When can we meet?

2. What should be the first thing for us to examine?

3. What are your thoughts on where we can cut back or save money?

4. How can I help?

Are you getting a trend here? You two are a team, reffing games will definitely teach you about teams. You two need to work together, and that starts out by setting the rules, the goals, and the timeline.

Please think about this.

JL

Is there something nagging you that maybe your husband has taken his predilections underground and is still secretly participating? If it was "just a stage," that's understandable, but if he truly is bisexual and into fetishes, etc., then you might want to know more truths.
The money sitch sucks. I'm living it, too. You have lots of company there.

I'm still weighing my options, trying to figure out what I want to do when I grow up. I'm looking at ways to earn a little extra money now (short-term) and also trying to find something I might want to spend the rest of my life doing (long-term). I'm considering going back to school, looking at either a Master's Degree in Library Science or a PhD in English/Creative Writing. Not sure if I would be more suited for work as a librarian or a professor. The PhD thing kind of scares me, since most of the programs are 5 years long and the thought of a dissertation is daunting, but there would be funding for many of the programs (if I could get in - it is highly competitive) and I could teach and earn some money while going to school. The library program is quicker and not as scary, but it would cost about $20,000. Personality-wise, I think I would be more suited for library work. I do have teaching experience, but it wasn't highly enjoyable for me. Of course, I was subbing at a high school - probably very different than teaching college.

I guess the big question is, can I afford to dedicate more time/money to going to school? And then, can I afford not to? My current degrees aren't likely to lead to much gainful employment, unfortunately, and I don't want to find myself working retail, managing a store or something and working terrible hours for mediocre pay, or adjunct teaching for even worse pay, for the rest of my life.

I've ordered the book Gack recommended and am waiting for it to arrive. Maybe that will help.

Imanotherone: I don't think my H is still involved in any of that. I have no reason to believe that he is, so I'm hoping it was just a passing phase. He says he has no desire to do anything like that ever again. But, there aren't any blocks on our computer and I don't really know how to check for any of that stuff, so I can't be 100%. I do have access to his email, and I haven't seen anything weird on there in a long time.

Time is running out, choose a path and follow it.


At this stage in the game, if you are going to go back to school you should choose an area of study that has a needed application in the workforce.

For example

Masters in English/Creative Writing = Well, other than Librarian or teacher I don't know what career this lines you up for. You don't need a degree to be a published author, so it doesn't really affect that.

Masters in Civil Engineering = You would be qualified to work for any engineering firm, construction consulting firm, high end large scale landscaping company, conceptual design firm, environmental consulting firm, or even a large construction/grading firm.

I am not saying go to school to be an engineer, I am saying at this point go to school to get a degree in a field that WILL lead to a definant career. Don't just go get another open ended degree.


As long as it leads to a career, YES!

1. Then why did you get them?
2. What are they?

I know a store manager for a large chain supermarket in my town. He was hired on as the store manager, he has a law degree (Masters I think) but had no experience running a supermarket. They hired him simply because he had a degree and applied for the job. They trained him at their regional headquarters and then gave him his own store.

Starting salary = $100,000

That's in an area where the cost of living is very low. $150,000 here will get you a 3-bedroom/2.5 bath/2-car garage house on a 1/2 acre lot.

He works 5 days a week Monday-Friday, 8:00-5:00
However, he is On-Call the entire time the store is open, and does get called in a few times a month.

He has been doing this for 5yrs and last time I spoke to him he still enjoyed it better than being a Lawyer.


Just saying, some retail management jobs can be good, and a degree, even in something completely unrelated, will help land such a job.

Currently, I have a BA in English and an MFA in Creative Writing.

I got the MFA because my writing wasn't going where I wanted it to go, and I knew I needed some help. My writing has greatly improved and, if I publish widely enough, I will be able to use the MFA to teach creative writing at the university level. It was a dream and I followed it. When I started the program, I owned a house with $150,000 in equity. It was our intention to sell the home, pay off my student loans, relocate to a cheaper area, and buy another house. Then, the housing market crashed and now my mortgage is upside down, even though I've owned my house for nearly a decade.

The Master's Degree in Library Science would allow me to get a job as a librarian. The PhD in English/Creative Writing would allow me to get a tenure job teaching at a university. So, those degrees would prepare me for specific employment. They may not be in the hottest fields, but I have no talent or experience for many of those "hot" field jobs. I love science, but my math skills suck, so anything in any field that requires math is out. I kind of have to work within my area of knowledge and interest. I don't want to bang my head trying to earn a degree I'm not good at or working a job for the next 30 years that I don't like.

Retail management is all over the place. Your friend sounds like they got quite lucky at that supermarket. I applied and interviewed for a management position at Barnes & Noble a few years ago. The job started at $26,000 a year and the store manager said that most of his managers worked a minimum of 65 hours a week, including evenings (until 12 a.m.) and weekends. That's just not the way I see myself spending the rest of my life.

How long till your first day of employment?
What is the starting sallory?
Whats the cost of living in your area, Lowe-Mediam-High.
Low being rural/cental Alabama.
High being Loss Angeles or New York City.


Same questions as above.
How long till your first day of employment?
What is the starting sallory?
Whats the cost of living in your area, Lowe-Mediam-High.
Low being rural/cental Alabama.
High being Loss Angeles or New York City.

Wait...........
Didn't you say you had nursing experiance?
R.N's make a killing and are in very high demand (Atleast in this area)

Yes, but what does HE make?
How much does HE work?

The idea would be to be hired on as, or within a few years become "The" store manager.

Gack: The store managers at B&N work even longer hours. They make a lot of money, but they're on call 24/7. They also have a lot of stress from the area management - i.e. if your store isn't making enough money, it's your fault, and you're in constant danger of being fired. I worked at B&N as a bookseller and the store managers were a very stressed lot. I've heard similar stories from other retail management environments.

Librarian: Program is a minimum of 2 years (full time). Starting salary - $40,000 - $50,000. I live in a very high cost area (So-Cal) but I don't plan on staying here and my H definitely wants to relocate too.

PhD: Program is anywhere from 3-5 years, full time, but I would in all likelihood be teaching undergrad classes while going to school, so earning some money in the meantime (probably only around $10,000). Starting salary after graduation would be around $50,000.

I did go to nursing school right out of high school, but I never finished. I was trying to go to school while being a single parent and the stress was just too much. When I married my H, I quit. I was so far behind, I wasn't going to graduate anyway. That was 16 years ago. I would have to start over from scratch, since it's been so long. None of my credits would carry over, and I've forgotten everything anyway. It kind of gives me hives even thinking about it, since it was such a terrible experience for me the first time around.

My H is finishing his PhD in May. Before that he did a masters. The entire time he has been in school, he has been a GTA. Now, except for the two years he was able to GTA full time, the pay was kind of stinky, but here's the caveat - ALL tuition has been paid. We never paid for one hour of classes. So if you can GTA, that helps alot. Now, his PhD is in music education. Not a lot of Music jobs right now. So that's a down side. But he spent quite a few years in a career that just about wore him down to an emotional nub. So as long as he is working full time, I can live with him not getting us rich. So if you do go back to school, that might be something to look at. Also, if you get a libray/media degree, you can also work in public schools, which usually pay more than a public library.

I definitely understand what Gack is saying. Some of my friends decided to get a straight music degree instead of music ed. What were they going to do with that??? Yeah, they loved music, but there is nothing you can really do with a voice degree, except sing really well while you manage the Gap. ha ha. So it is important to get something marketable. But, if you hate what you do, it's going to be a long 20 years or so before retirment.

I'll be praying for you. Life-changing decisions "at our age" can be scary.

Writer-have you tried doing individual tutoring? In your area, there must be a high demand from well-to-do's.
To break in, try getting a job at someplace like Huntington Learning Center or the like, or an SAT prep course. Show folks how smart you are on the Language Arts side, and folks will be lining up hoping to get the edge in the placement tests.
It's hourly work for start, but 20 years ago I did it and it paid $12 an hour back then. Can only imagine what has happened with inflation.
Good luck!

I have friends who tutor, and they charge 25.00 an hour, and this is in Auburn, AL. I bet in a bigger area it's even more. This may make you cringe depending on the age kid you enjoy, but if you took a workshop on the teaching of reading so you could be familiar with how younger students learn to read, you could do A LOT. Reading and math are big deals right now at the elementary level. That's pretty much what most standardized testing focuses on. And 9 year olds really aren't scary, not near as scary as 15 year olds!!

I am actually looking into tutoring. Unfortunately, I don't live in the area of So-Cal where there are a lot well-to-do people. I live far inland from the ocean and smack dab in the middle between San Diego and L.A. It's about 80 miles either way to get to a major city. My area is still considered pretty rural (by CA standards anyway). There's probably a huge demand for teaching people to read English out here, since the area is largely Hispanic, but I don't know if there would be much money in that. I am checking out tutoring though. There may be something. Everything is just so spread out around here and much of the tutoring I've found requires driving to people's homes and my van is on it's last leg, I'm afraid.

If I could get into a PhD in Creative Writing program, the tuition probably would be free and I would be able to teach as well. But there are only about 25 programs in the entire country, and each one admits 2-5 new PhD candidates a year, so it's a long shot. The Master's in Library Science program would be much easier to get into, but I would have to pay for that one. There are no universities nearby that offer it, so I would have to do an online program.

Sounds like your passion is in the PhD, but maybe hold off until the $$ situation stabilizes? I'd have to guess there are still some well-off folks in that area. Used to live in San Diego, and I remember the northern migration going on back then.
Again, teaching english as a second language would be good work, but the real cash is in private tutoring. Sad to say, the rich get special treatment, and they're willing to pay for the advantage!

Hey writer1, how's it going?

I'm doing okay. I had a bad day yesterday (I can hear that American Idol theme song from a few seasons back playing in my head right now). I was just feeling generally worthless and useless and hopeless. I need fewer "lesses" in my life, I suppose. Trying to pick myself back up today and brush myself off. I woke up at 5 a.m. this morning to go to the bathroom (TMI, I know) and got back into bed and was suddenly consumed by the realization that I would be turning 40 in a year and a half and what did I have to show for it? I mean, I was literally worried sick, going over and over again about how I've never had a full time job with benefits, never had a novel published yet, blah, blah, blah. But I finally got back to sleep and the sun is out here in eternally sunny So-Cal and it is a new day. I'm not dead and buried yet, so I guess there's still time to turn things around.

40 is WONDERFUL...

It's MUCH better than your 30s.

Trust.

Wow

I could not fathom such an existence. I have been gainfully employed full time since I was 18.
(Knock on wood)
Even when going to school full time as well.

As a published author, I must ask, why not?

(Granted I was not paid and it was an article in an automotive enthusiast magazine, but still..... I'm a published author!)


Seriously though, why have you not gotten a novel published.

And since you have not, perhaps it's time to try somthing else?
(May I suggest underwater basket weaving........ I'm kidding)

Dealan-de: I certainly hope so.

Gack: I guess I was just too busy raising 5 kids to work full time and go to school. I did nursing school full time while working part time and raising three kids on my own, and that about killed me.

I think I'm close with the novel. I think it's about finished and I should be ready to send it out into the world soon. I'm aiming for this spring. Having a new baby in the house set me back about a year. It's still hard to find time to write with a little one around, but I'm doing my best.

And trust me, publishing an article and publishing a novel are very different animals indeed. My novel is currently 350 pages long. The short stories I write are probably closer to the article (15-20) pages, but there isn't any money there.

I have considered underwater basket weaving. It sounds intriguing. Now, if only I could learn to swim...

writer1 please consider that it can be very difficult to get a tenure track university appointment ESEPECIALLY in a field like English. Are you and your family willing to relocate ANYWHERE that offers you a job?

Many PhDs wind up on continuing term positions that offer crap pay. Even if you do get hired, you then get into the nightmare of actually getting tenure, which given your age is unlike to be before your 50s.

kerala: All very true. Which is why I'm leaning toward the Master's in Library Science degree. The job market is still tight, but library positions seem far more plentiful than tenure-track teaching positions at universities. Plus, I'm not big on having 100's of papers to grade either.

My original plans were to get my teaching credential after my MFA and teach high school. Those plans got derailed when my state (CA) suffered a massive budget nightmare and decided to take it out on public education. I don't even know how many 1000's of teachers were laid off in CA last year, and this year isn't looking much better. I actually don't want to stay in CA, but teaching credentials are state-specific, so it's very hard to prepare to teach in one state while living in another. And, I don't know how education jobs are doing in other states. I just know it's terrible here and likely to get worse.

The library degree I'm looking at is entirely online, so I could do it here at home. I would probably have to relocate to get a librarian job as well, but since I HATE where I live right now, that is more than perfectly fine with me.

That sounds great writer1. I apologize if my message came off as too negative.

A huge benefit to the librarian credentials is that you have many more employment opportunities, of course.

I've been reading your thread for a while, and I hope things go well for you.

kerala: Thanks. I didn't think your post sounded negative, just realistic. I'm trying to find an area that interests me and matches my talents and abilities and will still help pay the bills. I guess that's a challenge we all face.

You're never too old till you're cold! That's all I've got.

Amen to that!!!

Again, Amen!
I am now 41 (as of today) and I am pregnant with my 2nd biological child. When my baby is born, I will be Mom to 4 kids!

Life is MUCH better after 40!!! LOL

Writer, if you need someone to......approve your manuscript, I know this music teacher who would LOVE to read it

You're right about a novel. It's like a whole other universe. There is self-publishing....if you have a few thousand dollars lying around (I don't!) But since you are an English person, you probably have the same skepticism about that as I do. But keep writing, keep sending, over and over. It can happen.

Full time school + Full time work + 3 kids, yea that would be tuff.

However, full time School, then full time job + 3 kids is do-able.

Look, here is the thing.
I am probably letting my personnel experience with other people cloud my opinion. I know several people who sound just like you, that�s not to say you and they are the same, it's just what I am reading from you reminds me of the things they say.

Understand, I am not trying to upset or insult you. I just want you to think about a good career/job and reaching for attainable goals. It would be a shame for you to reach 60, and feel the same way about your life.

I hope it's a smash hit. Makes the NY Times #1 best seller for 2 years running and earns you MILLIONS, and leads to more books that make you the most famous author ever!!!


But


What if you cant get it published?
Or it fails to sell?

What then? What is your backup plan?

Bahhh

My article was 2 whole pages with 5 Full Color photographs of one of my own vehicles.


Unimportant!
For deep water you get SCUBA gear and a rope to climb back up to the boat. For shallow water (2 to 3 feet) you just use a snorkel and a mask, when you want out, just stand up.

Gack: Backup plan right now is looking like going for the Master's in Library Science, since backup plan #1, teaching high school, isn't looking so hot at the moment considering the amount of teacher layoffs I've read about and personally known in the past two years. I think I like the idea of working in a library more anyway. I have teaching experience, but it wasn't the most enjoyable thing I've ever done. Now, I realize that I have 5 kids, and I love them all dearly, but I'm not all that big on children in general, and I especially don't enjoy teenagers.

Teaching credential and Library Science degree take about the same amount of time to complete and cost about the same. The good thing about the library degree is that it would not be state specific, like a teaching credential would, so I could get a job just about anywhere.

Lurioosi: The novel isn't quite ready to show anyone yet, but I'll let you know when I get there. So far, only my MFA advisors have seen it. Well, my writing group has seen parts of it, but not the whole thing.

No, I don't think too highly of self-publishing and do not want to go that route. I've heard too many horror stories, and since, at any given time, I only have about $10 to my name, it wouldn't be an option anyway.

I'm doing it the old-fashioned way and searching for an agent. Wish me luck. I'm going to need it.

Make sure the editor is good. I got taken for a ride on that one. And mine will probably never be a best-seller. But I know more what to do now, so the sequel......

And I take comfort in this - J. K. Rowling wrote her first HP book on napkins, and Stephen King was rejected about 50 times before he published. And look at them! So if I write a novel about a possesed car that can cast spells I should be set!

Writer, how are things?

Also, have you ever thought about training for a job at a tech school? "Medical assistant" seems to be a hot one right now.

They're going. Not great, but they're going.

I was actually looking at a medical sonography program at my local community college, training to be an ultrasound tech. Problem is, the program is still going through the accreditation process, and I'm very reluctant to start a program that's not currently accredited, especially in a field that requires graduation from an accredited program in order to qualify for a license.

My area is pretty rural, and there aren't a lot of schools to choose from unless you want to drive great distances.

How about a mostly online program from an accredited university in a larger city?

It's difficult to find something in the medical field that's entirely online, due to the skills needed for the job. Medical assisting (front office only) might be a possibility because there are no real technical skills needed for that.

The Master's in Library Science program that I'm considering is entirely online.

Hi Writer,
It appears that thread got locked or something right after you posted to me asking how I was in recovery. The short answer: "I'm not in recovery." Hence the reason for no threads from me in recovery forum. I'm sure impressed with all of you who have made it, though!

Sorry about the confusion. How long has it been since your D-day? Has your WH gone NC with the OW?

I don't think my R really started until we finally went NC with the OM in early Sept. It was a difficult situation with an OC involved, but things have been steadily improving in my M since we went completely NC.

Hi writer- we are in what Harley calls a stalled recovery. Not making any forward progress. I don't remember the exact NC day anymore but it's been more than 3 years. The girl (and she is a girl in my eyes) lives in another state. She had moved to my city while (puking noise) on summer vacation from college--to rekindle after a false recovery. It's all pretty gross. If you look back on my posts from 2005 2006, you'll see a long, protracted story, with a whole lot of pain inflicted by my FWH. No, he's not having an A now, who knows if he ever will again. He definitely prefers the mindset and bodies of the 20-something set. Even listens to their crappy music and wears Jon Gosselin shirts. He's hopeless IMO.
But I won't divorce him because I don't want one of those skanks raising my kids. And he would get at least half, maybe primary custody, if he fought me.
So yeah, stalled recovery is about where I am. Hence, no real active threads for my sitch.

IMA: I'm terribly sorry. It sounds like a very difficult situation to deal with.

I know all about long term problems, since my H spent 10 years of our M in a (mostly) EA with his ex-girlfriend. I came to the point where I just accepted the fact that this woman would always be a part of our lives and our M and there was nothing I could do about it. I could divorce my H or I could accept her presence. Most of that time, my H spent trying to convince me they were "just friends" and that all of us could be friends. We went over to her house all the time. Our kids played together. And all this time, there continued to be "incidents" where my H messed up and crossed the line over and over again. They would spend hours on the phone talking about the "problems" in their respective M's. Yeah, I was angry all the time, which made my H unhappy, so he turned to her and complained about it. He never seemed to get that this OW WAS the problem in our M.

Even after an incident about 5 years ago where their EA came close to becoming a full-blown PA and my H "ended" contact with her, she's resurfaced several times. She's called him and emailed him a few times. We ran into her in the mall and she later came over to our house. She gave me a half-hearted apology about how sorry she was if "she'd ever done anything to upset me." Like being in love with my H for the first 10 years of my M and doing countless inappropriate things with him over the years wasn't supposed to be upsetting.

When we found the MB site, my H finally wrote her an official NC letter. This was in Sept. when I also wrote the OM a NC letter. We haven't heard from her since, but everyday, I wonder when she'll show back up in our lives again. She only lives 20 minutes away. It's bound to happen. I still have a hard time thinking she'll ever really go away for good.

My sitch is very different from yours, of course. I guess all A's have long-term consequences. Maybe it never really goes away entirely. I just take it one day at a time.

Yeah, we all come with our baggage. The good thing is that the MB forumteers really helped me through some incredibly difficult times.(H called family services on the advice of his lawyer to try to get me labeled as an unfit mom, he took my kids to Disney with the OW, who was pretending to be my BIL's GF, vomit). Melody, Pep, the Wonderings, Believer, Mulan, Our House, and so many others have been so helpful.
Funny thing: My H has read three Harley books and counseled with Steve on at least two occasions. But the privacy/secrecy thing is a deal-breaker for him. Too bad it's a deal-breaker for me, too.
Do you remember the Dr. Suess story about the Zax? That's us.

In fact, maybe I'll change my status to say "read Dr. Suess's The Zax"

That's one Dr. Suess story I am not familiar with. And here I thought I'd read them all. I'll have to track it down.

My H is slowly working his way through HNHN. We've done the EN questionnaire, but we never even went over the entire thing. My H isn't too big on MB, but I think we're still making progress.

The privacy thing was difficult for me at first too, since I'm a very private person. I think it comes from growing up an only child in a single-parent home. I had a lot of time to myself and tend to be an introvert by nature anyway. But I'm working on it.

I think The Zax is the one where the 2 Seussy creatures bump into each other while walking and neither one will move. An entire highway is built around them while they stand nose to nose. In the case of an A, the WS Zax needs to move aside and start walking with the other one!

I love Dr. Seuss.

Luri, that's exactly the one. The eastgoing zax will not step left or right, and the the westgoing zax will not step left or right, so they're stuck there for like 30 years, and they build the highways and city all around them. But both are too stubborn to take a step out of the way. That's us!

Well Writer, how is recovery going?
Whats new?

Things aren't going very well at the moment. We seem to be greatly lacking in the field of communication. We talk, but it doesn't ever seem to go anywhere. We talk a lot about making plans, changing things that aren't working, setting goals. And then... nothing. It never gets beyond the talking. My H and I just don't seem to be on the same page much of the time.

Sigh. I have a headache. I think the stress is starting to get to me.

writer:

You're my only MB buddy. I keep forgetting to check in on the Preggo forum but then I started reading thru your post and it looks like times are tough for you right now. Sorry to hear it.

Um, er, I'll probably get hammered for this but can I get preachy for a sec? Have you and your H thought about going back to church? I saw somewhere that you said it's been about 2.5 years. That's a long time. The Lord loves your family and has prepared many blessing for you guys. Are you ready to receive them?

Secondly, you said that both you and your H want to relocate. Obviously the home sitch makes that tough. Again, I'll probably get hammered, but what about just walking away from it all? Have you looked into bankruptcy? It's now always the right move but sometimes people need a fresh start. For various reasons we just get stuck into a place where we can't move forward. Sounds like you might be there.

I have friends who early on in their marriage made all kinds of financial mistakes. The only way out was bankruptcy. They pretty much lost everything they had (including wedding rings). But what they got out of it was a fresh start. Yeah, they had to rent. Yeah, they had to buy cheap cars. Yeah, it took a while to recover. But ask them today and they will tell you it was worth it. They are strong in the church, the husband is a high-level executive at Raytheon and they have a sprawling home in Texas. Most importantly, their family is strong and thriving.

I'm not advocating bankruptcy, just offering it up as an option because it sounds like maybe your family needs a fresh start.

As for you and your H. Tonight don't talk about money at all. Sit down in front him and get his full attention. Look him in the eyes and tell him how much you love him, how grateful you are for him and how very much you want to be with him forever. Even if you don't feel it, say it and keep saying whatever comes to mind until you do feel it and he feels it back. Money, house, job - all that stuff is crap if your marriage is gone. You two have been through hell together. Don't let the day to day chip away at what counts. It's easy to forget what matters, I certainly know I fell into that trap. Don't fall into it.

Do everything you can together, as one, just as God commanded, and you'll come out of it OK, no matter what happens.

Avoid bankruptcy if possible, thats what Ramsey says.

Writer1's main financial problem is an income deficiency. The answer to that is to increase her income, wile not adding more dept via student loans for degrees that cant be put to good use.

In the meantime, cut the fat as much as possible.

Here, lets do a little crunching, if your comfortable with it.
(One thing at a time)


Do yall have a car payment?
If so, how much a month, how much total, are you upside down, if so how much?

Sorry, I don't have much time.

The church thing is a long story. I will have to address that later.

We have/are considering bankruptcy and/or walking away from the house. It's such a hard decision to make.

No car payment. Two older cars with lots of miles on them. My van needs $5000 worth of repairs and is dying. My boys' school is 6 miles away and I have no family in the area. Relying on friends for transport has been sketchy, since the rides often fall through.

Home mortgage is upside down, but I'm not sure by how much. Maybe $50,000.

$70,000 in student loans, which would not be discharged in bankruptcy court.

About $15,000 in credit card debt.

To make matters worse, my 15 y/o son who has ADD failed all but two of his courses last semester. His counselor is recommending home schooling/independent study to get him caught up, which would make it all but impossible for me to get a job, since I would be legally required to be at home during the day to supervise his studies.

Good


Whats wrong with it?

My wife constantly complains her Explorer is faling apart. It is not, it's just old and she wants somthing newer.

If it really is dying, sell it and buy somthing even cheaper for cash.


If you want out, do a short sell or ask the lender if they will do a "Deed in lieu of forclosure, without penalty", but get it in wrighting.

This is the one that drives me coo,coo. 70k on an education that will probably never use.

Oh well, whats done is done.

Hardship Deferal



Are they current or late?

Why not just let him be heald back? And concentrate on after school tutoring the rest of this and next year?

What does your husband do?

My mechanic told me the van is dying. It needs a new transmission and engine. It leaks large amounts of several different types of fluid. I'm not sure who would buy it, but I doubt I would get enough for it to buy anything else that runs.

We have looked into a short sale. Still considering on that one.

I am using my education. Maybe not in a way that you can understand, but I am using it. My writing would never have gotten to the level it is at now if I hadn't gone to school and learned more about the process. I'm hoping that will pay off eventually.

The credit card payments are fairly current. We've been late a few times.

My son already got held back last year. His ADD is quite severe and he has a lot of issues that will probably prevent him from ever being successful in a traditional educational setting.

My H is in customer service.

Short sale will only work if the bank will forgive the remaining balance.

writer, your situation reminds me of my mother-in-law. Her life seems to move from trial to trial, never ceasing. But she's a strong woman with a positive attitude - she would have been good on the frontier (one of those tough-as-nails, frowning old hags you see in old family pictures, hehe).

Sigh, I wish I could help more. Are you in the Riverside area? I'm up in Santa Clarita, north of L.A. (where Magic Mountain is). I can't remember - did you say you have family close by? If not, where is your nearest family? I live within 5 miles of nearly all of my family and that's been a huge blessing during my whole mess.

My heart says you need a fresh start. How you get that...I don't know.

Thanks ID. A fresh start sounds good. I picture myself living in a little hut on the beach on some tropical island (like Fiji), sipping a lovely cup of herbal tea, eating fresh fruit from a basket, and writing to my heart's content. There would be nice long walks on the beach at sunset and trips to the farmer's market and maybe a horse. I've always wanted a horse.

Or, living in a lovely cabin in the woods, sitting on my porch sipping that warm herbal tea, still writing to my heart's content, long hikes through the woods, a garden, a pet grizzly bear. I really loved "Grizzly Adams" when I was a kid.

Well, I can dream, can't I?

I live south of Riverside in Lake Elsinore. My family is in southern L.A. County, which is about an hour and a half away. My H's family lives out there too.

Crazy week of weather, wasn't it !

Indeed it was! We had so much hail yesterday that my deck turned white.

I had a beastly time getting my boys to and from school.

I have a good friend who does bankruptcy in Santa Cruz, if you would like his name.
On the shortsale, let your realtor inquire. I had to go this route and the bank jumped at it vs forcelosure where they lose much more.

Thanks. I'm hoping we don't have to go the bankruptcy route. We have a friend who is a financial advisor who we are supposed to be meeting with soon, so we're putting off making any decisions until we speak with him.

We've stayed in contact with the real estate agent that sold us our house, and she seems very comfortable handling short sales. She says the banks have been far more accepting of them lately, especially in our area, where almost every house is upside down.

Hi Writer,
Ok, this may sound a little nutz, but here are a few things you may or may not have considered before:
1. Possibly doing what the school suggests, and bring your son home to school. You certainly have the education.
2. Use that time to try to foster some interest/passion in subjects and areas where your son can flourish. Know that many ADD kids, once in the proper setting, do quite well.
3. Take up an at-home job for the time being, like medical transcriptionist, etc. Go to your local job corps and see if they can suggest some reputable ones. You should be able to use your computer for that.
4. See if you can involve your son in that at-home job, so he can help supplement the family income.
Just remember, sometimes the best path to your goal may not be immediately in front of you, it could require a few detours because of fallen trees, etc. Think of something like this as a temporary detour.
It could be that your gift of writing, and your $70K education, can be used as the ultimate gift for your son. If you're doing something for him, is it really beneath you? Definitely not!
I hope this helps, even if it's not exactly what you come up with, maybe it gives you other ideas.

Never, ever, ever, trust a mechanic.

I don't care if he is your best friend, or brother.

Year/make/model?

Have you asked the lender about "Deed in lieu of forcloser, without penalty?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deed_in_lieu_of_foreclosure

Hope is good, dreams and aspirations are good. But they are even more rewarding when they lead directly to a career.


I understand.
I was diagnosed with mild ADD when I was in middle school, very mild Dyslexia in high school and Dyscalculia as an adult.

I was told in no uncertain terms when I was in high school that I was to dumb to go to a standard university.

However, not wanting to spend a life doing manual labor or retail work, I took my drawing ability's to heart and went to a vocational school for drafting and design.
I am now a draftsman/designer at a engineering firm.

Don't get to disheartened about your sons scholastic disadvantages, keep him out of trouble and he may surprise you with what/who he becomes.

Standard retail, or corporate?
I ask because I am wondering if he is in line for a promotion in the next few years?

Ima: Thank you for your suggestions. He probably will end up home schooling, for awhile at least. He's opposed to the idea, since he's very social and doesn't want to leave his friends. But I believe he will do much better if we separate his social time from his educational time. I know he's a smart kid. Now, I just have to get him to believe it.

I have looked into and continue to look into work from home opportunities. It's so difficult to discern between the legitimate ones and the not so legitimate ones. Unfortunately, there seem to be far more of the latter. But I am still looking.

Gack: I trust my mechanic. He was recommended by a member of my (former) church. Besides, he's the one that advised me not to do the repairs, since the van isn't worth $5000. If he was trying to pull one over on me, he probably would have urged us to do the work so he could make a serious amount of money off us. The van is a 2000 Dodge Caravan, not the most reliable of cars by a long shot.

Our mortgage isn't in default at this point. We are current on our payments, just really struggling to make them.

My son is very interested in skate boarding and I think he's hinging his hopes that he'll be able to go professional. He doesn't quite realize that almost no one makes a decent living from skate boarding. I'm sure he'll figure out eventually that a backup plan is very necessary. He's at that age where he thinks his parents know absolutely nothing about life and he's got everything figured out for himself.

My H is in corporate. He currently works for a company that manufactures orthodontic equipment. He has looked into transferring to the sales department and recently put in an application for an open position. He's tried for it in the past, but didn't get it, so we'll have to wait and see. There is a lot of stress and uncertainty in sales, but there is an opportunity to make much better money. If he gets it, it would likely mean relocating to wherever there is an open territory within a year. That's actually one of the things I like best about him going into sales, because I really want to get out of where we currently live. Sales would mean lots of traveling and much longer hours than he works now. It would be an adjustment.

My first car was a 1986 Dodge Caravan - absolute POS. Worst car I've ever owned, by far. You have my sympathies.

Thank you ID. Yep, worst car I've ever owned. I can't even begin to list the number of things that have gone wrong with this car. I think it needs to skip being put out to pasture and go right to being shot.

Or he just did not want to deal with it.

Is your husband mechanically inclined?

If it where me, I would just get an engine and tranny combo from the pull-a-part and swap it in.
($150 for an engine/$100 for the tranny, and about two days swap time, total)But there is nothing I cant fix on an automobile if I have the parts and the motivation to do so.

Ehhh.

It's still newer than my wifes '93 Explorer.
(Which I love by the way)


KBB rates the value @ $1,735, I have seen some decent older small SUV's go for around $2,000 in the auto trader here. You could sell to a private seller and buy an old SUV or compact car.

Old does not necessarily mean bad, especially if you can do maintenance yourself.

My H is about the least mechanically inclined person ever. There's a reason why he works in an office. I think he can change the oil, and he can put gas in a car, but that's about it.

That's been one of the big areas of contention in our M. My H just isn't inclined to fix anything. It took him 5 years to hang the curtain rod in our bedroom. My deck is falling apart and should be condemned. We went 5 years with only one functioning shower (for 6 people) before he finally agreed to call a plumber. There are holes in my walls, bathroom/kitchen cabinets with multiple missing drawers, holes in my fence, my front door won't close right when it rains and our house has already been broken into once because of it.

I'm complaining again, which makes him either a) mad or b) morose. I know I complain too much, but it's difficult to spend all day everyday alone with a baby in a house that's falling down all around you. It's depressing.

And I know he isn't good at this stuff. I get that. He's made it perfectly clear that working with his hands just isn't his thing. But I've had to learn things that weren't my thing. I didn't even know how to boil water when we got married. Now, I can cook anything. My mother didn't teach me a thing. When I first moved out, I had never washed a dish, never done a load of laundry, never even made a bed. I figured it all out. I may not be Julia Child, but I'm competent. We don't starve and we don't walk around naked and we aren't eating off the floor.

Sorry, ranting again. I think you struck a nerve Gack.

You don't walk around naked???? I thought everyone did that!

I have nothing useful to contribute at this time, just wanted to be a smarty pants.

I knew there was a reason why I liked you so much.

Me likey you too-ey

Writer,

Consider selling your care for KBB. And some of what it would cost you to repair it and then buy another used car.

As for fixing things, some people are into it and some are not.

Your H is not a bad mad for not being into fixing things. Oddly, most things built today are built to discourage fixing them. Cars for sure, houses with code and all, are now something inspectors and such don't really want you to fix. I mean the paper work along. Electrical stuff is not easy to fix and more expensive to fix than replace.

I grew up fixing things: cars, motors, radio's, TV's. Today you just cannot do it without special tools. If done my share of home remodeling and such, but today you need to pull permits and it is not worth the effort.

My point, your H is willing to work a lot harder, for longer hours and travel (which is no fun) to support you and YOUR child. He is not allergic to work, he just knows what he can and cannot do.

You could call a plumber you know, and not wait for him.

My point, you two are in a tough spot now. It is time to support each other, and face the world together.

God Bless,

JL

JL: No, I don't think my H is a bad man just because he isn't into fixing things. The dilemma in our situation is that we can't really afford to have anyone else come in and fix things for us. So, if we can't do it ourselves, it just doesn't get done. Our house is old and there are a lot of things wrong with it. I understand my H may not be able to rebuild our deck, but hanging curtain rods and repairing holes in drywall are doable. They just never seem to get done.

Here's something I've noticed, and I'm not sure what to do about it. It seems that, whenever my H is home, if I start to do something (dishes, laundry, whatever) my H thinks he has to take over for me. When he's around, he doesn't want me to do any work at all. If I start doing something, he'll say "Honey, I can do that." It isn't that I don't appreciate the help. It's just, I would rather he do something else that needs doing (like working on one of the many repairs) while I'm doing whatever it is that I started doing. I am perfectly capable, but it doesn't seem like he thinks that I am.

And yes, I am grateful for the hours that my H works to support our family. Of course, he isn't just supporting me and our OC. We still have COM at home that he's supporting as well. But I am grateful for that.

As far as the plumber goes, I did call. I always set up our appointments, since I'm the one who will be home when the repair person comes. The problem was getting my H to okay me calling the plumber. I don't usually incur huge expenses without consulting with him first. It just seemed like there was always some reason why we had to wait, which doesn't make much sense, since we were doing much better financially during most of the time that we needed the repair than we were when he finally okayed it.

I know we need to support each other. I want to feel like we're a team, but much of the time, it doesn't feel that way. It seems like we spend way too much time butting heads and arguing about stupid things.

I'm beginning to see some of the same patterns returning that were present in our M before my A. It seems like things got better for awhile, but now they're just going back to how they were before. I want to stop it, and my H says he does too, but maybe we just don't know how. Good intentions don't seem to be enough.

Writer1,





Don't you find those two quotes fascinating??? I do.

You want him to help YOUR way, but you resent him helping you HIS way.

He isn't trying to prove you incompetent, he is trying to help you because he feels he failed and is failing in other ways and it cost him a lot...almost his marriage.

In case you haven't figured it out, your H doesn't come across as a very secure man right now. Let me think...

1. Not bringing enough money to support his family.

2. House falling down around his family.

3. Old clunker that he cannot afford to repair, his W's car at that.

4. You had an affair.

The list goes on. You ever thought that he is struggling...with himself and how he sees himself???

You might want to consider it.

You also might want to really consider the irony of those two quotes.

You might also consider working with him, not sending him off to do a job, that you probably won't approve of if he doesn't do it to your specifications.

My thought??? You and he need to work together on projects, interact as do, and then he won't feel like his likely to fail again in your eyes.

I might be wrong, but I am guessing but he would rather be with you, than doing something away from you. He does that all day.

Just thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you for your thoughts JL. I'll have to give them some consideration, but I do appreciate the input.

Please do, but understand they were not meant as an attack on you. Just thoughts from a 3rd person observer. I hope they help, and perhaps lead to a dialogue between you and your H, that leads to more things getting done around your house.

God Bless,

JL

Sorry, I certainly did not mean to.



Here is a really crazy idea, that may actually work.

You start one of the simpler, smaller repairs, see if he tries to help.


He is, I guarantee it.
I know I am and all I have right now is #4
But I have had 1, 2 and 3 in the past.

Words of wisdom from JL.


But I may be picking up on a little something from Writer about her H.

Would you say he lacks initiative/motivation?
What I am asking is, does he have time to do these things, or is there always something else that needs his attention at that moment so he puts repairs off.

Another thing JL brought up that hits home.
My wife is extremely critical about how I do something, wile I am doing it. So I do not do many projects with her, Because if she is there, and she knows anything about it (Like painting a wall) she will criticize my technique. So on projects like painting, I will put them off until she is either busy doing something else, or not home. When she sees the finished result, she is always pleased. It's that I don't do it the way SHE would do it that bothers her, not the final result.

(On things she knows nothing about, like electrical or Automotive work, we do not have this problem)

Do you do this?

Writer, my husband and I had this exact same dynamic. At first I would just give him the job I had started and walk away. Not good. Later in our marriage I would tell him "get your own job!" Not good.

When we finally started talking about things (instead of assuming we knew what the other was thinking!) it came out that he felt guilty that I was doing chores while he didn't. I pointed out I didn't have a problem with that--I handle my schedule so I am not "pushed" for time. The problem was my assumption that his taking over the chore was a criticism. It wasn't.

But I still saw no point in us both doing the same task. And that is where--ta da! POJA and teamwork came in.

Before MB, my husband and I were so horrible at working together. One day, we tried to move a turkey from one pan to another across the kitchen and we couldn't even do that without arguing how to do it! That was our first clue something was really wrong.

The solution has been to focus on learning to work together--with no lovebusting.

For example, we had the same problem with my H not being able to keep up with the house repairs. At the same time, I wanted to know more about how to fix things myself.

So now let's say we notice a leaky pipe. We sit down and write a list of exactly how we are going to fix it. We discuss how it will go. "First I'll turn the power off, then you go in and drain the tank. . . " So we pretty much know who will do what going in. I feel like a competent partner. He no longer has total burden of figuring out how to do what.

Repairs have been transformed from a source of conflict into a marital exercise. I am learning about how to do house repairs and it has taken a big load off H's shoulders. He is really good at fixing things and I am really good at organizing tasks--an ideal situation once we learned how to work together.

It's true your husband is not handy. Mine wasn't either when we first were married.

But a hammer doesn't care if you're an innie or an outie. And there's a lot of resources on the Internet that can help you learn how to do these things. Start out small and remember the focus is on fixing your marriage as well as your house!

Some sentences you just know will stay with you for the rest of your life and - one day - transform you....

"A hammer doesn't care of you're an innie or an outie." LOLOLOLOL

I just had this image of an "outie" trying to hammer their belly button back in.

Nano,

Excellent advice and exactly what I was driving at. Home repair is a lot more fun if you do it with someone. More satisfying as well.

Writer1, is it possible that your H is depressed. Some of your descriptions are of a man function while in deep depression. I could see why couldn't you? A lot of stress has occured in the past few years.

Just thoughts.

Hope they help.

God Bless,

JL

Still thinking.

I asked my H why he thought he felt the need to take over whatever job I was doing, and like Nano said, he said it's because he feels guilty because I'm doing something and he feels like he isn't really doing much or contributing enough. It's strange, because I actually think my H helps out a lot with the day to day stuff and I try to express my appreciation about that to him.

I think I'm only critical in the way that my H does things in one area, and that's cooking. I admit it, I'm a cooking control freak. I love to cook and I'm very good at it. My H's idea of cooking is pretty much opening 5 or 6 cans of whatever he can find in the cupboard, dumping them all in a pot together, and calling it soup. I'm really picky about what I put into my body, so that just doesn't cut it for me. He's a great sous chef, but we eat much better (and much healthier) when I'm in charge of the cooking, and that's important to me.

All other household chores, I could care less how they get done, as long as they get done. And when it comes to stuff I don't know anything about (like fixing stuff) I stay out of it altogether. I wouldn't mind learning how to fix things. I didn't have a dad or brothers or any male influence in my life growing up, so I never learned that stuff. My H's father is a carpenter and jack-of-all trades, so he definitely had the opportunity, just not the desire I guess. I'm not opposed to learning together though.

I don't think my H lacks initiative/motivation so much. I think he lacks knowledge. He's pretty good at getting things done if he knows how to do them. He just doesn't know how to do much when it comes to repairs and such.

Thanks everyone for chiming in. My H and I are talking about this stuff now, and I think that's a good first step.

I think we crossed paths posting JL.

I don't think my H is depressed. I know he isn't happy about how certain things are going in his life, mostly career-wise and financially. But he's a pretty upbeat kind of guy, in general. He's always taken a glass half-full approach to life.

I think I struggle with depression. I'm beginning to realize that my mother may have had a depression problem for most of her life. When I was growing up, she was either at work or asleep most of the time. She's always been very angry and sullen. She lashes out verbally at people on a regular basis, but she doesn't seem to notice that she's doing it. I've seen these tendencies in myself as well, but the difference is, I recognize them and I fight every day not to give into them. It scares me sometimes when I get angry or frustrated and I say things that sound like something my mother would say. I hate it. I don't know if it's an inherited depression-type thing, or if it's more just the fact that I was raised by her and learned this way of coping from her. But I don't like it when I see it.

I now have #1 back on my list.
I was just told that I have been reduced to a 32hr work week due to a projected loss of billable work.

Can he follow precise directions?

I ask this because my experience in automotive repair has lead me to believe there are three type of mechanics. Those that are "trained" those with "natural ability" and those with some amount of both. This pretty much seems to be true with any skill, including home repair.

However, even those with no training, and no natural ability can do extensive repairs if they are able to follow step by step instructions.

I know they use to sell a series of books that tough step by step instructions on how to do home repair/improvement, from unclogging a sink, all the way to building a deck. I bet you could find the same kinda thing for free on the Internet. Maybe you could both then do it together, it may even qualify as quality time.

Gack, sorry about the cut in hours. These icons make me laugh.

I keep hearing that the economy is supposed to be getting better. I never actually see it, but I do keep hearing it. Maybe we'll start to see some improvements soon.

"""""""whenever my H is home, if I start to do something (dishes, laundry, whatever) my H thinks he has to take over for me. When he's around, he doesn't want me to do any work at all. If I start doing something, he'll say "Honey, I can do that.""""""""

why don't you just start fixing one of the holes in the wall?

Because I would like to still have a wall at the end of the day.

Honestly, I have no idea how to do it. My H's father showed him and my H has fixed holes in the past, so he knows how. I'm pretty sure I'd make a huge mess of it if I tried.

my point was from your comment about your h's attitude.

"Honey, I can do that"

maybe he would just take over

I just hope he takes over before the house falls down.

I know, I know, I should stick to one thread, but my current thread on MB 101 doesn't get as much traffic, and this is an A related question, so I'm putting it here.

Is there ever a justification for breaking NC, because I'm afraid I may have to. Due to my son's legal problems (see my thread: Tossed on the Waves in MB 101 for details, but basically he has been falsely accused of rape and may go to jail and have to register as a sex offender for life) we are in financial dire straights. We need another $5000 to keep our attorney through our trial, and we just don't have it. Home mortgage is late/upside down, credit cards maxed out, credit destroyed, bank account empty. We've tried every relative we know, and no one has it. Really, we are desperate. We're probably going to lose our home. Our mortgage is less than rent for our area, so we won't be able to afford a new place to live if we go into foreclosure.

I have never asked the OM for a dime, but I'm thinking about it now, because I have nowhere else to turn. I lost my job because of the birth of our OC, and my H and I have taken 100% responsibility for raising her, both financially and otherwise. I know asking the OM for money now would open a huge can of worms, but my alternatives aren't great. I can't just sit and watch while my son's life is completely ruined. OM's family does not know about the OC and I know he doesn't want them to know. I'm pretty sure I can use that fact to get the money without him pushing the issue of visitation/custody. The last thing on earth he wants is for his new wife and kids to find out about this. I know this smacks of blackmail, but if I had any other choice, I wouldn't even be thinking about this.

Advice?

My first question to you is this:

What does your husband think/want to do?

We discussed the possibility a few months ago, when we weren't sure if there was going to be a trial. We agreed to put it off until we found out for sure. We just found out for sure this morning and my H is still at work, so we haven't had a chance to talk about it yet. I'm sure we'll talk about it tonight. Obviously, he doesn't like the idea. Neither do I. I think if we had any other choice, we would both rather not take this route. But if there isn't another way, what else can we do?

W1,

This is an issue which I raise quite often, but get torn to pieces about which is fair enough.

Yes you should pursue OM for money, it is his child and he should pay at least 50% for his upbringing, this is not an optional point, this is OCs' money and not yours.

What is OM getting for his money, a loving environment for his child and the beyond measure care of a mother for 18+ years. Do NOT LOW BALL asking only for 5000! Additionally the fact that you had a child near 40 means that you are in a touch spot with regards to earnings if the economy does not improve.

My bio-father supported his step-kids through medical school while I had to work my way through, this is a real issue with me, and that my adoptive father turned down his offer of money pains me to this day. Your child may ask this of you too!

The money will be the difference between college or no college.

You are the only one who can act as OCs' advocate so step up.

God Bless
Gamma

I have to say that Gamma makes some good points. I have another one. You had an A. So did I. It was inexcusably wrong. But at some point......the ramifications have to stop. In other words, the residual or indirect effects on my family just cannot go on indefinitely. I KNOW that my A contributed to my job loss, my isolation, my getting fat, and my suicidal hospital stay.

It stops now.

I will do what what needs to be done to be the person I am supposed to be, take care of DH the best I can, and be a mom. Period. It is 2010, not 2006. I'm done assuming that there are huge parts of my life that MUST be crap because I screwed up four years ago. No more.

This OM fathered a child. I get that he didn't want to. But he did. And because you have not had any help in this situation, now it affects your son. So if what you have to do to survive and keep your family afloat is ask this man to help support the child he fathered....then I won't be throwing stones. Yes, I am Mrs. Luri. I am also a mother, and while my M comes first, I WILL protect my babies.

Would it work if you and H asked for this together instead of you doing the communicating?

Writer, I worry that OM may want to begin a R with OC in exchange for the money which will possibly be hard on your H (or at least he may threaten this even though you don't think he would). If OM seeks a R, what kind of environment will this throw OC into?

Have you checked into any lawyers that will do pro bono work? Won't the state provide a lawyer if you are not able to afford one?

How will you afford the legal fees to bring CS case against OM if he takes it to court?

What about going back to work?

As a BS, this would DEVASTATE me if OW came after $$$ after all this time. And just as an FYI, I would fight and drag it out as long as possible which would probably end up costing her more in legal fees. I seriously doubt OM can just hand over $5000 without his new wife finding out.

Just my two cents. Do what's best for you and your sitch.

Refresh my memory, but didn't you say once that there isn't much money to be had from OM anyway? If that's the case, I say SO NOT WORTH what you, your H, and OC would have to give up in exchange for some chump change.

OM doesn't have much money. I know he got about $25,000 after his divorce when his ex-wife bought him out of his half of the house. I don't know how much of that he has left. $5000 may be chump change to some people, but it would be enough to keep our attorney and make sure that my son has decent representation at his trial. That's more than I can offer right now.

I really don't think OM will go after custody or visitation. He has expressed absolutely 0 desire to have anything to do with our OC. His greatest fear is that someone in his family will find out. I think he may pay the money to prevent that from happening.

I don't want to hurt his family. He's been divorced for over two years, so he is no longer with his BW. I'm not sure if he is now married or not. I haven't spoken with him in almost a year, and at that time, he was newly engaged and had no intentions of telling his new fiance about our OC. Honestly, I believed all along that she had a right to know what she was marrying, especially since her first marriage ended when her H cheated on her. She does not know that OM's marriage ended because of his adultery. I chose not to say anything because establishing NC and being able to move on with my life and take care of my family was more important to me than someone I'd never even met.

My H has done his best to support our family (including the OC) but we were struggling before these legal issues cropped up. This was just the nail in the coffin for us financially. I would LOVE to get a job, but I haven't been able to find one that would pay enough to cover the cost of child care and have enough left over to bother with. Unemployment in my area is still over 14%. Wherever this supposed recovery is in our economy, it isn't here in CA. Right now, I am under a court order to provide 24-hour a day supervision for my son as well, so I really can't work. I have no family in the area who can help out.

Luri: I don't care who does the communicating. I really have no desire to speak to the OM. I just want don't want my son to go to jail for a crime he did not commit. I just want our lives back.

Writer,

Consider this for a second...

No amount of money can assure that your son will be acquitted.

So you become a blackmailer. Has your husband approved this idea? Is he in enthusiastic agreement with it?

What if OM has had some troubles of his own lately and thinks that his only option is to find someone to have an affair with again? So now you contact him intending to blackmail him. What if he decides to blackmail YOU in return?

This is just so screwed up in thinking I don't know where to attack it first. This is NUTS, Writer! It is CRAZINESS and such messed up thinking that I don't even know where to begin.

I could make a case against it on so many levels but let's start with this...

IT WOULD BE WRONG!

Add to that, you get 5k, retain the lawyer another couple of months, the case is continued for some reason and the whole thing just implodes again in six weeks or two months and you are right where you are now only you have already justified becoming a lawbreaker yourself for the sake of expediency.



It would be horrible for your son to be convicted of a crime he did not commit.

It would be even worse if his parents were to be arrested for attempted blackmail!

Getting away with blackmail would NOT be better.

What are you TEACHING this son and your daughter?

Stop "feeling" and start THINKING!

ALL choices have consequences! Some are unintended. Some are awful. Some are beyond our ability to modulate or modify. Bad choices are not fixed by more bad choices!

/rant

Mark

Okay, but the OC is the OM's responsibility. I simply didn't choose to hold him accountable before. Legally, he could be held financially responsible for paying CS for 18 years. I don't think he'll want to take that route, but we certainly can, and it would be perfectly legal. And how could he blackmail me? I have been 100% honest with my entire family. There's nothing he could tell them that they don't already know. He has nothing on me.

As far as starting up an A again, that won't happen. He lives 3000 miles away from me.

The lawyer's fees were $5000 if we settled before trial, $10,000 if it goes to trial. It doesn't matter how long it takes to get to trial, the $10,000 would cover it.

It's not like I'm trying to get money from someone who doesn't actually owe it to me. The truth is, the OM has always had a legal and moral responsibility for the decisions that he made. He is 50% responsible for this OC, and so far, he has done absolutely nothing about it. It is largely my H who has been paying for this, and that hardly seems fair, since he had 0% responsibility for creating the situation.

Black mail the OM so you have money to pay for your other son, but not to support the OC?

No.

Smart enough to go to college.

How did you pay for that when you where doing the OM?

Call legal aid in your state.

Student loans.

And I could very much use some $$$ to help pay for the support of our OC.

Writer,

I'm not trying to beat you up, but read what you wrote in reply to my post.

Lots of reasons why OM should be contacted for money after you let him skate because you wanted to put your marriage back together.

I understand having a child in trouble. Our DD did 19 months for stealing a car with her xH. When she got out and they had divorced because she caught him cheating, she stole from us.

You need 5000 dollars. Your son is in trouble.

OM could be held liable for child support to support OC.

Can you see that those two have nothing to do with each other. The only common element is YOU. YOU are the tie between your family and OM.

"If you don't _____ (fill in the blank) I will let everyone know you tried to squeeze me for money after deciding to let your husband raise my child as his own."

Pinky's OM lives more than twice that from where she and SoL live.

Well that certainly changes everything, doesn't it?

You are still talking about blackmail, Writer. You are looking to use paternity of your child as leverage to get money you didn't want from a man you wanted nothing to do with any more and that you wanted to have no contact with your child.

Did your husband approve this plan? Is he 100% behind this? Is he in favor of opening your family up to OM forever in order to raise 5 thousand dollars?

And so do you.

And you get the other 50%, right? I don't even understand why this is an issue except that you NOW decided that this is the way to raise money.

You even said that you lost your job because you had OC. Where is YOUR responsibility in this, Writer? I'm not following this logic that OM is responsible for your son's legal problems. That is what you are trying to connect here.

And just so you understand me, if I had the money, I'd be inclined to give it to you so that you wouldn't even be facing this crap. But your son's legal problem is not related to OM or his responsibility for OC in any way, shape or form. You would not be even considering going after him for "child support" if you didn't need the 5K for your son's defense. If you want to sue him for child support, then do it, but contacting him, hoping to leverage him into giving you money under threat of exposure to his new wife is absolutely wrong. It is called blackmail.

Again I have to ask... Is your husband on board with this idea? Is he in enthusiastic agreement to contact OM and try to leverage him for money for your son's defense?

I am telling you that this could be the end of your marriage even if he is in agreement...

Your husband is your son's father, is he not? If so, then your son is his responsibility and not OM's. Do NOT use OC as a pawn to connect the two situations. They are NOT related except that you are connected to both. If your son was not in trouble, you would not be thinking of holding OM accountable for CS and that isn't really what you are asking for. You are asking for hush money...

What if he refuses your request? Do you destroy his new marriage?

Come on, Writer. This has all sorts of things wrong with the whole plan; it's hard to just argue one point.


If there was no OC, and OM was not your former affair partner, what would you do? If OC were actually your husband's child, what would you do?

Mark

No, my son isn't my H's. I had 3 children when my H and I married. Our 16 year old son is our only COM. My 18 year old son's bio dad owes me $50K+ in child support, but 17 years ago, when I tried to collect it, he disappeared. He has been in sporadic touch for the past 2 years, but the phone number I was using to contact him no longer works and I don't know his address. He is living half time in El Paso, TX and half time in Mexico. That's all I know.

I was very uncertain about cutting OM out of our OC's life and letting him off the hook as far as CS goes when I first came to this site in September. There seemed to be people arguing in favor of it and against it. In the end, I decided to follow the advice of not pursuing CS. Since then, things have continued to deteriorate for my family financially. My H does want to take full responsibility for our OC, but we're struggling very much. I know I am 50% responsible for that, but so is the OM. As it stands now, my family and I are taking 100% responsibility for it. I don't think this is fair to my H. I do want to work. I want to take responsibility. But I haven't been able to find a job. Where we live is very economically depressed. There just aren't any jobs. I've been looking for a year. Laying all of this on my H seems completely unfair too.

I don't know what I would do if there was no OC. If it weren't for my A with the OM, there would never have been another baby. My H had a vasectomy 12 years ago, because we knew we couldn't afford any more children. If it weren't for the A, I would still be working and our finances probably would not be in the state they are in. Yes, I know the A was my responsibility. We are in this situation because of the terrible, selfish choices that I made. But the OM made those same choices, and he hasn't had to take responsibility for them. Every time I see how much we're struggling just to put food on the table, it makes me angry to know that the OM is out there somewhere, getting off scot-free, suffering no consequences for his behavior. He hasn't had to own up to anything that he did.

I assure you that there is no chance of the A resuming. That is the last thing on earth on my mind right now. I have no feelings for the OM. I have not spoken to him in almost a year, and I don't care if I ever speak to him again. But I am tired of watching my H struggle everyday to pay for my mistakes, and yes the mistakes of the OM as well. I know this has placed a tremendous amount of strain on my H. I'm going to do all that I can to find a job as soon as possible to help out with that. I don't know what else to do.

Answer this question honestly, writer. Be honest with yourself. You do not for one minue want OM in your marriage and in your baby's life. You are desperate to save your son. I get that. Truly I get it. What you are attempting to do is wrong on so many levels. Sweetie you argue against C all the time on here!

Stop and think! This is all crazy making, writer.

I know it. But I've spent 4 months now trying to figure out how to come up with the money, and I just don't think I have the body to be a call girl anymore. (That's a joke, by the way. See, I can still joke. I must be in here somewhere).

Ah Writer,

All the good arguments have been made about how you shouldn't do the "blackmail" thing as we can call it.

I doubt your H will or would approve either.

I will just add my name to the list because you don't need money that bad to get that desparate.

Is your other son who is staying with you able to contribute to supporting the home?

How is your MIL or is it your Mom that has been sick? Is there any help from those living with her? I forgot thier story.

You have survived this long without help from those other guys. Help that you deserve yes, but you guys are not beggars.

Don't sacrifice the permanent on the alter of the immediate writer. You have proven that you can survive and love these children without those losers help, and you can bet that those children will remember your example someday.

Don't sell out

Writer 1- I understand your dilemma, however did OM not paying CS cause this situation before you ? Did OM not paying CS cause the current financial situation? I just think opening this door would potentially destroy two families. Who is to say he would not take you to court and drag this out more so than u ever imagined. In addition, there are a lot of unknowns. For me it seems that you have more to lose if your only reason for contacting him is because of your current financial situation. this could have been the situation if you were receiving CS....then what.

Can u take out a loan from the bank? Or See if ATTY will put you on a
payment plan?

I don't think CS will solve the underlying problem.

I know you will do what is BEST for your family!!;)


I know you will do what is best for you and your family;)

CP: My mom broke her foot two months ago and has been living off $83 a month disability ever since. It isn't even enough to cover her insurance. She's trying to get on Medi-Cal, but the paperwork takes forever to go through. My MIL is working, but my FIL has been out of work for 2 years now. He's pretty much resigned himself to early retirement, even though they can't afford it.

Beth: Our financial woes began when the OC was born and I lost my job as a substitute teacher. We just haven't been able to make it on one income and I can't find a job in the area that pays enough to even cover the cost of daycare, let alone have anything left over afterwards. We were looking at having to file bankruptcy and facing the possibility of losing our home long before my son's current financial difficulties. So yes, most of our financial problems (other than the current need for $5000) are directly related to the birth of our OC.

We cannot get any sort of loan. Our credit is terrible at this point. We are on a payment plan of sorts with the attorney, but the plan involves us paying him $850 a month, which is about a third of my H's take home pay. We just don't have enough left over to cover everything else. We are not going to be able to pay our mortgage this month for sure. It's already late. Once you fall behind on a mortgage, it's very difficult to get back on track. I'm worried about what we will do if we lose the house. Our mortgage is much less than the average rent for our area. We won't be able to find anything we can afford that will be big enough for our family. It's very scary facing the possibility of being homeless. We don't have any family who could take all of us in. I certainly don't want to get to the point where I'm raising the baby in a homeless shelter, which seems like a possibility at this point.

Sigh. Sigh. Sigh. I'm so tired of all this. I just cannot deal with it anymore.

Writer,

I still have vivid memories, from 5th grade, of giving my adoptive father some of the money I had saved, while on vacation ,when he ran out. Meanwhile my biological father was living well and my biological mother was suffering in poverty. Money isn't everything but it does help, especially if your life sucks one way or the other.

Expose to his ex-wife, the implied threat of exposure to his daughters and current woman, will bring him to the table. Get a monthly CS settlement, your child will thank you later.

This needs to done through the courts so he can't slip out.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma,

In some ways, I'm actually starting to agree. My oldest son wants to go to film school. It's a full time program that won't allow you to work while you attend, and he can't get enough grant/loan money to cover both the tuition and living expenses and we can't help him. So, he's stuck with a dead-end job working at Starbucks and no ability to support himself. His bio dad never paid a cent in child support. I will forever wonder if his life could have been different if I had pursued that.

So, on the one hand, I don't want my OC to end up in a similar situation. Given our finances, my H and I almost certainly won't be able to afford to send her to college. Heck, I don't even know if we'll have a place to live by this time next year.

On the other hand, there is the issue of visitation/custody that may arise if I get a CS order from the OM. I don't really think he'd be interested in it, but who knows. He made it pretty clear he didn't want anything to do with the situation. And, he lives 3000 miles away, so I have no idea how such a thing would even work. You can't very well stick a 2-year old on a plane by herself.

My H is very WILLING to support the OC and accept her as his own child, the problem is, right now at least, he simply isn't ABLE to do it. I know his intentions are good, but good intentions do not keep a roof over your head or food on the table. I'm trying to balance the ideal (keeping OM out of the picture and raising OC with my H in a stable, loving environment) with reality (my H and I can't actually afford a stable environment).

W1,

Ever since the scarlet letter days, the burden has fallen unequally on the women when they have an affair, while the men wander off and are forgiven.

And yes I agree OM will be happy to pay money if no other exertion is involved. My adoptive father was offered money by my biological father, but he magnanimously turned him down.....

God Bless
Gamma

Writer, I don't think I've seen your answer to this question:
Have you checked into legal aid or pro bono work or the state being required to provide representation of a lawyer?


It's not comfortable, but could you get a job at night and let you H take care of the kids while you work?? You may not can find an ideal job, but it would be something.

Can your DD not work and help support his defense? What about your other COM? If they are grown and living at home, are they contributing to your household expenses?

Migs: We did have a public defender before we hired the private attorney, but we were not happy with the job she was doing. Unfortunately (where we live at least) you can't request a different PD if you aren't happy with the one assigned to your case. The PD's are fine for less serious charges, but this is something that could potentially impact the rest of my son's life.

I have considered getting a night job. I used to work evenings at a bookstore, but they aren't hiring anymore. There really aren't many places here that are hiring. The CA economy (especially the Inland Empire, where I live) just isn't doing well.

My DD is in Alaska. She's putting herself through college completely on her own and she's working this summer to pay for that. There's no way I can ask her for $$$. We are going to start charging our 21 year old rent, since he's working and living with us, but he works at Starbucks, so he doesn't make a ton of $$$. It will help some, but it won't be nearly enough. My 18 year old is the one on home supervision, so he can't work. And my 16 year old has a slew of behavior/ADD related problems of his own.

Writer,

I am very sorry about your situation. But I have to agree with the majority that this is not a good idea. You would be starting a second legal battle in pursuit of a couple hundred dollars a month. They might make it retroactive and add the costs of the delivery which would just be added on to the CS in small monthly increments that he might pay off in 4-5 years. Your other option is to cozy up to him and ask him to help you because of what you "used to have". IT DOESN'T WORK!

I think you need to check with legal aid, research pro-bono work like Migs suggested. There should be other resources out there. Have a family discussion with all of your kids, how can they help the family out? Where else can you pinch, can your church help with a fund raiser? any other friends that can hold a car wash? brainstorm on all of these, bake sale at church on sunday morning, etc.

Fled: Well, my original inclination was more along the lines of blackmail, since OM's family doesn't know anything about the OC. I thought I might be able to get enough out of him to cover some of our immediate and dire financial needs by agreeing not to tell his ex-wife and current fiance/wife/whatever about the OC. That wouldn't involve a legal battle or playing nice-nice (quite the opposite, I would imagine).

I know, it wasn't a very nice thing to consider, but my H's family has already helped as much as they are able and with my mom being on disability, she actually needs our help right now, and I have nothing to offer.

I guess, as far as churches and fundraisers go, I'm kind of reluctant. To be honest, it's very difficult to be on the "accused" side of these issues. There is a natural inclination in people to believe the "victim" and, even though I believe in my son's innocence, and all the people who really know him do not believe he is guilty, I still feel as though we are living beneath the umbrella of a certain stigma. It's one thing to ask family to help out, but to go into the community and expect people to contribute to someone's defense when they have been accused of a very violent and terrible crime is something else. To the population at large, there is going to be this natural tendency to assume that someone who is accused of a crime is more than likely guilty. We don't attend church regularly (for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with the current situation) so I'm really not close to anyone there.

Writer1, what did you decide to do?

We took a plea bargain, at the advice of our attorney. DS 18 is now serving 4 months in juvenile hall for a crime I'm even more convinced he did not commit after witnessing the antics of the "victim" and her family in court on the day of his sentencing. After the hearing, even our attorney was starting to question his own advice, but we were already committed, so not much we could do. Going to trial is always a gamble, and we didn't want to take the chance of our son ending up in prison for possibly 8 years and having to register as a sex offender. He will be home in November. Everyday is a struggle, but we are muddling through.

I haven't contacted OM yet and I hope I won't have to. We haven't paid our house payment since April and still owe the attorney $1300. We're barely living paycheck to paycheck and don't really have much of a plan for what we're going to do once we get kicked out of the house. I'm still trying to get my H to sit down and come up with a plan. He is applying to lots of jobs around the country in areas that are less expensive to live in than So-Cal. I know he's banking on one of those coming through before we lose the house, since there's really nothing around here we can afford to rent. I'm still looking for a job as well, but there's really nothing around this area. The job market here hasn't improved at all. I think we have the second worse job market in the nation right now. I'm considering going back to school to become a licensed medical sonographer. It's something I've been interested in for awhile, but the only program near me is still waiting on its accreditation to go through, and I won't do a non-accredited program. It's a good, solid field and the program is only two years. The pay is decent and I think I would enjoy it. I would still love to teach, but it seems the teaching field isn't doing so well right now. It may be different in other areas, but in CA, there aren't many teaching jobs anymore and lots of teachers have been laid off.

Writer, you wrote this post back in 2009. I really don't see much forward movement since then. Mostly, we've heard about your trials and tribulations in your marriage that "never really had a solid foundation and got off to such a rocky start in the first place."

It doesn't sound like your marriage has EVER recovered, first from your WH's infidelity right out of the gate and then your's, with an OC as a result.

Why stay? And more importantly, why keep coming back to MB to ask for advice that you don't take (if that's your intent, rather than just to blog)?

What would you do if you weren't afraid?

Actually, MB has helped me a lot and I have taken a lot of the advice I have received here.

When I first came here it was literally a couple of days after going NC with my OM and I wasn't at all committed to maintaining that NC. I was still very foggy and still very much believed that OM should be a part of OC's life. MB helped me realize how huge of a mistake that would be.

I have read most of the material on the site and many of Dr. Harley's books and I think I've benefited a lot from them personally. I fully agree with the concepts promoted on the site and the forum, especially POJA, the PORH, and the importance of meeting EN's and spending UA time together. But my H has never really fully embraced the program, and though we talk about it all the time, there's not much I can do to force it. UA time has been one of our biggest struggles because of issues with childcare. I think my H would be fine with just one date night a week. He says that is enough for him to feel in love with me and it seems like he doesn't quite understand why it isn't enough for me. Also, he is much more of the opinion that love should be unconditional and not necessarily based on the meeting of EN's, though he did fill out the ENQ once a long time ago.

I think the main reason I'm still in my marriage is things have never gotten quite bad enough for me to leave. They certainly aren't ideal. They could be better. I know I don't have a fully recovered MB marriage. But things aren't all bad all of the time. We do have good times. There are things about my marriage that are good. And my H is a wonderful father to OC. While most people here think the only kind of marriage that should exist is an MB marriage, most of the marriages I've witnessed in real life do not follow MB and most of them have not resulted in a divorce.

Could they be better if they did follow the MB program? Probably. But divorce isn't something I take lightly. I have been married for over 20 years. In many ways, it's difficult for me to imagine life without my H. He's been a part of my life forever. And I have no desire to date or remarry, which would necessitate getting a divorce first. If my marriage did end, I would just end up raising DD5 as a single parent, and she would end up being shuffled back and forth between two homes, which isn't ideal either.

I'd just say that doesn't make them successful. But you know that already. It sounds like you have decided to settle. Is that right?

I agree most marriages do not follow MB. Because they don't know about MB. They don't understand how to fall in love again. But YOU DO. Just staying in a bad marriage is not what I would consider a "success." I would call that a failure.

Seriously Writer you don't have any right to. He didn't raise the boy and where there are no rights there are no responsibilities. This is yours and your H's responsibility no matter how tough it is.

Just think also what you'd be teaching your son if you called up an old paramour just because you needed money. A need for money does not mean a relaxing of standards. Passing the rights of your cherished child up just because you've started to find the responsibility pinches a bit also teaches your son he can't rely rely on you, or himself come to that. It must come down to find a stooge to find the money? I think pretty much any option you land on would be better.

Whoa, that's an old quote. I think I wrote that almost four years ago. Sure was a dumb idea though. So glad I didn't do it. We lost our house and had to file for bankruptcy, but we made it. Money isn't really an issue anymore, thankfully. And I haven't had even the remotest desire to contact the OM in a very long time.

What are the statistics?
Dr. Harley mentions them on his radio Show often...around 55% divorce, and 20 percent stay permanently separated.
Harley wants people to be in the 25% of success

Relief!