Marriage Builders
Posted By: RockRat99 Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/17/11 06:01 PM
Hi - REALLY lost and need help. My wife of 10 years had an affair and is pregnant. Of course I'm completely devastated, crushed, heartbroken... I still love my wife and have spent the past month trying to reconcile this and decide what to do. If it were only the affair, I think I could get through this. But the illegitimate child seems to be a showstopper for me - I simply can't see myself making the hard sacrifices required to raise this child; I'm 52 and have two grown children from another marriage. This is not what I saw as my life for the next 2 decades, at which time I'll be 70+. My wife is 42, ten years younger.

I really do love my wife, but I can't look at her without seeing the betrayal (because she's 5 months preg and getting bigger every day!). She was my precious and cherished partner and my friend. I no longer feel that - everything we've spent 10 years creating is tarnished - damaged. Again, I think I could work through all of that, but then there's the child. This child, what she represents, offends me to my very soul.

So, my question is:

How do men deal with this? Embracing another man's child, created from betrayal and adultery? I honestly am blind to this and can't see how it would be possible to love and/or accept this child and what it represents.

Thanks in advance,
RockRat
Question 1 - How do you know the child is not yours? Did you have a vasectomy or have you not had sex with your wife around the time of conception?

Question 2 - Why do you want to save your marriage? Why do you say you still love your wife and then a paragraph later you say that you don't feel that way anymore? Need to make up your mind about this one before you make any decision.

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can't see how it would be possible to love and/or accept this child and what it represents.


For most men it isn't. Certainly wouldn't be for me, I would have already been out the door, especially if there are no COM.

The good:

If you get divorced now, you probably don't have to worry about spousal support and definitely not on the hook for child support, unless of course the child is actually yours.

The bad:

You could possibly be able to save your marriage without having to deal with an OC if your wife consents to give up the child for adoption. If she doesn't and forces you into a decision and you decide you want to stay, you could also establish the paternity and make the OM pay child support.

The ugly:

You do something stupid like acknowledge you are the putative father, and your wife waits a couple of years to file for divorce after she finds another soulmate, and you get stuck for both child support and alimony because the marriage is well beyond ten years and there are no more grounds like you have now. When you accept the child as yours, knowing that it isn't, you can't walk into court later and get it changed.

There's nothing that says you HAVE TO accept this child, legally you have a get out of jail free card when it comes to your divorce. No one here is going to tell you you're wrong to do so.

Posted By: RockRat99 Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/17/11 07:35 PM
Thanks so much Americajin - all good thoughts and things to consider. Yes, I had a vasectomy 20+ years ago and know it's still good, as we both had fertility tests approx. 1.5 years ago. My wife knew she wanted a child, and after careful consideration, I agreed to bless her with what she wanted/needed. Instead of reversing my vas and going the natural route, we chose adoption. Spent the past 12 months getting trained and licensed through the state. That makes this just that much harder - I was willing to support her need/desire, and raise a child with her. But not this way, not by way of betrayal.

I know it sounds like I'm contradicting myself, but I do still love her. It's just that everything we were, and everything we built is now 'different' including the way I used to see her, as my beloved. Maybe I love her because I love her and that's just the way I'm wired, but maybe I'm no longer in love with her. I don't know - I'm so brutally hurt I don't know which end is up.

One last point - I've tried visualizing my life with her and without her - am unable to see my life without her - yet. I can see a life with her, but not with the child. She would NEVER give it up - she would lose me before giving up the child.

Thanks again - I appreciate any and all feedback and thoughts...

RockRat
Rockrat,

Welcome to MB. How long ago was your DDay? (discovery day). Has your WW (wayward wife) discontinued all contact with her OM (other man)? Is she being transparent with you? Before even considering R (reconcilliation) or not talk, I am curious where SHE is with her A (affair). How long (if at all) has the affair been over? Who is the OM? Does he know about the OC (other child)? Does he want to raise this child?

Next, what are the laws in your state regarding a child born within the boundaries of a marriage? I ask because you do not have to decide TODAY whether to D or not. You can choose to work on the M as long as you know how long LEGALLY you have to contest paternity of the OC.

BTW, if OM wants to be in the picture...that would be a deal breaker for me. My H has an OC. We have visitation. Contact with the xOW pretty much dooms my M to never fully healing. Long story about why we don't have an intermediary. Anyway, Dr. Harley recommends in the M's where the WW is pregnant that the BH raise the OC as his own if he is willing.

You have a lot of thinking to do.
Posted By: JtotheC Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/17/11 10:06 PM
"She would NEVER give it up - she would lose me before giving up the child."

Well, I think you have your answer right there. If she isn't making you the #1 priority in this scenario that she has created and doing what it takes to make you feel justly compensated, I don't see how your marriage can survive. Mine certainly didn't and I went through a very similar situation.

Dr. Harley's POJA is essential to successful marriages and even more so in severely damaged ones like yours. Unfortunately, you seem to be caught in a Catch 22 similar to my own - giving up the child would make you happy but not her while keeping the child would be a deal breaker for you but not her. In other words, the POJA is extremely difficult to implement in your case.

I would tell her your true feelings - that you cannot raise the child as your own. If she can't accept them and the consequences they bring (giving OC up for adoption), she doesn't accept you or the marriage. IMO, she is the one who should bend over backwards to save the marriage, not you, since she was the betrayer. In fact, this is the only way your marriage will heal going forward - there needs to be just compensation made to you. Once you are brutally honest with her (and hopefully her with you), you'll be able to see where each of you stands and whether the marriage is salvageable. Believe me, you can live without a wayward! Even one you are in love with.

Please don't feel guilty that you can't stomach raising the OC! It is an extremely difficult thing to do. This isn't your cross to bear. It is your wife's alone. That being said, over time, it is possible to develop strong feelings for the OC. I think you may surprise yourself especially when you see how innocent and precious the child is. In other words, it is very possible that you would be emotionally able to raise this child as your own. I have learned to never underestimate the emotional endurance of human beings - it can be astounding! The question is, is your wife worth the extreme anguish you'll have to go through to raise the OC? My prayers are with you two in this difficult time.
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Please don't feel guilty that you can't stomach raising the OC! It is an extremely difficult thing to do. This isn't your cross to bear. It is your wife's alone. That being said, over time, it is possible to develop strong feelings for the OC. I think you may surprise yourself especially when you see how innocent and precious the child is. In other words, it is very possible that you would be emotionally able to raise this child as your own. I have learned to never underestimate the emotional endurance of human beings - it can be astounding! The question is, is your wife worth the extreme anguish you'll have to go through to raise the OC? My prayers are with you two in this difficult time.
well said!
Originally Posted by RockRat99
I know it sounds like I'm contradicting myself, but I do still love her. It's just that everything we were, and everything we built is now 'different' including the way I used to see her, as my beloved. Maybe I love her because I love her and that's just the way I'm wired, but maybe I'm no longer in love with her. I don't know - I'm so brutally hurt I don't know which end is up.


RR, I am so sorry this has happened to you. This is a terrible, tough situation. Affairs are hard enough but situations that involve an OC are 10x more difficult. And doomed to failure unless a very specific path is followed.

Only you know if you can endure an OC. There is absolutely no virtue in staying in such an untenable situation if you can't stand it. And I assure you that you won't be in love for long under these conditions. You will fall out of love if you haven't already and might very well be better off getting a divorce. There is no shame in that and you would be fully within your rights.

But I have some questions for you.

1. did your wife get pregnant on purpose?

2. has she ended all contact with the OM? Does she plan on never seeing or talking to him again? What is his attitude towards it?

3. is the OM married, and if so, does his wife know?

I find it very disturbing that she places this child before her marriage which does not bode well for the future of your marriage.

PLEASE listen to Dr Harley's clip on this type of problem and read his post:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
I am revising SAA and it should be in print sometime in 2011, and the problem you raise will be included in it. But it's particularly difficult to address because of our no-contact-with-the-ex-lover rule on the one hand, and the need of a child to have contact with their natural parents on the other. Our radio archives have more on this subject than anything I've written so far, because we've had several listeners call in with this problem, and I describe the approach I take.

As you probably already know by now, I tilt toward keeping the marriage healthy at the possible expense of the child not having adequate contact with the OM. I recommend that at the time of birth, the other man not be mentioned on the birth certificate unless he demands it. That makes your husband the legal parent of the child. If he does demand being on the birth certificate, I recommend that he pay child support until the child is 19. If the OM wants visitation, I recommend that it be done with transparency, so his own family knows what's going on. A mediator, paid by him, is to pick up and deliver the child so that you and your husband never have to have any contact with him.

In almost all cases that I've witnessed, the OM isn't willing to be named on the birth certificate, pay the child support, or make the situation known to his family. Under those conditions, I highly suggest that he not be able to visit his child until he or she is an adult. If an attempt is made, I suggest getting a restraining order. While that policy seems very rigid and uncaring toward the child, the alternatives are usually disastrous. Having an old lover around, the cause of your husband's greatest sadness, has such an devastating effect on the marriage that few survive.

Having heard from some of the couples who have followed this way of thinking, and others who have done the opposite, I am confident that it is the best approach to your situation.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Radio Clip with Dr Harley about pregnancy from an affair: click here
RR, as someone who has been in your WW's shoes, as a wayward with an OC I can't imagine that your wife would fault you for ending the M. If you do decide it's too much, you will need to make sure that you're not on the birth certificate (most states assume husband is father unless proven otherwise). She will need to put OM on there so that you're not financially responsible.

However, if you do decide to stay in the M, you can have a chance at happiness as a family. In my case my BH decided to stay with me and raise OC as our own (OM is involved, though). However, keep in mind a few things as you make this decision:

1. What conditions created the environment for an A to be desirable for your WW? Have those issues been resolved in your M so that you don't keep committing the same LBs (love busters)? With a baby on the way, you'll need to make extra effort to have love and romance in your M to keep it fulfilling for you both down the line. Are you prepared for that kind of emotional investment?

2. This will be very very hard on your M recovery if the OM is involved, unless you have an intermediary handle baby transfers. When my BH was doing it all it was hard on both of our recovery, so we have recently switched to an IM (various people help so we don't have to deal with a stranger) and it's made things so much better for us. We consider OM a "glorified babysitter" and have no contact and are doing amazingly well since using an IM. Dr. Harley is right about NO CONTACT for life between WW and OM, and it even helps protect M if BH has no contact too. If OM is out of the picture, well, I'd kill to be in your shoes!

3. If you decide to accept child as yours at birth, that child will be yours for life. My BH would have it no other way; he adores OC, and when that baby is born and you're the first one to hold it you may feel the same. Maybe you won't. Don't blame yourself if you cannot get over it. What your WW did was unforgivable and a devestating blow that warrants D. But you never know how you'll feel about OC until you bond. If you do decide to accept this child, that means that in the event of a D in the future, you may be financially responsible unless you go to court. So in making this decision, understand that this is a lifelong decision--either to move on to a fresh start, or to embrace a child for life.

Sadly, there are many who have walked in your shoes, RR. You are not alone in this. And either decision you make would be the right one. But you can have a happy M with an OC once you give yourself the time to heal and follow Dr. H's guidelines to help A-proof your M and fall in love again. But if you find it impossible to truly forgive your WW, D may be the best option. The only way BH and I could move forward was through unbelievable forgiveness and willingness to change and make sacrifices. Without it we would have never survived this situation.

We're here for you, RR, along with lots of prayers.
Posted By: RockRat99 Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/18/11 03:22 AM
Thanks so much everyone for your kind and very helpful Q&A - originally she lied and said she had invitro-fert, since we were talking about that anyway, but it was a lie and I saw through it. She admitted the affair about a month ago. I told her ZERO contact with the OM and she agreed. She's been extremely repentant and tells me every day she wants the marriage, that she loves me and me alone and always has. Again, she says she's 100% committed to the marriage and will do whatever it takes to keep 'us' together. But, I guarantee if she had to choose between me and the OC, I'd be out. Honestly I haven't asked, so that's the next step. We see a marriage counselor next Monday.

This week is our 10 year anniversary, so a bit harder this week.

Since the DDay, I found out she's still had some communication with the OM. I found his contact info and told him we would meet, whether or not he agreed. Also told him I would make sure his wife knew. Definitely need to get a lawyer and see where I stand legally. I don't know if the OM wants or expects any contact - need to find that out too. Even if he doesn't, IF I stay in the marriage, I would likely sue him for child support.

Again, thanks so much everyone - I'm so grateful for this resource and for all of you who have responded. Will reply later and answer specific questions to those who've asked.

RockRat
RR, I would inform his wife like YESTERDAY in addition to demanding that your wife end all contact for life. Otherwise this hopeless. In order to ever recover, your wife must agree to end all contact for life with the OM and to give you just compensation. Unless she will do that there is nothing here to save. Adultery is about the worst possible love buster and until she stops and make amends, there is no future.

I would tell his wife with no forewarning whatsoever to your wife.
P.s. I would reconsider going after child support if you decide to stay in the marriage. That will entitle this loser to visitation and keep him hanging around for 18 years. No amount of money is worth that. You will want to do everything in your power to get him out of your lives.
Mel is 100% correct about the child support issue, RR. If you have any desire to save your M, keep OM AWAY! Do not seek cs, do not seek anything from him. If he stays away you can raise the child as your own, which the courts will likely list you as father anyways unless OM contests it. If you push for cs you could end up with a 50/50 arrangment (very common nowadays), which means he could end up paying very little (maybe nothing, if your wife works) and you're forced to deal with him constantly.

Before you meet with OM or make any decisions, please seek MB counsel as we've been through this and can explain the hazards of various options before you walk into them.

Also, my BH (who was in your shoes) has a few questions he advises asking yourself before you decide to stay in M or leave. These questions made it clear to him what the right choice for him was. I'll get those questions for you later, RR, since it may help give you clarity. To be continued...
Posted By: JtotheC Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/18/11 06:35 PM
Man, you're in a tough spot! I feel for you RR. Any insight into why she had the affair? Do you think it was with the express intent of getting pregnant? I ask because it sounds like you two have had an outstanding relationship up until now so it doesn't make sense for her to step out of the marriage if things had been going well. If she did it just to get pregnant, I think you guys would have more of a shot at saving this thing. Since she's 42 and nearing the end of her child bearing years, I wouldn't put it past her to use the affair as a way to have biological children, especially if you have had a vasectomy. I could be totally off base but, it is one of the suspicions I would have if I were in your shoes.

However, at the end of the day, if she doesn't put you before the OC, your marriage is as good as done. You guys need to start POJAing hardcore if you want to salvage it. The problem is, if you demand adoption, at age 42, she probably can't enthusiastically agree to give the baby up. Even if she did, she would resent you making her do it. It's a shame too since there are so many fantastic families that would love to adopt a beautiful baby!
Originally Posted by RockRat99
My wife knew she wanted a child, and after careful consideration, I agreed to bless her with what she wanted/needed. Instead of reversing my vas and going the natural route, we chose adoption. Spent the past 12 months getting trained and licensed through the state. That makes this just that much harder - I was willing to support her need/desire, and raise a child with her. But not this way, not by way of betrayal.

Did WW get pregnant on purpose?
What does she say when asked?
RR, once you get all of the facts from WW, my BH had a list of questions that he asked himself and weighed the answers to when determining whether to work on the M or leave. Here's the questions he asked himself, which we felt may help you figure out what you want:

1. Do you think she will do this again?

2. Has she expressed remorse and a true repentance? Have you seen evidence of change?

3. Are you at all responsible for creating a home environment that would make an A tempting? If so, is that issue fixable or already fixed?

4. Do you still love your wife?

5. Do you still want to raise a child with her?

6. Are you willing to part with your current lifestyle and quality of life? This may include family and friends.

7. Can you accept a life of singlehood if there isn't anyone else out there for you?

These questions may help you see where your heart is at and what the potential for recovery is. I hope this helps, RR.

Also, I highly recommend e-mailing the Harleys and talking to them. They have incredible ability to see into the situation and ask all the right questions to help you.
wanthealing, the most important question is missing and that is: CAN I FORGIVE MY WIFE FOR WHAT SHE HAS DONE?

See, that is the most critical question. Asking himself if he was responsible for creating the environment does not answer that question and is not relevant if he hasn't even decided if he wants the marriage.

I have no doubt he does love his wife, but that is not the issue. The issue is if he can overcome the resentment and continue the marriage under these conditions. His love won't last long if he cannot overcome the resentment. And most people cannot. That is a very individual, personal decision. We all know best what we can or can't tolerate.

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Can you accept a life of singlehood if there isn't anyone else out there for you?

There is always someone else out there. We have so many happily re-married couples on this forum. The Marriage Builders program equips people to make better matches and create much better marriages. I don't want him to be discouraged about the likelihood of finding someone more suitable.
Good points, Mel. I agree that forgiveness is the most important one. These are the questions my BH asked himself when trying to determine what he really wanted, and I'm sure there are many I'm missing (such as the question if he could deal with an OM for the rest of his life), but he wanted to consider all possible outcomes--even an outcome where he didn't end up with someone else. (After all, I believe this is RR's second marriage, so one has to consider why the previous M failed.) There's no guaranteed happily ever after, so each person needs to consider possible realistic outcomes to make an educated decision.

My point is that it's not easy to know what you really want until you start asking yourself things that help guide you along possible acceptible outcomes--with or without WW, with or without OM, single or not.
Originally Posted by wanthealing
(After all, I believe this is RR's second marriage, so one has to consider why the previous M failed.) There's no guaranteed happily ever after, so each person needs to consider possible realistic outcomes to make an educated decision.

It is true there are no guaranteed outcomes, but if he uses this program in his next marriage, he would come pretty close. Just because his last and current marriages were bad, doesn't mean he is damned to repeat those mistakes. He can have a happy marriage in the future without all this baggage. That is a very realistic consideration. For example, I am in my 3rd marriage and it is great because we have implemented this program. His future is very hopeful if he uses this program.
That's true, Mel, and if this is something RR cannot forgive (understandably so) I think he should move on to a more hopeful future. In this case I'm not really for or against the marriage surviving (knowing firsthand how hard it can be to recover from), though I'd love to see them work through this if they can. Ultimately one shouldn't make a decision out of fear of the unknown, but there are practical realities to consider, and that's all my BH was trying to offer. But like you said, if RR applies MB to any future relationship--even this current one--he can have a thriving marriage.
Very good post, Mel. Stated very succinctly why I am here, and I am sure that there are a lot of others here that use the principles here for maintenance as opposed to crisis resolution.
Posted By: RockRat99 Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/22/11 07:17 PM
WantHealing - really looking forward to the questions your BH had that helped - I'm really to the point where I have only one question/decision - keep or quit the marriage. My WW and I just got back from a short trip where we were able to talk, but I'm still clueless as to what to do. We're seeing a marriage counselor in a few hours.

Once again, I can't thank you all enough for responding to my thread - I may not yet have much else to say, but I read and re-read your feedback and advice daily.

RockRat
Posted By: RockRat99 Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/22/11 07:41 PM
Once again I thank you all. I'm liking the conversation between wanthealing and melodylane. For me, this is not about forgiveness, and in fact I gave her my forgiveness once (on D-Day) and will have to again soon as more of the lies have unraveled. For me, this is 100% about Trust. The question is, can I ever trust her again? Not to cheat, but with my heart, soul, vulnerabilities, emotions - MY SAFETY! That's been the hardest pill for me to swallow so far, that I trusted her with my safety (i.e. To not betray me, to not break my heart). Long story, but she's the first to get my heart and she's the first person I trusted with my soul-safety. Lesson learned. Never again, which doesn't bode well for the M outcome.

Quick answer to previous Q - first M was due to pregancy and we were not in love, at all. Tried to do the right thing for the sake of the kids (2). She was on the pill - i believe she went off intentionally to get pregnant. Same with current WW - several of you have asked if she did this to get pregnant - I believe yes, she did absolutely. Anyone else see a trend here? What's wrong with me???

:-(
Posted By: RockRat99 Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/22/11 07:54 PM
Thx for the BH questions wanthealing - very helpful and will consider these and others carefully.

On our trip this past weekend I raised the possibility that in order to keep me, she may have to give up the child. I told her I wasn't giving an ultimatum, but rather giving her something to think about so she can get an accurate feel for how she'd respond to that condition. Also shared about 'just compensation' and started to paint a picture of what I would need from her if I choose to stay.

Off to our first counseling appointment. Will post again after, and as my thoughts and feelings start to come together.

RR
Originally Posted by RockRat99
For me, this is not about forgiveness, and in fact I gave her my forgiveness once (on D-Day) and will have to again soon as more of the lies have unraveled. For me, this is 100% about Trust. The question is, can I ever trust her again?

No, you can't. It was too much trust that led to the affair in the first place. If you had instead relied on appropriate boundaries, the affair could not have taken place. It is not trust that is the problem, but appropriate boundaries. If she is willing to affair proof your marriage in a way that would make it impossible for another affair to happen, you will have a future. But blindly trusting again will be a mistake. You can see how badly that turned out. Check this out:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening. Basing a marriage on the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward preventing an affair. Being each other's favorite leisure-time companions, and not being away from each other overnight are also important safety measures. Meeting each other's most important emotional needs, avoiding Love Busters and building an integrated lifestyle, free of secret second lives, are all ways to affair-proof your marriage. With these measures in place, we end up trusting our spouses because an affair becomes almost impossible to achieve.
here

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Same with current WW - several of you have asked if she did this to get pregnant - I believe yes, she did absolutely. Anyone else see a trend here? What's wrong with me???

:-(

It is really despicable that she did this to you and this makes me question whether you are safe with her. For her to sacrifice YOU for no other reason than she wanted to have a baby is astonishing in its cruelty. It just means that she places her own selfish interests over your marriage.

RR, I should have used the word RESENTMENT instead of forgiveness. That is the basic issue. Whether or not you can overcome resentment. If you can't overcome resentment, then this won't work.

As far as forgiveness, I would hold off on that until and unless she earns it. That is in her interest. And even if you do forgive her, that doesn't mean it is in your best interest to stay married to her. Check this out: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?
RR, Mel is right about the trust/boundaries issue. Since my A I have encouraged BH to "micro-manage" me--my cell phone is open to him, all my computer time is available for him to view, I participate in NO social networking, I account for every place I go, and I call him regularly to show him I'm thinking of him. I don't go out without BH. In fact, we spend so much more quality time together enjoying activities now post-A than we ever did before by following MB. So if you do want to give your M a shot, there is a chance you can be happy--maybe even happier than you've ever been. But to achieve this you will need to build love, keep OM out as much as possible, enforce no contact between WW and OM...and will your WW be willing to be an open book to you about every detail of her life, and are you open to keeping her accountable?

It's not an easy choice, RR, but you won't be wrong in any decision you make. My biggest legal advice, though, is to make a decision before the baby is born so that you can either 1. Be the only dad OC has and raise OC as your own, or 2. Get completely out of the picture so that you're not on the birth certificate or legally or financially responsible (you'd have to ask an attny how to secure this).
Posted By: RockRat99 Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/22/11 10:11 PM
That's perfect and makes perfect sense. I completely understand and agree about trust - I shouldn't have trusted in the first place, and it's MY fault for not setting appropriate boundaries to protect myself and us. On one hand, I'm an extraordinarily gracious man. On the other, I'm also co-dependant. My problem is that I've never established the boundaries you've correctly described between the two, so I set myself up for this. I recognize this as my core issue and just started some personal counseling (just me) to deal with this exact issue.

I also understand and agree with the difference between forgiveness and resentment. I'm a recovering alcoholic and resentment is my (our) #1 critical shortcoming. So yes, I DO forgive her (honestly because I love her and don't want her to live in shame - ultimately I want her to forgive herself), but you are correct, my greatest challenge will be with resentment - against her, and against the OC and what it represents (hate to hold something against an innocent child, but that's how I feel).

Clearly I have a ton of thinking and work yet to do and need/want to get to a decision soon before this all drives me insane. One more question:

Several of you have provided guidance re: the OM, and while I 'get it' I'm also seething with anger!!! How can there be no cost to this person? I want to ruin his life like he's ruined mine! I want to sue him for everything he's got and ruin every aspect of his life - exposing him for the low life homewrecker he is - before he does it again to someone else!!! I will see a lawyer to understand my legal options and positions re: the OC. I don't know who his wife is or how to find her or I'd have already contacted her.

Please advise on how to get through this aspect of this tragedy - please!!!

Today's an especially hard day and I'm wearing thin.....

RR
Posted By: RockRat99 Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/22/11 10:12 PM
Oh - sorry - 29 years sober.....
Posted By: Migs Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/22/11 10:25 PM
RR, depending on what state your in, research alienation of affection and criminal conversation......

also intentional AND negligent infliction of emotional distress..,
Originally Posted by RockRat99
I also understand and agree with the difference between forgiveness and resentment. I'm a recovering alcoholic and resentment is my (our) #1 critical shortcoming. So yes, I DO forgive her (honestly because I love her and don't want her to live in shame - ultimately I want her to forgive herself), but you are correct, my greatest challenge will be with resentment - against her, and against the OC and what it represents (hate to hold something against an innocent child, but that's how I feel).

But keep in mind that sometimes resentment is our internal warning that something is very wrong. It is not a shortcoming to recognize that certain things need to be avoided. I am not saying that is necessarily the case here, but if you can't overcome resentment it won't be because of a personal shortcoming, but because this is beyond what most people could or would personally endure. There is NO VIRTUE in staying in an situation that will eternally trigger your resentment. That is just stupid. Keep in mind that this is the one sin that God allows divorce over.

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Several of you have provided guidance re: the OM, and while I 'get it' I'm also seething with anger!!! How can there be no cost to this person? I want to ruin his life like he's ruined mine! I want to sue him for everything he's got and ruin every aspect of his life - exposing him for the low life homewrecker he is - before he does it again to someone else!!! I will see a lawyer to understand my legal options and positions re: the OC. I don't know who his wife is or how to find her or I'd have already contacted her.

I would find out right away who she is and contact her. You can usually easily find this information on the internet. And I would not forewarn your wife. Tell her afterwards. In most cases, Dr Harley recommends exposing the affair wide and far. In this case, you have to be a little more strategic, because if you decide to stay and the OM signs away his rights to the child, you don't really want to have to battle with the OM's family. So for now, find his wife and let her know. That is the right and the decent thing to do...for EVERYONE.

Most lawyers will tell you to keep quiet. That is only because they are lazy and want as little trouble as possible. But that is the wrong thing to do. The OM's wife has been harmed behind her back and she needs to be informed. It is the same principle as your neighbors' bookkeeper embezzling her money. You surely would warn her so she could protect herself. Your wife and the OM are the embezzlers.

You might also consider suing the OM for alienation of affection, but you have other issues to deal with now.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/22/11 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by RockRat99
That's perfect and makes perfect sense. I completely understand and agree about trust - I shouldn't have trusted in the first place, and it's MY fault for not setting appropriate boundaries to protect myself and us. On one hand, I'm an extraordinarily gracious man. On the other, I'm also co-dependant. My problem is that I've never established the boundaries you've correctly described between the two, so I set myself up for this. I recognize this as my core issue and just started some personal counseling (just me) to deal with this exact issue.

I also understand and agree with the difference between forgiveness and resentment. I'm a recovering alcoholic and resentment is my (our) #1 critical shortcoming. So yes, I DO forgive her (honestly because I love her and don't want her to live in shame - ultimately I want her to forgive herself), but you are correct, my greatest challenge will be with resentment - against her, and against the OC and what it represents (hate to hold something against an innocent child, but that's how I feel).

Clearly I have a ton of thinking and work yet to do and need/want to get to a decision soon before this all drives me insane. One more question:

Several of you have provided guidance re: the OM, and while I 'get it' I'm also seething with anger!!! How can there be no cost to this person? I want to ruin his life like he's ruined mine! I want to sue him for everything he's got and ruin every aspect of his life - exposing him for the low life homewrecker he is - before he does it again to someone else!!! I will see a lawyer to understand my legal options and positions re: the OC. I don't know who his wife is or how to find her or I'd have already contacted her.

Please advise on how to get through this aspect of this tragedy - please!!!

Today's an especially hard day and I'm wearing thin.....

RR

See a lawyer for your legal protection.

However if the OM does not know he got your WW pregnant it maybe better to not go after the OM for CS. Once that door is open many OM will go after some form of custody. This will make NC very difficult.

So when going after the OM to punish him you will punish yourself by keeping the OM in your lives.

Did you straihgt out ask WW what she would do if you can't raise OC?

You need WW to answer this.

Remember there is nothing wrong with recovering or divorcing. Same goes for the decision to be the OC's dad.

I remember a WW, don't remember her name but she said that her BH decided to recover but refused to be the OC's dad and said he would not help raise the OC. WW and OC came home from the hospital. WW was in the shower. The OC started crying. BH picked up the OC to stop it from crying. That moment made the BH bound to the OC.
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Remember there is nothing wrong with recovering or divorcing. Same goes for the decision to be the OC's dad.

I remember a WW, don't remember her name but she said that her BH decided to recover but refused to be the OC's dad and said he would not help raise the OC. WW and OC came home from the hospital. WW was in the shower. The OC started crying. BH picked up the OC to stop it from crying. That moment made the BH bound to the OC.

Exactly right. You don't have to decide right now but you do need to know your legal rights regarding the OC. Get that part taken care.

It was pops that fell in love with OC when he had to pick her up to stop her from crying.
Posted By: Gamma Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/23/11 12:32 AM
Rockrat,

There are advantages to getting the OM to take the OC, in that the OC would grow up with his/her half-siblings, did you consider that approach?

If you are going to keep the OC, I would advise you to get as much money from the OM as possible, it will help OC when college time rolls around and you are in your 70's.

I was a OC too, the child of the OM, and in my case the family broke up after adopting me out to another family. My first legal father was never able to cope with the betrayal, it was just too much.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: RockRat99 Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/23/11 02:59 AM
Once again thanks for helping keep my mind straight in this crooked time. Will talk to a lawyer this week. OM does know, and WW thinks he doesn't want any participation, but I personally want this in writing IF WW and I stay together. Someone said early on to not go by word of mouth, but to make sure legal ends are tied off permanantly.

State is AZ if anyone is familiar with state law here in the wild west.

Just got back from first marriage counseling (MC? I'm still learning this entire new language :-) and the topic of what my WW would do if I said no to the OC came up. Doubtful she'd let the child go, which I wrote about last week. If it were a decision, I'd be on the short straw, which would be OK I guess.

Posted By: TheRoad Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/23/11 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by faithful follower
Exactly right. You don't have to decide right now but you do need to know your legal rights regarding the OC. Get that part taken care.

It was pops that fell in love with OC when he had to pick her up to stop her from crying.

The story I remember was told by a WW. Pop's WW? Maybe yes/no.
Posted By: pops Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/27/11 04:58 AM
thanks faith and roads,,, that is what happened to me.

very briefly i had always been very active and touchy with my w during her preg's and when the kids were very little. i they cried at 2 am even tho they were sleeping on the w's side of the bed it was me that would get up go around and get them up to bring the little th my w for her feedings.

i was determined to make my w care for this baby on her own. until that day about 2 weeks after bringing her home.

rat... i will try and get some time this weekend to read up on your sit and see if i can add any insight from my experience
Posted By: pops Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/27/11 05:54 AM
rat

i wanted to add something to show how adament i was about not being able to bond with our oc

with our other 6 kids in the delivery rom i was almost pushing the dr out of the way wanting to deliver them myself. couldn't wait to get my hands on our new little angel.

with the oc, while i was in the room i wanted nothing to do with the birth. i was merely the camera man for my w. had no interest in holding the baby, had no interest in cutting the cord - which the dr's and nr's all thought was strange since we had had all the kids with the same dr group and hew many of the delivery nr's

i may be the odd one out here but i do understand your w's attitude about not being able to give up the child. AND i don't necessarily think that means she is choosing between you and the child.

if she is truly remorseful and has given up all contact with om then i can see where a woman would have that eternal bond to the child she is carrying. her ability to love HER child unconditionaly is probably one of the reasons YOU love her.

she most likely sees this as HER child alone. i do see where she can want both you and the oc

here's another off beat thought.

1st it is mandatory that you consult a GOOD family lawyer and find out excatly what you rights are AND what kind of time line you have to contest perternity

after all that is done you can always try and work thru this with your w and the oc. if it goes south you can always walk away with your head held high that you did all you could to try and recover your marriage
I grew up in AZ. Sorry you find yourself here. My FWH got a 40 year old married women pregnant. She planned it because her 63 year old husband wouldn't let her have a baby and her clock was running out. It is easier from this side than your side. We are NC with OW and OC. FWH pays his CS and health insurance.

That said, most OM don't keep out of your M when they think that they are the bio. father of the OC. If you seek CS you are condemming the rest of your life to OM's presence in your life. Not only would he pay CS, he might want visitation, to show up at graduation and weddings, etc. If he is unaware of the pregnancy then I would reveal the A to his wife, send a NC letter and keep quite about the pregnancy.

You can choose to walk away from this M today, next month, or in two years. Many states give you a 2 year time line to determine paternity. Check with your attorney to determine about keeping your name off the birth certificate and when you would have to establish that you are not the father for the courts not to hold you liable for CS in the future if you D.

Keep in mind, POPS is in love with his little one now. If you stay and bond with this OC, which is more important to you, no CS for the OC or NC with OC after a D in the future. You were willing to adopt a child with your wife. This is NOT the way you wanted a child to come into your life. I get it, (we are NC 100% and OC is not welcome into our lives anymore than OW is...it is what it is) However, if you do the readings here, if your wife is willing to be on board to using the MB's principles to recover your M, then you can rebuild and recover, and you will have the child that you agreed to seek out and have with your wife. Not the OC's fault where it came from, your wife's fault.

An OC in your life, physically present or not, is always with you. It doesn't go away, but it's importance fades to almost unawareness as you recover and heal.

best wishes,
Fled
Originally Posted by RockRat99
Just got back from first marriage counseling (MC? I'm still learning this entire new language :-) and the topic of what my WW would do if I said no to the OC came up. Doubtful she'd let the child go, which I wrote about last week. If it were a decision, I'd be on the short straw, which would be OK I guess.

RR, please be very wary about anything this MC tells you. There are very few good ones, but the majority are destructive to marriages. Ifnyour instincts tell you something is wrong, they are probably right. Cmpare what he/she says to Dr Harleys advice, because he has successfully saved thousands of these marriages. His advice is very different from most, though because he uses logic and reason; his ideas work.

In fact, I would strongly advise you to email dr Harley on the radio show and get his input. It is free and he is far and away the best in the business. You can get to him via the radio link at the top of the page. He can help you make the right decision and give you a PLAN.
Posted By: pops Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 08/28/11 06:44 AM
rr

i agree with melody that be very careful what your mc is telling you. we tried 3 during our recovery efforts. the 1st was full of pucky and the other 2 were ok. the one full of it was very early on just prior to my w's actual start of the PA and i still blame his incompetance as a major reason she ended up in the PA

on the cs issue be careful there also. we were close to you and your w's age when this struck us. me about 3 younger then you and my w about 3 older then yours.

the decision for cs was made for several reasons. our ages, my family health issues, our financial situation, what would happen if my w had to support teh kids in the event i was disabilitated, and the want to make om pay for his crime.

the thing i didn't see coming was how difficult it would be if om took visitation (which he did) on both my w and oc.

for that reason i wish i had not sought the cs. i actually gave the om the choice of walking away and dropping the cs but he turned it down.

things have smoothed out now and we have had few problems with the visits for the past 2 1/2 - 3 years. but we are over 10 years into this

when we left the hospital there was no name on the b-cert. my told them that i was not the father and she did not know who the faher was

lastly whether you stay married or D this will stay with you. we can't change the past. how you handle it and move forward is what matters.

i have to say that when this 1st struck me it was the most painful experience i had ever had. but as time went on and the healing started i realized that there are many things in life that made me count my blessings.

i was able to realize who i was on a deeper level. how strong i could be, how much compassion i had in me, how much i truly loved my w and how much forgiveness i had in me. all blessings from God

In my personal experience- loving and raising the OC is the easy part. Recovering the marriage and maintaining a recovered marriage is the terribly difficult part.
Posted By: loves2011 Re: Can't live with the Illegitimate Child - 10/13/11 06:00 PM
i just wanted to tell you it may be possible for you to love the OC. My husband loves OC, but is having a hard time dealing with me and my past. Just wanted to let you know.
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