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Since I don't start my new job until next Monday, I have had a lot of time to myself these past few weeks. Today I had my hair trimmed and highlighted and I have spent far too much time in front of the mirror today trying to determine if this is a good look for me or not. I sat in the chair in front of the tv this afternoon and surfed for a bit waiting for Dr. Phil on Oprah and happened on Sally Jesse. I hate her show because it's kind of smarmy. But, today was different.A young woman who was about to be married. She was happy and had lot's of good things going on in her life but to make it complete, she deeply desired meeting her father and had tried for years to find him to no avail.Well, Sally's staff found him and surprised her by having him on her show. The reunion between the two of them tore my heart out. They were both so moved at finally finding one another after so many years, they just kept crying and hugging each other and were absolutely joyful. I was caught up in the moment with them and so happy for both of them that they had this chance to be together. After the 'glow' of happiness I felt for them was interrupted by commercial, I began to worry about my husband's situation and his OC someday feeling as intensely about finding her father as this young woman felt.I read about all you amazing women here on this site who are bravely, lovingly and generously including the OC in their lives, seeking custody in bad situations, and feel so ashamed I feel so completely adverse to any contact on any level.While I feel somewhat bad the OC will probably never know her father, I am adamant about no contact and I know I always will be...bordering on phobia over it.I am absolutely terrified and threatened by OC existance and feel she has no right to even exist. And as awful as that sounds, I also live in fear of her wanting contact when she is older like this young woman on tv today.What's wrong with me that I can't stomach the thought of this child even being on the face of this earth? While I wish her no ill will, I wish she didn't exist, that the affair never happened and feel OW had no right at all to bring that kid into this world by my husband, let alone get knocked up to begin with.I got so angry later today, both at my husband, at OW and myself for this entire mess and for making me feel so ugly about what they did and the final outcome of all of it. I resent she picks our pocket every month to the tune of $1300 that leaves us with next to nothing to survive. I resent that I have changed so much because of it and that this situation has revealed a side to me I never knew existed. I often wonder how I would see a person with my rigid views fi this had happened to someone else and I were just an observer, not knowing first hand what this feels like.By staying with me, my husband cannot have contact. If he would ever want contact, he would have to be alone without me. And I hate that I feel so strongly about this and that these are the rules. It makes me feel so dictatorial or something.If any of you knew me before all this happened, well, you would definitely not recognize me. I never ever mandated anything on anyone. I was so easy going...live and let live, accepting and open. Now I am just so rigid in the way it has to be. Fortunately for me, my husband absolutely insists he wants nothing to do with that and he made his choice long ago to stay with me and continue our marriage.The 22nd is our 22nd anniversary and I am not comfortable. I am constantly second guessing whether or not I can continue with him. We are supposed to move into our new place together on 4-4 and I am wondering if I should let him. My gut is telling me I shouldn't because I don't believe anything he says. I keep thinking that he acts and sounds exactly as he did for all those years before the affair and if he could do this to me when we were so conencted and happy, he could do this to me again. I am not even taking the bipolar-alcohol thing into the equation...I am simply thinking about the bond we had, the vows he broke and for what? None at all.If we never would have been so 'us' for all those years, if it had been bad or lacking or distant or something that would have made me say, "Oh well, this is why it happened! No wonder! I wasn't doing this or that." But, none of it can be said and that is why I am so steamed. End of tangent. Thanks for your tolerance of my rant. There is no point ot any of it. This has mostly been free flowing anxiety because very soon we are going to be sleeping in the same bed again and living under the same roof again and next weekend we are going to a hotel and I guess, I am scared. Scared he doesn't "really" mean it. Maybe I just don't want to waste my time on something I can't be sure of now. I don't know. Thanks again for bearing with me and my ugly attitudes.Catnip =^^=

Well, I would hope that OC would be considerate of your H's wishes NOT to be found... Evidently the dad who agreed to meet with his bio daughter on the Sally show didn't mind having been found by his daughter...God has a plan for anyone born on earth, regardless of how they got here. Especially OCs who come into the world in the most adverse circumstances. There is a higher purpose for any OC's existence... There MUST be. Because you are right, it is NOT God's idea for any child to come into this world that way--through adultery... Maybe it would help if you view it that way--as God having a plan and seeing the big picture HE has for the OC's life? You know, to be able to at least (in your mind) allow the OC to live and be able to just plain accept OC's existence... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Maybe?The CS amount you are paying is unacceptable. That much money leaving your family budget every month is outrageous. Personally, I'm asking the Lord to do something about that asap... Un-believable...I wonder if, because you actually took the trip to visit the OW and experienced all that emotion early on, perhaps that contributed to your discomfort with any contact. I know it would mine, IF I were in your shoes. Then again, I don't know if I would have the nerve to go face OW and spend time with her like you did. Pretty gutsy move.Nevertheless, your H has the RIGHT not to want to be found. Maybe we can pray for OC to have a stable life full of love and contentment and enough adults in her life contributing to her fulfilment. Perhaps one day, if not today, you can arrive to the point where you are willing to pray for the OC... At least you won't live in a sort of a prison of fear regarding her existance(?) if that is the case? Prayer would be a way of releasing the OC into God's hands. He can take better care of OC's than anyone! Then, OC would be God's problem forever and not yours (to worry about)! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Wow, catnip, you know, that Sally show--seems to me it's just another one of those triggers popping up to haunt you right at a time when you are about to take a leap of faith and move back in with your H. Probably 99.5% of what you fear won't even come to pass. Only the Good Lord knows what the future has in store for us all. "What if" thinking can be so damaging to enjoying the present moment. You could be celebrating your anniversary. Sure there have been lots of bumps, but I know there have been many happy times too. I know because you've written about some of those happy times right here on this board!Thanks for sharing your heart. I don't believe you can continue your relationship with your H without feeling like you are taking a big risk each and every minute you decide to trust him with your life. Oh well... no guts no glory, right?![ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]

Catnip, It is very understandable that contact with the OC would be a constant reminder of the A. It seems you are already having a hard time dealing with things even without having this child in your life. I agree with BTDT, God must have a plan for these children. I like to think so in the case of my daughter. Maybe she will find a cure for cancer, be first woman president, or even just have the opportunity to save someones life someday. I think the child support you pay is disgusting!! I get $90 a week or $360 a month. How on earth did the courts come up with that amount?? Please give your H the chance to show that he "means it". A lot of us WSs really do. Sometimes it takes almost losing what you have to realize just how much it means to you. Allow yourself the chance to be happy again.BTW I bet your hair looks great!! And stay away from Sally Jesse!!

Dear Catnip,
Totally understandible feelings.
This has been a very trying month in our lives as well.
I have been trying to accept these 2OC in my life but it is so difficult. I constant reminder of why they are in my life is ever present. I too often have those thoughts wishing they did not exist, which makes me feel like an absolute horrible person. The stress of H losing his job over this A, while OW gets to keep hers is putting me over the edge. We are dealing with attorneys, but there is no recourse, accept the severence package and get out. Meanwhile our cs payments will continue at 1,500 per month, until severence runs out. I am at my emotional breaking point. I have put to my H the past week "what if I can not deal with this visitation anymore"? He keeps telling me that is why we are going to therapy, so I can deal with it. I understand so much the change in personality. I used to be a trusting, caring, person who was so happy with my life. Now the sight of fathers cuddling babies sends a wave of depression through me. Watching my H interacting with the 2oc is so difficult. He keeps waiting for the magical 2 year point to come where everything will be fine, and no more grieving. Two more months till our daughters wedding. I hardly have the energy or desire to plan this event. I hope your anniversary will be the start to making pleasant memories for the future. Tina

BTDTI woke up this morning with the intention of deleting this post. I was laying in bed thinking too much again, and projecting ahead too far again and mused that I have been on the board for nearly three years and it doesn't seem I have progressed much.Then I read your post and know that you truly understand. Making that spontaneous trip out to meet OW was a good thing....really it was. I confronted the demons that were preventing me from moving ahead with the recovery at the time. I just had to meet this person that was so successful at turning my husband's head. I mean, I thought she must really, really be something special if he would abandon me for her. I'll never forget how flabbergasted I was when I met her.The young woman on the Sally show was so completely determined to meet her father. Her longing for this meeting and for a relationship is what got to me. I realized that other people's feelings are as strong/intense as mine are...including OC's. Your advice to turn this over to the Lord and just know He will take care of her is exactly what I have to do. I can't think about OC or her feelings or what they will be somedday because I can't afford to feel any tenderness or care for her or her needs. Sometimes I find myself worrying about OC and wondering about her and feel a certain tenderness toward her that does nothing but make me feel guilty that I am the one standing in the way of her relationship with her father.I know Bipolar says he has no desire to have contact, never thinks of her and says she isn't real to him because he never saw OW pregnant nor has he ever seen OC, but that in itself was calculated because I went to great lengths to make sure/manipulate the situation by rescheduling court dates so he wouldn't see her pregnant. When court finally came I insisted that she be restricted from bringing OC to court saying I was the one who couldn't take her presence, while this is true, the real reason was so my husband wouldn't catch a glimpse of her.I've never admitted this before and I vascillate between being ashamed at my obvious fear, the perceived threat to me and to my marriage and manipulating the situation and feeling entirely justified to do whatever I must to preserve what is mine. Bipolar comes from a large family and I have watched his sweetness and tenderness with his other children and his deep love for his granddaughter that is just two years older than OC. I keep hoping that his granddaughter gives him whatever is missing because of no contact with OC. If you saw him with babies and children, you wouldn't believe him either when he says he has no interest in OC. Of course, I also thinks he equates OC with the most horrendous time in our lives and represents a shame he has great difficulty living with. He seems to deeply want things to be as they were and it seems he is more successful at putting the past behind him than I am. He doesn't see my fear and pain because I hide it very well. I do tell him sometimes what I am thinking and my fears when the opportunity arises, but I make sure this is not something discussed on a daily, weekly or even monthly basis. In fact, he seems to want to talk about it more than I do and I ask him not to because I get so upset. This support issue is our next hurdle. We have not been able to appeal it or fight it until now because we have not had the money to pay off our accountant to do two years of complicated tax returns due to the fact we have owed him a couple thousand dollars for a couple years. So, naturally, tax man was reluctant to finish them for us worried he wouldn't get paid. Because Bipolar works at least 20 hours overtime on top of his 40 hour work week just so we have some revenue coming in, we have been able to pay off accountant. Now our taxes are almost finished which will give us ample ammunition to present our records to the courts and prove to them we don't have anything like they think we do and insist the arrears be adjusted retroactively and the payments reduced significantly to a fair and just amount. And they better not calculate his current overtime into the mix and just look at his base pay because he is older now and can't be working all those gruelling hours just to send OW exorbitant amounts of money. No one should have to put in more than 40 hours a week just to make ends meet.The woman I am living with was married to her husband for 15 years and had four children with him. When they divorced, she was awarded a measly $550 per month.My other friend was married to her husband for five years and when divorced she was awarded $500 per month for one child. She never received the payments and when they went to court, she made a deal with her ex and forgave the arrears that had accumulated.Another friend had a child in college with another student. They both went on to become extremely successful people in the business world and my friend and her son have never received one dime of support, not one phone call, card or acknowledgment from the father. She never went after him for support because she had too much pride and knew she could take care of her son on her own. Today the son is a successful busienss man in a successful marriage.I was married before to my son's dad and never received one nickel support and we survived just fine.I must know at least 20 women who never got any support, raising their chidlren alone without any help and everyone of those kids turned out to be well adjusted, decent and productive adults...not one of them wanted for anything. All their needs were met from shelter, clothing and food to love, family and community.Why the courts extort such huge amounts of money to pay off a total stranger to provide for someone in such grand fashion, I will never understand. The OW has to have a place to live whether she has a kid or not. That's HER repsonsibility. As far as support for a kid, I raised three kids on a few hundered a month for food, clothes and extras. Kids, especially babies, don't cost that much to raise. The way the courts are calculating this has me so outraged, it has clouded my thinking towards other areas where I may have been more "kind". I'll try to look at the big picture, BTDT, and pray for OC and leave it at that. I will try to not do "what if" thinking because, you are right, it si damaging and counterproductive. I appreciate so much your reply and sound advice and genuine care more than you know. Thanks.And thanks WIB for your support and kind words. I will give Bipolar the chance to prove he means it...with as much trust as I can muster. I know if he would have been more consistent to begin with after discovery and not had all those relapses, I wouldn't be so skittish. I will try to be aware of this and not be so guarded. Tina, I am praying for you, Dear. You are facing such hurdles, I know. I will pray you will be able to focus on the wedding and not let these events of the past few years take from you something so special as your child's wedding. Don't let it.I'm going out today to have some fun and lighten up. I think I will stay off the computer for a day and try to feel normal.Love you guysThanksCatnip =^^=

{{{{{{{{Catnip}}}}}flip that hair with some attitude girl, I betcha it looks great!!!!!!Peace!

Catnip,You post really made me want to reply. I have so many similar feeling. When H and I first talked about the affair and OC I told him I didn't care to hear about her or to even hear her name. I have no desire to be a part of her life in anyway! H (remember has 2 other children with this OW from before we married). He visits every two weeks and follows the plan we(me)agreed to. I don't care if he visits, is a part of their lives but I don't want them involved in my life or my son's. (I've got a lot to work out on that issue..they are just not the kind of children I would even allow him to be friends with. I told my H as far as I am concerned they are not his sisters, but rather his other children and never the "twain" shall meet!) I have a difficult time dealing with these awful feelings I have because in every other aspect of my life I am a very nice person...this is just too much for me. It seems of all the messages I've read from others I'm the only one in this situation (H having children with OW before the affair...so dealing with this is so hard)On another note from your second post. When I was 19 years old and a freshman in college I got pregnant. (both of us were single) My dd is now almost 22 years old. I never got nor did I ask for 1 cent of child support. I raised her myself,
spent 10 years earning my degree and working to get the job that I've dreamed of. She is now a hard working adult herself. She had never met her father, nor does she want to..and if she did it wouldn't be a happy time for him!
I thank you for your honesty sharing your feelings all the time.Take care,
Why

Dear catnip,
No, you're not standing in the way of OC having a father because you see, OC's MOM took care of that by getting pregnant by a married man who already had a family... SHE is the one who stood in the way of giving that child a "proper" life. You have nothing to feel guilty for. You have my permission to let yourself off the hook for once and for all! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

p.s. Good luck on your new job. You must be feeling the pressure and uncertainty of that when all these emotions hit you at once. Starting a new job is scary. I hope you like it and I hope that the people are nice and easy to get along with and willing to help you. AND I hope that there are some nice places to go for lunch! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks for your comforting words. It has made all the difference in the world today. I should know better than to write when my mood is so negative, because, today...well, like Scarlett...tomorrow is another day.The sun is out and my mood is better...must be suffering from light deprivation. While I am still feeling a lot of fear, I am better.Thank you again...so much.LoveCatnip =^^=

Hi Catnip, Long time, no post (on my part.) It's soooo good to see your posts again. I lurk constantly, but seldom post. My situation is very complicated (as is yours), and I ususally don't have the emotional energy to put thoughts into words. Lurking, however, gives me a measure of strength and some understanding as I try to deal with this ongoing ordeal.As I mentioned to you ages ago when I first came to this board, our situations are remarkably similar, which is one reason that I am particularly interested in your words of wisdom....and I do mean WISDOM. You so often articulate exactly what I am thinking and feeling. I, too, am 3+ years into recovery and still wrestle with so many issues. In my heart of hearts, I believe that the only way to finding some measure of true peace in my life is so remove my H permanently from it, but I am not prepared to do that, at least for now. I suspect you feel somewhat the same. I was particularly interested in one of your recent comments about focusing on yourself and living YOUR life and how that attitude has seemed to change Bipolar's reaction to you. I am trying to think in those terms too now, but it's not easy, since old habits die hard, and I have never focused on me and my needs first.We have been married nearly 27 years...Affair last 5 or so years. I have one son from a brief marriage in my late teens, and present H was and is the only real father older son ever had, since my first H left us as soon as I had put him through college. (Incidentally, my first H also never paid a dime of CS, yet I somehow managed to support myself and my son and put myself through college, which makes me deeply resent the big bucks we must now pay in CS to OW.) We have regular visitation with OC who is now 3. OC and I have developed a close bond, and I must admit I have grown to love her. She responds to me lovingly as well, and sometimes calls me "mommy" accidentally. The contact-with-OC part has become ok after a year and a half of regular visits, but it was very tough at first. The contact-with-OW part, however, is NOT ok, and is a source of major conflict in our marriage. Although I am convinced that the A is over (in fact, I think OW is getting married this summer), I am still hyper-sensitive and hyper-vigilant about everything having to do w/OW.As you mentioned, one of the most difficult things about all this is how I have changed as a person. I, too, have always been a "live and let live" kind of gal. I was always proud of my patient, tolerant nature, but that is all gone now. I am no longer patient with others and quite intolerant of thoughtlessness, ill-mannered behavior, and stressful situations. As a result, I have managed to alienate friends, family members, and professional colleagues. The upside to that is, feeling as I now do, I really don't care anymore. But I wish I did.I miss the person I used to be, just as I miss the relationship with my H that I thought we had. I know, I know...I've read the books and heard the advice. Yes, we still CAN have a good relationship etc., etc. and marriages do survive and flourish after an affair. But, in my opinion, all that "flourishing" is more likely and infinitely easier to achieve if the marriage hasn't existed as long as ours. Know what I mean, Vern? Well, now that I've rambled on, I have forgotten the point I wanted to make. Oh, well. It's good to read your thoughts, Catnip. Hang in there, kiddo.
I love ya!!Love,
anniem

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by anniem:
I was particularly interested in one of your recent comments about focusing on yourself and living YOUR life and how that attitude has seemed to change Bipolar's reaction to you. I am trying to think in those terms too now, but it's not easy, since old habits die hard, and I have never focused on me <hr></blockquote>I love you, too, anniem. We go way back and we do seem to live a parallel life in so many ways.The only difference I see is that my husband's affair lasted only three weekends and I wonder if that is why there is no contact with OC, while your husband must feel more of an obligation because the affair lasted longer. anniem, I don't know how you do it, but you are. I am absolutely sure I would not, but then, I said I would never stay married to a man who cheated on me...and I never did before now.In fact, EVERYONE I have ever been involved with has been unfatithful to me. I came to this realization a few months ago and was stunned that this is true. It made me realize it said a lot more about me and my choices and obvious lack of self esteem to get a nice guy to begin with. That being said, the one of the biggest reasons I married Bipolar was because of his desperation to have a marriage based on fidelity because his first wife's notorious and painful cheating. I truly, truly believed with all my heart and soul, that this was one thing I would never, ever have to worry about, something he would never ever do, and that I could (and did) endure anything as long as there was fidelity. I guess that's why I have become such an angry, angry person with such a nasty edge. I was duped into thinking this was it! I would finally get a huge payoff, fidelity, in this marriage, this relationship and somehow God was rewarding me for staying faithful to Him throughout my painful beginnings. No matter what happened to me in my past, I stayed faithful and sweet, caring and loving through all the pain and hurts of the past. When this happened three and a half years ago, it was just too, too much to bear. So I have carried this anger, disappointment and resentment all this time, and this time I am unable to shake it. In fact, I never harbored such terrible feelings in the past. I can see that most of the women here who are young and loving, heartbroken but sweet, accepting of OC situations (if they must) are probably just experiencing infidelity for the first time. I remember feeling and saying the same things they do when my first husband cheated on me repeatedly when I was pregnant with our son. But, back then, being very young and a lot more beautiful, I also knew I had a lot more options. I could start over and find happiness because I had lots and lots of time. I don't feel like that anymore because I am now at the half century mark and have maybe 25 to 35 years left on this planet. Not a lot of time to make things good, not a lot of time to find peace and harmony.It's weird but I had peace, harmony, closeness and fidelity for so many years with Bipolar yet I never ever took it for granted. I was soooo grateful for it and thanked God often for it because of what I had endured early in my life.In reference to your above quoted statement, all I can say about that is that's true. I have been feeling that way for quite a while until I got a bad case of the negs the day before yesterday. I have been almost meek asking Bipolar if he was sure he wanted to go away this weekend. I have spent way too much time analyzing this but I have come to the conclusion that when Bipolar is tired and remote from working 12 to 14 hours a day and we don't see each other or he doesn't call or come by because he needs to sleep, I start getting paranoid that he doesn't want to be with me...that he is lying to me or that he has an agenda. If he isn't constantly telling me how much he loves me, I automatically assume he has 'changed his mind' about us and our future.Fortunately, or unfortunately, I have become a consumate actress portraying a cavalier attitude but I know that one can almost always "feel" the truth, so my inadvertant 'dishonesty' borne out of fear and rejection will somehow be revealed unless I get real again and stop fearing the future. And then, poor Bipolar. He isn't sure what's going on anymore. I must be sending double messages and I know one of the biggest reasons for all this confusion lately is that we have absolutely NO TIME to discuss US. We have had no time to do anything but try to survive, never mind trying to discuss what we think, feel and want to ourselves and each other. Just eat, sleep, work.This weekend is NOT the time to have meaty heart to hearts about anything. We hardly have any money to do this weekend...it's the proverbial we can't afford it, and we cannot afford NOT to. Either way, I am not shelling out $200 on a room to have us end up in an emotional meltdown where neither of us are having fun. I have to put all the emotional baggage in storage for the weekend and just have fun. You should see my hair. I hate it, he loves it. I have always had long dark hair, now it is streaked with blond highlights and now I look like everyone else who colors their hair. Ugh. One thing about maintaining your own stuff is that it is your own stuff, your own style. I felt like a fraud doing this because I love authenticity. Doc suggested I flip it with attitude so this morning during coffee with Bipolar, I flipped my head back trying to look sexy and banged the back of my head into the kitchen cabinet. He strained to not laugh and act concerned.Anyway, anniem, I guess we are simpatico, n'est pas? It is so good talking to you again...it's been ages. Love,Catnip =^^=[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: catnip ]

CatnipWe need to work on this hair flipping girl!!!!
I have to admit...I just sprayed coffee all over my monitor reading that [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Low self esteem seems to be a common bond we all have.I have wondered if that was one of the reasons he sought out another person. But come to find out this OW's self esteem is way lower than I could ever be. I think he like's his Knight in shining armor role.We're addressing that, as he always seems to have women coming to him for advice and support....UGH. But it was one of the things that attracted me to him.
As far as not having a lot of time left...Hon, you have to make the best of what time you do have.BTW I am not one of those younger women,I'm <cringing>middle aged. I've been around the block a few times, and experienced infidelity in a previous marriage.Now I'm off to find my own attitude...and have the gray taken out...so I to ca flip my hair with attitude!!!
Hang in therepeace!Peace

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Hi Catnip, Thanks for your response. I am smiling because I have this mental picture of you bangng your head while trying the famous "Sex in the City" toss of the head. A similar thng happened to me in the fitting room at Victoria's Secret when I tried on a push up gel bra. OH MY GOD. Even gel can't win against gravity. I don't now what I expected, since I am 53 and went braless for most of the 60s.
*sigh*I'm relieved to hear you confess that you sometimes feel less than authentic...me too. I tell myself (and sometimes H) than I am a "together" person and do not need him for day to day survival. I make more money than he does (especially after the CS is deducted), have a better personal and professional reputation, have a clear conscience, and am respected by our family, friends, and sons. In short, in every area I wold be 100% better off without him. So what do I stay? Damned if I know! I've always thought love, but when I voiced ths comment to a counselor once, he said, "Could it be habit rather than love?" Maybe. Sounds as if you are in the same spot.I, too, thought I had found my "knight" when I married my H. He was always so loving and devoted--even when the A was going on. Counselor's observation was the he has a Narcissistic Personality Disorder which I have researched extensively. While H meets many of the personality and behavior criteria for NPD, some he doesn't meet. But I am, at the very least, dealing with a man with some narcissistic characteristics. Why do I stay? Why?Ugh. I hate this. I just want it all to go away. I know that is the unhealthy attitude of an immature, unrealistic person, but I want a life...a real life. A life free of attorneys, child support, ugly confrontations, continual suspicians and fidelity worries, and all the other crapola that goes with this situation.I'll close for now. Wish I had some chocolate cake. 
xoxox
anniem

i can really relate to this thread. the contact issue hurts, but it is a part of my life now. i also wonder what happened to the happy positive person that i used to be.i know in my head what the kids need. and i know in my heart that what i want is very different. i am stuck. last night husband saw my pain and said do you want to take them back? i didn't answer (i don't see really how we could take them back and back is not exactly where they should be, but do they have to be with us????????) he doesn't understand how i could hurt so much over a child. he adores children and he totally disassociates these children with his affair. not me, i see a reminder of the worst time in my life. i feel guilty for thinking so badly of a child. i don't blame the child...really. but i do feel like i am paying (not him) for husband's mistake. literally.and i no longer trust. i always look for other motives in most everyone. and i am bitter about many things. i feel like i have lost out and that so many choices have been forced upon me so i am no longer happy go lucky. (in college they used to meanly call me pollyanna.) la-ti-da la-de-da. not anymore.i used to think that happiness was a choice and i would tell people to buck up and work hard for what they want. success comes in cans, etc. that never give up attitude got mowed over gradually as i realized that in order to do what i thought was right, i had to give up what i wanted. i guess it's which do i want more, to do the right thing or to be happy. well, thanks for giving me such a wonderful choice there hubby. it stinks. i'm holding on to one thought...
a long time ago i met a guy over the phone through my job and we clicked. we decided to meet and date. and my question to him was, but what if you don't like the way i look? and he had a terrific answer. he said it doesn't matter what you or i look like. if we are meant to be together, then God will make us attractive to the other. it's kinda the same thing here- it doesn't matter if this is something i want or not. if it is meant to be, then God will change my attitude and make it so i can be happy with it. if God directs us toward contact, then He will give the peace. and i'm praying for more peace in our house. i feel peace about the situation, i'm just having trouble being a player in this story. this may be a long road, but i do want to be happy again.

Well anniem and Catnip, I accidentally tried to quote something and screwed up.....IMAGINE???!!!!I am posting after only reading 1/2 the replies Catnip received. ugh~~~I agree with everything Catnip said about "doubt" and not wanting to give up any more time to oc/A.I was betrayed by ow/priest/my gynecologist!(just found out he delivered oc by reading on birth certificate)/ h's friends and h.As far as ob/gyn....I went in Nov. 2000 for all the ugly std tests and told him names and everything! He knew! He had been caring for ow all along...another betrayal by men I trusted....After all this time I waver on just getting out.Granddaughter is going to be born and delivered at same hospital by same DR. as ow and probably same month! A year apart. Don't think I can go.....~~~ sigh~~~~I love/hate H today.I am again in a position of confusion and sadness.And Catnip, I already have the streaked hair....heh..heh..AND I am fast approaching my 49th bd....but look great [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Sooo...I sit in limbo once again.I work. I can make it. What to do? Oh! What to do.Love and miss you all and lurk from work,Debi[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: gemini1 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by anniem:
 Why do I stay? Why?<hr></blockquote>Sometimes I think I stay for that amazing involuntary muscle spasm. Puuurrrrr.Doc's Girl: Bipolar comes from a family where his mother, sisters, 2 brothers are all nurses. Another brother is a paramedic. Bipolar "wanted" to be a doctor and I have often thanked God he went into mechanics instead. He draws people like a Pied Piper with that charasmatic thing he has going on and while I never worried until three years ago that he could be unfaithful to me, I never liked entertaining the idea of him being charming all over a hospital filled with nurses or fem docs. Besides, he says the only difference betwen himself and a doctor is that he washes his hands AFTER the 'repairs'. HahahaGem!!! Something to relate to! Found something to draw you out of the woodwork! Well, old Pal, your grandchild is going to survive Doctor Doolittle and you will survive the triggers once that kid makes his/her debut. I know you are in the "fighting triggers" stage big time. The time frame fits. I seem to be doing it a lot right now because I have so many crucial decisions to face...will I let Bipolar live with me? Of course! The decision is made. But, I have two weeks from today to change my mind.Tomorrow we are going to spend the weekend at a hotel (ahhhh, room service! For breakfast they have oatmeal with sliced bananas and brown sugar that they glaze like creme brulee. It is incredible. Bipolar likes to feed it to me cause he likes to hear me groan...hahaha) and we are going to a blues club and rent movies in our room, and top the evenings off with one of those involunta...never mind.aimee: They don't undestand...period...unless we did these things to them. Ask the boys on this board. They'll tell you they feel the same way we do. Fullhouse seems to be as oblivious to Pop's pain as your husband is to yours. It is the classic Perpetrator-Victim thing where the Perp says, "Whhhaaaaatttt? What's so bad? Why are you hanging on to this? Why can't you get over this?" crap. But, if any of this had been done to them...can you imagine the outrage? Can you even imagine them staying with you or me? Bipolar swears he would have stayed with me and raised it as his own and I just laugh. He was so jealous of my son from my previous marriage, he could hardly see straight.anniem: NPD is very close to Bipolar disorder. Did you know that? A lot of the same behavior and symptoms. Things that only chocolate cake can fix for us takes huge amounts of meds for them. FYILeaving tomorrow at 4 PM...see yaCatnip =^^=

You guys have said it all and so well. In trying to cope, we have lost something of ourselves. Innocense I guess. We'll never have that again.For how many years, did we know ourselves? We groomed ourselves into the persons we wanted to be, and we liked who we were. So did everyone else, except the one person who should have liked us the best...our mates. Now within a matter or months or a few years, we have to see not only our mates in a new way, but ourselves as well. We have to see that yes, there is a little DarthVader in all of us. We can all go over to the "dark side" in certain situations. This is just human nature. Its just the way people are. Tho I dont like that in myself and wish I could be the happy, contented person I once was.One thing I have learned so far (13 mo past D-day) is that patience is essential. Just wait and see. I know, that how I feel today, isnt how I felt yesterday and it isnt the way Ill feel tomorrow. Sometimes my H would think I was crazy because I would say..."yes" something was ok one day, and the next day I would change my mind, or vise versa. We need to realize we are coping the best we can with a life altering expierence. We need to give our selves permission to feel what we feel right now, and be who we are right now. It doesnt mean we'll always be this way, or feel this way. But for today its ok whatever that is.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
Dear catnip,
No, you're not standing in the way of OC having a father because you see, OC's MOM took care of that by getting pregnant by a married man who already had a family... SHE is the one who stood in the way of giving that child a "proper" life. You have nothing to feel guilty for. You have my permission to let yourself off the hook for once and for all! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <hr></blockquote>I truely agree with this statement, I have been overwhelled lately with work, family, lawyers, ect, that I lurk often and post hardly ever. Just wanted to say hi to all my old friends, and wish everyone well, Peace to you all, Gabi1116

Sad facts of life... BS carries the burden of what WS did for the duration... WS's seem to not have any triggers that spiral them into depression--unless it is some type of withdrawal--I'm speaking of unrepentant WS's, that is.We just have to keep giving our burdens to the Good Lord each and every day and focus on one moment at a time and that's it.Just try to get from thought to thought and ask for help with each. Sometimes the things we think aren't even true! So we have to weigh them before we speak out things that may set a tone in the household that we could do without. Especially if it's a perfectly good day.It must be tough fighting the temptation to throw the affair in the WS's face with an OC in the picture. Real tough trying to fill ENs and not LB. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] My heart goes out to you BS's dealing with OC's & CS & visitation & court & OW stalkers & OW squatters, and on and on...*sigh*Oh well... I too CRACKED UP when catnip said she flipped her hair and bumped her head. Sounds like something I would do. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Only you know, my husband and I probably would have BOTH LAUGHED!I know you BSs will be okay. You're all amazing spouses. Simply amazing.[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]

Catnip, You got your claws out again girl!! <blockquote>quote:<hr>Fullhouse seems to be as oblivious to Pop's pain as your husband is to yours. <hr></blockquote>I guess I'm sensitive to this remark because I can relate. I have gone back and read FH's posts a while ago and to me she seems to be genuinely sorry and repentive for what she has done. I don't think she is oblivious to pop's pain, only very discouraged and distraught because she wants to make her marriage work so badly and that is very hard to do when it feels like you are the only one who's trying. My H and I went through what she and pops are going through now. I never belittled my H's pain but questioned many times if saving our marriage was really what he wanted to do. I think the time factor is a big issue. It can be very frustrating for anyone, BS or WS, who feels that they are doing everything they can to make things better but are gaining no ground.
<blockquote>quote:<hr> As far as ob/gyn....I went in Nov. 2000 for all the ugly std tests and told him names and everything! He knew! He had been caring for ow all along...another betrayal by men I trusted <hr></blockquote>Gem, Feeling that you have been betrayed by so many people can indeed feel like a kick in the face. However, in the case of your ob/gyn I hope you realize his Dr/patient confidentiality. He could no more disclose to you that he was the OWs Dr than he could disclose to her that he was testing you for stds. If he is a good Dr. whom you feel comfortable with I hope that you won't hold it against him

WANT IT BACK,
I CAN'T GO BACK. OB ASKED TOO MANY QUESTIONS HE ALREADY KNEW ANSWERS TO.I GAVE HER NAME, SAID SHE WAS MARRIED, AND HE ASKED WHICH "LAST NAME" SHE WAS RELATED TO. I TOLD HIM WE WERE ALL FRIENDS...TOLD HIM I WONDERED IF SHE WAS REALLY PREGNANT...TOO MUCH. HE PROMPTED A LOT OF Q'S..LIKE PRIEST HE ALREADY KNEW THE FREAKIN ANSWERS!ALSO REMEMBER HER ASKING AS MY "FRIEND" WHO OB/GYN WAS!!!I NEVER WANT TO BE ON A TABLE WHERE SHE MAY HAVE BEEN AGAIN.IT'S BEEN A ROUGH COUPLE OF DAYS.DEBISorry, forgot to remove capital letters before I typed...[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: gemini1 ]

Gem, Sorry, I did not know all the details. Of course if you don't feel comfortable with him there is no way you can go back. My concern was just that after having lost so many ob/gyns myself in the last 10 years (they always move to a bigger city just when I'm starting to feel comfortable with them) I know how hard it is to start over with a new one. I hope you can or have found another one that you like.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by want it back:
Catnip, You got your claws out again girl!!<hr></blockquote>No! No, not really, at all! I apologize. My remarks about FH were uninformed opinions. I truly do not know enough about Fullhouse's true feelings and should never have made such a disrespectful judgment. My statement was not really well thought out and I kind of knew it at the time and was using it as an unfair example. I rarely do something like that, I never apologize, but on something like this, I really, really need to apologize. And I do.You were right to call me on this one, WIB. I was a chowderhead. Fullhouse could post her thoughts on this site for clarification so as to avoid bum raps from chowderheads...All you wonderful people have a great weekend...I'm outta here til Monday.LoveCatnip =^^=

Now that is the Catnip I've heard everyone speak so highly of. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Hope your weekend is the best!!

Hello,
I must be one of the younger people here because I never heard the word chowderhead before I came here. So what is a chowderhead? Just thought I would ask. Dawn

Want It Back & Catnip,I have been wondering if I should reply to FH's post. I realize they have a wedding coming up, but more importantly I don't want to hurt people. Further, I don't know if it would do any good.So what am I babbling about? I think Catnip's first comment about FH is dead on. If you two will undulge me and pardon me for using Catnip's post to discuss this. I would like your feed back and I don't really want to get FH/Pops into this until I understand things better. I suspect they won't see this post.Here is what I see FH is not getting and what Pops isn't telling her.She made a decision to have the affair. Pops had no say in this.She made a decision to have unprotected sex. Pops had no say in this.She made a decision to have the child and not abort. Pops had no say in this. She made a decision not to put Grace up for adoption. Pops strongly wanted this.She has so far NOT filed for child support from OM. Pops strongly wanted this.Why did she do these things? Because her "feelings" told her to. Nevermind the damage that she did to the marriage and the family.Now the issue is CS from OM. Her not seeking this will mean her other 4 children at home will have less, perhaps much less since she is also not working. Further, this decision means that Pops has to decide whether to divorce her soon. OR he will be stuck with CS whether the marriage makes it or not and even if FH were to pass away.Further, Pops is a bit older and will be in late 60's before Grace is 18, meaning he may not be around to support ANY of the children, thus Grace puts added pressure on this.FH's response is that she "tries to greet him at the door",she says she loves him, but she doesn't "feel that she wants OM in her life".Pops in my opinion is not sure of many things, but the one things he is sure of is that FH's "feelings" come before him and yes even the children. Thus, he is having a hard time committing to the marriage, and by definition to Grace. I think he needs to decide about the marriage before he can let her into his heart.Those are SOME of my thoughts on this. I am tempted to tell FH this,but I don't think she will understand a thing I just said.Ladies what do you think? Is there a better way to do this? I would like to see Pops and FH happy and hopefully still married, but my perception of this is like Catnip posted, she doesn't see what she has done to Pops or the position she has put him in.I need advice. Do I post this to her? Do I change what I post to make it more "sensible" to her? Do you think I am wrong?Again I apologize for bursting in here but when what Catnip posted, I thought now would be a good time to solicit some advice.Thanks for reading this.God Bless,JL

I don't think we were talking about things that happened during the A. And as for now FH does not want OM in her life which I thought everyone here would have applauded. Pops is certainly entitled to all the feelings he is having however, he is saying that he does want his marriage to work and he does want to "be in love " with FH again but I am not sure he feels this way at all. That is what is making thier situation so hard. He needs to get off the fence and decide what he wants one way or the other and comit to it.I have lots more to say on this but not enough time right now.[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]

OK, I'm back. <blockquote>quote:<hr> She made a decision to have the affair. Pops had no say in this.She made a decision to have unprotected sex. Pops had no say in this. <hr></blockquote>I don't think anyone is going to disagree with you here. ALL WSs, including me and FH, did not think much about anyone else at these times.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>She made a decision to have the child and not abort. Pops had no say in this. She made a decision not to put Grace up for adoption. Pops strongly wanted this. <hr></blockquote>
Here you are going to have to forgive me but I don't feel that you or any other man are qualified to make any judgements where this is concerned. Until you have carried a child under your heart for 9 months and have gone through labor to bring that child into the world then you can have no idea of what you are talking about. Kind of like me saying that it really doesn't hurt when you get kicked in the balls! I've read posts on here where men say they really don't bond with thier child until after it is born whereas a mother bonds with that child the minute she learns that she is pregnant. I looked into abortion. Researched it. I read about women who had no problems, I read about women who had pieces of thier baby falling out of them for days. This would have sent me to the state hospital , no doubt. I would have been no use to my H or my sons. We never discussed adoption. My H I think knew the type of person I am and knew that would also have sent me to the mental ward.
Point being, I don't think men in general are qaulified to give opinions on something they never have or never will experience in thier life. If FH had had an abortion or given Grace up for adoption without wanting to do it %100 how would that have affected her feelings towards Pops? How would that have affected the recovery of thier marriage? I don't think they would be much better off than they are now. I am the one who made the mistakes so why is it that my innocent child should have to be the one to pay the price. Hold me responsible, but to take away that childs life or give it an uncertain future with strangers hardly seems the right thing to do. <blockquote>quote:<hr>She has so far NOT filed for child support from OM. Pops strongly wanted this <hr></blockquote>She is between a rock and a hard place here. She wants to go for CS because pops wants it yet she is terrified that having OM in thier lives will only cause problems. You need to look at the whole picture JL.She has clearly expressed her desire to fix her marriage and is doing everything pops is asking of her right now. It is Pops who needs to decide what he wants now. JL, I do believe that you feel the WS carries the entire burden of fixing a marriage yet that would be in opposition to the Harley principals. Have you read Surviving an Affair? Maybe you should.[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]

Me again. I just can't believe how much this is getting to me and I guess I need to know something. Does a WS have to do EVERYTHING that the BS asks and if so, where is the line drawn or is there no line and if the WS can not bring themselves to do some of the things that the BS is asking does that automatically mean that they don't love the BS with all thier heart and want thier marriage to work?. If Pops asks FH to stand in the town square so people can stone her for her adultery, or if he asks her to wear a scarlet letter or if he asks her to jump off a bridge and she can not bring herself to do those things does it mean she is not sorry for the things that she has done and that she doesn't love him? (I personally would have done all 3 of those things before I would have killed my own child or given it up for adoption). There are many many other ways to prove her love to him other than by just automatically complying to his every wish. I don't think anyone on this earth regardless of what they have done(except murder) needs to live under that kind tyranny. As I said, there are many other ways to prove your love and devotion to someone.[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]

want it back,
I have to say in my case yes my h had to do everything I said I needed for me to stay. This is the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with. I have been cheated on in past relationships and just walked away for allot less then this. I was a mess for quit a while. For me to truly believe my h wanted to fix the damage he had done. When I said jump my h pretty much had to say how high. This is what it took until I felt that I could believe in him again. Its going on three yr. now things are better between us then they have ever been. I still have bad days when I feel the only way to put this behind me is to is to end this marriage. Then when I really think about it this has changed me forever so even without him I think this will be with me till I die. To believe in someone that has hurt you so badly is so very hard to do. The child support is a continuous reminder of how stupid my h was. Because of that its not going to be easy for him to slip in any way shape or form to his former self.
with love flowerseed

Hi flowerseed,
I can understand your feelings and I'm not going to ask about anything you may have made your H do. I guess I am having the biggest problem with JL, Pops and anyone else who feels as they do that they talk about women getting abortions or giving thier child up for adoption as if they were talking about a puppy, not another human being. I guess it's just one more reason to be extra thankful for the H that I have. He's going to get an extra big hug when he walks through the door this afternoon!!!!

I should explain what I mean by my h going back to his former self. He can be the biggest a hole that ever was if he chooses to be. For six months he did all he could do to make me hate him. Verbally and emotional abusive to this day I don't know how I took it. When he had finally got his wish and I was ready to get out was when he decided to not be that horrible person he
had been. He begged and pleaded for me to give it a second chance that now he had realized that his family was the most important thing to him and wanted things to be like they were before. This was also when he had told me that he had cheated and was the reason for his rotton behavoir. I actually felt sorry for him. It doesn't take very much to remind me of the nasty person he was and the disgust creeps up on me. I hated him for along time and only gave him a chance to prove he could change because of our child at that point there was no love that I felt for him only hate and pity. He has a mother that has screwed around on his father up until about 3yrs ago when he finally divorced her. When I first meant my h he made excuses for his mom. A few yrs after our little girl was born he stopped making excuses for her. I guess maybe I had allot to do with that because I thought it was wrong and wouldnt listen to the crap. I think this has allot to do with the jeklel and hide personality. In some weird way I think he was trying punish me and take it out on me for his moms sick behavior. I think it made a big difference in my h thinking when he seen what damage can occur when things go on for as long as they had with his mother and father. His mom tried to commit suicide at the boyfriend house (shot herself twice in the chest) when she came to the realization that neither man wanted her and her games were not going to work anymore. She would always either be cheating on her boyfriends with her h or vise versa. Quit a screwed up family.What I don't understand is right around the time he cheated on me was when he had caught his mom cheating on his father again. This last time of her getting caught was when his dad divorced her. He went and told his dad about it and he acted like this was so wrong.I think this was why I thought he would never do this to me. But yet he turned right around and did the same thing to me.H was always very good at saying what you wanted to hear. Now words mean nothing to me unless they are followed by actions that fit them.
them.[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: flowerseed ]

I know what you mean. I had a boyfriend who used to beat me. His father beat his mother and he absolutely hated his father for it yet he would turn around and do the same thing to me. Go figure??!!

Want It Back,You have illucidated my issues beautifully. Thank YOU.You see I don't think Pops issue is the decisions made so far. It is the decisions to be made in the future. While you think no man has any say in the issues of abortion and adoption, they do affect the H's life and at the age Pops is it is very likely for the rest of HIS life. The gestation period is 9 months, raising a child is a lifetime project.But, here is where I think FH is wrong in her approach and I think you have been perhaps misreading things. You are coming from having to make decisions that could destroy your H and certainly your marriage as well as the life of your child.Pops, has been for one reason or another cut out of all decisions. There are two major ones left. Does OM pay child support and does Pops remain married to FH?FH needs very seriously to let Pops into the process on the first one, yet only SHE can file. Pops is trying to see if there is any place left for him in this marriage and a few kisses and hugs are not going to get this done.Yet, when this subject is mentioned I fear she will respond as you did. You failed to note that I said Pops has no say in those decisions. A simple statement of fact, not an accusation, a condemnation, or even a statement of how it could/should or would be. My opinion and for that matter his don't count.BUT, if any discussion of the future produces this defensive response, then I don't need to post to FH. For she won't hear/read my message any better. If that is true then 7 childrens lifes about to be seriously damaged, because FH doesn't have a clue what Pops needs to hear from her. She doesn't see the damage she has done and no amount of guilt will fix it. What will fix it is a iron will to address her H's issues, hear them, discuss them, and let him into the process. To date he has been shut out. Hence my list! They represent major events in Pops life, most of which he had absolutely no control. All performed by a human being that claims she loves him.Now lets get down to facts. Pops age means that he may not live to see Grace reach 18, meaning that paying for her to be raised will be a life time sentence. He is at an age that to start over means now. Further, the state of California has as does most states "assumed paternity" laws. Meaning he has a finite time period to decide to declare he is not the father otherwise he is for the rest of his life no matter if the marriage lasts or not.This brings me to the decisions. He had a vasectomy, why? Because he and FH decided that they didn't want anymore children, 6 being enough. Why he had the snipe and she didn't have her tubes tied I don't know. But, I can guess that their decision (and apparently in CA the W must agree for H to have vasectomy, I have heard), was economic, a desire for to have a life after children, age, and perhaps just plain fatigue from being a parent.She has unilateraly decided to change all of those decisions and he hasn't had a word to say about it. His only option is to stay with a woman he doesn't trust and then be saddled with what she and OM did or divorce and breakup a family with 6 other childre (4 still at home). Given that FH has shown a "passive resistent" approach to everything she is very like to delay filing for CS until Pops is financially the father. He cannot trust that she won't.My opinion is that she needs to discuss and decide with him about the role of OM, NOW, or Pops is stuck again.Actually, I don't know why I have written this down. You have been through something similar to what FH is going through, and you have no idea what Pops is feeling or thinking. If you don't I doubt seriously that I could make FH see any better. She will continue to go to the door to greet him when she hears him. She will say she loves him. She will cry and act like the victim of this heartless man, who is heartless because she ripped out. Then if he stays she will wonder at his resentments, if he leaves she won't have a clue why he left and that she could have saved this marriage.But, to do it she must cease to be a victim, face what her H is feeling and thinking and figure out how to make his life a darn site better than it is now. In my opinion Grace is not the issue. If the marriage is rebuilt Pops will come to love her. Whether he stays or not CA will see to it that Pops or OM pays through the nose to support Grace. So she isn't the problem, BUT she does represent the problem, FH's failure to take into count Pops in many areas, including the role of OM in Grace's life.He will have his work to do, if he stays of that there is no doubt, but to expect a man to work until he dies for another man's child conceived in lies and deceit is a lot to ask and she doesn't even seem to appreciate that is what she is asking. She hasn't addressed Pops issues of powerlessness, and hopeless yet. I made a variety of comments to you when you first posted, because I feared you didn't see that there were some landmines laying in your path. Having the OM in your life is certainly is one. But, in Pops case he feels that the OM should be made to be part of this mess he created and she is invalidating those thoughts.I realize you have no sympathy for men. Your posts consistantly show a lack of an ability to see it from the other side. But, I think your response and defensiveness is probably very representative of what FH will do if I try to post her. So I am not being funny when I thank you. There is no need to cause pain if there is no purpose or hope. Frankly, your response bothered and took more out of me than it probably should, but it is honest and is what I asked for. I can no more change FH's perspective than I could/can yours.I think I have said enough. I won't respond to FH. Thank you for your input.God Bless,JL[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]

Well... I can finally see where I have been going wrong. I have been assuming that FH and Pops situation was very similar to mine when in fact they couldn't be more different. Why? Because Pops and my H couldn't be more different. When the decision had to be made about my D my H TOLD me that only I could make that decision and that he would stand by me no matter what. We also had planned on no more children, he also is not very young(40). When I made my decision we sat down and discussed it. I explained my reasons for making the decision I had. He hugged me and said "it's going to be a girl and she's going to look just like her mom". He was right on both counts.As far as money goes my H would gladly PAY the OM to keep him out of our lives. Pops needs to be careful what he wishes for on that one. I feel sorry for anyone who is so dependant on money in their life to make them happy.And all those "hugs, kisses and Ilove yous" that apparently don't mean a thing...those are the ONLY things my H has asked that I do and yes it makes him very happy.I know you refuse to acknowledge that a man as wonderful as my H could exist and that he could possibly be happy in this situation. I don't know if it is a threat to do so or what. I am not delusional. I have known him since grade school. Yes I hurt him very badly, yes I have seen his pain and he has seen my regret.Pops is very entitled to feel the way he does. I think he is so desperate for some kind of control right now that he doesn't care what it is as long as he's controlling it. That I think is going to get him into trouble.

Want It Back,I will agree that you are indeed a lucky woman. I do disagree with you that wanting to have some say implies that he wants control. It does imply that perhaps he wants some say in how his life and the children's life will be. Don't forget Pops hasn't stated what he wants other than he feels the OM should be responsible.If you take that as control, then why did you bring the OM into your life when clearly your H didn't want him there? You truely don't understand a thing I have said do you? So sad. Well, at least everything is going great in your marriage. That is the good news.Pops has many hard decisions and he has bee deeply hurt. However, my point was that from my position on the sidelines what FH is doing isn't going to do the job.Your H is different I suppose, but I suspect less than you think. Beware of that WIB.As I said, thank you for your input. You convinced me that I don't have the ability to help FH and Pops. I wish it was otherwise, but it is clear I haven't been able to get across to you the sublty of what I sense. It isn't just "Pops getting off of the fence." It is about FH helping him.Apparently, you didn't need to help your H or perhaps he didn't want any. It really doesn't matter.Thanks again.JL

Can't you at least see where FH might be relunctant to let OM into their lives? Do you understand her hesitation at all? Does Pops? No.I know Pops wants OM to be responsible but I don't think he's so sure that he wants him in their lives. I don't think he is absolutely sure that he does want fH to go for CS. Is he really thinking of all the consequences of having the OM in their life which you have very graciously pointed out to me on another thread? You thought it was very dangerous to do that yet now simply because Pops is saying this is what he wants and FH is being relunctant You have suddenly changed your mind. Maybe it's not about control with Pops. Is it about control with you? Why are you not trying to convince Pops how dangerous that might be like you did to me?Being in the same position as FH I fully understand her inability to give up her child. If she had been coerced into doing so I believe the marriage would have failed anyway. I understand also her relunctance to let OM into their lives. Knowing how Pops feels about him that also could very well end their marriage.
Other than those two things she is doing everything else Pops is asking of her. Trying do be loving, caring, showing genuine remorse but those things don't seem to matter one bit. It's not about the money. There are posts earlier on this thread from women who were single and raised their child just fine without CS, but fine let her go for CS. We'll see how wonderful things get after that.[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ][ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]

to all who have been posting on this thread,,, first let me say that our daughters wedding yesterday was beautiful. after raining all night (fh was up worried all night) we awoke to broken skies with lots of clear blue and white cumulis clouds drifting overhead. we fnished preparations on the house and yard about 1 hour prior to the services and had about 130 quests. one of my best friends performed the ceremony and the nieghbors certainly will be talking after about 15 of the grooms best tatooed, 1/2 long hair and 1/2 shaved headed, and leather jacket wearing friends pulled up on their harley's. it was quite
will continue this in a minute am having computer troubles pops

Pops & FH,
It sounds like the wedding went beautitfully. Glad to hear that everything went smooth. Hope you guys had a great time.Dawn

continuing my post----
It was quite a diverse crowd. catnip, when i first read this thread i felt i had many of the same feelings, although grace is an adorable little baby, i feel almost evil, when i think there are times i wish she would just go home somewhere else. wib, i understand about how hard it is for women to choose abortion or adoption, personally i always thought adoption was a much harder decision for a woman than abortion. and although a man may not know what it is like to carry a baby under his heart, i certainly didnt have to wait for my children to be born before i bonded with them. ask fh if i didnt talk to her stomach, sleep with my head on her stomach, the second i found out she was pregnant with any of our children. my bond to them was immediate and i resent any one who tries to tell me that fh's bond to our children was greater than my own. although abortion and adoption are definitely difficult decisions for a woman, both are very much apart of our society in this day and age. early in a discovery in a situation like this, for a woman to choose to carry a child to term tells me that she is willing to gamble her marriage and the stability of a family life for her existing children. it also says, that she probably knows nothing of sacrifice, yet expects her husband to sacrifice, things such as personal integrity, since now to continue in his marriage hes most likely forced to change and live with a whole new set of morals.
will continue this lately, kids are calling, its close to dinner, see you soon--pops

for a woman to choose to carry a child to term tells me that she is willing to gamble her marriage and the stability of a family life for her existing children. it also says, that she probably knows nothing of sacrifice, yet expects her husband to sacrificePops I am telling you as I write this that I believe all that you say.I am a woman and would never, ever consider having my lovers child if I wanted my husband to be married to me.But as Marilyn VanSant ? said in today's "Parade" magazine, no one agree's to everything.
I guess it's up to us to accept or reject what we personally can't accept. Right?As far as weddings go, I'm happy your D's was wonderful. Sounds like a fun time.Our son and dil wedding in November was traditional and sacred....worth every penny spent!
It was a beautiful event and when my son and I danced to "You Are My Special Angel" original version...there were no dry eyes...including my H who rushed us and hugged us and cried with us. Everyone knew of our situation too....When we danced with dil...we all cried and hugged...all was beautiful and a memory that God allowed.When d-day happened I cried that h and I would never dance at our only son's wedding...hence a year later we did! A gift!All is well tonight as h and I talked again.Saw ow and oc at drugstore today. Too long to post. Traumatized...oc doesn't resemble h in the least...Blessing #2...she is still as bold as ever and parked next to my car as we all left together in parking lot...God granted me serenity....Came home and talked w/H...He's pulling for me.
I am loved...love
Debi

WIB,I guess what you are missing is that I am not talking about what Pops should or shouldn't do. The purpose of my post orginally was to see if there was something to suggest to FH that would help her in her stated goal to repair the damage.It wasn't to condemn her or Pops choices. My feeling was that perhaps she needs to take the lead on discussing issues like the presence of the OM and the usefulness of CS. When you get to be my age which is still 10 years younger than Pops will be when Grace is 18, the prudence of financial stability for the family becomes important.It is unlikely that many of your friends have had and even in some cases died of heart attacks and cancer. Many of my friends are having those problems and they are only in there late 50's. Then, the question of the OM and the down side of his presence is mixed with the financial needs of the family and pure longevity. That is what makes this even more complex than usual.In your case you choose to bring OM into the situation, but now I am hearing you say you don't think it is a good idea. Perhaps your reasoning on this could help Pops and FH.But, I will return to my original question. Is there we can tell FH that might help her in repairing the damage? So far your responses have suggested that if I tried to help, it would not be understood as that and simply cause defensive barriers come up. That is not the goal here.In any event, now that Pops is posting here, my input is unnecessary.Thanks,JL
Pops,Congratulations on the wedding. I look forward to those days when mine get older.God Bless,JL

jl,,,, please feel free to continue to post here. you have a special way with words that is neither attacking or condeming. where i tend to say things with to much emotions. the counselors we have seen said that i am the type who wears my heart on my sleeve. i feel much of what you said so far was very accurate. it is hard for any of us not to feel like we need to defend ourselves.

wib,,, i find it hard to believe that you would think that in this type of situation only one person in the relationship is trying to save the marriage. what if i for instance had not tried to save my marriage and when fh told me that she no longer knew whether she loved me or not and started to see more of and hang out more one on one with the op i had just taken the attitude of just throwing her out of the house. which as a matter of fact was suggested to me by several of our friends. i am very interested to know on which side of the fence you stand in regards to visitation. in a previous post of yours you were talking about how lucky you were to have 2 such wonderful men in your d's life. now i read you saying that i need to be careful for what i wish if fh seeks out cs as i have asked. my opinion of this is for me to ever forget who grace's father is, is absolutely ludicrous. there are manywhat if's that can come into play in the years to come. what if we raise grace as if the op did not exist and in 18 years she all of a sudden wants to find her bio dad? what impact does that have on our family and our relationship so many years down the road? i am the kind of person that likes to meet things head on and not beat around the bush. that is one thing i am trying to deal with on myown is that i didn't handle this the way i felt i should. instead i tried to do as fh asked of me and it bit me in the butt. as jl mentioned at my stage of life other things start to come into play. my father was 2 years older then i am now when he suffered 4 heart attacks. as you may know with youth comes a feeling of invincability. then all of a sudden you are your fathers age and you can't believe it. that is why at 49 i decided to get a complete physical. i made a concious decision to change my diet and get myself back into shape. i lost 40 lbs in a matter of 3 months and have managed to keep my weight down for a year now. it was not a miracle or fad diet just a concious choice to try and prolong my life. to think that this is a matter of getting another $ in my pocket is rediculous. i have managed to raise 6 children and support my family for the most part without the financial help from fh having to work.what is important here is to make sure that every child in this house is provided for in the event of my untimely demise. maybe one thing that is different is that in your case you had actually separated from your husband. in our case we never did. everything that happened here did so in front of my eyes. the sexual part of fh's affair although unpleasant it is the easy part to deal with. prior to our marriage i was unfaithful several times.the question raised about our decision for me to get snipped and fh not to have her tubes tiedwas for a couple of reasons; 1 - in was cheaper for a vasectomy then for her. 2 - it was an office visit for me and surgery for her. 3 - with our past history if anyone were to fool around it would probably have been myself. if i would have thought that fh wanted more kids for any reason i would have been glad to oblige her. it seemed a double slap in the face to not only have her fall into an affair but to throw caution to the wind as well.one thing i realized this pasr saturday was the real reason i am still trying to work this out. 5 words "let no man put asunder". these words are one of the moral issues i am dealing with. when i spoke them i meant them then along comes the only thing that the Lord allows us to divorce for. my whole life i have believed that nothing could separate a marriage except infidelity. no other excuses period. do i want theop in my life? definetly not!! do i believe he needs to be responsible for his actions? most assuridly!!!! as for fh reading this she has. in fact she typed some of it for me. she doesn't like to post here very often. her reasons i am not completely sure of. does she love me? yes i believe so. do i love her? yes i believe so but not in the same way as before. i could lay and rub her back for hours and simply lay and brathe her in as i smelled her hair. i have asked her to try to get me to fall in love with her again. she has responded that she doesn't know how. do i need her for sex? no. i can do without sex as long as you have intimacy. and along with true intimacy will come great sex. i thought i needed to find a connection to grace to reconnect with fh. but as jl said and i am starting to believe he is right. if i reconnect with fh then the connection to grace will be there naturally. i never tried to force fh into either abortion or adoption. i did however let her know in no uncertain terms what i felt best for our marriage. wib, you said that if she had made any other choice it would have probably ended our marriage through her inability to cope. and that this may end our marriage because of my inability to cope. so what side of the fence do we need to stand on? how about we don't throw in the towel as of yet and we just keep on trying something. i am glad to here that you feel lucky to have such a wonderful h. it does however seem that you are the type of person who although you are remorseful of your actions are still thinking that you are the most important person in your relationship. i may be wrong with that statement and if so i apoligize. but for you to think that this type of situation doesn't still weigh heavily on his mind i feel is not giving him much credit for haveing any emotions. for a man or woman to place these situations behind them with a kiss and a hug is not natural to me. unless he is now blowing a little smoke in your direction. more on another day,the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence, it's greener where you water it.

JL and Pops,
I have one thing I have to get out of the way first while it is still fresh in my mind then I have a few things that pops has said that I want to address.JL, You did it. You had me convinced that I was being totally blind where my H is concerned. Though I honestly thought my instincts were right you planted that seed of doubt in my head that just kept growing and growing until last night I had to do something about it. I went back to all the posts you have made to me warning of how my H must be feeling and that there was no way he could possibly be happy in this situation and the future was very bleak. I printed them out. I only wish I could have printed out Pops latest posts also but they weren't there yet.My H sat there and quietly read all of it. Following is our conversation almost word for word as best as I can recall it.H: You're not buying into this crap are you?
Me:Well....no not really.
H: You must be or you wouldn't have given me this to read. I thought it had been pretty evident how happy I've been with the way things have been going between us these last months.
Me: It has been but I guess I just needed to be sure, you know, better safe than sorry.
H: Well, for one thing you need to stop listening to someone else telling you how I feel, someone who doesn't even know me. I promise that if I have any concerns or problems that you will be the first to know and until that time you have to promise me that you won't be creating problems where there aren't any.
Me: OK. Don't be mad. I just wanted to make sure.You and pops seem to think that I am very selfish and think nothing of what I have done. You are forgetting that we have been in recovery for 1 1/2 years and it has only been the last 3 months or so that things have been truly great. Before that(and still now) I did all the things a remorseful WS should be doing. I was trying to win back his love and trust and obviously I must have done something right. But you two can't seem to get past the fact that he might actually be happy now hence your accusations of my blindness where he is concerned. Well at least I have piece of mind now. And pops, I put my H through just as much as you have been through. We were seperated for 5 days. Before that I put him through 3 years of hell. Many many times I walked out the door with him knowing full well where I was going. As far as the decision of keeping my D. H left that up to me and said he would stand by me. Had he felt differently I honestly don't know what would have happened. This is the ONLY decision post A that I have made on my own. But I will not feel selfish about that under the circumstances. Remorseful,yes. Always.As for the OM. We really had no choice. In our situation we could have moved to Alaska and the OM still would have found out and probably tracked us down. I did not force the OM to pay CS and have visitation. I left that up to him. Yes, I am fortunate that he is not a lunatic or an unstable person and that he does love his D. And yes, we do from time to time take advantage of the times when she is at a visit to do things that are much easier to do without a baby. Had the decision of having him in our lives been totally up to me I would have chosen not to (Mainly out of respect for my H and the recovery of our marriage) although I would have always been truthful with my D about it. FH has admitted that when it comes down to it that she really does not know the OM or his wife and she has concerns about how Grace will be treated over there.I am not saying that pops does not have very many valid concerns or that they should be ignored. But just because they are concerns of his doesn't necessarily mean my H has the same ones. He is the only one who can decide what he can live with or not. I guess I'm not understanding too well what exactly he is wanting from FH and maybe she isn't either. If she goes for CS does that make everything hunky dory? Does he want her to show more remorse? Does he want her to be more loving and caring? Does he want her to go back to work? He has told FH that he wants her to get him to be in love with her again yet he can't tell her what to do to make that happen. If she has to guess it's going to be a very long process. He wants intimacy. What does that mean? It can mean very different things to many people. After reading FH's posts I don't think that it's because she doesn't want to do these things it's just that she has no idea what to do and it's being assumed that she should know. She has the desire and the drive to repair her marriage which I think is the most important thing but when I say that she can't do it alone I mean she needs help from pops in knowing what to do. She is flying blind right now and I can understand her frustration. This I think is why she is so defensive. She is remorseful and she does want to give pops what he needs but listening to you two makes it seem like she is being selfish, not trying hard enough or not doing the right things. How can she be doing the right things when she does not know what they are? That is what I meant by only one person trying. Pops can not sit back and expect her to be a mind reader and do all the right things. She needs some input.And JL, You very well may have many things to say to FH that would be very helpful however it is your delivery that elicits so much defiance. You have no "bedside manner" so to say. You sometimes assume too many things that are way off the mark. And unfortunately once you have raised that defiant nature anything else you may have had to say is gone out the window. Remember, I think that in FH's eyes she is trying to do the best she can right now, maybe not the right way or the right things, but you will come off sounding like she is being selfish and is not trying at all.[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]

Pops, I have to assume that you are sticking things out with FH in the hopes of truly being happy and in love with her one day so you must think that it is possible. God willing, you will find it. Imagine, you and FH have worked through alot of issues and problems, you are now both comfortable with being yourselves around each other, you are truly happy and playful together and in love with each other. You both feel confident that after all you've been through that the two of you can now handle whatever problems or issues that may arise in the future. Now imagine FH telling someone that although it was not easy and that there were a lot of hard times that the two of you are now finally very happy and in love again. Now imagine this person telling FH that she must be delusional, that there is no way you could ever be truly happy or in love with her now in the situation that you are in. Further more how selfish it is for her to even think you could be. Does she really think that you could ever get past everything that she has done? You certainly must be blowing smoke at her. How would that make you feel? If you don't believe that it is possible for things to be so good again then why are you staying?
I am not the only person on this forum who has a BS dealing with an A and OC where things are also going very well so why is it I'm being made to feel like it is so impossible??? Granted it's not the norm but it is possible.There are far more BWs on this forum dealing with these issues and there are many of them. You can see from their posts the vast differences in how they each feel and are handling the situation. So I assume there must also be vast differences in how each BH would feel and handle the situation and actually have seen that right here on this forum. I am done defending my Hs and my ability to have come so far and refuse to feel guilty for it because some don't think I've worked hard enough for it. Fact is you have no idea how hard I've worked for it.
[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ][ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]

WIB,You continually misread or fail to read what I have said. So I thought I would repeat part of my last post.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>I guess what you are missing is that I am not talking about what Pops should or shouldn't do. The purpose of my post originally was to see if there was something to suggest to FH that would help her in her stated goal to repair the damage.So far your responses have suggested that if I tried to help, it would not be understood as that and simply cause defensive barriers come up. That is not the goal here.<hr></blockquote>I repeat this because it also applied to my responses to you. But, I can see and will accept that you cannot see what I was trying to say to you . I suppose the only good thing that came from my response to you is that you did talk with your H and confirm his feelings for you.
You said: <blockquote>quote:<hr> JL, You did it. You had me convinced that I was being totally blind where my H is concerned. Though I honestly thought my instincts were right you planted that seed of doubt in my head that just kept growing and growing until last night I had to do something about it. I went back to all the posts you have made to me warning of how my H must be feeling and that there was no way he could possibly be happy in this situation and the future was very bleak. I printed them out. I only wish I could have printed out Pops latest posts also but they weren't there yet.My H sat there and quietly read all of it.<hr></blockquote>I would respectfully submit to you that you did a very good thing. His response should have made you feel very good. I congratulate you on your strong marriage. Now I have two questions for you. 1. Where did I say your marriage couldn't or wouldn't work? This is marriagebuilders after all.2. Why are you here, if you need no help ?In any event I take your criticism seriously and I definitely won't post to FH. Since you feel all that I post to you is attacking you, which was/is not my intention I will also refrain from posting to you as well. There is not need for people to feel harassed on this site.Good luck and God Bless,JLPS: Now we can turn this thread back to Catnip. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr>And JL, You very well may have many things to say to FH that would be very helpful however it is your delivery that elicits so much defiance. You have no "bedside manner" so to say. You sometimes assume too many things that are way off the mark. And unfortunately once you have raised that defiant nature anything else you may have had to say is gone out the window. Remember, I think that in FH's eyes she is trying to do the best she can right now, maybe not the right way or the right things, but you will come off sounding like she is being selfish and is not trying at all. <hr></blockquote>
I understand what you are saying but I don't think you are understanding me. You want to help FH without causing her to be defensive. I suggested that you probably have a lot to say that could help her but that you would have to change your approach or it would cause her to be defensive. Apparently you are unwilling or unable to do that. A lot of what you have to say is helpful, it is how you say it that negates it.
Answer to #1
<blockquote>quote:<hr> Given that you have had an affair, this is not going to be good for you, your H, or your children because if H feels he has lost control in his OWN house, the marriage is likely over.
<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr> there can be hugh problems that will lead to the end of your marriage.
<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr> Frankly, I doubt your marriage could survive that right now. <hr></blockquote>I believe there were a few more also.Answer to #2Even though I couldn't be happier at how far my H and I have progressed I am not foolish enough to take that for granted. There is still much information here and in these forums to help keep up this progression. And although we haven't faced a major problem is some time it helps to know how to avoid them[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]

WIB,Not a single quote was a statement that your marriage couldn't or shouldn't work out. Please not the "IF's" and the other statements about if these statements are true. You complained that I made assumptions there were not true, and then you act as if I believed they weren't assumptions and they were true. So dear your missing something. If the assumptions were not true, THEN the topic of that sentence didn't apply. If they weren't true it is expected, that the response would be that they are not true, but rather another situation exists.As you have now confirmed the assumptions weren't. That was the point then and now. Make sure you KNOW what your H is thinking and why was the message.As for my "style", you are right it is not a bedside manner in the sense of a counselor trying to console someone. I am not a counselor and I have no intention of consoling you. That is the job of your H or your family. On the other hand, I don't attack people either.The problem may be my style, but the issue at hand is that FH needs advice on how to help her H. Do you have any??Anyway see if you can help her and Pops. You have been where she is. But do remember that Pops just like the ladies that post here, are not your husband. It is a challenge to get it right.God Bless,JLPS: Don't worry you are not the first that thought I was attacking them, when in fact I was trying to establish the basics of the relationship. But, in over 4000 posts, it is not surprising is it?

Wow, JL & WIB! This turned out to be an exciting, excellent and informative thread of working out issues. I have enjoyed reading the points and counterpoints with much interest.I applaud you both for your abilities to stick with it to come to a higher understanding in spite of a little defensiveness and misunderstanding. I know the two of you are extremely articulate and intelligent individuals who are excellent at healthy debate and are working through this misunderstanding. I think once the two of you have come to terms with your differences, you will both agree that there are significantly more similarities. The rest is symantics.This has been a most respectful and invigorating debate and I have enjoyed the exchange. Thanks.Catnip =^^=