Marriage Builders
Posted By: friend4life Calling still seeking... - 06/04/07 12:10 AM
Still seeking - are you still there?

This is Lady_in_Red.

I'm about to try to go to talk to a priest this week. I've reached that point where I think it's finally possible to talk about our marriage, what has happened to it, to us, and where I need to go from here.

Tomorrow is our 18th anniversary and I'm feeling sad. It's hard to talk about this to anyone who hasn't gone through it. The last two years have been ******. But my kids seem to be doing OK, which for me, became the most important thing.

I just need to talk about it now, and try to find the right kind of help for myself, and try to come up with some kind of plan.

I tried to talk to my husband again on Saturday. I can't say that the response I got from him was positive. The answers he gave me were that no, he is not interested in undergoing anything resembling an analysis of what has happened to us. He does not want to engage in anything where there will be "blood on the floor". He does not have any feelings for me anymore. He does not want to discuss the past, or why he got married, or how he felt, or what he thought when he got married. That's history. He told me a few months ago that he would move out if he could, but he can't afford it. He seems to find it acceptable to sleep in the spare room and carry on his life here, giving the boys what resemblence of family life that he can without sleeping with their mother. He does his own laundry, eats meals with us, is generally cheerful.

He doesn't know that I told the boys he had an affair last year, because I'm too scared to tell him. The boys were good about it. They needed to know because it answered a lot of questions for them. My older son was amazingly mature about it. My younger son cried in my lap. My relationship with both of them has improved because there is finally honesty between us and they have reasons now for my behaviour. They are both protective of me and have become very affectionate, hugging me a lot. My older son is now 14, and taller than me now, really growing up. My younger son is 11. He is the one who is more confused. But he also has a lot of friends, one especially good friend who he shares a lot of experiences with, and I am close to that kid's mom. He has also confided in his school principal, who talked to me afterwards. He's had a lot of support from school so they are aware of our marital problems and have been quietly supportive. My older son's school is not aware of our problems because I have not wanted to jeopardize my husband's teaching work, which is within the community of private schools in our town. If I told my older son's school officially, the other people my husband works for might find out, and I haven't been ready for that to happen yet. But my older son is doing very well in his new school, receiving sensitive support from his new instrumental teacher. That teacher is aware of our marital problems, also I think my older son's English teacher knows, because he is a friend of someone I know who knows (we live in a small town - probably a lot more people know than I realize, come to think of it.) Anyway, what I have been trying to do is build my sons' support network for them....

I told my husband a few months ago that he accused me of not having a plan, but he was wrong. I do have a plan and that is that if we sleep apart for two years, then he can sue me for divorce without me having to sue him on the grounds of adultery or list his unreasonable behaviour, because I really don't want to harm him or damage his career. He came home from work that day, walked straight into the kitchen and pulled me into a big, long hug. I don't know what that meant...I think it meant he wants a divorce and he was thanking me for that. It also told me that if he felt like it, he could easily walk into the kitchen EVERY DAY and hug me, but he chooses not to....

I feel really sad right now, though....kinda having a hard time. But maybe I've passed a kind of milestone today. I prayed in church today at Mass and thanked God for every person in my life, for giving me a wonderful sister, and a wonderful mother, and for each of my beautiful friends, for the chance to know them all, and for my two magnificent boys. I also thanked God for my husband, because through him I've learned a lot of lessons about myself I needed to learn in life, and I can't say I'm sorry I have been given these beautiful children. I just thanked God for giving me so much, and for also letting me be betrayed, because now I can understand those who have been betrayed, and for letting me suffer, because now I can feel with those who have felt suffering. I know to some people that might sound corny, but it's taken me a long, long time to get to this point, because I really feel I didn't do anything to deserve being treated this way and I've been really angry about it for a long time. If I'm really honest, I am still angry, but I'm less angry than I was.

It's been a long time. I have a ways to go yet. I wondered if you were still here?

LIR
Posted By: Orchid Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/04/07 01:04 AM
LIR,

I'm not SS but it is good to hear from you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but sad to hear about your current sitch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Ok, looks like you are ready to for a life changing decision. Need some support?

L.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/04/07 01:40 AM

Is your husband also Catholic?

Larry
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/04/07 04:25 AM
It's so hard sometimes to know what to say.

I just got home from visiting MIL in the Hospital, and I don't have time to talk at length, but I'll get back to you.

God bless you and keep you safe.

Thanks Orchid, you are some of the best help there is. She can use your soft touch.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/04/07 05:55 AM
Hello, Orchid. It's good to see your name...thank you for coming here. I think so. I've been handling the situation the way I thought was best for my boys, because of what happened to us at their school two years ago....it's a long story....but basically, my sons were both at a high-profile boarding school in our town because of their musical talent - the older one was a star performer, the younger one, I wanted him to have the same opportunity as his brother, and because of the turmoil at home in 2001-02 from my H's EA's (and abuse) I wanted him in a safe and secure environment. That turned into a nightmare for us, when they got new staff at their boarding house. I had concerns about the way all the children were being treated, and through no fault of mine, ended up in conflict with the new staff. This wasn't just me, the new staff had conflict with several other sets of parents, as well. The school management took the position that the new staff member was young and needed time to learn how to do his job and his mistakes should be forgiven. I did that, but things went from bad to worse, and I became extremely concerned about the welfare of my children, as did other parents. The night after I asked for the security of the boarding house to be reviewed, as I had found out someone had unauthorized access to the house, I received an anonymous e-mail threatening my reputation if the new staff decided to leave their post. Another parent went to Social Services and I supported them - 6 other sets of parents also supported this effort. The national newspapers got wind that something was up and a public scandal loomed. This never happened because the national newspaper decided not to run with the story...papers are afraid of being sued for libel, and no crimes were committed in this case. It was just bad management and a number of unhappy children and parents...

The short story is that I decided it was not safe to leave my kids there. They were desperately unhappy and I was, as a mom, deeply stressed-out. My kids were living away from home, but in a deeply damaging situation for them. After the Social Services investigation, SS revealed our identity to the school, and the new staff would have been able to target our children for bullying, so I decided I had to take them out. The new staff kept their job, but were formally cautioned, and the school had to agree to a further government inspection within a year, had to make significant improvements in the procedural running of the care of the children. The inspection report which followed a year later was good in most respects. The school had made many improvements it was supposed to make. But the report flagged up a significant failing in the care of the children which it said "must be addressed" and that was discipline within the boarding house. Reading between the lines, this is a direct criticism of the "new staff". I felt vindicated when I read that report. Sad for the children still there, but vindicated about having taken the steps I did. My head rested on the pillow peaceful that night, knowing I had done the right thing for all those kids. I hadn't set out to get rid of the new staff, but to hold the school accountable for how they treat the children. The "new staff", who have been in post now for 3 years, are now moving on to a new job as head of department in a local junior school. I may still have to have professional association with this person as I work in the senior school attached to that school. I have a lot of support from my boss who supported me throughout that whole ordeal. But this is a small town, and a high-profile town. I can't talk about this in any more detail. It's over and done with now anyway and not relevant to my sitch. It's background for what happened to my family. But it explains why I have endured what a lot of people wouldn't have endured.

This was a massive and stressful experience. When we brought our kids back home, they needed stability. I had thought for several months that something was up with my H - he did all the distant stuff he'd done before when he was involved in an EA. I found something on the computer a few days after we came back from our summer holiday proving his involvement in another EA. I flipped. I just felt so betrayed. I was worn out, had gone through this incredible battle, during which I had had to publicly defend HIS behaviour, and I had been torn apart by the school, and he was having another EA behind my back! I flipped because he betrayed me while we were trying to protect our children. To me that was the ultimate betrayal. I kicked him out of our bedroom, tried to get him to go to counselling, but...nothing. He was a true WS this time. He indulged in his long-distance affair for at least 9 months. He admitted it in June of last year. I think its over now. But we are at total stalemate. I didn't give him a "roadmap" back, maybe I should have, but I couldn't. We are living in the same house but in separate bedrooms. Under normal circumstances, plan B was what I should have done, but I thought that would destroy the children. After what they'd been through, they needed dad at home. So I've endured this compromise. I'm still not 100% sure splitting up would be the right thing to do, even though I'm 99% sure my H is a lost cause and I sure don't feel any attraction for him anymore. I love him, I'm just not "in love" with him. I know that's long, but I felt I needed to fill in the gaps for you.

Yes, Larry, my H is Catholic. And very Catholic. His whole life is about being Catholic. His behaviour towards me and his attitude towards our marriage are totally at odds with what he says he believes. His career is also within the Church.

My H has resisted all efforts to put our relationship under scrutiny. It's clear to me he will avoid pain at all cost, no matter how much pain that causes me, his kids or himself. He has serious, serious personal problems. He's trying to cope as best he can, and be a good dad as best he can. He's totally lost. I am not sure he can be helped. I still have compassion for him.

Hi still seeking. Thank you for being there. I'm sorry about your MIL. I hope she is better soon. You don't have to say anything. I just needed to make contact with someone before I go seek help here. Thanks for being there. Being able to make contact here will help me find the strength to go talk to someone here.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/05/07 04:40 AM
You don't have to say anything. I just needed to make contact with someone before I go seek help here. Thanks for being there. Being able to make contact here will help me find the strength to go talk to someone here.

I know I don't have to say anything, but I nearly always do (as you would already know.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Time is always tough these days, but I promise I'll get to it soon.

How are you these days?
I would really like to know.

Not just your marriage, and your children, though these are very important.

You had/have other goals for yourself. How are you coming?

How is your faith?

Are you getting help when you pray? Do you know there is someone there, on the other end?

Would you be able to live on your own these days?

I can think of lots more questions, but need to go for now.

BTW, MIL had surgery on her foot to correct a bone problem. It is not serious, and she is doing well. We were doing a routine visit.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/05/07 05:32 AM
Quote
I know I don't have to say anything, but I nearly always do (as you would already know.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LIR smiles.

[quote] Time is always tough these days, but I promise I'll get to it soon.

I'm the same. Time even harder to come by than before.

[quote] How are you these days?

Physically - sometimes struggling - I've been suffering a burning pain in my left side since last August...it's been an ordeal. On some heavy pain killers, and frustrated with my doctor, I changed to a new doctor, who is a lot more pro-active and I've had a few tests, x-rays, etc.. The good news is that I don't have cancer. But they still don't know what is causing it...I am due for more scans. The good news is that it seems to be lessening...I seem to have more good days than bad now. I have days now where I don't have to take painkillers. Gradual improvement.

Goals - I started my MA last year - went to my week-long study school (the rest by distance learning). I was supposed to progress at a minimum rate of 2 modules a year. This year I only accomplished one module, but got a high mark in it, which made me feel good. I have a deadline to finish my second module by mid-July. Don't know if I'm going to make it. Doctor has written to school and I have a good tutor. Boss is very supportive. Progress can be slow as I like - deadlines are self-set. I'm finding it really hard to work, take care of the family, and study. But I am plugging away at it. Slow but steady wins the racc....-)

Emotionally - don't know. Feeling pretty wiped out. I think I have managed to keep going because the kids need me, and they needed me to help them get through certain milestones, which I have managed to do....that was a 2-yr project...big milestone coming up for younger son is transition to secondary school in Sept...I think he will do really well....my goal has been to keep my boys on track, not derail them by forcing them to deal with a divorce....

Inside? Probably I'd say I am suffering. My top emotional need is affection, physical affection, and that's not there. It's like trying to run a marathon when you are starving. My boys do give me lots of hugs and kisses. This is a great blessing to me, I have to say. They are so sweet with me. But I know they will grow up and leave me, which is as it should be. I'm not going to hold them back because of my needs. My need for affection should mainly be filled by the man in my life, I'm clear on that.

[quote]How is your faith?

Frail but not gone. Sometimes I hear Him. He must be with me or I wouldn't still be here.

[quote]Would you be able to live on your own these days?

Not sure. My boss fought for me for a raise at work, but I'm still not paid well. If H moved out, I would get more government assistance, but that wouldn't last forever - only while I had kids at home, then I'd be on my own. Don't think H could support two households. And then there's university for the kids....But I think I would cope if I had to...others do....

[quote]I can think of lots more questions, but need to go for now.

Thank you for listening to me. I need the encouragement so I will go out now and try to find the right kind of support for myself here. I think I have put my kids first, which I had to do and now I'm thinking its time for me, too...I have some ideas which I need to follow up on....

[quote]BTW, MIL had surgery on her foot to correct a bone problem. It is not serious, and she is doing well. We were doing a routine visit.

I'm glad it wasn't too serious and am glad she's doing well. Hope she recovers quickly. I've gotta go to work now. Will come back later. Thanks so much again for being there.

LIR

(Just previewed my post - gotta get those quotes sorted out, but looks kinda pretty on the page)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/06/07 05:09 AM
W just called to me and said "I'm going to bed."

That means I am going also.

Ah - so much to say............... so little free time.

Once, a long time ago............ we had a discussion about the refiners fire. Perhaps you remember it.

Humor me a little bit.
From Malachi.
Can you recall who it is that is to be purified?

It does look pretty on the page - and thanks for the information.

One last question before I go.

Do you realize how much God loves you, and how much he desires your happiness? Would it help if you were to recall that dream............ from so long ago?

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/06/07 10:39 PM
Quote
W just called to me and said "I'm going to bed."

That means I am going also.

Good for you! I think this was the final undoing of our marriage. When H started to compose, he started staying up late alone, and I would go to bed without saying goodnight, so as not to disturb his concentration. He would come to bed quite late. At the time, he was falling in love with OW1. I didn't realize it was so serious and thought I was giving him the space he needed to compose. I think he thought I didn't care about him - anyway, I let him slip away, and once he was gone, he was gone. Before that, he always wanted me to come to bed when he went to bed, because he couldn't sleep if I stayed up....

Quote
Once, a long time ago............ we had a discussion about the refiners fire. Perhaps you remember it.

Humor me a little bit.
From Malachi.
Can you recall who it is that is to be purified?

I remember it. I think it was me who was supposed to be purified....refining out all the hard bits....I've been thinking about this a lot lately...when I started to pray on Sunday, thanking God for giving me my H, I thanked him because it is through my R with my H that I have learned a lot about myself that I needed to know, both the good and the bad....I'm not saying I am any more "good" than I was 20 years ago, and I'm not sure that I wouldn't make the same mistakes all over again, but there are some very important lessons I have learned and I think I do try harder to adhere to how I believe I should behave instead of giving in to my own anger and self-righteousness...Harley, I think is the best straight-talking teacher on this score...all the stuff about LB's - angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, selfish demands...you can do all these things in the spirit of self-righteous anger and be the wronged party, but they are still LB's and they are still uncharitable ways to react...I've had to try to clean up my act and change my behaviour. I'm pretty sure that my despair comes from the fact that none of my work on myself seems to have had any impact on how my H feels about me or how he chooses to behave himself.

Even though right now I feel like our marriage could have been a big mistake, I also thanked God for letting me make that commitment 18 years ago, because He allowed me to see that it was a commitment I could make....

I am not going to say I have no regrets. I have a lot of regrets and I am trying to learn to live with that....ultimately, deep down inside me, although I know my H is entirely responsible for his own behaviour and his own bad choices, I blame myself - because I did break off our first engagement, forseeing the whole scenario that is now happening...with older OW always on the scene, and with H not being able to be faithful...what I didn't forsee was the depth of my H's violent reactions and emotional aloofness...still, there was enough there that I should have listened to my intuition...so I feel responsible for bringing these children into the world and for their fate...I think the deeper truth is probably that I loved my H not despite the fact that he was bad, but BECAUSE he was bad. I found it exciting and wanted to be the ONE he would stop being bad for....lots of women are attracted to the "bad boy" - that is part of the refiner's fire - to be honest and admit that about myself.

I spoke to my Dad about this on Sunday and he told me that while that may be true, and that while I knew he could be "bad", I didn't have any way of knowing the depth to which that would go...so in that I have to forgive myself...

Did you see the movie "Volver" with Penelope Cruz? It's in Spanish....beautiful movie. You should watch it, if you haven't and try to get all the way to the end. I watched it a few weeks ago and I really think it is the first movie I have seen where I could say the director REALLY understands women - how they think, how they feel. Everything about that movie expresses the strength and beauty of women...and how they blame themselves for the bad things that happen to them, for the bad things that men do to them. THAT is where he really understands women. He understands that they DO blame themselves, and why they do...because they blame themselves for not following their intuition, for NOT KNOWING what they should have been emotionally alert towards...he also shows how great their dedication is to each other and to what lengths they will go to protect and help each other...its a beautiful movie.

Quote
Do you realize how much God loves you, and how much he desires your happiness? Would it help if you were to recall that dream............ from so long ago?

I don't think I do realize how much God loves me, except that I dimly and stupidly understand that He gave His only Son so that we could be reconciled to Him and as proof of His love for us. I don't know what happiness would really look like for me. I don't remember the dream you are talking about...I remember that I had a dream, but I don't remember what it was.

I'm going to go to bed now. I always write too much anyway, so you will probably be relieved that this is short! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I feel completely exhausted today - my boss is really ill and I'm worried about her. We went up and running with a new computer system on Monday and it is not going well, and she is ill, had to go to A&E on Sunday night - so my colleagues and I are trying to cope without her...its very stressful. I came home today and went straight to bed, feeling like I was going to collapse. I asked my H if he could make dinner and he was very good about it. My son brought me dinner in bed, so I have had about six hours to just lie there getting my strength back. I'm now going to go to bed and try to get a good night's sleep.

Because of the situation at work, I haven't been able to call and make an appt with the priest...that's what I need to do...that's my first step...because there are theological issues I have to sort out with him about our marriage and about the issues of repentance and forgiveness....

Then I think I need to find a different kind of counselor and start trying to deal with putting myself back together inside, regaining my confidence and trying to learn some the skills that I am lacking in...one of the doctors in my new surgery is a licensed psychotherapist. I might approach him, but I wanted to get my physical symptoms diagnosed first, because I didn't want them to think that the physical pains I have been experiencing are psychosomatic, or that I am attention-seeking.

The other place I thought about going to try to get counselling was the women's shelter, where I might be able to find counselling with someone who understands the experiences of women who have experienced abuse...I expect they are very busy and probably have a lot more women who are in much worse shape than me...I don't know if they would have any room on their schedules.

And my last thought is that it is possible that my H has something organically wrong with him - like maybe he has Asperger's Syndrome, or some kind of autism...I have read some of the Aspergers website forums, and some of the things the partners of people with AS have written sound like they could have been written by me - the explosive anger experienced in response to my emotional needs when I am experiencing my own negative emotions. My H doesn't really (as far as I can tell, I could be wrong) fit the picture of the controlling abusive man - for example, he is not jealous and he doesn't try to control my movements. His explosions, which have been few, but frightening to me, have been when I have needed HIM - I read that AS people react very negatively to others' negative emotions because they feel overwhelmed by them. They handle their own negative emotions alone and feel that you should, too. So when you have negative emotions - like stress at work that you need to talk through, or grief, or tiredness - and you try to talk to them, like you would in a normal relationship, they feel you are dumping on them and get mad at you. Now that describes my H to a T. He is not interested in how I feel, and although he sometimes tries to understand, he can only take so much...if I push him, and I have, he reacts very badly. If he had AS, that might explain a lot. But I doubt that he would submit to any tests. He's too frightened of finding out anything about himself. That's one possible take on the sitch.

Anyway...just some thoughts..and those are the things that I have thought up about trying to seek help for myself that I felt like I needed to seek support with...I'm afraid.

Good night. Thank you so much for being there. When I said it was short, I spoke too soon! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/07/07 12:10 AM
Speaking of the refiners fire -
I remember it. I think it was me who was supposed to be purified....refining out all the hard bits....I've been thinking about this a lot lately...when I started to pray on Sunday, thanking God for giving me my H, I thanked him because it is through my R with my H that I have learned a lot about myself that I needed to know, both the good and the bad....

Those who love God, and seek him with all their hearts will be purified, and refined.

re·fine (r¹-fºn“) v. re·fined, re·fin·ing, re·fines. --tr. 1. To reduce to a pure state; purify. 2. To remove by purifying. 3. To free from coarse, unsuitable, or immoral characteristics: refined his manners; refined her speaking style. --intr. 1. To become free of impurities. 2. To acquire polish or elegance.

We often react poorly (emotionally) to the heat it takes to refine us. Sometimes we think we won't make it, that we will burn up along with the rest of the impurities.

When I asked about a dream from long ago, this was what I was referring to -
From March of 2004
Are you a Christian? When I was 16 I had a dream - I was running around inside my house, crying out for help (you got an idea what kind of life we were leading then) - my brother said to me, stop, don't you hear the knocking on the door? I stopped and yes, there was someone knocking on the door. I opened the door, and there was a huge STOP sign outside. I stopped, it disappeared and then, before me stood the most beautiful sight I have ever seen before or since - a King stood outside my door, in all his glory. He looked like the King in a chess game - that shape, very tall and looking down at me - this radiant otherworldly being standing there - in MY world, on my doorstep. He seemed to be wearing a long cloak that reached the ground - so he had this chesspiece King shape - not a shape like a human body. There was nothing "human" about him but his eyes, which were dark and so full of love for me I couldn't believe it, but felt in love just gazing at them - and why was he so beautiful? Because he was made up of jewels - living jewels of every colour of our universe, known and unknown - tiny, moving specks of living radiant light that crawled all over his robe in a kaleidescope of psychedelic colour - I was mezmerized, because I KNEW these jewels WERE his body and that they were alive! And on his head he wore a crown of fire-jewels that leaped up and down all around his head like living flames. I asked him if he had come to help me and his eyes just told me how much he loved me. I stepped outside my house.

That "vision" has stayed with me all my life, Pep - I was not a Christian and knew nothing about the Holy Spirit and had never heard of Pentecost. It was years before I sat in a Christian church and heard the gospel story of Pentecost. I called him my Fairy King and carried him around in my heart. Now I know who He was, and I'm sharing him with you because in my heart I wonder who those jewels on his robe were - in our Church, we refer to ourselves as "the body of Christ" - all believers are "the body of Christ" - maybe when we die, we become one of those jewels that I saw......


He lets us be tried, and tested, and refined, that we might become one of his jewels.
I believe the word for diamonds is "Flawless."

I agree with you that Harley is the best straight talker on LB's, and assorted baggage. I always wanted to be better, but I didn't understand what was going on. Reading Harley helped me understand, and change.

I'm not saying I am any more "good" than I was 20 years ago, and I'm not sure that I wouldn't make the same mistakes all over again, but there are some very important lessons I have learned and I think I do try harder to adhere to how I believe I should behave instead of giving in to my own anger and self-righteousness...

You are not flawless yet? (SS smiles)
I suspect not, but God's grace is sufficient in the end for those who seek his face. If you continue in service to him, and to others, he will seal you his, and you will not be lost. You will find what it is that you want most.

I've had to try to clean up my act and change my behavior. I'm pretty sure that my despair comes from the fact that none of my work on myself seems to have had any impact on how my H feels about me or how he chooses to behave himself.

Remember in another time one who said "Come, follow me."
He gave all he had - and for those who follow him, it is more than enough. Some accepted his gift, but others rejected it, and hated him, and sought his life. Are we greater than he, that our lives should be easy? Our path smooth?

The fire must be hot enough to do it's work. It is after all, the refiners fire.

I realize you understand, I hope you don't mind a review. I am NOT preaching.
In my office, there is a copy of a painting of Christ walking with two of his disciple. He teaches, they listen, and discuss. I imagine we are walking along that same road. We converse, we learn from each other. In mind it is a good conversation. We are edified - God's spirit is there, and we learn from him, and our faith is strengthened.

I think someday we will be free of time, but for now it must be taken into consideration.
Soon, I'll break this off, and leave for all or part of the evening. - and leave a
"too be continued" on the end of it.

I am not going to say I have no regrets. I have a lot of regrets and I am trying to learn to live with that....ultimately, deep down inside me, although I know my H is entirely responsible for his own behavior and his own bad choices, I blame myself - because I did break off our first engagement, forseeing the whole scenario that is now happening...with older OW always on the scene, and with H not being able to be faithful...what I didn't forsee was the depth of my H's violent reactions and emotional aloofness...still, there was enough there that I should have listened to my intuition...so I feel responsible for bringing these children into the world and for their fate...I think the deeper truth is probably that I loved my H not despite the fact that he was bad, but BECAUSE he was bad. I found it exciting and wanted to be the ONE he would stop being bad for....lots of women are attracted to the "bad boy" - that is part of the refiner's fire - to be honest and admit that about myself.

I think all of us regret some parts of our lives. For sure we all fall short of what we could have been. Isn't that what Grace is all about?

I spoke to my Dad about this on Sunday and he told me that while that may be true, and that while I knew he could be "bad", I didn't have any way of knowing the depth to which that would go...so in that I have to forgive myself...

We do have to forgive our selves. It's not always easy though. How are you doing on that one?
When you pray, do you ask for help with it?

I'll be gone the next three days. Hope to finish this before I leave tomorrow.

Faith is kind of like a moonbeam. Sometimes it is hard to hold on to. When you pray after you read this, will you ask him this -
Will you ask "Father, are you there?"
I promise you can know that he is. I promise.

SS

PS, I quoted your dream without your knowledge or permission. If you wish it removed, please let me know.

Later edit -

Were I to be home the rest of this week, I might just do short posts, and ask you a lot more questions. Since I will be away (at a church sponsored youth conference) maybe I'll just talk for a while. I hope you don't mind.

I sincerely hope you find out why you have the pain in your side, and that it can be repaired, and your suffering eased. It takes a lot out of us when we have to endure that from day to day without rest. Especially it takes a lot out of us when we are not getting help from our partner to deal with it.

It was so good to hear you were working on your MA. I have considered going back myself, but right now it is not near the top of the list of what I want to accomplish.

I am glad you are on good terms with your father. Or it sounds as if you are. I admit that relationship worried me a great deal - based on what you reported shortly after your mother passed away. Are things a lot better, or do you just talk to him because he is willing to talk?

Hmmm, questions seem to always creep in. (SS smiles)

I'm going to go to bed now. I always write too much anyway, so you will probably be relieved that this is short!

It wasn't me that said you write too much. I always thought it was good for you to type out your thoughts. I still do. I think you agree with me too. (another smile.)

Sorry your boss is ill. We got our new computer system up just about a year ago. It was NOT FUN. Glad she supports you so well, and helps you. Glad you do the same for her. Really - isn't that what it is all about?

BTW, I Have not seen "Volver".
I thought about that for a while.
It makes sense that most directors don't understand women. I think MOST women don't understand women, and I know for sure than most men don't.

I do think many women need to trust them selves more. Are you one of those? It seems like you are getting there. Just an observation. That's what believe I see.

One of my cars has a flashlight under the seat. Er - I mean a torch. On a cold winter night, I needed it, and got it out and pressed the switch, but all I got was a feeble glow. It seems I had neglected to take care of it, and keep the batteries fresh. It's difficult to change a tyre in the rain, in the dark, and it took a long time.

Sometimes that same thing can happen to us. Often we look outward at all that we face, and neglect to charge our spiritual batteries. The savior told a story of the five foolish virgins who took no oil with them while they waited for the bridegroom. When the time came for the wedding feast, they were without oil, and their lamps were useless.

This parable also talks of 5 wise virgins, who kept their lamps always filled, and when the time came, they were ready.

I wish for you to be among the wise - I wish for you to take care of yourself.

This world we live in will hardly slow down and wait for us to prepare AS MUCH AS WE WOULD LIKE TO PREPARE.

However, we must take time to put oil in our lamps, or charge our batteries. You are often turned outward. Your concern is for your children, your boss, your job, and your H........... so many things take your time, and your energy, and your strength.

Please take the time for yourself that is needed. Time to read the scriptures. Time to think. Time to pray, time to rest. I know you will never get enough of any of these, but please take more than you are getting. Take time (as you already have, and as you have related above) to reflect upon your blessings. An hour to think on your relationship to God can be some of the best time you ever spend. Scripture study has enormous benefits.
There are two parts that make up who we are. The physical needs rest, and repair, or we soon are unable to function. The spiritual side is just as important.

I pray tonight that you will be able to recharge your spiritual batteries and so be better able to help those who need your help. That warm feeling that comes when the spirit of God is with us will be a help and strength to you in all that you do.

I believe you will be OK.
I hope God sends a sweet assurance that indeed you will.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/10/07 11:56 PM
I do remember my dream. I am happy that you also remembered it - so it has stayed with you, too...that makes me happy. It's him who keeps me going, or maybe I should say, He is there even when I forget that He is there.

Quote
I realize you understand, I hope you don't mind a review. I am NOT preaching.

SS - you are NOT preaching - you are sharing. Thank you for sharing....

Quote
Faith is kind of like a moonbeam. Sometimes it is hard to hold on to. When you pray after you read this, will you ask him this - Will you ask "Father, are you there?"
I promise you can know that he is.


Since last week, I have been just thanking God for everything. This week has been exceptionally tiring, which is why I haven't come back to answer you. Our new computer system at work is not working out, and my boss has been really ill. So it has been up to me and my colleague to assess the new system and together we have come to the definite conclusion that we should not go any further with this new system. Mid-week, I was exhausted and could hardly put one foot in front of the other, came home and went straight to bed. H and the boys took good care of me...I give my H credit for that. But I have been thanking God for everything....trudging along to work, feeling exhausted and tense, I still thanked Him, and you know what? My stress lifted....I felt calmer, lighter, and less tired. I think that is God answering me.

Quote
I am glad you are on good terms with your father. Or it sounds as if you are. I admit that relationship worried me a great deal - based on what you reported shortly after your mother passed away. Are things a lot better, or do you just talk to him because he is willing to talk?

I am on better terms with my father and stepmother now. My father calls me every Sunday night to check on me. Yes, there were a lot of bad feelings after my mom's funeral, but life is short and he doesn't have a lot of time left. He is kind and caring, even though he's got his own issues. My dad has chosen to start drinking again. I get to talk to him early in his day, so he's almost always sober when I talk to him. My sister gets to talk to him in the evening when he's had a bit to drink, and he can be more difficult then. She and I have come to accept him the way he is. Recently he upset his mother-in-law by tangoing in the nude down her hallway on the way to the bathroom. I figure there are worse things in life than having a dad like him.

Quote
PS, I quoted your dream without your knowledge or permission. If you wish it removed, please let me know.

That's OK with me...I doubt anyone can track me down from that, although anyone who knew me who really did read it would know. But that's OK with me, I don't mind.

I do feel a lot better the past few days. I got some rest this weekend. My tutor called me at work on Friday and I told her about the computer problems at work. She was a big help and we came up with a plan to put my studies on "temporary hold" - this does not mean I stop working on my MA, it means I don't have to meet the 10 July deadline. Because I know with the problems at work, I am not going to make my course deadline, but as soon as the pressure at work is off, I will make big progress in my coursework. So I feel markedly better now that I have a revised timetable for my work. I try to handle too much stuff at once. I was feeling stressed about having to give up my vegetable plot, too, which I planned to give up in October because it is lying fallow this year because of my health and work pressures. So I feel I might be able to consider not giving it up, and I can get the boys help to clear it this summer...then take better care of it next year. My vegetable plot is one of the things that gives me real peace, so I don't want to give it up, but it's not neighborly to let it go to weeds either...its my responsiblity to keep it clear...

My H also gave me an anniversary card which made me smile. We are no closer to reconciling, but I was glad he remembered. He has also got the loan of a house from a friend, during the summer, a really big house..and has suggested that we go there for a holiday, to get away, all of us....so I have agreed. It's the first time in our marriage that he has done this, which is what I always wanted...time together as a family, not visiting his friends, or older woman and her family, or his parents...just us. We'll see....

I haven't made an appt to see the priest I want to see yet, but strangely enough, my best friend, who is struggling with her own faith, went to see a priest this week, and talked to me about it, so that has encouraged me even more....maybe I am loosening up a little bit...-)

I've got to get some sleep now - have an important meeting tomorrow....but wanted to get back to you and thank you....

I'll be back!

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/14/07 12:14 AM
Glad he gave you a card. This is puzzling to me.
Is he usually thoughtful, and not doing a card would be odd for him, or is it odd that he did give a card?

The vacation sounds really nice too. They say (BTW, who is "they?) say that a change is as good as a rest. I hope it is restful for you.

How did the important meeting go? How is your boss doing?

I plan on doing more comments on the material already given....... we'll see if I can actually pull it off.

SS
Posted By: believer Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/18/07 11:01 PM
I'm bumping your thread up instead of confusing the other one.

Actually, I don't think it is wrong to stay with someone for the children's sake, or other practical reasons.

I'm divorced now because my husband never got rid of the OW, but I could have seen staying married.

I think I had my midlife crisis several years before he cheated. I looked at my life with him and was disatisfied. But over months, I decided to make as good a life as possible WITH him. When looking at our family (blended), there was just too much to lose.
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/19/07 10:41 AM
Hi believer -

I just posted a reply to JL on stonecold's thread - I don't want to hijack her thread, but I replied there because I thought she might like to see what I had to say...

I think the sitch with my H is that he is a serial cheater - he had one PA, but several EAs before that - after coming to MB in 2002, I learned a lot, and I don't see any of the signs that he is willing to change...I always figured he would have a PA...also his affairs don't last. I can understand why you would leave your H, if he refused to give up the OW - I think I would, too - but I figured H's affair would run out of steam, which I'm pretty sure it did. The thing is, he won't do the work on himself to ensure that he won't have another one. He has affairs because they are easy - because he is brilliant as a musician, attention comes his way, and probably because he is a performer, admiration is his no. 1 EN.

I am looking at my life with H, even though it is unsatisfactory - there IS a lot to lose here, and it's my kids who would potentially pay the biggest price. They are, at the moment, happier for us to stay married, even though it is not perfect.

If H refrains from being abusive, then it is better at the moment for them and me to stick with it. My kids talk to me. JL says this is talking behind his back. What if my H is autistic? That's a big possibility. Is it not fair for my kids to come and ask me questions because they trust me? I have to be very careful not to turn them against their father, but also to teach them responsible, compassionate behaviour. My kids are intelligent and in a lot of ways, more emotionally intelligent and mature than my H - sometimes, OS retreats upstairs to my room and says "Daddy's being weird again..." - I talk it through with him. I always ask him to be respectful when talking to his Dad. This approach yields huge benefits. Very often, after talking it through with me, they go back to Dad and do what it was he asked them to do without fuss, anger or resistance. H has a lot of issues, but he is trying to be a good Dad, and most of what he asks of them is legitimate, it's just that he can get very domineering when he feels he has to be in charge. But if we were to separate, they would be denied all the good benefits they get from having their Dad in the same house with them, and he does have a lot to give. On a site like this, you tend to focus on the negatives, but my H has a lot of positive qualities, too.

So its a tough call. Maybe I am in my midlife crisis now - I just turned 50 (arrrgh!) and I appear to be in menopause - yikes! - everything just quit with no warning last Sept.



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/19/07 10:58 AM
The card was puzzling to me, too - it was a little man with question marks over his head - said "where do we go from here?" - open it up and it said "to the Kings Head, the Rose and Crown or the White Horse?" (pub names). Cute card. It made me laugh. I put my arm around his shoulders and thanked him for it, said it made me laugh - he looked sad and sheepish and said "that was the idea". I gave him a card back - a pretty one - I said to answer the first question, I don't know, but are you looking for a map? And that if he wanted to go out, I'd love to.

I did go out with H a few weeks ago - to a concert we were given tickets to - it was the first time we have been out together in years alone, without the boys - we had a lovely time, saw a lot of our friends....got home, and he immediately ripped into me for something, I don't even remember what. H doesn't build on the good times we have. In fact, every time we have a good time, a bad time follows hard on its heels. It's like, he nips intimacy in the bud before it can take root. I am amazed we even managed to get married. But we must have had the right intentions when we started....

The important meeting went well - my boss was convinced to not continue with the new computer system....success for me and my colleague...

My boss is doing much better - now I am sick - I think I just got run down - a nasty virus, but I'm on the mend now...will be back at work tomorrow....

I am looking forward to the vacation....I can't help but wonder what H is thinking....I could decide not to go, but he seems to want me to go, so I have decided to go....I am just going to take things as they come and try to have a nice family time....

I've made a couple of posts here, which have helped me think through things a little. I'm still where I was before, but it has encouraged me to try to go talk to a priest, like I said before.

Hope you are well....
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/20/07 12:04 PM
Just to say that I called and made contact with the priest this morning. He is willing to talk to me, but won't be able to until the end of September. I don't think anything is going to change dramatically with my H between now and then, so I told him I am willing to wait rather than see another priest. I want to talk to this particular priest because he is from my home state and will have some idea of my personal cultural background, also he has a theologically "well-stocked mind" - my boys actually go to Mass in the hopes that they will hear one of his sermons - he communicates well and knows his stuff - he is approachable.

I told him I need to talk through some theological issues that I am struggling with in my marriage - I gave him some background, so he is aware of the kind of issues I'm dealing with. I also said I would look into getting counselling from another source, to start dealing with my emotional issues.

So I've made a start.
Posted By: believer Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/20/07 02:37 PM
Good job. He must be very popular, or busy. The end of September seems a long time to wait. But if you continue working on yourself, and making a nice life, it will be okay.
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/20/07 03:16 PM
Thanks believer -

He is going abroad for three months and will be back at the end of Sept.

I regard our marital problems as chronic - chronic dysfunctional with no expectation of change or dramatic upheaval - so I feel I would rather wait and talk to the (hopefully) the right guy....

In the meantime, I need to make a start on getting some IC for myself - again, I think that has to be with someone who is familiar with abuse, infidelity and personality disorders...a tall order...the UK is not well-equipped with psychologists - it's a glaring need in the countrys medical service sector. I don't want to talk to a "counselor in training" - someone who's gone on a 12-week counselling course...or someone who is a student...and the customary way of providing counselling here is to put you on a waiting list and then you get 6-8 sessions - it's crisis management, that's all. I have a friend who was suicidal and "sectioned" twice - locked up for a month - she went on the waiting list for psychotherapy....after 6 months (home on heavy meds) they called to find out what the delay was, were told her notes had been lost, so she had to go to the back of the queue - she didn't get psychotherapy until a year after her first suicide attempt...I mean, that's pretty bad...she's doing very well now...miraculously has made a full recovery, but would have had a much better time of it if she'd had the treatment she needed when she needed it....I think if the mental health services here were better, I would have found the right kind of help long ago. I'm sure there are a lot of other people in my situation.

That's one of the difficulties posting here for someone who lives in the UK. The expectations in the US are different...the UK is a completely different culture (REALLY!), with different provision, different attitudes, different approaches....the personal advice on MB is always good...human beings are amazingly universal in feelings and behaviour, but access to help can be completely different...

Thank you for keeping an eye on me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/20/07 05:46 PM
These greetings are always hard for me to type.

I wish to communicate enthusiasm, hope, love, peace and happiness. If we met in person - I would give you a hug, hold both your hands and look in to your eyes as I asked "how are you?" I would wait for an answer with a big smile - communicating care, but also joy. I would wait too........ until you told me how you really were.

This is kind of off topic, but sometimes it feels like you just need to talk to someone. We tend to avoid talking to our close friends about very personal things. (At least it seems like that to me.)

I am so glad Believer is here. (Hi Believer - SS waves)
She cares, and you can tell.

When I used to post to you, I would read what you wrote, think for a couple of days, read again, then post. (This is being typed with a big grin on my face.) I hate to post without a lot of thought - but I don't have that kind of time this month. We did our family vacation the first week, church youth conference the 2nd week, and we try to get a little work done in between. My W and I leave early Friday morning to go on a cruise. First cruise for me - the inside passage from Seattle to Alaska. We will be celebrating our 30th wedding anniversary. Church responsibilities take most of my "spare" time these days. My title is Bishop, but I think my duties are more like those of your priest. These duties get worked in around family things, and my employment. I suppose I am telling you this because my posts are not what I would like them to be, and I don't want you to think I don't care.

So.......... forgive me if I miss things, and don't give as much background as I might wish.

When I encouraged you to put oil in your lamp, I wasn't trying to say you had been foolish. I do think you need to garden, (or whatever works best for you) so that you have time to recharge your emotional batteries. I used to have ulcers, and nearly died from internal bleeding. My Doctor told me I could either die, or find a way to deal with it. I have learned to take time each day to think, and relax, and it has made all the difference.

We often think of God as this entity who loves mankind, and helps in an all encompassing way, but doesn't work with mankind one on one. I hope you feel his help personally - I know he does help one on one.

Think of this -
God knows everything.
We walk down the street, and we see only a little of what goes on around us. We see trees, grass, flowers, and buildings. We see the sun, feel the wind and smell whatever is on the breeze.

God sees the trees also, but he knows which trees have nests. He knows which nests have eggs, and baby birds. He is aware of the sun, but he can see the atomic processes take place - overall, or atom, by atom. We see the grass, but he knows where each ant is, and what it is carrying, and how that helps the ant colony.

The scripture says (from Matthew chapter 10)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

God knows you personally. If he were to visit you, he would call you by name. He knows which desk you sat in in third grade. He knows your teachers names, and he could tell you all your test scores from your spelling tests. He knows everything about you - and this is the good part.

He only uses the information he has on you to help - never to harm. Keep in mind he knows what is best for you, and he is never wrong.

I don't know what your theological questions are......... But I do know he wants you to have the answers you seek.

Now, having said all that............ What's for dinner tonight?
(Can you tell I'm a guy? )

I hope you laugh often. I think I know you well enough to know you will do well in the long run. The devil is in the details though, isn't it.

Would you like to talk more about the details?

SS
Posted By: Trix Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/20/07 06:15 PM
I just found and caught up with your thread this morning. Hadn't known friend4life was you.

So good to see you here again, LIR....sorry things haven't improved with your marriage.

SS,
Thanks, SS, for your edifying posts. (are you a pastor? if you don't mind answering: what denomination are you?)
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/20/07 08:22 PM
Hi Trix -
I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Sometimes called the Mormon church.

I'm not a pastor really - if I understand the term.
My day job is working in a camping store selling tents and sleeping bags. The church service is unpaid, part time. I do council local members in some things, and can refer them to professional councilors if needed. My main job is directing all that goes on in our local congregation. Part of that means making sure those who need help (in all areas of their lives) get what they need.

Thank you for your kind comments. I see from your children's ages that you are about the same place in life that we are - though we had a surprise on the tail end, and have twin girls (14) still at home. Our oldest son is also 29.

If memory serves me, you are in the bay area? I have a son who lives in Oakland.
I hope things are well with you.

SS
Posted By: Trix Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/20/07 11:06 PM
SS, I think I already knew that you are a LDS. I either asked a while ago, read it, or guessed because of the area you live near and the number of kids you have. We have neighbors across the street who are LDS whom we've known for 27 yrs.

Our son just turned 30 in May , so I just updated that info. I grew up in the SF Bay area but have lived in the Tampa Bay area for the last 27 yrs.
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/20/07 11:30 PM
Quote
I wish to communicate enthusiasm, hope, love, peace and happiness. If we met in person - I would give you a hug, hold both your hands and look in to your eyes as I asked "how are you?" I would wait for an answer with a big smile - communicating care, but also joy. I would wait too........ until you told me how you really were.

You do this very well - that's the feeling I get from you, even in cyberspace. Thank you. We have a priest at our church - he's a married Catholic priest - one of the few Anglicans who transferred over and were allowed to remain priests even though they were married - his wife isn't Catholic - he's like this with me. I went to speak with him in 2002, at the same time I came here...his eyes are full of joy...every time he sees me he asks how I am...I say I'm OK...he can tell I'm not...he's now dying of cancer, but palliative care has made it possible for him to say Mass. Every word he speaks is precious to me because he is so close to death...his voice is still strong and vibrant...last week, I decided to approach him after Mass and tell him the dream which you reprinted here. I felt that he had given to me, and I wanted to give back to him something to help him through the days ahead....I wanted him to have a vision of who is waiting for him on the other side. I told him I would only take a few minutes of his time, and he and I stood in the hallway outside the sacristy - he took my hands and looked straight into my eyes as I told it to him - his eyes were filled with joy...it really is lovely to share. I get that kind of peace coming from you, too, SS - and...I had guessed your church was the Mormon church...-)

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This is kind of off topic, but sometimes it feels like you just need to talk to someone. We tend to avoid talking to our close friends about very personal things. (At least it seems like that to me.)

I think that you are absolutely right about me. I do just need to talk to someone. I have been "dark" for two years, out of fear, because of the bad situation I referred to above with my kids' school. But now that the follow-on inspection report has been published, I have nothing to fear regardless. This needing to talk is a sign that I am ready for counselling, I think. I am grateful that I have been able to come back here and try to work out these needs in my head...and also, I do have good friends, but you know, friends are always biased...here, you are more likely to get an objective response.

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I am so glad Believer is here. (Hi Believer - SS waves)
She cares, and you can tell.

I am too. I know she does. I remember when she came to the forum...something about motorbikes....-)

Quote
When I used to post to you, I would read what you wrote, think for a couple of days, read again, then post. (This is being typed with a big grin on my face.) I hate to post without a lot of thought - but I don't have that kind of time this month. We did our family vacation the first week, church youth conference the 2nd week, and we try to get a little work done in between. My W and I leave early Friday morning to go on a cruise. First cruise for me - the inside passage from Seattle to Alaska. We will be celebrating our 30th wedding anniversary. Church responsibilities take most of my "spare" time these days. My title is Bishop, but I think my duties are more like those of your priest. These duties get worked in around family things, and my employment. I suppose I am telling you this because my posts are not what I would like them to be, and I don't want you to think I don't care.

It's OK - I am grateful for the time you give. I know there are a lot of other people on this forum, too, who benefit from your help. I don't know how you do so much.

Quote
When I encouraged you to put oil in your lamp, I wasn't trying to say you had been foolish. I do think you need to garden, (or whatever works best for you) so that you have time to recharge your emotional batteries. I used to have ulcers, and nearly died from internal bleeding. My Doctor told me I could either die, or find a way to deal with it. I have learned to take time each day to think, and relax, and it has made all the difference.

I had a dream that I was riding a bicycle and felt the tire going flat - I pulled in for a pitstop and the mechanic showed me that I worn the tread away completely, in fact, I was riding on the rim - no tire left at all - could God, and you, be trying to tell me something???-)

About your ulcer - have you been checked for Helicobacter pylori? It would be a simple blood test. My dad had an ulcer for 40 years and had a bleed where he lost 40% of his blood. Silly man - he's a doctor and didn't recognize the signs...(rolls eyes)...anyway, I told him about this because I had seen a program on television about it...he got himself checked and lo and behold, he had it...it is cured with a simple 3-week treatment of antibiotics plus bismuth...it is a spirochete bacteria which bores holes in your stomach lining, and 85% of stomach ulcers are caused by this. You could look it up on the web...it is one of the great medical discovery stories...the doctor who discovered it couldn't get anyone to believe him, so he drank a potion of the bacteria and made himself hideously ill, then cured himself...he's now at Univ of Virginia, working on stomach cancer....maybe you are one of the 15% whose ulcer is not caused by Helicobacter pylori, but if you are, you needn't suffer anymore...



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The scripture says (from Matthew chapter 10)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

And what's that one about having your name "written on the palms of my hands"? Isaiah?

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God knows you personally. If he were to visit you, he would call you by name. He knows which desk you sat in in third grade. He knows your teachers names, and he could tell you all your test scores from your spelling tests. He knows everything about you - and this is the good part.

He only uses the information he has on you to help - never to harm. Keep in mind he knows what is best for you, and he is never wrong.

I don't know what your theological questions are......... But I do know he wants you to have the answers you seek.

Now, having said all that............ What's for dinner tonight?
(Can you tell I'm a guy? )

Salmon fishcakes!! I've been sick for three days, but fully recovered today so I decided to treat them all - I let YS pick out what he wanted me to make...he helped me - they were good, good, good!

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Would you like to talk more about the details?

Do you mean do I want to talk more about the details, or about the Devil? Scared of him and wish he would let go of my H.

About that "only uses the information he has on you to help, never to harm..." It's good to remember this. Do you think that we should aspire to be the same? I have a lot of information on my H, and I really don't want to hurt him, but I have felt forced to expose some of his behaviour in order to protect myself. I think this is what has harmed my H's feelings for me...the knowledge that I have gone to a solicitor and turned over evidence that is irrefutable proof of his transgressions - material that can really hurt him. I think he thinks that I wanted to hurt him. I didn't. I was afraid of what he would do and I needed to protect myself legally. I needed him to know that he wouldn't be able to get away with hurting ME. So when I told him that he could sue me for divorce if we slept apart for two years, because I really don't want to do something that will damage his reputation, I think that is why he came home and hugged me. He was relieved to know that I would not do this to him. So I have to keep my word to prove to him that I mean it. Kinda got myself into it, didn't I? Sounds crazy, but I'm trying to be merciful. I also what him to have what he really wants, and if he wants a divorce he can have one.

I did have an experience of forgiveness a few months ago - I was sick then, too and had to spend a couple of days in bed. I woke up one morning and it was like someone was pouring a river of clear water through my head - it was all clean and fresh, and I felt no anger or animosity or grievance against my H - just a very large benevolence - and this was there even though he had done what he had done - it all just didn't matter anymore. I felt what it would be like to not feel hurt and angry anymore. He came to see how I was and I asked him to come sit on the bed - I told him about it and that I didn't know why, but I wasn't angry with him for anything anymore, and I put my arms around him and hugged him. He leaned over and put his head in his hands. He said he was sorry things had to be the way they were but we just had to go on like this. It was so sad.

That hasn't made any difference. He is still angry and unhappy and keeps himself to himself. He still says that he doesn't love me. I don't know...maybe he is just totally disillusioned with himself and doesn't know how to go on...doesn't believe it is possible, and hates himself...probably still haunted by memories of OW, and maybe he is someone who has to be "in love" in order to feel happy - a "romance" addict.

Well - I have to go now. Time for sleep. I wanted to say Hi to Trix - I remember you, too - so nice to hear from you. Thank you for stopping by.

I'll meditate for awhile on what you said, SS. I'm slow...takes awhile to sink in...

All the best,
LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/22/07 06:45 AM
I was sure I could get packed, and get everything ready, and still post, but it isn't working.

It's after midnight, and we need to be on the road to the airport by 6 am, so this will be short. We are doing a cruise from Seattle to Alaska along the coast to celebrate our 30th. I may not be back on the web until July 3rd.

LIR, I hope you are well. We'll be praying for you. I hope you smile a lot, and laugh enough when it's needed.

"See" you when we get back. Sorry this is so short.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/04/07 03:47 AM
How are you this morning?

Or whenever you read if it's not morning.

How are the boys?

Your H is about the same?

Oh, and your boss is well now?

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/11/07 11:26 PM
Bump
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/12/07 12:29 AM
Hello ss -

I'm really sorry it's been so long. I hope your cruise was everything you hoped it would be. My father and his wife went on an Alaska cruise several years ago and loved it. My father is not a "cruise" person, but he admitted to having a lovely time and said he would not have missed seeing the ice cliffs for the world - loved the color of the ice....I hope you had a good holiday.

Thank you for coming back to check on me so soon. I apologize for not responding until now. I knew you were away and I got overwhelmed and didn't come back to check until yesterday. I haven't been able to post until now.

It's now midnight here so I won't stay up too much longer, but when it's quiet, I am able to concentrate better.

I'm OK. My boys are doing well. My older son is now out of school for the summer. He has completed his first year in his new secondary school. He won a scholarship to that school and won a significant prize at the end of this year for his achievement in his specialty. I think this has done a lot for his confidence. He has settled down this year, made new friends and is starting to come out of his shell a little, although he remains very shy. The teachers in his new school have been very good and have realized that rather than being arrogant, he is simply awkward because he is shy, that he underachieves because he does not want to stand out, but he is really quite bright. They and I are expecting that next year he will start performing more up to his level intellectually. Last year, my son went through the selection process for scholarships. He is very single-minded and had his heart set on a particular school. He entered the scholarship auditions, but failed. The school he is at now is his second choice. I actually believe that God knows best and that the school he is at now is the perfect school for him. But it was an ordeal for him to go through the selection process and fail his first choice. It was a great growing experience for him, though and he is more mature because of it.

My younger son has 1 1/2 more weeks to go. Tomorrow he has his induction day for his new school - making the change to secondary school in Sept. He is very excited - really positive about it as he will see a friend that he hasn't seen in two years. It's a good school which can offer him a lot, so I am very pleased that he has managed to get in. This is one of the reasons I have not separated from my H, even though I am unhappy and it is not an ideal situation. In my area, children go through a selection process at age 11 - they are tested in maths, verbal and non-verbal intelligence. If they pass the test, they can be accepted into a more academic school - in other words, the smart ones get to go to better schools. It's not fair and I don't like it, but that's the system. I worked hard with my son from Sept last year until he took the test in January of this year...he also had some private coaching. He passed the test right on the mark he had to get to pass. It was his choice to take the test and I am proud of him, and very relieved that he didn't fail. It's way too much pressure to put on kids at this age, and I wish they would abolish it, but so far they haven't...my point is that this was a crucial time in his life and this will have a big impact on his future....I didn't feel that separating from my H would be the right thing for him at that time.

So you see, last year, my older son had to go through his particular selection process, and this year, it was my younger son's turn. Both of them have succeeded in their goals and gained places in good schools.

Would they have achieved this if I had been embroiled in a plan B these last 2 years? I don't think so. I admit that my marriage is a mess, but I don't think I could have done any better.

On a different note, I have talked to someone else, someone I know who is a psychiatrist. I started talking to her about seeking counselling for myself. I think some of what she said was very helpful. Like she said that if I went for counselling it would need to be for me, not to try to find a diagnosis of my H, since he won't come to counselling. I knew that and felt that already, but she elaborated and said that even if they were able to diagnose my H and attach a label to him and his spectrum of behaviours, that it is still MY experience of him which matters - that the 18 years I have spent with him every day give me a better picture of what he is like...that I am the best one to judge what the trouble is and how I think I can deal with it...but what therapy can offer me is healing for my own "injuries".

I think talking to her helped me feel more ready to start IC - I realized that I need someone to talk to...I AM very lonely, even though I have some very good friends. I just have this feeling that it is not enough. And I'm scared that I can't relate on an intimate level anymore. I'm too scared of being vulnerable, and have become used to being out on my own, so to speak. I think I have to deal with that before it goes any further.

My H is about the same. Same pattern. Just when I thought things were going pretty well...he was starting to tease me again, we were kissing goodbye in the morning, little hugs here and there...he even complimented me on my new skirt...suddenly we end up in an argument over something really small and stupid....well, one of those things...same old stuff....communication goes all totally haywire somehow...I take offense at his tone of voice with me, he insists he is being clear when he is being obtuse, I get upset, he shouts, he accuses me of shouting at HIM and putting him down, I say I've had enough, this will never work, I leave. Go away and cry.

The details were that several months ago, he asked me to take some stuff to the dump, which he put in the back of the car....OK, I KNOW it was months ago....but I AM very busy...I make promises, and I don't always keep them in the time frame he wants me to do them in...I keep them, but in my time frame. I also had trouble doing this because it turned out there wasn't a place at the dump for electrical equipment and old printers, etc, like there was supposed to be, so, actually, I did go to the dump months ago, but brought the stuff back, meaning to find a charity to take the stuff...things being how they are, I never got around to doing that..and there it sat minding it's own business, until now...when I actually DO have time to deal with it.

So...the car breaks down...we buy a new car and have to clean out the old one...now he's frustrated because we have to transfer the stuff from the old car to the new one, and it STILL has to go to the dump. OK, I can perfectly understand why he is frustrated with me. I apologize and say I will do it ASAP, after I get back from taking YS to school. H decides not to wait and gets on with doing it himself...but he seems pretty resentful about it to me. He's just not the least bit cheerful...he's very business-like with me, telling me what to do. We get the job done (its not that big a deal - just a few bags and boxes and he has transferred most of the stuff by the time I get there) - I'm ready to go to the dump (having decided to put it all in the crusher as there is nowhere else to put it) - and he says to me as I am leaving..."BTW, there is a CD player in a bag in there - make sure you don't throw that away".

I stop, because I KNOW there is an old CD player in a bag in there, which he specifically asked me to get rid of. So it sounds to me like he is changing his mind. I say "Are you sure? I thought you said you wanted me to get rid of it." "I just said not to." "But before you wanted me to throw all this stuff away. Are you now saying you want me to keep it?" Now he gets upset, like I'm challenging him. "Look, I have said it clearly...there is a CD player in a bag in there, make sure you don't throw it out with everything else!" Now I get upset. "Don't take that tone of voice with me, I'm just trying to clarify what you want." "I've said what I want, I don't know how I can be clearer!" And he REALLY starts talking down to me - then he accuses me of trying to "catch him out" and trying to make him look stupid. I don't know what he's talking about now, and I get really upset with him for being upset with me. I feel I am only trying to satisfy him - I am afraid of doing the wrong thing and am trying to clarify what he wants. I am also tired of being treated like this and decide to stand up for myself, but I get mad and finally stomp off saying he has to look at how he communicates and this is never going to work!

I drive off, crying, get to the dump and discover that there are TWO CD players in bags in the car - the broken one, AND the car stereo that he has removed from the other car. So he was talking about the car stereo, not the broken CD player. Of course, he wants the broken one to be got rid of, he just didn't want me to throw away the good one.

So my question is...why didn't he just say that? Could he not tell that I was confused...especially when he is the one who had moved the stuff from one car to the other...he had to have noticed that the old CD player was one of the items he had moved - it was only half in, half out of a bag. But maybe he didn't - so maybe it was all a big misunderstanding. Or maybe he deliberately set me up. Maybe he deliberately unconsciously set me up and I fell right into it. Because he was getting too close to me, so he had to set me up to fight with him so he could feel bad about me again. I got really upset with him at this point (while I was at the dump) because I felt that he did all of that on purpose - deliberately withheld the information - that he KNEW there were 2 CD players in bags in the car, that he realized I didn't know what he was talking about, and made no effort to clarify himself with me, that he knew what I was confused about and was willing to let me stay confused...that he wanted a row and engineered one and I fell right into it.

This is an old pattern. I guess its still active.

So that happened and I guess it has all helped me realize that I need to get some counselling for myself. You said in one of your posts that I seem to use my thread to think through a lot of stuff that I need to talk about and I think you are right, ss. I think that is what I do, and it is probably an indication that I need counselling.

I just read welderman's thread - he sounds a lot like me, except his kids are older. I can relate to how he feels.

Anyway, I've got to sign off now.

Thank you for asking after me.

All the best,
LIR
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/12/07 09:28 AM
Hello Trix -

I'm so sorry I didn't reply to you...hello, too.

I apologize for not acknowledging you earlier. I hope you are doing well.

LIR
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/12/07 10:15 AM
I had a post all done and lost it, but I'm going to do it again, because I think it's important.

Here I am again - it's morning and I have a busy day ahead - it was a busy school run morning, with YS going to an induction day at his new school...I bought a family ticket to the event this afternoon/evening for all new families...H is working all day and says he can't go...I think I will go anyway...

On reflection, I have been thinking that the incident with the CD players is an example of "crazy-making" - it sure made me feel like I was going crazy, and I got very emotionally upset. I still can't figure out whether it was a misunderstanding or whether it was a set up on his part to get me into a fight. JL, on another thread, said to me that I am punishing him by refusing to engage with him, and that I didn't have any business complaining as I have exactly the kind of marriage I want. This kind of thing is exactly why I refuse to engage anymore. With the best will in the world, I end up snarled up in something I don't understand and a serious breakdown in communication and good will. But I can't see myself staying with this forever.

To finish off that incident, later in the day I went into H's workroom (knocked first) and said "I'm sorry about this morning. When I got to the dump I found out there were TWO CD players in the car." I waited. "Oh," was all H said. "I was confused because I thought there was only one CD player in the car and I had thought you wanted that one thrown away. I didn't realize that you were talking about the car stereo. When I was trying to talk to you, I was only trying to clarify what you wanted because I was confused by what you were saying." H didn't reply. So I left it at that. Maybe I should have asked him directly whether he knew there were 2 CD players in the car, but I thought he would take that as confrontational and interrogating, and I didn't think he would respond well. Maybe I shouldn't have apologized to him, but I feel it is important to me that I try to make the space for reconciliation and he can respond as he wishes. In this case he didn't apologize for himself, or explain himself or make any further comment on the matter. He accepted what I said and did not offer any further comment or response. For me, it is important to me that I make the effort so that I remain a person who is able to try to communicate.

On another note, these last two weeks, I have been "being there" for my friend who had a breakdown two years ago and has now been diagnosed as bipolar. Thankfully she has stabilized. Last week, my H came home from a funeral and said he had met a couple, the wife suffering from bad Post Natal Depression. He had taken their phone number and he urged me to call the wife, as he said we had a lot in common and he thought it might be helpful for her to talk to me. I said to my H that what I would say to her was that PND was a finite condition but needs careful management, and that I would put her in touch with the PND Association, which was what was most helpful to me. I went ahead and called this lady, who had a long chat with me. I hope I was helpful to her.

But to me this is noteworthy because I think my H MUST feel that I am mentally healthy enough to offer support to this lady, someone I don't even know. He also notes how I support my best friend, who has been quite seriously ill. So how come I am mentally healthy enough, in his eyes, to offer support to these people, but when it comes to relating to HIM, I am nuts?

I think the fact that I am "talking" again means I am ready for IC. But I don't want my IC to be a litany week after week of the crazy-making incidents...

Sometimes, with my H, I feel like I am dealing with two different people.

Thanks for listening.

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/15/07 11:57 AM
I only have a minute - and I wanted to say hi.

Hi !!

Your H sounds so much like me. For sure I will comment. You sound a lot like my W.

Must go, see you later. I hope your day is a good one.

Lets see....... It would probably be noon or thereabouts for you. I hope the rest of the day is good.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/15/07 11:00 PM
So glad you're still there. I was afraid you'd be annoyed that I didn't come back to check for awhile. I don't want you to think that you're wasting your time.

My next step is to call the counselling center. It's a Christian counselling center - where I went in 2002. I found out that the psychiatrist friend I mentioned is on the board of trustees there. I think if she is involved, it must be good, so I think I will give them a second chance.

We just had a kind of flash electrical storm here about an hour ago - HUGE bolts of lightning, lots of thunder, massive downpour, lashings of wind and finally, hail. It took about an hour to approach, then move over and away. When we went out the front to watch it retreating, we found the streets filling with water, the man-hole covers had jets of water spouting out - the drains were overwhelmed. They went down after about 20 minutes....so no houses were flooded in our neighborhood. But we are supposed to get another intense bout of rain between 4-7am...there are no flood warnings out for our area - but I have stuffed towels under the doors just in case.....

I did have a good day (other than YS opening a can of red model paint in the car and getting it on the back seat upholstery - sheesh! tear my hair out sometimes - carpet cleaner got it all off - lucky for him!) - went to church, then home - YS went round to a friend's for the afternoon, OS dragged me out to the squash court to "play" - H has been teaching him to play, trying to get him more physically active...I am not in good shape so felt like melting into a puddle after 10 minutes, but it was good for me and I managed half an hour....tomorrow I'm going swimming again with my friend, who is dragging me out to the swimming pool....then OS made dinner - he decided what he wanted to make and I got him all the ingredients...I served as washer-upper and general guide, while he did all the work. LOL! Tasted good!

Thank you for listening. I'm interested in what you might have to say about the "CD player" incident. That incident illustrates just why I try to stay away from my H. I know that there may be ways I could communicate better, but there is such a history of aggression there that I get scared and angry. He and I get along fine as long as we stay out of each other's way....

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/16/07 05:06 AM
So glad you're still there. I was afraid you'd be annoyed that I didn't come back to check for awhile. I don't want you to think that you're wasting your time.

Oh yeah? <big grin>
Well, I've often wondered if you would get tired of waiting for me to do a decent, well thought out reply, and that YOU might not come back.

I guess now we are even <another great big grin>

I hope to do a decent reply tomorrow. I hate to say I'll do it, and then not do it. It causes me to feel guilty when I don't follow through. Sometimes it's easier to not say anything. (Now I'm laughing)

I worry if I come by two or three times and say something like "I'll get around to talking to you soon" that you will think I don't care. Ah - the joys of communicating on the net.


He and I get along fine as long as we stay out of each other's way....

SS shakes head, and laughs.
Yes, I can see that. Except.......... you are married, and you crave affection, conversation, and closeness. One heck of a way to live married life.

Ok, I'll be back.
Really - I promise.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/16/07 05:11 AM
I did have a good day (other than YS opening a can of red model paint in the car and getting it on the back seat upholstery - sheesh! tear my hair out sometimes - carpet cleaner got it all off - lucky for him!)

I had to comment.

It's difficult to understand boys. Thanks for not killing him out of hand. My mom let me live too - and I am thankful. Some days my W is thankful too.

Now why couldn't he have waited until he was in a nice work space, with news paper spread out to catch any spills?

Answer -

He could have, he just didn't want to.
That's how boys are. I know from personal experience.

I had to get that out - SS laughs some more.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/17/07 10:44 PM
How much do you want?

This week is girls camp for my W and daughters. It just so happens that I get to go to part of it and do part of the teaching.

The bad part is that I don't get to sleep with my W :-(

She sleeps with the other adult ladies, and I sleep with the other men who are on staff to help with teaching.

Oh well, at least I don't have to stay home by myself.

My W leaves Wed morning early with the twins, and I leave Thursday. She just left to go home and do more packing. She is in charge of the food and cooking for our group. She wasn't able to do as much as she wanted last night because the power was out due to a brush fire under the main transmission line. She was going to do some of the shopping for food, but the stores were closed because of the power outage.

I told her what you have been going through, and asked for comments, and she just said she is glad she doesn't have to walk in your shoes, because she doesn't know if she could be strong enough. That was all she had time for this week.

I have been checked for Helicobacter pylori. Interestingly enough, I had read an article on it, and asked my doctor to do the test. (You had asked above.)
It turns out that my ulcers were mostly from stress. The doctor told me "You can change how you cope, or you can die."
I changed how I cope, and I have not had problems for nearly 10 years now. It means I don't drive myself so hard, and some things don't get done, but I am healthy now.

Now, where to start?

I know there is too much info above for me to comment at length about everything, so I'll use the shotgun approach. I'll just start typing, and see if I hit anything important.

Well, all of it is important - Hmmm, I should start over?

Probably not, it's always hard to begin.

It is late evening for you now, if I hurry, You can read it before you sleep.

Sometimes I get in these talkative moods, I'll see if I can settle down, and do something useful.

Reading back, I see that there has not been a great deal of progress for you over the last few years. (You meaning the two of you in your marriage.)

Do you feel you are making personal progress, or is lack of progress one of the reasons why you are seeking counseling?

In reading down through these recent posts, I find I want to comment on everything, but I can't. (and I said that already, didn't I?)

However, there are some I will comment on.
And my last thought is that it is possible that my H has something organically wrong with him.

It is a real possibility. I would imagine even if there were, and you could identify it, he would still have to agree to do something about it. I think when we have the struggles that you have had, we almost wish we could find something like that. It makes it so much easier to stay when we know it's not their fault. It is more difficult to stay when they choose to behave as they do. I often wonder how we can know for sure.

I have been reading more - and I skip around a bit.

I can't imagine how it must have been to go through the ordeal with the school and then find that your H was in another EA. Men seen to be more distant from problems with their children, and we sometimes may even seem not to care. I know my W sees many things differently than I do (speaking of raising children) and some things that I don't worry much about keep her awake nights thinking about them. So, there is sometimes this natural difference to cope with, but them to find out he was investing time and energy into a relationship with another women must have been especially painful. If he was making a huge effort to repair the damage, perhaps it could mend, but it looks like he is not.

Here's a double quote -


Quote
SS asked:
How is your faith?
You answered:
Frail but not gone. Sometimes I hear Him. He must be with me or I wouldn't still be here.


I would like to hear your doubts, and questions. Perhaps you won't want to talk about these thing here.

This is one of the reasons I stick around on MB. I know God is real. My knowledge is practical, not theoretical. I know because I have gotten help, and felt his love. When we know that God is really there, and that he helps directly when it is best that he do so. When we know that he watches over us, takes care of us, and that our struggles are not in vain. When we know that no matter what we go through, we can still have success..... it is easier to keep going.

You can still have success.

I am not going to say I have no regrets. I have a lot of regrets and I am trying to learn to live with that....

I think we all have regrets of one kind or another. This is what the atonement of Christ is all about. He takes our good faith effort (that we start to make after our mistakes,) and makes things right. I do not understand how he can, but I know that he does.
"With his stripes we are healed."

Can you feel that? I hope you can.

BTW, how is this pain in your side? Does it come and go, or is it always with you?

For a while I had a problem with my leg. It would start to shake for no reason - and it HURT like someone was sticking me with a million needles all at once. If I could stand and walk, it would go away much faster, but if I was sitting (in a car) and had to remain sitting, it was terrible. It gradually went away, and I have not had the experience for ........ probably two years or more.

We never knew what caused it, where it came from, or why it left me. It's just good that it is gone now.

I suppose I am telling you so that you may have hope that your pain is not permanent. It would be wonderful if you could find relief from this - so as to be able to better concentrate on the other things that need your attention.

Read what you said about telling your boys about what had happened with your H. So glad they know now. What a relief.

A relief for me - but probably more so for you. Once they know, a lot of other things start to make more sense to them. Lots of questions that were in the back of their minds have been answered. (Why is my Mum angry with Dad?)

They have the pieces to the puzzle now, and it is easier for them to see the big picture.

It's getting later and later for you, and you don't know I am writing this. Maybe I'll post what I have, and write more later.

SS
Posted By: believer Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/17/07 11:42 PM
My goodness - your husband reminds me of my ex. It seems like it is just a male/female thing. Your best bet would have been not to question him, just save the CD player. Then next time something needs to go to the dump, suggest that he go.

My ex had an annoying habit of not taking my car in to be fixed. And he knew all about cars. Then, whatever I decided to do, he would be angry. If the mechanic suggested the belts be changed, and I got them changed, my ex would let me know that I had been "taken". If the mechanic suggested the belts be changed and I didn't have them changed, then my ex would want to know why not. It got to where I dreaded taking the car in.

But I think it is mostly a male/female thing. But let's keep watching your husband and see if it keeps happening, and if there is some way you can escape harsh disagreements.
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/18/07 05:27 PM
Hi there -

I've got a few minutes here (just a few while the boys and H are out of the house having some "Dad" time) so I'm also going to take the "shotgun" approach - sometimes my brain works better that way - (does that mean my brains are shot?)-)

Thank you for coming back - I know you are very busy. Please don't think that I think you don't care enough to post a long post. I appreciate your long posts because I know you pray for insight into a particular person's problem, but I also appreciate your short posts - it just helps to know someone is rooting for you....

Thank you, too - Believer - I'm going to answer your post, too, separately, probably later tonight when I'm alone and have more time....

First off, it didn't flood....but apparently Friday is going to be REALLY bad all over the UK - we are not in the flood-hit areas, but that doesn't mean it couldn't also happen to us - there is a river running through our town and our drains overloaded really quickly the other night....I called and made a complaint to the local county Highway authority...they are supposed to come out and clear the drains but I expect they are very busy....

I hope I was reasonable with YS over the red paint....he did it in the new car, which is in pristine condition....I was extremely upset...actually I was dead scared and it was an instance where I was really scared of what H would do if he had to find out...both to YS and to me...the worst H ever got mad at me for was over damage to the car...anyway, it was upsetting, but I realized I had to deal with YS fairly and not dump my fear of H onto him. I took the paint away from him and threw it away. I told him he owed me the money for the paint. I then told him I was extremely disappointed in him and we would talk about it when we got home. I bought carpet cleaner at the supermarket and when we got home, I cleaned off the paint...it took some time, but it came off completely. Afterwards, I sat YS down and asked him what he had learned from this experience. He said he had learned not to take the lid off a paint can in the car. I said "and anywhere near upholstery..." - "what's upholstery?" "...well you know, sofas and things like that" - I said he had learned a good practical lesson, but there was more I wanted him to think about. He tried to come up with a "right answer", and I said he should think down inside himself about what he felt, not try to find the answer he thought I wanted to hear. His eyes got tearful and I said I knew he was sorry for what he had done and that he hadn't meant to cause any damage. But I said he needed to think more about what he was doing, because it bothered me that he didn't think about these things, and at almost 12, he was old enough, and he really needed to start thinking about things as much for his own safety as for others. I said he had a responsibility to me and to his dad to take care of things that belonged to us. It was not that our things were more important than him, but that things that cost us money and that were part of our life were expensive to replace and repair, and he had a responsiblity to us to make an effort in that respect. He nodded a lot, with tearful eyes. Then we hugged and I said we would leave it at that and I wouldn't tell his dad.

On the ulcer thing - I'm glad you don't have helicobacter pylori - I'm interested in how you changed to cope with stress. How do you cope with stress? You get a lot done...how do you manage this?

Quote
[bold]And my last thought is that it is possible that my H has something organically wrong with him.[/bold](I've forgotten how to boldface things...goofy grin)

It is a real possibility. I would imagine even if there were, and you could identify it, he would still have to agree to do something about it. I think when we have the struggles that you have had, we almost wish we could find something like that. It makes it so much easier to stay when we know it's not their fault. It is more difficult to stay when they choose to behave as they do. I often wonder how we can know for sure.

I think that hits the mark...it would be so much easier to stay if I knew it wasn't his fault - that he had some kind of a diagnosis....it is extremely difficult not to feel resentment when you think he is just choosing to behave as he does...and I really don't know for sure....

My conversation with my psychiatrist friend helped me put this into perspective....I think I have hung on to the prospect of counselling in the hopes that it would produce a recognizable diagnosis for him, and THEN I imagined he would have to recognize himself and do something about it - he seemed so close to this in 2002 - but he backed away from that and that may be WHY he absolutely refuses to go into analysis or any form of counselling - because he thinks it might be true that there is something wrong with him and he doesn't want to face it..it's too stressful for him to address that....so he's really trying hard just to hang on to what he has and function as best he can...he has pretty much told me this in brief snippets of strained conversation over this past year....in 2002 when he was stressed and yelling at me (on various occasions) he yelled that he "didn't have a personality disorder" - that "THIS was the problem" - yelling and pointing at his chest - and that he "wasn't allowed to feel"....I was very concerned that he would have a breakdown....now, WS by their nature are very duplicitous, and some carry out acts they wouldn't normally do, but there are some who are genuinely troubled...for whatever reason...I've seen people "crack up" and no, they don't always recover to their old selves...they can become schizoid and their stress hormones can permanently unbalance them....I didn't want this to happen to my H, so I "cooled" the pressure on him to go to counselling in 2003...probably with the result that he had a 3rd EA in 2005, which became a PA. It's hard to know really what happened, but my instinct tells me that that was better than him having a breakdown from which he might never recover.

I guess I have arrived at the point where I have given up all hope that he will seek or accept counselling, so I have decided to work on my own healing and at the moment, I'm trying to set up some counselling for myself....I might just be stupid, but there is only so much I can handle at a time, and I haven't felt up to it until lately....

The school thing was horribly stressful and finding out he was having another EA while we were trying to protect our kids and fighting against some extremely powerful people and institutions was too much for me to cope with...I don't think his EA was physical when I found out about it....I think I pushed him into it becoming a PA because I turned on him when I found out...so in a way, I am partly responsible for it turning PA. I told him "you're a stranger to me now. You'll have to get whatever you need out of a woman from someone else from now on." And I have to admit that I still feel this loathing for him. It's just a gut feeling...he knew what we were up against, and I had also gone to bat for him against these people. He betrayed me after I had defended him. He was willing to leave our children where I felt it was unsafe and unhealthy. I now think that he succumbed to the OW pursuing him online at this time. He started out as rational as I was where the children's safety was concerned. But he changed at one point - he did all the WS stuff - became distant, lost interest in me, lost interest in our struggle for the children, started saying it would be better if they stayed there....I was going nuts with stress, the kids were going nuts, he wasn't seeing it....I now think he was "in love" with OW3 and didn't want to HAVE to think about them...in other words, his EA was impairing his thinking about his children's safety and he wanted them to stay in boarding school so he didn't have to think about them too much....so he could be free to carry on being Casanova on the side....well, I suspected this was going on in his head....and I persisted in following through with bringing the kids home....I don't regret it, even though our marriage is a total mess...but finding out my suspicions were true just destroyed my respect for him....its a gut feeling. I don't know if I can get over that.

I have to wrap this up now but will come back to do some more thinking later....-)

LIR
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/18/07 10:35 PM
OK, I'm baack!-)

I do tend to ramble a lot before I get to the point - I guess what I am saying in the above post is that in 2002-03, I thought my H was a "normal" (normalish) WS - but when he got himself into IC, under pressure from me, he didn't "improve" - he got worse...I'd say he tried to get each of the two counselors he had on "his" side, as personal allies...and during that process, I became "the enemy"...before he went to counselling, he was aware that he was doing me wrong....after he went to counselling, he came up with reasons to justify his actions and he turned against me....this kind of fits with Stephen Stosny's picture of abusive spouses...and I guess what I'm trying to say is that I got scared that he would have a breakdown, so I backed off...when he quit, I let him quit and didn't push him again....I gave him space, stopped snooping, made no demands, and slowly, things stabilized....but I was always aware that so-called recovery was not according to MB principles, so I half-expected him to have another affair....

...then the school thing happened....then I found out he had allowed himself another EA, and that did my head in....I didn't handle it very well, I don't think...so I think he just gave up and went for the affair, and I gave up...but we stayed living together because our kids had been through so much and they really needed to be back in their own home with both parents, even if it wasn't all perfect....

I have tried to talk to him on numerous occasions, but...

Quote
If he was making a huge effort to repair the damage, perhaps it could mend, but it looks like he is not.

IMO, he is not making any effort to repair the damage....he never has...and he doesn't seem the least bit interested in finding out how to do that....when I found out about the EA3, I gave him HNHN - he never even opened it...I've printed out MB stuff for him...he read one article...my BIL has tried to get him to read the Mars/Venus book by John Gray - no deal....I have tried other books....Love Languages, Trust Builders, Marriage Works....nothing....he flat out refuses to read anything...I have suggested friends (of his) that he talk to...no....I have suggested priests, counselors...no....not interested. I have told him his brother is worried about him and wants him to see a doctor. No. H has said consistently that he no longer loves me, so I take him at his word....H has his head very firmly stuck in the sand. I think he is living in great fear. I am aware that I am "letting" him live like this by not kicking him out, but like I have said before, I'm not 100% convinced that that is in the children's best interest right now....

Quote
I would like to hear your doubts, and questions. Perhaps you won't want to talk about these thing here.

I'll talk about it as best I can. I'm not averse to talking about it. Mostly, I feel like God is not there, although something in my heart tells me that isn't true. In fact, as I am sitting here meditating on the past, with regard to the school thing....how do I deal with what happened there and my part in what happened? Well, I know that during that time, I read the Scripture readings for the day every day, and I prayed every day....I decided that if I acted in accordance with the Gospel, then I had nothing to fear...I had to reflect on whether I had malice in my heart towards those people, and in everything, I had to decide whether my actions were charitable....I also was aware, am aware, that whatever I did or said I would have to answer for before God someday....if what I did damaged someone else, I'd have to be judged for what I did someday....so it came to me that I know I did this during that time, and I feel at peace with what happened. What happened turned out to be beneficial to all the children there, but what was best for my children was that they come home to be with me....so I have no regrets....

If only I could feel the same sense of peace over our marriage...but I don't ....I feel conflicted about it...that's why I need to go talk to this priest about certain things....

There is one effort which I think my H is making...he seems to be trying to be more accountable for himself....he calls in to tell me where he is and when he will be home....although sometimes his plans change....he still calls to say his plans have changed....

He is trying to be a good father, too....in that he is trying to spend "quality time" with both boys - especially trying to get OS active in sports, and picking up YS from school....before he was a WS, he was very involved with them....wanted to get home and spend time with them, attend their activities at school....when he was a WS, he spent his time on OW....now he seems more oriented towards them again, even if he is not interested in me....

The pain is odd - coming and going - since I exercised this week, it is bothering me again - maybe I have arthritis in my hip? I'm seeing the doctor again Friday....sounds like your leg problem was a nerve....getting old and frayed!!

Well, I hope you have a good time at the camp...

I came back to try to work up the courage to get counselling...that's still my goal....I'm reminding myself...-)

Thanks for listening...

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/18/07 10:50 PM
- Continuing where we left off - (which is easy with the shotgun approach, you just start anywhere.)

Because of the situation at work, I haven't been able to call and make an appt with the priest...that's what I need to do...that's my first step...because there are theological issues I have to sort out with him about our marriage and about the issues of repentance and forgiveness....

This is really interesting to me, and I wanted to ask a lot of questions, but I got the feeling I should not ask them. I won't, but I will let this comment stand.

Then I think I need to find a different kind of counselor and start trying to deal with putting myself back together inside, regaining my confidence and trying to learn some the skills that I am lacking in...one of the doctors in my new surgery is a licensed psychotherapist. I might approach him, but I wanted to get my physical symptoms diagnosed first, because I didn't want them to think that the physical pains I have been experiencing are psychosomatic, or that I am attention-seeking.

I have always thought of you as having above average people skills, and above average problems solving skills. It was a surprise to read the above quote about putting your self back to together.

Having said that - I know you can still function, and outwardly you are probably doing well, but for you to have said this speaks volumes to me about what you are feeling inside.

Knowing what I know about you (and realizing there is a lot I do not know)............ I realize this must have affected you more than I first thought. You have been hurt badly.

When the hurt is on the outside, it is easy for us to see, and know that help is needed. When it is on the inside, it is more difficult to gauge the extent of the damage. I always though of you as a very confident person too. Now I am struggling with what questions to ask. Or if I should even ask them.

(Background info)
I have really enjoyed my exchanges with others on MB. As I converse, and learn about them, I learn a lot about myself. It helps me to maintain improvement in my relationship with my W, and it helps with my self improvement. I tend to ask a lot of questions, but they can get personal in nature. That's why I said I don't know if I should ask more about your statement on confidence, and putting your life back together.

(Back to your regularly scheduled post.)
Physical symptoms can be a sign of emotional trauma. Our bodies and spirits are connected, and the body will react to a spirit in pain. My ulcers were a sign of my channeling my emotional stress inward, and not finding ways to deal with it. I don't consider that to be psychosomatic - it's more of a cause and effect kind of thing. I wasn't thinking of this when I first brought up the ulcers, but I read your post over again, and this connection came to me. Or, I should say possible connection.
I really hesitate now......... I don't really know anything about this, other than what I have been through. (SS thinks some more.) Of course, it probably wouldn't hurt to keep talking about it, and exploring ideas.

Soldiers returning from the war often have physical problems that have roots in the experiences they have been through. I would guess between the school troubles, and the things your H has done, yours would be as traumatic. This is not in jest, I think it could be part of the trouble. Please comment though - I am just kind of thinking as I type. I hope this comes through the way I intend. I am not trying to paint you in a bad light.

The other place I thought about going to try to get counseling was the women's shelter, where I might be able to find counseling with someone who understands the experiences of women who have experienced abuse...I expect they are very busy and probably have a lot more women who are in much worse shape than me...I don't know if they would have any room on their schedules.

I have the name of someone local I can recommend. He counsels some members of our congregation, and seems to do a very good job. I had to refer someone to him last night.
Of course, the distance could be a problem. Will you be visiting us any time soon?
( Said in jest, but only half so.)

You seem to have a difficult time knowing how strongly to pursue counseling. Maybe that's not the best way to say that. You seem to waiver in your resolve - some days you want to, and other says you seem not so sure. I wish I knew what your major concern is. I can think of quite a few, but I don't have enough data to comment. Again, please don't think my comments are a judgment. I am saying this so you can examine your feelings and tell me what you see there. I don't know if you would have looked at that on your own. I realize part of it is finding the right person. Are there other things too?
Are you OK so with this so far?

If you were sitting here, I would probably give you time to process, and comment before going on. I would probe a little more to see if you needed more time to think, or if we could go on.

This is the internet, so I'll go on. You can read, or not, as needed.

(more background)
I read what JL said to you, and I read your reply.

Remember that JL is a scientist. He studies all the possible choices, and then goes with the best one. If other things need to be tried, he is trained to choose the one that has the highest chance of success.

Applied to marriage -
If it's not working, then change it.
If it hurts, and you can't change it, get away from it.
If you don't feel you can get away from it, live with it.
If you choose to live with it, that's YOUR choice, so don't complain about it.

I believe JL cares deeply about you, but he doesn't want you to be in pain, and what he posted is in line with his training. I hope you could see the concern in his post to you. I know he tries to get people to look at all the choices. Sometimes we are prone to say "I could never........" He is good at asking "Why not?"
These are my thoughts on it - I may be a long way off what his real intent was, but I don't think so.

End of background, back to regular post.

So its a tough call. Maybe I am in my midlife crisis now - I just turned 50 (arrrgh!) and I appear to be in menopause - yikes! - everything just quit with no warning last Sept.

I turn 52 this Sept. My W is two years behind me. You will be just fine if you stay focused on the most important things, and continue to follow God's advice. Part of my stress reduction - Reconcile with, and adjust to.......... things you can't change.

(I should have teased you about it, but I get in these serious moods. What can I say?)

Have you done your vacation yet?


I had a dream that I was riding a bicycle and felt the tire going flat - I pulled in for a pitstop and the mechanic showed me that I worn the tread away completely, in fact, I was riding on the rim - no tire left at all - could God, and you, be trying to tell me something???-)


Yes, and Yes. Lets upgrade you from the bike to a jet plane or something. Maybe a cruise ship. You don't have to cook or do dishes on a cruise ship.

I think I'll post this, and do more later.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/18/07 10:55 PM
Hi believer -

Yeah, I thought it was a male/female thing, too, for a long time - I found the Mars/Venus books by John Gray a real eye-opener....one of the things I got from those was that I had to prepare my H for information or talks....so I do the "when you are ready, I need to talk to you about X" - and he is more receptive to dealing with practical problems if I approach him like that....

But we still have communication problems....

Here's an example from yesterday...

I come in from shopping in the afternoon and H and OS are relaxing around the table...they have mugs of tea on the table....I go into the kitchen with the groceries and start putting stuff away...I make myself a mug of tea...boil kettle, put teabag in mug, pour on boiling water, add milk, presto! H says, from the other room "there's tea in the pot there for you..." Now, there's a teapot on the kitchen counter. This teapot often sits there unused. H uses it from time to time. Tradition has it that when someone makes tea in a pot, and there is tea left in the pot, one puts a teacosy on it to keep the tea in the pot warm, and H uses the teacosy when he uses the pot. This teapot was not wearing a teacosy. It was not out of the ordinary to see it sitting there. But I assumed it was clean and not being used and that they had made their mugs of tea using the teabag in a mug method. So he calls out to me from the other room that there is "tea in the pot for you", like "you didn't have to make yourself a mug, I've already made some for you" - "Oh," I say "I didn't know". "Well, you didn't look, did you?!" (My hackles start to rise) I look in the teapot. The tea that was in there is all gone. There isn't any tea in the pot for me. "It's all gone," I say. "Oh, is it?" he says.

It's hard for me to know what to say here. It was one of those really small things that make you wonder what the game is....

I feel like I have tied myself in knots trying to learn "how to communicate" with him and it just doesn't work...it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Well, I gotta go lay my head on the pillow...school play tomorrow...

Take care, Believer - thanks very much for your comments - yes, your H does sound familiar to me....-)

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/18/07 11:08 PM
We posted at nearly the same time. There is another above yours that you may not have seen.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/21/07 08:31 AM
ss - I'm going to respond to some of your comments soon...

I've been reading neaksis' thread on how to spot child molesters - I have often wondered if my H was abused as a child....

I've been reading the links she posted about attachment disorder, and I think this applies to my H....a lot of the behaviour is consistent with my H's behaviour, and what I know about his childhood history.....

-H was subjected to time-schedule meeting of needs as a baby...his needs were not met when he cried....
-His mum told me he never cried at night...that she put him in his own room and shut the door....claims he never once woke her in the night....I don't believe this is possible for a newborn...(this breaks my heart thinking about it)
-His mum also told me she would put him in his pram and put him down at the bottom of the garden all afternoon, so that she couldn't hear him cry....
-His mum once said that her FIL told her she cared more about her dogs than she did her children (early signs that other family members noticed her neglect)
-His mum told me H didn't sit up by himself until he was 1 year old....when I asked if he was allowed to crawl on the floor, she said no - she kept him in his cot or his pram at all times....
-She also said he didn't speak until he was about 3
-H's mum's mother died when H was a small baby. I suspect that H's mum was severely depressed, as she was very dependent on her mum, her father having died when she was 12, and she was an only child (actually a surviving twin - her twin died at birth)
-H's mum was never physically affectionate...she kissed hello and goodbye, but there was no physical warmth...she did not hug. This was also noticeable in the way she related to my children...she did not want to hold them as babies...when I once asked her if she could feed OS his bottle, she had to give up...she became irritated with him and could not "soothe" or relate to him eye-to-eye...he would not settle in her arms....
-H's mum was extremely controlling...fixated on routine...obsessive with food....

-This is not unusual with British people of an older generation, so I am not saying she did not love him, in fact, I know for a fact that she did love him, and that he loved her....but the above examples are facts, and I cannot believe they did not have an impact on my H's development as an emotional human being...

I don't think my H was a victim of SA by his family...but it is possible that because of the neglect, he was a vulnerable child who was an easy target during the time he was in boarding school.....(also common in the UK)

When I discovered my H's EA(s)...one of the things he shouted at me once was...

"You can't keep telling me what I am doing wrong!!....That is bad parenting!" (!!!)

I was taken aback by this when it happened and my response to him then was "I am not your parent! You are not a 17-yr old boy!"

But what has become clear is that H has placed me in the role of parent, indeed has demanded from me that I be the "good parent" he never had....I feel I have got sucked into trying to fulfill that role for him...in fact, it is a role I am currently acting out, I know....

But it is a role which it is impossible to fulfill, and which will never be fulfilling for me or him....

The priest I saw last put it succinctly...he said "you are a grown woman and you are married to a 10-yr-old boy....of course you are unhappy...it is not possible for you to be happy and be married to a child..."

This "child" who lives inside my H has a lot of the behaviour in the description of attachment disorder....

Suppressed rage
Controlling....
(an example....trying to "help" by showing me how to do stuff....like peeling potatos and coring strawberries...I worked as a baker in a restaurant for five years..I KNOW the fastest way to core strawberries.....what is important to H is that I do it HIS way....the attention he pays to things being done HIS way in the house is constant and all-pervading)
Extremely charming to friends and outsiders
Severe difficulties in work relationships - works best alone
No physical affection (towards me, shows affection to his children)
-will hug me if asked. Does not initiate affection - never did, except at beginning of relationship - does not hug and kiss in bed (never did)
-rejects meeting of my emotional needs - responds to my need for comfort with hostility or aggression
Manipulative of counsellors
-one website states that "attachment therapy" takes place WITH the parent in the room, as with traditional therapy, the child with RAD manipulates the therapist...this is my experience with my H.....my H is calm and reasonable inside the therapy room IF he feels he can control the therapist, but he exploded into rage the minute he was out of earshot of the therapist. On two occasions, he exploded inside the therapy room, and therapy ended....since then, H has refused all therapy....will not consider it....
"Sabotages" positive interactions
Dominates a room when he is in it - "holds court"
Holds himself above others - has a superior, slightly sneering attitude (the children comment on this, don't like it), in other words, he is fully invested in being "right"


My H makes most sense to me if I regard him as a damaged child who is refusing to face the pain he suffered in childhood....however, I have failed to find a way to break down his walls and help him to heal.

Does this make sense?
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/21/07 09:33 PM
What you are saying does make sense. I just keep wondering what you can do with what you are learning.

Believer said it looks a lot like the male/female thing. It does, however, you have tried the normal work arounds for those kinds of things, and it doesn't help. What it looks like to me is a person who is determined to keep all his bagage, and not give any of it up.

The things you have related about his childhood are so sad. It makes one want to help. I would guess though, that after one tries, and is rebuffed over and over, it gets more difficult to continue to try.

Wanted to post thoughts about the cd-player incident but my mom called, and some cousins from out of state dropped by, and she requested I visit for a while.

I hope you feel well today. It sounds like you did not get flooded, and if so, I am glad.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/21/07 11:54 PM
Quote
What you are saying does make sense. I just keep wondering what you can do with what you are learning.

Yup. I am asking myself this question, too. Like BrambleRose said to Skinsgal - stop trying to diagnose him and concentrate on diagnosing yourself. I am still trying to "diagnose" him...I feel like I am abandoning him if I stop....there's something in me that still wants to help him, even though he is not giving me the affection I need....

Quote
Believer said it looks a lot like the male/female thing. It does, however, you have tried the normal work arounds for those kinds of things, and it doesn't help. What it looks like to me is a person who is determined to keep all his bagage, and not give any of it up.

I think there IS the male/female thing, and I think I could do better on that. But I could get pretty good at that, and he would still be determined to hang on to his baggage. I have played my part in allowing him to hang on to it.[/quote]

Quote
The things you have related about his childhood are so sad. It makes one want to help.

Yes, it does. I broke off my first engagement with H. But we got back together because I first contacted him, then he invited me to come visit him and meet his parents. It was when I met his parents that it hit me how deprived of love he was and how much he needed someone's love. I wanted to fill that need. That was what hooked me in - now I realize that can be "co-dependency" - the "rescuer syndrome" - but I think it is also that I was a compassionate person and I DID love him, as I thought he loved me.

Quote
I would guess though, that after one tries, and is rebuffed over and over, it gets more difficult to continue to try.

I still put my arm around H and steal a kiss on the top of his head sometimes. I don't expect anything back anymore. The RAD diagnosis helps explain the rebuffs, but that doesn't mean there is any hope for the relationship working the way a relationship should. And I am at the point where I don't feel like trying anymore.

Quote
Wanted to post thoughts about the cd-player incident but my mom called, and some cousins from out of state dropped by, and she requested I visit for a while.

I hope you feel well today. It sounds like you did not get flooded, and if so, I am glad.

Not to worry. I hope your camp went well. Thankfully, we didn't flood here, and I've had a good day with the boys. I'm also getting back to studying - got my books sorted out and organized, started reading systematically again, and have managed to clean up my desk. My friend is coming tomorrow to help me weed out my clothes closet. BIL also called today, so I had a long chat with him. He supports me in starting counselling for myself now....says he understands my fears about divorce and that its a good thing the boys are doing so well...understands why I have not wanted to cause them upheaval....there is no easy solution...says he and FIL are completely mystified by H's behaviour...cannot understand his reneging on his morals (which he is so public about)...cannot understand why he refuses to engage in any joint counselling with me...cannot see what I could have done better....FIL knows we are having problems but does not know the details...FIL disapproves of H going away on business trips for any longer than absolutely necessary...FIL feels helpless to do anything and also feels its not his place to tell H what to do, but is upset with him privately....

I'm going to get to some of the things you brought up, but I am still meditating on them.

I think today, I feel the talk with my BIL encourages me to take that step to call the counselling center. I have to get my focus off of H and back on to me...

I think I went off the idea of counselling for so long because I felt it didn't help US, which was what I really wanted. I also felt my counselor was inadequate, and that a lot of the techniquest they use are ineffective, and I don't want to go through more "useless" counselling. I want this time to be more productive. This time I will be more proactive about interviewing the counselor to try to find what I am looking for....

Yes, I am willing to talk about forgiveness and repentance. That is a big issue for me that I am feeling conflicted about. All viewpoints are welcome. The problem I am having is that I don't see any signs of repentance in my H. If my H is unrepentant, how can he get that he is forgiven? H's older woman friend has "poisoned the well" by telling him he is forgiven once and for all by Christ's death on the Cross, and that "God does not 'point the finger'....thereby casting me as "unforgiving" if I bring up the subject of his infidelity (which he has NEVER talked to me about and NEVER apologized for)....Her mantra to me was always "you MUST STOP 'pointing the finger' at him" (can you hear H yelling at me "you can't keep telling me what I'm doing wrong!"?). The thing is...I am NOT and never have been..a nag...I do NOT always tell H what he does wrong...this is a PROJECTION on his part...BUT I HAVE told H that what he does HURTS me...apparently that's not allowed...apparently me telling him that his lying and cheating hurt me constitutes 'pointing the finger'...so I "don't have the Holy Spirit", and I'm not showing him God's love...the last time I spoke to her 2 years ago, she remonstrated with me..."what does he see reflected back at him when he speaks to you...does he see love for him or love for yourself?" This after 3 D-DAYs!! She is an evangelical Christian and a former OW of his. So....yes, I know...confused...yes, no excuses....my fault for allowing it...my fault for accepting what I shouldn't have accepted....

But the theological issue is the 'pointing the finger' - I feel this is a barrier between us, built by her...and a gross misrepresentation of the Gospel....Scripture says "judge not, lest ye be judged by the same measure"...it does not say you are supposed to stand by passively and do and say nothing when a brother goes astray....Christ also said to the woman caught in adultery "Go AND SIN NO MORE...."..he did not say "GO and carry on with whatever you feel you need to make you happy regardless of what it does to your spouse and family..."

I'm interested in what others believe on this issue....emotionally I don't seem to be able to recover the love I once had for my H without him showing remorse for what he has done, and making the effort to change that comes with true repentance....and both those things require talking about it...at least him saying he is sorry, which hasn't happened, because I guess he feels he doesn't have to...and as a Catholic, I am stunned that he goes to Communion without having apologized to me for his adultery....he's probably (must have) gone to confession (Sacrament of Reconciliation) and feels he is "straight" with God, but he has made no effort to reconcile with me...this is what I need to work through with the priest....

There - that's given you something to chew on, ss -)..I'm sure you will have something that will help me work this thing through in my heart....

Gotta go now....all the best...

LIR
Posted By: believer Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/22/07 12:40 AM
Can't help you there. But my how Scripture gets twisted. My ex continue his affair for almost 4 years, still claiming to be a Christian, feeling he was forgiven (even while still in the midst of his affair), and was active as a chaplain in different groups.

I just don't get it.
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/23/07 06:17 AM
Yup. I guess it's the attitude of "do as I say, not as I do".....I don't get it either....one morality they have in public, but they do the opposite in private. The Scripture question seems to relate to something I read ForeverHers posted...that some evangelical Christians believe that Christ's death bought forgiveness for all sin once and for all, so we are all already forgiven no matter what we do....so the WS with this belief twists the teaching, ignores Christ's message of the need for repentance and goes on sinning, but feeling an entitlement to forgiveness as he sins....like he's taken out a license to sin..."I'm forgiven already....so you can't say anything to me, so there!" Sheesh!

I remember you posting about your ex, Believer. You sound MUCH happier now.

I think I am in BS fog, as described by Cherished.

I came back here not to elicit sympathy from anyone, but to try to break out of the isolation and push myself to get myself into IC....otherwise it would be legitimate to say I'm just complaining about something I refuse to do anything about.....

Just found loads of pornography cookies on our IMAC (shared computer in what is now room where H sleeps) - H has his own Macbook now, so am not sure whether this is OS or H accessing porn....also websites like "frenchsinglesonline" - dating sites. I know for a fact that H started looking at porn from the time we got the IMAC (our first computer) (Feb 2001) - H's first EA came to light June 2001. H's 2nd EA was with a French girl. H's 3rd EA (later PA) was with a German woman.

I know pornography is endemic today - I don't want my sons viewing this stuff...I also don't want them "learning" that they are "entitled" to internet "privacy" and "secrecy"....I've got to find some way to deal with this....moving that computer into the dining room is not really an option...our house is so small that there is literally nowhere to put it except where it is now...

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/24/07 12:09 AM
I know pornography is endemic today - I don't want my sons viewing this stuff...I also don't want them "learning" that they are "entitled" to internet "privacy" and "secrecy"....I've got to find some way to deal with this....moving that computer into the dining room is not really an option...our house is so small that there is literally nowhere to put it except where it is now...

BTW, the bold thing is these brackets [] with a b in them and the same brackets with /b inside to stop. You don't need to type the whole word "bold." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If your H does not still use the computer in question, you can password it to control access, or you can install some parental control software. I have not used any of that software personally, but reports are that it works quite well. I am sure you could find reviews on the web.

If your H does use it still, and you want to have lots of fun, you can still password it. Fireworks are so lovely at some times of the year, and add to many celebrations. If you time it right, the boys may get a lot out of it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'm also getting back to studying - got my books sorted out and organized, started reading systematically again, and have managed to clean up my desk.

Is the bible one of the things you are reading regularly?
I highly recommend it.

Highly. <grin>

I don't know how you ladies get so much done, I am behind all the time.
SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/25/07 12:51 PM
I have been reading up on the OS of the computer - it is possible to lock the computer with a password, set up individual accounts without administrator controls and set parental controls on those accounts which only allow that account holder to access previously vetted websites - in other words, no indiscriminate browsing...so that's what I'm doing....when that's done, I will delete all the cookies off the computer, then go back and check later...if there are porn cookies on the computer, I will know they belong to H....

Is the bible one of the things you are reading regularly?
I highly recommend it.

Highly. <grin>


Yes, ss - I am still reading...almost every day, although some days, I end up letting something get in the way....I am using a monthly magazine that I subscribe to, which helps enormously to keep me on track...

Have had busy days here...with YS's last days in primary school...very rewarding to go through all the leaving ceremonies, but sad, too....I couldn't be happier with YS primary school...they have done a beautiful job with all the kids in his year group...today is his last day and I have to go get him in an hour, so I can't post any more today....

I don't know how you ladies get so much done, I am behind all the time.

LOL! You're no slouch in the 'getting things done' department, IMHO! BTW, there's a great program called Getting Things Done...or GTD for short...book and website....I'm working on those principles, but can't say I am doing very well....still...I'm working on it....

Gotta go...

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/26/07 10:01 PM

Quote:
Would you like to talk more about the details?



Do you mean do I want to talk more about the details, or about the Devil? Scared of him and wish he would let go of my H.


Many don't believe in God, or in the Devil. Both are real. I wish he would let go of your H too, because there is great danger there. We talk about it as if we can help him, but he needs to want help. The war between good and evil that is going on now (and much of it can't be seen with our natural eyes) makes most of the previous battles pale in comparison. Those who choose God will always be on the wining side - always. It is true that Jesus died in the battle long ago, but he looks to be in a pretty good position at this point in time........... as are those who follow him.


About that "only uses the information he has on you to help, never to harm..." It's good to remember this. Do you think that we should aspire to be the same? I have a lot of information on my H, and I really don't want to hurt him, but I have felt forced to expose some of his behaviour in order to protect myself.

Your need to protect yourself overrules any of his desires. I hope you will always protect yourself.

There are other concerns that I have. I always worry that those who will participate in A's might misuse their proximity with the church to abuse trust, and give a bad name to the good that is being done. I don't have any idea if he met these people professionally. If he did, the church might have an interest to be protected too. Of course, I know no details.

ON the whole I believe we should try to do the same. God has an advantage in that he knows all the variables, while our vision is limited. It is always good to seek him in prayer and have him ratify our decisions. It becomes second nature after time, and one can avoid many mistakes.

I think this is what has harmed my H's feelings for me...the knowledge that I have gone to a solicitor and turned over evidence that is irrefutable proof of his transgressions - material that can really hurt him. I think he thinks that I wanted to hurt him. I didn't. I was afraid of what he would do and I needed to protect myself legally.

I think you did the right thing. Notice that those who do things wrong are often more worried about getting caught, or having their deeds known, than in making things right. You can always tell when someone's heart is right, because they become more worried about setting things right, and making restitution than any other consideration.

I needed him to know that he wouldn't be able to get away with hurting ME. So when I told him that he could sue me for divorce if we slept apart for two years, because I really don't want to do something that will damage his reputation, I think that is why he came home and hugged me. He was relieved to know that I would not do this to him. So I have to keep my word to prove to him that I mean it. Kinda got myself into it, didn't I? Sounds crazy, but I'm trying to be merciful. I also what him to have what he really wants, and if he wants a divorce he can have one.

Someone who makes a mistake one time, and then repents of it the rest of their life probably deserves a little protection. Someone who keeps repeating the same mistake and shows no remorse .......... well, I worry. There is nothing to keep him from getting more and more bold, and I hope no innocent young girl gets hurt.

I do understand your feelings - and again, I don't know all of the facts. One other thing to consider is that when people are exposed to the consequences of their actions, it often encourages them to change for the better.

I have enjoyed reading the accounts of your boys and their school experiences. We have four sons, and four daughters. I have spend most of my adult life working in the "Boy Scout's of America." I was blessed to be able to spend time with my own sons as part of the experience. Helping boys has been very rewarding for me, and I often am visited by some of those who were in my scout troop more than 20 years ago. I am still associated with the Boy Scouts, and in fact we have three day trip next week. In the early days, I wasn't very good at helping them. It is much easier to see now which boys need extra attention, and it is also easier to know what they need. The most difficult thing is finding the time to give personal attention, and at the same time keeping the program going for all the other boys. Growing up can be so difficult, It is good that you watch out for them.

Were the closing ceremonies for your YS rewarding, and entertaining? Is he happy to be moving on, or does he wish he could stay another year?

Our twins wanted to stay, but it's hard to stall growing up. They are happy now, and doing well in what you and I may have called "Jr High."

So you see, last year, my older son had to go through his particular selection process, and this year, it was my younger son's turn. Both of them have succeeded in their goals and gained places in good schools.

Would they have achieved this if I had been embroiled in a plan B these last 2 years? I don't think so. I admit that my marriage is a mess, but I don't think I could have done any better.


I admire your courage, and your care and concern for your boys. I am wondering if you still wonder if plan B may have made a difference for your marriage?

My belief is that we should always think about things, pray about them, and come to a decision based on all the facts we have available to us. Then, take the decision to God in prayer and see what he thinks. Most of the time, he ratifies it, but sometimes he knows things we do not know, an he inspires us in another direction. Many people go through this process without really realizing it. I would guess you are getting help. Your story about forgiveness washing over you like water is a good example of the way he helps us.

I hope you don't mind me touching on all these things. I hope it feels helpful.

On a different note, I have talked to someone else, someone I know who is a psychiatrist. I started talking to her about seeking counseling for myself ...............................I think talking to her helped me feel more ready to start IC - I realized that I need someone to talk to...I AM very lonely, even though I have some very good friends. I just have this feeling that it is not enough. And I'm scared that I can't relate on an intimate level anymore. I'm too scared of being vulnerable, and have become used to being out on my own, so to speak. I think I have to deal with that before it goes any further.

When I read this, I felt like asking you a lot more questions. Maybe I should, or maybe I should let you rest.

You share a lot here, but you hold some back. I suppose this is good, the internet being what it is. I remember when I first started posting to you........... you asked me why I wanted to write to you. It made me laugh, though I didn't tell you. We do need to be careful, and there are many of dangers in the world. I think many of us long for a better world where those dangers don't exist.

I had a lady tell me a few years ago that she felt like she could talk to me........ "Because you are safe." (This is local, not online.) She didn't feel I was a danger to her. I hope that is true, I believe it is.

As far as loneliness -
The bible says "It is not good that the man should be alone." Probably that applies to both sexes. I think you feel that. Do you think so?

There are many ways to cope with these difficult parts of life. One of the best ways is to spend time helping others. You know that helping your boys is rewarding. Jesus said in Matthew, chapter 10: 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

I would bet you are involved in helping others? It is one of the very best ways to find ourselves.

Now -

You had asked how I learned to get some of the stress out of my life. This will almost sound like the opposite of what I just said, but it all fits together.

Take some time every day for yourself.

I used to be very task oriented. Set a goal for how much you will do in a day, and get it all done. Some days it took until late at night, but it got done. I would work from early morning on Saturday until late at night trying to get the yard looking better. After the doctor had his talk with me, I took a good look at what I was doing.

Now, I quit at 5 PM on Saturday.

I shower, and have an early dinner. IN the evening, I read, spend time with the kids, and prepare for the things I will do on Sunday. In short, I relax. If the work is not done, that's too bad. I have noticed it will still be there the next weekend waiting, it doesn't run off and get lost. W and I do dates most Friday evenings. We sometimes sleep in on Saturday and there is a lot of pillow talk.

When quitting time comes at work, I go home. We eat dinner as a family, we talk, and we laugh. We gather at bed time, and we read the bible together, and discuss it. We have family prayer every night, and most mornings. The world goes on and on, but we slowed things down a little bit inside our home.

Now, we have normal problems, and it doesn't always work out, but it's a lot better than it was. It requires a lot of faith in God. I used to try and make every thing work, now I do what is prudent, and trust the rest to God.

- LOL, I was sure I could get to the CD player today, and I haven't even touched on repentance, and forgiveness. LIR, I hope these discussions are useful to you.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/27/07 07:19 AM
Believe me, ss, your comments are very helpful...I am up early before anyone else, checking here, doing my Scripture readings, getting some studying (reading) in for my degree course before anyone else wakes up......

I'll go back and reply, but just in general, yes, I needed advice on how to get my head around prayer, and the "ratification" process you are talking about....I need to pray....this is the whole process which needs to become part of my life....I think my confusion and hanging on to the R with H is because I am not sure what God wants for me and H - I don't make a decision to leave H because I'm not sure that's the action God really wants me to take right now....and I am aware that it is not just me and H - it is the boys -

I hold the belief that ultimately, after God, I am accountable to my children for everything I do in my life....I don't want to do something in secret that I would be ashamed for my children to find out....I know from my own experience how devastating it is for children to find out the secrets that their parents have kept thinking it wasn't any of their children's business...everything you do in your life has an impact on your children, and your children grow up to be adults...when they are adults, they will want to know "why"...you WILL have to answer...you can choose not to and leave them in the dark, that doesn't mean they won't find out....I also feel that I have a responsibility to my kids....if I have done something wrong, or something that has hurt them, I have a responsibility to be here so they can throw mud at me someday....in other words, I will be here to answer for the decisions I have taken...if I decide that divorce is what is best for all of us, I don't expect them to be happy about it...they will have a lot to say about it someday....I will have to answer to them for what I decide to do....

Just to let you know that I have set up the computer in question with the accounts that now have parental controls on them - OS was not happy about it, but he accepted it and said I didn't have to tell him why...he knew....he is unhappy about not being able to surf the net freely, but I told him he can do that on my laptop when he is downstairs in the family room....any websites he wants to put on his area on the upstairs computer, I am happy to do for him....

I have also made an appt to talk to one of our parish priests on Monday at 10AM....I need to expose H to our church....especially when he is visiting sites like "www.datingforparents.com" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Will be back later....

Thank you so much for sharing these thoughts with me....

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/27/07 09:12 PM
I had a post all done and lost it, but I'm going to do it again, because I think it's important.

I believe it is very important. I get a lot of information from the things you write. It goes round in my head, and hopefully it comes out from time to time as useful observations.

Here I am again - it's morning and I have a busy day ahead - it was a busy school run morning, with YS going to an induction day at his new school...I bought a family ticket to the event this afternoon/evening for all new families...H is working all day and says he can't go...I think I will go anyway...

I hope you did go. I can't remember you commenting on it though. My mother has diabetes, and she doesn't feel well enough to attend family events sometimes. My father always goes. He is retired, and he shows us how important we are by showing up to every thing. He is as dependable as the atomic clock. I didn't know how important it was, but after watching him, I think I am beginning to understand. People say it's OK when we miss, but they feel the love when we do attend. I was happy that you said you would go anyway.
It occurs to me that if you didn't end up going, you might feel bad about what I have said, but it's supposed to be encouraging - so figure out how to spin it that way no matter what you did. <grin>

On reflection, I have been thinking that the incident with the CD players is an example of "crazy-making" - it sure made me feel like I was going crazy, and I got very emotionally upset. I still can't figure out whether it was a misunderstanding or whether it was a set up on his part to get me into a fight. JL, on another thread, said to me that I am punishing him by refusing to engage with him, and that I didn't have any business complaining as I have exactly the kind of marriage I want. This kind of thing is exactly why I refuse to engage anymore. With the best will in the world, I end up snarled up in something I don't understand and a serious breakdown in communication and good will. But I can't see myself staying with this forever.

I hate to admit it, but I was JUST LIKE HIM for a much of our early married life. I didn't have a clue I was doing it. Some part of me must have known - but until it was pointed out to me, I would not recognize it. It became much easier after we got Harley's "Love busters" book. He explained things so well that if I started it up, my W could easily remind me about what I had read, and what it meant. I still BEGIN it sometimes (old habits are hard to break,) but these days I catch myself. I always tell her when I figure it out, and I apologize. She laughs.

I do not believe he will see it, or change it unless he has a reason to do so. I knew something was lacking in our relationship, and I wanted to fix it, so I started looking for solutions. Your H has said that he knows things are tough, but that it must go on as it is. That is not very hopeful. I don't know what to tell you to do to help him. My W just tuned me out. I knew she was doing it, and that bothered me even more. Your H can feel it too, and I would guess he may try even harder to drive you crazy when that happens. It destroys the trust that should exist between H and W. A big downside, is that when he really does have a valid point, you may have already tuned him out, and might not be listening. Also, you may have valid reasons to tune him out most of the time, and he doesn't get why, so he gets worse. It's a cycle that makes the relationship worse, and worse, not better and better. I don't believe in our case that one of us could have fixed it working alone. When we discussed it, both of us realized what was going on, and we both tried to make it right.

I have seen a lot of people on MB who created many of the problems in their marriage, and would do nothing to fix them until their spouse had an affair. That was their wake up call. One of the reasons they were willing to work on the marriage, is that they KNEW they caused part of the problem.

There is no way you can change what you are doing to make your H happy. His view is warped, and he feels entitled to do whatever he wants because he isn't happy with his life and family as they are. My belief is that you didn't really need a wake up call, that your behavior was in the normal range, that you were not causing problems, and that he drifted off by himself.

Knowing how I was, and knowing that I was always justified in my own mind, I doubt he is any different. He feels you are in the wrong, and that it is his duty to set you right. He sees himself as failing in his role as husband, and father if he does not. I bet he almost never does it in front of other adults, because the arguments he has won't stand scrutiny, and as I said, some part of him knows that, but he walls it off, and ignores it as I did.

It may be a DJ on my part to say these things about him, as I am basing it on what was going on in my head. However, I it seems he is very similar to me, so I am telling you my thoughts on it.

To finish off that incident, later in the day I went into H's workroom (knocked first) and said "I'm sorry about this morning. When I got to the dump I found out there were TWO CD players in the car." I waited. "Oh," was all H said. "I was confused because I thought there was only one CD player in the car and I had thought you wanted that one thrown away. I didn't realize that you were talking about the car stereo. When I was trying to talk to you, I was only trying to clarify what you wanted because I was confused by what you were saying." H didn't reply. So I left it at that.

He didn't say anything about it - and that fits too.

My guess is that he couldn't even remember most of what went on before. See, you care, you want to make things right, you want him to be happy, and love you. I bet he viewed your coming to him as an apology of sorts, and thought it was natural because whatever happened (even if he couldn't remember it) it was your fault, and he was right, and you were wrong. I suspect he didn't comment because he couldn't remember the conversation, and in commenting he may have looked bad, or shown his mistake.

The way he sees it, he corrects you because it's his job to do it. Your are nearly always wrong, and he has to take time out from his busy schedule to help you out. It sounds so terrible while I am typing this. I hate to look at myself, but that's how I was. I didn't see my W as my partner, but I saw her as inferior, and I KNEW it was my job to correct her.

I think we have more of a partnership now, and less of a problem. BTW, he has no right to look at things that way, but many of us did, and do. I am sorry it takes us so long to get it.

Maybe I should have asked him directly whether he knew there were 2 CD players in the car, but I thought he would take that as confrontational and interrogating, and I didn't think he would respond well.

You know him well, and all you say confirms to me what his mind set is. I also believe he would have gotten angry.

Maybe I shouldn't have apologized to him, but I feel it is important to me that I try to make the space for reconciliation and he can respond as he wishes. In this case he didn't apologize for himself, or explain himself or make any further comment on the matter. He accepted what I said and did not offer any further comment or response. For me, it is important to me that I make the effort so that I remain a person who is able to try to communicate.

It is important to make the effort. I hope I don't discourage you from that by what I am saying. My W was distant, and I didn't understand why. She was just protecting herself from pain. I will be forever thankful that she stayed with me. She told me that she had prayed more than once to know if she should leave, but the answer was always that she should stay. Sometimes it brings me to tears to think about it.

Bullies are people who tear others down, because somehow it makes them feel better about themselves.

I wonder what he would do if you made a sign of that, and framed it - then when he goes off on you, you handed it to him.

On another note, these last two weeks, I have been "being there" for my friend who had a breakdown two years ago and has now been diagnosed as bipolar. Thankfully she has stabilized. Last week, my H came home from a funeral and said he had met a couple, the wife suffering from bad Post Natal Depression. He had taken their phone number and he urged me to call the wife, as he said we had a lot in common and he thought it might be helpful for her to talk to me. I said to my H that what I would say to her was that PND was a finite condition but needs careful management, and that I would put her in touch with the PND Association, which was what was most helpful to me. I went ahead and called this lady, who had a long chat with me. I hope I was helpful to her.

On one level, he feels it is his job to correct you. On another, he respects you, and even brags to others about how good you are at some things. This, from personal experience.

But to me this is noteworthy because I think my H MUST feel that I am mentally healthy enough to offer support to this lady, someone I don't even know. He also notes how I support my best friend, who has been quite seriously ill. So how come I am mentally healthy enough, in his eyes, to offer support to these people, but when it comes to relating to HIM, I am nuts?
As you already know, you are not nuts. He has to respect you on some level, after all he married you, and he lives with you. He has to find good about you, or he couldn't stay. He has walled off these two views, and calls them up as needed. There is no conflict in his mind (most of the time.) My W made some of the same comments to me over a period of time. Some of it finally started making sense to me.

I think the fact that I am "talking" again means I am ready for IC. But I don't want my IC to be a litany week after week of the crazy-making incidents...

Sometimes, with my H, I feel like I am dealing with two different people.


He really believes he is right. I keep hoping something will happen that forces him to see himself for what he is.

Oh wad some power the gifte gie us

To see oursels as others see us!

It wad frae monie a blunder free us,

An' foolish notion.

- Robert Burns,


In many way he is so gifted. You would not have wanted to be with him if he had no redeeming qualities. May God stretch forth his hand to bring him back, and may you know how to best help.

Prayer is a very interesting topic indeed. If I ever get caught up on the past topics, maybe I can discuss current ones in real time. (ss smiles)

When we leave this life, there is very little we can take with us. The memories we leave our children, the things we do for others, the friends we make. We may not by known by, or make a difference to most of the people in the world, but in our own circle of influence, we do make a huge difference. YOU make a difference, don't ever think you don't matter.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/31/07 09:28 AM
Well, I was just going to settle down and reply to your long post, but...I can hear the troops getting up downstairs...YS small feet have just stumbled into the bathroom and now he's downstairs alone...so...I'll have to come back later this evening....

Thank you for your reflections...I'll just quickly say that I found all of it helpful....especially the stuff on H feeling superior to me....I think you really hit the nail on the head there...that he feels its part of his role and responsiblity to correct me (he has always called it 'being helpful')....he doesn't see it as controlling, and it is incessant...we used to enjoy doing things together, but once we set up house together, and especially after we had children, him taking charge and telling everyone else, instructing everyone else in how things should be done, down to the minutiae of daily life has become all that he is....at least that aspect of him overwhelms everything else, in my view....I can see what you are saying, ss.....and I need to get LoveBusters ASAP....

Yes, I did go to YS school event....H could not go, and OS was happy to stay home, although I checked on him.....YS had a whale of a time, and I got to spend time with and touch base with a lot of other parents that I know and some I haven't seen for a long time....it was very good...I enjoyed myself, and it was amazing watching YS do the climbing wall and then abseil down as fearless as James Bond.....!

To update briefly, I had an appointment with the priest yesterday....this priest is a visiting priest, much loved in our parish, he comes every year from another country for two months or so....he came to our house for dinner 3 years ago and he is the one I went to when I first found out about OW1 six years ago....I cried a lot trying to tell him what has happened to us and he listened carefully...he said that he knew there was something wrong for the last three years...he said he has seen my H in the post office several times and wanted to say hi, but my H has not even seen him, he looks so unhappy and preoccupied....he said my H came into the church last week (my H's birthday day) while he was saying Mass and said some prayers...he spoke to him afterwards and he invited himself to dinner at our house....he said he could tell that my H is very troubled and also that YS teacher and Headmaster had spoken to him about YS - they are concerned that nothing happen to derail YS progress in school, as he is...special..he has a lot going for him...so that's why when he saw my H, he took the opportunity to say that he wanted to come over and see us....he was glad that I had come to him to tell him about our problems because it helped give him a better picture of what is going on...he said that what he would do is try to get H to come talk to him privately...he would not let H know that I had come to talk to him, but he wants to talk with him alone...he wants to open this conversation with my H before he comes to dinner with us...then he wants to come visit with us in our home....

I felt a little better after talking to him....I know he means well...I also got the feeling that without my knowing it, the parish has had its eye on our family....that they are concerned and are watching us...probably trying to figure out what they can do to help.....so we will see what happens.....

Have to go check on YS now...be back later....

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/01/07 08:25 PM
I hope to post a little more today before I leave work for home. Depends on how much I can get done.

I'll be away at a camp for boys the next three days.
May I live to tell about it. <grin>

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/01/07 11:44 PM
Later Edit -
Instead of adding to this, I think I will edit for clarity. If you have already read it, maybe another pass would help. I did it kind of fast, and didn't take time to proof it well.

Yes, I am willing to talk about forgiveness and repentance. That is a big issue for me that I am feeling conflicted about.

I sit here thinking..........

I would guess you are conflicted because you want to forgive him, and you don't feel he deserves it, and you don't know if you CAN forgive him. I kind of think you have forgiven in many ways, but you can't come to terms with loving him, and trusting him.

It may be good to talk about this as two different things.
There is the ability to Forgive, and there is the ability to have romantic love for someone.

(later edit - the dictionary I copied this from uses symbols that don't import well.)
for·give (f…r-g¹v“, fôr-) v. for·gave (-g³v“), for·giv·en (-g¹v“…n), for·giv·ing, for·gives. --tr. 1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon. 2. To renounce anger or resentment against. 3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example). --intr. To accord forgiveness. [Middle English forgiven, from Old English forgiefan. See ghabh- below.] --for·giv“a·ble adj. --for·giv“a·bly adv. --for·giv“er n.

If you absolve someone from a debt, it doesn't mean you loan them more money. If you pardon an offense, it doesn't mean you put yourself in a position to be offended in the same manner, by the same person all over again.

Forgiveness is for us, not for the relief of the person who has committed an offense, though if they are repentant it does give them some measure of relief. It they are not repentant, they (usually) could care less if they are forgiven or not. Often they object to forgiveness, because they don't believe they committed a wrong in the first place.

From Matthew Chapter 6-
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Forgiveness is for you - it cleanses your soul, and it makes it possible for you to be right with God. Without if, you are in bondage to feelings that won't let you keep this commandment:
Matt: 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

which BTW comes just after this in Matt 5
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye alove them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

I have quoted the whole thing, though I am very afraid you will think I am telling you to repent. (I am not.) Perhaps you have some changing yet to do, but I think you have completed most of your journey. Lets Explore why I say this.

You have shown you wish him no harm. Things you could have used against him, you have remained silent on, or kept hidden. We discussed protection of the church, and others - these are things that always need to be taken into account, and acted upon if others need protection. It looks like you have already turned the other cheek. I am not privy to private conversations the two of you have, and you could be giving him he11 and not telling us about it, but I doubt it.

Now, there is forgiveness, and then there is Love.
If I read the scriptures right, there is love, and there is LOVE too.

We are commanded to love our enemies. It is clear Jesus loved all men, and wanted to bring all men to salvation. It is also clear that straight is the gate, and narrow the way, and few there be that find it. (Paraphrasing)
He loves us, but he will only let those in who qualify. I think we have to be the same as far as romantic love, and trust. Marriage is a sacred bond. You know it is not the same now (for you) as it once was. I may go out on a limb with part of this now. I believe you know that there could be a lot more to it than what you were getting even before his EA's and PA. It's a sacred partnership, and the sacred part no longer exists, nor does the partnership part in many ways. I feel as though you are trying to hang on tight to something that is barely there. That's difficult to do.

Speaking of Love, and LOVE -
From John Chapter 19-
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

You can't love someone who you can't trust. I won't take time to look up the quotes, but I got this concept from MB over the years.
We know Jesus loves Peter, and the other of the 12, but it makes a special note about his love for John. Some kind of a greater bond existed.

We are asked to love even our enemies. It doesn't tell us to trust them though. We are instructed to turn the other cheek, a reference to avoid living an "eye for an eye." We are not instructed to go out of our way to let our selves be subjected to evil, and it's influence. IN fact, we are warned to stay away from it.

So what does that mean for you and your relationship to your H? I think your difficulty lies in trying to reconcile forgiveness of your husband, and getting back to a loving, trusting relationship. I don't think you can have the latter until he repents, though you can still forgive him, and not desire evil to come upon him.
I suppose I am saying that you may have come as far as you can come, and it may require something from him for more progress to be made.

Jesus must have trusted John to have given his mother into his care. I believe there was a lot more there than the love we are supposed to have for our enemies. This is the type or example of the love that should exist in a marriage, and it can't exist while one of the partnership is untrustworthy.

I see my time is up. I'll see you again upon my return. May God be in your heart, so that you can understand what is needed, and how to best accomplish it.

(Later edit)
I don't have time to discuss prayer in depth. I do want to say that you can get answers to prayer.

For me, it comes most often as a feeling, or whisper to my soul, or my spirit.

He expects us to gather information, and make informed decisions.
I make decisions, and I ask HIM if I should go ahead. If he wishes me to proceed, the loving, positive, warm feeling comes. If I need to think on it more, I get a bump of warmth, but also a feeling of doubt. If I am totally wrong, I get lots of doubt, and the conduit to heaven feels clogged, and I am left to wonder.

Sometimes there is no way for me, with limited information to know what to do. IN these cases, I find he will put thoughts and ideas into my head, and give me further direction on how to proceed. This feels like pure knowledge coming as a new thought, or idea.

I want you to know that he is there. I promise you that he is. I know he loves you, and wants you to have help. If he delays his answers to you, it is because that is what is best. He never makes mistakes. His timetable, is not always our timetable. Sometimes he doesn't do it our way, or give us what we want, because he gives us what is best, or most needed.

You should have these same positive, warm feelings as you read this - if it is true, because the Holy Ghost is charged with bearing witness of the truth, and God wants you to have all the help you can get. He will not do anything for me that he will not do for you. If these feelings come strong enough (as on the day of pentecost) they are described as a flaming fire, or a rushing wind. It is easy to understand once you have felt it, but hard to describe with words.

I testify that God is real, and that he will help you as long as you continue to call upon him, and live worthy of his blessings.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/03/07 09:03 AM
Please know that your last sentence is ringing in my ears....I heard the power of your conviction in those words..."I testify..."....thank you for their sustaining grace...

I am finding myself very short on time and I can't write back to you just yet in depth on the things you have taken up but I want you to know that it has all made sense and helped me to start sorting out the forgiveness/repentance quandary I am struggling with.....

Just to say that today I am called into the hospital to have a scan on my veins (which I have been waiting for for months), then keeping a lunch date which H accepted from one of his work associates, then I have one of my oldest friends (known her since junior high, since I was 12, arriving this evening with her 15-yr old daughter to stay the weekend, visiting my town - staying in a B&B, but I will be busy with her until Monday eve.)--I am SOO looking forward to spending time with her....

Then, yesterday H decided he WOULD like to take that holiday in France for a week, which he stresses is NOT supposed to be stressful....so we are leaving on Wed the 8th, and coming back on the following Wed....when we arrive back, my other friend will be here in my town with her H who is on a work course...she will be here until the 19th and wanted to spend time with me....I also really want to spend time with her while her H is busy working....hoping we can spend it working on my vegetable patch...she has volunteered....I have helped her and her H recover their marriage using MB principles...he had 2 affairs several years ago during a mid-life crisis and when she found out, she turned to me...I helped her through that time, and her H acknowledges my part in saving their marriage...they have turned their marriage around and are well into recovery and enjoying their new life together....her H is one of my H's oldest friends (has known him since childhood)....my H knows about her H (and at the time told him he had to 'return to God'!), and my H knows her H knows about us...I think he will be very uncomfortable and is trying to avoid seeing them because of his shame....I am insisting we come back on Wed so I can see her...I leave H up to God....anyway, that will be the weekend of the 16th...19th, to see my friend.....

Then...we have planned a trip to see H's dad and brother between 21st and 27th Aug....so I am starting to feel stressed....I would like to have a holiday, but being with H on holiday could be very stressful....also, I have a lot to do....I have to finish writing 2 sets of concert notes (for which I am paid) that are due end of next week....means I have to get one set done today (before and after scan and lunch) and arrival of friend this eve...arrgh! Will have to work late at night...which is exhausting....

If I don't get second set of notes finished by Wed, I can take all my books and my laptop and finish them while we are on holiday....yes, I know, taking work with me while I am on holiday...

And then there is my MA course that I'm supposed to be studying for....thank God I took a temporary withdrawal from study....but I really WANTED to be able to get a substantial amount of work on my course done before I go back to work on 5th Sept....

YS starts school on 5th Sept...have lost track of when OS starts back....so I still have some shopping to do for them...school clothes and shoes, all of which have to be labelled....will have to do that when we get back from visiting FIL and BIL....

Intend to fill in FIL while I am there....

And then there was calling the counselling service....

And then there was the priest in our church wanting to see H, and to come visit with us....

I am starting to see these pockets of days appear in the month of August, when we will be home....don't know how I am going to get so many things done....

Also....have started to pray and decided to keep a "prayer diary"...because I "forget" the insights I have received in prayer...I think keeping a prayer diary will help me to concentrate....

Today....the peace came with the thought that what I need to do is restore my own faith instead of depending on my H's....that came from the thought that I had married H as a way of trying to avoid the pain of infidelity - the pain I had suffered as a child as a result of my father's infidelity - I was attracted to a man I thought had an integrity my father lacked....I admired my H for what appeared to be his strong faith...which I thought would mean he was committed to fidelity....as it turns out, my H has a lot of problems which prevent him living up to what he himself holds up as an ideal....my father, incidentally, never believed my H was "marriage-material"...takes one to know one....anyway...I sound like I am rambling here...but there is a logic here.....having been powerfully attracted to my H, and married him as a way of trying to escape pain, and relying on my H's faith for a long time...I find myself "cast out", as it were....of that fantasy...and struggling to recover my own faith....

Actually, I never lost my own faith...I felt my faith challenged by my H and by his older woman friend...

In prayer this morning....I was reminded that He came to me long before I met H, and that I said yes to Him long before I met H...that I said yes to H because I said yes to marriage with a full heart, and I have tried to continue to say yes to what marriage should be....that I have a right to say no to what my H wants which I feel is immoral....in fact, that I SHOULD stand firm against what I feel is immoral....saying yes to God means saying no to the Devil, in other words....

So I feel better....

At some point I will get back and go over your detailed examination of forgiveness/repentance....

It has helped me see that I have actually "turned the other cheek" - many times...by choosing not to retaliate or take steps that would harm him....

It helps that you explained just how forgiveness is for you....because I have felt this battle going on inside me....the death of the love I had for him and what that could be replaced with....bitterness, vengefulness, anger which eats you alive....forgiveness inhabits the place where these feelings could take root and live forever in your heart, taking over your soul....I still have to admit that I harbour a desire to see H punished....maybe that's part of what Harley talks about....the BS needing to see that the WS makes amends for what he/she has done....to be really honest, I want my H to suffer for what he has put me through and for what he has inflicted on our children.....I want him to suffer through the refiner's fire...because at the bottom of it all, I don't want my H to go to ******....I don't want him to be cast "into the pit" at Judgement Day.....I don't DO anything to punish him myself....and I try to keep my eyes on myself with regard to Judgement Day, knowing I will account only for myself on that day.....but I still pray for H for this reason.....

If I am really honest, I can't say that I want H to suffer *only* for his own good....maybe I just want to see him suffer....I want him to know what it feels like.....

So the question is...can you say you have truly forgiven someone if these feelings are still present in your heart from time to time....

I had that experience of forgiveness as if a flood of clean fresh water had washed through my heart, removing all traces of anger and resentment against H.....which I communicated to H afterwards....maybe that was to show me what forgiveness really felt like...also, that was a "letting-go"...I let go of what H had done to me as "mattering" forever...I could go on with my life, having had that feeling.....

So....are the two things incompatible?

Gotta go...thank you so much...-)

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/06/07 08:11 PM
Just to say that today I am called into the hospital to have a scan on my veins...

Please let me know what the scan shows. I would really like to hear that your boy's mother will be around to care for them for many, many more years.

Was the weekend with your friend as good as you hoped it would be?
(Praying that it was.......)


So the question is...can you say you have truly forgiven someone if these feelings are still present in your heart from time to time....

It is natural for us to continue to have conflicting feelings about forgiveness. It works the same as other things that Satan tempts us with. If you have quit smoking, he tempts you to start again. If you have forgiven, he whispers to you that you have not, and that you cannot.

Realize that your mind and heart may not be the source of some of these, or most of these thoughts. I believe that you are better than you think you are. Please understand I'm not trying to flatter you. I want you to see yourself as others see you.

It if often difficult to give ourselves credit where it is due when we are still in the middle of such difficult situations. For some reason we often feel we deserve the bad that happens to us. You know enough of the life of Jesus Christ to know that is not always the truth. Sometimes bad things happen to good people.

My feeling is that while there are some times when God will change our heart overnight, there are also times when perfection (In forgiveness, or any good trait) is a process. Please give yourself credit for how far you have come.

You have a very busy month ahead of you. It may be best if you don't spend as much time here - though you will be missed. Only come by when it helps you reduce stress, and adds to your quality of life. I'll be around if you want to talk.

My W is sitting here next to me, and I asked her if she wanted to say "HI." She says "HI."

There is time for some more - I'll go on for a bit.

Actually, I never lost my own faith...I felt my faith challenged by my H and by his older woman friend...

I tend to ask soooooo many questions. One of the first things I wanted to ask when you came back was what happened to her. Probably it was good I kept quiet. I don't see any good there. If I were you (so easy to say, so hard to know for sure) I think this is one of those cases where you can forgive, but still stay as far away from her as you can. It is difficult when he chooses otherwise.

I have been exploring your comments about (faith in God) when I pray. I do not claim to be a spiritual adviser to you - but I want to avoid doing harm when I post, and I would really like to help build up your faith, and encourage you on your path to knowing more of God. The feeling I get is that because of the things that have happened, you are struggling with some things that you used to accept, and believe. You don't need to comment on this, but I wanted you to know that others care, and are praying for you - that you may find the answers you seek.


In prayer this morning....I was reminded that He came to me long before I met H, and that I said yes to Him long before I met H

YES !!!
And he is able to claim you even if he cannot claim H - though it is hoped H will accept his help also.

...that I said yes to H because I said yes to marriage with a full heart, and I have tried to continue to say yes to what marriage should be....that I have a right to say no to what my H wants which I feel is immoral....in fact, that I SHOULD stand firm against what I feel is immoral....saying yes to God means saying no to the Devil, in other words....

As I said, you are better than you sometimes feel you are. There is no better proof than the things you are feeling, as recorded above. When doubts come, call upon God in Prayer to help you, and continue on. Don't let fear and doubt drag you down.

Do take time to tell me how your vegetable patch is coming along. Gardens are such a reflection of real life. We plant, and things start to sprout. The weeds get in, we have to dig them out. There is so much to do, and so little time to do it. If we pay attention to one spot, it does better, but then over on the other side, it may be struggling. We vow to spend more time there next week - it goes on, and on.

So the question is...can you say you have truly forgiven someone if these feelings are still present in your heart from time to time....

I had that experience of forgiveness as if a flood of clean fresh water had washed through my heart, removing all traces of anger and resentment against H.....which I communicated to H afterwards....maybe that was to show me what forgiveness really felt like...also, that was a "letting-go"...I let go of what H had done to me as "mattering" forever...I could go on with my life, having had that feeling.....

So....are the two things incompatible?


Can you ever say that your garden is weed free FOREVER?

We live in the world, and struggle to be "not of the world."

Remember that this world is TEMPORARY. This is like going to the university to prepare for real life. Does it sometimes feel like you are always in finals week?<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Smile - learn to relax. I hope you get that holiday, and that it is good for your health, and well being.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/09/07 12:46 AM
Thanks so much for your last post. I got a distinct feeling of calm as I read your words about my faith, about forgiveness...these are the things I need to talk about most and I appreciate you taking the time to help clarify these things....

As you read from my last post, I am really scrambling for time here which is why I haven't gone into detail...but God works in mysterious ways....we were supposed to go to France today, but after H booked the ferry ticket, H discovered that the boys' passports went out of date 2 weeks ago...since he keeps them in his locked chest of drawers and has taken to hiding the key, there is no way I could have helped him with that...he has to take responsibility.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Well, he was angry to start with, but we have all talked it over and none of us are too upset...the ferry will defer the ticket to another time, so we don't lose our money, and we have decided to stay here and go on days out to do "fun stuff" here....it has all worked out for the best....I have got one set of notes done and hope to get the second set done tomorrow....I have also been helping my sister with a family crisis back home in California....she has ordered the book LoveBusters and so have I...I got my copy 2 days ago, and also got Surviving an Affair yesterday....it's only taken me 5 years....as I recall, though, 5 years ago, it was hard to get it on Amazon in the UK, I remember looking then...oh well....

The scan on my veins went well...in that all my veins are clear...no blockages....its just that the veins on my left side are more enlarged than the right side....whether or not this is causing the pain is hard to say, but the pain has kicked up again quite bad and is also creeping around to the right side....it's weird...a dull ache, and also sharp points of pain sometimes....I have to go back to my GP and now wait for a referral to an orthopedic specialist....maybe I have wear and tear on my hip joints, I don't know...from all that ballet when I was younger...that's all I can think of....so that's why my vegetable patch is totally uncultivated this year...sorry! Oh, and I also had a good visit with my friend this weekend...

I am very glad your wife has come to sit with you at times when you reply to my post...I appreciate that replying to me takes time away from your family and I don't ever want to interfere with what you have to do...also, if your wife has any insight that she feels she would like to share, I would be very glad to hear it...

I came back and reached out for help because I was so depressed, so lonely and needed someone who understood what I had been through to encourage me to seek help here in my own town....I have managed to start that process now, but have further to go....again, I have to set up counselling now with the counselling service....now that I am not going on this trip to France, hopefully I will be able to do that this month...I'd like to have something set up to start in September....I don't want the priest to think he is alone in counselling me emotionally...he might feel unqualified and under too much pressure....I need to discuss theological questions with him, like you have done with me, without him feeling like I am dependent on him for emotional counselling...

So...since I came back here, I have...

Reached out and made arrangements to talk to the priest who is currently in Africa, who will be back at the end of September....

Reached out and talked to the African priest, who is going to try to talk to my H, and come to dinner with us....

Ordered and received the books, LoveBusters and Surviving an Affair....

Got back to work on my degree course.....

Talked to two of my friends who are in the psychiatric services, which has helped me feel more confident about going for IC....

Started trying to pray every day....resolved to start keeping a prayer diary....

And started trying to sort out these confused thoughts and feelings I have about forgiveness/repentance...

So yes, this has been very supportive....I'm just trying to let you see that some concrete steps have happened with your support....

I don't mind you asking questions. It's sometimes difficult for me to reply in depth the way I would like to, but I am also trying not to "ramble" too much...I can get very long-winded! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

About H's older woman friend. We had a falling out - although I didn't tell her that in so many words. I last spoke to her almost two years ago, when I found out about H's last affair. After that, I just resolved not to speak to her again, or to see her. I felt her advice to both of us was not helpful. These are very confused feelings and are a big part of the basis for the annulment of our marriage, if that is what is to be. Basically, 22 years ago, I fell in love with a man who had a long-standing affair, emotional, possibly at one time physical, with a married woman. I did not know about her when I fell in love with him and he was not open and honest with me about the depth of their relationship, either before or after our marriage. I accepted his friendship with her out of love for him, but it was, I believe, misguided. I have proof that H desired and fully intended their deep friendship to continue after his marriage. This is grounds for annulment in the Catholic Church. I don't believe there is any chance that he will ever renounce his friendship with her, although my refusal to engage in any relationship with her for the past two years has put some stress on him. We have always included a trip to her home as part of our yearly visit to his parents. That is the only time he sees her although he talks to her several times a year, maybe once a month. Last year, and again, this year, I have refused to visit her...I have made my own arrangements and chosen to take the train on my own to his family, while he took the boys and visited with her and her family for a day. The same will happen this year. H has respected my wish not to see her and has not challenged me on it. She sent me a cheque for £200 last year, to "help with my degree"...I sent it back to her with a polite note saying my mother had left me enough money for my degree and the gift was too much, I couldn't accept it. This year, she sent me a birthday card with a gift voucher which I haven't acknowledged. I know this seems churlish and it is not like me to not say thank you, but I do not want to be drawn into a relationship with her. I do not want to support and enable her friendship with him any longer. I know it is too late, but I have just decided not to participate any longer in something which is having a bad effect on me. I want to stress that this woman is a good woman, a very kind and loving woman who under normal circumstances, is a good Christian woman...but in the past..they WERE openly in love with each other, and she has actively maintained a close emotional friendship with him...but she is not his mother....maybe it is an Oedipal relationship, maybe its not...but I believe what it did do is destroy his ability to share his life fully with any other woman...I was a part of enabling that to continue...so I feel partly responsible....underneath the friendship and the warm family atmosphere she offered us was sometimes a latent hostility towards me that came out in conversations about our shared Christian faith...she is an evangelical, born-again Anglican and she was always challenging my faith, and implying that I had to be more forgiving, and that my faith was not personal, and that it was weak...there were times when she told me she was ashamed of me, and whatever my H did, she always "shared the blame" by pointing out my faults, too....I feel the particular cast of her religious beliefs, which she has shared with H, have put an impenetrable wall between H and I...this is what I want to discuss with the priest in September....what really did it for me, though was when she held herself up above me....I was devastated when I found out about H's last affair and called to ask her to pray for us...I told her he couldn't expect me to live the rest of my life in this arid desert without love or affection and she said that *SHE* would never dream of leading her children into the desert to die of thirst...SHE would rather die than do that to her children....it suddenly struck me that she, of course, wouldn't lead them into the desert, no, she just fell in love with a younger man, whose love she had kept for the last 20 years...that's how she handled the desert in her own marriage at the time....I thanked her for all her help in praying for us, and I haven't spoken to her since....I had never raised a finger against her, never pointed out her transgressions to her, accepted her friendship in good faith, looked at all her good qualities and respected the sanctity and hospitality of her home....having her set herself above me was too much....I have tried to talk to H about it, but he doesn't say anything....never did, never will, because this is a big reason why our marriage is not a marriage, and why it never worked.....anyway, as ungrateful as I must appear to her....I can live with that....I just don't want to see her or talk to her again...I am tired of accommodating her and although she has been very loving towards me in the past, she has also hurt me a great deal....it is one of those situations where "love" has harmed as much as it has helped....I wish it were different, and it could have been, if she wasn't so determined to be "right", and if she could have openly acknowledged her own sin and not tried to minimize it...then I would have had more respect for her, but she has always tried to sidestep the issue...what I now realize is that she was a WS and still justifies herself in the manner of a WS....Anyway, saying no to a relationship with her seems to be one step I can take towards standing up for myself...

OK, I have lapsed into being long-winded. Usually there is a long story behind this, and/or my feelings are confused. Mainly, though, I'm just sorry I wasted half my life on this. I'm 50 now, and I met him when I was 26. This has taken up literally half my life and spent my youth....I have two beautiful children, whose lives I am trying to salvage....I have had to live almost 20 years thousands of miles from my family and was not able to be with my mother and my brother when they died...all this because of the choices I made...I take responsiblity for making those choices, but also feel I was sucked into the orbit of this woman and my H, who were involved in a long-term EA when I met H...she had a strong incentive to try to make his marriage "work" so she didn't have to feel responsible for "ruining" his life...I think that's why she expended so much effort trying to save our marriage....and H simply learned from her that it was OK to have extra-marital affairs...after all, it worked for her, so why not for him? And why should I object, since I accepted her? So it's all a bit twisted, but there you are.....one of my friends here said to me that in our 20's we try to be very "tolerant", and coming from the land of fruits and nuts (California), and a child of the 60's, I was the perfect candidate to tolerate the unusual....the strict Christian principles and the strict marriage principles as advocated so strongly by old-timers here were foreign to me...they seemed judgmental and rigid and unforgiving....it is only through a life spent trying to accommodate what can't be accommodated that I have found out the old ways are that way for a good reason....all I can say now is that I am older and wiser....but no closer to having a happy marriage....JL would say that's because I won't "walk the walk" and kick him out...maybe so....

Well, its very late here...so I'd better get to bed.....

Hope all is well with you.
LIR
Posted By: Cherished Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/09/07 02:28 AM
friends4life,

I scanned through these posts with a great sense of sadness. Last week, my kids were watching the second Harry Potter movie, and one of the characters is Dobie, the house-elf. House-elfs ALWAYS have to obey. They are treated very poorly.

I'm struggling to come to a new understanding of marriage vows, but one thing I've learned is that being a house-elf leads to poor treatment. You wouldn't leave no matter what because of your commitment to marriage.

I've often thought that Harley is a good marriage counselor because Joyce put some fear into him. She is no house-elf. If you ever listen to the radio show, focus on how she handles calls and her responses. I remember once Harley on the radio show saying that she dumped him seven times when they were dating. They were talking about being married for 42 years, and I could detect just the hint of fear in him. It's not manipulative on her part or fabricated on his. I think he knows that she won't put up with bad treatment. Period. What I am doing now is removing myself from my husband when it feels unpleasant to me.

One thing you might want to consider is letting your husband know that the boys know he had an affair. It might not seem so justifiable to him if he knows his boys know. I remember once Harley saying exposure was like light on mold.


Cherished
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/10/07 09:42 AM
Dear Cherished,

Thank you for your post. It's true...I have also had the same thoughts about the house-elf in Harry Potter....I think the house-elves are JKRowling's metaphor for women who do all the work, are slaves to the home and are badly treated....it is also true that sometimes I have felt like a house-elf. I don't deny it.

But there were many times when I felt my H genuinely appreciated how I took care of my family, our home and our children...I thought that was what he wanted....and as I have gained more independence, he has not grown any closer to me....

I don't really know what goes on in my H's head because it is a state secret. That's the way it is. What I have learned is that he is responsible for his choices...not me. I didn't provoke him into being a WS, and I'm not responsible for him remaining to be secretive and pursuing other women. Like you said in your BS Fog thread, he is wholly and utterly responsible for choosing to have an affair or affairs.

As to the Harleys, I have not had any personal contact with them. It's interesting what you say about their personal relationship. I can understand why you are interested....it is important that they reflect the success of their own program, and it appears that they do....certainly their understanding of the dynamics of attraction, commitment, faithfulness and infidelity is the best I have ever encountered...the only practical approach which really seems to make sense and to work for a lot of people.

What you said about her "leaving him 7 times before they were married". Do you mean that this means she wouldn't have him until he committed to what she wanted from him? Or that she demonstrated to him that she could live without him...that makes her a strong person? I also broke up with my H several times before we got married, and I broke off our first engagement, specifically over his older woman friend. I did the right thing. There is a lot more background I would have to give you, including that while he and I were lovers, I read her letters behind his back....because I guessed that he was not being truthful with me, even though I had asked him directly....I was truthful with him about reading his letters, though....completely honest.....so I had every reason to believe that when my H asked me to marry him a second time, when he said he had resolved everything with this woman, and he knew that I had read his letter, there was every reason for me to believe that it was me he really loved, and that he had accepted and forgiven me for reading his letters. I have my own diaries from that time and it is clear that I was completely open with him about my thoughts on her and the dangers of having her in our life. I also have his letters to me and I can look back when I think he never loved me to see that he wooed me with a passionate heart, even after I had rejected him because of his R with the other woman. Had I known then what I know now, I would have made demands that he would have to fulfill....ending his R once and for all with her, writing a no-contact letter, establishing that there was no place for privacy and secrecy in his life with me, demanding a joint bank account from day 1, committing himself to spending time with me alone....

But from my H's behaviour immediately following our marriage, and in the first year of our marriage, I don't think my H would have been capable of keeping these commitments, even if he had made them to me....he says one thing and then does whatever he feels like....he has a lot of personal problems...issues with resentment that he is projecting on to me...why that is, I don't know....but H is not consistently "bad"....he is consistently "variable"...for example, we are having some very nice days here right now...he has done some good work on our patio, he is spending loads of quality time with the boys, he is busy planning days out and is very cheerful...he is consulting me about this, not being imperious....this is the man I was happy to marry....I don't know why he is in a "good" mode right now....he is a different animal from the "bad" one....he REALLY is like a Jekyll and Hyde....and he was always that way....so I don't think my being a "stronger person" would have affected the outcome of our marriage at all....I know that I have let myself be walked on in a lot of ways....but I have also been very strong, I haven't been a complete doormat and I'm not wholly dependent on him.....I really don't think, at this point, that anything I do would make any difference.....

Like you said....he has free will....his choices are his....and my job has been to get out from under being bullied into thinking I had something to do with it....I certainly am not going to accept being bullied by HER into believing I have something to do with his philandering streak when SHE is a long-term OW who taught him by her own actions that that was an acceptable way to live while being married.....

As to older OW....when is a friend a long-term friend and when is she an OW...once an OW, always an OW, in other words, or is it possible for something which was once a passion to settle into the dust and become just a long-term friendship...when is a friendship and EA and just a friendship....I don't think my H has any sexual longing for this older woman....this is long ago in the past, when they were both much younger....I think he equates unfaithfulness with sexual longing....for him unfaithfulness is sexual, so he doesn't "understand" why I am hurt by his "friendship" with other women....he chooses to see it as unreasonable....

What I think I am trying to say is that I don't believe my H is oriented towards being a husband....if you find all the "requirements" of life-long marriage onerous, and always have...that is, honesty, openness, putting the other's well-being at top of your list, spending time with your spouse (because you love yer), sharing yourself, trusting....if all these things feel like a burden to you, then are you really even capable of marriage? Maybe some people are not...maybe my H is one of those people....and he can't accept that...he has to lay the blame on others for "requiring too much of him".....

Just some more thoughts.....

As you can see, Cherished, I can spend a lot of time hypothesising about the inside of my H's head.....and telling over the bones of the past.....

My main job is to stay inside my own head and try to put my energies towards building my own capacity for independence.....not to forget that I have a future and that my children have a future....that was my intention in coming back here to this forum, not to try to get sympathy from anyone, because I know that staying with someone like my H is not going to meet with the approval of many people on this forum....I also felt that here I might be able to talk about some faith issues I have been muddling over...to get some clearer understanding of certain issues of faith....

So I can relate to your faith issues that have to do with sacrifice...as I am also Catholic, and my spiritual life is oriented in that direction....

I'm not sure "fear" is the right word to describe Harley's feelings towards Joyce...perhaps "awe" is better....that would be good....what do you think? I don't think fear has any place in a good marriage....and they have a good marriage....

LIR
Posted By: Cherished Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/10/07 11:19 AM
I think there is a hint of fear in Harley's feelings towards Joyce. From what I gather from the radio show, she dumped him when he violated the POJA. It's not that she made demands. It's that she didn't put up with anything. I can only think of one description of a violation of the POJA. They were both teenagers when they were dating, and they were on a ferris wheel. I think the way it went was she was a bit afraid of heights and he decided to rock the bucket. I think Harley's point is that you don't put up with violations of the POJA. That's why there is Plan B.

My sister in law is in a state of emotional divorce. She makes choices which are good for her. I'm trying to make choices which are good for him but which also work for me.

There's a book called "Love and Hatred: The Stormy Marriage of Leo and Sonya Tolstoy" which you might want to read. Tolstoy violated the POJA in breathtaking ways, and Sonya eventually became hysterical. Tolstoy fathered a boy by a peasant woman before his marriage, and Sonya knew about it. One day, he saw her in their house cleaning the floors with the boy beside her. She became jealous.

Tolstoy got so used to violating the POJA that he could not endure her objections to anything, and he left her and just took off from the house when he was 82 years old. He ended up dying of pneumonia in a trainstation. It's a fascinating story of what can happen to a marriage when the woman sets out to "endure all".

Cherished
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/10/07 11:48 AM
Well I've heard about the Tolstoy marriage, but I haven't read anything specifically on them....I don't know if she could have left him, but in those days, women didn't have a lot of choice....enduring all was more or less a way of life and the only option for most women up until the 20th century, and it remains a way of life for hundreds of millions of women all over the world today.....

LIR
Posted By: Cherished Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/10/07 12:21 PM
Both Leo and Sonya kept diaries throughout their marriage. Women could leave men, but what kept them in unendurable marriages was the belif that you must keep your marriage vows. In fact, one daughter in law of the Tolstoys left their son after a year of marriage. But why didn't Sonya leave Leo? It was religious belief rather tahn practical necessity that kept her there. Leo wrote a story about how evil it is to have intercourse because then women dominate due to men's incontinece. Meanwhile, Sonya is embarassed because she is pregnant. He humiliated her, and yet she stayed. But she did become hysterical, she did have dramatic shows of attempted suicide like running into the snow in her nightgown, going to the trainstation to throw herself under a train, diving into water in November,...

She tried to endure.

Cherished
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/14/07 04:18 PM
Just to say that I've taken the step of calling the counselling service - I've left my mobile number and they will call me back, I'm sure.....

This week, our friends are visiting our town for a week. The H is busy on business and tied up all day, but the wife is free and yesterday I spent with her....she is helping me to clear my vegetable patch...being up there with her yesterday was inspiring...but today its raining hard-(

I have also been back to the doctor and got out of her what I wanted - painkillers, a referral to the physiotherapist and a referral to an orthopedic specialist, which she didn't want to give me. She wanted to refer me for physiotherapy and nothing else....I finally said that until I had a diagnosis for the pain I am in, I am not going to give up, and if I find out that damage has been caused by a delay in diagnosis that could have been avoided, I will be very upset....at that, she backed down....I am so tired of having to battle to be taken seriously....I hope that whatever it is is not too bad....but the way they practice medicine here is different...they guess what could be wrong, and then treat for that...if that doesn't work, they guess something else, instead of identifying a condition and doing the full range of diagnostic tests for that condition to rule it out completely....that's too expensive, so they make do and hope they can identify conditions without too much cost to the system....in the hopes that whatever is wrong with you either won't kill you, or will clear up and go away....usually by the time they find out what's wrong, the condition is acute...that's why there is a higher death rate from cancer here...like my friend's mother who had stomach pain and vomiting and was treated for months for "indigestion" until she died of stomach cancer....anyway, I now have a prescrip for Voltirol and I can still feel the pain, although it is manageable....H and OS have gone to a concert this eve, YS is playing at his friend's house, so I am having a couple of hours to myself....

The friends who are visiting are the couple that I helped recover their marriage three years ago....the H is my H's oldest friend....he is going to take my H out this week for a drink solo....last night we all went out together....I found that inwardly difficult....both of them know what my H has been up to and what he's like with me....the wife is really mad at my H, because she has been through recovery with her H with my help. She says that now, which is almost 3 years since D-day, her H is looking back and can't believe he did what he did...he is full of remorse and is not the same person....he wants to talk to my H...so last night was an icebreaker....I don't think my H will listen to him, though...and I feel low, because I feel like I have lost everything I ever had for my H....I don't like the person he is, I don't like the person he has become, I don't think I will ever be able to get along with him because I can't go back to thinking about him and behaving the way I used to...I realize now that I let him walk all over me....

I know it might sound crazy, considering our past R history, which hasn't been right from the start...I know that...but I do think my H loved me....

Then he got caught in one EA after another....and during EA2, he met a new friend...a very intellectual man who became like his latest friend and spritual advisor....you remember, ss? It was when he was with that guy - talking to that guy - that H started to hate me....up until then, I think he knew he was doing wrong...but something happened there.....that guy went back to the States, but he is still my H's friend, and recently came over this side to a conference....my H saw him because he went to London to take him to the airport...the guy is now married (2 years)....I think that guy was poison....

Anyway, when I think back on the personal R between H and I, the most consistent message I feel like I've got from my H over all the years I've known him is:

"How dare you interfere with my private life?!"

So that doesn't say much for him, I don't think...

Anyway, I just wanted to report that I have called the counselling service....so I think that's a good thing.

Coming here, I was trying to find a way to break out of the bunker I had put myself in....I knew I needed to do SOMETHING - to make contact, to set up therapies for myself...to try to do something...so I think I have now got myself on the road to therapies, and I think my next job is to try to assess my financial state....

Posting here helps me to journal out what I'm thinking and what I have to do...it helps me find the strength to carry out what I think I have to do....like trying to find my way out of a maze....

LIR
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/15/07 09:49 AM
OK, I have an appt on Mon. 20th at 12:30. That's a big step for me. I am also reading LoveBusters. What strikes me is how many people come to Harley truly hating each other, which is where I think H and I are.

I talked to my BIL on the phone yesterday....he is reading it, too, I pushed my sis to get 2 copies, so they are both reading it, and their daughter is reading it too - lightbulbs going on in their house now...he and my sis have known each other since High School and have been married 25 years....he said yesterday he would do anything for her, that he is deeply in love with her after 25 years....that really touched me, because they have their problems, too....not infidelity, but LoveBusters on both sides...so I think this book will really help them.....I am hoping it can help us, too....

There was something you said, ss, that really made me listen....that it was not until you read this book that you saw some of the things you were doing, and the effect they had on your wife....my BIL said the same thing yesterday...said he didn't realize the effect they were having....

...some of the husbands in the book sound so much like my H....well, angry outbursts for sure (that's me as well, in the past)....but the guy in the DJ chapter...."coaching" his wife towards improvement and the one in control of everything...finances and decision-making....my H does ALL the LB's....he basically lives as if I didn't exist....he was so confident about the way he handled things (and he is pretty good at handling things)...plus he felt it was his responsiblity, and he was stepping up to the plate and TAKING that responsiblity...that he forgot I was there and had feelings about the decisions he made, as well as a right to make joint decisions...to contribute to the decision-making process....in other words, I was along for the ride, he did a good job at managing our life and he couldn't understand why I got upset or unhappy sometimes...when I did try to have input, or disagreed, there was a ferocious angry outburst on his part as he put me back in my place, or punished me for screwing up (like denting the car)...

...what startles me about Harley's book is how he can turn these relationships around......how many of his examples deal with spouses who don't even register that their spouses have feelings...that's my H...my feelings don't even register on his radar screen and never have.....when I have tried to say that I am hurt by something, he used to say..."well, you shouldn't be...it's not meant to hurt you...it has nothing to do with you...or it's not directed at you...." - something along those lines...in other words, he didn't mean to hurt me and if he did hurt me, I should just forget about it because there was no malice towards me....going further, if I was hurt, there must be something wrong with me for taking offence at something not directed at me.....I remember reading Harley saying somewhere that if you poke someone in the eye, you say you are sorry, you don't say "well, I didn't mean to, so what are you complaining about?!"...but spouses do this all the time..."I didn't mean to, so why are you making such a fuss...?" That's my H. Even to the point of when he was having his EAs, and his PA..."It had nothing to do with you, it wasn't directed at you, I didn't mean to hurt you...."....that I should be hurt angers him.....

I know that when you started posting to me, ss, that it was because you thought you could see something of yourself in my H, and you hoped you could help.....I know that is why I have listened to what you had to say because I knew it came from a space of humility at turning your own marriage around....

I don't really have a lot of hope anymore, and although I don't like my H right now...he has spent all his Love Units bigtime....and we have the added heartache of infidelity, I still see the good in my H. Last night, he took OS to a concert in London....he wanted us all to go, but I backed out because the tickets were standing room only...because of the pain in my side and because I didn't think YS would manage it....but it was POJA that he should go and take OS...I knew they would have a great time and OS would be inspired and have a great experience....and that's what happened...so I am happy....I am happy that H was a good father and spent this special time with OS having a brilliant time...I'm not jealous...I chose not to go this time.....YS and I stayed home, had a happy supper together and YS got to bed at a reasonable hour....we are all going to have a day in London tomorrow, and ALL go to a concert, but this time with seats, so I can sit down....YS can bring his book...we will all be happy....my point is that H can and does try to have a good time with his family....and that it is possible for him to have POJA on occasion....on the RARE occasion....

I guess I try to see the good in my H still, but my first priority is to trying to get myself together....
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/19/07 04:14 AM
Don't know where to start........... a lot has happened.

Lets concentrate on the happy part. We celebrated my W's 50th tonight, and nearly all our children were there. We had a very good time.

How are you this weekend?

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/19/07 07:41 AM
Congrats to your wife!

I was hoping you were OK. I always figure you should not post unless you feel God wants you to address a specific issue, so I knew that if you had something to say, eventually it would happen.

I've had a good week....like I said, friends were here. The wife did amazing things in my vegetable patch - we spent several days clearing it together....she has worked a miracle there....I feel so inspired to continue, and so grateful....she really stressed to me how healing growing things is, and she loved the site of my vegetable patch...its very peaceful up there....my neighbour has given me some leeks to put in....

I had long talks with her and she took me out to lunch yesterday....I gave her HN, HN and Surviving an Affair to take home with her...she is going to post them back to me when she is done....she and her H are 2 yrs into recovery and it is going well....he did everything he "should" do, MB way...sharing passwords, changing mobile phone, giving her his cellphone, NC, moved house and job...she says he is now very remorseful and looking back on it, can't understand his behaviour....she says he reads the Bible every day now, and is heavily involved in their church and Scripture group....I told her the danger for them is if he ever feels he has done so much for her and it is still not enough...any resentment and anxiety she feels she has to deal with through the total recovery program in SAA, and they need to make sure they are both meeting each other's ENs....they came over to share a bottle of wine with us last night, and as they left, her H passed me in the hall on the way out, gave me a big hug and whispered in my ear, "thank you for everything you have done for (his wife)"....I told her earlier I wouldn't wish what she and I have gone though on my worst enemy, so I am just grateful I have been able to help them...her H didn't have a chance to meet with my H solo...but maybe they will be in e-mail contact....

Today H and the boys head out on holiday for his dad's, stopping at older woman friend's (should I abbreviate that to OWF?) house on the way....I will be following on Tues, then back the following week on 29 Aug....

I also got an appt with the counselor...which I have tomorrow....I am looking forward to that...

Still no developments from our African priest, but there is still time yet before he goes back home....will probably see him this morning in church...

So that's my news. I am plugging away here, trying to set some change in motion...it has to be change that I can handle, though....

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/20/07 05:18 AM
I always figure you should not post unless you feel God wants you to address a specific issue, so I knew that if you had something to say, eventually it would happen.

These last few weeks it has been a lack of time. It pains me when I am not able to do things I feel are important. I speak of many things, not just MB. Being away from home can really limit what one can acomplish. I am through with summer trade shows for this summer, and though busy, at least I am at home now.

You sound better. Bless your friend for lifting you up. You needed it, and it looks good on you.

....she says he is now very remorseful and looking back on it, can't understand his behaviour....she says he reads the Bible every day now, and is heavily involved in their church and Scripture group....

These things go together. When one is actively pursuing God, they get more help.

when I have tried to say that I am hurt by something, he used to say..."well, you shouldn't be...it's not meant to hurt you...it has nothing to do with you...or it's not directed at you...." - something along those lines...in other words, he didn't mean to hurt me and if he did hurt me, I should just forget about it because there was no malice towards me....going further, if I was hurt, there must be something wrong with me for taking offence at something not directed at me.....I remember reading Harley saying somewhere that if you poke someone in the eye, you say you are sorry, you don't say "well, I didn't mean to, so what are you complaining about?!"...but spouses do this all the time

"Oh what? I stabbed you with this knife, and it hurts? Well, I didn't mean to stab you, so you shouldn't really be bleeding."

Yes, I understand. My W and I have discussed this more than once.

I am glad you have an appointment with your counselor. May it help as much as it could, and should.

I've had a good week....like I said, friends were here. The wife did amazing things in my vegetable patch - we spent several days clearing it together....she has worked a miracle there....I feel so inspired to continue, and so grateful....she really stressed to me how healing growing things is, and she loved the site of my vegetable patch...its very peaceful up there....my neighbour has given me some leeks to put in....

After many years of gardening, I believe it really is good for us. I believe it provides a connection with something we need to be connected to. Beyond that, I am not sure if I can explain, but I believe you feel it. Nothing teaches the law or the harvest like growing things in the earth. It provides much of my therapy.

I trust your sons are well?

Still worried about your physical pain. Please report on any news in this area. Sorry you have to cope with it.

Really glad to hear this latest report from you. You really sound like you have more hope (Overall). That's what friends are for.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/20/07 07:15 PM
Thank you for your reply - you know, I know that you are very busy and like all busy people, there is so much more that you would really like to do, especially when you want to help people. One of the things I have found with MB is that it can be addicting - especially when you feel you have a lot to offer people who are hurting. But you should never come to post here if it leaves your family hurting, needing your attention. I have that policy for myself. I am doing my best to build my support network here in "real life", too, because I think that is the healthy thing to do. There is something slightly different about this forum, though - in your "real life", your friends and family can be pretty biased, especially if they see you as the injured party. This forum allows you to air concerns openly and anonymously and get less biased, and very experienced feedback, especially during a crisis, which is invaluable. And sometimes people build supportive relationships here when they are in need. I feel very grateful for the support you have offered me, ss - you have helped to nurture, support and guide my faith when I have been very down and insecure. I am grateful to your wife for supporting you in offering help. There are times when I think it would be nice to be able to thank you both face-to-face someday. Maybe someday many years from now, when I have come through this trial by fire and my boys are grown up. My eyes are still on that prize....to bring my boys up to adulthood without derailing them completely. I don't expect it to be bump-free, as they are struggling, too, but it is so far, the best I could hope for.

I thought I would wait to post until I had my first counselling session. It was an assessment session which lasted about an hour and a half. The counselor I met was not the one I will be counselled by, but I felt good about the way the lady I saw today spoke with me, listened, and seemed to be responsive about the issues I talked with her about. Although I felt very low and cried a lot, as my sad feelings come bubbling up when I try to talk about them, I still felt more assertive than I did in 2002. I think that if I don't get on with the counselor they give me, that I will be able to ask for someone else this time. Last time, I wasn't too happy with the counselor but felt too shy to make an issue of it. The woman who was assessing me felt that what I will need is "long-term" support - my situation is not a short-term quick fix-it issue. I felt relieved about that - I feel she assessed me correctly. We also discussed change and I said that I recognize the need for change, but I don't know how to get there, and there is only so much I can handle. Whatever change I try to make, it has to be change that *I* can handle, and it has to be change that I feel the boys will be able to handle. She said she understood that aspect of it and felt that was a reasonable approach to have at this point. We have set up a possible appt for the 11th of Sept., and I felt reassured on leaving.

I am home alone today. The boys and H went off yesterday - they called me last night at bedtime....H called at midnight searching for their toothbrushes in the car...I had to talk him through where they were....although some would disagree that allowing him to go to OWF's house without me is a bad thing, part of me thought....OK, he has to be "The Parent" now, because I am not there to marshall them into their pyjamas, decide when they should go to bed, unpack their stuff and generally take care of them...he has to do all that when, if I were there, he would be socializing and charming his friends...calling at midnight last night showed me that he finds this difficult...it will allow his friends, (and OWF in particular) to see him struggle and perhaps his temper will flare...the boys will rebel and sulk...he will be controlling...in other words, they will potentially see a side of him they have never seen, which is a good thing...for now. I wouldn't want to put the boys through too much of that....

Anyway, tomorrow I am taking the train up and they will meet me at the station, I will get back in the car and go over on the ferry with them...I'm not sure what the sleeping arrangements will be when we get to FIL's house...but if necessary, I will sleep on the floor. I also intend to have a talk with FIL while I am there. I am thinking about how to approach it. FIL is very fond of me and I think he already knows what the problem is...he is none to pleased that H goes "on business trips" for more than a couple of days. I think I will just tell him the truth in a nutshell - that 6 years ago, we started having problems...that my H has had relationships with other women behind my back which he has lied about, with the latest two years ago, which he admits was an affair. That he does not want to talk to me about it and says he really does not love me, says he never loved me and only married me to try to do the right thing. That I will not sue him for divorce on the grounds of adultery or unreasonable behaviour but I have told him he can sue me for divorce on the grounds that our marriage has broken down completely. I will say that he has broken my heart, that I have tried to save our marriage and I am very concerned for the boys. I do feel that if he is not going to leave us, in other words, if he decides to stay living with us but does not want to reconcile, even so, he should put his wedding ring back on - that he is married in the eyes of the Church, in the eyes of God and in the eyes of the law until he is legally divorced and/or our marriage is annulled. And that I don't want him to date other women while he lives with me....just because he decided he isn't married doesn't mean he can do as he pleases and still live with me. In other words, s*** or get off the pot, as my Dad would happily put it! (sorry) I am not stupid enough to think this will stop my H from doing what he wants - after all, that is why we are in this mess in the first place, but I will at least have made my position clear to FIL - that I don't approve of his behaviour and have not given him "permission" to do so. I don't think it is right to ask my FIL for anything, or to do anything. I suspect he will ask me if there is anything he can do and I don't know what to say. I don't think it is ethical to ask him to pay for H to move out...and I don't think he would offer, or want to do that....he will feel that H should pay for the mess he has made himself...but if FIL does have money (and MIL implied that he had a lot) my only concern is that our sons education be supported...that would be the only thing that I feel I could ask him to help me with....

On the more humorous front...I saw an article on "dumpster-diving" here - apparently you can get an amazing haul of high-quality food every day out of the rubbish skips belonging to certain top-market food stores...you just have to be brave enough to venture forth about 10:30 pm and dive in....if things got tough, between my vegetable garden and those dumpsters, I don't think I would ever go hungry....-)

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After many years of gardening, I believe it really is good for us. I believe it provides a connection with something we need to be connected to. Beyond that, I am not sure if I can explain, but I believe you feel it. Nothing teaches the law or the harvest like growing things in the earth. It provides much of my therapy.

I feel very uplifted by my friend's help with the garden...although I am going away tomorrow, I will be back in a week, and when I come back, I will certainly be planting...leeks, garlic, broad beans (like lima beans) and winter salad - Chinese mustard, kale and radicchio...maybe I could even plant some parsnips and carrots....it is definitely true that I have had moments of joy in that vegetable patch, and that's saying a lot for me....when I sat there after a hard slog clearing and digging and sat down to eat a snack of my own home-grown vegetables, in the shade of the plants I had tended....yes, that was special...it is very healing to bring something to fruition

Well, I am still very slow because I am still feeling tired and sad, but a little less heavy....I had better go and pack my suitcase now before it gets any later....I won't be taking my laptop with me because I don't want the boys to use it to play computer games this week....I'll check in tomorrow before I leave....

I hope you now have some time to relax with your family....

All the best,
LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/28/07 07:40 PM
I would guess you are home, or will be shortly. Of course I wonder how this trip went for you. I hope there were happy times and good memories.

I was thinking a few days ago, and came across this passage in the NT. I know you have read it, but thought to bring it to your attention again.

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

I think sometimes we (or I) concentrate on the hard parts, and I don't have enough hope. God never breaks his promises.
Never.

I believe you love him. You can take this though to it's logical conclusion - You can't imagine in your wildest dreams how happy he can make you, or the peace that will be in YOUR future.

We often think in earthly terms. We base our hopes and dreams on what we experience, and what we know. Faith teaches us that there are miracles out there - and not all of them are reserved for someone else.

I encourage you to raise your sights. You had dreams once, and they were lofty ones. Don't be afraid to dream. It's good for you. Happiness is not for "others," whoever they might be. It is for you, and for your children, and for your H, if he will repent and come to Christ. Don't give up, and think happiness will never come to YOU.

From Psalms 30:5 -
".......weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."

I encourage you to be of good cheer, and have hope. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, tell us about the trip - both the good, and the bad. And of course, we want to know how you are doing, both emotionally, and physically. If you skip anything, I'll ask about it anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 09/11/07 09:05 PM
Finally, I am able to get back here! I HAVE been back since the 30th, but I've had two solid weeks of hard work, which I'll tell you about...good AND sad.....I am feeling very tired today, but can't let any longer go by without thanking you for checking up on me, and trying to start on letting you know how things are going.....

It's strange that you quote 1 Cor 2:9 - I had just read that scripture passage myself and written it down in my prayer diary....it is the passage that I wrote in the last card I gave to my mother when she was dying....my mother used to say that when these "coincidences" happen, they are not coincidences", they mean that you are doing something right in your life, and this is what you are meant to hear....so I take it that this is truly the message that God wants me to hear - he's said it to me twice - once to me in my heart and then again, through you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Is that what you mean by confirmation?

The holiday went OK....although staying with my FIL has its difficulties, I was glad in the end that we did stay with him because we got to see more of him....he is almost 90, and because I was there with him, I was able to see that he really is getting very frail....although I don't think there is any chance of him going into a home...he will stay in his own house until they have to carry him out....

I'll go into our holiday more in depth later....I did get a chance to talk to my FIL....I'll try to tell you about it...he is very old-school in that it is extremely difficult for him to talk about intimate things, and problems and feelings fall under the type of things you don't talk about, so for him to talk to me was a major event...and we didn't say a lot...he was kind to me, though, and he said he was very worried about it....had been worrying about us for a long time and wished we could work things out....I said I had tried to, but H says he doesn't love me anymore, in fact, says that he never loved me....I cried when I said that....FIL said "you don't believe that, do you?"...and I said "no, I don't"...FIL thinks that can't be true...he said that it "takes two to make a fight" and if H were here he would sit down with him and tell him the same thing...I tried to explain that I had tried to take responsibility for my own failings but that hadn't helped the situation....he said he didn't understand H because it is "out of character" for him....I said I thought he was having a mid-life crisis and I was trying to weather it through....he said that H was always a little "difficult" and that there were a few times when he was younger that they almost came to blows because H was convinced he was right (I know the feeling)....I said that sometimes H unleashed his anger on me in private...I said that I did not want to do anything to derail the boys' future and that they were doing well, so I had no plans to take any action to end our marriage...he said he gathered that my H had been "disloyal" to me and was I sure about that?...I said I was, that I had found proof, and that H was angry at me for going through his things....I said H would not apologize to me and did not want to talk about it or see a counselor or priest....he said could I not write H a little letter and say I was willing to let bygones be bygones and try to start over...I told him I had already forgiven H and told him how I had told him that...he wants me to try again...I told him that the trouble with H was that he lived an independent life, and made decisions as if I did not exist, he planned what he was doing, to see his friends, to go places, to socialize, without consulting me or taking my feelings into account, and that he gets angry with me if I disagree with him...FIL said sadly that he knew H did this...clearly he did not like it....but he (like everyone else, feels powerless to have any impact on H)... the last thing he said to me as we left, as I kissed him goodbye, he hugged me (which he rarely does) and asked me to try to write that letter....I feel for my FIL...he wants, at the end of his life, for everything to be OK, to leave us knowing we are happy, and this is really hurting him....I don't think H cares at all, or even comprehends that our situation DOES hurt his dad....

I don't think this talk will have any effect on our situation...because I don't think FIL has any "leverage" with H....I hesitated to do it, because H and FIL had a mini-row in the two days that H was there, and I saw how hard on H my FIL can be...but I also know that FIL has a caring side, and I felt that FIL would understand that I was approaching him to try to be open and honest about what was happening to us, as I suspect H is likely to "fill him in" - in other words, he is in the dark and no-one tells him anything and he is too polite to ask....

So basically, he wants me to write H and tell him I am willing to forgive and forget....

I am meditating on this.

I also wanted to tell you that I had my first counselling appointment today....I think that I like the counselor...I felt much better about her than the last counselor I had in 2002...this lady is about my age, and seems able to pick up on what I tried to talk through....she was able to pull things together and repeat back to me what I had said...so I could tell she had been listening...I have a good feeling about her...and we agreed that one of my goals in coming to counselling is to try to make sense out of everything so that I can eventually work out a direction for my life....

I have more to talk about, but it's now late and I have to try to get some sleep...I am now back at work and having to get up at 6-6:30 am...the boys are back in school...everything there has gone very well....I have also put some hard work into my vegetable garden...got quite a bit of reading done on my coursework while I was away, but haven't looked at my books once in the two weeks that I have been back....

I am hoping you are well, ss....thank you for all your words of encouragement

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 09/12/07 11:33 PM
Greetings !

Reading, and thinking.

Glad you are safe. It sounds like you are back in the routine. That can be both good, and bad. (SS chuckles.)


my mother used to say that when these "coincidences" happen, they are not coincidences", they mean that you are doing something right in your life, and this is what you are meant to hear....so I take it that this is truly the message that God wants me to hear - he's said it to me twice - once to me in my heart and then again, through you! Is that what you mean by confirmation?

In part, it is what I mean. He also confirms it in your heart by the witness of the Holy Spirit. This is something you feel, more than hear.
I do believe that message was meant for you to have. I came across it by accident, but felt it was meant for you.

I'll wait to hear the rest of your experience.

Sons are doing well?

I notice that many parents are caught up on their own struggles, and some are not aware of the struggles of their children. Do you know what the greatest worries of your boys are as they begin this new school year?
I am just curious. No ulterior motive.

My garden suffers from the heat this time of year. By now, the plants have had more than 2 1/2 months of over 100 deg F days, and they are only watered once a week. The peppers do the best in the heat, and we have bell peppers, and several varieties of hot peppers. We enjoy southwest style cooking, so they are useful.

The tomatoes are struggling, and the squash are struggling. Low production right now - but it will come back in Late Sept and last until Late November when we get first frost.

I have the pole beans coming up for fall - it's too hot in the summer for them. And I will plant my winter garden this Saturday. Turnips, Carrots, and spinach. Most winters are mild enough to get a winter crop of these things. Oh, and onions will go through the winter also.

Anyway, I am thinking about the things you have said and will perhaps keep my comments until after you have finished with your thoughts.

Ok, maybe I'll comment on just a few things.

So basically, he wants me to write H and tell him I am willing to forgive and forget....

Are you thinking about it to know if you really are willing, or are you wondering if it will do any good to write it?


Very glad your counselor seems to be a help to you. Praying it will accomplish what you need it to.

but haven't looked at my books once in the two weeks that I have been back....

I admit to worrying about that. Time is short even when the H, and the W are full and equal partners. It is worse when things are out of balance. We continue to pray for you.

I am feeling very tired today................

The world, and the weight of the world...... seems to be very much with us lately. I wonder if this is an indicator........... that something big is about to happen.

I am glad your sons are not old enough to be drafted.

We trust that God will continue to take care of all that look to him for strength.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 09/21/07 04:22 PM
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Glad you are safe. It sounds like you are back in the routine. That can be both good, and bad. (SS chuckles.)

Thank you, ss - yes, I am back in routine - up 6-6:30am, leave house at 8, walk to work, work, walk home, shop on the way home, home 4-4:30, then do chores, start dinner, ferry kids to where they need to go sometimes, do laundry....dinner, supervise homework, ironing....wash up....not done until 10pm, usually....kids help, H helps sometimes...but...I'm feeling exhausted....I am SOOOO looking forward to having that one day off from work, which starts in Oct.....so I've found it hard to come back and post, even though I have "stuff"...

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He also confirms it in your heart by the witness of the Holy Spirit. This is something you feel, more than hear.
I do believe that message was meant for you to have. I came across it by accident, but felt it was meant for you.

I hear you...sometimes you just know it - it speaks out at you...when my sons asked me once why they had to go to church when they got bored, I said to them..."I know you are bored, but I am sure that during the hour you are there, there will be at least one thing that you pay attention to, that gets your attention....and it's that one thing that God wants YOU to hear that day, even though the rest sounds boring....that one thing is the reason why you go to church...you don't have to pretend to be interested in the rest, although that wouldn't hurt...." Thank you for passing on the message!-)

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I'll wait to hear the rest of your experience.
I wish I could find the time to write!

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Sons are doing well?
Very well! Settled into school, enjoying it and working well....

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I notice that many parents are caught up on their own struggles, and some are not aware of the struggles of their children. Do you know what the greatest worries of your boys are as they begin this new school year?

That is actually a great question...and the honest answer is no....I should....but I never thought about it in that way, and I haven't asked them directly...do you have any suggestions about how to approach them?

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My garden suffers from the heat this time of year. By now, the plants have had more than 2 1/2 months of over 100 deg F days, and they are only watered once a week. The peppers do the best in the heat, and we have bell peppers, and several varieties of hot peppers. We enjoy southwest style cooking, so they are useful.


Gosh! How do YOU cope? Mine is doing OK....working on clearing the ground.....just have some leeks and some ruby chard coming up...I'm going to plant broadbeans (like lima beans) to overwinter, and hopefully some raspberry canes....too late to have anything else....

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So basically, he wants me to write H and tell him I am willing to forgive and forget....

Are you thinking about it to know if you really are willing, or are you wondering if it will do any good to write it?

Not sure. I don't have any feeling that my H is capable of changing, so I guess I feel writing such a note would not improve our marriage - if we "reconciled", it would be on the same terms that I have accepted before....with no moves from H towards changing his behaviour, just carrying on the way he is, but sleeping with me again....and how can I accept this when he has made it absolutely clear that he doesn't love me? FIL wants me to write this note, but I have already told H I forgive him and told him I still love him, so I don't know what more I could do in that respect, except write him a letter with a list of demands that I know he wouldn't accept, and that he would see as controlling...? So I feel stuck....I told FIL this, but he still wants me to write this note....he won't ask me again, though...FIL is very quiet....

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Very glad your counselor seems to be a help to you. Praying it will accomplish what you need it to.

Thank you. I saw her for the second time this week and I do find it helpful...it is still early days....

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but haven't looked at my books once in the two weeks that I have been back....

I admit to worrying about that. Time is short even when the H, and the W are full and equal partners. It is worse when things are out of balance. We continue to pray for you.

I am just too tired. That's why I need one day off per week - only then can I get some work done on my degree...and I want to do it....I have plans....

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The world, and the weight of the world...... seems to be very much with us lately. I wonder if this is an indicator........... that something big is about to happen.[

I am glad your sons are not old enough to be drafted.

Are you worried about this? I hope this never happens. My nephew is 23 and in the Navy - he's a submariner...out at sea now until Nov. - he enjoyed it at first, but is now finding it demoralizing because he doesn't feel his hard work and excellent service is being rewarded....I feel bad for him...I pray that he stays safe.... and all your loved ones, too...

To update....briefly, because I will have to go out in a few minutes....

H's OWF wrote to me last week....a very beautiful, contrite letter apologizing for anything she might have said to offend me, saying that she believed some of the things she said to me were harsh and insensitive, and she begged me to tell her if I had anything against her, and to forgive her if she had hurt me in any way.....this is what took up my energy last week...I tried to write to her several times and kept getting bogged down...I really struggle these days to find any words to express myself because I feel so emotionally drained....but I did write back to say that yes, some of the things she had said to me did hurt me very much, but that I do forgive her (I do...it's not just words)....when I have more time, I will tell you more....I haven't heard back from her, but I am OK with that....

Another thing happened that upset me which I found hard to talk about....when we came back from our holiday, I learned that the father of one of YS school friends had died the day I left to go on holiday. This upset me because I tried to help this man a few weeks before....it was clear to me that this man (who was a very nice man, a loving father, went to our church, often stood in the pew in front of us) had a drinking problem...I could always smell it on his breath....when you have lived with an alcoholic, and you have alcoholism in the family, like I do, you recognize this smell...it was always there with him...the morning after smell...anyway, apparently his wife left him in May or June...I still saw him at the school from time to time...then, end of July, I saw him in the supermarket....I tried to avoid bumping into him by turning down aisles to get away from him but as luck would have it, I turned around and there he was...he said hi to me...I could see that he had a little bit of food in his basket and a large bottle of vodka...he was such a nice man...I hoped he wouldn't bring up his family problems because I didn't want him to be embarassed....but he did, and once he started talking, he couldn't stop...I stood with him for at least 45 minutes while he spilled it all out, his fears that his wife was having an affair with a guy she had become friends with whose wife had just left HIM....I tried to comfort him but also give him some reasonable advice - I told him he should come to MarriageBuilders and start reading the articles here...I managed to approach the subject of his drinking...he admitted that it could be a problem...he said he would go to AA if she wanted him to....from my experience, and I do have some, it was clear to me that he was not in a space to stop drinking....he was not ready to quit...and actually, that's a very selfish space to be in....but he was not there...he was still making excuses for himself...but he was also clearly devastated by his wife leaving him....so I come back to find that he died....I still don't know how he died....no-one seems to know...but if it was suspicious, there would be an inquest and there hasn't been....I just hope and pray that he didn't take his own life....for his children's sake.....the thing is that I don't know who else knows what he told me...about his wife....I don't want to tell anyone....but I feel bad about it....I wish I could have helped him more....I know it's not my fault, but I feel sad for him and his family....I don't feel as bad as I did when I first came back from holiday, but I had to sit with that for awhile.....I hope it was nothing I said...he didn't want to believe his wife was having an affair, and I tiptoed around it, too, but I was skeptical, to be honest.....I guess all I can do is pray about it.....

So, I've got to go now.....to take OS to a lesson....

I will try to pop in this weekend...am determined to get more sleep this week.....

Wishing you well...

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 09/22/07 12:25 AM

Thank you, ss - yes, I am back in routine - up 6-6:30am, leave house at 8, walk to work, work, walk home, shop on the way home, home 4-4:30, then do chores, start dinner, ferry kids to where they need to go sometimes, do laundry....dinner, supervise homework, ironing....wash up....not done until 10pm, usually....kids help, H helps sometimes...but...I'm feeling exhausted....I am SOOOO looking forward to having that one day off from work, which starts in Oct.....so I've found it hard to come back and post, even though I have "stuff"...



Living the tired life is no fun. I can't believe how much you ladies actually do each day. My routine seems easy when compared to yours, but for some reason I have been tired also. It is not so bad to go to bed tired, but when you wake up tired, and never ever feel rested, it takes a huge toll on a person. I see you know what it feels like.

I understand about posting........ and I would guess some nights it's all you can do to get into bed at a decent hour. I would also bet that there are many times when all you can do at the end of the evening is just sit.

Ah - to be 17 again. Except that I would never go back just to have more energy. It was too hard the first time, I don't know if I could do it over again.


What you told your son about church is so true. It is also true that part of growing up is learning to make boring things interesting by applying our selves to the subject at hand.

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I'll wait to hear the rest of your experience.
I wish I could find the time to write!


I worry when I ask questions....... because one can sometimes feel how it is on the other end. Knowing the energy it takes, and knowing how tired you are........
At any rate - I worry. I continue to pray that your H will help more. When the marriage partnership is functioning properly, it is much easier to make things work. I am sure attitude is part of it. We can do so much more when we know it is appreciated, and when we have help.

So glad your sons are doing well. The twins (daughters 14) are doing fine, though they were not excited for the new year to begin. One of them will be playing a solo in church in a few weeks, and the other just won first place in both ceramics, and line drawing in a multi school art competition this week. So, they do well most of the time. Children are a wonderful gift from God.

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I notice that many parents are caught up on their own struggles, and some are not aware of the struggles of their children. Do you know what the greatest worries of your boys are as they begin this new school year?

That is actually a great question...and the honest answer is no....I should....but I never thought about it in that way, and I haven't asked them directly...do you have any suggestions about how to approach them?


I have a hard time with the girls, because I can't read their minds like I could the boys. (Having been a boy makes that easier.) I watch them in the evenings for signs.

How happy are they?
How much patience do they have?
Can they concentrate on what they are doing, or are they distracted?
Sometimes it's as easy as "tell me what's going on"
If I ask about each subject at school they will sometimes talk a lot about one of them that has been the most trouble. (this is spread over several evenings.) Usually it's a teacher/student thing, not a subject/student problem.

If they are asked questions about what is going on, they come to understanding on their own in most cases.
"Why do you think your teacher does it that way?"
"Do all the other students have a problem with it too?"
"What do you feel is the best way to make it work?"
"Would you like your mother to help you with that?"

I hope the last one made you laugh.

To be honest, I never used to think much about this with my own children, but I have the opportunity to interview all the youth (12 to 18) in our small church at least once a year, and so I better understand what causes them stress, and how to encourage them, and help them.

The twins respond well to having breakfast with me, and having me home for supper so we can talk about their day. Humor is a wonderful catalyst for conversation too.

"What was the most enjoyable thing you did today?"
"What was the most difficult?"
"Do you have much homework tonight?"
"Anything interesting happen on the bus today?"

Well, that's probably enough. I was just wondering if you have a difficult time reading boys minds, like I do girls minds. Thought you would bring it up and see what methods YOU used. I hope you don't mind me asking questions like that.


Gosh! How do YOU cope? Mine is doing OK....working on clearing the ground.....just have some leeks and some ruby chard coming up...I'm going to plant broadbeans (like lima beans) to overwinter, and hopefully some raspberry canes....too late to have anything else....


Cactus gardens do really well here. You don't even have to water them !!

We don't do well with very many things, but we manage. We do have some raspberries, and they struggle, but we have boysenberries that grow like weeds, and the jam is really good. One of these days, I'll have to come by and visit your garden. It would be interesting to see the differences.

About writing the forgiving letter -
Not sure. I don't have any feeling that my H is capable of changing, so I guess I feel writing such a note would not improve our marriage - if we "reconciled", it would be on the same terms that I have accepted before....with no moves from H towards changing his behaviour, just carrying on the way he is, but sleeping with me again....and how can I accept this when he has made it absolutely clear that he doesn't love me? FIL wants me to write this note, but I have already told H I forgive him and told him I still love him, so I don't know what more I could do in that respect, except write him a letter with a list of demands that I know he wouldn't accept, and that he would see as controlling...? So I feel stuck....I told FIL this, but he still wants me to write this note....he won't ask me again, though...FIL is very quiet....


When you first mentioned that FIL brought it up, I thought about it quite a bit. I wondered if you wrote something along these lines if it would help.

Dear H, I was thinking about you today, and thought I would write you.

We have had an interesting time these last few years.

Our marriage has not been all that I would like it to be. I would guess it is not all that you would want either. I thought perhaps it was time for me to make you an offer for us to reconcile, and see if we can have a relationship that both of us would really enjoy.

I would like to forgive, and forget. I would like for us to have love again, and trust. I would love for us to have the chance to talk about these things, and work out the details.

End of sample -

I was thinking along those lines. My fear is that you would get hurt even more than you already have been. For you to write something along those lines would be emotionally difficult, and the chances are that if he rejected your offer, it would hurt all over again as bad, or worse than it has every other time.

Usually when I think along these lines, I think of the 7 times 70 comment, and how many chances I had before I finally got it. (OF course, I still make mistakes, so maybe I have not "GOT IT" perfectly even now.)

You would have to write it with the things you want to say, I was only thinking along the lines of what tone I would use were I in your situation, and writing something of that nature. This is not supposed to be telling you that you ought to be doing it soon. Just telling you my thoughts on it, for what it's worth.
Doing it, or not doing it is something that you can know through sincere thought, and prayer. I think taking time, and thinking about it would be helpful - meaning that you don't need to rush into it, not that you should set aside time right now. I would suppose that walking to work is a time of thought for you.

SS smiles - you may think on these things, or you may make up the grocery list, but I would guess you are able to do some thinking.

On working on your degree -
I am just too tired. That's why I need one day off per week - only then can I get some work done on my degree...and I want to do it....I have plans....


Would it be an intrusion to ask after your plans? Please don't feel any need to comment if you don't wish to. You could just skip over it, and not even bring it up.


Are you worried about this? I hope this never happens. My nephew is 23 and in the Navy - he's a submariner...out at sea now until Nov. - he enjoyed it at first, but is now finding it demoralizing because he doesn't feel his hard work and excellent service is being rewarded....I feel bad for him...I pray that he stays safe.... and all your loved ones, too...

To be honest, I don't know what will happen in the world. The financial markets show some wild swings. The bible predicts war in the last days, and natural disasters. W's brother has been in Afghanistan until about a month ago. Next door neighbor was in Iraq for 18 months.

Jesus spoke once about his people being able to read the weather, but not signs of the times. To me, it feels like something is coming, but I claim no specific knowledge.

H's OWF wrote to me last week....a very beautiful, contrite letter apologizing for anything she might have said to offend me, saying that she believed some of the things she said to me were harsh and insensitive, and she begged me to tell her if I had anything against her, and to forgive her if she had hurt me in any way.....this is what took up my energy last week...I tried to write to her several times and kept getting bogged down...I really struggle these days to find any words to express myself because I feel so emotionally drained....but I did write back to say that yes, some of the things she had said to me did hurt me very much, but that I do forgive her (I do...it's not just words)....when I have more time, I will tell you more....I haven't heard back from her, but I am OK with that....

WOW -
One of these days, we'll (meaning my W and I) will have to get together with you and just talk. It takes so long to type some things out. Was that helpful, or did it just create more stress?

It was sad to read about the father of your son's friend who passed away. It does create stress, even if we know we could not help. At least it does if we care about people, and I know you do.

I have been working with two families these past few weeks. One who's baby came early ( less than 2 lbs) and another who are struggling with their marriage. It has taken a lot of energy, hence I understand about being tired.

I take comfort in God, knowing he is always there, and will help when help is needed. When I tell you God cares about you, it is from personal experience, not because I know the theory. He does care about you.

May the weekend be kind to your need for sleep. God bless you.

SS

PS - I don't have time to edit for errors, so forgive me if they are bad ones.
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 10/04/07 05:46 PM
Would you believe that the reason why I have not posted is sheer tiredness? Sometimes I feel as tired as a dog with three legs! The last three weeks have been so busy....H was away for 5 days last week, which didn't give me any more free time - I was just less stressed...both the boys (and H) have been sick, and I've chosen to do things with the boys on these last two weekends....I took YS to the movies this last weekend, which was nice...to do something alone - and OS has had various things on at school. So I have been back to getting to bed too late, which is not at all good for me....

So, I am sorry I haven't been back...I am not ungrateful for the support you've offered me so unselfishly over the years, ss....believe me.

I finally have some "good" news on the pain I have been suffering....I saw a physiotherapist last week, who immediately seemed to recognize all the pain I was describing, and she says that it sounds like I have damaged a disc in my back....that pain from that often is felt in the leg and the pelvis....I feel much more cheerful, relieved to know that it is as "simple" as that....however....it's not such great news, really is it? But she has given me some heavy-duty physio exercises that I need to do...I have started doing them and the pain is now moving around to my back! Basically, I have a lot of work to do on the old skeletal frame here, and the muscles that support it....she also says that the problem is deeply exacerbated by my work....sitting, and typing on a keyboard for several hours a day....data entry....this is a warning to all who post here for hours a day....unless you take care of your posture and get up, walk around, and do back exercises, spending a lot of time here can seriously damage your back! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Not the greatest news, but it could be worse! So far, at least I don't need surgery....and I am just so relieved to know what is wrong....slightly annoyed though that 5 GPs and 3 other specialists couldn't diagnose something that simple....you would think that doing in your lower back is one of the most common things in the world, and something GPs see frequently....

So...I have to be careful about spending too much time on a computer....it will FORCE me to be brief! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have now had 4 counselling appointments and am feeling like I like my counselor....I am just finding it helpful to have someone confidential to talk to, completely privately, knowing that there will be someone there each week at the same time every week.....I feel she is compassionate and is able to take on board the stuff I need to talk through, and she seems able to try to find a positive direction for things to go from week to week....

(Well the phone just rang - I had to answer that, now I have to go get YS from a friend's and also clean up the kitchen and get dinner on the table....so I have to end...this is the way it goes...)

The other good thing is that I am finally going to start having those Wednesdays off....the new person who will be working that day started at work and I have been training him...he'll be fine...and I think it's a good thing for my boss...while I like feeling like I make a strong positive contribution at work, I am also feeling like I am indispensible in that my boss has become too dependent on me, which is not really a good thing...she shouldn't have to call me at home for routine things...so my not being there one day a week will be good for her...she has relied on me too much....don't get me wrong, I think she is a fantastic boss, and does a great job as a manager, but she has relied on me to do the "front desk", and if I am sick, or if I had to take time off work, I am afraid she would not really know what to do...so it's time she got to grips with that...it puts too much emotional stress on me....I can't just walk aaway from it, which is what I need to do....

I would love to continue with my post, but I can't....but I wanted to touch base so that you knew I was not ignoring your last post....there are things I want to come back to....but I will have to do that later....hopefully it won't be too long...

I hope you are well....not good when you get that tired...have you had a diabetes test? Heart check up? You take care....best regards to Mrs. ss....

God bless,
LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 10/17/07 09:45 PM
Would you believe that the reason why I have not posted is sheer tiredness? Sometimes I feel as tired as a dog with three legs!

Yes, I would believe it.

Sometimes I wonder just how much I ought to say. I mean, we think a lot of things we never say out loud.

Here is my line of thinking about you being tired.

There is tired, and then there is tired. Someone that does physical work can be exhausted when they get home. Someone who is depressed, or suffers from anxiety can be emotionally exhausted almost continually. You seemed to be doing better this year, but knowing the history, one worries about your energy levels. I am not saying this to cast you in a bad light. I believe you have researched depression, and probably know more about it than I do. It's not even the dead of winter yet, so environment shouldn't be hard to cope with - as far as your physical world. However, your emotional world is probably not getting much better.

You still long for a companion, and you still have lonely times when you wonder - or doubt.

Now, this is all supposition on my part. I am just typing out some of the things I have worried about. I really hope you have lots of good days too when you believe with all your heart that your future is bright.

I think I typed this out as a help. Remember that we, as members of the human family have similar problems. You are not going through anything that hasn't been experienced by many others. (Myself included.) I like to remember that it's a temporary state of mind, and that someday the Lord will remove us from these test conditions, and that we will be free of the things that try to drag us down. Meanwhile, we continue to function as best we can.

Now, you are kind to worry about me too - You said:
I hope you are well....not good when you get that tired...have you had a diabetes test? Heart check up? You take care....best regards to Mrs. ss....

A few years ago I had some bad chest pains. W took me in for a full battery of tests. The treadmill, and the works.

The doc said "You are as healthy as a work horse - those pains in your chest are heartburn."

It was acid reflux. My problems with ulcers just relocated.

So, I learned to cope, and it went away. I believe I have talked a little bit about it already.

I am tired because of emotional stress, and exhaustion. My duties in my church take a lot of energy. Now, it is good for me, but it takes energy to make it work. I don't believe I am in any danger from it, so I continue as best I can.

Last month a couple had problems, and the W filed for D. Another couple had a baby come three months early. It was touch and go for a while, but it is doing much better now. Last Sunday, I got a call from a lady who had almost taken her own life - she needed to talk to someone once the hospital released her.
I know God is there, and that he will help, but sometimes the people I work with don't know that. Once they know, and once they start getting that help, they can usually begin to put their life back together.

I suspect that the position you hold in your family, and doing what you do with no companion/helper may be what takes it out of you even more than the schedule you keep - heavy as that is.

I'm just vocalizing my thoughts. Tell me if I worry too much.

SS smiles - You should know that we continue to pray for you.

How are the leeks coming ? My winter onions have sprouted, and the turnips are doing really well. Of course, we won't have frost for another month or more, so we continue to get tomatoes.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 10/17/07 10:01 PM
As far as your back.......

Not the greatest news, but it could be worse! So far, at least I don't need surgery....and I am just so relieved to know what is wrong....slightly annoyed though that 5 GPs and 3 other specialists couldn't diagnose something that simple....you would think that doing in your lower back is one of the most common things in the world, and something GPs see frequently....

My uncle is a Surgeon. He and I talked about this one day. He told me that if you get in an accident, they can do a good job of fixing you up. But - He also said that if you have a pain somewhere, or are ill, often they can't figure out what causes it, or how to fix it. He told me lots of people get well before the doctor figures out what was wrong.

I won't go into all the reasons he gave, but don't feel like the lone ranger.

I hope that you will improve now that you know, and can begin to work on the problem.

The boys are well?

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 10/17/07 10:24 PM
Very good to hear from you, ss - glad to know you have had heart checked out and that's ok - sounds like your wife keeps good tabs on you! After all, she wants to have you around for as long as possible!

I only just this evening managed to get back to check here - thank you so much for the reply....our router failed last week, so we had to wait for our phone company to send us a new one as it is still under warranty - couple that with the ongoing postal strike on in the UK and we just got back online. In some ways, I miss those pre-internet days...I used to write a lot more letters....I'm not so big on e-mail....there's nothing to hold on to....I like to see someone's writing, and all the nice cards and stamps....

I understand what you are trying to say about exhaustion...I have always spent a lot of time "supporting" my loved ones, and friends who need support - some of my friends have had breakdowns, some have physical illness....life gets tough, and it helps us to be thankful, but it can get emotionally exhausting....I seriously wish that I could do more. I feel that if our marriage were stable and what I would like it to be, I would practically have open house at my home....I was always the kid bringing home stray cats....but yes, you are right, I am starting to feel the impact of the emotional toll on me....now that I am in counselling, I guess I am starting to reveal the depth of the impact to my inner self. I am beginning to trust the counselor can handle what it is I have to try to talk through, and that she can help me find my way out of the maze I feel I am lost in...I have basically abandoned H to his own devices, which makes me feel very sad. I do not want to leave him as I feel I would be abandoning him, but at the same time, I need to work on trying to restore myself right now, if that is possible....

Your testimony that the Lord is real and that He will help you if you keep trying to do His will really does come back to me over and over again. I am glad you said it.

I am doing little things to help myself. Like just now, I found the perfect picture to put as my desktop background. I decided to image search the internet for a particular scenic view of a place close to my heart - where I spent my teenage summers - my mother and my brother's ashes are scattered there....I found the exact picture I was looking for, so I can now look at it every time I log on....little stuff like that that lifts my heart.

Today was a beautiful autumn day here...I worked a little bit in my garden and a robin came down to watch me...they hang around when you are working...when your back is turned, they drop down and snap up bugs and worms you have overturned...I can always tell when he is around because I can hear the low beat of his wings, then I see him, very near, on the old brick wall, or perched on a low branch in a nearby shrub, watching me with his tiny black eye. Robins are very bold....tiny birds with a bright red breast, and standing tall on their little stick legs. They are out in the fields in the spring and summer, but move back into the town gardens in the winter...this one always comes down now whenever I am working in my garden...like a friend. I now have some salad greens, leeks, and I planted some winter onions...its encouraging....still not that cold here yet...

Well, my back is hurting so I have to stop....seeing the doctor - the back doctor - on 31 Oct....hopefully he will order an MRI scan....so I'd better go.

You take care.

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 10/23/07 10:16 PM
I read through your post a couple of times...... so as to absorb it better.

It's so interesting what one can pick up from things about daily life, and the way a person says things. The words one uses, the way they are put together.....
I used to write a person (here on MB) who's screen name was SVB1. I could pick up a lot about her from those cues - but I think it may have .... what's the right word?
Not scared her, but it was a little unsettling for her to have me pick up things that she might not have intended.

I think your counselor must be helping, because you don't sound so worried as you did even a few months ago. There is a calm feeling I get from reading that wasn't there for a long time. I think it is helping you cope from day to day to know you have someone to talk to that understand you, and that you know is safe. Safety is important.

I guess I am starting to reveal the depth of the impact to my inner self.

When you understand that the Atonement is real, you begin to discover great healing power.

"Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world" begins to mean that if he did it, we can too, with his help.

I wonder if I had been in the boat with them, on the sea, if I would have doubted, or If I would have thought "Well, this is the Lord in the boat next to us, and he is sleeping. There is still much for him to do, so I doubt this storm has the power to sink us." Hindsight is such a wonderful thing, and there is great power in it's lessons.

You were sent to earth to accomplish things. To learn? YES!! and to be refined, and to grow, but also to accomplish, to bloom, and flower, and experience joy.
I am very glad you are getting help.

I am doing little things to help myself. Like just now, I found the perfect picture to put as my desktop background. I decided to image search the internet for a particular scenic view of a place close to my heart - where I spent my teenage summers

My W grew up in Whittier, CA. She spent summers on the beach. I wondered if your memories are the same, or similar. Sometimes she gets a look in her eyes...... and she remembers. I think it is good to reflect on happy times, and to dream of future ones.

Well, my back is hurting so I have to stop....seeing the doctor - the back doctor - on 31 Oct....hopefully he will order an MRI scan....so I'd better go.

I really hope it can be repaired. We'll pray for that.

Is the new person at your work making things easier for you?

As far as gardens go - the fall green beans are almost ready for the first picking. I take out the determinate tomatoes, and leave the indetermanite ones, and I put beans in place of the determanites.
We can't really grow Salad greens very well, because it freezes in the winter, and it is to hot in the summer. Spring and fall don't seem long enough. I have tried lettuce, but never had success. I suppose one has to make do with what one has, not what one wishes for. That seems to be true with both gardens, and life.

I am not sure what your father's specialty was. Did you ever consult with him about your back?

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 10/25/07 11:12 PM
Quote
I used to write a person (here on MB) who's screen name was SVB1. I could pick up a lot about her from those cues - but I think it may have .... what's the right word?
Not scared her, but it was a little unsettling for her to have me pick up things that she might not have intended.

I remember that. I have always wondered what happened to her. I think you helped her a lot. I left the forum while she was resolving her marriage and when I came back, she was gone, except she checked back in once, I remember. I have always wondered if she ever found out what her husband was up to when he put that unexplained mileage on the car. I suspected he was visiting a brothel or something. I felt so bad for her when she was using the hidden tape recorder, but understood why she did it...I have sometimes thought I should do that myself, but it would break my heart to hear the bad things I think I would hear my H say about me. There really isn't anything left of the feelings I had for my H when I first came on to this forum - all the romantic feelings you have that engender jealousy when you suspect they are in love with someone else. I think I also felt like it was useless to get more evidence....the lawyer told me I had enough evidence to divorce him, so it was really up to me, and I didn't think any evidence I got from spying on him was going to help me influence him to change what he was doing.

Quote
I think your counselor must be helping, because you don't sound so worried as you did even a few months ago. There is a calm feeling I get from reading that wasn't there for a long time. I think it is helping you cope from day to day to know you have someone to talk to that understand you, and that you know is safe. Safety is important.

Yes, I think so. She asked me what my priorities were right now and I said safety was the most important thing. Why it is I feel safest not separating from him, I don't know, maybe it has something to do with not rocking the boat, but maybe it could be that he is not involved with anyone right now (that's my feeling anyway) so he is feeling more "normal". I also think that OS growing up and getting bigger and weightier than him is changing the dynamic in the house - H is not ALWAYS a bad father - I've always said that - it is really like he is two people - a decent one and a selfish, stressed-out one, and when the selfish one is dominant, things get stressy with him making an issue over small things and getting authoritative and antagonizing everyone around him. My sister said something the other day, that a counselor told her that when someone has been severely bullied, they often acquire a behaviour of provoking people into confrontation - it is the way they can be in control of WHEN the confrontation occurs - because one aspect of bullying is that it is out of the control of the victim and can happen anytime, so the victim develops this strong psychological reaction which is to provoke confrontation rather than to wait for it to happen - they expect to be bullied, so they would rather be in control of the conflict by creating it themselves. Weird to me, because I wasn't bullied as a child, but it makes a certain weird sense - and it could be what is going on with my H - I never thought of that before.

You say I sound calmer. I wonder how you can tell. I'm not sure I feel calmer overall, but it is true that I have felt moments of calm in my counselling, and it is these moments I have noticed. In my counselling, I am trying to look at how I feel when I talk - what makes me upset, sad, and also what generates calm. It made me feel calm when my counselor told me we could take all the time it needed to take to try to untangle all the different threads I have bound up inside myself. I sometimes get this feeling of immense calm when I pray, and it's that that I wait for. One of the things that bothers me is that back in 2003, when I prayed for help to decide what to do about H, during Mass, and during Communion, I had that feeling - it came and possessed me just for a few moments and it said "separate yourself from him". Just that. It wasn't what I wanted to hear. I have been totally committed to my marriage. But that has made me doubt and now I wonder if I am going against God by trying to stay.

Quote
When you understand that the Atonement is real, you begin to discover great healing power.
Expand, please...-)

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"Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world" begins to mean that if he did it, we can too, with his help.
Well, I have always felt that Jesus was right there with me, like he was sitting on the bed next to me with an arm around my shoulders. I think I feel a little braver - just a little. Partly I think I am starting to acknowledge that I am unhappy because H doesn't meet my needs, for whatever reason, I have to admit that maybe he isn't the right person to meet my needs and I need to stop resenting him for it. I just read Harley's latest newsletter about expectations in marriage - I expected that he would give me affection, that he would protect me and care for me...yes, I did expect that, strangely enough, and no, in all counts, he has not fulfilled my expectations. But that doesn't make him a bad person - you could easily judge him badly, but that would ignore all the times he tries hard to step up to the plate, which he does. I guess I think he has a few strikes against him because of his background and whatever it is he is keeping to himself, but I have to let go of resenting him for letting me down and just let it go. It's just really hard for me to face up to the possiblity of eventually having to say goodbye. It's easier to end a marriage when you are full of anger and self-righteousness. It's easy to throw someone out who has done the dirty on you. It's a lot harder to quietly agree that what you committed the rest of your life to is a failure for both of you and everything you invested yourself in is just a hollow shell. I guess it wouldn't be hard if I didn't believe marriage is for life. If I thought it was OK to cut your losses and just try again, I wouldn't find it so hard, but I just don't feel that way....so it really feels to me like my life as a married woman is over for good, which feels pretty hopeless. (And you said 'be of good cheer'! - well, I know what you mean, and I think these thoughts are just things I have to work through...)

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I wonder if I had been in the boat with them, on the sea, if I would have doubted, or If I would have thought "Well, this is the Lord in the boat next to us, and he is sleeping. There is still much for him to do, so I doubt this storm has the power to sink us." Hindsight is such a wonderful thing, and there is great power in it's lessons.
I am SURE I would have definitely doubted!!

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You were sent to earth to accomplish things. To learn? YES!! and to be refined, and to grow, but also to accomplish, to bloom, and flower, and experience joy.
I am very glad you are getting help.
Thanks, ss...I sometimes express very depressing thoughts here, and I am anxious as I don't want to be accused of wallowing in misery - as BrambleRose says - pain is a given, misery is optional - I am struggling to find the joy in life - for me it is very small things - my boys smiles, their hugs and kisses, my Dad's sense of humour, colours in the garden, natural beauty like the trees changing colour now, pictures of my mom's smile...certain words I read and the way they go together, my favourite soccer team scoring a goal or winning the match.....

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Well, my back is hurting so I have to stop....seeing the doctor - the back doctor - on 31 Oct....hopefully he will order an MRI scan....so I'd better go.

I really hope it can be repaired. We'll pray for that.
Thank you. I am hoping it doesn't require surgery. Today it has hurt a lot so I have to go lie down now. It's weird - my physiotherapy exercises don't seem to be helping, so I'm wondering what it is. Can't wait to see the doctor and hope I am not disappointed again.

Quote
Is the new person at your work making things easier for you?
Yes, he is. He is well qualified, and it is a new experience for me to train someone else to do this job. I am feeling it is allowing me to let go of my compulsion to be "there" for my boss, so I can let go of that stress, which is helpful to me....I think I have turned a psychological corner with my studies as well. Although I haven't got much done with my 2 weeks off, I have started studying again (just not very much), and I realized that everything I am studying is what I need for my life skills - so it is actually exactly what I need to be doing - very Zen, don't you think? The module I am doing is Management Studies - basically an intro to management - strategic planning, business plans, human resources, information flow, communication, organizational behaviour (I've covered all this) - right now I've started on the budgeting and financial planning section - I've always resisted this (being the dreamy type and considering it boring) but I am realizing that it is actually very interesting and I can apply it to all areas of my life - if I had done it 25 years ago, I would not be where I am today!-) So it seems to have become THE thing that I have to do, not something that feels onerous to have to do, if you know what I mean....that's good!

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As far as gardens go - the fall green beans are almost ready for the first picking. I take out the determinate tomatoes, and leave the indetermanite ones, and I put beans in place of the determanites.
You'll have to educate me in what this means...my tomatoes are always rubbish...maybe I'm doing it wrong....

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We can't really grow Salad greens very well, because it freezes in the winter, and it is to hot in the summer. Spring and fall don't seem long enough. I have tried lettuce, but never had success. I suppose one has to make do with what one has, not what one wishes for. That seems to be true with both gardens, and life.
I know lettuce has to be watered a lot, otherwise it will bolt in the heat. Also, you might be able to grow different types of lettuce, something more sturdy, like Cos lettuce. (?) It freezes here too, and I think the only greens that grow through that are the beet greens and Chinese mustard greens, and radicchio - you can cover things with plastic cloches if you want to take the trouble (do you have those? Like little portable plastic tents - they keep the frost off - or you can grow things in a "cold frame" - this is easy to make - often made with old windows or a square of plexiglass - make a wooden frame (like a box), then cover it with the window or the plexiglass - you grow the lettuce inside it - the glass acts as a mini-greenhouse and protects the plants inside from frost - you lift the cover every day with a stick to allow it to breathe, but lower the glass at night, like putting the plants to bed....

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I am not sure what your father's specialty was. Did you ever consult with him about your back?
My dad is an eye surgeon, but he knows a lot about other things. I do run everything medical past him - he is appalled by the length of time it is taking to diagnose whatever is wrong with me, but what can he do?

Also, I forgot to say that yesterday I told H that I was in counselling. What happened was that his former counselor (the priest) was in town on a visit. My H went out to see him 4 (!) times over as many days. So I asked him if it was "helpful" to him to see this guy (who is now a friend, I guess). "Well, helpful, I don't know....I guess..." was his reply. For some reason I decided to open up a little and I told him I was now in counselling....H didn't say anything...just "Oh..." - he didn't seem hostile, more like he didn't know what to say as it didn't mean much to him one way or the other....but I think he was always like that....I don't think H has ever been much interested in me emotionally at all....he just wanted someone he could live with without too much trouble...in fact, when OS was 5 months old, he actuallly said this to me...we were having a candlelit supper before I went to the States to take OS back to meet his American family, and I jokingly asked H why he married me, thinking he would say something romantic - I was teasing him. He got very thoughtful and then said "Well, I guess I felt I wasn't so emotionally entangled with you that I couldn't live with you." It was the way he said it and the way he kind of gazed at me, like that was the real truth he had let slip out and he didn't think there was anything wrong with approaching life like that....it was so NOT like anything I had ever heard from anyone before that I was dumfounded...I didn't know what to say, I have forgotten what I did say, just that I tried to "lighten up" the mood, or explore it a little more in a light-hearted way, but letting it sink in that I thought I had heard him tell me he didn't really have any emotional feelings for me, certainly wasn't "in love" with me when he married me and that he married me because he thought I would "do", without being a lot of trouble to him. This was one of those times when I saw that "other person" come out...this is the person who has had the affairs, who refuses to engage with me, who is unpleasant and unfeeling towards me. It was like getting a peep under the shades...and seeing what H normally keeps hidden....

Those words put a tremendous doubt into my soul about our marriage. I don't know where they came from, or why, or whether he still feels that way. I confronted him with them after he had EA2, after EA2 was over, and I asked him again why he married me and why he would have said that...he said he didn't know, that that was a weird thing to say and that he guessed he married me because he loved me....he HAS shown love to me, so I guess the best I can say about my marriage is that his feelings for me seem to have been ambivalent. As to why that is, I don't know because he won't say. Although he projects a lot of his own faults on to me, in the past year, he seems to have "settled" a little, and he has also said that he doesn't believe it will ever get any better...that came about when I told him months ago that I was going to talk to a priest, and that I had been to a priest 2 years ago, when I first discovered EA3, and that the priest had told me that if I was single, he would recommend to me that I leave today, but since I had children, I should try to stay with it for as long as I could stand it for the sake of the children...this priest had a lot of experience in marital counselling and he said that he had to tell me that in the cases of repeat infidelity, it rarely ever got any better....I told H this was the advice I had received from this priest and I asked him what he thought about me having received this advice...he just said softly "I think he is probably right"...

So you see that H is living here with me having given up on being a faithful husband as well....also, he has acknowledged that he is to blame, and he doesn't believe he can change, or IT will change, mainly because he resists any discussion on marriage at all - in other words, he consciously refuses to turn his mind to improving himself or his marriage - he wants only to live and work....to carry on with his jobs and do the best he can at that, because that's all he's interested in anyway - that and his sons...

In the eyes of the Church, this is not a marriage...it is a living arrangement...it is not a marriage if the husband decides he can't be faithful....the DESIRE to be faithful, even if you fail at that, is an essential component of marriage, according to the Church....my H does not have that desire, and if he married me without making that commitment, in other words, if the words he uttered were hollow because he didn't really believe them, then we don't have a marriage...it seems to me that that is a possiblity, given those words that H said to me when OS was 5 months old....

So this is why I am confused...because I have been bounced around by his on/off feelings for me for the last 20 years. It is true that I have let this happen to me, which upsets me, but it is also true that I loved him and my promises were not hollow. The only alternative was to leave him, and I didn't think that was part of the deal when I got married.

I have to go now....just some thoughts. Thank you for listening....I am really grateful to you for being there. Now that I am in counselling, I feel supported emotionally here, and your support has helped me to get to that place. I am starting to deal with all this stuff in counselling as well....

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 10/30/07 09:59 PM
Was hoping, but not going to get to it today.

May you get enough rest tonight.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 11/05/07 10:53 PM
Update on SVB1 -
She D'vd her H, and moved back closer to her family. I believe she posted a little bit last spring. I don't know how much detail would be helpful - probably I will spend most of my time on your situation, instead of going into details about her.

She seemed to be adjusting well, except she had a difficult time wanting to date. I sent an email to a mutual friend last week asking about her, but have not gotten a reply.

Quote
I think your counselor must be helping, because you don't sound so worried as you did even a few months ago. There is a calm feeling I get from reading that wasn't there for a long time. I think it is helping you cope from day to day to know you have someone to talk to that understand you, and that you know is safe. Safety is important.

Yes, I think so. She asked me what my priorities were right now and I said safety was the most important thing. Why it is I feel safest not separating from him, I don't know, maybe it has something to do with not rocking the boat, but maybe it could be that he is not involved with anyone right now (that's my feeling anyway) so he is feeling more "normal". I also think that OS growing up and getting bigger and weightier than him is changing the dynamic in the house - H is not ALWAYS a bad father - I've always said that - it is really like he is two people - a decent one and a selfish, stressed-out one, and when the selfish one is dominant, things get stressy with him making an issue over small things and getting authoritative and antagonizing everyone around him. My sister said something the other day, that a counselor told her that when someone has been severely bullied, they often acquire a behaviour of provoking people into confrontation - it is the way they can be in control of WHEN the confrontation occurs - because one aspect of bullying is that it is out of the control of the victim and can happen anytime, so the victim develops this strong psychological reaction which is to provoke confrontation rather than to wait for it to happen - they expect to be bullied, so they would rather be in control of the conflict by creating it themselves. Weird to me, because I wasn't bullied as a child, but it makes a certain weird sense - and it could be what is going on with my H - I never thought of that before.

You say I sound calmer. I wonder how you can tell...........


I was going to cut much of that out, but...... I think I want to comment on most of it, so I'll leave it all.

First - why you seem to be more calm.
I mentioned SVB1 because I could often pick up things about her that she felt were true, but I didn't always have reasons for saying them. Sometimes things just kind of come to me, so I say them. I think my mind figures things out in the background, and I have come to trust in the "intuition" or whatever you want to call it. When I go back and try to understand why I believe you are calm, some reasons show themselves, but I had not examined it in detail before I said it. I just felt it.

These are some of the reasons I believe I felt you were more calm. (YOU may or may not feel that you really are more calm, but these are part of the reason I think I felt to say it.) I also want to go on record as saying that It's usually not a good idea to reveal just how and why I think of things, because subconsciously you will probably adjust what you write and the way you write it after I do this. At least SVB1 did adjust - but she didn't realize it.

Now - back to the subject matter.

You are not writing as many of your feelings down since you have started going to the counselor. This could be because you are sharing them with her, and no longer feel a need to discuss them elsewhere, or it could be because you are working through them with her, and things that used to upset you don't upset you as much. I thought it to be the latter - so I said you seemed more calm. There are a lot more factors that contribute, many small cues, and I won't take the time to identify them all here. It's in the way you say things, the words you use, the topics you choose, the frequency you write..... lots of things. It feels odd to talk about it, but you asked, so I am trying to be honest.

I believe you were worried about going and expressing your feelings. I think it held you back for a long time, even though you knew rationally you would be safe, emotionally you had been hurt so badly, that you didn't want to put your thoughts and feelings out in front of someone just to have them stomped on again.

I may be off, you should tell me if you feel that I am. You are very kind, and I know you would say it as nicely as you could, but be truthful (grin.)

Again, I don't spend time going over these kinds of things in my mind before I write it. It just comes out of my subconscious thought processes, and I type it out as it comes. I don't want you to think I spend a lot of time analyzing you, because I don't really. I do think of what I ought to write, and how I might be able to help. I do pray for you, and your family often. I do think of you as a fellow traveler on this earth, one who is doing quite well in many ways, and needs to know it.
It's hard to get perspective sometimes, so I hope to help with that. I guess I also believe that we won't be able to take most things with us when we leave this mortal life, but we can take our friendships, and our relationships. I believe that's where our treasure is, and where it will be.

Now, about your H's behavior, and being bullied -
I think all that you have said is true, or may be true. There may be environmental reasons for many of his behaviors.

HOWEVER -
All of us have to make the choice to remain as we are, or to improve. People can change, if they want to change. We can resist evil, and seek good. This applies to our behavior as well as our environment. If we try to change, if we read good books, if we study good things, and if we continue to pray and ask God for help, we do change, and we do improve. God takes out the dross, and we are purified as silver and gold.

All of us must make the choice of who we will follow. All of us are making it. It is not my place to judge your H, for I see much of myself in him, and I know I have been given the chance to repent. I continue to hope he will take the chance that God extends to all of us. If he does not choose God, and his Kingdom, it will in the end, matter very little what else he has chosen.

If we were discussing someone who lived half way around the world from you, you could ignore it when we were done, and go back to normal life. Since it is your H, you must choose each day how you will cope with his choices, by making your own. You do well to seek the face of God, for he knows things we do not know, and he can help you make correct decisions.



I'm not sure I feel calmer overall, but it is true that I have felt moments of calm in my counseling, and it is these moments I have noticed. In my counselling, I am trying to look at how I feel when I talk - what makes me upset, sad, and also what generates calm. It made me feel calm when my counselor told me we could take all the time it needed to take to try to untangle all the different threads I have bound up inside myself.

Often I hesitate to comment, not because I don't have an opinion, but because it's just that. It's my opinion. I don't claim to have a pool of facts that others don't have, nor do I claim to always be right. It's just hard to NOT comment, so I do. (another grin.)
I believe you were worried about talking to someone, but after visiting with her a few times, you trust her to actually help, and it brought some relief. I think you have mixed feelings posting to me. Not on the outside, but deep down inside, and it may not be in your conscience thoughts. I think that is healthy -
After all, I am a strange man you met on the internet. (LOL)
It makes a good joke, but it's the truth too.
Of course, she has training that we on MB do not have, and I believe you will get a lot of help there. I am so glad you are talking to her.

I sometimes get this feeling of immense calm when I pray, and it's that that I wait for. One of the things that bothers me is that back in 2003, when I prayed for help to decide what to do about H, during Mass, and during Communion, I had that feeling - it came and possessed me just for a few moments and it said "separate yourself from him". Just that. It wasn't what I wanted to hear. I have been totally committed to my marriage. But that has made me doubt and now I wonder if I am going against God by trying to stay.

I could say a lot of things in response to this.

I could say:
"Well, you did separate yourself, you are not sleeping with him, or following after him."
or
"So why didn't you do it? Why are you still married to him."

These and other variations on these two, it could be debated that you did, or did not follow the inspiration you received.

I can think of two times when strong impressions (as what you related) came to me as this one did to you. I don't feel to relate them here and now, but the first time, I ignored the prompting, and the second time I followed it. It became very clear (in the 2nd case) that it was from God, and it had a wonderful outcome. I still don't know what would have happened if I had followed the first one.

Maybe I will tell a little about the first one, since it is not so personal in nature.

I was in Canada, on the great plains traveling down a long straight highway. There was a huge thunderhead out in front of us, we could see it building, and we could see the lightning flash from time to time. It was mid day, but still partly dark, as it sometimes is in a storm. Because of the darkness before us, I could see the flashing lights from a long way off. I didn't think much of it at first - the Royal Canadian Mounted Police often stop people for traffic violations.

As we got closer, I could see it was the scent of an accident. It looked a rollover involving a single car. The police were there, and an ambulance. They were loading someone from the damaged vehicle into the ambulance. I felt a strong impression "you need to stop."
I drove on, and it came again as we passed the scene, and again as we were beyond it. I was young then, and not so used to these things. I never did stop, but kept going.

I told myself that there was nothing I could have done, and I went over it again and again. It made no sense to me at all that I should stop. OF course, (as I look back from many l years later) there are many things that it could have been.
It could have been someone from my home town, that needed me to notify their family. It could have been lots of things, and I suppose someday, I will understand. I wish now I would have stopped then, but I can't go back.

The next incident happened just a few weeks later, and by then I had made the decision that I would not ignore that kind of feeling again. I really don't want to tell it on a public forum, but it turned out for good.

If you don't know what God meant for you to do when he told you that day, you can find out. He continues to honor the promise he made many years ago when he said "seek, and ye shall find, ask, and it shall be given to you."

Quote
When you understand that the Atonement is real, you begin to discover great healing power.
Expand, please...-)


Were my W and I to visit your home, I think we could spend a number of hours on this one alone. How do I put all of this into words? It's the product of what I have learned through prayer, and meditation over the course of my life. I could tell you stories, and I could quote many other scriptures - but lets see if we can reduce it down some. I am going to quote from memory, and I can't remember chapter and verse, so forgive me, but I don't have the time for that now. I think they will be familiar to you anyway, even if I don't get them word for word.

Ok, I changed my mind already - I want to quote from Isaiah, and I know I can't remember it all.
From Isaiah 53
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

And also, some of the other ones, from memory.
"Come unto me all ye that labor, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
"My yoke is easy, and my burden is light"
"In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have over come the world."

There are many more, but read these again. Think of the words that were used, and pause for feelings that come to you. Listen with your heart, and your spiritual sense, and tell me what you feel.

After many years of prayer, and much thought, I have come to believe that the atonement did more than more than take away the sin of those who accept him as their savior.

I don't claim to understand why exactly it was necessary. I do know that it happened, and that it is real. I believe he also experienced all of the things that any of us will experience, an that he understands, and is able to help because he has been there, and there is nothing that we can go through that he hasn't already been through, and experienced. and conquered. I believe he does understand, and I know he has that power to help, for I have experienced that help for myself.


Well, I have always felt that Jesus was right there with me, like he was sitting on the bed next to me with an arm around my shoulders. I think I feel a little braver - just a little. Partly I think

I believe he is much more involved in our lives than we sometimes think. I believe he intercedes directly when it is best, but that he often uses others to help us, because it is good for us to help, and be helped.

Ah, so much more to say, but I need to go for now.
I hope you are feeling well today.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 11/05/07 11:40 PM
Thank you.

I smiled a lot reading this. Lots to meditate on. I won't be able to get back to you for a few days. I am having an MRI scan on both hips and my spine on Wednesday. (Only took 18 months!) I'm also meeting with a priest in the morning on Wednesday. Then I see my counselor on Thursday afternoon. I am scared of what will show up on the MRI scan, to tell you the truth. I'm sitting here trying (and thankfully failing, I think) to provoke a Babinski's Reflex in my toes....But you know, nowhere else to go but into the scanner and hope for the best.-)

I'll be back.....
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 11/06/07 09:29 PM
Per the MRI....
I sincerely hope and pray that you can find the root of the pain, and that it can be taken care of.

Will also be interested in hearing how it goes with both the Priest, and the counselor.

I'm sitting here trying (and thankfully failing, I think) to provoke a Babinski's Reflex in my toes....

I didn't know what that was, so I looked it up. It occurs to me that you must be worried. I thought about that some...... and I would guess that it's not so much for yourself, but you want to be able to see your sons grown, and married. I would guess you want to see your grandchildren, and have them know their grandmother, and benefit from her experiences.

Remember that God makes no mistakes. He will either help, or he will not, but either way, it will be for the best.

You are very kind to give me more time to finish. I'll be back too.......

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 11/09/07 12:44 AM
Greetings !!
What a lovely day today, in so many ways. I know from experience that it isn't as bad as I sometimes think. Things usually work out. If we put our trust in God, and if we do our best. If we move forward in faith, and if we have confidence, he helps us. I know he hears our prayers.

I remember a lot of things that I hear over the years. Once someone told me that having faith in God, and believing in our future was like walking into a dark room. We take a few steps in, and it looks so dark. We hesitate, and we slow down, or stop. After a while, we either get used to the dim light, and are able to walk further, or God illuminates our way, and we can see to take a few more steps. The trouble is that we want the flood lights on, when we usually get only a dim light for a few steps.
The trick is to keep taking steps, and trust the light will be there when we need it. One of the reasons I continue to encourage, is that I walk the same walk, in the same dim light. We often think of others as having few, or no troubles, and sometimes we wish we could have some of the "good" life we think others live. This world doesn't work that way. Everyone has their own cross to bear. It's different for each of us, and some of them are not so visible as others are. When I think of this, it helps keep things in perspective (for me.) It also helps to remember that HE made it, and he said "Come, follow me." He has a more clear vision than I do, and it becomes easier for me to follow him every day.

I took the time to read most of this thread over again. It confirmed my thoughts on how you are doing. I see improvement. I see less fear, and more confidence.

I really hope your counselor will help you with this part of your life. Especially this. (Confidence)
If one reads for very long on MB, one sees that having a spouse stray often shakes our self confidence profoundly.

Some never get it back.
I have a personal friend (Local, not on MB) who has been affected this way. He has struggles for more than 20 years.
You have great talent, and ability, but you don't always trust yourself.

As I said, reading back over this thread confirmed some things to me. When someone comes into my office, (speaking of my church responsibilities) and asks for help, I have to do an assessment. I have to find out if they really want to change.
If they are living their life so that God can help them.
If they have done, and are doing all that they can do on their own.......
Are they are willing to do whatever is necessary to overcome the problem they are struggling with - for instance, if they are having a problem with alcohol addiction, are they willing to go to AA?

Were I to assess how you are doing, I would answer yes to all of these.

You might say that you don't do near enough. You see your weaknesses, but please give yourself credit where credit is due. It is good for us to understand where we need to improve, and work for improvement. It is also good for us to recognize what we have done well, so we can find strength to continue. I hope you find strength.


I am starting to acknowledge that I am unhappy because H doesn't meet my needs, for whatever reason, I have to admit that maybe he isn't the right person to meet my needs and I need to stop resenting him for it.............

That is a very healthy attitude. I mean, what else can you do really, if you stay? I would expect that it will be difficult, and it won't be 100% all day every day, but it's a good start.

We spoke earlier about forgiveness. Forgiveness will be a great help to you, and will add greatly to your peace of mind. It will make it easier for you to "hear" what God wants you to do.


I just read Harley's latest newsletter about expectations in marriage - I expected that he would give me affection, that he would protect me and care for me...yes, I did expect that, strangely enough, and no, in all counts, he has not fulfilled my expectations. But that doesn't make him a bad person - you could easily judge him badly, but that would ignore all the times he tries hard to step up to the plate, which he does. I guess I think he has a few strikes against him because of his background and whatever it is he is keeping to himself, but I have to let go of resenting him for letting me down and just let it go.

Again, based on what I have seen........ most of us let our spouse down in many ways. If there were no forgiveness, there would be few intact marriages. We have a right to expect that our needs will be met. That's why we marry. I still have hope for him, because of your faith. God can, and does soften hearts.

It's just really hard for me to face up to the possibility of eventually having to say goodbye. It's easier to end a marriage when you are full of anger and self-righteousness. It's easy to throw someone out who has done the dirty on you. It's a lot harder to quietly agree that what you committed the rest of your life to is a failure for both of you and everything you invested yourself in is just a hollow shell. I guess it wouldn't be hard if I didn't believe marriage is for life. If I thought it was OK to cut your losses and just try again, I wouldn't find it so hard, but I just don't feel that way....so it really feels to me like my life as a married woman is over for good, which feels pretty hopeless. (And you said 'be of good cheer'! - well, I know what you mean, and I think these thoughts are just things I have to work through...)

These feelings are conflicting - it may be over..... but be of good cheer.
I realize you understand with your mind.
When your heart catches up, your heart will know too, and you will be able to be of good cheer anyway.
Your words here are powerful. I have no direct experience to use to encourage you, except to say that I know God, and I know he can turn every trial into good for us. I don't say it lightly, and I don't say it because I believe the theory. I say it because I have lived it, and I know it. I want you to know it too.

By now you have been into the heart of the machine (MRI) - and lived to tell about it. From my own experience, they usually don't have any information to give you for at least a week - sometimes longer. So you wait, and we wait too if we want to know what the news is.
I'll just have to spend my time pestering you about your conversations with your Priest, and counselor. ;-)

I am glad your studies are seeming to be more interesting these days. That was very good news. I encourage you to continue. I think it will help boost your self confidence as much as it will help in other ways.

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As far as gardens go - the fall green beans are almost ready for the first picking. I take out the determinate tomatoes, and leave the indeterminate ones, and I put beans in place of the determanites.
You'll have to educate me in what this means...my tomatoes are always rubbish...maybe I'm doing it wrong....


I am not a pro, but I learned something about tomatoes recently. Determinate tomatoes produce one big crop, then just take up space. Good for caning - poor for having table tomatoes all summer. Roma tomatoes are of this variety (tomato sauce, ketchup.)
Indeterminate tomatoes don't produce as heavy a crop, but they continue to produce until they freeze in the fall. Good for table tomatoes, salads, sandwiches, and so on. Can also be canned if needed, but not as heavy a crop comes all at once.

I used to grow whatever, based on which ones claimed to do well in the heat. I didn't understand why they would grow a wonderful crop at first, then nothing for the rest of the summer.
Now I plant determinate to can, (we make spaghetti sauce and other things, as well as canning whole tomatoes.) When these have finished producing, I take them out, leaving a few of the other type for table tomatoes, and plant something in their place that will be of some good. This year it was green beans.

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We can't really grow Salad greens very well, because it freezes in the winter, and it is to hot in the summer. Spring and fall don't seem long enough. I have tried lettuce, but never had success. I suppose one has to make do with what one has, not what one wishes for. That seems to be true with both gardens, and life.
I know lettuce has to be watered a lot, otherwise it will bolt in the heat. Also, you might be able to grow different types of lettuce, something more sturdy, like Cos lettuce. (?) It freezes here too, and I think the only greens that grow through that are the beet greens and Chinese mustard greens, and radicchio - you can cover things with plastic cloches if you want to take the trouble (do you have those? Like little portable plastic tents - they keep the frost off - or you can grow things in a "cold frame" - this is easy to make - often made with old windows or a square of plexiglass - make a wooden frame (like a box), then cover it with the window or the plexiglass - you grow the lettuce inside it - the glass acts as a mini-greenhouse and protects the plants inside from frost - you lift the cover every day with a stick to allow it to breathe, but lower the glass at night, like putting the plants to bed....


A friend of mine works in a door and window shop. He got me some big sliding door panes in the frames, and I made a cold frame with them. After one season, I decided it was too much work to move it out, and then back in place for the results I got.
If we had more room and I could leave it year round, it would be of more use to me.

Garden Photo Link
We have a walk out basement, this is taken from the upper deck.
http://www.outdooroutlet.com/SS/garden/garden.jpg


On your telling H that you were counseling.
...I don't think H has ever been much interested in me emotionally at all....he just wanted someone he could live with without too much trouble...in fact, when OS was 5 months old, he actuallly said this to me...we were having a candlelit supper before I went to the States to take OS back to meet his American family, and I jokingly asked H why he married me, thinking he would say something romantic - I was teasing him. He got very thoughtful and then said "Well, I guess I felt I wasn't so emotionally entangled with you that I couldn't live with you." It was the way he said it and the way he kind of gazed at me, like that was the real truth he had let slip out and he didn't think there was anything wrong with approaching life like that....it was so NOT like anything I had ever heard from anyone before that I was dumfounded...I didn't know what to say,................

Don't be so sure. Remember that he was not raised to feel what you were raised to feel, and express. His answer had to be consistent with the rest of his experiences. Don't be so sure he was never interested. Look to God for an answer here, he knows what you and I do not know.


I have forgotten what I did say, just that I tried to "lighten up" the mood, or explore it a little more in a light-hearted way, but letting it sink in that I thought I had heard him tell me he didn't really have any emotional feelings for me, certainly wasn't "in love" with me when he married me and that he married me because he thought I would "do", without being a lot of trouble to him. This was one of those times when I saw that "other person" come out...this is the person who has had the affairs, who refuses to engage with me, who is unpleasant and unfeeling towards me. It was like getting a peep under the shades...and seeing what H normally keeps hidden....

Perhaps that is the real H, perhaps not. I hesitate to comment, because I don't want to give false hope.

I have typed about 20 things in this space, and none of them sound good at all. I don't know what to tell you, but I know God can fix things that we can't fix. The things he said are consistent with his self image, but they may not be the truth.

Those words put a tremendous doubt into my soul about our marriage.

That would be natural, (to doubt) but remember, you have read a lot on MB, and you know that nearly every one involved in an A makes these same kind of statements, and often they are not true. He seems to have had this mindset for a long, long time.

I don't know where they came from, or why, or whether he still feels that way. I confronted him with them after he had EA2, after EA2 was over, and I asked him again why he married me and why he would have said that...he said he didn't know, that that was a weird thing to say and that he guessed he married me because he loved me....he HAS shown love to me, so I guess the best I can say about my marriage is that his feelings for me seem to have been ambivalent. As to why that is, I don't know because he won't say.

He seems to be treating you the way he was treated as a baby. It seems to fit. The problem I see is that he refuses all help to learn another way.

Love for him seems to be real only in the early stages when the "love" drugs are being pumped into his system. That would fit the three EA's.

I don't know that it changes any thing though, even if it's true.

Although he projects a lot of his own faults on to me, in the past year, he seems to have "settled" a little, and he has also said that he doesn't believe it will ever get any better...that came about when I told him months ago that I was going to talk to a priest, and that I had been to a priest 2 years ago, when I first discovered EA3, and that the priest had told me that if I was single, he would recommend to me that I leave today, but since I had children, I should try to stay with it for as long as I could stand it for the sake of the children...this priest had a lot of experience in marital counseling and he said that he had to tell me that in the cases of repeat infidelity, it rarely ever got any better....I told H this was the advice I had received from this priest and I asked him what he thought about me having received this advice...he just said softly "I think he is probably right"...

So you see that H is living here with me having given up on being a faithful husband as well....also, he has acknowledged that he is to blame, and he doesn't believe he can change, or IT will change, mainly because he resists any discussion on marriage at all - in other words, he consciously refuses to turn his mind to improving himself or his marriage - he wants only to live and work....to carry on with his jobs and do the best he can at that, because that's all he's interested in anyway - that and his sons...


So it remains for you to understand what God meant when he communicated to you to separate yourself. You may already be there - but you need to know. If you feel you do know, and are doing fine, then continue. If you doubt, and want to know for sure, I recommend fasting and prayer. (see Matt, 17:19)

In the eyes of the Church, this is not a marriage...it is a living arrangement...it is not a marriage if the husband decides he can't be faithful....the DESIRE to be faithful, even if you fail at that, is an essential component of marriage, according to the Church....my H does not have that desire, and if he married me without making that commitment, in other words, if the words he uttered were hollow because he didn't really believe them, then we don't have a marriage...it seems to me that that is a possiblity, given those words that H said to me when OS was 5 months old....

So this is why I am confused...because I have been bounced around by his on/off feelings for me for the last 20 years. It is true that I have let this happen to me, which upsets me, but it is also true that I loved him and my promises were not hollow. The only alternative was to leave him, and I didn't think that was part of the deal when I got married.


Did I ever recommend the story of Esther to you? I think it would be a good read, and of value to you. I know you read the bible, but a review of that Old Testament book may be of use to you.

And in closing......... You said in August that you were helping your sister with a family crisis, and that she had ordered "LoveBusters." I think that you said a little later that BIL was reading it, and had commented. Is there good news on that front? Was it a help to them?

I know you read it also. I hope it was of value.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 11/13/07 12:29 AM
Thank you so much! I want to reply to a lot of the things you said to me, and I enjoyed seeing the picture of your garden...I will have to post a picture of mine!

First I have to say that I did not get the scan, and it has had to be rescheduled for 19 Nov. When I set off down the road to drive the 20 miles to the hospital 2 lane), the road was completely blocked....a serious accident and no-one getting through...so I had to turn around and go back....one man was seriously injured but his injuries were not life-threatening, thank goodness....I was very upset, though and cried all the way home, couldn't speak when I got home, and I was very grateful to H, who leapt into action, instantly called the hospital to tell them I couldn't make it, and calmed me down, made a lot of reassuring noises at me and generally acted exactly as I needed him to....I gave him a big hug later and thanked him for helping me....it's been a long time since H was there for me, and it reminded me of why I fell in love with him, because he also had this side to him a lot before....since then, I have felt better about H and have tried to show it....

Second, something has happened back home that has to do with my Dad. I won't be able to talk about this, sadly, because I don't want to discuss this on the internet. I love my Dad, and I am sad that his problems have so badly affected the lives of his family. My sister and I have been helping each other, and I am so grateful that we are so close. Sometimes you don't find out that things are meant to be a certain way until much later....although what has happened is very upsetting for us, both of us had the same experience this Sunday during church...we both felt that we were right where we were supposed to be, a confirmation that we have been living our lives the way we should, and a deep sense of peace and validation of our choice to follow Christ. I was baptized in 1982, and became a Catholic in 1984. None of my family except my BIL were practising Christians then. I moved to England in 1989. I don't remember when it was - but it had to be before 1993, but one Easter, I remember thinking, it's ridiculous you standing here in this Church and not praying for your own family, because I had always just accepted that my family were not Christian and were not likely to ever change, and I could live with that...well, on that evening, I started praying for the conversion of my family. The next day, Easter Sunday, my sister called me to wish me a Happy Easter, and she told me she had had a conversion experience the night before during Mass (where she sang in the choir as a paid soloist) - she said she was singing, when she suddenly sensed that God was calling her to come to Him...she said she could smell something sweet, like a heavenly fragrance, just for a minute, so strong that she was almost knocked backwards into her seat...she said she was overwhelmed by this and went to the priest after Mass and asked to be accepted on to the RCIA programme for the coming year. I was stunned when she told me....she was stunned when I told her I had started praying for the conversion of my family on that same night....why I have ever continued to doubt after that I don't know...because I am just so hard-headed I guess....my sister was baptized and confirmed the following Easter....after that, my stepmother converted...she started going to Mass at her local church and met a deacon who was Jewish (!)...I had mixed feelings about that, especially when she got him to bless her and my dad's marriage....she isn't an orthodox Christian, but I am not here to judge her faith....her oldest and best friend is a lifelong evangelical Christian...and after all, my stepmother lives with my Dad, which would put a strain on the most dedicated Christian....then, when my brother was dying, we asked him if he wanted to be baptized...we talked this over with the priests at both our churches, who recommended that my sister baptize him, since to be baptized by a priest would probably frighten him. My sister could not get out of a pilgrimage to Lourdes, where she was employed to sing for a group, while he was in hospital....I was afraid he would die during the days she was gone, but he didn't...she brought back a tiny vial of holy water from Lourdes, and baptized him with that when she came back. My Mom insisted that from then on, in the last 3 weeks of his life, he showed no more sign of his schizophrenia...it may be that he was too weak to be much trouble by then, but before that he was clearly delusional and difficult for the nurses to handle....I'm saying all this because it is now, when things are once again tough in my family because of Dad, that here we are, 15 years later, and both my sister and I have the deep feeling that we are right where we are supposed to be...putting our faith in our Father in Heaven....because of that, I am able to pray for my Dad, too...God really does work in mysterious ways....look! There YOU are....helping so many people here....

I know I am sounding cryptic, but all I can say is that I am deeply grateful for the faith and witness you have shared....I have the feeling that I will be able to start letting go of some things now....I am very tired now, but I WILL be back....

I will look at Esther....

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 11/14/07 05:49 PM
So sorry that your tests are delayed. It can be very difficult to wait......... when you need relief. Glad your H helped you. I vote that he continue to help.
These medical problems can be a big drain on our strength. I would guess that this may be the primary reason you are so tired these days. Coping with constant pain drains one's energy. Do you have a new date and time yet for the tests?

Whatever it is with your father, we'll pray for him..... for all of you.

Is your sisters family doing OK these days? Is she OK?
Hopefully she doesn't take too much of this on herself.

....... here we are, 15 years later, and both my sister and I have the deep feeling that we are right where we are supposed to be...putting our faith in our Father in Heaven...........

If that is where your faith is, I believe you will make it just fine.

Prayers continue.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 11/18/07 01:07 AM
Thank you, ss -

Yes I think the pain is a big reason why I am so tired - it is a constant pain and except for a brief respite in June-July, it has been never-ending - I have been on painkillers 3 times a day for the last 18 months. Some nights it wakes me up. I think it was worse last year, though, so maybe it is something that can be helped. I think physiotherapy made it worse. My new scan appointment is Monday - day after tomorrow. I am guessing it will take about a week to get the results. Thank you for praying for me.

I don't know what to say about my dad - you know a lot about him already - he's put his family through way too much. It's hard to understand why we all still love him. We did say that it was better for me (and for my sister) to keep some distance between us and I think that is sensible. I think he is more of a danger to himself than to anyone else, and his sense of flouting other people's morals is what lands him in trouble. I will continue to pray for him, that's all I can do.

My sister is doing OK - things in her family are improving now. I am grateful for having found MB as I have been able to help them in some small way by getting them to read "Love Busters" and "HNHN". All the things I have tried to take on board I have been able to use to help my sister, even though I haven't been able to be successful with my own H. My sister is my rock. She is the only person in my life that I trust 110%. I really don't know what I would do without her.

My H is up and down again. Ever since he helped me out, things were better. Couldn't last, though - he found a way to ruin it all last night by using a conversation about manners to have a go at me. He really does destroy any potential intimacy or affection that threatens to arise between us. I just think my H has some serious personal issues that are beyond MB principles or anything I can do for him. When I think back, although he was always difficult, he did pretty much go "off the rails" 6 or so years ago - that was when he got into a serious conflict at work. It struck me last night that he has never been the same since. Maybe I'm deluding myself, but it's as if he suffered some kind of defeat then at work, and ever since, it seems like he is taking out his anger and resentment on me - he can't place his anger where it belongs, or get rid of it, and he has turned it on me.

I'm trying to deal with the question of why I put up with it, why I haven't found the strength to leave him, or to take care of myself without him, and that's what I'm doing in counselling. I'm also starting to admit to myself that I've been through a lot in my life, and I don't have to make light of it, or pretend that it didn't hurt me. I have started trying to learn to draw and I'm enjoying that. It takes my mind off things. Today was a cold day. All the leaves fell in the night, so the boys and I spent some time raking leaves and bagging them up today....winter's coming.

Time to sleep.
LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 11/20/07 09:36 PM
I'm also starting to admit to myself that I've been through a lot in my life, and I don't have to make light of it, or pretend that it didn't hurt me.

Interesting............ and important to understand.
Must come before healing comes. Your counselor sounds good. Or are you doing this part on your own?

I would ask how your tests went, but they are probably the same any where. Never fun, and always draining. We just hope good comes of it.

Yes I think the pain is a big reason why I am so tired - it is a constant pain and except for a brief respite in June-July, it has been never-ending - I have been on painkillers 3 times a day for the last 18 months.

I thought about this one for a while. Having been through many suguries, and knowing how it is to take pain killers (I don't like what it does to my mind, so I resist taking them).... Well, I understand how it is. Depressing kind of sums it up, but it doesn't describe it accurately.

Enjoyed reading about your relationship with your sister. Makes me feel better. I may not worry as much now. <grin>

Sorry about your dad. It hurts more when it's someone close.

Closing thoughts....
I can't wait to see what you and your counselor come up with these next few months. I am excited for you.
Maybe excited isn't the right way to say it

I expect good things.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 11/22/07 11:40 PM
Just wanted to wish you and all your family a happy Thanksgiving.

Although its hard to celebrate here because its a work day for everyone, I made a special effort with dinner - roast chicken, yams, leeks and apple pie for dessert - very American. H was more friendly tonight and chose some American music for background, also sat with me after dinner and engaged in some conversation about his students, and about OS, whose History teacher told H OS is doing very well at school. Good to hear that.

Had a good counselling appt today, for the first time I didn't cry!-) Also got some different painkillers, which hopefully will help. Yes, the painkiller thing does bother me, because I have rarely taken them in my life, I don't get headaches, and so rarely need anything. This is not like me at all. But - I get my results in a couple of weeks - have to wait, but at least I finally got the scan done, so I have to look at the positives.

Wishing you all a good Thanksgiving,
LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 11/23/07 09:58 PM
Thank you, that was so kind of you to wish us well.

To be honest, I didn't know if you would be celebrating Thanksgiving, and I didn't know if it would be good to remind you. Not because you wouldn't be thankful........

When I lived in Canada, I tried to immerse my self in the culture, and I celebrated their Thanksgiving in Oct, and not the US one in Nov. I wondered how you were doing living in the UK. So anyway, I didn't know if it was a good thing for you, or if it made you homesick. Come to think of it, I don't even know if the UK has anything like thanksgiving. You can tell me though if you want, and maybe I can learn something.

The news is good this time. I keep cheering for your H, and hope that he will respond it ways you need him to. I know many wonderful ladies, who, if they were treated well, would make their husbands among the most happy men on earth. I count you in that group. My own W is also. She is devoted to me, and will do almost anything for me as long as I care for her, and protect her.


Had a good counselling appt today, for the first time I didn't cry!-)

Oh, that sounds good. It could mean lots of things, but I'll take it to mean that you are getting the help you need, and working through things well.

Also got some different painkillers, which hopefully will help. Yes, the painkiller thing does bother me, because I have rarely taken them in my life, I don't get headaches, and so rarely need anything. This is not like me at all.
When you told me how long you had been taking something for your back....... and knowing how those things can affect a person......... I asked God to help you find a cure.

But - I get my results in a couple of weeks - have to wait, but at least I finally got the scan done, so I have to look at the positives.

I hate waiting for those things to come back. I've broken both my arms, and one leg, and had my appendix out, and my tonsels out..... and ..... I should probably quit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I know how it is though. Hospitals are not my favorite place, even though they have helped me a great deal. I really hope you find a solution, and will continue the prayers.

Have a wonderful weekend !!

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 12/04/07 12:23 AM
Thanks so much for your good wishes. Here it is December already!

It is getting hard to get up in the morning, and if I stay up too late, I can't get to sleep, so....I'm trying, but it's difficult....the new painkillers are a tiny bit better than the former, but still not much good. I got my test results back today - the good news is that everything looks normal, which is something of a relief, but also extremely frustrating -- why am I in so much pain? Today I could hardly sit down, and my feet are going numb by the end of the day....I talked to my doctor on the phone and agreed that since the MRI looks normal, the next move is to go to a chiropractor or an osteopath and get "twisted" - perhaps that will unpinch something - my S and BIL swear by it...also I plan on going to get some physiotherapy from the local cricket ground - well, they are top class, and I figure if they can put international cricket players back together again, they should be able to do something with me....it's worth seeing what they will say....

I think my counselling sessions are starting to be helpful...I have been rearranging "my" room - moved the bed around and fixed up some bookshelves for my books for the first time since I have lived in this house, which is part of trying to "rebuild", "reestablish" my own sense of self. My H has not come up here and hasn't even seen it. Not interested.

When I was last on, lurking, I read a few threads on "serial cheaters" - something someone said struck me - that she couldn't stay with her H without having her "exit strategy" worked out. That hit home because I realized I was feeling depressed because I had lost track of my "exit strategy" - although I do not plan on divorcing my H or leaving my children (ever), I still need an exit strategy. That's what I am trying to get my head around now, and it helps me feel better....

I just wanted to say hi and say I'm sorry I haven't come back to post....I don't post from work anymore, so that generally leaves late at night when I am really tired....just wanted to say thank you, and thank you for your prayers....will touch base again soon...

LIR
Posted By: believer Re: Calling still seeking... - 12/04/07 01:28 AM
Have you been checked out for fibromyalgia?
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 12/04/07 11:35 PM
Hi believer - thanks for dropping by! No, I don't think I have been. What is that? How do they investigate?

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 12/05/07 12:18 AM
fibromyalgia
It doesn't sound very good, but I have not heard of it at all.

Hi LIR, I hope you get enough sleep these days, but for some reason I doubt it. (SS smiles)

Random thoughts from the last few days about your situation, and other things .....

Did you ever write that letter that FIL wanted you to write?

It would be interesting to listen in on your counseling sessions. I suspect I could learn a great deal.

Wondering how your boys are doing this school year, and what their worried are. One of my daughters had a melt down last week. I think she is OK now, but her worries and fears are valid, and she needs to work through it just like we adults need to work through our problems. I suspect the solutions to both hers, and ours are simple to God, but not always to us.

Our Garden had a hard freeze the day before thanksgiving. Just the winter garden left now, the summer one is history.

I know of several people who had back problems for years, and now go to the chiropractor about once a month and seem to be fine. I have no idea what it was, or what he does for them, I just hear them talking about it sometimes.

I just wanted to say hi and say I'm sorry I haven't come back to post

Always do what is best. I think now that you are in counseling, sleep is probably more important than the help you get here as far as your overall health. Don't take that wrong, I enjoy this exchange....... but I worry about you getting enough rest. Please take care, and get the rest you need. Stress can really harm us if we don't give our bodies and spirits what they need to cope with it.
This........ from experience.

If it snowed 10 ft (in 24 hours) at your house, and you couldn't get out for a few weeks, what would you wish you had more of to get you through the experience?

And finally -
One of our daughters had her 2nd child yesterday. It's a girl 7lb, and 11 oz. Both baby, and mother are fine. This is our 8th grandchild, and it quite enjoyable.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 12/21/07 11:23 PM
I probably won't be on much over the weekend, and who knows about Monday the 24th.

So -

Wishing you a Merry Christmas, and may you reach your goals for the new year. I so hope that God will bless you with the help you need.

I shouldn't ask, but I usually do.....
Were you ever able to read the Book of Esther?

I trust you and the boys are well. I really hope H is well also.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 12/25/07 11:22 AM
Quote
Hi LIR, I hope you get enough sleep these days, but for some reason I doubt it. (SS smiles)

You're right! I never get enough sleep, which I know is not good for me. I brought this up with my counselor this week, in fact - I have to discipline myself to NOT go on the computer and answer e-mails after 10pm - since I get up at 6-6:30 every morning, this means that I invariably do not put the light out until past midnight - the pain I suffer gets better if I have 8 hours of sleep - so I really need to start taking care of myself....that's one of the reasons I have not posted....(sad face) - but I am struggling with myself on this one!

Quote
Did you ever write that letter that FIL wanted you to write?

No, I didn't. Something stops me - I don't feel it would be truthful of me to just write to my H that I was willing to let bygones be bygones....I can't say it and mean it. I feel I have already done that twice (with his two EAs), and the result was that he had another EA which turned PA, so I don't feel that meant anything to him. In some ways, I have just let my H go....I can forgive him, but I can't rebuild the feelings I once had for him. I don't feel it is possible to ever trust him again because I see him differently - it is like his actions have made him a different person than the one I thought he was. I can still love him, but I cannot be "in love" with someone I don't feel I can trust or rely on, or who I am afraid of. My FIL is very kind to me on the phone - he expresses his concern about my health and well-being - he just turned 90. I am sure he does not approve of my H's actions, but he also is aware that he cannot control him any more than I can. H needs help, but he needs to seek that help for himself. My H does not "do" emotion. That does not mean he does not feel. He is like a man trapped in his cultural upbringing (stiff upper lip, uncomfortable with affection) who can't find a way out. One counselor I talked to in the past said he had encountered other men who had gone through the British boarding school system of the past who were incapable of expressing or sharing emotion. It is not uncommon in the UK at a certain level, at a certain age-group, and I am culturally unequipped to deal with it - for my H, it may be that I am just too much "in your face" and I appear to him to be emotionally demanding - that is one explanation. FIL is like this, too - H follows the pattern set by him....as far as I know, though, FIL was faithful.....but he is also notoriously difficult within the family. Having said that, H seems to be slightly steadier just lately....he has warmed up ever so slightly and has put a lot of effort into Christmas this year. I even managed to get Christmas cards written to all my family, which I didn't manage last year. So I am still mulling this one over....-)

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It would be interesting to listen in on your counseling sessions. I suspect I could learn a great deal.
I am starting to find my counselling sessions really helpful. I have had some very depressed days - hard days - and I expect I will have more, but I am still going on....for some reason, I have been feeling reasonably good the last couple of weeks, although I am feeling anxious about home...Christmas is here and my dad is travelling down to see the family....he will be with my sister on Xmas day - I told her she should try to avoid any confrontations on that day - I think it will be difficult for her....and I don't know what post-Christmas will bring for all of us - I am worried about my R with my Dad, since he has been very supportive of me, and I do love him, although he has done some bad things in his life, that's for sure....-( I have talked about this with my counselor- I think that being in counselling is finally starting to help me - just having that one person there for me week in and week out is starting to help me feel a tiny bit more secure.

Quote
Wondering how your boys are doing this school year, and what their worried are. One of my daughters had a melt down last week. I think she is OK now, but her worries and fears are valid, and she needs to work through it just like we adults need to work through our problems. I suspect the solutions to both hers, and ours are simple to God, but not always to us.
I think my young one is mostly worried about being bullied, and about his very strict French teacher - but that is calming down now - he seems to be settling down and is more confident. Things are looking up for him. OS is suffering teenage angst and withdrawal, but I have got to the bottom of some of it - not enough chance to perform solo at school, which is extremely important to him (OS plays two instruments at a very high level, but is overshadowed by another pupil who is a competition winner) - so I have taken steps with both his instrument teachers to rectify this situation for next term - I suspect his academic performance will improve once this is sorted out.

Quote
I think now that you are in counseling, sleep is probably more important than the help you get here as far as your overall health. Don't take that wrong, I enjoy this exchange....... but I worry about you getting enough rest. Please take care, and get the rest you need. Stress can really harm us if we don't give our bodies and spirits what they need to cope with it.
This........ from experience.
Thank you! That's what I have been trying to do. Don't think I don't appreciate the help you have given me either. I am also aware that you are a very busy man and that there are many who rely on you. It would be nice, sometime in the future (when my life is perfect?-)) to be able to thank you in person.

Quote
If it snowed 10 ft (in 24 hours) at your house, and you couldn't get out for a few weeks, what would you wish you had more of to get you through the experience?
Ooooh...what a thought! I think I'd go crazy - chocolate! A treadmill to burn it off...a sauna...an indoor heated swimming pool? A girl can dream....

Quote
And finally -
One of our daughters had her 2nd child yesterday. It's a girl 7lb, and 11 oz. Both baby, and mother are fine. This is our 8th grandchild, and it quite enjoyable.
FAN-tas-tic! Always the best news in the world - "mother and baby are doing fine" - those are the best words in the language!! Congratulations all around. And I hope you have a very Merry Christmas.

P.S. I have read Esther - certain things "stuck out" - but I don't know if they were the ones you were hoping I would notice. Maybe after Christmas and all the fuss of the holidays when we both have more time we could both look at this...but only if/when it is convenient....
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 01/06/08 04:44 AM
Well, this may be what everyone is saying..... I sure hope you have a great 2008, and I hope your health improves..... and I hope your marriage becomes all that is should be, and that you want it to be. I could go on and on, and it's kind of the standard stuff that gets said, but I hope you feel hope behind the words.

It sounds like your sons have standard worries, but they are not standard to them. I few kind words, and a little encouragement go a long way, but I would guess they get that on a regular basis. Thought for a while about what you said about the boarding school experience. I would guess it can have a big effect. Note the use of the word "can."
I think it would have been very hard for me to go through that. Not sure how it would have changed me, but I don't think it would have been a help to me.

I read your comment on thanking me - you are very kind. I am sure we will meet in person someday. Perhaps in this life, perhaps in the next. As far as your life being perfect....... if we wait for that, it won't be this life then. ;-)

P.S. I have read Esther - certain things "stuck out" - but I don't know if they were the ones you were hoping I would notice. Maybe after Christmas and all the fuss of the holidays when we both have more time we could both look at this...but only if/when it is convenient....

Well, I hope you had lots of fun with the "fuss" of the holidays, and that you felt close to your boys, and were close to your H. I hope he made lots of LB deposits, and that you got some help from him that you really needed.

As far as Esther goes....
What struck me as being similar to you, and the reason I suggested it -
She was trying to do what was right. She didn't know what to do, but she wanted to do the right thing with all her heart. She looked at the situation, and thought it through. All the while she was praying, and thinking, and wondering. She knew God cared, and she trusted in him, but she never got any kind of direct revelation as to how to proceed. She went ahead anyway, doing what she thought was the best thing.

Notice that she enlisted the support of others in fasting and prayer. Fasting can be a physical aid to spiritual power. She used all the tools she had, and she went ahead, not knowing just how it would turn out.

Notice that even though she didn't know what would happen, she believed God would help.
Of course, things turned out well. I believe she had faith that no matter what happened, she needed to do the best she could, and leave the rest in God's hands.

It has always been a lesson to me on how to face the troubles that I face. I wanted you to take strength from her story, and I hope it helped. I think it is difficult to read her story, and not be touched, and lifted up if you face troubles in your own life (and who does not?)

How did things go with your sister, and your dad?


BTW, when I asked if you had written the letter FIL requested, it was for information only, as a kind of a measure of where you are with your H. I hope you didn't feel any kind of a judgement in the question.

I remember you said once you enjoyed getting real letters, and that email wasn't the same as holding the paper, and reading the words. I remembered when you said you got Christmas cards sent. We didn't send any this year, and I am sorry, but I am not good at it, and my W is not much better. I have to agree with you about "real" letters though, and I wanted to comment.

I hope you back improves.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 01/07/08 11:28 AM
Hello ss! Happy New Year! I hope you had a good holiday, too....I hope it was full of family time!

We did have a "good" holiday. No emotional upsets, it felt quite normal, except for the fact that my H and I don't sleep together and don't touch each other. In all other respects, we got on very well and had an enjoyable time. H and I exchanged gifts which pleased us both and shared a little hug in the kitchen, which was nice.

We went to three Christmas parties which we are normally invited to, and our friends (most of whom are aware of the problems we have had over the years because I talked to them when we were in heavy crisis) seemed genuinely glad to see both of us (H did not go to two of these parties in the last couple of years) - I saw my H behaving more "normally" in a social context - we used to have a social life with many friends who liked and accepted us a couple - our social life in these past five years, since H went "off the rails", has withered to nothing - we still smile and say hello to our friends when we meet in the street, but we don't get invited to dinner or parties and we don't have people over - our children have maintained their friendships and I see my women friends individually - H sees his friends individually, but our life as a couple socially has virtually ceased. This is very painful for me and I think it is isolating for our children, so it was interesting to me to see H decide to participate in the annual xmas parties - for the past few years he has avoided them - it made me wonder what space his head is in now.

H was helpful over the holidays - he got the tree, put it up, did the lights, took the boys xmas shopping (even though he had the flu - he wasn't well over the holiday, which gave me an opportunity to show that I was concerned about him, which I think he appreciated)...

He also showed some sign of wanting to please me this last week - our back fence has been down for 6 months - I REALLY want this fixed - it leaves our back yard open and vulnerable to thieves and I feel insecure with it down - he has been procrastinating for months about fixing it, and I don't want to nag - but I have dropped hints, like saying "is there any chance that we can find some way to fix the back fence soon? Perhaps we could hire someone to fix it if you don't have time?" So he has put two days into starting to fix it, and it seems the job is underway now....it's been a bit difficult for him apparently to sink the fenceposts, as there is concrete some inches down in a strategic spot - but he said he'd found a way around that yesterday - so well see - I hope it goes up soon....

I recently watched a lecture online on the Gresham College website by Raj Persaud, the psychiatrist, on the connection between mental illness and creativity - he says there is a very high connection - with fully 2/3 of published authors having experienced or currently experiencing major depressive illness, with poets having the highest proportion - 3/4. It was a very interesting discussion - i.e. very creative people are often depressed, yet they are still productive, they produce works of art. There are many people who have suffered depression who do not produce works of art, even though they may be "creative" - have creative ideas. I would put my H in the former category and me in the latter. I would like to shift myself into the former category!-) One of the things I found "reassuring" is that he said creative people and people who suffer from depression share a certain quality - that of "ruminating on their internal state" at length. This is a definite aspect to creativity, as well as a definite aspect of depression. Productively creative people feel it but still manage to produce - most depressed people do not produce, but it can explain why art and music therapy are therapeutic for depression. Now I know this sounds like a cop-out to a lot of the people on this forum, but my H IS very creative - what he does in his own artform is at the very highest standard which he has been recognized for - sometimes such people are "different and difficult". I do not think that his creativity exempts him from normal moral responsiblity, but I do think his creativity makes him a challenging person to be in a relationship with. A lot of the energy that "normal" people put into their family lives and their relationships, he puts into his creative work, which demands long hours of intense concentration. There is very little time left over for a relationship, so, if you follow Harley's theory of 15 hrs a week together, it is understandable that our romantic relationship has died - it is WHY so many creative people have serial relationships - they flame up and last a short time, but the major relationship a highly creative individual often has, is with himself and his own work, which leaves the spouse out in the cold. I know this sounds like an excuse, but it is not - it is a statement of fact from my experience. If my H spent 15 hours a week with me, he would not produce the work he does. What I don't excuse him for is for not spending ANY quality time with me. I don't excuse him for being TOTALLY selfish. But I understand that he can be, and I do think that his high level of creativity is a valid explanation for it. I would say that I honestly did not understand this or forsee this when we got married. The other interesting thing in the lecture was that he said evolutionary scientists explain creativity as a kind of "peacock's tail" - it is an enhancement - it's genetically attractive. And that there is some evidence to suggest this - people display their creativity when there is a chance of attracting the opposite sex. The interesting thing is that women only reveal their creativity if it looks like there is a possibility of a long-term relationship, while men display their creativity whenever there is any opportunity of any kind for any relationship! LOL! Which kind of fits. Certainly fits my H's behaviour of the past five years!

I appreciate your explanation of Esther. I will re-read it again with all of this in mind. Very much.

Christmas Day went OK with my sister and my dad. She did not choose to talk to him and and there were no confrontations. Neither of us have heard from him since. I expect he will be driving back home by now. My sister and I have been talking a lot about how to deal with this. We still don't know, but we are praying about it together. Your suggestions as to Esther's approach are very helpful. We both think my dad realizes on some level that he really screwed up his life and our lives, that he hurt us all by what he has done, but that since my mother died, he is just "soldiering on" with what is left of his life in the role he has chosen to play - drunken clown, which is sad. My dad is a lesson in what happens to the WS when he gets his own way and opts for the "affair marriage".

Believe me, I didn't think there was a shred of "judgement" when you asked me if I had written the letter to FIL. I hope I didn't sound like I thought that. I just figured you were asking for an update. It's a valid question and I answered honestly. It's one of those things I need to take the "Esther" approach with.....

Well, I hope this year brings you and your family good fortune! I go back to work the day after tomorrow....I do feel that I have had a decent rest, and I have got started on my coursework again. I have been working on my first assignment, which is a business plan for a new service, plus I have to write an essay - both assignments are due 12 Feb., so I have to really knuckle down here now!

Thank you for your suggestions. I will try to take them on board. I think fasting would do me good!

Take care,
LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 01/13/08 05:03 AM
Hello ss! Happy New Year! I hope you had a good holiday, too....I hope it was full of family time!

It was full of family time, and it was wonderful. (But it was too short!)

We did have a "good" holiday. No emotional upsets, it felt quite normal, except for the fact that my H and I don't sleep together and don't touch each other. In all other respects, we got on very well and had an enjoyable time. H and I exchanged gifts which pleased us both and shared a little hug in the kitchen, which was nice.

I recommend you share more hugs in the kitchen, and ........ every other room you can think of .

I also recommend you pretend his major need is "Admiration," and find things to admire about him. I am not recommending busy work, or praise for the sake of praise........ but every time he helps, give him praise. Every time he does something you would admire in anyone else, praise him for it.
Not things like "you are so wonderful," but things like "Thanks for carrying those things in for me, that was so kind of you. " Or perhaps " Thank you for that wonderful hug, I love getting hugs from you."


We went to three Christmas parties which we are normally invited to, and our friends (most of whom are aware of the problems we have had over the years because I talked to them when we were in heavy crisis) seemed genuinely glad to see both of us (H did not go to two of these parties in the last couple of years) - I saw my H behaving more "normally" in a social context - we used to have a social life with many friends who liked and accepted us a couple - our social life in these past five years, since H went "off the rails", has withered to nothing - we still smile and say hello to our friends when we meet in the street, but we don't get invited to dinner or parties and we don't have people over

I see this as a very good thing. He is not avoiding you now.
Before, he blamed you (internally, I don't know if he knew what he was doing) for all his problems. How can you be seen in public with someone that is the cause of all your problems? Have you talked with your counselor about this?
Just wondering out loud.... so to speak.

- our children have maintained their friendships and I see my women friends individually - H sees his friends individually, but our life as a couple socially has virtually ceased. This is very painful for me and I think it is isolating for our children, so it was interesting to me to see H decide to participate in the annual xmas parties - for the past few years he has avoided them - it made me wonder what space his head is in now.

What you do really will make a difference over time.
From Isaiah Chapter 52 -
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Now, that is speaking about preaching the Gospel, but it applies to those that look for the good in people, and speak often of it also. I think it will touch you when you read it. Maybe.......... maybe read it more than once. Tell me what you think. (SS smiles)

Time is short, it's time for us to have our evening family reading and prayer. I will just skim a few things on down.


I am really glad he helped with the tree, and now the fence. Let him know how much hit means.


I recently watched a lecture online on the Gresham College website by Raj Persaud, the psychiatrist, on the connection between mental illness and creativity -

Interesting reading.
I am not very creative. Oh well, my W loves me anyway. <grin>
I think it is good to learn as much as you can, one can never tell when it will be needed.

Remember though, that Jesus didn't say it was OK to ignore your family if you are creative - and for sure he didn't OK adultery for any reason. Learn, but made decisions based on what the Lord communicates to you. Both through scripture, and through other means.

I appreciate your explanation of Esther. I will re-read it again with all of this in mind. Very much.

Again, I don't claim to be a spiritual advisor to you, or have any special insight into what you need to hear, or read. I just share things that have helped me, and that I think may be of value to you .I hope it never feels like I am pushing.

Christmas Day went OK with my sister and my dad. She did not choose to talk to him and there were no confrontations. Neither of us have heard from him since. I expect he will be driving back home by now. My sister and I have been talking a lot about how to deal with this. We still don't know, but we are praying about it together. Your suggestions as to Esther's approach are very helpful.

Sometimes God makes it very plain to us what we should do. Other times, he does not. I have found that when he does not........... it doesn't mean he isn't listening, or that he doesn't care. It means he trusts us to do the right thing, and that we can and will learn and grow from doing it. I have noticed that he never makes mistakes with this. Never.

Now, there are some that he tries to touch, but they refuse to listen. I am not talking about that. I think you are trying hard, and I think he can get through if he needs to. Esther did all she could to make that part happen. I learned a lot from how she did it.


We both think my dad realizes on some level that he really screwed up his life and our lives, that he hurt us all by what he has done, but that since my mother died, he is just "soldiering on" with what is left of his life in the role he has chosen to play - drunken clown, which is sad. My dad is a lesson in what happens to the WS when he gets his own way and opts for the "affair marriage".

I am glad he has the two of you, and that you still try. He is a blessed man. I hope he "gets" it.

Believe me, I didn't think there was a shred of "judgment" when you asked me if I had written the letter to FIL. I hope I didn't sound like I thought that. I just figured you were asking for an update. It's a valid question and I answered honestly.

No, you didn't sound like it bothered you, but this is text, and it's difficult to know how it comes across. We can show concern, and love with expression........ that it is hard to show with written words. It is better for me to be over concerned about how things sound, and not have you wonder. At least, I think it is.


It's one of those things I need to take the "Esther" approach with.....

I agree. God knows things we do not know. He can guide us with these things. It often comes (to me anyway) as thoughts that come to me, and stay lots longer then they ought to. Finally (and I admit I am slow sometimes) it occurs to me that I really ought to do this, or that. Esther put herself in a position to more easily get the help she needed.



Well, I hope this year brings you and your family good fortune!

Yes, I would like to travel more. Perhaps to England - Wales. The land of my Ancestors..... and several good friends.

I go back to work the day after tomorrow....I do feel that I have had a decent rest, and I have got started on my coursework again. I have been working on my first assignment, which is a business plan for a new service, plus I have to write an essay - both assignments are due 12 Feb., so I have to really knuckle down here now!

I wish you well in your work. I believe you WILL do well.

Thank you for your suggestions. I will try to take them on board. I think fasting would do me good!

Be careful with it, and pray about it before, and during.
It does help, but this is a process. Keep that in mind also.

Sorry the last .......... was so short.

Have you gotten any more from the medical people that is helping with your back?

"See" you later.

SS

PS, I haven't been proof reading as I would like, please forgive any errors.
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 02/05/08 02:35 PM
Hello ss!
Long time no see! I'm sorry I haven't found the time to post. I hope you understand. I am just working very hard and never having enough time to get everything I need to get done done.....but I don't want you to think that I don't care that you have taken the time to check up on me.

I've had a busy month, with YS birthday mid-month, and OS birthday at the end of the month.....

I have tried to get some work started on the vegetable plot...so I have been up there a couple of times, did some weeding, started turning over the patch where I plan on putting in potatoes in March, and I managed to plant some rows of broad beans (like lima beans)....I am also thinking ahead and this weekend bought 3 bags of seed potatos and 2 bags of seed onions....the onions need to go in ASAP. It's still cold and wet here, though, which is why I am not outside today...-) Getting outside, and getting up there in the vegetable patch, where I work on my own, no-one around except me and the birds, really soothes me...I'm trying to pay attention to what does make me "feel" better....

I feel that my counselling sessions are going well. I am still getting to know my counselor, but I do feel that she is a person I can trust who has good instincts and is supportive in an empathetic way. What I am really doing with her is trying to rebuild myself, which is a very slow process, but she says it will take as long as it needs to take and there is no rush, so I feel reassured. I want to thank you for supporting me through the time it took me to find the strength to make the calls and find the right counselor.

The pain I am suffering has not gone away, but as of last week, seems to be slightly better. Since my MRI scan came out OK, and they haven't been able to find anything wrong with the tests they have done, they seem to have given up, and my doctor has referred me to the "Pain Clinic" at the hospital - where I will be able to get acupuncture, physiotherapy, and discuss pain relief....well, I will make what use of this that I think I can, but it seems strange to me to treat pain when you don't know what is causing it, so in frustration, last week (I was in a lot of pain) I decided it was ridiculous to take anti-inflammatory pain killers if they mask a pain you perhaps SHOULD be feeling, so I stopped taking the NSAIDs - and since then, it seems to be better. It still hurts, but not as bad - not that fierce burning pain. My doctor thinks my sciatic nerve is inflamed, and I am now wondering if the NSAIDs were making things worse. So I am staying off them, and taking a Tylenol type painkiller as and when I think I need it. I am just hoping it will slowly improve.....

Things with H are the same as usual, although I have tried to be more positive towards him....

I also recommend you pretend his major need is "Admiration," and find things to admire about him. I am not recommending busy work, or praise for the sake of praise........ but every time he helps, give him praise. Every time he does something you would admire in anyone else, praise him for it.

I had "switched off" completely to H after his affair, and even though he does not seem to want to reconcile with me, I am making a point of praising him for what he does well, especially when it is something I want or need him to do, to let him know how much I appreciate this - right now he is fixing our back fence - it is taking him a long time but he is doing a very good job, building a very sturdy fence which will be much better than the one that was there before. The thing about H is that whenever I praise him, he sabotages the effort by sparking a row...it's a pattern to our R which is "his stuff" and is part of the reason why our marriage has failed....

At least I try to see that when that happens, it is not my issue....and I feel that I can still praise him for the stuff he does well (I am sure there is stuff he does well that I miss, but I do try). I have also started touching and hugging him now and again, unexpectedly. I feel that just because he says he doesn't love me doesn't mean I shouldn't let him know he is a person worthy of love. When I have given him little hugs and pats, he seems embarassed, but he has hugged me back.

My feeling is that H just "put me away" - because I got older, because he wasn't "turned on" by me any more, because he got into internet porn for awhile (although he is not into that now), because he was tempted by other women who came on to him and his ego is so huge he thought he'd just take advantage of whatever...he gave into temptation because it was so easy with his work, because of the kind of person he is, and because he decided he didn't need to spend any time with me.....then he had to justify himself and decided it had to be my fault, because of who I was, because of the problems I had, because I wasn't the right person for him, because he had only thought he loved me when he didn't really.....basically, it was a decision he made.....he "lost track" of his love for me because he never gave me his undivided attention, and when it was gone, he "put me aside".....like any other couple, I think we could get it back, if we were to follow Harley's program of finding ways to spend 15 hours a week undivided attention with each other....I know that my unhappiness with him was down to my missing spending time with him.....I just don't think my H will do that.....or is able to do that Anyway, my feeling is that whatever H "decided", it shouldn't make me into an unloving person. I want to be the person I feel like being, in that I always had (mostly) good will in my heart towards others, including H, and I feel better when I express it, so if he has a problem with that, it's his problem.

I have also started working on my photo album again. I was making a beautiful photo album when my mum died....3 1/2 years ago now, and I haven't been able to pick up and start on it again, because I had got to the part of her 80th birthday party, and I couldn't bring myself to look at the pictures and set them in the album....I have talked to my sister about it and she told me it took her 2 years before she could do that part of her album...but I have started doing it now because I want to....I have reached the point where I want to see her smiling face and to have something beautiful to remember those happy times, so I am now really enjoying starting it again and working on those pages.....I think that's a good sign for me...-)

What you do really will make a difference over time.
From Isaiah Chapter 52 -
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Now, that is speaking about preaching the Gospel, but it applies to those that look for the good in people, and speak often of it also. I think it will touch you when you read it. Maybe.......... maybe read it more than once. Tell me what you think. (SS smiles)


I hear you!-) Thanks for praising the good in me when I didn't feel very good about myself. I think when you go though this kind of marriage breakdown, the devil works hard to foster bitterness within your soul. I know it is hard (still) for me to resist that, which is one reason why I try to be kind to H. Our priest last week said something along the lines that the victory over sin is not something that is fought and won once and for all, the victory is in the everyday battle which lasts a lifetime, the victory is in fighting that battle over the course of your whole life to the very end. It's not the victory which is the thing, it is fighting the battle which IS the victory, in the end.

Remember though, that Jesus didn't say it was OK to ignore your family if you are creative - and for sure he didn't OK adultery for any reason. Learn, but make decisions based on what the Lord communicates to you. Both through scripture, and through other means.

I know - this is my feeling, too. I think God gave my H a great gift, which he has used in His service. My H chose to marry and have a family. God didn't excuse him from paying attention to his wife and children - I think if he gave him this gift, he also meant for him to share his life with his family, not exclude them from his life.

Well, I had better go now....I still have a lot to do, but I am glad that I've been able to come here and touch base. I hope you are keeping well, ss.

God bless,
LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 02/07/08 11:48 PM
Hello ss!
Long time no see! I'm sorry I haven't found the time to post. I hope you understand. I am just working very hard and never having enough time to get everything I need to get done done.....but I don't want you to think that I don't care that you have taken the time to check up on me.


I sometimes wonder how you are, but I still say that you need to do what is best for LIR. If rest if what you need most, then you ought to try to get it. I do know you care. Actually, this is one of the big things I wonder about. I mean, it's easy to see you care, and that you have tried. I don't understand why your H is not grateful, and humble, and willing to thank you for that by trying himself.

I've had a busy month, with YS birthday mid-month, and OS birthday at the end of the month..... I'll say again, I don't know how you gals do it. I can only wish I had the energy.

I have tried to get some work started on the vegetable plot...so I have been up there a couple of times, did some weeding, started turning over the patch where I plan on putting in potatoes in March, and I managed to plant some rows of broad beans .....

We have had colder than normal weather, and I have not done a thing. We even had snow this week, and everything is muddy. I have not pruned the grape vines, or the dwarf peach tree, or the boysenberries. Usually I plant Peas in Jan, but not yet. As cold as it's been, they would be dormant anyway.
Sometimes they sprout by the end of January.

....I am also thinking ahead and this weekend bought 3 bags of seed potatos and 2 bags of seed onions....the onions need to go in ASAP. It's still cold and wet here, though, which is why I am not outside today...-) Getting outside, and getting up there in the vegetable patch, where I work on my own, no-one around except me and the birds, really soothes me...I'm trying to pay attention to what does make me "feel" better....

We have been getting turnips all winter, even with the heavy frost. I hope your potatoes do well. I think Onions do well almost everywhere. How did your winter crops do?
BTW, I agree about staying in when it's cold and wet. It used to be an adventure, but these days, I like a warm blanket and a good book. (and to be near my W.)

I feel that my counselling sessions are going well. I am still getting to know my counselor, but I do feel that she is a person I can trust who has good instincts and is supportive in an empathetic way. What I am really doing with her is trying to rebuild myself, which is a very slow process, but she says it will take as long as it needs to take and there is no rush, so I feel reassured.

This pleases me greatly. Thank you for doing this. I think I have said already, that I don't worry as much now.

I want to thank you for supporting me through the time it took me to find the strength to make the calls and find the right counselor.

I have known very few people who can identify what is going on as well as you can, and follow through with a solution. You are a good example to the rest of us. I think all I did was encourage you to verbalize what was already in your mind. You did the heavy work. Your comments are very kind though, and thank you.

The pain I am suffering has not gone away, but as of last week, seems to be slightly better. Since my MRI scan came out OK, and they haven't been able to find anything wrong with the tests they have done, they seem to have given up, and my doctor has referred me to the "Pain Clinic" at the hospital -

I know you had hoped for something concrete to work with. This has to be difficult to cope with mentally. Please don't doubt yourself.

...... where I will be able to get acupuncture, physiotherapy, and discuss pain relief....well, I will make what use of this that I think I can, but it seems strange to me to treat pain when you don't know what is causing it, so in frustration, last week (I was in a lot of pain) I decided it was ridiculous to take anti-inflammatory pain killers if they mask a pain you perhaps SHOULD be feeling, so I stopped taking the NSAIDs - and since then, it seems to be better.

My uncle who was a doctor in CA for about 40 years, has discussed this with me. He says that they just don't know about way too many things. I should not talk too much about this - my bad attitude will come out. ;-)
My doctor had me on three different drugs at one time. I got tired of it, and quit taking all of them. Within 6 months I felt better than I had in years. I have never gone back, and am still doing much better.

It still hurts, but not as bad - not that fierce burning pain. My doctor thinks my sciatic nerve is inflamed, and I am now wondering if the NSAIDs were making things worse. So I am staying off them, and taking a Tylenol type painkiller as and when I think I need it. I am just hoping it will slowly improve.....

My W and I continue to pray for you.
Does walking help, or make it worse?
What is most comfortable, sitting, standing, lying down, or walking? Or, does it change?

Not that I think I can help, but I catalog the information, and compare it to other's who are in the same situation. Sometimes something clicks in my mind. (but often not, says SS with a big grin.)

Things with H are the same as usual, although I have tried to be more positive towards him....

I had "switched off" completely to H after his affair, and even though he does not seem to want to reconcile with me, I am making a point of praising him for what he does well, especially when it is something I want or need him to do, to let him know how much I appreciate this - right now he is fixing our back fence - it is taking him a long time but he is doing a very good job, building a very sturdy fence which will be much better than the one that was there before.


This part is good. However, I sometimes wonder if I should keep recommending it. It would be much easier for you to distance yourself from him. The less interaction, the easier it would be. I just know that Jesus didn't take the easy way, and he did say "come, follow me....."

Are you really OK from day to day?

The thing about H is that whenever I praise him, he sabotages the effort by sparking a row...it's a pattern to our R which is "his stuff" and is part of the reason why our marriage has failed....

I know you have tried to keep from engaging him when he does this. Does it work for you, or does he draw you in?
I keep wondering how such a smart man can continue to do such dumb things. You can quote me if you want, or show him this post. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

At least I try to see that when that happens, it is not my issue....and I feel that I can still praise him for the stuff he does well (I am sure there is stuff he does well that I miss, but I do try). I have also started touching and hugging him now and again, unexpectedly. I feel that just because he says he doesn't love me doesn't mean I shouldn't let him know he is a person worthy of love. When I have given him little hugs and pats, he seems embarassed, but he has hugged me back.

I see this as good for both of you. One of the reasons I asked about the letter (the one FIL suggested) is that I see over and over on Mb......... folks who say "I made it VERY CLEAR to them ........" and then when we hear the other side, we hear "I had no idea they really felt that way, I thought......."

I have spent time counseling people in their marriages, and over, and over, I see people who are not on the same page. One wishes they could repair the marriage, and the other believes that their spouse wants out, and has already made a decision. Of course, being in front of me makes a difference too, but I wonder what your H thinks.

Again, I am not trying to tell you anything really, but wondering in print, as I often do.
(what goes through my head over and over is "why doesn't He come to her, and ask her for another chance?")

I have to go for today, so I will just close.
You are there living it, you have a better feel for things. I have faith you will do what is needed.

You do sound better overall. May it improve.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 02/17/08 06:12 PM
Hi, ss -

Thanks for getting back to me. Big stuff happening at home with my sister this last week - major family melt-down, but first I'll reply as best I can to you...

I sometimes wonder how you are, but I still say that you need to do what is best for LIR. If rest if what you need most, then you ought to try to get it. I do know you care. Actually, this is one of the big things I wonder about. I mean, it's easy to see you care, and that you have tried. I don't understand why your H is not grateful, and humble, and willing to thank you for that by trying himself.

I have been feeling really tired, sometimes light-headed - my blood test came back showing that I have small red blood cells - why this should be they haven't said, but I've just had an iron screen done and will get the tests back next week. They tested my thyroid levels and said they were "normal" - I'm not sure I believe that because a lot of what I've read says that you can have low thyroid levels for years without it showing up on the standard blood test. My mom had low thyroid and it has been suggested to my niece that she get her thyroid checked. I have a lot of the symptoms of low thyroid and have had for years, but have had it checked 2-3 times and they always say its normal. So anyway....maybe that will be the answer...fingers crossed....

As to H, I don't know why he doesn't respond either....like I keep saying, he is on his own planet....or....he is still in contact with OW. Most probably both. On Ash Wednesday, he left his wallet in one of the cars. I had the only key so he called me at work, frustrated, and asked if I could rescue it. Then he changed his mind. I worked it out so I could leave work, go home and rescue it, because I didn't want our car to be broken into. I went home, got it, found it had £200 in it, and (yes, I went through his wallet) also a Xmas gift card from the same OW (the one in Germany) - saying "Darling, I would love to serve you some sweets - and hope you enjoy them..." B. (I still don't know who this woman is). I think this sweet thing is her invitation to sex - as she said something similar in the other note, and I found a small bag of German chocolates tied with a red ribbon in his dresser once when he came back from Germany in 2006. The truth is, H lives here in our home, sleeps in his own room, has dinner with us every night, but I know nothing about "the rest of his life" - he could easily be having affairs with anyone really and I wouldn't know - because he is like that - what I have realized is that ANY spouse could do this - you could sleep in the same bed with a man for years and he could be having a long-term affair and you wouldn't know it, other than your spouse seemed a little irritable and distant sometimes, which you put down to tiredness. Some people are capable of great feats of deception. Well, anyway, I took the card out of his wallet and kept it. I haven't told him. He hasn't asked me about it. Two days later, though, we caught YS lying to us about small things while he was getting ready for school. After he went to school, I turned to H and said "I know this might sound harsh, but how can you expect YS not to lie when he sees you lying?" H got mad and said he didn't lie. I said that he often refused to tell me where he was going when I asked him - I told him that when he went out the door, the boys just rolled their eyes. I said didn't he think they could have figured out what was happening between us by now, because they had....he said it wasn't his fault our marriage had broken down. I said cheating was a good reason for a marriage to break down, so yes, he did have to take the blame for that. He shouted "and what about your explosions?!" and walked out, slamming the door. I let it go, but I wrote him a letter which I gave to him later that day. I think it was a good letter. He hasn't responded to it at all. He is just the same as he always is and its as if none of that ever happened. That's the way H is.

In my letter, I basically said that I understood that he felt angry that I had accused him of being at fault for the breakdown of our marriage. But, I said, he obviously felt that the way I had expressed my anger in the past justified him having affairs. I said that I do not have an "anger problem" - I said that in the past I had been upset and reacting to his behaviour, which I found bewildering and frightening. I said that although I had expressed my anger negatively in the past, I had done a lot of work in the past six years to deal with my own problems, that I had sought help for us both many times and had always held out my hand to him, and still did. I said his response had always been to refuse the hand offered to him and choose to continue his secret relationships with other women, using my anger as justification. For this reason, he was responsible for not choosing to work on healing our marriage. I told him I was appealing him to be honest, to be open and to tell the truth.

Well, no response so far. But events at home have eclipsed this at the moment.

On Monday, my sister decided to try to talk to my Dad about the issue she needs to confront him about. Now, we are never able to talk to my Dad without his wife present - remember, she is the OW who put us all through ****** as kids - so....she was there in the background....my sister got only so far into the conversation when my SM started screaming, grabbed the phone and started screaming abuse down the phone at my sister. My Dad managed to get the phone back, stayed calm and said to my sister to put the phone down - he would talk to her later. I talked to my sister about 2 hours after this - she was a little upset, but not surprised that happened (my SM is nuts). I said I would call my Dad and see where I could get with him. When my Dad answered, he sounded calm and pleasant - he sounded like he really wanted to talk and get this cleared up - I also only got so far in the conversation when suddenly my SM started screaming abuse, grabbed the phone and then, honestly, no kidding, ROARED uncontrollable personal abuse at me for a full 20 minutes. At one point, my dad managed to get the phone back and said to me "Just hang up"....but I didn't, I let her go on and on.....at one point, I took the phone downstairs, tapped my H on the shoulder where he was sitting watching TV with the boys and pulled him into the other room to listen.....even he was shocked.....finally I took it back upstairs, tried to tell my dad I loved him, but...it was like someone pouring hot, scalding vomit through the phone - she abused every person in our extended family - said that everyone in the family had abused her, my "ugly sister", my brother, my mother, my aunts and uncles - she said she never wanted to hear my ugly voice again, never wanted to hear my ugly voice on her answer machine again, that I would never see my father again, never see his home again, that she would kill us all if we dared to set foot on her land, that she was going to take him away from all of us, she called on God for retribution for the terrible suffering she had had all of her life at our hands, she abused my sister's children, said we were all insane, said that everyone in our family was crazy (all of her brothers and sisters are crazy), said we were stupid to have children that she had aborted all her children because she didn't want to have all of our insane genes, but we were insane enough to have them....I'm ashamed to say that when she started in on my children, I just said "(SM) F*** you." and hung up. Haven't heard from my Dad.

My sister and I are sticking together. Both of us feel the same. Relieved and liberated. I finally feel a sense of freedom. All of my life, I have been pressured into having a relationship with this woman, with my Dad telling me how much she really cares about me, and yes, she is a little nuts, but asking us to be "understanding". I feel like all of my life, I have been walking a tightrope, trying to avoid this event, but it has finally happened. And it is a blessing. She finally showed what she was made of to him. My sister and I always figured that if my Dad got ill, we would not be called to his bedside, and that as soon as he was dead, that would be it. She would reveal herself. But thankfully, she has now done it in front of him. She showed her real self, and her real feelings of hatred for us, the hatred she has always had for us, which we have always sensed, but which he would not admit.

The thing is, I'm not really mad at her. I'm amazed that someone can hate so much. Listening to her was like listening to a Hitler rant. I let her go on because I was amazed at what she was saying - amazed that she could be so personally abusive to someone she has professed to love so much - it was only when she started abusing me for having children and abusing my children that I felt angry. Otherwise, I just felt....amazed. I am sad for my Dad, but my sister and I still need to talk to him to sort this thing out, which basically has to do with his drinking, and the kinds of things he does when he drinks. Clearly my SM is sick - not just angry and co-dependent, but crazy sick, and dangerous sick - and she always has been. She is incredibly manipulative. I can now understand that my Mom was genuinely afraid of her - after all, this is the woman who took me into the shower with her when I was 9 and told me she'd had a dream the night before about my mother chasing her around the kitchen with a huge knife. (My dad had taken us to a beach party with his friends and we had come back to change out of our swimsuits and wash the sand off - my SM knew I would go home and tell my mother this...that's how my mom found out about my dad's affair). So deep down, I have been afraid of this woman all my life. I am sorry for my Dad, but.....I feel released from the burden of ever having to have anything to do with this woman for the rest of my life.

My sister and I have been praying for the best possible outcome for everyone involved - if this happened, I don't think it was a mistake. It may take my Dad a while to call, I might call him, I might write to his neighbor and ask his neighbor to hand-deliver a letter. I'm not sure yet. But I don't think this is the end of my relationship with my Dad. If it is, I will be sad, but I am not sorry that my SM showed her true colours at last.




I have known very few people who can identify what is going on as well as you can, and follow through with a solution. You are a good example to the rest of us. I think all I did was encourage you to verbalize what was already in your mind. You did the heavy work. Your comments are very kind though, and thank you.

I think you have helped me a great deal, ss. I have a tendency to analyze things too much - partly it is my way of coping, and partly, I guess I do have some instinct into how people work - the thing which has happened with my SM is a good thing because it brings out into the open the truth about a situation I have had to deal with all my life - trying to deal with someone in your life who really wishes you ill, but who hides it very successfully. I have been up against that all my life. I think my SM really does hate me, not just me, she hated all of us, my father's children, just BECAUSE of who we were - she hated us because we stood between her and him, because we got in her way, because we tied him to our mother, because we took money away from her, but mostly because he loved us...she hated us because he loved us, and because we were there first. I have had to deal with that all my life and it has given me a sixth sense about people and their hidden emotions. But because I have had to submit to having a relationship with her in order to have a relationship with my father, I have been very vulnerable to abuse. I will tolerate almost anything when I really shouldn't. She is the reason why I am vulnerable to abuse. So I am GLAD she finally openly abused me in front of him. It brought it out into the open and showed him her hatred. And I can finally say no to it because it has been shown to be what it really is instead of masquerading as love. I feel at peace with it all now. I don't have any desire to retaliate at all. I am even praying for her deliverance from evil. You have been a good guide through a very difficult time in my life, helping me to follow what the signposts of what is good, and trusting that awareness in myself. For that, I am very grateful.


My W and I continue to pray for you.
Does walking help, or make it worse?
What is most comfortable, sitting, standing, lying down, or walking? Or, does it change?


Thank you and your wife for your prayers. Very much. Walking actually seems to help. Sitting is worst, lying down not much better, standing can also be bad. It does change - it is sometimes worse than others. My uncle, who was an anaesthetist, thinks the pain clinic may be able to help - he said it sounds like it could be "neurological" - I wonder what that means....

One of the reasons I asked about the letter (the one FIL suggested) is that I see over and over on Mb......... folks who say "I made it VERY CLEAR to them ........" and then when we hear the other side, we hear "I had no idea they really felt that way, I thought......."

I have spent time counseling people in their marriages, and over, and over, I see people who are not on the same page. One wishes they could repair the marriage, and the other believes that their spouse wants out, and has already made a decision. Of course, being in front of me makes a difference too, but I wonder what your H thinks.

Again, I am not trying to tell you anything really, but wondering in print, as I often do.


I was intrigued by this, and I'm taking it on board. I wrote stuff in that letter I mentioned earlier about his feelings....it was basically a "John Gray" love letter, but I tried to write things that showed I was willing to understand things from his point of view, hoping he would come forward with something...but....nothing.....however, I am filing this in my own "brain file" - this is the kind of thing you are really helpful to me with - the stuff I don't pick up on myself because I haven't looked at it that way, or am too stressed to remember....I think I have also reached the point where I feel I can accept that if he sees things from his POV and he feels he can't go any further with me, I can accept that and go on with my life. Of course, I might feel he is wrong, but I don't feel I have to convince him that I am the one who is right. -)

(what goes through my head over and over is "why doesn't He come to her, and ask her for another chance?")
Probably because he is still having an affair. Or a different one.

I would just like to say - I do realize that this is a marriage-building forum and I came here in the hopes of rebuilding my marriage when I found out my H was having EAs and now he has had a PA. I am also a child of divorce and have had to deal with my father's OW all my life. I know that most people would choose not to handle my situation the way that I have. Most people would be divorced by now and they would feel it was better for the children to be divorced. I am not convinced of that yet. And the reason for that is because of what I just talked about above - my father's OW. I could get divorced, and then my H would be free to have his other relationship(s) openly, and there would be no way to avoid my children coming into contact with them. I feel a very strong determination not to let my children suffer what I went through, and not to have to go through what I went through. If I were to divorce him, my H's OW (whoever she might be) would have a free rein to play with my children's minds however she wanted. You do not know how that can play out. People live in a fantasy world when they think divorce is going to be the answer to their problems. My H and I suffer in our R with each other, but I do know that my H loves his children, and he trusts them with me, so it is better for them to be safe with us, as best as we can make it. It is a choice of the lesser of two evils at the moment. My H is a wayward spouse - he's not honest. But any woman who would suck my H into a R with her is not safe to be around my kids. That's why I stay married - to try to keep them safe with me. If we divorce, they could go to him, or end up spending time with him and his OW, which could be a worse thing for them than what we have now.

Well, I have to go now.....thank you again for your kindness and support. I see my counselor in a couple of days, so don't worry about me.....

Will be in touch soon.

God bless,
LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 02/28/08 09:03 PM
I brought up this page, intending to do a longer post..... but I was reminded of a deadline, and I need to go.

Not sure if I'll get back today.

- SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 03/01/08 01:24 AM
From your post of Feb 5th - I never did finish commenting.

Our priest last week said something along the lines that the victory over sin is not something that is fought and won once and for all, the victory is in the everyday battle which lasts a lifetime, the victory is in fighting that battle over the course of your whole life to the very end. It's not the victory which is the thing, it is fighting the battle which IS the victory, in the end.

So true -
I found a poem you may enjoy. Not exactly the same thing, but along those lines.

Gethsemane
In golden youth when seems the earth
A Summer-land of singing mirth,
When souls are glad and hearts are light,
And not a shadow lurks in sight,

We do not know it, but there lies
Somewhere veiled under evening skies
A garden which we all must see—
The garden of Gethsemane.

With joyous steps we go our ways,
Love lends a halo to our days;
Light sorrows sail like clouds afar,
We laugh, and say how strong we are.

We hurry on; and hurrying, go
Close to the border-land of woe,
That waits for you, and waits for me—
Forever waits Gethsemane.

Down shadowy lanes, across strange streams,
Bridged over by our broken dreams;
Behind the misty caps of years,
Beyond the great salt fount of tears,

The garden lies. Strive as you may,
You cannot miss it in your way.
All paths that have been, or shall be,
Pass somewhere through Gethsemane.

All those who journey, soon or late,
Must pass within the garden’s gate;
Must kneel alone in darkness there,
And battle with some fierce despair.

God pity those who can not say,
“Not mine but thine,” who only pray,
“Let this cup pass,” and cannot see
The purpose in Gethsemane.

[Maurine and Other Poems (Chicago: W. B. Conkey, 1888), p. 135]

There is a purpose in these things that happen to us. We do not labor in vain.

I have been feeling really tired, sometimes light-headed - my blood test came back showing that I have small red blood cells - why this should be they haven't said, but I've just had an iron screen done and will get the tests back next week. They tested my thyroid levels and said they were "normal" - I'm not sure I believe that because a lot of what I've read says that you can have low thyroid levels for years without it showing up on the standard blood test. My mom had low thyroid and it has been suggested to my niece that she get her thyroid checked. I have a lot of the symptoms of low thyroid and have had for years, but have had it checked 2-3 times and they always say its normal. So anyway....maybe that will be the answer...fingers crossed....

Would like to know if you have learned anything else about your health.

I read with interest the comments you made about your H, and what you have discovered. You leave out what your feelings were....... I have thought about that. Realize that we catch glimpses, and we feel (at least in part) the pain you must have had over the years. I don't know if his actions have so seared your feelings that it doesn't affect you as much now, but I would guess it still hurts. I can't express in words the sorrow I feel. For you, that you have to live with this, and for him, that he will loose so much if he does not change.

In my letter, I basically said that I understood that he felt angry that I had accused him of being at fault for the breakdown of our marriage. But, I said, he obviously felt that the way I had expressed my anger in the past justified him having affairs. I said that I do not have an "anger problem" - I said that in the past I had been upset and reacting to his behaviour, which I found bewildering and frightening.

I have been thinking about anger for more than a few years now. I notice that Jesus was not angry for himself, only for others.
For his fathers house, when he drove the money changers out. For innocent people who were harmed by those who knew better.

I can't think of when he was ever angry over what was done to him personally.

I'm just sharing my thoughts, and I am still thinking about this one. I know you have been working on your reactions, and I believe you have come a long way with this, but I am not there when you two converse <SS smiles>

When I say I am still thinking about it.......... I have had an anger problem, and it was one of the reasons my W was having a hard time loving me. I am thinking, and learning, and hopefully improving, and I notice she is happy to see me when I get home from work now days.

Your H is not responding, but it appears to be in him, not you. It is difficult to think suggestions these days. I so wish your marriage (and your hearts) could be healed.

I see I must go....... but I'll be back when I can.

May you be able to find joy in the journey. I wish I had time to encourage you more........ after all the things that have happened.

Remember that people pray for you.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 03/01/08 11:35 AM
Hello ss -

Thank you for the poem. Yes, it's a good one - says it all so well.

You asked about my health. Just in the last few days, I finally have some improvement! I went to the doctor again this week. This time I went to a GP in our practice who my friend told me is an anaesthetist - I figured he would have a better understanding of nerves. He was really good - he said that he thought from what I was describing, that the pain I am feeling is "neuropathic" and is caused by damaged nerves (probably damaged in childbirth, but only now showing up - actually it did hurt like this after the birth of YS2). He said the Pain Clinic to which I have been referred, and which I will have my first appt in March, will probably be able to help me. But he said there were other things they could try before then, and he put me on a very low dose of a medication called Amitryptiline. This is tricyclic anti-depressant, but in the very low dose he is giving me, it doesn't have that effect. It works!! I am so happy. For the last few days, my pain has been gone. Actually I can still feel sensations there, like there is something amiss, but it's like someone has injected a massive anaesthetic there so I don't feel the pain anymore. I take it at night because it makes me sleepy, so I have now had a few nights of really good sleep, which is starting to make a difference. People say I am looking better. The doctor said the light-headedness I was feeling was sheer exhaustion, from 18 months of being in pain and not sleeping well. Like it says in the Bible "keep knocking" until you get what you are asking for, in this case, for me, an accurate diagnosis and treatment. I feel better.-) Big load off my mind. Thank you for praying for me all this time.

On the home front with Dad - my Dad finally called me two days ago and I was able to have a good talk with him, explain the situation and move forward with reconciliation (with him). He has not been able to call me until then because of my SM, who does not leave him alone for one minute, so that he can't call us. I know people will say, what's wrong with him that he lets her have that power over him, that he can always use that as an excuse. Well, my Dad lives in the woods in a 3 room wooden cabin with no indoor toilet facilities, an outside bathtub, and only enough electricity to run one lightbulb and the phone line. It's not possible for him to have a private phone conversation in these Ma and Pa Kettle conditions with a raging madwoman in the next room who barges in and grabs the phone away from him. He would have to physically assault her in order to regain control, and that he won't do. He has had to wait for the moment when she leaves him alone, which would also coincide with our differing time zones, in order to call me. What's happened here is that my SM has been "outed" in her hidden antipathy and jealousy for us, his children. Although I realize this makes life difficult for him, for us it is a blessing - the truth always seems easier to cope with. My counselor said she has thought about this a lot and says that 41 years (the length of time my SM has been in my life) is a long time to have to deal with someone like this. Obviously it would have an effect. It is probably why I am so analytical - my brain tries desperately to figure out what other people's real motives are, trying to evaluate their behaviour. As a child, my feelings were, to some degree, invalidated - I was not allowed to say I didn't want to see her or have a relationship with her. Oh, it's a long story....it would make a good novel, if only I had the time, courage and talent to write it. I sometimes think that would be the most healthy way to deal with myself - to fictionalize things and produce some kind of "work of art" - that would get it out of my system in a good way, not in a bad way.

Anyhoo, I am at least glad to be in communication with my Dad again. My sister wants reconciliation, too, so I think things look hopeful on this. As to my SM, I'm not concerned about her - I'm not worrying about her feelings or what will become of her. I am just praying for her. I don't want to be sucked into a relationship with her, though.

My H - well. Yes, you are right. It still hurts. I can't forget the hopes and dreams I had and the commitment I gave to marriage. My children are a flesh and blood reminder of the love I felt for my H - I would not have had them if I had not loved him enough to accept the commitment of marriage and all that went with it, which is what my H asked of me. I can't understand why my H has abandoned me. It's like the man I thought I was marrying does not really exist. I really don't know. I try to get along with him on a day to day level, but even that is hard sometimes - like yesterday, he seemed to have got up on the wrong side of the bed - everyone noticed it. Today he is better. When these things happen, I sometimes wonder if it is because something is going wrong with the OW - he is angry about something to do with his affair-relationship. Or he is frustrated because he is not getting any sex. This is when I start to question whether or not I am doing the right thing by staying. Because it can't be right that we, his family, should feel the effects of his frustration with an affair-relationship. The only way I have of not accepting his affair is to not sleep with him. Or I could file for a legal separation and force him out of the house, which would spark a legal confrontation between us which would be very costly and be horribly painful for our children. I have suggested to my H that he move and he refuses - says he can't afford it - (I know he can't). I don't think anyone's best interests would be served by making my H homeless. I am watching as one of my son's school friends' situation deteriorates - the wife D her H because of domestic abuse, H remarried in 6 months, their 2 boys have really struggled, with one getting into drugs and being kicked out of school - now living with grandparents - the younger boy has now turned on his mother and has decided to go live with his father, where he thinks everything will be hunkydory. I see this all the time - parents split up, and boys in particular are torn between father and mother. No matter how "bad" ad dad is, boys still a lot of times need to be with their father. I just don't think it would be all OK if we split up. This is a slow process for me and I'm working through it with my counselor. She doesn't advise me to do anything different right now. All I can say is that I once told my H that when the Devil goes after you, he throws something in your way that you think is what you really need to make you happy, the only trouble being that you will have to hurt everyone you really love and betray everything you ever said you believed in, in order to have it. My H has done that - gone for what he thought he really needed to be happy - affairs. To me, he is a changed man. I don't know how to help him come back. I don't really know what drives him or who he is anymore. All I can do is pray for him, which I continue to do.

I have to go now, but thanks for your prayers and thoughts. The anger problem thing is something we could talk about later, maybe....

All the best,
LIR
Posted By: Trix Re: Calling still seeking... - 03/02/08 12:28 AM
I feel sorry and sad for you with your situation with your WH. I wish you could really talk to him or somehow get through his fog. I can't help but think he'll have some deep regrets someday for the years he's wasted on OW...and the pain he's put you through.

It's good that your Dad called you and you were able to work things out with your relationship with him.
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 03/02/08 11:48 PM
Thank you for your kind thoughts, Trix.

I don't know about my H. Maybe he was always like this - narcissistic, and I just didn't see it. My sister says she thinks he has always been like this, and the truth is all my family told me not to marry him. It's really hard to say. I've read a lot about Narcissistic Personality Disorder and it's possible he's that type - he is certainly very self-centered in a strange kind of way - I always put it down to his "creative" personality. But it could also be that I have retreated from him so far, because I have been so hurt, that I just don't relate to him anymore. I was a very loyal wife. I have supported him through a number of serious conflicts he has had with other people. That's one of the reasons I feel so betrayed. I still have not had an affair of my own (not that I think I am entitled to one - in fact, I think MB has probably helped me to see that I am NOT entitled to one, no matter how alone I feel - having an affair of my own would just make things so much worse and give him all the ammunition he would need to kick ME out, keep the house and keep the boys - so I'm not about to risk that.) I think I am just trying to wait until the boys are older to see how things turn out. I don't intend to leave this marriage with nothing.

I read a terrible article a few weeks ago in the Daily Mail (UK) about a woman who discovered that her H (who was an RE teacher - Religious Education - at a secondary school) was having an EA with one of his 16 yr old pupils. Her story reads like one of the threads from MB, but she didn't have the advice to help her keep her cool. After months of him hiding the affair and her trying first to protect him, then to expose him (the school let him go but took no action against him, which I cannot understand, as he can be prosecuted under the law), she finally lost it and left the family home. She took her 8-yr old son with her, but her 14-yr old son was torn and decided to stay with his Dad. Within 2 weeks, the 16-yr old pupil (who had now left school) moved in to her home and is having sex with her H, while her son is in the next room - her son is a pupil at the same school. He is freaked out by it but won't come live with his mom because he doesn't want to leave the only home he has ever known. The girl's parents are frantic, but apparently no-one in authority is willing to do anything about it. They can't prove it started before she was 16, and he was not a teacher at the school when their affair turned physical. So she is technically "of age", and there is nothing anyone can do about it. I think the guy is a child molester and there must be some way to prosecute him. But it just shows you the damage that can be done if you lose it and leave the marital home when your H is having an affair. This woman is now homeless (living with her parents) and is racking up huge lawyers fees trying to claim what is rightfully hers, while her son is suffering untold psychological damage by living in the same house with his monster father.

Well - my H isn't after some 16 year old - I've seen the OW picture and she is definitely NOT 16 - more like 40 - I don't know what he sees in her - her nose is even bigger than mine!LOL I think it's just that she hardly knows him and so she thinks he's God in a suit living with some hag of a wife...and so she pushes all the right buttons for him....

I did write my H a letter after I found the card from her in his wallet on 12 Feb. I've been thinking of posting it here because I've been thinking about continuing to write him - at least then I would say what I wanted to say to him, even if he never replied.

I haven't heard any more from my Dad. I feel sad for him, but I know that he will call when he can. My Dad is a great example for WS everywhere - I can't think of any worse punishment than what he has received, which is to spend the rest of his life with the OW. I have to say that catperson's SM sounds worse, though - I've been reading Pablo58's thread and trying to help him where I think I can.

How are you? I hope you are well these days. Thank you for coming in to say hi. I'm grateful for all comments and it's good to hear from you.

Take care,
LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 03/03/08 05:29 AM
Hi Trix !! Hope you are well, and happy.

Hi LIR !!
I wish the same for you - sooner, not later.

So often I wish I had more time to comment. It is difficult to believe the things your SM will do. I know about people like this in theory, but it is always a shock to actually meet one face to face.
I was tempted to say that "I don't know how you do it." But, really, I do. You are a daughter of God who is trying to do what is right. Help, and strength will continue to come to you when you need it.

Keep trying, and never give up.

I will be out of town for at least a day, with no net access. Sorry I didn't say more.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 03/14/08 05:04 AM
This is my first totally free evening for quite some time. The twins are next door at their best friends home, and W has been ill today, and is sleeping. Maybe I can finally catch up a little bit.

You wouldn't believe how many times I read your post, and a reply starts to come to me, and I have to go do something else. (Or maybe you would, since you live real life too.)

I am going back a few posts -


I would just like to say - I do realize that this is a marriage-building forum and I came here in the hopes of rebuilding my marriage when I found out my H was having EAs and now he has had a PA. I am also a child of divorce and have had to deal with my father's OW all my life. I know that most people would choose not to handle my situation the way that I have. Most people would be divorced by now and they would feel it was better for the children to be divorced. I am not convinced of that yet. And the reason for that is because of what I just talked about above - my father's OW. I could get divorced, and then my H would be free to have his other relationship(s) openly, and there would be no way to avoid my children coming into contact with them. I feel a very strong determination not to let my children suffer what I went through, and not to have to go through what I went through.

I have learned that God does guide us if our hearts are turned to him. There are many voices on MB these days............ and if you were getting lots of posts, you might hear people saying things like "kick him to the curb." I tend to think your heart IS turned to God, and that you are being helped. I admit I still worry though.......... maybe not as much as before, but I still worry .


My H is a wayward spouse - he's not honest. But any woman who would suck my H into a R with her is not safe to be around my kids. That's why I stay married - to try to keep them safe with me. If we divorce, they could go to him, or end up spending time with him and his OW, which could be a worse thing for them than what we have now.

My W's parents were divorced when she was about 16. She seems the best adjusted of all her brothers and sisters, but most of them still have problems that can be traced back to the D. (about 34 years ago.) God is the only one who knows what is best .......... I hope you continue to ask him for guidance.


You asked about my health. Just in the last few days, I finally have some improvement! I went to the doctor again this week............... he said there were other things they could try before then, and he put me on a very low dose of a medication called Amitryptiline..........It works!!

That is very, very good news. Thank you for reporting it. Your health is so important....... especially when so much depends upon you.



I am so happy. For the last few days, my pain has been gone. Actually I can still feel sensations there, like there is something amiss, but it's like someone has injected a massive anaesthetic there so I don't feel the pain anymore. I take it at night because it makes me sleepy, so I have now had a few nights of really good sleep, which is starting to make a difference.

I hope you continue to get a good nights sleep most nights. It helps SO MUCH. I was afraid it would continue to get worse, and weaken your immune system. It is amazing how getting enough restful sleep can help our attitude, and our ability to cope with daily problems.



On the home front with Dad - my Dad finally called me two days ago and I was able to have a good talk with him, explain the situation and move forward with reconciliation (with him). He has not been able to call me until then because of my SM, who does not leave him alone for one minute, so that he can't call us.

By now he knows he made a big mistake so long ago, but of course, it's too late to change it. Why do people continue to give up heaven for the thrills of this world? Especially such counterfeit ones? I feel sorry for him.

I know people will say, what's wrong with him that he lets her have that power over him, that he can always use that as an excuse. Well, my Dad lives in the woods in a 3 room wooden cabin with no indoor toilet facilities, an outside bathtub, and only enough electricity to run one lightbulb and the phone line. It's not possible for him to have a private phone conversation in these Ma and Pa Kettle conditions with a raging madwoman in the next room who barges in and grabs the phone away from him. He would have to physically assault her in order to regain control, and that he won't do. He has had to wait for the moment when she leaves him alone, which would also coincide with our differing time zones, in order to call me.

Sometimes I wonder why he doesn't run. That would be another way to regain control. Ditch her, get a lawyer, and sever all ties. Let the lawyer be a go between. Perhaps the devil we know is better than the devil we don't know. I would guess at this point he will live out his life with her.
Sad.



What's happened here is that my SM has been "outed" in her hidden antipathy and jealousy for us, his children. Although I realize this makes life difficult for him, for us it is a blessing - the truth always seems easier to cope with. My counselor said she has thought about this a lot and says that 41 years (the length of time my SM has been in my life) is a long time to have to deal with someone like this.

I wonder what I would have done........ but I have no idea. 41 years is a long time, especially when it starts when you are so young when it began. My mother and father are still together. Our family ties are strong. I wonder if this is something that you sometimes wish for. I hope I don't stir up things better left alone.


Obviously it would have an effect. It is probably why I am so analytical - my brain tries desperately to figure out what other people's real motives are, trying to evaluate their behaviour. As a child, my feelings were, to some degree, invalidated - I was not allowed to say I didn't want to see her or have a relationship with her. Oh, it's a long story....it would make a good novel, if only I had the time, courage and talent to write it. I sometimes think that would be the most healthy way to deal with myself - to fictionalize things and produce some kind of "work of art" - that would get it out of my system in a good way, not in a bad way.

This was difficult to write about?
I am having a hard time knowing what to say about this part. I know God can heal us, and make things right, but I don't understand it completely. May it be sooner than later for you. I am constantly amazed by how much you see, and understand. I know it doesn't make the emotional part any easier though.

Anyhoo, I am at least glad to be in communication with my Dad again. My sister wants reconciliation, too, so I think things look hopeful on this. As to my SM, I'm not concerned about her - I'm not worrying about her feelings or what will become of her. I am just praying for her. I don't want to be sucked into a relationship with her, though.

I think you are going about this the right way, with the right attitude.
Do you have a date for your next visit back home? Sometimes I wish you lived closer to your sister.

I hope she and her H are doing well these days.


My H - well. Yes, you are right. It still hurts. I can't forget the hopes and dreams I had and the commitment I gave to marriage. My children are a flesh and blood reminder of the love I felt for my H - I would not have had them if I had not loved him enough to accept the commitment of marriage and all that went with it, which is what my H asked of me.

I know that words.......... can not express the depth of feelings associated with the comments you are making here........... nor our desire that things were otherwise. Please forgive me, but I can't find the right words.
"Sorry" is such an understatement.

Still.............. I trust you to God, knowing he doesn't need words to make it right, and knowing that he has the ability to do it too.

I can't understand why my H has abandoned me.

I continue to look at all the things that have happened, and that continue to happen. IN the early years, I would offer suggestions, and things you could try, but what he is doing goes way beyond anything in my own experience. I feel more sorry for him than I do for you. We cannot get mortal things by Celestial customs.......... that applies to relationships that are not Godly, as well as "things." He probably has less than 50 years left of this life, and then he will meet his maker. It hurts me to think of the results of that meeting if he doesn't accept God into his life. Why would he throw his life away for a few trinkets....... so to speak?

I don't know how to help him come back. I don't really know what drives him or who he is anymore. All I can do is pray for him, which I continue to do.

As do I, for all of you.



I have to go now, but thanks for your prayers and thoughts. The anger problem thing is something we could talk about later, maybe....

I often wonder when I go back and read my comments if I worded things the right way. What I said about anger was not a reflection on you at all. I was thinking about me, and my past because of what you wrote. I find that reading the bible is not quit enough, but I need to spend time thinking about what I read, and meditating on what the scripture says. I was doing that as I was typing, and not thinking so much about the way I was putting the words together.

I know you have said that in the early years you would get angry with him, and sometimes react in ways you regretted. It looks like you are doing much better now. I am not sure if I do as well as you do.

I find I still get angry sometimes, but I am able to control it (most of the time) deal with it, and not hurt my W or children as I once did. I hope in time that even the internal anger will go away. One of the ways I deal with it, is by going over the apparent cause of my feelings (in my own mind.) When I take the time to think about things, I usually realize that the anger is a selfish reaction to whatever the problem is. Usually I get angry when I am inconvienced. When I think about how to best solve whatever the problem is, I feel empathy for others, and want to help them, and the anger just kind of goes away.. It has been interesting for me to learn more about myself, and how my mind works.

I am far from perfect, but improving.


I did write my H a letter after I found the card from her in his wallet on 12 Feb. I've been thinking of posting it here because I've been thinking about continuing to write him - at least then I would say what I wanted to say to him, even if he never replied.

What direction would you be taking with this?
I would love to know what you have in mind.


To change the subject.......

The garden is coming up - at lest the things that can survive a light frost. I can see small green shoots from all of these.
Leeks
Onions
Edible pod peas
Carrots
Cabbage
Beets
The peach tree has buds on it today. I hope it doesn't freeze very hard now.

We pulled up the last of turnips this week. Now that it's getting warm, they would go to seed if we left them in the ground. I will save one or two for seed, but the rest are gone.

We did our annual camping trip to the desert last week. It was cool the first two days, but the last day was perfect. I should probably post a few photos. I doubt if you see much desert close to where you live now. (grin)

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 03/25/08 12:29 AM
I would love to reply to you, but I am going away for 10 days and it is already 12:30 AM - I have been checking for days, but the board has been down, so I couldn't post. I am going to stay with my FIL for 10 days - he is 90 and still lives alone, so I am going to look after him while my BIL is away on holiday. I'm looking forward to it, and so is he - he likes me. My H will have to cope with taking care of the family while I am away - as YS is still in school...Easter was so early this year....

I just wanted to say I read your last post and I'm grateful for your prayers. I hope your wife feels better now. My counselling is going well...I think I am in good hands. I am feeling better - I've been to the Pain Clinic and the doctor there put me on an additional medication - it's all working, so it's good to know they have diagnosed the problem - that helps me stop worrying about it.....rest is important, though, so I've got to get to bed. I continue to pray, and sometimes things come to me.....I ask God to forgive me for judging others....

I'll come back on when I come back after 3 April. Good luck with your garden!

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 03/25/08 04:40 AM
I'll be posting more about anger....... sometime this week.

Have a good, safe trip. God be with you.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/01/08 08:49 PM
More thoughts about anger...
I'm going to talk about how I try to deal with it, and give you some thoughts. I hope you will add to it, and perhaps help me with a discussion. However, please don't spend time you don't have. I realize as I write this that you are not home yet, and when you do get home there will be things to do.

I still have a temper. Most people don't now it, but I do. Some people say that anger is good, in that it prompts us to act. For instance, if my W does something that I don't like, and I bite my tongue, there usually comes a day when it all comes out. IN the past, it was ugly when that happened. Dr Harley says we ought to have radical honesty. That is, we need to share the things that bother us, and even more important, the things that delight us. Failure to discuss and process things often does lead to angry discussions.

The problem I had in the past is that to "keep the peace" I would try to keep things to myself. I could do it for a long time, but something would trigger me, and I would unload on my W. She would cry, or get angry back, and we would feel worse, not better.

I am trying to learn to bring things up as I go along now, and not save them or try to hide them.

There are two sides to this though. I already know it's best not to talk within minutes of some kind of trigger event. I know the chance of my saying something mean goes way down if I wait a day, so I usually wait. The danger is that I will wait too long, and let it pass until the NEXT trigger event. Jesus knew how to act when something happened. He never lost control, and always talked when he needed to talk, or stronger if more was called for. I am not that good, and I have a difficult time knowing what to say, and when to say it.

See, some things really should be left alone. There is the scripture about cleaning our my own eye before worrying about someone else's eye. However, sometimes it is necessary and right to talk about a problem, and come to a solution. Anger can be the prompt to these conversations, but should not set the tone for them. I am still working on that.

What I have learned -

Don't talk when I am really bent out of shape.
Don't let it go if It is important - it will come back later to haunt me.
Go to God with my thoughts, and ask him to guide me. This helps me to know when to act, and when to let things go. Or in other words, to know what is important, and what may only be a problem in my own mind.

I think this is part of what we come to this life to learn. I still have trouble on both ends. Sometimes I will take a walk to quiet down. I wish I didn't have to, but it's better than speaking in anger. Sometimes I let things go that I should deal with. Almost always they return in force.

The trick is finding the right balance. I am still working on that.

I have thought about this in connection with your situation. You have to make choices as to how to react to things your H does. You have made those choices, and are making them. We pray for you often, and hope you find balance too.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/04/08 08:28 PM
Dear still seeking -

I am back from my trip and feel...better somehow, for the break....I had a good time with my FIL and feel somehow more at peace with everything. I will go into that later....

I just have a few minutes, when everyone else is busy, so I wanted to say hi and thank you for your post. I have some thoughts on the things you said, which I will go into more depth with later....I also can struggle with anger, and I know that anger is probably one of my H's major problems.

When I was away, I used the time to get back to studying, and it's odd, but all the stuff in this Management course (sheesh I just tried to do the roll eyes icon and it's going to look like I'm upset when I'm not - don't panic, don't panic!)...anyway...Management (rolls eyes), as Management was something I just never thought I would be interested in....and, the truth is, that I never thought I would be good at it, so I didn't dare open a book on the subject....me? Manager? Never....well....for some odd reason, I guess at age 50, without realizing it, I have done a lot of "management" by now, and I'm realizing some of what I have done has been "good", and some management of my life has been "not so good".....but...(I'm getting there....grins)....a lot of it is making a lot of common sense to me....and there is a lot of stuff in here that I keep thinking..."if only I had been taught that when I was 25!"...of course, at 25, I would probably have been incapable of following any of the guidance being taught here - why? Because I acted entirely on my emotions, whatever they were....

In my reading, at the moment (I've covered all kinds of interesting (NOT) stuff like budgets, strategic planning, costing, working with people, power, influence, authority, etc...)...and at the moment, I'm on "Problem solving and decision making". Decision making is really grabbing my attention (I have a few problems to solve and a few decisions that could be made....grins again). It's great because I am reading about all the techniques there are to approach problem-solving and decision-making.....great stuff....then they ask "How do you approach solving problems and making decisions in your personal life?" and the answer is - LOL! Really! I realize (a little late in the game, I admit) that all the most important decisions in my life have probably been made with very little rational thought and mostly purely on emotion. Business decisions, management decisions have to be made on a rational basis....but we grant ourselves license to act purely on our emotions in our personal lives.

I also pray and meditate a lot on the anger issue. I have been on the receiving end of a lot of serious anger in my life, and have also expressed myself very angrily at times. How can we deal with these feelings in a way that doesn't hurt others, and yet still get some feeling of satisfaction, in other words, we are angry for a reason...something upsets us about the way someone else has behaved, usually - they have done something we don't like, or created a problem that we feel we have to solve...sometimes we feel it is not fair that we have to solve a problem created by someone else, so we seethe with resentment, which festers.

(I'm just going with my flow right now...I hope you know that what I am saying I am applying to myself, too, so I hope you don't feel I am "preaching" at you....) - well, as I have been looking carefully at these different methods for problem-solving, and decison-making, it strikes me that when we are angry, it is because we perceive that there is a problem....and we can't feel relaxed until the issue is resolved in a way that is satisfactory to us.

I think that is why we fester, and it all comes spilling out when our resentment is triggered...because we still have not resolved the issue which is bothering us.

It is necessary to take the time to calm down - anger is the most powerful emotion there is, besides love....anger is so powerful, it can kill...so it is useless trying to resolve an issue when we are in the grip of anger. Any solution we might try to thrash through will be clouded by very powerful emotions.

I think its possible to take that time, the time when we usually fester with unresolved anger, and, once we have got a little breathing space, put some safe distance between ourselves and what has sparked our temper.....to put these problems solving techniques to work....once our rational mind is able to operate again....the first step is to articulate exactly what the problem is....you cannot arrive at a solution without articulating the problem....then you look at your desirable outcome....try to articulate your objective.....usually we have our heart set on only one path to this desired objective....and this is the important bit.....you need to take this breathing space time to think up alternatives....just as if you were trying to find a solution to a space problem in your shop....try to think of alternative solutions to your problem....list them, then try to evaluate them....once you set your rational mind this problem to solve and give it a structure that it can use to develop some creative thinking around, you may surprise yourself with the solutions you can think up....after you have taken the time to evaluate all the alternatives, you may find that you can approach the problem differently...because your goal is to find the BEST solution to your problem.....

You strike me as being a rational person, ss, and I am sure that you probably use these kinds of techniques when you are facing decisions you have to make about your business.....that's not to say that I think you should be cold-hearted about the issues you want to resolve with your family or your wife....it has just struck me that in that space when you withdraw to try to control your anger, that if you take the time to go through this process, you will end up finding a way towards a solution to the issue in question, and you may be able to go back and approach the issue with your loved one in a different frame of mind.

I have also been struck by the continual advice to consult your employees - to gather their input.....that employees are a lot happier when they feel that they are being listened to, and are able to contribute (I know my job is vastly improved by my boss having this approach with me, in stark contrast to my previous boss). It strikes me that I could do better at "consulting" with my boys - of course, I AM the boss - but I think I could be better about "gathering information" i.e. allowing them to participate more, and to voice their feelings about certain things.

To go back to the decision-making process....once you feel you have some mastery over the process - time out, take a deep breath, calm down - then start processing the problem - state the problem to yourself, state your ideal objective, brainstorm solutions, brainstorm ALTERNATIVES, then evaluate the alternatives, try to decide on which is the BEST solution - OK, I can see you being good at this, ss -

Then, perhaps on issues that are not likely to suddenly require the use of a fire extinguisher, try to practice this whole process with her, and the rest of the family - (apparently, group decision making is called "brainstorming") - I bet you already do this!-) For the times when you feel you are going to explode, you will probably always need to get breathing space between yourself and the trigger to your anger, but perhaps it will get easier as time goes on, to find a solution to what is triggering the rage....

See, it's all new to me - I get excited about new stuff - I want to share.-)

I am just going to throw this out there....it might give you some creative ideas you can use....

I've got to go....family needs my attention now, but all the best and I will post sometime soon....I can't get the search function to work on this new forum....still finding my way around....

Good luck with your garden!

LIR
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/08/08 09:00 AM
Hello...

I hope you don't think I was being patronizing....you probably know all about that stuff already......

Oops....OS needs the Mom taxi service ASAP.

Hope you are well.

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/08/08 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by friend4life
Hello...

I hope you don't think I was being patronizing....you probably know all about that stuff already......

Oops....OS needs the Mom taxi service ASAP.

Hope you are well.

LIR

As far as being patronizing -
I had to read it three times before I could understand what you meant by that. (SS smiles)

No, I didn't think that. It never crossed my mind. I'm just being my (often) slow self. Working on a post in word processor, will post it when finished. Sometimes I have it open two or three days before I finish......... sorry it takes me so long.

I hope the taxi driver got a tip.

Very glad you got a break for a while. It sounds like you had some time to think. I hope you had some time to sleep too.

Things are OK on this end. Problems every week, but by the grace of God we get through them just fine. (another smile)

Garden is doing well - hope yours is also. And......... I hope the boys are well.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/10/08 01:39 AM
Hello LIR !!
It's always nice to hear from you.

I am back from my trip and feel...better somehow, for the break....I had a good time with my FIL and feel somehow more at peace with everything. I will go into that later....

I thought it would be good for you. No real reason, except that you were probably more at ease that you can be with H around. Will wait to hear what you have to say. It is always interesting to have your insights and thoughts.

I just have a few minutes, when everyone else is busy, so I wanted to say hi and thank you for your post. I have some thoughts on the things you said, which I will go into more depth with later....I also can struggle with anger, and I know that anger is probably one of my H's major problems.

I was mostly talking about my own struggles, but I know you have spoken about it over the years. It would be almost unbelievable to go through the problems you have been through and not have to deal with anger. I hope you will comment and give some insight.


When I was away, I used the time to get back to studying, and it's odd, but all the stuff in this Management course (sheesh I just tried to do the roll eyes icon and it's going to look like I'm upset when I'm not - don't panic, don't panic!)...anyway...Management (rolls eyes), as Management was something I just never thought I would be interested in....and, the truth is, that I never thought I would be good at it, so I didn't dare open a book on the subject....me? Manager?

Often......... people who have good job skills are promoted to be managers. Sometimes they are able to learn to manage swell, and teach others their skills, and sometimes not. I have always looked at management as the art of getting many to do what needs to be done, instead of trying to do it all yourself. . It was good for me to read this, because I don't often bring this into my mind to mull over. I am just so/so at management, probably much better in the job skill area. I have a hard time getting my employees to do things as well as I like to have them done. I would think you would be good at it. Most good mothers are good managers. At least, in my experience.

Never....well....for some odd reason, I guess at age 50, without realizing it, I have done a lot of "management" by now, and I'm realizing some of what I have done has been "good", and some management of my life has been "not so good".....but...(I'm getting there....grins)....a lot of it is making a lot of common sense to me....and there is a lot of stuff in here that I keep thinking..."if only I had been taught that when I was 25!"...of course, at 25, I would probably have been incapable of following any of the guidance being taught here - why? Because I acted entirely on my emotions, whatever they were....

I can identify with your comment about learning at 25. That made me laugh. I have said more than once that you are good at examining what is happening, and figuring out what to do about it. I think you would be a good manager. You also have experience with patience. Patience is necessary in a good manager. My brother managed a business for an absentee owner. Sometimes the owner would come on site, and fire an employee who was in the middle of the three month training. (for some small error.) My brother finally quit over it. He said the owner wasn't there from day to day, and had no idea if the person was doing well or not, but he had no patience for small mistakes. That's why I say that good mothers often are good managers. You have to learn patience to be a good parent.

In my reading, at the moment (I've covered all kinds of interesting (NOT) stuff like budgets, strategic planning, costing, working with people, power, influence, authority, etc...)

Much of it is boring. I can do a budget, and you have to know how, but ours is much the same from year to year now, and I don't do it unless I have projected some big change. Some of the other things become second nature, and you don't think about them much after you learn how. You DO need to learn how though.

...and at the moment, I'm on "Problem solving and decision making". Decision making is really grabbing my attention (I have a few problems to solve and a few decisions that could be made....grins again). It's great because I am reading about all the techniques there are to approach problem-solving and decision-making.....great stuff....then they ask "How do you approach solving problems and making decisions in your personal life?" and the answer is - LOL! Really! I realize (a little late in the game, I admit) that all the most important decisions in my life have probably been made with very little rational thought and mostly purely on emotion. Business decisions, management decisions have to be made on a rational basis....but we grant ourselves license to act purely on our emotions in our personal lives.

I have learned to gather the information, do best case and worst case scenarios, and if the worst case won't put me out of business, and the middle of the road will help, I make a decision, and take it to God for confirmation. Sometimes he tells me NO. Sometimes I decide the worst case is too dangerous, and he tells me yes anyway, but usually he agrees with me. I realize I can make listen mistakes, but I think it works well.

I also pray and meditate a lot on the anger issue. I have been on the receiving end of a lot of serious anger in my life, and have also expressed myself very angrily at times. How can we deal with these feelings in a way that doesn't hurt others, and yet still get some feeling of satisfaction, in other words, we are angry for a reason...something upsets us about the way someone else has behaved, usually - they have done something we don't like, or created a problem that we feel we have to solve...sometimes we feel it is not fair that we have to solve a problem created by someone else, so we seethe with resentment, which festers.

I see you pray and meditate too. I think it really helps. Both for decisions, and anger problems. You are right, we ARE angry for a reason, and unless we deal with the root cause, the problems comes back over and over again. I am getting better about solving problems created by others, unless they do the same thing over and over. In that case, I often turn it back to them and let they figure it out. (Or attempt to.)

(I'm just going with my flow right now...I hope you know that what I am saying I am applying to myself, too, so I hope you don't feel I am "preaching" at you....) - well, as I have been looking carefully at these different methods for problem-solving, and decison-making, it strikes me that when we are angry, it is because we perceive that there is a problem....and we can't feel relaxed until the issue is resolved in a way that is satisfactory to us.

This was very enjoyable for me to read. Didn't notice any preaching at all. If you have time tonight, come by after the dishes are done, and W and I will sit on the swing out front, and talk with you about this. It's a good topic for evening conversation on the front porch.

I think that is why we fester, and it all comes spilling out when our resentment is triggered...because we still have not resolved the issue which is bothering us.

Agreed. Especially the huge issues you have been facing the last 4 or 5 years. Of course, with SM, you have faced it since you were small. It is worse when you can't see a solution.

It is necessary to take the time to calm down - anger is the most powerful emotion there is, besides love....anger is so powerful, it can kill...so it is useless trying to resolve an issue when we are in the grip of anger. Any solution we might try to thrash through will be clouded by very powerful emotions.

Agree to this also. As I said, I have learned to wait. The need to resolve the problem, and the knowledge that I am too angry to talk rationally.......... often drives me nuts. Oh well....... LOL.


You strike me as being a rational person, ss, and I am sure that you probably use these kinds of techniques when you are facing decisions you have to make about your business.....that's not to say that I think you should be cold-hearted about the issues you want to resolve with your family or your wife....it has just struck me that in that space when you withdraw to try to control your anger, that if you take the time to go through this process, you will end up finding a way towards a solution to the issue in question, and you may be able to go back and approach the issue with your loved one in a different frame of mind.

When I take the time, things nearly always work themselves out for the better. Rational thought does wonders for a dispute. Often we wonder why it upset us in the first place. Proof to some that there really is a devil.

I have also been struck by the continual advice to consult your employees - to gather their input.....that employees are a lot happier when they feel that they are being listened to, and are able to contribute (I know my job is vastly improved by my boss having this approach with me, in stark contrast to my previous boss). It strikes me that I could do better at "consulting" with my boys - of course, I AM the boss - but I think I could be better about "gathering information" i.e. allowing them to participate more, and to voice their feelings about certain things.

This is true - employees do better when they know their input is valuable. Of course, they can do great damage if they make a wrong choice too. It's hard to balance the two........ safety, and input from those who lack experience. You are correct to compare it to a family. There are some decisions that are mostly safe - what color of shirt do you want to wear? And others that may not be so safe - "Dad, can I use the chain saw to help cut down that tree?"


To go back to the decision-making process....once you feel you have some mastery over the process - time out, take a deep breath, calm down - then start processing the problem - state the problem to yourself, state your ideal objective, brainstorm solutions, brainstorm ALTERNATIVES, then evaluate the alternatives, try to decide on which is the BEST solution - OK, I can see you being good at this, ss -

My problem (often) is getting others to buy in to the process. Both my families, and my employees. Sometimes a person wants what they want, and they won't listen to another point of view. Kind of like a person in the middle of an A.

Then, perhaps on issues that are not likely to suddenly require the use of a fire extinguisher, try to practice this whole process with her, and the rest of the family - (apparently, group decision making is called "brainstorming") - I bet you already do this!-) For the times when you feel you are going to explode, you will probably always need to get breathing space between yourself and the trigger to your anger, but perhaps it will get easier as time goes on, to find a solution to what is triggering the rage....

We use brainstorming all the time. I so enjoy the way you word your comments. It's easy to understand what you mean, and it's so helpful to read when thinking about how to solve problems. We brainstorm family vacations, what to have for dinner on special occasions, and all kinds of things. You have to have guidelines (no, I am afraid we can't list "murder her in her sleep" as a way to stop your sister from bothering you. Do you have any other ideas?" )


See, it's all new to me - I get excited about new stuff - I want to share.-)

It sounds like you already know most of this stuff. I think I am seeing someone excited because she has already been using the theory, and didn't realize it.

I am just going to throw this out there....it might give you some creative ideas you can use....

It always helps to review. Thanks. !!

I'll wait for comments on your days away, and the conclusions you came to while you were gone.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/15/08 08:30 PM
HI LIR !!!

I see I made a lot of typos in that last post, but I am not able to edit them now. ( I think we only get three days)
Oh well.

I am sure if I ask in a nice way, you will forgive me.
Please?

I was thinking about this thread last weekend as we were driving, and I had another good idea about anger to pass along, but I can't remember it now. If it comes back to me, I'll post it.

We drove 375 miles home on Saturday, and by the time I got home, It had slipped my mind. One of the twins is quite an artist, and she submitted a painting to the state duck stamp contest. The winners from each state send their painting to a national contest, and the winner over all has their painting used on a postage stamp. Anyway, our D took third place in her age group, and we took her to the award ceremony (and luncheon.) She had a good time, and the rest of us did also.

Anger can be useful as a catalyst for change. Sometimes we are stuck, and we avoid making decisions (which is a decision also, but that's another discussion) Anger can help set us in motion sometimes when nothing else will. Sometimes it helps people do what they should have done all along, but often it sets them to doing things they ought not to do.

Logic is a big help - and you did a good job of talking about how it comes into play - or should come into play. We do well to know our selves, and how we react to things. That can help us know if we ought to go ahead and act, or wait. I tend to wait too long when I am not angry, and act too soon when I am. Thinking about how I do things helps me to moderate my action. I can learn to act even when I am not angry, and I can learn to wait, and think when I am. Asking for God's help makes a huge difference for me. He can put it into my heart to know what course to take, and he also helps me follow through.

I still have a long way to go though........ but am working on it.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/29/08 10:39 AM
So sorry it has been so long!

I am OK, and I think your point about anger as a catalyst is a good one....anger can really motivate us to change things we need to change, and anger brings a lot of energy into play....channelling that and remaining respectful to others is the challenge....

Things have been kind of hotting up at home between my sister and my Dad....so I have found myself as a kind of go-between....my Dad calls me and asks me how my sister is doing....I try to relay what's going on with my sister....she's under a lot of stress and experiencing health problems now....and I try to relay to her how I think he is doing, and what he says....it isn't a bad thing for me to be this kind of cushion....I am aware that I have to be scrupulously accurate about what I say to each of them so that I don't end up relaying false impressions....my sister and I would both like to be able to ring him directly, but we can't because of my SM....when I talk to my Dad (it's only been about 5-6 times), he only is able to talk briefly, then he says he has to go, and I can tell it's because my SM is coming into view. While this may sound strange, I am actually amused by this situation - that my Dad has to sneak around to call his own daughters. Just like a WS having to live with the OW, my Dad is now having to pay the REAL price of his affair....an affair that happened 40 years ago.....

In addition, I am back at work, and running like a dog with its tongue hanging out, all the time!

The weather here has finally started to warm up - we've had two weekends of warm sunny weather - which means it is time to attack the garden, so I have spent hours at a stretch in my vegetable patch last weekend and this weekend, doing heavy digging in preparation for planting....this last weekend we planted one tray of potatos ( I have two trays left to put in) - I have broad beans, onions, carrots, and shallots already on the go.....I plan space for salad greens, broccoli, and squash. I have also spent hours in my back garden, cutting the lawn, pruning, and weeding....it can't wait this time of year, or I will be knee-deep in weeds by next week!

Which brings me to the topic of my H....I think he has been making a big effort to be more helpful than usual, ever since I came back from his Dad's, and I told him that his Dad wants us to let bygones be bygones. This weekend he unexpectedly came up to the vegetable patch, where I was trying to get the potatoes started, and he offered to help: he dug the trenches (the heavy work), and then I laid the potates in and covered them, clearing away the roots of weeds as I went....He stayed about 3 hours with me and I know I wouldn't have got it done if he hadn't come up to help me. He has made an extra effort to be there for me, coming home to help take YS to his doctor's appointment, and helping with the laundry and the washing up.....I have been making sure that I thank him for everything he does, and I have also been "getting in his space" by touching him a lot - just patting him on the back, standing near him, and the occasional hug. Last week, he gave me a spontaneous hug (one of the only ones he has ever given me) - that really surprised me...because it is so rare, I knew he really meant it....he had asked me to read over a piece of work he has been producing, which I did and I had made my comments on a few corrections and clarifications I thought he could make, and then said I thought it was exceptional work and I was very proud of him....at the end of the day when I was going to bed, he reached out and awkwardly hugged me. Last week, I met up with my friend who teaches Mental Health Law - she is in the country and we had one day to spend together, so she met me here and then we went out for the day....she chatted with H before we went, and when we were out, she said she thought that my H has an "Anxiety Disorder" - she said it is something they are now diagnosing and recognizing....it was like her lightbulbs went on...she said he does not have a personality disorder, he has an anxiety disorder....he is wound tight as a rubber band all the time, and he is anxious and worried all the time about whether or not something is going to get done, or if it is going to get done the right way, and like a rubber band, he can snap if he is wound too tight....in fact, the medication I am on is one which is used to treat GAD, General Anxiety Disorder.....really, this does seem to fit my H to a T.....and it's hard on the people around him....we (his family) get stressed because HE is so stressy....he, of course, doesn't recognize that it is HIM who is stressed out, he thinks it's something WE are doing which is upsetting him.....well, that's her assessment, and she works as a legal advocate for the mentally ill.....interesting....

(I've just been interrupted by the roofers my H has called in to do some work on our roof, which is the original slate roof on this house and 114 years old - been through at least one hurricane and many gale-force winds - but needs some TLC at the moment - it's also pouring rain here, so they may put off some of the work until tomorrow - I need to go to the bank today urgently - I hope I don't have to stay here all day while they take my roof off....)

I am having the feeling that my H is more involved with us again....his family, and me...so it may be that there is a thaw going on here.....I hope this is good news.....

I think I am just going to continue working away at what I am doing that seems to be getting positive results....

I have to "down tools" as they say here, and get to work at being tea lady for these roofers.....

I hope you and your family are all well, and that your garden is flourishing.

Many thanks for all your prayers....they must be helping....

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 05/03/08 05:17 AM
This last post of yours is a very positive one.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have your H back in the marriage with all his heart.

How do they work on the roof in a pouring rain?

It's so different here to work on roofs. We often go 4 or 5 months without rain, and the forecasts are pretty accurate these days. They sometimes take the whole roof off, and leave it for weeks before they put the new one back.

Are your sisters problems serious? Do we need to pray for her as well as you?

I am sorry for your father. To be deprived of the company of ones daughters would be he11 on earth. I can't imagine it. It's hard to have much hope for his situation at this point in his life, but one still tries to have hope. Do you think it will ever change?

In addition, I am back at work, and running like a dog with its tongue hanging out, all the time!

Not a pretty picture. I sure hope your health is better than it was.
That, or you and I need to have a talk. (SS looks stern.)

FIL must have made a good impression on you. It sounds like he helped.

Have to go - W says it's time for bed.

Very happy about your H helping, and acting closer. Really hope it continues to improve.

Hope your boys are well too, and thanks for the update on the garden. Ours is doing well.... should I post another photo of it for spring?

Hope your weekend is a good GREAT one.

SS


Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 05/04/08 04:29 PM
Hi ss,

Grabbing 10 minutes here....

Spent 5 hours in my vegetable garden yesterday, digging over another plot for more potatoes. H called me on my mobile while I was there and said he would be able to plant them on Monday (tomorrow)...another sign that he wants to be helpful.

Today I am doing laundry and trying to study. I get very little studying done when I have to be Mom.....my brain goes into Mom mode and can't stop paying attention to all the stuff that needs to be done.

I think these medications are helping me....it seems I worry less, however, it is also much lighter and warmer now, so my mood could be lighter because it is the "good" time of year for me. I have brought this up with my counselor and asked her to help me monitor my mood as this year goes on, to see if I start to feel down again when autumn comes.

OS is starting Confirmation....he will be going to church for his program every Sunday, for hour and a half sessions with his Confirmation group, followed by Mass, which I and YS will attend with him. I'm glad he wants to do this...it has to be his choice. H and I accompanied him to the initial Parent and Candidates meeting. I feel uncomfortable at these meetings since I feel like we are not a "real" couple....I feel like I am lying to everyone in the room, even when I am not the WS. My H appears to all intents and purposes to be a jolly and respectable husband and father. Our son, though is visibly withdrawn, in typical surly 15-yr old mode...I know this is partly a reaction to his dad and partly his own nature....he IS shy and also intense....he is very aware of other people and situations and I suspect it grates on him that my H appears (to him) to be putting on a show...he has told me that he doesn't respect his Dad because he thinks he doesn't live his faith, but that that doesn't make HIM feel like there is something wrong with faith itself....or his religion.....he has separated his faith from what he sees as his father's hypocrisy.....I am wondering if I should go to our priest who is leading the Confirmation class and let him know what is happening at home.....that my H had an affair, that he says he doesn't love me, but that we still live together and sleep in separate bedrooms...that I don't really know whether my H is still in this affair....and what impact this might be having on OS and YS....it seems to me dishonest to not tell our priest the truth, especially if it would help him understand my son....

These are the questions going around in my head....

And H trying to be helpful....

FIL wants us to start sleeping together again. He seemed to be saying to me, when I was staying with him, and we tried to talk about it, that he thought I might have over-reacted to my H receiving the equivalent of too much admiration (fans) from fans who admired him professionally...I think this is wishful thinking on his part, although there is some truth in that....in other words, he didn't think it was something worth losing our marriage over....so my feeling is that FIL is not totally on my side, in that he wants to believe that his son is not the kind of man who would mess around on his wife....he is very elderly and wants desperately for us to make up and put it behind us....I haven't approached H any more than just being quietly kind to him.

Here is the thing. I am now 50, I will be 51 this week. I went through menopause this year. So there you have it....I am no longer young, and it DOES seem to matter....I think that this is part of it for my H....he is attracted to younger women, BECAUSE they are younger. He just doesn't find me attractive anymore...no matter what I do, how good I look for my age, and I don't think I look half bad, either....he is just not interested. Biological. All the psychological reasons come into play here....and his faith....do you ditch your wife just because she gets old, even if your faith tells you you cannot? How much easier it is to be a Muslim and just take a second, younger wife! Now that I am standing in these shoes, I ask myself these questions....I can try to understand what is happening with my H, but it hurts me.....to me, there is something that has to happen in marriage, and that is tenderness....the cherishing part. If you cherish your wife, and honour her, the love will follow...

My friend who teaches Mental Health Law is convinced that my H has an "anxiety disorder". If that is so, and I think it is, then he doesn't have "normal" responses to things - he is anxious and feels stressed most of the time....he achieves in his work because performing is something that requires that kind of adreniline rush....

Well, I need to go...those are just some of my thoughts....

Thank you for listening. I'm going to church now and will pray about things there....

LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 05/06/08 10:16 PM
Did your H help you plant potatoes on Monday?

This is interesting. I am trying not to get excited, but him helping is a very good sign.

Today I am doing laundry and trying to study. I get very little studying done when I have to be Mom.....my brain goes into Mom mode and can't stop paying attention to all the stuff that needs to be done.

I thought all women were excellant multi taskers, and could work on everything at the same time. wink
I know I AM NOT.

I suppose that is one of the reasons that ten days away was good for you.


I am wondering if I should go to our priest who is leading the Confirmation class and let him know what is happening at home.....that my H had an affair, that he says he doesn't love me, but that we still live together and sleep in separate bedrooms...that I don't really know whether my H is still in this affair....and what impact this might be having on OS and YS....it seems to me dishonest to not tell our priest the truth, especially if it would help him understand my son....

These are the questions going around in my head....


If it is affecting your son's performance, then tell them as soon as possible. I believe at least one Priest already knows?

You don't know if H is still in the A. If he is, they ought to knwow. The signs I am seeing lead me to believe he is not.
I know you don't want to snoop. Perhaps 6 months to see what happens would not be out of line. I would hate to report he is still in an active A if he is not.

And H trying to be helpful....

That's what I mean. He hasn't been this helpful for years.

Has he?

FIL wants us to start sleeping together again. He seemed to be saying to me, when I was staying with him, and we tried to talk about it, that he thought I might have over-reacted to my H receiving the equivalent of too much admiration (fans) from fans who admired him professionally...I think this is wishful thinking on his part, although there is some truth in that....in other words, he didn't think it was something worth losing our marriage over....so my feeling is that FIL is not totally on my side, in that he wants to believe that his son is not the kind of man who would mess around on his wife....he is very elderly and wants desperately for us to make up and put it behind us....I haven't approached H any more than just being quietly kind to him.

I have been wanting to bring this up too. We know that SF is a top need for most men. There won't be recovery until he is meeting your needs, and you are meeting his. To be frank, I didn't know how to bring it up........ you have been hurt so much, and no one wants you to suffer additional hurt. I don't know if you ought to be sleeping with H, but I know it would be very helpful for him. In some ways it would be helpful for you, but it could be very painful if it does not turn out well. And this doesn't take into account that he hasn't been tested, and all the physical details associated with someone who has been in an A.
I am not recommending you go ahead, I am just relating my thoughts. I don't know how to get the two of you back together and still take into account all you would need to be safe.

I can just imagine what would happen if you said "Honey, it's time to get back together, why don't you go get tested for STD's this week."

I'm not suggesting that either...... but I can't come up with any suggesting that sounds good.

Here is the thing. I am now 50, I will be 51 this week. I went through menopause this year. So there you have it....I am no longer young, and it DOES seem to matter....I think that this is part of it for my H....he is attracted to younger women, BECAUSE they are younger. He just doesn't find me attractive anymore...no matter what I do, how good I look for my age, and I don't think I look half bad, either....he is just not interested. Biological.

So what do I say here? (how do I give the best encouragement?)
I am no longer young either, but my W seems to love me. (I turn 53 this year.) You KNOW it is not you that is the problem. You know that it is him. You know you are loveable. At least, I hope you do. I can't comment on every thing about you, becaue In many ways, we are strangers, but I do know that you are a daughter of God who wants to do what is right, and that tells me all I need to know about the most importan things.

I think you are saying that it matters to HIM.
Remember that the MB program is all about getting people to fall in love.
Huge personal defects aside (some people are bent on sinning, and nothing can stop them,)this MB stuff works. Meeting needs and avoiding love busters does bring love back.
I still don't know how to tell you to get from here to there, but you will continue to think on it, I know you will.

Please understand.... I am not telling you that I think it's time, and I am not saying what would be best. I don't know what is best. I worry that any attempt to reconcile would hurt you all over again, and for sure you don't need that..... It's just that I would like to see the two of you in love again. I can see you holding hands, and all else that married people do when they are deeply in love. That includes joint parenting in the best possible way.
I wish I knew what to say. I hope what I have said is not distressing.


All the psychological reasons come into play here....and his faith....do you ditch your wife just because she gets old, even if your faith tells you you cannot?

Do you believe he wants to ditch you?
His being helpful lately........ is a good sign to me.
It occurs to me that you have had a long time to think about these things, and you are speculating about his thoughts and his reasoning. We all know the correct answers to the questions you are asking. We don't know what his thinking is on them.

How much easier it is to be a Muslim and just take a second, younger wife!

I have thought about that one...... and I think it would be more difficult than I can even imagine. I can't even begin to discuss the problems it would bring.
Understand what you are saying though. It wouldn't work for your H to try doing that publicly. Good grief, I can't even bring myself to joke about this. I should try to relax.


Now that I am standing in these shoes, I ask myself these questions....I can try to understand what is happening with my H, but it hurts me.....to me, there is something that has to happen in marriage, and that is tenderness....the cherishing part. If you cherish your wife, and honour her, the love will follow...

You are correct.
I think you are probably wishing out loud. It humbles me to read your comments. I still hope he gets back on board. May God bring it about.

My friend who teaches Mental Health Law is convinced that my H has an "anxiety disorder". If that is so, and I think it is, then he doesn't have "normal" responses to things - he is anxious and feels stressed most of the time....he achieves in his work because performing is something that requires that kind of adreniline rush....

So how do you cope with that? Or how does he cope with it?
How do you know for sure?

Well, I need to go...those are just some of my thoughts....

I continue to pray that you might find rest. We have unanswered questions, but God knows all. He can, and does continue to do his work all over the world. Count on him for help.

Thank you for listening. I'm going to church now and will pray about things there....

I hope you did get, and are getting answeres.

Ta Ta !

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/24/08 11:04 AM
Hi ss,

First I'd like to apologize for not replying sooner. You have taken time to try to support me and I'm sorry for not coming back to talk to you until now. Sometimes I take away things you suggest, or even if they are not necessarily suggestions, just things that you mention, and I ponder them. I have been quite stressed this last month, but I am keeping my head above water, I think.

I have made an appointment to see the priest at our church who is in charge of Confirmation - he's the assistant pastor, and he has been at our church for 2 years - he used to be a bank manager, apparently, and he seems to be intelligent and kind. My son likes him and has gained a respect for him. I suppose I feel anxious about talking to new people about my problems with H, because I am anxious about making the situation any worse, as I feel that my other attempts to get counseling didn't work out for the better. But my focus is on my son now and I want him to be able to get the support that he needs. I spoke to my son about it, asked him how he would feel if I went to the priest and told him about what was happening with me and H - my counselor suggested I take this approach so that my son would not feel I had gone behind his back. My son said "you mean, so I won't have to feel embarassed?" Which told me that he WOULD like to be able to talk to the priest, but he would find it embarassing to have to explain that his parents are having problems, as teenagers are very embarassed about things in their lives that are not "perfect", and are also very loyal to their parents. They don't want to betray their secrets to people outside the family. He needs me to pave the way for him. I said "yeah", and he said "That's fine with me, it doesn't bother me at all!"

I told my H that I felt I wanted to go talk to the priest, as I feel our problems are affecting OS, and that OS may have questions, spiritual questions, that have to do with us, that he may feel he needs to ask about, and he should be able to talk to the priest about anything, since he is going through Confirmation. Every time I want to talk to my H, I have to choose a time when he is alone, which means going into his "music room" - really, it's his office and den, he hides out in there working away - he is often on his laptop, working on music, standing with the laptop on top of one of his instruments. This means when I enter the room he has his back to me - and usually, that is the way it stays - I try to talk to him while he is on his laptop, with his back to me. He doesn't turn around, but he listens. So that's the set up. So I say that I want to go talk to the priest, etc. He says that he doesn't think that's a good idea. I say why? He says I should just stay out of it, not muddy the waters for OS. I say what do you mean? He says he doesn't think OS Confirmation has anything to do with our marital problems. I say, "but what is Confirmation, but the inviting of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, to enter our life - that is what this sacrament is about - I don't feel I can stand in that church before the altar and pretend that we are a couple who are a living witness to the love of God and the Spirit of Truth and that we will be able to guide him in the Spirit when our marriage is so broken". He started to get upset then and said I didn't have to stand up there, it was the godparents who would stand with OS and that had nothing to do with us. I said didn't he think that the state of our marriage had any impact on OS? He answered that he didn't think our marriage problems were relevant to OS Confirmation. Remembering Orchid and "reverse babble", I said "OK, I'll tell the priest that you don't think it's relevant," and I went to leave the room. He exploded then and shouted "Now you're being disingenuous!!"....what does that mean anyway? That implies that I entered into the conversation in order to trap him, which I didn't. I approached him in good faith, as I always do, and I try to deal with what comes out of him. So that's how it was left with him. I just skedaddled and I haven't said anything more about it to him, and it's taken me two weeks to make the appointment with the priest. When he fights back, it makes me retreat for a time, then I try to come back to pushing forward. So here I am.

I have also made a call to his homeroom teacher - this is the teacher that he will have for the whole of his secondary school career - he's been with him now for two years, and has three years to go. My son likes and respects him. I just got off the phone with him, and I feel better for it. I said that my H and I were having marital problems, and that I felt that it was affecting OS - that some of the guardedness and surliness in his behaviour is down to the anger he feels towards his Dad and the tension that exists at home. He said that he had noticed that OS seemed a bit down the last couple of weeks when he is usually quite happy and cheerful - I said that we had been having problems for a long time, several years, and that I felt that it had been a factor with OS during that time, but I hadn't wanted to talk to anyone about it, because it was difficult to talk about and because I was trying to get help for us, but that all of our attempts at counseling over the years have failed and I felt that there was really no solution. He said he understood how difficult it could be and that now that I had spoken to him, he would be able to try to offer OS support where he needed it. He asked me if I wanted him to make an announcement in the staff room that there were problems at home with Daniel, so that other staff could just be aware and be more sensitive when they are dealing with him, and I said yes. He also said he would speak to his head of year, another teacher that Daniel knows well and respects (he's a big sportsman - man's man, you know) and make him aware of what I had told him. I felt that the conversation went well...I have been impressed with how humane and supportive the staff have always been there - he said that it was nearly the end of year now, (they break up next week), so the pressure was off him in terms of work, and next week is all fun stuff - trips out and activities, charity walk, etc. I said that I expected this situation to be ongoing - that OS would need support next year, and the year after.....

I have a feeling now of having done the right thing. My counselor and you both said that if you feel your problems are affecting your children, then the people who are in a position of caring for them (their teachers, etc.) should know. I feel better for having done that now....I was starting to see that OS needs support and I am trying to pave the way for him getting the support he needs outside....

I haven't done this for YS, but I am thinking about it, too.

-----

Now I'll try to go back to H - you have picked up on him being helpful. H's "helpfulness". There's a book called "The Five Love Languages : how to express heartfelt commitment to your mate" - by Gary Chapman, and basically the author says that we all have one, maybe two, primary "love languages" that we "speak" - these are "Words of Affirmation", "Quality Time", "Receiving Gifts", "Acts of Service", and "Physical Touch". Our problems as couples arise when we speak different love languages - when that happens, we don't see that the other person is showing his love, and we feel unloved - the other person also doesn't see when we are saying I love you and also feels unloved. Well, as far as I can tell, if my H has a "love language", it would be "Acts of Service" - this is his "helpfulness"....he never gives me compliments on my appearance, or what I do, except to praise my cooking and to thank me for it, or to thank me for other things that I do. He never gives me Quality Time. He only gives me gifts on my birthday and at Christmas - never anything spontaneous, and he asks me for a list so he can get me something that is on my list. He never touches me. What he does do is "Acts of Service" - helping. Sometimes he is very helpful. But it has to come from him. He will usually do something I ask him to do if I ask him in the right way - "Would you please go to the store and buy me some dishwashing liquid?" "Would you mind picking up YS from school today?" that kind of thing. He can be very co-operative. It was in fact, his helpfulness that confused me and convinced me that he really cared about me, when we were "dating" - even though he appeared to blow hot and cold towards me, he would always eventually show up at my door trying to be helpful. He would find something that he could be helpful with.

My question to myself is this : is this a "love language", or is this just a dynamic that he uses to try to keep people close to him, to try to engage with and exercise control in their lives, or something that he uses to square himself with himself, i.e. I fixed the back fence, so I can feel good about myself now, whatever she might say.....in other words, is he "buying" the right to feel good about himself by being helpful, even though he steadfastly refuses to engage in any other activity that would mean "engagement" in a relationship, like

1. Talking about our relationship, talking about our feelings, talking about us, talking about the future, talking about anything....
2. Taking steps towards couples counselling...
3. Trying to prove his trustworthiness by.....
4. Making any effort to seek an answer to the problems we have....

NO. He doesn't do anything. He just seems to want to go on the way we are indefinitely. Living together like we are two separate people who just happen to have two kids. It's like our marriage never existed for him. He doesn't look back.

He could very well be in an affair and I wouldn't know it, because he helped even when he WAS in an affair. I think it is something he does that makes him feel good about himself. When he is helpful, I do thank him, I try to show my appreciation for him, and I do give him credit. The big problem is that my "love languages" are completely different. I'd say my primary love language is Physical Touch. If I don't get a hug, or if I am not touched in an affectionate way, I feel decidedly unloved. I can't help it. I NEED affection like a plant needs water. I don't think that's abnormal. I don't need excess amounts of affection, but I do need affection. I also need Quality Time. I don't get any of that and never have. H's response years ago when I tried to discuss this with him was "I see you enough at home, why would I want to go out with you?" which left me frankly, dumbfounded. You don't realize your spouse is even thinking along these lines until you try painfully to broach these subjects and you find out that he's thinking like an alien!! I don't care much about gifts and I appreciate Acts of Service, I also appreciate Words of Affirmation, but Physical Touch and Quality Time are the way I seem to be programmed. I have tried to find out what H's love languages are, and I think they are Words of Affirmation and Acts of Service....now if we were working together to make our marriage work, I think we could work something out, but H will not work in that way and has never shown any inclination to even try....all he wants to do is do his music...and it seems to me that making an effort towards meeting any of my needs is too much for him....he has had these affairs, and having affairs means you never have to work at a relationship...

You mentioned SF as a need for men and that until his need for SF is met, it will be difficult for him to be thinking about meeting my other needs. FIL said that he thinks we need to start sleeping together again. Well, I tried to open this with my H in an indirect way. He was upstairs in the loft bedroom where I sleep, checking out the roof tiles and he knocked against the bed, which is propped up on a paint can on one side, and the end of the bed often comes out of the posts and has to be knocked back in again. Been that way for years. Need a new bed, yup. He swore at it. I noticed that, so later I said, "If you ever wanted to consider sleeping together again, we would have to get a new bed." I think this surprised him. He looked uncomfortable and didn't say anything. He went out of the room, then he popped back in again and said "I think you should replace the bed in any case." That's all, and he has said nothing since.

Last of all, 4 June was our 20th wedding anniversary. Last year he gave me a card, and I gave him a card. I have tried over this year, to open dialogue between us, to make space for him to reconcile with me. This year, there was nothing from him. No acknowledgement at all, and it was deliberate. I left him a card in the morning, not a soupy one, but I was determined to mark the day, and let him know, so I left him one saying Dear H, Happy Anniversary, Yours, (me). We both worked that day, as normal. I made dinner, and he never mentioned it to me. Finally, after the kids were in bed, I said "Did you get my card?" and he said "Oh...yes I did. Thank you very much." So polite. That was it. I just felt, well, you know that's 20 years of my life gone. And yes, I do feel very upset by it. I've been thinking 20 years is enough. 20 years is enough to give away to someone like this.

What I have been coming around to, and I know it is taking me a long time, is to say that he doesn't meet my needs, and he doesn't seem to even think that meeting my needs was part of the deal with marriage, and he doesn't seem to want to learn that meeting my needs needs to be part of the deal for the marriage to work....his attitude is basically, if it makes me happy, it's good, and if it makes you happy at the same time that it makes me happy, that's good, too, but if what makes me happy doesn't make you happy, then that's too bad.

I have to say that I am not happy, I have done the best I can, and I can't do any more. I have been talking it through with my counselor. There are two separate depressions. The reactive depression that I feel from being trapped in this R with my H. And the depression, shyness, insecurity and lack of confidence that I would feel which is a result of my family background, which I would still have to deal with, even if I were not living with H. If my H and I separated, and the boys lived with me, I would still be dealing with the depression which comes from my family background. I haven't gone into any of that here, but that has also been a factor this month - the rift between my sister and my Dad. Thankfully, my Dad is now calling me again, and we have been able to talk.

I've also seen the doctor again, and they want to take a good look at my insides, so they are putting me in for more scans, a laparoscopy and a hysteroscopy. I don't care anymore what they do to me, just check it out and deal with it if they find anything, otherwise I am happy taking these pain tablets.

I'm plodding on with my studies, but it has been slow this month. I am looking forward to the summer when I can have long hours to commit to studying. Work is going very well. I love my job.

I think that if I could cope financially, I would separate from H. But when I look at the real nitty-gritty of it, it just doesn't seem possible. We have a low income, even with both of us working. With the mortgage situation what it is now, neither H or I would be able to get a mortgage we could afford. We are making it financially now only by staying together, since we do not have a mortgage, and our incomes go to our living expenses, pensions and some savings. Thankfully, we have no consumer debt. It is a shame we have these problems because otherwise we would be doing well as a family. I have to look at everything before I make any big decisions. When I think about separating from him, my old age also stares me in the face like a ghoul....what will happen to me when I am old?

I take comfort in my garden. I am working hard with the vegetables, although we have had tons of rain the last month....so there are tons of weeds! But I finally have a lot of my own salad, and broad beans...I've got carrots and onions, and loads of potatoes, and I'm putting in zucchini now to go through the summer....leeks and broccoli have to go in soon, and then just lots of digging to prepare the ground for next year.....

I hope you are well. And that all your family are well. Thanks again for listening. I'll get there in the end.

LIR



Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/24/08 09:18 PM
Hi LIR !!

I don't have time to say much, but I will say a little bit.

1. This life was meant to be difficult. It's by design.
We learn patience, love, and we become...... bit by bit, the person that God wants us to become.

2. You are doing well.

I wish we had time to talk. Maybe you should come by for dinner tonight. I'll ask W, but I'm sure she'll say yes.

About 6:00, and you don't need to bring anything.

Really, you are doing well. I don't know if it's hard for you to see, but it is plain to me.

You are learning the things you need to learn. It's slow, but you are becoming the person you are supposed to become. At least, I believe you are.

Thank you for the update. It says a lot. I try to read between the lines. Sometimes I wonder if my assessment is accurate.

You sound brave, and you sound reasonably well...... considering.
I know there is always a gap between reasonably well, and well.

I need to go for now, but I'll list numbers 3 and 4 first.

3. People care.

4. God will help.


SS - who is wishing for more time.
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/24/08 11:09 PM
Thanks so much, ss.

You do seem to say the right things. Because, you know, I REALLY REALLY want life to be easy!! LOL. It's true! So it is good to remember this - it's supposed to be difficult -

Thanks for the dinner invitation. I'll be right over!-)

Tonight OS played a solo violin piece in the school concert - he was second to last on the program - I delivered him to the school and then went to pick up his violin teacher. We are having problems with our 2nd car, so my H rode his bicycle up to the school to get there and got there in time to hear OS. OS did really well - did his teacher proud - really good. When I was driving back with OS alone, he talked to me and said it is his Head of Department he is really trying to do well for - he has performed twice on the piano this year and made mistakes that he was really unhappy with himself for - but this time, he did really well and he was pleased with himself because he wants to live up to his teacher's expectations - he said that when he is angry with himself for performing badly, it is because he doesn't want to let his teacher down - he thinks his teacher is entitled to expect a lot out of him. I was impressed with this because it's the first time he has articulated the respect he has for his Head of Department, and that he wants to live up to his teacher's expectations. I have these times with my son, as I drive him to his lesson every week, and he chats to me in the car. I am hoping that the way that we talk together and the fact that he expresses himself to me, his thoughts and feelings, will lay the foundation for him to be able to talk easily with his wife someday. I also hug him and he gives me lots of hugs and reassurance - my counselor told me that he is mirroring back to me the way that I have treated him and she said that I deserved to give myself credit for raising him to be able to give comfort when comfort is needed.

I've got to go now - need to sleep, but I wanted to share with you some good stuff, for a change.

Thank you for caring. And I have to trust that God will help.

Need more time, too!
Bye for now.
LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/30/08 05:33 AM
I try to be an optimist. I have always wished that your H would come back to the marriage. Always looking for some sign of hope.

I do not know what will happen. I fear for your H. There IS good in him. I know there is. However, unless he turns his heart to God, and accepts the sacrifice of his Savior, he will never have peace, and will never be happy. The psalmist says "all is vanity". Others call the vain things we seek after "dross."

Dross - waste or foreign matter : impurity.
Something that is base, trivial, or inferior.

There is no happiness in seeking after dross, yet, he appears to be casting off the things of real worth.

Years ago I was trying to be an optimist when writing to another person on MB. Another poster came by and said in essence -
The evidence is that your WS is not coming back. It's been quite a while, and there is no evidence of change of any kind. They still act like a WS, they still do the things a WS does, and they are not committed to the Marriage.

I hate posting things like this, but if I am a true friend, I have to do it from time to time. The question remains - what will you do? I understand your decisions, and I am not suggesting you do things differently. It's always good to confirm your choices with God.

Usually, I give more background for my thoughts. Would that I could tonight, and perhaps soften this text somewhat.

I want to comment on more of your post, but I type, and erase, and type, and erase. The words won't seem to come.

There are many things I don't know. I don't know if your H will ever change, and love you, and meet your needs.

I do know that God knows what you ought to do. I do know that he lives, and that he loves you. I know that if you stay close to God, and continue to petition him for help, you will get the help you seek.

It is so easy to misunderstand or be hurt by what one reads here. Look to God for understanding. Read with a prayer on your lips for help. Pray to know how to proceed from day to day.

It humbles me to read your posts. I know you love your boys. I know you try to do what is best, and that if you knew exactly what God wanted from day to day, you would do it with exactness.

With faith like this, you will get help.

Sometimes, in our struggles, we wonder, and we doubt. We go from day to day, wondering how things will turn out. Life can be lonely, and difficult. We try to keep busy, so as not to think about things.

I think it is human nature to want a rest.
The scriptures talk about the course we should follow -

Heb. 12: 1
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.


It's hard to run when we get tired. It's hard to have patience when we can't even see the finish line, let alone know if we have the strength to continue to run.

Believe that God will keep his promises to YOU, for he surely will.

From Isaiah 52

6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.


He has power to redeem his people. He always has, and he does now, and he always will.

I nearly always go really long, but I'll close tonight with this.

God bless you, and your family.

SS








Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/18/08 11:49 PM
We have been on vacation, then home for a few days, then out of town for a wedding. I really wanted to comment on some of the things you said, but I didn't have time to write more before we left.

Hope all of you are well.
Well, and happy.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/24/08 01:55 PM
Thank you ss,

I'm sorry I have been away so long. I worked hard the last two weeks of term, had my last day of work first week of July, so I've been off work now almost a month....thinking I would get a lot done this summer, but my appointment for day surgery - a laparoscopy and hysteroscopy came through really fast, and I had that procedure last week...the good news is that everything is completely normal, they found nothing wrong with me, which I am very relieved about, so I guess the pain I am experiencing is to do with a damaged nerve somewhere on my left side...the pain tablets I am taking really help, so I am a lot less worried about it now....anyway, the surgery set me back a bit.....

Home now with the boys every day, in one way it feels much better, not to be stressed by having to go out to my job every day....I definitely needed to rest....

H has been very good....getting me to the hospital and picking me up...and it is true that he has been very helpful, much more the way he used to be....

However, he is still difficult....he hasn't really changed at all in some respects.....can still be explosive and still reacts badly when I ask about his whereabouts....

I have kind of come to the conclusion that he is not ever going to change and it is up to me to decide whether and/or when to leave....

Perhaps he loves me as much as he can...but his problems, whatever they are, intrude into the way he feels and the way he handles things.....there is a dynamic at work that we (everyone who cares about him) don't seem to be able to have any impact on shifting towards a more positive way of relating and behaving...he is like a self-indugent child with his emotions, his desires, and his behaviour....he is bright and happy and holds court, jollying everyone into a good mood, but it doesn't last...as soon as he feels stressed by something he feels he has to do, he becomes someone else....someone determined to put his foot down and rule....it's like being kissed one minute and slapped the next (figuratively).....OS says it's as if he has an alter ego (OS detects the same personality change that I do)...OS is a lot more challenging to him than I am now....he stands up to him, and I know that someday he is going to be able to get away...my counselor has pointed out to me where my sons have really healthy behaviour-of caring and compassion, which they have got from me...so I need to give myself credit there and realize that my boys are growing into good, healthy people....

I just don't think he's ever going to change...because he refuses to even consider that he could, should or might be able to change....to even consider the thought is a cause for resentment for him....if you resist any of his negativity, he puts you down...

I went to talk to the priest before OS Confirmation...he just listened without saying anything to me at all....he asked a few questions but really had nothing to say...he said if I want to come back to talk to him, or if OS wants to talk to him, he would be happy to listen....but to be honest, he didn't have anything to say to me...it was kind of weird I thought...he said that I would just have to decide how long I wanted to live with it, it was up to me...but he didn't think it would help for him to try to talk to my H....so I left it....it is getting harder for me to talk about it. I think I find it most helpful to stick to talking to my counselor.

When I think about leaving H, I realize that he does have good in him, and that if I left him, I would have to leave that good in him in order to get away from the bad....

It's good to be reminded that I should pray and wait for God's confirmation....I haven't had that yet, so I am still here...

I will be away for about three weeks from now--we are going to see my FIL....I'm looking forward to it....my goal is to finish one of my modules this summer and at FIL's I will be able to study....the boys enjoy themselves there, too....I'll let you know how things went when I get back...

I hope all is well with you, and I thank you for looking out for me.....I know things will change for the better at some point....right now, my focus is on the boys, who are doing well so far....

God bless...
LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/27/08 09:47 PM
Hi LIR,
I really hope your summer is going well. Our twins are back in school now, and they are not sure if they like it. I think they like the free and easy summer life. We did a hike in the mountains last week, and I thought of your boys, and what they are doing, and how they are feeling. And of course, I wondered how you were also.

I'm sorry I have been away so long.

I have been worse. I think I sign up for too many things, and it's hard to get them all worked in. It's sometimes difficult to keep the family at the top of the list, but we try to do that.

..... but my appointment for day surgery - a laparoscopy and hysteroscopy came through really fast, and I had that procedure last week...the good news is that everything is completely normal, they found nothing wrong with me, which I am very relieved about, so I guess the pain I am experiencing is to do with a damaged nerve somewhere on my left side...


And how has it been since you last wrote? Are you gaining on it, or is it gaining on you?


Home now with the boys every day, in one way it feels much better, not to be stressed by having to go out to my job every day....I definitely needed to rest....

This made me think quite a bit. Stress takes a huge toll on us. You have had a very stressful life for quite a few years now. I keep wondering if the pain you have been feeling is a by-product of stress. I worry. Doctors are good, but they can't know everything. W and I pray for you often.


H has been very good....getting me to the hospital and picking me up...and it is true that he has been very helpful, much more the way he used to be....

This part is good. I was very glad to read it. I hope it continues.

However, he is still difficult....he hasn't really changed at all in some respects.....can still be explosive and still reacts badly when I ask about his whereabouts....

I have kind of come to the conclusion that he is not ever going to change and it is up to me to decide whether and/or when to leave....



As long as you are there, this choice will be there also. He (we) can change if we want to change. I keep wishing for you, and for him. Life can be good, even in turmoil when a couple is working together, and is in love. Love really is magical.
He cannot be made to see though. And your choices will be there, waiting for you every morning when you wake.

You live under a heavy burden, but God makes these lighter, and there are others (your father for one) who carry more. I will always attempt to help you identify your choices, but won't try to make them for you. You are a mother, that is your guiding light. It is a good thing. Just know that people understand and care.

Perhaps he loves me as much as he can...but his problems, whatever they are, intrude into the way he feels and the way he handles things.....there is a dynamic at work that we (everyone who cares about him) don't seem to be able to have any impact on shifting towards a more positive way of relating and behaving...he is like a self-indugent child with his emotions, his desires, and his behaviour....he is bright and happy and holds court, jollying everyone into a good mood, but it doesn't last...as soon as he feels stressed by something he feels he has to do, he becomes someone else....

Plan B was formulated to shake people like him up, and let them see what life will be like if they continue as they are. It is a gamble though. He would have choices also.
I worry about you staying with him, and I worry about you leaving, and you know all the reasons for both worries. You know much more than I know.
We are all children of God. We have the seeds of greatness within us. You already know the gardening analogy. We can encourage growth of these seeds, or we can kill them. Neglect is a great killer of seeds, it doesn't take malice and forethought.

someone determined to put his foot down and rule....it's like being kissed one minute and slapped the next (figuratively).....

I think I have said before, my W lived with this same thing for years, and she wanted to leave. God would never let her, and she did ask. Oh how I have hoped, and prayed that he would respond and begin the process of change. It is impossible to love (romantic love) someone who treats you this way.


OS says it's as if he has an alter ego (OS detects the same personality change that I do)...OS is a lot more challenging to him than I am now....he stands up to him, and I know that someday he is going to be able to get away...my counselor has pointed out to me where my sons have really healthy behaviour-of caring and compassion, which they have got from me...so I need to give myself credit there and realize that my boys are growing into good, healthy people....

It could get them into a physical conflict with him. I hope not, but it could. Not because of them, but him. I am sure he does not like people standing up to him. On the whole, I think this is good though. If you teach your sons how to deal with the anger that comes to us, I believe they will be fine. I am really glad they have you for their mother.

I just don't think he's ever going to change...because he refuses to even consider that he could, should or might be able to change....to even consider the thought is a cause for resentment for him....if you resist any of his negativity, he puts you down...

He is not the problem, it's everyone else. Didn't you know that?
I don't mean to make light of him. Sorry. It's just that you can use some humor. It won't hurt you at all to laugh.


I went to talk to the priest before OS Confirmation...he just listened without saying anything to me at all....he asked a few questions but really had nothing to say...he said if I want to come back to talk to him, or if OS wants to talk to him, he would be happy to listen....but to be honest, he didn't have anything to say to me...it was kind of weird I thought...he said that I would just have to decide how long I wanted to live with it, it was up to me...but he didn't think it would help for him to try to talk to my H....so I left it....it is getting harder for me to talk about it.

I believe the Priest believes what you believe. He probably will not change. And he spoke of those choices again......

I think I find it most helpful to stick to talking to my counselor.

I am still thinking about these last few statements. I find them interesting. The conversation with the priest was to see if you could get help for your H. Your conversations with your counselor are meant to help you.
True?
If yes, does this give you any information of value?

When I think about leaving H, I realize that he does have good in him, and that if I left him, I would have to leave that good in him in order to get away from the bad....

It's good to be reminded that I should pray and wait for God's confirmation....I haven't had that yet, so I am still here...


I strongly agree with you here. God has all the facts, and we........ only a few of them. I believe that as you stay close to God, you will know what to do.


I will be away for about three weeks from now--we are going to see my FIL....I'm looking forward to it....my goal is to finish one of my modules this summer and at FIL's I will be able to study....the boys enjoy themselves there, too....I'll let you know how things went when I get back...


Ok, I would love to hear how you are.

We have had -
Our vacation to Yellowstone National Park - Early July 10 days.
Family reunion - late July
Girls camp - Late July, early August. (W and I both got to go with the twins, so it was a family trip for us.)
Major trade show - Early August
Minor Trade show - Mid August
Wedding for Youngest son - mid August. (only the twins are living at home now.) Three day hike in the mountains - Last week.

Garden is suffering from the heat, but not dead yet. I should do another photo. We are getting grapes, and just finished the peaches. Vegetables are ongoing.

I hope all is well with you, and I thank you for looking out for me.....I know things will change for the better at some point....right now, my focus is on the boys, who are doing well so far....

Well, you really should focus on the boys, but also on your own needs. School, but also rest. Something at the end of each day to relax you. I usually read these days, or hoe weeds in the garden....... 15 minutes to a half hour. My health has improved.

Things you could try -
walking
skydiving
snorkeling
surfing
reading
photography
talking to a friend
gardening
television (we don't have cable, and the things that are on stress me even more. However, some people like it.)
What I like the most are old Andy Griffith re-runs. (on DVD) Those are really relaxing.

Video games - it works for some people. Remember pong?
Sewing
Crocheting
making home made ice cream.
Baking Bread

Well, I hope you got some laughs out of this. Some are valid though. I hope you take time for you.

God bless you also. Always and forever.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 09/21/08 04:23 AM
It's getting on to fall. The twins are back in school. The cycle of life continues.

I hope you and your family are well.


SS

Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 10/02/08 08:56 PM
Bless you ss, and your wife....thank you for keeping me in your prayers.

I'm still here. I laughed and smiled a lot at your last post and you made some very good points, which I will return to....

First I apologize for not posting for so long. You took time and I didn't reply. I hope you don't feel that I took you for granted.

I was gone most of August, and then straight back into work in the first week of September - my first week back, I also had commitments every night of that week.

What happens to me is that I get over-tired. My meds kick in at around 10pm and start making me groggy. By that time I have been awake since 6am. So I have been trying to work out strategies to make more time for myself - one of which is to have dinner earlier so that I (and the boys) have more time in the evening to study, do homework, etc. I got a lot of studying done when I was on holiday, but I haven't picked up a book in 6 weeks, and I'm starting to panic - realizing I have to make changes to how I manage time during each day. I also have to go back to working 5 days a week. I am thinking this will not be so bad because I will have two half days off, and I can also be flexible with my hours and take time to stay on in the library where I work, and work on my own - it seems to be almost impossible for me to get any studying done at home - I am always doing housework (laundry, cooking or cleaning up) or supervising the boys' homework....so my strategy is to have some days where I do something easy like pizza or ready-made lasagna (instead of making it myself) - and on those days, I will be able to work in some study in the evenings before my meds kick in and send me to sleep whether I like it or not!-)

I'm not complaining about the meds, though, because they are handling the pain. I also think that what I am going to do is go get some back therapy - could be that the stress is making all my muscles tighten up somewhere....they have also said that it could have been caused in childbirth - I think that's plausible - it's a kind of funny thing to say, but childbirth is such an intense and painful experience (at least it was for me)that you remember all the little details that are hard to explain. There are things about both the births that I remember, for instance that my 2nd son weighed really heavily on my left side - maybe he put pressure on all the nerves on that side of my body - my left side has certainly been "out of whack" in some way ever since. Most of my physical aches and pains happen on the left side of my body. I know it sounds weird but there you are. Or could it be....that I am just getting old?!! LOL! That too!-)

I have also now been with my counselor for a year. I really thank you for that. It was being able to talk to you again that helped me muster up the strength I needed to call the counselors and get an appointment. I was so depressed this time last year. I think in general I feel better.

What does make me sad is my R with H. It is no better and no worse. It is just the same. Even though we had a good summer - good holidays, good time with my FIL, H is still the same. I have tried to reach him again and again, but nothing I do or say brings him out into the open. He is hiding in his cave and it seems like he is determined to stay there. I pray for him.

I would love to go on talking, but it is now 10 minutes to 10 here and I have to get my boys into bed. I just wanted you to know that I read your post and I appreciate your comments and the time you took. When I can I will be back to reply.

My garden did well this year, too! Lots of red potatos and white potatoes - some really weird looking carrots - short and stumpy with numerous legs! Good broad beans and red chard - love that! Now it is all being dug over....I've done a lot and have lots to do!

Oh, and also, H has seen a house he wants to buy (for all of us) and he is doing loads of work on our house to make it presentable to sell....we shall see...in this current economic crisis, selling our house may not be the best idea just now....I've seen the house and I like it, but I am afraid of taking out a mortgage right now...our house is not ready to sell yet, so we still have some time to consider the options.....whew!

I really must go now, but God bless you and your family, ss - you are doing good in the world.

LIR



Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 10/03/08 10:40 PM
I'm still here.

Admittedly, I still worry sometimes.
We held a funeral yesterday, and it always gets me to thinking. This was a good one, if funerals can be considered good. He was elderly, had lived a good life. He left with no regrets that I know of. I visited him a week previous to his passing. He was surrounded by his family, including his wife, who was still his major care giver. There were many who attended the service, and we had to set up extra chairs to accommodate them all.

He was given military honors, as he had served in WWII. Some (Of the speakers) touched on his years in law enforcement, and his devoted service to the community. However, it was agreed by those who spoke, that he was mostly remembered for being a good father, and a wonderful husband.

It's easy to examine one's own life during events such as this. It prompts one to think of others also. I thought about your H, and wondered what he will be remembered for. I wondered what he wants to be remembered for.

I hope that others see me as being good at what I do, but far more, I want my children to have happy memories, and my W to have no regrets from her decision to marry me. Jesus said, "I came to do the will of my father." If I can (mostly) do what he did, I am sure the other things will be as they should be.

Perhaps..........
Watch the media for the passing of a famous person, and use the occasion to ask your H these kinds of questions. If he wonders where you are coming from, you can refer to the passing of (who ever it is/was) and say it got you to thinking. I would suppose that as long as you are still living with him, you may as well continue to try to get him to think about what he is doing. It may require some preparation on your part. He could very well ask what you would think of him, if he passed now. Or....... what you believe your children would think of him. It would be great if he was to ask his sons what they would think. I think it would shock him, and I believe he would also do some thinking.

I hope his value system is such that it would mean something to him.



I laughed and smiled a lot at your last post and you made some very good points, which I will return to....

I thought of some more things for you to consider.
Hang gliding
Para sailing
Mattress testing
Motor cycle racing
Football coach (do your boys play?)
Marriage Counseling - I can print you a certificate, and mail it to you.



First I apologize for not posting for so long. You took time and I didn't reply. I hope you don't feel that I took you for granted.

I believe you need to spend your time doing what is most important. Sometimes that might be coming here, but I suspect you have lots more to do at home than you can ever get done, and it always needs attention. (SS laughs)
You seem to have your priorities in the right order, and that is as it should be.



I was gone most of August, and then straight back into work in the first week of September - my first week back, I also had commitments every night of that week.

I would love to hear more about August, and how it went. Mixed feelings about asking. (as per above) If you have commitments every night, your boys must be busy. But then, I suppose it could be other things. Many of my evening commitments are not family ones.

What happens to me is that I get over-tired. My meds kick in at around 10pm and start making me groggy. By that time I have been awake since 6am. So I have been trying to work out strategies to make more time for myself - one of which is to have dinner earlier so that I (and the boys) have more time in the evening to study, do homework, etc.

I think part of this (for me) is age. I turned 53 a few weeks ago. I can't go like I used to. 20 years ago, I could work until midnight, read until 2:00 am, and be at work again at 8:00 am. I need more sleep now. Some say they need less, but I am not one of them. I am sorry you get so tired, and often wish the world was a little slower paced.

I got a lot of studying done when I was on holiday, but I haven't picked up a book in 6 weeks, and I'm starting to panic - realizing I have to make changes to how I manage time during each day. I also have to go back to working 5 days a week.


So the 4 day work week did not pan out? I can think of questions....... (ss smiles some more.)

I am thinking this will not be so bad because I will have two half days off, and I can also be flexible with my hours and take time to stay on in the library where I work, and work on my own - it seems to be almost impossible for me to get any studying done at home - I am always doing housework (laundry, cooking or cleaning up) or supervising the boys' homework....


There are some lines attributed to Victor Hugo which read:

She broke the bread into two fragments and gave them to her children, who ate with eagerness. "She hath kept none for herself," grumbled the sergeant.

"Because she is not hungry?" said a soldier.

"No," said the sergeant, "because she is a mother."


I understand your frustration, but this is a credit to you. You are a mother, and that's what mothers do. Mothers care for children. I know you will do as much (in addition) as you can, but when all is said and done, you are a mother.


........so my strategy is to have some days where I do something easy like pizza or ready-made lasagna (instead of making it myself) - and on those days, I will be able to work in some study in the evenings before my meds kick in and send me to sleep whether I like it or not!-)


Do you have room to make things in advance, and then freeze them? We do that a lot, but sometimes I forget we have an extra freezer. Not everyone does.
Some of the things my W makes up in big batches -

Stuffed peppers (bell peppers from the garden)

Chili (home made, vegetarian)

Taco Soup (W found this one in weight watchers, but it has become a family all time favorite)

Lasagna

Turkey soup (home made noodles, carrots from the garden)

Stir Fry (using veggies from the garden)
You can use the same veggies and spice it differently so that you get variety with nearly the same base ingredients.

You may not have much room though, and you are probably better at this than I am, so I'll go on. (SS laughs again.)



I'm not complaining about the meds, though, because they are handling the pain. I also think that what I am going to do is go get some back therapy - could be that the stress is making all my muscles tighten up somewhere....they have also said that it could have been caused in childbirth.....

I think back therapy may help. Some say it helps a great deal, and others say not much, but it is probably worth a try. At least you will know. As far as child birth - well, that one is beyond me. I have done kidney stones, but no child birth. <grin>

- I think that's plausible - it's a kind of funny thing to say, but childbirth is such an intense and painful experience (at least it was for me)that you remember all the little details that are hard to explain. There are things about both the births that I remember, for instance that my 2nd son weighed really heavily on my left side - maybe he put pressure on all the nerves on that side of my body - my left side has certainly been "out of whack" in some way ever since. Most of my physical aches and pains happen on the left side of my body. I know it sounds weird but there you are. Or could it be....that I am just getting old?!! LOL! That too!-)


What do your other (women) friends say about this? I am not in the loop on this one. Getting old however....... I can weigh in on that one.

The elderly gentleman walked up to his friend at the post office. "I woke up this morning, and I thought I was dead."

What? Why did you think you were dead?"

"When I woke up, nothing hurt, and I couldn't think of any thing else that could cause that at my age."



I have also now been with my counselor for a year. I really thank you for that. It was being able to talk to you again that helped me muster up the strength I needed to call the counselors and get an appointment. I was so depressed this time last year. I think in general I feel better.


I am so glad you did this. Have hoped, and prayed for many months that you would get to a better place. Depression is a difficult thing. Those who have not experienced it do not understand at all. It sucks the life, and will to accomplish right out of a person.

This is one of the reasons we continue to pray for you. I visit with people nearly every week who suffer from depression. I know that words alone don't change things, but they can help somewhat.

I remind people that this is not home. It's not.
We will never be where we want to be until we are able to go home again. This is a temporary place, a temporary life. We face things here, that will not exist there. Make the best of it, but don't think you are not normal. SS laughs out loud..... normal is such a weird word......... when you think about it.

What does make me sad is my R with H. It is no better and no worse. It is just the same. Even though we had a good summer - good holidays, good time with my FIL, H is still the same. I have tried to reach him again and again, but nothing I do or say brings him out into the open. He is hiding in his cave and it seems like he is determined to stay there. I pray for him.

Remember what Jesus said: "I came to do the will of my father."
and
"Come, follow me."

Please don't ever think that your labor's are in vain. We do the best we can, and no one can do any better than that. Now, I realize that it doesn't fix your marriage to say this. But, keeping things in perspective is always wise. I am glad you keep trying. I so wish....... that he would join you.

I would love to go on talking, but it is now 10 minutes to 10 here and I have to get my boys into bed. I just wanted you to know that I read your post and I appreciate your comments and the time you took. When I can I will be back to reply.

Do you have a nightly routine?
I used to read a chapter of something to my girls each night. Over the years we went through many fairy tale books, the Hobbit, all three Lord of the Rings volumes, the CS Lewis children's series, all the Harry Potter books, and many more. These days we read a chapter from the scriptures, and we have a family prayer. It helps them settle down, and get in the mood for going to bed.
I just wondered, no real reason for asking. I hope your boys are doing well.


My garden did well this year, too! Lots of red potatos and white potatoes - some really weird looking carrots - short and stumpy with numerous legs! Good broad beans and red chard - love that! Now it is all being dug over....I've done a lot and have lots to do!

We had the weird carrots too. Must be the year for them. I had some that could have starred in a science fiction movie. We will continue to get things through the end of November. I tried leeks this year, and they did reasonably well.

Oh, and also, H has seen a house he wants to buy (for all of us) and he is doing loads of work on our house to make it presentable to sell....we shall see...in this current economic crisis, selling our house may not be the best idea just now....I've seen the house and I like it, but I am afraid of taking out a mortgage right now...our house is not ready to sell yet, so we still have some time to consider the options.....whew!


This one caused my eyes to bulge out, and I sat here, mouth open, trying to grasp the implications.

Well, it doesn't look like he is looking to leave any time soon. What do you think about this?
What does your counselor think?
And........ what we would really like to know, what is your H thinking?

Is he really willing to continue to live as he is now?
This is one of those cases where I would like to know a lot more about his child hood. Perhaps the little (you have related over the years) is trying to tell me something.

I really must go now, but God bless you and your family, ss - you are doing good in the world.

Thanks for your kind comments.

I have to think you are doing good in the world too. I have known very few caring mothers that were not. I know you care.


I really hope you feel God's love when you pray. It is a great help to know you are not alone, and that you will get help, and comfort.

Have also wondered how your sister, and father are getting along. Won't ask though, and I probably shouldn't even comment. Please don't feel as though you need to respond. Just wanted you to know someone cares.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/12/09 12:55 AM
Dear ss,

Finally I was able to log in!

First I want to say I'm sorry it has been so long.

I have tried many many times over the past months to log in, but I don't know what happened....my browser would just stick and nothing would happen...I would wait 5-10 minutes...nothing...I tried in both Firefox, which is my normal browser and Internet Explorer, but with no success....today I am trying with Google Chrome, which I just downloaded on the advice of my son, who says that it was the only browser to survive some hackers' fair a few weeks ago. Well, I don't know about these things...all I know is I haven't been able to log in successfully and now with Google Chrome, I got in within seconds. So that's the first reason.

The other reasons were two deaths. First, my FIL, who died not long after the New Year. When I last posted in October, I was very worried about him, as I suspected his cancer was advancing, and I didn't think my H or his brother were understanding that my FIL probably didn't have long to live. My father was very blunt about his prognosis and I was trying to get through to my H and his family that FIL was going to need help soon. Well, FIL is very independent and he was very brave, but it gathered steam and swept over him. We had planned a surprise birthday party for him in December (which I let out of the bag as I thought it would give him something to hang on to) - but he went into the hospice at the beginning of December and never came out. We did all show up for his birthday party, and we were able to spend four days together, the whole family, just hanging out together in his room at the hospice. He did enjoy seeing us, but it was clear to me that he was not far from the end. I saw how my own mom weakened, just being burned up like candle wax and I could see the same happening to him. I warned my H and his B that their dad was dying, but they for some reason didn't take me seriously - they perhaps wanted to believe that the hospice would manage his pain and get him back home for another 6 months. I could see that wasn't going to happen. When I said goodbye to him, I knew in my heart that it was for the last time. He was very sweet. He died 10 days later. I'm going to really miss him.

So we then had to return for the funeral. That was in mid-January. I really felt for my H, as he was shocked and I know he had wanted to see him again. The good thing is that we were all home together when the news came. I was glad then that we were still together as a family, as my H did not have to hear the news while he was alone, and we were able to pray together and hug my H. Nevertheless, my H still went to his own bedroom that night. He chose to sleep alone, which I confess really hurt me.

Now my H has inherited a substantial amount from his Dad, which gives him a choice of many options. The plan at the moment seems to be to buy a big house, one which will accommodate all of us and our needs. H has been thoughtful and has done things that have shown me he is thinking of my needs, too. At the moment, he hasn't come into his inheritence yet, and we haven't found a suitable large house. Last week I had an opportunity to talk alone with H and I felt I had to put it out there that he now had the option of separating if that was what he wanted, and buying his own house. Now he didn't say no or yes for sure either way and he apologized for that - he said he was sorry to sound like a wet blanket, but he wasn't sure either way yet. So I left it that he had a lot of thinking to do. Yesterday he took OS out to look at 2 more bigger houses, but OS said they were not right, so they've eliminated those.

My counselling is going well, I think. I feel better about myself in myself. I've managed to get back to studying this last week and am almost finished with the module I'm working on, which makes me feel good.

But for me, the worst thing was that I lost my best friend in the first week of February. She died unexpectedly in the States while on holiday with her sister. My sister called me at 6am 4 days after she died. My friends called her and wanted her to be the one to tell me. I'm glad she was the one to tell me because I just collapsed when she told me. I couldn't go to work at all that day and thankfully I had a counselling appt, which I just managed to get to. H called home twice that day to check on me. I was able to go to work the next two days, but stayed in my boss's office because I was so fragile. It's still a bit unreal to me...because I live so far away from all of my family and from my closest friends, I can easily get into a mode where I think of them as always there in my mind. Still, it is hard. Everyone has that one friend who you know you can totally trust, where there is a special bond between you, and she was that one friend for me. I feel my whole life will be different because she is not there. So I went back to the US to go to her memorial service in mid-March. The great thing about that was that I got to see my sister for the first time in 4 1/2 years, and to spend some good time with my family - my uncle and aunt came over for dinner one evening, and the day I left, my whole family met for lunch at my uncle's house so I got to see my cousins and my other uncle. I didn't see my dad because he couldn't drive all the way down to see me. That was a good thing. I don't think I could have handled seeing him. He totally disgraced himself just a week before my friend died by getting drunk at a family party at my uncle's house and fighting with everyone. After that he has promised to go to AA, but none of us are holding our breath. There is a big family wedding coming up in June and my cousin is going to tell him she doesn't want him there....

So so much has happened.

I have tried to log in so many times to try to let you know that I was OK, but the blasted login problems have stopped me.

I do want you to know that I am OK.

I am quietly and in myself, grieving for my friend. But I am appreciating each day as it comes. I'm not trying to change my H and I've made the space for him to leave if that's what he wants to do. I feel good about myself and I try to keep my eyes looking up more these days. I'm blessed with a beautiful family and two lovely children. I do still pray for healing for my H, but I'm not hopeful for our marriage. I just go from day to day doing the best I can. Most of the time it's good enough. My feeling is that if he doesn't appreciate me, it is his loss. My friend's death has taught me not to take people for granted. I certainly never dreamed that she would be taken so soon. When I was crying hard for her, it just came to me that I am profoundly grateful that I was not so stupid as to refuse the friendship she so selflessly offered me, not too shy to let her into my life, and how lucky I was that she came into my life and chose me to be her friend. At her memorial service, it was clear that she had touched so many people in the same way with her generous and loving spirit. I was blessed to know her.

I just wanted to thank you for all you have done for me these past few years. And I want to wish you a blessed and happy Easter.

LIR


Posted By: Trix Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/14/09 12:33 AM
Bump for SS.

Hi LIR.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/14/09 01:15 AM
Hi Trix!
Hi LIR !

No time now, I'll be back.

SS
Posted By: Trix Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/14/09 03:03 AM
Hi SS,
I read your post on the F-Hygiene thread...hadn't seen you around for a while and thought you might have missed this....but knew that if you hadn't you probably didn't have the time or weren't ready to give LIR a response. Always nice to read you smile
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/14/09 11:30 AM
Hello Trix!

Thanks for boosting my post!

I hope you had a good Easter.

All the best for a blessed 2009....

LIR
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/14/09 11:39 AM
Hi ss!

Thanks for looking in....

No time now for me either. I have serious problems getting the use of my own computer these days....both my sons seem to need to monopolize it....although that will be somewhat alleviated in the coming weeks, as we are getting YS his own laptop, as he needs it for his dyslexia work at school, and I am getting my second-hand laptop fixed for my OS to use, as he is studying for his nationwide exams in May and June.

I don't know what was up with the login business....I even tried logging in from work, but that didn't work either, and also using our other computer at home, still no luck....I thought it must be my login...that I had not used it for a few weeks, so it went inactive, with so many other people needing access to the MB site. But now that I've just started using Google Chrome, I'm having no trouble at all.

I have two more days left of my Easter break, and then I'm back at work on Thursday. I have to rush out now to pick up a prescription, make a dentist appointment and then I'll be seeing one of my friends for tea this afternoon. My H is out in the back yard with YS fixing our bike shed roof. Yesterday he cut the lawn after I asked if one of the 3 men in the house could make it their task.....he also gave me some nice chocolate for Easter....I know that he is trying to be nice to me....he has actually been very good, but this does not extend to any physical affection, or any attempt to rebuild a "normal" relationship between us. I am working on this with my counselor as well...I just don't know how I would feel if that was what he wanted. Well, I will come back....but now I have to go....

Just wanted you to know I was OK and to thank you for your prayers. My sister sent me a story about the reading from Malachi which I will share later when I have the time....I think lots of people here would like it....

All the best,
LIR
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/14/09 10:27 PM
How kind of you to wish me a happy Easter. And thank you for letting me know how you are.
I admit that I worried from time to time. Was in southern Cal last week on business. It started me thinking about you. I never know (completely) the reasons that people post, or don't post.

I wondered if you had recovered your M. That would be the best reason not to post. I would be sincerely happy if you were in that situation. I examined some of the standard reasons that people leave MB, but none of them seemed to fit. I am sure you would not leave for good without saying something. Never thought about the browser.
Another thing you could try with the other browsers, is to delete your cookies, especially the MB cookies. I had that problem more than once. Deleting cookies fixes it for me.


You seem to be doing well.

When people come in for help, and I interview them, I ask questions to give me a better idea of how they really are, and to help me better know what direction to take with them. Sometimes they have all the right answers, but they still are not doing well. On the surface the seem fine, but deep down, there are still "unsolved mystery's."

You seem to have the "right answers" too. Based on the things you report, you DO seem to be OK.

SS smiles -

Since you seem to be doing well, I'll only ask A FEW questions.
It would really be easier to do this in person. I am sure my W would enjoy talking to you also. However, I don't see that happening in the next few weeks, so I'll just type them out. (ss chuckles out loud)

Who do you talk to now that your friend is gone?

How is your faith?

What things make you happy?
I think that question is too broad, so lets tighten it up a little bit. In the context of things that make you happy.............. what do you live for? (you already said that your family was one of these things, and I know it is very important, but I want to know if there are other things besides your family)
What do you get excited about? What future date on your calendar do you look at, and wish it would come sooner?

I have typed out, and deleted other questions - lets just go with these for now.

You and I both like to give background with our posts. It makes your posts longer, and if I may say - much more interesting. However, you may not have time for that any time soon. Be willing to give one sentence answers if you have to.

I know you just came to tell me you are OK, and don't require a post like this, but ........ well, you know me.

Who votes for an update from Trix?
SS - Aye
Several historical figures -
Aye
Aye
Aye
Aye
LIR ?

Oh, and one last question. How goes the garden? Last year, and this year so far?

SS

Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 05/29/10 02:06 PM
Well, I'm still married, and it looks like I'm likely to stay that way for some time, despite the issues.

Last year, I went and "interviewed" three divorce lawyers - I wanted to file for divorce last autumn, but when I called the lawyer I had seen before, she couldn't arrange a meeting for two weeks, then she cancelled and rescheduled three times. Needless to say, that didn't set too well with me. So I got two other recommendations and went to see these other two. I'm glad I did as I got different advice from all of them regarding the status of my H's inheritance. I am now finally clear about what my rights would be in the event of a divorce. I am glad now that I waited and did not file for divorce, as it turns out that our house needs major structural repairs. (We have the builders in now starting the work, and it's going well). Had I filed for divorce last year, I would be sitting in a house that needed major work done on it that I couldn't afford, nor would I be able to sell it, or rent it in it's present condition. I would have been able to get the work done on the household insurance, but then my insurance premiums would have gone through the roof. So, as it is, we are now getting the work done on the house that it needs, and my H is paying for it all. We are also trying to buy a bigger house and have made an offer on one and are negotiating the price. If that sale goes through, we will own two houses in both our names.

I have decided to sit and wait. Why?

I finally found personal cards and notes from the OW. Bleacgh! Little rows of xxxxx's all around the outside of the card. Grow up you stupid cow! I photocopied them all - one of them even has a date on it. Also, a present to my H from someone else of a book called "Against Love" by Laura Kipnis. Bleacgh again! OW literally FAWNS over my H, it's all "because I was with YOU" and "we'll quench our thirst again and again"...Bleacgh again!! (Washing my mouth out now) And here's my H going to go to church with me next month for YS' Confirmation.

I decided that staying married gave me more control over my children. I am NEVER going to let OW near my kids. OS is 17, YS is 14 - this has been going on now for 4 years. By staying married, OK, I accept that I can be accused of enabling my H's affair. But I am also in control of who has access to my kids. And I am never, ever, ever going to concede to a situation where my H has the right to introduced her to them. I will be the barrier between her and them for as long as I can. Until they are old enough to decide for themselves that they don't want to see their dad and that home-wrecker in their lives. And believe me, they are going to be fully aware of what she did to us. YS is still too young. When they are grown-up enough, then I will reconsider my decision. I was put in that position when I was a child and the impact on me was catastrophic. I'm never going to let what happened to me happen to my own children. I recognize that I am the constant in their life. If there is only one constant, then it has to be me. They are also both doing well, with both of them working at A-level in school, and with a good network of friends.

So - my plan is to move into this new house and see how things are when we all have enough room to have our own space. I am sure the boys will be happier when they each have their own room and there is a big kitchen and family room for them to relax in without bumping into their Dad. H can go do whatever it is he does in the garage. It is ultimately to my financial advantage to get into a position where we own both houses. I don't think it's being mercenary to try to look after my own interests, and it's up to me what I can stand and what I can't.

My H has been generous with money in ways that I need, so I am giving him credit for that. I am taking the boys to the US in August for a month to spend time with my family. H is paying for that. H is not coming with us, he is going to Italy - says he has a class to teach. I think I can guess who will be with him for part of that time. My dear, dear uncle was also taken ill and died earlier this month. I was able to go spend a week with my family and my uncle - I got there and was able to speak to him before he died. H paid for my trip. My dad was also diagnosed with lymphoma in Jan and is now on his fourth chemo session. I've been on the phone daily with dad and his wife, supporting her in doing what she has to do to take care of him. I think she is doing a really good job of taking care of him and, at 63, is finally growing up! Because Dad lives in such a remote area, it is not possible for me to get to see him until August. He is doing well, though. With all this going on, I need to be able to afford to travel if I have to. So I am just hunkering down for the moment.

My counselling sessions are going well. I think I am stronger than I was four years ago.

Finding those letters has made me mad. It has also shown me the evil at work in H's life, and the evil at work in adultery. I pray for my H. OS says to me that what he can't understand is how H can go on doing what he's doing, even while proclaiming himself publicly to be a Christian and expounding to us on Christianity. I'ts like H has this disconnect between what he believes and what he does, like he has put his R with OW in a box and says, "this doesn't count, this is private". I am sad over what the A has done to H. But it's his choice. You can say that I haven't made it possible for him to kick his addiction because I haven't kicked him out. But....I have to think of myself and the kids and what is best for them. I am not confident that H would have quit his A if I kicked him out. My decision has been to stay, although I recognize it is not a popular one. It is not permanent, though. It is constantly being reviewed.

It's raining now, and I have to go to the Post Office. As usual, I can't spend more time here. But I wanted to post. And to thank you for prayers you have said for me and for keeping me in your prayers.
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/03/10 03:05 PM
Hmm. There might be signs that H is coming out of the fog. Yesterday he approached me and asked me, quite tentatively, I have to say, whether or not we should go ahead with our offer on the bigger house.

I was very careful with him. I wasn't angry and he didn't show any signs of anger. He seemed really sad. He asked that we try to go on together. He said he needed time to get himself together. I told him there was no chance for us at all unless he stopped seeing OW and never saw her again, and never spoke to her again. He said he knew that. He said that instantly. I told him I knew who OW was. I said I thought she had gone after him real hard (I know she did). He agreed. I told him I am the same person as I was when he met me and he's been mad at me for things but I never felt any malice towards anyone. I told him he couldn't see who I was because OW is like a splinter in his eye and he can't see me until she is gone. I told him I feel totally trapped but that I am doing what I'm doing because I think it's what is best for the kids. But what would have been best for us would not have been what was best for them. I told him that even though I'm doing the best I can, I can't stop stuff from happening, like YS getting ahold of his phone and reading all OW text msgs. Bad stuff like that. (I don't think he knew about that) He was very quiet. I told him since money wasn't an issue anymore, he could go and get his own house now if he wanted and I was fine with that. I said that since he had found someone else, I was fine with him going to live with her. He reacted negatively to that. (I was interested by that - I know H pretty well and he seemed like he thought that would never work, like he thought that would be a really bad idea) I told him that we weren't going to be like our friends, with their children coming back when they are grown, and having a happy family life with grandchildren around. I told him that wasn't going to be us..the kids are going to go as soon as they can and they won't come back. He said I didn't know that for sure. I said I did - that's what they want. When I suggested him living alone, living with OW, or even finding someone else after OW, he was really negative about that. He reacted with real sadness. I got the feeling he was looking at himself down the line, alone in his house, with no family and he didn't like that picture too much. He said he was done rocking the boat and he just wanted to try to get our life back together, to try to live together in this new house and see how things go. He was real quiet. I told him I'd think about it and maybe we could talk some more. I told him if he ever wanted to talk he could always come to talk. He thanked me for that, and thanked me for saying what I'd said.

It was a real sad conversation. I definitely got the feeling that he is really getting it - that he has really made a mess of his life (and ours). He said several times that he had never meant for things to be this way. I answered that I knew that. But in my heart, I am not getting drawn back into this. I know it would take a lot more than this for him to ever reach a point where he could have a real relationship with anyone again, let alone me.

But I am watching him. He's been paying for everything he should be paying for. He's getting our house fixed bigtime and is paying for me to go see my family. In my feeling, he owes me this. I never thought he would come out of the fog, and I'm not holding out a lot of hope in that sense because I know he could go right back in again, or even, just start another affair with someone new. Still - I think the fog cleared for a while and allowed him to see the devastation he's caused, not least of all to himself.

I'm just trying to get my own self and life together. I'm concentrating on my garden, the children and my own family and friends - the people I know really love me. I'm still struggling with my degree course, but am starting to get back on track with that. I'm not going to get caught up emotionally in what's up with H. If I hadn't spent so long here at MB, I probably would be, but I think I can recognize some signs for what they are. I still know it is not a recovery, though. Just a sign that H is not feeling very comfortable where he is, which maybe means his A is over, or nearly over.

I just want to thank everyone who has tried to help me over the years. Everyone who posts here has been helpful, too, because I have read a lot of threads even though I might never have posted. I haven't taken actions that I probably should have, for my own reasons, I've made the decisions I've made. Even if our marriage does not survive, I think I am a stronger person than I was. For all of that, I thank everyone who has ever posted to me.

Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/04/10 02:15 AM
Should I ask you questions?

SS
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/04/10 02:58 AM
Waving to stillseeking! I was thinking the other day how much I miss your soothing posts to the posters here. There is so much despair here and you do such an astounding job of peeling folks off the ceiling. I know you did that for me once.

Its good to see you, SS, and I wanted you know that you are missed. smile
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/04/10 08:54 PM
You are very kind Mel. Thanks for the comments.

I stop by and read every once in a while, but It's hard to take time to write.
I am involved in a new business venture, which is very demanding. And my personal life is pretty packed. I put in about as much time for folks in our church as you (Mel) do for the people on the boards here. It's rewarding, but it doesn't leave me much free time.

I worry about LIR. (Now F4L)
One of the things we need in order to be happy here on earth, is faith in ourselves. She has it, to an extent, but there is a gap in there somewhere.

Now, anyone who has a spouse cheat, will be affected to an extent. It's easier to recover if you either:
1. Divorce and don't have to put up with them.
2.Or Reconcile.

Since neither one of these has taken place for her, she is bound to struggle sometimes, but it seems to me that it's more than this. I can't place it.

There are other things that affect how we view ourselves.
Relationships with friends.
Progress with our personal goals. (Including Education.)
Relationships with family.
Status at our place of employment.
How well we live compared to our value system.

Through out most of her time here on MB, LIR has maintained a good self image. Not always a great one, but a good one. AS I said, who can always hold up well in the face of infidelity?

One of the dangers of commenting like this about anyone, is that they tend to stay away, because they are not always sure what you are getting at, and it's difficult to talk about ourselves.

I think LIR is better then most though, and I hope she comments.
If there are other struggles going on, I would like to know about them.

Of course, I could be seeing things that don't exist too. It's hard to read a person from just a few posts.

LIR,
My new business venture is in Southern Cal. My W often comes with me. We love to meet people from MB.
We can't always make it work, but we can sometimes.

I don't know where your father is, but keep it in mind.

There are probably good reasons why you don't post more often. I best leave you alone.

Remember that people care.
Prayers continue.

SS




Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/04/10 08:58 PM
Has this been resolved?
I know it's from a few years ago, and it was somewhat improved when you last wrote about it, but I have wondered.

Physically - sometimes struggling - I've been suffering a burning pain in my left side since last August...it's been an ordeal. On some heavy pain killers, and frustrated with my doctor, I changed to a new doctor, who is a lot more pro-active and I've had a few tests, x-rays, etc.. The good news is that I don't have cancer. But they still don't know what is causing it...I am due for more scans. The good news is that it seems to be lessening...I seem to have more good days than bad now. I have days now where I don't have to take painkillers. Gradual improvement.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/06/10 11:18 AM
Hi there,

It's Sunday morning and I've got a few minutes alone (at least before YS gets up, which he probably will soon because the roofer is here now and about to get started).

First, I'd like to say that I ALWAYS appreciate your posts, ss, and I feel bad that I haven't been able to respond always to some of your questions. Not because I didn't want to answer them but because, like you, my life is so full that I don't have time for me. And that's probably at least some of, or a big part of, my own personal problem - that between work (4 days a week now) and the family, my counselling and trying to keep it all together, trying to get enough sleep (that's a big issue right now), I don't make the time to do the things I really ought to do for me. And that includes thinking time to answer some of the questions you've asked me over the years.

For awhile there, I started to feel guilty again about my H not knowing I come here to talk about what's been happening with our marriage. I was somehow afraid of what he'd do if he found out. But in the past, I discussed this with a priest at our church and also with my counselor, and they both said that I was entitled to seek the help I needed to deal with my situation, and as long as it was not "covert" in the sense that I was not having a covert relationship with another man outside my marriage, it was above board. My counselor stresses to me that the most important thing for me is to do what I feel is right to stay safe. I have needed a lot of support over these last years, and I just want to say that I appreciate the advice and support I have received from MB and particularly from you, ss. You have been very helpful to me.
I also went through a stage of feeling like I was being very dependent on MB, and I wanted to try to shift that to my counselling sessions, to try to contain it there, and try to concentrate during the time outside my counselling sessions, on focusing on my work and not falling apart inside on a daily basis. I think I've done that to a large extent now, and I feel better about myself, although I feel I have a long way to go in terms of doing what I want to be doing with my life, but I am not beaten yet!:-)

You have often spoken of the "refiner's fire", and I had wanted to post to you a story that my sister sent me that has to do with that. Maybe you've already seen this, but it's so good, I just had to share it...

'Malachi 3:3 says: "He sits as a refiner and purifier of silver."

This verse puzzled some women in a Bible study and they wondered what this statement meant about the character and nature of God. One of the women offered to find out the process of refining silver and get back to the group at their next Bible Study. That week, the woman called a silversmith and made an appointment to watch him at work. She didn't mention anything about the reason for her interest beyond her curiosity about the process of refining silver.

As she watched the silversmith, he held a piece of silver over the fire and let it heat up. He explained that in refining silver, one needed to hold the silver in the middle of the fire where the flames were hottest as to burn away all the impurities. The woman thought about God holding us in such a hot spot; then she thought again about the verse that says: "He sits as a refiner and purifier of silver."

She asked the silversmith if it was true that he had to sit there in front of the fire the whole time the silver was being refined. The man answered that yes, he not only had to sit there holding the silver, but he had to keep his eyes on the silver the entire time it was in the fire. If the silver was left a moment too long in the flames, it would be destroyed. The woman was silent for a moment. Then she asked the silversmith, "How do you know when the silver is fully refined?" He smiled at her and answered, "Oh, that's easy -- when I see my image in it."

If today you are feeling the heat of the fire, remember that God has His eye on you and will keep watching you until He sees His image in you.

This very moment, someone needs to know that God is watching over them. And whatever they're going through, they'll be a better person in the end.

"Life is like a coin. You can spend it anyway you wish, but you can only spend it once."'

That has really helped me - God's eye is still on me, because I am not yet there - I still have feelings of wanting vengeance on OW and H - they pop up from time to time and I go, Hey - looka that! Is that what you REALLY want? And usually the answer is no in the end. I really wouldn't want anything terrible to happen to either H or OW. I am mostly worried about H and his immortal soul - because I'm a believer, I worry that if he doesn't repent, time will catch up with him and he might not get a chance. What with my uncle dying (which came on quite suddenly, even though he has been in frail health for many years), and my dad getting cancer and having to go through chemo, so he couldn't get to see my uncle before he died, although he did speak to him on the phone - you know, it's a life lesson there - my dad, with his alcoholism and his infidelity and the histrionics of OW, has done his fair share of making difficult times for the whole family, and in the months before my uncle died, he was done with that. So when my dad was down in So. Cal, he didn't meet up with my uncle - so they missed their chance to see each other. That is really sad. They are only a year apart and for all the differences, they were not enemies - they loved each other. I kept hoping my H would see that my dad's choices really wrecked the life he should have had and made all his family relationships really difficult. Despite that, our love for each other is very strong, and my dad's illness has had a powerful healing effect with regards to other rifts. I started working really hard to heal the rift between my stepmother and my sister, myself and my dad - my stepmother has been growing by leaps and bounds now that she has to take full care of my dad while he goes through chemo, and we have talked through a lot of the misunderstandings that caused the rift. Through all this, my sister and I had set ourselves to pray only one prayer - we would pray that God would do what would have the best outcome for everyone. That was all. We would turn it over to God and accept what happened. And my dad was diagnosed with cancer - and a whole lot of healing and personal growth is taking place. And we are clear that my dad is not out of the woods yet - and that life is a journey, and we can't avoid bad things happening - and we all have to die in the end.

So I have taken this prayer, and that is what I have been praying for for my H. To give it to God and pray that what happens will be what is best for everyone involved - that includes OW. For me, that means I accept that if H wants to D and go live with OW, I'm ok with that. I really don't feel bad about that. The boys are so fed up with him by now that they would accept that, too. What IS so sad is how they have lost their respect for him. I don't know how he will be able to repair that but that is not up to me.

To answer your question about the physical pain, I've been on pain medication now for about 18 months-2 years? I was finally diagnosed with "neuropathic pain" - pain from a damaged nerve (probably sciatic nerve) and they put me on these meds that disrupt the pain synapse in your brain - low-dose Amitryptilin combined with Lyrica (Pregabelin) (my spelling isn't too hot) - it does work - no more pain - but when I've tried to get off them, the pain comes back. However, when I was visiting my sister and slept on a different bed, the pain was considerably less. So my plan is to get a new bed, and see a good chiropractor and see what the results of that might be. I don't like the meds because they affect my thinking in a subtle way - they wreak havoc with my short-term memory, they also make me very groggy at night and in the morning, and I sometimes have insomnia. I'm convinced they also affect my motivation and how I string thoughts together, so I have been struggling to get any work done with my course. But I have talked with my tutor recently and she has arranged for me to take a leave of absence for a year retroactively - she says that this last year, I have, once again, had to deal with a whole lot on my plate that is more stress than even a usually stressed-out student would have to cope with. I have good ideas for my degree work, I just cant seem to get it together to get it down on paper - it's like I am just doing too much and my degree work comes last, when it should come first (or at least third - after the boys and my own family). I am not good at time-management.

The things that you said in your post to Melody Lane are all valid with regards to me. I'm sure there is other stuff besides the infidelity that keeps me from functioning at full throttle and from making decisions that are decisive. Those issues have to do mostly with my childhood and my father's rel with my stepmother, which created a matrix it is hard to shake - the issues there in other words, affect me even now in the emotional patterns that I took into myself from having to cope with my father's infidelity and my stepmother's impact on us as kids and even all through our adult life. Even now, we have still been dealing with it, which is why I am so glad she is finally growing up - and I am real proud of her now for stepping up to the plate and taking such good care of my dad.

That issue is probably the most important reason why I have taken the decision to stay married. Unlike a lot of people here, I can't seem to bring myself to go to plan B. The reason being that plan B would throw my kids into the unknown, and would probably bring them into contact with OW. I am not going to let that happen. I KNOW what that can do to kids. My boys are now teenagers and growing up fast. That does not mean they are not still vulnerable to a woman who wants to manipulate their emotions. And my instinct is that this OW is manipulative. I have seen a few of her msgs to H, and she pours sex and romance down through the emails, written msgs and txts - like so many OW. Well, I guess I have just put control over who has access to my kids first. If H and I get divorced later and he has another R, then they can meet that person, but with regards to this OW, it is not going to be for as long as I can help it. I know my H has the greater fault, but she is a husband-stealer and a home-wrecker with no thought except for her own happiness. She is not a safe person for my kids to be around. So I am being the barrier between her and my kids.

I'm going to have to go now, but I will try to come back and think some more about some of the things you've mentioned.

Hi Melody Lane! I hope you are well and flourishing!

And ss, I hope your new business venture in SoCal is going well. I am glad that your wife goes with you. Is that because your kids are now old enough to take care of themselves? I certainly know that some of our problems came about because I was not able to travel with H when the kids were small, and, most important, we did not make time to be alone together, or go away together.

My dad is in Humboldt County, and is 11 miles back on a private dirt road quite a few miles out of Garberville and Redway. It is a long trip to get to see him - I am currently working out a plan with my sister to be able to get up there in August. The good thing is that he comes into contact with less germs while he is up there, while he is going through his chemo.

God bless you and thank you for your prayers.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 06/06/10 11:59 AM
I have worried quite a bit ever since your good friend passed away.
It's difficult to replace someone like that in your life.
It sounds like you are close to your sister though. I hope so.

Probably didn't help when FIL passed either.

I also went through a stage of feeling like I was being very dependent on MB, and I wanted to try to shift that to my counselling sessions, to try to contain it there, and try to concentrate during the time outside my counselling sessions, on focusing on my work and not falling apart inside on a daily basis. I think I've done that to a large extent now, and I feel better about myself, although I feel I have a long way to go in terms of doing what I want to be doing with my life, but I am not beaten yet!:-)

I guessed this may be why you were away. I hope it's working out for you. I admit I have worried from time to time.

I counsel people often and there are all kinds of things they are dealing with. I feel like most work through things in a healthy way. Every once in a while someone will move away before things are resolved.
I worry.

It would be nice to see you in a more healthy place. I don't mean to say I think your life is in a shambles, but I am guessing you don't feel whole yet. It would be wonderful for you to have that blessing.

My first meeting starts soon. I hope you have a wonderful Sunday.

God be with you.

SS

Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 02/08/11 12:38 AM
Hello again after a long time.

I wanted to say thank you for all of the counsel you have freely given to me.

I just wanted to say that I am ok, and my boys are ok, too. Our marriage is still in the same state of estrangement but we are still married. This makes me unhappy, but I have chosen to go forward with this because I have decided it is the best strategy for me and the boys. OS is in his last year of school and is making straight A's now. He has his eyes on university and is making good progress towards his goals. YS is also doing well and starting to get some very good grades also. I am proud of both of them and do my best to support them.

It has been a difficult year, with sadness, but also some happy times, too. In August I took my boys and OS gf to the US to visit with my family. H paid for our trip, but he had a business trip to Europe, so he didn't come with us. Being home with my family again was fabulous....we had lots of fun times with my sister's family, the boys got to spend a lot of time getting to know their cousins, and it was just so special for me to be home again, to feel myself again. My boys said I was like a totally different person. We had a huge family reunion, and I got to see all my first cousins together for the first time in 30 years...loads and loads of pictures to keep happy memories alive. Good to see my kids in the picture of all the second cousins together! My dad couldn't come because he was still recovering from his last chemo, but after the party, we all piled into a convoy and headed north - road trip! -- staying at my favorite place in the whole world for a few days, then on to camp for a few days with more family...then another 350 miles north to see my dad...hadn't seen my dad in 6 YEARS! But he has survived his chemo and had a clean scan...although we only got to spend one day with him, it was worth it. Being able to take my boys to my home town and to introduce them to places that are so special to me, and to spend time in my city, getting to know the place and the people...they had the time of their lives...It was hard to come back, but for now, our life is here.

H and I decided to go forward together and buy a larger house. We found a house in July, and we completed the sale at the beginning of September. The house purchase has turned into a complete renovation project and we are still living in the cramped smaller house, but I hope that we will be moving into the new house soon. H seems to have really enjoyed the whole project...really throwing himself into the whole thing. For the most part he has tried to approach it as a joint project and has been fairly good about asking my opinion. I have had to fight him on a couple of things, but for the most part, we are in agreement about decor, etc., and it has been good to be able to work on something together. He is only slightly more affectionate towards me, and we are not planning on sharing a bedroom in the new house. I feel relieved in a way, and am looking forward to having a decent bedroom.

Why am I doing this? First of all, I have taken legal advice from 3 different lawyers, and this is the best way of securing my financial future if in the future we decide to get divorced. Second, my kids are doing well. I don't want to rock the boat when they are both doing well in school. And since I had that conversation with H back in June, I got the feeling that his affair was over, or maybe dying, but there is no way to be sure. He has been respectful for two years now in that he has not been aggressive, and ever since we decided to go ahead and buy this house, he has been actively seeking my approval on the project. I do realize, though, that it could all fall apart, so I am not getting too attached to the house itself. I think that once we are in a larger space, the tension level will drop, and I think there are many things about the living space which will help H feel happier and more relaxed. I have to balance what is best for me and what is best for the boys, and the word that keeps coming up is compromise. It's true that emotionally I am frustrated and unhappy. Of course, I would love to be loved and to find love, but I am more concerned about getting the best deal out of life for my boys. I know a lot of people would feel that this the wrong thing to do, but it is what I feel I can do.

So that (the new house) has been absorbing a huge amount of time and attention ever since the summer. I do feel like the rest of my life is on hold until we move. Christmas came and went in a blur! Sadly, two weeks ago, my lovely aunt died unexpectedly. Her memorial service was held this past Saturday. She was a lovely woman and I will miss her. I couldn't go to the service as I just couldn't afford to go to the US for a third time in a year..and I also couldn't get the time off work. :-(


I always find the winter difficult, but the days are now getting longer and I am starting to feel a little more alert.

I often think of MB, even though I don't come here very much anymore, and I am grateful more deeply than I can say for all the kindness and support shown to me here over the years. MB has really been what helped keep my head above water when times were darkest. I don't feel I am out of the woods yet, but I am managing well with my counselor. I do pray for my H and always will, but to be honest, he will probably not ever be able to give me what I want and need from a man. Someday I will have to deal with that, but for now, I'm busy being a mom. Whatever H does with himself is his responsibility.

So just wanted to check in to say hi and to wish you a happy New Year, and to say thank you again for everything....blessings on you and your family, ss.

LIR


Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/13/11 01:04 AM
Blessings to you also LIR.

Prayers continue.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/24/11 03:00 PM
Thank you, ss...

I have started going to Al-anon...a friend who has an alcoholic parent invited me...I am going because I feel I still have a lot to learn, and I am there to listen....

I would like to wish everyone here a blessed Easter and I pray for peace for everyone who has suffered the pain of infidelity.

Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 04/27/11 04:27 AM
Originally Posted by friend4life
It has been a difficult year, with sadness, but also some happy times, too. In August I took my boys and OS gf to the US to visit with my family. H paid for our trip, but he had a business trip to Europe, so he didn't come with us. Being home with my family again was fabulous....we had lots of fun times with my sister's family, the boys got to spend a lot of time getting to know their cousins, and it was just so special for me to be home again, to feel myself again. My boys said I was like a totally different person. We had a huge family reunion, and I got to see all my first cousins together for the first time in 30 years...loads and loads of pictures to keep happy memories alive. Good to see my kids in the picture of all the second cousins together! My dad couldn't come because he was still recovering from his last chemo, but after the party, we all piled into a convoy and headed north - road trip! -- staying at my favorite place in the whole world for a few days, then on to camp for a few days with more family...then another 350 miles north to see my dad...hadn't seen my dad in 6 YEARS! But he has survived his chemo and had a clean scan...although we only got to spend one day with him, it was worth it. Being able to take my boys to my home town and to introduce them to places that are so special to me, and to spend time in my city, getting to know the place and the people...they had the time of their lives...It was hard to come back, but for now, our life is here.

I always enjoy readying your posts. One learns a lot about people by what they say.......... and how they say it. My feeling is that you have always been honest in your posts. One of my favorite scriptural quotes that I have always connected with you is this one from Psalms 32:2.
Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Many of things you say are interesting to me...... for different reasons. I put one such comment in bold above.

I wish the conditions of your life were such that your sons could see you like this most of the time. One who has heavy burdens is often tired from the bearing of them. We don't intend for it to be so, but it affects our countenance.

Thank you for sharing. I learn a great deal from your posts.
I won't comment on any thing else at this point. <big grin>

May you yet find much joy in the journey.

God bless you, and yours.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 12/27/11 11:54 AM
I just wanted to come back to say that I wish you a happy Christmas and holiday season amongst family and friends. Thank you for all the prayers you have offered up for me over the years.

I am doing well. H and I are settled into our new house now and everyone has relaxed from having more space. OS has finished his first term at university and is doing great and loving it. YS is doing well. Starting his first round of exams after the holidays, and then two more years of high school.

I am doing well at work and will be receiving a promotion next September. I have been focused on my own healing this last year, and am finding Al-Anon a special place to be for me. I feel I have finally found a second family, of people whose lives have been affected by alcohol. I can walk into the room and know I am among friends. I also know that I am there for myself and my own healing and not to try to change anyone else, or to heal anyone else. I know that my life has been terribly affected by my dad's alcoholism, but also that my dad is the adult child of an alcoholic, which helps me to forgive him. A clue to how my thinking had become distorted was when I remembered that in my first year of marriage, even after my husband's violent temper had started to show itself, I still counted myself lucky to have him "because he was not a drunk". So no matter what my husband did, or how he was with me, I was grateful to be with him "because at least he wasn't a drunk", like my first boyfriend/husband. The words of the 12-step program and the words used in the formal structure of the Al-Anon meeting thus have personal meaning for me, which are very healing. I am starting to decipher my own behaviour in this kind of light, instead of taking on the shame and viewing myself as weak and a failure. I had got myself out of my first relationship with a full-blown alcoholic, only to go straight into the relationship with my present husband, because I did not yet understand the dynamics at work in my life. Someone tried hard to get me to go to Adult Child of Alcoholics during that time, but I didn't go because I didn't think I needed it!

So I am doing better. Still with H. Still in a broken marriage in that there is no love relationship, no physical contact. But we live together and I still feel that is the best way that I can give my boys what they need materially. It is broken but better than the alternative.

I had an experience a few weeks ago that I thought that you would like to hear. I have never before then felt loved by God, never felt in my heart that God really loved me. I knew that God was there, that He tried to let me know that He was there, but I never felt loved. So on this afternoon, I was feeling quite low, feeling the longing to just be hugged by someone, to know the warmth that comes from being wrapped in someone's loving arms. I wished I could have that because at times I feel so lonely, having lost that love from my husband, and not regained it. At times, I cannot help but feel this, which is one reason why I love that our Al-Anon group always greet each other with hugs. So I left work and was trudging up the road, thinking and feeling these thoughts. I rounded a corner and there, sitting on a little bench, was a young man wearing an immaculate pin-striped suit and his graduation cap and gown. My work is next-door to a college so I assumed he was a graduating student. He had the biggest smile on his face and he just radiated joy. He smiled at me with that smile and I could not help but smile back. "Congratulations!" I said, and he just threw out both of his arms and boomed "Want a hug?!". I just about fell over backwards!! God couldn't have responded to my need more instantaneously!! I started back and then said "Of course! I'll give you a hug!" and he jumped to his feet and swept me up in a big, joyful hug. I finally felt the love of God in that moment. God saw I needed a hug and pointed his finger at that man and said "Give that woman a hug from Me!" Wow! And maybe I was an angel to him, too. Maybe his mom wasn't there to see him graduate. I looked at him and I said "I have two sons, and you know, I feel like a proud mom. So just...well done, you!" He beamed at me and said "Thank you," and then I went on my way. When I have those difficult moments in my life, I am going to remember that hug and that moment.

So I feel like I am being looked after. I am focusing on my own healing now and leaving H up to God. H has a Higher Power, too, and has to find his own way to healing himself. Al-Anon is helping me to help my sister, too. She still has a lot of anger against my dad, and she is the one who is closer to him geographically. Dad is doing well. He is still sober, and although he has beaten the cancer, he is much more frail and age is catching up with him. I don't know when I will get to see him again, but I touch base with him on the phone every week. That's the way it has to be right now.

I am doing best if I take everything One Day at a Time. Thank you for all you have done for me, and for being a light in a dark place. Wishing you and your family light in darkness at all times.
Posted By: swan's song Re: Calling still seeking... - 12/28/11 04:49 PM
Quote
A clue to how my thinking had become distorted was when I remembered that in my first year of marriage, even after my husband's violent temper had started to show itself, I still counted myself lucky to have him "because he was not a drunk". So no matter what my husband did, or how he was with me, I was grateful to be with him "because at least he wasn't a drunk", like my first boyfriend/husband.

Quote
So I am doing better. Still with H. Still in a broken marriage in that there is no love relationship, no physical contact. But we live together and I still feel that is the best way that I can give my boys what they need materially. It is broken but better than the alternative.


I know that you are standing for your marriage but this statement above is to me what you are showing your sons, your marriage is only what they know, is this how you want them to act towards their future wives.


The alternative is to live a healthy life to strive for the best and not settle because of fear. Your sons will live out the same because this is all they know, how their father interacts their mother.


All those material things won't matter in the future when their social skills interacting with wives and girlfriends are bases on your marriage.

Kids learn and practice what they know. I grew up this way living on the surface and not really living an a real life, not really talking with family but talking at family on the surface.


ETA:

I hate divorce and think all options should be explored, but when a spouse does not want to change and continues to emotionally and mentally abuse their spouse by withholding love and affection and doing a roommate marriage you need to think of the effect this will have on your kids future.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 12/30/11 07:44 AM
Hi LIR,
Thank you for the kind words.

This is a time of year when many of us think of our blessings. It may be that we are more thankful, or it may be that we have more time to think.

I often think of you as I pray, and wonder how you are doing. My marriage continues to improve. I wish for the same blessing for you, and your H.

I just wanted to come back to say that I wish you a happy Christmas and holiday season amongst family and friends. Thank you for all the prayers you have offered up for me over the years.

Thank you again. I wish you a happy holiday season also. I hope you had a merry Christmas. We watched A "Muppet Christmas Carol" last week, and I wondered how you were doing as I watched. I think they did a good job on that movie. It stirs feelings, and makes one think.

I am doing well. H and I are settled into our new house now and everyone has relaxed from having more space. OS has finished his first term at university and is doing great and loving it. YS is doing well. Starting his first round of exams after the holidays, and then two more years of high school.

I am thankful that the boys are doing well. I know this is important. How far from your other home is your new home? I wondered when you spoke of getting a hew house, if it would actually happen. I am glad you have more space, and maybe a water heater that will last for a while. More space for a music room? This is where we all want to see a photo.

I am doing well at work and will be receiving a promotion next September.

Good for you. I don't know much about what you do, but I hope it comes with a pay raise. More than that, I hope it helps you feel good about your self, and your abilities.

I have been focused on my own healing this last year, and am finding Al-Anon a special place to be for me. I feel I have finally found a second family, of people whose lives have been affected by alcohol. I can walk into the room and know I am among friends. I also know that I am there for myself and my own healing and not to try to change anyone else, or to heal anyone else. I know that my life has been terribly affected by my dad's alcoholism, but also that my dad is the adult child of an alcoholic, which helps me to forgive him. A clue to how my thinking had become distorted was when I remembered that in my first year of marriage, even after my husband's violent temper had started to show itself, I still counted myself lucky to have him "because he was not a drunk". So no matter what my husband did, or how he was with me, I was grateful to be with him "because at least he wasn't a drunk", like my first boyfriend/husband. The words of the 12-step program and the words used in the formal structure of the Al-Anon meeting thus have personal meaning for me, which are very healing. I am starting to decipher my own behaviour in this kind of light, instead of taking on the shame and viewing myself as weak and a failure. I had got myself out of my first relationship with a full-blown alcoholic, only to go straight into the relationship with my present husband, because I did not yet understand the dynamics at work in my life. Someone tried hard to get me to go to Adult Child of Alcoholics during that time, but I didn't go because I didn't think I needed it!

There is a lot in this paragraph. You have always been good at looking at your history, and figuring things out. Not always as quickly as you would like (sometimes hindsight haunts us,) but you are able to do it. I count this as a good thing.
We often wish we could go back and do it over again, knowing that we would do better the 2nd time around. We don't often admit that these things that we learn is why we are here. We have discussed it before....... the refiners fire.
So, the refining continues. You learn, and you grow.
It almost makes one think that......... God knows what he is doing.

So I am doing better. Still with H. Still in a broken marriage in that there is no love relationship, no physical contact. But we live together and I still feel that is the best way that I can give my boys what they need materially. It is broken but better than the alternative.

I know why you are doing what you are doing. Swan's Song makes some good points though. I have thought about this part over and over. Logic says that Swan's song is correct. I believe it would be good for you to think on this. Not in a defensive way, but think through the logic of the suggestions given. There is a lot there for you to consider. You can comment or not, but the exercise will be helpful.

I know though, that God often knows things that we do not. We can get direction from God through prayer. I know you pray. I have to believe that even if you don't feel direct intervention, you do get help. My W and I would like to come over and spend an evening and let you talk this one through (sometime soon.) Do you have plans for new years eve? You probably do, I best put it off for a week or two.

I had an experience a few weeks ago that I thought that you would like to hear. I have never before then felt loved by God, never felt in my heart that God really loved me. I knew that God was there, that He tried to let me know that He was there, but I never felt loved.

This part worries me........?? Bothers me??? Not sure of the right word to use here. A person who tries as hard as you have tried, and you hadn't felt God's love before now. I read what I am typing out, and it sounds like I am judging YOU, but I am not. I am feeling empathy for what you have been through WITHOUT KNOWING. I have traveled a rough road at times, but I always knew. Perhaps I might also pray that you will be able to feel more often how much your Father in Heaven loves you. It must be hard, for your earthly Father did not always follow the pattern that our Heavenly Father gives us as a guide. It would be hard to know what to look for. I would really like to talk to you about this. Perhaps we can add to the queue.

So on this afternoon, I was feeling quite low, feeling the longing to just be hugged by someone, to know the warmth that comes from being wrapped in someone's loving arms. I wished I could have that because at times I feel so lonely, having lost that love from my husband, and not regained it. At times, I cannot help but feel this, which is one reason why I love that our Al-Anon group always greet each other with hugs. So I left work and was trudging up the road, thinking and feeling these thoughts. I rounded a corner and there, sitting on a little bench, was a young man wearing an immaculate pin-striped suit and his graduation cap and gown. My work is next-door to a college so I assumed he was a graduating student. He had the biggest smile on his face and he just radiated joy. He smiled at me with that smile and I could not help but smile back. "Congratulations!" I said, and he just threw out both of his arms and boomed "Want a hug?!". I just about fell over backwards!! God couldn't have responded to my need more instantaneously!! I started back and then said "Of course! I'll give you a hug!" and he jumped to his feet and swept me up in a big, joyful hug. I finally felt the love of God in that moment. God saw I needed a hug and pointed his finger at that man and said "Give that woman a hug from Me!" Wow! And maybe I was an angel to him, too. Maybe his mom wasn't there to see him graduate. I looked at him and I said "I have two sons, and you know, I feel like a proud mom. So just...well done, you!" He beamed at me and said "Thank you," and then I went on my way. When I have those difficult moments in my life, I am going to remember that hug and that moment.

Well, I am glad you had this experience. May you have many, many more. And when you pray, I hope you will ask "Father, are you there?" and that you will get the same answer that I have received many times.

So I feel like I am being looked after. I am focusing on my own healing now and leaving H up to God. H has a Higher Power, too, and has to find his own way to healing himself. Al-Anon is helping me to help my sister, too. She still has a lot of anger against my dad, and she is the one who is closer to him geographically. Dad is doing well. He is still sober, and although he has beaten the cancer, he is much more frail and age is catching up with him. I don't know when I will get to see him again, but I touch base with him on the phone every week. That's the way it has to be right now.

Do the best you can do. Ask God for help, and expect that he (God) will give direction. God answers our prayers, but it is often (usually) through others that he helps us, and meets our needs. I believe you will get help.

I am doing best if I take everything One Day at a Time. Thank you for all you have done for me, and for being a light in a dark place. Wishing you and your family light in darkness at all times.

I know you find comfort in the scriptures. Look up Matthew 5:14-16.
I think we are all lights to each other when we believe, and when we try.

Remember that God still does miracles according to our faith. He wants you to have a wonderful life, and he wants you to succeed. He DOES NOT want you to only exist. May you feel this, and know that it is true as you read, and study his word.

Sometimes people think that they are doomed because of past decisions, and that they will never have the happiness they seek. The atonement of Christ makes it possible for us to rise above our mistakes, and partake of all the blessings that God has for his children. Including a happy marriage, and a wonderful family life. If this is your goal (and I know it is) then HE can make it possible for you, even taking into consideration all that has happened up until this time.

One more suggestion -
I love to hear the hymns that we sing in church. They have become dear to me over the years, and I often find my self singing to myself as I work. None are so special as the ones we sing at Christmas time. I recommend that you read or sing some of these, and see if you feel the Love of God telling you that he is there, and that he cares about YOU PERSONALLY. I think you will. I know that your hymn book might be different from mine, but I think there is comfort to be found there.

I hope you don't mind if I refer you to one of my favorites (for any time of year.)
http://is.gd/gCCDop

May the peace of God be in your heart now, and always.

SS
Posted By: friend4life Re: Calling still seeking... - 07/27/12 05:41 PM
Bless you both for replying to me. I will reply in detail soon. You are both blessings to me. I am doing well.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Calling still seeking... - 08/22/12 02:27 AM
I did read your post, and am waiting to hear from you.

It is nice to hear that you are doing well.

SS
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