I got home and saw that god [email]d@mned[/email] shirt (excuse me but I'm P'Od) and I cut it to pieces and then sent a scathing email. I won't post it here, because of some of the language.

I am soooo angry at him. I'm so disappointed in myself for allowing this behavior of disrespect to continue. I'm REALLY tired of his f'n silence on ALL matters. I just lost it. I'm at the point where I don't know if I can continue with recovery under such strained conditions.

I'm just so angry right now.

Mulan, I have NEVER felt (since childhood) that my pain was important, so I have NEVER complained or voiced it.

I've been struggling a great deal with this. My fear that he will leave overcame me. I'm getting to the point that I don't care. What do I do now?

Breathe!!!!!

DEEP!!!

Calm down...

That's what i see you needing to do right now!

breathe!!!

(((SL))))

It's going to be okay...

Oh, Rin, I don't know much, but I certainly know that I am going to be okay.

I'm just tired of this method of recovery, WAITING for him to come around to even respect the teensiest little thing, like not bringing OW's presents or crap of any kind into MY home. That's just ridiculous, and I can't believe that I have allowed it for this long.

SL, I did the very same thing to a shirt OW gave my FWH for Christmas. This was after he came home the 1st time and the same night I found the "love letters" he'd written to her and pictures of her hidden away SINCE he'd been home.

I totally understand. He was FURIOUS. But remember, I didn't do things the MB way.

Betcha got his attention now.

I know that YOU are going to be okay...but it's an AO, and that's going to hit his LB...of course you're has been taking a hit these days too!

JMHO, but to him he's probably thinking it's JUST a shirt...I know POWS didn't see things from my POV...so be prepared to hear that one...or it reminds me of my mistake...I heard that one too...

I just think that you need to calm down so you can think clearly...hence deep breaths!

Oh, I heard that one too when he first brought it home. But for me it represented oh so much more.

Oh, MEggy, thank God you guys are posting to me. I need the support; I will take 2x4s, whatever, I just can't go this route anymore. It's not working.

I still want to do things the MB way, but I have a resistant spouse. I can only do my part, not his, and he's NOT doing it, IMO.

I'm no longer afraid of losing him; I'm afraid of losing me. I want him in my life, in this marriage, but I can't make him do it. I can't make him find remorse; I can't make him contribute. It's up to him, and if I have been making it all too easy on him to skate by and have everything be the same, then I AM TO BLAME.

THat shirt represents how much more HE means to this marriage than WE mean. It's just not working.

I don't feel cared for, even if he does buy me cookies and put my clothes in the hamper. THat shirt negates it all. That shirt is a HUGE slap in the face.

I think I need to get out of here. I may just take my son to dinner, get out of this house.

You've got mail!

Okay Mimi, thank you for posting even when you are trying to make an exit.

Yeah, but now that shirt is cut up into little pieces, so it only WAS a huge slap in the face.

Why not take the little pieces and have a ceremonial burning in the back yard? Invest all the bad feelings about it into the pieces and let them drift away with the smoke. Then stand up, dust off your hands, and go about your life.

What did LA tell me adn probably all of us?

you say it once...he KNOWS...you mentioned it right? I remember her saying that if I mentioned it more than once than I was trying to control the sitch or was being disrespectful...

I don't know what to tell you...I was in the same sitch...told him and did it matter NO! he was stil inconsiderate and thoughtless of my feelings in my eyes!

it's hard when they are not stepping up to the plate...and you're thinking if I'm patience a little longer it will help...

It's okay SL. You should have done it a long time ago. I like Mulan's idea to scrub the toilets with it and send it back to her.

It was wrong on so many levels for him to keep the shirt let alone wear it.

PM is right, maybe you have his attention now.

I just had the thought of burning that shirt. It represents so many bad things to me.

Oh, thank you for all posting so quickly. I kirked out when I saw that shirt on the floor. I just KIRKED!

Where is that woodchipper when I need it?

Yep. Remember a while back when I told you that during our recovery there were times that I would just lose it and everything would bubble over? My DH was truly remorseful and repentant and would hold me and say, "I understand." He allowed me those moments to get it out. Then we'd be fine. Those times grew less and less and now what he did hardly ever comes up except when I tell him about what's going on with MB or he talks to someone to help them through their own stuff.

I've believed for a long time that you needed to confront your husband (because he's a lot like mine - conflict avoider to the max). I'll probably get shot down for saying that but you can't go on like this much longer. I know they say it takes a couple of years to get over an affair, but isn't that with both parties doing their part... at least a little bit?

(((SL))) You'll be okay. You're a strong woman. Your husband KNOWS this and I hope he'll realize how close he is to losing you.

Okay, so what's KIRKING? I'm in Texas remember? LOL

Meggy, my FWH has not once comforted me in my pain, even when it bubbles over and I show it to him. Not once, has he held me while I cried. HE just stares at me blankly, like a deer in the headlights, waiting for a honk to get him to move.

It's a slang term for going haywire, like you're not in control. Like you're CRAZED!!! It felt [email]d@mn[/email] good to cut that shirt up, though, even if it solves nothing.

Gotta go back and find out what happened here....

????

Exactly. And that's what's wrong with this picture. So what to do? I don't know. I know what I would do at this point, but this is YOUR life.

I know that deer in headlight look...like what's wrong with you...

Meggy, the only thing I know is that I don't want to continue doing anything, anymore, not along the lines that we have. I'm DONE!

I blame myself -

and yet my first reaction is, "It's about time!"


You are now a member of the Plan FU club. And one usually joins this club when one's boundaries have been non-existent and/or trampled on for so long that one bypasses plans A, B, C and D and goes straight to Plan FU.


Of course you are. The problem is, you've been angry for a real, real long time, but did nothing but stuff it down and try to ignore it. You can see why that is never the thing to do - because stuffing your anger does not make it go away. It only puts it under more and more and more pressure until it finally EXPLODES like it did today.


That is terribly sad. Of course your pain and all of your feelings were important. The only mistake you made was being around people who somehow managed to convince you that your pain and your feelings were not important.


Just hang on. You have made a real breakthrough - you got mad as ****** and you're not going to take it anymore.

Good for you.

If you need to, get out of the house for a while. Do Not Apologize For Your Feelings. Do Not Apologize For Your Pain.

Your task now is to learn to handle your pain and anger in an appropriate way that is healthy for you.

Trying to disregard your feelings as "not important" is not healthy or constructive.

Stuffing pain and anger is not healthy or constructive.

Exploding with rage, though understandable, is not healthy or constructive.

Your task is to find the place in between "stuffing my feelings" and "exploding with rage".

We can try to help you here, and we will do what we can, but you may feel much better also having professionals help you. You could certainly call the Harleys, and you may want to find a good IC that you can see face to face. (I have not kept up with your thread so I'm not sure if you're already in MC or IC.)

So - for right now - Don't Apologize. You had enough, you got mad as ******, and you're not going to take it anymore.

Prepare for your life to get a whole lot better.
Mulan

P.S. Mulan is proud of you - not for the rage, but for finally standing up for yourself. You won't *always* have to destroy garments and send blistering emails in order to stand up for yourself. Now that you've done this, the door is open for you to find healthy and constructive ways of standing up yourself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

If that's what it takes, then that's what it takes, and it's all good.

Let us know how you're doing.

I agree with PM and Chrisner (eta: And Mulan!)--I don't think that this was a bad thing. View it as cathartic. You did what you needed to do--you took a stand for your own sanity.

Now try to smile and move on.

Yep. When I read your post SL, I thought to myself, "thar she blows!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mulan, thanks so much for coming and posting. I know that you haven't kept up with my thread, but we've crossed paths on the P/A threads quite a bit.

I know that I was living in a REACTIVE universe when I got home, and what I did helped no one.

I am crying because YOU validated my pain; I don't even know you, and you touched me.

I think I've hit MY bottom.

But you're wrong SL. It helped YOU. You may not know it now but you will.


Then there's only one direction to go now.

(((SL)))

Maybe I'm weak, but I just don't have it in me to continue waiting for that pull of the rope, instead of the tug. Now, all my spelunking has gotten me into a deep, dark cave.

I'm willing to claw my way out, but I'm not willing to carry anybody else right now (besides my son)

I guess that shirt won't do that again, will it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This has been building for awhile....I remember you mentioning that shirt before.

I saw my WH at a volleyball game the other day. He was wearing a shirt that I had bought him for Christmas one year. I wanted to rip it off him then and there and cut it up.....he doesn't deserve to enjoy gifts I gave him anymore.

I feel for you, SL. It may not be MB recommended, but this will hopefully make him MOVE. Whatever direction, so be it, but you need him to do SOMETHING.

This may be his wakeup call.

Thinking of you, SL.

Fox

ETA: You are NOT weak, SL. This has been in your face for a long time. We each have our breaking points. You are an incredibly strong woman!

EXACTLY!



And I think that is appropriate. Carrying someone else's weight isn't your job. It isn't even a "nice" thing to do for them because it isn't loving at all to shield someone else from the consequences of their actions, thus stunting their growth.

I won't be one of those who will tell you that I'm proud of you for AO'ing.

And even though it may feel GOOD at the time to let all those angry feelings out, there IS a better way.

The trick is not to let it build up by addressing issues as they come up.

Also, if your H is PA, your AO is only serving to fuel the PA/Spouse of PA dance.

Passive-aggressiveness doesn't exist in a vacuum. It takes two people contributing the right elements in order to sustain it.

Today you played your role like a PA Spouse Star.

And I understand how frustrating it is. I understand it so well.

Don't come at him guns blazing. In fact, that might even be what he's looking for.

Take some time to regain your composure. Don't go back until you are sure you will be able to respond appropriately.

When you do, use your boundary skills, pay attention to the tone of your voice. You can still express your anger about this situation without losing control.

But remember not to feed the cycle.

<snicker>

Taking my little man out to dinner. Thanks to you all for posting.

Frozen, I know I am part of it. I know that what I did was the wrong way.

I told him about how I felt about that shirt MONTHS ago. I just don't know what more to do beyond making him aware that something he does hurts me. After I told him, he still wore it. I guess I need to know what to do under those circumstances. Am I to cut it up right then and there, or tell him that I will not be in his presence as long as that shirt is in his possession?

anyway, my son is now begging me to get going, so I think I will.

Oh, and it felt good for about two seconds. Now, I'm just sad with disappointment on both sides.

I wouldn't even bring up the shirt again. It is no more.

Have fun with DS!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Here is what you do for future reference.

You withdraw. Openly.

You say..you know..I don't FEEL like meeting your needs while I am treated with no consideration or respect.

I have told you several times that wearing a gift from your affair partner hurts and offends me and you have continued to do it even though you know it hurts me.

If we are going to have a freeloader marriage then I am ALSO going to only do what I feel like doing when I feel like doing it. Right now I don't FEEL like doing anything with you or for you so I'm not gonna.

Then you do just that. You let the conflict stand and let his own conscience convict him.

You make your own meals...you don't have conversations with him...you just live your life like he doesn't exist.

In other words you let the rope drop when he drops his end instead of carrying both ends to keep it up.

He is not showing you care or consideration...so he doesn't get the benefit of intimacy with you.

Calmly, coldly, you do not meet his needs.

Incidentally...actually WEARING a gift from the OP is pretty blatant disrespect...very open and not at all concealed or something that wouldn't fall into the category of "usual and expected". Just in case you have been getting told that your feelings are ridiculous and it's just a shirt.

If it's just a shirt then he can "just" get rid of it out of consideration for you.

ya know SL...

during my husband's affair...he bought a very beautiful, gold celtic cross and chain which he never took off.

I assumed that she bought it for him. I hated that cross, I hated that he wore jewelery from her.

He refused to stop wearing it and insisted that it was not given to him by her.

Recovery started....recovery went on....I resented and fumed and hated that shiney gold cross on his neck. How dare he disrespect me and my feelings!!!!!!

I finally got it through my own head that I was making a selfish demand, no matter how righteous I was.

I demanded, he resisted, I fumed...round and round we went.

So I stopped. I did not suck up my feelings. I started expressing myself directly, calmly and without demands.

I brought up my hurt that he wore the necklace probably only once a month - I let go of my expectations that he would react the way I wanted him to.

After a few times....I said it again. No hysteria, no drama, no demands, no expectations.

He looked at my face and lifted the necklace over his head and handed it to me, and said: I swear that she did not give this necklace to me, but if it hurts you that much, its not worth it to me.

Oh my goodness. I was so shocked....I had such a feeling of calm and peace just wash over me. I took the necklace and put it around his neck again on the spot.

Instead of a divisive issue, it became an instant moment of great healing between us.

Now, I could have kept rightously demanding, stuffing, resenting ... and he would have stubbornly dug his heels in for good. And we'd still be fighting about it.

Well heck no, we'd probably have gotten divorced.

Yes, he owes you. But this is not the way to heal a marriage. Is it the end of the world that you did it? No. But I won't cheer you on or say YES, GOOD JOB!

Lovebusting ALWAYS results in harm to your spouse.

This was NOT a step in the right direction for you or him.

Nice story, BR.

SL, are you SURE there is NC???

This SCREAMS of contact to me...my FWH did this EXACT SAME THING during the false recovery.

Your H's actions, including the shirt, and this...are screaming out FOGGY WAYWARD to me.

Remember, waywards could not care less about your pain.

A husband trying to repair his M would care, if even a little bit.

I am sorry to say this to you...but are you SURE there is NC?????

(((SL)))

I hope you had a nice dinner with DS.

I hope you take good care of yourself tonight, and tomorrow, and Sunday.

I hope you do not beat yourself up over any of this. What's done is done.

I hope you recognize that ONE of the consequences (it sounds like) is that you have some added insight into yourself, and what your limits are.

I hope you let PWC own his reaction.

I hope that even though PWC gets to choose his reaction, you are able to learn something about him from it.

I hope you get up, brush yourself off, and keep moving...whatever direction life takes you.

I hope you know that you are amazing, and how lucky DS is to have you.

I agree with SIS on taking care of yourself and taking three, THREE days before doing anything...things usually work themselves out without YOU doing anything in three days...JUST BE...K?

(((Silent)))

Not much to add because everyone else said it so eloquently.

Still

I'm well aware that I screwed up, and i am sorry for the WAY the I conducted myself, NOT for the anger.

The shirt was DEFINITELY a gift from Aimless, as told to me BY PWC.

MF, I have no idea if there has been or is contact. I have his Cell phone records, and his passwords to accounts that I know of. I do not has his work email password. At this point, it there is contact, I don't want to continue. Maybe I'm a quitter, but I'm tired of this particular coaster. I've been thru TWO false recoveries over TWO different women.

THis set us back for sure. I plan on apologizing for the WAY in which I conducted myself, but NOT THE PAIN that his actions has caused.

Good for you.

Him keeping it was disrespectful to you.

You destroying it showed him you will not be disrespected.

It wasn't just a shirt. That is BS and I am not saying Betrayed spouse.

I don't know what you said in the email but it was warranted. My FWW kept crap around from her A and said it was no big deal. Well I kinda did the same thing and it felt great.

Our MC questioned her about it and told her that she purposely kept a Trigger around.

So you removed a trigger. Good for you.

In so many words, PWC stated in his reply that he hadn't thought about the 'origin of that article of clothin in quite some time', and he did not leave it there to show me disrespect. HE then apologized.

I apologized for how I conducted myself, but not for what I conveyed in my email or my pain/anger. THey are mine to own, and I must learn how to deal with them more costructively.

HE said 'Fair enough'.


I think this is now a dead issue, as the shirt is dead. Now, it's going to be a matter of me being more direct and honest about my feelings in the moment, not a long time later, with respect.

I'm not sorry that I cut that shirt to pieces. I don't know if I should be, but I'm not.

SL, this describes my WH exactly; not once in five years has he held or comforted me when I've cried or expressed pain. He stares blankly, sometimes coldly, just as you describe.

It's a large factor in what brought me to start divorce proceedings.

In the couples counselling that H arranged in something of a panic, the counsellor has pushed him hard on this, and what she's revealing is the depth of his anger at women in general. She's picked up very accurately his enmity towards strong women (including her).

It's been a relief to have a neutral third party notice and highlight all the moments when he's aggressive and hostile towards me, and tell him firmly that his behaviour is hurtful.

Like yours, my WH had multiple As (rather more than yours, I think, and with prostitutes thrown in).

I'm wondering if your WH is actually fearful and resentful of you?

TA

Hiya SL,

I am sooooooo proud of you!!!!!!!!!

Wanna know why?

Because I see the ways you have changed your thinking. I see you not beating yourself up for your lapse in self-control and picking yourself up and dusting yourself off and thinking about better ways to handle things in the future.

I particularly love this part...



Oh, and this part too...



You may not have executed this perfectly, but just the fact that you are aware of that speaks volumes about your growth. The fact that you are taking personal responsibility for your part in the interaction while refusing to own his part is FANTASTIC!

I'm really so proud of you for that.

P.S. I think it's just fine that you aren't grieving the loss of the shirt.

P.P.S. I really like the story BrambleRose shared with you about the necklace because it is a very relevant example of a non-destructive way to accomplish what it was you were trying to accomplish with your AO.

You shouldn't be sorry, SL. You had every right to get rid of that shirt.

That WAS incredibly disrespecful of him to keep it.

During Plan B, I got rid of just about every freaking trigger in our house. [Thankfully, he never kept anything OW gave him ~ he threw it all away...before I even knew it existed. But there were still triggers around our house for ME].

I didn't even GIVE them away, I THREW them away. I had tiptoed around this cr*p for long enough, and I finally realized that I have just as much right to live in a pain-free, trigger-free home as he does, and screw it if he didn't like it. I didn't care at that point anyways, I was in Plan B.

FWH knows I did this now, and he understands. He doesn't want me to be reminded of his A anymore than he himself wants to be reminded of it.

And let me tell you...if I ever come across anything else, I would still do the same thing.

If there are serious triggers like that, the BS and/or FWS SHOULD get rid of them. It is only doing harm to the M and recovery efforts by being constantly reminded of such a horrendous act.

It keeps us focusing on the A, and who needs that? We need to move ON, not stay wrapped up in this sick little drama.

I believe this to be true...she is strong where he is weak...POWS, I believe and it has been said that he also has a deep hatred for women...

I believe that the violence that was there at the end was a direct result of his lose of control over me...when I started standing up for myself and quit stuffing my feelings...he didn't have the ability to process my feelings much less his...

SL,

See what happens when you reach a turning point? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He s/b in greater fear than you should. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Why? Because you are moving forward. Read your posts again.

One never knows what will trigger their turning point. Just know it will come and it will happen again. Your H needs to be aware of it so he CAN be there for you.

A dead shirt.... think it looks the same as a live shirt?!!!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> A shredded dead shirt looks the same also. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

So don't apologize for it. Let him know that shirt upset you and if you find more of that kind of stuff, it is obvious you will get upset so what's he going to do about it.

Can tell you a story, later....about a shirt that never made it to my house. LOL!! OW's H took it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

I made him aware in my email that I will not allow any OW POS's gifts, letters, notes, emails, calls, texts, anything to exist in my HOME.

Froz, I thought about what I was going to say at dinner. DS had a good time, and I relaxed quite a bit; really examined my behavior, recognizing what was mine to own (mostly all that dang waiting to voice my anger--stoopid). I hope to avoid this situation in the future by expressing myself more freely.

This last two weeks, I've been in the midst of a pivot, and today, I snapped my heals together like a soldier doing an about face.

Next step is learning to perform the about face in one, short, swift motion. Never letting it lay in wait again.

We are in our separate corners tonight. That's okay. We are still talking, we are still communicating; no one has withdrawn completely; just enough to get our bearings and begin again.

In the past, I would have broken down during this. Right now, I feel calm, peaceful, as if some offensive smell has been irradicated from the household, and replaced with lavendar.

I need to remember this day, and follow the advice of those who have gone before me. I appreciate every NOODLE of advice given. BR, your story speaks volumes, and I have taken it to heart and committed it to memory. It's an example of how I hope to proceed in the future, now that I have a clue.

I'm sorry if I let anybody down; I was acting on pure adrenaline. I didn't follow my own advice to come here first, before doing anything drastic, but that's probably because I was not willing to stop what I was doing.

This is incredibly honest. I think you learned more about you today. Good job.

Well, at least there's that!

I KNEW what I was doing, but the rage just gave me permission to act like a jacka$$. Not good, or smart. That little devil on my shoulder won out this time. Let's hope that angel's laryngitis clears up.

stuffed anger explodes or eats you from the inside out.

you made a choice to go there. next time, you'll recognize, and I hope you will choose not to go there.

Choose to act, instead of react.

Coming out of the fog...the WS is not very in tune with their spouse's feelings.

If you spend the time to tell him calmly without angry outbursts, selfish demands and disrespectful judgements - he'll start to listen instead of withdrawing.

I pulled this quote from another thread because it explains so well what I am trying (and failing) to sucessfully communicate on the "How To Get Your Spouse To Become A Buyer" thread.



I read something you wrote earlier that indicated to me that you have a better understanding of this.

Your situation highlights Dr. Harley's point on the subject of sacrifice. A Renter (sacrificer) uses their Giver to sacrifice to the point of misery until they feel ENTITLED to use their Taker to make selfish demands or use AO in order to get what they want.

And as BrambleRose pointed out, when you use selfish demands as the method to try to coerce someone into giving to you, likely they won't feel very giving as a result.

I am a Recovering Renter.

I don't WANT TO BE a Renter anymore because I see it so clearly now...and dang it if I'm not having the hardest time putting it into words. Every time I try it doesn't look on the screen the way it does in my head. So very frustrating. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Too bad, also, because it's really quite brilliant in there.

Anyway...

For so long, I DID use sacrifice as currency. I refused to believe that I was part of the problem. After all, that was impossible! How could I possibly be part of the problem when I was the "good and noble" spouse who had sacrificed and sacrificed without getting anything in return.

Yeah...woe is me.

And woe WAS me!

But obviously I had a hand in that, too. If I hadn't made the choice to do all that sacrificing, perhaps I wouldn't be so miserable. Patriot didn't make me do that.

I viewed him as selfish because he didn't sacrifice willingly. And when he did sacrifice, it didn't make a deposit for me because he wasn't willing and enthusiastic.

Do you see the twisted logic there? It's a trap! It's "sacrifice to prove your love for me and after you're done I won't accept it as loving because it WAS a sacrifice."

A Freeloader isn't stupid. They can see that there isn't any gain in that for them. So they just let the Renter keep on sacrificing.

And I'm thoroughly convinced now that the ONLY road to long-term marital satisfaction is to adopt the BUYER/BUYER strategy. And that can't happen when you're dealing with a Renter.

You know why they call them Renters? Because obviously they don't plan to stick around forever because if SOMEONE in the marriage is sacrificing, someone is gonna feel as though they got the short end of the stick sooner or later.

A Renter's approach to conflict resolution (sacrifice) might end the conflict right now...and if you don't expect to stick around forever then short-term "patch it up with bubble gum" solutions will suffice.

But in a marriage, that bubble gum isn't gonna hold out forever. And when it just won't do the trick anymore...that marriage has big-time problems. Problems that COULD have been resolved permanently had both spouses taken responsibility for their own satisfaction.

A Renter makes it very difficult for a Freeloader to become a Buyer because when the Renter gets tired of sacrificing, they will make the demand that the Freeloader also sacrifice. If the Renter does manage to successfully convince the Freeloader to sacrifice, it makes the situation even worse because then the Freeloader feels even more entitled to Freeload.

And I have a theory.

It appears to me that the distance from Freeloader to Buyer is much, much shorter than the distance from Renter to Buyer. A Freeloader already is HALF BUYER because they aren't willing to sacrifice.

While a Renter is somewhat more difficult to convert to Buyer because in order to accomplish becoming a BUYER they must overcome the two perceptions that their entire view of relationships is built on. That:

1.) Sacrifice = love.
2.) Not sacrificing = selfish.

Those are very difficult perceptions to overcome.

And it's pretty difficult to convince your Freeloader to use POJA if every time they DO try to use it, their Renter Spouse is either angry with them for not sacrificing or DJ'ing them to pieces by considering them selfish for not being willing and enthusiastic about sacrificing.

I keep seeing this over and over again. And when it happens, I see the Renter Spouses coming here and posting about how their Freeloader refuses to use POJA.

And if you try to tell the Renter Spouse they are playing a role in it, they get mmmmmaaaaaaaadddddddd. They can't BELIEVE you have the audacity to tell them they are part of the problem. THEY are not the problem! They are the good and noble spouse, while their Freeloader is being selfish and TAKING!

And you know what happens then? The Renter Spouse comes back later and posts again about how miserable they are and what martyrs they are for having to deal with such a Freeloader for a spouse. And they want advice...advice they often don't take. I'm seriously wondering (okay, I'll be honest - I'm pretty convinced) that they don't REALLY want advice. What they seem to want is for all the other Renters to give them Renter Kudos' for all the sacrificing they've done. They want ADMIRATION for it! They want the other Renters to pat them on the back and tell them how "noble" they are. That's pretty valuable currency in Renterland.

I don't want to live in Renterland anymore. I'd much prefer to trade "noble" for "satisfying" and "rewarding".

How about you?


Okay, speech over. Darn that was incoherently babbly of me. I hope that made some sort of sense to someone besides myself. I need to force myself to go to bed, but my brain is racing 100 mph.

Night, SL.

SL,

Sorry I wasn't here last night to lend an ear and some support,,,,but it 'sounds' like there was a lot here for you!

Sweetie, I gotta tell you I am not surprised at what happened. Obviously though what I've read, you have worked through a lot of it already,,and very quickly I might add.

You see your actions for what they were - Jusified feelings of pain & hurt due to PWC's actions but an AO in 'how' you reacted.

The shirt was a catalyst to your recent feelings and situation. It is what it is at this point. The important thing now is what you do moving foward.

You are going to be just fine,,,,{{SL}}

sl,

i can sure relate.
bf and i just broke up over the summer after over a year together. there were many false hopes of getting back together up until a little over a month ago.

there were things in our R that bothered me BUT i never addressed them. i have this fear that if i speak up to people they will leave me. (child hood issue) and once i loved him completely i did not want to lose him. so when boundaries of mine got crossed i never said anything and when i did he made me feel so guilty about it that i quickly apologized.

well, i let this build up and one thing about a month and a half ago set me off but good. and all that resentment and anger came to the surface and i let him have it,oh, probably for about a week! then of course, being backed into a corner he retaliated and it got ugly. i have since apologized for being reactionary and for letting things build up. i did NOT say that the things i was angry about were not things i should not have been angry about because they were things i should be angry about. but i did apologize for how i addressed them.

i am still healing from this break up and have chosen not to talk to him or except contact from him at this time. maybe in the future i can, but not right now. i have to protect my heart.

but, what i am saying is, i understand exactly what you did and why you did it. i have learned that in the future i am going to address things as they come up and not worry if it makes the other person go away. if they do, than they are selfish and i don't want them in my life anyway. i can't give and give to someone and get lose myself in the process anymore. i will NOT walk on eggshells. that is not how it is supposed to be.

i give you a lot of credit. i don't post to you much but i have read a lot of you recovery story and you have lasted a lot longer than i could have. something has got to give with him pretty soon or i am afraid you are going to have a very empty love bank and a very full resentment bank.

mlhb

I know I've said this before...but damn Froz...I just picked my jaw up off the table!! You have GROWN!!! I can't help the big giant smile on my face. You have so got it. I think I'm gonna be learning from you now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You are 100% correct. Renter spouses run rampant on this board and throw self-righteous temper tantrums when challenged.

SL - your homework is to read that post at least 5 times! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You can not continue to approach your husband as a WS. Is he still in contact? We don't know. But one way to find out, is to change the dance. His reaction will be pretty telling. As long as you are a renter, you enable his freeloading - and that gets neither of you the marriage you want.

The fact that he was not defensive and angry over the shirt and instead apologized, tells me he is just rather self absorbed and feeling sorry for himself.

When you make selfish demands and angry outbursts, you justify -enable- his withdrawal and freeloading.

SL's incident is to be expected. All that pent up anger was going to come out sooner or later.

Actually, it was good in that it let the WS (Xws?) know in no uncertain terms what 1 of your boundaries are. Now what are the other boundaries you have? These are things you need to acknowledge. They are already in place.

The place where caution is needed is to make sure these outbursts are not dangerous. Ripping up a shirt is a sign of anger so you need to find a way to communicate when you are upset.

For my then Xws & I, it was the words: 'can I ask you a question'? I used that phrase even when I didn't have an A related question, so he never really knew what was coming but it allowed me to capture his attention 1st in a calm manner, then I could put my thoughts in a question form which in turn helped him digest it better. This helped his response attitude and time.

Initially he would ignore me, then I would withdraw and walk away. I did not push my point. I had other ways to vent. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The reason why this worked is that the WS in him was still active in the sense he felt he needed control over me. By my NOT telling him everything until he was in a receptive mood, then he didn't have that control and boy..... was that yanking his chain.

So HE learned to be receptive. My requirements for any conversation was he be receptive (not agree with everything, just hear me out without anger or frustration) and with a good attitude. In turn, I would listen to his reply or understand if I needed to come back at a more convenient time.

In time this showed the Xws that we had learned to live without him..... HE taught us that. As a result, he didn't have the control he craved but the rules of our home required we treat each other with respect and NO WS like attitudes.

This meant each time his WS attitude came out, out came my plan B. Yep..... it lasted a few years AFTER the A ended. That's one reason why recovery takes time. There is an adjustment period on both sides.

Get with Steve for a recovery plan.

L.

Wowzer's Froz!

I'd say that post was SPOT ON! No rambling there; it made perfect sense.

I'm working toward BUYER mode. I am definitely the renter and he is definitely the freeloader. That's okay. Knowing what your dealing with is half the solution.

BR, I'll read and read and read.

I don't believe he is in contact; self-absorbed = yes.

I must learn how to ask for what I need and DO what I need in order to feel satisfied. Even if the needs I ask for aren't met, it's my responsiblity to ASK for that. It's my responsibility to handle my resultant anger and voice it appropriately IN THE MOMENT.

Oh, that whole email was done using JUSTIFICATION (like a WS mindset, eh ). I can't say that I'm at the point where that shirt wouldn't still be cut to pieces, but the AO and DJ's wouldn't have happened.

My PLAN is to read up some more, and really begin implementing the rules. I know it can work. I know we can be better, and I know that I need to change regardless of my situation.

Orchid, thanks for the post

I have talked to Jennifer on three ocassions and have been following her advice.

The advice was meant to help DRAW him in, and has not worked, as of yet.

I'm almost at my end, here, and I have to find a clear way to convey that with PWC. I have already stated that I will not live in a loveless marriage, that I will withdraw if my needs continually go unfulfilled. They have and now I'm losing my will to love him truly and fully.

I'm not enthusiastic about this marriage as it is. Some things are going to have to change. I'm not sure what, but I plan on talking with him about it. I've been thinking about it all morning. How really DONE I am with this approach.

I am willing to coach with the Harley's, but not my FWH. I can plan all I want with them, but if he's not on board and not 'coming around', there's no amount of work I can do until he makes a decision to take this leap with me.

That will be step one.

I can't know what he holds inside his head, if he feels better, safer, stronger. He does not convey that, he is cagey. I'm just not interested in fostering this behavior in him by continuing to give to him, and be willing to TAKE nothing or receive nothing. It's just not working.

(((SL)))

Lots of good help for you here. Hang in there.

Hey Sl, I just wanted to thank you for the thread...there has been a ton of useful info posted here and I wanted you to know that you ARE helping OP sharing your strength, hope, and experience!

THank YOU!

Frozen...AMAZING you were right on with your post...no babble there!!!! Thank you.

Sl, I agree with Striven. And I'll keep you and your H in my thoughts and prayers.

I haven't read all your thread so forgive me for asking if you've already posted...Are you sure your H is NOT trying at all? Could it be you are so hurt/disappointed, etc. that you can't SEE it? One thing LA has said to me, LOOK FOR ANY CHANGE, NOTICE ALL. My WH is making progress, SLOWLY (to slow for me but hey progress.) He is NOT necessarily doing it the way I like/want/need BUT he is making changes that before LA's intervention I probably would have taken for granted or not even noticed.

And I know it was not the MB way...sorry...I'm glad you were able to get rid of a trigger, I'm sorry it was anger boiling over tho. There really is a peace that comes from handling a situation without the anger and you feel such joy in being able to handle a hostile situation without anger, but I do feel the anger at times too.

(((take care)))

Well, I had a very long conversation with PWC, and it seems he just can't do what he doesn't believe in, and he does not believe in us. I have asked him to decide if he wants to recover; all indications point to no. If the answer is no, I will not continue; I will be going back to the darkness of Plan B, more likely to be used for me to detach and prepare for divorce.

I will not be filing, as I do not want this, in any way.

I HAVE noticed his changes (and have enumerated them to hiim, and thanked him many times over), but it has been CLEAR since day one that he has not been interested in giving me my top EN's, nor really contributing to the M until he FELT it. According to his explanations, the conclusion I draw is he does not believe in love, not NON ROMANTIC love. HE does not believe we can get back what was lost, and has said that he has been unhappy since BEFORE we got married.

I'm done. I cry for my son, but can only control what I do. I will not continue in this feudal arrangement.

I'm sorry for disappointing so many hear, but this should teach so many people how NOT to handle ending Plan B. NEVER SETTLE. It's not worth the pain to try to recover with a non remorseful, non commital spouse. It won't work with only one person BELIEVING in M and real love.

Good morning Sunshine! Saw you online and wanted to say hi, wishing you a blessed day!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope for a blessed day too.

I'm going out to Target in a bit to get some shelves for my bedroom. I sewed two curtain panels for my room, one left to go, and I am excited to get the painting done soon. It will be a boudoire soon enough and I'm looking forward to enjoying it.

Target always provides great retail therapy for me. Live in the moment.

I have no comment on what you said above...there aren't words, really. "Good job" is hardly appropriate, but sympathies aren't really appropriate, either.

It is what it is, and you accept that. None of it is pretty; it all sucks, but you are still here, you have grown.

And you are amazing.

Thanks Sis. I am getting ready to head out.

For me, there are very few words also. It's really just sad that we have this opportunity and he is just not open enough to see it. Unfortunately, that blurred vision could cost me and my son dearly, but I will find a way. I have no choice.

Sl,

Yes, my dear, you will find a way that is the path meant for you,,,, which is the best for you and DS.

Continue to believe in you! Keep looking up for guidance.

BTW - Love Target!

SL-
I just read all of your posts, and I just wanted to say that am sorry that it turned out the way it did.

It is too bad that when some WS's come back, when they really do not want to, and confuse the whole situation. I really feel that unless both people can talk, and work on mending the situation, it is not looking good. I went through that with my exH. He would lead me to believe that he was entertaining the idea, but in reality, he was just doing what he felt was 'right'... by putting on a show that he tried, that he WOULD have.... BUT.....

I have come to the realization also that life is so much better without the burden of guessing what is going on in another person's mind, when they cannot even TRY to communicate it. I honestly feel a lot more at peace without the whole "what is going on with him and our M" looming over me...

It is what it is. I am going to make people annoyed, but I feel that if the other person is not TRYING to regain what was once there, or the other person does not even try to satisfy any of your needs (after a significant amount of time).... then what is their purpose in your life? Sometimes it is GOOD to reevaluate the people in your life, and see WHO SHOULD be in it.

You gave it your all, you know that you did. If you DO get a D (which who knows yet, the pages are still unfolding) you will always know that YOU cared, YOU gave it your all, YOU did what you should do to recover your M. You can always remember that.

I wish you the best, and I just wanted to tell you that you are a remarkable, strong woman! And to say that it is understandable about the shirt... If he could not even bother to remember that it hurt you... it was just a blatant act of rudeness.

I will say that I know several couples that are happy together, and sure, they do not always get along, but the difference is that they BOTH want to get along, and they BOTH care about each other. There is NOTHING wrong about wanting that out of a R. It IS NOT A MYTH!!!!

Again, I wish you well, and I hope that you stay strong!!!! You have a lot of people here that are pulling for YOU... NOT just your M!!!

No words, SL. Just thoughts and prayers and virtual hugs.

sl ~ why are you giving up? Maybe you should not have settled. Coulda woulda shoulda. Lets deal with where you are now.

First of all - I hope you are posting on the Recovery board. Seeking advice and support from BS still in the throes of plan A and plan B is nice if you just want validation, but what you need is a swift kick in the pants.

Recovery is harder than Plan A or B on the BS. Your husband is not the first WS to act like this.


You really can't expect him to be meeting your needs right now. One of the biggest mistakes the BS makes is thinking that their WS is going to come home and start delivering on ENs.

So my question is...are you meeting HIS ENs?

Do you have confirmation from him about what he needs? Do you have his confirmation that you are on target to meet his needs?

I suspect not - as communication is a big problem in your marriage. If you are sitting around waiting for that big EN pay off from him and resentful of his lack of enthusiasm for the marriage...its going to come out in your tone and your attitude with him. It's going to come out in shredded shirts.

Of course he is not going to feel like meeting your needs.

I've learned the hard way, that if I am unhappy with what my husband is doing for me, I need to address my own behavior. I take a look at how I am doing in meeting HIS needs, and step it up. A few days of this is all I need to get him turned around. I've seen him do the same for me also.

You do realize that, he is watching you, feeling miserable, and thinking to himself, is this a life sentence?

I know he OWES you. But right now, your behaviour simply reinforces his foggy distorted perception of marriage and happiness. He doesn't believe he can be happy with an angry sulking woman. (Yes, I know you arent angry and sulky all the time, but I bet you do have a bad attitude that shows more than you know).

It is going to take you more than a couple of days to show him a changed SL - but your behavior can change HIS feelings - if he is in NC. Since we don't know that he is, for now, assume he is not.

I have no idea what to do. I really don't want to deal with THIS anymore.

We were up pretty late talking Saturday night (Sunday morning), and then I got no more sleep (about 1 hour total).

I had decided that I was going out to Target yesterday to pick up some things for the house and my room. I wasn't planning on waiting for PWC to wake up, so I took a shower and got ready. By the time I was ready, PWC was up, and asked me if I minded that he go with us. I said ok, no problem.

We went to Target, all hunky dory, like the words that were spoken the night before were a dream (nightmare); and he's pretty talkative with me, talking about music and general stuff. After Target he asks me if I want steak for dinner (we were getting very close to our local butcher shop). I said sure, thinking how odd this all is in my head.

I was working on my bedroom, hanging the curtains that I sewed, sanding some spots on the walls that needed corrective mudding; we got to talking about crown molding. HE hinted at getting it done. Soooo, we went out to Lowe's and got some molding, came home and installed it, then had a lovely steak dinner, mostly prepared by him; then we all sat down and watched "Ratatouille" together.

I just don't understand. I don't want this anymore. What do I do? I don't want this kind of NON recovery, where I KNOW that he doesn't WANT it, so he makes no REAL efforts, but when the [censored] hits the fan, he reacts for a day.

I want to tell him to leave; I can't do this with someone who claims that it was 'right, well not right but right for me' (his words) to have the A's.

Silent:

[email]D@mn.[/email]

Sounds like a weekend at the LG household.

Somedays it just doesn't go as it should.

Then, you let him know that it unacceptable.

He works on the moulding and dinner.

And that's ONE day.

That's ONE day closer.

Unacceptable behavior = Talking about it.

Talking about it = Changes

Changes = something better?

To paraphase BR: "Pain is a given, misery is optional"

Recovery is TOUGHER than ending the A.

Really it is.

Everything that was wrong in the M before the A's needs to be reconciled and a NEW way created.

You and PWC are still sorting this out.

{{{SL}}}

LG

So, I should just wait and see? I'm really asking. I don't know what to do. I ASSUMED that he would choose to pack up and leave again. I just don't get it.

How are we going to recover? I'm trying to find a new way. How do you find that with someone who claims that they are not interested?

He's not IN an A, he's not IN contact with anyone.

Does this really remind you of things that you said, LG?

HE SAYS terrible things, then he helps with the moulding and cooks me dinner, and everything feels status quo. I'm so confused by this.

SL,

I had something to tell you, but after reading BR's post, I'm having second thoughts about leading you down the wrong path because I think maybe you and I are pretty much at very similar places in our Recoveries.

As far as his behavior being confusing...I can offer you an outsider's perspective. Of course it *could* be a DJ, but let's call it a guess, shall we?

Possibly he sees or senses the changes you are making and that you have raised the bar somewhat regarding what you are willing/not willing to accept.

Maybe his earlier stance (that he wasn't willing to try) was sort of a scare tactic to try to get you to move your boundary.

It has the feel of a power play and manipulation to me.

Silent:

He has LOST everything.

His A partner
His second A partner
His good name.
Many other things I can imagine.

And what does he have now?

HE's not sure yet.

Right?

Consistency? On YOUR Part?


Yes, he says TERRIBLE things.

Did YOU?

Do you feel you understand him better?

No.

So talk some more.

Even if you have to create a crisis to make it happen.

Destroying the shirt = crisis.

Crisis = Means PWC starts to talk.

"OOOPS" "Pushed S/L too far with that."

So, lets start working on this.

Stop accepting unacceptable behavior and start holding him up to his side of the bargain.

And never threaten divorce. Cause you are unwilling to do it.

But you are willing to just do about everthing less than Plan D. And HE can sense that as well.

Working for RECOVERY.

Remember that.

It's MORE difficult.

LG

So my question is...are you meeting HIS ENs?

Do you have confirmation from him about what he needs? Do you have his confirmation that you are on target to meet his needs?


This is where I'm so frustrated. I have tried to guess on his EN's and fill them. I have asked about WHAT they are and tried to fill them. I'm not making excuses for my behavior with the shirt. Not at all. I'm trying to figure out what I can do for him to help him feel more comfortable with his decision to come home.

For instance, we had a conversation a while back, and part of what he said about ME is that he is not attracted to me. I asked in what ways, but he could not bring himself to say much beyond how he was physically unattracted to me, among OTHER things. So, I set about making changes to become more attractive physically, because that was all I had to go on.

In our conversation the other night, he said that he saw that I was making changes, but I wasn't accurate with some of them, like him not being attracted to me. HE said losing weight was good, but not on the mark with what he MEANT. I told him that I can't guess what he meant. The only thing that he mentioned, when I asked for specificity was weight.

I have done what I can, without having any quidance from him. He pulls away when I touch him--so should I assume affection is not a top EN? He will not have anything close to or in the realm of sex or something related to SF with me, so I can only surmise that SF is not one of his top EN's right now. ADMIRATION has been one that I have been chipping away at. I have sent him emails telling him that I recognized he did this or that; I have sent him treats at work, with notes telling him that I appreciate this or that. I've sent him letters, telling him I love him, and enumerating why.

Yes, I'm sure my frustration does shine through sometimes, and I have taken measures to work on that.

No, I have not posted on the recovery board. I have read there. Since most of my threads were here, I just thought it better to keep it on GQII. I certainly can post there.

Froz, I'm very muddled and confused right now, so your instinct may be dead on [email]b@lls[/email] accurate.

I agree with BR, that I can only change me. Anything I have read says that.



In our conversation, I asked him if he was willing to tell me something, even one thing, that he wants from me. To give me a roadmap, or even just one turn on the roadmap. I asked him to be critical of me, and tell me what he believes needs to change.

I have been very honest in my postings, I have held nothing back with you guys. I have taken your advice and made some MAJOR changes. I have slipped and fallen backwards. I know that I will always have work to do.

A swift kick in the pants is fine. I get them a lot these days.

LG, I did say terrible things in my email, which I quickly apologized for. I did tell him that there was truth in what I wrote, but I handled it very poorly and wanted to talk about it. When we talked, face to face, I said nothing mean, nasty or otherwise.

I KNOW I was wrong. I get that.

I made it clear that I want a recovered, happy, safe marriage with him; that I do not want a D.

You are right, this is tough. Like I said, I'm confused. Just as PWC has never done this (recovery) neither have I, so I'm learning as I go, and I WILL make mistakes.

The angry outburst taught me a valuable lesson, to talk about what's in my head, for he will not know unless I do, and to ask for what I need.

I set about doing that Saturday evening, and came out even more confused than going in.

I also think that he wants more recreational companionship. I have asked him what he likes to do. He doesn't respond, except to say he doesn't want to spend time with me. I find it odd, because we spent the whole day together yesterday; he chose to.

SIL,

You posted on my thread on Friday and mentioned this shirt. I hope my thread did not have anything to do with your outburst.

It seems we both need to learn how to not be renters. We will try together and wish each other luck.

S_C

Just to let you know i would have done the same thing you did and by what everyone is saying it definitely is the WRONG thing to do.

Lots of HARD work some days i think i don't want to do it anymore and then others i think it is so worth fighting for still.

This was a great weekend so i am on the good side today.

((((SIL))))

Make that three of us.

Still Crazy, this would have happened regardless of what I posted on your thread. I was hitting the anger wall, it just happened to be a subject that came up here.

I am responsible for my behavior. I know it was wrong. I know that I did exactly what he expected I would do, as this has been our pattern for some time. The pattern won't change until I do.

SL ~ your husband isn't making sense because HE is still out of control and depressed. He probably doesn't know what he wants and I bet he is in his own sick way trying to protect you from being hurt again.

What did you do together when you got married? Don't sit around waiting for him to make suggestions, just make the plans and encourage him to join you.

Get on with your life. Leave the door open for him to join you and welcome him when he steps through - like yesterday when you went shopping.

Sometimes, you have to ignore what he says and watch what he does. Saying: "I don't want to spend time with you" may just mean, "I can't think of anything I want to do with you".

He's not feeling inspired.

Its not fair or right that he sit on his [censored] letting you do all the heavy lifting. But it is what it is.

Just because he is miserable, and sitting on the pity pot doesn't mean YOU have to be miserable.

Make the choice to be happy.

I bet he'll find a happy busy wife who enjoys living to be dang physically attractive.

PWC said that *I* made us OLD before we were old. HE said that we acted like some old married couple.

I asked how, but didn't get any particulars or specifics. We went out alot, spent lots of time with our friends, worked on renovating our home, had parties. We also lived the day in day out of life together. That part that nobody warns you about; the minutia. I never thought we wern't living, but maybe he did, and was afraid to tell me.

I still have no idea how to remedy this without him telling me more about the 'symptoms' and not being general. Maybe his fear is keeping him from being totally open and honest. He was visibly shaking during the conversation.

It was a pretty calm conversation for the subject matter. I asked a lot of him that evening.

What I learned is that he does not feel any sort of affection toward me; he does not want to spend time with me; he is not attracted to me; he seems angry with me; he's seen my changes, but they don't change how he feels toward me. He does not believe in US, or ME.

He sounds very disillusioned.

Silent:

About this:

"I did say terrible things in my email, which I quickly apologized for. I did tell him that there was truth in what I wrote, but I handled it very poorly and wanted to talk about it. When we talked, face to face"

And then you TALKED.

Are you more confused? Yes.

Because he is stuck in the crazy house. Nothing seems "right" and until it does, you will get this lingering "fog-talk"

So after this long confusing talk, this happens:

"I also think that he wants more recreational companionship. I have asked him what he likes to do. He doesn't respond, except to say he doesn't want to spend time with me. I find it odd, because we spent the whole day together yesterday; he chose to."

Note the LAST LINE. "HE CHOSE TO"

You decided when you woke up, this in MY PLAN for today, and HE wasn't going.

And he ASKED if he could go. And you said yes.

And it turned into a really good day.

How can they get SO MANY SPIRALS on the roller-coaster? Not hills and valleys, but spirals. Where you are circling each other, but just can not overcome the centrifigal force to reach out to each other.

Until the two of you find a way. Like you did from Friday to Sunday Night. Thrown against the sides, until the two of you reached back across, and at the least, spun together.

That's how it goes.

Now start working to hold on, and stop the spinning.

What was your plan for 15 hours together THIS WEEK?

LG

I'm hearing him, BR. I concurred exactly what you posted. I don't know if that means I'm learning or growing or what.

I have to say, despite the confusion, I felt my actions yesterday were more in line with who I want to be. I really do not want to wait around for him to TELL me what he wants. I want this to be more natural.

I liked that I told him we were going to Target, and then he asked if he could come along. I was surprised that he wanted to come, and was happy to hear him ask.

I liked that he suggested we go ahead and get the moulding; I loved that he was dead set on getting it done yesterday. i loved that he pushed through after dinner and got it done. I loved that he then broke out the caulk and did the finish work. I think I will tell him that now.

LG, My lord, that was beautiful. It makes so much sense. My head is clearing quite a bit today. I have to keep pushing myself to SEE.

You are right; we were spiraling, and I reached across (the conversation) and he reached across (the whole day Sunday) and we spiraled down together.

Hmmm, with Thanksgiving upon us, there is much to do around the house. I think I will ask him to help me prep the game room, and then ask him to join me in a game of pool, for starters. We always have done well when we worked together. .

S/L:

Your H said this:

"We went out alot, spent lots of time with our friends, worked on renovating our home, had parties."

But then you guys got OLD.

No.

You had DS.

Your WHOLE WORLD changed.

But PWC? He wanted the same thing that he had.

Common. Been there, Done that. Stories about that ABOUND on this website.

You WERE taking care of DS, and PWC wanted to have FUN.

But he also wanted a part in all this, and still doesn't feel a way in.

You describe that he is real good with DS, but rarely describe fun with YOU, DS and PWC.

Because he is NOT part of the DS and S/L circle. He steps into the father role, and then he steps back, and S/L takes over.

And THAT issue just occurred to me. Please look into that.

And about this:

"Maybe his fear is keeping him from being totally open and honest. He was visibly shaking during the conversation."

What he was telling you? Don't you THINK he would have the fear to tell you this? That he doesn't realize how this CONVERSATION can change the rest of his life?

He might actually believe all the stuff he just told you. Probably not.

He doesn't sound like he trusts his own emotions right now.

We all KNOW here what the RIGHT THING for him to do is.....

Until he walks on that path, then he is confused. And his RIGHT THING might have a slightly different look than yours.

What are HIS EN's?

Whatever you THOUGHT they are, might not be. Or, you are hitting them so WELL it destroys all his reasons for stating that there is NO US.

He's holding onto the fantasy.

Yes, you HAVE work to do.

But this might be a turning point you were looking for. Good or bad.

Either way, you either walk a path with him, or without him. But you will know that better, soon.

{{{SL}}}

LG

From what he told me, I believe that PWC needs to be convinced that this is not ALL there is to us. I believe he needs more recreational companionship; to laugh and play, in order to feel happy with me. I can almost bet on it, and I'm not a betting woman. Much of what he said points to what he deems a lack of fun (real life happening all the time, with no reward).

I hear him.

He said "Just be YOU". After much talk here, and time to look at all that was said, this speaks to me. *I* was always laughing, joking, funny, FUN; no worries, even when there were worries. I worked the worries out as I lightened the mood. I WAS like a lightening bolt. THEN- my mother died. THEN, then--we had our son.

I don't know, but I changed after those things. After my mother died, I lost something of that spark--it all seemed too soon, and I felt more burden, more sadness. Life wasn't nearly as much fun. I know all of this about myself.

Now, as for including PWC in mine and son's fun--I'll work harder to make it OUR fun. We don't feel cohesive, LG, you are dead on with this. We follow rules to coparent, but we don't enjoy our lives as a collective force.

I think you are a long way from calling recovery a failure.

You need to change the filters through which you hear your husband. I think he's told you quite a bit. A visibly shaking man is terrified of going back to his 'old' marriage...but he is anything BUT indifferent.

This is your time to deliver on those promises in Plan A.

Gotcha SL.

Sort of that 'you can catch more flies with honey than something yuckier' saying (can't remember it)?

Froz,

It's vinegar--the yuckier thing.

BR, I think I'm finally hearing him. The conversation scared me, too, except I don't shake anymore, which feels like growth to me. I used to shake during every conversation.

I heard him, but filtered it WRONG. I don't want to go back either.

It's FINALLY clicking with me, how I really need to change myself. I have the knowledge, but haven't really put it to practice. I've read the books and THOUGHT about the changes, and began to make them IN MY HEAD, but not in my heart. I hear him. Some of what he said hurts quite a lot, but it is how he sees it; how he's seen it for some time.

The biggest pain is knowing that he wasn't fully happy even before we got married. That one hurts a great deal, but I hear him. I wouldn't say we were an OLD couple by any stretch of the imagination, but the roaring FIRE that we had was definitely down to a small flame--still not just embers, but not nearly as exciting.

I don't believe that the roaring flame can always be going, but I believe that we can stoke it now and then.

This is why we so often say the BS has to be EMOTIONALLY PREPARED for RECOVERY in order to lead it..when the WS comes back BROKEN...

Mimi, I can now take BOTH yours and BR's advice, eh.

I really had NO idea what this was going to be like. None whatsoever. I learn a lot by what you guys tell me, about your own recoveries, but couldn't fully grasp it until I hit that wall--the wall *I* constructed.

And, for the first time, sitting and watching PWC shake, I saw how lost he was. He's still grasping for that fantasy, and this reality is SCARY. It's a very large step to take. I've taken it, but wasn't fully committed.

I AM NOW. Thank God I hit that wall.

Silent:

All these things?

Makes us WHO we are.

Darn, to be a happy-go-lucky as I was before I got married and had responsibilities.

Before the house.
Before the Kid.
Before.................

We are happy today, because we choose to be.

You can go back there.

LG

LG,

I WANT to go back there, if only to rescue that free part of me, and bring her back to the now.

I know I've said this before, but I think I really had a breakthrough. I'm not afraid to recover now. We won't have more of the same, because we aren't the same.

I think it's part of your job, though, to CREATE some of what he is calling FANTASY though. DON'T BE AN OLD MARRIED COUPLE!!

We're OLD and NOT an OLD MARRIED COUPLE..LOL....

Oh, I hear him now. I really do. I don't want us to be an old couple either. If he believes that, I will have to go about systematically changing how I do things so that he knows I want to feel young with him.

I want some fantasy with him, too. I'm not going to stomp my feet like a child anymore, trying to force water from a stone; I'm going to take action.

You go, Girl!!

It all makes sense now.

I've said it to so many others, and now I really believe it. STOP LISTENING, START WATCHING. Believe in what you see.

This may be a bit of FOG...REWRITING HISTORY for JUSTIFICATION...



AND WHY NOT, MS LIGHNTNING BOLT????

If I can get there, YOU CAN TOO...work towards a PASSIONATE MARRIAGE..it's WONDERFUL..and I don't mean just the SF..THE EMOTIONAL INTIMACY...scary and long road to travel for the EMOTIONALLY DETACHED..but you can do it...

IGNITE THAT FIRE AND KEEP IT BURNING!!!

Carve out time for JUST YOU AND HIM..no IFS, ANDS or BUTS...TIME TO PLAY AND HAVE FUN...get in touch with the CHILD in you...

Well, that's my frame of mind NOW. Tomorrow could prove different. I'm learning and changing as we speak. I feel like a BUYER today.

I HOPE we can keep a roaring fire. That's a step in the right direction.

Or, dare I say it, foggy?

I just skimmed over the last two pages--I need to maintain some distance on this one--but I'm glad to hear that things seem to be moving in the right direction.

Hey guy,

Oh, foggy would accurately describe it. It's REAL.

I think those that have recovered or are further along in recovery have a lot to offer me, in terms of explanation, advice and a plan. In my experience, it hasn't been possible to fully understand something until you experience it and work your way through it.

I can understand those in Plan A, Plan B (I'm better with Plan B), because I lived it.

Those who say recovery is tough are not kidding. I just didn't know what that meant for me; now I do.

I think that this is true, certainly for me.

As an aside, I think that it also explains some of the frustration long-timers here have with new people who can't quite get their mind around the difficult parts.

Like I said, though, I'm happy that you're getting good advice.

Each time we enter a new phase (the forum posters), we have a big learning curve. There are new and different challenges. The recovered (personal and marriage-wise) have already witnessed, worked through and survived what we are faced with. They've got our backs, no matter how much we rail against it.

Mimi has been telling me that PWC is in withdrawal, but to me it was hard to live with him and use the 'excuse' that he was in withdrawal and wouldn't commit to meeting my EN's. NOW, I get it. It's not an excuse, it's an explanation of the behavior, and should be used as a tool of how to deal with someone.

Until you are faced with the fog babble, you have no idea of how to deal with it. All of this time, I've been WAITING to see change, the change that *I* wanted him to exhibit, but I wasn't changing to elicit the appropriate response. I was sacrificing, and growing resentful.

I should have expressed pain over that shirt the first day I saw it. I did say something during our false recovery, but just assumed he would comply to what was in my HEAD.
I should not have let it lay. To him, it was insignificant. This may be fog, but that's what I'm dealing with. I should have repeated the process until he recognized the pain and did something about it. I chose to be triggered, and do nothing about it.

Now, I'm not excusing his behavior. I'm explaining it.

I have to say, although the approach was wrong, I'm happy that shirt is gone.

It's always easier to see it for someone else. It was easier for me to label his behavior as fog because I'm not facing it myself. Perhaps, however, now it will be easier for me to recognize the withdrawal-fog should I ever get to that point.


I'm a shades of gray guy. There's "wrong," and there's "less helpful than some other ways of dealing with it."

I don't think that your shirt-disposal technique was wrong. The accompanying email, on the other hand, I would slap you around over had it not already been done. Regardless, I don't think you need to beat yourself up over this anymore.

SL - My ex's affair ended in January of this year. I think they still had a bit of contact, but they were done. My ex has been calling/writing me since then. He is just NOW becoming unfoggy. For months and months he was not interested at all in me.

And the way he talks about EVERYTHING is just so different. I haven't done anything, and now he is back to normal. I suggest you do the best you can to make a good life for yourself. When he becomes unfogged it will make all of the difference.

guy, I'm not beating myself up over the 'shirt incident' anymore; It may have been the wrong approach, but what it did was teach me soooo much about myself. I'm grateful for that. Regardless of what PWC has or has not done, I have made a real breakthrough. It's good to know that my friends are here to slap me around. Much needed...

Believer, I read your thread about your ex coming back. You may not want to reconcile, but you did get to see your old friend again. That's a good thing. One can hope that he will learn something from his mistakes.

I plan on doing more along the lines of doing for myself. I really have been doing the sacrificing thing, and that is just not good for anybody.

I plan on taking on a buyer mentality, doing the things necessary until they become habit. I think any valuable skill takes oodles of practice.

you know... my husband and I have started watching Chef Gordon Ramsey in "Kitchen Nightmares" - both the UK and the US versions. We find alot of his business/management and leadership techniques interesting.

My husband asked me why on earth women find him attractive. And I had to tell my husband: many women find confidence and leadership to be very very hot. A man who knows what he wants and what he likes and goes after it is very sexy.

I bet Mr. SL feels the same way about women.

I love 'Kitchen Nightmares'. I do like Ramsey's strategy and his no nonsense approach. He cares about helping these people and knows what it takes to. I do find it sexy, too.

Good FOOD for thought, BR.

Confidence is something I'm regaining. I get a lot from overcoming these obstacles.

SL, I'm sorry that it appears your M isn't working towards what you need. Can't say I blame you either. YOU have done all you can. And you know from everything LA has told me and you've read, YOU CAN"T CHANGE ANYONE OTHER THAN YOU.

I am proud of your trying all that you can, I'm also proud of the fact you realize what you can and cannot live with or without. I know if your WH follows through on not wanting to recover your M, YOU and your son will make it! YOU will be strong, you've gained confidence.

SL you and your family remain in my prayers.

SL,


Now this,,,



Is a GREAT thing to hear!

Have a Goddess kind of day today! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It would be best if he never visits my kitchen. He might pop a brain vein.

Have a great Thanksgiving SL.

Ramsey would lose his noodle in my kitchen this Thanksgiving, with me hacking up a lung from having the Rocky pneumonia.

I just got back from the doc, and lo and behold, I got the WET LUNG.

I can't tell you how much I love the Kindergarten, especially the BUGS that DS brings home to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I STILL plan on having a great day. I think I'll just get drunk and eat some turkey.

LIGHTNING BOLT is BACK!!! HALLELUJAH!! Will there be dancing on the table??..LOL..I guess not this time since you're sick...sorry about that, SL...

Mimi, I consider it walking pneumonia, so it's only one step further to get to 'dancing' pneumonia.

It's not all that bad; just feels like an anvil on my chest and I'm a bit tired. Looking forward to the antibiotics doing their job~

You have a wonderful holiday, Mimi!

You and I certainly are in different life stages...

My OS is going to his GF's house for Thanksgiving in another state...

My YS is going with us to a gourmet restaurant 'cause I asked for a "GLAMOROUS" Thanksgiving...being such a GODDESS these days and everything..I'm excited...I'm going for the PRIME RIB...forget the TURKEY... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

SL, I'm sorry you're sick. You better rest alot or walking pneumonia can land you in the hospital. I hope you're meds kick in faster than mine did...took almost a whole week of really resting to even start to feel better.

((SL)) feel better.

Sl,


Sorry you are feelin illin! Hope you are on the upside by tomorrow for that dance on the table!!

About this,,,

Now be nice,,, not ALL BUGS are bad! I won't take this comment personally! LOL!

Seriously, though, I want to tell you how amazing you've been this week. From meltdown to now working on regonizing and changing from the Renter to a Buyer. Your seeing your Renter and committing to doing the ACTIONS of a Buyer!

Wow! Now that is some amazing strength, personal power, and total Goddess like actions!

Go SL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

mvg,
I didn't know it was pneumonia that you had! Zoiks!

Well, I'm at work today, but doing nothing really strenuous, so it's okay. This last year, I've had so many illnesses, they have to be somewhat related to stress. Stress kills, y'know.

Bugsy, baby! You know you're a praying mantis to all of us here! You're a BENEFICIAL BUG!!!

Y'all have a wonderful Holiday!!

And Mimi, your holiday sounds SCRUMTRILESCENT!!!

SL get HOME! You shouldn't be at work!!!! Shame on you for passing everyone your germs ( I almost said bugs! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). YOU NEED REST DEAR!!!!! I'm VERY serious here, you NEED rest.

I also wanted to mention to you something that has really made an impact on different things LA has been trying to explain to me, I read the 5 Love Languages by Gary Chapman. It is a WONDERFUL book. If you get a chance see if your library has it, get it, get in BED, read and REST.

I've got the book already. Haven't finished it yet. I'm currently reading, on and off, 4 different books. I read whatever I think I need that day. Some days I read to learn to COPE (The Language of Letting go), some days I read to help me DO (Feel the Fear, and do it anyway), some days I read to learn about R's (The Five Love Languages).

mvg, thanks for your concern. I'm really okay. I caught things very early, and the doc said I was okay, as long as I did not have an active cough and as long as I didn't do anything strenuous. I was okayed for work, and 'walking'.

"WET LUNG" ??

That must be an Eastern term. I live where people used to come to get rid of their "wet lung." Or die trying.

I hope you feel better soon. Holidays and colds do go hand in hand. You seem to be catching everything but a break.
{{{{{SL}}}}}

I am re-reading historian John Keegan's The Face of Battle (non fiction). All the relationships in that book are pretty short term and end in violence.

Sounds like my relationships with shirts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

You are getting to be SOOO FUNNY these days, MISSY LIGHTNING BOLT!!

We need more of that around here..keep it going!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

SL,

Happy thanksgiving. Just keep your lapbar down and your hands and feet inside the car at all times and you will be ok.

The most important thing is realizing you aren't perfect.

The best love quote I ever heard was "I don't love you inspite of your flaws, I love you because of them."

I think it was flaws, but you get the point. Being in love is seeing where someone is flawed and loving them for that.

We are all flawed. Finding someone that doesn't beat us about the head and neck for them is finding happiness.

I have faith in you.

Sounds like my relationships with shirts.


Some times a good chuckle is just what we need. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SL Ok glad you were oked for work but I still think you need to REST....geezzz I think that's an enabler/co-dep. thing....sorry, would you please rest?

Feel better soon. (((SL)))

I'm resting and relaxing. Thanksgiving was good! I had a great time chatting it up with my big sis, and PWC had a good time hangin with the boys (I could tell by his laughter).

mvg, it's not an enabler/co dependent thing, it's engrained behavior from childhood, living in a house where mom was always working to keep us from starving, so we kids did all our own care. I'm used to doing. The older I get, the more I see this behavior as detrimental to me. It's not something I can change overnight.

My sis and her boyfriend are going to take my son Saturday, to Dave and Busters, giving us some free time. I've asked PWC if he'd like to go to a movie ( I want to see Beowulf). I've said we could do something else, if he has any suggestions, or wants. I overheard him talking to my brother about a concert. He said nothing to me about. Dunno if he will. No REAL answer from him. No suggestions from him.

Harumph! We'll see.

So how come you're telling US about the CONCERT that you heard him talking about and you are not asking HIM about the CONCERT???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I see you holding back on OPEN AND HONEST communication with him.

Your right Mimi. I was actually just about to get up and ask PWC about our free time, and that I overheard him talking about a concert. I saw your post, first.

I'm going to ask right now.

"I could tell by his laughter"..still could be AN ASSUMPTION..SL: "PWC, did you have a good time yesterday?; what did you enjoy?"...give him time to SPEAK HIS TRUTH and to learn that you are interested and open to hearing HIS TRUTH....

Mimi, I just meant that his laughter seemed genuine. I did ask him if he enjoyed the evening. HE said he did, that he enjoyed playing pool, and that the meal was really good.

Believe it or not, I was just making an observation. I did ask.

Also, I just talked to PWC about going out. He wants to go see a cover band of the Beatles. He did not ask me because of the venue. It's his place of employment, where both of his A partners worked. It's a huge trigger. He also did not ask because my sister had not planned on having DS later in the evening, and this would require such. I told him that I would be willing to call her and ask (she said okay, BTW).

I told him that I would like him, still, to ask me about these things. HE said he was going to go, regardless, even if it meant going alone. I told him that I love the Beatles (he knows this), and would like to go with him, that I think it would be fun.

I HONESTLY, do think it will be fun.

How'd he come to the point of saying this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

How did that make you FEEL when he said that?

Did you tell him?

Right after I asked him about the concert that I overheard him talking about. He said that he didn't plan on asking me because of the venue, and was going to go even if it was alone. He asked my brother to go, who did not seem enthused about it (PWC's words).

When he said it, I felt, hmmmm, less sad than insignificant. I told him I felt sad about him not talking to me about it.

Mimi, this is our norm. HE ASSUMES that I wouldn't or won't do this or that, so he doens't bother to ask, and makes decisions on his own about outtings. I don't find out until he's nearly out the door.

I'm trying to change me, but I cannot change him.

I recognized the need to ask and did, and then had a conversation about wanting him to ask regardless of what he THOUGHT to be true; to allow me to speak for myself. Also, to allow him to ask for what he wants.

From our conversation last weekend, he stated he didn't WANT to spend time with me, so it stands to reason that he would go without me.

I'm trying to open the lines of communication. I'm doing my part.

AS I learn, I'll employ the new methods. I'm willing to make these changes, and to be honest and open.

Silent:

I think it would be FUN as well.

But I agree that his response "HE said he was going to go, regardless, even if it meant going alone." was rather ???

Was he talking about going with your Bro?

Was he hoping to run into former A partners? Or are they all gone from working there now?

So.

Have you bought the tickets yet?

Two of them?

And then said: "You don't have to go alone!"

Just thinking!

LG

LG,

HE was not thinking of asking me at all.

His former A partners no longer work there.

No tickets bought, he gets a discount rate.

I'm actually thinking quite a bit about that conversation.

I really do think it would be fun. Here's the thing, I was not asked to go, still not asked after I talked to him. I just said that he doesn't have to go alone, and I would love to go. He said, 'okay'. That isn't an enthusiastic okay, either.

I never have liked to go where I'm not wanted/needed.

In PWC's case, he's said I'm not wanted. Needed? I really can't answer that.

It's OK for you to say: "I would like for you to ASK ME to go out with you rather than you going alone. THAT'S WHAT A HUSBAND AND WIFE DO!" I (said BOLDLY) want to WORK ON OUR MARRIAGE." Yes, you can only work on yourself BUT you can SAY what YOU WANT AND HOW YOU FEEL.



I would tell him how YOU FEEL about HIM not wanting to spend time with you. I would tell him "THAT'S MEAN", IMO. If he can spend time with YOUR BROTHER, why not YOU? What could it hurt?

Mimi, I said all of this this past weekend. Believe me, he is fully aware of how I feel. I can't recount everything said, but this...




Is almost verbatim what I said to him this weekend. I did say that this behavior was MEAN. I told him it made me sad, and I did say 'what could it hurt to spend time together?'; his response was that that's all fine and good, but he had to WANT to spend time with me, and he does not.

I don't know how much more plain he could be. This is why I was talking about ending this recovery, and separating. I can tell him everything about how things affect me. I AM open and honest. I can't BE more clear.

He would RATHER spend time with anyone else, Mimi. This is what I've been getting at.

I just don't know how it is possible that a couple can recover under these conditions, and I don't know that I am willing to continue trying. I feel like a doormat. How is that healthy? I make changes, with him in mind, but I make changes for the better, for me. I do feel better.

These changes have given me the chance to hear his truth and allow it to be so. I don't believe he doesn't mean what he is saying, even if you say it's withdrawal, it seems pretty serious. I have never been faced with such a wall before.


I've done the do. I've been honest and open, and talked about what we can TRY in order to feel more connected. I've asked him what he feels we can do. He says he doesn't WANT to DO. I've told him that his input is of the utmost importance in this process.

This is not the sign of a man that loves his wife, Mimi. At least, it sure as h3ll doesn't FEEL like it.

You're right, SL.

I hadn't grasp the extent of his HOSTILITY until I read that.

Even if he isn't feeling it, he could TRY.

My H at least did that....

IMO, he's trying to set you up to be the BAD GUY...make YOU FLIP OUT and SLIT SHIRTS...KWIM????

It does seem PA as you guys have been saying all along.

I would let him know that you SEE that HE IS NOT TRYING.

I would let him know that you know that there is no chance of RECOVERY under such conditions.

But make it clear that YOU KNOW that it is a CHOICE that HE is making NOT TO AT LEAST TRY and that you that you can feel good about YOURSELF because YOU put forth the effort and he IS NOT. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Then Let him go..BE CHEERY..HEAD UP..CHEST OUT..GODDESS MODE...

(Calmly, assertively): "I see what you are doing, PWC..not going to let you bring me down"....

Don't say anything about DIVORCE..just let it sit...

Address though how it is "WRONG" and "MEAN" for him to CHOOSE to go alone.

Address this ASSERTIVELY yet CALMLY.

Done and done, Mimi.

I have told him that HE is hindering us, that I do not see recovery happening under these conditions. I stopped short of saying I was giving up, but I FEEL like I am. That must show on the outside.

Yes, he is setting me up. I have told him that, but I have also said that I have done all that I believe is humanly possible, under these conditions, to make steps TOWARD him, and that he continually pushes me away.

I really am just so tired of this. I'm sad for my son, but not for me. I would rather be alone than with someone who does not WANT me. I deserve to be wanted.

I have told him that I see what he is doing, he denies he doing anything (why would anybody admit to sabotage?), and I get frustrated, finish the conversation and walk away.

You see, I told him about that shirt and how it made me feel PRIOR to this past week. He doesn't remember, probably because I was not RAGING. I'm not interested in that anymore. It's exhausting.

So PERSONAL RECOVERY...it is...

Make a DEAL with yourself that HE WILL BE THE ONE TO LEAVE...he's already left anyways....

DON'T LET HIM SET YOU UP...

What can YOU do TODAY to continue to UPLIFT YOUR SPIRITS????

GOOD. I think that's the setup. PWC: "I don't know what you're so angry about?"..as he walks out the door to go to the concert... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Already done.

He's not going anywhere right now, but I told him it's his decision. I enumerated all that I have and am willing to do with a WILLING partner in recovery.

I can spend time with my son, and just tend to me. I think I'll take a bath...

S/L:

You overheard a conversation with PWC and Bro.

You asked your H about his conversation.

Expressd your desire to GO to the concert WITH HIM.

And he would still rather go alone.

Seems that either:

1. Your plan A and recovery is working well, and HE HAS to keep YOU OUT.

2. He's so Passive-Agressive, he would make Mulan blush.

3. He doesn't really have a CLUE what he's doing, and is floundering around trying to save face.

Even if he gets discounted tickets, YOU should be going.

DS is in good care.

You planned ahead.

You should GO.

Show HIM Miss Lightening Bolt that he remembers.

Because UNTIL he leaves, HE is CHOOSING you.

Just my .02

LG

I don't see this, LG??? What do you mean? It sounds like more of #2 to me.

The problem is LG, I'm tired of going where I'm TOLD I'm not wanted.

Should or not, he has to ask me now. I'm finished with this line.

I am not diagnosing anyone here, so let's just assume that he's being honest.

I told him that it seemed as if, by his INACTION, he doesn't WANT me, or to recover. He said that's not true.

I'm just not interested in guessing anymore, and doing what could amount to all of the wrong things. I have been at this a long time now guys. He's got to commit. I will take no less. Maybe that's a deal breaker, but it's partly MY deal.

I want to go. That's been made clear, more than once today. He still has yet to ask me or say that he WANTS me to go.

Look, it takes two. I am doing all that I can. I KNOW that now. I have been making excuses for why he cannot commit. NO more. He has to figure out why he hasn't committed and choose, YES, CHOOSE RECOVERY!.

I have stated that I go no further without a real commitment, in whatever way he can voice it or show it.

I made it clear that I NEED MORE.

Again, this is my choice. I have chosen recovery all of this time. I have committed. I am still committed, with a willing partner.

Until he leaves, he either choosing not to decide, doesn't have a place to go YET, OR he chooses me. It's not that cut and dry, LG, not with his track record. I'm not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt anymore.

I have said nothing about him moving out, or divorce. I have only stated that *I* will not continue going in circles.

If it's a concert that YOU want to go to and YOU would personally enjoy by all means GO..whether he goes or not..get all pretty and get there...

CONCERTS are FUN!!

Then what IS true, in his mind?

This isn't fair to you, fog or no fog.

As you said, he's leaving you guessing (in addition to all the heavy lifting). You are standing there with the 800 lb. sofa in your arms and he's standing there going, "hmmmm...should it go here...no, wait, there...??"

Meanwhile your back is breaking.

Drop the sofa. Tell him once he decides for certain where he wants it to go, that you'll be happy to move it to the right spot....together, one on each end, sharing the load.

Ummmm...that sounds like a boundary...not a deal breaker.

You are not willing to give your whole self to a relationship in which the other party makes only a marginal investment.

Your boundary is that a marriage requires a full investment by both parties. Both fully committed, both meeting ENs, POJA, etc.

This isn't you trying to control him. This is you owning what YOU need--what you require--from a marriage, and letting him own his own choice.

If he does not have a similar vision of a marriage, then you (as a couple) have a serious problem indeed.

What do I know? Where's the shovel? I admit that I am highly, highly irritated at PWC. I can't give advice. What mimi said resonated with me, though. The man needs to put up or shut up. [censored] or get off the pot. I don't know enough about boundaries, but someone could probably help you to frame this issue clearly, in a way that you could communicate it to PWC.

Draw a line in the sand...not as a way to control, but to provide you BOTH with greater clarity on what you want and need, with understanding of how willing he is to meet those wants/needs, and hopefully with some resolution.

Unless you are okay with the status quo, which you may be. I don't mean to presume that you are ready to stake your claim.

I am SO not one to give advice.

ETA: Sorry for venting about your sitch on your own thread...(((((SL))))) Good thing sd has the shovel.

Sounds like she's said enough.

I hope she's getting ready for the concert.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sis,

Thanks bunches for chiming in.

It is a boundary.

I agree that he has his own life to live and choices to make and have said as much. I have let him go, not in the sense of pushing him out the door, but in the sense of a healthy relationship. This has to be his choice. If he feels like he has no choice, he's got some thinking to do.

Concerts are oodles of fun. If he doesn't want me to go, I would prefer to just go to the movies. The venue of the concert is veritably safe, but that area of town is not. If it was a concert that I had chosen, then that would be different, but it wasn't.

A movie....so whatcha gonna go see?

Hope you're going!!

Continue to focus on YOU and he will be the BIG LOSER, sadly, in the long run...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I want to go see Beowulf.

I took a bath and feel nice and calm and soothed. Now, DS is in there, playing with his toys. He self entertains so well, I'm taking cues from him.

Gotta love kids! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And you are blessed with your son...

Even my H and grown-up sons can't SELF-ENTERTAIN... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

We went to meet his teacher this week, for parent/teacher conferences, and she said she just loved him. He makes up songs, singing happily to himself. She said he is one of the happiest kids she's ever seen.

His 'self entertaining' gets in the way of independent classwork time, he's always the last to finish, but that's because he's making up stories and songs, playing with his crayons like medievil soldiers, or Star Trek Jedi. She told us to foster that in him. I plan on it.

I am blessed, Mimi, for that I am SURE.

WOW!! That's so GREAT to HEAR!!

And if he's anything like our sons, how he is NOW is the way he will be...

My BOYS, though, were always SOOO BUSY, wanting to PLAY OUTSIDE...and they ended up being big-time ATHLETES...and me being so GIRLY-GIRLY...I tried to make them sit still and use their IMAGINATION in PLAY..never worked...

Ended up going to the concert. Those guys did a really great job! They really sounded like the Beatles. They were also all very good musicians. I thought I was going to lose it when they played "Yesterday", but I kept it together.

It's been a very strange weekend. After the concert, we went to have a nosh before going home. We talked quite a bit, about my mom, his mom, his half brother, dad, etc. and so on. Talked about music and movies, as usual.

Since then, it's just been more of the same, just kinda lazin' around the house. No real interaction between the two of us. I'm not ignoring him, but I'm not fawning over him, either.

I think ye ole love bank is near empty.

I'm not quite sure what to do from here. I am taking care of myself. I'm still cooking and cleaning, something I would do no matter what. I'm still talking and there is no open hostility.

I have been honest and open with PWC about many of my needs and desire for a happy marriage, for the both of us. I have made it clear that I cannot know what I'm doing WRONG unless he opens up and tells me . I cannot know what's working without his participation. I cannot know what's going on in his head.

So, I have a roommate. What to do at this point? Keep on keepin' on.

I have a Christmas party on the 14th that I am looking forward to . It's our annual work PROM. It's loads of fun! My next task is to find something to wear. As long as I can wear sexy high heels, I'm good to go.

I think it's GREAT that you went to the concert.

If I were you, I would schedule a session with Jennifer.

I think YOU are doing GREAT!!

I was just thinking about scheduling with Jennifer. I'm not quite given up on the effort for recovery. I recognize that the last two weeks have been a time of growth for me. I have begun to really open myself up, without fear, and without expectation. I'm looking to be honest.

It has taken me quite a bit of time to become 'buyerly', but I think I started down that path this weekend. When we were out at the concert venue, having some drinks (I had champagne, yyyyyum!), PWC made a joke about something that offends me, and I said so, instead of just sitting there and listening. He said, "It's just a joke", and I said "Yes, well, right now, it's just not funny to me; it hurts me, each time you 'joke' about this subject".

I would have gotten angry before, or just stuffed it and rode along with the joke.

We talked about this and that. I REALLY enjoyed myself, because I wasn't just doing it for him, or our M, but I was doing it for me. I WANTED to enjoy and have fun, so I did. I AM my own worst enemy.

You will be much more ATTRACTIVE to him NOW as you develop increased INNER STRENGTH and CONFIDENCE....and what will be more important to YOU is your self-valuing and SELF-RESPECT...

I just can't believe it took me this long to get BACK to that confidence. I didn't realize how STRIPPED I was of self-value, self-respect.

It's like rebuilding.

As a BS...we have so many expectations about recovery.

We imagine that "At LAST!" we'll have our partner back and willing to work.

The problem is, it takes a broken selfish person to cheat - and thats what you get back. Very rarily do we see an enthusiastic WS return home, ready to help a BS heal.

I like Sis's 800lb sofa. I'll take it a bit farther...

Who choose to pick it up? Your husband couldn't force you to lift that whole thing by yourself...

So put the dang thing down - you choose to pick it up, you can choose to put it down.

Stop expecting anything.

Work on you. Practice being honest - but DETACH from the outcome.

In my home, alcohol is ever present. I hate watching my husband pour himself a drink.

I learned to express that hurt and pain openly and honestly.

I often say: Honey, I am so afraid you are killing yourself with that stuff.

I do not EXPECT: Oh gosh, BR, you are SO RIGHT! I'll pour this down the drain right now and get myself to an AA meeting!

Sometimes, he ignores me. Sometimes he protests that he has almost stopped drinking and this is the first in weeks... *snort*

Regardless...because I detach from my expectation of his response...I can feel good about the fact that I was honest, direct and open about my point of view. What he does about my expression is HIS PROBLEM.

You need to do the same here. I agree with LG, as long as he is home, he IS choosing you.

Detach, let go of expectations. Work on your buyer skills without expecting a specific reaction from HIM.

Think of it as practicing for your marriage when he decides to get on board...or practicing for the next relationship one day in the future.

Either way, YOU gain something from this, regardless of his behavior.

Be happy. Express your truth openly and honestly. Go to concerts, go to movies, pamper yourself - LIVE and LOVE your life - leave him an open invitation to join you - but do not slow down to wait for him to get on board.

Stop wasting your time trying to figure him out.

Oh, and next time you overhear his plans to go somewhere without you - offer to go, don't wait to be asked. Let him say NO I DON'T WANT YOU. Let him shoulder the responsibility.

I think the way you brought it up to him, left you wide open for him to leave the responsibility and onus on you.

BR, thanks for bringing that analogy over to my thread. You are right, I kept trying to lift that couch, expecting him to help me move it.

I really did drop the couch with a giant thud this weekend. If I want it moved, I'll get some furniture gliders and take care of it.

I am not trying to figure him out anymore. I really did figure out a lot about me this past two weeks. I feel so much more calm. I have been open and honest. I feel good for not shouldering anything anymore. There really is no need.

At the time I brought the concert thing up, I did invite myself, but I THOUGHT about much of what I posted, about not being wanted, etc. There will be no more of that, either.

My best friend came to me and asked me if she could watch my kid so that I could go see "Beowulf". I was floored. It was such an honest and sweet gesture. I'm taking her up on it. I am letting PWC know that I would like to spend the time we have 'free' to catch the movie. His choice to come or do something else.

I stopped pampering myself as soon as Plan B ended. I had been doing such a good job of that, too. I think I'm going to enjoy that part, again.

Really great stuff, BR. Thanks for the pushes in the right direction all of this time. I just didn't 'get' it. I was so wrapped up in what HE wasn't GIVING me, I forgot to give to myself.

I'm finally grasping all of this stuff. I am finally grasping what it is to be a BUYER. It's going to take some time to change the behavior, so I'll change the actions first.

It's really a relief to have you and Mimi here posting.

I'm still IN recovery. This all feels sort of strange right now.

SL - just so you know, I saw *Beowulf* right after it opened (3D and IMAX!) It's a fantastic fantasy film, but it's also a powerful metaphor for infidelity and especialy for OC. Those things are not glamourized at all but they are front and center. If you're okay with that, then enjoy a real spectacle. Catch it in 3D/IMAX if you can.
Mulan

Same here..I say this almost EVERYDAY...

JOIN THE CLUB!!

Did I hear a GODDESS say HIGH HEELS????

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Mulan,

I did read your thread about this movie, but I'm still looking forward to spectacle. It looks visually stunning.

I'm actually getting used to how infidelity is, pretty much, on every show and in every movie you can think of. It's just not NEARLY as glamorous in real life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I love high heels! They are so sexy. It's not everyday wear for me, but when I can, I love to slip them on and feel GIRLY. I have a pair of black patent leather peep toes that I adore. I would love a pair of suede red heels.

BR:

You're fostering the creation of another WILD WOMAN.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Succulant, wild, juicy...and REAL.

you got it! welcome to the club SL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

REAL--that really hit me. Thanks you, ladies, for your continued support (sounds like a Bartles and James commercial, but I mean it).

Those guys were great.

Wish I had something useful to contribute, SL, but you have plenty of guidance.

Hey Guy,

I loved those old Bartles and James commercials.

It's really a blessing that I found this forum. I have no idea where I'd be today without it, and I'm glad I don't have to find out.

Sometimes I wonder whether I would have just Gotten On With Things in the bliss of ignorance (accepted the FogTalk as reality and gotten divorced) and I could be recovered now instead of dying the death of a thousand cuts, and this is certainly what my friends want to believe.

But those are weak moments. I'm with you. And Ed here, who has been working on a new Passion Fruit flavor, is with you, too.

LOL!!!


You know what, I really don't think I would really reach personal recovery at quite the same speed without this forum. I WOULD have accepted all of the WRONG things. I would have bought into, by now, that our M was over, and that we could never be in love again. My pride, most certainly, would have come into play, and Iprobably would have initiated a divorce.

Also, by now, i would probably LOATHE PWC, because I would have been exposed to all of his antics during what could have been my Plan B. The love bank would have been bankrupt long, long ago.

For you Guy, Frank and Ed's Baseball tips

That be a NAKED Demon in high heels actually....and when I say naked I mean N-A-K-E-D....half the guys I know want to see it for just that reason....pervs...but be prepaired it is VERY graphic and GORY.....hope you like blood and guts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Howdy surviving! I heard about the gratuitous nudity. I have no problem with NAKED peops. Graphic and gory don't bother me much either.

You know, my nickname is OLE BLOOD N GUTS!!! (I kid, I kid!)

I take it all in as entertainment.

ever see austin powers when he was alking around naked but there was always something blocking his....you know....but the thing blocking it was a total innuendo? yeah plenty of that...haha.....



we need a gladiator pit for all those tride and true WS's that need some sense knocked into them....I would pay to see that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I heard high heels...I'm sorry I was fffffaaaaarrrrr away, in the world of Rin and then I heard the magical words...

SHoes... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was SOOOO mad last month when the dog ate my jessica Simpson high heel shoes...my FAVORITE!!! figure, huh?

Well, I JUST HAD TO GO OUT AND GET ME ANOTHER PAIR...but those were gone...had to settle for another pair...CUTE, SEXY...but not MY PAIR....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />outing:

I'm sorry, i'm still grieving...does someone have a hanky?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Reminds me of my *&$% me boots....I loved those boots...alas they were worn out and we had a ceremonial burning.....I have never found another pair like them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

LOL Rin! I'm so sorry for your loss. What a sad end to a pair of sexy shoes. Did you give them a proper send-off? Is there a grave marker where you can visit them?

Like you, when I hear shoe discussions I come a'runnin! Also, this goes for chocolate! Since I'm now down to 153 (total weight loss now at about 17 lbs), I do partake of the dark chocolate now and then. Today, it was Choxie dark chocolate with espresso coffee. SCRUMTRILESCENT!

what about cookies.....the keebler soft batch cookies with some vanilla ice cream....I have been bad lately....my excuse *shrug* I'm depressed I'm allowed....it makes me feel better.....hahahaha

oooo, surviving, you are a bad influence. Those soft batch cookies are ooey gooey goodness. I also love soft snickerdoodles.

We have really derailed now!

hehehehe <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

sorry don't spiral down to my depth but if you do come to the dark side...we do have cookies....

C'mon. Go right for the dough, guys. If you buy the dough that's supposed to make the mini cookies, you can pick off one cookie's worth of dough and hardly feel guilty at all. And such an array of flavors!!!

It beats soft batch anyday.

*melts into a puddle* you found my super heroine kryptonite...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

While I'm not looking you've turned this into the NEW GODDESS THREAD... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

(Don't tell anybody)...

I ONLY HAD DESSERT for THANKSGIVING DINNER...oops dessertSS

An exquisite buffet...

PURE ECSTACY!!!!

okok fruit.....strawberries and whipped cream.....just let me die in pleasure.....

And it comes conveniently in those snack-sized tubs.

I do love a good soft snickerdoodle, though. I don't think you can get that dough.

Just what I need; cookie dough I can scrape out in the size of a scoop of icecream.

Not wanting to spoil a PIGOUT PARTY but...

CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR WEIGHT LOSS, SL!!

We're CLAPPING!!

Make a bow!!!

Thank you, Thank you!

Yup, the diet is now more a lifestyle change. I'm not looking to be a size 4 again, but I feel better and look better. Virtual pigouts are a much better alternative to teh real thing, anyway, 'cause my friends are feasting with me.

Is it MAKE a bow or TAKE a bow....LOL....

Because this is clearly a really important issue not to be overlooked....I'm pretty sure you can get Snickerdoodle dough.

My local Meijers has a virtual bounty of dough choices...

I know...because I have stood before the display, pondering...

(I never considered the Snickerdoodle because cookies MUST have chocolate, so as far as I am concerned it is just taking up valuable space in the dough display)

Seriously? But what about the cinnamon sprinkle on top that completes the goodness of the cookie? Hmm, I will have to consider this.

SIS, there is a place where you live that has cookie dough by the pound? Do you live in OZ? I am so jealous. Luckily, that place does not exist in B'more, or I would have had a lot more weight to shed on this diet!!!

Now, as far as the chocolate thing goes, I hear ya, Sis. I do love the snickerdoodles, though. I can always break off a piece of chocolate and have it on the side, with my Gingerbread latte and snickerdoodles.

Hey, Guy, you brought the one thing into this conversation that is actually good for you---Cinnamom (may lower blood glucose and cholesterol). So, according to recent studies, a snickerdoodle won't save your life, but the cinnamon will keep the butter from clogging your arteries, and keep the blood sugar low.

EAT UP!!!

WOW! Something that IS good for you! Snickernoodles here I come! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wonder, hmmmmm...

if i put cinnamon in my SHORTBREAD (ingredients -- butter, flour, sugar, more butter, more butter, teensy pinch of salt) can it be given as a HEALTHY gift to my loved ones?

research is necessary in order to delve further into this very serious question.

LMAO....BLAHAHAHHAHA...I have a huge smile this morning, reading all the goodness...it's like living in Willy Wonda land!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Shoes...Well, I threw away the one chewed to pieces and sadly it took a few days before I was able to part with teh one that was okay...it sat on top of my computer the whole time...in which time I searched the internet high and low...

It was a hopeless adventure...in which time, chocalate wasn't even helping... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So, I gathered my courage and trashed it...accepting that I would NEVER have them in my life again...it's hard, but I'm moving on...

Please, a moment of silence ................................................................................................................Thank you!

Cookies, the kids and I baked two dozen Blueberry muffins, two dozen banana nut muffins, and some oatmeal raisin cookies this past Friday night...YOU know new memories and all...well, by Sunday...they were all gone...I think I got three muffins out of the whole thing...LOL

I didn't mind, better that they eat that then all the leftover candy my mom sent to us after Halloween!!! LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All this talk has me wanting to bake some more stuff! LOL
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SIL,

I just wanted to stop by a minute to let you know how much i appreciate reading your thread and mvg's. They both sound EXACTLY like me and my situation and it just gives me such joy to read here how to change myself. I have been trying to do just that and it is working slowly but surely. I have noticed my H has been coming around more too just by me speaking up right then and there rather than letting it build up. Just thought i would let you know.

And sorry to shoot you all down but i prefer FOOD to desserts.

S_C

Still_Crazy: YOU'VE GOT A PROBLEM....LOL... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

No the cinnamon is mixed in for snickerdoodles...I know Otis spunkmeyer maked a snickerdoodle cookie dough I have seen it on the list when my nephew comes a callin for a school fundraiser.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But I have been good for 2 days and i worked out last night and it was invigorating. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rin/Strivn:

Do you know about the DIED AND GONE TO HEAVEN shoe website that starts with a Z and ends with an O? I don't know if we can name it here but if you go to that website you will begin to SALIVATE...and just might find your shoes...

Shoes, glorious shoes...so scrumptious and luscious...

Oh, wait, I think it's supposed to be food glorious food...

OMG....YES! YES! YES! (can you picture that in your head?) LMAO

YEs, I have but have only looked...beautiful...amazing!

LMAO

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You guys won't believe the Manolo Snickerdoodle pumps I saw at Nieman Marcus last weekend.

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! They sound scrumptious, alright!

o_O did you try them on....?????

I'm really not that kind of guy, but they smelled delicious.

How much were they?

Oh, they were well out of my price range. I'm a tennis shoes-Birkenstocks guy. Which reminds me--I just got some new Mocha-colored Birkenstocks, but I didn't think to look for other flavors. I wonder if they make them in, say, chocolate chunk? Sis, do you know?

a guy who knows colors...I have a friend from the board here and when he gets in his feminine tizzies I always tell him your two steps from metro and metro is one step from gay.....it's all in good fun. he gets a kick out of it....

Ok back to snickerdoodles...

From Mimi Still_Crazy: YOU'VE GOT A PROBLEM....LOL...

ROTFLMAO! Geezzz, actually I wished that would work, I'd be rolling on the floor all the time! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SC, Food has it's place but PLEEEASSSEEEE desserts should always be served FIRST! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I almost broke down and bought a fruit tart last night....*sigh*

A FRUIT TART????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You can at least eat a few M&Ms....gee whiz...

but it's good...with custard and a chocolate lined crust....mmm *drools*

I'm in for the CHOCOLATE-LINED CRUST..I'll leave you the FRUIT...

So, here I am, off trolling for shoes on the internet, and you guys are STILL talking about dessert! Gotta love that!

Found THESE shoes; I may have to find a dress to go with the shoes instead of the other way around...

yes but there is something so evilly sexy about strawberries....

You have turned in a GODDESS over night...

YOU LIGHTNING BOLT, YOU... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

SL I LIKE those shoes!!! However for ME...I'd need accident insurance LOL! I have a hard time walking in flats. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Come out and take another bow so that everyone can see THE PRETTY LADY!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I vote for a change in the THREAD NAME that's about your PERSONAL RECOVERY!!!

Hey lady Mimi!

How's things? I like the thread name change; we'll see if it's still possible to edit the original.

I'm doing pretty well these days. I had a babysitter for this Saturday to go catch a movie, but her son has the croup, so I don't think she'll be by. No matter. I emailed PWC and let him know that I would still like to go catch the movie. I told him that I could postpone for another date, if he would like to see it. He replied that it looks interesting, but he's not dying to go. He would be fine if I wanted to go it alone.

I am going to go. I may roll the movie and shopping into one day, so that I have time to spend with the family on Sunday.

I am surprised at how much better I feel. I'm totally honest and open, with not a twinge of resentment in sight. I am so happy to be responsible for my happiness and well-being. It never has been PWC's responsiblity. HE can choose to meet my needs, and he can choose to really make huge deposits with my most important one's; again, up to him.

I'm not indifferent AT ALL to my sitch; it's actually quite the opposite. I feel like some veil has been removed from my eyes. I SEE what he has been doing, and do have a finer appreciation for his struggle, and for how I have approached him, with anger and resentment. It's probably not so easy to LOVE that angry little beast that I portray.

I don't much like making myself unhappy anyway.

I told him, I want to be wanted. To me, that means that I must change myself, in order to be someone to want. To me, that also means that he will have to find his way back to me, if he wants that. It's a 50-50 thing.

I will keep working the recovery path; personal recovery is very important to me now. I was SACRIFICING to save the M. That CLEARLY doesn't work. My H needs his confident, fun loving wife to fall in love with. That's really who I am, at the core. I let that go. It's time to get her back on her feet.

Since last weekend, there has been a shift in the house. PWC seems a bit more relaxed; almost like he had some pressure release, or he's been let of the HOOK. He is responsible for the things he's done in the past, not me. I think I've been so angry and resentful, that it's kept him anchored to all of that guilt and resentment, too. Gotta be prepared for the wrath of SL at a moments notice. YUCKY-POO!

Anyway, I'm just speculating at that; let's just say, I don't feel that there is something keeping us apart, like a force field. It's nice.

IMO, you should not reinforce this GOING ALONE stuff. That's a problem. I would recommend that you tell him that you would love for him to go with you and then stay home if he doesn't want to go. Most if not all of your RECREATIONAL TIME should be spent together, IMO..especially during this vulnerable point in your RECOVERY...there's a large part of him that wants this to fail and wants you to enable this failure, REMEMBER?

Doing stuff TOGETHER needs to become a HABIT..rather than giving into the PRACTICE of going alone...

My H and I NEVER used to SHOP together for years and years..you see where that led us...

Now that's one of our MOST FAVORITE things to do TOGETHER...

He does things with me I like to do and I do things that HE likes to do...POJA...but I had to do the LEADING at first...he was not accustomed to being with me AT ALL...

SL,

I so Love reading posts from the Table dancing, high heel wearing, fun loving, let go of the resentment, Lighting Bolt Goddess you are these days!

Sounds like that Goddess is doing well for herself and for PWC, too!

Fabulous!

Ah, I hear you Mimi.

Now, about the shopping, we would have to take our DS, and that is VERY stressful, for the both of us. I'll ask him. Actually, as with the movies, I did leave it open, but I didn't express a desire to not do it without him. I'll be sure to let him know that.

Thanks for the refresher. Gaining perspective as I type. Independent behavior has been a major LB in our R, from both sides.

I could make it more palatable by throwing in the notion of doing something fun, as a family, after the shopping, so that we all come out smiling. Hmmm, brainstorming; can you smell the smoke?

Mini Golf? Arcade? Chunky cheese?

Bookstore? coffee and donuts? ice cream? BOardgame? Twister?

I DID smell the smoke ALL the way down HERE!!!

Let him know by NOT GOING WITHOUT HIM..ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS...cause he's going to model your actions and make plans to go out without you..NOT GOOD AT ALL in EARLY RECOVERY, IMO...

WE..just don't do it..

You are not a NORMAL, GARDEN-VARIETY MARRIED COUPLE...that would be DENIAL to see yourselves that way, IMO...

It's like a LUNG CANCER PATIENT after successful chemotherapy now taking a drag off of a cigarette..La de dah.."I'm cured now"...

I sent a reply, stating that I would love it if we could shop together, do a bit of what I need, look at what he's interested in, then go do something fun as a family.

I'll see what he says. Hopefully, he'll want to go. If he really prefers not to, I do need to get this shopping done now; the party that I want the dress for is the 14th, and since we will be decorating the tree and house one weekend, I will need to do this sooner.

I really am looking forward to shopping. I love trying on new shoes. I also look forward to seeing the more svelte body in a new dress. It's been so nice feeling good about my physique again. I'm excited to dress it up!

Try not to let him off the hook from going but don't beg him..it's a balancing act, I know....

Gives you a chance to practice POJA...

"Maybe you and (son) can do XYZ while I ABC"..I do so want YOU to be with ME tomorrow"

Or do you want him to be with you??

Oh, I do, yessiree.

It's personal recovery, NOT at the expense of Marital recovery. I still want my Husband.

In some instances, just for the ease of doing things, I like to shop alone (grocery, some clothing for DS, etc.), but for the most part, I like it to be with PWC. The trick now is to express that desire to him. I haven't really done that before, because we both took for granted that we each wanted to do what the other wanted. Not always true, which is where POJA comes in.

A


B


And B can not happen unless A does!

I am so proud of you and what you have done these past couple weeks.

Wow! Thank you Chrisner!!

Reading about your DD soon to be 20, and her struggles reminds me of myself, in many ways. I feel like she could be so much happier, if only....

If only she could have a firm boundary with her mother over all of this; be completely honest, in a non-venomous way, and then let her mother alone to figure it out.

Truth is, as long as WZ is with Gollum, DD soon to be 20 will always trigger, will always FEEL and see the destruction of her family. It's up to her to remove the triggers. She can still have a R with her mother, but there will be ground rules involving the safety of DD soon to be 20.

I really do feel for her. It just breaks my heart.

On the rare occasion we even mention her Mom, this is what I tell her. But I can really see how deep her anger is with her mother.

There is a 20 year old guy helping out as an assistant for her JV coaching gig. His mom had an affair and left to marry the OM when he was in the 5th grade. He has yet to re-establish a relationship with her. DD told him about WayZ's insistence that the divorce and the affair had nothing to do with each other. He laughed and said his mom said the exact same thing and still maintains that.

Sorry about the TJ.

I am glad you sound so much better.

Silent:

Your doing great!

LG

LG, thanks for popping in. I think the 2x4's finally rattled whatever was running loose in my noggin', put it in it's place.

I expect there will be more, but I'm feeling strangely fine.

In some instances, just for the ease of doing things, I like to shop alone (grocery, some clothing for DS, etc.), but for the most part, I like it to be with PWC. The trick now is to express that desire to him. I haven't really done that before, because we both took for granted that we each wanted to do what the other wanted. Not always true, which is where POJA comes in.

SL for us it just became habit. I don't even think we 'thought' about doing what the other did. We were married, supposedly happily, worked, did somethings together but not much, we didn't know better. One of us usually got 'stuck' doing the stuff the other really didn't want to alot of times just because of gender (me grocery shopping, him yard work). We took so much for granted. Honestly I don't even know that we existed in each others mind except when we wanted somthing from the other. SAD.

So let it be known YOU would like to spend time with him. Of course he still has his choice to do that or not. Hopefully he'll see the value of choosing your desire.

SL you're doing great keep up the good personal & M recovery.

mvg, except for grocery shopping, we did nearly ALL of our shopping together (also, except for some Christmas shopping or birthday stuff). We spent lots of time in the same space. Eventually, we spent time in the same space, just not REALLY together.

Saturday shopping was a bust; we had lunch together, and then went about shopping separately (he and DS, me and DRESSES). I ended up empty handed, and we really didn't spend any shopping time together. DS was getting really ragged and tired, and PWC was DONE. I ended up going out alone on Sunday for a couple of hours and finally did find a dress. Still need shoes.

Anyway, after our DS went to bed Saturday evening, PWC and I ended up talking for a few hours (from 10PM-~1AM), mostly about work, some anecdotal stuff. It was nice. He seemed really relaxed, and was talking up a storm. By 1AM, I had to tell him I was just dead tired and wanted to go to bed. He ended up walking to my brothers home (about 100ft) and hanging out with him. I went to bed. I was exhausted. I had a dream that we were cuddling, laughing. Felt a little gyped when I awoke alone at 4AM (he was asleep on the couch).

Sunday came and went without much ado. It's odd. When we have evenings like that (Saturday), I always feel a let down the next day, when there isn't OBVIOUS closeness between the two of us.

Little by little, I'm changing and feeling stronger, better, more hopeful.

My FIL called last night, out of the clear blue sky, and said that he'd like to take DS next Saturday afternoon and keep him overnight. Yet another chance to spend some time alone, doing something fun with PWC.

WONDERFUL NEWS!!!



But this CLOSENESS..is WONDERFUL!!

GREAT, GREAT NEWS!!!

Slowly..but surely...

It's like the tortoise and the hare. I need to BE the tortoise, not just ACT like it.

It really was wonderful to just blather on about our life. It FELT very good, intimate, close, like we KNEW eachother and didn't have much explaining to do. I caught myself peering at him thru my old lenses, like nothing happened to RUIN our connection, and I SAW my husband.

Silent:

LG>>>>> Standing and applauding!

(((S/L)))

LG

PS: Next time, tell your husband..."I'm more exciting than BIL...."

^ 5 SL you going to ask your PWC if he'd like to do something together?

Ok and a duh moment here...what is PWC?

Together and so alone. I feel for you SL. And I know exactly what you mean by the letdown. Definately rollercoasterish! After my H's and my talk the other night I felt so good. I was so happy. Seems he was sincere at the time....not so sure right now. Very confusing for us isn't it?

Hopefully you two will have a great coming Saturday!

Hey y'all! Thanks for the kudos; it helps me to know that I'm moving in the right direction.

mvg,

I'm going to ask him what he would like to do.

PWC stand for Poopsie Waffle Chunks; it's a name that I got from a thread here (have no idea where it got to). I can't even remember how to decode his name anymore. I think it was each letter of the alphabet was assigned a word. You used the first letter of his first, middle and last name to get the MB name for your spouse or yourself. It was really cute, but long gone. I'll see if I can dig it up somehow.

IMO, the things that my husband says, he means, but I don't know if he has the tools to implement them yet, or is willing to do it yet. Again, I try not to hinge my every mood on what PWC isn't doing for me. He does a lot, especially around the house; more than before this whole mess.

PWC talks about not FEELING it (love, want, whatever the subject at hand regarding me is), and if he doens't feel it, he can't DO it (make effort to be with me, fulfill certain needs--SF, RC). He hasn't said it outright, but I believe he doesn't believe in faking it til you make it. He believes either you feel it or you don't (his words). Now, one can only concur with those thought processes that this is DOOMED (his viewpoint IMO).

I don't see it that way. I see that he comes a bit closer with each permanent change, with each outward and consistent appearance of happiness, he gravitates closer. HE grows more comfortable.

I still feel sad about how far we've come in the past 7 months, but I'm not deterred by it. It's that old 'if only' thing. If only PWC would go through the motions of fulfilling my highest EN's; if only he would open up and let me know what he feels his top EN's are right now. If only, if only, if only....

Well, it is what it is (as my boss would say), so I'm dealing with what IS today, not what was or some intangible future. I believe that PWC does love me. Do I want for more? Of course. Am I being greedy with what I want from my M? Hardly. If I could have one wish granted, it would be that PWC would put his arms around me, all on his own, not because I need it, but because HE needs it. Boy, that would be a doozy! Lot's of work to do, we have (channeling Yoda).

SIL,

This may be where you got PWCs nick name. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

We all need a little stress-reliever! This only
takes a minute.

Please don't be a bore and ruin it. Send it on
to everyone you know including the person that sent it to you.

Sometimes when you have a stressful day or week,
you need some silliness to break up the day. If we are honest, we have a
lot more stressful days than not.

Here is your dose of humor...

A. Follow the instructions to find your new
name.

B. Once you have your new name, put it in the
subject box and >forward it to friends and family and co-workers.

Don't forget to forward it back to the person
who sent it to you, so they know you participated.


And don't go all adult - a senior manager is now
known far and wide as Dorky Gizzardsniffer!

The following is excerpted from a children's
book, Captain Underpants And the Perilous Plot of Professor Poopypants,
by Dave Pilkey, in which the evil Professor forces everyone to assume
new names...



So:-

1. Use the third letter of your first name to
determine your New first name:

a = snickle
b = doombah
c = goober
d = cheesey
e = crusty
f = greasy
g = dumbo
h = farcus
i = dorky
j = doofus
k = funky
l = boobie
m = sleezy
n = sloopy
o = fluffy
p = stinky
q = slimy
r = dorfus
s = snooty
t = tootsie
u = dipsy
v = sneezy
w = liver
x = skippy
y = dink y
z = zippy

2. Use the second letter of your last name to
determine the first half of your new last name:

a = dippin
b = feather
c = batty
d = burger
e = chicken
f = barffy
g = lizard
h = waffle
i = farkle
j = monkey
k = flippin
l = fricken
m = bubble
n = rhino
o = potty
p = hamster
q = buckle
r = gizzard
s = lickin
t = snickle
u = chuckle
v = pickle
w = hubble
x = dingle
y = gorilla
z = girdle



3. Use the third letter of your last name to
determine the second half of your new last name:

a = butt
b = boob
c = face
d = nose
e = hump
f = breath
g = pants
h = shorts
i = lips
j = honker
k = head
l = tush
m = chunks
n = dunkin
o = brains
p = biscuits
q = toes
r = doodle
s = fanny
t = sniffer
u = sprinkles
v = frack
w = squirt
x = humperdinck
y = hiney
z = juice

Thus, for example, George W. Bush's new name is:
Fluffy Chucklefanny.

SL, you must have been reading my mind. Geezzzzz I just posted on my thread then came here...just what I needed to hear. Not easy to accept but wise words. Downer day for me and you put a positive spin on a bad world. (((thanks)))

YOOOOOOUR WELCOME!

I'm feeling positive these days. It's a really tough time, lordy do I know, but it's also a time of great POTENTIAL. I do still feel sad, and I recognize when the anger is coming to make it's rounds, but I'm learning to put it in it's proper perspective. I can't BLAME PWC all of the time, for everything. When something he does bothers me, I'll tell him, without delay, without malice. A new way of dealing has dawned on me, and I'm using it to my advantage. I am an opportunist.

I FINALLY had my neurosurgery consult regarding my neck issues. I have a myelogram (contrast dye in spine with CT scan) scheduled for next Tuesday, to rule out some sort of vascular problem that the doc suspects due to some results on the MRI. He did mention surgery, due to the 'bruising' he believes he sees on the spinal cord. He was also concerned about injury that could lead to paralysis.

It's really interesting stuff, looking at the MRI's, talking to the docs about the condition, learning about what's going on inside me. I actually feel better KNOWING what is happening.

I found the dress for my Christmas party, now am on the hunt for the right shoe. The dress is an A-line, pewter color, with beading at the neckline (trapeze style dress), so I'm thinking of an ORANGE shoe, since the pewter is considered a neutral. I think it'll look KEWL.

mvg, honey bunches, hang in there. It's getting better every day; it's just so hard to tell when you don't step back. No matter what happens, you'll figure it out, in time.

Hi SL. You sound good and seem to have made some huge strides these past three weeks. I hope all goes well in your tests.

So it looks like my new IRL name would be Funky Chickentush.

It may take me a while to get my arms around that.

DD19.969 would be Crusty Chickentush. I probably should not share that with her.

Hi SL- no advice, seems you're doing good takin' it slow, slow, slow.

More later from Boobie Gizzardhump - LOL

I think DD would agree that ya'll should probably trade names Sir Connery.

Sorry I missed out on the bud light fun, but I was having fun with bud light and fire IRL. I almost burned down Pineville, La this weekend. Thank God I had to pee. This moving on stuff is very time consuming. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Goober BubbleLips signing in, too.

Hi, to all!

Fox

Dorfus Gizzardbrains! Not very girly, I have to say.

Thanks SC, for posting that. The list I had was very similar to that one. I guess it's going around.

I have seen other ones too that are very similar. I find them pretty funny. Me and my kids always talk backwards which is pretty funny too.

Sincerely Dorfus Chickendunkin LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ok, now I'm beginning to feel the stress from today's happenings. Feeling very MORTAL today, very human, afraid. So, I have decided that I will not be cooking or cleaning this evening. I am going home, and taking it easy. I am going to watch a movie, play with my kid, laugh, relax.

It just kind of suddenly hit me, after lunch. So, Dorfus Gizzardbrains is going to take it easy. I'm going to take good care of me tonight.

Funny, I got that email earlier today and mine's:

Sloppy Picklebutt!!!!

BLAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!

Silent:

What's up with this:

"Ok, now I'm beginning to feel the stress from today's happenings."

?????

Yes, pamper yourself.

No need to over extend.

It would be great when PWC decides to scrub your back some.

You never know. Let him talk tonight.

LG

Oh, LG, I was just referring to my consult with the doc, and how it drives reality home each time I see the neurologist, or have more testing. I'm flawed, fractured, and can't do it all. Bummer.

No matter what, I'm blessed with such a wonderful kid, I know I'll get a smile and laugh or two this evening, not to mention unsolicited hugs and kisses. He is a very affectionate boy. I will HUG myself by caring for myself.

I'm late with this but came up with Tootsie Chickendunkin. Still, I'll see you at the reunion.

SL, take care of yourself. Is the hot tub shut down for the year? Is it chilly enough outside to make a soak awesome?

The topside controller on the hot tub is having issues such that I cannot set the temp above 96 degrees F. It's not even as hot as my bath water. It's also not very enjoyable. I'm looking for a replacment, but they do cost money, which is in low supply these days. It's either clean the dogs nasty teeth and get his immunizations or get the topside controller. With the smell of my dogs breath, it's taking precendence right now.

It's pretty cold right now (low 30s); mostly blustery. Very gusty winds, ~50mph here and there. Feels like winter! I always enjoy soaking when it's downright freezing outside. Next month will have to be when I invest in the new controller.

You have my complete empathy. My hot tub is broken too. I hate being cold.

I'm starting to grow gills from living in the bathtub.

My bathtub is so dang small. If I want my torso to be under water, then my legs stick out. If I want my tootsies to be under, my torso is out. I can almost immerse my entire body if I sit with my legs crossed and lay down.

We're going to get a bit of snow today, only 1-3", not much, just enough to muffle all of the noise (I love that) and make everything look pristine (until they get on the streets with the salt trucks and plow the snow, turning it black along the side of the road). It's a pity the hot tub is not working properly, because that is an opportune time to take a soak. POOP! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It doesn't snow much in this area, so it will be nice to see it. I only like winter (it's actually still fall) when it snows.

LOL...I'm SOOOO SORRY to hear about your tub...I was relaxing in mine last night and actually fell asleep! First time that has happened, but a friend of mine talked me into getting a bath pillow! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SNOW, how exciting!! You know considering US SOUTH LOUISIANA PEOPLE don't get to see that but once ever few years...maybe five...and it hardly sticks, if at all! i think in my life I've seen great snow 3 times...

I'm actually hoping that it snows when I'm at the Bowl game! That would be so awesome!!

Thanks to WH hot tub was up and running this past Sunday night. DS and I went in the other night.
Yesterday lost lots of water... WH came over after work and we have a leak...he fixed it for the time being. Thank-you plumbing gunk and good old duck tape.

Still

Rin, when I lived in Germany, during my then stepfather's tour there, it snowed every winter. It never really got terribly cold, but it would get into the 30's and stay there most of the winter, so snow was prevalent.

I loved it. It was in the early 80's, when MOON BOOTS were all the rage. I had a pair that looked like Chewbaka's legs, except WHITE fake fur. I loved those things. What a great time that was. We had a white Christmas for three of four years.

Still,

I miss my hot tub. My next big purchase, after the dogs are all vaccinated and up to date on dental stuff, is the topside controller. My back would thank me.

I would be SOOO lucky!!! (SNOW!!) I have to admit I have never owned a pair of those!! LOL...

Hope you are having a great day!!

OMG are we STILL on the subject of shoes.......

Silent:

I SO enjoyed skiing at the German alps when I was in the AF. That would have been 85. Only skied once since then.

About the topside controller? Girlfriend, the dogs teeth can WAIT. Those greyhounds can't leave the house anyway!

Get thier shots, YES! but the teeth? Hot TUB First.

Will be in there with Flamingo Tonight. 102 HOT Degrees. She is having back issues right now too, it good to go back in....

It so cool when the snow is falling and your in the hot tub. Your right, doesn't happen often round here, but its great for about 15 minutes, then the snow on your head starts to melt and it gets too cold!

The stars were JUST awesome last night, the moon rose late and sky was so clear.

Chin up.

LG

ETA: We also have a TWO person bathtub. WIDE, but short. You CAN sink in, but your knees stick out!

I know, sick isn't it. Seems it's a disease I've had since childhood, judging from my love of my moon boots.

I don't really shop for shoes that much, but I like to browse them online. My best friend and I call it looking at SHORN (shoe porn). It's nuts, but I love shoes. I adore them from afar mostly. It's only when I go to some big event that I spend the dough on an expensive pair.

SHORN - - - I think I just LMAO-APMP on that one!!

I'm with LG, get the shots and then get that hot tub, baby!!

Darn,,, I miss my Big Big Bath tub!!! Only thing I REALLY miss from the Drac house.

It is #1 on my 'major' Bug's house list of changes. My current tub,,, well it's so small I won't even comment about what all sticks out! LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Well, the teeth have gotten to a rotten state; some extractions may be needed. I never really knew greyhounds had such nasty teeth! It's a necessity at this point.

And about you, Bugsy, you'd better get some depends for that incontinence problem. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I never had a big bath tub, but having the hot tub, and it being out of commission right now (it's not so bad, but it's perpetually stuck at 96 degrees; not really all that warm, considering body temp is ~99), I miss it.

Oh, and Bugsy, go right ahead, ELABORATE on what sticks out. I betcha I already know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

SL.

99 degrees! YIKES! That's almost COLD, isnt' it?

I LOVE that you have greyhounds,,, a good friend of mine rescued 2 and they are too sweet. I know you'd never let them go without what they need, if the teeth have to come out, then they have to come out. My sister's Yorkie ended up with Summer Teeth --- Sum were in, Sum were out! LOL!

Well, as to what is sticking out,,, I haven't posted my pic yet so it COULD be my stomach! Or Thunder Thighs!

Well, I said TORSO for a reason; nice and vague.

Summer teeth! LOL! I'm taking that one; may need it at the end of the day tomorrow. Thanks!

Lucas, my greyhound, is very sweet, he's a lover. He also tends to WHINE for his needs. Whine wimper whine, I need food; whine wimper whine, I need go out, whine wiper whine, toooouch me. It can be annoying sometimes. He sleeps most of the time. He's got the worst gas of any animal, I think including elephants, that I've ever had the displeasure of smelling. He's a counter surfer, and has downed many a loaf of bread! He's beautiful though. Watching him run is a thing of sheer beauty. He'll run right by you, thundering past, so you can feel the ground shake, but it's like he's floating.

Now, I also have a terrier (rat russell --part jack part rat terrier). She's a swimmer and fetcher, and loves the frisbee. She's loads of fun in the summertime.

Just thought I would post what I wrote on mvg's thread, as it has more to do with my own recovery than general advice.

SL your post is inspiring, and I thank you for sharing it with me.

Thank you for posting this to your thread or I would have missed witnessing your WONDERFUL GROWTH!!!

((((SL))))

I'm also APPLAUDING you again!!!

It sounds like you are doing very well SL. You should have attacked that shirt a long time ago.

Thanks y'all. I am doing well these days.

I had a Myelogram done on Tuesday that has given me one HORRENDOUS headache, but am doing well otherwise.

My work Christmas party is tomorrow. It's going to be AWESOME. I know I'm going to look very nice, and the party is going to be swank! It's at an upscale italian ristorante in Little Italy; we rent the top floor and open bar every year. Valet parking, no worries. It's really fun!

We got our Christmas tree this past Sunday and have yet to decorate it. I've been down with this headache for a couple of days, and don't feel loads better today, so we may need to wait until this Sunday. I plan on having a nice dinner and some champagne; Christmas music playing and such. I always liked decorating the tree, but I want it to be a fun experience, not one done under pressure or pain.

The shirt, may it rest in peace, was a long time comin, but it never should have happened that way. It should have been retired long ago, but I didn't have the guts to talk about it.

Now, I don't have to worry, 'cause I don't let anything fester. A great lesson learned.

Life is good. I'm workin on GRRRRREAT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

as you can tell, i'm relatively new here and i feel almost like i'm butting in to this thread... but SL i just wanted you to know that i read all 20 pages of this thread after reading your cut and paste job up there... a wonderful summary on your part

i sincerely hope your husband notices the peuter A frame dress and organge shoe combo and that you have a wonderful night at the party

wish i would have found yall years ago

- Snickle Dippenhead.

I do believe he will notice, charliethree (Snickle Dippenhead).

I'll have to take a look at your thread. I'm sorry to see that it has escalated to D for you. It always breaks my heart to see a family breaking up. I can't imagine true recovery without MB, without this forum, and my good friends here. It's an uphill battle all the way!

Good to hear that things are going so well...sorry about that major headache...

I KNOW that YOU WILL have a blast at the party!!!!

have a great day!

SL:
So glad things are going so well with you !!

Like what you did before, I let anger fester also and still don't know how to let my H know on the spot in a calm way. I bet that's one of the reason that I explode like a clock every couple of weeks or so lately. It was better before the winter. Maybe the weather plays a role too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I so want to have a Christmas party too. We won't have one this year since the company ( and the telecom industry overall I think) is struggling financially. Too bad.

I am so happy for you though. I'm sure your H is going to notice. Your spirit is showing through screen.

I still remember I was putting much effort in getting my spirit up and dress nicely for my H at the very beginning of our recovery. He noticed and he started to stare at me with that kind of eyes again, you know...But let my anger took over after I felt more secure and things had been up and down wildly...I know I should be the one holding steady and I am going to do it for myself. Lets see what happens...

Have a great time at the party SL. And thanks for all these inspirational posts...

I read about your H touched you twice in another thread. I know how much that means belive me. My H hasn't really touched me in a nonsexual way a lot either. He never did that before A either, but that's no excuse. I'm going to lead by example and be a better me and let my needs heard and see how he responds.

LovingAlong

SL I hope you have a great time at your party! You WILL be the 'hottie' there in your new dress & shoes!!!!

So, I found out today that I will be having surgery for the neck problem in early January. I'm a bit shaken, but not stirred; just the initial shock of having to think of everything involved with getting ready.

I have some time to look up the surgical procedure and become familiarized with everything, which is good, but not so much time that I can obsess.

My DS is feeling pretty ill, so I may be going to my Christmas party STAG. I'm not really thrilled about that, because it will be the second year in a row that my husband was not with me (he was with Aimless at this time last year), but such is the situation. I would rather my son was taken care of.

So, although I'm not looking forward to surgery and pain, I'm looking forward to feeling better and getting stronger again.

I'm a bit scared, which is probably not all that abnormal. It would be nice if my M were in better shape at this point, but it is what it is.

SL I'm sure once you get to look up the info on your surgery you'll feel a bit better. I think being scared is VERY normal. Hopefully your M will be in even better shape by the time your up for surgery. (have a great time at the party,even if you do have to go alone).

AND maybe the surgery is all part of your MARRIAGE JOURNEY somehow, offering practice on reaching out to your H for help and him being able to NURTURE you...an IMPORTANT STEP in a marriage...

Mimi, I thought about that. I will definitely need to lean on him at this time. I am going to talk to him about his fears, too. It's important that we are both ready, and that I hear him.

At this point, this is not optional, it's necessary, but that doesn't mean we don't have any other choices. WE could get more help, during the recovery period, so that he is not overwhelmed.

This is a very big thing, right now. Could get really interesting.

Even if I have to go to the party alone, I promise you guys that I will have fun. I am holding out hope that my DS will feel better this evening, and me AND PWC will get a chance to cut loose. Cross your fingers, folks!

It's HIS JOB as YOUR HUSBAND to take care of YOU and HIS FAMILY. If you are in this as his wife, it is OK for you to speak to this need of yours. DON'T HOLD BACK. I expect that he wants you TO ASK FOR HIS HELP and for you to HAVE CONFIDENCE that he can step up to the plate. Why couldn't he? Are you seeing him as incapable of being the MAN OF THE FAMILY? "IN SICKNESS AND IN HEALTH"....

SL:

I'm sorry to hear about your surgery. As mimi said, it could really be a time for him to do the nurturing thing and gain some fresh feelings and perspectives about what you mean to each other.

I had to have one of my wisedom tooth pulled out surgically couple of months after Dday while H was still in deep withdrawal from the OW. He came with me and provided a lot of comfort to me during that time. And I think that experience gave him some fresh thoughts and feelings about who he really cared about. We felt much closer to each other after that experience.

I'm praying that your DS gets better this afternoon so you two can go to the party together.
But even if you have to go yourself, try to enjoy yourself and have fun, ok?

LovingAlong

I don't see it any other way, as long as we are married, I am his wife.

This is why I want to have a talk with him about all of this, to explain the procedure, what post-op care and recovery looks like. This will inform him of the logistics, and give me a chance to ask for his help.

I KNOW he can be the man of this family; he has shown me that over the past seven months, more in the last month than ever. He IS the man to step up. He will, I know it. I just want him to be able to express his fears at a time that is SAFE, prior to the surgery.

I have confidence that he will take good care of his family.

I'm sorry that I put it that way, SL.

I didn't mean it in a negative sense.

I ADMIRE you and think that you are doing GREAT!

I'm so sorry to hear about your surgery but I have FAITH that in the long run it will be to the GOOD for YOU and for YOUR MARRIAGE.

(((((SL)))))

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It's okay, Mimi, I understand.

To be honest, with all my anger and resentment, I HAD been treating PWC as a second class citizen at home, and you caught that early on, and pressed me for the months to come. I get it NOW. I also treated the situation like I could just cut out at any moment, when I got angry enough. That was not the way to approach recovery. I get it NOW.

You have been there, reading me this whole time, so it stands to reason that in a time of GREAT PRESSURE, you might give me a nudge to check my state of mind.

Don't be sorry, no need.

Hey Gorgeous!

Just wanted to pop in and let you know that I am thinking of you.

Surgery is scary - but look at all the different possible benefits. Free of physical pain - increased mobility - reduction of the fear of how much worse it could get in the future - opportunity for PWC to step up in your time of need - the opportunity for you to see it and recognize it when he does. Make your own list, it may help!

Yup, you have reason to be concerned. I don't want to down play that. But be sure to temper the fear with anticipation of improvement.

Maybe make a list of your fears - do what you can do to alleviate each item. Then make a list of the good things you can look forward too - and focus on those and how to make them become a reality.

Love ya, Miss Lucidity! Have a great time at the party and I hope DS feels better soon!

Fox

Had a not so great evening. I was thinking about the surgery. I was thinking about my H. I was thinking about the holidays, and putting it all together in a knot, looking for the positives.

AT first, I was grateful for all that I have, then the darkness descended. I can't really pinpoint ONE thing that is bothering me. I became weepy. It was odd to feel this way, considering all that I have accomplished in the last month. It was FOREIGN to me.

I didn't feel like doing anything, and I could feel ANGER when thinking or looking on PWC. Then I would feel sadness, looking at how far we HAVE NOT come. I feel a sense of loss right now, and I can't pinpoint it. I'm disappointed, not in any one thing or person (maybe myself?).

I am still struggling with the lack of touch, affection, and SF. There is absolutely NONE coming from him. I hate focusing on this, so it's something I work on daily. I give what I can, but I'm stuck. I don't know what else to do . This just doesn't seem anywhere even remotely close to normal. Maybe I'm just supposed to keep on keepin on.

Well, it's obvious that this is not my problem, but something going on with PWC. He doesn't talk about it, won't address his issues, especially with me. I'm ALL about addressing MY issues now. I don't see the point in keeping it all in. Meh, that's just me, though.

I have spoken with PWC on the subject of affections, and don't feel that continually bringing this up is helpful. I trust that he's heard me; I'm just concerened; I don't feel very close to him, and worry for our future together.

Why the lack of trust on his part; not opening up to me? Could be the ANGER that he has witnessed keeps him at bay. I'm trying to figure it out, and I don't know what to do. I continue to suggest counseling (not nagging, just now and then--maybe 4-5 times since he's been home). It's really something that PWC has to deal with. This is not my struggle, it just affects me.

Today is a new day, hopefully I can take these lemons and make me some lemonade.

This is me venting.

(((((SL))))

You have alot going on right now with the holidays and everything else...

I got the sugar if you need it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ANd thank you very much for yesterday...it's still hard to be honest with myself at times!

I think your response is NORMAL and EXPECTED. You are not getting your LOVE BANK filled and it can be getting close to empty. What a woman typically needs most is to FEEL LOVED which includes AFFECTION and you are not getting ANY of that.

I usually try to reserve most of my AMATEUR communications to situations that I can relate to...I can't relate to your H's physical avoidance of you..You know my H and the SF..talked about a lot around here in the recent past.

I'll throw out though that it seems to me that you need to talk to him about this directly. "What are you doing about SF?"; "What do you expect me to do?". There's nothing WRONG with the EXPECTATION for him to be PHYSICAL with you...IMO...just starting with SIMPLE TOUCHING....

But maybe you should speak to Jennifer about this...

I agree with you. I don't think this is NORMAL...or EXPECTED for you to continue like this without some ACTION...

THE GOOD NEWS is that YOU can take care of yourself around this issue..you have the SKILLS and COURAGE..COURAGE..to speak out..RIGHT?

Silent:

One caution....

IF PWC is withholding Affection right NOW, than your surgery and your needs during that time, and then recuperation, relaxation, etc., may result in alot of hurt feelings and resentment on your part.

I would delay the surgery for a little while longer. Month or two.

You can NOT delay it until PWC fully turns around. Your pain is greater than that.

PWC MAY respond to your needs NOW and move up that caring for you ladder.

I beleive that DS will be well tended by PWC. The house too. But you might not feel as coddled as you would like.

You don't now, and if you are in the bed recuperating, than he certainly needs to STEP UP alot.

Just a slight caution.

If the roles were reversed, your inner Florence Nightngale would come out, and PWC would be covered in the care. But they are not.

Please be careful with this...

Otherwise, what are you planning for the rest of the week? Is PWC going to the Goddess Ball with you?

What have you planned, if anything, to spend alone time with PWC?

LG

LG:

Could you speak directly about the SF issue?

What do you think is going on with PWC?

Hi SL. I wish I had some great words of wisdom to impart but as usual that well is dry. The best I can offer is my support and thoughts. Take care of yourself.

{{{{SL}}}}

Mimi, I have been feeling a bit stressed over all of the logistics of preparing for this surgery. Lots of calls to make to the hospital, and to the docs and visits to take care of. I know that the stress of that is rolling over into everything else.

As for the lack of affection/SF, this has been 6 months now, and I have actually SAID just about all I can about it. I guess I could try to find another way to express the same thing.

LG, I won't be putting off the surgery. It has already been 4 months since the onset of the pain; I don't want to wait any longer. As far as the docs are concerned, they want it done sooner than later, for many reasons, one being that further damage to my spinal column could be permanent and could result in paralysis. THAT got my attention. I'm not comfortable putting this off.

So, I guess ye ole love bank is running low. Honestly, I don't think there is much more to say about it to PWC. HE knows what I need; I've been honest with him. I've also tried kissin and huggin him. It's just not happenin. This may just be a lost cause. I really don't know. I do know that I'm beginning to not care, which is NOT GOOD.

Even when I tell him things like this, he has not much to say. I don't understand what the point of him sleeping in the same bed as me, if he doesn't want me. I'm really just growing tired of trying FOR us anymore.

This could be temporary, and I could rebound again, feel better, stronger, but, honestly, how many times do I need to be given the same message to get it?

I don't want to down play the things that PWC does FOR me and around the house. That wouldn't be nice or fair. I do want to say that much of this I have and could do on my own. Is that fair? Nope, but life isn't. I want a mate, not a roommate. It's just not enough for me, especially considering the damage in our M, that is not healed, between the TWO of us, not just me. Either I will grow tired and D, or he will have another A, and/or D me.

I can't imagine that his love bank is FULL, considering how much he talked about SF and recreational time before the A's.

I've been working on the RC, but it's either too late, or not enough.

I think it's time to have one more chat about all of this, and either figure out a path to a cure, or make some hard decisions.

I'm willing to go the two years to get to a better place, it just seems feudal with an unwilling partner. Like a waste of time, MY TIME.

(((SL))) I'm sorry you're feeling so frustrated. I hope you didn't catch that from me...you're saying the same things I was last week (and could this week) because nothing has changed.

I know a very wise person <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> last week kept after me to focus on ME and WHAT I could do and to live in the NOW. I'm ducking now so you don't wack me on the head! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't have any words to offer other than I feel your frustration and pray that you H will 'GET IT' sooner than later. (((SL thoughts & prayers coming your way)))

mvg,
Thanks lady. No need to duck, I hear you.

What frightens me is I'm less frustrated than, gosh, how do I say this, DONE with trying. I think the surgery is part of it. I have total faith in PWC taking care of the house and DS, keeping him occupied so that I don't have to be up and down with him. I even have faith that he will act in a compassionate manner after the surgery. I don't have faith that he will put much effort into caring for me on a more personal.

Let's be for real here, the man doesn't touch me. How much love can he show me. I'm not even talking about SEX here, folks, just human touch. There's something wrong with that, isn't there?

And the answer to the question of whether he's in contact that is asked when I state this stuff is, as far as I know. I've asked him point blank and he's said NO CONTACT. THis doesn't mean, however, that he is not turning his attention to yet another woman. I've asked that, too, and he's said NO!

It just doesn't make much sense to me.

I remember that, SL, when I thought we were working on recovery way back when. No touching, and how frustrating it is.

It's something about him. Something that he needs to work through. I wish he would do it faster, or see someone to help him with it, or at least recognize what it's doing to you.

(((SL)))

hey guy,

yeah, it seems like something broken inside him. Not anything that I can fix. I could be sugar coated niceness, bending over backwards, and I still don't believe he would give this much of himself. He turns to NO ONE. And yes, unfortunately, his inaction does affect our M, me.

Maybe we were brought back together so that I could get to a place of doneness, let him go. I just don't see the point in that. I don't necessarily believe in everything happening for a reason, but I do believe in making the best of things when you come across a challenge; learning, applying the new stuff and being better. I believe in everything happening to help us learn, dig deeper.

AGREED. I'm loving your sense of PERSONAL POWER now.

6 months is long enough I think..if there has been no contact.

Tell him...that you're not asking for "THUG LOVIN" ( I just listened to that during my workout- <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />). You're asking for a SIMPLE TOUCH....I even TOUCH my acquaintances...

You can say this without lovebusting...

Don't make it about HIM and HIS ISSUES..who knows what those are...

Now it's time to SPEAK YOUR OWN TRUTH...

This is about YOU and what YOU NEED at this point...

Oh, SL. I feel for ya, I really do.

I whole heartedly agree that something needs to be done in regards to PWC and his lack of touching you.

However......is right NOW the best time? So much is on your plate. So much concern regarding the surgery. Can you REALLY have a conversation with PWC under these conditions and not have the conversation affected by these other concerns?

Are you trying to help open the door to his exit now because of the stress of the surgery? Consider that just maybe you have so much on your mind that you cannot deal with his lack of movement?

I don't think I said that very well, I hope you can read into what I mean a little bit.

Only take on what you can right now. Don't overload yourself and then crumble under the load.

If you are ready and feel that you must "confront" him now, I'm behind you all the way. I have a feeling that anytime we talk to them about anything like this, they feel confronted, but that's just my opinion.

I'm here for you, SL. Offering you a back to lean against when you need it.

Fox

It will be hard for her, IMO, having had surgery myself not so very long ago- early recovery, to proceed without resolving the issue of not being touched by her H.

She has to prepare herself not to expect it 'cause she's gonna want and need it...

I'm encouraging you to be PROACTIVE..Steven Covey

Avoidance and denial of issues are not a good thing...as SL already knows...

Whoa! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> This hit waaaay close to home, Foxy lady! I was just thinking about my tendency to push him away. Now is not the time for that.

I think there may be some merit in what you say. How do I let myself slip backwards?

Having said that (to myself, in my head, while steadily typing it) I think it IS time to discuss some things, and the touch thing will come up, because I NEED IT.

Wow, it's amazing how you caught that.

Mimi, as always, you are speaking my language. I really do need to have a conversation about my needs, not about HIM and my needs (as I've done in the past), but about what I need, as fact, as part of who I am, not about what he's NOT DOING, but about what I need, now, today, tomorrow and always. Heck, I could use some Thug Lovin at this point, but I would LOVE some touches, just that comfort of a physical connection.

I'm feeling more clear, much better...

{{{SL}}} You sound terrific...I'm with Mimi on hearing that.

I have some suggestions...and I've been so self-absorbed, involved that I haven't read the last two pages on your thread. These may have been suggested already.

Trying to get from enemies back to allies, non-affectionate touch was suggested in a book I read. It's where you give each other a should and neck massage for only 15 minutes.

The one receiving the massage can talk...the one giving it doesn't.

God's design of our bodies, giving us flesh, is so we can be touched, connected, even wordlessly, I believe. When you place your hands on FWH, that connection goes two ways...you can feel affection from you touching him...because it ripples back up through your own arm (if you don't pile the DJs in the way like I did). Can feed you, also.

We had to learn to touch even when we didn't feel like it. We did repair touches...the backs of our hands, a palm to a cheek (not in anger, though), foot to foot. Tiny stuff when we don't want to...because that affirms we are doing what we believe, our choice to love, not reacting to our feelings.

I remembered (how conveniently I forget it...I think resentment is an awareness wipe in me) just a week ago after our MC appt...we'd gotten in our separate cars, wordlessly...and before I buckled in, I got back out...walked to his car door, which he opened...leaned down with both my hands on either side of his face, looked him right in the eye and kissed him.

Then I walked back to my car. He called out "thank you"...

Similarities...my DH feels taken over, engulfed, invaded at times...very old stuff...and can feel that way with touch when he feels responsible, criticized or burdened by me. His fear and panic at feeling overwhelmed is real...valid...and it's his own stuff. I have no doubt in his life he's experienced touch in this way, to an abusive degree...and I'm sure I have used affection as a weapon, a demand, a way to discount and trod over him.

I don't know if any of that connects to your FWH, SL...what I know is being the opposite...the one WANTING to be smothered...I had no clue how much pain he experiences when he feels controlled, taken over...or held responsible for something he cannot control.

Doesn't equalize or excuse...just widens our knowledge and experience.

About touching when we don't feel like it to help us retrain our brains to act directly from our beliefs and not react to our feelings...respect your choice to touch as a choice, too...share you know it is his choice whether he does or not, accepts your touch or not...and chooses to say, "Feels demanding...I feel inadequate...judged...consumed" or not.

In the beginning...the woo-time...was affection rampant? I ask because Hendrix says we project our own IMAGO stuff during that infatuation period onto our partner. Can seems as though they were all we wanted and after we married, bam, not so. Not because they changed...because we stopped projecting.

I'm thinking somewhere in the middle is reality...how 'bout you? How about a kiss good morning, good night and goodbye...as routine...a goal you both set together? You need HIS help in doing this...share your stuff as it happens, as you do here...not to get him to do/be/think/feel...to share what you're experiencing right now.

Doesn't mean he won't hear criticism, judgment, demands...and doesn't mean you are doing it. Share your experiences...no confrontation.

Acceptance, to me, is key to affection. Acknowledges presence, not just communicates emotion...we reach for and then feel from taking the action. Builds our own confidence, from our choices...becomes our experience.

All stuff you already know...I'm just going through it, also...old stuff is new again...ack...only not as long as you have been experiencing it. Big hugs, kudos and you're not alone.

LA

This is actually a very concise way to put it. I may use this one, Mimi. I think it's important that he understand I will have a strong need for human touch after the surgery. I would rather know that this is not forthcoming, than hope beyond hope that he comes thru. I will be setting him up to FAIL.

LA, beautifully put, as always.



I do STILL let the feelings get in the way of my beliefs. I want the beliefs to get in the way of the feelings. FLIP FLOP. I've been doing well with this lately, but this most recent development had me running scared, for the moment.

I come here, vent and get the best advice.

I recognize my need to run, by pushing PWC toward the door, to prove me RIGHT, that he will reject me, even before I've given him a chance to speak or show me otherwise (Fox nailed this one).

Then Mimi tells me that I'm not doing my part, being proactive, taking this discussion to PWC; the only one who can really help me resolve this.

LA comes up with an exercise or two, in how to bridge this gap. Something I haven't tried that could bring us together, instead of allowing that wedge to continue, in the pursuit of being right, or justified.

What a wonderful group of friends.

Time to talk, to action my beliefs further than I have.

SL,

You grace this board, you know that? You have helped me so much from reading your posts...and mvg...Mimi...fox...SD...Rinners...Acey...the list seems endless.

I wanted to add a thought I had while out to lunch (oxymoron, huh?)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Often with affection, physical touch, we are talking wordlessly...saying a lot...which is solely subjective. Makes sense when we act like enemies, that touch can hurt...like that rejection you expect (which I believe you know is my big thing to understand in me)...makes sense to stop touching to stop the hurt...when it's really an excess of touch, of wordlessness at work, really, isn't it?

Your balance of speaking in words and touch is key here...knowing what you're hearing in his lack of touch or your own touch...remembering what whispers to you from it...and speaking it aloud.

When you share your struggle, trying to flip and stop the flop...that's intimacy. That's emotional intimacy...doesn't mean he has to do/think/say anything...means he hears...so he's shares in that way. The more you share of what you're working on, your new desires (including beliefs, actions, expectations), the more intimate you will be...and yes, sometimes, that's wordless in touch, too...

Balance.

Not bad, wrong, good guy/bad guy...just seeking balance. Your strength and clarity...and acceptance of what you don't know yet, what he hasn't shared...and faith he will.

You've got goals, woman...and your posts reflect your pure intent. Thank you so much.

Makes sense our urge to be right, our false safe place, where we are significant (because we're right), we matter, we affect...is so strong. Consider it the urge to rightness...to balance...not justifications...acceptance of what really is, even if it's not about ourselves.

LA

In the process of not expecting - be certain that in this process you have not resigned yourself to not getting. KWIM?

The opposite of expecting something is expecting nothing. That expecting nothing leads to disappointment and resentment when you really WANT or NEED the something you didn't get.

I really don't think in close personal relationships that there is any such thing as absolutely no expectations. You expect something or you expect nothing. You are going to get one of them.



Completely agree. I, personally, don't think I would have dealt with it nearly as long as SL has.

The question is motive. Why NOW? Why not before, why not later - why NOW? Is it to focus on something other than surgery?

I ask that - because I'm notorius for it. I sometimes cause a ruckus over something somewhat trivial to avoid dealing with the major issues. (bet ya didn't know that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

I'm not saying you're wrong, SL, just examine your motives. Can you separate the fear of your issues with PWC and the fear of surgery, etc?

I'm all for dealing with PWC, these issues MUST be addressed. But......Do you have the energy and presence of mind to deal with it BEST right now?

You might be in the perfect place, only you can know - just throwing the question out there for ya.

Fox

LovingAnyway,

Your posts always inspire such deep thought, reflection, and consideration. I am so grateful for the kind way you deliver your points. You, too, are a blessing.

Thank you,

Fox

I think that's a good catch, Fox. Really good.

For me, it's fear that leads me down a dark road, and causes an urge in me to inspect all aspects of my life, the most OBVIOUS issues take the lead, and the lack of touch is something that has been draining me.

I don't think I'm causing a ruckus to avoid the fear of the surgery. I think it's more like I mentioned above; the generalized fear taking me to bad places.

Now, as far as not being touched, this won't work for me. As Mimi expressed earlier



and I do have this expectation, as a part of a happy marriage, for ME. This is an EN that needs to be met; it is very high on the list. This is something that we DID very well, at one time. From the beginning and stretching far into our M, we TOUCHED quite a bit, probably up until 6 months before the first A.

The thought of being in pain, and not being comforted by touch is probably what brought this to the forefront for me.

I know it has, SL. And it really should be addressed. I completely agree with you in regards to its importance.

You know your sitch better than any of us - if you say now is the time - then I'm behind you 100%.

I truly hope you get what you are looking for.

I know it's not the same - but I'd hug you IRL if I could.

((((SilentLucidity))))

Fox

I am doing a fly by. What else is he doing to fill the LB?

I know this has been an issue for a while now. So if not this EN what EN's is he filling? Is he making deposits in other area's that are important for you?

Can your LB be in a ever have a postive balance or is the not touching offsetting the depostits he is making.

I am talking about EN's though not area's of improvement that you have noticed.

For instance my wife cooks more now that is a positive but it isn't filling one of my main EN's. So even though it is a good thing it doesn't fill my emotional tank.

((((sl)))))

Hi Frog,

He certainly does fill other EN's. Domestic support, Financial support, Family commitment, conversation has gotten better, and some Recreational companionship. The only problem I have with the last one of this list is that it has been me planning things together or me asking to accompany him on things he wants to do (like the concert that we went to).

Initially, the top of my list contained more about family than us (eg financial support, family commitment), now the top of my list is weighted with the need for affection, SF, recreational companionship. It's probably because I notice that these things are lacking, and it concerns me.

When it all comes down to it, I need affection more than anything else. For the most part, it's always been very high, if not #1 in my list. It's now sticking out like a sore thumb.

So, I'm still thinking on this a bit. When I got home from work yesterday, my BIL was hanging out with PWC, so there wasn't much interaction between us. THey were playing video games, and I'm just not intereseted, and they were VERY loud, which is one of the last things I was looking forward to when I got home. No time to talk.

I'm also sort of waiting on my emotional wave to pass on a bit. It is pretty intense these past couple of days; I'm thinking it's hormonal at this point . It feels like it--overwhelming. Going into a discussion like this could lead to me overreacting. I'm beginnning to KNOW myself all too well. I need a bit more time to collect myself.

I'm going to read back over the last 24 hours, to get some perspective, start to formulate some questions, and ideas.

Hi SL,

Thanks for dropping by on my thread even though you seem to have your hands full.

I think you are doing great given the challenges are faced with, and seeing that you are getting great advice, I am just dropping by to send you some support and major major

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((CYBERHUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Silent:

I had written the most thoughtful and insightful post ever regarding Mimi's request to me that I address the SF issue.

Alas, when it was time to post it, I got the "Form no longer valid" prompt.

So, Your stuck with this rambling NOW.

The way I see it, if the RC time increases, then the Affection will come.

Your not interested in the video games, and that's ok. But it DID represent something to get connected to PWC with. If he enjoys them, then you could find some way in.

Whether it is the football or other sports games, you could participate by watching. Where was DS? Hopefully, he was involved?

My 15 year old plays the Madden football, but he DUMBS down the opposing team so much that the other team has NO offense, or DEFENSE (Sort of like the Ravens...) Makes me crazy. You didn't BEAT THEM 155-0. You just rigged it on your favor.

But, that's my issue. He's having fun. I should just watch and enjoy his amusement.

Can't you see? Even with BIL there, it is a time to share.

It shows Admiration.... "Wow! Great tackle!"
A chance to touch... "High Five!" or thigh to thigh on the couch.
Connection to the home... "he's playing here... and there is DS.

The surgery and those issues bring the lack of affection to the forefront. When you are in your bed, in pain, WHAT will PWC do THEN?

Tough to contemplate, hence the fear.

And the SF need?

Anger on his part. All the things that were wrong, come down to THAT ANGER.

The Loss of the happy fun S/L after the arrival of DS.
The loss of spontaniety.
The loss of .......

So, therefore, He is Angry. And until he finds a way to release his anger, (admitted, he should NOT BE with you, but he is) he is withholding the affection/SF from you, even if it makes him uncomfortable.

RC and other activites like that will provide the waves against the rocks of his anger. Slowly grinding them down.

Are you ready to be the waves?

Thoughout this thread, even on your prior threads, you have been asked about your RC activities with PWC. And they seem sporadic at best. Time for the waves. And yes, PWC has been hesitant. Resistant even.

But when he talked with you about that need of his, and he was visibly shaking, it still can't seem to happen.

Why? Money? Time? Activities? Opportunities?

Well.

Time to change that. Be the wave.

IT will destroy the anger. And create a better foundation for affection and SF.

JMVHO.

LG

Go get the Wii. My Parents love the games on that. They come over to watch the kids and everytime we come home there they are playing it.

However I do not like to put the Onus on just you. You have your faults and you aren't perfect but I see that you are continuing in your efforts!!! I think that you should of course continue to try to recover your M but all the heavy lifting isn't on you. AGain that is just my opinion.


Here are the questions:

1. Why don't you......? Very important to just wait. Do not give suggestions just wait for an answer.

If it is your hair and he would love to touch you if you had purple hair you could then go to.

So if I buy a purple wig you would.....? Yes.

What else.

If it is I don't know. Ask nicely for him to think hard and ask if he can think about it and discuss it in three days. In three days ask again.

The bottom line is that you should stop guessing and stop poking around trying to figure it out.

The why is necessary.

What happens if the why is nothing you can change?

Then you really need to make a decesion don't you.

LG, the RC is something that I have been working on. It takes a lot of effort on my part to find babysitters, money, where to go, etc. PWC is NO help in what we can do. I ask, and he says not much of anything. I don't think I can be more open with him about this. I'm an opened book.

Every time RC is addressed, I try HARDER. I also have had a lot of illness and pain as of late, so I may be slipping. It's really not intentional, but I do grow tired of PULLING. There are TWO of us here. I know you are only speaking to me, as I'm the one posting, but please believe me when I say I'm running full steam. I ask what he would like to do, and he says "I dunno". I make suggestions, and he says something like, well I'm not as interested in that, but I'll go.

Soooo, I ask, AGAIN, is there something you would like to do INSTEAD, we could figure this out together.

I can't tell you how tired I am of this right now. He is more than welcome to be angry with me for whatever reason he wants, but not telling me and holding some false ground against me is NOT working in his favor. I've been very honest and open with him and ASKED the same of him. Asked if he's angry, what is he angry about.

Most of the responses I have gotten have been that he doesn't WANT me in some way or another. So, I try and work and touch and give and change. I've said it before, I'm not interested in going backward. I use the past as a teaching tool, not as punishment. If he's not finished punishing me, well, I can't help him. It will just drive me away, just as my anger would drive him away.

I've told him all of this. I don't like repeating myself over and over. It bores him, he doesn't hear me anymore, and it just frustrates me.

I will continue to try and find things for us to do, but I honestly don't know how much more I have in me right now.

Frog,

The why has been asked and poked and prodded. He won't tell me why ANYTHING. HE just says he doesn't wanna, and if he doesn't FEEL it, he CAN'T.

It's highly discouraging, to say the least, and yet I continue on, changing and working. I know I have a bit left in me. I'm not indifferent at this point, just tired.

I'm emotional right now, which doesn't help my perspective.

As for the video game, it was 'Guitar Hero" and he and BIL were blasting it, continually playing song after song. It honestly is BORING for the bystander. I'm really not interested. They played the same three songs over and over and over. When he's playing adventure games or ANY OTHERS, I'm usually sitting by, talking, helping, talking, close by. Just not last night.

Oh, and as for DS, he was sitting on the couch watching, largely ignored. I'm not being judgmental, it's just how PWC and BIL were, really into the game. DS was allowed to try a couple of times to play a tune, but that was about it. I found him crying on the kitchen floor (he's so dramatic) when his dad took the guitar back and didn't let him strum another tune.

My old tag line "The definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

This is a HUGE issue in your M and yet is still goes unresolved.

Do you really really believe that one day it will just work itself out? Has it yet?

So you are willing to live with I don't know, I just dont wanna? No you aren't.

So now what?

HEAR THIS. YOU DISERVE MORE THEN, I DON'T KNOW WHY.

No gorry details but the FWW and I had that problem. I said well I love you but to me that is important. If you can't I really don't see a future for us. It is a need and if you won't fulfill it I just won't be happy in this M.

That EN makes me happy. You say you don't know why but you don't feel like it.

What I am hearing is this......He refuses to do what makes you happy and he can't spend the time or energy to work through it.

I personally think you should EXPECT at least some thought and an actual reason.

NOPE, I believe it working it out, but we all know that it takes both of us believing and trying. I have been trying to lead by example, but I don't see a lot of change in this particular need. In others, I see more effort, and this is probably why I keep trying.




Unfortunately, no I'm not willing to live with it. I'm no longer in a place where I can live with the uncertainty and a lack of commitment. That's just me. To me, this is allowing weakness into an already crumbling foundation, and not being willing to shore it up, make it stronger.

I would accept a reason behind his reluctance and lack of communication in this area, IF he were currently doing something to better understand it and himself. He's not.

This is why I want to get to a better emotional state before bringing all this up. It's a heavy subject for him. It's not for me, but leading these discussions takes a lot of effort on my part.

Reading my thread, you will see this SAME subject come back over and over again. It sticks out and needs some real answers. Maybe he doens't wanna and knows that this will spell D, and doesn't want that either. NOT doing anything about it is NOT the right answer, though.

I'm going to try to show the affections, and ask the questions once again. I do believe that he has come thru withdrawal, but only recently. There have been marked changes since about a month ago (after our last heavy conversation). We'll see.

See this is why I need to jump in every once in a while.

To take the burden off of you. LOL.

I have read your thread I know it was/is/always will be unless it is addressed.

I see in you a person with a lot of reslove that is willing to try to push that rock up the hill. You have done a lot of pushing.

Now you need help.

Lets be realistic. Nobody "CAN'T" be affectionate. They may not want or like or feel the need but they CAN be with a little effort.

So this is not on you. It is on him.

In my experiance I didn't get the results I wanted until I clearly articulated it was a deal breaker for me with my intnetion of leaving. It wasn't a threat. It was simple, I had a NEED, fill it we have a chance. Don't fill it and we don't have a chance.

If you need time or help I will give that to you. What I won't give is permission to not give me what I need.

I do believe this is his issue. I am going to articulate myself better. The marriage we currently have is not for me. I WANT more. I NEED more from my man.

I'm willing to take baby steps, but unwilling to sit still, letting the moss grow. YUCK! That's probably why, nearly every month, I sit and bring things up, ask questions and try to get to the bottom of why he's doing what he IS OR ISN'T doing.

I don't want to know how he's TRYING, i want to talk about and hash out how we are going to make this thing happen, even if it's two years in the making. I need to see initiative from him in this area.

Ouch. I hope this was the exception rather than the rule.

This was the exception, but it was behavior that PWC exhibited in the past with DS, before the A's.

It reminds me of siblings, one being younger and hanging on to the older one, and the older sibling feeling burdoned by the younger one. I KNOW this behavior, because I was the younger sibling. I'm not saying he acts like this all of the time, but he does seem burdoned by the world at large, and that is unattractive to me.

It seemed like falling into old behaviors.

So now the focus is on the touch and intimacy issue. The most important issue.

Other smaller issues can stay unresolved for now. Like possibly falling inot old behaviors.

The reason being is is he can't/won't commit to your #1 EN then otehr issues are irrelevant anyway.

You really only have one issue. The most important issue. If that can never be resolved resentment will always be there.

If that issue is resolved to your liking then you can worry about the rest later.

Give him a sole focus and maybe that will help.

Good luck. Oh an happy holidays.

Oh SL the more I read your thread the more I realize how VERY similar our H's reactions/nonreactions are. SCAREY. I feel for you.

Have you asked your H how he sees your M? Ok, needing work, or does he just exist in it, or does he look at you weird like what are you talking about?

I don't think I've seen this forgive me asking if it is posted somewhere, when did the A end, and how long have you been in 'recovery'?

The behavior is something that triggers me, as PWC has said many times, in the past, how he felt FORCED into parenthood (like I stole his sperm or something, WHATEVER!). Now, I can't force him to do anything, but the remark still sits in the back of my brain, with MY old behaviors and thoughts, telling me that I'm not good enough and that I'm deficient for wanting a child or wanting MORE. I know it's crap, and that much of this is his deficiency, something he will carry with him into any relationships.

His relationship with his son is his to deal with. I can't MAKE him be more receptive to others' needs. It's a CHOICE to think of others, IMO. It's a choice to care for them, never a burden, IMO.

mvg, I have asked something along those lines in our past conversations, probably sometime in October, maybe earlier? ANyway, I couldn't tell you, because he is not clear on this. Again, I talk to him and get the picture of non-commital.

His first A ended (when OW went to NC with him) around October '05. The second A ended May 5, 05, when we agreed to recovery.

Silent:

This line:


Why?

What happened here?

I mean, you were married for 5 years before DS came along.

Fatherhood is scarey. I just spent the last hour at the High School Counslors office regarded 15yoDS's grades.

So.

Motherhood is scarey TOO. Even more so. THE child grows in you, and is dependant on you after birth. Many Husbands/Fathers fail in these early years. (LG>>> Raises Hand) But I THOUGHT I was doing well. Flamingo had a different opinion. And hers was the one that mattered here!

PWC was 3 years younger than me when our respective children were born.

Maybe that is a larger gulf than I imagined.

Maybe he is just more of the party guy.

And that is great, but to truly party, you really have to feel no responsibility in life.

And here we are.

Now the need for RC comes to the forefront. And I know about your efforts that way. You have done much, and you hope for MORE from PWC. But the blank stare, or um, oh, maybe not, I don kow' stuff can really grate.

Are there any more shirts in the house?

That SEEMED to spark something.

IN both of you.

What to do? Start with the back/neck rubs as LA proposed.

Maybe that can start the affection and touching thing moving along.

Silent, after re-reading my earlier post, it was kind of harsh. And swerved from topic to topic somewhat. Sorry. Somethings occurred to me as I typed along and I went with my thoughts.

I'm sorry.

LG

Don't be sorry LG. All these posts help me to get back to the nitty gritty. THe ealier post got me to think, and be more firm in my position. I don't think I would HARP on this particular subject if it weren't a deal breaker for me. It's become more and more apparent as I move along and grow.

As far as why PWC feels the way he does or DID is not for me to guess. He's said that he doesn't feel the same about being a father NOW. The behavior triggered me. I let it stand alone, though, as it's own subject, trying not to compare it to the past.

PWC wasn't feeling well, so he stayed home from work. He invited his BIL over to hang out, but BIL didn't show up until after 3PM. They were in full guitar tilt at that point. Then DS comes home and is EXCITED that daddy and BIL are hanging out and wants to hang out too, play some games, too, wanting to be the center of attention, as many chilren do.

I was largely ignored, too, but that's no reflection on me, really.

PWC is definitely the party kind of guy. He likes to stay up really late on the weekends (4AM). I'm not looking for the next big party, but the party for two. I can stay up late for the right occassion, and HAVE.

I think the neck/back rubs are a good idea. I also have practiced and will continue mvg's suggestions on her thread, to do 'fly by's' by kissing him, or touching his hand or his back, giving him a little squeeze and walking away. As LA said, sometimes I don't want to, but I still do, to get in the habit, until it turn to a desire.

I just don't get what he's doing about his sexual needs..from a physical point of view...for six whole months...

Is he ever MIA?

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't take him a looooong time to accomplish the task at hand (ha, I made a funny). HE is never MIA, but it's also not something that takes loads of time to just get done, if that's all your looking for.

these are questions I plan to get to the bottom of. I have begun TALKS on the subject. We'll see where they go. I've told him to take some time to think about what I have revealed to him, about my needs, and how important they are to ME. I was positive, but very honest. The need for affection, admiration, financial support and RC are very high for me right now; they have always been right up there at the top, for as long as i can remember.

Anyway, I hope to at least begin peace talks soon.

Mimi, I know that I have been taking care of myself for a WHOLE SIX MONTHS, so it stands to reason (barring any physical issues he hasn't revealed--it's a possibility) that he's been taking care of himself.

I am happy that I've mustered the courage to really bring this to the front again. I've told him that I want to start working on getting to that fabulous marriage we both want. I was very positive. I believe that we can do this, but I recognize that it requires his participation.

I don't see in him someone who wants to leave, I see someone who doesn't believe, and who allows his fear to keep him rutted. It's a shame he can't get the thwacks I've gotten here, to own myself, my actions and my thoughts. To TAKE ACTION.

When he got home last night, I gave him a nice big hug, kissing him on the neck, welcoming him home from a rough day at work. It was nice to do it. One small step for SL...

Emotions are on an even keel today. I'm not weepy or angry. I think the hormonal standoff is over for now.

LG will be happy to know that I sat and watched DS and PWC play their guitar hero game. It was a much better experience without the LOUDNESS and DS got lots of one on one attention from his dad. It fills me up to see them laugh together.

^5 SL! I'm glad things are a bit better. I'm happy YOU are feeling more positive too.

You can't keep a good woman down, mvg! No way, no how.

(I've been listening to my Mary J. Blige this mornin'. Can ya tell?)

So how come you can't do this EVERY DAY?

This is what I'm saying, Mimi. This is going to be MY every day. This is the decision I made yesterday. I will give affection, because I want to, and want to feel connected to him.

It felt good to exchange body heat, to touch him, to connect in that way. He was receptive, which helps a great deal. The emotional abyss I found myself in the last couple of days didn't help me focus, so I decided to journal a bit, and found clarity.

The physical issue is still there, and PWC will have to step it up a bit, but that wont' stop me from doing my part, from practicing what I preach.

LOL...She'll do a lot for you with attitude! One of my favorites!!!!

Talk about empowerment!

GO SL!!!

Her new CD was released on the 18th, and from what I've heard so far, is very positive. I often wonder what got her to this higher plane. THe one that we are all working on; that positive place, where happiness lies within. When I feel down, I listen to her. She speaks to me.

Mimi is my Mary J. on these boards. She always has an uplifting message, and gets me to tap into my inner strength. I don't talk about it much, because the relationship is new and very personal right now, but I believe that God had something to do with Mimi coming to me.

I'm blessed with some wonderful friends here, Rin. Don't you feel the same?

MOST definitely...best thing I ever did was come here...

This was my starting point in so many ways...my first friends...b/c I didn't have any at the time...not real ones...

...trusting untrustworthy people...

plenty of that!

It's great to have family here! You guys fill me with warmth and love!

I don't think stating your #1 emotional need as harping!!!!

When we had our issue I was completely open and honest with my wife. This is an absolute deal breaker, I cannot see this working out. Not only that I would have never married you if this is how it was when we were courting.

I tried bargaining and explaining and finally I just said oh well it would be easier for you to fulfill my need then living alone and raising 2 kids but I guess it isn't that important to you. Low and behold when faced with the reality of the situation she started filling my needs.

Not necessarily MB stuff but you know what our M is better for it.

I was honest about everything, Frog. His participation is not mandatory, but will have it's own ripple effect.

I used the word HARPING to illustrate how a closed minded person would view the honesty, instead of looking on it as a chance to grow closer, and better understand your spouse, one might view it as criticism. The way I stated my needs was pretty concise, and I didn't say that he HAD to fill them, just that I won't exist in a marriage without them. This is my choice. He has his own choices to make.

If I say that I won't exist in a marriage without affection, admiration, SF, conversation, RC, and so on, then I believe that I have to GIVE these things also. His choice is to step up and contribute or not. If he WON'T contribute in the ways that I need, that is his choice.

Right leading by example and giving to him what you would like in return. I feel the same on that.


Have you clearly articulated to him what chosing not to contribute means?

If within x amount of time if I don't see significant progress I will do y.

Geez I think from my recollection you have tried almost everything.

So now it is clear that the "issue" is with him. Maybe he needs to see someone or talk it through.

Maybe that can be the start. I want you to go see and talk to someone to work through the WHY you aren't affectionate and touching etc.

It's clear that this marriage will be over if he won't do this. I'm at peace with this decision. I have not put a stringent time limit on it, but I plan on elaborating more. I wanted to give him a couple of days to think about it.

Each time I talk about my needs, I think about DS and the impact my decisions will have on him. I just can't be in a marriage without touch. To me, it's not a marriage.

I'm not asking him to jump my bones right now, but to begin to touch me, even in the smallest of ways, and then work up to the yummy stuff.

I don't want to get to personal but here we go down a slippery slope that I don't know if you have been down.

Have you ever just got undressed and said "Jump my bones right now"?

Just to let you know though you are treating him more then fair here.

I know how it feels when you have to way the kids in to your decesion.

I tell my W that she cannot make me happy or sad but she can be a source of happiness or sadness for me.

In a good M the Spouse strives to be a source of happiness. Touch makes you happy. He should strive to be that source.

Heck I wish thats all my wife wanted, but then again we would have 20 kids if it was.

Actually this is a GREAT IDEA... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I'm busy today..

But SL...looks like YOU have lots more of your own work to do...

Don't we all?

I'm STILL working on being a better wife...

I'm right there with you...

I thought you were doing the affection thing DAILY...hugging him, touching him...

Let's start that, OK?

I have to WORK not to even just ACCIDENTALLY touch my H in the bed at night...try leg to leg while he's sleeping...

LOTS OF HOPE left for ya...LOTS...

LATER...

OT:
What's the title, if you don't mind me asking?

I was touchin and huggin for quite a long time, Mimi. Without any type of reciprocation, it wore me down. I still did many OTHER things for PWC, just stopped doing as much of the touchin.

The last time I said "jump my bones" his body was less than receptive, and it hurt a great deal. It was a real ego and moral dive for me. I've since grown in my personal growth and know this was not about me.

I'm not quite ready to do the 'unwrap my gift' kinda thing again. I put myself out there many times. I don't plan on stopping, but I'm putting a limit on how much longer I can go without him telling me what he needs and beginning to see the importance of filling my most important needs.



This is how it USED to be with us. It has actually surprised me that this is such an uphill battle with him.

Rin,

The cd is called "Growing Pains". I'm looking forward to purchasing it soon. I'm going to wait until after Christmas to see if Santa heard my request.

MAN, THAT'S AWESOME!!!

Listening to Work THAT!!!!

THANK YOU SL!!!!

Rin's got new music!!! :doing the happy dance:

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

________________________

THat's it! I'm getting a new ringtone REALLLLL SOONNNNN!!!

"Just Fine" is a very uplifting song. I can't wait to have the whole album.

SL....OMG, GIRL...This CD is OFF the HOOK!!!

The whole thing!!!

I'm going to pray that Santa heard you!!!

YOU ARE THE BOOM!!!

Appreciate the heads up!

Silent:

May you be able to break thru to PWC soon.

I have offered to deliver the headslap personnally.

If you decide to take me up on that, you can get it touch.

Good luck!

I hope it works out.

(((((S/L))))

LG

Hey LG,

Thanks for dropping in! I hope he has more of an awakening, too. We'll see. It was a nice holiday; we spent lots of time watching movies together, in the evenings, and laughing and joking.

I've told him that I want to revisit some of the things I've said in a little bit (probably this weekend, sometime) and get his input on how we can get this party moving and groovin' in the right direction, together. We also have to discuss more about my post surgery recovery; he will have to take on the lion's share of duties around the house for a bit, and we will have to play it by ear as to when I can pick up doing more again.

I hope it all works out too.

Off to the dentist to shine up my off white, coffee stained teeth. Then to the vet with the dogs for their booster shots. I'll check in later.

Hi SL,

I am glad the holidays went well. It sounds like maybe the baby steps are starting to add up. You have done very well and deserve the best.

LG, your posts today have a sort of "signing off" ring to them. I hope not.

howdy chrisner!

It looks like a song is in order

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

Thanks SL!

47 and doing good! Well, my right knee is more like 57 and a little iffy plus my first birthday gift this morning was a flat tire in a snow storm, 8 degrees and a driving wind but all in all I feel great!

Congrats again on your progress.

Well, as of this morning, I have spoken to WH about MC and about me being at the end of my rope. I've told him that I can't recover this thing alone, and that initially, I believe that recovery is a choice that is counterintuitive. HE must choose.

I told him that I love him, and I'm letting him go. I can't continue on this same trek. It's the same thing over and over again. I don't need him throwing me anymore bones, I need commitment, honesty and TOUCH.

I've told him that I am willing to do everything within my power to recover, but only if he truly commits.

This whole process has taught me some valuable lessons. Firstly, I cannot control anyone but myself. THat being said, I must speak up with what is troubling me, walking into the fear of the unknown, not able to control the outcome, but not living with an unsavory situation out of fear.

As for MC, I have suggested it a number of times, to no avail. I have found a number of marriage coaches in the area that deal in these problems with the same style as the Harley's, and also have suggested the Harleys. I have counseled with Jennifer, and taken her suggestions and applied them, as well as worked on personal recovery (thank God for you guys, pushing me to look inward).

PWC knows that I love him; he sees my changes (his words), he sees my efforts and said that it was HIM. I told him that I believe getting to romantic love and intimacy is a choice. So far, from my perspective, he chooses NOT to get there with me.

Basically, the conversation boiled down to him. THere is nothing more that I can do, until he chooses our M.

HE says that he has nothing further to add to the last conversation we had about this subject. He last said that he has to WANT ME, in order to DO this (recovery). The methods of the Harleys state that you can be in total withdrawal and still get it all back, with practice and application. I believe them. From what he says, PWC still believes that love is just supposed to happen, that you are supposed to FALL in love. I believe that it takes effort and work (even new relationships require constant attention, except we WANT to give that attention in the beginning).

All in all, I know I've made every conceivable effort to woo him back. It's just not working. He may be too lost, and only he can lead himself back.

I'm getting my hair colored today. It's short now, and it will be BLONDE (I have light brown hair). I'm looking forward to the change.

I'll talk at you guys later. Love y'all.

All in all, I know I've made every conceivable effort to woo him back. It's just not working. He may be too lost, and only he can lead himself back.

I'm getting my hair colored today. It's short now, and it will be BLONDE (I have light brown hair). I'm looking forward to the change.

I'll talk at you guys later. Love y'all.

Prayers out to you SL and your H (he also gets a big thunk on the head). The way you've handled you situation and your outlook has been very encouraging to me.

How blonde? I hope it's true for you that Blondes have MORE FUN! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey we love you to!

SL,

I'll be praying that PWC opens his heart to see that there are steps he can take, and needs to take to get your M to the level of intimacy it can have. I will be focusing in his gaining understanding that with the effort on his part, the long term payoff for HIM is HUGE!!

I don't think he sees or believes that at all right now. Drac admitted it seemed logical and possible,,,,but he didn't really believe in the Payoff being BIG enough for him to take the steps. He stayed mired in the same place as PWC,,,,,,,,,doubting that the steps would work, that the changes ARE possible, and mostly, doubting that they would be long term and permanent.

If you are able to continue doing so well, there is such great hope that he will come to see & believe, and then PARTICIPATE in doing his part to bring it all to fruition.

I understand that you can only go on for so long the way you have. So, my friend, I can only encourage you and support you in your current path & efforts, , , , which I find SO amazing and admirable. Keep your eye on yourself. Be sure you are taking care of yourself. Your personal recovery is a shining example to everyone who reads here.

So,,,,,,,,,I'll ask, too. Just HOW blonde are you going??!!

SL:

I admire you for stating your truth without fear. Other things are truly out of our control. I KNOW your husband will look at himself and his behavior in a different light some time, I hope it's sometime soon, not too late after you lost all the love for him.

When my husband was in the fog, my touch would bring him physical stress and he would withdraw, not intentionally, but subconsiouly. But he did try. And he overcome his own "psychological barrier" as he put it, little by little.
If he had not tried, we would have stuck there also. But people have to try and without trying, there is no change.

Sometimes certain events need to happen to strike people into actions. Maybe you need to think of doing something else. When I was dealing with my H's withdrawal, I found that when I was more distant and seem to care less, he seemed to come closer and it's like a little dance and that lasted several months. Maybe it's time for you to be cool
since you have said you wanted to let him go?? I'm not sure. It's so hard to analyze another human being...

Short blond hair, huh?? That's so cool! How do you like it now? Take care of yourself. You are the one that matters the most to you. It's truly his loss if he losses you and you know that.

Snowy

{{{{SL}}}}

You can't make someone not live backwards...he said he's waiting to feel something to then choose to do something.

You're no longer living backwards, are you?

I hope your hair comes out...oh, wait...I was gonna say 'okay'...lemme rephrase...

:::insert ornery lookin' smiley face:::

You're gonna look great...good self-care. When is your massage scheduled?

LA

The hair is blondy blonde in the front and a darker brown underneath. It's HOT! A stark difference from just a week ago, but it's kickin'. I like to mix it up.

Well, ladies, thanks for chiming in on the subject. I can't go backwards. I can't be LESS informed now. I can't undo what I've learned. I have a momentum that will not allow for backstepping very often of very far.

I do love PWC, and would love for him to be happy. Maybe I'm not the one for him to be that with. Maybe he has to drop further to get to his core. Unfortunately, I fear that he will continue down the same path, looking outside himself for the answer. HIs choice, really.

I know that we could have it ALL, if we both walk through the darkness together. He may not trust that.

I can't tell you enough how much I admire the choices you are making and the healthy boundaries you are practicing.

You are doing a great job.

Regardless of what your H chooses, you are a phenomenal lady and I will support you.

What a TRUE GODDESS you've become..a BLONDE GODDESS at that...

(((((SL)))))

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

He still sounds foggy to me. It's disturbing.

I admire your choices, too, SL. And how well you're holding up through all of this. I hope it gets better soon.

(((SL)))

SL,



You ROCK,,, you Goddess you!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Happy Birthday, Froz!

SL - Now I'm thinking of going out and getting my hair professionally colored. Once every three years isn't too indulgent, is it?

LA

Thanks, LA!



Freeloader talk. "We shouldn't have to TRY. It should be effortless or we're wrong for each other."

The sad thing about that mentality is who knows just how many relationships one needs to begin and end before they either decide that NO ONE is right for them or that their belief was wrong and they missed the opportunity to bloom where they were planted to begin with.

SL,

Good luck on your operation tomorrow. I will be thinking of you all day. Let us know how you are when you can. Do what you need to do to recover and don’t rush.

You are an inspiration and a true friend to many here.

There will be a candle lit in Denver tonight.

{{{{{{Good luck SL}}}}}}

Hey, hey, hey now, Chrisner...

TWO candles in Denver. TWO.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

How is it possible that SL, who is nothing CLOSE to a pain in the neck...has one?

:::shaking my head:::

LA

SL:
Same here, wish you best of luck on your operation tomorrow.
Focus on good thoughts and good feelings.
We will all be thinking of you.

Snow

SL is now sopping up the coffee from her keyboard after this line from LA...



I can always count on you guys to give me a good laugh. Thanks friends. You are sooooo appreciated.

Hopefully, we can get more candles lit and start a BONFIRE!!! Kinda like how my cake looks on my birthday these days. Thank you for the loving support.

I'll let y'all know how I'm doing post-op when I can.

LA,

I will put up three. My heating bill came in yesterday anyway and I could use the extra BTU's.

SL, this should make you smile:

Rainbow

God Bless you SL!!

I'll be thinking about you tomorrow!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Chrisner what a great link!

((SL in my prayers))) with candle lit on East Coast.

Chrisner, I'm crying, that was just beautiful. What's really strange, is she reminds me of myself, when i was her age. The hair, right down to the missing teeth.

I don't know what it is about kids that just tugs at my heart, but I always have a little tear for every join and pain that I witness with children. Probably because I'm a momma myself, I suppose.

Mimi, thank you my Goddess friend. This Goddess in training is going to keep a happy perspective, thanks to y'all, my family, friends, and YES, my husband.

Hey SL - just trying to catch up. Saying a prayer for you also.

Candle lite here! Thinking of you!

Rin

mvg, thank you my comrade in arms. East coast in the HOUSE!!!

Eph, hey there man! It's good to see you back posting. Thanks for the prayers.

In my prayers, SL.

(Representing the flyover states.)


(((hugs)))

Thinking of you, SL. My desk is alight with candles for you.

Opportunities abound from this situation - which ones can you find and take advantage of?

Don't ya love uber positivity? I'm sure by the time you read this you will be a bit sore from surgery and wanna slug me for challenging your misery. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It'll get better......

Fox

Adding to Fox's candles...I got one lit on my filing cabinets...it has two wicks...does that count for double? Make it plural?

It's orange scented.

No slugging.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Yes..PRAYING for SL today...

Let us all do that...it will matter...

Thinking of you today SL.

Hope all is well.

I've been traveling with the kids all day, but I'm lighting a candle now.

I bet she feels us LIFTING HER UP...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SL,

Sorry to join in the candle/prayer party so late! I took the time out to light candles,,,,I stopped counting at 10.

Seriously, my prayers are with you. With so many of us praying in agreement bringing God into the situation, his agreement is with ours and He will move in your sitch. Have not doubt He and all of us are with you every moment!

Ok,,, back to the humor. What's this about a cake bonfire?? Don't say that to someone MY age with a bday in a couple of weeks!!

Shut up! Wait until you're over 50. I don't even know my correct age anymore. I stopped counting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Anyone have an update on SL?

(((continuing prayers for SL)))

Howdy friends,

The operation went very well. I have three vertebrae fused (C5-C7). I've got the xrays from surgery, too. It's really strange seeing hardware in my neck and forceps right along side them. Very strange, indeed! Luckily, he remembered to remove the forceps before closing up. The operation began at about 9AM Friday and was over by 12:30PM. I was walking, unassisted, by 12AM that evening. I was released at 11:00AM the next morning.

The incision is pretty large, about 3 inches wide, starting from the left side of my throat, horizontally cut. They closed with staples inside and massive amounts of glue outside. I suppose I could be Frankenstein for Halloween this year, while the scar is still fresh.

I'm pretty sore, very stiff, but can turn my neck a bit, and am taking pain meds, so I'm as comfortable as possible. I slept for about 5 hours straight last night, which was nice. I've also been able to lengthen the time between meds, without suffering any pain, just discomfort from the stiffness.

I do not have to wear a collar and the doc says that I should only have about a 20% reduction in range of motion, once all is healed. The actual fusion should take about 3 months, but I may be released for light duty in 4 weeks. Doc says I'm doing really well.

Husband is taking really good care of me. I didn't have to get myself one thing this weekend. Unfortunately, he had to return to work today, and son is back in school, but my dad will be calling and stopping by, and my girlfriend lives about 5 minutes away, so I'm covered. I'm able to get about quite well, so I'm not afraid; I just recognize I need to take it really easy.

PWC was lovely before the surgery; he gave me a great big hug and kiss, and he's been very talkative since. It's nice to see him loosen up a bit. I actually SAW my husband. It was strange. I wonder why he can't be like that all of the time? Hopefully, we'll see more of him, and more of me with him. It takes two, you know.

I did feel your presence and am so grateful for it. I've gotten so much support, it's wonderful.

Well, the neck is getting stiff and my tea is finised steeping, so I'm gonna get comfy and watch some videos.

Thank you all for giving me something to laugh over when I got back.