Marriage Builders
Posted By: drgnfly Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 01:08 AM
A couple months ago Skald gave me his list of EP's. Lately I've been thinking about starting my own list of EP's. I don't believe only WS's should have to write these out - BS's should too. In fact, they should be a detailed part of our wedding vows and not just "implied". Obviously "implied" isn't good enough. Unfortunately we weren't informed of the importance of EP's when we married. Heck, most of us had not even heard the term Extraordinary Precautions until we came here because of our WS's affair.

I know some people will say that they don't have to fill out EP's because they would NEVER have an A - they know better and are smarter/stronger than that. You know what? I used to hear that ALL THE TIME from Skald for years before his A. He hated people that had affairs with a passion and believed they were weak and the scum of the earth. He had such strong convictions regarding A's that not one person that knew him believed he would EVER have an A. Dr. Harley states that those that believe they could never have an A are the most vulnerable.

Dr. Harley and Joyce have never been through an A, but he said that right at the beginning he made HIS list of EP's because he knew that HE is vulnerable to an A. We are all wired for A's.

Besides, this isn't about who's going to have an A or not. It's about taking all steps to protect our marriages.

So how many other BS's are going to take that step to protect our marriages and write their list of EP's??
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 06:29 AM
Flick actually said the same thing when he wrote his EP's.(BS's should have them as well as WS's) I haven't written any myself, mostly because we forgot about them, but maybe I should bring it up with him.

I know I could easily have an A, and in fact part of what shocked me on D-day, was that I always thought it would be me that left, not him.

Quote
Besides, this isn't about who's going to have an A or not. It's about taking all steps to protect our marriages


Amen. Please post yours so I can get an idea,
thanx
Posted By: drgnfly Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 01:37 PM
I don't have mine completed yet, but once I do I will post them.

Skald always believed I would be the one to leave. crazy
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 02:42 PM
I need to write one for my FWH as he can't seem to figure them out on his own.

Me personally i have never written them but i practice them on a daily basis and they are natural to me and have been since the day i met my FWH. To me EPs are just common sense and like "The Golden Rule". You have to think about how everything you do or say will effect the others in your life.
Posted By: drgnfly Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 03:50 PM
You are writing them FOR your FWH?? These should be something he writes himself as a commitment to the M. TST really helped my FWH with them. In fact you can find an example of TST's and Skald's here on the forums.

You expect your FWH to make the commitment and write them out, but you don't need to??

Did you believe that your FWH followed the EP's right from when you met? You probably believed he did, but he still strayed. Do you understand we are ALL vulnerable to an A? Especially if you are convinced that it could never happen.

Yes, I follow them and believe they are like the "Golden Rule", but I don't consider myself exempt from filling them out as a commitment to my M and taking every step I can. Like I said before, even Dr. Harley made his list.

Maybe instead of filling them out for FWH, you should lead by example and do yours.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 04:04 PM
No i am not writing them down for my FWH, i said i need to because he does not feel the need for EPs. And no he has never followed EPs EVER!!!

And i am not trying to knock Dr Harley at all, his website saved me. I do NOT however believe that we are all wired for affairs like he states.

I have ALWAYS followed EPs naturally. I do not talk to men about personal things PERIOD, i would not give a man a ride home, i would not go out to lunch with a man, i do not do girls nights out, i could keep going but i think you get the drift.

In the 25 years i have been with my H i have NEVER found myself in a situation where i could have had an affair. I avoid the situations altogether. Always have, always will and i feel EPs are just common sense like the golden rule.
Posted By: drgnfly Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 04:26 PM
I disagree, and hope you are never in a situation that makes you regret your current opinion.

Best wishes for your M.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 04:29 PM
Well that is fine, a lot of other MBers disagree with me as well, but i believe that we can just agree to disagree can't we?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by drgnfly
I disagree, and hope you are never in a situation that makes you regret your current opinion.

Best wishes for your M.

And i have found that it is pretty easy to just avoid situations where i am alone with a man (besides my H) for the past 25 years. And believe me very little of my ENs have been met by my FWH for ALL of those years so that in itself says a lot i think. I suppose it is POSSIBLE but HIGHLY UNLIKELY that i will ever find myself in that situation but thanks for the wishes.
Posted By: JoJo422 Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by drgnfly
I disagree, and hope you are never in a situation that makes you regret your current opinion.

Best wishes for your M.

And i have found that it is pretty easy to just avoid situations where i am alone with a man (besides my H) for the past 25 years. And believe me very little of my ENs have been met by my FWH for ALL of those years so that in itself says a lot i think. I suppose it is POSSIBLE but HIGHLY UNLIKELY that i will ever find myself in that situation but thanks for the wishes.

I too, do NOT EVER put myself in a situation where an A could happen. I too have almost never had my EN meet by my FWH either. But I'm not the one that had an A or even thought about having one.

I do however agree that we all are wired to have an A if the conditions are right. Affairs to me are like murder....given the right time, place and circumstance, we're all capible of it.

BS(me)45
F?WH 41
Married 6/1990
His EA? 4/07? to 4/08
DDay1 4/13/08
DDay2 8/8/08
S25 ~ SSgt USAF currently deployed to Iraq
S15
D9
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 07:02 PM
My goodness JoJo i would never commit murder either. Heck i do not even believe in the death penalty.

I just think that if you are ALWAYS aware of your situation you can easily avoid being alone around a member of the opposite sex.

And if you are never alone with a member of the opposite sex it is highly unlikely you are going to have a A unless you are going to do it in front of a bunch of other people.

That is all i am saying.
Posted By: JoJo422 Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 07:46 PM
Quote
My goodness JoJo i would never commit murder either. Heck i do not even believe in the death penalty.


Well I wouldn't committ murder either, not premeditated anyway....and I do believe in the Death Penalty.

You mean to tell me if you walk into your house one night and there's someone in there and they attack you, you won't fight back? YOu won't grab the closest thing and wack the crap out of them regardless and with no thought that you may kill them?

You mean to tell me that you walk up on someone physically hurting your child that you won't attempt to stop them with no thought to whether you kill them?

YOU NEVER KNOW when you are going to be put in a position for either. NEVER SAY NEVER.....

YOUR NEVER MAY BE TOMORROW!!

Posted By: black_raven Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 08:04 PM
That wouldn't be considered murder though. Are you okay Jo? You sound like you want to whack H, not fatally...

**going to your poly thread**
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 08:14 PM
Well of course i would protect myself and my children and my spouse, but like the other poster stated that would not be murder, it would be self defense.

And i did change my response to say that i suppose it is POSSIBLE, but HIGHLY UNLIKELY that i would have an A because of the EPs i have ALWAYS had in place.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/23/09 09:16 PM
I think it's important to remember WHY a wayward needs & creates EP's. It's a form of just compensation for the betrayed spouse.

Dr. Harley says it well in his Q&A section;

"The first act of compensation to you from your husband should be to end his relationship with the other woman once and for all. He should never see or talk to her again, even if it means leaving his job or moving your family to another state......"

"And then he should put extraordinary precautions in place to guarantee that another affair will not take it's place. Has he considered the circumstances that led to his affair? Intoxication, business trips that separate you overnight, close friendships with those of the opposite sex, recreational relationships that do not include you, and so forth, should be subject to scrutiny. What was it that made him vulnerable? Whatever it was, he should take extraordinary precautions to avoid it in the future. It's part of just compensation for the suffering he's caused you to bear."


For the betrayed spouse, this is a critical action step needed from the wayward in the process of recovering from infidelity.

Asking a BS to make a list of EP's themselves is not really necessary, as they have nothing to compensate for.

Following the rule of POJA handles all the necessary protection that will be needed, as you must have ENTHUSIASTIC AGREEMENT about all decisions.

I do want to add that I see nothing wrong with a BS creating a visible list of EP's to demonstrate their willingness to protect their M. But just keep in mind it doesn't serve the same purpose as a FWS's list.
Posted By: drgnfly Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 01:21 AM
I get that this is a form of just compensation for the BS from the WS, and I'm not trying to take away from that. Yes, I am partially writing these EP's for FWH, but I am mainly writing them for my M and for MYSELF. I believe that we all have to make ourselves accountable for our actions. If we'd written these EP's right from the start as Dr. Harley had done in his relationship, we most likely wouldn't be here now.

I have unintentionally followed my EP's throughout our relationship out of instinct, but I feel now that I need to make the next step to make myself stronger. Looking back at my own actions in some situations, I have noticed little things I have done that I need to eliminate in order to make our M A-Proof. I'm not perfect and I never will be, but I can always make myself better.

Not making this list because I have followed my EP's throughout our relationship is like going to a dealership to get a new car and telling them I don't need any safety features because I've never been in an accident and I'm a very safe driver. There is a possibility that I could get in an accident, but I find it highly unlikely, so why should I get those safety features? Why should I get them to protect myself, my H, or DD?

Posted By: KiwiJ Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 02:55 AM
I would like to just say that I followed EPs for 28 years of marriage (and before that) and I was 48 before I had an A. I was one of those who loathed cheating, hated cheaters and could never, ever conceive of having an A myself. I have always had a huge prickly barrier around me which warns men off, plus everyone who has ever met me while I've been married has noticed how "married" I am (if that makes sense).

But.... old flame, the right circumstances and I had an A.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 05:47 AM
I KNOW it could just have easily been me...

I am going to write some
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by KiwiJ
I would like to just say that I followed EPs for 28 years of marriage (and before that) and I was 48 before I had an A. I was one of those who loathed cheating, hated cheaters and could never, ever conceive of having an A myself. I have always had a huge prickly barrier around me which warns men off, plus everyone who has ever met me while I've been married has noticed how "married" I am (if that makes sense).

But.... old flame, the right circumstances and I had an A.

Okay so here you say old flame......right circumstances.......

So to me that means you spent time alone with this person or you talked to this person on a personal level or possibly both.

I do not have any old flames that i would even care to speak to again (not that i hate them or anything it is just that i did not care for them the way i care for my FWH) and i am not ever alone with men and i do not ever talk personal stuff with ANY male and i have not for 25 years.

I have worked at my company for 12 years and i work with 4 males and 5 females. I talk to all of them everyday, but i can not tell you where any of the four males live, what they do when they are not at work, what kind of car they drive, i do know that 2 of them are married and have children, the other is a single dad, and the last one is homosexual (because he has brought his partner to work numerous times). That is pretty much all i could tell you about any of the four of them and i see and speak to them every day. Now the females on the other hand i know a lot about them, but that is okay.

I have discovered that me and my H do not even have the same beliefs in what a marriage "should look like" and believe me when i say if anyone in our M should have had an A it should have been me, however i have still not ever put myself in a situation where i could have an A or where i could let another man meet my needs.

Even now that we are having so many issues with trying to recover our M after infidelity i would not consider having an A.
Posted By: JoJo422 Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
That wouldn't be considered murder though. Are you okay Jo? You sound like you want to whack H, not fatally...

**going to your poly thread**

smile No, not whack him just maybe beat the crap out of him some days smile

OK....not murder but kill someone for whatever reason. The whole point was.....We're ALL capable of it.....even though MOST OF US would not PLAN IT.
Posted By: drgnfly Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by KiwiJ
I would like to just say that I followed EPs for 28 years of marriage (and before that) and I was 48 before I had an A. I was one of those who loathed cheating, hated cheaters and could never, ever conceive of having an A myself. I have always had a huge prickly barrier around me which warns men off, plus everyone who has ever met me while I've been married has noticed how "married" I am (if that makes sense).

But.... old flame, the right circumstances and I had an A.

How does this happen? I have some ideas on how this works with different people, but I'd like to know what happened in your case if you don't mind.

Were your defenses down?
My FWH followed EP's by instinct for most of our M, but due to many factors his defenses weren't as strong when OW came along. They worked together and their A started with the whole office between them, not behind closed doors. She noticed he was having a bad day, and did everything in her power to make him smile. That made huge deposits into his bank. With defenses down from everything that was going on with us and him, she was able to walk right in without too much effort.

Were there exceptions in your EP's? Were they not strong enough?
Did you stop yourself from talking to some men, but not others because they weren't a threat. At least you didn't think so at the time. I wonder if EP's are kind of like EN's. I can meet Skald's EN's "okay" and not be enough, or I can learn to meet them better than anyone else so he doesn't have the urge to have them met somewhere else. Are EP's the same? We can follow some of them and make exceptions or we can follow them with no exceptions creating a much stronger front.

For example:
I was going to physical therapy. My therapist went on vacation and another PT took her place for the week - a man. The first time I saw him, DD was with me. The second time I saw him, I was alone with him. Not only alone, but they always turn down the lights and play soft music, so here we are in a darkened room, he's rubbing my neck and doing the stretches making me feel good. While talking, he smiles a lot and tells jokes. The attention was nice, I admit. I hadn't thought much about this since he's a doctor/a professional, but now I know that I can't make that exception.

I consider EP's to be the boudaries. There are A's because of bad boundaries, so I need to make a concentrated effort to make those boundaries as high as possible. I've always had good boudaries, but now I just realize that they can be stronger. I've taken a hard look at myself and noticed the gaps that need to be filled in. It's not easy to look back and try to find my faults, but if I want to make this last a lifetime, that's something I need to do.

Posted By: KiwiJ Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 07:19 PM
drgnfly, in the year before my A, my very dearly loved father died and within 6 months my MIL died, then 6 months later my FIL died. It was a terrible year - we were grieving all year. My H went into a very, very deep depression. It was the first time in our marriage that I couldn't reach him and he didn't want to be reached. He couldn't really see how bad he was. Life became a round of getting up, going to work, then coming home to silence.

Of course, looking back I should have insisted he get treatment for his depression but I was in quite a bad way myself with grief.

One day, out of the blue, the old flame rang me at work. He knew where I worked because about 5 years before we'd bumped into each other outside my work. That is what I mean by having EPs, the thought of saying any more than "hello, fancy seeing you" never entered my head. Same old flame - no A.

A mutual friend of ours from years ago had died and he told me he was going to the funeral and asked if I wanted to come. I thought about it for a moment and said I would. I thought it would be good to catch up with people from year's ago and the friend who died had been a very good friend when we were young.

I told my H what had happened - he wasn't thrilled about the idea of me going with the old flame but there had never been any reason not to trust me and I trusted myself and my own boundaries.

At the funeral, as expected, I caught up with a lot of old friends and there was a lot of talk about our mutual past. The old flame and I spent a lot of time talking but it was all very general - family, work etc etc.

Then he drove me home. On the way home, talk became more personal - why hadn't I slept with him when we were young - why had I broken up with him when it was obvious he wanted to marry me. So, personal talk. Then he said let's stop for a drink. So we did, somewhere very close to home - out in public - all above board. More talk but nothing more.

My H said when he heard the car pull up finally at 8.00pm his first thought was "here's trouble". The weekend went by and I thought I'd never hear from old flame again - I just didn't think that was the way things would go. It didn't particularly concern me - I wasn't thinking along A lines.

On Monday morning I had an email first thing from him. He didn't know my email address but had worked out how our work emails were set up and just tried that. I was flattered that he'd gone to that trouble and, yes, I was pleased to hear from him. I agreed to meet him for lunch, just as friends.

That's how the A started and it finished 18 months later.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 07:36 PM
That is something that i suppose COULD happen to anyone.

But like i said before i would not have talked to the old flame to begin with other than to say hello, nor would i have gotten in a car with him (unless it was a group of people), or went anywhere with him especially not for a drink.

And i would not have answered his e-mail other than asking him to please not e-mail me again.

That is why for me anyway i feel that i have always had good boundaries in place that i would not cross, i just wouldn't.
Posted By: KiwiJ Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 07:46 PM
If any of that had happened the year before, that would have been my reaction. I admit it, after the year we'd had, the thought of meeting up with old friends was very enticing. The rush of excitement of "something" other than just work and home made me unaware of anything else.

I had NO idea about A's. I just didn't think I was wired that way. I'd have been just as happy if his wife had come along.

When he emailed, my first reaction was "oh sh**" (sorry, mods but it was). That was followed by "what harm can come of a lunch". As I said, I'd seen him 5 years before with no reaction whatsoever. It was "big deal" I've just seen old flame.

It was the combination of circumstances, it was naivity, it was being in a vulnerable position. It was making choices which I really hadn't thought through.
Posted By: Verve Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 07:57 PM
Jen, you give such wonderful insight. It really is invaluable. Do you think that most WS's kind of "fall" into the A instead of actively looking for one?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 08:19 PM
For me i went 3 years prior to my FWHs A where we barely spoke to one another because he was allowing someone to live in our home that i did not want to be there.

So i told him that if this person is going to be here you will have to spend your time with him because i do not like to be around him. He chose to spend his time with him intead of me. Therefore none of my ENs were being met on a daily basis and i had to face this drunken man who was leaching off of us everyday for that three years.

Still did not cross any boudaries, did not have the desire to cross any boundaries, and still would not cross any boundaries.

My feeling is that once you are married the ONLY man who should be in your life at all is your spouse (and of course other family members that are male). You should not talk to other men, you should not have lunch or drinks or anything else with any other man.

That way you would not ever be in a situation where anyone besides your spouse could meet those ENs.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Verve
Jen, you give such wonderful insight. It really is invaluable. Do you think that most WS's kind of "fall" into the A instead of actively looking for one?

I agree that it is nice to hear the WS side of things.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 08:25 PM
Jen is awesome! She has given me so much advice about Flick's mind and insights to all sorts of things wayward. And the best thing is no matter how crappy it is she is willing to share. I don't know I would be that good.

Thanks Jen!!!!!

{{{HUG}}}
Posted By: drgnfly Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 08:27 PM
Jen,

First of all, I want to let you know how terribly sorry I am for everything you and your H went through. I can't imagine how awful it was to lose your father and in-laws.

Thank you for replying to me. I can definitely see how your defenses would be down in that case. So what I'm hearing is along with everything else in your life making you vulnerable, you knew this guy and were comfortable with him, so you didn't feel the need to keep your boundaries as firm because you trusted yourself and him. Is that about right?

I could have easily ended up in a very similar story:

I had an old high school friend (male) ask to get together one time when he was in the area. At first, I had decided not to go if Skald didn't want to, but then Skald left me. The friend came up about a week after Skald left, and I decided to get out and go. It was me, him, his mom, his brothers, and another friend. I met them at our old high school to watch a football game and then we all went to a bar in our hometown.

While sitting at the table at the bar, he would try to put his hand on my back or brush my hand with his. I moved further away and turned to another conversation at the table. He also tried walking me to my car, but I avoided him. They even tried to get me to go out to their Mom's house for a bonfire, but thankfully I refused that right away. At least part of my brain was working that night.

He knew I was having problems at home, but when he found out that Skald and I were working on things, he never contacted me again. He always was afraid of Skald. smirk

I never should have put myself in that situation. I was trying to make Skald jealous and angry (which I did), but it was dangerous to me and our M. It could have easily turned out so different.

If I'd kept my EP's firm, I wouldn't have put myself in that dangerous place. If I hadn't been so devastated from Skald leaving me and then his confession about the A, I never would have considered going out alone. I trusted myself and I KNEW this guy, so I never saw anything happen. sigh....

This just reinforces my feeling to up my EP's. I need to make a more concentrated effort and there can be NO exceptions.

It's really not easy looking back and seeing all the things I should have done differently throughout our relationship. Shoulda, woulda, coulda... crazy At least I'm learning from our mistakes and making the needed changes now.

Again...Thank you so much for explaining your situation to me.

drgnfly
Posted By: drgnfly Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/24/09 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by KiwiJ
If any of that had happened the year before, that would have been my reaction. I admit it, after the year we'd had, the thought of meeting up with old friends was very enticing. The rush of excitement of "something" other than just work and home made me unaware of anything else.

I had NO idea about A's. I just didn't think I was wired that way. I'd have been just as happy if his wife had come along.

When he emailed, my first reaction was "oh sh**" (sorry, mods but it was). That was followed by "what harm can come of a lunch". As I said, I'd seen him 5 years before with no reaction whatsoever. It was "big deal" I've just seen old flame.

It was the combination of circumstances, it was naivity, it was being in a vulnerable position. It was making choices which I really hadn't thought through.

Wow...this is EXACTLY what I felt when this guy contacted me! *shaking head* I was so relieved to have something other than the pain to think about for just a few hours, that I jumped at the opportunity to go. I was grateful to all of them for making me laugh for a little while.

And I would have loved it if his wife had come along. I didn't get the A aspect of all this until after Skald and I got back together and I started reading here. Then it all clicked together, and I realized what I had stepped in to.
Posted By: KiwiJ Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/25/09 04:58 AM
Thanks Lil and drgnfly and you too, Still Crazy. My H is like you, he can't see him being wired for an A no matter what happens. We'd been through things before - when our son dropped out of school it was the most terrible thing. Seeing a bright boy throwing away his future nearly killed me. I had a breakdown but my H and I clung to each other. We knew we had each other. After a long marriage, lots happens. Good and bad. We'd always weathered it. We had each other.

That year when our parents died was different. We were both grieving, life had really reached an all time low. My H wouldn't reach for me and I wasn't in a place to reach for him. Losing my father was terrible. I adored him. Losing my inlaws was horrible but I was still grieving for my father. I just couldn't take it all in.

When I was in the middle of my A, my H was leaning very heavily for support on a woman friend of his. Even now, he refuses to see it as an EA but I'm convinced that's what it was.

Verve, you asked if most people "fall into A's". I think they do. I think thdfd are certain people who actively look for A's. it's part of their lifestyle, but I think they are in the minority. I don't really like the term "fall into", it seems to infer that it's beyond your control or not a choice and it IS a choice, no matter how you try to sugar coat it. I could have stepped back at any time, right from the first email but I chose not to.

Posted By: KiwiJ Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/25/09 05:00 AM
Please excuse "thdfd". It's meant to read "there". lol
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/25/09 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by KiwiJ
Thanks Lil and drgnfly and you too, Still Crazy. My H is like you, he can't see him being wired for an A no matter what happens. We'd been through things before - when our son dropped out of school it was the most terrible thing. Seeing a bright boy throwing away his future nearly killed me. I had a breakdown but my H and I clung to each other. We knew we had each other. After a long marriage, lots happens. Good and bad. We'd always weathered it. We had each other.

I know what you are saying here; we too have weathered many things in our 25 years together both good and bad and had always clung to each other. Life has many struggles that get in the way sometimes.

Originally Posted by KiwiJ
That year when our parents died was different. We were both grieving; life had really reached an all time low. My H wouldn't reach for me and I wasn't in a place to reach for him. Losing my father was terrible. I adored him. Losing my inlaws was horrible but I was still grieving for my father. I just couldn't take it all in.

I understand pain this as well and it is a horrible one and I am sorry for yours. I have lost both of my parents and both of my in-laws also although I will have to say not all in the same year although my H did lose his step dad and his grandfather (whom he was extremely close to) within a week of each other in 1995. His grandfather’s funeral was the same day I was having surgery for a hysterectomy and he was a mess not knowing where to be. I told him to just be with me until I came out of surgery and then go to the funeral. I still have a hard time with mother’s day and father’s day and my parents have been gone for a while.

Originally Posted by KiwiJ
When I was in the middle of my A, my H was leaning very heavily for support on a woman friend of his. Even now, he refuses to see it as an EA but I'm convinced that's what it was.

I would have to agree with you on this it sounds like an EA to me. And I would have to say that this is a boundary issue as well. IMHO once you are married you should not have “friends” of the opposite sex you should only have “couple” friends or same sex friends.

Originally Posted by KiwiJ
Verve, you asked if most people "fall into A's". I think they do. I think thdfd are certain people who actively look for A's. it's part of their lifestyle, but I think they are in the minority. I don't really like the term "fall into", it seems to infer that it's beyond your control or not a choice and it IS a choice, no matter how you try to sugar coat it. I could have stepped back at any time, right from the first email but I chose not to.

And once again I am not trying to knock you in any way but this is my point exactly. It was your “choice” to take the steps you took, not anything else. And it began the moment you accepted the invitation from him. My “choice” would be different than the one you made every single time. I would not accept the invitation.
Posted By: drgnfly Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/25/09 01:26 PM
Quote
would have to agree with you on this it sounds like an EA to me. And I would have to say that this is a boundary issue as well. IMHO once you are married you should not have “friends” of the opposite sex you should only have “couple” friends or same sex friends.


Dr. Harley says that A's can happen even by going out with couples. You might find yourself attracted to the man and start gravitating towards him in the conversations without even thinking about it.

I'm curious: During the whole time that your ex-nephew lived with you, you were NEVER alone in the house with him?
Posted By: drgnfly Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/25/09 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by Verve
Jen, you give such wonderful insight. It really is invaluable. Do you think that most WS's kind of "fall" into the A instead of actively looking for one?

Skald and I were talking about this the other night. We came up with this example:

Say a man and his wife go into the same restaurant very frequently and they usually have the same waitress. They both talk to the waitress and know her name. The man says a joke and makes her laugh (he's not intentionally doing this for the waitress - he made his wife laugh too), but say the waitress has been having a really hard time and this guy just keeps cheering her up every day. She starts to look forward to seeing him every day and over a long period of time she finds herself thinking of him ALL THE TIME. She thinks she's in love with him.

She might just leave him alone, or she might start doing little things to make him happy too thus adding her to his bank. Without ever intentionally doing anything, they now have positive balances in their accounts. He doesn't see anything wrong because she's just being nice. Then he stops in every once in a while without his wife, and there you go. "It just happened."
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/25/09 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by drgnfly
Quote
would have to agree with you on this it sounds like an EA to me. And I would have to say that this is a boundary issue as well. IMHO once you are married you should not have “friends” of the opposite sex you should only have “couple” friends or same sex friends.


Dr. Harley says that A's can happen even by going out with couples. You might find yourself attracted to the man and start gravitating towards him in the conversations without even thinking about it.

I'm curious: During the whole time that your ex-nephew lived with you, you were NEVER alone in the house with him?

Even though you are always together as a "couple" and you do not discuss personal things with the opposite sex member of the couple. I suppose it is possible.

And i was never alone in my house with the ENIL. He basically lived in our garage and knew i did not like the fact that he was there so he avoided me as well.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/25/09 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by drgnfly
Say a man and his wife go into the same restaurant very frequently and they usually have the same waitress. They both talk to the waitress and know her name. The man says a joke and makes her laugh (he's not intentionally doing this for the waitress - he made his wife laugh too), but say the waitress has been having a really hard time and this guy just keeps cheering her up every day. She starts to look forward to seeing him every day and over a long period of time she finds herself thinking of him ALL THE TIME. She thinks she's in love with him.

She might just leave him alone, or she might start doing little things to make him happy too thus adding her to his bank. Without ever intentionally doing anything, they now have positive balances in their accounts. He doesn't see anything wrong because she's just being nice. Then he stops in every once in a while without his wife, and there you go. "It just happened."

This is a big issue for me as my FWH does this kind of stuff ALL THE TIME although we do not frequest the same restaurants so we would not see the same waitress he does it anyway. It is my "friendly vs flirty" thing and i do not like it. There is no harm in being polite, but why do you have to "joke around" with someone that you do not even know.
Posted By: JoJo422 Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/25/09 03:01 PM
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This is a big issue for me as my FWH does this kind of stuff ALL THE TIME although we do not frequest the same restaurants so we would not see the same waitress he does it anyway. It is my "friendly vs flirty" thing and i do not like it. There is no harm in being polite, but why do you have to "joke around" with someone that you do not even know.


Still_Crazy,
I agree. I also have a problem with the "friendly vs flirty" thing. There is a difference and for some reason some people can't see it.
JoJo
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/25/09 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by JoJo422
Still_Crazy,
I agree. I also have a problem with the "friendly vs flirty" thing. There is a difference and for some reason some people can't see it.
JoJo

I agree JoJo and i for one don't understand why some can't see it either. I know for me and my FWH i always ask how he would like it if it was me doing the "joking around" and of course he says it would not bother him. But i wonder if it "would not bother him" is some sort of justification because if he said it would bother him if i did it then he would have to stop.

He will not know if it would bother him because i do not do it to him.
Posted By: drgnfly Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/26/09 06:59 PM
Lil,

Here's my list.

Extraordinary Precautions

 I will protect my husband at all times
 I will practice the MB principals as stated by Dr. Harley
 I will share all passwords, account info with my husband. Nothing is private – he has access to everything.
 I will share my private feelings, thoughts, and concerns with my husband and not hold anything back.
 I will share my schedule with my husband and discuss any changes with him.
 I will not discuss my personal issues with any man besides my husband unless he gives his consent and is present.
 I will not help/discuss another man’s problems unless my husband gives his consent and is present.
 I will not be alone with another man unless my husband approves.
 I will not go out with another man unless my husband is present.
 I will not strike up conversations with men I do not know.
 I will not have a health care provider (doctor, therapist, personal trainer) that is a man unless my husband is present or there is an emergency and I am need of immediate assistance.
 I will not participate in activities without my husband unless he approves enthusiastically.
 I will never have any secrets from my husband - unless it’s his birthday or Christmas present. laugh
 I will not let anybody walk over me – I will stand up for myself
 I will not accept anything but Openness & Honesty
 I will listen to my gut/instincts
 I will wake up each morning and make a concentrated effort to be happy
 I will look for the sunshine in every situation

These rules have no exceptions – they are applied equally.
Posted By: drgnfly Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 03/26/09 07:00 PM
Ugh...the bullets didn't work.

btw...have you noticed the new emoticons??

:twobyfour: - that's so awesome!!! clap
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 04/19/09 09:16 AM
Sorry DF, I only just noticed these. I have printed them out and will hopefully get mine done.

Thanx
Posted By: staytogether Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 04/19/09 09:05 PM
HAve just been discussing, with a friend, how easy it may be to slip into an A . Although she or her H haven't been there she can totally see where the vulnerabilities are in her M and I think she has gone home to look at closing some gaps.

I like your EPs drgnfly - hope you don't mind me using it as reference to start my own. Have emailed it to MrST too, I wonder whether he thinks he should have a list ( I hope he does).

Thank you
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 01/31/10 08:31 PM
bump
Posted By: HEARTBROKEN77 Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 02/03/10 08:16 AM
Does anyone have anymore examples of EP's? I believe I failed at setting boundaries in my marriage, which led to my wife's A. Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
Posted By: MovingForward2 Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 02/03/10 12:02 PM
Heartbroken, this is what my H and I worked on last week, his weakness protection plan, though I believe it's called EPs also. I don't know if it would help but you asked for more examples... so here it goes:

I will not contact OWs in any way.

If I see them I will immediately walk away and let my W know right away.

I will not talk to any other woman about my personal life i.e.: sex, marriage, etc.

I will not talk about sports or play sports with any other woman except for my W.

If any woman asks me if I'm happily married, I will always say yes.

If anyone asks me about my affair, I will always tell them the truth and that it was very hurtful to my wife and to myself, and that it will never happen again.

I will always tell my W right away if I have any kind of contact with any other woman.

If any other woman wants to talk to me, I will always make sure people are around. If I find myself in a situation where I am alone with a woman, I will get out of that situation immediately.

I will not take trips without my W again.

I will not cause my W any unhappiness.

I will POJA with my W on everything.

I will account for my whereabouts at all times.

I will spend at least 15 hours UA with my W every week.

I will do a session with Harley once every year for the remainder of our M.

I will let my W know right away if I feel I am unhappy or something is missing in our M.

I will not attend any [specific type] events without my W unless I am going with a family member.


Now that's a thought, should I develop one for myself too? I'll discuss that with my H...
Posted By: HEARTBROKEN77 Re: Have YOU written your EP's?? - 02/04/10 05:03 AM
That does help, thank you.
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