1. No previous adultery

2. Her adultery choice knaws her conscience and she has difficulty reconciling her behavior with her beliefs.

3. Physically suffers with a guilty conscience. Difficulty sleeping, eating, concentrating.

4. Has fallen head-over-heels "in love" with OM, which is often an old flame.

5. Has spiritual/religous beliefs she must ignore in order to "follow her heart".

6. Cries frequently but privately.

7. May turn to alcohol to numb her conscience.

8. Feels powerless and overwhelmed by her feelings of desire.

9. Hates herself.

10. Cannot look at her husband or others who trust her without feeling worse, so begins to avoid people who love her.

NOT the "run-of-the-mill" WW

1. Previous adulteries or cheated on boyfriends.

2. Barely recognizes her conscience.

3. Works out, feels good, sleeps like a baby.

4. Not "head-over-heels" in love, but loves the attention.

5. "Follow your heart" IS her compass in life.

6. Cries for an audience, especially when caught.

7. May drink, do drugs, but does them to heighten her sense of pleasure.

8. Feels powerful and in control.

9. Loves herself. Why not?

10. Can look people straight in the eye and lie her [censored] off. Then go to bed with OM(s), then come home and kiss her BH, her children, and have a good night sleep. No problem.

The mark of a good person is their sense of guilt when they know they are doing something wrong.

All good points, and I agree.

My EXWW had some run of the mill qualities, but for the most part fell into category 2.

I like the assesment, where'd you get it? People's Court?

Bwhaaaaaaaaa - YOU KNOW I was on People's Court, in the 80's.

this was me for the most part except OM was a co-worker I knew for several years.

Do you think this list could be applied to run-of-the-mill FWHs too?

That is just what i was about to post.

I'm not sure, but I don't think it would be exactly the same. Try to make one for WHs yourself. Or, we could work on it as a team.

I have been thinking about this "run-of-the-mill WW" list for awhile.

In my opinion, it's not an "all from one list" sort of thing, but more like what Cajun said ... which list has the most similarity TO A GIVEN SITUATION ... KWIM?

Beau Knows!!

Her adultery choice gnaws her conscience!

What are the implications for the marriage?

What makes the first kind of WW “run-of-the-mill”?

Is she run-of-the-mill because such WWs outnumber the other kind, and if so, how do we know that?

Is it that her adultery was “accidental” rather than a lifestyle choice?

Does her conscience make it easier for her to stop by herself?

Is it more likely that she will stop when the affair is discovered (or soon after), or less likely?

Is she more likely to respond to Plans A/B by stopping, or less?

Is she more likely to be a walk-away wife?

Is it more likely that she will go back to a particular OM? If a particular OM can be dealt with (using legal means!) does the marriage stand a good chance of recover using Harley methods? Is it likely that the “run of the mill” WW will not find a new OM, and quite likely that the other kind will?

Much of it did for the Wookie.

What do you think Sugar?

If the categorisation "run-of-the-mill" has anything to do with frequency, then I would guess that the types are directly reversed for men and women. I would guess that the routine adulterous H is a cake-eater - type 2 - and the less common one is type 1.

Actually, for me, this post is just a way of organizing my thoughts about how best to help the BH approach their WW.

I love getting all this feedback. It helps me organize my mind.

Well, Pep, I think it is still important to clarify what makes you describe type 1 as “run-of-the-mill”. That term suggests that they are nothing special and not extraordinary. We have seen their type many times and we can deal with them. The other type might, on the face of it, seem more like hopeless cases because they are not cut out for marriage. They seem certain to repeat the behaviour with anyone who provides flattery and attention.

I wonder, though, whether the first type is actually harder to deal with because they go some way towards falling “in love” before committing adultery. The fact that they alter their beliefs to justify their behaviour might make them more committed to OP. This first kind is at the extreme end of the continuum that Dr Harley describes, that starts at one end with the person who forms no attachment to the OP and can easily have one-night-stands, to the other end where the person leaves the marriage for the OP.

Perhaps I’m looking at this wrongly because either can be relatively easy to deal with, or hopeless. Perhaps what matters is the mix of characteristics.

Great juxtaposition list Pep. This helps explain some stuff.
Thanks!

Oh, I think that looking at the affair behaviour and all the cirumstances before giving advice is terribly important. I saw the thread that prompted you to start this one, Pep.

Me too. I was thinking today, while hanging out the washing in the garden, about starting a thread called "theory class". Its purpose would be to help me understand the many parts of Harley that I would like clarification on, and to discuss how to apply theory to hypothetical situations. Perhaps I don't need to start it anymore!

Interesting reply!!!! I think i may have to agree.

With what, SC, my confusion??!

Sugar, I find it works best for me if I can figure out what a person's strengths are (weakness too) and then approach the situation considering those things.

If you are asking me why I picked out the "run-of-the-mill" phrase, I suppose I did because that is the type of adulterous WW the Harley's plan seems to be most effective for.

If a woman (WW) has the "follow your heart" philosophy as her moral compass, and always has, I myself have a hard time helping her. In part, because we do not share common values, but also because her feelings cannot be trumped by other values.
You know what I mean?

I would bet dollars to donuts this type was once an OW. Sometimes I run across a poster that you can "hear" the entitlement in their posts and the childishness response to other posters suggestions. Most OW I have run across are 15 year old girls in a woman's body.

FF, "follow your heart" gets people into trouble while "follow your values" might not feel as good, but "following core values" is not the road to perdition. Following feelings can be.

Don't necessary believe that the "run-of-the-mil" WW cries, turns to alcohol, or has any physical signs of internal conflict. If anything I think is't just the opposite since it appears most WW are in exit As and are already emotionally divorced from the BH. I doubt H's FOW had any guilt at all. H was her exit A. I think a bigger distinction is if the WS is a cake eater vs a WAS.

Interesting.

However, I prefer to use this thread to try and consider the best way to help a WW here on MB - and not use this thread to figure out what the OW is doing and why. OW's were not my concern when I began this thread. I don't try to help OWs.

Thanks.

You could be your head against a wall bloody and still not help the "follow your heart" type.

What worked for me as your "run of the mill" WW?

Although I thought I "loved" OM, I longed for my H's attention. I couldn't look myself in the mirror, in fact still couldn't after the A ended UNTIL my H was finally told the truth.

Since my H did not know about the A, what helped me was a combination of

1. Dr. Laura
2. Listening to Christian radio
3. A book I picked up at our neighbors house while H and them studied the Bible. It was called "Running the Red Lights". No idea the author. I also picked up a book called "His Needs/Her Needs" at their house. H and I read that one together.
4. Listening peripherally to their Bible Study. Watching my neighbor behavior toward her H. (respect, submission to his leadership etc)

I think that these considerations are vital.

Ah, but that's what I'm questioning. That is the type of adulterous WW that the Harley plan seems to me to be designed for, but its effectiveness seems to be weak with a WW who has completely altered her values. I suppose I'm agreeing with the view often expressed by BHs here, that WWs are a tougher animal to kill than WHs.

Type 1 shifts her values to engage in the adultery. If she is discovered before this shift has gone too far she can be won back to the marriage. If discovery comes after a long time, and especially if OM is prepared to take her on, she has altered her values so far as to no longer see her marriage as legitimate. Recovery is then almost impossible. How does that sound?

Yes I think I do, but perhaps her values can be trumped by bitter experience.

Type 2 gets used over and over again. Men are only too happy to provide her with flattery, attention and even a few gifts. None, however, is prepared to take her on, and especially not if they have a loving, self-respecting W at home, who has not lowered her dignity and neglected her children the way his AP has. She eventually learns that she disrepects herself by her own behaviour and she stops. How does that sound?

Of course, I'm describing my H's OW in the second case!

Type I is also more prone to the EA. It sums up my husband pretty well. AP was an old girlfriend and it wasn't physical (not that it hurt any one damn bit less).

Did the fact that it was his old girlfriend make the affair easier or harder to break? Did he have deep feelings for her?

PS: are we officially talking about men too, now?

Me personally i think the difference between WWs and WHs are simply just a difference in men and women regarding relationships in general.

My guess would be that 99% of WWs had already "left the marriage" prior to their As, because most women have to be EMOTIONALLY invovled in a relationship prior to being PHYSICAL.

Most men start out with the PHYSICAL aspect and then it turns into something EMOTIONAL.

That is IMHO of course.

Just that there is more to all of this than meets the eye (which is what i took from your post) and that we are both confused i guess .

I tend to agree with this as well.

I do not agree, i think it is in the people not their gender.

Me too. Why is that I wonder aloud.

Can I go with both versions of WW suck?

#1's problem is she is weak, but the biggest plus is that she does struggle with the wrong she is doing.

#2's problem is she is an emotionally defective person, but the biggest plus is that she may be strong enough to put her foot down and break the cycle if she wants better for herself.

Maybe the WW starts out like #1 and then turns into #2 (pun intended) gets arrogant thinking she's da bomb, believes she has OM wrapped around her finger and laughs at her BH and BW for either being clueless or doormats.

My head hurts. lol

Agreed. FOW's H turned her into road kill.

Of course they both suck ! But don't you think that MBers trying to reach the "mill" WW could approach appealing to her core values while that approach would do NOTHING to impact a "non-mill" WW??

I think the "non-mill" WW needs to feel tremendous and impressive consequences before she'd consider making any changes in her lifestyle.

LOL (Here , take a tylenol for your headache)

I think it made it harder. It started weirdly and ended weirdly but it really did end.

I agree but then I think about if she is hopelessly weak and can't even keep NC...

I dunno. Trying to make sense of a wayward mind is like playing PONG, back and forth, back and forth.

I would not look at your list as describing two different WW's, but more like the same individual, at different stages. The first list, the WW after the initial foray into infidelity. The second list, the same WW after a period of time. I also think there are characteristics of WW's that are unique to stages that would come before and after what you have listed.

Assuming we are ignoring the pure sociopaths that are out there, I sometimes think it is better to define the WW in terms of "where" they are in their A. As an example, to me, your second list describes the WW at the peak of their fantasy.

I suppose one could theorize that WW's go through many stages and some stages are harder for the BH to deal with than others. In some stages the WW is "run of the mill" where in others, they are not.

Like this ~~~> :crosseyedcrazy:

I deal with waywards in real life. Men and women, but more women than men. (I've done hundreds of pap/STD exams every year for 29 years) And I pay attention to what women say and how they say things. There is no sense to nonsense, but there is understanding what motivates certain types of people. That's why people are so interesting, they are motivated on several planes at once. Some motives are primative, and some are more elevated and lofty. And that conflict in values and desires is where MBers can put a crowbar to apply pressure in the right place.

Boy, the NOT-so-run-of-the-mill WW is the OW in my situation TO A TEE!! In fact, with this description alone, someone could pick her out of a lineup!

I've thought about this too. A continuum process. This theory appeals to me, however, it does not match my observations.

rprynne - can you think of a few examples of the continuum theory? Past WW's from this forum perhaps? I'd like to explore that a little bit more.

(like I said, this theory is attractive to me, but I don't recall seeing any examples on MB)

Agreed. And I agree with rprynne and both SCs and everyone else. So there lol

I don't think this can be true: characteristic 1 of type 2 is "Previous adulteries or cheated on boyfriends." Type 1 surely goes deeper into her affair with ONE MAN, rather than having many affairs. This cannot be the same person on a continuum.

Characteristic 4 is "Not "head-over-heels" in love, but loves the attention." However, surely Type 1 falls deeper "in love" with this one man as the affair progresses; she does not love him less with time. So again, there is no contiuum.

I think can we cannot ignore the sociopaths, because they are type 2. People who do not recognise normal moral values and do not care whether they breech them or not are sociopaths. People who are married (to people who have normal marriage values, not to swingers or polygamists) and yet see nothing wrong with having sex with other people, ARE sociopaths. I agree with Pep that it would be hard, and perhaps impossible, to appeal to the moral values of a spouse who thinks it okay to tom around while married.


I don't agree that the WW at the peak of her fantasy with OM, whom she by then "loves", displays the charactistic "Not "head-over-heels" in love, but loves the attention." I think she alters her moral values and mentally leaves the marriage when she is at the peak of her fantasy.

Sorry Pep, I only do abstracts

Ok, in all seriousness, I would imagine it is hard to see pure examples of this because people are notoriously bad witnesses. Their current state influences their observations of previous states. But I do see this continuem in some of Mrs. W's posts. (Specifically around the time Mr. W decided it was over). I'm not sure of her name, but I think the thread on inside the wayward mind also gives some insight on this. Essentially, one can group many of those steps into stages or states of minds that would describe the WW and indicate certain behaviors.

For me, their is likely an unhappy/trigger stage, (i'm unhappy or an old flame e-mailed me), a exploratory/experiment stage (i'm going to sign up on a dating site and see what happens), an evaluation stage (how am I feeling - start/stop/continue/escalate?), an execution stage (I've made my choice), and a review stage (how'd it work out).

Many times, I think this comes down to situational vs. dispositional attributes to behavior. (The two best known experiments on this are the Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram (I think) experiment). Most people are appalled by the concept of situational attributes to behavior, but I tend to think it gets proven over and over IRL.

I consider myself a pretty typical WW based on this list:

1. No previous adultery
Never, never crossed my mind that I would ever have an affair.

2. Her adultery choice knaws her conscience and she has difficulty reconciling her behavior with her beliefs.
I began therapy, medication for depression, journaling, just trying to make sense of what was happening, of what I was doing to myself

3. Physically suffers with a guilty conscience. Difficulty sleeping, eating, concentrating.
I literally developed wounds on my legs that would not heal, and exacerbation of a manageable skin condition, but it went wild during my A.

4. Has fallen head-over-heels "in love" with OM, which is often an old flame.
First love, soul mate, the man I should have always been with

5. Has spiritual/religous beliefs she must ignore in order to "follow her heart".
I talked to a preacher and multiple therapists, looking for guidance. Oddly, the preacher told me that my marriage had been dead for a long time and my plan to leave my H was OK (and yes, he knew about the EA)

6. Cries frequently but privately.
Yes, mowing the lawn was time for me to have a good cry, plus in the shower and while kids were napping

7. May turn to alcohol to numb her conscience.
I managed to stay sober during the A, but did use antidepressants and antipsychotics prescribed by a MD

8. Feels powerless and overwhelmed by her feelings of desire.
It was just mad, mad, obsession

9. Hates herself.
Unbelievable self-loathing

10. Cannot look at her husband or others who trust her without feeling worse, so begins to avoid people who love her.
I may be a little atypical here. My BH knew every step of the EA, first contact, knew of daily contact, knew of first meeting. He knew when I tried to break it off and he knew when contact started back up. And, I must be surrounded by morally corrupt people, but everyone who knew about, seemed happy that I was finally leaving the marriage. I guess they were just trying to be supportive, but I wish they had warned me about the spiritual bottom that was heading my way

I looked at the list as a whole instead of line item by line item. I think the over riding theme on the list is around guilt and conscience.

While many think dealing with guilt is matter of one's morals, I tend to think more often it is a matter of consideration. Meaning if you don't think about it, it doesn't bother you.

It's this "consideration" of guilt that I see change in a FWS that suggests this list describes one WW at different times. As many will say I knew it was wrong, but I did not care.

I don't understand this. There are TWO lists. The characteristics of the WW on the first are the opposite of the characteristics of the WW on the second. The first list shows a WW with a conscience and the second, one without. They are opposites. How can they be on a continuum?

I would disagree. See my comment on situational attributes to behaviors. Which in a nutshell means non sociopaths can behave like socipaths in certain situations.

I think you are right to a DEGREE, but she is describing a starting point, not a way station. I read Type 11 and I clearly see my own father, a serial cheater who was married and divorced 8 times. He was not a sociopath, but he had killed his conscience at a young age and simply "followed his heart." He had no values whatsoever, other than do whatever feels good.

He did not recognize any system of right and wrong. The MB program would have been worthless with my father. Exposure would have had no effect, because he had no shame. He would never have done POJA because his middle name was FREE LOADER. He only did what felt good at the time and everyone else could go to hell.

This is very interesting and makes me wonder how effective MB can be with someone who does not know right from wrong. And I do wonder sometimes if my dad wasn't mentally ill.

BTW, exposure would have been a POWERFUL tool against my adultery.

Not necessarily true. I did "love" OM less over time as my eyes were opened to his true character and the disaster I was making of my life (not to mention my children's lives)

I believe a WW who has a ONS may initially exhibit a majority (not all) of the behaviors on the first list. Were she to continue the contact with the AP and continue to escalate the A, over time she would start to exhibit a majority of the behaviors on the second list. Opposites exist on a contiuem, just they exist on opposit ends.

WHICH is WHY I choose to fight for my marriage.....

FWIW, the "run-of-the-mill" applied to both my WH and COW......except that they were not former flames...

the absolute guilt and shame on his face EVERY time he came around was crushing to watch.....

I only know that it also applies to COW because of her emails......
while I would rather her be the second one, because that one seem more callous and pathetic, its not. Between her emails on the guilt, them going to he77 for this, and what her H told me, it applies....


not2fun

Surely someone who has "no values whatsoever...did not recognise any system of right or wrong...had no shame..someone who does not know right from wrong" is a sociopath?

Have I misunderstood the meaning of "sociopath"?

No time to look it up now; got to get the supper on! Someone look it up for me, please!

FF,

I am not sure that I realized you were a WW and a BW? Could you give me a quick time line of the A's. I struggle with forgiving myself and is this my karma and this is really all my fault and would love to have someone to bounce stuff off of.

Not specific to your post, but I use sociopath as a catch all term for any number of mental disorders. I'm no expert, but I believe not knowing right from wrong is asocial personality disorder, and yes, I don't think MB works for people with mental disorders.

Sorry but I consider myself (the former myself) being on the first list. My A lasted the predictable two years. I disagree about your continuem theory. OW in my case fits precisely into list two. She cheated on her first H as an exit affair and leaving 3 small children behind. Then D's H number 2 after a short time. Then seeks out her "true soul mate", my H, in this continuing cycle of ME ME ME ME.

I'd reverse the two. I think number 2 is more common. Tons of personality disordered among the WSs.

The lists are basically starting points, I thought. Sure, those on Type 1 will develop Type 11 characteristics as they become intoxicated on the affair, but that is not their natural normal state, but a temporary state.

I read rprynne's points more carefully, and I can now see what he means. I read Mel's point, and I agree with her about the difference between the basic character, in which pleasing oneself is the normal way of operating, and the temporary state of mind during an affair, when "me first" also applies.

I can see, though, that Pep did not describes these as continuous behaviours and I agree with her also, so now I'm confused and need to rest.

No, he wasn't a sociopath. Sociopaths have no empathy. He did have some empathy. He just just did not know right from wrong.

But why wouldn't it be a matter of morals then? I have been on both sides of this and I will tell you it very much is a matter of morals. VERY MUCH. The difference is if I am willing to KILL THE CONSCIENCE or not. Today I am not willing. I allow the conscience to BREATHE and THRIVE because I love morality and justice.

Not so in my wayward days. The conscience was "compartmentalized" and SMOTHERED. But a person can only compartmentalize to a degree. The truth starts squeeking out around the edges and becomes problematic. Drinking massive amounts of alcohol often didn't help.

((( Jean36 )))

This is interesting Pep and I think you are really onto something. For the record I'm the run of the mill (but I think you already know that - you've described me to a T). I don't think the two cross over, I think there are definitely two different sorts of WW. I see it myself here and find it very hard to help the second sort because I don't really understand them. I think the "run of the mills" find their way to MB and we see them here as posters, the "others" are described here by their BHs.

The others find their way "elsewhere".


1. No previous adultery
correct

2. Her adultery choice gnaws her conscience and she has difficulty reconciling her behavior with her beliefs.
Definitely - the result was anxiety attacks and a change in the way I reacted with everyone. When you go against your core beliefs something gives and it's not pretty.

3. Physically suffers with a guilty conscience. Difficulty sleeping, eating, concentrating.
I nearly lost my job through inattention to what I was doing. I couldn't sleep and lost so much weight from not eating that people thought I was seriously ill

4. Has fallen head-over-heels "in love" with OM, which is often an old flame.
Yes, on all counts

5. Has spiritual/religous beliefs she must ignore in order to "follow her heart".
Yes.

6. Cries frequently but privately.
Constantly in the ladies' bathroom at work, crying. Crying in the shower so the water would mask it.

7. May turn to alcohol to numb her conscience.
Started drinking the minute I got home and drank till I could stagger up to bed

8. Feels powerless and overwhelmed by her feelings of desire.
Yep - I thought it was all beyond my control.

9. Hates herself.
I couldn't believe the hard callous person I'd become.

10. Cannot look at her husband or others who trust her without feeling worse, so begins to avoid people who love her.
See above. Drank until I felt I could look at anyone. Avoided contact with family and friends as much as possible.

I agree that this type is more likely to be able to reconnect with their spouse and recover their marriage but I also agree that the emotional connection with the OP is difficult for the BH to overcome. This type goes through bad withdrawals and is of the "life is like living a novel" personality.

ITA with this and I always have.

I have always attributed being an OW to IMMATURITY and SELFISHNESS.

Sounds like a 15-year-old girl, doesn't it?

When I get the sense that a WW posting here falls mostly on this list, it is a pleasure to try and help her. Even if I fail, it's still a pleasure.

Jen is correct, the other type generally do not land here on MB asking for help (although it has happened). However, many BH of such women DO land here .... and it is a conundrum for me, not knowing what to say to him that might help his WW become a loving faithful wife..

Furthermore, I do not think list #2 necessarily describes a sociopath. I think 2Long's WW is an example of a woman who had characteristics from both lists, but mostly from list #2 (I think, but I could be wrong) and I doubt she is a sociopath.

What about Zen's wife?

If someone has these "qualities", I would say they are a sociopath.

Isn't this pretty much the definition of a sociopath?

I say it is the definition of a politician ! :MrEEk:

Ok, or that.

*snort*

This is a really interesting discussion. I would like to see a "WH" version.

I would just point out that when fog is swirling around thick enough to block vision, a mostly Type 1 will look, sound and act lik a mostly Type 2. When they hide behind all that lovely fog, the distinction between right and wrong becomes very, very difficult for them to make, and they believe their own nonsense.

So the question becomes, "Did this person ever have a working conscience?" "Can it be found again?"

Out of this whole discussion, this point makes the most sense to me.

I keep thinking back to the stupid email OW sent me the day I exposed. It seemed like a little bit of both of the Type I and Type II WWs.

<Though she isn't married, so wasn't really a WW...just an OW. But alot of the characteristics still apply.>

“The second list, the same WW after a period of time.”

When I read the first post, I resisted considering the above quote. Of course, I feel like I am an example of the number 1 description, but for the sake of “research” (lol), I decided to see if any of the number 2 list could describe me also (during the A and/or afterwards). What scares me is that if I’m totally honest with myself, I can see that there were times during the A when some of the items on the second list fit me, too.

So, to me, it seems like the lists at least overlap, and it would be next to impossible to really determine which list completely fits a WW poster or spouse of a poster, although I see your point(s), Pep and rpynne.

Hi, Chrysalis -

"Did this person ever have a working conscience?" "Can it be found again?"

Yes, and yes - unless the person is a sociopath?

Rose,
Most BSs at least entertain the question that their WS may have been a very clever sociopath all along. The insanity really is that great as it appears to the BS.

This is from an ANCIENT thread which I was on. (Do you know how totally weird it is going back to first posts? I don't even recognise that person - me) It describes an OM, so I guess it also describes the WH. I found it very true when I first read it. It seems to fit here.

"What the OM wants:

-They want the A to stay w/in bounds

-They thrive on the diversion, the excitement of the illicit, forbidden sex. the variety.

-Some get relief from home. May be having M issues. May have a W that ignores him for kids, work, etc.

-Able to reveal themselves emotionally.

- Doesn't want the R to get serious!!

-He may say "I love you" but he still isn't committing to anything

-Men regard an A as an addition to marriage not as possible replacement

-Most men let the married women know about the restrictions of the R. "I'd never divorce my wife because of the kids." That is the number 1 excuse the OM uses

-The woman's emotional investment flatters the OM but causes discomfort

- Married women are unlikely to end the undiscovered A. It's usually the OM."

"Most BSs at least entertain the question that their WS may have been a very clever sociopath all along"

I know - I remember my H saying something similar to me more than once in those first few weeks after d-day.

My H has had a couple of serious EAs, but I never thought he was a sociopath, though. Narcissistic, maybe. I mostly thought he was mean and dumb for not admitting or realizing how his behavior affected me and the kids.

I never felt like I had been a closet sociopath all along. Maybe I didn't realize or admit what I was capable of doing, but I don't think I was purposely hiding my "real" self, or pretending to be someone else. I was just as shocked as anyone else by what I was capable of doing.

Hi KiwiJ-

Good list, but I wonder if it all boils down to:

OM's want sex on the side!

Except, now that I think about it, my H's EAs were clearly about wanting an emotional attachment and admiration, which fits with your list, I think (I can't see the list at the moment while I'm replying).

My H has a pretty strong moral core which is probably why he found himself entangled in an EA vs a PA. He had plenty of opportunity for the EA to turn PA--she would have flown to his city, or met him in a 3rd city, booked the hotel room, etc. etc. Offered to get him a secret phone.

I didn't understand how he could do what he did (still don't--I was not happy in our marriage either but I didn't get sucked into an EA) but I think if she hadn't been an old girlfriend, he wouldn't have done it. For some reason, he allowed her to contact him every so often throughout the years after their breakup and made it worse by keeping their 1-2x/year conversations a secret from me. When we were happy and our marriage was healthy, it probably wasn't an issue. The conversations were all 'how are you, how old are your kids' variety. What set it off was seeing her at a HS reunion, our marriage was in the toilet, I had emotionally withdrawn from our relationship and she just pushed every button he had and fanned the spark into a flame.

If he didn't have that moral compass, I think he would have found himself in bed with her.

When I first read the title, I thought I should stay away. The way some threads have been going, I wasn't sure where this was going to go. It's an interesting discussion. Thank you for starting it, Pep, and thank you everyone for keeping it constructive. I'm learning...

According to http://dictionary.reference.com, sociopath means:

–noun Psychiatry. a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

I am like #1, except for #1 and #4. Interesting that KiwiJ's descriptions in the other 8 could be my own.

1. No previous adultery
Incorrect. I cheated on my BF when we were living together, 2.5 years before we married. Technically not adultery to some, but it is 100% betrayal to most and to me.

2. Her adultery choice gnaws her conscience and she has difficulty reconciling her behavior with her beliefs.
Correct. 'How could I? Because H hates me. But I'm committed to H? But OM loves me. But what about the BW? But OM doesn't care about BW so why should I?'

3. Physically suffers with a guilty conscience. Difficulty sleeping, eating, concentrating.
My first ever anxiety attack (scared the crap out of me), days of stomach pain where I laid in bed, first time EVER in my life I've lost weight due to stress. Family and friends were worried. I lost lots of hair.

4. Has fallen head-over-heels "in love" with OM, which is often an old flame.
Totally immersed in my "true love" who was a co-worker and good friend for over 5 years. (Hurts just typing that.)

5. Has spiritual/religous beliefs she must ignore in order to "follow her heart".
I'd say prayers and just kind of gloss over the whole infidelity thing while talking to God. Wouldn't even ask for help because then I'd have to admit my sin. Like God didn't know it?

6. Cries frequently but privately.
Everywhere. Grocery store, car (a lot), bedroom, at my desk, unloading dishwasher, in church, in the shower (apparently a popular place), while working out, alone on the couch at all hours of the morning...

7. May turn to alcohol to numb her conscience.
Heck ya.

8. Feels powerless and overwhelmed by her feelings of desire.
Completely out of control. My life revolved around whatever FOM felt like giving to me that day and whatever I could keep from H that day.

9. Hates herself.
To the core. Still not sure how much I like me.

10. Cannot look at her husband or others who trust her without feeling worse, so begins to avoid people who love her.
I crawled way underground. I still don't socialize with my GFs like I used to because I pulled so far away from everyone due to shame.

KiwiJ -- It is scarey how word-for-word and spot-on your list of how the OM feels and treats the WW matches my FOM. It actually triggered me reading it and I'm tearing up again, because it put into words what I've come to know in my heart, but have never had to stare at -- right in my face... Your OM description is like the official manual my FOM was following during the affair, in perfect order. It disgusts me how I didn't see it -- how little the OM thought of me while filling my head with lies and how little I thought of myself. I don't know if it would have done any good while I was in the throes of it all, but I wish I would have seen this list of OM characteristics a year ago. I wish I would have pulled my head out of my backside and run to my H back then.

Hindsight is truly 20/20.

Thanks again, ladies, for the open and honest discussion.

My FWW cheated on me prior to us getting M'd. Does that count?



I never got the impression that it "knawed at her conscience". More like she justified what she was doing because she was tired doing things for other people and she wanted to do something that felt good for herself instead.



I noticed none of the above.



Last OM was a co-worker that started working with her about a year before the A started.



I thought that my FWW was more "spiritual" and "religous" than I was. Post-A, she told me differently. And her explanation of how the A happened was not suggestive of someone "following her heart", but more of someone engaging in something because it felt good.



If she did that, I rarely saw it.



Nope.



Concerning feeling "powerless", I never got that impression from her during her A. Just the opposite in fact. She appeared to be much more sure of herself than usual. More confident. As for her being "overwhelmed by feelings of desire", I can only deduce that some of the things she chose to do with the OM (sex at the office with the OM, sex at home with the OM while I was at the office, the other places she chose to do it) do suggest that at times she was "overwhelmed". I think generally though that wasn't the case - otherwise sex with the OM during their A would have occured a lot more often.



Never got that impression from my FWW.



Never got that impression either. Nothing noticeable changed in our interaction that would suggest she was avoiding me because she was feeling worse.

BTW - I looked over the Type II list and found that much of them could not describe my FWW either. I think she's somewhere between the two.

Yes, indeed.

You might be interested to know that I think a lot of this has to do with brain function. The neurotransmitters that stimulate the pleasure/emotion/bonding parts of the brain are probably overwhelmed and flooded during adultery. And when the effect of those neuro chemicals wears off, that's when the despair and the cravings kick in. Your rational mind is not in control.

I'd love to see a PET scan of a brain during adultery and compare that to a brain during drug addiction. The HIGH and the CRASH are probably very similar.

And there is a difference between male and female brains. (and I'm NOT refering to size, so don't even go there)

I'm sorry I don't have a PET scan to share, but I do have a little neurotransmitter experience that you may find interesting.

During the long distance EA portion of my A, I was in therapy and seeing a psychiatrist. I started on regular antidepressants. Prior to finding "first love" OM, I was suffering from some post partum depression and then 9/11 sent me into a tail spin.

So after the EA started, the OCD kicked in and the obsessive thinking was out of control. I was started on antipsychotics, two different ones were tried. From my understanding, they were meant to control dopamine surges.

Something I recall from my journaling at the time. While I was taking the antipsychotics, my obsessive thinking about OM (who was still a long distance EA) slowed down considerably.

I recall writing that since the antipsychotics were keeping thoughts of OM away, it must mean that he is psychotic!

Intesesting info regarding sociopathy from Wiki:

Sociopathy:

When selecting "Antisocial personality disorder", you will find this:



I have bolded what I believe are common to most WS's in affairs. Deceitfulness and lying are the backbone to adultery. That a wayward risks their children and family is blatant disregard for themselves and others. And I believe the last statement about rationalizing hurt and mistreatment of another describes the wayward fog pretty well.

In addition to these common features, many WS's exhibit the others as well. For example, my WstbxH certainly exhibited impulsivity and failure to plan ahead, irritability and aggressiveness (not to the extent of physical threat but increased rages any time I didn't agree to go along with his plan to boot me out and bring her in), and consistant irresponsibility with respect to financial obligations. I'm sure other BS's here can see additional traits in their WS's.

Now, he certainly wasn't sociopathic before the A and never exhibited any one of these diagnostic criteria before. So what happened?

Looking at it clinically like this reinforces my belief that adultery is due some type of mental disease that can be "picked up" or "developed" over time. This along with the spooky similarities between everyone's stories about the behavior of their WS's.

I do remember hearing something on the radio once about sociopaths, that they may be more prevalent that previously thought (Wiki says 3% of men, 1% of women) but that a number of them are more functional sociopaths. Depending on a number of variables (education, socioeconomic status etc), a sociopath can actually be very successful in life without ever being "caught". Though their behavior is not affected by any conscience or morals, avoiding negative consequences and/or achieving positive rewards will motivate them. The show suggested that may successful businessmen and politians actually have undiagnosed antisocial personality disorder and that their lack of conscience contributes to this success. I wish I had a link for this in case I completely misinterpreted it or my memory has been skewed, but it certainly seems plausable.

Interesting that you mention that. Although H's EA didn't happen until 2005, I always mark 9/11 as the beginning of the downward spiral of our marriage. It sent him into a severe depression. Then he got pneumonia--which I'm convinced also had something to do with being run down and depressed from 9/11. In early 2002, he lost his job.

So Pep,

My superficial impression(without going back and counting properly) is that most WWs spoken about on this thread fit your "run-of-the-mill" classification. However, some are not easy to place, and there is some agreement with rprynne's "continuum" observations. Rose55 saw herself on both lists at different times:

I think I must agree with the theory of overlap or continuum. Whilst the lack of consideration for others, justifying one's own actions and referring to an usual value system is probably mandatory for serial cheaters and gourmet cake-eaters, it also a mindset that non-serial, non-promiscuous WSs must develop to some degree during the affair. Even when they develop boils and warts (or whatever), the affair must make them happy in some way, so this agony cannot be permanent. Also, they do succeed in appearing to be contented to the H, some if not all of the time. They are able to text the words "I love you" to OM and then go out for their wedding anniversary dinner the same evening, having given H a card with the same words written on it - and perhaps be sexually active that night. There must be some degree of compartmentalising in order for that to happen.

Do you still feel that there might be two different types of WW? If so, how would you tailor the advice you would give to BHs?

Compartmentalizing is the ONLY way a somewhat decent person (normally) could live a double life. I don't believe I was/am capable of the absolute cruelty of the "in your face" affair. I was deeply ashamed of what I was doing but at the same time getting EN's met by OM felt good. It took me quite a while for the guilt and shame to outweigh the "positives" of the A.

I actually think there are more than 2 types ! The 3rd type is a woman with a bonafide life long mental illness. The 4th type is an addict.

Myself, I do find looking at the lists I made up yesterday very helpful. The more important question is #1 on each list. Would you agree?

I do agree (although I think that more discussion here can easily sway me!). Perhaps the only relevant distinction is between WWs whose adultery is out of character and those who for whom it is, or has become, normal.

Do you think that these "number 1" characteristics, if you could be sure about them, would affect your advice?

I don't think so, I know so. It's one of the first questions I ask.

YES !

This is practically an ADVERTISEMENT for why exposure works for type 1 WWs.

Increase the negative as much as possible.

I am just observing that we often cite a changing of the WW's value system (their morals) as an enabler to an A. If that were the case, then they would feel no guilt about the A.

Since many FWW's claim they felt guilty the whole time, yet continued to the have an A, I'm theorizing that at least for some, their value system did not change, they simply chose to not think about what they were doing (which reduced/removed the guilt).

If you are saying that choosing to not think about what you are doing is an immorral act, I won't argue with you about that.

Yes. I think it is huge evidence that the A was not an abherration of character, but status quo.


I would also argue that it is the best course of action for the "type 2". Your last sentence I what I think most BH's miss. For whatever reason, they assume that the way to entice the WW back is increase the positive in the M. To proove they are the better man. It seldom works. The BH can't bring themselves up to the fantasy level, but you can bring the A down to the real life level.

Yes! For me, if my H had truly not listened to my claims that we were "just friends" and had comes across as a strong male, the leader of our home and really taken the reigns out of my hands I am certain the A would have ended much sooner and with his self respect intact. I can see looking back that I had very little respect for my H back then (and obviously for myself). In fact when my H saw what I had done to our finances during that time (I was very careless about our bills during my A), he really did "man up" and my respect for him began to return. I hope this makes sense, I am in the midst of PMS right now.

Hi faithful follower –

“if my H had truly not listened to my claims that we were "just friends” and had comes across as a strong male, the leader of our home and really taken the reigns out of my hands I am certain the A would have ended much sooner and with his self respect intact.”

Do you mean before or after he found out about your A?

Do you believe your H has to be responsible for (or control) everything you do? I’m not sure I understand what you mean. It seems to me that the A can’t really stop (NC, getting through withdrawal) until the WS takes control of her/his behavior. I can see that the BS can take steps to squelch the A (exposure, “bringing the A down to real life level”), but in the end, the WS is the only one who can make the WS stop.

Lol. I’m not sure my post makes sense either...

Rose

I don't think it is a mental disease.

Freud called it the id, ego and super ego. Some call it the child, parent, and adult. Others call it the conscious, sub-conscious and pre-conscious. Harley uses giver and taker. Some call it the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other.

Whatever its called, all people have an element of themselves that seeks to feel good regardless of consequences. They also have an element of themselves that seeks to always be moral. Finally, they have an element that negotiates the conflicts between the two. When this third element is no longer "operating", (or siding with the first one too often), irresponsible behavior occurs.

I think this is rarely a disease state. It is a situational state.

I think that really troubles a lot of people.

I'm so happy you are contributing to this thread.

Before, cuz he didn't officially "know" about the A until 8 years later.

No, I don't mean control at all. What I mean is I really didn't think he cared about me, our M or anything else. I falsly thought he was aware of my A but didn't care. Some of this thinking was probably used to "justify" what I was doing but the longer he bought into my excuses the more I believed it to be true. Later when he found our finances is such a mess he really stepped up. He took my credit cards away (rightfully so) and took over the bills. He got us out of the mess I made. My respect for him grew. He was beginning to look like a man to me and not just a room mate. During this time we got pregnant with our youngest DS. H was so amazingly strong and encouraging during a really tough birth. I fell head over heels in love with him.

You see I needed someone strong, not someone that let me do whatever I wanted.

As for this making it easier to end the A? I don't mean my BH was responsible for my actions, I meant that the stick would have been more effective than the carrot.

FF-

OIC!

“if my H had truly not listened to my claims that we were "just friends” and had comes across as a strong male, the leader of our home and really taken the reigns out of my hands I am certain the A would have ended much sooner and with his self respect intact.”

I was just thinking that it makes sense he wouldn't have done those things before knowing about your A, because he wouldn't have had a reason not to trust you.

I understand what you're saying about thinking he knew about the A and just didn't care. I convinced myself of things like that during my A, too.

"You see I needed someone strong, not someone that let me do whatever I wanted."

I think what you're saying is that you wish he wouldn't have accepted your independent behavior. As an aside, though, why would letting a wife do whatever she wants to do (within reason - not have an A, of course) mean a H is not strong?

Rose

My FWH and I read through this thread and have found it very interesting. Usually, I don't ask him to read particular threads unless there is something I think might be pertinent to us. In this case, we both identified the OW as more of a "not run of the mill WW". Recently, he admitted to "wondering how WW" was doing. He says he did not want to contact her, but was thinking about the context of the result of the A. In any case, this thread was a good venue for discussion about her character and additional reasons about why he does not need to be concerned about "how she is doing and whether she is ok" - not worth his time or interest. So perfect timing for me.

I have been troubled by the several BHs here that seem to have the "deer in the headlights" paralysis. I think maybe the carrot and the stick of plan A might have some gender differences, i.e. for WHs, more carrot, not so much stick and for WWs less carrot and more stick. I don't know really.... I certainly delivered a hefty dose of stick in my situation.

Thank you for this thread.

AM

You were including all of us in that, weren't you?

It sounds more than likely to be too little, too late. For a self-respecting BH, that is.


From what I have seen the past several years on MB, garden variety adultery is pretty much where the recovery successes, such as they are, lie. I cannot recall even one successful LTA, VLTA or serial adultery recovery.

Yes

I think the problem that I would have had with this line of thinking is that it makes a BS feel as if the WS has to be forced to love him and forced to behave as they promised.
Many BH's are already being accused of being "controlling", "jealous", "paranoid" etc. To have to confront and take measures to force your spouse to show you respect and love feels demeaning. And with the accustaions about control flying, you back off.

Getting back to how it's possible to be eaten up with guilt and suffer health problems and STILL continue with the A, I found the payoff from the high of the A countered those feelings. I tried to compartmentalise but couldn't. The A took over my life. My family were very aware "something" was wrong but never considered an A. They all thought it was work related and I used "work stress" as my excuse for my unusual behaviour.

I smoke and I know what it's doing to me but I also continue to smoke. The payoff (though I've no idea what that is - I just love having a permanent cough and a wheeze and stinky breath ) must make it possible.

I didn't really even look at the #2 WW, but after Rose's comment that she fitted that description in the throes of the A I'll revisit it.

Happy to participate. It's an interesting thread.

One other thing I wanted to say about your list.

It reminds me of when I was talking to my IC.

He said 90% of the people he sees come to him because they know they have something wrong. They are getting by, but whatevers wrong is starting to be more of a problem.

The other 10% come to him and say they feel fine. They are there because for some odd reason, nobody can stand them.

He said he usually has very good results with the first group and usually completely fails with the second. It's just very difficult when someone thinks they are fine and everyone else is messed up.

So, it makes me think (whether it is two types of WW's or one WW at different stages), that I would add on your list, type 1 views the A as a problem. Type II views the A as a solution.

I think this is the disitnction between folks that have problems and those that are disordered. From what i have read and from talking to my therapist, it seems the disordered simply refuse or are unable to see that their fundamental view of life is off kilter. It is always someone else's fault. And, they sincerely believe this. So, it is really tough to help them.

It comes down to that old saw "if you think you're mad, you're probably not."

Oh man,

rpynne said

Then Zelmo rephrased it

Then consider Ap's thoughts on VLTA's and I think we have a WINNER.

I have always thought, that Dr. Harley thought, that many folks marriages could be saved...BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. Harley actually says this but as far as I have read he sort of limited this to people with addictions as not salvageable unless the addition was addressed. Now if the above quotes have merit and Ap's thinking has merit (which I do agree with as well), what is being said is that there is a class of folks for which the concepts of Love Banks, Needs, meeting NEEDS, respect, and self-respect really have no or very little meaning. If that is so, then the MB approach offers very little leverage with regard to ending the affair and rebuilding the marriage.


Interesting, very interesting.

Good Thread Pep, interesting and insightful comments everywhere, I LOVE IT.

God Bless,

JL

I saw this thread the other day and wanted to make a post but didn't have time.

After reading most of it I think my WW is in the same catagory as BC's.

Has some of both characteristics but overall is in catagory 2.



Interesting thread with a lot of neat points.

I have encountered here LTA and serial adultery spouses who describe their marriages as recovered. I suspect that you would not accept their definitions of "recovered". I suspect, though, that you would not accept most people's definitions of "recovered".

Your saying "where the recovery successes, such as they are lie" suggests that you believe that recovery is a very rare thing, and that most people are settling for the best they can get in a bad situation. They cannot admit that and instead kid themselves that their marriage has recovered.

Rose, I am not sure if I am clear enough. I knew instinctively that independent behavior from either of us was not good for the M. Not to excuse my A, cuz there is no excuse, but I tried so hard to get his attention. It was always elsewhere. I begged him to spend his energy on our family, not strangers. I really think some of this was my acting out because he wasn't paying attention to me. The longer he allowed me to go off and do whatever I wanted without question (independent behavior) the more I questioned his committment to me. I was not asking for a parent or a babysitter, I wanted to feel wanted, liked etc. Arrgh, I am not explaining myself well. For me, personally, I want my H to be someone who is not afraid to say no to me. I have that today. We are a team. We discuss almost to the point of POJA. He is not afraid to tell me "no or not now". I LIKE that. If I wanted to be a single parent, I would not have gotten married.

Zelmo, I think THAT is one of the problems with many BH's around here. They FEAR their WW so much, once she yells the word "controlling" they back off.

I am telling you from my POV, the stick would have been the most effective on me.

HI FF -

"I want my H to be someone who is not afraid to say no to me. I have that today. We are a team. We discuss almost to the point of POJA."

You explained it well - I get what you mean. I didn't mean to give you a hard time, I was just wondering. Thanks.

Rose

Faithful, no doubt BH's make mistakes in not getting tough soon enough. But, I think you have to factor in that the strength required to do this may have been dissipated by the trauma of discovery.
I felt like I had been hit by a ton of bricks, and many BSs are being badly ab used in conjunction with the affair.
Can you understand that your H may have been reeling and incapacitated by the trauma?
I am very strong in most area of my life. I can face down judges and other attorneys. I can play golf under pressure. I can push myself to the extreme in working out and practicing. But, I wanted to curl up into a ball when I found out.
By the time I righted myself and took action, my XW had moved in with the OM. I did the exposure to the max and insisted I wanted us to get counseling. I supported my kids and kept going to work, trying cases and crying on breaks.
I guess I found this place too late.

Zelmo, I'm not sure if you're aware that Faithful is here as a BS, dealing with an OC from her H's second A. Her H didn't know about her A until 8 years after the fact. Forgive me if I'm wrong, FF, but didn't your H's discovery of your A come out after his second A?

I think we see that here DAILY!!!

FWIW, I happen to agree with Aphelion's perspective on this. It appears that there is a very small percentage of WW's that are salvageable as fully functioning equal marriage partners.

Even in the best cases, BH's simply have to acquire a taste for shi!t, because more often than not, they are continuing in a situation that is contradictory to their own personal Pre-A boundaries ... it just puts you in a place of being in constant conflict with yourself.

I love FogFree and remain confident in my decision to R, but that decision cost me some measure of SELF-respect that I will never be able to reclaim.

In effect, it remains a consequence of MY actions.

I am not a wayward wife, but i am a wife and a woman and it feels like to me that women in general really get "bashed" here on MB quite a lot.

Is it because "boys will be boys" kind of thinking maybe?

WHs ARE JUST AS BAD AS WWs and do a lot of the same things WWs do, but it seems the women get "bashed" far more than the men do.

Maybe it is just my take on it, but that it how it appears to me.

A BS period (not just a BH) has to take a lot of [censored] and have lost at least a small amount of their own SELF-RESPECT. It is the nature of adultery IMHO.

Could someone clarify for a newbie what LTA and VLTA means please? Thanks!

LTA=Long Term Affait

VLTA=Very Long Term Affair

Thanks, do you consider 1yr an LTA?

I do not know what would be considered either a LTA or a VLTA.

Speaking of LTA/VLTAs, which list do they fit on? My WstbxH's A is now 2 years past discovery and at least 3 years old (possible EA for an additional 2 years but it's hard to say as OW was caught in a different A in Jan 06). However, he has had no prior affairs (that I know of) and he *seemed* to have more of the characteristics of type 1. This is in contrast to OW who has all the characteristics of type II and then some. Now, I could just be fooled by WstbxH, but I am trying to objectively evaluate his behavior to the best that I can.

I also think that i would have to agree with Aph regarding "recovery". I am not sure that anyone is ever able to truly "recover" their M or personally after adultery.

If that were the case then there would be no such thing as NC FOR LIFE OR ELSE IT COULD START AGAIN.

That is drilled into everyone's head from day one on MB. So if that is the case then how can you truly ever "recover" from such a thing.

You can use the A to have a better M than you had before the A and learn things about yourself that contributed to things or need changed anyway, but i do not think you ever TRULY recover.

I would think that any A where the deceit involved has basically become a routine part of the WS's life, to the point that they don't think twice about doing it, can be considered as a LTA.

I always thought LTA/VLTA refered to the length of time the affair went on. I don't know exactly how long it has to be to qualify as VLTA, but I do recall something about affairs lasting longer than the typical 2 years were LTAs.

Some WS's are serial cheaters, don't think twice about it but never have more than ONS's or short term affairs.

Rose, you didn't give me a hard time. Some days I just can't put the words in the proper order to make my point. Too much stress, not enough sleep! You are such a blessing, I hope you know that.

Zelmo, I completely know where you are coming from. By the time my H found out the truth about my A, his 2nd OW was pregnant. I have been through multiple false recoveries and trauma from all of this myself.

Thank you, Jen! Yes, OW2 was already pregnant when he found out about my A.

Perhaps. But I don't know if that really describes what I was posting about.

I don't like "hassles". I see it as perfectly logical to skip a pleasurable experience if it involves (or could involve) a lot of hassles. For example, I love baseball. I very much enjoy being at a game. But I hate the buying tickets, the traffic, the occassional chasing someone out of your seats, the drunk heckler sitting next to you, etc. So what I see as a solution to that is to watch the game on TV. On the other hand, my FWW would view the fact that I don't want to go to the game as the problem.

I'm using this as a simple example, so no need to debate whether I am nuts. But if I were to go to an IC about this problem, they could talk till they are blue in the face and never convince me that my logic was wrong. I'd be aware that it distresses my FWW, I would have empathy for her, so I would not consider myself disordered in this respect.

I would tend to disagree. I think a BH that feels that way is probably overestimating the quality of his M prior to the A and underestimating the quality of his M after the A.


That is a shame. I would think that it would increase your self-respect. Rather than scorch the earth, as was probably your first impulse, you showed mercy and compassion. I think those are pretty respectable actions.

Hey, rprynne ... I don't think my point got through ... or maybe I'm off base ... I don't know.

Anyway, the point I was making revolved around the conflict created within a BH, who always said that they would never tolerate their W having an A, but then when faced with that very real situation, decided to break one of their own personal boundaries, including the loss of SELF-respect due to the BH not enforcing that personal boundary.

Their really are a few things that are better in our M post-A, especially the communication ... not that we didn't talk before, but some of that was lost in he said/she heard and vice versa. I give MB much credit for providing a vocabulary/language where FogFree and I can be on the same page when discussing those hard to understand/communicate relationship issues.

However, there was a "specialness" ... "exclusiveness" ... that is now lost and while some things have improved ... I would trade all of the improvements to go back to the pre-A M that we shared.

In hillbilly speak, I just don't think ... "The juice was worth the squeeze".

I don't think that was truly a real boundary for a lot of us. It was easy to say it because you never believed it was going to happen. It was inconceivable so it was easy to strut and talk tough. Then came reality. We did not train, study or prepare for this. Now if somehow this were ever to happen again.....things would be different.

It’s interesting too because there was a thread once on the “evil twin site” that talked about how sure the WW’s were that they were going to walk right out the door the day their BH discovered her adultery. Instead, just like the betrayed they admitted they generally froze up and did not know what to do.

My purpose writing these lists was to help ME explore ( for myself and anyone else who wanted to explore with me ) the thought process I go through when I think there is some assistance to offer.

My intention was never to debase any WW, nor was my intention to defend any WW.

And I decided to begin my process with the more difficult gender :MrEEk: ... the estrogen makers.

Hey, I resemble that comment.

But I am NOT DIFFICULT!!!!

Well we may be the estrogen makers but we are the "fairer gender" as well

You know how the Harley philosophy approaches infidelity. We are all wired with the potential to have our ENs met by someone other than our spouses, right?

Well, if I were ever so unfortunate to have my own infidelity I'm pretty certain I'd be all over this #1 list.

Why do I say that? Because of the #2 list.

I am particularly bad at lying face to face. I mean, lets face it, I'm known for my bluntness. What I know about myself is this ~~~> My emotions are easily read by anyone who knows me. My H says to me "You don't play poker well".

I think there might be a clue here. If someone lies comfortably and convincingly in other areas of life, it's a life skill that pre-existed prior to infidelity.

So, I was wondering if there is a pre-existing propensity to lie well, would THAT alone explain who lands on list #2?

I am wondering - I have not made a conclusion.

But once again i think this could apply to either sex. I KNEW MY FWH WAS LYING RIGHT AWAY.

Okay - I think I understand your point better. I agree about the initial conflict. But I do not think it is perpetual or constant. (At least not with the well adjusted person). I don't think it will be a constant conflict for you.

If you are curious, I could lay out my logic, but don't want to T/J.

The main thing I was hoping you heard in my previous post is that you should not lose any of your self-respect because you chose to attempt recovery, even if it crossed a personal boundary.

Let the forum understand the FACTS here. I have met MF ( I just love writing her initials ) IN PERSON, and MF is most certainly an estrogen maker - a very pretty & voluptuous ,and yes, a delightfully difficult, estrogen maker. If you don't believe me, ask MF's delightful handsome HUSBAND , who will back me up

Some items on my 2 lists can possibly (probably) be applicable to the WH group- but I really think there is a difference or two, in some fundamental ways.

I'm not ready to do a male version of this (yet) because I'm not finished thinking about the estrogen-makers

I think that rings quite true. I am a dreadful liar and I can not keep my expression neutral ( the evidence is apparent all over my face - lines everywhere and I'm only 33). I do place myself as type 1, I can tick all the boxes. I think without MB I could/would have become type 2 and did display point 8 (which I think comes with entitlement).

H and I were discussing this thread this morning and we thought if the self loathing and depression got so bad fom being a type 1 and unable to shake off, it may be possible to become a type 2 in a self destruct type of way.

Good point!

Care to elaborate?

Ok, so an A comes along because basically we're not liking where we're at with life and have weak boundaries. So, I guess you have this subconscious thing going on in your head that your worthless, you've messed up, there's no going back now, you've failed. Then you have a guy (any old guy) comes along says a nice word in a friendly way and that's it your hooked.

It becomes and addiction to move through the guys - sticking with same guy too long gets complicated and might hurt you if they or you get too attached, so you just keep moving on - another nice word - feel a bit crap about yourself again another friendly word "oh thanks for that how can i repay you? yep i know..."

So it all just becomes habitual conscience disappears because it has just become you. Something needs to break the cycle. Thank goodness for MB before it became a cycle.

Maybe...?????

Not sure. Are you are asking "would all good liers be WW type II" If so, I would say probably not. But I would say all WW's type II are good liers. (I'm assuming that your list means WW's type II conceal their affairs, as opposed to a WW who unilaterly decides to have an "open" marriage.)

I do think that you can make an arguement that good liars are more likely to be type II. Lying is a skill that takes practice. The people who practice it the most typically have a philsophical bent towards believing that perception is more important than reality. Which tends to fit type II.

Several years ago there were a long series of MB threads about LTAs. The general consensus was an LTA lasts at least twice as long as the Dr Harley definition of a garden variety length affair of two years: i.e. four years.

And a VLTA would be at least twice that, or eight years.

An LTA seems to be somewhere around three-sigma re duration. VLTAs are outliers in the statistics.

The longest VLTA I remember seeing on MB was 28 years, as I recall.

Two things worth knowing about LTAs and VLTAs in general:

1) They become rather low intensity in the main. Think “Same Time Next Year” kind of thing, although that would be an extreme of low intensity. After the first four years, my wife’s VLTA went to weekly calls and emails with an intimate meeting maybe a half dozen times a year. (Although some of these meetings were week long business trips together to exotic places all over the world.)

2) They go on for so long the adulterer becomes what they are doing. It gets in their blood. I do not believe they can ever go back to not being an adulterer. They have been doing it for so long it is fundamentally who they really are. It is how they think now. Even if they are not active at it.



Re lying habits: So true. My wife was a habitual liar about all kinds of small and sundry things long before the start of the VLTA. (Something I did not discover until after we were married.) During the decade of her adultery she became more and more a walking, talking lie. Nothing with her, no matter what, was as it seemed or as she said. Nothing. It became funny, in a way. She would lie even when the truth would serve her better. Even with non-affair things. Things that had no connection to her adultery at all - she still more often than not lied.

This is interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I might be (?) weird, but I have never thought of myself as "worthless".

Where do you suppose that thought came from?

Personally, I think this line of thinking is only an option when a woman has an external locus of control.
*link*

I tend to think this is a better metric for defining a LTA as opposed to length of time. My FWW's A lasted 3.5 years (about 1.5 of an real contact, then about 2 of keeping in touch, etc.). But I define it as a LTA, because it just became part of normal life for her.

However, I disagree that they can never go back.

This is exactly what I was looking for ... thanks for stating this so clearly

Yes. This works for me.

PS - You inspired my latest dumb sig line.

hmmmmmmmm

Do you think that this:


and this:



are connected?

lying = control & power

????????? perhaps ??????????

What if WW is really like #1 but upon discovery comes across as #2?

H's FOW seems like a mix of the two but since he dumped her, I think OW tried to laugh off the A/being dumped because after discovery she looked like a complete idiot. H says she never thought she was "all that" during the A. But to me, she looked like a total witch that was morally bankrupt(#2). For all I know she curls up in a ball every night crying her eyes out because she hates herself and is ashamed of what she has done. But all I see is that she acted like a vindictive b*tch who was only crying that my H didn't leave me for her...if he had she'd be all smiles. Either way I don't feel sorry for her but it is possible her nonchlant behavior was a cover for her to save face in her mind rather than admit she was a troll.

BR - I'm not discussing any OW.
I don't mind your posting about the OW.
It's just that I will not be discussing or offering opinions of any OW on this thread.

The OW was someone's WW though...

As a BW I can only guess what might be going on in a WW's mind not just the OW in my case. It was merely an example.

I think both of these lists are very accurate.

The Type 1 Run of the Mill WW fits Wayzilla to a tee up until the divorce. Now I think she may be starting to pick up a couple of the Type 2 traits.

Gollum on the other hand displayed several of the traits for the Type 2 as far as we are willing to assign them to males. The Type 2 list strikes me as fairly uni-sex but what do I know.

And of course because Gollum was married, Wayzilla was both a WW and OW.

Aside: I think you are really a fun character !

Accepting your up-close-and-personal assessment of this ... why was her infidelity NOT impacted using MB concepts & plans?

:MrEEk:
No, no, no, not you. The ww1 that has morphed into type 2!!. Sorry for the confusion. I do try not to be counterproductive and offensive with my posts.

I agree - a very external locus of control

(now then I'm sure I have already posted this but it doesn't seem to have appeared.)

My Rev,

Permit me a small indulgence here.

I think that this:

explains this:


and this:


I had similar self doubts when I was 2 years into recovery.

I thought I would NEVER 100% respect my decision to remain married.

I was wrong.

I'll bet you a cup 'o' joe, you're wrong too.

Come see me about this in .... say .... 2013.
for a grumpy dude

I'm NOT confused !!!!!!!!!

I never thought you were referring to me !

See my post to My Rev . You're on the same timeline. (2007)


In some ways, the 2-year mark is harder than one expects it to be. The BS doesn't feel the way they hope to feel and still are haunted by lingering self doubts.

About your "NC for life" comment. Very much like AA. They refer to themselves as "recovering" not "recovered".

Perhaps that is your point?

I say this to most of this, and THIS to this part: "and yes, a delightfully difficult, estrogen maker.".

I will say it again: I AM NOT DIFFICULT!!!

<I loves ya, Pep...even if you think I am "difficult"....HUMPH!>

This is EXACTLY where I am, and I am relieved to hear that it is at least sort of normal.

It's too bad they disabled the "post a poll" feature. We could settle this with a vote !


FWIW - I trump your level of difficulty due to my >ahem< senority

Well Pep, here you are writing a White Paper and I'm reading Action Comics.



To quote Lord Wellington after Waterloo, "It was a near run thing."

Of course he won.

Napoleon probably said, "That really sucked!"

It was probably due to the idiot running the plan but……MB Plans worked very well and did impact the adultery.

Plan A really pissed her off. It was actions not words and it did not feed into her plan and justifications at all. I still believe I did a very good Plan A. It made it’s intended mark.

One night after D-Day she came home started pounding down vodka Collins and was stumbling drunk in about an hour.

She started crying and moaning, “Why are you doing this? How can you be so nice to me? I just want to die! It’s not supposed to be like this.”

I got to hold her hair out of her face and the toilet while she puked, tucked her into bed and took care of her the next day. Ah, the Golden Moments of Plan A.

Exposure was a total blast and did temporarily end the adultery. She cried, apologized, cried some more, burned her souvenirs from the adultery in the fireplace and promised to attempt recovery with me.

But……. she drug her feet looking for a new job to leave the company they worked at and in the end I could not force that. They worked in different facilities about 60 miles apart so it was a ticking bomb. We had NC and painful withdrawal for 21 days before there was a meeting they both were at in her facility. When she got home, 21 days of withdrawal was wiped clean and she was deep in the fog. She was gone a week later.

It was all undone by a single contact after NC began.

Plan B? Well Plan B has worked very well for me and to some extent still is a thorn in the adultery although I understand at least as of last week they are still together.

I am also in the camp that believes once a WW begins a sexual adultery the BH is really, really in trouble. Far more so than a BW.

To do this a WW has closed every door on the marriage to be able to justify and live with her decision to have sex with another man. At least those from the Type 1 list.

Well, those last 2 sentences made my heart stop. Totally agree. And I think that is why I stopped the A before I made that bad decision. I hadn't processed that 'til now.

Thanks Chrisner

Chrisner, awesome post except I disagree with this. I was most definitely in the first list. The ONLY way I could have sex (ick) with the OM was to compartmentalize my R with him. I never closed the door on the M, I wanted my H to want me. The moment he agreed to (finally) go to MC with me, I ended the A. At THAT point, OM was so pissed at me, he did everything possible to show me he no longer wanted me. THANK YOU GOD!

I can attempt to answer this on his behalf. I still maintain my W(stbx)H fit Type 1, though I concede that it is possible that I simply didn't find everything out, and his OW is a bonafide type 2, and my marriage failed also. So we're very similar except opposite sex WS's. I pulled out of the "MB guide to ending the A and recovering the M" rather early on due to a number of reasons. But I stayed here to try to gain insight as to what actually happened. In many respects, I learned MB after I stopped practicing it for its purpose. But I could definitely see how, if had done certain things in Plan A, and conducted my Plan B exactly according to MB, it WOULD have impacted my WS. I did do my own modified version of Plan B - no contact but no PBL - and he actually did respond exactly as the MB program is designed for WS's to respond. I do believe MB WOULD HAVE worked, had I executed it as prescribed.

Executing perfect exposure, Plan A and Plan B is not easy under a normal frame of mind. A newly betrayed BS is NOT thinking at their best and it's not surprising they make many mistakes. Unfortunately, hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to see where you woulda/coulda/shoulda done something differently but its too late by then. After reading thread after thread after thread of different situation, I believe more than ever that the MB program is very, very specific. Dr. Harley says himself that small deviations from the plan usually mean failure. It's a very fine line to follow and even slight missteps affect the ultimate outcome.

I replied before I saw this. This is what I mean by fine line. Very easy to misstep and when you consider recovery ultimately requires both spouses, the misstep can come from the WS - derailing every inch that had been attained to that point. Makes it all the much harder.

Chrisner:
I am also in the camp that believes once a WW begins a sexual adultery the BH is really, really in trouble. Far more so than a BW.

To do this a WW has closed every door on the marriage to be able to justify and live with her decision to have sex with another man. At least those from the Type 1 list.

Wow. This is a scary thought. I think it's also very true.

Two things saved my marriage.

One -- we went out of town for a weekend because I recognized something was wrong. I didn't know what it was, but it felt like we had grown apart and I wanted us to reconnect. That raised the level of her self-doubt about the A that she was carrying on without my knowledge. In other words, guilt kicked in, guilt on steroids.

Two -- Pond Scum was a total tool. When FWW found out that he'd been badmouthing her to the wife that he had proclaimed to the world for two years to the world that he'd divorced, that put the final kibosh on things. This happened after she'd broken NC eight separate times. The only reason there was no field goal attempt on her wayward a$$ was the fact that all contact was via text, not in person. Had they met in corpus, the M would have been a corpse.

In other words, I got lucky. Luckier than I deserved.

My point is that you are "recovering" forever, you are NEVER "recovered". It is something that will be with you for the rest of your life no matter what. You will never forget it and we are all different after it happens to us (both the WS and the BS), sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

Some people agreed that WW showed characteristic signs of psychopathic behaviour and that the behaviour was part of a continuum of degree .I notice that narcissistic behaviour has not had a mention and would like to add my own conviction that narcissism can at the extreme end of the behavioural spectrum become psychopathic.

If you take the two lists there are a number of items which have a common thread

DSM IV-TR criteria for narcissism

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:[1]

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special".
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement
6. is interpersonally exploitative
7. lacks empathy
8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

The exploitative, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, disregard for others, and constant need for attention inherent in NPD adversely affect interpersonal relationships.

Narcissism can be a considered a self-perceived form of perfectionism. Narcissists often are pseudo-perfectionists and require being the center of attention and create situations where they will receive attention.[

1. Previous adulteries or cheated on boyfriends.

2. Barely recognizes her conscience.

3. Works out, feels good, sleeps like a baby.

4. Not "head-over-heels" in love, but loves the attention.

5. "Follow your heart" IS her compass in life.

6. Cries for an audience, especially when caught.

7. May drink, do drugs, but does them to heighten her sense of pleasure.

8. Feels powerful and in control.

9. Loves herself. Why not?

10. Can look people straight in the eye and lie her [censored] off. Then go to bed with OM(s), then come home and kiss her BH, her children, and have a good night sleep. No problem.
_________________________

So how does this relate? If the purpose of this thread is to explore better ways for the members to help the BH intervene?

I am missing the relevance as far as helping the BH.

No point in "diagnosing" a WW unless it is a means to helping the BH.

Do you agree?

I haven't been able to keep up with this thread while at work, but I think that all waywards, both WWs and WHs exhibit many characteristics of both NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I believe it is because an affair is one of the most self serving, selfish, narcissistic acts that you can commit and that only by allowing yourself to manifest those traits can you even have one.

But what I think needs to be looked at is whether or not any of those traits and tendencies existed before the affair in order to determine if there is much chance at recovery.

For what has been described as the Type I, I think a reasonable person would suggest that those traits were not always present, though they are during the affair. For a Type II, those traits really are already there and even though an affair might not have happened, the wayward is an affair looking for an affair partner. The Type II always had motive and ability but only requires opportunity in order to commit the crime.

For many who come here as a BS not much thought is actually given to whether or not the marriage should be saved. Even at its best, the marriage was highly dysfunctional because of alcohol, abuse, uncontrolled spending, drug addiction, and other selfish acts known collectively as simply Independent Behavior.

I have seen many who while dealing with a wayward spouse, usually men dealing with a wayward wife, that have been absolutely convinced that the WS was plagued by NPD or BPD. The solution seems to be to get the WS help in dealing with this disorder and THAT will fix the marriage.

But the reality is that an affair is the supreme act of selfishness and so it will contain any and/or all traits of any disorder that has at its root showing care only for oneself. What a BS has to do is look at life before the affair to see if those same things were there and if that is the case, there really isn't much that can be done because the affair is just the latest act that reflects the condition and even when the affair ends the condition will not change. Some people are simply broken beyond repair and cannot or will not change their behavior for the good of anything or anyone else since they live entirely for themselves.

But anyone CAN change, though not many do change. What we are really discussing here are probabilities of recovery and avoidance of a repeat. The Type I list speaks to the character of the person who made a mistake in a moment of weakness, probably because they did not recognize that weakness until it was too late and they were already involved.

The second list describes a person who has shown that their character is somehow defective and that the probability of them really changing is pretty small. Though anyone on either list might turn around and become a faithful and loyal spouse, there are some who have shown by their history that they will not likely change.

These are the ones whose spouses we advise to skip the drama and humiliation and go to Plan D. The problem is that seldom do they want to face the reality of who they have married and so we end up helping them fight for a marriage that really lies well outside the bounds of a normal distribution. It really becomes obvious very quickly that the marriage is doomed, but more to the point was doomed from the very beginning. And yet we fight on because we are passionate about marriage and any marriage in peril with even a remote probability of succeeding is worth the fight.

Past history means a lot. Who among us would have married the person we did if we had really known what they were capable of and yet many of us fought tooth and nail to save the marriage when it appeared that all was lost.

Type I is a person who messed up big time. Consequences of their choices cause them to become introspective and look inside for answers.

Type II is a person who has shown that they don't want to change anything about themselves. Consequences mean nothing, because life is all about them and what they want. No consequence causes any introspection at all.

Type I is a buyer that has fallen to renting.

Type II is never more that a renter and is usually nothing but a freeloader.

WoW

THIS *link* is one of my favorite examples of how someone really, really LOST and HOPELESS can change.

My XWW was definitely a type II. She had been in affairs as an OW before I met her, had bounced checks like crazy, lied to me about having a college degree.
Lying was second nature to her. I really thing that the WWs you describe as type II are personality disordered types. Since infidelity is so rampant among this type, personality disordered people are dispropotionately represented among WSs.
Look at their histories and the way they are inareas other than merely the inability(unwillingness) to remain faithful.
You'll see a history of lying, finanacial irresponsibility, verbal and emotional abuse. In general, they leave a wake of destruction.

Have you read the book

People Of The Lie by M. Scott Peck?
*link*

I think knowing about the Clustr B personality disorders can be very helpful. One is wasting one's time trying to recover a marriage after infidelity if you are dealing with the disordered. So, it helps to realize your best course of action is to get out.

Sometimes a man marries a woman with a personality disorder because it fills a need of his.

Have you considered that?

No, I will look for it. I've read a lot about these pd's. I had never heard of them before all this.

Hi Zelmo –

“One is wasting one's time trying to recover a marriage after infidelity if you are dealing with the disordered. So, it helps to realize your best course of action is to get out.”

Would the WS need to be diagnosed by a professional before the BS filed for D? What if a spouse has a disorder (or disorders), and is willing to get help, and is able to change, and his/her marriage vows included “in sickness and in health?”

Do you think there is also the possibility that everyone has a “disorder” of some kind, to some degree?

hmmmmmm.....very very intersting Pep......The rescuer syndrome perhaps???....(I've been watching this and seeing how it applies to my Mom and Dad's marriage.....)


not2fun

Hi FF -

"Rose...You are such a blessing, I hope you know that."

I just wanted to see that in print one more time. LOL. Seriously, thanks for the compliment.

“But, I think if you offer to stay and offer to get them help and it is refused and the behaviors continue, you have fulfilled your vow.”

Zelmo -

I agree. Especially after infidelity occurs. Actually, after an A, the BS doesn’t even have to do that much, come to think of it.

I was quite committed to trying to get my XWW help and to get counseling for us. Each time I was derided and insulted. This is pretty typical, from what I understand.
It all boiled down to that she would not stop cheating, would not stop bouncing checks, would not stop raging, would not stop buying things we had no use for. So, the decision became clear. Not easy, but clear.

ok, Mark, I have to admit I read dat whole damn thing because I just couldn't stop after getting to my THREE PARAGRAPH LIMIT! And I was well rewarded for my effort because that is an awesome post, ADD be damned!

I so agree with everything you said and can equate this to alcoholism. The alcoholic personality is DESCRIBED in Type 11. That is US. You know how many alcoholics ever sober up and really change from a Type 11? TEN PERCENT. That is it. I think some people are just so fundamentally screwed up that there is not much likelihood they will ever choose to change. They can change if they want to, but few want to.

Dr Harley doesn't recommend Plan A with alcoholics either. I think that is something that might be considered with Type 11's. Plan A is of no effect with an alcoholic, because they are so messed up that it is impossible to meet their needs. Nor did the affair of most Type 11s even start because of unmet needs; rather it is usually because of their character. Like you pointed out, cheating is a just a character trait of theirs.

still thinking.....

That is very sad, Zelmo, I'm sorry that happened to you.

Thanks. It is a fairly typical story involving a relatioship with a cluster B disordered person, apparently-verbal abuse, cold water dousings in the shower, emasculating remarks, overspending, lying, and, thankfully, infidelity, the one final straw that finally got me off my co-dependent [censored] and out.

HI Zelmo

i am interested to know how your w presented prior to marriage ?

Hi Pepperband

My response

There is a formula for solving problems which was taught to me by a librarian once.

She said that most issues can be addressed by the use of 3 words.They are WHAT is it WHY is it so and HOW are you going to deal with it.So far you are at first base and have identified the what of the problem very well indeed.

IMO You cannot proceed to third(HOW)base until you have dealt with the WHY factor.The WHY being an intrinsic part of the problem.In this case the behaviours are a symptom of underlying personality problems and maladaptive strategies in both type 1 and type 2 examples

"WhY?"

That is what every BS wants to know. "Why did she/he do this to me?" "Why were vows so easily broken?" And the best of all "Why didn't I see this coming?"

Grunzburg suggests that even asking the question "Why?" is a waste of time and effort. When a BS asks the question what they seek is something that will somehow explain it so that they can accept it. The problem is that nothing can be an acceptable answer because there are no acceptable answers as to why someone would do such a thing.

This from Grunzburg.:
• Some people cheat because they aren’t getting their needs met within the marriage and are under the deluded notion that going outside the marriage to get them met is a legitimate answer. It isn’t.
• In some cases people cheat because they have never learned to honor boundaries. They know the boundaries are there, but do not hesitate to step over them.
• Some, usually men, think that they are not real men if they turn down an invitation from someone attractive.
• Some people are thrill seekers who just can’t pass up the opportunity to get a thrill. The very fact that they are doing something that is considered taboo compels them to engage in an affair.
• Some may cheat because they have low self esteem. They get a sense of self worth from finding someone who is attracted to them and cares about them.
• In some cases, a person may have a sexual fetish that their partner is not willing to meet, so they go outside of their marriage in order to have these selfish desires fulfilled.
• A very common theme is that people cheat because their spouse no longer makes them feel special. These people go outside the marriage thinking that someone else might fill this gap.

Whatever the reasons, cheaters cheat because they have the mistaken notion that going outside their marriage will solve their problems or fulfill some unmet need or complete some aspect of their character.

And this from a post on my Musings thread:


And from the same post:

And I concluded with this:

Now I don't usually quote myself very often, but I wrote this some time ago and I think it applies to this issue. And since I'm basically lazy, I didn't feel like rewriting what I had already said before.

But I think "Why?" is way over rated when it comes to adultery. It's a question that might be relevant but has no ramifications as far as recovery goes. Not knowing why we do something does not mean we are helpless to prevent ourselves from repeating it again.

As an example, Dr Harley points out that annoying habits are love busters. These are little things we do without thinking at all. These are things like taking our shoes off and leaving them in the middle of the floor, or dropping our dirty clothes beside the hamper instead of in it or maybe belching at the dinner table...

We don't need to understand why someone does those things. And the person who does them doesn't have to comprehend the reasons that they do them. They only have to modify their behavior and stop doing them.

You see, in our society folks are always looking for why someone acts inappropriately in order to let them off the hook for their responsibility in committing a wrongful act. We blame mothers for making their sons into serial killers and fathers for making their daughters frigid marriage partners. We blame lack of opportunity for a gang-banger who shoots three 6 year old children while shooting at someone who might or might not be a member of a rival gang (he's not a very good shot either) and we think that if we could just get a handle on "WHY" these things are happening we could fix them...

The problem is that the people who are acting in a wrong or hurtful way are the ones that need fixing and we can't fix them at all. They have to fix themselves.

As it applies to marriage, we don't have to know why the marriage is broken to rebuild it into one that can last. Just like you don't really have to understand why the foundation on the house cracked if you can identify what was done wrong the first time and how to prevent it from happening again. In some cases the existing house can be repaired but in many if not most the house needs to be torn down and built right from scratch.

And this is the real why to infidelity. We allowed our relationship to fall into disrepair and maybe didn't have the right foundation to begin with. When the weakness of the basis of the marriage was revealed by a crack in the walls of the marriage, we put a coat of paint over things and assumed that it would be alright all by itself...
Until the day the house fell down and then we asked "Why did this happen?" This happened because "WE didn't do things right. If we do things right it won't happen again. If we do things the way we always did them, WHY bother putting it back together at all.

For the BS:
How did I let my marriage get this way?
What can I do to make sure I never show such neglect again?
As for "why?" I'll never understand it anyway.

For the WS:
How did I reach a decision that cheating was right or acceptable?
What can I do from this day on to make sure I never repeat those actions again?
"Why did I do this?" Because I didn't do anything to stop myself from doing it/I'm selfish at my basic core (as are ALL people)/I failed to protect my marriage from my evil desires.

Some couples remain together till one of them dies of old age and are perfectly happy without ever knowing why a wayward spouse cheats. They simply build their marriage in such a way that neither of them cheats.

I don't have to understand what takes place in the brain of an alcoholic that causes them to be addicted in order to stop drinking. I don't need to know what nicotine does in the way of blocking or triggering certain neuro-receptors in order to stop smoking. And I don't have to understand the way I became selfish enough to become an adulterer in order to stop the adultery. And as a BS I don't have to know what I did wrong to make sure I do things right in the future because I wasn't the reason the affair happened. The choice wasn't mine and I don't have to prevent it, my WS does.

Mark

myopia, I don't want to t/j. Suffice to say it was pretty much the standard masking technique used by NPD/BPDs during courtship. A very physically attractive package and very nice personality. Pretended to love me and my kids from a prior matrriage.
The mask came off in short order, after marriage nad pregnanacy(enmeshment ) and , soon, she was acting crazy and abusive. It was a horror show.

I guess maybe we have a different definition of "why" because to me the things i put in red above are the "WHY".

Well, in a word, no.

True, most people will not change, but also some people cannot change.

This everyone can change stuff is a like a medieval superstition. We now know some people’s brains are damaged. We now know some people’s thinking is damaged. Beyond repair.

Many actions and conditions at one time ascribed to demonic possession are now known to be scientifically induced. Evil may someday be thought similarly. That was what Peck was trying to do, in fact. Develop a psychology of evil.

There are known mental diseases that impel people to actions beyond their ability to resist. It is only a matter of time until science reveals the underlying programmatic inevitability of some people’s evil.

Mark,

While I agree with the "why" from the BS asking point of view, I disagree with your assessment of "why" from a recovery point of view. In my opinion, until the WS knows "why" they did what they did, and can take actions to address it, there really is little chance of recovery. Why? Because the BS has no hope of trusting the WS until the Ws takes actions based on "why" to establish and protect boundaries.

However, in decision of the the types of WW or WS, the type II is unlikely to ever ask themselves Why?, thus they are unlikely to ever change or develop the ability to protect the marriage. Ap's comments about change are dead on in my opinion, I do believe people can change, but I also believe that a variety of issues can present themselves so that the person has no interest in changing or simply cannot address the issue of change. It is their pathology to not change.

JL

Sweet.


This may just reiterate what Mark posted, but I think it helps because the BH needs to discover the true nature of the WW. In the back of my mind, I have always thought of exposure, plan A, plan B, the 180 plan, etc. as "tests" to determine the true nature of the WW. Essentially we are "testing" whether the behaviors can be atrributed to the situation of the WW or the disposition of the WW. We do that by changing the situation. If the WW's behaviors do not change in response to that, then we can conclude their actions are more driven by their disposition, rather than their situation.

IMHO, everybody's behavior is driven by a "mix" of their disposition and their situation. (This is at the core of Harley's we are all capable of cheating). Many people hate that conclusion (both for themselves and their WW's), yet accept it as matter of fact in so many other areas of life.


I guess I will somewhat disagree. This not to say that I think there is a "why" that makes it right. But there is a "why" that makes it acceptable. (As in, I can accept that reason).

For me, I see it as a pretty basic model. Person is in pain (irrelevent as to whether it is real, imagined, has merit or is self created). Person seeks to reduce pain. Person chooses between options based on what they assume will have maximum effect for minimal (or proportional) effort, regardless of "morality."

I put morality in quotes because in IMHO, people will constrain themselves by their internal moral code so long as it allows effective options. Once it does not, they will expand that code. Usually to legal limits, and usually only to the extent of potential punishment. (and even then, they will expand beyond that, if those limits constrain effective options).

I think where BH's struggle with "accepting" this is because they hold onto their illusions of uniqueness and justice. By uniqueness I mean they operate under the assumption that this model does not apply to their spouse and further, even if it did, they themselves are so unique that their spouse would suspend this model for them. By justice, I mean assuming that "bad" things do not happen to "good" people. These illusions culminate in the "How could YOU, do this to ME? I don't DESERVE it."

Which is essentially saying "Can you explain this behavior, given that you are special, I am special, and people get what they deserve?" Strip out the conditionals (i.e. you are not special, they are not special, and deserve's got nothing to do with it), and it's pretty basic.

I think people spend a lot of time raging against this reality.


We also know that brains can be "un-damaged".

I agree completely. 100%. This fits right in with the Harley MB behavioral psychology approach to adultery where people are mere helpless automations responding to externally applied stimuli (i.e. ENs). It’s a type of system identification. Hit the circuit with an impulse and see how it rings. Give the WS a kick in the pants and see how they respond. A very good way to identify their higher level control circuitry and what type of adulterer they really are.

BTW, I think 99.99999% of all adulterers are Pep’s Type II. Very, very few, a tiny, tiny minority, are Type I. Although, many of those II’s are very good at camouflage and misdirection.


We do? News to me. Perhaps you should tell this to the doctors treating the guy I read about who lost something like a 1/8 of his brain in a car accident. He can barely speak and he cannot see vertical lines. But he can write better than he could before. Oh, and he is now a SA – when he wasn’t before the accident.

"BTW, I think 99.99999% of all adulterers are Pep’s Type II."

More tosh.

What makes you think that, Aph? The implications of that, if true, are that WS's are essentially irredeemable (mostly by their own choice) and that most BS's should really just start D proceedings soon as they learn about the affair (after some plan A'ing, including exposure, to see if it stops the affair of course).

I don't think he would agree with the "helpless" part. Nor would I. As I posted in my next paragraph, people's behaviors can be attributed to a mix of situational attributes and dispositional attributes. You have tended to argue that it is all dispositional, i.e. people are who they are and act irregardless of situation. I believe you may be trying to discredit Harley (perhaps I am misreading your post) by claiming he argues that people's behaviors are completely situational. I don't think he agrees with that.


I used the "We" in response to you. You implied that people can not change because they are damaged, that this damage is irreversible, and that "we" know that. This is not my area of expertise, but I am aware that many findings suggest the brain changes throughout our life times (where previously it was thought that it stopped at adult hood). I am also aware of people who suffer head injuries are capable of accessing different parts of the brain to accomplish tasks. People aren't hard wired, they are wet wired. So while physical damage may be irreversable, their are ways to continue to function. Which is why I said "un-damage". I lacked a better word at the tip of my tongue, since it is clearly not a repair or replacement.

*Pep Quote...Mrs. W answers in red...


______________________________________________________________


Okay, first, rprynne, YOU DAWG, you were talking about ME while we were on VACATION...gaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!! :twobyfour:

We're back now, soooooo...

Secondly, can you please 'splain what you meant? (Btw, Mr. W never verbalized any "deciding it was over" to me...)

Mrs. W

It may be that Aph is expieriencing what I did, a completley remorseless, disordered, cheating spouse. The temptation for me is to extrapolate and assign these qualities to most cheaters. I think I might view things differently if I'd had some signs of contrition or acceptance of responsibility like some other BSs have.
Initially, I viewed most WSs as disordered(type IIs) simply by virtue of their having cheated. But, I can see now that some are just really messed up but not neccessarily personality disordered.
But, really, if your Ws is displaying type II stuff, examine how they are in other areas with an eye for discovering a personality disorder.

AP,

While I do know of people with seemingly no feedback circuits, I do think that most WS do have them and in fact use them. I think the pulse you are taking about not only helps to identify what type of WS they are, but given that they have a "feedback circuit" as I would claim most Cat 1's do, then in fact recovery is possible and it "ain't necessarily so" that once a cheater always a cheater.

I know your personal experience is far different from mine other than the fact that the woman I was engaged to that cheated on me, went on to end up murdered by one of the men she selected. I do feel she was definitely a category II. However, I have known more than a few folks that have recovered their marriage after an affair.

In fact, some of those folks still reside and post here.

The lack of a feedback loop (conscience and the ability to learn from mistakes) does exist, but most people stay potty trained, most learn not to repeatedly put their hand in a fire, most learn not to pick on people bigger, meaner, better armed than they are, most learn even that drunk driving is bad for them.

In short, most people can learn, do learn, and will learn IF the motivation is sufficiently strong. I'll go even farther, and point out that we train men to kill when it is against their nature, they go to combat kill people, come back and turn into civilians and never kill again, although life being what it is who has not thought of "dusting someone", especially if that someone cheated on them.

So I submit, people can learn and that means that "once a cheater always a cheater" is NOT set in stone.

JL

First off, you guys vacation a lot.

On the deciding it was over, maybe I am remembering someone else, but I thought Mr. W once posted that he got to a point in time (coincidently, I think prior to a vacation you were taking) where he decided that it was hopeless and that he was just going to enjoy the "last" remaining time together.

On 'splaining, Pep presented two lists to describe two different types of WW's. I theorized that, in general, the two lists could represent the same WW at different times during the A. (I use the "in general" qualifier, because I do not think it applies to every bullet point on the list). Pep asked for examples of WW's that demonstrated this possibility. I suggested that you are one.

This is not to say that you actually demonstrated any of the behaviors on the second list, it was to point out that you, in general, seem less fearful of discussing how you actually felt during different times during your A, so you would be a good person to comment. The reason I consider it important for the person discussing this to be less fearful is that answering the question truthfully requires an authenticity that most people are not capable of. Sometimes they are not capable of it due to deceitful purposes, but most times it's because we can't help that our "present" tends to color our intrepretation of the "past."

For example, many FWS's will say they felt guilty the whole time during their A. This could be an incorrect intrepretation of what their feelings were, based on the fact they have chosen recovery. One could argue that what they actually felt during some part of their A was pity, not guilt.

LOL that we vacation a lot rprynne...We wish! I can see where it seems that way though...we do have a good bit of freedom since we are the bosses and all...

And ahhhhhhhh, okay, I get what you are saying, Mr. Detail-Oriented!

Yes, it's true that I will say EXACTLY what I'm thinking or thought (as best I can) - sometimes to my detriment around here, but NEVER to my detriment at home...The credit for that goes to Mr. W...He is very calm and unemotional - That's not to say that he has no emotions - just that there is nothing off-limits in discussion with him...He's an excellent listener and helped me work through TONS of stuff...

I suppose I didn't fully elaborate on Pep's first list...Guilt? Yes, all the time, but sure it was mixed with other things as well...If guilt was the only thing I felt, I suppose I wouldn't have done what I did, no? I don't think "pity" was something I felt - "self pity" for sure - I had the typical wayward mentality after all...I was incredibly conflicted, which is why Xanax seemed like such a great idea - ugh...turns out that was a bad plan, who knew? I think it's likely impossible to describe every "feeling" that a WW has - they change with the wind...at least mine did...

As for the second list...I'll give it a shot...


So there ya go...I'd still say that the first list applies to me the most - as would Mr. W...

Mrs. W

ETA:
You are sorta correct...no vacation - just summer...I wouldn't say he thought it was "hopeless" - just that if I didn't "get it" in rather short order he would not wait around while I continued to be a giant pain in the patootie...He did not verbalize those plans to me however, but getting to that place certainly brought about a change in the way he was towards me...He became his old confident self again and I got on board rather quickly when that happened...THANKFULLY....

Fair enough.

I wonder for those that consider themselves type I, if they had not been "caught" and ended their A, if they think eventually more of the characteristics of type II would apply.

My premise being when people are doing something "wrong", it creates conflict and they can only sustain it for so long. (This is Type I). They either "get right" with the wrong (type II) or they cease doing the "wrong", and thus are not actively wayward.

This is just speculation. But, I cannot see how a type 1 morphs into a type2. IMO, the type 2 you describe is some sort of sociopath and folks don't become one of those over time.
I wonder what is the overriding flaw in type 1's?

Ok. Are you saying this doesn't apply to WW's or people in general. I mean plenty of politicions, movie stars, professional athletes, business leaders, etc. seem to make this transformation.

May be a chicken and the egg argument. But, I think it is pretty well accepted that personality disorders do not develop in adulthood. They are longstanding.
The characteristics you describe,rp, seem pretty much in line with the cluster B disorders. The history of cheating, the remorselessness, the facility for lying, the blameshifting. All these are PD characteristics.
If there are a lot of PD's in the professions you mention, I suspect it is because PD folks are drawn to them as they provide a source of narcissistic supply. I don't think a healthy person entering those professions gets transformed. And, I'm not sure PD's are more hightly represented in those professions. It may be they are just more visible and identifiable in these public professions.
In any case, really take a hard look at what you describe as a Type 2 WW(and this could easily apply to a WH, as well). These are folks with a history of this, without remorse, essentially inveterate liars and manipulators. No way cheating alone causes someone to become this many standard deviations from normal.

If WW is in an exit A or looking for attention, she could start off as type #1 and struggles with the deception. When she turns into #2 is the question. Has the A gone on so long that her deceptive behavior becomes second nature? Is she defective and honestly doesn't see anything wrong with what she did? Is she type #2 because she's been hurt in life and takes an attitude of she'll screw you over before some else does? Even then is she a sociopath or does she only look like a sociopath because she hates herself and doesn't want to admit it or let others see it?

Some theorize that sociaopaths, NPD's, BPDs etc are all in some form of pain, primarily due to self hatred. We think of NPDs , in particular, as being overly in love with themselves. But, some fols that have researched this say that , in reality, these folks have a lot of self loathing and the behaviors we see demonstrated mask this as they seem to reflect the opposite.
I just cannot see someone that is not disordered demonstating the level of comfort with lying, etc. And, of course the type 2 described has a history of this type of thing.
If you have a type 2, I'd say it is hopless and you should run. Easier said than done, I know.

I some times wonder about FOW...

Her BH claims she is a nutcase and always had been. Since I don't know the type of person his WW was before her A with my H, I can only guess that there must have been something good about her for him to have been married to her for so many years. H was her exit A. After H dumped her, her behavior seemed like that of a type #2...sadistic and warped. But for all I know it was an act because she felt like a fool and wanted to give off the appearance she didn't care...laugh it off so to speak.

I don't care whether she is type 1 or 2; she'll always be trash to me but I do wonder how many WW's LOOK like 2 but they are really ashamed of their behavior (#1).

I almost forgot about this question of yours.

Yes, I believe they are connected. The connection is inherent in your type two list:


1. Previous adulteries or cheated on boyfriends.

Well, they do have to start somewhere, don’t they? This type of behavior, especially in young people, starts out as a follow your heart (# 5) thing but quickly becomes a control mechanism. They can’t juggle multiple intimate relationships without learning how to be in control of each one of them. In fact, you will see young people who live this way avoid or terminate a relationship they do not feel in control of. And they quickly learn how to lie to their lovers, of course.

2. Barely recognizes her conscience.

Again, they probably had one to start with, but it is highly eroded by they time they marry for the first time.

3. Works out, feels good, sleeps like a baby.

Varies, IMO.

4. Not "head-over-heels" in love, but loves the attention.

Debatable. My wife was head over heals in love with VLTA OM, but she also likes the attention. She really likes the attention. From just about anyone.

5. "Follow your heart" IS her compass in life.

As #2 conscience erodes so does their heart. It become more of a follow their nose for attention than follow their heart. But then again, my wife loved her OM and had for a decade. It seems to vary.

6. Cries for an audience, especially when caught.

Bingo. It’s part of the love for attention and need to control. It’s part of lying and an addiction to drama.

7. May drink, do drugs, but does them to heighten her sense of pleasure.

Or any comfort substance. Food, drink, drugs, work, activities. Anything to distract their thoughts, their focus, away from their reality.

8. Feels powerful and in control.

Definitely. Control is what it is all about. Control and feelings of superiority. Her VLTA was a work place affair with another senior exec. They kind of thought of it, when they bothered to think about what they were doing at all, as a power affair not that much different from daily wheeling and dealing in lowly employees lives. Executives are entitled to do whatever they want, don't you know.

9. Loves herself. Why not?

Ehh, not so sure. 1 through 8 is so they don’t have to think about this one much.

10. Can look people straight in the eye and lie her [censored] off. Then go to bed with OM(s), then come home and kiss her BH, her children, and have a good night sleep. No problem.

It is interesting to me the order in which you put 1 through 9. They are a direct linear progression to number 10. The only one I would have moved is number 2 – to right after number 5. It may take some adulteresses longer than others but they all arrive here at number 10 eventually. And once they do they never leave. It has become by this time a life sustaining reinforcement feedback loop to number 4. By now they have no empathy left at all. And empathy is not something anyone ever retrieves once it is dead and gone.

Dunno rprynne, the thought of that terrifies me...I feel so incredibly blessed that I was caught and steps were taken by Mr. W and my mom to save me from myself...

I can say this, I have long thought that you can sometimes measure the possibility of a full recovery by the wayward's family...meaning if they have a "follow your heart" and "whatever makes you happy" attitude then you aren't likely to see a huge turn around...I could certainly be wrong about that...I just know that for ME, my mom and the moral background that she had given me played a huge role in my turn around...You know "teach a child in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it" deal...

Mrs. W

Still_Crazy ....

I started this thread to help forum members think about how they might best approach helping betrayed husbands. Applying the MB plans toward the "run-of-the-mill" wayward wife is usually pretty successful. On the other hand - if a betrayed husband is dealing with a betrayed wife from the second list ... that makes helping the betrayed husband a lot more difficult and (let's face it) controversial.

So - there you are ... I was trying to help our betrayed men, once again.

I think the biggest problem is actually getting WW's here, or to work with the MB pros.

As has been said already, many/most of them are in exit affair mode and the BH probably didn't even see it coming, so he didn't even know he wasn't meeting needs, LB'ing etc.

So even if he gets religion, even if he is a real man since that's been a recent topic, it may not even matter.

So how do you stop or slow down the typical WW and convince here there is actually far more hope for the marriage than for the affair that at the moment seems so fun and exciting.

Not even Steve Harley was able to put together a plan that accomplished that, so what is the solution?

The vast majority of (non-sociopathic) WWs are Type 1.

They may "act out" some type 2 characteristics, but in quiet moments alone, they wallow in guilt and rationalization--admitted or not.

Now this thread is bumped I don't have to go looking for it.

In a similar vein there are two types of WWs (they're usually WWs) who post on MB.

Funnily enough, the ones who are the "worst" usually turn out to be the "best". Read my early, early posts. There's enough justification and fogginess to sink a ship. All the FWWs I know here (the genuine ones) were like that. LOL, Myrta, with her first post to me "F*** off".

Then there's the other sort and we've seen a few of them lately. The appeasers, the admiration seekers, the liars. That's why I choose very carefully which WW I post to. JL, who is the best WW defoggifer in the business, has been notably absent from those threads.

Enlightened Ex, Steve Harley has indeed put a plan together which addresses WSs. That's why I'm here.

It's kind of strange you ask the question "how do we get WWs to see the light" or words to that effect. You posted on a thread from a WW the other day and basically said. "NC, get over it, how simple is that".

Of course you are right. That's how simple it should be, but it isn't. My H recognised that and knew that which is why we are still married. Steve Harley recognises that - he knows about withdrawal and fogginess. That's why that WW has now gone forever. I read and read and read and printed out all the articles from the main site. The one I read over and over was how to "get over" the A.

Good for you although i do not have any idea why you are telling me this

I will leave your threads alone if it bothers you so much that you have to call me out just for voicing my opinion.

Because you must have seen the light. Few do, wouldn't you agree? I'd say for every FWW we see here, there are another 9 or 10 that show up and reject the idea that their marriage can be improved by Dr H's plan to restore romantic love, eliminate love busters, etc.

Because that OW believed that what she was doing was wrong. So she already got it, she just had to do it.

Fine, but as I said, most WON'T read and take in that material. They reject it. They either think things won't get better, etc.

More later, gotta run.

I'll spend a little more time on this this time. It may be repetitive, so bear with me please.

I don't question that MB is a fine plan. My question surrounds how many WW's embrace the plan? I worked with Steve Harley as well. He clearly said it's far more difficult to win a WW back than it is a WH.

Why is that?

As many have said, and even Dr H alludes to it, if not outright saying it, it's because she has emotionally walled off her husband. She's already emotionally divorced him, and never even told him what she was doing.

And if you read, Dr H says you can't tell her what she's doing is wrong, you can't even expect her to admit she has hurt her husband or apologize. I'm not talking during the affair either, but after recovery is well established.

Dr H clearly says for a BH to never expect an apology from the WW.

So how do you even get a WW on board with the plan if you are to never expect her to think what she did was wrong?

I don't mean beating her over the head with, "You did this to us." But rather the normal expectation one has when they are hurt by someone who loves them. If one hurts another, they should apologize as soon as they are aware they've hurt another, AND take steps to make sure it never happens again.

If there is no reasonable expectation of this apology coming, according to what Dr H says, then how many WW's are really worth letting back into the marriage?

So how do you convince the WW to return and embrace the program? I don't know. I think that those who maintain a sense of entitlement, and/or those who cannot swallow their pride and admit that their actions were hurtful and wrong will never return and try to build a marriage.

And, in the long run, that's probably good for the BH.
It really is that simple. It's not easy, but it's that simple. There is a difference between easy and simple. Sometimes, in this medium, it's not clear.

The steps to MB are pretty simple, eliminate LB's, meet EN's and romantic love returns. However, doing that is not an easy task, as folks tend to resist change. Old habits die hard, so change takes time, practice and often patience and forbearance.

How many WW's are offering their husbands patience and forbearance while they are in their affairs? None, they are giving all of that to their lovers. Every LB by the BH is magnified out of proportion, the ones by the OM are minimized. On the other side of the scale, every attempt to meet ENs by the BH is minimized, treated with suspicion, while little notes are treated as if the OM build the Taj Mahal for her.

So it really hinges on the WW believing that what she did was wrong.

KiwiJ, I believe you did that. I believe you couldn't live with what you were doing. You looked at yourself and decided that you didn't like what you saw.

AND!!!!! you did something about it.

But how many WW's don't look at themselves. They look only at the failings of their husbands? Since their gaze is eternally outward, they never face the fact that regardless what they feel are the failings of their husband, their affair has just escalated the Love Busting to a nuclear level. What was once a low intensity conflict just went nuclear with their decision to have an affair.



Of course Steve knows. But he also knows few WWs actually respond.

I'm glad your WW is gone forever.

But please understand that your situation is not typical. Most WWs are gone forever because they become XWW, not FWWs.

I don't believe this to be accurate. I found this link discussing apologies and there is no doubt more. Since you say he's clear about it...maybe you've got something else in mind.

Mr. W

Coping with infidelity: restoring trust

Actually, it's spelled out here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5033b_qa.html


Also, in what you wrote, I notice Dr H. says the apology is not necessary, but makes things better.

He also couches his advice,


Why so soft? Only apologize "if possible, to override their Takers..." He doesn't say apology is a requirement for recovery like NC.

I don't think Dr Harley expects most waywards to apologize. He certainly doesn't require it, he only suggests apologies assist in recovery.

It might depend on which "Harley" you're talking about.

Only one "Harley" is a Dr. I don't think Steve has his doctorate.

I don't think I've quoted Steve's writings here.

I admit, I'm sometimes frustrated because Dr Harley seems to contradict himself from time to time.

Really, I believe a lot of it is who he believes can effectively deliver the message.

The WW in the state of withdraw is not going to "hear" or respond to her husbands requests, let alone demands for disclosure. But that same WW "may" listen to Dr H, or Steve, or Jennifer when they tell her that her unwillingness to be open and honest is in the way of getting her emotional needs met.

In the same fashion, the BH isn't going to want to hear from the WW how he failed to meet her needs and that's why she decided to have an affair. But that same BH may listen to expert counsel that explains how important it is to meet needs, etc.

So in many cases it seems contradictory because I believe Dr H advocates the counselor telling the respective parties the things they won't hear from their spouse, but will hear coming from the counselor.

But you have to get BOTH the WW and the BH to listen to the expert 3rd party, and I'm not convinced many WW's are willing to enter into that counseling relationship with Dr H or his team.

Enlightened X, when I said "plan" I probably meant the article which stood out to me when I first came to MB. It was a letter "how do I stop the A" or something like that. It really spoke to me. I came to MB before D-day and read but I didn't look at the forum area until after D-day. Actually, I did look at the forum briefly and couldn't work it out. I'd never seen an internet forum before and I didn't "get" what you were meant to do. I first googled "infidelity" just after the A ended. I was in a mess and I was looking for answers. The books I bought after the A really showed where my thinking was. They were "Relationship Rescue", "How to mend your broken heart", "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Separating Successfully". They really do sum up where I was at in my mind. Two books on "staying", one book on "leaving" and one book on "how do I stop being so foggy" (the "broken heart" one). Those books brought about d-day when my H found them.

This is really the long way of saying that I had hope that my marriage could be saved but I also didn't hold out much hope. I was too foggy and didn't think a) what I'd done was surmountable in terms of our marriage surviving and b) whether I'd ever find my way back to my H. It's also the long way of saying I was half way there which brings me to your point of "how do we get WWs to see the light". I was willing to listen and learn. I was desparate to save my marriage.

I've never asked the FWWs I know how they came to be here. I know that some are here at the request of their BH's. Others found their way here. I can only suggest that ALL of WSs who find themselves here read the articles on the main site.

I agree entirely that it's simple but not easy to become an FWS. I was just like all the other WSs we see. I blamed my H for "not being there", I even wrote in my letter to him in response to his (love) letter to me just after d-day that "he'd become old" (and more) then wondered why he was so upset by my letter.

Sorry, I'm going off on all sorts of tangents here, not really addressing what you've said, but I'm writing as it comes into my mind.

Most people here know that we had a second d-day when I reconnected with the OM after two years of NC. Something hit me last night like a sledgehammer. I think it was Pep who said something about people spending their time on MB joshing with their friends and doing everything but marriage building. When I first came to MB I spent all my time listening to advice (good advice), posting to people in my situation, giving BS's insight. After two years I thought I was a completely recovered FWW and had all but stopped reading any threads apart from my friends' threads. My boundaries were down, I was smug and self righteous. I'd forgotten why I was here.

I apologise again for the "stream of consciousness".

This is probably the best concise summary of how (MOST) WWs behave and the results that can be expected. As an xBH, I have lived it in full flower (and with immense frustration) and seen it with others' marriages multiple times.



I wholeheartedly agree with the last sentence. Although equally loathesome, a WH is FAR more likely to incautiously venture into an A with little/no intention of leaving his marriage; a WW is far more likely to indulge an A an escape & exit from hers and see it as "the answer" to her problems. [Dr. Frank Pittmam -- Private Lies]. It rare indeed for any previously-decent woman to abandon her home and marriage UNTIL and UNLESS there already is another man in her life to run to. It isn't about being "strong and independent" as so many of them claim. It is rare for ANY WS to voluntarily give up a romantic affair, but it is exceedingly unlikely for a WW to do so--they are enslaved by their emotions and can see nothing else.





Yes, she considers her marriage "dead" (often with little effort on her part to communicate her discontents previously). Let's face it, in most cases a WH has "more to lose" financially than a WW who sees her OM as "a rescuer". A WW also has a greater social stigma (even in this age) and therefore a greater motivation to make the A "work" and legitimize it rather than return to her BH.


This phenomenom appalls me even though I know it to be true. It seems that WWs have a tremendous sense of selfish self-entitlement in a romantic affair. That fact, stubbornness, and the above-mentioned stigma all contribute to her difficulty in admiting fault and "saying sorry". I have lived this to the fullest and doubt I will EVER hear a sincere admission and any genuine remorse from my xWW, despite her role in destroying 2 marriages and devastating children forever. She just thinks that "God wanted me to be happy" and that everyone else just needs to "get over it".



There is NO way to get her "on board". With very rare exception, she doesn't even consider this until she hits "rock bottom" -- i.e., the OM dumps her or her A-relationship becomes miserably unfulfilling and burdensome for her. I applaud fWWs, like KiwiJen, who "saw the light" on their own, but they are VERY UNCOMMON.




IMO, no WS, man or woman, is worth "letting back" without sincere repentence--they haven't learned anything without it.


I agree entirely...it's either rock bottom or hit the highway.




Most WWs don't give a hoot about "how to get over the A" because they don't want to! They don't listen to warnings about the "divorce trap" & how affairs (and affair-marriages) rarely lead to long-term compatible, blissful relationships. They brush that stuff off as "desperation" and "not understanding" on the part of the BH and firmly believe that their A is "different" and "special" and "the exception". Logic and rationality are utterly a waste of time.

My xWW called me last summer (13 months post-D and 7 months post affair-age) to tell me that she "had been so hard-headed", "had taken (me) for granted too", and "was sorry for so many things". Why, I do not not know. Maybe she was feeling a burst of guilt and shame. Maybe she had a brief moment of mental clarity. Maybe she wanted to see some validation from me. Maybe she was feeling needy after a fight/falling-out with the OM/H#2. Who knows....it meant nothing as she promptly skipped back to her "new life" and hasn't been heard from since.



Been there, done that....

You guys are depressing me......Still in the thick of it...Working with Steve and not seeing any hope yet out of my delusional WW.....see's got it all figured out and is your Type I to a tee !!!!


Great discussion just hope my WW dosen't end up being typical

Now that the quotes have been sorted out for me I'll address them properly.



I read an article on infidelity that said if a man hasn't left his spouse for the OW within 6 months they are very unlikely to. I think men can cake eat with impunity. They are better at compartmentalising and they see the A as an "addition" to marriage and not a "replacement". As a woman myself, I thought to be doing what I was doing it must have been "meant to be", "fate" etc etc blah blah


Answer to problems? No - definitely not. I was not looking for complications in my life. Quite the opposite. I wasn't actually "looking" for anything, definitely not an A. But yes, once the A became a very emotionally charged A I was completely enslaved by my emotions. It seems ridiculous now - I used to listen to music and become all teary about how star crossed it all was. Now, when I hear some of those songs I think "are you KIDDING me?".



Yes, I did this but only AFTER the A began.



No, I didn't think my marriage was "dead". Honestly, I just didn't THINK. I just FELT.


During the A, EVERYONE told me what I was doing was wrong. After d-day I CERTAINLY admitted I'd hurt my H and I apologised. Seeing his hurt was one of the worst experiences of my life. Not because of how I felt but because of what I'd done to him.


Yes, during an A WWs certainly do have a sense of self-entitlement. You say xWW. EVERY single genuine FWW on this board has made a sincere admission of remorse. Even at my foggiest I never wanted to destroy 2 marriages or devastate children (grown up children BTW). The sensible part of me that was still functioning knew I would never and could never do that.




I fear this true. The OM dumped me BTW.




Where there's life there's hope. I've seen some amazing stories here of recovery and yes, some real disappointments (including my own).

Mr. Wondering,

I read the Harley link you provided but you must also admit that he also talks about "just compensation" from the WS as well. I find it hard to accept that the WS has little to no obligation to take responsibility and repent of their A, at some point. How could any couple heal without it ALL being brought out of the shadows (on BOTH sides)?

I understand the Giver & Taker concepts and why the "taker" wants apologies and responsibility from their spouse without offering it themselves. It strikes me as the same Biblical concept as "removing the log in your own eye first before complaining about the speck in your brother's..." Dr. Gary Chapman talks similarly about "tearing down your own (emotional) wall first..."

On a personal note (and perhaps this explains my perspective), I DID ALL THIS--the accepting ownership for the preconditions of neglect that brought our "crisis" to head, including sincerity, remorse, honesty, apology, humility, genuine repentance, attempting to meet ENs, etc. I did it literally DOZENS of times in every forum possible, including in front of counselors, friends, and family on both sides. I got virtually nothing in terms of reciprocation from my WW (at the time)...only spite, scorn, and deceit. She was about as close-minded, hard-hearted, and coldly unresponsive as anyone ever has been.

Unless the A has ended (and my WW's affair was in full progress w/o my knowledge at the time), it is a waste of time. NO ONE WAS LISTENING. You simply can't restore love and and "solve" marital problems while a 3rd party is in the picture. And, whatever the BS's failings before, he/she is NOT responsible for the A! The WS CHOSE that and had other choices all along the way.

My point was that WWs tend to see their "new relationship" (the A) as the saving replacement for what they feel was a failing/failed marriage and a neglectful H. The OM is "so much better for them" than their BH. My WW told me how "it was so much better" with OM because of (insert usual foggy scapegoatings & fantasy justifications here).

I know that you (or virtually any WW) didn't wake up one morning and conciously decide "to go have an affair today". But, in effect, you DID by making yourself emotionally open to someone else when he came into striking distance.



Thus reinforcing my earlier point (thanks for the correction). If the OM hadn't dumped you, my guess is that you would very likely be an xWW now instead of a fWW.

LOL, did I leave out "is".

I don't know about that - being an xWW if the OM hadn't dumped me. By the time that happened (the dumping) I hadn't been physical in any way whatsoever with the OM since September 2002. The dumping occured in June 2003 when I hadn't seen the OM since about January 2003. Believe it or not, the whole A was killing me. I was a complete mess. Even foggy me knew that the OM was not "the man of my dreams". It was so easy to give him qualities he didn't have when I only saw him once or twice a month. I knew the reality of a relationship with the OM wouldn't stand up to the cold light of day.

My H and I finish each other's sentences, we laugh at the same stuff, we have the same outlook on life. It beats me what the OM had. I mean that seriously, I have no idea what the attraction was.

SC,

I believe the vast majority of WWs are the "type 1" that Pepperband alluded to. It is VERY hard to break up a Romantic Affair (RA) involving a WW....unless the OM dumps them, it usually has to run its course which can take years sadly. It is so emotionally rooted (and women are highly emotionally-driven creatures) That they feel compelled to "follow their heart" and believe that "how could it be wrong if it FEELS so right?". Their female friends/family/cohorts will usually echo and reinforce these sentiments to them.

Logic is a waste of time on them. They will not listen. Dr. Pittman advises BSs to simply "say your peace (to a WS involved in a RA) and then go away and do whatever you have to do to keep yourself together during this time..." This is basically Plans A & B that MB talks about. Supplicating to them, attending to them, guilting them, reasoning with them -- all completely futile.

I am sorry you are hurting so badly right now and have lived your pain and frustration and sense of "powerless-ness". Here is a link on women's infidelity that explains this issue pretty clearly:

http://www.womensinfidelity.com/

Thanks for the link...Went to amazon to buy the book , they wanted $159.00 for a used $17.00 paperbook....who would have know it would be in such demand!!!! (sure it's a typo)

Facts are Facts.....Hope my WW proves you wrong.... wouldn't bet on it though.......

Maybe Steve H. will pull a rabbit out of his hat that my WW likes before I have to pull out the plan B letter.....


She is so typical in that she has it all figured out....Has her soulmate.....thinks she can balance OM and BS and everyone will be happy..... Steve H. finds it intresting the level of disconect in a outherwise logical mind....


Don't mean to interupt your thread with my stuff....the discussion has been helpful for me.....thanks for the insite...

I will say the answer isn't in the BH convincing the WW to embrace the program. It's the WW convincing themselves.

I sometimes think the mistake that BH's make with the more difficult WW's is presenting the whole "recovered M using MB" right from the get go. "Mistake" is probably the wrong word, but it sort of creates this do or die approach, that is entirely opposite of how the WW got where they are.

Most concede that the WW didn't just wake up one day and cheat on their BH, but then are stumped when they don't just wake up another day and decide they want a recovered M.

I think that point gets missed. D-day doesn't make a WW want a recovered M.

Correct! Usually it takes the WW getting dumped by OM ... which is why EXPOSURE to OM's BW is such a great tool.

Mr Pep dumped OW immediately when I discovered the A, not the other way around. Most married OM do not really want the OW as their wife.

Mr. MF did the same thing when I found out (albeit the second time), and I also agree with the second part of this sentence.

Why do you think this is different for WWs??? From these boards it appears that MOST WHs never wanted the OW to be their wife, but why is it different for WWs?

The nature of men ... if one is good, two is better.

Ewwwww...gross.

Think of historical world culture.
How many cultures have you read about where a woman has a harem of men?

Most WH's don't want a replacement wife - whereas, I think, most (?) or many (?) WW want a replacement husband.

This is very true about WH's, mine included.

It's so interesting to me that WWs and WHs are both the same AND different in their affairs.

That is the MOTTO of any self respecting alcoholic....

Pep, that observation brings me back to recovery strategies for the type 1 and type 2 WW.

I don't have time to re-read the thread from the beginning just now, but my understanding is that you were suggesting that MB techniques stand far more chance of working with type 1 than type 2 WWs. Despite the fact that there are often overlaps in the characteristics, type 1s have put aside their normally high moral standards to have the affair. These standards can be re-invoked by the BH with some chance of success. Type 2s see nothing wrong with their lifestyle choice and so are likely to repeat the offence.

However, there has been much agreement here with the suggestion that type 1s are harder to break because in order to have the affair, they mentally leave the marriage. Your statement above supports that view. WWs are a harder case to deal with than WHs.WW are more likely to be in a romantic affair, which is often unstoppable.

So, if a type 1 is deeply enmeshed in her affair when her WH comes here, why don't you tell him to abandon all hope, grab the kids and assets and get out? Why do you think that MB techniques might be successful with this WW?

Okay, I'll reply to myself while I wait for you Californians to get out of bed.

Type 1s are often deep into the affair, feel that they are in love and want to leave the marriage.How can MB work on these WWs? What can persuade the woman who has mentally left her marriage to stay and work on recovery?

I have a feeling that very few WWs give up an OM with whom they are in love and with whom they want to leave. I think that most of the time, the OM dumps them, either upon exposure or when WW forces OM to make a choice.

If OM is married, he is very likely to be a cake-eater. However much he told WW that he loved her and wanted to be with her for the rest of his life, when exposed or forced to make a choice, he dumps her. He never wanted to leave his marriage - your H and mine, Pep. Mine dumped OW about 5 times over 3.5 years when either her H or I found out about the affair and she urged my H to run away with her. Contact finally ended when I exposed to her H and my H again told her that he would not leave his marriage, ever.

My impression is that a lot of OM in the marriages here are married, and they dump the WW, although like my H, they might start up the affair again when the dust dies down, which is why exposure is vital.

If OM is single, it is likely that he is having fun with an often older married woman and has no intention of taking on her and her children. He is like RaRa boy, or pool boy, or many others; wildly unsuitable and, unlike WW, never took the affair seriously.

We have had discussions here about the usefulness or futility of Plan A. Some argue that it leaves the BH in a worse financial, custody and emotional position than if he had issued an ultimatum on D Day, and followed through with divorce. When BHs first come here, they are given the ‘Plan A followed by Plan B’ advice by many, but a minority gives advice to issue an ultimatum and go straight to divorce if the WW does not unequivocally choose the marriage. The BH is urged to take advantage of the WW’s ‘leave it all behind’ mentality, which is temporary.

Perhaps, however, the BH's decision should depend on the results not of an ultimatum but of exposure, since ultimatums must be followed through, and could be the source of regret.

If a BH feels able to do the ‘carrot’ part of Plan A along with the ‘stick’ then they should, but a BH who cannot countenance meeting WW’s emotional needs while ‘negotiating the end of the affair’ (while she sneaks around maintaining contact, often sexual) should expose immediately and see whether OM dumps WW.

He might, of course, dump her, only for contact to resume later. The goal would be to stop WW participating in contact by pointing out the implications of OM’s behaviour to date. If she has a shred of sense left she will see how she is allowing herself to be degraded by an OM who will not take her on, but will continue to have sex with her.

I would have to say that in my sitch, my FWH did not leave the OW after i discovered the A.

As a matter of fact he left me and moved in with the other woman. Even though it was only for a weekend when i gave him the ultimatum of me or her, he chose her.

To this day (even though he says no other things that he said leads me to believe differently) i still believe that the OW did not want my H once she had him and she would not let him stay with her. It was just the thrill of the chase for her and that is the only reason he came home.

So i still think that WHs and WWs are very much alike in all respects and the differences are simply gender differences in how men and women look at "relationships" in general it has nothing to do with being wayward.

Sorry Pep i could not resist.

SC, I don't understand what you mean by "the differences are simply gender differences in how men and women look at "relationships" in general".

Surely that difference validates Pep's theory. The different ways that men and women look at relationships affects the wayward relationship as well. Hence, there will be differences in how men and women enter into affairs, and how and whether they end the affair or the marriage.

The wayward H is more likely to be a cake-eater looking for "more" while the wayward W is more likely to be a Romantic, looking for "true love". That is a very crude generalisation about men and women in normal relationships, and if it carries on over into affairs, then there will be a gender difference in affairs.

Of course some men leave their wives and some women just want the thrill, but do you think that this has been the trend for most affairs here? I would say that the opposite is true - men = cake eaters, women = Romantics.

And that is my point, in relationships in general, men are out for sex and women are in it for the emotional aspect.

So why would it be any different in an A relationship than it would be in any other relationship?

And as far as the BH/WW versus BW/WH goes i would not know for sure, there are plenty of posters on here who's husband's left them for the OW plenty, plenty, plenty.

These are the WW's that will not allow their BH to make love bank deposits, or, when the BH does make a love bank deposit she says something along the lines of:

"Well, that's nice, but you're wasting your time."

But guess what, a woman remembers ... even a foggy WW remembers.

And EXPOSURE often makes the A a heck of a lot less romantic.

Why don't I tell BH's to abandon all hope? ... Usually because I think there is hope.
I do recommend abandoning all hope if I think there is a more solid reason ... NOT just the fact that the WW is involved in a highly romanticized affair. BobPure comes to mind.

I might advise a BH to protect all assets but not abandon hope. I do not see this as giving opposite & conflicting advice.

You asked:

"Why do you think that MB techniques might be successful with this WW?"

Because she probably was a good wife at one time. She's temporarily insane. She's not permanently morally corrupt. The best indicator for this (I think) is she is highly conflicted and suffers from her conflict.

Does this answer your questions?

I think this points to the conclusion that women are generally more deliberate in their interpersonal relationships. I think like many things this has some pros and some cons.

Speaking from the standpoint of a BH trying to get a WW to committ to recovery I think it has the con of almost anything you can say, she has already "asked and answered" the question and it is not in your favor since, obviously she needs to justify her A. The pro from a BH point of view is that people who deliberate a lot also tend to re-evaluate a lot.

I'm just brainstorming, but sometimes I think its these re-evaluation periods where the BH can make inroads. However, I think many shoot themselves in the foot by acting as an "advocate" when these times come. They are advocating what they want.

People, in general, tend to respond to advocacy with advocacy. The problem with advocacy is people usually quit considering the facts and argue just to win. (This why when you tell a WS only 3% of A's make it past 5 years, they ignore that and tell you about their second cousin twice removed who's A is going strong). Aside from ignoring the facts, most people don't trust someone who is advocating. I swear, so many WW's seem to think that their BH is just trying to trick them.

Anyway, I sometimes think the BH ought to use these opportunities to ask questions (switch to "inquiry" mode), rather than advocacy. Never give an opinion, never argue for or against. I wonder if they wouldn't have better results this way. I tend to think one the "best friends" a BH has is his WW's "internal dialogue" if he can just get her to ponder some questions.

AFFAIR GENERALIZATIONS (USUALLY BUT NOT ALWAYS TRUE) ABOUT WWs vs. WHs:

1. Female infidelity (90+%) is vastly the "Romantic Affair" (RA) type as described by Dr. Frank Pittman in "Private Lies". It is very uncommon for WWs to engage in the other types of infidelity -- "accidental" (ONS), philandering, or "marital arrangements" ('open marriages').

2. RAs (no matter by the H or the W) are the most destructive type of infidelity to otherwise salvageable, serviceable, and 'good' marriages. This is because the level of emotional attachment, addictive feel-good 'high', and even 'commitment' to the OP is high and the level of emotional connection to the BS has often eroded to a very low or even non-existent point. The affair-relationships between the WS and the OP are the hardest to break.

3. Men do have 'I fell in love with someone else and out of love with my S' RAs as well. But men are far more likely than women to engage in philandering and 'accidental infidelity' (ONSs, weekenders, short-term sexual-only dalliances).

4. An 'accidental infidel' (usu. a WH) is generally easiest to reconcile and truly recover with. It is about immediate sexual gratification (and post-coital self-mortification) only.

5. If you are married to a philanderer (usu. a WH), he is someone who sees his emotionally-detached serial cheating as a 'birthright' and a 'privilege' to prove himself. He will usually promise to "not do it ever again", but almost always will. Marriage to true philanderers is largely a waste of time and you should D unless you are prepared to give up his sexual exclusivity.

6. WHs are more likely than WWs to enter their A 'incautiously' -- foolishly believing that no one will get hurt and that their W/M won't be affected much. WHs are therefore more likely to 'cake-eat' and to do it for longer. (see #s 3-5, but this is true even of WH-RAs too)

7. WWs are more likely to enter their A (almost always a RA) as an 'exit' from or 'replacement' for their M which they have come to believe 'was over anyway'. Usually the BH has/had NO IDEA that she felt that way.

8. Because of #3-7 and the human female's more emotionally driven, romantic nature (a powerful, stubborn belief that 'feelings' are the best/only guide to follow), WW-affairs are harder to break and WWs are less likely/possible to recover with.

9. The LARGE majority (>80%) of the infidelity discussed by heartbroken BSs here on MB (and the OVERWHELMING majority of those presented by the BH), are ROMANTIC AFFAIRS. The WS is convinced that they "have fallen out of love with their S and into love with the OP -- and that the OP is their 'true' soulmate and partner". They just "can't help how they feel" and are addicted to the high of being 'in love'...no matter how grave the sacrifices or long-term consequences.

10. Unless the RA is caught and Plan A/B'd early, it is very uncommon for either a WH or a WW to voluntarily (TRULY) leave their OP. A RA (esp. one that isn't discovered until it is in full-bloom) usually does not end until the OP dumps the WS OR the RA burns out naturally on its own when there is little/nothing left to sacrifice to it.

11. RAs (and all infidelity types) 'fail' at equally high rates for both male and female affairees...it is exceedingly unlikely that the affair-partners, despite their firm convictions otherwise, will go on to live "happily ever after together".

SDCWoman....this is a good list, BUT I think that you should put a caveat at the top to explain that in THIS case, "RA" refers to "Romantic Affair" rather than "Revenge Affair", as it is often referred to around here.

Because that changes the meaning DRASTICALLY!!!!

Other than that, great article and I *think* I agree with all of it!

I did--it is in item #1 above. ["Romantic Affair (RA)"]

And...I am a MAN (& xBH).

Glad it was explanatory and accurate in your view...thank you :-)

Hahaha...thanks for clarifying! I read your handle VERY differently!!!

I believe that there is a continuum which stretches from Hitler (or female equivalent) at one extreme and Mother Theresa (or male equivalent) at the the other. Hitler would be the most extreme example of a disordered personality I could think of.

Unfortunately people at each end of the spectrum are attracted to one another and many marriages are based on the opposites attract principle. In some cases I think these relationships could work but often deteriorate into a dysfunctional power struggle,

Pepperbands lists which identify types 1 and 2 are also examples of extreme opposite ends of the spectrum. It could be helpful to look at the opposite number i.e. the BH types who are typically m to those WW.

I would guess that a type 1 WW would be M to a type 2 BH and vice versa type 2 WW to type 1 BH I believe that the dynamics of the r would be crucial to the strategies employed to deal with the problems that are inherent in that particular situation

SDCWman,

I too agree with your list however i still believe that it has nothing what so ever to do with being wayward. It is just the difference in men and women in general.

I believe it is the difference in the way the genders see "relationships" in general and an A is a relationship correct? Waywardness is a whole other monster in itself.

So yes women probably enter into affairs more often because of feelings (because they generally enter into any relationship because of emotions) and men probably enter into affairs more often because of sex (because they generally enter into any relationship because of sex).

However in both cases the BS usually does not know that anything is "terribly wrong" and that an affair is either getting ready to happen or is already happening.

And in both cases it depends on a lot of things whether or not the WS returns to the marriage.

This thread has been so helpful for me.....

As I approach my plan B I have a much clearer picture of what I'm up against..... No question about it there isn't a easy way thru this mess.....

One thing that isn't talked about much is protecting your self if divorce is the eventual outcome...


The lawyer I have talked with told me that the longer I am seperated (with out supporting my WW )the greater the chance of faviorable terms in the divorce....

So Plan B becomes Two fold for me...
1) Protects me from more emotional abuse as a result of the A,and gives us our last best chance of recovery.....

2) If we are unable to reconcile I will be giving myself the best chance of a fair split of assets (of course she shouldn't get a dime)

Except when exposure doesn't work. In my case, ever increasing wider rings of exposure short of a billboard outside her apartment did nothing to destroy the affair.

Her parents knew, the OM's wife and I were in contact. Heck, even his alumni association eventually knew, not to mention more and more of her family, friends, co-workers, members at church, other parents in the soccer club, etc.

Short of buying airtime, I don't know how I could have exposed any more than I did.

It didn't matter.

Exposure it good, but it's no guarantee.

I could use some clarification as to what MYOPIA is referring to here...or of what use that would be.....please inform.

The poster seems to be suggesting that a "type 1" WW is/was probably married to a "type 2" BH and vice versa. I don't understand where this comes from or what is being communicated here. The BH HAS NOT had an affair! The WW HAS! The "run-of-the-mill" & "non-run-of-the-mill" types described by Pepperband refer to AFFAIREES, i.e. WAYWARDS! So, how does a BH (or BW for that matter) fit one of these profiles???

I must disagree. I certainly don't believe that "the list" is true in EVERY case of adultery, but it does seem to be so in the vast majority. I say this with a fair degree of confidence from (sadly) personal experience, observations of others in "real" life, observations of many others here on MB, and from numerous published sources written by experienced and respected psychologists/counselors in the field.




My point exactly...wayward-ism is VERY different than a "typical" romance. Sure, an A is a "relationship" but it is usually entered into & propogated far differently than a typical "dating" romance involving 2 single, discerning, emotionally-stable people. Last I checked, 2 people who date & fall in love (in the normal, healthy way) do NOT feel guilty, do NOT sell-out everything they have & believe in, do NOT hide/deny their romance to much of the outside world, do NOT lie, manipulate, scapegoat, and blame-shift to rationalize something they know is wrong and hurtful, etc., etc. They also do not enter into the relationship (if healthy) from a position of loneliness, neediness, self-entitlement, resentment, or attention-seeking as is so often the case with waywards. How often do you see a WS affair with someone "a huge step down" by any measure? How often do you see a WS affair with an OP that any knowledgeable observer would testify is someone the wayward would never have considered to be suitable romantic-partnership material under "normal" circumstances? It happens all the time!


From "Private Lies" ... this sums it up pretty darn well:

"Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continue living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate—someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own—is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born—any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up everything. Men in love lose their heads—at least for a while...

Any gender-based generalization is both irritating and inaccurate, but some behaviors are typical. Men tend to attach too little significance to affairs, ignoring their horrifying power to disorient and disrupt lives, while women tend to attach too much significance, assuming that the emotions are so powerful they must be "real" and therefore concrete, permanent, and stable enough to risk a life for.

A man, especially a philandering man, may feel comfortable having sex with a woman if it is clear that he is not in love with her. Even when a man understands that a rule has been broken and he expects consequences of some sort, he routinely underestimates the extent and range and duration of the reactions to his betrayal. Men may agree that the sex is wrong, but may believe that the lying is a noble effort to protect the family. A man may reason that outside sex is wrong because there is a rule against it, without understanding that his lying establishes an adversarial relationship with his mate and is the greater offense. Men are often surprised at the intensity of their betrayed mate's anger, and then even more surprised when she is willing to take him back. Men rarely appreciate the devastating long-range impact of their infidelities, or even their divorces, on their children.

Routinely, a man will tell me that he assured himself that he loved his wife before he hopped into a strange bed, that the woman there with him means nothing, that it is just a meaningless roll in the hay. A woman is more likely to tell me that at the sound of the zipper she quickly ascertained that she was not as much in love with her husband as she should have been, and the man there in bed with her was the true love of her life.

A woman seems likely to be less concerned with the letter of the law than with the emotional coherence of her life. It may be okay to screw a man if she "loves" him, whatever the status of his or her marriage, and it is certainly appropriate to lie to a man who believes he has a claim on you, but whom you don't love.

Women may be more concerned with the impact of their affairs on their children than they are with the effect on their mate, whom they have already devalued and discounted in anticipation of the affair...

Some conventional wisdom about gender differences in infidelity is true. Men are able to approach sex more casually than women, a factor not only of the patriarchal double standard but also of the difference between having genitals on the outside and having them on the inside. Getting laid for all the wrong reasons is a lot less dangerous than falling in love with all the wrong people.

Men who get caught screwing around are more likely to be honest about the sex than women. Men will confess the full sexual details, even if they are vague about the emotions. Women on the other hand will confess to total consuming love and suicidal desire to die with some man, while insisting no sex ever took place. I would believe that if I'd ever seen a man describe the affair as so consumingly intense from the waist up and so chaste from the waist down. I assume these women are lying to me about what they know they did or did not do, while I assume that the men really are honest about the genital ups and downs—and honestly confused about the emotional ones.

Women are more likely to discuss their love affairs with their women friends. Philandering men may turn their sex lives into a spectator sport but romantic men tend to keep their love life private from their men friends, and often just withdraw from their friends during the romance.

On the other hand, women are not more romantic than men. Men in love are every bit as foolish and a lot more naive than women in love. They go crazier and risk more. They are far more likely to sacrifice or abandon their children to prove their love to some recent affaire. They are more likely to isolate themselves from everyone except their affair partner, and turn their thinking and feeling over to her, applying her romantic ways of thinking (or not thinking) to the dilemmas of his increasingly chaotic life.

Men are just as forgiving as women of their mates' affairs. They might claim ahead of time that they would never tolerate it, but when push comes to shove, cuckolded men are every bit as likely as cuckolded women to fight like tigers to hold on to a marriage that has been betrayed. Cuckolded men may react violently at first, though cuckolded women do so as well, and I've seen more cases of women who shot and wounded or killed errant husbands. (The shootings occur not when the affair is stopped and confessed, but when it is continued and denied.)

Betrayed men, like betrayed women, hunker down and do whatever they have to do to hold their marriage together. A few men and women go into a rage and refuse to turn back, and then spend a lifetime nursing the narcissistic injury, but that unusual occurrence is no more common for men than for women. Marriage can survive either a husband's infidelity or a wife's, if it is stopped, brought into the open, and dealt with.

I have cleaned up more affairs than a squad of motel chambermaids. Infidelity is a very messy hobby. It is not an effective way to find a new mate or a new life.

It is not a safe treatment for depression, boredom, imperfect marriage, or inadequate gender splendor. And it certainly does not impress the rest of us. It does not work for women any better than it does for men. It does excite the senses and the imaginations of those who merely hear the tales of lives and deaths for love, who melt at the sound of liebestods or country songs of love gone wrong.

I think I've gotten more from infidelity as an observer than all the participants I've seen. Infidelity is a spectator sport like shark feeding or bull fighting—that is, great for those innocent bystanders who are careful not to get their feet, or whatever, wet. For the greatest enjoyment of infidelity, I recommend you observe from a safe physical and emotional distance and avoid any suicidal impulse to become a participant."

EE,

Thanks for that...I have often felt like I was the only one for whom "exposure" did nothing good or productive. [To be fair, my exposure came way LATE due to my own foggy denials of reality and failure to "dig" deeper while we were separated. My WW scapegoated me very well and had me (and everyone else) believing that I was a horrible, unloving H who didn't care and that she had "done everything" and just had to move on...a load of ****!]

OM's wife and kids knew, her (detached) family and friends knew, and everyone at their work (a work-affair, like so many) knew...all before I truly did. She had plenty of time to hide, deny, manipulate, and concoct elaborate false cover-stories ... and then suddenly announce their 'engagement' and affair-age plans "as soon as our divorces are final". Exposure by me didn't matter one bit...except to be turned around on me as 'irrational' and 'desperate' behavior.

I had to laugh at your mention of "church-members" because my WW dragged her (completely disinterested & utterly non-spiritual) OM & kids with her to church while we were separated. Perhaps she was trying to buy penance and assuage her guilt by tithing, acting holy, and pretending to be this happy, wholesome blended family. I heard later that she bawled her eyes out the entire service every week and quit going permanently after a few months, never to return to "the spiritual roots" she claimed to me she was trying to recapture without me. Kinda lends new credence to the old adage about "feeling as uncomfortable as a wh0re in church", huh?

And i think these quotes sum up the gender differences in question. The author even states "Any gender-based generalization is both irritating and inaccurate, but some behaviors are typical."

Although my FWH was not typical in what these quotes say. He has never discussed either the sexual or emotional aspect of the A, he has down played both aspects of the A.

His A partner is described perfectly in the first paragraph. And the second paragraph fits us as well.

And i have not had experiences IRL other than myself (no friends or family besides my two brothers who have never discussed it and both of their wives would have stayed in the marriages it was my brothers who chose to end it) so i am only judging by my experience and by those that i have read on MB (and i do not read all of them just ones that catch my eye), but it seems that there is little difference in wayward men and wayward women to me. They are both equally "a hard thing to figure out".

Well done you, SDCW-man!

"Last I checked, 2 people who date & fall in love (in the normal, healthy way) do NOT feel guilty, do NOT sell-out everything they have & believe in, do NOT hide/deny their romance to much of the outside world, do NOT lie, manipulate, scapegoat, and blame-shift to rationalize something they know is wrong and hurtful, etc., etc. They also do not enter into the relationship (if healthy) from a position of loneliness, neediness, self-entitlement, resentment, or attention-seeking as is so often the case with waywards."

Do you guys know any teenagers?

"I had to laugh at your mention of "church-members" because my WW dragged her (completely disinterested & utterly non-spiritual) OM & kids with her to church while we were separated. Perhaps she was trying to buy penance and assuage her guilt by tithing, acting holy, and pretending to be this happy, wholesome blended family. I heard later that she bawled her eyes out the entire service every week and quit going permanently after a few months, never to return to "the spiritual roots" she claimed to me she was trying to recapture without me. Kinda lends new credence to the old adage about "feeling as uncomfortable as a wh0re in church", huh?"

My wife did a similar thing during her VLTA. She took RCIA classes and converted even. All while running her adultery at normal tilt.

Pep, I remember you writing your H did somewhat the same thing.

When I asked her why she would do such a thing she said something to the effect it all felt good in different ways and maybe she was searching. Note the maybe. She used that word. Like she couldn’t know for herself.

One must be, has to be pretty far along the road to perdition to think like that, to live for a decade like that. It mocks everything good.

Sorta - kinda ....

I was doing RCIA and H was my sponsor while he was a WH and was a WH when he stood at my baptism

I did not find out until later and boy was i

This wayward church attendance thing is rather interesting. In my sitch, OWH is RC, while OW was Jehovah's Witness. Their DD went to catholic school, and OWH took her to church, but OW never participated in any of her religious education. When OW moved in with my WXH, she suddenly started dragging the 2 of them to RC church every weekend - to OWH's church no less. Naturally, they have welcomed WXH into their fold with open arms, pushing OWH aside as a typical WS does (though he still attends). But DD's first communion is coming up and now OWH is finding out that OW wants WXH to be present and part of the ceremony as her "true father". Yes, it's been 2 years and she's still adamant about reparenting both of our kids (mine is 21 and she expects a mothers day gift!!!). I don't know what the church is going to say, but depsite what they say about adultery I have yet to see the RC church so much as acknowledge an adulterous relationship as such. There are posters here who have been tossed from their church in favour of their WS's and OPs. And neither OW or WXH is even catholic!!!!

I would agree that there are many, many commonalities regarding romantic affairs, whether the subject in question is either male or female. Believe me, I am not giving either a "pass" or arguing that either is less irrational, less hurtful, less destructive, or more easy to "figure out" for the BS.

But there are a few key differences that TYPICALLY apply more often to one gender or another.

1. Few would argue (and the Harley's admit) that a WW is generally MORE difficult to R with than a WH.
2. There are STILL social stigmas that make a married female's affair somewhat less "acceptable" than a male's (unfairly so, I admit).
3. Women who "fall in love" with someone outside their M do so generally with a subtly different set of initial motivations and erroneous self-deceits than men do.

And so on...there have to some important differences in commonly-observed female vs. male infidelity to account for the phenomenom described in #1 above, that's all.

I certainly wasn't referring to teenagers in "puppy love" when describing how emotionally healthy, stable, single adults normally meet and bond to their future spouse. You are right--affairees often behave with the same irrationalty, lack of discernment, and foolish beliefs that are in play when some teenie falls head over heels for his/her teacher.

The difference is that the teenager has far less ability to indulge and solidify these "feelings" and probably isn't hurting anyone (except themselves) since they are NOT MARRIED.

The same mindset is there, but not the same potential in most cases for devastation.

Interestin phnomena, this sudden interest in religion or spirituality. During her affairs, my wife began meeting witha bunch of her girlfriends each Saturday for what she called her "spititual group". It was laughable as it was merely a social event with lots of gossiping and partying.
My Xw is the world's bigggest hypocrite. On his deathbed, my dad( really street and book smart) took me aside and told me " I havc never met a more insicere person than your wife." (He then added,"she's homely, too.")

Sadly bumping this thread.

What motivation makes a WW want to recover?
Getting caught again?
Plan B?
Getting a slice of reality pie?
Consequences?

... just chewing the cud here.... runimating if you will.

I haven't read this entire thread, but I can at least attempt to answer Pepperband's questions. Of course, I can only answer them for myself. Other FWW's may have very different answers.

1. Getting caught (again): Didn't pertain to my situation. My H never "caught" me, since I confessed everything on my own. I never was a good liar, so I didn't even attempt it.

2. Plan B: We never went there, so I don't know. But I certainly see how it could work if there were still some honest feelings there. One night during the thick of my A, my H decided not to come home from work. He called and left a message telling me he wouldn't be home for the weekend, didn't even tell me where he was going or when he would be back, wouldn't answer his cell phone. It freaked me out. I thought he might not ever come back. Even that little bit of being cut off scared me.

3. Slice of reality pie: This was the big one for me. At first, the life I imagined with OM was pure fantasy and fun, but once I really started thinking about it realistically, the grass wasn't looking all that greener on the other side. I started realizing what I would have to give up to be with OM (my kids, my family, my entire life) and it just didn't seem worth it anymore. Also, there was the loss of that life I had planned with my H for so many years. That hit me hard - thinking about all of the things we'd talked about doing, places we wanted to go, dreams we shared - and realizing that none of it would happen if I left. It made me terribly sad. I think for me, that reality pie really was the thing that ultimately ended my A. When it came right down to it, OM just wasn't worth the sacrifice.

Consequences: Not sure what sort you're asking about. For me, most of my consequences were pretty much self-induced. I think my biggest consequence was horrible, terrible guilt. That one certainly got me.

I'd say the things that make WW want to recover:

1. Relationship with OP dropping into Conflict from Intimacy. If this doesn't happen, you're [[censored]]. To me, that's the mail purpose of the "stick" part of Plan A: to encourage that loss of intimacy between affair partners. And then there's the carrot part:


2. Relationship with BS rising from Withdrawal to Conflict, or from Conflict to Intimacy. If BS can get to a similar level as OP -- whatever that is -- then there's a good chance BS can "win" in the WS's mind (history together, proximity, children, home, financial stability... whatever, there are all kinds of things that can help a BS win a WS back, and that gives a BS the upper-hand and home-field-advantage versus many OPs.) To me, that's the point of the "carrot" part of Plan A: this spouse was in love at one time, and may yet be again if the Love Bank balance continues to rise.

I dunno, does a D-day make a wayward more wayward? I mean, it's usually this tremendously negative thing filled with Love Busters on both sides...

Interesting, writer. Are you saying that without the attendant losses you mention, you would have actually preferred the OM to your husband? Did you find him more desirable?
How does your H feel about it?

Beautiful summary for the reason for Plan A and Plan B: to help the wayward see how much the marriage is worth, and how much the wayward stands to lose. People don't typically stop affairs out of altruism. They stop them out of fear, and then later apply altruistic reasoning to the decision.

Thank you for being so honest, writer1!

Zelmo: Please read #3 again. It wasn't just the loss of children, family, friends, etc. that brought me back. It was also the loss of the life I had planned with my H. What really brought me back was the fact that I simply couldn't imagine a future that did not include my H, and I could imagine one without the OM. I had 14 years of history with my H, and I wasn't willing to give any of that up in the end.

Yeah, I understand. But, it seems so unromantic, like a cost/benefit analysis.
I think this has always been a problem for me with some of the MB concepts. They just seem so calculated.
What I am trying to say is wouldn't a BS want to be loved/desired for his or her core self, rather that an assesment of strengths vs weaknesses?
Maybe I am not understanding this, writer. But, your decison seemed to rest on looking at things other than your H's intrinsic value. I understand the allusion to the life with your husband.Maybe that includes things like his warmth, or sense of humor, or kindness etc.
But, the way you state it, it could also mean things like his earning potential, loss of certain worldly possessions, or access to the country club, etc.
I would not want my wife back if these were the reasons for her return. I'd feel like she did not really love me and her decision was based on factors other than who I am as a person.

I find it particularly poignant that rprynne was describing, without knowing it, his own WW.

He had such great insight. He changed my thoughts on the "two types of WW" that Pep originally proposed. Many of us here, including FWWs, started off agreeing that there were two types. The first had a conscience and felt badly about what she was doing. With intervention, it was suggested, a BH had some chance of ending the affair and recovering his marriage. The second type was entirely free of conscience and chose adultery as a lifestyle. She might or might not wish to leave her H, but would certainly continue in her affair(s) lifestyle for as long as she could get away with it. The implication was that the BH of this type had lost before he even knew he was fighting a battle.

rprynne argued that there were not two types; that most WW progressed from having a conscience to having none the longer her affair(s) continued. The implication remained that, after a long affair (or series of affairs, or false recoveries) the BH would have little chance of ending the affair(s) and recovering his marriage.

These accute observations came out of the mouth of the babe who did not know the real truth of which he spoke. That is heartbreaking.

Zelmo: If you're thinking I came back for the money, think again. We are not well-off by any means. In fact, it's pretty darn likely that a bankruptcy looms in our future. Country club? You've got to be kidding me. We live in a tiny 3-bedroom home in a neighborhood that barely passes for marginal. My H is currently in customer service and going back to school to become a teacher. Not great paying professions, I'm afraid.

I was indeed talking about his intrinsic values. My H is funny, compassionate, caring, and sensitive. He loves kids and always manages to maintain a positive outlook on life, even when things look very grim. He makes me laugh and he cries whenever we watch a sad movie. He gets up every morning at 4:30 to drive 50 miles to a job I know he doesn't like, just to support his family.

Did I do a cost/benefit analysis? You bet I did. OM left his family (wife and 2 daughters) 3 weeks after our A began and never looked back. All he ever talked about was how he didn't feel guilty or bad about what we were doing because we were soul mates and it was meant to be and blah, blah, blah. He cared far more about his own happiness and fulfillment than he did anything else. My H, on the other hand, didn't walk away, even when it would have been easy for him to do so, even when I told him that I didn't want to be with him anymore. He spent 6 mos. loving me, even when I didn't deserve it, executing a pretty darn effective Plan A with remarkably few LB's. He listened to what I was saying about all of my EN's that weren't being met in our M (and there were a lot, mostly tied to his earlier 10-year EA with his ex-girlfriend) and he made a lot of changes in himself. He did everything he could to save our M and let me know how much me and our family meant to him. I compared the two, and it wasn't difficult to figure out who was the better man.

Ultimately, I stayed because I loved my H. I never stopped loving him, the entire time I was involved in my A. It was easy to see that once the fog started to clear.

I think waywards stay, or come back, ultimately because they choose to. I think the betrayed can have a profound effect upon that choice. That is why I think MB is effective. The techniques affect the choices that waywards will make.

Glad to hear you love your H , writer, and that it was that that motivated you to come back. Hard to understand the oft presented wayward assertion that the Ws never stopped loving the BS, though. Of course, that is not susceptible to verification form the outside, and everyone's definition of what constitutes love differs.
I think there are differnet types of WSs. I think of the personality disordered ones as a different breed, not really susceptible to the MB methods. These folks leave you with nary a second thought. You are disposable, a source of supply. Once the jig is up with them, and they know you are on to them, you are done. Kids, family, debts, responsibilities-they just walk away.

writer- you probably answered this somewhere else but I forget. Forgive me if it's too personal: Whose name is on the OC's birth certificate, and if it's the OM's, do your other children know about that?

Zelmo: I think there probably are different types of waywards, just like there are many different types of people. And I know, it's hard to accept that a wayward never stopped loving their BS. For me, it was true. I even told the OM, literally at the very start of our A, that I still loved my H. A's do weird things to your head, to say the least, and after the start of my A, I started to believe that I was in love with the OM too. I thought I loved them both. It didn't occur to me that my feelings for the OM were anything but love and that I had never even considered the fact that I might be in love with him before we slept together. We were friends, but after the A started, I thought I was in love with him. I realize now that it wasn't love.

imanotherone: My H's name is on the birth certificate. My kids do know about the OM. They know he is the biological father. He isn't a part of our OC's life and has never even seen her. We intend to tell her the truth when she is old enough to understand and let her decide for herself if she wants to meet her biological father when she's an adult.

Slice of reality pie lead to my confession:

New Year's Eve at a small party, just after the Big Ben Chimes, when I couldn't bring myself to kiss my H Happy NY, I suddenly really realised how wrong I was. That is when the real guilt hit in and I started thinking "He doesn't deserve this" I felt really sad about what I had put him through. (up until this point in the party I had been nipping off to the loo to text OM frequently). And he looked so so hurt when I didn't make a move to give him a kiss like the other couples were. I felt sick.

I had already been feeling guilty about neglecting my kids to spend time with OM. And incredibly stressed about leading a double life.

writer- thanks for sharing. It's good to know you guys don't have any "big secret" that the kids will all discover one day by rooting around in the attic. Conflict avoider types would have probably said "oh, the kids don't need to know." And as you know, kids always seem to figure it out anyway....

Man, writer. I don't know if even an A could make me that far gone. Let me run this through my feeble brain: I am cheating on my wife, something I know with certainty will haunt her and cause her pain forever. But, I love her.
Yeah, something would definitely have to be messing with my mind to sell myself that one.
In reality, I think I would feel more secure if my cheating wife told me she hated my guts , so she cheated. I could understand that better.

Let me give you a little background. For 10 years (starting 1-week after our wedding) my H was involved in an on-again, off-again EA with his ex-girlfriend. They were together for 3 years and he wanted to marry her, but he was young and she came from an abusive family, so she left him for someone 10 years older than her who could support her and get her away from her family. After going through many false recoveries and much lying, my H finally decided to end the EA. However, we didn't really deal with the A, we just sort of swept it under the rug and tried to go on. It didn't work. My A began 3 years after the end of my H's EA. I loved him, but I wasn't at all sure that he loved me, not in the way I wanted him to. I wasn't sure he ever could. I felt very much like #2 in his heart. He said he loved me, but I was living everyday with the fact that he spent 10 years of our M still in love with someone else. That hurt, more than anyone could ever imagine. In many ways, my M felt like a mirage, since he married me knowing he still had feelings for someone else.

At the time I had my A, my H and I were still suffering from a great deal of the poison from his long-term EA, which we had never dealt with. We were fighting all the time. We weren't meeting each other's EN's at all. He was still suffering from a lot of guilt from his EA. He had convinced himself that he just couldn't make me happy and was encouraging me to join an online dating service and find someone who could. I thought he was saying these things because he didn't really care about me, not because he felt guilty and inadequate. I still loved my H, but I was lonely and tired of feeling like #2. There was so much miscommunication and missed opportunities.

After my A began, I expected my H to just walk away. I thought that's what he wanted. I thought he wanted out. Instead, he shocked me completely by staying and fighting for our M. When I saw how hard he fought, I finally started to believe that he really did love me, the way I had always wanted him to.

This really resonates, writer. Thanks for sharing.

My WW has on multiple occasions said that she thinks I've sabotaged the M at times because she thinks there's a part of me that doesn't want to be married. That deep down, TB wants out. Yes, I should be wary of "WW-speak", but then again, MY actions should illustrate what I truly want. Cut and run? Well, maybe then her comments regarding sabotage were dead on. Stay and fight for the M in the face of adversity and anguish? Well, that certainly paints a different picture.

Thanks again,
TB

But that is at the heart of how we actually make our decisions on who to love, isn't it? If you have a strong need for an attractive spouse, you will fall in love with people who are very attractive. If you have a strong need for openness and honesty, you will fall in love with people who wear their hearts on their sleeves. If you have a strong need for financial support, the ability of a partner to meet those needs will help you fall in love with them.

Is physical attractiveness part of who you are inside? No, of course not. It's only skin (and perhaps bone) deep. But it dictates who falls in love with you based on that attribute. I absolutely love this philosophy because it just makes so much sense in a world of dating and marriage advice that seems designed to be confusing.

The thing I love about the MarriageBuilders program is that it's empirical. Dr. Harley bases his program on things that actually work in real life for a lot of people and minimize failure rates.



It's not as rational as that, I think. It's hard to be aware of the process, you know?


I think this has a lot to do with your emotional needs. Warmth == affection, sense of humor == communication, kindness == possibly domestic support or family support.

Similarly, earning potential == financial support, access to country club == recreational companionship, no? Sure, we commonly regard a number of emotional needs as shallow, particularly "attractive spouse" and "financial support"... but if the love bank balances of people go up when they meet those needs for you, they are still legitimate needs that should not be discounted out of any altruistic or religious dogma.

"It's not who I am inside, but what I do that defines me." --Batman



I'm certain my wife doesn't just love me for who I am as a person. She loves me for what I do.

By the way, I am in no way trying to make excuses for my A. No matter the state of the M, an A is never the answer. There are much better ways I could have and should have handled my problems. My A was a horrible, terrible mistake. It hurt a lot of innocent people and it was wrong.

I was just trying to share where my head was at during the time of my A.

I understand what you are saying, Barnboy, and I agree. So, if we follow that, however, what happens if a better looking /better earning/better sense of humor option comes inot your spouses life, say at work? Some guy that does not have all the energy sapping duites of providing for kids, paying bills, working one's butt off?
See, that is what happened to me, although I think I am smarter and better looking, and I clearly make more $$ than the OM.
But, with the advantage of being younger, single, and unencumbered by responsibilities, this guy was more attractive. So, the cost benefit deal went in his favor and there was squat I could do about it. Moreover, I don't feel that I should have been required to do anything about it. Should i quit my job so i could spend hours at the gym or run around at the bar at night and be the life of the party?
I think BSs are at such a disadvantage to the AP if their WS does not have the depth to have more than a mere cost/benefit analysis re the superficial stuff.
How does a woman that has had 4 kids compete with some young super model if her H is big on attractivenss in his analysis/ Why get married if it is just a cost/benefit deal, as there will always be someone that has more benefit and less costs somewhere.

Perhaps. I would say that I was arguing against making what is known as a fundamental attribution error, which is a fairly common cognitive bias.

Isn't all cognition biased?

That's exactly the fight I fought. He was on sabbatical and had all the time in the world to chat my wife up one to three hours per day late at night.

He met my wife's top emotional need: intimate conversation. He met it better than I could because he was there. Ultimately, competing with him met meeting that need, among others, better than he possibly could. My FWW returned to me in spirit, but it was a close thing for a month after D-Day.

This is why part of Dr. Harley's recommendation is to only allow our spouses, among all members of the opposite sex, to fill our needs for intimate conversation, recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment, and affection. Those four tend to deposit so many love units that it's easy to fall in love with the person providing them.

In a more general sense, in Surviving An Affair, Dr. Harley advises that you make it easy for your spouse, and relatively difficult for others, to deposit love units. To me, that encompasses the philosophy of committing to a marriage: for the rest of your life, you make it hard for anybody other than your spouse to deposit enough love units for you to fall in love with them.

This is the purpose Extraordinary Precautions, you know? They should be in place for couples who haven't yet had an affair, as Dr. Harley outlines in "His Needs, Her Needs". If you know you have a strong need for an attractive spouse, you do not make friends with very attractive members of the opposite sex. If you know you have a strong need for financial support, you do not become close friends with wealthy members of the opposite sex.

Know your strengths. Know your weaknesses.


No, but you can determine her top five emotional needs, your top five emotional needs, and fill hers as hard as you can while not allowing other people to fill the top five that your spouse fills.

That's the point of putting in good personal boundaries, extraordinary precautions against an affair, meeting one another's needs, and avoiding Love Busters: to ensure that NOBODY is more attractive to you than your spouse.

Ditto

That's fine, Barnboy, as far as it applies to me. But, one cannot force another to impose those boundaries on herself,although clearly she should. One cannot force another to let you meet her needs when you are constantly pushed away. Of course, IMO,I was dealing with a wife who is NPD or BPD or some combo platter. Your mileage may vary.

Psychiatric problems/conditions are not found on the outcome bell curve when implementing MB Plans.
((( hugs 4 Zel )))

Definitely outliers...

Normal distributions don't apply to those things that are not normal.

I agree with you Z....WHY DO THESE PEOPLE GET MARRIED?...When I married My H, there were better options out there for me and for WH. For me I was done looking and once I married my H, that was it for me, I loved HIM.....When he worked out, when he didnt, when he made good money, when he didnt, when he met my needs and when he didnt...There is always someone better out there...Do we really have to spend our lives worrying if our spouses are gonna meet someone better and leave their family...We get older, have more responsibilites, have children and are not always at our best or worst....

Sorry if I went off a little, but this really pisses me off....

Harley's emotional needs theory can be applied perfectly along with a timeline of my exWW's descent into madness with the POSOM.

Summer 2007 - Winter 2008 - POSOM would come over and help my exWW with her horses, or exWW would help POSOM with his horses. Thus POSOM was beginning to make deposits into exWW's recreational companionship account

Winter 2008 - Spring 2008 - POSOM and exWW started to spend hours from about 8pm - 1am working with breeding my exWW's ponies. Plus, POSOM was in all sorts of legal trouble with his dad. Now, Recreational Companionship is ratcheting up, intimate conversation is getting started. Also, 8pm -10pm was the time exWW and I usually spent together nightly. Now, that time is being monopolized by POSOM. At this point, the recreational companionship LB is being filled quickly by POSOM, and conversation is starting to get a positive balance. Meanwhile, my account with exWW is starting to drain.

June 2008 - POSOM moves into our tenent house. POSOM knows exactly what he is doing. He watches me for a week, learns my domestic support routine. THen, he does what I usually do around the house and farm. Except, he tells exWW how he does it better than me. As I sit around the house surfing the internet since I don't have anything to do, POSOM is planting stuff in exWW's head how I am a lazy bum and do nothing. Now, he is totally monopolizing exWW's time and overtly keeping her away from me.


They would go out on moonlit horse rides while I was sitting watching TV. ExWW wouldn't come into the house until 1 or 2 am. For example, the few times during July 08 that exWW wasn't with POSOM late at night, POSOM would knock on the door of our house and tell exWW there was something wrong with a horse or he heard some horses fighting. By the time exWW came back to the house, she was in a VERY different mood. Now, the recreational needs banks is overflowing, the conversation EN is overflowing, the domestic support EN is filling fast, and possible the SF EN is starting to fill. It's hard not to see why - POSOM is spending 20 hours a day with exWW and I am only spending about 1 hour with her.


July 24 2008- exWW lays into me for getting her up late for the DE State Fair Horse Show. I show up after jury duty (all week exWW is chewing me out for not getting out of Jury Duty). ExWW is madder than a hornet. She is cursing out DS6, and every 10 minutes or so she goes and hangs out with POSOM at the horse trailer. After the kids are done showing, the original plan was for POSOM to take the horses back to the farm and the 4 of us to ride the rides at the fair. ExWW is supposedly so mad at me she decides to go home with POSOM. I take the kids on the rides at the fair in a precursor to what my life with them is now. I am convinced that they consumated the affair that night.

July 25th - I get my scheduled vasectomy. ExWW and I had been joking about it for weeks. I call her after the surgury to come pick me up and she says she forgot all about it.

July 26th - exWW is absurdly horny. Unfortunatly, my tools were broken so to speak from the day before. I spent about 2 hours using other methods on her to no avail. The events from the state fair and this night has me convinced that the affair went physical on July 24th.

July 27th - we go shopping at Target. ExWW takes me into the dressing room with her to try on some VERY racy lingerie to see how I like it. We head to the pharmacy aisle and we decide to sample some of KY's newest offerings to enhance intimacy. She gives me the sly smile and tells me there are other ways...I'm thinking HOT DAMN!!!!

That night, POSOM calls again and exWW goes out with him at about 10pm. I sit in bed for a couple of hours, fall asleep, wake at 3am. No exWW. I go outside, check the tenant house - no exWW or POSOM in the tenant house. I yell for exWW. 10 minutes later she comes walking down from the top field. 1st thing she says is POSOM is in the tenant house. She then tells me that one of the horses was colicing and she was with her. We go to bed and I ask her if she wants to do what we planned. She says she is sore down there.

The next night she asks for a divorce. The affair is complete. POSOM is meeting Rec Companionship, Conversation, Domestic Support, and SF. I am meeting none. I'm able to put a lot of this together because everything happened right in front of me. POSOM was a relative, much older, and was thus the perfect cover. It's also an example of the power of gaslighting. Every time I would ask exWW why she was spending so much time with POSOM, she would say he's my cousin, he's a relative, etc, etc, etc.

psubiker,thanks for sharing this - it makes such perfect sense (a timeline is something I am particularly struggeling with in my situation) - I am so sorry though it happened right in front of you

No, not by definition. But yes, virtually all people are subject to various cognitive biases.

The fundamental attribution error is also known as the actor-observer bias. A simple example of an actor-observer bias would be say that I observe a person working on there car every weekend. He's always out there working on his car. What explains this behavior. Say I conclude he is just a "gearhead". This is potentially a fundamental attribution error, in which I attribute the behavior to the man's disposition.

Another completely plausible explanation is that he is a traveling salesmen and must make long drives during the week, and the reason he is working on his car is to ensure the tire pressure is fine, plenty of fluids, etc. It is his situation that drives the behavior, not his disposition.

Actor-oberver bias tends to show that people, when they are the actor in a behavior tend to put more weight on the situation as an explanation of behavior. It further shows that when people are the observer, they tend to put more weight on the disposition of the actor as an explanation of the behaviore.

This thread started by saying their are two different dipositions of WW's that can be indentified from a list of their behaviors. And this may in fact be true. But it is also equally plausible that there behaviors can be explained by the actors being in different situations.

The only reason I even ponder this, is because I think it's pretty important in determining whether recovery is possible or what type of recovery is possible. Because the question we all struggle with when considering our WS's is are they just a cheater (disposition) or did they cheat because of the situation. If it's the former, then I fear their is no hope, if it's the later, then addressing the circumstances behind the cheating will address the issue.

Indeed.

Does this understanding help you find answers to your own situation?

Intersting. But, doesn't the decision to put oneself in a certain situation say something about one's fundamental character?
For example, the man's decision to be a travelling salesman in the first place, which, therefore requires he check tires etc. would seem to indicate that tire checking and the like may be things he does not mind doing.

Yes

It could.

I think the best way to determine if it is situational or intrinsic character is to see what they do after D-Day, long term. A person with a conscience, even if he or she has behaved abominally, will, at some point be bothered enough to acknowledge the pain he or she has causesd others.
Of course, this does not help when trying to determine who you are dealing with during an affair and for a time thereafter.
4 years post discovery for me and I have yet to see one sign of remorse. Guess I got it right.

Yesterday, I watched a DVD of George Clooney's latest movie,
Up In The Air.

It reminded me of this thread.

Has anyone else seen this movie?

What did you think of the woman he got involved with?
Were you surprised?

NOT SO RUN OF THE MILL !

Can't watch Clooney since he beat me by three votes in the sexiest man of the year competition a few years ago. I still cannot beleive I lost to this guy.

Me neither.

Paul Reubens, I would not mind losing to. But, Clooney....

Pee Wee has a new stage show opening in Vegas, BTW.

Correction: the show is opening in L.A. hehhhe, hehhe.

I saw this movie and said to myself before she even came to the door, I know what he would find. It was a good movie though. I may not have liked it as much if I knew what was going on before hand though. George is so hot!

I do not understand the George Clooney appeal. He just seems like a playboy with a big ego. But to each his own. I never liked Tom cruise either. I'm more of a tall, salt and pepper hair, soft around the middle, brown eyes, Bronte hero looks kind of girl. (oh, wait, I married that guy!!)

Zelmo......all I can say is, "I know you are but what am I???"

It's not his personality I'm looking at

Me too!
Just as he was looking up at the house, I thought; "NOT a single woman's home."




I liked it for many different reasons.
Shows what deception looks like.





Should be illegal, his hotness.
Even my 20-year-old DD says; "Mom, he's soooooooo handsome."

Yes that was a great example of real deception. I had gotten kind of wrapped up in the "connection" they seemed to have not knowing what was coming. She seemed beautiful, funny and smart. Then, when she opened that door, she was just a low life, ugly person.

Same as how once you know what your WS has done your visual perception of them totally changes. Isn't that interesting? Because, other than maybe looking haggard, they really haven't changed physically.

BUMPING up for any WW who had 2 adulteries within the first year of marriage .

Pep,

I read this thread because POSOW that I loved dearly and trusted so much fits into the sad, sad category of "Not so Run-of-the-Mill"....I found out that BaT was her 2nd affair less than one year into her M. BaT thinks there may have been a 3rd (in between the 1st one and BaT).

I remember so clearly the day OWH found out about the 1st guy...OW cried and told me that they were "just friends" and that it "looked bad" but that she hadn't done anything wrong. I defended her, consoled her, thought that OWH was crazy jealous.

Oh oh oh, when the scales fall from your eyes....

My favorite responding post ... SugarCane correcting my spelling.

Miss SC~~~> <~~~ Old Pepster

Is there anything to a WW having a female friend who supports/enables/facilitates the affair?

My girlfriend before my wife cheated on me as well. She had a really good friend/bad influence in her life that I believe supported her decision to cheat.

My WW, same thing. A really tight female friend that pretty much gave WW the go-ahead she needed.

Without these female friends acting like a support group, I wonder if they would have cheated. My WW, in particular.

hmmmmm.....this whole list describes Opt's STBxWW, especially #5. Its her mantra in life.....

Good point on the female friend. My WW BFF is single and has a new fling every other weekend. My wife ofted fantasized about living the single life again. She was very close to losing her family and fullfilling that goal.

In my opinion, an enabling friend provides additional justification/rationalization to do the wrong thing , to commit adultery, to break their spouse's heart ...

But, in my opinion, an enabling friend is not the primary reason someone permits themselves to cheat.
People of low moral character do not require high moral character in their friends.
People of low moral character, are more comfortable with friends who "go along" without raising objections or questions about "right" or "wrong".

Right, you surround yourself with the people you are comfortable with. A person of low moral standards hangs out with people of the same calibur.

The "follow your heart" thing, is very reminiscent of my 1960's and 1970's "wisdom".
"If it feels good, do it."
I'm not sure if this was primarily due to the "hippie" times, or if it is just a common philosophy of youth.

Ignore SC.

She's really up herself, I always think.

Oh, this whole post is getting to me. My WH's OW (who was also a WW) is #2. I know from what WH has told me that OW tells him to follow his heart and not to listen to people whose opinions are biased against her (which is everyone I think). WH says to me that he "thinks" he loves OW so he has to go try it with her, that he owes her something. As if he doesn't love me and owe me and his two children something? He thinks he is leaving us for "true love".

Agree.

IMHO, it's not so much about friends that are enabling or bad people. From what I've noticed, most people tend to play "fast and loose" with other people's lives. Not neccessarily out of any evil character, but that they expect you will have and enforce your own boundaries. It is much like when a friend encourages you to stay and have one more drink at a bar. They aren't trying to get you a DUI, they just assume you will have the fortitude to quit when you need to quit.

I also think many people have wrongfully assumed that being a friend means "supporting" whatever decision another person wants to make, regardless of how stupid they think it is.

While the enabling friend may not be the primary reason, in both cases (with my WW and xGF), neither cheated � even though they may have wanted to � until they started spending more and more time with the enabling friend. Could the enabling friend be just that little bit of extra support they need to push them over the edge to betrayal?

In my opinion, there IS a difference between:

A life compass
and
An adultery compass

If a wayward has a "follow your heart" compass DURING an affair, ... it's just your standard adultery bullchit. (part of the fog)

What I was talking about is a person (an adult person) who lives by "follow your heart" .... even when not in an adulterous affair.

I think it is more of a soon-to-be-wayward seeking out opinions to support their desire to cheat.
The same person will reject friends/opinions that advise them NOT to cheat.

It is 100% the cheaters choice of listening to adultery-enabling friends.
Not the other way around.

TRUE TRUE

People have been told it's wrong to make judgments about others.

I think it goes both ways. When I was suffering from my ex-wife's affair, I was glad my best friend was there for me. But I also let him and his wife know that if he ever did this sort of thing to her, I would not go easy on him.

Friends don't just go along. You either convince your wayward friend to change, or your change the nature of your relationship with the wayward.

If my best friend became a wayward, I'd try to talk him out of it. Should he choose the affair over the values we both grew up to embrace, I'd tell him that I'll be there when he ends the affair, but I cannot be close friends with someone who would do this to his family.

That's what being a friend is all about. Not just going along to have a friend. But NOT going along when your friend is obviously harming those around him.

T� an l� �lainn Gaeilge, mo chairde.

Something about a beautiful Irish day or whatever. Irish is tough.

It also might be a "Beautiful Irish girl drinking beer, my friend."

Mr. Rogers wants to know.

Larry

FWIW, today is my best friends B-day, and of course, his first name is Patrick. Last name is Irish, but withheld to protect the innocent.

I don't know much about Gaelic though.

There's a song lyric by the group Plants and Animals that goes:

"It takes a good friend to say you've got your head up your *ss"

I love that idea of friendship.

Unfortunately, it seems like my WW's oldest and dearest "friends" are more of the, "I'll support you whatever decision you make" types. They don't realize the wayward is acting completely irrationally, or are too afraid to lose them as friends by telling them they will not support their wrongful actions.

Would these "friends" support them if they were destroying their family by using heroin or cocaine? No.

But for some reason, it's okay to support someone while they destroy their family with adultery, because the wayward tells them they've been unhappy for so long.

They don't believe she is destroying her family.

In most places, she'll get the house and the kids. Dad really isn't considered part of the family. Most times, dad is considered a problem (not true, but that's the cultural bias.)

So few would really consider a WW's actions as destructive to the family. She'll take the family with her and probably even get money from the dad every month.

But if HE has an affair, HE's destroying the family.

Double standard.

None of the guys I know would sit idly by while a friend of theirs had an affair. That's the kind of men with which we associate.

These are her "oldest and dearest" because your wife is at their level.

100 % disagree.

PLEASE, start your own thread if you want to discuss this particular topic.

Agree again.

I think what you are describing is that it's not so much what is actually being said to the WS, as it is what the WS is hearing.

Sorry, Pep. Turning out to be a bigger issue than I thought. Will start it as a new thread.

Well, if her friends are going along, their actions indicate they don't believe she is destroying her family. Or to give some benefit of the doubt, they've not considered that aspect.

I'm not saying the collection of folks here would agree with such an assertion. But the Oprahfied, Cozmo addicted folks cheering on Brad and Angelina probably don't see such an action as the destruction of a family.

And I'm afraid those folks way outnumber the MB crowd.

We are our own micro-climate for the family and marriage here, lest we forget.

Yep, which is why I pointed out Opt's WW. She touting this silly nonsense even though she's not currently in an "active" affair.

This is some good stuff. It reminds me of when H was in his affair and he was spouting this kind of nonsense. He told DD16 (she was 14 at the time) that when somebody loves someone they would do WHATEVER they could to make the other person happy. When she related this story to me, she finished by telling me, "Mom, if he really believes that then he must not love me because him doing this to US does NOT make me happy.....".....

Ya know, I'm on spring break this week and it would make me very happy to NOT do any laundry......

Pep, I started the Enabling Friend discussion as its own thread. Please post there.


As far as the "follow your heart" thinking goes, my WW just said this weekend that she has the right to change her mind. And she CHANGED HER MIND about being married to me.

I said, "You can't just CHANGE YOUR MIND. You got up on an alter and made vows before God and before all our families and friends. I wouldn't have had kids with you if you were just going to change your mind. Where and when did you reserve the right to CHANGE YOUR MIND?"

She knows she's acting crazy. I've got to believe that deep down inside she knows.