Hi all, this is my first post but I have been following the website to see if I felt it could help me. I wanted to see if the users were all victims helping each other or whether perpertrators were offerind advice to. I say this as one year ago to the month I cheated on my wife of 9 years with a coworker.

I will post honestly as I need genuinely helpful feedback to aid the recovery process.

History:
My wife and I have been married for 9 years and have 4 wonderful children under the age of 9. I grew up with very unemotional parents and although my upbringing was simple it was very empty to. They never fought, argued, shouted anything. They cared for me and I never wanted for anything but physcial contact was a rarity (hugs, kisses etc...). I grew up being scared of contact even with family members and have therefore always been shy around people and women in particular. I met my now wife when I was 19, she was my second relationship. We hit it off right away and didnt spend a day apart for over a year!! She is opposite of me, she is VERY emotional and I loved this, actually knowing where I stood, I was either being kissed or slapped lol

She brought me out of my shell and I became slightly more emotional and we learned to adapt to each other. For 8 years of marriage I never went near another woman or so much as looked in the wrong direction. To be honest I did have a couple of incidents on the net where I had befriended people who were suffering and tried to support and offer advice and they ended up wanting more. I have disclosed this to you as my problem is im very nieve. I always try to see the best in people and dont see why people bother to lie so tend to trust alot more than I should.

Incident:
I have always been a hard worker and work is my sanctuary. Dont misunderstand I love spending time with my wife but because I find the emotional side of relationships extremely difficult (I dont understand the majority of the time)I found I could lose myself in work and my troubles faded away.
Last summer an incident at work (which I was found innocent) led to me being suspended and my integrity ripped apart. This crushed me and I became very withdrawn from my family. A work colleague I had barely spoken to in the year I had been at my store started to befriend me. I welcomed this as I felt I needed a friend who could understand my situation and I guess I was trying to find a replacement safe place considering my work was now spoilt.
She seemed genuine and sweet and we started spending time together. Im so ashamed to say that it led to a full blown affair and lasted 2 months. My wife found out and I instantly knew I didnt want to lose her and ended it with the other woman. My wife hit rock bottom and was struggling to cope with life and my inability to understand her emotional needs was exposed more than ever. She needed me and I failed her. She demanded many things of me, some of the darker things being to confront the OW which I was unable to do.

I took responsibilty for the A as I thought the OW was a victim to. Again I am ashamed to say that it was my wife who put in the hard work to exposing the ***edit*** I had chosen. It turns out that she had played me like a pro (she appears to make a habit of going after what she cant have). Do not think for a second im blaming only her, oh yes I certainly had my part to play in all this but my nievity hadnt seen the bigger picture.

She has turned out to be the store ***edit*** and a real manipulative ***edit***. I want NOTHING to do with her and she truly means nothing to me. The trouble is and Im aware of the response ill get - I still work with her. On a selfish level this doesnt affect me as I dont care enough to notice her. I can see her and GENUINELY feel nothing. But obviously for my wife everyday is a nightmare. We always update each other on her behavour that day and any contact (of which there has been a couple of occasions within the last year but all professional and in front of either customers or management).

I tried to leave the store, secured myself a move but due to lack of management the general store manager sabotaged it and now im stuck here. When the affair became known to my wife she was very emotional and some days I was unable to attend work and due to this my sick record went from 6 years immaculate and final written warning. This means no store will touch me till Jan 2010.

I could try to find another job and admitly I havent done enough in this department (chatted with wife last night and I want to start searching). This is because with a family of 6,my wife and I both working, a couple of permanent weekly appointments and other commitments (we both go gym together) my work hours are critcial to be perfect. I can only work very early or very late (currently work 4pm-1am) and also I control my own rota which is essential. I genuinely dont believe I could walk into ANY job get control over my rotas and have the perfect wokring hours and the money im currently on.

Still I am now prepared to look

Now the real problem is that in the recovery process since I havent been able to meet my wifes needs. Im the sort of person who lives my life one day at a time and concentrates only on what im doing in that particular moment. Ive read on these forums people who have husbands who arent caring etc.... I do care and I do love my wife but I just cant identify with her pain and to be honest life doesnt seem bad. We enjoy each others company and still get on well, we have a active life and participate in each others activites (gym etc). We are comfortable money wise and the kids are doing well. So I guess my issue and ive taken this from a post by another user here, my life is much more enjoyable than my wifes hence I dont see the need to spend all day everyday refering to the A.

My wife is amazing and has come along way (on her own) and coped with sooo much ***edit*** from me but she cant move any further.

I work so hard at work and in every other aspect of our lives that I just want our time together to be relaxing and comfortable, I just cant work 100% ALL DAY EVERYDAY its not humanly possible.

We're now stuck and shes very close to ending the marriage which is the last thing I want but my actions dont ressemble my intentions.

I guess im trying to ask for help/advice both to help my marriage and also for me to unlock/grow as a person and meet my wifes needs.

Obviously theres more details that ive probably missed and im happy to talk about anything to help my situation so please ask.

Many thanks

Welcome to MB.

First of all, you seem to know what you need to do. You state as much several times. You also seem to be searching for every excuse in the book not to do what is right.

Your M won't recover as long as you are in contact with the OW. Pure and simple. If you want your M to succeed, quit your job, NOW! You state that your BW is about ready to end the M and you don't want that. So, do something about it. Show her you are serious about making this work. Let her know that she means more to you than nice comfy hours and the ability to go to the gym when you want to. Geez, those are some pretty petty reasons for throwing away a 9 year M that resulted in 4 young children.

Second, unfortunately, when you decided to have an A, you gave up the right to not have to work at your M. Sorry you can't work 100% of the time and want to just come home and relax and pretend that everything is fine, but it doesn't work like that. A M takes work. R a M after an A takes even more work. You've made your bed, now you are going to have to lie in it. Sure your life is more enjoyable than your W's. She didn't do anything to rip your heart out. She is suffering immeasurable pain right now. She has to deal with a H who goes to work everyday and sees the OW and then comes home and doesn't want to talk about anything that has happened or how she feels about it.

You are not in the R process, by the way. You won't be until you establish NC and commit yourself to this M 100%.

I know this may sound harsh. You're probably going to get some harsh words on here. But the advice is sound. If you want your M to succeed, listen to the people on here.

ED, can you send your wife here? In order for your marriage to recover you must a) completely end all contact with your OW and b) take seriously the magnitude of what you have done to her and thereby, commit to a plan of recovery. If that doesn't happen, she needs to make plans to separate to protect herself. The fact that you would make her endure your daily contact with the OW is very troubling and tells me you don't understand what you have done to this woman.

I would start looking very hard for another job NOW, and even consider leaving now. What you are doing by going there is destroying your marriage and if it goes on much longer, you may not have a marriage left.

Get the book, Surviving an Affair, if you want to understand what has happened to your marriage. A good article that outlines the steps it will take to recover is Requirements for Recovery, which I will link.


I would ask her to take the emotional needs questionaire and the lovebusters questionaire and learn to be a PRO at meeting her needs. Start doing this today. In order to create romantic love in your marriage, you need to schedule 15 hours a week meeting each others needs. Living "one day at a time" and doing only what you FEEL like is not going to bring you a happy marriage. That is a freeloaders mentality that will ruin your marriage. Marriage is supposed to be enjoyable, but it can't be enjoyable if you refuse to do things that effect that. If you get into the habit of meeting her needs while eliminating lovebusters, you will have a great marriage.

entire article here

WHY haven't you been able to meet your wife's emotional needs? And what are her top 5 emotional needs, do you know?

I agree with Writer 1

The reason your W is interested in leaving the M is because of your W attitude, you are STILL in the W thinking.
My H working with this W would be a deal breaker for me, there is no way anything can be fixed with you still seeing her, and Im sure that your still talking to her on some level.
Im glad you are here, you obviously want to help and heal your M, and it seems you know the right things to do, but if your looking for someone here to tell you that its ok for you to keep working with the Ow It's just not going to happen, and that you don't have to give 100% to your M because thats not going to happen either. Like Writer said, you made your bed, you just can't pick and choose what is comfortable for YOU. You choose to put your M on edge with an A that YOU knew was wrong, it would be nice to have an easy breezy M, but you choose to make it stormy and unpredictable.

Dead,

There are plenty of "perpetrators" here as well as "victims." However, it's the victims (i.e., the betrayed spouses) who are able to do a better job of filling you in on how your wife is likely to be feeling; and that needs to be a top concern of yours.

I was a wayward, and my wife & I are still working my way through this mess I caused. A few thoughts for ya:

-- If you haven't read "Surviving An Affair", do it. Preferably with your wife, but anyways, do it. The parts about emotional needs (also on this website -- see the yellow box to the right) are very important to healing your marriage.

-- Also, you need to make sure that in your own mind, as well as in your interaction with your wife, you're fully "owning" what you did, and taking full responsibility. Look at something you just said:


Dead, y'know, when you say stuff like this -- that you're too willing to be friendly to people (women, eh?) who're hurting, and you're too trusting, it almost comes off sounding like, deep down, you see yourself as a victim in all this. I'm gonna give it to you straight, because that's how you asked for it: When you say stuff in this way, it suggests that you're not fully "owning" it. I got stuck in that rut, too -- I convinced myself that I'd gotten led into my affair because I was a nice guy who lent a comforting ear to a female acquaintance who was having a bad time in her marriage & came to me for advice, and whom I felt sorry for. Well, as someone on this site once pointed out to me, I was a grown-up who made my own conscious decisions to have an affair -- No one had a gun to my head, and I damn well wasn't doing social work or marriage counseling when I made the decisions to let her into my car, or to meet her at hotels. The people I should've been feeling sorry for were my other woman's husband, and most of all, my own wife.

If you're not fullly owning up to it, chances are that your wife perceives this, and is bothered by it. Own it. And make sure your wife knows -- by your words & actions -- that you're owning it. Then you'll be in a lot better position to start getting better & help your wife get better.

And, yeah, you need to put your marriage above the job. If in a year from now, you could have one or the other (the marriage or the job), but not both, which would you choose? There is No Friggin' Way you can work with this woman & not have it mess with your wife's mind as well as your own.

Hi ED,

You know where to start - you've been given all the pointers. Like they said you KNOW what you have to do, you just have to do it.

If you continue as you are your wife will resent you more and more and it will become impossible for you to meet any of her needs because she will shut down from you.

Really listen to what she is saying- try to put yourself in her shoes- (I'm FWW) but to think of you going into work every day really makes me feel ill, I can feel my heart rate increase and my palms getting sweaty.

Stop making excuses and get out of there. If she decides she can no longer take it (this will not go away without you taking action) then the financial implications will be serious anyway.

Relationships between you 2 are clearly strained. Those 4 boys are very impressionable- will be picking up on their mothers sadness and anxiety - and that is down to you. You have to work hard to make sure you help her recover quickly and ensure your boys don't suffer any long term effects.


And this brings me on to extraordinary precautions.

You need to come up with a list of things that you will do to ensure that your behaviour will not be repeated and this includes your online shennanigans.

Mine include:
No 1:1 conversations with any men
No online converation with men without a chaperone

They seem extreme - but I am so wary of how these things start - as surely you must be now too.

But before anything else you have to stop contact; no matter how indifferently you feel towards OW at the mo.

Recovery can start once you end contact.

Good Luck!

ST

Emo,

You have both an unpleasant screen name and unfortunate initials. Would you consider changing your name? If your identification of yourself is that you are "emotionally dead", it suggests that you have no feelings for your wife and your marriage, and are not capable of having a conscience about what you have done. I think your name sends out a signal and I am put off by it. Your wife might be too.

You said

I think you need to take this problem back to management and at a higher level than store manager. Apparently they know about your affair, and are of the opinion that OW's affairs have caused them to lose 3 managers in the recent past. Apparently she has received some kind of warning about her behaviour, and if they hear of her involvement with you again, she will be sacked.

This shows that the company IS willing to step in when they think that company efficiency is being harmed by inappropriate personal relationships. They do not sit back and say that affairs are none of their business when their interests are at risk.

You have to present your move as being in their best interest. You must point out that it is better for them to avoid further contact altogether than to have it happen and then have to sack someone. You could suggest that they might become embroiled in a harassment suit or a claim for constructive dismissal if they do not transfer one of you. You could point out that by scuppering the last transfer, they kept the affair partners in close proximity and are not allowing one of them - you - to restore his marriage. That is appalling management (and it is hardly going to win them their "Investor in People" award). You must have this conversation NOW. Make an appointment first thing on Monday with HR at higher than branch level.

You may feel that you have done a huge amount by staying home when your wife has been ill, and putting up with her grief, but you have not pulled out many stops to end the source of her daily, grinding anxiety by getting away from OW at work. You have not really put in much effort there at all.

This is seen by your wife as a lack of care for what you are making her go through, and soon, as you say, she might end the marriage because of it. How have you been able to look at her in pieces FOR A YEAR and not do anything to stop it?

You say that your actions do not match your intentions but I am sorry to tell you that actions always do. You have not gone flat out to get away from the work situation because, deep down, you do not see the need for that; your own words show this. You put having a good income and working compatible hours above ending your wife's pain. No wonder she wants to walk away.

I don't know that you need to "unlock" emotionally as a person - at least not if this involves looking at your childhood and focusing on your undemonstrative parents. What you do need is to end all contact and meet your wife's most important emotional needs. If they include conversation, then you must have conversations with her. If her needs include affection then you must hug, kiss and cuddle in the way she would like, as often as she would like. You do not have to make any reference to your parents and their ways in order to do this; you just do it.

When you do not show compassion for your wife, and respond to her grief, she feels that this is because you do not actually have compassion for her and you do not see your affair as the trauma that it is for her. Indeed, when you say that your life is much more enjoyable than your wife's you prove that you are not thinking very deeply about what she is going through. She knows that you feel this, and she interprets your lack of trauma as a lack of basic humanity on your part. You have to change this impression or marital recovery will never begin.

There is no magic to doing this. You must go all out to make her happy (first and foremost, by changing jobs), talk and listen to her, and show affection and compassion, (if she wants those things).

You should book a sessions with the Harley coaching centre right away. YOU should do this and not wait for your wife to suggest it or make the booking. The more active you become, the more your wife will see that you are working on recovery and her own feelings will start to change.

Another British poster says this about telephone coaching from the UK:

If you have problem putting your intentions into practice, then Steve Harley would be good for you because he tells you what to do and what to say in various scenarios.

First of all I would like to say thanks to everyone whos taken time to reply to my thread, im reading everything carefully as this means a lot to me....

So.....

Writer 1 - Thanks for your views, I was expecting the reoccuring theme of NC as ive read other threads on here. I do understand and as stated I WILL make it my main objective to job hunt starting ASAP.

I will make a critism of a few users at this point - While I understand I MUST leave my job and the OW behind me 'QUITING instantly' is not an option for ANYONE living in the real world. Ive already devestated my family once so losing our family home and ability to feed the kids isnt an option. I dont know what job hunting is like in the US now the econamy is 'alledgyly on the up' after the stimulus plan, but here its still shocking. Companies falling into administration daily etc..... Anyway im getting distracted. I fully understand that I must leave ASAP but it will be when a full plan is in place

I need to hear the harsh reality of the situation from someone other than my wife. People who are in similar situations, have priceless advice to offer etc, and as I said im buying into MB fully. My wife and I have just ordered the 'Surviving the affair' book from amazon.


MelodyLane - I have sat down and introduced my W to this site and she has a thread of her own, her username is brutallyhonest28 and the thread is called 'one year on, when will it get better'.

Your right, I've been struggling identifying and understanding her pain. This is a big issue for us and as you say allows me to make ther situation worse by not making allowances towards her in everyday life.

I have already sourced the two questionaires in question and we will sit down and spend some quality time together.


Doingfine - as stated in my first post, i have disclosed ALL contact with OW. Always in the presence of management or customers and strictly professional (3 times in last year) - three times to many I ACCEPT!


Gloveoil - Ordered book today, couple of days delivery, will definately be making time with wife to read it

In terms of the affair im definately owning it, in fact my wife wants me to blame OW more :-s

In terms of your direct reference to the internet, im considering the truth in what you've said, I have felt more victim than perp, I offered support and they got attached but I guess helping someone at weak time for them and helping them, being their support could lead to problems but if everyone thought like this the world would be an even darker place. But still Ive learnt that lesson the hard way and they are someone elses problem now. Im all busy with the one that matters - my amazing wife

Back to the A, In fact I was the person who was low and wanted support and friendship.

Job wise, fair play and im going to sort this see above responses


Staytogether - Your spot on she has already begun shutting down, not because of the A but my actions or lack off, since.

Internet wise Im already ahead on that one, ive deleted facebook, dont use chat rooms AT ALL, never used MSN and so basically interent is for info and MB only and im glad for that


Sugarcane - I actually wanted Emotionally_Stunted but its too long I dont like emotionally dead either but that was the last issue on my mind this morning while posting for the first time, but of course id be happy to rethink

Ok my Store - management didnt give a ***edit*** about A as long as it didnt effect running of store. It did as explained and that pissed them off no end. I became unrealiable and as I was the only member of management in my department (nights) at the time, covering wasnt easy as everyone else worked days. Also sickness was obvisouly very short notice for them depending on day at home and sometimes I just didnt turn up. I got sat down repeatidly and slowly my record became offical. She carried on her work without issue as she wasnt bothered so of course came accross like little miss innocent. Difference was when I was at work I was professional while she was using her friends at work to make my life difficult. I would complain to management and they would just accuse me of making a mountain from a mole hill. I sourced a transfer, really looking forward to it, and then the store manager pulled plug on it as I was only manager. Now I have support my record is too poor and NO one will take me.

The main issue with your suggestion is that everything at the store is quiet now and has been for months so if I try to raise A either within store or higher - ***edit*** will hit fan to say least. Think I should job hunt ASAP and if no luck transfer first opportunity in January when record clears.

She has no warning but my wife write a letter to GSM (store manager), he refused to act on it but has put it into her file incase of future issues with her.

Right emotions - Your right about me not seeing the immediate need to get away from the work situation - I have always tried to be transparent with it, we speak and text alot while im working, my phone is always available for her to look through, I update her on OW movements/rotas etc.... I can appreciate upon reflection that this hasnt been enough, and as stated previsouly i'll take care of this.

When I talk about 'unlocking' im not talking about childhood but I do not feel normal, and am certainly told im not normal for my feelings/reactions etc.. Im refering to my lack of apparent understanding/identifying/empathising......

I want to be with my wife and that I know and why im here. Its taken a lot of sieving through ***edit*** to find this site but im glad im finally here.

I hate the fact that I would be able to carry on like nothing has happened if my wife allowed this to drift away. She has to remind me and drag me away from everyday life to pull me back into the situation. Im just being honest here and I hope it'll help.

I have no issue with contact wife my wife its the convosations and not due to content I'll talk to her about anything and everything but she is such a deep person and im such an emotional retard. We start talking and shes just gets to deep for me and I just sit there dumbstruck with no answer which leads to understandable rage on her behalf - THIS IS PERMANENT REOCCURING ISSUE, but one I cannot get closer to her on. I've sort therapy/counciling and even tried hypnotherapy so believe me I've TRIED - for once.

I know you have come over from my wifes thread and I thank you for your support/advice to her I really appreciate it


All - Now i've almost finished this huge reply im off to discuss phone coaching with my princess.

With such a large reply im sure I've missed bits or mis read things but bear with me and ask anything you need to.

Thanks all and goodnight x

Okay, be that then.

Have you read Brightlion's thread in the Recovery Forum. He also is a WS trying to recover M. There's some good advice and links in that thread you may find helpful.

Gg

I think everyone is aware of the state of the economy. Jobs are scarce and difficult to come by. It's a scary time. It's easy to give the advice that someone should quit their job, but probably quite difficult for anyone to actually do it.

That being said, you've been at this job for a YEAR after the end of your A. For the past year, you have been putting your job before your BW and your family. You have hindered the R of your M. I honestly don't think you and your BW will ever be able to move on from this as long as you keep working with the OW. You made the decision to sleep with a co-worker. When you pick up one end of the stick, you pick up the other. All actions have consequences. You can choose your actions; you can't choose your consequences. Maybe you can't just quit your job today, but the longer you put it off, the less chance you have of saving your M. I guess only you can decide where your priorities lie.

By the way, a D isn't cheap. Your finances may be tight if you have to quit your job and go on unemployment and live off one income for awhile. But what's going to happen to your finances if you and your BW end up in D? That's going to affect your finances for the rest of your life.

I'll take a look thanks for direction

Absolutely right and I dont intend to waste a second longer, im going to see what jobs are around right now.

Just printed off questionaires so thats another thing to look forward too

Rough night, after all the hope we had from finding MB, ordering book, questionaires, advice from users, we had a harsh convosation.

Altough MB gives us a fighting chance theres also the darkside of this site - users that have seen couples fail telling new users when they see similar traits in their situations.

MY BIGGEST ISSUE IS MY LACK OF EMOTIONS!!
Its driving us BOTH mad.

I will post more but right now im falling asleep on the pc as I havent slept yet. Sorry i'll be back as soon as I can.

Thanks again

You are both trying.
Neither of you has quit.
Therefore, there is hope.
That being said, now there is work for you to do.

with this you are expecting your W to beleive you, after the ultimate of lies. You can honestly say that this person, when you see her, does NOT provoke some kind of emotional response from you? whether it be a sadness, excitement etc....no matter what there is something, whether you speak 10 words or none.
The economy is tough, theres no doubt, and if you listen to the news, world news, you know its bad in the U.S. also, just saying that my H would NOT stay married to me and see the women he got naked with at the same time, period.
How many applications have you put in? What other "careers" have you thought about, friends that have companies that you have begged for a job, working two jobs to make up for one?



This is a quote that tells me your still in the W thinking, not everyone thinks like this, not everyone slips onto the internet and offers support to OW without their S knowing, this is not making the world a brighter place. Your support should go to your W, your sympathy, empathy, intimacy should STAY with your W, leave support, sympathy, empathy, intimacy for OW up to someone else, you obviously are not intended for this job. You are still making excuses for yourself. Your not getting "it" and because your not getting it, your more likely to be in this situation again.

ok, not trying to be difficult here but, WHAT?? you have emotions, trust me, you just got done saying how sad the world would be without this, what is it exactly when your offering an ear, sympathy, empathy to these people that get attached to you? Your emotionless to your W because you want to be, because it hurts to bad to admitt what you've done to her, your poor W sees all this emotion that you give to everyone else but her.

That is not a darkside, yll. You need to know what to do to save your marriage and you need to know what will not work. What you are doing will not lead to recovery. Going to work with the OW every day is wrecking your marriage and posters would be remiss if they didn't tell you that.

Your marriage is not going to get better doing questionaires and ordering a book. It will only get better by you leaving your job. Until you leave the job, things will continue to desinigrate. Telling your wife about contact with the OW does not erase the damage that was caused by the contact.

My feelings for my H were muted and difficult and inconsistent while I was still in contact with the OM. The A was over, but we remained in contact for another year and a half because of our OC. I thought I had no choice, that I had to stay in contact and try to keep OM involved in our OC's life. Our contact was all long-distance, since he lives 3000 miles away. We spoke on the phone twice and I would email him about doctor's appointments and such. Even this little bit of contact affected my feelings for my BH.

I can't imagine how working with the OM and having to see him everyday would have affected the way I felt. I can guarantee that your feelings will be much more stable when you establish complete NC. Things will be so much clearer then. It doesn't matter if you don't have any feelings for the OW. Seeing her day in and day out is still affecting the way you feel about your W and your ability to fully move on.

yllang, the first thing that rings out from your posts is not a lack of emotions, but a lack of willingness to make yourself in any way uncomfortable. You've been quite willing to make an effort when there's something pleasant in it for you, but when the path ahead involves discomfort, disruption and a bit of unpleasantness, you're ready with the well-honed excuses...emotionally-stunted, undemonstrative family of origin, etc., etc...

'Not understanding' the emotions of other people is an easy way to avoid having to consider them. If it really bothered you, you would have already tried to work on yourself, either alone or with professional help. Your wife's pain hasn't really bothered you, but now that her reaction is likely to disrupt YOUR life, you're able to feel some pain.

Which brings us to the second thing that rings out from your posts. Everything in your life is described in terms of the benefit it has to YOU, or the discomfort it has caused to YOU. Your family of origin, your wife, your 'naive' internet contacts, your OW, your employer - all are described only for what they did or are doing to affect YOUR life. You give the impression of believing that you are exempted from having to give anything to a relationship, and that you are entitled to have everyone around you strive to make you comfortable.

I would ask you to consider the possibility, not that you have some cosy psychological dysfunction to hide behind, but that you are simply immature, spoiled, and chronically selfish.

TA

yllanoitomE,

I am one of the moderators here. On behalf of the Harleys, I must ask that you not use profanity in your posts. The use of profanity is against the TOS (Terms of Service) here. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

McLovin,
MBDB Moderator

yllang, I understand that you have in fact undertaken both marital and individual therapy. However, it does not seem to have had much effect on you.

Is it true that you undertook hypnotherapy, and at some point challenged the therapist to "break you"? (not necessarily to his face; in a conversation with your wife, perhaps). What did you mean by this?

SC, am I out of the loop on something here? Were there posts that got lost in the site rebuild, perhaps?

TA

No, not that. Please read his wife's thread "It's been a year. When will things get better?" She is Brutallyhonest28.

Hi Emotionally,

emocleW to MB!

I would love to give you some help...... regretfully, it all begins with NC.

Until you can achieve NC there is not much to offer you.

You are emotionally raping your wife every time she watches you leave for work knowing it's the same place OW works. Your wife will eventually call it quits and you'll nievely be shaking your head wondering how all that happened.

I will keep an eye on you and pray you find another job quicker than you find divorce papers being handed to you.

Reposted below - I apologise for my attitude to date. Please re-read

Many thanks

Right first of all I wish to offer a genuine apology to everybody who has taken time to post on my thread and especially to my wife who I shamefully admit has had to make me realise all of my revelations since the A went public.

Last night/this morning my wife had an extemely emotional convosation with me. She was very angry and upset that my responses were so simple and more importantly closed (protecting myself) from further scutiny and judgement. I immediately refused such a suggestion but upon reading back my thread - it was true.

At the end of the chat I explained where I stood with MB and that I WILL make it my top priority - to be as honest and receptive as I can be.

Dont accept me unless im being open, I will challenge myself to do what I need to do to work towards R.

Whats also scared me is that as you know ive been trough various therapy, talked to friends, family members etc.. and nobody has ever pushed me or even seen a problem with me!!! You guys on here have me pretty much nailed down already and arent afriad to tell me what what - which I love I just find hard to accept.

So im going to re-answer your posts and answer fully and hopefully with more information and honesty you will find it easier to respond and more worthwhile that talking to me in spolit brat mode.

Big apologies - im moving forward and I hope you'll join me

Thanks all

No my W is trying on her own, Ive made progress in terms of im on MB of my own accord but I havent been trying since A went public a whole year ago. Im thoughly ashamed and Thats changes NOW!


Quote 1 - Ive spoken in depth with my W about this as understandly it doesnt make sense. The best way I can discribe it to you is that after the A went public we learned exactly what the OW was, and that shocked me as I had spent time with someone who seemed sweet etc.. and suddenly she is a serial homewrecker, manipulative b***h, shes tried to get me sacked, involved police whilst lying through her teeth and god knows how many more things I could list. After the rose tinted glasses were removed she quickly became an disgusting human not to mention I realised how ugly she is - both inside and out. I think what im trying to exlpain is that the reason I dont feel anything when I see her at work is becuase I dont see the person I had the A with. Its like two totally different people. The OW has gone and been replaced by a royal b***h who doesnt remind me of affair so I dont have any feelings towards her either.

Doesnt this make any sense?? Is it my brain protecting itself?? I dont find it an issue but my wife wants me to carry feelings with me as a constant reminder of what I did, and to act as a deterant to avoid future situations.

I understand my wife doesnt trust me after what ive done and that being transparent and reporting back can only help so much before I can get out of job. Can anyone offer any advice of things I could do for my wife in the mean time as I feel horrible now I realise the full extent of her pain everytime I go to work.

Please help me help her......

Quote 2 - Thoughly ashamed as I've not done any job hunting in last year. My wife even found a job through a friend at one stage a few months back, but I didnt even follow it up. I dont have any friends that can help at the moment but im job hunting ASAP - I understand urgency now.....

Quote 3 - Now I reflect on those times they were very wayward. My behaviour was selfish and my wife was again left to suffer alone. I have removed myself from all social networking sites and dont use chat rooms anymore. I did this as a childish act, instead of contolling myself it was easier to remove the temptation/situations from occuring in the first place. At this point im obviously going to leave it this way as my wife doesnt need any extra stressers but I've taken your comments onboard.


This is difficult for me as I've felt emotionless/empty for years. Around 5 years ago our second child was born and we know pre-birth that he would need an operation on his heart. I was prepared and was strong for my wife and baby but he needed a second emergency procedure that was unexpected. My wife was the strong one then and I fell apart. Since that day I dont remember being emotional again?!?

6 months later he stopped breathing at home one night and I found him blue/eyes rolled back/not breathing and I had to use CPR plus his oxygen concentator to save him. My wife was stuck to the spot in shock but I was all business like and never showed emotion, not during/after etc......

This is the main reason I sought therapy, without being able to express my emotions to my wife how were we ever going to survive?? I could tell he im sorry, I hate myself etc.. but when its coming from someone straight faced its not believable?!

Any thoughts on this issue??

p.s. I can still get angry easily so I guess your right its all about locking up the painful emotions so protect myself hence why I can still lash out. Is this typical behavour?? I promise its not something im doing consciously...


I have covered the first job section before please dont think im being rude by leaving it out

However obvious it maybe to other users your second statement really hit a nerve with me. You said "telling my wife about contact doesnt erase damage caused by contact"
S**t your spot on, I thought that honesty would cure all when of course honesty is important especially to regain trust but the issue is the contact in the first place.

Thanks keep the pearls coming


I think I've had a break through here, Ive stated above that I dont have any feelings towards OW upon seeing her at work. However I was thinking about any effect it had on my wife as I couldnt see the relevance if I wasnt feeling anything but then it hit me.

Everyday im at work, I have to report back to my wife whether OW was at work, any contact, her actions, attitude etc... This makes me feel like im reporting to a paroll officer and not my wife. While honesty is important and I would never take that away from my wife, the contact stops me from being able to go home, throw my arms around my wife and tell her I love her, as im to busy updating her and hoping she believes me, and then any further convosations obvious destroy postivie contact between us. The initial intimacy of me returning home to her is ruined by the OW still exisiting....

Right the blinkers are off and im finding another job if it kills me...

Ill just quicly mention again, if anyone has any advice on ways I could help my wife until such a time as I leave the store, it could be priceless....


Thanks for being brutal why cant therapists do this, its so much easier to understand than pussyfooting around the issue waiting for you to make revelations.

I think I've actually covered quite a lot of your post in my response here so please dont think im being rude by not answering you fully, it just so happened your last lol. Please read me comments above and repost as your post was actually the one that shook me awake.....

And yes your reference of my character was accurate. I had a chat with my wife last night, and she explained and gave examples of the tings ive done which puts me straight in the categories you've listed.

I want to help my wife into R as we are floating at the moment and I know it cant stay like this much longer before I lose her completely.

As I said please repost as this was VERY insightful


No problem sorry was getting carried away posting for first time. Ill get the * ready for any new posts


Yes as posted just above I've attended various therapies but to no avail. I am serious about entering M R and so sort help.

The 'crack me' comment was an incredibly insensitive comment I made after a therapy session. I was feeling low as I wasnt making progress and I was worried my options were running low. I said that "im afraid she wont be able to crack me", it wasnt a good thing or a challenge, I wanted her to crack me but my wife understandably took offense to this comment and didnt want to continue therapy as she thought I had given up.

By 'crack me' I mean reach the cold hearted, emotionally stunted moron inside and return me to a remotely human state If however this is as good as im getting my wife rightfully wont accept this and M will be over.

Im really trying to open up in this re-post and hopefully people will resond positively to this as im sure people were getting fed up with my attitude. I hope the great advice continues and I can move forward to help my wife....


Thank you - I wondered if anyone got my name - it was supposed to represent me being emotionally backwards...... anyway

I understand the NC issue and im on it. I hope you are around when im ready as I understand from my wifes thread that your very insightful and full of knowledge and advice. I will definately look you out and I hope to speak soon as that means progress


All posters - Thanks for your patience, I stand be my apology above and hope this repost has offered more of an insight into the issues. There will be more to come and ill work on my communication and openness.

Thanks again

Did I miss it somewhere in your posts where you owned up to not using protection during your affair and ended up giving your wife an STD? I read that on her thread.
Tell ya, when I read the two side-by-side, it definitely sounds like you're using your emotional detachment as an excuse for a lot of poor choices.

Yllan, brutality is the quickest way to wake you up - and you haven't got the luxury of waking up slowly. Your marriage is hanging by the thinnest of threads. You've let this situation fester for a year, and now you've got a very, very tiny window to fix it.

So let's get down to exactly what you've done to your wife, so you can understand why she is on the verge of divorcing you.

Finding out that your partner is having an affair is like being run over by a train. It's nothing, NOTHING like the way it's portrayed in films and on TV. They give you the impression it's a minor drama, soon got past. The reality is that it's life-stopping, searingly painful. Your whole life collapses around you - who you though you were, how you thought your spouse saw you, what you thought your marriage was. That's why betrayed spouses self-harm, attempt suicide, act crazy.

Dr. Harley says it's a worse assault than RAPE. People who've lost children say that the infidelity hurt worse than the loss of their child. Can you imagine how bad a pain must be to be worse than that?

Were you present for the birth of your four children? If they were natural births, then you know what the pain of labour is like. You know how agonising it gets as the birth gets closer. Imagine if that agonising pain didn't end in a birth, but kept on, wave after wave of pain to endure...for days, weeks, months on end. For a year. Day after day struggling to breathe through the crippling pain, yearning for the brief respite between contractions. Waking up after blinks of sleep to find the same pain wracking you...

For a year. And every time you cry out in agony, your partner looks at you coldly and walks away.

Does that sound melodramatic? Because I have to tell you that it's not. This is what it feels like to be betrayed, and every time you go into work and see the OW, you betray your wife again.

Can you see why cutting off her involvement with you might seem a very welcome idea to your wife?

If she does that, then YOU get to share some of the pain. You've got four young children. Under English law, your wife will get the lion's share of your income. You won't be left with much. You won't see your kids much, and when you do, it will be in the crappy bedsit which is probably what you'll be able to afford after supporting your family.

You'll look for another relationship. Will anyone have you - a man with four young dependent children, on a low income, whose marriage ended not just because of his infidelity but because he was utterly insensitive to the pain he'd caused? Well yes, there will be women who'll jump at you. Not wise, balanced, emotionally mature women - they won't touch you with a bargepole. The women who'll clamp onto you will be...unwise, unbalanced, emotionally immature. The OW perhaps.

If your wife collapses completely under the strain - and that possibility seems close - you'll end up looking after the children yourself. Four children, 30-odd pets, and a full-time job that requires you to be out of the house overnight. That's not going to be a picnic, is it?

One of these scenarios IS your future. Are you still feeling emotionally numb?

TA

Your right I havent mentioned the 'No protection' issue. In fact I havent mentioned many things that happened over the last year, the 2 month A and the lead up to the A. Ive only posted a few times but im trying to take onboard all the comments and advice from other users. Its been picked up on that I havent been 'uncomfortable' or 'exposed' since the A kicked off. Im tackling that by writing a list of everything ive done that im not proud of, ashamed by, not understood, hurt my W with and just everything that needs to be exposed for me to own and deal with and I shall publish it on here once im done.

Ill address the issue your specifically refering to - first just to explain my past. Ive only ever slept with my wife and Ive never been sexually active with anyone else to any extent. I had a vasectomy 2 years ago as my family was complete (well overflowing lol). As I explained in my first post I believed she was a sweet girl and I was nieve enough not to question her sexual history (not that she would have told truth - shes lied to us since) however thats not the issue, I still didnt ask myself. The night we were going to sleep together I did buy condoms but didnt use them. I was pertrified when it came to the act as having only slept with my wife I was concerned about performance and embarassment. The act itself was horrible, we had no connection, she was very inanimate, quiet and boring - this was making it difficult to keep an erection.

I have to admit I didnt think about infections as I knew I was clean (dumb I know but I can only be honest). I did bring up the lack of contraception with her a few days later as it bothered me as she wasnt aware of my vasectomy at that time, she just shrugged it off saying that she had the contraceptive injection and thats that.

I did go back and slept with her one last time (twice in total) despite what i've written above, ridiculous I know. After the first time she could tell it didnt go well and that fact was bugging me so we spoke about it and she told me she had been raped as a teenager, leading to a termination of a unwanted pregnancy. It wasnt pity that took me back but the revelation calmed me enough to believe it was good reason for the first time issues and maybe the second time would be different (she was never raped she has since admitted using that story to get me back on side) Just so you know the second time was an exact re-run of the first time, down to protection, act etc.....

Since then my wife and I have found out sooo much information about her activity. She sleeps around regularly, often with married men, she NEVER uses protection!! Her 3 year old daughter could have had one of 4 dads - all of who worked in the store at the same time! (before my time).

I was still sleeping with my wife at the same time and she did suffer with a mild std. I went for full testing upon the revelation about her sexual history and my tests came back clear. Im not 100% sure that the std came from OW but of course its possible and to be honest its irrelvant as I didnt use protection and I slept with them both and thats plainly my fault and so deserve the responsibly single handily.

I must admit the whole protection issue isnt a major one for me personally (I expect abuse but again being honest) so I dont carry it around with me. However its one of the(if not THE) worst issue for her so if anything comes up in conversation I more often than not am not sensitive towards it, leading to massive arguments.....

I don't like the sound of this OW. Of course, I don't think well of any OW...but from the way you and Bh have described her behaviour, she is one of the most revolting ones.

However, I don't see the relevance of that.

When you are married and have sex with someone other than your spouse (and when you are single and have sex with someone who is married) you put yourself at much more risk than when openly dating.

You might have your affair with someone who is really beautiful and also witty, charming and intelligent and then, when you try to break up with her after D Day, she becomes neurotic, unbalanced and threatens suicide when her fantasy world collapses. This happened to my H, who found out that his really lovely OW had had a near breakdown when her previous 4-year affair collapsed, and had had other periods of instability and fragility.

You might find out after D Day that OP is unbalanced and becomes a stalker. That has happened to people here.

You might go and live with someone perfectly normal who, when you return to your wife, mounts a campaign from the pavement outside your house, telling the world how you used her. That happened to my H' s brother-in-law. He was fragile and eventually killed himself over his own affair.

You might choose someone who becomes so filled with bile about your fake-perfect family life and your cake-eating that she "outs" you. This appears to have happened to Gordon Ramsey.

You might choose someone who many years later, although apparently happily married herself, reveals your long-dead affair, publicly humiliating your wife. This happened to John Major, with Edwina Currie.

You might choose someone who puts up with snatched moments for years, then becomes pregnant and demands that you leave your wife. When you will not, she tells the world about your affair. This has happened to many people.

You volunteer to be lied to, outed to your wife and employers, stalked, infected, given an OC, physically attacked and much more when you have an affair. None of the OPs that I referred to above had horns attached to their heads. None of the WSs thought that they were other than nice, attractive people who wanted a bit of fun, just like the WS did.

The WS does not know the OP; by definition a large part of OP's life is a secret to the WS and vice versa.

Your marriage was the only safe relationship you could have had while married. Any other relationship while married carries infinite, undefined risks.

You chose to sleep with someone in circumstances of secrecy and risk. It makes no difference to what you did that she turned out to be a toad. It simply beggars belief that you chose to have (unprotected) sex with someone you did not know much about, and who was a threat to your marriage. I don't think your crisis is in any way affected by the specific details concerning that particular OW. If you had remembered that you were married and a father, she could not have conned you with her rape claim.

Please don't even dare to suggest that you are not responsible for your wife's STD. It might just be that you are not good at expressing yourself, but there is the implication that she got it from someone else. If you have ever said anything like that to Bh, I'm not surprised she is thinking of divorce.

Obviously I am biased but yes you hit the nail right on the head, she is thoroughly a disgusting and manipulative vile specimen of a humnan. Her actions in the past have been allowed to be forgotton as the store manager changes every two years. Also every person shes slept with have been forced to leave the store, so shes NEVER been made to feel accountable. My wife and I are the first people to give her trouble and embarass her infront of everyone she knows including her own family. My W was fantastic at outing the real b***h, and I stayed calm during her little games and remained at the store and got all the employees back on my side after she tried to turn them against me and play little mis victim. Theres also a letter in her HR personel file explaining everything shes done in the past, courtesy of my wife again. Although store wouldnt deal with her antics this time, they'll be forced to next time
Hopefully she might think twice about messing with another 'taken' man next time.



Err... wow!?! Thats quite a list :-s



Yes this is true and im well aware of it too. I hate myself for not just stopping for one minute and thinking about my wife or kids. I also hate the people at work who suspected something was going on, that knew her home wrecking tendancies, that again one comment would have shocked me straight out of my fog.... (I know its not their place but cant help being frustrated as once it was out in public they came to me expressing their suprise at the time!! well thanks, no good now is it.....)



Oh god no, I trust her fully. No sorry its not clear as I didnt want to state the STD. Shes suffered with thrush which can be caught many ways including stress, antibiotics, creams, perfumed soaps and deodrants just to name a few.

However the timing was suspect, and as I said I slept with someone discusting, didnt check her past and didnt use protection so actually it doesnt matter what caused it, its still mine to own 100% because of my actions - and I do.

I have to give you credit for taking the 2x4's that are hitting you, and am convinced that you are willing to help yourself because of it, so on with another 2x4



do you not see these as feelings? you would not have so much hate for this person had she never become the OW, she would just be another co-worker, but, because of what she has done to you, and has hurt you with her antics, you have such disdain for her, this is a feeling from the A, this is a direct result of the A, its feelings like this that you face everyday, right wrong indifferent, its because you see her everyday. These my dear are feelings,
and Im very sorry for your child, its something a parent should never have to deal with, so for that Im sorry.

The reason I brought up the STD is that it took four pages of inquiry before it came up (and I was the one who mentioned it, not you). In your wife's post, it comes up in the first paragraph.
You see, to full accept responsibility, you have to acknowledge the things that are important to your WIFE. The fact that you are devoid of emotions is not as big a betrayal to her as the fact that you gave her an STD because you put your genitals into a sewer pipe.
Perhaps you should read more about what your wife finds deplorable, and address THOSE issues ahead of your own. But don't post on her thread. She should not have to face you there. Bring it back here.

I don't think yllan has posted on his wife's thread. BH28 used her husband's login accidentally when she used the other household computer.

No, I wasn't implying that he had...sorry. Yes, I noticed his wife had posted under his screen name. But EVENTUALLY, one spouse ends up posting on the other's in rebuttal. I was trying to avoid that situation. It's best to keep the two threads separate so they have a "safe place" to vent. KWIM?

yllan, I too am very sorry to hear about your son and his health problems. That must have been difficult to deal with, and I'm sure must have affected you both.

If it's accurate that your sense of coldness stemmed from that time - and only you can truly search your heart on that one - then I think you probably need some counselling and some help with how to deal with situations like that without closing down.

In crisis situations, we are either overwhelmed and unable to think, or we put emotions aside in order to deal with the problem at hand. With your son's emergency, it seems that BH did the first (very normal, especially for a mother with a child), and you did the second (it often is the father who's able to put emotions aside and handle the situation).

The thing is, putting aside the emotion is supposed to be a temporary arrangement. When the crisis is over, we should then process the emotions we put on hold, and get back to being our usual emotional self. Some professionals, such as doctors and firemen, have to learn to move in and out of emotional set-aside all the time. Occasionally even they get stuck in the cold zone, and wreck their marriages and happiness.

It may be that there are still many, many emotions - such as the sense of panic, the fear of failing your child, anger at BH's freezing and leaving it to you, fear of having to step up on future occasions - that still need to be processed.

Perhaps you could discuss with BH whether there were changes in your marriage after that time?

As for the thrush... I had thrush on and off for two years. I couldn't understand why it kept coming back. After d-day, it dawned on me that FWH had been passing it between me and OW - it's transportable via the penis, although does not affect the owner of the penis. Ironically, I also realised that I was the one who originally passed it to her. I told FWH that I had the problem, not realising that it was for anything other than informing him of my discomfort. Affairs lead to so many unexpected problems.

yllanoitomE,

No, I would ask that you come up with words to use other than ones considered profane. Even with * added, the words still read as profanity, and that is not acceptable here. Myself and the Harleys thank you for your cooperation.

McLovin,
MBDB Moderator

I guess the problem is that when I sit here and analyse I can make these feelings understood and post, but when im at work and see OW I just simply feel nothing. If I felt instant hate or disgust then that would make my W more comfortable. Because I dont hate her in person my W believes im more likely to reoffend with OW, which is never going to happen in a million years.

Its ok it was a long time ago now and bless him, he's a wonderful little 5 year old at school now He still needs assistance as he spent the first 13 months of his life in hospial baring a couple of short ventures home.




Ewww.... not loving that analogy, although on second thoughts the sewer pipe probably would have been more responsive, cleaner and caused me a lot less problems but moving on......

I can do that, thanks for the ideas, but I may need help implementing them as I dont know how to make someone elses opinions my own. I can try to take on board her feelings and discuss with her any issues but its still her trigger at the end of the day, not mine???



yes and I feel thoroughly violated :-p



We've spoken about this and we are respecting each others personal space...... so far :-p





This is a very intelligent post, are you a councillor yourself or been through the system after A??? Sorry to be rude but thought i'd ask

Again the sad thing is that ive sought help professionally for these EXACT issues but no-one seemed qualified? to help me. Whats really annoying me (discussed in another thread) is the difference between UK and US therapists. Of all the professional help I know of people recieving, only one was any good and able to make a difference!!?! The four pro's i've seen have all been emotionally timid themselves lol

The blind leading the blind???

As ive said before im very dense when it comes to emotions and understanding needs etc... so the whole putting emotions aside and then coming back to revisit them later is beyond me. I would have forgotton within hours and have no way to revisit them?? Anyway if anyone has ideas to help with these issues seeing as the pros cant help , let me know.

I'd sooner talk to people with experience than a book taught shrink anyway



Thanks for the idea, I'll touch on that tonight and report back with any relevant information



Wow that must have been very hard for you to deal with?

Im personally working on this, IMANOTHERONE pointed out that I need to overhaul the way im addressing OUR relationship issues, try to find a way to put hers first even if I dont fully understand or feel as passionate about wont be easy. Any advice on how I can take her issues on as my own??


But I need to be angry at OW, and 'OW' doesnt always cut it lol

Ok understood I'll behave

Being emotionally distant is not a crime. It's bad for your marriage, and you can deal with it, but more importantly, you have to OWN your mistakes.
Downplaying the significance of things that your wife views as monumental is not helping.

We aren't born this way. As children we have no problem expressing our emotions... fear, anger, hurt, sadness, happiness, joy. Then life happens, we mature, and we're taught to reign in our emotions and maintain a healthy balance. What you describe is not a healthy balance, it's unnatural and unhealthy to your marriage.

I feel bad for your wife because it would be hard to live with a man like you. Not only are you emotionally void, but you have betrayed her in the worst possible way and continue to do so everytime you walk into that job. The adultery may be over for you but it isn't for her. You may as well go ahead and sleep with OW again because the pain you are causing now with your continued lack of empathy for your wife is just as bad.

Oh, and you can do whatever you WANT/CHOOSE to do. There is NO reason good enough that you have to stay at that job. Money comes and goes. Your marriage is your number one priority (or at least it should be). If it means quitting your job and having to scrimp to get by for awhile, selling some stuff, whatever... then that's what you should do. Today.

I don't know if you are a believer, but if you do the right thing, trust God to handle the details. I think you'd be amazed at how things work out if you take the right steps. In other words, He will if you will.

Unfortunately, I have a feeling these words will fall on deaf ears... because you have basically admitted your lack of ability to empathize with your hurting wife. And that's so sad.

Hi and thanks for posting.

I couldnt agree more, Ive said for ages its not normal how I am and feel but despite seeking help Ive not been able to make any progress.

See before the A I was the same person but because there was trust and no MAJOR issues we got on well with our relationship. However since the A has single handily destroyed my wife and our relationship my lack of emotions is being highly visable

Ok look I appreicate the job issue is critical to the recovery and as im typing this reply my CV is printing waiting to be faxed to a company a friend works with, for an ideal job that shes putting a good word in for.

Im not a believer but my wife was a christian, but lost her faith years ago when our baby was sick. She wants to find her way back, but I guess needs a little strength and belief.

Are you an any regular medication? AD's?

Do you drink alcohol at all?

Do you smoke weed on occasion?

Do you take any non-perscription drugs?

you are back peddling, don't do it. You can't convince me that you feel nothing when you see this person.
this is why everyone is trying to convince you to not work with this person anymore. You are not being transparent with your W, you are withholding pertinent information from her, if I can see it from here, she can see it from there.

Tst

I did try AD's for a while no help
We dont really drink - special occasions maybe but even then never get drunk.
I am very against any drugs, have never even tried a cigarette, so definitley no weed etc.
Never have taken non prescription drugs a part from mutivitamins, and pain medication like paracetamol/aspirin etc.

Still waters run deep. Just because you SHOW no emotion toward the OW, doesn't mean you FEEL no emotion. Don't kid yourself.

Ok I feel I've been pushed to this. Below I've pasted the private NC letter I gave to OW. I've edited all the profanities with ** so theres no clue as to what it was, but I couldnt remove them completely as you guys need to understand the severity of the letter.

You all seem to believe I still feel something for OW, am still seeing OW or will fall back to OW just because im still working with her.

If you do decide to read it you'll hopefully understand why im getting frustrated at answering the same questions regarding absent feelings towards OW that you dont believe ARE actually absent.

To the moderators, you have my word that this is the last rude/profane/graphic literature I will post but I feel its important to get people understanding my side of this horrid story.

PLEASE DO NOT READ IF EASILY OFFENDED - THIS CONTAINS VERY GRAPHIC MATERIAL AND EDITED PROFANITIES.


Enough is enough! I�ve stayed quiet for the sake of my job as I actually wish to provide for my kids. I don�t expect someone who chooses to abandon their kid every time an opportunity for sex comes around to understand! And now you feel like you have some right to insult me and my family? What the ** ? My hair didn�t bother you when you were getting what you wanted did it?

I didn�t even know that you existed for the 8 months before we got involved, you were just a �nobody� at work and should have stayed that way, I ** hate the day I ever met you. How dare you ** insinuate that you didn�t know I was married, we had started spending time together outside of work before I even told you that my wife and I were separated and even then you didn�t give a ** as you didn�t ask me anything about it!! I wasn�t even �into you� but you made yourself so damn easy and available that I was sucked in to your sick little game. But that didn�t bother you as this had already happened with at least 3 other �involved� men that I have personally spoken too, �Paula�s partner ring a bell?�

Do you remember when you told me that you always liked me from the first time you saw me? And I told you the same. Well truth is as I said I don�t even remember you before we got involved let alone found you attractive. In fact even after what we�ve been through I look at you know and can�t believe that no matter how messed up I was, that I ever saw anything in you; you�re completely hideous.

Have you got any idea how ** annoying it is to spend time with someone so self involved that every conversation MUST be turned onto themselves. All that time spent in my car was so ** painful just talking about you, you and you. That�s why I needed a drink to numb me sometimes.

As for the cinema trip, I don�t remember anything about it except for my wallet being lighter when we left. Were you even there?? Your company isn�t worth **, you�re only interested if the conversation is on you, which now I see is because you�re the only person that�s important in your life, including your own daughter.

I can�t believe I wasted so much time and energy texting you as much as I did, when I could have been texting my wife who is actually worth caring about. I just wish I hadn�t lost sight of how much I loved my wife and made this wretched mistake, and especially with someone so worthless.

Do you really believe that I loved you? Sorry to inform you but your completely unlovable, you�re a ** and a horrible manipulative **. I only said it to keep you happy as I felt sorry for you but I could NEVER love you. You tried to convince me that you have had commitment issues in the past and that�s why you were single, but hey news flash, it�s because you�re a pathetic user.

When I ended our time together, I believe I made it clear that I wanted nothing to do with you whether I stayed with my wife or not but just in case you�re in doubt I�ll clear it up. I was being polite, I realised how much I still loved my wife and was trying to let you down gently, something I wish now that I hadn�t bothered doing, you deserved to feel as much pain as my family did at your hands. You may have suffered a little humiliation over the following months but that is nothing compared to what you should have suffered you home wrecking **.

It�s pathetic that your entire social life is with people from work; no wonder you�re so manipulative; if you lost your job or work colleagues you�d be completely alone. It�s ironic that your house and family is in just as much of a mess as your life. What a pig-sty, perfect for little miss piggy to live.

Did it bother you that I didn�t give a ** when you tried to make me jealous with all the male attention you were getting?? They only wanted easy meaningless sex with the store **��. The fact is you don�t just play the part; you look the part with your dyed hair in ponytails and your saggy breasts.

I find it hilarious that for someone who�s been ridden more times than the Gatwick express that you�re so ** and lifeless in bed?? You were quick enough to openly strip off like a pro and get into bed but it stopped there. You didn�t even know what you were doing?? Your attempts to touch me intimately were shameful and as you noticed I couldn�t even get hard for you. How embarrassing for you lol. Even in bed you are so selfish, you are a taker with no intent to please. You have absolutely no idea how to please a man!! Which considering your experience just shows exactly how self obsessed you are. Supposedly this is the thing in life your best at, seducing men! Wow you better go find a new hobby lol


Do you realise even a professional hooker knows to use protection!! I didn�t know what the hell I was doing and yet still I managed to bring condoms. At least I knew I was clean but Jesus your record is disgusting, you�ve been a ** for years, have you ever used protection? You�re a filthy, cheap, nasty ** and you have NO standards what-so-ever.

You weren�t even aware that I had had a vasectomy so didn�t it bother you that you could fall pregnant?? Another unwanted baby?? Another great example of your motherly instincts�..

Even after one of the two times we were intimate you didn�t even get up and clean up, just how disgusting are you? Do you really have no standards what so ever?? You�re nothing but a crusty **.

And as for the cuddling up after, the only thing I remember is being attacked by your disgusting man stubble!!

Rest assured I�m never going near a travel lodge again its just the right place to take a low life like you as its as shabby as you are and I bet you knew that too when you�re the one who chose it, have you no class? I don�t want a single thought about you, you filthy **.

I still wonder if you use the sob story of being raped to dupe men into bed. As that�s the only reason I ever even went near you again I felt sorry for you, it's shocking and disgusting that you would go that far; I have spoken to your best friend of that time period and she indicates that nothing of the sort ever happened.

It�s was disgusting having image flashbacks of you and your fat scabby body near mine, but now you're back to being a 'nobody' where you belong. After standing in front of my wife and pretending to be a nice person and lying to her face you�re lucky I had enough self restraint not to make your life a living hell, but don�t worry there�s still time 

In true stereotypical fashion me being the man and married and you being single everybody assumes that i'm the ** for cheating and using you�� lucky we both know that wasn�t the case. You sank your filthy claws into me when I was vulnerable with your �game plan� that you have perfected from your previous conquests.

Look at our records; I have NEVER cheated on any partners and I�ve been faithfully married for 9 years! I�ve only EVER slept with my wife as sex is something which means a lot to me which is why I am so disgusted with myself and feel so unclean now I�ve wasted myself on you. And I have to live with that forever��

Can you say the same? Lol Well I�m already the fourth �taken� man you�ve got involved with just from the store alone! And that�s just that I know about! Emily�s dad was one of 4 (four) blokes you slept with (also from the store) inside one week lol You truly are the store ** and you should think yourself lucky for getting hold of a decent bloke like myself you cheap **.

Being with you has shown me how truly amazing my wife is and we are stronger than ever now. In a strange way I guess I should thank you, if you weren�t such a filthy human specimen I might have forgotten what an amazing life partner I already have. Now ** off out of my life for good��.


IDEA:
Heres a thought for you all, could it be that after writing this letter which as you can see contains a lot of emotion that having had an outlet to deal with my emotions that they are dealt with and therefore no longer prevailing.

History of letter - I sent this letter approx 3 months after D-Day (Jan '09), I understand I do blame her for a lot of things in the letter and as you are all aware im working on 'owning' my share of the blame now on here.

Wow

That's not an NC letter. That's CONTACT. Read up on NC letters, my friend. You are just stirring the pot. Sorry for your wife to have to read that one.

And you said you felt "nothing" when you see her? What a liar you are!!! Go re-read your post, pal. That is the farthest thing from an NC letter. That's a letter from a man scorned. If you felt nothing, the letter would read:
"I've been selfish to my family by having a relationship with you and it has come to an end. I ask that you respect my desire to never talk to you or see you again as I repair the damage I have done to my marriage. What we did was wrong and I see that now. Please never, ever try to contact me again. Buh-bye."
You go on to talk about how you didn't get pleasure, and her man stubble, etc.
You say you have no emotions? Re-read your letter. There's PLENTY of emotion there.

If I were your wife, I'd make you quit your job TODAY.

Hatred, disgust, rage... those are all emotions. You definitely seem to have them for the OW.

I wonder if you realize how very lucky you are that your BW hasn't kicked you to the curb yet?

And no, that isn't a NC letter. I'm pretty sure there are real examples of NC letters on this site. You can't really write a NC letter anyway until you leave the job. Until then, NC isn't possible.

Good point writer. This is a "I hate your guts but it's your fault I fell for you skank" letter. NC letter is sent AFTER NC is initiated. There has been daily contact, hence this is just a contact between former lovers.

And I get blasted on this forum? This guy MAY be totally off his rocker. This is the strangest NC letter I've seen in my life. Its as if he is blaming her for everything that happened. He is the great guy that was suckered by the manipulative skank. Now he hates her as she has ruined his life, marriage, reputation, self-esteem, etc. If I wrote this TheRoad, IMA, and RIVERA himself would have cussed me out already! THIS IS NUTS!! DUDE

drawkcaB,

The anger you have expressed or felt for the OW then or now is beside the point. Ultimately, it doesn't matter to your W if you hate OW's every muddy, bloody footprint each & every day.

I tried that route myself last spring, hoping that perhaps hating my OW could be some sort of emotional shortcut for me & my W. And, alone in my thoughts, I was able to conjure up huge anger indeed at my OW for her part in things -- for the way she had come on to me, for the way she disregarded my wife, for the way she pleaded hogwash with me on the very day I broke off our affair ("Please, let's run away together, we could make each other so happy!") -- all to the point where I'd have been happy to slap her so hard that I fantasized her head would go 30 feet, factoring in the bounce-&-roll.

But this approach was a dead-end for me, in 2 ways. First, I was the pot-calling-the-kettle-'black', as I was every bit as guilty as she was, and as my responsibility to my W was greater than the OW's responsibility to my W anyhow. In fact, I was 100% responsible for my affair-- not 50%. I alone could've stopped my A. at any time, and should've, if I had given any consideration for the impact upon my poor wife. Second, all the anger or disdain in the world for OW wouldn't have sufficed to address the things I needed to do vis-a-vis my wife's emotional needs. It was necessary, perhaps, but by no means sufficient, for me to forswear the OW in words. What mattered vastly more was that I forswore her with my deeds -- by having no contact, and by focusing my subsequent attention on my wife's other needs.

You alone were 100% responsible for your affair.

You've heard in no uncertain terms that you need to put yourself & your W away from OW -- emotionally, physically, every which way. Hashing over a nasty letter you sent 10 months ago accomplishes not much for you today, except perhaps to confirm that 10 months ago, you lacked the requisite humility that this "recovery" business requires.

You obviously care to do right & do better, or you wouldn't be sticking around here. But stay on-task to the present effort you must give to the woman who thought your ring was worth her 'yes.'

DUDE- True Dat.
Very, very bizarre letter.

Well, I sorta told the MB friends I talk to on FB that I wasn't posting here any more but, boy, this one's brought me out of the closet so to speak.

That is most definitely not an NC letter. I'm the FWW, my A was 7 years ago now.

I remember another WS who wrote a similar letter to the OP and thought that's what was required. It is blame shifting at its worst and I find the whole letter very, very obnoxious.

It's most obnoxious feature is tearing down another human being just to make you feel or look better. It stinks on every level.

If that is a display of your true character I think your BS would be better off without you.

I've also noticed quite a lot of flippancy in your responses. If you can't see that there is nothing REMOTELY funny in this situation you don't just lack emotion, you lack normal human feelings.

Y, re-read my post from this morning! now read what everyone wrote since you posted your letter that you wrote to the OW.
Now,are we ALL wrong? You still need to wake up.
Im not impressed with your letter, and these previous posts by members explains why.
Your letter is NOT a NC letter, it nothing but a letter full of anger and disdain for someone that has hurt you, a letter full of immaturity,and distasteful blaming, you still are not getting it.

Hi KiwiJ, How are things in the Land Up Over?

This Letter to OW was really sad and un-necessary at best!


Emotionally, you have not written a NC letter nor can you until NC is possible.

I'm not going to blast you, even if you do deserve it. I am going to tell you that this letter combined with the song and dance that you are just unable to show emotion tells me how extremely entitled you feel about everything you do.

I feel very sad for your wife.

Emotionally-yllanoitomE
NC stands for N.O. C.O.N.T.A.C.T.
How can you be writing a NC letter to someone you see every day?
That letter just blamed her for all of YOUR mistakes.
Sure, she's a lowlife, but so are you. SHE wasn't the one who took vows with your wife. YOU were.
SHE wasn't the one who gave your wife an STD. YOU were.
SHE wasn't the one who forsaked all that was built in your marriage for some quick satistfaction. YOU were.
You don't lack emotions. You lack remorse. That's worse. You seem to feel lots of love...for yourself.

ok guys im going to ask you to hold off on the NC for a second.

Im seeking the job and will hopefully hear about interview soon.

I'll explain more about the letter later as its not as black and white as your seeing it - but thats my fault for not covering my explaination properly.

Right now my wife is expecting me to leave this evening once kids are asleep, I dont want to lose her, but am unable to show her more than a few weak words.....

Please help me as this really feels like it could be it for us and although my lack of emotions and actions dont show it I really want her.... I just dont know what to say/do

Please treat me as an idiot at this point as thats what its going to take...

Please advise....

You are not unble to show emotion. You are unwilling. If you were truly unable to show any emotion, chances are you wouldn't be married. You care, you just don't want your feathers ruffled. You want to feel enough to get your wife off of your back but not enough to have to change who you are. If you truly do not feel ANYTHING, something is very very wrong. The reason therapy didn't work is because you wanted the therapist to make you emotional. In many ways, emotions are choices. Impulses may not be, which is why temper is not a problem. But showing emotion is an act of the will in many ways. I believe that you do not WANT to see who you have become. So you keep it at arm's length.

Make the choice. List all the ways you have hurt your family, and read it back to your wife if necessary. Live with it. Sit down with your wife, hold her hand, then ask what she is feeling. And hold her while she tells you.

Why are you not even ATTEMPTING to meet your wife's ENs?

I totally agree about this letter being anything but NC. My H wrote one of the weenie-ish NC letters I have ever seen (this was pre-marriage builders or I would have had him re-write it) and yet it was short and to the point. Did not use any emotional words re: their relationship. The only time he mentioned "love" was in reference to me.

yllanoitomE, how could words from a stranger's mouth be more suitable than the words that are in your heart? You've got a career, a family, a computer that you know how to use, I don't buy it that this is beyond you...

You've been going on for days about owning your actions & admitting your fault, but this ongoing rubbish we're hearing, to the effect that your "lack of emotions" is the obstacle, strikes me as a refusal by you to let go of an excuse to shirk fully admitting to yourself how low you once sank. Let go of the excuse. Just say to yourself that there was no excuse. You may find it a bit liberating, insofar as it's the truth.

Look, man: When I got on these boards 2 months ago, I'm not sure that I'd been able to fully accept my wife's forgiveness. And the reason was, that I hadn't wrapped my mind around what it was that I needed to be forgiven for; I had not gotten to the core of how utterly selfish I'd been during my affair. I still wanted to believe I was a Good Man. Sometimes I still said certain things similar to some things you said ... how I'd only been 'trying to counsel a friend' & how I had been 'naive to the OW's intentions', how my 'positive trait' of empathy for my OW's marital difficulties had clouded my judgement, etc. And yeah, any lawyer could mine a few grains of truth from such rationalizations, but on the whole they all added up to rubbish.

Shut down your computer, go to her. Take her hand & get on your knees. Tell her WHY she is more important to you than anyone else in the world including yourself (if you can do so without lying); ask her what she needs from you, what she needs you to do for her, tell her you want to be again someday the Good Man who she once was sure you were, and then pledge to do it, and then prove you mean what you say.

There's no shortcut ahead for you. You have to be abjectly sorry not once, not for a week or a year, but every day for the rest of yor life, AND you must admit to yourself, fully, what it is that you're sorry for. Then it may come to you to treat her like she deserves, to work hard, to start earning back her trust.

Glove Oil is right. You need to open up if you want to save your M. You opened up to the OW skank and it's killing your wife to remember that. Your love letter (NC letter?) to the OW shows just how much emotion you actually DID feel for that woman. Don't be a coward and hide behind this--own it. Don't blame the skank. She's not the one who married your wife.
Beg for a chance, or pack your chit and live your "emotionally devoid" life.

yllan, I think you can see fairly clearly that this letter has been taken rather differently by people here than you might have thought?

I'm not going to lambast you, because that's been done by others. They've picked up accurately on many issues. Let's just put it in less emotional language.

The letter is essentially a child's attempt to avoid blame. "It was her fault! She made me do it!" This is rationally unsupportable, so it's not surprising you're stuck. And you'll stay stuck, until and unless you truly face up to the truth about yourself.

Let's get down to brass tacks. You were not made to do anything by the OW, and the OW is not the essence of evil to your pure, innocent child.

She sounds much like an awful lot of OWs - a woman with a terrible need to fill her empty spaces with intense emotion and the attention of a man. OWs like her are always scanning for a likely source of that intense attention. You can bet that she's run her fingers - figuratively speaking - over a lot more men that she's had affairs with.

Her victims are the ones with character weaknesses.

She's looking for the ones who harbour self-pity, a sense of entitlement, a lack of adult morality, a fear of being laughed at...

You.

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - that the woman could have done to get you out of your clothes if you hadn't been willing to cross that line. So quit with the blaming, and QUIT WITH THE LYING TO YOURSELF. Every word of hatred and blame that you wrote in that letter should have been addressed..TO YOURSELF.

By projecting all the selfishness and cruelty onto the OW, you can only keep yourself in the blameless zone if you constantly feed that sense that she's evil. So it's really not that surprising that you're a) still keeping her within easy hating distance and b) emotionally stuck. You can't go for a walk when you're trying to push a door shut against pressure from the other side, can you?

Whatever happens to your marriage, you are going to be very easy meat for the next needy woman who senses your feeling of victimhood.

And whatever happens to your marriage, you are not going to grow up until you are ruthlessly honest with yourself about every choice you made along the road to infidelity. Get real with yourself. You made a ton of choices. Will I tell this woman about problems in my marriage? Will I let her comfort me? Will I bask in the warm glow of her sympathy? If she touches me, will I let her hand stay on me? Will I touch her? Do you get it, yllan? YOU made many, many selfish choices along the way.

Right now, you sound as if your message is 'My wife is at the end of her tether. My marriage is collapsing. Poor me!'

You certainly don't lack emotions. But your unwillingness to feel the emotions of shame, guilt and appropriate self-disgust are blocking any capacity to feel compassion. Without that, BH is better off without you.

TA

Well said TA.

TA!!!!

wonderfully written, very simply explained, you nailed it TA.
YLLAN!! you'd better pay attention to what has been written.
you are all about you, we see it from here, Your W see's it from there! You need to show your W how remorseful you are, you know the saying, talk is cheap.

I repeat my question:

Why are you not actively attempting to meet your wife's ENs?

Cos, I see what some of hers are, and I see that you did nothing but sit like a lump on a pickle last night.

For a man who "wants to save his marriage" you sure are doing a whole lotta nothing.

TA got it right! If you glossed over that post, go back and read it again.

Ok first the infamous letter. I am shocked and frustrated about the responses to the letter, but I will believe it is down to my communication.

That letter was written in anger (pretty obvious), this anger stemmed from the this:

after D-Day I was trying to focus on wife and marriage and was also trying to ensure NC as strickly as I could will still working with her. OW predominatly works at front of the store as front end supervisor (till/checkouts) and im controlling the stock side in the back of the store. Should I need to venture to the front I would wait until she had gone on break or was busy elsewhere and complete my task. This wasnt done like a sneaking school boy but tactfully and nobody picked up on it. Any communication went through other people so what im getting at is contact was minimal if not absent.

What she was doing was posting on her and her friends facebook page, slagging off my wife!! and I, getting her friends to instigate contact or laughing behind my back. Then she fausly got police involved by her and her friends lying again about my wife and I having violent natures and she was scared.

So everytime my wife and I would get a calm moment together to try to improve things she would rear her ugly head and my wife would go mental demanding justice. Usually me going and ripping her to threads. I maintained NC to my wifes horror. This persisted and in the end I decided along with my wife to write a letter to her directly, making her feel horrible about her actions, showing her that I didnt give a damn and that we were staying together (my wife and I).

My wife proof read the letter and we altered it accordingly and then sent it. I accept that its not a NC letter in accordance with these forums but at the time it was a 'cross us again if you dare letter' and it worked she quietened right down and wouldnt even look in my direction (she would give me evils before).

No more facebook comments no nothing.....

Maybe you still wont approve but for my wife and I it did the trick, so I would hope you can see it a little more from my side now.

I didnt love OW and certainly wouldnt touch her with a bargepole now or ANY time in the future.

I didnt do the right thing by leaving, I was excited at transfer from store but once that was sabotaged and my sickness went to final written warning I guess I gave up on leaving.

I FULLY accept this was wrong and am serious about leaving even if it has been this long.

Yeah, it did the trick all right. How's that working for you now, sleeping at your folks' house? You've got to be a MAN and accept what you did to your marriage.
No more pussyfooting around. OWN your mistakes. Get in there and fight.
BTW, if I was trying to make a case that you were an unstable, violent person, I'd show that letter to the police. Nice going. Filled with venom and vulgarities, that sure did show you were stable. Not.
If this situation was this bad, you should have quit your job a year ago. Actions speak. No contact might mean moving to another town. Either that or just divorce. You don't seem willing to do any of the hard work.

You're missing the point entirely!

Your letter STILL shows your state of mind then and your justifications and rationalizations show your state of mind now!

Justification and rationalization are like masterbation...... you're only skrewing yourself!

What

are

you

doing

to

try

to

meet

your

wife's

ENs?

BTW: you are totally focused on the wrong stuff here. The letter is NOTHING. The letter means NOTHING.

Your wife was a puddle last night and you did NOTHING.

You use a whole lot of words and have ZERO actions to back up those words.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda...

No wonder your wife is fed up.

I just found a new favorite line to replace 'resentment is like taking poison...' line.

I hope my recent post made this clearer but if not then I guess im beyond help?!!?? I've tried everything to explain my feeling and contact with OW and have nothing more to say or offer of you still believe im wrong?? I cannot do anymore so I REALLY hope my latest post helped explain situation a little better.



ok I have to say I do match these traits, your spot on with that...



Maybe this is the case - the issue I have here is that my W is convinced the OW is evil and wont let me forget it. Unless I utterly hate her guts my W has made it VERY clear that this will never be acceptable. But by hating her your saying I wont hate myself as that means I would be blaming her?? Is that right???



Yes I made a ton of horrendous choices, your right and I logically hate myself for that and for not thinking about my W for a minute. But how do I FEEL hate?? I struggle to feel emotions whether reading/talking/shouting etc.... A few posts above it was suggested that being emotional was a choice! yeah right come on, if it was I or at least 4 professionals would have had some luck. Its NOTHING to do with will power in my eyes (I sense another 2x4 coming). Again im just being honest to see if someone can understand and guide me.



I guess I do feel sorry for myself as everyone is tearing me apart believing that I do know what to do, im just having fun watching my wife die inside before my very eyes. Like im thinking hmmmm a little longer and ill MAKE THE CHOICE to be emotional.. Come on people not even Satan is that evil!! Maybe, just maybe its not as easy for me as you all think it is??! IM STRUGGLING and im losing badly and im completely lost LIKE A LITTLE BOY!



Your right I dont feel the compassion you talk of. But how do you suggest I go about feeling?? Ive made lists and read and re-read them, I've spoken to my wife and shes poured her heart out to me about how shes feeling and what I did to her (while crying and hurting), Ive read and re-read emails between the three of us W,OW and me but nothing has helped me???

I may not be normal but can I really be beyond all help????

Emotion aside, what are you DOING to meet your wife's ENs?

***** it.

It's all about you.

I give up.

yllan, take the focus off you & your feelings. You can help yourself by helping your wife & attending to her needs & feelings.

I refer you to paragraphs 4 & 5 of my page 7 post on your thread. Or to anything tst, dealan-de, togetheralone, ima, or others have already said, as they say it more succinctly & with more experience to back them up. Don't know how else to drive the point home.

At least tell us you're not really sitting at mum's with your wife's heart on the bottom of your shoe while she sits at home distraught because you were too full of pride to beg her to keep you.

Nope hes sitting here getting me to talk about how not emotinal he is, i know i said i wouldnt post on his thread but im seriousely close to maiming him. He is NOT doing anything! Just sitting here going on and on and on and on and about his freacking lack of emotions.
I ask u this DOES HIM BEGGING ME TO KEEP HIM involve emotions? NO it involves humility and letting go of his stupid pride. Hope he enjoys cuddling up to his pride tonight, hope his pride can keep him warm at night cause i sure wont be anymore.

Again, it's all about him.

Maybe mummy's house is the place for him. Lord knows he has her sympathy already. He sure as he.. isn't getting any from me.

Lack of emotions...pft.

BS.

It's all smoke and mirrors BH. He's trying to make YOU and not recognizing his "lack of emotions" his excuse.

There is no lack of emotions. There is IGNORING.

IGNORING is all the action you'll get from him for awhile. What are the CONSEQUENCES of him IGNORING you?

and Emo - dude, if you're reading this, I've got to tell you when you bury your head in the sand like you are doing, it makes are really good target of your butt!!!!!!!!!!! You are tempting your wife to kick that target to the curb.

Man up and take some responsibility for what you do and don't do.

Geez.

yllan-

There is a reason that you have chosen to disconnect with your emotions. Only you know why you choose to keep your emotions-your true feelings-bottled up. Until you can let yourself experience emotions, you will never be able to "feel" anything. If you never are able to "feel" anything with your heart, you will never be able to have empathy. Without empathy, you will never be able to understand the deep, searing pain you have caused your W. Without this understanding, you will never be able to do anything to repair the damage you have caused.

So it all comes back to this: what are you willing to do?

IMHO, your task is to figure out why you have bottled up your emotional self (except for negative emotions that you seemed to be able to express in your letter to the OW) and then take the very hard task of actually "feeling".

Then, you might be able to save your M.

Thank you, this post gave me the inspiration along with everyone talking about Owning to get off my butt and do something rather than nothing.

What I would say to everyone reading this thread, FOR NOW we are going to have to agree to disagree about the emotional thing as its just going to go round and round. Once im deeper into this process and have had time to work on myself etc.. I will re-address.

This worked as it wasnt emotional advice but practical and right now thats what I need to help my wife. Emotional is good long term but right now I need practical advice and ideas of how to help my wife.

Thanks for putting up with me, im not going anywhere....

Hi and thank you for your post. This is my belief and I think it happened way before the A. I still refer to 5 year old (then baby) who went through so much after his birth. All the operations, almost losing him to meningitis, broken ribs from hospital, 13 month high court case and so on. Im pretty convinced it was during this time that I subconciously shut-up-shop.

Since then ive tried 4 different types of therapy to re-open focusing on that time frame but nothing has worked.

Any advice?? Im asking as I thought maybe if you figured this out, you might be able to advise??

This may sound a bit simplistic, but you should check out a book called "How We Love" by Milan and Kay Yerkovich.

It's not a "marriage recovery after an affair"book. It's more of a "why do we connect or disconnect with each other" book. I think it might help you understand why you don't feel like you can express your emotions.

It's a start.

Thanks JT

It is a start, I will be reading SAA with wife first though as thats important for both of us and not just me. But i'll keep that on the radar.

Thanks again.

we get that you had an awful scare with your son, and that is horrible, but at least you can name it to blame it, you know what caused your emotional detatchment, you've won that battle.
now, practice makes perfect, no one can pick up an instument and play it beautifully, or speak and foriegn language without study, so, get down on your knees, grab your wife's hands, beg her to stay and work this out with you, that you are NOT going to blame the OW anymore, (so what if she said crap on FB and her friends were with her, its the consequences of your actions, move on) and start with begging, tell her you are going to read the literature here and go to MC, ask her what is it she would like you to do for her and to prove she is the one you want to be with and most of all that you are going to work, practice and study on how to get the marriage to work.
And please, stop blaming the OW or anyone else.

Think of "lack of emotions" as walls.

You don't lack emotions. You lack empathy. What you have done to your wife is take the emotions and compassion and empathy you should have shared exclusively with her and given it to another woman - a thief who gladly took what you stole.

Now you want to continue to withhold yourself - staying aloof and trying to intellectualize how to fix this.

Start with your lack of empathy. It's the same lack of empathy that killers lack for their victims.

How do you grow empathy? It's a psycho-social stage of development you skipped over and it needs to be learned. You start by serving and sharing. Listening and reflecting. Literally. Walk. In. Your. Wife's. Place.'

Get outside yourself and serve your wife. Rub her feet at the end of the day instead of thinking how tired you are. Serve her instead. Rub her shoulders, if she'll let you. Her own walls are going up, out of sheer self-preservation. You have been so destructive in your lack of empathy toward your wife. You arent' beyond capability, because you've demonstrated enough empathy to develop relationships. But once you have them "captive" you shut the empathy off.

What do you think? By sitting there, while your wife is crying her guts out, that somehow she'll heal herself and still tolerate your selfishness?

It's time to let that go, because one way or another that ship has sailed. It's gone. You can no longer be selfish and preserve your family.

Stop lying to us that you lack emotions. You lack empathy - and there's a HUMONGOUS DIFFERENCE between those two character defects.

You know, it doesn't always take "emotion" on your part to meet her emotional needs. It seems your wife has a need for domestic support (keeping the house nice). You don't seem to want to do that. It doesn't take emotions to pick up a sponge or do a load of laundry.
If your wife has a high emotional need for respect, you can show that to her by being polite and looking her in the eye when she's talking to you.
No one is asking you to break down and cry here. Just man up. Ask your wife what she NEEDS and GIVE IT TO HER. Very simple. Very unemotional.

Hi

Here is a list of all the things I am ready to OWN and DO OWN about my behaviour before during and after A.

In order to achieve the owned list I sat down and wrote a list of all the hurtful things I can remember that took place at the time of the affiar then crossed out anything that I had doubts about owning.

Once I completed list I discussed it with W and we both agreed on the things I own and removed anything with doubts, so the below list is the comprehensive list of everything I currently own.

As I progress through the MB progress I will be updating the list as I know there is much more to remember and own.
-----------------------------------------------------------
LIST OF THINGS OWNED

* Treated W appallingly before A
* Didint notice W during A
* Dindnt stop to think about W and kids during A
* Made effort to spend time with OW
* Made inappropriate comment on a womans picture on Facebook
* Used up works holiday hours on A
* Used separation/thinking time to get closer to OW
* Used family money on A
* Used W feelings to rescue me from car trouble caused from
spending time with OW
* Kissed OW
* Made effort to take OW out on dates and make plans together
* Risked my carreer for OW
* Had sex with OW first time
* Had sex with OW second time
* When I was late back from second SC with OW took out guilt on W.
* Told OW that I loved her
* Didnt use protection with OW
* Was having SC OW and W.
* Considered OW needs and gave set dare to end M.
* Told W I had stopped loving her when I hadnt.
* Didnt end A myself before D-Day.
* Didnt listen to W needs after D-day.
* Didnt write NC letter to OW immediately (or since)
* Didnt clarify to OW after D-Day that I didnt love her.
* Put work ahead of W needs
* Refused to tell work about A and not trusted my W that it was necessary
* Didnt put a stop to OW friends humiliating my family
* Put own reassurance with OW ahead of W needs
* Considered OW feelings after W suicide attempt in car.
* Allowed W to walk out of hospital without seeking urgent medical treatment after she took overdose in an attempt to commit suicide a second time.
* Fought W coming to my workplace
* Refused to beleive OW character even with proof after D-Day
* Didnt destroy W positive images of A
* Did a full body parts comparison between W and OW to W.
* Called W "Limpet" when she sought affection from me after D-Day
* Dont take W with me mentally when I am at work
* Continued to work with OW despite pain caused to W
* Not avoided contact with OW
* Made no effort to improve M
* Left W to heal on her own
* I have to stop Justifying
* I am easly distracted form working on M
* Dont seek advice/use resources when need help
* Accept my actions have caused huge amout of pain and suffering
* I made OW feel good about herself. Not done that with W.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Feel free to ask/comment on any of the points in the list as some points may make more sense to us than you due to abbreviations.

Not a half-bad list, as it stands.

But let's look to the future. "Owning" is quite necessary, but not sufficient. The point of it isn't to get you to mentally beat yourself to death for your past failures (though I've found that a good self-flogging from time to time is healthy for those of us who've put ourselves & our families in this situation!) Rather, your list is a reminder of things you need to atone for, with honorable present & future conduct, kindness & consideration, if you want to become your wife's proverbial knight-in-shining-armor again. [Or armour, however you spell it over there.]

The next list you make should be of the good things you're going to do for her to learn (or re-learn) & meet her various needs. Start doing those things, making them a habit, and things can turn around. (There's no guarantees that they will, mind you, but focusing on the things you can do for her now will give your marriage a fighting chance over the next several, difficult weeks & months.) Let's see that list, & soon.

Its good, its real good. You can probably expect a period of depression once it all starts to sink in as to what you've done to your wife and your family and YOURSELF!! DUDE

thats a good start Y, you may be getting it after all.
ok, now that the list of things you've done is written, and you see in black and white what you've created, read Gloveoils post about getting on track with what you'll do to fix that list, the things you'll do to make your W feel wanted and worthy again. ask her what she would like you to do, no matter how insignificant it feels to either one of you.

I missed it: did you mention giving your wife an STD?

Yll, all these things could have been said of me when I was in my A and the months following d-day, except of course it is H in my case and OM:

Didint notice W during A
* Dindnt stop to think about W and kids during A
* Made effort to spend time with OW
* Made inappropriate comment on a womans picture on Facebook
* Used up works holiday hours on A
* Used separation/thinking time to get closer to OW
* Used family money on A
* Used W feelings to rescue me from car trouble caused from
spending time with OW
* Kissed OW
* Made effort to take OW out on dates and make plans together
* Risked my carreer for OW
* Had sex with OW first time

My A was 18 months long. A very intense emotional and physical A.

After d-day I was numb and could have been called emotionless but really it was only my H I was numb to. I spent many, many hours on MB asking if it was possible to recover my feelings for my H. I think you are thinking you are emotionless when you are really having a hard time admitting you feel cold towards your W. I don't want to say that is normal after an A, but unfortunately, it does happen.

My work was to see things clearly, accept all the blame and recover my love and feelings for my H. I knew it could be done. I knew I'd loved him for the 28 years we'd been married before my A. (We've been married 35 years now).

When I told someone here I didn't even "see" my H during the A I was asked if I could even imagine how that must have felt for him. It made me think and think hard.

Hey gloveoil, thanks for the post, and in fact all the other great advice and insightful posts you've offered me.

Yes of course the list isnt just for show, as my beautiful wife would say 'its for DOING.' I plan to re-read this list whenever I get a chance until I literally live the list. Plus I still wish to add many things.....

I will definately give the list a go as your advice has been sound so far

No we spoke last night about breaking down some of the points on the list further to clarify them.

I definately do own this and I will update list, thanks for keeping a close eye

Many bad things occur during an affair period and we have to be strong enough to wgole heartidly accept them as our fault and thats never easy but im really trying hard to stop justifying, start empathising, and continue to own.

I believe the only way I was able to actually have the A was because I had already shut down to my W. Hence not being able to see her etc... Im trying to empathise to see if it helps me feel closer to her emotionally.

Just filled in Steve H's questionaires, roll on next thursday

Sorry missed this post before but I'll reply now. As far as domestic support, I was hoping she would have cleared this up herself as she is very fair even when angry.

Ive ALWAYS since we first lived together 9 years ago had a huge part to play domestically, in fact most wives were gelous I would work full shift and still do majority of housework. My wife suffered with Cronic Fatigue courtesy of PCOS (polycycstic ovary Syndrome) badly for first 6 years of M so I was largely in charge of the house which I was fine with.

Last year or so shes improved a lot and we shared the housework evenly upto this period.

Obviously this hasnt been possible to maintain recently as shes been sick for a couple of weeks and so I had full care of kids, still had full time job to do and as she was sick she was very emotional. There was NO physical way I could maintain my level of input into the house.

Since we've found MB our family dynamics have changed a lot. I still manage daily housework but no more, as on here or working on M. This takes me longer to plan/execute as most as it takes me a while to 'get it' as you've all noticed (Hopefully this will become more natural as I move foward)

The only thing im not doing at the moment is getting more than 0-4 hours sleep for past 8 days. Ive asked wife to support ME more domestically to allow me to continue with M commitment.

Ive never been disrespectful while talking to her, Im happy to look into her eyes

wahoo, postman just delivered SAA just in time for my weekend off, beautiful Finally something happened conviently lol

Do I have to wait for wife as I told her not to read it without me at any cost lol

See, the thing that worries me about this "oversight" is that this was the one that your wife seemed to be the most upset about in her very first post. I know you find it hard to accept that you put your manhood into a sewer pipe then infected your wife. It's disgusting, I agree. It's embarassing. But it should have been one of the first two or three things on your list. Some of the "I wasn't in touch enough" kind of items are inconsequential. You gave your wife an STD. It's foul, I know. But own it. You'll get over it sooner, I promise. My recovery may have been stalled because I don't think my own H "owned" the most egregious things from back then.

Hey yllan,

The pieces will keep slotting together. Sooner or later the penny will drop and you will be embarassed about these early posts - happens to all of us FWW.

I couldn't get close to my H after my A, part of it is admitting to yourself - your list is a good start.

Now with that list, think on how each of those items made your wife feel and write it down - practice some empathy, for each of those items try to imagine how you would have fely had it been the other way round.

TO do this you will need time alone with no distractions - and you will have to work hard to let your mind think these things. Do some relaxation breathing and then focus on the list.

Hope you make great strides over the w/e (I really think you can do it - FWIW)

The STD was the #2 thing on your wife's list of unacceptable behavior, yet it failed to make your list of what? 25 or 30 items? Hmmmmm.

W is working next two days and the monday I dont have any kids here either so should be a great day for me to spend QUALITY time on M, something I havent really had so far. The empathy side of things is very important for me to male progress on as this is still effecting everyday life, up to this morning.

Unfortuntely not good day today. Am off work this weekend and was expecting to spend lots of time with W, working together. This morning was taken up with house and kids and by the time we were free (1:30pm) I didnt really know what to do. Ive got plenty of ideas for ways to make progress on my own but not much we can do together.

Im desperate to start reading SAA tonight, but not sure wife is ready to commit, due to bad day. Shes out at the moment, so ill do something nice for when she returns, maybe a nice hot bath and hopefully she'll soften enough so we can start SAA.

Hope your all doing well

Your right but over the next couple of days ive finally got QUALITY time to invest. Im aware of my owned list and im making sure im aware of the other items that im not ready to own but working on them. I understand the moving on will be 10 times easier if I 'own' the issues.

Thanks for your imput

Did you and the W read over the weekend? how are things?

Yes we did thanks We havent got that far into SAA but its proving a good read. Its making us both think a lot and causing many thought provoking convosations. Im reading it to her in bed at night and usually I fall asleep VERY quickly but im reading this and talking for hours. Definately enjoying it, think shes getting fed up with me going on about it lol

I personally think things have improved a little. Im trying hard to offer her emotional support and control difficult situations better than before. Im working hard with the ideas from MB although I think if she sees another list shes going to freak lol

Think I will concentrate on DOING rather than LISTING lol I have enough to go on for now - Thanks for all assistance so far.

Thanks also for putting up with my earlier crap and sticking with us it means alot....

>DOING

TOUCHDOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good to hear you're working through SAA together. Keep hanging with it. Follow her lead on how much she wants to talk about stuff, though, as there may come times when she just gets to "shut-down" stage & needs a break.

Tip: You might want to edit your comment about "enjoying" any aspect of this just yet. (I'm not sure "enjoy" is quite the word your wife would use to describe things, as I'm sure you appreciate). There'll be things to enjoy about your recovery when you're a bit further along the road, be patient & you can get there.

I dunno, GO.


There IS a certain JOY in learning and applying and SEEING the Harley techniques IRL instead of on paper or screen.

Equally, there is a certain JOY in seeing your spouse respond to your applications with appreciation.

Fair points, Dealan. In my own experience, there's definitely been joy to be found in rediscovering one another & fixing what infidelity has very nearly destroyed, true enough. If his W is ready to call it enjoyable, then it's probably safe for yllanoitomE to use the term.

To be perfectly honest it was selfish 'enjoying', I guess after I had achieved so little over the previous year, and got to the point last week of almost loosing her again, now ive managed to find focus and an 'interested' in SAA and of course MB that I cant help but to 'enjoy' the moment.

My W has clearly become more relaxed as she sees things happening around her, but enjoying, no I wouldnt go that far. Although i'm making progress she still comments that I'm not directly meeting her daily EN, so I'll have to work on encorporating that a little better as well.

Thanks for checking in, always appreciate your inputs as thats what kickstarted these improvements

p.s. read more of SAA, again not a vast amount but its leading to us both having revelations and interesting chats along the way. Coaching on Thursday

Im so glad your sticking to it! stay with us here, don't give up on any of it, you'd be surprised how fast you, your W, the M will go "back" if you stop working on it, it goes "back" faster then it goes forward and sometimes its very discouraging when you think you've gotten one lump out of the carpet (from sweeping it under there) only to have it reappear

This is making much more comfortable reading. Doingfine has summed up the rate of progress, it needs to be kept on top of. As you will have seen from other posts - it is definitely ups and downs.

Keep up the good work!

Has your W done the emotional needs Questionnaire yet?

This sums up the situation perfectly. I have every intent of hanging around, I wouldnt cut of the people who helped me and wander blindly into the woods.....

It can be very discouraging, if you read her thread you'll see im genuinely trying to make progress for the M but she still feels unhappy about her EN's. I guess its easier to work from lists and tackle one thing at a time. Its very structured. However meeting her EN's in the mean time im finding very tough. Anyone know of a method to extend the day to maybe 30hours lol

Meeting her EN's isnt a simple job at all, Ive always struggled to come up with ideas and make them happen. I have to spend twice as long to come up with EN opposed to M progress so therefore there wont be any M progress, but she'll be happier (until she realises theres no M progress ) - NO WIN SITUATION

Finding it VERY hard to achieve both...... Guess practice makes perfect eh??? CHIN UP

Thanks for continuing to check in....

I DO have a ray of hope, Emo.

Your babies are still too little to leave with the eldest, but when he's old enough to babysit you both are gonna LOVE it!

This past year or so my dau has been sitting on her siblings (not literally), and our love banks are pert near to bursting.

It was really hard to get that 15 hours a week in before...and I suspect with how young your kids are, you two probably have the same problem. Is there any way your mom and dad could sit on the kids every once in awhile for you two? Getting that 15 hours a week goes a l-o-n-g way towards working on each other's ENs!

- Kimmy

I all to well understand the situation, yes time alone is difficult as most people would have adult time in evenings but thats when im at work!! We were only discussing the other day about what life would be life is say 3 years once all 4 kids at school and having 9am-2pm available EVERYDAY lol It scared us both lol it terms of what we would do, we're living our life as caged animals but when caged animals are released into the wild they cant deal with it. Same situation lol Silly i know but hey.

Trouble is we dont have 3 years, in this situation much longer with EN's not being met id give my wife 3 weeks before giving up

Kust finished my half of chat with Steve but not posting yet as wife still having her chat. Very insightful though.....

Sorry wife was logged in lol that was me.....

Ignore this post just testing email notification, thanks

I think the biggest surprise for me in this journey is how SIMPLE M is?? Not the doing (that still confuses the hell out of me) but the basics. The simple understanding that if a single EN isnt met an A is possible. We all try to blame many contributing factors but its really as simple as understanding EN's.

Also we talked about CAUSE of A. I was thinking circumstancial, feeling down etc.. he said 'NO TRY AGAIN', after trying a couple of times he said, think basics, think yourself. I just didnt see that affair was caused because I didnt protect my weaknesses with bounderies. Hard for me to accept as I always believe everything happens for a reason. So if I had A it was because I was depressed, she preyed on me, I enjoyed new friendship with stresses etc.... Nope I didnt protect my weaknesses of character and made bad decision afterbad decision off the back of that...

Hmmm...... thinking........

I do hope you'll tell us more about the session with Steve. I'm glad it made you think.

In the meantime, though, I understand that you and your wife are planning to go to the office Christmas party. Several of us have told your wife that this is a bad idea and that neither of you should go. At the moment she is arguing with us. She wants to show OW that she is strong and that you are not interested in OW.

We are telling her that going to the party is a form of contact for your wife and you. You must avoid all contact that is not necessary for work. (Any news on the shortlisting for the job through the friend's company? Are you looking at other possibilities in case that one falls through?)

Please withdraw from this party. It cannot be compulsory, even for management.

Your wife has flogged herself at the gym to look fabulous for that night, and she will be disappointed if you do not reward her efforts, so take her somewhere nice (not necessarily on that night; ignore the party altogether) and treat her like a queen. But please; no contact with OW by going to the party. Perhaps you could ask Steve about this next week.

Your wife is a strong-minded Italian woman (or "Italian woman" for short) and I don't envy you the task of saying no to her, but you must on this.

The Xmas party isnt compulsory, but unfortunately its a no win situaton for me. I dont want us to go for exactly the reasons you've stated but if I argue the point she will say im hiding something. That I dont want her to see me and OW together. So im trying to be supportive. Yes it could turn out VERY bad I dont doubt that for a second, im worried about her behaviour (acting natural, not obsessing, not confronting her etc..) but Im very guilty of underestimating my wife in these situations as she has shown me in the past, and yes shes very stubborn as your finding out. Im afraid this is her ultimate fantasy/obsession and anyone is going to struggle to change her mind.

Im going to be taking her to the store very soon so I guess we'll start with that and go from there.

I will give you an insight into Steve convosation a little later as my son has a doctors appointment in 15mins.

Thanks for concern, im in your corner opinion wise but in my wifes corner support wise.....

I hope everything goes well with your son.

It is not that the party "could turn out VERY bad"; it is that it will be bad anyway, fundamentally, by its very nature. Even if it "goes well" it will turn out badly.

You are not supposed to have ANY contact with OW, and neither should your wife. Any contact harms your recovery. There is no form of contact that could turn out well. I am not really talking about a scene being caused. I am referring to Dr Harley's insistence that any form of contact sets the recovery clock back to zero.

Please ask for Steve's advice on this, and ask him to talk to your wife. Steve is very good as getting through where the spouse fails, as you have seen yourself.

Lets put it this way, your eyes will NOT be able to wander ANYWHERE at this party, you might as well walk in with a blindfold on, if you are looking that way, you were looking at her, if you look this way your looking for her, the list continues, you wore that cologne for her, that suit for her, and that list continues, I know, because this is what I would say and do. The whole part of this is a NO WIN situation, its the nature of the beast, but you will be adding to the no win, if you go. There is not one thing you will "win" by going, but by not going, taking your W somewhere else, has more to win. Think about what going will prove or do in your best interest, what ONE thing will going to this party do for your M?

I will ask Steve next Thursday (our next session)

I DO agree that its going to be hard for me to appear to do anything right.

In terms of whats to be gained, my wife needs to see that 1) I dont care about OW feelings 2) OW shows guilt/fear/remorse (probably fear) 3) Im willing to stand up for her if it kicks off.

These might you all cringe but ny wife has been very good at knowing what shes needed all along and I havent given her that as I didnt understand it. Thats why im supporting her now.

I get what your saying, but, there are sometimes when something sounds good but at the end of the day it wasen't a good idea after all, I think this is one of those things.
Its a fantasy that your W might have some kind of resolution by going, by thinking there is some relief by going, to look better, to act like its all fine, the OW didn't win etc.

Hi E,

I've been lurking around on your thread for a while.

I found this post interesting, because my H and I have completed 4 sessions with Steve so far. My H told me, after talking with Steve, that the reason he had the A was because "I did not protect my weakness."

I thought this was way too simple and vague, and I didn't feel satisfied with it. I reasoned that there was more to it than that, and your post enlightened me. I get it now. Thanks!

Keep posting about your sessions if you don't mind... it may help me to understand better more of what H says to me after our sessions. H is definitely communicating with me more, and is being more open and honest, but sometimes I need the 'meat' behind what he says, and it's just hard for him to explain it further. He is trying though, so I give him points for that.

As I said I would rather not go, the work xmas parties arent something thats really interested me before let alone now.

But my wife feels SO strongly about this and has done for at least 6 months that I feel im best placed to support her. Maybe im not helping myself or us with this stance but if we dont go she'll always regret it and think what if, even if we do something together instead. At least if we go, shes tried and we deal with whatever happens.

Just to enlighten you, we did boycot last years xmas party. The affair became public at the beginning of November '08 and the war was raging in december so WE decided not to go as it could cause issues with job security and emotional states of mind.

However it did look like we were too ashamed/scared of attending, I down played it well, and managed to deflect most questions but obvisouly the thoughts were there. We're a year on now and still together and we just want everyone to realise how proud we are that we've survived.

Also the OW has made my wife out to be crazed psycho making up hurtful stores about her, so my wife has the ultimate insentive to behave, hence people seeing how nice and geniune she is and maybe reconsidering their own position on OW stories.

Can you compromise on this party thing?
Maybe agree to pop your head in and then go off for a nice dinner?
That would send the message to people that you could go to the party but spending quality time with your wife is more important to you.

Hello then, welcome to the madness....

Serisouly thank you for posting, it sounds like you are both in a VERY similar position to my wife and I.

I will post a more detailed recollection of my chat with Steve later but just posting quickly in between jobs at the moment.

Yes Steve explained that everyone has weaknesses but most people setup bounderies to protect themselves with or without knowing it. When this doesnt happen it leaves that individual wide open.

For example I have a weakness whereby Im a shoulder to cry on. I listen to people struggling with issues and then try to make them feel better. Ive done this on the internet a couple of times now and both times the OW has become attached at a dangerous level. Becuase I was meeting their EN's without any intention on my part. Trouble is during this process I didnt commmunicate this to my wife as I didnt see it coming. It started so harmless and by the time I realised how the OW was feeling I was to scared to tell my wife.

Now im aware of this my boundries are:

Not to be everyones listening ear, unless its a trusted friend, its sounds cold by my priority must be my family and not a stranger

To update my wife instantly of any contact with Women no matter how harmless.

Not to talk to anyone whos not a trusted friend about my family/personal life as it allows then to see my weaknesses.

Talk about my wife and family when meeting new people and even existing people to make them aware thats that what I am, A FAMILY MAN

Where possible introduce my wife and kids, say at work or to new friends, school mums etc.....


These are just quick examples but you get the idea. I still have the weakness but im making sure its not exposed, so no one knows I have it and I can live a weakness free life.

Once boundries are in place thats the ONLY way the BS will be guarenteed of no further issues.

Hope this helps somewhat, please post again, may I encourage you to also speak with my wife BrutallyHonest28 on here if you havent done so far. Also send your hubby my way if hes around.

We sound similar, your H and me in that we arent great with words. My first chat with W went badly last night regarding above issue.

Speak soon

Hmm I like the idea but would it not look like we turned up saw her got scared and left??

Ok peeps need a focus adjustment. Having spoken with Steve 3 days ago, had chat with W that night but it didnt go at all well. Because im a nervous, timid and for last few years - pesimistic person, I didnt talk with conviction, make my realisations seem truthful and just generally didnt make her feel in anyway confident I had started to understand.

Now this is something im trying to address but basically my issue now is, we have booked another appointment with Steve for Wednesday evening (GMT), that parts fine. We both have our questions to ask him. In the meantime I've commited to helping my poor neglected W with some serious 'love bank' work. Basically I have three days to make her feel like its worth carrying on, and that I do want to be here for right reasons.

Now while working on owning, empathising etc is alright for me - I am making progress, especially considering my usual record, EN's is a completely different kettle of fish, im not so good at!

Im asking you guys to hold back on your views of xmas party, working on marriage etc...

I need advice people Think 28 year old, VERY low self-esteem, VERY low self-worth, feels unwanted/discarded/unloved, Shes very emotional and prefers personal meaningful gestures rather than huge trips etc.... Money isnt important to her, meaning is...

Any ideas would be most welcome/appreciated

I need a big push now and need to use ALL my resources to really make an impact on the empty love bank.

Thanks for being here

Hi - Your wife has posted on my thread many times, and I hers. Even though we only communicate through this forum, I can see what a great person she is and consider her a friend. I am in plan B, trying to work on myself and protect my heart, but still hoping my husband will come to his senses.

I wish my WH were trying and commited and you are, that would go a long way with me. I can tell you what I would appreciate from him.

Small token of love - well thought out gift (not expensive) something that I knew came from his heart and not just a peace offering - maybe inspirational jewelry? Silver of course, not gold.

Genuine effort to spend time with me alone - walks ( hold my hand), inexpensive dinner or something that I love to do that maybe he doesn't so much - good movie? - I LOVED Julie/Julia.

Cook dinner for me with kids out of the house. Light candles, make me a bath.

Tell me over and over that he loves me, make me feel loved. Tell my kids he loves me.

Only speaking for what would help for me. Hope this helps.

Hellloooo

Have a few suggestions for you:

BrutallyHonest if you're reading hear, don't reveal the box - go away

Hi CG, Ive seen your thread and can understand why yourself and my wife would be close. I hope your WH comes round to his senses and tries to make things work between the two of you.

I think whats frustrating me is that I always feel like a moron that im not able to please my wife emotionally, but the more I research and the more people post on here the more I feel normal?? All the things you've posted above are things I would do, but not what shes looking for??!?

When refering to the A I've always said that I liked the fact that OW was just happy to have me around and would have bitten my fingers of to have the above - admitidly thats probably because she didnt deserve to have me AT ALL so of course she was happy for any attention - but my point is, am I THAT abnormal if I would do above to show my love to someone???

Any back to scouting web for ideas........

LOLOLOLOL firstly you are too funny ST. I showed my wife and she was laughing too hard lol You totally have her sussed lol.

Anyway down to business.....

AAARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!! read my response to CG above. Samething. I DO these things and yet she says I 'dont get her' and should do more/other things.

Im going to give an example that she gave yesterday (so posting on here won't ruin it). Hopefully by posting this you maybe able to understand her a little better??

As stated earlier she has very low self esteem. She said if I was to buy her some bedroom lingerie she would feel sexy as I chose them to suite her body. Compared to something she already has.

Dont know if this helps, but thanks for trying to help...

Ok just read about 50 threads in the ideas forum and only a couple offer something potentially useful, will use these as at least ill be trying to help situation even if not quite right, but as stated twice above I do or have done just about all of the ideas??

Helpful for me as I dont feel so useless now, but doesnt help my M or W!!!

Right, have just returned home from work and im not going to lie, I've read my wifes thread....... im not going to make all the excuses under the sun or analyse it to much im just going to honestly post how im feeling.

As I've stated above the chat didnt go well after we both spoke with Steve and we decided to focus on LB filling to get W through to next Steve session. We agreed I would have 4 days, sunday through to wednesday (day of next session).

Sunday - my wife worked 6am-2pm and I worked 4pm-12am. During the morning while I was looking after 4 kids I sat down and tried to brain storm ideas. Once at work I had decided to do a text quiz about our past and future. I carefully worded each question to avoid A coming up in W answer. I messed up as I was working directly with Manager I couldnt text. Expected to have break so planned to do it then but manager had taken on big job and for us to leave ontime we worked through break. W was understandibly getting restless now. I started text quiz and first 4 questions went well. She appartently though this was a good idea. However it came the time to leave and so couldnt finish the quiz.

Monday - W worked 6am-2pm I was rota'd 4pm-1am. While W at work I planned ideas for Tuesday and Wednesday as she was off those 2 days and Im also off wednesday so needed bigger plans. I hadnt come up with anything for Monday but still had text quiz to finish so thought i'd be ok till Tuesday. W returned home and as we always do she wanted update. Told her I woke up late and therefore ran late with housework. Updated her on post/phonecalls etc... She asked if I had done anything regarding LB. I said that I had continued planning for tuesday/wednesday. She became very unhappy that she wasnt to recieve any form of effort today. The conversation got more and more heated. I was twitching as the aftermath of the A has already landed me a final written warning at work for absense so anymore and im jobless. We only have a 30min time inbetween her arriving home and me leaving. This had already run out. She got angry and threw my lunch I had prepared out the door into the front garden. Then she closed door and kicked clothes airer. I let her get on with it. She then threw my bluetooth headset and car keys across the room angryly, dont think she was aiming at me but was in my direction. I walked into the kitchen. She followed me screaming and kicked 2nd clothes airer twice. Throughout all this I hadnt retaliated in fact I was clearing up as she went. We both started screaming in the kitchen as she was telling me how much I had given OW. I was screaming that OW had chosen date venues, ordered food etc (im indecicive). She believed I had controlled A when I hadnt. I was getting very frustrated. She walked round the hallway and I followed, she took picture from wall and smashed it on floor in front of me. I watched. She picked up a 2nd picture and through that on floor but it didnt smash (1st one had) I ran forward as she was reaching for a third and grabbed her hand and pinned her against the wall by her throat. Im THOROUGHLY ASHAMED of this as I've NEVER EVER been physical before but I just couldnt see a way out. She was wrecking the whole house and I couldnt get my point across. I screamed stop being psychotic. She repeated it like she thought she was normal. Yes i said and walked off. She left to get cigarettes from shop and I sat down to calm down. She returned and sat down. I got on my knees and said I was sorry and that I loved her and didnt want to lose her. She told me she didnt want to carry on. I begged her to wait until we could speak to Steve next. She wasnt interested. She started to calm (emotionally drained) and told me that if I confronted OW at work and was horrible to her, that would buy me time until I got home and then MAYBE we could talk. I left for work over an hour late. Just returned home and W is asleep. I havent confronted OW as I dont want contact. Shes a disgusting creature and by talking to her over a year since last contact regarding A is going to give her HUGE importance. Shes going to feel good again. Them theres the s**t that will start at store level between her friends again. Plus facebook etc etc..... Not an option in my book.

Its now 3:30am and if she sticks to her guns in the morning we are over. I DONT want this. I do still love her, I do want to be with her. Over the last 10 years I havent been successful at trying to help M. Some ideas have been great but more often than not there are to insignificant. If I do try it normally lasts a few days until we both get swamped by everyday life.

I know trying on its own isnt enough, and im not claiming it is, but for 3 weeks now I have lived and breathed M. Ive watched one tv program, no time on pc and not done ANY other activity etc work, sleep and try. Again im not expecting rewards for just trying, espcecially when shes not even seeing results, but for me this is HUGE progress. But she is continuingly ramming A down my throat and expects me to be able to do everything she can. She finds it so EASY to come up with ideas of things I should have been doing, but it takes me time, and a lot of it, to do the same.

Im really at a loss here. I dont know what im going to wake up to tomorrow but after the school run im going to apologise for the physical attack as that was disgusting and unnacceptable. And see where we go from there.

Im going to try and sneak in bed beside her and enjoy cuddling up while shes defenseless........

Hopefully will get to update tomorrow, if not check her thread.

p.s. I do have an admiration issue due to v. low self esteem but I've been honest above and hope that comes across.

p.p.s. W and kids not in any danger I promise you, if it gets to much I'll walk out next time. Im not a physical person, never have been, in fact Ive also never EVER called her a bad name in a single argument in 10years either.

Do you think most of the frustration is because you still work with OW?

You did not have to grab her by the throat, you totally lost control, even though she was losing it, she really wasent tearing the whole house apart, I destroyed every bit of our wedding parapinial, the bride and groom glasses, flowers (they were silk) everything! I even pawned our wedding set, yes, we lose it, but that is not tearing up the whole house like you stated, it was a few pictures, had she of gotten a gas can and match then ok, but grabbing her by the throat was so not the answer.

I have not read her thread, so I can't comment on her feelings but I am sure there is alot of anger, and this kind of anger is so much frustration that she just can't get relief.

yllan-

I think part of what is going on can be explained by something I saw on "Dr. Phil" a while ago. He was interviewing a couple who were a few years past the WH's A and the H couldn't figure out why his BW couldn't "get over it." After all, the WH had ended the A, and he was home. But things weren't improving.

Dr. Phil told him "Your wife will never, EVER, get over it until she believes in her heart of hearts that you truly understand the pain you have caused her."

You see, you gave something that was very precious to your W away to someone else. You gave away her specialness. Along with it, you took away the security she had in your commitment to her. You traded her trust and faithfulness to you for an A. She doesn't feel safe or special in your love anymore.

It seems to me that you have given up some of your activities to show her that you are here for her, but this isn't what she needs to truly know that you understand the pain you have caused her.

So what if the OW was the one who planned the dates? You went on those dates while your BW was home taking care of your family. You took time from your BW to go out with someone else. So what if the OW was the one who "controlled" the A (as you put it)? You weren't forced to go. You volunteered.

That's the heart of it. It seems to me that your BW feels like she has to "pull teeth" to get you to be willing to be an enthusiastic participant with her, but you were okay doing it with OW.

Let me state that again-it seems to me that your BW FEELS like you were willing to do that for the OW, but not for her.

IMHO, That's what hurts her. You were willing to arrange your schedule to go out with OW and give her your time and your attention, and what you give your W is "I'm not watching TV or playing games on the PC". She doesn't believe that you truly understand the pain you caused her.

The "million dollar" question is then, are you willing to do whatever it takes to heal this pain you caused?

If you are, here's the million dollar answer: "whatever it takes" means whatever it takes. It's different for everyone.

For your W, it may mean breaking out of your comfort zone and doing things with her that you plan. It may mean showing her that you want to meet her needs in the way she needs them met.
It may mean being willing to hold her when she is crying even if it is uncomfortable for you. It may mean saying "I'm sorry I hurt you by betraying you" even if you have to say it a million times.

I hope this makes sense. I do think you and your W have a very good chance of recovering your M, but it will take a lot of work. I also think you are up to the challenge.

Hang in there-

First of all - Emo - STOP READING YOUR WIFE'S THREAD. This accountability needed to come because it was important for your personal recovery to disclose it, not because you needed to "explain" your side of the story. That just makes you look worse. Your wife needs to get feedback on what she has to work on without you. Harley counsels individuals in the marriage; you notice he gave you assignments and her assignments, and he didn't necessarily tell you what she's to work on. Because frankly, what she has to do is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. You have so much to handle just focusing on yourself. So stop reading her thread!!!!

And consider that it's beyond time to get that new job. Every day that you go back to the job you have with OW is killing your wife and your chances of recovery, no matter what else you do - the trigger is still there that makes your wife feel insecure. Right now, I think she'd rather eat glass and live homeless than have the work conditions continue.

So ask your friend/new manager for a letter of recommendation and assurance that he'll be a good reference for your work skills and get that resume out to this new opportunity and to every other opportunity you can find.

It's really tough for everyone right now; you are probably feeling like recovery is impossible. But my husband and I got through a domestic violence incident, and through a rage cycle. Granted, we lived apart for six months and I had to develop a mantra when my husband would unleash a litany of unreasonable demands on me to keep myself calm and let him discover what he needed to do to win me over rather than demand that I change. I worked on myself to be a better person, a better mother, and if the chance was given, a better wife.

The thing is, of your own volition, you are not coming up with the things YOU need to do to win your wife back. Minimal efforts will just enrage her because SHE sees that you invested much more than minimal efforts in OW. And her rage has to do with the fact that you may have always been a minimal effort guy with your wife; she never got the investment you gave this creepy woman you work with.

And it's what she sees and perceives that matters. Not what you remember.

So get your head down and get to work on what Steve has told you to do. And especially find some strategies to deescalate rage situations like you experienced the other night.

Remember, rage is a contagion that can be fatal. At least maritally fatal - if you catch it. Your wife has a lot of rage in her. I don't know how she's going to process it. But you have to find a way to inoculate yourself from catching it. Because you are the cause of it. You have to look at her rages from the view point of this is the harm you have done to her. You have destroyed her sense of person. And you have to find a way to have compassion for her without self-pity.

Get to work on a new job and don't rest until you have one. Stop reading her thread. Do what Steve told you to do, with thoroughness, no matter how exhausted you feel. Every step you take - head down, no matter what she says or does, don't be provoked from your path of loving service to her. It may take the six months it took my husband to win me back. It may take longer. But it can be done. Even after the damage of the other night.

hey thought i should put this WS post here as it can give WS chance to discuss his feelings with MBers on his own thread to cut out excuses of looking at my thread. hope this is appropriate thing to do I promise im not reading this thread i am just posting this here so its out of my thread. For those of you who dont know I am his BS.

1. Get another job.
2. Has your W taken the EN questionnaire and if so, what are her top 3 ENs?
3. Have you read Gary Chapman's "Love Languages" book and if so what is your W's love language?

Your totally right, I didnt have to react like that and we've both discussed the situation, I've told my wife that If I ever get to that point again I will not hestitate to leave the house temporarily to defuse the situation. We are both shocked as its not in our nature to react the way we did that night but at least by being aware of the potential threat we can ensure we put preventative measures in place.

Apparently even a change of colour scheme isnt enough to defeat my density lol, yes above post was me!......

She too definately indicates this as being the case. I have put effort into empathising as this isnt something im naturally able to do. Just doing that helped me to understand just a fraction of what she must have and still is feeling. I still feel I have more work to do here and and once done a full and whole hearted apology is needed.



Please dont misunderstand my comments. When I refered to not watching tv or going on pc I didnt mean it as if she owed me somthing just because im trying now, god no, she deserves effort as a bare minimum offering. I was merely stating that its been 3 weeks without a single break. Just sleep v. little, work hard and work on M. I am only human and although M will take a lot just to get into R let alone save M, a break once in a while for us to both chill back and just spend a single evening together watching tv etc... was also well needed



Again I dont deny my part in this, and I wasnt trying to demean what I had done. I was directly answering that fact that she believed I had planned everything for OW and she had just 'come along' which is what my wife wants me to do so badly. The fact is OW still had to plan outting and make decisions exactly the same as my W would have done. Anyway irrelevant to this its my turn to take over, man up and make my W happy....




I think im finally starting to understand her EN's now. Its not about what I di its about how I tailor it to be meaningful to her. (sorry if this sounds obvious to you reading this but for me its a breakthrough so be happy).

After the A and the revelation that I had told OW 'I loved her' <cringe> the fact that I had told her that meant nothing. On tuesday just gone, I took her out to where we first exchanged "I love you"'s, this place is very meaningful to us as not only was it the first i love you place but she also came to say goodbye to her loving H she felt she had lost when the alien H (me) took over.

I took her to the exact spot where we had stood, took her hands and looked into her eyes and said what I wanted to tell her, my heart to hers and she gave me a loving cuddle. The first in weeks if not longer. I hope im not overestimating her reaction, but please dont think im getting carried away either. It was a beautiful moment for me and she appeared to feel connected to me even if just for a few moments.

I took a risk taking her to somewhere with such meaning but now hopefully the positive image of that day has gone somewhat to replacing the negative image in her head of saying goodbye to me there.



Thanks for your kind words. I think we are both relieved I made a little progress but am aware thats only bought me a very short amount of time if I dont keep up the workrate.

Thanks again, I will be hoping you post again. You seem to have a very good understanding of where she is and this is vital to me to have contact with people who 'get her' just as important as it is for peolpe to advise me.





[/quote]

Sorry for crashing your thread babe, but I wasnt happy with the way people on here turned on you. This should be a place for users to come and vent, seek/give advice etc...

Yes you wont be everyones cup of tea but your also not here to please everyone. I think because you are outspoken you are an easy target for being singled out, whereas myself being quiet wont be. However does this mean my behaviour is any better?? Im a WH, have made little to no effort for a year and have wished the A would just 'disappear'. But I go about my way quietly.

I would hope people can be understanding that due to the frustration, pain, anguish etc.. you are feeling, plus your natural honest personality this may make you appear a little blunt but you truly have a heart of gold and I love you for that. I have never met ANYONE so happy to offer advice to anyone you feel you can help.

I wont be reading your thread anymore and ill focus on mine, but just know babe, I've got your back..... Love you and the thought of our future together xx

I understand to an extent, I've stopped reading my wifes thread regardless and your right I do have more than enough to be thinking of, on my own for now.



Application filled out and on its way to posting right now. I now do understand the whole working with OW and the incredible insecurities this brings with it.




I dont think recovery is impossible but I am intimidated by the amount of constant work needed. We have a wretchedly busy life and some days there just isnt time or the opportunity to work on M.

Im not condoning the violence or belittling it in importance but my W and I have spoken about the incident and have put in place boundires to prevent it from EVER getting that bad again.



Spoke to Steve last night and have plan of how to taken last failed task plus new task and a bit of preplanning towards the final task. Was a good chat and I'll post details of the chat later when I have more time as now I need to finish planning this weeks agenda to settle my W anxiety.

ok so the Steve chat.

This was our second appointment, well 3rd technically as our first was a double. Anyway Steve spoke to my wife for the first 35mins and then myself for the last 35mins. He first asked how the first task (WHY) had gone. I described my failure but he said that after talking to my W he believes it wasnt as bad as I thought as my actions after till now had backed up what I had told her, therefore validating what I had understood and leant. Great news

Normally Steve coaching has four steps - WHY, WHAT, VALIDATION and PLAN.

He said we wont be doing WHAT as my W and I had already covered that in MUCH detail (too much). Although my W did communicate that she wanted me to think about it and use it as a last chance confession session if I needed to.

So the VALIDATION task was set. Validation is about understanding my W's injury. He used a series of analagies plus personal experiences to describe how she would have viewed the pain caused. He explained that just because I cant empathise with her pain as Ive never suffered emotional trauma myself wasnt the case.

He used an analagy of a doctor. A doctor doesnt need to have suffered every injury his patients have. He can reassure the patient by showing understanding of the pain being suffered in relationship to other injurys, understanding what happened, the method to treat the injury, expected time of recovery and what aftercare will be needed.

He explained that an A is worse than losing a child, war trauma, loss of possessions through fire/hurricane etc... and so on. This is due to the level of intimacy shared between spouses.

Also set preparation for fourth and final stage. Obviously not posting incase of wandering eyes lol

I would love to hear from Johnstwin and gloveoil at this point. I have a week off from work and really want to make it count with my W. She is very deserving and I have been making progress lately.

I would obviously welcome anyone to advise but have singled out about users as they have really seemed to understand my wifes position better than anyone. Their posts have been full of feeling and empathy.

I have learnt that pointless gestures carry no weight but that a heart felt adapted idea goes a long way.

After my last trip to our 'I love you' place, to re-iterate my stance and replace her negative views of this place from where she came by herself to say goodbye to her loving H having been taken over by an alien (me) seem to have been a success but im keen to follow up.

If you need any info to help with ideas im happy and very open to supply.

yllanoitomE,

Remind us again, what are your wife's top 5 ENs, and your top 5 ENs?

Hi, thanks for responding, sorry i've been at work and sleeping lol

right my W EN's are : 1) Affection 2) Conversation 3) Honesty & Openness 4) Sexual Fulfillment 5) Family Commitment

My EN's are : 1) Affection 2) Admiration 3) Honesty & Openness 4) Financial Support 5) Domestic Support

Hope this helps

Hi yllano-

I am so glad that you are using your time off to focus on your W and doing whatever you can to help recover your M.

I have a suggestion that comes from my twin brother, John. (Yep, I really am John's twin). He's a physics professor and a self-described "geek". He's very matter-of-fact and logical. It isn't natural for him to consider the emotional needs of others. Yet, he is very attentive to his wonderful wife. He once told me that he wanted to make her feel like the most beautiful woman in the world and he does. He does this by using his natural strengths as a scientist (observe, collect data, process the data, determine a theory from the data, etc) and he has become the absolute expert in studying and knowing his wife.

He has surprised her with week-end getaways where he arranged for her mom and dad to watch their kids so she wouldn't worry about the kids when they were gone. He has given her things that he knows SHE would like, such as unique tools for the kitchen (she loves to cook) and sewing stuff (she's also a whiz there). He takes her to Jazz Concerts (even though he is a classical and choral music guy).

When her dad had a stroke, he called my mom to come and stay with him and his school aged girls for a couple of weeks-even though he has a hard time having my mom around for extended periods of time. (My mom drives me nuts after a while too...) He did this so that his wife could be with her family and not feel like she had to rush back.

The key thing is, he does these things even though they aren't "natural" to him. He does them to show his W how much he loves her.

Your W wants to know that she is important to you as a woman and as your choice. You see, your A has made her feel like she is "second best" or even a consolation prize. When you take her places, like the first "I love you" spot, you are giving her your attention and your time. That helps her to feel safe again.

I hope this is helpful.

Hang in there-

He sounds like a wonderful man and one I can only hope my efforts will one day help to evolve into.

I just wish my life was simpler lol

Its just chaotic, I need to get better at making time to understand my wife. I dont want to rely on hope but the job I have applied for can go along way to helping as the hours plus the responsibility is alot more balanced.

Im not trying to hide behind excuses I could and should have made time to 'see' my W. Hence the time while im on work holiday. At least thats something out of the equation. Thats only leaves 4 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 1 kitten, 8 puppies, 1 turtle, 26 fish, 2 hamsters, 2-4 school runs a day, washing of a family of 6, clothes washing of a family of 6, washing up etc etc etc...... :roflmao:

Now im only having a laugh but it does get ridiculously busy. My W says just prioritise..... yeah real simple lol just choose from above lol

Thanks for posting JT, I meant what I said about your posts have a real empathy and understanding I can follow

Right its almost 1am here, W is sound asleep but im trying to work on my empathy list.

Im having real issues with something and I know it makes my wife feel like c**p.

During my A I didnt feel any guilt!! I almost got caught a few times but was lucky - or so I thought at the time, although wish now she had caught me and woken me up before going as far as I did

Anyway despite the close calls and all the running around and being secretive etc.. I didnt feel guilt towards my family or my W.

Even after I slept with the OW for the first time, about 6 weeks into A, it didnt go well and I remember after I dropped her off at home, I thought how lucky I was that my W makes such an effort SF wise. Its disgusting, WTF was I thinking? why didnt I wake up, why didnt I feel guilt???

I want to move on but this is really hindering my progress and I know this is a big issue for my wife as well.

Just throwing it out to you all... feel free to land some 2x4's as I deserve it for this

Fresh problem!!

My W just phoned me from work on her break and she told me about a guy from work. Im aware of his admiration for my W, and she has made him and a lot of others at work aware of my A. My W and I regularly go into the store together with the kids.

This morning he asked for her phone number. Instead of putting him in his place she said that she "didnt think it would be a good idea". He then asked about some fields that she walks our dogs in as he likes running and she said "maybe I'll take you after work oneday".

Now fine I'll give her credit for telling me (a boundry) but to me shes just said you cant have my number but feel free to keep trying and Im happy to meet up with you after work without my H????

This might not seem alot to you on here but im going to make you aware of something I havent mentioned before as I wanted my W to recieve help after my A.

When we first met she was dating MK, but he was messing her about and she dumped him and preceeded to see me. We got very close, very fast. However she kept in contact with MK. Everytime we hit a hard patch or I wasnt meeting her EN's she would get MK round, usually while I was working full nights and the kids were inbed. She would always tell me as I think that was her way of controlling herself from going to far. This emotional blackmail continued for about 5 (five) years!! She admitted to kissing him a few times and almost slept with him a couple of times.

She said she kept him around as it made me try harder. I got pissed off and got rid of him, but she caled him back into our lives 3 months later. Eventually she found out he was married and having a huge amount of A's. So now shes totally rid of him and has been for a couple of years I think.

I can see this happening again with this guy from work and howver much in the wrong I am for A if she thinks she is emotionally blackmailing me again she is WRONG. She will get an ultimatum, NO c**p put OM firmly in his place or lose me.

You may think im harsh for this view but I suffered 5 years of going to work wondering what was happening, coming back early wondering what i'd find. Im not doing that again however selfish that makes me.

Only thing in her favour was that she always told me, there appeared to be no secrets. But this fitted in with the blackmail??

What do you guys think?? Am I being out of order here?? After my A so I have ANY right to feel this way or should I just accept it and suffer like I deserve??

NO

Two wrongs dont make a right She is playing games and if not careful that will cause trouble you have enough problems without this kind of complication.

Thank you for your input, I didnt want to blow at her when she walks in so I thought id vent on here and see how you all feel then I can have a calm and calculated conversation based on the responses.

To your earlier question: You shifted your boundaries so that you wouldn't feel guilt; or if you did feel guilt at some level, then you compartmentalized it away, so it wouldn't stand in the way of the emotional satisfaction you were getting from the affair. Either way, what's vastly more important is, Do you feel guilt NOW? THAT's what's important. You say you felt no guilt during your A. Well, I did feel guilt (intermittently) during mine, but so what? I still went & did things I never should've done; my feelings of guilt, such as they were then, didn't really count for much. And anyways, we can't go back & fix any of the feelings or actions we felt or committed during our As, any more than we can turn back the hands of time. Rather, what counts for you is how you feel NOW, and how you let those feelings influence your present conduct.

Re: this new bit about your W. & this fellow from work, how did you come across this info? I'm presuming that she told you about the incident herself. It's hard for me to gauge from afar her motive in doing so; (a) does she think that she responded properly & wanted to share this with you by way of being open/honest? or (b) was this an attempt by her to make you feel some of the jealously/insecurity that she's been dealing with & continues to deal with to a certain extent since you still work with OW? Either way, if your account is accurate, she gets a yellow card for LBs. (And if it's (b), then the referee awards a penalty kick.) But the two of you should discuss it calmly & with empathy toward one another. You should ask her what her motive was in sharing this with you.

I haven't posted on here much, but I've been following along. Yll: Are you trying to say that your W was involved in a 5-year EA with an ex-boyfriend? That's certainly the way it sounds from reading your description of the relationship with MK. If that's the case, it makes me wonder why this not-so-little fact hasn't come up before in your thread or your W's thread.

That's a 5 year PA in my opinion - (kissing and nearly having full SF with the OM).

To me any sexual contact constitutes a PA.

Why did you tolerate such abuse for such a long time?







Didn't you think this information was pertinent to the story of your M?

So, your W had a 5 year A before you had your A? Where is her tremendous anger coming from? Pot/kettle?

I feel for you both but I really feel for your children. I hope SH can help with this mess.

For Steve to do that, of course, he has to be told about it. I take it he hasn't been so far.

I definately feel guilty now, so much so I hate it when shes nice or loving towards me. Trouble is my actions dont back up my words, but as yo uknow im trying, I really am to improve my actions, I dont know how long she can hang on in there though.



She has ALWAYS told me about everything as soon as it happened so I feel safe that her intentions were a). However I am scared it will contiue as she didnt put R (bloke at work) back in his place and I feel he will continue. I just hope that she sees and understands my conterns before I start to pull away from her after all my efforts (however fruitless)

NO IMHO which lets face it is the important one as its effects my future actions etc...

She didnt have 5 years EA. But I do feel she emotionally blackmailed me by keeping MK around. Always looking over my shoulder in a sense.

Thats why with R im scared, I dont believe for a second she is capable of having an A with him, but im scared she'll keep mentioning his antics knowing it will anger me and potently in her eyes I'll try harder. The difference this time is that I am actually trying opposed to MK situation. So this time I will be a lot less tolerant.

I purposely didnt mention this situation as it was 3-4 years ago (re-evaluated timeline) and she has grown so much since as a person and has beeb perfect since.

After my A I wanted us to recieve help on fixing our marriage from the issues my character flaws had caused. By mentioning this people would have focused to much on the past and not on the present. I dont believe her actions led to my A and I have OWNED that.

I would have mentioned it as part of our R but we arent there yet as im not NC with OW, and I still have a truck load of improvements in my current behaviour before I consider R an option.

No we havent yet, but I know my wife wants to, but we only have 30mins sessions each and steves coaching takes the vast majority of that. It is on her agenda as was her mentioning it here when the time was appropriate.

So as an overview -

1) I dont consider W had EA/PA
2) She did however emotionally blackmail me to get response
3) I dont feel comfortable with the way my W has dealt with R today.

Well, you have wasted the valuable time of several dedicated board members by withholding critical information about your marriage. It's like going to a doctor for bronchitis but not telling him you had lung cancer 3 years ago. He can't accurately assess your overall health if he doesn't know the whole story along with your history.

I realize you didn't withhold this out of malice, but you should try and be a little more considerate of posters like SugarCane and writer who made an emotional investment in your situation based on an incorrect story. They don't deserve to be slammed for their frustration. They both deserve an apology, not a slam in the face. SC was so personally invested in your situation that she emailed me privately on your behalf. And this is the thanks she gets?

She might not be back,[I wouldn't post to you if you did that to me] but at the very least she deserves an apology and a thank you.

I apologise for posting about your situation on another thread. I did not think of how inappropriate and hurtful this would be before I did this. I will delete my posts from that thread as soon as I can; I'm having trouble at the moment.

Mel, thank you, but I do feel I should apologise for the way I posted about this couple. I will stay off their threads, which I think is best really, since they are working with Steve. They should not receive well meaning, but non-professional and sometimes conflicting advice from us while they are paying for expertise.

ML, Thank you for posting,

No the information was not withheld because of malice, it was withheld so the current desperate situation could be analysed and advised upon.

This forum is the first I've ever been on and the counciling I've had in the uk has been useless so when I came on here I didnt know what to expect. Her actions from 3-4 years ago are anything but fresh in my mind, so the need to mention them didnt come up.

The fact that I had an A has nothing to do with her actions way back then. The current situation her is so delicate and needs instant work and progress and that is what bought me to you guys.

If I had of mentioned her past, advice from you guys might not have been as helpful as you r respsonses may have been lessened. "Well emo you did this because she hurt you" etc...

Yes your right maybe we should have bared all upfront but it didnt seem like an issue of urgency compared to our current problems. The only reason I bought it up yesterday was due to my concerns over R. I didnt handle it well and should have spoken to W first before disclosing such personal comment on here.

We both come here everyday because we both value the advice given, SC keeps refering to herself as amateur - my take - I would sooner employ someone who has work experience than someone whos finished university with all the qualifications in the world but actually knows NOTHING about the job. Obviously im not refering the steve with this analagy but the fact that I do value SC's input.

Im not going to apologise for my outburst on another thread as that was uncalled for fine flame on my thread but not elesewhere. We came here for help and by doing that all that will happen is people with NO intention of helping will come to see the freak show!!

I will however reiterate my stance towards SC. I wish you to continue to monitor my situation. I want your honest feedback and advice. I do value your input and your knowledge. Im sorry that this has got out of hand.

I only hope that this calms down as I dont want the last 4 weeks to be a waste of time as now my W is being flamed by everyone here the advice seems to have stopped and now shes feeling really low that this site (which she considered her refuge/sactuary) is not going to be willing to help. If this is the case my M is lost

Please try to see things from my perspective, we just want to help to save our 10 year M. Can you continue to offer that here??

Thank you, I may have made a bad decision in your eyes but it doesnt mean I deserve to become the MB circus freak for all to stare at.



We may be paying for the expertise but thats directly focused on us moving forward, the coaching is specifically aimed at eliminating certain thoughts to allow the right frame of mind to save M.

Steve doesnt sit there for hours and breakdown or analyse our situation, he only has a rough timeline from us both but thats all he seems to want.

The advice and help given here at MB and from YOURSELF SC is valued by myself and my W. We are not trying to alienate you and im sorry you feel you need to back away. Other than getting angry due to your posting elsewhere I dont feel i've mistreated you??

I wish you to stay around my thread, you helped me alot in my early days here with the 2x4's

I value all advice given and yes, I may have made a bad choice to withhold infomation and im sorry for that, but dont give up on me for that.

Hope to speak to you soon

Emotionally, I don't think you need to worry about SC anymore, she probably won't be back. There are about 8-10 posters experienced in MB principles who are actively donating their time to about 60-100 posters in need, SC was one of the best. [I counted 61 posters needing help just on the 1st 3 pages of this forum alone] This is their free time that they DONATE. They don't have to do it. We all have full lives with careers and families. Personally, if I am trying to help someone and feel like my contributions are not valued by that poster, or that he is not honest or is contrary, then I make better use of my time by moving on to something else.

AT WHAT POINT HAVE I MADE HER FEEL HER CONTRIBUTIONS ARE NOT VALUED???

I JUST OBJECTED TO HER FLAMING ME ON A RANDOM THREAD??

DONT SEE YOUR POINT HERE SORRY??

Emotionally, she is gone, there is nothing to debate. You objected to her posts on another thread, she removed them. What more do you want?

Well we're not discussing music here, things are going to get heated/emotional/difficult etc.. if she is done just because I got angry for her actions then im really gutted to have lost an experienced member. If me getting angry is going to alienate people it makes me wonder how ANYONE gets help around here especially the WS??

I dont want ANYTHING else ML thats issue sorted?? why are you making this out to be such a big thing? I didnt think she acted fairly and she has removed posts. no problem?? why the overreation and backlash???

If you want anyone to help you on this forum, you might want to lose the hostile attitude. Good luck on attracting help with an attitude like that. You have alienated ME with your posts, friend.

You don't seem to understand that we are all posters just like you. We donate our time here FREELY and most are not going to waste it on someone who is hostile, nasty and critical. You are not entitled to help that is freely DONATED by fellow posters.

Im at a loss here, im getting frustrated as to why you are being hostile towards my treatment of SC?? I expressed anger at the discussion of my thread, away from my thread. Thats all, but your making out like I publicly anhiliated her, riped her to shreads, s**t on her advice and spat her out???

When? How??

Im not a hostile person but your persecuting me for something I havent done??

Can you really not understand this??

In fact please gloss over my thread, you'll find I thanked her for all advice?? and the same goes for you???

Is this post really an attack on SC personally??

I have been grateful for all advice recieved here because I do understand that you all have your own lives. I even expressed to my W how do you have the time to be here everyday, but thats whats wonderful about the vets here, they care and wish to use their own painful experiences to help others. This is truly commendable and I for one am truly grateful for all the support and dont wish to lose anyone

Okay, y,

I'm going to sit on Mel for a moment. She is being very supportive of me, but she is defending me when I do not deserve it.

I feel very embarrassed that TWO threads on this board, neither of which is mine, have become about me! This should stop now (please).

An apology is not an apology when it is qualified by "but". So without saying "but", I do just want to point out yllan that I did not write about you on the other thread to spread the news and invite others to see the freak show. I thought that since your thread was on a public board it was fair game to refer to it. I limited what I said to pointing out that the information had only just been given, which I think you must agree is factually correct. I did not "talk about you" ( and Bh) or talk about your issues beyond that.

Even so, I readily admit that I posted out of anger, without thinking about whether it was right to post in the place that I did. I was somewhat shocked to read about Bh's past, and I felt strongly that it should have been revealed, as it is part of the picture of your whole marriage. We do ask for as much of the picture as we can get here. If people do not volunteer the details, we always ask whether there are children, how long married, and usually, what the marriage was like up until the "just found out" affair. If we find out that there has been a previous affair (by the same WS), that sometimes leads to the conclusion that affairs are a way of life for the WS, and the recent affair is not an aberration of character.

None of the above happened in your case, yllan; I am just pointing out that most people here feel that the whole marriage should be looked at, as it is relevant. Obviously, there might be too much detail in a long marriage to look at it all. It is a case of sifting through for the right details.

I have not put much time into your thread at all, but I did in the early stages of your wife's. I usually recognise my limitations, and I am limited in the advice I have been able to offer to you ( a man, and the WS). You have had much wiser posters here, including tst and TogetherAlone (and there are others), and I have been more comfortable on your wife's thread. My angry post to the new thread was an instinctive response to the fact that I had given a lot of time to writing to her, only to find that I had been misinformed.

("Misinformed" might not be how you see it, but it is how I see it.)

I don't intend to boycott your thread in pique, but as I have already said, I try to recognise my own limitations. I have not been walking you step-by-step through this crisis, as you so flatteringly imply! I will continue to drop in if I see a place where I can be of help. If you don't mind my saying what I think is best, I think you should ask for direction from Steve - make an list of questions to ask about each week - and come here for support, but less so for direction. That is just my advice, and I have never coached with MB, so it is not even equivalent to work experience! It is merely armchair analysis.

I appreciate you taking time to post SC.

I will agree with your overall analysis of the situation and definately would welcome any future posts by yourself. I appreciate that your not in my position (a man or a WS) but of course you have worked with a WS and that is why I still feel you have alot to offer me in my journey and am glad you'll be checking in.

You are right and I have given my reasons above whether right or wrong. I had to make a choice - how could I recieve help and advice that would help us most in our current situation. I felt if I had mentioned W actions from 4+ years ago to much time may be spent judging her actions rather tahn focusing on mine. I didnt want to hear things like - well BH whats your problem with Emo, you done it to him first etc etc...

Whether or not she did what she did, that was a long time ago and we had had some good years since and she has shown no signs of anything but utter transparency since. Having said that I do understand you would want the whole picture to help with advice.

I whole heartedily apologise for my role in this situation and definately dont want to alienate members here - not for my selfish needs but I truly appreciate all the time you've spent of your time on my M and value you all as giving people x

Hope theres no hard feelings and we can settle to some form of normality.

I hope ML comes back soon we didnt get on well this morning and I tried to explain but still feel bad.

Here's hoping

Just a thought but does anyone believe my A was in any way influenced but W actions?? I've never linked then and to be honest still dont and probably dont want to as I need to fully own my actions and not drag her in.


You are all much better equiped to answer that??

Part of taking full responsibility is removing "excuses". So I think it's a good idea that you continue focusing on rehabilitating from your actions, without referencing her behavior as perhaps on some level subconsciously giving you license.

I won't talk about your wife's situation on your thread, because my belief is that it's a distraction from your behavior and your recovery from that behavior.

So - in a nutshell, I'm seeing progress and potential for recovery if you are walking the talk you're demonstrating here. Blameshifting is very destructive to marital recovery and I don't see you doing that at all.

Thank you KA, I agree with everything you've said. My W and I arent reading each others threads at all, and so they should be dealt with seperately. Its been difficult considering since things kicked off last night i've wanted to protect her, but ive stuck to my thread and resolving my views of view. I know shes feeling really down from talking to her but ive left her to deal with her thread no matter how bad I feel.

I dont blame her at all for the A - thats a fact and I definately dont treat her as if I do. I dont refer to anything from the past either as this it is important that I grow as an individual from this mess (A). Even if it takes time.

Yll: I think there is a fine line between blaming the BS for the A and looking closely at some of the problems in the M that led to your being open to an A. I admire the fact that you want to completely own your A and your actions. However, A's do not occur in a vacuum. I would venture to say that very few content, happily-married people enter into A's. I'm sure it happens, but I think it happens more in serial adulterers because of some character flaw in that type of WS. For the most part, an A occurs because some need of the WS isn't being met in the M.

When I first had my A, I was shocked when our MC (and my H too) suggested that my A might have something to do with my H's past EA. I really had never made that sort of connection, and I denied that my H's EA might have had something to do with my actions for a long time. I was over that, after all. That was all in the past. What I didn't realize is that my H and I never truly took the steps necessary to R our M after his very long-term EA finally came to an end. We just sort of swept it under the rug and tried to go on as though none of those 10 years mattered anymore. The problem is, we went on in different directions. Instead of moving closer together and really working on the problems in our M, we drifted further apart. That left me open to my A in a big way, because I had lost that emotional connection with my H.

Does that mean I blame him for my A? Absolutely not. I was in no way justified in what I did. It was wrong. I own that completely. But, it did help both of us in our R to realize where the emotional distance in our M came from so that we could work on it together. IMO, for a M to truly R, it is necessary at some point to look at all of the factors that led up to the A and which EN's were not being met in the M. I think this is an important step so that another A doesn't happen again in the future because the root of the problem was never addressed in the first place.

Maybe you really are certain that your A had nothing to do with your W's actions in the past. I was absolutely certain that mine had nothing to do with my H's. But, what did you and BH do to recover your M after she stopped all contact with the OM? Did you get counseling? Did you read any of the Harley's books (or other books, since I'm assuming you didn't know about this site then)? Did you actually go through the process of R your M? What steps were taken to R your marriage after your W's EA? And, if no steps were taken, how can you be completely sure that her past actions have had no affect whatsoever on you or your M?

I will pay MEGA $$$ for a picture of that!!!!!


Not2fun

lol hi ML are we in any way ok?

Emotionally, of course we are ok. I wish you and your W the very best.

Can we still chat? can I call on your sound advice?? or are you just being pleasant??

Be scared, Mel. I have yet to be honest on here about the size of my butt...

Quite frightening.

You ain't seen my Texas pistola, Madam!

Ok ladies ladies ladies, as lovely as you all are im sure, I do need to sleep tonight so please refrain from anymore graphic details lol jk

(handing emo my brillo pad stock so he can scrub out his mental eye)

sounds painful but arrrggghhhhh sooo necessary

I agree with this statement and im my case it wasnt because of W EB (emotional blackmail) 4 years ago but certainly we were not happy in the 6 months before the A. However childish my issues were they still got me down and my lack of serious boundries; well any boudries actually; enabled A to happen.



We definately didnt deal with MK leaving we just accepted that he did, well actually I was very relieved to be honest as I hated his guts as you can imagine. I didnt want to hate W so he was the target. Also his 'departure' from our lives was a big scene itself, as she played him borke into his msn account and found out his real story. She became good friends with a girl who was sooo loved up with MK, believed they were ment to be together etc... but then my W found out he was married. This made MK ex GF and my W get even closer as the BWomen. This masked the fact that he had left our lives and this time hopefully for good.



I do believe we both have a lot of work to do on ourselves and on our M. I still feel I need to progress first and quickest to give my W security of the future as it was my actions that shattered her world and broke her heart. After she is comfortable that im here to stay and I can meet her needs during R we can discuss necessary changes needed to avoid LB's.


[/quote]Maybe you really are certain that your A had nothing to do with your W's actions in the past. I was absolutely certain that mine had nothing to do with my H's. But, what did you and BH do to recover your M after she stopped all contact with the OM? Did you get counseling? Did you read any of the Harley's books (or other books, since I'm assuming you didn't know about this site then)? Did you actually go through the process of R your M? What steps were taken to R your marriage after your W's EA? And, if no steps were taken, how can you be completely sure that her past actions have had no affect whatsoever on you or your M? [/quote]

Guess I've answered this above. We didnt do anything after MK left just got on with life. W became friends with MK ex GF which I guess looking back was another tie to MK even if not actually with him.

I have a huge amount of soul searching and personal improvements to make, im making small ones already that even W is acknowledging but its all too slow, too little and too late. If these improvements were made inside our M they would have been great but at the moment we arent inside M but a dark place post A.

The amount of work is intimidating and the fact I cant seem to pull off anything im trying at the moment is proving really tough, but im proud of my new found mental strength to get up EVERYDAY and keep plugging away. In the past i've been a runner (i.e. I cant do what you want or make you happy so I better leave so you can find someone that'll make you happy as you deserve to be.)

I know that effort alone wont get me anything but a D but im sticking with my new found determination that I will maage to turn things around.

Thanks for posting back Writer1, great to have your input

Your w and yourself seem to be ,as I once was ,unaware of the danger of a relationship with a member of the opposite sex which starts as a friendship but becomes too close for comfort without necessarily becoming sexual.

Do you understand the difference between an A and an EA ?

Yes I do, My issue is with boundries and my W is with dealing with my mistreatment of her over the years we've been mnarried.

Also I think a large part of my issue is that I have VERY low self esteem and therefore seek a lot of Admiration. My wife isnt able to fulfill this EN as we've been married for 10 years and we are in the taking for granted mode. Hence without any boundries its very easy for me to feel close to someone that notices how much I do at home, how hard I work etc....

This is why it is critical for me to implement concrete boundries immediately and im doing this with Steves advice. I am making a list of boundries and will run them past steve next time we talk.

Also I dont believe my W has ANY issues with being just friends with a man, She doesnt particularly get on with women and has always got on better with males. All of her best friends have been male and theres been no issues in 28 years. She knew exactly what she was doing with MK because she had tried EVERYTHING else to reach me over the years except leave me. She tried to use MK to prevoke a response and because sometimes it worked she found it hard not to keep doing it when I was being a selfish a******e. Im not defending her but you can see that im still with her therefore understand on some level what she did and why.

Right I need to get back on track with my M.

My week off has not gone to plan, in fact added to stress. W is starting to see continuing pointless and has issued a D day of January to see progress and effort.

I knew this week would be hard as the expectation was huge. I misunderstood the theme for the week and so my plan was useless and failed day by painful day.

The few things that could still have gone well were ruined by my lack of effort to manage down to the smallest detail. Therefore leaving to much opportunity for things to fail, which they did.

We have even more on our plate as now the job application has fallen through - This is devestating as this was to ensure NC and has absolutely shattered my W's hope for the future. I will contact the company as im over qualified for the position and was recommended by a current employee. I did have one bout of sickness after a vascectomy but that was a one off explained absense so dont know why they wouldnt even interview me???

So job hunting very high on my agenda as I can move the world for my W but if still working with OW its kind of fruitless.

Just when we thought our life couldnt get anymore unstable - a new low

We have an appointment with Steve for monday so looking forward to that.

Havent continued to read SAA for weeks now, I wish too but want to do so with my W who currently doesnt have any interest. I may well continue to read in my own time as I need to see if theres anything that could help me as some of the book has helped me already.

edit: have spoken to company re:job application. Very imformative chat with HR manager. Apparently no positions but upon speaking to me and being impressed he did let it slip that someone on my patch is leaving and he will keep me on file. I hope this is a good sign, as a manager he shouldn't have told me that info unless he intended to help me. Fingers crossed, anyway not eggs in one basket this time, been job hunting all morning and found some other possiblities - although hours not as good they are still options. Will keep updated

YUP! YUP! YUP! BS Triggers EVERYDAY knowing you risk seeing OW as much or more than you see your own wife.......


Mark the spot that your wife left off and continue on your own! You can go back and read together anytime she is ready and willing. Won't kill you to re-read with her. I've read and re-read each of Dr. H's books about a dozen times, gleaning new info each time.

Get on it! And get your eyes focused forward!

Definately I've wanted to for weeks now. Guess that was a pretty obvious solution, enough said




[/quote]

Mornin'

Keen to hear your update???

Hey Emotionally(backwards)

I hear you packed your bags and were ready to go last night.

I thought you were willing to do whatever it would take for as long as it would take??

Whats up with this??

BS not willing to suck it up and just get over it fast enough for you or what??

***** Sorry post removed *****

Welcome back yll,

I have to say that reading this thread of yours and also that of your wife, something seems amiss.

What you write on MB doesn't paint the picture of you as a person and H that is painted by your W on her thread.

Who is the real yll? Who is the real BH?

Which version of your behaviour this last week is correct? I completely understand that each of us has our own perspective on events, but reading recently, it is like reading about two different H's in two different M's.

I'll post again soon but I'll hold my hands up, I posted while frustrated and the above post wasnt a fair account or reflection of events.

I apologise and Ill re-address later

Sorry to waste your time, stick with BH thread

Get a dog.

Emo...

Want esteem? BE estimable.

Want respect? CONDUCT yourself respectably.

Want admiration? ACT admirably.

Spend less time searching cyberspace for examples & role models; BE the example you seek.

I'm not sure why you are apologizing. Most situations involving 2 people do have different viewpoints. You are not your wife and she is not you. We all know that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.....

Keep doing EXACTLY what Steve tells you to do. Do not veer from that course, NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!

And since I saw that post prior to your deleting of it, I again want to urge you NOT TO ATTEND that party. I would tell BH that you love her so much that you will not be a party to that self-destruction of herself. It would be no different than you taking an alcholic to a bar......Also, if I was YOU, I would get a hold of Steve ASAP (remember, he ORDERED you to do this....) and let him know again that BH is hell-bent on attending this party and what would be the right thing for you to do.....

And if you do decide to take a stand on this issue, prepare now for her anger....ask Steve how you should respond to that.....

not2fun

Im apologising because I posted while feeling very frustrated and therefore it didnt just misrepresent the situation but even contradicted the few things I've learnt on this site.

Of course there are 2 sides to every story, absolutely, but the post in question didnt actually cover either mine or my W it was THAT distorted.

Yes after talking to Steve I am clear that NO deviations can occur for maximum chance of recovery. He has told us to email him instantly should any issues arise from either side and he will advise from there. He has also explained the whole plan to me now, so I can see something tangeable.

To be honest im not going to discuss the party any longer, its just not going to help my W or I to spend anymore time on this subject. Steve is very much aware regarding the party, from both my W and my individual consultations. He will deal with it how hes sees fit.

Im going to take a break from MB to concentrate on the tasks Steve has set me, also currently im not at a place personally where im able to reach out for help here, so I will stick with Steve for now. Thanks for everything so far though I have definately learnt a lot from MB.

See you soon

ok, im back in need of advice if anyone can pend a few minutes with me.

We're at a stage where OW appears to have taken a back seat (phew!!)- which is obviously great, but now that means all anger and sadness is aimed at yours truly. This is better for us and our recovery IF I was able to handle it appropriately and reasure my W when she needs it.

So heres the issue, communication is without a doubt my weakest side, always has been, still is, but doesnt have to stay that way, however that takes time and probably hard work with Steve, however time is a precious commodity that I dont possess.

My W believes in reassurance she is asking for something really simple and in theory it probably is, but however retarded this may sound I just dont get it. My view of reassurance is that I love her, I want to be with her, We've grown up and shared so much together, we're been so strong through trials in the past and always come out stronger, we madeplan for OUR future and I wantt to experience them with her and so on.

This isnt even touching the side, last night I think we were both close to tears, both due to frustration, both for same reason (me not getting it), but on opposing sides of the fence.....

She says that these examples are to vague and that they need more details to be meaningful and reassuring. I dont 'carry' thoughts around with me and so have to 'task' out answers which drives her mad as she wants me to have answers in my mind and ready to go and if I must sit down and treat it like a task it again defeats the object of being reassuring as its not natural.

I feel so frustrated as I cant win, I dont have these thoughts readily available, Im so backward in the way I think, but refuse to believe that I cant be helped hence why Im refusing to walk despite the feeling that we are both suffering to much to continue. We are really down to our basics now, we'e running on fumes, we need a boost to lift our spirits. Nothing not even life around us is going well this marital issue is controlling our world.

There isnt a minute of the day which isnt in some way affected by the A. Its suffocating and its effecting our house, financial situaiton, kids, work (both), sleep, time spent together - literally EVERYTHING, there isnt a minute of resbite to enjoy each others company.

I know she desperately wants this to be put to bed so life can be put back into a controlled manner again, where everyone benefits but understandably so she not in a place to do that right now.

Ive always been live in the moment, happy go lucky but for the first time in my life im starting to have worrying thoughts - they're controllable just scary.

I guess this is a giant cry for help. I want to change who I am but im like a baby, I dont get things unless they are spoon fed to me. I dont believe for a second I dont care - I just dont think normally or get anything emotional so appears I dont give a damn.

Arrrghhh what a desperate situation ..........

AM I A LOST CAUSE?? AM I RIGHT TO KEEP TRYING DESPITE CONTINUING TO HURT MY WIFE. I WANT TO CHANGE BUT SEEING WHAT IM REDUCING HER TOO ON A DAILLY BASIS IS KILLING ME :'(

I think you're making this too complicated. She wants honesty, conversation, and compassion.

Get yourself a talking stick. Do you know what that is? It's an object - could be a pencil, a feather, a stuffed giraffe, whatever the two of you agree on - that both of you recognize as the 'giver' of the right to talk. When one person holds it, the other doesn't speak. Teaches respect and also listening, which we all need.

Choose one time a week where the two of you will be alone. This will be the time that you talk about your marriage and the effects of the affair. You will take turns talking, the other will listen, you will be honest, you will seek solutions.

And, when the hour is over, you go back to your life. No relationship talk. Save it for the talking stick time. But each time you have a talk, you feel refreshed, respected, loved, and hopeful.

Thank you for taking time to reply.

I'll be honest I do have issues with your suggestion and heres why:

Our chats arent convenient, as you've read from her own thread she has no patience. Everyday I read her thread and LOVE the advice being given but absolutely NONE of it is taken on board or practiced. Im not here to 'put down' my wife as she will read this and think im playing games again but I have to be honest. I would love it if she was able to follow any advice she was given from MB but its just not her. I know for a fact she WANTS to but just cant.

Our chats typically happen between 12-6am as thats when shes feeling tired and low - this decends into huge arguments. Then the next day becomes useless as we both to tired to function, I cant complete any tasks I had set myself, do housework, spend time with kids, go to work and focus on job etc etc.. she has had to call in sick last 2 days because by 5am when she was due to wake up for work she hadnt even got 1 min of sleep.

So as much as I like the idea of the controlled convosations theres absolutely no hope of this happening. Sorry

Then there is my part to play in this. Even if we did manage a controlled converstaion my issue is not being able to participate in it at an acceptable level for my W. Im to mentally challenged and shes very deep and analytical (opposites) so just about every convo we have end up in disaster, anger, frustration, threats, ultimatums etc.... And I can understand why which is why im asking for help with my skills so I can at least meet her half way and buy us time by being able to reassure her.

p.s. Just another thought - When things are good better us im so much more naturally loving and reassuring towards her in actions but when things are tough and shes expecting and arguing with me I cant function (sounds drastic but please take this at face value as it accurate).

Is this because I cant understand her pain??

Is it because im intimidated by her verbally aggresive nature?

Is it because im only happy when life is good for me??

Thanks

I am sure you can find a time once a WEEK to talk outside of 12-6AM. If you can not, you need to look at your priorities. Take responsibility for fixing problems you see, and think outside of the box. You can do this.

Wow. Where do I start?

First, as you are the WH, it isn't your position to determine whether she enacts any advice at all. It's your position to HOPE that she will continue to work on the marriage at all. She probably 'can't' use it right now because she is too raw. Some people heal in a month; some in five years. It's not your place to determine when she is ready to look at things.

Second, why on earth would you have a serious discussion after midnight? Unless you both work night shift, your biorhythmn is running on empty by that point. Are you willing to take yourself out of your comfort zone and LOOK for another time, or are you just ready to quit?

Third, for someone who says he wants to save his marriage, this is about the silliest thing I've ever read:
Are you going to fight for the marriage, or aren't you? If so, quit making excuses.

Fourth, I WAS offering you help with your skills. I was trying to make it as simple as it can possibly be. ONE RULE: whoever holds the stick, talks, while the other listens. If she has a question, she holds the stick, asks you, and hands you the stick; you answer the question. If you don't have a question or comment for her, you hand her back the stick. Rinse and repeat, until the hour is over. If it's too hard for you, start out with HALF an hour. If communication is such a hard thing for you two, THIS is how therapists fix it.

If you want to get a little more complicated than that, the followup step to the talking stick is that, when you say what you want to say, she is supposed to repeat back to you what SHE heard you say, to see if she understood it correctly. If not, you take the stick back and explain it better. Rinse and repeat.

The talking stick is a CONTROL. If you honor its premise - and if you can't even honor that much in your marriage, you might as well just give up - that you will respect each other long enough to say a simple sentence, then you CAN start learning how to communicate without all the drama. It's a false control, to replace the one the two of you never learned. But it's a very real reminder in the room that you two have a goal.


My belief is that, when things are tough, you are in survival mode and you reach back into your childhood and pull out whatever methods worked for you back then to avoid pain, punishment, anger, judgment, or disappointment. You use childhood methods to push her away and protect yourself. Now, that could be a case of low self esteem, it could just be bad methods learned, could be toxic shame...only you would know. But it is a defense mechanism to avoid pain. We all do it. It is human nature. The difference is in how we learned to do it. In a healthy shame way, or a toxic shame way. Productive, or destructive.

If you can step outside yourself, be honest with yourself, yet know that we are all precious beings in God's eye (therefore not worth throwing away), you can judge yourself, and still find room for improvement.

Do you know what the key component of MB is? It is that we cannot change others, we can only change ourselves. And we should strive to change ourselves, for the better. Only when we realize that, do we become loveable. Because we stop thinking about what our spouse can do FOR us, but what we can do for them. The magic is that, once we reach that level, the other person becomes so happy, that THEY want to make US happy. Then the circle is complete.

Dear WS

I am writing to you on the public board because I feel this is the last chance I have to reach out to you remind you of where I am and tell you how I feel, I am hoping that by doing this on your thread and in writing you will not be able to ignore, forget about or simply dicard my feelings. I am putting my heart on the line here as it�s the only thing left for me to do and I hope that you can see that I am genuine and consider this a last resort in a final attempt to have a fair and decent marriage.

So Dear WS I want you to know that I love you and that I am sorry. I am sorry for all the ways I have reacted to this situation, I am sorry I am not calmer, I am sorry im not stronger to get through this on my own without your help. I want you I want our family and most of all I want our marriage, but I don�t want to achieve this on my own I haven�t got anything else to give you a part from my love and support. I am sorry I can t get through this without reassurances or constant demands I just don�t know how else to feel your love a part from push you as hard as I can and watch you take it. It feels like this is the only way you can show me that you love me these days by just simply staying and putting up with me, during the past year you have not shown me any care or love that I understand I know you say you love me sometimes but its got to the stage where its only words and words don�t have much value when your actions are contradicting what you say.

I am heartbroken I am lost and I am in pain but despite all of this I still sit here and worry about you and worry about how your mistake has effected you, I cant take your mistake away all I can do is support you though the recovery, but I cant keep on giving away my soul and not get anything in return, I don�t want much from you a part from the love you promised to have for me when we got married and to back up this love in action.

I am still thinking about what you said yesterday that you have always been this cad capable of hurting me and you reminded me of the incident when you stayed on the bus past your stop just because a woman was making eye contact with you and you wanted to see if it would lead anywhere. Then came home and told me about it, oh how stupid do I feel now for not getting angry at you for being so understanding that you have low self esteem and no matter what I say or do my love for you does not help that one bit and you need a strangers approval but you also had boundries. You reminded me of this incident you reminded me that I am holding on to a man in my imagination that you have never been the sweet man that I married. Im telling you I refuse to believe that, I refuse to think that the man I fell in love with has always been this cold and uncaring I remember the times when you used to hurt just at the thought of being away from me for an evening and the way you used to just look at me from across the room with so much love in your eyes that�s what I remember about you, I remember the guy who used to swear blind that he will never be with another woman when I used to panic about you having a mid life chrisis and the realisation that you have only had one partner all your life would drive you to cheat, the anger and disgust in your face used to be so reassuring now its gone now there is no reassurance there and there is no trust. And im so sad that you cant see that, im so sad that you don�t see there is any further need to reassure me a part from the fact that you are still here.

I want you to be here out of love, the last thing I want is for you to be unhappy and stay for any other reasons like fear or because you don�t see any other choice, I wish you can see that I want what s best for you even if that�s not me. I worry about you I worry about your happiness and you know I put your happiness above mine but its now got to a stage where I cant see that I am making you happy and I don�t know how to make you happy without further sacrificing myself.

You know I don�t think much of myself, you know I don�t feel like I deserve you and you know that I don�t feel that I deserve love or care but right now I also realise that as a human being I do deserve not to be in torturous pain, I don�t deserve to feel hated rejected or like a burden. I rather have nothing than have that.

I am exhausted I am shattered and I am just plain out of energy to fight with you anymore hun, I cant keep fighting for a marriage on my own. I love you enough to have faith that you will wake up and want me and our marriage but I don�t have enough strength to fight for it. I have worked so hard day and night to help you to counsel you and just be there for you but now I need you, I need you to help me.
Please help me, reassure me, care for me I am begging you. I need you and I can t do this on my own.

I have spent all night talking to you about what I need its not much, it�s a little reassurance from time to time that I can let my guard down that I can relax with you again and be happy and carefree that you have the situation under control that you understand, that you care enough about yourself not to put up with the self distructive weaknesses that led to the affair.

I cant carry the shame on my own anymore, I need communication to clarify things because my world is no longer as straight forward as it was a simple cuddle is no longer so simple, it can mean a million things from I love you to im sad to I want SF. I cant tell anymore what s real from what s not I need you to share your thoughts in order to help me understand. I can t tell anymore whats you and whats the alien that has taken over you. I need your help with that I need you to drown my insecurities with simple reassurances like cuddling me and simply stating �im soppy� nothing more.

I want my children to grow up knowing that you are a stand up guy, that yes you can make mistakes like everyone else but you also can redeem yourself and work at clearing the aftermath of your mess. I want them to admire you and respect you, I want to admire and respect you again, I don�t like looking at you and seeing the stranger you are becoming to me. It hurts it really does especially when I know what a loving respectful hard working guy you can be.

Do you remember how you felt during that heavenly period of 6 months a year before the A when you where everything I needed and more, how happy I was, how happy you where? How proud you felt that you were there for your family and you were there for your wife? Do you remember the pure glow of joy I had just because you remembered to get me a birthday present or an anniversary card? We can be back there again but you need to help us get there.

Don�t get bogged down with thinking that we will never admire you again because that s not the case we will admire you so much when you decide to love us, we will love you back twice as much when you decide that you want us and you know that, I have shown you that. Every time you have shown me an act of kindness or care I cant help but want to repay you 10 times over and that�s just because I am grateful to have you in my life I am grateful that you let me love you, I never want to take you for granted.

I don�t know what else to say a part form I do love you and I do want you I just don�t know how to carry on loving you when its costing me so much. Its like investing into something and not getting any returns. I need you to make the simple decision to commit to our marriage and family and start giving something back or accept that you are not and wont and just go and find the happiness that we don�t seem to be able to give you. Don�t tell me you don�t know how because you have the resources and help to find out and as you know you have my full love and support. Don�t tell me your not capable because you are, you have shown me many times that you are capable of feeling caring and understanding. Don�t sell yourself short you can do this if you put your mind to it and im here to remind you of what you can be always and forever.

Do you really want to be here? Have you really decided that the family we have is enough for you? Because I don�t feel that. I still feel like you are here out of duty and I simply refuse to be a burden on you, you deserve to have a better life, its just now up to you to decide if you can achieve this with us or not. I wish that one day our admiration and love will be enough for you that you wont be in a position to seek it in other people and place. Do you think we can ever be enough for you? If you do decide that we are what you want then please act on that decision and commit to us. This problem will not disappear on its own. I wish I could save you the hard work but I cant its just the way it is.

The decision is now with you. Its out of my hands I cant do anymore without your commitment can you meet me half way? Im not asking you to do all the hard work but im asking you to start meeting me half way because I cant walk this journey on my own.

Love you now and always

W xx

If my FWH wrote what you wrote...about doing what you felt like, I would file for divorce today. See, he was able to have his affairs because he reacted to his feelings instead of acting to his beliefs.

You're still there...which puts your marriage at risk, moment to moment. Because your reactions are what you're still choosing instead of switching to Actions.

I found the key was to Act, not React. Which meant, I acted and my feelings followed. I reversed the course of my life. You might be too late in doing this...was the key to break my wayward mindset.

Another key component was to stop all DJs...and I did this by listening to myself, to my myriad of justifications. I found out my habit of justifying my choices was how I lied to myself. It's what created and fed my resentment, built it into entitlement...and was deeply disrespectful.

Your BW has patience to a point. She may have run out of patience by now...when we continue to lead our lives, make our choices, in reaction to how we feel, it happens. Does more damage and stops healing. Thwarts it...a big LB in our marriage.

Same to DJ...because to define your partner is to not look at yourself. You can state, "I wish my BW acted less impatient with me." That's yours and it's real. Rather than "My BW has no patience." One is a blatant lie, btw...for a BW who chooses to recover the marriage after infidelity, instead of leave it, has tremendous strength, commitment and patience.

The lie can serve to justify your actions...so see the lie in that. You choose your actions...there is no justifications anymore.

Cat's talking stick is important to build listening skills. A big part of our recovery was doing communication exercises...and it took us making them a very high priority...we did them twice a week, took one half hour each time...had set boundaries around the exercise, how we conducted them, and we developed communication skills which serve us even today. Definitely necessary, IMO.

Before we began them, I'd already committed myself to stop DJ'ing...which included holding myself back from focusing on my WH and refocusing on me...my actions, my stuff...because part of the reason I went wayward in the first place was focusing where I had no control, a constant act of disrespect.

Doesn't seem to me you understand this...for your post says you get sucked into what she's doing/not doing...rather than you. The big picture you seem to be missing is that you must change your choice of beliefs, thoughts, intentions, goals and perceptions. You were not in the habit of acting from respect and love (antidotes to the wayward mindset)...and it doesn't seem as if that's your goal right now to acquire the habit to stay cured...part of the extraordinary precautions you are to put into place.

First rule would be to NEVER talk between 12am and 6am. To move heaven and earth to be available to LISTEN to your BW for at least one hour a day (can be 1/2 hour in the morning, 1/2 hour in the evening)...and to make sure you both play at least one hour a day together. Part of that UA time can be doing the communication exercise. Part can be RC. Bigger RC on the weekends...and yes, make it happen without excuses BECAUSE of the kids...they would happily, if you ask them 10 years from now, have missed out on your attention for a little bit now, during crisis (and beginning recovery is still crisis) than to have their family broken apart.

Marriage first, then children. You get this backwards (focusing on the children because they are innocent and you both are not) and you won't have that intact family to ask later. I know...we lived it backwards, too. Put your marriage first and the rest will follow.

No has to call in sick...she did call in sick. Get into the routine of that difference. No one has to talk during those hours...you can make the time...you made it to have an affair...you made it court and woo your wife...you'll be making that time to keep you both in love with each other later...learn it now. Learn what can be done differently (like hire a weekly maid) to allow for the UA time.

Then do the exercises so you can really hear and be heard...know and be known...and experience acts of respect and love within your marriage right away.

I agree with Cat...saying there is no hope of controlled conversations not late at night is saying you are choosing to end your marriage. That's the bottom line. Your part is to own your part...that's what you said. Then state it like you own it...you are choosing not to...

You both can make different choices. If one of you had a terminal illness and wouldn't be alive in two months, you would be making the time. Well, your marriage may not last another two months...looks terminal to me if you, the WS, isn't understanding amends and really doing them (from the inside out)...so this isn't me in hyperbole.

Communication exercise we did is a marriage saver, IMO. No DJs involved...has room for both of you. If you both want to get your priorities straight and learn to communicate well, from respect and love...then ask me.

You'll need to learn how to, anyway, for your next marriage, correct? Why not do it now, together? One has the added benefit of redemption...the other, of healing the unforgivable. I don't see the down side.

You might even recover if you stick to doing it, holding yourself to the exercise boundaries...they go a long way in healing and redeeming, IME.

LA

Thanks for posting CP and LA, I will respond to your posts tomorrow as im going to respond to my W's first.

Hi yllan - see you're online.

Thinkin of dipping your toes back into MB and creating a wonderful marriage?


She DOES, doesn't she?

You ready to help her build the marriage she deserves?

Hello MB,

Its been a while but im back and seeking answers/advice to help push my marriage into a state of focused recovery.

So where to start...... wow its been soo long, well actually last year since I last posted!!

I wish I could say theres a lot to report on, but shamefully thats not really the case. Obviously theres been some big issues which i'll address, some small issues and some improvements so lets begin.


Major issues:

1) Job training - I started my new job in March and its a fantastic job with amazing perks and really suites our family down to the ground. Only drawback was it required a 4 week stay away from home in a hotel half way up the country; only travelling back at weekends.

Before I left we agreed that I would phone every night to say goodnight to the children and then I would phone back later each evening so we could catch up and talk.

We also agreed that I wouldnt drink as she was concerned about me controlling myself after having a drink and that was a trigger for her.

I had preivously bought a book on emotional intelligence called 'Applied EI' as I really dont understand a lot of things emotional based and wanted to try and improve myself for myself but more importantly the marriage and my wife. I had put off reading it the previous 3 months when I had been at home not wokring but everytime I tried to read it something got in the way. Although it was my idea to study EI my failure to follow through with it making excuse after excuse about reading the book, understandibly frustrated my wife as again I was failing. It came down to me promising to read it on my trip, and my wife called it a last chance to improve things although she didnt believe I would have any chance of reading it due to my course content but I was adament I could.

I drove up on a sunday as my group were supposed to meet for dinner at the hotel at 8. The drive was a few hours. Whilst driving my wife phoned me to check I was ok and we chatted for almost an hour. During that time I asked to speak to the kids as I thought I might as well say goodnight as I didnt know how things were going to work at the hotel and didnt want to mess up instantly. She said they were busy so I didnt talk to them. Upon reaching the hotel I had to book in and unpack my belongings. I met up with the people from my course and we went and after a short presentation from the course trainers had dinner as expected. Being the first dinner it lasted longer than expected as we hadnt had a chance to pre-order our food and our group had just short of 30 people in it so the order was large as you can imagine. Anyway by the time I got back to my room it was around 10 and my wife called me very angry as I hadnt said goodnight to the boys. I couldnt believe this was already happening on day one considering she knew the exact situation my end. So had massive argument and left things unresolved.

Next day was spent learning how the course was going to work, course artinary, breakfast/lunch/dinner/break and finishing times etc.... During the first lunch we wandered over to a nearby supermarket which was around walk 10mins away to see what was what. My course finshed 5-5:30 most days and dinner was 6:30-8 so I told my wife I would phone around 6 to say goodnight to the kids as they eat around 5:30 and then phone her later around 9-10 ish so she would be relaxed and ready to talk un-interrupted.

So I was in my room and she contacted me about 5:45 angry that I hadnt had any contact at all today considering how things were left the night before. I was confused as I was about to ring the kids as agreed. She was fuming that I hadnt thought about her during the day enough to contact her. I told her that it was day one and I was still learning how things were going to run. She couldnt understand why I couldnt find time to send a simple text message even if it was whilst walking to the supermarket. We ended up anguing again and that lasted onto the evening chat too.

During one of our arguments she was dissapointed that I wasnt taking EP's into account considering how hard this trip was for her and how many tiggers it has. I commented "did she want me contacting her like a robot or to contact her when im thinking about her?" she was angry as this meant I wasnt thinkihng about her as often as I should be.

This continued to be the theme for more or less the whole 4 weeks. Things between us were stretched and cold and we were always arguing. I didnt get much reading done as between course work, our arguments (not minutes but hours each one) and my lack of willpower.

Another major issue from course was that in week 2 I phoned her to ask if she could transfer money to my card so I could have one beer while watching a football match. She did it but later when we spoke she was furious that I had had a drink when I had promised not to drink and watched a football match instead of reading my book again as I had promised.

Upon returning home everything went backwards, I felt really angry as this should have been time away from the family for me to see how I missed them and to work on myself, but NEVER once did I feel on my own. My wife was permanently there harassing me and stressing me out. So obviously when she asked if I had missed the family I couldnt say yes as I felt I had NEVER left them????

2) Violence - I have always had a tendancy to hold my emotions in leading to an outburst ALWAYS at inanimate objects. Before the affair I had NEVER laid a hand on my wife. Since the affair I have become soo stressed and frustrated that I have reached new levels of outbursts. I still have my occassional outbursts at objects etc.... But now in arguments im verbally fighting back where before I would be the passive one and my wife would shout and scream. Now im joining her it means the arguments dont really defuse and that leads to huge amounts of anger and frustration for us both.

It all came to a head while the football world cup was on. I had friends round watching the football as they had done previous matches. I had promised my wife that my friends would leave after the football as we had been working opposite shifts and hadnt had any together time for a while. My friends and I had some drinks (no where near enough to be intoxicated) but still we had been drinking. After the football finished I expected my friends to leave as a couple of them had kids and they would need dinner and bed etc.. and my only concern was getting rid of my other friend. So the football finished and didnt go well; we were all talking and expressing our views. My wife removed herself upstairs as she was frustrated, I saw this and followed her into the bedroom and tried to cuddle her. She didnt want to talk and she felt the evening had been ruined. I became increasing frustrated and angry that I felt she was being unreasonable and that we could still spend time together. She became repetitive and i lost my cool and smacked her side and said "stop being such a spoilt b***h". She jumped out of bed in shock and started yelling "dont touch me".

She preceeded to try and leave the room to go downstairs which frustrated me as I hate public scenes and shes plays off them. So I angryily grabbed her by the arms and threw her onto the bed and held her down. I shouted at her that she was psycho etc....

I got off and she tried to leave the room again and I pinned her up against the wall by her face and scrathed her arm. I let go and went downstairs and left her with a close friend. She called me back up a while later and asked if I was going to apologise for what I had just done, I didnt and she said that in that case she was going call the police. I ignored her and went downstairs. She called police and they came and arrested me and I spent quite a few hours in a cell and was finger printed, interviewed etc....
I felt angry as I am becoming a person that I dont like and thats not me. I work for the government so a criminal record means I could well lose my job. I felt like I should leave this marriage before it/she turns me into a monster and I do something truely terrible.

I recieved a police caution which means if I reoffend I will instantly be charged. My wife picked me up and was expecting a full apology for my behaviour. I could bring myself to do it as I was soo angry that she had reduced me to nothing but a thug after being a gentle perosn my entire life. I felt terrible for hurting her but was so angry with what i saw as her part that it took me quite a while to utter an apology.


3) Lack of affair apology - Its been almost 2 years since D-day for my wife and apart from a couple of half assed attempts shes had nothing to go on.

I've fought this as up until very recently as I havent understood or agreed to my wifes definition of an apology. She has spent hours of emotional input trying to help me to 'get it' but has never got though.

I now understand that despite what I think I have to trust my wife in terms of what she needs.

The apology will be done very soon.

4) Upon returning from my course I added people to facebook from the course both male and female without consulting my wife, one of wish looked very simliar to the OW. This was a boundry that I had set myself, to communicate at all times when adding females on facebook as I have behaved innappropriately at various times thoughtout the marriage via facebook. Understandly she was angry and although I initally deflected her anger I did admit I was wrong and removed all the females and apologised for it.


Positive improvements:

1) My wife has relinquished control over the finances and I now control them and am doing a great job (her words not mine)

2) I am more involved with the kids and take them out more than I used to and without moaning and always fearing the worst

3) I have been very supportive towards my wife especially regarding her diet and her work.


Conclusion:

Right so here we are..... Our family has improved, our finances are showing signs of improving and our marriage is ok. Not where it should be just ok.

My wife is waiting for an apology which I plan to do very soon although theres still time for you to reply to my doubts above regarding this issue. Thanks

My wife wants to follow MB although im not sure she herself is capable. She appears to process things a little different to people here and maybe thats why not many people try to help?? I dont know, she has her own doubts over whether she can meet my EN's even if I did meet hers but I guess thats for us to see once I've upped my game.

Biggest issue for me is that our life is stupidly busy and I mean FULLY busy!!! I would say that I have a full time job (evening work so no alone time together for us at all), I would estimate I do 80-90% of the housework and almost every meal in our house, plus organise my wifes diet food for her. I have 4 kids to look after as she works mornings most days of the week and 3 evenings. I am in full control of the finances both monthly and weekly. I barely manage 15hours of down time a week let alone 15 hours dedicated just to marriage and uninterupted. This is a big issue so please dont down play it or make comments like - if you want it bad enough you will make it happen. Our life is busy and evenings are more or less out or bounds!!
Only thing I do for myself EVER is I go to the gym 3 days a week for about 1-30 to 2 hours each time. This is my only sin (if you need to call it that) and this is down to my insecurities with my body.

Everytime we talk about EN's and MB I feel like I want to say ok, but I cant manage everything, some things going to have to give but then she things im playing games. I dont think its reasonable for me to do all I am doing and then add all this dedicated work as well. The people who know US agree how hard I work and can see what I do, so I genuinely believe I am not exaggerating what I have said here.

Please help me to focus on stepping up my game and also help us to find a way to sensibly implement MB into our lives.

Thanks, please feel free to ask any questions as im trying to cover a whole 8 months here from memory.

Thanks for any posts.

You need to apologize to your wife, you should HAVE NOT even touched her, especially with how much you were drinking. I would have called the cops too if you were my husband.

If you had PROMISED your wife a night after the game...then you should ALWAYS keep your promise, you could have handled that situation a little better....

1.) You should have talked to the guy's when they GOT THERE or even before they arrived to say "ok guys as soon as the game is over it will be honey and I's time...if you know what I mean" Then give em a wink, they WILL leave if they know you will be getting some action after the game! Even if that was NOT the case, it would have worked.

2.) You should have not been drinking, knowing that is a HUGE trigger to your wife I suggest you quitting all together, I believe that was one of the issues that night. Not only your had promised to spend time with her but you were also drinking, BAD IDEA! Talk to your wife about attending AA meetings so you can stop your drinking, you don't have to be an alcoholic to attend.

3.) Since you were drinking you were not thinking straight so when you pushed her onto the bed, and pinned her against the wall WAS THE BIGGEST MISTAKE YOU HAD MADE!!

You are at fault for these issues, and YOU need to apologize for them!

You need to understand something, everything you did...going out of town for 4 weeks, drinking, and making promises and breaking them are HUGE triggers to your wife, I would have acted the same way if I knew my husband would have been out of town for that long and didn't even send me a text that said "miss you babe!"

Till this day my husband has triggers, and I can't control them but I understand the pain he get's when those triggers come up, and SO SHOULD YOU!

Here is my advice FOR YOUR WIFE:

SEPARATE yourself from HIM.

According to him, his decision to PHYSICALLY AND VERBALLY ABUSE YOU was your fault.

He is NOT a safe man for you to be living with at this time.

Quoting Dr Harley:

Quote

Alcohol, Abuse, and Infidelity


It's not uncommon for a woman married to an abusive alcoholic to try to escape by having an affair. There are reasons why this approach to abuse seems appropriate at the time. An abused woman is often financially dependent on her husband, and could not easily support herself and her children during a separation. So she looks for another man, usually much older, to provide that support while she transitions out of her marriage. In almost all cases, she ends up jumping from the frying pan into the fire. The abusive husband becomes even more dangerous, and the other man usually ends up dumping the frightened woman and her children. As the writer of this letter notes, the man she turned to "turned out to be a jerk."

Control and abuse in marriage are deal-breakers. They are not only a risk to a woman's safety, but they also prevent her from feeling romantic love toward her husband. That's why I call them Love Busters. Selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts combine to create control and abuse, and every couple should do whatever is necessary to eliminate them. They should not be tolerated. When an abusive spouse refuses to overcome these destructive habits, I generally advise the abused spouse to separate until safety is restored, even if it is financially difficult for them.

But while I recommend separation when a spouse is being verbally or physically abused, I do not recommend separation when a spouse is having an affair. The reason, of course, is that the separation usually makes it easier to make contact with the lover. So when abuse and infidelity occur at the same time, my advice tends to be on a case-by-case basis. This week's couple is an example of cases where I tend to keep spouses together.

FYI

Not once in 29 years has my dear husband called me a name.

Not once.

Even when he was drinking .... and he IS an alcoholic.

Not once in 29 years has my dear husband physically abused me, or even come close.

Not once.

YOU sir, are a dangerous man.

Thanks for taking time to respond, I value all feedback as its your time and you didnt have to write to me to try and help me and my family.


Absolutely couldnt agree more, I will never touch her again, we addressed this issue and agreed that if ever either of us feels ourselves getting THAT angry we will remove ourself from the argument; not by walking out but by stating we are taking a break


You are right, I should have been more dedicated to clearing the house after the football and yes the drink did cloud my judgement on the situation.

I am very quilty of breaking promises to my wife especially when it comes to something recovery based. Thats why shes feeling so lost, she has run out of hope and belief that I can make this happen


Im going to explain this as I dont want this being blown out of proportion. In the average week I drink NOTHING. I drink maybe once in 1-2 months if I see my friends (and even them I dont get drunk) and you can ask on my wifes thread if my drinking is an actual issue.

The REASON why drinking was a boundry for my work course was because I was drinking on both occassions I slept with the POSOW. Being away from home and drinking was the trigger for my wife, NOT me actually drinking.

Does that make sense?? It was my fault for not explaining properly but with so much to catch up I didnt know what to mention and what not too.

Trust me drinking is not even a TINY issue at all, ask my wife


My wife still triggers often and somethings I see and understand it and will comfort her and other times I will miss it or not get it and it goes un-dealt with.

As I stated above im quilty of breaking promises with recovery so understandibly my wifes patience with this is extremely low.

It wasnt 4 weeks without any contact but the first night and 2nd day without extra contact (EP). Once I was settled I instigated much more contact but because we had had the argument about it the meaning had gone and my wife just believed I was doing it to keep her quiet and didnt believe there was any sincerity in it even though there was.

But thats my problem I do things but not before shes raised an issue, which then takes away from whatever it is I've done.


Dont get me wrong I have MANY many things to improve on and I know that, I just dont know how to encorperate it with normal life???

Thanks for your input, Ive seen you post in many threads, you are very blunt and direct but always make a good point.

I feel so gutted as your statement above is exactly what my wife used to say about me. In the 8 years pre-affair it was my wife who always name called and she could never understand how I didnt retaliiate, but was proud and used to praise me etc...

Post-affair im soo ashamed to say that the statement is no longer true. I feel a much higher level of frustration in me and yes I probably should look into an anger management class of some kind. Fitting that in will be fun but joking aside I will look into this.

My wife can respond to whether im dangerous or not better than me but I believe im still a gentle person at heart (stop laughing) but have a BIG problem when frustrated and that NEEDS to be addressed

This post is to your wife:

I agree with Pepperband. Please remove yourself and your children from this man. He has made it clear in his posts that he cares about no one but himself and that he is annoyed and frustrated at having to be bothered with a wife and kids.

He cheats on you and he gets physically violent with you, but then blames others for his own cruelty, selfishness and poor choices.

He would have to do much work to ever be a decent marriage partner. You cannot do it for him. You have tried long enough.

Well, I must say, I am heartened by your response to me.
I was half-expecting a name-calling, profanity-filled angry retort.

Good on you!

Your anger / frustration problem should be addressed before anything else.

You should change the title of this thread to "How can I avoid doing the real work to save this marriage?"

I have read excuse after excuse on this thread of why not to take the advice, AND, not only that, I have read how you would then like your wife to take the advice from MBs she is being given and run with it. My advice to her is to RUN.

You, sir, are remorseless. Not apologizing for physically abusing your wife? What? You SHOULD go to jail for assault! It's the LAW! You SHOULD apologize for such an offense, you should pay for the wrongs done to others.

Not understanding emotions, yours or others...sounds like some personality disorder. You could see a doctor and get diagnosed and then use THAT as an excuse to avoid doing what is right.


Me me me me me me me me me me me me me....



...this is just wrong. Do you really consult the Harleys? Being away from your family doesn't bring you closer, it drives you apart. Duh! It's MB 101.


You are responsible for yourself here. Your wife cannot in any way control your reactions. YOU grabbed her, shoved her about and frightened her in an attempt to control her, physically and mentally. ALL YOU. Don't blame others for the things you do.



From wikipedia
Apology may refer to:
An expression of regret, roughly a dislike of one's own actions in the past

From dictionary.com
a�pol�o�gy&#8194; &#8194;[uh-pol-uh-jee] Show IPA
�noun, plural -gies.
1.
a written or spoken expression of one's regret, remorse, or sorrow for having insulted, failed, injured, or wronged another

Your wife doesn't need to define WHAT an apology is. You KNOW what it is and should be the one finding ways to express it and SHOW it. SHOWING it (actions) is the best way; changing your poor behaviors, setting up and following EPs without being coaxed to do it by your wife. STOP MAKING EXCUSES!

DJ...who are you to draw this conclusion?

Start sharing responsibilities at home. More excuses here for not doing the work. POJA how to get the work done, spreading the work out.

From your post, it comes off that you are disrespectful of your wife. That she somehow is just too dumb to 'get' you or to 'get' MB and follow it. MB is an SOP for saving your marriage. It's cut and dried. Follow it closely, you have the best chance to save your marriage. Make excuses why NOT to follow the SOP, and you will fail.

Im sorry you feel that im that nasty!! The only time I got angry on MB was when someone wrongly attacked my wife and I defended her.

Anyway its nice to surprise someone whether they were being sarcastic or not

Your post made me cry. My first H was abusive and of course he had an A before I divorced him. I remember him slamming me against a wall because he had made a promise to me, broke it and I questioned him about it. I agree with pepper, you are abusive. Not only did you have an A, but you also abused your W. You really don't realize how awful it is to have to suffer through knowing your spouse decided to invite some other POS into your M without your consent. You wrote that it had been a while since you and your W have had alone time and yet you still allowed your friends to stay over and basically ignore your W's need for affection. You really don't deserve your W.

Your wife will never fall in love with you unless you stop lovebusters.

You can clean the house, do the laundry, make tons of $$$, cook great meals, bring her flowers .... and her love bank account is instantly EMPTY when you yell, hit, call names, give dirty looks .... and then blame HER for your inappropriate actions.

YOU have become your wife's GREATEST source of PAIN and UNHAPPINESS.
You've gotten really efficient at making those withdrawls..

WHAT are you going to do about that?

Thanks for posting, wow theres a lot to address here.....



Yes they maybe excuses but its still our life that we share together and its rather jam packed?!?

With regards to the apology to my wife regarding violence you're absolutely right, my frustration wasnt with her but the situation. She didnt do anything to deserve or warrant anything of the disgusting behaviour I showed towards her that evening.


Not going to fight you here, it does concern me how different I appear to be compared to other people, but every medical person Ive seen likes me and trusts me as i come accross as sane/calm and clever. It took my wife coming with me and begging my doctor just to get a therapist :-s


OMG WOAH you are WAYYYYYYY off target here but thats not your fault it was badly explained, here goes.....

My wife wanted me to experience life without the family so I can see how lonely it would be if we had to seperate.

I was angry as when she then questioned me on my feelings regarding this I felt it had never happened???

make sense?? not mememememememememe just badly explained


True true true



Im going to side step this, sorry


Sure I followed that statement by explaining that I got my doubts from her doubts that she clearly expressed to me??



Not that simple, wife has poly cycstic Ovarium Syndrome and suffers with cronic fatigue. Plus her way of dealing with sadness is to escape to our bedroom, plus we work oposite work shifts so our schedule is tight.



Hope I've cleared a couple of the issues up or maybe just explained a little better even if they still are issues.

Time needs to be made and effort needs to be upped. Not as overnight as that though. although i guess it has been 2 years now. My wife admits our life is better now so something is working despite the busy schedule but unless we help the marriage I guess thats all pointless??

Find way to UNjam pack it. That is the point. There are things that you can stop doing outside of the family, until such a time that your family, the most important thing you got going, is safe and sound. Right now, you are not doing that.



put this into context. These medical professionals don't have you under any real stress or scrutiny...your wife does. You will not react in their presence as you do with your wife behind closed doors where you allow poor behaviors more than you would with colleagues or docs.


Again, this is an excuse. Have either one of you considered either cutting back your schedules or changing your careers? There's more than one way to make these changes. That's what POJA is all about. If you are stretched to thin, find a way to make it work. NO EXCUSES.

You are not telling me or most here anything we haven't been through or already know. Every good plan starts with step one, and takes a great deal of time to implement. Gotta start NOW.

Im not going to quote this in bits as its a good, fair repsonse.

Most of this needs to be discussed with my wife

Thank you for responding again

Y-E:

Your so full of it your eyes are brown.

You assault your WIFE three times within a matter of minutes, and its her fault.

She asks for a simple apology or she is calling the police.

And you couldn't even manage an apology then...

Withholding the "simple apology" is an extreme power trip. You will APOLOGIZE when she BEGS FOR IT. Maybe when you have her on the floor with her hair twisted in your left hand, and your finger in her face with your right, and you say "Here's your sorry, RIGHT HERE"

Sorry, pal. You should be locked up. Anger management classes, and maybe long term parole. Loss of your job, and your family. You are NOT worthy of them.

All your claims of being a peaceful "kumbaya" kind of guy went out the window completly and utterly with your A's, and your later actions.

You don't want your WIFE on MB because she doesn't "toe the line" for you anymore.
You rage and blame others for YOUR ACTIONS.
You escaped serious criminal sanction because you assulted your WIFE, and not someone else, like a waitress or a store clerk. Your actions, if with someone else, would have probably resulted in involuntary imprisonment charges, (When she tried to leave and you blocked it..) and if not 2nd degree assault, 3rd degree assault.

YOU, SIR, ARE ALREADY A MONSTER.

You should be groveling in front of your wife for her forgiveness.
You should be thankful that your not sharing the 12x7 with "Bubba" right now.
You should be DOING EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to fix yourself.

Not knowing HOW to apologize... What a crock.

You can't apologize because you feel YOU DID NOTHING WRONG.

And THAT sir, makes you a MONSTER.

Your Wife should RUN, not walk, away from you with the kids.

LG

Dang LG.
Just, DANG!

LG, our resident UPS man, always there with a prompt delivery. Bravo!

Silent and Pep:

I am afraid for BH28. Seriously afraid.

Y-E says what needs to be said to others, but withholds that from his Wife. His actions speak much louder about the actual inner turmoil.

I fear for BH28....

LG

If you wont quit drinking, then do your wife a favor and just leave. I don't care if you only drink twice a year....

IT

IS

A

TRIGGER

FOR

HER!!

If you can't even DO THAT!! Then there is nothing else I can say.

Good luck and god bless your poor wife!

I read yllan's post earlier and composed my thoughts during lunch... got back and - I have nothing to say.

LG you hit it right on the head.

Yllan - only YOU are responsible for your behavior.

You are incredibly unsafe for your wife. Incredibly. You have a lot of work to do and she shouldn't have to be around for it.

Your posting here has only demonstrated your self-absorption and the danger you pose to your wife and family.


It can't be said any better - being emotionally backwards is no excuse, it is a convenient cop out for you to keep from having to take any accountability for your actions.

Your wife needs to leave you. If you loved her, you let her.

Hi everyone
I think on this occasion its appropriate for me to post on his thread to make sure you are all ok and to say thank you for your concerns, I agree with everything said on here as it has truth in it however I would like to clarify something as WS is now frustrated and going off MB again when I have worked so hard over the past week to get him to come here and get some help again.

I am not sticking up for him but i beleive in fairness and as much as i am really appreciating the 2x4s he is getting right now and hoping the wake up call will follow it would not be fair for me to let them happen without explaining that i do not think he is an alcoholic, i am happy for him to drink at home with his friends once in a while (and i mean once every couple of month) he is generally a happy drinker however after the assault I will be asking him to refrain from drinking until he sorts his issues out as I will not want to be in a position to risk him getting violent for any reason. I am not happy for him to drink at hotels/bars/pubs away from home as this is a trigger for me and i do not want the next excuse for and affair to be "I was drunk" so thats the deal.

Violence wise what he did was unacceptable and it still shocks me to the core its like adding insult to injury but i have to be fair and say that this type of behaviour is not the regular thing for him it has become gradually more present since the affair but the latest escalation is the end of it. HE WILL LOOSE his job wife and kids should he ever touch me again. I might be in love with him but i love my children more than to subject them to a life with a wife beater. His emotional abuse however is an issue and that needs to stop before destroying our family.

Please take the above information into consideration when talking to him as he was such a nice gentle caring person before the A and it pains me to see him labelled as an alcoholic or regular wife beater as up until now he has been nither of these things however without help i can see he will be.
thanks

I will email your wife.

Have a look at this webiste - find out if you have something similar in your area.
Dom Violence support


This has been good for both of us (I don't attend)

Anger management and books helped to some extent for my H as did regular counselling.

But the thing that has made real difference is the Perpetrators of Abuse course that he is doing.

Until you realise that your actions are your responsibility you will be a risk to BH28 and your children.

The scene that you described made me feel sick, made me physically tremble - I have been in the exact same position as BH28 being pinned up against the wall.

The best thing my H did was move out and gather his thoughts and book himself on the course.

I also have a shelf full of books that may help you _ I will post them to you and one for BH28 too. Your wife now has 2 very serious things to recover from.

Please be a man and move out - show her that respect.

It is not your job to smooth things over with him. He is a big boy - you aren't his mommy. He is getting frustrated and about to backslide on progress and so you are scrambling to 'make everything ok' for him. You are keeping him from the consequences of his actions. You are hindering his progress.

If he quits MB again, it is HIS fault, not yours for not smoothing things over well enough, and not ours for giving him an honest and true analysis of his behavior.

You need to STOP doing this for him BH. He is an ADULT. He doesn't need you to 'fix' things for him.

If he quits MB again and uses this as an excuse, you know then that he has no interest in changing. You have said yourself he has never had to face the consequences of his actions. He doesn't have to - first his mom, and NOW YOU fix those consequences for him. All he has to do is throw a little fit - and you swoop in to 'save everything' for him.


You should NOT be ok with this. He is incapable of drinking responsibly. You are enabling his misbehavior.

STOP IT.


It is escalating, and it will get WORSE. He has had to bear almost NO consequences, and none of real merit, for his action. Again. As long as he is protected from the consequences of his action he will continue to act as if others don't matter - because they don't.

YOU are playing into this dysfunction. STOP IT.


He should already lose his wife and kids. He does nothing to protect them from his abuse.


We can, and should only consider his CURRENT behavior. He is not who he was before the A, he is who he is NOW and that person, needs a LOT of work. Work he has to do on himself. Work you cannot do for him.

LET HIM do what he has to do.



It isn't WILL BE. He IS those things. Hit your wife ONCE and you are a wife beater. Lose control while drinking, you will continue to lose control.

HE HAS A PROBLEM.

Smoothing things over will only exacerbate the problem.

He needs HELP, he needs HONESTY, he needs a mirror held up to his face.

YOU should not be making excuses for him.

Why is it ok for him to be a one-time wife beater but not a 'regular' wife beater? ANY wife beater is not ok. It would mean something if he were actually remorseful and repentant for his act, if he were seeking help to change his behavior. But he isn't. He is blaming it on you, the family situation, the color of the sky...whatever.

And you - the codependent wife are rushing to sooth his hurts, to make it all ok for him.

BH stop this, please.

Let him feel, for once, the consequences of his actions. He will never learn otherwise.

vibressa i get the message loud and clear thank you again

BH28: Just so you know, I have followed your sitch since both of you arrived here.

I really thaought that Y-E was going to "get it".

He hasn't, and apparently, has gotten WORSE.

And any request by HIM to YOU that he needs to be "Plan Aed" in order for this marriage to survive is just about the lowest of the low.

HE SHOULD BE PLAN Aing YOU! To the extent that it HURTS.

He can leave MB. That is HIS choice. HIS CHOICE. He can come here and post, and maybe start seeing how messed up he really is. His actions towards you since the affair have been shocking and as far from an MB recovery as I have ever seen here, (With both spouses being aware of MB principles).

BH28: I have apologized MANY times for my actions when I was in my affair to my BW. I have held her while she cried from the pain, and tried to sort it all out, and I have felt the sting of her angry words. I have continued to apologize, 5 YEARS later..... When ever she has something that triggers, or hurts, or just gives her pause, I talk to her about it, and try to MAKE HER PAIN LESS. NOT ADD TO IT.

He will use these 2x4's to try and further isolate you. He will use these 2x4's to to say that it hurts HIM.

So WHAT.

When he comes here, and shows some REAL REMORSE, and some REAL ACTIONS to fix what he has done, then maybe, just maybe, he WON'T get a 2x4 from me.

Until then, he can rot next to "Bubba." Your FAR to valuable to be yoked to this guy.

And this isn't about alcoholism, or anything about that. I can see some parallells, but this is much more different than that.....

LG

BH28, your WH abused you. He is who he is right now. He isn't who he was in the past. You can't fix the PAST. You also shouldn't be on this thread trying to make us back off of your WH. You should probably stop reading his thread all together. He's a grown man and can speak for himself.

If your WH is going off of MB, it says to you and all of us that he is not in this to do the hard work. He needs to take the initiative to change his behaviors. Maybe you are unwilling to stop trying to control him and see him for who he is. He is not who he WAS...he is who he IS...TODAY.

Again .... DANG LG!
Just ....... dang

Pep:

WOW! Two Dangs in a row!



LG

I have alot of posts to catch up on and no im not running from MB but you guys are obsessed that I drink too much or am a drunk - get with the programme ITS NOT TRUE - I badly worded my initial post and again IM SORRY but geeze enough.

Yes I got her to post as i cant spend my life answering to an issue that ONLY YOU GUYS ARE MAKING AN ISSUE???

Seriously I cant talk about the ridiculous drinking anymore is laughable.


As far as the violence goes, yes what you are posting is acceptable but I accept my physical behaviour was wrng and disgusting and unnacceptable and have apologised for it and will continue to do so as I do regret it. Yes ive chnaged since the affair so I understand you guys are looking out for my wife and kids - I get that.

But its ridiculous that everyone is only focusing on the drinking - NOT AN ISSUE and the violence - YES A BIG ISSUE that I promise I will look into over the weekend. But can some other advice please be given as from all thats been said so far the only constructive thing I've gained is whether I should get my wife a sat nav or a map??

If your going to post please advice on more than the obvious?? I cant respond to 100 posts about the exact same thing, otherwise my copy paste buttons will become worn out.....

Funny - you've apologized for the abuse, but the affair, that is 2 years old - you're 'working' on that.

Don't you see how unsafe you are?

The affair is a biggy but right now, he needs to ensure the physical safety of his family and deal properly with that.

He is not remorseful for the affair...because no consequences have occurred for that. He IS sorry for the physical abuse cuz he was sent to jail and could lose his job...NOT because he has terrorized his wife and forced her into submission. He's even got her fighting his battles on his thread. What a wimpy thing to do.

COME ON! Waiting til the weekend to find a solution for your abusive nature? Seriously? What's the excuse for waiting...cuz your behavior has already told us that you've got an excuse for almost everything...even if you won't admit it out loud...you are thinking it.

Man the hell up! Get to fixing what is broken and stop making excuses and putting it off...hoping that your wife will submit and you won't have to grow the heck up

Y-E:

That is all you got from all that?

That you have a drinking problem and a domestic violence issue?

How about this:

You refuse to accept responsibilty for your actions whether you have struck someone or slept with them.
Refuse to do the most basic things to show your wife that you "may be getting it"
Think that things are "really great" in your marriage, simply because your getting YOUR WAY, and BH28 is being agreeable?
Your more concerned about losing your job since YOUR ACTIONS may result in your release from your job.

And you still can't say your sorry.

The man doth protesth to much...

Had "Bubba" wrapped you around one of your prison cots for 10 minutes like you had done to BH28, you WOULD BE FURIOUS, and DEMANDING THAT "Bubba" be cahrged with all manner of crimes.

Yet you minimuze your crime: "I will look into it over the weekend"

Before or after the football match? I'm a ManU fan myself.

I might get an answer for that one...

And if ANYONE in MB land has BH28's email, please be sure to remain a lifeline if at all possible. It could be an ugly weekend...

LG

I have emailed her my phone number and i am not very far away.

That's great Stay, I was worried about that too.

OMG..............

well I guess I'll say thanks??????

wow this is being really conspiracy theory!!!!

You wanna focus on you for a bit now?

No conspiracy. My H isn't here right now, but he may be willing to help you, give you a few pointers.

I had the opportunity to read the posts since EmotionallyBackward (EB) started posting again and was able to plow through all of them together in one reading. There were a few things that struck me about both his and his BW's dynamic.
First off,
notice that EB "thanks" each poster, even when they post something blunt and challenging. This is a classic negotiation trick from Dale Carnegie (How to win friends and influence people). Say thanks, find things to praise, get your "opponent" on your side. Sorry pal, that won't wash here.
Secondly, EB likes to AGREE with us on things, promises to do things, then DOES NOTHING. Anyone remember the word for that? PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE. (Ok, two words)
So, we have a Dale Carnegie-trained-passive-aggressive. Oh, and add to that an abusive drunk. Not saying you're drunk all the time, but most of the few times you do drink, you get into big trouble (affairs, domestic violence). Hey, I'd take someone who drank every night but went to bed with me and didn't beat me up a couple times a year.
I'm not even going to go into any of the things you need to do to help your marriage, because you already have that. You've had it since you started posting long ago. You've chosen NOT to take that advice but to try to use your skills to manipulate your wife into accepting the marriage on YOUR terms. (NO APOLOGIES)
And I don't mean you should say you're sorry, but for once in your life to SHOW you're sorry.
Now, to betrayed wife BH, you have also been given lots of advice, but you take none of it. You WANT this to get negotiated out on your H's terms because that's the path of least resistance. You complain on your thread about how no one posts to you, but some of us gave up because it's clear you don't want to do the heavy lifting (which involves making your husband accountable for his actions, and having DIRE consequences, like JAIL or being KICKED OUT OF THE HOUSE, when he doesn't get there).Don't complain about your situation--you haven't taken ANY of the advice offered and that's why we've stopped offering. Time on this earth is finite, and we don't want to waste time on people who aren't going to work to better their situation. Stop rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Your marriage is circling the drain--and it's because of abuse, addiction and adultery--the deadly three. If the abuse and addiction don't stop, then the adultery is small potatoes.
Oh, one more thing EB--don't THANK me for my post. I'm not going to be manipulated by your little tricks. I know you just want people to side with you and accept your failings, like your wife does.

Nice post ima!

Wow! Go back to his first posts, starting in October. Each one is peppered with "thanks!" and smiley faces.
You're a WIFE BEATER and a CHEATER, EB.






Smiley faces and "Thanks!" don't cut it.

Post #2--look at all the smileys and Thnanks!

Post #3-- "Thanks!"

Post #4, and thanks!

Post #5, thanks again!!

I could literally go back to every post he's ever made and find a "thanks" or a
At what point does he ever SHOW that he's grateful by taking advice or by doing thins to better his marriage? NEVER.

Yeah, get anger management. That help?

ETA: I just researched a bit on anger management in your neck of the woods. Were I serious about getting help, I would already have it, as it took milliseconds to find a useful site.

But you're not interested in getting help are you - you are interested in LOOKING like you are getting help.

I'm not your mommy or your wife to show you where to go to get help. Your little fingers made it all the way to MB, they can navigate the internet to find local sources of help for Anger problems.

This whole post is legendary. What a total scam.

yllanoitomE,

What do you think you're teaching your boys about how to treat a woman? Have you apologized to THEM for abusing their mother?

And this was my first post to you, right after that long one above. And it was back in November. We're approaching A YEAR since this all started and you've made ZERO progress. You've learned the terminology and how to manipulate the system, but you've actually gone from being just an adulterer to being a straight up ABUSER.

ok i cant keep up with all these posts, if my wife was at work this evening I would have spent it here posting but she isnt and im jo-jo ing up and down stairs tyring to spend time with her and respond to MB.

Yes I said I would look into Anger management over the weekend as I said im trying to spend time with wife tonight, tomorrow morning my wife and I are off to a wedding and not back till saturday afternoon. So yes I felt the weekend was a fair statement??

imanotherone - I say thanks for one reason:

People dont have to spend their time replying to me as it THEIR OWN PERSONAL time. It would be rude to EXPECT it or ASSUME its going to keep coming??

jesus now I feel rude for being polite lol what the hell is the world coming too lol

im sorry if you feel that its a ploy to get friends but hey guess what im not going to stop as its POLITE and to make matters even worse for you, im still going to thank you too as you still took time to post and go to HUGE lengths to prove your point

No, it's rude to say 'thank you I'll look into that' and then not look into it, not make any changes, not make any progress and continually abuse your wife.

Ima's not upset about the thank yous - it's the thank you's coupled with the lack of sincerity or introspection.


YOU just proved her point. And again a thank you - but where is the sincerity?

Good try trying to get off topic here and spin it so you look the victim. Ima is right on point here.

Y-E:

Its EASY to keep up with the posts.

I have been on the phone and printing info this whole time that I have ben posting to you and BH28.

Yes, you gotta run downstairs...

There has been ALOT of time invested in you two today.

What, pray tell, is going to be the result?

LG

And AGAIN...if you actually cared about what you are doing to your wife and marriage you wouldn't make any excuses for avoiding finding a solution to this problem. All it seems that you care about is getting away with as little effort as possible.

Your ACTIONS show that you don't care. Talk is cheap.

ok, I realise my attitude isnt going to get me anywhere the way I am at the moment.

I came back for advice and I dont want to be sucked into a war of words.

Some of the posts today have been genuinely helpful and I should be focusing on them instead of the easy responses to posts that have frustrated me but in fact arent getting me anywhere.

Unfortunately its getting late here and I wish to spend time with my wife so I wont respond now but over the weekend I shall pick out the useful posts and respond honestly and without attitude to them....

LG you seem like such an intelligent man with a wealth of knowledge and I would love to chat to you more, this maybe wrong but do you think we can talk civily rather than 2x4's. I absorb better when I understand something than being shouted at thats all.

I know a lot of waywards shock/snap out of it when being slapped with 2x4's but I prefer things to be explained so I can absorb thats all. I would genuinely appreciate this.

Sorry Ive singled out LG, there have been other good posters today and I promise I will revisit - probably on sunday.

Sorry about attitude, hope we can start again.

p.s. Vibrissa your posts are constructive and will definately respond to you on sunday.

I'm certain your wife feels this way as well. Exactly this way.

Look for perpetrators of abuse courses too. Anger man is a good place to start until you can get onto a perps course.

But the most important thing to do is get on a perps course.

ALthough my H has been given the all clear to graduate he is thinking of repeating just to make sure it is ingrained.

I am quite sure he will help you with UK based resources. If not I will help through him - if you ask...

Thank you, handy talking to someone in the uk too.

I used to know this but who is your partner please??

He doesn't post - only reads where I post

Y-E:

Yes, I wielded by far the biggest 2x4 at you, this time.

And you deserve it.

Some waywards "snap out of it from 2x4's" but you need to "think" about it?

You have BEEN THINKING ABOUT IT FOR OVER 10 MONTHS.

Stop thinkisng and START DOING.

Stop thinking and DOING WORSE, and START DOING BETTER.

The one thing I do know since you have been here is that you keep trying to take the focus off of what is important, YOUR ACTIONS, and try to divert them to something else.

More later...

LG

First a quick recap. On Thursday night I delivered a genuine heartfelt apology to my wife for everything I wished to say sorry for. Its wasnt a smooth evening and was understandibly difficult for my wife but we got through it and ended up having SF before falling asleep in each othrs arms.

I have asked since how she feels about the apology and although she says it wasnt perfect, she recognises I tried to meet her needs and overall she is willing to accept it although of course she needs to hear it more for it to become fully trusted.

Ok Its now Sunday and we're back from wedding as expected. We had a nice time and my wife may have stumbled accross a great job opportunity, but I'll let her post about it.

Wedding was beautiful, reception was perfect. We didnt know anyone except the bride but we managed to fit in and make some friends through the night.

Wife was generally ok with the hotel stay in the evening as we were so tired we fell asleep quickly. However in the morning she struggled badly with triggers and flashbacks, we spoke about a few issues to try and aid her recovery from this horrible situation and went down to breakfast so she could have a break. We left the hotel and enjoyed some time shopping and even found a car boot sale (favourite activity lol) to wander round.


As stated im going to look into Anger management today and make a list of courses and specialists to talk to first thing tomorrow morning (guys its a Sunday - NOTHINGS OPEN so dont judge me)

Will post back here my findings.



Would be nice to get information from someone who has already gone through this, especially in my area too.

See you a bit later


p.s. please dont shoot the messenger but its a bank holiday on Monday so expect results on Tuesday instead :-s

What I've found so far:

Many forms of therapy and counciling - the best probably being the following:

http://www.priorygroup.com/Location...rapy%20and%20treatment%20programmes.aspx

In terms of courses, by far the best is this, but the cost is phemomenial and and least for now out of our price range:

http://www.beatingangerbromley.co.uk/anger-management-courses-bromley-bexley


I will contact the Priory for an initial assessment on Tuesday (Monday bank holiday here) and report back.

Please if you know of anything else let me know, I will continue researching myself too.

Sounds excellent, keep up on the anger management, and proving to your DW that you are willing to do anything to get your marriage back on track.

yllan - apologizing once wont be enough.

You need to cultivate an attitude of humility and remorse. Now I'm not saying you should feel guilty, but you have to look at yourself and ACCEPT that you have done some horrible things.

Guilt is not a motivator, it is a depression rooted in self-pity. It is 'wo is me'.

We don't want guilt.

We want remorse. Remorse is a motivator. It is an acceptance that we have committed a horrible wrong that creates in us a desire to put that wrong right.

Guilt puts the focus on us - remorse puts the focus on the one we have wronged.

You probably feel tons of guilt and don't understand why your wife isn't appeased. That is because she doesn't want guilt. She wants and needs to see remorse from you.

Remorse will make it impossible for you to NOT meet her needs. You will be falling over yourself to do so. You will leap at the opportunity to make her world pleasant.

Your apology needs to be SHOWN in every act you commit for your wife.

This is not to say you will be punished for life, but your wife needs to see that you GET what you have done. That you UNDERSTAND how badly you have hurt her.

Remorse.

Get rid of the guilt. All it does is make you feel self-righteous.

Focus on loving and serving your wife. One meeting every one of her needs.

I know you went down the list of her needs. I suggested you put together some lists of ways to meet affection and ways to admire her, ways to give her compliments.

Every morning when you wake up, give her affection. Every day before you leave for work, compliment her. At least once a day text her with something you admire about her. In the evening when you get home, your FIRST action is to go to her and give her some affection. Do this again before bed. Affection the way SHE likes it. When you get home spend a few minutes talking about HER, what you think of HER, how HER day went. Be positive and complimentary.

This will go a LONG way to meeting her needs.

You need to develop the HABIT of meeting these needs. It will be awkward at first as you learn, but over time it will be second nature.

Your wife is tapped out. She really is. She needs YOU to do some heavy lifting emotionally right now. She needs to see consistent, loving action on your part before she can begin to let go.

Get rid of the emotionally backward tripe. You aren't emotionally backwards, and this isn't hard. You just gotta DO it. There really is no 'thinking' involved here. There should just be a willingness to actually GIVE to your wife - with no expectation that you GET anything in return. Your wife has given you TWO years of pain, she needs you to carry her while she recovers. She needs you to step up and be the strong man she needs to get her through this pain and anguish. She needs to know she can trust you so she can let go her anger.

Remorse, yllan - and humility. Use these tools to encase your wife in a healing web of love.

Bump - you feel like working on your marriage today yllan?

right update,

didnt get to call the Anger Management facility yesterday as it was a crazy day from start to finish as im sure my wife has covered on her thread. Ill address that after my update on my plan.

Contacted Anger Management today and found out process and costs. Whether you go through GP or go privately there is a initial assessment by a consultant which costs �300. From there he decides if you need one 2 one sessions which cost �125 per session or group sessions which are slightly cheaper but she didnt specify.

Apparently if I go through my GP its possible to ask for NHS funding if the GP and then the hospital trust believe its valid. Im not sure of exact critia for this whether its based on wages or not, but obviously im going to have to try this route as there is no way in hell we can currently go even close to the sort on money needed to fund a successful programme.

Im still registered with a GP near my parents house as its a good GP and they are rare these days, however I have to pretend im living at my parents or they wont have me there. My wife and kids are registered locally which is convient but the GP isnt great. However they do know the family history and were involved in medicating my wife after the initial D-day.

So, when I went to my GP after D-day and the following year to try and get therapy for myself it was a nightmare, because im unemotional and calm the doctor just would not believe me and even with my wife there begging still didnt offer my therapy and just time off work. I had to give an oscar winning performance just to obtain therapy in the end.

So after talking with my wife I've decided to register locally and hope that by talking to the female doctor there and her knowledge of my wifes situation and heartache plus the violence and the police caution plus the kids in the house that she will be much easier to win around and hopefully recieve funding.

So will talk to local GP in an hour or so and as soon as Ive registered and the notes brought accross I can book an appointment and keep you updated from there.

Continue pursuing Anger Management therapy.

However -

I think we should discuss your nascent EA with the foreign exchange student. I am interested as to why you didn't bring it up if recovery from your AFFAIRS is important to you. Why you thought saying:


was enough to settle the issue.

Would you like to elaborate? Would you please explain to me how this behavior fits in with your plan for Extraordinary Precautions? Would you please detail how this behavior demonstrates to your wife you are a safe man to share her life with? Would you care to explain yourself?

I'm listening.

....The silence is deafening....


wait - y'all are in EEEngLaaaahhhnnnd...maybe it's the middle of the night.

No, Vibrissa, it's primetime over there right now. There's another reason, as you guessed.