I borrowed this from another Web Site on Infidelity. It sounded like the steps my FWW described to me as she explained her affair to me.

-----------------------------

This was a handout for a church group (the statistics are almost identical for church and non-church members when it comes to adultery and divorce) but it does a good job of defining how affairs develop for far too many people. The progression from friend to sexual intimacy and betrayal. It is provided in the hope that it will help newcomers to the forum gain some understanding of what has happened and how it could or might have happened.

Anatomy of Adultery
15 Steps of Unfaithfulness

How does adultery "happen?" People don't just decide one day to hop in bed and be unfaithful to their spouse. Adultery is the culminating act of a dozen or more tiny steps of unfaithfulness. Each step in itself does not seem that serious or much beyond the previous step. Satan draws a person into adultery one tiny step at a time. And he does this over time so that our conscience is gradually seared. This makes it easier to take "just one more step" thinking such a tiny step won't hurt us.

The following "15 steps" which analyze how adultery "happens" are based on scores of interviews, counseling, and correspondence with church folk who fell into unfaithfulness. Our question: "How did this happen... what were the tiny steps which led to this mess?" While the order varied from case to case, the following is the general progression which surfaced in most incidents. This is not some sort of theoretical list. These are the actual steps taken by scores of church people who wound up committing adultery and regretting it later. Some of these people sobbed deeply as they shared, hoping that their own pain and failure might save other marriages. This information comes to you at great expense.

This chapter doesn't have any preaching or analysis... that is left to you. Here we offer you cold word-for-word quotes. You and your Sunday School class can draw out the lessons. How did these lives get ruined? How does it start?


1. Sharing Common Interests.
"We just had so much in common, it was uncanny."

"She and I both enjoyed music, and we were attracted to each other."

"He was so spiritually-minded... I'd been looking for someone to share my spiritual struggles with."

"We both loved horses, and started riding together."

"We both shared a burden for the church and especially children's work."

"She was the first woman I'd ever met who liked the outdoors, even hunting and fishing -- I was fascinated!"


2. Mentally comparing with my mate.
"My husband wasn't interested much in spiritual things, but this man knew so much about the Bible."

"She was slim, attractive, and dressed sharp -- quite a difference from my wife who didn't take care of herself much at that time."

"She was so understanding and would listen to me and my hurts -- my wife was always so busy and rushed that we didn't have the time to talk.

"My husband just would never communicate -- he'd come home from work and just sit there watching TV. I finally gave up on him. Then this man came along who was worlds apart from my husband -- he was gentile, loved to talk, and would just share little things about his life with me."


3. Meeting emotional needs.
"He understood how I was feeling and offered me the empathy I was hungering for."

"She was there when I needed her."

"My ego was so starved for affirmation that I would have taken it from anyone -- I guess that's what started the whole thing."

"No one had ever really believed in me until he came along. He encouraged me, inspired me, and believed so deeply in what I could become."

"My wife was busy with the kids and not at all involved with my work. This girl admired me and treated me like I was really somebody. It felt so good."


4. Looking forward to being together.
"I used to dread going to work, but after we started our friendship, I would wake up thinking of how I would see him later that day... it seemed to make getting up easier."

"I would think of being with her the whole time I was driving to work."

"I found myself thinking of him as I got dressed each morning, wondering how he would like a certain outfit or perfume."

"I looked forward to choir practice every week because I knew he would be there."

"Every time I drove by her house I would think of her and how we'd see each other that Sunday."


5. Tinges of dishonesty with my mate.
"When my wife would ask if she was with the group I'd pretend I couldn't remember... right there I started building a wall between us."

"I would act like I was going to practice with our ensemble, but actually I was practicing a duet with him."

"Once my wife asked about her, but I denied everything, after all, we hadn't done anything wrong yet. Now I see that this was one of those exit points where I could have come clean and got off the road I was speeding down."

"Whenever we got together as couples I would act like I didn't care about him, and afterward I would even criticize him to my husband. I guess I was trying to hide my real feelings from my husband."


6. Flirting and teasing.
"I could tell from the way she looked at me. She would gaze directly into my eyes, then furtively glance down my body then back into my eyes again -- I knew then that she was interested in more than my friendship. But, I was so flattered by her interest that I couldn't escape."

"Then we started teasing each other, often with double-meaning kind of things. Sometimes we'd tease each other even when we were together as two couples. It seemed innocent enough at first, but more and more we knew it really did mean something to us."

"We would laugh and talk about how it seemed like we were "made for each other" so much. Then we'd tease each other about what kind of husband or wife the other one would have been if we'd married each other."

"He had those killer eyes. When he'd look at me in that "special way" I would just melt. It was hopeless fighting my urges -- he had me."


7. Talking about personal matters.
"We would talk about things -- not big things, just little things which he cared about, or I was worried about."

"We'd meet together for coffee before church and just talk together."

"I was having problems with my son and she seemed to understand the whole situation so much better than anyone else I talked with. I'd tell her about the most recent blow-up and she would understand so well. We just became really deep friends -- almost soul-mates. That's what's so weird about all this -- we never intended for it to go this far."

"I had lost my Dad just before we got to know each other and he had lost his mother a few years earlier. He seemed to understand exactly what I was going through and we would talk for hours about how each of us felt."

"I was so lonely since my husband died and hungry for someone to share life with. Then he began to call just because he cared. I loved hearing his caring voice at the other end of the line, even though I knew he was married."

"We spent so much time together at work that I swear she knew more about me than my wife ever did -- or even cared to know."


8. Minor yet arousing touch, squeeze, or hug.
"He never touched me for months. Then one night after working late, we were walking toward the door when he said 'You're so special, thanks for all you do..." then he turned and hugged me tenderly, just for a second. I loved how I felt for that moment so much that I began to replay it over and over again in my mind like a videotape. Now I know that I should have stopped it all right then. I never intended to ruin my family like this."

"She was always hanging around our house and was my wife's best friend. Often she would stay late to watch TV, even after my wife went to bed. She would sit beside me on the couch and I was drawn to her like the song says... like a moth to the flame."

"He would often pat me on the shoulder -- you know, in appreciation for a good job I'd done. But I knew it meant more than that."

"The first time she touched me was when we were doing registration together. We were sitting beside each other. I'd say something cute or funny and she would giggle, then under the table she'd squeeze the top of my leg with her hand. That was really exciting to me."

"Every time she shook hands with me at the door she seemed to linger, sort of holding my hand more than shaking it. No one else would notice, but I knew there was more to her touch than appeared to the eyes. She knew too."


9. Special notes or gifts.
"He would write these little encouraging notes and leave them in my desk, pocketbook, or taped to my computer. They didn't say anything which could be traced. If anyone found them they wouldn't suspect anything. But we both knew what was going on, we just didn't want to stop yet."

"I would sometimes call him and leave a short message on his answering machine. He would leave little notes in my Bible."

"He would buy me a little gift -- not that expensive, but it always showed he had taken extra thought to get exactly what I liked. Of course everyone else thought he was just being a good boss."

"She started leaving unsigned notes to me in my desk sharing her feelings for me. It scared me at first, because I thought someone would find one. But after a while I found myself looking forward to the next one, even though I knew the risk."


10. Inventing excuses to call or meet.
"I started figuring out ways I could drop off something at her house when her husband was gone. He and I knew each other and I would always return borrowed tools in the afternoon when I knew she'd be there alone."

"I would wait until the end of the workday then I'd call him just before closing time about something I'd made up as a 'business question' and we'd talk."

"The more entangled we got, the more I planned times where he and I could practice together. We started meeting more often."

"She started arranging her schedule so that her husband dropped her off at committee meetings. I would hang around and offer to take her home, acting with as much nonchalance as I could muster up."


11. Arranging secret meetings.
"By now we both were so far gone that we started meeting secretly at the mall parking lot. It know now how foolish this was, but I was driven by something other than good sense at that time."

"We started arranging to work evenings on the same nights, then we would leave early and meet each other in the dark parking lot."

"I started making sure he knew my travel schedule so we could attend the same conferences. We still weren't involved physically at that time, but there was such excitement and romance to it all... even the secrecy seemed to make it more exciting."

"She would sometimes call me just before lunch and we'd sneak through a drive-up together, and then spend the rest of my lunch hour talking quietly to each other."


12. Deceit and cover ups.
"Once we were meeting secretly I had to invent all kinds of stories about where I'd been to satisfy my wife. By now I had built a towering wall of dishonesty between us."

"Pretty soon my whole life was full of lies. I'd lie about where I was going, where I'd been, and who I'd been with. The more suspicious my husband got, the better liar I became. But he knew something was going on. It's hard to lie without people suspecting it."

"I joined several groups so that I would have an excuse to be away in the evenings."

"She would ask when I'd gotten off work. I'd simply lie about it, and she never knew what hit her. How can I ever regain her trust now?"

"We agreed that if anyone saw us driving around we would both tell the same story: that my car wouldn't start, he stopped to help, an we were going together to get a new fuse to replace the broken one he'd discovered."

"By now my whole life was a lie, so I began telling them regularly to cover up our little meetings."


13. Kissing and embracing.
"The whole thing seemed so exciting by now. I was such a fool. We were meeting secretly and both of us were fearful of being caught. But that only seemed to increase our common ground. When we'd meet, we would embrace as if we'd not been together for years -- like in the movies when someone comes home from the war."

"Once we started meeting secretly the end came fast. We kissed and hugged like two teenagers going parking for their first time."

"It just felt so good to be hugged and loved by somebody who really cared about me."


14. Petting and high indiscretion.
"At this point my glands took over. I forgot reason altogether and was willing to risk everything for more."

"It was like I was a teenager again -- going too far, then repenting and promising to do better; then just as quick I was hungrily seeking more sin."

"When my husband and I were dating we struggled with 'how far to go.' Well, here I was again struggling over the same issue. Friendship with this guy didn't seem so wrong. But now were we're going further than I ever intended. But, I felt curiously justified going exactly as far as I had with my husband when had been dating. In a way, I think some of my resentment against my husband's constant pressure on me started coming out. I'm not saying that it wasn't wrong. Just that I kind of felt justified."

"At about this time I began fooling myself into thinking I was heroic for not going "all the way." That's what I wanted to do. But by doing "everything but" I fooled myself into thinking I was successfully resisting temptation. What I didn't realize was that, not only was what I was doing wrong, but that eventually I would take the next step. It's just not possible to freeze a relationship -- you have to go ahead with it, or break it off totally."


15. Sexual intercourse.
"Soon I quit resisting and was swept into outright adultery."

"One thing led to another and finally we ended up in bed with each other."

"Though we never intended it to go that far, we eventually went all the way and had sex."

"One night we couldn't seem to stop ourselves (at least we didn't want to) so I completed my journey of unfaithfulness to my husband -- I had sex with this man."

1. Sharing Common Interests.
"We just had so much in common, it was uncanny."

"She and I both enjoyed music, and we were attracted to each other."

"He was so spiritually-minded... I'd been looking for someone to share my spiritual struggles with."

"We both loved horses, and started riding together."

"We both shared a burden for the church and especially children's work."

"She was the first woman I'd ever met who liked the outdoors, even hunting and fishing -- I was fascinated!"

2. Mentally comparing with my mate.
"My husband wasn't interested much in spiritual things, but this man knew so much about the Bible."

"She was slim, attractive, and dressed sharp -- quite a difference from my wife who didn't take care of herself much at that time."

"She was so understanding and would listen to me and my hurts -- my wife was always so busy and rushed that we didn't have the time to talk.

"My husband just would never communicate -- he'd come home from work and just sit there watching TV. I finally gave up on him. Then this man came along who was worlds apart from my husband -- he was gentile, loved to talk, and would just share little things about his life with me."

3. Meeting emotional needs.
"He understood how I was feeling and offered me the empathy I was hungering for."

"She was there when I needed her."

"My ego was so starved for affirmation that I would have taken it from anyone -- I guess that's what started the whole thing."

"No one had ever really believed in me until he came along. He encouraged me, inspired me, and believed so deeply in what I could become."

"My wife was busy with the kids and not at all involved with my work. This girl admired me and treated me like I was really somebody. It felt so good."

4. Looking forward to being together.
"I used to dread going to work, but after we started our friendship, I would wake up thinking of how I would see him later that day... it seemed to make getting up easier."

"I would think of being with her the whole time I was driving to work."

"I found myself thinking of him as I got dressed each morning, wondering how he would like a certain outfit or perfume."

"I looked forward to choir practice every week because I knew he would be there."

"Every time I drove by her house I would think of her and how we'd see each other that Sunday."

But, how many adults know about ENs unless they are familiar with MB?

Few, I suspect.



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5. Tinges of dishonesty with my mate.
"When my wife would ask if she was with the group I'd pretend I couldn't remember... right there I started building a wall between us."

"I would act like I was going to practice with our ensemble, but actually I was practicing a duet with him."

"Once my wife asked about her, but I denied everything, after all, we hadn't done anything wrong yet. Now I see that this was one of those exit points where I could have come clean and got off the road I was speeding down."

"Whenever we got together as couples I would act like I didn't care about him, and afterward I would even criticize him to my husband. I guess I was trying to hide my real feelings from my husband."

"No one had ever really believed in me until he came along. He encouraged me, inspired me, and believed so deeply in what I could become."

6. Flirting and teasing.
"I could tell from the way she looked at me. She would gaze directly into my eyes, then furtively glance down my body then back into my eyes again -- I knew then that she was interested in more than my friendship. But, I was so flattered by her interest that I couldn't escape."

"Then we started teasing each other, often with double-meaning kind of things. Sometimes we'd tease each other even when we were together as two couples. It seemed innocent enough at first, but more and more we knew it really did mean something to us."

"We would laugh and talk about how it seemed like we were "made for each other" so much. Then we'd tease each other about what kind of husband or wife the other one would have been if we'd married each other."

"He had those killer eyes. When he'd look at me in that "special way" I would just melt. It was hopeless fighting my urges -- he had me."

7. Talking about personal matters.
"We would talk about things -- not big things, just little things which he cared about, or I was worried about."

"We'd meet together for coffee before church and just talk together."

"I was having problems with my son and she seemed to understand the whole situation so much better than anyone else I talked with. I'd tell her about the most recent blow-up and she would understand so well. We just became really deep friends -- almost soul-mates. That's what's so weird about all this -- we never intended for it to go this far."

"I had lost my Dad just before we got to know each other and he had lost his mother a few years earlier. He seemed to understand exactly what I was going through and we would talk for hours about how each of us felt."

"I was so lonely since my husband died and hungry for someone to share life with. Then he began to call just because he cared. I loved hearing his caring voice at the other end of the line, even though I knew he was married."

"We spent so much time together at work that I swear she knew more about me than my wife ever did -- or even cared to know."

8. Minor yet arousing touch, squeeze, or hug.
"He never touched me for months. Then one night after working late, we were walking toward the door when he said 'You're so special, thanks for all you do..." then he turned and hugged me tenderly, just for a second. I loved how I felt for that moment so much that I began to replay it over and over again in my mind like a videotape. Now I know that I should have stopped it all right then. I never intended to ruin my family like this."

"She was always hanging around our house and was my wife's best friend. Often she would stay late to watch TV, even after my wife went to bed. She would sit beside me on the couch and I was drawn to her like the song says... like a moth to the flame."

"He would often pat me on the shoulder -- you know, in appreciation for a good job I'd done. But I knew it meant more than that."

"The first time she touched me was when we were doing registration together. We were sitting beside each other. I'd say something cute or funny and she would giggle, then under the table she'd squeeze the top of my leg with her hand. That was really exciting to me."

"Every time she shook hands with me at the door she seemed to linger, sort of holding my hand more than shaking it. No one else would notice, but I knew there was more to her touch than appeared to the eyes. She knew too."

9. Special notes or gifts.
"He would write these little encouraging notes and leave them in my desk, pocketbook, or taped to my computer. They didn't say anything which could be traced. If anyone found them they wouldn't suspect anything. But we both knew what was going on, we just didn't want to stop yet."

"I would sometimes call him and leave a short message on his answering machine. He would leave little notes in my Bible."

"He would buy me a little gift -- not that expensive, but it always showed he had taken extra thought to get exactly what I liked. Of course everyone else thought he was just being a good boss."

"She started leaving unsigned notes to me in my desk sharing her feelings for me. It scared me at first, because I thought someone would find one. But after a while I found myself looking forward to the next one, even though I knew the risk."

10. Inventing excuses to call or meet.
"I started figuring out ways I could drop off something at her house when her husband was gone. He and I knew each other and I would always return borrowed tools in the afternoon when I knew she'd be there alone."

"I would wait until the end of the workday then I'd call him just before closing time about something I'd made up as a 'business question' and we'd talk."

"The more entangled we got, the more I planned times where he and I could practice together. We started meeting more often."

"She started arranging her schedule so that her husband dropped her off at committee meetings. I would hang around and offer to take her home, acting with as much nonchalance as I could muster up."

11. Arranging secret meetings.
"By now we both were so far gone that we started meeting secretly at the mall parking lot. It know now how foolish this was, but I was driven by something other than good sense at that time."

"We started arranging to work evenings on the same nights, then we would leave early and meet each other in the dark parking lot."

"I started making sure he knew my travel schedule so we could attend the same conferences. We still weren't involved physically at that time, but there was such excitement and romance to it all... even the secrecy seemed to make it more exciting."

"She would sometimes call me just before lunch and we'd sneak through a drive-up together, and then spend the rest of my lunch hour talking quietly to each other."

Anyone have comments about this?

These steps kind of remind of being in the ocean where the shallow end gets considerably deeper a lot quicker than one expects. Step #1 is clearly the shallow end. And yes, Pep, we've all cooled off there from time to time.

12. Deceit and cover ups.
"Once we were meeting secretly I had to invent all kinds of stories about where I'd been to satisfy my wife. By now I had built a towering wall of dishonesty between us."

"Pretty soon my whole life was full of lies. I'd lie about where I was going, where I'd been, and who I'd been with. The more suspicious my husband got, the better liar I became. But he knew something was going on. It's hard to lie without people suspecting it."

"I joined several groups so that I would have an excuse to be away in the evenings."

"She would ask when I'd gotten off work. I'd simply lie about it, and she never knew what hit her. How can I ever regain her trust now?"

"We agreed that if anyone saw us driving around we would both tell the same story: that my car wouldn't start, he stopped to help, an we were going together to get a new fuse to replace the broken one he'd discovered."

"By now my whole life was a lie, so I began telling them regularly to cover up our little meetings."

These 15 steps are the exact path Wayzilla and Gollum took. To the letter.

13. Kissing and embracing.
"The whole thing seemed so exciting by now. I was such a fool. We were meeting secretly and both of us were fearful of being caught. But that only seemed to increase our common ground. When we'd meet, we would embrace as if we'd not been together for years -- like in the movies when someone comes home from the war."

"Once we started meeting secretly the end came fast. We kissed and hugged like two teenagers going parking for their first time."

"It just felt so good to be hugged and loved by somebody who really cared about me."

14. Petting and high indiscretion.
"At this point my glands took over. I forgot reason altogether and was willing to risk everything for more."

"It was like I was a teenager again -- going too far, then repenting and promising to do better; then just as quick I was hungrily seeking more sin."

"When my husband and I were dating we struggled with 'how far to go.' Well, here I was again struggling over the same issue. Friendship with this guy didn't seem so wrong. But now were we're going further than I ever intended. But, I felt curiously justified going exactly as far as I had with my husband when had been dating. In a way, I think some of my resentment against my husband's constant pressure on me started coming out. I'm not saying that it wasn't wrong. Just that I kind of felt justified."

"At about this time I began fooling myself into thinking I was heroic for not going "all the way." That's what I wanted to do. But by doing "everything but" I fooled myself into thinking I was successfully resisting temptation. What I didn't realize was that, not only was what I was doing wrong, but that eventually I would take the next step. It's just not possible to freeze a relationship -- you have to go ahead with it, or break it off totally."

WHAT!!!

15. Sexual intercourse.
"Soon I quit resisting and was swept into outright adultery."

"One thing led to another and finally we ended up in bed with each other."

"Though we never intended it to go that far, we eventually went all the way and had sex."

"One night we couldn't seem to stop ourselves (at least we didn't want to) so I completed my journey of unfaithfulness to my husband -- I had sex with this man."

The Wookie and VD, too.

Me neither. I have not ever been in step one either. Not even during the entire decade of the VLTA with all its meanness, LBs, being completely ignored and none of my ENs being met in the sligtest.

I wonder why Pep thinks I would have been in step one? Well, actually, according to MB theory I should have been all the way through the last'th step. Several times.

Is there something wrong with us?

These 15 steps are the exact path Wayzilla and Gollum took. To the letter.

The first time I read this post was just before I regestered here at MB and it made my blood run cold.

She kept all his little notes, cards and special emails in an envelope in a difficult to access pocket of her briefcase. It included little yellow post-its from Gollum with "Just thinking of you." and such crap.

The following "15 steps" which analyze how adultery "happens" are based on scores of interviews, counseling, and correspondence with church folk who fell into unfaithfulness.

WHAT!!!

You asked whether we knew any adult who had not been on step 1 and I answered that question. Good for me, I suppose, that I haven't been.

Maybe I'm not 'splainin' myself very eloquently here, but I'm just saying, for me, opposite sex interaction happens all of the time in #1. And it's in stage #1 where I evaluate the situation in terms of "safety" or "danger". Yes, SC, there are DEGREES of danger within Pep's #1. I'm just saying that we all hang in #1 to a certain degree because we ALL interact with the opposite sex throughout our days, and we are all HUMAN. It's our boundaries, personal experiences, scruples, values, political affiliations (okay, maybe not that one), that help us to take the detour away from #2.

Okay, I hope that's better. If not, keep chirpin' at me.

Thanks,
TB

It does not imply that we are all trolling deep for alternatives.

>PP was there waiting with open whatever.


EEEEWWWW!!!!!!!!!

I just got very skeeved out.

I'm just saying that we all hang in #1 to a certain degree because we ALL interact with the opposite sex throughout our days, and we are all HUMAN. It's our boundaries, personal experiences, scruples, values, political affiliations (okay, maybe not that one), that help us to take the detour away from #2.

why does me-thinks that you would notice that one line.

I can't say that I thought that the "sharing common interests" part was the danger; it was the conversation that was the danger. I saw anything other than two minutes of chit-chat as improper.

I can't think of any adult who has not breeched the first step.
Can you?

WHAT!!!

I'm surprised, Pep, that you characterise this first step as having happened to every adult you know, and I am just as shocked that TB says " we have all cooled off there from time to time".

Look, I have probably been a crappy wife for much of my marriage. I was probably okay at the job when I was happy but I know I didn't give much if I felt annoyed. I sulked, argued, lovebusted, did not show admiration when I could have...oh dear me, I'm getting red-faced so I am going to stop now.

However, I never, EVER "shared a common interest" with a man other than my H.

I have worked for most of the marriage. I don't work in a team; I do my own thing at my desk, but there are male colleagues in my building and I do talk to them. We say "hi, had a good Christmas?" "Yes, we all relaxed and ate a lot. You?" "Oh, us too. It was great." We say "where are you going on holiday?" " California, driving around." "Oh, we'd like to do that but we have small kids. Enjoy yours!" "You too!"

That's the level of it for me, and I don't think it qualifies as "sharing a common interest".

The quotes that follow step 1 suggest that the first conversation is taken a lot further than "Did you have a nice Christmas?"

1. Sharing Common Interests.
"We just had so much in common, it was uncanny."

"She and I both enjoyed music, and we were attracted to each other."

"He was so spiritually-minded... I'd been looking for someone to share my spiritual struggles with."

"We both loved horses, and started riding together."

"We both shared a burden for the church and especially children's work."

"She was the first woman I'd ever met who liked the outdoors, even hunting and fishing -- I was fascinated!"

I have painters and builders working in my house from time to time. They are almost always parents from my kids' school, who live in the streets near me. They are men. As I am at home a lot, I have often been alone in the house with these men whose kids and wives I know - i.e not strangers. We politely chat. I ask how the kids are. I ask how the wife is. We chat about the school fundraising event last weekend; wasn't it well attended! But I'm paying them to work, and I feel uncomfortable chatting to a man alone in my house, so I keep it to two minutes and then leave them to get on with it. I go out round the shops so I don't have to keep crossing paths and making stilted conversation. They never get to learn my views on spirituality! We never get to bond because I don't talk to men in ways that bond!

I do this consciously now, of course, but I did it instinctively before the affair and MB as well. I cannot be unusual. I'm not an angel; I was bad at being married before MB and I struggle to get better now, but I never did step 1. Surely I am not unusual.

So, my question is...am I the weird one? (Along with SC.) Do other people understand, but risk? Or just not understand?

TA

I can't say that I thought that the "sharing common interests" part was the danger; it was the conversation that was the danger. I saw anything other than two minutes of chit-chat as improper.

So, my question is...am I the weird one? (Along with SC.) Do other people understand, but risk? Or just not understand?

TA

1. Sharing Common Interests.
"We just had so much in common, it was uncanny."

"She and I both enjoyed music, and we were attracted to each other."

"He was so spiritually-minded... I'd been looking for someone to share my spiritual struggles with."

"We both loved horses, and started riding together."

"We both shared a burden for the church and especially children's work."

"She was the first woman I'd ever met who liked the outdoors, even hunting and fishing -- I was fascinated!"

TA - were you aware of the EN concept before you read any MB stuff?

I will not talk to a man about non-business issues unless there is a group present. Ever.

MB - I think we had the same alien.

The "loss" of my REAL husband during that time nearly drove me mad.

Yeah, but you know what? SHE didn't have our 'real' H either. Our 'real' H came back later, after the A. I take a lot of solace in that.

And I wish I could remember who wrote on another thread about that - I apologize for not being able to credit the poster! Anyone remember? (I knew I should have copied and saved that poem! )Words to the effect of the OW wanting the H, the one who was a great father, great H. But she never had him because he became someone else when the A began...wish I could remember...it's hell getting older...

SexyMamaBear.

I put it in the Notables thread.

TAKE PRECAUTIONS TO MITIGATE THE RISK.

Anyone on this board who maintains that they have never shared or discussed common interests with a member of the opposite sex is lying. You are here, on this board, sharing and discussing a common interest (surviving an affair) with member of both sexes - including those that are opposite to whatever you are!!!!

I can't think of any adult who has not breeched the first step.
Can you?

How do you walk from light to darkness? One step at a time

When you're naive, have never known anyone who's had an A, you just don't see the steps accruing. I know that sounds stupid and unbelievable (like, how on earth didn't you know what you were doing was wrong) it's how it happens.

Anyone on this board who maintains that they have never shared or discussed common interests with a member of the opposite sex is lying. You are here, on this board, sharing and discussing a common interest (surviving an affair) with member of both sexes - including those that are opposite to whatever you are!!!!

I know lots of intimate details about many fellow MBers.
Male and female.

This is perhaps a good time to raise the issue of those get-togethers that MBers have in the US. Why, why, WHY do you take this risk, of having mixed-sex meetings of people with a dynamite issue in common?

Why do some of you post your photographs? Why do you contact each other off-board, where opposite sexes are involved?

Perhaps my extreme caution in not doing any of this, tells me something about why I never got to step #1.

How do you walk from darkness to light?

Not one of you knows who I really am. Not one of you knows what I look like. I've revealed that I live in the south of England, which narrows it down to about 20 million people. Not one of you has ever met me. I have never posted my photograph. I reveal as little as possible that would identify me. I have never met up with another MBer, and I have no intention of ever doing so, unless I could guarantee I would meet only members of the same sex. (And you can't be sure what sex I REALLY am.)


Do you think this is by accident?

Or do you think maybe I've been careful?

I can't say that I thought that the "sharing common interests" part was the danger; it was the conversation that was the danger. I saw anything other than two minutes of chit-chat as improper.

It would be dangerous to talk comfortably, even if it was entirely one-way, without "common interest". My talking about my job to my builder. My talking about my schooldays. My talking about HIS marriage; I knew these men before they worked for me, so I could have done this, and did not.

Thank you for reminding us that seemingly innocuous conversation with the opposite sex, even if it isn't "intimate" conversation about common interests - anything more than two minutes of chit-chat - is dangerous and in most cases improper.

When I suggested this on a thread last week, I was crucified by many (including you, unless my memory is wrong) as radical and extreme. It may ruin your reputation, and you may find a way to reword your post to distance yourself from me, but I'm glad to see you agree with me.

I will not talk to a man about non-business issues unless there is a group present. Ever.

Which can do no damage to those MBers or to you unless you have real contact with the real people involved.

Do you ever go to mixed sex gatherings?

I have ENs that my husband is not well-equipped to meet - conversation, empathy, interest in the arts - and I am well aware of how easy it would be to let someone else meet those needs. So I don't let them, tempting as it is.

"Church folk".
People who thought they would NEVER have an affair.

People who did not recognize when their ENs were being met by an outsider.

This article was not written about the predatory OP ... it is a cautionary tale written for "good people" who might not recognize the slippery slope. (at first)

I have definite opinions on the sequel suggested above too. They don't involve a password protected cage, but they do involve humility, a change in thought and behavior, and a good dose of common sense. It sounds like it could make a pretty beneficial thread too.

This is going to sound strange, but I sometimes wonder if "church folk," the kind who on some level have an element of pride about their holiness, are MORE vulnerable because "they are above such things." I was a 26 year-old virgin when I married, for goodness sakes! DH was a minister when we married, I taught ladies Bible studies, I sang solos, I kept myself from temptation (really? seriously?). I mean, I would NEVER have sex with another man! Where are those verses that say "Pride goeth before the fall" and "Be careful when you think you stand, lest you fall."?

I truly believe that this list shows how we make those small choices every day, possibly not knowing what an impact they may have on our lives one day. In 2003, there was nothing wrong with me working on a grant with OM (fellow teacher) and the female principal. In 2004 there was nothing wrong with me asking OM to photograph our school performances. There was not even anything wrong with me asking how his trip to xxx for Christmas was or sitting at the same table in faculty meeting.

But all those times we went to arts seminars in the same car alone...STUPID. And this was waaay before any attraction/affair/anything. But STUPID! Going out w/him and a not-so-moral mutual friend to a "bar" a couple years before A.....STUPID. Then the stupdity progressed....enjoying his compliments too much, non-school related emails that were definitively too friendly - I don't mean tacking "good luck on your demo" at the end of an email about the winter music program decorations. I mean flirting about the hot outfit I wore to school - definitively too friendly. I won't go into the rest of the progression because it is so obvious, and I just ate.

Most couples whose marriages begin the way mine did make a crucial mistake -- they go their separate ways. He joins his friends in recreational activities he enjoys most and leaves his wife to find her own recreational companions for activities that interest her. That's a formula for marital disaster. If someone else of the opposite sex joins either of you in your favorite recreational activities, you are at risk to fall in love with that person. Besides, if you are not together when you are enjoying yourselves the most, you are squandering an opportunity to deposit love units.

Think about it for a moment in terms of the Love Bank. How much do you enjoy these activities, and how many love units would your spouse be depositing whenever you enjoyed them together? What a waste it would be if someone else got credit for all those love units. And if it were someone of the opposite sex, it would be downright dangerous.

The need for recreational companionship combines two needs into one. First, there is the need to be engaged in recreational activities and second, the need to have a companion.

Unless we are spending our most enjoyable time with our spouse we are making ourselves vulnerable.

I am now building the wall and EP and actually feel more comfortable this way.

You should only share your passions with your spouse. Not just the physical ones, but emotional, mental, recreational.... Passion for writing, singing, art, etc. can quickly turn into other passion.

You should only share your passions with your spouse. Not just the physical ones, but emotional, mental, recreational.... Passion for writing, singing, art, etc. can quickly turn into other passion.

Define 'share'. Define 'passion'.

If your spouse can't work up a fig of interest in, say, exercise of any description (or can't, for physical reasons), does this mean you should suppress your passionate desire to swim / run / cycle / whatever and just sit on the couch with said spouse?

If your spouse majored in mediaeval architecture and has a passion for exploring ancient European cities, while looking at old buildings is an activity you try to work up some interest in, but just can't...would you expect your spouse to suppress his/her enthusiasm and try to develop a mutual interest in gardening or something?

What effect do you think it would have on a person to be asked to suppress a passionate interest for the greater good of the marriage (assuming there's been no infidelity)?

Isn't this saying that, if there's anything you're passionately interested in, that your spouse is not, you should give it up immediately because you're putting yourself in the danger area? Or just go straight to honest divorce?

Seems to me there's something not entirely healthy in this argument.

TA

It's not feeling obligated to abandon those passions it's just pursuing them in a way that doesn't create undue risk.

Is your husband also well aware of these dangers?

So my question is...does having healthy and reliable boundaries, and being a trustworthy spouse, actually weaken your position after your spouse has been unfaithful?


TA

I remember in our youth group having a set of Bible studies about purity called "How Far Is Too Far?" We talked about how - up to a point - there is an element of personalization. For some, a nice long good night kiss would be fine. For others, even holding hands might incite too much passion (can you tell I am a good old conservative southern Baptist?). For some, discussing a great book in a group setting is fine. For others, they need to restrict themselves to same-sex groups. I think once someone has gone down the wayward road, the protections need to get stiffer. That's just my own standard.

Ha, Pep, you know what suddenly occurred to me?

The guy I went on the movie 'date' with? I don't see him socially, but I do see him in a business context every couple of months. H knows this; in fact I usually come home and tell him that Guy has recommended a movie or a band (Guy has very good taste. Guy is also very attractive.). The relationship has so many red flags, I don't know why H doesn't have fifty fits about it! But he never says a word. And I realise that I'm REALLY annoyed that he trusts me that far. I WANT him to express some fear or concern or anger...but nothing.

And I also recognise that I am to some extent keeping my paperweight on Guy, just in case I ever dump H and divorce. So I'm not that trustworthy after all.

Self-awareness, it's a b*tch.

TA

Letting someone make us feel good because it feels good is infidelity...

...(Infidelity) isn't a line at all, it's a direction and once we're going that way we are doomed to failure to protect our vows.

Self-awareness, it's a b*tch.

But you were here touting your methods of boundary-keeping and I want to discourage others from copying you. They are as weak as water, IMO. I've wanted to scream "NO, NO, NO! This is a ticket on the A Train!"

Why did Pepperband post the thread if not to prove a point?

What is anyone doing when they post, if not trying to prove a point?

In fact, I've wondered why someone hasn't accused her of being "insensitive" for posting a thread about how affairs start.

This is hurtful for BSs to come here and have to read this stuff and relive their nightmares, right?

At least that what I was told when I posted this thread a few weeks ago.

I've enjoyed (not sure enjoy is quite the right word)reading much of this thread but I hate to see good informative threads such as this degenerate into a vehicle that Ottert uses to prove his much laboured point that conversation can lead to an A.

We all accept that conversations can lead to an A. In fact I would imagine that 99.99999% of A's begin with a conversation of sorts. However, 99.99999% of conversations do not lead to A's beginning.

I think there's a danger of putting the cart before the horse here. By that I mean Ottert should be focusing on building a loving and mutually satisfying M in which EN's are met with enthusiasm in order to build romantic love.

Once romantic love is re-established and the EN for intimate conversation is met, then Mrs O will enthusiastically agree to place EP's around her conversations with OM and will become more aware of any weakness she has in that area. She will be enthusiastic about making sure Ottert feels safe.

Placing restrictions such as who a person can and can't talk to in a M must surely be construed as a LB'er if the couple are in withdrawal or conflict.

EP's are about a person having a plan that protects those they love.

Mrs O has to feel love for you to pland and apply the EP's to protect you. It is impossible to exert so much control over your spouse so as to force them into applying EP's unwillingly. EP's come from love not control.

If she isn't feeling "in love" with you, she is likely to see you as controlling and suffocating.

Feel free to ignore me Ottert, I seem to frustrate you but I do want your M to succeed and I can only see it succeeding if you focus all your energies on building your M rather than proving your point.

This thread is not about you.

I agree 100%. Now tell that to serendipitous and any others who make their entire post about ME.

Why is it that I am the only one using this thread to prove a point? Why did Pepperband post the thread if not to prove a point? What is anyone doing when they post, if not trying to prove a point?

In fact, I've wondered why someone hasn't accused her of being "insensitive" for posting a thread about how affairs start.

Please tell me why I can't discuss this topic with other posters? It's important to me. I feel I have something to say about it. TogetherAlone made points about EPs and boundaries with which I disagree, which I deem to be in direct contradiction to Dr. Harley's concepts on EPs.

She asked me what I thought she should do differently. I answered her.

If you don't like what I have to say, report the offending post to the mods or put me on ignore. But I don't appreciate the accusations of me ruining the thread every time I state an opinion or differ with a poster.

Be the one who stops.
Please.

Pep, I understand your point about the original article having been written for "church people". I did not read the article at first, but just your summary of it, which started at Step 1. Underneath the summary, you asked your question, which set me off!

Yet, as he said, affairs do happen among churchgoers. He was asking his group to look at their own behaviour and see how far it had gone.

Indeed. I apologise.

So in our case, the A seems to have started at step 13, gone on to 3, then 2, 5, 6 12 and 15. There must be others that have started like this????

You know, Pep, this really made me think. It's actually quite an important question.

Yes, he's well aware that these are problem areas...for me. I don't think he sees them as dangers, because they would only be dangerous (to him) if I allowed my needs to be met by others to the point where I left the marriage. And, in that, he's got absolute trust that my boundaries won't allow that to happen.

In other words, he's relying on my boundaries and self-discipline to protect the marriage, rather than mutual EN-meeting. As long as he gets all his highest ENs met, it doesn't matter to him all that much whether I'm happy or depressed or p*ssed. He can be pretty darned sure that I wan't spend hours on the phone with a male friend, moaning about the state of my marriage.



Every 'advance' we've made in this tortured process, has come about after his complacency has been jolted. Going out for a 'date'- most out-of-character for me - was a huge shock to him. Filing for divorce, when he thought that a good Catholic girl would never do that, shocked him. Pointing out that I'd have a good case for an anullment, so I could remarry in the Church, deeply shocked him.

He'd tended to assume that I would put up with low levels of EN-meeting, in order to honour my commitment to the sacrament of marriage, rather than to him as a partner of worth. If I were a person with shaky boundaries, who might well allow myself to get swept away by some chatty bloke with a passion for the novels of Ian McEwan, he'd work much MUCH harder at pleasing me, I'm sure.

So my question is...does having healthy and reliable boundaries, and being a trustworthy spouse, actually weaken your position after your spouse has been unfaithful?

TA

For those who think they score really well on these things, I would expect nothing less from the sample population we have here. We're a bunch of folks who understand this stuff at a level that few in our society comprehend.

Mark

The problem for me anyway is that i would have scored exactly the same pre-A as i did post-A. To me most of the MB principles are natural and always have been. I am afraid though that to those who it is not natural they have a hard time believing that just talking to someone of the opposite sex is a bad thing.

I guess I'm just hung up on the concept that talking with the opposite sex is a "bad thing".

Hey SC,

I was busy over the weekend, but did keep an eye on this thread because it is rather thought-provoking. I have to say, though, I struggle with the line of thinking -- specifically, about opposite sex talking is a "bad thing".

I know I've chimed in on this earlier, but when I think of something as being a "bad thing", I categorize it as something I take great measures to avoid. Driving 100 mph through a school zone. Taking a stroll through South-Central LA at 2am on a Sunday morning. Fertilizing the grass without liberally watering it afterwards. All "bad things". All things I really don't want to experience. All things that have a high likelihood of having a very negative outcome.

I guess I'm just hung up on the concept that talking with the opposite sex is a "bad thing". Look, I'm not saying I'm right or anyone else is wrong. The fact of the matter is I could be wrong. That's why I post, and that's why I listen to what others say, and really take it into consideration. I guess I just feel that if I start viewing opposite sex convos as bad things, when do I get to the point where I just start viewing the opposite sex IN TOTALITY as a bad thing. If talking to them is bad, why have anything to do with them?

I think that's a pretty sad way to go through life. I think crossing off half of the world's population as "bad" is an unhealthy way to go through life. Frankly, it's just not how I roll. BOTH sexes have tremendous value, and BOTH sexes have the ability to make my life a more fulfilling experience.

SC, I've already talked about mitigating risk, and the importance of taking precautions, so I think we agree in theory. I guess I just don't want to calibrate the safety bar as far out on the spectrum as some others. Maybe I should. I'm all ears, though.....

TB

very self aware of our individual danger zones

the concept that talking with the opposite sex is a "bad thing"

Maybe a "bad thing" is a poor choice of words but me personally i just have always steered clear of men in general. Me and my H have lots of couple friends that we hang out with as a couple but i just do not really talk to men openly about anything and have not since the day my h and i started dating.

And it is fine, i do not feel like i am missing out on anything, my life is full, i do not wish i could go to happy hour or wherever because i have missed out on so much. It does not bother me in the least and i find it a natural thing to do.

So i guess we just look at it differently because you do feel like you would be giving something up, i do not feel that way.

I acknowledge, I know when talking to a particular man is causing me to admire him more than I should. So, I then take steps to make sure that does not happen. I put up my own "stop" sign. Sooner rather than later.

And i also do not do anything social without my spouse, nor does he without me.

We have just found recreational things that we both enjoy and always do things together.

So neither of us are members of anything, so there is less likely of a chance of "connecting" with someone you share a passion with.....

I don't know anyone who would be okay with their spouse's weekly golf partner being of the opposite sex. That's 4-5 hours of Recreational Companionship with someone of the opposite sex who is not your spouse. Is that cool for a married person to do?



I'm betting Dr. Harley thinks that wouldn't be a good idea.

The one aspect of the steps that is not covered here is the change of interests that waywards frequently take in order to create the �We have so much in common� line.

Wayzilla suddenly had all new interests and taste in music and it of course was all Gollums.

She became a big Kid Rock fan (one of his favorites). That was a laugh. She was listening to a lot of music that DD (then 18) had already moved on from.

I remember one afternoon at a sports bar restaurant not far from when the EA probably became a PA and she was staring up at a TV behind me in rapt interest and a faint smile. I turn around to see what she was watching and it was pro rodeo. I said, �I didn�t know you liked rodeo.�

She replied, �Oh, I�ve always liked rodeo.�

Of course you would have thought I would have known that after 25-1/2 years together.

But. Um. You are here. Without your Husband. We both share a passion for MB. Doesn't inconsistency like this spell the inevitable desctruction of the world, via a black hole vortex of impossibility?

I've always like Dr. Laura, but this baffles me.

Though she says it's up to the writer of the letter to determine what they're comfortable with, it seems Dr. Laura is saying that married opposite sex friends doing things like playing golf together is fine with her, as long as "that's it".

I don't know anyone who would be okay with their spouse's weekly golf partner being of the opposite sex. That's 4-5 hours of Recreational Companionship with someone of the opposite sex who is not your spouse. Is that cool for a married person to do?

I'm betting Dr. Harley thinks that wouldn't be a good idea. I sure do.

Scald. (ETA: I see what you did there! )
I found the name-calling (Dr laura) to be inappropriate and in no way made this thread more useful.
I am so sorry you decided to post in that ugly tone.

The real trouble is that nobody really puts any thought into "what infidelity is" until it happens to them, aside from the obvious physical affairs.

In reality, emotional affairs can be just as painful and damaging. Many As (EA or PA) begin with "innocent" activities, such as playing golf together or working together. But lots of people work together or participate in recreational sports together - it certainly doesn't seem out of the ordinary. Only when you've been hurt by adultery can you really see how this stuff can be a "slippery slope".

On the flip side, not everybody who works together sleeps together, nor everyone who plays sports together or belongs to the same hobby club. Though adultery affects 60% (or some disgusting number like that) of marriages, most of these are probably one time events or one adultery-partner affairs (or at least one AP at a time). So it's not likely that the majority of people going to work are actively engaging in an affair, nor the majority of people on a golf course, nor the majority of people at any mixed event. In fact, the majority of them are doing what they do and then going home to their spouses. The ones that aren't have boundary issues.

Nobody has an affair because they play golf. Not even Tiger Woods. He would have an affairs even if he wasn't a celebrety. Do you honestly think golf caused him to be that way? Similarly, nobody has affairs because they go to work or because they participate in activities with members of the opposite sex. They have affairs because they have no boundaries. Boundaries aren't about never playing golf or never working with opposite sex coworkers. Boundaries are about how you guard your personal space - both physical space and emotional space. They are about guarding your own actions and words. They are about recognizing actions and words in others and guarding your own responses to them.

Now all that said, had I recovered my M I would make sure my FWS also eliminated whatever activity he was involve in where the affair began - be it golf, work, go online or whatever. Because once someone stepped into the wayward side, I would know their boundaries are weak at best.

9. Special notes or gifts.

Yes he did do this, however he said that in management classes they are encouraged to do this to, to encourage people. He takes was it depends on the intent and that it must be done publically. That if you email an atta boy/girl it should be sent to everyone, if you get someone candy or something it should be given in front of everyone.

What is everyone's take on this?????

Yes he did do this, however he said that in management classes they are encouraged to do this to, to encourage people. He takes was it depends on the intent and that it must be done publically. That if you email an atta boy/girl it should be sent to everyone, if you get someone candy or something it should be given in front of everyone.

What is everyone's take on this?????

Pep: Great idea!!

Tabby:

He has given special gifts in the past and received special gifts. However he won't admit that he did this. He also would by stuff to cheer up females when they were having a bad day(not the one in the EA) I was surprised after all we went through that he still felt this was ok to do.

However he won't admit that he did this. He also would by stuff to cheer up females when they were having a bad day(not the one in the EA) I was surprised after all we went through that he still felt this was ok to do.

[quote=Pepperband] HOwever now he is saying only if other people know about it. That what makes this wrong is doing it in secret.

I told him everytime he kids around with a female he is flirting. He agreed. But thinks that its ok to do but can lead to a slippery slope.

[quote=
((Raising hand))

I never did it (even before marriage) because I instinctively know that my romantic partner should be the only person of the opposite sex to share common interests / activities with. My parents were a great example of that. IMO, sharing common interests / activities with a member of the opposite sex builds bonds which threatens your romantic relationship.

It just always seemed obviously inappropriate to me that I should go rock climbing or to the Star Trek convention with JIM if I am exclusively dating John or married to Tom. It would be OK for me to do those things with other females though because the bonds formed there are different. I am not romantically attracted to females.

The same thing goes for discussing probs in the relationship with another male. Inappropriate bonds start to form.

Does that make sense?

*Thanks for the link Fred.

Not exactly. I am referring to the "seeking comfort" behavior that some people try to do with members of the opposite sex which leads to inappropriate closeness and bonded feelings.

This forum is awesome because we're all providing assistance to each otherand we really don't get to see each other, smell each others pheremones, share knowing glances, and share intimacies which are a threat to our marriages.

It's not the common interest sharing that is a threat to the marriage, it is the boundaries in which you conduct and protect yourself with while doing so.

Not exactly. I am referring to the "seeking comfort" behavior that some people try to do with members of the opposite sex which leads to inappropriate closeness and bonded feelings.

This forum is awesome because we're all providing assistance to each otherand we really don't get to see each other, smell each others pheremones, share knowing glances, and share intimacies which are a threat to our marriages.

((Raising hand))

I never did it (even before marriage) because I instinctively know that my romantic partner should be the only person of the opposite sex to share common interests / activities with. My parents were a great example of that. IMO, sharing common interests / activities with a member of the opposite sex builds bonds which threatens your romantic relationship.

It just always seemed obviously inappropriate to me that I should go rock climbing or to the Star Trek convention with JIM if I am exclusively dating John or married to Tom. It would be OK for me to do those things with other females though because the bonds formed there are different. I am not romantically attracted to females.

The same thing goes for discussing probs in the relationship with another male. Inappropriate bonds start to form.

Does that make sense?

*Thanks for the link Fred.

I'm sorry but all of you who say you never do it are here visiting a public, online BB with an anonymous name posting very personal information about your marriage and your spouse - all behind his or her back to boot!! I realize there's a good reason you are here, anonymously and without your spouse knowing, but nevertheless, you ARE doing it.

Especially here, where I know that any sign of flirting would DEFINITELY be shot down as inappropriate.

Talking to a group is different than confiding to a single member of the opposite sex. It's a lot harder to become romantically interested in a man if I'm talking to a group, rather than just that one man. Especially here, where I know that any sign of flirting would DEFINITELY be shot down as inappropriate.

...unless you slide into privately emailing each other...

I do not have male friends. Markos doesn't have female friends. I do not interact with men without Markos full knowledge. He doesn't interact with women without my full knowledge. I do not talk to men about my marriage unless Markos is involved. I certainly don't talk to men about my interests unless Markos is present and he and I are seen as a unit.

This is what makes the difference. Boundaries. A's can happen anywhere two people interact, unless there are boundaries.

Whoa! I wish I had a nickel for every story I've read on here about A's that started in online gaming and chat rooms.

And I want to know why I keep wishing for nickels and never get any...

I know that Internet Affairs are rampant and how they start, but I did not think that ths was that sort of place. Do people on this forum "hook up"?

I agree with Prisca, privacy and planning is required for an affair to blossom. I believe I said this earlier..."Sharing" in the true sense of the word is the key & that type of sharing deosn't happen here - at least not in my opinion.

Markos did start posting here without Prisca's knowledge & many of us do post here without our spouse's knowledge, but I don't think that's a bad thing because the ultimate goal is to bring our spouse's into MB and save our marriages.

This is the point I've been trying to make all along. You are only fooling yourself if you think you are not interacting with members of the opposite sex. You are. That's not the cause of the affair. The problem is with boundries. And boundaries are not as simple as a shopping list of things you don't do. If you believe this, then short of imprisoning yourself with no contact to the world whatsoever you will be "vulnerable" to an affair. If you are that bad, you probably shouldn't be married in the first place!

Boundaries come from within and guide you in HOW to do what you do, as well as how to protect yourself from others who may cross your boundaries, even inadvertently. Boundaries help us to maintain professionalism at work and keep our personal lives separate. Boundaries help is to avoid situations where we may be alone with members of the opposite sex. Boundaries also help us to deal with such situations if they arise through circumstance beyond our control, for example if your boss assigns you to an important project with an opposite sex coworker. You don't need to decline, especially if this could lead to a significant promotion or advancement. You just need to know how to protect your personal space and boundaries.

See, it's not enough to simply say you don't do X, Y, Z. Especially when, technically speaking, you actually DO do all 3 but you do it with an "innocent" intent. It isn't the specific act of these things at all that define the boundary. It is your ATTITUDE and APPROACH to these acts. With the workplace example, simply keep all discussions to business - as you should be doing anyway to maintain your professionalism in your job! And if the coworker should step into your space uninvited, politely asked him or her to step back. It's not rocket science.

I bet if you asked all the former waywards on this board if they planned their affair they would deny it.

I know that Internet Affairs are rampant and how they start, but I did not think that ths was that sort of place. Do people on this forum "hook up"?

Ok...So is it right or wrong to be here sharing details about our marriages like this?

I think this is a good place, and I don't see people here torlling for treats. I just don't understand why anyone would think this place equates to meeting a person of the opposite sex one on one and sharing, becoming attracted... emotionally disconnecting from our spouses to get closer to someone here...exactly what is needed for an affair.

That list Pep posted - the 15 ways affairs get started doesn't apply here IMO.

I don't know of any MBers that "hooked up" but honestly, Chris, I would think this place would be a minefield for that. Most of us come here as newly betrayed spouses in incredible pain and grief. To say we are "vulnerable" is an understatement, and everyone who found this place before you understands your situation far better than people in real life do. Though the grand majority are here learn how to save their marriages and are flat out NOT interested in beginning their own affair, revenge affairs have been known to happen. And many of us don't save our marriages and at some point, could come to realize that fellow MBers who are also losing the battle have more in common than their real life friends. Honestly, I don't know if it does, but I can see it happening.

Ok...So is it right or wrong to be here sharing details about our marriages like this?

That list Pep posted - the 15 ways affairs get started doesn't apply here IMO.

I believe it is for exactly the reason that the potential for this kind of thing could happen here is why the ability to send PMs to other posters has been turned off.

Private messages between posters either have to go through the moderators or people have to post their email addresses publicly.

Well, I guess I'm the exception. I actually hooked up with someone from here, but no worries. It's over now and it's all good. Wanna know who?

There is nothing so special or holy about any one of us. We're all wired to cheat. Although I must say that the possibility of it happening here is probably a little lower than the general population.

But consider this scenario: two sad and lonely people of the opposite sex come here to get help for their failing marriages. As they post, they are startled by how similar their situations are. They learn as they post that they are from the same state. They enjoy the same sports/pastimes, that their respective WS do not. One of them is a verbiose joke-teller by nature and that feeds the other one's EN for humor and conversation. The other one is very athletic, unlike joker's WS, and just loves to play golf. Joker is happy about that because HE loves to play golf, too, and his W always hated for him to play! Athletic Poster says she'd love to play with her H, but he hates golf.(Recreation EN.)Hmmm...

Do you see where this could go? These are all things that come out about us as we post and get to 'know' each other, and grow fond of each other in that weird, anonymous internet way.

The very first reply to me ever was a woman offering me sympathy and saying "My husband treats me like your wife treats you." And my immediate reaction was: "What good is this site going to be to me? I need solutions, not bonding and sympathy. If anything that kind of thing is dangerous."

First thing my wife thought a month or two later when she first read my posts, too.

If I didn't, I don't think I could ever follow the MB principles without being able to agree with one of the MAJOR concepts behind DrH's writings. I would also not be able to recover(if my WH pulls his head out of his A$$ in time) my M if I didn't believe that this is a part of all of us but that we can put up road blocks to stop it.

We are all wired for affairs. The only people who are exempt are those who are utterly incapable of meeting someone else's emotional needs. If you can't meet anyone's needs, no one will ever fall in love with you. But if your spouse has anything to offer others, and you are not meeting an important emotional need, commitment to "forsake all others" can become words without meaning.

I have been rereading some of the items on the site again(because the first time around I was foggy).


I thought it might add something to the discussion.

If the only people who are exempt are those who are incapable of meeting the needs of someone else ....
Could the people who are VERY MOTIVATED or VERY TALENTED when it comes to meeting the needs of others be MORE capable of an affair?

People who are self-identified "people pleasers"?
People who are "helpers" or "rescuers" by nature?
People who feel the most good about themselves when they are in the "giver" mode?

MORE capable? Yes. Absolutely.


Yes, yes, and.....yes.

The person who fits this profile better fortify his or her boundaries, big-time.....


TB

The entitlement aspect is an interesting hook, though.

Pep

In your own profession, what about Nurses and NP types and their relationships?

Larry

Hmmmmm this is really interesting Pep. Thanx for making the brain juices work overtime today.

The OW in my sitch is definitely a predator who researched my WH. It started with little stuff -- showing up at the same events, looking for financial advice from my banker H, needing some "help" with her business. In the beginning, WH shared some of OWs strategies. That OW was "impressed" how WH wasn't like other guys. How there was no "crossing the line" at the beginning. How WH "respected her" by not trying any funny business.

Then, after they became "friends" and a little too much alcohol one night -- BAM -- it just sorta happened. She put the bait in the water, waited for a few nibbles, then set the hook. And since he hadn't been caught before, he bit hard.

Look, let's consider what characteristics are typical 'initial attractants' in each gender to members of the opposite sex:

Men are attracted initially to a woman overwhelmingly VIA LARGELY VISUAL INPUTS. They see/meet a woman who is (seemingly or real) dressed alluringly, has nice hair, nice makeup, a pretty face, a great smile, a sexy figure, etc., and boom...she is someone they are drawn to and incentivized to engage with banter, conversation, flirtation, etc. It is no secret that a woman who naturally has feminine sex appeal is likely to get extra male attention. Don�t believe me? How often does the male dentist have a relationship (legit or affair) with the shapely gal at the gym rather than the frumpy or homely assistant?

Yeah, but you know what? SHE didn't have our 'real' H either. Our 'real' H came back later, after the A. I take a lot of solace in that.

And I wish I could remember who wrote on another thread about that - I apologize for not being able to credit the poster! Anyone remember? (I knew I should have copied and saved that poem! )Words to the effect of the OW wanting the H, the one who was a great father, great H. But she never had him because he became someone else when the A began...wish I could remember...it's hell getting older...

...he would lay in bed all day long, and I think it was to try to get me to get angry with him....

Soul-crushing depression falls on waywards, too. In fact, it's one of the things that can begin to drive the wedge between WS and AP when you enter Plan B.

I think my WW is too prideful and stubborn for my Plan B to have this type of affect on her. She has told me that there is nothing I can do to steal her happiness.

I will say that I found and interesting quote the other day while studying scripture:

One will never find in sin what they go into sin to find.

I just thought that was so relevant to my situation as well as many others here.

Women are attracted initially to a man overwhelmingly VIA DISPLAYS OF SOCIAL PROWESS & POWER. They see/meet a man who displays (seemingly or real) charm, charisma, authority, confidence, leadership, etc., and boom�he becomes as a person of interest beyond the ordinary whose attention she is more likely to indulge. It is no secret that a man with some alpha-male qualifications will find women willing to talk with him. Don�t believe me? How often does the female office secretary have a relationship (legit or affair) with the HEAD BOSS rather than the lowly janitor?

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

I posted this at the end of a long thread, but I really wanted it to be more visible. So, I'm beginning a new thread with it:

I think I should have included an address to mw77, as my reply was in response to her post justifying adultery.

I don't always understand why and how it is so easy to sweep aside the wisdom provided to us in the form of God's commandments. It's really pretty easy, love God with all your heart, etc., and love your neighbor as yourself. But, he knew we would sin and we continue to, as evidenced by the condition of this world he gave us. I am no exception.

Let's think about our neighbor for a minute. Do we know if he or she is good or evil? Do we know what his or her strengths or weaknesses are? Do we know where they've been wounded? Neglected? Abused? Do we know how well they've been loved? Do we know what went into creating them to be who they've become? Do we know how they're being treated presently? Really?

I'm pretty sure that God's commandments were given to us to keep us from making bad mistakes in our ignorance. The commandment not to commit adultery is one of the most misunderstood, most abused that comes to mind. It's so bad that most states don't care about it anymore, because it clogs the courts. So, they opt to simply look out for the welfare of the children as the main goal in divorce.

My own experience with all sorts of people in all sorts of roles is that PEOPLE DON'T CARE ABOUT ADULTERY. They do it, they excuse it, they use it like an addiction, they ignore it, they justify it. Mainly, from what I've seen, they use it to PUNISH.

Well, 'Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I will repay.' (condensed). So, if you are a terrible marriage partner or if you have one, figure out how to solve or exit your situation morally. Otherwise you're putting yourself above God and you're scrambling and corrupting the world around you.

God isn't against divorce, he did it himself. He divorced his people Israel. Divorce isn't a sin, but adultery is and always will be.

You know what adultery does to the betrayed (however evil you might believe them to be)? It robs them of the opportunity to learn and grow in a safe, non-abusive environment. It pays evil for evil. If married people take the time to learn why their marriage isn't working, whether they plan on staying together or not, the person doing the most hurting has the opportunity to be confronted with the threat of divorce, before they become abused by their mate with their replacement. I always picture someone beating the crap out of another with their lover. They have a safe environment to examine themselves and an opportunity to change. I don't think anyone grows up desiring to be "the evil one" (serial murderers and the like being the obvious exception). The whole idea behind counseling is to reveal feelings of a desire to divorce, so that the other person can see the nature of their "fruit" in life and can change their hearts.

What good does it do to just dispose of people? Because, the attitude, from what I've seen, of the people who do this sounds something like this, "they've reaped what they've sown", "they get what they deserve", "someone else will have to love them", "they're not my problem anymore". Speaking from experience, being sent the message that I'm somebody's discards, somebody's refuse, somebody's trash didn't do me any good at all. I didn't marry to be thrown away. I married to love and be loved. And love sometimes means being corrected, being revealed, being taught lessons. I am abused when I am not rebuked. And I abuse when I don't rebuke. Marriage is supposed to be a safe environment within which we become better people and manifest the love of God. I didn't offer my heart to another person to eventually be judged and condemned and none of us do. That's what adultery is... judgment and condemnation.

I know I did things wrong in my own marriage. In those things I was ignorant. Who of us knows how to 'do' marriage right from the beginning? Who of us has just the right counselors and support networks of family and friends to give us just the right advice just when we need it? If a problem persisted in my own marriage, it was because either I wasn't told there was a problem, or I didn't understand. I rely on my partner to work with me until I do understand.

As empathetic and as compassionate as I may be, it is impossible for me to know exactly what another person is feeling. I am completely dependent on their ability and willingness to tell me in a way that's meaningful to me, to teach me, to use correct metaphors, whatever. Screaming, yelling, passive-aggressiveness and violence are not effective forms of communication. Adultery is passive-aggressive. It is the ultimate in passive-aggressive where marriage is concerned.

mw77, it sounds like your mate was married to a deeply wounded person who probably only learned how to cope with her emotions using passive-aggression. But, she has value and is valuable to God. I wonder how she would have responded if he had said to her, "honey, I just don't understand what I've done wrong by your silence. I want us to be happy. I need more information to know how to love you. Can you try expressing what made you angry? Then I will know not to do that again and I'll feel a lot better knowing how happy I can make you (not to mean that he was at fault, but humility opens doors to knowledge)." Or, "you know physical affection in the form of sex or lovemaking is normal and healthy and a necessary part of a happy marriage. I don't know if I can stay married to you, because I am deeply lonely and frustrated. God made us to be together in that beautiful way and I would like to see if we can safely remove the obstacles that may exist so that we can have a safe and deeply fulfilling marriage." Or, "honey, your words hurt me deeply. They aren't true. But, it sounds like something hurt you or you wouldn't be lashing out like that. Will you please try to help me understand? I want you to be happy and if I'm missing the mark I truly want to know and to correct myself." Or, "let's get help to learn how to make each other really happy, because I love you and I want you to have the best and I surely would love it too."

If anyone is ridiculed after that, they can leave in good conscience. Not for another woman or man, but by themselves. The reason they ended up there in the first place is half their fault. There's something wrong with them. To begin another relationship before learning those things just isn't wise.

So wm77, let me ask you this. If you had been his ex-wife and you lived terrified, behind a curtain of defensiveness, shame, whatever, wouldn't you want God to reach deeply into you to heal you and bring you the love you need? Or, would you want someone to waste 30 years of your life then beat you up with their lover? Wouldn't it be far more compassionate to leave after, say, year 3? Year 7? Year 14? Leaving you something of your life? Even if only to jar your senses and wake you up? Then, if a lover isn't in the picture, imagine the possibilities for healing and for love where little or none existed before. EVEN IF THEY DON'T STAY TOGETHER.

In my heart and in my mind, it just isn't very productive to beat the crap out of anyone with your lover. THAT IS THE EXPERIENCE OF ADULTERY. That is how it feels to be replaced without being brought to understanding first. It makes you feel like defective trash. Period. It is completely unproductive PUNISHMENT.

There's a big difference between rebuke, discipline and punishment. Adultery=Punishment=Vengeance.

OR, it was moments of clarity in which he knew the gravity of what he was stooping to.

Soul-crushing depression falls on waywards, too. In fact, it's one of the things that can begin to drive the wedge between WS and AP when you enter Plan B.

Taking that first step that "crosses the line" .....

HOW does the wayward say...

"It just happened."
"It was not planned."

??????

I hope this thread helps to explain "how" that first step can seem innocent .... until it isn't.