Is Marriage Builders "marriage at all costs?"

hat tip to Barnboy for transcribing this from Dr Harleys' video.

Originally Posted by Barnboy

While I'm saddened that you see no hope for your marriage after this betrayal and lying about it, I sincerely empathize. In fact, Dr. Harley does, too. Here's what he has to say from the last few minutes of his free Infidelity Video :

Originally Posted by Dr. Willard Harley

When I first started doing this, I could not imagine anybody getting over it. Now, there are a lot of people that have told me that they haven't gotten over it. Thirty years has gone by, and they haven't gotten over it. But they haven't gone through the procedure I recommend, either.

The people that have gone through this procedure that I recommend HAVE gotten over it. And to me it's the most amazing thing that you can go through the worst experience of your life -- somebody hurting you in the worst way possible -- and, two years later, you love the guy, you trust the guy, you forgive the guy, you never wanna lose the guy.

To me, that's amazing.

It's what love is all about. It's what male-female relationships are all about. And when you do things the right way, you can restore a relationship even when a professional like me looks at it and thinks it's hopeless.

I got a procedure that works even when I think it's hopeless!

Even when I don't think... "I think you oughtta' leave the guy! What a jerk!"

"No, I don't really wanna leave the guy. Tell me what I can do to save the marriage."

"Well, OK, I'll give you some help."

So, you know, this is what I do. I do this for a living. I help people solve problems where I'm not always convinced that they oughtta' be solved.

But I know how to solve 'em. This is the way... this is the way do it.

If a person says "I don't want to save my marriage", I'd say "I agree! You have no argument with me! Your spouse did something that, from my perspective, is the most disgraceful thing imaginable. If you wanna leave him for that, you have my blessings."

But people have come to me and said "I want you to help me save my marriage."

"OK, I can do that, too. This is how to do it."

But it's a very narrow road, and I don't know of another way that can be accomplished. I don't know of another way. You can never see or talk to the [affair partner]* again, you're gonna go through a period of withdrawal that's, that's, that's a little bit ugly, and then you're gonna have to learn how to achieve these three goals in your marriage:

You're gonna have to learn how to make all of your decisions with each other in mind.

You're gonna have to learn how to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.

And you're gonna have to learn how to meet each other's emotional needs.

*Dr. Harley says 'spouse' here in the video, but it's obvious he means the affair partner, who most often is married him or herself

The sneaky part about the "plan" to save it is...

That if it doesn't work it really leads the BS to the healthy rational decision to divorce as well as a leading to a healthier recovery from such divorce KNOWING they took proactive ACTION to try to save it and did all they could. There's no need for second guessing...it's over and there's nothing MORE they could have done or done differently to effect saving it.

In my years here I can't recall a BS that came here, that had steadfastly applied and implemented the plans only to end up divorced whom REGRETTED trying and using MB. Even some of the worst cases I've helped, like Heartsore, who likely would have gotten a better custody award if he had just played ball with his WW at the very beginning...even he told me on the phone recently that he doesn't regret "trying" and using MB for one second. The potential consequences of trying was worth the risk...even though he lost a lot of time with his children in the end.

IMO, whether or not you actually save your marriage...you are better off for having been here.

Mr. Wondering

pssst....would that be Heartsore?

That is an excellent point, MrW! Most of those who jumped to divorce soon regret it because the emotions that drove them to that decision soon evaporate and they find themselves living with a permanent decision based on temporary feelings. Thats why I tell people to NOT make any decision while under duress.

For me personally, jumping to divorce in my last marriage was the right decision mainly because I don't have the personality to endure plan A. While I think my marriage could have been saved using MB concepts, I know myself well enough to know that I could not have endured Plan A without murdering him.

Good point, Mr W. I feel I did all I could do, essentially doing a Plan A and Plan B to no avail. Now, I can tell myself that I tried and I can tell my kids the same thing.

I wonder if there could be a good checklist of things a BS could look at re pre-A abuse and behaviors that would aid in making the decision whether to try the plans in the first place.
I think if you have a spouse that has a history of cheating and promiscuity, a history of overspending and bad credit, verbal,physical or emotional abuse, a poor job history, you should run asap.

Quote

You're gonna have to learn how to make all of your decisions with each other in mind.

You're gonna have to learn how to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.

And you're gonna have to learn how to meet each other's emotional needs.

And, if you divorce your adulterous spouse, hoping to catch a better relationship "next time" .... you STILL better learn how to do these things.

Which is a lot harder than "moving on", or "getting closure", or watching the WS get run over by "the karma bus".

If a BS is too lazy to learn the above marriage skills, the "karma bus" just might roll over you in your future relationships.

Originally Posted by Pepperband

Quote

You're gonna have to learn how to make all of your decisions with each other in mind.

You're gonna have to learn how to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.

And you're gonna have to learn how to meet each other's emotional needs.

And, if you divorce your adulterous spouse, hoping to catch a better relationship "next time" .... you STILL better learn how to do these things.

Which is a lot harder than "moving on", or "getting closure", or watching the WS get run over by "the karma bus".

If a BS is too lazy to learn the above marriage skills, the "karma bus" just might roll over you in your future relationships.

Assuming you did not already have these skills and had not tried to implement these policies in your marriage to the cheater. I would bet that many BSs were considerate and communicative in the first place, only to keep running into a brickwall.

Exactly what I was thinking Pep.

Even if the marriage isn't saved...

If you learn these concepts and put them to action...

YOU have come out a BETTER person!!

Originally Posted by Zelmo

I wonder if there could be a good checklist of things a BS could look at re pre-A abuse and behaviors that would aid in making the decision whether to try the plans in the first place.
I think if you have a spouse that has a history of cheating and promiscuity, a history of overspending and bad credit, verbal,physical or emotional abuse, a poor job history, you should run asap.

This is irrelevant to recovery, Zelmo and Dr Harley does not tell people to "run asap." What really matters is the WS' willingness to change and commit to the marriage. A "history" can't be changed, but the PRESENT and the future CAN be changed.

We have marriages that were WORSE than what you describe that were turned around using this program. The key is understanding that a BS cannot change a WS, but a WS can change himself if he wants.

I agree, Mel. If the Ws takes responsibility for these deviant behaviors and undertakes to change them, I think they deserve a chancve.It's just like alocoholics. Some will do the work. Most will not.

Originally Posted by Nerlycrzy

Exactly what I was thinking Pep.

Even if the marriage isn't saved...

If you learn these concepts and put them to action...

YOU have come out a BETTER person!!

I agree.

Originally Posted by Zelmo

I agree, Mel. If the Ws takes responsibility for these deviant behaviors and undertakes to change them, I think they deserve a chancve.It's just like alocoholics. Some will do the work. Most will not.

MB does have a PLAN for those who won't. But many DO get on board with the plan, so if everyone ran based on history, they would never know that.

I don't know about "many" getting on board. But, even it it is the minority, it makes sense to try.

However, one needs to draw a timeline, so as not to endure this crap too long.

Originally Posted by Zelmo

I don't know about "many" getting on board. But, even it it is the minority, it makes sense to try.

Well, we don't know how many affairs are busted up, but we do know that many can be saved. Some can't, but one won't know unless they try.

This plan seems to make more sense to me than any other "plans" I have read about. Obviously humans are humans, so no plan is foolproof. It defintely takes work - lots of diferent kinds of work. That is one thing that I am seeing more and more. If I had not been willing to WORK and CHANGE, there is no doubt in my mind I would not have a H right now. That is not said to build up anything about me - I didn't do everything right, and the BEST thing would have been not cheating to begin with. H did work too - even though he was the victim. I say was because he would not like me sayin he IS the victim. I think his view on the A has also been key.

I have never seen this as a marriage at all costs site because that just isn't realistic. However, it is important I think to look at the top of the page and see that it does read Marriage Builders - not hate builders, not biterness builders, not slam builders, not zing builders, not adultery builders, not physician buiders - Marriage Builders.

Originally Posted by Pepperband

Quote

You're gonna have to learn how to make all of your decisions with each other in mind.

You're gonna have to learn how to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.

And you're gonna have to learn how to meet each other's emotional needs.

And, if you divorce your adulterous spouse, hoping to catch a better relationship "next time" .... you STILL better learn how to do these things.

Which is a lot harder than "moving on", or "getting closure", or watching the WS get run over by "the karma bus".

If a BS is too lazy to learn the above marriage skills, the "karma bus" just might roll over you in your future relationships.

AGREE....AGREE....AGREE....

One of the best things I ever walked away from in reading SAA (this was PRIOR to finding these boards.....), was Dr. H confirmation to what I already KNEW....that "I" needed to change......which, for me, was much more important than my H needing to change....

not2fun

My two cents:

The subject line asks if MB is "marriage at all costs." I submit it is not. However, it is about building or rebuilding marriages into something stronger -- when both parties commit to it.

And then, the success rate is phenomenal. As Dr. Harley and others have said, no other program has been shown to be as effective as Marriage Builders as long as the marriage couples work on it.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. MB is not about marriage at all costs. It's not even for all marriages as far as I can tell. It's really for those people who want to commit to a marriage and the work the Marriage Builders plan requires.

Perfectly said, Fred!

Nowhere does MB assert it can FORCE someone into a marriage against his/her will.

Originally Posted by Fred_in_VA

It's really for those people who want to commit to a marriage and the work the Marriage Builders plan requires.

EGG ZAK LEE

Originally Posted by Pepperband

Quote

You're gonna have to learn how to make all of your decisions with each other in mind.

You're gonna have to learn how to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.

And you're gonna have to learn how to meet each other's emotional needs.

And, if you divorce your adulterous spouse, hoping to catch a better relationship "next time" .... you STILL better learn how to do these things.

Which is a lot harder than "moving on", or "getting closure", or watching the WS get run over by "the karma bus".

If a BS is too lazy to learn the above marriage skills, the "karma bus" just might roll over you in your future relationship.

Amen Pep! My marriage is over. However, I have learned sooooo much in the past year. I've grown soooo much. I never worked harder on anything in my life. Recovering my marriage consumed my entire being for over five months... unfortunately there were other skeletons in her closet...more lies. I had enough.

This site and the wonderful people here really helped me become the person I am today. As great as the peeps here have been, they pale in comparison to my IC! She is an amazing, insightful and wise person...and she pulls no punches. Kicks me in the head when I need it, listens attentively at other times. GREAT!

I move forward one day at a time, taking care of my Chickas and myself (and my pooch...).

Someone asked me once if I would change the past given the chance. My response: No Way! My past, however painful, makes up the person I am today. My past was a "whole lot of suck", but it's my past...the past that shaped me, challenged me, pushed me to examine, learn and grow.

LG out.

Sorry...logged in as "DNU1" instead of "Lawfulgood"

Glad to have read this thread! I think the stats go against my marriage being recoverable, but I at least need to try. I need to know I did everything I knew how to do and that my kids know it as well. And I think you are right - WORST case scenario is I emerge a stronger person through it all. That is a downside risk I am willing to take! Thanks for your posts!!!

Originally Posted by Derrah

Glad to have read this thread! I think the stats go against my marriage being recoverable, but I at least need to try. I need to know I did everything I knew how to do and that my kids know it as well. And I think you are right - WORST case scenario is I emerge a stronger person through it all. That is a downside risk I am willing to take! Thanks for your posts!!!

Thing you have to really ponder, I mean REALLY think long and hard about is just how long and to what extent you are willing to try and recover your marriage(?).

I still get peeps on this forum hinting that i should give my STBxWW another chance. I appreciate the optimism, but for me, in my case, I had simply had enough and could no longer remain married to her.

Bottom line is this: You get to make decisions about your life and I get to make decisions about mine. I wake up every morning and look at my own reflection in the mirror...And I'm damn proud of the man I have become.

Originally Posted by LawfulGood

I still get peeps on this forum hinting that i should give my STBxWW another chance. I appreciate the optimism, but for me, in my case, I had simply had enough and could no longer remain married to her.

A few years ago, my brother's brother-in-law awoke Easter morning to the sounds of his daughter yelling loudly at her newly found easter basket. They asked her what she was doing and she said "giving a shout out to my peeps".

Anyway, Derrah...read up on the Plans and read up on boundaries (vs. manipulation/control). Once you get into your plan A, try to set an end date and get an idea of the circumstances which will predicate your Plan B. Plan D, if that is to be the end result will then become a natural rational decision you'll get to...in due time.

I, too, thought my situation in 2005 was pretty hopeless. "Odds" are pretty tough to figure this early as some of the most savable seeming situations that have arrived here didn't make it and the most outlandish ones have. There's almost always hope but hope alone won't save it...which is why you implement "a plan".

Mr. Wondering

Great thread. Very timely for me.

Linus

Originally Posted by Pepperband

Originally Posted by MrWondering

In my years here I can't recall a BS that came here, that had steadfastly applied and implemented the plans only to end up divorced whom REGRETTED trying and using MB.

Mr. Wondering

No regrets here. I only wish I knew two years ago what I know now. If I could go back, the exposure would be so much more nuclear.

TE

Thanks for the bump Pepperband.

As a BS Sometimes coaching and dealing with the A's (one was admitted and the 2nd one with OM #2 has still not been), sure makes it feel like Marriage at All Costs for me. But then I am a weakling.
Still, every couple of weeks I see some small change that gives me hope. In my case, it is still worth at All Costs. But it is far from a landslide vote.

Me BS 57
She WW 50
Hers 18, 23
Mine 23, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 (OM #2) - October 15 2009
WW admitted OM #1 on Feb 1, 2010 (our anniversary) - He died!
Exposed February 22, 2010
WW won't admit OM #2 still despite lots of evidence. Hopefully its over.
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).

Originally Posted by Pepperband

Quote

You're gonna have to learn how to make all of your decisions with each other in mind.

You're gonna have to learn how to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.

And you're gonna have to learn how to meet each other's emotional needs.

And, if you divorce your adulterous spouse, hoping to catch a better relationship "next time" .... you STILL better learn how to do these things.

Which is a lot harder than "moving on", or "getting closure", or watching the WS get run over by "the karma bus".

If a BS is too lazy to learn the above marriage skills, the "karma bus" just might roll over you in your future relationships.

This is going to sound silly.....but I recently learned EXACTLY THAT!!
I have made a lot of mistakes in this Marriage.
But I DO NOT want to make the same mistakes AGAIN.
Thanks!!

BUMPING

Originally Posted by MelodyLane

hat tip to Barnboy for transcribing this from Dr Harleys' video.

Originally Posted by Barnboy

While I'm saddened that you see no hope for your marriage after this betrayal and lying about it, I sincerely empathize. In fact, Dr. Harley does, too. Here's what he has to say from the last few minutes of his free Infidelity Video :

Originally Posted by Dr. Willard Harley

When I first started doing this, I could not imagine anybody getting over it. Now, there are a lot of people that have told me that they haven't gotten over it. Thirty years has gone by, and they haven't gotten over it. But they haven't gone through the procedure I recommend, either.

The people that have gone through this procedure that I recommend HAVE gotten over it. And to me it's the most amazing thing that you can go through the worst experience of your life -- somebody hurting you in the worst way possible -- and, two years later, you love the guy, you trust the guy, you forgive the guy, you never wanna lose the guy.

To me, that's amazing.

It's what love is all about. It's what male-female relationships are all about. And when you do things the right way, you can restore a relationship even when a professional like me looks at it and thinks it's hopeless.

I got a procedure that works even when I think it's hopeless!

Even when I don't think... "I think you oughtta' leave the guy! What a jerk!"

"No, I don't really wanna leave the guy. Tell me what I can do to save the marriage."

"Well, OK, I'll give you some help."

So, you know, this is what I do. I do this for a living. I help people solve problems where I'm not always convinced that they oughtta' be solved.

But I know how to solve 'em. This is the way... this is the way do it.

If a person says "I don't want to save my marriage", I'd say "I agree! You have no argument with me! Your spouse did something that, from my perspective, is the most disgraceful thing imaginable. If you wanna leave him for that, you have my blessings."

But people have come to me and said "I want you to help me save my marriage."

"OK, I can do that, too. This is how to do it."

But it's a very narrow road, and I don't know of another way that can be accomplished. I don't know of another way. You can never see or talk to the [affair partner]* again, you're gonna go through a period of withdrawal that's, that's, that's a little bit ugly, and then you're gonna have to learn how to achieve these three goals in your marriage:

You're gonna have to learn how to make all of your decisions with each other in mind.

You're gonna have to learn how to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.

And you're gonna have to learn how to meet each other's emotional needs.

*Dr. Harley says 'spouse' here in the video, but it's obvious he means the affair partner, who most often is married him or herself