I feel like my XWW's affair was a total rejection of me and who I am. I feel less confident and have a harder time being myself. I do not understand why a person does this to their spouse.
How do you really come to grips with this, Can one ever really beleive it was the WS's problem alone. Does one have to be eprfect in ordere to expect fidelity?
I was not perfect. I was a good guy, though who tried and tried to make the marriage a good place. I am sure my XWW has told people that it was me that caused her to cheat.
Yet, she has a history of cheating on others and doing all types of weird things, like sleeping with her highschool soccer coach and having affairs as an OW.
She'd douse me with freezing cold water when I showered and tell me I was like a woman. She'd bounce thousands of $$ in checks.
So, why is my esteem hit by this?

I do not know why someone who claims to love you would do such a thing zelmo but it does put a big ole hole in that self esteem for sure.

At least with me my h did not try to blame me so i do at least have that.

Yes, severe damage has been done to my self esteem. I never really thought low of myself until this happened.

The obvious answer is yes. How can it not? One thing that helps is knowing that adultery is a choice the wayward makes. They are 100% responsible for that choice. You may be 40, 50, 60 even 90% responsible for the state of the marriage but the wayward is responsible for the infidelity. It's some comfort, but it doesn't stop you from feeling this way. Even with a POS wayward like yours, Zelmo - you still can't help feeling that, "I couldn't even keep THAT person" when really you need to be asking "Why did I pick THAT person in the first place?"

My WW pummeled me with excuse after excuse as to why her A was justified. I have repeatedly looked for validation from others to improve my confidence after this crap. Thankfully I've had a good support group to see me through. But have I been damaged? You bet. I just hope the damage isn't permanent. I intend to start seeing an IC once the WW is gone.

Interesting that you mention the "claims to love you" deal, Still.
This was my second marriage. I was so determined to make it work I made a committment to telling my wife every single night before sleep, that I loved her. I did this for about 6 months and never, I mean never, got a response back. Perhaps a grunt , but, ususally, just silence.
Eventually, I stopped, as I felt so humiliated. Then, she got pissed telling me that I held a grudge as i would no longer say it.

My IC was a huge help, indarkness. I recall telling him how I once told my XWW how much something she had done hurt my feelings. My WW's response to hearing this was " I don't care at all how you feel."
My therapist said "Zelmo, for once, she was telling you the truth."
I was a complete idiot for tolerating all the crap. But, there were kids involved. How I ever managed to get it up so that this happened is a mystery.

I read something recently about how you have to remember that your spouse may have had a completely different experience in the marriage than you did. I've been thinking about that lately myself. Everyone comes into a R with their own baggage and their own way of dealing with issues. My WH's way to deal was to cheat which he did from the get go. That took any power I may have ever had to help our M away from me. He obviously wanted something from me that I wasn't giving but if he didn't tell me I wasn't going to know. He chose to do the most hurtful thing a person can do instead of doing the right and honorable thing.

So to answer your question, yes it hurt my self esteem, however my SE was already low which explains why I was with someone like my WH to begin with.

Just remember Zelmo, when someone cheats it's (sometimes) because they need something that they are not communicating to you. You are not to blame because you had no idea! Sure, resentment may have developed toward us because we didn't DO what they needed but how could we? I think they have dialog within themselves about us and by not sharing anything they are cheating us out of the opportunity to do something about it. That makes it their problem, not ours.

The thing that helps me is this: I will care about what someone thinks about me when that someone is a person of good character and integrity. If they lack these qualities then I just don't care what they think because I am striving for more. I will now leave people like that in the dust.

Hold your head up high, you did nothing wrong!

Well maybe you did hold a grudge and i would not blame you at all if you did. It sounds as though your XWW had a lot of issues besides just infidelity.......

Yes

My XWH A imploded my self esteem. Totally.

I was blindsided, shocked, ill, and completely sideswiped by this.

I lost my whole identity.

Self esteem was in shreds. Compared myself to the fake plastic slag that he is with. She was thinner, younger (2 years), fun party girl while I was the fat frumpy girl.

What did I do with that? For the first few months I had a huge pity party. But surprise I started losing weight without even trying on what I call the "infidelity diet". After losing 18 pounds, I TRIED to lose weight. Joined a gym, joined yoga, Zumba, boot camp anything to stop the pain.

Succeeded in losing another 30 pounds with still many more to go.

Grew my hair -- long, highlighted it.

Tried making the house my own with some pictures I put up.

I still have many projects to do. I am a work in progress in and out.

Some day the the frumpy fat girl peeks back at me. Other days I just want to walk out of the house, lock the door and throw away the key.

We can only try. It took a year to build up some of the self esteem that I thought I lost forever. I have time.

Zelmo,

Of course your self-esteem has taken a major hit, especially since you had two marriages end because of infidelity.

My self-esteem was crushed and it took some time for me to build it up. I won't go into details, but I do understand how you feel.

But I can tell you, from having done some research on your posts for the last couple of years that especially with your last marriage, that you did all you could, but your XW is a very ill person.

There is nothing wrong with you. The only thing you could of course look at is why you have chosen poor partners in the past.

And that no one stepped up and told you about your XW's history of affairs and craziness. Fine time to find out everything from her family when she had her A.

You were flat out abused by a mentally ill person. I can tell you that throwing cold water on you in the shower, and the horrible things she said to you about who you are were so abusive. And wrong.

Once when I was in counseling, the counselor said that we had been in a constant crisis for so long that we didn't even realize how terrible it was because we had become accustomed to it. So I understand how you became accustomed to the abuse.

You have done a lot of things right. You, by all rights, should have your girls. But you have been honest with them, and are a shining example to them as far as how a person with integrity and good morals should behave. Just focus on being a good father.

I can understand how you are hesitant about another serious relationship or marriage. But you can use what you have learned from MB to have better relationships and choose better people, people that are healthier for you in the future.

Zelmo, you are WORTHY. Don't forget that.

My only advice is that if you meet someone you are interested in, take a long time to get to know them, and find out about them. Use MB principles, and make sure that other person is on board with that.

Do not let your XW have that power over you. Do not let this define who you are. Your XW is one sick puppy. Thank God your kids have you.

And Zelmo, I'm sorry about your Mom. Been there. Sounds like your mom was a great lady.

Don't forget, you are WORTHY.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Based on what you've described in this thread of your marriage pre-A, it sounds to me as if it would be more accurate to say that your XWW's affair was the definitive rejection of you and who you are.

What I mean is, it sounds like she was sort of rejecting you in one way or another all along. And you were working so hard to get past that rejection to a place to total acceptance. With the affair and the ensuing end of your marriage comes the fact that that acceptance will never never come. The thing (her total love, approval, acceptance) you had been working so desperately for, that you sacrificed so much for, will now be forever out of your reach.

Based on your story, it seems to me your self-esteem had been taking body blows long before the affair. You just didn't let yourself see it. The affair was not the THE hit to your self-esteem -- it was the FINAL hit.

Just my very humble opinion, based on very little data. If I've misconstrued your marital relationship based on this brief thread, just ignore me.

I definitely had issues with self esteem going in. Need to work on that and heed the advice to proceed with caution.

Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Not forthcoming.

Not really. I knew in my heart that it had nothing to do with me, personally - and that was before I found MB! OW had nothing to do with me, either.

The only times I have had an issue with self-esteem, really, have been the times I've allowed myself to resort to AO's and actually struck my H. The after-effects of that were hard for me, because of my remorse and disappointment in myself. I always wanted to conduct myself with grace and dignity while dealing with his A, and that hasn't always been the case.

You damn right the self-esteem took a hit.

I have found that isolating myself from her, working on myself, exploring old and new hobbies/interests on my own, have really helped.

Someone who used to be supportive, caring and loving had become someone who preferred highlighting inadequacies (fact or fiction), rewriting history to illustrate "TB the ogre", and gaslighting any issue to the benefit of her and her demented view of reality.

I HAD to isolate in order to rebuild myself. On my terms. In my way. In my own timeframe. It has been the epitome of soul-searching and personal inventory. She could not have contributed anything positive to that journey.

I always knew that I am a decent person, have value to offer others, etc., but interaction with WW would, if nothing else, cause me to at least question or second-guess myself.

NOW? Well, let me just say that I'm judge and jury of MY BEHAVIOR. And frankly, I like it. A lot.

But Z, you are so right. My self-esteem was rocked big-time. I hated feeling that way, and finally realized that reclaiming my confidence was going to require me to walk alone. Maybe only for awhile. Maybe for good. Maybe never to walk with her again. Not really sure at this point. I'm still walkin'.....

TB

Yes, BT, the no contact is about the best thing you can do.
I met another guy, a lawyer and former college basketball player like me, on antother site. His wife is clearly NPd, IMO and he is really working the no contact deal with success.
These folks are toxic and can really do a number on you.

Oh yes. How can it not when you are totally disregarded, thrown aside like a piece of trash. Especially when they affair down, way down if I do say so myself.

Anyway, keep working on yourself and you will soon have a change in attitude. I am at the point where I believe that XWH and Miss Mullet are a good match because I am too good for him.

How's that for an attitude change?

FABULOSITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......

Not2fun

Initually, yes, my self-esteem took a nose dive. But it didn't have far to go, since it was pretty much in the tank anyways. Plan A re-established that. I recognized my faults (because lets be frank, EVERYBODY has them.....), put forth the necessary corrections, and then felt better....about MYSELF. Plus, H had moved out 3 weeks after Dday, so everything was placed on my shoulders. And I did a dang good job of holding everything together without him.....another esteem booster for me....

Now, there WERE moments of self doubt, especially when I learned the truth of OW....she was beautiful (saw her in person, can't deny this....), 10 years OLDER than me (42 for goodness sake), and then seeing naked pictures.....oh man...but then when I really thought of what type of person it takes to have an affair, destroy a family, hurt innocent children....well, beauty is only skin deep. And if that was what H REALLY wanted, then it didn't say anything against me.....BECAUSE I was worth more than that.....

The affair was never about me.....

not2fun

ps....I also had my supporters on here helping me through a lot of these issue's....I will forever be grateful for that....

Yep, self esteem crushed!

But I think it was eroded much by the marriage. I always felt very beutiful and confident when we first met. The first thing he did was say he didn't like the way I dressed, I toned it down thinking it was nice that he loved me for the inside.

Then he began with the unrealistic expectations; there are many examples, but the first was when I got probably the worst flu I've ever had; thought Iw as going to die, and was doing school full time and working full time waitressing. I finally got to the point where I knew I had to take a break or else I'd never get better. I was worried he'd be dissapointed in me, but I went to him crying an dtold him I just needed a break. He told me to stop being such a baby.

One of the last things was he expected me to put up a fence around our property; which is more than an acre of nearly pure rock. He said I should be able to do it by myself in one day. So, no matter how wonderfully I did something or how quickly, he was always dissapointed. He said he was just trying to better me, HA!

I the summer when I got fed up with the put downs, the isolation from family and friends, I decided to remind him of who I was when we met. He decided I was cheating and I almost feel that I am being punished by al this.

Don't get me wrong there was another side to my H that was very sweet and kind. He could never understand why I was so frustrated though.

So, yes between the marriage and this death blow, my self esteem is gone. I had it this past summer, but it is no more.

I am hoping to rise from all this like a Phoenix.

Her continued rejection of SF from after DD was born until now is what killed me. I am either stupid or I'm not the jealous type. Maybe I'm arrogant, but I have more assets than 95% of men out there, so it was relatively easy to "get over it", but the SF thing has killed my self esteem.

According to her it is/was always good to great and she blames her aversion to childhood and being raised in a home that encouraged promiscuity. She has since come to her senses and knows that love is an action and not a conditional noun.

I guess it makes me a bit of a jerk for it not really affecting me... but I can't really say that because if I think about it intently I would projectile vomit, I seem to change my thinking very quickly for some reason. Coping mechanism? Probably, but it's been 8 years. Our SF is coming back to life, and gawd it feels good, no pun. I wish my libido is what it once was though and that resentment hasn't died nor the poor self esteem. Am I a saint for hardly making it a bleep in our life? No, I am a wretch that only someone above has the power to forgive.

Best to you guys.

What?????

Honey, if you can do this all by yourself then your self esteem should be through the roof. You don't need this man or any man.

Impale him on one of the fence posts!

Your H sounds just like an abusive NPD, Expects. They are so good at isolating and making you feel deficientI was working three jobs at the end, trying to keep up with her spending> I took a fourth and she was pissed that I had to give it up as I was getting by on about 4-5 hours sleep for years.
Meanwhile she had several hundred pairs of shoes, 50 bikinis and our garage was full fo her hoarded crapola.

Chai, Yes I could have done it all by myself, but I refused. I told him that his expectations were unrealistic. He said I was being negative. I told him to start looking at all the things I do and start appreciating them and to build the fence himself in one day if it was so easy to do.

Zelmo, Sound very similar. What is NPD? Narcisstic Personality disorder?

Yes, Expects. And, you cannot reason with these folks. See, the thing is that they really beleive their weird outlook on life. In your H's warped world, you really should build that fence or work with the flu. Funny, but they seem to have a different standard for themselves, though. You'd be expected to drop everything to help him when he is sick.
Here's abpout the best example that happened to me in my first marriage with a NPD.
I tracked the number of nights out in 1994, as I was home almost every night , alone, caring for our boys. She was out 224 nights.
So, in a relatively calm and tactful manner, I pointed out the disparity in both the number of nights off and ht espending associated with , unbeknownst to me, drinking and having affairs with strangers she would meet in bars at a local hotel.
There was no debate about the accuracy ofmy figures. Instead, I got indignation and incredulity. I was told "of course i ma going to spend more nights out than you. I have more friends than you."
On the spending , I got a similar response. We were fldegling lawyers at the time, making 37,000 and 38,000 respectively. I was told that " of course I get to spend more on myself. I make more than you."

These folks will drive you nuts. My magna cum laude wife really beleived her arguments were perfectly fair. Thye truly look at the world differently through a lense of huge entitlement.

Zelmo, Very similar to my H except for the being out so many nights part.

He actually did catch that flu from me and couldn't even work one day with it; he thought he was going to die. He apologised, and I cared for him.

My H didn't go out to bars and such. He's an alcoholic and so neither of us drak for most of our marriage. he did have a lot more friends than I and would go play sports with them. That never bothered me, but he'd always tell me I should get friends. I had lost contact with most of my friends becuae I was so busy I never had any time to do anything with them. I had been friends with my H friends, but he badmouthed me to them. The part that is similar to your wife though is that every time he'd go out of town, he'd either drink or drink and cheat; he probably did both all the time I just didn't ever know about it.

The money thing is very similar too. Although when I met him he had terrible credit and a bankruptcy. I reapired his credit and I handled the money and paid the bills. It's funny, when he left me and switched bank account he didn't even know how to write a check. Anyway, he did the same thing to me as your wife had done to you. I was a full time student with straight A's, cared for the house and kids, paid the bills, took care of the yard, vehicles, grocery shopping, cooking, and worked nearly full time waitressing. He'd tell me that none of that counted becuase he made more than me. That I needed to do more. He'd get home from work and nap or watch football or play, and I'd be up til all hours of the night trying to get it all done. Then he'd complain.

Funny though, becuase he says I'm spoiled and should be more grateful.UGH!

Classic disordered, IMO. Pretty intractable, too.

Oh yeah and when I got friends he was jealous of them.

Yes, my self esteem has been completely obliterated. I have serious doubts that I will ever feel whole again. This 2nd round has taken so much out of me that I don;t think that anything can be said or done to get it all back.

I am kind of in the same boat as Zelmo in that I have been down this road before. Except my W and I are still together trying to make this M work.

My first marriage ended in '93, and it took me a long time to recover from that, about 5 years. In the mean time, I made the mistake of thinking that companionship would be enough, and I got married twice between 1st W. and and the love of my life.

I tried really hard not to make the same mistakes in this marriage that I did in my 1st. I was a good husband, and father the 1st time around, but I'll admit that I could have been more attentive. It was one of those situations where I was pretty much blindsided by how much I failed to meet her needs until it was too late. She fell in love with a co-worker, and they are still married.

The only clue I had was one day a couple of month before the split, she said "You only see me at the end of the day when I am not as fresh and pretty, and my hair is not as nice",..."It's ok, I understand". I really failed to read between the lines on that one. Then in late may of '93, after over 11 years of being married, and 2 amazing kids, she told me one night that she didn't love me, and was leaving.

I tried to make this marriage very different from my 1st, and ttfwife's previous. I guess I missed the mark on this one too. The mistake I made was believing that I was the kind of man that my W would always want, and never even give someone else a second thought. I thought that I was being a good husband to her, and a good dad to her kids. Her A spoke volumes about how miserably I failed.

There were times that I tried to let her know that I didn't feel like I was being treated with respect, and that I didn't feel very appreciated for all that I did for her and the kids. She was not all that big on SF either, at least not enough for me (about once every 2 weeks). She pretty much ignored my attempts to express my feelings about all of this. That all left me feeling like I just didn't matter very much. Who knows maybe I could have done better at giving, if I had been getting more in return. How can I see it as anything other than I just wasn't worth it.

Through, you need to lighten up on taking so much of the responsibility for the problems in the marriage. Sounds like your first wife had clairvoyance expectations.
Your current wife sounds like she has plenty of issues, as well.

Okay Zelmo, now I'm feeling stupid. I took psychology too. What is intractable?

Yeah, Through, Im with Z. I mean come on...all these waywards seem to have problem with the fact that their spouses were not clairvoyant. You did not fail miserably, she did.

But sadly, I feel the same as you, like I just wasnt worth any effort for my WH to try and save the M...He threw me away like I was a worthless piece of garbage. That he couldnt stand me so much that he left his DS too.

Buuuuut, when I hear YOU say that you were not worth it, it frankly pi$$e$ me off. Listen the way I think of it is, were you gettin all your needs met? I know I wasnt....But I am a faithful, loving, loyal, honest and trustworthy human being. Cheating never even entered my mind.

And even if I did happen to cheat to get my needs met...I love my WH, still do....I would have givin my H every chance to meet my needs if he would have given me the chance. Like I offered him. I know I would NOT have thrown him away like trash.

He was my H. We had a child together......You and I, Through, deserved more than we got....we deserved an honest spouse who would not have snuck out cheated and lied to us...one that if they were not happy, would give our M a chance to recover, a chance for us to fix it....

I read som einteresting stuff on this clairvoyance expectation in an e-book by a woman named Michelle Langley, entitled "Women's Infidelity II".
In summary, she had talked to lots of WW's amd found that the clairvoyance expectation was very common(She makes no comment on WH's, but I bet they have it, as well).
Often the WS thinks he or she has expressed dissatisfaction in a clear way but, in reality, this is seldom true. They hint or use passive aggressive communication methods. Then , they tell themselves and the Bs that they clearly communicated the dissatisfaction. These boards are full of BS's who heard from the Ws how he or she tried to convey disatisfaction but who were completely blindided by the cheating because , in reality, the Ws did nothing of the sort.
Intractable, as i understand it, means it is not all that amenable to treatment and resolving.

IMHO it's actually your self confidence that has taken a big hit, not your self-esteem. Self esteem comes from being a good person and doing the right thing ~ things to be proud of.

Self confidence is different...it's what makes you feel good or bad about yourself, often based on what you believe others think of you.

Mmmmm, MF....good point...so what I am getting from that is that waywards are FULL of self confidence...and Betrayeds are NULL of it..well at least I know I am

....I have none, zippo, zilch left. everytime my WH comes to pickup DS I dont even see him and I immediately feel like a worthless piece of garbage, withering in the corner, not worthy of his almight love....but that might be just me.

Not just you! When my WH comes to get DS, part of me want to see him, but when I do; no matter how great I look or confident I pretent to be, I feel as if he just knows I'm crushed and I really think he derives pleasure from it. So the other part of me wants to hide. He never lets me though, he can't ever seem to wait in the car for DS. I will watch for him when I know he's coming and have DS ready to send out the door running off to the car. But, noooo he always has to get out an come up to the door for his fix of seeing me miserable. Ugh, I always try to look great and smile and act so happy and be kind and thoughtful, but it just kills me inside. That's usually when he starts acting really nice and buying us the "guilt" gifts. Then Monday comes and the influence of the OW and the BFF and he's back to his demon self.

Z: clairvoyance expectation was a HUGE problem in my M. WW would get angry out of nowhere about how I didn't do some thing or another...well, you never asked me. I don't know how many times I said "I am not a mind reader." It was a problem from the start and it got old quickly. It'll be one of the major flags I look for in the future.

Sorry you feel it too, EAM. My WH does the same...now I just hide in my bedroom, I just cant do it anymore....A few times he has peeked his head in my room and tried to talk to me...I just gave him short curt answers and then tell him to please stay out of my bedroom....

I also think they get some kind of sick pleasure out of it...it hurts us and they seem to love it....UGH, WH, With that big effin' smile on his face, I just want to punch all his teeth out.

"Did The Affair Damage Your Self Esteem?"

I'd be laughing if I wasnt crying.

Oh h*ll yeah.

Hey Still,

Not just you. That sense of worthlessness seems to be quite common for those of us living in Betrayal-ville. The need to fall on the sword, to question my value to others, to challenge the most basic decisions? TB is quite familiar with all of that. Do you know what changed? ME! Realizing that no one is responsible for my happiness, my contribution to this world, my emotions EXCEPT FOR ME.

Slowly, I got to the point where if WW doesn't appreciate me, doesn't care for me, doesn't value my overall worth, then she can GO POUND SAND! I don't need her validation in order to believe what I already know. She has the potential to AUGMENT my confidence, my happiness, my drive, but she is NOT responsible for laying the foundation for it.

So, now that I'm getting my personal house in order, if and/or when she gives me the proverbial stink-eye, it won't mean squat. And doesn't that go a long way towards relocating to Recovery-ville?

Thanks,
TB

To quote a very wise doggie -

OH H#LL YEAH!!!

Yeah, TB and Chai....I know you guys are right...I just need to work on that...just like I was not responsible for WH happiness, WH should not hold the key to my self worth, he is not responsible for that, I am.

My brain knows that, Ooooo now I just wish my heart and my gut would follow suit.

Oh man, indarkness, me too! I could have accomplished everything I needed to for the day and done something special for my H and he'd not notice, but come out of nowhere saying, "what about this or that?". So frustrating.

Still,

You have improved a lot over the last few months. It just takes time and a lot of work on ourselves to overcome this.

One of the biggest problems (IMHO) that you had was remaining dark. You seem to be improving on that front too.

Keep up the good work!

Hey Still,

Consider it progress -- if your brain is on board, but you're still waitin' on the heart and the gut, then you can at least say that you're a third of the way there, right? (Not too long ago, I was ZERO FOR THREE in this department, and trust me, that's a batting average I'd like to avoid in the future......)

No easy formula, no quick fixes. Once you are in a better place, though, that other stuff kinda just takes care of itself.

I don't want to go all 'Tony Robbins' on anyone, but really, we are all decent folks capable of achieving some wonderful things. We all aspire to be the kind of person we would want to be married to -- kind, considerate, loving, supportive, etc. Decent folks. We CAN be those things regardless of the behavior of our spouses.

I, for one, will not say that I cannot achieve something because of the actions of my spouse. I will say that I can achieve it, in spite of her actions.

And therein lies the end of the 'Tony Robbins' info-mercial. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.......

Thanks,
TB

Thanks guys...and yes Chai I had a horrible Plan B, I just had a really hard time with the "dark" part, which just happens to be the crux of Plan B ...

And you are right TB, i know you are. There are are a lot of wonderful people on here and if not for that I think I would just think that kind, considerate, loving, supportive and decent folks dont exist anymore. And yes I aspire to be those things...Thanks again guys.

LOL, stillhere! I feel it too, but there are other parts I'd lke to punch! What really kills me is when my WH asks me how I'm doing and if I'm okay. What the heck am I supposed to say to that?!?! Last time I really didn't know what to say, I just smirked and walked away. He ended up bringing me dinner; more guilt. I guess at least he has some guilt, just not enough to not destroy our marriage and family.

It's hard when you struggle with long term depression and then throw an A into the mix. Talk about needing a huge tow rope to get you out of the swamp of sorrows. It takes a huge amount of strength and willpower to drag yourself out of your pit to even take the first step towards being your own person again. I respect those that have done it before me and they give me a tiny light of hope that I can do it too. ^_^

After D-day, my self-esteem was in the toilet. And that lasted for a long, long time.

But now I feel fine, almost completely happy. I realize that my ex lost a good woman. Yes, there were lots of problems in our marriage, but I think that is true of most.

Self esteem will come back, I promise.

Thanks, B...so good to hear from you, I think about you often when I am on here, even tho it seems I didnt know you well, I have read your story...Its nice that you come on here and help us out and give us support...I hope you are doin okay.

I've been digging around, trying to find my self-confidence, and there it was, in the dumpster out back. I've trying to brush off the coffee grounds and used kleenex off of it for the past year or so now....

Seriously, one of the things that made it take a hit was the fact that she had valid complaints about the state of our M. It took very little for me to make major adjustments that were total game changers -- most notably getting off my butt and helping around the house.

Yes, doing the dishes CAN count as foreplay.

I look back and see that if I'd taken care of business, I could have A-proofed things so damned easily. That fact just kills me.

I believe what led to her D-day confession was my statement to her a month before that I felt we were growing apart and needed to go out of town and do some fun stuff together and re-connect.

We did on that weekend trip we took. The next week I had hip replacement surgery, and two weeks later she 'fessed up. Some of that may have had to do with guilt, with what amounted to three weeks of an unwitting Plan A.

If I had just figured this stuff out five years ago, I truly believe things never would have gotten to this state. My inability to "get it" gets me. Grrrrr.

Don't get me wrong. All this could never excuse her A. But I could and should have headed things off at the pass, as it were.

Ahead, I really wish my H would take the effort to self reflect as you have.

I have done so too and realize that I wasn't the perfect wife I once thought.

It makes his A hurt so much more. He doesn't believe I can change. And I don't see him, so I can't fulfill his EN's. They are mostly SF and Recreaton, so the few times I have seen him since he left, he's unwilling to spend enough time to do either with me.

I too wish I had "gotten it". Maybe my sweet H would be here with me now. I'm just barely getting the real info and getting a grip on this and I have to sign D agreements this next week.

I pray that our marriage can be recovered somehow; not how it was but really fantastic. That would be the silver lining in the darkest cloud I've ever seen.

No, not at all. It seems that this answer is a little unusual and it's got me thinking why not?

The OW in my case was younger, thinner, and I'd say probably prettier.

BUT, she was truly the ugliest of women inside. A low down skanky ho with no morals, a dysfunctional history, an alcoholic and a bankrupt with several affairs behind her, most of them with friends of her H or H's of her friends.

Was I damaged that my H chose her over me for a short period of time. Good heavens NO, NO, NO.

It did prove, however, how very damaged he was to choose her for that period of time.

Of course it helped that he came to his senses and begged me for forgiveness, but even if he had ended our M and run off into the sunset with her, I don't think my self esteem would have bashed.

I told my H clearly, that if he was such a low life to act in such a way and want to do that to his family that he was surely not worthy of having me or his children in his life at all and equally, I was worthy of much much more than that in a H.

It breaks my heart when I read of the damage these WS's do to their spouses, but have faith that the way a BS feels is only temporary. Real happiness comes from living a good life and doing the right things, so real happpiness will come to you.

The WS has to live with what they've done and how they've acted for the rest of their lives, and I'm not sure I could live with myself had I ever acted the way these waywards act. At some point, should they not make amends for the wrong they have done, they will have that moment of insight and see themselves for the hideous ugly people they are.

My self-esteem was definitely hit badly by my FWW's A, for several reasons. In many ways, I'm still trying to recover it. You're not alone in this, Zelmo.

I was going to answer the question with a "No" but on reflection it is a "Yes".

I didn't realise WS was having an affair and felt that there was something wrong with me that I was inadvertently winding him up which meant for horrible arguements. I had also put on a few pounds and his inability to be passionate with me made me feel incredibly self conscious about the extra weight.

When he eventually told me I felt such a sense of relief that I hadn't been imagining things. I lost the extra weight courtsey of the infidelity diet and found MB. Things then made even more sense as I saw how it was obvious that I couldn't meet his needs when we are working apart. I also realised how I hadn't been doing a great job prior to that anyway and resolved to work on myself in those areas.

I then had the misfortune to meet the OW and my self confidence shot through the roof. Even her friends couldn't understand why WS wasn't with me. It was never about me, even WS has said so. He has never once blamed his affair on me.

Now, people comment on how I don't have low self-esteem when they thought I would. I tell them the above and say whatever the outcome, I know things will work out for he best. Thanks in many ways to the MB forum.

I wonder if it has anything to do with your self esteem and/or self confidence pre-A.

I have always considered myself to be pretty self confident in a lot of things except for my looks. I do not consider myself ugly by any means (and i certainly think that i am BEAUTIFUL inside which is really all that SHOULD matter), however i have never consider myself to be beautiful on the outside.

And even though everyone says words don't mean anything and actions do, once words are said they sometimes can not be forgotten. So i can remember things that my h has said to me in the past that have made me think that he does not think i am beautiful and no matter his actions i still remember the words he said.

So as far as my h is concerned i have not ever had great self esteem about my looks so the A certainly made that 100 times worse.

Yeah words do stick, whether they were meant or not...my WH said to me "no offense but I dont want to be with a 'sick' person" and "if our DS is screwed up, it is because of your 'sickness'".

I have depression and these words will stick with me forever and ever. It was truly like a knife to my soul.

Isnt it horrible how we let others do this to us...its just so hard to forget when it is from someone who knew you the most and you trusted the most, i guess.

My h's words were in the beginning of our relationship and they were both said when we were just talking, not an argument so maybe that is why i let them hold so much weight.

Onece he told me that i was a "plain jane" and when i told him that hurt my feelings he just said "why?, there is nothing wrong with being a plain jane" and the second one i do not remember what the conversation was about i just remember he said "if i didn't marry you i would have probably married a knock out" and when i told him that hurt my feelings he said "i did not mean it the way it sounded", i asked him what other way was there to mean it, he was silent.

So remembering these things through out the marriage, i have never felt like he thought i was truly beautiful and then when he told the FOW was beautiful it just about killed me and is still something that bothers me somewhat.....

Juuust remember OW was ugly ugly ugly on the inside and that definitly project outwardly...and he chose his beautiful wife not ugly OW.

My self esteem/confidence did take a hit but it comes and goes in waves vs being a constant. On Dday, my self esteem wasn't in the toilet for long...I got angry quickly and thought my H was a complete ahole loser...so maybe I didn't pick the best marriage material but his idiot behavior was all on him. Feelings of inadequacies start to creep in from time to time but I can shake them off.

My soul sucking harpy of an ex-wife had the self esteem and daddy issues.

I never lost my self esteem as OM was a pig.

Besides, I was dang well determined to heal up after my accident and had no time for self pity.

Seething anger got me through the roughest time ever, now I can't turn it off.

Beleive me, Still, he said those things to intentionally hurt you. Either that or he is so socially inept that he should not be in a relationship.
Here's a nice one for you. I was playing scrabble with my XWW and she spelled out the word for the male appendage. Then, as if there swas some need to prove it was not a bluff word(who does not know this word), proceeded to use the word in a sentence. Her choice: " Blank, my huisband has no Blank."
We were having a nice time, I thought. I am very normal in the Blank area(been in lots of locker rooms). When I asked her why she would say such a thing, she just laughed at me and told me I was too sensitive( a common response when I would tell her she had hurt me.)
I'd been called "like a woman" in arguments with her and heard all types of mean bad things form her. She is truly evil.

Just knowing that I am 100 times better than the OW who lowered her trampy self to sleeping with a MM helped keep my self esteem high.

My self confidence was shaken for a while but that has pretty much rebounded. Doing the right thing, all the time, regardless of how I "feel" has helped me tremendously. Having DH tell me how proud and thankful he is of me for working so hard to save him and our family helps...so does having friends and family tell me the same.

Being able to hold my head high throughout the hardest situation I have ever experienced, in the long run...actually helped BOOST my self esteem and self confidence.

It didn't happen early on, however.

Soul sucking harpy tried everything in her power to tear me down psychologically.

From starving me while I was crippled, allowing her nasty dog where I need a sterile environment for my wounds, telling me I was now ruined and worthless, calling me a failure as a husband because I didn't make enough money to support her whoring, etc.

The last minute or so before she forced me out of the car on that final day she accused me of only wanting a hot chick on my arm to show off to my friends.

I told her that her shelf life was long up and all she could now get was short, fat, bald pigs. My last act of defiance as I watched the car disappear into the distance.

Little did I realize this would cost my pets their lives. I have lived with evil, true evil.

Nice riposte to her stupidity, P. Amazing that she feels she is so "hot". My second wife felt the same way about herself in terms of overestimating her physical attractiveness. She is good looking enough ,but I'd been out with much better looking women when I was single.

She was hot when we met, but 40 took over and started the rapid spiral down the abyss of middle age.

I still haven't aged much and sure don't show it for being 44 now.

The Leopard also has issues about her appearance. She told me that the guy she had been with before she kicked HIM out found her "unattractive" and would only have S with her with the lights out.

And, like Pariah's XW, she accused me of wanting her only as "arm candy" to show off like my car (a ten year-old Mercedes!).

The truth is that she's nearing 50, has had three kids and has a few miles on her. There's no arguing that she can still "tart it up" when she applies herself, but I've seen her without makeup, hot and sweaty from a long run, hurting from migraines, blistered and bleeding, and still found her attractive.

But her better days as man-bait are behind her. So the best she can do now is a married man who strings her along with empty promises that "they'll get married as soon as his divorce is final."

I bet her inner ugliness plays a role in her rapid physicval decline, P. I know many woman in their 50's who look great. But, the inner ugly ones do not seem to age well.

Hey MF,

Some really good points. I DO sense that I am starting to look down upon 'Skattorney'. Someone who lost her moral compass, and is quite comfortable drifting wherever the current takes her. Maybe she thinks she is doing me a favor by living in POSA, and sparing me the cost and indignation of legal proceedings. Well, regardless, I no longer view us as equals. Frankly, I just travel a higher road than she has, and I deserve a relationship worthy of that road. So, I DO find my self-esteem and confidence coming back. And it feels good. It really does.

"Doing the right thing." THIS is so true. Like you, MF, I am a big believer in this. I don't have 'Skattorney' thanking me for my efforts, but I don't need the praise. I KNOW I'm doing the right thing. I recognize MY behavior, I see others behaving poorly, and I say, "Well, that sucks for THEM. I am glad I'm not THEM."

And finally, being able to hold my head high through the fiercest hurricane I've ever seen has done wonders for me. We're all still here, trudgin' along, in the face of such great adversity. And we keep going. THAT is a good thing. I have come so far from where I was. I know there will be more struggles, but I have the confidence to face it head on. And if it's dealing with 'Skattorney', or my burned up car, or my roof issues, etc., I'm going to face it all head on.

Sure, the self-esteem and confidence took a major whack to the knees. But they're coming back. And frankly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they end up EXCEEDING pre-D Day levels.

And that makes me feel good.

Thanks,
TB

It sounds like they will, TB...earning self-esteem (and self-confidence) through being a good, moral person and choosing to do what is RIGHT despite how we "feel" is where we get our self esteem. There is no better esteem builder than this.

And seeing and feeling the respect from others is awesome...it's the best form of "admiration" we can get, IMHO.

It is quite empowereing when you start just diregarding a disordered spouse's warped view on right and wrong and you simply do what you know to be right. Many times, in dealing with an abusive, disordered spouse, a person voluntarily gives away his/her power and compromises his/her values to keep the peace.
Once one of these miscreants has cheated on you and inflicted such terrible pain, and you survive, it is somewhat freeing. You no longer fear the consequences of crossing the WS for a couple of reasons.
First, he/she can not hurt you anymore than he/she has already done.
Second, the cheating seems to bring into focus that which you had been denying for a long time: your Ws is really a broken, messed up person whose values should be disregarded with your own now substituted.

Amen to that. I can't tell you how many times WW tried to get me to support her when she was doing things that were clearly wrong. Of course her view is "you never supported me, you never stood by me" (I still get this on a daily basis). Sorry, I sunk to her level sometimes but most times I left her to play in the mud. Now that she's completely filthy, she can stay that way. I'll go find a cleaner place to hang out.

Yes, my Ww had the temerity to tell me that I did not respect her. Well, duh? She absented herself from her kids' lives, did not work around the house, drank like a fish and slept with a bunch of strange guys. Not much to respect. The stuff they say is incredible.

YES! Z, this is very true. I feel empowered. Liberated. Free. (And I'm not referring to 'free' from a relationship perspective.....) You bet, Z. All of it.

Look, we all take this journey. The Plan A journey had a certain scenery to it. The Plan B journey has a different scenery to it. One is not better than another, just different. For me, Plan A was making changes and DEMONSTRATING them to 'Skattorney'. Plan B is settling in and living my life according to those changes. Not for her. For me. For today, tomorrow -- maybe into perpetuity. She doesn't want the new and improved TB? Hey, that's okay. I'll take him. I like who he is and what he's become.

It used to be all about 'we' -- as in her and I. Now it's all about 'me'. It's a much simpler game plan. I don't need her for ANYTHING, and that does wonders for the self esteem and confidence. To be honest, I may carve out such a cozy comfort zone for myself, I may not be interested in having her be a part of it going forward. I don't worry about that now, though.

I should probably post some of this stream of consciousness stuff to my own thread, and kinda update my world, instead of going off on a rant on Z's topic here.

Great topic, Z.

Thanks,
TB

I think we all ranted on her BT, not just you. Sorry Z.

I understand TB. It is a form of detachment, one recommended by many "experts" in dealing with the disordered. It is the first step in reclaiming power.
Havyou read anything by Richard Skerrit? he has some good book on this and his take on detachment such as this is interesting.
essentially, he agrees that it is a good first step. But, he takes issue with programs like al-anon which advocate it as an indefintie lifestyle.
See, our spouse is our main source of emotional intimac, actually the exclusive source if you want to abide by the vows. Detaching deprives a spouse of access to this much needed intimacy. One starves after a while. It is not a good longterm way to live. ou want to be a part of a team if you are in a marriage, not someone that has to independently implement the correct values. You want spousal support in this area.
Don't do this forever. You will shrivel up.

I LOVE it!
-=Phoenix=-

Especially with a vibrator between your legs. (just guessing, of course)

Hey Z,

Some excellent points. Yes, emotional intimacy can be so important, and can be such a powerful force in our lives. And I have not experienced it in quite a long time. I have noticed it at times during "D-card" discussions, where we've shared inner thoughts and feelings, but those tend to be draining and never lead to more meaningful, and positive sharing.....

And Z, I'll be honest. I'm starving. I'm rebuilding myself and frankly, I'm getting ready to pull the oars out myself, and just see where that current takes me. A healthy, mutually beneficial relationship is a great thing. A real gift. I have to admit, that would be kinda nice to have at some point.

I will get to the point, in the not too distant future, where the confidence and self-esteem will be at a level where I WILL want to continue life's journey without 'Skattorney'.

I'm teetering right now. And to be honest, I'm not entirely sure which way I want to fall........

Thanks,
TB

BTDT, TB. Contrary to many common stereotypes, I found that it was me, and not the "fairer sex" in my relationships that was more in need of emotional intimacy. Much like the sterotyped males who folks claim care only about "da bears" or NASCAR, my XWW's had no capacity for emotional intimacy. Just substitute gossiping and shopping, for "da bears" etc. and you have them.
Once out, I took some time off and then began dating. For the first time in my life,sad to say, I put very little empahsis on physical beauty. I met a really nice, warm, kind woman and had the best expierience of my life with her. It was unbelievable, once I started to trust her and stopped waiting for her to go crazy and get angry as my XW's had done for so long. It is a really nice feeling to be with someone like that.