I am pretty new to MB, posted a couple of months ago because WH wouldn't give details of the affair. Pretty much over that now, because what WH wouldn't tell, OW delights in making sure I find out. Be careful what you ask for, huh?

Anyway, I am posting because I really just need a place to vent. Before A, I was mother to 3 wonderful children, made 7 figures at a business I created and own, wife to perfect man, great friends, traveled abroad...everything I ever wanted.

After A, I feel like a terrible mother because I am so screwed up, its all I can do to even read a book to them at bedtime...I moved across the state from where my business is located to get away from OW (she lives in the same city and went SWF over all this), plus my WH and OW both worked in office, had sex in office, all my employees knew,its just too much, my perfect man clearly turned out to be not so perfect...tried to ruin my business, humilate me, gave me an STD...I just can't even type anymore...its too ugly...

I am SO angry. WH and I were in MC, stopped because MC said we were on the right track, so now I'm in IC because apparently I'm the problem...Counselor says I have to forgive and move past this if I want to be married....and WH says I'm living in the past....Yet I wake up every morning and still have to live this life, not the life I chose, but this life...

I really do not feel like a normal person anymore...It is not normal to have this much RAGE....

I have read all the posts I can....vent to friends, journal, IC, but what I really want to do to SCREAM OUT LOUD!

When did the affair end?

When did you discover the affair?

Has your husband answered all of your questions to your satisfaction about the affair?

Has all contact ended?

Has your husband implemented extraordinary precautions to ensure this doesn't happen again?

I think it's normal, reason being is sounds like you just wrote my life story. I have so much rage until it's like I am a different person. I told my husband that the world doesn't even look the same any more. But I have come to the conclusion that with time, it will get better. Some minutes are better then others.

Yes, it is in your best intrest to forgive, but forgetting for me is another story. I forigve me husband really I do, but he thinks I"m suppose to forget like right now. I wish I could. You will have moments of rage, pain and hurt. It's like someone has died. There are so many variations to the healing process, but if you and your husband have decided to work it out, just know it's gonna take TIME. I found out September 1, 2009, and at first I was simply hurt, now it's like I'm in rage all the time. That's something I have to work on.

My husband says the same thing "that was in the past". I tell him yep, you had fun in the past with this affair, now it's affecting my present. You may be over her, but I'm not. He had his turn and now it's mine. Just my opinion. It'll get better with time.

26years and hurtandhope, the problem with being abused in this way, is that it TAKES TIME to get over it. The anger and rage is a normal part of the recovery process.

Adultery is as traumatic as rape, physical assault or the death of a child. Can you imagine telling someone to "get over it" 6 months after her child was killed? Anyone who tells an adultery victim to "get over it" 6 months after the fact, DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE EFFECTS OF ADULTERY.

It will take YEARS to get over it. The pain will fade with time, but you will never "forget it." Nor should you.

That being said, you can express your anger and grief in a way that harms or helps your marriage. If you are attacking your WS, you are hurting your marriage. Better to come here and unload your grief HERE where it won't harm your recovery.

Some very important articles that explain this are below.

Dr. Willard Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders:

How to Survive Infidelity

AND

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Hurt,

Not only was your H unfaithful and betrayed you, he tried to ruin the biz, gave you the STD and humiliated you, so he was mean and hateful as well as an adulterer.

And you are still married to him? And trying to rebuild your M? And your IC says to move on and WH says you are living in the past??!!

Hey, I AM GETTING VERY ANGRY TOO!!!

Ok, if you are/were making 7 figures at your own biz you have to be an intelligent woman, ambitious with a strong will and backbone.

But you are letting the low life OW intimidate you so much you moved across the state? By the way I did not understand the ""went SWF over all this"" what is SWF?

Do you still own the business? And all the employees knew about the A? Jeepers. I would fire every last one of the disloyal bassahds.

I don't know your whole sitch, but if the WH is saying get over it, it does not sound like he is remorseful or repentant.

Let that anger go and clean house at the biz. Fire your H too.

IMHO

kirk

Melody,

I found out on 9-15-09 and it ended the same day. WH hasn't seen OW since and sent NC on 10-1-09 (before I found MB, and knew what we were doing...but SWF actions forced WH to do something).

WH didn't really answer all my questions...but I have found out more than I ever wanted to know from OW harrassing me. Just to be forthcoming, the OW was our nanny, so WH and OW were literally together every day, so I can understand how it would be difficult for WH to recall every detail (which is what I wanted intially).

And yes, all contact has ended between them...and yes he's done everything.

Which is why I think MC thinks its my turn...I read on here all the BS who have problems with WH in the "fog" and being "distant"....I am my own problem. I just feel such RAGE for having my life turned upside down. WH begs me almost daily to move forward with our lives...

Yesterday I finally asked him: Should OW be our nanny again? WH says "of course not". Then why should WH be my spouse? What WH did was worse, yet I have to live with him every day. And I really DO NOT want a Divorce, no matter how angry I am...we have 3 kids under 5 and it is just not an option for me.

p.s. Thanks for the forgive and forget link I have read Suriving an Affair

Kirk,

Thanks for letting me vent...I am just so tired of IC...if I wanted to journal or some passive form expressing myself, then I would not be me.

SWF means "single white female" LOL, old movie...basically where OW wants my LIFE, not just WH...and I moved because of my kids...yes, I could have gone to the police, tried for some half-[censored] restraining order, waited for the court system to do something...not interested...the OW was following my kids around, watching them play at park from across the street, etc. All of my babies are under 5 and its just not worth taking the chance, especially if you have the means to move.

I really think I just need to post on this forum to vent...I almost feel guilty for complaining on MB. I have read so many stories of BS who have tried everything and WH just walks over them. I am doing things that I know are hurting WH and marriage...lets just say I do the exact opposite of Plan A

Let go of anger, let go of anger...rinse, lather, repeat. I have to work on it.

hurt, you are SUPPOSED to feel rage. That is a normal part of healing and recovery. You are going through the STAGES OF GRIEF. You cannot fix NORMAL. When a woman is physically assaulted she feels rage. What you have been through is as bad or worse than a physical assault or rape. That is not "fog," that is healing.

What matters is what you do with that rage. If you come here and vent your rage, it will be productive. If you channel it in attacks on your husband, you will destroy your marriage.

But be assured, you are SUPPOSED to feel rage. That is a normal, healthy reaction to an assault. In a good recovery, it takes about 2 years to move forward. You are brand NEW to recovery.

Are you counseling with a qualified counselor? Most marriage counselors do not understand the dynamics of adultery and don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage.[they have an 84% failure rate and have a higher divorce rate than the gen population] What are her credentials? What is her track record?

You got it!! Come here and give us your grief! We will understand and it wont' hurt your marriage.

Everytime you feel like lashing out at him, tell yourself this:

1. I am shooting myself in the foot

2. I AM MAKING THE OW LOOK GOOD!! [betcha that skank didn't lovebust him]

Don't sign up to make the OW look good~!

My next question is this. Does your MC have a PLAN for you and your H to fall in love again? See, this is where the vast majority of MC's fail. They don't even believe it is POSSIBLE to create romantic love in a marriage. And that will be the most therapeutic medicine for your broken marriage. That is how MB differs, recovery to them means FALLING IN LOVE AGAIN. If your MC doesn't have a plan to do this, then you are wasting your time.

Many folks think "recovery" means just getting over being angry about the affair and going back to the pre-A marriage. Well, it was the pre-A marriage that made the affair possible. Recovery to the Harleys means much more, it means FALLING IN LOVE again.

check this out:

Requirements for Recovery

You are NOT responsible for the affair. You and your husband may share the responsibility for an unhappy marriage.
Congratulations you have posted into the right place if this is true.

Your rage usually takes place six months after d-day. This is when your taker kicks in. Your husband needs to be aware of this. If your husband and you are reconciliating, and you trust him(snoop)let him post -on his own thread.

Many folk would caution you about the use of MC'c and IP's. Look for a councilor who puts marriage first. There are many Charlatan's who would be happy to talk to you and take your money. If you can afford it -contact the Harley's.

We do have the whole MB seminar that you can get online...We just got it and are making our way through it. Even before we found MB, WH tries everything (trips, gifts, bubblebaths and candles, etc) all of which I shoot down...and yes, I know...it will hurt my marriage. Its almost like I can not stop myself...

I could probably write a new chapter of LB...I tell him every day that he's ruined my life, my career, limited the life our kids have...I type it out here and I sound like a TERRIBLE person...I have never felt rage before...but I feel it now...

I am just SO UGLY to WH, and really, he beats himself up more than I ever could...he cries almost every nite when he tucks the kids in bed over what he "almost lost"....He didn't ALMOST LOSE anything...he threw his family away...like we were trash...its not the same...

I went back and read 26's initial posts..and I do/did the same things...talk about the PA non-stop until it consumes our lives...he hates talking about it, sometimes he gets physically sick...and my response is "you didn't get sick when you were having sex with your kids nanny"....

Ok, that's it...I will be the most hated BS on MB and my poor WH will be a martyr...Even I feel bad for WH when I write it out...because I am so much nastier with WH than I am even writing here...

Your wounds are so fresh.
And the hateful adultery took place in your own home/sanctuary.
The enemy was a paid employee who was stealing and plotting and undermining the safety and security of everything you hold dear.

.... and your WH was a willing partner to all of this ....

OW has an ugly-ugly black-tar-oozing soul.
And WH was not any better.

Of course you rant ! You have been assaulted!

Have you considered moving?

HBH, below is a post on Boundaries. It also deals with rage and how having good Boundaries can help with rage.

You were violated in a number of ways during your H's cheating, and if you are in the same house and same office where it took place - well, that rage you feel is your gut screaming at you "Danger! Danger, Will Robinson!" every time you walk into one of those places. Your mind is trying to protect you from such an assault ever happening again.

Yet no doubt you feel that you are expected to just put up with this feeling of violation, and that is causing a lot of the rage.

If you want to keep your marriage and family, please consider moving your house. Find a new place from which to run the business. Take Control Of This and get rid anything and anyone and any place that brings on this feeling of violation and rage.

Expensive? Yes, but not as expensive as your sanity being assaulted on a daily basis.

We sometimes get posts here from BS who are still sleeping in the same bed that their WS/FWS brought their OP into. They ask if this "should" bother them and whether they're being "too sensitive."

The responses here are universally GET RID OF THAT BED RIGHT NOW! Drag it outside, haul it to Goodwill, haul it to the dump, haul someplace where you can burn it!

Taking control of this by getting rid of what is still a violation to you, no matter how big or how small, will almost certainly help. Below is the Boundaries post:

*****************************

A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."

A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."

A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"

The answer is: You don't.

Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.

And none of it works.

The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:

You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.

This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."

You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

Get the idea now?

Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.

Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.

Boundaries are castle walls.

And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.

Four to six months past D-day was my period of rage. I can remember crying and saying to FWH, "I just want my life back!!!" DH was not as empathetic as many FWHs on here. He was often defensive and he trickle truthed me into near insanity but he was loving and supportive and he quietly took my pain and rage because he knew that he deserved it.

The rage phase lasted two or three months and then I began to heal and get through my own issues. Even in the heat of my anger stage though, I kept telling myself and DH that my rage and pain were a direct result of his A. He knew that he was the cause of it.

I wish that we had counseled with the Harleys. With a seven figure income, the cost of counseling should not be a problem for you. Call them now. i have come to the realization in the last few years that ANY other MC is a waste of time and money. Sign up for the next MB weekend too.

You have come to the right place to recover your M.

God's Blessings,

Say

Just a big THANK YOU to everyone that takes the time to listen to a complete stranger's problems...It is so much better to vent here than to my WH...no one in my house has metioned the PA all day (that is a first) because I have been able to SCREAM here

Yes, we have moved...I moved across the state 5 weeks after affair due to OW...she was literally stalking my kids, breaking into my house, it was surreal.

Yes, I got rid of everything/place (which included boat, rv, house, bed...basically everything I owned)....except the business (where they also had sex...in my kids room...this is normally where I remind my WH how vile I think he is). I am working on the business...its not as easy as selling everything I owned (sarcasm...i brought my babies home from the hospital to that house) but am working on it.

Pepper, the lengths OW went to in an attempt to destroy my family still blow my mind...this was not just an employee...I can't even tell you how involved she was in our lives...every party, holiday, trip, everything...we celebrated holidays with her family (because ours is long-distance). It is almost as hurtful as what WH did to me...I trusted her with everything.

BUT, I really think that her actions are the reason why WH didnt experience the "fog" that most go through...OW literally stalked our kids, came to our house, harrassed us, sent me the most disgusting letters with details that make XXX movies look clean...all in an attempt to make me kick WH out...it was all just so over-the-top that no excuses could be made for her and he snapped out of it almost instantly.

Once again, thank you thank you thank you...I already feel like a weight is lifted from me...and WH is in the backyard playing with the kids...almost seems like a normal life for just a few hours at least.

Your anger is good and healthy. Once you understand that it is there to protect you, your marriage and your family, you may be able to stop beating yourself up. You are way too early in this not to feel very, very angry.

Don't expect your husband to have even an inkling about how badly his choices hurt you. You could scream and insult him all day for months, and it won't really sink in.

I think you can do better for a counselor, because obviously your counselor knows nothing about recovering from infidelity. Good that you have the MB program, but better to get a couple of phone sessions. Let the Harleys help you put your anger into something productive. They seem to be able to do it very quickly.

And give yourself a break - you have been through one of the most traumatic things that can happen to a person.

When OW is a sociopath, I am certain the legal system must be made aware.

What has been done in this regard?

Pepper,

I am in the legal system...just wasnt willing to risk it with my little ones...restraining orders aren't worth much, court system takes too long...I just felt I could protect my kids better and quicker by moving away.

And OW husband and family also told me just to cut off all contact...their opinion is that OW "thrives on drama"...thier words, not mine...which is just so shocking...2 1/2 years and I thought this was the sweetest, most helpful girl I'd ever met...if you can picture a cute, bouncy cheerleader type, thats her...and I never even saw a GLIMPSE of this person that she is now...

Anyway, so we did not get police involved, No.1 because we left so quickly and No. 2 because her family seems to think she would like the attention/drama

I see.
I thought your reference to SWF was not only about the film, but OW's marital status as well.

Thanks for clearing that up.

What's your plan if she attempts contact?

Is this the one where they assign you a coach? Or is it the home study course where you are on your own? I really hope it is the former because a coach can be such a HUGE HELP in ironing out problems.

hurt, I know you are still "hurt" and will be for some time. But it is important that you STOP talking about the affair to your husband. It should never be brought up again. Doing so hurts his lovebank and pushes him away. That works against you and will cause permanent harm to your marriage. You can't EVER take those words back. And please understand that you have every right to be furious and give him hell every day. It just does not help you in any way. you won't always be angry, but your marriage may be permanently harmed from your lovebusters.

PLEASE, PLEASE come here and talk to US about it. There are many people here who will carefully listen to your grief. And we all understand and will never put you down or tell you to "get over it!" You will get the relief you need and won't harm your marriage.

you will get through this! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{[hurt}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Hmm, did nanny get exposed to her peers or family.

I'm sure that my wife would NOT like to hire her.

Pepper...I don't really have a plan if OW contacts...here is the deal...WH changed his cell and made it where I am cc'd on all his emails (plus gave me passwords, etc). Plus, he is just more than transparent...he won't even delete junk mail from his email accounts now... OW still contacts me from time to time...even after I moved, she would text my cell. When that didn't get a "rise" out of me, she started giving my cell number out as a reference for nanny positions. So, I had all these wives/mothers calling me, asking me to give a reference for OW as a nanny..ick ick ick. That was after I uprooted my kids and moved across the state. MC told us that OW was a sociopath at our next session and basically said OW liked to cause me pain.

So, in order to get OW to leave me alone, I told OW's husband that WH left me and moved back to our home town. This was long before I found MB and I don't even know if that's the "correct" approach, but for us, it really helped. I guess OW thinks she's won, so she pretty much leaves me alone.

I can't "hide" from her...due to my business, I am a public figure and she can always get my contact info. Ignorning her actually seems to work though...its been three weeks since she contacted me---she made a check-up appointment for one of my kids with doctor (4 months after D-Day)--really it is that weird in my life...

Thanks for all the encourgement Mel...I can honestly say that today was the best day I've had since this all started...WH is a little nervous...he asked earlier what was going on with me (I hadn't screamed or been ugly all day) LOL I just told him that I am trying to let go of my anger...It is the full-program with the Coach I think it will be very helpful...because the IC that I have now that tells me to journal and move toward forgiveness just doesn't understand me...

I realize the harm I do to my marriage...frankly, most of the time, I just don't care...but I know that I will care in the future when this hurt eases...and I also know that regardless of what the future holds, we have three perfect children together, so we will always be in each other's lives. WH beats himself up more than I ever could...and you would think that would be enough for me...but I'm just ugly right now...I don't even like me...but that's a-changin' thanks to MB

Imagine...I honestly don't know about OW peers and family...I know that several of her peers know, because they've contacted me to say how sorry they were (but keep in mind, these are 20ish y/o girls...most are college-aged and single) and I do know that OW husband and his family all know. We were very close to them. I never "exposed" because it was over once I found out and we had already moved far away before I found MB and knew what steps I should have taken.

Then you can join me in the Hall of Shame for Betrayed Spouses. I injured myself on D-Day (drank two bottles of wine with no food, passed out onto the side of my dresser. WH had to call 911, blood everywhere, kids scared to death, getting carted out of the house on a stretcher...beauty, eh? Six stitches later, I've got a scar on my temple to add to the one on my heart. Long/short, I got drunk and fell apart. Not a pretty sight.

Fast forward: on more than one occasion, I pounded H with fists, elbows, knees, feet. I stopped short of using a weapon to attack him (ala Elin's 5 iron.) But I did give H a black eye and probably 50-60 bruises on his torso and arms. I am humiliated to have the image in my head of the night I stood over him, kicking him as he sobbed and I screamed at him. I can only thank God OW wasn't there. She would have gone out on a stretcher.

I don't feel the need to lash out physically anymore, thank God. That was a part of me I didn't know existed. It's so much better now. Time, O&H, transparency - they've all helped. The biggest thing has been time. But please, if you can, try to get past this part as quickly as you can. It's not productive. And you have to live with the memory of your actions. That's a hard thing for me, to relive in my mind my savage actions.

So here I am again...wanting to scream! I cancelled two VERY important meetings today because my life/marriage is in shambles. I own the company. This contstant drama will not work. I absolutely have to get my life back on track. My WH says the business is more of a priority than he is...we are a one-income family. No business = my family is not provided for...not to mention all my employees....

Ok, that was venting, here is today's issue: WH is SO angry with me anytime I get upset...doesn't matter whether or I am crying or yelling...he says "you just want to live in the past" " you want there to be drama" "you want to pick fights with me"...

Why is WH so dismissive??? He acts like this PA was such a minor thing...and has said one more than one occasion that I am the "one holding our marriage back". He feels like saying sorry should cover everything he's done...I think he's sorry he got caught, but I really doubt he is truly remorseful about his actions.

He has told me so many times that he did it because it was fun and that if I hadn't caught them, it would still be going on.

I have to remind myself every second of every day that we have kids that need thier dad...just to get through this. If I kicked WH out today, he would be back with a 20-something, if not OW, trying to re-capture his youth, drinking, partying, etc...not the kind of dad I want for my kids.

Our last MC said that "staying together for the kids" rarely worked. Why else would I stay married to him? My WH didn't get drunk one night and make a "mistake"...he did this day after day after day...sex in our kids room, in their bathroom, in our bed (made me sleep in their sex sheets, nice touch), sex in my house while i was upstairs asleep..i could keep going...but the list would never stop.

I just have no use for him as a human being anymore. He planned my birthday party with OW and invited her..made me go to dinner with her a million times, knowing he'd been with her all day, and told her every secret I've ever had. Aren't there two or three things in the world that everyone has that they have only shared with thier spouse??? I don't have "skeletons" but I had secrets...just two or three BIG things to me..and now this crazy 20-something girl and probably everyone in FB-land now knows...

And the WORST part is...he won't even tell me the truth!!! I find out from OW what he has told her...then he lies and says "Oh, i didn't tell her, I told OWH"...First of all, that doesnt make it any better and second of all, Lies!!!

I can't even begin to talk about what happened to my kids as a result of their PA...not today...I'm already too angry.

I want to run away...

Your WH doesn't get it "yet".

Let's see if we can help him........ Let "us" point out the error of his ways, that way you won't be Love Busting him.... OK?

You come here to vent in a safe place as ML said earlier.
We can handle ALL vents.

He says he's going to do MB online...discussion forum...but I swear, its to get validation that I am a crazy BS...not to see what he "doesnt get". WH really thinks he's different than other WS...and that I am over-reacting.

He told me earlier in the week that I had totally lost my mind. You think?????

I just contacted Dr. Harley's office to see if he can do phone counseling tomorrow instead of Friday....Friday seems like an eternity

Sorry for your pain...I can feel your anger. Is WH still withholding A info, failing to be O&H now, or both?

Raven,

He just drew a line in the sand and said no more...it was a couple of months ago while we were in MC...he absolutely can not tell the same story twice and I would point out discrepancies in his story and he finally just stopped. He will not admit to anything more than what he already told me, will not clear up and of the things that don't make sense...MC told him to do it, he just will not. He said it hurt more than it helped and he refuses.

My honest opinion is this: He has told so many lies (remember OW was our nanny and was in our lives every day) that he truly can't remember what he's said. Before affair, WH had terrible memory while I never forget a thing...SO I am willing to accept that some of this "unwillingness" on his part is really that he doesn't remember....BUT I am not naive...If he's told me 10 things, he knows 100.

And this is exactly why Betrayed Spouses ask the same questions over and over and over again - it's an effort to get a consistent story. As long as the stories don't add up, the BS can only conclude that they're still being lied to.

And - somewhere you said he was only posting here because he thought we'd tell him how crazy you are and that you're just overreacting?

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

hbh ~

I am so sorry you are here. Most of us here have been exactly where you are right now.

Now...I MUST say this and you really MUST understand how important this is ~ I just read on your H's thread that you are still in indirect contact with the OW, through her niece/s who is now your nanny??? (forgive me if I am a little bit off on that) and that you are getting lots of information on her this way?

Listen to me and listen good:

THIS MUST STOP. THIS IS MAKING YOU MUCH CRAZIER and MORE ANGRY than you need to be.

Do you understand me? This is keeping you at d-day. THIS IS NOT HELPING YOU. I know it makes you feel a little bit safer but it is DESTROYING YOUR RECOVERY EFFORTS.

[I am not minimizing what your H has/has not done that hasn't helped...not at all. Let him clean up his side of the "fence" and you clean up yours...do YOUR part, ok?]

hbh...I know this becuase I did this too. It made things MUCH WORSE. You need to find someone to be accountable to so that you STOP getting info on OW.

Fire her nieces today. You do not need an hourly reminder of the A and keeping OW so intimately involved in your life (even indirectly) is KILLING you emotionally.

There's no way for a BS to no every little thing but a 90% deficient is not acceptable and is one of the reasons you will stay angry.

I think that right is right and wrong is wrong. Before PA, so did WH.

I think in terms of black and white. Before PA, so did WH.

Now he wants me to see Grey areas...and that maybe someone could be in the middle of right and wrong.

I can not change my belief system to make this easier on him. He has to spin this PA or he can not deal with it. He wants to dress it up with romantics and flowers and tell me that he loved her and wasn't thinking about the consequences.

Love her? Ok, fine...what is her favorite restuarant, color, song? What kind of movies does she like? Books to read? Sports? Nothing, nada...in fact, it is shocking to me how little he actually knows about OW since we were so close for 2 1/2 years....

Who was minding the kids while they were doing this?
It's not a small matter.
It's an actual question. Do you know the answer?

Mulan,

I don't know that to be true...maybe he is here seeking genuine help...I don't want to read his posts...I can't believe that they would be much different that what he says to me...which are half-truths and spin....

Married,

Ok here is the situation...I only have contact with OW when she contacts me directly...I don't know if you've read my earlier posts, but I am somewhat of a public figure and she can always get access to me...its just the way it is. She is nothing more than a sociopath and wants drama...So, I told her that WH and I split up and now I just ignore her...she rarely bothers me now (It's been almost a month).

As for her neice:

Neice (actually OWH's neice) was an employee before,during and after PA...and WH tells me all the time that I should fire her...does that seem fair? That someone else has to suffer for WH acts? WH doesn't like it that I catch him in lies because Neice tells me things...and that is the bottom line. He wants this all "swept under the rug". He knows that I would never find out anything if OW family had no contact with me.

Pepper...

I can't even answer you without saying I hate him 100 times over. My kids were there...right there, being neglected and mistreated. About two weeks before D-Day, OW left her husband and because WH wouldnt leave me, OW was terrible, just terrible. And WH was just as bad....I talked to them both...my babies diapers wouldn't get changed, they would be spanked for no reason, not fed properly...

And all she had to do was bat her eyes and say HBH is being mean to me....

HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE

Nor should you!

You may however, need to change the way you are responding to WH's stupidity if you want to recover this marriage.

Hope you will keep spilling out all the awful things HERE and not to hubby right now. We understand. I have lots of hope for your marriage, especially once you talk to the Harleys.

And stay off hubby's thread. The folks here will take care of him.

Hang in there, things will get better soon.

Hurt,
I'm about to drop some 2x4s on your husband, hopefully for his benefit & the benefit of your marriage, and by "virtue" of my standing as a former cheater, I'm usually pretty ginger in saying anything critical to a betrayed spouse; and so I say this with all due respect & humility, but: I don�t see how keeping OWH's neice on as a nanny can be good for your marriage, or thus, good for your family. The connection with OW's family is automatically a constant trigger for you. You're in business, so you know plenty well that there are lots of folks looking for work these days. If you need a nanny and can afford one, then there are better choices out there. No, perhaps it wouldn't be "fair" for the neice for her to be let go on account of auntie's misconduct, but it sounds like you can afford some severance to ease her transition. You need to do what's fair for your family & most of all yourself. Your husband may need to do a better job with coming-clean, but IMHO, you need to sever this tie, forthwith.

DITTO what Believer said

100% agree.
Your anger-meter will not ever go below critical level while you have this connection.

GloveOil,

Thanks for the comments..Neice isn't our nanny...she works for my business. She is a good employee...I signed a contract with her High School (she's in some sort of work program) and she will be done in May and off to college.

Having said that, I understand what you and Married are saying. And I will think about it...

But my WH wants to spin things and deflect onto this poor girl. WH life would be much easier if neice were gone because then there is no one to catch him in lies.

Just remember that WH (and I know he's reading my thread)didnt have any interest in getting rid of the Motor home, boat, cars, house, etc they had sex in....I PROMISE SLEEPING IN THE SAME BED WAS A MUCH BIGGER "TRIGGER"

But, I will think about what you said...

If niece is a Mole and is loyal to OW's Husband, not OW....
Then I would probably keep her around for Intel

Exactly.

Is it "fair" to the OWH's niece that she gets let go? Maybe not, but h*ll...NONE of this is fair. There is NOTHING fair about adultery, not to anyone. It's a shame the niece will lose her job but you are risking YOUR sanity by continuing to employ her.

There are no excuses good enough to keep her around. Don't worry, there will be plenty of people here who will ream your H to come clean with it ALL (and Steve Harley will coach both of you on how to go about this) so that aspect of it will go away. You may not be getting accurate info from her either, if it is coming from POSOW who is a lying manipulative scumbag.

He is right in that the niece needs to be let go, but he is WRONG in holding onto info that you need.

Can someone post Joseph's letter to both hbh and her H? I don't have time right now...

The niece needs to go. She is continued contact with OW, regardless of whose side she's on.

I am sure these were big triggers as well (and what a dumb*ss he was for not wanting to get rid of those things), but this is a PERPETUAL reminder ~ day in and day out.

You won't realize the benefits of having her gone until it happens.

Waiting until May is a huge mistake. You will be fit to be tied by then.

GACK,

Neice is loyal to me...

Here is the stich...OW is really a sociopath and OWH's famliy knows it...she has had mutliple affairs in within one year of marriage...OWH family and our famliy were VERY close, they all want the best for me and my kids. OWH family even loves WH...just wishes (like we all do) this would have never happen.

I haven't read his post, but from what I see, I feel like he's said neice and I sit around and talk about OW everyday, its just not the reality.

I realize that having her as an employe is not perfect...but everyone at my office knows...thanks to WH. I can't fire everyone.

HNH,

I need to go to a meeting in a moment, but I have been reading along.

Several things strike me as odd, if niece works for your company how can she be telling you things about your H? Your H has NC with OW, OWH, and wants NC with niece.

It also seems to me that while your H was NOT innocent in this by any means, he was also the victim of OW's need to either destroy your life or go after your H. She was/is leaving her H to do this. It does sound as if she is a sociopath, but given that you cannot trust what she has said about the A or the details of the affair as her avowed goal is to break you two up. You need to think about this. Oh! and your business failing will suit her just fine as well.

You will NOT get the truth from your H until he feels safe in telling you the truth. Not safe in the sense that you will hear and forgive all immediately, but safe from emotional abuse which you have been heaping on him. It does not matter if he deserves this or not, it is abuse and it is counter to your needs and goals. Thus, you are where you are.

Next I will point out something to you. Anger and rage are secondary emotions generated by: fear, pain, anxiety, frustration, etc. Clearly your anger is driven by one of these emotions which one is it?

Your H's response suggest his anger is driven by fear. What does he fear? You of course, losing the family of course, and that his shameful acts will become even more public.

I know this sounds weird right now, but you need to step back and protect yourself and one effective way to do that is to stop attacking your H. You will be in a much better position to gain the data you need, to settle down and make effective decisions, and even decide if you really want this marriage or not.

Oddly, right now the ONLY thing you know for sure is that your H does want this marriage or he wouldn't have endured what you are putting him through.

You have choices to make and they need to be made with a level head and real focus on your goals. It will be awhile before you are there, but start to step back and view this situation from a different perspective.

I have never said this before to anyone on this site and that is after over a decade here. It seems your marriage was/is under attack from the outside. Your H succumbed to his own failures to have boundaries or protect boundaries. Clearly the marriage had its weaknesses.

All of this can be overcome with the tools in Harley's approach to rebuilding and recoverying marriages but there is no magic you and your H will have to do some heavy lifting.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I just read more posts...I will talk to neice mom today and see what can be done about her class.

Hunny, on your thread we tell you what we think is appropriate for you to do.
On WH's thread, it's a whole different recipe.
Be glad you are getting these mild reminders .... you wouldn't want to be him.

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Thanks drgnfly!

JL,

Thanks for the post...I think for WH...his anger is from fear...fear of losing everything...I own everything, I own the business, he doesnt even know the banks where our money is at...I know he's afraid of losing the kids...maybe of losing me, although its hard for me to accept that he ever cared about me at all at this point...

My anger is harder to pinpoint from me...Maybe Harley can help...Picture this:

I am self-made, never had help from anyone, put myself thru college ( and I went all the way)...built a business I am very successful at, had three perfect kids, a perfect husband (our last vacation before PA, we were actually asked if we were on our honeymoon...married 6+ years)...I loved everything about my life...

And then the person who I trusted most took it all from me...and it wasnt enough to have an affair...he had to do it with our nanny, in our bed, in our kids room, at the office...read my earlier posts...and then he had to BRAG to all our friends..and by friends, i even mean acquant's....think doctors, personal trainers, etc...everyone that would high-five a 40 y/o for banging a 20-something...then he had to tell everyone at my office...

I just have to stop now, I am not going to re-write what I wrote to Pepper about the kids because I am seriously going to hit him...

My point is this...I am SO not a counselor or psychologist...but I think I am angry because I am freaking angry....He was cruel and twisted and he didn't have to be....

HBH,

I guess there is good news. He has no role in your life and you can crush him like a bug financially as he apparently has no role financially in the family. Since you have a Nanny, I am guessing he doesn't do much to support you does he?

So explain to me again why love him or he would think you love him as he has no role in this family from what you just said?

Please understand something. I am NOT justifying what he did. I am just trying to figure out what role he had in your life and why he would be important to you.

I am sure with your track record of success and independence, there is not much space for failure is there?

Point being, where does he fit?

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Is WH jealous of you? Seems like in his warped mind he wanted to go out of his way to take you down a few notches or raise himself up a few.

HBH,

""and then he had to BRAG to all our friends..and by friends, i even mean acquant's....think doctors, personal trainers, etc...everyone that would high-five a 40 y/o for banging a 20-something...then he had to tell everyone at my office...""

This sounds so totally unbelievable...was this before Dday or after Dday?? If it was before, then the boy has some kind of death wish, knowing it would get back to you...and if it was after, then where does the remorsefulness and the wanting to rebuild come in?

Thinking more about it, it must have been before... so his attitude is the most "male chauvinistic piggyness / women are for one thing and one thing only" view of life which explains his "get over it" and "quit living in the past" sweeping it under the carpet & get on with our lives response to you.


HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE HAS DONE!!

The waywards NEVER know the BS's feel of it.

Stay strong, vent here as much as you can.

{{{{HBH}}}}},

I'm going to take this in a bit of a different angle for a sec....so bear with me.

I KNOW your pain.....

I KNOW your anger....(God help me I DO....Angry Outburst's I am queen of....)

I KNOW your frusteration.....

I have been where you are TODAY....

That being said,

What have you done for HBH???....

I would seriously consider going STRAIGHT to your Dr. and tell them what you are going through. What you are dealing with. Are you currently taking any meds. or AD'S?....

If not, I would look into that option. It is not a sign of weakness to get medicinal help in dealing with the he77 that you are in. It is a sign of strength to know when we need it.

Even if you don't think you need to go that route, you should get a physical anyway. This is a HUGE stressful time that WILL take a toll on your physical health as well as your mental health (I lost a gall-bladder by the time my H's affair was over..... ...nothing like losing body parts...). I HIGHLY recommend you do this.....

As far other ways to help manage your anger.....

Excercise....I like to suggest a kick-boxing class and also some yoga. The kick-boxing is a GREAT way to get out that pent up frusteration and anger. For a LONG time, I would imagine H or OW when vigorously punching..... ....the yoga helped to clear my mind of all the crazy-making

Talking LONGGGGGG walks when a fight would ensue......getting that breather would help me to get my thoughts together so I could get calm instead of enraged....

Long DRIVES.....

SPA TREATMENTS!!!!!!....pedi anyone???...

Anyway, these are a few things you can do in order to help HBH. It is most important that you take care of YOU. Your kids need that......

I am truly sorry for your pain.....

not2fun

oooooooooooh, he wants you to view his rutting in the pig pen with a pig as beautiful and romantic. That is very fuzzy, foggy thinking, and of course you couldnt change your belief system to accept this unless you a) got a lobotomony or b) took massive doses of narcotics to anesthesize your left brain.

Is he still spinning his filthy affair in this light? If so, I can see a big part of the problem.

Raven,

Your point is the biggest road block in all of this. WH just stormed out of the house because we took a break from MB to try and talk.

Here it is in a nutshell.

I look at what he has done as some sort of resentment/anger-driven attack on me. There are reasons why I feel this way and I have posted them, but in short...I feel he wanted to bring me down to his level.

WH completed High School...I went as far as you can go.
WH worked for me at our business...His last name is on the door, so outsiders would "assume" he was the owner because he's the man.
WH isn't driven...I built busn from ground up...


WH used to talk about how proud he was of me, how much I had accomplished, how I was the most intelligent person, yada yada yada

Since the affair...its more along the lines of "YOUR business" and "you are so important" and "everyone needs YOU at the office"...he just talks about me with such spite...

i TRIED to explain this to him (before I read ur posts) and he said:

There is no point in talking about this anymore..but unless I (WH) admit that I hated you and did this to you intentionally (this being ruining me and my business) then you will not move past it.

And then he left...now he takes full responsbility for the PA...he just doesnt want to accept that some part of his behavior was to "put me in my place"

Sorry I don't have time to comment. Will check back later.

HBH, stop telling him this. It is an extremely disrespectful judgment. It also means, if true, that he felt undermined by you as a man, so telling him stuff like this only aggravates the problem. If he feels undermined in the way you think, the solution is to find ways to change your behavior so he doesn't feel undermined via the POJA.

WHEN YOU THINK THINGS LIKE THIS, COME HERE............. NOT TO HIM. PLEASE.

You guys seriously need the help of a coach to get you through this before you cause irrepairable harm. This is a very intense, volatile situation because of the depth of the damage done to you, HBH. If I were in your shoes, I would go for the Intensive Care program, not the do it yourself at home program. Can y'all swing a MB weekend? The next one comes in March?

Mel,

We could go, if he will do it. He SAYS he wants to work on it...but what he really means is "if you never talk about it again and we can just be nice to each other, then I will stay".

I don't know...he left earlier to go for a drive...I will ask him when he gets back...

I haven't read his thread, but apparently he was told alot of the same stuff I tell him....i.e. he is so dismissive in his attitude...its like he doesnt understand the gravity of what he has done, SO now he says he's done with MB because the forum group told him the same thing I told him....its just nauseating....

I don't know who posted earlier...something along the lines of why do I want him in my life? THIS person, I do not want. Have no use for whatsoever.

I just can not believe that my husband has turned into this....but thats what all WS think, right?

He keeps texting me, I have to go meet him....he wants "this figured out today"....SURREAL!!!!!!!!!!!

HBH,

""part of his behavior was to "put me in my place"""

OUCH!!

This seems very extreme, like some Republican Secret Conspiracy, and even if you do believe this, I agree with Mel, to keep it to yourself. You see it this way, but, he truly may not.

His actions do show a huge lack of respect and regard for you, and that he was bragging to all the buds shows his immaturity in the men/women relationship department, and his general view of the MAN vs WOMAN struggle(?)

imho

kirk

There is nothing romantic about an A. NOTHING. They are filthy, disgusting acts and no wonder you are repulsed by him if this is what he is saying.

You cannot respect a man who believes something so disgusting was nice and romantic. And you shouldn't respect him if this is what he is thinking.

My FWH eventually compared the OW to a prostitute...once he defogged that is what he thought of her, he felt no differently about her than he feels about prostitutes. But it takes defogging to get there and you H isn't defogged yet.

No, you don't.

He is in no position to make demands.

Do you know a great deal about your husbands past?
Previouse marriages?
Financial stataus before meeting you?

Honestly, he kinda comes across to me as a gold digger.

HBH, going to a MB weekend would be ideal for your situation and let me explain WHY. When you go, they assign you a coach to go through the 2 year program. You have a COACH that talks to you weekly, guiding you through this program until the goal of romantic love is achieved. You have daily access to Dr Harley over on the weekend forum so if you run into trouble, you can post to him and he will help you through it. If you have trouble with your H, Dr Harley can talk to him, instead of you doing it.

But you guys are not going to make it unless you get the best. There is too much damage here to be handled by a do-it=yourself at home program. The longer you wait, the worse damage you are going to cause. Maybe they will give you a price break since you alrady bought the home study program since you already have the books.

Are you in Texas? I am just south of Houston.

he went out of his way to really hurt you, punish you. What you describe is a few standard deviations from the run of the mill abject cruelty these folks display.
His attitude now, sucks as well.
I get bashed a fair bit for bringing the NPd deal up so early. But, this stuff is out there.

hbh, we went on the weekend as well...the help has been invaluable. We are still working through the program, and we have weekly emails/calls with our coach when we need them.

I agree with Mel, there has been a lot of damage here and going to the weekend is the best chance you will have. I believe you said you have an appt. with Steve on Friday, why don't you ask him about it? He can coach you until you go, and then that will really be a great help.

Zelmo, this neither the time nor the place for this. Not every wayward has a PD. This isn't helpful, please stop suggesting this to every new poster here.

HBH, he is still very, very foggy so he is going to resist hearing things here that burst his bubble.

This will not be "figured out" today or even next year. This will take years to repair.

No thanks. I feel it is warranted based on what she has described. It's way out there.

I don't think that we have anything like enough insight into this couple's marriage to know how they ended up in a situation where BaT behaved as he did. I don't see anything to leap to a diagnosis of personality disorder. A power struggle and basic immaturity would fit the known facts just as well.

No one is dx'ing. Just suggesting research.

Z, you say these things because it is what you wish you could go back and re-do (un-do) in your own life.
It's not appropriate here.

Well, heck ,Pep. Aren't this guy's antics pissing you off a bit? Stuff is downright sadistic.

That is not necessarily true, Zelmo. I was a WH at one time. It is not that that there was an intention to hurt my BW. Rather, it was a cruel indifference (I can't think of any stronger words at the moment) and total disregard towards the BS's feelings. A WS can justify an A by believing that the M is over anyway. The high of the A trumped any consideration, good or bad, for the BS. From the outside it may have looked like it was intentional. But really I just didn't give a damn at the time.

Zelmo, we have heard worse. Doesn't mean we need to distract from the problem by diagnosing the man with some mental illness. This has no place here.

The WS, meanwhile, appears to have gone off in a strop because you are all being mean to him.

Okay, you did things like dancing with your OW in front of your wife, or banging her in the marital bed with the kids nearby, or bragging to the trainer? C'mon. That is more than indiffence.
My XWW gave me a detailed description of the OM's physical endowment. Indifference?

over here

Zelmo - STOP this. NOT every WS has PD and your suggesting it to every newcomer is NOT warranted and won't be tolerated.

So I'm not so far off base now, am I?

What makes you say that?

Zelmo - STOP this NOW.

Folks, lets get back on track here and keep posts productive and helpful to the OP.

thanks, Revera

Ok, so WH and I had a talk...we are just TOO far apart on this to find middle ground. We have agreed to do the forum thing for advice and of course, do the counseling with Dr. Harley and continue with our online program.

I haven't asked him about the weekend thing...too much drama today. There is absolutely no reason why we couldn't attend, just need to wait and broach it at a better time.

Look, I have no idea why or how my husband could do what he did...but we were together for over 7 years and he was nothing but good to me. He's not a golddigger (or was not, I'm not sure what his motives are now). He actually worked his butt off and supported our family while I started this business up. I can't defend who he is now...I don't know or understand the person that lives with me now.

For me, it is pretty simple...either I have married a con-artist who saw an opportunity in me and played me for a fool and he is a cruel, manipulative person who was just waiting to tear me down....OR I married a man that did a terrible, terrible thing for reasons I am not sure I will ever understand. Either way, I have three children with him and he is in my life FOREVER. And so I am praying like hell that its the latter option and there is hope for our family.

I have asked him to vent here and I will do the same. Again, and I can not say it enough, THANK YOU for your advice, support and time. Our family needs it.

Hi h_b_h,


This is not an unheard of line of thinking... I expressed it almost immediately after dday, to H and then here. A few here said they'd felt the same.

I also owned my own business, completed my education, and overall had my act together. H was also an employee with barely a HS diploma (his words), but with great technical skils (MUCH better than mine) and street smarts.

I just considered us "differently abled" before dday. After dday (in my eyes) he was an evil, jealous monster who just needed to take me down a notch or two to make himself feel better!

It's one of a hundred anger scenarios you'll run though... None of them will fit perfectly. You're looking for answers, and since he's clammed up you're not left with another option. That's why it's so important for him to be H&O about this... because a BS will go to the worst case scenario, every time.

I just wanted to say that I understood the line of thinking... but it usually does not turn out to be the case.

And I understand your ANGER. I grew up very poor, and worked extra hard to create a nice LIFE. I battled so many evil people and situations just to escape that hell hole, to be blindsided by my own H... it's beyond infuriating.

I got rid of the toxic people in my life, most of them family. And the one who got me was the one I selected, on my own.

I am very sorry for your pain.

With time I think you'll find this to be the real answer....... The Harley's are wonderful people and will help you both!

Thanks TST...can you post to WH?? He's very frustrated right now. I think WH needs encouragement too I need a place to vent here because I am LB'ing like crazy and I HAVE TO STOP. But I'm thinking maybe that my vents are getting carried over to his posts???

Any help you can give him would be so appreciated...I read your story tonite...I hope that WH and I find our way through this....

Agree with TST. Right now the pain he caused and chance he took when he threw away his family hasn't really sunk in. But it will.

My WH was in the fog about his affair with his 22 year younger soulmate for over a year. He thought she was wonderful, wasn't after him for money, blah, blah, blah.

We divorced and the affair only lasted 3 more weeks after the D was final. One of the last things he told me before he killed himself was that he cursed the day he met OW.

This is a great place to vent. And you both are very raw right now. So well done on getting your feelings out here as you have some of the best Vets wading in to help you.

May I be so bold as to suggest a couple of things. I think both of you are scared right now. You are both facing HUGE upheaval in your lives if you continue down the separation and divorce path. Your children face HUGE upheaval and insecurity if you go that way. It is in all of your best interests to make this work. There are no winners in a divorce if a marriage can be reconciled.

TST gave you some sage advice and that is TIME.

MB principles will guide you to the place where you will be able to fall in love with your spouse again. Right now that seems impossible as trust has been broken. You will need to be able to trust your husband again. And to do that you will require Openness and Honesty and transparency. He will need to be accountable to you to build trust.

So what is it you need from your husband to start? What actions and behaviors do you require from him? Right now your defenses are on high alert and it is understandable that you don't trust him right now. But eventually trust will have to be earned, and you will be looking for certain things that indicate to you he is working on building trust.

You are entering in to a process. This takes time. Take a deep breath.

If you can try to stop the Love Busters. Not only for the sake of the relationship but for the sake of your children. They are likely scared right now too, and as adults we need to protect and nurture them as well. Come here to vent, we can take it.

Blessings
BCBoy

BC...

Thanks for the advice...I've gone back and re-read all the posts from today and followed links and read, read, read.

To answer your question, there are a million things I want from WH...but right now, I just want him to stop getting angry and to do MB with me. Also, I wish wish wish that he would just hold me and let me cry. I sound like such a girl...I have tears rolling down my face as I'm sitting in front of the computer.

I have to put little ones to bed. No more tears for HBH tonite...Good nite all

Lots of people here are working on him in the empathy department...he is sorely lacking.

Cry when you need to and don't try to hide it. You have been through a horrible trauma. Of course you cry...

(((hugs))) I have been where you are, I know. There are lots of us here who have been in your place...you are not alone.

Yes!! This is what I wanted as well. Your H wants to "fix" the problem - like a typical male, but you just need him to be quiet, hold you, and let you cry. You need to tell him this and you need to be specific on what you want. Tell him that you don't need fixing at the moment, and that you just NEED to be held quietly. You'll probably have to tell him this EVERY time for a long time. It's been 1 1/2 years for me, and I still have to remind my H sometimes.

Yes, you are probably better off being clear (politely) in what it is you want/need for awhile!

Men/women typically have communication problems (I suspect it is because Men are from Mars and Women are just Freaking Crazy).. no point making things more difficult by leaving each other guessing.

Tell him (each and every time) that you just want to be held - don't give his fixer a chance to start in on you. Once we (being the emotional gimps that we are) go into fixer mode, it's very difficult to do anything other than start tinkering until we break something.

I hope you know I meant no disrespect by saying that, and it is why I asked about his past.


25% chance

75% Chance

It probably is the latter, and there probably is hope.

But your H seems to have developed a severely over sized Ego, and he will have to learn some humility for you to recover.


I probably missed it, but how old are both of you, and have either of you been married before? How about Husbands past relationships, are there any, and do you know how they ended?


I now what you are going through, I now the pain, I know the anger, I know the rage. And I know what it is like to deal with a WS that does not "Get It" and thinks I need to "Get over it" and stop "Living in the Past" It's infuriating, stressful, and I started second guessing my sanity.

If your husband, was the good man you believe he was. Then with hard work, I believe you MAY be able to pull this whole thing together. But right now that all depends on weather or no WH gets on board.

I wish you the very best on this hard painful journey.

Had a pretty good morning so far. WH and I went for a walk...our dedicated "talk" time...WH held me today when I got upset and didn't question me like usual "whats wrong, what can I do, what do you need,how can I fix this?"....just held me.

In my sitch, it just seems almost insurmountable without WH in my life...EVERYONE in my world, and this is not an exagerration, expects me to have the answers and be in charge...and WH was always my rock. I could "let my hair" down so-to-speak and just be me. And now, to feel that I have to be "on guard" with him, its just so hard. I want to trust him so badly.

Thank you again to all those who listen to strangers I have three beautiful, perfect children whose lives will forever be changed by the choices WH and I make....so I need those choices to be the correct ones

Thanks for this! I read most of the posts on this forum just for the little tidbits of truth I can apply to my situation. This one is pure gold and describes me to a "T".

Our MC described it as a woodpecker and a turtle. The woodpecker wants the turtle to come out, so he taps on the shell. Well, the more the woodpecker (me) taps, the tighter in the turtle pulls. To get the turtle to come out, you need to back off and leave it alone for a while.

Is it not OK to be a girl? It sounds like you are used to being in control and giving direction. Everyone needs a safe place to vent and voice their insecurities. You are not a machine. And the tears I take that as a good sign as that is the grief working through your system. What you are going through is likely one of the worst moments you will ever have to face, so it is OK to feel that way.

What I hear is you are not sure WHERE it is safe to let down right now, as your world has been turned upside down, so you feel the need to put on your business face, in your relationship with your husband, where you once felt safe.

If you both follow the MB process that will give you your best shot at recovery. Are you planning any counseling sessions with the Harleys?

It might be interesting to know what your husbands plan is to rebuild YOUR trust. It might be worth asking him what he plans to do to repair the trust HE has destroyed.

Hang in there, you are doing well considering what you have had happen.

Blessings
BCBoy

I said those same words. I know exactly how you are feeling, and I am so sorry you are in that position. However, if both of you follow the MB program 100%, you can have that back. It takes a long time though and lots of hard work. Ups and downs. Keep posting and get into counseling with the Harleys.

You say that you want to do the MB program with your H. Are you ready to get started?

Have you done the EN Questionnaire lately? Do you know what his top needs are? Do you know how he needs those met? (Kind of like how he's been trying to "fix" you when all you needed was a hug. Make sure you know how to meet his properly too.)

JL asked what role your H had in your M. I think (and I may be way off) that he was trying to see if your H felt needed at all. You are independent and have employees to do everything for you, including watching the children. Did your H feel needed at all? You state that he is your rock. Did he know that? I mean REALLY know that. Or did you just assume he knew?

What are your love busters?

Are you getting AT LEAST 15 hours of UA time? This needs to be fun time. I know how hard it is, but you really need to try. It gets easier with time. Are there new activities you can try together?

hbh, how are you sleeping? On top of the A, you have 3 little ones under the age of 5 and the business...there is a lot on your plate.

Thanks for the posts everyone...encouragement is needed

BCBoy...It is ok to be a girl I am just not a very emotional person, the last 5 months notwithstanding. Thanks for the post...I bought 5 sessions of counseling..talked to them today...the first session is with Steve Harley.

Drgnfly..we are doing the online program now...but there have been suggestions to actually go for the weekend seminar, so I was just waiting til things calmed down a little to talk to WH about that...and we printed out the EN questionaire last nite...you must have ESP I don't know the right answer to the question you and JL poised about WH's "role". Before the PA, I would have said with 100% certainity that he knew...but now, I don't know anything anymore...

WH and I really had a great relationship from my perspective...we are very fortunate in our lives, travelled alot, went on dates at least 2-3 times a week, threw parties, just had fun with each other...I have talked to WH, although limited, about where I missed the mark...he keeps saying that it was just him...but everything I read on MB says if his EN were met, then no PA...so, maybe he just isnt ready to tell me..

As far as 15 hrs a week, WH and I spend 24 hrs a day together, whether or not its a good 24 hrs is a different story Today was a good day...he took me to a movie So, yes we spend a lot of time together...just need to work on making it quality time...

Not2Fun...Thanks for the re-post...I read it earlier, just forgot to comment..no on the ADs...and I hear what you are saying about taking care of myself...I haven't been excerising since the move...its a sore spot for me right now...WH is a exercise nut...think 6 pack abs...and I had 3 kids in 4 yrs...OW was 20-something...get the picture??? But, I know I need to get back into the gym...the long walks and drives, WH and I go daily...if its a good day,the walks are pleasant...if its drama-filled, we usually drive around until we are done But I get it...take care of myself

Raven...sleep...neither one of us sleep well anymore...I have nightmares...I've never had a nightmare before this...the worst dream I've ever had was the one where you are falling...but I have terrible dreams...WH says I cry and talk in my sleep...I just hope everything gets better with time...

Off to do our online MB for a while...thanks for the support

This is often a subject of debate around here. You will hear over and over that the BS contributed 50% to the state of the marriage, but the WS contributed 100% to the decision to have an affair.

There's a recent thread here somewhere where some of us decided that meeting ENs is how you get a great marriage - not how you stop someone from cheating.

Meeting ENs will NOT stop anyone from cheating when they're just trying to have their cake and eat it, too. It won't stop anyone who wants both the comfort and security of marriage *and* all the fun and excitement of dating and see no reason why they shouldn't have both. Meeting ENs in the marriage makes them extra happy, but does nothing to create fidelity.

Think about it. Some of the most beautiful and gracious women in the world have been blatantly cheated on - Jackie Kennedy, Princess Diana, Elizabeth Taylor and Halle Berry just to name a few.

I agree with your husband on this one. It wasn't you. It wasn't you.

Eh, Liz was quite the cheater, herself. Ask Debbie Reynolds.

x2

Wasn't Diana as well?

Yes, it was just him that made the decision to have an A. YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS A. He could have done a dozen other things instead - taken up drinking, drugs, divorce, etc. He CHOSE to have an A. Do NOT ever take any blame for what he chose to do.

As for the EN's being met or not being met pre-A, that is a different topic. I'm just trying to figure out what role he has and what his top ENs are. Does he feel needed? Does he need to feel appreciated? Trying to meet ENs and avoid LBs are things you do to recover your marriage. The A is done and over, and unfortunately you can never undo that. What you can do is meet his ENs and avoid LBs for the rest of your life. Be the best YOU you can be. Not only for him, but for yourself as well. You will feel better about yourself when you aren't LBing all the time. It's exhausting.

As Mulan said, this is often a subject of debate around here.

On d-day, as I sat sobbing in our backyard, I cried out to FWH "what did I do to deserve this????". I knew nothing about affairs and thought it was all my fault.

FWH lowered his head and whispered "You did nothing to deserve this...it was all me.".

And you know what? As fogged out as he was, he was correct.

An affair is really more about the WS having weak boundaries than about ENs not being met. Here is the formula I believe in:

Weak Boundaries + ENs Being Met = Affair (or CAN)
Weak Boundaries + ENs NOT Being Met = Affair (or CAN)
Strong Boundaries + ENs Being Met does NOT equal an A.
Strong Boundaries + ENs NOT Being Met does NOT equal an A.

The common denominator in an A is WEAK BOUNDARIES, not whether or not ENs are being met.

If a person has weak boundaries, all of their ENs could be met perfectly and they could STILL have an A.

If a person has strong boundaries they will not have an A...ENs being met does not matter one bit.

This is not your fault, h_b_h. This is ALL on your H.

One thing that helped me wrap my puny brain around the concept that the decison to cheat has nothing to do with the BS was to realize that one need not be perfect or have a marriage without problems to justify the expectation of fidelity. Our vows made no exception for this. And, no spouse is perfect. No marriage is without problems.
If the standard is that the only folks that deserve fidelity are the perfect spouses in perfect marriages, then everyone would be justified in cheating.

H H,

Was't your appt. with the Harley's today???

How did it go??

My prayers are with you....

Not2fun

""The common denominator in an A is WEAK BOUNDARIES, not whether or not ENs are being met""

I totally agree, PLUS selfish, self-centered, search for self-gratification and entitlement. Self absorbed, SELF INDULGING.

I think the wayward loves themselves more than the betrayed.

One more detail could be the little SWF tart, being there all the time, pursuing him, tempting him, looking for her drama and excitement...course he could have told you to fire her butt too..

imho

kirk

Thanks for the feedback...WH used to have boundaries...he called it "avoiding the appearance of impropiety"....basically neither one of us put ourselves in a bad sitch..ever...and we really lived our lives together almost 24/7, drove to work together, worked, drove home together, etc...

I just need to know how and why this happened so that it never happens again...

When WH explains the A to me, he says that it was the "perfect storm":
1: he was "in a bad place"...felt bad about getting older, trying to compete with younger guys (he played semi-pro football) basically having a mid-life crisis
2: we weren't focusing 100% on us like we normally did in the months leading up the A...I had just had a baby, we were expanding the business...nothing bad going on...just LIFE..we still dated, travelled, but...
3: SWF: he just says he was TOO comfortable with her...and then the flirting started and she just did/said everything right....examples: I told him he didn't need to play football again (injuries!!!...HE NEEDS A SURGERY TO FIX IT!!!) she says he's too awesome not to play...I tell him no more tattoos...she tells him she thinks it would look great...I could go on and on...but basically, whatever I said, she said the opposite...basically she was the opposite of me...barely finished HS, no self-esteem, drama-filled life...

Counseling session with Steve was moved to Monday @ 9:30 a.m....

We filled out the questionairres today...it occured to me as I filled out the Love Bank Inventory that if I had done that the day before D-Day WH would have gotten a perfect score...sigh

How and why you wrecked a car yesterday WON'T prevent you from wrecking a car in the future...... Make sense??

Making the decision to change the way you drive in the future and establishing some good defensive driving habits (EP's) will greatly diminish the chance of another wreck happening ever again..... Make sense??

tst...

ummm...not so much...

WH didn't have a car wreck...car wrecks are accidents...WH chose to drive off a cliff...and now he wants me to get back in the car, trust in the fact that he won't do it again, and I'm not sure I understand why he did it in the first place....

What am I missing?

Nothing.

1. You should never trust you husband 100% ever again, you never should have in the first place.

2. You will never understand WHY he did what he did, don't try. But you may come to understand HOW it came to be.

Your not missing anything HbH

My point......

He can examine and answer every question you'll every have and it won't improve your odds of it never happening again!

WH MUST create the lifestyle that will prevent him from being vulnerable to an A ever again

He did NOT have good boundaries or he never would have had an A. He would have never flirted if he had good boundaries!

He MUST create boundaries, the type that Dr. Harley calls Extraordinary Precautions (EP's)


Which focus would you like for him to have...... Looking forward and protecting you and your family while he drives or

Looking in his rear view mirror all the time trying to see the road behind him?

Looking foward, definitely Thanks!

There are no guarantees it will never happen again.
Sad fact. But true fact.

Not long after we began counseling, the counselor told us that because I am the way I am (analytical thinker) recovery would be tough.

I see that you and I are somewhat alike. Sistah !

I do understand your desire to "make sense" of these ugly events.
It will come. Take part in recovery efforts without the "making sense" .... because it takes a long long time to get a handle on it.

The decision to engage in an ugly adultery is not preceded by a risk/cost analysis in their pea-brains.

I'm going to bump a thread for you.

Anatomy of Adultery

Not long after we began counseling, the counselor told us that because I am the way I am (analytical thinker) recovery would be tough.

I am very much this way as well...what I imagine happening is I will eventually come to a place of acceptance...both that it happenend AND that I will never understand it.

I need to accept that I will never understand it and let it go...very hard for me to do.

And I also wanted to add another thought.
If the BS is an analytical sort,like us, one of the things that makes us go nutz is that it JUST MAKES NO SENSE !

If you rage at WH when he gives you nonsensical "reasons" .... it is because it is nonsensical.

Capiche ?

HBH,

Please pay particular attention to something that Pep just said.

The reality is that it does not "make sense" nor were his thoughts "logical". These are often decisions made from deep within someone, looking for something and they cannot even define it. This is why BOUNDARIES are so important. They protect even if things don't make sense or the person cannot define what they are feeling.

God Bless,

JL

Sleep should improve but in the meantime, have you considered anything like Ambien? I don't know if you and WH have gone to the doctors for STD testing but you can inquire about ADs as well. Not the best doctor visit you'll have in your life but it can bring you some peace of having one less thing to worry about. If you can fit in an afternoon nap, you might feel a little better too.

The picture is becoming clearer....

""compete with younger guys (he played semi-pro football)""

""...I tell him no more tattoos..""

A tatted up jock losing his edge...this explains much about his cavalier attitude toward women and their purpose here on earth for us macho dudes. I have been in enough locker rooms and have/had enough jock pals, to know there is an underlying mentallity amongst them concerning sex, women, and the sport of...well what ever one wants to call it.

What I can not place in the time line, HBH, is when was he this mean and vindictive A-hole, ruining the biz and bragging to all that would listen? Right after Dday or before?

BRAGGING is another jock passtime which kind of ties it together.

It's their attitude toward women. Playing sports ever since grade school, through high school (intense)then college (mucho intense) then semi-pro or professional ball (max intense)the macho, jock brotherhood gets stronger the farther they go.

So your H was indoctrinated into this mind set at an early age I imagine. It doesn't excuse anything of course, but it does explain some of his actions.

On another note: How do Arabs make love?....... Intents!! ..sorry

kirk

Black Raven is right. You must have some sleep. When I was at your stage of recovery, my C said that I should take Ambien or Simply Sleep--something to ensure that my mind and body got the rest it needed to make it through the next day. I guess I spent about two months on Ambien. I'd never had sleep issues before. I didn't get addicted to the meds. Being rested will give you the strength to handle things more calmly.

Yepme too. For some reasom I feel that if I can understand this stuff, I can avoid it.Truth is I understand it perfectly. I was maried to a flawed, connscienceles person and this was bound ro happen.
The tats and football: I agre with krusht. He is really immature.

Kirk,

The bragging and all was before D-Day...and I "feel" like he was ruining the business...but in fairness, I am not objective...its not like he was stealing money or clients or anything...he does the marketing for the business...and instead of doing his job, he was doing our nanny....AND he told me he had too much work on his plate, so I basically kept taking more and more responsbility off of him during the course of the PA until he basically did nothing...

BUT since D-day, nothing like that, he works harder than ever and hasn't talked to any of his "buddies"...I have read many, many posts where WS didn't just snap out of it...my WH lacks some empathy, but he hasn't put me through a lot of BS since D-Day....thank God, because what he did during the PA is enough for me to deal with...

"Either way, I have three children with him and he is in my life FOREVER."

Why?

Think about what you really mean here.

Because WH doesn't just "go away" with a divorce...he will always be in my life because of our children. Obviously in a different capacity, if I chose D, but still in my life. There are birthdays, school programs, sports, I can't even list it all..I just think our lives are intertwined regardless...

Went to dinner tonite with friends...TRIGGER TRIGGER TRIGGER

I am seriously considering hynoptism....has anyone out there tried this???? I just simply do not want to think about this PA 24/7...I can't even carry on a normal conversation...

Hi Aphelion - Miss you.........

I think the first mistake the poster made was to hire a young nanny. We've seen over and over on this site where the OW was a nanny, babysitter, a woman friend brought into the house because she had no where to live.

Over time, there is intimacy, and boundaries start disappearing.

I'm not excusing hubby. He failed to make good choices, and right now doesn't seem to get it. But I tend to want to give him a break and have hope for the marriage. He is just like a thousand other WS's who have posted here.

HBH,

Take a look at the Managing Memories link in my sig line. I don't know how much help it will be, but it discusses a technique for learning to short circuit the emotional reactions to memory by changing what you are thinking about, as in actively changing your thoughts BEFORE the emotions come flooding back.

This seems to work because whenever we remember the details of an event the emotional content of the memory lags behind by a minute and a half to two minutes. If we recognize the pattern before the emotions overwhelm us, we can actually think about something else and so prevent the emotions from showing up or at least replacing them quickly with better feelings.

Mark

Mark,

Thanks for the link...I read it and am going to start applying those techniques...maybe it will help me regain a sense of control which is so desperately lacking in my life....

SMB and I rarely went anywhere with any friends in order to avoid these triggering situations.

Do these friends know about the A?



A Labotomy is about the only way I know to wash all these memories away...... But all the real ones and all the good ones disappear as well.......

And yes, in time, the real and the good memories will reappear!


HbH, you are going to think about this 24/7 for a long time...... But I promise that The Harley's will give you and your H some tools that will help with the trauma care you require now.
Hang in there!

{{{{{{HBH}}}}}}

hbh, you're looking for something to remove this memory from you, and it just isn't out there, or none of us would be here So you're going to have to reach down, deep within you, and pull out that part of you that is there to take care of you emotionally. You've got it in there. You can do this. It's going to be hard at first, but it does get better.

Do what you need to do to take care of yourself. If you needs AD's or sleep meds, get them. Do what you can to stay healthy. Being able to sleep is key.

No, I haven't told any of my friends...WH friends all know, but he just doesnt have contact with them anymore. No one in my family knows either.

The A ended on D-day, before I found MB and heard of "exposing"...but in our case, I just think it would hurt my family to find out...only a few male members (high-fivers know) of his family know...

WH had dinner planned last nite...friends called and invited us out, I just should have said no...one close friend is VERY suspicious of why I fired OW...all our friends and family knew OW very well because we brought her everywhere with us and I really depended on her alot, SO of course a lot of questions when I fire the person who I always said "made my life so much easier" ICK ICK ICK

So tell them why?

Yes tell them!

Karma,

Not sure if I understood the question...but I don't intend on telling anyone about the PA or our current sitch until I figure out what WH is going to do...

It just causes me to be uncomfortable in social settings since no one knows (i.e. if friends knew, they wouldn't talk about OW, they wouldn't talk about Tiger Woods drama, John Edwards drama, etc...because friends would know its a touchy subject for me)

Probably just need to steer clear of friends for a while...

You need to expose the affair to these people immediately! NOW! RIGHT NOW! Call everyone and tell them!

You are not protecting your marriage or doing yourself any favors by isolating yourself and pretending there isn't a problem!

I do not know if the say "once a cheater always a cheater" but i can assure you that if you do not expose and do a good R, your H will be at it again in a very short time, and the pain is even worse then.
Expose now
blessing

Why is this?



Good riddance.



Why not?


Are you suggesting that it will hurt your family to know that you need their support during a personal crisis?
You sure seem distanced from your family.






Tell them the truth.
Unless they are as pathological as your H's friends.
You need a close support system.
Some of your anger comes from feeling like you must betray others to keep your WH's dirty secrets.

You must feel, deep down, that you are living a lie. And this makes you mad as hell.

.
.
.
.
and keeps you there.



"Family/friend, I need your support.
WH had an affair with the nanny. It lasted X number of months. The affair ended the day it was discovered.
We are working with a marriage counselor, hoping to put our lives back together. This is the hardest thing I have ever done.
I may ask for your help in the future, please be there when I ask for it."

You can leave out the gruesome details.

I am not ready to talk to my parents and siblings about this...we live hundreds of miles away from them...I don't understand how telling them at this point (while WH and I are trying to figure it out) would do anything but hurt more people. Obviously if WH leaves, then that would be a different story...

My understanding of the concept of exposure was to end any opportunities for A to happen, not letting WH have any resources, etc...(i.e. if everyone knows about PA, it would be more difficult for WH to carry it on) But I am certain of NC...so what does exposure do at this point?

I did a quick search of the Harley's Q&A and couldn't find it...I will look thru the books after I get the little ones down for nap time.

One of my requirements for even considering recovery after adultery .... was the following:

My H had to speak to my parents, himself. Without me. And apologize.

If he had not made this step, I would have lost all respect for him.

I could never respect a man who was counting on me to hide his secrets for him.

I could never remain married to a man I did not respect.

I'm just sayin' ....

Exposure makes sure that your WH is influenced by people who can be sure that he is held accountable for his actions.

EXPOSE NOW! You are only hurting yourself and allowing your WH to spin the story to his/your family if you DON'T!

Pepper,

I haven't told any of my friends because I just don't want to talk about it. It would not be as simple as laying out the facts, there would be questions and everyone trying to put two and two together...AND what if our friends were discussing it, their kids overheard something and our kids found out...I don't know, it just seems like more than I can deal with right now and I want to keep it in my hands until I figure out what to do with it. I just don't want to think about it snowballing.

I haven't told my family because I don't see the point. It would hurt my parents terribly...they would want to talk to me and WH...it would just be more than I can deal with right now. If we lived near each other and I saw them every day, I think I would feel differently. But I live far away, and its just one less thing I have to deal with.

BUT, there is a part of me that is angry because he is still the "perfect husband" in our little circle, so you nailed that one. HOWEVER, what I struggle with, is this: short-term, there is a petty-side to me that would like our friends to take my side and be angry with him...but long-term I'm just not sure that I want everyone to know our personal business.

The fact that I am blabbing my personal life all over internet-land notwithstanding, I am a very, very private person.

HBH,

I'm sorry about the awful night. Those triggers can be a B*&%#!!!! They will lessen over time. The key is to try and figure how to handle them when the DO occur. Steve will help you with this...

I really do think you should see your Dr. The ramifications of what you are dealing with will catch up with your physical help eventually. If you get a jump start on it NOW, you can lessen the impact that it will have on you.

YOu seem like a very confident, strong, and successful woman. You may "think" it is a failure not to be able to handle this, but its not. It is not a sign of weakness to get help. It is a sure sign of strength. You may not even need AD's. Many on here do not, but I would leave that up to YOU and your Dr. to decide. Even if you elect to not take them now (and probably your Dr. will help you with other ways to handle the stress first....), at least your Dr. will know what is going on and will better able to monitor what you may or may not need in the future.

How is your appetite?.....Are you losing weight??? If your not, I would be surprised. Around here, we call this the "Affair Diet".

Anyway, I hope the rest of your weekend is some what peaceful. I would suggest staying away from all affair, marriage, and relationship talk until your appt. with Steve. Rehashing at this point is rather detrimental anyway.

Oh, and talk to Steve about possibly attending the weekend. Maybe he can bring it up to WH and then you won't have to.....

not2fun

That ship has sailed...

But, WH would "come clean" so to speak, if I would allow it...I am adamantly against it. He suggested it again last nite after dinner.

When I do talk to my family, the PA is never mentioned...its actually a relief to NOT have to talk about it, or how I'm doing, or how WE are doing...I don't know...maybe I am just wired differently. I can honestly say that I wish NO ONE knew. It is humiliating.

Exposure is number one for ending any chance at rekindling the affair. You are setting yourself up for failure if you DO NOT expose!

It would be humiliating for OW too if you exposed and then everyone would know what a tramp she was for sleeping with a MM!

I actually said to WH a couple of days ago "this (marriage) is the only thing I've ever failed". Of course, WH says he failed, not me. But it was a joint venture...

Thanks for the support Looking forward to a drama-free weekend....

Are you saying that you require secrecy from your husband?

Interesting ......

..... and not in a good way.

He is quite right ya know.......THIS is NOT your failure. No matter WHAT you did or didn't do in the marriage, this is 100% on him. You are not doing him or yourself any favors by taking any of the blame. It lies solely on him.......do not assign blame where it does not belong....

not2fun

ps.....I'm refraining on speaking my opinion on the telling others at this time, but I did want to ask you.....

since, you are not comfortable talking to others about this, and even feel that being on here is out of the norm for you, how DOES talking about it on here make you feel? Just curious

Yes, Pepper, I guess I am Which doesn't seem to be a good thing from the posts I am reading...I will talk to Steve about it Monday in our session. I just REALLY do not want to answer questions right now and I can't see how telling aging parents helps anything.

Aren't spouses supposed to be each other's confidants? If its something very private and hurtful to me, why is it not ok that I don't want to share it with friends and family?

I do understand what Karma is saying...BUT those people (OWH and family, and friends and co-workers from old home town) already know because we did expose to them. The people who do not know lives hundreds of miles from OW and will never see her again or have contact with her, since I wont be bringing her "home for christmas".

Do you want to regain some respect for your H?
Or, is that too frightening a thought?

I'm beginning to sense you need your anger as some sort of protection against the risk of increased intimacy.
Or,I could be full'a'crap. Wouldn't be the first time.

I thank God for MB and this forum....I say it very often when I post...THANK YOU TO STRANGERS WHO LISTEN...

I went to a hypnotherapist about 2 years after D Day. It made an enormous difference to my obsessing and sleeping badly. I highly recommend it.

I live in London, so I cannot recommend my therapist to you, though! Make sure you go to someone who is a member of a recognised professional body in your state.

HBH, I recognise you're very reluctant to expose your private business publicly.

Have you asked yourself - deeply and honestly - why you don't want people to know?

How important is it to you to maintain the public image of being a perfect success? Would the break-up of the marriage knock that image? If so, how much is that affecting your decision-making?

I get the sense that you're conflicted between 1)the repair of the marriage - which would mean being vulnerable, and having the courage to let the marriage be something other than you planned, and 2) having to maintain a successful front at all costs - which would make it almost impossible to rebuild the emotional core of the marriage.

What do you think?

TA

HBH,

Please re-read Pep's posts to you. It is my opinion that the only way that you will really get through (notice I didn't say past) this is if you are open and honest with your loved ones. Keeping your WH's dirty little secret will eat away at you and the uncomfortableness you feel around friends and family will turn to resentment at WH for putting you in this position. The best way forward is the the truth. Just because you tell these folks doesn't mean that you have to talk about it ad nauseum.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that they already know or strongly suspect anyway. Look at it objectively. You fired a long-time 'trusted' nanny and picked-up and suddenly moved away from a community where you had a thriving business. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together on that one. What did you tell your family about moving? Surely they asked? Whatever you told them was undoutedly a lie or a severe bending of the truth and once again, you will deeply resent WH for putting you in the position of lying to friends and family to hide his dirty little secret.

Please think about what I'm saying and Pep as well. You don't need to decide this minute. If you decide to recover with WH lying and secrecy will severely hamper your efforts in my opinion. I realize it's hard. Telling my friends and family about my WW was very difficult as well because I am a very private person just like you. But, I did it and I look back now and know it was the right thing to do.

Mindshare

Originally Posted by TogetherAlone

HBH, I recognise you're very reluctant to expose your private business publicly.

Have you asked yourself - deeply and honestly - why you don't want people to know?

1) Because I'm humiliated...I absolutely HATE it that my office staff knows our personal business...my family and friends do not and I (absent triggers from dinner last nite) enjoy talking to them. My sister called tonite, there was no talk of drama...just sister talk and I enjoyed it. Friend from dinner called just now, there was no talk of drama...and I enjoyed it

2) Because I don't know how this is going to play out
a. if WH leaves, then obiviously I will tell the ugly truth
b. if WH stays, then I have to decide how to handle it long-term (I'm not saying I will NEVER tell...its just that once it is out there, you cant unring that bell)

3) Because I am very private...I havent told one "girlfriend" about this...the ONLY people that know are people that OWH and WH exposed to...I don't like talking about personal things with anyone other than WH....its not just the PA...I have never once called a girlfriend, sister or mom to say "had a bad day ,needed to talk"...just not me

Originally Posted by TogetherAlone

How important is it to you to maintain the public image of being a perfect success? Would the break-up of the marriage knock that image? If so, how much is that affecting your decision-making?

It is VERY important to me...not the "image" but being the real deal. I am by no means perfect, but I have led a goal-oriented life and I am proud of the person I am, decisions I've made and life I've lived. Of course, a divorce definitely doesnt fit into the plan I had for my life. BUT, that's not what my decision is based on...because for me, the damage is already done. My decision is based on my children...they are all under 5. If WH and I can pull this together, I feel that would be the best for the kids. If we had no children, I would not choose this marriage. Its just that simple. MC told me that marriages "for the kids" rarely work. I'm not buying that. Everything I had read here shows that M can be repaired if the work is done. I'm just saying I wouldn't do the work if there were not kids involved. But there are, so I am.

...that I am starting a new business in new city, which we did...


Believe me when I say that I take everything I read on MB to heart..I go back and re-read these posts...the decisions I make regarding this M are the most critical decisions I will ever make in my life because they will shape my childrens' lives forever. I am just VERY CAUTIOUS about doing anything that I can't "take back" until I see how this unfolds.

Thanks again for the advice and support.

Tell them what the skank did to you.

HBH, I've read your thread and I'm very sorry for what you've been through. The pain that was caused to you is horrible. I understand to a point as my WH had his A with a coworker/friend. Someone he brought into our lives along with her H and kids as friends. She and her family came into my home, spent weekends with us and went on vacation with us. The hurt and humiliation cannot be described. I get that.

I see something in you that I used to see in myself; the inability to be vulnerable. I kept what my WH and OW did to myself for a long time. Not only did it do my M no good, it hurt me and caused me to miss out on the love and care of my family and friends during the most painful time in my life. It also caused the anger toward my WH to fester and that did damage. I was unable to do a Plan A because of my anger. I see that in you as well. I encourage you to at least tell your family. You need their love and support. Please don't keep this to yourself. Don't do that to yourself. Let your walls down. Once I started to open up I felt such a release. I can look back now and know without a doubt it was the best thing I did for myself.

Exposure is an important, powerful & crucial tool. I've seen it firsthand, and for me, it was painful medicine, for someone as stupid & selfish as I'd been; but it had the desired effect for my wife & for my marriage.

I do want to suggest that before HBH pursue exposure to her family, she do a deliberate motivation-check on what would be her reasons for exposing to particular people at this time.

As has been articulated on this thread by others, main purposes of exposure are (1) to improve the chances of killing an active affair, and (2) to make it more difficult for a "dead" affair to resume, as it can provide a greater level of accountability upon the wayward spouse. Additional purposes may be (3) to obtain important emotional support & advice; and (4) for her & her H to practice complete transparency toward third-parties such as friends, children & family members. There may be other purposes that I've missed. (Disclaimer: Those numbers 1-4 aren't a "Harley" list, they're just my own shorthand for this particular post.)

Anyway, as I understand HBH's situation, the affair is ended as far as she can tell, so purpose (1) would no longer be served. As far as she can tell, her husband has maintained NC for over 5 months, so purpose (2) may not, or may, still be served. She does not appear to have a close relationship with her family, so it is not clear whether purpose (3) would be well-served. Transparency is usually less stressful than putting on false-fronts, so there may well be some benefit in terms of my purpose (4).

It took exposure to end my affair. (Athough I wasn't looking for an "out" from my marriage, I was a total cake-eater, and when my OW got found out by her H's PI, I was automatically exposed as a result; and so I felt I had no choice but to come clean to my wife, so that she would hear about the A from me & not from someone else). Exposure to certain others also has also been a huge plus for our recovery -- my wife exposed the affair to her best friend on d-day, and in the days immediately following, we together exposed the affair to our pastor as well as several couples who were long & true friends of ours & whom my wife & I both trusted to have each of our best interests as well as the survival of our marriage at heart. So based on that experience, I'm a firm believer in strategic, purposeful exposure.

At the same time, my wife did not expose to everyone. She considered telling parents and children, and decided against it. This was her decision; and I'm sure that if I'd not broken off the affair, or if I'd slipped up on no-contact, then she may well have reconsidered & done additional exposure. But it was her choice. (Obviously, it was an easier choice on me not to have our kids or parents know; but if she'd wanted it otherwise, I'd have been in no position to object.)

In HBH's case, she may have a certain feel for whether her particular friends would, or would not, be supportive of her, and/or helpful to her, and/or beneficial to recovering her marriage. I allow the possibility that bringing in certain outsiders (friends or family) with whom her friendships or family relationships are not particularly close or trusting, could bring more stress for her than it alleviates, and thus potentially be a distraction from her relations with her husband. Or not. I also understand that her H has expressed acquiesence to additional exposure, but that HBH is currently not in favor.

HBH, I guess all I'm suggesting (in a too-wordy way, sorry) is, you should really consider whether there are good people in your life whom you can lean on -- go-it-alone has been your style, but consider whether that's what's best for you now. At the same time, be sure to expose with a clear purpose in mind, not as a "stab-in-the-dark" act.

Just a quick thought: we did limit exposure to our pastor, my best friend and her husband, and three of four other couples that were very close to us. No further exposure to family, children, or workmates seemed necessary. I will tell you, however, that now, more than a year later, we have exposed to a few more couples, and those who knew us before D-day and were told just recently ALREADY KNEW, either because of the OW telling them or they just put two and two together.

It was NEVER easy to expose to people who saw my DH as an upstanding, moral guy, but now that they know, it has allowed us to have a freedom of conversation with those people that not all our friends have with us. I find now that I would like a few more of our friends to know just so I can be free to talk about whatever when I see them. The A no longer monopolizes my thoughts, but it has changed who I am and it has an impact on my worldview. I don't like having to analyze what I'm going to say based on whether person I'm talking to knows or not.

Would you be humiliated if you split up? Would that make you a failure? If that is the way you think, then conversely choosing to stay should make you a success. You are choosing to do the hard work to save your marriage, and if your marriage recovers, that would be quite an accomplishment.

HbH, You've mentioned several time that you're not sure if H is staying??

Is this because of your own doubts and fears?
OR
Is this because H has not committed to staying yet??

tst,

I don't think WH knows what he wants...he talks alot about "logically" what he should want for his life and what the "right thing to do is"...

WH struggles with his desire to live a care-free life...so far, he's chosen to stay with us..but that doesn't mean that its because he wants to be here...he feels guilty, feels like he "owes" us, and I think (although he denies) its a financial decision for him as well..

Ahhhh yes, the care-free life. As if all life's responsibilities will magically disappear if he's on his own. I wanted to smack my H when he talked about this. It's like they don't realize that they will still have payments, children to care for, a house to clean, etc. The difference is - they have to do it on their own without our help.

Exactly drgnfly!!!

WH had this idea in his head that we could still be friends if Plan D....he said something to the effect of "I know you'll be mad at me for a little while, but I can see us still be best friends" and then gave me CRAZY examples of how he pictured our D-life:

1) I could call him in the middle of the night (if I needed help with babies) (we still have bottle/diaper issues)
2) He would come over every night and do our "nightly rituals" with babies
3) He "knew" I would still want him to participate in all our family traditions (this one infuriated me...he wants all the perks of family, but none of the responsbility)
4) He knew that I'd get re-married to a great guy and we would all "hang-out" (my personal favorite)

I told him he had "f-ing lost his mind". If Plan-D, I don't ever intend on speaking or seeing him again unless it directly involves our children. FRIENDS??? With friends like that, who needs enemies?

It troubles me when the WS has gone as far as thinking through a separation. It shows that they are on their way out of the marriage - unlike, say my cake-eating H whose ideal life would have been to have his marriage and his affair.

DId your H still talk like this after D Day, and after NC was supposedly established? In other words, was he still thinking of leaving even though OW was out of the picture?

If so, that's a red flag to me.

Yeah, huge red flags...he still talks like this (at least up to the day he got on MB...i think 4, maybe 5 days ago). Since he first posted on MB, he hasn't mentioned leaving. He's been better for these past few days and says he isn't leaving no matter what....doesnt erase everything he said before and after d-day, but its something i guess...

How nice for me and my kids...to be reduced to a pro/con list

And all of this is ONLY because OW went SWF...he would have Plan D'd us if OW didnt seriously scare the S&%T out of him

ain't life grand....

Here is a recent MB thread called "The Fantasy of Divorce" which addresses exactly this situation:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2275600#Post2275600

I don't now SC..... When a wayward talks this kind of stuff..... He's just living in the fantasy, and the fog!

This is why exposure AFTER the A is often necessary..... it ends the fog and the fantasy quickly.

It seems to be a common fantasy among wayward spouses. I don't think it has much to do with being on the way out of the marriage; it's more to do with blocking out reality. Once they start blanking out nasty truths, the world becomes full of rosy possibilities, including the one with the painless semi-separation and the contented, abandoned spouse, and the flying pigs.

TA

I call your h's attitude the mummy train.

There are many people who seeing the support systems which are built for the benefits of the children, ie nice home, pleasant surroundings, regular meals, birthday parties,outings etc, feel free to take a ride on the situation .

My h was one of these. I constantly felt that I was dealing with 3 children my h being the most demanding of the 3 he had no idea what his role was. So he clambered aboard the mummy train for the good times and the free ride.

When I discovered his VLTA cake eating odyssey he took the same attitude as your h. What is the problem? it is over now.Let us just put it behind us and get on with our lives. Most people would take it all in their stride. What is the matter with you? blah blah blah blah.

The trouble was his concept of the a was that it was just an added extra where as to me it was a total secret invasion of my life.Come to think of it the ow had this only a little bit extra attitude she was the invisible cuckoo on board the Mummy train.

I really sympathize with your sitch

PS I found that printing a few choice postings from here helped to refute some of his assumptions and change his attitude.I had quite a collection in the end.

BEST WISHES

Does anyone know in which book Dr. Harley addresses EP? Or is there an online article/link?? I'm about to go on a search but thought someone may know....

WH asked for the info...curious because I would think WH's already taken EPs...

1)moved to another city
2)changed cell #
3)transparency w/passwords and cell
4)no contact with "high-fivers"

Pgs. 59-65 of Surviving An Affair.

and these two link will get you to some of the info as well.

Link

Link 2

*

This is just part of the arrogance and selfishness of the WS (not FWS) - he honestly thinks it's all up to him whether he stays or not.

He still seems to have the idea that all he has to do is grace you with his presence, and you'll be happy and grateful because that's all you want or need.

When he loses this arrogant, disrespectful notion, you'll know he's starting to turn around. But not before.

*

Well, I asked because this statement of yours, and a number of others, sounds to me like a big generalization. This sort of thing is called magnification by psychologists. The future has so many possibilities it is essentially unknowable, but when we are under stress from fear, or anger, or shame we tend to select the worst possibilities and run around and around with them inside our head. It�s an understandable error in thinking that includes over-generalization, magnification of negatives and minimization of positives.

In reality your bonehead WH will be entwined in your future as little or as much as you want. It will be your choice to arrange and adjust as you see fit. You simply don�t yet have the tools to arrange it to your desires. In fact you don�t even know what you truly desire yet (except the innocent past).

This is not the end of life as you know it.

Not yet.

The above quotes are not indicative of someone who is the "real deal" with people.







HBH, what are you afraid of?

HBH,

Your appt. was today. How did it go?....How did you like Steve?...Did you find the counseling to be helpful, at least more so than doing the course on your own?....

I hope you are still considering going to the Dr....taking care of yourself is of importance.....

not2fun

HBH, why did you delete your last few posts?

There are many people here who can offer you help in getting through this, but deleting posts prevents them from seeing what you are stuggling with.

Instead of steering clear of friends, I would suggest being open and honest with 1-3 close friends that you think could be "friends of the marriage".

Is there anyone in your life that you feel close enough to share this with?

Nevermind. I misread something.

I agree that the best medicine for this is openness and honesty.

People may be shocked at first, for several reasons:

1) They think they don't know anyone whose spouse is cheating - that such things only happen to "other people". Besides, everybody knows the only spouses who get cheated on are bad ones and you are not a bad spouse so how could such a thing be happening to you?

2) They expect that someone being cheated on will be too squeamish and embarrassed and guilty (see #1 above) to say anything about it.

So, let them be shocked and horrified. It may well be a relief to them that you are handling it as well as you can and that you are NOT being a party to hiding the dirty little secrets of some adulterers.

This culture of expecting the betrayed to suffer in silence while the cheaters enjoy themselves in peace has got to stop.

And if someone does mention Tiger Woods or John Edwards, you can just say, "Good. I'm glad you understand. It's been very much the same for me as it's been for Elin Woods and Elizabeth Edwards."

Don't give up yet. You can't go around this stuff. You have to go through it.

And in the same vein:

Elsewhere somebody mentioned being a fan of the E! show *Chelsea Lately.* Chelsea Handler is a comedienne and the other night she was talking about Elizabeth Edwards, about how somebody had accused EE of being a "b*tch" because she'd been caught raging to WH John about his actions with his concubine.

Chelsea said something like, "Hey, the woman's husband was sleeping around and had a baby with some tramp. Elizabeth, honey, you just go ahead and b*tch out all you want. I'm right there with ya."

Now that's a much better attitude in my book, because *maybe* this lying and cheating wouldn't be so bloody common if more people thought nobody would hide and cover for them any longer.

I'm not about to cover for anybody.

I deleted my posts because I was venting last nite...I'm pretty sure WH is reading my thread, so I deleted when I got up this morning.

I liked Steve Harley, not much happened today (he talked to WH for the majority of the time) and we have another appt tomorrow.

I read and re-read all the posts on confession. I just dont see how it helps ME. I haven't even decided yet to if/when/how we would ever even tell our kids....did all of you expose to your children as well?? I saw that several of you did...mine are all 5 and under...I dont know that I will tell them...How can I possibly tell family members if there is even a CHANCE that I won't tell my children??? If family memebers knew, there is no doubt in my mind that my children finding out would be inevitable....

What if what helps me hurts others??? I just dont know...

�If family members knew, there is no doubt in my mind that my children finding out would be inevitable....

What if what helps me hurts others??? I just don�t know...�

Hah, more magnification�

Your children will eventually find out. Much better if you are in control of the age-appropriate flows of information.

As much as I tried to shield DS, 10 at the time, he figured it out all on his own. Well, he had some discussions with his schoolmates about it before they all came to the correct conclusion. He told me one night after prayers he knew mommy had committed adultery (his words too). I was from then on completely age-appropriate honest with him.

Don�t trust your H to tell your children the genuine article truth. I don�t think in his case he will ever be capable of it. You will have to do it. Sooner or later, you will have to do it.

Later, after Plan B ended and his mom moved home again DS got angry with her about her continued reticence and secrecy. He yelled at her and said he was tired of not knowing what was going on. He said he did not actually care what was going on he just wanted to know what it was! She never got it. Not really. DS does not like his mother much now. Not even these many years later.

There are threads here about "telling the children" - maybe somebody can bring one up for you.

The general consensus is always this: The truth does not damage children (or anybody else). Lies and Secrets do the damage.

Give your children age-appropriate explanations for what happened. They've got to know they can count on YOU for the truth, no matter what it is (and even if they can't count on anyone else for it, which right now they can't).

Your children should be able to depend on you for the truth whether it's about adultery or anything else.

Hurt, you are now counseling with the Harleys. At this point I would wait and follow their advice. According to many who counsel with them, they do not always advocate exposure especially if the A is over. I am also an extremely private person and with your uncertainty I wouldwant to see what they say.

God's Blessings,

Say

What explanation did you give your children about why their nanny was no longer caring for them?

I assume she was their primary care giver.

That is a huge loss for them.

You said this nanny was stalking your children.

Would it not be in their best interests to know that this person they trusted and loved is not SAFE for them and that they should never, ever speak to her or go near her again?

HBH,

I am not suggesting that you "tell the world".

I AM suggesting that you carefully think through a few things:

1. what are you afraid of in exposing?

2. what friends could you count on for support for you and your marriage?

3. is it really in your children's best interests to not be told in age-appropriate terms why their nanny has been removed from their lives and should not be trusted?


You don't have to go around telling everyone that your husband had an affair with the nanny. But it is very good for you to have a friend or to who will help you with your own self-care, and a friend or two who will support you and WH in rebuilding your marriage.

SMB,

The two youngest were too small to even realize that she wasnt there...the oldest started going to a school program about 2 months before d-day. So WH and I took him and picked him up from program, OW had very minimal interaction with him for the 2 months before I fired her.

WH and I stayed at home following D-day (didn't return to the business where OW watched them) and then moved to a new city shortly thereafter. Oldest never asked about her and I've never explained anything.

My children are very young and there is no way I could adequately communicate the threat she posed (even to my oldest). That is why I moved.

You really cannot know to what extent an OW will go to seek revenge, ruin your life, make you hurt, etc.

You cannot predict which ones will never set foot back into your lives and which ones will go bonkers (now or months down the road).

Surely you realize the importance of having this conversation with your children?

If you do not empower them with truth, they will remain vulnerable to her if she ever decides to enter back into their lives.

I realize your children are young and cannot FULLY understand affairs, betrayals of trust, stalking, and all this "grown up" stuff means. But young children can understand that:

"daddy and OW were doing things that only married people should do and it hurt mommy very deeply. OW is not a safe person for any of us, and so we should never, ever speak to her or go near her again. If you ever see her, you must tell mommy right away."

There are many situations where the trusted nanny went apesh&$ and kidnapped and hurt the kids, if not worse.

If nothing else, tell them not to speak or be with OW at all.

There's a bit of a contradiction here:

You don't want to tell family because it will get back to your children.

You can't explain to the children about the nanny because they won't understand.

If your children aren't going to understand if you tell them about the nanny, then they won't understand if they hear something from the family either.

I don't want to tell family because I don't want to deal with it for my own reasons...yes, one of my concerns is that my children might find out (in the future, not now).

My littles ones are babies...my oldest is a toddler.

You don't want to deal with WHAT? Your family supporting you in this rough time?

You have no reason not to tell them. Exposure is very important, and your H even offered (if I remember correctly) to do it HIMSELF. EXPOSE.

We need to know why you refuse to do such a CRUCIAL thing!

I never understand these discussions and they often keep me off of MB for days if not weeks which is a good thing sometimes. My DH went NC as soon as I confronted him. We told no one except our MC, our minister, our doctor and strangely our chiropractor because we had been in a very serious accident just months before D-Day and we had all spent alot of time together. DH left it up to me but we agreed on the decision. I know my family well and any support that I might have gained from them would have been destroyed by their inability to forgive DH or ever treat him fairly again. DH has been estranged from his family for years. Our children are grown and out of the house. If I were trying to break up the A I would not have hesitated to expose but NC was never a question.

Hurt is counseling with the Harleys does it not make sense to see first what they say about this?

God's Blessings,

Say

Your reputation can be rebuilt with a family if you are WH or WW. Many have fallen from grace and rebuilt themselves. It is difficult but it is a consequence of adulterous and immoral behavior. They dug the grave themselves and now have to fill it up.

Your marriage may not be salvageable. Your SANITY may not be salvageable, if the adulterous behavior is not exposed.

If some crazy b*&$% had been stalking my children, even for a DAY, I would make darn sure my children knew that they should not GO NEAR or EVER SPEAK to the dangerous woman again.

I would also make sure that any babysitter/nanny/daycare/family/friends that watch over my children would also be informed.

Anything less is neglegent IMO. Extraordinary times calls for extraordinary measures, and an affair and stalker OW IS extraordinary times.

I think it's in the best interest of the marriage for key exposure to take place. Yes, I realize some won't do it; but I'm still convinced they give their marriage a better chance when they do. I've read this from Dr. H's writings and have spoken with him about it.

But that is not the same issue as speaking to her children and childcare providers. Informing them is about the safety of her children.

You have three children ages 2 and under???

Or is your oldest a preschooler (3-4)?

I agree with Say, in that HBH should seek advice from the Harleys on this and go with it. They may well advise her to expose, as we are here. Or they may advise something different. I think we should just let it play out with the Harleys, just in case HBH is feeling a bit pressured here.

I'm not sure how my thread on dealing with my anger as a BS has been turned into bashing me for not wanting to expose and now has spiraled into my failure as a mother. Everytime I go back and read these posts, I say to myself "I will not respond" but here is my response.

1. For those of you that are lucky enough to have a close family that you can confide in and depend on, hats off. For those of us that struggle to get through Christmas dinner with people we talk to a few times a year, the idea of telling them the most hurtful and horrific thing that has ever happened to you might, not be so appealing.

2. I have read and re-read the Harleys' exposure information. A is over. NC is in place. Exposure to the people referenced here would have no effect (that I can see...and I am going to ask Steve Harley in about 2 hours) on the past A or any future A. Rest assured, I will post Harley's answer to this question as soon as I get off the phone. If I am wrong, get the noose ready.

As for my children:


Perhaps in the excitement, you missed where my kids were with me or WH 24/7 now...so there is no one "watching over my children" now....while we were in old hometown, babysitter/nanny/daycare were all informed. There was nothing in my thread to lead you to the assumption that they were not. All I ever spoke of in terms of not wanting to "expose" was family that lives hundreds of miles away (from both OW city and my new city) and social friends.

[quote=sexymamabear]Anything less is neglegent IMO.
So, just to be clear, I am negligent for NOT telling people that do not have contact with my children on a daily, weekly or even monthly basis??? Despite the fact that I moved our family a few hundred miles away from OW, into a secured/gated community, told OW that WH left me (to stop the continued harrassment...which worked), and stay with my children 24/7 now??? Wow, I am lucky that I have managed to keep them safe this long.

Here's my personal opinion on exposing to one's own family (parents, siblings, etc.)...and I believe there is a case or two here that supports this.

I think exposing to one's own family should depend upon how the BS feels about his/her family. If they will be a source of support then by all means, expose. If not, then don't. I also didn't expose to my family (other than one sister) for similar reasons.

However, exposing to your WH's family, if they have any influence over him, I think is key. And if your own family had any influence over him, I'd say the same, regardless of how you feel about your family.

Please let us know what Steve says. He is the professional and of course you should go with what he says.

{{{{hbh}}}}},

I'll be praying for your appt. today. I think you are doing the wise thing by getting counsel from Steve. Don't forget to ask hum about the weekend seminar....

Not2fun

HbH,

What's going on with your WH....... How is he doing this week with helping you get answers to your questions?

Are the questions you have new ones or are they the same ones that just keep cycling through your mind again and again until you are ready to explode?

Your anger.... Is it helping you work through the trauma or is it only causing you to explode "at" WH?

Please know that I'm treading lightly here with these questions and do not desire to trigger you in any way. {{{{{HbH}}}}}

Thanks not2fun

tst,

WH is doing a lot better...he hasn't gotten frustrated or angry with me at all since you have been working with him.

Last night was hard, because our assignment from Steve was to focus on the "why" and you already know how far apart WH and I are on that one. But, working through it is difficult, right? But I thought WH handled it great. And in general, he is just more supportive of my "state".

My questions are usually the same...what were you thinking???? The details of his PA are just vile and I think the how/why/when/where make a big difference, he does not.

I think my anger is slowly dissipating...although WH may not see it Two big things that have/are helping me are 1) his commitment to actually do MB and work on M and 2) his attitude has changed...he doesn't say things like "you want to live in the past" or "you have to let this go"...not once since you've been talking to him...

Thanks for the support

HBH, I understand what you are saying here.

But do you not have any IRL friends who can come along side of you for support?






Dr. H says that affairs (past or present) should be exposed because it makes it harder for the WS to engage in an affair, take one underground, or start one in the future when people know.

His quote has been linked on the board many times.






I know that SH's thoughts on exposing is at times different, so maybe you'll not need that noose.





No, I didn't miss that part. But considering you have used a nanny in the past, it seems logical for readers to think you will probably have some form of childcare set up again in the future.


If I misunderstood your intent to expose/not expose to those caring for your children, I apologize.







THAT is NOT what I said. I said not telling people who are in caregiver roles for your children would be neglegent.

I think you moving your family and staying with them 24/7 is wise.

I also think you have not read enough stories here to understand the lengths some OW's go to in order to destroy a BS.


I'm sorry that you have felt attacked on your thread. Sometimes it feels that way. BTDT.

If you really want help with your anger, I suggest you not delete your venting posts. They give us insight into your struggles and we can give you advice and support. If WH chooses to read them, that's his own choice.

I don't think that Harley recoomends exposing if the affair is over. It's a tool to stop the cheating. What purpose does it serve to expose if the cheating has stopped?

An excerpt from Dr. H's newsletter:

What about exposure of an affair that took place years earlier and is now ended but recently revealed? I feel that the children, close relatives, close friends, and the lover�s spouse should be informed. Granted, it�s embarrassing to admit an affair, but publicly admitting failure is usually the first step toward redemption.

As you already know, I�m a strong advocate of honesty and openness in marriage. I call it transparency�letting your spouse know everything about you, especially your faults. But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others -- especially those who care for you the most -- should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you�holding you accountable.

HbH,

My FWH's family sounds much like yours. Everybody shows up for the holiday, doesn't talk, they don't even sit together, and leave within half an hour. However, when the A happened, they were one of the greatest support systems that we had, to our great surprise. You never know.

On a different note. This is hard, but when your H does answer your questions, please remember to thank him for being honest. I know you want to scream and rant over what he's said, but you need to make him safe so that he'll continue to be honest with you about everything for your entire life.

drgnfly

I admit, I never once told tst "thank you for being honest". I would rather have spit in his face. So the fact that I DIDN'T spit, or hit, or kick, or rant...well, that just had to be enough.

And it was.

I think it is completely wacko for a BS to say "thank you" about affair details. I know....it's the MB way. But it seems more like sick and twisted to expect that of a BS.

I think considering the topic being revealed, a BS not losing it should be quite a statement in itself.

Call me a rebel.

I think I muttered a "thank you" to H once...when I was nearly drained to death. In my head it was followed by "you MF^%$#@$%^%$." Is that ok?

You talked about me to your WH???

Sorry, just had to say it... I'll be back with some helpful info later.

h_b_h ~

When I exposed to some family and friends I did it over email and I specifically asked them NOT to call me or ask me about it but to let ME bring it up if I needed to.

This took away the fear that I would be getting tons of phone calls/emails/knocks at the front door with people asking millions of questions about the what's, where's, why's, how's.

I sent out an email like this:

"Dear Friends and Family,

I am so sorry to be doing this over email but my life has just been torn apart and I desperately need your prayers and support. I've just found out that WH has been having an affair with our former nanny and I am a mess. We are working very hard at trying to repair this, but it is the hardest thing we have ever been through. We are in intensive MC and are getting a lot of support and help from professional counselors who "specialize" in saving marriages after adultery.

I am exhausted and would appreciate no phone calls or emails asking questions right now...I need to save my energy for repairing my marriage. I simply need support and prayers. If you are able to offer those, please do. Specifically we could use help with the children...one of our assignments from our MC is to spend a lot of time together alone.

Thank you all...

~MF"

If your parents (for example) do not read email regularly, ask a close relative to inform them for you and ask them to pass on that you just cannot talk about this right now but a phone call or email saying "we are thinking about and praying for you, please let us know if you need anything" would be most appreicated.

I would not have made it through this without the support of family and friends. It was crucial in the beginning.

Just finished my part of the counseling with Steve...

He said WH doesn't get "it" yet and that it is his job to work on WH,not mine...

I think I will have to purchase a muzzle, I can not keep my mouth shut.

OK, as promised...asked Steve about exposure. First, he said there is no "stock answer" for every individual's situation. Then he said exposure serves three purposes:
1) End Affair
2) Accountability
3) Emotional Support

In my sitch, 1&2 aren't an issue, and he said 3 is up to me. And he also said that while 3 might not seem viable to me now, in the future, I might feel differently.

It takes a long time for a FWS to "get it". I was told the same thing in early sessions with Steve.

BTW...isn't he the greatest??? It was incredibly validating to talk to him and get support and to know that you ARE NOT crazy, that WH is.

Yes...even then I was channeling the power of MF.

Did SH give you some tools to help you in this area?

A muzzle really won't work

He really is...this is a completely different experience/approach than our local MC. Thank God, because I was done with counseling at that point. Steve is very encouraging and straight-forward. He is the "man with the plan". I like plans

I just have to do my part. No LBing. No LBing. No LBing. It's just so hard...because I AM SO GOOD AT IT!!!!

tst...not really "tools"...just reminded me that this has to come from a 3rd party because he will not hear it from me...and that it causes further damage to our relationship.

I get it. No purpose, only damage. Not a good thing.

God Bless you HbH.
I know you are in great pain.
I hope & pray you have someone who can comfort you when you feel pain. Someone in real life.
Someone to put their arms around you and say soothing things to you.
Sometimes that person can be BaT.
Sometimes it could be a beloved friend, or sibling.

Love can be yours, let it in.
Make room for it.

Your e-mail idea is wonderful, MF. If I had had the presence of mind to do something like that three years ago when we were going through this, I may have sent it to some family members. I am an intensely private person and did not want my M turned into a gossip circus with "friends" and family bringing over casseroles and lasagna to try to pry the gory details out of me and sneak a peak at the infidel. No moral support would have been worth that.

I have only become able in the last six months or so to comments other than an occasional question on these forums. I never was brave enough to post my story while it was happening. Lately, I have found it to be therapeutic. In that respect perhaps I am also a maverick.

God's Blessings,

Say

It is tough but keep reminding yourself that. For me, my kids were a great source of strength. I knew I had to bite my tongue at times if my family ever had a change of staying intact. If you feel the pressure building, remove yourself before you explode.

{{{{hbh}}}}},

OMG...... So am I!!!!!......

and for the record, I never thanked H either, HOWEVER he didn't answer questions for a LONG LONG time. Usually, I found information on my own accord. I might have thanked him had he been forthcoming......

Anyway,......I just wanted to say hang in there. It sounds like you found some peace I talking with Steve. And I was never a "Plan" kind of girl, but I learned from here just how useful PLANS can be....


not2fun

HBH,

I lived in perpetual trigger mode in our early recovery.

It was my biggest challenge. I could not turn off the thoughts that continuously raced through my head.

tst and I counseled with SH's sister, Jennifer. Her main focus with me was helping me work through triggers. She told me step-by-step what to do when I felt one coming on.

I can post my notes here, if that would be helpful to you.

That would be great...thanks!!!

Triggers are everywhere!! My favorite portrait of my little one is the time OW took her for the photo shoot, the first of every month I make payments on that STUPID RV, I just can't even list them...the other day I got upset because WH was drinking coffee...POSOW used to bring him his coffee.....

give it to me SMB...i need some help

Step 1: Sell the RV. Sell the RV. Sell the RV.

The triggers that can be eliminated NEED to be eliminated.

I got a call from the auto shop yesterday. WW had taken the car in for service. Total charge: $1400.

I agreed to pay for routine service and "normal" wear and tear. So, I agreed.

When WW returns the vehicle to me at the end of next month, it's sold.

MF,

Believe me, if I would I could...not alot of people stepping up to buy a $200k motorhome in this economy...

I sold both of our vehicles and got new ones...

Got rid of "offensive" furniture....

Old house is on the market

Boat and RV are "for sale" but not sold

Working on moving the office, but have to wait until lease is up...

Why couldnt WH and OW just go to fing hotel room?!?!?

Unfortunately, that wouldn't solve all your problems...the one FWH and POSOW went to is a big chain and we see them all over the place...I still trigger when I see them.

Good job on getting rid of the triggers you can, and working on getting rid of the RV and boat.

P.S. NEVER acquiesce to keeping any triggers because your H is throwing a temper tantrum over it. NEVER.

I did this for a long time and it created a LOT of resentment. I finally threw every.d*mn.trigger away and there was a huge weight lifted off my shoulders.

I held onto some that I *thought* I could deal with and eventually get over but I never did. Those eventually had to be eliminated as well, but I waited too long. My denial in how badly they were effecting me caused further damage and added to my anger.

MF...

WH tried that for a short while...I bought him a Rolex for his BD...OW screwed him for his BD... He wanted to keep that watch so badly...

Jewelry is hard for me...i haven't worn my wedding ring in months...that's another trigger story for another day

Oh, and then there's the fun story where OW broke into our house, stole a diamond ring of mine and wore it as her wedding ring for 2 months (she told OWH that she had "lost" her wedding ring and her friend let her borrow this one)....

I think I should write a book...maybe that would be therapeutic...

I dunno, maybe they did. You need to ask him. Once you have the LBs under control, that is. Just write it down for now.

Whhhaaaat???

This OW was obviously of the bunny-boiler variety.

I hate to see you triggered by these things. How do you feel about charitable donation?

I happen to be the chairman of a "For Profit" organization called the "Association for getting Gack1 a boat and RV"

Our people would be happy to take these painful reminders off your hands, and I assure you they would be put to use by a good family. It may even be tax deductible, what do you say?

So good to see you laugh, Hurt.

God's Blessings,

Say

Does that mean we can count on your support?
You'lll get an attractive wall plaque noting your generous donation and a two page color article in our by yearly news letter.

If you act in the next 15 minutes, you'll also get a free 1yr subscription to "Gack1's family adventures" which chronicle our family's use of your RV an Boat!!

So don't delay, Call today!!!



Yup

Gack, you are cracking me up!


HBH,

Jennifer told me that when I felt a trigger coming on, I should immediately head to the bathroom so that I could work through it without causing damage to my recovery efforts. I wrote her notes down on an index card and kept it in my bathroom, so that I could talk myself through the triggers.

The point of it all is to teach yourself how to take control of your taker and get your rational mind back in control. When a true trigger happens, there are physiological changes taking place in our bodies that cause us to instinctively go into fight or flight mode. It sounds like you head into fight mode often. My instinct is flight mode. I turn inward, put up my emotional barriers so that he can't hurt me anymore.

Either way, the result is the same. It is an obstacle to the intimacy that we are striving to create once again in our marriages.

So here are the notes. They may sound corny, but when you're out of your mind, you need very simple steps.


Trigger Card

When FWH is open and honest about something that upsets me and I become triggered, I will:

1) Make it safe for him to be honest by saying, �Thank you for being honest.�

2) Run to the bathroom to process the information. The �rush� of adrenaline is my signal.

�Brain is being flooded with chemicals that put me into survival mode (flight or fight).
�Higher brain is turned off and lower (instinct) brain takes over (the taker).
�The Taker says, �I have a right to be angry and hurt. He deserves what I�m saying.�
�Protect him from any lover busters.
�Say something like:

�I need to go to the bathroom and figure this out.�
�Sometimes I get a blast from the past. I need to train myself to stay in the present.�
"I will go for 15-30 minutes to work through this and figure out why I am triggered.�
�I�ll be back with an �I need�� or an �I�d love it if�� statement.
�Plopping these negative feelings on you is not going to help you or me.�
�I am not shutting you out. I am protecting you from my irrational side.�

3) Calm myself down by saying:

��I have a new relationship with FWH based on openness and honesty.�
��He was honest and open with me, meeting my emotional need.�
��He�s going to listen to me and respond with a desire to do what I need.�

4) Determine what is happening RIGHT NOW that is causing me to feel this way.

�Love buster
�Unmet emotional need
�Blast from the past

5) Formulate an �I need�� or �I�d love it if�� statement if it is a love buster or unmet need.

6) Either tell FWH or write down and give to FWH:

��I need��
��I�d love it if��
��I had a blast from the past, and now I am in the present.�

You could also carry an index card in your purse in case you are out somewhere.

As I mentioned earlier, I wasn't so hot at saying "thank you for being honest".

When I'm on the verge of puking, my head is spinning, and I feel like I'm going to faint, "thank you for being honest" just doesn't seem doable.

It takes time to overcome the triggers, and in early recovery, they are so intense that sometimes, you cannot get yourself to respond in the best interest of your marriage.

The hardest part of doing those steps was being willing. Sometimes my taker worked excessively hard to protect my giver. But with practice, I got better at being willing to think through the trigger to regain my sanity.

And the more tst worked his side of recovery and the more he demonstrated his commitment and love for me, the more capable I became at working through my triggers.

You've done good at eliminating many of them. It's great that you were readily willing to ditch so much stuff. It amazes me how many BS's don't want to give up the car, or the furniture, or the house, or the clothing, or whatever. They say they shouldn't HAVE to. OF COURSE they shouldn't. They shouldn't have to deal with infidelity. But they do. And holding on to things that cause hurtful memories, only keeps us triggered.

Thanks for the info SMB...I will start to put it into practice ASAP.

Ok, so....WH assignment tonite from Steve was to understand what the A did to me...apparently he thinks WH lacks empathy...which is what some posters hit on early on in my thread....

So, Steve told WH that he has counseled people who have lost a child and their spouse's A was more difficult to deal with...

WH told me tonite that "if that's true (about A being more devastating than loss of a child), then I don't get it yet"

WH says tonite that he doesnt feel like I'm "trying" because I won't embrace MB concepts....

Ok, I'll bite..."What MB concept(s) are you referring to dear WH?"

WH response "Have you read at all about Plan A and how you are supposed to be treating me?"

My head started spinning around and green s*%t comes out of my mouth...picture Linda Blair in The Exorcist...

My response "yes i've read about Plan A and your GD right that I'm not doing any of that, or Plan B or anything else to get you to see the light"

OK, LBing I know I know I know...

But for God's sake....

The best Plan A that I have in me right now is for him to wake up with the same appendages he went to bed with...

I'm going to have to re-read Plan A...I thought this was the carrot/stick stuff...which I admit I glossed over because there was no "ending the affair"...it ended the day I found out...so I didn't have to play nice and then "go dark"

OH NO HE DIDN'T......

excuse me for a moment.....

HBT,

I KNOW you are reading along so I am going to address this to YOU.....

HBH is NOT in Plan A or in Plan B. Those are tools for ENDING an affair. They are not for YOU to be holding the very person YOU destroyed hostage to your whims. They are NOT meant to be used to for YOU to make this any easier on YOU.

YOU are in RECOVERY, which is so very different from PLan A and B.

YOU need to concentrate on the assignments that Steve gave you, NOT on what ENs of YOURS that are or are not being met....

At this point YOU are damn lucky HBH has not thrown your [censored] out. YOU are damn lucky that she is even WILLING to try recovery......

And if you even think for one moment that this isn't as bad as losing a child or rape, well then YOU are damn lucky you haven't experienced those......

I can tell you from personal experiance that having a child molested, put on a stand in court in front of that monster and hearing all of the gory details of what he did to her, not to mention how he RAPED and SODOMIZED his stepdaughter was not nearly as bad as my husbands affair..... and I nearly had a nervous break down from that....

BUSTER you better get your chit together or the only PLAN you will be getting will be Plan FU......

{{{{{HBH}}}}}}}

I am sorry that you had to hear such stupid drivel....... Nothing like a WAYWARD using the tools to help your marriage heal used against you.....

Not2fun

That one belongs in the WS Hall of Shame. Really.

Any (F)WS who would say that to his BS is still in 100% arrogant selfish wayward mode and hasn't got the slightest clue of what they've done and what they stand to lose.

Again - this man thinks that his mere presence is enough and that this marriage is his to keep or throw away. He has NO idea what he is risking, and probably won't until it's gone.

Which it may well be the way he's going. I don't think anything else will give him a ticket for the Clue Bus.

The back and forth of this is really enough to break me...

I thought the last few days he was sincere in his efforts...but based on what he said tonite, I think he was just "going along" to see if Steve could help me "get over it"...

I want to run away...

Don't give up yet. Very often, a WS has to hit bottom before he figures things out. Your only job will be to LET him hit bottom and hit it hard. All you'll have to do is stay out of his way.

This is very much like dealing with a drug addict (and the Harleys will tell you that.) Addicts care nothing for who they hurt. They have zero empathy. They care only about themselves and their next fix. You can't talk them into, or out of, anything.

Sound familiar?

And the only way an addict ever "wakes up" - if they do - is when they hit bottom and realize what they're losing.

So let him hit. This is something he's got to figure out on his own. And if he doesn't, then you and your children will go on to make a life without him - no doubt with a new man who will love you and will value you.

Just let him hit. You won't have to do a thing.

Well, sure he is. The crack addict is still hoping he can somehow go back to his crack. See my post above. Please don't give up yet. In some ways, this is about to get a whole lot easier.

Thanks Mulan I'm not giving up...at least he's here.

AND he just apologized for the "Plan A" comment...he said he's just frustrated and is having a hard time dealing with everything.

Well, it ain't no pinic on my side of the fence...

LOL - my FWW made a similar comment to me early on in our recovery. What others here have told you is correct - Plans A and B are not "recovery" plans, but plans to end active As.

Your WS is not unique in his ability to cherry-pick from MB concepts those activities which are of benefit to him only. They're in "me-me" mode.

hbh,

Is BaT still reading his thread? I can paste some links and posts to his thread or put them on yours if you want to print them and give them to him...they may help him with some empathy. Let me know.

raven,

he still reads his thread...just won't post anymore???

If you wouldn't mind, please post to his thread...that way it wont come from me. Steve said yesterday that BaT won't get "it" if it comes from me.

The funny thing is, yesterday, BaT even said something like "if your pain is anything close to [pain from death of a child--Steve's example to him] then I don't get it". It was almost like he can't imagine my pain from his A to be that bad, so he is really struggling with the whole empathy thing.

Will do hbh. How are you feeling this morning?

HBH, Steve is right. We are counseling with him as well and he has told me that I need to look at him (Steve) as our guide and my husband as my teammate. The team member can not lead the other team member. They need the guide.

Steve is great in this role. He instinctively grasps how to relate to each individual in the best way possible...what motivates each individual and how to speak to them.

Not a good morning for me because I got so upset last nite I can't take the back and forth from WH.

It feels like WH is here and trying to work on M because its the "right thing to do" and not what he "wants to do". So as long as he's thinking about every word that comes out of his mouth, we're ok...but if he lets his guard down--we are right back to square one.

Everything is just so sterile and planned....its not hard to tell the difference between the affection from someone who WANTS to give you affection and the affection from someone who thinks they HAVE to give you affection...

Blah Blah Blah...I've got AD's now due to a prior posters suggestion...haven't started taking them, but I guess I need to...

I'd love to tell you when the rollercoaster stops but it's a long, long ride. I'm still on it but it does get better. There will be days you feel hopeless...that for every step forward, you take 2 or maybe even 20 steps back. Don't get discouraged...that is normal...unfortunately.

Have you looked into getting any help with the kids? Even if it's part time, it may give you some breathing room.

Start the ADs, that will be very helpful.

BaT is still very foggy. Ignore him.

Do you guys know you really shouldn't be talking about the A much? Except for the assignments Steve gives you, try not to bring it up. It's doing no good because he is still so freaking foggy. The only thing that is really being accomplished is raising your blood pressure and you don't need that right now.

How about the MBW? Have you talked to Steve about that? What does BaT think about it?

We went and it was awesome. Ours was in San Francisco so we were able to have some "fun" too...please look into it!

WH and I are working out of the house since the move so I am always here with them, but I do have some help with children and housekeeping.

We are interviewing for a full-time position and have been for 2 months...its just hard

I know we shouldn't...its very difficult though because we spend 24 hours a day together and let me just say, s&%t happens We haven't talked about it at all today though...other than he asked why I am being quiet. I'm just tired....

I haven't asked Steve to talk to BaT about MBW, but I will though.

To Everyone: Thanks again for the support!

I know it's hard not to talk about the A right now...I know that very well.

Just encouraging you to recognize that he is FOGGY and no matter what you say right now, you are not going to get through to him.

As Steve said, he doesn't "get it" yet and every time he opens his mouth about the A all you are hearing is FOGTALK which is incredibly frustrating and hurtful.

It really is frustrating!!!

It's like there is no emotion with WH...choosing to stay with his famliy is the "logical" and "rational" choice...Glad to know that I "look good on paper" and that he is such a stand-up guy for putting his family before himself.

He will never admit it to me, mainly because there are too many guns in our home, but I know that he pats himself on the back for choosing to stay with us. Like he is sacrificing himself for the good of our family.

He has even gone so far as to tell me...and its been a couple of months, so I don't want to get this wrong...BUT something like "I don't know how many good years I'll have left". Translation= I don't know how much longer I will have 6 pack abs and all the girls falling at my feet, so I want to go and live it up now, while I still can.

This man is not my husband.

HBH,

I don't have much time at the moment but I just wanted to tell you that I think you are doing quite well. I am so glad to hear about the ADs.

Anyway just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you.....I apologize if my rant last night hurt YOU.....

Hang in there....

Not2fun

Ignore stupid comments like that hbh. If he starts spewing garbage, leave the room or tell him to zip it....leaving the room is probably more MB friendly. The point is don't sit there and listen to the nonsense. Many WSs are desparate not to look in the mirror and see their sack of sh&t reflection. You are not his jailer nor has a gun to his head. You have to learn to shake the crap off.

HBH,

""he said he's just frustrated and is having a hard time dealing with everything""

What in the fricken world does this boy have to be frustrated about?? He should be hanging his tatted up head in shame and begging your forgiveness.

Reminds me of a song..."Ain't too proud to beyeeg, sweet dahlin.."

Sounds like his pride along with his immaturity is getting in the way of his empathy...there's that word again.

The only thing he should be frustrated about is with himself and his bonehead actions...and his continued actions and or inactions!! The arrogant over the hill jock blaming it all on something or some-one else.

TAKE RESPONSIBLITY FOR THE DEED, DUDE.

SERIOUSLY.

kirk

It's no secret that WH is driving me crazy with his martyrdom. But I really think I need to re-focus my energy.

We have an appointment with Steve tomorrow and I am going to run this by him:

HbH priorities:

1) Kids
2) HbH
3) Business
4) M and BaT (WH)

Pre-A it was this:

1) M and BaT (WH)
2) Kids
3) Business
4) HbH

I just feel like BaT and M have to take a backseat until BaT figures some of this out on his own.

Just wanted some experienced POV on what BS should be doing with M while WS is still in la-la land (not with PA, but with himself).

P.S. I'm still 100% committed to M and MB, I just feel like i'm spinning my wheels until BaT makes a decision.

THANK YOU AGAIN TO STRANGERS WHO LISTEN

You are still very early in this. Hubby is in the fog, and will be for awhile. But as long as there is no contact, things are very hopeful. WS's change back to how they used to be, almost like magic.

Hang in there and have hope.

I'm not a vet, so can't give you much of an experienced POV, and certainly not from a BS' standpoint. But FWIW:

In my own experience, very early after d-day (within our first 2 joint sessions), our MC asked both Trust_Will_Come & I to honestly self-assess our priorities, pre-A vs. post-A. Bottom line, we both realized that we'd not been putting each other first pre-A -- neither of us -- and we decided that we couldn't say we were giving R our best shot if we didn't do so post-A. So since then, our M has been priority #1 for each of us. Ahead of the kids. Ahead of our jobs. It was a conscious & mutual decision -- not just abstractly, but specifically, in the efforts we made to carve out UA time, and in changes we made to better meet specific ENs that we'd identified. (We judged that if the marriage tanked, the kids would suffer long-term, and our job performance wouldn't be so hot either.)

I'm not sure if that's relevant for your case, and true, you've gotta take care of yourself & the kids; but I'd personally be leery of consciously giving the M a lower priority. As anyone can attest who remembers some of my first my posts from August (over 7 months post d-day), I still sure had some of the fog thing going on; but seeing how my wife had both oars in the water & was "all-in", helped reassure me that my efforts weren't going to be in vain, as long as I kept rowing & kept trying to understand things more clearly & to do better by her.

BTW, I just tore BaT another one for his "Plan A" remark. I am rooting for you guys. I do hope he gets it soon. Hang in there, HbH.

While WH is still in lalaland, you continue to work on yourself. Acknowledge what your shortcomings in the marriage have been and work to eliminate them. There always room for improvement in all of us. Take care of yourself and your kiddos.

Try this one,

1) God
2) Marriage - HbH & BaT (Two are one)
3) Family
4) Business


This is the GOAL you're working toward!

This bothered me too. To this day I sometimes wonder if my wife would have returned to the marriage if OM had two penny's (Or two brain cells) to rub together.


He does, he believes he is wonderful for the sacrifice he is making for you.

My wife was the same way, she was actually PROUD of herself for making the RIGHT decision and sacrificing HER happiness for her marriage. She would almost brag about it to her family.


It took months before I even sow a hint of genuine remorse.

Listen, this worries me.
From this statement, and reading your thread and you WH's thread....

I truly, honestly believe this man WILL cheat on you again if he has the opportunity. The only way to prevent it is with very, extraordinary precautions. I think the only way this man will not cheat, is if he never, ever has the opportunity to again.

The repercussions from an affair will not be enough to prevent it. Having another affair is a gamble he WILL be willing to take!

Have you considered that maybe this IS your husband? And that the man you thought you married is a fantasy?

I really do get a bad feeling from him, and I absolutely hate the pain you are in and don't want you to go through it ever again.





On a business note.

My people still have not heard from your people about the boat and RV. This is a little dis concerning considering we have already had a slab poured for parking the RV next to the Associations building, and rented a slip for the boat at a local marina. Also, some specifications on the RV would be helpful, mainly it's GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) so we can estimate it's towing ability.

Please have your people expedite this information to the association ASAP. We are very exited about this generous donation and look forward to finishing up the paperwork.

I diagree with Gack, I don't think he is that different than many other WH's out there (some are just smart enough enough not to VERBALIZE it). My FWH just mostly kept his mouth shut, but I don't know, he could have been THINKING many of these things.

That Plan A comment was the kicker...that just shows that there is nothing in his brain right now except fog. What a dumb*ss. I would have burst out laughing at the stupidity of it, but that is probably a LBer too. Better than kicking his teeth out though.

You are right TST...I've asked WH repeatedly to attend church again...at first, he flat out said "I don't want to go to church" now he just says OK, but never actually will do it. It's just not the life he wants right now...he WANTS to be on our boat, drinking and living the high-life.

and I know I should be putting M next...but it is SO consuming...I feel like all I do is read MB and SAA and LB book and try to focus on BaT...and I know I am not taking care of myself, kids or business like I should. I don't know...its just a struggle for me to put this effort when he is still in LaLaLand...

How DARE YOU!!!!






Kidding



I hope I am wrong about her WH, I just want to put the possability out there, thats all.

Of course I have, everday...I know I come across here as a complete basket-case; but in another life, I was actually quite coherent. But, I am going to give him the chance to straighten this out. I have three LITTLE children. They need their dad. Make no mistake, if there weren't children involved, I wouldn't be on this forum. But there are, and I am



You are a comedian...maybe in this life, maybe in another, but a comedian no less Thanks for the smile!

MF...that doesnt sound right...Married,

I can promise you that my response (I think I posted it earlier in my thread) was definitely a LB

I do have hope for BaT....but I also wish I had a crystal ball...

I guess that means no RV?
How about just the boat then?

My pleasure.


http://www.amazon.com/NOVICA-White-quartz-crystal-ball/dp/B00012NZCW

HbH,

You're right... it's exhausting!

A couple things to remember.
Focusing on your marriage includes taking care of yourself. This includes Spiritually, Physically & Mentally. You don't place your marriage "above" your health, they are to go hand in hand. Caring for your own health is your responsibility. You must bring your health and well being "to" the marriage.

Find a way to get back to church. The Spiritual nurturing needed for recovery is going to be a critical ingredient for helping BaT cut through the fog.

Thoughtful requests go a long way. Try...... "I would love it if we visited a church together this weekend."

Begin thoughtful requests with ....... I would love it if.........

hbh ~ I always recommend the book "Power of a Praying Wife". I have read it a few times and for Lent this year, DH and I are doing this together: I am re-reading this and DH is reading "Power of a Praying Husband". Our plan is to get in bed 15 minutes earlier every night, do our reading, and tell each other what our daily prayer each other for the next day will be.

Even if BaT isn't interested right now, I still suggest that you get this book. It's very powerful.

HbH,

Actually, you don't come across as a basket-case AT ALL!!!! From what I can tell, you seem like a very successful, competitant, strong woman.....and that woman has had her world turned topsy-turvy and is not sure HOW to deal with that. It seems like you have always known what you want and what to do in all types of situations and that make dealing with WH's affair difficult for you (I may have this wrong, this is just my observation based on what you have posted....). In my judgement, I think that this has made it harder for you to be vunerable to yourself and others. I also think that given WHO the OW was and how integrated into your lives she was (she was your nanny after all....) makes it even MORE difficult for you to be vunerable and ask for help. I completely understand this......It just makes my heart cry for you.....

That being said, I am quite proud of how you are taking the bull by the horns and doing all that you can to help yourself, which in the long run will better for your children and your M.

And as far as basket-cases go, we have ALL BEEN THERE, DONE THAT. There are MANY MANY MANY basket-case moments all over my old thread. I know some of the others who have posted to you went through the same things.

You have been through a trauma. It is not an exaggeration by any means, and if anyone dare tells you different, hold true to yourself and what you know. People try to minimize adultery because they unless they have been through it, they truly do not know of the pain and heartache it inflicts.....

You will get through this. I promise you that. I am 2 yrs removed from H's affair. Some days are good, some are GREAT, some are bad, and some moments are down right torturous. In fact, yesterday afternoon was really bad. I was hit with a trigger from a rather nasty song on the radio (it was "their" song..... ). It really shook me up. Something that really doesn't happen to much any more, but it did. BUT I survived, got through it, with a bit of help from H. And in time your H, hopefully, will do the same. It was only recently that H could fully appriciate how awful his affair was.

I agree with the advice about your talks about the affair. You should try and limit it. You can come here and let us know what's going through your head.

I also wanted to suggest journaling. It helped me a ton. I didn't journal at all pre-A but did so during and immediately afterward. It helped me to put on paper my emotions of the moment and gave me way to release them.

As as far as BaT is concerned, good gosh he's still foggy, but that too will disapate in time. And when it does, the crash is pretty awful........I know for me, that I handled it pretty well but I also had a lot of empathy for H.

Continue on with your counseling with Steve (how'd it go BTW??) and keep on posting here, and you'll do just fine......

not2fun

Thanks for the encouragment N2F...Your assessment is dead on ...I've mapped my life out and I've always had every little detail worked out...and now I just feel....well, like every BS-I'm sure, that the rug has been pulled out from under me.

But I'm going to get through this...someone posted a thread earlier today of the effects of divorce on children...not happening if I can do anything about it. BaT is here. His attitude about being here makes me want to strangle him sometimes, but he IS here.

And then there are days like today, he's been as close to his "old" self as he could be with all of this hanging over him. He's been attentive, affectionate, joked around a little...

About an hour ago, our oldest child mentioned his favorite "place" in our old hometown...Bat got VERY upset (crying) because of what he'd taken away from the kids...so its not that BaT lacks empathy, its that he lacks empathy for me

"White quartz crystal ball 2" W 2" L
Currently unavailable.
We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock."


Thatls pretty funny...

HbH,

What are the ages of your children again? And what genders?

Not2fun

Yeah, Gack is something else...

I have 3 kids too. Dd16, Dd13, and Ds11. They are amazing kids, MOST of the time....

Dd16 is becoming such a wonderful young woman. She has her life "mapped" out too. I'm not sure if you caught it but she was sexually molested by a neighbor when she was 9. She still struggles with that but I firmly believe it has made her into a most empathetic and sensitive person. She is a very generous and caring soul.

Dd13 is such a tomboy that for years I would joke around that when older sis was born she took all the " girlie" genes so there wasn't any left for Dd13. She is EXTREMELY strong-willed and tempermental, but when she is smiling and laughing the world smiles with her. She is an extremely gifted artist. You can always find her doodles and papers EVERYWHERE. She has always had difficulty making friends but this year she has turned a new leaf. She very smart as well. The world will be hers fir the taking some day!

Ds11 is a precious boy. He had the most amazing expressions and you can always tell what he's feeling just by looking at his face. He struggles in school and has ADD, but he tries very hard. He is very kind to all of his friends and really knows how to find fun in everything. He keeps me laughing and is the most affectionate out of the three. I sometimes wonder if it's a boy thing or the youngest thing.

They were a BIG reason I fought for my marriage like I did......when H left us it was very hard on them.

Not2fun

N2F,

your kids sound amazing It really does make you look at the bigger picture when you think about how your decisions affect your children (which makes it even harder to accept what a WS will do, WITHOUT thinking of his/her children).



I have two boys and one girl:3, 2, and 1. They are all perfect and make me strive to be better than I am.

Some WS CREATE children in there affair, that's what an OC is. An OC can add a whole new dimension of fun to Affair/Recovery.

Gack,

Wow, what a hand to be dealt...but you are a fighter

I will keep my chin up...and I'm sorry for the pain that must have caused you, I can't imagine...

Not sorry enough to donate the Boat and RV, but still....

HbH,

WoW.....such precious babies!!! And I thought I had mine close together...

I love babies and toddlers!!!! But I've also learned I really love every stage. I think I am one of those who enjoyed each part of my kids childhoods....... Of course I'm not out of the teen era yet so check back with me I few years!!!!

How was your appt. with Steve yesterday? Did you discuss the MBW?

As far as BaT doing well yesterday, it would behoove your recovery to thank him for it. While I know that HE got you all in this mess, it is still work for him as well. I'll comment more on this later after work..... But when you comment on the good moments it gives you all boost to keep on powering through this. It's hard,I know,so enjoy the good moments when you can.....

Do you all have anything planned for this weekend? Try to get some UA time in wtb just the two of you. Doesn't have to be anything over the top. A movie or a comedy club perhaps.....something that keeps your mind busy yet together....

Not2fun

Greeaattt!

Now what am I supposed to do with a 20'x50' concrete pad with power, water, and sewer connections. This is very upsetting.


Thats it, your off my Christmas card list!



Ok, back to the subject at hand.

Why has BaT stopped posting?

He's been emailing back and forth with a FWH off the forum...I think BaT just doesnt like to hear that he's "in a fog" or "doesn't get it"...

We talked about it a little on Wednesday...I said "BaT, if Steve Harley tells you that you don't "get it" and forum posters say you "lack empathy" and I tell you that you're dismissive...don't you think there is something to it????

He says no, because he knows full well what he did.

SO, I remind him of my grandmother's death (about 2 years ago and VERY hard for me) and how supportive and empathetic he was...BaT started crying...he has always been very emotional about me (which is why this apathy about PA is so hard to understand)...and he just started talking about how worried he was about me at the funeral and how he would have taken that pain for me if he could....

So, here is where we are at...IF BaT remembers back to a time when he adored me, saw me in pain, then he can't even talk about it today without getting upset.....BUT if BaT thinks about PA and what it has done to me...not so much...

hbh - the pain of your grandmother's death was caused by an outside factor, so it was "safe" for BaT to be supportive and empathetic.

But the pain over the affair is directly caused by BaT. If he faces up to that he will be overwhelmed with guilt, and so he is putting up a wall to keep the facing-up and the guilt as far away as possible.

Every WS does this. Some don't have what it takes to tear down that wall and they run away instead. If BaT does tear down the wall, that's when he'll be a FWS instead of a WS.

Walls keep guilt out but fog in.

Thanks Mulan...what you're saying makes sense...

Does it just take time for WS to tear down the wall? Or is it more than that?

The only thing Steve has told me (not sure about BaT) is that its not my job to make BaT get "it"....

Well, mine never did tear down the wall. That would have meant giving up the ho collection first and he wasn't about to do that. He ran away instead.

It's a choice. Usually WS, like any other addicts, have to hit bottom and fully understand what they will be losing. If they really don't care, they'll just run away. If they do care - well, then things will start to get better.

That's why Steve told you it's not your job to see that BaT "gets it." He's got to figure that out on his own, and the only way he will ever do that is to understand that he really could lose his family if he refuses to get off the fence.

Right now he thinks he is the one who gets to make the choice to stay in the family or not. That was the very first vibe I picked up from his posts.

What he doesn't get is that if he stays on the fence, he will wake up one morning to discover that the choice has been made for him and he no longer has a family.

That's because even a woman who loves you has her limits when it comes to the emotional abuse and neglect that a fence-sitter dishes out.

This is what he needs to "get", but he's going to have "get it" on his own.

If the FWH he is emailing off the forum is who I think he is, his story is one of someone who absolutely hit rock bottom before rebuilding his life. And even if it's not that person, there are quite a few FWH's here who have similar stories. The common demoninator is that they all found a way to tear down that wall.

HBH,

Everyone says your H is in the "fog", but by definition I do not think he is.

The fog is what a wayward is in that is still under the spell of the endorphines and dopamines secreted by the brain because of the contact the WW still has with the OP. That is why fogbabble come out of the WW's mouth. Why they say and behave in such a stupid fashion. They are not thinking right, because they are still in the trance of the affair.

From what you have said, once the A was discovered, your boy was totally through with the bimbo and was agreeable to work on the M. I believe you even said there was no withdrawal required with the guy. So I do not think he is in any kind of fog.

This, unfortunately is how and who he is.

If I may go back to the "jock culture" theme again. The jocks see women as sport, that a man and woman get together for some hard core physical activity. It is all physical. It is exciting and dangerous too, but to the jock, it is all physical. No mental activity is required, no emotions, love, etc. Almost like going to the gym for a workout.

So now that it is over, he looks back on it like string of football games that he enjoyed.

That is why he is over it so easily, and why he can't empathize with what you are feeling. I think the only way he might "get it" is if the tables were turned and he was faced with YOU being physically with another man.

IMHO

kirk

Dr. Harley's opinion is this process begins after this length of time....

HbH,

Yes, it is obvious that your H still has quite a bit of foggy thinking!

This fogginess can and will improve as you both continue to work the MB program!

I'm stunned with Kirks suggestion that after 1 week of coaching with The Harley's that he has diagnosed your H as always being this way?? This is a process not an event!



How are you doing HbH?

tst,

thanks for checking We had a counseling session with Steve on Monday and have another one tomorrow.

Steve asked if I could see progress with BaT and I answered definitely. The past three weeks have been completely different than the past 5 months...not that BaT is "there" yet, but at least he is trying.

We had to come back to our old hometown this week for business, so its not easy on either one of us. Our office is "trigger-central" for me, but we are doing MUCH better than we were last month when we came. I printed out SMB's post on triggers...and just try to stay busy.

TST,

I was talking about the FOG, my brotha, not withdrawal,

If we say someone is in the fog or has foggy thinking, this thinking is tainted or convoluted by the trance the OP if putting on the wayward. They say foggy stupid illogical things because the endorphines and dopomines are saturating the WW brain with "good vibrations", causing that WW to not think nor speak like a normal, sane person.

Now WITHDRAWAL, now that is another thing entirely, and I totally agree with your (Dr. H's) definition of WITHDRAWAL.


But did not HBH indicate that there was no real withdrawal in evidence right after Dday?
Correct me if I am wrong on this, (I know you will).

I'm just saying...

kirk

HbH,

I meant to check in on ya yesterday too.....my bad....

I'm glad to hear things are going BETTER. This all will take time. LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of time. And both of your parts. There are three healings going on here. Yours, his, and together. I really do have hope for the two of you.

EVEN with all his fogginess (so far, everything he has said, is not any different than any other WS has said. Even in Recovery.....its sorta like all the fogbabble we hear in an active affair....), I did get the impression from his FEW posting that he really does want this marriage to work out. And that he loves you.

And if YOU can remember the man he once was, it will help you.

Also, try an remember that he is in pain as well (and not from missing OW...). It takes a big fall to do what he has done. And its even hard to face it and OWN it.

Did you talk to Steve about MBW, yet?...I haven't been, but have heard so many good things about it, I know it would be worth it for you two......

Anyway, keep posting and if you have any questions feel free to ask....

not2fun

***edit***

Moderator's Note: Do NOT edit posts after a moderator edit. Thank you.

N2F,

""its sorta like all the fogbabble we hear in an active affair....),""

Yeah, kinda like that only, like, DIFFERENT!!

How about JOCKBABBLE??

The man is over the affair!! He hates the nannybimbo probably as much as HBH.

He is having trouble realizing the depth of the hurt and heartache he has loosed on his wife.

He cannot comprehend how terribly destructive his actions have been on his wife, nor, down deep does he really want to.

Hence the frustration.

imho

kirk

Krusht,

If you want to bump BaT's thread and point these things out and ridicule him over there..... so be it. But coming on a BS'es thread and posting these comments is not helpful to her recovery at all.

How do your posts help this marriage?

What are your suggestions for HbH?

How would you suggest she use MB to continue the successful progress they are making?

t/j

tst...your siggy lines make me chuckle.

JUST because the affair ended doesn't mean the side effects ended too.....I'll never forget Mimi constantly reminding me that her H didn't fully come out of the fog for 9 months, and it was a full year before the last of the fog disappeared. In my sitch, it was a bit longer. Him hating the OW doesn't really have anything to do fogbabble. The fogbabble has more to do with the justification of the affair and the brain trying to work AROUND the awful deed they have done......


Yes I realize this.....BUT its because he is too engrossed in his OWN pain at this point. The pain of doing this repulsive act......


This whole statement is DJ. If he "really" didn't want to, then why is he counseling with Steve Harley???.....

I think he does know what destruction he has done, but he's not there yet. It all takes time.....And in the grand scheme of things, its only been 5 months, which is not all that long, even though to the BS it sure as heck feels like it....

t/j

SMB,

I loved what you posted to HbH about handling the triggers. It is some of the best techniques I've seen in these parts. You should consider copying those onto Mark's "Managing Triggers" thread. I know I booked mard them for when ever they may come in handy.....

Hope all is well with you two. My prayers are still with you in this time of need..... (TST, could you pass this on to SMB for me??...thanx....)

not2fun

TST,

The point of my reply is that the guy is not in a foggy state.

The guy needs to come to grips with what he has done to his family and his wife.

I don't think I am ridiculing him. I am taking what HBH says about him and defining him the way I see him. He is not foggy spouting fog-babble, and if you think he is, then your idea of the FOG and mine are different. **edit**

HBH knows better than any of us what he is. My posts help her, as do everyone's posts help her, get different perspectives on her sitch. Sometimes the participants are way too close to the action to see the different angles.

Help

**edit**

""How would you suggest she use MB to continue the successful progress they are making?""

Gosh, **edit** they are counseling with Dr. H, which is about as best as one can do, so I think they are doing everything humanly possible as far as MB goes.

**edit**

We will need to agree to disagree on this....

Fog/withdrawal/bassakward thinking.... I mean they all run hand in hand with a wayward and I use the term fog to describe a wayward that is acting out of character. And yes, HbH has said this was out of character for her H pre-A. Sorry, but I just see him as being in a typical fog.



**edit**
Just ideas and support that do not include ridicule.

Thanks not! SMB had a very tough time with the loss of her friend. Sent her all the way back to her D-Days, but we worked throught it all together and find ourselves doing well today.

TST et al,

""Edited by Revera (02/23/10 11:41 PM)
Edit Reason: TOS - disrespectful""

I truly was not trying to be dis-respectful to you, maybe a little smarty pantsy is all.

I apologize if it got out of hand. And for the thread jack taking attention away from the thread.

Geeze I havn't been MOD-edited for quite a while!!

kirk

((((HBH))))),

It's been awhile. How are things holding up???.....Hope things are still progressing well.....Remember, we are here if you need anything....

not2fun

NOT,

thanks for checking in

Well, the last session with Steve was 2-24...he gave BaT a "timeline" assignment...which BaT will never do...and I told Steve that, but he gave it to BaT anyway...

Basically, BaT isn't going to to do it, and Steve said he needs to do it before we have another counseling session, so that's where its at...

Things were really going as good as they could given the sitch, up until that point...and now every day that goes by is just a reminder that I'm not worth the effort...

We have fought every day for the last four days I am just SO angry all over again...its like I'm back to square one. There were a few weeks when I really thought he was at least going to try and put this back on track and do the MB thing...
But then when Steve gave the timeline assignment to him, I knew it was over because I'd been asking for that since day one. I tried to explain to BaT tonight at dinner why I'm SO angry now...To me it's simple, it's an absolute slap-in-the-face for him to say he wants to stay and work on this...then work on it with MB and Steve...until he is told to do something he doesnt want to do...and then he's finished with it. What message does that send to me??? That our family isn't worth the effort...

I went in my little boy's room tonite to watch him while he slept...and I see the plain taupe walls of a rental house. This is not my son's room. My son's room was brightly painted with character decals, with custom shelves for his toys and a custom fan that was decorated with his favorite character and a specialty bed of his favorite character. But we had to leave that home....I don't know how BaT even looks in the mirror...

It is not normal to hate someone this much...it is not good and it is not normal...

You are angry because you have been wronged, this is normal.

And he won't look in the mirror. Waywards don't do it because, OMG, they might see something that does not absolutely thrill them and if they do THAT, well then, it's a mortal sin to them to not be thrilled by everything.

HBH,

I'm sorry to hear of this turn of events. Have you asked BaT WHY he hasn't done the assignment? And if so what is his excuses reasons?....

I have NO doubts that this is causing your anger to building which will lead to some deep resentments......

I pray this is a stumbling block in your road to recovery......


not2fun

BaT is trying to see if he can bully and stonewall you into backing down. Don't. He'd rather let you and the children suffer than face the discomfort of cleaning up his own mess. That means he's still an addict and a wayward, because neither one has one ounce of empathy for anybody else.

You may well need Plan B very soon to protect yourself and your children from the WS's selfishness and cruelty. That way, BaT will be on his own to figure things out for himself. In the end, he'll have to do that anyway. You can't do it for him. Nobody can.

Putting up the boundary of Plan B will also give you some control over the situation instead of being at the mercy of a selfish wayward. That's (partly) why you are so angry now - because you have virtually no defenses against whatever cruelty he decides to dish out today.

Did I send you the "Boundaries" post? I don't remember - I'll post it again below. Plan B could well stand for Plan Boundary. Especially check the last paragraph.

****************
A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."

A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."

A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"

The answer is: You don't.

Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.

And none of it works.

The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:

You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.

This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."

You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

Get the idea now?

Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.

Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.

Boundaries are castle walls.

And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.

Not's Quote "I'm sorry to hear of this turn of events. Have you asked BaT WHY he hasn't done the assignment? And if so what is his excuses reasons?...."


One of the best gems I've learned thru all of this is not to ask "Why" because that tends to get a person's back up, but to ask "What" and "How" instead.


So, HBH, what about asking your WH "what do you get out of not doing the timeline?" or "what do you think you will get out of doing the timeline?".

I think his answers will be quite telling for you.


Hang in there HBH. You are fighting for your family.

HBH,

Sorry if this hurts but I cannot imagine that it would hurt any worse then what is already happening to you. I don't think that BaT is invested in fixing things. He is looking for a 'quick fix'. He came to MB and posted hoping to find a 'quick fix' and when that didn't happen he disappeared. My guess is that he was hoping for that same 'quick fix' from talking with SH but once again, it's not there and he just isn't willing to do the hard work that a proper recovery requires. How much longer can you go on carrying the whole load? If he isn't going to invest in recovery then you need to seriously consider Plan B.

I don't think I have posted to you yet, but I have followed your story.

Just my 2cents but I would go ahead and make another session with Steve for yourself. I would ask BaT for his reasoning like was posted above, letting him know you are moving ahead with the coaching for your own recovery and if Steve wants to know what happened to BaT you will pass along his reasons for not finishing his assignment.

It makes him accountable to Steve anyway, even though he *thinks* this can all just get swept under the rug.

Hang in there.

Susie beat me to what I was going to suggest.....

HbH,

I was going to say the same thing. I would call Steve and make an appointment for @ the 24th of this month. I happened to look at my calendar and noticed that 2/24 was a little over a week ago. So, I say give him a bit of time to do this. It is truly the hardest part of what BaT is going to have to deal with. It is very hard and emotionally taxing for the WS to examine what they have done because it required true self-reflection. Many, many WS have a difficult time doing this part, and try to do whatever they can to get out of it. I am not saying that this is okay, just that this is the most difficult part of the journey. Since it has been only 9 days since he received this assignment, I would give him a bit of more time. To me a month is MORE than sufficent. WS generally like the ideal of meeting EN'S, avoiding LB's, and making everything all grande and hunky-dorrey, but what they don't understand is that won't last long if they don't deal with trauma they have inflicted on their spouses and the marriage.

Then you should call Steve and ask him for help on where YOU go from here, if BaT hasn't completed it by then. My first thought WAS seperation and Plan B, but since you are getting help from the professionals, it would be best if you stick to their Plans.

I suspect that BaT isn't the first WS to try and get out of this and I'm sure Steve has dealt with this before.

Until the, you need to continue your OWN personal healing and self work. I would also suggest that any frusterations that come along to continue posting here. This will help you to keep your Taker at bay and not to engage in any Love Busters. Hopefully by doing this you will also not develop any residual resentment.

I am truly sorry for this bump in Recovery though. If only the WS could truly understand what the BS is going through at this point and develop that "empathy" emotion right away......

not2fun

I have...he says its because of the way I question him and that I get angry...and I'm sure I should say "thank you for being honest"...but I don't, so that's where its at. He also can't tell the same story twice (which I have said before he has a terrible memory, its not just with PA) and I remember every detail so I catch him every time. This is very frustrating for BaT. Steve Harley had a big word for it...filling in the details to make a story "flow"....I can't remember what it was now.

mindshare,

Believe me, what you are saying, I have told myself 100 times a day.

I've even told BaT..."if this falls into your lap, great, you'll take it, but if you have to do the work, forget it" because that is the truth of how I feel. In fairness, he is willing to do SOME things...he's worked on his anger, frustration, being more supportive, etc..but he absolutely will not do the timeline...

That's why we stopped our MC the first time, because I had been asking him to write everything down for me (its hard to talk about it, because I stop and question discrepancies) since D-Day. I told our first MC how hard this was for me without knowing all the details and the MC agreed that BaT had to do this. BaT has just drawn a line in the sand. I knew it as soon as Steve said what the assignment was...and told Steve as much.

BUT, I don't want to do a Plan-B...I wouldn't make it...I just know me and I can't deal with it.

I will make the appt with Steve like NOT suggested and just hang in there...

HBH,

Your first MC said that he had to write it all down and then Dr Harley said to do a time-line.....sounds like that must be the answer.

And he refuses.

The waywards love themselves more than the betrayed.

A plan B you couldn't make?? Same with a plan D?

What a dilemma.

kirk

I could do a Plan D...I'm just not there yet because I still think that the best thing for our babies is for BaT to be here...but no, could not do a Plan B....just wouldn't want him back, no way, no how.

I don't know...it is VERY confusing...why would he stay if he doesn't want to be here...I have offered him money and lots of it..because I didn't want him to stay with me for the $$$...then I thought maybe it was because he was worried about visiting the kids, so I made some legal arrangements for that (basically I will pay for any travel costs for him to fly to see the kids whereever we live)...he's turned it all down...he says all he wants is our life back...

""he says all he wants is our life back...""

As long as there is no REAL heavy lifting involved.

He has no right to draw that line in the sand.

Obstinate, proud, stubborn jock ?

You stay strong and back that bully down. Sounds like humble is not in his make up.

kirk

C'mon HBH.... are you reading any other threads around here? Talk is cheap. Actions mean everything. He can say that until the cows come home but his ACTIONS are saying that he isn't willing to do what it takes.... Consider this.

"talk is cheap"...

you're telling me...lol

But, I just can't see that BaT's "line in the sand" is worth splitting up over...and I do read other threads ALL THE TIME...and those threads make me think that BaT is doing more than alot of WH out there...

He has cut off all contact with anyone who "turned a blind eye" to the A, he is 100% transparent, spends all of his time with our family, has thrown himself into being a dad, basically EVERYTHING but the "timeline" and RH...

So, the question is this...is a timeline worth a Plan-D?

You are still very early in this, and the anger is normal. You need to learn to expect NOTHING from hubby right now. You are right that he is doing more than most of the WS's here.

I agree with the others that you need to continue counseling with the Harley's. Hubby doesn't want to do the timeline. Just accept that. It doesn't have anything to do with you or his family. But if YOU continue on the road to recovery, hubby will have to also.

Hi HbH

BaT needs to do the work that Steve Harley has assigned him to do!

You've paid good money for the MC and expecting BaT to do the assignments is not asking much at all! Anyways, it's SH that has made the requests to do the assignments, not you! He needs to get off his fanny and get to work... And I've not hesitated to be blunt with him about this already!

As you know, I e-mailed with BaT for about 2 weeks, we had a few good email discussions (at least from my perspective, I do know I was a bit harsh, but he seemed to respond positively), but it's been 2 weeks since any sustantial discussions. I did ask him for a phone number to chat with him one on one. He mentioned that the keyboard is not his friend, and since I type only 5wpm (lol) I thought that would be a good alternative too. He has not shared a number with me, or emailed much since. I'm not sure whats up with him, but if he would spend some time with me, I think we can get him to engage again. Dunno? But it's worth a try. My hope is to see you both succeed and restore your M and your family.

TST,

It's been 11 days since Steve gave him the assignment...probably around the same time ur talking about...I don't know what to do...

BaT knowsthat I don't want to give up on M and I just think this is his "line in the sand"...and its nothing new...I asked him to write all of this down immediately after D-day, our MC told him to do it about 6 weeks after D-day and now SH...

BaT seemed to be doing really well for a few weeks while talking with you....he was calmer, said the "right" things, etc..but as soon as SH told him the assignment, he is just done. Now, BaT won't say that...he just always has an excuse for why he can't get it done,,but I just won't call his bluff on this one, and he knows it.

He hasn't said anything to me about giving his # out...but you know what a privacy freak I am so maybe that's why he hasn't given it to you...do you want me to say something to him? Any suggestions are welcome...I really want to get THROUGH this and I feel like BaT wants us to get OVER this...and there is a world of difference....

Where is YOUR line in the sand?

Your marriage hinges on where yours is, not his. This recovery is not in his control, as you seem to think it is, with him not doing his homework - aka get real about what really happened and give you the details about your life behind your back that he violated...

The man cheated.

He can be an angel now, but if he hasn't righted the wrong, the cancer is still there, embedded in your marriage, and until it's rooted out, he's unwilling to do the one behavior that could prevent it from happening again.

BaT - I know you read here. Forget about concealing that fact. Go ahead and be pissed. But you're in the doghouse, and the only way out is to man up and face the consequences - all of them - of YOUR behavior. You have [bar none] the best man in the business to help your wife get over what ever you think you still have to hide.

But you don't have forever.

I'm going to encourage your wife to get some off-board support in the event she needs to Plan B your ***. I'm going to refer her to the newsletter section of the marriage builder discussion boards, and read up on "When to Call It Quits" - part one and two.

Even if you're not cheating, you're cheating her out of true recovery.

That's still cheating in a chamber or two of your heart.

You will never know what true closeness is, until you become truly vulnerable.

I know that's scary to you.

But until you go through, you have no clue as to the rewards of courage.

Man up!

He said he's holding off giving me his number because he knows how important your privacy is.... I understand this, but I think some phone conversations may be very helpful if you're willing to give him the green light.

KA,

My line in the sand is any more inappropriate behavior from BaT with females.

I really meant it when I said I'm not sure what to do...

I mean, he is HERE. He is here changing diapers in the middle of the night, taking our kids to the playground, tucking them in at night. He is here holding my hand, helping me with the house, and the business. It's no small thing...

Having said that, I can't explain how it makes me feel that he is SO unwilling to do something that I ask..that our old MC asked, that SH is currently asking...Does he refuse to do it to hold on to something special/secret with POSOW? Does he refuse to do it to have something to hold over my head? Does he refuse to do it because he knows that it would help me and BaT really likes this "new" me (full of doubts, unsure of myself,etc)? Does he refuse to do it because he's secretly hoping that I will give up and Plan-D him?

Ok, I just asked BaT why he hadn't said anything to me about the phone issue...no real answer...I told him to give you his cell number, so we will see...

Thanks TST!!!

You're welcome!

[quote=hurt_but_hopeful
Does he refuse to do it to hold on to something special/secret with POSOW? Does he refuse to do it to have something to hold over my head? Does he refuse to do it because he knows that it would help me and BaT really likes this "new" me (full of doubts, unsure of myself,etc)? Does he refuse to do it because he's secretly hoping that I will give up and Plan-D him? [/quote]

He doesn't do it because he knows he doesn't have to. You have made it abudantly clear that you are going to stay in the M no matter what. You are 'teaching' him that he doesn't have to do the heavy lifting. You aren't willing to make it an absolute requirement for recovery so why should he do it? He knows that as long as he doesn't cheat on you again you will stay with him. I can read it in your posts so clearly so why wouldn't he be able to? All he has to do is stay out of future trouble and sweep the rest under the rug and you will settle HBH..... You've all but said it here in your thread. It's sad to see that you are willing to 'stick it out' no matter what he does as long as he doesn't have another affair. That's my read on your sitch. I could be completely wrong of course but I don't think so....

Mindshare,

No, I don't think you're wrong...I am willing to stick it out. I didn't have this in mind when I said "for better or for WORSE" but it's the hand I was dealt.

I don't want this to be my marriage...all this anger and resentment I feel toward BaT.

Would a "timeline" make that go away? Not hardly...he's not going to remember 1/10th of what happened with POSOW (he couldn't tell you what we had for dinner last nite) AND even if he sat down today and wrote it all out I WOULD ALWAYS KNOW HE FELT FORCED TO DO IT because SH told him to...not because BaT wanted to help me through this.

The "timeline" would have been more a "show of good faith" than anything else. I think I know 99% of what happened and when...It just became this huge deal because of BaT's refusal to do it all the way along...and then the wondering "WHY???" he won't do it...

I am just rambling now...because at the end of the day, this is all about my children.

There is not a doubt in my mind what BaT would do if I kicked him out today...and none of it involves being a good dad...

right now, BaT is doing ALOT...I know its not MB stuff necessarily, but like I said in my earlier post...he is HERE...changing diapers, rocking babies, kissing scraped knees...our babies need him right now, because to say that HBH is not on her "a-game" is the understatement of the year...

Allow yourself to receive God's healing grace.....

This WILL take time!

hbh,

You won't recover this M without the timeline. Every day that you both allow to go by without taking care of this, your resentment builds. Eventually you will get to the point of no return.

BaT isn't thinking about this long-term...his refusal is going to bite him in the *ss big time because you will eventually lose ALL of your love and respect for him and there will be no going back. I am not trying to scare you but I DO want you to believe me.

Have you promised BaT that you will not have an AO while doing this exercise? Some people recommend that you give him a list of questions to get this discussion going. You also can put a time limit on each "session" to help quell BaT's anxiety.

IMHO you need to make this a boundary, ie, "I will not stay in a M where I do not know the TRUTH about what has happened in it". Then ask BaT what needs to happen for him to do this. Ask him what he needs from you in order to feel safe enough to do this for you.

Remind him that he is doing this for your children also, because recovery will never happen without it.

I do believe you, I'm just not sure what to do at this point


AO have obviously been a problem in the past...which is one reason why SH told him to write it all down (rather than tell me verbally, so I won't have the chance to interrupt). I just hate to ask BaT anything about it, because its like I'm begging for crumbs


Ok, so I make this a "boundary" for me, which admittedly I have not done in the past, and then when BaT refuses to do it...then what? Which, by the way, the "refusal" is never with a "HBH, I will never do a timeline" its with a "HBH, i know i have to do that...i just need some time to make sure I don't miss any details" or "HBH i am going to work on that timeline, its just so hurtful to think about" etc. Point being, I would have to make a "deadline" otherwise, it will just drag on like it has done since SH told him to do it.

What is the price a WS pays for breaking a BS' "boundary"??? I have a feeling its going to be a Plan-B sort of answer...

HBH,

You said
But what he is not doing is what is needed to heal this marriage. I may be wrong but I sense a huge power struggle going on with you and BAT. He will NOT, as a point of pride, admit to anyone that he needs help or guidance. Yet clearly the data indicates he does. You will not admit that perhaps before all of this started YOU ran the show and he was just one of the clowns in the show.

You neither will admit that you have pushed the other into a corner. Someone mentioned that if things don�t change eventually you will lose your love for him and leave him. You won�t admit this and right now he sees that you will not throw him out because he is being good to the �babies�. But he is not being good to you. You need to understand that he needs to deal with SH not for you, but for himself. He needs to understand that he needs to deal with SH not for you but for himself. And if he cannot recognize that he needs guidance and help, then I will tell you that you either will have a miserable marriage OR he will cheat again.

You guys have issues. You must face yours and he must face his. I don�t think he sees it this way. He needs to.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

So are you saying he isn't out-right refusing to do this, he just hasn't done it YET? That is different than a flat-out refusal. Is he saying he will do it but isn't ready to do it now?

If that is the case then the best bet is for us to work with you on learning how to make him feel safe to do this.

Can you let us know which it is?

Sure. I asked for the details IMMEDIATELY. BaT and I woke up every morning, drove to work together, worked in the same office, two doors apart, drove home together every evening, ate dinner with our kids every nite. I had a VERY hard time understanding how the PA even had TIME TO OCCUR. At that time, he flat out refused to give me details. I caught him in one lie right after the other. POSOW was actively trying to split us up for the 1st six weeks after D-day and I found out ALOT of info from her. BaT rarely admitted to anything until POSOW told me first.

Then we moved and started MC in new city. Timeline/details/whatever was the BIG ISSUE for me, so immediately MC said for BaT to do it. BaT told MC he would do it, but at home with me, he flat out refused. "I don't see the point" "It's irrelevant at this point" "you'll just use it against me later" ETC ETC ETC

SH didn't tell BaT to do the timeline until over 5 months after D-Day. Since SH has told him to do it, BaT has not said the words "I am not going to do it". I just feel like his actions show me what he intends on doing, or not doing. He basically shut down from MB after SH gave him that assignment. As far as I know, he doesnt even get on to MB website anymore (he quit posting early on, but was still reading threads until assignment). We don't do online program anymore. Basically nothing MB related since 2-24.

Ok, I see...then IMHO your boundary should be something like::

"I refuse to stay in a M where my H refuses to help me recover from his A." He isn't even doing the MB stuff anympore???

If you want to give him a little more time to grow a set of b*lls and do what SH and everyotherexpert is telling him to do, then in the meantime MY personal boundary would be "I refuse to interact with someone who has inflicted an enormous amount of pain on me AND THEN wants to move on like nothing has happened." I know that isn't very MB-like but a person can only take so much. He is DRAINING your LB by refusing to do this. Does ne not understand this? Have you expressed this to him?

hbh...your H is not the "leader" of this recovery. YOU have the option to say to him

"BaT...I cannot go on like this anymore. I am dying a death of a thousand cuts with every day that passes and you refuse to do what SH has suggested....I KNOW I will not recover without this. There is no point in keeping me in this limbo any longer. I need a date by which you solemnly promise me we will have completed this assignment. What can I do to help you complete this assignment so that we can continue moving forward in our recovery?"

I think you are right...I have thought that alot of BaTs actions were to "put me in my place". I have read that A isn't about the BS...but we have a very different situation as far as "balance of power" is concerned and I think there is more to it. Then again, I'm the BS, so I'm not objective.

Agreed. I have said before, BaT didn't like what he heard from me, so he got on the forum. BaT didn't like what he heard on the forum, so he stopped posting. BaT didn't like what he heard from SH, so no more counseling.

I do admit that...no question about it.

And again, this is why I am stuck, unless I am going to Plan-D, which HE KNOWS i will not...

But isn't this the real issue...I don't "refuse" and he knows it...

What is the worst thing that could happen in your eyes, HBH, if you were to Plan B your husband?

((((HBH))))),

Glad to see you are back ASKING for help and guidance. I gather it is not the easiest thing for you to do. In the past you have always been self-suffecient and a go-getter, so to me you ASKING is a huge task for you. YOu are to be commended on that, because really the ONLY way to learn is to ask.....especially the difficult questions....

I wanted to comment a few things you shared....

You weren't "dealt" this hand. Cancer is something life deals you. Job loss is something that life deals to you. Adultery is something your spouse did willingly. Adultery is intential harm to the marriage by the offending spouse. It wasn't something that just "happened".

Yes, you must deal with the aftermath and affects it caused but it was a deliberate attack on you. BaT vowed to honor you and stay faithful. HE and he alone broke that....


You have stated this many times, but the anger and resentment at THIS point are NORMAL emotions to feel after having been betrayed.......when BaT does the work to make amends for his actions your feelings of anger and resentment will subside. If he doesn't do the work (or REFUSES to do it), those feelings WILL remain there....to PROTECT you from further harm....)


Nope it won't make it all go away, but it is an IMPORTANT step in the process. One that CANNOT be ignored......It would be akin to an alcoholic going to AA and not doing Step 8...(I don't know what step 8 is, I am just using it for my analogy....)


It really doesn't matter WHY he does HbH, it only matters that he does at this point. Look, you kids are real old, but give me some leeway here.....If you tell your son to pick up his toys, does it matter to you if he WANTS to do it to make mom happy or does it really just matter if he does it???.....Everybody has things in life they HAVE to do whether they like it or not....clean the dinner dishes, go to work, brush their teeth, whatever.....BUT we do these things because we HAVE to otherwise, the dishes will pile up till there aren't any more clean ones to eat off of, people will go hungry and lose their homes, their teeth will rot and then fall out....See where I am going with this????....IF BaT doesn't do the things required of him in Recovery, things required by Steve, then the marriage will NOT heal.

I realize you would RATHER him do this WILLINGLY (wouldn't we all???..... ), but MOST waywards aren't like this, not at first and not with EVERYTHING. BaT has done some things without even batting an eye, so keep that in mind when you feel a bit of anger or resentment coming on. This is a perfect example of the "feelings follow actions" mantra talked about on here....


This is very TELLING Hbh......something to think on.....I don't think you need or should "kick" him out yet, but it may very well come down to this......it depends really on YOU and what your boundary is and how well you plan on defending it....


Uhmmmm...this IS MB stuff. Its under Domestic Support and Family Commitment......Not the most ROMANTIC part of MB, but still a part of it none-the-less........



YOu are being much too HARD....on YOURSELF!!!!....You have been through a major TRAUMA....Let BaT pick up some of the slack (and responsiblity) while you gather your bearings and HEAL. This is NOT a bad reflection on YOU. Not at all......because in all honesty, if you don't give yourself a bit of a break, you really just end up running yourself ragged and making yourself sick, which in the end, helps no one......

Even though BaT is stalling, I do think you two are doing better than when you first got here. This is not the easiest thing to do, but MB is the easiest way to get it done. Much better than sitting in some hack's office going round and round about the same thing.....

((((HbH)))))

You are going to do a lot of growing as an individual through this.....

not2fun

No HBH, you situation is not unique, it is not any different.......and BaT's affair was very much about HIM. What is it about BaT that he would ALLOW himself to wallow in the dredges of an affair? What is it about BaT that he would think it was ACCEPTABLE to boink another woman??....It really doesn't matter what you did or didn't do pre-A, what matters is BaT LEARNING where HIS defeciencies were....

not2fun

I don't know SMB, everything...BaT left two days after D-day and spent the nite in a hotel...the first thing my 2 y/o asked when he got home (the kids were gone when BaT left) was "where's Daddy?" I literally fell to the floor. I have read the Plan-B threads and all I can say is those BS's are stronger than I am.


I guess if I had to choose one thing that would be the worst it would be the babies asking for him. I get sick to my stomach just thinking about it.

{{{{{HBH}}}}}

I understand. I lived your worst fear. I looked into my children's eyes and told them their daddy was moving out because he was having an affair.

It was literally the very worst day of my life other than D-day.

BUT...

what if that is the very best way to save your children's family?

I am not saying you should Plan B right now.

I am saying that you should not rule out the possibility of it in the future.

Not,

First thanks for all of your encouragement

I just wanted to make sure that I cleared up what I meant earlier....not that BaT's PA was different...but JL had commented on the "balance of power" in our M and I do think that is different than most marriages.

HBH, you are getting so much good feedback. There's one thing that stands out to me about some of your posts such as the one above... To me this is NOT about the timeline per se as you have stated repeatedly.

Looking at the big picture ~ not doing the timeline is a wayward tendency (putting his own feelings/needs above what's best for the M) which IMVHO WILL reveal itself again later on, and most definitely will hinder the recovery proces, if you don't set up your own boundary re what you expect from him...

Then I would do it. But, for what is worth...I think if I did Plan-B, one of two things would happen:

1) BaT drinks himself into oblivion (remember, he has no bills, no job to get up and get dressed for, no responsibilities)
and just becomes a drunk and not a good father to our kids

or

2) BaT takes better care of himself than above so that he can be the "rockstar" and live the party life he is missing out on, gets a job so he can have party money, and not be a good father to our kids.

I just don't see the option of BaT saying "OMG, i am losing my family and i need to do something about it"

HBH,

You said IF this is true, you should file today. Your are not married to a man that cares about his family or you, if this is the case.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

I totally agree. It sounds like BaT only stays because you make it easy for him to stay, and if it's not easy enough and comfy enough he'll just run off to become a drunk or a rock star (or both).

This is not how men behave when they love you.

You may very well need Plan B, which can often lead to Plan D. If it does, then you will have a chance to find a real man whom your young children can grow up calling "Daddy" since BaT just doesn't find them worth his effort.

And I'm dead serious.

That's what I thought you'd say.

If BaT continues to refuse you what you need to work through the trauma he caused you, Plan B will be your best hope to give your children the family they deserve.

As you continue to be denied the very things that could bring you healing, your anger and hurt will NOT subside. Instead it will turn to resentment and it will destroy your family, whether BaT stays in the home or not.

I believe that the best case scenario is ALWAYS mommy and daddy married, living together, and in love.

That does NOT mean that daddy not living in the home is the WORST case scenario.

Please think about that.

And think about what resentment toward your husband will do to the environment your children will be raised in and to your ability to be the type of mother you desire to be.

Then ask yourself if you are really ready to take Plan B off the table of possibilities.

I understand what you are saying.

And its not much different from other posters...no boundaries= no healing= no recovery.

I don't think BaT and I are in recovery...I think we are in some sort of LIMBO HELL

He's staying and I'm allowing him to stay.

We have good days and we have bad days.

But we are not recovering our M.

I just don't want you guys to think I'm not listening to what you are saying. I am. I get it.

And I get the Boundary. But the question is what do I do if BaT refuses? Which is what I think he will do. Don't I have to be ready to Plan-B?

I guess my point is, I shouldn't give him a boundary (knowing that he will not abide by it) unless I am ready to do something about it. Am I wrong?

HBH there are many here on this board who SAVED their marriages because of Plan B.

Plan B does not have to mean Plan D.

Plan B is saying, "I have waited all I can for you to remove your head from your hiney. I now must protect myself AND OUR CHILDREN from the afffects of head-uppa-da-assa. I want our family to be together and when you are willing to do your part in that, I hope to still have enough love left to reconcile."


Do you see how different Plan B is from Plan D? Two totally different goals, but they both have the potential to result in Plan D...but then so does the path you are on.

If it is a reasonable boundary that happy couples in love do not cross, then why not make and enforce it? Some boundaries, like a wedding vow, are mutally agreed and aren't meant to be crossed. If he does at least you will feel better that it wasn't you who crossed a boundary that was fair, descent, and reasonable.

JL,

The fact is I am not married to a man that cares about his family or me. BaT is not the man I've spent the last 8 years of my life with...he is just not. I don't know or understand BaT. I see GLIMPSES of my husband. GLIMPSES.

You ask Steve Harley what he suggests. He is the expert. He is working with both of you. Let him help you determine the best path for you to give you the best chance at creating the family you desire for your children.






I don't think you have to be ready to start Plan B right this very minute. I just think you should not remove it as a possible step to saving your marriage.

I will go out on the limb here with you all and add my 2 cents (what they are worth)

Consider 'getting yourself ready for plan B' as you mentioned you should be but are not.

Line up financial things in a row. Your safety nets.
Consider your internal strength as something that must be worked like a muscle. You are right that going to B is rough. It is so very un-what we want to have to do at that juncture. It is a thing that needs personal fortitude to ride.

Once in it though....if you are truly dark.....after a bit of grief of going to it

You

get

strong

You really, truly DO!

Then, you are able to clearly make decisions that are right for you and your children.

It strengthens your ability to consider all things. ALL things vs just the original desire for saving the marriage no matter what the state of it is.

You do the hard work of strengthing yourself. Rebuilding your own personal sense of worth and then you can take whatever the outcome of what your spouse turns out to be made of.

The kids will read your signals of how to deal with it.

So. Prepare for B. The preparation in itself is affirming of self.

You can then decide when to go there. If to go there. It won't be a decision based in fear though. It will be a decision you make from a place of strenght.

Done with my spiel.