I am 2 years out from D Day. We started with the book SA, because I was already on the HNHN forum trying to apply the principles to our marriage. The infidelity board was the logical place to go, and I am so very grateful for the support and information I was able to glean here. Over these last 2 years, we've made a lot of progress in the areas of affair proofing: meeting ENs, avoiding LBs, etc.

However, it has always bothered me that my H seems to have an "out" according to SA. Its been a while since I read the book, so I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that the book puts the responsibility on the BS (because he/she was not meeting ENs in order to A proof) rather than putting the responsibility fully and squarely on the back of the WS. Am I off here? Does anyone have any input on this?

In my case, my FWH says in one breath "I am responsible for the choice of the A, it is in no way your fault." But, in the other breath he'll say something like: "I was miserable in our M. If you had better met this EN or...then I wouldn't have done it." To me, this puts the blame on me even though he says otherwise. He often refers back to SA to reference how As start. I guess, IMO, I believe that ultimately, HE chose the A because of his internal weaknesses, his low self esteem, and his refusal to voice his ENs (and some of his "needs" were due to skewed thinking; she should be thinner than she was when we married if she wants to adequately meet my AS need.). It bothers me that he is essentially able to scape goat his issues by saying that I didn't meet ENs therefore he was vulnerable. What do you all think?

This is a misinterpretation of SAA. Not meeting emotional needs is the beginning of problems in a marriage, but there is no one to blame for an A except the participants of an A. THEY had poor boundaries and made poor choices; not you.

Do I blame myself to a certain exent for GO's A? Yes, but more because I allowed us to grow apart and didn't pick up on the subtle signs of the A. 20/20 hindsight can make us crazy!

We both need to work to heal our marriage, GO on his poor boundaries and not sharing his ENs with me, and me working on meeting his ENs and learning to not be a conflict avoider.

Don't allow the blame game to interfere with your healing. Talk to your DH honestly (remember O & H) about what you hear when he talks about the A. He may not mean that at all.

Each spouse is responsible for their 50% of the state of the marriage....... But the damage caused from infidelity is 100% on the shoulders of the Wayward spouse.

wonderin, I asked Dr Harley about this over on the MB weekend forum and here is what he said:

I think it's a "which came first...the chicken or the egg" argument/discussion that doesn't really serve your marriage and recovery well.

Of course, I could have been running around catering to Mrs. W's emotional needs all the time and this whole her having an affair business would likely have been averted; however, I was unhappy too, at that time, and if she wasn't catering or reciprocating by meeting my needs I would have remained vulnerable (with even more resentment due to all the extra-effort I was making) and could have easily been the one to have an affair myself.

As it really was back then, it was only a matter of time and opportunity with either one of us...unfortunately.

There is also self-doubt and times I question my actions back then. A sort of "self-blame" game which tells me I should have done this or that and I could have avoided enduring what I/we did. In hindsight, I can plainly see where I made huge mistakes and could have saved us both a lot of trouble. Further, as a man, I should have been more protective of my wife and family. So perhaps, at times, your insecurities about your actions or non-actions creep into your mind as you talk to your husband and/or read Surviving an Affair/HNHN and you were hearing, seeing or taking on "blame" unnecessarily. You are blaming yourself and that will make any BS's upset.

Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs, IMO, doesn't BLAME anyone...it nuetrally discusses the commonality of conditions precedent to affairs, through an illustrative story, but the REAL message is where to go AFTER the affair...how to survive and rebuild you marriage by restoring romantic love to the relationship.

IMO, you are not progressing towards romantic love by constantly rehashing adversarily the blame about the past. You each openly and honestly acknowledge your part in the past...worry only about YOUR side of the street, for the express purpose of making your future TOGETHER better and safer for the both of you.

I say BOTH OF YOU...for the important reason (and your husband should be listening to this) that statistically the betrayed spouse is the next most likely person to have an affair in your relationship. You BOTH need extraordinary precautions, not because his affair was your fault or his, but because you BOTH want an affair proof loving marriage of extraordinary care.

IMO, debating blame is counter-productive and a waste of time. He said he knows it's all his fault and you should trust that. You certainly can acknowledge your short-comings pre-affair and concentrate on fixing your side. Work the MB program and, as Dr. Harley indicates, the resentments over the past will fade away with time as you fall in love with your husband again.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Mrs. W and I went to the MB weekend at approximately the two year after D-day mark. We "thought" we were recovered then...but there has been much progress since. More than we ever conceived possible at that time. I don't want you to stifle your thoughts around your husband. I really think you should be able to OPENLY discuss this specific issue but realize that there is no definitive answer (like the chicken vs. the egg thing) and get to a point where "no answer" doesn't upset you as you speak candidly and intimately with your husband about this stuff (and conclude TOGETHER, like we did eventually, it doesn't matter anymore). You are on the same marriage reconstruction team after all.

p.p.s. - "Scorekeeping", debate, adversarily discussing blame is an enemy to intimate conversation.

If Flick made that comment to me, he wouldn't have his 'F' for long.

If he had had proper boundaries in place he would not have had the affair.

Actually...the calm respectfull response to this is...

"Well dear, if I had been running around catering to your "emotional needs" maybe you wouldn't have had an affair, but then who would have stopped me from having one?"

"What were YOU doing back then to keep me from making the same mistake you did?"

"If I had had an affair...would it have been your fault?"

This is exactly where it goes round and round and NOBODY wins IF you are debating this. Discussing it, INTIMATELY...OK. Debating it is the problem as there really isn't a solution....and neither of you can ever win (unless and until it doesn't matter...then you BOTH win).

It happened.

It's over.

Where do you go from here?

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - what's great about this discussion and participating in these forums is that it is so much easier for a recovering couple to discuss these matters in the third person than it is about themselves. This thread once again brought up this discussion with Mrs. W just a few moments ago. We don't discuss specific facts nor debate details about our past as we both know it's fruitless and can lead to upset. Instead we hash it out in intimate conversation while discussing your situation, this post and the one above and find ourselves bonded discussing our marriage, our family, our past and how far we've come. There is no upset any longer and it's just pleasant conversation and a bond as we TOGETHER try to help others navigate these treacherous recovery waters.

From the sounds of it though, wonderin's FWH isn't trying to blame shift - he is saying that he is responsible for the affair - my guess is that he is very confused...This is a place that I faltered for a long while myself...Not because I wanted to blame Mr. W...I just knew what I knew about the state of the marriage pre-affair, and I very much wanted answers too! A FWS also drives themselves crazy with the WHYs...That isn't just BS territory...It's the WORST thing you've ever done in your life and you want to know HOW exactly you let it happen...It's a hard place to be - and yes, I realize that the FWS put themselves there - I'm not trying to garner sympathy for WSs at all...

Mel helped me a lot by reminding me that though unmet needs create VULNERABILITY to an affair, they don't CAUSE an affair on their own...You gotta have shoddy boundaries and opportunity too...

In my opinion, Mr. W's post was spot on...It is a crazy making process to try and divvy up blame...It's an intimacy killer and an exercise in futility...Perhaps the most important part of his post is the TEAM element...When you guys have these discussions, be sure that you are doing so from a "this is our marriage - you and me against the world" perspective...The adversarial "Well YOU did THIS, and I wasn't doing anything like THAT" will lead to arguments 100% of the time...That is shooting yourselves in the "recovery foot"...

Mrs. W

Wonderin, I was just wondering how you were doing~!

I want to fill people in. Wonderin's husband is a pilot who likes his women thin and skanky. His wife, a good Christian woman, is about 10 lbs more than he would like.

THIS IS THE ONLY THING SHE DOES TO " CAUSE HIM TO GO TO ANOTHER WOMAN"!

He is crazy and wrong and she is too weak and enabling to see what a creep he is.

We went over and over this with her. I bet even if she were to get very thin, like he likes, and skanky, which he prefers also,,,,,he would STILL NOT WANT HER AS MUCH AS HIS SKANK STEWARDESSES!!!!

Hereafter Wonderin's husband shall be referred to as Cpt. Quagmire.

Wonderin, your FWH still has a lot of ground to cover, but it seems like he's making a LITTLE progress.

Even if your characterisation of her pre-D day marriage is correct, you have no basis on which to say that this is how either wonderin3 or her H are now.

My reading of your posts two years ago are that you thought that wonderin should end this marriage. You seemed to taunt her for wanting to rebuild, both when her weight was the only known problem, and when she discovered the affair.

I do hope you are not going to track wonderin3's posts now that she has come back, reiterating your view that she is weak and her H wants skinny skanky women. You are being unkind.

Pre-A issues may be both parties' responsibility but I really do think we have to be cautious in throwing out the 50-50 assessment. In many cases , this is not true , as one party is much ore responsible for the problems.
I have read that , typically, it is the Ws that has caused most of the pre-A problems. This makes sense to me, as the decison to have an affair demosntrates the WS having poor communication skills, poor boundaries, a lack of integrity and a lack of empathy. Lack of these qualities , surely, causes problems in a marrige Pre-A.
I beleive tyhat many BSs often feel that if anyone should have justification for an affair by way of having unment needs and a deficient partner, it would be the BS.

I've gotta agree with this one Z.

Oh ! My, my, my goodness ....

The only mantra a WS needs to repeat with regards to the "why" of his or her affair is:

I was completely wrong, I made a terrible choice, I am responsible for my choices

This should never be followed by a "but" of any kind...ever

I loved that movie. Hope there is a sequel.

Not so typical Z. I can attest that in MY marriage, we were both responsible for the state Pre-A. I had my issue's, H had his. I find this to more typical around here...(the Wondering's, Lil, Queenie, TMTS, are a few that I know of....)

H HAD communicated to me his dissatisfaction NUMEROUS times. Not always in the best of ways, sure, but yet it was done. In fact, H had written me a loving letter prior to Dday (years prior, but yet it was done...). Me, I was in the "you-need-to-love-me-unconditionally-for-who-I-am-camp".....


H did have these though...SUPER SHODDY boundaries...


Nope, H had integrity. He misplaced it and eschewed it for the A though....


Nope, this was misplaced as well. It was after Dday, that this caused his great conflict in Affairland though.....but once he was addicted, it was just too hard to get away from it......

Many drug addicts don't like being chained to their prisons, but once the high has been experienced, it is hard to shake the demon.....

I have absolutely no doubt that I myself could have gotten caught up in an affair, given the right circumstances. I had better boundaries than H, but after all that I have learned, I can see how easy it can/does happen....

not2fun

Not2, I do not question that y assertion was not applicable to your H. However, in my reading, I have come across studies that claim to reach the conclusion that , typically, it is the WS who,pre-A, is bringing way less to the marriage in terms of investing.
I wonder if you had your own dissatisfactions in the marriage, pre-A. If so, what is it about you that did not allow you to cheat? Don't you think your H's decision says something about his limitations as compared to your own?

ut oh, Bubbles is off her leash today!

I love dat gal!

I am 100% responsible for my A. My H was 100% responsible for his A.

However, we were both equally responsible (50/50) for the problems in our M. It takes two people to make a M work, and neither one of us were showing up and putting in the work necessary to make that happen.

Wow! Thank you all for offering your insights. I didn't expect this many people to chime in. I am heading to church right now. I will write more when I get home.

I think this concept of reconciling some contribution to the pre-A issues and the relationship to the cheater's decison to bang someone else is difficult for many BSs.
First, one is in a very traumatized state and, for some reason, their is a strong temptation to find a cause and effect deal between our deficiencies and the glaring one's evidenced by the WS.
I have read that a BS feels safer if he or she can establish some type of rleationship between the Pre-A issues and the cheating, as it does give a sense of control.
It really helped me to get to the point of placing all responsibility for the cheating on my XWW when I realized that one does not have to be perfect to expect fidelity.
Not one person that I know of hads not made mistakes in their marriage or needed improvement in some areas. But, our vows didnot provied for dispensing with fidelity in the evnet whe found our spouses lacking in some regard.
It is the height of arrogance for a WS to try to justify cheating by pointing out these deficienceis or imperfections. as doing so displays the WS's lack of insight into his or her own deficiencies and the problems he or she caused.

Zelmo....I agree that this is the case in some marriages, and definitely in my marriage.

I TOTALLY agree with this is all cases.

I hear what you all are saying. And I agree with a lot of it. Certainly, I didn�t do everything right. I misunderstood a lot of his ENs and threw myself into meeting them in ways that I *thought* would be meaningful, when in fact they were not. I had a chip on my shoulder about some of his requests, which led to a rebellious attitude and some LBs. (We didn�t understand the concept of mutual enthusiasm at the time.) I had some passive aggressive tendencies rather than being assertive and living in OH. So, yes, there were many things that I did wrong pre-A. However, I was striving to meet an EN that one of my dearly loved posters (starfish) pointed out �tipped the scales into obsession.� I was not asked to meet a legitimate EN, but rather a fantasy. And the truth is that no one can compete with fantasy. No one can fulfill fantasy.

I may have some mud flung my way for this, and I�m prepared to take it, but my H�s requests pre-A were not legitimate ENs. He was battling lust, and he wanted me to take responsibility for solving HIS lust problem under the guise of meeting his need for an AS. To him, this meant that my eating healthy foods, exercising regularly and maintaining my married weight was no longer good enough to satisfy his need for AS. The bar was raised significantly. IMO, this is not a legitimate need, and my anger about his request that I live up to fantasy stemmed from that fact. Mind you, he was not willing to discuss finding a solution that we were both enthusiastic about. It was his way or the highway. My feelings/thoughts about it were completely dismissed. Looking back I can see how much he tore me down with rude comments and criticisms. I made excuses for him, and was blinded by love and the repeated lies he told me: we are ok, we�ll get through this, don�t worry about it, we don�t need help, I love you. The truth was just the opposite, he was growing resentful, he was NOT happy. I was naive.

I hope that I�m not blinded by arrogance, but as I see it, I can�t claim an equal part of the state of our M. I was here on the EN forums working to understand the concepts, I was trying to apply them, I was reading other books, suggested counseling, even sacrificing of myself � against the Harleys� advice � to try to please him. I think I actually accepted responsibility for curing him of his lust. How absurd! So, while I can look back and see MANY things that I did wrong in our M, I can�t say that we have 50/50 in the contribution of the state of the M that led to the A. And perhaps that is why I am so bothered by the fact that my H can fall back on the SAA �I was unhappy because of unmet needs and so I fell into the A.� His unmet EN was for an AS, that�s it. I WAS and AM an AS. I did and do a LOT to meet this need. What he wanted me to do was be MORE attractive than I was at marriage. How many of us can do that without surgery, starvation, or some aging tonic?
Maybe all that detail was unnecessary. I apologize for the rant. I guess what I�m saying is:

I do not believe that both partners always responsible for 50% of the pre-A conditions. A relationship takes 2, and no one is ever completely innocent when there is conflict. However, I think it very possible for one person to be working his/her tail off while the other eats it all up and complains that there isn�t more. That, to me is not 50-50.
I�ve spent too many years owning things that aren�t mine. I�ve spent too many years putting his needs above my own. I�ve spent too many years tolerating LBs. Today, I don�t. I�ve gotten a lot of phenomenal counseling to address my codependency, marital boundaries, assertiveness, etc. I�ve worked hard to understand the principles in SAA, and we�ve made a ton of headway here. I just don�t want my H to be able to say that my failure to be more attractive than I was at marriage led to his unhappiness that led to the A. It feels like backsliding for me and blameshifting for him. Could be wrong�will be talking to my IC about this.

I hear many of you saying that it is useless to try to determine fault. I can see why you would think that. If the goal is to move forward and do the right things to maintain a happy, safe marriage, then what good does it do? For me, it feels important because I do not want to live a single day more with a man who cannot see how cruel he was, how there was just NOTHING right about the put downs, or even the request in the first place. I can�t see how any of it was ok. None of it. And when he says: well I was unhappy due to unmet ENs�it is like saying: I was justified in my requests. It was fair for me to make SDs and expect you to jump to. Since you didn�t, I choose someone else. I am not willing to carry that weight for the rest of my life. KWIM?

I know what you mean wonderin.

I've heard it said on this board recently, and I know it to be true in my marriage, that sometimes you need a third party to point this stuff out to your husband for him to believe it, or accept it.

Wonderin, sounds like you have an excellent hndle on what was going on and your lck of responsibility for issues that were entiely within your WH.
It is very importwnt to examine cliche's and stereotypes, like the 50-50- contribution deal. Like most stereotypes, they lack analysis ans specificity. The roll off the ongue and sound sort of good. But, they seldom stand up to scrutiny.
I think a better way of looking at the pre-A issues in my marriage to a NPD/BPD wife, is not to look at how i may have played a role in her having these crazy issues. They were already ther.
My role was that I was too enthralled by her physical beauty and by fear of her fury to do what I shuld have done upon the first signs of abuse: dump her [censored].
So, I played a role. I chose this loser and tolerated her abuse way too long.
Sounds like your WH is an abuser, as well.

And that is a hard pill to swallow at first.

I know, BTDT.

I try not to beat myself up too much for that though, and I hope Wonderin doesn't either. The abuse can be subtle, playing on your innocence or naivete. Some abusers do an excellent job of having you believe you are the problem....until you learn differently.

I sometimes wonder if the abusers always know that they are abusive? I don't think they do. I think it takes the bottom falling out of their lives before, and if, they ever do any introspection in how they were abusive. And even if some realize it, they don't always come out of denial and accept it, much less make amends for it.

I am of the belief that this was a self esteem problem in your husband. I believe he needed you to be more, to improve the way he felt about himself. I don't knock the need for an attractive spouse at all, but he if required you do more than what is possible for you, there is a problem within himself.

You are definitely on the right track Wonderin. I think your husband needs counseling, but I wouldn't recommend an IC. I would recommend a MC who is pro-marriage, understands IMAGO therapy, preferrably someone with MB knowledge as well.

Yes, Mopey, I believe you are right. He has no interest in hearing my interpretations of things. He says...the way you tell it, I was an abusive a**. I say: call it what you will, it doesn't matter to me. I only want you to admit that it happened often and it was harmful to me persoanlly and to our M. I would *love* it if he looked at the WHY behind it, but short of someone else pushing for that, I don't think it will happen. My efforts to talk about it are LB, so yes, it needs to come from a 3rd party whom he respects.

Zelmo and Mopey -

I appreicate your words. Sometimes I feel crazy, and it is nice to know if someone other than my H agrees. If I'm off, I'd really like to know so that I can examine my thinking and get back on track.

As for the idea of abuse, were either of you in a similar situation? How do you know if it was abuse or not? Can abuse be unintentional?

My H won't agree that he even unintentionally beat me down. This really bothers me, because again, it makes me question my sanity. I start to wonder...well, maybe I am wrong. Maybe I don't remember it correctly, maybe I am off, etc. And I feel plain crazy, because what he says doesn't line up with what I remember or feel. It makes me mad when someone tries to tell you that your reality is actually fantasy. That is what my H did during the A, and I bought it, so doing it now triggers those old feelings.

Thank you for suggesting that I'm on the right track. I feel more sane hearing that. I can't wait to get into our MC to discuss this as it is on my mind all the time lately. We have a new MC that my H really respects, and I have hope that she will be able to reach him. We do a rotation, MC, him alone, me alone, MC and so on.

What is IMAGO?

Mopey, I understood from others on this board that finding an Imago therapist, because there weren't any MB therapists in the list on the site in my area, would be close enough. Because my H wasn't enthusiastic at that time about phone counseling. I was *very* mistaken. Imago was great at the EN-filling stuff. But it doesn't get to the core of eliminating LBs, it instead asks us to accept our spouse's shortcomings. I was left with a spouse that I care for and feel close to, in other works my "love bank inventory" reads as full, but have no wish to remain married to him, because the persistent LBs remain part of the package. I think this may be Wonderin's issue, too, the persistent DJ LB. Even when you spend the 15 hours, and your ENs are met, the persistent expectation from your spouse that you need to adapt their thoughts as your own or *you're just not good enough* is hard to swallow. I think Wondering would be much better served getting her MC on board with the MB program.

Same here, which is quite annoying to me. I feel disrepected when my thoughts and feelings are not considered on subjects. It also kills me when I can suggest something, it's shot down by my husband, but if a counselor sees and suggest the same thing....well then that's a different story. I would love to hear just one time..."Mopey, maybe you were right about that". But, I bite my tongue and am just glad he heard it from someone else.

My webster's compact dictionary describes abuse as "use or treat wrongly", and "insult". If you google Webster's dictionary, it has other definitions such as "language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily". A synonym of abuse is "obloquy", which suggests defamation and consequent shame and disgrace.


I was abused in different ways. The worst abuse I felt was the gaslighting. My husband use to tell me I was paranoid, jealous, crazy, etc when I felt something wasn't right. Meanwhile, I find out 13 years into our marriage that he was unfaithful to me 7 times that I know of since we met. So, I felt bad about myself all those years, while he lied to me, while I was thinking I was just paranoid, etc. I have a hard time trusting my own judgement these days, and that has probably hurt me worse than anything.

Lying to someone is abusive.

I was also in the same boat as you regarding my husband's unhealthy addiction to lust. He would check out other women in front of me. One time he even pointed out a women's rack to my son in front of me. I find that disrepectful and emotionally abusive. He doesn't do this in front of me now, and I have no way of knowing if he does it when he's not with me. I do know that lust has been a battle for him.

HIS counselor even went to go so far as to say he sexually abused me. My husband never raped me, or was violent sexually. I think she came to that conclusion based on some stuff I told her about him wanting me to pose for him and act out his fantasies. In my opinion, we didn't make love, we had sex. Big difference.

Not that just sex is not ok, but IMO, that's all it ever was. This paragraph could be argued by some as being a healthy thing, in some situations it probably is. It just wasn't for us. I use to undress in my closet because I couldn't compare to the porn skanks he was looking at. I was so messed up by all of this, because I just didn't understand what was happening. I just knew it didn't feel right. I never did dive into the sexual abuse accusation with her due to other reasons.



I'm not sure Wonderin. I think sometimes we can be abusive without thinking about it. I believe my husband projects negative thoughts about me, by comparing me to his father AND mother, and therefore treats me unfairly in his judgements. I don't even think he realizes it most of the time. It is only now that our MC is pointing this out to him. Meaning....he'll treat me negatively based on how his parents treated him, even before I even have a reaction to something.



I painfully understand this all too well. In some instances, this has gotten better for us, in other instances I'm still in the same boat as you. It is maddening to say the least. All I can do is talk to other people, talk to God, and learn how to validate myself. I use to wish I had a tape recorder going all the time just to play it back and prove that he really did say something he claimed he didn't say. I just never did.



This is good. Please make sure you and her understand each other before something is brought up to your husband.



One of Webster's definitions.....

"an idealized mental image of another person or the self".

From my understanding....this is therapy that goes back to your upbringing as a child, and how it shapes your life today. I DO NOT believe that your upbringing gives anyone an excuse to behave badly. I only find it helpful to understand where the behaviors came from.

It has been suggested on this site that looking back into childhood is not necessary to correct your marriage today. And I agree. Behavior changes can change instantly with our choice to do so. However, for some people who think they are behaving in a healthy way, when they're really not, may see differently when this stuff is pointed out to them.

Like me for instance.....I probably have a larger fear than some when it comes to abandonment and being alone than other people, because that's what my childhood felt like to me. It just helps me to understand my reactions better, whether they're healthy or not, and also understand my husband's reactions better, whether they are healthy or not.

It quite interesting because it shows you why you picked the partner you did. It is useful knowledge imo.

N.E.D.....

Thank you for pointing this out.....




Honestly, I haven't been this far into the therapy. So maybe I should not have recomended this to Wonderin. I just know that what I've learned so far has been helpful. I am anxious to learn more about this now that you have pointed it out.

And this very thing about "accepting our spouse's shortcomings" has always been a kicker for me when I think about MB vs the Bible. However, that is something I cannot dive into right now, simply due to time.

Wonderin, virtually anyone that is in a relationship with an abuser, particyularly a NPD or BPD, will question whther the problem was within him/herslf.
Read up on the personality disorders. See what others have been through. The very facct that you question whether it was you that was the problem is a pretty good indication that you were not. NPD's and BPDs almost never look within.
These folks are masters at projection, isolation, and deflection. If you argue with one, you are often put on the defensive right away and, before you know it, the topic has changed, entirely and the focus is on some deficienciy with you.
Generally, you will find that in a relationship with the disordered, it is ALWAYS your fault. Now, what are the odds of that being true?
Many in these relationships have never recieved an apology form their disordred spouse during the entire relationship. Now, how likely is it that any normal person will never make a mistake, never be at fault? But, these fols never take responsibility.
Any sane person would tell you that a spouse expecting you to maintain your youth or revise your body has issues with himself.

Every FWS on this board can attest that this is the dumbest quote ever printed on these forums. And I daresay a good example of evidence that you are incapable of truly understanding MB concepts, which may or may not be a facet of why you are no longer married Zelmo. (admittedly I do not know your story - your FWW's may have been the embodiment of "absolute evil", but ... I doubt it)

Here's a hint. The A was 100% your wayward spouses responsibility. And, provided it's over... IT'S OVER. Now fix the marriage, not the affair. And yes, YOU CREATE problems in the marriage also. Maybe 50%, maybe not - it's a subjective argument, and as such isn't worth having. So fix what you know, not the "maybe" problems.

I think you misuderstand what I was trying to say, Skald. It is very common for a partner in a relationship with a disordered spouse to question whether he or she is the cause of all the problems. This is because the BPD or NPD is a master at deflecting and turning things around on one. It had nothing to do with infidleity.
If you read up on the expierience of people who have been in these situations, you will see that a high % come out wondering if it was entirely his or her fault.

I ta.ke no issue with having creatred some problems in the marriage. I merely questioned the blanket 50/50 cliche.
And, I agree, you know nothing about my marriage. I also tend to doubt that you have standing to speak for all FWSs. Were you elected president?

Hmmm...to me that is subjective. Who's to say that when the WS tells of what they need from the BS that they aren't getting is not correct???...That would be a DJ in MB speak. I can tell you that absolutely, without a doubt that H wasn't bringing in much to the marriage, but then again so could he. And he would be RIGHT!!!!...not because I wasn't, but because I was doing what *I* thought was necessary, but not what he needed.

Too many people like to write off the waywards, because of what they have done. Not a fair assessment. Nor will it help in any sort of Recovery efforts.

Listen Z, there are MANY family members, friends, and neighbors that would tell you I was a good wife and mother (and I was....). They would tell you I brought way more to the marriage than H. But in REALITY, not in the ways that H needed. Who are they to tell my H what his EN'S are???....

ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY was I dissatisfied. I have never kept that secret. In fact, in my Plan A thread, there were many times I doubted what I was doing because my OWN EN'S had been unmet for so long.

There are many reasons why I didn't cheat. Good boundaries. Call it what you want, but I have this inner voice, inner bell, something, that when I interact with a male, if things are not on the up-n-up, it goes off. Also, a lack of oppertunity. To be honest, it wasn't there. As a child, my mother took me around her AP. I KNEW the damages that A's create. Maybe some sub-conscious thing kept me from doing it. Also, my sister had just come out of her own affair. It wasn't a pretty sight.

The thing is, I know that I could have found myself in one GIVEN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES. When I first read that in SAA, I knew without a shadow of a doubt, I could. And maybe THAT right there is recognizing my OWN limitations.....to keep myself out of temptations way....

Look, I am not saying that any BS is to blame for an affair. Not matter if they were not meeting EN'S, engaging in LB's, there are ALWAYS different choices to an affair. And that is what the WS own.....

not2fun

Ya grumpy today Zelmo?

Not 2, I take no issue with a BS contributing to the marital problems. In any individual case, a BS could be the major contributor.
I just question the 550-50 applying to all marriages. And, I do think that a WS, by viirute of having displayed such poor problem solving skills and such incrdible dishonesty is more liley to have been the major contributor. Just my opinion.

Not as far as I can tell. Do I sound grumpy?

Yes

Well, I am not grumpy , today.

Are you Sneezy or Bashful today?

It became about infidelity the second you posted it as a reply on an Infidelity thread, as advice to a BS.

Here's the thing Zelmo - too freuqently, posted opinions come off as advice to somebody who is in a hightened emotional state. And in that state, many people are unable to sift through the crap advice and find/follow the good/right advice.

And hey, in regards to the disorders you speak of, your advice/opinion may well be fact. But you just gave somebody who by nature of her situation is seeking an "excuse" to be "right" all the justification needed to stop trying to fix her situation and start focusing on her "problem" - potentially dooming her marriage recovery efforts.

Opinions are great, but when shared or stated as fact, particularly to the wrong people at the wrong time, they can do a lot more harm than good.

Oh btw... over on the passworded "FWS ONLY!!!!" thread that is hidden to BS's eyes, we held a poll and yes.. I was voted the unanimous leader. So, nyah nyah.

Congrats, Skald. Do you guys have a secret handshake and decoder rings?
Look, my response, as far as I can recall, was to someone that had already researched this personalit disorder deal, I think.
I think it is condescending and paternalistic to avoid discussing this issue because of some alleged danger that the person may glom onto it as an excuse for not working on his or her marriage.
People that have been involved with one of these disordered types need some support and validation. And, infidelity is rampant among the disordere, so, yes, a discussion of this is bound to be applicable to some BS's situation.

Pep. I think "Dopey" would be a better fit for me, particularly with all my bong usage as a kid.

And I think that is is shortsighted to believe that there couldn't be other problems creating dsyfunction in the marriage.



The way I see it, this original poster has done nothing but put forth the effort to correct the problem. Makes me wonder if you read the all she had to say about it.

I vote for Doc.

Well, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

We did, but then somebody caught a decoder ring to the eye and we had to come up with something new. We're working on birdcalls right now.


So point them instead to the thread/forum that was created specifically for that purpose. This one happens to be for improving marriages. Maybe try to not post controversial "facts" about a specific condition in an open environment, particularly on a thread that will immediately catch the eye of those who newly discovered that they joined our clubs and will latch onto every ridiculous statement that is spoon-fed to them... right or wrong.

Use a fine brush when needed, and a wide brush to paint a broad picture. For example: All WS's are 100% responsible for their A, and any thoughts otherwise are mere justifications. Statement that is considered "fact" for every case, regardless of circumstances. As opposed to: Even the fact you are wondering if you were part of the Pre-A marriage problems means you probably were not... = specific information that fits into a category and should be contained to that category. Because outside of specific circumstances, that advice is nonsense.

And guess what? Even if her spouse does have BPD - she was STILL RESPONSIBLE for a portion of the declining marriage (sure, maybe not 50%.. but maybe it was 50% too... maybe it was 75%... the amount of responsibility is irrelevant and subjective... fixing what she takes responsibility for is what matters) and fixing those issues will help HER whether it helps to fix the M or not.

Ahh, I didn't see the post where she stated that her WH was diagnosed with a personality disorder. Please, link it for me?

I did see the posts where the OP was possilby justifying her righteous beliefs because her WH has been an a** for years. BTDT - to my BS. And I was wrong. Maybe she fits into the smaller category who is dealing with a true BPD WH and needs help with that (and I missed that post). Maybe she's looking for acceptance and justification for her excuses. Either way, most people will find exactly the information/help/(justification) they are Looking for.

Skald, from my perspective, as a BS, despite being badly traumatized, I beleive I was able to discern what was applicable to my XWW's personality. It was relatively easy to look at her pre-A behaviors and distinguish them from those displayed by a typical WS.
I guess we just view BSs differnetly. I have firsthand expiereince as one.
I do not know your story. Presumably, you admit your behavior as a WS was abusive, but have accepted that, and felt remorse.
I think the key to distinguishing the disordered WS from the simply terribly flawed WS is this lack of remorse. It is seen in behaviors that pre-date the A.

Skald, I don't recall anyone making you the thread police where you get to dictate what goes in one. Sounds pretty arrogant to me.

Also, I'm not doing your homework for you. You read the thread.

Doesn't this statement leave just the tiniest bit of possibility that you were wrong? Not to D, that is a decision you can't be wrong in... but in your opinionated diagnoses. Biased opinions, afterall, are about as useful as one legged soccer players.


I believe the key to distinguishing the disordered WS from the simply terribly flawed WS is the... well, Dr's signature after therapy and counselling. Anything else COULD BE merely justification in reaction to an emotionally difficult situation. And until medically proven otherwise, should be treated as such PROVIDED you WANT to attempt to recover your marriage.

Most WS's (I daresay) villified their Spouse before, during, and/or after the A happened. Re-wrote history so the BS fits into the new persona created - years before any noticeable "problems" really occured. It stands to reason that a BS can do the same.

And I want to be Grumpy today.

How ridiculous to imply that anyone ever said that to suit your need for whatever point you are trying to make.

A little touchy there today Skald? Have you been accused of having a personality disorder?

Ahh, that was the poll directly after all FWS elected me leader. Sorry, you weren't invited apparently.

Here, how about this: She didn't say her husband was diagnosed with a personality disorder (on this thread.) You can't do my homework - it simply doesn't exist.

Good thing too, because I would not have voted for you.



Neither did anyone else, on this thread.

My $.0175:

Thanks to MB and Zelmo in particular, I was able to "connect the dots."

Current Situation = Present Marriage + Past History

When I arrived here, I had never taken WW's past into consideration. My own emotional immaturity had history beginning at Day One: the day we met and began a relationship. WW had me convinced the past was behind her and that she had not only survived, but was a strong, capable woman to boot.

I even remember some "rumblings" when we started dating, that I attributed to "sour grapes:" I had wound up with the head-turning woman that many others lusted after. Fueled by my own insecurities (to this day I do not consider myself a physically attractive man). Even my DD saw things that I did not. In her wisdom (yes, I consider it such), she kept her impressions to herself rather than become an antagonist. Toward the end, DD removed herself from our lives, wanting to have little to do with WW. I was oblivious to what was obvious to thers.

Through the haze and the pain, Zelmo, et al, convinced me to look at the whole picture and when I did, a completely different perspective came into focus. [i]I[/i} was the one who carried the load in our relationship. She would refer to us as being "partners," but there was very little about it that ultimately did not wind up being about her Even the A that broke us apart was about her. It was just "part of her journey" she casually tossed off. No care about vows, commitment, obligations, honor or integrity.

When I looked at the whole picture, The Leopard came into view. She was behaving in character. Her leaving me and the marriage was just another in her growing string of failures based on her inability to react and respond to conditions in a mature, responsible manner.

Understanding that, I then had to be honest and ask myself, "Do I really want to recover this marriage and return to a life that will likely result in my health problems (a reported side-effect of being in a relationship with a disordered person), uncertainty, distrust and emotional abuse?"

Only someone as sick and crazy as I was when I got here would answer "yes." But it took some real honest people here who didn't try to sugarcoat things to make me take a good look at my own issues, and to assess the fork in the road and to choose which I wanted to take.

It's been painful and extremely sad, but I have chosen to let The Leopard continue on her wayward --and disordered-- ways. Without me.

You should ask Pep to borrow her cape and tights...she isn't wearing them today.

Yeah, I don't think the newly betrayed are as easily influenced as Skald seems to think they are. It is critical to look at pre_A behavior, and I do think that BSs can do this.
From what I have read, this infidelity business is widespread among the disordered. So, it makes sense tome to ask folks to look into it as a possible explanation.

Skald's objjection sort of reminds me of a recent remark from MEl. I had remarked on how I'd read that most affairs remain undiscovered. I relayed this information in a post and one recently minted WS read it.
Mel seemed to think that by simply disclosing this study about lack of discovery, I was ,in some way advocateing this young woman continue her subterfuge.
The PD stuff is good info for a BS to consider, IMO.

I feel sad that people think they have to stay married to users, the mentally emotionally disordered, extremely cold and selfish, and abusive spouses.

Maybe the main trouble is that the people who marry these idiots do not CHOOSE CAREFULLY who they become close to. They are emotionally blind to the partner's flaws, maybe too trusting, or too in love to see the whole picture. If they are in luck they do not start a family with these people....and bring children into the disorder.

A disordered spouse disrupts a household and damages everyone else that the disordered is around. There is no healing there or working with the situation. The disordered WARPS everyone around them. Causing permanent damage. I have seen it with my own sisters marriage, her 54 year old husband is now so beaten down he cannot look anyone in the face. In addition, he takes her abuse even in public or when people are visiting.

Some spouses are too disordered to ever be married in any kind of healthy happy way. But because of thier looks or something, people keep marrying them and suffering.

But, like Wonderin, people can WAKE UP TO THE TRUTH of thier disordered spouse. In time to end the damage and have a good life for themselves.

Is she running around nekked??

That is a triggering statement for me for sure!

When my husband and I separated a few months after the polygraph, due to my being angry over the lack of empathy, and bleeding to death from the thousand cuts, he spent the next 10 months in "individual" counseling, LICKING HIS WOUNDS, and told me "that he was on an exciting journey". Finding himself no doubt.

Yep.

I tend to agree if they have the same complaints that I have, or you have had, and even the ones that Wonderin has had.



Agreed.

Just because PD stuff is mentioned, or even diagnosed, in no way shape, form, or fashion excuse bad behavior. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say that it does. Just because you may understand where the immaturity comes from, doesn't mean you have to accept it.

I think she is seated. If she is running too....

She better be careful standing up - that really hurts when your legs get stuck to the chair.

Good hygiene may help this problem.

That was not a visual I needed so soon after lunch.

All'ya'alls now on ignore

To continue on Larry's list: And you can be a man and suck down a fair amount of brew, and do bongshots.

Wonderin

You said this a few weeks ago:



So my question is...

Are you looking for validation or support for your recovery?

In this thread alone, you have taken yourself down a dark path of trying to figure out blame, guilt and fault.

Others came along to commiserate and you seemed to acknowledge them. I remind you...the root word of "commiserate" is "misery".

You said things like "you needed your husband to acknowledge this and that that he did in the past as hurtful"...

NO YOU DON'T.

It would be nice if he did...but you don't NEED IT. Furthermore, it is MOST LIKELY TO HAPPEN if and when HE falls romantically in love with you again....which won't likely happen until you also fall in romantic love with him.

This is all a twisted mind game of security versus insecurity. Being confident in who you are and loving yourself to the extent that it's possible for others (your FWH) to love you. You shouldn't need his "acknowledgement" because YOU KNOW what he did and said was mean, cruel and abusive and in no way really said ANYTHING about YOU. Such meanness, cruelity, abusiveness and betrayal is and was always about HIM. He WILL love you again because you are lovable. You are lovable because YOU ARE an attractive, confident, loving, warm, tender, etc. woman. If you aren't at this position yet...you work on building yourself up TO that position of confidence (your side of recovery).

Think back to when you dated and he fell in love with you the first time. Did you scrutinize his behavior and actions or did you behave confidently and self-assured?

The two year after d-day mark is a milestone AND a fork in the road. The TRAUMA is over. Some new habits have formed and you haven't thrown him out (and he hasn't left). Now is the time some/many BS's feel it's put up or shove off time whereas WS's get complacent and HOPE "dealing" with "it" is mostly over. What the WS needs to understand is that the trauma you endured AND overcame MUST BECOME WORTH IT.

However, for now...I'm unsure what you want. Validation or support. I see you stepping backward to near d-day comments and posts about your husband's behavior long ago. You've even acknowledged them when just a few weeks ago you were saying something completely different about your FWH's behavior. IMO, this is exactly where the inappropriate dwelling on fault and blame will take you....backwards. This could help you if you are still punishing your FWH or simply maintaining walls to keep him out emotionally.

So I guess I need to know which direction are you headed?

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- You took 7 months off from here and your first post back was what I posted above... It was more "positive" than anything you've written since. Perhaps some of these posters above are the ones that attract you and take you backwards. If recovery is what you want...seek out those that have recovered and forget about all this validation seeking. The ONLY relevance your husband's affair from two years ago has today is that YOU WILL NO LONGER TOLERATE A LOVELESS MARRIAGE because of it. It has to be great...doesn't it?

p.p.s. - Is he aware of these forums and willing to post?

How bout asking rather than speculating?

Yes, and I've already outlined what my H and I have determined to be my contribution to the sate of the pre-A marriage. I'm not here looking for a way to avoid responsibility. I know full well that I am not innocent. I'll never be perfect, and I'll be working on becomming a better person for the rest of my life, because this side of glory, it ain't gonna happen.

You don't seem to understand my point. I only wanted to know if other people felt that SAA gives WSs an out, because IMO, it allows my H to shift responsibility to me. It allows him to continue to say that my failure to morph into an altogether new woman who had a body type that I have never had was the reason he was vulnerable to an A. I take issue with that. I take issue with the fact that on our wedding day, he said I met all of his AS needs and 2 years later, with no changes at all, I didn't.

Now I've already listed the poor choices I made in response to this request. I was not innocent there. I LBed to the hilt. But if he can look back on our situation and honestly say that any part of the way he treated me was ok, that my physical shortcommings left him vulnerable to the A, then he is not a man I want to be married to. It may seem rediculous to you, but going forward with a man who could do as much damage as he did and say that it was justified, is not ok with me. That's all. I simply take issue with the idea of each partner sharing 50%, as I don't believe that is always the case.

In addition, I do have a brain. You seem to think that because someone has posted something to me, I will treat that as license to continue in bad behavior. I think it is helpful to hear the insight other people have obtained while on their own journey. I have the capacity to read about THEIR experience and determine whether or not it fits for me. I also have a wonderful support group and a counselor who tell me the truth about my perceptions and set me straight if I'm chasing rabits. I'm not stupid. I don't feel that anyone here has said: this is the case for you. Believe it. Don't look into it. Do this. People are simply offering information that has helped them, so that I might find a new bit of truth. I appreciate that. It is helpful to me.


You don't know a lot about my sit, and I don't appreciate the fact that you seem to imply that I am not looking to improve our M. Heck, I'm still trying to save it, even though my feelings are flat. I have done a lot to improve myself whether our M makes it or not, and I'm not about to quit now. Coming here looking for someone who might have a similar circumstance, who might know something I don't, who might be able to point me in a new direction does not mean that I am not willing to work on myself.

[quote]"Do I really want to recover this marriage and return to a life that will likely result in my health problems (a reported side-effect of being in a relationship with a disordered person), uncertainty, distrust and emotional abuse?"
quote]

I completely relate to your post. This is the question I'm weighing in my mind. If he still thinks like the thought before the A...even if he meets ENs and avoids LBs as best he can...will it be a marriage I want to be a part of? I'm not sure it is.

Validation or support? How about both. After all this is the "Surviving an Affair" section. One might survive best by getting out. Once there is cheating, that is a valid option, IMO.

Mr. Wondering, Thanks for your post. I appreciate your observations, and you have indeed made me think. I usually take a while to process and really come to any solid conclusion, and I just read your post, but I will write based on my first instincts.


OK, you are right, I do not literally need him to acknowledge those things. It is in my desire to continue sharing my life with a man who thinks like he thinks that things get hairy. I know so much more now than I did pre A. And I look back on my sit with total disgust. And I don't just mean him, I mean ME! Why was I such a doormat? I do not want to be that woman anymore. And if I stay with him even though he continues in the same line of thought, I feel like I'm still the doormat that I was for years. I have waited 2 years for him to "get" some things. And I'm beginning to feel quite hopeless that he ever will. So, it leaves me wondering if I am OK staying in a marriage where my H may very well continue in the same attitudes and thought patterns evident through our married life thus far.


I agree with this. But again, if he never looks into what all of that said about *him* do I want to stay? BTW, my H does claim to be "in love" with me. He says that it is so ironic that he was "miserable" in our marriage and now that he isn't, I am. You have referenced my prior post, and I stand by it. He has done a great job of working on meeting ENs, avoiding LBs, and coming to mutually enthusiastic decisions...and I am still unhappy. I'm just not into him. At. All.


This was before the emotional beating, but yes I did. And though I've struggled with self esteem since this began, I really feel more confident today than I was even when we were dating. I like myself so much more. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I look back and think my H was just plain crazy, because I was and am a catch. He just couldn't/wouldn't see any of the good in me. And I believe that is because he wanted me to live up to fantasy.


BINGO. That really says it all. I believe that a BS must work through the trauma and do the hard work of personal recover whether or not they stay in the marriage. So I don't regret a minute of the work I've done. However what will make it "worth it" may not be staying, in my case. I guess I feel like he hasn't changed much at the core level. His behaviors have, but not the deep cellular him. And I don't know if I like that man anymore. I'm not sure staying with him IS worth it.



Well, I started this post because I was honestly curious about what other SAA believers thought about the concept of pre-A issues leading to vulnerability, which led to the A. Did anyone else consider this to be on "out" for a WS. That was all. And after reading some replies, I got off discussing my personal situation and why I believe that it does...at least in some cases. Then, some posters got me thinking about some new ideas, and it kinda evolved from there. When I talk with others who've traveled this road, I love to hear their stories, what they've learned, how they've grown. I can often glean a bit of knowledge from thier wisdom that applies to my own life. I like to know if they think I am headed the wrong directions (and so I appreciate your pointing out my backsliding), and I like to know that I'm not alone. That someone else understands or has been there.


Again, thanks for pointing this out. I don't want to go backwards. And I think you have pinpointed 2 of my "stuck" places. I am in bondage to obsessive thinking, which IS unhealthy dwelling. I keep quoting Romans 8:6 - the mind controlled by the Spirit is peace and life. For a reason I haven't determined, I am stuck dwelling on all that went wrong in our M. And you hit #2 on the head - I like the excuse to keep my emotional walls as high as I possibly can. I do not really want to let him back in. I know this, but I don't yet know what to do about it...or if it just means that we aren't gonna be married at the end of it all. It is at the top of my list of things to discuss with my counselor.


I want to move forward, Mr. W. I'm just not sure that it will be with my H.

Has your wayward husband been clinically diagnosed with a personality disorder?

Good luck getting a dx. Some do, but it seems it is rare. Tough to get most in for the eval/ A catch 22. If you go on the support boards, most never have a dx. So, there is some question as to whether folks have it right, for sure.
To me, it is much like detecting infidelity with a relatively good liar and someone who has covered her/his tracks relatively well.
At some point, you need to trust your gut. Not the best for certainty, but not much choice, most of the time.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, my H has always known about the forums. He hates them. He will never post, and I have no idea if he reads what I write.

{{{Wonderin}}}

I truly hope that you will get to where you want to be.

Knowledge is a good thing. I trust that you will use all that you have learned wisely, no matter who gives it.

Very well thought out response, Wonderin. I think it is normal to look at whether one wants to continue with someone capable of this betrayal, regardless of whether the cheater is doing the repair work.
Harley, himself, says he would not want to stick around.

When I read SAA, I didn't read an out for myself, but at that point I already was realizing just how horrible I had become. My A was 100% my responsibility. I did not have an A because I have bipolar, and I do not have bipolar because I had an A. Could one have been related to the other? Yes. But it was still my responsibility.

My life has improved SO MUCH as a result of my lond overdue diagnosis and treatment, I am a big proponent of those who need help for mental illness getting it. However, am also cautious, because with a diagnosis (real or speculative) can come two things: the ill using the illness as an excuse for their behavior, thereby freeing them from all responsibility, OR those around the ill seeing the illness as a mechanism for freeing them because "the person was so damaged/sick/messed up there was no hope anyway."

I do have to say that I am grateful for a H who has chosen to pu up with a mentally ill wife, and I am thankful for the children we brought into this world in spite of it.

Oh, one more thing Mr. W, that roller coaster that most BSs ride after an affair...I never really got off. Its gotten better, but its not gone. So, I may be more positive or negative depending on what went on that day...how much time I spent in with God, the kids, trigggers/dreams, my H. My hope ebbs and flows along with the ups and downs of the roller coaster.

I've been thinking about WHY I can't seem to shake the obsessive thinking. Here it is: I think that the wounds from my H's criticisms pre-A are perhaps deeper than the ones of betrayal. And I know that they are less healed. If he cannot make ammends or see how damaging his treatment was during this time...if there is any chance that he has given up the hurtful behaviors but still maintains the same thought patterns, beliefs or attitudes, then I do not want to carry on in this marriage.

What does he say about having hurt you like that and his attitude about your body etc.?

Perhaps the husband does not want to do the hard work of repentance, humble reflection of what he has done, and restoration of trust and love.

Before you give up Wonderin, you might try hard, blunt, direct confrontation of him and his attitudes. Be like me, try the machine gun approach to the problem as a last ditch effort before giving up.

I would like to see this man remorseful to the max, his spirit broken, him down on his knees repentant and his attitudes that you are not good enough..... totally eradicated and banished.

To that goal I pray for you and your marriage!!!

Until that happens, the marriage will not flourish.

I had several discussions about this just after my DDay.

I was 50% responsible for the state of my marriage, however, I EARNED a 'A' on MY 50%!

My H had, like Wonderin's, 'lust' issues.

I was a good wife. We'd only been married a couple of years before DDay. We had good jobs, no kids, plenty of money, friends, hobbies, health (aka: no outside stressor's).

I was happy, friendly AS. SF was frequent and fun. Lots of RC, DS, 50+ hours of UA a week. No opposite sex friends, etc. Boundaries out the yahoo!

I was here pouring over the EN section, trying to figure out my part in this, how I Plan A this. Fortunately, my H did not try to but blame on me, but I certainly did. If I had been (smarter? more vigilant? kinkier? more attractive? Which EN did I miss?) "I" could have prevented this, and then, fixed it.

I begged him to tell me what I could do/could have done. His answer was always "nothing". He did the LB questionnaire, could only give me (in his words), very minor grievances (and they were). He begged me to STOP as it wasn't about me. I thought that if I just worked harder, I could find 'the answer'.

I believe it was the nekkid Pep who advised me that when a marriage is otherwise sound, a VERY short Plan A can be utilized. Because if the BS was a pretty good spouse (with not a lot of LB's to clean up themselves), then it really IS all about the WS! (paraphrasing...)

I KNOW that I did not contribute to my H's problems.
However, HIS problems affected our marriage.

And after much SA (sexual addiction) counseling for both of us, I had to accept that this wasn't about me.

I was 50% responsible for the state of my marriage, but I did a pretty good job. I think that's where people stop with that line of thinking...

You can ONLY control YOUR 50%.

Wonderin, if your H is still (4 YEARS after DDay) not taking 100% responsibility for his actions, I would be VERY worried. If he's in denial, he could be acting out.
That he could even THINK (much less vocalize) that his new found interest in skanks could have been addressed by you is a HUGE red flag. Does not sound like he's anywhere near recovery.

Is he in a men's group? Counceling? IC or MC? Sounds like it may be the time, if not. You've got two small children now... Please take care!

I feel the same way as Drucila. I am a person that has a relatively easy time owning mistakes. I have no hesitation in apologizing to someone when I am wrong.
But, I am certain I was a good, caring, kind husband. I was responsible, hardworking and a good father, as well.
I sincerely feel that the cheating had nothing to do with me.

The thing to remember is that the AFFAIR is not in any way, shape, or form the BS's fault. IF....

the WS was unhappy, not getting EN'S met, or whatever, there were OTHER NON-harmful ways to handle this. They could have seperated, initiated counseling, or just gone ahead and filed for a divorce. There were a BAZILLION other ways to handle marital discord other than to have an affair. The fact that they choose to handle the discord with an affair is THEIRS alone to OWN.

That being said, for MANY WS, when they do speak of their what they need (EN'S), they should not be discounted because they have had an affair. IF....

the BS truly wants to reconcile and save the marriage, they TOO must look deep inside themselves and see what it is they can do to meet the WS EN'S and get rid of LB'S.

While the state of the M pre-A could be either spouse's fault, the affair lies squarely on the shoulders of the WS. And if the WS wants to hide this fact behind the mantra of "my-needs-were-not-getting-met", then they are not a spouse worth keeping....IMO

Well, this is what bugs me. It was the reason I originally started this post. He will say, I am 100% responsible for the affair. It was not your fault. Then in the next breath, he says: I was vulnerable to it because of unmet needs. I know what that unmet need was - it was that of an attractive spouse. And so to me, it is like saying you didn't cause the affiar, but had you been thinner, I would not have been vulnerable to it.

I realize, as many have posted, that I brought our situation down by responding poorly to his request. We didn't seek mutually enthusiastic solutions. I LBed. But when he talks about what made him vulnerable, it isn't those things...it is my failure to meet the need. Maybe he just doesn't articulate himself well...but it is the possiblity that he does that leaves me leary.

We've talked about it. He says that he wasn't cruel, he was trying to encourage me and give me ideas about how to "achieve the goal (which in actuality was HIS goal)." He says he is sorry that I interpreted it as cruelty, but that wasn't his intent.

I find that insane, because I certainly told him how damaging his comments were. I also find it off, because I can't find one person who thinks saying things like he said is encouraging. In fact I never considered the potential that they were abusive until several people pointed out to me (some on this forum, but I didn't listen until after the A). Because he didn't seem to "get" it, I would often LB with AO. So there was this crazy dance we did that was harmful to both of us.

When we talk about it, he likes to talk about the ways I hurt him in the dance. He blameshifts. I feel like he says one thing, but the rest of his talk doesn't support it.

I don't feel like he recognizes the damage done. And I don't feel like he is sorry.

Thank you for your insights. I have read a lot on SA, and while I think there are some parallels, I'm not sure that is really what we are dealing with. I do feel like my H made me responsible for solving the lust battle by becomming the fantasy. That part of SA fits. My H says it might be partly true, but to say that it was ONLY lust and an evolving addiction would be too simplistic for him. His unmet needs, he says were a big factor in moving from porn to an A. He claims that most men have some degree of SA...

Like another poster suggested, sometimes I WISH he had full blown SA, because I can feel a lot more compassion and hope for a sick person than a plain selfish one.


Thank you for this. I don't see the same signs as during the A, so if he is acting out, it is with porn. Not to say that is OK with me, it isn't. But I am confident that there is no live person involved. I feel no need to check up on him anymore. In part, I think that is because I don't really care if he chooses another A or not. In part, it is because I don't have any red flags. I think he has a lot of personal recovery work ahead of him, but I've let go of trying to control that. It is up to him to get well or not. I don't know if I'll stay married if he doesn't do something soon though.

He has a men's group, but he rarely goes these days. We've been in MC since D Day. We are going to start with a new counselor and rotate, IC for him, IC for me, one session of MC and so on. I'm really looking forward to it, because I think IC was a missing piece to full healing for us. I'm also excited about the fact that my H is so anxious to see this C. He really respects her, so I feel like she may be able to break through where some others were not.

Hi, i wish I could help figure out your husband and why he does that thing with your weight, It is hurtful to say point blank to the woman you claim to love that SHE IS NOT MEETING YOUR ATTRACTIVE SPOUSE NEED. IN OTHER WORDS, SHE IS NOT ATTRACTIVE. IN FACT SHE IS SO UNNATRACTIVE TO YOU THAT YOU (HE) ARE FORCED TO HAVE AN AFFAIR WITH A MORE ATTRACTIVE PERSON.

YOU ARE CUTE AND NOT OVERWEIGHT!!! AND THE IDIOT DOES NOT LIKE YOUR LOOKS??? THEN WHAT HAPPENED AND WHY DID HE MARRY YOU?? oVER OTHERS?

Maybe i could see it if you were hugely fat, like double your present weight, and wearing sweats all the time and not caring for your body and your hair.......he could carefully help with your looks and weight. Or better yet, he could have refrained from marrying you because he had higher expectations of the woman he married...then there would not be the hurt.

If you were correct weight when marrying him and then became 100 lbs heavier, he could ease into helping you lose it because he loved you enough to want you to live. This is not the same as telling a regular weight, cute mother of his children that you do not and never have met his need for attractive spouse.

NO MAN WHO LOVED YOU WOULD EVER SAY THAT TO YOU, NO MATTER WHAT,

If this were the case, that you blatently and on purpose gained 150 lbs and also had a bad personality or addictions or other unpleasant things about you then it would be STILL HURTFUL TO TELL YOU THAT YOU WERE NOT MEETING HIS NEED FOR AN ATTRACTIVE SPOUSE.

If you were as ugly and hideous, even deformed, as the elephant man was, then, even then, your husband saying you did not quite meet his need for attractive spouse would be extremely hurtful and terrible...your deformity is something you did not cause just as your body type is something you did not cause.

Embrace your self like God made you,. LOVe the way God made your precious body there is nothing wrong with it. But there is a lot wrong with your husband NOT embracing your precious body.

I just got an idea, why not hit it at the source, directly every day.

Tomorrow, tell your husband you want to change something and it will help your marriage., You want him to embrace you, your personality, and your body that God made for you.

He should not insult something God made. Namely YOU.

You want this from him;"

You want compliments about your body every day.
You want NO insults about it
He is not even to THINK of how your body could be better
He is to totally accept your body, hair, looks, and personality.
He is to express every day how much he loves you and loves your body as it is,


I am just brainstorming because i think the man is a jack [censored]. His heart needs to be completely changed and he does not even see that. YOU would NEVER insult HIM or anyone else the way he insults you thru the entire marriage.

a possible scenereo: Lets say you tell him these things as I thought of them, what if your husband says OK, but then goes underground with his dislike of your body, instead of saying you do not meet his EN, he just shuts up. Then, what would happen?

Would he have other affairs?
Look at other women who he likes thier bodies better?
Not change any of his attitudes?


I do not know what is wrong with this man but it is terribly terribly hurtful what he is saying and doing, I dont see how you could even stand to have sex with such a man. It would make me lose all sexual confidence and love of my own body if I had to be naked in front of a man who I knew hated my body,

I wont bother you any more here, but i feel for you, you have more of an idea what the truth is now, I hope something causes him to see what is important in a marriage and what is not and that he is hurting you terribly which is hurting the whole marriage,

This is what Dr. Harley says about the need for Physical Attractiveness:

Bubbles -

my H does not do those things today. NONE of them. He is not LBing with SD, IBs, insults, etc. He IS meeting my ENs. I am not dealing with these hurts today, but rather the LINGERING EFFECTS OF THE HURTS FROM THE PAST.

The only hurtful thing I deal with TODAY is the hint that perhaps some of his pre-A behavior was ok...or that I caused it. Like I've said before, this could be my misinterpretation, his poor articulation, or that he really hasn't adopted new attitudes and beliefs. I don't know.
We have had several talks about our "dance" pre-A, and he is well aware of the things that I take grievance with.

Currently, he has done and is doing the work to follow the SAA/HNHN philosopy. I have found it odd that doing those things to restore in love feelings has not worked for me. I came here to find out if anyone else had found this to be true. To find out it anyone else took issue with the "I'm 100% responsible for the A, but my unmet needs left me vulnerable" statement. That's it. Not to bash H. He failed in a lot of ways. So did I.

Drgnfly,

I am not here to debate the validity of the need for an AS. It is real, it is valid. I am VERY aware of what that need looks like. And I'm VERY aware of the ways to meet that need for my H.

The only piece that I oppose it his request that I be thinner than I was on my wedding day. To me, that is not a need (or else why would he have picked me as his bride?) but an attempt to meet fantasy so that he doesn't "need" to act out inappropriately.