Last night I participated in this again ("this" is fully explained in post #2344058 HERE...It was easier than the last time. He was "waiting" for me in the bed. And, he was very much aroused and very much into it. At this point, he is being far more affectionate. Started kissing me goodbye in the a.m. as we're leaving for work. I continue to be affectionate as weel - I place my hand on his back & rub it while we're driving, touch him lovingly in small ways throughout the day.....things like that. I am doing this and thinking "feelings follow behavior." MB is marriage based. The thing is - I am feeling very confused, but I am not sure why. It may be because I am feeling a little "used"...((groan)) I don't know...Not sure. I also keep wondering if there's someone else out there for me. Wondering if I am making a mistake by trying to save this marriage.

I am trying with all my mental might to manage these feelings.

Not sure if they're linked to the sex. I guess they aren't. I mean - I recall typing these same thoughts here earlier when he and I were barely speaking, not co-sleeping, & I was first trying to do MB. Maybe they are linked to this-->

I have been snooping because of some things I saw on the SAA threads...People being blindsided because they just "knew" there was no way their spouse could be cheating. In his email I found some porn site subscriptions (free 3 day trials & then the cancellations). On the online billing records for our cell phones I found quite a bit of text message activity between him and a female friend - knew about the friend but didn't know how frequent the communications were, and on his cell phone I found text message exchange between him and someone (a woman) which made my heart jump:


My H NEVER tells me I am pretty or calls me "Pretty Lady." In the past, when I asked him why, he said he "just isn't that type of person."

This made me look a little more into the billing records for the cell phones and I found a few more exchanges but I couldn't see exactly what was said or sent because he has already erased it from his cell phone. Within minutes I was able to find out exactly who this woman was, her address, her employment info and her Facebook Page. They aren't friends on Facebook and the cell phone contact seems to be sporadic. There are a few brief calls as well.

Do I think he's having an affair? No. But I do think he has flirted and is flirting with this woman.

I thought that I should take a page from Mark1952's book & become his "best option" and keep the info I discovered to myself while being on the lookout for more info of the same. Am I right to handle it this way or should I confront him with what I found? (Which is one questionable text message exchange between him & this person plus records of a few other texts & brief conversations...)

I am nervous because I just brought him out of Withdrawl. I don't want to make the wrong move now.

Chris, I'm sorry, but it very likely IS a full-blown physical affair. It almost always is. Why wouldn't it be?

OMG

I would say nothing and start doing some super sleuthing. Don't confront him without more evidence right now. Spying 101

It sounds to me like an emotional affair, which can quickly graduate to a physical affair, if it hasn't already. Flirting is not HARMLESS, it is a form of courting and what you describe below is more akin to an affair than flirting.

If he is communicating with her through his cell phone, I would install flexispy on his phone. Where is he when he is "on his shift?" Is that on a computer at work?

How else would he be communicating with her? Does she live close by? Who is she? A coworker?


p.s. just a suggestion, but folks could understand your posts better if they don't have to go look at other threads to get it. I would try and make your point in this thread instead of sending folks off to read another thread. Most ppl don't have the time for that.

Chris, I said the EXACT same thing when I first found inappropriate communication between now XH and a female co-worker. (telling myself it was flirting not a PA) It took exactly 24 hours after installing a keylogger to discover it was full blown PA.

Listen to the vets here. They are almost always right. Continue to snoop but don't let on. If you get evidence, keep gather for as long as you can stand it. It will help you regardless of what you decide to do in the end.

I'm sorry. I know that sickening feeling.

It's at least an EA. The flirting makes it so. The chance is good that it's going PA if it hasn't already. Time for major snooping.

Chris, you couldn't be in a better place to use this tragedy to take your marriage from something you were both unhappy in, to the marriage both of you have always wanted.

Read the spying 101 thread ML linked above. How do you feel about keep up Plan A for now? You can always decide differently later. Call the Harleys again if you can. Keep working on getting your physical and mental strength up, take great care of yourself, hon.

(((Hugs)))

Mel,

He has a PRN (part time, hours "as needed") job & he doesn't go there regularly and he hasn't been there in months. He hates working there. He's a security officer.

He recently did one shift to earn some extra $ to buy some tools to do woodworking with our son. We had not budgeted for the tools, but we make pretty good money & there are other things we buy which aren't budgeted for too.

Yes - She works there but in a different capacity than him. I have all her info. She lives about 40 minutes away from our home but about 20 minutes away from the worksite.

The thing is - my H & I have have NO unaccounted for time. We always know where the other person is.

Mel, I will follow your advice about not confronting him and collecting more info, but do I still meet his ENs including the sex thing we just started? This is an untimely discovery because he appears to be responding so well to the MB stuff I am doing. Many times when I am talking with him, I have to control myself from spilling the beans!

I agree with this. As a wise woman told me once, LAY LOW and CATCH the HO!!!

How does your H know this woman? Through work?....

Look at the spying 101 thread and the first thing I would do is get some spyware on that computer ASAP.....looking at porn is not constructive for your marrriage either.....

Not2fun

Chris, does he have a computer that he uses? Does he stay up late at night on his computer?

You mentioned previously that he had gone out for a "boys night." How do you know he really did that?


Well, you know what he TELLS you about how he spends his time. Keep that in mind.

Chris, unfortunately I agree with all of these posters. I too thought that I knew where my WH was at all times. He worked. Well, he would leave work EARLY and spend lunches and breaks with POSOW. I found out about some phone calls and I talked with her and met with her a couple of times. Well, on Dec18/09 I asked him to move out so I could go into plan B and he moved right in with POSOW. He has been living with her ever since. I had installed a keylogger and found one sided chats from WH to POSOW and he said things like, "You looked really cute today. Oh you always look cute. I love you." When was the last time my WH told me that I was cute? I can't even tell you.

I don't want to be right. I don't want us to be right. You already know that YOU'RE RIGHT.

Yes he does stay up late @ night on his computer. He is in an MBA Program. I am on the computer late at night too. I have a web page as a hobby, but lately I have been here @ MB.


I didn't follow him so I have no visual confirmation.


Most of it is easily confirmable. For most of our lives what we did is go to work, pick up our child, and come home. Random calls to the office / unit confirm he (or me) were where we said we were.

Again, I am not thinking PA but I am thinking flirting.

Then again...This weekend I intitated a discussion about cheating because of something we heard on the radio. I said he previously told me that cheating = THE END of a marriage. He said that he didn't exactly say that. OH YES HE HAS...many times during our Marriage. Yet this time it was, "It depends on the context. For example, if a couple is like how we were a few weeks ago when one of us said IT'S OVER, I wouldn't blame the other spouse for doing something because they were told it's over."

WTF? That's a red flag huh? I'm thinking of asking directly - Did something happen during that week when you told me it's over? The thing is - he didn't leave the house that week. We were snowed in.

I am trying with ALL my might not to call this girl and just ASK her what the story is! I can;t do that without it getting back to him though - so I am stuck in this hell.

With the new upswing in his behavior, I don;t want to do the wrong thing because of my emotions.

DON'T call her YET(if ever, unless Melodylane asks you to). I talked to POSOW right up until I found the stuff from the keylogger and she denied denied denied. She wants him too. They said things to me like, "He/She is not even my type.", "I can't even imagine being with him/her." Really? Then why are they playing house now? Waywards LIE. People committing ADULTERY LIE.

Keep snooping and do a solid Plan A.

God, he just called and spoke to me SO lovingly on the phone. I am in Crazyland with all of this. If I had not found MB we would still be in the "Let's get a divorce phase" and I would be 100% GLAD I found this information.


OK...Keep snooping & doing my plan A. Check.

One thing I want to point out...these texts occurred on 3/14 and he indicated that he'd be "in" on the 20th.

If this were an active affair they'd be much more involved in their daily schedules than pointing out where they were going to be 6 days later. Contact would be CONSTANT as in emails, texts and calls 20 to 100 times a day.

Doesn't mean it's not inappropriate and might be an indication of an affair in the making but please realize you are in a room full of people who's spouses ALREADY went down a path that included text messages and the like exactly like these. Our collective hindsight on SAA is a bit skewd to say EVERYTHING is an affair.

Just because A + B equalled C for us...doesn't mean A = C for you.

Keep on the look out for more but here's to hoping that this suspected OW is the 70 year old happily married one legged hairlipped hippie with yellow teeth receptionist that just likes to flirt inappropriately.

Don't panic.

Mr. Wondering

Chris, Prisca and I are so sorry to hear this.


MelodyLane, thank you for supplying that word "courting." Helps my understanding and helps me to express something better.

I've heard people before say things like "My husband has lunch with a lady from work, but it's not an affair." And my response to them is: your husband took that lady on a date; is it appropriate for your husband to be dating other women?

Flirting isn't dating, but it is courtship behavior. Ugh. Many people don't understand how inappropriate it is, for some insane reason I do not fully understand. No, it doesn't always indicate that people are physically committing adultery. But it's an inappropriate piece of behavior.

On the plus side: you finally have a crucial valuable piece of information about what is wrong with your marriage. With a little more information, you can fight the disease and your marriage can recover, given support and guidance from the excellent folks here.

Good point Mr W.

I hate that my view is so A filled. I try not to do that. To be honest, I didn't even notice the dates were a few days apart either, I was FOCUSED on the content.

The advice is still the same. SNOOP and Plan A until you KNOW for sure.

I do not care if my thoughts are skewed or not, if a women were to text my h calling him "baby" and he respond with "pretty lady" regardless of how long apart the messages are or anything else, i would DEFINITELY think it was inappropriate to say the LEAST and bordering on EA and i would certainly think something was going on for sure. He should not be talking that way to another women nor let her talk to him in that manner.

I'm glad Mr. W said this:


Not saying you shouldn't be vigilant but this might be a case of hearing hoofbeats and assuming Zebras, not horses.

You are both in a position in your marriage where the atmosphere is there for an affair. Good on you for taking steps to move your marriage away from it!

I agree with Mr. W. Inappropriate conversation, potential for trouble, but most probably NOT an EA or PA at the moment.

Keep your eye out, keep working Plan A.

Yes - I thought of that. I checked the cell phone bill call / text logs and found INFREQUENT contact between him & her. But there were a few 1 minute calls. THAT seems odd to me.

Also, there was actually much more text activity between him & the female friend who lives in Arizona. Ms. Arizona has 6 kids from several different men and she has mental issues. If my H leaves me for her, then I am a really sad person and I really do need some self improvement.


True...But I don't want to be a fool either.

Truthfully, neither of us has the time to nurture a "proper" affair. By that I mean the time where you are able to build some sort of connection or even another life with an OW or OM.

God knows I had the opportunity during the deployments but the thought NEVER crossed my mind. I was waiting for my "beloved warrior" to return. Until he did, I was keeping our house in order & taking care of our child - that was my job...& That was my mentality.


I found her FB page & high school graduate info. She is 35. But looking at her - I didin't see her as any type of threat. Anyway - I know that the OW / OM isn't all about the looks. They are about the sweetness of secrecy & the unmet ENs.

I will try not to panic Mr W...I will try.

Actually now - I feel quite numb.

Looking up SIM card readers and Flexispy right now...

Not true. If your H were to leave you for her, then it means he has a lack of boundaries and is making poor decisions. This does not reflect on you.

Word.

More details to note....

He didn't respond IMMEDIATELY. His response was around 4 hours later.

Not typical of an affair at all [more particularly on his end]

Mr. W

I second this. I'm sorry and glad. Glad you are uncovering the truth. Sorry the truth may be what it appears to be.

FOR SURE. MY WH lives with POSOW. That says NOTHING about me and EVERYTHING about HIM. Letting my WH abuse me by continuing his A while living with me would have said much more about ME. Besides, they always say that Wayturds AFFAIR DOWN. It may not be looks or social status but it is DEFINITELY true in MORALS and PERSONALITY(and in my case it is TRUE for EVERYTHING).

Well, regarding the inappropriate texts, it may not necessarily be a ROMANTIC affair; however, some men seem to like having female friends who offer no-strings benefits.

Kinda like an "She's just a fun person to hang out with once in a while, and I get laid, too" attitude...which is a REALLY SUCKY ATTITUDE about sex, IMHO.

So, his delay in answering her text isn't really surprising if she's just someone he hooks up with once in a while.

I'd keep snooping on this.

It was actually days later....She sent the "Baby" message on 3/11 & he sent the "pretty lady" response the night of 3/14...She did not reply.

Another thing to think about: My AT&T text messages don't always get delivered right away. I have gotten some that were sent several days earlier. I don't know what's up with that, but it happens.

I fully intend to keep snooping.

ugh... this is a common rationalization for an affair. A WS will tell his spouse that they want a divorce, so they tell themselves "the marriage is over, therefore I am ENTITLED to cheat." He has apparently entertained this rationalization in his mind and has been thinking about it. We have had - usually wayward wives - pronounce themselve "separated" and move into the spare bedroom to carry on an affair.

Does that match up with the phone records? Were there any texts that were deleted between those two texts? Because his text response to her text doesn't seem in context. Sorry about all the 'text'ing.

Zebras are just horses in pyjamas.

My take is a little different on this and I back up this view with the fact that we are almost ALWAYS RIGHT when we tell someone their spouse is having an affair. Rather than being "skewed" or "biased," we are "enlightened." It's about like a master mechanic who listens to and fixes engines every day for a living. I would call him experienced, educated, and enlightened...

Hey Chris, another thing you can do is go put a keylogger on his computer. eblaster is a good one that he can't detect. It will email the reports to an email address. It is at spectorpro.com and is easy to install. It takes under 5 minutes to install.

Yes, I am saying this based on the phone records. What I did was read all the unerased text messages I could on the phone. I forwarded the suspicious ones to my email address, then I went online & compared the info...matched up dates & times. I scoured the records for text & regular calling & since 3/14 there has been no contact between him & her using the cell phone -regualr calls or text.

I'll admit - I am initimidated by that sort of thing. He's the tech guru in the house...So I would be worried about being found out or having the program etc discovered. Here's what I found on the site's FAQs:



I did order the SIM card reader for the cell phone just now but, I gotta be honest and say I am not willing to risk jail and my livlihood for this. My career requires a clearance.

Thoughts?

They write that to save their own butts. I don't see your WH taking you to court if you find proof of an A. Don't let the fact that he may find it discourage you though. I put one on my computer and my WH found it after only 2 hours but there was enough proof for me to KNOW that there was not "just a friendship" going on. Hard to refute, "That's why I want to do other things with you so it's not just about sex."

That's just a legal disclaimer. That's like saying these bongs we sell are for tobacco use only. That's exactly what that software is intended for. If the computer is yours, you should not have any issues. However, if it is your husband's work laptop that the company owns, then yes, it would be illegal to install that program on.

Understood, thank you.

Well, of course they're going to say that! You think they don't know how popular their software is specifically for the purpose of snooping on straying spouses?

You think he'll press charges for invading his secrecy?? Do what you feel comfortable with. I'd be ready to change careers if that was the deciding factor.

I'll try to be objective for a minute, here, and assume that the text exchanges could be totally innocent... Okay, time's up. They AREN'T totally innocent! Exchanging endearments with someone other than your spouse is !

Just throwing this in here really quick. I had an affair in my first marriage and I did everything during the day. I was home almost every day on time. He could conduct an affair during the day through text, calls and perhaps meeting up when he is set to be at work or on his lunchhour.

Yep, do it ANYWAY!!!!

Yes, Spectorpro puts that on there to cover themselves. I understand COMPLETELY about being unsure in doing this, snooping GNAWED at my conscience. I was not good at it and I HATED doing it. HOWEVER, putting the keylogger on my computer was the ONLY way I got the information *I* needed on H'S affair. It tooks MONTHS of prodding by the good folks here and looking back in hindsight, I would have done it MUCH sooner. I would have saved my months of emotional turmiol.......

I am in an agreement with Mr. W, though I did say LAY LOW and CATCH the HO. It is possible that this is more of an inappropriate relationship, but if you don't squash it NOW, you are looking at an even BIGGER problem in the not-so-distant future.

Besides, your H's porn issue needs to be addressed anyway, so EVEN if the first reason to put the spyware on your H's computer is this OW, the porn gives you a SECOND reason.....One reason in good enough. Two is an alarm. Do ya really need a third???

not2fun

Chris, we have not had any WS catch the eblaster keylogger yet so I wouldn't worry about it. We do this everyday and have never had any trouble. The only thing you might do is run his anti-spyware and make sure it doesn't flush it out. I have only seen that happen once, and in that case, she just programmed it to ignore it.

But you can't afford to miss out on this important tool; if something is going on it is probably happening here and this will flush it out quickly.

I remember feeling physically ill right after I installed the keylogger.

Not as ill as I felt when I read the chats and IMs though.

FWIW, Chris, regardless of what stage this friendship/EA/A etc. is in, if this is something your H can't say right in front of you to another person..male OR female...it's inappropriate and doesn't belong in the relationship. That's the bottom line litmus test.

Hi Chris,

It's been a while since I responded to one of your posts.

The disclaimer, as I understand it, is there because you cannot use evidence found by a keylogger in a court of law. It's the same thing as saying listening on the extension phone to another's conversation is unlawful. It's only unlawful when someone tries to use that information in a matter of law.

Of course, my disclaimer is that I'm not a lawyer. But I used a keylogger and a GPS tracker and I'm glad (?) I did. It was the knowing that was important, not how I got the knowledge.

reading everyone's responses and I'd follow them - install keylogger, keep snooping and continue with a great Plan A.

While I understand that it's possible, it truly isn't probable. For example, the job he has now - he gets 30 minutes for lunch. It would take him that long to get out of the building.

I am not trying to be naive here - just realistic. It's very tempting to simply call both of these women & ask them what, if anything, is going on. But, I know that once I do that other things will result.

Not2,

How can I fault my H for viewing porn when I do it myself? No keylogger needed for that - we both know that we both look at porn on the Internet.

Again, neither of us is "addicted" to it. Sex between us is good. Last night it was great...

To be clear, I believe that the relationship with the "friend" is likely inappropriate. They contact each other WAY more than I feel is right. A few months ago I sent her a friend request on FB and she ignored it...yet she is friends with my H. THAT is a red flag IMO. I asked him about it. He claimes he asked her about it & she said whenever she friends women it never ends well because they eventually accuse her of saying something inappropriate to their H or boyfriend. I asked him to think about what that may mean - she may actually be saying inappropriate things if this is a repeated occurance between her and other women.

Maybe I should send her a message along with another friend request: My H says you're interested in buying XYZ from me (which he did say a few months ago)...Let's chat! Thoughts?

At any rate, he deletes the texts from her so I have not very much of seen what is being said. The few he didin't delete seemed very harmless. I also managed to find one email exchange - very harmless. In one recent text which he did not delete she mentions she'd be out of town in case he emails her. This bugged me...I couldn't find more than one email from him to her on his personal email account. If he is emailing her, he must be doing it from work or from an email account I don't know about.

As far as that text with the other person "pretty lady", it was 100% awful. I can't imagine any man would want his wife reading that exchange. With that in mind, I purchased a SIM card reader earlier today. It was just $14.99 & shipping was free. Can't wait til it arrives.

Beyond that, I am not ready to take any further steps...such as monitoring Internet Usage, GPS tracking, etc. Something feels wrong about all of that right now. I already have confirmation of ONE inappropriate exchange. With the SIM card reader I may get more of that and I may get plans for hooking up. I am hoping that the info only reveals inappropriate flirting and no hook up planning. In my mind, the road back from inappropriate flirting and a possible an EA is shorter and less bumpy than the road from a full blown PA. Although if I find things showing an EA/PA from the SIM, why spend the money on a keylogger or Internet tracking? I'll already know - My H s having an EA / PA. If we divorce, in VA marital infidelity is not a consideration in the division of marital property - so again....why spend the money gathering proof beyond what the SIM card can tell me?

I plan to have a talk with him in the near future about going to the next MB Weekend...which I saw is scheduled for May (pls correct me if I am wrong.) I mean, if we're having sex, sleeping in the same bed, and he is "behaving" like he wants to be my husband again I see no reason why I can't say - You mentioned that part of our problem was that we never felt like "trying" at the same time....Since we're both in "trying" mode right now, let's get some assistance.
In attending MB, I can get more info about how to be his best option and he can learn why EA and flirting is not good for a marriage..

Fred, thanks for weighing in. At this time I am going with the SIM card reader.

Chris- I hope that you do not read this thread in 6 months and regret this decision. I hope for you that you won't be one of the people telling newly Dday BS's that they need to snoop.

Although it is true that there may NOT be an A started with OW2(texting gal)there are many many that should not be ignored. At best, your H has extremely weak boundaries in concern with people of the opposite sex.

What are you afraid of learning? What is the worst thing you can think of?

In my own sitch, I wish I had found MB 2 years earlier so I would have been able to have a greater effect earlier in my WH's A. My hope for you is that you take this advantage you have gained by being here and having so many good people giving you great advice. Let's talk again when the SIM card reader arrives. How long will that take?

Chris, I would strongly suggest you go with BOTH the keylogger and the SIM card. It is very common for affairs to take place on the computer. You need to go after this with both guns if you are going to do it. Not monitoring the computer could be a BIG MISS, since that is where we uncover the VAST MAJORITY of affairs. There is nothing "wrong" with snooping whatsoever, so your feelings are leading you wrong. There is something wrong with cheating, nothing wrong with catching someone in the act. If you are going to do it, my suggestion would be to do it RIGHT. A keylogger is probably the best tool at your disposal.

It was for me, for sure. I had confirmation within 24 hours of installing the keylogger. I saw a huge red flag when you mentioned tht he is on the computer a lot at night.

Is hubby still refusing to sleep in the same bed?

No + We're having great sex.

Oh good, because that was a big red flag to me. Let's hope that the inappropriate behavior stops. Hang in there and keep checking.

Scot, the reader should be here in 3-4 days. I will keep everyone posted about what is found. In the meantime, I am reading his texts manually while he showers and checking his phone activity online. They update the info frequently.

I understand about the red flag of being on the computer late at night. He's in an MBA program and his computer usage could be explained by that. I was in the exact same situation 24 months ago when I was in that program. Also, I use the compuetr late at night. Heck - I'm doing it now & he went up to bed a few minutes ago. Not trying to make excuses, but it is what it is.

I'll know more once I start using the SIM Card reader.



Mel, I am aware of what you're saying about affais & computers and I thank you for your advice. My H leaves his computer on and leaves himself logged in. I have the password to his log in, his email, his FB page too. Now...he could have an email account which I don't know about, and in that case a keylogger would be very enlightening. I have an email address he doesn't know about - the one I registered with here. He could be emailing an OW from work too - in which case I'll never know.

Mark is advising me about this on the MB 101 side too. He & Mr Wondering are saying that they really don't see enough evidence (a pattern) to indicate an affair. I agree with that and I don't have that "gut feeling" an affair is happening. Again, for now - I am starting with the SIM Card reader and going from there. My thinking is I don't need to separate hundreds from my wallet to confirm an affair if I can get what I need from the SIM whih was less than $16. I'll need that money for MB Coaching & the upcoming MB Weekend.

I sincerely believe that there is no affair and that at most, he is getting ENs most likely Admiration and Conversation met by the "friend" in AZ or possibly with the co-worker. I can fight this by being "the best option"...meeting ENs and avoiding LBs, get him to agree to MArriage Coaching & the MB Weekend so he can learn more about boundaries etc. In the discussion on the MB 101 side, one of the men pointed out that when the marriage & family situation becomes more attractive, men generally will not continue to see the OW as a viable choice. OS, I definitley need to shore up my Plan A activity while being on the lookout for any EA/PA. actvity..

Good luck!

ChrisInNOVA, when I found out about my FWW's A, that was one of the first things that went through my mind - when did she find the time? Like you, I thought I could account for all the time that were were not together. If someone cheating, they will make the time to get their "fix".

Chris i too think there are many in this situation.

My h does not even know how to use a computer or how to text someone, he carried on his A during the day using his work cell phone that i could not track.

And they did not have much contact at first, the real contact began after the PA started because the EA had already developed at work. They got to see each other every morning and talk on the phone a lot during the day and as far as work knew since they were co-workers located in different parts of the city it was "no big deal" that they were calling each other as they would need to talk during the day for work related stuff, only it wasn't work related. And she was good about leaving her jobsite and going to his jobsite on a daily basis.

And my h was also the perfect h at home too and we were having great sex all the time as well. And he told me he loved me every day, as a matter of fact he acted exactly the same as he always had, until the PA started and then i instantly "knew".

I am telling you this because I do not want you to react "emotionally" but i do not want you to "bury your head in the sand" either.

Chris- I think you are fooling yourself into thinking that you don't have that "gut feeling". Really, think about that. You posted on a forum that discusses A about some texts that you found. You do have the gut feeling, you are just trying to talk yourself out of it.

As far as if your (W)H is sleeping in the same bed as you. My WH slept in the same bed as me right until I asked him to leave as I was going to Plan B. We would have continued to have SF if I had pursued it. My WH had his A for, I believe, at least 1 year before I KNEW. There were sporadic cell calls that I discovered last March and were explained away(gaslighting). We had GREAT SF throughout that time period.

If you can wait the 4 days, I don't think that is going to effect you too badly(unless it goes PA in those few days). Just focus on your Plan A and SNOOP. Let us know what you are planning on doing so we can advise you.

I'm surprised to hear that Mr. W and Mark don't see any signs of an A.

Your call, Chris. But I'm going to say this again: there is NEVER an acceptable reason for a married man to use terms of endearment to someone other than his wife. If my H said 'pretty lady' to someone, even in front of me, you can bet I'd be on that like white on rice. That is totally inappropriate. At best, it is a slippery slope and shows a lack of boundaries. It also underscores a lack of protection for your M. I'd be especially concerned in light of her rebuff of your FB friend request. She has NO female friends on FB because they've accused her of saying inappropriate things to their H's??

It's curious that you say you don't have a gut feeling, yet you're posting on here and ordering a SIMS card. I'll assume that you just want to confirm your lack of 'gut feeling'. But when I don't have a gut feeling I don't order tracking devices. And I don't set up a second email account to go online to any sites. I'm O&H and my H is, too.

I hope you're right, and that your H is just exhibiting poor boundaries (that needs to go to the top of your 'must address and correct' list.)

Seriously Scot, I am not fooling myself at all. There is a problem. Even if he isn't having or hasn't had an affair, there is an issue with appropriate boundaries - mimimum.

I am not sure if our marriage can be saved if I discover he's having or has had an affair because knowing him - he would be so angry that I snooped he would try to make it all about that rather than what he has done. Although that's a common and expected reaction for WHs and WWs and we here @ MB have a "plan of action" for that, I am not sure I could take that insult along with the original injuries and keep going with this marriage. (This reasoning still applies if there is nothing found and I feel like I have to confront him about the text message I found.

I posted about this here because this is the room for affairs and suspected affairs. I also posted it on the MB101 side.


I understand.



That's the plan.

They're very knowledgeable / experienced.



Here you are referring to "pretty lady" who seems to be an aquaintance from his Part Time job. I agree with what you are saying and even if I find nothing, the issue of appropriate boundaries and protecting our marriage still has to be addressed.


You are referring to his long time friend and ex-subordinate from military service, Ms. Arizona here. She has exactly 13 FB friends. Some are female and some are not. When he asked her why she would not friend me on FB, he said her reply was what I shared with everyone earlier.

That is most certainly a big red flag and I told him that there's probably something to the situation between her and the women since, by her own admission, it happens repeatedly. The thing is, I have not yet found any inappropriate communications between him and her on FB or anywhere else. I'll know much more when I get that SIM card reader and I check his work phone.


I am ordering a SIMS card precisely because I don't have a gut feeling, and I don't trust my own feelings right now - I have been on an emotional roller coaster for the past few weeks. I am also ordering the SIMS Card reader because of what I have learned here at Marriage Builders: Some people have been fooled until they found "something." I want to be sure I am not being fooled. This seems to be the best way for now. If I find something, I am prepared to do a Plan B including exposure when appropriate. If I find nothing, I am hoping that getting us into MB Coaching or the MB Weekend will get the boundaries issues addressed without me saying I snooped and found that darned text message.

I set up a separate email originally because I felt we were going to get a divorce and I started doing research online about the divorce process. I also needed a place to keep my list of plans & logisitics to help me prepare for a Divorce. At that point, it would have been foolish to have all the info in an email address he could access. After I found MB, I used that email address to regster on this site for reasons which I hope are obvious.

I appreciate your comments and observations. Thank you for being willing to share what you think with me. Please keep doing it.

Chris

I will say that practically ever BS here on MB has thought what you thought


However i know that for me anyway, i said from the day we started dating that if he ever cheated on me that would be it, i would be gone no matter what. But guess what that didn't happen, i am still there trying to work on my marriage three years later.

And i can not tell you the number of BS that have been here and been scared to death to "snoop" or "expose" and guess what a lot of them are in happy marriages now so never say never.

I really am cautioning you because of me for sure, you have read my posts about the "friendliness" even after an affair, so there is never such a thing as "just flirting seeking admiration" crap....... Please just keep checking....

I received 25 roses on our 25th wedding anniversary with a card that said, "Here's hoping to another 25 years with you!" A few days later I found out about his affair. See, the thing about wayturds is that they lie... consistently and sometimes undetected.

Not knocking them in any way but i agree with maritalbliss. I know they are knowledgeable and experienced however (sorry about this) they were dealing with WWs not a WH. I think lousygolfer would be able to tell you about his A and you could see things from a WHs POV.

I'll chime in. About 8 months of some of the very best SF of our marriage...all while he was engaged in a full on EA via computer, IM, etc. with an old girlfriend.

Chris,

Whether you *think* there is an A or not is irrelevant. Any inappropriate behavior warrants snooping.

Installing a keylogger would be prudent as you can see by reading here that A's are basically lurking around every corner. Maybe you caught this when it is in very early stages. Maybe it wouldn't go any further. Who knows?

What I do know is that by even if you do snoop and find nothing, that HELPS you...it doesn't hurt you. Because once those suspicions have been aroused, they don't just go away. They linger and fester...and that will affect they way you feel/interact with your H.

Snooping is a win-win IMO.

Good luck!

Agree that further investigation is the proper course of action.

There are many signs of an affair.

Any one of them does not show a pattern that indicates one though if there is an affair other signs will manifest themselves quickly if you look for them.

The interaction is NOT appropriate action for a married man.

It does NOT show Protection.
It does not show Care.

Yet...

Never attribute to malice that is adequately explained by stupidity (or ignorance).

A PATTERN of bad choices and actions makes me worry. A single event without any pattern in light of other stuff that is positive does not indicate to me that an affair is ongoing.

Red flag?

Absolutely...

Enough to begin exposure and jeopardize jobs?

Not so sure just yet.

Snooping is the solution to lack of evidence.

Investigation...

It bears investigating.

By itself it is so far proof of stupidity.

Other crazy stuff follows if it is an affair.

Plan A:

Meet ENs
Avoid Love Busters.

Become number 1 choice.
Become the best possible answer.

Look to see if other red flags are waving, but KNOW what you are fighting before entering into a war.

JMO.

Mark

I agree that right now Chris should only be snooping, however it is far more than stupity IMO for her h to talk to another woman that way. I would think it would be quite obvious that you should not call someone other than your wife "pretty lady" no matter how stupid you are.....

And we are telling her that this could be the beginning of an EA and for me none of the crazy stuff started happening until it became a PA so we are trying to make sure Chris knows to keep snooping no matter what....

Me too....and for the record, I've already stated that I agree with Mr. W's assessment.

That being said, Chris, a couple of years before H's affair, he left his email open, BY ACCIDENT. I took a gander through it. I found a couple of emails that were "inappropriate" from a female worker. No "pretty lady" comments, but them telling each other a few issue's in the other's marriage. I also found where he had opened an online account to a sex-site. The kind where you try to find a hook-up.

I confronted him. He was remorseful, apologized on end, and stopped the activitity. I was somewhat placaded for the moment. Mostly because I wasn't sure what to do. Didn't even occure to me about asking for his password......

Anyway, that behavior was my really a warning sign of what was to come....

I SHOULD have paid more attention back then......

So yes, KEEP SNOOPING....but lady, I gotta tell ya. The sim card reader is not enough. You HAVE to put Spectorpro on that computer. Mel was right when she said this is the most sure-fire way to find something IF there is something to find.....

As far as feeling guilty.....FIGHT that feeling. Take it from me....I was a guilt-ridden snooper for months who hated the whole danged thing. BUT, after I found what I needed, I didn't feel ONE OUNCE of guilt. And only regretted not doing it sooner....



ABSOLUTELY!!!! You can't fight what you don't know....

not2fun

Woah.

What Mark has said is my thinking on this:

I don't need to trust my gut here...I need evidence which confirms whether there is an affair. No doubt about it - what he did is inappropriate for a married man:

"Miss you baby"
"What's up with you pretty lady" etc?
Right.


The ongoing friendship with Ms. Arizona?
Check.


This is my plan right here--->

SuzieQ, you are right and I will definitely keep snooping.

SC, thanks - I fully intend to be in snoop mode.

Not2 and everyone who recommended the computer monitoring - I am considering it. For me the issue is installing it and setting things up so he does not detect it - I don't feel savvy / knowledgeable enough. The other issue is if I get enough evidence from the SIM Card Reader, what would be the point?

Chris, I had a battle with my ethics too, when it came time to snoop on my stbxw. I felt it was so wrong. And it went against all of my beliefs.

The people here convinced me that I needed to "get over" my reluctance and learn the truth. It was easier for me, of course, because my stbxw had already confessed the affair. She just hadn't told me who, when, where, why or the other things.

My attorney also urged me. Not officially, of course. But that if I was going to look for evidence, I had better get really SOLID evidence.

So I did.

I didn't buy eBlaster/Spectorpro. I bought WebWatcher. She never caught on. I bought a GPS and tracked her moves. By this time, it was too late to monitor her phone, but I did the next best thing beforehand: I photographed the text messages between the two of them.

Even my attorney said I had enough that if I wanted to, I could sue on the grounds of adultery.

Since you and I both live in the Commonwealth of Virginia, you know that the courts would rather hear "no-fault" cases than anything else. Since my stbxw has nothing, there is no gain for me (no kids) to take that route.

But I know what I know, and I know what I've done both to uncover and expose the affair and try to restore my marriage, and how I've implemented Plan B and have worked very hard to get on with my life.

And I also know with every fiber of my being that she is currently riding on a locomotive that has its destiny in a collision with the Karma Bus.

As the therapist I sought for my emotional healing told me, "In cases like this, it's best just to step out of the way and watch the wreck."

Do it. When you look back some day -- no matter how it turns out -- you will be glad that you did. The knowing (whatever it is you learn) is far better to take than the not knowing!

Tried to get on his work phone (Samsung Jack)... it was password protected and I could not guess the password. So, I asked him if I could use it to view my hobby site on the Internet Browser from the cell phone perspective.

He unlocked the phone and handed it right to me without hesitating. The phone seems very complicated; however, I was able to look through all emails received (couldn't find "sent items" and the text & IM are inactive)...The emails date back to December 2009. I found nothing but work related stuff and a few jokes from a male friend which My H forwarded to me on previous occasions. I checked the Contacts and found Ms. Arizona's work email & work phone number...no other women and definitely not "pretty lady." There were no emails from Ms. Arizona either. BTW - the work cell phone shows what is in his email account at work too.

The SIM Card Reader has been shipped and is ariving via Fed Ex. It shouldn't be too much longer until I receive it.

Chris- I also recommend snooping. It didn't feel right to me but as someone pointed out, there is a vast difference between privacy and secrecy. I went with the E-Blaster from specterpro. Very easy to install and very hard to detect.

The instructions are pretty fool-proof and only takes about 5-10 minutes. It really is invisible.

I must add a disclaimer though. My WW did detect mine. I slipped up and mentioned to OMW that I had it. She in turn told OM who told WW. She downloaded a program specifically to find it and she did. Had I not mentioned it, it would still be on today.

I had it on for about 6 days and unfortunately, it was more than enough time to confirm my suspicions.

The peace of mind is worth it. Snoop.

By the way, I am very sorry you are here but know that you are not alone.

Is there the possibility of ANOTHER phone? This certainly looks like a duck.

The email that I read from my FWH to OW used the term "lovely lady" in it. He hadn't talked to me like that since we were dating and I KNEW something was up.

Keylogger should be installed. It's not real hard. Spectorpro is real good and it walks you through the installation. Don't know much about the other ones. How about a gps tracker?

FYI Chris you may be in my neck of the woods. I'm on the Peninsula.

Hi M,

No possibility of another phone. All money movement is 100% transparent.

At this point, I am eagerly awaiting the SIM Card Reader. The contact with Ms. Arizona and "Pretty lady" seem to be limitted to the personal cell phone.

Still considering the Computer monitoring.

Weeelll, not if (hypothetical) OW gave him one . . .

Warning! You have just been a victim of the Pink Internet Superhighway of Extreme Interconnectivity and Deeper Meaning!

Yes...He could have a cell phone that SHE gave him. I could have a cell phone from my secret lover too.

I mean - where does it end? Really...

I have already decided to snoop, but I will not let it "consume" me or become the central focus. My central focus is taking care of myself and doing the Plan A for now.

Be careful, Chris: what I'm hearing from you is:

* if I snooped any more, that would mean letting it "consume" me
* letting it "consume" me is a character trait I do not like

Now, consider that you are talking to many respectable people who have snooped a great deal more than you. Do you believe those people were "consumed"? Do they seem possessed of an undesirable character trait?

I am sorry you are hearing that and I have no ill will or judgements towards anyone who has snooped. Although instinctiveley we may feel that snooping is wrong & a violation of privacy, the truth is that snooping has saved marriages becasue it led to the necessary steps which spouses took to get to Recovery.

Here's what I am saying:

I am snooping and concurrently moving forward with Plan A.

My SIM Card Reader will arive shortly. From there, I'll need to decide if & how I will go further with the snooping activities.

No apology to me is necessary. I'm just asking you to consider if you aren't seeing all these respectable, helpful folks (not me) as maybe just a little lower because some of them may have been "consumed" by snooping at some point.

Just suggesting that you consider your perspective, is all. For your sake.

I agree with Chris on this one.

I think most of us agree that snooping is necessary and prudent to protect the marriage against affairs, and most do not have too much of an ethical dilema doing it.

That being said, it is very easy for the snooping to become all-consuming to an unhealthy degree. I know, I've been there. I suspect many of us have.

Chris is free to snoop to the degree she feels comfortable with right now without this board judging her too harshly for not going far enough.

Snooping ~~~~> Also known as data collection

I musta missed that one. I haven't seen anyone judging HER too harshly.

I was never consumed with snooping.......

I was CONSUMED with finding out the TRUTH.......

It's a natural reaction when one has been gaslighted.....

Not2fun

Chris, Plan A is like a WAR .... YOU vs adultery.
NOT you vs wayward.


From another thread ... ***** The Art of War ******

Seems to me there's no reason to look under just SOME of the rocks. But, of course, to each his own.

Hi everyone,

Yes, I feel that folks here are saying I am not being aggressive enough about my snooping and I need to go all the way and get a keylogger, but I wasn't ready for that. I wanted to try the SIM Card Reader first.

Well, with all of the crushing pressure to install the keylogger ( ), I reached a mental critial mass & I came out and asked my H about that "pretty lady" text. At first I lied and said I saw the texts online, but then I admitted that I saw them on his phone. His explanation was that "pretty lady" is the girlfriend of a friend he works with at the part time job and it was just a harmless type of thing. (He really needs to be educated about this type of behavior!)

According to him I have all passwords on everything he owns - emails, web site memberships, etc. and his personal cell phone has no lock out on it. He said he wanted me to understand that he is not hiding anything from me. He said he is not happy about what I did but it wasn't unforgiveable and truthfully I have had much more to forgive him for throughout our marriage. This thought is gnawing at me: The one thing he did not say is that he's sorry about that text. To that end, I intend to continue talking about this topic with him again later tonight. He should not be texting anyone "pretty lady" and no woman should be calling him "baby"..He did not address the inappropriateness of that. The focus appeared to be me admitting that I snooped...granted - that is the angle I took under the umbrella of being open and honest. I apologized for the snooping but he did not address the inappropriateness of that text.

I also told him very frankly that I am threatened by his friendship with Ms. Arizona. And, we talked more about that as well. I stated that I wasn't asking him to do anything, I was just being O & H about my feelings. We talked about how affairs get started...how we allow a person of the opposite sex to meet our emotional needs and then it turns physical.

I still do not have any feeling that an EA / PA is going on. And, if something is going on - he is a damned good actor / liar and can do an affair across time zones... with irregualr contact. Either way - if he is having an affair he probably will not be using his personal cell phone to arrange for any bootycallmeetups since he knows the phone numbers can be viewed in the online detail and he knows I know how to view them. He told me that he knew I had looked through his cell phone days ago because I had opened messages which he did not view. He said that if I never admitted this to him, it would have been a problem. I told him that I searched through his phone because I felt insecure & threatened. He said he understood how his threat that he wanted a divorce would cause me to feel that way and act that way.

We had to end the convo because we're both @ work.

Looks like the keylogger may be the way to go if I still want to snoop at this point since, in my stupidity, I tipped my hand re/ the cell phone. I am almost afraid to even do the keylogger because I wasn't even savvy enough to do an undetected manual cell phone snoop.

But you know what - this could all be part of his trecherous plan to deceive me right? Jeez, I'm so confused.

Using that logic, I need to do the GPS tracking too...or hire a PI.

Why?

I'm interested in your response as well.

Why did I aplogize? On some level I still feel like the snooping was wrong. Sorry everyone. I know that the philosophy here is that it isn't wrong; however, I have not turned my feelings around on that one yet.

Thinking about it more, I also apologized for the lying.

Any other thoughts?

When the two of you married, you became ONE. There shouldn't be anything one hand is doing that the other hand doesn't know about. That should be your life. You should be able to look at anything of your H's and vice versa. The idea of two people running separate, parallel, lives while claiming to be "soul mates" and to be "partners" at the same time, as so many marrieds do, totally baffles me. The two separate styles don't square.

Example: On Sat., I was sitting in H's/our car, waiting for H to finish using the restroom at a restaurant. I started looking in his glove compartment for a paper clip. He walked out just then, and very good-naturedly said "Hey, are you snooping through my car stuff?" My response: "Of course not. I'm looking for a paper clip. I already know every item that you have in your car." Sweet smile. And he gets it.

There is that thought and also the thought about "trust" that some people (including me) seem to struggle with when it comes to this concept of "two becoming one"...Two can become one, but "one" does not have to routinely do a semen analysis on the other one's undies.

I mean - how would I react to a search of my purse or wallet? Probably not positively but I don't think I would be hopping mad either - and I am not hiding anything from my H.




The thing is - why didn't he get mad when I admitted I searched through his phone? Weren't we saying before that anger is the big hint that an affair is taking place?

He was as cool as a cucumber - "I know you snooped. Am I happy about it? No - but I can see why you did it."

Talked again about the content of the text.

He is still not bringing forth any admission that "Miss you baby" and "pretty lady" was inappropriate. He said that he understood how it could look "off" or "odd" though but that's all he'll "give me" on the issue.

I asked him what he planned to do if she sent him another text like that. He said, knowing how I reacted he would choose different wording for his response. Said she likes to mess around with people this way. And - He began to express aggitation. Said that I should not try to fool him like this again. Said that if I lied again this way, he would not be so understanding.

I did not like that he wouldn't admit to any wrongdoing in this situation. The focus of his atttention is that I lied to him.

Red flag?

Ladies & gents - If I am going to snoop, it better be SUPER stealthy. I CAN'T GET CAUGHT.

I brought this up to him in the continuation of the convo and that's when he got aggitated:

I reminded him of this-->

My H NEVER tells me I am pretty or calls me "Pretty Lady." In the past, when I asked him why, he said he "just isn't that type of person."

And then I said --> Yet you texted her "pretty lady."

What do I make of that? Defensiveness?

Have you told your H about the incident in the bookstore?

He could very well be gaslighting you.

What are you afraid that your H would do if he caught you snooping again? What would the ramifications be? You said that he has been doing the MB stuff right? He should then know that snooping is PART AND PARCEL in a M.

But feelings are not truth. There is nothing wrong with snooping. You have a right and a responsibility to know each and every thing your H does.

What did you lie about?

Now, if he is having an affair, he will be tipped off and will go further underground. This is why we told you to NOT say anything until you were sure. If he is having an affair, he would not admit it to you. He would make up ridiculous excuses like this:


There is nothing "harmless" or innocent about saying
Confronting him without evidence is a lovebuster and it only serves to drive him further underground if there is an affair. And I certainly have not ruled out an affair. All the flags indicate there is an affair or the beginning of one.

Answer the question, please.....

In a word: HELL NO.


ETA:

And there is nothing anyone can say to make me either.

As far as I'm concerned IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Melody,

On it's face, what you are saying seems right; however, HE KNEW I had been in the cell phone already..before I admitted it. Seriously - when I admitted it he was completely UNsurprised. That changes the truth of your observation as it applies to my situation. To be blunt: I suck at "snoop"...It was a rookie mistake to open the Inbox with new messages in it. That's how he knew I had been looking. That in itself was THE Love Buster. If he knew and I never came clean, what then? In some ways it's better this way isn't it?

Note: He is not informed about MB and has no knowledge about "snooping" or what MB says about "privacy" in marriage. Most people would view the snooping and the marital privacy just as he does if they haven't been educated like we have.

Just now, we had a "confrontation" on this...but I am happy to report that it was much different than others we've had in the past and recently...which were very one sided - him basically loud talking me and mentally / emotionally strong arming me into backing down from my POV.

This time I said my side of things without being afraid of his angry reaction. And here it is:


I was prepared for him to threaten to divorce me again and I didn't care. I was SO ready to say this (practiced it)


But guess what? I didn't have to say that.

He looked at me in a surprised way, then he said that I should have just asked him what was up. And I said I should have asked directly but I was afraid of his reaction at me looking into the messages. He reminded me that we spoke before about being O & H. I said yes - I have been doing that; however, this was a chanllenging one for me. I am going to make mistakes just like you." He then started in with the "You shouldn't have been looking in my phone...stay outta my phone" crap. He also tried to accuse me of lying about why I finally decided to find out about the text message exchange. (I told him I was pushed to do it because of a discussion I had today with a "friend." (Well - it was the discussion here amongst my MB friends which compelled me to ask. I just couldn't stand it any more.) I let him know that the compulsion to ask due to a discussion today was very real. After all, I have known about the exchange for a few days and I said nothing.

I also said


Then we were looking at each other for a few weird and silent seconds. I said "This is me being honest." and he said "This is the new you." (Referring to my progress with Individual Counseling.)

I asked him how long he thought he would be mad and he said "For as long as I need to be." I smiled & asked him if he would let me know when he was no longer mad. He said maybe maybe not & then he asked me to leave the room.

Now he's playing with our son.

Yes, he could..

WOW. I need to write apology letters to ALL of my friends. This is what I sounded like 2 years ago when my WH gaslighted me and then took it underground. I can see myself in everything you are writing right now. I am going to have to post my whole story on my thread from the 2 years BEFORE I found MB.

Chris, you are very strong in your convictions and you are very protective and defensive of your posts and your H. That shows great strength.

I find you very interesting and I am sure I am going to learn a lot from watching your sitch. Thanx.

And he still didn't have to explain the text message....

All you talked about was "you" and what you did/didn't do wrong...

From my earlier POV, I would be afraid of his angry reaction. Now - not so much if something more is found. If there is nothing going on, the discovery of my snooping another time would be a MAJOR LB because he is not vested in MB...knows nothing about it other than what I am showing him by cleaning up my side of the street.



I am thinking computer snooping but I am going to have to be EXTREMELY careful about it.

And you are tiptoeing around until he's done being "mad"....

He uses his "anger" to control you. And make you live in fear.
Its a very abusive strategy...

Yep.

He totally blocked me on that, and he would not admit it was inappropriate!

All I got was what ws shared earlier: She is a friend's girlfriend and it wasn't anything serious.

Sounds like BS.

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought that you were BOTH doing MB. I must have gotten my wires crossed. Happens sometimes.

I only meant what were you afraid he was going to do when he found out you were snooping. Would he threaten you with D? That kind of thing.

He was physically abusive in the past. Now that is not an issue; however, I agree with what you have said here.

Nope.

As he said - This is the new me: I will no longer be afraid of his anger. I am behaving as if his anger is not there.

I released all the negative feelings and energy I had in that conversation.

Nope - I said several times during that conversation that the text message exchange was inappropriate.

Tis OK.


Not afraid of that anymore

Okay, so where do you go from here? What is your PLAN? Where can we help you?

Not sure.

The SIM Card reader will be here shortly.

I am thinking if he is doing some dirt, he'll place a lock on the phone and then he'll get comfortable and careless about his exchanges. In the meantime I continue Plan A

The SIM Card reader will pick up all texts lock or no lock. If nothing is found, I start the computer monitoring. If something is found. Then it's FULL exposure and Plan B?


Thoughts?












BTW - Am I the only person who got caught snooping? Surely we @ MB have a back up plan for this!

I don't understand what any of this means. How does any of this change the truth of my observations? If anything it supports my point because if he knew you had looked then he had time to concoct this ridiculous story and be "unsurprised." The truth is that your H is likely having an affair and has given you a very implausible explanation of what those messages. But, we have told you that before and you dismissed what we said so I don't expect you to listen now.

The only problem is that now you have tipped him off so he can just go further underground.


One does not have to be familiar with Marriage Builders to have simple, common logic. That is logic 101, not Marriage Builders 101. A married couple should never have secrets from another. No one has the right to secrecy in a marriage. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

Well.. er I am glad to be entertaining...but I am not trying to be.

I am not sure where I am being "defensive" of the wrong things he is doing. To be frank: I feel he is BSing about the reasons for being willing to text "pretty lady" after telling me that he is not the type of person to flatter in that way. I have revealed that he was abusive and agreed that he uses anger to control me.

I have been caught snooping MANY MANY times. Most were before MB. I even got caught with the keylogger. It wasn't that pretty on my part. I overreacted to VAR evidence too and TRIED to lock WH out of the room. I grew and learned. Even those reactions were tame compared to the SD, DJ and AO's I could pull out before MB. GROWING IS A GREAT GIG.

huh? How can you get "caught" doing something that is NOT WRONG? The only people who would object to being snooped on are people who have something to HIDE. Spouses who have nothing to hide, do not hide.

There is nothing wrong with snooping, Chris. Are the police being BAD when they spy on drug dealers? Of course not. They have an obligation to protect society.

It is the same wtih marriage. A spouse has an OBLIGATION to snoop and make sure nothing is being behind his back since everything a spouse does effects his spouse. You have right to know everything your spouse does. You share a life, so if something is being withheld from you, AS IT WAS, you have an obligation to find out what it is. That is a VIRTUE, not a matter of shame.

Your husband's reaction is very typical of a wayward who has something to hide. This is from Dr Harley in "Coping with Infidelity: Part 2":


"Almost everyone denies an affair at first, even when confronted with overpowering evidence. When a woman I counseled broke in on her husband having sex with a neighbor, he tried to convince her that she was having an hallucination.

While seeing your spouse in bed with a lover is sure-fire evidence of an affair, that kind of evidence is usually close to impossible to find. But there are many other less intrusive ways to detect ongoing affairs.

For an unfaithful spouse to engage in an affair without detection, two separate lives must be created, one for the lover and one for the spouse. A certain amount of dishonesty is required in both of them, but the major deception is with the spouse.

So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?"
continued here

I am not saying you are entertaining. I am just interested in people and I think I can learn a lot from watching you. Sorry if I offended you. Not meant in that way at all.

As far as the defending part, I reserve the right to respond at a future date.

Melody,

I appreciate what you are saying to me and I understand that you are very knowledgeable & have seen these types of situations a million times. In light of the gross error I have made, where do I go from here?

I would like to say - at least I KNOW that I tipped him off. If I hadn't verbally confirmed it I may have stopped @ the SIM Card Reader because I assumed he was unaware of me snooping on the cell phone. With my thinking (which was at odds with what you recommended, I would have been satisfied if nothing further came up on the cell phone.

At this point he thinks I have no interest in snooping because just now he finally admitted the text exchange was inappropriate. He offered to show me "everything" and I told him I have no interest in looking through his things at this point. I can play the trusting idiot if that's what it takes...

So, please tell me - what's next Mel?

OK - I get it...snooping is not wrong.

I apologize for using the word "caught". Perhaps a better word would be "discovered"....

But you're divorced right?

I mean - that isn't a case for it being ok to get caught snooping by a spouse who is not educated on MB or who is aware of the difference between "private" and "secret."

Now you got it! I agree its a good idea to go along with him for now and just look a little harder. Good plan!

YES it did....and at the VERY LEAST, you need to tell the good folks helping you out on this thread. Many people don't go to all the different forums on here.....

You CANNOT expect your H to be honest with YOU when you aren't doing the same thing.....

Also, your actions show you are as MUCH of a threat to this marriage as he is......

You were LUCKY it didn't go anywhere....this time....

FESS UP, Chris....self-exposure is the BEST exposure....

not2fun

Chris, snooping is not a cause for divorce because only those who have something to hide get upset about snooping. An honest spouse doesn't care. Like I said earlier, it has nothing to do with being "educated in MB," but everything to do with honesty. It is just simple logic.

And no, she is not divorced. She is in PLAN B.

If a spouse divorces over snooping, that means they were a WAYWARD and simply didn't want to get caught doing harm behind their spouse's back. A sincere, recovering spouse does not care. Which means the divorce happened bacause they didn't want to get caught in the act of wrongdoing, not because of snooping.

Its real simple, people who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

Not2,

I confessed - I let the folks on the MB101 side know. They set me straigt immediately. But as I live and breathe I am not saying a dmaned thing to my H about it. It was a stupid meaningless lashing out type of thing.

Melody,

So in addition to playing the trusting idiot do I call "pretty lady" and have a talk with her as he invited me to do? Do I contact Ms Arizona directly?

Who do you think he's likely having the affair with - Ms Arizona or "pretty lady"?

Please tell me what else you're thinking.

I think you should say nothing and do nothing but snoop like a blood hound. Find out FOR SURE what is going on and then make a decision about your next step.

Mel,

He stated that he would "never" snoop me. I retorted that I wouldn't object if he did. He talked about resepct and trust....just like this description:

We call that gaslighting, my friend.

Wow. I can't believe no one else commented on this. Talk about a control freak....HE get busted texting junk to OW and YOU have to leave the room because HE is mad. Wow.

Got it.

As far as the cell phone...he invited me to keep looking at it. So, maybe he plans to erase incriinating things. He may erase the messages on the phone but he can't erase the billing info and the SIM Card retains info until it;s overwritten.

Part of "saying and doing nothing but snoop" means using the SIM Card Reader at this point and installing computer monitoring yes?

Yep - one of the agreements we had was that when he felt an AO coming on he should let me know to leave the room.

I hate that, but it is what it is.

It is controlling and it ensures that he never has to complete an oncomfortable / difficult conversation.

Should I be getting a divorce Mel?

Yet he badgered and bullied you into feeling guilty about doing it. If he was sincere about wanting you to look that wouldn't have happened. Even so, it wouldn't surprise me if he has another secret cell phone if he is having an affair. I would try and search his car.


Agree. And I would follow him when he is out without you "with the boys."

You are far away from making that decision, IMO!

Okey doke


Ok - but know that it's not a frequent thing...maybe once every two months.

Melody,

So in addition to playing the trusting idiot do I call "pretty lady" and have a talk with her as he invited me to do? Do I contact Ms Arizona directly?

Who do you think he's likely having the affair with - Ms Arizona or "pretty lady"?

Please tell me what else you're thinking.

Yes you may have let them know BUT why are you NOT BEING honest on here?

See, Mel is giving you GREAT stuff on marriage and HONESTY....something you are NOT doing here at the MOMENT.

YOU are as much of a threat to your M as your H is.....and the advice you get on here MAY differ if they knew....and then again, maybe not...

I don't know, that is why I want you to find out. He is hiding something and we just need to find out what. And NO, I would not call any of those ladies. If he is having an affair, she will just lie anyway so you will get nothing.

FOR SURE. She will lie. She will also tip off WH that you called and are on to him. You don't want that either.

I am glad that MelodyLane cleared up the misunderstanding that I am D. Although that may be where this M ends, it will NOT be the end of ME. It also won't be because I snooped. It will be because my WH had an A and couldn't get his head out of his a$$.

Plan A, avoid LB.

It is not FAIR to the good people on here to be giving you advice with the FULL knowledge of what is going on......

What they choose to advice you to do after this, is up to them......

not2fun

FWIW, I gave my advice AFTER I already read this. I RARELY go off of the SAA forums. I knew there was something and I had an idea about what it was. It now explains A LOT. Chris, you got 2x4 for it for sure, but I too believe that MelodyLane should have been told. Your reluctance to be O&H with us on THIS forum tells tales. Your unwillingness to share these details yourself and instead having to be outed by Not also says things about you. What you choose to do now is up to you. My hope is that this helps you grow and learn and that it helps at least one other person lurking.

If it's his issue (the AO that's 'coming on') why do YOU have to leave the room? Why doesn't HE leave the room? Just the physical act of you having to accommodate his AO is wrong.

Thanks, not. I was wondering what the bookstore incident was.

Chris, why is it convenient for you to want O&H from your H if you're not practicing it yourself?

Not2

I wasn't hiding it from anyone here. It's not like the people here can't see what's on MB101...

Anyway - here goes: The other day I delibrately took off mywedding ring and went into a local Bookstore/Coffee Shoppe to see what would happen. I ended up having a 45 minute conversation with an attractive man who let me know he was divorced. I did not react to the information, I did not exchange contact info with the man. I left the Shoppe and went to IC where I confessed about doing this with my Counselor. I also discussed the incident over @ MB101 - where I felt it was a more appropriate venue to work out why I would do such a thing. I also chose MB101 to discuss this because I doubt whether this would affect the advice I am receiving here.

This is why we ask you to post to one thread. I don't spend much time over on MB101. I tried to read all of your threads to get caught up on your sitch, but they were so scattered that I gave up. This is the first time I've read about the bookstore incident.

This incident is critical for us. It speaks to YOUR actions and mindset. What you did was the act of a wayward. If we know that you have wayward tendencies it will affect our responses to your sitch. Choosing not to share that with us could invalidate some of our responses or send you down the wrong path. It's just not helpful to anyone.

Hold on everyone - Are you seriously saying that I deliberately hid the bookstore incident from the people here?

I didn't.

I had no idea that people in this forum don't leave and visit the others. For example, Melody Lane seems to visit this one, the Military forum, and the MB 101 forum. I do too. I was NOT "hiding" it from the SAA forum. There is a link in my signature which goes right to my story over there. I thought that the better place for that incident was the MB101 forum because the behavior seemed to be related to what's going on over there. It seemed that my Taker may have gotten the better of me, so I posted about it over there for help. No one here talks about that stuff.

Outted? How can I be outted on something I was not hiding?

I have been 100% honest on these forums and each thread I post when describing my views, my marriage, and what I am thinking + the questions I have. I have held nothing back. This is very upsetting to me.

Melody, did you NOT see the bookstore incident although you visit all the rooms?

Are you going to stop advising me? Will my posts here (or there) be ignored from this point forward?

I understand and I apologize for making an incorrect assumption.

But I want you to know that my mindset is not that of a wayward spouse. That incident is SO uncharacteristic for me. I have never done anything like that EVER to anyone I was with. I believe in fidelity not infidelity. I believe I did that out of frustration for all the Giving I did (per MB) and then to discover his text message exchange.

At this point, what can I do? Should I ask that this thread be combined with the thread over there? The issue is, the folks over there will not advise on snooping and his possible EA/PA issues. They advise about implementing MB.

What do I do here?

Also, how does the bookstore incident change what Mel said to do?

We happened to be "his" area of the house for studying, gaming etc.

When we are elsewhere he leaves the room. My H has an issue with anger.

One person suggested that I still have too many threads about my situation. But at this point I have this one and the one over @ MB101 where my story is fully laid out. It's the "My Story" link in my signature.

Should I just close this thread down? If I do that I feel that I will not be advised @ MB101 about snooping and my H's possible EA/PA.

Should I close the MB101 thread down? If I do that, I don't feel that the SAA folks will help me with MB principles.

Here, Mel has advised me to snoop. The folks here are saying that the bookstore incident means I have the mindset of a wayward spouse and that would change the advise I would get in here, but I don't see it. I see the bookstore incident as my Taker getting the best of me due to my Giving juxtaposed against my discovery of that "pretty lady" text message exchange. I have no desire to repeat the behvior or find some man to have an affair with.

I WANT MY MARRIAGE!

Chris, have you read about "Owners, Renters and Freeloaders?" Pep bumped up that thread recently. I get the sense that you and your H are both Renters in your marriage.

The bottom line is you were trolling--dipping a toe in the water--trying the infidelity suit on for size when you took off your wedding ring and chatted up this "attractive divorced man" for nearly an hour. Maybe you didn't go off to a hotel room and sweat up the sheets this time, but you took the first step down the path that will get you there. And if you think you have problems now. . . !

You need to get your emotional needs met and your husband is certainly lovebusting. Your marriage is in crisis. But you had a choice as to how to deal with that--you could have started divorce paperwork. You could have gotten full on with the MB program and changed your marriage into something better for both of you. But that's not what you DID. You chose to be dishonest--both to the man you were USING and your husband. That's a problem only you can solve through ruthless self-examination and determination to become a healthier person emotionally no matter what your H does. Take responsibility, Chris, instead of looking to your IC to "figure it out" for you. Just do the right thing.

People here are very savvy. They have heard every justification for bad behavior known to mankind. They are tough, but fair. You cannot go wrong by using MB principles in your marriage.

Everyone here wants you to succeed and have a wonderful marriage. But if you are always defensive of your actions and skeptical of the advice you get here, it will take a heck of a lot longer. Your choice.

Nano,

I have read that article and my answers placed me solidly in the Buyer category. I believe in marriage and I believe in fidelity.

I understand what you are saying about my trolling & dipping. Let me say this: I reported that Immediately after the bookstore I felt full of myself. "Sweet Revenge?" Probably. But you know what I discovered after thinking about it after the IC session and talking it out on MB101? I absolutely did not like the fit of the infidelity suit. It isn't for me, Nano. And it isn't related to him. It's about me. No matter what relationship I am in - I (Chris) am not a cheater or a wayward.

I did not file for divorce. I did implement MB weeks ago and I have experienced real and positive changes to my marriage in that short time. It was truly amazing. I very much believed in MB - which is why I learned as much as I could and put it to work. I believed in it when I first read it because it made so much sense, but now I also believe it because of the real changes I have seen in my marriage.

That bookstore thing happened for me after I discovered that text message exchange and marinated in it.



That's why I am in IC. I have suffered massive amounts of emotional damage due to abuse in my marriage. That is very true. I am struggling to find myself again and to grow....but mostly to be honest with my feelings (even the "not so nice" ones) which I was used to mercilessly suppressing to avoid My H's anger and his AOs. It started to seep into other interactions. I found myself pretending that I wasn't angry, shocked, disgusted, impatient and pretending I was happy and gleeful so people wouldn't get angry with me for being angry. That was my choice. I should have placed boundaries for myself with his AOs and anger as well as other people's. I didn't, and I am working on getting to the point of doing that now.

What is it that you are telling me to do when you say "take responsibility"? Are you saying I should tell my Husband about the bookstore incident at this point.

I am not opposed to coming clean - I just want to do it at the right time. Is that OK? How does that work with my plan for snooping? Is my plan for snoping still valid?

I simply don't want to compound one act of stupidity / one mistake with even more stupidity and mistakes.

I gotcha. You felt the infidelity suit didn't fit you. But most people would say the same thing. There aren't a lot of people who set out to have an A. I wish I had a nickel for every time it "just happened". But you started a process that leads to full-blown infidelity. You were looking to get needs met by someone other than your H. This is now a part of your history. It's a part of what you bring to your M. This affects your relationship with your H, whether he knows it or not.

People who are actively committed to their M don't take their ring off and hang out in bookstores, hoping to attract another person's attention.

Also, I don't mean to be disrespectful or combative with skepticism and defensiveness, and I appreciate everyone's patience.

As you all know, a marriage in crisis is a painful and confusing situation. There are a few different reactions to the situation and to some of the info here: shock, disbelief, "does this apply to me" syndrome, confusion, anger, sadness, despair, fear and more fear...

Please do not leave me alone with this. If you do, we will most probably end up in Divorce.

Now that we're all on the same page and I know that the forums don't typically cross, I need you to tell me what's what. PLEASE.


Do I still snoop?

When is the best time to come clean about the bookstore to H?

If you all are advising me to still snoop, I can continue to use the threads which links to "My Story" for help with doing MB and only report back here on the snooping results. Would that be OK?

Help!

M,

It seems to me that waywards continue their behavior and they continue to deny, lie, and justify (from what I have seen here), and I have personally observed and rebuffed many people who actively seek extramarital activity. (I work in Law Enforcement.)

I want my marriage. I have zero interest in continuing that behavior and I am willing to come clean. What else can you tell me or advise me at this point? I posed very specific questions...hopefully they are the right questions.

Help please!

I have been properly 2X4ed & I get it.

Very open to what the vets are advising at this point. Esp MelodyLane.

Please help me.

Thanks.

Okay, let's try to piece together your conflicted mindset.

Here are some quotes from your posts:

Mar. 29: I also keep wondering if there's someone else out there for me. Wondering if I am making a mistake by trying to save this marriage.

And

Mar. 30: I set up a separate email originally because I felt we were going to get a divorce and I started doing research online about the divorce process.

Then

Apr. 1: I did not file for divorce. I did implement MB weeks ago and I have experienced real and positive changes to my marriage in that short time. It was truly amazing. I very much believed in MB - which is why I learned as much as I could and put it to work. I believed in it when I first read it because it made so much sense, but now I also believe it because of the real changes I have seen in my marriage.

Apr. 1: I have read that article and my answers placed me solidly in the Buyer category. I believe in marriage and I believe in fidelity.

Then why are you entertaining thoughts about there being someone else out there for you, a married woman?

After getting on the MB bandwagon,

That bookstore thing happened for me after I discovered that text message exchange and marinated in it.

Apr. 1: It seems to me that waywards continue their behavior and they continue to deny, lie, and justify (from what I have seen here),

And then

Mar. 31: I confessed - I let the folks on the MB101 side know. They set me straigt immediately. But as I live and breathe I am not saying a dmaned thing to my H about it. It was a stupid meaningless lashing out type of thing.

So you're lying by omission, since you only 'confessed' to anonymous posters on a forum and not your H, denying IB, and justifying your actions by blaming your Taker. See what I'm saying?

I'm seeing a lot of evasive, LB behavior between you and your H. Can you do counselling with Steve?

Yes I do see what you're saying.

Moving forward - Do you have any advice?

Thanks

Chris, just take a breath. No one is going to just leave you alone. There are alot of people here and I'd say 99.9% want to help. So don't panic.

The advice for snooping will not change. You still need to find out the truth about your life. You are still trying to save your M. So plan A is still in order. Part of plan A is improving you. Taking responsibility for your 50% of your M. Implementing ALL of the MB principles will work to improve your M as you have already seen. So being open and honest goes for you too. It applies to your actions and your feelings. It would be best to explain to your H what happened and why. It was your decision to do it and you cannot place blame on him for that decision. That's what "taking responsibility" means. You own it.

Most have found that the longer a secret is kept the worse the consequences. We learn this as children and it applies to us as well. Find the time or make the time to tell him.

If you have two threads going it's just hard for us to know EXACTLY what's going on in your life. Small details are important. Most people are not going to go back and forth trying to find out what's going on so depending on what's the most important situation, you might want to pause posting on one of them. It's just easier for everyone.

So keep breathing. Don't panic. I suspect Mel will be back soon toting her pistolas. Keep snooping.

You seem desperate for more posts. There are a couple of things that you can do in the meantime.

You can read through all the articles on the site...more than once even. I would start with the Policy of Radical Honesty.

There is A LOT of Plan A info to read. I hardly posted when I first got here. I read read read Plan A info and other people's threads, made notes, bookmarked others' posts. There is the Notable Posts forum which has a lot of great stuff.

You can also re-read your own threads. I re-read what people posted to me many times before some of the things sunk in. One piece of advice that you have ignored that I think would be helpful for you to re-think is your decision to skip on the keylogger for now.

Let's tackle the possible A: you need to snoop. That's it in a nutshell. If you don't snoop, you'll find nothing, and that leaves you indefinitely in a state of limbo. And I don't mean wimpy, panty-waisted snooping, either. I mean SNOOP. SIMS card, keylogger, go through his car, follow him, root through his sock drawer, his dresser, his mail, his pockets - there's a Snooping 101 thread that I think someone already posted to you. Read. Implement.

What you do after that depends on what you find.

What maritalbliss said.

Chris- We are here. We are reading. We will help you. You will also need to help us help you. Read, Plan A and snoop. That's the plan for now. Got it?

Michael,

With regard to what you said about O & H:

I believe you are saying O & H applies to me and to him and if I'm doing MB I need to be O & H with my husband, so I am thinking you are telling me I need to fess up about the bookstore thing. Pls confirm.

My question is why doesn't O & H apply to our snooping activities? (I'm sure this question has been asked before. If so, pls link me to the thread with the answer.)

Thanks a million.

Ditto.

It has really helped me to reread advice given on my thread many times.

This is not just an oral discussion that you hear once with no record. If anything, it's a class where you take notes.

Review your notes.

No. I am not desperate for more posts.

I would like to know where I go from here. I was upset at being accused of hiding the bookstore thing. I wasn't hiding it, I felt that this topic was separate and that people could see it @ MB101 anyway - and some people did. I was not hiding anything.

I was (am) also upset to think that my husband knew I was snooping before I admitted it. I have no confidence in my snooping abilities and I just don't know what I should do about that. It seems that I can't even do a basic manual cell phone snoop without being found out.



Already there.

I recall when I first got to the forum I was not open to quite a few things which were said to me. I have gone back and re-read them and many things sunk in...particularly the stuff about taking responsibility for my part in the marriage and not focusing so much on what he does becasue I can't control that. I can control me and what I do and how I respond. That's the key to cleaning up m,y side of the street and changing the dance of my marriage by changing my steps in the dance.

It has been asked and there are links on here from what Dr H has answered similar questions. I am going to do some digging and find what I can. Please be patient.

So what LBs have you been working on today? What Plan A thing are you going to do today? What are your WH's top 5 ENs? These are MB things that you can work on in the meantime.

There is a great thread about this somewhere; if noone posts it, please keep asking until they do. If still noone posts it, ask MelodyLane directly.

t/j
I could have used the MelodyLane line too. She is BatGirl(hehehehe) but we can't always ask her. HEHEHEHE t/j over

Thanks for asking Scot.

I have not seen my H very much today. He went to work and I stayed in town for some appointments. I am in between appointments at the moment.

I have not had my H do the EN Quiz yet. I would like to ask him to take the quiz...perhaps I could wait a few days for things to calm down a bit, print it out & then ask him. Since I have started to do MB, whenever I see any opportunity to any EN, I take it. The bolded items appear to be high on his list:

Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration

The LBs I work on each day are:
Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Dishonesty

As you know I recently had a go-round with the last one and still have something to rectify on that front.

This may not completely answer your question, Chris, but it's in this article

Chris, hang in there. You will "get" it. MB is a huge paradigm shift for most of us.

When I posted, do the right thing, I meant just that--do the right thing! You knew it was WRONG to pretend to be an unattached woman and troll for a strange man's sexual attention. But you did it anyway. You don't need an IC to tell you it was wrong, you already knew it. You just want the IC to come up with a justification for doing what you WANTED to do. Remember that the IC, as lovely a person as I'm sure they are, has a profit motive--they can't take a chance on alienating you with the "unadulterated" truth, the way that we can.

Stop blaming your husband's abuse/anger, etc for your bad behavior. No one made you stay with him. You chose to stay with him. You did not set boundaries when he threatened you, physically and emotionally. You behaving dishonestly does not cancel out his behaving boorishly. To the contrary--you are both amping each other up and destroying your marriage.

I believe that the fact he has been violent before is an issue and you may want to be in a safe place when you tell him. Posters more familiar with DV will hopefully weigh in on the best way to handle that situation.

I believe you when you say you don't see the dishonesty in your behavior--you were really blindsided when we took you to task for your fishing expedition. When you begin to look more closely, you will see what we see and hopefully begin to change it--because I do believe you want a better life!

Nano,

First, My IC was very blunt with what she first said about the bookstore thing. She was neither kind nor cute about it. She reacted much the same way the folks here did. Part of her job is to help me find my "answers" and I shared that part of what she said. My big Q was WHY? Why on earth did I do such a thing? Not that the answer to that would lessen the fact that what I did was wrong, but if I never find out why I did it I may not be able to address it and correct my thinking...If I am not careful, it could be repeated again.

I have moved way past blaming my H for his behavior. An MB member named Loving Anyway helped me with that early on. I know that my choices are mine and mine alone. I chose to be with him, I chose to stay, I chose to walk into that bookstore.

At this point I do not believe that violence will occur. Since you probably haven't read my story @ MB101 you may not know why - but I'll say here that my H will not be violent with me anymore. I have handled that situation & the penalty is too high for him. He will try AO though.

I am getting that a few people think I need to confess to him about the bookstore. Are you thinking that too Nano? The question for me is when is the right time to do that?

NOW.

Quotes from Dr. Harley's book "Love Busters," pages 120-121:

Radical honesty DOES NOT apply to snooping. If you investigate a spouse and find them innocent, you might mention it to them, but RH should not be used to undermine your ability to snoop. In your case, Chris, you have already found something incriminating so he should never be told about it. INDEFINITELY.




Also, I DO NOT believe you should tell your H what you did in the bookstore at this time. Save that for when your marriage gets into recovery. RH is for RECOVERY. Nor do you need to ask a "counselor" why you did it. You know why you did it. I don't think you are a "wayward" but think you were acting like a dumbas*. [something in which I have great experience! ]

Did you get that keylogger installed?

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{[CHRIS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Personally...

I DO NOT think your husband is having an affair. I'd bet $20 on it. I could be wrong and certainly think you should continue snooping but I doubt you'll find anything doing so. IF he had committed adultery it is in the past now so no amount of snooping is going to reveal anything. Hopefully guilt and a solid recovery push will get any truth out him as it's likely the only way you'll find out. The guy was deployed a time or two so his secrets are likely quite safe so he'll be a tough nut to break (but secrecy will destroy your recovery efforts from the inside).

I don't make such prediction lightly. I am almost always on the side seeing red flags and guessing there IS an affair. My reasoning in this case is based upon things I mentioned before regarding the texts but also:

1. He stated he thought a divorce was the way to go because he's sick of trying and sees no hope for restoration of a loving marital relationship; however, he was willing to wait TWO YEARS to see the divorce process through due to financial stuff and to make sure Chrisnova was on her feet (literally). Waywards don't WAIT...they want out so they can be with their soulmate AND legitimize their adultery before being discovered. This is true even if he's not having a typical "soulmate" affair. If he's merely banging some girl but not emotionally attached, he'd still want out immediately before he got caught and so he could REALLY undertake acting like a single guy.

2. I've seen no indication her husband is acting like a love-sick teenager. No mid-life crisis behaviors typically of someone who is thinking they are cool, hip and young which typifies a wayward.

3. You didn't show up here with suspicion as most others do. You didn't google "infidelity" even subconsciously to find MB and only just now showed up on the infidelity section. I usually believe people don't show up on SAA by accident and thus, whether they know it or not...their spouse is having an affair. You showed up here as an after-thought to ONE suspicious email. Not enough for me to get on board the affair train....YET.
As far as telling your husband about the coffee shop.

I don't think you should tell her husband about the coffeeshop YET. I certainly think/hope a day will come where you'll share such details of you life with him in an open and honest way. "Hell no" is not a proper way to approach "open and honesty" but the timing of telling him needs to be appropriate for a recovery. I kinda see it like situations where a couple is recovering but the BS keeps the snooping a secret for awhile (like I didn't tell Mrs. W certain things her mom and I did for well over a year of recovery). It's just going to make him really mad. He won't approach it with understanding at all because he and Chrisnova are still in a marital blame war. It will just become ammo for him to blameshift everything onto Chris for the downfall of their marriage and an excuse not to "try" (which she has been working with Steve Harley attempting to get him on-board with).

I think the passage of time has a way of mellowing things out. If he found out today what she did just last week it will make him angrier than if she waits and tells him later about what she did 6 months ago (presuming he's on board then working on the marriage too). There will hopefully come a time, as there is in all recoveries where each side is willing to open up honestly about their shortcomings and actions which contributed to the downfall of the marriage. THAT is the appropriate time to open up about such incident at the peace negotiations where she and her husband are wiping the slate clean and rebuilding.

Last thing...I am in no way saying what she did was right. It WAS dangerous behavior....as dangerous as her husband flirting with the coworker by text. Plently of non-mb marriages have this type of behavior all over them. Heck...I didn't even wear a wedding ring the first 8 years of my marriage (it was too annoying but after infidelity I found the desire and a comfortable one that I like to wear). It was stupid risky behavior but, imo, not abnormal at all for any seemingly betrayed spouse on the edge of divorce.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- this is where MB is great at keeping YOU accountable as you are the only one here.

p.p.s. - getting him on board with MB? Read the book "Wild at Heart". You'll end up trying to appeal to his manly desire to achieve and be a success. He CAN be succesful at marriage. It's one thing easily within his control as his wife is ready, willing and implementing changes. All he needs to do is "try". Men aren't quitters (not calling women names by implication this is based on the fact woman file for divorce twice as often as men)

I'm in agreement with Mel that you should wait until you are in recovery. I am not so sanguine as you that you have any control over his violence. Why take a chance?

If I could give you any advice at this point, it would be not to be so quick to "answer" every point a poster brings up with counterpoint. It's like walking in quicksand to advise someone who already has the answer to everything. Why ask us if you are always going to argue about the answer?

I don't care why you were hootching about the bookstore--I advise you not to do it.

I don't care if you think you have your husband muzzled--I advise you to be mindful of his propensity for physical violence.

Sometimes it's a good idea to just be still and mull things over.

Thank you Mr W.

I agree on all points.

Mark (Who is w.a.a.a.a.y.y.y.y... too busy to think before posting and so shouldn't be posting at all)

The biggest help in the world to me was to come to believe this: if I were my wife, with her genetics, her upbringing, her life experiences, I would have reacted the same way to me as she did. I quit disrespectfully judging her for her love busters. Yes, those love busters still made painful withdrawals from my love bank. But I quit judging her for them. I quit saying to myself (and sometimes to her) "I would never do that."

That made all the difference in the world in my attitude. It turned scores of my love busters into better behavior. Disrespectful judgments became empathetic understanding. Selfish demands (which I thought were not selfish since I was demanding "for the marriage" and therefore "for my wife" not "for me" (alone)) became thoughtful requests. Lessening the DJs and SDs lessened the AOs, though there was, and is, still further to go on that count.

Chris, your husband has reasons for his behavior. He may be interpreting those reasons differently than you. He may be handling things in pretty terrible ways. But he simply doesn't know any better way at this time. If you let yourself marinate in judgment over him, not only are you engaging in a love buster yourself, but every love buster he commits against you will hurt ten times as much and deplete your love bank ten times as badly. That's a hell of a bad way to go into a Plan A, if necessary.

And if you don't filter closely what people say to you here, there are plenty of people here who encourage resentment and judgment and can gladly help you make the problem worse.

Thought just popped in my head...may be better for your other thread but oh well...

Your husband is/was a military guy...20 years as I recall.

I am not military and don't have any close friends that were/are so I'm just shooting from the hip here but...

Would a military type guy be MOST comfortable in a state of conflict? He is trained for it after all. Conflict is his workplace and WINNING is always the goal. Withdrawal and intimacy are both UNCOMFORTABLE places for him. He hates withdrawal and is considering a divorce but fixing it and achieving intimacy, to him, seems impossible and scary too. He probably doesn't think HE can do it.

As far as talking him into an MB weekend...expanding upon this...what if you referred to it as boot camp for marriages? Boot camp training brainwashes the "individual" right out of ya and incorporates obediance and unity/cohesion amoungst the "unit". You two NEED such cohesion. No more battles except ones you both undertake as part of the same "unit" against an outside force. Such "outside force" is trying to destroy your marriage. Make you and him doubt it's fixable. You can team up with him to FIGHT against the notion that you two won't work. You attempt to engage him as your leader in this battle and any good leader seeks out a WINNING BATTLE PLAN.

Just rambling thoughts...

W

Mel,
Thanks for not giving up on me. I will save the info re/ the Bookstore Incident for the appropriate time in Recovery. I have not done the keylogger yet. I will be doing some research on it and then I will installing it asap. My hesitation / fear is that I do not seem to be good snooper. I want to be smart about this and I will get this done asap.

Mr W & Markos,
I appreciate those responses. Thanks for taking the time to think about my situation and provide your insights. Markos, thanks for sharing your thought process about how to stop DJing and SDing + how to view AOs. "intellectually" I know that empathy & trying to see things through your spouse's eyes goes a long way towards eliminating those LBs. But gosh - it was very helpful to see it spelled out like that. Mr. W I have ordered that book.

Nano,
Thank you. I do keep his propensity for violence in mind and I was thinking that maybe that's part of my "resentment & fear leads to lack of emotional honesty" problem. IDK...Living in fear of my H is no way to live; however, I get your point about not being foolish. I am sorry that I come off like a "point-counterpoint" person to you. Please consider that I want to really learn this stuff... so I tend to probe and ask lots of questions. Any doubt I have which crops up, I want to know the answer right away. I am very eager and glad to be here. The info here is awesome and incredible and I feel like there is so much to learn.

Everyone,
I really appreciate you all & the support I get here. Please know that I will not be hootching around in the future. I realize that my behvior in that regard must have offended many people here who are betrayed spouses. I know that what I did was 100% wrong, unjustified, dangerous, and stupid.

Well, okay. Now stop being so darned human!

This sounds dead on Mr W.!

Marriage Bootcamp would probably appeal to his military side.

BTW-I just got His Needs Her Needs & The Dance of Anger in the mail today. I'll be finishing Love Busters this evening & then get started on the other books asap.


Thanks so much!

Chris,

Since you are working with Steve, you should tell him about the "Incidentgate" and have him guide you on what would be the BEST approach should be. That would be my best advice....Let the professional guide you....



ABSOLUTELY, which is one of the reasons I brought up the bookstore incident....BTW, while I do not believe that you are wayward, it is this behavior that gets there. I also know that your being in a vunerable place in your marriage also puts you at a greater risk.....Lastly, having an affair is NOT a path I would want you to take. The damage done to the wayward is SIGNIFICANT and painful.....not something I wish for you...

(((((Chris)))))))

Does your head hurt??? Or is it spinning yet???....

Yeah, we can be a bit brutal over hear on SaA......

but only on those we care about.....

not2fun

You guys are EEeevil brutal.

I had to wrap my head in ice.

Only those from Texas....... :twoxfour

(they carry guns ya' know!!!!!!!....scary stuff.....


I'll send ya some cookies......

Hey now!!! Us Texans just say what we mean and mean what we say.

I looked for the thread I was thinking about to no avail. I had to take breaks to take car of the kiddos. Then I come on here and see that Fred posted a good one and Batgirl(aka MelodyLane) came to the rescue. Thanx.

Oh my goodness...not that cookie thing again. I need to stop laughing.

Try a search for "Mark's Musings". I can't figure out how to post links or I would do that.

If you look in my thread (Want new start- she doesn't), maybe back a ways, you will see his post. I know Mark has posted in my thread and he has some great lings in his sig line.

and just for LAUGHS since you co-workers think you are CRAZY anyways.

Crazy talking WAYTURDS

Fog Gibberish

Crazy 2

Dorkisms

I hope this helps TeeHEE

Limbo, thanks!

Hey Scot. Thanks! I am reading your story...I am at the part just before X-mas.

Well, it's a bumpy ride. I don't want to spoil it for you but WH still lives with POSOW and I am still DARK. HAHAHAHAHA

Darn it!

Spoiler

It's not the END of my story yet though. It continues day to day. HAHAHAHAHA

What are some good responses to the "privacy defense" which spouse's react with when they see that you have snooped?






Pep, Mel,. Scot - help me out here. I need some short & snappy comebacks to this crap.

Mel seems to cure every problem with her husband by saying "Knock it off!"

For "I don't look through your things," how about "Why not?" Or "You should."

How about "Well, you should. Married people shouldn't have secrets from each other."

Ever see the pilot episode of Bewitched? There's a great clip in there of Samantha telling her mother "I don't think married people should have secrets from one another." She's right, and that's a perception that needs to get changed.

I've had the exact same conversation with my dad about whether or not I was going to keep things from my wife.

Here it is, right at 5:14:

I used "There is a difference between privacy and secrecy. Privacy is for when you are on the toilet. Secrecy is for when you are hiding something."

A month or two later, my WW was upset because I wouldn't allow her administrator rights on our computer. (She has a laptop that she keeps me locked out of.) She confronted me about this and I turned the tables on her.

I said, "you know what, that's great. I agree that we should have each other's passwords and live open and trasnparent. Give me your password for your computer and I'll be more than happy to give you mine." She claimed I was reacting angry and being ridiculous. Waywards......just can't figure them out.

And for Quote:You are disrespecting me by looking through my things.

How about something like "well if you weren't disrespecting me by hiding things from me, I wouldn't be inclined to look."

I defer to those with better comebacks, but wanted to share my experience.

Okay, I am not sure that these will totally follow MB so let someone else weigh in on them too. My instincts are usually counter-MB which is why I need help with it sometimes.

"You are entitled to all of the privacy you want, in the loo."

"It is disrespectful for married people to keep secrets from each other, want some tea?"

I like Markos's responses to that one.

That was something my WH said EVERYTIME he found out that I snooped on him(pre-MB it was A LOT, but I always tipped my hand, he went deeper underground and I kick myself everyday for that).

I would always say, "You are more than welcome to, I have nothing to hide," then I would grab my purse and offer it for inspection. He never accepted, although I think he looked in it when I wasn't around but I really didn't have anything to hide.

WS: I need my privacy.
BS: Ok, I will stay out of the bathroom when you're in it, and you can have your privacy. Everything else is OPEN SEASON.



WS: You disrespect me when you go through my things.
BS: I'm only going through your AFFAIR stuff. Nothing else.


WS: There should be SOME secrets in a marriage!
BS: Okay, fair enough. I won't tell you when I'm going through your stuff. That will be MY secret.


WS: I need to have somewhere that is my own, where you don't hear or see anything!
BS: They call that a vacuum. We have one in the closet, and while you are vacuuming, I will do the dishes. Thanks for offering.


SB

All great responses, SB, but the last 2 were superb!

tl

Classic. (Unfortunately)

To me this sounds like a DJ. I'd keep the "you" out of it. I'd say something like "I'm staying informed about the state of our marriage so that I can protect it."

ETA - nevermind, I just saw Schoolbus' responses.
Love them!

Chris,

I have not been able to be on MB for some time and just thought I'd stop in and take a look. I saw your post and only read the first page but felt compelled to write to you when I read that you and your H have NO unaccounted-for time.

That makes NO difference unless you spend EVERY waking moment together.

My H is visually impaired, does NOT drive, lives 1 hour from where he works and I drive him EVERYDAY. NO exceptions. I work across the street from him and we talk upwards of 5 times a day at work. His A took place totally at work. Yuk. There were only 2 occasions when he saw her outside the workplace and I was an unknowing participant in getting him there. But that was all. For 1 year he had an affair where he worked. A full-blown PA.

When the few people who know found out, they ALL said, "But how??? You're always together."

When cheaters want to cheat, they cheat. No place is off limits, no situation is unacceptable, nothing is sacred.

I realize this may have already been covered because I have only read your first page, but I felt you needed to see that anything is possible when it comes to adultery.

Blessings to you.

WH2LE

LOL!

Thanks everyone..I LOVE those and I'll be using some of them.

If you have anymore, please don't be shy!

The SIM Card Reader has arrived. Now I need to figure out how to use it...

Cover me - I'm going in...

We got yer six, Chris.

This was posted by Spacecase many years ago. I 2uote it from time 2 time, but haven't in a while:


-ol' 2long

Fantabulous

A milion thanks

Great post 2long.

Good luck Chris with the Simcard reader....wish I knew there was soemthing like that.

I have the reader; however, I need to stop by the cell phone store and hope they'll show me how to use it on the phone (with one they have there). I have to be stealthy with this!

I had the opportunity to search his work bag. Nothing. BEnn on his PC again. Nothing. (Still need to get the keylogger on. I may do that tomorrow while he is out with our child. They'll be gone for 1.5 hours.)

On the positive side, he continues to respond more and more each day to the MB things I am doing. For example, he seeks me out for the UA now. Also, we are working much more cooperatively on things as well.

That is encouraging news Chris. Keep up the good work.

Update...

I have searched his car & his work bag a few times now + I manually search his cell phone & compare it to the cell phone records online every day. I continue to search through his email account and his FB page each day as well. I have found ziltch.

Some things I can't do:
I am unable to search his work cell phone.
I can't get access to his email account at work.

I still haven't used the SIM card reader on his personal cell phone becasue I am unsure how to do it (I need to stop by the verizon booth or maybe radio shack and see if I can get some help); however, with the activity I am seeing on phone at this time, I doubt it will turn up anything...but I am still going to do it.

I was not able to install the keylogger this week as I had hoped. I did not have enough time alone in the house. We have had so much UA time. Today he'll be gone for a few hours + I'll be sending our child outside to play, and so I'll be installing the key logger on his PC.

Each day seems to bring us closer and closer in our marriage. At this point, I am not seeing any overt wayward spouse behavior; however, I am going to follow through and double check so I can confirm & verify because I have to consider the fact that my earlier revelation re/ the text message may have served to push wayward activity further underground - if there is any taking place. Also, I have read in this forum about "false recovery" because a wayward spouse secretly kept in contact their OW / OM. I can't deny the fact that I found that text message and it warrants investigation.

My only question is this: How long do I keep up the snooping? How long do I keep the keylogger installed? 30 days? 60 days? a year? forever?

OK...HERE I GO! Our child is playing outside & I'm ready.

Based on the recommendations of the fine folks here, I went to this site: http://www.spectorsoft.com/ and I purchased EBlaster for Windows.

I had to call the 800 # for help because I didn't know the difference between EBlaster & SpectorPro. They were both choices at the site - you can buy them separately or together. According to the customer service person, with SpectorPro you'd have to go the PC to view activity whereas EBlaster sends transcripts directly to an email address of your choosing. Eblaster is the one for me.

Another note for anyone who is a novice - after you buy the EBlaster, you'll get an email with insructions which you can use to install the item on the PC you wish to monitor.

Since I have been educated about "privacy" versus "secrecy" within the context of a marriage, I don't feel any guilt about this at all. If I do get "caught" I will simply say that I was simply trying to discover the truth about our life together and to protect our marriage, and I will say that confidently because it's the truth.

I've come a long way baby!

Good job...I hope the eblaster works for you. Honestly I hope you find nothing and that this is all for peace of mind.

It's on!

The Eblaster is installed & set up for daily reports.

I hope that I don't find anything too. Thanks Smiley & thanks to everyone for your support.

WTG Chris. You deserve the truth about your life. Good job.

OK, it's only been a day and here's what I have so far: Nothing surprising or out the ordinary. My H received a few emails, viewed Porn for about 10 minutes and he also spent about 5-6 minutes on the official web site of his favorite football team before he came up to bed last night.

I would like to talk about the porn:

At this point I have stopped looking at porn because of what I have learned here @ MB. I would like to address the porn thing with my H.

The situation is - Right now, my H gets porn pictures and jokes sent to him via text message by a male friend almost daily and he visits free porn sites on the web ocassionally. Before learning about MB, I didn't think anything was wrong with viewing porn, and I even viewed porn ocassionally myself. My H does too. We each know / knew this about the other. My H also knows I have vibrators.

I have learned that Dr H. says porn is a no-no because we should not be seeking sexual experiences without our spouse. Learning that - I stopped viewing the porn. I have not shared the MB philosophy regarding porn with my H; however, I have incorporated it into my behavior and thinking.

I think I could gently introduce the topic when we discuss the LB & EN Quizzes next week. I listed the porn under "annoying habits" this way in part C of section 5. Annoying Habits:


Any ideas / thoughts / comments?


*Also posting this on the other side for assistance from that perspective

How are you going to bring up 'porn' without blowing your cover. I would certainly let it slide for a while, because no good will come of it at this moment in time. You CANNOT act on what you find, until you find something really worth acting on. This is the problem with snooping. Sometimes you find an issue, but that wasn't why you put it on the computer.

Use your head... keep cool and wait. If he is up to something, it will eventually show. But if you go and bring up something which you COULDN'T KNOW ABOUT... then you will have tipped your hand and you won't get anything else. He will just go deeper. If you wait for a LONG TIME and nothing comes up, you can THEN bring it up in a round-about way.

IMO

I think simply mentioning your change of thinking on the subject might be good. It would be a good chance to display open/honesty.

Something like, "I know we both look at porn from time to time. I have been thinking about this lately and feel it might help our situation out if we were to both agree to stop looking at porn and focus only on each other. I have decided to stop. How do you feel about this?"

I think it might be hard to claim it's an annoying habbit if it only became annoying to you recently. At the same time, if you can express that you don't like it, in a non-threatening manner, maybe he will stop. Just a thought.

You're right - I can't blow my cover...

The key thing is we both know about each other's online porn viewing and we recetly talked about his pal sending him the texts...a few times when we have been out together some came up & he showed me - so the texts are definitely out in the open...

How's this editted version for the Quiz discussion? I changed it so that it says "I think" he's looking at porn online.

This seems like a better way....a thoughtful request. Thanks!

My stock answer for many of these...it's become something we 'sort of' joke about...

"You can do anything you want when you live alone."

and to continue on with this (will only need to say this once), "but while in a M with me I have asked for some things, honesty, tranparency, and no secrets. And I would hope you would expect the same from me. But if we were no longer M, you can do anything you want."

So when my FWH spouts off, "I just want a day where I don't have to take the kids anywhere..." I reply, "You can do anything you want when you live alone."

Interesting...

Chris or anyone else out there that knows can you install this eblaster on a personal laptop pc that has a password lock on it at all times?? My spouse never leaves it running w/o the password lock on it...even going to the toilet....I have never been able to check the history even once....I am not computer savy at all....but for a good yr or longer I noticed this and thought it odd as I leave mine running and not locked all the time....so I was thinking fine I'll lock mine to even if I go 10steps away to the toilet like he has been doing. His home laptop is here during the day but locked so I figure I can't do this or any other device.....I would like to know what he is into online and what kind of emails he gets to be honest....maybe since I started reading over here instead of MB101 I am getting parnoid but I would feel better if I had a peak at it but since there is no A or anything going on in my marriage I feel like even talking about this here is so wrong to do....geez I sound nuts.

Also how do you get the password for your spouses email account...thru the eblaster??

Thank you

Chris,

I've read your thread and am not ready to jump on the "he's having an affair" wagon. Gather more evidence.

As far as him being affectionate: My dad was very affectionate to my mom throughout their marriage and he was cheating on her with multiple women. She had no clue until she was checking his pockets before putting his clothes in the was and found a receipt for a hotel.

She otherwise didn't have a clue.

Granted, us kids knew something was wrong when he quite going to communion, but we all figured it was a mid life crisis.

In other words, your gut doesn't often fail you.

Did he cross a boundary? Sure.

My ex had poor boundaries as well. She saw some things as being ok, but I had issues with her hanging out alone with male friends. She told me I was jealous for no reason and that she didn't see this kid as anything other than a friend.

Just one year later she cheated on me (with other men) while I deployed.

So poor boundaries are a big issue.

Call the EBlaster folks and see what they say Gem.

Just using this area as a scratchpad for additional help with responses to "privacy" versus "secrecy" in a marriage:

Here's a quote which stands out:

This week's snoop report:

So far the cell phone records are revealing no activity as far as an OW.

What I do see is that the picture messages from the male friend with dirty jokes, etc still continue.

The EBlaster is revealing a little less than 10 minutes of porn a few nights a week. No inappropriate emails or anything like that.

Some will say he may have taken his "affair" deeper underground; however, I really don't sense or see anything. Still snooping...

I am glad that you haven't found anything inappropriate on the keylogger. I agree that for your own personal state of mind you can snoop but don't become obsessive. That can also hurt your M. Trust but verify. You are a big help on these boards too.

No big chance of me becoming obsessive with this. The EBlaster makes things effortless -just the way I prefer it LOL!

...plus I really don't get the sense that he's cheating...seriously.

Thanks

I have my fingers and TOES crossed for you. This is not something I would wish on ANYONE. It would be better to KNOW what you are up against that's all. I am glad that you are getting some kind of peace of mind.

What Scottie said.
Here's hoping you find NOTHING.
And if you do, "know thy enemy".

Nothing so far everyone....

For month 1 the average amt of porn viewing was just under 7 minutes per day.

Other snooping revealed nothing.

We completed the Seminar & are now into the MB Lessons.

My feelings on the porn have evolved as we are completing our Lessons. And, unfortunately, they have evolved for the worse...meaning - the more I am learning what a healthy marriage should be, I am beginning to resent the porn viewing although it appears to be small.

I am talking with our MB Coach about this.