We're about 20 days past "d day." Let me preface this with our situation. We're both active duty Army officers. Due to her finishing school 1 year after me, she was one year behind in joining the Army, and the cumulative effect of that is that we haven't cohabitated in almost 2 years due to initial training. This fall was supposed to be the end of that. We are (were) going to be stationed together and actually live together again. We lived together for 2 years before being married, and dated a year before that. I'm currently in Afghanistan, until August.

I attempted to contact OM's spouse, she found out, confronted me, it all came out. Primarily an emotional affair since they're geographically separated. It was physical before they were separated. Her initial reaction was "I'm in love with him. I haven't been in love with you in a long time. I want out. There's nothing to work on and nothing to try for. I want a divorce NOW." She was extremely cold, emotionless, angry and hurtful. My initial reaction was that I loved her and she needed to stop this. We held those positions for about a week. Finally one night she broke, and agree to marriage counseling. A couple of sweet emails, then I didn't hear anything from her from a couple days. The next thing I got was a long email explaining how I had manipulated her into feeling bad, and I'm a terrible person and she's not happy and she wants out.

So another week goes by, the whole time I'm trying to stay positive and not be angry. I find the marriage builders basic concepts, and send them to her. The next time I talk to her she's telling me how much sense it all makes, how we weren't meeting each others needs, but now she sees, and she's so sorry. And we talked for about 3 days, VERY positively, with her assuring me that there would be no more contact with the OM, and she sent a "no contact" letter. We both read all of the basic concepts on here, and the Surviving Infidelity articles. She agreed to come live with me when I get back, and she was talking about our future again, how she wants a baby with my eyes, etc etc. She ordered the marriage builder book series for us as well. Then, seemingly out of nowhere, I talk to her this morning and she's again distant, almost emotionless. I asked her how she was feeling (since we've been sharing our feelings through the policy of radical honesty) and she said, "It would probably hurt you to feel." I asked her to tell me anyway, and it was, "I can't do this. I don't want to be with you. I don't want to stop talking to (the OM.) I want to talk to HIM about my feelings and I can't just stop. I'm in love with him. This isn't going to work, it's just not. I don't want it to."

I was devastated, having a panic attack. I thought we were over the hump, but then it's right back to where we started. I've arranged a sort of long distance marriage counseling with a marriage counselor here and one where she is, but when I asked her to go, she said she didn't want to, she already has an individual counselor. I told her that the marriage counselor could provide her a lot of support, and the supervision and accountability that she (just 2 days ago) admitted she needed to stay out of contact with the OM. She responded with "why the hell would I want to make myself accountable for something I don't want to do for something else that's not going to work."

I'm a very, very strong person. I've managed to remain positive through pretty much this entire ordeal. I feel like this situation would be radically different if I could be there to hold her hands and talk to her and support her. I've done my best to try to make the marriage a good place to be, but that's pretty difficult from the other side of the planet. Compared to someone that can talk to her on the same time zone, I'm sure she feels like she's giving up the man she's in love with for a marriage to someone that's not even there.

It's also worth noting that the OM is also an active duty Army officer, is 10 years older than us, and has a wife and three children. Her initial reaction was to feel extremely threatened by my attempt to contact the OM's wife, and accuse me of threatening her, and her career, etc. I promised her that I had no intention of telling her command. But the more she waffles and goes back and forth between us, and the more I read about exposure, the more I think that it may be the only way forward. She's told me that she's told her family and friends and they support her in getting a divorce. I'm not really sure what she's told them though.

It's true that exposing them might be extremely detrimental to their careers, since they're both still in training. I have easy communications with both of their commanders, and with her and my family. My family has no idea about any of this. At the same time, I'm extremely hesitant to burn her so bad, especially after promising not to.

I'm just not sure what to do next. She doesn't seem willing to let go of this OM, even though they have no future that I can see together. There's no way he's leaving his wife and kids (he's been in the Army as an NCO for some time) because he's too invested, and he'd lose so much in a divorce. But she doesn't acknowledge that. She just says I "don't understand the situation."

I've never cheated, or lied, and she's the first to say that I'm a great guy that deserves a great person. But she says that's not her.

Help?

Hi Jeff,

It sounds like you understand exposure, you need to do this.
Affairs thrive on secrecy, as you've seen.
Contact the OM's BW.
Being in the army doesn't exclude people from the consequences of adultery.

It doesn't matter that you promised not to expose, things change.
WW promised to forsake all others, you are not doing your M any good by adhering to a promise that
enables the destruction of your M.
You say that you want to save your M, it's time to do what is necessary.
Be prepared for WW to be furious, that will fade. Ignore her rants.

You've got the added challenge of being separated right now.
I have no suggestions for you there, sorry.

Others will be along to advise.
Since it's the weekend and it will be slow, bump your thread up occasionally.
This means posting on your thread thereby moving it to the top of the list.
(it took me awhile to figure out what 'bump' meant when I first got here)

I'm sorry that you are here, many of us understand the hell that you are in.

Welcome to MB!

My concern is that being in the Army greatly magnifies the consequences. Not only is this sort of thing frowned upon, it's illegal.

You know what, I don't understand the army politics.
There is a forum here specifically for Military Marriages.
I don't know what is over there but hopefully you can get some insight.

When you click on 'Hop to' for the list of forums, to the bottom right of your screen,
you will see that forum, it is 8th from the top.

Essentially it would be like if your spouse could be fired from their job if their boss found out they were having an affair.

I guess your WW should have thought about the consequences of her actions before she decided to commit adultery.

If you fear the repercussions of exposure, from your WW, you have a poor chance of saving your M.

Contact the OM's BW, your WW's family and any other significant others who have influence over WW.
The OM's BW will be your best source of ending this right now, you said that he will not leave his family due to these circumstances of the army.
Would he not drop her like a hot potato if he thought that this A might be founded out???

I'm not familiar with all of the threads over here in SaA.

Is there anyone around that knows of a thread where the WH or WW is in the army???

Could you link or name the thread for Jeff?

I honestly don't know if these situations are treated any different or if there are ways around exposing within the system, without a loss of job.
I do know that WS's have lost their jobs over adultery.

btw, I think it's admirable that the army considers adultery, illegal.

Sounds to me like your wife is not cut out to be in the Army. And it is not that the Army magnifies the consequences, it is that she is breaking the rules.

It is good that the two of you have read and understand the MB stuff because that will go a long way toward having a good marriage.

By the way, thanks for your sacrifice and service.

The only way you are going to be able to facilitate the end of the affair is by exposure. You need to let the OM's wife know the truth of her life so that she has some chance of protecting her family. The CO's need to know about the adultery also. And please tell both of your families and friends.

If you choose to try to protect her by not exposing, then the future of your marriage is in jeopardy.

It also hurts so much that she would do all of this while I'm on the other side of the world, and emotionally abandon me. I was totally emotionally out of control from grief initially, and literally had no one to talk to. During that time she was cold, distant, and totally unemotional.

Since then, in her "clearer" moments, she's said repeatedly how much she loves me, and wants us to have a future together. I know I can forgive, but I feel like unless she can somehow shake herself out of this fantasy, she's going to wake up in a year or so and realize she divorced someone she loved, that deeply loved her in return.

Jeff,

It may come down to a choice. Do you want your WW to have a military career, or do you want to be married?

The status quo ain't gonna work. It's a path to marital disaster. And quite frankly, this OM needs to be hammered good for what he's doing. Like maybe a trip to the gray-bar hotel in Kansas.

Spouses committing adultery are all those things that you say. Their thinking is selfish, they are thoughtless to the hurt of their BS's.
They are in 'ME' world. What you describe is typical.
It hurts, and I'm sorry that you have had to deal with this, by yourself. Tell your family, you need support through this.

WW likely had contact after these 'clearer' moments. Whether she caved and contacted OM or OM contacted her and she allowed it,
it doesn't really matter.

Contact has to stop.
NC is the first step towards recovery.
Withdrawl of her feelings for OM happens after NC has been in place.
The end of withdrawl allows the M to be restored to a better one.

Does this make sense so far??

WW will not shake this fantasy herself, she will become more entangled in it.
Exposure is the bomb that will break up the fantasy, it brings the reality of the disgusting act to light.

Right now, NC is your priority, that is step one.

She agreed to NC, wrote the letter to him. That's when things seemed like they were on the upswing a couple days ago. Then this morning it was a total reversal, I assume because of some contact with him. She said she "can't cut him out of her life" and she doesn't want to. She can't do this. Etc etc. She said the only reason she was thinking we could work things out is because she felt guilty for what she'd done to me, and that she didn't want to stay with me out of guilt. She said she'd been crying for the 3 days that I thought were good days for us, but she feels fine now, as soon as she talks to him again and gives up on our marriage.

I simply have no way to stop the contact. I'm not there, she doesn't have me for support, love, supervision and accountability.

Jeff,
She will NOT have any "clearer" moments until the affair is over. Anything and everything she says to ou right now will only be to put you at ease so she can continue the affair.

I am sorry you are here.

Here is a link that can guide you.

Both parts of the carrot and stick must be done to be effective.

Read, absorb, and implement.

Carrot and the Stick

You can do this, you really can!

This is untrue.

You have exposure.

Jeff,

Thank you for your service and I am so sorry for your pain. Please take care of yourself and try to keep your head together. You are among friends and we will help you through this.

You hold the key to NC in exposing. If you choose not to expose then you choose the end of your M. It may be the hardest thing that you have ever done and she will be furious but until you put an end to this A, your M has zero chance.

Smileygirl is a military wife currently dealing with an A and exposure and her WH being deployed. You may want to read her thread.

God's Blessings,

Say

Jeff,

You HAVE to expose. This guy isn't fit to be an Army officer. The injunction against this goes way back before the UCMJ was even a glimmer of an idea.

How about King David?

Expose. Expose NOW.

Expose them. They are not fit to be officers.

Jeff, the minute you expose to OMW and your/her CO, you won't have to worry about OM again. Sure, your WW will be mad, but she won't leave you because she's mad, she'll leave you for OM. Once OM is out of the picture, you have no worries. I exposed to my WW's employer. Afterwards, she was FULL of venom. "I was thinking of working things out with you until you put my career at risk. Now we're getting divorced." Guess what? I'm still married. It all blew over in a couple of weeks. And I imaging your situation will be the same once OM and your WW are no longer allowed to contact each other. The anger will blow over. However, your WW's flip-flopping will continue indefinitely until you expose.

There is a reason the Army has these rules. It's not up to you to enable to wife to continue to break them. Even if you didn't want to expose, you should blow the whistle anyway.

You need to expose. To tired to write more.

WW told me that she'd already told her family and they supported her, which I find hard to believe. I've just told one of her good friends (who was shocked) and I sent her mother an email. I'm getting in contact with my command back in the states for some support in reaching out to the OM and WW's commands.

Good job! I doubt that your wife had told her family as that almost never happens. If waywards tell their family, they put a spin on it. Good job on emailing her mother.

You need to tell her about the affair and let her know that you want to save your marriage and would appreciate any help.

Told her sister too. She's been talking with her sister a LOT over the past few months. Her sister is getting married next month. Haven't heard anything back from the mom or sister though. Expecting some fury coming my way from my wife.

Hi Jeff,

YOu are a young man. There things you need to really understand. I know you understand them from an Army perspective so I will put what I say in those terms. Are there consequences for a troop that messes up and hurts one of his fellow soldiers? Are their consequences for a commander that messes up and risks/endangers/leads to harm for those under him/her? IN fact aren't there consequences large and small if someone messes up while in the military?

Of course I know the answers to all of those questions, but do you? I think you do.

The OM and your W know/knew/will understand that there are consequences for doing something illegal and without morality. Do NOT protect them from those consequences. In fact, one of the MAIN tools for a betrayes spouse is EXPOSURE and allowing the WS to experience the consequences of their actions. Exposure is STRONGLY encouraged by the founder of this site and a man with years of succesful counseling of marriage where affairs have intruded.

Finally, where I went to school before commissioning, they had an honor code. It was simple it said: "Never lie, cheat or steal nor tolerate those that do." It was in place because those in positions such as yours are called to a higher standard. So is your W and so is OM. Hold them to that standard.

You are in a combat zone. You do not need nor should be focused on your W's deeds at this point. It could be deadly to you and those around you. Your W knows this, OM knows this, and so do their commanders.

Put this in the hands of their commanders for right now and focus on your job and being alert. It will do know one any good and certainly not your marriage if you are KIA.

See your Chaplain, see your JAG, and expose this affair to their commanders.

God Bless,

JL

Well, after telling one of her good friends, her mother, her sister and her best friend... She called me repeatedly. We finally got a good connection. I got, "So loving me is you trying to ruin my life?!" "Did you really think my friends were going to take your side?" "So you want to threaten me into staying married?" "I feel like I'm done talking to you. From now on you can talk to my lawyer."

I told her I was doing this because it's the right thing, and because I love her. And that I knew she was going to be mad, but hopefully she'll get over it once the affair is destroyed.

She was furious.

She just sent an email saying she'll be mailing me divorce papers (in Afghanistan.)

Normal WW response. Anger then threaten you. WW can send you all the papers she wants and you do not have to sign them. This shows that they fear exposure. Hoping that their threats stop you from exposing any further.

If WW complains again that you will be ruining her career. You just say you did not do anything. You did not have an affair. You did not break regulations. You did not force WW to have an affair. WW chose to break rules that will damage her career. It was her choices and actions.

How has exposing to the military going?

You must not stop exposing. You must tell the OMW, and his parents as well.

Talk is cheap - especially among waywards.

You need to expose OMW!!!

I'm jumping through hoops trying to contact the OMW. It's tough since I'm here in Afghanistan. I've recruited a few people in their area to help me track her down.

I've drafted the letter to their commanders, and mine. It's one letter for everyone, it outlines how the affair began, how they reacted when confronted, and presents the phone logs as proof. I doubt it's enough proof to get anyone in real trouble (that practically takes sworn statements of admission from the involved parties) but hopefully it will motivate them to seriously counsel these two.

Also I got "[censored] you" "go to hell" and "thanks for making this decision easier for me" from my WW. I've never in my life spoken to her like that, or her to me like that.

You are doing good! Do not warn your WW or OM!

And as you read from these forums - very standard WS reaction to exposure.

And as you read from these forums - angry reaction shows that exposure is working.

Get those letters out ASAP. Also send them out as emails. Double delivery insures they will be recieved and taken seriously.

It seems so crazy since only 5 days ago she was reading MB and saying how much sense it all made, we both filled out emotional needs surveys, everything seemed good, she was being rational again. Then overnight, she's saying she "can't cut him out of her life." and she "doesn't want to." And that "only guilt made her want to try with me again."

Today, after just a little exposure, she's saying "i hope your pop psychology works out for you" and "i hope your threats make you happy." All I've said is that I intend to destroy this affair, she essentially laughed at me and said I couldn't. But she's still furious.

Do not talk to her too much right now. You cannot talk her out from affair. Act, focus to your plan, do not deviate. I have been in your shoes, my FWW was furious even for the fact that I contacted OM (not OMW)!

Just keep the exposure rolling, it has the best effect when doing it over as short time as possible.

Well I've already sent messages to her best friend, one of her other friends, her sister, her mother, and soon her commander. Also soon his commander, and hopefully his wife. The letters should be in the commanders' email boxes when they get to work Monday morning. Not too hard to arrange since I'm 12.5 hours ahead of them due to the time zones.

She said your threats couldn't destroy her affair. Wait till she has to pop tall in front of her commander. And is ordered not to speak to him. And the same goes for him. The army is really starting to come down on adultery. She won't be laughing Monday. Expect the standard call from her. She will be furious, then reality will set in. She has played her only card. Threatening divorce. Oops no more cards. He will not leave his wife. And most definitely throw your wife under the bus.

Well I went over my draft letter and the phone records with my supervisor and he said it sounded good, and I had his full support. Blasted it off to all the relevant commanders across the US. I guess they'll see it Monday morning and then the circus will begin.

Good for you. She will be taken down a peg, when her command gets in her face. Stay strong. And thank you for your service.

I shot it off to her OCS company commander as well. I found out there was an investigation back then into their relationship. They denied everything and it was dismissed as rumor. They lied to his face. I figured he deserved to know.

She un-friended me on facebook. I'm not friends with my wife!

Of course, you "ruined" everything (e.g. affair), didn't you?

Stay strong.

I'm sure she's not even aware of the [censored]-storm that's in the making at this point. 3 LTCs, 2 CPTs and a full bird colonel are going to want answers come Monday morning.

she probably isn't aware.... she's mad and pissed that her little secret is coming out.... my WH definitely was....

I honestly don't see our marriage recovering from this. The level of anger and threats she's made are like nothing I've ever seen from her. Not to mention that she already seemed to have decided that she wanted a divorce.

All you say me be true. But There is something more important then your marriage. Your self respect. This is her baring the responsibilities and consequences for her actions. When everything is said and done. There is gonna be only one person to blame for this.... The girl in the mirror.

Good Morning Jeff,

Yes, you are doing good! You are doing what is right.
Many of here have been through this exposure process, we know how difficult it is and have had our own WS's scream and take tantrums on us.
It will subside.
Many times exposure has been all that is needed to stop an A in it's tracks.

When you are talking to WW, be careful not to get into back and forth spitting games.
She will continue to spew things that will make your blood boil, and your eyes roll.
She's not herself right now, it's like she is abducted by aliens, and that's how you should hear her words.
Change the subject, mention an enjoyable event that the two of you did, mention that you are committed to being M, believe in M ........
Focus on the goal of restoring your M.

I'm glad you have told people who can support you.

I don't know how much of MB your WW knows, it's best that she not know about this forum, yet.
In time when she is committed to restoring your M, she is welcome to get some guidance here.

I hope that you get some results soon about how to contact OM's BW.
Being the other victim, she needs to know what is going on in her life, her M.
You can direct her here to this site for support.

Keep reading the articles and threads.
Do you understand the Carrot and Stick ?

btw, how old are you Jeff?

I'm 25. She turns 24 next month. I've never responded to any of the angry things she's said to me from day 1. I've stayed positive, told her I understand why she feels the way she does, but I love her and want to work on the marriage. She has painted me as controlling, manipulative, monstrous, etc. But she almost always ended up saying I was a great person, she feels terrible for what she's put me through, and I deserve to be with another great person, not someone like her.

I still haven't heard back from any of her friends or family that I sent messages to. I have to wonder what she's told them about the situation.

Prepare for her to be very angry.

Well she said she didn't want to talk to me, that I could talk to her lawyer on the phone. Then she sent me a bunch of short nasty emails. Should I assume that she's not done talking then? That she won't just clam up and try to file for divorce?

Jeff:

When she hits bottom, she may very well run for the light. Be the light. I see words that indicate she may not be happy with herself right now. For good reason. And she may not know how to get out of the situation she finds herself in. For good reason.

Be the light she runs to. And she may.

Larry.

Jeff,

Believe me. Your WW said all those things to make you give up and think that exposing to the Army would either be too late or would be the final nail in the coffin. She was afraid of you exposing and did everything she could to MANIPULATE you into not exposing because she knows it will end the affair. Granted, she might file for divorce anyway to either try and save face or punish you, but the affair will be over. You never stood a chance while the affair was ongoing, but you have a chance now.

With you being deployed, won't a divorce take a long time to go through? Won't she still have to behave like a married person in the Army while the process is underway if she does file? Either way, you have bought yourself some time. If there is no OM, she is going to want someone to meet her needs, and you might be the only person legally allowed to. Honestly, once their CO's find out and there is not contact between her and OM, her anger will blow over after a few weeks/months and you'll notice her attitude may change.

Let's just put it this way. I thought my marriage was over once I exposed, but that was over 4 years ago and I'm still married. You'd be surprised how much your WW changes once she is no longer in contact w/ OM.

I'm sure she will threaten divorce, because they all do after exposure. She will tell you that you've gone crazy, you are controlling, you went about it the wrong way, how could you do that to OM's wife, it is none of your business, this is the straw that broke the camel's back, and my very favorite - she will never trust you again.

On the other hand, after exposure, the OM often will end the affair because it is too much trouble for him.

That is what we will hope for.

She's angry and trying to bait you into a fight. When I exposed, my WW left the yellow pages open on the divorce lawyer page for me to see it. She was very passive aggressive in an attempt to "get back at me" for exposing. She's just trying to punish you for exposing. I would try to take everything she says right now with a grain of salt. She's just flailing and lashing out as she approaches bottom. Let her anger subside for a few weeks before getting drawn into much conversation with her. Don't explain why you did what you did or try and justify your actions. That's just going to make her angrier. Just say something about, "I'm sorry you feel that way." If she keeps sending nasty messages ingnore them until she sends something nicer. Don't get sucked into a back and forth nasty message war. Stay strong, calm, and collected.

Yes, she can't even serve me with divorce papers while I'm in Afghanistan, I'm legally protected from that. So I have 3 months.

So no contact with her until she calms down?

Our advice is usually to Plan A your W, but plan B your WW. So, if she contacts you in a civilized manner talking about something other than wanting to divorce you, then I would respond back to her. If she just leaves nasty messages or wants to fight, then ignore her. She'll eventually learn that she will only be able to talk to you if she does so in a respectful manner. Otherwise, she'll get ignored. As for relationship talk, try to avoid that, and just say things like, "you know where I stand, so I don't want to talk about that right now." Don't talk about the relationship until there is at least 6 weeks of verified NC w/ OM and you have made enough love bank deposits where she isn't talking about leaving anymore. Even then, tip-toe lightly and table the talk before any arguments arise. Focus more on meeting ENs and avoiding LBs.

3 months is also a good time because she will likely get through most of withdrawal before you get back, and that can be awful for the BS. I think having some friends back home keeping an eye out for your WW would be a good idea because when the affair ends, the WS usually either goes back to their BS, or finds some other OM. You want to make sure she just doesn't move on to some other OM before you get back. If not, then I think you have a pretty good chance.

Even when I get back in 3 months, we don't live at the same place. She's waiting to start her branch school and I'm at my permanent duty station. She's supposed to come to live with me when she's done with school, that's been our plan for 2 years. However, that's certainly not her plan anymore. So if I go 3 months without hearing from her, and then go back home, then what? Fly out to go talk to her face to face? This situation is unique in that we haven't actually lived together in nearly 2 years, and if we don't manage to band-aid it up at least a little bit between now and say, October, we probably never will get the chance to live together.

And I have no friends where she is to "keep an eye on her." She's not accountable to anyone, that's part of the problem. Why would she leave her super happy affair for what must seem like nothing for her. Loneliness. There's no one there to support her or make her stick to NC with the OM. I think that's why she lasted 3 days after we went through a bunch of the MB stuff.

You're not experienced in the affair time line yet. The OM will most definitely throw her under the bus. This is his career and family. Your wife is not part of the equation if he risks losing it all. She is in the fog right now. It will clear. Then, if she wants a divorce it will be with a clear head.

Is it wrong that makes me feel like "leftovers" or the "fallback guy?" Once she's rejected by him then she'll settle for me again?

That's part of the battle you have to fight. Whether you want her again. You may not. But the first thing that must be done is the affair must be killed to find out. Frankly she doesn't deserve you. You are a major catch (or maybe a captain catch). You will have to beat the ladies away with a stick.

My friends have been reminding me how I used to date 4 different girls 4 nights a week. But when I met my WW, I thought all that was over. She was challenging and different. Turns out she was way more challenging that I ever could have guessed. I don't want to be single again.

IF your marriage is going to survive, then you can't live apart again. When your 3 months is up, I would suggest either working something out where you live together or call it quits. Your WW has shown her desire to get her needs met, and you can't possibly meet them if you don't live together. You'll have to make the decision of making changes to your plan or moving on with your life. You are only 25 and you don't have kids together, so it might just be a good idea to move on if you can't change your living arrangements. Long distance relationships for several years are just bound to fail.

Like I said, she'll be done with her training in october. So the plan was for her to come live with me then, permanently. Obviously once I'm back in the states I can visit her frequently for August and September until she's able to come live with me.

One thing at a time Jeff. Better that you don't mention anything about the relationship, let her talk about it. Your not the one who changed. Trust me, the less you say, the faster her fog will clear. Just be the man she you were when she first met.

Okay, that's not much longer. I was thinking it was going to be a lot longer than that. That may be manageable once she gets through withdrawal from OM.

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your service! You're getting some great advice here... stick with your guns and don't get into any relationship discussions with your W while you're deployed. Stay focused on your soldiers and your mission!

I suspect that once the various Cdr's open their e-mail tomorrow morning that several things will happen:

1 - Your W and OM will soon have an office call with at least their BN Cdr... possibly the Bde Cdr ... and in some instances, if the CG reserves the right, they might even have to talk to the CG of their installaion. I know that in Afghanistan that the CG reserves the right to prosecute Officers for misconduct... probably the same thing here in Iraq, but I haven't checked...

2 - Both Cdrs will appoint an investigating officer to conduct an Article 32 investigation based on your exposure letter.

3 - Your W and the OM will be questioned under oath. If they lie under oath, (this is what usually gets adulterers), then their career is finished. I suspect that they will most likely lie since you said that there was already an investigation... If during the course of the investigation it is determined that either one of them lied, then their careers are finished. (Do you happen to have e-mail discussions between your W and you where you are discussing the A? If so, send a copy to both Cdrs!)

4 - As a minimum, even if the investigation doesn't find any "conclusive" proof, they most likely will receive a General Officer Letter of Reprimand which will follow them around for the rest of their "career".

You are doing the right thing here... don't worry about your W's "career"... she's the one that ended her Army career... not you! Same with the OM. He knew the risks and your actions have nothing to do with the outcome of his career. (Personally, I hope he gets kicked out with 19.5 years in and zipo for a retirement!)

I have no words for a "man", much less a brother officer that would fool around with a deployed soldier's wife... He is not fit to wear the same uniform that you and other great Americans are wearing!

Semper Fi,

RIF

RIF you ROCK

RIFROCKS

Rif is right. You may decide to forgive her and reconcile at some point, but when she contacts you, And goes ballistic. Let her fume, let her rail. The whole point is, when she here's from command on this, It will be like a 100,000 watt light bulb on the affair. It is important that "someone else" confronts her on this. When she has brass holding a mirror up to her. She will see the light. Not about her staying with you, about her conduct. At some point when the hammer comes down, she will call and explode. Let her just blow. When she is finished. Tell her one thing in a very calm voice. "You have broken two of the most important vows you can make in life. The first is when you broke your marriage vow to me, the second is when you broke the faith with a fellow soldier. You are not fit to command let alone serve in the army". I hope you continue to seek advice and support from the others here. I believe it can help you heal and maybe even restore your marriage.

Jeff,

You said Well, at least she got something right in all of this.

There is a famous saying that you really need to take on board in your mind.

Despite all of her yelling and screaming, you need to realize she is still attached to you at least a little. Exposure almost AWLWAYS brings the reaction you are seeing, and when her CO and people in the command chain get ahold of he and OM, then there really will be screaming and there should be. You are taking away crack from an addict and they don't like you messing with their addiction.

Since this happened before in OCS, I am betting the ARmy will not be very "sensitve" to their positions on this as being just friends. Further, if you have emails detailing what she has told you and said to you, keep them and make them available to the chain of command.

I would again like to suggest that you see the chaplain on your post. You will probably need a real person to talk to and talk out many things.

Hang in there, the war has just begun and this is just the first battle. Focus on yourself and your job right now.

God Bless,

JL

This is great info on the fallout of exposing in the army.
This is my 'what I've learned today' post, and will tuck this away for future reference.

Good luck to you Jeff, you are in very good hands here!
Take care of you, and yes, thank you for your service in the army.

And take note ...... you are in no way responsible for your WW's choice to have an A.
She decided to let someone else meet her needs, and allowed it to progress one step further, then another, and then another.....

Well she wrote me again, accusing me of threatening her, and being use under-handed sneaky attack-mode tactics with her family and friends. She says they have rallied to her support over all of this, and encouraged her to file for divorce immediately, and that her mother fears that I might physically harm her. (Absolutely ludicrous, I've never been a violent person in any regard. She says I told them a half-story and that once they heard what she had to say they would never be on my side.

She finished with: "At least you have made this all easier for me, cuz there is definitely no way we are going to work it out now, and I will be hard put trying to regret not being married to someone who seems to have completely jumped off the deep end of crazy. "

If there is another half to this story, I simply don't know it. I didn't lie or tell any half-truths to her family or friends.

She also sent: "I will send you those t-shirts tomorrow if you still need them. I'm doing this because you are deployed and your parents do not have access to them. Don't take this as some sort of sign that we are all going to be peachy after all of this"

I replied with: "Thank you for sending the t-shirts. I'm sorry you feel like me telling the entire truth about what I know is under-handed. I haven't lied about anything, and have tried to be fully open and honest with you and everyone else involved, for the sake of our marriage and my own integrity. "

yeah, I heard that spew too about half-truths.... wayward spew. Don't let it get to you.

Right, and you're going to physically harm her from how many miles away?

Ludicrous of her.

This is her private A world blowing up.

I wouldn't even respond to her accusations. I would have left it at thank you for the shirts and completely ignored the rest. That would have left her fuming to not get any kind of rise out of you.

If you think that's bad, just wait until tomorrow. She's going to be livid.

Good Morning Jeff!

Everything she said in her e-mail(s) is just smoke and mirrors... she's lashing out at you because she knows her little fantasy is about to burst.

Your reply was good. It would have been better if you'd said:

"Thanks for the T-shrits."


Again, I know it's hard, but try to stay away from ANY relationship discussions. You're not going to sway her at all by trying to reason with her. Just show her kindness and nothing more. Don't get baited into the "Yes I am" - "No you're no" discussions.

Her friend and family MAY be on her side, but for now, they are of no concern to you. Your first priority is exposing the A to their Cdrs. I suspect that your W is in severe damage control mode with her friends and family and is spinning everything in HER favor. Again, don't get into arguments or try to sway her family... they aren't the main effort here...

Later on this evening their Cdr's should be reading your e-mail and that's when the fantasy bubble is going to pop! Sit back and get ready for some more hateful e-mails... Here are a few samples that you MIGHT see:

"Well, you've done it now... my career is finished. I hope you're happy!"


"I'll never forgive you!"


"You just blew your last chance with me!"


"I can't believe that I ever loved you"

...and if she really wants to get really nasty with you, be prepared for some sexual details from her A about how "good" the OM is and how "horrible" you are, blah blah blah blah... it will only be an attempt to "hurt" you. Yes, those comments will hurt, but recognize them for what they are... a poor attempt to lash out at the person that just spoiled her "fun"...

Don't buy into any of her drivle... Like JL said, the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference!

You are doing great here! I would keep snooping and see if you can expose this A to the OM's wife. OM will most likely tell his W that some nut-job is telling lies about him and now it's affecting his job (OM's motive: throw hiw W off the trail that he's been a bad boy, and make himself out to be the victim)

If you can get actual proof (remember those e-mails I asked you about) to OM's wife, I suspect that you will nail the coffin shut on the OM... Career down the tubes, and you'll have another set of "eyes" to keep OM away from your W.

I've got to head to work in a little bit. We're 1.5 hrs behind you here in Iraq so I won't have a chance to get back on until later on this evening... by then, we sould be able to see some smoke from your e-mails.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Her husband is in Afghanistan serving his country, while she is here carrying on an affair. Her commanders will come at her hard and fast. They can't do anything when a civilian cheats on their spouse who is serving over seas. But there will be some major smoke coming out of their ears about a brother officer being cheated on by another officer. After all these soldiers give being in a (s) hole like Afghanistan, to be betrayed by their spouses here, deserves the full weight of the UCMJ coming down on them.

She replied with:
" like how u think that telling my people a very, small portion of our story is telling the whole truth. Like i said, i hope that works out for u. My peopleknow the whole actual truth, not the short version that u tried to 'demonize' me with, and they are all standing behind me.

But i do hope that ur decision to attack me keeps u warm at night"




I'm thinking this the part where I stop replying entirely?

Hi Jeff - I think you should stop replying. Let her stew.

Just my opinion.

Yes, stop replying. Did you read previous posts?

For sure.
Don't reply to her insane criticisms and raving lunacy.
Don't talk relationship talk.

If you do interact with her, DO present your best self. Try to meet her ENs as much as you can. Avoid LBs. As furious as she is, and as addicted to OM as she is, you won't be making any deposits in her LB$... but you can be presenting yourself as an attractive spouse.

Right now she's telling herself every little thing you ever did wrong, plus she's making up a few. And she's telling herself how wonderful OM is and how you've cheated her out of "true looove".

Your job is to avoid giving her more fuel for her insane self-talk. Be an attractive spouse (meet ENs). Avoid LBs. Don't talk relationship talk.

GREAT job on exposure. Did you ever get hold of OM's wife?

If they stand behind her, I will wager it is because of blood. But between themselves they are likely condemning her action. I imagine her "whole actual truth" are embellishments based on a spoiled child's "feelings" and not based in reality. When her commanders hear her "whole actual truth", I think the response she gets will be slightly less supportive. Why? Because they are going to ask her, "did you commit adultery with lt. so and so. Now think hard about your answer, because we have documentary evidence and there will be a full investigation and interrogation. and if you lie your career is over". That is the only part of the "whole truth" they will be interested in.

RIF has provided you with absolutely first rate advice.

Mortarman was a former poster on here He said:


One of his threads is here:

mortarman

He has more to say at the linked thread.


Perhaps RIF will have something to say about IG Corp and the possibility of using that route if Command won't do anything as a result of your exposure to them currently. Keep in mind that if there is no solid proof as it exists, IG will investigate and Command can investigate, if I understand what mortarman has said.

Larry

My understanding is that adultery can't really be proven without sworn statements by the adulterers admitting it, or photographs of them having sex. They can dismiss the phone records as being "just friends" that like to talk a lot.

Sure and you are correct, legally. According to Ex-IG mortarman, the CG can order stuff based on IG investigation which is what he stresses. At least that is what I think he said. Has she ever admitted it to you in an email?

Larry

I'm not sure. When I first confronted her, she only wanted to talk about things on the phone and said she didn't want to ever put things in writing. During her brief moments of wanting to save the marriage, she may have written some things about it. I'd have to read back through all the emails to be sure, and I just don't feel like doing that right now.

My stomach is doing backflips right now, waiting for the other shoe to drop in a few hours.

Hey Jeff,

On my lunch break and thought I'd check in...

By all means, DO NOT REPLY to her e-mail!!! You knew this was coming, and in about 4-5 more hours, the e-mails will really start flying!!! You'll be the worst person walking the face of the earth once her adultery is exposed.

You are correct in that in order to charge someone under Article 134 (Adultery) that they will eiter need a signed confession or photos of the act. That's why I suggested providing your e-mail correspondence between your W and you to the respective Cdrs. I suspect that your W and the OM both are both "smart" enough to NOT correspond with each other on a government computer, but you never know.

If the Cmdr starts the Article 32 investigation, the investigating officer will more than likely "search" your W's computer and the OM's computer. Pretty much standard procedure in an investigation like this. IF they were stupid enough to use their govt. computer for their little "lurve chats", then the invesigation will bear this out.

At a minimum, they will both have been exposed for conduct unbecoming of an officer (a violation of Article 133). They will also most likely be ordered to cease all contact by phone, person, e-mail, etc.... so this will really bust up her affair bubble!

Again, prepare yourself for the angry hateful e-mails, because they will be heading your way in about 4-5 hrs. Don't let these e-mails get you down. You know what to expect... You've got the enemy's order of battle and you know their next move...

I would still highly recommend getting the OM's wife's name and address and expose the A to her ASAP! She will be one of your biggest allies in ensuring NC. (Think about it, SHE's the one that's going to be penalized if dear hubby gets himself kicked out of the Army with 19.5 years and no retirement!!!)

...a nice thought for OM, but sad for his family... but hey, I have no compassion for a brother "officer" that would mess around with another soldier's wife while he's deloyed, so if that's the price OM has to pay, then so be it. (please, no RIF you're just mean comments!)

Semper Fi,

RIF

I have no way to get the OM wife's address. I have her name, I know they're at Fort Sill (so on post or in Lawton, OK) but I can't get anything better than that. I've even tried some of "people search" web sites where I paid to do a thorough search. The only way I'm going to get a hold of her is if I can find someone @ Fort Sill that knows her, or can find her.

Her friend that I talked to at length 2 nights ago un-friended me on facebook without warning or correspondence. This is after we discussed everything and she agreed to talk to my wife to get her side. I'm now seriously wondering what my WW is telling people I've done.

Hey Jeff - Get your Cdr to give the Ft. Sill Garrison Cdr a call... I'm pretty sure that they can find an address...

Semper Fi,

RIF

It doesn't seem likely that the command would have any interest in notifying the spouse of what is going on. Their interest is in military personnel. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Hi Jeff,

Have you talked with your commander? If not, then I would and ask for his help.

A deployed soldier needs to be 100% mission focused and this is definitely affecting you... so it is a command "problem" that 99.99% of the commanders that I know would step in and help.

Mission readiness includes both the soldier and the spouse (even if the couple is dual military)...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I have no company commander back at Fort Polk (went to SFAS) and I'm the XO. My BN commander hasn't responded to my emails or calls for a couple months now. My supervisor here is fully aware of the situation, but he's an Air Force LTC. I'm not sure he can just call up the garrison commander at Fort Sill and get an address...

Don't guess if your boss can call, ask him to call.

Don't respond to WW rants.

Good job.

Well the boss and I are both waiting to see how everyone in their CoC responds to the email in the next few hours... I'm sure he wouldn't want to take any action until we see what they all do.

Hi Jeff,

Please use the following contact information and call/e-mail the Ft. Polk IG now!!!

Explian your situation to them and ask them to please represent you to the Commanding General since you are part of HIS command, even though you are deployed. Let them know that you've tried to go thorugh your C-of-C, but haven't been able to contact your Company Cdr, or BN Cdr... Also CC your downrange Cdr/OIC in the contact e-mail.

Be as specific as you can with who, what, when, and where... again, this is a MISSION READINESS issue and they WILL take this seriously.

I suspect that you will get some quick results!

Semper Fi,

RIF



Inspector General

1878 15th Street, Bldg 1943

Fort Polk, LA 71459
To contact us:
Phone: (337) 531-2100/7878

DSN: 863-2100/7878

Fax: (337) 531-4695

E-mail: polk.ig@conus.army.mil
Mission:
Department of the Army IG

800-752-9747

Well I emailed my BDE commander, who is a great guy from what I know of him. He knows me personally. So I'll give him a chance to do what needs to be done as far as representing me. My BN commander will no doubt go nuts that I bypassed him, as he has in the past when he's ignored me for weeks and I've gone above him.

Hey Jeff,

Good for you! Hopefully your Bde Cdr can help apply some pressure...

Give your C-of-C (Bde Cdr) time to work this for you... if you don't get any action, then CC him on your e-mail to the IG.

Semper fi,

RIF

There are PI's or information websites (intellius.com) that can track down this information and much more for about $150 or less. I definitely would not give up so easy on finding OMW. She can be the biggest ally at ending the affair.

Also, what are the rules about taping conversations in the military? If she would never put anything in writing, can you get her to admit it on the phone and use that as evidence? I know you are in Afghanistan where there aren't Radio Shack's readily available, but I'm sure you could figure out something, like recording on speaker or having someone back home send you a recorder.

I got a response from my BN commander. Apparently he's been sending emails for a while and I haven't been receiving them. He wants the actual phone bills as evidence (I sent them condensed phone logs that I created.) He also said that a sworn statement by me explaining what my wife said about the affair would go far when combined with the phone bills.

Hey Jeff - It's 0900 at Ft. Sill... any vile e-mail mssgs yet?

Remember, you EXPECT these e-mails, so please try not to let them get to you... stick with your original OPORD and don't let her "FRAGOs" rattle you.

Hopefully your Bde Cdr will get back with you quickly. I'd give him at least a day or so to work on it, then I'd send him another e-mail if you haven't heard back from him to let him know that due to the seriousness of the situation, and the timely intervention needed to save your marriage, that you are going to the IG. (You can use the Ft. Polk IG, or the IG there in A-Stan...either one should be able to help you)

Hiring a PI is also another good idea, though it might be hard for him to gain access to the base... I'd think this through before hiring one. My concern would be if the PI is caught snooping around and the MP's learn that you've hired him, it may negatively impact your case. A PI is going to stick out like a sore thumb, especially if he's hanging around office building/barracks/BOQs/or housing areas.

Semper Fi,

RIF

PS - Here's the "mission statement" for the IG at Ft. Polk:

Hoooah!!!

It seems like they intend to get their ducks in a row before they call anyone onto the carpet. So the angry emails may take a few days. In the meantime I've managed to find another LT at Fort Sill that's willing to help me track down the OMW.

Just wanted to say I'm impressed with what an awesome job you're doing with exposure and getting everything rolling.

Your WW is going to have an absolute duck when all of this hits the fan. Expect that, don't let it ruffle you. Stick to your plan (meet ENs, avoid LBs, no relationship talk, full exposure).

You are doing unbelievably well.

Jeff/RIF

Is my possible understanding of mortarman's posts that from his perspective as an Ex-IG, adultery affects combat readiness. So it is the business of IG to get involved.

Is that right?

Larry

HiJeff,


Glad that you've found an ally to help you find the OM's wife! Keep pressing, then expose with everything you've got as quickly as you can... If OM suspects (which he probably does by now) He's already told a ton of lies to his wife and let her know to "expect" a psyco LT to send her an e-mail or letter or phone call... That's why you've got to give the OM's W all the evidence you have.

By any chance is the OM an instructor at Ft. Sill, and your W a student???

If so, this would be a HUGE no-no! There are clear orders against instructor/student relationships at ALL military schools (Basic Training, AIT, OBC, CCC, ILE, etc)... so if OM is an instructor, and your wife is a student, the command will most likely go for a violation of Article 92... since it's MUCH easier to prove than Article 134.

Here are the maximum punishments for Article 92 - Failure to Obey a Lawful Order:

Maximum punishment.

(1) Violation or failure to obey lawful general order or regulation. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.

(2) Violation of failure to obey other lawful order. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.

I do believe that a DD & a BCD carry a federal felony status with it so it will definitely affect their life AFTER their "great" military careers...

Most likely they would get an Other Than Honorable discharge, which isn't as damaging, but still limits some of the benifits that they can claim.

That's probably why they're wanting to get their "ducks in a row"... then they'll come down on them both with both boots!



Semper Fi,

RIF

Hi Larry,



Exactly! see my quote above of the IG's Mission Statement from the Ft. Polk IG...

It's always best to use the C-of-C first... then if you don't get satisfaction from them, you go to the IG. Most Commanders that I know/knew would be DEATH on a situation like this...

If Jeff's C-of-C doesn't handle this quickly, then he can still go to the IG...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF. I read your IG mission statement. I have read the same words at other posts during research. I wanted to make sure I understand exactly how IG gets involved and why.

I was in for three years as an EM in a specialized unit. So I have some concept of how things work in the Army. But not nearly as much as you guys.

If my understanding is correct, the IG reports directly to the CG, who then directs lower command to do whatever CG wants them to do and they say, "Yes Sir (or ma'am) and do it.

One military forum post I saw and can't find again, said something about the direct report not being happy the CG directive landed on his desk and he tried to pull something later on with a review. In that case, the next report on up the ladder "Corrected" the review and sent it back down to be written again. Military review language is beyond my ability to interpret.

Larry

BN commander asked for any emails containing admissions, but there are none. She was very careful not to put anything in writing, and in several emails asked me to call her because she wanted to discuss things that she wasn't willing to put in writing.

Send these e-mails even if they don't have any reference to the OM or an affair...they will still show a PATTERN.

Also, send the e-mails where she was blasting you and telling you about "informing" her family and friends and how "they all support her"...

These e-mails can be used by the Article 32 investigating officer to come up with questions to ask your W and the OM. Like I said before, most soldiers don't get in "trouble" for adultery... they get in trouble for lying on a sworn statement during the investigation.

Oh, you never did say if OM is an instructor an if your W is a student... I thin that will make a HUGE difference in how the command handles this.

Also, if you haven't done it yet, fill out a DA Form 2823 (Sworn Statement) and have it signed by your commander... then send that to your BN Cdr... Be as specific as you can (names, dates, times, places, conversations, etc) Again, this will help the investigating officer come up with questions to ask OM and W...

Then THEY will have to choose to either lie on their sworn statements, or admit their guilt... most likely they will lie... but again, your goal is to break up the A, not destroy them (even though this, may in fact, ruin their careers)


Semper Fi,

RIF

You can't tape the conversations?

I agree, anytime she asks to call you for something she can't put in writing, that should be your key to taping the conversation if allowed by law.

No, it was not a teacher student relationship.

And I feel very very wary of forwarding her personal attacks against me to my commander.

Why?

A courageous LT has the evidence and a letter from me to the OMW in hand now. He'll be hand delivering it to her home later today. The support I've gotten from so many places to pull this together has been amazing.

Because I don't see how they can benefit the investigation at all, and they're very personal and hurtful.

RIF told you how any email that references the "alledged" adultery can be helpful. If you are going to expose, don't hold back. Now you don't have to forward every email, but I would certainly forward the ones that have veiled references between her and OM's relationship.

As for the hurtful aspect of the emails, I know it's easy to say and hard to do, but don't let her WORDS hurt you. Yes, you can certainly be hurt by her ACTIONS, but try not to listen to the WORDS of a floundering ADDICT because they don't mean what they are saying. She is just using her words to try and manipulate you into allowing her continued access to her DRUG. It got to a point where I would just laugh at what my WW said because I thought it was so pathetic.

Well, the chains of command have been notified, and the wife will be notified soon. All within 8 hours of each other. Except for exposing all of this when I first discovered it, I don't think the truth gets any more "tsunami"-like than this.

Once the wife knows, she will call hubby, and he will call your wife, and she will communicate with YOU. Be prepared for her wrath.

I'm not answering the phone. Or replying to emails.

Good. Just stick with us.

Brace yourself.

What I would advise you to do in the emotionally traumatic few weeks of post-exposure you are about to endure, is to start a thread asking others what their WW's said and did immediately after exposure. That way your mind can better compartmentalize and rationalize what she is saying. It won't hurt you as much when she says the things she is going to say when you already know she is following the exact same script as all other WWs. That way you know it is the ADDICTION causing her to say these things, and it's not you. You need to understand, all that she says has NOTHING to do with you and your marriage and has everything to do with an ADDICTION. Try to do things for yourself and lean on some buddies during this time because she is going to do everything she can to hurt you. Don't let her. Breathe deep, relax, and don't let her suck you in to any arguments or relationship talks.

Also, when you said "the wife" will be notified, did you mean OMW or your WW? OMW is a still a key exposure target that will help keep OM from breaking a cease and desist order.

I've already recognized that she's been following the WW script for a while. I've even told her that. She KNOWS that. She's read the various MB articles. But that doesn't make her able to see it herself.

I still have serious doubts that our marriage will ever recover from the [censored] that's about to ensue. But I'll be able to walk away with my head held high, knowing I did the right thing, and fought for my marriage until the end.

Don't think about that now. Just let the exposure take it's course. You have no idea what will happen once your WW is through withdrawal of OM.

I'm sure you've read on here by now... "It is a marathon, not a sprint." Yeah, there's a storm coming. It will be ugly. It will blow over.

Focus on YOUR goal and YOUR actions.
Do not react to WW and her insanity.
Do not judge the success or failure of your actions by what WW does.
Keep your eye on your goal.

Hey Jeff - You're head and shoulders about me in the exposure department! If you've gone back and read any of my old threads (way back in 2002-2005) you'll notice that I never exposed. My "knowledge" of exposure is based on what I've learned here on MB.

I know that it's painful to share these intimate e-mails with your Cdr, but trust me, the investigatng officer will be tasked with coming up with a list of questions, then he will have them checked by the local JAG that's assigned to support the Cdr. The JAG officer will "approve" the questions and add any pertinant questions that might have been left out.

I've conducted two Artcle 32 investigations for Adultery (both of them in Afghanistan, one on my first tour in 2004, and one on my second tour in 2008). I can't tell you how much some e-mails from the BH/BW would have helped me in my investigations... the e-mails from your W will show a PATTERN... that is what the investigating officer is looking for. A PATTERN of behavior that is in violation of Article 134 &/or Article 92.

I was a brand new 2LT assigned to my first overseas duty station when Mrs. RIF had her "first" A. I exposed to her parents and they blamed me... I asked my CO Cdr and BN Cdr what to do and they both told me to divorce her. So I didn't ask them for any more "guidance".

I suspected a 2nd A about a year later... Even confronted the OM (an E-4 in MY unit!!!) and Mrs. RIF.... they both lied to my face. I never brought it to my C-of-C because I was too ashamed and I 'knew' from my first experience that they probably wouldn't help me. This was a different time in the Army, Zero Defects, and many officer's were looking out for themselves... The senior Cdr's that I know and see now are much more in tune with family issues and know how much family issues affect readiness. The fact that you're BN Cdr is helping you is proof of this...

Don't worry about what your Cdr will "think" about you. The biggest "fear" that kept me from exposing Mrs. RIF's second A to my C-of-C was... "If I expose, everyone will KNOW that I'm not enough of a man to keep Mrs. RIF 'satisfied' at home." I'm sure you can think of other "reasons", but honestly, are they worth keeping private if it means that you lose a chance to rebuild your M?

Only you can decide what is right for you... we here on the MB forum will share our life experiences with you and we can coach you on the MB principles based on our own exeperience... but in the end, you must decide what is best for you.

You are in a full blown war for your marriage... use every tool available to you to expose this A and make sure there is no contact between the OM and your W...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I would have lost my mind. Seriously, I don't know how you dealt with that at all.

I think the exposure to the OMW was the most important thing here. It will almost certainly cause him to drop my WW in half a second.

There's no way they'll get convicted of Adultery. There's just no evidence for that. But they could easily be caught lying when asked to explain the circumstances of their relationship and phone calls.

I agree 100%!!!

The first investigation that I did resulted in four senior NCO's each receiving a General Officer Letter of Reprimand. They basically all stuck to the same story throughout the investigation, but there was enough circumstatial evidence to warrant the G.O. letters... None of those NCO's will ever be promoted.

The second investigation involved a LTC and a civilian. This one was a little "strange" because the female civilan accused the LTC of rape. The LTC got scared and "confessed" to consensual sex in a combat zone which was a violation of GO#1. He received a General Officer Letter of Reprimand, and was immediately sent home with an "Atlas" OER. He is now divorced, and retired from the reserves. The civilan female was sent home and I don't know what happend to her.

Your goal in all of this is to expose the A in order to end it. It's only human nature to want the OM to pay dearly for his actions, but I wouldn't worry too much about him.... he's going to have his hands full trying to explain things to his own wife and kids!

I know that the others have warned you, as have I, but I can't stress this enough... Don't take the incoming e-mails from your W to heart!!! Don't reply to any of her e-mails and try to 'defend' yourself. If you reply, you might just say something like "I love you sweetie and I will do whatever it takes to save our marriage" Love - Jeff4187

Do a search on "things WW's say" and "reverse babble" and you'll probably have a pretty good list of things that your W will say to you... You can even make a list and start checking them off as she says them! As for the reverse babble, these are things that you can say that will reinforce your stand for saving the M, and it will confuse her to no end!

As for "loosing my mind" during Mrs. RIF's A's... yep, been there done that and got lots of T-shirts! I didn't have MB or anyone to talk with when I was dealing with her A's, and I told myself that if I ever "got through this" that someday, I would help others... Thats why I stick around here and pop in from time to time.

Mrs. RIF and I have a passionate, loving marriage that I never dreamed we would have way back in 1987... It took lots or hard work, lots or tears, lots or hurt and pain, and the grace of Christ, to rebuild our marriage... so even though you feel like nothing will "ever be the same" again, it can be as long as both of you are willing to work at it.

Exposure is the first step in your rebuilding process... Take things one day at at time and please keep us posted on the exposure process.

It's almost 2300hrs in A-Stan and 2130hrs here in Iraq... I'll be up for a little bit longer, but will check back with you in the morning.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Just throwing this out there Jeff- did she sign up and get a user name and password here? If so I would get with someone- may a mod to have that revoked if they can. Otherwise she will see what you are posting here. Not sure if anyone has said this or not.

Thank you for your service as well and I'm sorry you find yourself here.

Just a point of info here regarding what CW said...

It doesn't matter if she has a password as all the forums can be read by anyone who happens upon the site with the exceptions of the weekend forums and the private pregnancy forum. A P/W is only required to post here.

Mark

Jeff,

Listen to the folks here. Let me also say, that those emails that you don't want to send, are exactly what they will need. Why? YOu are in a combat zone. Your W is in the military and she KNOWS about readiness and combat situations. If she sent you emails ripping your guts out, that does not reflect well on her as a person and even worse on her as an member of the military.

RIF is telling you what MortarMan would tell you. Your goal is not necessarily to get them thrown out of the military although I share RIF's view of what OM is doing and actually what your W has done. Neither of them should be in the military in my humble opinion. However, what she has sent, her requests for you to call because she doesn't want to put it in writing all lead to the conclsion that IF she is willing to rip your guts out in an email, but in willing to put something in writing, it is probably illegal and she is covering her A$$, as well as OM's A$$.

Think about it.

God bless,

JL

PS: Listening to you and RIF is making me feel old. I had the horrible thought yesterday while reading your post. It will be 43 years next month since I was commistioned. I simply cannot be that old. You are doing well Jeff.

Jeff:

A trained investigator will usually conclude that where there is smoke, there is fire. The emails sent to you reflect that something is going on. They have already been investigated once. Why?

Selected emails will assist the investigator to "Style" their report in one of several ways. Keep in mind that the list of questions will include ones calculated to bring out the truth through getting them to contradict themselves.

You are not the investigator. You are emotionally attached to both the emails and your internal emotions. There is not one soldier who doesn't understand what happens at home (or on R&R) with affairs. The investigator needs a sample of those emails to help them with what they do.

And who knows, OMW may decide to blow the whistle on OM. She may be like one situation on here where OMW said something about this is the third time a "Slut" has been chasing my husband and calling me.

JL has said it. Take it to the bank, it will cash.

Larry

The OMW has contacted me. She has my evidence and has started uncovering her own, including another secret phone number my wife has. I don't think she's said anything to her husband.

Oh, that is such good news! Sometimes the other spouse won't believe there is an affair. Hope you told her about MB.

Great news. It is much harder for the waywards to fight battles on two different fronts. With the two of you keeping tabs on them, it will be much more difficult for them to stay in contact without being discovered.

Good news! If any news about this can be good.

Hooah!

Hey JL - I was four years old....

Semper Fi!

RIF

Ditto!

[tj]
Hey, RIF...

[/tj]

Hey Mark!

Jeff - I'll be around all day today, so please let me know how things are going today, especially if you get any e-mails from your W.

I agree with you that having the OM's W on your side is huge and I would expect things to change very quickly (most likely tomorrow our time)...

Semper Fi,

RIF

RIF,



That is sooooooo Wrong on so many levels.

At least I had the good sense to go into the AF.

I will say that getting out was the hardest thing I ever did. It was like leaving family. My father was a career officer and I grew up in the military moving all over the world. I still feel like I have "gone home" when I go on a military base.

JL

Hi Jeff,

Popped in real quick to see how you were making out.
Have only read this last page but it sounds like things are going as they should.

You've done a great job so far, I've read threads where guys twice your age have
waffled back and forth for weeks about exposing. You have integrity, and that is ace.

Adultery has not gotten the better of you, keep this going.
I hope that your realize that you are doing what you vowed to do,
and that is to protect your W.
Right now that happens to be her wayward ways.

Stay strong.

p.s. I'm so impressed with the knowledge and support here, from everyone!

She just sent me an email saying she's sending the divorce paper work, and I can sign it or not, but since I'm intent on making this ugly, I probably won't.

I didn't reply.

Good job not replying.

You aren't the one making it ugly.

You are handling this with courage and class, Jeff. My prayers are with you.

God's Blessings,

Say

It seems like she hasn't figured out what's coming yet. Taking that tsunami a while to cross the Pacific.

You never can tell exactly how she will handle it once it comes. She will be angry and say all of the hateful, predictable things that waywards always say and she will blame you for everything but...will she divorce you or will you be her port in the storm. Hard to tell. You can rest easy in the fact that you have done the right thing though.

God's Blessings,

Say

Hey Jeff,

Very typical... Think about what YOU want... if you don't want to D, then don't sign the papers...

Let her stew for a while and don't even acknlowldge receiving them... stick with "I love you and am willing to fight for our M"...

She still has a long way to go, and I would say that NC hasn't even been started yet... Let the OM's W put pressure on the A, and then let the Command's actions put pressure on the A... She will eventually have to face reality and her head may clear up a bit...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I think she's going to get a lot angrier over the next few days. I just noticed a few missed calls on my cell phone from this morning, she tried to call me before she sent the email. I still don't know if OMW has blown up or left with the kids or what. I won't be signing anything, I'll take any paperwork I get to the SJA, but I don't have to do anything until I get back to the states, and like you said, that's plenty of time for lots of things to happen. I don't even feel like replying to her with "I love you and I'm willing to fight for our marriage" right now because I know it's not going to get through until she starts feeling the consequences of her actions.

Yep - It's just starting and it will get worse before it gets better. ...but you are already expecting that right?

I've seen so many people here on the boards throw out the "D" word, and in the end, they wind up working things out. Not going to say that this will be the case in your situation, but until you redeploy and until a divorce is final... then you shouldn' worry about it.

Having said that, just wanted to let you know again that we here will support you in what ever you decide... You're doing great and I would hold off on making any "big" decisions for a while...

Let the exposure work its way through and then give your W some time with NC from the OM.

Did you think about sending any of the 'hurtful' e-mails to your BN Cdr?

Semper Fi,

RIF

Yeah, I sent the most recent chain of emails in which I explain that I can't allow her to continue the affair, and say that I'm sorry I waited 3 weeks to come to this conclusion. She comes back saying I'm crazy, she wants a divorce, I'm trying to demonize her to her friends and family but "we know the truth about what happened here." It was about 12 emails exchanged, her being angry, me being calm and loving.

Is the claims about this only being part of the story, or a half truth about what's happened common? Because I feel like if there's another half, I'm not aware of it.

Also I just don't see her forgiving me for betraying her by turning her into her chain of command. Ever.

Hey Jeff - This is one thing that just about EVERY WS does... they re-write the history of the M. Mrs. RIF did it, and every WS that I've seen on here has done it. The WS HAS to re-write the M in order to rationalize their actions... it helps them justify the A because things were so "rotten" in the M.

Don't worry about what she's told her family or friends... the truth will eventually come out. I suspect that she's just trying to bait you into an argument so she can "justify" her anger at you... Please don't fall for it...

Be loving and kind, but don't compromise your position of fighting for the M... If family or friends try to contact you, be wary of their motives... they may be siding with your W for now. If they are not fighting FOR the M, then they are against it, and you should have nothing to do with them.

If you have to vent, then please vent here to us, and NOT to your wife, "well meaning" friends (they may report directly back to your W), or "well meaning" family... keep your mssg consistant. "I'm willing to do whatever it takes to fight for our M."

Semper Fi,

RIF

Wow, it looks like it's all starting to impact.

It started off with "Are you going to ignore me while you do all this crazy stuff?" Then accusing me of hacking into email accounts to get the address for the OMW. Then lots of "you're just making my life better" and "you're really making this decision easy." And "how ugly do you plan to make this?" Then threatened to out me as a homosexual. Then threatened to sue me for slander, since I have no proof to back any of this up. Said she would never go to counseling with me, or ever see me again. And the big finisher "I'll never speak to you again if you go through with this."

All my responses were positive, and fair. Lots of "I'm sorry you feel that way, but hopefully you'll see in time that I only have the best interest of our marriage at heart."

I find the threats to "out" me especially comical given the recent attitudes towards Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

Sent the whole conversation up to my BN commander. Let no one ever say I wasn't completely honest and open throughout this.

I am somewhat concerned that I haven't heard anything back from OMW.

In your earlier post, you said that you didn't think she would ever forgive you for betraying her and going to her chain of command with this. First of all, she betrayed you, not the other way around. I'm sure if the roles were reversed, she would have done the same to you, and deep down, she knows that, but she'll never let it on to you...at least while she's still active in the affair. You see, my WW was absolutely furious that I exposed to her employer. She said she'd never forgive me for trying to ruin her career. I told her she was the one having an affair with a coworker, and if her career was going to be ruined, it was because of that, not my actions. She knew that deep down inside, and once there was NC w/ OM, she admitted she understood it, and it was water under the bridge. Trust me, if your WW goes complete NC w/ OM as a result of your exposure, I'd give you about an 80% chance of recovering your marriage. Seriously, if the affair partner is removed from the situation, and there is no one else to meet your wife's needs, she will seek you out to meet them again, and if you make enough love bank deposits, the love busters (exposure) will get outweighed. She's not going to stop calling you. I bet she calls you every day to spew venom at you. The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. Your WW still obviously loves you, but is too caught up in the addiction of her affair. If she was wanting to try and work it out with you just a week ago, I'm pretty confident that she will IF OM is COMPLETELY out of the picture for good and there is no more contact from here on out. Just let exposure do it's work and minimize love busters at this time. Sit back, pull up a chair, and just watch the fireworks for now.

Edit: Why the name change?

I changed my display name for discretion purposes.

The above comments were in an online chat, not over the phone. I haven't been answering the phone when she calls. I was extremely hesitant to even reply to her chats, and I told her I didn't think we should talk right now, but she should know that I love her and I'm fighting for our marriage. She continued to spew venom, I continued to be positive and say I was fighting for the marriage.

She sent me an email explaining how easy the divorce would be for her, and how I couldn't stop her, and by the way, she wants "her" dog. He was a dog that we bought together, and he lived with us for 1 years. Then with my parents for 6 months, then her for 6 months, then me for 6 months, and now my parents for 6 months. All his moving around has been because of both of us being in the Army and in training or deployed.

She knows how much I love that dog, and how much he loves me. I used to always tell her when we were having to live apart (and she couldn't have him at her apartment) that he was the only thing that kept me sane without her there. Very mean to threaten our dog.

Hi Gerka, you are doing great! Don't worry about getting her forgiveness. If she ends her affair and gets into recovery, she will forgive you. If she doesn't, then it won't matter anyway. The bigger issue is if YOU can forgive her for her affair some day.

Hang in there!

She's pulling out all the stops, isn't she? Tossing out the D threats, "never forgiving you", saying she'll take the dog.

I'd say this is a superbly effective exposure! She is angry because she's feeling the pressure.

You're in a great position. You have the ability to ignore the D papers (if you even get D papers) while she withdraws from OM.

The tough thing will be meeting her ENs while you guys are so far apart, but it can certainly be done. I've seen some surprisingly effective long distance Plan As.

I imagine they can get the phone records from that second number. When they do, the jig is up 20 calls a day and 400 text messages to another woman's husband. This will be a big surprise for her when the army asks "why so many texts and calls to a married man? Just what were your conversations about?"

I don't think an Army officer in the course of an investigation has the ability to subpoena phone records. They may, however, be able to order the suspect to surrender the phone records. RIF could probably clear that up.

Hi Gerkaguards,



Bingo!!!

I suspect that she knows just how serious this all is by now, and to make matters worse, she knows that the OM's W will put a VERY short leash on the OM, thus ending her "perfect" little world!!!

THAT is why she is so angry with you...

As for hearing back from the OM's W... I wouldn't worry too much about that. Your mission was accomplished by letting her know about the affair... if she has questions, she may contact you, but it doesn't have any bearing on what you are or are not going to do.

Oh, and as for the dog, I completely understand how this would upset you.... but remember, she's going to use ANYTHING that she can to try and get you to engage here in angry outbursts or hateful speech in order to "justify" her actions. Don't fall for it!!!

Just wait until she's called into her Commander's office and questioned by the investigating officer... I suspect that things will get VERY serious then!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Well, a little bit of research seems to suggest that an investigating officer has the weight of the US government behind him, and if the situation points in the direction of phone calls or emails, they can subpoena all of that. I guess you learn something new every day.

So she's going to be forced to choose:
a) Try to lie through everything. Get caught in a lie, get a dishonorable discharge.
b) Admit to everything. Take your lumps, but probably not a dishonorable discharge.

The fact that she knew that the message to OMW was hand delivered, and other details of what I wrote to OMW suggests that the OM contacted my WW after the OMW had confronted him. So it doesn't seem that he's on a "short leash." So what does that mean? Has he convinced her to do nothing? That it's all a lie? Did she leave with the kids?

Don't worry about what is going on with her. It would be nice if she followed the MB plan, but the important thing is that she was notified. Sometimes the cheater talks a good story and tries to worm their way out of things, but know that the OM's wife will be watching him.

And just accept that he has contacted your wife, they always do. Chances are excellent that he will dump your wife and then she will wake up. And don't worry about being second choice - you just want the affair ended and no contact, however it happens.

Just wanted to say great job on exposure - fasten your seat belt for the turbelence.

She will eventually have to face the music. In truth, the investigation will probably help your marriage. There will be a report written up for her file. Every CO or change of duty station will expose it. The only way for her to possibly counter the negative (which is a career killer) is to attend counseling and restore the marriage. To basically be able to say "Yeah we had our problems but we got through it and have a strong marriage now. Otherwise she will be looked at by her CO as someone that cannot be counted on when the chips are down or when things get tough. Her fitness reports will always be looked at with a jaundiced eye.

Gerka

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I had my ex cheat on me while I was deployed and I had no clue. I don't think I could have functioned at all if I had known. Actually, I know I wouldn't have been able to.

I think what you're doing is all in line with what you should be doing.

I do offer you this thought, though: The military can create circumstances which I feel force some people to marry prematurely when the relationship would have failed otherwise. It's the nature of the beast. An assignment comes to a close and the local girl has to either be dumped, married, move with you, or settle for a long distance thing.

This keeps some people together that shouldn't be together at all. I say this as a man who married a woman due to the cirucumstances I faced and I married when I should have followed my gut when I dumped her.

You're very young. What would I do if I could go back in time?

I would have left her early, deployed my butt off, bucked up my career credentials with combat assignments and deployments, and forgotten about women until I became a Major.

You WILL get over your wife if you divorce. It's not the end of the world, especially since you don't have kids together.

But that's a bridge you'll have to decide for yourself once you end the affair. You'll never forgive yourself for not doing everything in your power to end the affair regardless of whether or not you save your marriage.

The threat of career consequences will likely kill this on the OM's end. He'll drop your WW like a hot potato with pressure from his W and COC.

I look back at all the time I wasted as an Lt and so wish I could go back in time, forget about women for 6 years or so, and simply concentrate on my flying career. I'd be well on my way to LtCol right now, would have the maturity to get into a mature relationship with a woman and not an overgrown teen, and be in a better place.

BUT, I do get to see my kids often and I have met and am going to marry a great woman.

So the long story short: There is life after divorce. You have no kids with this woman. Count your blessings if you rid yourself of her. Otherwise, time will eat at you that she "settled for you."

Best of luck.

Hi Gerkaguards! I've been following your thread. You're doing great!


There is always the "Oh chit! We've been caught!" message...followed by let's try to get our stories straight.

My guess would be that OM has convinced his wife that he might lose his job and she has decided not to help make that happen.

Doesn't mean she won't be watching him like a hawk from now on.

My best guess, based on what you've told us, and previous experience as an investigating officer is this:

1 - No contact order to OM and W
2 - Investigation will show inappropriate behavior, but not adultery.
3 - Investigation will, at a minimum, show a violation of Article 92.

Punishment:

OM will be forced to retire, or if not, will never make another promotion. Oh, and he will at a minimum receive a General Officer Letter of Reprimand (filed in his permanent file)

Wife will receive a General Officer Letter of Reprimand. Her letter may be filed locally, which means that it will be removed when she changes duty stations... or it may be filed permanently, which will, in effect, end her career.

If the Command really want's to make an "example" of them, they may also give them a Field Grade Article 15 (on top of the GOLOR)... they can take up to one (1) months pay and 60 days restriction and 45 days extra duty... I've never seen an officer receive an Article 15 in all my 25 years in the military... but it can be done.

Now, they will be given an option of requesting a court-martial instead of the Article 15... if only they were dumb enough to do that! I also think that they could be administratively discharged "for the good of the service" and if this happened, it would most likely be "Under Other than Honorable" conditions... an OTH isn't as bad as a BCD or the worst, a Dishonorable Discharge...

What I've told you might not be 100% accurate, so if you're really interested, go talk with one of the JAG officers at your FOB/Base...

Keep your head up and don't fall for her "tricks"!!!

Semper Fi,

RIF

And RIF, what if my wife is in a career field that requires a TS\SCI clearance... and she doesn't have it yet?

She can kiss the TS/SCI goodbye!!! It won't happen now.

Semper Fi,

RIF

I think it would definitely effect getting a TS. They look for these kind of character flaws. I mean if you can't keep your vows, how could you be trusted to keep a secret.

I'm just curious about your wife. You have said that she always wanted this career. But I'm wondering if she is really cut out for it.

I'm a lifelong Navy civilian. The Navy has a policy of zero tolerance for drugs. We all know that. But over my career I've seen several good workers fired for using drugs. Everyone is always shocked and sad.

One might think that smoking a little pot could be fun. But knowing about the zero tolerance policy, MOST people wanting a career refrain from it. It is what comes with the job.

Your wife is so early in her career and already she has shown that she is not willing to obey the rules. And she is furious with her deployed betrayed husband on top of everything!

YIKES!!!!!!

Hey Gurka - Look back at some of my earlier posts to you... Remember, I told you that the OM would try and convince his W that some "crazy LT" was going to contact her...

You have the battle plan for the enemy and he's following it to the letter! Like the others said, don't worry about this. Your main goal here was to expose the A to the OM's wife... that's done. You may not see "immediate" results but I'd bet my next paycheck that OM's W is snooping up a storm now!

One other thing, try to NOT worry about things that you have no control over. You can't control what the OM's W does. I know from personal experience, that what you are most likely doing is projecting your thoughts to others - "If I were the OM's W, and I'd gotten a letter from Gurka, I'd do ___." Now, when "___" doesn't happen, you start questioning your actions and your reasons.... Don't fall for this!

Your actions are 100% right on target. Don't doubt your actions one bit! Your W is going to do everything that she can to try and make you doubt what you are doing. Stay focused and stay away from the "what if" questions that pop into your mind.

Semper Fi,

RI

That's good advice RIF. I've definitely been geeking out a little bit over not hearing back from the OMW. But her reaction doesn't determine whether my reaction was right or wrong. After all, her reaction might be delayed by 3 weeks as well.

She is the one that proved out your wife's "other" phone. Some "crazy" Lt. didn't just invent that phone number, right? She may want to protect her husbands job and income. If you are on the same phone account, I think that that other phone is proof enough for everything.

Hey Gurka,

You are doing MUCH, MUCH better than I did when I found out abou Mrs. RIF's "first" affair!!!

Nothing wrong with "geeking out"... just don't do it to your W... to her, you're Mr. Cool with a single message! "I love you and I will do everything within my power to save OUR marriage." You are a broken record to all of her communications (chat/e-mail/phone/carrier pigeon/etc)

As you're finding out, this isn't easy stuff, but whether you think so or not, you're doing a super job!

Semper Fi,

RIF

DITTO

EXCELLENT point Ouch!!!

It's sad that in this situation, that the OM's wife is REALLY going to get the short end of the stick because of her H's selfish decisions... At least she now knows what kind of "man" her H is...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I don't know, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. Military stay at home wives are very well taken care of in the event of divorce. They get a huge chunk of their husband's paycheck, child support, a piece of his retirement, etc. But I suppose there's also the "what would mom and dad think" factor.

When you guys talk about exposing to the OM's parents, how the heck do you find out who they are?

She may be having her own affair.
When H and I met with OW's H for the purpose of exposing the affair, and so that my H could apologize man to man, we found out that OW's H already knew about it.

NOT the response I expected.
We both think he was using her adultery(s) to justify his own.

But, ain't my business.

Then don't think of it. Can she get a huge chunk of his retirement if he got dishonorably discharged and lost it? She has her children's financial welfare and house payments to worry about. Saving your marriage is not her top priority.


Oh, you spying novice. I found my OM's parents at intellius.com. I knew he was from NH, so when I did an intellius FREE search on him, a couple of names of relatives popped up. Then I took those names and did a white pages search in NH for the relative. Sure enough, I got a hold of his dad on the first try, and I paid nothing. $50-100 at intellius.com will get you whatever you need to know about the guy, relatives names and numbers, old addresses, etc.

Hi Gerkaguards,

I have been following this morning and I must say you are doing amazingly well. I wish I had had the strength to do all you are doing when it was my turn and my WW started her antics while I was deployed.

I am a Navy Officer Intel type and have been around for about 22 years in the TS/SCI world. A lot of your wife's clearance issues are unclear. If they have already completed her investigation before all this came out but it is awating adjudication, she prob will get her clearance.

If they have not, then this may affect it unless she loses OM, and "testifies" to the SSO that it is over and she is returning to her husband and expresses remorse that she made such a horrible mistake.

Once charged or investigated she will be expected to "self-report" to the SSO of what has happened. She will have to show how she has made changes to mitigate the situation. If there is a judgement or LOR, it will be reported for her, so she better race to the SSO herself to beat the report.

Bottom line, unless she ends it with OM she will lose, or not get, her clearance, point in your favor.

The biggest concern with these clearances are that people have something they are ashamed of and could be blackmailed into doing things to keep the secret private.

If they kicked out every intel person that was cheating on their spouse they would kick out about half the community I am sorry to say. It is why the divorce rate in the intel community is so very high.

SWW

Only "legal" way that I can think of is to hire a PI...

Even if you knew someone in personnel at Ft. Sill and could get a peak at OM's DD Form 93, it would be illegal to use the information...

I think that your exposure to the C-of-C and OM's W will end the A... if you could find the OM's parents, and/or OM's W's parents, that would be a bonus, but I don't think it's critical in your situation.

Semper Fi,

RIF

The military psychologist I spoke to actually referenced this. He said that people with trust issues usually gravitate towards intelligence fields, and people with trust issues are far more likely to have affairs.

I think the fact that this is hitting both of them before they've even completed their initial training isn't going to be looked upon favorably. She doesn't have her clearance yet.

Even though she may be well cared for, she surely would not be as well off financially as she is right now, nor will her children, who will have to go into daycare so she can get a job.

I would bet that she wants to save her M, and that she is afraid her H will not want to if she helps end his career.

Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll walk you through the process of finding his parents.

1) First, go to Intellius.com. Type in his name and where he lives. Let's say his name is John Schmidt and he lives in Missouri (I just made this up). This is what the FREE search would come back with. You can then find the names of his relatives.

Intellius Search

2) If you need to go further because you don't know where he's from, just click on the "View Details" button and it will bring you to a pay page.

3) A "People Search Report" costs only $0.95 and gives you: Full Name, Address, Age & DOB, Phone Number, Relatives, Address, History, Avg. Income, & Home Value. See the sample below:

People Search Report

4) A "24 Hour Pass" for $14.95 will give you that access to anyone for 24 hours, including his relatives.

5) A "Background Report" for $39.95 will give you everything in the "People Search Report" plus Criminal Check, Lawsuits, Bankrupcies, Judgments, Marriages, Divorces, Liens, Aliases, Death Records, and Neighbors. Example below:

Background Report

If she is still in training she is in a lot of trouble, clearance wise. The only hope she has for keeping her clearance is to break it off with the OM, and go do a self-report to the SSO (Special Security Officer) and tell them the truth about everything.

Then she will have to demonstrate her remorse and show what actions she is taking to fix the problem. The only satisfactory action for someone in a training status is to patch things up with her Husband.

If she had had her clearance for some time it would be different, but if I were the SSO i would pull her clearance or recommend dissaproval. It's too early in the game for these types of shenanigans, and most SSO's prob aren't going to risk a judgement call and being wrong on a newbie like your WW.

I think an additional reson D is so high in the Intel world is that we can't talk about substantive issues about our jobs to our spouses that aren't cleared. So people seek out others in the community to talk to and, then, well you know...

If she continues in this field, she is going to have a lot of unaccounted for time and access to sytems that you will never be given access to. Not saying that's a deal breaker by any stretch (I and many I know had the same type of constraints and did not have an A) but it is something to be aware of and consider.

But these are really ancillary issues compared to the exposing, Plan A advice you are getting. This involves your WW, over whom you currently have little to no influence. Be ready for the fury over exposure like people have been telling you; it's coming brother. But, like everyone has been saying, brush it off like water off a ducks back. Stay mission focused in your current job as best you can, this other stuff will all sort itself out. Everything is going to be alright.


SWW

That is interesting.

I know two people who are in the intelligence field. And both of them are serial cheaters.

I found him, had to look him up in his previous state, it's not up to date with his newest address. I know his father has the same name as him. But Intellius doesn't seem to give email addresses or anything does it? Sending an actual letter from Afghanistan doesn't seem very timely.

Good work Gerka. Like the name change.

Why not write it, sign it, scan it, send it PDF to a friend and have them overnite it to them?

SWW

Have you tried Pipl.com ?

Pipl.com

She doesn't even START training for another 2 months. Her class date was that far out.

What you say about the only way for her to make it right is to patch things up with her husband.... That doesn't leave me in a very good place. Who wants someone to be forced to be with them?

That may be why she stays with you now, but it doesn't mean it is the reason she is with you in 3 years when she may be in love with you again. She doesn't want to be with you right now. Duh. You know that. Let's see if she wants to be with you 6 months after OM is out of the picture. Don't let it bruise your ego. Instead, feel good about how you were there fighting for her in bad times. You weren't at home to meet her ENs. Someone else was. She wasn't properly enforcing boundaries to protect her marriage. It happens all the time. That in no way is a reflection of you, but rather a reflection of her poor choices lately. Time can heal all wounds.

How about calling OM's parents or having a friend back home call them, tell them what is going on, and then ask for their email to send them the proof or just have the friend mail it. Remember, where there is a will, there is a way.

Edit: And yes, intellius does have an email search, although it was unable to pull up my email address.

Hey Gurka,

One step at a time! Remember, you're just at step 1. End the Affair...

You are in an EXCELLENT place! I was just looking at the date that you became a member here... yep, 3 days ago!

You've already exposed the A to the key people that have real power to separate OM and your W (your C-of-C) and OM's W.

The A WILL end... trust us on this. Your W is going to spew venom at you for a while, but eventually, she will come back to her senses.

Don't focus on "what it will be like when she is forced to be with you in order to 'save' her military career" You aren't at that step now, so don't worry about it.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Because that is the most responsible way to demonstrate that she is once again trustworthy. You will read a lot of posts on here where that unfortunately is usually the position of a BS for awhile. Your WW is not going to all of a sudden fall back in love with you.

You will read this in Surviving an Affair where the WS reluctantly returns to the BS because he/she is out of options. Simple as that, then you start to deposit love units in the love bank to rebuild your marriage.

Forget the clearance thing for now, it is not as important as saving your marrige and you are doing all the right things. You asked the question about it so i though i could clear it up a bit, but best now to press forward with your plan.

SWW

I'll look into reaching his parents more tomorrow. I'm pretty tired now.

Also, will they each have a right to legal counsel during the investigation? As in a civilian criminal case, where the suspect can just shut up and not answer any questions at all. Can they just not talk at all?

Is it not 0240 there? Shouldn't you be asleep if not on watch?

Old Sea Daddy speaking.

SWW

On watch? Heh. It's 2145 here.

Yep, they will have the same rights as a civilian... The FIRST thing that the investigating officer will do is have them sign a DA Form 3881 (RIGHTS WARNING PROCEDURE/WAIVER CERTIFICATE).

Here' the text from the actual form:


None of the soliders that I investigated ever refused to make a statement, and none of them requested a lawyer before or after talking with me during the investigation.

Remember, they will both be accused of adultery or violation of a lawful order... if they clam up and don't say anything, then the investigating officer is pretty much left with making his/her recommendation to the Commander based solely on the facts that he was given at the start of the investigation...

If OM has more time in the military, he may believe that he knows how to "beat" this and most likely will share his ideas with your W... a good investigator will see through this.

Also, remember this, most soldiers get in trouble for lying on a sworn statement during the investigation... not for adultery.

Semper Fi,

RIF

PS - Hey Old Sea Daddy, it's 2034 here in Iraq...

Oops, I never was very good at dat! Still ain't... have been thinking a lot lately bout a place that starts with Pyong and ends in Yang and factoring in the 1/2 hour weirdo thing for AF.

I am getting old.

SWW

Smart aleck kids go no respect for old people these days.

SWW

Folks,

I haven't read to the end of todays thread, but I thought I would comment on this. I am not in the intel business, but I work with and hold high level clearances. Obviously all of the people I work with hold them. I see no evidence, and I am talking about 1000's of people for over 40 years, to indicate that people with clearances cheat or divorce anymore often than the general population.

Need-to-know requirements means even if H and W have same level of clearances they cannot talk about what each of them do.

He clearance is probably toast because her command won't want to invest the money on an unproven commodity with a dubious sense of morals.

Just my thoughts.

JL

Here, here!!!

JL

Gerka,

I would not as RIF has said worry about the clearance thing. Really that is the least of the issues. I would not worry too much about OM's parents. My guess is that you have not heard for OM's W because she has been too busy on her H.

I would also guess that she is in even more emotional turmoil than you are. As every one has said, you have handled this mess very well, and you have your head screwed on straight. OM's W may not have gotten far enough down the road with this new knowledge to do anything but think about her family and herself.

I think the exposure to CoC is going to prove to be the most effective thing you could have done. Get some rest, take care of yourself, and just let the electrons your W is expending trying to contact you move on to your commander as you have been doing.

God Bless,

JL

One thing I would disagree with is exposure to OM's parents. In my case exposing to his parents made my WW no longer a viable long term option for her because they felt she was a slut for cheating on her husband. She would not have been welcome at family functions and OM new that. They let him know that he should be persuing only non-married women. This work better, though, when a person is younger and more influenced by their parents, as well as how religious their parents are. Of course this person was a loser and getting some financial support from his parents. He was also 25. His parents were also Catholic and sent him to a private Catholic college. They did not want their boy wrecking a marriage and dating some "piece of trash" in their minds. Last time I checked (he attempted to "friend" my FWW on facebook), he was dating a Jewish girl (whom I subsequently informed about his affair with a married woman). Oh, well.

I am a bit concerned about the comment that TS clearances start affairs by talking among themselves stuff they cannot talk about with their spouses. Having held as high a clearance as you can get as an EM in the Army working for NSA, I was always given to understand that you didn't talk to fellow workers about what you did except through specific and official channels, period.

And that mean the desk or console next to the one you occupied. And that meant off duty or on duty. That meant don't share anything except through official, specific channels, period, at the risk of really bad things happening to you.

Maybe I misunderstood the comment.

Just saying. . .

Larry

Well, still didn't hear back from OMW. Looks like my WW took her car off our insurance while I was asleep. She also changed the password to our audible.com account, which sucks because I started it, and I like listening to audio books here in Afghanistan...

Good Morning Gurka!


And??? Were you expecting anything from her? Try not to project what you would do if you were the OM's W, and then worry that "something" isn't right because OM's W hasn't contacted you.


Ha! She's really showing you who's the "boss"! Right? Hope she doen't have a wreck with no insurance... that's going to really cost her! hee hee...



And? You were expecting sweetness and light from her? This does sound rather childish, but she's a "big girl" and can do whatever she wants. Her next step will be to confront you and bring these topics (car insurance, changed passwords, book accounts) up during your next chat/phonecall/e-mail...

Don't fall for it!!! Keep on your message of "I love you and I will do whatever it takes to save or M"... Expect her to try and find more actions to hurt you... she's now in rolling on the floor and stomping her feet saying "It's not FAIR!!!" just like a little kid...

You know it's coming, you knew it was coming, because we've all been through it and gave you the battle plan... I know it sucks to listen to her drivel, but don't take it to heart!!!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Yeah, it's right up there with un-friending me on facebook and making herself "invisible" on google chat (though still trying to initiate conversations.) It's like I'm in a marriage with a middle schooler.

hee hee... exactly!!!

Gerka,

Right now you are married to an alien. Your W got beamed up to the Mothership and the replacement is a bit childish because she hasn't been on planet very long. So don't be surprised that she acts like a child cause she is a newbie alien.

Hang in there.

JL

And it might be you never will. Don't worry about that. OMW in my case never contacted me after exposure but OM was stupid enough to let me know that the message was delivered.

Can you say...PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE?

So I guess now we play the waiting game? The investigations will start to roll and crush them over the next few weeks. How long do you expect it will be before I hear from my WW again?

Good afternoon Gurka!

I would guess that the investigation(s) wouldn't take more than a week maybe two at the most...

I would expect a few more nasty e-mails from your W as the investigation moves forward (more threats, more information to show you how wrong you are, etc).

Remember, when your W contacts you, she will be trying to get you to get angry with her... if you get angry with her or lose your temper, then SHE will feel justified in her anger towards you. Don't fall for her tricks!

It's just 0613 at Ft. Sill, so it may be a couple more hours before you hear something from your W...

Semper Fi,

RIF

She's at Fort Huachuca, he's at Fort Sill. Only 0430 at Fort Huachuca yet.

I wonder if she hasn't been counseled by her civilian divorce attorney or a judge advocate not to speak to me anymore.

Hey Gerka,

In a marriage with a middle schooler. Indeed! Taking the car off the insurance? Audible.com change passwords?
Think of the look on a baby's face when you rip the lollipop out of its mouth. She is just acting out trying to get your attention and get you angry like RIF says. Pay no attention. No matter what she says be nice, and it's always I am just doing what i believe is necessary to save our marriage. Period. You are doing great!

SWW

Who knows... it really doesn't matter does it?

The goal of exposing was/is to end the A. I suspect that she will contact you later on today... if she doesn't, then focus on exposing to the OM's parents, and read up on Plan-A.

The investigations will happen and you most likely won't hear anything about the outcome, unless your W gets kicked out of the Army, then you'll hear from her how it was "all your fault"...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I just noticed that she changed our bank information to "separated." So she doesn't show up as my spouse anymore. I also notice that she added her father as a "step-child," though I guess that could have happened a while ago.

So filing for divorce and taking steps separate all of our finances is a typical response in this kind of situation? It just seems unlikely for things to go back in the other direction from here...

There is really nothing more besides contacting the OM's parents that you can do now. The chickens will be coming home to roost for her soon. It will dawn on her soon that this whole thing with a married man 10 yrs her senior and fellow officer was doomed from the start. It'll all come crashing down on her.

These are the times when I try to say a prayer and ask God to take control and do whatever is his will. Stick with Plan A, and try to relax and breathe. You can't force her to see the light. It will have to happen on its own over time with you being the constant safe place to land.

SWW

Remember that she is in a totally different world than the rest of us right now... she is NOT thinking rationally, only about how the whole world (starting with You, Gurka) have ended her perfect little A...

Filing for D, changing bank accounts, blah blah blah... it's all pretty common stuff from what I've seen here. Again, like SWW said you're doing great and you are right where you need to be.

Stay consistent with your mssg if/when she contacts you and don't fall for her baiting you into a fight.

At some point after she's had NC with the OM, she will start to realize what a fool she's been. It might take some time, but most WS realize this once the "high" of the A is over. She may or she may not try to re-engage with you in rebuilding the M... but either way, YOU will know that you did everything possible to fight for your M, and you can hold your head high no matter what the outcome is.

Relax and don't worry about that phase... you're still in the "end the affair" phase...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Are you sure she has actually filed?

I thought the same but both of me and my FWW are posting here now instead of divorce.

She said that she filed and that she mailed the papers on Monday.

I got an email back from the OMW. She thanked me again for making her aware of the situation, said that she has a very strong support network of friends and family, and that further correspondence with me is not necessary.

I'm guessing that means she's probably not following up with his chain of command. Or at least not yet.

She is probably still in shock, or he has a long history of affairs and she has learned to put up with it. The important thing is that you have exposed. You did your part. My bet is that the OM ends the affair. It has become a liability to him.

Your poor wife is in for a big shock.

Just calm down right now. Even if she did file, there are plenty of spouses here that have had the divorce dismissed. There was a poster here named Jayban that had his WW file as soon as he found out, but then she never followed up with it. He went to plan B and eventually his divorce case got dismissed in Texas. He moved to California and was thinking of eventually refiling there, but I haven't spoke to him in a while. The point is, that filing does not mean the end of your relationship. Likely the reason she is acting out is to "punish" you for exposure and to prevent you from further exposure. However, you already exposed to her command which is what she was afraid of.

The biggest factor on whether or not your marriage can be saved is what kind of person your WW is. Is she the hopeless romantic type that is going to bounce around from relationship to relationship and get married and divorced several times? Was this just an honest mistake of her being naive and letting a friendship get too close or is she a narcissist that only cares about herself. Only you know the answers to these questions. However, you won't find out for sure until she no longer has contact w/ OM and gets through withdrawal. Then you'll see your wife peek through. If she is still nasty and doesn't want to reconcile, she's just an awful person and you are better off without her. Move on with your life and choose more wisely next time. If she calms down and starts acting like your wife again, then you will have your opportunity to reconcile.

What was your relationship like before the affair? What were the circumstances of the affair. When did it start, how long were they physical, how long ago did he move, etc. The longer the affair, the more difficult it will be to withdraw from.

What I don't understand is how she thought this would go from the outset. A man 10 years older, married with kids, also in the Army, while she's married to an Army officer. Even when I confronted her initially and asked her how she thought it could work out for the two of them, she said, "I don't know, it's hard to tell the future..." in kind of a hazy voice. It's like she hasn't been able to see past the end of her nose for 6 months.

Addicts have no plans. Other than getting their next fix.

I don't believe she filed for D...she is in full panic mode and can barely get through her day.

You did the right thing. And you gave your M the best shot by ending the A. Like SWW said, time to trust God to work all things out for your good.

She didn't think. She thought she could tip-toe around the lines of proper married boundaries and got herself addicted to the OM meeting her ENs. She's behaving like any other addict would, doing whatever they can to preserve the supply to their drug. Her judgement has been clouded by her addiction and she thought she could manage everything and avoid all the consequences. Typical addict behavior. It's like looking at meth-heads and seeing them with all their teeth rotted out and thinking how they allowed themselves to get to that point. Well, once you are hooked, the disease progresses and it is hard to stop.

How did you find out about the affair? Was she acting cold, you suspected something, and then checked the phone records? Then she confessed to you when confronted?

Brother,

I know that I'm a voice that isn't necessarily saying things you wish to hear. I was in your shoes and didn't wish to hear it either.

There is life after divorce. This woman has cheated on you repeatedly with this guy, you haven't been married long, and you have no kids.

Separate your finances, as she is doing. This is for your own protection.

I don't understand the desire to save something with a woman who shows she doesn't have any respect for marriage and that you have no kids with.

You are looking at a life of deployment so long as you're in the service. You want to worry each time you head out or would you rather have a woman you don't worry about?

Just consider what I say. When I was in your shoes I got mad when the chaplain, of all people, told me that if my WW didn't wish to reconcile and work on things and I headed toward divorce that I should fight tooth and nail for everything.

I didn't want to hear it. I had a commander who told me that I wasn't the problem, my wife was. He told me to D her.

I didn't listen because I didn't want to.

You're young. You deserve better than this. Keep doing what you're doing as far as exposure goes. Just keep a realistic eye on things. I have very rarely seen these things end in recovery on these boards. It happens, but I've rarely seen it with wayward wives. It more often than not ends up with the WW pursuing the D and the BH coming here through the years dealing with personal recovery. The men who emerge from this gauntlet are shining examples for many of us. Chrisner comes to mind, so do a few others.

This is a terrible time for you professionally as well. Seek the support you need, but if you make it through this, focus on your career. Forget about women for a while if you end up divorced. Deploy a lot, do the job, buck up the credentials, and then think of dating again down the road. You won't regret that path.

I'm pulling for you though. It will take a miracle for her to see the error of her ways, but I'm still pulling for you.

Our relationship has always been very passionate and romantic. I'm a very romantic person, and she loves romance. We fell in love listening to sappy country love songs together. I do feel that she may be very self-centered. She suffered sexual abuse as a child, and I've done a lot of reading regarding that, and the effects it has on people. Namely not being able to trust others, not trusting themselves, or trusting the wrong people. Also feeling out of control and then taking drastic steps to regain control. And hypersexuality (in her case.)

A few months before we were married, after having dated for 2 years, she got the opportunity to study abroad in Germany. She didn't even tell me that initially, she just said she was breaking up with me so she could live her own life. I was shocked, and just walked away. Our life plans up to that point had mainly revolved around going to graduate school together and staying in Dallas. I had been feeling restless in school for a while, and had sort of fancifully thought of joining the Army. But when she broke up with me, I started really looking into it, I liked what I saw, and I decided to go for it. In the next 3 weeks we saw each other a lot, being neighbors and having a dog together. We started talking, I found out about Germany, we talked about a lot of things, including my decision to join the Army. Over the next month or so we realized that going in separate directions for a few months was no reason to end the best relationship of our lives, and that we wanted to be together forever. We decided to get married, and I would be in basic training and OCS while she was in Germany. This worked out well as I was able to offer her some financial support, as well as pay to keep a luxurious apartment in Dallas with all of our things in it. When she came back from Germany that spring, she had a fabulous place to live and could just go to school without working due to my support. We communicated in letters, emails and phone calls as often as we could.

As she neared graduation, we discussed the various options. She had long planned to go to grad school, but the only ones she wanted to go to were far away from where I would be. So we decided that the best way for us to be together and stay together would be for her to join the Army (oh how little we knew.) So off she went to basic training while I was in Field Artillery school at Fort Sill. She wrote me often and I wrote back as often as I could (our class average was 72%, it was a tough course.) I saw her briefly between her basic training and OCS in Houston when her sister was very ill. I took her mother apartment shopping (just the two of us) and helped out as much as I could. My wife and got along well and really enjoyed each others company.

Then she went to OCS. We still talked for usually an hour a night, but she had her friends that she wanted to hang out with, so she was pretty busy. I was at Fort Polk and knew no one, so I was pretty lonely. I trained for a marathon with our dog every day, usually running 8 miles a day, and 16 miles on the weekends. I cooked meals for the dog and myself. My job was essentially nothing, and totally unfulfilling. When she found out her branch, and her school date, it was nearly 9 months out. We assumed that it wouldn't be a problem to have her come stay with me at Fort Polk while she waited for her school date, as there were commanders willing to take her on, and good, field relevant work for her to do, and I knew other people that had done the same. When her branch manager told me NO, NO WAY NO HOW I was devastated. I was in tears in public, in front of people I worked with. I rallied my strength and started to fight, getting my BN commander, and BDE commander involved. But the fight fizzled as the branch manager refused to budge. As a last resort, I wrote my senator back in Texas.

She finished OCS very near the top of her class and got her job of choice. I went to the formal, and the graduation, meeting all of her friends (including OM, who shook my hand, and OMW) and hanging out with them for a week. In retrospect she seemed a little different, less talkative, but I didn't really realize it then.

Then she came to Fort Polk with me for 2 weeks for recruiting duty. It was essentially 2 weeks off for her. We drove from Fort Benning to Fort Polk in 2 days, the last night pushing her to the limits of her endurance, and her breaking down in tears on the side of the highway screaming at me that she couldn't take any more. I felt terrible. I just assumed she wouldn't have a problem driving if I wasn't having a problem.

The next 2 weeks were tense. I assumed it was the friction of not having lived together in a while. I would try to talk, and get shut down. We spent some time together, but I was still going to work so she was on her own for most of the daytime. At night we struggled to watch the same things on TV, and when she would put on something I didn't want to watch, I would get up and go to the other room. There was a pretty big disconnect between us, and she seemed very quick to get very angry over little things. I was really, really depressed when she left to drive to Fort Huachuca.

A few weeks later I got the first BIG phone bill that made me do a double take with the amount of phone calls she was making to someone with a Fort Polk phone number. I remember her saying her friend was from Fort Polk, so I knew it was him. I immediately asked her she was talking to him so much when she could be talking to me and texting me. She said that he was just a friend from OCS that helped her out a lot and that they were still keeping in touch. She said she couldn't believe I snooped through the phone bill to see who I was talking to. Didn't I want her to have friends? I felt ashamed and stupid. I've never been a jealous, controlling type of person, so I dismissed all of those thoughts immediately, and didn't even consider it again.

Soon enough we were together at Christmas. I had PRK eye surgery in San Antonio and she drove in from Arizona to spend the time with me while I recovered, and drove me back to Dallas to be with my family. We had a great time at Christmas, the pictures turned out great of us around the house, we all had fun even though my eyes hurt, and it was wonderful. The day we were leaving my parents house to go down to Houston to see her family for New Years, something happened. She left her phone on the kitchen table and a text message flashed across the screen, from OM: "You make me feel like a love crazed teenager."

I didn't say anything until one night at our hotel room in Houston a couple days later. I asked again about the nature of their relationship and told her that I was not comfortable with it. She said they were just friends, nothing more. I asked if maybe just he felt they were more than friends, or wanted to be. She said no. I was in tears at this point, frustrated at having her lie to my face. I told her I didn't believe her. She attacked back hard, asking how I could not trust her, "that's just great, my husband doesn't even trust me!" She then said that if their friendship bothered me so much, she would end it. I felt like that was the answer I wanted. I realize now that if I would have just told her that I saw the text message, we might not be in the situation we're in right now. But I felt guilty somehow for seeing it on her phone. I felt like it must have been a misunderstanding and I didn't want to destroy her faith in me any more. At this point she was very angry, and begin saying that she didn't think that I found her attractive, that we didn't talk enough, that we didn't do things together. I was emotionally and physically exhausted. We both went to sleep.

The next day at her parents house, her phone rang in the other room, and her mother yelled, "It's OM!" She looked at me with terror in her eyes and said, "I'm sorry, I told him not to call, I'm so sorry." I didn't understand why she seemed so apologetic, I was like, "It's ok, it's not a big deal."

The rest of the time together seemed fine. She drove me back to Fort Polk (I was still pretty much blind) and we hardly talked at all. It seemed like every time I tried to talk she would just quickly kill the conversation. In retrospect I wish I had tried harder to get her to open up, because it was 3 hours of uninterrupted "us" time.

She dropped me off, we had sex before she left (our sex life has always been pretty healthy, aside from her issues with feeling that I'm not attracted to her.) I was again severely depressed to have her drive away, back to Arizona, not even knowing when I'd see her again.

We talked online, with the webcam, and over the phone for at least an hour a night for the next month. I planned to come see her in February. Things seemed good, we were talking a lot, being very loving and I felt good about everything, I was so excited to go and see her. And then, come the end of March, I'm told, with about 4 days notice, that I'll be deploying to Afghanistan. My parents drive out from Dallas to get the dog, I'm scrambling to get immunizations and gear issued to me and everything packed. Also my car starts having problems. I tell my wife as soon as I know, and as her to see if her commander will give her a 4 day pass to see her husband before he deploys. Her commander comes back and says only a 2 day pass, a regular weekend. We started looking for flights, but due to the isolation of Fort Polk and Fort Huachuca, the only way we could make it happen would be for her to fly all day saturday and arrive Sunday morning, and then fly out about 6 hours later. The cost was $1200. I told her I didn't think it was a good idea, with everything else going on, and that it was only 6 months. She said, "Ok" and hung up. I didn't hear from her again for 24 hours. When I did talk to her she was bawling. "I can't believe my husband didn't want to see me before he went off to war!" "Do you know what it's like, to go into the office and tell people that I'm not going to take the pass, because my husband doesn't want to see me?" I tried to reason with her and tell her that's not how I felt at all, that I desperately wanted to see her but it just didn't seem possible. She said, "even if we could have just seen each other at the airport, it would have been worth it to me!" I responded, "If you felt that way then why didn't you say so?" She said, "How could I argue with a husband who doesn't want to see his wife before he goes off to war?" I tried to apologize, explain, everything, but I really feel like she never got over this.

Also, I received a phone call from my senator the day before I left for Afghanistan. She was shocked at the travesty of separating us for no reason, and just needed us to sign a release of privacy statement so she could start working towards moving my wife to Fort Polk immediately. I explained to her that I appreciated her concern, but I was going to Afghanistan anyway.

So off I go to Afghanistan, and we're talking a lot, about an hour a day, exchanging emails, and I think things are good. I'm sending lots of little gifts to her in the mail to let her know I'm thinking about her. Like things she saw months ago and mentioned she liked, like a Snuggie (from tv) or a pajamagram when it got cold, or flowers and a card when she had her wisdom teeth out.

Then after 2 months here I see the phone bill with her talking to him again. I hadn't looked at it after she said she wouldn't talk to him anymore. But then I looked back another month and I could see where as soon as I deployed, he started texting, and calling. At first she didn't respond, but after a few days it looks like she gave in. Then there were 4 hour phone calls, tons of text messages, picture messages etc.

I feel like she may have been sincere about cutting off the affair after Christmas, and the phone bill from January says that she did, there was no contact. But the trauma caused by me leaving without seeing her seemed to put her back into the affair. And it's like a mantra in her head now, "you didn't want to see me before you left." It's just not true, I desperately wanted to see her before I left.

So that's kind of the history of our marriage. We had a very strong foundation of talking, and being best friends, and spending time together. But we've been apart for so long now, I feel like her memories of those good times have faded, and she just sees bad things now. She's said she isn't happy and hasn't been happy in a long time. She says she thinks getting married was a mistake. She says that she's been faking climaxes for a while in bed, but that she easily climaxed with the OM.

It's such a tragic situation because I feel like if we could have spent a little more time together, even at the point where I confronted her, that this all could have been worked out so much better. Being there in person to hold her hand and look into her eyes. She did the Marriage builder stuff for 3 days, and I really thought we were going to make it. But with no one to hold her accountable and without anyone there to support her, she relapsed into the OM.

And now I feel like she's going to be so angry and so betrayed over turning her in that there's no chance of her ever forgiving me.

I still really, truly love her, and I could forgive everything she's done. I feel like we're just a few months away from actually living together for years at time, and being really happy together again, and we're being cheated out of it by the terrible circumstances.

Also, I'm pretty sure that if she said she talked to a divorce attorney, she did. She knew all the details of what it would take to get a divorce while I'm here. She specifically said she sent the papers with the waiver I would have to sign in order to waive my right to personal jurisdiction (basically accept that I've been served.) So I'm pretty sure she's not bluffing.

Gerk,

You haven't had a marriage. What you just described is a train wreck. It also feeds into my idea that the military lifestyle can force bad relationships to stay together when they should have withered and died long ago. The key word there is "can". There's tons of good marriages in the military. There's many bad ones as well. I personally jumped into one that is similar to yours in circumstances.

You mentioned something which resonated. Your WW suffered sexual abuse as a child. Not to over generalize, since I know several normal women who were similar victims, but this has a massive impact on a woman as she gets older if she doesn't deal with it.

She has a massive scar in her psyche. This is going to be there for a loooooong time. She will have a constant craving for attention from men. She has a low self esteem to buck up her feeligns. When you're gone, she will seek that elsewhere. My exww, with similar issues to yours, sought friendships with men and turned away from friendships with women, who she didn't trust.

There are massive trust issues with victims of this crime. I didn't understand it in the person I knew who was a victim. I also didn't know about what happened to her as a child. I saw someone who was terrified of being alone.

You are married to a very broken woman with massive psych issues. This isn't one where standard tactics from MB will work. She will stay broken and the only way she can get better is for her to seek help for herself.

I was a hopeless romantic like you when I was your age. I'm 37 now. Just salty enough to know better. True love isn't like what you describe. True love has it's romance, but it isn't artificial, forced, or in spurts. It's a slow burn that is always there and doesn't fizzle out when distance is introduced.

Your WW will seek the attention of men every time she's alone and you deploy. She hates being alone and will always crave that attention. She does it because she's broken inside and is very insecure.

I'm the lone voice in the wilderness, but the best thing for you to do is walk away, count your blessings that you have no kids to deal with this woman with, and find a woman that doesn't need to be rescued or who craves attention. It's a wonderful thing to find that.

By no means do I think that this is easy or doesn't hurt. But you will be grateful this woman is out of your life someday.

Take it from a man who knows, has been in your shoes, and who relates to MUCH in your story. Been there, done that, got the scars.

Very true words above. I am no psychiatrist but I believe HTLD is probably right here. I also think there may be a possibility that there was an OM in Germany due to the strange way that seemed to go down.

You broke up, and then decided to get married all of a sudden? You supported her in a fancy apartment in Dallas so she didn't work and could go full time to school?

This seems to be a marriage of convenience for her and it seems to me like she may have been manipulating you all along. The Military can be very hard on marriages, but in my case as well, when you separate from a woman that craves the attention of men like my WW, it is a recipe for sure disaster.

I like your attitude that you are trying now, in part, so that you will always be able to honestly say that you gave it your all; I did the same thing.

Her world is going to blow up soon. She will possibly return to you with tears in her eyes asking for your forgiveness...and support. Then the next OM comes along next deployment?

Just thinking out loud. Keep on with the MB plan, but with your eyes open.

SWW

I knew about her abuse before we were married. Sadly I never asked her too much about it because it made me so sad, and angry and hurt to hear how someone hurt this wonderful woman that I loved. I realize now that we should have talked about it (she's talked about it with OM) and she should have gone to therapy. She's going to therapy now. Her therapist is telling her do whatever makes you happy right now, and encouraging her to pursue the affair.

But my point is I made a commitment to her, knowing that she had some issues. I truly feel that she's not 100% to blame for what she's done, she was placed in these ridiculous circumstances by our army circumstances without the ability to cope with it adequately. I feel that she's out of control of her actions and she needs me now more than ever. And I'll be there for her until she makes me go away. Never quit, never surrender.

I am far, far more committed to my marriage than I am the army. If I can save my marriage, I'm out. I don't need this. I've done my part, I've taken my lumps and suffered for my country. Every day there's nice weather here people try to blow me up. If the Army had been just slightly more accommodating in letting her come to Fort Polk with me, instead of supporting their red tape for the sole purpose of it being red tape, this wouldn't have happened.

In other words, there won't be any more deployments. If she comes to Fort Polk, she'll be in my non-deployable unit. This little 40 man deployment will be the last the brigade ever musters before it fades away into nothingness in the next 2-3 years.

Do not blame yourself for her choice to jump back into the A. That was 100% her choice.

A's are extremely addictive! Even if she had flown out to say goodbye to you, she would have found another reason to justify her jumping back into the A.

You were absolutely right to call her out on her responsibilty to tell you that she wanted to see you, no matter what. When she finally told you how she felt and you explained how much you DID want to see her, that would have been enough to smooth over any hurt feelings she had...if she wasn't engaged in an A.

She continued to hold onto this issue b/c she needed it to justify her affair, not b/c it was an unforgiveable incident.

So please stop beating yourself up over it.



It's tough to stay angry forever. W/o motivation....like an ongoing affair. Once she gets through W/drawals she will begin to think clearer. By then you will be home. Don't give up hope.

I felt like you as well about the AF. My mind was clouded by the desire to point the finger anywhere else but the real problem, which was my W.

I was blaming the wrong entity.

True, you certainly have paid the price for your country, but trust me when I tell you that being together will not solve your problems with a woman like this.

You will eventually disappoint her, as you have already through no fault of your own, and she will seek attention elsewhere. Read up on the victims of this crime. She's following the pattern. Women like her seek romance for the wrong reasons. You WILL be burned again.

If you leave the army and she recommitts, you will be burned again.

This woman is broken in the head more than your standard WW. This isn't a normal woman who stumbled into a mistake. This is a woman who will constantly seek the attention of men regardless of her marital status. She will continue to have poor boundaries.

Yes, you committed. I commend you for that. I did too. I had the same attitude. I was going to stick by my WW to the end and pay any price necessary to save my marriage and keep the family intact.

Divorcing her, as much as it hurt and I didn't want it, was one of the best things that has ever happened to me. I was married to an overgrown child. To this day she uses medical problems to get attention (not an uncommon problem in these victims either).

Do more research. Look at the long term impact of what she's suffered. It is lasting, it runs deep, and will mess her up for years to come unless she gets proper treatment or deals with it appropriately.

To any victims of abuse reading this: I understand that not all women deal with this problem in the same way. I understand that some grow up to become perfectly normal women with healthy relationships. But some women carry this crime with them for life and never get help.

Your WW is addicted to being in love. Normal love is alien to her. The high of new relationships is what she considers love. The long term commitment is boring to her. She sees this as "we lost the passion" or "I don't feel about you like I use to".

You could be Casenova, James Bond, and Superman all rolled into one and she will eventually find you inadequate.

This is harsh truth to hear. Take it as advice from a man who was exactly where you are and thinking exactly the same things.

Ridding yourself of her will eventually be a liberating thing. Kids with this woman will be a big mistake, since the eventual divorce will involve a custody fight with an equally selfish woman who believes she's entitled to sole physical and legal custody and will fight you tooth and nail.

Either that, or she'll walk away from the kids to pursue her future OM, abandoning them for her selfish interests.

Neither of those scenarios is good to deal with. Again, take it from a man who literally has the heart damage after having gone through it.

MB will not work on a woman like this. She is broken and will stay broken and won't seek you out unless she has something personal to gain from it.

In my opinion you just described an incredibly flawed person that needs romance and attention to overcome her self-esteem issues and sexual abuse history. She seems like the exact personality type to have multiple affairs in the future to keep from feeling "empty" inside.

You also seem like a person drawn to the romance. Did you fall in love with her despite her flaws in part because she was hypersexual? I know how hard it is to break up with a girl that is hypersexual. I also know many guys that fall in love with any girl that has sex with them. Understanding the MB concepts can easily explain why if sexual fulfillment is a top EN. I also fear that like myself, you have a bit of the "white knight" syndrome, wanting to rescue a girl you feel needs you because they will love you more for saving them. However, that usually backfires because the girl usually just winds up using you until they find the next white knight to save them from their current relationship.

What I'm saying to you, is that your courtship was not ideal, and you should not have made the commitment to this person at this point in your life, even if you loved her. Hey, looking back on things, I should have never married my wife (I'm still married to her by the way). There were a ton of red flags and I ignored them and made a commitment to a person I should not have committed to. My 6.5 years have marriage have been a struggle, and my life would have been a lot easier had I chosen a more suitable partner.

Your WW was probably an low self-esteem emotional just kind of floating along in life without a ton of direction and this great guy just swooped her off her feet, and you wanting her made her feel good about herself again. Then reality sets in, you rarely see each other, and you just don't make her feel good about herself anymore. Then she starts seeking out something to make her feel better and the professional cheaters pick her up on their radar and take advantage of that neediness. Then your WW would do anything to continue to get that high that she gets from the desire of other men.

My advice to you would be if you are going to continue to try and save this relationship is this. Get NC established. Come home. After 6 months of NC and 3 months of plan A when home, if she is not willing to recommit and truly follow ALL of the MB program, then rid yourself of this woman and find a more suitable partner in the future. You do not want this happening again when you have kids. Use your experience to keep from falling for the wrong type of woman again. Forget the romance (not completely). Who would be best suited to raise your child?

Also, how did you ever find out it was physical? Did she admit to it at some point?

You are a good man.

Every woman wants to be fought for.

This may or may not be true. Jeff hasn't even gotten the chance to TRY MB princples in his M.

And MORE importantly, he WANTS to try.

BTW,

I too had the White Knight Syndrome. It's something to explore. We get a certain satisfaction from rescuing the damsels in distress.

Those damsels are exciting women. The sex is ofen awesome (my psycho ex fiance was hot and hypersexual) and the troubles she deals with which you're rescuing her from are exciting elements in the relationship.

But the woman is using you. She is not consciously doing it, but you're in the picture for only as long as you're useful.

I had many White Knight relationships, starting with high school through to my exww.

When I divorced I started to follow the same pattern. I met a woman in my divorce group who had been cheated on and was hurting over it and I fell for her. I had that White Knight idea that I could show her how she should be loved, etc, etc.

I'm glad I recognized the dead end that was before going further.

I made a conscious decision to seek women who were independent, on their own two feet, and didn't need me for anything other than companionship, good company, and where a relationship could develop.

I've met such a woman and we're marrying soon. I'm very happy and I know I have someone in my life that is an equal partner and not one in need of rescue of any type.

Your WW is a really broken soul.

Part of your personal fog is your age. I have a decade of experience on you as a man who is very similar in values as you are. The White Knight thing is something I had to consciously fight.

We give you this feedback as food for though. By no means do I expect you to say, "You guys are right. I'm ending this right now and counting my lucky stars."

You're hurting and are in a bit of denial. Chew and digest the thoughts we're giving you. A little emotional distance will help you see the truth in what we say.

Not mentally stable ones.

Yes, she told me during her first one day "break down" where she was saying she loves me and wants to try marriage counseling and work on our marriage. She said they had sex at OCS, and that she was able to climax from it. She said that she used to with me, but over time she's felt like I'm less and less attracted to her and so she's been faking it because she's not into it. Keep in mind her sex drive outstrips my own, and when together initiation is usually 50\50 on both our parts.

During her 3 day "break down" where she read marriage builders, ordered the books, we both filled out the EN questionnaire, and I filled out a personal history (she didn't finish hers before she reverted back to the OM.) Her questionnaire put sexual satisfaction as her 3rd need, with her satisfaction with me as a 2. Her explanation was that she was no longer able to climax from sex because she feels that I'm not attracted to her.

Still, rough stuff to hear. I'm always telling her how sexy she is, how beautiful she is, how much I enjoy our sex life, buying her lingerie, etc. I think that her sexual satisfaction was probably impacted by her lack of feeling connected to me, via communication and affection, which she was instead having with the OM. Her memory of "bad things" in our marriage focuses primarily on things that have occurred while she was having the affair.

I've never had complaints about lack of sexual satisfaction before from other women. We're both very experienced people, me from high school\college days, and her from middle school through college. I've been with about 50 partners, she's been with about 30. So I didn't rush into marriage because of her hypersexuality, or because she was the first woman I've had sex with.

Excerpts from the book Wild at Heart Discovering the Secrets of a Man's Soul.

Hi Gurka,

Thanks for sharing your story with us... it does help fill in some gaps.

One of the things that you will find here on the MB pages is that we that post here speak from our own personal experience. We share them with others that are hurting for various reasons, but believe that most that share do so in the hope that the pain that they've been through and the lessons that they've learned will help someone.

I'm not about to say that any of the posters here are wrong and that you should follow ___'s advice unless it is reinforcing the MB princples.

You are getting a lot of great information here on various situations with BH's that had a WW that was similar to your situation. Please remember that EVERY situation is different, and in the end, it is YOUR decision as to what you want to do.

The facts that the other posters have laid out to you are very similar to what I delt with with Mrs. RIF. For us, we were able to move back to the states and we were able to establish a "normal" marriage in that I wasn't constantly in the field for training, and back then , there weren't any deployments.

Mrs. RIF eventually got the counseling and medical treatment that she needed, and she eventually confessed to the A that I suspected with one of my soldiers, as well as five more that all occured while we were stationed overseas... Her confession was 10 years after her last A.

It took us about 2.5 years to rebuild our M after her confession to the other A's.

Please keep reading here and keep focusing on ending the A and plan-A'ing her when she tries to hurt you. Once she has been in NC with the OM, you can then evaluate what direction you'd like to go.

You don't have to decide today. So focus on what you can control right now, and don't worry about "what if" way down the road...

Semper Fi,

RIF

All right! More committed to your marriage than the army? YOU are my HERO, Soldier! I salute you, and I want you to know that you are a Great American.

I'm going to start calling you Wilt.

Seriously, it's scary that she needs sex to feel good about herself and that she can't climax anymore with you because she doesn't feel you desire her anymore. That is not good or normal. She has major issues that she will need to get fixed before she can have any healthy relationships, and you can't fix her. I'm afraid she may bounce from relationship to relationship looking for someone she can "climax" with until she can't climax with them anymore. Then she repeats the pattern. If you save your marriage you will have to be on high alert all the time because she is definitely wired to cheat much more than the average person.

Gerk had it right when he said..

Did you notice that she didn't climax with you?

I just don't understand how you can say this.

When was there a time when Gerk and his W were living together, meeting each other's needs when she cheated on him?

I agree with Marsh 100%.

And being in the military and the separations are hard on marriages. I worked for 5 different 2nd LT's in the past 10 years and ALL of them got out. With the wars going on, even if you are not deployed, there are long, almost impossible hours. My last one worked from 4:00AM to 9:00PM, and most weekends. His wife left him and moved back home. He got out and they now are happily married and have 2 sons. And by the way, he used the MB program.

I agree with Believer, 101 %.

No, she was faking. I noticed that she seemed to not be enjoying herself as much as she used to, and I asked her about it when I noticed (I've always felt that talking about sex is the best way to make it better.) She said she didn't know why.

If she is sending you a waiver (and divorcing in Texas) DO NOT SIGN THAT WAIVER. Yes, it is a waiver of service but it can also be a waiver of your rights to be notified of any future hearings, etc. In other words, she could get your signed waiver, file it with the court, wait 60 days and then go to the courthouse WITHOUT YOU or notice to you and prove up her divorce. You could be divorced within 60 days of the date you sign the waiver.

Force her to personally serve you. Also, I believe that in Texas if you are active duty stationed overseas, any divorce action would be put on hold. Not 100% sure about that but I am SURE about the waiver. I'll check the rules.

Hey Gurka,

Just wanted to remind you of something... ALL of us are "wired" to commit adultery.

One of the things that MB did for Mrs. RIF and I was that it showed us that we BOTH needed to place specific boundaries within our M to make sure that we protect it at all times... that's why spending time together is so critical to the MB program.

Stay focused on ending the A and don't worry about the things that you can't control right now...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I highlighted your critical error: waywards don't think.

Yep, don't cooperate, drag it out.

You can have a great marriage again. Believe that.

AMEN !

This is a generalization. Be careful with those.

"She won't seek you out unless she has something personal to gain from it" sounds pretty much exactly like the way MB works, to me!

Here is what Marriage Builders actually says about childhood abuse issues:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5019_qa.html


A couple of other related articles:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8115_prob.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html


A reminder, from the top of this page:

So you're saying it's a good idea for her to have therapy for her childhood abuse with a person who's encouraging her affair??

DITTO !

I plan on dragging it out as long as I can until I feel that she's in a position to make rational decisions again. It boggles my mind that when she's screaming at me she's telling me I'm being crazy and she's perfectly rational.

I'm not signing anything here in Afghanistan. If (when) I get any kind of legal paperwork in the mail, I'll take it to the SJA at a nearby camp and have them advise me. I'm protected from any kind of civil actions by the SSCRA, a federal law, until I return from deployment. I think by that point (3 months from now) she'll have calmed down enough that we can make some decisions.

Hi MB,

I didn't read it that way at all...

I read it as a description of the condition of his marriage from a solider that is 7,000 miles away from home who is trying to do the best he can to fight for his marriage...

Please, Let's try and focus on helping Gurka instead of analyzing his posts.

Semper Fi,

RIF

What RIF said. I really get lathered up when all survivors of childhood abuse get tagged with crap like "damaged, self-esteem problems, seeking out men/terrified of men, don't trust men/women," blah blah blah. Do not distract yourself with her childhood issues right now. Right now you need to get her back with you and establish NC. Oy vey.

Hey Gurka,

How have you been doing with reading up on Plan-A?

There are some good suggestions up in the Military section... When you get a chance, take a look at some of the ways that you can meet your W's EN's while you're deloyed...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Gurka and everyone else,

Sorry to go off psychoanalyzing your WW. Not all abuse victims are permanently damaged goods. I do not know your WW. I guess maybe I am projecting some of my own feelings and experience onto your situation. I respect that you are fighting for your marriage, and I hope this turns out well for you. Up until this point, your marriage never stood much of a chance because of the distance and circumstances. Hopefully, your WW will buy into MB and you will have a great marriage in the future. I just wanted to make sure you didn't overlook anything. There are plenty of BSs that have come here that are clinging to marriages with awful people and continue to take the abuse, hoping their spouse will change. Good luck, and I'll drop the psychoanalysis for good. I just wanted to get more of the backstory to understand your situation better to help advise on what to do going forward. Stay safe.

Hi there-

I wanted to weigh in on the sexual abuse and adultery issue. I was abused in every way growing up- including sexual. My mother told me I was lying about her husband molesting me and believed him over me. I had to live in the house with him until I was old enough to move out. I was extremely anger at my mother for not protecting me. You grow to distrust people when the person who is to care for you the most doesn't.

My grandmother was the only person who loved me growing up. She instilled in me values and loved me unconditionally. I was unhappy in my marriage because I couldn't get my ex to meet any of my needs- and he wasn't interested in doing so. I had a hysterectomy one week and my grandmother died the next at 93.

The one person who put me infront of themselves was gone from this earth- what was I going to do?? I had depended on so many things to fill my emotional love bank. My job, my husband, my house, my friends, my children. The thing that happens is that those things stop satisfying you and you have to move on to the next one.

The emotional hole is for me something only that God can fill- and if I seek anything else to fill it- it's a poor substitute.

I don't feel that I'm damaged goods- although I did commit adultery when I was married before. I have asked for forgiveness and have not received it (as is his right) but I know my Lord has forgiven me. I feel that I'm that much more of a person who will and has kept my boundaries in check now. Do I think I'll do it again? I don't feel that I will.

She needs some therapy- but you cannot force her to get well.

*link* to the newsletter

Good Morning Gurka!

How are you doing this morning?

Semper Fi,

RIF

I said it before and I'll say it again: Not all abused women end up with the psych scars and they end up dealing with their abuse and have normal relationships.

Having experienced the other end, however, led me to do some research on the matter when I learned about it. The research I did suddenly opened my eyes and so much of what puzzled me in the marriage suddenly made sense.

So to dismiss it outright is wrong just as putting everything into it is wrong as well.

But that's putting things ahead of the more immediate issues at hand.

Ending the affair is number one regardless of whether or not you pursue divorce.

My contribution to you is merely in the fact that divorce will be/may be the most difficult thing you've ever gone through BUT the lessons learned from it can help you tremendously when you finally heal and decide to date again.

In other words, there is life after divorce and it can be much better than you imagined.

That's ultimately what I'm trying to say.

I relate to much of what you post, down to the feelings about deployments, your marriage, etc.

Keep your chin up and we'll be rooting for you.

I've read this several times and each time I come away with the same thought:

Huh?

Why in the world is Dr. Harley suggesting the BETRAYED SPOUSE would have an affair???

The OMW has contacted me again, saying that things have been aired and she feels that her husband is still lying to her even when he says he's telling her the "truth" about everything. She asked me to explain some of the problems in my marriage, and that she had talked to my WW, so that I shouldn't try to paint myself as a saint.

Certainly not what I expected. I seem to be the one on trial now.

Just finished reading your stitch when you posted

Remember from her POV - she has a vested interest for this to go away quietly and quickly,

She may not be an ally but she will be watching on her end and that is good.

thanks for your service and sorry to see so many soldiers on this board lately...you hear how deployments are tough on the families but one doesnt realize that families are being destroyed during these times/

Gerka,

I am going to play devils advocate here. You don't have to explain your marriage to OM's W. If she has a specific incident she wants to check with you, then fine tell her. However, you might want to consider that he has convinced her that you are nuts and is using her to try and get information from you so that he knows what is coming. Your W might be in on this as well as she is still talking to OM.

I hate to be cautious here, but I think until the investigation takes place you need to just sit back and do your job. OM's W is going to find out about the investigation and the results so what you say or don't say will not aid her situation at this point.

I gather from your detailed history that it is likely the OM and your W hooked up in OCS and that at that point he was in her CoC. Is that right? If so you need to transmit that info to the powers that be. Also it is possible that other trainee's were aware of the affair. Most won't like having to lie for her and risk their careers. You might get some very good leverage from this.

Be cool, be quiet, and take care of business where you are.

God Bless,

JL

No, they were both officer candidates together.

I've considered that perhaps they've "turned" her, but I'm not sure....

I can't imagine a BS writing this to another BS.

Could it be OM, writing to you, posing as his W?

First he says this...trying to get you to tell him more of what you know.

And then he gives you the second part...seeing if you can give him some dirt that he can use to discredit you.

She just told you she didn't see a need for further contact...and now this?

Doesn't make sense.

I wrote her back explaining how the affair started, how it progressed and what's happened since I've confronted her. I told her if she has specific questions that she needs answered so she can know her husband is lying, to ask and I will answer them.

Saw my WW withdrew about $4 from her joint account that had been put there for debit card rebates and interest. Such a petty little thing to do.

I'm concerned that since it's a joint account, some kind of autopayment or something may hit it, and then I'll be stuck with fees for no reason.

I'm pretty sure that this is OM not OMW. OM knows that you are using email to contact OMW and it is VERY SIMPLE for him to get OMW mail account info and fake OMW. This is war also from his side and he will use everything he can against you!

Please proceed very cautiously, the best course of action right now is to stop communication with "OMW".

When OMW originally contacted me she said her email was a personal one that her husband doesn't check. To be honest I have no idea what's going on. Him knowing what I told her won't save him though. I just sent in the other 4 months worth of phone bills to the investigators, not having looked at them myself since I first got them. The amount of contact between them is staggering, literally thousands of text messages, hundreds of calls. If the investigators are looking for a "pattern" I think they'll find one.

Good afternoon Gurka!



...yep, and I'm sure that OM told his W that he wasn't having an affair too. If OM was 'slick' enough to stay in an A with your W, then he's just laying another lie on his W about not checking her e-mail... assume that the OM is on the other end of OMW's e-mail.

I agree with the others... don't pass on any information to the OM'sW/OM until you can 100% verify who you're talking with on the other end.

OM's W knows about the A, and that's good enough for now.

Great job in providing the additional records... and yes, it will definitely help in showing a pattern.

Have you provided a sworn statement yet? If not, I would get started on that and list the FACTS as you know them. Try to be as specific as you can about contact between the OM and your W. Have your sworn statement signed off by your downrange commander and then send it to each of the commands.


...um, yes you DO know what's going on!

You know that your W is/was having an A with OM.

You HAVE exposed A to their C-of-C.

You HAVE exposed A to your W's friends and Family.

You HAVE exposed A to OM's W.


So, given those facts, you pretty much know what the outcome of all of this will be, right???

THE AFFAIR BETWEEN YOUR WIFE AND OM WILL DIE!!!


Focus on this first step (ending the A) and Plan-A... you don't have to worry about any of the other "steps" right now.

Your goal is to end the A and show your W your BEST side and show her that you can be loving and kind to her no matter what venom she spews at you.

We'll cross the other bridges after we finish crossing this one...

Semper Fi,

RIF

So I should be waiting to hear from my WW, right? The last thing she said to me (over instant messsenger) was "I'll never talk to you again if you go through with this." So I assume I should wait to hear from her once she's had a while without the OM.

My BN commander told me that he doesn't need a sworn statement from me, though I offered. The other BN commanders are in charge of the investigations, and I assume they've appointed investigating officers who will contact me if they want a sworn statement.

Also, should I answer the phone when\if she calls?

Also can I get a good link to a good explanation of "Plan A" ?

Hi Gurka,

I wouldn't be "waiting" as in waiting for a package to arrive... In other words, I suspect that you WILL hear from her at some point in time but try not to put a timelimit or timeframe on it.

I know this is hard, but try not to think:

"Ok, if I hear from her the next time I open up my e-mail, that will mean that I still have a chance..."

or

"If I have a message from her within the next 48 hrs then that will mean that she's mad at me, but willing to work things out..."

or

"If I don't hear from her within the next week, then all chance for rebuilding the M are off..."


Do you see where I'm trying to go with this? Don't set yourself up for dissapointment. Contact will most likely happen, and you should be preparing for it by studying up on some of the ways to reach out to her by meeting her EN's.

Read some of the ideas up in the military section...

If your BN Cdr said you don't need to do a sworn statement, then I'd follow his advice.

You're doing great!!! Just relax and study up on Plan-A and let the investigations happen...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Hey Gurka - If she calls and you feel that you can control your emotions and stick with your script "I love you and I am willing to do everythning possible to save our M." Then, yes, I think you should answer.

If you aren't sure that you can do this, then I would suggest not answering.

I know it's a hard decision because you want/need contact with your W... that's only natural. But remember, your "wife" is on another planet right now... think through how you'd handle a call from her when she starts off with something like this:

"Gurka, I TOLD you that if you went ahead with this that we're finished! Just wanted to let you know that it's OVER!!!"

If you can respond with your standard line and NOT get into any relationship talks, then go ahead and answer the phone....

Semper Fi,

RIF

Like I said, I could use a good Plan A link. I know I've seen one, but I can't find it again.

We both filled out EN questionnaires during her 3 days of Marriage builders. Our EN rankings are almost identical in importance, none of our needs are more than 1 position off from each other. But where I felt that most of mine were reasonably well met by her (aside from honesty) she pretty much put that none of hers were fulfilled beyond a "1" by me. And instead of putting ways that I could improve the way I meet those needs, she just put criticisms of things that she didn't like.

I just read back through the EN questionnaire she filled out, and I guess she did say that I was doing an ok job at some things, ie attractiveness, admiration, sex was a 2.

I feel like our emotional needs are very similar judging from the questionnaire, and I know we've met each others before, but such a long time apart has eroded our ability to do that.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

This is from the basic concepts part of the MB web site... I think you can search for theads by using the search tab on the top of your window...

Semper Fi,

RIF

*edited to add*

yep, the search tab at the top of the page... type "plan a" and it will list a bunch of links.

Hopefully some of the more experienced members will provide you some direct links to some of the better threads...

I read the basics part, but it's not as good as the some of the better posts that list out the "carrot" and the "stick" parts.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2356286&page=1

"Carrot and Stick of Plan A (Revisited)" by Pepperband...

Here you go Gurka!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Looks like I'm doing a pretty good job of Plan A. Just need to wait for all the consequences to rain down, and her to start thinking clearly again.

Do you guys ever feel like you're acting as a parent by doing any of this? Like you're letting them learn their lesson in order to make them a better person? It seems difficult to see each other as equal partners in this situation.

Hey Gurka,

Yes, it can feel that way at times... keep reading and learning.

You're doing a super job!!!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Gerka,

Are you dealing with combat patrols?

Keep your head in the game when you can. A distraction like this could literally cost you your life, not that you need to be told.

I'm guessing that if WW and OM have talked to OMW, then they have tried to paint you as a raving and jealous guy finding things where they don't exist.

I wouldn't write more to OMW. Perhaps a short note along the lines of:

OMW,

I wish to save my marriage and end this affair. Telling you was an important step.

I encourage you to do your own snooping to uncover the truth. Best of luck to you.

Gerka

That's all. Unless she starts spying and sharing intel with you, then you should have no need to contact her any further.

It will be iteresting to see how they respond to the hammer coming down. My guess is that OM will dump WW like a hot potato.

He's seeing things unravel as it is.

Best of luck.

Yes. I once was compared to "Chairman Mao" when I found her pre-paid calling card she used to contact OM after she had already agreed to NC and tore it up. How she "hated" that I was so "controlling." Well, after the addiction wore off, she got over it. It's sad when you have to treat your own wife like a rebellious, hormone-filled teenage daughter, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

Next time OMW says something to the effect of "you are no saint," I would respond by saying that "WW has painted you as a pretty crappy wife, but that it doesn't make it true. Would WW admit to cheating on a good husband, or would she just make excuses to justify her cheating?" I'm sick of people blaming the BS for the WS's affair. It happens all the time. "Well, she obviously wouldn't have cheated on you if you had a good marriage to begin with." Really?

Again, I know you want this affair to be over and your WW to get through withdrawal, like yesterday, but it is going to take some time. Be patient. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

What did she put as her top ENs?

Maybe we can help you think of ways to meet them from a distance. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it right now; she's madder than a wet hen and you can't make any LB$ deposits at the moment. But in a week or two you can start putting out little glimpses of what a great option the marriage is.

It is not abnormal for a BS to turn the tables and make the other parties the 'bad guys'. She's trying to protect the relationship she (thought) she had, and make it salvageable. It's easier to square the whole A if she can be left with a BH who is somewhat of a victim in her eyes.

Don't let her analysis of your M distract you. You've still given her a heads-up; what she does with that is up to her.

Just got a response from OMW:
Thanks, that's it. I won't be contacting you again.

I replied with what you guys recommended above, that telling her was an important step to saving my marriage, and the right thing to do, and that she should never feel like she or I are at fault for any of this.

That's fine. Although I don't think you should dismiss the possibility that she will contact you again. Right now she's in a state of disbelief, anger, outrage, etc. You are a reminder of a terrible crime against her. As she gets stronger she may contact you again. Good of you to leave the door open by being cordial in your response.

Fred, you have no idea how pleased I am with you for catching this typo that I totally missed.
I copied/pasted this from the Harley newsletter.
Today I did a "notify mod" on Dr Harley !

My brain read it the way I thought it should have been written, not the way it was written.

LOL
Hopefully, the typo will be corrected.


*muah*

I slept last night from 11pm until 6am without taking anything to make me sleep. Went to the gym at lunch today (to lift weights) and then went running and did ab workouts\pullups\pushups. Jumped in the shower, put on a fresh clean uniform, fixed my hair and had a tasty dinner. Feeling pretty good today.

I feel like I have a plan and I'm executing it to the best of my ability, and it's worked pretty well so far (according to you guys.) I'm feeling kind of hopeful about my marriage, but I'm very worried about my wife and wish I could talk to her.

Evening Gurka,



Yes, you are doing a super job with your plan! And good for you for doing some things for yourself today!

Your wife will eventualy return... right now, she's fighting for the addiction that she knows will soon be taken away from her.

Semper Fi,

RIF

It feels torturous and wrong knowing that she's probably terrified of what's about to happen, and all alone right now. I feel like I want to hold her and tell her it'll all be ok. But I guess that just makes me a sucker.

How about contacting OM's parents now? Let OM know you are not backing down one bit.

No, it makes you a loving husband.

Pour out all your love for her in prayer, Gerk.

Hang in there.

Nope, you're not a sucker. You're a warrior that's fighting for his marriage.

Semper Fi,

RIF

It makes you a loving H.

She needs to face the consequences of her adultery. Only then will she learn.

Do you guys really think that if her whole career in the Army (which she's really enjoyed so far, and was looking forward to the future in the Army) is destroyed in the next few weeks\months that she's going to get over that?

Yes. If that happens, then that door will close. Another will open.

An important question is, if it is destroyed, is it because of her behavior, or not?

Yes.

If she loses her job, it will NOT be your fault.

It will be entirely hers.

She knew what risks she was taking w/ her career when she began it. The risk was part of the thrill for her...for them.

Gerka, I said this before, but I want to say it again:

YOU are my HERO, Soldier! I salute you, and I want you to know that you are a Great American.

Keep up the great work!

The part about blaming the BS just really makes me see red!

Never did get any answers from my ex, but was told by friends and the OW's husband that the reason he had an affair was because I was not into his motorcycles enough. And the day he met the OW, I was working OT to help buy my ex a brand new Harley, which had been his lifelong dream. Felt like a slap in the face.

Hang in there.

.... and ..... Believer got the Harley in the D settlement, then, Believer gifted the Harley to OWH.

Since Believer won't toot her own horn, I'll do it for you !

First of all, it probably won't be destroyed unless she and OM keep going down the same path they are going. Secondly, if it is destroyed, it is her fault not yours.

Honestly, what would you think is harder to get over, losing your job, or your spouse screwing another person and refusing to cut of all contact? If you can get over her infidelity, I'm POSITIVE she could get over a career setback. If she is not the kind of person that could get over it, then trust me, you a much better off without her. This will be her test of true character to determine whether or not she is still worthy of YOU, not the other way around.

I feel for you man. I wish I could send you a couple of my homebrews to calm you down. The WORST part is always right after exposure. It won't get any worse from here.

Hey Gurka - Yes, she'll get over it... it might take some time, but she will get over it and then will most likely regret her actions, because she will KNOW that her decisions and choices were the reason that she never had a career in the Army.

You're going to get e-mails/phone calls/chats where she will place 100% of the blame on you... don't buy into this. It was her decision to have an A and she's a big girl and knew the risks that she was taking.

Don't worry about her feelings for her career, they are her's and her's alone, and you are not responsible for her feelings.

Semper Fi,

RIF

I heard from a friend of mine @ Fort Sill that the FA BOLC has had to court martial an LT for sleeping with a 14 year old and another for adultery related charges in the last few months. Apparently the CG is running out of patience for this sort of thing.

A truly remorseful WW will 'recover' from the loss of her career due to her own actions. I put 'recover' in quotes b/c I don't like the implication of her being any kind of victim.

If she never gets over it, that's your strongest clue that she remains wayward, even if only in thought, not action.

Just my $0.02,

Martes

Hee hee... and I'm sure that that the CG won't cut POS-OM any slack when he finds out that he's involved with the W of a deployed warrior and fellow officer!

I sure would like to be a fly on the wall of the CG's office when OM gets his G.O. letter of reprimand!

I take it that OM is a brand new 2LT that's in his basic course, right? If he was prior enlisted, I'll also bet that OM doesn't have his 20 years in yet either... so much for that nice Army retirement with annual COLAs and free medical!!!

His wife sure is going to be ticked off at him when she learns that he's getting booted out of the Army!!!


Semper Fi,

RIF

That made my stomach turn. Ugh, I feel so sick.

Bad timing on OM's part, huh?
The worst time to act up is when Mom and Dad are already in a bad mood.

Sucks to be them!

He has about 10 years in. Had just made E7 and went to OCS. Yeah he's in Field Artillery basic course right now. Definitely had been around long enough to know better. Just thought he was smarter than everyone else.

Well, it sounds like the OM is in a world of hurt now... and he has much more to lose than your W! I'd be willing to bet the CG will throw the book at him since he was a former senior NCO!

This just reinforces my gut feeling that the e-mails from the "OMW" were the OM. He's trying to do anything and everything that he can to try and save his career... if he can get some "dirt" on you, he's hoping that he can use that for his defense.

This is GREAT news for you because it means that the A is almost 100% done with. OM is going to be fighting for his military career and he's going to do whatever it takes, including saying that your W is the one that was 'persuing' him! I see big troubles in fantasy land! Oh, and don't forget about OM's W... she's probably in shock and just as worried about OM's career as he is...

You're in a great place now.... keep focused and be ready to plan-a your W WHEN she contacts you!

Semper Fi,

RIF

WW shot me an email asking why I had put $100 in her joint account (that she had taken all of her money out of then, and then several days later taken 4 dollars and change out of, as a little angry jab I think.)

I told her because I didn't want the account to get hit with an automatic payment or small charge and get a bunch of overdraft fees.

No response, but it was at the least, a civil exchange in which I looked sensible.

Cha-Ching! You've just made a love bank deposit!!!

Yep, she probably won't say anything, but trust me, it WILL have an effect on her....

Keep it up and look for more ways to meet her EN's.

Semper Fi,

RIF

I swear, Gerka, you are a MB poster child.
Or maybe not. Poster child usually means "feel sorry for me".
You're the new MB mascot!

You are still acting like a responsible married person, and she will recognize that. She cleaned out the joint accounts to get back at you, and instead of you yelling at her about it, you just transfered more money so you wouldn't trigger an automatic fee that would put your account in the red. "But why would he do this?" she'll ask herself, and it will cause turmoil inside of her for acting so petty while you continue to act kind and responsible. "I thought he hated me and was trying to destroy me?" Well things like this will show her you aren't playing games and still want to work on the marriage.

She's looking for a response. She cleaned out the checking account, and you didn't yell at her, you just put in more money. This confused her. Now she writes an email to try and provoke you again. You didn't take the bait.

Gerka,

You said Yeah it does. But you the kind of "sucker" that deserves to be married to a good woman. Your the kind of "sucker" that "gets" what marriage is all about. In short, if being in love with your spouse is being a "sucker", the all of us would do well to be "suckers". I'm proud of you for feeling the way you do.

BUT, what really makes me proud of you, is that you have:

1. Stood up for your marriage.
2. You have informed her CoC and OM�s CoC about the affair.
3. You have acted with compassion and with resolution to protect your marriage.
4. You have not backed down from doing the hard stuff like exposing.
5. You have been willing to face her wrath when the consequences of HER actions hit.

Gerka, you have done a lot of things that you should be proud of.

As for her issues when she loses her career, IF that actually happens. They are her consequences and whether you decide you want to continue in this marriage (I think you will get that choice by the way) or you decide to leave it, she will remember for the rest of her life what happens when she allowed her poor choices to tarnish her honor.

If there is any group of people that should and most often do understand honor, commitment, and integrity it those of you in the military. Frankly neither she or OM should be in the military until and unless they see how dishonorable their actions have been.

Hang in there Gerka, you are doing very well.

God Bless,

JL

You are doing so well!!!! Proud for you!

I agree!
You are doing great.

Good rational answer, no room for a pissin' contest and no LBing.
Don't give WW reason to justify in her head that her A was 'the only answer to her horrid life'

I agree w/ Jim, she's trying to make sense of everything. How can you be trying to destroy her AND act responsibly and respectfully to her?

Lots of confusion and turmoil going on inside her head right now.

Yup, just picture her head spinning round and round.

Good Morning Gurka!

We're getting some rain here today.... so everything is a muddy mess...

How are you doing this morning? Any more e-mails from your W?

Semper Fi,

RIF

Nope, never heard back after I explained why I put the money in her account. I don't imagine she's even close to being as angry as she's going to get though, it's only been 4 days since "exposure."

Hey Gurka - I suspect that you're right... it will take a while for the investigation to run it's course, and the Cdr won't say a word until the investigation is complete and he has a recommendation from the investigating officer.

I'm pretty sure that both Cdr's have already issued a no contact order... do you still have access to your W's cell phone records? If you find any contact, then I'd send it to the Cdr's as proof of continued contact in violation of Art. 92.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Wife has a secret cell phone that she's been using to communicate since I confronted her. I don't have access to those records. But I did inform the command's about it, and gave them the number for it. Can they obtain the records in the course of their investigation?

Also, "I'll never speak to you again" didn't last very long, as it turns out.

She's doing a pretty good job of following the WS script...


I believe that the investigating officer can request phone records if they used a government phone or a government computer. Not sure if it's a personal phone or PC... might want to ask JAG about this.

Semper Fi,

RIF

There's no JAG here. I figure when I get the divorce papers in the mail I'll take a ride to Camp Phoenix and talk to the SJA about them, and some other questions I have.

I've been thinking, how the heck is she going to explain to the Army why she's filed for divorce now, while I'm deployed overseas. What are the benefits of filing for divorce against my will now, compared with any other time, contrasted with the detraction from my focus on the mission and my combat effectiveness?

These are the kinds of things an Army officer should consider. I don't know how she can answer these questions.

Sounds like a great plan! Until then, I would't worry too much about those divorce papers (even if she DID send them)...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I want compensation from you people if this plan doesn't work, by the way. :P

Also, she did order the MB books during her 3 days of "clarity." I've never known her not to read a book (she has hundreds.) Hopefully if MB got through to her once, it'll get through to her again.

Ummmm, you didn't read the disclaimer?

God's Blessings,

Say

Do you think you could do some sleuthing and get access to those records? Who do you think is the carrier for the phone? If she's in a remote area, there usually aren't many available. You know her information. I'm sure you could set up an online account to view or reset her password with what you know. However, it will usually send a text whenever you set up something online or reset a password.

Yes, I know it's an AT&T phone, and she hasn't even set it up for online account access yet. If I set that up, it would send a text message to her phone. That would likely be illegal, and it seems, unethical.

Hey Gurka!

This plan will work! No matter how this turns out, YOU will be a much better person for having walked this path...

As for the MB books and such, I would NOT bring them up at all for now. There will be a time for that, and if you bring them up now, she will most likely believe that you are trying to educate her (which is a Disrespectful Judgement).

Semper Fi,

RIF

It may be illegal (and it may not be, since you are married), but it is certainly NOT unethical. If I were you and I got home, the first thing I would do when I was in her presence would be to find her affair phone, set up the online account to monitor, and quickly delete the text message. But that's just me. I was monitoring my WW's bank and credit card accounts and after I found the first calling card she purchased to talk to OM from a pay phone so she thought I couldn't track her, she bought another one and threw it away immediately after using it. I still found out because I was checking her purchases and noticed it. I think she gave up trying to get around me at that point. In any mission intelligence is the key.

You do realize that my home (at fort polk) is not her home (at fort huachuca) right? As in, if she doesn't have a dramatic change of heart in the next 3 months, I may never see her again, or may only see her in a court room\law office.

We're not doctors....nor do we play one on TV....

I'm not bringing anything up for now. Like I said I'm waiting for her to say something to me. I feel like anything I would say right now would be wasted since she's probably very angry.

This is the last email she sent me, 3 days ago. Aside from the one last night asking me why I put money in her account. You guys say this is normal WW behavior?

She's trying to get a rise out of you. Continue your plan.

Yes, it is typical. Don't read anything too much into it.

Except, since she mentioned you are ignoring her, I would maybe try to reach out to her a little bit. She's a very insecure person and I think she's afraid that YOU don't want anything to do with HER anymore. Let her gently know that is not the case. Just say something like, "I'm not ignoring you, I just though you wouldn't want to talk to me. I very much would like to hear from you. How are you doing?" Then just let her completely go off on you without you responding. You don't want to completely ignore her, you just want to ignore her provocations. At this point I would slowly, subtly try and engage her and get her to talk to you. If she keeps pressing you about divorce, all you say is, "You know where I stand on that," and let it go. This is where you need to start doing the subtle dance of trying to engage her about anything other than your relationship.

I guess in her mind, 'civilized' people can mess around on each other and expect everything to OK... anything that upsets their world is 'uncivilized'...

She is right, this IS war... you are in a WAR for your M. And you are doing the right things here to give you the best chance possible to rebuild. She may not want to come back, but at least you can say that you did everything possible to try and save it... and you will come out of this with your head head held high.

Semper Fi,

RIF

You don't think it's too soon for that?

Edit: That is, too early to send an email saying: "I'm not ignoring you, and I do still care about you. I'm always here to listen. How are you doing?"

That email is one of several that will follow where she's upset that you're not playing ball with her idealistic and unrealistic expectations of what a "civil" divorce is supposed to be like.

There's no such thing.

I encourage you to not look too much into little transactions between you two as far as things like the bank deposit stuff.

I had moments of civility with my WW and even words of reassurance that things would be ok.

Don't believe any of it.

The best ally you have is one of no expectations. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. Some might say that depositing money in the account to protect your assets is a love bank deposit to her. I'll tell you the reality. She feels she's entitled to whatever you do for her. That's what you're supposed to do. She sees things from a selfish perspective and it likely has nothing to do with her being wayward. She likely views things this way all the time. Her perspective on relationships is that you are there for her and not that it is a partnership.

A WW looking for an out will do whatever is necessary to get you to comply with her plans. The nasty approach will be switched from time to time with the nice approach and all of it will mess with your head.

Expect nothing. Supsect everything. Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see when you when dealing with her.

A lot of people are going to blow sunshine up your butt and tell you that there is hope for your marriage. In my years of posting on here, I've seen many more marriages fail than succeed. There are a few who can do it, but the vast majority that I've witnessed end up divorced.

Sorry to be Debbie Downer, but I'm just trying to be real with you. Are you doing great? Yes, from the standpoint that you're doing all the things you should do regardless of the end result. You're leaps ahead of many BHs here who are paralyzed with fear. I was one of them.

For that I applaud you.

But the bottom line is that you need to expect the worst and hope for the best.

You know what, it is probably too soon to send the email containing the words, I'm not ignoring you. Instead, just write her something sharing about how your day went or something else. It's email, she doesn't have to read it. However, it indirectly lets her know you aren't ignoring her. Is there a funny story of something that happened today? Just something lighthearted, relationship-free, and hopefully it can somewhat meet the EN of conversation.

Back when I exposed, 90% of the time the first two weeks she was just awful and wanted nothing to do with me, but the other 10% we did talk about stupid stuff. Mostly about TV shows (like Idol or Real World or something I could normally care less about, but I knew would interest her) or gossip. Even when she was totally pissed at me, there were a few things she would talk about. I would search online for gossip and forward something juicy on to her. If she read it, great, she'd probably talk to me about it. If not, no big deal. Or she would want to complain about her job, and I'd just intently listen. This is the time when you need to use the creative part of your brain to find ways to get around the wall and meet her ENs. She's got a wall up. You need to find the weak spot in that wall.

I think Jim has a good point regarding contacting her... and HTLD has a very good point about not expecting anything.

The last thing that you want to do is to appear "clingy" or "needy" to her. As long as you can keep your reply along the same lines as "I love you and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to save our M." ...then I agree that it might be a good idea to respond to her last e-mail.

I would NOT send her an e-mail out of the blue telling her how much you love her... only reply to the one that she sent you.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Most of those that fail are because NC is never established between the affair partners. Considering his WW and OM are both military officers and the OM has a wife and kids, there is a much better chance at NC than most have here on the board. There are plenty of recovered relationships including myself.

Let's put it this way, I have rarely seen a woman divorce her husband after the affair is over, provided the woman doesn't start up another affair. Most women want somewhere to land before they divorce, and absent of that, they rarely do. Of course, this does not take into account abuse or their husband cheating, but that is not the case here. Just two weeks ago, his WW was still talking to him like they were going to be together once he got back, so she was still planning on that as long as Gerka did not interfere with her affair.

Sure, Gerka should expect nothing right now, but I don't want him to be hopeless either.

IMO, Gerk has what it takes to get it done.

The A will end in his case, he will go home and I believe get another chance w/ his W.

He has the tools to create a better M thanks to MB and he has the inner strength and self confidence to make it all come together.

I do think you should send her a light email. I wouldn't say "I'm not ignoring you" because she'll just use that to pick a fight. I also wouldn't tell her you love her, because that would just make her angry.

I very much like the idea of a short email mentioning something funny that happened or something you saw that you just wanted to share with her.

She'll probably ignore it or send you a scathing reply, but that's okay. You'll have taken away her ability to say "He's ignoring me" to herself.

Continue to send a fun, short email every few days.

What are her top ENs? I'm guessing conversation is one. What are her others?

Ok, I've come up with:
"I do still care about you and how you're doing. I'm always here to listen whenever you have something to say.

I had a pretty good day off today, slept in until nearly 11, went to lunch (had a cheeseburger and a pile of tomatoes ) watched the Simpsons for a while and hit the gym for an ab work out. Then steak, lobster & grilled asparagus for dinner. "

GO or NO GO on that email? She LOVES tomatoes, that's why I mentioned it.


Affection, conversation, honest & openness are her top 3 ENs.

I agree w/ the others about sending a light/fun e-mail.

Your W told you how much pursuing her meant to her when you didn't insist she come to you so you could say good-bye to her.

Now she told you she didn't want you to ignore her.

Listen to her!

But, definitely keep it light.

That's fine. I would send out these emails about once every other day. Maybe (probably) she'll eventually send one back about how she's doing.

Man, they are feeding you well over there. Steak AND lobster? Sign me up.

Steak, lobster, and grilled asparagus?
Is life that rough over there or are you pulling our collective leg?

GO on the email

Shot out on the email. We'll see if I get anything back.

Yeah Fridays is steak & either lobster or crab legs with grilled asparagus. It's not particularly good steak, but the seafood is usually pretty decent. It's enough to make people look forward to it anyway.

Just so you are prepared, here will be her response:

"If you cared about me you would have never betrayed me by telling my CO. I'm never telling you anything again. You'll just use it against me. I hope you choked on your steak and lobster. Just sign the divorce papers I sent you."

Again, this will be better than no response at all, and even if she doesn't respond to this one, she eventually will.

Good job, Gerk!

I strongly, strongly agree.

Actually, I think it should have been done sooner. Whenever I get an email from my wife saying she's feeling lonely or ignored, I try to respond ASAP.

I think I might even include an apology for not replying earlier.

"Sorry, I was just so taken aback that you thought I was ignoring you that I wasn't sure what to say. I'm definitely not ignoring you, and ..." and then use those other suggestions.

A lot of those people are people who have worked right through this.


Can you give us other IDs you've posted under so we can read your story? It appears you've been posting four five months.

I'm sorry to be the Debbie Downer of this thread, but everything Gerk has posted about his marriage and his wife indicates that this is a woman that has big issues that aren't going to change once NC is established.

If OM disappears forever, you're still left with a woman that has massive, unresolved psych issues, huge self esteem problems, a craving for male attention, immaturity, unrealistic expectations of marriage, a broken career, and then the sloppy seconds of another man.

Gerk, I hope for a miracle, but the odds are high that you will end up divorced, but that such an outcome may ultimately the best thing that could possibly happen to you.

I could be wrong and she could suddenly see the light, go to NC, start deep therapy, and grow up massively, but that is highly unlikely.

She might be marriage material in 10 years or so, once she's been burned a few times.

You have much life to live in the meantime.

I know you wish to save your marriage and I respect that. Keep doing the thigns you're being advised to do. Just keep your expectations very low.

Understand that I'm not rooting for failure or am saying, "Rah! Rah! Divorce!"

This situation sucks to go through, especially when deployed, but getting rid of this broken woman and finding someone deserving of your love and attention once you've healed could be the greatest thing that could happen to you.

Seriously, it would be great to see a miracle, but women with your WW's personality seldom grow up and develop maturity unless they hit rock bottom first. She strikes me as one of those women that are so needy that they must have a man in their life, regardless of who it is, in order for them to feel happy.

Women that needy have massive issues.

Nope. Wish I could, but I can't.

Those who know my writing style, know who I am some some I speak to offline know who I was. Circumstances don't let me say more.

Bingo.

And let me make an observation: you have the kind of wife who, for now, is going to require you to figure out what she wants yourself and do that. Your job is to know more about her emotional needs than she does. When you get statements like these, count yourself lucky, and act on them! (But don't act without thinking. )

Understood.


I don't think you know jack about it, and if you continue to try to discourage someone who is doing so wonderfully, my plan is to report you to the moderators.

Work out your own issues and demons without troubling others.

Gerka heard you. We don't need to keep dwelling on this any longer. He's made his decision. We all know your thoughts on the matter. Let's focus on helping Gerka work his plan instead of telling him it won't work. He very well may come to that conclusion on his own in the future, but it needs to be him that comes to that conclusion, not you. Working a good plan A isn't hurting anyone at this moment. Trust me, I understand where you are coming from, and I share a lot of the same sentiment, but it is not up to us to decide whether or not his marriage is worth saving. Only he knows his WW and his relationship. Gerka has shown a lot of strength and maturity beyond his years, so I'm going to trust he knows what he is doing on this one.

A reminder of what Marriage Builders actually says about these issues, since it is different from what helpthelostdads seems to be saying:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5019_qa.html


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2356918#Post2356918

A couple of other related articles:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8115_prob.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html

A reminder, from the top of this page:

I'm pretty sure I know who he is. His WW was worse than most.

I'm glad that I didn't "get rid" of Mrs. RIF... she was about as broken as they come... had MULTIPLE affairs... you name an issue, and Mrs. RIF probably had it.

The "greatest thing" that's happened to me is that God healed and is rebuilding my marriage with Mrs. RIF.

Semper Fi,

RIF

I set up the cell phone I got my wife at Christmas to get her email through exchange push, so she receives emails instantly. Still haven't heard anything, I have no idea what she's doing since her last "job" ended on the 20th.

To be honest my WW does tend towards selfishness and self-centeredness. Her big problem at OCS was that she wasn't making any friends, and it was really bothering her, she was calling me crying about no one liking her, she said because she was doing so much better than them. I told her to try to talk about herself less with other people, and ask about them, because she tends to domineer conversations and steer them that way, which turns people off. This turned into, "Great, I tell you what a hard time I'm having and you tell me I'm a jerk!" She was in a vulnerable position to be befriended by OM.

She just wanted you to LISTEN to her. Sympathize w/ her. Not solve her problems.

Your W is young. She has ALOT to learn. Most 25 year olds ARE immature! She will grow and change.

You know what's really depressing? Talking to people she went to OCS with and having them tell me, "yeah, she gave off a bad vibe for a married woman, I stayed far away from her. There were rumors of her with XXXXXXX and XXXXXX...."

Hey Gurka,

Ditto what Marshmallow said...

Took me a while to learn that when Mrs. RIF wanted to talk about a problem, that she just needed for me to listen.

I'm an engineer, so I like to "fix" things! Well, I've learned that Mrs. RIF will let me know if she wants me to solve something for her... otherwise, I know that my job is to just listen to her!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Markos,

I'm glad you have faith in the system. I think it works with people who stray, as we are all at risk of doing, yet can still be brought back into the fold.

I've been on this board for nearly four years. I have seen many more marriages fail from infidelity than succeed, especially when a WW is involved. Seems like the WHs have a slightly higher chance of coming to their senses, but I have very very rarely seen it in the WW's.

Feel free to report me to the moderators if you wish, but I believe I made it clear that I really hope for a miracle for Gerka. Reality, however, has turned me into the salty dog I've become in regards to infidelity and WW'es.

Stating such, and doing it in a respectful manner, is not forbidden, as far as I know.

It does bother me to see young guys who have no children with WW'es spend months, even years, hanging on to women unworthy of their attention. They're stuck on someone when there are thousands of more deserving women out there. I see this more often in young guys in their twenties who are hung up on romantic notions and are so blinded in their own grief and fog that they can't see the situation for what it is.

A young woman who cheats so soon into a marriage is not worthy of being married to. There's much too much life to live to hang on to such a person, especially where no children are in the picture.

Why settle for sloppy seconds and go through the pain and anguish of recovery with someone like that?

Gerka is choosing to try. I respect that. At the same time, I'm not going to pee on his leg and tell him it's raining when experience on this board has shown me that the odds for him are very low.

I'm giving Gerka the advice I wish I had gotten back when I dealt with my situation.

By all means, expose, end the affair, and then see where you stand. If you end it, do so on your terms. That will give you closure.

If she returns, however, then approach with caution and maker her earn your trust back.

I can tell stories of several guys on these boards that hung on for months, even years, on women who went from OM1 to OM2, 3, 4 etc. All the while, they put their own lives on hold and waited and waited.

This situation puts a real burden on a person's heart. I'm willing to bet Gerk could take his blood pressure and find it abnormally high. Years of that takes it's toll, as I have discovered.

It's also good for Gerka to hear different viewpoints and weigh all his options.

Hey Gurka,

Yes, it is depressing... if you sit and FOCUS on it.

You already know that your W has acted inapropriately and is involved in an A... you can't change that.

You CAN change your thought patterns... try and focus on the positive things that you are doing now to end the A.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Nor is pointing out when what you say contradicts the standard Marriage Builders line, which has worked for many people.


That sounds like Marriage Builders to me. Are you worried that someone is telling him differently?


I don't think Marriage Builders recommends spending years in this kind of situation. 3-4 weeks for women, 6 months for men, is standard.


It's also good for him to know when people's viewpoints are not consistent with this program, which has worked for many people.

Mrs. RIF was 18. I was 24.



This is a very disrespectful comment. So does that mean that I "settled" for sloppy 7ths??? Please, if you wish to make comments like this, please find another forum.



I agree 100%! Mrs. RIF had her first A while I was in my basic course, had 6 more while we were assigned over seas during our first thee years of M. Didn't confess to the othe A's until December 2000. Took us 2.5 years to rebuild. So, lets see.... what was that, about 15 years of a burdened/broken heart.

For me, I have no regrets.

Semper Fi,

RIF

From the rules of conduct:

This comment is VERY disrespectful and offensive to ALL of the BSes here who have recovered their marriages. Wish there was a "boo-hiss" emoticon right about now.

I don't think Dr. H would refer to our FWS as "sloppy seconds".

RIF,

I'm glad things worked out for you. Your FWW's age says a lot. Most of us, men or women, don't have much maturity at that age and I think we're even more at risk for failing in marriage when so young.

My expectations for a woman in her mid-20s who is supposed to be an officer and know better are much higher than for an 18 year old of any background or gender.

I'm glad you made it work. I hope Gerka can do the same. But nothing he's posted so far tells me that this is a woman that is going to be changing much or growing up anytime soon.

Did you settle for sloppy seconds? That's a question only you can answer. You felt it was ok to be with a woman that was with 7 different guys while married to you. I was willing to forgive a woman who was on dates with multiple guys as well. It was a price I was willing to pay in order to keep my family intact.

I know me, however, and I know that the amount of cheating, especially while I was deployed and in harms way, would have eaten at me over the years. It would have been a mountain for me to climb in my mind. Could I have done it? Hard to say.

I feel indifference towards my ex now, but I'm not married to her anymore and am very glad I'm not.

Gerka, friends provide invaluable input. What do people who know both of you tell you? What does your family think?

Age and maturity has less to do with it than an empty Love Bank.

My family is disappointed but forgiving. They've always loved her.

Her family won't speak to me. I don't know what she told them, but apparently her mother is concerned for her safety. That coupled with the "you're scaring me, I don't want to see you" have me baffled. I've never in my life physically threatened her, even during all of these recent events.

Hey Gurka,

The "safety" thing and "you're scaring me" are most likely natural protective actions by her family... now you're W's motivation is probably more in line with trying to protect her A activities.

I wouldn't worry too much about these comments other than being careful about what you say to her. As for her family, I wouldn't worry about them for now... your focus is on your M, not your relationship with your in-laws.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Nobody expects a person in your situation to do what you are doing, such as exposing the affair. It's to the point that many people will think you are unhinged or unbalanced because you are doing it. Therefore you are a "danger." If you did something so "crazy" as to expose the adultery, then you might do something "crazy" like get violent, or so the reasoning goes.

No disrespect was intended. That's how I know I would have felt over time towards my WW and it is a feeling many BS's wrestle with. The sentiment may not be expressed in such words, but it's there.

The mods know who I am, my story, and my circumstance.

I'm not going to sugarcoat the situation for BS'es on here. Yes, MB is a great plan to use if you do finally get to the point that you can try to head down the road to recovery. But my experience on this board tells me it's the exception and not the rule.

If you saved your marriage, then congrats. You're one of the lucky few. I haven't seen it happen often on these boards.

Gerka, I'm not going to sugarcoat anything. The reality is what it is. You have a young wife who has cheated on you from the very beginning. By your own admission, she has MASSIVE self esteem issues. She is very insecure and a very high maintenance woman. Your fellow OCS classmates have told you that she wasn't marriage material.

If you feel like rescuing this marriage with those circumstances, then you have that right. I'm merely telling you that there is an alternative which you can puruse since you deserve better than to settle for this.

Children with this woman would be a disaster. The odds of her cheating again are very high.

So do you really want to be going through all of this again in the future, but then have to wrestle with the impact of divorce on a five year old child?

Your wife needs to do a lot more than end the affair and come back to you. Massive therapy is called for to help her deal with her self esteem issues and childhood abuse.

You can't fix that. You can only work on you and nothing more. I had to learn that the hard way. I tried going down your road. I had a fiance who was bipolar. I had a wife with childhood abuse issues and who also had big self esteem problems.

I have a history of being attracted to damsels in distress and a desire to show them how good they could be or should be treated. My first ex fiance is on her fourth marriage and has cheated on every one of her husbands. My exww still has big psych issues and I'm very glad she's someone else's problem now.

I'm very happy I no longer have her in my life. She would have sucked out my soul and destroyed me as a man because all these years later she hasn't changed. She has a great guy in her life right now and all the people I know who know them feel sorry for him and don't understand why he lets himself be used by her.

I'm happy I'm not that man anymore. What I'm saying to you is that the cross you have to bear with this woman is MASSIVE. This isn't a normal woman that got sucked into an affair she didn't expect because of a lack of maturity. There is much more at play with her than a lack of maturity or poor boundaries.

She has big time psych issues which will take years to resolve.

I'm all for trying to save your marriage after infidelity, but there's a difference between saving a marriage with someone who can change or who strayed from her values and doing so with someone who is fundamentally broken inside and needs massive help to get to a healthy place.

I'm giving you things to chew on as a man who has been in your shoes in very similar circumstances. RIF was as well. He was able to save things and make it work. I didn't. Both inputs are valid for their own reasons and both situations are worth digesting and thinking about.

My ultimate point to you is that you deserve better. You have no children and have a biblically acceptable reason to divorce. Given your age and what you have to offer someone, I don't think anyone could blame you or look down on you for walking away from this marriage.

You deserve much more than this. If your wife has a miraculous transformation, then great. I just haven't seen it happen often.

Expect her family to stick by her. Again, I'm not going to sugarcoat anything. You wouldn't be the first man on this board to have false charges of abuse dropped on him. You don't have to look far on here to find men who are stuck with restraining orders or false accusations. PSUB is one example. I had similar allegations against me.

Document everything. Say nothing that can be interpretted as threatening. Be calm at all times. Express your concerns about false allegations to your chain of command.

You have a career to protect as well.

Please excuse the TJ Gurka...

Hi HTLD,

I respect your input here and yes, it is important for Gurka to understand the "other" options open to him. Having said that, Gurka has decided to work on saving his M. I respect that just as I would respect his decision to divorce his wife and walk away.

I took my marriage vows seriously. For Better or Worse is so easy to say, but what does it really mean?

For me, it meant that even though my wife was "fundamentally broken inside" and "needed massive help to get to a healthy place", that I my vow to her was to just that. This was definitely a "worse" time in our very young marriage.

I don't look down on anyone that decided to not work through their WS's adultery and divorce, and I'm not saying that anyone that divorces doesn't take their vows just as seriously as I do... I'm just trying to point out the fact that we should respect Gurka's desicion to work on his M and offer him positive ways to do so. Continued statements of how "bad" is situation is aren't helping him.

As for "success" stories here, there are many. I've been on here since 2002 and there are MANY recovered marriages. You don't see many of them because at some point, they have rebuilt their marriage and no longer need or want to post here.

I normally don't post here unless I'm deployed. Mrs. RIF and I are blessed and we continue to work on our M, even while I'm over here. I post here in order to help others that are hurting and to offer proof that it IS possible to rebuild...

I will be the first one to tell a new member that this will be THE hardest thing that they will ever take on... and I will let them know that there are no short cuts. I don't sugar coat things, but I do hope that in some small way that my posts can provide a glimmer of hope for a hurting BS.

Semper Fi,

RIF

helpthelostdads,

You said

Interesting comment coming from someone who spent a long time on this board focused on himself.

I have been on this site since Feb 99 and registered Aug 99. That is working out to close to 11 years and I have seen absolute miracles worked on this site. I have seen ordinary couples with many problems NOT JUST AFFAIRs rebuild their marriages and I have some situations that were just horrible make it.

I have no idea how Gerka's situation will turn out, but I am confident that he will come out of this a better man and a better husband to some women whether it is his current W or another. However, one only learns by doing and the plan and process that Gerka is in right now, will serve HIM well no matter what happens with his W.

Not all marriage can be saved, but I can say with certitude that Gerka will be helped and he won't regret trying to save his marriage.

JL

PS: I don't know if Gerka does but I find your assumption that Gerka is stupid enough to have not considered that this won't work out offensive. He KNOWS how things can turn out badly he is in a combat zone for God's sake. You make you statement now let the man get on with his plan.

I am right there with you helpthelostdads!

I'm pretty sure I know who HLD is.

HLD- the sloppy seconds comment you made was uncalled for and more than that-cruel.

You can get your point across without being cruel- and it has nothing to do with not "sugar coating" the truth.

I think the most valuable input for someone WHO WANTS TO SAVE HIS MARRIAGE, comes from people who have saved theirs.

Well, this isn't the reply from WW I was expecting:
You are insane to think that we are even on speaking terms after what you did to me. Fortunately, I think most other officers think it is pretty despicable for an officer to use the army to try to arbitrate their personal problems, especially when that includes accusing another officer of completely unfounded criminal charges. The next time you speak to me you should plan for there to be a lawyer or a judge present.

Honestly it makes my blood boil for her to say "completely unfounded criminal charges" when she told me herself exactly what she was doing. She knows they're very well founded.

I agree 100%.

HTLD is like a broken record. In fact his first two posts on this thread were EXACTLY word for word the same.

HTLD,

Gerka heard what you said, and has rejected it.

He WANTS to try to save his marriage.

I honestly don't know how to respond to that email? Thoughts? Ideas?

She wasn't writing it for you.

Now you know they are going to deny the A.

Which is why I still think it was OM who wrote you that e-mail. He wanted you to say what you did wrong in the M so he could use that as his defense. To say, Look, he even admits what was wrong w/ their M...it had nothing to do w/ me.

Just sit on that e-mail for a bit...let others offer up suggestions.