Hi, everyone!

I am new to the forums (although I have printed out the EN questionnaire before and used it). My situation is kind of complex, but here goes.
My wife and I have been married almost 2 years (8/8/08), and are really happy. She had an affair back in 2006 with my best friend and things were rough until we moved out of state a year later. Things got a lot better in my mind until I found out that she and him were still contacting each other. This was before I found this website.
At the time, I wanted her to have NC with him because the thought that she was still in contact with him made me uneasy. I mentioned this to her a couple times and backed off each time out of fear that I would be "pushing her towards him".
She and I are going to counseling whenever we get the chance, but I feel myself constantly wanting to look at the phone records, IM logs, etc. My job requires me to be in front of a computer most of the time, so I try to find answers on various forums on the internet, some helpful, and some not so helpful.
One day I found myself looking at her phone records and I found she had been talking to him, but I knew that she was still talking to him, since I hadn't actually gone through with the NC with her. I was extremely distressed that day and a couple of my coworkers recommended that I go home and look at this website and His Needs, Her Needs.
I haven't purchased the book yet, but I have been looking at a lot of material on the website, including the basic concepts and most of the information on Surviving an Affair. I feel like this is really good material and have hope that this, along with suggestions from the forum posters that I've heard so many good things about, will finally get our marriage to where it should be.
I talked to one of the coworkers this morning and he reiterated that there should be NC between WW and OM. I went home for lunch and spilled it (she can tell whenever something's wrong). Now she thinks that I'm just suggesting the NC because the website "told me to" and got angry and defensive about it.
On one hand, I can kind of understand where she is coming from. I haven't actually taken any action with the previous requests for NC, so she was under the assumption that things will be better even though she still talks to him. Also, I have felt (and told her) that, even if she were to cut off all contact, I will think that she is still in contact with him.
I guess my main questions are:

1. Is it possible to get past an affair even without NC?
2. How do I explain to her why the NC is necessary?
3. How do we keep the NC, how do I know that it's working, and how does the anxiety go away after NC?

I will post more details as they become available, but any advice is welcomed and appreciated!!!

Thanks!

She cheated on you before you married and hasn't stopped?

Do you have kids?

Welcome to MB. Here are some short answers, to get you started:


No. It's not. No exceptions. If you don't believe that, just keep reading for the countless horror stories posted here where people tried to "recover" with the OP still in the picture.


Because if she refuses to stop talking to a man who threatens and interferes with her marriage, she is making it plain to YOU that she values this Other Man's company more than she values her marriage.


All of this is her job. If she refuses, you've got your answer.

Wow, she had an affair with your best friend early in the marriage, and she can't figure out why they should have no contact? She ought to be thanking her lucky stars that you didn't boot her out.

Exactly when was the marriage great?

Mulan, that was perfect.

Then why is she in contact with OM?


Here's your answer when she asks why you want NC.

What does this mean?


I can't see where she's coming from at all. Just tell her that this has to happen. Why in the world would she resist NC if it's something you want? Why in the world would she make talking to another man - especially one she slept with - more important than your wishes?

You're going to have to do some snooping to ensure NC. Read about Spy Tools on this site.

Btw, Welcome to MB. Sorry you have to be here, but you've come to the right place.

Sorry you are here AH but welcome.

Mulan is exactly right, there is no way around NC. Unfortunately, most waywards would continue contact with their OP if they could get away w/it. That's why Dr Harley has developed Plan A (shows WS a willingness to meet ENs, avoiding lovebusters) followed by Plan B if the WS refuses NC... (Don't talk to your W about any of this stuff for now!)

You need to get your Plan A(I will post some info on this) together as your WW has never actually ended her affair...it sounds like it just shifted from PA to EA once you moved out of state. She has been cake-eating, having her ENs met by both of you for 2+ yrs so (as you found out when you talked to her today) she is definitely going to resist giving OM up.

Is OM married? Do you have any kids?

No, she cheated before we were married, and although she is still in contact with him, there has been no indications that the relationship is any more than friendship. We have thought and talked about kids, but I don't want to think about starting a family until this is behind us.


I guess the reason I asked this is because I didn't know if I was going to get past this eventually without the NC, saving both me and WW the grief.


What's making this hard for me is her suggesting that being nothing more than friends with him and her promises to not allow herself to be put into a position where it would happen again would be enough to save our marriage without giving up her friend.


The reason that I haven't booted her out is that, aside from this situation, our relationship has been great. When we moved out of state for me to go to school, I put the affair behind me, at least temporarily, and things were great until I found out that she was still in contact with him. Aside from the NC, she has been very willing to do whatever it takes to save the relationship. We started going to individual weekly counseling about a month ago, but due to financial troubles, we haven't been able to go recently.


OM is not married to my knowledge.

I just got an e-mail back from her and if there are any FWH or FWW's reading the forums, I would be very interested in their thoughts. She has told me that she feels that me suggesting the NC makes her feel like I don't think she's strong enough to handle the situation. She also suggests that the open and constant communication that I recommended to her from this website will help in preventing a future A. She has mentioned to me in the past when I would bring up NC that it's not who the NC is with that makes her upset, it's me "taking away her choice to speak to a friend".
I wanted to believe that this marriage would work without the NC so that we wouldn't have to go through these rough times and conversations. She feels as if I will feel she is still talking to him even after the NC. Thinking about the future, I can't say that my feelings of anxiety and paranoia will go away whether she follows the NC or not, which is why I haven't been as "forceful" with the NC as I probably should have been.

HOLY COW! She feels that you suggesting NC makes her feel like you don't think she's strong enough to handle the situation???????????

Obviously she wasn't strong enough, she betrayed her vows to you within months of the marriage. And a double betrayal at that with your friend.

Good firm boundaries, not strength is what keeps people faithful.

And she needs to honor you as her husband by NOT having contact with the man that threatened your marriage.

Please be careful not to have any little ones.

You have made a huge mistake by marrying this woman. This is going to be your future. The problem here is not that she won't end contact, but that she has ALWAYS cheated on you.

I would implore you to get out of this marriage. Not only is she a cheater, but you do not have the ability to erect sane boundaries to protect yourself or any future children. She did not do this because of a bad marriage, but because lying and cheating is a way of life for her.

Don't have children and drag innocent children into your bad choices. Please get out now while the getting is good. It will be short term pain for long term gain. The alternative is short term pain and a LIFETIME of pain for you and your children.

This is very telling. She is justifying her CRUEL behavior and lack of boundaries by gaslighting you. Basically she is refusing to take even the first step in affair proofing your marriage. That means she doesnt care about your feelings and doesn't care if your marriage is affair proofed.

You have your answer right there. She is not marriage material, AH. Get out now while you can.

She's not. No one is. If she were really strong, she'd put up boundaries against an intrusive man who is a serious threat to her marriage.


Communication as in, you'll believe whatever she chooses to tell you? Or as in, you get to see what she is typing to her boyfriend (because that's what he is) and have that rubbed in your face?

She is negotiating to keep her boyfriend in the picture. Don't fall for it.


Friends don't intrude in your marriage. This man is no "friend". He is your WW's boyfriend. She will resist that term, but she can call him a ham sandwich if she wants and he'll still be someone that she values more than she values her husband.

Next she'll be calling you "controlling".

This will eat you alive every minute of every day untill there's nothing left of your marriage. Spouses have to put each other first. They can't be putting "friends" first. If they don't put each other first, they end up divorced because of the massive disrespect and neglect that comes from putting a "friend" first.

This is a deadly serious problem and it will destroy your marriage if she refuses to stop (and she won't stop as long as she thinks she can manipulate and bully you into going along with it.) She loves having two men to take care of her and she will massively resist giving up that arrangement. Be prepared for a very nasty fight.

ITA with believer. Please do not think of bringing any children into this.

Only an INSANE person would not feel anxiety and paranoia with such an irresponsible, cruel, untrustworthy person. Anxiety and paranoia will become your WAY OF LIFE.

THIS IS YOUR FUTURE.

I understand all the posters suggesting that I end this marriage, but what's making it difficult for me is that aside from the NC, is that she has been very open and willing to do anything to help our marriage. She has willingly given me her phone to look at texts and phone calls, as well as given me passwords to all her e-mail accounts, Facebook, etc. She has gone to counseling and is still willing to go to couples counseling with me. Reading this website and the responses to my post have opened my eyes to realize how difficult it would be for her to go through with the NC. I think that, with enough of the right "ammunition", I can convince her to follow through with the NC and end this once and for all. I feel that this website has knocked down some of these A "walls", and I guess I'm just figuring out the right way to tear down this last wall. I'm thinking about telling her that I will feel paranoid and anxious as long as he's still in the picture and she risks me breaking down gradually or finding something that may be harmless and taking it the wrong way, causing the D. If I make it sound like that's what will happen if this continues, and follow Plan B for a while, maybe she will cut it off on her own. I believe that's my only option other than D.

HUH? Stick around and read some more.

You don't need to find something harmless and take it the wrong way. Contact with her former lover is not harmless. It is disrespectful to you and the fact that she doesn't seem to realize it makes me wonder. It is common sense.

And by the way, how does it make you feel to read texts between your wife and the friend that had sex with her?

She probably doesn't realize it as much as she thinks she does...she probably also believes that I will eventually get past it on my own and that there's a chance that she will get to "keep" both of us. More reason to tell her what would happen if she keeps in contact with him as I was describing above.


Kind of a double whammy. At first, I feel sick because they are still communicating. After a while, I feel guilty for invading her privacy, even though she said it's okay.

From the new book by Dr. Harley, Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

This is your wife, she does not have a right to privacy, AH. Everything she does or says impacts your life, so you have a right to know everything she does. A spouse does not have any "privacy rights." That is silly.

It's not so much that I feel guilty specifically at looking at her privacy, but guilt in general at doing something that would, under normal circumstances, be wrong.

I would rethink that. If you are doing nothing wrong, then it is not really guilt, and your discomfort would be inappropriate.

Also, since your wife is untrustworthy, I would not tell her about your snooping and most especially about the resources you use. She should NEVER be told how you snoop on her.

Right, that's what cake-eaters do, they do/say what they need to so that you will let them continue contact. I know it's going to hurt to hear it, but she knows you have weak boundaries ~ and she is manipulating & gaslighting you. Please do not fool yourself into thinking she is just simply naive about how important NC would be for your M.

Please understand, Recovery is hard...very hard. Much of what binds my H and I and has motivated us to do the hard work necessary is our long M history pre-A and our children. I can really understand the advice you are getting to reconsider if you really want to try to fight for this.

For some reason you seem to be hesitant or possibly afraid to demand that your wife cease contact with her affair partner (AP), why is that? One would question why you would marry someone who cheated on you before marriage, but that�s pretty much a moot point now. But your wife�s refusal to cease contact with her AP (not ex-AP because it sounds like the affair continues to this day) speaks volumes about the contempt that she has for you and your marriage. What good is having her passwords, etc, when she is carrying on with this guy, all with your knowledge and seeming acceptance?

That's like saying Hitler was a good guy except for the concentration camps.

As others have said, "no contact" should be non-negotiable.

Here's a simple, yet effective response to the "it's alright, he's just a friend" argument.

Nobody puts their marriage in such a risky position for "just a friend".

Nobody rips apart families and alienates everyone that cares about them for "just a friend."

That usually stops the silly "just a friend" argument dead in its tracks.

You are reluctantly willing to participate in her polyandrous union. It doesn't matter that she isn't currently f'ing him; she is emotionally involved.

Over time, reluctant willingness, also known as "Resistance to What Is", creates a lot of disharmony in the person who refuses to choose one way or the other. You can either choose to be joyful as a man whose wife has a boyfriend, or you can choose to end the situation even if that means you file for divorce.

I've seen this situation before. A man I worked with had a wife who had a boyfriend. The wife and her boyfriend were able to avoid being physical due to all the blocks the three of them put in place. That didn't make sense to me. Put in blocks? Why not simply choose to NOT go there. Why not just end the whole boyfriend thing? After three years, she got pregnant by the husband. After five years, the wife and boyfriend got tired of the blocks. She would "make" the husband stay out in the living room keeping the toddler entertained while she and the boyfriend went to the bedroom to screw.

We co-workers never could get this man, the husband, to remove his balls from her purse. I changed jobs but a few years later I heard that he had killed himself in front of their son.

I think you need individual counseling and a never-ending supply of condoms so that you can do your best to prevent bringing a child into this situation. I feel very badly for you. I think you chose her as a wife and married her knowing that she had f'd your "best friend" because of some issues you seriously need to deal with.

Please get her out of your life. Take a stand for yourself. Find a good woman and make a great family for yourself.

I know this is Marriage Builders so maybe my post is wrong. I hope you get a chance to read this before mods delete it.

I wish you well.

This post is spot on. Ditch her yesterday!

When the two of you married, you became ONE. You have the right to know everything your 'other half' is doing. EVERYTHING.

The problem is that single people have a lifetime to learn independent behavior, and many continue that behavior when they enter into marriage. THAT'S the wrong thing, not your right to examine every aspect of your 'other half's' life.

She can shut the bathroom door long enough to go potty. That's about all the privacy I would give her. That's what my FWH gets and he's happy as a clam with it. Sometimes he even leaves the bathroom door open...gotta talk to him about that...some things I really just don't need to have full knowledge of...

Again, seriously, LOSE this mindset. You married. You became ONE FLESH. If you were spying on your neighbor that would be wrong. If you were spying on the mailman that would be wrong. They are private people and you should have no access to their lives.

This is your partner in life. This is your other half we're talking about. The two of you became ONE. It would be wrong to NOT maintain the sanctity and security of your M by allowing IB.

Just the thread name makes me ill. You don't 'request' NC.

OP, you need to use your pair here. You are being blatantly disrespected and it hurts to watch.

I have a male friend who loves to golf. I love to golf. There have been a couple of occasions before my H's A when I golfed with this guy by myself - just the two of us, golfing for an afternoon while my H was at work and I had the day off. I never thought twice about it, and yes, we truly are "just friends."

It never occurred to me that my friendship with him was IB until I found this site. I have no interest in him romantically at all, but after I found this site I realized that I put our M in a vulnerable position by even innocently golfing with this guy. I had NO problem altering that friendship in order to keep my M safe.

Post-A, I exposed my H's A to my friend and explained that it was unacceptable for me - ME! and I wasn't the betrayer! - to golf alone with him. That in the future any golf outings we wanted to attend would also have to be attended with at least one of our spouses present.

I had no problem doing that. It was an important EP for our M.

Not Just Friends.

Be sure to look at the quizzes that demonstrate vulnerability within the marriage lifestyle.

Much of the late Dr Glass' research supports the work of Dr Harley though some of her methods did not reflect the MB process. I think she id at some point come to the realization that the MB model for recovery from an affair was the best solution, but most of her research actually focused on the causes and basis for infidelity rather than on the recovery.

Well, here's an update:

I talked to her last night and told her exactly what I said here. I told her that the choice would ultimately be up to her, but added that, if she continued to talk to him, she would be driving me away. Yes, it sounds like I let her off easy, but I know how she works, and actually made some progress!
We spent a little time apart yesterday, and when we met back up inside the house, she told me that she took care of it. She removed his number from her phone, as well as from Myspace and Facebook. She also said that she called him and told him they couldn't be friends anymore. I know it's not quite what the book/website suggest, but I'm glad that we made some progress. After that, she pretty much immediately went into withdrawal, getting angry, although after a few hours, the anger turned into depression and she started crying and telling me that she was sorry and that she didn't want me to leave. Both of our LB are fairly low right now, but today I'm going to start attempting to build the balance back up.

Now she needs to change her cell phone # and her e-mail address. Taking his # out of her phone does not prevent him from contacting her anymore than asking him not to does. You need to read up on EP (extraordinary precautions)

Don't give up the resource of these forums by telling her about it. You need the advice and support here to get you through until she is through withdrawal and you need continuous monitoring of your WW until you begin to feel safe. If she objects to this start looking for a secret cell phone because she is continuing contact.



God's Blessings,

Say

Make sure you spy very well.

I'd bet anything she contacts him within 24 hours.

AH, I would download flexispy on her phone and watch what she does. I suspect she just went further underground. You can get it here: flexispy.com. There is a cheaper version that is $149. I would watch her like a hawk, she is manipulative and untrustworthy.

Yeah, I've read most of the extraordinary precautions, and we will work our way there. I'm glad that some progress has been made, and although I know things are going to be hard for a little while, I want to make this as least difficult as possible.

I'm not going to bash you for not following the advice from many on this forum on how to break up the affair. I just want to make sure you know the likelihood of what's really going on.

1) She may very well have done everything she says here, and even may have the best intentions of carrying it out. However, from my own experience and from tons of others on this very forum, the chance of it being "over" when the wayward spouse takes care of it on their own is extremely small. Chances are the withdrawal will become too much and she will contact him again, or he will call her to pry as to why they can't still be friends, what she wants to do (barf) etc., and she will weaken.

2) Or, she has no intention of stopping the "friendship" and is just throwing you off track to take it underground.

Either way, there is about a 1% chance that it will end here and now. I'm sorry for your situation and wish it was different. I, too, wanted to believe my spouse and trust that she was strong enough to do it on her own.

"if she continued to talk to him, she would be driving me away"
How nice of you, to leave it all open-ended like that.

"We spent a little time apart yesterday, and when we met back up inside the house, she told me that she took care of it."
If a wayward's mouth is moving, they are lying, ah. Lying. How do you plan to verify this?

"She also said that she called him and told him they couldn't be friends anymore."
What time are you calling him this morning to verify this?

"I know it's not quite what the book/website suggest, but I'm glad that we made some progress."

You have just driven her underground.

You say 'we' will work our way - is your WW on board with doing that?

As much as I wish this wasn't the case, this wouldn't surprise me. I will give her some time today to rest, since the withdrawal has probably took all the energy she has, but I will be checking up on her.



Well, unfortunately, I don't have that kind of money right now to purchase that. If she has gone further underground, as you say, one of two things will happen. Either she is actually able to hide it from me well enough so that I never find out (highly unlikely), or more likely, she will slip up somewhere and once I find out, I'm gone. As was mentioned a little earlier in this thread, the only thing that I can actually control is whether I stay or leave, and that's in the hands of WW.

Edit to all the new posts: To add on to the her going underground posts, my job is as a computer programmer, so I have my own ways to find out what is going on, and she knows that if I find anything (she doesn't know the extent of what I can dig up), the marriage is over.

If you were looking at private messages from a woman you weren't married to, then, yes, under normal circumstances that would be wrong.

But under normal circumstances, looking at private messages from a woman you ARE married to is NOT wrong. And being married is perfectly normal.

Did somebody teach you that it was wrong for a man to find out what his wife is doing?

I don't know why anyone would want your post deleted. I do know that your post posits only two options, and Marriage Builders poses a third option: motivate your spouse to follow the Marriage Builders program. Doing that, a woman can learn to become a good wife, a husband can learn to become a good husband. This is not something people are born with: being a good spouse is learned behavior.

I would encourage anyone with a bad marriage to consider giving it their all with the full Marriage Builders program first before leaving. (And I would then encourage anyone with an unfaithful spouse who has given it their all not to feel any shame afterward if leaving is necessary.)

That's what I'm trying to do at this time. I know that it will be a long and painful process, but I'm not ready to give up yet. I came here for advice on enforcing NC, and so far, it seems to be working. As I said before, I will have my eyes on what she's doing, and if there's any indication to me that the NC has been broken, the marriage will be as well.

I would also bet real $$ she will take this underground. The phone call that she made to OM was, I'm sure, something along the lines of "AnotherHopeful found a website and is insisting on NC, and we need to stop talking for now until we figure something else out."

Do you have access to the phone bill? Does it detail who text messages go to? Also I would be on the lookout in her car/purse for a hidden 2nd cell phone. I am assuming you have since you are a computer guy, but did you install a keylogger on the computer?

I have been thinking about your timeline and sitch and wanted to ask you ~ Are you open to the possibility that this has been an ongoing PA for that few years? Has your W taken trips back to the state where you used to (and OM) live? Do you have access to your WW's email acct? Can you go back and investigate old emails?

Have you given any thought to the almost certainty that they have been having sex again?

You underestimate the creativity of a wayward, sir. And not once in your posts did you mention that you told her the M was over if you find anything. Did you actually tell her this?

No matter. Here's what she heard: "WS, I'm going to give you carte blanche to carry on this relationship with OM as long as I don't know about it. So I'm going to go outside, stick my fingers in my ears and sing la-la-la-la-la while you pretend to call him and cut it off.

Then I'm going to come back into the house and believe you when you say you did. But darnit, you'd better not let me catch you at it again, or...or...I'll do something! I don't know what, but I'll do something!"

I do have access to the phone bill, and I can see her call history, but as of right now, I have no access to her text messages. She has given me her phone a few times when we would have conversations about this and told me that there was nothing there for me to worry about. I know that there is the possibility (probability?) that she is deleting messages, but this is all that I have to go off of right now.
I have considered putting a keylogger on her computer, but so far I have been able to keep tabs on her fairly well without it by looking at IM logs and other binary info on her computer. She has a laptop and I have a desktop at home, and I have seen her log in on my desktop, so if something were to be going on, I would probably end up needing two keyloggers. I will definitely consider it.
I have thought about the possibility that this could have been a PA for the whole time, but I don't think that's the case in this situation. We live more than 10 hours drive away from my old hometown and I have had our one vehicle most of the time, as I drop her off at work before I go to school. Now, unless OM moved to where we live or has enough money that I don't know about that she is flying back to my hometown during the 8-10 hours per weekday that I'm in school, then I highly doubt that is the case.
I have access to both of her e-mail accounts that I am aware of, as well as Myspace and Facebook.


The truth is, no matter what I say to her, it comes down to her choice whether she decides to keep this A going. As I said before, I have two choices: stay or leave. Yes, I am probably underestimating the creativity of a wayward. I also believe that the wayward is underestimating me.

Why? You married her AFTER she cheated on you with your best friend.

Yes, I did, and my mistake there was not doing anything to A-proof the relationship before we got married 2 years later. I don't plan on making that mistake again.

What type of cell phone does she have? Not having keyloggers and flexispy at this point would be like putting blinders on. I am not sure why you wouldn't move forward with those safeguards at this point?????

OK, so has she taken any overnight trips in the last two years or not?

At this point, I am definitely considering it. The reason I haven't gotten flexispy is because I don't have the money right now. I am going to start looking at keyloggers today.


Not to my knowledge. If she did, it wasn't with any of her or my money...not to mention my schedule was constantly changing, so I don't think that she could without me knowing about it.

Creative waywards delete things. And give their 'cleaned-up' phones to their suspicious spouse to alleviate suspicion.
Have you asked to switch phones with you for periods of time when she least expects it?

She's probably logging on to yours for everyday, non-A things to lull you into thinking she's not up to anything. I doubt that you need more than one keylogger.

Airtime from him to her is a few short hours. They could be spending entire days in a hotel room, he flies out at 4 and she's home from 'work' shortly after.

She can have a silent friend on FB. She can have a number of email accounts. A keylogger will expose this.

You have a third choice: bust up the A. It sounds to me like you are in Plan Hope right now.

That's actually a really good idea. I'll keep that in mind in the future.


It's really hard to say right now, because I know that she uses both computers, and if she was really clever, she would talk to him on my desktop since she would think that I wouldn't spy on my own computer.


It's about a two hour flight one-way, so that would take up 4 hours just in travel time alone. More importantly, it's a good $200-$300 per trip, and her pay stubs do reflect how much time she has worked, so there's proof that she was working the entire time.


I know that, if she still wants to keep up the A, she will be going through some extra measures to keep me from finding out, so I am going to start using a keylogger on her computer, if not both the laptop and the desktop.



If this EA is as serious as it seems, then even if I were to "bust up the A", she would still continue to cover it up, and as I said before, take extra precautions to cover it up. At this point, I think it's best that I use the keylogger and continue to monitor her activity. If she slips up, then it's over.

AH, I would look for a secret email acct and also go through old credit card bills. I hope that I am wrong but I just have a bad feeling you don't know the whole story.

Did you have periods of time when you were away for work, overnight or longer? Anyway, OM could have been coming to visit her or they could have met halfway, etc.

Get the keylogger on both computers yesterday.

There are many things to do if you discover that they are still in contact besides saying it is over. That is what MB is all about. Have you exposed her adultery to her family? How bout his? Aren't you her to find out how to save your M? As long as you continue to keep her secrets she will suffer no consequences.
Put the keylogger on, put a VAR in her car. Find out all you can about the extent of the contact and then blow it out of the water.

God's Blessings,

Say

Who says she's the one flying or taking overnight trips? OM could easily be a frequent visitor and they could meet up for her lunch break.

Keep in mind that for a woman, the emotional aspects ARE the affair - and thsi goes for the betrayed as well as the waywards. BH's make the mistake that as long as it isn't physical, there's nothing to be worried about when it's really the emotional aspects of the affair that pull her away. By the time it goes physical, she's already checked out.

No marriage can recover as long as the affair is active. It's simply not possible - even if she doesn't "slip up" and you don't find out. The affair is still active even if it is "just" an EA. You cannot live your whole life waiting for her to slip up. Your choices are (1) break up the affair or (2) not. If not, you WILL divorce - no ifs ands or buts - it's just a matter of time. Only when you break up the affair can you even begin to consider steps toward marital recovery.

AH, I'm sensing a lot of reluctance on your part to do what you've been advised to do in order to end the A. We've explained how a long-distance A can be accomplished, how your WW can go underground, advised you to expose the A, implement spying tools, and you either ignore the comment or explain why it wouldn't work. Only when the posts are overwhelmingly in favor of a keylogger do you decide it's a good idea, and then you switch up and say you'll put it on your own computer.

Note: I get that you're trying to think outside of the box, but consider: Your WW isn't going to do anything incriminating on her computer-tech/h's computer. She's going to do it on her own.

I am seeing a lot of "if x happens, then it's over."

What do you really want to do?

I have looked at her internet history, and there are no indications that she had a secret e-mail address, and there were also no indications that she cleared her history (which is the only way she knows how to get rid of the history). The only times that we were away from each other overnight were when she would visit her family, and the only time that I wasn't there was when a member of her extended family passed away. If she had lied to me, then her family lied to me as well (mother, father, grandmother, and 4 siblings). The other time was when I went to a conference for a few days. The keyloggers are going on as soon as I find a good one.


I am here to save our marriage, and although the advice here has been very helpful, I strongly think that exposing this to her family will be more detrimental to the cause than helpful, and I'm fairly sure that it will result in D, regardless of whether she is still involved in the A or honestly trying to help save the marriage. It is the only thing that I'm against and would like to avoid at all costs. Besides, she has already gotten a taste of the consequences, as when it first happened, I told my family and WW had to deal with my mother. As far as OM's family is concerned, I've known them fairly well when he and I were friends, and I'm fairly sure that they wouldn't care, and even if they did, he wouldn't care what they think. I'm going to be going with the keylogger, and if there's really something going on, it won't take long for me to discover it, and then I am going to blow it all out of the water.


That could be true, but I doubt that. The one time that I know he came to visit was on a bus and I found out through an IM log. The IM log suggested that it wasn't a common occurence, and it's much less likely that he would be able to afford constant trips here than WW being able to afford constant trips there.


And that's what I'd like to do. As I said before, a lot of the advice here has been very helpful, and I am going to follow it as best as I can. I've already gotten her to remove him from phone, IM, e-mail, and social networking on her computer. The next step is the keylogger and working with her being in Withdrawal.


I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and as I said before, I am taking steps to break the A. I've gotten her to break off the contact via phone, e-mail, and social networking. The only suggestion that I am against is exposing the A to her family for the reasons I stated above. I just started giving this system a chance, so unless things don't change in the next couple weeks or so, I will expose it. That's what I want to do, and also continue to post updates and read more of your advice. Thanks!

MOST waywards slip up a time or two after NC is established. To stomp out and say "It's over" because of renewed contact is, IMO, premature. Now the 3rd and 4th time, sure. But once?

Nuclear exposure is your friend if you see any sign of ongoing contact.

I agree with you there. I'm not ready to expose this to her family, but if, through the keylogger, I find out that there is still contact, then I will be more open to exposing it to her family.

Bingo! We all know what he got when he arrived....right?

OK, this is what I was afraid of for you, that there was still an ongoing PA during the last two years. Why do you think he would come for a visit and it would be kept secret from you???

If you still have doubts they were phyiscal since you have moved, you could ask your W to take a polygraph.

AH:

I am a programmer too (30 years). If money is tight then you may want to create a Key-logging program yourself. I spent a few hours years ago and threw a quick on together. I created one that captures keystrokes into a text file.

Simple, effective and free. Let me know and I can send you the code. It is as simple as this.

1) Add Declare reference:
GetAsyncKeyState Lib "User32" (ByVal vKey As KeyCodeConstants) As Long

2) Add Form which will he hidden and contains a Timer control.

3) Add code to capture key strokes in Timer events:
result = GetAsyncKeyState(i)

4) Add code to write the above to Text file.

5) Run exe from Windows start. Rename exe to look like any old file running.

Of course you could add code to e-mail this file at predefined times in the background (STMP). You could also add code to capture Mouse-clicks but that seems like a waste of time!