Marriage Builders®
Posted By: BTinTrouble My thread - 05/01/10 04:36 AM
Hi everyone... I recently (less than a month ago) found this site.

Obviously something is going on, and obviously as most everyone here has probably experianced, its very painful and scary and I am going to spill it here in the hopes that it helps me come to grips with some of it and stay focused. Perhaps selfishly, I am also hoping for some encouragement or something to help me feel better about all of this. Reading others success stories has helped a lot already.

Just prior to finding this site, I also recently (less than a month ago, go figure) was told by my wife that she was going to leave me. She isnt ready to actually move out, but seems to have completely detached from me emotionally. We have a 15 month old son and just finished a huge transition period where we moved, I left the military, started a new job, and we spent about 4 months in there (Dec - Mar) living in a friends house with 5 adults and our child until we got our house. Very cramped and no privacy. I have known our relationship was under a lot of stress and crumbling for about 6 months (just before we moved) and back than she had said if things dont get better she would leave and agreed to go to counseling. However, she said 2 years for things to get better and since than has given other time tables (none less than 6 months, once she said 3 years) so this whole "I am done now, dont bother trying to win me back its over its too late" thing has been like a JDAM dropped on a bunker by a stealth bomber: I had no idea it was coming. The signs I did see I just thought were a result of the stress of our temporary living situation and that we could really get to fixing things once we got into our new house. Now I have the house she picked it out in the location she wanted and she says she plans to leave.

All this is very scary and frightening to me.

I hesitate to talk to my friends and family for advice or anything because I dont want us to make it through this and then they beome a part of it.

Issues we have.

Me: I havent been a very good husband in many ways. We have been married 5 years this month, and I have spent at least the last 6 years avoiding dealing with various emotional things relating to past deployments as well as our first sons death (premature baby, 3 years ago). I avoided it by engaging in activities like games and books that would occupy my mind. Shutting out these things also shut me off from my wife and our son. I, for all intents, pretty much ignored them.

I feel ashamed and disappointed in myself for this.

I also can go through the Love Busters and say I have done every single one, most of them habitually. Independant Behavior is a huge one. I know I have Annoying Habits, and Angry Outbursts maybe too, though I think her and I would probably have differing opinions on that one. Disrepectful Behavior in the ways I have ignored her opinions and thoughts on stuff and continued doing my thing and not being completely open. I havent lied, but I havent been the open book of complete honesty telling her everything she deserved to know.

About 6 months ago a few things started to click for me and I slowly began "putting myself" back together. I started trying to look at the things I was doing and stop just existing on autopilot. The transition made this harder but still, I started noticing the things I was doing or not doing. About a month and a half ago I completely quit playing games and reading recreational books, especially while my son was awake or my wife was doing something that I could with her. I started looking up and researching things about communicating and started trying to make a better effort to listen to her, and pay attention to and be involved with her and my son. It was hard living in that house with everyone because I never felt like we could talk.

Now we have our house. She generally has a look on her face of disgust as soon as our son is asleep. However, we have occasionally had some good conversations. They dont end well, but a lot of things have come out that neither of us had any idea were even issues, especially me. I found out a bunch of habits I have that annoy her that I have had since we met that I NEVER KNEW annoyed her. She had never mentioned it. Not really big things either, nothing I would have an issue with changing had I known.

During the day, she acts happy around our son, but we dont touch, and she mostly doesnt talk to me unless its a specific request of some sort like "get a bottle" or "will you change this diaper?"

As soon as our bed and couch got here, she said she didnt want to sleep near me and asked if she would have to go to the couch. I said I want her to be happy and comfortable and that I would go sleep on the couch.

One of my very annoying habits is the way I discuss and debate things. I am a very analytical person, with very terrible listening things. These are traits I have recently become aware of and am starting to work on them. Previously I would listen to someone with my brain thinking of ways they were wrong, or ways to question them to "prove" them wrong or show that they dont make sense. Obviously this is a very counterproductive way to discuss things like emotional needs and feelings. I have been making a special effort to STOP this line of thinking, and try to LISTEN to what people (not just her) are saying and trying to understand them. Also, not offering my thoughts without being asked.

I have told her all of these things and that I was working on things about myself, but one of the things she has said is that "I dont want you to change for me, you are who you are and you deserve to have that." I have explained to her that its not just for her, even if she was gone tomorrow, they are still things I need to fix and improve just to be a decent person and a better father.

I spent that first month after she said she planned to leave just wallowing in guilt and shame over my behavior the last 5 years, as well as frustration and fear because I didnt (and still dont) feel like I have any control over anything and I dont want to lose her.

Her: However, a new line has popped up as I think about this and review information on this site and as I read His Needs Her Needs.

My wife is a very giving person. She is generous and kind to people she cares about. However, she will give to the point of accepting unhappiness for herself. Things like she doesnt like the way I make her sandwiches, ever since we met, but I just found that out a week ago because she had never bothered to tell me because she "didnt want to hurt my feelings." This has been a common thing in the few discussions we have had. She has things she is hurt about or upset with, or just sick of, but many of them are things I had no idea were a problem.

So now I am feeling hurt and betrayed. She said she would give me a chance to fix the things in myself, but then up and just said she was leaving. She also said she would give it a chance, but has never told me the things she needed, or the things I did that she didnt like and would prefer to be different. Its like "sure if you get to the finish line we can stay together, but I'm not telling you where the finish line is." Now she has even removed the finish line. She told me to stop doing her laundry as it makes her feel uncomfortable. She mentioned that one of her major issues was that she didnt feel appreciated, and I sure did do a lousy job of showing my appreciation so I starting trying to do things to show it. I started leaving little notes under her door, or on her TV or in her Kitchen telling her specific things she did that day that I appreciated and how much they meant to me. She told me to stop leaving notes, said they make her feel uncomfortable and refused to explain why they made her feel that way. She has threatened to "leave faster" if I make her stay uncomfortable.

Now I sort of walk on egg shells because I dont want to piss her off and drive her away, but we need to talk.

Good news, she has said she wants to be friends and make this amicable. She says we have a child to raise and have to do it together even though we wont be married. To me this is at least something. I feel like to do this we will have to resolve many of our issues anyway. Get rid of the resentment and anger. She has agreed to go to counseling for this, though she adamantly states that its not going to change her mind about leaving.

All in all, I am at this moment, feeling very frustrated hurt and scared. I dont like at all that she has stated that she will never be able to be happy with me. I firmly believe this to be an "unwilling" statement and NOT an inability. I think she is CHOOSING to continue this. She has said that she thinks it would be better for our son to be raised by us seperately and happy, rather than together in a miserable house. She says this without even considering that we could be happy.

I am very unhappy with the way she is making a point to disengage from me. Like not letting me cook her a meal or do her laundry and so on. She says she didnt feel appreciated and that I didnt do things to show her how important she is to me, but now that I try to do them, she tells me to stop. I feel like she is struggling willingly to keep this rift, and I cant understand why she should fight so hard for it. She says she believes there is someone out there that could make her happy. I believe there are MANY people who could make her happy, but none of them is going to be the father of her 2 children or have been a part of the experiances we have survived already. No one has the potential to understand her and make her as happy as I COULD. And I hate to say "stay together for the kids" but really, at least give it a TRY for the kids. I cant believe she has said she has made up her mind and will not change it.

We were very happy once.

Both of our parents divorced when we were very young. Neither of us has seen an example of how a relationship should be. We went through the 5 years of our marriage stumbling blind. We never talked to anyone, never learned how to talk to eachother, never learned our own needs or what was making us unhappy, and never communicated these things to eachother. I feel like neither of us has really "tried" yet on this marriage. She can say she gave so much, but really, I think deep down, it was motivated by a fear. She didnt tell me the things that she didnt like or that upset her because she didnt want to rock the boat. Thats great and all, its something we can work on, but she says things like "I did try, and now I cant anymore."

I dont feel like we ever tried. I am glad we are going to counseling on May 10th, but I am very anxious we are going to get one of those "Yep you need a divorce" types. I have started gathering phone numbers and calling others in the area and asking them what they think about Doc Harley's approach (I found a post with that as a tip to finding a "good" counselor).

I still feel ashamed of myself for my previous behavior, and am still motivated to make changes in myself and my life. I am also hurt and frustrated with her for her apparent unwillingness to take any responsibility or to put forth any effort, even a try for the sake of our child.

I am hoping to get some encouragement and maybe information or tips from people with suggestions on how I can continue to stay positive and make positive and effective changes.

I have to go to bed now, we have a walk for March of Dimes tomorrow (well, today now) that we do every year in remembrance of our first son. I am hoping it can be a positive experiance for us together as a family.
Posted By: CWMI Re: My thread - 05/01/10 11:47 AM
Quote
She says she believes there is someone out there that could make her happy.

Have you done any snooping to determine if she believes this because he's already in the picture? It's much more likely that she is just now telling you all the things you've done to annoy her all these years because she is re-writing your marital history to justify her affair. Get to snooping. There are some great snooping pointers on the Surviving an Affair board.

I hope she is not having an affair, but this is something that you ought to rule out. Don't ask her if she is. Snoop.

You can do everything right and still fail if there is an OP (other person) in the picture.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: My thread - 05/01/10 01:50 PM
Hi BT: Sorry you have to be here. You are doing the right things, taking the right steps as far as realizing you have many weeds to pull on your side of the fence.

While it's possible your wife has met, or is thinking of meeting, or is inappropriately involved with, someone else, it's also very possible that she could have been unhappy for a long time, said nothing and reached the "I'm done" stage that many giving women reach before they announce anything. It's tougher to reconcile and rebuild the marriage, but it's still possible.

Definitely you should rule out an affair but I wouldn't wait to start other parts of this program in the meantime.

IMO, the best thing you could do is to call Steve Harley and talk to him. He's great at helping to encourage reluctant spouses into counseling with him and he's awesome at reaching them once they do. And the sticky stuff...her lovebusters, etc...Steve can play the middleman there and deliver the bad news while the two of you work on building ENs and making love bank deposits. It's well worth the money.

She hasn't left yet, and she seems hesitant, given the different time frames. I would take that as a good sign.

I also would advise though, that you not make it any easier for her to dissolve the marriage. You don't have to be an a$$ about it, but it's YOUR bed too, you should be sleeping in it. Your answer to her desire for a divorce should be "I don't do divorce, I do marriage and I want to do marriage with you." and then tell her how you want to counsel w/ the Harleys.

Good luck.
Posted By: Soolee Re: My thread - 05/01/10 03:40 PM
In your situation I would do my best to show her and to discuss the benefits of staying under the same roof while you get counseling.

Then I would get on the phone and make a phone appointment with Dr. Harley so that you two (in separate conversations) can discuss your marriage and what to do. Traditional marriage counseling does not have a high success rate. Your best avenue is to work through the Marriage Builders concepts.

Your wife doesn't like what you're doing because it puts her in conflict and makes her second guess what she's doing. Consistency and filling the emotional needs she will allow are important.

Being military put your marriage at a distinct disadvantage. Acknowledge that to her and tell her you want to focus on her and the marriage and get everything back on track, that you don't want to be the kind of husband (or person) you were and need her help and patience.

Weekends are slow here. Things should pick up come Monday.

Try to spend some undivided attention with her daily, making her smile or laugh without talking about the marriage. Remember what you did before you got married to make each other happy. Do those things if possible. Undivided attention is extremely important and will make it difficult for her to stay in withdrawal.
Posted By: Soolee Re: My thread - 05/01/10 03:43 PM
Editing to say that Dr. H will start you on a real, viable course of action to get things back on track or at least optimize your chances. I originally posted about questionnaires. You may want to wait to talk to Dr. H before doing those. If you can't afford counseling with Dr. H., then come back and someone here will try to help you.

It's important to note that we are your peers here, not professionals.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/01/10 05:19 PM
Thank you guys. We just finished our annual family March of Dimes walk we do in honor of our first son who died.

As for the affair, it almost cannot be a physical affair since we just moved and she knows NO ONE down here. I also dont think it is and have kinda done a little bit of snooping, though not on purpose and havent seen any signs.

She has agreed still to go to counseling, and we have an appointment with one on 10 May, but I am looking for one in our area that follows MB type Marriage Coaching. I am considering just doing the phone one with Doc Harley's.

She says she wants to be friends and do this amicably, but she is done. I have tried to discuss why we should really give it a try, but she says she did and is done. Me telling her what she should do is the last thing she wants to hear, except maybe me telling her she is wrong.

The walk went ok, we met a lady and we all shared some life experiances and the lady made some comments about how we have gone through so much together and was amazed that we lasted through it despite being in the military and deployments and such.

Quote
"Your wife doesn't like what you're doing because it puts her in conflict and makes her second guess what she's doing. Consistency and filling the emotional needs she will allow are important."

I have considered this, and it kinda inspires me to keep going with my personal things.

Quote
"Try to spend some undivided attention with her daily, making her smile or laugh without talking about the marriage. Remember what you did before you got married to make each other happy. Do those things if possible. Undivided attention is extremely important and will make it difficult for her to stay in withdrawal."

A couple suggestions like this. Ok, I will try to think about how to do this. It is SO HARD to not talk about the "us." Through all this I have discovered that one of my ENs is Communication, which was weird since its a woman one supposedly, but I used to tell her EVERYTHING, and now I feel like she doesnt want to hear it anymore and I would only push her away.

Thats the same thing with the "its my bed too" thing. I am having trouble determining the line where I dont want to piss her off and make her leave right now, but I dont want to be the rug either. She was being very rude the other day and I stopped and calmly said, "I do not appreciate the way you are talking to me. You wouldnt act like this to a stranger, please at least be considerate." She had a mini 25 second blow up, but I remained calm, walked away after closing the conversation, and about 10 minutes later she began to at least maintain a base level of civility and politeness.

I dont know. I am very frustrated and almost desperate. She is looking for jobs and apartments online and making plans for leaving and asking if she can have the bed or this or that. I have so far refrained from talking about those things, saying that I am not comfortable having those discussions until we resolve some of the resentment and trust issues between us and have a method of communicating without either of us blowing up.

I need to find us help fast.

I read the "Marraige Coach" thing and feel thats what we really need.

The only people she really talks to now are 3-5 friends she has, her own age, who all have children out of wedlock and detest the fathers, and live accross the country from us so dont really see anything about what is really happening besides talking to her. I dont think she shares all the details with them, but she talks about stuff and gets their veiwpoints on things.

Not exactly an inspirational group.

Right now, she is the veritable definition of withdrawal. It makes me sick that I didnt see this much earlier and let it get to this point, even though I have realized she shares some blame for not saying anything. I still feel like I should have noticed or something.
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: My thread - 05/01/10 05:26 PM
If I were in your situation, I'd get on the phone with Dr. H ASAP. With your W if at all possible, without her if that's the only way you can do it. It's very difficult to find MB MC's IRL. She's going to need to hear a lot of really hard evidence that you are really changing and "proof" from professionals that it's going to stick to make her want to consider staying if she's already out the door in her head.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/01/10 05:33 PM
I am planning to do the questionnaires best I can by myself, in the hopes that I learn about myself, and maybe we can use them in the future.

Is there a list or something of Marriage Coaches who use MB methods and where to find them so I could find one in our area?
Posted By: Retread Re: My thread - 05/01/10 05:46 PM
This is a common delusion:
Quote
She says she believes there is someone out there that could make her happy.

No one can be happy in the long term without taking responsibility for what they need to do do make themselves happy.

2. Your wife's "friends" are straight out of what Dr. Harley writes about, those who "support" her by encouraging her to behave independently, so she can "be happy".

3. Military problems are unique. Have you posted over in the new Military forum as well as here?

4. Maybe your wife would fill out the questionnaires if she thought it was something that might be useful to her future happiness. Although right now she might think that means divorced, filling out the ENQ and LBQ might get her to read HNHN and then get her to a phone counseling session.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/02/10 01:14 AM
She initially said she would read HNHN when I was done, but when I finished it said "I have too little free time to waste on that."

I have also tried suggesting we work things out at least to the point so that we can learn what went wrong and help us in the future regardless of where we are as "us" at that time.

I have also tried to tell her ever since we got married that no one can MAKE her happy. She chooses to be happy. If something is preventing her from being happy, than she has to say something to let that person know, or she cannot expect anything to change. Once she tells them, then and ONLY then does the onus fall on them to decide whether her happiness is important enough for them to make the change. I approached her with the ENQ and LBQ's with the reasoning that we would learn alot about ourselves and eachother, but she said no. She says she doesnt feel she has to tell me what her needs are anymore, since she is done.

I have been on the military forum, but I am no longer in the military, so I believe whatever additional damage resulted from that seperation, it is past now and I dont think we really have the excuse of being "prior" military spouses to explain our hardships. At this point, the past is past and we must decide how we will respond to it, put it to rest, and move forward. In this respect we are like any couple on the rocks. How we got there might be different but how and if we get back on track wont be much different. The personal issues I had leftover from the military are pretty much resolved at this point, I think, though they certainly wreaked havoc during the long period that I tried to ignore them and act like everything was fine.

I havent read what you referred to about her "friends." Would be neat to find that. In addition, her father, a rather sensible fellow who I dont KNOW would tell her to stay with me, but who I do believe would tell her what he thought was best is also currently out a phone and internet for the last 3 months, so one of her only voices of reason she has ever turned to to talk things over with is gone too... hooray.

I dont want this to seem like I didnt hurt her. Neither of us cheated on the other or anything, but I certainly neglected my wife. I copy pasted Doc Harley's article "why women leave men" and emailed to her and a bunch of people and she read the first part explaining the womans reaction and today told me that it perfectly summed her feeling up. Ironically, she said she stopped reading after that because what it was saying about the guy's attitude pissed her off and she thought it was nonsense, so not only did she not read that, but she missed the conclusion of the article which was the biggest point made to me, that anything can be fixed and divorce is not the answer for anyone, including the children. I dont understand how she can recognize that Doc is so perfectly correct about the woman's feelings, but then can so quickly decide he doesnt know what he's talking about as far as the man is concerned. To me, the fact that he got the woman spot on would make me question MY viewpoints if I disagreed on the other parts. I just dont get it.

After our walk for March of Dimes today, we went to one of her friends house for a gathering of some sort. It went fine, I took care of our son and the husband and I entertained eachother and the kids while about 8 women had a merry old time discussing and buying candles from our hostess.

On the way home she brought up counseling, asking what the point was. I told her (H is husband, me, W is wife, her):

H: Worst case scenario for me, counseling helps us resolve enough of our resentment and trust issues so that we can have a functional relationship to allow communication and raising our son together, even if we are apart.

W: We dont need that, I dont want a relationship with you. I will do what I think is best for my son, and you can always be his father but I dont want him to be like you.

H: Well then dont you think it would be good if we are able to talk about those things and come to an agreement that we both enthusiastically support?

W: Well, I am not going to change my mind, I guess all I want is a happy ending and to out of my relationship with you. I dont love you at all anymore. I have a tiny bit just because you gave me my son, but you hurt me over and over and I am sick of, and am done. I dont mean to be mean or to hurt you, I am just being honest.

H: I am not hurt nor do I think you are mean when you are honest. I respect that you have your own thoughts and feelings. I appreciate that you share them with me. Dont you think that if we had always done a better job sharing our thoughts and feelings that we wouldnt be in this position.

W: I only am honest with you because I dont care about your feelings. I dont care about you anymore, I am not like this with people I like.

H: (short silence)

W: Sometimes I think it would have been better if you had just cheated on me because then it would be just one incident instead of all those times you hurt me and made me feel alone.

H: Well, I dont think thats a fair statement, because affairs dont just happen on their own. An affair would just be a cherry on top of the sundae we already have.

W: You dont know that, you havent had an affair.

H: I have read a lot of stories of people who have though, and they all agree on that, affairs dont just happen.

W: Well its not the same, it wasnt our same situation. So you dont know.

H: Ok, you are right, its not our same situation, so I dont KNOW, but you dont know either so I dont think its fair to me or you to wish that one of us had had an affair.

W: Whatever. I dont care what you read or what changes you are making, I am done. I have made up my mind. I deserve better than you.

H: You deserve better than what I have been.

W: I deserve someone who I dont have to work to be happy with. I deserve someone I can just be happy with and not have to be miserable for 5 years.

H: I truly want you to be happy, but I hope that you dont really believe that it just happens, it takes work to have a successful relationship. I know there are other people out there you could be happy with, but I have been thinking a lot. Everytime you tell me about something I think about it for days. I compare it to what I remember, and what I am learning and try to understand what went wrong. I have noticed that most of things you have mentioned that you dont like about me or the way I did things are what are called Traits. Traits are like "you are annoying" or "you are a bad father." You cant really change traits, but you can identify the Habits, the what do I do that makes me annoying or a bad father.

W: (interupt) I dont want to have to sit here and waste my time telling you all those things.

H: I know, you have said you dont want to talk to me about those so I respect your thoughts and opinions and wishes and I dont ask you. It would help a lot if you could tell me what habits they are but I wont ask. Instead, I think and try to identify them to myself by asking "what was I doing when she said I was being annoying." The point of this is that Traits you cant really change but the habits you can. So I believe that eventually, with a little time, I could be all these things you want me to be, because ultimately, they are all just various habits, some to break, some to make. So earlier when you would say "I COULD never be happy with you," I could not agree with you or accept it as an absolute truth, since the things that would make you happy are habits I could change. Now you have said that you dont want to wait and you dont want to have someone that has ever made you unhappy. That is your choice, a decision you make that I have to accept.

W: I dont get your point. I know I am not going to wait for you fix all these things, even if you succeed. I dont want to be hurt by you anymore, and I deserve to be happy.

At this point, our son woke up in the back seat, but what I would have said was that many other people could make her happy, but none of them have 2 children with her, and went through the things that we went through together. I could, over time developing habits, make her just as happy as anyone else out there could, but no one else has those previous bonds with her that we have together. I am hoping this can come out in counseling.

She has always said that she is very much about "Marraige is forever" and things along this line. She has scoffed at others getting divorces saying they are taking the easy way out. Now she laughs when someone says "I want to spend forever with him" and she responds, "no one lasts forever honey," as if each of us doesnt have a set of Grandparents who remained married until one of them died.

I understand that her love bank account of me is in the red. I understand many of the things I did to put it there. However, I dont understand her unwillingness to try to make it better. I dont accept it when she says "I cant try." I dont accept it when she tries to tell me that its MOSTLY my fault if she leaves. Honestly, I cant yet bring myself to accept ANY of the blame if she does in fact leave. I am trying. I have not given up. Her being done is not a state of being that she cant control, its a personal choice. To me its a selfish choice, since it hurts our son.

I really hope we can work this out. She sounds like she will still go to counseling. I think I will call Doc Harley's counseling and see if I can arrange something before the 10th. I know I need a LOT of help to be able to learn to be more empathic and learn her needs and learn to break LB habits, but I think first we (her and I) need her to give a crap and be engaged. It is especially frustrating, since she previously told me, about 5 months ago, that she would be committed to going to counseling and trying to work things out once we "got settled in" down here. We just got settled in and she out of nowhere decided "Nope, I'm done."

Reading Doc Harley's article about Marriage COACHING, getting the person in withdrawel to do what they dont want to do, seems just what we need.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/02/10 02:47 AM
Ok, I feel like I am doing something wrong here...

I am becoming frustrated with her for what seems to me to be her UNWILLINGNESS to try to make this work, which I attribute to selfishness since it is for her only, and hurts our son. I dont count my pain since that is not part of her concern right now, but the rest stands.

However, if I really thought she was that kind of person I wouldnt even want to stay. Also, I dont believe she is that kind of person.

I suppose she could be confused and just doesnt get that she is being selfish, but then I would be assuming that I am right and I need to fix her.

So I need to figure out where she is coming from so that the things she says make sense to her. So far I cant create a reality where they might make sense to me, but maybe I am missing something.

Any thoughts or ideas?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: My thread - 05/02/10 02:57 AM
I am sorry your in this situation. I was in similar shoes for a long time. It wasnt until i descided to go to MC on my own that really got my wife seeing how serious i was to making our marraige work.

I would not worry too much at this point .. she is going to be resentful and try to dismiss your efforts becasue she is confused. Just give her space to watch you make your changes and focus on you and your son. She will see the changes eventually. ITs only been a few days ... dont let her withdrawn attitude drag you down. Realy keep pouring on the effort. Meet all her emotional needs .. if you know what they are, fill out the questionairs. If she is willing to work on the marriage. Tell her that taking on teh basics here and sticking to them is far cheaper than an MC. But do the MC because maybe she needs to see your serious about what it is you say your going to do.

I dont have much advice at this time other than what i said above. Give her space to recoup ... tell her how she means the world to you and your son, and then show it by following the basics here.

YOu can do it ... just stay focused ... and come back here for support.

Edit : just to add that UA time is very important ... but try to keep it light and relaxing and not bring up the marriage difficulties too much. That will help bring her out of withdrawl.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/02/10 04:01 AM
MNG, thanks for the words.

It hasnt really been a few days. Its been a few months. I completely quit playing video games and recreational reading about 1.5 months ago. I have been using the time to try to fufill needs and create / break habits.

I think you are definately right about the time part. Its going to take time to earn the trust. Also, the UA is a huge problem right now. She actively avoids being around me. I get home, eat what she has made if she makes something, and then as soon as I "have" the kid for bedtime routine, she takes off till about 9pm to go be alone. This kinda irritates me because I know being a mom is hard work, but I also work, and I dont get to run off for a few hours for "me time." I am trying not to "rock the boat" at this time, so I just vent it here. However, even when we do get to a conversation, I have a lot of things to unlearn and fix and I have occasionally regressed and made the conversations a negative experiance. I am getting better at this. We had about 1.5 hours of positive interaction time today, and about 1 hour of talking about marriage stuff that stayed at least neutral where neither of us appeared upset.

The hard part is maintaining this positive outlook.

I know all these changes are good for me to make even if she does leave, but she has been my reason for everything for over half of my adult life...

This song really said it and has really touched a nerve for me...

Breakeven by The Script, you can hear it on Youtube

I'm still alive but I'm barely breathing,
Just prayed to a god that I don't believe in, (my comment: Amen...)
'Coz I got time while she got freedom,
'Coz when a heart breaks
no it don't break even.

Her best days will be some of my worst,
She finally met a man that's gonna put her first,
While I'm wide awake, she's no trouble sleeping,
'Coz when a heart breaks
no it don't break even, even no.

What am I supposed to do when the best part of me was always you
What am I supposed to say when I'm all choked up and you're ok
I'm falling to pieces
I'm falling to pieces

They say bad things happen for a reason
But no wise words gonna stop the bleeding
'Coz she's moved on while I'm still grieving
And when a heart breaks
no it don't break even, even no.

What am I gonna do when the best part of me was always you
What am I supposed to say when I'm all choked up and you're ok
I'm falling to pieces, yeah
I'm falling to pieces, yeah
I'm falling to pieces
(One still in love
while the other one's leaving)
I'm falling to pieces,
(Cuz when a heart breaks
no it don't break even)

You got his heart and my heart and none of the pain,
You took your suitcase, I took the blame.
Now I'm tryna make sense of what little remains, oh.
'Coz you left me with no love, with no love to my name.

I'm still alive but I'm barely breathing,
Just prayed to a god that I don't believe in,
'Coz I got time while she got freedom,
'Coz when a heart breaks
no it don't break, no it don't
break, no it don't break even no.

What am I gonna do when the best part of me was always you
What am I supposed to say when I'm all choked up and you're ok
I'm falling to pieces, yeah
I'm falling to pieces, yeah
I'm falling to pieces,
(One still in love
while the other one's leaving)
I'm falling to pieces,
(Cuz when a heart breaks
no it don't break even)

Oh, it don't break even, no
Oh, it don't break even, no
Oh, It don't break even, no
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/02/10 04:09 AM
Looking for any advice on things I might be missing or things I could be doing better.

Here is what I am working on right now:

EMOTIONAL NEEDS (*** - things I am specifically working on or am able to work on)

Affection - I cannot really work on this in many ways since she has told me specifically to not touch her or show affection. I have tried a few things, like made her a list of formatted songs she liked so she could listen to them on her phone. She has also allowed me to give her a massage a few times. I only recently watched a couple instructional videos and started reading the massage book she bought me a while ago, but a few simple techniques have at least enabled me to be able to give a 45-60 minute massage whereas before poor body mechanics was leaving me with cramped fingers and sore wrists in about 15 mins.

Sexual Fufillment - Completely not allowed to even attempt to fulfill this one. Says she is disgusted by me, even though she still thinks physically I am very attractive.

***Conversation - I realize now that the reason we stopped doing this was due to 1) My poor listening skills and 2) Tendancy to "debate" things and basically go till I am right and "win" or am proven wrong. Since she doesnt really like this sort of communication and also doesnt like to tell me something makes her unhappy, she just began to avoid communication. Since she didnt really engage when I would try talk at her some more, we werent really conversing. Now I am actively practicing my listening skills, paraphrasing, being quiet and asking open ended questions to ensure I understand, and asking her what she thinks. Also working harder to avoid DJ's and just let her say what she thinks and simply accept it as the truth for her and work with it.

***Recreational Companionship - We sort of get this because we take our son out for things. I try to talk to her while we are out and try to stay pleasant as well as try to make the activities fun. She does not want to excercise with me or generally acompany me on anything at this point.

***Honesty and Openness - I am not having a problem with honesty part, but the openness part I am not sure about. I feel like if I told her some things I think and feel (like that I think she is being incredibly selfish by choosing to end our marraige rather than give it a serious try) then she would leave. I guess this shows a lack of faith in her and a lack of respect for her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner, but I guess I DONT respect her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner. I dont know how to fix this, I will need to work on this one somehow. Looking for ideas.

Physical Attractiveness - She has said that she still thinks I am very attractive, just that she isnt attracted to me because of her "hate and resentment." Still, I have restarted my workout regimen, going at it for almost 3 weeks now and it is showing results already.

Financial Support - I think this one is fine in that I make enough for us at this time. She has a nicer house than she expected to have (even though she wants to leave it).

***Domestic Support - Historically I have been really bad about this. Since then I have made it a point to do every dish I see laying around, check the dishwasher for clean dishes to put away, wipe things down, clean our sons things, pick up toys and things, sweep, help out whenever she is doing something, I make sure I am helping or doing something else productive. She has told me specifically NOT to do her laundry and passively avoids allowing me to make her a meal as much as possible.

***Family Commitment - I quit playing video games and reading recreational books, as well as quit most activities other than dealing with my son during the time I am home and he is awake. I am doing a lot of personal "self help" stuff to improve myself as a person (and therefore a father) as well as reading the "Parenting" magazines we get. I have asked her opinion on things to do with our son for development, asked her without prompting how doctors visits etc go, and taken a lot more effort to properly exercise and work on training our dog (Siberian Husky)

***Admiration - She has stated that she hasnt ever felt appreciated for what she does. I have been making a point to say "Thank you" for everything. I also have been making a point of identifying when I feel proud of something she does, and being sure to tell her. "I am so proud of the work you did and all effort you made to raise that money for the March of Dimes."


LOVE BUSTERS

Selfish Demands - I dont think I have had a problem with this. I cannot recall a time that I have told her "do this because I want it, I dont care if you dont want it." This perception may be due to a misunderstanding on what Selfish Demands are. I believe I am much more guilty of Independant Behavior, rather than selfish demands. I dont demand that she do something, I just do what I want...

Disrespectful Judgements - I am sure I am guilty of this one, in fact, I am confused about a specific thing a couple posts up, in regards to me thinking she is being selfish and unreasonable. I really need help with this one. I just know there are probably DJ's clouding my judgement and filtering my perceptions that I am not even aware of. To all of you that are bothering to read my walls of text I thank you so much and PLEASE let me know if you spot anything.

Angry Outbursts - I am guilty of this at times. I would say the vast majority of the time she "starts it" but I know that that doesnt make it ok for me to do it, and that she probably has the opposite perception, and we are probably both wrong. Regardless, I have been making an even more supreme effort to remain calm and rational at all times. I have a tendancy to be calm and rational anyway, to the point that it can annoy people that tend to get emotional, but once I start to feel frustrated or a lack of control I sometimes get angry. I have recently noticed this and begun to watch for early signs of frustration and stop there and breathe before it gets worse.

Annoying Habits - WOW!! I have a TON of these. Big and small things that she finds annoying. Unfortunately, most of what she gives me has been in the form of Traits so I have been spending a lot of time thinking these over and trying to identify specific habits associated with the perception, and working on them.
You are inconsiderate and rude - I have begun being more concious of my manners and the way I act towards people
You are annoying - I know a couple things that annoy her, as far as like, picking up after myself, making noises while eating, putting certain things in a certain place, folding her tacos a certain way, etc, that I am working on and trying to remember.
You dont listen - I have been doing a lot of work, hard work, on proper listening skills. This one has been a real battle, but progress is being made.

Independant Behavior - I have been guilty of this. I used to go to work and then come home and that woudl be it, no calls, didnt even know when I would be home. I have begun calling after my workout (8am), lunch time, and right before I leave, to keep her updated. We arent allowed to bring our phones into work for security reasons, but I have made sure she has the work number. At this point, I feel like i have to do many things independantly since she seems to refuse to engage in them with me.

Dishonesty - This one is a real pain since I definately agree that it includes openness and transparency. I am doing these changes for me, but I also want her to see the changes and choose to stay. However, I dont feel I can tell her this. This is one example of many things I dont feel like I can really share with her right now. I am not sure where to draw the line. It used to be that I would tell her basically everything I could think of.


I am trying to figure out a way for us to sit down and set up some ground rules for Negotiations. She has previously said that its something we should do.

I am also trying to figure out a way to get her to do a Telephone MC with Doc Harley. I dont want to trick her into it, but I also dont want this to end and feel like I didnt do EVERYTHING I POSSIBLY COULD to try to save it.

I am also trying to continue gathering information on AH's, IB's and other LBs that I might not be aware of yet.

I am also working on trying to really identify her top emotional needs.

I think so far it is:

Family Commitment
Affection
Conversation (she talks to friends a LOT now, and we USED to talk CONSTANTLY!)
Domestic Support

I am not sure if these are really the most important ones for her, or if they are the ones she has said because they are not being met. Need to keep investigating and seeking hints.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: My thread - 05/02/10 02:58 PM
BT, my kids love that Breakeven song, play it over and over. I like it, too, a sad, beautiful song. The line that really resonates with my is "What am I supposed to do when the best part of me was always you." I always had a dream of the family we were creating, and I'm not sure why it's not a one-time thing, coming to accept reality.

Where is your wife going every night for a few hours at 9pm every night? Am I reading this correctly?

Can you two work out together instead of you going alone? It's give her the opportunity to have some of her best times of the day with you, if you two enjoy exercise, quiet time where she's not having to take care of the kids and stuff. From your post it sounds like "kid-free" time is very important to her. I have friends like this. My guess is that this type of person is like other wives, top two ENs are Conversation and Affection. What does she talk with her family about? I'm guessing some things that would make deposits would be to talk to her about kid-free time for the two of you that you're planning, like date nights, weekends away. You mentioned FC, that makes too. You can add conversation about stuff that shows her she's not on her own with the kids anymore. Fun FC time stuff. Family trips.

I don't know how old your kids are, but some FC things my H does that lets me know we are in a new phase, not the same-old same-old, is signing their backpacks, helping with homework, putting their activities on the calendar. Seeing his handwriting on the family calendar, not just mine, reminds me we are a team every day when I look at it. Your wife is likely of two minds on her decision, whether she tells you or not, and IMO you need to give her pro-marriage side as much ammunition as possible.

Do you two still sleep in the same room? Do you make the bed, and let her know you're doing this as affection? Does she still hug you goodbye? Can you take the opportunity and do something like telling her her hair smells good today, how soft her skin is, how beautiful she is? Again, giving her pro-M side ammunition, reminding and reconnecting her with her how much she likes your hugs, how you smell, how you feel in her arms, how handsome you are.

Does she work outside the home? If she is, would you be able to come home earlier for a time, pick up the kids, fix supper, put the dishes up after? Can you afford a housekeeper to come in? How can you make your home and life together attractive and inviting?

Quote
I have also tried to tell her ever since we got married that no one can MAKE her happy. She chooses to be happy. If something is preventing her from being happy, than she has to say something to let that person know, or she cannot expect anything to change. Once she tells them, then and ONLY then does the onus fall on them to decide whether her happiness is important enough for them to make the change.

No, BT, MBing isn't about finding the onus and fault. It's about sharing your best time together, creating a life that is special and meaningful for both of you, together. It really isn't work. I know I'm doing a great Plan A when it doesn't feel like work, feels like playing together, when I feel most like myself, enjoying my H getting a respite, getting to be himself, too.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/02/10 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
BT, my kids love that Breakeven song, play it over and over. I like it, too, a sad, beautiful song. The line that really resonates with my is "What am I supposed to do when the best part of me was always you." I always had a dream of the family we were creating, and I'm not sure why it's not a one-time thing, coming to accept reality.

Where is your wife going every night for a few hours at 9pm every night? Am I reading this correctly?

She mostly goes to the beach or to a meadow or a drive or errands or something. She specifically says she doesnt want me to come wiht. We used to walk on the beach together all the time, especially when we still lived in CA. Now I am not wanted during this time.
Quote
Can you two work out together instead of you going alone? It's give her the opportunity to have some of her best times of the day with you, if you two enjoy exercise, quiet time where she's not having to take care of the kids and stuff. From your post it sounds like "kid-free" time is very important to her.

I have asked to work out with her, and even as recent as 3-4 months ago, I was kinda working her out as a sort of coach and we would do it together. There were a couple incidents where I would forget to ask her to work out, or would be in the middle of something and callously chose to not do it when she asked, and added with everything else, at some point she stopped asking. It wasnt until later when she said she was going for a run one day and I asked if I could come and she said "No, I dont want to work out with you anymore."

Quote
I have friends like this. My guess is that this type of person is like other wives, top two ENs are Conversation and Affection. What does she talk with her family about? I'm guessing some things that would make deposits would be to talk to her about kid-free time for the two of you that you're planning, like date nights, weekends away. You mentioned FC, that makes too. You can add conversation about stuff that shows her she's not on her own with the kids anymore. Fun FC time stuff. Family trips.

I really like this. I have no idea what she talks to her friends about. Her family is basically her mom and dad. Her dad is out of contact because he has no phone or internet. Her mom is a "recovering" addict who she still loves and cares for despite everything. But I do think that is a great idea about setting "dates" for us as a family. We went to the circus, though she planned most of that and it was fun. Perhaps I can do more on this. It is very hard with moving, new job, and learning stuff like this to find time, but I love my wife so I will do it somehow.


Quote
I don't know how old your kids are,
15months, son, our first son would be 3 but he was born premature and passed away

Quote
but some FC things my H does that lets me know we are in a new phase, not the same-old same-old, is signing their backpacks, helping with homework, putting their activities on the calendar. Seeing his handwriting on the family calendar, not just mine, reminds me we are a team every day when I look at it. Your wife is likely of two minds on her decision, whether she tells you or not, and IMO you need to give her pro-marriage side as much ammunition as possible.

Thank you so much for these ideas, will add them. We have a calender up now and I want to add a "bulletin board" for my reminders since I so often forget things like honey-do requests and stuff.


Quote
Do you two still sleep in the same room? Do you make the bed, and let her know you're doing this as affection? Does she still hug you goodbye? Can you take the opportunity and do something like telling her her hair smells good today, how soft her skin is, how beautiful she is? Again, giving her pro-M side ammunition, reminding and reconnecting her with her how much she likes your hugs, how you smell, how you feel in her arms, how handsome you are.

No we dont sleep in the same room as of a week ago. It was the day before our stuff got delivered to our new house, when she mentioned she didnt want to sleep with me once we had more than the air mattress. I agreed to go elsewhere. I am not sure what kind of stuff to stand up for and when to respect her wishes and let it be. I have been specifically asked not to give certain types of comments, and at other times, she has gotten a P.O.'d expression when I have given a compliment or made a remark, like it makes her mad or uncomfortable. But then, other times, when it seems like she isnt focusing on being mad at me, she will just smile and say thanks. I am trying to learn better how to "read" her and pick these more open times out and offer her what I can. I will keep working on it. She also avoids all physical contact with me, even accidental she will jump away like I am burning her or something. Oh gosh does that hurt when I see that. Tears my heart out. Yesterday during our March of Dimes walk, thinking about our first son, I think I would have given both my eyes for just one hug and moment of comfort to share between us.

Quote
Does she work outside the home? If she is, would you be able to come home earlier for a time, pick up the kids, fix supper, put the dishes up after? Can you afford a housekeeper to come in? How can you make your home and life together attractive and inviting?

She doesnt work out of the house yet. She has begun looking for work in the city 40 mins away that she says she wants to move in. I WANT her to be happy and do well, so I feel guilty when I am sometimes thankful the economy is so terrible and she is having trouble finding work. Man this is crazy. She tries to avoid me cooking her things, though I get to sneak them by occasionally. I DO pick up dishes and "housekeep" as soon as I see things. I know she notices the increased effort, but she still slams me when I forget something. I left the refried beans out last night from our sons supper and about 5 oz were left and they spoiled. That turned into, "omg, how stupid can you be, just throwing money away." and so on. I calmly said I am not stupid, I made a mistake, and she said "well you sure do stupid things," but seemed a little calmer since I didnt rise to the bait. I am not sure if there is a better way to have handled. I am so not in the habit of being a father. She is so far ahead of me as far as knowing his schedule and what he likes and stuff. I leave for work before his breakfast, so I have to ask her what hes having for supper since I dont know what Bfast or lunch was. I dont like it because I feel like she takes that to mean I am unfit to be a father. Maybe I can start asking what his bfast / lunch was when I call from work, then when I get home I can do supper and show how interested and competant I am.

Quote
Quote
I have also tried to tell her ever since we got married that no one can MAKE her happy. She chooses to be happy. If something is preventing her from being happy, than she has to say something to let that person know, or she cannot expect anything to change. Once she tells them, then and ONLY then does the onus fall on them to decide whether her happiness is important enough for them to make the change.

No, BT, MBing isn't about finding the onus and fault. It's about sharing your best time together, creating a life that is special and meaningful for both of you, together. It really isn't work. I know I'm doing a great Plan A when it doesn't feel like work, feels like playing together, when I feel most like myself, enjoying my H getting a respite, getting to be himself, too.

I think I understand that, but waht I was trying to say was that I cant do those things that make her happy if she doesnt tell me something is making her unhappy. As such, no one can just magic pill make her happy, she has to communicate what she needs and offer the other person the chance to fulfill those. I cant read her mind and just KNOW what to do. I can slowly figure things out and I am learning to do it to an extent, but something like not liking the way I make her sandwiches, I cant guess that unless she says something. I didnt mean to sound like I was trying to assign blame. I think we are both to blame, and for the sake of eachother, our child, and my own selfish needs (which I am not ashamed of having) we both deserve to really give this a chance. I know I am willing to work very hard on this.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/02/10 06:58 PM
A new problem / issue.

I am rereading Q/A's and part of the book etc.

First: on the article about how to pull your partner out of a state of withdrawal, he says "stop making her unhappy. She wont let you meet her needs until she can put defenses down and that wont happen till she feels safe."

So... what am I doing tht makes her not feel safe? I honestly dont know and will have to think a lot about it. I have some ideas to start with I think. But this all makes that line of talking with her where I have to choose whether to confront something or not that much harder to me to figure out.

Second: Emotional Infidelity. One of the first responses was "is she having an affair?" I said no, no physical affairs, but while I still believe that, rereading the part about emotional affairs I think is possible. During the 4 months we stayed in a place till we got our house, another of the "roommates" was a ~60yr old guy that I also work with. He is a nice guy and enjoys watching TV. Since I was playing games, and my wife watches TV, they would hang out. In addition, for a while my work schedule was weird, so he would have a day off while I was working, and they would hang out all day. Now she considers the guy a friend, even I consider him a friend and a decent guy. However, they talk frequently, he has stayed over, and she has mentioned since he is unhappy staying in the place we had just left, she wanted to ask him to be her roommate to save costs. They both asked me if I would throw a fit about it, and I said no it seemed fine to me.

Now it doesnt. Now that I think about it, she wasnt really "adamant" about her leaving until the last couple months, and I wonder if it was due to having some of her Emotional Needs being met by this guy. I would bet my life there is no physical intimacy going on, but I know they share a lot of thier feelings and stuff. I already am pretty sure the need for Conversation is one of my wifes major needs, and she seems to turn to him now for that need.

Does this sound like an affair? Am I wrong to now not be comfortable with them living together? Do I have a right to tell her that she shouldnt be such good friends with him since it was emotional infidelity? I would love to hear any other viewpoints so maybe I can get a new angle to work on this helps me make sense of it.

Thanks to any and all of you that are bothering to work through my walls of text and leave thoughts. I really appreciate it a lot!
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/03/10 04:11 AM
Couple things tonight:

We were making dinner and have a guest over.

She asked how long the pork would take, and I said 15 mins in the oven. (W-wife, M-me)
W: (very demanding) WHAT?!? YOU ARE GOING TO COOK IT ON THE GRILL!!
(silence)
M: (sarcastic tone) fine, YES MA'AM!!
W: (flippant) fine, do whatever you want, I dont even care.
M: (slightly more calm) No, you obviously do care or you wouldnt have said anything. Thank you for letting me know what you want, I will go start the grill I guess
W: No, make it in the oven, I dont even care.
(this went back and forth, till our friend said something about "good lord you 2!" and laughed. I left the room to start the grill, came inside and the friend was in the bathroom)
M: I am sorry, I dont want to fight. I shouldnt have answered you sarcastically like that, I am sorry.
W: Its ok, just dont teach our son that.
M: Ok. I also dont appreciate it when you order me around, I wish you wouldnt do that.
(short silence)
W: (calmly) Would you mind cooking it on the grill?
M: No, I dont mind the grill, I just havent done it in a while and dont want to burn it or anything, and the grill's been acting up since the move so I am not sure if I will be able to get it to work. I will try.
W: Oh, well ok then, well if it doesnt work I am sure it will be fine in the oven too.
M: Ok

This was huge. It was a disastrous opening with my initial response that I regretted as soon as it left my mouth. I was so pissed at what I percieved as teh PRESUMPTUOUSNESS of her tone. But after I left and came back, the follow through and resolution just felt so good. I hope we can learn to resolve all conflicts like that where we both are happy and respect eachother.


Second: We watched Time Travelers Wife after dinner.
I cant what specifically touched me, but I had a definate reaction to it and was trying not to show it to our guest and her. She noticed and said "You are either falling asleep or crying." (silence) "Are you awake" (I nodded). Our guest got up for the bathroom and I got up to go to the sink. She asked me what I liked about the movie. I wish so badly that I would have just answered. I was choked up wasnt sure words would have come out and I didnt want our guest to show up in the middle of a "moment" so I asked if we could please talk about it tomorrow? She actually smiled and said "sure." (short silence) I said as I left the room, "I liked that they werent perfect." She said good night to me, which hasnt been a norm for the last few weeks, so I really appreciated it.

I am so excited for tomorrow. Its MONDAY! That means places might be open and a PERSON might answer when I call them. I might be able to get some things DONE!!


Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: My thread - 05/03/10 11:06 AM
BT, you asked what you can do, and you mentioned above the AOs. Who wants to live with a tyrant? How about reading the article on AOs, and going to your wife and telling her you see that this is harmful behavior, you're sorry for having indulged in it, and will make amends by eliminating it?

I'm not sure what to say about your wife being gone for hours every night, and this guy you all were living with, that she wants to live with once you're separated. It's like a chicken-or-egg thing, you sound like you don't have the information to know whether your wife's attitude about your M is from comparing with this or some other guy or not. Have other folks suggested you do some snooping? What do you think?

You mentioned she made a comment "omg, how stupid can you be, just throwing money away." BT, how can you nip these in the bud, because that is like the the opposite of the warm inviting home you're trying to create, where you two are both at your best? Some folks respond to sympathy, "oh, wow, it sounds like there's really something wromng, what's the matter?" It's like she's not mad about the beans, but what they remind her of, and she's not confident that you want to hear her perspective yet, so she complains about trivial stuff instead. If it's beans on the counter, maybe it's a fear of finincial security? If you can get the dialogue going, I think that would be easier than saying, "well, if you won't tell me in a way that's easy for me to hear, then I won't know and that's it." Not the all or nothing, finding the middle ground.

What do you think about calling the Harleys? I saw the post their radio show comes back on today. Have you read the article, Why Women Leave Men?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/04/10 01:13 AM
Yes I read the article why Women Leave Men. I showed it to her and she read it. She thinks his statements about the woman are dead on.

But she doesnt think the rest applies.

You might be right about teh complaints of trivial things having a different reason. I dont know. I have done the "I am sorry for the things I have done." I told her again tonight. She says "OK" but I get the idea that she still doesnt trust me. I can understand that, but I am working on things and doing my best.

I am 100% for calling the Harley's. I am not rich, but compared to her and where we are going, the money is nothing. As long as my baby boy is taken care of and she is taken care of I dont need anything else for me.

I asked her about it. I was using the "radical honesty" and told her that its a marraige and relationship focused counseling service that is done over the phone so that we dont have to leave. She asked if it costs money. I said yes. She said well that seems dumb since we have a free appointment with a counselor on base. I told her that I would probably do the phone therapist either way if nothing else than for me, but am willing to "try" the free one before calling. I also said that if I do call them I would like it if she joined me on the call. She gave a non-commital response.

I am having trouble communicating what I am feeling, being honest about it, and trying to really connect with her. I keep analyzing things and thinking when I should be just listening and understanding. It is very hard to break this habit. I was explaining POJA to her tonight because she was saying after reading teh "why women leave men" she thought POJA was stupid and didnt apply to us. I meant to ask her what she meant and why she felt that way, and what she was feeling, but she asked me a question, and before I know it I was basically lecturing her on what it meant and she wasnt really listening because (I assume) she is tired of being lectured at. I wasnt mean about it, didnt raise my voice or anything, but it was another one way conversation of me telling her she is wrong.

I dont want to do that anymore. I am having trouble stopping. We talk about things so often, and always have and never get to the feelings and the connections.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/04/10 01:18 AM
Is it Independant Behavior if I want us to recover from this, if I want us to be happy again, and I do things that I think will help with that, even though she doesnt want it right now, or possibly ever?

Is it dishonesty if I tell her that a counselor might help us communicate better without fighting so that we CAN be friends like she says she wants, even though I REALLY mostly want to go to counseling with her so that she can see that we COULD be happy, and to help me BE better so I can be someone she wants to be around? I know that if we reach that point, then we will be communicating better and be freiends, but it feels wrong.

I told her tonight the "other" reason I want to go to counseling, just on the off chance she changes her mind I want to be someone worth sticking around for. She kinda smirked but didnt say anything.

So lost and confused.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: My thread - 05/04/10 01:38 AM
Quote
"What am I gonna do when the best part of me was always you."

I just heard that song for the first time the other night, and I have to say that my first reaction to that line was NOT like NED's. I think it betrays the singer's emotional immaturity and neediness. That line alone explains why the girl he laments left for someone better. I wanted to tell that pathetic singer to go get his own life! (Ok, that was NOT my most compassionate moment, but honest!)

Quote
I keep analyzing things and thinking when I should be just listening and understanding.

I do this too. And I too have been working on it. Analyzing is very much a DJ, because I can't really KNOW. Instead, focus on the facts, and my feelings about the facts. And when in doubt, keep my mouth shut and ears open.


Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: My thread - 05/04/10 02:00 AM
A few thoughts after reading through.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
***Recreational Companionship - We sort of get this because we take our son out for things. I try to talk to her while we are out and try to stay pleasant as well as try to make the activities fun. She does not want to excercise with me or generally acompany me on anything at this point.

This is not RC. It must be done with undivided attention. Just clarifying. This is more family commitment.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
***Honesty and Openness - I am not having a problem with honesty part, but the openness part I am not sure about. I feel like if I told her some things I think and feel (like that I think she is being incredibly selfish by choosing to end our marraige rather than give it a serious try) then she would leave. I guess this shows a lack of faith in her and a lack of respect for her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner, but I guess I DONT respect her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner. I dont know how to fix this, I will need to work on this one somehow. Looking for ideas.

No, your comment about thinking she is being incredibly selfish is not O&H. It is a DJ.

However, saying to us that you don�t respect her ability to make her own decisions is HUGE honesty on your part. Kudos to you for this self-awareness. Turn it around and that says that you acknowledge that you are disrespectful of her ability to make her own decisions. Even if you don�t say it, trust me she knows by your tone and past actions. This is probably one reason she feels �unsafe� You can change this about yourself. However, if you change this about yourself simply for her benefit she will see right through it, not trust it, and you will likely be very disappointed, because she probably has 10 other reasons why she feels unsafe around you, most of which she probably isn�t aware of. And remember it is NOT your job to make her aware. That�s her side of the street not yours.

However, if you change this disrespectful attitude of yours because you now realize it�s wrong and goes against your own code of behavior, regardless of how she reacts or responds, there�s a good chance that change will be trusted. It probably will not be enough. Just one small pebble in the brook.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
***Family Commitment - I quit playing video games and reading recreational books, as well as quit most activities other than dealing with my son during the time I am home and he is awake. I am doing a lot of personal "self help" stuff to improve myself as a person (and therefore a father) as well as reading the "Parenting" magazines we get. I have asked her opinion on things to do with our son for development, asked her without prompting how doctors visits etc go, and taken a lot more effort to properly exercise and work on training our dog (Siberian Husky)

Would you talk to my husband, please? smile

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Selfish Demands - I dont think I have had a problem with this. I cannot recall a time that I have told her "do this because I want it, I dont care if you dont want it." This perception may be due to a misunderstanding on what Selfish Demands are. I believe I am much more guilty of Independant Behavior, rather than selfish demands. I dont demand that she do something, I just do what I want...

I bet you don�t make thoughtful requests either, though. My husband (who sounds a bit like you, but unwilling to give up IB) rarely makes selfish demands. However, he does not request much from me either. DJ alert . . . I believe it is because he is afraid that if he makes a request of me, I will retaliate by making requests of HIM. Actually, I would be thrilled if he would make requests of me, and complaints too for that matter, because when he does, I take such things VERY seriously.



Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I am trying to figure out a way for us to sit down and set up some ground rules for Negotiations. She has previously said that its something we should do.

This is exactly what POJA is. Ground rules. Don�t do anything that you can�t both agree to enthusiastically. Start with small things together (like grocery shopping). In my case, I am only holding myself to POJA. I use it as my own personal boundary against sacrificing me for marriage, or asking my husband to sacrifice for me. What my husband chooses to do when we negotiate and problem solve is his business, and if he chooses IB, I accept it, dislike it, let him know, and then it�s his problem, not mine.

Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: My thread - 05/04/10 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Emotional Infidelity. One of the first responses was "is she having an affair?" I said no, no physical affairs, but while I still believe that, rereading the part about emotional affairs I think is possible. During the 4 months we stayed in a place till we got our house, another of the "roommates" was a ~60yr old guy that I also work with. He is a nice guy and enjoys watching TV. Since I was playing games, and my wife watches TV, they would hang out. In addition, for a while my work schedule was weird, so he would have a day off while I was working, and they would hang out all day. Now she considers the guy a friend, even I consider him a friend and a decent guy. However, they talk frequently, he has stayed over, and she has mentioned since he is unhappy staying in the place we had just left, she wanted to ask him to be her roommate to save costs. They both asked me if I would throw a fit about it, and I said no it seemed fine to me.

Now it doesnt. Now that I think about it, she wasnt really "adamant" about her leaving until the last couple months, and I wonder if it was due to having some of her Emotional Needs being met by this guy. I would bet my life there is no physical intimacy going on, but I know they share a lot of thier feelings and stuff. I already am pretty sure the need for Conversation is one of my wifes major needs, and she seems to turn to him now for that need.

Does this sound like an affair? Am I wrong to now not be comfortable with them living together? Do I have a right to tell her that she shouldnt be such good friends with him since it was emotional infidelity? I would love to hear any other viewpoints so maybe I can get a new angle to work on this helps me make sense of it.

Thanks to any and all of you that are bothering to work through my walls of text and leave thoughts. I really appreciate it a lot!

Well, since you would be the "betrayed spouse" you are the one who gets to decide whether it is emotionaly infidelity or not. If you think it is, then it is. Her needs ARE being met by a male friend. MB believes that there is aboslutely no place for friends of the opposite sex in marriage. At all.
You ought to have this thread move to the survviving an affair board. Also, read up on Mark 1952. He could have a lot of very wise advice for you with regard to this. I'll send a shout out to him to come visit your thread.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/04/10 02:46 AM
I am reading through these responses. I need to read them again... thanks so much...
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/04/10 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by thinkinitthru66
Quote
"What am I gonna do when the best part of me was always you."

I think it betrays the singer's emotional immaturity and neediness.

I think its a great example of the "Why Women Leave Men." She fell out of love due to neglect, and now he is hurting because he wasnt aware of any problem due to his neglecting her. I think this guy could learn a lot from this site, but his song is basically where I was about 3 weeks ago... so it resonates. I feel like I could give him an idea on "what hes supposed to do..."

Quote
Analyzing is very much a DJ, because I can't really KNOW. Instead, focus on the facts, and my feelings about the facts. And when in doubt, keep my mouth shut and ears open.

This summed it up nicely, I like it. It IS a DJ. I hadnt realized that.

Quote
No, your comment about thinking she is being incredibly selfish is not O&H. It is a DJ.

However, saying to us that you don�t respect her ability to make her own decisions is HUGE honesty on your part. .... This is probably one reason she feels �unsafe� You can change this about yourself. However, if you change this about yourself simply for her benefit she will see right through it, not trust it, and you will likely be very disappointed, because she probably has 10 other reasons why she feels unsafe around you, most of which she probably isn�t aware of. And remember it is NOT your job to make her aware. That�s her side of the street not yours.

However, if you change this disrespectful attitude of yours because you now realize it�s wrong and goes against your own code of behavior, regardless of how she reacts or responds, there�s a good chance that change will be trusted.

This is spot on. Its a conclusion I came to her and told her about. That many of these things I am working on, its not just her that is annoyed by it. My not respecting other peoples ability to make their own decisions because I am think I am so much better REALLY PISSES PEOPLE OFF. It also irritates me off, because I dont REALLY think I should make everyones decisions for them. So yes, its a thing I want to work on for me.

Quote
This is exactly what POJA is. ... In my case, I am only holding myself to POJA. I use it as my own personal boundary against sacrificing me for marriage, or asking my husband to sacrifice for me. What my husband chooses to do when we negotiate and problem solve is his business, and if he chooses IB, I accept it, dislike it, let him know, and then it�s his problem, not mine.

I need to find a way to your zen. I can handle the sticking to POJA alone I think, with time developing it as a habit, but the idea of "what she does is her business" is terrifying. This is my DJ coming back to mess me up I think. If "what she does" is choose to adhere to POJA, and work to fix this, then fine by me, but if she doesnt and still wants to leave and not try, to me that doesnt make sense and I dont know how to handle it. Its like meeting a guy who has been in the desert stranded for 3 days on the cusp of death, offering him water, and he says "no I'm good." I would think that guy is just insane or delusional or not thinking "right." So do I not think she is thinking right? Who am I to decide what she is allowed to think? So how do I share myself, adhere to POJA, and then what if she doesnt? You said accept it, tell him, and then its his problem. What do you do after that?

I need to learn how to LET GO. I am not her puppet master. No wonder she feels controlled and stifled. Like she hasnt been allowed to grow. How do I learn to accept it?
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: My thread - 05/04/10 03:44 AM
My zen? That's funny smile I'm so NOT zen most of the time. I do a lot of pity partying.

However, the nice thing about character defects is that if I can spot it in someone else, chances are it's also one of my own character defects which is hidden from my awareness. Sometime when you are bored you should make a list of all the things about your wife that irritate the heck out of you. Then try to stop doing those things yourself and see what happens smile

You are right on track. You have to learn how to let go and learn to accept. For me, saying the serenity prayer helps. "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference." Yes, it is cliche. But the only thing you CAN change is yourself. If you attempt to change other people, places and things, you will find yourself becoming as crazy as that nut job in the desert refusing water.

Sometimes we prefer to spend our energy spinning our wheels tryint to change what we can't, because deep down we are afraid of what will happen when we put that same energy into changing what we can - ourselves.

You are not responspible for the outcome, only the effort. Reminding myself of this helps me to let go.

Practicing, making mistakes, doing better next time. That's how we learn. It does not happen overnight. Especially acceptance. Today, I can accept my husband's IB and irritating traits. Tomorrow, I may not. Some days are better than others. I do my best. He can choose to accept THAT, or not.

I'm really sorry to hear about your premature son. I have several friends who've had micro-premies. What an ache your wife and you must both have. I felt for you when you talked about the March of Dimes thing and just wanting a hug from her.

It is OK to ask your wife for a hug. I know it is terrifying. You're afraid of her rejection. I know, I have avoided asking for things all of my life because of that fear. Asking for what we want is a humbling experience, because it means admitting that I am imperfect and can't do it all. It means shedding the mask. And it means being vulnerable. But asking is also power, good power. We can choose to be deflated by a rejection, or choose to not take it personally and give others the dignity of their own choice, even if it is a callous, mean, insensitive choice. It's theirs, let them own it. By not asking, you are robbing her of the chance to say yes or no, and robbing her of a type of dignity and respect.

OK, I'm done for the evening. You're doing fine. Get some help from the SAA folks. They will know how to handle this "friend." I have not doubt both he and your wife have innocent intentions, but that's usually how it starts. Yes, your wife may be pissed in the short term if you ask her to cut this person out of your lives, if you decide to take a stand for your marriage. I've done some lurking on the affair boards and you could be in for a rough road ahead.

Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 05/04/10 04:10 AM
BT,

Think asked me to stop by and look at your thread. I actually looked at it before but thought you had some folks helping you out that could get you going in the right direction and because my job now pretty much prevents me from getting much MB time in during the day, I figured I'd let somebody else try to help you out. But since Think called me to come have a look and because I'm here reading, I will give you a couple bits of advice.

First of all, your wife absolutely IS having an affair. She might not even think of it that way because she feels that she hasn't crossed any lines yet. The thing is that an affair isn't really a line that gets crossed it is really more of a process that takes place like turning off the main highway and heading down a road to some town where the city limits are still quite some distance off. The thing is that the road is going there and so is anyone that is on that road.

Many who have an affair, in my opinion more women than men though I have no evidence for it right now, start down that road without ever realizing that it is where the road is taking them. Since they aren't really sexually attracted to the soon to be affair partner they feel that there is nothing beyond friendship that is taking place.

The thing is that once a person is allowed to meet any of our emotional needs for us, they begin to make deposits into our love bank and without even realizing it we start to crave the feelings that we get when with that person.

Now especially if she feels that there is no physical attraction involved your wife probably doesn't see any problems with having a relationship with some guy that is 60 years old. After all, she tells herself, it isn't like she is lusting after his body for sex or anything.

The problem comes from the fact that an unfair comparison is taking place, She is comparing you with all the known faults, maybe years of feeling that you didn't recognize the things she wanted from you etc with some guy that is simply talking to her and sharing some sort of emotional connection. Since she doesn't really know much about him and doesn't ever have to deal with his "dark side" where he might have a bad day or get angry and start yelling (he has nothing invested in a relationship with her and so has no reason to protect his territory since it isn't his to begin with) she sort of fills in the gaps with things she imagines.

That means that you aren't competing against a 60 year old man but against a brand new fantasy that has no bad history, only pure romantic nonsense.

Now if you were to ask me if your wife is wanting to run off with this guy and live happily ever after I would have to answer that I do not believe that to be the case. But what has happened is that your wife has created this fantasy that real life can't hope to compete with and so she isn't comparing you to him at all but to some ideal that she has created. The part of this that is so dangerous is that if this guy is attracted to her and has much in the tank at all (trust me when I say that 60 doesn't mean dead, I'm only two years from that myself) and so he might be highly attracted to your wife and for him that might be enough to get him to keep feeding her whatever she needs in order to keep the fantasy growing.

Like I said, right now she isn't really planning to marry this guy. She is however using what she is getting from him in the way of having her ENs met to dismantle her connection to you. She is having feelings for him even without sexual attraction and to her this is telling her that she is no longer attracted to you and so can't possibly be in love with you any more. So for her this is a place to begin her journey for the real true love of her life, since she has no discounted you as being that person.

So that is the bad news...

The good news is that she fell in love with you before and she can fall in love with you all over again. You have given a lot of reasons why you can't meet her ENs for her. It might not have been unmet ENs as much as Love Busters that did the damage in the first place, but you still need to try to meet her ENs in any way that she allows.

You stand a lot better chance of getting her to let you meet her ENs if you stop trying to convince her to stay with you all together and work instead at becoming the man she fell in love with before and the man she can fall in love with again.

Do not fear losing her, BT. She is already planning to leave. Concentrate on doing things that will give her a reason to stay and give up on trying to find a way to get her to stay. I hope you understood that. You can't make her stay. You need to give her a reason to stay and work on the marriage and when I say give her a reason, I am not talking about reasoning with her and trying to convince her. You can't fix the relationship in order to save it and must save it first if you hope to fix it. Don't try to educate her. Don't ry to convince her. Don't try to force her to see the light. Don't try to explain it to her...

Just do a couple of focused and specific things...

1) Meet whatever ENs she allows you to meet as often and as graciously as you can.
2) Identify any Love Buster behavior in yourself and kill it dead, bury it and set it on fire. Destroy love busters and rid your life of them.

Any time she spends with you has to be the most enjoyable part of her life. Arguing will not accomplish that so simply do not argue...even if she starts it, don't argue with her.

If you can afford to talk to Steve Harley, call and make an appointment...Not next week, do it ASAP. If you can't afford it then at least get Surviving An Affair. Either buy it or check it out at the library. (That is where I got a copy to read when I first got here.)

Snoop like the CIA to figure out how far this relationship with the 60 year old has gone. Cell phone records, phone records, emails, SMS (test messages) can all show a pattern. Also keep an open mind as to the possibility that it is actually someone else that is the real problem right now, though if for no other reason that the danger of allowing another man to live in your home makes me think he is at least the trigger to the problem if not the specific affair partner of her dreams...


Once you know for sure what is going on, blow the whistle on it without warning. People will help you get the idea of exposure down and you will of course resist it claiming to lack evidence, that exposure targets will side with her and them and that if you expose this you will make things worse...

Been there, done that, heard it all before...You aren't going to come up with anything new so just skip it and work on a list of who you might expose the affair to. You don't need iron-clad proof or even proof that will hold up in court. All you need is enough to convince yourself that your wife is cheating on you. Look for it, find it and then expose what you know is true to anyone who might be able to make it harder to have an affair than to work on the marriage.

Be aware that when you finally do expose the affair, she will tell you that you have blown any chance that she will ever love you ever again. She will say that she was thinking about working on the marriage but now you have blown it and it is your fault that she hates you and...

Just simply ignore it...

Read up on Plan A. Read the articles, the Q&A columns about infidelity, the book SAA, anything people point you to. Knowledge is your best friend right now. The more you can learn about combating infidelity the better you can fight. Remember that your fight is with a fantasy, the affair itself and not your wife. It also helps to imagine that the person you see that looks like your wife is really an alien who has kidnapped her and replaced her with a clone programmed to hurt you and try to destroy your marriage and rob you of your will to fight for your wife.

Read the first couple pages of my "Musings" thread linked in my sig line. If you haven't yet read them, go to the Notable Posts forum and read WAT's Quick Start Guide and Longhorn's thread for newly betrayed spouses.

Your situation is not hopeless, BT. Stop trying to convince yourself that it is and do something to stop the bleeding. You can give up without a fight if you want to but if you want to fight then train, learn and fight remembering that you need to fight the affair and not your wife or even the other man. You need to fight the fantasy and you can do that most effectively by offering her something that is better than the fantasy because she knows it is real. Make being with you a better option than being with OM or ANY OM because YOU are the man she can't live without.

You have NO control over anything she does, That means NONE, Nada, zip, zilch, zero, nothing, not one tiny little bit... Don't even try to change her mind or her heart or her actions or her words. Focus on what you have control over. That would be what YOU do, BT. That is all you can predetermine the outcome of for any actions you might choose. Choose only actions that make her see you as her hero and avoid anything that makes her see you as her enemy.

Fight the affair by making the affair harder and working on the marriage easier. Fight the affair by making yourself the best BT that has ever been and let her see that you are him. Fix yourself to save your marriage and if you save it worry about fixing the marriage once you know you have it back

Bull riding is eight seconds (if you hang on that long)of total terror usually followed by a sudden <THUD> when you hit the ground. Fighting an affair by using Plan A is going to be just as terrifying, just as dangerous, just as hard and last a lot longer. So mount up, wrap up and git 'er done. Cowboy up!

Nobody can give you the magic words because there aren't any. No one will hand you a magic bullet because magic has nothing to do with it. You stand a chance of pulling this off if you do everything right. If you do nothing you stand no chance at all.

Meet her ENs
Avoid Love Busters
Identify your enemy by snooping and attack the affair by exposing it to anyone who might tell her or him to stop this stupid teenage actions and get real.

My posts aren't all this length.
Most of 'em are longer...

Mark
Posted By: 8thgraders Re: My thread - 05/04/10 04:38 AM
book marking this one !!! good job mark !
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/04/10 10:09 AM
Mark,

I graciously thank you for this, will be printing it out and reading it again when I feel like crap and need a kick in the rear to move me.

You are right, the idea of this OM and exposing it is just unbelievably terrifying. If they never do anything with it, can I still expose it as an affair, even if they "only" meet EN's? I know a couple people I can tell that too that she values. That I could dang near copy paste your explanation or the one in QnA Letters and explain it like that and it would go through. I dont feel like I could prove it "in court" though, but maybe I dont have to?
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 05/04/10 12:02 PM
BT,

I suggest that you click on <Notify> and ask the mods to move this to SAA.

Study Plan A so you know what you need to do and what you need to expect. Then develop a PLAN and don't just flounder around. Then follow your PLAN instead of just floundering around in response to what she does.

Mark
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/04/10 10:33 PM
ok, I am halfway through the Infidelity QnA's. I noticed that the plans are on the bottom.

In good news, her dad is getting a phone and called her from another. She told me he told her that moving and starting a new job and all the other stresses combined with marraige stresses isnt a very good recipe for making positive changes, and that maybe we are settled she should give it a little time to see. She told him that she "gave him a chance and he didnt do it" but.... she only told him that her decision was final as far as moving out at least to spend a little time on her own.

Now, this is interesting, because she has told me that it is final as far never being together again. So she tells her dad something different, who she trusts. I cant read her mind, but that is a sign to me that she is not so sure of her choice. I am hoping its because she is noticing noticing my commitment.

Regardless, I felt so proud of her today. I realized what several people have already said and it clicked. She is protecting herself. For the whole time we have been married she nearly always put up with things she didnt like, without complaining. She sacrificed her wants because she thought that would make us happy. Now she is learning that its ok to have wants and have them filled. She has come to me with "I wish you would do THIS," with a sort of tone that says she expects this to be an issue or a fight and that I am not going to support her. The reality is I want her to be happy, and while I have learned that I should not sacrifice myself for her happiness, if I can happily give her something she needs, than we both win, and when she saw me say "ok" and do it, her jaw kinda dropped, then she closed her mouth, turned to the side, and head tilted to the side watching me out of the corner all thoughtfully.

She is so beautiful. I cant believe how I neglected her, but that time is over.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/05/10 01:35 AM
Plan A and B in action:

So, I used to play computer games a lot. A LOT. It was an independant behavior, often times selfish demand (why cant you just leave me alone, I am busy), disrespectful judgement (I think you just wait till I am busy to ask me to do things), angry outburst (see SD statement, different tone), and, well you can see it.

My wife, without knowing, used Plan A and B on me.

Plan A - she told me I wasnt being a part of her and my sons life, and I needed to make time for them, suggesting maybe instead of playing games I could try, you know, living life. It escalated from there, since I didnt stop, though I said I would play less, or make time for her, and so on, and she escalated it, making her displeasure known.

Then, she decided it wasnt working and went to Plan B. She cut me out of her life emotionally. I missed her. I am not sure if I quit all games before I noticed this, or if I quit, and then with all the free time, THEN noticed that she wasnt emotionally there. Either way, its pretty much Plan B.

Only problem for me is... she wasnt using them with the intent of saving our marriage, she using them to protect herself, which is her right. So now that I "got the messege," it might be too late.

This is not a pity party, just a thought I had after reading about the handling infidelity all day today... it can work any time your spouse is "cheating" on you with anything else. If they are avoiding emotions and thereby avoiding fulfilling your needs by playing a game alone instead of conversing, being affectionate, family commitments, or recreational activities together, well... that game, or activity, is the OM or OW in an Emotional Affair.

I remember going through "withdrawal" with all my free time when I quit. I questioned whether the "fun" I had was really less important than other things in my life. Luckily I realized immediately that the temporary good feeling I gained by avoiding my emotions and playing a game did not compare to the feelings of acceptance and fulfillment my marriage had been a source of.

Is this completely misinterpreting it? Is it possible to have an emotional affair with, say, hackeysack? or reading books? or any other sort of activity that doesnt even involve another person?
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 05/05/10 11:11 PM
BT,

I wouldn't say it is an EA, but it certainly can be an addiction, which is really what an affair is all about. The person in an affair becomes addicted to the affair partner, in exactly the same way they can become addicted to anything.

Anything that stimulates our pleasure/reward center in our brain causes massive amounts of chemicals to be released that triggers the release of neurotransmitters. These neurotransmitters provide us with a bunch of emotional responses including a sort of euphoria (dopamine), well being (serotonin) and other feelings including connectedness (vasopressin) and bonding (oxytocin). The two biggies as far as addiction are concerned are dopamine and serotonin and the precursor of dopamine, PEA.

So while not really a case of falling in love with a game, the chemicals involved are actually the same ones. In any kind of affair or in fact in any relationship that involves sexual attraction as well, the sexual stimulus in both men and women is provided by testosterone. Typically an affair, even one that has no physical component, includes sexual attraction, but beyond that, an affair (or the feeling of romantic love) and any other addiction is chemically nearly identical.

Time to get a plan together, BT. First you need to identify what her top Emotional Needs might be. Typically women have in their top ENs Conversation, Affection, Financial Support, Family Commitment, and Honesty/Openness. While some might have some of the ones typically indicated by men as top ENs, it can safely be assumed that two of the top 5 will be Conversation and Affection.

Based on what you said your wife stated in the past, I would focus on trying to come up with a plan to attempt to meet Conversation, Affection and Family Commitment, though Honesty/Openness should not be far from your mind either.

The easy way out would be to point to Recreational Companionship as the key, but it is more likely that she has other ENs that mean more to her than having a good time with a friend and typically, RC falls under the general list of a man's most important ENs. Not saying it can't happen, but her efforts to get you to spend time with her more likely indicate her need for you to spend time with the family and her, talking honestly and openly about life in general and your lives to be more specific.

If you can swing it, calling the coaching center to talk to Steve or Jennifer will net you more rapid return than simply reading and posting here on the forums. Now I put together a Plan A by reading here and in the books and talking to someone who had been through Dr Harley's material in the past, though honestly, he wasn't all that much of an encouragement to keep plugging along. That is what the forums can give you, BTW, is the encouragement you need to keep going in the face of what appears to be failure.

If you do two things, and concentrate on just those two things, you stand a better chance of saving your marriage than by trying to react to whatever she might do in response to any given action on your part. Those two things boil down to this: 1) Meet her Emotional Needs & 2) Avoid all Love busters.

But you also need to snoop in order to rule out that she might be having an affair of any kind. Keep in mind that people leave their spouse over emotional affairs as often as physical ones. The relationship suffers that same decline and the same detrimental comparisons to a fantasy involving someone that is only known as an online personality as if the person lived across the street and was sneaking into your house 5 minutes after you left for work in the morning and staying all day.

Whether trying to win back a spouse who is having an affair or simply one who is in a sate of Withdrawal, the steps are really the same; meet her ENs, and avoid Love Busters. If there is an affair an additional step is also needed, that of making the affair less attractive than the marriage. This is done by exposing the affair to anyone who might have influence over either of the affair partners and by doing other things that make the affair harder to continue than ending it.

But if there is no affair, then the problem is simply that she has fallen out of love with you. The good news is that falling in love with you again is a very real possibility if you can become the man she wants to fall in love with. To that end...

Meet her ENs
Avoid Love Busters.

Mark
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/06/10 02:49 AM
I didnt know that about all the specific chemicals, but its interesting to know that they are basically the same minus the sexual attraction (testosterone).

As for my plan, thats about it right there. I am trying to meet EN's and stomp out LB's. I have my earlier post where I have them all listed out and my "plan" or "progress" with them. I am using that post and will probably update it soon, to kinda keep tabs on and track myself for now.

I have a question though.

With this possibility of an EA and exposing it. I want to be honest and open with her. I dont want to hide things from her. I dont feel right with the idea of exposing her without telling her how I feel first. I think since I gave them the "ok" to hang out, I should at least state that I am not ok with it before accusing anyone of an EA.

Early on in their friends (her and the OM) she would ask if I was ok with her sitting on the couch with him watching tv, or going to the store together. At the time I reasoned that I would look like an insecure and untrusting control freak if I didnt let her have her 1 friend, so I said sure.

What I REALLY did was avoid telling her my feelings. What I really did was sacrifice myself and lie to her to "make her happy" because of my DJ of her ability to hear my true feelings and handle them. What I REALLY did was throw away an opportunity to show her how much I love her by telling her how I felt and offering to be the one that went to the store with her or sat on the couch and watched TV with her.

So you mentioned calling the Harley's.

I want to, I will probably do it regardless and have told her. However, she already agreed to go with me to an MC (appointment on Monday, 10 May) and she suggested we go to the "free" (we dont have to pay anything out of pocket) one first. I agreed that its worth a try, though I am anxious and afraid we might get a "divorce" counselor.

However, a main reason I agreed was becuase I recognized myself and what I was doing. I am comfortable with the Harley's because I have been on this site and it makes sense. I know that I will be asked to do a lot of work and make a lot of changes and it will be hard, but since I can anticipate this, I still feel some control.

It is very hard for me to give up control. It makes me feel anxious afraid and insecure.

So going to this "free" MC and not knowing anything about it, while she does the same I think kinda shows a trust. My wife is willing to give up the control and go to this stranger. The only reason I should feel insecure and afraid is if I really believed that my wife wasnt intelligent enough to be able to also recognize if the counselor was doing more harm than good. I dont. So I will go with an open mind and find the positives. I can be happy that she is going with me at all. I still would rather have a Marraige Coach than a Counselor, but who knows what we will get.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/08/10 02:47 AM
Update on ENs' LBs' and my plan:

Here is what I am working on right now:

EMOTIONAL NEEDS (*** - things I am specifically working on or am able to work on)

Affection - I cannot really work on this in many ways since she has told me specifically to not touch her or show affection. I picked her wild flowers today on my way home from work. Also have a mothers day "mother" locket with our family laser etched into it.

Sexual Fufillment - Completely not allowed to even attempt to fulfill this one. Says she is disgusted by me, even though she still thinks physically I am very attractive.

***Conversation - Having trouble with my habits. I am getting better at listening, but I am still debating a lot and not negotiating. She gets very frustrated. Also, I am having a LOT of trouble thinking of things to talk about BESIDES us, which is obviously NOT happy and therefore does not meet EN's

***Recreational Companionship - Ok, so we dont really get any of this. I have attempted to watch TV with her, where we talk during commercials about the show. I really dislike TV for the most part, but am willing to watch some to interact with her. I always have KINDA an idea whats going on in her shows, and she seems to enjoy "catching me up" on whats been going on. However, I dont know if this is considered RC.

***Honesty and Openness - I am still not having a problem with honesty part, but the openness part I am still not sure about. I feel like if I told her some things I think and feel (like that I think she is being incredibly selfish by choosing to end our marraige rather than give it a serious try) then she would leave. I guess this shows a lack of faith in her and a lack of respect for her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner, but I guess I DONT respect her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner. I dont know how to fix this, I will need to work on this one somehow. I am still looking for ideas. This is one of the things, after our appointment on Monday, when I call Dr. Harley again, I am sure will get a lot of help on this.

Physical Attractiveness - She has said that she still thinks I am very attractive, just that she isnt attracted to me because of her "hate and resentment." Still, I have restarted my workout regimen, going at it for almost 3 weeks now and it is showing results already.

Financial Support - I think this one is fine in that I make enough for us at this time. She has a nicer house than she expected to have (even though she wants to leave it).

***Domestic Support - K, I am still doing good on this. She hasnt told me NOT to do her laundry when I have taken stuff out and folder, merely saying, "You dont have to do that." I respond with, "I want to do it for you, you do many things for me, I like the chance to do something for you."

***Family Commitment - I quit playing video games and reading recreational books, as well as quit most activities other than dealing with my son during the time I am home and he is awake. I am doing a lot of personal "self help" stuff to improve myself as a person (and therefore a father) as well as reading the "Parenting" magazines we get. I have asked her opinion on things to do with our son for development, asked her without prompting how doctors visits etc go, and taken a lot more effort to properly exercise and work on training our dog (Siberian Husky). I have NOT scheduled any recreational activities as a family. I must do better with this one. I have a couple days off next week. Maybe do it then.

***Admiration - She has stated that she hasnt ever felt appreciated for what she does. I have been making a point to say "Thank you" for everything. I also have been making a point of identifying when I feel proud of something she does, and being sure to tell her. "I am so proud of the work you did and all effort you made to raise that money for the March of Dimes." This has been helped my personal effort to see positives in things instead of always seeing the negatives. I am hoping this shows and allows me to be more pleasant.


LOVE BUSTERS

Selfish Demands - IOk, I didnt think this one was an issue. It is. Big time. I am very controlling, not in the blatant "do this now" but in the, if I am not in control I will be mean and manipulative and badgering until I get the control, and then I will be pleasant again. I am working on my trust issue and allowing other people control and being ok with it. So far, it hasnt shown a result in her that I can detect, but I can definately feel the beginnings of changes in me. I am much more comfortable. Not done yet, but better.

Disrespectful Judgements - K, both of us are terrible on this one. Either at the counselor on Monday or after we see him, I am going to talk to her and lay it out. "I am never going to intentionally do something that hurts you. If I hurt you, I would appreciate it if you would assume its not on purpose, and to please tell me so that I am allowed the opportunity to fix it or not repeat it." Today, I got a call, said "I will be outside" and stepped out the door. Apparently she couldnt see me around the corner in the back yard, yelled for me and called my phone (didnt ring), and when I came in, she said "Maybe now that you arent so busy wandering off you can help out and maybe change the baby's diaper." I said "ok" and she turned away rolling her eyes. I said "what was taht, why did you roll your eyes? are you mad about something?" She wouldnt say anything, so I told her I cant avoid making her mad if I dont know what I did, and I honestly dont know. So she told me and almost got very heated, but I said I thought she heard me, and I never left the fence area, I am sorry I didnt hear you, and you can check my phone, no missed calls, it didnt ring. I then changed the baby, came back and said, "I am sorry I didnt make sure you knew where I was before stepping out, I will do better next time." She said thank you, and seemed ok for a while.

Angry Outbursts - I have not had a single AO first, and can count on 1 hand the number of AO's I have had immediately following one of hers. This doesnt sound good enough to me. I HAVE apologized for every one of my AOs, and do not usually get any back, but I will keep doing better at this.

Annoying Habits - WOW!! I have a TON of these. Big and small things that she finds annoying. Unfortunately, most of what she gives me has been in the form of Traits so I have been spending a lot of time thinking these over and trying to identify specific habits associated with the perception, and working on them.
You are inconsiderate and rude - I have begun being more concious of my manners and the way I act towards people (still doing GREAT with this one)
You are annoying - I know a couple things that annoy her, as far as like, picking up after myself, making noises while eating, putting certain things in a certain place, folding her tacos a certain way, etc, that I am working on and trying to remember. (same with this one)
You dont listen - Still working hard on Listening Skills and realling hearing her. Hoping the MC can help with this one some.

Independant Behavior - I have been guilty of this. I used to go to work and then come home and that woudl be it, no calls, didnt even know when I would be home. I have begun calling after my workout (8am), lunch time, and right before I leave, to keep her updated. We arent allowed to bring our phones into work for security reasons, but I have made sure she has the work number. At this point, I feel like i have to do many things independantly since she seems to refuse to engage in them with me. I have been good about this so far, and have made it a point to include her in any decision I am making (except trivial ones ie - which gas station to get gas from)

Dishonesty - This one is a real pain since I definately agree that it includes openness and transparency. I am doing these changes for me, but I also want her to see the changes and choose to stay. However, I dont feel I can tell her this. This is one example of many things I dont feel like I can really share with her right now. I am not sure where to draw the line. It used to be that I would tell her basically everything I could think of. Still torn on this one...


I am trying to figure out a way for us to sit down and set up some ground rules for Negotiations. She has previously said that its something we should do. We still havent done this, though my abiding by the four rules of negotiation has done wonders to calm several incidents already.

I am also trying to figure out a way to get her to do a Telephone MC with Doc Harley. I dont want to trick her into it, but I also dont want this to end and feel like I didnt do EVERYTHING I POSSIBLY COULD to try to save it. I am still working on this and am hoping to have more to try after Mondays appointment. I am not sure how it will go, but I am almost decided on calling Dr Harley regardless how it goes.

I am also trying to continue gathering information on AH's, IB's and other LBs that I might not be aware of yet. Cant think of anything specific, though I DO need to start writing any that I can think of down.

I am also working on trying to really identify her top emotional needs. Havent gotten too far on this. The no UA time is really slowing me down. I wish we could "hang out" like we used to.

I think so far it is:

Family Commitment
Affection
Conversation (she talks to friends a LOT now, and we USED to talk CONSTANTLY!)
Domestic Support

I am not sure if these are really the most important ones for her, or if they are the ones she has said because they are not being met. Need to keep investigating and seeking hints.
Posted By: Retread Re: My thread - 05/08/10 03:50 AM
BT,
I just got back from grocery shopping (late night, no one in the store to slow me down), and realized I had left my computer running. A few things pop into my mind:

How old are you and your wife? I missed that.

Why don't you just level with her and tell her you really don't know what is most important to her for you to do (just like that), and you know you do things that hurt her feelings, and you are trying to correct that, but you just don't know every time you do it, so would she please just let you know.

If she gets on board with this, and realizes she doesn't exactly know what she wants, the priority, or what jerks her chain, maybe she will buy into some guidance from the MB books or articles online. Maybe you show her the EN Questionnaire you filled out for her, and the Love Buster Questionnaire you filled out for her (but not your own). Then get her to correct it by filling one out herself.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/08/10 10:24 AM
Shopping in empty stores is a blast! Very fast.

26 (me)/ 24, married at 21/19

Leveled with her about that, that I want to do things better, am working on things, but would appreciate if she could help me out a bit with things. Right now, in withdrawal, she says she doesnt feel she needs to tell me these things since she is done already.

She has said "I was 19, I dont want or need the same things." We talked a lil about this, and she at one point said she didnt know what she needed.

I asked her about the ENQ as an idea to help either us or for anything in the future as a means to get to know ourselves better. She says I didnt need to do it since I am done.

I WILL show her the ENQ and LBQ and ask for corrections. Right now she seems to find every reason possible to stay away. That is a DJ since I didnt ask her, but, I fear that when I show her the ENQ / LBQ she is going to say something along the lines of "see you dont even know who I am." Since I now recognize this as a DJ, and because I honestly do want to change my habits, I will show her it anyway, open myself up and trust her, and see what happens.

I am trying to keep my body language from being defensive by focusing on the positives and hope, since it is always easy to hit someone who is already flinching. Figuratively. We dont hit eachother.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/08/10 10:37 AM
she watches Dr. Phil, so I also found this quote:

�Don't consider divorce until you've investigated every potential avenue of rehabilitation. You have to earn your way out of a marriage. Years of suffering does not mean you've been working on things. Unless and until you can look yourself in the mirror and know that you've tried everything there is and that you can walk out the door in peace and with no resentment, then you're not ready to be discussing divorce.


I know Dr. Phil isnt MB, and he doesnt agree with MB stuff all around, but some of his stuff does, especially the personal accountability. I especially liked this quote as another reference saying Divorce is NOT the answer when you still have problems, since you will just bring those same problems to your next relationship.

I am selfish for not wanting her to leave. She is a wonderful person, giving and caring mother. I also love her, and I dont want to see her hurt anymore which is what I fear will happen if she just leaves without giving it a try and resolving things. Thirdly, we have a 15month son and I sincerely believe the BEST thing for him would be a happy mom and dad, married, who know how to negotiate through things effectively where they both end up happy with the result, and still in love.



An interesting note on LISTENING SKILLS!
I read something in a book about practicing and it was saying its not fair to any human to make them talk at you while you practice listening. Turn on the tv to like, CSPAN or smethign where they talk for hours straight and force/train yourself to listen.

Every time your mind wanders, drag it back, pay attention to their body language and words, and really listen to them.

When you can listen to them for a half hour, than you should be ok to listen to people.

I am planning to do this, because I am a totally ROTTEN listener.

Same book said some characteristics of poor listening are: Planning your response before they finish, "Listening" for the briefest pause so you can interupt, Thinking about how much better you could say what the speaker is saying, or thinking about other things completely.

There were a couple more, but I do every one of those habitually. I am sure you can imagine what an LB it is.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/10/10 02:30 AM
Wow, HUGE day!

Mothers Day! Hope all you Mom's had a wonderful day!

I think my W did. She got a nice breakfast made for her, hung out with me and our son, and then he had to go down for a nap.

When he went down, she asked to talk. I used a lot of the things I have been reading in that Communication book as far as the way I interacted. I actually listened to her and let her get a lot off her chest. I wasnt PERFECT, but MUCH better, and she got to say a lot. She said she is done hurting and being hurt, she is still leaving and a bunch of other things, but in the end, she agreed that we need to work some things out and to communicate better if nothing else, than for our son. I told her I still loved her and am not going to give up on us or her happiness. She said she doesnt want our son to see us fighting and arguing. I told her I will never fight with her again. I will talk and negotiate with her, but I am done fighting, forever.

She actually smiled and said thank you.

Then she got her present that I had actually began the process of getting before she ever told me she was leaving. A locket with laser engraved pictures of her and our first son (who passed away the day after he was born) on one side and me and our second son on the other, and a message engraved in the back.

She smiled, almost started a happy cry, said she loved it, thank you, and gave me a hug.

It was a friend hug.

But a hug...

Now, we got our first counseling tomorrow. Its not an MB, its not one of the Harley's, she still doesnt like the idea of spending money on counseling when we can access a free one, since she says she isnt going to stay no matter what.

I think I get it, she is still hurting, I am in the red. Of course she doesnt want to stay. She also doesnt know how to say it, but I am listening now, and I hear her.

Today I deposited several units. Also, I think my biggest LBs were Selfish Demands, Independant Behavior, and probably DJ's, mostly in the way I used to talk to her and neglect her. I obviously havent been neglecting her, and I am getting better by the day at listening and really communicating.

Its not an MB counseling but I am hoping we can get a couple things out of it (to start):

1) Learn (both of us) to communicate better. We really need this. I am learning a lot on my own from books and stuff, but I can probably do a lot better with help. She also needs some help in this area, so this is a very good thing. We cant even talk without hurting eachother if we cant stay calm.

2) I am hoping a non-MC counselor can at least be an unbiased observer and help her see the things, if any, she can do to make herself happy, with me or anyone else in the future. Again, I would LOVE for her to stay with me, but even if she doesnt I want her to be happy, and she needs to continue to grow as a person and not trust someone else to do it for her.

3) Thirdly, I am hoping an MC can help her with resentment. She has a right to be angry with me. I dont want to see it ruin her life. Whether she moves on with me or without me, I hope she can resolve the anger and resentment, and move past it to really be happy.


I have also written her dad. I just said what I am doing, and what I have done. He can and probably will ask her for her side and give her whatever advice he thinks is best for her and our son. That is all I can ask for, and will be happy with whatever he tells her.

Ultimately, I am hoping MC + her dad can maybe get her to at least call Dr. Harley with me. I am hoping we can have many days like today where no LB withdrawals, and at least some EN deposits are made so maybe I can get to 0 and at least be given a shot. Earning her trust is going to be a long hard road, but I am ready for it. If I can get her on with Dr. Harley, than maybe the 3 of us can come up with a plan that respects her right to not be hurt, but also has a chance for us to work for us and our son.

Still hopeful...

Thank you all on the boards for your support and thoughts!
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/11/10 11:49 PM
Wow... counseling on Monday.

He's not Dr Harley, but he made her feel comfortable.

He didnt pick sides.
He did a fantastic job cutting through BS and getting right to the point of things.
He isnt an MB Type, rebuild love MC, but he did not accept that she has "decided" to leave as a permanent and irrevocable decision and did NOT move to Divorce Counseling, which was a big fear I had.

He asked some great questions:
W said "he hurt me"
MC: What did he do?
W: Neglect, uncaring, not open, etc
MC: Hmm, that must hurt. It went on for a while?
W: Yes
MC: So you still moved down from ME to NC with him in Nov. So what happened since then?
W: IDK, it didnt get better. We stayed with a friend, 5 adults + 1yr old kid in a 3 bedroom place.
MC: Hmm, that must have been very stressful. Did something happen?
W: No, I just got tired of it. Of him not trying.
MC: But he's trying now?
W: Well, I guess, I dont know.
MC: I just want to say, for your own personal health and happiness, saying a thing like "I have decided I will never..." about almost anything can be a dangerous thing that closes you off from many possibilities. Decide, make decisions, but dont consider them irrevocable.

She thought about that a lot.

Also, he did a lot to help break her Wall down. I was not being allowed to fill any ENs since she was "uncomfortable" with me being nice to her. He asked her whats wrong with being nice? Even if he WAS doing it just to keep you around, why not just take it and be happy someone is being nice to you? You say you have made your decision, nothing he does has to change it, so why feel uncomfortable? You decided. That doesnt mean that if you sleep together, have sex, or do anything that you have to change your decision.

He also mentioned that when she is rude and disrespectful to me because she is uncomfortable with me doing something nice, that our son sees that and its maybe not the neatest example.

So he may not be the BEST counselor... but

today, we both woke up feeling like crap. I am getting sick, and she had a migraine. Two of our best friends who are dating broke up last night and I was a shoulder for them, so W and I talked about that. We were on the couch together, and she likes it when you run your fingers lightly along her skin as it makes her feel better, so I did that, and then after about an hour talking, I gave her a massage for about another 40 minutes.

So, about 2 hours of UA, Affection and Conversation deposits, both of which are huge for her AND -

She at one point said she was thinking about the whole just because we sleep in the same bed doesnt mean she has to change anything, and therefore maybe it would be ok. I told her, honestly, its what she is comfortable with.

I have to earn trust back, so I dont want to push things for her or anything. I have done enough telling her what she needs for the last 5 years. I need to let her be herself and decide for herself what she wants. I can make myself something very nice to keep around, but thats about it.

So far, so good.

Thanks again for all of you guys and your support. I know I am using this thread for a kind of "repository" to write stuff with many double triple or more posts. Thank you to you that leave advice and encouragement and all the rest that share this with me since I see the "read" count going up all the time.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: My thread - 05/12/10 02:20 AM
Thanks for the update, BT, hang in there!
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: My thread - 05/12/10 03:40 PM
BT, just finished reading your thread after you posted on mine. Our situations have a remarkable amount of similarities, with the primary (unfortunate) difference being that my wife asked me to move out six weeks ago. We have three kids (5, 2 and 1), and we do spend some time together during the week, but I get virtually no UA time with her, so no chance to fill her LB or meet her ENs, and, as you saw, she is the one that brought me to this site so nothing I do flies below the radar.

I really appreciated Mark's post, and have read others from him over the past weeks. Once again, my struggle is what to do when my wife has all but given up, and we are living apart.

Combined with that, I was intrigued by Mark's statement that and EA exists if your spouse is getting EN's met elsewhere at all. Is that the case, Mark, or anyone for that matter, if numerous people as an amalgam, are combining to meet a person's ENs instead of their spouse?

Anyway, what I can tell you BT is that you've found the right place, and are getting great advice. Please keep your nose to the grindstone.

On that note, I do think you should be cautious about "traditional" MC. Dr. Harley has written on this at length, ( I can't find a link now, but will keep looking) and has said to be wary of a counselor who may want to delve too much into family backgrounds etc. It can turn into lots of sessions (and $$$) which may not get to the real issues.

I spent the money for an hour with Steve Harley, and it was worth more than the time my wife and I spent with our "traditional" MC who couldn't wrap her head around MB concepts.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 05/12/10 07:40 PM
[Linked Image from cool-smileys.com]

HBS,

I think that any person who allows many people to meet their ENs is a walking affair waiting for the biggest deposits to be made into his or her love bank.

Since most people don't think of an affair except in terms of physical adultery, until they reach the point where they are at least considering that, they would in most cases deny an affair is actually happening. So people begin to use the "we're just friends" line and even convince themselves that nothing inappropriate is going on.

The problem with this results from the fact that if someone makes us happy consistently whenever we are with them, eventually the person themselves become a directed stimulus that causes us to have a directed response and that directed response is that we begin to feel those happy feelings whenever we even think about that person. This is what we call falling in love and is how Dr Harley says we fall in love with someone. This is the Love Bank model in its most basic form, if we are happy whenever we are with someone, and they never do anything to make us unhappy, then before long we are happy just being with them.

In reality, we become addicted to the feelings provided for us by that person. They provide the stimulus that causes us to have a pleasurable experience often enough that we begin to equate the pleasure with the person rather than the stimulus they provide. At that point, we feel all the symptoms of withdrawal whenever we do not get to be with that person including sadness, depression, irritability, fear of loss and all the rest that make breaking an addiction so difficult for most.

Also be aware that what begins as a group of people hanging out, going out drinking/dancing/socializing (even attending technical seminars and such) can place two people together into a setting where their ability to spend time with each other is not called into question, since a group is present. This does not diminish the risk of an EA and can actually make it more likely by allowing justification for the contact to continue long after it might otherwise be considered acceptable.

Many affairs begin with a group of people hanging out together in a bar after work. The whole group is always present and maybe even the whole group starts with what they consider good-natured flirting and teasing. Especially if the group includes single who begin to pair off at some point, a couple can carry on an affair for a long time without anyone even noticing that they have begun to spend extra time together or that they linger longer in their glances at one another etc.

Just because a group is involved does not preclude two members of the group from falling in love with each other even if the only contact is within context of the group as a whole.

And the real trouble comes from the fact that seldom do even the affair partners recognize that they are allowing themselves to fall in love with each other until one night when they get to be alone and the sparks seem to fly and they don;t know how they got there. People have affairs because they don't do anything to prevent having one. It is poor boundaries, plain and simple.

Mark [/tj]

Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: My thread - 05/12/10 10:14 PM
Mark, I always appreciate your insights, and this most recent one has helped me make a bit of a paradigm shift in my thinking.

I don't believe my wife is having a PA, but she's not denied the existence/possibility of an EA. We live lives that would make such an EA with one man unlikely, but a "community" EA with friends, co-workers, members of her various business groups is certainly an option. I'd never thought if it that way, but the way you describe it, it seems no less dangerous, especially given our current situation.

I don't want to hijack BT's thread, but any advice you can give me on my current situation would be welcomed. (my thread here) http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2355419#Post2355419

Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/13/10 02:34 AM
Welcome to "my" thread, no worries, love hearing from you guys.

Not much new today, odd work day, in at 7:30, home by 10am, then had to leave at 3pm till 7:30pm. Still got to help entertain our boy and since she had a migraine still today, that is always nice to be able to do for her.

Helped her with some resume service questions to help her find a job. She has become much more motivated about getting a job since she decided she wanted to leave, but even if she stays, I do believe she needs to have something besides just sitting in this house with our son, waiting for me to come home. I dont think it has to be a job, it could be 2 days a week volunteering, or yoga sessions or whatever, just to get her out with some other people to do something that belongs to her that she can CHOOSE to share with me rather than what she has where she is in the house and basically has nothing.

She has said that she in part wants to leave because she never "made it" on her own, we got married when she was 19, and she wants to have that. She doesnt want to be dependant on me.

I know, obviously, that in theory she doesnt have to leave me to achieve that, but she needs to learn and see that for herself I think.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/13/10 02:45 AM
Oh yeah... and the counselor we are seeing right now is free. So its not a $$$ thing at all. Its free for me anyway, my insurance doesnt even pay. Part of being prior active duty.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/16/10 03:42 AM
K, another long day of work tomorrow.

My phone broke, so havent been able to call anyone and chat.

Feeling very down, and kinda, IDK, that feeling about an hour after you have been slammed in the privates, where your stomach is sick.

Nothing REALLY bad happened today. At dinner, she made a comment about going for a walk, and how she USED to leave phone in the car but now she cant since SOMEone freaks out.

This is about a time a couple weeks ago when she went out, I thought she was just going to her appointment and coming back, so about 2 hours after I thought she would be back, I called one of her friends to have them try call her, with pictures of her laying raped and stabbed in a gutter running through my head. I realized this was unlikely, but at the time I figured better safe then sorry.

Anyway, she referenced that, so I asked, calmly, are you mad at me for that?

She said, 'Its just rediculous, I told you 3, probably more times I was going out.' This happens a lot. She says "why didnt you X?" I say I didnt know you wanted me to. She says, "I said it 4 times." I have some documented service related hearing loss, and I know I struggle to hear her at times, but I guess I just dont get it.

So, in response at the dinner table, I said "I sure hope we can work that part of communication out, because it seems to happen alot where you tell me things 3 times, and I just dont hear you."

Her, "Yeah it would be nice to have a husband that actually LISTENS to me."

I honestly have no idea why this happens. Things it COULD be:
1) She is lying and doesnt actually say things
2) She says things, I cant understand her, so I ask, and she yells at me "If I am talking to you I will make sure you hear me." So then other times, if I dont understand, I hesitate to ask if she was talking to me or herself.
3) I just dont hear her maybe?

So, 1 is unlikely. She might be exagerating where "4 times" is really once, but still, she is probably telling me. Two might be part of it. I am coming to realize that the way she makes "requests" or responds can often times be called verbal abuse, so when I am told "I will make sure you hear me" I really do hesitate to ask for clarification. This could be fixed if we can enforce some sort of rules of negotiation / communication where we both feel safe. And of course it could be 3, but that could be fixed by effective communication, which includes asking for confirmation after saying something. Not just saying "grab the cup while youre out there" and assuming the message was recieved. I know I maybe 50% of the time dont acknowledge when I heard something, so thats something I can work on.

There, this post was a success. I learned one more thing I can work on.

I feel a bit better now.

God it hurts so bad when she makes comments about the "coming divorce" and splitting up our possessions, or not caring where something is set up in the house since "I wont be here soon anyway."

Ouch...

Another MC appointment on Tues.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/18/10 12:03 AM
I cant seem to think a thought that isnt loaded with DJs:

My wife doesnt want to try.

She is trying to hurt me.

She makes no effort to be pleasant.

She purposefully does AO's to hurt me.

She says "I dont want to talk in front of our son, because we will just argue and fight" so that she can justify not resolving issues.

She makes comments like, "I guess it doesnt matter where you put it to me since I wont be here soon enough anyway."

She says, when I asked, that she doesnt do things to hurt me on purpose, and is in fact lying.

She is a selfish person who doesnt think of anyone but herself in the decisions she makes.

She doesnt care about how what she is doing hurts our son.

She is unwilling to take personal responsibility for her actions, her happiness, and her future. She wants everything bad the last few years to be my fault, and when she leaves me it will all be better.

She doesnt want to see MB / MC type stuff I find in research because it shows her how selfish she is being and makes her feel bad.

She doesnt like me being nice or helping because it makes her feel bad for being so mean and spiteful with her acidic hurtful comments.

She doesnt want to learn to resolve conflicts in a way that leaves us both happy, because then she will be "proved wrong" in her decision to leave.

She is only keeping this decision because than she "proves" to everyone how capable and independant she is, when in reality, the ONLY PERSON in her life that doubts her capabilities is herself.






OK... I dont really believe all these things. They are hurtful things I would say in an AO. I know there is truth buried in the DJs, but I havent figured out how to pick it out and present it in a respectful complaint, that abides by the principles of POJA. Basically, I dont know how to say that your actions hurt me, lets figure out a better way we can both enjoy.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/18/10 04:40 AM
(reposted this in a new thread, since I may need it moved to another section, not sure yet)

Ok, so I went through cell phone records tonight. My phone is broke, so was checking on their site for info, and figured I check out usage since I was there.

Here is a break down of my Ws usage. There is the OM, and a few other people for comparison. This OM is a guy I work with, we lived with him for about 4-5 months and is considered a friend, he is 50 something years old.

May 4rd to today:
901 mins / 15hrs with OM
24 mins with her mom
129 mins with everyone else

Apr 4rd to May 3rd:
3534 mins / 58.9hrs with OM


Mar 4th to Apr 3rd:
1133 mins / 18.8 hrs with OM
61 mins with her Mom
149 with me


Feb 4th to Mar 3rd:
6 mins with OM (we lived in same place as him through this month)
140 mins with me
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/18/10 04:34 PM
I am glad you moved your thread BT.

Is this OM married too?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/18/10 05:06 PM
Ok, finished with the non-MB MC appointment today. Next appointment is on Friday.

Our MC pointed out that we have been doing a "1 up, 1 down" relationship, and that its not healthy for either of us. For me, I am currently acting in the "down" and he suggests I not do that, and for her, being abusive and angry, that being 1 up, is not healthy for her either, and we should both stop, not just for our marraige but for any future relationships.

Basically, hes saying "giver and taker doesnt work, you need POJA" but not using those terms, and didnt actually give a plan.

I am kinda disappointed. I agree that I need to not be a doormat, but he basically said "dont stand for it." Well, just saying "F* you Im not gonna take that" we arent building a relationship. I would have hoped for not just the "dont settle for anything, dont allow one of you to gain at the others expense" but also a "heres how to do it." Thats where I think Harley's are probably much better, because they focus on action and plans. Explaining that one of us giving in to the other isnt a good way to solve problems can take about 5 mins. Explaining and holding us accountable for how to STOP doing it is what I would pay for.

I recognize that we cant "give away the farm" but we STILL dont have any real help in how to talk to eachother without both trying to take something.

I am trying. It is very very difficult because I feel like if I stop pulling, she jerks me over because she doesnt stop pulling.

Things like "Im sick of you, Im leaving for a few hours," and then leaves me here, with our son. I love taking care of him, but I am not ok with her assuming she can just do whatever she wants and I will be here.

I told her after counseling about the minutes on the phone. I told her I dont appreciate it and am hurt by it since it shows that before she ever told me she was leaving, before ever trying to talk to ME, she went and talked to someone else. No matter what it was about or who it was with, I told her I dont have any problems with her having friends, I have problems with her not talking to me.

She says she doesnt care she wants to leave.

Ok, I guess fine... I cant make her stay.

But I wont be a doormat. I will not fight with her. I will not do AOs, and I will try avoid DJs, IB, SDs, and I will be honest. I give her all the notes I take about stuff and whatever.

I am not done. I want to be married to her, I want us to be happy, and for our son to be happy, and for me to be happy. I recognize now that that is impossible if I try to do everything to please her. I should have seen it earlier, you guys have told me, but I am slow. I see it now. She was the Giver for years, and I was Taker, now the rolls have been reversed, but I recognize that me Giving isnt going to satisfy her or me.

I just dont know what to do different now.

She was kinda upset at the MC today. I am curious about if maybe she would be more open to an SH call. I have no idea how to bring it up. She doesnt even want to be around me right now.

I am also very upset that she talks about our house, our money, our son, but its her car, and her phone, and her time. Even if she doesnt WANT me to be the one fulfilling her Financial Security, she is allowing me to do it. She likes being able to leave our son with me and count on me for Family Commitment, so she can take "her car" and go out and have fun and ignore us and her problems and meet her needs with other people, but as soon as I want to talk or work something out, oh doesnt have the time for us.



Some excerpts:

M: I went through the phone usage, and discovered you spent over 50 hours last month on the phone with Tim. I feel hurt and betrayed by this.

W: Why?

M: Because it has been going since before you said there were problems, so I interpret it as you deciding to, instead of talk to ME and work on US, ignoring it, go talk to a friend and let them make you smile.

W: You cant make me feel bad for having friends. Just cuz I found someone who would make me smile when you made me cry, told me thank you when you didnt, or made jokes when I was sad doesnt mean I did anything wrong. Hes just a friend. What right do you have to tell me I dont get to have friends.

M: I dont have a problem with you having friends. I have a problem with you ignoring us in favor of friends.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/18/10 05:10 PM
Apparently, she called OM shortly after she left.

He just came over to talk. Basically, he wanted to reassure me they were just friends. They talk, they share experiences, just friends.

I said its fine. That to me it wouldnt matter if it was him or one of the other females we lived with. To me, the reason I told her I was upset about it was because she chose to not talk to me, to not work things out with me, and instead tried to be happy somewhere else.

Basically ended on, well, ok then. He said he doesnt want to be in the middle, but he tries, when she's saying things sometimes to, to try show her where she is maybe going about it wrong.

IDK.

I guess I read here that opposite sex friends are no-go. I am sure they are right, but I ahvent learned it and really assimilated it yet. I guess its more that to me, an EA is just as bad as a PA, and so therefore, the EA can be had with anything that you choose to place at a higher level of importance than your spouse and marraige.

I consider my video game problem to have been an EA, just as bad as her and her OM Friend. Neither is ok, but its not "not ok" BECAUSE he is a guy, its not OK because its an EA.

I dont know if that makes sense.

I need help I guess.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/18/10 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I am glad you moved your thread BT.

Is this OM married too?


He has been married I think 23 years (?) and is about to go through a divorce as well. I have only heard his side through what my W tells me, but she sounds kinda nuts. Of course I am sure there are 2 sides, so I dont really judge.

I hope that answers it.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/18/10 05:35 PM
BT i am sorry to tell you but waywards will lie, lie, and lie some more.

I believe that your wife is at least in an emotional affair with this man and if i were you i would expose all of this contact to the OMs wife and she if she KNOWS about all the texts they have and the time they are spending talking to one another.

If they are just friends then you would have known about them texting each other all along and would not have had to snoop to find it out.

Also ask your wife to let you see the texts, if they are truly just friends and it is all innocent then there should not be a problem with you reading them (i bet she will say something about you dipping into her privacy or something along those lines).

Please read all you can on this site about affairs and Plan A and Plan B and EN's and everything and keep posting.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/18/10 05:38 PM
Also now that you have "told them" so to speak of your thoughts, they will probably go into hiding and make you look like a crazy man.

Do not worry it is pretty much the satndard script for a wayward.
Posted By: Scotland Re: My thread - 05/18/10 06:14 PM
BT-What your WW and OM are doing is called gaslighting. I also talked to OW and she assured me that they were "just friends." I installed a keylogger and found out much differently. It is normal for OP to try to talk BS out of exposing them. EXPOSE. DO NOT WARN ABOUT IT, JUST DO IT.
Posted By: Mulan Re: My thread - 05/18/10 06:24 PM
Quote
He just came over to talk. Basically, he wanted to reassure me they were just friends. They talk, they share experiences, just friends.

I said its fine. That to me it wouldnt matter if it was him or one of the other females we lived with.

Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor.

BT, let me ask you a question. And I'm serious.

Why did you marry a female? Why not marry a male? Why did it matter?

Please answer - this is neither a joke nor sarcasm.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/18/10 07:31 PM
Quote
I said its fine, that to me it wouldnt matter if it was him or one of the females we had lived with.

I kinda paraphrased frmo what I told him. To clarify, I said, I dont care if she has friends. The way she ignored me and talked to anyone other than me, and relied on anyone other than me to meet her needs, rather than INFORM ME of our problems and attempt to work them out is why I feel betrayed and upset. Its not that hes a man.

As far as I am concerned, its cheating already, because she values someone else more than me. The physical act is just a bland, mediocre icing on an already ruined cake.

I dont know, maybe I am messed up and just havent had anyone have a PA on me and therefore have no idea how much worse it could be.

I dont know, at this point it feels like its already an Affair, regardless of physical or not. I am already hurt. Its like having your leg amputated at the knee or the thigh. Either way you dont have a leg, so its not really relevant.


Why I married a woman and not a male: I need SF from a female. A male wouldnt do it for me. God made her part specifically for making mine feel great, and God does some pratty darn good work.
Posted By: Mulan Re: My thread - 05/18/10 07:46 PM
BT: Okay, so you do know the difference between males and females. Do you think the OM does not? Do you believe he thinks your wife is a male and so he will just treat her like one of the guys and you don't have to worry about them having sex?

Do you realize that "She's Just One of the Guys" is something that BWs hear *all the time*??

You are bending your brain into a king-sized pretzel trying to convince yourself that an EA isn't sexual. BT, an EA is just PRE-sexual. It's not a "friendship" because if it was, there would be no reason to hide it from you or exclude you from it.

And yes this IS relevant because the early stages of an EA are like warning sirens that should make any BS get off their backside and Do Something about it (like expose).

Sitting back and trying to convince yourself that it's okay, OM is just treating MY WIFE like she's one of the guys is just going to cause you nothing but agony while he moves in and takes over because he knows you will do nothing.

And if the b*st*ard ever comes to your house again - !!!!

She IS in an affair and the only one who has a chance of stopping it is you.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/18/10 07:49 PM
She did try to say something about going through her phone record and violating privacy.

I said its not private, and if you arent doing anything wrong, what is there to be defensive or upset about?

She got real thoughtful, and seemed convinced and said, hmm, ok I guess.

Its things like this that make me pretty sure it is an EA, and she naively just doesnt understand what it could turn into. That she really believes they are "just friends," and hell, the OM very well might too, but they are down the road already and could so easily wake up and say, "what have we done?"

I dont understand this gas lighting thing. Sorry.

I have read all of Infidelity, it was the last section of the site for me, so have read all of the Basic Concepts and QnA articles. I have read and still have HNHN and check parts of that.

I dont know what to do.

Plan A involves meeting the needs and showing how much "better" home is while setting boundaries. She already was and is so far in withdrawal that I am barely allowed to meet needs.

Plan B is removing yourself so that the cut is felt. I dont know if it would be felt, again, as she is so far in withdrawal that she might not care what I felt.

We talked today after she came back home.

We spoke of communication and disrespect. I explained that when she says I could never make her happy, she is saying I am unable to be good enough. It is not possible. She is also saying that I am responsible for our divorce, since she cant help that I am incapable of not being good enough.

However, when she says, as she occasionally has, I MIGHT be able to change, but she doesnt want to wait around, or that she doesnt trust it to be "real" and lasting, then that is different, in that she is owning her part of the decision and not making a disrespectful judgement on what I am capable of.

She said she would have to think about that.

She also had stated that she was sexually frustrated for years, but I didnt know this until a couple weeks ago. I occasionally thought maybe there was an issue, and had asked her if we were good and everything was ok, and she always said, yes we are great, until 2 weeks ago. We talked about this again today and a few other similar things. We talked about how easy it would have been when these things were new problems for them to have resolved and we both agreed that it would have been better if we had settled them before.

I said our marraige is like a beautiful flower, that we have been allowing these little pieces of trash to land on it, until now we just have a big pile of trash that seems too big to move. But every time we get close to it, and pick out one piece of trash, we both recognize how "silly" it is and how easy it could be to resolve it.

She was giving positive reactions and participating and owning this whole last paragraph right up to the end, when I said something about how "you say you dont trust me right now because of the past, the history, well in the same vein, every issue we have stopped to look at has been something that we could easily resolve, which makes me doubt that there really is anything in the whole trash pile we couldnt fix if we just took it piece by piece."

She didnt shut off or anything, she just got that thoughtful look again.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/18/10 08:13 PM
BT,

I am so sorry you are here. I hate to be the first to tell you, but I don't think she is taking those evening drives to a meadow, or the beach or whatever it is alone.

I am sorry but it is almost certain she and the OM are having sex and that is why she doesnt want to with you. It is also why she doesn't want you doing her laundry I am afraid...

He "says" he is getting a divorce huh? I wonder if his wife knows. Your wife is caught up in the fantasy of dumping you, he gets a divorce, and they move in together with your kids.

anything and everything she says now is to manipulate you to help her achieve that outcome. The "gaslighting" is the lying and manipulation they are both involved in.

Save your evidence in a safe place. Come up with a plan to expose this affair to anyone and everyone, particularly those who could have an influence on your WW.

The OM's wife is the first target. It may be interesting to hear her take on it as she may be unaware that he was cheating at all and didn't know about a Divorce at all.

Exposure is like shining the light of truth on an ugly secret and is the only real effective way to bust up the affair. Until she is cleared from her addiction to the OM she will not let you meet any emotional needs, she will spew wayward crap and have no interest whatsoever in reconciling with you. Exposure is not something you threaten, she will pre-emptively spin you into a lunatic that is a control freak. You do it nuclear style to everyone all at once. More will come on here to give you tips.

It sounds to me like the timeframe you lived with these people was not as stressful for her as she says, because it was during this time she probably fell in love with him and they started the affair.

SWW
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/18/10 08:17 PM
Oh,

And I wouldn't put any stock in those "thoughful looks" or her willingness to let you look through her phone or whatever.

She is a falling down lying wayward drunk that will do anything to meet up with him no matter what.

If that means showing the occasional sign that she is "thinking about" working on the marriage but needs some "alone time" to think...that means she is going off to hook up with the OM and is manipulating you into thinking if you only just back off she will come around on her own and start to wake up. Not gonna happen.

Most of us have been in your shoes and know the panic you are in right now. It was the worst thing that has ever happened to me in my life and I think many would echo that sentiment.

We are all here for you.

SWW
Posted By: Mulan Re: My thread - 05/18/10 08:17 PM
MB thread explaining gaslighting:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=146375&Number=1954184#Post1954184

BT, your WW and her OM are *both* gaslighting you. I hope you will take a look at this thread.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/19/10 03:34 AM
Read the thread. Cant click the links, says "Link Not Found" or some such internet error, sorry.

Ok, so I still cannot really believe they are having a PA. I will keep teasing the idea, but regardless, as I said, the 60hrs in 1 month on the phone with someone before you have even told your husband there was a serious problem and you were seeking a divorce is at the least an EA.

Exposure is the next thing. I have told 1 of my closest personal friends about all this, and they were floored at the time spent on the phone. Not just with the OM, but how LITTLE was spent with anyone else. I am sure the same reaction would happen to anyone I showed this too.

I want to show this to 4 people.

Her dad, her mom, her brother, and her best friend from back in CA.

Maybe more, like her uncle and stuff, IDK. IDK how far to take it.

I dont want to accuse W of a PA, because I have no evidence. I also dont think I need to, since every sane person will say the evidence I have already of the EA is bad enough.

I dont know what I really expect from these people. For them to tell her she is wrong? Is that it? What do I tell them? Do I tell them she is having an EA and show the evidence? Do I also tell them she has stated she will not try to make our M work? Do I tell them she has said she will only go to counseling so she can say she did it, that she picked out a house for us in the place she wanted and waited till about 5 days after we closed to say she was going to seek a divorce? Do I tell them about her verbal abuse? Do I tell them how I neglected her?

I DONT want to force our problems on other people, but I also feel that if we lived anywhere else, either near her friends or mine, that this would be a much more different situation. The phone records show how little she talks to anyone BUT the OM, including her old friends and family.

I really dont think most of them even know she is planning to get a divorce. I think she is able to perpetuate her fantasy because there is no one around to tell her to wake up.

She has said things like last time we went to my home on vacation that even my friends noticed what a POS husband and father I was. I feel I havent been a very good husband, but I have been asking my family and friends, and NONE of them have said they ever thought I wasnt a great husband or father. Maybe incidences where they thought I was rude or thoughtless, but over all, very good. I think if we were living near and interacting often with her friends or mine or our familys', we would have people to say, "look, you need to appreciate what you have, take responsibility for your actions, and stop being such a child."

So I guess I am looking for thoughts on that.

Oh, and do I do letter or email or doesnt matter? And do I send the "proof" in our phone records or what would you suggest there?
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/19/10 11:43 AM
I would tell them that at the very least she is deeply involved in an emotional affair and it is destroying your marriage. Tell them you have evidence if they don't believe you, but that you are trying to save your marriage and ask for their help. Short and sweet.

Expose to anyone that can have an influnce on her and him. That definitely means OM's wife.

BT I hope i am wrong, but i just can't see your WW disappearing all the time at night to go for these drives alone and not hooking up with the OM.

Add the fact that she wants to divorce and it's all your fault etc. etc. and the thought of sex with you is repugnant really makes me think things are farther along. You do need to keep snooping for more evidence though as well.


Read up on what Dr. Harley says about exposure, how it's done and why it is necessary.

SWW
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/20/10 02:18 AM
Ok, so, the initial conversation about the phone record, right after our MC oppointment, didnt go so well, but it ended good (IMO). After that, I went to work, got home at midnight, passed out on couch exhausted with contacts in, right eye is all pink and hurting, just got off work (7am - 9pm) but I get tomorrow off. Friday is another MC appointment.

Today, I didnt really get to talk to her much, but I called her at lunch, said hi, how are things, everythings ok? I do want to know that everything is ok, but I also am demonstrating that I think about her and she and our son are important to me.

She folded my clothes and made dinner for me so I am eating that now. I called her on the way home, since it was a lil before her bed time, and thanked her for the things she does and told her how nice it is to have her help.

Next week, Mon - Friday, I am on a trip litterally across the country. I am in NC, traveling to WA. When I get back, she is going on a camping trip with her cousin.

One thing that is good about this OM being someone I work with, there are many times I can be certain that nothing is going on in that instant, since well, he is at work with me. He is going to a training school during the same week I will be gone. It doesnt stop the phone calls I guess.

W also told me the other day, she met "someone" at a park she took our son too. She told me because she said one night "you have to clean up dinner because I wont be here." Why? "Im going to meet a friend I met at the park yesterday."

She wouldnt tell me even if it was a boy or girl. However, she got a call around than, and thats one of the reasons I thought of checking the phone log while I was on the site anyway, to maybe see if there was a new number on there.

There wasnt, just 4-5 calls to the current OM around the time before and after she left. Then, yesterday, she let slip that the new friend was a guy (said "he" in reference to the friend, despite her being obviously careful of pronoun use since she first told me, obvioualy a slip eventually was inevitable). Anyway, I am not even sure there IS a "new" friend, since right before she left is a couple incoming calls from the current OM, and then a couple longer calls while she was gone.

Why call OM when you are hanging out with a "new friend."

So, no concrete proof of dishonesty yet, but it makes me wonder.

I do not want to catch her in a lie. I want us to be happy and married. However, if she is lying to me, I would REALLY like to catch her once, since I can then expose that.

SWW, thank you for your last post especially about what to "expose." I dont really have anything right besides the phone records and my "side" of the story, and I dont want to do anything like try to skew it just to make her look bad.

I want to expose everything to people, even including the fact that I havent been perfect. I would like to emphasize that I WANT to make things better. I dont want her friends to tell her anything that they dont honestly believe. If her mother thinks she should leave me, than I want her mother to tell her that.

I may not be right. Even if I AM "right," that doesnt mean anyone has to do what I say or anything. W keeps saying "you arent going to change my mind." I keep telling her I dont WANT to change her mind. I CANT change her mind. Only she can. She has said, in many different ways, that she has felt forced to do many things in whatever fashion, like I have prevented her from being happy.

I would LOVE for her to realize that her happiness is HER responsibility, whether anyone else works to support it or not, and that NO ONE will MAKE her happy. Whether she stays with me or goes elsewhere, it is something she will have to learn if she wants anything better. I want to be a wonderful husband that provides a safe haven of love, that meets her needs and that she can trust, but even if I do all those things, it wont make her happy unless she chooses to be happy.
Posted By: MaiMai Re: My thread - 05/20/10 01:32 PM
BT...you are in serious denial.

When you leave for your trip, OM will be keeping your side of the bed warm for you.

Get yourself a VAR and put it under the bed. Or a hidden camera if you've got the stomach.

God, this hurts to watch.
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/20/10 02:05 PM
BT-

Really glad the conversation ended well, especially when it didn't start well. If you think about it, that is some progress. We all know how to do start poor, end poor. We all got that one down.

I was thinking about the OM issue you have. People are different even though we may all have some of the same needs and feelings that drive some of the same behavior.

I get the exposure part for PAs. I don't really agree with the length to which some take it but that is there decision. On EAs I think it is a finer line to walk. We all get our needs met by every interaction we have, even posts on forums like this. My H has taken things to a level where I am not in a PA, or an EA with any OM, but now it is that I am getting my needs met by the combind group of all people in my life. And yes, that is true when you think needs are just that, needs. But I think too that rushing to an exposure can do more damage than good when it is less clear.

I do however agree that it is not good long term for her to have this OM or NF as a primary person meeting her ENs when they are males. Exposure of an EA is a way of not stepping up your attempts at meeting her ENs but a way of trying to force her out of her way. If she is new to her EA, she won't even agree with you that she is having an EA, and it could push her closer to either OM or NF. Gives them all something to talk about, and agree with, bond on, that she an EA is not happening.

I think her EA is very early so think before you jump to exposure. Maybe for a short time period try more of you instead.

So your W has the need to talk and she is getting that from OM and maybe "new friend". You are talking to her and that is great. I don't know if it be helpful if you increased the amount of the time you talk...about anything...aslong as you are talking to her. She can't be talking to OM or "new friend" (NF).

I also like that you agree that you can't change her mind and you tell her. It sounds like she saysthis often so this is a key to her thinking and when we repeat things, it is because they are important. When we listen to what othes say, we hear the unspoken.

She may be saying those things because she wants to be heard, and you do that by hearing her and confirming what you heard with honesty. I also like that you follow up with your honest feelings no matter how vulnerable that makes you. Keep it about you. You don't want to change her mind, you want to change yourself and your home life and how you interact with others. And yes, you'd love if after doing so, she decided then that you could be a H she would want to be with.

Maybe make it about making a decision (enpower her) and not changing her mind (she was wrong). Because maybe for her, she needs to know that if she decided to come back, and she "changed her mind", she didn't change her mind about how things were and that they were crappy for her (and I am sure for you but we are talking about her). And you aren't asking her to change her mind about how she views those times because those times are past.

Also was thinking, I know MB says 15 hours of UA without kids. I had read other posts saying your time with W and child is not UA. But when she won't give you that, I believe positive time is better than no time. If she is spending time with you, she can't spend it with OM or NF. A child can and is that tie that binds. And no one loses if you can sopend time with F by spending it together as a family. Maybe think of some fun things to do with son and W that you can suggest, away, out of the home. I don't think doing it with anyone else would be helpful, but she will get something from every interaction with you even if it is for right now as a family.

Be there. Be open and honest with her. If you can't get UA, get some time. Be consistent and predictable. Respect that what she feels is what she feels, even if it is just right now.

It's a hard road but you walk with a purpose and it is clear.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/20/10 04:39 PM
BT i do not mean to sound nasty, but please read Chrisner's Guys Come On thread.....

I really think you need to heed the advice you have received about snooping further and exposure.

I agree with MaiMai that you are in denial and that your wife is in this way further than you think.

Please do not stand back and just let it happen.
Posted By: saynomore Re: My thread - 05/20/10 04:57 PM
Way to enable the enabler, LorG!

God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/20/10 08:12 PM
Well, I dont know guys. I am of 2 minds.

If LorG is right, and its just friends, and I go nuts on exposure and accuse her of all kinds of things to her family and friends, I agree it would push her away. She already calls me controlling.

But if you guys are right and she is hoodwinking me, then exposure is a must.

No one will be warming my side of the bed, since it hasnt been my bed since mid-April, but I get the point. I really cant believe a PA is going on, especially that it could go on in my house, but you know what, maybe.

I think a lot of people on here have been hurt really bad, but that deosnt mean I should discount the advice.

I think I will get th VAR and put it in her room.

I have been thinking a lot.

I was the crying, clingy, please stay, emotional basket case, always bringing up the relationship for about a month. Then I was what she calls the "hovering puppy" until the present. She says I try to do things to "make her happy," and she doesnt like it, but when she tells me to stop I get "all butthurt."

Thinking about it, and what our MC said, I think I ahve realized something. My W makes me happy. Doing things for her makes me happy. Our marraige didnt always make me happy, but I didnt know what to do, and now that I have a source of info, I know it COULD make us both very happy. However, a positive thing that is going to come out of this no matter what is, I dont need to be hurt by the things she does. That is something that I give her.

Our MC told us we should stop working on the marraige and work on ourselves first. That we were trapped having one person getting what they want, and the other not. That we should focus on being "self-actualizing."

Pissed me off. I agree that he is right about us working on ourselves, but I DO believe we could do that together.

Regardless, I do need to not be the groveling guy, since its usually just the way I try to manipulate someone into doing what I want (get her to stay.)

Reading Neaks and NPs threads showed me what a good Plan A should look like.

I would like to make a Plan A. I have friends from back home moving down here (in the USMC now so he getting stationed here) so that will help with support. They know now what is going on. I felt I had to tell them at least since they were going to stay with us for a few days.

A huge thing is that in the military, we moved all the time, so W has no friends in the area besides OM. Even her old Cali friends all have kids and stuff and dont have much time. Her Dad not having a phone last 4 months has left her really with no one to talk to. She has been allowed to think of all these things and not really bounce them off anyone.

So.

This weekend, before I leave I will get a VAR and put it under the bed. Maybe a second to put in the couch. That will cover my snooping. Since OM is the only real danger, he doesnt have an email or a computer, and they freely talk on phone / visit in person. Even if they arent doing anything physical, it could confirm that.

Next week, while I am gone, I want to spend a lot of time on here. I want to really develop a Plan A, start a Plan B (just in case), and prepare and Exposure Letter. Even if its "just" an EA where they arent doing anything, I know she has not really told anyone anything, except a short conversation with her dad where she told him she was leaving.

He told her she should work on it. She said she has, and shes done. He just said, well it sounds like you thought about it, so I dont know.

Other than that, it doesnt seem like she has told any of her friends or family. She has made comments to me about how "once everyone finds out" she is upset that they are probably gonna think she is crazy since I "seem like such a great guy" and how its going to "suck for" her that none of them really know how terrible I am. I think she knows that most of her friends and family, even if she can convince them that I am horrible, are going to ask "well have you told him?" "Is he willing to work on it?" "well then you need to give it a try for your sons sake." and she doesnt want that.

So thats it, I dont know if that is a "good reason" to spray our "personal business" to our family and friends, or if I am just selfishly throwing a fit since I am not getting what I want.

I told her I dont "do divorce" and that I still want to work on this marraige and on me. She says she doesnt care, she is done.

So I wonder if I can write an "exposure letter" to friends and family just basically says something about:

We are having problems, and in Fall 09, agreed to work on them once we "got settled in."
W has suddenly, unilaterally, decided to leave in the near future, stating no chance of working on anything.
I still want to try, and have been.

I want it to read in a manner that shows that I am taking full responsibility for my failings, that I dont think she is being a bad person, that I think she is hurt and protecting herself as best she can, and that I am willing to do nearly anything to make this work.

The goal would be to convey the gist of whats going on, and allow her friends and family a chance to say what they want to her.

I dont know, what do you guys think? Obviously if the VARs reveal a full blown PA, then its a whole new game, but if its "just" a naive EA, IDK, thoughts?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/20/10 08:34 PM
@ StillCrazy - thank you so much for that recommendation.

It is something I have been toying with.

Ok, I still dont know of a PA, and not much evidence (to me) says there IS one. I read in Neaks thread "I realized I didnt need the proof, I just needed to know."

Well, I dont know. I know I wont need enough proof for a court, but I really dont know yet about a PA.

But I am going to fight for our marraige.

I fear starting my fight, and confirming any thought that I am the controlling domineering husband that never let her do anything, that she has described me as.

In reality, she has basically aquiesced to anything I wanted without complaining since we have been married. On my part, I didnt really pay attention enough to note the signs that she wasnt happy with decisions, and I didnt seek POJA. I didnt even know what POJA was. So now she is at a point where she says "I dont need to do what you want, I can make myself happy," total 180. I think the 180 came because she thinks it will be easier to just give up on us, blame me, and not have to take responsibility for her side of the fence.

I want to fight, for her, us, and our son, but in a way that allows her to come back.

I dont know what to do.

My previous post includes the beginnings of a "plan." How do they look for now?

It is very hard to find time on here when I am watchign the kid so she can go out for the day with OM.

Here are my balls.

Man I have messed so much up...
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 05/20/10 11:00 PM
OK, BT, I'm looking for the plan here and frankly I don;t see it. I see some attempts to discuss a plan and a bit about which kinds of plans you might try, but you need a PLAN that gives you things that you will do and things that you will work at and goals to set and a time line for how long you will continue.

You snooping plan might be a real step in finding out the truth, but remember that even "just" an EA can devastate a marriage. That is true even for one that in which the affairees have stated their love for each other, declared the relationship to be off limits as long as either is married and committed to not crossing some imaginary "line" that they themselves have defined, which usually indicates having repeated sexual rendezvous. They'll discuss the current marriage and its problems, what each thinks is the ideal relationship (usually feeding each other enough baloney to feed the First Cav) and create a fantasy relationship they can share together that isn't based on anything either of them actually knows to be true.

In your snooping, be sure to listen carefully for signs of that kind of activity...

One more word about an affair in general here; it is an addiction. As such it can be identified in part by the willingness of the addict to give it up. People who are "just" friends don't need the qualifier for the word friend. "Just" implies justification and a right to maintain that friendship even at the risk of losing a marriage or other legitimate relationship.

What are her top Emotional Needs?
What can you do to specifically meet any or all of those needs?
What Love Busters do you still struggle with?
How do you plan to do away with them?

What things can you do to default into being with her enough to actually meet her ENs?
How can you show her affection and that you care for her without telling her or trying to make points?

What expectations do you struggle with that get in your way of acting directly to address her ENs and get rid of love busters from your own life?

How can you demonstrate to her that you can be the man she has longed for and has dreamed about her entire life?

What ways do you make too easy for her to walk away from you and not easy enough to work with you on restoring the marriage and making it better than it was before?

This is a PLAN, BT. You lay out objectives, goals, benchmarks, and details of how to accomplish each one. Then you begin to act instead of reacting to what she does. You fix yourself, make yourself more valuable to her than even a fantasy man of her imagination. You be the husband she wants, desires and needs so that she will want you, desire you and need you in her life.

Why did she fall in love with you before? BE THAT GUY NOW!

Don't talk about it. Don't think about it. Don't argue about it. Do it and be it...

Is only do or do not...

Is no try...

Is no wondering...

Is no considering...

Is no contemplation...

Is no might be or might not be...

Mark
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/21/10 01:01 AM
I just realized, a VAR wont "catch" them while I am gone, since OM is going out of town on training too. I can verify it because its for our work, and if he doesnt go, everyone will know, and its in AZ (we are in NC).

But I guess it could catch the phone convo's.

However, at this point I start to feel a little dirty. Help me out with this.

I feel like "spying" is being untrusting. Especially when I dont really think there is a PA, and this activity is mostly to confirm that there isnt one (at least in range of the VAR's...).

I feel dirty because I DO trust her still.

She has been "sucking it up" for at least 3 years. We have a family decision, she would say what she wants, I would say what I wanted, if they were different, I would try to "convince" her my way was right, and she would say "ok."

I know now that that cant work. I know now that I am not going to be that anymore.

But that doesnt matter for our son until she wakes up.

EDIT: I was typing this and screen was up when I hit "post" so I jjust read Marks post.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/21/10 02:12 AM
Love Busters:

Selfish Demands: TRY make our marraige work. To her this is a Selfish Demand, she has said many times not everything is about me. She says she has tried, even though I think she was just suffering through wearing a fake happy face and I was just too stupid to see it.

Angry Outbursts are gone, I havent had one, promised her I will not fight with her, havent fought. I stay calm and composed, even when I am reeling inside, and at worst, ask to talk about it later.

O&H - So, ... yeah, I want to put a VAR under her bed and in our couch, and I am thinking of sending Exposure letters to her friends and family all at once, without telling her. I dont know. Seems not open to me. She has specifically stated that she doesnt think its appropriate to tell people "our business." I really, at this point, dont care who knows. I think her hiding this stuff and not talking to anyone else about it is allowing her to convince herself that she is "doing this for our son" because her son deserves to see her happy, and that I can never be good enough and am incapable of change.

DJ - I cant tell if the last sentance above counts as a DJ. I know our marraige can work if we both try. She doesnt want to try, even though she does a GREAT job reading all kinds of stuff about kids and SHOULD know that divorce is really not that neat for a kid. Other than that, I am doing good with DJ's, I think.

IB: See O&H. Other than that, I let her know what I am up to, where I am at, when I will be home. Last few days she occasionally has called when she is out to tell me if she is on her way home or something. IDK why this started, guilt maybe?

She said she feels divorced already.

ENs - I meet what I can as I can. I do not want to be the doormat though. She gets mad when i do things like grab her plate for her or open the door for her. I dont know if I should keep doing them anyway or if I should stop since maybe they are Annoying Habits now or something. Its like she LOOKS for reasons to be mad at me or something.

I do plan to look up family things to take our son and her to, to make time for us. Other than that, she watches TV if we are home together, or she leaves for a while. I dont like it that she leaves, and I plan to tell her that I am not her babysitter so she can just leave whenever she wants.

Plan:

Tomorrow, MC appt.
Weekend, couple family events already planned we will both be attending. I also want to make an effort to be available for talk and try to keep it light. I dont want to bring up M stuff. However, she has started trying to talk about "who gets what" kinda stuff. IDK how to deal with that. I plan to get 2 VAR and put them in the couch and under her bed. This scares the hell out of me, since she will probably leave or try to tell me to leave, if she finds them. I guess at this point, she says she is planning to anyway, so what is there to lose, 3 or so more months of what we have now?

Next week, I am gone on my trip. While gone, I am going to write letters to our friends and family, laying it out. I am going to try to remain objective, and will post them on here. I will mail them before I get home. These letters will just be saying that she is saying she is done, how things have gone, and what I am doing, with an invite for them to get her "side."

When I come home, I will check the VARs. If they indicate anything beyond friendship, even evidence of a more serious EA, I will write a second letter, exposing THAT to everyone.

I have mentioned I have friends coming down. They will stay with us for a short amount of time, until they get a place. Should be only a couple weeks.

At that point, I know I have a place to stay if I choose to leave. But IDK if I should. What does that accomplish? I cant fill ENs if I leave. But I cant fill ENs now to a large extent since she has walled herself off. Just stopping LBs hasnt just made her warm and willing.

I feel like I am not going to be able to get through to her. Like involving her friends and family is the only chance to get her to wake up. I know she loves our son. I know she is smart and giving and loving. She seems to be purposefully ignoring anything good we have and have had, and focusing on any negatives to justify. I know at our first MC, when the MC asked "so what happened that brought you here," and she had no answer for him, no specific thing, just all the little things that we hadnt attempted to resolve, I saw how that bugged her. That she already knows she is standing on a house of cards and that it doesnt really make sense.
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/21/10 04:41 AM
BT-

I do think the VAR is a good idea. It will help you know something hopefully, one way or the other. We have IP cameras installed inside our home and did so for the oversight of our nanny (and we told each of them we had the cameras). But they are in the home, live, so either one of us can really log in anytime on each other. You can buy them with or without sound. You can log in online anywhere and watch/listen. You could always consider that.

Don't feel guilty about not trusting her. You are concerned about her actions. Do it, because you sound like you are doing it for the right reasons. If she is not having an EA and you find that out, then you can drop it again for now and focus on meeting her ENs and sending more time together.

If you find something, PA or EA, you can start the exposure, which I do agree is a good technique to end an affair should there be one.

If you don't find anything, for me, it would be hard to start an exposure campaign. If she is not having an EA, I can see that in her current state, it may look as if you are controlling again for sending out letters to her inner circle. That could have effects you may not want. If she is (but you just didn't find it that time) but still expose, then I think it could serve the same outcome as the PA situation.

Just my thought, likely not MB supported, but if you find nothing because you just did not get anything on the tape, you could send a letter, just not an exposure letter, like you mentioned in your afternoon post today.

When we got married, there were people that vowed to stand up and help us and support us. When they do not know what is going on, they can't intervene. If you do not know if she is having an EA with OM or NF, maybe it would be good to send a "help me, I love my W" letter. I like the general start to what you wrote on something like this.

These people in your life can and should know that 1) you are having problems, 2) she has indicated she wants a divorce, 3) you do not want a divorce, 4) you love her, 5) you are working on your things, and 6) you are asking for their help to talk to each of you, listen with their hearts and try and help heal the marriage.

Consider posting it before you send if you want feedback from MB.

Every action has a reaction. When we do not have all the information we need, it sure is hard to feel like you can make the right decisions.

I also wanted to add that I personally think men and women can be friendly. I think they can be friends. I know, not MB. But I do NOT think those relationships should EVER be outside of the M relationship. I do not think extended periods of time meeting to talk is healthy when it does not involve you as well (common shared events). I do think those boundaries can easily get blurred and it can easily end up in an EA or a PA. So pay attention to the issue and do take some action.

The VAR is a good start I think. You have talked to OM. Talk to OM wife (i think she also lived with you guys?) and tell her about the time your W and OM talk/text. Maybe she knows all about it and he is sitting there with his W while he is talking to your W. Maybe she has seen the texts. Maybe she can now help investigate and see what she can find out if she didn't know about it before. Could you go to the park and see who she is neeting when she meets NF? Can you ask a friend to do it for you? And plan for your letters based on what you learn.

Good luck. Don't feel guilty. Distrust works to protect us as long as it is within reason. You have that reason.


Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/21/10 05:08 AM
IB: Maybe she is doing this because you have been. Actions, not words, are good indicators of intent. Even if it is out of guilt, it is a good change.

EN's:
Interesting take on the doing nice things may now be an annoying habit. Here is what I understand, correct me if I am wrong. She feels you have been controlling. You likely have been in some/many areas. Where she is at right now, maybe the plate or door things reinforce the control? Sometimes control is subtle but for those who have felt controlled, it can be changed in the small things.

You think grabbing her plate or opening a door is nice and sweet. If she feels it is controlling, this is an easy power/freedom to give her. Would be easier to let her get her own doors than t let her go out with OM. It is not meant like "then get your own darn door". But if she has felt/been powerless, find neutral ways to give her some power. Instead of getting her plate, say something like "do you want to grab a plate and watch this movie"? It might sound dumb, but its not. Her common theme is on power imbalance. It is real for her.

HBS tends to get me a plate, dish it up (sometimes even adds the salt and pepper on stuff), and give it to me. For SOME women, this might make them feel special. It does not for me. I like to get my own food, in portions I prefer, and dress it with or without salt or pepper as I want to. I had shared my frustration on this several times over years. It was real for me. It took a long time for him to stop doing it and it only happens now usually on holiday meals. It is a little thing but can be a big deal.

She may be looking for reasons to be mad at you, or maybe she is just expressing herself (poorly possibly) on things that do make her mad, but she was just quiet before. Maybe you can see it this way...she's talking to you. She is telling you what makes her mad. She cares enough to tell you. That has meaning. I can tell you that. So listen, carefully. Keep your own list. Find ways to avoid those "things" if you can. They can be signals to solutions if you listen.

Just thought - your friends coming in. Did you both agree to them arriving and staying with you? Is she just saying ok but feeling controlled? Is this a topic you could use to invite conversation? If you didn't ask her before you agreed to it, ask her now. If she has issues with it, then use that to find a solution you can both agree on. Maybe they can stay in a hotel and you can help pay for it? Maybe they can stay somewhere else? Etc. If she is happy they are coming, this is a non-issue. If not, could be used for improvement.

Just thoughts.

Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/21/10 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Love Busters:

Selfish Demands: TRY make our marraige work. To her this is a Selfish Demand, she has said many times not everything is about me. She says she has tried, even though I think she was just suffering through wearing a fake happy face and I was just too stupid to see it.

Stop talking about relationship talk and making your marriage work and trying to educate her. Just be a strong confident guy that is attractive to her.

O&H - So, ... yeah, I want to put a VAR under her bed and in our couch, and I am thinking of sending Exposure letters to her friends and family all at once, without telling her. I dont know. Seems not open to me. She has specifically stated that she doesnt think its appropriate to tell people "our business." Why did you threaten to expose? You should never tell in advance, it gives her the opportunity to paint you as a lunatic. I really, at this point, dont care who knows. I think her hiding this stuff and not talking to anyone else about it is allowing her to convince herself that she is "doing this for our son" because her son deserves to see her happy, and that I can never be good enough and am incapable of change.



IB: See O&H. Other than that, I let her know what I am up to, where I am at, when I will be home. Last few days she occasionally has called when she is out to tell me if she is on her way home or something. IDK why this started, guilt maybe?

She said she feels divorced already. redflag

I am sorry but this is to justify her ACTIONS.

ENs - I meet what I can as I can. I do not want to be the doormat though. She gets mad when i do things like grab her plate for her or open the door for her. I dont know if I should keep doing them anyway or if I should stop since maybe they are Annoying Habits now or something. Its like she LOOKS for reasons to be mad at me or something.

Of course, she is having an affair predicated upon and justified by the fact that she has painted you as a creep. Read more on Plan A, it does not mean becoming her butler.

I do plan to look up family things to take our son and her to, to make time for us. Other than that, she watches TV if we are home together, or she leaves for a while. redflag redflag I dont like it that she leaves, and I plan to tell her that I am not her babysitter so she can just leave whenever she wants.

Plan:

Tomorrow, MC appt. Sorry probably worthless while she is in an active affair.Weekend, couple family events already planned we will both be attending. I also want to make an effort to be available for talk and try to keep it light. I dont want to bring up M stuff. However, she has started trying to talk about "who gets what" kinda stuff. IDK how to deal with that. I plan to get 2 VAR and put them in the couch and under her bed. This scares the hell out of me, since she will probably leave or try to tell me to leave, if she finds them. I guess at this point, she says she is planning to anyway, so what is there to lose, 3 or so more months of what we have now?

Next week, I am gone on my trip. While gone, I am going to write letters to our friends and family, laying it out. I am going to try to remain objective, and will post them on here. I will mail them before I get home. These letters will just be saying that she is saying she is done, how things have gone, and what I am doing, with an invite for them to get her "side." No, you arent asking them to get "Her side." You are exposing the affair and asking for their help in saving your marriage. The fact that she is having an affair and that it is detroying your marriage is not a subject for debate, and "her side" is irrelevant.

When I come home, I will check the VARs. If they indicate anything beyond friendship, even evidence of a more serious EA, I will write a second letter, exposing THAT to everyone.

I have mentioned I have friends coming down. They will stay with us for a short amount of time, until they get a place. Should be only a couple weeks.

At that point, I know I have a place to stay if I choose to leave. But IDK if I should. What does that accomplish? I cant fill ENs if I leave. Why in the world would YOU leave??? You aren't having an affair and destroying your marriage and family, she is! Do you want to lose your children? Because that is what will happen if you leave. It is called abandonment.But I cant fill ENs now to a large extent since she has walled herself off. Just stopping LBs hasnt just made her warm and willing.

I feel like I am not going to be able to get through to her. Like involving her friends and family is the only chance to get her to wake up. I know she loves our son. I know she is smart and giving and loving. She seems to be purposefully ignoring anything good we have and have had, and focusing on any negatives to justify. I know at our first MC, when the MC asked "so what happened that brought you here," and she had no answer for him, no specific thing, just all the little things that we hadnt attempted to resolve, I saw how that bugged her. That she already knows she is standing on a house of cards and that it doesnt really make sense.

You really need to re-read Mark's post about getting a plan. You are halfway trying to implement MB principles here but you will do more harm than good if you do them wrong. Have you read the Book Surviving an Affair? You need to. You don't really need more evidence, you have hundreds of hours of phone calls, thousands of texts and the admission by both parties that they are leaning on each other for emotional support. That my friend is what is destroying your marriage and that is what must be exposed to the entire world. If you do not get a plan, grow a spine and stand up to your WW this is not going to have a happy ending. I tell you this out of concern, not harshness or meaness. I was deployed with the military during my WW's A and exposure broke up the affair. To be honest though, i was kinda like you, too afraid to really use the stick part of plan A and i ran out of gas kissing her rear end at 8 months having never really stood up to her. Read Gerkaguards thread. He exposed to his WW's chain of command in the military in order to bust up her affair and it worked. That is the kind of spine you are going to need.

You must get a list of names to expose to, write a short note or email and post it here for comment and then start emailing an dialing everyone, and I mean everyone. You are allowing your WW to control the situation.

SWW
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/21/10 10:09 AM
BT,

Have you called the OM's wife to tell her that her husband is sleepinng with your wife yet? Have you told her he came to your house to talk about his relationship with your wife?

So your WW and her lying POSOM say he is getting divorced? Have you asked his wife about that? Please, get her educated and possibly on your side!

SWW
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/21/10 12:15 PM
BT,

Please listen to these posters. If you are uncomfortable with exposure until you have more proof then get your butt to snooping and get your proof.

I myself don't relly think you even need more proof because as others have pointed out she is already at least "emotionally" attached to this OM (and my guess is it more already too).

And it doesn't matter that "she has no one to talk to", heck you are justifying it for her she doesn't even have to do it herself. She can make some FEMALE freinds to talk to, opposite sex friends are not good for a good marriage anyway.

And what harm will come out of it anyway, big deal if she is mad, she is already mad at you and has said she is done and all the above.

And DO NOT let them know in advance that you plan on exposing and you should definitely talk to the OMW because i would pretty much bet that she has no idea they are "getting a divorce".

Please please please DO SOMETHING. Do not just stand there, the sooner the better.......

Trust me these people know what they are talking about.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/21/10 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
@ StillCrazy - thank you so much for that recommendation.

It is something I have been toying with.

Ok, I still dont know of a PA, and not much evidence (to me) says there IS one. I read in Neaks thread "I realized I didnt need the proof, I just needed to know."

Well, I dont know. I know I wont need enough proof for a court, but I really dont know yet about a PA.

But I am going to fight for our marraige.

I fear starting my fight, and confirming any thought that I am the controlling domineering husband that never let her do anything, that she has described me as.

In reality, she has basically aquiesced to anything I wanted without complaining since we have been married. On my part, I didnt really pay attention enough to note the signs that she wasnt happy with decisions, and I didnt seek POJA. I didnt even know what POJA was. So now she is at a point where she says "I dont need to do what you want, I can make myself happy," total 180. I think the 180 came because she thinks it will be easier to just give up on us, blame me, and not have to take responsibility for her side of the fence.

I want to fight, for her, us, and our son, but in a way that allows her to come back.

I dont know what to do.

My previous post includes the beginnings of a "plan." How do they look for now?

It is very hard to find time on here when I am watchign the kid so she can go out for the day with OM.

Here are my balls.

Man I have messed so much up...

Please read my previous post to you and heed the advice you are receiving. Right here you said it yourself, you are home watching your son while she is out with the POSOM.

Grow them back RIGHT NOW.........
Posted By: saynomore Re: My thread - 05/21/10 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
BT-





Just my thought, likely not MB supported, but if you find nothing because you just did not get anything on the tape, you could send a letter, just not an exposure letter, like you mentioned in your afternoon post today.


I also wanted to add that I personally think men and women can be friendly. I think they can be friends. I know, not MB. But I do NOT think those relationships should EVER be outside of the M relationship. I do not think extended periods of time meeting to talk is healthy when it does not involve you as well (common shared events). I do think those boundaries can easily get blurred and it can easily end up in an EA or a PA. So pay attention to the issue and do take some action.

LorG, I would advise that you read the information on the site, order the books and read the threads of people who have been through what BT is going through. You are not doing him any good by dispensing your opinion on a site that offers PROVEN methods for breaking up affairs and restoring Marriages in the wreckage left behind. Everything that he has done so far is enabling his WW to get more firmly entrenched in her A and believe me, there is no doubt that this is an A. Your advice is not helping him in this life destroying situation.

God's Blessings,

Say




Posted By: princessmeggy Re: My thread - 05/21/10 02:42 PM
I agree with Say.

To the OP, please note LorG's registration date. For some reason he or she is posting advice as a newbie. You would be better off listening and implementing the advice of the veterans here.

To LorG-- what's your story?
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/21/10 06:58 PM
You are right, I am a newbie. I have read a LOT on MB and affairs. I have completed the paid online course for MB.

I don't believe everything is a square peg that fits into a square hole.

I think MB can work. I think and have read that it does work. But I know there are several veterans that it did not work for and they are divorced. I think it is narrow-minded to think that there is only one way to achieve a goal.

MB is a tool. A system. A very good plan. But it is not 100% fool proof and it doesn't work exactly the same for everyone the same way.

We all have to live with ourselves and the decisions we make. Our own regrets. Each of us will go on with our lives and BT will be left with whatever course of action he chooses based on the advice on this forum. It is his marriage. His decisions.

Mine is but one voice. It is nothing more than my opinion. Take it or leave it. I also do not have a problem with anyone stating you disagree with mine.

If he feels like he needs more information, then he should go get it, fast, and make a decision.

If she is having a PA, then she is already having a PA and when he finishes the VAR in 1/2 weeks he can explode it.

If she is having an EA, he might feel better knowing what it is like before he throws accusations around. No one likes to be accused of something they are not doing. Especially if it is shared with others. And that does not build trust or communication and may not improve his chances of saving his marriage.

I think he should take action. Now. Pick something. Call the OM wife. Today. Buy the VARs. Today. Do it now. Whatever it is.

But BT is sharing his thoughts, concerns, fears and is asking for advice. I just wanted to share my thoughts. I could be wrong. I might be right. I don't know. Everything I shared is based solely on what I have read in his thread. I don't know what she would say, just what he says she says.

BT - If you would prefer that I don't post, please just let me know. I feel for you and I will keep watching your thread, as I have Gerkaguards thread, because I very much want for you to save a marriage you have clearly stated you mistreated, but now realize how much you cherish. I am ok if you want me to step aside.

Good luck.
Posted By: Revera Re: My thread - 05/21/10 07:54 PM
Just a reminder to help this poster learn Marriage Builders concepts. If you can help him in that regard, feel free to post. If not, please refrain from posting. Please take the time to familarize yourself with our mission statement at the top of each page which states "please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts."


Email me with any questions. Thank you, Revera
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/21/10 08:06 PM
**edit***
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/21/10 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
**edit**

LorG

Do you have personal experience with marital infidelity as either a wayward spouse or a betrayed spouse? Your signature does not indicate it.

These concepts like exposure are not "attack level" tactics though to the newly initiated they might seem so.

en T/J

SWW
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/22/10 03:01 AM
I guess if it is important as a factor, I would share that I have enough unanswered questions and behaviors from my spouse that I suspect he has been wayward in his past. We have discussed it. He knows I think he likely has been. He will not be surprised by my statement. I have said the same to his parents and mine. He states he has not been.

So I guess when asked like that, I would say I am a betrayed spouse. My spouse would disagree. And I don't think the title of BW in necessary for me in my process, at least at this time.

I am happy to answer questions but would really like to bring the attention back to BT's thread and what he needs. If I am a distraction, I will stop posting and just follow the thread.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/22/10 03:57 AM
Ok, couple things.

I havent seen any records of texts. I dont know how to access them or if I can from Verizon online.

She has not topped 1000 hrs by a long shot, she is sitting around 100 total right now. That said, we were living with the guy so there are all those days they spent watching TV in the living room together while I played my games in sight thinking everything was neat. Not sure what I was thinking. I am not pointing this out to defend her really, just, I see a lot of "its a PA, no doubt," then a post about her 1000s of hours and countless texts, so seems like the conclusion is being drawn based on that, and I just want to clear up the "evidence" I have right now.

Anyway, VARs this weekend before I leave.

Anyone know much about them? I have been researching them and it seems mostly what I want is a microphone of good quality. I dont know if it will be a problem that there is a TV in both her room and the living room (where couch is) that are on most of the day so will that trigger the VAR? Cuz I havent seen one made that records 80 hours straight.

Any advice on those would be neat. I also plan on asking the Best Buy and Radio Shack people, and whatever electronics places I see.

The letter, at this point I am confused.

I know what an EA is. I understand MB and why its bad. However, how do I explain it to non-MB friends and family? Do "normal" people just "get" that 60 hrs a month on the phone with someone is not cool?

To be clear, I have not warned her or even really hinted at exposure. Her comment about "not telling anyone our business" was from a month ago during a conversation about what she tells people, and she was saying she doesnt tell anyone anything for that reason.

Also, I dont know OMs wife at all. She lives in SC, we are in NC, and I dont know her name or anything. I could maybe hint at it with OM at work or something. I will have to think on how to do that. OM and OMW actually both legally reside in SC, OM just comes up here and stays during work weeks. The house belongs to a freind of mine who I know from Maine. He rents one room out to OM, and for the time we were there, rented another to us. Now OM pretty much lives there because of the problems he is having at home. I dont doubt the OM's divorce. He might be lying to everyone at work I guess, but he isnt like, telling everyone, and I am hearing about it from people that I THINK he thinks are friends but who are also my friends now.

Its weird because I want to be angry at OM, and maybe there is something wrong with me NOT being angry, but I consider it. He was living in a place, and wanted to watch TV. His wife and him arent getting along. He hangs out at his rent place where a nice cheerful lady also likes to watch TV, so they hang out and chat. They become friends, but to him its fine because they are "just" friends. He even asks me behind Ws back if its ok with me that they be friends, this was about 2 or 3 months ago, a while, before I was really awake to the dire situation I had put my marraige in.

At that point, I told him no, I dont have problems with them being friends, and I think that if W and I were good, I still wouldnt mind OM being OUR friend. He is a nice, well mannered guy who is fun to be around.

The only problem I have with OM is that W chooses to spend time with him and NOT me. If it was with US (me and OM and our son) as a family with OM tagging along, and then other time with me or me and our son, alone, than I dont think I would have a problem.

Is that wrong?

Today, MC. He told us (mostly her) that her idea that "I cant be nice to H because he takes it wrong and thinks we will be together" is bologna and that she shouldnt let me control her behavior like that. That if I am nice, she should be able to just be nice back, it doesnt help anyone, least of all her happiness, to be spiteful in response to nice gestures. He went on with the idea that "you can still be nice, even hold hands, kiss or even have sex, you are still married and that wouldnt have to change your decision. Its your decision, nothing he or you do HAS to change that." But that she also shouldnt close her mind to options since that is restraining herself from what life offers, which is also not healthy.

She is mad at him because he has said something like this at every session. I asked her why she looked upset as we left. She was reluctant at first but I was gentle and persistant and she told me she doesnt like him saying that (about holding hands and sex etc) and that he has "one more chance." If he says it again next week she doesnt want to see him again.

I told her that it isnt really a chance if she doesnt let him know her boundaries. He cant avoid a line if she doesnt draw him one. It pained me to point this out because its just another example of what she did with us, as well as in the past with some of her previous friends. She stays mad but "gives" and says nothing, until she is just done. Sad.

Anyway, she disagreed about telling him, but I plan to bring it up again. Despite the "disagreement," the conversation ended very respectfully and well. I wasnt lecturing her or pushing her. She talked for a while, asked what I thought, I responded in 2 short sentances and shut up about it. She doesnt need me to tell her what to think.

MC also talked about Boundaries and how hers are rigid and inflexible which isnt healthy, but before they were totally porous and how that is also not healthy. That we both need boundaries where we dont allow others to hurt us, but that we can choose to interact with anyone, not just eachother, constructively in any way we choose.

Last night we were talking and she said she thought it was "innapropriate" for me to give her a massage since I might "get the wrong idea." I disagreed with her, told her I "get the wrong idea" every time I see her, if she must know. Anyway, tonight, she asked for a massage.

Not sure what that means, but it made me happy to see her peaceful. I can totally get when I allow myself to be forced to do something I dont like and I let it happen, how that is weak and stupid to do. I dont think this is like that. I choose to give her a massage. It is something I recently learned to do, and it makes me happy. In fact, nearly all the things she asks me to do genuinely make me happy when I do them for her. I have never felt like I was "sacrificing" for her, the rare times she has asked me for something. Only when I was in my video game fog and was being selfish would I get upset. I guess its a seeing her smile makes me happy, so even things I mildly dislike can become enjoyable when I see her smile. I wouldnt watch TV alone, its boring and I hate commercials, but when she does it and I am with her, the commercials are fun, we talk, and the show is interesting because we share what we think about it. So there, I dont like TV, and wont watch it alone, but with her, its enjoyable.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/22/10 04:04 AM
LorG, I personally dont have any problems with you posting. I also dont mind people disagreeing with you.

However, if there are rules for this board, we should abide by those.

Other than that, I welcome as many perspectives as I can get. Each and everyone is a filter through which I pass my thoughts and oftentimes something pans out that I hadnt realized.

Thank you all for this.

SWW, saynomore, Still_Crazy and Mark and all you others who check on me, thank you so much.

Dont let my denseness stop you from 2x4's. I'm learning to be a big boy and I can take them just fine.

This post skipped it to page 10, so be aware my "main" reply is at the bottom of page 9. Love to hear any thoughts or comments on it.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/22/10 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok, couple things.

I havent seen any records of texts. I dont know how to access them or if I can from Verizon online.

She has not topped 1000 hrs by a long shot, she is sitting around 100 total right now.

Here it is sir, your own words i am afraid:
May 4rd to today:
901 mins / 15hrs with OM
24 mins with her mom
129 mins with everyone else

Apr 4rd to May 3rd:
3534 mins / 58.9hrs with OM


Mar 4th to Apr 3rd:
1133 mins / 18.8 hrs with OM
61 mins with her Mom
149 with me


Feb 4th to Mar 3rd:
6 mins with OM (we lived in same place as him through this month)
140 mins with me

I am not sure what to say you are suffering from paralysis by analysis.

SWW
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/22/10 04:18 AM
Oh sorry,

She mostly goes to the beach or to a meadow or a drive or errands or something. She specifically says she doesnt want me to come wiht. We used to walk on the beach together all the time, especially when we still lived in CA. Now I am not wanted during this time

You are right. It is only in the hundred hours plus, not thousands, my bad.

BT...

SWW
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/22/10 04:22 AM
Have you talked to the OM's wife?

SWW
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/22/10 04:36 AM
No, not with OMs wife, I dont know how to contact her, dont know her name, or address or anything. She lives somewhere in SC.

SWW - I can see that you are convinced its a PA. I can appreciate that you truly want to help me and that you are freely sharing your thoughts even if they get rejected. I am truly thankful for this.

That said, I dont know if it makes you want to kick me in the face for my obstinance or what, but I am not convinced its a PA.

I dont know what to say. I know I will eat it if the VAR catches some craziness somehow, and I will come here and tell you and say you were right, but at this point, I just dont think so.

You are definately throwing it at me and its making me think, but I turn it over, I check the times she has been "out" and see phone calls to people, OM sometimes, other people other times, and I think about how she acts and the things she says and the way OM acts and the things he says, and I just dont see a PA.

Maybe I am blind.
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/22/10 04:55 AM
VAR suggestions:

Olympus DS-30 Digital Voice Recorder
Expensive at $250 bucks. Online at Amazon.
Up to 68 hours of recording time; 30-hour battery life, optional AC adapter (if that could even be utilized and maybe so if not under the couch), and extension microphone optional.

Sony ICDP620 Digital Voice Recorder PC Compatible via USB
Just under $200 bucks. Also online at Amazon.
Supports up to 260 hours of recording time and uses two AAA batteries.

Olympus DS-40 Digital Voice Recorder
$150 bucks, again, at Amazon.
Up to 136 hours of recording time; 30-hour battery life.

I have not used any of them but they are out there. Now you can't drag your feet. Go buy two. smile

I logged onto my Verizon account. I can see every call, time, phone# and length. On the data side, I can see every date, time, Text # to/from, # to/from, sent/received. Of course, can't see content.

There are computer programs you can buy and install onto a cell phone you own (abiding by laws) that will track what you are looking for (records calls and/or sms texts and/or GPS locations dependign upon what you buy). Try sites like Webwatcher Mobile Spy Smartphone Monitoring or Flexispy (assuming she has the right phone). If she doesn't...it would not be out of the oridinary for a 15th month old to drop her incompatabile cell phone in the toilet (kids like toilets) thus requiring her to get a new "compatable" one.

It is just the truth you are after. I would not be angry if HBS used any tools on me. When we installed "nanny cams" our nannies all said they did not care - they had nothing to hide.

No more excuses.

Added - OM wife. Facebook, friend OM, view OMs friends. View friends of OMs friends. Chat with OM until you know her 1st name. Last name you should already know. Then match that to a friend. Use LinkedIn. Same searches. Try Zabasearch (free & somewhat helpful). Filter thru names by estimated DOB (ask OM casually about OM wife to gather data such as did he marry older or younger and by how much and did he thing that had anything to do with hw their marriage turned out, or how long did they live in...(then say) "what city did you say you lived in SC again"? How did they pick there to live...blah blah. People will talk when you show an interest. Then use that to find her. She is an important tool for you so invest in finding out who she is.

Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/22/10 05:02 AM
Forgot to add. Her allowing you to give her a massage. IMO - not something someone who is "feeling divorced" would likely do. Getting a massage is hardly something you want from someone you want nothing to do with.

I like your reply told her I "get the wrong idea" every time I see her. Honest. Intimate. Flattering. Powerful. Yet you verbally respected her boundary. I liked the balance. And you gave her a massage. And she accepted it. And...she ASKED for it.

It is a good thing.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/22/10 05:21 AM
Thats the thing. I honestly dont think there is a PA, and that this EA is kinda being blown up because she doesnt HAVE anyone else to talk to. She doesnt feel she can talk to me, because she feels she needs to protect herself from me.
but
she cant talk to her dad (no phone)
not really her mom (she knows her mom is nuts but loves her anyway)
not her old friends because they all have kids and are really busy and most are 3 hours behind us
and she doesnt have new friends that are really GOOD friends since she only has maybe 1-2 years with any of them (moving in the military)

It MIGHT be a PA or a deep EA, but so much says that it very well might NOT be.

So I dont know, I will VAR, thanks for the info, I wrote them down and will see if the stores have any of those. I cant do online because I only have a couple days till I leave.

I think in addition, she feels hurt and tired of what we had going, she doesnt want it back. Thats fine, I agree. We BOTH dont want it back, but she doesnt trust that it could be better.

She is not dumb, but she doesnt think the way I do. I love talking to her so much because of that. Such a different perspective so alien to the way I analyse and the world. I miss her terribly.

I am hoping that the "expose" letter can bring her friends and family to support her. If they think she should leave me, fine, if they think she shouldnt, also fine. As long as she gets to talk to someone about it, instead of sitting in her own mind, I think she will be better off no matter what happens.

I know how confused I have been, and I have been talking to,
well...

2 psychologist (1 is a current coworker I bounce ideas off of, the other for a few sessions about 4 months ago)
1 therapist (coworker from the place we moved from)
1 really good friend who mostly listens
this entire board with wonderful people like Mark, Mel, and you guys recently that jumped in on teh Affair board

I have gotten lots of instant feedback and had many 2x4's telling me what I ahve been doing wrong. I am also very analytical in the fact that if it makes sense to me that its the "right" way to do something, its done, I will do it.

Same reason I cant say its a PA... I cant get it to add up enough for me.

Maybe I am hoping at shadows and the devil will get the last laugh....
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/22/10 05:23 AM
About facebook...

yeah, OM is 50 something. He types with his pointers, hates computers, has no facebook or email outside the mandatory USMC work email we have to use. He complains incesantly about them at work, and even W has told me how she mentioned to him that he should get facebook and he said "not likely."

He is also not on my Ws facebook, so... yeah.

Thankful for technology impaired people for probably the ONLY time in my life....
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/22/10 05:36 AM
Amazon. Order RIGHT NOW. Overnight shipping. Received by Monday May 24th.

If that is not fast enough - do you have anyone that you trust that could come to the house and swap out a couple of VARs while you are gone so you can get your recording time you need?

Other options I have seen at pimall.com. Can't speak to their quality but good place for info.

If Monday is soon enough, then go order at Amazon now.

Good luck and good night.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/22/10 05:38 AM
No monday is not fast enough.

I will buy from a store, no worries.

My flight leaves on Monday, and fedex has a history of showing up around 4-5pm, long after I will be gone.

Thanks though, good night!!
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/22/10 11:46 AM
"The only problem I have with OM is that W chooses to spend time with him and NOT me. If it was with US (me and OM and our son) as a family with OM tagging along, and then other time with me or me and our son, alone, than I dont think I would have a problem."

You think the OM is banging your WW but you can say this?
Posted By: MaiMai Re: My thread - 05/22/10 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Thats the thing. I honestly dont think there is a PA,

That's because you are, albiet unintentionally, being dishonest with yourself.

Do you really think she's walking in a meadow or on the beach?!?!
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/22/10 12:44 PM
Well, MaiMai... yes I do think that is really what she is doing.

and TR, I dont think he is banging my W, so I can say that.

She was starting to get emotionally distant before we moved in Nov 09, and I can recognize that now in hindsight. After the move, before meeting OM, she had already begun to be short with me, avoiding touching and all that. I thought she was just upset with the move and that it would work itself out when we settled in and started counseling and talking and stuff.

OM wasnt a friend till about the last month we were there, so February.

I am not saying there is no chance, and I am not trying to disregard advice.

Many of you say "definately PA," so I am getting VARs to snoop while I am gone. I got the phone stuff. Hopefully the VAR will show if its deep EA, PA, or whatever and I can adjust from there. I guess its not ALL neat that OM is technologically impaired because it reduces a lot of the evidence that might be just lying around.

I need some evidence because I am just not convinced.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/22/10 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
SWW - I can see that you are convinced its a PA. I can appreciate that you truly want to help me and that you are freely sharing your thoughts even if they get rejected. I am truly thankful for this.

That said, I dont know if it makes you want to kick me in the face for my obstinance or what, but I am not convinced its a PA.

You are definately throwing it at me and its making me think, but I turn it over, I check the times she has been "out" and see phone calls to people, OM sometimes, other people other times, and I think about how she acts and the things she says and the way OM acts and the things he says, and I just dont see a PA.

Maybe I am blind.

BT,

I am not trying to throw it at you to be mean. I want you to be mentally prepared though. Also, if it has gone PA it makes it much more difficult to extricate her from the affair.

Did i hear you right? You and the OM are in the Marine Corps? The cell evidence alone is enough to go talk to your CofC and get this OM away from your wife. Does he outrank you? You could stir this up so he will never want to speak to your WW again. Then, you might have a chance to save your marriage.

I am in the Navy, and you know what the military thinks about a higher ranking enlisted or officer fraternizing with a junior's wife. You could end his career.

SWW
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/22/10 10:05 PM
Oh no no, SWW, I certainly dont think you are being mean. Didnt mean to convey that.

I feel I am mentally prepared if it IS a PA. I also know a PA would be a lot more drawn out, but I feel also that a lot of other things would be easier if its a PA.

PA is PA, everyone knows and thinks its bad. EA is kinda gray. MB is quite clear, but other people (friends and family, IDK, THE JUDGE) might not agree or whatever. If it was a PA, would be simpler in some ways, but more work. IDK. I dont want it to be a PA obviously.

No, neither of us is USMC. We are both civilian employees for a USMC school.

I was a Navy HM until Feb 2010, hoo ya navy, and yeah... seen plenter of E w/e + Officer frat problems. Sad the things that happen...

Dont stop SWW. Even if you think I am retarded and stupid or whatever, I DO listen to you and everyone else. I DO appreciate all your input.

Every person has valuable experience and I appreciate them sharing it.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/22/10 10:07 PM
Today has been great so far...

will post later maybe.

We have cleaning and movie to watch together after little man is down for the night...

trying so hard to keep it light and non-R fight stuff.

need lots of happy thoughts =D
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/22/10 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
About facebook...

yeah, OM is 50 something. He types with his pointers, hates computers, has no facebook or email outside the mandatory USMC work email we have to use. He complains incesantly about them at work, and even W has told me how she mentioned to him that he should get facebook and he said "not likely."

He is also not on my Ws facebook, so... yeah.

Thankful for technology impaired people for probably the ONLY time in my life....

BT, I would then hire a PI to track down his wife. I have not tried this one, but here it is: http://www.cheatingspousepi.com/

Or PrincessMeggy suggested using publicdata.com

Quote
"The only problem I have with OM is that W chooses to spend time with him and NOT me. If it was with US (me and OM and our son) as a family with OM tagging along, and then other time with me or me and our son, alone, than I dont think I would have a problem."

I tried to find this quote but could only see it in TheRoad's post. You surely did not say this, did you? I almost fainted when I saw this quote and just want to make sure you really said it before I allow my blood pressure goes to stroke levels and i burst a gasket. Please tell me you did not say this.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/22/10 10:56 PM
IDK Mel.

I did say that.

I am saying OM, assuming no PA or anything, is a decent guy. I put myself in his shoes and cant say what I would do different or see wrong with it. Assuming no PA of course.

Please go ahead and go stroke levels and let me have it if you disagree with this...
Posted By: saynomore Re: My thread - 05/22/10 10:59 PM
Get your meds ready, Mel. It was about halfway through BT's last post on page 9. The whole post dropped my jaw. We can only pray that the VAR brings out something that will convince him.

God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: MaiMai Re: My thread - 05/22/10 11:06 PM
I hate this part....Your wife is banging OM...No doubt.

Sorry.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/22/10 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I am saying OM, assuming no PA or anything, is a decent guy. I put myself in his shoes and cant say what I would do different or see wrong with it. Assuming no PA of course.

Please go ahead and go stroke levels and let me have it if you disagree with this...


Is your wife having an affair or not? If she is not having an affair then what are you doing here on SAA? If she is, then you are MESSED UP to suggest that her OTHER MAN, the enemy of your marriage and your child's family, ACCOMPANY you on an outing.

If he is having an affair with your wife, he is NOT a "decent guy." That is ludicrous.

That is SICK. And I am scared you are walking about FREE with such a destructive, lackadaisical attitude about INFIDELITY. You do not have the luxury of wacky moral retardation when you have CHILDREN, SIR. You have a moral OBLIGATION to protect your marriage and your children.

If this is your attitude then I view YOU as a greater threat to your marriage and your child than the affair. Defining deviancy down will avail you exactly nothing.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/22/10 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by saynomore
Get your meds ready, Mel. It was about halfway through BT's last post on page 9. The whole post dropped my jaw. We can only pray that the VAR brings out something that will convince him.

God's Blessings,

Say

I am confused. Is she having an affair or not? The PA part is irrelevant. AN AFFAIR IS AN AFFAIR.

Is this an affair or not?
Posted By: saynomore Re: My thread - 05/22/10 11:28 PM
I say, yes. OM claims to be divorcing. He is living apart from his W. (different states) BT has hundreds of hours of logged phone calls between them. His W leaves him with his son for hours in the evenings while she takes drives and walks on the beach "alone." She has emotionally distanced herself fom BT.


If it walks like a duck....


God's Blessings,

Say
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/23/10 03:03 AM
W distanced herself prior to this OM. Then they became friends.

Thank you Mel, and please, continue and respond. I may be way off.

I dont think there is a PA at all. I dont think there is an EA beyond friends. MB says no opposite sex friends outside the marraige.

To my wife, she was "outside the marraige" about 4-6 months ago. She has told me she felt "done," back then. The fact that she continued to move to NC from Maine with me, picked a house, signed papers with me, and THEN told me "Oh, I am not staying by the way" points to maybe she wasnt "done" for sure. I think that having OM as someone to have a not UNhappy conversation with highlighted all the bad ones we had been having and helped her see that she didnt want our marraige anymore.

That said, I DONT think its ok for her to think "Oh, I am emotionally done, so I dont have to try anymore," and I dont want our son to learn that. She didnt have a limit to her marraige vows beyond infidelity (the traditional vows), so quitting for any other reason is breaking an oath.

That said, I dont want our old marraige anymore. It was flawed. She gave and gave and never asked for anything, I recieved and recieved and never wondered at her not asking for anything. Thats dependancy. I dont want that. IF we can pull through this, we will have to build a whole new relationship. I am totally willing to do this. "I do" meant just that to me.

We dated/knew each other for 2 months before we got married.
A 9 month deployment in there, and our flawed relationship, and she sees this mountain of LB habits built up where it seems impossible to "save" our marraige. That said, I still said, "I do," so I am not done.

I dont think she is cheating in a PA, and the time spent talking with OM is due to their not being anyone else available for her to talk to, that she is willing to talk to (ie-not me).

I hope the VAR's can clear some of this up. If theres a PA, then I go from there.



Tonight - watched Where the Wild Things Are. Talked for about 1.5 hours. She brought it to relationship and I failed to stop it. I dont think I said anything too bad. I mostly listened, asked a lot of questions. Only thing possibly bad was she asked me why I think she is leaving. I told her:

1) You see this huge pile of things on top of our marraige, all the hurt, neglect, etc, and you feel that even if we can get rid of it all, you arent sure the marraige we had was even viable from the start.
2) You dont trust me not to fall back to the way things were.

First, she got mad and said "I didnt hear you say I once, like you didnt do anything wrong, like you think this is all my fault."

I said, what do you disagree with about my answer besides not saying I?
"Well, IDK, I didnt really hear it, I was listening for I"
I restated each, and we talked, and I explained that the mound of garbage was from both of us, I am not denying that or the fact that I broke trust.
So she said, "well, I guess thats about it. The biggest reason though is because you ignored me, you ignored us, and our sons. Maybe you arent doing it now, but I dont trust you not to fall back to it."

So basically, I failed at relationship talk, but we werent arguing. It wasnt a LB conversation with AO's DJs and SDs, rather an honest exchange of thoughts and feelings. So I dont know if its all bad.

We both dont really like our current MC. Maybe she would be willing to try SH if this guy doesnt work out?

She said again she is only doing counseling so she can say she did it, and to try to get us to a point where she can be friends with me.
I asked if she agrees that to be friends, we have to heal this hate, distrust, and resentment.
She said yes, and agreed that MC would have to get us to the "freind" point on the way to "married," so MC still makes sense for accomplishing her ultimate goal of just being friends.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/23/10 03:04 AM
Heard OMs wifes name, unsure of spelling, havent looked it up yet to see if I can find her. Its on the list of things either this weekend, or during the week I am gone.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/23/10 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I dont think there is a PA at all. I dont think there is an EA beyond friends. MB says no opposite sex friends outside the marraige.

so if this is not an EA then what is the problem? If they are just "friends" then invite him over to your house tomorrow and you can all be "friends." Can you invite him over for dinner tommorrow?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/23/10 03:34 AM
He has been over for dinner. He watches our son sometimes for us, borrows us his truck, I lived with the guy too. He is a friend. I refer to him as OM so that people know who I am talking about.

I am on this forum because it was said "its an EA, go to SAA." Others have tried to convince me its a PA or EA. I am not sure, but I am on SAA because THESE guys would most likely recognize it for what it was. With that said, I dont think its a PA, but I will heed the advice to snoop more. SAA has helped me already.

She fulfills her need for Conversation with OM. She says she was "done" with me about 4 months ago, and the conversation definately died off back then. That is also before the friendship with OM really started.

To her its not even close to an EA since she wasnt emotionally connected to me before she even started talking to him.

I DO recognize that for us to rebuild our marraige she will need to talk to ME. Right now, she doesnt want to rebuild.

Maybe I am doing this wrong, Mel.

I am thinking about the "Man up" post.

I cant tell her what to do. I dont feel like I can say "You are not allowed to talk to OM anymore," not because I fear her wrath, but because she has removed herself. To her the marraige was over before OM was even around.

Do I have this wrong?

I dont even feel like I could say "Your EA with OM is destroying our marraige," since it was pretty much gone prior to OM. I could definately say "Your contact with OM is hindering any chance of recovering our marraige," but she doesnt want to recover it, so therefore there is no problem to her.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/23/10 03:47 AM
BT, this probably is an EA, and more likely a PA. I would focus on getting the goods and then taking steps to expose it. But first, you need to focus on getting the goods.

Can you have her followed by a PI when she leaves for her "walks?' What can you do to do to get the goods? Is the OM free to come to your house during the day?

Quote
I could definately say "Your contact with OM is hindering any chance of recovering our marraige," but she doesnt want to recover it, so therefore there is no problem to her.

Then why is she there? Has she filed for divorce?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/23/10 11:03 AM
I am leaving for a week on Mon. I will have VAR in the house to possibly catch her doing something.

She has not filed for divorce.

She is looking for a job, wants to get that, save up a bit, then get a place, get all set up, then file.

She has threatened to "leave now" a couple of times over this or that, but it hasnt amounted to much. Though last night she said if I invade her privacy like with the phone minutes she would leave right then. Whether she leaves now or later ir really not a big deal, so I dont want to "drive her out," but I am not going to stop working on myself and our marraige.
Posted By: MaiMai Re: My thread - 05/23/10 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
He has been over for dinner. He watches our son sometimes for us, borrows us his truck, I lived with the guy too. He is a friend.

In a week or two re-reading these words will make you taste the vomit at the back of your throat.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/23/10 12:48 PM
If you turn out to be right MaiMai, I will be the first to let you know.

Thank you for trying your best to warn me.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/23/10 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Though last night she said if I invade her privacy like with the phone minutes she would leave right then. Whether she leaves now or later ir really not a big deal, so I dont want to "drive her out," but I am not going to stop working on myself and our marraige.

Working on yourself is cute and winsome, BT, but you don't really have the luxury of doing that right now. Your marriage is in crisis and needs your attention. I am very concerned this has dragged on so long without you taking some stronger action.

The longer this goes on, the more entrenched the affair becomes. It is obvious to me that this is an affair, and even Mark told you this some time back. Yet you have done nothing to whatsoever to bust up this affair as far as i can see. In fact, you seem to be in denial and actually CONDONING the affair and allowing this man around your child.

You need to STEP UP the snooping, not scale back. Your wife does not have the right to the privacy to have an affair. Everything she does is your business.

Will a voice activated recorder in your home get you the intel you need?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/23/10 04:58 PM
How old is this child? Is he old enough that he would remember that you did this to him? I will WARN you strongly, that if he is old enough to remember this he will not remember your neglect fondly. I was allowed to go around my father's mistresses when I was FOUR and I DEEPLY RESENT the moral confusion it instilled in me at a very young age. Kids instinctively know right from wrong and when adults won't validate that feeling, they learn to DOUBT THEMSELVES. I concluded at a very young age that I must be a very stupid girl.

BT, I would remind you that you have a moral obligation to PROTECT your child from harm and allowing him to be around his mothers lover is gross dereliction of duty. You will be as guilty as SHE if you don't step up and protect this child from this exposure.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/23/10 05:03 PM
Mel,

there's hundreds of hours of phone calls, she disappears to drive alone to meadows and the beach and will not let BT go with her. The OM came over to their house to assure BT he was not having an affair w/his wife, they just supported each other and talked. She has the wayward script down pat.

This is an EA for sure (prob PA as well) and an EA will destroy your marriage same as a PA will BT. Get some more evidence, though I think you have enough already.

SWW
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/23/10 05:22 PM
I have to agree, SWW. I don't understand why he is not doing anything to stop this.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: My thread - 05/23/10 07:23 PM
Hi BT,

I just came across your thread. You're getting loads of great advice here from Melody and everyone, and while I am not a veteran as such I would like to offer my observations in the hope that you will become more proactive.

First BT I think you're getting too hung up between the EA and PA. Both are destructive to any marriage. If my favorite baseball team gets beaten today 10-0 instead of 15-0 (which could have happened) should it matter? In either case they were sufficiently whacked!

"I dont even feel like I could say "Your EA with OM is destroying our marraige," since it was pretty much gone prior to OM. I could definately say "Your contact with OM is hindering any chance of recovering our marraige," but she doesnt want to recover it, so therefore there is no problem to her."

I feel in your above statement you have provided both a summary of and a solution to your situation, but you seem to fail to see it. I believe you said earlier that your wife began disengaging from you and your marriage back in Nov. of last year. Well what has happened since is that she now has an OM and that is further aggravating the situation.

Hypothetically take the OM out of the picture and that there is no affair. You are working hard, as you are now, to learn her top EN's and to satisfy them the best you can. I.e., the changes you are making. Would you be able to draw her back into your marriage and encourage her to recommit - maybe, maybe not. But imho I believe you would have a much better chance than you do now.

Now, with the OM in the picture by your own admission of keeping him as a 'friend' you yourself are contributing to the "doesn't want to recover it" feeling on her part. Why should she want to recover her marriage? Again imho it is because she now has an attractive alternate who is able to satisfy her top EN's. By allowing her A to become more entrenched as Melody tells you, you are allowing him to become even more of an attractive option, and you even less attractive. Any btw, there is No reason under the sun to consider this guy as anything close to a 'friend'. He is now your enemy. He has intruded into and is sitting there in the middle of your marriage, and is preventing you from having any chance of recovering your marriage!

The solution, listen to the people here and attack and kill this affair using all the tools that are available for you here.

In addition BT, you mentioned that your W doesn't have many or any friends now after your move (except for OM who is NOT a friend). Well, get creative. Encourage your W or even take her to clubs, organizations, groups, and functions along the lines of both of your interests so both of you, especially her, can meet and make friends with people who are not a threat to your marrage. These can be any kinds of groups or activities, such as square dancing to PAC's to volunteer activities.

Well my three cents, and good luck BT.

Tom

Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/23/10 11:12 PM
Thank you Tom.

Ok, Mel - yes, a VAR would give me what I need assuming its there.

Son is 16 months old.

Mel, your arguments along with some stuff I been thinking about has kinda kicked me in the [censored].

I have been trying to "respect" my wife and not try to control her. But me not doing things to avoid controlling her is a DJ. Its assuming I control her.

I dont. I control me.

My son controls no one.

I believe in my heart that my wife and I can be happy. I am willing to do what it takes to get us there.

The fact that Wife doesnt want to, even if I CAN understand where she is coming from and empathize with her, I DO think she is wrong.

I DO think her leaving will cause our son pain, no matter how "friendly" we can become. I am changing myself for me, my wife, my marraige, and my son. But I havent been fighting for my son.

Plan (such as it is at this point)

1) VAR will be in place, I get back Fri and W is gone for weekend camping with Cousin (verified on facebook etc, unless the cousin and co are covering for her... which I dont think is the case).

2) Letter's going out this week (sent while I am gone) to friends and family apprising of the situation. I will write them during my trip and post them here for feedback and thoughts before I send them.

3) I need to figure out a way to broach this subject with W respectfully. I dont want to LB, but I need to tell her that her "decision" that this wont work without giving it an honest try (my opinion, she says by suffering and waiting for me to change for this long constitutes trying) is going to hurt our son, no matter how "amicable" our divorce might be able to be, its going to be worse for our son then us staying together and honoring our commitment and vows. As such, I am not doing Divorce. Also, that her allowing OM to fulfill ANY needs rather than coming to me with the problems she had is breaking her vows and is a form of affair.

Some way to say that without DJs and such. Preferably some way that allows her to accept an SH appointment. We have another MC appointment on Tues after Mem day (the day after she gets back from camping.)

And possibly more depending on what the VAR has on it.

Thoughts?


EDIT: PLEASE dont give up on me people... I just read a post on NPs thread where someone said vets had stopped posting because they were giving advice and it wasnt being taken.

Please dont let me, or even NP, not taking your guys advice make you not want to give it.

If you have good advice, and you feel we need to hear it, dont DJ us by saying "they arent going to listen anyway." If you want to post something, post.

Obviously, you dont have to post. This forum isnt married to us newbs and hasnt made any formal commitment to us. Just... dont let the idea that "they wont listen anyway" stop you from posting.

It may feel like yelling at a wall, but the walls have ears, and sometimes, they just need the right words to open those ears. Please dong give up on us
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/24/10 12:04 AM
Nobody is giving up on you here BT. I really wish you could find a way to get out of leaving town this week.

It seems you are coming around to the fact that there is a monster attacking your marriage, and that is the addiction your WW has for the OM.

Your thoughts of trying to "talk to your WW and explain to her why her actions are going to hurt your son" will not work BT. You are going to have to man up and slay this dragon, and that means keep collecting intel, and then massive nuclear exposure accompanied by a solid Plan A.

SWW
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/24/10 12:19 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I have been trying to "respect" my wife and not try to control her. But me not doing things to avoid controlling her is a DJ. Its assuming I control her.

BT, you are real close to having folks give up, I am sad to say. That is because you seem to be in denial and are not even close to getting it. The Titantic is sinking and you are focused on the peeling paint in the girls bathroom. If you don't wake up and start doing something soon, the ship is going to sink. No one here can help you if you refuse to wake up and start helping yourself.

It seems your main goal is to avoid conflict at all costs, rather than save your marriage. The above statement confirms my suspicions.

The main reason I post to people who don't listen is because I am scared to death that other conflict avoiders will read this thread and think it is the right way to handle an affair. It is hard enough to help conflict avoiders on this forum without them seeing stuff like this.

"You are controlling me' is the favored refrain of WAYWARD wives and those who engage in any independent behavior when her H objects to her abusive behavior. If your main goal is to avoid that complaint, then you had better move out right damn now, becasue you will never make it. YOU ARE NOT DOING YOUR JOB TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE IF SHE DOESN'T SAY THAT.

You should be DEMANDING that she end her affair with her OM, and you are here wringing your hands about whether or not she will view you as "controlling." Check this out:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

Sound a little "controlling" there?? You bet your [censored] he does!

But it seems to avoid this kind of confrontation you have ALLOWED your wife to spin the relationship as a "friendship" and you have gone along wiht this PRETENSE even though board veterans told you weeks ago this was an affair. If you had any doubts, you could have ruled them in or out weeks ago. BUT THAT HAS NOT BEEN DONE.

The goal here is to save your marriage, NOT to avoid her anger at all costs. You cannot run screaming from the room like a GURL when she screams "you are controlling me" or you are not going to make it.

Your wife is having an affair with this man, Sir. A woman does not sneak off at night and have hundreds of texts and emails with a man unless she is having an affair.

What astonishes me is that you have been here for several weeks and have done ABSOLUTELTY nothing to save your marriage. NOTHING. The situation grows bleaker by the day with the OM coming into your home at will and now she is planning a weekend rendevous without you, no doubt to meet the OM.

Quote
) I need to figure out a way to broach this subject with W respectfully. I dont want to LB, but I need to tell her that her "decision" that this wont work without giving it an honest

You don't try to reason with a falling down drunk. That is a fools mission. You get the goods, expose the affair and then tell her the OM is NEVER TO SET FOOT IN YOUR HOUSE AGAIN. He is to never be around your child ever again.

You must DEMAND that she end her affair with the OM and stop piddling around here. If you don't stand up and start doing something, the OM is going to replace you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/24/10 12:21 AM
Registered: 04/30/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Eastern NC

Son, you have been here long enough to get it. Frankly, I am not hopeful. People here want to help you, but if you REFUSE to help yourself, this is hopeless.

I want to remind you that your best thinking got you into this mess, it won't get you out. Most of the ppl posting to you have SAVED their marriages using these tactics.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: My thread - 05/24/10 12:37 AM
Hey BT, and you're welcome.

From what I have seen here please be assured that if you at least show some recognition of and action on the advice people give you they are not going to give up. Like with any group, either online or face-to-face, people get busy or they may choose who they can relate to on here. It's not a matter of personality.

Anyway, if you have Melody Lane on your side believe me, from my limited experience with this person, you are being coached by the V. Lombardi of MB! This is not tongue-in-cheek or facecious (sp) or anything like that - it is based on first, my own screwy preference for sports analogies, and second, just that she simply seems honest and extremely knowledgable and insightful. If her name is attached to your thread in terms of responses you will get others to join in.

Best of luck and prayers BT,

Toom
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/24/10 12:40 AM
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Tom. smile

Posted By: Tom2010 Re: My thread - 05/24/10 12:50 AM
Melody,

Oooops, please don't say that. I follow the Brewers baseball team and a few days ago the owner gave the manager a 'vote of confidence', which means he will could be fired in a few days due to their losing streak.

*s* I just simply would rather have you take it as respect for what you have gone thru and what you are doing to help people now.

I am smiling now because BT is going to see this and wonder what the hell is going on on his thread, and I don't normally post asides on other people's thread but just had to do it tonight....*s*

Tom
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/24/10 02:37 AM
BT i am assuming that you are getting ready to leave on your business trip. Please make sure you have something set up (either the VAR or a PI) BEFORE you leave on this trip.

And Mel, SWW, and all the others here posting to you are some of the best people on this board so please listen to them.

An EA is just as bad if not worse on your marriage than a PA. She is looking at you as this not-so-great husband that she maybe should not have married and looking at this other man as her knight-in-shining armor. And the longer you let it go on the better her knight will look, regardless of how he really looks.

During an affair both people are on their best behavior and they tell the other person how right they are about everything and they only show their best side so they both look absolutely wonderful to each other right now.

Also try your best to get the OMWs name and contact her to at least verify that they are "getting a divorce" because like i said i would pretty much bet that she has no idea about that little piece of information that effects her whole life too.

You really need to quit denying that it is already an affair even if they have not "done the deed" so to speak (which i doubt is the case sorry to say)......

Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/24/10 02:54 AM
Yeah, Tom, I liked the "take her out to meet other people so she can have a chance to make acceptable friends and listen to the vets" post.

This last one I dont understand...

=D

Quote
I have been trying to "respect" my wife and not try to control her. But me not doing things to avoid controlling her is a DJ. Its assuming I control her.

I dont know how to word this "better", but Mel you seemed to take it as me justifying not doing things. I meant it as an admission. I recognize that what I WAS doing is not appropriate. That I need to DO something and not worry about how she percieves it.

Unfortunately, I cannot get out of this trip this week, however it gives as good an opportunity as any for the VAR to get stuff. I got an Olympus WS-400S, and got lithium battaries to help it last as long as possible.

Bedroom or Living room? I am thinking bedroom... mostly because its easier to hide it on the bed frame and because well.... bedroom: if I want to catch "the worst" that would be it.

All you guys saying "hung up on EA or PA" are right.

Ok, I have a question...

If I start going off about OM to W, with the demand that he go away, she is going to get angry. This doesnt bother me. However, she may do things and I may start to get angry.

Am I supposed to get yelling loud and Angry Outburst? It doesnt seem right, but I dont know, maybe it gets the point accross? My "thought" is that no, dont AO, just calmly and assuredly state it. Let her blow up or whatever, and stay calm.

Thoughts?

Oh, and I am not saying people are giving up on me, NP or any other newb, just asking that they dont.

I really appreciate the time and damage to your guys blood vessels you are suffering to deal with me. It must be stressful being so slow...

I am testing the VAR right now, to see if the sound of my speakers triggers it, so i can set it so that the TV doesnt make it go off...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/24/10 03:05 AM
Thanks for listening, BT. And I forgive you for messing up my blood pressure. grin

Of course you don't react to her anger with angry outbursts. If you get angry, don't react with anger. Be calm and FIRM and don't allow her to drag you into a fight.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/24/10 03:09 AM
Ok, another thing...

She says stuff like, "I guess I will be taking this item since I will have Son and will need it," about a lot of things as we unpack. She has also acted as if its a forgone conclusion that she gets Son. She tries to say that its because I am the H and I have a job so she will be the more available parent, but she plans to work as soon as she can find a job and I happen to not think its a forgone conclusion.

I DO however know how hard it is for a H/Father to get anything from watching my own father fight my mother for years and years.

I am wondering, does an Affair make it more likely that the faithful spouse gets custody?

Right now, this is what is upsetting me the most, especially after Mel's repeated 2x4s to my skull to wake me up, is what her actions will show our Son. He may not remember it, but he will see the after effects.

He will see that "I swear I will do this till I die," actually means "until I dont feel like it anymore."
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/24/10 03:09 AM
SWEET!! Thanks Mel, I got one right... NO AO's!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/24/10 03:16 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
She says stuff like, "I guess I will be taking this item since I will have Son and will need it," about a lot of things as we unpack. She has also acted as if its a forgone conclusion that she gets Son. She tries to say that its because I am the H and I have a job so she will be the more available parent, but she plans to work as soon as she can find a job and I happen to not think its a forgone conclusion.

She acts as if this is a foregone conclusion because you have not disabused her of this notion. Get the goods on the affair and then explain to her that she will not be leaving with your son without a court order. And if she files, you will be filing on grounds of adultery for full possession of the home and primary custody of your son. If you are in a fault state, you can even have the OM called into court to give testimony about his affair.

She needs to be told that you will NOT cooperate in any divorce action. She needs to understand that HELL IS COMING and that you will defend your marriage and your child from her adultery.

An affair does make it more likely that the father gets custody.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/24/10 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
SWEET!! Thanks Mel, I got one right... NO AO's!!

hurray

Also, what is your plan on getting the OM's wife's information? Have you come up with a plan to get that?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/24/10 03:40 AM
I got her name, am searching it right now and did about an hour searching last night.

I dont know how to spell it...

How many ways are there to spell Marcy?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/24/10 03:41 AM
W let the OMW's name slip during a story yesterday when we went shopping all together as a family...
Posted By: karmasrose Re: My thread - 05/24/10 03:45 AM
It can be Marcie, so you can look that up too. Look up a babynames website, and go to the girl section and click on M...
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/24/10 03:49 AM
This VAR is quite interesting...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/24/10 03:50 AM
BT, I would also be thinking about next steps. If you get the goods, I would plan on confronting her and demanding she end her affair, followed by a widespread exposure.

If you don't get any thing on the VAR, can you swing a PI?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/24/10 03:51 AM
Do you have someone who can drive by your house while you are gone and get photos of them together in your home?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/24/10 04:01 AM
Hmmm... I might, PI might be easier though. Just like she doesnt have many friends down here, I dont really either.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/24/10 04:11 AM
Widespread exposure, I am already accumulating addresses. We have many friends and family who have been moving and such, that we mostly keep in contact via facebook / email / phone, so addresses are hard to come by. I want to send paper.

Still working on Marci, or sons name, have that too
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/24/10 04:13 AM
Oddly, she hasnt taken off to be alone at night for, well... 5 days maybe? Not sure.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/24/10 04:18 AM
What about neighbors? I have been making it a point to be more friendly to people last 5 months or so, and its kinda payed off. Couple of the neighbors are real comfy coming over.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/24/10 08:45 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
She says stuff like, "I guess I will be taking this item since I will have Son and will need it," about a lot of things as we unpack. She has also acted as if its a forgone conclusion that she gets Son. She tries to say that its because I am the H and I have a job so she will be the more available parent, but she plans to work as soon as she can find a job and I happen to not think its a forgone conclusion.

I am wondering, does an Affair make it more likely that the faithful spouse gets custody?


she says this stuff because right now she is a vile creature with no respect for you whatsoever, because you actually sat there while she and her lover worked to gether to con you into believing they were not in an affair and you actually listened to it. You haven't stood up to her...yet.

I really hope you get something good on the VAR this week, but even if you don't i hope you realize it is time you took control here. Exposure will give you control, it will also send a lot of those panicky feelings away.

Your WW is in her fantasy dream world where OM comes in and takes your place as your child's father and they live happily ever after swooning in their love. She is gonna hate you for ruining her little fantasy, but your marriage is pretty much over if you don't take thse vital steps to take control.

I see you were asking about how to respond to her anger. You need to buy the book Surviving an Affair and read it this week, it will tell you how to handle these types of situations. You really at a minimum need to read the boook this week if you are going to wait to expose till you return.

Please, please, read that book this week.

Everything is going to be ok BT.

SWW
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/24/10 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
What about neighbors? I have been making it a point to be more friendly to people last 5 months or so, and its kinda payed off. Couple of the neighbors are real comfy coming over.

Good,

Maybe they will see something like OM at the house while you are gone, but better, once you have exposed WW won't be able to have OM over if she knows neighbors watching.

SWW
Posted By: MaiMai Re: My thread - 05/24/10 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Oddly, she hasnt taken off to be alone at night for, well... 5 days maybe? Not sure.


Marcy is keeping him busy.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/24/10 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Oddly, she hasnt taken off to be alone at night for, well... 5 days maybe? Not sure.

Oddly enough no......

How long ago did the OM come to your house to tell you it was not an affair and they were just friends?

I think around the same time. They are either just cooling it for a minute until the heat dies down or have gone deeper underground so you are not suspicious is my guess.
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 05/24/10 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I know what an EA is. I understand MB and why its bad. However, how do I explain it to non-MB friends and family? Do "normal" people just "get" that 60 hrs a month on the phone with someone is not cool?

Normal people GET that DATING somebody else's wife is wrong. Despicable. Nasty. Adulterous.

Normal people get that 60 hours a month on the phone together is a form of dating.

Normal people get that it's wrong to date someone else's husband or wife, even if they've never heard the term "emotional affair." The concept or the term may be new to you, but I assure you there are lots of people who have never heard of Marriage Builders who think this way.

Do you believe it's normal for married people to date other people?
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/25/10 12:44 PM
Re: Oddly, she hasnt taken off to be alone at night for, well... 5 days maybe? Not sure.

Lots of reasons this might be. Regardless, time with you and not alone or with OM is a good thing.

You are out of town now anyways so the VAR(s) is/are in place, and you have stepped up your willingness to get information and all of that is a good thing. Keep the course.

While you are away, don't forget to stay in touch with your W, keep the contact up as you have been, attempt to keep meeting her ENs while you are away and avoid LBs that can come up when a spouse travels.

Don't forget that the VAR is there so two points to consider: 1) If you talk to her too much/too long while she is in the room with the VAR, you may run out of recording times/battery life.
2) If you call her while she is at home where the VAR is and speak with her briefly, if she is having an EA with OM, your call may very well help trigger her to call OM after you call, this getting you more relevant info on the VAR. When she uses OM to talk about her M with you, a call from you can easily be a trigger to get her to call OM.

It is manipulating the situation but your goal is information so consider it an option. You can hope & pray you get the right few minutes on the VAR with her on the phone with OM, or you can gently provide her with the triggers you know will prompt a call to OM when you know she is somewhere near the VAR.

Godspeed BT.

Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/26/10 04:25 AM
Thanks LorG and others.

I have come to the point (THANKS SO MUCH MARKOS!!) that I can believe that other people will "know" that the phone records are enough. The VAR is neat and all, but I have come to realize that you guys are right, I dont need whatever evidence it may provide. It can help if it gives me evidence of a PA or something, but I already know its an EA, and have enough evidence to show any sane person that its an EA.

I still dont believe there is a PA, just for the record, so that if there is and I have to come on here and tell you guys, you can wag your fingers and "We told you so..."

Anyway...

Thanks a ton Mel and SWW and Mark for his SEVERAL posts and infinate patience.


Today:

Well, yesterday, left her home very happy, she had her hair done before I left so she wouldnt have to get child care for son to do it later, she asked ME how it looked and I honestly told her how lovely she looks. Talked to her on the phone between flights, had her giggling her happy giggle I used to hear all the time. Flight delays got me stuck in another town. She called me and woke me up and we talked for a bit, I just let her vent about the day and taking care of son alone. Tried to be supportive etc, she hung up smiling.

Then called her when I arrived at her request, again, hung up smiling, and again, at her request, called her before bed and she told me all about the day and vented some. Drew some feelings out of her.

She is very nervous about job interview on Wednesday. A job or SOMETHING outside the house and our children is something I DO want for her and have always been supportive of her doing something with herself, so while she currently is more motivated to get a job so she can fund leaving, I still want to support her getting one since its something I would have supported anyway.

Does this make sense?

Regardless, I have been going with my gut and being supportive of the things that I would have supported prior to any of this stuff.

She appreciated the support and encouragement, told her have a good night, hope she sleeps well, and she said "I hope you sleep well, too" which seems lame to write out, but she hasnt said anything like that in a while. So I liked it.

So, maybe you guys are right, and the smile I hear in her voice and saw on her face before I left is only cuz she cant wait to feel OM all over her, or maybe Plan A behavior is working a little bit.

I dont know, it seems like when she is distracted and forgets to stay mad that she starts to smile and be happy when I do nice things. Its only when something somehow reminds her "oh yeah, I am supposed to hate him" that she gets cold again.

K, I am working on the letter for exposure. Generic one that I will personalize for many of the people, but basic generic template. Will post it here in a bit for review.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/26/10 05:17 AM
Just typed the whole thing... lost it...

/sigh

Here we go again.
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/26/10 05:44 AM
faint
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/26/10 05:46 AM
This is a DRAFT. It is obviously way too long. I just included everything to start. Please feel free to edit it in any way. I would love to see all criticisms, feedback and suggestions. Thank you in advance!

To family/friend,

I have not been very good about staying in touch, and I am sorry it has to be about this.

W and I are having serious problems. For the past few years, I have not been a very good husband. I have been emotionally absent and negligent in the care of my wife. I have not honored my vows to love and cherish her every day.

Things came to a head in late September '09 when W confronted me and stated she was not happy and that if things did not improve she would leave. We had a long talk, and I told her I wanted her to be happy, but was unsure what to do. I suggested we go to counseling. She agreed to this, but rather than start immediately, we finally agreed to wait until after we moved to NC and got settled in to the house we planned to purchase. She told me I would have 2 years to shape up.

To save money during the move, we came down to NC and planned to stay with a friend in his 3 bedroom house until we could get our own place. It was W and I with Son in 1 bedroom, Owner and GF in another, and a man named OM in the third. In retrospect, I think I should have just rented us our own place, because it was a very stressful living arrangement with so many people and a 1 yr old living and sleepign in our room. However, it always seemed like it would be only "a couple more weeks," till something always came up and it eventually turned into about 5 months.

During this time, rather than wait till we got our place or started counseling I began to take steps to work on myself. W brought to my attention how my excessive time playing video games meant ignoring her and Son. I stopped playing video games. I started trying to do better at showing appreciation and recognition. We had some good times for W's birthday and Anniversary.

However, during free time W enjoyed watching TV. OM also enjoyed this leisure activity, and they began to spend time together. At first I was very happy to see her smile and glad that she had a friend, but I now realize that I was wrong, and that I should have been taking steps to make her smile and be her friend. W began to grow more emotionally distant from me, though I thought it was only the continued stress of the living arrangements, and didnt consider it could be anything else.

We finally closed on our house on Mar 31. We moved in that day. I was so happy that now we could finally "settle in" and get on track to the recovery we had talked about. However, approximately 1 week after moving in, W stated she was done. She planned to seek a divorce and move out as soon as she could get her feet under her. That she was done, her mind was made up and nothing would change it. She agreed to still go to counseling so that she could say she did it, and to try to keep a friendship so the seperation could be amicable.

I was devestated. I didnt know what to do. I was very emotionally and did not respond very well. Since then, strides in my personal growth have allowed to me handle myself in a much more appropriate manner. I continue to work on myself as a person, husband, and father, and continue to work on my part in this marraige. I have not given up.

I was doing a cursory check of our online phone bill when I discovered you can input a name after clicking on a number, and it would automatically switch every instance of the number to the name. I did this to 3 or 4 numbers on Ws phone and was concerned when OMs number changed 3/4's of the page to his name. I continued to investigate and the more I found the more I dug.

I found that from Mar 4th to Apr 3rd, W spent 18 hours on the phone with OM. From Apr 4th to May 3rd, there was 58 hours. In comparison, time spent with anyone other than OM during Apr 4th to May 3rd totaled less than 4 hours combined. From May 4th to the 17th was another 15 hours.

W has also stated she plans to seek custody of son, and to get her own place and have OM as a roommate. She has stated she is doing this for herself and for our son since Son deserves to see her happy.

I wish I had never let it get this far. No matter how "amicable" a seperation could be, it WILL cause Son pain. There is no way around it, and multitudes of studies confirm that fact.

I know that I am willing and able to do whatever it takes to make this marraige work. I know that regardless of what happens, I will be a better person for learning to take responsibilty for my actions, learn to be a more open and compassionate person and stand up for what I believe in. I know that I want to teach my son what commitment means, teach him how adults resolve differences, and show him how 2 people can demonstrate and build a lasting loving relationship.

Regardless what happens, this is going to be a tremendously difficult time for W. She is going to need lots of love and support. I realize that if we all lived near eachother and were in regular contact, you would probably already have noticed something was wrong, and been able to offer your love, perspective, advice, and support. Since that is not the case, I am writing this to you to inform you and offer you that chance.

If you want to ask me any questions, my number is XXXXX, my email addresses are YYYYYY and ZZZZZZZ.

W's number is AAAAAAAAAA, and email addresses are BBBBB and CCCCCCCC.

Our address is MMMMMMMMM, and we are also both on Myspace and Facebook.

Thank you for your love and support,

Sincerely,
BTinTrouble
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/26/10 10:46 AM
"I still dont believe there is a PA, just for the record, so that if there is and I have to come on here and tell you guys, you can wag your fingers and "We told you so...""

You are a fool not to get a VAR. Your WW will deny to her grave that there was an affair. Your WW will get your son most likely with you paying CS. Your WW will move the OM into your house an bed in front of your son.

A cheater and lier will get to be the father figure and mentor your son.Your son will be taught it's all about "me" and his actions will have no consequences.

Edit to add that WW will be using the money that you pay for CS to support the OM.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/26/10 10:51 AM
BT,

Heaven's NO! WAY too long! Also you do not dilute it by going into your shortcomings to justify her actions, people know there is no such thing as a perfect H.

Short and sweet. My wife XXX is having an affair with OM. It is ruining our marriage. I am doing everything i can to save my marriage and I could use any help and advice you can give me.

Mel has a letter on a post i saw that was good, addressed to friends of skankhola or something, perhaps she will see this and paste it here.

That letter is a serious no-go, far too long and too much info. I know you are trying and it would feel good to express some of your true feelings, but do that here. This is an exposure letter to shine the light of day on the affair and ask for help.

SWW

PS I am glad you are seeing that an EA is just as destructive and that you really have enough evidence already. For the record I believe WW was so nice because she was in contact with the OM and wants to keep you unsuspecting, but that's my opnion.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/26/10 12:14 PM
BT,

I totally agree with SWW. I too am very glad that you are seeing this EA for what it is which is a destructive force on your marriage.

The letter is way too long and way too much on you. Yes you have done things wrong but no matter what it was HER choice to get involved with this OM. And her involvement with him is ruining your marriage.

For the record i know that we BSs have been hurt by our WSs betrayal and we may have a slightly skewed point of view. However as much as i hate to say this i also think that her being nice and getting her hair done was for keeping you in the dark about OM.

And i promise we will not say i told you so if you do find out it has went further.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/26/10 01:25 PM
You guys can say I told you so if it gets to that, its not like it will make it hurt any more or less since it would be true.

Also, TheRoad... there IS in fact a VAR in my house while I am gone right now. So I hope at least in that respect I am not a fool. Thank you for reinforcing the 2x4 of how this could go and what it might mean to my son. It is a good reminder for why this is so important beyond just WW and I.

Ok, too long, knew that. Hmmm, need to find one of the shorter ones.

Ok, exposure, what kind of info should I keep in there?

Phone record stuff?
Dates?
The living arrangement from Dec-Mar that led to the EA?

You are saying I should throw out a lot of the "me" stuff that created the vulnerable enviroment.

I understand I dont need to go this detailed, I understand that I can answer questions if the friends / family want more info, they can ask. But I REALLY dont want this to turn into a W bashing letter where she is the one who is all bad. This decision she has made I believe is all bad, for what it does to her, me and our son. But I dont think she is a terrible person. I believe she is making a mistake, and in her fog, is able to deny it. I also know that I hold some responsibility for creating an enviroment where she had needs unmet for so long.

I do not in any way take responsibility for her decision.

So how to state that short and sweet.

Thanks for the feedback, I will think about this some more, keep 2x4ing me and offering advice, I really appreciate it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/26/10 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
[W and I are having serious problems. For the past few years, I have not been a very good husband. I have been emotionally absent and negligent in the care of my wife. I have not honored my vows to love and cherish her every day.

HOLY CRAP!! Nonononono.... BT, this will not work. This is way too much information and it muddies the waters. Nor do they need to know what kind of husband you were; it is not relevant to the issue.

Have you got the OMW's information?? Because you need to expose to her NOW. That exposure, along with your DEMAND that your wife end her affair might very well kill this affair. But if you don't make her your first target, you are just fiddling around the edges.

Exposure should be done in a phone call [except facebook exposures of course] and goes like this :

Dear friend, My wife, Sally, is having an affair with Joe Scumbag. Their affair started around XX-2010 and has been confirmed with hours of phone conversations and other evidence. She has asked for a divorce so she and my son can get an apartment with this married man.

I am horrified that my son has been dragged into this affair and upset that he has been exposed to Joe.

I am trying to save my marriage for myself and my baby son and ask that you use your influence to persuade her to end her affair. I am asking for your support and advice in saving my marriage.

Thank you
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/26/10 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
[W has also stated she plans to seek custody of son, and to get her own place and have OM as a roommate. She has stated she is doing this for herself and for our son since Son deserves to see her happy.

faint

BT, I am once again speechless and my blood pressure is soaring. She has admitted her goal is to move in with the OM yet you continue to condone her contact AND to allow your child around this man who wants to replace you?

I am too angry for words. mad
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 05/26/10 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Thanks LorG and others.

I have come to the point (THANKS SO MUCH MARKOS!!)

You're welcome; I'm glad I could be of help. smile
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/26/10 11:27 PM
Mel, I am an idiot quite often. I will make connections at a speed and depth that leaves people out of sight behind me, then be stopped cold by an inability to grasp something obvious and simple, especially when it deals with people. Not sure why.

I am sorry for the stress I must be putting you through, and I am appreciative of the amount you must really care for it to affect you like this.

I DO NOT condone her conduct anymore, without reservations.

On contact with OM. In the past (maybe a month and a half ago?) he asked if I minded them being friends. At the time, I kind of did mind, but I thought it was a leftover of me being a controlling and jealous husband, so I said, "no, I dont mind." Now I feel like, since I gave him the "OK" to basically date my wife and fill her ENs, I should at least let him know that I am in fact not ok with this anymore.

Yes or no?

Regardless, I will not be condoning any contact with him and my family.

Second, I cannot find OMW on the internet. When I return from this trip I will surreptitiously do some poking around work to see if there is any sort of information laying around, like maybe what town they live in, anything to narrow the search some. Until then, I dont know how to contact OMW.

Mel, is that really all I need for exposure? Seems so simple and incomplete, but then, the samples on that Thread to help Newly Betrayed Posters (http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2379879&page=3) are pretty short too. Ok, will rewrite it tonight again.

Mel you mentioned it being a phone call.

I cant call her father, he has no phone. I can call her mother and some family and friends. W also has many Facebook friends I can facebook letter to. However, OM has no facebook or social network site activity. I dont really have a way to contact his friends or family at this time.

For family and friends, I had thought to mail a letter since it is a physical thing, demonstrates how much it really matters, and can be held in the hand and read over and over.

Last thing, we have an MC appointment on Tues after Mem day (when she gets back from camping). She is getting upset with MC because he is saying things that hint that what we are going through (not counting the EA which he doesnt know about) isnt really a big deal and that we could totally work it out. I am wondering if she gets upset with this MC if I could then get her to agree to talk with SH.

Should I wait on exposure for this possibility, or should I just go ahead and do it this weekend after checking the VAR?

Appreciating any and all thoughts. Thanks so much you guys.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/26/10 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Should I wait on exposure for this possibility, or should I just go ahead and do it this weekend after checking the VAR?

Appreciating any and all thoughts. Thanks so much you guys.

Dude,

Get your complete list together and expose now! The marriage counselor gig is a sham to lull you to sleep!

She is divorcing you and moving the OM to be your kid's DAD!

Honestly.

SWW
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/26/10 11:40 PM
Seriously,

Not to be a broken record, but if you don't get off the stick here, you are not gonna have a family and OM is going to be banging your WW and teaching your son about morals.

Are you still cleaning off those pelicans? Get busy!

SWW
Posted By: MaiMai Re: My thread - 05/26/10 11:43 PM
BT..you are full of excuses.

Why don't you just rent OM and your wife a room so they can bump ugly?

Maybe you can hold their clothes for them?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/26/10 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
On contact with OM. In the past (maybe a month and a half ago?) he asked if I minded them being friends. At the time, I kind of did mind, but I thought it was a leftover of me being a controlling and jealous husband, so I said, "no, I dont mind." Now I feel like, since I gave him the "OK" to basically date my wife and fill her ENs, I should at least let him know that I am in fact not ok with this anymore.

Yes, I would revisit this immediately and tell him that he is to never ever contact your wife again or "there will be serious consequences." Don't threaten to kick his [censored], but allude to this fact.

Tell him his AFFAIR is inappropriate and that if he comes to your home again, that you will call the police and file a restraining order against him. This is best said in person, but a phone call will suffice. If you visit him in person, I would leave your ammuntion in the car but make sure your holster and pistol are in plain sight.

Also mention to him that there is no future with your wife because he will be eternally hated by the in-laws and by your son.

Yes or no?


Quote
Second, I cannot find OMW on the internet. When I return from this trip I will surreptitiously do some poking around work to see if there is any sort of information laying around, like maybe what town they live in, anything to narrow the search some. Until then, I dont know how to contact OMW.

Ok, this is way too important to leave to chance. Can you hire a PI? It might only cost you $300 to get her name and phone # but you HAVE to get it, BT. This might be the magic bullet for your marriage. You cannot afford to not find her.

Quote
Mel, is that really all I need for exposure? Seems so simple and incomplete, but then, the samples on that Thread to help Newly Betrayed Posters (http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2379879&page=3) are pretty short too. Ok, will rewrite it tonight again.

You need to be short, sweet and to the point. The more words you use, the more you muddy the waters. Your post, as written, conveys doubt and confusion.

Quote
I cant call her father, he has no phone. I can call her mother and some family and friends. W also has many Facebook friends I can facebook letter to. However, OM has no facebook or social network site activity. I dont really have a way to contact his friends or family at this time.

Then only call a few of the CLOSEST contacts and email the rest of them.

And you do need to get names and phone #s of the OMs wife and his parents and perhaps sibs.


Quote
Last thing, we have an MC appointment on Tues after Mem day (when she gets back from camping). She is getting upset with MC because he is saying things that hint that what we are going through (not counting the EA which he doesnt know about) isnt really a big deal and that we could totally work it out. I am wondering if she gets upset with this MC if I could then get her to agree to talk with SH.

I would lose this counselor entirely and go all out with Steve Harley. He is not going to jack around here, BT. If you counsel with him alone, he will tell you what to say to get her on the phone. Once he gets her on the phone, he is going to do a major sell job on the marriage.


Quote
Should I wait on exposure for this possibility, or should I just go ahead and do it this weekend after checking the VAR?

I think you should check the VAR and then expose no matter what. If there is something on your VAR it will just bolster your case. BUT, you have enough to run with now.

The key thing is to get the goods on the OM. Have you run his name in intelius.com or pipl.com?

Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/27/10 12:22 AM
Agreed - too long. But I think I do get why you want to say all of it the way you do. This letter is just not the right vehicle for it all.

Per your statement/request that you do not want it to be a wife bashing letter (and if done with the right intent that has been given to you in the thread, is not that), if you need to add something on yourself, you could consider a single statement (not paragraphs) on your contribution to the problem such as: I have made mistakes and have not been the husband I could have been to my W. But I am now committed to do all I can to save my marriage with W and be the parents to Son that I know we can be.

Again, keep it short.

And as I am relearning, with advice, take what you want and leave the rest. You get a lot of good advice from posters on your thread.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/27/10 12:28 AM
In addition to keeping it short, sweet and FOCUSED, it is important to remember the purpose of the letter. It is not about what kind of husband you were or weren't; but about her affair. It is exposure of an affair. The kind of husband you are has no more relevance to her affair than the weather in Dimmit, Texas.
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/27/10 12:34 AM
And BT, on the topic of W taking OM as a roommate, this is not a good development. I don't believe I saw that info in previous posts.

But for some reason, I am guessing from the tone in your letter that you may have known this tidbit of info for a while but have not shared it on MB until now. I could be wrong, maybe she shared it with you just today, but that is my gut.

If so, consider why you might not have shared that piece. It created quite a reaction from others on your thread. As it should have. Were you fearful of what sharing it might have caused other posters to say...which they did say anyways?

Without all the pieces to your story, it is hard to help. But this is a good place to get your learning on.

Get the info on the VAR. If nothing, still send the letters and make calls. And if she still wants to move in with OM...game on.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/27/10 04:30 AM
I am nearly positive I mentioned the part of her saying she wanted her and OM to be roommates sometime prior. I got told it about 2 or 3 weeks ago.

I was not intentionally hiding it, I havent searched yet to see if I did in fact neglect to post it. If I didnt, it was not intentional.

Ok, I get it on the exposure, and I definately get it that I am going to do it no matter what, that the VAR just might give me more, but that I dont in fact need more. I will have it sent out before she gets back.

I will also be talking to OM the day I send it out. I will probably call him and ask him to come to my house and meet him in the driveway. I get the idea's about the pistol visable etc. I fully intend to be calm, concise, and most of all CLEAR in my statement. I want to clarify completely my stance and his choices, how they will affect my family, and what the repercussions will be. I dont need to threaten him at all, nor is he worth any angry outbursts. I dont intend to kill him or anything.

Ok, Mel, the idea about this MC and dumping him and calling SH is something I have already been considering. This MC isnt really doing much. Its neat that he is free (to us at least) and all, but its still costing us time, and that is not very neat. W needs exposure so that she can get SEVERAL lights on her fantasy world to maybe open her eyes to what it really is.

Her father is the only person who I HAVE to send a letter to as he has no phone or internet at this time. I plan to send him a check with the request that he use the money to activate some sort of phone, as his daughter needs him to be available.

Checking intelius and pipl now for OM info. Might have a hit.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/27/10 12:38 PM
BT, i do not think you did mention your WW (sorry but she definitely is at least wayward thinking) wanting to room with the OM until your letter post and i was hoping that it was not the case. And i do not remeber reading about camping this weekend either but maybe i missed it.

BT if you do not do something RIGHT NOW, do not even wait until you listen to the VAR your wife is going to be camping this weekend WITH YOUR SON AND THE OM and you can bet your sweet booty on that.

I agree with MaiMai, why don't you just rent them a room yourself.

Find out who the OMW is somehow today if possible!!!!!!!!

Posted By: MaiMai Re: My thread - 05/27/10 12:53 PM
I could never understand how a man, and I use that term lightly, could let their child be exposed to a stranger, while the person expected to protect them, the WS, is in no mental position to make good decisions.

Do you know BT that some OM aren't really interested in the married women, but really her children?

If you allow your child to go 'camping' without you to protect him, you are no father.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/27/10 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
II will also be talking to OM the day I send it out. I will probably call him and ask him to come to my house and meet him in the driveway. I get the idea's about the pistol visable etc. I fully intend to be calm, concise, and most of all CLEAR in my statement. I want to clarify completely my stance and his choices, how they will affect my family, and what the repercussions will be. I dont need to threaten him at all, nor is he worth any angry outbursts. I dont intend to kill him or anything.

BT, lets talk about this. The OM needs to be told what his "choices" are: if he doesn't leave your family alone then HELL IS COMING. Tell him he is to never ever contact your wife again or set foot on your property. Period. Tell him you are aware this is an affair [don't ASK, just tell him you know] and that if this comes to divorce, he will named as grounds and called into court to give testimony under oath about his adultery.

I need you to CALL his wife immediately after this meeting, so please do what you have to do to find her. You must find her, BT.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/27/10 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok, I get it on the exposure, and I definately get it that I am going to do it no matter what, that the VAR just might give me more, but that I dont in fact need more. I will also be talking to OM the day I send it out. I will probably call him and ask him to come to my house and meet him in the driveway.

Not a good idea. You do not want him to set foot on your property ever again. Why would you play the supplicant here by "asking him a favor" to come over to your house? A phone call is less dangerous and will suffice if you are firm enough.


He is never to contact your wife again. If he does, like Mel says, hell is coming. You will fight him tooth and nail for your marriage and your family.

Expose now in a nuclear fashion to everyone BT. I still don't understand why you are on travel right now, this is a family emergency. If your son had to go to the hospital you could have gotten out of this trip. Your marriage, wife and son are totally at risk of destruction and you are too scared to ask to be left off this travel. You need to get your rear end home!

SWW
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/27/10 02:13 PM
Got a name of OMs wife, nearly positive, but 2 numbers paid for on interwebs did not work. Going away from a computer after this till I get home (leaving hotel, work day at conference, then flight home).

I am watching my son this weekend, WW is not taking him anywhere.

May be able to get OMWs number tomorrow? How fast does a PI take? I plan to talk to OM this weekend, again, at my house, so if he shows up, that would preclude his being in the woods with my wife. Also, she is going with her cousin, who I have checked on facebook, and will be exposing too as well.

I have to take off from here, will be away from computers till saturday noonish. Hopefully have progress then.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/27/10 02:16 PM
SWW - I work with the guy, its not like I wont ever see him. I am not scared of him, so I dont understand why I couldnt do this in person.

Its not asking him a favor, if he doesnt watn to come, I can do it over the phone. I dont really care, I just feel like its decent to do stuff like this face to face.

Hmmm, SWW you are probably right about this trip. Every day that I continue to think about this I begin to realize more and more what a big deal it is.

Call me slow... I dont know.

But I am flying out today. It just takes 16 hours to get back...
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/27/10 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
SWW - I work with the guy, its not like I wont ever see him. I am not scared of him, so I dont understand why I couldnt do this in person.

Hmmm, SWW you are probably right about this trip. Every day that I continue to think about this I begin to realize more and more what a big deal it is.

But I am flying out today. It just takes 16 hours to get back...

Good, tell him at work and expose there too. Good, get home fast.

Oh and you don't need to be decent about anything. You owe him nothing. Would you be considering the decent thing to do if someone kidnapped your son? Think, I really need to talk to him face to face, its the decent thing to do. No.

SWW
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/27/10 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Got a name of OMs wife, nearly positive, but 2 numbers paid for on interwebs did not work. Going away from a computer after this till I get home (leaving hotel, work day at conference, then flight home).

I am watching my son this weekend, WW is not taking him anywhere.

May be able to get OMWs number tomorrow? How fast does a PI take? I plan to talk to OM this weekend, again, at my house, so if he shows up, that would preclude his being in the woods with my wife. Also, she is going with her cousin, who I have checked on facebook, and will be exposing too as well.

I have to take off from here, will be away from computers till saturday noonish. Hopefully have progress then.

BT she is telling you she is going with her cousin. My brother's exWW took a whole weeks vacation in Virginia Beach, supposedly with her cousin. Then my brother happened to see her cousin at the store and he found out she was really there with her OM and the cousin helped out.

Please do this NOW!!! DO NOT LET THEM GO ON THIS TRIP!!!

I am glad you are going home today too!!!

Don't let her gaslight you either!!!!
Posted By: sushi Re: My thread - 05/27/10 03:24 PM
Hi, I've been reading this thread and first posting now. BT mentioned the man/roommate situation on May 2, here:

#2366336 - 05/02/10 01:58 PM

To find the OM wife, have you tried zabasearch dot com, or spokeo dot com? Public records might give you an address, and if she's been living there awhile, maybe a phone number.

Good luck.

Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/27/10 04:22 PM
BT - UR Right, it was mentioned in the 5-2 post. My bad. Thanks Sushi!

I guess I didn't realize for myself that she was serious or it was moving to that. For some reason I understood it more as a passing comment, not a real plan of action. I apologize, had I understood that differently, I would have addressed it more seriously.

I guess for me, as a woman, with young kids, if I needed to leave my house and needed a roommate, no matter how desperate I was for a place, I would not choose to move in with a male "friend". I have male friends, and I do not want them to ever be anything more than that. I know my own weaknesses, and that scenario would be a poor choice of boundaries for me, and I think I can say for anyone in any M/separation.

It shows very poor judgment on her part as the mother of your son. We need to do what is in the best interest of our children, even when that may not be the easiest choice for ourselves. Confusing your son and introducing him to another male is so hurtful and damaging to his development and attachment.

If she ultimately decides to move in with OM, I would fight to my death to keep Son from spending time with W at her home with OM. She can see Son at your (son's) home not with OM. I would then do all I could to bring a legal wedge between OM and W for the sake of Son. Our state has none of those laws but yours might. And if they do, you need to be strong enough to use them.

Divorce reseach suggests that the youngest kids do best when they stay/sleep in their primary home and spend time with other parent in that same environment. That can't always work but that is both in the best interest of your SOn, not to mention any hope of saving your M.

Have a safe flight. My hope for you is that the VAR gives you whatever information you need to confidently to make a move.

Question to other posters - When BT speaks to OM, in person or on phone, would it be worthwhile to use VAR in that exchange (now that he owns one)? Can't hurt I would think and if nothing gained or BT says things he shouldn't, he can delete? But if OM says things W won't admit, worth having? Not sure. Just a thought.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 02:14 PM
BT update?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 04:38 PM
k, will try those sites for OMWs number. Kinda ticked I payed for 2 numbers but neither worked, but it was only a couple bucks. Considering I sent letter to Ws Dad w/ check for a hundred with the exposure and asking him for the sake of his daughter and grandson, that he PLEASE get a phone and call, a few bucks is nothing.

Update:

Got hom about 20 mins ago, wife has left for camping trip. All packed up, its verified on Facebook between her cousin and posts from their friends, all going camping.

You guys may be right, probably are, but shes gone now. Oops maybe? I like the idea of this weekend, with free weekend minutes to expose.

When I landed, I texted her. She was there to pick me up with son who was sleeping. I had a huge smile to see her, and she started a big smile when she saw me. We had a nice talk on the way home about what I missed this week, all kinds of stuff with son and her. She has a migraine. I mentioned that I had read this week that tension in shoulders can make headaches worse.

We got to the house, she briefed me on what food was where, where Sons food was etc. I got a pillow and told her to sit down on the chair and gave her a shoulder massage. She got very relaxed, said thank you that feels so good.

When she was ready to leave she gave me a "wife" hug, and said she missed me. Not the friend hugs she has been giving me.

I looked in her eyes, and told her that the last 2 weeks for me have been amazing. That I have been happier and felt more alive than ever before in my life and its because of the changes I am making and the things I am learning. But that as happy as I have been, its a candle to the happiness and love I felt when I saw her again at the airport.

I told her I will always love her and that I hope she can believe that always, no matter what happens.

She said she would try to call and take pictures. Then we tricked son and she left.

Not bad, even if all you guys tell me its gaslighting, it felt nice.

Ok, now to check the VAR, then to get OMWs number, then I have a long weekend of phone calls and facebook messages...

the gist of the "homecoming" is that I think I am Plan A'ing very well. I am much more observant than even before we got married, noticing things to do to help and doing them, I am also being very appreciative and affectionate via verbal compliments and such. I have not violated her boundaries or tried to make her feel uncomfortable. No AO's, DJs, or SDs, and the only IB I been doign is the groudn work to attack this affair and the exposure this weekend.

K, I am going to go check the VAR now... will update soon.

Thanks everyone for your support.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 04:58 PM
omfg

omfg
omfg

omfgomfgomfgomfgomfgomfomgomfomgofmogmofmogm

What the hell do I do now...

My heart rate is going so fast...

VAR has positive proof.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:05 PM
I am not sure I recognize the voice, might not be OM...

How do I go about verifying that?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:08 PM
Ok, I need to be a father right now. Calling Sh for an appointment, then I am going to try not to think about it too much...

Should I kick her out of the house? I can Plan A for a while once I calm down.

Is hidden VAR evidence from my own house admissable in court?

Should I get a lawyer?
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:09 PM
What did it say? Let's start with that.
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:15 PM
BT - I am so very sorry for what you have found. I am however happy you got something now that you can't ignore so that you can feel solid about moving forward. Now you have what you need to put a plan into action.

No more waiting. No more fears.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:20 PM
BT I am sorry but please take a couple of deep breaths and let us know what you heard and we can better advise you on what to do next? But please just take a couple of deep breaths.

You can do this!!!!
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:42 PM
typing
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:47 PM
ok...

VAR only recorded about 6 minutes. It only triggered when the bed was moving...

guess which 6 minutes it caught? It would trigger with the bed moving and record for a while.

It is soul shattering.

There are 7 DISTINCT times when I hear A mans voice or grunts or whatever, and 2 more when I am not sure, and 1 of those instances she asks him to turn the light off, showing that its not the TV since she was talking TO someone.

So yeas, evidence.

I called her friend in CA, exposed, and asked her friend to let her dad know to get a phone right now, and tell him I sent him a check to pay for it that should get there early next week.

I can not even closely positively identify OM as the Mans voice, so I am kinda confused there. I am sure there is a way to get a sample of his voice and have a machine positively match them, but I dont know how to do that and its memorial day weekend. I am considering asking him point blank, since I kinda dont think its him, oddly enough, and ask him if he's willing to provide a voice sample. But I dont know.

Appointment with Jen Harley set up for Tuesday evening, will try get WW (god it hurts to type that... godamnit) to talk too.

When do I confront WW? Should I call her now? I already sent the audio file to my dad and an aunt, so she cant make me get rid of it or recover it.

I was planning to expose this weekend anyway, so I think I will ocntinue to do that.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:50 PM
Its almost 2 pm here, should I call a Lawyer to secure my position now?

I dont want to D, but I dont want this to get away from me because of denial again...

She made this choice not me...
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:50 PM
planning to call the radio show this afternoon too, per Elle's suggestion when I made the appointment with Jen

Also, going to continue exposing right now since I planned to do it anyway.
Posted By: chrisner Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:51 PM
Well that's a smoking gun alright.


Quote
It is soul shattering.


Sorry BT.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:52 PM
Page 14 and NOW you believe us?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:52 PM
well, not sure...

I need some advice on how to handle WW right now, should i continue exposing and have her hear that I know from someone else? or should I call her first?

What do I do with suspected OM? The VAR Man doesnt really sound like him the few words he says. So I am not sure...

omg... ouch, it hurts...

Keeping my heart rate around 100 (which is good, it was about 140 while listening to the thing for the first time, normal resting rate is about 70 bpm)
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:53 PM
Mark, I deserve that. I know I do.

It still hurts.

Just letting you know...
Posted By: chrisner Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:53 PM
Your last encounter with her today was a pretty good way to end Plan A and begin Plan B.

Pack her up.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:55 PM
But Chrisner...

Plan B is not a "punishment," its to protect MY love bank.

I am good on LB$ inventory. I still want her. I can Plan A for a while yet. I dont think that would be using Plan B as its intended.

Now maybe Plan B to protect my SON from her? IDK.

Thoughts?
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
ok...

VAR only recorded about 6 minutes. It only triggered when the bed was moving...

guess which 6 minutes it caught? It would trigger with the bed moving and record for a while.

It is soul shattering.

There are 7 DISTINCT times when I hear A mans voice or grunts or whatever, and 2 more when I am not sure, and 1 of those instances she asks him to turn the light off, showing that its not the TV since she was talking TO someone.

So yeas, evidence.
I was planning to expose this weekend anyway, so I think I will ocntinue to do that.

Yes, soul shattering is a good way to put it. BT, i know you won�t believe this right now, but it IS going to be ok. Right now your only job is to try to breathe. You know now. Keep calm even though you want to vomit, and if you do that�s ok too, we�ve all done it.

I remember the same feeling when my WW swore to me it was all over and then I found used condom packets in the bedroom. It is horrible.

Time to breathe and plan. Exposure now is a must and you have all you need. It is the OM you thought it was, don�t worry about computer matching voices and all. Your gut is telling you what you need to know.

Get your exposure letter together and post it. It is actually good she is away this weekend, you can start to process this and do your nuclear exposure and get our advice for dealing with her incredible anger when she finds out and is on her way home.

Keep posting, it�s gonna be ok. Every single one of us has made it through this alive.

SWW
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:57 PM
This aint over by a long shot! It is only getting started, but now you have the weapons, the intel and the plan to fight!!!

No plan B now, expose, plan A, reverse babble, it is all coming together just like we said it would.

SWW
Posted By: chrisner Re: My thread - 05/28/10 05:58 PM
My VAR recording put a 25mm round right through the old love bucket. There was nothing left.

But if you can keep going after that it's your choice.

Finish your exposure to all and then call her back home.
Posted By: NewPetals Re: My thread - 05/28/10 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
ok...

VAR only recorded about 6 minutes. It only triggered when the bed was moving...

guess which 6 minutes it caught? It would trigger with the bed moving and record for a while.

It is soul shattering.

There are 7 DISTINCT times when I hear A mans voice or grunts or whatever, and 2 more when I am not sure, and 1 of those instances she asks him to turn the light off, showing that its not the TV since she was talking TO someone.

So yeas, evidence.
I was planning to expose this weekend anyway, so I think I will ocntinue to do that.


BT, so sorry to read this latest development. I know what it was like seeing PICTURES of them together - I can only imagine what it would be like hearing it.

Are you sure you can Plan A for a while? My advice would be - if you think you can, go ahead, but in the meantime get everything ready for a very quick and swift Plan B. Trust me. Your mind can change in a second....you've read my thread so you know how fast it happened for me.

Get going with exposure. It'll be okay. {{{BT}}}
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 06:09 PM
BT listen to SWW, NUCLEAR EXPOSURE and post to get advice on dealing with her anger and fog bable when she finds out.

She is going to be angry but she will get over it. And keep breathing, it will be okay......
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/28/10 06:12 PM
BT,

I have to go to the airport to pick up my son. I will be back later. I posted a thread asking some of the vets to check in on you.

Keep breathing dude!

It's time for us all to help you put up the fight you need to put up to save your M.

I told you before, it is going to be alright!

SWW
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 06:18 PM
K, continueing on with Exposure. Calling the Radio Show in 42 minutes, will maybe get more info there.

NP, good point. Yes I am sure I can Plan A for a while, but you are also right. I will start looking up Day Care for my son and consider a lawyer so I can evict her if needed.
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 05/28/10 06:23 PM
BT, I am so sorry.

Remember, BT, she's been wayward for awhile. It was wayward for her to date outside of your marriage.

I know this makes it more tragic, though, and I am so sorry you and your son are having to go through this.
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 05/28/10 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
K, continueing on with Exposure. Calling the Radio Show in 42 minutes, will maybe get more info there.

NP, good point. Yes I am sure I can Plan A for a while, but you are also right. I will start looking up Day Care for my son and consider a lawyer so I can evict her if needed.

What you need to do is start making Plan B preparations immediately, but don't pull that trigger until you've done a good Plan A, and definitely don't pull that trigger (the Plan B trigger) until you've talked to Steve Harley.

The carrot of Plan A, the stick of Plan A, and the preparations for being able to start Plan B at a moment's notice.

You're going to have a lot of questions for what all that entails. Take it as slow as you need to to get good answers to your questions and make a good plan.

You can do this.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 06:36 PM
BT you will be okay just keep breathing and keep exposing, the more the better.

Anyone that will HELP you fight for your marriage, if you do not think they will help don't bother telling them.

And find the OMW NOW and expose to her!
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 05/28/10 06:37 PM
I'll be listening for you on the radio show.
Posted By: chrisner Re: My thread - 05/28/10 06:41 PM
Where was your 15 month old son during the recording?
Posted By: fade Re: My thread - 05/28/10 06:46 PM
So sorry to see this BT,

**I AM NOT A LAWYER***
I just wanted to note that since you are in NC, you have some extra legal tools at your disposal that most people in these situations dont have access to, including filing with fault under adultery, 'alienation of affection' and 'divorce from bed and board'. Im not sure you are aware of these but it might be important to bear them in mind as you proceed.

Even if you dont want or intend to divorce her, it might be good for her (and OM) to know that you have the power to turn her out of the home with no immediate access to joint money or assets, you will never pay her any alimony, she may have to immediately demonstate the ability to house and support your son or else you could get full temporary custody, her adultery may be considered when assessing permanent custody, and you can sue the OM for millions of dollars and possibly get a RO against him being around your son. All of this can put you in a pretty significant position of power over your situation, which is a luxury I dont think many BSs have.

However, all of these require 'proof by greater weight of the evidence' of physical adultery. My understanding is that you have records of high phone use and a difficult to hear VAR. Im afraid that these might not be sufficient proof, especially if its difficult to make out voices. I will not suggest holding off on exposure since that seems to be the first order of business on these forums, but I dont think any other state has such tough laws that you can employ so people on here may not immediately consider these. I really suggest you talk to a lawyer ASAP to figure out what tools you have at your disposal, and whether you require more concrete evidence of adultery. Im just afraid that once you expose, this could get much more difficult to obtain.

Good luck!
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 05/28/10 06:50 PM
I think you should spend enough time prepping a good list of people to expose to before you start. A really good list. Exposure needs to be a tsunami of truth that overwhelms the affair. EVERYBODY important, all in the same day. Don't trickle it out, and don't jump into it real fast if all you're going to do is trickle it out.

Build it up and then go nuclear.

Feel free to get the other parts of your plans in place, as well.

Just my opinion. You'll be getting lots of opinions.

Stay strong. You can fight this.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 06:51 PM
BT your son is with you now right?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 07:18 PM
OMG BT ... I am so SO sorry your in this terrible situation right now. I cant offer any advice but just wanted to let you know that i felt my heart sink and a big ball of stress swell up in my gut when i seen you used a VAR and the outcome it gave you.

You are handling this very well considering the circumstances ... had i been in your shoes i'd prolly be in jail now and someone would be dead.

Be Strong for your son, its time to set off a nuclear explosion of exposure. Hell hath no fury like when a POSOM comes in between a husband and his wife. Use the fuel of your inner rage to SPAM this news to alllll that you can. NOW is the time to fight for your wife and for your son and the happy marriage you long for. You can do this, you CAN restore your marriage and make the affair so ugly to them that they will want to end it.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 07:28 PM
He was probably sleeping or she might have put him in 1hr day care for the sole purpose of doing this.

I dont know for sure, either way is pretty bad...
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 05/28/10 07:32 PM
Listening to you, man!
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 05/28/10 07:33 PM
Is that your son I'm hearing in the background?
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: My thread - 05/28/10 07:33 PM
BT,

I will leave the exposure/details advice to the vets, but if Fade is right about NC marital dissolution law, you may want to secure harder evidence than that 6 min of VAR before you expose and before you let your WW know how you found out.

Those are valuable assets you'd want to lock in before you lose the chance.

No "I told you so" from me, just hang in there....

HBS
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: My thread - 05/28/10 07:37 PM
I'm listening too BT!!!
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/28/10 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
BT,

I have to go to the airport to pick up my son. I will be back later. I posted a thread asking some of the vets to check in on you.

Keep breathing dude!

It's time for us all to help you put up the fight you need to put up to save your M.

I told you before, it is going to be alright!

SWW

BT, I haven't posted to you because you seemed adamant to remain clueless about your WW's infidelity. I'm sorry to see that everyone was right about the affair. At least you know now and can proceed with facts in your pocket. You know, of course, that you must now do a nuclear exposure, right? Have you located his wife yet? Because you know the OM is the guy you've suspected all along - WW's just been easing you into the whole thing by calling him her future 'roommate'. FYI, you can type HIS name into people finder engines, and a lot of the sites will bring up associated names. Her name will come up.

You'll be getting plenty of advice - one thing is essential: you must expose this A to every Tom, [censored] & Harry who is anywhere near having influence over your WW and her AP.

And I certainly hope you have explained to your WW that she isn't taking your son anywhere, yes?
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 05/28/10 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Is that your son I'm hearing in the background?

Let me tell you, BT, I'm glad to hear your little boy playing so happy. Take care of him. Such a sweet little guy doesn't deserve this ... but he's lucky to have you.
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 05/28/10 07:43 PM
When you do expose, don't tell your wife how you know, okay? You don't know how long this will last or how much more evidence you will need, and you don't want her to cut off any of your sources of information.
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/28/10 07:44 PM
Great to hear you on the radio stream. I think I can speak for most posters... WAY TO GO!

hurray
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 07:45 PM
I was listening too ... first time ever listening to the radio on there. I think ill be listening more often. I too heard the little one in the background.

My prayers go out for you!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I can not even closely positively identify OM as the Mans voice, so I am kinda confused there. I am sure there is a way to get a sample of his voice and have a machine positively match them, but I dont know how to do that and its memorial day weekend. I am considering asking him point blank, since I kinda dont think its him, oddly enough, and ask him if he's willing to provide a voice sample. But I dont know.

BT, you need to stop being silly. You KNOW who it was so stop acting like you don't. Don't "ask" a liar to tell the truth, tell him you know.

Quote
When do I confront WW? Should I call her now? I already sent the audio file to my dad and an aunt, so she cant make me get rid of it or recover it.

Expose the affair everywhere. Then call up the OM and let him know you have him on tape doing her in his bed. Tell him he is to never contact your wife again.

YOU NEED TO EXPOSE TO HIS WIFE THIS WEEKEND.


Do not "ask" the adulterers if they are having an affair. TELL THEM you know. When you expose the affair, simply say that "my wife and Joe Scumbag are having an affair and I have the recorded evidence of them having sex in my bed on May 25, 2010. Her plan was to leave me and get an apartment with him."

Don't equivocate or qualify. Say it straight out.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:10 PM
What did Dr Harley say, BT?
Posted By: MrWondering Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:19 PM
just a brief post to say...

If you choose you could tell her you had a nannycam in the bedroom and you fully intend to send the video file to everyone you two know if she doesn't come home NOW.

Don't give away the VAR. Just stick to the story that you've got a video of her and OM having sex and it's hidden in a safe spot for release when you need it. You'll be able to verify you have it by repeating a few of the things you heard on the VAR. Fortunately, a nanny cam...just like the VAR doesn't time stamp the intelligence so neither way will you be forced to come up with an exact time (though try to figure out what's on the Television so you can figure out what show is on and get a time and maybe a date).

Mr. W
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:23 PM
Same thing you did but a lil nicer, and some info on recovery and how Plan A is important, not to attack and AO etc etc

Yes it was my son, we went outside so the dog could occupy him while I was distracted on phone.

Ok, I will continue assuming its OM. Going to block his number on my wifes phone right now.

Talked to a lawyer right now. The judge can apparently decide whatever he/she wants, and the infedelity only comes into play on the alimony thing. Calling another lawyer about the "alienation of affection" thing.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I am not sure I recognize the voice, might not be OM...

How do I go about verifying that?

BT, you're doing it again. Of course it's OM! Are you kidding me?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:25 PM
The OM is with her, isn't he?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:27 PM
kkk, I got it, assuming its OM

Ok

Exposure list

WGrandma (done)
Best friend in CA1 (done)
my dad, my aunt (have copies of the voice thing)
going through the rest of my phone to call all the family i have numbers for

Also, I have been checking her friends on facebook and will be sending a message to approximately 80 of them as well.

OMW I am going to pay a bit more into the search engines to contact her tonight if possible.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:28 PM
OM should be home with his wife this weekend, per my WW.

I suppose when I call her tonight (assuming the internet coughs up her number) I will find out for sure.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
OM should be home with his wife this weekend, per my WW.

I suppose when I call her tonight (assuming the internet coughs up her number) I will find out for sure.

Waywards lie, BT. Don't believe anything that comes out of her mouth. And Do Not tell her that you are exposing this!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
kkk, I got it, assuming its OM

Ok

Exposure list

WGrandma (done)
Best friend in CA1 (done)
my dad, my aunt (have copies of the voice thing)
going through the rest of my phone to call all the family i have numbers for

Also, I have been checking her friends on facebook and will be sending a message to approximately 80 of them as well.

OMW I am going to pay a bit more into the search engines to contact her tonight if possible.

These are all very minor hits. What about her parents?

Frankly, I would devote your time to getting the OMW's phone # and do the most effective exposures first. Can you contact that PI agency I referenced on the spying 102 thread and get the wife's name and his parents?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
OM should be home with his wife this weekend, per my WW.

Where is your wife? Where does this cousin live? I have no doubt they are together. The fact that your W told you this means nothing.
Posted By: now_what Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
just a brief post to say...

If you choose you could tell her you had a nannycam in the bedroom and you fully intend to send the video file to everyone you two know if she doesn't come home NOW.

Don't give away the VAR. Just stick to the story that you've got a video of her and OM having sex and it's hidden in a safe spot for release when you need it. You'll be able to verify you have it by repeating a few of the things you heard on the VAR. Fortunately, a nanny cam...just like the VAR doesn't time stamp the intelligence so neither way will you be forced to come up with an exact time (though try to figure out what's on the Television so you can figure out what show is on and get a time and maybe a date).

Mr. W

Hi BT,
I'm sorry that you had to hear your evidence. I know it hurts as I got mine the same way and I must say that you are handling it far better than I did.

My problem was that I didn't want to give up my source. I was still foggy and wanted to believe WW when she said it was over. I had to continue to use my VAR to verify for myself that the A was still active, and I did. WW still denied the A until it was pointless and to my knowledge still claims she ended the A.

That said, I had to continue Plan A in the face of her lies. I now know that she will continue to lie about the A until there is solid NC for a while.

Keep you chin up, you're doing great. Like G.I. JOE used to say...."And Knowing is Half the Battle."
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
kkk, I got it, assuming its OM

Ok

Exposure list

WGrandma (done)
Best friend in CA1 (done)
my dad, my aunt (have copies of the voice thing)
going through the rest of my phone to call all the family i have numbers for

Also, I have been checking her friends on facebook and will be sending a message to approximately 80 of them as well.

OMW I am going to pay a bit more into the search engines to contact her tonight if possible.

BT, go to www.peoplefinders.com and type in OM's name. This will bring up info on him as well as associated names. You will find his BW's name there, as well as other names. Those other names are people you should expose to as well.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:52 PM
BT of course it is OM and i bet they are together now as well.

You have to find OMW NOW, i suggest the same as maritalbliss.

That or zabasearch and contact all of them.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
kkk, I got it, assuming its OM

Ok

Exposure list

WGrandma (done)
Best friend in CA1 (done)
my dad, my aunt (have copies of the voice thing)
going through the rest of my phone to call all the family i have numbers for

Also, I have been checking her friends on facebook and will be sending a message to approximately 80 of them as well.

OMW I am going to pay a bit more into the search engines to contact her tonight if possible.

These are all very minor hits. What about her parents?

Frankly, I would devote your time to getting the OMW's phone # and do the most effective exposures first. Can you contact that PI agency I referenced on the spying 102 thread and get the wife's name and his parents?

Agree with Mel, you have to find OMW!!!
Posted By: now_what Re: My thread - 05/28/10 08:58 PM
Oh! I forgot to add. When I heard OM (briefly) on my VAR, he sounded different to me than on the phone. My OM sounded a lot younger on the VAR.

Listen to the forum! Where have they been wrong yet?
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: My thread - 05/28/10 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
BT of course it is OM and i bet they are together now as well.

There IS the possibility that it might be another OM. There's no "law" saying that a WW must be involved with only one OM at a time.

I like the nannycam idea, ML. I'd go further and suggest that BT actually purchase one (CASH!) and set it up so he can "show" WW where it was hidden when it supposedly recorded what it did...

So sorry for the turn of events BT. Like you, I refused to believe that my FWW would actually involve herself in an A, even though the evidence at times was clearly pointing to that.
Posted By: chrisner Re: My thread - 05/28/10 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
just a brief post to say...

If you choose you could tell her you had a nannycam in the bedroom and you fully intend to send the video file to everyone you two know if she doesn't come home NOW.

Don't give away the VAR. Just stick to the story that you've got a video of her and OM having sex and it's hidden in a safe spot for release when you need it. You'll be able to verify you have it by repeating a few of the things you heard on the VAR. Fortunately, a nanny cam...just like the VAR doesn't time stamp the intelligence so neither way will you be forced to come up with an exact time (though try to figure out what's on the Television so you can figure out what show is on and get a time and maybe a date).

Mr. W


My VAR did time stamp the recording.

You might want to get the sheets from that bed and store them somewhere. I think you have said you have not slept in it for a while. There may be multiple signs of evidence there.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
BT of course it is OM and i bet they are together now as well.

There IS the possibility that it might be another OM. There's no "law" saying that a WW must be involved with only one OM at a time.

I like the nannycam idea, ML. I'd go further and suggest that BT actually purchase one (CASH!) and set it up so he can "show" WW where it was hidden when it supposedly recorded what it did...

So sorry for the turn of events BT. Like you, I refused to believe that my FWW would actually involve herself in an A, even though the evidence at times was clearly pointing to that.

MiM you are correct, it could be a different OM.

I too like the nanny cam idea.....
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by chrisner
My VAR did time stamp the recording.

You might want to get the sheets from that bed and store them somewhere. I think you have said you have not slept in it for a while. There may be multiple signs of evidence there.

Not a bad idea either......
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/28/10 09:56 PM
I can recommend cameras from www.spycameras.com. We have bought two at different times - optional voice microphone (I can't speak to the legalitieis of the voice but there are laws restricting voice).

Our model = Covert Wi-Fi Digital Wireless Web Camera with recording & remote access - External Pinhole Camera = $289.00
- First web camera with pinhole lens,
- Allow remote viewing & record (motion activated) from anywhere anytime.
- Single IP for multiple camera control.
- No need for 3rd party software. (9Ch camera software included)
- 1 Way audio (optional) = +$50

We bought the WiFi pinhole option from the above site. You can get it already housed in a case (nanny cam style) such as a clock or air purifier. But we bought the raw pinhole camera with microphone and installed it in a plant/decoration. Needs a plug in for the camera but works off of a wireless internet signal AND ALLOWS YOU TO WATCH REMOTELY FROM ANY INTERNET CONNECTION. I am watching my nanny as I type. We had reservations about buying them at first but I for one am SO happy we did and have no regrets. I think HBS would agree now even though he was hesitant at first. And we have told our nanny we were installing it. She was fine with it. Obviously, your WW would not feel the same way.

You do need a wireless router for the wifi to work but being able to access from any computer (even my blackberry phone can get the streaming feed with a special additional app I bought).

I highly recommend. They do ship overnight fast if you buy the option.

It is at least a great site to reseach cameras on if the WiFi is not an option for you.

And don't forget to stop, take some breaths, and enjoy your son some and let him fill your LB a little during this process. It will be good for both of your souls.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/28/10 09:58 PM
Hey BT,

You are getting good advice here. I like the nanny cam idea, but i think i would hold off on contacting your wife with that idea right now, you know what she has been up to. Finish your exposure, i agree with Mel, you are not hitting some important targets, her parents, the wife if you can get it.

Also, her work, and since OM works with you, your work friends and his. Shame the heck out of both of them.

Sorry I couldn't hear you on the radio but sounds like you are doing good for now. I wouldn't worry right now about buying more spy stuff today, you have more evidence than most ever have already. Now is the time for exposure and getting your Plan A stuff together and getting help with dealing with her anger.

She is gonna be so mad, hopefully.

SWW
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 10:29 PM
K, exposed to her mom, grandma, grandpa, uncle, 2/3 best female friends, 4 other female friends, uncle should be emailing me a list of further relatives soon.

Work knows but not who the OM is yet, I am not sure who I trust over there besides one guy who knows and will call me later tonight. He might be looking to get OM fired.

I hear you guys on the spy stuff.

Here is my dilemma. I feel if I get more spy stuff, then I will have to "hope" they do it again so I can catch them. I am not kidding myself that it will just suddenly stop, however, I want no part in its continuing. To me that includes setting traps. I plan to continue making liberal use of the VAR, mostly in her car now because she probably wont do it in our room anymore.

I want to expose. I want to Expose and Plan A and fight for my marriage, I dont want to "wait" for them to do it again.

Does this make sense?

Found out OMW lives in different state then I thought, that the numbers I have might be old...

Will redo search here as soon as son is asleep.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: My thread - 05/28/10 10:35 PM
clap for exposing

slight T/J here... I often read about people exposing and wonder if one day I'll get one of those emails... "Lil, xxx is having an affair"

Stranger things and all that

[/TJ]
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 10:54 PM
Baby down, now I can get on this some more
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 05/28/10 10:58 PM
BT,

My comment was not intended to kick you while you were down. I know how much this hurts. I also know that since you had such a hard time believing it without this evidence it probably hurts even more.

When we find out that the person we love most in life, the very person we have entrusted our heart to has betrayed us in this way, we lose all sense of trust. We no longer trust our wife, now known to be a cheating wife, we don't trust our friends, work acquaintances and others in our life. Most of all, we no longer trust ourselves. We lose the ability to trust our own instincts and ability to judge others rightly.

My comment was more for those who might stumble upon this place, read your thread because it strikes a cord and in spite of what they know is true prefer to believe that their wife (or husband) would never do such a thing.

You're getting very good advice concerning the beginning of the stick of Plan A. Exposure is the greatest single weapon you can use against an affair. Keep in mind that just as when a nuclear bomb is used on the battlefield, there will be a great deal of fallout from exposure. Some will begin to choose sides and unfortunately not all of them will choose your side, though anyone who values marriage most likely will.

But additional fallout will occur as well. The most impactful to you will be the reaction of your wife. She is likely to be madder than you even thought possible and will say things that will have you alternating between wanting to punch her in the face and run away screaming. In some cases, a spouse once exposed will instantly have the fog begin to lift and begin to realize what damage they have wrought. Unfortunately that is a very small percentage. In most cases, the former reaction is the one you are likely to get.

Know and understand that the greater the reaction, no matter what direction it takes, the greater the damage done to the affair by exposure. Fear of losing the source of their addiction is what makes an addict react violently when anyone threatens that source. The greater the outrage, the greater the fear of losing the drug. So if she is really angry, she is really afraid of losing her affair.

Don't forget the other parts of the stick, though. Anything you can do that makes the affair less viable gives you an edge. At the same time, begin to formulate a PLAN that begins to demonstrate to her that the marriage is a better option by focusing on the carrot side of Plan A. Identify her ENs and do whatever you can to meet them and keep your own anger under control. Expect nothing in return for all your efforts and realize that you need to make yourself into the best BT you can become. Become the man she doesn't want to lose while making the OM expendable as too high of a cost for the benefit to be received.

Anything you can do to get in the way of contact is to your benefit, so look for ways to stand between her and OM at every opportunity. Without making your son a pawn in a game of struggling over who gets their way, be sure that you demonstrate the value you hold in the concept of family and make your battle cry one of saving your family from attack. Be a dad, husband, care giver, provider and shelter for your wife to return to. Make it easier for her to work on the marriage than to end it and remember that until she has had NC with OM for a while you can't really do anything to fix it. You must save your marriage first and try to fix it later. The house is on fire. Put out the fire and worry about what color the bedroom will be once the ashes cool.

Also remember that your enemy is not your wife. It is the affair that is the enemy of your marriage. Fight the affair without fighting against her. You can't win her back by making her life miserable when she is around you and safe when she is with OM. It needs to be turned around the other way. Make home with you a good place to be and with OM a frantic, hurried, paranoid experience that removes any and all pleasure.

A bull ride only has to last eight seconds. I'm afraid this is going to last a bit longer. So mount up, strap in, hang on, it's going to be a wild ride for a while.

Cowboy up!

Mark
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:07 PM
Ok, intellius is broken apparently..

thanks mark, I hearyou loud and clearn, I am exposing all over the place. Working on the work angle, OM might get fired for this.

I listened to it again with headphones on and such, and I can tell its him.

No doubt about it.

(cursing)

I need to stop listenin to this for a little bit...

so much rage...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Here is my dilemma. I feel if I get more spy stuff, then I will have to "hope" they do it again so I can catch them. I am not kidding myself that it will just suddenly stop, however, I want no part in its continuing. To me that includes setting traps. I plan to continue making liberal use of the VAR, mostly in her car now because she probably wont do it in our room anymore.

I want to expose. I want to Expose and Plan A and fight for my marriage, I dont want to "wait" for them to do it again.

BT, no I don't understand what you mean. You don't wait for them to do it again, but you continue to spy your [censored] off so you can a) stop them if they don't end contact and b)expose again.

When the dust settles, I would DEMAND that she end all contact. If he sets FOOT in your house or around your child, I would call the police and file a restraining order against him.

Quote
Work knows but not who the OM is yet, I am not sure who I trust over there besides one guy who knows and will call me later tonight. He might be looking to get OM fired.

"Trust" to do what? I would tell everyone at work and even report this to Human Resources. This scumbags affair with your wife has placed you in a horrible position at work.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:19 PM
How far away is your wife, BT?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:39 PM
OMG YAY!! found OMWs number, called it got Voice

Uncle says he talked to other uncle, none of whose kids are here in NC.

Yeah.. she is out with him right now...

ouch.

I dont know how else to say it, I feel broken inside and keep tasting bile. I wish I was one of those people who can just break stuff and feel better...
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:42 PM
Ok, IDK how far away wife is. She is camping with a "cousin" who according to her family, all cousins are in Montana or in ND, and I KNOW she isnt going there.

I have no idea where she is now, but the only plus side is that I KNOW where THEY BOTH are so can operate freely without interference.

Need OMW to answer.

Ok, what I mean with the spy stuff, I plan to keep up with the VAR and planting it in places and not telling her HOW I know, just that I do. I just dont see the point in catching her again. I already know what she is doing, and so does she. Does it serve some purpose?

Her family is pissed at her. Her mom cheated on her dad (their brother) several times and they are all just pissed. Wow, even her Mom is upset with her. This is already nuclear, though I am not done yet.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
OM might get fired for this.

I listened to it again with headphones on and such, and I can tell its him.

No doubt about it.

so much rage...

Good, you should me MAD! Now harness that and use it! Keep up the exposure to kill the affair! I hope OM does get fired.

He has been sleeping with your wife since you lived with him BT.

After exposure is prepping for your attitude and response to your WW when she hears and is outraged.

She was gone BT, was telling you what she needed "because little BT would need it once you were D" because she and the OM were going to move in together. Now you know and you can slay this dragon.

You have the control now even though it doesnt feel like it.

SWW
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:48 PM
I think you are gonna make it!

SWW
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok, what I mean with the spy stuff, I plan to keep up with the VAR and planting it in places and not telling her HOW I know, just that I do. I just dont see the point in catching her again. I already know what she is doing, and so does she. Does it serve some purpose?
.

Yes, you will need to spy so you will know what they are doing. Once she gets back, you will need to DEMAND that she never see him again. You will have to spy in order to ensure that she keeps no contact.

And he is to NEVER EVER set foot on your premises again or come around your child. The fact that this SNAKE has been in your home, YOUR BED ............ faint

You can also use the intel to bust her [censored] to the moon if this ever gets to court. I guess you are in a state where evidence of adultery makes a huge difference.

BT, when you get ahold of his wife, I woild present this the way I told you above. Tell her straight out that her H is having a sexual affair with your wife and she is planning on shacking up with him. Ask her to give you his parents information so you can call them.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Her family is pissed at her. Her mom cheated on her dad (their brother) several times and they are all just pissed. Wow, even her Mom is upset with her. This is already nuclear, though I am not done yet.

BT, will they speak to her? If not, then all this exposure is a waste. Please ask these people to speak to her and use their persuasion to influence her to end her affair.

YOU ARE DOING GREAT AND ARE GOING TO MAKE IT. smile I want to applaud you for stepping up to the plate and defending your marriage and your son.

Keep up the good work, BT.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
[quote=BTinTrouble]
BT, when you get ahold of his wife, I woild present this the way I told you above. Tell her straight out that her H is having a sexual affair with your wife and she is planning on shacking up with him. Ask her to give you his parents information so you can call them.

And send her the dadgum recording too!

SWW
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:53 PM
Again BT sorry, but way to go on exposure hurray !!!

Mark's advice was great, read it many times over and start making your plans to plan A your butt off even though you will not get anyting in return and plan on her being PI$$ED off.

And if uncle confirmed they are still together, then the OMWs needs to know, so keep trying to get in touch with her. As soon as that happens, you can pretty much bet that your WW will be calling you mad as a hornet.

And i agree about the other spying stuff too, you already know, now all you need is to keep snooping to make sure she is not lying to you about NC.

And demand NC PERIOD..........

Just keep breathing and doing what you are doing.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:53 PM
on the phone with OMW...

she had no idea about any divorce, OM is not with her as he told us, she thought he was working this weekend.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
on the phone with OMW...

she had no idea about any divorce, OM is not with her as he told us, she thought he was working this weekend.


hurray


No Surprise Here BT! You have just been handed a wonderful gift!

SWW
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok, intellius is broken apparently..

thanks mark, I hearyou loud and clearn, I am exposing all over the place. Working on the work angle, OM might get fired for this.

I listened to it again with headphones on and such, and I can tell its him.

No doubt about it.

(cursing)

I need to stop listenin to this for a little bit...
so much rage...

Agree with SWW on using the rage to slay the dragon.

But definitely do stop listening to it for a bit. You don't want your rage to get the better of you if/when you talk to your WW.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/28/10 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
on the phone with OMW...

she had no idea about any divorce, OM is not with her as he told us, she thought he was working this weekend.


hurray


No Surprise Here BT! You have just been handed a wonderful gift!

SWW

Ditto, WAY TO GO BT!!!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
on the phone with OMW...

she had no idea about any divorce, OM is not with her as he told us, she thought he was working this weekend.

DIRECT HIT!! dance2
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:07 AM
Ok, told her basically what you guys said, sex, affair, we compared notes, she had an idea something was up, but now knows, shes a social worker, wow...

So they are out together.

WW has called me twice while I was on the phone.

I also told everyone I talked to many times, especially when they tried to say "well I will call her whenever you say" and I made sure to say, no no no, thats the point, call her, by tomorrow I will have confronted her and its game on.

I need to write a lot of facebook letters.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:12 AM
You are doing great, BT! Just keep up the pressure.

Can you get the names of the OM's parents and expose to them?
You might be able to find them on the OMW's facebook page, if she has one.

Also, don't you work with the OM? Are you planning on exposing at work? Since you work with him, that is something that should be brought to the attention of HR. This would be a problem at my own company.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
WW has called me twice while I was on the phone.

Because exposure is working!

SWW
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:27 AM
BT, please don't answer the phone when your wife calls. I suspect she is getting calls about your exposure and is calling to find out. If you don't answer you will ruin her weekend wtih the OM. They will be flipping out wondering what is happening. The more people who call her tonight and tomorrow the better.

RUIN their weekend with your exposure!
Posted By: Scotland Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:27 AM
Doesn't it feel GREAT to be in a NUCLEAR EXPOSURE? You are doing GREAT my friend. AWESOME.

Remember, no apologizing and no LBing. You will be a broken record when you talk to her. "I will do what I have to for the good of our marriage." Don't engage a wayturd.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:28 AM
Work knows. I think they want to fire him.

We are having a problem with "hostile work enviroment" and they are looking for excuses to fire some people. He is one of them.

Doesnt look good for OM.

I can ask OMW for numbers to OMs family, but she said she would be telling everyone. I dont know what to say.

I also am not sure if WW is just calling to ask how Son did tonight.

I guess I will know if she shows up at the house, but I am not done exposing.

Apparently, you cant send more than like 8 messages through facebook without getting blocked for abuse...

/sigh
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:30 AM
Scotland, I wish I could say yes, that it feels great.

Mostly I just feel sick.

5 years, countless professions of undying love, death of our son, the last 15 months with our 2nd son, staying with me through a 9 month deployment and 2 moves, and all those years of me being an emotional basket case and she stuck by me.

All those times she talked with my friends, her friends, her and my family, about how important marriage was and how its such BS that people throw it away over nothing nowadays.

After she watched her mom cheat on her dad over and over before they divorced...

I am mostly just sick.

To my stomach.

I guess it feels a little bit LIBERATING to get it all out in the sunlight... but definately not good.

Sorry.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:31 AM
Keep the expectations under control, BT!

And keep moving forward toward your goal...
Posted By: Scotland Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:35 AM
I am sorry if you took it the wrong way. I just mean that it will feel better as you move forward.

My WH stopped talking to his own sister for more than 4 years because she had an affair. He was disgusted with his parents because as he was growing up, BOTH his parents had affairS and he was exposed to their APs. He always told me that he would NEVER do that to his children. Well, I guess he was WRONG.

It is a bad feeling for now but I PROMISE that yo0u WILL NOT feel bad about doing this today. I know the only thing I regret about my EXPOSURE was that it wasn't NUCLEAR.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Work knows. I think they want to fire him.

We are having a problem with "hostile work enviroment" and they are looking for excuses to fire some people. He is one of them.

Have you notified them OFFICIALLY of his adultery with your wife? That is what I would do, BT. Lodge a formal complaint against him for having an affair with your wife.

Make as much trouble as possible for this scumbag.

Quote
I can ask OMW for numbers to OMs family, but she said she would be telling everyone. I dont know what to say.

This is good. BT, she does know your name and #, right?

Quote
Apparently, you cant send more than like 8 messages through facebook without getting blocked for abuse...

/sigh

I THINK you have to space them out a couple of minutes.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Scotland, I wish I could say yes, that it feels great.

Mostly I just feel sick.

5 years, countless professions of undying love, death of our son, the last 15 months with our 2nd son, staying with me through a 9 month deployment and 2 moves, and all those years of me being an emotional basket case and she stuck by me.

All those times she talked with my friends, her friends, her and my family, about how important marriage was and how its such BS that people throw it away over nothing nowadays.

After she watched her mom cheat on her dad over and over before they divorced...

I am mostly just sick.

To my stomach.

I guess it feels a little bit LIBERATING to get it all out in the sunlight... but definately not good.

Sorry.

Totally understand BT, D-day was the worst day of my life, but you are doing great!!!

And i think Scotland only meant the feeling of letting it out to help end the affair......

You are in GREAT hands here listen to these people, they know their stuff.....
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:44 AM
No I dont take these things bad, I was just expressing myself honestly. I dont feel good. Its ok. I think I get what you mean, and regardless what you guys post...

YOU POST

and it means a lot to me and helps me keep my head up.

Mark, my expectations are crazy right now. I DO NOT expect her to do anything rational for a long time.

Work.. I am talking to his sup regularly. Will call him in a sec.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:51 AM
BT, how did you end up finding the OMW?
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:52 AM
BT,

She is just sick right now. If she had cancer and was still sneaking smokes you would rip them from her hand right?

OM is just like the smokes.

Dr. Harley says we are all hard wired to have affairs. I believe him.

Your WW is a garden variety cheating wife that had, I say had because of your guts to expose, a fantasy. Nothing more.

SWW
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:53 AM
Just remember to keep breathing.

No matter what happens you will be okay even though right now you just want to puke.........
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:05 AM
I found OMW because I remembered the town they live in and that it was NOT in SC, but rather NC, then it was a matter of time.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:24 AM
holy crap...

the officer in charge of the school I work for, and the senior civilian are coming over to talk...

God I dont want to let them listen to my wife screwing someone...

I want to swear so much...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
holy crap...

the officer in charge of the school I work for, and the senior civilian are coming over to talk...

God I dont want to let them listen to my wife screwing someone...

I want to swear so much...

What is this about, BT?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:27 AM
You don't have to let them listen, just tell them you have recorded proof.

keep breathing BT and think about your son.

You are doing fine just keep your head straight.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:27 AM
SWW, thank you so much for that...

I need to hold on to that.

She quit smoking for me. WW did. Cold turkey. Saw the look on my face right after we first met when she lit one up, quit, right then. Maybe 3 cigarettes during a relapse over 5 years. Once when I was deployed, once when she was out with my friends from back home drinking and many of them were smoking. Once when she was out with friends in CA.

Told me about all 3, crying, sorry she had lied to me and broke a promise...

Course, she started smoking the last month at the friends house before we moved into our house, but she quit once we moved in again. Said she didnt care what I thought anymore, that she was doing what she wanted...

I wish so much that I had been more attentive.

I know I am not at fault for her decision to do this, but I do wish I hadnt contributed to an enviroment that made it possible.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:32 AM
Well that is what plan A is for....
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
holy crap...

the officer in charge of the school I work for, and the senior civilian are coming over to talk...

God I dont want to let them listen to my wife screwing someone...

I want to swear so much...

This is great news BT. Military guy speaking here. You don�t have to play the tape for them ok, just let them know you have it and that the OM is wrecking your life.

They are gonna take this very seriously. Just stay cool.

You want them to take action to stop a hostile work environment that is wrecking your life. While this isn�t their fault per se, do not back down or apologize for exposing if that�s the way they are going.

This OM is an employee of theirs and so are you. You have proof!

You have proof! And they had better put a stop to this or you are gonna talk to their superiors.

SWW
Posted By: _SOL Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:34 AM
BT,

You are doing good my man. I'm sorry to hear your suspicions being confirmed, but it is better to know exactly what you are dealing with.

So how are the exposures going? I know it's tough, but remember why you are doing it. Keep your eye on the ball and remember your goal in this whole thing. We are with you.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:36 AM
BT
"holy crap...

the officer in charge of the school I work for, and the senior civilian are coming over to talk..."

Off the PC since this morning, wow!

Have they seen you yet?

Has WW tried to call you anymore tonight?

Red flag!

WW goes away without telling you were she will be.

Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
She quit smoking for me. Maybe 3 cigarettes during a relapse over 5 years. Once when I was deployed, once when she was out with my friends from back home drinking and many of them were smoking. Once when she was out with friends in CA.

Told me about all 3, crying, sorry she had lied to me and broke a promise...

I wish so much that I had been more attentive.

Sorry BT, i dont believe her. Maybe I am wrong.

SWW
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:44 AM
You stay cool right now ya hear?

You tell the CO and senior exec very calmly you are upset, that you are going to try to save your marriage and that you have proof that OM has been screwing your wife.

You do NOT get into MB stuff with them ok? Your position is that you are upset, you are trying to save your marriage, that one of THEIR emplyees and a fellow COWORKER or yours has gone behind your back and you are upset!!!!

No backing down. Calm, Steely gaze!

Do It BT.

SWW
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
K, exposed to her mom, grandma, grandpa, uncle, 2/3 best female friends, 4 other female friends, uncle should be emailing me a list of further relatives soon.

Work knows but not who the OM is yet, I am not sure who I trust over there besides one guy who knows and will call me later tonight. He might be looking to get OM fired.

I hear you guys on the spy stuff.

Here is my dilemma. I feel if I get more spy stuff, then I will have to "hope" they do it again so I can catch them. I am not kidding myself that it will just suddenly stop, however, I want no part in its continuing. To me that includes setting traps. I plan to continue making liberal use of the VAR, mostly in her car now because she probably wont do it in our room anymore.

I want to expose. I want to Expose and Plan A and fight for my marriage, I dont want to "wait" for them to do it again.

Does this make sense?

Found out OMW lives in different state then I thought, that the numbers I have might be old...

Will redo search here as soon as son is asleep.

I see absolutely no reason to purchase additional spyware. You've got the proof YOU need.

EXPOSE NOW. You know who it is. Your WW isn't screwing more than one person. You know that. Act, don't re-act.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:34 AM
MB, he already exposed the affair. He found the OMW and is now speaking to the top Army guys where he works.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:34 AM
thanks mel you beat me to the punch.....
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
How far away is your wife, BT?

She needs to come home. Now. Tell her you've got something important she needs to hear. I'm sure that will bollix up the weekend she's got going with OM. Good. Because you know that's more than likely who she's with, right?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:35 AM
Ok, I didnt back down, I told them I do NOT want to share the sounds of my wife c***** on some other man with anyone.

I told them about OMWs corraberating statements.

Amazingly, the OIC (officer) remembered OM pointing out a campground 1/2 hr away. So they took off to go check it out, will know more in about a half hour.

I told them the evidence, the phone calls, that I am positive its his voice, that I know its him.

I told them if you have a 500 pc puzzle, you can be missing one piece and still know what the picture is.

Deputy said that well, the only definitive proof is if one of them admits to that, and we probably wont get that so we cant expect it.

I think they want to catch them, but I dont really care.

I am not allowing him around my son or my family, I really dont care what they do.

On top of that, he is a contractor, a temporary worker filling a temporary position, with a group that has already had 3 people fired out of I think 15-20 employees, and that company is ANXIOUS to avoid attention.

I dont plan to let them listen.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:38 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
on the phone with OMW...

she had no idea about any divorce, OM is not with her as he told us, she thought he was working this weekend.

You mean...the OM was...gasp...lying?????Yep. My M was supposedly over, too - imagine my surprise. MrRollieEyes
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:40 AM
I dont want her to come home.

Not yet...

The OIC and Deputy are going out to the only campground within a half hour that OM even mentioned to the OIC about 2 weeks ago.

They might be there.

That would be quite interesting...

Either way, I know, so thats what matters to me.

Also, regardless, I guess the guys contract company says he is done already, so he dont have work here anymore, and OMW, when I told her, said, well, he should have thought of that...
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:41 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok, told her basically what you guys said, sex, affair, we compared notes, she had an idea something was up, but now knows, shes a social worker, wow...

So they are out together.

WW has called me twice while I was on the phone.

I also told everyone I talked to many times, especially when they tried to say "well I will call her whenever you say" and I made sure to say, no no no, thats the point, call her, by tomorrow I will have confronted her and its game on.

I need to write a lot of facebook letters.

Son, I think you may just save your marriage. hug
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:42 AM
ok...

I dont know what to do

I dont want to sit alone and think...

I feel very angry, stemming from 3 out of 4 sources, hurt, betrayal, frustration. Not sure if I feel guilt. I feel some guilt for not being a better husband, but I dont feel like that is at all attached to what she did. I dont feel like her affair is my fault at all. I just want to be a better husband.

Plan A I guess...

What do I do now guys?

.....
feel sick still.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:43 AM
BT you are in quite capable hands, just continue with your goal in mind, you are saving your marriage. You only do marriage, you don't do divorce.

I am signing out for the night.

Good luck and keep us posted.....
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Scotland, I wish I could say yes, that it feels great.

Mostly I just feel sick.

5 years, countless professions of undying love, death of our son, the last 15 months with our 2nd son, staying with me through a 9 month deployment and 2 moves, and all those years of me being an emotional basket case and she stuck by me.

All those times she talked with my friends, her friends, her and my family, about how important marriage was and how its such BS that people throw it away over nothing nowadays.

After she watched her mom cheat on her dad over and over before they divorced...

I am mostly just sick.

To my stomach.

I guess it feels a little bit LIBERATING to get it all out in the sunlight... but definately not good.

Sorry.

I don't think you can realize right now just how great you are. You, sir, are a WARRIOR. Well done! I would like to think that, if I had the adultery bone in me, my H would do exactly what you are doing in order to save me from myself.

Nicely done, BT! hurray
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Son, I think you may just save your marriage. hug

Lets please call him SIR SON, now. He changed from a serf to a knight tonight. It wasn't fun, but he did what had to be done.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:46 AM
I just read your other post, you are fine......

I know you don't want to see her right now, but if you do just keep your cool do not get angry (and i know that will be difficult and i did get angry on my D-day).

Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
She quit smoking for me. Maybe 3 cigarettes during a relapse over 5 years. Once when I was deployed, once when she was out with my friends from back home drinking and many of them were smoking. Once when she was out with friends in CA.

Told me about all 3, crying, sorry she had lied to me and broke a promise...

I wish so much that I had been more attentive.

Sorry BT, i dont believe her. Maybe I am wrong.

SWW

ITA. I sneaked cigarettes for I don't know how long and got away with it.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:50 AM
thank you Crazy, and also maritalbliss.

I hope I am great.

WW told me again about 2 weeks ago that I could NEVER be someone that she could be happy with. That I am just not good enough.

She is the only person who has told me that.

Not one single person I have exposed to has said it.

I exposed short and sweet "she is having an affair, I have proof, help me kill it."
But if they asked questions, I answered. If they asked "well was something going on?" I owned up to my side. I didnt stint at all.

But every single one of them said,
"but you didnt cheat on HER right?"
"Well, then she shouldnt have done that, especially with you willing to work on the marriage."

Her whole family is PISSED. I hope they dont abandon her, I have called a few times and said that, "dont leave her hanging, be her friends and family, help me repair this marriage."

I guess I can hope and dream it will work out.

At this point, I dont really believe it will, I cant see how it could, but I DO know that what I am doing is the right thing. That keeps me going.

I am doing the right thing, by my son, and for my marriage.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:51 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
MB, he already exposed the affair. He found the OMW and is now speaking to the top Army guys where he works.

Got it - posting too fast -
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I feel very angry, stemming from 3 out of 4 sources, hurt, betrayal, frustration. Not sure if I feel guilt. I feel some guilt for not being a better husband, but I dont feel like that is at all attached to what she did. I dont feel like her affair is my fault at all. I just want to be a better husband.

BT, I know you feel sick, but be assured you have done more to save your marriage tonight in the last 4 hours than in the last 4 months. You stepped up to the plate when it needed to be done. Now you know you can count on yourself to stand up when need be.

Your wife is going to be furious when she finds out you have ruined her affair. I would prepare for this by not allowing yourself to get upset, scared, manipulated or baited into a fight. You must look at her as you would a crack head who is enraged that you brought in a crowd of onlookers to watch them get high. You have ruined her high. You have taken the booze away from the falling down drunk.

The hardest part is yet to come, I am sorry to say. But, I really do think you have it in you to withstand the worst. Hang on the for the ride, friend. We are to help you through. hug
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Son, I think you may just save your marriage. hug

Lets please call him SIR SON, now. He changed from a serf to a knight tonight. It wasn't fun, but he did what had to be done.

Yes, ma'm, he has earned the "Sir". I was initially skeptical, since he was just so darned accommodating to his WW. But hotdamn did he step up to the plate! Whew! I'm fanning the sweat off, just thinking about it. You go, BT!
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
thank you Crazy, and also maritalbliss.

I hope I am great.

WW told me again about 2 weeks ago that I could NEVER be someone that she could be happy with. That I am just not good enough.

She is the only person who has told me that.

Not one single person I have exposed to has said it.

I exposed short and sweet "she is having an affair, I have proof, help me kill it."
But if they asked questions, I answered. If they asked "well was something going on?" I owned up to my side. I didnt stint at all.

But every single one of them said,
"but you didnt cheat on HER right?"
"Well, then she shouldnt have done that, especially with you willing to work on the marriage."

Her whole family is PISSED. I hope they dont abandon her, I have called a few times and said that, "dont leave her hanging, be her friends and family, help me repair this marriage."

I guess I can hope and dream it will work out.

At this point, I dont really believe it will, I cant see how it could, but I DO know that what I am doing is the right thing. That keeps me going.

I am doing the right thing, by my son, and for my marriage.

It certainly can work out and there are many people on here who can attest to that....


As Mel said hang on the ride has yet begun, but listen to them they know their stuff.

You have done great tonight!!!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:04 AM

BT, the next watch outs will be to not react to her anger and to NOT leave your home or allow her to take your boy away from his home. If she tries to kick you out, tell her no thank you. If she threatens to move out in the night with the boy, tell her she is free to go, but she is not free to take your boy from his safe home without a court order and a sheriff with a bigger gun than yours.

Let her know you will not cooperate with any divorce scheme and if she files, you will countersue for adultery - let her know in your state that she will get no alimony. And that you will sue for primary custody of the child and possession of the home. [other fathers from your state on this board have recieved this]

The point is not to be mean, but to BURST HER FANTASY. Your wife believes that she can replace you with the OM. Your job is to disabuse her of this notion.

Once you lay this out to her, then present her with the CARROT of Plan A. Tell her you are willing to forgive her and work on having a great marriage if she ends her affair and participates in MB coaching with you. Let her know you love her and are willing to give her an opportunity to EARN your forgiveness.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:06 AM
God Bless you for standing up for your son, BT!! He has a father he can be proud of.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:23 AM
Oh Man BT,

I was going to post igrips, but saw your's and well deflating.

I think you need to back off here, okay. I know this is an extremely emotionally day for you. The reality is that You are the deciding factor in your life and your marriage. I feel that, no matter the good intentions BT, that you are being whiplashed around by so many opinions, The only two people who are going to decide that fate of you, your wife, your marriage, and your family are you and your W.

So, I am putting myself in your shoes. My wife did have an affair, but there was never anything in our home. So, there are some who could tolerate that, most husbands in my opionion could not.

BT I think the major issue now is to confront her when she gets back. It seems like you have just a couple of days to prepare for that, but belive me this is your best chance.

BT, imho, you will need to expose suddenly like a missle and you will also need to confront the suspected OM suddenly also.

Also, I would consult with the best attourney you can find to be advivesed of your rights as a father and a husband.

BT, I respect what MB and the advocates here are trying to do, but I I was in your situation, my wife bringing a lover into my HOme, god that would be the end. Imho, this is the most evil thing that a woman could to. I thank God that I never ever had to face that BT.

I was going to post to another tongit but when i saw your situation, well I just wanted to focus on you.

Also, BT, recognize the people who are truely concerned, as opposed to those who may upset you and may be on here for their own selfishness. I.e., stay close to Melody, SDCW, Petals, Markos, and some others, and stay away from new people here who do not know what they are doing, and the bitter people in life like Mai Mai.

Man BT I am going to pray for you hard tonight that you make the right decision now for your son and you.

Tom




Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:23 AM
thanks Mel

I DO want to see her.

I wont AO or anything...

but I dont trust her. Drugs are bad m'kay...
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:26 AM
thanks Tom.

I think I get you about how you would be done.

I dont know what to say

I love my wife, commitment is commitment.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:27 AM
BT,

Also, Marital Bliss, forgot, she seems to be a reg here but good. You are an intellegent guy, so the ball is in your court as far as who you listen to and what YOU decide based on your morales.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
but I dont trust her. Drugs are bad m'kay...

That is exactly the right approach, BT. She is absolutely untrustworthy right now. That can change, but I think you can see now how very untrustworthy she is. As long as you approach her like that, you will be fine.

Go by her ACTIONS, ignore her words and you will be fine.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:35 AM
Originally Posted by Tom2010
BT, imho, you will need to expose suddenly like a missle and you will also need to confront the suspected OM suddenly also.

Also, I would consult with the best attourney you can find to be advivesed of your rights as a father and a husband.

Hey Tom, he is already a step ahead of you. He has consulted an attorney and he has done a nuclear exposure tonight. He found the OM's wife and exposed to her. He exposed to friends and family and he exposed to their bosses at work. He has done an outstanding job tonight.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:37 AM
HI BT,

I just finished reading through your thread.

I'm so sorry for what you are going through.

You're doing a great job w/ exposure. I just hope you are ready for the rage you are going to see from WW. If you look back at how "nice" she was when you were leaving, when you were away, and when she was leaving...it was b/c she was getting her addiction met. So be prepared for the angriest you have EVER seen her when she comes home. You have just taken away her drug.

And please move back into your bedroom TONIGHT. If SHE doesn't want to sleep w/ you, let her sleep on the couch. Time to reclaim your bedroom!

I guess you'll want to toss out the mattress, though.

Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:41 AM
ok...

now what?


nearly positive OM is getting fired.

My boss called him, asked him if he was in town, OM said no, boss asked if he was in Home town with his family, OM said yes, Boss said, Hope I didnt disturb your family, OM said no they are fine...

Obviously Boss already knew from OMW that OM is not in fact in town with his family. Boss is convinced.

Boss went ahead and told OM that an employee has some pretty damning evidence that OM is sleeping with the employee's wife. Boss said OM acted very odd and abnormally to this news, and kinda laughed it off.

So they know.

WW sent a text asking why her mother left a message bawling her eyes out.

Ok...

so they know, do I call WW and ask to speak to OM, tell OM never to come around again, then tell WW to come home?

I am pretty much good on exposure. All her friends and most of her family except her father know, and he will soon enough.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:42 AM
I already moved into my bedroom again, most of my stuff is back in there again.

SWEET!! I got another one right!, thanks marsh
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:42 AM
need thoughts on that quickly please...

Do I call WW and OM now that they know? Boss gave it away that I have evidence and stuff, they should know. I dont want to leave WW out there all weekend nailing him...
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:45 AM
ITA with Marsh be prepared, she is going to be PI$$ED, she is going to say horrible things to you to try to make you angry. It is not going to be pretty so be prepared.

Your mantra is i only discuss marriage, i understand but i only discuss marriage...........
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
so they know, do I call WW and ask to speak to OM, tell OM never to come around again, then tell WW to come home?

I am pretty much good on exposure. All her friends and most of her family except her father know, and he will soon enough.

BT, call her up and tell her that everyone knows about the affair and knows she is with OM. Tell her that OM's wife knows, his boss, her mother, everyone. Tell her the gig is up.

Then tell her goodbye. Don't demand anything, just leave it like it that. Don't answer her calls if she calls back.

In the meantime, move back in your room. She can sleep on the couch. You should not be the one who is put out of his room over her filthy affair.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
need thoughts on that quickly please...

Do I call WW and OM now that they know? Boss gave it away that I have evidence and stuff, they should know. I dont want to leave WW out there all weekend nailing him...

I doubt there will be anymore nailing. You've just ruined their weekend. He'll be heading home to try to patch things up w/ his W. And WW will be coming home to chew you out! And see what kind of hell she can make for you.

Posted By: ManInMotion Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:47 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I dont want to leave WW out there all weekend nailing him...

They've just been busted, so that's likely not going to happen. More likely they're freaking out at the moment over the exposure.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:47 AM
ITA with Mel.....
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:48 AM
Tell her this: THERE WAS A NANNY CAM IN THE HOUSE AND WE ALL KNOW NOW. Don't tell her anything more.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:49 AM
remember she is going pi$$ed be prepared, DO NOT ENGANGE in her anger and DO NOT leave your home no matter what she says and do not let her take your son.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:52 AM
Originally Posted by Mark1952
BT,

My comment was not intended to kick you while you were down. I know how much this hurts. I also know that since you had such a hard time believing it without this evidence it probably hurts even more.

When we find out that the person we love most in life, the very person we have entrusted our heart to has betrayed us in this way, we lose all sense of trust. We no longer trust our wife, now known to be a cheating wife, we don't trust our friends, work acquaintances and others in our life. Most of all, we no longer trust ourselves. We lose the ability to trust our own instincts and ability to judge others rightly.

My comment was more for those who might stumble upon this place, read your thread because it strikes a cord and in spite of what they know is true prefer to believe that their wife (or husband) would never do such a thing.

You're getting very good advice concerning the beginning of the stick of Plan A. Exposure is the greatest single weapon you can use against an affair. Keep in mind that just as when a nuclear bomb is used on the battlefield, there will be a great deal of fallout from exposure. Some will begin to choose sides and unfortunately not all of them will choose your side, though anyone who values marriage most likely will.

But additional fallout will occur as well. The most impactful to you will be the reaction of your wife. She is likely to be madder than you even thought possible and will say things that will have you alternating between wanting to punch her in the face and run away screaming. In some cases, a spouse once exposed will instantly have the fog begin to lift and begin to realize what damage they have wrought. Unfortunately that is a very small percentage. In most cases, the former reaction is the one you are likely to get.

Know and understand that the greater the reaction, no matter what direction it takes, the greater the damage done to the affair by exposure. Fear of losing the source of their addiction is what makes an addict react violently when anyone threatens that source. The greater the outrage, the greater the fear of losing the drug. So if she is really angry, she is really afraid of losing her affair.

Don't forget the other parts of the stick, though. Anything you can do that makes the affair less viable gives you an edge. At the same time, begin to formulate a PLAN that begins to demonstrate to her that the marriage is a better option by focusing on the carrot side of Plan A. Identify her ENs and do whatever you can to meet them and keep your own anger under control. Expect nothing in return for all your efforts and realize that you need to make yourself into the best BT you can become. Become the man she doesn't want to lose while making the OM expendable as too high of a cost for the benefit to be received.

Anything you can do to get in the way of contact is to your benefit, so look for ways to stand between her and OM at every opportunity. Without making your son a pawn in a game of struggling over who gets their way, be sure that you demonstrate the value you hold in the concept of family and make your battle cry one of saving your family from attack. Be a dad, husband, care giver, provider and shelter for your wife to return to. Make it easier for her to work on the marriage than to end it and remember that until she has had NC with OM for a while you can't really do anything to fix it. You must save your marriage first and try to fix it later. The house is on fire. Put out the fire and worry about what color the bedroom will be once the ashes cool.

Also remember that your enemy is not your wife. It is the affair that is the enemy of your marriage. Fight the affair without fighting against her. You can't win her back by making her life miserable when she is around you and safe when she is with OM. It needs to be turned around the other way. Make home with you a good place to be and with OM a frantic, hurried, paranoid experience that removes any and all pleasure.

A bull ride only has to last eight seconds. I'm afraid this is going to last a bit longer. So mount up, strap in, hang on, it's going to be a wild ride for a while.

Cowboy up!

Mark

Read this again.....
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:53 AM
Bt,

Simply I had a hard time keeping up with what you have done and been thru in your posts. But now that I see, you have a guradian Angel. Her name is Melody
Man BT, tonight my prayers for
you . That is all I can do now.

Tom
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:55 AM
BT,

I mentioned it and Marsh just mentioned it again. I am going to lay it out for you another time because I'm not convinced you understand what we're saying to you.

When you next talk to your wife, she is not going to be mad. She is going to be a raving lunatic bordering on homicidal. She is going to tell you some combination of these things: "I was thinking about trying to work this out, but now you have ruined any chance of that." "How could you do such a thing and involve another man's wife in our problems?" "Great. So now you've got my family turning against me. Do you really think they won't see through your lies and learn the truth that you are controlling and abusive and....(insert whatever kind of words you think might come out when she spits here)..." "You don't get it. I don;t love you any more/haven't loved you in ___years and will never love you." "I never really loved you."

Understand something here BT. She has been lying to you all along. Don't bother to try to believe she is telling the truth now. She is going to call you names you didn't know she could verbalize. She will talk of hating you, of wishing you were dead and all sorts of things that will cut you to your very soul. As quickly as you can, express to her that you are fighting to save your family and then get into some quiet place, even if there is nowhere to go to, focus on yourself and pretty much let her anger burn out.

Do NOT discuss the state of your marriage with her while she is raging. Do NOT try to talk to her about MB while is so venomous. (Yes, as already stated you can tell her you know about her dirty affair but are willing to forgive her and work with her to build a great marriage using coaching and counseling. Don't try to educate her to MB yet, OK?

Breathe. Focus. Remain calm. Control your own anger. Do NOT let yourself blow up at her. Do NOT even move toward her in a threatening way. Crazy wayward wives tend to try to provoke you into doing something threatening so they can call the cops.

I know you love your wife, BT. Just remember that she might still be in there somewhere, but right now an alien is in charge of her mind. The alien is the one who is talking.

Did I mention that all aliens are liars? They are not capable of telling the truth.

Mark
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:56 AM
Oh, and have your recorder ready when she gets home... you'll want to record your conversation w/ her in case she tries to pull something and call the police to fabricate a story about you.

She won't be the first WW who has pulled that on their BH.

Be ready!

Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:58 AM
Marsh,

Are we using the same brain tonight or something?

Mark
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by Mark1952
Marsh,

Are we using the same brain tonight or something?

Mark

LOL

They always use the same script.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 04:34 AM
Incoming post, please stick around and read it...
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/29/10 04:40 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Tell her this: THERE WAS A NANNY CAM IN THE HOUSE AND WE ALL KNOW NOW. Don't tell her anything more.

Brilliant !
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 05:07 AM
Ok, so... OIC and Deputy basically caught them. Not in the act, but word trap, and OM admitted it to the OIC.

So now I have that evidence.

I called OM, he didnt answer.

I called WW. She answered. I told her I thought she should come home. She said Oh really? You can tell me what to do now?

She said things like:

I cant believe you called my family first and didnt have the balls to confront me.
You knew I was leaving you, I told you in September.
You dont own me.
I cant believe you would do this.
I was gonna leave you already.
What did you tell my mom, do you know how upset you made her? I cant believe you would do that to her!

Lots of that.

I mostly said:

I love you, I want you to come home, I dont trust you, but I want us to work on this.
WW, you have left your son to sleep here without you so you could go out with OM.
Everyone knows WW. Everyone. Your friends and family, mine, everyone. Its not a secret anymore.
When she said she might come home tomorrow I told her to think about her son and her family.

Then I called OM again, he answered, I said flat out:
Hi, I want to be clear, you are not welcome at my house, around my family or my son. I dont control what my wife does but I dont want to see you on my property or around my son.
He said, "ok" and hung up.


Ok, OM still doesnt know that OMW knows. She asked me not to relay that. She 100% ID'd him on the audio. OM is also fired from his job, and the friend (who is a friend of mine) is not going to allow him to stay at his house anymore. OMW I think plans to change the locks tomorrow. So OM doesnt really have many places to go. I wonder if WW will head off with him.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 05:21 AM
Quote
I wonder if WW will head off with him.


OM is unemployed now. WW doesn't have a job. The chances that they will head off into the sunset is not very likely.

Their "love" affair is not as wonderful as it was before exposure.

Quote
When she said she might come home tomorrow


She'll be home. Count on it.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: My thread - 05/29/10 05:22 AM
BT,

It's been a long day for you. Think about taking a walk and getting some air. Tomorrow may be worse, so think about your son too, and maybe arrange some help on that end if there might be fireworks in the house. Also, and I know this may sound impossible right now, but try to get some sleep. You've been through the ringer today, but you done good.

Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 05:38 AM
God I feel like crap...

so much nervous energy.

I cant believe she refused to come home.

I guess I can, it fits the fog...

I need to read up on that.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 05:43 AM
BT,

I want you to read through this thread w/ the eyes that WW is having an A. Your WW did a great job convincing you that the reason she wanted to end things is b/c of you. You need to understand that that wasn't true. The things she complained about to you were GREATLY exaggerated by her in order for her to justify her A.

I'm not saying you don't have room to improve yourself, but I'm saying you need to shift your perspective a bit in order to regain your footing.

I would have liked it better if you had delivered the message Mel suggested... Just state the fact that everyone knew. That way WW would have been WORRIED that YOU might kick her out of her home. Turn the tables on her.

But, I think you were unable to do that b/c you are still blaming yourself for most of this.

You are 50% responsible for the condition of your M. But SHE is 100% responsible for the A.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 06:08 AM
Just a couple of things that jumped out at me right away from your first post...

Quote
She mentioned that one of her major issues was that she didnt feel appreciated, and I sure did do a lousy job of showing my appreciation so I starting trying to do things to show it. I started leaving little notes under her door, or on her TV or in her Kitchen telling her specific things she did that day that I appreciated and how much they meant to me. She told me to stop leaving notes, said they make her feel uncomfortable and refused to explain why they made her feel that way. She has threatened to "leave faster" if I make her stay uncomfortable.

Your plan A was making her uncomfortable b/c it was making it more difficult for her to justify her A to herself.

Quote
Good news, she has said she wants to be friends and make this amicable. She says we have a child to raise and have to do it together even though we wont be married.

This was not good news. She wanted you to be her friend after she D'd you for another man. That way she could tell herself that what she did wasn't bad/wrong otherwise you two wouldn't still be friends.

This is why it is so important that you tell her all the things Mel suggested earlier. That if she leaves you, you will NEVER be her friend. That she will not get alimony. That you will fight HARD for custody.

You need to keep bursting her fantasy future bubble w/ hard core reality.

Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/29/10 06:21 AM
You might want to think about your financial precautions, at this time.

If you have credit cards that WW can use, cancel them.

If there is $$$ WW can access, button it up.

Do not spend the money yourself, just put roadblocks in WW's way if she decides to go out an purchase anything.

Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 06:46 AM
Thanks Marsh, I need to get that right in my head.

When and if she calls tomorrow, I am going to make it more clear that I WILL NOT allow my son to be exposed to this.

I want to get a lawyer and see if there is a sort of "seperation" type thing you can get where I get full temp custody until we figure out what to do. I dont mind divorcing her for a while until we work it out either...

I want to save my [censored], I dont trust her. The door is open for her to come back but its a long hall way with lots of video cameras and retina scans and stuff before she gets inside again. They are pretty retina scanners, and fluffy and nice to look at (Plan A), but they are still retina scanners.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 06:47 AM
Pepperband, how do I do that?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 07:07 AM
Call your credit card companies (make sure you are at zero balance) and ask them to cancel your card.

Open up a new savings/checking account and move your money out of your old account and into your new one.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:03 AM
Day 2...

I think I should have ate and slept more yesterday.

Happy to see little boy happy when he opened his room door and saw me in mommy and daddy's bed.

I was by myself.

She didnt come home last night.

That hurts a lot more than I thought it would.

She abandoned her son to stay out with him...

I wish I knew what happened to my wife. WW isnt her, she is an alien for sure. I hope to see my wife again someday. I miss her.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:13 AM
So, she just called. I answered. Not sure if I should have.

Said she decided she not going to come home till Monday like she planned. Says she cant trust me anymore.

I said, you cant trust me? WW, you are abandoning your son to cheat on your husband. Let me put our son on the phone so you can explain to him why you arent home.

She said, he doesnt know, why would I talk to him, he doesnt know whats going on

Yes he does WW, in the same way you chide me for swearing around him, he knows. You need to think about what you are doing.

WW: I see you are upset. Maybe on monday you can be better about this and not be so upset. You and our son need quality time anyway, he missed his daddy this week.

Me: He probably thought his daddy was here, since he wouldnt be able to tell the difference from outside your room.

WW: Right... goodbye BH, see you on monday.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:25 AM
darnit...

I am reading Plan A / Exposure threads linked from the Newly Betrayed Posters thread.

I need to shut my mouth.

At least I havent apologized once for telling everyone.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:41 AM
BT good morning.

Yes you do need to try to eat and get some sleep, that little one will not allow you to sleep during the day smile , and you need to be at your best right now. Trust me when i say that i know how difficult that can be when you feel like you are going to puke......

It is okay if you stumble just get back on that horse.

Read up on everything you can here and she is following the wayward script to a tee. The vets on here will be able to tell you what she is going to say before she says it, it has happened so many times.

I can bet you that their weekend is not pleasant right now and i am really surprised she did not want to end it, it is probably more that she didn't come home because that is what you wanted her to do. And she will say more and more of this stuff so be prepared.

Just make sure you let her know that she will not be taking your son anywhere.....
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:43 AM
And you are correct, you are not sorry about any of this, you are trying to save your marriage and it can not be saved with the OM in it....

And i agree with Marsh, that yes you may have contributed to the state of your marriage, but it is not your fault she had an A. That is ALL on her.....
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:50 AM
BT i also wanted to tell you that things are usually slow here on the weekends so don't think anyone has deserted you. Even though i signed on to check on you this morning.......

I promise these folks will help you through this if you listen to their advice.

Just keep breathing and taking care of yourself and that beautiful little boy of yours......
Posted By: Vittoria Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:52 AM
One of the hardest things that you will deal with right now, is yes, keeping your mouth shut from spewing your own frustrations at her.

It will take every fibre in you to not lovebust your emotions. Do not get into a pissing contest. Ignore anything that she says to try to bait you into one.


Here are some bits from the stick part of Plan A.
Quote
Offering forgiveness and understanding.

By this I mean .... suggesting to the confused foggy affair-addicted spouse that there is HOPE for the marriage even though what they are doing is awful ... there is a map leading to home

Often their thinking is thus: "It's too late now. I've done too much damage ... my spouse could never forgive me, so I might as well continue with the affair."

You, the sane spouse, need to squash that belief that they can never be forgiven for what they have done.
You do not need to forgive them right away, but offer them the hope of a future where all is forgiven.

You can word it something like this:

All of us do things we regret. When I think of some of my past mistakes, I am extremely grateful for having been forgiven by those I've hurt. I want to be in the position to offer you that same grace. I have been forgiven, so I understand what it feels like to be in a position where you hope forgiveness is possible. It is possible.
Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.


Quote
Plan A is often misunderstood as "acting nice"

excuse me acting "nice' in the face of an affair makes me want to puke

Plan A is taking control of one's self ...it is NOT "acting nice" ~as if~ there was no infidelity eating away at your family .... infidelity hurts like battery acid poured on your skin

am I right?

heII yes I am right

so you scared and panicky betrayed ~~~> SPEAK UP

tell the truth

"This affair hurts me. This affair is going to destroy our family. Let's get help."

If your spouse does something really thoughtless ... SPEAK UP.

"What you just said (did) hurts me terribly."

"I feel wounded by your affair."

"My heart aches for the love we used to share."

But be careful ... don't get needy or whiney or weepy ... those are love-busters

it's a fine line between telling the truth about what hurts ... and staying away from LB behaviors

ASK for help from the board

if you are unsure if what you are doing is correct... examine how much self control you have at any given moment ... and if you are feeling in control of yourself ... you are probably right on the money !

if you feel yourself losing control ... step away and re-group
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:58 AM
Lil man is awake giving me kisses. Hes not very good at it yet

=D

I am going to the bank today when it opens to move money around.

Is there anyway to put it in an account linked to my debit card, but not hers?

I dont NEED the debit card, I just want her to not be able to freely access money right now.

Also, OMW doesnt want to tell OM that she knows yet, and while I disagree, I am not going to disrespect her decision at this time. So that is a major source of pressure that is not being brought to bear.

Lastly, WW mother and grandmother seem to be mostly in shock, sending texts to me saying, "there is nothing to do, God knows, we are praying and trusting in him."

I know there are many religious people on here, and I do not in any way intend to offend you guys, but I personally do not understand what I call the "head in the sand, do nothing, it will all go away, if anyone asks we are praying" idea.

Please help me understand this somehow, I dont want to DJ them, I am sure they think that is "helping" or something, I just dont know, I dont understand the mentality. Help...

I cannot, just CANNOT BELIEVE, that any alien could mind control my WW so badly that she is abandoning her son.

Unbelievable. She had terrible mothering instincts (in a good way), very protective, always reading stuff, watching him etc etc. Its like she doesnt care about him now. Me I can understand, obviously I am the villain here and all this is my fault (according to her), but her son...

I...

I guess I just dont understand.

Is that what living with meth addicts is like?
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:10 PM
Originally Posted by BT
I said, you cant trust me? WW, you are abandoning your son to cheat on your husband. Let me put our son on the phone so you can explain to him why you arent home.
Now this I think was good. Let the consequences of the choices of the ES fall squarely on the shoulders of the WS. Make the whole battle cry one of family.
Originally Posted by BT
She said, he doesnt know, why would I talk to him, he doesnt know whats going on
So for her the solution is to not tell him and hope he doesn't ask so she can convince him that his daddy was a monster and she just had to get away from him...

What I actually find humorous these days is that when my wife and I are watching TV or a movie and one of the characters starts spouting this wayward alien fog babble crap, we sit there and laugh, look at each other and can even predict what is going to be said next. Even the Hollywood writers know this stuff, they just don't get the idea of being faithful as the ideal and any cheating being wrong.

BT, remain calm and don't wait for her to come home on Monday before getting yourself focused. She will likely be home much earlier than she thinks. Her good times are done for the weekend. She and OM have been busted, busted together, caught in the act, the fantasy has vaporized and now the love birds have to lay out the logic and justification together in order to even make this be OK for them to continue.

Trust me on this, the affair is doomed. The question now is whether or not she can find a reason to work on the marriage instead of living life on the run from reality. Be that reason, BT. Be her lighthouse. Be her hero. Be the place she can run to instead of away from.

I remember those lonely nights, BT. If I let myself focus on those dark days I can still feel the fear, the pain and the anger.

If you have a bible handy, read Psalm 102:1-11. Describes the lot of a BS pretty well, I think. But now read verse 12.

You will be OK, BT.

And Marsh and I are till thinking alike and SC is still seeing the same things too. You did not cause this. All those complaints and things she said about not loving you, the marriage being over and you being neglectful, controlling etc all have to do with her attempts to reconcile in her own inner self the two sides of this. She is married and is cheating on her husband.

Even alien WS logic can't make this the right thing to do. So they try to make it into something more palatable like a bad marriage that is already ended; they always use this idea that from their POV the marriage is over so they can feel better about what they are doing. They try to make the life of the BS so miserable that the BS files for divorce "He abandoned me. I didn't walk away." And they will constantly try to convince the BS that "this has nothing to do with OM/OW." If they can get themselves to believe that, they can continue and not feel like they need to be ashamed.

Eventually they will come to a place where they will say this isn't about OM; it's about us. Then they will say it isn't about us; it's about me. That is often the beginning of an awakening when they admit to themselves that what they are doing is purely selfish. Some soon after see how wrong this is but some others think being that selfish is perfectly alright. But at that instant they must make a decision to do right or to do wrong and even a WS alien can tell the difference at that point.

Mark
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:10 PM
Yes unfortunately it is BT, she is only out to get her fix right now......
Posted By: Scotland Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:13 PM
I personally don't know what it is like living with a meth addict. DrH says that an affair is an addiction and the people living in affairs are like drug addicts and I believe.

You have done very well. You can do this.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:15 PM
Great post Mark....

Read that one over BT....
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Deputy said that well, the only definitive proof is if one of them admits to that, and we probably wont get that so we cant expect it.

I think they want to catch them, but I dont really care.

On top of that, he is a contractor, a temporary worker filling a temporary position, with a group that has already had 3 people fired out of I think 15-20 employees, and that company is ANXIOUS to avoid attention.

I dont plan to let them listen.

Morning BT,

Deputy is an idiot. Don't go soft on us BT, he is a contractor? You immediately write a letter to the top people as well as HR of the contracting company and expose to them, tell them you are considering legal action against their company and tell them you have the proof on tape.

SWW
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Lastly, WW mother and grandmother seem to be mostly in shock, sending texts to me saying, "there is nothing to do, God knows, we are praying and trusting in him."

I know there are many religious people on here, and I do not in any way intend to offend you guys, but I personally do not understand what I call the "head in the sand, do nothing, it will all go away, if anyone asks we are praying" idea.

Please help me understand this somehow, I dont want to DJ them, I am sure they think that is "helping" or something, I just dont know, I dont understand the mentality. Help...

I guess I just dont understand.


BT,

I believe if you asked them they would not say they are sticking their heads in the sand.

I believe that we do all we can do and at a certain point, well, we have done all we can do. At that point we turn to the Lord and say, �Lord, I have done all I can do. From this point forward I am placing this in your hands. Only You are capable of solving this problem, I can�t. I need You and Your help, guidance and wisdom. Thank You.�

You are doing all you can and doing great, but you alone cannot change your WW�s heart. He can though and you would do well to include Him in on this if you are willing. This is a great opportunity for Spiritual growth BT if you are willing.

You asked the question, that is my personal thought on the matter.

SWW

Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: My thread - 05/29/10 12:48 PM
Good luck to you today BT (or is it Sir BT now?) smile.

Many battles lay ahead of you. Remember that as you follow the advice on this thread to deal with your WW to save your M, her bahavior will be predictable, and your feelings and fears will be too, so keep reaching out for support here. We have been there and recognize your pain.

Slay those enemies with your awesomeness. When you don't feel awesome for yourself, lean on the awesomeness of your fatherhood.

Remember, you may not "feel" like you won the battle after an exchange with WW (even though you likely did but it just doesn't feel that way), you are here to win the war. Your convictions are very clear in your posts. You will make it through this.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:11 PM
Thanks you guys, and thank you SWW for your post on God. I dont know that I can do that, I feel like I only just recently resolved anger and hate for him, not sure I can reach out to him with trust. Maybe...

Mark, as ever, thank you so much.

SWW, on the deputy, he wasnt saying he doesnt believe, he was just saying something about when you investigate something there are 5 categories of evidence, and the highest one is confession by guilty party.

I dont know what they might have asked, but I wont know, because OM admitted it to the Major last night, admitted he was with her, and when told "dont come back to work," OM responded with, "well, guess I am gonna enjoy my weekend then, g'night."

So now I have a USMC Major and a GS-13 Government Deputy to testify for me, in addition to the audio, phone records, and all the corraborating evidence from OMW who we mutually agreed to testify for eachother to identify the voices on the audio and other stuff, if it came to that.

I feel like I have enough even for a court.

Too bad its Mem Day weekend, and I cant call lawyers. I want to secure my house and do something to get temp sole custody for my son so she cant do anything to hurt him.

She can come, I can Plan A, but I dont trust her.
Not for a second. Not with my son, not with my property, not for anything.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:14 PM
Ok, going to the bank now, any advice for when I get back on what to expect / think next?

I feel like the phone conversations werent NEARLY what is coming. She was trying to be very flippant and uncaring, but I could hear the edge of panic in her voice when she kept asking, "Who all did you tell?" I wonder if she is wondering if I got a hold of her dad.

I think when she gets home the sh^^ storm is REALLY gonna start. I dont know what I think now that she is choosing to stay out with him all weekend and abandon her son.

That hurts really deep, for me and our marriage, and me as a father...

I will hopefully be talking to her dad soon enough.

Will be back in an hour or so.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Day 2...
She didnt come home last night.

That hurts a lot more than I thought it would.

She abandoned her son to stay out with him...

I wish I knew what happened to my wife. WW isnt her, she is an alien for sure. I hope to see my wife again someday. I miss her.

As much as it hurts, BT, you need to do this kind of thinking.

You need to stop blaming yourself for the hell you've been through, and start rethinking and rewriting your recent history together. You've been telling yourself (and accepting the lies that WW told you) that it has been all your fault, now you need to start telling yourself that it was the A that was causing the hell.

Here's a Do's and Don't list Mr. W brought here...

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

Print it out and carry it in your wallet so you can read it and reread it.

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:33 PM
Quote
Lastly, WW mother and grandmother seem to be mostly in shock, sending texts to me saying, "there is nothing to do, God knows, we are praying and trusting in him."

I know there are many religious people on here, and I do not in any way intend to offend you guys, but I personally do not understand what I call the "head in the sand, do nothing, it will all go away, if anyone asks we are praying" idea.

Please help me understand this somehow, I dont want to DJ them, I am sure they think that is "helping" or something, I just dont know, I dont understand the mentality. Help...


BT, Be grateful WW's mother and grandmother ARE on your side. That is VERY VERY rare!

Just thank them very much for their support and their prayers. Their disapproval of your WW's A will suck a great deal of the fun out of her A.

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:42 PM
Quote
Ok, going to the bank now, any advice for when I get back on what to expect / think next?


Start keeping a journal. You need to keep this in case you need to fight for custody.

Record the dates and times of events, but leave out any of your feelings or opinions.

Example: On May 28th at X time, WW left son w/ me to go camping w/ OM. Did not come home until May 31st at X time.

On May 29th, I took son to zoo/movie/park, On May 30th, I took son to church...

Also include the time she spends on the phone w/ OM while she is w/ your son. So watch her phone records.

Keep this journal hidden from WW. And don't let her find this thread! Erase your history on the computer when you leave this web site.

Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:43 PM
You have got to get the OMW to let you tell the OM that his wife knows.

Because most likely the OM will throw your WW under the truck to scramble home to do damage control.

Most OM use WW's only for sex. They have no intention of giving up their BW. Hell, this OM will not dump a BW that keeps putting up with his crap.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/29/10 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I think when she gets home the sh^^ storm is REALLY gonna start. I dont know what I think now that she is choosing to stay out with him all weekend and abandon her son.

That hurts really deep, for me and our marriage, and me as a father...

I know. I was kind of afraid of that, it means this is a deeply ingrained emotional and physical affair. The best thing that can happen is if she is furious, because that will indicate that she has at least an ounce of shame over what she has done. It is far worse if she is just, "well, you did what you thought you had to do, doesn't change anything."

But again, you are taking all the right actions, you just can't control her responses. It is good the OM is out of a job, he won't be able to take care of her need for financial support.

I like Marsh's posts on the Do's and Dont's by the way. Very good stuff.

SWW

PS No Matter What, do NOT leave your house short of a deputy sheriff hauling you out. Stay in your marital bed, you did nothing wrong. Keep the VAR on you in case she gets the idea of filing a restraining order agianst you.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:04 PM
Also...When your WW asks you why you moved your money, tell her you can not risk her putting your family's finacial sitch in jeopardy.

Posted By: MrWondering Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:07 PM
If OMW hasn't yet revealled that to OM that she knows

AND

BOTH you and her want your spouses home and are willing to play along

THEN

Send OM a text saying:

"Is [OMW's first name] phone # _____ and email ______@yahoo.com??? If my wife isn't home by ___pm tonight I will be calling and sending your wife the nanny cam video of my bedroom last week. U have been warned."

Mr. W

edited to add: It would be better if OMW just called and told OM she knows where he is and what he's doing and he better get his butt home NOW. However, she likely wants to get her mind around the situation, prepare and have a face to face confrontation without him knowing she knows. Thus...the above suggestion.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:13 PM
Hi BT,

You are really a model husband and father for doing the right things to attempt to kill this affair and protect your marriage and your family.

Marshmallow is exactly correct in stating the ways to act and not to react. I have had to involuntarily admit my wife to a hospital twice during our marriage for psychotic episodes. While it was not the same as an affair, her reactions were much the same as a WW's - hostility, blaming, etc. I just learned to endure that and to be suuportive by knowing that I did the right thing to protect her and us. In a short while her 'fog' lifted through proper medication and treatment.

I believe you can open a new account in your name (including debit card privileges), and withdraw most of the funds from your joint account to transfer to the new account. Your wife would not have access to this account. I had to do that once as well when my wife in one of her manic episodes became spendthrifty. You most likely know this now after your bank visit.

BT, for the rest of the weekend now while you gird yourself for the coming storm when she returns, what things can you do with your son for enjoyment? I think you need that now just to renew yourself. I can't remember how old your son is, but how about a baseball game (even a minor league game if there is a team nearby), a bike ride, an amusement park, a swimming pool, shop for and show him how to plant flowers or vegetables - anythings that will help reduce the stress and and provide an alternative of some enjoyment. Do you have a priest, minister or rabbi you know and trust and can talk to briefly this weekend just for face to face affirmation that you are not to blame for her potential reactions?

Just prayers and good luck BT.

By the way BT I am muddling through trying to raise my first garden in ten years, and this morning when I went out to water it I noticed a little green sphere about half an inch in diamiture that looks like a tomato....*S*. I am excited.

Tom


Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Lil Lastly, WW mother and grandmother seem to be mostly in shock, sending texts to me saying, "there is nothing to do, God knows, we are praying and trusting in him."

BT, tell them there is much they can do, such as call your WW and try to talk some sense into her. They can also call the OM and talk to him.

When will the OMW be telling him? It is part of your strategy to let them know this weekend so it ruins their weekend together. Tell her this.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:25 PM
Whatever you do...stay calm.

In the court of public opinion and possibly in court someday she (and her attorney) will be portraying the current events as you behaving like a raving controlling vindictive lunatic.

Keep notes of who you called, what was said and when you spoke to them. You never know if one or more of these people will end up on her side testifying about such conversations and making you out to be a madman. Your notes will be admissable and will portray your intent and your demeanor.

Your intent is/was: seeking help for your crazy wayward wife and family.

Mr. W
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:26 PM
See, its extremely important to your strategy that the infidels know NOW that the OMW knows so that these exposures hit like a TSUNAMI. You need to tell them TODAY before they have a chance to regroup, BT. The OMW is stealing your tsunami and that can't be.

The cheaters should know as soon as possible the entire list of exposure targets so it washes over them like a tsunami. Its not enough to just expose, they have to KNOW to whom they are exposed.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
See, its extremely important to your strategy that the infidels know NOW that the OMW knows so that these exposures hit like a TSUNAMI. You need to tell them TODAY before they have a chance to regroup, BT. The OMW is stealing your tsunami and that can't be.

I agree. If OMW is finished w/ her M, then she's not on the same page as you are.

You need to do what is in the best interest of YOUR family.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Lil Lastly, WW mother and grandmother seem to be mostly in shock, sending texts to me saying, "there is nothing to do, God knows, we are praying and trusting in him."

BT, tell them there is much they can do, such as call your WW and try to talk some sense into her. They can also call the OM and talk to him.

When will the OMW be telling him? It is part of your strategy to let them know this weekend so it ruins their weekend together. Tell her this.


I missed this, I thought they had called or texted her. BT, please ask them to call her and tell her to return home to her H and son.

Why does the OMW not want to call her cheating H? I thought this a complete shock to her.

SWW
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:48 PM
Quote
Why does the OMW not want to call her cheating H? I thought this a complete shock to her.

BT said OMW wants to change the locks on her house.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Quote
Why does the OMW not want to call her cheating H? I thought this a complete shock to her.

BT said OMW wants to change the locks on her house.

ok, she can have that done by noon. BT, is she doing that right now? You need this exposure done today. It is critical to your strategy.

How far away from the camp ground does the OMW live?
Posted By: Mulan Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:08 PM
Quote
Good news, she has said she wants to be friends and make this amicable. She says we have a child to raise and have to do it together even though we wont be married.

Oh, no ya don't - do not fall into this trap!

If she wants to be "friends", it's only because she wants to be able to destroy her family and feel good about it.

I know you have a lot going on but when you get a minute, please take a look at this MB thread titled "The Fantasy of Divorce":

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2275600#Post2275600




Posted By: Mulan Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I know there are many religious people on here, and I do not in any way intend to offend you guys, but I personally do not understand what I call the "head in the sand, do nothing, it will all go away, if anyone asks we are praying" idea.

Please help me understand this somehow, I dont want to DJ them, I am sure they think that is "helping" or something, I just dont know, I dont understand the mentality. Help...

We all know that WS go batsh*t when they are exposed, because now the world knows that they are liars and cheaters.

Someone here wisely pointed out that when friends and relatives of the WS are told of the affair, they too are "exposed" - in the sense that if they knew, or suspected, and did nothing, they have also been "exposed" as people who tacitly support adultery.

This explains the anger and withdrawal from said friends and relatives that often follows their being told of the WS's adultery.

Quote
I cannot, just CANNOT BELIEVE, that any alien could mind control my WW so badly that she is abandoning her son.

Addiction can do that, BT. Addiction takes many forms. Even Dr. Harley says that adultery is a form of addiction - either addiction to the fantasy of one particular person (as in your WW's case) or, sometimes, as full-on sex addiction.

Quote
Is that what living with meth addicts is like?

By all accounts, yes. You got it.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:32 PM
About the $$$ .....

Make a notation in your truth journal:

Date
transferred (amount) from ( account) to (account)
Reason: possible security compromise of account #1


WELL DONE YOU !!!
Stay frosty.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:32 PM
Wow - so I go to bed and get up to all this! Way to go, BT! (Sir.) You, my friend, will be held up to newbies as an example of someone who did it right.

If I may, though, I would suggest that you let the adulterers know that everyone knows, including OMW. That's one of the reasons your WW asked you who you told - OM told her to ask you. This will only strengthen your plan. I don't know that OMW is changing the locks - that sounds a little premature, when she's only heard this from you and hasn't confirmed it with OM. Hell's bells, buddy - I'd tell them I just stopped short of renting a billboard out by Highway 9! Let them deal with the fallout of your honesty!

Hopefully you've cut off her fun money by now, yes? Leave enough in the joint account so she can't claim you 'left her destitute.' Fifty bucks ought to do it. Cancel the credit cards - if there's a balance you won't be able to, so tell your cc company you want the limit to be whatever the balance is.

They are still together, mapping out damage control. This will not be the romantic weekend they had originally planned, now will it. wink You have definitely thrown a damper on that little getaway!

My call? She'll be home before Monday because OM won't last after he finds out his W knows. Because you're going to tell them. Right?

She will be furious. See if you can get child care on call. And then stay calm in the face of her storm. It WILL subside. Tell her everything you've done - financial support for funding the A has been cut, everyone knows, OM is fired. Because you will do whatever it takes to save your M.

You are a MARITAL WARRIOR, BT! hurray
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:40 PM
My suggestion regarding OMW:

Call OMW and give her your WW's cell phone #.

OMW will not be able to resist calling.

The phone will need to die eventually anyway, might as well put it to good use killing the adultery now.
grin


Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:41 PM
Quote
I don't know that OMW is changing the locks - that sounds a little premature, when she's only heard this from you and hasn't confirmed it with OM.


She ID'd her WH's voice in the rutting recording BT played for her.

She also knows she's not working like he said he was... She confirmed that he wasn't working w/ his employers.

But, you're right. She may change her mind about saving her M.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 03:50 PM
And BT? Remember Regan, the possessed kid in The Exorcist? That may be what's coming home to you. She'll be livid - she'll be coming down hard off her crack high. Expect all kinds of outlandish things to come out of this alien's mouth: she's never loved you, she was only in the M for your son, the M had a chance but you've ruined it now, it's all your fault, blah blah blah. Disregard this - addicts say a lot of things when they're mired in their drug and can't get another hit.

Stay calm and focused. No, you can't control her, but you can control yourself. And you will do whatever it takes to save your M.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/29/10 04:06 PM
When WW gets home, you will need that VAR handy.
Like in your pocket.
If things get super heated, WW starts yelling, making threats, whatever, you will be wise to have that sort of conversation recorded.

If necessary, have a friend on standby, to come over to be a witness.

The enraged WW alien is capable of making false claims of abuse.

You need to be 100% in control of yourself.

If you feel a swelling of rage, lock yourself in the bathroom until it passes.

Have your cell phone ready.
Call a friend and have them listen in if you cannot have a witness in the flesh.

Call OMW, give OMW your WW's phone #.



Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 04:24 PM
Don't want to overload you, BT, but also: she may want to storm out in a huff. That's her right. But your son doesn't go - he stays with YOU.

So let her storm off. With Nothing. She'll be back.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 05:20 PM
BT, something else to think on. Your wife is excusing her adultery with " I asked for a divorce last September. " I believe you have adopted this screwy line of thinking. "Asking for a divorce" is not an entitlement for adultery. Adultery is adultery.

If she believes that "asking for a divorce" will excuse her adultery, then she can explain her reasoning to a North Carolina judge and see how damn far that gets her.

If she says this to you again look at her with shock and say "ADULTERY IS ADULTERY. We are married."

I think this is how she has justified it in her mind and this is nothing more than a manipulative play on words. She also "asked you for a divorce" so you would be scared into giving her space to carry on her adultery. It worked!

This is another example of why you must look at her ACTIONS and ignore her words. The truth is that she is married woman and having an affair while married is ADULTERY. Her silly words do not change that.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I think this is how she has justified it in her mind and this is nothing more than a manipulative play on words. She also "asked you for a divorce" so you would be scared into giving her space to carry on her adultery. It worked!

And all her threatening to leave you "faster" if you don't back off...was all MANIPULATIONS.

She has been manipulationg the hell ot of you.

When she got nervous that you were looking at her phone records, she told OM about it. And HE got so nervous that he actually came over to help smooth out your fears about the two of them.

What his actions showed you was that his intentions have never been to take your WW away from you. He just wanted to use her. And he wanted to keep you in the dark so he could do it w/o much hassle.

When she comes home and threatens to leave you say, "There's the door, you are free to leave any time, but our son stays here."

Call her on her threat. B/c that's all it is.

Quote
This is another example of why you must look at her ACTIONS and ignore her words.


Absolutely!

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 05:53 PM
Quote
BT, something else to think on. Your wife is excusing her adultery with " I asked for a divorce last September. " I believe you have adopted this screwy line of thinking. "Asking for a divorce" is not an entitlement for adultery. Adultery is adultery.


Good point, Mel.

She definitely believes that asking BT for a D equals getting D.

There! I asked him for a D, now I can do as I please!



Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/29/10 06:01 PM
Hopefully we are not overloading you with info.

Here's one more tid-bit.

NEVER call OM by name.

ALWAYS refer to OM as "Kathy's husband".
Or whatever OMW first name is.

Do not call OM nasty names in front of your wife. Here on the forum, call him whatever you like.
In front of WW it is "Kathy's husband".

Posted By: Tom2010 Re: My thread - 05/29/10 06:18 PM
Hi again BT,

I hope you are able to get some R&R time in today before your W gets home.

I have to think that the subdued responses from both your W and OM indicate that they are now pretty frightened and shocked after your unexpected and swift exposure. I think that the OM now Has to feel like a guy did in a 'stupid criminal' story I read about awhile back. The guy tried to get into a restaurant thru a vent to rob it and ended up stuck at the lower end of the vent right above the oven for the weekend. He was discoverd on Monday morning. From your W's standpoint she must feel shocked and frightened too. She not only saw her 'beautiful' AP totally dismantled by her H right in front of her eyes (lost his job, temporary living quarters, and maybe his M), but she is most likely stunned and worried now about no longer being able to manipulate you. This doesn't mean that she is not going to hit home like an F5 tornado and continue to berate and manipulate you and justify her A. I just think she has to be afraid of what you will do next, and that psychologically at least you have the advantage.

Take care...

Tom
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 09:54 PM
Ok...

I do plan to call OMW and tell her I need for it to be exposed now.

I will refer to OMW as "Kathy's husband" (insert correct name), good suggestion.

No NO NO NO!!

I have NOT bought into the line of "she asked for divorce, so that means its ok." Her best friend called after getting a text from WW, saying that she had told me she was leaving.

I told BFF, ok, does that make it ok? Does it make it ok for her to say she is leaving, but continue to enjoy the house and life I provide her while inviting another man to have sex with her on our bed?

Obviously BFF totally got the point and is still firmly disappointed in WW. She keeps saying WW sounds just weird and not like herself.

I am hoping this BFF really is a BFF and will LISTEN to WW and let her try to explain stuff, and call her on it. I am pretty sure if WW hears her rationalizations out loud out of her mouth and not from OMs mouth, she will wake up pretty quick.

If not, whatever.

She does not leave with my son.

I just had friends over for about 4 hours, invited another couple over. Both know.

Forgot to expose to the neighbors, will do that tonight I think, so they can watch for white trucks with ranger stickers on them and call the cops for me.

I am trying to get a few families / couples as "friends" that I can invite over and then go visit with WW so that she can get out and have appropriate friends and not be stuck in the house, as part of my Plan A. So she sees I am not just better with her, but also as a person with EVERYONE. Also so that she can be around them.

The couple I had over today, I didnt know, but both have cheated on eachother, without MB, but knew instinctively what ENs and LBs are, the Affair Fog, and how important honesty and trust are to recovery.

I didnt use MB terms when talking to them, but it all married up. Very proud of them for being a RL family saved by honesty and POJA.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/29/10 10:06 PM
Quote
Ok...

I do plan to call OMW and tell her I need for it to be exposed now.

Give OMW your wife's phone #.

If you ask 100 BWs on this board what they would do if they had OWs phone # right after D day, most would call OW and tear her a new one.

It will make the affair most unpleasant for both the adulterers.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I do plan to call OMW and tell her I need for it to be exposed now.


BT, tell her that your exposure plan requires that you call your WW TODAY and bring up the fact that the OMW knows about the affair. You want to give her the opportunity to talk to her H FIRST, but you HAVE TO do this today. This is a CRITICAL COMPONENT of your exposure and you cannot afford to dribble this exposure out and give them time to regroup.

Tell her that it is best to do a nuclear exposure on her side NOW while you have them on the ropes. This is a very short window of opportunity.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/29/10 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
[
Give OMW your wife's phone #.

DITTO!!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/29/10 10:10 PM
PS

You're doing great !

Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 10:53 PM
WOW!

OMW just called. She said she is telling her 15 and 20 yr old that live at home. Without MB terms, I suggested the power of exposure and asked that she finish the blow to this affair, letting OM know she knows.

I also told her she should probably expose to his whole family too, since worst case, they dont believe her and take his side anyway, best case, at least some of them are disgusted enough with him to let him know.

She agreed.

She told her son, and her son is calling OM now to confront him about it.

So, in short order, OMs last possible line of defense (OM: my wife doesnt know, maybe we can ......) is getting blown away...
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 10:54 PM
PS: she called right as I was gonna call, wierd...
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/29/10 10:56 PM
I wish I could feel good about this. I thought I would.

I want to throw up again...

god... it hurts. I still cant believe she is abandoning her son over this.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:15 PM
Many are praying for you, BT.

Hang in there! You're doing great!

You WILL make it!

Just one warning...make sure OMW keeps MB a secret from her WH. You don't want OM or WW finding your thread.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Hopefully we are not overloading you with info.

Here's one more tid-bit.

NEVER call OM by name.

ALWAYS refer to OM as "Kathy's husband".
Or whatever OMW first name is.

Do not call OM nasty names in front of your wife. Here on the forum, call him whatever you like.
In front of WW it is "Kathy's husband".

3X Yes. I never called my FWHs OP by her name. Never. And when we talked about the A I referred to incidents in which he was "having sex with another man's wife." Okay, total disclosure: I didn't say 'having sex' - there's another, grittier word that was more appropriate.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:22 PM
Hi BT,

You're not going to feel good about this - no one could, but you should at least feel good about the fact that you are doing all the right things despite the reason or situation.

Just wanted to say that if you have Melody, Pepperband, Marital, and others behind you, then you have a team equivelent to the Yankees $200MM payroll team. You also have the alliance with OMW to help you work both fronts.

For whatever is worth, said a prayer for you And your W this afternoon, that she would be at least begin to realize what a great guy she has, despite her wayward thinking.

And this is probably nonsensical to you now, but I discovered that there are now a couple of really tiny peppers forming on my pepper plants. Am happy, because I thought that I pretty much over-fertilized them a week ago.

Take care BT,

Tom



Posted By: _SOL Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:22 PM
Thanks for this one. I had been refering to OM by name. He will now be referred to as the husband of xxxxx.

BT- You are doing well by the way! Keep it up.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:27 PM
Back from 4 hours of UA time at the golf course with FWH - I ran to the laptop and left H to unload the golf bags - we're both rooting for you, BT!

OMW needs to expose - good job talking to her about that.

My bet: your WW will be home within 24 hours. Do not let her leave with your son. Hang tight.

Praying for you, BT - but you're doing great! hug
Posted By: Scotland Re: My thread - 05/29/10 11:51 PM
BT-You are doing a SPECTACULAR job. We are ALL pulling for you.

You are doing very well. I will tell you that you should give OMW your WW's number. I CALLED POSOW. I confronted her everytime I found something inappropriate. The last time was after I found out about the PA. It hurt but it was well worth it. laugh
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:04 AM
OMW doesnt know about MB. I dont use MB words with her, I translate into generic terms and express the concepts.

They still work, go figure.

Just exposed to the neighbors, so they know to call the cops if they see his truck. I told them to go ahead and do it regardless if they think I am home or not.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:05 AM
BT,

Good news about OM's wife and his son calling him. The pressure is intense now on this affair.

I hear you about wanting to vomit. Believe me, you have a long road of that in front of you with tears and triggers, worry about that later.

Try to sleep and take care of your son.

Everything is going to plan. You are doing the best thing you can to save your marriage and family.

Nothing you have done is wrong and dont let your WW even get a toe hold in your mind. If you had not done what you did, your WW would be moving in with OM with your son with OM still employed and you would have lost everything.

You are doing great, we are all proud of you.

SWW

Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
OMW doesnt know about MB. I dont use MB words with her, I translate into generic terms and express the concepts.

They still work, go figure.

Just exposed to the neighbors, so they know to call the cops if they see his truck. I told them to go ahead and do it regardless if they think I am home or not.

She doesn't need to know about this site yet. You can tell her about it later. Keep going.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:22 AM
BT you are doing great!!!

Make sure you are trying to eat and try to get some sleep, when the little guy goes down you may want to try to rest a little bit too.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:47 AM
ok, I am stressing something.

TOM! BEFORE I FORGET! Congrats on the pepper and tomato

K, anyway...

when my WW comes home... what do I say?
She is going to try to act like since she was planning to leave anyway that what she is doing is ok and that I had no right to 'invade her privacy,' and that I am a horrible POS for doing that and she can never trust me again - yadda yadda FOG FOG WW SCRIPT FOG FOG, etc

So I know I shouldnt rise to the bait, I shouldnt argue or anything, I got that fantastic list of things to DO and NOT DO, but she might ask me questions that I maybe should answer and I dont want to do it wrong. Here are some I have thought of:

"why did you tell everyone?"
(Because if I did nothing I would be allowing it to continue. I did it to protect our son and because I value our marriage)

"what do you want from me?"
(I want you to end this affair and commit to our family)

"what dont you understand about me leaving?"
(I am here when you are ready to work on this marriage)

"what makes you think you have the right to do this to me(my mother)(my friends)etc, whichever she asks about?"
(I have a right to protect my family and defend my marriage from the things you are doing to harm them. When you are ready to work on this marriage, I am here.)

IDK, maybe I am getting the hang of it?

I kinda like the idea of the broken record method.

Calm, composed, dignified, "When you are ready to work on this marriage, I am here." Over and over, till it hopefully shines like a lighthouse through the fog.

I am getting some positive feedback from some of her friends that have contacted her. She hasnt responded to most of them.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:59 AM
Your pocket responses are good.

Also use the words:

"Our family"
"We are family"

Etc .... Instead of only mentioning "marriage".

Do not be afraid to respond in off topic ways.

WW: "I never loved you."

You: "I love our family."

You know not to say ILY during this time, ya?


Well, you sure as heck can say you love "Our family."

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/30/10 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
"what dont you understand about me leaving?"
(I am here when you are ready to work on this marriage)

ok, there is that line of thinking again that says "i threaten to leave = i have entitlement to cheat.":

If she excuses this with "i'm leaving" respond like like this.

"You may be leaving, but until we are divorced, we are married and this is adultery. WHEN WILL YOU WILL LEAVING?"

BT, I don't believe she has any intention of leaving anyway but has used this as an excuse to get "space" from you. I would remind her FIRMLY that you are married until you are divorced and if she is "leaving" you will sure hate to her go, but WHEN is she leaving?

Tell her that as long as she lives with you she is NOT FREE to carry on her adultery. DEMAND that she end her affair. DEMAND, don't ask. Be sure and tell her that in your state you have grounds for adultery and that you will not cooperate with any divorce schemes.

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/30/10 01:03 AM
Agree BT, just be a broken record, don't let her goad you into her anger (and believe me she will try).

Just remain calm and keep your focus........
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/30/10 01:12 AM
You did not invade her privacy. You invaded her SECRECY. There should be no secrecy in a marriage. Your responses are fine.

She is going to be totally on the defensive now. Maintain your composure and show her that her H has no intention of destroying your M, your family and the lives of OMW and her family.

She has no intention of divorcing you. Remember - she's an addict. You're going to help clean her up. And we'll be there to help you when you go into recovery. For now, stay calm. Be the Rock.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 01:21 AM
Ok, holy crap, just talked to WWs Dad... WWs best friend drove over to their house for me so he could use her phone...

YES!!

OK, so I guess WW talked to her dad for a bit a month and a half ago, and he told me he suspected she was up to [censored] just from talking to her, and told her "you better do right by your husband. You might not be beholden to him, but you are beholden to your vows, you better not do something stupid"

So, he is firmly in the camp of "WW WAKE UP."

I guess she mentioned coming out to see him in July or something.

I am wondering if maybe I should support that and send her out there. At this point, if I buy her ticket and drop her off at the airport, and her dad picks her up, I am even comfortable sending our son with her, since he would really like to see him. If FIL is firmly in the fight, then I think we really have a chance, and sending her to CA (from NC) might really be the ticket to ENFORCE NC.

IDK, what do you guys think? It gives some solid time to Plan A and such.

FIL says he will get a phone with the money I sent him and call me back in a couple days. He said he doesnt want to confront WW too much on the phone, and would prefer to get her down to go out and visit him before he lets loose on her in person.

Thoughts?

Thanks for the comments on dealing with her. I am just barely starting to have a glimmer of hope.

She has always worshipped her Dad, and I think he is a swell guy (seeing as we are a lot alike). Maybe just maybe...

I am trying not to crush the hope relentlessly, but it feels so nice to have that little flame inside...
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 01:24 AM
Oh yeah, and OMW has my WWs number (its in her phone records as much as OMs number is in my phone records).

So yeah, not sure what she will do with that.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/30/10 01:38 AM
Good!

Add, "Would you like a cookie" after responding to an outburst and you got it! No relationship talk for now, working on the marriage blah blah blah, just light hearted convo and reverse babble.

I tink' you gots it!

SWW
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 01:50 AM
Ok, talked to OMW again, I guess OM told OM'sSon that he would be home Wednesday... so they are staying out all weekend?

OMWs daughter wants to throw the news on facebook, and I offered to put it up as well, on both my page and my wifes for any last person who HASNT heard, and link to eachothers pages.

Thoughts?
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: My thread - 05/30/10 01:50 AM
BT,

You have been phenominal in protectiong your marriage.

Now, one of my childhood heroes was a pitcher named Warren Spahn. He pitched for the Milwaukee Braves way back when when the Braves were in Milwaukee. He could pitch fifteen innings and lose a game 0-1 or win a game 1-0, which he often did. Compared to the pantywaists of today, he was phenominal.

BT, you are not quite Warren Spahn yet. You're getting there, you're so close in terms of MB. You are in like the third inning and have a long long way to go. Like Spahnnie, you have a great team behind you. He had Mathews, Aaron, Adcock, and several others. You have a great team as well, including your relatives and friends and the MB vets, who I believe sincerely care about you And your wife.

Spahnnie needed an extra day of rest after pitching a long game, and I think you do too now. Relax, let your team now kick in and do some of the work. Watch a fun movie with your son, get to bed early.

Just my thoughts for you,

Tom
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/30/10 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok, talked to OMW again, I guess OM told OM'sSon that he would be home Wednesday... so they are staying out all weekend?

OMWs daughter wants to throw the news on facebook, and I offered to put it up as well, on both my page and my wifes for any last person who HASNT heard, and link to eachothers pages.

Thoughts?

DO IT!

After all they have nothing to be ashamed of right?

SWW
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/30/10 01:53 AM
BT you need to remove the name in your last post. And i am not sure about letting her take your son even if it is to her dad's house.

I will let the vets weigh in on that one but right now she is still going to be foggy and i am not sure if letting her leave the state with your son is a good idea.

She may try to use it against you some how, like you shipped her and your son off somewhere i dunno.....
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/30/10 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
BT you need to remove the name in your last post. And i am not sure about letting her take your son even if it is to her dad's house.

I will let the vets weigh in on that one but right now she is still going to be foggy and i am not sure if letting her leave the state with your son is a good idea.

She may try to use it against you some how, like you shipped her and your son off somewhere i dunno.....


WHAT?!!!

SON STAYS WITH YOU BT! PLEASE!

SWW
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok, talked to OMW again, I guess OM told OM'sSon that he would be home Wednesday... so they are staying out all weekend?

OMWs daughter wants to throw the news on facebook, and I offered to put it up as well, on both my page and my wifes for any last person who HASNT heard, and link to eachothers pages.

Thoughts?

Not sure if it means they are staying out or not but it sounds like it.

The longer she stays away the better your chances of getting sole custody of your son.......

As far as facebook i guess that is up to you, the exposure is to break up the A and needs to be anyone who can help. The OMW daughter will be posting nasty stuff about your wife i am sure......
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:03 AM
SWW from this post.....


Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok, holy crap, just talked to WWs Dad... WWs best friend drove over to their house for me so he could use her phone...

YES!!

OK, so I guess WW talked to her dad for a bit a month and a half ago, and he told me he suspected she was up to [censored] just from talking to her, and told her "you better do right by husband. You might not be beholden to him, but you are beholden to your vows, you better not do something stupid"

So, he is firmly in the camp of "WW WAKE UP."

I guess she mentioned coming out to see him in July or something.

I am wondering if maybe I should support that and send her out there. At this point, if I buy her ticket and drop her off at the airport, and her dad picks her up, I am even comfortable sending our son with her, since he would really like to see him. If FIL is firmly in the fight, then I think we really have a chance, and sending her to CA (from NC) might really be the ticket to ENFORCE NC.

IDK, what do you guys think? It gives some solid time to Plan A and such.

FIL says he will get a phone with the money I sent him and call me back in a couple days. He said he doesnt want to confront WW too much on the phone, and would prefer to get her down to go out and visit him before he lets loose on her in person.

Thoughts?

Thanks for the comments on dealing with her. I am just barely starting to have a glimmer of hope.

She has always worshipped her Dad, and I think he is a swell guy (seeing as we are a lot alike). Maybe just maybe...

I am trying not to crush the hope relentlessly, but it feels so nice to have that little flame inside...
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
SWW from this post.....


Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I am wondering if maybe I should support that and send her out there. At this point, if I buy her ticket and drop her off at the airport, and her dad picks her up, I am even comfortable sending our son with her, since he would really like to see him. If FIL is firmly in the fight, then I think we really have a chance, and sending her to CA (from NC) might really be the ticket to ENFORCE NC.

IDK, what do you guys think? It gives some solid time to Plan A and such.

Posession is nine points of the law BT! This is a volatile situation. You trust NO ONE but yourself, not your FIL, NO ONE BUT YOU WITH YOUR SON!

I mean it dude.

SWW
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:11 AM
BT.

"Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing" -
Warren Spahn. Source: "Brainy Quote".

Application: 'hitting' is the affair. Upsetting the affair is Your pitching.

Rest your arm....*s*

Tom


Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:13 AM
Quote
OK, so I guess WW talked to her dad for a bit a month and a half ago, and he told me he suspected she was up to [censored] just from talking to her, and told her "you better do right by BH. You might not be beholden to him, but you are beholden to your vows, you better not do something stupid"

Your WW doesn't need to repair her M with her Daddy. She needs to repair it with her husband. She IS beholden to you because she and you are your M. No. You do not send her to her father. If he thinks he can help, which is great - you both go.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:17 AM
maritalbliss that is what i was thinking too, it would actually be good for all of you to go together if your WW is willing......
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:27 AM
WOW!! Thank you guys so much, I hadnt even considered that.

We can still do MB over the phone from there too.

I still have appt Tues night.

OK OK TOM =D

Hey, whoever caught my slip with my name, thank you, there is a quote by Maritalbliss that still has it, if you wouldnt mind editing it out marital.

Sorry guys.

Ok Tom, your baseball stuff confuses me but I get the analogy. I am going to go to bed you guys, I dont believe she will come home.

So sad.

I slept in our bed last night. At first it was sickening, but then I changed the sheets and thought to myself, "I am not going to let that F**** take my bed from me." I felt a bit better, and it felt so good to sleep on a bed again after the couch.

I didnt realize it till now, but the couch always made me feel like I had done something wrong, but I didnt really feel like I had done anything wrong and it was very confusing.

I am so glad you guys convinced me to get a VAR. I dont know...

I dont know how I could ever repay that.

To all of you that 2x4d me over and over relentlessly, I thank you so much.

Some day, if we recover from this, I am going to show WW how much help you guys were. Not for a long time, not till I am sure I trust her, but I will, if she wants to see it.

I dont know where I would be if I hadnt found HNHN.

shudder....

((((((((((((((((((((((((everyone on mb forums)))))))))))))))))))))))))
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:31 AM
It was me BT and i changed it in your quote, it says husband....

And yes you need to get some sleep!!!!!

okay nevermind i see it now on maritalbliss
Posted By: _SOL Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:41 AM
BT- It is truly awesome to watch you grow stronger and stronger. You are doing great. Sleep in YOUR bed. Reclaim it.

One thing I told my WW when she questioned me about exposure was to say, I was just sharing the good news about your new found happiness. I was honest about it though. I never told her exactly what I said, but if she asked me if I talked to so and so, I would answer truthfuly.

Go get some well earned rest.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/30/10 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Hey, whoever caught my slip with my name, thank you, there is a quote by Maritalbliss that still has it, if you wouldnt mind editing it out marital.

Got it, BT. I notified the Mods.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/30/10 03:27 AM
Sleep tight, BT. You and your little fellow. hug
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/30/10 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Hey, whoever caught my slip with my name, thank you, there is a quote by Maritalbliss that still has it, if you wouldnt mind editing it out marital.

Got it, BT. I notified the Mods.

MB, you can edit that post yourself. Just click on edit.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/30/10 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
MB, you can edit that post yourself. Just click on edit.
Thanks, Mel. I thought there was a time limit on editing. It's all good, BT.
Posted By: Chrysalis Re: My thread - 05/30/10 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
About the $$$ .....

Make a notation in your truth journal:

Date
transferred (amount) from ( account) to (account)
Reason: possible security compromise of account #1


WELL DONE YOU !!!
Stay frosty.

BT,

For the sake of having credible evidence, journals should be in spiral notebooks or bound blank books. No loose leaf. Just 1 day after another, recorded in a book that has pages that cannot be tampered with. Preferably in an assortment of pens/ink colors.... whatever came to hand that day. With cross outs and misspellings left in place.

You need your notes to reek of authenticity.
Posted By: Chrysalis Re: My thread - 05/30/10 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Hopefully we are not overloading you with info.

Here's one more tid-bit.

NEVER call OM by name.

ALWAYS refer to OM as "Kathy's husband".
Or whatever OMW first name is.

Do not call OM nasty names in front of your wife. Here on the forum, call him whatever you like.
In front of WW it is "Kathy's husband".

This is huge, do not underestimate it. You have a name. You are not a nameless "my husband" to your wife or her AP. You have a name. Never, never, never allow yourself to be demoted to "my husband." Trust me on this. Force them to use and confront your name. They hate to do that. It stirs their conscience. You must insist.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:03 AM
Ok, awake again.

Last night was bad... right before bed OMW Daughter sent a text saying her mom had said that OM has herpes and chlamydia.

Called her and asked to confirm, and she just said she heard that.

I will call OMW and see if I can confirm...

I dont know that I could forgive a whore if she came back bringing gifts that keep on giving.

A whore maybe, since that is a habit that can be changed.

But filth and disease - thats with you for life.

I think I will have to be tested too, since I dont remember the date of the last time we had SF (I didnt know it would be the last time then...).

I am going to hold on for a while, and I might hold on at least to break her fog because I love her and dont like to see her damaging and lowering herself.

But honestly... she did this.

Lots to think about.

I feel a lot better getting almost 6 hours of sleep.

Thank you to my aunt who talked to me so I didnt have to cry myself asleep alone.

I love you.
Posted By: Kenmoore14217 Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:37 AM
Please, if you have been cheated on, think you have been cheated on or have cheated.........GET TESTED.

Knowledge is power !
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:06 PM
I have bound (not spiral, hard cover bound) notebooks and used that for my journal. I am also using it record what I feed my son so I can balance his diet cuz I forget what breakfast was by dinner.... I figure it shows that I am parenting too I guess.

I posted a picture of OM on WW's and my facebook pages with a brief version of the exposure and request for help as the caption.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:21 PM
Talking to OMs family is just crazy.

He has nothing that she would want in a partner. He is a terrible father, his daughter wont speak to him, he misses all their birthdays, all 4 of them (3 kids and OMW) say he is never home and appears to make no effort to BE home.

They are nearly positive he has done this several times already, but they just never had positive proof.

Obviously he lies and cheats.

So, terrible father, liar, cheater, manipulative, dishonest...

It lets me know that FOR SURE this cannot last.

But she ate it all up and did this anyway.

I just cant believe it, even still. F*ing craziness. The worst dream I ever had.

This morning, my 16 month old woke up, opened his door and I waved from the bed. He came over and we slept for another half hour. I think he gets cold in the morning and thats why he is waking up before 7 am now.

I love him. I cant believe his mother is doing this to him.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:27 PM
OH NO!

WW just called... I dont know what to do!

I didnt answer it since I didnt know.

She probably has seen the posts on her facebook.

I am not going to answer if I dont have a plan.

Any thoughts?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:31 PM
I suppose I could answer and just let her talk? Do the fog thing? I dont know... sheesh... I keep thinking I got a good idea, but then the moment hits and its like I havent practiced so I forget everything.

I dont want to mess things up, but sheesh...

she didnt leave a voice message so I assume it wasnt going to be a nice phone call.
Posted By: Scotland Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:35 PM
Well, all you really have to remember is DON'T ENGAGE A WAYWARD. It is crazy making. Be your broken record. Other than that, if she becomes abusive or you become angered, hang up. It would be better to not say anything then to engage and love bust.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:45 PM
thanks Scotland
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:54 PM
It's perfectly OK not to take a call.
That is your prerogative.

If WW was having an emergency, she would have left a message.

Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:55 PM
Don't talk about your relationship.

Don't beg her to come back.

You just told the truth.

She wants to come back NC with the OM.

Let her rant.

Then change the subject but try and fill the need for conversation.

WW wants a D, tell her you don't talk D that's for your lawyer to do. You only talk marriage.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:56 PM
I wonder if OM and WW now know that OMW knows?
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/30/10 12:58 PM
"It's perfectly OK not to take a call.
That is your prerogative."

Pepper is a smart one.

We most often forget that we do not always have to respond and many times no response is the best course to take.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 01:40 PM
Yes, OM and WW know that OMW knows.

WW gets facebook on her phone, since she called me, I know she has seen that.

Also, OMs son called him last night after he found out about it.

Everyone knows, and now over 700 people on facebook can see a picture of OM on WWs walls with a brief exposure and request for help getting her to end the affair.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:51 PM
Has WW tried to contact you anymore?

Sometimes going dark will make a WW go nuts wondering what is going on back at the ranch. Enough to push her to come back ASAP.

Thing is she is most likely dependent on OM for transportation.
OM does not want to leave when he's getting laid and has a house full of anger family to face when he gets back to his house.

You have to let pressure of exposure to do it's work.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Talking to OMs family is just crazy.

He has nothing that she would want in a partner. He is a terrible father, his daughter wont speak to him, he misses all their birthdays, all 4 of them (3 kids and OMW) say he is never home and appears to make no effort to BE home.

They are nearly positive he has done this several times already, but they just never had positive proof.

Obviously he lies and cheats.

So, terrible father, liar, cheater, manipulative, dishonest...

It lets me know that FOR SURE this cannot last.

But she ate it all up and did this anyway.

I just cant believe it, even still. F*ing craziness. The worst dream I ever had.

This morning, my 16 month old woke up, opened his door and I waved from the bed. He came over and we slept for another half hour. I think he gets cold in the morning and thats why he is waking up before 7 am now.

I love him. I cant believe his mother is doing this to him.

Good morning BT

This does not surprise me either BT, waynerds usually affair down, way way down....

Your WW will do things that you will not believe and continue to do them unless the A ends and she has NC with OM for life.

Just keep doing what you are doing and do not panic, you are doing fine
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:52 PM
She called this morning at 0800, didnt leave a message.

No she is NOT dependant on him. She has our RAV4. I have my car, and the car seat.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:55 PM
BT remember you have been only thirty days. This will not be a thirty one day war.

Today not many posters will be here. We are not having company but have many projects to do. Will check in.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 05/30/10 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Has WW tried to contact you anymore?

Sometimes going dark will make a WW go nuts wondering what is going on back at the ranch. Enough to push her to come back ASAP.

Thing is she is most likely dependent on OM for transportation.
OM does not want to leave when he's getting laid and has a house full of anger family to face when he gets back to his house.

You have to let pressure of exposure to do it's work.

I doubt he is getting laid with all of what is going on, but agree with letting her wonder.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/30/10 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Has WW tried to contact you anymore?

Sometimes going dark will make a WW go nuts wondering what is going on back at the ranch. Enough to push her to come back ASAP.

Thing is she is most likely dependent on OM for transportation.
OM does not want to leave when he's getting laid and has a house full of anger family to face when he gets back to his house.

You have to let pressure of exposure to do it's work.

Good morning, BT. This post bears repeating. Exposure has turned the lights on in the Affair Crack House. The addicts aren't enjoying their high right now. Your WW is probably trying to contact you to rant and rave because she knows you've unleashed exposure. Nothing will be accomplished by engaging with her. Don't answer the phone. Like Pep said, if it's an emergency she will leave a message.

I suspect she will be home soon.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/30/10 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok, awake again.

Last night was bad... right before bed OMW Daughter sent a text saying her mom had said that OM has herpes and chlamydia.

Called her and asked to confirm, and she just said she heard that.

I will call OMW and see if I can confirm...
Yes, confirm. It sounds a little suspect, more like something a furious BW would say. However, do NOT discount it. You need to be tested.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 03:14 PM
k, if she wants to leave messeges I will check them.

OMW told me she got herpes when she was 17. OM has it.

I want to text WW and tell her.

I dont know if she will believe me, but I just, I feel like I have to tell her. If she is going to get it, she probably has it already, but I dont think its ok not to tell her. I still love her and dont want bad things to happen to her.

UPDATE: before I posted even, I did text WW. This might make recovery impossible. I just dont know anymore. I still love her, but I deserve better than diseased seconds.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/30/10 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
k, if she wants to leave messeges I will check them.

OMW told me she got herpes when she was 17. OM has it.

I want to text WW and tell her.

I dont know if she will believe me, but I just, I feel like I have to tell her. If she is going to get it, she probably has it already, but I dont think its ok not to tell her. I still love her and dont want bad things to happen to her.

UPDATE: before I posted even, I did text WW. This might make recovery impossible. I just dont know anymore. I still love her, but I deserve better than diseased seconds.

I would have suggested that you wait, but it doesn't really matter.
Choosing to recover is totally up to you. But I would suggest that you wait on that decision. You have plenty of time to decide.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/30/10 03:44 PM
BT, has the OMW called her H and told him she knows? Is he aware that she knows?
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: My thread - 05/30/10 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
This might make recovery impossible.

An incurable STD would certainly be a deal-breaker for me, but this is your M, not mine.

Since this has likely been going on for awhile, I strongly suggest that you get yourself tested ASAP.
Posted By: rwinger Re: My thread - 05/30/10 05:02 PM
Quote
I still love her, but I deserve better than diseased seconds.
good grief - what a mess


Been silently watching this unfold -

Cant emphasize enough that you should get tested asap after the holiday. OMW confession/information was a gift.

BT - you have done a great job regaining your self-respect and power under the circumstances. VAR must have been awful to hear but you know your reality now.

Its easy to over look the sex act when just talking about infidelity and affairs. To actually witness or listen is another item all together.

first thing first = keep pressure on the affair to bust it - once that mission is complete - picking up the pieces after the damage will be another ordeal to come.

Too soon for life altering decisions. Even if you divorce - dont let this OM in your son's life - that is your goal and you are doing great.

Like MIM mentioned - a life of condom sex would not be a future for me - what a mess
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/30/10 07:55 PM
Has BT left the building?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 09:48 PM
No, I been spending time with my son today.

Posting now while he nibbles on nuggets before bed time...
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 09:57 PM
Ok, so I sent her the text informing her of the Herpes, on the off chance that he hadnt mentioned it to her. If she reads it, he is probably gonna lie to her, but I wont know that till she says something.

At this point, what other pressure can I put on the affair?

She has one of my vehicles, so she has the power to go where she wants.

I talked to OMW. She was scared about OM coming home on wednesday. I said Why?
OMW: Because I dont know what he could do?
BT: Well, what do you fear he could do?
OMW: He could all the stuff, ransack the house and such. I cant stop him from coming in.
BT: Well, hmm, you could rent a storage unit, have your daughters fiance do it so he owns it, and then put your stuff that you think is valuable in it, pack up OMs stuff (or some of it) and then have a note for him that explains you dont want him around. Have a friend there to witness it if you dont want to be there. Right now they are out in the woods in fantasy land, and its easy to think its all just facebook.
You have moved the money, change the house. Let him walk into it and get punched in the face by a mostly empty place with his stuff packed and no one there to say "HI!" He might stay, he might not but that will certainly make it clear where you stand, if thats what you want.
OMW: Wow BT, thanks thats a great idea! I can save all the documentation and stuff I have too, put that in storage. I dont know, it comes in waves. My whole life is falling apart.
BT: OMW!! STOP IT RIGHT NOW! Your life is changing. You might not feel like you have anything, but you have moved the money, you are getting the house, and you can move the items. Think what OM has. No job, no income, no access to the money you have, and nothing in his house. You might not feel like you have much, but you have MUCH more than he does. You can do this. Every time you think that there is nothing you can do, you give up a piece of that power, but if you change that thought to a positive, and focus on all that you CAN control, you add another piece to that power. Your life is changing. I know there is uncertainty OMW, but you can do this. Dont sell yourself short.


OMW also wondered aloud how OM could so calmly tell his Son he would be home on Wed "like nothing had happened."
I said, "Well, he has a scared 24 yr old girl he has to reassure that her world is NOT in fact falling apart, so he HAS to appear calm, composed and in control, or he wont get his "fun" weekend."
OMW: I suppose thats probably right. Man he is such a ............. (yeah, fill it in, wont type it, it just gets censored anyway...)
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 10:08 PM
All right, so another thing I have been trying very hard on a constant basis is look for positives.

I have always been able to spot negatives fast. Reasons something wouldnt work or how it could go bad. It helps me in my job because it prevents students from getting injured since I watch them and can just extrapolate immediately how what they are doing is about to end in a chopped off arm or something.

But

it doesnt make me a very positive person which doesnt make me very pleasant to be around.

So I have been working this "muscle" of spotting positives. I am getting good at it, just have to stop and try a bit, and several come to me and I dont have to try as hard anymore either.

With everything I have learned during this affair, I have not had a problem finding a positive in it, or some way to make it positive, or a way to react to it positively. I have had no problems finding a way that I could see us a family again and happy, if she is willing to get with the program.

Until the herpes thing.

I got nothing.

She hasnt been tested, and I wont know until we both have been and come up clean, but I am trying to think if there is a way we could hold this together if she gets positive.

Even if she turned 180 and became the greatest partner ever dreamed of, SF is important to me. It has killed me to not have anything these last couple months. KILLED ME. If I was allowed to, I would be a 7 days a week, several times a day kinda guy. She could meet and exceed all 9 ENs for me to a stellar degree, but I just cant see a positive that would allow me to be ok with SF if she tests positive.

At first I thought, "well thats selfish, she could do everything right and you wouldnt take her back over an STD that isnt even lethal?" But I realize that is BS. She has it because she cheated. I didnt cheat. I didnt bring that into our marriage. So I dont think its selfish.

I hope for her sake she hasnt messed this up beyond repair.

I know I am a catch. I love her very much still, so much, I dont believe it possible that I could love someone as much as my DW (not WW, thats an alien). I KNOW I could, but I dont BELIEVE it. But I know I can love her this much but if she is positive, and I am not... thats it.

For today at least. I guess we will see.
Posted By: Scotland Re: My thread - 05/30/10 10:19 PM
How's this for a positive. You do know that this disease is a POSSIBILITY. You can wait to get tested and to see what her results are before you make any decision. Think about it. If some stranger came up to you 2 years ago and said, "BT, your wife will have an affair and you will try to repair your marriage." What would you have said to that person? Usually, when I ask that question, even of my Dad, they say, "I would have told that person that they were NUTS." You don't know how you are going to react to something until you are hit in the side of the head with it. One step at a time.

It is AMAZING to see how far you have come already. I know you don't feel like it, but you are doing so well. Keep it up.
Posted By: rwinger Re: My thread - 05/30/10 10:41 PM
ditto what Scottie said - it is a possibility with any infidelity. Just keep your mind focused to break this up...meanwhile use it as bullet to break it up. No decision has to made at this time and its no use going through what ifs until testing results.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 10:51 PM
Ok thanks guys...

I miss my DW right now.

I feel like DS is kinda is starting to too.

He cant talk but he keeps going down the hall to what WAS "her" room until I moved back in, and fiddling with door. He goes inside, looks around kinda lost, then sees an object and is distracted again. Like he is looking for her.

My heart is breaking again.

I didnt know you could have that happen so many times over and over. I guess I thought it was like a "break" where it happens, and thats it.

I dont like it.

I will make it through this.

I will.

will (v) - humans ability to force an action

I will.... for my son.

K, have to go cry now, be back in a bit.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/30/10 10:55 PM
BT, how old are you and your wife? How old is the OM?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 10:58 PM
M-25
WW-24
OM-50

WWs Dad - less than 50, 47 I think? he said he didnt want a SIL that was older than him, that he wanted me, that I was the best SIL he could have ever hoped for.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:04 PM
Puzzles me why the OM and WW have been able to resist the pressure to leave the park today.

Have you personally and directly told WW and OM that you have exposed them?

That is the only 100% proof of you knowing. Believing what others tell you can cost you your marriage.

Call your WW telling her that you know where she is and with who(OM),that you have exposed.

Then call the OM and ask him what his intentions are with your WW. Let him ramble a bit cut short by only saying "this is unaceptable". Then add that his BW knows about the affair, where he is, who he is with(WW), that he lost his job.

You need to stir the pot a little.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
M-25
WW-24
OM-50

faint You are so young!!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:12 PM
Have you told your mother?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:22 PM
I havent talked to my mother in um.... 7 years? And the last time I did was forced on me because I was still a minor child and the court made me talk to her.

I have met many people since.

The only person so far who has done even close to the despicable things my mother has done (that I have met and know of) is my current WW.

Actually, I guess WW hasnt physically beat DS yet, so WW is still "better" than Mommy Dearest.

I am learning forgiveness, but I havent yet got to the part of trust. Mommy Dearest hasnt tried to contact anyone in her family, or my brother in at least 6 years.

I cannot trust her near my family until I know she isnt going to do the things she did to me and my brother.

I have personally told WW that "everyone knows." She asked who, I told her "all of our friends, all of our family, if I could find a way to contact them, they know. Everyone."

I was there when the Maj told OM that he was "dismissed" and that he had to get all his stuff out of our workspace before this weekend was up and people returned to work.

I guess the only part I was not there for was OM being told his family knows. Hmmm...

Regardless if the exposure, I cant believe she hasnt come home for her son.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I am learning forgiveness, but I havent yet got to the part of trust. Mommy Dearest hasnt tried to contact anyone in her family, or my brother in at least 6 years.

I am so sorry, BT. frown I would be so proud to have a boy like you. You are so brave and so grown up for your age. I am horrified that a sleazy 50 year old is trying to take advantage of you kids. But you stood up to him and showed who the real man is here! You have more balls in your little finger than he does in his entire body!

My boy is 28 and I would be so proud if he behaved this admirably.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:30 PM
TheRoad, I am getting mixed thoughts.

On the one hand its "Let the exposure do its work," and the idea that only rarely does the lightbulb suddenly light up and WW realizes suddenly, "Oh I am doing something wrong" and fog lifts. That more often its fogfogfogfogfogfogfogfogfogfogfogfogfogfogfogfogfogfog for a while before she starts to come out of it.

WW is stubborn. I am sure OM has figured this out and knows how to play to her fears and thoughts and convince her to do this to prove how "strong" she is.

DW is tenacious - basically stubborn, but for things that are important that you SHOULD care about

On the other you are saying stir the pot.

But if I call them, it seems like I am "giving in."

Now that isnt neccesarily bad, but I am not.

I am not giving in. If she never came home, hell, if she isnt home by Wednesday, I will already have filed to get temp custody for my DS's safety, and have filed for D and get sole custody of my DS. I know that fog for WW will lift one day and she will be appalled at what she did, but if she is so deep she just NEEDS to stick around till she is SURE she gets herpes... well, I dont control her.

I exposed, they cant be having a good time, several of her friends and family and my friends and family have told me they have wrote to her.

Maybe she is ignoring it and enjoying fantasy land. Once they get out of the woods and back in the real world, its going to be a bleak desolate landscape far and away from the picture perfect fairy tale world they have convinced eachother they are in.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:33 PM
Thanks Melody, it really means a lot.

I was raised on the idea that if someone did this to you, you put them in the ground.

I own lots of weapons.

It has been a struggle to keep reminding myself that what I am doing requires more strength than that "easy" way out. That my son needs me.

I get some satisfaction that at least while I havent stopped his heart, I have been the cause of the destruction of his life. If he manages to drag my wife with him, thats her problem.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:36 PM
BT, we are both in crummy places, but promise me you won't forget what your 50% was in causing things to go south (not the A, mind you, but the situation your dishonesty played in the M).

That's conditioned on also promising to stay on my a s s about my 50%, and MY dishonesty, and making sure I continue to to improve on these issues.

We need to do that for ourselves- -whether our wives are beside us or not.

Hang tough....

HBS
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
It has been a struggle to keep reminding myself that what I am doing requires more strength than that "easy" way out. That my son needs me.

That is how a MAN behaves.

My boy has lots of weapons too. We sent him through the Eddie Eagle program when he was little for gun training. He is locked and loaded, baby!
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:52 PM
HBS, I havent forgotten my 50%, thats part of the Plan A if she ever comes back, or at least comes back in time to be allowed a chance to see Plan A.

I am talking weeks here.

I honestly dont know how they COULD stay out weeks, with no money or anything, but you never know.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: My thread - 05/30/10 11:54 PM
The Road,

I pretty much disagree with you. Just placing myself in his situation as I was a few months ago with my wife's affair, and in my view the much more sacry situation of your W going through a psychotic episode, I think BT has had enought of this for this weekend. It is his choice.

BT, I would back off now. For this short time period you have done as much as you can. Regarding the why or whether or not your W will come home tomorrow is pretty much irrelecant. She will have to come home at some point.

IMHO there has been enough talk to date and it seems to be wearing you down.. If I were in your situation I would have her personal belongings on the porch, a trusted friend around you at all times especially when she returns, your VAR on you at all times, a call tomorrow for an emergency meeting with an attorney on Tues. ( even if you have to take that day off workk), No commuciation in terms of texting her or answerign her calls or texts, and complete separation as your goal. She needs to be hit over her head and hard. So does the OM, but you have done as much as you can there. This woman, who was once your wife has betrayed you as much as Judas betrayed Christ. .

Man BT, I know this is probably not in line with MC principles, but I am going through now noncommunication, and ya know what I feel I need to now. I believe in the MB but I also believe that there is not one single instance that anyone can predict or comment on the exclusiveness of any couple. We are all unique. True, there are trends, but this is time for you to decide how to respond given the good advice you have recieved.

For me today, a pretty good day. I took my son out for a grill out with some friends and he seemed to enjoy. My daughter who lives in WA state called and we talked for awhile. Neither of them and me as well wanted to talk to Char today. Just because we had a good day and we needed that. I had a message from her counsler yesterday complianing that I had not called her and she is upset and agitated. Know what BT, unless she calls me, my son and my daughter then she does not need a go between to make her feel good. So the rest of us had a good day as a family, she didn't...that is TS, and I don't care. I went to confession yesterday and told my priest my feelings and while he did nto condone, he said God would understand in His justice.

I posted last night on my thread that I felt melencholly and I did about her. Married 41 years and now alone.

Point is also BT i have come in contact with a Russian woman here at my complex and we have talked alot. Just like on patios. Her name is Tanya and she is in her forties and yea okay I know is a sin but I am attracted to her and now expecially that my wife has started the incommunicato with me and our family. I am 67 soon to be 68 years old BT. Yea when I was younger the same with most males I thought yea I could be attractive to another female. Just brief fantasies and If anyone here would castigate me for that then just look at your self!

Point is that for alot of years now oldr I actually have felt that I am so fortunate that my wife stayed with me. I mean this is in just the last year. Since she has had to go to the nursing home. Since that time I have felt somehow like worthless that as a provider I could have prevented that. I do know now I could not have but my W somehow has presisted on that and that is what has now driven me away despite her counselor. There is another woman out there now who appreciates me and I realize it and she wants us to be together next weekend and after all this I do not know hat I am going to do.

BT, oh man, I tell you this because I do not want you to end up age 60 and wonder what and who you invested your life with. My situation is different from fact that C does has mental illness.

I right now with all of my lonly feelings need to give back. I have found a volunteer site dealing with the homeless here in the chicago area. It is in the city , but I want do to do that. Tanya agrees but she doesn't want me down there, but I am going to do that. Do you know whe BT, it is because I have found someone who loves me an appreciates, and no matter what she feels now I have to get to retiring now and doing volunteer work. I do not thing that Christ at this moment in time put Tanya in my life as simply a temptation.. I want to dedicate the rest of my life to things that are meaingful to Him.

Too long but now I needed to express.

A lot of different people in the world. Just the same, stay very close to Melody Pepper Marita, and any others you trust.

Tom





Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/31/10 12:05 AM
Honor your vows Tom.

Thats all I can say.

I dont know much, but I am nothing without my word.

Honor your vows and recognize the position you are putting yourself in.

You are allowing an OW to meet your unmet needs. It didnt have to be her, it could have been anyone.

You are halfway down the WS script.

Honor your vows.

I dont know your wifes history or even your really, but if you want to go be with someone else, at least tell your spouse, seperate, and get split up, before you do anything else.

Honor your vows.

41 years, dont throw it away now.

I dont listen to God, but I have read his words, and He has said He will not allow the Devil to tempt you beyond what you can bear.

Honor your vows.
Posted By: Nerlycrzy Re: My thread - 05/31/10 12:58 AM
BT,

I'm so proud of you too BT. My son is also older than you and another great guy. It breaks my heart that you are having to go through this and without a mom to hold you, wrap her arms around you and comfort you.

Be aware you have your Cyber-Moms out here, proud, hugging you tight.
{{{{{{BT}}}}}
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/31/10 01:10 AM
Disagrees with me but wants to be a WH.

I always say consider the source......
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/31/10 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Disagrees with me but wants to be a WH.

I always say consider the source......

ITA. Totally. Some posters find a warm comfy place here, though. Go figure.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: My thread - 05/31/10 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by Tom2010
We are all unique.

Just like everybody else
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/31/10 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by lildoggie
Originally Posted by Tom2010
We are all unique.

Just like everybody else
I think I'm gonna make a decal of this and stick it on my car. dance2
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/31/10 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by Tom2010
I do not thing that Christ at this moment in time put Tanya in my life as simply a temptation.. I want to dedicate the rest of my life to things that are meaingful to Him.

Tom, you do understand that God does not condone adultery. She is more than a "temptation," she can lead to your downfall. There is no excuse for adultery, Tom. If Tanya cares about you at all, she will stay away and not exploit you in your time of need. Don't degrade yourself in your last years with an affair, my good friend.
Posted By: MovingForward2 Re: My thread - 05/31/10 02:17 AM
Sir BT,

I have been following your thread for a while. I'm rooting for you. You've got amazing people helping you out both here on MB and in real life, which I've noticed I don't see a lot of on other threads.

I just wanted to throw out an idea here, how about instead of WW going to see her father in July, why don't you pay for him to come here and see her asap? Is that a possibility? Does anyone else think that's a good idea?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/31/10 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by MovingForward2
I just wanted to throw out an idea here, how about instead of WW going to see her father in July, why don't you pay for him to come here and see her asap? Is that a possibility? Does anyone else think that's a good idea?

Ditto!! I agree with this smart lady...

t/j good to see you, my dear lady smile
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/31/10 02:24 AM
Originally Posted by MovingForward2
Sir BT,

I have been following your thread for a while. I'm rooting for you. You've got amazing people helping you out both here on MB and in real life, which I've noticed I don't see a lot of on other threads.

I just wanted to throw out an idea here, how about instead of WW going to see her father in July, why don't you pay for him to come here and see her asap? Is that a possibility? Does anyone else think that's a good idea?

How about you all go together and make it a great vacation?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/31/10 03:25 AM
I like the idea of going to CA as a family because:

1) I am more financially stable than her father right now. I can afford to go out there for 3 weeks or so, no prob. Also, my work is totally behind me on this.

2) Here, we have no one, well, she has no one. Out in CA she has at least 5 friends who are for our marriage, plus her dad and brother, and me and our son there. Much more support.

3) CA is accross the country from OM. He will be way far away, and I will take her phone away from her (shut it off), and her dad doesnt have internet.

Sound good?
Posted By: _SOL Re: My thread - 05/31/10 03:28 AM
CA trip together sounds like a good plan to me.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/31/10 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I like the idea of going to CA as a family because:

1) I am more financially stable than her father right now. I can afford to go out there for 3 weeks or so, no prob. Also, my work is totally behind me on this.

2) Here, we have no one, well, she has no one. Out in CA she has at least 5 friends who are for our marriage, plus her dad and brother, and me and our son there. Much more support.

3) CA is accross the country from OM. He will be way far away, and I will take her phone away from her (shut it off), and her dad doesnt have internet.

Sound good?

Sounds great, BT. Keep it in mind. Get her home.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/31/10 04:08 AM
I dont know what else to do to get her home.

Its Monday now.. the day she is supposed to come home.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/31/10 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I dont know what else to do to get her home.

Its Monday now.. the day she is supposed to come home.

Hang on, BT. It's just barely Monday. I know you're anxious. Get to bed and rest up. I suspect that this is going to be a busy day.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 05/31/10 12:25 PM
California here I come

Right back where I started from

Go west young man go west
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/31/10 12:44 PM
Cant yet...

her dad needs to get his phone, kick his drug addicted GF out, clean up his house...

THEN we can go.

Oh, and WW probably ought to come home first, but I kinda hope she stays out till wednesday...

See, OM has nothing to leave the woods for:
no friends, no money, no job, no house, no family

So he is going to work WW to stay out with him so he can get all he can out of her.

If WW falls for this, by the time she DOES come home, I should have papers and such saying "You dont get anything including the kid till a court hears." and be able to "slap her face" with how real this really is.

AND - if she doesnt come back, it looks worse an worse for her as the mother, if she seeks custody. She might realize that it was NOT in her best interest to not come home and begin to see that OM doesnt really care about her, and is just using her.

That and the herpes text, the more information that is FACTUAL and shows that OM is using her, maybe she will wake up?

IDK...
Posted By: MovingForward2 Re: My thread - 05/31/10 03:09 PM
Well, it was worth throwing out there. Yep, keep it in mind and go to CA together as a family as soon as you can.

Good luck with whatever happens today and the next few days. You sound strong and confident. Exactly what WW needs to see when and if she comes home.

tj - thanks ML, it's great to see you on MB as well! I'm always keeping an eye out for your posts as I'm still absorbing and learning smile /tj
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/31/10 05:46 PM
threw me off, she just showed up, with 2 cops.

they took our info, I asked for theirs, asked to take notes, asked why they were here, said cuz she asked for it, I said ok

they said we obviously issues, and we need to work them out in a civil manner.

I said, thank you for time Sgt, have a nice day

they left

fog got thick in here....

Plan A... GO!

She asked about how was she was supposed to get gas with no money in the account, I offered her $60 cash, she said no thanks, what did you think I would clean the account out?

I said, WW, I dont trust you. I love our family, and you are welcome to come back when you are ready, but I have to protect our family and your behavior is a threat. Would you like some watermelon?

(no BS, I had watermelon on the table...)

I asked friends over, so I asked her if she was ok with that, she said "whatever" seeing if friends are still comfortable coming over....
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/31/10 05:49 PM
"threw me off, she just showed up, with 2 cops."

Not at all unexpected.
Remember, keep that VAR handy.

You did just fine.
Do not engage in anger.
Aren't you glad you protected the family $$$ ?
Posted By: faithful follower Re: My thread - 05/31/10 06:38 PM
Awesome job, BT! I am so impressed with how well you are handling all of this without blowing your cool. I am so ashamed of my gender when they pull cr*p like bringing police into it.

As pep said, keep that VAR handy.
Posted By: MovingForward2 Re: My thread - 05/31/10 06:51 PM
Not surprised. My friend's H, shortly after she began Plan B, woke her up at 1 am with two cops at the door. It was a scare tactic, her H's way of wrestling the control of the situation back from her. It made her doubt herself and her decisions, and she caved very soon after. Unfortunate.

You're doing great, BT.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/31/10 07:56 PM
thanks

Friends still coming over, so that should be neat...

they know everything and said they would love to stop by and "play nice"
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/31/10 08:00 PM
she hasnt said a word in an angry tone yet...

lots of snide remarks.

I need some ideas for small talk, and quick tip on what to say in response to

"I dont trust you"
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/31/10 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I need some ideas for small talk, and quick tip on what to say in response to

"I dont trust you"

"Thats nice." smile
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/31/10 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I need some ideas for small talk, and quick tip on what to say in response to

"I dont trust you"

"Thats nice." smile

Isn't that so typical, they cheat and sneak around, we catch 'em and now they don't trust us?!

Ha, so standard. BT I was watching you this weekend, you are doing so great, keep some more of that watermelon around, "want some watermelon?"

Good one!

SWW
Posted By: Mulan Re: My thread - 05/31/10 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I need some ideas for small talk, and quick tip on what to say in response to "I dont trust you"


"Okay."
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/31/10 08:35 PM
Bt, when she says stupid nutty things like that, try not to bust out laughing. Laughing in their face is a lovebuster so TRY your best to control it.

The thing to remember is that you CANNOT REASON with a falling down drunk because they have no powers of reason. Your W is a falling down drunk. So, just be polite, be FIRM, don't be an asskisser and dont' get dragged into a fight.

When you have a chance to speak to her, DEMAND that she end her affair with the OM. Tell you will not tolerate any continued contact at all. Let her know the result will be DIVORCE on grounds of adultery. And that you will file for primary custody of your son and possession of your home.

It is real important that she understand that HELL IS COMING if she doesn't end her affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/31/10 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I need some ideas for small talk

"I DEMAND that you end your affair with Joe. If it does not end I will BE filing on grounds of adultery and will ask that I be awarded primary custody of our son becuase of the immoral and unfit environment you have placed him in. Nor will I have to pay a CENT of alimony becuase in our state one does not have to pay alimony when there is adultery.

The OM will be called into court to give testimony of his affair under oath. His wife, WHO SAID THAT THEY HAD NEVER EVEN DISCUSSED DIVORCE, will have grounds to divorce him."

Say this sweetly and do not lovebust when you say this. smile

MAKE SURE YOUR WW KNOWS THAT THE OM HAD NEVER BROUGHT UP DIVORCE TO HIS WIFE. He was LYING to your wife. Bringing out any lies you glean from the OMW will be very impactful. You should stay in daily contact with the OMW.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/31/10 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by Mulan
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I need some ideas for small talk, and quick tip on what to say in response to "I dont trust you"


"Okay."


"I trust myself"
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 05/31/10 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I need some ideas for small talk

"I DEMAND that you end your affair with Joe. If it does not end I will BE filing on grounds of adultery and will ask that I be awarded primary custody of our son becuase of the immoral and unfit environment you have placed him in. Nor will I have to pay a CENT of alimony becuase in our state one does not have to pay alimony when there is adultery.

The OM will be called into court to give testimony of his affair under oath. His wife, WHO SAID THAT THEY HAD NEVER EVEN DISCUSSED DIVORCE, will have grounds to divorce him."

Say this sweetly and do not lovebust when you say this. smile

MAKE SURE YOUR WW KNOWS THAT THE OM HAD NEVER BROUGHT UP DIVORCE TO HIS WIFE. He was LYING to your wife. Bringing out any lies you glean from the OMW will be very impactful. You should stay in daily contact with the OMW.

This is a good conversation, for the future.
For today, I think it reveals too much of your plan to the enemy.

I suggest you wait until WW has revealed HER so-called plans first.
Let her blab.
Find out what is going on in her pea-brain.

OTOH, everything MelHell has said, is 100% the truth.
Good conversation for the future.

You have WW on the ropes, keep her there without telegraphing your next moves.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/31/10 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
[This is a good conversation, for the future.
For today, I think it reveals too much of your plan to the enemy.

She needs to know this plan TODAY so that her illusions of an easy, amicable divorce are dashed. She needs to know what her future holds, and the sooner the better.

Quote
From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/31/10 09:18 PM
k, thanks mel

she asked when I am going to work tomorrow.

I said, we have a counseling appointment (Jen Harley...)

she said are you going to work after that?
Isaid no

she said what are you doing.

WW, I dont trust you anymore, I am not going to tell you what I am doing.

She said, "oh, right..."

I dont know what this talk will be tonight, I need to memories Mels bullet points, and I cna take it form there.

thank you so much, keep them coming
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 05/31/10 09:19 PM
So, ask her what she wants first? Or just hit my demands right off the bat?
Posted By: Chrysalis Re: My thread - 05/31/10 09:31 PM
I think I am somewhere between Pep and ML on this one.

BT definitely needs to listen and let her reveal her plans and state of mind. The less he talks, the more he will learn.

She either is currently, or will soon be, terrified as she begins to see what a cynical user this 50 year old man is of a very young woman. But you can't put those words in her mouth. (Friends, however, might be able to say things like that to her.

She is still whacked out on affair chemicals, though, and you cannot afford to believe a word she says, attribute one shred of rational thought to her, or give her the slightest bit of financial support that can be used to further the affair.

You tell her you are her safe place to land once she is ready to meet the conditions. Smile. Shower affection on your son.

I also agree that he has to bust the fantasy using the best means at his disposal. What are those in BT's case? He's done a hero's job so far this weekend.

In my case, I used a different tactic. I informed my H from day 1 that in no way would I make it easy for him to abandon his children to pursue an affair! In fact, I was so concerned for DS16's need for his dad that I was sure he was going to need to take primary custody (autistic, mentally retarded, prone to rage outbursts and guaranteed to react badly to a D....very fun for an OW, doncha think?) And I would be so heartbroken that I didn't think I could stay in the area.

That my seem heartless but it scared the you know what out of H and highlighted to him that the A was all about fantasy and totally at odds with the reality of daily life. I was not about to let him run away into narcissistic fantasy land and abandon his son.

Are there responsibilities that your W is running away from? Can you find a way to hold her feet to the fire about those, whether or not she continues the A? It's just a thought, my case was a little bit unusual.

And I am happy to report that DS16 still has 2 parents, together, and happier all the time. That only can happen after the alien leaves the building, however.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/31/10 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
threw me off, she just showed up, with 2 cops.

they took our info, I asked for theirs, asked to take notes, asked why they were here, said cuz she asked for it, I said ok

they said we obviously issues, and we need to work them out in a civil manner.

I said, thank you for time Sgt, have a nice day

they left

fog got thick in here....

Plan A... GO!

She asked about how was she was supposed to get gas with no money in the account, I offered her $60 cash, she said no thanks, what did you think I would clean the account out?

I said, WW, I dont trust you. I love our family, and you are welcome to come back when you are ready, but I have to protect our family and your behavior is a threat. Would you like some watermelon?

(no BS, I had watermelon on the table...)

I asked friends over, so I asked her if she was ok with that, she said "whatever" seeing if friends are still comfortable coming over....

Wayward pre-emptive strike while in fog: " Officer, you've got to come home with me! My brutal H is ready to hatchet murder me! We're having "issues"!

BT, if she brings in Johnny Law again, make sure you expose her to them, as well.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/31/10 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I need some ideas for small talk, and quick tip on what to say in response to

"I dont trust you"

"Thats nice." smile

"What a coincidence - I don't trust you, either." grin
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/31/10 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
she hasnt said a word in an angry tone yet...

lots of snide remarks.

I need some ideas for small talk, and quick tip on what to say in response to

"I dont trust you"

Having friend over will dilute anything you have to say tonight, which is unfortunate. If you must 'small talk' with her, keep it confined to talking about your son.

Gear up for your real conversation. You need to talk about the state and future of your M. Until then, keep your friends entertained at your best. Let her see the great guy she married that everyone loves.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 05/31/10 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I need some ideas for small talk

"I DEMAND that you end your affair with Joe. If it does not end I will BE filing on grounds of adultery and will ask that I be awarded primary custody of our son becuase of the immoral and unfit environment you have placed him in. Nor will I have to pay a CENT of alimony becuase in our state one does not have to pay alimony when there is adultery.

The OM will be called into court to give testimony of his affair under oath. His wife, WHO SAID THAT THEY HAD NEVER EVEN DISCUSSED DIVORCE, will have grounds to divorce him."

Say this sweetly and do not lovebust when you say this. smile

MAKE SURE YOUR WW KNOWS THAT THE OM HAD NEVER BROUGHT UP DIVORCE TO HIS WIFE. He was LYING to your wife. Bringing out any lies you glean from the OMW will be very impactful. You should stay in daily contact with the OMW.

Feel her out to see how she feels about having life-long disease, as well. Do not lovebust on this one, either. She has jeopardized her health and yours.

The time for this conversation is now. ASAP. As soon as the friends go.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 05/31/10 10:42 PM
Quote
she asked when I am going to work tomorrow.

I said, we have a counseling appointment (Jen Harley...)

she said are you going to work after that?
Isaid no

she said what are you doing.

WW, I dont trust you anymore, I am not going to tell you what I am doing.

She said, "oh, right..."


She's planning to do something she doesn't want you to be around for.

Change the locks? Take your son somewhere?

I'd think about putting a VAR in her car. Under her seat. I'm sure she will avoid talking inside your house again. But, she will probably feel safe talking in her car. Try to find out what she's up to.

Posted By: MovingForward2 Re: My thread - 05/31/10 11:02 PM
I second Marshmallow. It does seem suspicious. I'd recommend you try not to go anywhere tomorrow. If she wants to go somewhere, maybe you should try to go with her, or have a friend check up on her to see if she is at where she says she's going. Get a GPS for her car. Check in with OMW.

As for the conversation, I am more with ML, because she guided me throughout my situation and we are recovering today in large part to her. She has also tried to help my friend out. She has great instincts.

If you haven't yet, you may want to take a look at the reverse fogbabble thread. I think it's under noteable posts.

I like Maritalbliss's idea about feeling her out on the disease part. I didn't feel my H out but I told him soon after exposure that I had made an appointment for STD testing and I expected him to bring me because he was the one who put me at risk. He freaked out at that one (he was still denying the A), but I stood firm. Another way to punch a hole in his fog and to make him face the consequences of what he had done and the reality of it all.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: My thread - 05/31/10 11:12 PM
Remember...her addiction is ALL about OM.

Her questions about tomorrow and work likely have more to do with meeting up with OM than anything else. HE is her priority right now.

She MAY be playing some kind of custody game....but I still bet it's about OM.


As far as what to talk about. Stick to the Plan A do's and don't list. Ask open ended questions and just listen, acknowledge and move on.

Here's a post I gave SickofLimbo about a month ago with some good talking points you may like:

Quote
No 2x4's from me...sometimes you've just got to have these conversation ESPECIALLY considering you aren't there.

The way I look at these conversations as you got more time to Plan A your wife. Heck...it's one of the longest conversations you've had with her in weeks. THAT'S GOOD.

Just don't expect to accomplish much...just listen and try to plant seeds. Let her negatively and resolute just bounce off you. Protect YOUR lovebank and don't allow withdraws...just speak to her as though she's the crazy delusional lady that's in a mental hospital whom you are ALMOST sympathetic for because she appears so lost in the haze.

Throw things in like...

* Steve Harley's line: "Bottom line honey...what is the best case scenario for our children???? That we save our marriage and give them 2 parents in a loving relationship"

* Don't you want to model to our children that when things get tough that their parents have the ability to not only overcome their difficulties but to rise above them.

* Don't we want to teach our children commitment. Like it or not...we committed ourselves to each other for life. I am prepared to honor that agreement.

* Do you think ANYONE will ever love you more than I do? Who else can you think of that would be willing to forgive you and restore their relationship with you considering what you've done to me by betrayal. Betrayal is abuse...yet here I am trying to reconcile with you. OM wouldn't do that for you (ask him...he's already likely told you he wouldn't stand a second for what you and him are doing to me). Mark my words, you will NEVER be loved like you have the opportunity to be loved again by me.

*You keep saying "happiness"...you know it's unattainable the way you are going about it, don't you? After destroying me and our family...you and OM have ZERO shot at finding happiness. So what then??? You will have destroyed your family, destroyed your honest marriage and have hurting children who are themselves unhappy. What do you do THEN to find happiness??? The point is...no matter where you go...there YOU will be. Happiness really comes from doing the right thing. The right thing here is to discard OM, restore our marriage and find happiness with who you were meant to be. To BLOOM where you were planted. We can do this TOGETHER.

*Ultimately...honey, you won't like my "giving up" much. If and when we are divorced, you won't be my friend. You will be my xwife that cheated on me and left me and our family for another man. NOTHING I have ever done compares to the disrespect and abuse of adultery. Thus, I will model proper behavior for our children to take forward in their lives in how most properly to behave in the face of disrespect and abuse and have little to nothing to do with you as I attempt to rebuild MY LIFE. This won't be to be vindictive or punish you, on the contrary, it will be to protect myself from your additional abuse as you, like every other wayward wives, will attempt to get me to "be friends...you know, for the kids" (whom you are totally disregarding with your wayward behavior) and just accept things the way they are which, quite frankly is WRONG and unacceptable. I'll also endevour to create a safe & stable place for our children during my time with them far away from the chaos and unpredictability of persons who discard people and commitments so easily to seek their "happiness" no matter the costs.

Sounds like I'm saying, say a lot but really these are just small seeds to be planted and replanted using differing language intermitently along the way in these conversations.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - asking her to read a whole book isn't likely to be fruitful. She's HIDING from her guilt and won't read anything which may dissaude her from her wayward rationalizations and justifications. You are better off send her small excerts, perhaps, with a link back to the whole thing. Maybe use language from "30 Reasons to Stop an Affair" by Rick Reynolds that I often refer to. I like using it since it doesn't direct the waywards back to MB at all. If you don't have it...google it.

Mr. W
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/31/10 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
So, ask her what she wants first? Or just hit my demands right off the bat?

BT, ask what she is thinking but be sure lay out your plan, giving her a picture of reality. This will slow her down and give her second thoughts. This is real important given that she believes there will be no consequences for her affair. She needs to be disabused of that notion promptly.

And DON'T smear the OM in any way, but subtly repeat what the OMW said, that he has NEVER even mentioned divorce. Let him know that the OMW felt like he was just using her for sex. BE SURE AND MENTION THAT HE HAS AN STD AND THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE SEX WITH HER UNTIL SHE GETS TESTED. Plant little doubts like that.

After you tell her what her future holds [divorce, no alimony, etc] tell her that a better alternative would be to fall in love again. Tell her you have a plan for that.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: My thread - 05/31/10 11:27 PM
Also...from what I know about your states laws about adultery...if you have sex with her again after you knew about her adultery you MAY be foregoing your rights to make such claim.

I've heard stories of attorney's advising their wayward clients to go home and start having sex with their spouse again EVEN IF THEY PLAN TO DIVORCE to avoid losing alimony.

Mr. W
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/31/10 11:27 PM
p.s. and don't give her anymore money. She will clean you out if you allow it. Let her know that you are going to give her any money until this is settled. You can put gas in her car and go get groceries.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 05/31/10 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
Also...from what I know about your states laws about adultery...if you have sex with her again after you knew about her adultery you MAY be foregoing your rights to make such claim.

I've heard stories of attorney's advising their wayward clients to go home and start having sex with their spouse again EVEN IF THEY PLAN TO DIVORCE to avoid losing alimony.

Mr. W

AGREE with this. Plus, you may get an STD if you have sex with her.
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: My thread - 05/31/10 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
Also...from what I know about your states laws about adultery...if you have sex with her again after you knew about her adultery you MAY be foregoing your rights to make such claim.

I've heard stories of attorney's advising their wayward clients to go home and start having sex with their spouse again EVEN IF THEY PLAN TO DIVORCE to avoid losing alimony.

Mr. W

She has herpes apparently, or likely does.

SWW
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/01/10 02:33 AM
Ok, we agreed on something...

Friends were over while son was awake anyway, we dont talk when he is awake.

She saw the neat guy everyone smiles around

Success there

Talk...

She said "fine" to not contacting OM, except wants to call and tell him tonight. Wont let me be there for it.

I said I am not ok with it, she said basically, "tough"

However, she did say that she is willing to do anything for her son, and if that means living with me, and my 'demands' for a while, fine.

My other demand was to be present for our phone with Harley tomorrow night which she agreed to...

so.... I dont know, she agreed to counseling with Harleys, and said lots of stuff that wasnt attacking me, and neither of us really gave any ground... so it seems like its kinda neutral. We both stated many different ways that "it would be nice" if we worked out...

so, I dont know

Plan for tomorrow... I am going to wait one day on the lawyers. I dont really have to go to work this week anyway. We have accepted that we dont trust each other, so I will be with her all day. We will run errands and be with our son, and counseling in the evening with Harley.

So, protects my son because I am not leaving him alone, I agreed to nothing other than wanting to be a family, and she agreed to counseling...

I did not get the full "NC" that I want... but I guess I dont know, will wait for counseling.

She asked how much it cost

I told her

She was like WHAT?!?!

I said, well, I told you, I will do anything for this family. How much is a happy marriage worth to you?

silence....

Whats the worst that could happen if we give it a try? Its a stranger.

She said ok....
Posted By: Scotland Re: My thread - 06/01/10 02:46 AM
Well, I also say, "How much did your wedding cost? That was for ONE day."
Posted By: stillhere8126 Re: My thread - 06/01/10 02:53 AM
....and a divorce would cost more too
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: My thread - 06/01/10 03:48 AM
As you live in a state where you can file for D because of adultery, I suggest that you start that process off. You can always call it off at a later date if your WW buys into the recovery of your M (most do not). There are certain limitations on filing because of adultery, including a time limitation, and if six months down the road your WW still hasn't committed to recovery, you may find it no longer possible to give her the boot without being subject to alimony, etc. She may be aware of this too and simply string you along for those six months with precisely this in mind. IANAL though, so I suggest talking to one to get the best legal advice on this.

Also, WWs are devious, DEVIOUS creatures! Do NOT underestimate them. You may think things are going along well, then arrive home one day and find your WW, your child and anything small and valuable missing from your home, for example. Keeping one step ahead of her scheming is VERY important. Use those VARs! BTW - does she know about the bedroom recording?

Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/01/10 04:16 AM
Yes she knows I recorded her.

She said at one point "I dont feel like I can talk to you because the house is bugged."

On the Lawyers...
I want to wait 1 day, since I will be with her the whole time, she verbally committed to the counselign with harley's agreed to fill out Love Bank Qs etc. At this point, the lawyers were closed all weekend, so if I go alone to go get one, she could be doing the same. We are both at the starting line. So if I wait one day, see what happens at counseling, and keep her next to me 24/7 during the mean time, then 24 hrs wont make a big difference with the lawyers. (my opinon)

I want the NC, and will have to at some point stand up to get it, or follow through on threat. Again, 1 day is fine, see what happens at counseling.

I do not intend to allow SF until she and I are both tested, no matter what she says. I dont trust her.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: My thread - 06/01/10 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Yes she knows I recorded her.

Is she aware that it's only an audio recording? If not, I suggest keep her guessing. Keeping the A hidden was obviously very important to her, and the fear of a video her bumping uglies with a 50-yr old STD-infested OM somehow finding its way into the public domain may be enough for her to keep in line, at least for the moment.

Of course you may need to let it slip somehow that you have many copies, including one safely stored away from home wink.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: My thread - 06/01/10 05:05 AM
She wants to go underground with this. Wants to tell him "Contact me through this method and not this."

Seconding what everyone else says, don't mess around with her until she is tested. Don't ever underestimate her either.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 06/01/10 10:45 AM
Being you are talking with the Harleys tonight I'd say it was ok to not push against the phone call to the OM.

"She said "fine" to not contacting OM, except wants to call and tell him tonight. Wont let me be there for it."

However Being WW came home you can count on the OM playing your WW and his BW. OM went home to do damage control. Told your WW it is her BH's fault that I can't sweep you away from all of this. Your BH cost me my job. Lay low, we will make our move ASAP down the road to be together.

With OM not willing to provide WW with a love nest she has come home to suck it up for a while.

This is why I would push for the NC letter, say no to any phone call with the OM when you speak withthe Harleys . If WW refuses then tell her she is not welcomed to move back home. Leave until NC letter and NC.

Also keep the money cut off.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/01/10 02:46 PM
Thanks everyone...

thats basically it TR.

Waiting for session with Harley's.

Going out today to get some toddler clothes that arent from a winter state. Lil man sweats in this heavy stuff, so getting him new things.

Ok, I read everything, but dont have time to post much.

Plan A takes a lot of time... and I want to do it right.

be back later.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 06/01/10 05:55 PM
Quote
She said at one point "I dont feel like I can talk to you because the house is bugged."
Why is that? Do you plan to lie to me about a bunch of stuff?

I knew I'd have some catching up to do, but I had to take a nap after reading what I missed since Saturday...

My suggestion, BTW is that NC be established via letter, as per the recommendation of Dr Harley. Affair partners always want to get together "for closure." They don't need "closure." They need to stay away from each other and quit cold turkey if there is to be any hope for recovery without a bunch of broken NC instances.

BT, if you can get her to real NC with OM, be aware that she is going to be miserable for a while. Unfortunately this means that you might actually have to comfort her as she undergoes withdrawal. You don't have to take a bunch of crap, but it is a crappy situation at best.

Don't forget to keep STD testing on the front burner until it happens.

[Linked Image from cool-smileys.com]

Well done, BT.

Mark
Posted By: YEG Re: My thread - 06/01/10 06:46 PM
BT first post on your thread. Im sorry this happened to you. I knew from your sig when everything happened and i wanted to cry for you when I got to the 28th.

I found out May 1st my WW's PA. I immediately filed for divorce and wished I wouldnt have. I knew I wanted to stay with my wife but let people around me pressure me into it. I basically just wasted my money because I pulled the complaint since I didnt wanna use the complaint and temp hearing as a hammer.

You mentioned Alienation of Affection lawsuit. I would talk to your attorney about this. If he isnt completely bailed yet this will be one more nail. Your in NC and they have this. SC does not.

Also I wish I had done less decision making the first week. I was a roller coaster and not even able to care for myself. I wish I would have just took a breathe and formulated a solid plan A.

I got tested after my WW A. The risk was too great not too. I can tell you that I felt better when I found out everything was negative. It also was another shame tool for my WW. SHe said she never meant to hurt me but at the same time she exposed me to every slut her OM every banged. Disgusting to say the least.

I wouldnt speak in absolutes to her as well. Like IF she has herpes its 100% done. Your feeling will change a billion times in just a few weeks. Keep your options open.

BTW your 100% right for calling the Harleys in. One thing Steve they told me was that everything a BS says to the WW is tainted since you have a vested interest. Its bizzarro land but its true. They are a neutral third part with 1000s of cases under their belt and they can reach your WW easier than you can. Dont expect instant results though. Also schedule an appointment for yourself shortly after so JH can give you a solid plan A and a script you can use.

Getting your wife to recommit is a tough process and im praying for you.

You WILL feel better in 2 weeks. No matter how bad it seems now. Knowledge is power. Try reading Jim's thread or other ones that ended well for motivation. Everyone was in this hornets nest at one time. You CAN recover.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/01/10 11:46 PM
On with JH right now...

Its WWs turn for alone time...

Might be able to update later.
Posted By: BCboy Re: My thread - 06/02/10 12:08 AM
BT
Just a note of encouragement to you. You are acting like a true gentleman and a man of honor. Your children will have you to thank in years to come for acting with care and integrity. It sounds to me you have transformed difficult experiences from your childhood into a depth of character that is to be admired. There is not greater calling than for a man to stand in the breech for the sake of his family.

As a BH I understand the depth of trauma and disorientation you are feeling. I am encouraged to see you have some of the best on this site paddling hard on your behalf. Hang in there it will get better. You are in good hands.

I am rooting for you, and I am praying for you. Remember it is always darkest before dawn.

Blessings
BCBoy
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: My thread - 06/02/10 02:13 AM
BT,

This is my first post to you. Since the posters finally convinced you your WW was in fact having an affair, you have done a very good job in response. I think you should get a lawyer to draft a notification that if he continues contact w/ your WW, you will file an AOA suit against him. I would also inquire about possible legal rememdy whether criminal or civil for exposing your WW to an STD.

Keep on the offensive on this affair. Do you see what happened since you have taken charge? Your WW has not even threatened divorce. She knows she got busted. She knows she has no excuse to divorce you. Just enforce your boundaries and don't show her any fear. If she doesn't see any fear, she has nothing to manipulate you with. I'm about 90% sure that your WW will not leave you. If anyone ends this marriage, it's probably going to be you. When she says, "I don't trust you," just say ditto and let it drop. Make a list of the conditions you need for you to stay married to her. Eventually, once OM is out of the picture, she'll start coming around to her senses. Probably within about 2 months. If you don't accept crumbs from her, she'll realize she needs to shape up and will start working on the marriage and your conditions.

I think you are primed to end this affair and save this marriage. I'm praying for you that she used protection and avoided contracting herpes.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/02/10 11:12 AM
IDK what Jennifer said to her.

But she has blanket agreed to any Extraordinary Precautions.

GPS in Car
Run errands together
Unlocked her phone
No contact with OM ever again
Told me a few things that I would not have expected
Verbally committed to this marriage
Agreed to read HNHN and this site, and surviving an affair together.
Anything else I need, I am supposed to ask for it and she said she would do it.


Also, OM of course told her he has been tested every 2 years, and never had it, but I told her "I hope you can understand why I still want you to be tested." I figure get her tested first, if she is all clean, then I should be as well.

Right?

I dont know, just trying to save a buck, but I dont want to die over it.

Thanks for all the encouragement guys.

BCboy, you words touched my soul and your compassion helps me really believe that someone else understands what this is like.

I love my wife, I want to be a family...
but when I look at her, and think of her, its with him... and it hurts very badly.

I want to be strong, conquor this, and be the best husband and father possible,

but the price is very high.

I dont think she can understand how high it is to me.

We have 2 of my friends from back home coming to stay with us for a few days till they get their place, then they will live in the area. I am considering one of them as her Accountibility Partner. (F?)WW said she wants one, but has no one in the area as a friend that she can think of for one.
Posted By: gemstone Re: My thread - 06/02/10 11:24 AM
BT.....are these male friends of yours? If so then friends or not there is noway I would have her out with any other men period....I think it would be best if her accountibility partner be a female....like your sister or Mom or a netural party that is female....someone that is on your side! No males around your wife but you...JMO.
Posted By: YEG Re: My thread - 06/02/10 11:35 AM
Quote
But she has blanket agreed to any Extraordinary Precautions.

GPS in Car
Run errands together
Unlocked her phone
No contact with OM ever again
Told me a few things that I would not have expected
Verbally committed to this marriage
Agreed to read HNHN and this site, and surviving an affair together.
Anything else I need, I am supposed to ask for it and she said she would do it.

When you confront her there are 2 paths it can go.

1- she can try to lie her way out. She denies, denies and denies.

2- Deer in the headlights - If you get enough CONCRETE evidence they know they cant lie their way out. This amplifies the effect of exposure I believe. It did for my WW. Since they cant deny it if they want to return to the M they have to agree to EP.

Your effective exposure and the deer in the headlights confrontation is helping you alot right now.

Just realize that there is a possibility that she is just telling you what you wanna hear. Be on the lookout for an A phone or calling cards. She HAS to be accountable with her time.

Your on the right path. Just be aware of the pitfalls of a false recovery. Dont get your hopes up too high because the first few weeks are a roller coaster.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/02/10 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
We have 2 of my friends from back home coming to stay with us for a few days till they get their place, then they will live in the area. I am considering one of them as her Accountibility Partner. (F?)WW said she wants one, but has no one in the area as a friend that she can think of for one.

Only if it is a woman.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/02/10 12:03 PM
p.s. you shouldn't even be having single people stay at your home, BT. I realize you already made a committment this time, but I would not do that again. That is how many affairs start.
Posted By: Scotland Re: My thread - 06/02/10 12:06 PM
I remember someone telling Newpetals(Neak I think) that you ARE in a FALSE RECOVERY until you have PROVEN NC.

It is always so nice to hear the good reactions from the people who have called the coaching center. No one comes on and says it was a waste of money. This site is GREAT.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/02/10 01:16 PM
Hey, to clarify...

The friends of mine are Married.

I have known them both for 7 years, (they been dating that long, married this last August).
The Male friend joined the USMC, and is being stationed here. The female and my wife are also friends (thought (F?)WW isnt sure they still are after this, I have talked to friend and she is fine).

K, I totally get the its a false recovery till proven otherwise.

(F?)WW is typed like that for a reason.

(F?)WW has admitted that her last phone call to OM she said "You cant contact me on this phone" and he mentioned sending her one. Part of her EP's was for me to check the mail and be aware of a phone possibly coming.

We dont have an address for OM after all this, so going to ask Jennifer about that next time, since (F?)WW has said she will do an NC letter, but we dont know an appropriate way to make sure he gets it.

Honestly, I dont really trust OMW or her children or OM really, so just arent sure.

(F?)WW has said she wont contact him, but recognizes that the way they talked last, it leaves OM open to thinking he should try contact her.

I dont have single people coming.
The possible Accountibility Partner is a female.

Thanks though guys...
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: My thread - 06/02/10 01:24 PM
Quote
We dont have an address for OM after all this, so going to ask Jennifer about that next time, since (F?)WW has said she will do an NC letter, but we dont know an appropriate way to make sure he gets it.


Call OMW and ask her for her address.

This is TOO important a step to skip!
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: My thread - 06/02/10 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Also, OM of course told her he has been tested every 2 years, and never had it, but I told her "I hope you can understand why I still want you to be tested." I figure get her tested first, if she is all clean, then I should be as well.

Right?

You should get tested as well. Some people can be carriers without contracting the disease themselves.
Posted By: YEG Re: My thread - 06/02/10 02:27 PM
Quote
(F?)WW has said she wont contact him, but recognizes that the way they talked last, it leaves OM open to thinking he should try contact her.

Women commonly feel the need for "closure contact". Just be aware.

Many false recoveries start with that.

Quote
Also, OM of course told her he has been tested every 2 years, and never had it, but I told her "I hope you can understand why I still want you to be tested." I figure get her tested first, if she is all clean, then I should be as well.

Save money on something else. Its peace of mind to know. I had very little exposure but I still did it.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 06/02/10 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
(F?)WW has said she wont contact him, but recognizes that the way they talked last, it leaves OM open to thinking he should try contact her.

Then get rid of that phone. Or change the number.
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 06/02/10 08:15 PM
BT, how are you doing?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/03/10 01:40 AM
Hey BT, looks like things are progressing......

Hope you are okay, do not forget to take care of yourself as this is most definitely a marathon.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/03/10 02:35 AM
Sorry guys....

Lots of UA time with my (F?)WW.

She sat with me and we read Basic Concepts Summary all the way through. She was very excited seeing stuff like the States of marriage (intimicy, conflict, and withdrawal) and how it explained things exactly.

Worked out tonight together. Going to try get STD tested this weekend.

Next appointment with Jennifer on Monday.

Friends that are coming down had their U-haul start on fire... they might be a day or so late now...

oops
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 06/03/10 03:16 AM
That sounds wonderful, BT! I'm happy to hear she's doing this with you.

Will she give you a signed, handwritten no-contact letter that you can look over and send? I wouldn't necessarily bring this up right this second, but it'd be a good idea to ask for at some point, soon.

Have you got a full 15+ hour (preferably 20-30) UA schedule for the week? Do you know what four needs to focus on during that time? I would get in the habit of scheduling the UA time weekly for sure. For the rest of your life. If you can get ahold of the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook, the UA schedule form in there has a place for each of you to indicate how many hours of UA time you actually received, which can help keep you accountable.

Are you still conducting surveillance on her? DO NOT lower the bar! She will live down to it!
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: My thread - 06/03/10 03:29 AM
Please, slow down. Don't put an F in front of WW and don't put recovery in your signature right now. She's got to show that she can get through at least a month or two without contacting OM. Don't put the cart before the horse. Right now you need to be focused mostly on preventing future contact from occurring. She'll have to get through about 2 months of withdrawal before she can possibly commit to anything. I just want you to know so that you aren't trying to rush things, or worse yet, be naive and think you are in recovery when there is still contact ongoing.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/03/10 03:56 PM
k, havent talked to lawyers yet...

We are supposed to do ENQ for next appointment with Jennifer.

I check her phone against the phone bill. Pretty sure she knows. I also havent left her alone with our Son yet. Not once. Work has been very good, helped that I got like 68 hours logged during that trip, holiday on Monday, so I didnt really have work this week anyway (compensetory time off after 40 hours).

I am checking things.

I will leave the (F?)WW and Possible recovery in my signature, because thats what it is...

a question

She says she is, but its a question if its real.

We need to do an NC letter soon. I dont want to send it to OMWs house because, honestly, between her, her kids, and OM, none of them can agree on a story, so I dont know if ANY of them are actually telling the truth. I dont want NC letter to get sent to OM, opened and discarded by OMW.

(F?)WW called OM a b******d last night after a brief discussion about STD exposure. Seems he hadnt mentioned the possibility.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 06/03/10 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I will leave the (F?)WW and Possible recovery in my signature, because thats what it is...

a question

She says she is, but its a question if its real.
You are wise to look at it like this. This is very, very soon, BT.

We need to do an NC letter soon. I dont want to send it to OMWs house because, honestly, between her, her kids, and OM, none of them can agree on a story, so I dont know if ANY of them are actually telling the truth. I dont want NC letter to get sent to OM, opened and discarded by OMW.
What the real story is isn't important. The point is for your WW to be committed enough to be willing to do it. Send it to OM as registered mail. He'll have to go to the post office to sign for it and pick it up. This is a very important step and cannot be swept under the rug, BT.

(F?)WW called OM a b******d last night after a brief discussion about STD exposure. Seems he hadnt mentioned the possibility.
Well, sure, he's a b*****d. He is by definition, since he's the OM. This doesn't mean your WW has washed her hands of him. Be careful, BT. I think she's still wayward and still foggy.
Posted By: chrisner Re: My thread - 06/03/10 04:22 PM
Quote
She says she is, but its a question if its real.


She spent last weekend with him. That was ummm.....3-days ago.

She has a lot of work to do to earn the big F in front of her WW moniker and to do otherwise is somewhat insulting to the real FWWs here that did do the work.

Stay vigilant about snooping and contact. Get a NC letter to him immediately. Send it certified for his signature if you have to.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/04/10 11:00 AM
certified for signature, good idea!!

Any F WS's here, please dont be offended, not at all what I am going for.

Definately still foggy.

She still seems upset with me for exposure, says it was an immature way to handle it.

Still compares things I did to her affair. Suddenly she has just told me that about a year ago she thought I was having an affair, and so she cant trust me either. And that I caused her pain before her affair so while shbe still says her affair was wrong, she ends the sentance with "we hurt eachother."

I call her on all of those points once, but mostly, I just tell her I understand what she is saying. Inside, I recognize that its WW fog, and as we do MB together, she will probably figure most of that out.

She has already figured out lots of stuff, different statements in just the last couple days.

Anyway...

I will stop putting (F?)WW. How do I refer to her? I know there is NC because I monitor everything...

Asked her if she had said anything in her car that she wouldnt have watned recorded when she went to her interview. Instead of the "OH CRAP" look I got the, "Wow... you bugged the car too?" look.

Overheard her talkign to her mom last night.

"Yeah, I am pretty much grounded. He is watching me like a hawk. No, there is no trust. Well, we have to build it mom. I did this, so we have to build trust again. Well, this counselor, they have helped so many people and sold so many books and the stuff really makes sense, so we are working on it."

I think she was talking louder for my benefit, so I sort of suspect it, and I DONT feel bad for that either...

Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 06/04/10 12:20 PM
BT,

A couple of things...

First the part to ignore is that part about exposure being immature. She was acting like a love-sick 13 year old and you stood up and acted like an adult. Her comment that expose was immature you can pretty much ignore...

Now, for the part to learn from...

When she talks of things you did before the affair hurting her; these are the things you need to address, not to correct her thinking, because there is nothing wrong with her thinking on this point. The only change in thinking she needs is in thinking that you hurting her made her having the affair alright or right or justifiable or anything but the wrong thing to do. The equivocation of the hurt from your Love Busters (which is what is being talked about here) and the hurt caused by the affair will fade as she begins to understand things better. Understand that she may never fully comprehend how much pain she has caused you nor how much damage she has done to your relationship.

But when she says that you hurt her before the affair, this is the 50% ownership of the state of the relationship that gets talked about around here. Our spouse falls out of love with us because we commit acts that hurt him or her emotionally. These are Love Busters, BT. AOs, DJs, SDs, IB, Lying (all forms) and even some of those things that she once found cute that have now become annoying habits that drive her crazy. They can all take away from the Love Bank and can cause hurt feelings.

Think about things she complained about, not during the affair, but a year ago, or even two or three. Look back to see what she was complaining about BEFORE she dropped into a state of Withdrawal and wanted nothing to do with you.

Be careful as you introduce her to MB that you don't do it by using SDs, DJs and AOs. Also beware the dreaded IB in the name of improving your relationship. The single most important thing you can do right now is to begin spending time with ehr, not discussing the affair or who hurt who or what lesson in the workbook you need to tackle next but simply being together doing simply but fun things.

Limit affair and repair talks to small amounts of time, always scheduled and kept to the minimum you actually need to discuss it. You have been here long enough that you have the basics of MB down pretty well. She won't catch up for a while but while you wait for that, realize that you have to actually DO the MB stuff for it to work. Knowing it is not enough. You have to stop AOs, DJs and SDs. You have to examine your own behavior IB and begin following POJA (even without her ever learning it if necessary) and be honest about your own life including your feelings without being overbearing or domineering about the way you present things. And when she whines about those little things, like the socks on the floor of the bedroom beside the hamper instead of inside it, or the cap left off the toothpaste tube in the bathroom, or the toilet seat that was left up in the middle of the night that she sees as a trap she has to negotiate without turning on the lights...This kind of thing is the annoying habits part of the deal and you need to begin to create NEW habits to replace the old ways with things that take her feelings into account. Begin to replace thoughtlessness (things done without thinking)with thoughtful (things done as if by design) behavior.

If you are going to end up with a MB marriage in the end from all of this, now is when YOU have to begin following MB processes and methods. Just like during the affair, you can't control what she does or does not do only what YOU are going to do. So it's up to you to do it.

Unless the fantasy was pretty weak to begin with, realize that at least one attempt at contact is likely from one side or the other. How it is handled is more important than whether or not it happens. Watch for it, but don't turn it into a separate issue; it is all part of the same affair. If you don't learn of contact, don't worry about it, but watch for signs that it has begun to take place repeatedly. Snoop as much as you need but don't challenge her thinking if you find foggy emails to friends and family. (as long as these aren't newly acquired male friends)...

Mark
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 06/04/10 12:30 PM
As long as she's foggy she's a WW. You'll know when she's coming out of it by her actions. Don't put too much weight on her conversation with her mom - you caught it yourself. She may be saying a lot of things for your benefit.

Writing that NC letter is a big first step to de-fogging. Her willingness to do that will tell you a lot.
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 06/04/10 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Suddenly she has just told me that about a year ago she thought I was having an affair, and so she cant trust me either.

She's welcome to check up on you however she wants, right?

btw, don't give up all your snooping techniques.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: My thread - 06/04/10 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
She still seems upset with me for exposure, says it was an immature way to handle it.

I know you shouldn't say this, but if I were you, I couldn't help myself and say, "You are right, I may not be as mature as a 50 year-old."

Actually, I would say, I wasn't going for MATURE, I was going for EFFECTIVE.

Quote
I will stop putting (F?)WW. How do I refer to her?

Uh, WW.

Quote
Asked her if she had said anything in her car that she wouldnt have watned recorded when she went to her interview. Instead of the "OH CRAP" look I got the, "Wow... you bugged the car too?" look.

Don't give up your intel sources. You may still need them.
Posted By: YEG Re: My thread - 06/04/10 04:05 PM
Quote
We need to do an NC letter soon. I dont want to send it to OMWs house because, honestly, between her, her kids, and OM, none of them can agree on a story, so I dont know if ANY of them are actually telling the truth. I dont want NC letter to get sent to OM, opened and discarded by OMW.

I wouldnt worry about the OM actually getting the letter. I think its more important that she sends it.

Women especially need closure. Just sending it allows that to happen. Who cares if he has closure. He seems to be in it mainly for the Physical side. Now that its too big of a PITA he will likely move on to the next victim.

Best of luck to you brother and I'm praying for you.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 06/04/10 05:54 PM
Agree with YEG...

Whether or not OM ever gets the letter is not even the point in sending it. The whole point is that she states in her own words the willingness to attempt recovery and closes the door on a renewal of the affair. It is a demonstration of her recommitting to the marriage more than a threat to OM.

The test will be if she is contacted by OM in the future and instead of interacting with him in any way, shape or form informs you of his attempted contact.

Mark
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 06/04/10 07:49 PM
Quote
He'll be different with you, you're special.
Author Unknown

You two have a "connection," a rapport that he didn't have with his wife. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He's pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike - it's just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you are - and he's the first person to really do that, isn't he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it's different with you. He couldn't possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it's so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn't it? It's hard being on your own, managing a household, and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here's this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. He couldn't possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that's where you are vulnerable. He couldn't be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it's part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn't mean he's doing that with you. He's really sincere this time.

He's told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He's acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and "honest". And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won't do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You're special. So what if he told his wife the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his [censored] with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you.

He says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though he SAYS he accepts responsibility for his actions, he also says that it was really things in HER that brought out his bad behavior. He's not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, he said the same things to HER, but this time he'll be different, because he's told you how YOU are different from her. (So what if he's told other people how you remind him of HER? That doesn't mean he's following the same old patterns, targeting the same types of women. That doesn't mean that he'll be turn emotionally abusive with YOU at some point...) He's such a sweet, wonderful, helpful guy, it MUST have been something in HER that caused him to act badly, right?

So what if he was busy cutting her down behind her back with their mutual friends while he was telling her she was the "best thing that ever happened to him", and that he had "never loved anyone as much as he loved her"? That doesn't mean he still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. He was just confused, the poor man. And besides, he won't be like that anymore, with the right woman to love him and dote on him. She just didn't give him the kind of attention he really needed. But YOU will. So he'd NEVER do that to YOU.

So what if he didn't leave his wife before he got together with you? It's not like an abuser should spend a few years in therapy, and work on his stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after over 4 decades of emotional abuse and being an abuser, he can get himself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right woman to rescue, er, "help" him.

And those stories of how his wife emotionally abandoned him... He's just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man - here he was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counselor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave... He couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too! If his wife didn't trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior - it must have been HER issues.

Even if in his past, he DID say, "Some of the problems I bring about by vamping, pumping up the emotional content of a situation. Of course that's easy to do with a new friend. I have a stock of techniques and behaviors, tested. I'm also inventive ... so I pick up new techniques fairly quickly ... It's just I'd rather enjoy the "romance". It comes naturally to me. I enjoy doing it. It's also a head trip for me, with my poor self esteem, to have someone so taken with me. I like the first results, the joyous feelings, the elation, the euphoria, just not where it leads." ... he couldn't possibly still have been doing that with his wife, or even YOU. He has REAL, deep feelings for you. You've even seen him cry and show his vulnerable side. That MUST mean he's sincere, right? He couldn't possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the man YOU know.

He's just so caring and sensitive and considerate. He's so sweet, rubbing baby oil all over you, making love, sending you little cards, doing all those romantic things. He really does seem too good to be true - cooking, cleaning, intelligent, literate, creative, affectionate. So what if he was like that for the first year or so with her too... before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that "wonderful" behavior shifted until he was telling her he loved her one day and then telling others how horrible she was behind her back the next? He wouldn't do that to you too, down the road. She must have brought it out in him. He couldn't possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. No. This time, he'll be different, with you.

So what if he has been incapable of honesty and integrity all his life? So what if he actually admitted to his wife (just about the time you two started up again): "I am afraid of truth-tellers. I have so many lies in my past and present. The truth burns." That couldn't mean that he was telling lies to YOU. After all, he was so HONEST about his dishonesty so THAT'S got to count for something... It must mean he realizes his mistakes and won't make the same ones again, right? The fact that he acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If he acknowledges it, then he couldn't possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. He had HER convinced too. But he couldn't possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You're special.

Yeah, sure, he might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn't have any danger of repeating itself with you. Because you're special. His love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that's what he has told you, and you know you can trust him, right?), he wouldn't EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. He wouldn't undermine YOUR support network and use your friends to hurt YOU. He'd never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back and then make sure you found out about it. No no no. She must have brought that out in him. But you, you're special.

Besides, he's been in therapy. That must mean he's sincere, right? He wouldn't possibly be using the whole "therapy" thing as a cover-up to make himself look better because his reputation got damaged after the fiasco with his wife. He couldn't possibly be using contrition, and the "I feel so bad about myself"-line to get sympathy and support! He couldn't possibly be going after women who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because he knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HIS sick feelings. He couldn't possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated women, so that he can PUNISH them when they don't direct all that energy to HIM. Just because he has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn't mean he would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You're SPECIAL.

He's so contrite and sincere about "working on his issues", he couldn't possibly be lying about that. Just because he has a history pathological lying to himself and others, doesn't mean he'll be that way with you. Besides, if he has deceived himself so completely that HE doesn't know it's a lie, then he can't be held accountable for it, right? He can always claim that he doesn't have good "memory" for things in the past. But don't worry. He won't use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You're special.

The poor guy just made bad choices before (you). Sure he made mistakes, but if his ex doesn't want to have anything to do with him, and now think he is mentally ill, it must be because SHE is unstable - I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming he is with you... He couldn't possibly have been like that with HER TOO... He wouldn't be using stock romance "lines" on YOU.
This time, it's REALLY love. You're Special.

Sure, he did a *few* things in his past that were unkind, but he needs to be forgiven for HIS behavior, (after all, she drove him to it), but HER mistakes and reactions to his emotional abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. He won't think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. He won't apply a double-standard to YOU. He won't expect YOU to be perfect and subtely criticize you when you don't measure up to his standards. You're the one who is going to change his life.

And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE he can't forgive her for doing things that *hurt* him (he's so deeply sensitive, you see) - but he couldn't possibly have lied about the things he said she did. He couldn't possibly have "set up" situations so he could cry foul... He wouldn't have ENCOURAGED her to do things so he could later claim that he was hurt by her... And, well, even if he DID, maybe do that, he certainly won't do it with YOU. You're too special for that. Any time he tells you he's happy for you and he encourages you to do something, he'll REALLY mean it, with YOU. He won't create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that he can insist you did things to hurt him as a justification for his cruelty to you. He won't secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to him. Even if he DID do that with her, he won't do it with you. Especially after he makes all those sacrifices for you. He won't secretly be dependent on YOU for all his attention. He won't be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don't give it all to him. Not THIS time. You're SPECIAL.

He's such a nice guy, he won't "help" you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like he did with all the others. He's going to claim his right to be "selfish" now, because he's been so USED from all the excessive GIVING he did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor guy. He's never taken time to be selfish in the past - not even when he was sitting alone in his room, sucking off his hurts, or using other people. That wasn't selfish - that was just "acting out". But he's better now. Don't worry. He won't use his new-found right to be "selfish" against YOU. No. He really is a changed man, with you. With you he will give unconditionally.

It's no WONDER he behaved so badly! Look at how his wife was always hurting him, oppressing him with her refusal to live her life solely for him, expecting him to be honest with his feelings and actions, when he just wasn't ready. And besides, he just can't handle confrontation, you know? And like, she's just so SCARY when she's upset (it's just so unbeCOMing when women display any anger!) that he HAD to act that way. She actually raised her voice at times! Can you imagine? Nobody else is allowed to have anger and raise their voice except HIM. Because, like, he can't DEAL with it, and he shouldn't be expected to! He couldn't possibly have been projecting HIS issues on her so that someone else could have his anger FOR him, or so that he could get angry with someone other than himself! He couldn't possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all her hot buttons to hurt and upset her so he could lay blame. And, well, even if he DID do that for years, he won't do it anymore, with you.

And if somehow you accidentally do things that "trigger" his old abuse patterns, he'll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind him of her, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn't want him to start acting emotionlly abusive again because of something YOU did.

And you don't have to worry about that, because you'll never get upset with him, and you'll never challenge him to be honest or to accept responsibility for his actions. SHE did that, and it was "controlling," but it'll be different with you, because you know better. And you won't need to worry about calling him on his behavior anyway, because he'll NEVER lie to YOU. He'll always be completely honest and upfront with you. He won't have to "forget" any promises he made to YOU. If he is inconsiderate, it won't be DELIBERATE, with you. If he lied to her or anyone else, it was because they drove him to it. With you, he won't withhold information, or distort or omitt the truth. He won't break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. He won't HAVE to, because you'll be right there validating him 24/7, supporting him and telling him how he's so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that he is working so HARD to overcome his terrible past!

And it's a good thing he's not going to do any of those things he might have done in the past, because then you won't have to worry about forgiving him. You see, she REPEATEDLY forgave him for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose "mistakes", and all that did was make him feel bad about himself - that she could forgive and he couldn't. Wasn't that AWFUL of her to make him feel so bad that way? So she DESERVED to be punished even more. And she should NEVER have shown any guilt when he manipulated her. It just caused him to hurt her more. He told her it was "like blood in the water for sharks" for him. She should have known better. YOU know better. But then, he won't be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU. He'll be different with you. You're SPECIAL.

And sure he made her work at the relationship when he wasn't really trying, but that wasn't being dishonest - he just didn't know what he really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on her. Sure he admitted that he wanted her to make him the first priority in HER life, but he wasn't willing to afford her the same consideration. But that wasn't one of his patterns. He won't do that with YOU. Besides, he admitted his dishonest behavior after he abandon her, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. His slate's clean. He even said he was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere he was. He couldn't possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. He's not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues.... and well, if he is, he's only doing that with HER because of their history - he wouldn't do that with YOU.

And it's so sweet how he still talks about how much he cared for his wife, how much he did for her out of love. Sometimes, he even talks fondly of his treasured memories of her, of how she "helped" him (when she wasn't hurting him, the witch) - that must mean he's a deep, sensitive guy, right? Maybe you can even "help" him to forgive her and heal from his terrible past... Just like SHE thought she could "help" him.

And besides, he did so many NICE things for her and all those other women. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It's not like he was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It's not like he HIT anyone or anything. At least the things he did didn't leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, he probably just made honest mistakes, that's all. He couldn't have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. He wouldn't have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone's face while she was crying. Not the man YOU are involved with. HE certainly doesn't remember doing anything like that - and HIS memory is inviolate.

He's told you how different he feels with YOU. How different he IS with you. How healing your love is. How much he NEEDS you. What a wonderful person he thinks you are. How important you are in his life. How much he values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed he feels now that he has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU. So what if he told her the same things? He really MEANS it this time, with you. He's a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You're special.

You don't need to talk to any of his ex's to find out what he was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn't possibly learn anything from their experiences, because he's not going to be like that anymore. It couldn't possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust him to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about his past (as far as he can "remember" it), right?

And he's such a sensitive, caring guy, he REALLY does wish he and his wife could be FRIENDS now. He can't understand why she would have NO desire to have any contact with him, NO desire to have anything to do with him - after all he did for her, after what they had. After all, SHE is the one who did unforgivable things. He's so uncomfortable around her now, because of how much she hurt him. He wouldn't STILL be projecting HIS issues on her, and implying that they are HER issues... After all, he's a changed man.

But you don't have to worry. He won't PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told him in confidence to other women - he won't betray your trust - like he did with her. No matter what happens between you and him, you'll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and he will always be able to work things out. So what if he said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HER (and all the others) too? It'll be different with you. You're special.

He won't wait a year or two before he starts in on YOU. He won't then use his knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. He won't start using psychological warfare to couch his deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. He won't flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to him, against YOU. NO. He won't tell you that you just weren't meeting his needs or living up to his expectations. He won't expect you to read his mind. He won't try to make it look like YOU are the reason he is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. He won't set you up to get upset with him so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with him, (or you get so angry with him that he HAS to break it off with YOU) and HE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if he made all the same promises to her? Just because he was following some of his old patterns when he got involved with you, doesn't mean he's going to follow through on the rest of them. He's CHANGED now.

You're special. Just like SHE was when he was with HER. Just like they ALL thought they were.

YOU are the one who can "fix" his wounded ego. Your relationship with him will be So Much Better than his last ones, because you're special! With you, he'll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in his life. He won't become cruel or passive-aggressive. He won't play headgames anymore. He'll stop using and discarding people like old kleenex. He won't be rude or unkind or disrespectful like he was with those other women. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, HE'S NOW A CHANGED MAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because he's removed himself from relationships and taken some serious time to get his [censored] together. Not because he's done any REAL work. Not because he's actually admitted to his real motivations, or made a single sincere change.

He just needed to find the RIGHT woman to "save" him from himself and "help" him become a better man, and that's YOU.

You just KNOW he'll be different with you. Right?

The above was written a long time ago by -who knows who?
It is a message often shared on "other woman" message/advice forums.

One day soon, you might share it with your WW.
When the fog is starting to clear, and there is some residual admiration she holds for OM and her feelings for him.

I just wanted to share it with you, albeit a little premature.

Take care

Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 06/05/10 05:38 PM
[Linked Image from cool-smileys.com]
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/05/10 11:32 PM
Hi Mark...

Thank you again so much for your posts..

And that one for the WW... that quote was huge... I must admit I only got about 2/3rds through it so far, but definately someday I will share that with her.

She said something off hand about OM today, very negative, and then something about him being physically unnattractive. I was quiet, but it was very interesting to watch her both times as she:

1) seemed to realize what she had just said
2) realize the truth of the statement
3) then question what that means in relation to she has done
4) realize again how messed up she was, kinda slump her shoulders
5) look over at me to see if I saw all that

Mark... thank you so much again.

Yes, you are right. I need to pay even more attention to the complaints of 6 months+ ago (before OM ever was known).

Also, the not doing SDs and DJs to get her to MB. Actually, Jennifer sold her on MB principles with the promise of "if you follow it, you will fall in love with eachother and be happy again."

She is already on it. We are 3 chapters into HNHN together, and she wants to read it all now because she says so far everything is just dead on and explains so much.

So yes, I need to limit my bringing up affair / relationship stuff
need to avoid my LBs of the past.
REALLY WORK ON LISTENING. I am doing much better at this I think.

Thanks again Mark, and everyone else cheering for us.

She just finished dinner.... domestic care one of TOP ENs fo rme, yay
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/06/10 01:47 AM
BTintrouble, I am bursting with pride at how you stood up to the OM and led your family out of th darkness. WOW. WOW. You did a good thing, Sir. I just love a brave person. smile
Posted By: BCboy Re: My thread - 06/06/10 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
IDK what Jennifer said to her.

Thanks for all the encouragement guys.

BCboy, you words touched my soul and your compassion helps me really believe that someone else understands what this is like.

I love my wife, I want to be a family...
but when I look at her, and think of her, its with him... and it hurts very badly.

I want to be strong, conquor this, and be the best husband and father possible,

but the price is very high.

I dont think she can understand how high it is to me.
Actually BT your behavior and actions are an encouragement to me. You are acting with such maturity and responsibility, and you are being a good example for your children. Regardless of her actions, no matter what she does, or what she realizes, does not have to impact how YOU behave.

Her actions will hurt and haunt you. It will take time to heal. Eventually she will realize what she has done to her family. I suggest that if you continue with your current behavior she will come to admire and respect you. Eventually she will realize you are the prize. BT you are to be commended for persevering with honor, and care for your family, in the face of the most adverse circumstance you will ever have to face.

Despite your pain, do not tire of doing good. No matter how this turns out you will know you are an honorable man.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/06/10 03:35 AM
I am on tonight...

I need to find something I think about triggers?

I dont know... I said good night to her, we had a good moment, but then I took a shower and thought, "what if I had come home earlier last friday, and he hadnt left yet and I caught them actually here in person?"

Lots of very bad, CSI style images and now I am pissed and cant sleep and DEFINATELY dont want to sleep next to her.

I will look on here for them. If anyone knows a link that is still awake for some gawdawful reason, feel free to post it.

Thanks BCBoy and Mel for your words of encouragement. I hope you are right. I am wondering how fine I should tread this tightrope.

I want to be open and honest with her, but I am sure I shouldnt tell her at times I picture my hands white knuckle gripped around her cheating throat. I want to share and express myself to her, but I am not sure telling her of the hollow emptiness, loss, pain and abject humiliation I feel as a result of this is the right thing to do.

I HOPE you are right that we can "get there" where I can share those things.

At this point, she still occasionally avoids questions, "Can you ask me that tomorrow?" and per Mark and lots of MB literature I shouldnt be asking most of those questions anyway... but sometimes I feel like I am dying to know things like:

She points out a restaraunt she wants to go to with me, did they go there together already?

She mentions something that reminds me of a time she "went out," did they meet then?

She hasnt told me (avoided it once for sure) how it started.

Then there are things I am not sure I WANT to know but am SURE that I want to feel like I COULD ask them, and trust I would get an honest answer:

How do I compare to him? Did she do things with him she hasnt done with me? Did they defile places in our house besides "just" our bed? Our car? Other blankets?

I am sure this is just torturing myself, but I dont even trust her to give me an honest answer about anything yet and it is just killing me...

We read through Basic Concepts, Emotional Needs up to Domestic Support tonight, think there are 3 left. Jennifer asked us to do the ENQs and to prepare "I'd like it if..." positive, specific behavior statements for how we want our top 5 needs filled.

I am 99% confident she has not contacted OM since the last phone call. I can account for nearly all of her time (I was with her all week since she came home), I have searched our room, her bags, "her" car (the one she normally drives), have had her under VAR surveilence, and have checked the phone bill against her phone, verified all strange numbers. I am sure there are 1 or 2 things I have done besides that.

Basically, I am confident at this time she is not in contact with him.

I do not know what Jennifer has planned for us Monday night.

I know we both went and got tested yesterday (Friday). Results should be back in 7 days or less.

It is really not very neat, because I want her all the time, even when I loathe the sight of her, I still want her. Even when I can see nothing but a cesspool of defiled filth, I want her.




Thank you all for your encouragement and positive thoughts. I honestly dont feel so brave and wonderful, mature, responsible, etc etc.

I mostly feel sick. Love, then sickness, in waves, back and forth.

Do I tell her this?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/06/10 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
IAt this point, she still occasionally avoids questions, "Can you ask me that tomorrow?" and per Mark and lots of MB literature I shouldnt be asking most of those questions anyway... but sometimes I feel like I am dying to know things like:

She points out a restaraunt she wants to go to with me, did they go there together already?

She mentions something that reminds me of a time she "went out," did they meet then?

She hasnt told me (avoided it once for sure) how it started.

BT, I think there has been some misunderstanding about this part, because you most definitely DO need to ask these questions now and get full and complete answers in order to recover. The SOONER you get the answers, the sooner you can move forward.

Did Dr Chalmers tell you to wait on this very important step for some reason? Because unless she told you to wait, then you need to be doing this NOW.


You must have your every question answered to your satisfaction. Nothing short of complete RADICAL HONESTY about her affair will suffice:

Originally Posted by Requirements for Recovery
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=qa080103bc
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
here
Posted By: Pepperband Re: My thread - 06/06/10 04:00 AM
BT
Those feelings ... Are ... Terrible ... And ... Normal.

Unfortunately, there is no way around them.
You must push through them.
Recovery is WAY harder than plan A or B .... In case no one told you already.

You write the way Bob Pure wrote when he was early in recovery.
Have you read any of his old posts?

You can do this.
But, be warned.
It is hard, and it takes years.
It is worth it, in my opinion.

Regards.

Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 06/06/10 04:55 AM
BT,

Just to be sure you understand me...

You need to have your questions answered. I suggest that you write down your questions and give them a day or so then read them over to see if they are things you need answers to now or if they can be put off or perhaps as you think about some things you will actually be able to answer some of them yourself. But you have to be able to ask her anything and get a satisfactory answer, even if that answer hurts.

What you should avoid doing is spending every moment you are together rehashing the affair. Set a time to ask questions and get answers. Spend less time doing this or working out long standing problems than actually doing things that are enjoyable. Tough problems are sure to deplete Love Banks pretty quickly.

You need answers, BT. You can't simply pretend that nothing happened. But you have to avoid making your entire life revolve around things that are not actually making things better, only examining the train wreck for nuts and bolts.

You need to actually begin spending 15 hours or more of UA time together and I wouldn't call reliving the nightmare enjoyable time. So ask away but do it at a set time so that you don't keep going over the affair when you should be doing the rest of MB.

Get it now?

Mark

Posted By: BCboy Re: My thread - 06/06/10 05:04 AM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
BT
Those feelings ... Are ... Terrible ... And ... Normal.

Unfortunately, there is no way around them.
You must push through them.
Recovery is WAY harder than plan A or B .... In case no one told you already.

You write the way Bob Pure wrote when he was early in recovery.
Have you read any of his old posts?

You can do this.
But, be warned.
It is hard, and it takes years.
It is worth it, in my opinion.

Regards.
BT I think it goes without saying that you have the support and encouragement of the heavy hitters on MB like Melody Lane and Pepperband. I hope you will pay particular attention to Pepperbands council about reading Bob Pures posts. Pepper is also cautioning you about not expecting too much too quickly.

I would also like to point out recent example of
Detroit Tigers pitcher Armando Galarraga was one out away from completing a "perfect game," when the Cleveland Indians' Jason Donald hit a ground ball to first baseman Miguel Cabrera for the apparent last out. Galarraga covered first base and took the throw, beating Donald to the bag by a step. The umpire made the wrong call and Galarraga was robbed of his perfect game. You can imagine the disappointment this man must have experienced, he was robbed of an event that would go down in baseball history.

In my case I would have not noticed the perfect game, but I did notice how he responded. It is events like this that defines character, and this man provided an example that will be used to teach us all about grace, humility and forgiveness. The perfect game would soon be forgotten, but the example he provided will endure.

Was he disappointed. Undoubtedly and justifiably so. Are you upset. Undoubtedly and justifiably so. You need to work through your emotions and the betrayal. You are human, but you are behaving admirably. Don't deny your emotions. As Pepperband has so wisely stated that there is no way around them and you must push through.

You have some of the best this forum has to offer and you sound like you have the character to push through. You are no alone. You can do this.

May God Bless you and your family.

BCBoy
Posted By: TheRoad Re: My thread - 06/06/10 06:09 AM
The BH controls what he needs to know about the affair.

Best way to handle this is to have an affair discussion where you will make your your WW feel safe to answer your questions.

One schedule affair talk to two night per week for an hour at a time. Say Tueday and Thursday evenings.

When WW say's they did it in our bed. Don't blow your top. Calmly state that the bedroom furniture and bedding has to go. Tell WW the room needs to be reclaimed. Lets go to the paint store this weekend and reclaim this room. What color would you like me to paint our room.

The thing once a question has been answered it can't be untold. So go slow.
Posted By: YEG Re: My thread - 06/06/10 12:32 PM
Quote
The thing once a question has been answered it can't be untold. So go slow.

In my session I asked Steve Harley about the past. He says he does not do much digging. All he does is focus on how to prevent it again.

Personally I dont wanna know any more about the details than i have too. Doesnt mean I wanna gloss over the A. Just that i know all I need to know about it. She unfortunately knows all. Thats something she will have to deal with.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/06/10 01:35 PM
Every betrayed spouse is going to be different on the amount of information he needs to know. But the policy is always radical honesty. RH is a REQUIREMENT to recover. WS' that withhold information prevent recovery. As long as the BS has the basic outline with times, dates, how the affair started, it will then be up to the BS to determine how much more information he needs.

And the longer it takes to get the information out, the longer it takes to recover because every time it comes out, the couple is put back to Day 1 of recovery. So, it needs to come out EARLY and fully and completely. That way, the couple can move forward to the next step in recovery.

Just keep in what Dr Harley says:

Quote
"All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy."
here
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/06/10 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I am on tonight...

I need to find something I think about triggers?

I dont know... I said good night to her, we had a good moment, but then I took a shower and thought, "what if I had come home earlier last friday, and he hadnt left yet and I caught them actually here in person?"

Lots of very bad, CSI style images and now I am pissed and cant sleep and DEFINATELY dont want to sleep next to her.

I will look on here for them. If anyone knows a link that is still awake for some gawdawful reason, feel free to post it.

Thanks BCBoy and Mel for your words of encouragement. I hope you are right. I am wondering how fine I should tread this tightrope.

I want to be open and honest with her, but I am sure I shouldnt tell her at times I picture my hands white knuckle gripped around her cheating throat. I want to share and express myself to her, but I am not sure telling her of the hollow emptiness, loss, pain and abject humiliation I feel as a result of this is the right thing to do.

I HOPE you are right that we can "get there" where I can share those things.

At this point, she still occasionally avoids questions, "Can you ask me that tomorrow?" and per Mark and lots of MB literature I shouldnt be asking most of those questions anyway... but sometimes I feel like I am dying to know things like:

She points out a restaraunt she wants to go to with me, did they go there together already?

She mentions something that reminds me of a time she "went out," did they meet then?

She hasnt told me (avoided it once for sure) how it started.

Then there are things I am not sure I WANT to know but am SURE that I want to feel like I COULD ask them, and trust I would get an honest answer:

How do I compare to him? Did she do things with him she hasnt done with me? Did they defile places in our house besides "just" our bed? Our car? Other blankets?

I am sure this is just torturing myself, but I dont even trust her to give me an honest answer about anything yet and it is just killing me...

We read through Basic Concepts, Emotional Needs up to Domestic Support tonight, think there are 3 left. Jennifer asked us to do the ENQs and to prepare "I'd like it if..." positive, specific behavior statements for how we want our top 5 needs filled.

I am 99% confident she has not contacted OM since the last phone call. I can account for nearly all of her time (I was with her all week since she came home), I have searched our room, her bags, "her" car (the one she normally drives), have had her under VAR surveilence, and have checked the phone bill against her phone, verified all strange numbers. I am sure there are 1 or 2 things I have done besides that.

Basically, I am confident at this time she is not in contact with him.

I do not know what Jennifer has planned for us Monday night.

I know we both went and got tested yesterday (Friday). Results should be back in 7 days or less.

It is really not very neat, because I want her all the time, even when I loathe the sight of her, I still want her. Even when I can see nothing but a cesspool of defiled filth, I want her.




Thank you all for your encouragement and positive thoughts. I honestly dont feel so brave and wonderful, mature, responsible, etc etc.

I mostly feel sick. Love, then sickness, in waves, back and forth.

Do I tell her this?

BT this too is all very normal (sorry to say), and like Pep pointed out, recovery is not for the faint at heart and is the hardest part of all of this crazy mess.

It also is NOT a sprint, it is a MARATHON, that is why we all want you to take care of YOU too. DO NOT forget that part.

And you will have all kinds of thoughts in your head for a long time to come, and she will be foggy and goofy for a while yet, but you are doing AWESOME so far, keep up the good work.

And i agree with Mark about when she says anything that was a complaint PRE the POSOM, you need to listen to that, but do not be a door mat. I know it is all very hard and the line is very thin between not using AOs, DJS, LBs, meeting ENs and being a doormat but find the happy medium.

Also there is a very good thread over in the recovery section (started by Mark of course) about managing triggers and such. However right now i am not sure how much it will help as you are early into this and each time you find out something it will be a stab at your heart for sure, but just know that with TIME and BOTH of you working the plan it will be so worth it.......

Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/07/10 12:09 AM
Wow you guys...

thank you so much.

I did find Marks post on recovery and triggers. Have not read it yet.

At this point, everything "triggers" because I dont know any real details, so I ALWAYS wonder, "did they do it here? how about there? this sheet? this room? this seat of the car? Ooooh, she looks nice like that... did he see her in that? did he buy her that? she makes a comment about some day in the last month or so, immediate thought, "did they do it that day too?"

Its unendurable.

Ok, so we have to talk about this....

She is doing her ENQ per Jennifers "homework" assignment. Its due tomorrow. Last minute... yay... ok.

I am going to talk to her about this tonight.

I ended up leaving our room last night and sleeping on the couch because I just couldnt stand it anymore.

It feels so awful to be so mixed up.

I feel disgusted, ashamed, hurt, betrayed, humiliated, rage, anger, frustration, love, hate, replaced (like "leftovers"), like I'm the second choice.

And then I smile, "would you like some watermelon?"

I sure hope you guys are right about this being worth it.

My son better put me in a DAMN GOOD RETIREMENT HOME for this...

Ok, thanks for letting me vent.

I need this.

I need to not be venting to friends and family, if she is my wife, she needs to be my wife, where its us vs the world, and I dont need them against her, because then they are against me and thats just gonna be more bs I dont need right now.
Posted By: Scotland Re: My thread - 06/07/10 12:14 AM
I think that it has been said that during exposure you ask for help from friends and family but during recovery, it is time for YOU and YOUR WS to reconnect. And as you said, you want the us vs the world mentality. You CAN do this.

Have you thought about writing your questions out so you don't forget ones that you want answered. I have thought about what I would NEED to know to recover. I have a list started in case I ever have the chance to recover.
Posted By: YEG Re: My thread - 06/07/10 01:25 AM
Quote
Have you thought about writing your questions out so you don't forget ones that you want answered. I have thought about what I would NEED to know to recover.


Thats an excellent suggestion. Im gonna do that as well.

Quote
I ended up leaving our room last night and sleeping on the couch because I just couldnt stand it anymore.


You have to feel safe.

Quote
It feels so awful to be so mixed up.

i know exactly how you feel. Its sad, confusing and horrible all at the same time. I want to just shake my WW and ask her what she was thinking.

Quote
At this point, everything "triggers" because I dont know any real details, so I ALWAYS wonder, "did they do it here? how about there? this sheet? this room? this seat of the car? Ooooh, she looks nice like that... did he see her in that? did he buy her that? she makes a comment about some day in the last month or so, immediate thought, "did they do it that day too?"


I got my answers right after I busted them. The first few days I basically just hammered her with questions. I thought i was getting a D at the time so I really had no mercy.

My WW had the decency to never bring him to our house. The worse thing though is WW let OM around DD4 a few times.He even sent a B day card to DD4 last year address "Uncle OM". You gotta be kidding me. I cant believe that didnt wake me up then.
DD4 used to ask about him occasionally. She has a memory on her like a steel trap. Glad she hasnt asked for him since D-Day. I dont know what I would even do.

Triggers are hell though. I feel for you. Time has a way of healing those things I believe. Someone gave you some really good ideas about reclaiming rooms. There is also a really good post about the types of triggers running around. It had some good suggestions about overwritting negative triggers with positive events. As time goes on and you reconnect it will get easier.

Your couch wont be a place that something could have happened on. It will be a place that you curled up with her and held her.

Maybe you could take your WW to a drive in movie and hold hands.

A friendly food fight in the kitchen followed up by some affection while your still covered in flour and chocolate.

You have reclaimed your wife. You will reclaim your home and belongings too. Read back through your thread and look at the person that wrote it. Your a new stronger man that is fighting for his family. You WILL get through this.

I think about you alot BT since we both came here about the same time. Im praying for you every night when I ask God to help my M.
Posted By: JustKim Re: My thread - 06/07/10 02:54 AM
BT

I just read your thread completely through. I was just SICK for you as you discovered your W's A. I am so sorry for everything you are going through.

What you feel right now? It is completely normal. There isnt a BS here who hasnt gone through it. It is awful and you will obsess for a long time to come. It will be very easy to allow your W's A to consume you.

Do everything you can to not allow that to happen.

At some point, when things settle down a bit, this recovery will be less about all you are doing for your W and will shift to YOU and what you need. At some point, your W is likely to get what she has done and you will see remorse. During that time, it is normal to experience what is called "hysterical bonding" - You will fall deeply in love and you will hang on to one another as if your life depends on it.

When this happens, set the bar very high. If you do not do this and you settle for less than what you need in recovery, you will deeply regret it ( as I do ) later on.

As I read your thread, I found myself reacting to what was unfolding. At first, I was saying "NO NO NO" when I read the beginning, and how you couldnt see clearly what was going on. I found myself weeping for you and your pain when you discovered the truth and I found myself cheering for you as you did one of the most unimaginably difficult and brave things a person ever has to do.

I will continue to root for you. You may not believe this now, but....

You. Will. Be. Okay.

JK
Posted By: Kenmoore14217 Re: My thread - 06/07/10 04:11 PM
That was a wonderful post JustKim
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/07/10 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Wow you guys...

thank you so much.

I did find Marks post on recovery and triggers. Have not read it yet.

At this point, everything "triggers" because I dont know any real details, so I ALWAYS wonder, "did they do it here? how about there? this sheet? this room? this seat of the car? Ooooh, she looks nice like that... did he see her in that? did he buy her that? she makes a comment about some day in the last month or so, immediate thought, "did they do it that day too?"

Its unendurable.

Ok, so we have to talk about this....

She is doing her ENQ per Jennifers "homework" assignment. Its due tomorrow. Last minute... yay... ok.

I am going to talk to her about this tonight.

I ended up leaving our room last night and sleeping on the couch because I just couldnt stand it anymore.

It feels so awful to be so mixed up.

I feel disgusted, ashamed, hurt, betrayed, humiliated, rage, anger, frustration, love, hate, replaced (like "leftovers"), like I'm the second choice.

And then I smile, "would you like some watermelon?"

I sure hope you guys are right about this being worth it.

My son better put me in a DAMN GOOD RETIREMENT HOME for this...

Ok, thanks for letting me vent.

I need this.

I need to not be venting to friends and family, if she is my wife, she needs to be my wife, where its us vs the world, and I dont need them against her, because then they are against me and thats just gonna be more bs I dont need right now.

Yes you do need to have your questions answered or else it will be unedurable until that happens. And you are going to feel really mad and happy and pissed and sad all in the span of an hour (sometimes less).

Knowledge is power though, the more you KNOW about things and are not WONDERING (usually our mental images are worse than what actually occured or was said) the better some of that gets.

And definitely reclaim everything, i like the suggestion of painting the bedroom, or even making a different room in the house your bedromm (if that is an issue, it is not something i had to deal with so i am not sure if i could have, i may have had to move from my house but since it did not ahppen i do not know what i would do).

And when your son is old enough to find out what his daddy did for his family i am sure he will be so proud smile , however if you get the good retirement home out of him tell us your secret laugh ).
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/07/10 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
My son better put me in a DAMN GOOD RETIREMENT HOME for this...

I am so sorry, BT. frown I know how much pain you are in. One thing that will help is to find another place to live. Take that rotten bed to Goodwill and go buy a new one.

What date did you call Dr Harley on the radio, BT?
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 06/07/10 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
My son better put me in a DAMN GOOD RETIREMENT HOME for this...

I am so sorry, BT. frown I know how much pain you are in. One thing that will help is to find another place to live. Take that rotten bed to Goodwill and go buy a new one.

What date did you call Dr Harley on the radio, BT?

The 28th; Friday before Memorial Day. I doubt it's a memory BT wants to remember right this second, but it might be good to relisten to Dr. Harley's comments.

Here's the link:

http://richwith.com/mb/oldershows/05-28-10/
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 06/07/10 09:41 PM
It's segment C:

http://richwith.com/mb/oldershows/05-28-10/MB_052810_C.mp3
Posted By: JustKim Re: My thread - 06/07/10 09:52 PM
My H unfortunately chose to entertain the OW in our home as well. In fact, she was gracious enough to leave me a little parting gift in the form of her undies for me to discover.

Needless to say, the house underwent a somewhat significant remodeling. New paint, furniture, change in decor overall.

It doesnt look like the same rooms anymore but I have to tell you, overall - I cant say that it has made much difference.

Do you know why I think that is? I imagine that it must been a huge victory for the OW. She was screwing my H in MY house. MY house. The message that my H sent her by bringing her here is that he cared SO little about ME, about our home - that he would use it like a pay per hour motel.

I KNOW the OW was all smug about that. What she doesnt get is that the likely reason he brought her here is that he was too cheap to spring for a hotel. Prince Charming...
Posted By: Mememe Re: My thread - 06/07/10 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Knowledge is power though, the more you KNOW about things and are not WONDERING (usually our mental images are worse than what actually occured or was said) the better some of that gets.


Be careful, I found out that they went to a national hotel chain for SF, see them everywhere!!

Focus on the modus operandi, how did they pull it off? affair phones, secret e-mail accounts, etc. etc.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/07/10 10:34 PM
Thanks Markos!
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/08/10 02:30 AM
Called radio show at 3pm EST on 28 May 2010. I was holding the lid on a total exposure till after that call in, to see what Dr. H. said.

I could move from this house, sell my furniture etc, but I dont want to.

ITS MINE DAMNIT!!

Sorry. But it is MINE. I will NOT let OM take it from me. I wasnt even trying to neccesarily do anything to him other than expose the affair to get them to stop.

He lost his job and his friends, his wife has his money, his house, his kids, and I have my wife and house and kids.

He is a POSOM and this has wrecked his life. In the business he and I are in, its a small world. Everyone knows everyone. He will not be getting a job in this business anytime soon.

I didnt even work for these things. I exposed. The rest happened. Now, after that, I will not let him have my house or anything else either.

JK, thank you so much for your post. I don tknow how you made it through 61 pages but wow, thank you so much for your time and sharing your thoughts and prayers.

Same goes to all the rest of you that are basically holding me up through this.

I have been trying to do the "take care of myself" but the sleep thing is starting to get to me. I cant fall asleep till I pass out exhausted, then the alarm wakes me from a coma.

I dont think its helping that I am about as sexually frustrated as I think I have ever been in my entire life. Even while deployed to Iraq for a year I at least had 0 temptation. It was horrible but I wasnt around anyone that stirred the pot.

WW stirs the pot. She just... IDK, she just does it for me. Except I taste bile in the back of my throat when I think of her like that because OM pops in with his f*ing little laugh I remember from work and I just wanna shoot / beat / maim something, but... still want her. It makes me sick.

STD test results should be back sometime this week... guess that will be interesting.

We are in session with Jennifer right now, she is talking to WW in living room. We had homework to do ENQ and do "I'd like it if..." statements of how we want top needs fulfilled.

I realized that, "I'd like it if (positive specific statement)" are a HUGE tool for WW and I. WW has pretty much always used negative statements to give me feedback. Not so much "you are stupid" though that does come out sometime, but more of a "dont do this." The problem happens because I will specifically avoid doing that, but the thing I do instead fails to accomplish what she wanted and she gets upset saying I dont listen to her. I have in the past tried to explain that when she tells me not to do something, that doesnt tell me ANYTHING about what she WANTS me to do and therefore how am I supposed to know?

In retrospect, I could ASK for clarification, but I thought avoiding what she asked me not do was mighty nice of me seeing as its doing exactly what she asked of me, and I would get really upset when she would belittle me for being dumb and not doing it the "right" way.

This happened again tonight, except now WW knows what positive specific statements are and gets it. It wasnt a fight really, but she asked me not to do something, so I avoided doing it, she got mad, and I said,

"If you want me to do something specific, tell me positively and specifically what you want me to do so I know exactly what you want. If you just tell me 1 thing you DONT want, then I have the WHOLE WORLD as options that you may or may not want, and I cannot read your mind."

"All right, fine..." silence.

So maybe we are learning.

She still seems kinda foggy. Comparing her thinking I might have cheated on her a year ago but never investigating or saying anything about it till now to me actually catching her in our house. Comparing the pain and suffering she went through for years to what I must be experiencing now.

My Taker is so pissed off. Jennifers "Why are you doing this" list has saved my life many times already. Shuts up the taker for just a few minutes so I can get my head on straight.

Work was awkward today. Of course I percieve a big ol' elephant in every room I am in since everyone knows already. Probably me because its basically the ONLY thing on my mind, but I made an off hand comment. We have an interesting workplace, many people unhappy, and we dont have much to do this week so lots of people bored and unhappy. I said, "Makes you wish like, your wife would cheat on you or something so you could have something to do." Seemed to really lighten the mood, few people said supportive things, one guy used to be a friend of OM but he told me his own W was mad at HIM because she assumed he must have known about the A, but OMW told her that he didnt so now he is back in from the dog house.

I dont know if I should have said anything, but it seemed to make things a lot more light and less oppressive and people could just talk, say a thing about it or something, acknowledge it, and then we could move on to other stuff.

Did I mess that up?

Should I share that with WW? I want to. I take PORH very seriously and want to really commit to it with her.

Speaking of, apparently she doesnt like holding my hand while driving. Apparently never has. Apparently hadnt mentioned that for the last 5 years.

So I have to ask about that...

I like to touch. A lot. Kiss, hold hands, physical contact, cuddle, touch, basically, if we arent doing something that precludes it, I would rather touch...

Ok, nevermind... asked Jennifer about that one, its part of SF. I guess Affection is non-sexual, and my touching is most definately intimate, only done with W kind of stuff, so its part of SF. Cool, so not another EN.

Wife said something about "I dont have to do your need till you do mine, thats what HNHN says."

I said she should keep reading. She is about 1 page into chapter 2 right now...
Posted By: karmasrose Re: My thread - 06/08/10 03:07 AM
Uh, she is CLEARLY feeling super entitled right now.

She doesn't have to do anything til you do it first? Yeah....right.
Posted By: YEG Re: My thread - 06/08/10 03:24 AM
Quote
Be careful, I found out that they went to a national hotel chain for SF, see them everywhere!!


Im in the same boat MEME. At least mine is La Quinta and I never stayed in them. I dont wanna know any others. I love the hampton inns and im pretty sure she used my points one time(Pretty cold blooded if you ask me) to meet up with him for their sewer romps. I dont want those to be tainted so i just dont ask.

Quote
Sorry. But it is MINE. I will NOT let OM take it from me. I wasnt even trying to neccesarily do anything to him other than expose the affair to get them to stop.
You have nothing to be ashamed of. He knew what he was doing when he started this. They probably had a discussion about what the consequences would be.

I know my WW and her OM talked about how much trouble he could get in if he got caught. He is in the military. i bet it was a turn on for them, the danger. i have no sympathy for any negative actions he gets from this.

Quote
He lost his job and his friends, his wife has his money, his house, his kids, and I have my wife and house and kids.

He is a POSOM and this has wrecked his life. In the business he and I are in, its a small world. Everyone knows everyone. He will not be getting a job in this business anytime soon.
From his reaction it wasnt the first time he did this. he really sounds like a serial cheater. The important thing is keeping him out of the picture.

Quote
WW stirs the pot. She just... IDK, she just does it for me. Except I taste bile in the back of my throat when I think of her like that because OM pops in with his f*ing little laugh I remember from work and I just wanna shoot / beat / maim something, but... still want her. It makes me sick.


I never heard details from mine. I just KNEW they were together. So I can only imagine how horrible it is for you to have heard it. Till I confronted the OM I hadnt spoke to him in 15 years probably. We were never friends. I just know the evil he brought into my M and into my family.

For the last year I took care of my own sexual needs. We had SF maybe 2 or 3 times at most. She would get me to buy her something and then offer SF as a reward. It was total pity SF in retrospect and I knew it even then.

Since D-Day I only have took care of myself once in a moment of weakness. I know what its like to be sickened by the site of her and yet still want her. My WW has gorgeous hair and a wonderful rack. Every dress she wears just turns me on unbelievably.

I dont ever want to have pity SF again. I want her totally there if we ever do that again. I know if we did mess around it would just be out of guilt and pity. She would turn over right afterwards and not cuddle, kiss or anything that I need.

No thanks. Ill pass.

Over time as she starts meeting your needs again the good times will start overwritting the bad ones. MB will create romance in your relationship and your sacrifices now will be rewarded.

Quote
Jennifers "Why are you doing this" list has saved my life many times already.


What is that? Steve hasnt had me write one of those but i probably should look into it.

Quote
Work was awkward today. Of course I percieve a big ol' elephant in every room I am in since everyone knows already.
Then jsut talk about it with them. Everyone I work with is former military and very harse but i have recieved nothing but support from my friends. They saw the entire thing unfold so its like a personnel cheer section for me.

Quote
I said, "Makes you wish like, your wife would cheat on you or something so you could have something to do."


Im in a 2 year long class. We have to take regular tests. One of the guys were joking that their wifes only SF them if they get 100s.

My joke was, "maybe thats why my WW was sleeping with the OM. Hes just a better student!"

Then i realized that it was the 1 month anniversary of D-Day and I got depressed. Was still the first and only joke I made about it.

Quote
Wife said something about "I dont have to do your need till you do mine, thats what HNHN says."

I said she should keep reading. She is about 1 page into chapter 2 right now...


Read "the Love dare". Its a christian book that focuses on establishing unconditional love. I find that it has great ideas to re-establish a connection with my wife and strengthen my relationship with God. It talks about unconditional love alot. Someone has to blink first and meet needs. Since the penalty for acting first is a great M that focuses on meeting needs it might as well be me. It keeps me giving and keeps my taker beat down enough.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 06/08/10 03:50 AM
BT,

She is on chapter 3. Page 44 of the 21st printing says in the second paragraph:
Originally Posted by Dr H/HNHN
Since I begin this book with the wife's need for affection, I recommend that if your need for sex is not being fulfilled, take the initiative by learning to meet your wife's need for affection first.
Of course this only means what she thinks it does if she ignores the previous paragraph:
Originally Posted by Dr H/HNHN
I made my reputation as a marriage counselor convincing wives that if they met their husbands' sexual need, their husbands would be willing to meet their need for affection in return, and any other needs, for that matter.
The whole book hinges on the emboldened premise of the book itself as stated on the first page of chapter 1:
Originally Posted by Dr H/HNHN
...Become aware of each other's emotional needs and learn to meet them.

Marriage is a promise to meet each other's most important emotional needs and to only allow each other to meet specific ones of those needs.

So we know she is missing the point, but call her bluff. Meet her needs of affection and conversation. Bring it up again tomorrow.

Mark
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/08/10 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by markos

Markos, they changed around the links last night. crazy It has been changed to this: http://richwith.com/mb/Previous%20Programs/05-28-10/MB_052810_C.mp3
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/08/10 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Called radio show at 3pm EST on 28 May 2010. I was holding the lid on a total exposure till after that call in, to see what Dr. H. said.

I could move from this house, sell my furniture etc, but I dont want to.

ITS MINE DAMNIT!!

Sorry. But it is MINE. I will NOT let OM take it from me. I wasnt even trying to neccesarily do anything to him other than expose the affair to get them to stop.

He lost his job and his friends, his wife has his money, his house, his kids, and I have my wife and house and kids.

He is a POSOM and this has wrecked his life. In the business he and I are in, its a small world. Everyone knows everyone. He will not be getting a job in this business anytime soon.

I didnt even work for these things. I exposed. The rest happened. Now, after that, I will not let him have my house or anything else either.

Well that is AWESOME and I am glad you feel that way, some people would not be able to handle it, but you have done great up to now so if you think it is okay then GO FOR IT, reclaim the whole house again.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
JK, thank you so much for your post. I don tknow how you made it through 61 pages but wow, thank you so much for your time and sharing your thoughts and prayers.

Same goes to all the rest of you that are basically holding me up through this.

No problem, we have all been in your similar shoes at one time and we know the heart ache you are going through. Sometimes just an ear that you know that understands is enough to make you feel a little better.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I have been trying to do the "take care of myself" but the sleep thing is starting to get to me. I cant fall asleep till I pass out exhausted, then the alarm wakes me from a coma.

Oh yeah I had a horrible time with sleeping and eating in the beginning especially. I am not going to lie though; I went to the doctor and got on anti-depressants and a nerve pill to help me sleep. Getting a good night�s sleep helps for sure.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I dont think its helping that I am about as sexually frustrated as I think I have ever been in my entire life. Even while deployed to Iraq for a year I at least had 0 temptation. It was horrible but I wasnt around anyone that stirred the pot.

WW stirs the pot. She just... IDK, she just does it for me. Except I taste bile in the back of my throat when I think of her like that because OM pops in with his f*ing little laugh I remember from work and I just wanna shoot / beat / maim something, but... still want her. It makes me sick.

This too is normal, not easy but normal, it is amazing how much love and disgust you can have for a person all at the same time.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
STD test results should be back sometime this week... guess that will be interesting.

I hope all is well with this��..

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
We are in session with Jennifer right now, she is talking to WW in living room. We had homework to do ENQ and do "I'd like it if..." statements of how we want top needs fulfilled.

I realized that, "I'd like it if (positive specific statement)" are a HUGE tool for WW and I. WW has pretty much always used negative statements to give me feedback. Not so much "you are stupid" though that does come out sometime, but more of a "dont do this." The problem happens because I will specifically avoid doing that, but the thing I do instead fails to accomplish what she wanted and she gets upset saying I dont listen to her. I have in the past tried to explain that when she tells me not to do something, that doesnt tell me ANYTHING about what she WANTS me to do and therefore how am I supposed to know?

In retrospect, I could ASK for clarification, but I thought avoiding what she asked me not do was mighty nice of me seeing as its doing exactly what she asked of me, and I would get really upset when she would belittle me for being dumb and not doing it the "right" way.

This happened again tonight, except now WW knows what positive specific statements are and gets it. It wasnt a fight really, but she asked me not to do something, so I avoided doing it, she got mad, and I said,

"If you want me to do something specific, tell me positively and specifically what you want me to do so I know exactly what you want. If you just tell me 1 thing you DONT want, then I have the WHOLE WORLD as options that you may or may not want, and I cannot read your mind."

"All right, fine..." silence.

So maybe we are learning.

I think this is something that ALL married couples need to learn, sometimes I know we women do not want to tell our h�s because we think if we tell him then he is only doing it because we told him to, but like you said, if we don�t tell you then how will you know HOW to do it.

And I agree with the positive versus negative feedback, it is much nicer to hear �I would prefer you do it like this�, than �You just can�t do it right�

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
She still seems kinda foggy. Comparing her thinking I might have cheated on her a year ago but never investigating or saying anything about it till now to me actually catching her in our house. Comparing the pain and suffering she went through for years to what I must be experiencing now.

My Taker is so pissed off. Jennifers "Why are you doing this" list has saved my life many times already. Shuts up the taker for just a few minutes so I can get my head on straight.

This is justification and she will do this while she is foggy especially. Just try to remember that some day she hopefully will get it and understand what destruction she has caused to your life.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Work was awkward today. Of course I percieve a big ol' elephant in every room I am in since everyone knows already. Probably me because its basically the ONLY thing on my mind, but I made an off hand comment. We have an interesting workplace, many people unhappy, and we dont have much to do this week so lots of people bored and unhappy. I said, "Makes you wish like, your wife would cheat on you or something so you could have something to do." Seemed to really lighten the mood, few people said supportive things, one guy used to be a friend of OM but he told me his own W was mad at HIM because she assumed he must have known about the A, but OMW told her that he didnt so now he is back in from the dog house.

I dont know if I should have said anything, but it seemed to make things a lot more light and less oppressive and people could just talk, say a thing about it or something, acknowledge it, and then we could move on to other stuff.

Did I mess that up?

Should I share that with WW? I want to. I take PORH very seriously and want to really commit to it with her.

I think you made it easier for your co-workers, I am sure they did not know if they should say anything or not.

I am not sure if I would share it with your WW just yet anyway. She is probably still mad at you over exposure and if she thinks you are �making light� of it to your co-workers it may piss her off even more. Not that you are doing anything wrong, she was the one that brought it on herself, however for now I don�t think I would share that little tidbit of information unless she asks.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Speaking of, apparently she doesnt like holding my hand while driving. Apparently never has. Apparently hadnt mentioned that for the last 5 years.

So I have to ask about that...

I like to touch. A lot. Kiss, hold hands, physical contact, cuddle, touch, basically, if we arent doing something that precludes it, I would rather touch...

Ok, nevermind... asked Jennifer about that one, its part of SF. I guess Affection is non-sexual, and my touching is most definately intimate, only done with W kind of stuff, so its part of SF. Cool, so not another EN.

Wife said something about "I dont have to do your need till you do mine, thats what HNHN says."

I said she should keep reading. She is about 1 page into chapter 2 right now...

She is definitely still foggy in her thinking, just give it some time and keep doing what you are doing��..
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/08/10 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Mememe
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Knowledge is power though, the more you KNOW about things and are not WONDERING (usually our mental images are worse than what actually occured or was said) the better some of that gets.


Be careful, I found out that they went to a national hotel chain for SF, see them everywhere!!

Focus on the modus operandi, how did they pull it off? affair phones, secret e-mail accounts, etc. etc.

I don't know Me, i mean at least you know, how would you like to have been sleeping in that hotel chain without knowing.

It is what you chose to do with the KNOWLEDGE that is important. I know my FWH tooks his skanky FOW to a place that i like to eat, it was in a different part of town but still one of "our" date night places.

I have not given up going there, i do not want to go to the actual one he took her to, but i will not give her the satisfaction of me giving up one of my favorite places to eat, no way Nooo Nooo
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 06/08/10 10:03 PM
From Peggy Vaughn:
Quote
When a person discovers their mate is having an affair, their world suddenly turns upside down. In order to recover any sense of balance, they need to get more information and understanding of the situation. Without answers to their questions, they convince themselves that the answers must all be bad; otherwise why wouldn�t they be told what they want to know. They feel they�re being treated like a child, and they resent it. While it�s important to get answers to your questions IF you ask questions, this does NOT mean you �should� ask questions unless/until you really want to know. It�s just that it�s essential to get answers if you DO ask.

�Each person needs to decide for themselves the timing of when/what/how much they want to know. (It�s important to determine that you really want the truth, and are not just hoping for some kind of reassurance or disclaimers.) For most people, �not knowing� is worst of all � because their imagination fills in the blanks and the wondering never ceases. (Peggy Vaughan, from the article, �The Need to Know�
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/08/10 11:27 PM
Mark, that is EXACTLY IT!!

I dont know if I want all the answers to every detail, but I know that I need to KNOW that I would get the answers to ANY question I asked. That PORH is for real.

I am not sure I will ask all my questions I have written down.

To the person who asked last page:

Jennifer had me make a "Why am I trying to save my marriage?" List. On it are the things my Taker gets out of the marriage that I like a lot. The big point is to not put things like "For my family" or things like that. Those are Giver reasons. They are important, but they are not going to shut your Taker up when its 3am and you want to give up because you dont feel you should have to try anymore.

Your Taker is screaming at you to save yourself, screaming "WHY BOTHER?!?!"

This list is why you bother, and needs to have reasons that your Taker will accept and quiet down, at least enough to stop crying and pass out.

Things like "sex is awesome, domestic support" things your WS does for you that your Taker likes.

Hope that helps. I check mine a lot, occasionally add something to do it, but it helps to reread it and think, "Oh yeah, I DO remember when she would do that, and if we can get to the point where she does it again, that would be totally worth it."

Now, if it isnt worth it, then IDK what to tell you. Jennifer and I operated under the assumption that these reasons are enough to motivate me to save this. So far they have been.

Mark, thank you so much for the quotes.

I did call her on it, I just said "I guarentee it doesnt say that in any MB publication, that you dont have to meet my need until I meet yours. Keep reading, or show me where you found it."

I have been keeping going on her needs.

Jennifer, last night, had us inform our spouse of our I'd love it if... statements, basically, the guidebook to building love in our spouse. Our task for this week is to make our spouse fall in love with us. NOT worry about our own needs, but try to meet our spouses needs.

I have made an excel spreadsheet calender printed off for the next 2 months, with a check box for every bullet item she gave me, and have been checking them off as I do them. I am at 75% for today on daily stuff, with a few things planned for tonight.

At our next session Jennifer is going to go over Feedback Loops with us, to teach us how to tweak the way our spouse meets our needs in a respectful manner. I am excited for that.

For now, I am focusing on doing the things she has asked me to do fulfill her needs. None of them is really hard or something I wouldnt want to do so I feel ok with it.

On this forum I will say she is struggling to hit 1/3rd of my bullet points. That is a guess, because I am not really keeping track, but considering SF and related stuff made up a huge chunk of my statements, its kinda stacked against her I guess...

Anyway, we are doing the big questions tonight. We got 1/2 hr for me to ask about everything. Then we go see Shrek 3 and then done.

I hope this goes well. I am very nervous about it.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 06/08/10 11:48 PM
Quote
Jennifer, last night, had us inform our spouse of our I'd love it if... statements, basically, the guidebook to building love in our spouse. Our task for this week is to make our spouse fall in love with us. NOT worry about our own needs, but try to meet our spouses needs.
How interesting and right after the incident last night with the book...

Jennifer, are you reading here to see what's REALLY going on?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 06/09/10 12:16 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Mememe
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Knowledge is power though, the more you KNOW about things and are not WONDERING (usually our mental images are worse than what actually occured or was said) the better some of that gets.


Be careful, I found out that they went to a national hotel chain for SF, see them everywhere!!

Focus on the modus operandi, how did they pull it off? affair phones, secret e-mail accounts, etc. etc.

I don't know Me, i mean at least you know, how would you like to have been sleeping in that hotel chain without knowing.

It is what you chose to do with the KNOWLEDGE that is important. I know my FWH tooks his skanky FOW to a place that i like to eat, it was in a different part of town but still one of "our" date night places.

I have not given up going there, i do not want to go to the actual one he took her to, but i will not give her the satisfaction of me giving up one of my favorite places to eat, no way Nooo Nooo

Applebee's is out for us. It's not anything we've talked about, but FWH steers us away from it. It makes him sick to think about it. There's a little Italian eatery not too far from us that we need to reclaim, but I am just not driven enough to do it yet.
Posted By: YEG Re: My thread - 06/09/10 12:24 AM
Quote
Jennifer, are you reading here to see what's REALLY going on?

I can tell you Steve asked for my login ID when I had my appointment. I hope I dont get a bill for a session from him looking here.

He had nothing but good things to say about the forums though. He thinks its a wonderful community.
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 06/09/10 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by YEG
Quote
Jennifer, are you reading here to see what's REALLY going on?

I can tell you Steve asked for my login ID when I had my appointment. I hope I dont get a bill for a session from him looking here.

He had nothing but good things to say about the forums though. He thinks its a wonderful community.

Steve used to be administer of the forum, even to the point of doing some programming. (I chatted with him about that at the MB weekend.) I don't think he reads actively now. He also asked for my forum ID my first time, but I don't think he's read any of my posts.

Dr. Harley posts actively on the weekend forum.

For anyone interested in reading posts:
Steve Harley: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=2
Dr. Harley: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=7840

Should anyone ever see a post from Jennifer or Joyce, I would greatly appreciate a link.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/09/10 08:02 PM
I dont know. I gave my forum name to Elle when I made the appointment. She didnt indicate if Jennifer would use that or not.

Book incident? I am sure I remember what you are referring to, but I am not associating anything with book incident. Or is that the "book says I dont have to meet your needs till you meet mine" one?

That happened right after the phone call with Jennifer was over. I will mention it on Monday to her, but I am sure by then WW will be past that chapter. Its wierd because Jennifer said no LBs, and lecturing and educating is a DJ. I instruct for a living. Its my job. I know I dont know everything, but the things I DO know I know how to teach, to check for comprehension and establish neural schema's in an efficient manner and then re-enforce them via supervised drills and practical application.

But... its a DJ in a relationship, me assuming I know more.

So I have had to watch very carefully my lecturing.

I have been doing ok with it, waiting for WW to ask me my opinion or thought, and then offering it concisely and stopping when she indicates she understands.

Very new behavior for me, but good stuff. Always growing. So I still "lecture" or teach her MB stuff, but I do it when she asks. I guess its working because she asks more now that she seems to be comfortable with and trust that I wont treat her like a wayward 4 yr old that needs a stern talking to...

Hmmm...

got all my questions answered. It sucked. Shrek 3 wasnt bad, and served its purpose of allowing us to smile and laugh a bit together and overcome some of the bad feelings of the interrogation. I have the notes transcribed into electronic copy verbatim from my short hand, then a fully fleshed out one from memory / notes in the form of a staement. Now its all documented. I can hide the stuff and never drag it out unless OMW supoena's us for testimony at their divorce.

It sucked, but its quite liberating. It was MUCH worse listening to the audio the first time. I thought hearing all the details would have been worse..
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/09/10 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
got all my questions answered. It sucked. Shrek 3 wasnt bad, and served its purpose of allowing us to smile and laugh a bit together and overcome some of the bad feelings of the interrogation. I have the notes transcribed into electronic copy verbatim from my short hand, then a fully fleshed out one from memory / notes in the form of a staement. Now its all documented. I can hide the stuff and never drag it out unless OMW supoena's us for testimony at their divorce.

It sucked, but its quite liberating. It was MUCH worse listening to the audio the first time. I thought hearing all the details would have been worse..

I am glad. It usually is the case that are imaginations are much worse than what really happened, but i am sure the audio was a killer........

BT you are doing such a great job, i am so glad that you to moved your thread over here and that you snooped and exposed........

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/09/10 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Applebee's is out for us. It's not anything we've talked about, but FWH steers us away from it. It makes him sick to think about it. There's a little Italian eatery not too far from us that we need to reclaim, but I am just not driven enough to do it yet.

There was a place that i had been to once or twice before that they went to and i have no desire to ever go there, but i WILL NOT give up my favorite place, i just have "let it go" when it comes to there.....
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/11/10 05:47 PM
Ok, some update...

Lots of progress. Lots of talking and working things out, lots of following and learning MB Principles and meeting eachothers needs.

OM tried to contact WW yesterday, she told me immediately, didnt answer his call, listened to the voicemail and told me that he said he would call today. He hasnt yet, but I got an address and know where he is and such (from OMW) so we are doing an NC Letter today. WW has been ...

Ok, I guess he just called just now while we were both sitting here in our room (I am home early). She said the area code, who's that? I googled it while still ringing, its Texas, and then we just listened to the message. Hes going to call back in 10 minutes.

At this point, I am going with ignoring his calls. I would like to answer and ask him what was unclear about staying away from my family, but I guess the idea I get from everything is to do NC. So IDK.

She will write her letter with me here, and I will send it and if that doesnt stop calls, than we will switch phone numbers, and at worst, switch to new ones... we discuss EP's and she is just as inventive as I am. Kinda neat. She said she would testify no problem if subpoena'd to thier divorce hearing, that she wouldnt teach her son to lie and they never should have done it in the first place.

I still check her phone, and still check the bill (to ensure she didnt answer, since it wont show up on the bill unless a connection was made). I still have the money under control, and my friends have still been staying here.

So far, everything seems good. We know we have lots of work to do, but we are moving in the right direction and we are doing it together.

Not sure i could ask for more.

I am so thankful for all of you and all of your help throughout this. I dont know where my life would be without the information and support found here. Shambles probably.

NOTE!! WW is now registered on the forums. She has said she is not ready to read my thread. I am not opposed to letting her see it at this time. She may post her own thread soon though. She is reading peoples stories and kinda feeling the air, then she will probably post.

I am telling you guys so that I can ask that you please dont tell me if you see her posts or figure out who she is, and dont tell her who I am.

We plan to share them at some point, but would like to that on our own.

Thanks again everyone.
Posted By: Scotland Re: My thread - 06/11/10 06:13 PM
It is fine that your WW would post on here. It is a GOOD idea to NOT read each other's threads. That is suggested here all of the time. If my WH ever comes here, I would WANT to know his screen name to make SURE I WOULDN'T read it. Same for him. I even told my Mom that if she came on here, I wouldn't want to read her thread and she shouldn't read mine.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/11/10 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok, I guess he just called just now while we were both sitting here in our room (I am home early). She said the area code, who's that? I googled it while still ringing, its Texas, and then we just listened to the message. Hes going to call back in 10 minutes.

.

BT, first off, she should not be listening to ANY of his calls. They should be deleted. But this has to be prevented NOW or it will lead to a relapse. I would get her a new phone # TODAY and cancel the old one. In the meantime, take her phone and when the OM calls, you answer and tell him to never call again.

These calls and her listening to the voicemails WILL LEAD to a relapse, so I would shut that down NOW.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 06/11/10 07:11 PM
Quote
BT, first off, she should not be listening to ANY of his calls. They should be deleted. But this has to be prevented NOW or it will lead to a relapse. I would get her a new phone # TODAY and cancel the old one. In the meantime, take her phone and when the OM calls, you answer and tell him to never call again.

ITA. BT, if he has your cell phone number you need to change that as well. If there is any other way you can think of for him to contact WW, cut off that avenue, too. Home phone? Emails? Change them.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: My thread - 06/11/10 07:48 PM
Ditto. You don't HOPE he sticks to NC - you ENSURE NC.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/11/10 08:14 PM
ITA too BT, you should not let her answer or listen to his calls.

And that NC letter needs to be sent yesterday.......
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/11/10 11:46 PM
K, so.. just read the replies...

Just came back from town, already changed her phone #, and she is writing NC straight out of Surviving An Affair now. I told her this morning about Chapter 5, and told her there is help on the forums. She read Chapter 5, and thought Kevins letter to Amy was exactly what she wants to say.

I did take her phone from her when I went and took a shower, and he called again while I was in the shower but I didnt know till after. Didnt leave any message, and she showed and deleted the other 2 messages today in front of me at the time he called.

So I can answer and tell him to F* off (in different terms maybe, but make the idea clear?)

Cool...

That takes care of her phone, I always have mine, and really, she probably knows his number by heart so if she wanted to she could call from any phone... but, its not stored in any of ours. In my phone I changed his name to "POSOM" so at some point she might know what that means but not yet.

As for contact in person, all the neighbors (2 of them at least are horrid busy-bodies, though its a good thing in this case) know to call the police if they see his truck or him around here. He has been told by me that if his coming around here and trespassing will not be tolerated in clear terms. That takes care of our residence.

WW is not allowed to check or open mail. Now, I cant stop her from going to pick it up if I am at work, so there is a hole there. I dont really know how to close that. I guess I could get a PO Box and have all mail delivered to our address put in the PO Box? Or, can I have the post office Return to Sender anything addressed from him? I guess I just dont know much.

The things I would worry about from Mail are him sending her a secret phone I cant track. But, I still VAR the car randomly and check for anything like that. Also, I do room searches and stuff.

I dont think there is a way I can stop her from making contact if she really wants to.

What I CAN guarentee is that she wont be able to keep it up for long before I inevitably find out.

She also knows if she does this again, I'm done. I did it once and am fixing myself, so is she, we are making an MB marriage 1 day at a time. Its not my fault she had an A, its hers, but I do know I participated in creating an A friendly enviroment.

After this, there wont be an A friendly enviroment. If she does it again anyway, I'm done. Just done.

I dont know that will stop a relapse.

Thanks for sticking around and continueing to help!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/11/10 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
That takes care of her phone, I always have mine, and really, she probably knows his number by heart so if she wanted to she could call from any phone...

I realise this, but without him calling, she won't be triggered. Anytime he calls triggers her and presents her with temptation.

And I hate to say this - I really do - but he will become more and more desperate to get through the more time passes because he won't be able to u-no-what.

Is your wife reading here, BT? If she is here, then your snooping techniques will be for naught. I would not bring her here yet. You may lose this forum as a resource if you do.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/12/10 12:04 AM
BT good job, you got the number changed and i hope that letter is sent or at least ready to be sent.

I am glad that your wife seems to be stepping up to the plate. And just keep doing what you are doing to verify NC. Don't make yourself crazy about, i think you are doing the right things now, because like you said if she really wants to make contact she will.

And no one would blame you for being donen if it happened again, heck you have that right now should you choose, but i think you really want this to work and it sounds like you both are on the right track just keep it up......
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/12/10 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
That takes care of her phone, I always have mine, and really, she probably knows his number by heart so if she wanted to she could call from any phone...

I realise this, but without him calling, she won't be triggered. Anytime he calls triggers her and presents her with temptation.

And I hate to say this - I really do - but he will become more and more desperate to get through the more time passes because he won't be able to u-no-what.

Is your wife reading here, BT? If she is here, then your snooping techniques will be for naught. I would not bring her here yet. You may lose this forum as a resource if you do.

Mel i do believe BT said they went and changed her number today after the calls.....
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/12/10 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Mel i do believe BT said they went and changed her number today after the calls.....

Yes, I saw that.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 06/12/10 01:51 AM
BT, hopefully by now you've changed your cell numbers so he can't contact either of you. You need to coldly, calculatedly make him DEAD to your lives. If he is able to contact you again you need to tell him that HELL IS COMING if he dares to interfere in your life again. HELL IS COMING, YOU POSOM. HELL IS COMING. SLOT IT IN ON YOUR FRANKLIN PLANNER.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: My thread - 06/12/10 02:23 AM
Just came back from town, already changed her phone #, and she is writing NC straight out of Surviving An Affair now. I told her this morning about Chapter 5, and told her there is help on the forums. She read Chapter 5, and thought Kevins letter to Amy was exactly what she wants to say.

I did take her phone from her when I went and took a shower, and he called again while I was in the shower but I didnt know till after. Didnt leave any message, and she showed and deleted the other 2 messages today in front of me at the time he called.

So I can answer and tell him to F* off (in different terms maybe, but make the idea clear?)


If you already changed her cell # how did he call? Just curious.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/12/10 11:05 AM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Just came back from town, already changed her phone #, and she is writing NC straight out of Surviving An Affair now. I told her this morning about Chapter 5, and told her there is help on the forums. She read Chapter 5, and thought Kevins letter to Amy was exactly what she wants to say.

I did take her phone from her when I went and took a shower, and he called again while I was in the shower but I didnt know till after. Didnt leave any message, and she showed and deleted the other 2 messages today in front of me at the time he called.

So I can answer and tell him to F* off (in different terms maybe, but make the idea clear?)


If you already changed her cell # how did he call? Just curious.

mb,

They did not change her number until after the calls......
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/13/10 11:34 AM
Hmmm.... he called one day. Again next day evening. Then we changed her number. Next day (yesterday AM) I sent her NC letter (basically ver batim from the SAA book, so seemed good to me).

Hope that catches you guys up...
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/13/10 11:44 AM
The NC letter has been sent hurray hurray !!!!

Things are progressing along BT, you are doing great.

Like i said just keep verifying NC (like you have been don't mke yourself crazy) and keep working on the MB stuff.

And make sure you get that 15 hours a week in, i know that will be harder for you two because of the little one, but it is very important.

How's the sleeping and eating going? Any better? Have you heard about the test results yet?

Just try to take care of yourself and keep up the good work.....
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/13/10 04:32 PM
We are clean.
I am eating and sleeping much better.
I think SF was a huge weight but thats much better now. Jennifer told us both to not worry about our own needs and to focus on our spouses ENs and meeting them.

We are both doing a pretty good job I think. Next appointment with Jennifer is tomorrow so we will get another good lesson there I am sure.

WW is still reading MB stuff when she gets time. We are getting 15+ hours a no problem right now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/13/10 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Hmmm.... he called one day. Again next day evening. Then we changed her number. Next day (yesterday AM) I sent her NC letter (basically ver batim from the SAA book, so seemed good to me).

Hope that catches you guys up...

Good job, BT!! Do you have the OMW's email address? If so, I would shoot her an email and let her know that her H is still pursuing your wife. She needs to know this information for several reasons: she may be getting a divorce and it would be valuable info for her case and if she is trying to save her marriage she would need to know.'

It is a good idea to keep each other informed.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/13/10 11:27 PM
Ok thanks Mel. In other news I dropped my phone in the tub while bathing my son. So new phone, had been planning to get a smartphone anyway soon, so now I am posting on MB from my phone and I have a new number.

K nother thing. WW is mad @ me cus she was trying to help me with this phone but I wasn't doing what she told me to do when she said it. She is being distant and doesn't want to talk about it.

Yay for fights
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/13/10 11:43 PM
Well it must have just been meant to be that you got your new phone now smile .......

And yes it sucks that she is mad right now, but it is okay, she got mad about things before. And she has gotten over it (think about exposure).

Actually it may be a good thing, it means things are getting back to "normal".... whatever normal is crazy
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/13/10 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
We are clean.
I am eating and sleeping much better.
I think SF was a huge weight but thats much better now. Jennifer told us both to not worry about our own needs and to focus on our spouses ENs and meeting them.

We are both doing a pretty good job I think. Next appointment with Jennifer is tomorrow so we will get another good lesson there I am sure.

WW is still reading MB stuff when she gets time. We are getting 15+ hours a no problem right now.

This is also wonderful news, i am so glad for both of you!!!!!!!
Posted By: markos Re: My thread - 06/14/10 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok thanks Mel. In other news I dropped my phone in the tub while bathing my son. So new phone, had been planning to get a smartphone anyway soon, so now I am posting on MB from my phone and I have a new number.

K nother thing. WW is mad @ me cus she was trying to help me with this phone but I wasn't doing what she told me to do when she said it. She is being distant and doesn't want to talk about it.

Yay for fights

Keep meeting ENs and avoiding Love Busters. If you weren't enthusiastic about what she wanted you to do, it's okay if you didn't do it. Just don't Love Buster HER over it!

Also, dwelling on mistakes of the past or present is an enemy of good conversation, and I guarantee you guys need to be working on intimate conversation right now, so don't dwell on it any more than she wants to. Find something else to talk about. smile
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/14/10 09:17 PM
Ok, big update.

So today is 2 weeks since WW came home.

Since then we have had 2 phone sessions with Jennifer. We have a 3rd tonight. 1st session got me going on stop LBs, and WW going on what to expect during withdrawal and selling her on the marriage and getting her buy in and acceptance on what she did and how it affects trust and what is going to have to happen for her to earn it back. First week was ok. WW acquiesced to all EPs / snooping I wanted to do. She seemed happy at times and was at least pleasant the majority of the time. I did a fairly decent job of not egging on fights.

Second week with Jennifer saw us doing the ENQ, and composing "I'd love it if..." statements to instruct eachother on what we need to do to meet eachother's needs and build love. This second week has been pretty good over all.

1) Got questions answered, I feel like I know everything that is worth knowing about, when and how it happened, etc.
2) OM attempted contact and WW (per current phone bill evidence) apparently did NOT answer, just as she said
3) Have changed both WWs and my telephone numbers.
4) Sent package with 3 things that belong to OM along with an NC letter on Sun. Should arrive on Tues, with OM being the only person who can sign for it.
5) Tests coming back clean as well as a personal closeness means SF has become a presence again which is a huge weight off of me
6) We have had a few disagreements or fights, but have not gone to sleep angry with eachother as best I can tell.

Couple things that are popping up that annoy me. WW occasionally apologizes,

sort of...

Loading groceries in the car. She made a statement that thoroughly confused me so I asked for an explanation. "Shut up..." Later, after a long discussion where I basically said, "I do not appreciate being told to shut up, why did you say that?" Lots of explanations and justifications that I didnt even dispute, just repeated that I didnt "appreciate being told to shut up, why did you tell me to?" Finally, this came out:

"I'm sorry I told you to shut up, It's just, I couldnt think of any other way to make you stop asking me questions and its hot outside and you werent loading them the way I wanted and the groceries were going to get warmer, and I just didnt know another way to make you stop."

yeah... I do not appreciate apologies like that. Its NOT an apology. Its an

"I regret that you are at fault, and that you forced me to do something bad to fix you."

After I think the 3rd incident like this, I asked her why her apologies keep going after "I am sorry?" She said something about how I just dont understand things and she needs to explain them, so I stated that what I DO understand is that everything after "I'm sorry" that is an explantion is actually a justification and negates the value of any apology and that that is fine if she is not sorry, but then just dont say it unless you mean it. She got really mad and stopped talking to me for about 5 hours.

I have had a couple incidents where I have said something. When we went to get the phone numbers changed, I was asking if I could keep the numbers blocked that are blocked. The guy was saying it costs money, but the lady that did it for me over the phone had said it was free, so I was talking to the guy trying to understand what was going on. Something I said I guess came out "I dont want her to be able to talk to someone." She got upset because its me treating her like a grounded teenager in public, in front of people who dont need to know anything. I tend to agree, and it was not at all what I meant to convey. I apologized in a note, just a straight "Here is what I did, here is why its wrong, you dont deserve that, I am sorry, I will make every effort to not do it again." She was very happy to get this apology and we made up and it was all cool.

I have never had a problem saying, "oh snap, I was wrong... I am sorry, how can I fix it?" I even have done it here on the forums. Its in my signature. I wish she was able to do the same thing. When we met one of the first things she said to me was the second time we talked, "You said you'd email me yesterday." "Im sorry, I forgot, I had this and this and so on." "Look, I dont need excuses. I dont like them, if you did something own up to it and deal with it."

She used to be like that all the time. Is this just fog? She stopped before the A started, before we moved. I dont know where all this justification and excuses ever came from.

We were discussing something else, and I am trying very hard not to lecture, and to listen. So she is telling me what she thinks about something that I disagree with her about, and I listen to the whole thing. Not "let her talk," but actually listen and try to get what she is saying. After she gets done, I ask a few questions to clarify things and put a couple things in my own words and ask if I got it right and check to make sure I understand her. She says "Yes! you get it! See?" I respond saying that I still dont agree with her, and ask if I can offer my opinion (something she put as one of her "I'd like it if's..." for her Conversation). She says sure, but as soon as I start she gets frustrated and says "we arent supposed to keep going if it gets heated, so I dont want to talk about this anymore."

Than we stop... and never go back to it. I dont even remember what it was, and its not that it was trivial or didnt matter, its something that will come up again I am sure, but this method of "dealing" with things by getting upset and shutting down and not staying calm is getting very annoying.

Especially when I get partially understood MB things thrown back in my face, out of context, being used to justify inexcusable behavior.

I have always known, since we first met, that her abilities in managing difficult conversations are lacking at best, but I have never been this bent out of shape about it. Normally, it just flows off my back and I really dont care. I really dont remember them or make it a point to recall what she said that I disagreed with.

Now its like my patience is gone. I thought it was still there, I am still patient with our son, but when she opens her mouth and starts in I just dont seem to have any. I just have the self control that kept me going this whole time holding me back from doing anything stupid.

I like the rules for negotiation, but it just seems like we get stuck once we hit the part where I understand her viewpoint, but dont actually get to the part where she wants to understand my view. So then we dont even get to the part where we brainstorm ideas, nor do we pick a mutually agreeable one. The only time we get through the whole process is when I screw something up like, maybe I tell her I will do something, then forget to do it, and so obviously that is not ok, so we understand eachother because she is mad about it, and I recognize that I shouldnt say I am going to get her some water on the way back if I am not going to make sure I do it. Then I offer ideas for how to fix it, ask her if she has any, and we pick one.

All seems to go great.

But I am not wrong everytime. She might not be wrong either. We just dont agree. But if I dont agree with her, it seems like we get stuck at the "I understand her view" but she isnt interested in understanding mine.

Another thing, we were at Lowe's purchasing something. The card I used got declined because I had moved all the money. She got mad. I asked why she was mad? She said the fact that I had moved the money was rediculous, that she "never would have" done anything to take it. I told her, "There are many things you told me you would never do. You also chose not to come home, left our son with me, and chose to stay out with a liar and a cheat who had just lost his house, job, family, money and friends. How was I to know you wouldnt clean out the account at his suggestion and run off to Mexico? You can say you would never do that, but if you had been me, would you risk our sons next meal on trust in the same situation? What did you expect me to do?" She seemed to realize at that point and said "Well, I guess I am mad at myself." I asked if she would please refrain from taking her anger out on me. She hmmmphed and didnt talk to me for a bit. I said something nice to her later about "attitude is everything, we can move forward or stand still looking back." She thanked me, smiled, and was cheerful afterward.

However, this has happened a couple times, similar stuff, like she found our sons shot record, which used to be in her car, in one of my drawers. She asked what it was doing there. I said I took our sons stuff out of her car as soon as she got back so that if she tried to leave with him, she would have to come back to get his documents and such. I think another one was a comment she made about the bills. She used to handle paying them, but I cut her off of all the accounts, so she said something like, "Since you dont want me doing it anymore..." a few times. I exclaim that I LOVED that she would take care of those things for me, especially while I was deployed, that I dont like doing it, and that I htought she did a fantastic job. She asked what she has done to make me think she will do anything "bad?"

Really? ............ So hard to just stay silent and not explode with graphic and explicit descriptions of what precisely she had done, where, in what position, how long it lasted and so on and so forth. Its like she has some sort of deadline for how long I am "allowed" to not trust her. Less than 3 weeks ago she was having sex with another man in our bed......

Makes me so pissed off.

She sent me a fantastic email one day. She had been reading MB stuff, and sent me this:
"Thank you for having strength, courage, love, and dedication. It's been brought to my attention lately that our marriage means the world to you like it has the past 5 years. I feel the same now. I feel our marriage is my world. I want to consume all of my time to work on strengthening it and to make it feel invinsible again. I'm sorry you felt I was comparing my pain to yours the other day, I was only trying to say that it is the only pain I have to compare it to.... not compare it. I have no idea how much you hurt. I know I dont want to hurt you again. I feel horrible for hurting you. I wish that my love can be a big enough band aid for your heart but I have no idea if it will be. I wish for you to not give up and continue having the strength to get through this rought spot in our life. I want to life forever with you. I do love you."

That was very nice to have, and I keep it on my work email and my phone. There is more stuff, but I just posted the most relevant part, it was all very nice. I keep it and read it occasionally.

Just got this one today:
"Thank you for our beautiful boys. You've given me the most beautiful gift ever and I appreciate it so much. I love being the mother of your children. I promise I will always look out for our childrens well being. You are becomming one of the greatest fathers. I'm so proud of you. I hope you continue to enjoy being a dad. You're amazing."

So basically, I dont know. I still really want this to work, but we have things to fix from even before this whole move started.

I didnt meet most of her needs, she met most of mine, enough to keep me happy, but does not have a very proactive method of solving problems that doesnt include Angry Outbursts and DJs. Obviously these things need to be fixed. I was able to stay happy despite these love busters I think just because I didnt press the issue. My needs were being met ok, and since she didnt actively seek to fix things without using AO's and DJ's, it was easy to just ignore the issues she had, since I was happy anyway.

This is not fair to her, but its also not fair for her to continue acting like this if we expect to have a relationship based on mutual respect and love.

Ok, this was a huge vent. I would really appreciate any feedback.

Stop whining big baby, you are right shes terrible, she's right and you're an idiot, whatever you guys think. Any ideas to better deal with things?
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/14/10 09:19 PM
My wife is a genius, we got our new numbers passed... crises averted.
Posted By: Gdar Re: My thread - 06/14/10 10:00 PM
BT, what really sticks out in my head when I read this was that maybe she does not correlate a connection between you moving money around because you were afraid she would take it all to Mexico, to actually taking it to Mexico. Meaning - you moving money around because of her A is lost on her. She does not see the direct connection. Just a thought.

You AO'd and DJ'd her pretty hard with that argument at Lowe's, IMHO.

I struggle the way your wife does in hard conversations. I also understand in way how you are feeling (my H had an EA, not the same, so not to pretend I totally understand your situation) and that you want her to feel remorseful and take everything you are saying into consideration and you just want her to fix it by doing everything you feel you need her to be doing to make YOU feel safer. I wanted my H to feel worse, apologize not just more, but the way *I* wanted him to, and if it was not good enough of an apology for me, I got upset. He was apologizing to the best of his abilities at the time. Saying you are sorry when you suck at it is HARD. I am the WORST apologizer in the world AND I am the worst at receiving them.

This is all new behavior she has to learn. It is hard to not DJ when it comes naturally. It is really hard to apologize effectively when you it does not come naturally. Hell, talking about anything uncomfortable is just plain painful, sometimes.

Like you said, it has been 3 weeks. You both have more to learn in regards to communicating with each other in a way you can both appreciate. Small steps...
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/14/10 11:24 PM
thank you gdar!

I have a question about AO's (for anyone or gdar).

If I dont get angry, meaning, no change in tone, calm, level, not upset, is it an AO? Even if I am DJ'ing a ton and everything, is it an AO if I am not angry, dont call names, etc?

And a question about DJ's. The decision to move the money, as well as remove her access to all accounts and remove all abilities for her to be able to "run off" with anything was based on a total catastrophic destruction of trust by discovery of the A.

At the point of discovery, every single thing I thought I knew about WW went straight out the window, because every value, belief, and code of ethics she had ever espoused condemned having an affair under any circumstances. Basically she betrayed everything I thought I knew about her by doing this, and many of her friends and family that I talked to during exposure agreed, saying "thats not like her," or "I would never have thought SHE would do that," and so on.

I guess I dont feel like I made a DJ by acting as if there was in fact nothing she was not capable of doing, in light of the fact that she had just proven that was actually doing one of the things she had most vigorously condemned throughout the time I have known her.

If I had NOT taken those precautions, and she HAD cleaned out the accounts etc and run off, then where would my son and I be now?

But, if it is still a DJ, then I guess I am missing something about DJ's.

I guess I think of DJ's as assuming something about the other person that you dont really have any right to assume.

Like, if she taps her fingers, and it annoys me, and I assume she is doing it just to annoy me, when I have never actually told her that it annoys me.

Now, if I told her every day for the last 5 years that tapping her fingers annoys me, we go through an MB Plan to stop an Annoying Habit, and she successfully stops, and then she looks me in the eye and does it again today, then is it still a DJ to assume that she is in fact doing it just to annoy me? (this was just an example)

Gdar, I think you are definately right about the learning to communicate with eachother better. Head down, keep pressing forward.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/15/10 12:39 AM
BT, you are doing just fine. Your wife is in the habit of lovebusting you with angry outbursts, IB and is not used to considering your opinion at all. The concept of POJA is foreign to her. BUT.... it will take time to learn that. Jennifer can teach you.

So, don't despair. Jennifer will probably have you jump to the lessons on lovebusters so you can get that under control.

Don't be impatient, you are doing great!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: My thread - 06/15/10 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
And a question about DJ's. The decision to move the money, as well as remove her access to all accounts and remove all abilities for her to be able to "run off" with anything was based on a total catastrophic destruction of trust by discovery of the A.

At the point of discovery, every single thing I thought I knew about WW went straight out the window, because every value, belief, and code of ethics she had ever espoused condemned having an affair under any circumstances. Basically she betrayed everything I thought I knew about her by doing this, and many of her friends and family that I talked to during exposure agreed, saying "thats not like her," or "I would never have thought SHE would do that," and so on.

I guess I dont feel like I made a DJ by acting as if there was in fact nothing she was not capable of doing, in light of the fact that she had just proven that was actually doing one of the things she had most vigorously condemned throughout the time I have known her.

That wasn't a DJ. You want to be straightforward in a respectful way and you did that.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/15/10 09:54 AM
hmmm

Good call. Jennifer did indeed start us on LBs. Us. Had me on them since the beginning, but got WW on board too now.

Also covered a "feedback" nightly on our ENs and how we are doing meeting them. Start that tomorrow night.

Next week, we are going to go over respectful negotiation and POJA.


The steps to follow when we find ourselves Love Busting are to:

1) Trigger- recognize that LBs happen when we dont get what we want.

2) Symptoms- recognize them. Sweating hands, faster heart rate, breathing, hands starting to tremble.

3) IMPORTANT STEP - PROTECT YOUR SPOUSE - Recognize that when you are in this state you are a dangerous person capable of saying hurtful things. Give yourself time away to calm down to protect your spouse from hurtful behavior. "I need to go to the bathroom, I will be back in 5 mins" - get away from the situation, calm yourself down. Your spouse should recognize, appreciate and respect your efforts to protect them, and allow you to leave and calm down.

4) Think an empathic thought- Think of a reason why they might not be doing what you want, besides just to piss you off. This will often diffuse the anger, because you will begin to see positives. "Spouse isnt refusing to ok this trip just because they knows it will make me angry, they are thinking about money and trying to take care of the family."

5) Look for an "I'd like it if statement..." and make it. Most times, an LB happens because our Taker wants something. Try to figure what it is, and instead of trying to take it with LBs, create an "I'd love it if..." statement.

I'd love it if statements must be POSITIVE, SPECIFIC BEHAVIOR that you would like to see.

NOT AN
Id love it if you wouldnt leave the toilet seat up when you are done.

BETTER
I'd love it if you would put the toilet seat down when you are done.

The first doesnt say what you want. Only what you dont want. It is also a negative statement. Positive specific statements identify exactly what you want in a positive manner that makes it much easier to decide to do it. It OFFERS the choice to your spouse. "This will make me happy if you do it," but it doesnt TELL them to do it. If they should choose to do it, you can rest assured they are doing it because they want to, and not because you coerced them with AO's or DJ's or other LBs.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/17/10 12:24 PM
So I had a really bad dream this morning.

tl:dr - I got home from work, OM was there, threw him out, loud violent confrontation with WW, she admits to sleeping with him again, on our bed. �As I am about to do terrible things to her with my hands, I wake up.

Confused, I don't recognize our bedroom, but I see her, so I wake her by demanding, in a very insistent and VERY threatening tone and body language, "What did you do yesterday?" �She woke up, confused, and stammered non-answers. �I asked I think 4 times total before I realized it had been a dream, she hadn't done anything yesterday, and I turned away, and almost started bawling from the hurt and frustration and rage as the anger started to leave.

She was terrified.

Says she doesn't know what I was going to do with the look I had in my eyes.

Honestly, if she had said she had slept with him yesterday, I don't know what I would have done. �I was very, very angry. �In the dream, its like I acted in all the ways I have WANTED to act, yelling at her, screaming WHY DID YOU DO IT, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU, occasionally pushing her around the house and such. �But right before I woke up, I was about to smash her face. �I think that's why I woke up, to stop myself from doing it, but I don't know.

Anyway, I had to get ready for work, she is scared, would barely talk to me, and I don't know what to do.

On one hand, I don't want her to be scared, I want her to feel safe.

On the other hand, stuff like this doesn't just come from nowhere. �I am hurting inside. �Bad. �This is a symptom. �I love MBs action based approach. �I have been forcing myself to be the loving husband. �I understand that as you develop this into a habit, it becomes "real." �I have not touched her in a remotely violent or threatening manner at all. �However, I also know that I have been shoving this stuff down inside of me for two and a half weeks, and it seems like its going to come out one way or another. �I need to get some of this out of me and in the open.

I think part of it is we didn't do ANYTHING last night as far as MB homework.

We are supposed to be going over our personal LB checklist (individually judging ourselves)
We are supposed to be assessing ourselves on completing our spouses ENs

As part of my H&O need, I had asked her to do a nightly check in with me, addressing 6 things
� � � �-Something good and bad about the day
� � � �-What she did that day
� � � �-What she planned for tomorrow
� � � �-If she had any contact with OM, and reaffirm commitment to me and our marriage
� � � �-Work out any UA time scheduling issues that might have come up
� � � �-Admire something about me
This should take around or slightly less than 20 mins total.
We haven't done this check in once. �I wonder if having her tell me about NC and reaffirm commitment before we go to sleep would help?

Calling Ellie and going to maybe schedule an earlier appointment with Jennifer.

WW is sitting at home terrified, shakes when I touch her.

I am still pissed and hurt about her A. �I WANT to console her make her feel safe, but we DO need to address this too, I think....
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: My thread - 06/17/10 12:35 PM
We're here and listening, BT.

I don't know that I ever had dreams that vivid, at least not that I can recall. The part about wanting to smash her face I remember vividly.

I used the exact same phrase to describe that feeling.

If you are the impulsive type, whatever you do, don't listen to that urge...

Mark
Posted By: not2fun Re: My thread - 06/17/10 01:09 PM
{{{{{BT}}}}},

find a HEALTHY outlet for that rage.....a kickboxing class??! Some boxing lessons......try to channel it into something positive....

And considering you are very early in this process, this event doesn't surprise me.....

As for your W, apologize for your actions......
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/17/10 04:41 PM
BT,

ITA with Mark and Not.

This does not surprise me either, I know how difficult it was for me to control my anger anytime he said anything that upset me, it was like things that typically would not bother me about him did now bother me.

You need to find something to do to get your aggression out and you need to make sure you BOTH do your MB homework and if the 6 things is something you need then revisit it with her, maybe she doesn�t realize how important it is to you.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/18/10 04:52 PM
Ok, did all these things.

1) My friend and I grapple.
2) We talked about the CheckIn thing at night, and she totally is on board with doing that every night.

She seemed a lot better when I got home yesterday.

Big plans this weekend with friends, busy!

Going to pick up "new to me" charcoal grill! YAY!
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/18/10 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok, did all these things.

1) My friend and I grapple.

Did it make you feel any better, get some of your frustration out? twoxfour


Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
2) We talked about the CheckIn thing at night, and she totally is on board with doing that every night.

This is a plan. Did you do this last night? And did it help?

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
She seemed a lot better when I got home yesterday.

Big plans this weekend with friends, busy!

Going to pick up "new to me" charcoal grill! YAY!

Did you apologize to her for being angry with her for no apparent reason (at least to her it was for no apparent reason since at the time she did not know why you were angry) or at least explain to her the reason you were so angry and that you are trying to deal with it without "taking it out on her"?

And once again remember this is a MARATHON, not a SPRINT, you are very early in this yet grin .....
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/18/10 07:57 PM
1) Grappling - yes it helped some, but wrestling with her helps a lot more.

2) Yes we did last night, and I definately noticed a different feeling as I fell asleep, and was actually tired when we layed down instead of feeling so restless.

3) Yes, I apologized for scaring her. I tried to share with her a glimpse of how every day is a constant roller coaster that I hide under a smile. She said she was ready for me to share these things with her, and that she wanted to be there for me.

That was very nice to hear.

Today she hit "answer" on an unkown number before she saw it was an unkown number. It was JC Penney, our curtains are in.
She came running to tell me and called the number back and handed me the phone, apolozing for messing up.

+1 trust point I guess. No idea how many more to go, but maybe, just maybe, I can believe maybe we can get there someday.

Partying tonight with 4 other friends I grew up with who are visiting. I am DD cuz I dont really drink anymore anyway, and definately dont want to give up any self control right now.


Mark! You mentioned you dont recall any dreams "that" vivid, well...
let me say it has nothing to do with imagination. I spent a year and a half in Fallujah, Iraq. During both pushes into the city, when the Marines cleaned it out in Nov'04.

It all just blends together. These last couple weeks, time over there. It all sucked.

Most of the time I dont remember my dreams and that makes it a lot easier to have a really good day.
Posted By: YEG Re: My thread - 06/19/10 09:28 PM
Quote
Mark! You mentioned you dont recall any dreams "that" vivid, well...
let me say it has nothing to do with imagination. I spent a year and a half in Fallujah, Iraq. During both pushes into the city, when the Marines cleaned it out in Nov'04.

It all just blends together. These last couple weeks, time over there. It all sucked.

Most of the time I dont remember my dreams and that makes it a lot easier to have a really good da

I feel your pain.

I havent been on a submarine in 9 years but I still hve nightmares im stuck in a torpedo tube or imback on the boat. WW has nightmares every night about her oldjob she got fired from.
Posted By: DisplayName Re: My thread - 06/20/10 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
So I had a really bad dream this morning.

tl:dr - I got home from work, OM was there, threw him out, loud violent confrontation with WW, she admits to sleeping with him again, on our bed. �As I am about to do terrible things to her with my hands, I wake up.

Confused, I don't recognize our bedroom, but I see her, so I wake her by demanding, in a very insistent and VERY threatening tone and body language, "What did you do yesterday?" �She woke up, confused, and stammered non-answers. �I asked I think 4 times total before I realized it had been a dream, she hadn't done anything yesterday, and I turned away, and almost started bawling from the hurt and frustration and rage as the anger started to leave.

She was terrified.

Says she doesn't know what I was going to do with the look I had in my eyes.

Honestly, if she had said she had slept with him yesterday, I don't know what I would have done. �I was very, very angry. �In the dream, its like I acted in all the ways I have WANTED to act, yelling at her, screaming WHY DID YOU DO IT, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU, occasionally pushing her around the house and such. �But right before I woke up, I was about to smash her face. �I think that's why I woke up, to stop myself from doing it, but I don't know.

Anyway, I had to get ready for work, she is scared, would barely talk to me, and I don't know what to do.

On one hand, I don't want her to be scared, I want her to feel safe.

On the other hand, stuff like this doesn't just come from nowhere. �I am hurting inside. �Bad. �This is a symptom. �I love MBs action based approach. �I have been forcing myself to be the loving husband. �I understand that as you develop this into a habit, it becomes "real." �I have not touched her in a remotely violent or threatening manner at all. �However, I also know that I have been shoving this stuff down inside of me for two and a half weeks, and it seems like its going to come out one way or another. �I need to get some of this out of me and in the open.

I think part of it is we didn't do ANYTHING last night as far as MB homework.

We are supposed to be going over our personal LB checklist (individually judging ourselves)
We are supposed to be assessing ourselves on completing our spouses ENs

As part of my H&O need, I had asked her to do a nightly check in with me, addressing 6 things
� � � �-Something good and bad about the day
� � � �-What she did that day
� � � �-What she planned for tomorrow
� � � �-If she had any contact with OM, and reaffirm commitment to me and our marriage
� � � �-Work out any UA time scheduling issues that might have come up
� � � �-Admire something about me
This should take around or slightly less than 20 mins total.
We haven't done this check in once. �I wonder if having her tell me about NC and reaffirm commitment before we go to sleep would help?

Calling Ellie and going to maybe schedule an earlier appointment with Jennifer.

WW is sitting at home terrified, shakes when I touch her.

I am still pissed and hurt about her A. �I WANT to console her make her feel safe, but we DO need to address this too, I think....

BT, this is my first post on your thread, and let me say i am SO sorry that you find yourself in this situation.

listen, infidelity brings out depths of rage in betrayed spouses that are very nearly primal. please don't feel guilty or alone or wonder whether you're a mean man at heart. the fact that a) you told us about your dream, and b) that you're taking solid steps to counteract your worries--these tell me that you're an extremely kind, patient, and forgiving husband who's on the road to rebuilding your marriage.

i remember my husband--a kind, generous, cultured, eloquent, educated, and honorable man, who's never even raised his VOICE to me, let alone a hand--i remember him sitting on the patio smiling sympathetically, handgun in arm's reach, asking mildly, "which one one us should die, do you think? you, me, or him? do i need to choose for you?"

i'm sorry you scared her--but it sounds like YOU'RE sorry you scared her, and that you scared yourself a fair amount, too. it goes without saying that you're not going to act on your impulses. i'm familiar with being subject in dreams to thoughts i would never consciously entertain, let alone act on.

trust yourself, and your rational, well-thought-out Plan A. you're not the type to hurt your wife.

BT, it takes a good deal of self-awareness and pragmatism to translate such a scary dream into a practical and productive plan of action. you've done so admirably, and i congratulate you, sir. i'll be following your thread.

best wishes and good evening.
Posted By: BTinTrouble Re: My thread - 06/21/10 07:57 PM
Thank you so much RN for your post. I clicked on you and looked though your posts and just LOVED your thread on weird sex. It had never occurred to me to ask about that, but I loved the responses.

Thank you all for all the help and support.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: My thread - 06/22/10 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
1) Grappling - yes it helped some, but wrestling with her helps a lot more.

Good i am glad the grappling helped. As far as wrestling with her i am sure you can accomplish that without hurting her. It could be some UA time and it could possibly lead elsewhere blush ......

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble