Hi everyone... I recently (less than a month ago) found this site.

Obviously something is going on, and obviously as most everyone here has probably experianced, its very painful and scary and I am going to spill it here in the hopes that it helps me come to grips with some of it and stay focused. Perhaps selfishly, I am also hoping for some encouragement or something to help me feel better about all of this. Reading others success stories has helped a lot already.

Just prior to finding this site, I also recently (less than a month ago, go figure) was told by my wife that she was going to leave me. She isnt ready to actually move out, but seems to have completely detached from me emotionally. We have a 15 month old son and just finished a huge transition period where we moved, I left the military, started a new job, and we spent about 4 months in there (Dec - Mar) living in a friends house with 5 adults and our child until we got our house. Very cramped and no privacy. I have known our relationship was under a lot of stress and crumbling for about 6 months (just before we moved) and back than she had said if things dont get better she would leave and agreed to go to counseling. However, she said 2 years for things to get better and since than has given other time tables (none less than 6 months, once she said 3 years) so this whole "I am done now, dont bother trying to win me back its over its too late" thing has been like a JDAM dropped on a bunker by a stealth bomber: I had no idea it was coming. The signs I did see I just thought were a result of the stress of our temporary living situation and that we could really get to fixing things once we got into our new house. Now I have the house she picked it out in the location she wanted and she says she plans to leave.

All this is very scary and frightening to me.

I hesitate to talk to my friends and family for advice or anything because I dont want us to make it through this and then they beome a part of it.

Issues we have.

Me: I havent been a very good husband in many ways. We have been married 5 years this month, and I have spent at least the last 6 years avoiding dealing with various emotional things relating to past deployments as well as our first sons death (premature baby, 3 years ago). I avoided it by engaging in activities like games and books that would occupy my mind. Shutting out these things also shut me off from my wife and our son. I, for all intents, pretty much ignored them.

I feel ashamed and disappointed in myself for this.

I also can go through the Love Busters and say I have done every single one, most of them habitually. Independant Behavior is a huge one. I know I have Annoying Habits, and Angry Outbursts maybe too, though I think her and I would probably have differing opinions on that one. Disrepectful Behavior in the ways I have ignored her opinions and thoughts on stuff and continued doing my thing and not being completely open. I havent lied, but I havent been the open book of complete honesty telling her everything she deserved to know.

About 6 months ago a few things started to click for me and I slowly began "putting myself" back together. I started trying to look at the things I was doing and stop just existing on autopilot. The transition made this harder but still, I started noticing the things I was doing or not doing. About a month and a half ago I completely quit playing games and reading recreational books, especially while my son was awake or my wife was doing something that I could with her. I started looking up and researching things about communicating and started trying to make a better effort to listen to her, and pay attention to and be involved with her and my son. It was hard living in that house with everyone because I never felt like we could talk.

Now we have our house. She generally has a look on her face of disgust as soon as our son is asleep. However, we have occasionally had some good conversations. They dont end well, but a lot of things have come out that neither of us had any idea were even issues, especially me. I found out a bunch of habits I have that annoy her that I have had since we met that I NEVER KNEW annoyed her. She had never mentioned it. Not really big things either, nothing I would have an issue with changing had I known.

During the day, she acts happy around our son, but we dont touch, and she mostly doesnt talk to me unless its a specific request of some sort like "get a bottle" or "will you change this diaper?"

As soon as our bed and couch got here, she said she didnt want to sleep near me and asked if she would have to go to the couch. I said I want her to be happy and comfortable and that I would go sleep on the couch.

One of my very annoying habits is the way I discuss and debate things. I am a very analytical person, with very terrible listening things. These are traits I have recently become aware of and am starting to work on them. Previously I would listen to someone with my brain thinking of ways they were wrong, or ways to question them to "prove" them wrong or show that they dont make sense. Obviously this is a very counterproductive way to discuss things like emotional needs and feelings. I have been making a special effort to STOP this line of thinking, and try to LISTEN to what people (not just her) are saying and trying to understand them. Also, not offering my thoughts without being asked.

I have told her all of these things and that I was working on things about myself, but one of the things she has said is that "I dont want you to change for me, you are who you are and you deserve to have that." I have explained to her that its not just for her, even if she was gone tomorrow, they are still things I need to fix and improve just to be a decent person and a better father.

I spent that first month after she said she planned to leave just wallowing in guilt and shame over my behavior the last 5 years, as well as frustration and fear because I didnt (and still dont) feel like I have any control over anything and I dont want to lose her.

Her: However, a new line has popped up as I think about this and review information on this site and as I read His Needs Her Needs.

My wife is a very giving person. She is generous and kind to people she cares about. However, she will give to the point of accepting unhappiness for herself. Things like she doesnt like the way I make her sandwiches, ever since we met, but I just found that out a week ago because she had never bothered to tell me because she "didnt want to hurt my feelings." This has been a common thing in the few discussions we have had. She has things she is hurt about or upset with, or just sick of, but many of them are things I had no idea were a problem.

So now I am feeling hurt and betrayed. She said she would give me a chance to fix the things in myself, but then up and just said she was leaving. She also said she would give it a chance, but has never told me the things she needed, or the things I did that she didnt like and would prefer to be different. Its like "sure if you get to the finish line we can stay together, but I'm not telling you where the finish line is." Now she has even removed the finish line. She told me to stop doing her laundry as it makes her feel uncomfortable. She mentioned that one of her major issues was that she didnt feel appreciated, and I sure did do a lousy job of showing my appreciation so I starting trying to do things to show it. I started leaving little notes under her door, or on her TV or in her Kitchen telling her specific things she did that day that I appreciated and how much they meant to me. She told me to stop leaving notes, said they make her feel uncomfortable and refused to explain why they made her feel that way. She has threatened to "leave faster" if I make her stay uncomfortable.

Now I sort of walk on egg shells because I dont want to piss her off and drive her away, but we need to talk.

Good news, she has said she wants to be friends and make this amicable. She says we have a child to raise and have to do it together even though we wont be married. To me this is at least something. I feel like to do this we will have to resolve many of our issues anyway. Get rid of the resentment and anger. She has agreed to go to counseling for this, though she adamantly states that its not going to change her mind about leaving.

All in all, I am at this moment, feeling very frustrated hurt and scared. I dont like at all that she has stated that she will never be able to be happy with me. I firmly believe this to be an "unwilling" statement and NOT an inability. I think she is CHOOSING to continue this. She has said that she thinks it would be better for our son to be raised by us seperately and happy, rather than together in a miserable house. She says this without even considering that we could be happy.

I am very unhappy with the way she is making a point to disengage from me. Like not letting me cook her a meal or do her laundry and so on. She says she didnt feel appreciated and that I didnt do things to show her how important she is to me, but now that I try to do them, she tells me to stop. I feel like she is struggling willingly to keep this rift, and I cant understand why she should fight so hard for it. She says she believes there is someone out there that could make her happy. I believe there are MANY people who could make her happy, but none of them is going to be the father of her 2 children or have been a part of the experiances we have survived already. No one has the potential to understand her and make her as happy as I COULD. And I hate to say "stay together for the kids" but really, at least give it a TRY for the kids. I cant believe she has said she has made up her mind and will not change it.

We were very happy once.

Both of our parents divorced when we were very young. Neither of us has seen an example of how a relationship should be. We went through the 5 years of our marriage stumbling blind. We never talked to anyone, never learned how to talk to eachother, never learned our own needs or what was making us unhappy, and never communicated these things to eachother. I feel like neither of us has really "tried" yet on this marriage. She can say she gave so much, but really, I think deep down, it was motivated by a fear. She didnt tell me the things that she didnt like or that upset her because she didnt want to rock the boat. Thats great and all, its something we can work on, but she says things like "I did try, and now I cant anymore."

I dont feel like we ever tried. I am glad we are going to counseling on May 10th, but I am very anxious we are going to get one of those "Yep you need a divorce" types. I have started gathering phone numbers and calling others in the area and asking them what they think about Doc Harley's approach (I found a post with that as a tip to finding a "good" counselor).

I still feel ashamed of myself for my previous behavior, and am still motivated to make changes in myself and my life. I am also hurt and frustrated with her for her apparent unwillingness to take any responsibility or to put forth any effort, even a try for the sake of our child.

I am hoping to get some encouragement and maybe information or tips from people with suggestions on how I can continue to stay positive and make positive and effective changes.

I have to go to bed now, we have a walk for March of Dimes tomorrow (well, today now) that we do every year in remembrance of our first son. I am hoping it can be a positive experiance for us together as a family.

Have you done any snooping to determine if she believes this because he's already in the picture? It's much more likely that she is just now telling you all the things you've done to annoy her all these years because she is re-writing your marital history to justify her affair. Get to snooping. There are some great snooping pointers on the Surviving an Affair board.

I hope she is not having an affair, but this is something that you ought to rule out. Don't ask her if she is. Snoop.

You can do everything right and still fail if there is an OP (other person) in the picture.

Hi BT: Sorry you have to be here. You are doing the right things, taking the right steps as far as realizing you have many weeds to pull on your side of the fence.

While it's possible your wife has met, or is thinking of meeting, or is inappropriately involved with, someone else, it's also very possible that she could have been unhappy for a long time, said nothing and reached the "I'm done" stage that many giving women reach before they announce anything. It's tougher to reconcile and rebuild the marriage, but it's still possible.

Definitely you should rule out an affair but I wouldn't wait to start other parts of this program in the meantime.

IMO, the best thing you could do is to call Steve Harley and talk to him. He's great at helping to encourage reluctant spouses into counseling with him and he's awesome at reaching them once they do. And the sticky stuff...her lovebusters, etc...Steve can play the middleman there and deliver the bad news while the two of you work on building ENs and making love bank deposits. It's well worth the money.

She hasn't left yet, and she seems hesitant, given the different time frames. I would take that as a good sign.

I also would advise though, that you not make it any easier for her to dissolve the marriage. You don't have to be an a$$ about it, but it's YOUR bed too, you should be sleeping in it. Your answer to her desire for a divorce should be "I don't do divorce, I do marriage and I want to do marriage with you." and then tell her how you want to counsel w/ the Harleys.

Good luck.

In your situation I would do my best to show her and to discuss the benefits of staying under the same roof while you get counseling.

Then I would get on the phone and make a phone appointment with Dr. Harley so that you two (in separate conversations) can discuss your marriage and what to do. Traditional marriage counseling does not have a high success rate. Your best avenue is to work through the Marriage Builders concepts.

Your wife doesn't like what you're doing because it puts her in conflict and makes her second guess what she's doing. Consistency and filling the emotional needs she will allow are important.

Being military put your marriage at a distinct disadvantage. Acknowledge that to her and tell her you want to focus on her and the marriage and get everything back on track, that you don't want to be the kind of husband (or person) you were and need her help and patience.

Weekends are slow here. Things should pick up come Monday.

Try to spend some undivided attention with her daily, making her smile or laugh without talking about the marriage. Remember what you did before you got married to make each other happy. Do those things if possible. Undivided attention is extremely important and will make it difficult for her to stay in withdrawal.

Editing to say that Dr. H will start you on a real, viable course of action to get things back on track or at least optimize your chances. I originally posted about questionnaires. You may want to wait to talk to Dr. H before doing those. If you can't afford counseling with Dr. H., then come back and someone here will try to help you.

It's important to note that we are your peers here, not professionals.

Thank you guys. We just finished our annual family March of Dimes walk we do in honor of our first son who died.

As for the affair, it almost cannot be a physical affair since we just moved and she knows NO ONE down here. I also dont think it is and have kinda done a little bit of snooping, though not on purpose and havent seen any signs.

She has agreed still to go to counseling, and we have an appointment with one on 10 May, but I am looking for one in our area that follows MB type Marriage Coaching. I am considering just doing the phone one with Doc Harley's.

She says she wants to be friends and do this amicably, but she is done. I have tried to discuss why we should really give it a try, but she says she did and is done. Me telling her what she should do is the last thing she wants to hear, except maybe me telling her she is wrong.

The walk went ok, we met a lady and we all shared some life experiances and the lady made some comments about how we have gone through so much together and was amazed that we lasted through it despite being in the military and deployments and such.


I have considered this, and it kinda inspires me to keep going with my personal things.


A couple suggestions like this. Ok, I will try to think about how to do this. It is SO HARD to not talk about the "us." Through all this I have discovered that one of my ENs is Communication, which was weird since its a woman one supposedly, but I used to tell her EVERYTHING, and now I feel like she doesnt want to hear it anymore and I would only push her away.

Thats the same thing with the "its my bed too" thing. I am having trouble determining the line where I dont want to piss her off and make her leave right now, but I dont want to be the rug either. She was being very rude the other day and I stopped and calmly said, "I do not appreciate the way you are talking to me. You wouldnt act like this to a stranger, please at least be considerate." She had a mini 25 second blow up, but I remained calm, walked away after closing the conversation, and about 10 minutes later she began to at least maintain a base level of civility and politeness.

I dont know. I am very frustrated and almost desperate. She is looking for jobs and apartments online and making plans for leaving and asking if she can have the bed or this or that. I have so far refrained from talking about those things, saying that I am not comfortable having those discussions until we resolve some of the resentment and trust issues between us and have a method of communicating without either of us blowing up.

I need to find us help fast.

I read the "Marraige Coach" thing and feel thats what we really need.

The only people she really talks to now are 3-5 friends she has, her own age, who all have children out of wedlock and detest the fathers, and live accross the country from us so dont really see anything about what is really happening besides talking to her. I dont think she shares all the details with them, but she talks about stuff and gets their veiwpoints on things.

Not exactly an inspirational group.

Right now, she is the veritable definition of withdrawal. It makes me sick that I didnt see this much earlier and let it get to this point, even though I have realized she shares some blame for not saying anything. I still feel like I should have noticed or something.

If I were in your situation, I'd get on the phone with Dr. H ASAP. With your W if at all possible, without her if that's the only way you can do it. It's very difficult to find MB MC's IRL. She's going to need to hear a lot of really hard evidence that you are really changing and "proof" from professionals that it's going to stick to make her want to consider staying if she's already out the door in her head.

I am planning to do the questionnaires best I can by myself, in the hopes that I learn about myself, and maybe we can use them in the future.

Is there a list or something of Marriage Coaches who use MB methods and where to find them so I could find one in our area?

This is a common delusion:

No one can be happy in the long term without taking responsibility for what they need to do do make themselves happy.

2. Your wife's "friends" are straight out of what Dr. Harley writes about, those who "support" her by encouraging her to behave independently, so she can "be happy".

3. Military problems are unique. Have you posted over in the new Military forum as well as here?

4. Maybe your wife would fill out the questionnaires if she thought it was something that might be useful to her future happiness. Although right now she might think that means divorced, filling out the ENQ and LBQ might get her to read HNHN and then get her to a phone counseling session.

She initially said she would read HNHN when I was done, but when I finished it said "I have too little free time to waste on that."

I have also tried suggesting we work things out at least to the point so that we can learn what went wrong and help us in the future regardless of where we are as "us" at that time.

I have also tried to tell her ever since we got married that no one can MAKE her happy. She chooses to be happy. If something is preventing her from being happy, than she has to say something to let that person know, or she cannot expect anything to change. Once she tells them, then and ONLY then does the onus fall on them to decide whether her happiness is important enough for them to make the change. I approached her with the ENQ and LBQ's with the reasoning that we would learn alot about ourselves and eachother, but she said no. She says she doesnt feel she has to tell me what her needs are anymore, since she is done.

I have been on the military forum, but I am no longer in the military, so I believe whatever additional damage resulted from that seperation, it is past now and I dont think we really have the excuse of being "prior" military spouses to explain our hardships. At this point, the past is past and we must decide how we will respond to it, put it to rest, and move forward. In this respect we are like any couple on the rocks. How we got there might be different but how and if we get back on track wont be much different. The personal issues I had leftover from the military are pretty much resolved at this point, I think, though they certainly wreaked havoc during the long period that I tried to ignore them and act like everything was fine.

I havent read what you referred to about her "friends." Would be neat to find that. In addition, her father, a rather sensible fellow who I dont KNOW would tell her to stay with me, but who I do believe would tell her what he thought was best is also currently out a phone and internet for the last 3 months, so one of her only voices of reason she has ever turned to to talk things over with is gone too... hooray.

I dont want this to seem like I didnt hurt her. Neither of us cheated on the other or anything, but I certainly neglected my wife. I copy pasted Doc Harley's article "why women leave men" and emailed to her and a bunch of people and she read the first part explaining the womans reaction and today told me that it perfectly summed her feeling up. Ironically, she said she stopped reading after that because what it was saying about the guy's attitude pissed her off and she thought it was nonsense, so not only did she not read that, but she missed the conclusion of the article which was the biggest point made to me, that anything can be fixed and divorce is not the answer for anyone, including the children. I dont understand how she can recognize that Doc is so perfectly correct about the woman's feelings, but then can so quickly decide he doesnt know what he's talking about as far as the man is concerned. To me, the fact that he got the woman spot on would make me question MY viewpoints if I disagreed on the other parts. I just dont get it.

After our walk for March of Dimes today, we went to one of her friends house for a gathering of some sort. It went fine, I took care of our son and the husband and I entertained eachother and the kids while about 8 women had a merry old time discussing and buying candles from our hostess.

On the way home she brought up counseling, asking what the point was. I told her (H is husband, me, W is wife, her):

H: Worst case scenario for me, counseling helps us resolve enough of our resentment and trust issues so that we can have a functional relationship to allow communication and raising our son together, even if we are apart.

W: We dont need that, I dont want a relationship with you. I will do what I think is best for my son, and you can always be his father but I dont want him to be like you.

H: Well then dont you think it would be good if we are able to talk about those things and come to an agreement that we both enthusiastically support?

W: Well, I am not going to change my mind, I guess all I want is a happy ending and to out of my relationship with you. I dont love you at all anymore. I have a tiny bit just because you gave me my son, but you hurt me over and over and I am sick of, and am done. I dont mean to be mean or to hurt you, I am just being honest.

H: I am not hurt nor do I think you are mean when you are honest. I respect that you have your own thoughts and feelings. I appreciate that you share them with me. Dont you think that if we had always done a better job sharing our thoughts and feelings that we wouldnt be in this position.

W: I only am honest with you because I dont care about your feelings. I dont care about you anymore, I am not like this with people I like.

H: (short silence)

W: Sometimes I think it would have been better if you had just cheated on me because then it would be just one incident instead of all those times you hurt me and made me feel alone.

H: Well, I dont think thats a fair statement, because affairs dont just happen on their own. An affair would just be a cherry on top of the sundae we already have.

W: You dont know that, you havent had an affair.

H: I have read a lot of stories of people who have though, and they all agree on that, affairs dont just happen.

W: Well its not the same, it wasnt our same situation. So you dont know.

H: Ok, you are right, its not our same situation, so I dont KNOW, but you dont know either so I dont think its fair to me or you to wish that one of us had had an affair.

W: Whatever. I dont care what you read or what changes you are making, I am done. I have made up my mind. I deserve better than you.

H: You deserve better than what I have been.

W: I deserve someone who I dont have to work to be happy with. I deserve someone I can just be happy with and not have to be miserable for 5 years.

H: I truly want you to be happy, but I hope that you dont really believe that it just happens, it takes work to have a successful relationship. I know there are other people out there you could be happy with, but I have been thinking a lot. Everytime you tell me about something I think about it for days. I compare it to what I remember, and what I am learning and try to understand what went wrong. I have noticed that most of things you have mentioned that you dont like about me or the way I did things are what are called Traits. Traits are like "you are annoying" or "you are a bad father." You cant really change traits, but you can identify the Habits, the what do I do that makes me annoying or a bad father.

W: (interupt) I dont want to have to sit here and waste my time telling you all those things.

H: I know, you have said you dont want to talk to me about those so I respect your thoughts and opinions and wishes and I dont ask you. It would help a lot if you could tell me what habits they are but I wont ask. Instead, I think and try to identify them to myself by asking "what was I doing when she said I was being annoying." The point of this is that Traits you cant really change but the habits you can. So I believe that eventually, with a little time, I could be all these things you want me to be, because ultimately, they are all just various habits, some to break, some to make. So earlier when you would say "I COULD never be happy with you," I could not agree with you or accept it as an absolute truth, since the things that would make you happy are habits I could change. Now you have said that you dont want to wait and you dont want to have someone that has ever made you unhappy. That is your choice, a decision you make that I have to accept.

W: I dont get your point. I know I am not going to wait for you fix all these things, even if you succeed. I dont want to be hurt by you anymore, and I deserve to be happy.

At this point, our son woke up in the back seat, but what I would have said was that many other people could make her happy, but none of them have 2 children with her, and went through the things that we went through together. I could, over time developing habits, make her just as happy as anyone else out there could, but no one else has those previous bonds with her that we have together. I am hoping this can come out in counseling.

She has always said that she is very much about "Marraige is forever" and things along this line. She has scoffed at others getting divorces saying they are taking the easy way out. Now she laughs when someone says "I want to spend forever with him" and she responds, "no one lasts forever honey," as if each of us doesnt have a set of Grandparents who remained married until one of them died.

I understand that her love bank account of me is in the red. I understand many of the things I did to put it there. However, I dont understand her unwillingness to try to make it better. I dont accept it when she says "I cant try." I dont accept it when she tries to tell me that its MOSTLY my fault if she leaves. Honestly, I cant yet bring myself to accept ANY of the blame if she does in fact leave. I am trying. I have not given up. Her being done is not a state of being that she cant control, its a personal choice. To me its a selfish choice, since it hurts our son.

I really hope we can work this out. She sounds like she will still go to counseling. I think I will call Doc Harley's counseling and see if I can arrange something before the 10th. I know I need a LOT of help to be able to learn to be more empathic and learn her needs and learn to break LB habits, but I think first we (her and I) need her to give a crap and be engaged. It is especially frustrating, since she previously told me, about 5 months ago, that she would be committed to going to counseling and trying to work things out once we "got settled in" down here. We just got settled in and she out of nowhere decided "Nope, I'm done."

Reading Doc Harley's article about Marriage COACHING, getting the person in withdrawel to do what they dont want to do, seems just what we need.

Ok, I feel like I am doing something wrong here...

I am becoming frustrated with her for what seems to me to be her UNWILLINGNESS to try to make this work, which I attribute to selfishness since it is for her only, and hurts our son. I dont count my pain since that is not part of her concern right now, but the rest stands.

However, if I really thought she was that kind of person I wouldnt even want to stay. Also, I dont believe she is that kind of person.

I suppose she could be confused and just doesnt get that she is being selfish, but then I would be assuming that I am right and I need to fix her.

So I need to figure out where she is coming from so that the things she says make sense to her. So far I cant create a reality where they might make sense to me, but maybe I am missing something.

Any thoughts or ideas?

I am sorry your in this situation. I was in similar shoes for a long time. It wasnt until i descided to go to MC on my own that really got my wife seeing how serious i was to making our marraige work.

I would not worry too much at this point .. she is going to be resentful and try to dismiss your efforts becasue she is confused. Just give her space to watch you make your changes and focus on you and your son. She will see the changes eventually. ITs only been a few days ... dont let her withdrawn attitude drag you down. Realy keep pouring on the effort. Meet all her emotional needs .. if you know what they are, fill out the questionairs. If she is willing to work on the marriage. Tell her that taking on teh basics here and sticking to them is far cheaper than an MC. But do the MC because maybe she needs to see your serious about what it is you say your going to do.

I dont have much advice at this time other than what i said above. Give her space to recoup ... tell her how she means the world to you and your son, and then show it by following the basics here.

YOu can do it ... just stay focused ... and come back here for support.

Edit : just to add that UA time is very important ... but try to keep it light and relaxing and not bring up the marriage difficulties too much. That will help bring her out of withdrawl.

MNG, thanks for the words.

It hasnt really been a few days. Its been a few months. I completely quit playing video games and recreational reading about 1.5 months ago. I have been using the time to try to fufill needs and create / break habits.

I think you are definately right about the time part. Its going to take time to earn the trust. Also, the UA is a huge problem right now. She actively avoids being around me. I get home, eat what she has made if she makes something, and then as soon as I "have" the kid for bedtime routine, she takes off till about 9pm to go be alone. This kinda irritates me because I know being a mom is hard work, but I also work, and I dont get to run off for a few hours for "me time." I am trying not to "rock the boat" at this time, so I just vent it here. However, even when we do get to a conversation, I have a lot of things to unlearn and fix and I have occasionally regressed and made the conversations a negative experiance. I am getting better at this. We had about 1.5 hours of positive interaction time today, and about 1 hour of talking about marriage stuff that stayed at least neutral where neither of us appeared upset.

The hard part is maintaining this positive outlook.

I know all these changes are good for me to make even if she does leave, but she has been my reason for everything for over half of my adult life...

This song really said it and has really touched a nerve for me...

Breakeven by The Script, you can hear it on Youtube

I'm still alive but I'm barely breathing,
Just prayed to a god that I don't believe in, (my comment: Amen...)
'Coz I got time while she got freedom,
'Coz when a heart breaks
no it don't break even.

Her best days will be some of my worst,
She finally met a man that's gonna put her first,
While I'm wide awake, she's no trouble sleeping,
'Coz when a heart breaks
no it don't break even, even no.

What am I supposed to do when the best part of me was always you
What am I supposed to say when I'm all choked up and you're ok
I'm falling to pieces
I'm falling to pieces

They say bad things happen for a reason
But no wise words gonna stop the bleeding
'Coz she's moved on while I'm still grieving
And when a heart breaks
no it don't break even, even no.

What am I gonna do when the best part of me was always you
What am I supposed to say when I'm all choked up and you're ok
I'm falling to pieces, yeah
I'm falling to pieces, yeah
I'm falling to pieces
(One still in love
while the other one's leaving)
I'm falling to pieces,
(Cuz when a heart breaks
no it don't break even)

You got his heart and my heart and none of the pain,
You took your suitcase, I took the blame.
Now I'm tryna make sense of what little remains, oh.
'Coz you left me with no love, with no love to my name.

I'm still alive but I'm barely breathing,
Just prayed to a god that I don't believe in,
'Coz I got time while she got freedom,
'Coz when a heart breaks
no it don't break, no it don't
break, no it don't break even no.

What am I gonna do when the best part of me was always you
What am I supposed to say when I'm all choked up and you're ok
I'm falling to pieces, yeah
I'm falling to pieces, yeah
I'm falling to pieces,
(One still in love
while the other one's leaving)
I'm falling to pieces,
(Cuz when a heart breaks
no it don't break even)

Oh, it don't break even, no
Oh, it don't break even, no
Oh, It don't break even, no

Looking for any advice on things I might be missing or things I could be doing better.

Here is what I am working on right now:

EMOTIONAL NEEDS (*** - things I am specifically working on or am able to work on)

Affection - I cannot really work on this in many ways since she has told me specifically to not touch her or show affection. I have tried a few things, like made her a list of formatted songs she liked so she could listen to them on her phone. She has also allowed me to give her a massage a few times. I only recently watched a couple instructional videos and started reading the massage book she bought me a while ago, but a few simple techniques have at least enabled me to be able to give a 45-60 minute massage whereas before poor body mechanics was leaving me with cramped fingers and sore wrists in about 15 mins.

Sexual Fufillment - Completely not allowed to even attempt to fulfill this one. Says she is disgusted by me, even though she still thinks physically I am very attractive.

***Conversation - I realize now that the reason we stopped doing this was due to 1) My poor listening skills and 2) Tendancy to "debate" things and basically go till I am right and "win" or am proven wrong. Since she doesnt really like this sort of communication and also doesnt like to tell me something makes her unhappy, she just began to avoid communication. Since she didnt really engage when I would try talk at her some more, we werent really conversing. Now I am actively practicing my listening skills, paraphrasing, being quiet and asking open ended questions to ensure I understand, and asking her what she thinks. Also working harder to avoid DJ's and just let her say what she thinks and simply accept it as the truth for her and work with it.

***Recreational Companionship - We sort of get this because we take our son out for things. I try to talk to her while we are out and try to stay pleasant as well as try to make the activities fun. She does not want to excercise with me or generally acompany me on anything at this point.

***Honesty and Openness - I am not having a problem with honesty part, but the openness part I am not sure about. I feel like if I told her some things I think and feel (like that I think she is being incredibly selfish by choosing to end our marraige rather than give it a serious try) then she would leave. I guess this shows a lack of faith in her and a lack of respect for her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner, but I guess I DONT respect her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner. I dont know how to fix this, I will need to work on this one somehow. Looking for ideas.

Physical Attractiveness - She has said that she still thinks I am very attractive, just that she isnt attracted to me because of her "hate and resentment." Still, I have restarted my workout regimen, going at it for almost 3 weeks now and it is showing results already.

Financial Support - I think this one is fine in that I make enough for us at this time. She has a nicer house than she expected to have (even though she wants to leave it).

***Domestic Support - Historically I have been really bad about this. Since then I have made it a point to do every dish I see laying around, check the dishwasher for clean dishes to put away, wipe things down, clean our sons things, pick up toys and things, sweep, help out whenever she is doing something, I make sure I am helping or doing something else productive. She has told me specifically NOT to do her laundry and passively avoids allowing me to make her a meal as much as possible.

***Family Commitment - I quit playing video games and reading recreational books, as well as quit most activities other than dealing with my son during the time I am home and he is awake. I am doing a lot of personal "self help" stuff to improve myself as a person (and therefore a father) as well as reading the "Parenting" magazines we get. I have asked her opinion on things to do with our son for development, asked her without prompting how doctors visits etc go, and taken a lot more effort to properly exercise and work on training our dog (Siberian Husky)

***Admiration - She has stated that she hasnt ever felt appreciated for what she does. I have been making a point to say "Thank you" for everything. I also have been making a point of identifying when I feel proud of something she does, and being sure to tell her. "I am so proud of the work you did and all effort you made to raise that money for the March of Dimes."


LOVE BUSTERS

Selfish Demands - I dont think I have had a problem with this. I cannot recall a time that I have told her "do this because I want it, I dont care if you dont want it." This perception may be due to a misunderstanding on what Selfish Demands are. I believe I am much more guilty of Independant Behavior, rather than selfish demands. I dont demand that she do something, I just do what I want...

Disrespectful Judgements - I am sure I am guilty of this one, in fact, I am confused about a specific thing a couple posts up, in regards to me thinking she is being selfish and unreasonable. I really need help with this one. I just know there are probably DJ's clouding my judgement and filtering my perceptions that I am not even aware of. To all of you that are bothering to read my walls of text I thank you so much and PLEASE let me know if you spot anything.

Angry Outbursts - I am guilty of this at times. I would say the vast majority of the time she "starts it" but I know that that doesnt make it ok for me to do it, and that she probably has the opposite perception, and we are probably both wrong. Regardless, I have been making an even more supreme effort to remain calm and rational at all times. I have a tendancy to be calm and rational anyway, to the point that it can annoy people that tend to get emotional, but once I start to feel frustrated or a lack of control I sometimes get angry. I have recently noticed this and begun to watch for early signs of frustration and stop there and breathe before it gets worse.

Annoying Habits - WOW!! I have a TON of these. Big and small things that she finds annoying. Unfortunately, most of what she gives me has been in the form of Traits so I have been spending a lot of time thinking these over and trying to identify specific habits associated with the perception, and working on them.
You are inconsiderate and rude - I have begun being more concious of my manners and the way I act towards people
You are annoying - I know a couple things that annoy her, as far as like, picking up after myself, making noises while eating, putting certain things in a certain place, folding her tacos a certain way, etc, that I am working on and trying to remember.
You dont listen - I have been doing a lot of work, hard work, on proper listening skills. This one has been a real battle, but progress is being made.

Independant Behavior - I have been guilty of this. I used to go to work and then come home and that woudl be it, no calls, didnt even know when I would be home. I have begun calling after my workout (8am), lunch time, and right before I leave, to keep her updated. We arent allowed to bring our phones into work for security reasons, but I have made sure she has the work number. At this point, I feel like i have to do many things independantly since she seems to refuse to engage in them with me.

Dishonesty - This one is a real pain since I definately agree that it includes openness and transparency. I am doing these changes for me, but I also want her to see the changes and choose to stay. However, I dont feel I can tell her this. This is one example of many things I dont feel like I can really share with her right now. I am not sure where to draw the line. It used to be that I would tell her basically everything I could think of.


I am trying to figure out a way for us to sit down and set up some ground rules for Negotiations. She has previously said that its something we should do.

I am also trying to figure out a way to get her to do a Telephone MC with Doc Harley. I dont want to trick her into it, but I also dont want this to end and feel like I didnt do EVERYTHING I POSSIBLY COULD to try to save it.

I am also trying to continue gathering information on AH's, IB's and other LBs that I might not be aware of yet.

I am also working on trying to really identify her top emotional needs.

I think so far it is:

Family Commitment
Affection
Conversation (she talks to friends a LOT now, and we USED to talk CONSTANTLY!)
Domestic Support

I am not sure if these are really the most important ones for her, or if they are the ones she has said because they are not being met. Need to keep investigating and seeking hints.

BT, my kids love that Breakeven song, play it over and over. I like it, too, a sad, beautiful song. The line that really resonates with my is "What am I supposed to do when the best part of me was always you." I always had a dream of the family we were creating, and I'm not sure why it's not a one-time thing, coming to accept reality.

Where is your wife going every night for a few hours at 9pm every night? Am I reading this correctly?

Can you two work out together instead of you going alone? It's give her the opportunity to have some of her best times of the day with you, if you two enjoy exercise, quiet time where she's not having to take care of the kids and stuff. From your post it sounds like "kid-free" time is very important to her. I have friends like this. My guess is that this type of person is like other wives, top two ENs are Conversation and Affection. What does she talk with her family about? I'm guessing some things that would make deposits would be to talk to her about kid-free time for the two of you that you're planning, like date nights, weekends away. You mentioned FC, that makes too. You can add conversation about stuff that shows her she's not on her own with the kids anymore. Fun FC time stuff. Family trips.

I don't know how old your kids are, but some FC things my H does that lets me know we are in a new phase, not the same-old same-old, is signing their backpacks, helping with homework, putting their activities on the calendar. Seeing his handwriting on the family calendar, not just mine, reminds me we are a team every day when I look at it. Your wife is likely of two minds on her decision, whether she tells you or not, and IMO you need to give her pro-marriage side as much ammunition as possible.

Do you two still sleep in the same room? Do you make the bed, and let her know you're doing this as affection? Does she still hug you goodbye? Can you take the opportunity and do something like telling her her hair smells good today, how soft her skin is, how beautiful she is? Again, giving her pro-M side ammunition, reminding and reconnecting her with her how much she likes your hugs, how you smell, how you feel in her arms, how handsome you are.

Does she work outside the home? If she is, would you be able to come home earlier for a time, pick up the kids, fix supper, put the dishes up after? Can you afford a housekeeper to come in? How can you make your home and life together attractive and inviting?


No, BT, MBing isn't about finding the onus and fault. It's about sharing your best time together, creating a life that is special and meaningful for both of you, together. It really isn't work. I know I'm doing a great Plan A when it doesn't feel like work, feels like playing together, when I feel most like myself, enjoying my H getting a respite, getting to be himself, too.

She mostly goes to the beach or to a meadow or a drive or errands or something. She specifically says she doesnt want me to come wiht. We used to walk on the beach together all the time, especially when we still lived in CA. Now I am not wanted during this time.

I have asked to work out with her, and even as recent as 3-4 months ago, I was kinda working her out as a sort of coach and we would do it together. There were a couple incidents where I would forget to ask her to work out, or would be in the middle of something and callously chose to not do it when she asked, and added with everything else, at some point she stopped asking. It wasnt until later when she said she was going for a run one day and I asked if I could come and she said "No, I dont want to work out with you anymore."


I really like this. I have no idea what she talks to her friends about. Her family is basically her mom and dad. Her dad is out of contact because he has no phone or internet. Her mom is a "recovering" addict who she still loves and cares for despite everything. But I do think that is a great idea about setting "dates" for us as a family. We went to the circus, though she planned most of that and it was fun. Perhaps I can do more on this. It is very hard with moving, new job, and learning stuff like this to find time, but I love my wife so I will do it somehow.


15months, son, our first son would be 3 but he was born premature and passed away


Thank you so much for these ideas, will add them. We have a calender up now and I want to add a "bulletin board" for my reminders since I so often forget things like honey-do requests and stuff.



No we dont sleep in the same room as of a week ago. It was the day before our stuff got delivered to our new house, when she mentioned she didnt want to sleep with me once we had more than the air mattress. I agreed to go elsewhere. I am not sure what kind of stuff to stand up for and when to respect her wishes and let it be. I have been specifically asked not to give certain types of comments, and at other times, she has gotten a P.O.'d expression when I have given a compliment or made a remark, like it makes her mad or uncomfortable. But then, other times, when it seems like she isnt focusing on being mad at me, she will just smile and say thanks. I am trying to learn better how to "read" her and pick these more open times out and offer her what I can. I will keep working on it. She also avoids all physical contact with me, even accidental she will jump away like I am burning her or something. Oh gosh does that hurt when I see that. Tears my heart out. Yesterday during our March of Dimes walk, thinking about our first son, I think I would have given both my eyes for just one hug and moment of comfort to share between us.


She doesnt work out of the house yet. She has begun looking for work in the city 40 mins away that she says she wants to move in. I WANT her to be happy and do well, so I feel guilty when I am sometimes thankful the economy is so terrible and she is having trouble finding work. Man this is crazy. She tries to avoid me cooking her things, though I get to sneak them by occasionally. I DO pick up dishes and "housekeep" as soon as I see things. I know she notices the increased effort, but she still slams me when I forget something. I left the refried beans out last night from our sons supper and about 5 oz were left and they spoiled. That turned into, "omg, how stupid can you be, just throwing money away." and so on. I calmly said I am not stupid, I made a mistake, and she said "well you sure do stupid things," but seemed a little calmer since I didnt rise to the bait. I am not sure if there is a better way to have handled. I am so not in the habit of being a father. She is so far ahead of me as far as knowing his schedule and what he likes and stuff. I leave for work before his breakfast, so I have to ask her what hes having for supper since I dont know what Bfast or lunch was. I dont like it because I feel like she takes that to mean I am unfit to be a father. Maybe I can start asking what his bfast / lunch was when I call from work, then when I get home I can do supper and show how interested and competant I am.


I think I understand that, but waht I was trying to say was that I cant do those things that make her happy if she doesnt tell me something is making her unhappy. As such, no one can just magic pill make her happy, she has to communicate what she needs and offer the other person the chance to fulfill those. I cant read her mind and just KNOW what to do. I can slowly figure things out and I am learning to do it to an extent, but something like not liking the way I make her sandwiches, I cant guess that unless she says something. I didnt mean to sound like I was trying to assign blame. I think we are both to blame, and for the sake of eachother, our child, and my own selfish needs (which I am not ashamed of having) we both deserve to really give this a chance. I know I am willing to work very hard on this.

A new problem / issue.

I am rereading Q/A's and part of the book etc.

First: on the article about how to pull your partner out of a state of withdrawal, he says "stop making her unhappy. She wont let you meet her needs until she can put defenses down and that wont happen till she feels safe."

So... what am I doing tht makes her not feel safe? I honestly dont know and will have to think a lot about it. I have some ideas to start with I think. But this all makes that line of talking with her where I have to choose whether to confront something or not that much harder to me to figure out.

Second: Emotional Infidelity. One of the first responses was "is she having an affair?" I said no, no physical affairs, but while I still believe that, rereading the part about emotional affairs I think is possible. During the 4 months we stayed in a place till we got our house, another of the "roommates" was a ~60yr old guy that I also work with. He is a nice guy and enjoys watching TV. Since I was playing games, and my wife watches TV, they would hang out. In addition, for a while my work schedule was weird, so he would have a day off while I was working, and they would hang out all day. Now she considers the guy a friend, even I consider him a friend and a decent guy. However, they talk frequently, he has stayed over, and she has mentioned since he is unhappy staying in the place we had just left, she wanted to ask him to be her roommate to save costs. They both asked me if I would throw a fit about it, and I said no it seemed fine to me.

Now it doesnt. Now that I think about it, she wasnt really "adamant" about her leaving until the last couple months, and I wonder if it was due to having some of her Emotional Needs being met by this guy. I would bet my life there is no physical intimacy going on, but I know they share a lot of thier feelings and stuff. I already am pretty sure the need for Conversation is one of my wifes major needs, and she seems to turn to him now for that need.

Does this sound like an affair? Am I wrong to now not be comfortable with them living together? Do I have a right to tell her that she shouldnt be such good friends with him since it was emotional infidelity? I would love to hear any other viewpoints so maybe I can get a new angle to work on this helps me make sense of it.

Thanks to any and all of you that are bothering to work through my walls of text and leave thoughts. I really appreciate it a lot!

Couple things tonight:

We were making dinner and have a guest over.

She asked how long the pork would take, and I said 15 mins in the oven. (W-wife, M-me)
W: (very demanding) WHAT?!? YOU ARE GOING TO COOK IT ON THE GRILL!!
(silence)
M: (sarcastic tone) fine, YES MA'AM!!
W: (flippant) fine, do whatever you want, I dont even care.
M: (slightly more calm) No, you obviously do care or you wouldnt have said anything. Thank you for letting me know what you want, I will go start the grill I guess
W: No, make it in the oven, I dont even care.
(this went back and forth, till our friend said something about "good lord you 2!" and laughed. I left the room to start the grill, came inside and the friend was in the bathroom)
M: I am sorry, I dont want to fight. I shouldnt have answered you sarcastically like that, I am sorry.
W: Its ok, just dont teach our son that.
M: Ok. I also dont appreciate it when you order me around, I wish you wouldnt do that.
(short silence)
W: (calmly) Would you mind cooking it on the grill?
M: No, I dont mind the grill, I just havent done it in a while and dont want to burn it or anything, and the grill's been acting up since the move so I am not sure if I will be able to get it to work. I will try.
W: Oh, well ok then, well if it doesnt work I am sure it will be fine in the oven too.
M: Ok

This was huge. It was a disastrous opening with my initial response that I regretted as soon as it left my mouth. I was so pissed at what I percieved as teh PRESUMPTUOUSNESS of her tone. But after I left and came back, the follow through and resolution just felt so good. I hope we can learn to resolve all conflicts like that where we both are happy and respect eachother.


Second: We watched Time Travelers Wife after dinner.
I cant what specifically touched me, but I had a definate reaction to it and was trying not to show it to our guest and her. She noticed and said "You are either falling asleep or crying." (silence) "Are you awake" (I nodded). Our guest got up for the bathroom and I got up to go to the sink. She asked me what I liked about the movie. I wish so badly that I would have just answered. I was choked up wasnt sure words would have come out and I didnt want our guest to show up in the middle of a "moment" so I asked if we could please talk about it tomorrow? She actually smiled and said "sure." (short silence) I said as I left the room, "I liked that they werent perfect." She said good night to me, which hasnt been a norm for the last few weeks, so I really appreciated it.

I am so excited for tomorrow. Its MONDAY! That means places might be open and a PERSON might answer when I call them. I might be able to get some things DONE!!

BT, you asked what you can do, and you mentioned above the AOs. Who wants to live with a tyrant? How about reading the article on AOs, and going to your wife and telling her you see that this is harmful behavior, you're sorry for having indulged in it, and will make amends by eliminating it?

I'm not sure what to say about your wife being gone for hours every night, and this guy you all were living with, that she wants to live with once you're separated. It's like a chicken-or-egg thing, you sound like you don't have the information to know whether your wife's attitude about your M is from comparing with this or some other guy or not. Have other folks suggested you do some snooping? What do you think?

You mentioned she made a comment "omg, how stupid can you be, just throwing money away." BT, how can you nip these in the bud, because that is like the the opposite of the warm inviting home you're trying to create, where you two are both at your best? Some folks respond to sympathy, "oh, wow, it sounds like there's really something wromng, what's the matter?" It's like she's not mad about the beans, but what they remind her of, and she's not confident that you want to hear her perspective yet, so she complains about trivial stuff instead. If it's beans on the counter, maybe it's a fear of finincial security? If you can get the dialogue going, I think that would be easier than saying, "well, if you won't tell me in a way that's easy for me to hear, then I won't know and that's it." Not the all or nothing, finding the middle ground.

What do you think about calling the Harleys? I saw the post their radio show comes back on today. Have you read the article, Why Women Leave Men?

Yes I read the article why Women Leave Men. I showed it to her and she read it. She thinks his statements about the woman are dead on.

But she doesnt think the rest applies.

You might be right about teh complaints of trivial things having a different reason. I dont know. I have done the "I am sorry for the things I have done." I told her again tonight. She says "OK" but I get the idea that she still doesnt trust me. I can understand that, but I am working on things and doing my best.

I am 100% for calling the Harley's. I am not rich, but compared to her and where we are going, the money is nothing. As long as my baby boy is taken care of and she is taken care of I dont need anything else for me.

I asked her about it. I was using the "radical honesty" and told her that its a marraige and relationship focused counseling service that is done over the phone so that we dont have to leave. She asked if it costs money. I said yes. She said well that seems dumb since we have a free appointment with a counselor on base. I told her that I would probably do the phone therapist either way if nothing else than for me, but am willing to "try" the free one before calling. I also said that if I do call them I would like it if she joined me on the call. She gave a non-commital response.

I am having trouble communicating what I am feeling, being honest about it, and trying to really connect with her. I keep analyzing things and thinking when I should be just listening and understanding. It is very hard to break this habit. I was explaining POJA to her tonight because she was saying after reading teh "why women leave men" she thought POJA was stupid and didnt apply to us. I meant to ask her what she meant and why she felt that way, and what she was feeling, but she asked me a question, and before I know it I was basically lecturing her on what it meant and she wasnt really listening because (I assume) she is tired of being lectured at. I wasnt mean about it, didnt raise my voice or anything, but it was another one way conversation of me telling her she is wrong.

I dont want to do that anymore. I am having trouble stopping. We talk about things so often, and always have and never get to the feelings and the connections.

Is it Independant Behavior if I want us to recover from this, if I want us to be happy again, and I do things that I think will help with that, even though she doesnt want it right now, or possibly ever?

Is it dishonesty if I tell her that a counselor might help us communicate better without fighting so that we CAN be friends like she says she wants, even though I REALLY mostly want to go to counseling with her so that she can see that we COULD be happy, and to help me BE better so I can be someone she wants to be around? I know that if we reach that point, then we will be communicating better and be freiends, but it feels wrong.

I told her tonight the "other" reason I want to go to counseling, just on the off chance she changes her mind I want to be someone worth sticking around for. She kinda smirked but didnt say anything.

So lost and confused.

I just heard that song for the first time the other night, and I have to say that my first reaction to that line was NOT like NED's. I think it betrays the singer's emotional immaturity and neediness. That line alone explains why the girl he laments left for someone better. I wanted to tell that pathetic singer to go get his own life! (Ok, that was NOT my most compassionate moment, but honest!)


I do this too. And I too have been working on it. Analyzing is very much a DJ, because I can't really KNOW. Instead, focus on the facts, and my feelings about the facts. And when in doubt, keep my mouth shut and ears open.

A few thoughts after reading through.


This is not RC. It must be done with undivided attention. Just clarifying. This is more family commitment.


No, your comment about thinking she is being incredibly selfish is not O&H. It is a DJ.

However, saying to us that you don�t respect her ability to make her own decisions is HUGE honesty on your part. Kudos to you for this self-awareness. Turn it around and that says that you acknowledge that you are disrespectful of her ability to make her own decisions. Even if you don�t say it, trust me she knows by your tone and past actions. This is probably one reason she feels �unsafe� You can change this about yourself. However, if you change this about yourself simply for her benefit she will see right through it, not trust it, and you will likely be very disappointed, because she probably has 10 other reasons why she feels unsafe around you, most of which she probably isn�t aware of. And remember it is NOT your job to make her aware. That�s her side of the street not yours.

However, if you change this disrespectful attitude of yours because you now realize it�s wrong and goes against your own code of behavior, regardless of how she reacts or responds, there�s a good chance that change will be trusted. It probably will not be enough. Just one small pebble in the brook.


Would you talk to my husband, please?


I bet you don�t make thoughtful requests either, though. My husband (who sounds a bit like you, but unwilling to give up IB) rarely makes selfish demands. However, he does not request much from me either. DJ alert . . . I believe it is because he is afraid that if he makes a request of me, I will retaliate by making requests of HIM. Actually, I would be thrilled if he would make requests of me, and complaints too for that matter, because when he does, I take such things VERY seriously.




This is exactly what POJA is. Ground rules. Don�t do anything that you can�t both agree to enthusiastically. Start with small things together (like grocery shopping). In my case, I am only holding myself to POJA. I use it as my own personal boundary against sacrificing me for marriage, or asking my husband to sacrifice for me. What my husband chooses to do when we negotiate and problem solve is his business, and if he chooses IB, I accept it, dislike it, let him know, and then it�s his problem, not mine.

Well, since you would be the "betrayed spouse" you are the one who gets to decide whether it is emotionaly infidelity or not. If you think it is, then it is. Her needs ARE being met by a male friend. MB believes that there is aboslutely no place for friends of the opposite sex in marriage. At all.
You ought to have this thread move to the survviving an affair board. Also, read up on Mark 1952. He could have a lot of very wise advice for you with regard to this. I'll send a shout out to him to come visit your thread.

I am reading through these responses. I need to read them again... thanks so much...

I think its a great example of the "Why Women Leave Men." She fell out of love due to neglect, and now he is hurting because he wasnt aware of any problem due to his neglecting her. I think this guy could learn a lot from this site, but his song is basically where I was about 3 weeks ago... so it resonates. I feel like I could give him an idea on "what hes supposed to do..."


This summed it up nicely, I like it. It IS a DJ. I hadnt realized that.


This is spot on. Its a conclusion I came to her and told her about. That many of these things I am working on, its not just her that is annoyed by it. My not respecting other peoples ability to make their own decisions because I am think I am so much better REALLY PISSES PEOPLE OFF. It also irritates me off, because I dont REALLY think I should make everyones decisions for them. So yes, its a thing I want to work on for me.


I need to find a way to your zen. I can handle the sticking to POJA alone I think, with time developing it as a habit, but the idea of "what she does is her business" is terrifying. This is my DJ coming back to mess me up I think. If "what she does" is choose to adhere to POJA, and work to fix this, then fine by me, but if she doesnt and still wants to leave and not try, to me that doesnt make sense and I dont know how to handle it. Its like meeting a guy who has been in the desert stranded for 3 days on the cusp of death, offering him water, and he says "no I'm good." I would think that guy is just insane or delusional or not thinking "right." So do I not think she is thinking right? Who am I to decide what she is allowed to think? So how do I share myself, adhere to POJA, and then what if she doesnt? You said accept it, tell him, and then its his problem. What do you do after that?

I need to learn how to LET GO. I am not her puppet master. No wonder she feels controlled and stifled. Like she hasnt been allowed to grow. How do I learn to accept it?

My zen? That's funny I'm so NOT zen most of the time. I do a lot of pity partying.

However, the nice thing about character defects is that if I can spot it in someone else, chances are it's also one of my own character defects which is hidden from my awareness. Sometime when you are bored you should make a list of all the things about your wife that irritate the heck out of you. Then try to stop doing those things yourself and see what happens

You are right on track. You have to learn how to let go and learn to accept. For me, saying the serenity prayer helps. "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference." Yes, it is cliche. But the only thing you CAN change is yourself. If you attempt to change other people, places and things, you will find yourself becoming as crazy as that nut job in the desert refusing water.

Sometimes we prefer to spend our energy spinning our wheels tryint to change what we can't, because deep down we are afraid of what will happen when we put that same energy into changing what we can - ourselves.

You are not responspible for the outcome, only the effort. Reminding myself of this helps me to let go.

Practicing, making mistakes, doing better next time. That's how we learn. It does not happen overnight. Especially acceptance. Today, I can accept my husband's IB and irritating traits. Tomorrow, I may not. Some days are better than others. I do my best. He can choose to accept THAT, or not.

I'm really sorry to hear about your premature son. I have several friends who've had micro-premies. What an ache your wife and you must both have. I felt for you when you talked about the March of Dimes thing and just wanting a hug from her.

It is OK to ask your wife for a hug. I know it is terrifying. You're afraid of her rejection. I know, I have avoided asking for things all of my life because of that fear. Asking for what we want is a humbling experience, because it means admitting that I am imperfect and can't do it all. It means shedding the mask. And it means being vulnerable. But asking is also power, good power. We can choose to be deflated by a rejection, or choose to not take it personally and give others the dignity of their own choice, even if it is a callous, mean, insensitive choice. It's theirs, let them own it. By not asking, you are robbing her of the chance to say yes or no, and robbing her of a type of dignity and respect.

OK, I'm done for the evening. You're doing fine. Get some help from the SAA folks. They will know how to handle this "friend." I have not doubt both he and your wife have innocent intentions, but that's usually how it starts. Yes, your wife may be pissed in the short term if you ask her to cut this person out of your lives, if you decide to take a stand for your marriage. I've done some lurking on the affair boards and you could be in for a rough road ahead.

BT,

Think asked me to stop by and look at your thread. I actually looked at it before but thought you had some folks helping you out that could get you going in the right direction and because my job now pretty much prevents me from getting much MB time in during the day, I figured I'd let somebody else try to help you out. But since Think called me to come have a look and because I'm here reading, I will give you a couple bits of advice.

First of all, your wife absolutely IS having an affair. She might not even think of it that way because she feels that she hasn't crossed any lines yet. The thing is that an affair isn't really a line that gets crossed it is really more of a process that takes place like turning off the main highway and heading down a road to some town where the city limits are still quite some distance off. The thing is that the road is going there and so is anyone that is on that road.

Many who have an affair, in my opinion more women than men though I have no evidence for it right now, start down that road without ever realizing that it is where the road is taking them. Since they aren't really sexually attracted to the soon to be affair partner they feel that there is nothing beyond friendship that is taking place.

The thing is that once a person is allowed to meet any of our emotional needs for us, they begin to make deposits into our love bank and without even realizing it we start to crave the feelings that we get when with that person.

Now especially if she feels that there is no physical attraction involved your wife probably doesn't see any problems with having a relationship with some guy that is 60 years old. After all, she tells herself, it isn't like she is lusting after his body for sex or anything.

The problem comes from the fact that an unfair comparison is taking place, She is comparing you with all the known faults, maybe years of feeling that you didn't recognize the things she wanted from you etc with some guy that is simply talking to her and sharing some sort of emotional connection. Since she doesn't really know much about him and doesn't ever have to deal with his "dark side" where he might have a bad day or get angry and start yelling (he has nothing invested in a relationship with her and so has no reason to protect his territory since it isn't his to begin with) she sort of fills in the gaps with things she imagines.

That means that you aren't competing against a 60 year old man but against a brand new fantasy that has no bad history, only pure romantic nonsense.

Now if you were to ask me if your wife is wanting to run off with this guy and live happily ever after I would have to answer that I do not believe that to be the case. But what has happened is that your wife has created this fantasy that real life can't hope to compete with and so she isn't comparing you to him at all but to some ideal that she has created. The part of this that is so dangerous is that if this guy is attracted to her and has much in the tank at all (trust me when I say that 60 doesn't mean dead, I'm only two years from that myself) and so he might be highly attracted to your wife and for him that might be enough to get him to keep feeding her whatever she needs in order to keep the fantasy growing.

Like I said, right now she isn't really planning to marry this guy. She is however using what she is getting from him in the way of having her ENs met to dismantle her connection to you. She is having feelings for him even without sexual attraction and to her this is telling her that she is no longer attracted to you and so can't possibly be in love with you any more. So for her this is a place to begin her journey for the real true love of her life, since she has no discounted you as being that person.

So that is the bad news...

The good news is that she fell in love with you before and she can fall in love with you all over again. You have given a lot of reasons why you can't meet her ENs for her. It might not have been unmet ENs as much as Love Busters that did the damage in the first place, but you still need to try to meet her ENs in any way that she allows.

You stand a lot better chance of getting her to let you meet her ENs if you stop trying to convince her to stay with you all together and work instead at becoming the man she fell in love with before and the man she can fall in love with again.

Do not fear losing her, BT. She is already planning to leave. Concentrate on doing things that will give her a reason to stay and give up on trying to find a way to get her to stay. I hope you understood that. You can't make her stay. You need to give her a reason to stay and work on the marriage and when I say give her a reason, I am not talking about reasoning with her and trying to convince her. You can't fix the relationship in order to save it and must save it first if you hope to fix it. Don't try to educate her. Don't ry to convince her. Don't try to force her to see the light. Don't try to explain it to her...

Just do a couple of focused and specific things...

1) Meet whatever ENs she allows you to meet as often and as graciously as you can.
2) Identify any Love Buster behavior in yourself and kill it dead, bury it and set it on fire. Destroy love busters and rid your life of them.

Any time she spends with you has to be the most enjoyable part of her life. Arguing will not accomplish that so simply do not argue...even if she starts it, don't argue with her.

If you can afford to talk to Steve Harley, call and make an appointment...Not next week, do it ASAP. If you can't afford it then at least get Surviving An Affair. Either buy it or check it out at the library. (That is where I got a copy to read when I first got here.)

Snoop like the CIA to figure out how far this relationship with the 60 year old has gone. Cell phone records, phone records, emails, SMS (test messages) can all show a pattern. Also keep an open mind as to the possibility that it is actually someone else that is the real problem right now, though if for no other reason that the danger of allowing another man to live in your home makes me think he is at least the trigger to the problem if not the specific affair partner of her dreams...


Once you know for sure what is going on, blow the whistle on it without warning. People will help you get the idea of exposure down and you will of course resist it claiming to lack evidence, that exposure targets will side with her and them and that if you expose this you will make things worse...

Been there, done that, heard it all before...You aren't going to come up with anything new so just skip it and work on a list of who you might expose the affair to. You don't need iron-clad proof or even proof that will hold up in court. All you need is enough to convince yourself that your wife is cheating on you. Look for it, find it and then expose what you know is true to anyone who might be able to make it harder to have an affair than to work on the marriage.

Be aware that when you finally do expose the affair, she will tell you that you have blown any chance that she will ever love you ever again. She will say that she was thinking about working on the marriage but now you have blown it and it is your fault that she hates you and...

Just simply ignore it...

Read up on Plan A. Read the articles, the Q&A columns about infidelity, the book SAA, anything people point you to. Knowledge is your best friend right now. The more you can learn about combating infidelity the better you can fight. Remember that your fight is with a fantasy, the affair itself and not your wife. It also helps to imagine that the person you see that looks like your wife is really an alien who has kidnapped her and replaced her with a clone programmed to hurt you and try to destroy your marriage and rob you of your will to fight for your wife.

Read the first couple pages of my "Musings" thread linked in my sig line. If you haven't yet read them, go to the Notable Posts forum and read WAT's Quick Start Guide and Longhorn's thread for newly betrayed spouses.

Your situation is not hopeless, BT. Stop trying to convince yourself that it is and do something to stop the bleeding. You can give up without a fight if you want to but if you want to fight then train, learn and fight remembering that you need to fight the affair and not your wife or even the other man. You need to fight the fantasy and you can do that most effectively by offering her something that is better than the fantasy because she knows it is real. Make being with you a better option than being with OM or ANY OM because YOU are the man she can't live without.

You have NO control over anything she does, That means NONE, Nada, zip, zilch, zero, nothing, not one tiny little bit... Don't even try to change her mind or her heart or her actions or her words. Focus on what you have control over. That would be what YOU do, BT. That is all you can predetermine the outcome of for any actions you might choose. Choose only actions that make her see you as her hero and avoid anything that makes her see you as her enemy.

Fight the affair by making the affair harder and working on the marriage easier. Fight the affair by making yourself the best BT that has ever been and let her see that you are him. Fix yourself to save your marriage and if you save it worry about fixing the marriage once you know you have it back

Bull riding is eight seconds (if you hang on that long)of total terror usually followed by a sudden <THUD> when you hit the ground. Fighting an affair by using Plan A is going to be just as terrifying, just as dangerous, just as hard and last a lot longer. So mount up, wrap up and git 'er done. Cowboy up!

Nobody can give you the magic words because there aren't any. No one will hand you a magic bullet because magic has nothing to do with it. You stand a chance of pulling this off if you do everything right. If you do nothing you stand no chance at all.

Meet her ENs
Avoid Love Busters
Identify your enemy by snooping and attack the affair by exposing it to anyone who might tell her or him to stop this stupid teenage actions and get real.

My posts aren't all this length.
Most of 'em are longer...

Mark

book marking this one !!! good job mark !

Mark,

I graciously thank you for this, will be printing it out and reading it again when I feel like crap and need a kick in the rear to move me.

You are right, the idea of this OM and exposing it is just unbelievably terrifying. If they never do anything with it, can I still expose it as an affair, even if they "only" meet EN's? I know a couple people I can tell that too that she values. That I could dang near copy paste your explanation or the one in QnA Letters and explain it like that and it would go through. I dont feel like I could prove it "in court" though, but maybe I dont have to?

BT,

I suggest that you click on <Notify> and ask the mods to move this to SAA.

Study Plan A so you know what you need to do and what you need to expect. Then develop a PLAN and don't just flounder around. Then follow your PLAN instead of just floundering around in response to what she does.

Mark

ok, I am halfway through the Infidelity QnA's. I noticed that the plans are on the bottom.

In good news, her dad is getting a phone and called her from another. She told me he told her that moving and starting a new job and all the other stresses combined with marraige stresses isnt a very good recipe for making positive changes, and that maybe we are settled she should give it a little time to see. She told him that she "gave him a chance and he didnt do it" but.... she only told him that her decision was final as far as moving out at least to spend a little time on her own.

Now, this is interesting, because she has told me that it is final as far never being together again. So she tells her dad something different, who she trusts. I cant read her mind, but that is a sign to me that she is not so sure of her choice. I am hoping its because she is noticing noticing my commitment.

Regardless, I felt so proud of her today. I realized what several people have already said and it clicked. She is protecting herself. For the whole time we have been married she nearly always put up with things she didnt like, without complaining. She sacrificed her wants because she thought that would make us happy. Now she is learning that its ok to have wants and have them filled. She has come to me with "I wish you would do THIS," with a sort of tone that says she expects this to be an issue or a fight and that I am not going to support her. The reality is I want her to be happy, and while I have learned that I should not sacrifice myself for her happiness, if I can happily give her something she needs, than we both win, and when she saw me say "ok" and do it, her jaw kinda dropped, then she closed her mouth, turned to the side, and head tilted to the side watching me out of the corner all thoughtfully.

She is so beautiful. I cant believe how I neglected her, but that time is over.

Plan A and B in action:

So, I used to play computer games a lot. A LOT. It was an independant behavior, often times selfish demand (why cant you just leave me alone, I am busy), disrespectful judgement (I think you just wait till I am busy to ask me to do things), angry outburst (see SD statement, different tone), and, well you can see it.

My wife, without knowing, used Plan A and B on me.

Plan A - she told me I wasnt being a part of her and my sons life, and I needed to make time for them, suggesting maybe instead of playing games I could try, you know, living life. It escalated from there, since I didnt stop, though I said I would play less, or make time for her, and so on, and she escalated it, making her displeasure known.

Then, she decided it wasnt working and went to Plan B. She cut me out of her life emotionally. I missed her. I am not sure if I quit all games before I noticed this, or if I quit, and then with all the free time, THEN noticed that she wasnt emotionally there. Either way, its pretty much Plan B.

Only problem for me is... she wasnt using them with the intent of saving our marriage, she using them to protect herself, which is her right. So now that I "got the messege," it might be too late.

This is not a pity party, just a thought I had after reading about the handling infidelity all day today... it can work any time your spouse is "cheating" on you with anything else. If they are avoiding emotions and thereby avoiding fulfilling your needs by playing a game alone instead of conversing, being affectionate, family commitments, or recreational activities together, well... that game, or activity, is the OM or OW in an Emotional Affair.

I remember going through "withdrawal" with all my free time when I quit. I questioned whether the "fun" I had was really less important than other things in my life. Luckily I realized immediately that the temporary good feeling I gained by avoiding my emotions and playing a game did not compare to the feelings of acceptance and fulfillment my marriage had been a source of.

Is this completely misinterpreting it? Is it possible to have an emotional affair with, say, hackeysack? or reading books? or any other sort of activity that doesnt even involve another person?

BT,

I wouldn't say it is an EA, but it certainly can be an addiction, which is really what an affair is all about. The person in an affair becomes addicted to the affair partner, in exactly the same way they can become addicted to anything.

Anything that stimulates our pleasure/reward center in our brain causes massive amounts of chemicals to be released that triggers the release of neurotransmitters. These neurotransmitters provide us with a bunch of emotional responses including a sort of euphoria (dopamine), well being (serotonin) and other feelings including connectedness (vasopressin) and bonding (oxytocin). The two biggies as far as addiction are concerned are dopamine and serotonin and the precursor of dopamine, PEA.

So while not really a case of falling in love with a game, the chemicals involved are actually the same ones. In any kind of affair or in fact in any relationship that involves sexual attraction as well, the sexual stimulus in both men and women is provided by testosterone. Typically an affair, even one that has no physical component, includes sexual attraction, but beyond that, an affair (or the feeling of romantic love) and any other addiction is chemically nearly identical.

Time to get a plan together, BT. First you need to identify what her top Emotional Needs might be. Typically women have in their top ENs Conversation, Affection, Financial Support, Family Commitment, and Honesty/Openness. While some might have some of the ones typically indicated by men as top ENs, it can safely be assumed that two of the top 5 will be Conversation and Affection.

Based on what you said your wife stated in the past, I would focus on trying to come up with a plan to attempt to meet Conversation, Affection and Family Commitment, though Honesty/Openness should not be far from your mind either.

The easy way out would be to point to Recreational Companionship as the key, but it is more likely that she has other ENs that mean more to her than having a good time with a friend and typically, RC falls under the general list of a man's most important ENs. Not saying it can't happen, but her efforts to get you to spend time with her more likely indicate her need for you to spend time with the family and her, talking honestly and openly about life in general and your lives to be more specific.

If you can swing it, calling the coaching center to talk to Steve or Jennifer will net you more rapid return than simply reading and posting here on the forums. Now I put together a Plan A by reading here and in the books and talking to someone who had been through Dr Harley's material in the past, though honestly, he wasn't all that much of an encouragement to keep plugging along. That is what the forums can give you, BTW, is the encouragement you need to keep going in the face of what appears to be failure.

If you do two things, and concentrate on just those two things, you stand a better chance of saving your marriage than by trying to react to whatever she might do in response to any given action on your part. Those two things boil down to this: 1) Meet her Emotional Needs & 2) Avoid all Love busters.

But you also need to snoop in order to rule out that she might be having an affair of any kind. Keep in mind that people leave their spouse over emotional affairs as often as physical ones. The relationship suffers that same decline and the same detrimental comparisons to a fantasy involving someone that is only known as an online personality as if the person lived across the street and was sneaking into your house 5 minutes after you left for work in the morning and staying all day.

Whether trying to win back a spouse who is having an affair or simply one who is in a sate of Withdrawal, the steps are really the same; meet her ENs, and avoid Love Busters. If there is an affair an additional step is also needed, that of making the affair less attractive than the marriage. This is done by exposing the affair to anyone who might have influence over either of the affair partners and by doing other things that make the affair harder to continue than ending it.

But if there is no affair, then the problem is simply that she has fallen out of love with you. The good news is that falling in love with you again is a very real possibility if you can become the man she wants to fall in love with. To that end...

Meet her ENs
Avoid Love Busters.

Mark

I didnt know that about all the specific chemicals, but its interesting to know that they are basically the same minus the sexual attraction (testosterone).

As for my plan, thats about it right there. I am trying to meet EN's and stomp out LB's. I have my earlier post where I have them all listed out and my "plan" or "progress" with them. I am using that post and will probably update it soon, to kinda keep tabs on and track myself for now.

I have a question though.

With this possibility of an EA and exposing it. I want to be honest and open with her. I dont want to hide things from her. I dont feel right with the idea of exposing her without telling her how I feel first. I think since I gave them the "ok" to hang out, I should at least state that I am not ok with it before accusing anyone of an EA.

Early on in their friends (her and the OM) she would ask if I was ok with her sitting on the couch with him watching tv, or going to the store together. At the time I reasoned that I would look like an insecure and untrusting control freak if I didnt let her have her 1 friend, so I said sure.

What I REALLY did was avoid telling her my feelings. What I really did was sacrifice myself and lie to her to "make her happy" because of my DJ of her ability to hear my true feelings and handle them. What I REALLY did was throw away an opportunity to show her how much I love her by telling her how I felt and offering to be the one that went to the store with her or sat on the couch and watched TV with her.

So you mentioned calling the Harley's.

I want to, I will probably do it regardless and have told her. However, she already agreed to go with me to an MC (appointment on Monday, 10 May) and she suggested we go to the "free" (we dont have to pay anything out of pocket) one first. I agreed that its worth a try, though I am anxious and afraid we might get a "divorce" counselor.

However, a main reason I agreed was becuase I recognized myself and what I was doing. I am comfortable with the Harley's because I have been on this site and it makes sense. I know that I will be asked to do a lot of work and make a lot of changes and it will be hard, but since I can anticipate this, I still feel some control.

It is very hard for me to give up control. It makes me feel anxious afraid and insecure.

So going to this "free" MC and not knowing anything about it, while she does the same I think kinda shows a trust. My wife is willing to give up the control and go to this stranger. The only reason I should feel insecure and afraid is if I really believed that my wife wasnt intelligent enough to be able to also recognize if the counselor was doing more harm than good. I dont. So I will go with an open mind and find the positives. I can be happy that she is going with me at all. I still would rather have a Marraige Coach than a Counselor, but who knows what we will get.

Update on ENs' LBs' and my plan:

Here is what I am working on right now:

EMOTIONAL NEEDS (*** - things I am specifically working on or am able to work on)

Affection - I cannot really work on this in many ways since she has told me specifically to not touch her or show affection. I picked her wild flowers today on my way home from work. Also have a mothers day "mother" locket with our family laser etched into it.

Sexual Fufillment - Completely not allowed to even attempt to fulfill this one. Says she is disgusted by me, even though she still thinks physically I am very attractive.

***Conversation - Having trouble with my habits. I am getting better at listening, but I am still debating a lot and not negotiating. She gets very frustrated. Also, I am having a LOT of trouble thinking of things to talk about BESIDES us, which is obviously NOT happy and therefore does not meet EN's

***Recreational Companionship - Ok, so we dont really get any of this. I have attempted to watch TV with her, where we talk during commercials about the show. I really dislike TV for the most part, but am willing to watch some to interact with her. I always have KINDA an idea whats going on in her shows, and she seems to enjoy "catching me up" on whats been going on. However, I dont know if this is considered RC.

***Honesty and Openness - I am still not having a problem with honesty part, but the openness part I am still not sure about. I feel like if I told her some things I think and feel (like that I think she is being incredibly selfish by choosing to end our marraige rather than give it a serious try) then she would leave. I guess this shows a lack of faith in her and a lack of respect for her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner, but I guess I DONT respect her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner. I dont know how to fix this, I will need to work on this one somehow. I am still looking for ideas. This is one of the things, after our appointment on Monday, when I call Dr. Harley again, I am sure will get a lot of help on this.

Physical Attractiveness - She has said that she still thinks I am very attractive, just that she isnt attracted to me because of her "hate and resentment." Still, I have restarted my workout regimen, going at it for almost 3 weeks now and it is showing results already.

Financial Support - I think this one is fine in that I make enough for us at this time. She has a nicer house than she expected to have (even though she wants to leave it).

***Domestic Support - K, I am still doing good on this. She hasnt told me NOT to do her laundry when I have taken stuff out and folder, merely saying, "You dont have to do that." I respond with, "I want to do it for you, you do many things for me, I like the chance to do something for you."

***Family Commitment - I quit playing video games and reading recreational books, as well as quit most activities other than dealing with my son during the time I am home and he is awake. I am doing a lot of personal "self help" stuff to improve myself as a person (and therefore a father) as well as reading the "Parenting" magazines we get. I have asked her opinion on things to do with our son for development, asked her without prompting how doctors visits etc go, and taken a lot more effort to properly exercise and work on training our dog (Siberian Husky). I have NOT scheduled any recreational activities as a family. I must do better with this one. I have a couple days off next week. Maybe do it then.

***Admiration - She has stated that she hasnt ever felt appreciated for what she does. I have been making a point to say "Thank you" for everything. I also have been making a point of identifying when I feel proud of something she does, and being sure to tell her. "I am so proud of the work you did and all effort you made to raise that money for the March of Dimes." This has been helped my personal effort to see positives in things instead of always seeing the negatives. I am hoping this shows and allows me to be more pleasant.


LOVE BUSTERS

Selfish Demands - IOk, I didnt think this one was an issue. It is. Big time. I am very controlling, not in the blatant "do this now" but in the, if I am not in control I will be mean and manipulative and badgering until I get the control, and then I will be pleasant again. I am working on my trust issue and allowing other people control and being ok with it. So far, it hasnt shown a result in her that I can detect, but I can definately feel the beginnings of changes in me. I am much more comfortable. Not done yet, but better.

Disrespectful Judgements - K, both of us are terrible on this one. Either at the counselor on Monday or after we see him, I am going to talk to her and lay it out. "I am never going to intentionally do something that hurts you. If I hurt you, I would appreciate it if you would assume its not on purpose, and to please tell me so that I am allowed the opportunity to fix it or not repeat it." Today, I got a call, said "I will be outside" and stepped out the door. Apparently she couldnt see me around the corner in the back yard, yelled for me and called my phone (didnt ring), and when I came in, she said "Maybe now that you arent so busy wandering off you can help out and maybe change the baby's diaper." I said "ok" and she turned away rolling her eyes. I said "what was taht, why did you roll your eyes? are you mad about something?" She wouldnt say anything, so I told her I cant avoid making her mad if I dont know what I did, and I honestly dont know. So she told me and almost got very heated, but I said I thought she heard me, and I never left the fence area, I am sorry I didnt hear you, and you can check my phone, no missed calls, it didnt ring. I then changed the baby, came back and said, "I am sorry I didnt make sure you knew where I was before stepping out, I will do better next time." She said thank you, and seemed ok for a while.

Angry Outbursts - I have not had a single AO first, and can count on 1 hand the number of AO's I have had immediately following one of hers. This doesnt sound good enough to me. I HAVE apologized for every one of my AOs, and do not usually get any back, but I will keep doing better at this.

Annoying Habits - WOW!! I have a TON of these. Big and small things that she finds annoying. Unfortunately, most of what she gives me has been in the form of Traits so I have been spending a lot of time thinking these over and trying to identify specific habits associated with the perception, and working on them.
You are inconsiderate and rude - I have begun being more concious of my manners and the way I act towards people (still doing GREAT with this one)
You are annoying - I know a couple things that annoy her, as far as like, picking up after myself, making noises while eating, putting certain things in a certain place, folding her tacos a certain way, etc, that I am working on and trying to remember. (same with this one)
You dont listen - Still working hard on Listening Skills and realling hearing her. Hoping the MC can help with this one some.

Independant Behavior - I have been guilty of this. I used to go to work and then come home and that woudl be it, no calls, didnt even know when I would be home. I have begun calling after my workout (8am), lunch time, and right before I leave, to keep her updated. We arent allowed to bring our phones into work for security reasons, but I have made sure she has the work number. At this point, I feel like i have to do many things independantly since she seems to refuse to engage in them with me. I have been good about this so far, and have made it a point to include her in any decision I am making (except trivial ones ie - which gas station to get gas from)

Dishonesty - This one is a real pain since I definately agree that it includes openness and transparency. I am doing these changes for me, but I also want her to see the changes and choose to stay. However, I dont feel I can tell her this. This is one example of many things I dont feel like I can really share with her right now. I am not sure where to draw the line. It used to be that I would tell her basically everything I could think of. Still torn on this one...


I am trying to figure out a way for us to sit down and set up some ground rules for Negotiations. She has previously said that its something we should do. We still havent done this, though my abiding by the four rules of negotiation has done wonders to calm several incidents already.

I am also trying to figure out a way to get her to do a Telephone MC with Doc Harley. I dont want to trick her into it, but I also dont want this to end and feel like I didnt do EVERYTHING I POSSIBLY COULD to try to save it. I am still working on this and am hoping to have more to try after Mondays appointment. I am not sure how it will go, but I am almost decided on calling Dr Harley regardless how it goes.

I am also trying to continue gathering information on AH's, IB's and other LBs that I might not be aware of yet. Cant think of anything specific, though I DO need to start writing any that I can think of down.

I am also working on trying to really identify her top emotional needs. Havent gotten too far on this. The no UA time is really slowing me down. I wish we could "hang out" like we used to.

I think so far it is:

Family Commitment
Affection
Conversation (she talks to friends a LOT now, and we USED to talk CONSTANTLY!)
Domestic Support

I am not sure if these are really the most important ones for her, or if they are the ones she has said because they are not being met. Need to keep investigating and seeking hints.

BT,
I just got back from grocery shopping (late night, no one in the store to slow me down), and realized I had left my computer running. A few things pop into my mind:

How old are you and your wife? I missed that.

Why don't you just level with her and tell her you really don't know what is most important to her for you to do (just like that), and you know you do things that hurt her feelings, and you are trying to correct that, but you just don't know every time you do it, so would she please just let you know.

If she gets on board with this, and realizes she doesn't exactly know what she wants, the priority, or what jerks her chain, maybe she will buy into some guidance from the MB books or articles online. Maybe you show her the EN Questionnaire you filled out for her, and the Love Buster Questionnaire you filled out for her (but not your own). Then get her to correct it by filling one out herself.

Shopping in empty stores is a blast! Very fast.

26 (me)/ 24, married at 21/19

Leveled with her about that, that I want to do things better, am working on things, but would appreciate if she could help me out a bit with things. Right now, in withdrawal, she says she doesnt feel she needs to tell me these things since she is done already.

She has said "I was 19, I dont want or need the same things." We talked a lil about this, and she at one point said she didnt know what she needed.

I asked her about the ENQ as an idea to help either us or for anything in the future as a means to get to know ourselves better. She says I didnt need to do it since I am done.

I WILL show her the ENQ and LBQ and ask for corrections. Right now she seems to find every reason possible to stay away. That is a DJ since I didnt ask her, but, I fear that when I show her the ENQ / LBQ she is going to say something along the lines of "see you dont even know who I am." Since I now recognize this as a DJ, and because I honestly do want to change my habits, I will show her it anyway, open myself up and trust her, and see what happens.

I am trying to keep my body language from being defensive by focusing on the positives and hope, since it is always easy to hit someone who is already flinching. Figuratively. We dont hit eachother.

she watches Dr. Phil, so I also found this quote:

�Don't consider divorce until you've investigated every potential avenue of rehabilitation. You have to earn your way out of a marriage. Years of suffering does not mean you've been working on things. Unless and until you can look yourself in the mirror and know that you've tried everything there is and that you can walk out the door in peace and with no resentment, then you're not ready to be discussing divorce.


I know Dr. Phil isnt MB, and he doesnt agree with MB stuff all around, but some of his stuff does, especially the personal accountability. I especially liked this quote as another reference saying Divorce is NOT the answer when you still have problems, since you will just bring those same problems to your next relationship.

I am selfish for not wanting her to leave. She is a wonderful person, giving and caring mother. I also love her, and I dont want to see her hurt anymore which is what I fear will happen if she just leaves without giving it a try and resolving things. Thirdly, we have a 15month son and I sincerely believe the BEST thing for him would be a happy mom and dad, married, who know how to negotiate through things effectively where they both end up happy with the result, and still in love.



An interesting note on LISTENING SKILLS!
I read something in a book about practicing and it was saying its not fair to any human to make them talk at you while you practice listening. Turn on the tv to like, CSPAN or smethign where they talk for hours straight and force/train yourself to listen.

Every time your mind wanders, drag it back, pay attention to their body language and words, and really listen to them.

When you can listen to them for a half hour, than you should be ok to listen to people.

I am planning to do this, because I am a totally ROTTEN listener.

Same book said some characteristics of poor listening are: Planning your response before they finish, "Listening" for the briefest pause so you can interupt, Thinking about how much better you could say what the speaker is saying, or thinking about other things completely.

There were a couple more, but I do every one of those habitually. I am sure you can imagine what an LB it is.

Wow, HUGE day!

Mothers Day! Hope all you Mom's had a wonderful day!

I think my W did. She got a nice breakfast made for her, hung out with me and our son, and then he had to go down for a nap.

When he went down, she asked to talk. I used a lot of the things I have been reading in that Communication book as far as the way I interacted. I actually listened to her and let her get a lot off her chest. I wasnt PERFECT, but MUCH better, and she got to say a lot. She said she is done hurting and being hurt, she is still leaving and a bunch of other things, but in the end, she agreed that we need to work some things out and to communicate better if nothing else, than for our son. I told her I still loved her and am not going to give up on us or her happiness. She said she doesnt want our son to see us fighting and arguing. I told her I will never fight with her again. I will talk and negotiate with her, but I am done fighting, forever.

She actually smiled and said thank you.

Then she got her present that I had actually began the process of getting before she ever told me she was leaving. A locket with laser engraved pictures of her and our first son (who passed away the day after he was born) on one side and me and our second son on the other, and a message engraved in the back.

She smiled, almost started a happy cry, said she loved it, thank you, and gave me a hug.

It was a friend hug.

But a hug...

Now, we got our first counseling tomorrow. Its not an MB, its not one of the Harley's, she still doesnt like the idea of spending money on counseling when we can access a free one, since she says she isnt going to stay no matter what.

I think I get it, she is still hurting, I am in the red. Of course she doesnt want to stay. She also doesnt know how to say it, but I am listening now, and I hear her.

Today I deposited several units. Also, I think my biggest LBs were Selfish Demands, Independant Behavior, and probably DJ's, mostly in the way I used to talk to her and neglect her. I obviously havent been neglecting her, and I am getting better by the day at listening and really communicating.

Its not an MB counseling but I am hoping we can get a couple things out of it (to start):

1) Learn (both of us) to communicate better. We really need this. I am learning a lot on my own from books and stuff, but I can probably do a lot better with help. She also needs some help in this area, so this is a very good thing. We cant even talk without hurting eachother if we cant stay calm.

2) I am hoping a non-MC counselor can at least be an unbiased observer and help her see the things, if any, she can do to make herself happy, with me or anyone else in the future. Again, I would LOVE for her to stay with me, but even if she doesnt I want her to be happy, and she needs to continue to grow as a person and not trust someone else to do it for her.

3) Thirdly, I am hoping an MC can help her with resentment. She has a right to be angry with me. I dont want to see it ruin her life. Whether she moves on with me or without me, I hope she can resolve the anger and resentment, and move past it to really be happy.


I have also written her dad. I just said what I am doing, and what I have done. He can and probably will ask her for her side and give her whatever advice he thinks is best for her and our son. That is all I can ask for, and will be happy with whatever he tells her.

Ultimately, I am hoping MC + her dad can maybe get her to at least call Dr. Harley with me. I am hoping we can have many days like today where no LB withdrawals, and at least some EN deposits are made so maybe I can get to 0 and at least be given a shot. Earning her trust is going to be a long hard road, but I am ready for it. If I can get her on with Dr. Harley, than maybe the 3 of us can come up with a plan that respects her right to not be hurt, but also has a chance for us to work for us and our son.

Still hopeful...

Thank you all on the boards for your support and thoughts!

Wow... counseling on Monday.

He's not Dr Harley, but he made her feel comfortable.

He didnt pick sides.
He did a fantastic job cutting through BS and getting right to the point of things.
He isnt an MB Type, rebuild love MC, but he did not accept that she has "decided" to leave as a permanent and irrevocable decision and did NOT move to Divorce Counseling, which was a big fear I had.

He asked some great questions:
W said "he hurt me"
MC: What did he do?
W: Neglect, uncaring, not open, etc
MC: Hmm, that must hurt. It went on for a while?
W: Yes
MC: So you still moved down from ME to NC with him in Nov. So what happened since then?
W: IDK, it didnt get better. We stayed with a friend, 5 adults + 1yr old kid in a 3 bedroom place.
MC: Hmm, that must have been very stressful. Did something happen?
W: No, I just got tired of it. Of him not trying.
MC: But he's trying now?
W: Well, I guess, I dont know.
MC: I just want to say, for your own personal health and happiness, saying a thing like "I have decided I will never..." about almost anything can be a dangerous thing that closes you off from many possibilities. Decide, make decisions, but dont consider them irrevocable.

She thought about that a lot.

Also, he did a lot to help break her Wall down. I was not being allowed to fill any ENs since she was "uncomfortable" with me being nice to her. He asked her whats wrong with being nice? Even if he WAS doing it just to keep you around, why not just take it and be happy someone is being nice to you? You say you have made your decision, nothing he does has to change it, so why feel uncomfortable? You decided. That doesnt mean that if you sleep together, have sex, or do anything that you have to change your decision.

He also mentioned that when she is rude and disrespectful to me because she is uncomfortable with me doing something nice, that our son sees that and its maybe not the neatest example.

So he may not be the BEST counselor... but

today, we both woke up feeling like crap. I am getting sick, and she had a migraine. Two of our best friends who are dating broke up last night and I was a shoulder for them, so W and I talked about that. We were on the couch together, and she likes it when you run your fingers lightly along her skin as it makes her feel better, so I did that, and then after about an hour talking, I gave her a massage for about another 40 minutes.

So, about 2 hours of UA, Affection and Conversation deposits, both of which are huge for her AND -

She at one point said she was thinking about the whole just because we sleep in the same bed doesnt mean she has to change anything, and therefore maybe it would be ok. I told her, honestly, its what she is comfortable with.

I have to earn trust back, so I dont want to push things for her or anything. I have done enough telling her what she needs for the last 5 years. I need to let her be herself and decide for herself what she wants. I can make myself something very nice to keep around, but thats about it.

So far, so good.

Thanks again for all of you guys and your support. I know I am using this thread for a kind of "repository" to write stuff with many double triple or more posts. Thank you to you that leave advice and encouragement and all the rest that share this with me since I see the "read" count going up all the time.

Thanks for the update, BT, hang in there!

BT, just finished reading your thread after you posted on mine. Our situations have a remarkable amount of similarities, with the primary (unfortunate) difference being that my wife asked me to move out six weeks ago. We have three kids (5, 2 and 1), and we do spend some time together during the week, but I get virtually no UA time with her, so no chance to fill her LB or meet her ENs, and, as you saw, she is the one that brought me to this site so nothing I do flies below the radar.

I really appreciated Mark's post, and have read others from him over the past weeks. Once again, my struggle is what to do when my wife has all but given up, and we are living apart.

Combined with that, I was intrigued by Mark's statement that and EA exists if your spouse is getting EN's met elsewhere at all. Is that the case, Mark, or anyone for that matter, if numerous people as an amalgam, are combining to meet a person's ENs instead of their spouse?

Anyway, what I can tell you BT is that you've found the right place, and are getting great advice. Please keep your nose to the grindstone.

On that note, I do think you should be cautious about "traditional" MC. Dr. Harley has written on this at length, ( I can't find a link now, but will keep looking) and has said to be wary of a counselor who may want to delve too much into family backgrounds etc. It can turn into lots of sessions (and $$$) which may not get to the real issues.

I spent the money for an hour with Steve Harley, and it was worth more than the time my wife and I spent with our "traditional" MC who couldn't wrap her head around MB concepts.

HBS,

I think that any person who allows many people to meet their ENs is a walking affair waiting for the biggest deposits to be made into his or her love bank.

Since most people don't think of an affair except in terms of physical adultery, until they reach the point where they are at least considering that, they would in most cases deny an affair is actually happening. So people begin to use the "we're just friends" line and even convince themselves that nothing inappropriate is going on.

The problem with this results from the fact that if someone makes us happy consistently whenever we are with them, eventually the person themselves become a directed stimulus that causes us to have a directed response and that directed response is that we begin to feel those happy feelings whenever we even think about that person. This is what we call falling in love and is how Dr Harley says we fall in love with someone. This is the Love Bank model in its most basic form, if we are happy whenever we are with someone, and they never do anything to make us unhappy, then before long we are happy just being with them.

In reality, we become addicted to the feelings provided for us by that person. They provide the stimulus that causes us to have a pleasurable experience often enough that we begin to equate the pleasure with the person rather than the stimulus they provide. At that point, we feel all the symptoms of withdrawal whenever we do not get to be with that person including sadness, depression, irritability, fear of loss and all the rest that make breaking an addiction so difficult for most.

Also be aware that what begins as a group of people hanging out, going out drinking/dancing/socializing (even attending technical seminars and such) can place two people together into a setting where their ability to spend time with each other is not called into question, since a group is present. This does not diminish the risk of an EA and can actually make it more likely by allowing justification for the contact to continue long after it might otherwise be considered acceptable.

Many affairs begin with a group of people hanging out together in a bar after work. The whole group is always present and maybe even the whole group starts with what they consider good-natured flirting and teasing. Especially if the group includes single who begin to pair off at some point, a couple can carry on an affair for a long time without anyone even noticing that they have begun to spend extra time together or that they linger longer in their glances at one another etc.

Just because a group is involved does not preclude two members of the group from falling in love with each other even if the only contact is within context of the group as a whole.

And the real trouble comes from the fact that seldom do even the affair partners recognize that they are allowing themselves to fall in love with each other until one night when they get to be alone and the sparks seem to fly and they don;t know how they got there. People have affairs because they don't do anything to prevent having one. It is poor boundaries, plain and simple.

Mark [/tj]

Mark, I always appreciate your insights, and this most recent one has helped me make a bit of a paradigm shift in my thinking.

I don't believe my wife is having a PA, but she's not denied the existence/possibility of an EA. We live lives that would make such an EA with one man unlikely, but a "community" EA with friends, co-workers, members of her various business groups is certainly an option. I'd never thought if it that way, but the way you describe it, it seems no less dangerous, especially given our current situation.

I don't want to hijack BT's thread, but any advice you can give me on my current situation would be welcomed. (my thread here) http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2355419#Post2355419

Welcome to "my" thread, no worries, love hearing from you guys.

Not much new today, odd work day, in at 7:30, home by 10am, then had to leave at 3pm till 7:30pm. Still got to help entertain our boy and since she had a migraine still today, that is always nice to be able to do for her.

Helped her with some resume service questions to help her find a job. She has become much more motivated about getting a job since she decided she wanted to leave, but even if she stays, I do believe she needs to have something besides just sitting in this house with our son, waiting for me to come home. I dont think it has to be a job, it could be 2 days a week volunteering, or yoga sessions or whatever, just to get her out with some other people to do something that belongs to her that she can CHOOSE to share with me rather than what she has where she is in the house and basically has nothing.

She has said that she in part wants to leave because she never "made it" on her own, we got married when she was 19, and she wants to have that. She doesnt want to be dependant on me.

I know, obviously, that in theory she doesnt have to leave me to achieve that, but she needs to learn and see that for herself I think.

Oh yeah... and the counselor we are seeing right now is free. So its not a $$$ thing at all. Its free for me anyway, my insurance doesnt even pay. Part of being prior active duty.

K, another long day of work tomorrow.

My phone broke, so havent been able to call anyone and chat.

Feeling very down, and kinda, IDK, that feeling about an hour after you have been slammed in the privates, where your stomach is sick.

Nothing REALLY bad happened today. At dinner, she made a comment about going for a walk, and how she USED to leave phone in the car but now she cant since SOMEone freaks out.

This is about a time a couple weeks ago when she went out, I thought she was just going to her appointment and coming back, so about 2 hours after I thought she would be back, I called one of her friends to have them try call her, with pictures of her laying raped and stabbed in a gutter running through my head. I realized this was unlikely, but at the time I figured better safe then sorry.

Anyway, she referenced that, so I asked, calmly, are you mad at me for that?

She said, 'Its just rediculous, I told you 3, probably more times I was going out.' This happens a lot. She says "why didnt you X?" I say I didnt know you wanted me to. She says, "I said it 4 times." I have some documented service related hearing loss, and I know I struggle to hear her at times, but I guess I just dont get it.

So, in response at the dinner table, I said "I sure hope we can work that part of communication out, because it seems to happen alot where you tell me things 3 times, and I just dont hear you."

Her, "Yeah it would be nice to have a husband that actually LISTENS to me."

I honestly have no idea why this happens. Things it COULD be:
1) She is lying and doesnt actually say things
2) She says things, I cant understand her, so I ask, and she yells at me "If I am talking to you I will make sure you hear me." So then other times, if I dont understand, I hesitate to ask if she was talking to me or herself.
3) I just dont hear her maybe?

So, 1 is unlikely. She might be exagerating where "4 times" is really once, but still, she is probably telling me. Two might be part of it. I am coming to realize that the way she makes "requests" or responds can often times be called verbal abuse, so when I am told "I will make sure you hear me" I really do hesitate to ask for clarification. This could be fixed if we can enforce some sort of rules of negotiation / communication where we both feel safe. And of course it could be 3, but that could be fixed by effective communication, which includes asking for confirmation after saying something. Not just saying "grab the cup while youre out there" and assuming the message was recieved. I know I maybe 50% of the time dont acknowledge when I heard something, so thats something I can work on.

There, this post was a success. I learned one more thing I can work on.

I feel a bit better now.

God it hurts so bad when she makes comments about the "coming divorce" and splitting up our possessions, or not caring where something is set up in the house since "I wont be here soon anyway."

Ouch...

Another MC appointment on Tues.

I cant seem to think a thought that isnt loaded with DJs:

My wife doesnt want to try.

She is trying to hurt me.

She makes no effort to be pleasant.

She purposefully does AO's to hurt me.

She says "I dont want to talk in front of our son, because we will just argue and fight" so that she can justify not resolving issues.

She makes comments like, "I guess it doesnt matter where you put it to me since I wont be here soon enough anyway."

She says, when I asked, that she doesnt do things to hurt me on purpose, and is in fact lying.

She is a selfish person who doesnt think of anyone but herself in the decisions she makes.

She doesnt care about how what she is doing hurts our son.

She is unwilling to take personal responsibility for her actions, her happiness, and her future. She wants everything bad the last few years to be my fault, and when she leaves me it will all be better.

She doesnt want to see MB / MC type stuff I find in research because it shows her how selfish she is being and makes her feel bad.

She doesnt like me being nice or helping because it makes her feel bad for being so mean and spiteful with her acidic hurtful comments.

She doesnt want to learn to resolve conflicts in a way that leaves us both happy, because then she will be "proved wrong" in her decision to leave.

She is only keeping this decision because than she "proves" to everyone how capable and independant she is, when in reality, the ONLY PERSON in her life that doubts her capabilities is herself.






OK... I dont really believe all these things. They are hurtful things I would say in an AO. I know there is truth buried in the DJs, but I havent figured out how to pick it out and present it in a respectful complaint, that abides by the principles of POJA. Basically, I dont know how to say that your actions hurt me, lets figure out a better way we can both enjoy.

(reposted this in a new thread, since I may need it moved to another section, not sure yet)

Ok, so I went through cell phone records tonight. My phone is broke, so was checking on their site for info, and figured I check out usage since I was there.

Here is a break down of my Ws usage. There is the OM, and a few other people for comparison. This OM is a guy I work with, we lived with him for about 4-5 months and is considered a friend, he is 50 something years old.

May 4rd to today:
901 mins / 15hrs with OM
24 mins with her mom
129 mins with everyone else

Apr 4rd to May 3rd:
3534 mins / 58.9hrs with OM


Mar 4th to Apr 3rd:
1133 mins / 18.8 hrs with OM
61 mins with her Mom
149 with me


Feb 4th to Mar 3rd:
6 mins with OM (we lived in same place as him through this month)
140 mins with me

I am glad you moved your thread BT.

Is this OM married too?

Ok, finished with the non-MB MC appointment today. Next appointment is on Friday.

Our MC pointed out that we have been doing a "1 up, 1 down" relationship, and that its not healthy for either of us. For me, I am currently acting in the "down" and he suggests I not do that, and for her, being abusive and angry, that being 1 up, is not healthy for her either, and we should both stop, not just for our marraige but for any future relationships.

Basically, hes saying "giver and taker doesnt work, you need POJA" but not using those terms, and didnt actually give a plan.

I am kinda disappointed. I agree that I need to not be a doormat, but he basically said "dont stand for it." Well, just saying "F* you Im not gonna take that" we arent building a relationship. I would have hoped for not just the "dont settle for anything, dont allow one of you to gain at the others expense" but also a "heres how to do it." Thats where I think Harley's are probably much better, because they focus on action and plans. Explaining that one of us giving in to the other isnt a good way to solve problems can take about 5 mins. Explaining and holding us accountable for how to STOP doing it is what I would pay for.

I recognize that we cant "give away the farm" but we STILL dont have any real help in how to talk to eachother without both trying to take something.

I am trying. It is very very difficult because I feel like if I stop pulling, she jerks me over because she doesnt stop pulling.

Things like "Im sick of you, Im leaving for a few hours," and then leaves me here, with our son. I love taking care of him, but I am not ok with her assuming she can just do whatever she wants and I will be here.

I told her after counseling about the minutes on the phone. I told her I dont appreciate it and am hurt by it since it shows that before she ever told me she was leaving, before ever trying to talk to ME, she went and talked to someone else. No matter what it was about or who it was with, I told her I dont have any problems with her having friends, I have problems with her not talking to me.

She says she doesnt care she wants to leave.

Ok, I guess fine... I cant make her stay.

But I wont be a doormat. I will not fight with her. I will not do AOs, and I will try avoid DJs, IB, SDs, and I will be honest. I give her all the notes I take about stuff and whatever.

I am not done. I want to be married to her, I want us to be happy, and for our son to be happy, and for me to be happy. I recognize now that that is impossible if I try to do everything to please her. I should have seen it earlier, you guys have told me, but I am slow. I see it now. She was the Giver for years, and I was Taker, now the rolls have been reversed, but I recognize that me Giving isnt going to satisfy her or me.

I just dont know what to do different now.

She was kinda upset at the MC today. I am curious about if maybe she would be more open to an SH call. I have no idea how to bring it up. She doesnt even want to be around me right now.

I am also very upset that she talks about our house, our money, our son, but its her car, and her phone, and her time. Even if she doesnt WANT me to be the one fulfilling her Financial Security, she is allowing me to do it. She likes being able to leave our son with me and count on me for Family Commitment, so she can take "her car" and go out and have fun and ignore us and her problems and meet her needs with other people, but as soon as I want to talk or work something out, oh doesnt have the time for us.



Some excerpts:

M: I went through the phone usage, and discovered you spent over 50 hours last month on the phone with Tim. I feel hurt and betrayed by this.

W: Why?

M: Because it has been going since before you said there were problems, so I interpret it as you deciding to, instead of talk to ME and work on US, ignoring it, go talk to a friend and let them make you smile.

W: You cant make me feel bad for having friends. Just cuz I found someone who would make me smile when you made me cry, told me thank you when you didnt, or made jokes when I was sad doesnt mean I did anything wrong. Hes just a friend. What right do you have to tell me I dont get to have friends.

M: I dont have a problem with you having friends. I have a problem with you ignoring us in favor of friends.

Apparently, she called OM shortly after she left.

He just came over to talk. Basically, he wanted to reassure me they were just friends. They talk, they share experiences, just friends.

I said its fine. That to me it wouldnt matter if it was him or one of the other females we lived with. To me, the reason I told her I was upset about it was because she chose to not talk to me, to not work things out with me, and instead tried to be happy somewhere else.

Basically ended on, well, ok then. He said he doesnt want to be in the middle, but he tries, when she's saying things sometimes to, to try show her where she is maybe going about it wrong.

IDK.

I guess I read here that opposite sex friends are no-go. I am sure they are right, but I ahvent learned it and really assimilated it yet. I guess its more that to me, an EA is just as bad as a PA, and so therefore, the EA can be had with anything that you choose to place at a higher level of importance than your spouse and marraige.

I consider my video game problem to have been an EA, just as bad as her and her OM Friend. Neither is ok, but its not "not ok" BECAUSE he is a guy, its not OK because its an EA.

I dont know if that makes sense.

I need help I guess.

He has been married I think 23 years (?) and is about to go through a divorce as well. I have only heard his side through what my W tells me, but she sounds kinda nuts. Of course I am sure there are 2 sides, so I dont really judge.

I hope that answers it.

BT i am sorry to tell you but waywards will lie, lie, and lie some more.

I believe that your wife is at least in an emotional affair with this man and if i were you i would expose all of this contact to the OMs wife and she if she KNOWS about all the texts they have and the time they are spending talking to one another.

If they are just friends then you would have known about them texting each other all along and would not have had to snoop to find it out.

Also ask your wife to let you see the texts, if they are truly just friends and it is all innocent then there should not be a problem with you reading them (i bet she will say something about you dipping into her privacy or something along those lines).

Please read all you can on this site about affairs and Plan A and Plan B and EN's and everything and keep posting.

Also now that you have "told them" so to speak of your thoughts, they will probably go into hiding and make you look like a crazy man.

Do not worry it is pretty much the satndard script for a wayward.

BT-What your WW and OM are doing is called gaslighting. I also talked to OW and she assured me that they were "just friends." I installed a keylogger and found out much differently. It is normal for OP to try to talk BS out of exposing them. EXPOSE. DO NOT WARN ABOUT IT, JUST DO IT.

Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor.

BT, let me ask you a question. And I'm serious.

Why did you marry a female? Why not marry a male? Why did it matter?

Please answer - this is neither a joke nor sarcasm.

I kinda paraphrased frmo what I told him. To clarify, I said, I dont care if she has friends. The way she ignored me and talked to anyone other than me, and relied on anyone other than me to meet her needs, rather than INFORM ME of our problems and attempt to work them out is why I feel betrayed and upset. Its not that hes a man.

As far as I am concerned, its cheating already, because she values someone else more than me. The physical act is just a bland, mediocre icing on an already ruined cake.

I dont know, maybe I am messed up and just havent had anyone have a PA on me and therefore have no idea how much worse it could be.

I dont know, at this point it feels like its already an Affair, regardless of physical or not. I am already hurt. Its like having your leg amputated at the knee or the thigh. Either way you dont have a leg, so its not really relevant.


Why I married a woman and not a male: I need SF from a female. A male wouldnt do it for me. God made her part specifically for making mine feel great, and God does some pratty darn good work.

BT: Okay, so you do know the difference between males and females. Do you think the OM does not? Do you believe he thinks your wife is a male and so he will just treat her like one of the guys and you don't have to worry about them having sex?

Do you realize that "She's Just One of the Guys" is something that BWs hear *all the time*??

You are bending your brain into a king-sized pretzel trying to convince yourself that an EA isn't sexual. BT, an EA is just PRE-sexual. It's not a "friendship" because if it was, there would be no reason to hide it from you or exclude you from it.

And yes this IS relevant because the early stages of an EA are like warning sirens that should make any BS get off their backside and Do Something about it (like expose).

Sitting back and trying to convince yourself that it's okay, OM is just treating MY WIFE like she's one of the guys is just going to cause you nothing but agony while he moves in and takes over because he knows you will do nothing.

And if the b*st*ard ever comes to your house again - !!!!

She IS in an affair and the only one who has a chance of stopping it is you.

She did try to say something about going through her phone record and violating privacy.

I said its not private, and if you arent doing anything wrong, what is there to be defensive or upset about?

She got real thoughtful, and seemed convinced and said, hmm, ok I guess.

Its things like this that make me pretty sure it is an EA, and she naively just doesnt understand what it could turn into. That she really believes they are "just friends," and hell, the OM very well might too, but they are down the road already and could so easily wake up and say, "what have we done?"

I dont understand this gas lighting thing. Sorry.

I have read all of Infidelity, it was the last section of the site for me, so have read all of the Basic Concepts and QnA articles. I have read and still have HNHN and check parts of that.

I dont know what to do.

Plan A involves meeting the needs and showing how much "better" home is while setting boundaries. She already was and is so far in withdrawal that I am barely allowed to meet needs.

Plan B is removing yourself so that the cut is felt. I dont know if it would be felt, again, as she is so far in withdrawal that she might not care what I felt.

We talked today after she came back home.

We spoke of communication and disrespect. I explained that when she says I could never make her happy, she is saying I am unable to be good enough. It is not possible. She is also saying that I am responsible for our divorce, since she cant help that I am incapable of not being good enough.

However, when she says, as she occasionally has, I MIGHT be able to change, but she doesnt want to wait around, or that she doesnt trust it to be "real" and lasting, then that is different, in that she is owning her part of the decision and not making a disrespectful judgement on what I am capable of.

She said she would have to think about that.

She also had stated that she was sexually frustrated for years, but I didnt know this until a couple weeks ago. I occasionally thought maybe there was an issue, and had asked her if we were good and everything was ok, and she always said, yes we are great, until 2 weeks ago. We talked about this again today and a few other similar things. We talked about how easy it would have been when these things were new problems for them to have resolved and we both agreed that it would have been better if we had settled them before.

I said our marraige is like a beautiful flower, that we have been allowing these little pieces of trash to land on it, until now we just have a big pile of trash that seems too big to move. But every time we get close to it, and pick out one piece of trash, we both recognize how "silly" it is and how easy it could be to resolve it.

She was giving positive reactions and participating and owning this whole last paragraph right up to the end, when I said something about how "you say you dont trust me right now because of the past, the history, well in the same vein, every issue we have stopped to look at has been something that we could easily resolve, which makes me doubt that there really is anything in the whole trash pile we couldnt fix if we just took it piece by piece."

She didnt shut off or anything, she just got that thoughtful look again.

BT,

I am so sorry you are here. I hate to be the first to tell you, but I don't think she is taking those evening drives to a meadow, or the beach or whatever it is alone.

I am sorry but it is almost certain she and the OM are having sex and that is why she doesnt want to with you. It is also why she doesn't want you doing her laundry I am afraid...

He "says" he is getting a divorce huh? I wonder if his wife knows. Your wife is caught up in the fantasy of dumping you, he gets a divorce, and they move in together with your kids.

anything and everything she says now is to manipulate you to help her achieve that outcome. The "gaslighting" is the lying and manipulation they are both involved in.

Save your evidence in a safe place. Come up with a plan to expose this affair to anyone and everyone, particularly those who could have an influence on your WW.

The OM's wife is the first target. It may be interesting to hear her take on it as she may be unaware that he was cheating at all and didn't know about a Divorce at all.

Exposure is like shining the light of truth on an ugly secret and is the only real effective way to bust up the affair. Until she is cleared from her addiction to the OM she will not let you meet any emotional needs, she will spew wayward crap and have no interest whatsoever in reconciling with you. Exposure is not something you threaten, she will pre-emptively spin you into a lunatic that is a control freak. You do it nuclear style to everyone all at once. More will come on here to give you tips.

It sounds to me like the timeframe you lived with these people was not as stressful for her as she says, because it was during this time she probably fell in love with him and they started the affair.

SWW

Oh,

And I wouldn't put any stock in those "thoughful looks" or her willingness to let you look through her phone or whatever.

She is a falling down lying wayward drunk that will do anything to meet up with him no matter what.

If that means showing the occasional sign that she is "thinking about" working on the marriage but needs some "alone time" to think...that means she is going off to hook up with the OM and is manipulating you into thinking if you only just back off she will come around on her own and start to wake up. Not gonna happen.

Most of us have been in your shoes and know the panic you are in right now. It was the worst thing that has ever happened to me in my life and I think many would echo that sentiment.

We are all here for you.

SWW

MB thread explaining gaslighting:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=146375&Number=1954184#Post1954184

BT, your WW and her OM are *both* gaslighting you. I hope you will take a look at this thread.

Read the thread. Cant click the links, says "Link Not Found" or some such internet error, sorry.

Ok, so I still cannot really believe they are having a PA. I will keep teasing the idea, but regardless, as I said, the 60hrs in 1 month on the phone with someone before you have even told your husband there was a serious problem and you were seeking a divorce is at the least an EA.

Exposure is the next thing. I have told 1 of my closest personal friends about all this, and they were floored at the time spent on the phone. Not just with the OM, but how LITTLE was spent with anyone else. I am sure the same reaction would happen to anyone I showed this too.

I want to show this to 4 people.

Her dad, her mom, her brother, and her best friend from back in CA.

Maybe more, like her uncle and stuff, IDK. IDK how far to take it.

I dont want to accuse W of a PA, because I have no evidence. I also dont think I need to, since every sane person will say the evidence I have already of the EA is bad enough.

I dont know what I really expect from these people. For them to tell her she is wrong? Is that it? What do I tell them? Do I tell them she is having an EA and show the evidence? Do I also tell them she has stated she will not try to make our M work? Do I tell them she has said she will only go to counseling so she can say she did it, that she picked out a house for us in the place she wanted and waited till about 5 days after we closed to say she was going to seek a divorce? Do I tell them about her verbal abuse? Do I tell them how I neglected her?

I DONT want to force our problems on other people, but I also feel that if we lived anywhere else, either near her friends or mine, that this would be a much more different situation. The phone records show how little she talks to anyone BUT the OM, including her old friends and family.

I really dont think most of them even know she is planning to get a divorce. I think she is able to perpetuate her fantasy because there is no one around to tell her to wake up.

She has said things like last time we went to my home on vacation that even my friends noticed what a POS husband and father I was. I feel I havent been a very good husband, but I have been asking my family and friends, and NONE of them have said they ever thought I wasnt a great husband or father. Maybe incidences where they thought I was rude or thoughtless, but over all, very good. I think if we were living near and interacting often with her friends or mine or our familys', we would have people to say, "look, you need to appreciate what you have, take responsibility for your actions, and stop being such a child."

So I guess I am looking for thoughts on that.

Oh, and do I do letter or email or doesnt matter? And do I send the "proof" in our phone records or what would you suggest there?

I would tell them that at the very least she is deeply involved in an emotional affair and it is destroying your marriage. Tell them you have evidence if they don't believe you, but that you are trying to save your marriage and ask for their help. Short and sweet.

Expose to anyone that can have an influnce on her and him. That definitely means OM's wife.

BT I hope i am wrong, but i just can't see your WW disappearing all the time at night to go for these drives alone and not hooking up with the OM.

Add the fact that she wants to divorce and it's all your fault etc. etc. and the thought of sex with you is repugnant really makes me think things are farther along. You do need to keep snooping for more evidence though as well.


Read up on what Dr. Harley says about exposure, how it's done and why it is necessary.

SWW

Ok, so, the initial conversation about the phone record, right after our MC oppointment, didnt go so well, but it ended good (IMO). After that, I went to work, got home at midnight, passed out on couch exhausted with contacts in, right eye is all pink and hurting, just got off work (7am - 9pm) but I get tomorrow off. Friday is another MC appointment.

Today, I didnt really get to talk to her much, but I called her at lunch, said hi, how are things, everythings ok? I do want to know that everything is ok, but I also am demonstrating that I think about her and she and our son are important to me.

She folded my clothes and made dinner for me so I am eating that now. I called her on the way home, since it was a lil before her bed time, and thanked her for the things she does and told her how nice it is to have her help.

Next week, Mon - Friday, I am on a trip litterally across the country. I am in NC, traveling to WA. When I get back, she is going on a camping trip with her cousin.

One thing that is good about this OM being someone I work with, there are many times I can be certain that nothing is going on in that instant, since well, he is at work with me. He is going to a training school during the same week I will be gone. It doesnt stop the phone calls I guess.

W also told me the other day, she met "someone" at a park she took our son too. She told me because she said one night "you have to clean up dinner because I wont be here." Why? "Im going to meet a friend I met at the park yesterday."

She wouldnt tell me even if it was a boy or girl. However, she got a call around than, and thats one of the reasons I thought of checking the phone log while I was on the site anyway, to maybe see if there was a new number on there.

There wasnt, just 4-5 calls to the current OM around the time before and after she left. Then, yesterday, she let slip that the new friend was a guy (said "he" in reference to the friend, despite her being obviously careful of pronoun use since she first told me, obvioualy a slip eventually was inevitable). Anyway, I am not even sure there IS a "new" friend, since right before she left is a couple incoming calls from the current OM, and then a couple longer calls while she was gone.

Why call OM when you are hanging out with a "new friend."

So, no concrete proof of dishonesty yet, but it makes me wonder.

I do not want to catch her in a lie. I want us to be happy and married. However, if she is lying to me, I would REALLY like to catch her once, since I can then expose that.

SWW, thank you for your last post especially about what to "expose." I dont really have anything right besides the phone records and my "side" of the story, and I dont want to do anything like try to skew it just to make her look bad.

I want to expose everything to people, even including the fact that I havent been perfect. I would like to emphasize that I WANT to make things better. I dont want her friends to tell her anything that they dont honestly believe. If her mother thinks she should leave me, than I want her mother to tell her that.

I may not be right. Even if I AM "right," that doesnt mean anyone has to do what I say or anything. W keeps saying "you arent going to change my mind." I keep telling her I dont WANT to change her mind. I CANT change her mind. Only she can. She has said, in many different ways, that she has felt forced to do many things in whatever fashion, like I have prevented her from being happy.

I would LOVE for her to realize that her happiness is HER responsibility, whether anyone else works to support it or not, and that NO ONE will MAKE her happy. Whether she stays with me or goes elsewhere, it is something she will have to learn if she wants anything better. I want to be a wonderful husband that provides a safe haven of love, that meets her needs and that she can trust, but even if I do all those things, it wont make her happy unless she chooses to be happy.

BT...you are in serious denial.

When you leave for your trip, OM will be keeping your side of the bed warm for you.

Get yourself a VAR and put it under the bed. Or a hidden camera if you've got the stomach.

God, this hurts to watch.

BT-

Really glad the conversation ended well, especially when it didn't start well. If you think about it, that is some progress. We all know how to do start poor, end poor. We all got that one down.

I was thinking about the OM issue you have. People are different even though we may all have some of the same needs and feelings that drive some of the same behavior.

I get the exposure part for PAs. I don't really agree with the length to which some take it but that is there decision. On EAs I think it is a finer line to walk. We all get our needs met by every interaction we have, even posts on forums like this. My H has taken things to a level where I am not in a PA, or an EA with any OM, but now it is that I am getting my needs met by the combind group of all people in my life. And yes, that is true when you think needs are just that, needs. But I think too that rushing to an exposure can do more damage than good when it is less clear.

I do however agree that it is not good long term for her to have this OM or NF as a primary person meeting her ENs when they are males. Exposure of an EA is a way of not stepping up your attempts at meeting her ENs but a way of trying to force her out of her way. If she is new to her EA, she won't even agree with you that she is having an EA, and it could push her closer to either OM or NF. Gives them all something to talk about, and agree with, bond on, that she an EA is not happening.

I think her EA is very early so think before you jump to exposure. Maybe for a short time period try more of you instead.

So your W has the need to talk and she is getting that from OM and maybe "new friend". You are talking to her and that is great. I don't know if it be helpful if you increased the amount of the time you talk...about anything...aslong as you are talking to her. She can't be talking to OM or "new friend" (NF).

I also like that you agree that you can't change her mind and you tell her. It sounds like she saysthis often so this is a key to her thinking and when we repeat things, it is because they are important. When we listen to what othes say, we hear the unspoken.

She may be saying those things because she wants to be heard, and you do that by hearing her and confirming what you heard with honesty. I also like that you follow up with your honest feelings no matter how vulnerable that makes you. Keep it about you. You don't want to change her mind, you want to change yourself and your home life and how you interact with others. And yes, you'd love if after doing so, she decided then that you could be a H she would want to be with.

Maybe make it about making a decision (enpower her) and not changing her mind (she was wrong). Because maybe for her, she needs to know that if she decided to come back, and she "changed her mind", she didn't change her mind about how things were and that they were crappy for her (and I am sure for you but we are talking about her). And you aren't asking her to change her mind about how she views those times because those times are past.

Also was thinking, I know MB says 15 hours of UA without kids. I had read other posts saying your time with W and child is not UA. But when she won't give you that, I believe positive time is better than no time. If she is spending time with you, she can't spend it with OM or NF. A child can and is that tie that binds. And no one loses if you can sopend time with F by spending it together as a family. Maybe think of some fun things to do with son and W that you can suggest, away, out of the home. I don't think doing it with anyone else would be helpful, but she will get something from every interaction with you even if it is for right now as a family.

Be there. Be open and honest with her. If you can't get UA, get some time. Be consistent and predictable. Respect that what she feels is what she feels, even if it is just right now.

It's a hard road but you walk with a purpose and it is clear.

BT i do not mean to sound nasty, but please read Chrisner's Guys Come On thread.....

I really think you need to heed the advice you have received about snooping further and exposure.

I agree with MaiMai that you are in denial and that your wife is in this way further than you think.

Please do not stand back and just let it happen.

Way to enable the enabler, LorG!

God's Blessings,

Say

Well, I dont know guys. I am of 2 minds.

If LorG is right, and its just friends, and I go nuts on exposure and accuse her of all kinds of things to her family and friends, I agree it would push her away. She already calls me controlling.

But if you guys are right and she is hoodwinking me, then exposure is a must.

No one will be warming my side of the bed, since it hasnt been my bed since mid-April, but I get the point. I really cant believe a PA is going on, especially that it could go on in my house, but you know what, maybe.

I think a lot of people on here have been hurt really bad, but that deosnt mean I should discount the advice.

I think I will get th VAR and put it in her room.

I have been thinking a lot.

I was the crying, clingy, please stay, emotional basket case, always bringing up the relationship for about a month. Then I was what she calls the "hovering puppy" until the present. She says I try to do things to "make her happy," and she doesnt like it, but when she tells me to stop I get "all butthurt."

Thinking about it, and what our MC said, I think I ahve realized something. My W makes me happy. Doing things for her makes me happy. Our marraige didnt always make me happy, but I didnt know what to do, and now that I have a source of info, I know it COULD make us both very happy. However, a positive thing that is going to come out of this no matter what is, I dont need to be hurt by the things she does. That is something that I give her.

Our MC told us we should stop working on the marraige and work on ourselves first. That we were trapped having one person getting what they want, and the other not. That we should focus on being "self-actualizing."

Pissed me off. I agree that he is right about us working on ourselves, but I DO believe we could do that together.

Regardless, I do need to not be the groveling guy, since its usually just the way I try to manipulate someone into doing what I want (get her to stay.)

Reading Neaks and NPs threads showed me what a good Plan A should look like.

I would like to make a Plan A. I have friends from back home moving down here (in the USMC now so he getting stationed here) so that will help with support. They know now what is going on. I felt I had to tell them at least since they were going to stay with us for a few days.

A huge thing is that in the military, we moved all the time, so W has no friends in the area besides OM. Even her old Cali friends all have kids and stuff and dont have much time. Her Dad not having a phone last 4 months has left her really with no one to talk to. She has been allowed to think of all these things and not really bounce them off anyone.

So.

This weekend, before I leave I will get a VAR and put it under the bed. Maybe a second to put in the couch. That will cover my snooping. Since OM is the only real danger, he doesnt have an email or a computer, and they freely talk on phone / visit in person. Even if they arent doing anything physical, it could confirm that.

Next week, while I am gone, I want to spend a lot of time on here. I want to really develop a Plan A, start a Plan B (just in case), and prepare and Exposure Letter. Even if its "just" an EA where they arent doing anything, I know she has not really told anyone anything, except a short conversation with her dad where she told him she was leaving.

He told her she should work on it. She said she has, and shes done. He just said, well it sounds like you thought about it, so I dont know.

Other than that, it doesnt seem like she has told any of her friends or family. She has made comments to me about how "once everyone finds out" she is upset that they are probably gonna think she is crazy since I "seem like such a great guy" and how its going to "suck for" her that none of them really know how terrible I am. I think she knows that most of her friends and family, even if she can convince them that I am horrible, are going to ask "well have you told him?" "Is he willing to work on it?" "well then you need to give it a try for your sons sake." and she doesnt want that.

So thats it, I dont know if that is a "good reason" to spray our "personal business" to our family and friends, or if I am just selfishly throwing a fit since I am not getting what I want.

I told her I dont "do divorce" and that I still want to work on this marraige and on me. She says she doesnt care, she is done.

So I wonder if I can write an "exposure letter" to friends and family just basically says something about:

We are having problems, and in Fall 09, agreed to work on them once we "got settled in."
W has suddenly, unilaterally, decided to leave in the near future, stating no chance of working on anything.
I still want to try, and have been.

I want it to read in a manner that shows that I am taking full responsibility for my failings, that I dont think she is being a bad person, that I think she is hurt and protecting herself as best she can, and that I am willing to do nearly anything to make this work.

The goal would be to convey the gist of whats going on, and allow her friends and family a chance to say what they want to her.

I dont know, what do you guys think? Obviously if the VARs reveal a full blown PA, then its a whole new game, but if its "just" a naive EA, IDK, thoughts?

@ StillCrazy - thank you so much for that recommendation.

It is something I have been toying with.

Ok, I still dont know of a PA, and not much evidence (to me) says there IS one. I read in Neaks thread "I realized I didnt need the proof, I just needed to know."

Well, I dont know. I know I wont need enough proof for a court, but I really dont know yet about a PA.

But I am going to fight for our marraige.

I fear starting my fight, and confirming any thought that I am the controlling domineering husband that never let her do anything, that she has described me as.

In reality, she has basically aquiesced to anything I wanted without complaining since we have been married. On my part, I didnt really pay attention enough to note the signs that she wasnt happy with decisions, and I didnt seek POJA. I didnt even know what POJA was. So now she is at a point where she says "I dont need to do what you want, I can make myself happy," total 180. I think the 180 came because she thinks it will be easier to just give up on us, blame me, and not have to take responsibility for her side of the fence.

I want to fight, for her, us, and our son, but in a way that allows her to come back.

I dont know what to do.

My previous post includes the beginnings of a "plan." How do they look for now?

It is very hard to find time on here when I am watchign the kid so she can go out for the day with OM.

Here are my balls.

Man I have messed so much up...

OK, BT, I'm looking for the plan here and frankly I don;t see it. I see some attempts to discuss a plan and a bit about which kinds of plans you might try, but you need a PLAN that gives you things that you will do and things that you will work at and goals to set and a time line for how long you will continue.

You snooping plan might be a real step in finding out the truth, but remember that even "just" an EA can devastate a marriage. That is true even for one that in which the affairees have stated their love for each other, declared the relationship to be off limits as long as either is married and committed to not crossing some imaginary "line" that they themselves have defined, which usually indicates having repeated sexual rendezvous. They'll discuss the current marriage and its problems, what each thinks is the ideal relationship (usually feeding each other enough baloney to feed the First Cav) and create a fantasy relationship they can share together that isn't based on anything either of them actually knows to be true.

In your snooping, be sure to listen carefully for signs of that kind of activity...

One more word about an affair in general here; it is an addiction. As such it can be identified in part by the willingness of the addict to give it up. People who are "just" friends don't need the qualifier for the word friend. "Just" implies justification and a right to maintain that friendship even at the risk of losing a marriage or other legitimate relationship.

What are her top Emotional Needs?
What can you do to specifically meet any or all of those needs?
What Love Busters do you still struggle with?
How do you plan to do away with them?

What things can you do to default into being with her enough to actually meet her ENs?
How can you show her affection and that you care for her without telling her or trying to make points?

What expectations do you struggle with that get in your way of acting directly to address her ENs and get rid of love busters from your own life?

How can you demonstrate to her that you can be the man she has longed for and has dreamed about her entire life?

What ways do you make too easy for her to walk away from you and not easy enough to work with you on restoring the marriage and making it better than it was before?

This is a PLAN, BT. You lay out objectives, goals, benchmarks, and details of how to accomplish each one. Then you begin to act instead of reacting to what she does. You fix yourself, make yourself more valuable to her than even a fantasy man of her imagination. You be the husband she wants, desires and needs so that she will want you, desire you and need you in her life.

Why did she fall in love with you before? BE THAT GUY NOW!

Don't talk about it. Don't think about it. Don't argue about it. Do it and be it...

Is only do or do not...

Is no try...

Is no wondering...

Is no considering...

Is no contemplation...

Is no might be or might not be...

Mark

I just realized, a VAR wont "catch" them while I am gone, since OM is going out of town on training too. I can verify it because its for our work, and if he doesnt go, everyone will know, and its in AZ (we are in NC).

But I guess it could catch the phone convo's.

However, at this point I start to feel a little dirty. Help me out with this.

I feel like "spying" is being untrusting. Especially when I dont really think there is a PA, and this activity is mostly to confirm that there isnt one (at least in range of the VAR's...).

I feel dirty because I DO trust her still.

She has been "sucking it up" for at least 3 years. We have a family decision, she would say what she wants, I would say what I wanted, if they were different, I would try to "convince" her my way was right, and she would say "ok."

I know now that that cant work. I know now that I am not going to be that anymore.

But that doesnt matter for our son until she wakes up.

EDIT: I was typing this and screen was up when I hit "post" so I jjust read Marks post.

Love Busters:

Selfish Demands: TRY make our marraige work. To her this is a Selfish Demand, she has said many times not everything is about me. She says she has tried, even though I think she was just suffering through wearing a fake happy face and I was just too stupid to see it.

Angry Outbursts are gone, I havent had one, promised her I will not fight with her, havent fought. I stay calm and composed, even when I am reeling inside, and at worst, ask to talk about it later.

O&H - So, ... yeah, I want to put a VAR under her bed and in our couch, and I am thinking of sending Exposure letters to her friends and family all at once, without telling her. I dont know. Seems not open to me. She has specifically stated that she doesnt think its appropriate to tell people "our business." I really, at this point, dont care who knows. I think her hiding this stuff and not talking to anyone else about it is allowing her to convince herself that she is "doing this for our son" because her son deserves to see her happy, and that I can never be good enough and am incapable of change.

DJ - I cant tell if the last sentance above counts as a DJ. I know our marraige can work if we both try. She doesnt want to try, even though she does a GREAT job reading all kinds of stuff about kids and SHOULD know that divorce is really not that neat for a kid. Other than that, I am doing good with DJ's, I think.

IB: See O&H. Other than that, I let her know what I am up to, where I am at, when I will be home. Last few days she occasionally has called when she is out to tell me if she is on her way home or something. IDK why this started, guilt maybe?

She said she feels divorced already.

ENs - I meet what I can as I can. I do not want to be the doormat though. She gets mad when i do things like grab her plate for her or open the door for her. I dont know if I should keep doing them anyway or if I should stop since maybe they are Annoying Habits now or something. Its like she LOOKS for reasons to be mad at me or something.

I do plan to look up family things to take our son and her to, to make time for us. Other than that, she watches TV if we are home together, or she leaves for a while. I dont like it that she leaves, and I plan to tell her that I am not her babysitter so she can just leave whenever she wants.

Plan:

Tomorrow, MC appt.
Weekend, couple family events already planned we will both be attending. I also want to make an effort to be available for talk and try to keep it light. I dont want to bring up M stuff. However, she has started trying to talk about "who gets what" kinda stuff. IDK how to deal with that. I plan to get 2 VAR and put them in the couch and under her bed. This scares the hell out of me, since she will probably leave or try to tell me to leave, if she finds them. I guess at this point, she says she is planning to anyway, so what is there to lose, 3 or so more months of what we have now?

Next week, I am gone on my trip. While gone, I am going to write letters to our friends and family, laying it out. I am going to try to remain objective, and will post them on here. I will mail them before I get home. These letters will just be saying that she is saying she is done, how things have gone, and what I am doing, with an invite for them to get her "side."

When I come home, I will check the VARs. If they indicate anything beyond friendship, even evidence of a more serious EA, I will write a second letter, exposing THAT to everyone.

I have mentioned I have friends coming down. They will stay with us for a short amount of time, until they get a place. Should be only a couple weeks.

At that point, I know I have a place to stay if I choose to leave. But IDK if I should. What does that accomplish? I cant fill ENs if I leave. But I cant fill ENs now to a large extent since she has walled herself off. Just stopping LBs hasnt just made her warm and willing.

I feel like I am not going to be able to get through to her. Like involving her friends and family is the only chance to get her to wake up. I know she loves our son. I know she is smart and giving and loving. She seems to be purposefully ignoring anything good we have and have had, and focusing on any negatives to justify. I know at our first MC, when the MC asked "so what happened that brought you here," and she had no answer for him, no specific thing, just all the little things that we hadnt attempted to resolve, I saw how that bugged her. That she already knows she is standing on a house of cards and that it doesnt really make sense.

BT-

I do think the VAR is a good idea. It will help you know something hopefully, one way or the other. We have IP cameras installed inside our home and did so for the oversight of our nanny (and we told each of them we had the cameras). But they are in the home, live, so either one of us can really log in anytime on each other. You can buy them with or without sound. You can log in online anywhere and watch/listen. You could always consider that.

Don't feel guilty about not trusting her. You are concerned about her actions. Do it, because you sound like you are doing it for the right reasons. If she is not having an EA and you find that out, then you can drop it again for now and focus on meeting her ENs and sending more time together.

If you find something, PA or EA, you can start the exposure, which I do agree is a good technique to end an affair should there be one.

If you don't find anything, for me, it would be hard to start an exposure campaign. If she is not having an EA, I can see that in her current state, it may look as if you are controlling again for sending out letters to her inner circle. That could have effects you may not want. If she is (but you just didn't find it that time) but still expose, then I think it could serve the same outcome as the PA situation.

Just my thought, likely not MB supported, but if you find nothing because you just did not get anything on the tape, you could send a letter, just not an exposure letter, like you mentioned in your afternoon post today.

When we got married, there were people that vowed to stand up and help us and support us. When they do not know what is going on, they can't intervene. If you do not know if she is having an EA with OM or NF, maybe it would be good to send a "help me, I love my W" letter. I like the general start to what you wrote on something like this.

These people in your life can and should know that 1) you are having problems, 2) she has indicated she wants a divorce, 3) you do not want a divorce, 4) you love her, 5) you are working on your things, and 6) you are asking for their help to talk to each of you, listen with their hearts and try and help heal the marriage.

Consider posting it before you send if you want feedback from MB.

Every action has a reaction. When we do not have all the information we need, it sure is hard to feel like you can make the right decisions.

I also wanted to add that I personally think men and women can be friendly. I think they can be friends. I know, not MB. But I do NOT think those relationships should EVER be outside of the M relationship. I do not think extended periods of time meeting to talk is healthy when it does not involve you as well (common shared events). I do think those boundaries can easily get blurred and it can easily end up in an EA or a PA. So pay attention to the issue and do take some action.

The VAR is a good start I think. You have talked to OM. Talk to OM wife (i think she also lived with you guys?) and tell her about the time your W and OM talk/text. Maybe she knows all about it and he is sitting there with his W while he is talking to your W. Maybe she has seen the texts. Maybe she can now help investigate and see what she can find out if she didn't know about it before. Could you go to the park and see who she is neeting when she meets NF? Can you ask a friend to do it for you? And plan for your letters based on what you learn.

Good luck. Don't feel guilty. Distrust works to protect us as long as it is within reason. You have that reason.

IB: Maybe she is doing this because you have been. Actions, not words, are good indicators of intent. Even if it is out of guilt, it is a good change.

EN's:
Interesting take on the doing nice things may now be an annoying habit. Here is what I understand, correct me if I am wrong. She feels you have been controlling. You likely have been in some/many areas. Where she is at right now, maybe the plate or door things reinforce the control? Sometimes control is subtle but for those who have felt controlled, it can be changed in the small things.

You think grabbing her plate or opening a door is nice and sweet. If she feels it is controlling, this is an easy power/freedom to give her. Would be easier to let her get her own doors than t let her go out with OM. It is not meant like "then get your own darn door". But if she has felt/been powerless, find neutral ways to give her some power. Instead of getting her plate, say something like "do you want to grab a plate and watch this movie"? It might sound dumb, but its not. Her common theme is on power imbalance. It is real for her.

HBS tends to get me a plate, dish it up (sometimes even adds the salt and pepper on stuff), and give it to me. For SOME women, this might make them feel special. It does not for me. I like to get my own food, in portions I prefer, and dress it with or without salt or pepper as I want to. I had shared my frustration on this several times over years. It was real for me. It took a long time for him to stop doing it and it only happens now usually on holiday meals. It is a little thing but can be a big deal.

She may be looking for reasons to be mad at you, or maybe she is just expressing herself (poorly possibly) on things that do make her mad, but she was just quiet before. Maybe you can see it this way...she's talking to you. She is telling you what makes her mad. She cares enough to tell you. That has meaning. I can tell you that. So listen, carefully. Keep your own list. Find ways to avoid those "things" if you can. They can be signals to solutions if you listen.

Just thought - your friends coming in. Did you both agree to them arriving and staying with you? Is she just saying ok but feeling controlled? Is this a topic you could use to invite conversation? If you didn't ask her before you agreed to it, ask her now. If she has issues with it, then use that to find a solution you can both agree on. Maybe they can stay in a hotel and you can help pay for it? Maybe they can stay somewhere else? Etc. If she is happy they are coming, this is a non-issue. If not, could be used for improvement.

Just thoughts.

You really need to re-read Mark's post about getting a plan. You are halfway trying to implement MB principles here but you will do more harm than good if you do them wrong. Have you read the Book Surviving an Affair? You need to. You don't really need more evidence, you have hundreds of hours of phone calls, thousands of texts and the admission by both parties that they are leaning on each other for emotional support. That my friend is what is destroying your marriage and that is what must be exposed to the entire world. If you do not get a plan, grow a spine and stand up to your WW this is not going to have a happy ending. I tell you this out of concern, not harshness or meaness. I was deployed with the military during my WW's A and exposure broke up the affair. To be honest though, i was kinda like you, too afraid to really use the stick part of plan A and i ran out of gas kissing her rear end at 8 months having never really stood up to her. Read Gerkaguards thread. He exposed to his WW's chain of command in the military in order to bust up her affair and it worked. That is the kind of spine you are going to need.

You must get a list of names to expose to, write a short note or email and post it here for comment and then start emailing an dialing everyone, and I mean everyone. You are allowing your WW to control the situation.

SWW

BT,

Have you called the OM's wife to tell her that her husband is sleepinng with your wife yet? Have you told her he came to your house to talk about his relationship with your wife?

So your WW and her lying POSOM say he is getting divorced? Have you asked his wife about that? Please, get her educated and possibly on your side!

SWW

BT,

Please listen to these posters. If you are uncomfortable with exposure until you have more proof then get your butt to snooping and get your proof.

I myself don't relly think you even need more proof because as others have pointed out she is already at least "emotionally" attached to this OM (and my guess is it more already too).

And it doesn't matter that "she has no one to talk to", heck you are justifying it for her she doesn't even have to do it herself. She can make some FEMALE freinds to talk to, opposite sex friends are not good for a good marriage anyway.

And what harm will come out of it anyway, big deal if she is mad, she is already mad at you and has said she is done and all the above.

And DO NOT let them know in advance that you plan on exposing and you should definitely talk to the OMW because i would pretty much bet that she has no idea they are "getting a divorce".

Please please please DO SOMETHING. Do not just stand there, the sooner the better.......

Trust me these people know what they are talking about.

Please read my previous post to you and heed the advice you are receiving. Right here you said it yourself, you are home watching your son while she is out with the POSOM.

Grow them back RIGHT NOW.........

LorG, I would advise that you read the information on the site, order the books and read the threads of people who have been through what BT is going through. You are not doing him any good by dispensing your opinion on a site that offers PROVEN methods for breaking up affairs and restoring Marriages in the wreckage left behind. Everything that he has done so far is enabling his WW to get more firmly entrenched in her A and believe me, there is no doubt that this is an A. Your advice is not helping him in this life destroying situation.

God's Blessings,

Say

I agree with Say.

To the OP, please note LorG's registration date. For some reason he or she is posting advice as a newbie. You would be better off listening and implementing the advice of the veterans here.

To LorG-- what's your story?

You are right, I am a newbie. I have read a LOT on MB and affairs. I have completed the paid online course for MB.

I don't believe everything is a square peg that fits into a square hole.

I think MB can work. I think and have read that it does work. But I know there are several veterans that it did not work for and they are divorced. I think it is narrow-minded to think that there is only one way to achieve a goal.

MB is a tool. A system. A very good plan. But it is not 100% fool proof and it doesn't work exactly the same for everyone the same way.

We all have to live with ourselves and the decisions we make. Our own regrets. Each of us will go on with our lives and BT will be left with whatever course of action he chooses based on the advice on this forum. It is his marriage. His decisions.

Mine is but one voice. It is nothing more than my opinion. Take it or leave it. I also do not have a problem with anyone stating you disagree with mine.

If he feels like he needs more information, then he should go get it, fast, and make a decision.

If she is having a PA, then she is already having a PA and when he finishes the VAR in 1/2 weeks he can explode it.

If she is having an EA, he might feel better knowing what it is like before he throws accusations around. No one likes to be accused of something they are not doing. Especially if it is shared with others. And that does not build trust or communication and may not improve his chances of saving his marriage.

I think he should take action. Now. Pick something. Call the OM wife. Today. Buy the VARs. Today. Do it now. Whatever it is.

But BT is sharing his thoughts, concerns, fears and is asking for advice. I just wanted to share my thoughts. I could be wrong. I might be right. I don't know. Everything I shared is based solely on what I have read in his thread. I don't know what she would say, just what he says she says.

BT - If you would prefer that I don't post, please just let me know. I feel for you and I will keep watching your thread, as I have Gerkaguards thread, because I very much want for you to save a marriage you have clearly stated you mistreated, but now realize how much you cherish. I am ok if you want me to step aside.

Good luck.

Just a reminder to help this poster learn Marriage Builders concepts. If you can help him in that regard, feel free to post. If not, please refrain from posting. Please take the time to familarize yourself with our mission statement at the top of each page which states "please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts."


Email me with any questions. Thank you, Revera

**edit***

LorG

Do you have personal experience with marital infidelity as either a wayward spouse or a betrayed spouse? Your signature does not indicate it.

These concepts like exposure are not "attack level" tactics though to the newly initiated they might seem so.

en T/J

SWW

I guess if it is important as a factor, I would share that I have enough unanswered questions and behaviors from my spouse that I suspect he has been wayward in his past. We have discussed it. He knows I think he likely has been. He will not be surprised by my statement. I have said the same to his parents and mine. He states he has not been.

So I guess when asked like that, I would say I am a betrayed spouse. My spouse would disagree. And I don't think the title of BW in necessary for me in my process, at least at this time.

I am happy to answer questions but would really like to bring the attention back to BT's thread and what he needs. If I am a distraction, I will stop posting and just follow the thread.

Ok, couple things.

I havent seen any records of texts. I dont know how to access them or if I can from Verizon online.

She has not topped 1000 hrs by a long shot, she is sitting around 100 total right now. That said, we were living with the guy so there are all those days they spent watching TV in the living room together while I played my games in sight thinking everything was neat. Not sure what I was thinking. I am not pointing this out to defend her really, just, I see a lot of "its a PA, no doubt," then a post about her 1000s of hours and countless texts, so seems like the conclusion is being drawn based on that, and I just want to clear up the "evidence" I have right now.

Anyway, VARs this weekend before I leave.

Anyone know much about them? I have been researching them and it seems mostly what I want is a microphone of good quality. I dont know if it will be a problem that there is a TV in both her room and the living room (where couch is) that are on most of the day so will that trigger the VAR? Cuz I havent seen one made that records 80 hours straight.

Any advice on those would be neat. I also plan on asking the Best Buy and Radio Shack people, and whatever electronics places I see.

The letter, at this point I am confused.

I know what an EA is. I understand MB and why its bad. However, how do I explain it to non-MB friends and family? Do "normal" people just "get" that 60 hrs a month on the phone with someone is not cool?

To be clear, I have not warned her or even really hinted at exposure. Her comment about "not telling anyone our business" was from a month ago during a conversation about what she tells people, and she was saying she doesnt tell anyone anything for that reason.

Also, I dont know OMs wife at all. She lives in SC, we are in NC, and I dont know her name or anything. I could maybe hint at it with OM at work or something. I will have to think on how to do that. OM and OMW actually both legally reside in SC, OM just comes up here and stays during work weeks. The house belongs to a freind of mine who I know from Maine. He rents one room out to OM, and for the time we were there, rented another to us. Now OM pretty much lives there because of the problems he is having at home. I dont doubt the OM's divorce. He might be lying to everyone at work I guess, but he isnt like, telling everyone, and I am hearing about it from people that I THINK he thinks are friends but who are also my friends now.

Its weird because I want to be angry at OM, and maybe there is something wrong with me NOT being angry, but I consider it. He was living in a place, and wanted to watch TV. His wife and him arent getting along. He hangs out at his rent place where a nice cheerful lady also likes to watch TV, so they hang out and chat. They become friends, but to him its fine because they are "just" friends. He even asks me behind Ws back if its ok with me that they be friends, this was about 2 or 3 months ago, a while, before I was really awake to the dire situation I had put my marraige in.

At that point, I told him no, I dont have problems with them being friends, and I think that if W and I were good, I still wouldnt mind OM being OUR friend. He is a nice, well mannered guy who is fun to be around.

The only problem I have with OM is that W chooses to spend time with him and NOT me. If it was with US (me and OM and our son) as a family with OM tagging along, and then other time with me or me and our son, alone, than I dont think I would have a problem.

Is that wrong?

Today, MC. He told us (mostly her) that her idea that "I cant be nice to H because he takes it wrong and thinks we will be together" is bologna and that she shouldnt let me control her behavior like that. That if I am nice, she should be able to just be nice back, it doesnt help anyone, least of all her happiness, to be spiteful in response to nice gestures. He went on with the idea that "you can still be nice, even hold hands, kiss or even have sex, you are still married and that wouldnt have to change your decision. Its your decision, nothing he or you do HAS to change that." But that she also shouldnt close her mind to options since that is restraining herself from what life offers, which is also not healthy.

She is mad at him because he has said something like this at every session. I asked her why she looked upset as we left. She was reluctant at first but I was gentle and persistant and she told me she doesnt like him saying that (about holding hands and sex etc) and that he has "one more chance." If he says it again next week she doesnt want to see him again.

I told her that it isnt really a chance if she doesnt let him know her boundaries. He cant avoid a line if she doesnt draw him one. It pained me to point this out because its just another example of what she did with us, as well as in the past with some of her previous friends. She stays mad but "gives" and says nothing, until she is just done. Sad.

Anyway, she disagreed about telling him, but I plan to bring it up again. Despite the "disagreement," the conversation ended very respectfully and well. I wasnt lecturing her or pushing her. She talked for a while, asked what I thought, I responded in 2 short sentances and shut up about it. She doesnt need me to tell her what to think.

MC also talked about Boundaries and how hers are rigid and inflexible which isnt healthy, but before they were totally porous and how that is also not healthy. That we both need boundaries where we dont allow others to hurt us, but that we can choose to interact with anyone, not just eachother, constructively in any way we choose.

Last night we were talking and she said she thought it was "innapropriate" for me to give her a massage since I might "get the wrong idea." I disagreed with her, told her I "get the wrong idea" every time I see her, if she must know. Anyway, tonight, she asked for a massage.

Not sure what that means, but it made me happy to see her peaceful. I can totally get when I allow myself to be forced to do something I dont like and I let it happen, how that is weak and stupid to do. I dont think this is like that. I choose to give her a massage. It is something I recently learned to do, and it makes me happy. In fact, nearly all the things she asks me to do genuinely make me happy when I do them for her. I have never felt like I was "sacrificing" for her, the rare times she has asked me for something. Only when I was in my video game fog and was being selfish would I get upset. I guess its a seeing her smile makes me happy, so even things I mildly dislike can become enjoyable when I see her smile. I wouldnt watch TV alone, its boring and I hate commercials, but when she does it and I am with her, the commercials are fun, we talk, and the show is interesting because we share what we think about it. So there, I dont like TV, and wont watch it alone, but with her, its enjoyable.

LorG, I personally dont have any problems with you posting. I also dont mind people disagreeing with you.

However, if there are rules for this board, we should abide by those.

Other than that, I welcome as many perspectives as I can get. Each and everyone is a filter through which I pass my thoughts and oftentimes something pans out that I hadnt realized.

Thank you all for this.

SWW, saynomore, Still_Crazy and Mark and all you others who check on me, thank you so much.

Dont let my denseness stop you from 2x4's. I'm learning to be a big boy and I can take them just fine.

This post skipped it to page 10, so be aware my "main" reply is at the bottom of page 9. Love to hear any thoughts or comments on it.

I am not sure what to say you are suffering from paralysis by analysis.

SWW

Oh sorry,

She mostly goes to the beach or to a meadow or a drive or errands or something. She specifically says she doesnt want me to come wiht. We used to walk on the beach together all the time, especially when we still lived in CA. Now I am not wanted during this time

You are right. It is only in the hundred hours plus, not thousands, my bad.

BT...

SWW

Have you talked to the OM's wife?

SWW

No, not with OMs wife, I dont know how to contact her, dont know her name, or address or anything. She lives somewhere in SC.

SWW - I can see that you are convinced its a PA. I can appreciate that you truly want to help me and that you are freely sharing your thoughts even if they get rejected. I am truly thankful for this.

That said, I dont know if it makes you want to kick me in the face for my obstinance or what, but I am not convinced its a PA.

I dont know what to say. I know I will eat it if the VAR catches some craziness somehow, and I will come here and tell you and say you were right, but at this point, I just dont think so.

You are definately throwing it at me and its making me think, but I turn it over, I check the times she has been "out" and see phone calls to people, OM sometimes, other people other times, and I think about how she acts and the things she says and the way OM acts and the things he says, and I just dont see a PA.

Maybe I am blind.

VAR suggestions:

Olympus DS-30 Digital Voice Recorder
Expensive at $250 bucks. Online at Amazon.
Up to 68 hours of recording time; 30-hour battery life, optional AC adapter (if that could even be utilized and maybe so if not under the couch), and extension microphone optional.

Sony ICDP620 Digital Voice Recorder PC Compatible via USB
Just under $200 bucks. Also online at Amazon.
Supports up to 260 hours of recording time and uses two AAA batteries.

Olympus DS-40 Digital Voice Recorder
$150 bucks, again, at Amazon.
Up to 136 hours of recording time; 30-hour battery life.

I have not used any of them but they are out there. Now you can't drag your feet. Go buy two.

I logged onto my Verizon account. I can see every call, time, phone# and length. On the data side, I can see every date, time, Text # to/from, # to/from, sent/received. Of course, can't see content.

There are computer programs you can buy and install onto a cell phone you own (abiding by laws) that will track what you are looking for (records calls and/or sms texts and/or GPS locations dependign upon what you buy). Try sites like Webwatcher Mobile Spy Smartphone Monitoring or Flexispy (assuming she has the right phone). If she doesn't...it would not be out of the oridinary for a 15th month old to drop her incompatabile cell phone in the toilet (kids like toilets) thus requiring her to get a new "compatable" one.

It is just the truth you are after. I would not be angry if HBS used any tools on me. When we installed "nanny cams" our nannies all said they did not care - they had nothing to hide.

No more excuses.

Added - OM wife. Facebook, friend OM, view OMs friends. View friends of OMs friends. Chat with OM until you know her 1st name. Last name you should already know. Then match that to a friend. Use LinkedIn. Same searches. Try Zabasearch (free & somewhat helpful). Filter thru names by estimated DOB (ask OM casually about OM wife to gather data such as did he marry older or younger and by how much and did he thing that had anything to do with hw their marriage turned out, or how long did they live in...(then say) "what city did you say you lived in SC again"? How did they pick there to live...blah blah. People will talk when you show an interest. Then use that to find her. She is an important tool for you so invest in finding out who she is.

Forgot to add. Her allowing you to give her a massage. IMO - not something someone who is "feeling divorced" would likely do. Getting a massage is hardly something you want from someone you want nothing to do with.

I like your reply told her I "get the wrong idea" every time I see her. Honest. Intimate. Flattering. Powerful. Yet you verbally respected her boundary. I liked the balance. And you gave her a massage. And she accepted it. And...she ASKED for it.

It is a good thing.

Thats the thing. I honestly dont think there is a PA, and that this EA is kinda being blown up because she doesnt HAVE anyone else to talk to. She doesnt feel she can talk to me, because she feels she needs to protect herself from me.
but
she cant talk to her dad (no phone)
not really her mom (she knows her mom is nuts but loves her anyway)
not her old friends because they all have kids and are really busy and most are 3 hours behind us
and she doesnt have new friends that are really GOOD friends since she only has maybe 1-2 years with any of them (moving in the military)

It MIGHT be a PA or a deep EA, but so much says that it very well might NOT be.

So I dont know, I will VAR, thanks for the info, I wrote them down and will see if the stores have any of those. I cant do online because I only have a couple days till I leave.

I think in addition, she feels hurt and tired of what we had going, she doesnt want it back. Thats fine, I agree. We BOTH dont want it back, but she doesnt trust that it could be better.

She is not dumb, but she doesnt think the way I do. I love talking to her so much because of that. Such a different perspective so alien to the way I analyse and the world. I miss her terribly.

I am hoping that the "expose" letter can bring her friends and family to support her. If they think she should leave me, fine, if they think she shouldnt, also fine. As long as she gets to talk to someone about it, instead of sitting in her own mind, I think she will be better off no matter what happens.

I know how confused I have been, and I have been talking to,
well...

2 psychologist (1 is a current coworker I bounce ideas off of, the other for a few sessions about 4 months ago)
1 therapist (coworker from the place we moved from)
1 really good friend who mostly listens
this entire board with wonderful people like Mark, Mel, and you guys recently that jumped in on teh Affair board

I have gotten lots of instant feedback and had many 2x4's telling me what I ahve been doing wrong. I am also very analytical in the fact that if it makes sense to me that its the "right" way to do something, its done, I will do it.

Same reason I cant say its a PA... I cant get it to add up enough for me.

Maybe I am hoping at shadows and the devil will get the last laugh....

About facebook...

yeah, OM is 50 something. He types with his pointers, hates computers, has no facebook or email outside the mandatory USMC work email we have to use. He complains incesantly about them at work, and even W has told me how she mentioned to him that he should get facebook and he said "not likely."

He is also not on my Ws facebook, so... yeah.

Thankful for technology impaired people for probably the ONLY time in my life....

Amazon. Order RIGHT NOW. Overnight shipping. Received by Monday May 24th.

If that is not fast enough - do you have anyone that you trust that could come to the house and swap out a couple of VARs while you are gone so you can get your recording time you need?

Other options I have seen at pimall.com. Can't speak to their quality but good place for info.

If Monday is soon enough, then go order at Amazon now.

Good luck and good night.

No monday is not fast enough.

I will buy from a store, no worries.

My flight leaves on Monday, and fedex has a history of showing up around 4-5pm, long after I will be gone.

Thanks though, good night!!

"The only problem I have with OM is that W chooses to spend time with him and NOT me. If it was with US (me and OM and our son) as a family with OM tagging along, and then other time with me or me and our son, alone, than I dont think I would have a problem."

You think the OM is banging your WW but you can say this?

That's because you are, albiet unintentionally, being dishonest with yourself.

Do you really think she's walking in a meadow or on the beach?!?!

Well, MaiMai... yes I do think that is really what she is doing.

and TR, I dont think he is banging my W, so I can say that.

She was starting to get emotionally distant before we moved in Nov 09, and I can recognize that now in hindsight. After the move, before meeting OM, she had already begun to be short with me, avoiding touching and all that. I thought she was just upset with the move and that it would work itself out when we settled in and started counseling and talking and stuff.

OM wasnt a friend till about the last month we were there, so February.

I am not saying there is no chance, and I am not trying to disregard advice.

Many of you say "definately PA," so I am getting VARs to snoop while I am gone. I got the phone stuff. Hopefully the VAR will show if its deep EA, PA, or whatever and I can adjust from there. I guess its not ALL neat that OM is technologically impaired because it reduces a lot of the evidence that might be just lying around.

I need some evidence because I am just not convinced.

BT,

I am not trying to throw it at you to be mean. I want you to be mentally prepared though. Also, if it has gone PA it makes it much more difficult to extricate her from the affair.

Did i hear you right? You and the OM are in the Marine Corps? The cell evidence alone is enough to go talk to your CofC and get this OM away from your wife. Does he outrank you? You could stir this up so he will never want to speak to your WW again. Then, you might have a chance to save your marriage.

I am in the Navy, and you know what the military thinks about a higher ranking enlisted or officer fraternizing with a junior's wife. You could end his career.

SWW

Oh no no, SWW, I certainly dont think you are being mean. Didnt mean to convey that.

I feel I am mentally prepared if it IS a PA. I also know a PA would be a lot more drawn out, but I feel also that a lot of other things would be easier if its a PA.

PA is PA, everyone knows and thinks its bad. EA is kinda gray. MB is quite clear, but other people (friends and family, IDK, THE JUDGE) might not agree or whatever. If it was a PA, would be simpler in some ways, but more work. IDK. I dont want it to be a PA obviously.

No, neither of us is USMC. We are both civilian employees for a USMC school.

I was a Navy HM until Feb 2010, hoo ya navy, and yeah... seen plenter of E w/e + Officer frat problems. Sad the things that happen...

Dont stop SWW. Even if you think I am retarded and stupid or whatever, I DO listen to you and everyone else. I DO appreciate all your input.

Every person has valuable experience and I appreciate them sharing it.

Today has been great so far...

will post later maybe.

We have cleaning and movie to watch together after little man is down for the night...

trying so hard to keep it light and non-R fight stuff.

need lots of happy thoughts =D

BT, I would then hire a PI to track down his wife. I have not tried this one, but here it is: http://www.cheatingspousepi.com/

Or PrincessMeggy suggested using publicdata.com


I tried to find this quote but could only see it in TheRoad's post. You surely did not say this, did you? I almost fainted when I saw this quote and just want to make sure you really said it before I allow my blood pressure goes to stroke levels and i burst a gasket. Please tell me you did not say this.

IDK Mel.

I did say that.

I am saying OM, assuming no PA or anything, is a decent guy. I put myself in his shoes and cant say what I would do different or see wrong with it. Assuming no PA of course.

Please go ahead and go stroke levels and let me have it if you disagree with this...

Get your meds ready, Mel. It was about halfway through BT's last post on page 9. The whole post dropped my jaw. We can only pray that the VAR brings out something that will convince him.

God's Blessings,

Say

I hate this part....Your wife is banging OM...No doubt.

Sorry.

Is your wife having an affair or not? If she is not having an affair then what are you doing here on SAA? If she is, then you are MESSED UP to suggest that her OTHER MAN, the enemy of your marriage and your child's family, ACCOMPANY you on an outing.

If he is having an affair with your wife, he is NOT a "decent guy." That is ludicrous.

That is SICK. And I am scared you are walking about FREE with such a destructive, lackadaisical attitude about INFIDELITY. You do not have the luxury of wacky moral retardation when you have CHILDREN, SIR. You have a moral OBLIGATION to protect your marriage and your children.

If this is your attitude then I view YOU as a greater threat to your marriage and your child than the affair. Defining deviancy down will avail you exactly nothing.

I am confused. Is she having an affair or not? The PA part is irrelevant. AN AFFAIR IS AN AFFAIR.

Is this an affair or not?

I say, yes. OM claims to be divorcing. He is living apart from his W. (different states) BT has hundreds of hours of logged phone calls between them. His W leaves him with his son for hours in the evenings while she takes drives and walks on the beach "alone." She has emotionally distanced herself fom BT.


If it walks like a duck....


God's Blessings,

Say

W distanced herself prior to this OM. Then they became friends.

Thank you Mel, and please, continue and respond. I may be way off.

I dont think there is a PA at all. I dont think there is an EA beyond friends. MB says no opposite sex friends outside the marraige.

To my wife, she was "outside the marraige" about 4-6 months ago. She has told me she felt "done," back then. The fact that she continued to move to NC from Maine with me, picked a house, signed papers with me, and THEN told me "Oh, I am not staying by the way" points to maybe she wasnt "done" for sure. I think that having OM as someone to have a not UNhappy conversation with highlighted all the bad ones we had been having and helped her see that she didnt want our marraige anymore.

That said, I DONT think its ok for her to think "Oh, I am emotionally done, so I dont have to try anymore," and I dont want our son to learn that. She didnt have a limit to her marraige vows beyond infidelity (the traditional vows), so quitting for any other reason is breaking an oath.

That said, I dont want our old marraige anymore. It was flawed. She gave and gave and never asked for anything, I recieved and recieved and never wondered at her not asking for anything. Thats dependancy. I dont want that. IF we can pull through this, we will have to build a whole new relationship. I am totally willing to do this. "I do" meant just that to me.

We dated/knew each other for 2 months before we got married.
A 9 month deployment in there, and our flawed relationship, and she sees this mountain of LB habits built up where it seems impossible to "save" our marraige. That said, I still said, "I do," so I am not done.

I dont think she is cheating in a PA, and the time spent talking with OM is due to their not being anyone else available for her to talk to, that she is willing to talk to (ie-not me).

I hope the VAR's can clear some of this up. If theres a PA, then I go from there.



Tonight - watched Where the Wild Things Are. Talked for about 1.5 hours. She brought it to relationship and I failed to stop it. I dont think I said anything too bad. I mostly listened, asked a lot of questions. Only thing possibly bad was she asked me why I think she is leaving. I told her:

1) You see this huge pile of things on top of our marraige, all the hurt, neglect, etc, and you feel that even if we can get rid of it all, you arent sure the marraige we had was even viable from the start.
2) You dont trust me not to fall back to the way things were.

First, she got mad and said "I didnt hear you say I once, like you didnt do anything wrong, like you think this is all my fault."

I said, what do you disagree with about my answer besides not saying I?
"Well, IDK, I didnt really hear it, I was listening for I"
I restated each, and we talked, and I explained that the mound of garbage was from both of us, I am not denying that or the fact that I broke trust.
So she said, "well, I guess thats about it. The biggest reason though is because you ignored me, you ignored us, and our sons. Maybe you arent doing it now, but I dont trust you not to fall back to it."

So basically, I failed at relationship talk, but we werent arguing. It wasnt a LB conversation with AO's DJs and SDs, rather an honest exchange of thoughts and feelings. So I dont know if its all bad.

We both dont really like our current MC. Maybe she would be willing to try SH if this guy doesnt work out?

She said again she is only doing counseling so she can say she did it, and to try to get us to a point where she can be friends with me.
I asked if she agrees that to be friends, we have to heal this hate, distrust, and resentment.
She said yes, and agreed that MC would have to get us to the "freind" point on the way to "married," so MC still makes sense for accomplishing her ultimate goal of just being friends.

Heard OMs wifes name, unsure of spelling, havent looked it up yet to see if I can find her. Its on the list of things either this weekend, or during the week I am gone.

so if this is not an EA then what is the problem? If they are just "friends" then invite him over to your house tomorrow and you can all be "friends." Can you invite him over for dinner tommorrow?

He has been over for dinner. He watches our son sometimes for us, borrows us his truck, I lived with the guy too. He is a friend. I refer to him as OM so that people know who I am talking about.

I am on this forum because it was said "its an EA, go to SAA." Others have tried to convince me its a PA or EA. I am not sure, but I am on SAA because THESE guys would most likely recognize it for what it was. With that said, I dont think its a PA, but I will heed the advice to snoop more. SAA has helped me already.

She fulfills her need for Conversation with OM. She says she was "done" with me about 4 months ago, and the conversation definately died off back then. That is also before the friendship with OM really started.

To her its not even close to an EA since she wasnt emotionally connected to me before she even started talking to him.

I DO recognize that for us to rebuild our marraige she will need to talk to ME. Right now, she doesnt want to rebuild.

Maybe I am doing this wrong, Mel.

I am thinking about the "Man up" post.

I cant tell her what to do. I dont feel like I can say "You are not allowed to talk to OM anymore," not because I fear her wrath, but because she has removed herself. To her the marraige was over before OM was even around.

Do I have this wrong?

I dont even feel like I could say "Your EA with OM is destroying our marraige," since it was pretty much gone prior to OM. I could definately say "Your contact with OM is hindering any chance of recovering our marraige," but she doesnt want to recover it, so therefore there is no problem to her.

BT, this probably is an EA, and more likely a PA. I would focus on getting the goods and then taking steps to expose it. But first, you need to focus on getting the goods.

Can you have her followed by a PI when she leaves for her "walks?' What can you do to do to get the goods? Is the OM free to come to your house during the day?


Then why is she there? Has she filed for divorce?

I am leaving for a week on Mon. I will have VAR in the house to possibly catch her doing something.

She has not filed for divorce.

She is looking for a job, wants to get that, save up a bit, then get a place, get all set up, then file.

She has threatened to "leave now" a couple of times over this or that, but it hasnt amounted to much. Though last night she said if I invade her privacy like with the phone minutes she would leave right then. Whether she leaves now or later ir really not a big deal, so I dont want to "drive her out," but I am not going to stop working on myself and our marraige.

In a week or two re-reading these words will make you taste the vomit at the back of your throat.

If you turn out to be right MaiMai, I will be the first to let you know.

Thank you for trying your best to warn me.

Working on yourself is cute and winsome, BT, but you don't really have the luxury of doing that right now. Your marriage is in crisis and needs your attention. I am very concerned this has dragged on so long without you taking some stronger action.

The longer this goes on, the more entrenched the affair becomes. It is obvious to me that this is an affair, and even Mark told you this some time back. Yet you have done nothing to whatsoever to bust up this affair as far as i can see. In fact, you seem to be in denial and actually CONDONING the affair and allowing this man around your child.

You need to STEP UP the snooping, not scale back. Your wife does not have the right to the privacy to have an affair. Everything she does is your business.

Will a voice activated recorder in your home get you the intel you need?

How old is this child? Is he old enough that he would remember that you did this to him? I will WARN you strongly, that if he is old enough to remember this he will not remember your neglect fondly. I was allowed to go around my father's mistresses when I was FOUR and I DEEPLY RESENT the moral confusion it instilled in me at a very young age. Kids instinctively know right from wrong and when adults won't validate that feeling, they learn to DOUBT THEMSELVES. I concluded at a very young age that I must be a very stupid girl.

BT, I would remind you that you have a moral obligation to PROTECT your child from harm and allowing him to be around his mothers lover is gross dereliction of duty. You will be as guilty as SHE if you don't step up and protect this child from this exposure.

Mel,

there's hundreds of hours of phone calls, she disappears to drive alone to meadows and the beach and will not let BT go with her. The OM came over to their house to assure BT he was not having an affair w/his wife, they just supported each other and talked. She has the wayward script down pat.

This is an EA for sure (prob PA as well) and an EA will destroy your marriage same as a PA will BT. Get some more evidence, though I think you have enough already.

SWW

I have to agree, SWW. I don't understand why he is not doing anything to stop this.

Hi BT,

I just came across your thread. You're getting loads of great advice here from Melody and everyone, and while I am not a veteran as such I would like to offer my observations in the hope that you will become more proactive.

First BT I think you're getting too hung up between the EA and PA. Both are destructive to any marriage. If my favorite baseball team gets beaten today 10-0 instead of 15-0 (which could have happened) should it matter? In either case they were sufficiently whacked!

"I dont even feel like I could say "Your EA with OM is destroying our marraige," since it was pretty much gone prior to OM. I could definately say "Your contact with OM is hindering any chance of recovering our marraige," but she doesnt want to recover it, so therefore there is no problem to her."

I feel in your above statement you have provided both a summary of and a solution to your situation, but you seem to fail to see it. I believe you said earlier that your wife began disengaging from you and your marriage back in Nov. of last year. Well what has happened since is that she now has an OM and that is further aggravating the situation.

Hypothetically take the OM out of the picture and that there is no affair. You are working hard, as you are now, to learn her top EN's and to satisfy them the best you can. I.e., the changes you are making. Would you be able to draw her back into your marriage and encourage her to recommit - maybe, maybe not. But imho I believe you would have a much better chance than you do now.

Now, with the OM in the picture by your own admission of keeping him as a 'friend' you yourself are contributing to the "doesn't want to recover it" feeling on her part. Why should she want to recover her marriage? Again imho it is because she now has an attractive alternate who is able to satisfy her top EN's. By allowing her A to become more entrenched as Melody tells you, you are allowing him to become even more of an attractive option, and you even less attractive. Any btw, there is No reason under the sun to consider this guy as anything close to a 'friend'. He is now your enemy. He has intruded into and is sitting there in the middle of your marriage, and is preventing you from having any chance of recovering your marriage!

The solution, listen to the people here and attack and kill this affair using all the tools that are available for you here.

In addition BT, you mentioned that your W doesn't have many or any friends now after your move (except for OM who is NOT a friend). Well, get creative. Encourage your W or even take her to clubs, organizations, groups, and functions along the lines of both of your interests so both of you, especially her, can meet and make friends with people who are not a threat to your marrage. These can be any kinds of groups or activities, such as square dancing to PAC's to volunteer activities.

Well my three cents, and good luck BT.

Tom

Thank you Tom.

Ok, Mel - yes, a VAR would give me what I need assuming its there.

Son is 16 months old.

Mel, your arguments along with some stuff I been thinking about has kinda kicked me in the [censored].

I have been trying to "respect" my wife and not try to control her. But me not doing things to avoid controlling her is a DJ. Its assuming I control her.

I dont. I control me.

My son controls no one.

I believe in my heart that my wife and I can be happy. I am willing to do what it takes to get us there.

The fact that Wife doesnt want to, even if I CAN understand where she is coming from and empathize with her, I DO think she is wrong.

I DO think her leaving will cause our son pain, no matter how "friendly" we can become. I am changing myself for me, my wife, my marraige, and my son. But I havent been fighting for my son.

Plan (such as it is at this point)

1) VAR will be in place, I get back Fri and W is gone for weekend camping with Cousin (verified on facebook etc, unless the cousin and co are covering for her... which I dont think is the case).

2) Letter's going out this week (sent while I am gone) to friends and family apprising of the situation. I will write them during my trip and post them here for feedback and thoughts before I send them.

3) I need to figure out a way to broach this subject with W respectfully. I dont want to LB, but I need to tell her that her "decision" that this wont work without giving it an honest try (my opinion, she says by suffering and waiting for me to change for this long constitutes trying) is going to hurt our son, no matter how "amicable" our divorce might be able to be, its going to be worse for our son then us staying together and honoring our commitment and vows. As such, I am not doing Divorce. Also, that her allowing OM to fulfill ANY needs rather than coming to me with the problems she had is breaking her vows and is a form of affair.

Some way to say that without DJs and such. Preferably some way that allows her to accept an SH appointment. We have another MC appointment on Tues after Mem day (the day after she gets back from camping.)

And possibly more depending on what the VAR has on it.

Thoughts?


EDIT: PLEASE dont give up on me people... I just read a post on NPs thread where someone said vets had stopped posting because they were giving advice and it wasnt being taken.

Please dont let me, or even NP, not taking your guys advice make you not want to give it.

If you have good advice, and you feel we need to hear it, dont DJ us by saying "they arent going to listen anyway." If you want to post something, post.

Obviously, you dont have to post. This forum isnt married to us newbs and hasnt made any formal commitment to us. Just... dont let the idea that "they wont listen anyway" stop you from posting.

It may feel like yelling at a wall, but the walls have ears, and sometimes, they just need the right words to open those ears. Please dong give up on us

Nobody is giving up on you here BT. I really wish you could find a way to get out of leaving town this week.

It seems you are coming around to the fact that there is a monster attacking your marriage, and that is the addiction your WW has for the OM.

Your thoughts of trying to "talk to your WW and explain to her why her actions are going to hurt your son" will not work BT. You are going to have to man up and slay this dragon, and that means keep collecting intel, and then massive nuclear exposure accompanied by a solid Plan A.

SWW

BT, you are real close to having folks give up, I am sad to say. That is because you seem to be in denial and are not even close to getting it. The Titantic is sinking and you are focused on the peeling paint in the girls bathroom. If you don't wake up and start doing something soon, the ship is going to sink. No one here can help you if you refuse to wake up and start helping yourself.

It seems your main goal is to avoid conflict at all costs, rather than save your marriage. The above statement confirms my suspicions.

The main reason I post to people who don't listen is because I am scared to death that other conflict avoiders will read this thread and think it is the right way to handle an affair. It is hard enough to help conflict avoiders on this forum without them seeing stuff like this.

"You are controlling me' is the favored refrain of WAYWARD wives and those who engage in any independent behavior when her H objects to her abusive behavior. If your main goal is to avoid that complaint, then you had better move out right damn now, becasue you will never make it. YOU ARE NOT DOING YOUR JOB TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE IF SHE DOESN'T SAY THAT.

You should be DEMANDING that she end her affair with her OM, and you are here wringing your hands about whether or not she will view you as "controlling." Check this out:


Sound a little "controlling" there?? You bet your [censored] he does!

But it seems to avoid this kind of confrontation you have ALLOWED your wife to spin the relationship as a "friendship" and you have gone along wiht this PRETENSE even though board veterans told you weeks ago this was an affair. If you had any doubts, you could have ruled them in or out weeks ago. BUT THAT HAS NOT BEEN DONE.

The goal here is to save your marriage, NOT to avoid her anger at all costs. You cannot run screaming from the room like a GURL when she screams "you are controlling me" or you are not going to make it.

Your wife is having an affair with this man, Sir. A woman does not sneak off at night and have hundreds of texts and emails with a man unless she is having an affair.

What astonishes me is that you have been here for several weeks and have done ABSOLUTELTY nothing to save your marriage. NOTHING. The situation grows bleaker by the day with the OM coming into your home at will and now she is planning a weekend rendevous without you, no doubt to meet the OM.


You don't try to reason with a falling down drunk. That is a fools mission. You get the goods, expose the affair and then tell her the OM is NEVER TO SET FOOT IN YOUR HOUSE AGAIN. He is to never be around your child ever again.

You must DEMAND that she end her affair with the OM and stop piddling around here. If you don't stand up and start doing something, the OM is going to replace you.

Registered: 04/30/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Eastern NC

Son, you have been here long enough to get it. Frankly, I am not hopeful. People here want to help you, but if you REFUSE to help yourself, this is hopeless.

I want to remind you that your best thinking got you into this mess, it won't get you out. Most of the ppl posting to you have SAVED their marriages using these tactics.

Hey BT, and you're welcome.

From what I have seen here please be assured that if you at least show some recognition of and action on the advice people give you they are not going to give up. Like with any group, either online or face-to-face, people get busy or they may choose who they can relate to on here. It's not a matter of personality.

Anyway, if you have Melody Lane on your side believe me, from my limited experience with this person, you are being coached by the V. Lombardi of MB! This is not tongue-in-cheek or facecious (sp) or anything like that - it is based on first, my own screwy preference for sports analogies, and second, just that she simply seems honest and extremely knowledgable and insightful. If her name is attached to your thread in terms of responses you will get others to join in.

Best of luck and prayers BT,

Toom

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Tom.

Melody,

Oooops, please don't say that. I follow the Brewers baseball team and a few days ago the owner gave the manager a 'vote of confidence', which means he will could be fired in a few days due to their losing streak.

*s* I just simply would rather have you take it as respect for what you have gone thru and what you are doing to help people now.

I am smiling now because BT is going to see this and wonder what the hell is going on on his thread, and I don't normally post asides on other people's thread but just had to do it tonight....*s*

Tom

BT i am assuming that you are getting ready to leave on your business trip. Please make sure you have something set up (either the VAR or a PI) BEFORE you leave on this trip.

And Mel, SWW, and all the others here posting to you are some of the best people on this board so please listen to them.

An EA is just as bad if not worse on your marriage than a PA. She is looking at you as this not-so-great husband that she maybe should not have married and looking at this other man as her knight-in-shining armor. And the longer you let it go on the better her knight will look, regardless of how he really looks.

During an affair both people are on their best behavior and they tell the other person how right they are about everything and they only show their best side so they both look absolutely wonderful to each other right now.

Also try your best to get the OMWs name and contact her to at least verify that they are "getting a divorce" because like i said i would pretty much bet that she has no idea about that little piece of information that effects her whole life too.

You really need to quit denying that it is already an affair even if they have not "done the deed" so to speak (which i doubt is the case sorry to say)......

Yeah, Tom, I liked the "take her out to meet other people so she can have a chance to make acceptable friends and listen to the vets" post.

This last one I dont understand...

=D


I dont know how to word this "better", but Mel you seemed to take it as me justifying not doing things. I meant it as an admission. I recognize that what I WAS doing is not appropriate. That I need to DO something and not worry about how she percieves it.

Unfortunately, I cannot get out of this trip this week, however it gives as good an opportunity as any for the VAR to get stuff. I got an Olympus WS-400S, and got lithium battaries to help it last as long as possible.

Bedroom or Living room? I am thinking bedroom... mostly because its easier to hide it on the bed frame and because well.... bedroom: if I want to catch "the worst" that would be it.

All you guys saying "hung up on EA or PA" are right.

Ok, I have a question...

If I start going off about OM to W, with the demand that he go away, she is going to get angry. This doesnt bother me. However, she may do things and I may start to get angry.

Am I supposed to get yelling loud and Angry Outburst? It doesnt seem right, but I dont know, maybe it gets the point accross? My "thought" is that no, dont AO, just calmly and assuredly state it. Let her blow up or whatever, and stay calm.

Thoughts?

Oh, and I am not saying people are giving up on me, NP or any other newb, just asking that they dont.

I really appreciate the time and damage to your guys blood vessels you are suffering to deal with me. It must be stressful being so slow...

I am testing the VAR right now, to see if the sound of my speakers triggers it, so i can set it so that the TV doesnt make it go off...

Thanks for listening, BT. And I forgive you for messing up my blood pressure.

Of course you don't react to her anger with angry outbursts. If you get angry, don't react with anger. Be calm and FIRM and don't allow her to drag you into a fight.

Ok, another thing...

She says stuff like, "I guess I will be taking this item since I will have Son and will need it," about a lot of things as we unpack. She has also acted as if its a forgone conclusion that she gets Son. She tries to say that its because I am the H and I have a job so she will be the more available parent, but she plans to work as soon as she can find a job and I happen to not think its a forgone conclusion.

I DO however know how hard it is for a H/Father to get anything from watching my own father fight my mother for years and years.

I am wondering, does an Affair make it more likely that the faithful spouse gets custody?

Right now, this is what is upsetting me the most, especially after Mel's repeated 2x4s to my skull to wake me up, is what her actions will show our Son. He may not remember it, but he will see the after effects.

He will see that "I swear I will do this till I die," actually means "until I dont feel like it anymore."

SWEET!! Thanks Mel, I got one right... NO AO's!!

She acts as if this is a foregone conclusion because you have not disabused her of this notion. Get the goods on the affair and then explain to her that she will not be leaving with your son without a court order. And if she files, you will be filing on grounds of adultery for full possession of the home and primary custody of your son. If you are in a fault state, you can even have the OM called into court to give testimony about his affair.

She needs to be told that you will NOT cooperate in any divorce action. She needs to understand that HELL IS COMING and that you will defend your marriage and your child from her adultery.

An affair does make it more likely that the father gets custody.

Also, what is your plan on getting the OM's wife's information? Have you come up with a plan to get that?

I got her name, am searching it right now and did about an hour searching last night.

I dont know how to spell it...

How many ways are there to spell Marcy?

W let the OMW's name slip during a story yesterday when we went shopping all together as a family...

It can be Marcie, so you can look that up too. Look up a babynames website, and go to the girl section and click on M...

This VAR is quite interesting...

BT, I would also be thinking about next steps. If you get the goods, I would plan on confronting her and demanding she end her affair, followed by a widespread exposure.

If you don't get any thing on the VAR, can you swing a PI?

Do you have someone who can drive by your house while you are gone and get photos of them together in your home?

Hmmm... I might, PI might be easier though. Just like she doesnt have many friends down here, I dont really either.

Widespread exposure, I am already accumulating addresses. We have many friends and family who have been moving and such, that we mostly keep in contact via facebook / email / phone, so addresses are hard to come by. I want to send paper.

Still working on Marci, or sons name, have that too

Oddly, she hasnt taken off to be alone at night for, well... 5 days maybe? Not sure.

What about neighbors? I have been making it a point to be more friendly to people last 5 months or so, and its kinda payed off. Couple of the neighbors are real comfy coming over.

she says this stuff because right now she is a vile creature with no respect for you whatsoever, because you actually sat there while she and her lover worked to gether to con you into believing they were not in an affair and you actually listened to it. You haven't stood up to her...yet.

I really hope you get something good on the VAR this week, but even if you don't i hope you realize it is time you took control here. Exposure will give you control, it will also send a lot of those panicky feelings away.

Your WW is in her fantasy dream world where OM comes in and takes your place as your child's father and they live happily ever after swooning in their love. She is gonna hate you for ruining her little fantasy, but your marriage is pretty much over if you don't take thse vital steps to take control.

I see you were asking about how to respond to her anger. You need to buy the book Surviving an Affair and read it this week, it will tell you how to handle these types of situations. You really at a minimum need to read the boook this week if you are going to wait to expose till you return.

Please, please, read that book this week.

Everything is going to be ok BT.

SWW

Good,

Maybe they will see something like OM at the house while you are gone, but better, once you have exposed WW won't be able to have OM over if she knows neighbors watching.

SWW

Marcy is keeping him busy.

Oddly enough no......

How long ago did the OM come to your house to tell you it was not an affair and they were just friends?

I think around the same time. They are either just cooling it for a minute until the heat dies down or have gone deeper underground so you are not suspicious is my guess.

Normal people GET that DATING somebody else's wife is wrong. Despicable. Nasty. Adulterous.

Normal people get that 60 hours a month on the phone together is a form of dating.

Normal people get that it's wrong to date someone else's husband or wife, even if they've never heard the term "emotional affair." The concept or the term may be new to you, but I assure you there are lots of people who have never heard of Marriage Builders who think this way.

Do you believe it's normal for married people to date other people?

Re: Oddly, she hasnt taken off to be alone at night for, well... 5 days maybe? Not sure.

Lots of reasons this might be. Regardless, time with you and not alone or with OM is a good thing.

You are out of town now anyways so the VAR(s) is/are in place, and you have stepped up your willingness to get information and all of that is a good thing. Keep the course.

While you are away, don't forget to stay in touch with your W, keep the contact up as you have been, attempt to keep meeting her ENs while you are away and avoid LBs that can come up when a spouse travels.

Don't forget that the VAR is there so two points to consider: 1) If you talk to her too much/too long while she is in the room with the VAR, you may run out of recording times/battery life.
2) If you call her while she is at home where the VAR is and speak with her briefly, if she is having an EA with OM, your call may very well help trigger her to call OM after you call, this getting you more relevant info on the VAR. When she uses OM to talk about her M with you, a call from you can easily be a trigger to get her to call OM.

It is manipulating the situation but your goal is information so consider it an option. You can hope & pray you get the right few minutes on the VAR with her on the phone with OM, or you can gently provide her with the triggers you know will prompt a call to OM when you know she is somewhere near the VAR.

Godspeed BT.

Thanks LorG and others.

I have come to the point (THANKS SO MUCH MARKOS!!) that I can believe that other people will "know" that the phone records are enough. The VAR is neat and all, but I have come to realize that you guys are right, I dont need whatever evidence it may provide. It can help if it gives me evidence of a PA or something, but I already know its an EA, and have enough evidence to show any sane person that its an EA.

I still dont believe there is a PA, just for the record, so that if there is and I have to come on here and tell you guys, you can wag your fingers and "We told you so..."

Anyway...

Thanks a ton Mel and SWW and Mark for his SEVERAL posts and infinate patience.


Today:

Well, yesterday, left her home very happy, she had her hair done before I left so she wouldnt have to get child care for son to do it later, she asked ME how it looked and I honestly told her how lovely she looks. Talked to her on the phone between flights, had her giggling her happy giggle I used to hear all the time. Flight delays got me stuck in another town. She called me and woke me up and we talked for a bit, I just let her vent about the day and taking care of son alone. Tried to be supportive etc, she hung up smiling.

Then called her when I arrived at her request, again, hung up smiling, and again, at her request, called her before bed and she told me all about the day and vented some. Drew some feelings out of her.

She is very nervous about job interview on Wednesday. A job or SOMETHING outside the house and our children is something I DO want for her and have always been supportive of her doing something with herself, so while she currently is more motivated to get a job so she can fund leaving, I still want to support her getting one since its something I would have supported anyway.

Does this make sense?

Regardless, I have been going with my gut and being supportive of the things that I would have supported prior to any of this stuff.

She appreciated the support and encouragement, told her have a good night, hope she sleeps well, and she said "I hope you sleep well, too" which seems lame to write out, but she hasnt said anything like that in a while. So I liked it.

So, maybe you guys are right, and the smile I hear in her voice and saw on her face before I left is only cuz she cant wait to feel OM all over her, or maybe Plan A behavior is working a little bit.

I dont know, it seems like when she is distracted and forgets to stay mad that she starts to smile and be happy when I do nice things. Its only when something somehow reminds her "oh yeah, I am supposed to hate him" that she gets cold again.

K, I am working on the letter for exposure. Generic one that I will personalize for many of the people, but basic generic template. Will post it here in a bit for review.

Just typed the whole thing... lost it...

/sigh

Here we go again.

This is a DRAFT. It is obviously way too long. I just included everything to start. Please feel free to edit it in any way. I would love to see all criticisms, feedback and suggestions. Thank you in advance!

To family/friend,

I have not been very good about staying in touch, and I am sorry it has to be about this.

W and I are having serious problems. For the past few years, I have not been a very good husband. I have been emotionally absent and negligent in the care of my wife. I have not honored my vows to love and cherish her every day.

Things came to a head in late September '09 when W confronted me and stated she was not happy and that if things did not improve she would leave. We had a long talk, and I told her I wanted her to be happy, but was unsure what to do. I suggested we go to counseling. She agreed to this, but rather than start immediately, we finally agreed to wait until after we moved to NC and got settled in to the house we planned to purchase. She told me I would have 2 years to shape up.

To save money during the move, we came down to NC and planned to stay with a friend in his 3 bedroom house until we could get our own place. It was W and I with Son in 1 bedroom, Owner and GF in another, and a man named OM in the third. In retrospect, I think I should have just rented us our own place, because it was a very stressful living arrangement with so many people and a 1 yr old living and sleepign in our room. However, it always seemed like it would be only "a couple more weeks," till something always came up and it eventually turned into about 5 months.

During this time, rather than wait till we got our place or started counseling I began to take steps to work on myself. W brought to my attention how my excessive time playing video games meant ignoring her and Son. I stopped playing video games. I started trying to do better at showing appreciation and recognition. We had some good times for W's birthday and Anniversary.

However, during free time W enjoyed watching TV. OM also enjoyed this leisure activity, and they began to spend time together. At first I was very happy to see her smile and glad that she had a friend, but I now realize that I was wrong, and that I should have been taking steps to make her smile and be her friend. W began to grow more emotionally distant from me, though I thought it was only the continued stress of the living arrangements, and didnt consider it could be anything else.

We finally closed on our house on Mar 31. We moved in that day. I was so happy that now we could finally "settle in" and get on track to the recovery we had talked about. However, approximately 1 week after moving in, W stated she was done. She planned to seek a divorce and move out as soon as she could get her feet under her. That she was done, her mind was made up and nothing would change it. She agreed to still go to counseling so that she could say she did it, and to try to keep a friendship so the seperation could be amicable.

I was devestated. I didnt know what to do. I was very emotionally and did not respond very well. Since then, strides in my personal growth have allowed to me handle myself in a much more appropriate manner. I continue to work on myself as a person, husband, and father, and continue to work on my part in this marraige. I have not given up.

I was doing a cursory check of our online phone bill when I discovered you can input a name after clicking on a number, and it would automatically switch every instance of the number to the name. I did this to 3 or 4 numbers on Ws phone and was concerned when OMs number changed 3/4's of the page to his name. I continued to investigate and the more I found the more I dug.

I found that from Mar 4th to Apr 3rd, W spent 18 hours on the phone with OM. From Apr 4th to May 3rd, there was 58 hours. In comparison, time spent with anyone other than OM during Apr 4th to May 3rd totaled less than 4 hours combined. From May 4th to the 17th was another 15 hours.

W has also stated she plans to seek custody of son, and to get her own place and have OM as a roommate. She has stated she is doing this for herself and for our son since Son deserves to see her happy.

I wish I had never let it get this far. No matter how "amicable" a seperation could be, it WILL cause Son pain. There is no way around it, and multitudes of studies confirm that fact.

I know that I am willing and able to do whatever it takes to make this marraige work. I know that regardless of what happens, I will be a better person for learning to take responsibilty for my actions, learn to be a more open and compassionate person and stand up for what I believe in. I know that I want to teach my son what commitment means, teach him how adults resolve differences, and show him how 2 people can demonstrate and build a lasting loving relationship.

Regardless what happens, this is going to be a tremendously difficult time for W. She is going to need lots of love and support. I realize that if we all lived near eachother and were in regular contact, you would probably already have noticed something was wrong, and been able to offer your love, perspective, advice, and support. Since that is not the case, I am writing this to you to inform you and offer you that chance.

If you want to ask me any questions, my number is XXXXX, my email addresses are YYYYYY and ZZZZZZZ.

W's number is AAAAAAAAAA, and email addresses are BBBBB and CCCCCCCC.

Our address is MMMMMMMMM, and we are also both on Myspace and Facebook.

Thank you for your love and support,

Sincerely,
BTinTrouble

"I still dont believe there is a PA, just for the record, so that if there is and I have to come on here and tell you guys, you can wag your fingers and "We told you so...""

You are a fool not to get a VAR. Your WW will deny to her grave that there was an affair. Your WW will get your son most likely with you paying CS. Your WW will move the OM into your house an bed in front of your son.

A cheater and lier will get to be the father figure and mentor your son.Your son will be taught it's all about "me" and his actions will have no consequences.

Edit to add that WW will be using the money that you pay for CS to support the OM.

BT,

Heaven's NO! WAY too long! Also you do not dilute it by going into your shortcomings to justify her actions, people know there is no such thing as a perfect H.

Short and sweet. My wife XXX is having an affair with OM. It is ruining our marriage. I am doing everything i can to save my marriage and I could use any help and advice you can give me.

Mel has a letter on a post i saw that was good, addressed to friends of skankhola or something, perhaps she will see this and paste it here.

That letter is a serious no-go, far too long and too much info. I know you are trying and it would feel good to express some of your true feelings, but do that here. This is an exposure letter to shine the light of day on the affair and ask for help.

SWW

PS I am glad you are seeing that an EA is just as destructive and that you really have enough evidence already. For the record I believe WW was so nice because she was in contact with the OM and wants to keep you unsuspecting, but that's my opnion.

BT,

I totally agree with SWW. I too am very glad that you are seeing this EA for what it is which is a destructive force on your marriage.

The letter is way too long and way too much on you. Yes you have done things wrong but no matter what it was HER choice to get involved with this OM. And her involvement with him is ruining your marriage.

For the record i know that we BSs have been hurt by our WSs betrayal and we may have a slightly skewed point of view. However as much as i hate to say this i also think that her being nice and getting her hair done was for keeping you in the dark about OM.

And i promise we will not say i told you so if you do find out it has went further.

You guys can say I told you so if it gets to that, its not like it will make it hurt any more or less since it would be true.

Also, TheRoad... there IS in fact a VAR in my house while I am gone right now. So I hope at least in that respect I am not a fool. Thank you for reinforcing the 2x4 of how this could go and what it might mean to my son. It is a good reminder for why this is so important beyond just WW and I.

Ok, too long, knew that. Hmmm, need to find one of the shorter ones.

Ok, exposure, what kind of info should I keep in there?

Phone record stuff?
Dates?
The living arrangement from Dec-Mar that led to the EA?

You are saying I should throw out a lot of the "me" stuff that created the vulnerable enviroment.

I understand I dont need to go this detailed, I understand that I can answer questions if the friends / family want more info, they can ask. But I REALLY dont want this to turn into a W bashing letter where she is the one who is all bad. This decision she has made I believe is all bad, for what it does to her, me and our son. But I dont think she is a terrible person. I believe she is making a mistake, and in her fog, is able to deny it. I also know that I hold some responsibility for creating an enviroment where she had needs unmet for so long.

I do not in any way take responsibility for her decision.

So how to state that short and sweet.

Thanks for the feedback, I will think about this some more, keep 2x4ing me and offering advice, I really appreciate it.

HOLY CRAP!! Nonononono.... BT, this will not work. This is way too much information and it muddies the waters. Nor do they need to know what kind of husband you were; it is not relevant to the issue.

Have you got the OMW's information?? Because you need to expose to her NOW. That exposure, along with your DEMAND that your wife end her affair might very well kill this affair. But if you don't make her your first target, you are just fiddling around the edges.

Exposure should be done in a phone call [except facebook exposures of course] and goes like this :

Dear friend, My wife, Sally, is having an affair with Joe Scumbag. Their affair started around XX-2010 and has been confirmed with hours of phone conversations and other evidence. She has asked for a divorce so she and my son can get an apartment with this married man.

I am horrified that my son has been dragged into this affair and upset that he has been exposed to Joe.

I am trying to save my marriage for myself and my baby son and ask that you use your influence to persuade her to end her affair. I am asking for your support and advice in saving my marriage.

Thank you

BT, I am once again speechless and my blood pressure is soaring. She has admitted her goal is to move in with the OM yet you continue to condone her contact AND to allow your child around this man who wants to replace you?

I am too angry for words.

You're welcome; I'm glad I could be of help.

Mel, I am an idiot quite often. I will make connections at a speed and depth that leaves people out of sight behind me, then be stopped cold by an inability to grasp something obvious and simple, especially when it deals with people. Not sure why.

I am sorry for the stress I must be putting you through, and I am appreciative of the amount you must really care for it to affect you like this.

I DO NOT condone her conduct anymore, without reservations.

On contact with OM. In the past (maybe a month and a half ago?) he asked if I minded them being friends. At the time, I kind of did mind, but I thought it was a leftover of me being a controlling and jealous husband, so I said, "no, I dont mind." Now I feel like, since I gave him the "OK" to basically date my wife and fill her ENs, I should at least let him know that I am in fact not ok with this anymore.

Yes or no?

Regardless, I will not be condoning any contact with him and my family.

Second, I cannot find OMW on the internet. When I return from this trip I will surreptitiously do some poking around work to see if there is any sort of information laying around, like maybe what town they live in, anything to narrow the search some. Until then, I dont know how to contact OMW.

Mel, is that really all I need for exposure? Seems so simple and incomplete, but then, the samples on that Thread to help Newly Betrayed Posters (http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2379879&page=3) are pretty short too. Ok, will rewrite it tonight again.

Mel you mentioned it being a phone call.

I cant call her father, he has no phone. I can call her mother and some family and friends. W also has many Facebook friends I can facebook letter to. However, OM has no facebook or social network site activity. I dont really have a way to contact his friends or family at this time.

For family and friends, I had thought to mail a letter since it is a physical thing, demonstrates how much it really matters, and can be held in the hand and read over and over.

Last thing, we have an MC appointment on Tues after Mem day (when she gets back from camping). She is getting upset with MC because he is saying things that hint that what we are going through (not counting the EA which he doesnt know about) isnt really a big deal and that we could totally work it out. I am wondering if she gets upset with this MC if I could then get her to agree to talk with SH.

Should I wait on exposure for this possibility, or should I just go ahead and do it this weekend after checking the VAR?

Appreciating any and all thoughts. Thanks so much you guys.

Dude,

Get your complete list together and expose now! The marriage counselor gig is a sham to lull you to sleep!

She is divorcing you and moving the OM to be your kid's DAD!

Honestly.

SWW

Seriously,

Not to be a broken record, but if you don't get off the stick here, you are not gonna have a family and OM is going to be banging your WW and teaching your son about morals.

Are you still cleaning off those pelicans? Get busy!

SWW

BT..you are full of excuses.

Why don't you just rent OM and your wife a room so they can bump ugly?

Maybe you can hold their clothes for them?

Yes, I would revisit this immediately and tell him that he is to never ever contact your wife again or "there will be serious consequences." Don't threaten to kick his [censored], but allude to this fact.

Tell him his AFFAIR is inappropriate and that if he comes to your home again, that you will call the police and file a restraining order against him. This is best said in person, but a phone call will suffice. If you visit him in person, I would leave your ammuntion in the car but make sure your holster and pistol are in plain sight.

Also mention to him that there is no future with your wife because he will be eternally hated by the in-laws and by your son.

Yes or no?



Ok, this is way too important to leave to chance. Can you hire a PI? It might only cost you $300 to get her name and phone # but you HAVE to get it, BT. This might be the magic bullet for your marriage. You cannot afford to not find her.


You need to be short, sweet and to the point. The more words you use, the more you muddy the waters. Your post, as written, conveys doubt and confusion.


Then only call a few of the CLOSEST contacts and email the rest of them.

And you do need to get names and phone #s of the OMs wife and his parents and perhaps sibs.



I would lose this counselor entirely and go all out with Steve Harley. He is not going to jack around here, BT. If you counsel with him alone, he will tell you what to say to get her on the phone. Once he gets her on the phone, he is going to do a major sell job on the marriage.



I think you should check the VAR and then expose no matter what. If there is something on your VAR it will just bolster your case. BUT, you have enough to run with now.

The key thing is to get the goods on the OM. Have you run his name in intelius.com or pipl.com?

Agreed - too long. But I think I do get why you want to say all of it the way you do. This letter is just not the right vehicle for it all.

Per your statement/request that you do not want it to be a wife bashing letter (and if done with the right intent that has been given to you in the thread, is not that), if you need to add something on yourself, you could consider a single statement (not paragraphs) on your contribution to the problem such as: I have made mistakes and have not been the husband I could have been to my W. But I am now committed to do all I can to save my marriage with W and be the parents to Son that I know we can be.

Again, keep it short.

And as I am relearning, with advice, take what you want and leave the rest. You get a lot of good advice from posters on your thread.

In addition to keeping it short, sweet and FOCUSED, it is important to remember the purpose of the letter. It is not about what kind of husband you were or weren't; but about her affair. It is exposure of an affair. The kind of husband you are has no more relevance to her affair than the weather in Dimmit, Texas.

And BT, on the topic of W taking OM as a roommate, this is not a good development. I don't believe I saw that info in previous posts.

But for some reason, I am guessing from the tone in your letter that you may have known this tidbit of info for a while but have not shared it on MB until now. I could be wrong, maybe she shared it with you just today, but that is my gut.

If so, consider why you might not have shared that piece. It created quite a reaction from others on your thread. As it should have. Were you fearful of what sharing it might have caused other posters to say...which they did say anyways?

Without all the pieces to your story, it is hard to help. But this is a good place to get your learning on.

Get the info on the VAR. If nothing, still send the letters and make calls. And if she still wants to move in with OM...game on.

I am nearly positive I mentioned the part of her saying she wanted her and OM to be roommates sometime prior. I got told it about 2 or 3 weeks ago.

I was not intentionally hiding it, I havent searched yet to see if I did in fact neglect to post it. If I didnt, it was not intentional.

Ok, I get it on the exposure, and I definately get it that I am going to do it no matter what, that the VAR just might give me more, but that I dont in fact need more. I will have it sent out before she gets back.

I will also be talking to OM the day I send it out. I will probably call him and ask him to come to my house and meet him in the driveway. I get the idea's about the pistol visable etc. I fully intend to be calm, concise, and most of all CLEAR in my statement. I want to clarify completely my stance and his choices, how they will affect my family, and what the repercussions will be. I dont need to threaten him at all, nor is he worth any angry outbursts. I dont intend to kill him or anything.

Ok, Mel, the idea about this MC and dumping him and calling SH is something I have already been considering. This MC isnt really doing much. Its neat that he is free (to us at least) and all, but its still costing us time, and that is not very neat. W needs exposure so that she can get SEVERAL lights on her fantasy world to maybe open her eyes to what it really is.

Her father is the only person who I HAVE to send a letter to as he has no phone or internet at this time. I plan to send him a check with the request that he use the money to activate some sort of phone, as his daughter needs him to be available.

Checking intelius and pipl now for OM info. Might have a hit.

BT, i do not think you did mention your WW (sorry but she definitely is at least wayward thinking) wanting to room with the OM until your letter post and i was hoping that it was not the case. And i do not remeber reading about camping this weekend either but maybe i missed it.

BT if you do not do something RIGHT NOW, do not even wait until you listen to the VAR your wife is going to be camping this weekend WITH YOUR SON AND THE OM and you can bet your sweet booty on that.

I agree with MaiMai, why don't you just rent them a room yourself.

Find out who the OMW is somehow today if possible!!!!!!!!

I could never understand how a man, and I use that term lightly, could let their child be exposed to a stranger, while the person expected to protect them, the WS, is in no mental position to make good decisions.

Do you know BT that some OM aren't really interested in the married women, but really her children?

If you allow your child to go 'camping' without you to protect him, you are no father.

BT, lets talk about this. The OM needs to be told what his "choices" are: if he doesn't leave your family alone then HELL IS COMING. Tell him he is to never ever contact your wife again or set foot on your property. Period. Tell him you are aware this is an affair [don't ASK, just tell him you know] and that if this comes to divorce, he will named as grounds and called into court to give testimony under oath about his adultery.

I need you to CALL his wife immediately after this meeting, so please do what you have to do to find her. You must find her, BT.

Not a good idea. You do not want him to set foot on your property ever again. Why would you play the supplicant here by "asking him a favor" to come over to your house? A phone call is less dangerous and will suffice if you are firm enough.


He is never to contact your wife again. If he does, like Mel says, hell is coming. You will fight him tooth and nail for your marriage and your family.

Expose now in a nuclear fashion to everyone BT. I still don't understand why you are on travel right now, this is a family emergency. If your son had to go to the hospital you could have gotten out of this trip. Your marriage, wife and son are totally at risk of destruction and you are too scared to ask to be left off this travel. You need to get your rear end home!

SWW

Got a name of OMs wife, nearly positive, but 2 numbers paid for on interwebs did not work. Going away from a computer after this till I get home (leaving hotel, work day at conference, then flight home).

I am watching my son this weekend, WW is not taking him anywhere.

May be able to get OMWs number tomorrow? How fast does a PI take? I plan to talk to OM this weekend, again, at my house, so if he shows up, that would preclude his being in the woods with my wife. Also, she is going with her cousin, who I have checked on facebook, and will be exposing too as well.

I have to take off from here, will be away from computers till saturday noonish. Hopefully have progress then.

SWW - I work with the guy, its not like I wont ever see him. I am not scared of him, so I dont understand why I couldnt do this in person.

Its not asking him a favor, if he doesnt watn to come, I can do it over the phone. I dont really care, I just feel like its decent to do stuff like this face to face.

Hmmm, SWW you are probably right about this trip. Every day that I continue to think about this I begin to realize more and more what a big deal it is.

Call me slow... I dont know.

But I am flying out today. It just takes 16 hours to get back...

Good, tell him at work and expose there too. Good, get home fast.

Oh and you don't need to be decent about anything. You owe him nothing. Would you be considering the decent thing to do if someone kidnapped your son? Think, I really need to talk to him face to face, its the decent thing to do. No.

SWW

BT she is telling you she is going with her cousin. My brother's exWW took a whole weeks vacation in Virginia Beach, supposedly with her cousin. Then my brother happened to see her cousin at the store and he found out she was really there with her OM and the cousin helped out.

Please do this NOW!!! DO NOT LET THEM GO ON THIS TRIP!!!

I am glad you are going home today too!!!

Don't let her gaslight you either!!!!

Hi, I've been reading this thread and first posting now. BT mentioned the man/roommate situation on May 2, here:

#2366336 - 05/02/10 01:58 PM

To find the OM wife, have you tried zabasearch dot com, or spokeo dot com? Public records might give you an address, and if she's been living there awhile, maybe a phone number.

Good luck.

BT - UR Right, it was mentioned in the 5-2 post. My bad. Thanks Sushi!

I guess I didn't realize for myself that she was serious or it was moving to that. For some reason I understood it more as a passing comment, not a real plan of action. I apologize, had I understood that differently, I would have addressed it more seriously.

I guess for me, as a woman, with young kids, if I needed to leave my house and needed a roommate, no matter how desperate I was for a place, I would not choose to move in with a male "friend". I have male friends, and I do not want them to ever be anything more than that. I know my own weaknesses, and that scenario would be a poor choice of boundaries for me, and I think I can say for anyone in any M/separation.

It shows very poor judgment on her part as the mother of your son. We need to do what is in the best interest of our children, even when that may not be the easiest choice for ourselves. Confusing your son and introducing him to another male is so hurtful and damaging to his development and attachment.

If she ultimately decides to move in with OM, I would fight to my death to keep Son from spending time with W at her home with OM. She can see Son at your (son's) home not with OM. I would then do all I could to bring a legal wedge between OM and W for the sake of Son. Our state has none of those laws but yours might. And if they do, you need to be strong enough to use them.

Divorce reseach suggests that the youngest kids do best when they stay/sleep in their primary home and spend time with other parent in that same environment. That can't always work but that is both in the best interest of your SOn, not to mention any hope of saving your M.

Have a safe flight. My hope for you is that the VAR gives you whatever information you need to confidently to make a move.

Question to other posters - When BT speaks to OM, in person or on phone, would it be worthwhile to use VAR in that exchange (now that he owns one)? Can't hurt I would think and if nothing gained or BT says things he shouldn't, he can delete? But if OM says things W won't admit, worth having? Not sure. Just a thought.

BT update?

k, will try those sites for OMWs number. Kinda ticked I payed for 2 numbers but neither worked, but it was only a couple bucks. Considering I sent letter to Ws Dad w/ check for a hundred with the exposure and asking him for the sake of his daughter and grandson, that he PLEASE get a phone and call, a few bucks is nothing.

Update:

Got hom about 20 mins ago, wife has left for camping trip. All packed up, its verified on Facebook between her cousin and posts from their friends, all going camping.

You guys may be right, probably are, but shes gone now. Oops maybe? I like the idea of this weekend, with free weekend minutes to expose.

When I landed, I texted her. She was there to pick me up with son who was sleeping. I had a huge smile to see her, and she started a big smile when she saw me. We had a nice talk on the way home about what I missed this week, all kinds of stuff with son and her. She has a migraine. I mentioned that I had read this week that tension in shoulders can make headaches worse.

We got to the house, she briefed me on what food was where, where Sons food was etc. I got a pillow and told her to sit down on the chair and gave her a shoulder massage. She got very relaxed, said thank you that feels so good.

When she was ready to leave she gave me a "wife" hug, and said she missed me. Not the friend hugs she has been giving me.

I looked in her eyes, and told her that the last 2 weeks for me have been amazing. That I have been happier and felt more alive than ever before in my life and its because of the changes I am making and the things I am learning. But that as happy as I have been, its a candle to the happiness and love I felt when I saw her again at the airport.

I told her I will always love her and that I hope she can believe that always, no matter what happens.

She said she would try to call and take pictures. Then we tricked son and she left.

Not bad, even if all you guys tell me its gaslighting, it felt nice.

Ok, now to check the VAR, then to get OMWs number, then I have a long weekend of phone calls and facebook messages...

the gist of the "homecoming" is that I think I am Plan A'ing very well. I am much more observant than even before we got married, noticing things to do to help and doing them, I am also being very appreciative and affectionate via verbal compliments and such. I have not violated her boundaries or tried to make her feel uncomfortable. No AO's, DJs, or SDs, and the only IB I been doign is the groudn work to attack this affair and the exposure this weekend.

K, I am going to go check the VAR now... will update soon.

Thanks everyone for your support.

omfg

omfg
omfg

omfgomfgomfgomfgomfgomfomgomfomgofmogmofmogm

What the hell do I do now...

My heart rate is going so fast...

VAR has positive proof.

I am not sure I recognize the voice, might not be OM...

How do I go about verifying that?

Ok, I need to be a father right now. Calling Sh for an appointment, then I am going to try not to think about it too much...

Should I kick her out of the house? I can Plan A for a while once I calm down.

Is hidden VAR evidence from my own house admissable in court?

Should I get a lawyer?

What did it say? Let's start with that.

BT - I am so very sorry for what you have found. I am however happy you got something now that you can't ignore so that you can feel solid about moving forward. Now you have what you need to put a plan into action.

No more waiting. No more fears.

BT I am sorry but please take a couple of deep breaths and let us know what you heard and we can better advise you on what to do next? But please just take a couple of deep breaths.

You can do this!!!!

typing

ok...

VAR only recorded about 6 minutes. It only triggered when the bed was moving...

guess which 6 minutes it caught? It would trigger with the bed moving and record for a while.

It is soul shattering.

There are 7 DISTINCT times when I hear A mans voice or grunts or whatever, and 2 more when I am not sure, and 1 of those instances she asks him to turn the light off, showing that its not the TV since she was talking TO someone.

So yeas, evidence.

I called her friend in CA, exposed, and asked her friend to let her dad know to get a phone right now, and tell him I sent him a check to pay for it that should get there early next week.

I can not even closely positively identify OM as the Mans voice, so I am kinda confused there. I am sure there is a way to get a sample of his voice and have a machine positively match them, but I dont know how to do that and its memorial day weekend. I am considering asking him point blank, since I kinda dont think its him, oddly enough, and ask him if he's willing to provide a voice sample. But I dont know.

Appointment with Jen Harley set up for Tuesday evening, will try get WW (god it hurts to type that... godamnit) to talk too.

When do I confront WW? Should I call her now? I already sent the audio file to my dad and an aunt, so she cant make me get rid of it or recover it.

I was planning to expose this weekend anyway, so I think I will ocntinue to do that.

Its almost 2 pm here, should I call a Lawyer to secure my position now?

I dont want to D, but I dont want this to get away from me because of denial again...

She made this choice not me...

planning to call the radio show this afternoon too, per Elle's suggestion when I made the appointment with Jen

Also, going to continue exposing right now since I planned to do it anyway.

Well that's a smoking gun alright.




Sorry BT.

Page 14 and NOW you believe us?

well, not sure...

I need some advice on how to handle WW right now, should i continue exposing and have her hear that I know from someone else? or should I call her first?

What do I do with suspected OM? The VAR Man doesnt really sound like him the few words he says. So I am not sure...

omg... ouch, it hurts...

Keeping my heart rate around 100 (which is good, it was about 140 while listening to the thing for the first time, normal resting rate is about 70 bpm)

Mark, I deserve that. I know I do.

It still hurts.

Just letting you know...

Your last encounter with her today was a pretty good way to end Plan A and begin Plan B.

Pack her up.

But Chrisner...

Plan B is not a "punishment," its to protect MY love bank.

I am good on LB$ inventory. I still want her. I can Plan A for a while yet. I dont think that would be using Plan B as its intended.

Now maybe Plan B to protect my SON from her? IDK.

Thoughts?

Yes, soul shattering is a good way to put it. BT, i know you won�t believe this right now, but it IS going to be ok. Right now your only job is to try to breathe. You know now. Keep calm even though you want to vomit, and if you do that�s ok too, we�ve all done it.

I remember the same feeling when my WW swore to me it was all over and then I found used condom packets in the bedroom. It is horrible.

Time to breathe and plan. Exposure now is a must and you have all you need. It is the OM you thought it was, don�t worry about computer matching voices and all. Your gut is telling you what you need to know.

Get your exposure letter together and post it. It is actually good she is away this weekend, you can start to process this and do your nuclear exposure and get our advice for dealing with her incredible anger when she finds out and is on her way home.

Keep posting, it�s gonna be ok. Every single one of us has made it through this alive.

SWW

This aint over by a long shot! It is only getting started, but now you have the weapons, the intel and the plan to fight!!!

No plan B now, expose, plan A, reverse babble, it is all coming together just like we said it would.

SWW

My VAR recording put a 25mm round right through the old love bucket. There was nothing left.

But if you can keep going after that it's your choice.

Finish your exposure to all and then call her back home.

BT, so sorry to read this latest development. I know what it was like seeing PICTURES of them together - I can only imagine what it would be like hearing it.

Are you sure you can Plan A for a while? My advice would be - if you think you can, go ahead, but in the meantime get everything ready for a very quick and swift Plan B. Trust me. Your mind can change in a second....you've read my thread so you know how fast it happened for me.

Get going with exposure. It'll be okay. {{{BT}}}

BT listen to SWW, NUCLEAR EXPOSURE and post to get advice on dealing with her anger and fog bable when she finds out.

She is going to be angry but she will get over it. And keep breathing, it will be okay......

BT,

I have to go to the airport to pick up my son. I will be back later. I posted a thread asking some of the vets to check in on you.

Keep breathing dude!

It's time for us all to help you put up the fight you need to put up to save your M.

I told you before, it is going to be alright!

SWW

K, continueing on with Exposure. Calling the Radio Show in 42 minutes, will maybe get more info there.

NP, good point. Yes I am sure I can Plan A for a while, but you are also right. I will start looking up Day Care for my son and consider a lawyer so I can evict her if needed.

BT, I am so sorry.

Remember, BT, she's been wayward for awhile. It was wayward for her to date outside of your marriage.

I know this makes it more tragic, though, and I am so sorry you and your son are having to go through this.

What you need to do is start making Plan B preparations immediately, but don't pull that trigger until you've done a good Plan A, and definitely don't pull that trigger (the Plan B trigger) until you've talked to Steve Harley.

The carrot of Plan A, the stick of Plan A, and the preparations for being able to start Plan B at a moment's notice.

You're going to have a lot of questions for what all that entails. Take it as slow as you need to to get good answers to your questions and make a good plan.

You can do this.

BT you will be okay just keep breathing and keep exposing, the more the better.

Anyone that will HELP you fight for your marriage, if you do not think they will help don't bother telling them.

And find the OMW NOW and expose to her!

I'll be listening for you on the radio show.

Where was your 15 month old son during the recording?

So sorry to see this BT,

**I AM NOT A LAWYER***
I just wanted to note that since you are in NC, you have some extra legal tools at your disposal that most people in these situations dont have access to, including filing with fault under adultery, 'alienation of affection' and 'divorce from bed and board'. Im not sure you are aware of these but it might be important to bear them in mind as you proceed.

Even if you dont want or intend to divorce her, it might be good for her (and OM) to know that you have the power to turn her out of the home with no immediate access to joint money or assets, you will never pay her any alimony, she may have to immediately demonstate the ability to house and support your son or else you could get full temporary custody, her adultery may be considered when assessing permanent custody, and you can sue the OM for millions of dollars and possibly get a RO against him being around your son. All of this can put you in a pretty significant position of power over your situation, which is a luxury I dont think many BSs have.

However, all of these require 'proof by greater weight of the evidence' of physical adultery. My understanding is that you have records of high phone use and a difficult to hear VAR. Im afraid that these might not be sufficient proof, especially if its difficult to make out voices. I will not suggest holding off on exposure since that seems to be the first order of business on these forums, but I dont think any other state has such tough laws that you can employ so people on here may not immediately consider these. I really suggest you talk to a lawyer ASAP to figure out what tools you have at your disposal, and whether you require more concrete evidence of adultery. Im just afraid that once you expose, this could get much more difficult to obtain.

Good luck!

I think you should spend enough time prepping a good list of people to expose to before you start. A really good list. Exposure needs to be a tsunami of truth that overwhelms the affair. EVERYBODY important, all in the same day. Don't trickle it out, and don't jump into it real fast if all you're going to do is trickle it out.

Build it up and then go nuclear.

Feel free to get the other parts of your plans in place, as well.

Just my opinion. You'll be getting lots of opinions.

Stay strong. You can fight this.

BT your son is with you now right?

OMG BT ... I am so SO sorry your in this terrible situation right now. I cant offer any advice but just wanted to let you know that i felt my heart sink and a big ball of stress swell up in my gut when i seen you used a VAR and the outcome it gave you.

You are handling this very well considering the circumstances ... had i been in your shoes i'd prolly be in jail now and someone would be dead.

Be Strong for your son, its time to set off a nuclear explosion of exposure. Hell hath no fury like when a POSOM comes in between a husband and his wife. Use the fuel of your inner rage to SPAM this news to alllll that you can. NOW is the time to fight for your wife and for your son and the happy marriage you long for. You can do this, you CAN restore your marriage and make the affair so ugly to them that they will want to end it.

He was probably sleeping or she might have put him in 1hr day care for the sole purpose of doing this.

I dont know for sure, either way is pretty bad...

Listening to you, man!

Is that your son I'm hearing in the background?

BT,

I will leave the exposure/details advice to the vets, but if Fade is right about NC marital dissolution law, you may want to secure harder evidence than that 6 min of VAR before you expose and before you let your WW know how you found out.

Those are valuable assets you'd want to lock in before you lose the chance.

No "I told you so" from me, just hang in there....

HBS

I'm listening too BT!!!

BT, I haven't posted to you because you seemed adamant to remain clueless about your WW's infidelity. I'm sorry to see that everyone was right about the affair. At least you know now and can proceed with facts in your pocket. You know, of course, that you must now do a nuclear exposure, right? Have you located his wife yet? Because you know the OM is the guy you've suspected all along - WW's just been easing you into the whole thing by calling him her future 'roommate'. FYI, you can type HIS name into people finder engines, and a lot of the sites will bring up associated names. Her name will come up.

You'll be getting plenty of advice - one thing is essential: you must expose this A to every Tom, [censored] & Harry who is anywhere near having influence over your WW and her AP.

And I certainly hope you have explained to your WW that she isn't taking your son anywhere, yes?

Let me tell you, BT, I'm glad to hear your little boy playing so happy. Take care of him. Such a sweet little guy doesn't deserve this ... but he's lucky to have you.

When you do expose, don't tell your wife how you know, okay? You don't know how long this will last or how much more evidence you will need, and you don't want her to cut off any of your sources of information.

Great to hear you on the radio stream. I think I can speak for most posters... WAY TO GO!

I was listening too ... first time ever listening to the radio on there. I think ill be listening more often. I too heard the little one in the background.

My prayers go out for you!

BT, you need to stop being silly. You KNOW who it was so stop acting like you don't. Don't "ask" a liar to tell the truth, tell him you know.


Expose the affair everywhere. Then call up the OM and let him know you have him on tape doing her in his bed. Tell him he is to never contact your wife again.

YOU NEED TO EXPOSE TO HIS WIFE THIS WEEKEND.


Do not "ask" the adulterers if they are having an affair. TELL THEM you know. When you expose the affair, simply say that "my wife and Joe Scumbag are having an affair and I have the recorded evidence of them having sex in my bed on May 25, 2010. Her plan was to leave me and get an apartment with him."

Don't equivocate or qualify. Say it straight out.

What did Dr Harley say, BT?

just a brief post to say...

If you choose you could tell her you had a nannycam in the bedroom and you fully intend to send the video file to everyone you two know if she doesn't come home NOW.

Don't give away the VAR. Just stick to the story that you've got a video of her and OM having sex and it's hidden in a safe spot for release when you need it. You'll be able to verify you have it by repeating a few of the things you heard on the VAR. Fortunately, a nanny cam...just like the VAR doesn't time stamp the intelligence so neither way will you be forced to come up with an exact time (though try to figure out what's on the Television so you can figure out what show is on and get a time and maybe a date).

Mr. W

Same thing you did but a lil nicer, and some info on recovery and how Plan A is important, not to attack and AO etc etc

Yes it was my son, we went outside so the dog could occupy him while I was distracted on phone.

Ok, I will continue assuming its OM. Going to block his number on my wifes phone right now.

Talked to a lawyer right now. The judge can apparently decide whatever he/she wants, and the infedelity only comes into play on the alimony thing. Calling another lawyer about the "alienation of affection" thing.

BT, you're doing it again. Of course it's OM! Are you kidding me?

The OM is with her, isn't he?

kkk, I got it, assuming its OM

Ok

Exposure list

WGrandma (done)
Best friend in CA1 (done)
my dad, my aunt (have copies of the voice thing)
going through the rest of my phone to call all the family i have numbers for

Also, I have been checking her friends on facebook and will be sending a message to approximately 80 of them as well.

OMW I am going to pay a bit more into the search engines to contact her tonight if possible.

OM should be home with his wife this weekend, per my WW.

I suppose when I call her tonight (assuming the internet coughs up her number) I will find out for sure.

Waywards lie, BT. Don't believe anything that comes out of her mouth. And Do Not tell her that you are exposing this!

These are all very minor hits. What about her parents?

Frankly, I would devote your time to getting the OMW's phone # and do the most effective exposures first. Can you contact that PI agency I referenced on the spying 102 thread and get the wife's name and his parents?

Where is your wife? Where does this cousin live? I have no doubt they are together. The fact that your W told you this means nothing.

Hi BT,
I'm sorry that you had to hear your evidence. I know it hurts as I got mine the same way and I must say that you are handling it far better than I did.

My problem was that I didn't want to give up my source. I was still foggy and wanted to believe WW when she said it was over. I had to continue to use my VAR to verify for myself that the A was still active, and I did. WW still denied the A until it was pointless and to my knowledge still claims she ended the A.

That said, I had to continue Plan A in the face of her lies. I now know that she will continue to lie about the A until there is solid NC for a while.

Keep you chin up, you're doing great. Like G.I. JOE used to say...."And Knowing is Half the Battle."

BT, go to www.peoplefinders.com and type in OM's name. This will bring up info on him as well as associated names. You will find his BW's name there, as well as other names. Those other names are people you should expose to as well.

BT of course it is OM and i bet they are together now as well.

You have to find OMW NOW, i suggest the same as maritalbliss.

That or zabasearch and contact all of them.

Agree with Mel, you have to find OMW!!!

Oh! I forgot to add. When I heard OM (briefly) on my VAR, he sounded different to me than on the phone. My OM sounded a lot younger on the VAR.

Listen to the forum! Where have they been wrong yet?

There IS the possibility that it might be another OM. There's no "law" saying that a WW must be involved with only one OM at a time.

I like the nannycam idea, ML. I'd go further and suggest that BT actually purchase one (CASH!) and set it up so he can "show" WW where it was hidden when it supposedly recorded what it did...

So sorry for the turn of events BT. Like you, I refused to believe that my FWW would actually involve herself in an A, even though the evidence at times was clearly pointing to that.

My VAR did time stamp the recording.

You might want to get the sheets from that bed and store them somewhere. I think you have said you have not slept in it for a while. There may be multiple signs of evidence there.

MiM you are correct, it could be a different OM.

I too like the nanny cam idea.....

Not a bad idea either......

I can recommend cameras from www.spycameras.com. We have bought two at different times - optional voice microphone (I can't speak to the legalitieis of the voice but there are laws restricting voice).

Our model = Covert Wi-Fi Digital Wireless Web Camera with recording & remote access - External Pinhole Camera = $289.00
- First web camera with pinhole lens,
- Allow remote viewing & record (motion activated) from anywhere anytime.
- Single IP for multiple camera control.
- No need for 3rd party software. (9Ch camera software included)
- 1 Way audio (optional) = +$50

We bought the WiFi pinhole option from the above site. You can get it already housed in a case (nanny cam style) such as a clock or air purifier. But we bought the raw pinhole camera with microphone and installed it in a plant/decoration. Needs a plug in for the camera but works off of a wireless internet signal AND ALLOWS YOU TO WATCH REMOTELY FROM ANY INTERNET CONNECTION. I am watching my nanny as I type. We had reservations about buying them at first but I for one am SO happy we did and have no regrets. I think HBS would agree now even though he was hesitant at first. And we have told our nanny we were installing it. She was fine with it. Obviously, your WW would not feel the same way.

You do need a wireless router for the wifi to work but being able to access from any computer (even my blackberry phone can get the streaming feed with a special additional app I bought).

I highly recommend. They do ship overnight fast if you buy the option.

It is at least a great site to reseach cameras on if the WiFi is not an option for you.

And don't forget to stop, take some breaths, and enjoy your son some and let him fill your LB a little during this process. It will be good for both of your souls.

Hey BT,

You are getting good advice here. I like the nanny cam idea, but i think i would hold off on contacting your wife with that idea right now, you know what she has been up to. Finish your exposure, i agree with Mel, you are not hitting some important targets, her parents, the wife if you can get it.

Also, her work, and since OM works with you, your work friends and his. Shame the heck out of both of them.

Sorry I couldn't hear you on the radio but sounds like you are doing good for now. I wouldn't worry right now about buying more spy stuff today, you have more evidence than most ever have already. Now is the time for exposure and getting your Plan A stuff together and getting help with dealing with her anger.

She is gonna be so mad, hopefully.

SWW

K, exposed to her mom, grandma, grandpa, uncle, 2/3 best female friends, 4 other female friends, uncle should be emailing me a list of further relatives soon.

Work knows but not who the OM is yet, I am not sure who I trust over there besides one guy who knows and will call me later tonight. He might be looking to get OM fired.

I hear you guys on the spy stuff.

Here is my dilemma. I feel if I get more spy stuff, then I will have to "hope" they do it again so I can catch them. I am not kidding myself that it will just suddenly stop, however, I want no part in its continuing. To me that includes setting traps. I plan to continue making liberal use of the VAR, mostly in her car now because she probably wont do it in our room anymore.

I want to expose. I want to Expose and Plan A and fight for my marriage, I dont want to "wait" for them to do it again.

Does this make sense?

Found out OMW lives in different state then I thought, that the numbers I have might be old...

Will redo search here as soon as son is asleep.

for exposing

slight T/J here... I often read about people exposing and wonder if one day I'll get one of those emails... "Lil, xxx is having an affair"

Stranger things and all that

[/TJ]

Baby down, now I can get on this some more

BT,

My comment was not intended to kick you while you were down. I know how much this hurts. I also know that since you had such a hard time believing it without this evidence it probably hurts even more.

When we find out that the person we love most in life, the very person we have entrusted our heart to has betrayed us in this way, we lose all sense of trust. We no longer trust our wife, now known to be a cheating wife, we don't trust our friends, work acquaintances and others in our life. Most of all, we no longer trust ourselves. We lose the ability to trust our own instincts and ability to judge others rightly.

My comment was more for those who might stumble upon this place, read your thread because it strikes a cord and in spite of what they know is true prefer to believe that their wife (or husband) would never do such a thing.

You're getting very good advice concerning the beginning of the stick of Plan A. Exposure is the greatest single weapon you can use against an affair. Keep in mind that just as when a nuclear bomb is used on the battlefield, there will be a great deal of fallout from exposure. Some will begin to choose sides and unfortunately not all of them will choose your side, though anyone who values marriage most likely will.

But additional fallout will occur as well. The most impactful to you will be the reaction of your wife. She is likely to be madder than you even thought possible and will say things that will have you alternating between wanting to punch her in the face and run away screaming. In some cases, a spouse once exposed will instantly have the fog begin to lift and begin to realize what damage they have wrought. Unfortunately that is a very small percentage. In most cases, the former reaction is the one you are likely to get.

Know and understand that the greater the reaction, no matter what direction it takes, the greater the damage done to the affair by exposure. Fear of losing the source of their addiction is what makes an addict react violently when anyone threatens that source. The greater the outrage, the greater the fear of losing the drug. So if she is really angry, she is really afraid of losing her affair.

Don't forget the other parts of the stick, though. Anything you can do that makes the affair less viable gives you an edge. At the same time, begin to formulate a PLAN that begins to demonstrate to her that the marriage is a better option by focusing on the carrot side of Plan A. Identify her ENs and do whatever you can to meet them and keep your own anger under control. Expect nothing in return for all your efforts and realize that you need to make yourself into the best BT you can become. Become the man she doesn't want to lose while making the OM expendable as too high of a cost for the benefit to be received.

Anything you can do to get in the way of contact is to your benefit, so look for ways to stand between her and OM at every opportunity. Without making your son a pawn in a game of struggling over who gets their way, be sure that you demonstrate the value you hold in the concept of family and make your battle cry one of saving your family from attack. Be a dad, husband, care giver, provider and shelter for your wife to return to. Make it easier for her to work on the marriage than to end it and remember that until she has had NC with OM for a while you can't really do anything to fix it. You must save your marriage first and try to fix it later. The house is on fire. Put out the fire and worry about what color the bedroom will be once the ashes cool.

Also remember that your enemy is not your wife. It is the affair that is the enemy of your marriage. Fight the affair without fighting against her. You can't win her back by making her life miserable when she is around you and safe when she is with OM. It needs to be turned around the other way. Make home with you a good place to be and with OM a frantic, hurried, paranoid experience that removes any and all pleasure.

A bull ride only has to last eight seconds. I'm afraid this is going to last a bit longer. So mount up, strap in, hang on, it's going to be a wild ride for a while.

Cowboy up!

Mark

Ok, intellius is broken apparently..

thanks mark, I hearyou loud and clearn, I am exposing all over the place. Working on the work angle, OM might get fired for this.

I listened to it again with headphones on and such, and I can tell its him.

No doubt about it.

(cursing)

I need to stop listenin to this for a little bit...

so much rage...

BT, no I don't understand what you mean. You don't wait for them to do it again, but you continue to spy your [censored] off so you can a) stop them if they don't end contact and b)expose again.

When the dust settles, I would DEMAND that she end all contact. If he sets FOOT in your house or around your child, I would call the police and file a restraining order against him.


"Trust" to do what? I would tell everyone at work and even report this to Human Resources. This scumbags affair with your wife has placed you in a horrible position at work.

How far away is your wife, BT?

OMG YAY!! found OMWs number, called it got Voice

Uncle says he talked to other uncle, none of whose kids are here in NC.

Yeah.. she is out with him right now...

ouch.

I dont know how else to say it, I feel broken inside and keep tasting bile. I wish I was one of those people who can just break stuff and feel better...

Ok, IDK how far away wife is. She is camping with a "cousin" who according to her family, all cousins are in Montana or in ND, and I KNOW she isnt going there.

I have no idea where she is now, but the only plus side is that I KNOW where THEY BOTH are so can operate freely without interference.

Need OMW to answer.

Ok, what I mean with the spy stuff, I plan to keep up with the VAR and planting it in places and not telling her HOW I know, just that I do. I just dont see the point in catching her again. I already know what she is doing, and so does she. Does it serve some purpose?

Her family is pissed at her. Her mom cheated on her dad (their brother) several times and they are all just pissed. Wow, even her Mom is upset with her. This is already nuclear, though I am not done yet.

Good, you should me MAD! Now harness that and use it! Keep up the exposure to kill the affair! I hope OM does get fired.

He has been sleeping with your wife since you lived with him BT.

After exposure is prepping for your attitude and response to your WW when she hears and is outraged.

She was gone BT, was telling you what she needed "because little BT would need it once you were D" because she and the OM were going to move in together. Now you know and you can slay this dragon.

You have the control now even though it doesnt feel like it.

SWW

I think you are gonna make it!

SWW

Yes, you will need to spy so you will know what they are doing. Once she gets back, you will need to DEMAND that she never see him again. You will have to spy in order to ensure that she keeps no contact.

And he is to NEVER EVER set foot on your premises again or come around your child. The fact that this SNAKE has been in your home, YOUR BED ............

You can also use the intel to bust her [censored] to the moon if this ever gets to court. I guess you are in a state where evidence of adultery makes a huge difference.

BT, when you get ahold of his wife, I woild present this the way I told you above. Tell her straight out that her H is having a sexual affair with your wife and she is planning on shacking up with him. Ask her to give you his parents information so you can call them.

BT, will they speak to her? If not, then all this exposure is a waste. Please ask these people to speak to her and use their persuasion to influence her to end her affair.

YOU ARE DOING GREAT AND ARE GOING TO MAKE IT. I want to applaud you for stepping up to the plate and defending your marriage and your son.

Keep up the good work, BT.

And send her the dadgum recording too!

SWW

Again BT sorry, but way to go on exposure !!!

Mark's advice was great, read it many times over and start making your plans to plan A your butt off even though you will not get anyting in return and plan on her being PI$$ED off.

And if uncle confirmed they are still together, then the OMWs needs to know, so keep trying to get in touch with her. As soon as that happens, you can pretty much bet that your WW will be calling you mad as a hornet.

And i agree about the other spying stuff too, you already know, now all you need is to keep snooping to make sure she is not lying to you about NC.

And demand NC PERIOD..........

Just keep breathing and doing what you are doing.

on the phone with OMW...

she had no idea about any divorce, OM is not with her as he told us, she thought he was working this weekend.

No Surprise Here BT! You have just been handed a wonderful gift!

SWW

Agree with SWW on using the rage to slay the dragon.

But definitely do stop listening to it for a bit. You don't want your rage to get the better of you if/when you talk to your WW.

Ditto, WAY TO GO BT!!!!

DIRECT HIT!!

Ok, told her basically what you guys said, sex, affair, we compared notes, she had an idea something was up, but now knows, shes a social worker, wow...

So they are out together.

WW has called me twice while I was on the phone.

I also told everyone I talked to many times, especially when they tried to say "well I will call her whenever you say" and I made sure to say, no no no, thats the point, call her, by tomorrow I will have confronted her and its game on.

I need to write a lot of facebook letters.

You are doing great, BT! Just keep up the pressure.

Can you get the names of the OM's parents and expose to them?
You might be able to find them on the OMW's facebook page, if she has one.

Also, don't you work with the OM? Are you planning on exposing at work? Since you work with him, that is something that should be brought to the attention of HR. This would be a problem at my own company.

Because exposure is working!

SWW

BT, please don't answer the phone when your wife calls. I suspect she is getting calls about your exposure and is calling to find out. If you don't answer you will ruin her weekend wtih the OM. They will be flipping out wondering what is happening. The more people who call her tonight and tomorrow the better.

RUIN their weekend with your exposure!

Doesn't it feel GREAT to be in a NUCLEAR EXPOSURE? You are doing GREAT my friend. AWESOME.

Remember, no apologizing and no LBing. You will be a broken record when you talk to her. "I will do what I have to for the good of our marriage." Don't engage a wayturd.

Work knows. I think they want to fire him.

We are having a problem with "hostile work enviroment" and they are looking for excuses to fire some people. He is one of them.

Doesnt look good for OM.

I can ask OMW for numbers to OMs family, but she said she would be telling everyone. I dont know what to say.

I also am not sure if WW is just calling to ask how Son did tonight.

I guess I will know if she shows up at the house, but I am not done exposing.

Apparently, you cant send more than like 8 messages through facebook without getting blocked for abuse...

/sigh

Scotland, I wish I could say yes, that it feels great.

Mostly I just feel sick.

5 years, countless professions of undying love, death of our son, the last 15 months with our 2nd son, staying with me through a 9 month deployment and 2 moves, and all those years of me being an emotional basket case and she stuck by me.

All those times she talked with my friends, her friends, her and my family, about how important marriage was and how its such BS that people throw it away over nothing nowadays.

After she watched her mom cheat on her dad over and over before they divorced...

I am mostly just sick.

To my stomach.

I guess it feels a little bit LIBERATING to get it all out in the sunlight... but definately not good.

Sorry.

Keep the expectations under control, BT!

And keep moving forward toward your goal...

I am sorry if you took it the wrong way. I just mean that it will feel better as you move forward.

My WH stopped talking to his own sister for more than 4 years because she had an affair. He was disgusted with his parents because as he was growing up, BOTH his parents had affairS and he was exposed to their APs. He always told me that he would NEVER do that to his children. Well, I guess he was WRONG.

It is a bad feeling for now but I PROMISE that yo0u WILL NOT feel bad about doing this today. I know the only thing I regret about my EXPOSURE was that it wasn't NUCLEAR.

Have you notified them OFFICIALLY of his adultery with your wife? That is what I would do, BT. Lodge a formal complaint against him for having an affair with your wife.

Make as much trouble as possible for this scumbag.


This is good. BT, she does know your name and #, right?


I THINK you have to space them out a couple of minutes.

Totally understand BT, D-day was the worst day of my life, but you are doing great!!!

And i think Scotland only meant the feeling of letting it out to help end the affair......

You are in GREAT hands here listen to these people, they know their stuff.....

No I dont take these things bad, I was just expressing myself honestly. I dont feel good. Its ok. I think I get what you mean, and regardless what you guys post...

YOU POST

and it means a lot to me and helps me keep my head up.

Mark, my expectations are crazy right now. I DO NOT expect her to do anything rational for a long time.

Work.. I am talking to his sup regularly. Will call him in a sec.

BT, how did you end up finding the OMW?

BT,

She is just sick right now. If she had cancer and was still sneaking smokes you would rip them from her hand right?

OM is just like the smokes.

Dr. Harley says we are all hard wired to have affairs. I believe him.

Your WW is a garden variety cheating wife that had, I say had because of your guts to expose, a fantasy. Nothing more.

SWW

Just remember to keep breathing.

No matter what happens you will be okay even though right now you just want to puke.........

I found OMW because I remembered the town they live in and that it was NOT in SC, but rather NC, then it was a matter of time.

holy crap...

the officer in charge of the school I work for, and the senior civilian are coming over to talk...

God I dont want to let them listen to my wife screwing someone...

I want to swear so much...

What is this about, BT?

You don't have to let them listen, just tell them you have recorded proof.

keep breathing BT and think about your son.

You are doing fine just keep your head straight.

SWW, thank you so much for that...

I need to hold on to that.

She quit smoking for me. WW did. Cold turkey. Saw the look on my face right after we first met when she lit one up, quit, right then. Maybe 3 cigarettes during a relapse over 5 years. Once when I was deployed, once when she was out with my friends from back home drinking and many of them were smoking. Once when she was out with friends in CA.

Told me about all 3, crying, sorry she had lied to me and broke a promise...

Course, she started smoking the last month at the friends house before we moved into our house, but she quit once we moved in again. Said she didnt care what I thought anymore, that she was doing what she wanted...

I wish so much that I had been more attentive.

I know I am not at fault for her decision to do this, but I do wish I hadnt contributed to an enviroment that made it possible.

Well that is what plan A is for....

This is great news BT. Military guy speaking here. You don�t have to play the tape for them ok, just let them know you have it and that the OM is wrecking your life.

They are gonna take this very seriously. Just stay cool.

You want them to take action to stop a hostile work environment that is wrecking your life. While this isn�t their fault per se, do not back down or apologize for exposing if that�s the way they are going.

This OM is an employee of theirs and so are you. You have proof!

You have proof! And they had better put a stop to this or you are gonna talk to their superiors.

SWW

BT,

You are doing good my man. I'm sorry to hear your suspicions being confirmed, but it is better to know exactly what you are dealing with.

So how are the exposures going? I know it's tough, but remember why you are doing it. Keep your eye on the ball and remember your goal in this whole thing. We are with you.

BT
"holy crap...

the officer in charge of the school I work for, and the senior civilian are coming over to talk..."

Off the PC since this morning, wow!

Have they seen you yet?

Has WW tried to call you anymore tonight?

Red flag!

WW goes away without telling you were she will be.

Sorry BT, i dont believe her. Maybe I am wrong.

SWW

You stay cool right now ya hear?

You tell the CO and senior exec very calmly you are upset, that you are going to try to save your marriage and that you have proof that OM has been screwing your wife.

You do NOT get into MB stuff with them ok? Your position is that you are upset, you are trying to save your marriage, that one of THEIR emplyees and a fellow COWORKER or yours has gone behind your back and you are upset!!!!

No backing down. Calm, Steely gaze!

Do It BT.

SWW

I see absolutely no reason to purchase additional spyware. You've got the proof YOU need.

EXPOSE NOW. You know who it is. Your WW isn't screwing more than one person. You know that. Act, don't re-act.

MB, he already exposed the affair. He found the OMW and is now speaking to the top Army guys where he works.

thanks mel you beat me to the punch.....

She needs to come home. Now. Tell her you've got something important she needs to hear. I'm sure that will bollix up the weekend she's got going with OM. Good. Because you know that's more than likely who she's with, right?

Ok, I didnt back down, I told them I do NOT want to share the sounds of my wife c***** on some other man with anyone.

I told them about OMWs corraberating statements.

Amazingly, the OIC (officer) remembered OM pointing out a campground 1/2 hr away. So they took off to go check it out, will know more in about a half hour.

I told them the evidence, the phone calls, that I am positive its his voice, that I know its him.

I told them if you have a 500 pc puzzle, you can be missing one piece and still know what the picture is.

Deputy said that well, the only definitive proof is if one of them admits to that, and we probably wont get that so we cant expect it.

I think they want to catch them, but I dont really care.

I am not allowing him around my son or my family, I really dont care what they do.

On top of that, he is a contractor, a temporary worker filling a temporary position, with a group that has already had 3 people fired out of I think 15-20 employees, and that company is ANXIOUS to avoid attention.

I dont plan to let them listen.

You mean...the OM was...gasp...lying?????Yep. My M was supposedly over, too - imagine my surprise.

I dont want her to come home.

Not yet...

The OIC and Deputy are going out to the only campground within a half hour that OM even mentioned to the OIC about 2 weeks ago.

They might be there.

That would be quite interesting...

Either way, I know, so thats what matters to me.

Also, regardless, I guess the guys contract company says he is done already, so he dont have work here anymore, and OMW, when I told her, said, well, he should have thought of that...

Son, I think you may just save your marriage.

ok...

I dont know what to do

I dont want to sit alone and think...

I feel very angry, stemming from 3 out of 4 sources, hurt, betrayal, frustration. Not sure if I feel guilt. I feel some guilt for not being a better husband, but I dont feel like that is at all attached to what she did. I dont feel like her affair is my fault at all. I just want to be a better husband.

Plan A I guess...

What do I do now guys?

.....
feel sick still.

BT you are in quite capable hands, just continue with your goal in mind, you are saving your marriage. You only do marriage, you don't do divorce.

I am signing out for the night.

Good luck and keep us posted.....

I don't think you can realize right now just how great you are. You, sir, are a WARRIOR. Well done! I would like to think that, if I had the adultery bone in me, my H would do exactly what you are doing in order to save me from myself.

Nicely done, BT!

Lets please call him SIR SON, now. He changed from a serf to a knight tonight. It wasn't fun, but he did what had to be done.

I just read your other post, you are fine......

I know you don't want to see her right now, but if you do just keep your cool do not get angry (and i know that will be difficult and i did get angry on my D-day).

ITA. I sneaked cigarettes for I don't know how long and got away with it.

thank you Crazy, and also maritalbliss.

I hope I am great.

WW told me again about 2 weeks ago that I could NEVER be someone that she could be happy with. That I am just not good enough.

She is the only person who has told me that.

Not one single person I have exposed to has said it.

I exposed short and sweet "she is having an affair, I have proof, help me kill it."
But if they asked questions, I answered. If they asked "well was something going on?" I owned up to my side. I didnt stint at all.

But every single one of them said,
"but you didnt cheat on HER right?"
"Well, then she shouldnt have done that, especially with you willing to work on the marriage."

Her whole family is PISSED. I hope they dont abandon her, I have called a few times and said that, "dont leave her hanging, be her friends and family, help me repair this marriage."

I guess I can hope and dream it will work out.

At this point, I dont really believe it will, I cant see how it could, but I DO know that what I am doing is the right thing. That keeps me going.

I am doing the right thing, by my son, and for my marriage.

Got it - posting too fast -

BT, I know you feel sick, but be assured you have done more to save your marriage tonight in the last 4 hours than in the last 4 months. You stepped up to the plate when it needed to be done. Now you know you can count on yourself to stand up when need be.

Your wife is going to be furious when she finds out you have ruined her affair. I would prepare for this by not allowing yourself to get upset, scared, manipulated or baited into a fight. You must look at her as you would a crack head who is enraged that you brought in a crowd of onlookers to watch them get high. You have ruined her high. You have taken the booze away from the falling down drunk.

The hardest part is yet to come, I am sorry to say. But, I really do think you have it in you to withstand the worst. Hang on the for the ride, friend. We are to help you through.

Yes, ma'm, he has earned the "Sir". I was initially skeptical, since he was just so darned accommodating to his WW. But hotdamn did he step up to the plate! Whew! I'm fanning the sweat off, just thinking about it. You go, BT!

It certainly can work out and there are many people on here who can attest to that....


As Mel said hang on the ride has yet begun, but listen to them they know their stuff.

You have done great tonight!!!!

BT, the next watch outs will be to not react to her anger and to NOT leave your home or allow her to take your boy away from his home. If she tries to kick you out, tell her no thank you. If she threatens to move out in the night with the boy, tell her she is free to go, but she is not free to take your boy from his safe home without a court order and a sheriff with a bigger gun than yours.

Let her know you will not cooperate with any divorce scheme and if she files, you will countersue for adultery - let her know in your state that she will get no alimony. And that you will sue for primary custody of the child and possession of the home. [other fathers from your state on this board have recieved this]

The point is not to be mean, but to BURST HER FANTASY. Your wife believes that she can replace you with the OM. Your job is to disabuse her of this notion.

Once you lay this out to her, then present her with the CARROT of Plan A. Tell her you are willing to forgive her and work on having a great marriage if she ends her affair and participates in MB coaching with you. Let her know you love her and are willing to give her an opportunity to EARN your forgiveness.

God Bless you for standing up for your son, BT!! He has a father he can be proud of.

Oh Man BT,

I was going to post igrips, but saw your's and well deflating.

I think you need to back off here, okay. I know this is an extremely emotionally day for you. The reality is that You are the deciding factor in your life and your marriage. I feel that, no matter the good intentions BT, that you are being whiplashed around by so many opinions, The only two people who are going to decide that fate of you, your wife, your marriage, and your family are you and your W.

So, I am putting myself in your shoes. My wife did have an affair, but there was never anything in our home. So, there are some who could tolerate that, most husbands in my opionion could not.

BT I think the major issue now is to confront her when she gets back. It seems like you have just a couple of days to prepare for that, but belive me this is your best chance.

BT, imho, you will need to expose suddenly like a missle and you will also need to confront the suspected OM suddenly also.

Also, I would consult with the best attourney you can find to be advivesed of your rights as a father and a husband.

BT, I respect what MB and the advocates here are trying to do, but I I was in your situation, my wife bringing a lover into my HOme, god that would be the end. Imho, this is the most evil thing that a woman could to. I thank God that I never ever had to face that BT.

I was going to post to another tongit but when i saw your situation, well I just wanted to focus on you.

Also, BT, recognize the people who are truely concerned, as opposed to those who may upset you and may be on here for their own selfishness. I.e., stay close to Melody, SDCW, Petals, Markos, and some others, and stay away from new people here who do not know what they are doing, and the bitter people in life like Mai Mai.

Man BT I am going to pray for you hard tonight that you make the right decision now for your son and you.

Tom

thanks Mel

I DO want to see her.

I wont AO or anything...

but I dont trust her. Drugs are bad m'kay...

thanks Tom.

I think I get you about how you would be done.

I dont know what to say

I love my wife, commitment is commitment.

BT,

Also, Marital Bliss, forgot, she seems to be a reg here but good. You are an intellegent guy, so the ball is in your court as far as who you listen to and what YOU decide based on your morales.

That is exactly the right approach, BT. She is absolutely untrustworthy right now. That can change, but I think you can see now how very untrustworthy she is. As long as you approach her like that, you will be fine.

Go by her ACTIONS, ignore her words and you will be fine.

Hey Tom, he is already a step ahead of you. He has consulted an attorney and he has done a nuclear exposure tonight. He found the OM's wife and exposed to her. He exposed to friends and family and he exposed to their bosses at work. He has done an outstanding job tonight.

HI BT,

I just finished reading through your thread.

I'm so sorry for what you are going through.

You're doing a great job w/ exposure. I just hope you are ready for the rage you are going to see from WW. If you look back at how "nice" she was when you were leaving, when you were away, and when she was leaving...it was b/c she was getting her addiction met. So be prepared for the angriest you have EVER seen her when she comes home. You have just taken away her drug.

And please move back into your bedroom TONIGHT. If SHE doesn't want to sleep w/ you, let her sleep on the couch. Time to reclaim your bedroom!

I guess you'll want to toss out the mattress, though.

ok...

now what?


nearly positive OM is getting fired.

My boss called him, asked him if he was in town, OM said no, boss asked if he was in Home town with his family, OM said yes, Boss said, Hope I didnt disturb your family, OM said no they are fine...

Obviously Boss already knew from OMW that OM is not in fact in town with his family. Boss is convinced.

Boss went ahead and told OM that an employee has some pretty damning evidence that OM is sleeping with the employee's wife. Boss said OM acted very odd and abnormally to this news, and kinda laughed it off.

So they know.

WW sent a text asking why her mother left a message bawling her eyes out.

Ok...

so they know, do I call WW and ask to speak to OM, tell OM never to come around again, then tell WW to come home?

I am pretty much good on exposure. All her friends and most of her family except her father know, and he will soon enough.

I already moved into my bedroom again, most of my stuff is back in there again.

SWEET!! I got another one right!, thanks marsh

need thoughts on that quickly please...

Do I call WW and OM now that they know? Boss gave it away that I have evidence and stuff, they should know. I dont want to leave WW out there all weekend nailing him...

ITA with Marsh be prepared, she is going to be PI$$ED, she is going to say horrible things to you to try to make you angry. It is not going to be pretty so be prepared.

Your mantra is i only discuss marriage, i understand but i only discuss marriage...........

BT, call her up and tell her that everyone knows about the affair and knows she is with OM. Tell her that OM's wife knows, his boss, her mother, everyone. Tell her the gig is up.

Then tell her goodbye. Don't demand anything, just leave it like it that. Don't answer her calls if she calls back.

In the meantime, move back in your room. She can sleep on the couch. You should not be the one who is put out of his room over her filthy affair.

I doubt there will be anymore nailing. You've just ruined their weekend. He'll be heading home to try to patch things up w/ his W. And WW will be coming home to chew you out! And see what kind of hell she can make for you.

They've just been busted, so that's likely not going to happen. More likely they're freaking out at the moment over the exposure.

ITA with Mel.....

Tell her this: THERE WAS A NANNY CAM IN THE HOUSE AND WE ALL KNOW NOW. Don't tell her anything more.

remember she is going pi$$ed be prepared, DO NOT ENGANGE in her anger and DO NOT leave your home no matter what she says and do not let her take your son.

Read this again.....

Bt,

Simply I had a hard time keeping up with what you have done and been thru in your posts. But now that I see, you have a guradian Angel. Her name is Melody
Man BT, tonight my prayers for
you . That is all I can do now.

Tom

BT,

I mentioned it and Marsh just mentioned it again. I am going to lay it out for you another time because I'm not convinced you understand what we're saying to you.

When you next talk to your wife, she is not going to be mad. She is going to be a raving lunatic bordering on homicidal. She is going to tell you some combination of these things: "I was thinking about trying to work this out, but now you have ruined any chance of that." "How could you do such a thing and involve another man's wife in our problems?" "Great. So now you've got my family turning against me. Do you really think they won't see through your lies and learn the truth that you are controlling and abusive and....(insert whatever kind of words you think might come out when she spits here)..." "You don't get it. I don;t love you any more/haven't loved you in ___years and will never love you." "I never really loved you."

Understand something here BT. She has been lying to you all along. Don't bother to try to believe she is telling the truth now. She is going to call you names you didn't know she could verbalize. She will talk of hating you, of wishing you were dead and all sorts of things that will cut you to your very soul. As quickly as you can, express to her that you are fighting to save your family and then get into some quiet place, even if there is nowhere to go to, focus on yourself and pretty much let her anger burn out.

Do NOT discuss the state of your marriage with her while she is raging. Do NOT try to talk to her about MB while is so venomous. (Yes, as already stated you can tell her you know about her dirty affair but are willing to forgive her and work with her to build a great marriage using coaching and counseling. Don't try to educate her to MB yet, OK?

Breathe. Focus. Remain calm. Control your own anger. Do NOT let yourself blow up at her. Do NOT even move toward her in a threatening way. Crazy wayward wives tend to try to provoke you into doing something threatening so they can call the cops.

I know you love your wife, BT. Just remember that she might still be in there somewhere, but right now an alien is in charge of her mind. The alien is the one who is talking.

Did I mention that all aliens are liars? They are not capable of telling the truth.

Mark

Oh, and have your recorder ready when she gets home... you'll want to record your conversation w/ her in case she tries to pull something and call the police to fabricate a story about you.

She won't be the first WW who has pulled that on their BH.

Be ready!

Marsh,

Are we using the same brain tonight or something?

Mark

LOL

They always use the same script.

Incoming post, please stick around and read it...

Brilliant !

Ok, so... OIC and Deputy basically caught them. Not in the act, but word trap, and OM admitted it to the OIC.

So now I have that evidence.

I called OM, he didnt answer.

I called WW. She answered. I told her I thought she should come home. She said Oh really? You can tell me what to do now?

She said things like:

I cant believe you called my family first and didnt have the balls to confront me.
You knew I was leaving you, I told you in September.
You dont own me.
I cant believe you would do this.
I was gonna leave you already.
What did you tell my mom, do you know how upset you made her? I cant believe you would do that to her!

Lots of that.

I mostly said:

I love you, I want you to come home, I dont trust you, but I want us to work on this.
WW, you have left your son to sleep here without you so you could go out with OM.
Everyone knows WW. Everyone. Your friends and family, mine, everyone. Its not a secret anymore.
When she said she might come home tomorrow I told her to think about her son and her family.

Then I called OM again, he answered, I said flat out:
Hi, I want to be clear, you are not welcome at my house, around my family or my son. I dont control what my wife does but I dont want to see you on my property or around my son.
He said, "ok" and hung up.


Ok, OM still doesnt know that OMW knows. She asked me not to relay that. She 100% ID'd him on the audio. OM is also fired from his job, and the friend (who is a friend of mine) is not going to allow him to stay at his house anymore. OMW I think plans to change the locks tomorrow. So OM doesnt really have many places to go. I wonder if WW will head off with him.