Marriage Builders®
I am starting a new thread.

I have found a voice. I am taking my first steps out of shame.

More to come later.
Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
I am starting a new thread.

I have found a voice. I am taking my first steps out of shame.

More to come later.

Looking forward to hearing your story, LOG.
I too am looking forward to hearing your story and being able to help wherever needed. laugh
OK - so just got a very angry and threatening call from my husband who is watching my posts. He has threatened me that if I post anything here or do or say anything to anyone, he will post something on his thread somewhere about me and it will ruin any possible chance at any recovery we might have ever had. He demanded my "proof" of what I have typed. I told him I was not going to engage in that type of exchange. He told me he will post something MelodyLane and someone else told him not to post but now he will. He is very angry at me.

Now what?
LOG, I have not told your H anything. You go right ahead and post away!
Sorry. Guess I can't post right now. Husband is panicking. Got two phone calls from close friends who now know of situation and he is frantic at home. He is home alone with kids right now. I must head home.
Melody, I'm as angry as I've ever been right now. I did say that to my wife, when what I should have said was that Fred had told me, after talking to you about about trying to snoop on my wife, not to keep posting and engaging with her. I apologize.


I did call my wife, and am angry. I am not a porn addict, and have not been online for porn in almost 10 years. I have viewed pornography over the last several years 3-4 times a year. I have not engaged in any other conduct, and I told my wife I'd take a polygraph tomorrow, and meant it. Also said she was taking one too.

I have sat on this forum and tried to make my marriage work for six weeks, counseling weekly with Sandy. I have been advised to avoid engaging with my wife's lies and half-truths to skew things in her favor. I came to this forum and posted on my flaws and sought guidance and advice. My wife came to this forum and also posted on my flaws.

I welcome any questions, and am literally stunned about how she plans to offer proof of something that didn't happen.

I have had long talks with the close friends she recently "exposed" too. I asked them to meet with us tomorrow to discuss this, and ask my wife to support these (and other) baseless claims she made to them. I am an open book, have not hid my flaws, and have been slowly ground into submission by her conduct. I left our house, over the strong objection of Dr. H, Steve H. and Sandy, b/c of my W's alleged "anxiety aversion" to the monotonous life we had established at home, with no fights, not anger, no sarcasm, just routine. I have several nanny's who have lived with us who will certainly back this up.


I have been the primary care giver for our children, with my wife working 70-80 hours a week at her own business, leaving before they get up, and usually getting home just an hour before bed.

I didn't want a fight, I wanted my family back. Her actions these past view days have sadly led me to the conclusion that this is not something she ever wanted. I wanted to do MB, she didn't. Now we are here

I will post again, on my thread, and answer any and all questions, the harder the better....

HBS
Oh, and I am not "frantic", I am livid. Imagine your husband or brother in my shoes, and imagine KNOWING he is innocent. How would he feel? How would you feel?

I am counterexposing to anyone I can reach, because I know the truth. I welcome them to my office computer, to my office laptop, to our home computer (would i be that stupid???), my cell records, my cc receipts, my credit check for other cards. I am an open book, and I fear a wife who is trying to rewrite history....
I guess I have nothing to lose but to post the letter I just finished typing.

Here it is:

To our friends and family (specifically listed just close people)-

This letter is one of the hardest I have ever written. I am sitting in deep despair, embarrassment and shame so I am reaching out to those of you who are the very closest to HBSand I. I am praying you will find compassion and love in your hearts for us after reading my letter. Many of you attended our wedding. You stood up for us. You promised to support us and our marriage. I am reaching out today to ask you for that support now. It will be very difficult but I cannot do this alone.

Most of you know we have been separated now for a couple of months. This is our second separation. Our first happened in 2001 after I stumbled upon HBS's use of internet pornography. I soon came to learn that HBS had been engaged in internet pornography for some time, that his use was deeply involved and serious. In defining what was important in our own marriage, we had discussed the topic of pornography and internet pornography and I thought that we had agreed it did not have a place in our marriage. The discovery that day of the abuse of pornography, of other compulsive sexual behaviors that came to light, and of the lying and deceit that accompanied the behavior devastated me.

We attempted marital counseling but the compulsive behaviors were not really addressed. I chose to believe HBS when he told me he did not have a problem with compulsive sexual behavior, and could stop at that time and that it would never happen again. I was embarrassed and ashamed and did not believe I could share my pain with anyone. I then spent the next 9 years trying to force restraints and changes in his life and our marriage to control the behavior and remove the situations that I believed would trigger him and make him go back to those behaviors. Instead, it only helped create an environment where his stress increased, and ways to relieve stress increased, and his lying increased to hide his behaviors, and his compulsive behaviors resulted in the abuse of alcohol, extensive gambling, and increased lying and deceit. It has been an unbearable cycle for us both in different ways and for different reasons.

I left the marriage in March when after 2 months of new counseling, the same stories started down the same path as the previous course. At that time, I walked away from both a marriage counselor and a program for married couples we had recently discovered. At that time HBS admitted he had been re-engaged in the use of pornography prior to that date, but that he committed to stopping again. He also agreed at that time to cease all gambling and alcohol use. He has admitted that he has extreme difficulty handling stress and I believe that the cycle of sexual compulsion and gambling

He has admitted to an extensive history of lying and deceit to hide compulsive behaviors, to protect himself from others knowing, to avoid consequences from me and others, and to protect the image he so badly wants others to have of him as being �a great guy�. I do love the �great guy� I know ****** can be. I hate the person he becomes when his compulsive behaviors take over. I have been unable to separate them for many years.

I believed and have stated I wanted a divorce from ****** because I wrongly believed him when he said he could control all of these behaviors and did not have a compulsion for alcohol, gambling or sexual behaviors. When I chose to believe him, I failed him and our marriage and our children because I then took his behaviors as controllable choices he made, and that made those behaviors actions that he actively chose to engage in instead of a result of a disease or compulsion. By wrongly believing he consciously made each choice to act as he has intentionally was more hurt than I could handle. In my own hurt, I could not see beyond his denial and into the power of the addiction. I refused to even consider continuing counseling because I wanted to believe he had control over his urges and choices but could not go on when I knew things were out of control as they were.

Today, I am coming to you to tell you I do not want a divorce from ***** and I do not want to end our family through divorce. I want to try and save our marriage from the destruction of compulsive behaviors openly and honestly with those closest to us, and end the cycle of compulsive behavior that has plagued our marriage and tormented ******. Whether ****** is an �addict� of gambling, alcohol or sexual behaviors is not my title to give. And I ask that you not give him any title he does not choose for himself. But I do ask you to be willing to open your hearts and your minds to our personal and very private struggles and to please step forward and be willing to help save our marriage without judgment. I am committing to do what is in my power to face our problems and save our marriage and our family. Please know that I will respect your decision to not become involved if that is what you decide is best for you. I just ask that you consider supporting us during this time in our lives.

Sincerely,
Lion
Help me here PLEASE!

When asked as I have been just now for "proof" I can't figure out if I am suppose to not respond or reply with the info.

I will reply with the info but if that is wrong, PLEASE tell me. And I won't do it again. I really, really want to do this right.

Portion of email from HBS to me:
With respect to pornography, I have used it sparingly in the past five years, and never online, but I have used it and am sure I would have used it more had there been more opportunities, and did as recently as January. With respect to alcohol and gambling, my review of my history, particularly how I�ve dealt with my own stresses about our relationship, establish that I�ve used these two things as an unhealthy crutch.

I am falling apart. I have to leave now for home.
We've been reduced to exactly what Sandy said I should avoid by engaging, but I'm done taking the "high road". Please, produce your proof, here or anywhere. I've admitted my use, and it wasn't online, it was in the home. 3-4 times a year. That's it. No addiction. Nothing else. I've told Steve Harley, this, i've told Sandy this.

Message being sent here, men, is be careful what you acknowledge or admit as a form of looking for guidance and help in rebuilding a marriage with MB on this forum. Quite the chilling precedent...


HBS
LOG, why are you doing this here when you have a paid coach from Marriage Builders?? Is the goal to torment your husband, who you KNEW would read it? What is the point of all this?

And yes, HBS, you are correct, Fred did mention to me that he felt it best to not engage your wife on the board and I agreed with his assessment.

LOG, I feel like you are trying to drag the board into the middle of your personal conflict and I don't think thats fair to your H. There really is no reason for it since you have access to Dr Harley and Sandy. Dr Harley certainly wouldn't allow you to lovebust each other this way in the same room.

So what are you doing? Besides purposely tormenting your H?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
LOG, why are you doing this here when you have a paid coach from Marriage Builders?? Is the goal to torment your husband, who you KNEW would read it? What is the point of all this?

And yes, HBS, you are correct, Fred did mention to me that he felt it best to not engage your wife on the board and I agreed with his assessment.

LOG, I feel like you are trying to drag the board into the middle of your personal conflict and I don't think thats fair to your H. There really is no reason for it since you have access to Dr Harley and Sandy. Dr Harley certainly wouldn't allow you to lovebust each other this way in the same room.

So what are you doing? Besides purposely tormenting your H?

Amen ML.

Very troubling this.

LorG I have questioned your judgement since you started posting but said nothing until now. I have no idea what the whole story is but you two don't need to fight it out on this board.

SWW
Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
IToday, I am coming to you to tell you I do not want a divorce from ****** and I do not want to end our family through divorce. I want to try and save our marriage from the destruction of compulsive behaviors openly and honestly with those closest to us, and end the cycle of compulsive behavior that has plagued our marriage and tormented ******. Whether ****** is an �addict� of gambling, alcohol or sexual behaviors is not my title to give.

LOG, if this is true, then why did you refuse to do what Dr Harley and Sandy told you to do? You walked away from the program right when you started instead of following their instructions.

They told you not to separate, you separated. So, I find it incredible that you come here and say you don't want a divorce when your actions say otherwise.

The solution is to move back in together and work this program. NOT trot out every past grievance, real and imagined of your H and continually hammer him with it when he is ready and willing to do what it takes to repair your marriage. You asked him to be honest and then punished him publicly with that information. That behavior is not consistent with someone who is truly SINCERE about recovering her marriage.

The purpose of exposure is to help someone out of the FOG and get them to stop their destructive behavior. Your H is not currently using porn, so the only conceivable reason for sending your "exposure" letter is to humiliate and harm him. I suspect that might be the purpose.
LOG,

You asked me to check out your new thread.

I have!

You need to follow Dr. Harley & your coach's advice.

Your story looks very convoluted to me. If your H is willing to do a polygraph, I would take him up on his offer.

But I believe he has as much right to as you for a polygraph as well..... Your staying at work all hours of the night reeks of an affair. Is this what's happening? Or are you willing to take a poly as well??
Now I'm crying. I almost hit submit on a post that I'd been working on that would have continued the deterioration of this sad drama--til I refreshed the page--saw ML and SWW's words. I deleted it.

I have reasons for what I've done these past few weeks. Fred_in_VA knows them, Sandy knows them, I've been told ML knows them. They are reasons that I've ached to share with the forum when I couldn't.

Hardest four weeks of my life dealing with a suspected WW who's been handed the MB snooping playbook before the game started. I've prayed to God that she not be a WW, I've prayed to God to give me the evidence she was (if she was) so I could leave this month of purgatory. Just let me know so that I could move on with a plan to rebuild.

We just talked, she says she isn't wayward. I choose to believe her for a variety of reasons, some good, some bad.

I want to sleep for a year. I want to wake up from this nightmare. I'm taking my own advice to BT from last night, gonna maybe take a walk or try to sleep.

I'll be at Sandy's beck and call whenever she wants. Same with Dr. H, same with Steve. I see no hope for us outide this program and it's phenomenal support.

I apologize again to the forum, and those that care so much for nameless, faceless people like us, for my part in tonight's unfortunate events....

HBS
Originally Posted by tst
But I believe he has as much right to as you for a polygraph as well..... Your staying at work all hours of the night reeks of an affair. Is this what's happening? Or are you willing to take a poly as well??

LOG, I have to agree with tst here that TWO polygraphs are very much in order here after reading your post to Dr Harley over on the weekend forum. This part raises major red flags for me after reading your convoluted reasons for kicking out your husband:

Originally Posted by LionorGazelle
He has been living away for about a month now. Just last night it was his night with the kids and I was away. I asked if he could stay a little later before he left for home so I could try and complete some work at the office. He was willing to but not happy about it because it would mean he was commuting home 25 minutes sometime around 11pm.

I offered to let him stay in the extra bedroom if that would make it easier for him despite the fact that it was not something I really wanted to do. He accepted. When 11pm rolled around, I found myself exactly where I have been for several years now. Frozen in anxiety and not wanting to go home so as to avoid more issues with him. I feel panic when I think I am going home and he will be there. I am unable to motivate myself to leave and head for home because I want to avoid the interactions at all costs. redflag So I end up staying at the office awake all night, driving home at 4am so I can jump into the shower, get ready and leave again. redflagThis causes me great physical and mental stress, and is taking its toll on my body and my mental capability to handle other stresses. Since he has been out of the home, I have not had those feelings and have had no issues going home.


If I were your husband, I would not only be moving my [censored] home, but I would demanding a serious explanation for why you stayed out all night. He has a right to know. "Frozen in anxiety?" C'mon..
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
We just talked, she says she isn't wayward. I choose to believe her for a variety of reasons, some good, some bad.

I think that is a great start that she says she is not wayward. Would she will be willing to take a polygraph? Additionally, how about moving back home and really working this program together?
ML,

So much for a walk or sleep, I had to catch up with BT's situation.

I was going to move back tonight, but friends talked me out of it b/c of potential for conflict after the evening's events, kids present, etc.

So for tonight, neutral corners.

I've been wrestling with that issue for a better part of three weeks. We'll see what tomorrow brings. I want to work this program together under the same roof. But absent proof of an A, I'd rather not barnstorm in...

HBS
HBS, I hope you agree it is a good idea to move back home. Truly it is not in the best interest of your marriage to move out. Your wife has said she wants to work on the marriage, so I would move in and take her up on that offer. It is your home, after all. You have a right to be in your home.
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
So much for a walk or sleep, I had to catch up with BT's situation.

What a rollicking ride that is, huh? grin
Just so others can see what Dr Harley had to say about this separation:

Quote
LionOrGazelle:
Your husband is unique in this world: He's the father of your children. There are other reasons to save a marriage, but that reason alone makes him more valuable to you than any other man on earth. He is willing to do whatever it takes to overcome and be held accountable for the very bad habit and Love Buster of dishonesty. That makes your problem solvable. We are willing to help him overcome that habit. But if you separate, the chances of your marital survival diminishes considerably, even if he is eventually able to overcome dishonesty. Infidelity for one or both of you would be very likely.

We regard infidelity as the worst offense in marriage. More damaging than physical abuse. And when a couple goes through a period of time when their relationship is broken, and they are not meeting each other's emotional needs, infidelity is very common. Granted, we can even patch these marriages together when the incentive to reconcile (children) is present. But it would be much easier and much less painful if you and your husband never had to go through it.

Right now, your primary issue is your husband's dishonesty. Don't add more problems to the list. Stay together while you address this problem and overcome it.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
here
ML,

BT and I have many similarities, we've learned, hopefully not in his most recent events.

I know it is our home not hers, I am just not one for conflict right now, especially with our kids right there. I just re-read that sentence and recognize how weak that sounds, but I'd prefer that the decision be mutual. We'll see...

HBS
Unfortunately...

IF she's wayward...

There is no "mutual"

There is no "rational"

Just addiction

followed by manipulation (of anyone that threatens such addition in any way).

Mr. W

p.s. - that letter up there MrRollieEyes struck me as wayward.
Kids are finally down. Sorry this will be long as I try to "catch up"

I spoke with a polygraph examiner a week ago. I called him last week after HBS told Mediator that even if he told me stuff I wouldn't believe him. He was right. So I called one to ask what the cost would be, and how soon we could set one up if we could ever get to exactly this conversation today about taking one. I did not want to request one of HBS as I was fearful he would lash out and I had a deep fear of what I would feel if I asked him to and he refused. I was not ready for that rejection. SO I did not offer it up at that time.

But today after this explosion, HBS stated it first that he would take one. I didn't have to ask for it and it meant MORE to me that HE offered it. I called the examiner this evening after HBS's call. The examiner called back and can get us in Tuesday evening and Wednesday morning to get both done. I have no problem with taking one. None at all. Would do it tonight if I could.

I was told tonight that our mutual friend suspected HBS had a GPS and a VAR in my truck. Friend said based on his experience with HBS and their conversations of late, HBS seemed to know the script of what to say when they talked, which was after I spoke with friend. It was his hunch. He was right. I didn't know. I was physically at friend's home when we discussed it (and HBS's GPS could prove that). HBS fears I already knew so had counter measures to counter act the surveillance measures he had taken. Totally exhausting. I didn't know. Could care less. And told HBS if he wonders if I knew, he can call friend and discuss it with him (same friends we are seeing tomorrow).

When I got home, I asked HBS to point them out and I removed them. I asked for the key. He gave it to me. I then asked if he had any other keys and he admitted he had one and gave that to me. I want to acknowldege that giving me the extra 2nd extra key was HONEST! I really appreciated that step he took. And I want to post it here so everyone knows he did overcome his fears and was honest. HBS...thank you.

According to friend, HBS had stated he was spying and found nothing. I can tell you...because there was nothing to find. Guys, I get that most women (women more than men) leave only when they have someone else to go to. That is what I know about most women I know. But 100% do not, and even Dr. Harley states it. Was I tempted? Sure. Have opportunities been made available to me? Sure. Have I wanted to react out of anger or hurt? Sure. But I have not been and am not wayward. And I have told others about the situations as above as my way to help try and keep me on the right path and to keep me accountable during the challenging times in my marriage when I was most vulnerable to being wayward. I am only human and have always believed each and every one of us is capable of infidelity. It is the barriers we actively put in place that protect us. One of my errors was believing that I could put those barriers in place for HBS when he would share with me his belief that he really didn't need barriers like others because he just wouldn't be unfaithful. My experiences in my marriage did not support his statements so I did all I could then (wrong) to try and make it safe for me by placing barriers up where I saw danger. Maybe he didn't go wayward. So much has happened I can only guess. But would welcome the polygraph to be able to put my own demons to rest on it.

Just for a minute, assume I am not wayward instead of assuming I am wayward. Assume I really am that exception that proves the rule. I hope that if you can read my posts again from that perspective instead of from the assumption that I am a wayward wife, that it changes at least some of your perspective.

HBS will attest to this. I entered this marriage with two lines drawn: Don't ever hit me and don't ever cheat on me. I have said half jokingly, "if you are going to cheat, have the "pair" to call me first before you jump in the sack so at least I won't feel betrayed (or so I thought then I would not feel betrayed). When the opportunites have been made available, I always believed I would have to make that call first. I never wanted to make that call. So I was not willing to become a wayward.

I will happily take any polygraph. I believe it will end this crazy cycle of VARs in my car (and now I guess likely in my home being he is here with the kids but we have internet cameras anyways so doesn't matter) and GPS tracking devices and crazy-making.

So with GPS, my secrets are out: HBS now knows I was attending Alanon meetings, Gamanon meetings, COSA meetings, shopping at dress barn, meeting with family friend and wife, going to the office, going home, etc. He has heard every bit of my side of every conversation (sane and ranting) I have had in my car when I thought I was alone. And I am not mad at all. Actually, I am relieved because I think this has all be a huge distraction for him. I get why you all thought he should do it. But he did it. Now is the time to move to the other side of it. If the polygraph gives him that, then it is $400 well spent. I know it will give me what I need so that $400 is definately well spent.

Why do I stay at the office a lot? 1) we owe WAY more than we can ever pay back. We live in a house we should NEVER have bought. HBS has a "paycheck" job (a good one but predictable). I own a business and I am really the only person that can go work more and make more to earn more to fix our financial problems. I have done so at the expense of my kids and my marriage. I have typically gotten up very early before kids get up to get t work so I can try to get home. In the months before the separation, I was not getting home until maybe an hour before they went to bed if I was lucky and up with the baby until she fell asleep closer to 11pm. HBS would get home by 6pm to relieve the nanny and I would get home on average at 8pm (7pm to 9pm range) and some nights I did have to choose to stay late and work. But I will defend my parenting time with them because as soon as I did get home I was responsible for all 3 kids, and I put them to bed and I was with the baby until late and I was home almost every weekend. HBS had the 6pm until 8pm slot, and I had the rest. And he was resentful that I was not home to help him at 6pm. When I got home, I was resentful that he would typically then go play online poker when I was with the kids. It is a sick cycle. Fueled by my anger and resentment and his resentment and addictive choices for stress release. I am ready to let our home go financially so that the pressure for me to make more can stop.

2) being home with HBS was miserable, so being at work felt productive. Just as miserable as I am assuming he would agree and say it was being home with me. We are both high energy but under stress, I get anxious and short, and HBS's ADD flares and he gets frenetic. Our mutual friends told me last week that they used to hate coming over to our house because it was so stressful and they did not have a good time. I never knew that but I guess he and I were not the only ones feeling the stress when we were together. And THAT is why together in the same room we do NOT work well right now, especially with the kids. Kids know when things are bad even when you choose not to use words. When I told my 5 year old we were separated, during our conversation I asked him what he thought of it all, and he stated very matter-of-factly that mommy and daddy living in different houses was ok. Because then daddy wouldn't be mean to mommy and mommy wouldn't be mean to daddy. And he was right.

My intent is not trying to embarrass HBS although there was no way to share my story without it being embarrassing because IT IS! My shame has kept me silent for so long. I wanted to fix this without anyone knowing. That was part of my reason for sharing on the forum. You don't know us. You don't see our kids at school. I had hoped it would create the safe place just once where he could be honest.

Why did it take me so long to get to "today"? Because I have been so attached to the anger and resentment over it not being a problem but a choice he made. I desperately wanted him to then instead "choose me" and "our marriage" and our vows instead of these crutches in his life. Life can be stressful and some days it sucks. HBS is wired that it is more difficult for him to handle those stresses. He started medication for anxiety, ADD and depression about a month ago. Only he can tell you how or if it is impacting him positively. But there are healthier ways to deal with stress than some of the choices HBS has made. There are healthier ways for me to deal with my anger and resentment than I have made.

And addictions are cunning and baffling. And I wanted him to "fix it" so I could pretend it never happened ("it" being whatever choices he makes when he leans on self-medicating behaviors). My "today" moment came when I detached from my anger and resentment about being a victim of his choices, and instead I can surrender to the power of the compulsions. And I could finally let it go that I can't stop him from making those choices and no matter what I do, it will not stop the urges and I can't make him stop any of those actions. But he can and I can support him in addressing those issues whatever they truly end up being and regardless of what ultimately happens to our marriage. And I can commit to a marriage with HBS that is healthy, open and honest, and with recovery being the forefront of a new relationship.

And MelodyLane, I don't fault you for questioning me as a wayward. I don't fault anyone. I will take a polygraph. And HBS can read me just as well as I can read him. I know you will not take my word on it, but when HBS has what he needs, you can take his.

I will happily talk to Steve or Sandy or whomever right now. I have already held the polygraph slots for Tuesday and Wednesday. We are meeting with family friend and wife mentioned above tomorrow (HBS requested). And I would welcome HBS back into the home to work on our marriage after we have completed these inital steps above to establish honesty and communication plans so that the time together does not trigger either of us to act as we have in the past. Our kids know and I want them to see something different, not just hear talk about it.

I want to do this. I want to close those doors on those past issues that have never been resolved. I want to start my healing no matter what happens with us. Those wounds run deep for me and I have just started on my journey out of betrayal and into recovery and into forgiveness.

This is going to be a LONG road.
MelodyLane,

You are right. Those are the posts from Dr. Harley. I do not know how to insert a text box from a thread as you do but here is the last post from Dr. Harley on the subject:

Re: Lessons without your spouse [Re: LionOrGazelle]
Dr. Harley

Member

Registered: 11/16/00
Posts: 2375 LyonOrGazelle:

I'm sorry to hear that your effort to allow him to stay overnight with you in another room triggered such an aversive reaction in you. Your husband must understand and respect your wishes in this case, even though it may introduce new problems. We will try to help him while separated from you.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
I know it is our home not hers, I am just not one for conflict right now, especially with our kids right there. I just re-read that sentence and recognize how weak that sounds, but I'd prefer that the decision be mutual. We'll see...

HBS

HBS, living in your own home should not be a mutual decision; it is your right. I understand that you want to avoid conflict, but I don't think that is going to get you very far when it is your marriage at stake. Separating like this is harmful to your marriage, not helpful, so that is not avoiding conflict, it is inviting it.

As Dr Harley stated, separating is only adding a new layer of problems that wasnt there before.
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Right now, your primary issue is your husband's dishonesty. Don't add more problems to the list. Stay together while you address this problem and overcome it.
Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
And MelodyLane, I don't fault you for questioning me as a wayward. I don't fault anyone. I will take a polygraph. And HBS can read me just as well as I can read him. I know you will not take my word on it, but when HBS has what he needs, you can take his.

I will happily talk to Steve or Sandy or whomever right now. I have already held the polygraph slots for Tuesday and Wednesday. We are meeting with family friend and wife mentioned above tomorrow (HBS requested). And I would welcome HBS back into the home to work on our marriage after we have completed these inital steps above to establish honesty and communication plans so that the time together does not trigger either of us to act as we have in the past. Our kids know and I want them to see something different, not just hear talk about it.

I think this is a good START and I do agree that you both need to take polygraphs in order to start fresh. But living separated is a BAD IDEA, just as Dr Harley advised. You can't very well work on a marriage if you are not together. Since he has been gone, new problems have been added to the mix just as Dr Harley said they would.

The reason red flags are going off, LOG, is because your posts are very convoluted and seem to lack any rhyme or reason. Your words do not match your actions. I am not saying this to be mean, but the lack of clarity sets off warning bells. And the rationale behind staying out all night is just not believable.

It is absolutely unreasonable to kick your H out of his own home, LOG, so I would strongly suggest you get him back now. If you are sincere about fixing this marriage, you will faciliate that move and follow Dr Harley's advice.
Hi tst-
Just wanted to make sure you caught the reply on the polys. Sorry but was part of a LONG post and I did not want to have you lose sight of the answer to the question you ask.
But YES! YES! YES! I will take a poly. And yes he offered and that means a TON! And I took him up on it instantaneously! Set for Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday morning if time is still needed to finish both. $800 bucks for the two and I feel hopeful that this will put to bed the demons for me. And I guess for him now too. Hopefully it gives us both the peace we are searching for.
Thank you for skipping over here and posting in. Please stay on me.

Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
MelodyLane,

You are right. Those are the posts from Dr. Harley. I do not know how to insert a text box from a thread as you do but here is the last post from Dr. Harley on the subject:

Re: Lessons without your spouse [Re: LionOrGazelle]
Dr. Harley

Member

Registered: 11/16/00
Posts: 2375 LyonOrGazelle:

I'm sorry to hear that your effort to allow him to stay overnight with you in another room triggered such an aversive reaction in you. Your husband must understand and respect your wishes in this case, even though it may introduce new problems. We will try to help him while separated from you.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

LOG, I don't find your excuse for staying out all night to be credible in the least, and neither do other board members. We see that kind of excuse from waywards on this board every day. Dr Harley might not confront you with that, BUT I WILL.

Even so, you will have an opportunity to clear that up with a polygraph.
Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
Hi tst-
Just wanted to make sure you caught the reply on the polys. Sorry but was part of a LONG post and I did not want to have you lose sight of the answer to the question you ask.

LOG, just a respectful request, but it would be helpful if your posts were about 1/3rd that size so folks can follow. Too much information tends to muddy the waters and just makes it harder to GET.
I believe my W has a right to respond to all this new stuff, but I, again, take serious issue with some of her alleged "facts".

Facts matter, context matters.

I've never gambled with our money, only free tournaments. I didn't swim naked with our friends, I kept my suit on. The single, unopened bar condom in my car was 10 years ago, not recently as she has implied. My W knows all this, and to insinuate otherwise is misleading at best. When I did it early on in a post (wrongly), hell erupted, when she does it, it is ok.

There is more, but I am getting drawn back in when I shouldn't let myself.

In summary, again, my W's focus is on me and my actions, with not a word about why I might have done them, and in reaction to what....

HBS
Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
Just for a minute, assume I am not wayward instead of assuming I am wayward. Assume I really am that exception that proves the rule. I hope that if you can read my posts again from that perspective instead of from the assumption that I am a wayward wife, that it changes at least some of your perspective.

LOG, I assumed you WERE NOT a wayward until I read more of your posts. It was reading more of your posts that reflected that mind set and set off my red flags. The sudden separation, words not matching actions, staying out all night, intense focus on demonizing your husband and blaming him for all the problems in your marriage. That is all wayward behavior. Heck, I posted to you over on the MB101 forum initially. So, there was no assumption on my part. The same for others here who saw the same thing. It is your posts that is making folks suspicious.

The reason folks are suspicious is because we are the master mechanics who fix cars and listen to engines knocking all day. Some of us have been doing this for years. So, when the master mechanic hears an engine knock is he being "assumptive" when he quickly identifies it as a busted engine block?

Or is he using his finely honed skills to help him identify a problem? But it is not just the "knock" that helps the mechanic. He must LIFT THE HOOD and take a close, close look. The knock just leads him to open the hood, not to draw a conclusion without looking.

And that is all we are suggesting to your H. He needs to open the hood to find the source of seemingly wayward thinking.

Not saying we are always right about sniffing out affairs, but I cant think of a time we were wrong. There are currently 2-3 affairs on the front page of the SAA forum at this very moment that were IDed by board members. [igrip and BTintrouble]
Hi Melody,
I know I won't be able to convince you of my reasons and I don't don't expect you to believe me. HBS knows, even if now he has developed a fear of me being wayward, why I work as I do. I would agree immediately to being at work less if we can find a solution we agree upon with regards to this house. We can let it go into foreclosure, we can try a short sale, we can liquidate 401Ks and IRAs and pay down the extra lines of credit so maybe we could afford the primary mortgage payment, he could get a part-time job, we could rent out the extra room downstairs instead of having a live-in nanny. But the financial stress has been critical and difficult for both of us.

In many marriages, men and women have "typical" ENs. We...are not typical. But I am sure that does not surprise you.

I have a need for 1) honesty & openness, 2) conversation, 3) family commitment and 4) recreational companionship. Affection is #9 on my list. My primary love languages are Acts of Service and Quality Time (out of counseling the last time around).

According to the course we completed, HBS stated his ENs were 1) Affection, 2) was sexual fulfillment but he later changed it to open and honesty, 3) was O&H but then changed to sexual fullfilment, and 4) conversation. Domestic support is #9 on his list. HBS's primary love langages were Words of Affirmation and Physical Touch.

We did agree that admiration was a #10 for both of us. I guess at least that is common ground. smirk

He is hard wired a little different than most guys. I am hard wired a little different than most women. That makes it even harder for the "100% everyone does it this or that way" sometimes harder for us as we work through somewhat of a role reversal. I was taught by my father to work hard, be proud of your work, make a contribution, take care of your family and be responsible financially. We have borrowed from BOTH his parents and mine now to help with our debts. I would like to think I would stand behind my commitment to my mortgage company but these days I don't really feel the love to keep paying them. But taking money from either set of parenst was HARD, and HBS knows it was even so much harder for me to ask it from my father. And I have an obligation to participate in the repayment to both of our parents, his and mine. The banks right now...ah, not so much these days.

If that doesn't fly with you, I guess I will not try to explain it. I will let HBS address it whenever he feels he can and wants to.

Again, I have no problem with you asking if you want to keep at me. Remember, one of my ENs is conversation. smile

Also, I gave up trying to type in hotmail so I could spell check before posting. Sorry to all for my poor typing/spelling skills. Would really like to know if there is a spell check on this sight (I feel embarrassed when I spell poorly as I feel it makes me appear uneducated so that is why I desire a spell check option - to help me avoid my discomfort with feeling embarrassed by my spelling).
ok - will do.
Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
He is hard wired a little different than most guys. I am hard wired a little different than most women. That makes it even harder for the "100% everyone does it this or that way" sometimes harder for us as we work through somewhat of a role reversal.

I don't think you understand Marriage Builders if you think "everyone does it this way." It is not a cookie cutter program in that it doesn't recognize very individualized emotional needs and reactions to lovebusters. It has nothing to do male versus female roles, but with individual emotional needs. It is very focused on the INDIVIDUAL'S needs. What makes it work for EVERYONE is the policy of joint agreement.

BUT, one has to actually work it in order for it work. One has to live together in order for it work. That is what your H is prepared to do.

What say you?
And I agree that MB is the best at finding affairs.

(will keep this short)

When I started to post, I posted some of my questions and comments as I did but were because those were the things I was hearing from HBS. I don't always make the right choices and I thought if I asked "what if I said this" instead of "he said it to me like this" that it would be easier for me to try to dicuss those exact conversation with HBS.

On some level I wanted to be able to have a safe place to work through what I was hearing from him. It is sick in my head but I believed that if people responded that it was not ok, then we could talk about it and it would still be safe for him because I took the heat.

(And the tears start). And I can tell you now that feeling, that " willingness to take the heat" triggers in me my shame and embarrassment over everything that happened in our first separation. We told very few people that time that we were even separated (just like this time). And for those we told we were separated and they asked why...what happened, he told me we were not going to tell them anything about the online porn or "other sexual compulsions" (OSP for short) but that he would tell them it was not that he gambled away money and that he had not had an affair. I agreed to this because I was in so much pain myself and did not know where all of this would end up. So they did not get to know why I asked for a separation then, but they got to know why I didn't.

So I get why you need to lift the hood. All I can tell you is in my own sickness, I made myself believe it was the safer way to sare my struggles. That I was the stronger one and could "take the heat".
My blood pressure is going up....
ML, I'm shutting the lid on my laptop and going to try to sleep. I can see now why Dr. Harley places little value on rehashing the known (versus the unknown) history or problems between a couple in moving forward with MB.

Nothing has changed, it's all about me.

I'll check in in the morning...

HBS
One last thing, she's right, our friend told her about VAR today, and she demanded to know where it was and took it, making clear she had no intention of letting me touch it or listen to today's activities in her car....

HBS


LOG, can you see how damaging this thread is to your marriage? The lovebusters to your H on this thread alone have done nothing to help your marriage. The letter you propose sending out about his "bad behavior" is devastating and something I would classify as cruel. This just continues to get worse and worse because of your marriage wrecking behavior.

Exposure was never intended as a way to
slime and malign your spouse. That letter is absolutely inappropriate and will only harm your marriage. There is no reason to send out such a letter, especially when you have a spouse who is ready, able and willing to work on your marriage.

I would strongly suggest you erase that letter and never speak of it again. That letter is what is shameful, not your H's past sins.

Instead of working so hard to demonize your husband, how about putting all that energy into working this program, LOG? This program really does work.
HBS, please feel free to correct or add anywhere on this thread. I want this to be a new thread. One that can maybe be a place for our recoveries to each take new footing.

It is not my intention to be unclear. It does not benefit anyone to misstate the facts.

Gambling- I have no idea about the online gambling and "real money" but the poly will flush that out. You have gambled with our money in home tournaments and in Vegas. You told me in 2001 that you had lied to me about how much money you won or lost as games with the guys. I can say today we have money in our IRAs and 401Ks (hence the desire to liquidate and pa off debts) so I am lucky enough to say we have not gone broke because of his gambling. I don't think I ever stated we were but if the postings made it sound that way, I apologize. My issue is in that it was daily, for hours, into the middle of the night, was impacting other areas of his life and who he was when he was gambling was alien to me. He uses it as a crutch (his words in his email to me) to deal with stress.

Naked swim - ah, 4th of July. I honestly cannot say what really happened and did not. They were naked, he was in the water, they were group photos, he told me he joined in because he was mad I was going to be late for the afternoon and because I had told him (not respectfully I am sure) that I did not want him participating in any naked swim with this group if they decided to do it again that year.

He participated (maybe they were all naked and he had his suit on - I guess them naked and him in a suit all toughing should feel better than all naked. If he wanted to get in the watr with naked guys...maybe I wouldn;t have cared. But three naked women. That was hard for me to stomach, and still is but poly will flush that out too), told me he had too much to drink and that impacted his decision to participate, and then lie about it.

So he very well might be right that he kept his suit on. I can't say. I wasn't there. And I was too embarrassed to ask the friends and even if I had asked, I just would have used that info to try and control him so he was not in a similar environment next time so next time, it wouldn't happen. HBS has told me that he joined in knowing I would disapprove because he was angry at me and had too much to drink. I have always felt guilty that if I had just not been late that day, he would not have acted out. I have felt it was "my fault" he made the choice he did. But it isn't my fault. I demanded he not participate. That behavior is my fault. But he made the choices to drink too much and get in the water. That was his fault.

Unopened condom in the car - yes, it was back in 2001/2002. It was 10 years ago. It was not recently and if I implied otherwise, that was not my intention. Just because it happened 10 years ago doesn't make it any less important. It was a condom someone buys from a vending machine at a bar. "We" never bought those types of condoms and at that time in our relationship, I would not have been able to use one anyways.

When it happened then, it was in his car, unopened. He told me then that day, repeatedly over the years until I stopped asking, as well as family friend we are meeting with tomorrow that he does not know where we was when he bought it, does not know who he was with when he bought it, but that he remembers for certain that he was thinking of using it with me when he did. He had told me (but I don't recall what he told family friend) that again he had more t drink than he should of and that was why he could not remember. He told me he had too much to drink to remember, but he remembers thinking of me when he bought it. Maybe he was not drinking when he bought it, maybe he lied and said he was to avoid some other consequence. I don't know and I stopped running through th scenarios in my own head a long time ago. But that wound- right there and very deep.

I have not been able to move beyond this and the other incidents that have occurred and as a result, I have been stuck in controlling and demanding HBS to do everything I could that I knew of to make my marriage safe.

I did it all wrong. I can see that now. I had never chosen to stay in a relationship before where I believed someone had been unfaithful. I had always believed that unfaithfulness was a deal breaker. I did not believe a recovery was possible. I was broken in a way and to a degree I had never been before. I can see that I still am. And because I stayed with HBS instead of run (and BOY I wanted to run so bad in 2001), I failed at having any way of handling the situations in our marriage that stemmed from 2001 and that occured afterwards.
Sorry Melody, another long one. I will try harder.
I have it (his VAR) and have not erased any of the contents. Happy to share it at another time.
I have not sent the letters to anyone yet.

It has been posted here and given to family friend (who already knows all the details) that were are meeting with tomorrow.

I will not send the letters as you have requested.

I will await the polygraphs Tuesday and Wednesday.

I will gladly take calls from Sandy and the Harleys.

I will commit to working on my marriage to HBS in recovery.

I am continuing in my journey and will be attending a COSA meeting on Sunday.

HBS-
If the letter is cruel, I won't send it. If you want me to change the name of my thread, I will do that.

This was intended to be a place for me to start dealing with all the crap I bring to the table from these issues and it speaks to my recovery.

I came to know that I am still sitting there emotionally in 2001, having just discovered the porn. There has been no healing. It hurt me and changed me in ways I am still trying to figure out.

So maybe it is hard for you and the others to connect because the facts occurred "so long ago". For me, it feels like it was today. So I am starting my work to recover from the betrayal from then. But in trying to do so, I know this is painful stuff. So if nothing else, if you want, I can change the name of my thread.
I am confused.
On your thread on the MB101 board you posted:
Originally Posted by LoG
2. On a 4th of July, one of his group of friends was getting together on a boat on a lake. Us and the 3 other couples. One couple drinks a lot, and can say and do things that are inappropriate and puts a LOT of pressure on others to join in on bad behavior. I had to stay late at work. He wanted to go ahead without me and I could join him later. I expressed my concern that last year they all (or all but 1 or 2) went skinny dipping together (we were not there but heard all about it) in the broad daylight public lake. I told him I was nervous it would happen again and I did not want him participating. If I was there with him, we wouldn't join in but I was afraid with the drinking and the pressure, he would not say no. He told me he did not, but he did and lied because he knew it was a poor choice. He blamed some on drinking, the rest on �they pressured me� and I was mad at you for working late. Photos circulated. I was devastated and embarrassed.
Originally Posted by LoG
(for example, one time he got too drunk and that was his excuse for swimming naked during the day in a public lake with his group of male and female friends with pictures taken when I was not there and had already stated that they did this last year and I did not want him participating,

Which rather gave me the impression HE was naked. However you imply now that he was not. Could you please clarify.

Also on your other thread, you stated several times that the MAJOR issue for you was his dishonesty, past and present. There was some issue with gambling but this thread is the first time I have seen you say that porn was a current issue.

When I asked you "What would it take for your H to do that would allow you to be O&H with him again?"
Your reply: Full historical honesty and his plan for current accountability. No more secrecy.
Does this still stand?

Also I cannot stress enough that I think it is a BAD idea for you and your H to both post on the same thread. It just causes the bickering we are seeing here. If you must, read each others threads and comment on your own accordingly, but stop squabbling. We are quite capable of reading both and making our own judgements.
lil- (I am working on making smaller posts - here goes it)

Naked Boat Swimming Issue:

They are the same instance. These are the facts as I know them: As to whether or not he was naked, I honestly don't know because I was not there. I did not know about the incident right away. Don't think I would have asked the right questions if I had.

The others were naked. What I recall of his explanation of that day was that "he joined in". The photos only showed the girls swimming with their buns out of the water, and the group photos with everyone together. He states in his post he was wearing swimming trunks. But as you have eluded to in my original posts, the dishonesty when he is "caught" in a lie makes it so hard for me to find closure.

Because of the history of lies as you noted in my original posts, I do not know what I can or cannot believe. I can only wait for the polygraph to know for sure.
Lil- (next one)

Lies/Dishonesty-
The lies/dishonesty is my major issue in my marriage today. I believe it is a critical component to the action/shame/dishonesty/shame cycle. I believed that was the key to start tackling all of these demons betwen us. I think if HBS could get and be honest, we could have tackled this stuff together, privately. I think I would have gotten there before today had things worked out differently, I would have been willing to come around. I guess I can't say for sure, but I think I would have.

I can't say how much of a factor current porn use is for HBS. He has stated his position on it in this thread. His email to me earlier this year as I previously pasted was what I know about it. The polygraph will help with this. But it was a HUGE issue in 2001. And we did not address it appropriately then in counseling.

It has felt like he had an affair in 2001 (that the discovery felt like it) but that because of the nature of it, it got swept under the rug because it was embarrassing. I didn't discuss it with my circle because I was embarrassed and I believed somehow that I made him do these things. And that secretly, I could just fix it too then.

But the stresses and triggers in our lives did not change. And his IC that he has had since 2001 through March/April of 2010 was adamant that spouses in healthy marriages do not share everything and that spouses lie to protect one another and it is normal. And this belief was brought back into our MC. And I didn't believe it in my heart but I felt alone with not having anyone to talk to about it, and eventually I thought I was strong enough to accept that as the way it was. If it was "the right way" and I just work really hard at it and then eventually I would find the peace I was looking for.

So the lying he was doing to cover up the porn use and stuff continued and I think my actions and reactions put pressure on the problems and over time, the gambling and use of alcohol as a crutch grew stronger.
Lil- (last one)

On the question of "Does this still stand?"

Yes, it does. I reiterated that exact statement on Monday at our mediator meeting. When she asked him about it, he referenced MB, the honesty work being "out of order" and that he had been advised by (don't recall specifically who) in MB that they did not recommend he agree. It was at this meeting that for the first time he did not specifically say "Sandy/Steve/Dr. Harley" told him NOT to agree, but instead he said
"Sandy/Steve/Dr. Harley" said that it was a "grey area" and would be his choice on what to do (something like that) but that if he did, (they at MB) could not support the process (or something like that) because it was out of order.

I know it is mincing words. But I heard a difference in how he had been saying it for weeks. I heard words that gave me hope. I did not hear "MB tells me I shouldn't do this" but instead "MB says I can decide" even if they won't support us through it. People come into MB at different places in their lives. I can accept that Sandy/the Harleys will not support us through it because it is not the MB way. But I would like to think that if we can get through it, and I am committed to working the MB program from there on out to save my marriage, that they would be willing to come back and support us from that point on.

The exchange on Monday did not change my expectations of my marriage that day, but it did give me hope. For the first time in a very long time, I had a little hope. And I let myself enjoy it.

I will keep my posts to this thread. Sorry you had to endure our bickering. Thank you for being patient enough to read through it, still post and tell me to knock it off. Will work on that today.
Not much sleep last night. Cleaned out my truck and some of the kitchen though.

No longer feeling hopeful.

Am going to try to enjoy my day with kids today. May not be on MN much so sorry if I don't reply.
Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
I have not sent the letters to anyone yet.

It has been posted here and given to family friend (who already knows all the details) that were are meeting with tomorrow.

I will not send the letters as you have requested.

I will await the polygraphs Tuesday and Wednesday.

I will gladly take calls from Sandy and the Harleys.

I will commit to working on my marriage to HBS in recovery.

I am continuing in my journey and will be attending a COSA meeting on Sunday.

If you really mean this, then you will STOP doing things that are harmful to your marriage. Because so far, I see absolutely no actions that would back up your claim to want to save your marriage.

If you mean this, you will

1. stop trashing your H on this board and delete the lovebusting posts on this thread. Stop trashing him to friends and family.

2. cancel your meeting with the family today - what is that all about? crazy

3. invite your husband to move back home

4. STOP BRINGING UP BAD BEHAVIOR OF THE PAST

5. Stop following your own counsel and listen to Sandy and Dr Harley.

Those are behaviors that are consistent with an expressed desire to save your marriage.

I would start with deleting that despicable letter you wrote about your H above and apologize to him for threatening to send it out.



Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
This was intended to be a place for me to start dealing with all the crap I bring to the table from these issues and it speaks to my recovery.

You are not dealing with it though, you are making it worse for your marriage. The reason you are "stuck" is because you continually drag it up over and over and over again. THAT is what keeps you stuck. It is a diversion from recovering your marriage. Bringing the past into the present is a waste of time. You are not only keeping yourself stuck, but you are terrorizing your husband and harming your marriage in so many ways.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.

I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational. And when a spouse comes to me with unresolved feelings of resentment about something their spouse did in the past, I tend to put it on hold and focus on issues that prevent mistakes of the past from recurring. I ask them to trust my judgment, and see what happens to the resentment when the marriage has a chance to become fulfilling. In almost every case, resentment fades, as I predicted. While the painful memories are not entirely forgotten, the most recent marital experiences which are fulfilling and enjoyable, dominate a person's thinking, and resentment becomes weak and infrequent.
here
Posted By: LionOrGazelle Re: - 05/30/10 04:04 PM
Mel-
I am sorry.
What I have posted may be hard to read, but it is the truth and it is real.
I will not delete it to deny the past.
You seem to be right a lot I guess.
I must not really want to recover.
I am bowing out now.
Thanks for everyone trying to help. Sorry I just didn't get it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/30/10 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
Mel-
I am sorry.
What I have posted may be hard to read, but it is the truth and it is real.

But it is really harmful to your marriage. And I think you know this, LOG.

If you decide you really want to work on your marriage, come back and we will help you. That offer remains on the table..
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 04:43 PM
The following three quotes are from the first post I ever made on April 15, 6 weeks ago...

Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Complicating this big picture for me was my belief that my wife�s responses and reactions to my dishonesty too often resulted in unfairly harsh retribution. Because I didn't feel there was a "safe" environment to be truthful, I found myself being dishonest about things that I didn�t believe were a big deal, or were not things she needed to know about. As some of these lies surfaced, my wife rightfully began to trust me less and less�to the point where her imagination of what I was hiding created things that didn�t happen, or didn�t allow her to accept my explanations. I was the little boy who cried wolf. I can honestly say that this site has helped me understand where she's coming from on those issues, but I've had difficulty overcoming the resentment I harbor over some of her punishing behavior and being accused of things I didn't do. I've spent the last week reminding myself that this is a bed that I made, and I know that I will have to repeatedly keep reminding myself of that fact if I have any hopes of this MB program succeeding, but it's hard.

Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Now, we are at the edge of jumping headlong into trying to rebuild our relationship using MB principals, but we are both terrified. She is terrified that despite my promise of honesty and to follow the PORH and POJA, that she can’t trust me to just “turn off” a lifetime of selective honesty after a week of reading MB articles. She is so scared of being hurt again as we approach reconciliation with MB that her anxiety is through the roof. It breaks my heart to say I likely would feel the same way if the roles were reversed. For my part, I am mentally committed to trying to alter my past behavior, but terrified that I won’t be able to change what has become a hard-wired reaction of selective honesty, and that if (when?) I screw up, that there will be no forgiveness or understanding on her part, just incredible hurt, anger and unfair retribution.


Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
I love my wife more than I could possibly explain here. She is a brilliant, loyal and loving woman and a great mother, and the thought of losing her makes my heart feel like it is being squeezed in a vice. I know from a review of the materials here that I have to take responsibility for my actions, and that I can only control my side of making things right, not hers. That is what I intend to do through individual counseling, as well as continuing review of this site's content.


You've all just seen a microcasm of our lives over the past 13 years. Our "traditional" marital counselor, Fred_in_VA, and friends/family in whom I've confided recently have asked me why I want this marriage, given the dynamic that has evolved?

I will ask you all, and particularly LoG if/when she reads this, to reread the last block quote from above, because it is true.

It is true.

I've told those questioners exactly this: My problem with dishonesty will be far easier to overcome if the person most punished and tormented by it is compelled, by MB principles, to create a "safe" enviroment for me to be honest.

It hasn't been safe for ten years. It has been the opposite of safe. And combined with other factors not really discussed here on the forum, my fear and loneliness drove me deeper into secrecy, but not about huge things. As the poly will show, there have been no affairs, no addiction to alcohol or porn (unless 3-4 times a year is an addiction), no lost money from gambling, no abuse of prescription medications. Just a desire to avoid any conflict because of the environment that conflict created. I turned inward to those thing instead of outward to what certainly would have been unfaithfulness.

I want all of that to change.

I welcome transparancy in a safe environment, without DJ, AO's and SD's.

My wife's letter isn't the truth, but she will likely pass a poly that, to her, it is. It is the truth that her mind has created because of our terrible dynamic. I am doing my best not to be angry with her, because I don't necessary think it is her fault, in the traditional sense. But it needs to be fixed. I need to be fixed. LoG needs to be fixed. We can and will be fixed by using MB, and I am asking, no begging of you, LoG, that you not bail on me and our family right now.

WE CAN DO THIS. If you bow out without trying, you will never forgive yourself...

I love you.

Keep posting, and I look forward to the day (soon I hope) where our conversations aren't limited to this forum.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: - 05/30/10 04:52 PM
LoG - I've been reading your story for a while now. I hope you're still around. I really do.

From reading I get the impression that you have been holding on to your resentment and anger for your husband for a long time. It has become your familiar companion. You're so used to it that you don't WANT to let it go - not really, not deep down. You may SAY with your words that you do, but I don't know that you do. I understand that, emotions become familiar after a time, to lose them is frightening and uncomfortable, even if they're unhealthy. Perhaps that's why you insisted on separation though the best have advised you it is the OPPOSITE of what you need to get what you want. Separation and it's eventual conclusion of divorce would let you hold on to that anger and resentment indefinitely.

You really are in a lucky situation, one many here envy and would love to have. Your spouse is HERE, he's on board. He's TRYING. He may not be 100% successful but he's working on it. You seem to not even want to give him that chance.

I think you want to recover, but you're scared to. You don't think you have it in you to deal with one more failure. I can understand that. But YOU need to understand that as well. Realize that you are operating from a position of fear which will never get you what you really want. Self fulfilling prophecy.

Everything you do should be evaluated. Are you doing it to strengthen and build up your marriage, or to make yourself feel better/ demonize your husband? I don't think you are in a place where you can objectively ascertain whether your actions are helpful or not. Coming here is a good check on that behavior. If everyone is saying that your letter would be harmful, trust them, because your judgement in this regard is going to be clouded by your anger and resentment.

Now, I'm really bothered by the fact that you removed the VARs from your car. I'm bothered by the fact that you were bothered by them. Especially from being at MB for so long you should know that a spouse has a right to snoop. You should have welcomed the VARs. You should welcome leaving them right where they are as a check on your own behavior. You said yourself that you have been tempted. What better way to keep yourself honest than to encourage your husband to verify your words and actions when not around him?

Finally, do you see how sad it is that your children are ok and happier when their parents AREN'T together? Do you see how that will give them a skewed view of adult romantic relationships? Do you realize how that will affect their future relationships?

YOU are part of what has created that.

You say you want to fix your marriage. You are here b/c you want to use MB to do that. You cannot place all of the blame on your husband. From what I've read here, that is all you do. I understand that he has his problems, and from what I read, he sees that too. Your focus needs to be on YOU - and fixing your problems.

If you value your marriage, you need to walk the walk. It needs to come first, before paying bills, making money, whatever. It needs to COME FIRST. Waking up before dawn and coming home an hour before your kids go to bed will NOT save your marriage. I don't see you making any time for your husband and you're barely squeezing in time for your kids. MB holds that a good marriage requires 15 hours MINIMUM of UA time - you'd need closer to 20-25. What are you doing to make that time?

I know you say you're in a bad financial situation. Sell the house, file for bankruptcy, simplify your life so you can live within more reasonable means. The best thing you can do for your children is NOT to make enough to live in a big house with lots of cool toys. The best thing you can do is to give them a loving, stable relationship with their father.

You need to welcome your husband back in to his home. You need to welcome his use of snooping. You need to be willing to let go of your anger and resentment. You need to stop bringing up past hurts (I mean seriously, crap from 10 years ago?!?!?!). You need to stop working these rediculous hours. You need to schedule 20+ hours with your husband and 15+ hours with your kids/ family. You need to focus on YOU.

I know my words may seem a bit hard. I am coming from a place of love though. I want you to have the marriage you deserve. I want your children to feel the love and security that comes from a happy, loving marriage. You have to realize, however, that you are your own worst enemy here. You are getting advice from the best and disregarding it to do things your way, it isn't working. Why don't you try trusting the people who've been there and done that?
Posted By: shaken Re: - 05/30/10 04:58 PM
LOG,

The point where the fire gets the hottest is the point where healing begins.
Every story has two sides.

I am somewhat of a lurker, but I have watched MelodyLane and others over the years on this board. They are very good at this and I assure you, have your best interest at heart in saving your marriage.

You have lived in your "truth" for a while. It is time you see it from others perspective.

Let them help you.

Your husband is on board

He doesn't need a poly to start this recovery..you do.Meaning he is willing to start recovery without one, but in taking one it will alleviate both your fears.

No one is taking sides here. They are only going by what you say and you have said a lot.

From reading your posts it seems you have taken a stance of demanding and controlling based on the past.

No matter what you do short of riding a time machine, the past won't change. However you can change the present and plan for the future.

Let it go

Let them help you.

You got to let it go

You also know that your actions are "suspect"
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 05:26 PM
To be clear, I will do the polygraph, because the truth is as I've stated, and because my hope is that it will allow LoG to let go of some of the things to which she's never gotten a satisfactory answer, because sometimes the truth simply doesn't explain it well.

The murder suspect with no alibi wishes he'd been having a beer with his priest at the time the victim was killed. But with no alibi, no one will ever really know whether he did it. Life doesn't always give you an alibi, or an easy explanation, and when that happens, doubt is created.

But from the poly she will learn there has never been an EA or PA, she will learn I haven't been online for porn since the blow up 9-10 years ago, and that my use since then has been sporadic as I've claimed.

We both have resentment, and it's unhealthy for me to hold mine, just as it is for her. I will let it go, and move forward, but it's hard. It may well be harder for her, but that I can't control that.

I will also confirm that my wife has worked long hours for years, and that fact is not the primary reason I've been suspicious these past few months. I had no concerns about those long hours (nor was I happy about them) until recently, when they were added to other behaviors not discussed on the forum.

What I am saying is that being falsely accused sucks. I know, as my anger last night showed. If she's not a WW, than it is difficult for her to prove innocence when the evidence says otherwise.

I just talked to her briefly, and she is upset and withdrawn. Please continue to support us in this crappy time.
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 05/30/10 05:41 PM
I am hoping this Memorial Day will give you both something joyous to remember.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/30/10 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
To be clear, I will do the polygraph, because the truth is as I've stated, and because my hope is that it will allow LoG to let go of some of the things to which she's never gotten a satisfactory answer, because sometimes the truth simply doesn't explain it well.

Once all the truth is on the table, it must never be brought up again. I agree with you, HBS, that this is not a safe environment for you to be truthful. Her sending out a smear letter about you to friends and family is a form of terrorism and you need assurance that this will STOP.

Dr Harley calls this kind of abuse "secondary gain."

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse

I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.

Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment.



Coping with Infidelity: Part 4
Overcoming Resentment
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/30/10 06:00 PM
LionorGazelle, please believe that I am on the side of your marriage and would be happy to help you turn this around. I really do like you [I just love smart capable women!] and care about you, but won't support marriage wrecking tactics.

I am here to help you if you decide to take the steps to save this. This is very recoverable, all it takes is your willingness.

I am extending my offer of help and I mean this sincerely.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley to LionorGazelle
He [HBS] is willing to do whatever it takes to overcome and be held accountable for the very bad habit and Love Buster of dishonesty. That makes your problem solvable. We are willing to help him overcome that habit.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 06:14 PM
Now I'm confused, what changed for you, LoG, between your 5am posts and your 9:49am post? I am here, ready to talk and work...

HBS
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 07:01 PM
Well folks, a fun new twist!!! Wife just left with kids (her day) and I went over to house to change clothes, but.... GUESS WHAT??? All of the new locks she had changed two three weeks ago (to which I had the code until yesterday) were locked! We never lock the garage door entry because you can't get into our gargage.

Being suspicious of wife's behavior these past few weeks, I had taken a key from the rings that were left when locksmith left. I went the 20 feet to the cottage we are renting and got key and entered.

GUESS WHAT??? Our alarm system when off. We haven't armed it since we had it installed in February.

So I entered our code that worked yesterday when the power went out.

GUESS WHAT??? It didn't work.

I called the alarm company to stop the alarm, gave them the code, and they said it had been changed THIS MORNING.

GUESS WHAT?? Then the cops came. I explained and showed my ID and they left. But....

GUESS WHAT?? I can't shut off the alarm, which will go off anytime I move around in the house or open any door BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE CODE.

GUESS WHO'S NOT ANSWERING HER CELL PHONE??????

I'm back in the house, and I ain't leaving. I will not engage in arguments with her, I will not raise my voice, but I am now convinced she has had a strategy for weeks (months?) to get me out of the house, change the locks and the alarm, make me look like I abandonned her and the kids, and then try to convince everyone that I am an addict/unfit etc.

BT?? Your thread has been a roller coaster, mine is becoming a shuttle launch.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 07:08 PM
I just talked to the friends who have been involved these past few days. My wife called the woman, said she had "Quit MB" and was taking the kids and wouldn't say where. I'm a lawyer, but not in this area. Any advice? Do I call the cops on an Amber alert? What??
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 05/30/10 07:27 PM
It's certainly not my area of expertise (gee, I'm encountering so many these days), but since the cops already came in response to the alarm system going off, it seems you already have a basis for concern. I'd call them.

Your kids should not be pawns in whatever game is being played.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 07:38 PM
BUMP!

Melody? Family attorneys? Anyone?

Do I put out an Amber alert? What?

Her parents know nothing....

HBS
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 05/30/10 07:39 PM
Call the police. Do it now.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: - 05/30/10 08:09 PM
CALL THE POLICE

THEN

CALL A GOOD ATTORNEY
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 08:34 PM
Via friends, we've located her at a local mall. Her mom, who has gotten only her version (I'm an addict etc) is protecting her and lied to me, which I can accept and understand under the circumstances.

They are safe, and she is telling no one or even intimating that something is wrong or that she has taken the steps she has with the house.

She told friends she needs the day away from me. I'm not leaving the house again, and am sleeping in MY/our bed tonight.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/30/10 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
She told friends she needs the day away from me. I'm not leaving the house again, and am sleeping in MY/our bed tonight.

Good man! It is your home and you can't very well work on the marriage if you aren't there.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 09:11 PM
What next ML? I've had my friend here, but he has to leave. She may or may not know I've breached her protective measures.

I am no longer nearly as convinced (you might say) that she is not wayward. More to come...

HBS
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/30/10 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
What next ML? I've had my friend here, but he has to leave. She may or may not know I've breached her protective measures.

I am no longer nearly as convinced (you might say) that she is not wayward. More to come...

HBS

Do you have a tape recorder handy? If you do, I would leave it on, just for protection.

And what next? I would stay put and get your stuff moved back.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: - 05/30/10 09:39 PM
No Amber Alert...

No cops...

You KNOW they are with her and she has every legal right to be with them.

Seek out an attorney and get his/her advice on how to proceed appropriately in your case and in your state.

She's reading here too...so I hesitate to say much more than that.

Mr. W
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 09:41 PM
Never really moved much, just my dop kit and some bare bones clothes which I can get tomorrow (don't want to leave again in case she gets home).

I still don't know about the wayward stuff. W is wrong that I snooped and found nothing, I found more questions. I had the GPS pre-paid phone in her car all day Wednesday. It stopped transmitting around 5pm, which had happened before, and I assumed the phone's battery had died because that's what happened in the past. When I retrieved them that night, the phone was active, the battery wasn't dead, and the GPS program was not running. The VAR was right next to the phone, and had 3 minutes and 40 seconds of digital tape. It's a twenty minute ride to her work which usually produced the odd cell call and music. Now, nothing.

Our friend who was exposed to all this (lit. and fig.) said that his conversation with my wife was when she was in her car that day. Nothing on tape. I have to assume the VAR was erased.

Last night, she demanded and got my keys to her car, the VAR and the phone. Why, if nothing to hide?
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 09:45 PM
She's here now, ignoring my basic questions, refuses to give me the alarm code. Says she's emailed her lawyer and mine, but it's a holiday weekend, says she expects me to take poly on Tuesday. She packed up some things and says she's taking the kids (with her mom now) to a waterpark hotel for next two nights, and then they will be back here, but she won't stay here with me in the house. Don't know what that means. She looks ragged and sick....

HBS
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 05/30/10 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
She looks ragged and sick....
So did my WW after things came out in the open.

Stay in your house. And yes -- talk to a lawyer (you are one, aren't you? You must know one who would/could fit the bill).
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: - 05/30/10 10:00 PM
I haven't posted on this thread before, and most of it is waaaay above my head, but as a FWW I will say this, I noticed a post toward the beginning where LorG said that the friend she talked to about the GPS was male, and that she was at his house. Male friends are a HUGE no-no. I don't care if you two have known him for 20 years. She does not EVER need to be alone with him or any man - ever. Same with you and a woman. When your M is this precarious and vulnerable, you need 15 inch thick concrete EP's.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 10:13 PM
I asked her why the lawyers? She said she wants to "formalize our agreement". I said what agreement? She said our agreement that you live elsewhere, I said, "That's not going to happen", so she said something about moving forward the other way (divorce I assume) then closed the door and left.

HBS
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 10:20 PM
Lurioosi,

The male friend is 1/2 of the couple that she exposed to on Wednesday. He was here with me today for a good part of the day trying to help me find her, and is definitely not an OM. His wife has been involved as well, and I know she was there when he and W met last night (she had a migraine and told her H that she didn't want to get dragged into the middle of this). W showed up with the only goal of handing him her letter she posted above. He said he didn't want it, but W gave it to him anyway.

HBS
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/30/10 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
I asked her why the lawyers? She said she wants to "formalize our agreement". I said what agreement? She said our agreement that you live elsewhere, I said, "That's not going to happen", so she said something about moving forward the other way (divorce I assume) then closed the door and left.

HBS

So much for her sincere expression of wanting to work on the marriage, huh?

HB, my suggestion would be to stay put and not cooperate with any divorce schemes.
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 05/30/10 10:30 PM
HBS, I think Lurioosi is stating a basic principle that being alone with a person of the opposite sex is simply bad form, and against MB principles.

If you are going to recover your marriage you are going to have to adopt these principles and not look to find exceptions and rationales.

Right now, you have a wife who is behaving -- if not wayward -- in a very bizarre fashion. There are too many questions unanswered.

But you're back in the house, which is a good start. She has the kids, but that could work in your favor, too. She can't keep them from you -- at least not yet -- unless she can find a way to legally prevent you. You cannot allow this to happen!

Right now, she can make assertions to friends and family, but she'll need to start coming up with facts if she wants to pursue this.

You're here now, and you're in the house. Stay close to both.
Posted By: SapphireReturns Re: - 05/30/10 10:33 PM
Dear LOG,

Congratulations!!!! you have successfully sabotaged your OWN MARRIAGE!!

P.S I think you have proven my signature "What you think about, you bring about" AN AWESOME EXAMPLE THANK YOU! smile
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/30/10 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Our friend who was exposed to all this (lit. and fig.) said that his conversation with my wife was when she was in her car that day. Nothing on tape. I have to assume the VAR was erased.

Last night, she demanded and got my keys to her car, the VAR and the phone. Why, if nothing to hide?

People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. I would hold her to her word about taking that polygraph next week.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 10:41 PM
Can I take mine and give it to my family and you guys? Don't really feel like giving her the satisfaction right now....
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 10:49 PM
Also, our mutual friend who was with me today said W was convinced if I passed the poly, that I had probably found a way to beat it....and I prove myself how???????

HBS
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/30/10 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Can I take mine and give it to my family and you guys? Don't really feel like giving her the satisfaction right now....

You would be insane to take that polygraph under these conditions. She will use whatever comes to INDICT and incriminate you just as she tried in that letter. She clearly was never sincere about recovering your marriage.

I suspect the goal was to appear to be "working on the marriage', indict you for past behavior on this forum, and get you out so could charge with abandonment. Did you know we have had wayward wives kick out their husbands and then file divorce charging abandonment?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/30/10 10:51 PM
I would get ahold of Dr Harley on the weeknd forum and show him this thread.

Ask him if you should feel safe taking a polygraph for your wife under these circumstances. Go post to him tonight, HBS, and ask him. He usually reads the board around 5am every day.
Posted By: SapphireReturns Re: - 05/30/10 11:15 PM
I meant to say LOG smile I fixed it tho smile
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/30/10 11:45 PM
ML,

I posted to Dr. H, and linked to this thread. Good advice. Sheesh, what a cluster@!$#.

I asked Sandy this recently: how do you guys (Dr. H, Steve, Sandy, Kim, Jennifer, and YOU, I guess smile ) do this day in day out?? I'm exhausted from 1/1000th of the involvement.

I suppose that people who work in some arenas (e.g. who would ever want to be a pediatric oncologist?!?!) have an unbelievable instinct and push to help others that I admire greatly.

Home is empty and quiet, like BT, things are starting to drift into my head about what will happen and the future of my kids. Not a good feeling, not at all.....

HBS
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/30/10 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
I asked Sandy this recently: how do you guys (Dr. H, Steve, Sandy, Kim, Jennifer, and YOU, I guess ) do this day in day out?? I'm exhausted from 1/1000th of the involvement.

I LOVE IT. For me it is a labor of love because I just see a WEALTH of opportunities when newcomers come here. This program is absolutely GENIUS once you dig in and really understand the mechanics. It is unlike anything I have ever seen in this field.

I have seen so many marriages recover using these principles. And I have seen people who SORELY needed a divorce follow through and get one.

It always mystifies me when people say this is a place of "doom and gloom," because to me, this is a place of HOPE.
Posted By: Nerlycrzy Re: - 05/31/10 01:13 AM
And, for many of us, it's a place to "Pay it Forward."

Our marriages and/or our sanity were saved due to following Dr Harley's concepts & principles. When you see someone arrive here,,so lost, so shattered & broken, it's hard NOT to help. Especially when you KNOW help is available.

And, while not all marriages are saved (nor should some be) the PERSONAL success stories are equally rewarding. The broken heart & blow to your self-worth is devestating. Watching someone realize there IS a better tomorrow, they CAN become a stronger, better person/marital partner is amazing.

HBS, you're doing good. Something real strange is going on with your situation, but you are standing strong. You have great advice and are doing a good job on following it. You'll be OK.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/31/10 02:33 AM
Thanks Nerlycrzy,

I wish I had a crystal ball. Strange is a good word.

Strange.

I'm still struggling with what happened to W between 5 and 9 this morning. No posts in between. Can't figure it out, but something made her go from hopeful and committed and wanting to try to work this, to changing locks and alarm code and giving up.

I hope she comes back and recognizes what is at stake...

HBS
Posted By: MrWondering Re: - 05/31/10 02:48 AM
PERHAPS she's realized the snow-job she's trying to pull over on you and everyone else here isn't going as planned...

and...

it's NOT working...

and...

she's gotten about as much "crazy" out of you as she's going to illicit (meaning she'll play up your snooping as crazy controlling vindictive illogical behavior)

so...

It's ball game time.

I doubt very much you are going to catch her doing anything untoward adultery as she's wise to the game and whomever is in the wings is deep underground only to surface when the dust settles.

If it were me...I'd strongly suspect a good friend of her's husband. The extent of this game is so convuluted and manipulative that I predict the behavior is MORE than just protecting her own hide. She's protecting her OM's marriage and/or her relationship with OM's wife. I'd suspect someone close to both of you or even an employee at work that would blow sky high professionally.

Again...I don't think you'll "catch" her with traditional snooping. Just have to ask the right question at the polygraph (if she really follows through taking it...my bet...she makes YOU go first and then bails upon the most minor of supposed revelations you make).

ON THE OTHER HAND...I'm not there and I don't know you guys from Adam. Maybe...just maybe she's not wayward at all and your snooping and questioning has really gotten out of hand and her claims about you and your problems ARE true. However, my instincts typically say the one most strongly pointing their finger usually has 3 fingers pointing back at them.

All I really know is one of you is being really deceiptful and that the truth does not lay in the middle.

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/31/10 03:28 AM
My W just came in again, to pick up more stuff for tomorrow. She is always very prepared for the kids, so she was packing some bags, and I asked her to confirm that I shouldn't be nervous about her packing. She said I shouldn't be, and that we'd firm it up tomorrow.

Other than that, she said virtually nothing.

I asked her the plan with kids for tomorrow night, going into Tuesday, she said we'd figure it out tomorrow. I told her earlier today that the kids should be sleeping at home in their own beds, not moved around if she won't live under the same roof as me. We have two spare bedrooms, so there are options for her.

I really hope (and expect) that she won't bring them into this any more than she has. I also hope she revisits today's actions.

I have told those interested that I want to and will be able to tell my children that I exhausted all avenues to save my marriage. My W told me the same thing two months ago when she didn't think I'd embrace MB; that she would have a clear conscience knowing that this marriage didn't work because their Dad didn't want to live with transparency and honesty.

I will be be able to say the same thing--that I was ready and willing to work the program that your Mom brought to me, but she chose to disengage.

I hope we are both wrong, and are working this program in the near future.

HBS
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/31/10 04:03 AM
Mr. W,

I have no specific suspicions. Her office is only three other people, with two women, and a sixty year old, married man who is not a suspect for OM.

Also, it would be unfair of me to rule out that she is the exception to the "someone waiting in the wings" rule of Dr. H. She is right in saying that she has never been the "typical" woman, and that is one of the things that drew me to her.

With respect to deceipt, I can only speak for myself. W has admitted on this thread that the proof of my alleged porn addiction is the admission I made to her in April, when I said:

Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
Portion of email from HBS to me:
With respect to pornography, I have used it sparingly in the past five years, and never online, but I have used it and am sure I would have used it more had there been more opportunities, and did as recently as January.

With all due respect, I don't believe this is evidence of an addiction. I understand peoples issues with it, and that it may not be healthy, but accusing me publicly of a sex/porn addiction, when those are the only facts to support it (and they are) is unfair.

That is particularly so when those facts were voluntarily disclosed by me after talking to Sandy as part of moving forward with the MB program.

I have been guilty of deceipt in the past, as discussed above, but I'm doing this right or not at all. I don't know what the reasons are for the last 3 days and the last five months, but I will focus on controlling the only thing I can, me.

HBS
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/31/10 03:16 PM
Good morning, it appears the Forum never takes a holiday, which is a blessing.

Got some sleep last night. Before I went to bed, I texted my W and asked her why she was doing this. Haven't heard back.

She had earlier texted me and invited me to join her and the kids for breakfast this morning at a pancake house, which confused me, but I miss the kids, so I'm heading there now. A little apprehensive, but I'll check in later.

HBS
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/31/10 07:05 PM
Had a great breakfast with the family. W and I acted as if everything was normal, and the kids seemed to have a ball--ate like champions.

Then I came back to our empty house and W took kids back to MIL's. Last I heard, the plan was to go to the water park hotel tonight. I mentioned that our day care gal would be here at the house at 7:30 as usual tomorrow, and W said we'd talk about details later.

So I will call her around dinner time to see what the plan is. I really want and expect the kids to be back in their own beds from now on. What W is going to do is an open question...

HBS
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: - 05/31/10 07:23 PM
HBS,

Does LorG have a history of mental disorders? Depression, bi-polar etc.?

SWW
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/31/10 08:51 PM
SWW,

None that I know of. She was on anti-anxiety back when we had our first run of problems back in '01-'03. I've been on anti-depressants for five weeks, and they've helped immensely.

I don't know what is fueling this....

HBS
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: - 05/31/10 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
SWW,

None that I know of. She was on anti-anxiety back when we had our first run of problems back in '01-'03. I've been on anti-depressants for five weeks, and they've helped immensely.

I don't know what is fueling this....

HBS

I would be willing to bet $50.00 right now that she will not go through with taking a poly. You are right there is something fueling this and she is not being honest with you.

My gut feeling from reading her rambling posts and her nutty actions, blame shifting etc.

SWW
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/31/10 09:45 PM
Wow, Simply wow....

W came to get more stuff about an hour ago, I asked again what was the plan with kids for the week. She said they'd be here tomorrow during the day with our day care gal. I said what about tomorrow night? She said we'd talk tomorrow. I said, No, what about tomorrow night?

She said we'd talk tomorrow. I said, "do you really believe it's in the kids' best interests to be schlepped around to Grandma's and wherever else instead of their own room and own beds in their own home???"

We'll talk tomorrow. She left.

I then called MIL, who I get along with very well, and tell her that my belief is that Dawn is going to fight bringing the kids home to sleep in their own beds, and is instead going to apparently displace them to grandma's or friends, or wherever else while we fight out who should live in the home.

She asked me how things got so bad, and I told her about W talking to our friends and fabricating stories about me being an addict. She said, "How in the world can you sit there and throw stones when you were the one spying on her and putting recorders and GPS's in her car?????

OMFG!

She then started talking about this program not being Marriage Builders, but Marriage DESTROYERS, filled with angry people who meddle in other peoples' lives. I asked her if she had been on the site, and she said no. Sigh....

So W is now using the tools that this site recommends (a site and program THAT SHE BROUGHT ME TO!!!!) to convince her family that I am a scumbag.

If this weren't so tragic, it would be high comedy....

HBS
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 05/31/10 10:11 PM
HBS, it may be meaningless to try, but this quote from Herbert Spencer is found in Appendix II of the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous." I have found it very helpful at times when confronted with people like your mother-in-law:
Quote
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: - 05/31/10 11:04 PM
You better have a great lawyer!

She is going to have you removed!

I don't want to say to much, as I'm sure she is reading.... but you better CYA quickly tomorrow morning!
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/31/10 11:07 PM
You want to know what else is ironic about LoG throwing me under the bus to MIL about snooping on her with GPS and VAR????

Poster by W 5-21-10:

Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
BT-

I do think the VAR is a good idea. It will help you know something hopefully, one way or the other. We have IP cameras installed inside our home and did so for the oversight of our nanny (and we told each of them we had the cameras). But they are in the home, live, so either one of us can really log in anytime on each other. You can buy them with or without sound. You can log in online anywhere and watch/listen. You could always consider that.

Don't feel guilty about not trusting her. You are concerned about her actions. Do it, because you sound like you are doing it for the right reasons. If she is not having an EA and you find that out, then you can drop it again for now and focus on meeting her ENs and sending more time together.

If you find something, PA or EA, you can start the exposure, which I do agree is a good technique to end an affair should there be one.

And this on 5-21-10:

Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
VAR suggestions:

Olympus DS-30 Digital Voice Recorder
Expensive at $250 bucks. Online at Amazon.
Up to 68 hours of recording time; 30-hour battery life, optional AC adapter (if that could even be utilized and maybe so if not under the couch), and extension microphone optional.

Sony ICDP620 Digital Voice Recorder PC Compatible via USB
Just under $200 bucks. Also online at Amazon.
Supports up to 260 hours of recording time and uses two AAA batteries.

Olympus DS-40 Digital Voice Recorder
$150 bucks, again, at Amazon.
Up to 136 hours of recording time; 30-hour battery life.

I have not used any of them but they are out there. Now you can't drag your feet. Go buy two. smile

I logged onto my Verizon account. I can see every call, time, phone# and length. On the data side, I can see every date, time, Text # to/from, # to/from, sent/received. Of course, can't see content.

There are computer programs you can buy and install onto a cell phone you own (abiding by laws) that will track what you are looking for (records calls and/or sms texts and/or GPS locations dependign upon what you buy). Try sites like Webwatcher Mobile Spy Smartphone Monitoring or Flexispy (assuming she has the right phone). If she doesn't...it would not be out of the oridinary for a 15th month old to drop her incompatabile cell phone in the toilet (kids like toilets) thus requiring her to get a new "compatable" one.

It is just the truth you are after. I would not be angry if HBS used any tools on me. When we installed "nanny cams" our nannies all said they did not care - they had nothing to hide.

No more excuses.

Guess she didn't mean it.....

Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
I was told tonight that our mutual friend suspected HBS had a GPS and a VAR in my truck . . . Could care less . . . When I got home, I asked HBS to point them out and I removed them. I asked for the key. He gave it to me. I then asked if he had any other keys and he admitted he had one and gave that to me. I want to acknowldege that giving me the extra 2nd extra key was HONEST! I really appreciated that step he took. And I want to post it here so everyone knows he did overcome his fears and was honest. HBS...thank you.

At least she is being honest about now saying that she doesn't want me spying on her, why else demand the GPS, the VAR, and all keys to her car???

Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 05/31/10 11:22 PM
HBS, I hope you realize that you're in a war.

If you're not careful, she's going to hand you your a--.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/31/10 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by tst
You better have a great lawyer!

She is going to have you removed!

I don't want to say to much, as I'm sure she is reading.... but you better CYA quickly tomorrow morning!

HBS, your wife is setting you up, friend. She has been building a case and since you jumped the gun on her and moved home, she is going to have you moved out. Do you have a good attorney?
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 05/31/10 11:39 PM
Why does the name PSUBIKER keep popping into my mind...?
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/31/10 11:43 PM
She has no facts, they are made up, and yes, I do.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/31/10 11:46 PM
Soon after I began my study of MB, I came across the infidelity and the snooping aspect of MB and the SAA forum and I became concerned about whether my W was having an affair. Had I been new here, and had W not already been an active MB member, here�s what I would have posted about her activity these past five months that made me nervous, asking for the advice of the forum.

All of these things are easily verified as true, and I�d be surprised if W tried to deny any of them:

1. For years, W, who owns her own business in a small, private building we own, has worked 70 hours a week, often times til 10, 11, midnight or later.

2. We have very little sex (3-4 times a year), affection, conversation or intimacy, spend very little quality time together without the kids, and it�s been that way for years.

3. On at least two occasions in the past three years, I tried to talk to my W about how lonely I was, and the fact that we had no intimacy between us. I was told by W that between her job, her business groups, the kids etc, she had no time or emotional energy to address these issues, that I was �way down the list.�

4. Between January of 2010 and March, we did about a dozen session of traditional MC. In late March, W bought and began wearing a bunch of new, attractive (and more revealing) clothes without talking to me about it.

5. She did not bring up MB in our MC over that two month period, or that she had known of it but said nothing to me about it for years.

6. In late March/early April, W unilaterally stopped traditional MC with me, and then took off her wedding ring, and asked for a separation (April 1). I was stunned.

7. On April 8, she told me and our counselor about MB for the first time. We haven�t seen that counselor since.

8. She did not seem enthusiastic about the fact that I appeared willing to try the MB program, even telling me two days before we did the online seminar that she didn�t think she could do it, because she didn�t think I could just turn off my dishonesty.

9. We went through the program (April 16 and 17), but she refused to commit to it, saying I would never change. She told this forum that I lied to her within 10 minutes of finishing the seminar. For those who want the details of that lie, please ask. Then, that same night, she proceeded over the next several hours to shower, get made up and dressed and told me she was going out to a bar by herself, and further that she had gone out on her own several times over the last couple of months (never telling me) and that she used to do it before she met me, and that it was helping her �regain her sense of self.�

10. In the days that followed, W asked me with exasperation why I was interested in pursuing the MB program, seeming, to me, to be frustrated that I had embraced it.

11. W then told me she wanted me to move out of the house (@ April 20), that it was too hard for her to be in the same home with me, and that the separation for her was a bridge to divorce. (She did suggest that I live right next door, to be fair.) Between April 20-23, we had this email exchange on April 23rd:

W: �I have not had an affair. But I have been presented with several opportunities, and they become harder and harder to turn away from. And I would rather have you hating me for leaving you than hating me for having an affair.�

Me: �Opportunities for an affair don't typically materialize out of nowhere. Does that mean you had/are having an emotional affair with someone? When was this? Are they still in your life? I would have preferred to ask you and talk to about this in person, but there are so few opportunities. I'm trying to sort so much stuff out....�

W: �This seems to be a very loaded question and I am not comfortable trying to address it. I don't have a problem with you asking but I don't think I am at a place in our relationship to try and respond right now. What I can say is that I am not having an affair and have not had one.�

12. Between April 26-28, my wife had an email exchange with Dr. Harley as part of our seminar follow up, in which she rejected his advice that we not be separated, and that we should be living together to work the MB program for it to work.

These events describe my last five months. W shared virtually none of these facts with the forum in her posts these past six weeks. Nor, could I, 'cuz she was reading the forum. Instead, I went underground with Fred to get the advice I needed.

What would y'all (as ML would say) have told me as a newbie?????
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: - 05/31/10 11:51 PM
I would have said it is likely that she is having an affair.

I am not sure it is safe for you to keep posting on this board HBS. I think you need to call an attorney.

SWW
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/31/10 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
What would y'all (as ML would say) have told me as a newbie?????

My advice would have been: MOVE HOME AND HIRE A PI!!

What seemed to set her off into the ozone was the suggestion from tst and myself that she take a polygraph.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 05/31/10 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
I would have said it is likely that she is having an affair.

I am not sure it is safe for you to keep posting on this board HBS. I think you need to call an attorney.

SWW

I agree with this. I think you are being gaslighted in order to cover up an affair.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 05/31/10 11:58 PM
I know I am at this point until proven otherwise, and she is underground. I sent her mom the links to her daughter recommending for others to use VAR's and GPS devices, as well as the one saying she wouldn't care if I used them on her. Gonna be sure she gets them.

Can we change/move this thread??

HBS
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: - 06/01/10 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
I know I am at this point until proven otherwise, and she is underground. I sent her mom the links to her daughter recommending for others to use VAR's and GPS devices, as well as the one saying she wouldn't care if I used them on her. Gonna be sure she gets them.

Can we change/move this thread??

HBS

If we can find it, she prob can too. I am not sure what to say, don't want you to go away, but...


Maybe Mr. W who is a lawyer can weigh in here.

Do you have lawyer friends you could call tonight?

SWW
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 06/01/10 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
4. Between January of 2010 and March, we did about a dozen session of traditional MC. In late March, W bought and began wearing a bunch of new, attractive (and more revealing) clothes without talking to me about it.


8. She did not seem enthusiastic about the fact that I appeared willing to try the MB program, even telling me two days before we did the online seminar that she didn�t think she could do it, because she didn�t think I could just turn off my dishonesty.


What set off my red flags was her immediate and sudden reversal on her seeming committment to this program once you agreed to participate. That makes no sense. As soon as you became agreeable to working the program she came up with very vague, incomprehensible excuses why it would not work and why she must be "separated."

They made no sense to me and apparently it set off Dr Harley's red flags too, because he was also concerned about the possibility of an affair. He told your wife this.

Have you ever seen this quote from Dr Harley, who has been doing this now for 35 years?

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time.

Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings. here

Did you know this is how Dr Harley views requests for separation?



Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 12:14 AM
By the way, attorney(s) are loaded for bear. And I hope she's reading this. If she wants a fight, when I've busted my [censored] to save this marriage for six weeks, moved out, been trashed on this forum with all my faults, when she's an angel, she's got one.

I hope I'm wrong, of course. I sent her an email at 5:30 saying, "Why are you doing this?" Asked her if she'd thought about our precious children, and what she appears determined to put them through. Told her this is not the woman I know, not the mother I know. Asked her to talk to me.

I've heard nothing.

I'm assuming she is reading anything I type, but I don't mind you all reminding me not to be stupid....

HBS
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 12:17 AM
I meant moved to a topic (I don't know of an affair--or do I sound like BT, who my wife lovingly gave advice to... mad) other than SAA, with a title that doesn't make me sound like a deviant....

HBS
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 12:18 AM
By the way, I AM an attorney, but not in that area. I'm covered...

HBS
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 06/01/10 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
I meant moved to a topic (I don't know of an affair--or do I sound like BT, who my wife lovingly gave advice to... mad) other than SAA, with a title that doesn't make me sound like a deviant....

HBS

I think that the thread belongs on this forum because there are so many red flags about HER fidelity, HBS. Even Dr Harley seems to have picked up on that over on the weekend forum.

The title to the thread, "sexual compulsion" is ludicrous in the face of the actual evidence. Looking at porn 3-4 times a year is not a sexual compulsion so her saying this appears to be an is an obvious attempt to paint you in a false light.
Posted By: BobJan Re: - 06/01/10 12:45 AM
HBS

Your situation was very similar to mine, which occurred to me in 2005. My XW seems to have the same writing style that yours does.

Something happened to her when she turned 39. She broke�
I remember coming home and getting the speech. In my mind, at the time I took all the blame. Then I found out about the other guy, my son�s travel baseball coach. He was 29 years old.

My XW rambled on and on to me in email after email over my past deeds. And those deeds were trivial and were simply a smoke screen for her mind to �Wrap itself around her affair�. She needed to make me the bad guy. She had too villianize me� for her sanity�s sake.

If she is not in affair mode, I will be in shock!

Her moving the kids around really upsets me! The same thing happened to me.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I meant moved to a Looking at porn 3-4 times a year is not a sexual compulsion so her saying this appears to be an attempt to paint you in a false light.

"Appears"!?!?!?!?

Sorry, I'm getting angry again, shot the messenger.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 06/01/10 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
"Appears"!?!?!?!?

Sorry, I'm getting angry again, shot the messenger.

mea culpa! Post has been changed. TEEF
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: - 06/01/10 01:29 AM
When my A in 2006 was moving from EA to PA, I went to great lengths to paint DH as a terrible H, even using flimsy "evidence" to call HIS fidelity into question. I think part of me even convinced myself. But it was just a distraction from my own reprehensible behavior. This is what I get from your situation. Something is (and has been) VERY rotten in Denmark.
Posted By: BobJan Re: - 06/01/10 02:26 AM
I agree lurioosi2. My XW did the same thing. She accused me of meeting someone in a purple car at 5:00am while I was hunting.

It is funny now, but it was not then!
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 02:34 AM
Recently texted W this:

"Please read your thread on MB. If I don't hear from you in some way, I'm assuming the worst. And if that is so, I literally can't believe it....."

Got back this:

"I am off MB. I have not read or posted on MB for three days. I will not be reading MB forum ever again. I do not look at it and won't. Please do not threaten me."

Three days? It was yesterday morning! And threats???

God, I'm so scared and sad for what I think this is going to put our kids through....

HBS
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 06/01/10 02:42 AM
I did tell you, HBS, that you would have an army behind you here when the truth started coming to light. The tables have been turned and it's now just a matter of time.

I am happy (if such a word can be used in cases such as this) that you have persevered. I was concerned that you were falling into Plan Doormat, but I think this weekend has been transformational.

The army is marshaling, HBS. Let us help you. For your kids, for your marriage. For your sanity.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: - 06/01/10 03:14 AM
Do not believe a single word of what the wife says.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 04:19 AM
Gonna try to sleep folks.

Fred, ML, SWW and the rest who've joined this saga? Thanks. For the recent past and the help I'll need in the future. Not in a good place right now, but helps to know I have family and friends who care, both here in MN and in cyberspace.

Tomorrow is a new day, and not one I'm not looking forward to.....

HBS
Posted By: sickwithworry Re: - 06/01/10 05:54 AM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Gonna try to sleep folks.

Fred, ML, SWW and the rest who've joined this saga? Thanks. For the recent past and the help I'll need in the future. Not in a good place right now, but helps to know I have family and friends who care, both here in MN and in cyberspace.

Tomorrow is a new day, and not one I'm not looking forward to.....

HBS

We are here for you. I get the feeling this is not going to be a pleasant time for you. I am sorry.

SWW
Posted By: markos Re: - 06/01/10 07:24 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
4. Between January of 2010 and March, we did about a dozen session of traditional MC. In late March, W bought and began wearing a bunch of new, attractive (and more revealing) clothes without talking to me about it.


8. She did not seem enthusiastic about the fact that I appeared willing to try the MB program, even telling me two days before we did the online seminar that she didn�t think she could do it, because she didn�t think I could just turn off my dishonesty.


What set off my red flags was her immediate and sudden reversal on her seeming committment to this program once you agreed to participate. That makes no sense. As soon as you became agreeable to working the program she came up with very vague, incomprehensible excuses why it would not work and why she must be "separated."

They made no sense to me and apparently it set off Dr Harley's red flags too, because he was also concerned about the possibility of an affair. He told your wife this.

Have you ever seen this quote from Dr Harley, who has been doing this now for 35 years?

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time.

Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings. here

Did you know this is how Dr Harley views requests for separation?

Is this situation the reason why you asked your recent question on the radio show?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 06/01/10 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by markos
[

Is this situation the reason why you asked your recent question on the radio show?

No, it was something on another thread over on MB101 that brought it to mind. I had wondered about that for some time.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 01:25 PM
Good morning all.

Markos, I thought the same thing when I saw ML's question, b/c I knew that would be W's position, combined with her show of interest in the topic on the board.

I also learned this morning that W spread the lies to an acquaintance client of hers early last week. This client is the sister of one of my best friend's wife, so she knew the info would trickle. Now I'm putting those fires out.

No one is believing W, but that doesn't make this sordid little story any more enjoyable...

HBS
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 01:29 PM
Also, Dr. H responded this morning to my Q about the lie detector tests, and the most recent developments. I sent it to my W via email, but have no confidence she will read it or engage. I hope I am wrong....

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
HopefulButScared:

I know that wanting to separate is usually a reflection of an ongoing affair, but in some cases it is not. Your wife describes all of the symptoms of an acute aversion. Either she is doing an excellent job of lying (which is possible), or she is not having an affair, and she is being honest about her reactions to being with you.

Trust is a huge topic in marriage, especially for women, and your wife doesn't trust you. This is probably true even if she is having an affair. According to her, your behavior over the past 13 years have reinforced her belief that you can't be trusted. Her lack of trust makes her marriage a living nightmare for her.

Without any evidence that your wife is having an affair (and I understand that you have none), I would have to draw the tentative conclusion that everything she is saying about how your past dishonesty has affected her is true. If that's the case, your best approach to saving your marriage is to work with Sandy to discover how you have been dishonest in the past, and have her hold you accountable to avoid dishonesty in the present. Hopefully, your wife will see results, and give you another chance in the future. But for now, I'd assume that it's not just your dishonesty that is driving her away, but also a very well-developed and emotionally terrifying aversive reaction that she has developed. If she tells me the truth about how you are affecting her, I may be able to help her overcome that reaction. I see this problem occasionally, and I must admit that it's very difficult to treat because the aversion makes the person somewhat irrational.

Your wife wants proof that you are being honest. If taking a lie-detector test would give her some evidence, I can't see how that would hurt.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

HBS
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 06/01/10 01:39 PM
HBS, you are still trying to talk sense to your wife.

She's not in a "sensible-receptive" mode. You do more damage to your position this way. You should be pleasant but non-committal to anything and everything she says and does right now.

The time for sensible talk will come later. Right now, fortify your defenses and gather your ammo.

This is a fight. The fight of your life, in fact.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 02:12 PM
Not trying to talk sense, just keeping all options open and covering all bases. I was surprised at what Dr. H said, and, really, it fits her profile and history. A package for W came in the mail yesterday (from Saturday I assume) and I opened it, and it was a book for women who have been betrayed.

The books on her bed when I got in the house on Sunday, were sexual compulsion books, betrayal books, etc. I believe that her current realty believes what she is saying, but the irrational side is controlling her actions that are based on those beliefs.

I won't rule that out when my life and family is at stake, but I will cover my flanks on the other front...

HBS
Posted By: Nerlycrzy Re: - 06/01/10 02:39 PM
Quote
"I am off MB. I have not read or posted on MB for three days. I will not be reading MB forum ever again. I do not look at it and won't. Please do not threaten me."


Don't believe this for one second HBS.

I can almost guarantee you she is reading and keeping track of all your plans & fears.
It gives her a "heads up" and a chance to bypass your next move.

Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: - 06/01/10 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Recently texted W this:

"Please read your thread on MB. If I don't hear from you in some way, I'm assuming the worst. And if that is so, I literally can't believe it....."

Got back this:

"I am off MB. I have not read or posted on MB for three days. I will not be reading MB forum ever again. I do not look at it and won't. Please do not threaten me."

Three days? It was yesterday morning! And threats???


HBS


I'm tellin ya..... an underground A is going on!

Talk about gaslighting.... the polygraph suggestion sent her running for cover!
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 04:12 PM
Just heard from W's lawyer. W wants me out of house, and has told her attorney that I used GPS and VAR in her car.

Sigh....

I'm meeting her later with my lawyer. Prayers and luck for me.

HBS
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 06/01/10 04:23 PM
Yep, the first salvo.

Hang in there, HBS.
Posted By: Nerlycrzy Re: - 06/01/10 04:33 PM
Print out your previous post regarding her suggestions of GPS/VAR for others and her acknowledgement that she didn't CARE if you had GPS on her!!!

Take it with you to your lawyer.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 04:36 PM
Already done...
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 04:37 PM
And Fred, remember all that stuff we talked about way back at the beginning?????

Sigh....

HBS
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 04:58 PM
The fact that she would bring me to this site, tell me it was her future, with me or another, be aware of the condoned/encouraged snooping, say she has no problem with it, and then use it against me as a weapon in this situation is making my blood boil...

HBS
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 06/01/10 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Just heard from W's lawyer. W wants me out of house, and has told her attorney that I used GPS and VAR in her car.

Sigh....

I'm meeting her later with my lawyer. Prayers and luck for me.

HBS

Do you have an attorney that will defend you from this and keep you in your house? Or do you have a go along to get along attorney?
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/01/10 05:23 PM
The former...

HBS
Posted By: MrWondering Re: - 06/01/10 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
The fact that she would bring me to this site, tell me it was her future, with me or another, be aware of the condoned/encouraged snooping, say she has no problem with it, and then use it against me as a weapon in this situation is making my blood boil...

HBS

Simply...consent is a defense to claims of invasion of privacy and such. She invited and welcomed scrutiny EXPRESSLY.



If this part is true...

Originally Posted by LOG
So with GPS, my secrets are out: HBS now knows I was attending Alanon meetings, Gamanon meetings, COSA meetings, shopping at dress barn, meeting with family friend and wife, going to the office, going home, etc.

She's been running around town attending various meetings pertaining to dealing with YOUR supposed MULTIPLE addictions.

IMO...this indicates:

1. She's paranoid delusional;

2. She's been setting you up for a bitter divorce attending meetings around town and likely documenting the same for use against you either in court or in the court of public opinion;

3. She's having an affair (emotional likely) with someone in one of those programs so she's getting extra mileage and attention by playing victim to his savior AND she gets to see him in an inocuous private setting. These meetings are chock full of hurting people that all too often then end up hurting other people. Wayward's behavior is usually ALL ABOUT THE OP...so these meetings you'd expect to have an affair payoff of some kind;

4. Marital Munchausen by proxy - meaning she just in general likes the attention received from EVERYONE when portraying herself the victim of your supposed abuses. In other words, she's a professional victim and masterful passive agressive blame shifter; or

5. You are the horrible person she describes (not likely).


Good luck...because whatever it is SHE BELIEVES HER OWN BULLCRAP and she'll fight to the bitter end to "protect" herself and your children from her perceived source of abuse.

Mr. W
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 06/01/10 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
And Fred, remember all that stuff we talked about way back at the beginning?????

Sigh....

HBS
Yes.

And in retrospect, all of the questions (the new clothes, the taking off of the wedding ring, etc.) weren't oddities, and you were right to be suspicious.

The game is far from over. But you're very much still in it, much to her dismay.

No matter what happens from now on, it isn't going to be the way she envisioned it. You've already spoiled that part of her dream.
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 06/02/10 12:41 PM
HBS?

You've gone dark. How about an update?
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/02/10 06:29 PM
W canceled meeting yesterday 10 minutes before started, to the surprise of my lawyer, her lawyer, and me (not so much).

She refused to meet again unless I agreed to move out of the house as a condition of the meeting.

We're not meeting....
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 06/02/10 06:36 PM
Yup, you've upset her apple cart. Now she's desperate. She's flailing blindly.

I hope you've got roots growing out of your feet into the flooring of your house.
Posted By: markos Re: - 06/02/10 06:45 PM
HBS, I'm really glad you are in your house right now, and I hope you stay there.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: - 06/02/10 08:04 PM
Stay in the house.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: - 06/02/10 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
She refused to meet again unless I agreed to move out of the house as a condition of the meeting.

...

When hell freezes over ..... MrRollieEyes
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/02/10 08:21 PM
You know what really sucks y'all. The advice most of you gave her was exactly what she (needed) needs to hear. I find myself being drawn back to and rereading Vibrissa's post in particular:

Originally Posted by Vibrissa
From reading I get the impression that you have been holding on to your resentment and anger for your husband for a long time. It has become your familiar companion. You're so used to it that you don't WANT to let it go - not really, not deep down. You may SAY with your words that you do, but I don't know that you do. I understand that, emotions become familiar after a time, to lose them is frightening and uncomfortable, even if they're unhealthy. Perhaps that's why you insisted on separation though the best have advised you it is the OPPOSITE of what you need to get what you want. Separation and it's eventual conclusion of divorce would let you hold on to that anger and resentment indefinitely.

You really are in a lucky situation, one many here envy and would love to have. Your spouse is HERE, he's on board. He's TRYING. He may not be 100% successful but he's working on it. You seem to not even want to give him that chance.

I think you want to recover, but you're scared to. You don't think you have it in you to deal with one more failure. I can understand that. But YOU need to understand that as well. Realize that you are operating from a position of fear which will never get you what you really want. Self fulfilling prophecy.

Everything you do should be evaluated. Are you doing it to strengthen and build up your marriage, or to make yourself feel better/ demonize your husband? I don't think you are in a place where you can objectively ascertain whether your actions are helpful or not. Coming here is a good check on that behavior. If everyone is saying that your letter would be harmful, trust them, because your judgement in this regard is going to be clouded by your anger and resentment.
.....

Finally, do you see how sad it is that your children are ok and happier when their parents AREN'T together? Do you see how that will give them a skewed view of adult romantic relationships? Do you realize how that will affect their future relationships?

YOU are part of what has created that.

You say you want to fix your marriage. You are here b/c you want to use MB to do that. You cannot place all of the blame on your husband. From what I've read here, that is all you do. I understand that he has his problems, and from what I read, he sees that too. Your focus needs to be on YOU - and fixing your problems.

If you value your marriage, you need to walk the walk. It needs to come first, before paying bills, making money, whatever. It needs to COME FIRST. Waking up before dawn and coming home an hour before your kids go to bed will NOT save your marriage. I don't see you making any time for your husband and you're barely squeezing in time for your kids. MB holds that a good marriage requires 15 hours MINIMUM of UA time - you'd need closer to 20-25. What are you doing to make that time?

.......

I know my words may seem a bit hard. I am coming from a place of love though. I want you to have the marriage you deserve. I want your children to feel the love and security that comes from a happy, loving marriage. You have to realize, however, that you are your own worst enemy here. You are getting advice from the best and disregarding it to do things your way, it isn't working. Why don't you try trusting the people who've been there and done that?

She so hit the nail on the head.

I spend my days and nights vacillating between horrific anger and deep sympathy for this situation, and am continuously brought back to our three beautiful children, moving houses, separate lives, not understanding.

I know it goes on every day in every city in every state, but I never thought it would be me and mine.

HBS
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 06/02/10 08:47 PM
Unfortunately, there is much said here that both spouses need to hear/read. Waywards are typically too foggy and selfish to pay attention, and betrayed spouses are too hurt and scared to heed.

The hurt and scared are easier to reach, however, since they are desperate for help, even if they resist it at first.

I remember reading Vibrissa's words to your wife and thinking how spot on she was. I also felt your wife would never read them.

After getting you on the ropes, you've managed to get back in the ring and are landing a few haymakers now.

Since it's now out in the open (all but the affair, that is), I'd say put it all on here. If your wife thinks she'll learn what's coming, she's right. MelodyLane's middle name spells it out for her...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 06/02/10 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
W canceled meeting yesterday 10 minutes before started, to the surprise of my lawyer, her lawyer, and me (not so much).

She refused to meet again unless I agreed to move out of the house as a condition of the meeting.

We're not meeting....

HBS, is she withholding your kids from you? Has she taken them out of them home?

What does your attorney say about getting your kids home? And what was his response about her asking you to get out of you house as leverage to just meet with her?
Posted By: markos Re: - 06/02/10 09:02 PM
Is the alarm system still going off?
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/02/10 09:07 PM
Kids were back home last night. It was "my" night (I am T/R/Sat on the agreement we made), but W showed up with her mom around 6:30, saying "I think it best I be here".

She and her mom worked around the house and let me have my time with the kids, then I put kids to bed, with goodnights from mom (which is fine with me, I'd like the goodnight routine to stay consistent as long as possible) then I slept in the basement bedroom.

Today, no meeting because I will not agree to leave house.
Posted By: Lady_Clueless Re: - 06/02/10 09:30 PM
You should have stayed in YOUR bedroom. If she wanted to stay there, SHE should sleep in the basement!
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: - 06/02/10 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Kids were back home last night. It was "my" night (I am T/R/Sat on the agreement we made), but W showed up with her mom around 6:30, saying "I think it best I be here".

She and her mom worked around the house and let me have my time with the kids, then I put kids to bed, with goodnights from mom (which is fine with me, I'd like the goodnight routine to stay consistent as long as possible) then I slept in the basement bedroom.

Today, no meeting because I will not agree to leave house.

Why are you letting her take the kids and why aren't you sleeping in your bed?
Posted By: markos Re: - 06/02/10 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Today, no meeting because I will not agree to leave house.

She won't proceed with meetings to finalize separation/divorce/whatever until you move out? This is AWESOME! Stay in that house!!!

What a negotiator: "I won't do what I want to do until you give me what I want." What kind of a threat is that? crazy
Posted By: shinethrough Re: - 06/02/10 10:49 PM
So after we cut through all the drama and trauma that your WW has created;

She didn't take the polygraph today as intended, did she?

Which was her sole motivation in the first place.

She knows she couldn't pass it. She has not even asked you to take the one you agreed to. How could she, when she knew she would NOT be taking that test herself.

I think it is more than obvious now that she is desperate, and had to find a way to scuttle the plans that you both agreed to in front of everyone here on this forum.

Now, she refuses to come back here, because she knows the jig is up and certain folks have seen right through her. We do have a sniff meter for affairs. Much to her dismay.

Good luck,

All Blessings,
Jerry
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/03/10 02:49 AM
The extent to which she is now trashing MB and the forum for being unhealthy advice from a bunch of amateurs is hilariously ironic.
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 06/03/10 02:54 AM
Of course. We don't agree with her.

Much to her chagrin.
Posted By: markos Re: - 06/03/10 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
The extent to which she is now trashing MB and the forum for being unhealthy advice from a bunch of amateurs is hilariously ironic.

What does she say about the advice of Dr. Willard Harley, clinical psychologist with 35 years of experience helping people learn to have happy, healthy marriages? What about the advice of Steve Harley? The Marriage Builders coaches?

I mean, sure, we're all amateurs, but those people are professionals. It's not just the advice of a bunch of amateurs she is rejecting.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/03/10 03:15 AM
That isn't addressed....
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: - 06/03/10 03:31 AM
*************edit***********
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 06/03/10 03:41 AM
Wasn't a mistake having my beloved children. Without her, they would never be in my life. I will never forget that, and have reminded myself of that many times in the past three days.

But I know you meant no ill-intention with the comment bubbles...

HBS
Posted By: markos Re: - 06/03/10 05:57 AM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Wasn't a mistake having my beloved children.

I'm glad to hear you feel that way. You might want to search that other poster's history to get more perspective about how she feels about children.
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 06/03/10 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
*****edit********

Not very helpful, Bubbles.

I made the mistake 25 years ago of not taking a job that was offered to me by a company that would grow to be one of the largest Internet-based businesses in the world, and which would have made me a millionaire many times over.

Nothing I can do about that now. It was my decision, and I have to live with it. Do I regret it? Only because it would have made me rich. I don't regret that I would have had to sacrifice many of the principles I hold dear in order to have done it.

Harping over "shoulda, coulda, woulda" isn't productive, Bubbles. We are here to help in the here and now.

I know HBS will be OK. This is a rough time, and he needs all of the help and support we can give him. So many people outside of this forum do not understand MB principles, and how to recover. We do. We need to be there for HBS and others like him, to help show him how WE have survived similar circumstances.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: - 06/03/10 02:47 PM
I love children and they love me. I have no children myself and do not want any because I cannot help it I dont have that drive. I hate it when children are hurt because of the parents problems. Maybe your kids will be OK. We can only hope.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: - 06/03/10 08:13 PM
Quote
These are the three main mistakes you made. Perhaps after a lot of legal money and holding firm, you can at least get a better life going even though you made these three fatal "life" errors.

Here we go again, Bubbles is going to trash BSs when they are in the depths of despair. How many times does you need to be asked to stop this, Bubbles?

HBS ~ please put Bubbles on ignore. She is not helpful to BSs. And then ignore her ridiculously hurtful post. She is not a BS and has no idea the pain a BS endures. I'm sorry she said this to you.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: - 06/03/10 08:21 PM
Quote
But I know you meant no ill-intention with the comment bubbles...

Don't be so sure...she does this all time, she follows BSs around and tortures them with her cruel words when they are hanging by a thread.

PLEASE, HBS...put her on ignore.
Posted By: markos Re: - 06/03/10 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by MarriedForever
HBS ~ please put Bubbles on ignore.

I agree.
Posted By: markos Re: - 06/03/10 08:49 PM
From the top of the page:

Quote
Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: - 06/03/10 09:10 PM
P.S. to put someone on ignore, click on their name; then View Profile; then Ignore This User.

Posted By: Pepperband Re: - 06/03/10 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by MarriedForever
P.S. to put someone on ignore, click on their name; then View Profile; then Ignore This User.

Below is a link to conflict resolution, here on MB.
This is what is recommended when any poster will not back off, when posting inappropriately.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2105442#Post2105442
cool

Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: - 06/09/10 08:27 PM
This thread dried up faster than a grape in the desert sun. Are either of you still around? How about an update?

A bump to bring it back to the top. Hoping someone will see it...
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: - 06/09/10 11:35 PM
I was thinking the same thing today...hope you are ok HBS...
Posted By: Lady_Clueless Re: - 06/09/10 11:47 PM
He probably had to quit posting for legal reasons and to protect himself.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: - 06/10/10 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by Lady_Clueless
He probably had to quit posting for legal reasons and to protect himself.

I actually thought of this as well, LOL.
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 12/05/11 09:56 PM
Hey Forum, went to trial, 3 days. Judge rejected all LoG's claims, gave me virtually all that I asked for, including primary residency for determining school district for children, joint legal and physical custody and have the kids 50/50. Moving on with my life...

HBS
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: - 12/05/11 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Hey Forum, went to trial, 3 days. Judge rejected all LoG's claims, gave me virtually all that I asked for, including primary residency for determining school district for children, joint legal and physical custody and have the kids 50/50. Moving on with my life...

HBS

Wow! I am sorry to hear it hasn't worked out but am glad you hear you came out so well! Can you give us more of an update?
Posted By: HopefulButScared Re: - 12/05/11 10:25 PM
Send me a PM Melody?
Posted By: Fireproof Re: - 12/05/11 10:53 PM
Please check your email with a message about PM's.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: - 12/06/11 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Hey Forum, went to trial, 3 days. Judge rejected all LoG's claims, gave me virtually all that I asked for, including primary residency for determining school district for children, joint legal and physical custody and have the kids 50/50. Moving on with my life...

HBS

Sorry to hear about your divorce but glad to see you got 50/50 and primary custody. That seems like a good custody outcome but I hesitate to congratulate when you may have been going for 80-20.

I went back and read your story. Wow... "lionorgazelle" was an appropriate name for your wife. What an elaborate set up acting like the gazelle. It's so easy to go back and read this in hindsight and SEE her gaslighting you.

Anyway...who did the OM end up being?

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: markos Re: - 12/06/11 04:56 PM
Hi, Hopeful. I have wondered about you many times over the last year. Sorry to hear that your wife turned out this way, but I am glad that you were able to get loose of her and get most of what you asked for. Thank you for coming back to give us an update!
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