Not that you people arent lovely, but I really did hope that I wouldnt be back here. Ever. Yet, here I am.

Since my H's affair 4 years ago with my closest friend, I have struggled with serious self esteem issues. I know I am an attractive woman, but my ego took such a hit when my H had an A.

This weekend, we got an invitation to join friends for dinner. These friends of ours are long time and my H is not attracted to the woman so I feel comfortable with them. They mentioned that there would be another couple attending as well, whom I do not know.

I explained to my H that I felt very vulnerable in these sorts of circumstances and that the evenings are rarely enjoyable for me as I spend most of the night worrying if my H finds the other woman attractive, if they are forming any kind of connection and if he is secretly planning on somehow contacting her. Opening up to my H in this way and explaining my fears was rather a big deal for me, and I felt happy I did. His response was very supportive, and he said that he thought I was the most beautiful woman on the planet, he was only interested in me and he doesnt "see" anyone else. Ever.

Fast forward 1.5 hours. We are in a home and garden store and Im in another aisle. I can see my H and he cant see me. there was a woman there who was very attractive and my husband was learing at her. Not a 30 second glance, but a full 3-4 minute stare. I saw her looking at him as well. My H had no idea I saw this, of course. When I did walk up to him, he went out of his way to position himself to continue to look at this woman, about 5 or 6 times - out of what he thought was my line of sight. Not quick looks at all but staring.

So, good people - what do you think? I am heartbroken because:

1. We had JUST had a conversation about how vulnerable I felt and my own self esteem
2. This was not an innocent glance
3. When I confronted him, he said " What woman"? Like he had no idea what I was talking about until he knew I knew and then he fessed up.

I know it was a simple look. I get that. What it implies is much much worse though.

I dont think I want to be married to this man anymore

Kim, will you go post this to Dr Harley? Frankly, I don't know what to say. It bothers me that your H leers at women like that, and indicates to me the reason why you have not recovered.

You and I both know that a leering man [with eye contact] is signalling that he is AVAILABLE. As a female, wouldn't you think that if a man looked at you that way? I would.

Maybe this is why you can't recover, Kim. All that has changed is that he does a better job of covering up his interest in other women.

Show me a man that doesn't stare at gorgeous women and I'll show you a man who's either much better than the rest of us at hiding it, or likely gay . That, and groping at our partners from time to time, is simply what we do.

So, what he did? Probably natural, though openly staring at one woman while you're in the company of another is really really bad manners. How he handled it when caught? Like most of us do when caught red-handed - like an idiot.

Ask him why he chose to lie to you at first. That conversation might be quite enlightening.

My FWW used to point out attractive women to me at one time, or ask me what I found attractive about those that caught my eye, sometimes registering her approval or disapproval of my tastes too. Now, she's a bit annoyed when she catches me looking. And SHE's the one who had an A. Go figure.

What bothers me is that he went out of his way to reposition himself to keep staring at this woman. If she noticed, she probably thought he was a real lecher!

I agree with MiM, though - ask why he thought to lie to you about looking.

MIM,

Hate to say it but i disagree. I think it's a big difference between noticing the fact that a beautiful woman comes into your space and staring or leering at her.

It sounds like your H is almost doing it on purpose to me, to taunt or annoy you? Make you jealous?

I am not perfect but I make it a point to try to look away when a particularly gorgeous female comes into my view, because I feel she probably is already annoyed by it when other guys do it and I don't want to offend her, and 2 it's just kind of a boundary for me.

Sounds like your H has no boundaries, and that is your (or his) problem still.

SWW

PS Okay, I also don't wanna get busted for staring.

I had MANY moments when I would "catch" my WH looking at other women. I even read some research that said that men get a slight high when they see an attractive woman, kind of like the one women get from chocolate. I would usually say things when I would "catch" him like, "Well, her skirt is really short." He would get a silly child-like smile and he knew he was "caught." The funny thing is that after I was given the ILYBNILWY speech, we were at a restaurant and I noticed that he did NOT look at any women. I didn't understand. Now, I do.

The thing that bugs me about the way that your F(?)WH handled this sitch is exactly as ML described. He did it for a LONG time.

No argument there. But at what point does "noticing" and "looking" become "staring" or "leering", and who gets to make that call? His "look" might be her "leer", for example.


If that was the case, he would not have tried to hide what he was doing.

MIM,

This is what I caught.

SWW

Ok,

guess he was trying to hide it, but not too good.

SWW

And this answer itself it was bothers me about men in general, you will fall over yourself to help out an attractive women yet let an elderly women carry all of her stuff and then wonder why your wife gets upset. Do you see your wife checking out attractive men?

I heard a joke one time that IMHO fits a lot of men.

"God gave a man two heads, but only enough blood to use one at a time"

HAHAHHAA! sorry for laughing, but my husband always checks out girls but I really don't care mainly because I know I'm probably pettier (big EGO!) wanna know what my husband does after he checks out a girl?

"umm...ya I just checked out that girl over there." Then I would look and say "am I prettier?" and he would then check her out AGAIN then say "actually, her legs aren't that great, and you got the better legs!"

ONE TIME! We were at a restaurant and told me he kept checking out this girl behind me, so all threw dinner he was looking at this hot chick behind me while we were eating and guess what! When we left he checked her out AGAIN, but she wasn't checking HIM out she was CHECKING ME OUT!! MWHAHAHAHAHAA...I laughed my [censored] off when he told me, he then wanted to get her number for ME!

It doesn't bother me that he looks at other girls, cause he fesses up right after he does it. As long as he thinks I'm prettier doesn't matter to me!

I imagine Mel is typing up her response to the groping tactic.

If I remember correctly she loves men that grope.

SWW

JK, as I read through that situation in the store, I got the same sick feeling as you.
So, no you are not overreacting.
I bet that I know everything that is in your head right now.

He's not taking EP's seriously enough.
He lied, until confronted.
You don't feel like he has really changed.

All huge factors to make you feel unsafe.
He doesn't get the impact that his A has had.

I would say to post this to Dr. Harley as well, and ask your H to read the response.
Will your H do some coaching with your MB coach?
This may help him to understand how his actions affect you. I know that he should know, I also know that he may not be trying to disregard and hurt you intentionally.
I want to use the word stupid, but that would be DJ, so I won't.
Unintentionally thoughtless, that's better.
I hope this is the case with your H.

To me, a spouse, aka married and that has had an A, (esp. after an A) has to be extra closed eye to attractive people.
It is a trigger to a BS, huge!

Thanks everyone-

Mel - interestingly enough, I posted a similiar situation about a year ago to Dr Harley and he pretty much said exactly what Vittoria said. He isnt taking EP's seriously and was starting to back slide.

And you are right, I havent recovered and I dont think I will with him.
'
Sapphire - your response was interesting to me. I see you were the wayward - it explains alot.

I am going to post to Dr Harley and see what he says although I suspect it will be dead on with most of the opinions here.

MiM - if it were looking, I wouldnt care. This wasnt looking.

Not true - most of us would help out the elderly woman too, at least those of us with manners. MIL's don't count .


Of course not, which is not surprising - physical attractiveness usually isn't that big an EN for women.

Did you just call your MIL elderly? Oh MIM you better change that QUICK.

LOL - it's one of the tamer descriptions I have for her. The others are somewhat unmentionable .

I ain't buying it, MIM. Look at her comments:

That is not a stare or glance, but a LEER. WITH EYE CONTACT. If my H did that I would bitchslap him so hard his future grandchildren would feel it. Every women knows what kind of guy does that.

NOT IN MY HOUSE!! This is keep your mitts off the merchandise house!!

Now see, my DH does sometimes glance at pretty women, and I think it is cute. Especially when I nail him on it:

DH, very subtly doing a sideways glance at some woman

Mel: are you looking at that skankho??

DH: OMG, did you see how stupid those pants look on that woman?? If I were her husband I would be so embarrassed! I am so glad you don't go out looking like that!

I'm so sorry Kim.
This is just so sad, and a damn shame.

I intentionally developed the habit of looking away whenever a woman I wasn't married to made me feel aroused, before I even met my wife, because I knew that kind of behavior was destructive for a marriage, and I wanted to have a good marriage some day. I developed this habit ten years ago. I wasn't familiar with Marriage Builders at the time, but I was familiar with how to develop a new habit. The habit has stuck fairly well for about ten years. Prior to that I was happy to look at and fantasize about everything in a skirt.

Any man can and should learn this, if he cares about his wife.

I can certainly tell when my husband is "glancing" or "leering".

His leering involves cocking one eyebrow with a half-smile (making sure his dimples show), and he has a slightly narrowed and speculative look in his eye..as in "hmmm...wonder what it would be like to $#%@ her!" He's usually also sucking his gut in.

He's quit doing that, though...at least, when he's with me.

I'm sorry, JK. I think I would call him on it right then and there.

That is funny Mel....I agree there is a difference between a glance and a gawk or stare or even eye contact...Anything other than a glance to me is a no no...


Funny thing is all the years WH and I were together I never even saw him glance, I dont know what he did when I wasnt around, but with me never even a glance....Then he cheated on me and left...So he wasnt gay or dead...IDK what it means but

Also he would help everyone old men, old ladies, good lookin guys and good lookin girls...he did not care. I guess his coworker (OW) needed some help too....Now he wouldnt help ME if I begged for it...weird huh?

I wouldnt stand for it JK....Not at all...

Rant alert:

Sorry to hear this but here is my opinion

Your husband is behaving like a self absorbed entitled jerk. Regardless of the fact that we as men may find the opposite sex attractive, we were given brains with the responsibility to gird ourselves with morals and boundaries.

Where does it say it is OK to show insensitivity and disrespect to someone, whom you are supposed to show life long devotion and protection to. I am sorry to sound so harsh but I am getting weary of hearing about how my fellow males are seemingly unable to restrain themselves and act with a level of decorum that is worthy of being called a gentleman.

I am a supporter of marriage. And as part of the CONTRACT there are some important clauses, such as making your wife your number one desire, and to communicate that on a regular basis, in an attempt to reassure her of her esteemed position. And that needs to be reciprocated by the wife to the husband. For pity sakes, if we cannot elevate ourselves above our urges, we need to start walking on our knuckles. Does he comprehend what the promise "Forsaking all others" means?

This behavior is inexcusable, rude, disrespectful, inconsiderate, filled with entitlement, insensitive, and droll. Your husband needs to grow up and act like a gentleman. He needs to treat you with respect and consideration. From reading your post the man is either deaf, stupid or uncaring.

Rant almost over.

I guess I have been on here sufficiently long to have a sense of grief when I see how we as a society allow behavior such as this. If this were in my grandfathers time the man would be escorted outside and given a lesson, on decorum, by his peers. Perhaps it is time for us to reintroduce some of those good old time values.

Rant over.

Blessings
BCBoy

Yeah, what BCboy said...Yeah, that...

I would disagree MIM....

I'm not better than anyone, nor am I gay..... Yet I chose to eliminate those habits.

I used to say the same things though... Until I began working MB and fighting for my marriage. It's my job to protect my wife.... Always!

I learned that saying "it is simply what we do", was thoughtless behavior that was no more than an extremely annoying habit.

It is a choice to stare at other women, or present yourself as JK's H has done. It was a choice to lie about it as well. He lied for one reason and one reason only.... because he knew what he had done was wrong! I would go a step further and say he lied to protect himself from any consequenses, and even to continue his fantasy.

It's amazing how many men cling to the idea that it's OK to act like we are still single and look at other women, even though we are married..... It's even more amazing to me how those that were BS's and FWS's can act as though this behavior is not thoughtless?????

Bravo markos, BCBoy and tst!

There are some wonderful men left in the world... Too bad all men didnt think the same way, huh?

DITTO!!!!

There are still good guys!

I have just noticed over the past few months that there are women who are actually more attractive than The Leopard. Imagine that.

Hi JustKim.

Most guys know the difference between leering and noticing and looking. If MIM is confused at this point he needs to ask his W and not ask the people here. Basic commone knowledge.

The most important thing Kim is that in a marriage if one partner advises the other that he/she feels unfomcortable with any type of behavior, the partner needs to comply. Simple as that and no definitions needed.

You need to set your H down and tell him how You feel about his behavior and how it affects you. Then simply says this makes you uncomfortable, and that you are not going to tolerate it. Just walk away from him if he gives you excuses. If it makes you uncomfortable, then it is up to him to honor and respect your feelings.

Tom

LOL
Fred is officially alive I tell ya, ALIVE !!!

What Tom Said

Hi, JKs husband here.

I read the rant from BCBoy, couldn't agree with you more (except for the 'droll' part, still scratching my head over that one.)

You are absolutely right. What I did was incredibly stupid. I feel terrible about hurting JK yet again and I don't plan on making that particular mistake again. From now on if I notice anyone that JK might perceive to be a threat I'll be directing my gaze towards JK. I hope to make into something of a game wherein I can catch her looking for me to screw up.

Thanks everyone for your support of JK. She is an incredible women and deserves far more than me.

sigh.

There is nothing in my H's post that means anything to me. Its just a bunch of empty words, again.

In fact, I find it particularly interesting that he couldnt pass up an opportunity to feel all superior and smarmy on a perhaps contextually incorrect usage of a word. HE is the superior one, you see. HE would never use a word out of context. But, he WOULD have an affair, lie, stonewall, gaslight and completely disrespect me.

and now Im the one that is scratching my head.........

JKH, I have a couple of problems with what you posted. You made it about JK and not YOU. You said, "if I notice anyone that JK might perceive to be a threat I'll be directing my gaze towards JK." You DIDN'T take accountability for YOUR actions here. WHat you said was, "When I see an attractive woman, instead of teaching myself NOT to look, I will LOOK, figure out if she is HOTTER than my DW, then I will look at my DW."

Also, I had HUGE problems with THIS, "I hope to make into something of a game wherein I can catch her looking for me to screw up." The use of the word GAME in this sentence shows HUGE disrespect for her feelings. You then go on to say that you are going to "catch" her? WTH? Catch her catching you doing something wrong? What do you have to "catch" her doing? That would imply that she is doing something WRONG. She is NOT.

I don't know all of your background info(yet). I know there is a lot of help to be found here. It is the reader's decision to follow the advice, however.

Thanks, Scotty

You captured alot of how I am feeling and am unable to put into words. When I read my H's post, I saw a massively passive aggressive response and not much that was genuine.

For 4 years, I have struggled long and hard to recover. Ive put SO MUCH work into us, to the exclusion of everything in my life.

I dont really think its worth it. My H, I fear is a lost cause. When I read BCB's post, I had a sinking feeling in my gut. I was afraid, you see - to know that my H really is all of those things BCB wrote. So, I asked my H to read the post. He did and when reading it, he snorted and remarked with a tone of great disdain... "droll?"

So, my H responds. He responds with what he thinks I would want to hear, what he should say. In fact, what he is really saying comes through pretty clearly in his post.

Even Ms. Manners has written about this.

She calls checking out the other sex while your spouse is present just. plain. rude.

On MB, I beleive this falls under the category of EP's - to me it is a no brainer, and people who excuse this as "men's natural reaction" are simply giving themselves a free pass.

Passing gas is also a natural reaction, too. Does not mean you should do it in public, even if you spies a purty gurl!

I'm sorry he continues to be insensitive to your feelings....the fact that he hid what he was doing and pretended it didn't happens makes me worry .........why would he stare and send a message he was interested.....what would he do if she responded to him?
Tell him this made you feel bad and ask him to be more aware of your feelings in this kind of situation......
If he is serious about wanting to make you feel comfortable he will not continue this behaviour......
Maybe you should give him a taste of his own medicine the next time you see an attractive guy.......can't hurt to get him thinking

A related issue for me is when older/mid age men are checking out a girl 20 years their junior. (like she would give them the time of day, seriously!)


I hate to tell you this, guys- but you are wasting your time.

Absolutely. I ALWAYS felt it was disrespectful to do it when you are with someone of the opposite sex. My Dad used to check out women when I was with him and even as a child of 11, I would feel extremely uncomfortable. When I would "catch" my WH looking, I would only make a comment to let HIM know that I saw him do it. It wasn't something I ever told him that he needed to stop though. Oh, if only I received a book by DrH as a wedding present. Guess what I will be giving out as presents from now on.

Hi MrJK! I don't think it was stupid, I think it was indicative of how you treat women outside of your marriage. This is how you act when Kim is not around.

It was a revelation that your marriage is still not affair proofed BY YOU after all these years. Kim senses this and it is driving her CRAZY.

So no, I don't think it was stupid, I think it was profoundly dangerous. And the extent of the danger was revealed.

Saying it was "stupid" and promising to not do it again is not reassuring to me at all. It makes me wonder what else you do behind her back.

Would you be willing to take a polygraph?

I college I was very pretty but also very shy. I HATED it when men checked me out. - especially the older dudes. I was usually working, so what can you do? It is embarrassing- and kind of creepy.

My daughter (very attractive kid) has quit eating dinner at restaurants because she can't eat while men are staring at her. She used to put her hand in front of her face, lean over the table and try to eat quickly.

I used to give the perp. the "stinkeye" -the young ones turn red and look away - but some men do not get this. OR take hints.

when she was 11 or so this started. (She is very tall, but she was just a kid!)

You got a glimpse behind the curtain, Kim, when you saw him leer at that woman. He does that when you are not around. What stands out to me is that he has not affair proofed your marriage in all these years.

I think your instincts are right and I understand why you are still of anxiety after all this time.

and before you ask. NO, at 11 she was wearing hoodies, jeans and sneakers, no makeup.

She is just a natural blonde, china blue eyes the size of Texas and lets say, "chesty".

Copying my post from the other thread:

I think what your husband did was horrible Independent Behavior and Dishonesty. The fact is that YOU DO NOT APPROVE. What he did was thoughtless because you do not approve of him doing it. He is showing no care for your feelings.

Now, the question is, is this a one-time incident, or a habit? And what do all of his other habits do for you? Do they make you feel in love, or are there other habits like this?

For the record, I read your #1 and I think that the average man would not connect what he did with your self-esteem issues. You had just discussed it but, surprisingly, he probably did not see a connection. Many men are simply that way, and have to be educated.

Also, I noticed you mentioned that it wasn't just a 30 second glance ... to me a 30 second glance is a tremendous problem. A man ought to not glance for more than mere seconds. And he definitely ought not to try to hide his glancing from his wife. And if he lies about that, it's extremely serious.

I think you need to set the bar very high.

Again, I'm curious about his other habits, and if this behavior is a habit.

If a man doesn't believe he is obligated to avoid temptation by looking away, it's staring.


The offended wife. The offended always gets to make the call on what is or is not a love bank withdrawal.

What was thoughtless the discussion afterwards. The problem here is much more pervasive than just thoughtless behavior. Kim said:

I think this behavior is indicative of the way he is when he is not around Kim. That is the crux of the issue here. Kim doesn't want to just be protected when he is around her, but especially when she is not around. Actually Mel (above) worded this much better than I did.

This is the point I was looking for - thank you, markos, for restoring my faith in the male gender.

Kim, we like to think we're important around here but at the end of the day it's what YOU think. And YOU think he crossed the line. I understand that the male of the species is typically visually oriented. Hence the huge success of porn magazines and websites. However, that doesn't give men carte blanche to letch after women with their tongues drooling. I'd like to think they've evolved a tad more than that.

Markos's post is a good example - okay, men like to look. They know they like to look. They also know about boundaries. There is a line that they know they shouldn't cross and your H knows he crossed it. The question is WHY. Maybe he hasn't consciously worked on this, or maybe he did and has let it slide. Time to pull him back in.

Have you considered "field training" with him? As in going places with him and observing him, letting him know when he is over the boundary for noticing women?

It amazes me how many guys think it's okay to stare at women to arouse yourself when you're single. I don't think it's appropriate behavior for a man, period.

This is NEVER a good idea, Jessie!

Kim, as I read posts yesterday, my first response was that maybe there was a slight over reaction on your part because of the A but I reread the entire thread this morning and I believe it would be a deal breaker for me. I would consider it having "caught" him in the very early stage of another A and I agree that this is very obviously the way he acts when you are not around.

I also think that in this stage of your R, it is up to him to come up with how he can make you feel safe about his shaky boundaries. His single post yesterday reeks of entitlement and blame shifting.

My DH has come to realize in the last year or two that perhaps the farthest reaching consequence of his A is that he is now married to a different woman. He is married to a woman forever changed by his selfishness and unfaithfullness. I always say that I will not allow myself to be defined by his adultery but sadly, I now see everything through affair colored glasses. I wish I didn't have to but it is my instinctive means of self preservation.

My DH has never told me that I will never be able to put this behind us or trust him again but he knows that is the truth. I will also never playfully point out a beautiful scantily dressed young woman to him and say, "Don't miss that one!" It is just a small part of the price he pays and he is smart enough to know that.

God's Blessings,

Say

Both were pretty thoughtless, no?


I suspect so, too, which is why I am curious about his other habits and what they reveal.

It does not sound like this is an isolated incident in the life of a man who otherwise has implemented EPs and love-bank-depositing habits.

Thanks, everyone for your insightful and helpful posts. I think it is unlikely that my h will post here as he feels like" he doesn't get any support here" and he needs to find a forum where he WILL get support. My H tellsme he feels very alienated from me and distant now. That I'm not supporting him and he needs my approval. He says this is not indicative of his behavior, it's an unfair portrayal and he simply " failed to be vigilant and was immediately chastised for it " and " lesson learned"

my heart is breaking. I don't know how to get through to someone who thinks like this and I fear I have no choice but to file for seperation which I'm looking in to now

This is awful

Any mention of YOUR feelings ?
Or, is it all about his feelings of chastisement?

But you're the one who was wronged. You need his support, right?


Then he should do things you approve of instead of things you disapprove of, right? That would be the ordinary way of getting someone's approval.


I say that's for you to decide, not him.


You portrayed it exactly as it happened, did you not?

Well he apologizes. Says he is sorry. That he knows he hurt me and that I must feel awful. So, He is acknowledging how I feel, sort of.

I'll tell you how I feel. I feel like I did after dray, realizing that I thought we were a proof and we aren't. And he is foggy. Says he is sorry but then complains he isn't getting support from me and turns this into him being a victim. That Ive chastised him

It's such bs

You've been on my mind JK, I'm so sorry that you are being made to feel this way,
I say being made cuz it's his actions and lack of care and insight that don't allow for you to feel any other way, other than not safe.
Melody's word of dangerous is the perfect description.

I understand that you need to take action to protect yourself, the risk of hurt is too great. It's so maddening that they (WS's) put us in this position,
a position of taking drastic steps, steps that again we have to initiate, all to protect ourselves,
when it's been their lack of care that has made us feel like this to begin with.

He is foggy, I agree. I so believe that the core feeling of selfishness in a WS has to be squashed, if it's not, it grows back into exactly what led them to disregard us in the first place.


By chance if Mr. JK is reading ........ you may think that you have fixed your thinking, if you have done this on your own,
realize that the only influence that you've had in that venture, has been your own skewed thoughts, which have proven to be detrimental to your spouse.
It's possible to change your thinking, if you are willing to do the work. I believe that this is fixable, if you want it to be.
Regardless of what happens to your M, it's in the best interest of your family to at least explore how your thinking is dangerous.

How do I know that your thinking is selfish?
You didn't recognize that first step of not thinking of your BW, when you noticed that attractive female.
Then you went on to leer at her, again not even realizing that you were not thinking of how this would affect your BW.
It just got worse after that, and then finally to the point that you lied, to protect yourself.

It's that first step of not recognizing the danger, that led you to your A.
Your mind was on you, what made you feel good inside, and you followed that path, you continued staring, and
had the boldness to do it in front of your wife.

Use your MB coach Mr. JK, they are supportive and non judgmental. Just make the call.

Vittoria-

We are speaking to Kimberly once a week, and have been for about 6 weeks now. Id like to say its helping but Im afraid it really isnt. Not that it is anyone's fault but our own, of course.

Im weary, folks. This is a lot of effort for little or no return. I think Im going to throw in the towel. The rot here goes very very deep.

{{{{{JustKim}}}}}}

I think that I'm going to throw up.

I hope you mean wake up.

Bad sushi?

Just by staring at it (when JK wasn't looking)...

Wait...I have a smiley for that...

Thats nice that he is "sorry," but sorry is not enough. You are married to a man who behaves like he is a single man behind your back. [or a leering creepy old fart ] That is how he behaves when you are not looking, Kim. Saying "sorry" is cute and winsome but it does nothing to alleviate the problem.

There is a REASON you have never recovered and this is why. He is catting around like a single man looking for action. You sense it and are having a hard time putting your finger on it. You were lucky enough to get a glimpse of how he acts when you aren't around. The only "stupid" mistake was letting you glimpse it.

Frankly, I wouldn't be interested in such a man, Kim. A man who cheats is repulsive enough as it is. To have to tolerate skanky behavior like this is so disgusting that I cant even fathom that you could be in love.

Until he gets honest about his REAL PROBLEM, that he has a single man, alley cat mentality, you are facing a lifetime of this: a death of a thousand cuts.

Just imagine how your wife feels? And she is the one who got punched in the face here.

MisterJK, Kim says you are looking for "support." Sir, you are not going to get any "support" for acting like a creepy, dirty old man and hurting your wife and then saying "whoops!! I was being stupid."

You are being stupid if you think that crap is going to fly around here.

You were not being "stupid," you were being yourself. And that is the problem.

Can you even fathom why a woman would want to be with a man who acts sleazy like that around other women? Any decent woman is going to look down on a married man who leers at other women like a perv. It is GROSS and disgusting. It is utter disrespect to your wife.

You have shamed her.

No, Mel...I think he meant to say GROW UP! Right MisterJK....

I'm really sorry.

Good to see you have an account of your own. Please start a thread of your own, so we can talk.

How come?

Hi JustKim,

Read up on your thread and the only mistake I can see on your part is to allow your H to post here, but when he did he pretty much gave himself away.

Kim, imho your H is a 50-year-old guy acting like an adolescent. He probably realises that physically he cannot anymore attract many women, so he seems to be using aggression. Leering, as you say he did, is an act of aggression much more than desire. Believe me it is, especially with him making it so obvious. A former friend of mine from work did this and it embarassed me, much less to think of the women he leered at. I didn't respect him and fairly quickly I ended contact with him. He was eventually fired by the company that we both formerly worked for. The last I heard he is divorced but living with his daughter.

My W and and I have experienced this a few times, and it was mostly regarding older males. She felt very uncomfortable, and a couple of times stopped me from going over and talking to the guy. One time we just cancelled our order and left the restaurant we were at.

Imho again Kim, I think this has a little more to do with just your marriage. It has to do with him and whatever he feels inadequate about. I feel he needs individual counseling.

Consider yourself lucky tho Kim. He could have done this to a woman whose H was around, and then you may have had to wait for three hours while he was fitted for a neck brace at the emergency room.

Hang in there, but as someone else posted here I don't believe for one minute this is a one-time thing. Consider talking to him about counseling.

Tom

My goodness was that really necessary?

Can't take the heat?

Thank you all for your posts and opinions. Id like to address most of them collectively here

First, while I thank you all from the bottom of my heart, please please be respectful to Mister JK. He made the effort to get a log in and post and has gotten slammed. Please. He needs your help. While I understand better than anyone how his behavior is worthy of contempt, it is not helping him or me. So, if you could be a little kinder, Id be awfully grateful.

Second- to Tom - I think you missed the mark. My H is 51, true - but as a former marine, he is in excellent physical shape and is a strikingly handsome man. He looks 35, tops. So, he can still attract women easily enough. Which might not be a good thing.... at least if you are married to the guy.

And, His personality is the exact opposite of aggressive. As a matter of fact, he is alarmingly passive. To the point of inertia most days. That isnt to say of course that there isnt alot of hidden aggression in the passivity. I KNOW there is. I personally saw his first post as a very PA type of response.

My H was very upset at reading all of these posts and he knows that I am likely to leave him. His response about throwing up was in reaction to that.

Here is the truth. He is a smart guy with very little emotional intelligence. He doesnt have very well developed interpersonal skills and Im not sure he understands how to have a relationship or genuine intimacy.

If you good people could help him to understand, Id be terribly grateful.

I think its too late for us, but maybe helping him to learn these things will save someone else some pain somewhere down the road.

DJ, FWIW.


I think that's essentially how a lot of us saw it, as well.


It's learned behavior, so he can be taught and learn. Given the incident you started this thread with, it looks like he's had a long time to learn and has chosen not to. I'm worried that perhaps your bar has not been set high enough. Have you told him, at this point, what will keep you in this marriage?

This is why I'm also curious about if this behavior is a habit, and what his other habits are like. From this, it sounds like he does not have many habits that contribute toward you being in love. Four years into recovery?

"He is a smart guy with very little emotional intelligence"- Is a DJ on your part. stop that.

PA can be extreme anger, just diffused in clandestine ways. The issue is, that most times PA people will not admit there IS a problem. Without that, there is little hope for improvement.

He can start his own thread and stay off yours. Old rule.

Checking out other women, to the extent you describe, is a symptom to another, bigger issue. IMHO.

Good luck.

Markos, Cat

Point taken. DJ. Got it. I can see how that would be considered a DJ. There is a part of me that wants to respond with "But its true..." but Im going to go with the DJ thing. You are likely right.

Markos -

Yes, 4 years. The first 2 years of recovery were me dragging a reluctant H through all the work needed. What I eman when I say reluctant is that he was reluctant to do the work required. NOT that he was reluctant to end the A. He threw OW under the bus pretty quickly after d day. He just didnt seem to want to put in much effort into making things better. He WANTED them to be better, of course. But I did all the heavy lifting.


I think he would tell you differently. I think he feels that he has learned alot. Have I told him what would keep me in it? No. Because right now, I dont think much will.

Last night, I did say to my H that I believed and knew he was trying. That I also knew that he had never tried in any relationship with anyone ( spouse or no ) in his entire life. People just didnt mean that much to him and if it was a hassle, he would do nothing and let it end. I told him that I could see that he is trying and that compared to how he has always been, his efforts to him must seem Herculean. But to me, that they are just normal marital investment. My H will tell you himself that he hasnt spent alot of time outside his personal comfort zone.


Yes, 4 years. The first year was all hysterical bonding with me doing alot of work. Year 2 was more of me doing all the work, and a good amount of resentment on my part. Years 3 and 4 have mostly seen some investment on the part of my H and a growing discontent and distance in me. Most days, I feel like had I known I was in for this, I would have thrown int he towel on d day. Like most BS's here, I feel that the only way I could stay, to work through the pain was to be justly compensated with a great marriage. And I dont have that.

So, what have we done? Counseling w Steve Harley for 8 months, coaching with Kimberly even now. MB weekend. 2 imago weekends, and a completely ineffectual marriage counselor. Thousands of dollars in self help books.

And we still are broken.

Kim, the problem that I see here is that your H has really not taken ownership of affair proofing your marriage. He does what he has to do in front of you, but has not really bought into it when you aren't looking. This is why your instincts are sending off red alerts.

He has to AFFAIR PROOF himself and until he does that, I don't think all the education in the world can overcome his lack of affair proofing. *HE* should be policing himself when he is alone and he is not doing that.

BC


Indeed. My H will openly admit that "He used to react in very PA ways" but he doesnt see it now. He claims that he "isnt" this way anymore. Which of course, doesnt seem possible. He has gotten no help for it, learned no new ways of coping. He is just as PA as ever, just deeper underground about it. Is that a DJ?


I agree. And here is where I get all confused and muddled. My H claims this incident was an anomalie. He says that he doesnt ever do this and that it happened just this time because " He failed to be vigilant". Im a smart woman. I realize that is likely to be far from the truth. Yet, how can I have a discussion with someone about this when he wont even be HONEST about this behavior? How can I want to commit or be with someone who cant come clean? The truth is, I cant. I cant feel safe with him so Im left with the only solution open to me, which is to leave. I dont want to leave, I just dont see any other way.

He SWEARS he is telling the truth. That this was a one time thing. And I dont believe a minute of it. As a matter of fact, I think this is part of a much more sinister, darker side of my H that Ive never seen and he has hidden from me. And I think that somehow, I sense that and THATS the real reason why Ive never recovered.

Mel- I agree. But, again- how can I even talk to him about this? He insists and swears that he HAS affair proofed himself. That he would rather shoot himself in the head than ever have another affair. He SAYS all the right things but then acts in a completely different manner. It leaves me no where to go.


Right again. Its a long ingrained habit in my H ( and again - no DJ intended) that he leaves everything up to someone else. If we were borken, its up to me to fix it. Everything has been left up to me to fix, decide, research. He wants to assume responsibility for nothing. And let me tell you, that is no fun. Im worn out by being the one that is responsible for all the maritial wear and tear. So, its not surprise to me that he wouldnt see himself as responsible for policing himself, or for his own behavior.

I cant help but feel like I am not enough. If I was enough, or mattered more - he would do all these things. Intellectually, of course, I understand that I should internalize someone else's poor behavior and make it about my lack of worth, but I do.

Thats my own personal learning curve.

The fact that you are here and he is here tells me that it isn't too late. I would change your conscious thinking about that.

Your H doesn't see what he's doing because what he's doing is normal for him. He may say it's an 'anomalie' but I suspect he does it much more than he realizes.

You can sit and watch someone with their legs crossed, wiggling their foot like it's having its own seizure, and when you point it out they're surprised they're doing it. Habit.

I'm going to go back to what I mentioned in an earlier post. Your H needs help overcoming this habit of staring at women. Consider 'training' your H in appropriate ways to navigate around women.

First of all, he need to understand that women don't appreciate leering. Whether they communicate that to him or not is immaterial. When he leers at a woman he is pushing her boundaries. That's disrespectful to the woman and makes her uncomfortable. He needs to realize that as a means of personalizing this strange woman. She's not just a piece of meat to be stared at. She's a human being with boundaries.

Next, go out with your H to places where there will be women. Grocery stores, malls, etc. Walk behind him and observe how he reacts to the women he sees. Give him a critique on how he does. This is not meant to be a DJ. You'll need to approach this as his 'coach' and he'll need to allow you to do that.

My H had a similar issue - for some reason he needed to engage people wherever we went, making silly "hey look at me I'm somebody" type comments. It could be the grocery bagger, cart boy, whomever. So much so that you could imagine them rolling their eyes when we left.

One time, he was getting his hair cut and the salon's phone rang. He jumped up and ANSWERED IT, thinking it would be funny. The girl who cuts both of our hair told me about it later - she was appalled, and said "If that had been my boss I would have been in trouble." He did it to get attention, to make people think he was funny. He didn't consider that it was just a bid for attention that could have had negative consequences for someone. It was all about attention, which is an EN of his.

Anyway, don't want to threadjack - my point is that I had to help teach him that it was inappropriate to go 'over the top' to get the attention of strangers while conducting his business. He never realized he was doing it.

Hope this helps.

I didn't know that was your H, just thought it was a troll. Hi, Mister JK! Hey, start your own thread - don't worry about the heat. We're not going to 2X4 you to be mean - we're here to help you.

Will MR jk have one phone call with the Harley's?

There's an evil little part of me that says that DJs usually are true. They are still DJs.

I think that's really minor compared to the rest of what's going on. Your DJ amounts to nothing compared to the fact that your wayward husband is not taking extreme precautions and is not engaged in a plan for recovery.

I think you know that Marriage Builders says you should have gone into Plan B a long time ago. It sounds like you have been doing a great Plan A for FOUR YEARS, which is way, way too long for anybody.

When your wayward doesn't take extreme precautions and doesn't engage in a plan for recovery, you go to Plan B to protect your sanity.

I know you say want to Plan D right now. I encourage you to start Plan D with a declaration of what it would take to keep you in the marriage, followed by a statement that since you are not getting that, YOU ARE OUT. Followed by divorce papers.

Yesterday you said it was over. Today you are expressing concern for your husband's future. It doesn't sound to me like you are done. I suspect your husband has been able to live down to low expectations from you; I suspect that the last four years have had a number of other things done by your husband that have bothered you that you have decided to "let slide" "for the sake of the marriage" or something like that. This is not Marriage Builders!! Marriage Builders does not advocate you staying in a marriage that sucks when your husband is a wayward!

Make it a firm Plan D or B (they are awfully similar in the beginning), with a firm NON-NEGOTIABLE declaration of what would have kept you in the marriage, followed by GETTING THE HELL OUT OF THERE. It is possible a miracle might happen and your husband might realize he could have a chance at winning you back by actually working on the marriage. But this is not possible if your resolve keeps weakening. I suspect you had the "possible he might change and win me back" scenario in your post where you talked about your husband hopefully discovering how to live so that whoever gets stuck with him next could be saved down the road. I could be wrong. But that is what it sounded like to me.

Well, shoot, that would make him a liar in addition to being a creep, wouldn't it? He can't have learned too much. He skipped the first and most important lessons.


According to Marriage Builders, you were supposed to tell him somewhere around Plan A or B, four years ago. Perhaps he hasn't figured it out because he wasn't told. I am NOT saying his behavior is your fault; it is inexcusable. I am saying that he is still a wayward and won't live up to former wayward status until he is required to.


That's horrible for you to have to live through that, Kim. And it isn't Marriage Builders. Marriage Builders would be closer to having you throwing him under the bus and not welcoming him back to try recovery if he isn't willing to lift harder than that.


Are you scared to raise the bar too high for him because you believe he'll perceive it as a hassle and let your marriage end?

In that case, I suggest you get away from him, fast.


Then his investment is completely misguided. He is doing the wrong things and wasting effort. Plan B would protect you from this growing discontent and distance.


So why did you stay four years without it? What is your time limit for how long you will put up with this?


I don't understand. I've bought every single Marriage Builders book, and it didn't cost thousands of dollars. Marriage Builders is the program that works. Why are you spending thousands of dollars on books that don't work? For $100 you can have all the books from the program that works. Burn those other books and stick to the program that works.

No, that is your instincts letting you know that there is an extraordinary, severe problem and that your husband is not engaged in a plan of recovery and should be shown the door.

I am concerned that you have ignored your instincts for far too long, and will ignore them now.

ROAD-

Im sure he would have a call with the Harleys. As I mentioned we are no stranger to counseling with them and it is hugely helpful.

MR JK is starting his own thread although I see that it was started for him, so thank you!

Two years of you doing the heavy lifting, followed by two years of him "lifting" in ways that do absolutely nothing for you? This incident is not an anomaly: it fits perfectly into his wayward pattern of not practicing caring love for you nor engaging in a plan for recovery. Go to Plan B or D because he hasn't met the standards to be given a chance for recovery, yet.


Oh, no. You have seen this sinister, darker side. It's the side that required you to do all the heavy lifting for two years and has then wasted the next two years by not engaging in a plan for recovery. He hasn't hidden it at all. I'm worried you've been ignoring it.

JK:

I have followed your story since you got here. I have seen the rollercoaster that you are on. Its time for you to step on to the platform, and watch the cosater go by for a few turns.

Your stated this:


Your not broken. MrJK is. You have put in the effort to fiix your marriage, to have someone who is sitting on the sidelines, enjoying the benefits, (hysterical bonding) and not doing the other things necessary to move this M forward. Sure, he sat in the room, and went to the weekend. But after a while, its about changing behaviors.

And MrJK is content to watch the parade, but not participate. That is why you get to step of onto the platform. You do NOT have to have a marraige like you have any longer.

Its his turn to do the work.

Its his turn to change the behaviors and habits.

Its his turn to help you feel safe in this marraige. To feel loved and cherished.

Because when you are DONE, than no matter what, the M will end. And maybe, that is what MrJK needs to see, to finally get in gear.

LG

Don't waste any more time talking than the time it takes to say "This is what would have kept me in the marriage. Bye."

You said you were done. Are you?


Don't you understand that waywards lie? With a wayward you have to ignore what they are saying and look at what they are doing. You've told us what he's done: abused you for two years, then tricked you into accepting wasted effort for two years. Wayward.

Im concerned about this too. It very well may be time to throw in the towel but am I on the fence? You betcha. There are some really great things about my H.

I dont want a divorce. I want the parts of my H that I dont love and respect to become parts that I DO love and respect. I want him to change habits, and get fully on board with MB.

I want to give him a chance, and I need you folks to help him. I cant explain things to him in a way he understands so Im hoping maybe others can.

Will you help us?

Markos


Are you saying my H still has a wayward mindset or is still actively wayward?

Im compiling a list now of what I need in order to stay in the M and I am setting the bar VERY VERY high. You are right, in the past it was set so low. I didnt think I was worth it. I didnt think he'd put in much effort to keep me. I suppose he really hasnt, in a lot of ways.

I will post my list here, and My H will post on his own thread.

You seem to feel that your husband is awfully fragile.

I've only been here a few months, and already I've seen SEVERAL waywards go through heat much hotter than what has been expressed on this thread and come out as beautiful pottery because of the baking process. With a lovely calligraphic "F" burned in.

The ones that crack in the kiln are the ones that had fatal flaws in the first place.

Your husband is a big boy, I promise you.

J/K:

I still think that you are Flamingo.

Except I was never a Marine. I was Air Force.

I read your posts and say: That's my Flamingo. I KNOW what I had to do to help Flamingo feel safe.

I hope that MrJK does the same things.

There are many good qualities about him. I would like to think that there were many good qualities about me as well. I just had to work on the ones that made Flamingo NOT feel safe. I am sure that they are very similar to the same ones that MrJK is missing.

So there is hope.

LG

I think the same, I think that this is fixable.
I'm not 4 yrs. into R, and I have not felt like you have for this long. I would support whatever it is that you feel that you need to do to protect yourself, at this time.
Mr.JK has work to do. The fact that you feel this unsafe in this M, is due to his lack of care and protection of YOU. Period.
He is not understanding that although he feels that he has A-proofed his M, he has not.
It comes down to, is he even willing to explore the fact that his thinking is not fixed as well as he may think.

That's the tough one, we as BS's can give all the feedback, unless the WS is open to looking DEEP into that mirror, what we say and do, means very little.


I agree with this too. I think that this is habit.
A habit in two parts. One part is the leering, one part is thinking of his own needs. The part that is occupied with himself, and what satisfies him, is the part that
should be concerned with protecting you and the M.
Habits can be broken, we know that.
Whether Mr.JK feels the benefit to break this habit and move his thinking towards the M, is up to him.
This is the part that is so frustrating for a BS, we want them
to so desperately think like we want them too. It's a tough one to accept.

Unless Mr.JK does this for himself, it's not genuine and the same LB's creep back in, the same ones that led to the devastation from the A.

To Mr. JK ..... Another A doesn't have to occur Mr. JK, for the demise of the M, one that has already threatened by adultery.

If you are so inclined Mr. JK, starting your own thread and posting would be a first step. If you are not comfortable with that, at least read some threads of WS's.
The insight that hopefully you will gain, will help you to understand how to move your thinking from you, to JK and your M.

You could start with this one.
Extra-Ordinary Precautions

LG-

You are one of my favorite posters and the very first one to post to me four years ago. You were a lifeline then, as now.

You are right. You are all right.

Im starting with a list of what I need to stay in the M. I will post it here and hopefully you good people can help me see what I am missing. Do I add a timeline? That seems excessive.

The truth is, I dont really know how to do this.

MBliss

I dont want to skip over your post- this thread is moving fast and furious! Alot of what you said resonated with me.


You are right about changing my thinking. IF I decide to recommit, my thinking will change. Like LG said, Ive been at this a LONG time and have fallen into the massively distructful habit of "thats it, I cant take it anymore" and then..... having no plan, floundering around in misery for a few days and then getting back on the horse, or at least, dragged around by it.

NO MORE.

I need a plan. A plan that focuses on first, my own recovery and second, possibly recovery for my M IF MR JK can step up.

I am saying he at least has a wayward mindset. It would not surprise me to find out he is still wayward, too. He molested a woman visually in your presence; I'd call that "wayward."


I am so glad to hear this!!


Honey, it's the wayward whose not worth it if he's not willing to reform from the wayward mindset.

Vittoria

That is such a valid statement and very true. My gut feeling is, he wont/cant/doesnt know how but Im going to let him decide.

Markos -

I DO think my H is VERY VERY sensitive to what he sees as an attack. When this happens, he withdraws and becomes defensive. Its like banging on a turtle shell. He's just not coming out after that and you wont get anywhere. That doesnt mean he shouldnt hear some hard truths. He does. Im just asking that we dont scare him away.

Im a protector by nature. I root for the under dog, drive miles out of my way to give cash and supplies every week to a homeless guy. I have huge empathy for anyone hurting. Does Mr JK deserve my grace? I think he does. Dont we all deserve it?

I get that Mr JK has also likely taken advantage of this part of me, and used it to coast. For a LONG time.

LG- if you would be kind enough to post to Mr JK when he shows up, Im sure he would find it super helpful, if you are saying that I remind you of Flamingo. Perhaps some perspective from someone who has recovered their M would be a great kick start to project Recovery.

If Kim becomes willing to pull the trigger on Plan B or D, then, yes, I think it is.

That's the main change I think she needs to become willing to make.

I think she's spent a lot of time changing everything else hoping that it would prevent her from having to fire that trigger. I think all that effort has worn her out. She's been in Plan C with a wayward for four years!!!

Kim, I just want to mention that giving him a list of things that would make you willing to stay in the marriage won't accomplish anything if you aren't willing to leave the marriage over them.

See how pathetically slow I am, lol.
As I was posting, and doing other things, Mr. JK has his own thread.

I hate fast moving threads!!!!! lol

JK, FWIW, I understand where you are coming from, all to well.
Not so much the specifics, but the mentality part.....yes.

It can be fixed, just not fast.

I hate Recovery!

Exactly! It doesn't work if you do the heavy lifting, Kim.

Is it only an "ingrained habit" for your H to leave everything up to you? Or has it also become an ingrained habit for you to take care of/manage everything for your H?


As an exmarine, I'm sure he faced more difficult situations than getting a few 2x4's on a message board.

He knew exactly what he was doing when he posted those seven carefully chosen words, "I think I'm going to throw up."

He knew you would jump into action to help manage his feelings. B/c that is what you always do. That is what works FOR HIM.

But does it work for you? Can you allow him to feel unpleasant feelings w/o feeling as though you ought to do something about them?

Indeed you are right. I am ready to leave.

You are so right, I have been hoping that anything will happen to prevent me from pulling the trigger but I just cant live this way anymore. This has hit me harder than anything else has, nearly as hard as d day.

I AM prepared to leave. Im not afraid to leave. I want my M but I dont *need* my M.

I agree 100%.

Ok Peeps.

THE LIST

1. Polygraph
2. Counseling for him to explore:
a. why he is so emotionally unavailable learn new behaviors
b. tendency to employ PA coping mechanisms
c. tendency to not follow through on things promised
3. Call with Steve H to talk about plan to implement EP's
4. Follow MB religiously. Start over with weekly lessons.
5. Post here regularly and discuss with me how posts impact him

Thats it. Now that I read through this, I wonder why I never thought I was worth this before....

I have not posted to you before I don't think but I just wanted to say that so much of what you are dealing with strikes close to home. I just posted on the thread started for Mr.JK. It isn't much and I have not read your entire thread only most of it but I hope it might strike a chord with him. It can't be easy to feel so entitled to expect your wife to also be your mommy and allow her to suffer through whatever you feel like doing and then come here to suffer the 2x4's and learn to be a real husband but it can be done. It has to be done. I told GM he had to do it or I was not going to stay, I could not do all that lifting and I was tired of being the only one to take care of things. I am certain you have had that discussion a thousand times. I am hurting for you right now. You sound ready to call it quits and perhaps that is your best recovery. (((((hugs)))))

My suggestions:

1) Totally drop 2a, 2b, and 2c. You don't care WHY he does these things. Trying to figure it out is a waste of time. He has to fix them, or he's gone.

2) weekly calls with Steve as part of following MB; not to diminish in frequency until you and Steve both agree

3) do not go forward to this list until it has been reviewed by serious veterans here who have recovered marriages and have been on for years. You need more details in your list, but I don't personally know what.

You need to change this mindset as well. This puts you in the Renter category.

I would like to hear you say, and mean:
I am a very strong, independent woman. I can accomplish just about anything if I decide it's important to me to do so. I can live on my own and be very content. I want my M. I NEED my M. It is part of what makes me whole. It is part of what enables me to be who I am.

Your comment concerns me and makes me wonder how committed to your M you truly are. It makes me wonder if those negative feelings toward your M aren't being picked up by Mr. JK. and are affecting how he looks at your M.

Have you always felt this way toward your M, or is this since the A? Maybe you're burnt out from doing so much lifting by yourself? Just wondering...

DG

Did you have a previous screen name? I seem to recall your story from your tag line but under another name?


Can you explain this to me? What do you mean by that. I have a hard time understanding this "entitlement" thing. Entitled to what exactly? Im never really clear on what that means.

Thank you for posting to me. I hope you are doing ok

Kim, has your husband signed Dr. Harley's form agreement to meet your emotional needs and avoid love busters? Have you provided recently filled-out emotional needs and love busters questionnaires to him?

You are feeling so devastated because he isn't doing these things.

Can your husband list the ten Marriage Builders basic concepts?

(Can you? )

Bliss


At the moment, Im not terribly committed. I havent decided to commit *yet* I gave Mr JK the list and if he tells me he can do this - then I will be 100 percent committed. end of story.

And Ive always been a buyer. As Steve Harley said to me once

Markos

Funny man! I can name them but only if I cheat, thats how far we've gotten off track.

Lets see - I will be honest and name what I can without peeking.

1. 15 hours week together
2. no DJ's
3. POJA
4. Avoid being your spouses source of greatest unhappiness
5. meet emotional needs
6. no angry outbursts
7. No selfish demands


dear god! I was just saying the other day how much "smart' Ive lost. When I was in college, I retained SO MUCH.

Id better go brush up!!

Gotcha. My point is that repeating something over and over makes it flesh out in your mind. Maybe you don't feel committed right now (with reason, don't get me wrong.) But if you want to give this M once last, good tackle, I'd like to see you rewording your mental conversation with yourself. I think your current mental conversation is leading you toward that open door of D.

Bliss

You are right. Lets see how I feel in a day or too. When I DO commit, I commit fully, as I did 4 years ago. Its taken 4 years for me to get where I am now, so as you can see - I had a LOT of goodwill!

And I'm not gonna knock you, sister! That's taken some mental fortitude on your part. I think it's also taken a mental toll on you. I know it would have on me!

My thought is to change what you're thinking to: "It's been a tough 4 years, but I love my H and I love my M and I'm not going to end it without one last, good battle!"

You may not be totally in love with that whole idea, but repeat it to yourself anyway. See if it helps.

He will tell you this, no matter what.

Please don't make your decision based on his words.

I was sadsosad then madsomad as I made my way through the experience but when I began recovery I changed it to DancesWithGoats, a name inspired by our wonderful Pepperband.


He felt entitled to an affair. He feels entitled to leer at other women, insulting to both you and the other women. He feels entitled to let you handle all the work of recovery or learning how to get to that point. That is him being entitled, there is probably much more. It is also allowing/forcing you to do the heavy work and I call that being his mommy. You are the fixer, the learner, the thinker and then the teller. He is the childlike man in this situation. You spoon feed him his lessons and then he decides if he should swallow and commit or spit it all back out and be entitled to what he wants. All of this is couched in my own experience however and may not fit your situation. I am not very good at advice yet, still tripping around in all of it too much. I won't be back for a bit but if you want more explanation or situations or just whatever I will answer you later.

CAN HE???

The only reason I asked if you can name them is so you'll be able to tell if he is putting them into practice or not.

The important thing is whether he can name AND DO these things.

Remember that waywards lie. Remember that your husband is still a wayward. If his lips are moving, he's lying. Ignore what he says. Watch what he does.

Incidentally, your list is quite off. #1 has a name. Most of the others on your list are not items on Dr. Harley's list of ten basic concepts.

yeah- I get that it has a name. They all have names. I was quickly summarizing. Its called the policy of undivided attention.

JK i am sorry if i upset MrJK with my post but if you remember you and i have very similar h's and your sitch hits close to home for me.

Not too long ago (a couple of months) i wrote my h a very long letter. In that letter, i started with the fact that nothing i wrote was meant to hurt, blame, or punish him in any way and that i was not a perfect spouse myself. I then wrote out EVERY single thing that he ahd done in our 25 years when i felt he had ignored my feelings or disrespected me (of course i could only remember the big things) and i finished it up basically with that i needed ACTIONS words were no longer enough for me or else i was walking too.

The first day or so he tried to turn it around by "feeling sorry for himself because he was such an a**hole throughout our whole marriage" (i know DJ but that is what it felt like). But then i do not know what happened but he has started making changes to make me feel more protected.

I have also notice that the letter is still in his car, maybe as a reminder, i dunno but i do know that he is for the first time in 25 years SHOWING me he wants to protect our marriage.

Just a thought......

SC-

Im gald to hear that things have improved somewhat in your M. Like me, you have set the bar low and your H has done little to help you heal. I think in alot of ways, youve been stuck in misery because of his lack of inaction and your unwilligness to bail over it ( and believe me, Im not throwing rocks at glass houses. I know Im in a similiar boat)

I do know that something dramatic has shifted. Im not willing to accept less than what I deserve. And I deserve to have a happy committed marriage with a man who doesnt just talk the talk.

And so there you have it folks...

Sorry; I wasn't trying to knock you for getting the name wrong; just encouraging you to go review, and even more importantly to ascertain if your husband has figured out, after four years, even 10% of the list.

Kim, I don't understand. You HAVE talked to him about it for 4 years. The issue is not that you haven't spoken to him; but that he rejects the program.


It leaves you nowhere you WANT to go, you mean. You don't have an easy option. He has already demonstrated that he won't change. He will say what you want to hear but that is as far as it gets..

Yep. It always comes back to him saying the right things but never actually *doing* them.

He has my list. He knows I wont settle and that the car is raised much much higher. Its up to him now and Im not fixing anything for him.

So, Ive just been reading over on Mr JK's thread and Im struck by several things.

1. I know I should feel grateful and encouraged that he is posting. I am.

2. At the same time, I feel all "icky" - As I read Im seeing all the stuff he has done to me for years. 1/2 answers or no answers, glossing over much, revealing virtually nothing of himself and his motives. No self exploration. justification.

3. Is all of this a DJ? Am I wrong? I feel like living with him has got me all crazy. I dont know up from down anymore and I am feeling more hopeless than ever. Does anyone else see this and if so, can you try to explain it to him? I feel like I dont have the words anymore.

Maybe it's best if for right now, you neither one read the other ones thread.

If you really want to give MrJK a chance, you have to give MrJK a chance, i know you have waited a really long time and are tired and weary of holding it all together and probably do not hold out much hope for anything.

However you did come here so i think you really would like for him to change and be the husband you deserve, but it will not happen over night and only you can decide how long you will wait for IMPLEMENTATION of his ACTIONS.

SC-

I think you are right. Im not going to read his thread. If I do, I get tempted to coach him or try to fix him or things for him. Im going to just let this all unfold.

Thanks for the perspective

ITA - Kim stay over here for awhile, okay? Let us work with your H. We're being gentle, promise


And put the car down or you'll hurt yourself. J/K! Just interjecting a little humor!

Oh MB you KILL me.

Kim, it is a GREAT idea for you to stay off of his thread. Let the MBers be the ones to give him the much needed 2x4's. They won't be LBs when they come from them.

Yeah, see? No LBs!



In case you needed a little more levity with that car.

JK,

In some ways this is all so difficult......but......in other ways it is so easy. The light bulb moments are so few and so far.

You are such a wonderful and strong person. When and what you write is so solid. I know what I see and read is why your H is with you as it is simply wonderful.

Yeah, you don't need to DJ your H as unfortunately he will simply hang himself and if you DJ him it becomes an excuse and you then need to be perfect and that isn't human.

Anyways. There are givers and there are takers in life. And both of us are destructive to relationships.

And what is even better is that both of us need the other to get what we want out of life and relationships. Givers that give without caring for themselves and takers that take without giving simply are missing alot out of life and we search out for the others that can balance us out and give us that richness we are looking for.

Accepting 1/2 answers or no answers, glossing over stuff, revealing virtually nothing is really just as much about you as it is him. If you are a giver you accept it and if you are a taker you take it. But, in the end none of you are happy nor content.

And living with him has got you all crazy?

Why blame him? Accept your responsibility. Think about it and do something - don't try to have someone explain it to him and change him. It is you and what you do that will change him and if you have no value to him he will do nothing......and you can't be afraid of that answer. That is the answer you really want to know and you need to go there.

Balance your giver and your taker. Challenge your taker to come out knowing your taker is protecting you and that your strength is giving to protect the other person. See where it leads you.

And last, trust yourself.

Thank you all for your wonderfully insightful posts. They are all so helpful to me. I never wanted to join this "club" but Im awfully grateful to have such wonderful support.

TJD- Your post really has me thinking. I dont really know how to be anything other than a giver, I think. That sounds so magnanimous, doesnt it? In truth, it is most unhealthy. I give to the point of exhaustion, resentment and utter frustration. I give until Im empty.

I dont know if any of you are familiar with the Enneagram personality types. If you are interested, here is a link to an online test that will type you. Enneagram Institute

I am a type 2. Guess what 2's are known as? the giver/helper.

Its a place of growth for me. Ive been trained for so long that other people are far more important than me. They say awareness is the first step so Im grateful for that at least.

I find this so interesting...


This is what I do! Ive wait for Mr JK to learn something, and sit in misery hoping that he will "get it" because then if he does, I can then be happy. What crazy BS! But, how do I do this? Its all very well and good for me to sit here while I type ans say "Aha! TJD is so right - I need to take responsibility for this!!" That IS what I am saying of course. The thing is, what does that mean?? How do I do that? Am I doing it already by setting the bar high?

Ive thought alot about the bar being set low. Man, have I done that. Ive asked for things and when Mr JK would fail to deliver it, I would be so so hurt. I would accept the " Well, I AM going to do it - we just have different timelines" excuse or the "I just forgot" excuse. He is very very convincing. In fact, I think HE even believes it. Ive taught him that I will accept that. That he can throw a bunch of words at me, take a stab at doing what I asked to pacify me and then we limp along.

But, I never feel happy in my M. I never feel fulfilled or intimately connected with him.

I feel horribly lonely most of the time and chronically disappointed.

There is a subtle shift taking place here. I feel SO STRONG. I want my M to succeed. Im rooting for my H but Im also utterly prepared to leave. I havent felt that way before.

This is really bothering me.....

I asked Mr JK last night what it was about the woman at the store that he couldnt keep his eyes off of her....

He responded that she had a really nice body and great legs. This was very hard for me to hear and felt like a punch in the gut for a few reasons

1. The OW had a great body and nice legs. She was my friend, so I know this and my H told me shortly after d day that that was one of the reasons he found her attractive

2. Hard for me to admit, even in an anonymous forum but I do not have a great body and nice legs. Like LG's Flamingo - I too have a weight problem. I need to lose a good 50 pounds. In fact, LG's portrayal of his W over on my H's thread (before I decided to stop reading there) hit home with me in a major major way.

So, here is why this is so confusing. My weight issues arent new. Mr JK met and married me when I was a little heavier than I am now. He has given me mixed signals over the years and even now, I cant really get a bead on what he *really* thinks. He tells me I am beautiful almost every day. That isnt hard for me to believe, because while I am overweight, I know I am one of those really attractive women, like a Queen Latifa thing. I take care of myself, look and dress great every day. Im overweight, but still sexy and pretty.

So, why the mixed signals? My H tells me how beautiful I am, how much he finds me attractive - but he doesnt look at me like he looked at this woman at the store. And I KNOW I dont look like her, or the OW. I *KNOW* I fall short in that area. Mr JK tells me he loves me as I am, yet he clearly covets something that I am not. And It makes me crazy. It makes me feel like he is lying to protect me and his efforts are so misguided because I would rather have him tell the truth. Id rather have him tell me " You know what JK, you are beautiful - I love you but I really need you to work on your X, Y, Z" . If he did this, Id at least feel that he was HONEST. Currently, I feel that he isnt honest. That he says what he thinks I want to hear to protect me. Ironically, it doesnt protect me at all. It makes me feel scared that he says one thing but acts in another way.

Would it hurt? Of course it would. But Id feel alot safer.

Id settle for that right now.

JK,

Its been 4 years!

Yet look at the title of your thread. You don't trust yourself.

He gawked at a women and you are questioning yourself - am I overreacting.

He makes you feel crazy. He spins you and is passive aggressive and you talk about him spinning you and being passive aggressive and try to convince him to stop.

And it is all crap and you know it. Its simple BS.

Trust yourself.

Next time he gawks let him have the women he is gawking at. He wants her he can have her but he can't have you too. Walk out of that store without him. Put the ball in his court and let him decide instead of you trying to decide for him.

TJD

I do not believe it is possible to have a healthy relationship with someone who is PA. I just dont.

If I truly accept that, then Id have to accept that my H is posting here as a way to play me. That he is not recoverable, and Id be far better off without him.

That is a hard thing to swallow and it is why I question myself. At the same time, Im seeing it pretty clearly.

HE doesnt see it though. Even worse, maybe he DOES.

JK, your H isn't being honest with anyone right now, IMO. But this is still early in the repair stage. I think he needs to learn how to be honest.

You met important needs for him. That's why he married you. You still do. But he's like a kid in a candy shop - he likes the lollipop in his hand, but he looks at the rest of the case and wants it all. He needs to learn that the lollipop in his hand is good and is all he needs. To have more would not be good for him.

He lacks boundaries, to use adult terms. He needs to learn those. I think he will.

Bliss-

What a great name, by the way.

My H and I got into a pretty bad fight awhile back. During the course of this fight, I told him I thought he was a fraud. I dont really know how that impacted him but I feel that it is a good assessment. He doesnt let himself be know by ANYONE. Including me. I have no idea anymore if he is a good guy or a bad guy. Im so confused, I feel like I am going to be sick.

I had to stop reading over on his thread because I saw alot of his responses where he reveals nothing and gives 1/2 answers and it just kills me. It makes me feel like giving up - that it is all so hopeless. That even now, when I am at the absolute end - he is still doing it. That he wont change. He will never be open and he will never be honest.

So, I stopped reading there.

You know, I have this terrible sinking fear that I cant shake. I fear that I am married to a man who hasnt been honest about anything. I fear that there is much much more for me to find out about his activities than I know.

I tell him that he would be doing me a supreme kindness if he came clean. He swears he has. SWEARS it. Yet, I cant get this feeling out of my gut.

I keep thinking back to when I first met my H. We worked together. Another woman I worked with told me not to go near him, that he was a "predator". I was SHOCKED to hear this. In fact, he and I laughed over it. A PREDATOR??? WTH! How could she have gotten it so so wrong.

I cant get that conversation out of my head.

Thought I would share with everyone Dr Harleys response to my post



Does this really work? Doesnt it really just practice avoidance and never really get to the bottom of the issue?

MJK and I are coaching w Kimberly. Kimberly relayed to Dr H that we ( MJK and I ) are going to start working together again. MJK is a brilliant developer. I needed to hire a really talented developer so my company hired him. Ive sort of been on the fence about that, but Dr H thinks it is a great idea. We would both work virtual and share an office ( which we do from time to time now) In some ways, this is a great thing. I have a ton of respect for MJK's professional knowledge and ability and we do have a great realtionship and get on very well as long as we dont scratch the surface.

Dr H thinks this will be a good thing for us but Im scared...

Ive thought about this a bit and I *think* what Dr H is saying is, it doesnt really matter what the motivations are, that IF you follow the program, there will never be issues.

I dont think that is realistic. Not the following the program part, but the looking at the WHY you do things. The self examination. How do you develop new habits if you dont even know you HAVE the habit or WHY you have them?

Take myself, for example. I have a habit of fixing people. Of helping to the point of annoyance. I do this in order to be liked, because I think I am worth very little to people and in order to be liked, I must ingratiate myself with others. Because I understand this about myself ( and it is only very very recently that Ive come to this realization) there has been a DRAMATIC shift in me. Im still figuring it all out and how the new me will be.

If I hadnt had this big AHA, spent time in self exporation - I would have had this helper habit forever.

To my complete detriment.

I don't know if there's a need to spend a lot of time navel gazing. I don't think it really matters why a person does something. I think the outcome is the important thing. That's why I don't think it matters why MJK looks at women - the point is that he has a habit of doing so and needs to break it. I'd suggest it to him even if he were single. For most women, staring men are immediately placed in the 'creep' category. That's why I suggested you help 'coach' him in appropriate navigation around women. The idea is to get him out of the habit he's picked up.

Being O&H with each other about this habit (ie how it affects you) is following the program.

that is EXACTLY what he is saying........


Actually the "WHY" MJK looks/gawks/ ogles other women has been answered. He has a Physical Attractiveness as a high EN. Probably #1or #2. Throw in the way men are wired anyway and them being visually stimulated, well, it answers the "why" quite clearly.

NOW, in order to get this need met, yes, you have to do your part in meeting this need for him. From what you BOTH write, it seems you do DO this. Just keep it up....

And Mr. JK needs to do HIS part in over-coming this habit. He can't change what his EN's are, but he needs to create boundaries so that the only female meeting this need is YOU.

Hope this helps hon......I really feel for you. My heart went out to when you wrote about your weight issues and legs. I have horrible legs....throw in being only 5'3" and the fact that I will NEVER have long pretty model legs, well you know. However, there are other parts of me that I love, and so does my H. I suspect MJK is the same way......use what do have to YOUR advantage and accept the parts that you can't change. When a women loves herself and exudes that self-confidence, she becomes irresistible.......


Not2fun

Bliss

I intellectually see how this makes sense and would work, but I have a hard time seeing how this is growth in any way.

Its like an alcoholic just quitting drinking. They change the habit, sure. But *something else* takes the place of the obsession because the problem that caused the alcoholism never is fixed.

Trust me, Im all for following the program and for results. I WANT a happy marriage, I just dont want a happy marriage on the surface.

This scares me. A lot. Because when we have done the EN questionnaire, Phys Attractiveness doesn't come up as an EN at all for MJK. So, it makes for some confusion for me. I dont know if this doesnt come up because he *finds* me physically attractive already so it doesnt register as a need or something else. All I know is, every single day of my life - I feel like he finds me lacking.


Yeah. Working on that. I used to have that. I lost it a long time ago.

Thanks so much for the post!

Update

MJK and I went to grab a quick dinner. MJK was distant and unkind to me. I asked him what was up, he said that he felt he had to focus on looking straight ahead and not at any women. I said "I don't buy it, you were like thus before we left home" He replied he was focusing on not being "vague".

I told him his behavior was hurting me and that I wasn't going to stay in it. That he was acting like someone who was mad that they "had" to behave a certain way. I got up and left the restaurant. He texted me to tell me that I was "'making things worse"

This does not sound to me like the behavior of a man who is repentant and wants to win back his wife. This is passive aggressive and mean.

JK
I am taking a stab in the dark here but I get this sense (not sure why) that your husband is actually afraid. All this passive aggressive behavior strikes me as a cover up for something else. Passive aggressive strikes me as a fear of being hurt. I have seen this in a few guys I associated with and it was also blended with a level of control. As I got to know this fellow a little more I realized he was hiding behind this mask. He was afraid of being hurt. But he covered it well with this aggressive, controlling front.

Is it possible your H is insecure and the behavior you are experiencing is as a result of him being triggered by something? Has something changed lately that would cause him to act this way? I suspect his pride is bruised as well as he has been called on the accountability carpet. I also suspect he may be embarrassed about being wrong. And he may not know how to act. Mentally he may have retreated into his man cave and is licking his wounds hoping everything will magically return to more familiar territory. He is probably looking for some sympathy from you so he can save face.

"mommy kiss the boo boo better and tell me it will all be OK"

I may be wrong but it strikes me that there is more at play here than we are aware of on this forum.

Blessings
BCBoy

JK - I don't know if this is at all applicable to your situation, but I'll offer my experience:

I was abysmal at self-reflection. Absolutely horrendous. It's something I had to - and still have to - work very hard on, and mentally tell myself to stop and think. Reflect. Analyze what I'm feeling and why. If I don't do this, it's far too easy to slip into old habits of just going along, responding superficially, etc.

It sounds like MJK has a lot going on under whatever exterior he is presenting. Is it possible he's not aware of what all is there? Would he be willing to sit down and maybe journal or reflect somehow, 10 minutes or more, each day?

The trick to this is it will require a lot from you. Control, support, a way to hear and discuss what he discovers without LBing. He needs to feel safe with you. (Ironic, I know.)

I could be way off base. Just wanted to throw it out there.

BCB

I think you are right. He IS afraid. Of what? I don't know. He isn't really acting like he is afraid of losing his M.

Much of what you say is accurate , though. From my perspective anyway. I suspect MJK has gone through much of his life feeling invisible and powerless.

Can you be more specific when you say more is going on that what you see in this forum? I'm curious as to what you suspect

as far as anything changing I would say he know I'm on the verge of leaving. I'm not sure if that would affect him much though. Frankly he doesn't appear to care. He SAYS he cares but he doesn't act like it.

Don't try to fix him or figure out if something is wrong with him.

You want to be married to him if the marriage is good for him and you.

And if it isn't and he tries to convince you that you are controlling him by asking him to not hurt you leave the abusive situation.

He can determine in any way how to act and behave that is good for him AND not hurt you. It is an AND decision that needs to be made not an EITHER/OR.

You are not controlling him. You are asking him to not hurt you. He can figure out how to do that with a little thought, creativity, and care.

I am not an expert, I am not a psychologist, but my gut tells me that he needs you far more than you realize. I believe he is annoyed that with himself that he does need you to the degree he does because that means he is vulnerable, and vulnerability leaves you exposed to being hurt. I have a sense that he gets triggered by a series of events that leaves him feeling insecure, and I suspect when he feels insecure he will anesthetize himself by becoming more controlling, and distant (or give the appearance of not needing anyone or anything).

I sense he has this crusty exterior, and probably needs you to help him learn to trust and be in a safe enough place that he can be vulnerable.

From your last post I am wondering if he is nearing panic that you might leave. I really don't think he knows how to behave or act. Many of us men have grown up with the concept that men have to be "real men" John Wayne, James Bond, The Green Barets. Women will swoon in our presence because we are so tough and manly. Nothing can shake us, we are independent and don't let anything affect us. So what happens when we find out this is not really what a woman wants. How do you learn and where do you go to learn how to act. Depending on how you are raised you may not know what to do. Nobody is buying the image or the act any more. So there you are standing naked on the stage, people are laughing and pointing, and you don't know what to do.

If a man did not have a good role model to teach you how to treat a woman it can be very frightening. It can be alarming for a guy when you find out that the image you have spent so much of your life developing is not what is acceptable or desired. What do you do when you have climbed the ladder of success to find it leaning against the wrong building?

So what was the motivation for the affair? Was it an attempt to show himself and the world something? What void was he trying to fill? What would drive a person to participate in a behavior that puts your marriage relationship at risk?

Would it surprise you to find out you might be the stronger person in your marriage? Would you be surprised to learn that your husband may need more guidance and reassurance than you first believed? Is it possible that you assume your husband knows what to do? He may need more coaching than you realize. However you have expectations and you are feeling bruised from the events you have had to face in life. You are both wanting nurture, and the place we look for nurture is from our spouse. When it is not there we feel disappointed.

Perhaps a change of perspective may help you. It may be possible your husband is a cold-hearted insensitive jerk. I don't get that sense. I sense he is lost. And he is angry and scared that he is lost. Being a man he is supposed to know what to do to fix this, but I don't think he knows what to do to make it all better. I think he is afraid and the distance you experience from him is some kind of defense mechanism that is a reflex.

Do you both have the energy and the desire to persist over the next 2 to 5 years to build a new and better marriage? Only you can answer that.

I hope that helps, it is only my opinion based on the tread of information I got here and my gut reaction to some of the evidence.

May God Bless you and your family

BCBoy

I agree 100%.

JK,

All this poking around in MJK's head trying to psychoanalyze him is a DJ.

Focus on your stuff. Draw your boundaries and enforce them....like you did tonight at dinner.

His response makes me so angry for you. You've taken care of him for four years and he feels entitled to have a King Baby Tantrum and take shots at you?

If the assessment is correct that he is acting out of fear? What does that say about any potential recovery for you?

It's not good.

He needs a therapist right now, not us trying to figure out how to get him to grow up right now.

I would suggest something counter-intuitive to the rescuing people are trying to lay on you right now.

A Marriage-Builder Style Plan B would include a road map home. It would lead him through the land of therapy so that he takes responsibility for his insecurities so that he stops hurting you. But it leaves the choice up to him rather than for you to continue tolerating his intentional infliction of emotional harm.

He knows how to say "yes sir" to Steve H and staff, but then takes it out on you.

So you need to get out of the way and stop the abuse.

Plan B would need to include a time line and safety measures in the event that you ever attempt reconciliation again and he lapses back into passive-aggressive behavior, he gets to leave immediately and earn his way back in, if you care to endure insufferable behavior ever again.

At some point, he needs to get the message that your patience has an end. You've trained him for 4 years that you will accept mediocrity, hence the king-baby reaction now that you are growing a pair. He's trying to emotionally abuse you back into tolerance again.

JK, when you first talked about filing for separation, this is what I saw too, more of a MB Plan B, with a plan given to the way home.
A way to protect your own LB.
Only you can decide if and when you need to do this.

This is kind of an odd analogy (it's early in the am, lol) but I think of it like this .....
you are standing on the edge of a cliff,
beside someone who is known to have seizures,
there is no warning when they will have one of these episodes,
it just happens,
and this person refuses to take their meds to control this condition,
when the help is right there in front of them for the taking.


It's up to him, he needs to decide that the effort to change his thinking is worth more than not fixing it.

Ms V


Id say this is a given. MFK would say that too. He simply isnt in touch with what he is feeling. Awhile back, I asked him to wrtite down the physical feelings he was having in a day whenever he felt some unidentifiable emotion. I think that lasted for maybe an hour? two? Not very long anyway. There didnt seem to be much effort put forth.

Im so incredibly weary. Ive spend years and years trying to get into his head, to help him, to explain. I think it doesnt matter. I havent been able to help him, Im not going to be able to help him and I need to focus on ME.

TJD, M Mallow

You both are right. What I wouldnt have given for BC's post a month ago. SO insightful. So accurate in many ways. Im past that now. It doesnt matter what MJK is thinking, or why, or what has motivated him. It only matters that I cant tolerate certain things. There are new rules, a higher bar. It is ABOUT ME. I dont think, in my entire life, I have EVER made anything about me. Certainly, since Ive been with MJK, its always been about him. What HE was thinking. What HE was feeling. How it would affect HIM.

Yeah. Im over that. Im just beat.

BC-

Your post was awesome and probably accurate. I cant speculate anymore what MJK thinks or feels. Thats all up to him.

KA, Vitt

Im there. Im ready. I dont know what else to do to preserve myself and my sanity.


My MB friends never fail to disappoint me! So many wonderful and insightful posts.

I thank you all.....

I would suggest a consult with Steve H for yourself - how to establish your own personal Plan B - what that looks and feels like, and how to develop a Plan B letter that gives him the way back, if he chooses to take it.

I would also look to learn as much as possible about distinctions of personal responsibility. You are not the cause of his fears and insecurities, nor do you have the cure. Therefore, you shouldn't be compensating now four years later so that he doesn't feel afraid. That's a mother's job - because a mother also gets the blessing of authority and instruction to train and teach. This is not a job for a wife. Since Mr. JK is a grown man, he needs to find this instruction and support for himself. It is not reasonable that he should expect his wife to compensate - he has drained and depleted you.

So when are you going to call Steve?

KA-

Im trying to figure all of this out as I go along. A call with Steve is great idea. Im a big fan of his. When MJK and I counseled regularly with him, I was in much better shape emotionally than I am in now.

JK
I would like to encourage you. Please do not make any hasty decisions. If you are beat, run down tired then you need to take a break and recuperate. A marriage especially one that is off the rails takes energy and time. So right now you don't have the energy and the appeal to escape is appealing. Remember this is a marriage building site, and I am pro marriage, so now you have my bias out in the open.

Marriage is not always easy, that is why we stand and make promises before God and our community. And the community makes a commitment to us to help sustain us through the challenging times. Right now your community is here online, there is a lot of experience and encouragement for you to draw from. You are doing the right thing by seeking counseling from the experts.

For many the anguish and emotion of separation and divorce can be far greater than rebuilding a marriage. From what I can tell from your posts, right now you need to recharge your batteries. There is a lot at stake here. You have a child together, and that is not insignificant. He is impacted by what is happening to the two of you as well. He will be watching and learning how adults resolve problems.

From what I can see your marriage is recoverable. Yes you will have some trials to face. However I sense your husband got the memo, that it is time to wake up and smell the coffee.

I consider myself a follower of Christ and one of the lessons I have learned in my time on the planet is that when I can no longer bear the burdens of this world, I have access to the One who can bear them. If you are so inclined I would encourage you to pray, for yourself, for strength and wisdom. For your husband and your child.

May God in His mercy bless you and sustain you.

BCBoy

BCb

Thank you.

To clarify. My H has gotten the memo many many times. He has put forth various amounts of effort many many times.

This time will likely be like all the rest.....

We do not have children together. I have 2 children from a previous M. My children's Dad passed away when they were very young and MJK has not really stepped up into the whole "Dad" role very well.

My children ( and his grown child from a previous M ) often express the thought and frustration that MJK is just a "spectator" in all their lives. He is there on the sidelines and doesnt really participate much. Im the glue. The one that keeps it all going. MJK just shows up.

It hurts me to type this but Im not all that sure just how upset my son would be if MJK and I seperated. Recently, he was complaining that MJK doesnt interact with him much, doesnt even really appear to love him. That he felt MJK did the minimum he had to do...

Sound familiar?

I found myself cringing today. MJK knows how on the fence I am. I think he can sense that this time, its different.

He was talking to my son about how they should buy dirt bikes and go riding together. My son was all excited. Dirt bikes!!! Riding alongside a father figure! What fun..... My son said "thats GREAT! we can do that together and maybe bond. You know - do some father and son stuff..."

Later, my son commented that he knew MJK would never follow through.

How bloody sad is that.

I think MJK has a hard time with intimacy of any type. I don't think it's just conversation or following through. He just has a hard time with "bonding" period.

I wonder - were either of MJK's parents alcoholic or having addiction issues when he was growing up?

I disagree this is an emotional need. Dr Harley calls this a LOVEBUSTER, ie, independent behavior.

KA

no addiction issues but MASSIVELY dysfunctional. A father who was distant. Selfish. Big PA behaviors. He took off when MJK was 17 for OW. Didn't see MJK for years. They have virtually no relationship. I can't over state how cold

and nasty MJK s dad is.

MJK's mom was very expressive emotionally but huge temper. I think a bit of a drinker when her kids were little. Loved her sons madly but overwhelming

And you are right MJK isn't emotionally present with anyone . He us with me more than most but not really. I feel bad for him sometimes. He reminds me of the poor kid with his nose pressed to the glass of where he wishes he lived. But... I don't feel bad enough to drown

Interesting - so addiction behaviors - unpredictable and unsafe.

This is the root of MJK's distance and difficulty with conversation and follow through - with you and the kids.

It's not that he's deliberately trying to neglect you or bait you, or even be intentionally passive aggressive.

Most people who are balanced, are able to move from being the hero, to the clown, to withdrawn, to troublemaker at the extremities of stress. But adults who survived dysfunctional homes with addictive abusive patterns tend to get stuck in one of the four roles.

For me, I was the "lost child" - the one who never caused any trouble, who became invisible at the first sign of abuse or drunkenness, and my coping behaviors with my father's addiction was to compensate so that he wouldn't see me because if he saw me he'd be angry.

For my husband, whose parents were not addicts, but his father was a child of addicts and his mother had some attachment issues caused by survivor guilt (she was the only child who lived past either birth or childhood - one sibling lasted long enough to have a few children, but died to suicide. Kasey was the scapegoat and has a hard time having enough confidence to do anything right to be reliable, especially during crunch time.

My oldest brother was the superhero - the ones my parents treated as a partner to carry the family and could do no wrong.

My little sister was the entertainer - the dancer who always pulled certain antics.

We all compensated for what was lacking in our family - emotional safety.

If this hits a nerve for you or your husband, some recommended reading would include a study on what it means to survive such a childhood, and how to become balanced.

Janet Woititz, a leading psychologist/author who has studied and treated adult children, describes 13 characteristics of ACOA:


JK - you may find yourself in this too as you've been way unbalanced in tolerating bad behavior.

The best book I read that focused on self-protection and recognizing where I'm a safe person for my child and my husband, and how to feel safe around others is called "SAFE PEOPLE" by Cloud and Townsend - the same guys who wrote "Boundaries", which I have recommended here before.

There are underlying currents in your husband that he has to focus on before he can approach your marriage from a healthy place. This is the "therapy" I recommended in a previous post.

Hi JK,

And to start with I disagree heavily with not2fun. You cannot push buttons on the EN list to try to figure out the total person and the relationship. Please ignore that and listen to excellent advice from TCD and BCboy and others here. Okay.

The only reasons I wanted to post to you are 1) I apologize for being presumptuous in trying to declare that your H being pa has some mental or emotional problem, and 2) to simply reassure you of my concern.

Look JK, I was sort of a crude bull in the china shop guy during our first ten years of marriage. My W had the stomach to pont these and I am happy to say that I had the stomach to change myself, my behavior.

Ya know what Kim, my W is alot older now. We are now in our 60s. she still has great legs tho. She has sort of a stomach now and I definitely know that because when I take her shopping for clothes I have to stand outside of the fitting room and comment on how the clothes she is trying on fit her. She always asks me do my boobs show and does my stomach show. I am honest with her and I love to go shopping with her even tho it takes like 3 hours/.

Anyway Kim your husband can learn this if he is willing. Ya know, standing outside a womens fitting room in a dept. store you can see lots of women shopping. Do I look, honestly yes. Do I stare honestly No because then I get busy to see if there are anymore tops that would look good on my wife and honest to god. She is never able to decide if she needs small or medium so I am always bringing her clothes.

Point is honestly, you are getting a raw deal period. Going to a restaurant and acting like you said he did, honestly Kim as a male I would feel ashamed that I acted that way. No one has a right to deplete another's energy and love as much as he seems to have.

You cannot change him obviously, you can Help him change tho and guide him thru the necessary changes If he is willing.

Char is manic depressive and we have lived thru this together for now 37 ofr our 43 years together. Did I need to change, yes. I learned about the illness by reading about it and inquiring, and i tried to educated members of our families about it, but she was also willing to learn to in how her illness affected not only her but us. And she did that.

Oh wow JK, I am and advocate of staying in the foxhole untill the last charge, but I would have to agree with others here and advise you to go to a secure Plan B to preserve you as a person and as a mom. This will be hard on him, but again Kim you cannot change the man you love, he has to change because he loves you.

Wow., need to say the rosary tonight (am being honest but probably a little too emotional her) , but I am now going to include your interests.

Tom

JK,

I realize that I forgot to post rest of my thought when I was commenting on the physical. Meant to say yes she has still great legs, but she has a hard time walking now, she has gained weight and that is one problem with her ankles now in terms of walking. She has her same great eyes tho same as she always has had and when I look at her I have this feeling she is still accepting me and I have thsi feeling that if she didn't accept me maybe no one else would.

Tom

KA

I just ordered the book you recommend - as well as the Boundaries book. I look forward to reading them.

Ive long felt that the maritial recovery has hit an impass and cant go any further. The rest of the stuff has to do w MJK and of course, my own work on me.

Im not optimistic..

Tom

Thank you for your kind words and thoughts.

I have to tell you, I am up and down. What I mean to say is, Sometimes Im sure that MJK does things deliberately and other itmes Im not. He seems to be pretty convincing that he behavior is innocent. Then again, he *always* sees himself as the innocent and reasonable one.

In fact, he did this over the ogling the woman incident. He was just shopping, you see....and then along came this woman who happened to pop into his line of vision...

Thats how he originally couched it and it makes me feel crazy. He is so reasonable. Surely, I must have misunderstood.

Im on to it now though. I see what he does and I have to tell you , I am getting more discouraged by the day.

Im going to call Steve H about coming up with plan B.

Which makes me so so sad.

I know you know that this doesn't even matter. What should matter to him is that it hurts you. The whole dynamic may change if one, you don't let him convince you or cause you to question yourself on this stuff and two, he changed his focus to addressing that he hurt you instead of his defensiveness in protecting himself by saying it is innocent. It is a shift for both of you.


I wish you could see the opportunity here instead of being discouraged. If you are truly on to it now then you can change. When you change he will need to react to your change - you won't continue to let him hurt you. You won't let the same stuff keep happening and you will alert him to it and he won't get rewarded for doing the same stuff. He will try to argue and fight with you but you can't accept him hurting you.

How often do you or have you communicated with Kimberly or the Harley's?

I think that might have happened this morning and last night. I think MJK is realizing that it doesnt matter if he thinks he is right, I am right - the cat is right.

That is the behavior is hurtful- it must be changed. I was pretty shocked that he seemed to have gotten that.

Im interested to see how the week goes...

KA-

At the risk of a DJ, Id like to address this...


I once asked Dr H if he thought my H was a sociopath, because he seemed to always go out of his way to give the answer he thought I wanted to hear. Like, he had no idea how to act, so he was going to "fake" his way through it. Many times, MJK doesnt seem genuine to me. Its like he watches how other people act and then does that.

Dr H assured me my H is NOT a sociopath ( and I feel horrible thinking that or even typing it here...) but that he had a very low emotional threshold. He asked about the FOO thing, too. If there was addiction/alcoholism.

I think you are on to something big.

I am so thankful for your guidance.

JK

Just an Update-

Relatively un eventful weekend. MJK tried hard to meet EN, avoid LB's.

I dont really know how I feel. Im confused. I can see the shift in MJK but I dont trust it. I dont believe that it will last. There is a big part of me that thinks he is doing this NOW but as soon as the coast is clear, he will go back to old habits.

Im also deeply disturbed about the polygraph thing. MJK searched out and found a person who does this, emailed him back and forth a few times ( I was copied in on the correspondence). The last email to this guy was this past Thursday. I feel uneasy. If it were me, and I had nothing to hide, I would be all over it. I would have made a date already because Id want to prove my innocence. It very much feels to me that MJK made a big show of this and is now waffling.

This is a pretty standard pattern. Lots of promises no action.

I have an awful feeling in my gut that there is a great deal to hide and MJK will keep stalling on this until he has no choice.

Ive told him that he gets once chance to come clean. That if he does it before ( and not at the 11th hour) that I would hear him out. If he doesnt - and then takes poly and fails, I will immediately file.

I dont feel good about this at ALL

JK -

This is where you need to keep that bar high. Ideally, yes, MJK would be all over this and take ownership and have it done yesterday. However, (and I have no idea why, could be because there's more there, could be because of old habits, him using what slack is available, etc.), it is up to you to set that bar and make sure he clears it.

If he is not clearing it, communicate that to him in no uncertain terms and see if that doesn't light a fire under his fanny.

Given what he has mentioned on his thread, the original story about the ogling incident, and Dr. H's "low emotional threshold" comment, I am inclined to identify some of my own problem areas in him. Is he a people pleaser? Does he communicate w/o much substance - no clear understanding of his emotions, motivations? I think you confirmed this idea a bit before, so it looks like you know what you're up against if this is the case.

Mrs Vanilla

I can only tell you my perceptions - his opinions might be ( and probably are ) vastly different from mine.

I would agree that he is a people pleaser. He has a big need for approval and he doesnt seem to handle things well if I am angry at him or disapprove of him in any way. However, at the same time - he seems not to care about how his actions affect people. In fact - the often says he *doesdnt care* So, that is a mystery to me.

He admittedly does not communicate with much substance - he is very vague. His natural style of communication is to offer as little information as possible and I feel like I constantly have to drag information out of him.

Additionally, he would also admit that he generally has no idea of how he is feeling. If there is any kind of conflict, he becomes completely emotionless and very logical. He has told me the emotions dont "hit" for him until hours or days later.

I HAVE communicated to him in no uncertain terms. I am not his Mom and I dont want to check up on him or manage everything for him. Ive done that already at great personal expense. He knows where the bar is and what he has to do.

This may be blatantly obvious, and you probably already know it, but I just wanted to point out that you have a STRONG emotional need for Family Commitment, so be sure that that is included in your list of your top 5 emotional needs.

SINCE I believe you should decide that following the Marriage Builders program is a condition of you even staying with MisterJK at all, it sounds to me like finding a way to meet your emotional need for Family Commitment is going to have to be a part of that recovery plan. He's not doing that, now ... I'll wager he's got a weak attempt going at meeting maybe your top 2 or 3 emotional needs. You need a strong attempt going at meeting the top 5. Otherwise, this is not worth recovering.

Latest response from Dr H


This is significant. Last night, MJK said he could see that he has a pattern of putting in the absolute minimum of effort it takes with virtually everything. He said he could see how he had done that with us as well. That he realized he has put in minimum effort.

So, it would follow that he wouldnt think he had to change anything - change is HARD. It requires ALOT of effort.

Im not sure where this leaves us....

This is pretty typical for men in general, no?


This is also not uncommon for many men.

You mentioned earlier that Dr. Harley said your H has a very low emotional threshold. I'd never heard that term before. So I looked it up. From what I read, it means people feel negative emotions quicker than other people.

But, from what you've said and he has said, it doesn't seem to describe MJK.

This ties in perfectly with my previous post. Ive always accepted whatever effort he put forth and was good with it. I think this has a lot to do with my own stuff. My FOO was not exactly wonderful. Some really dirty scary stuff there. I was taught at a young age that I was not important nor worth very much.

I then went on to a horribly abusive marriage w former H. Just awful.

The truth is, I have never really known what it is like for someone to be really good to me. "Good enough" which is what Ive gotten from MJK all these years seemed alot better than what I had always had.

Not anymore. Im flipping great. Im smart, successful, attractive, funny, loyal, kind and a regular flosser!

I deserve alot more than "good enough"

It does and it doesnt. I think anger is an emotional that MJK CAN tap into pretty quickly. In fact- he seems to spend alot of time surpressing anger. I know he has talked about how he has worked really hard to learn to surpress his anger because he found it be be scary and almost out of control.

Again- I cant speak for him - but I think MJK is very controlled. What I sometimes see is someone putting out a false perception on how he feels or what he thinks because he feels the truth of what he feels is scary or seems wrong to him.

I find myself typing all of these things and wondering why everything always comes back to MJK. I have spent so much of my life trying to figure him out and change ME .

I think Im tired of doing this....

And denying it.

Anger is usually one of the few emotions men will express.



I've heard Justlearning here (great poster..a retired Marine and retired engineer) say that most men have alot of anger...fierceness inside of them that most women would be shocked at. But, that it is NORMAL. My H and other men I've known have said similar things. The trick is learning how to channel the anger, not deny/supress it.

But, our culture and sometimes mothers work to supress that fierceness in young boys.

His denying/supressing his anger would explain why you thought he was PA. First he denies he's angry, and then his anger "leaks" out of him. You call him on his anger and he denies he is feeling it, which then causes him to deny his leaks/bad behavior.

But fundamentally - isnt that exactly the definition of a passive approach to a secret aggressive feeling??

Yes, I guess so. I just hate to label anyone w/ a condition. I think it tends to put them into a I can't change belief/mode...and us into the he'll never change belief/mode.

I think the way you handled dinner the other night was exactly right. You can't change him, but you can change what you are willing to put up w/.

Hold firm on that lie detector test. And definitely talk to Dr. Harley about plan Bing him.

Marsh-

I dont want to label anyone either and in fact, MJK has expressed some resentment over being labeled as such. I dont blame him.

I dont see it as a label or even a condition, though. I see it as a behavior or a habit.

For instance - overeating. It is a habit. It has an emotional component to it of course but I would surely be resentful if someone called ME a lazy pig. So, Im trying to avoid the PA label and talk about behaviors.

Maybe that will help

I always thought PA people KNEW they were angry and purposely chose to act out in sneaky aggressive ways.

That's how I see it too.

For MJK, it starts w/ the belief that there is something wrong w/ feeling anger.

If he can change that belief, he's on the road to changing his behavior.

Marsh


I thought that too. In fact, I still think that. That is one of the reasons why I think that MJK exhibits some PA type HABITS but I am reluctant to label him or anyone.

Do I think MJK does these things or purpose? I think he has in the past and he knows it. Do I think he does that now? I dont think so but honestly, Ive been wrong about him in the past so I dont really trust myself and my judgement.

And one more thing. I think MJK has a habit of not being honest because he is scared. I think he has a feeling alot of
I dont think MJK does this out of malicious intent

No doubt, you've probably been trying to figure him out for years.
That is his job, identify the problem and work towards fixing it.
Seems like he is working on the identifying part, the first part of this.
It's his task to do what you require, if he chooses.
Remember, we can't fix them, we can however influence their desire to fix, and we can give them a plan how this can be achieved.

What you can do, is let him know what it is that lovebusts you, and what actions meet your EN's.
Your other job, how I see it, is to decide how to stay in a healthy state of mind and protect your LB, while your H is working through this process.

Perhaps with the support of this board, you can remain in a more healthy state. Healthy seems like the wrong word, since there is nothing
healthy about this, but I hope you know what I mean.

Had you not been feeling like this for 4 yrs., I don't think that your LB would be so depleted.
It may not have been so much that your EN's have not been filled as they should, it's been the LB's that have taken more of a toll. (actions that have made
you question his sincerity about R)

Living on the edge like you have, has not allowed for a huge amount of healing and has only contributed to the PSTD that we already have from
the initial blow of d-day.

Like many WS's, he doesn't get the true impact of his actions, IMO.
I hope he stays posting, and is willing to learn.

Man, is that true. Only a BS can understand what a d-day is like. I truly believe that a WS might *think* they know but they cant truly understand the devastation caused and how hard it is to stay the course.

One thing I struggle with - I feel MJK should be flooding the heck out of me right now, in regard to meeting EN's. Its not happening. I mean, it *is* happening in that he is doing some things but I dont feel flooded.

Thanks for all your help, Vitt.

A stab in the dark here. But you said MJK may feel he is "in trouble" a lot. If he is feeling insecure and I sense he is he will withhold as he is scared to risk.

Secondly he may not know what to do to be pleasing or acceptable in your eyes right now. I think his eyes are being opened, he has many years of habits to overcome. He may be willing to paddle hard but he many not know in what direction.

It may be helpful to him to throw him some clues, like "You know what I need right now is ______"
" What would score big points with me right now is _______"

It may be hard to believe for you as you sound very aware, but many of us guys really do need your help. In many cases we may marry someone to fill in a gap we have in our own lives. My Grandmother had this one figured out, she knew where my Grandfather was lacking and she acknowledged it and with much grace and kindness filled in the gaps. Why? Because he filled in the gaps in areas she was not 100% in. On the outside it did not always look smooth, but they made it work. She knew he would always be there and despite his deficiencies he would try the best he knew how.

Sometimes I wonder if we need to view things from a different lens. To tell the spouse what we do want instead of what we don't want. As a man who has developed habits and a rhythm to life, it is not always easy to change. With grace, mercy, and encouragement we often can and will.

I recognize you have set the bar higher than you have previously. And I hear you are tired, and this will affect your tolerance. You also have reason to be suspicious due to the A. You are also questioning if he is being truthful. You have many doubts right now about you continuing to risk your emotions in this relationship.

Perhaps before you go any further you need a plan. Write the plan down. It sounds like you have some foundational issues, like trust to address. Get those issues dealt with. The polygraph sounds like a major hurdle. Make that priority one and let MJK know it is a hurdle that needs to be addressed by a certain date. Share the issues you need addressed and when you need them addressed by. You are negotiating a new relational contract. Know what the non negotiables are (fidelity etc.) and where there is room for flexibility. Lay your foundation. A wise man builds his house upon the Rock. A foolish man builds upon the sand.

Blessings
BCBoy

BC

Thank you for your posts. You are a wise old soul ( And Im not calling you old. Really Im not.... promise!)


Funny you should say this. I already feel like I REbuilt my house w MJK on sand. I even said as much this weekend.

The thing is, I was pretty explicit post d day that I could only go through this horrific pain IF the result was an incredible marriage. So, I thought - once again - that we were building on bed rock. I thought once again, that MJK was his own keeper and would keep me safe. After the events of the past few weeks, I see that is not really true. I dont know, BC. Maybe MJK and I have a different view on truth. He feels that he is being honest if he isnt lying. But, thats not being honest to me. That is withholding information and is it a lie? You betcha.

As far as a plan? Isnt that the MB emotional needs questionaire. Funny thing, that. We both did this a few months back. I have his right her eon my desk. I look at it from time to time. I am willing to bet that MJK doesnt even know where mine IS.

So, if you give someone a plan, and they ignore the plan - what does THAT say??

If he is lying intentionally that is different than if he is withholding because he is afraid of the reaction.

IF you give someone a map and they don't know where they are on the map, or if you don't know how to read the map, or understand a compass you need someone to help you get oriented. Your H may be lost. He has some work to do on himself so he has the tools to participate in a marriage. He may be overwhelmed trying to make it all work.

You are ticked off and wanting results now. You have been patient and time is running out in your mind. Do you think you can get your husband to commit to changing and proving to you he is serious. If you were to describe to him what success would look like can you do that to help him get a direction?

You need to be convinced he is telling the truth and he is wanting to tell the truth. You need this to develop a foundation of trust. Without trust you are sunk. So part of the plan is
1) Radical honesty - and that includes coaching and a safe environment to be honest.
2) Implementing the POLICY of Joint Agreement - That is the antidote for passive aggressiveness as both parties have to enthusiastically agree.
Part of your plan may be any deviation from the plan is a show stopper for you. Your H may be the type that needs this clearly laid out and in writing. It may even be like a contract between the two of you. After all a contract is an agreement with very clear terms and conditions along with the consequences of not following the contract.

Changing is difficult because we develop habitual ruts. It takes a lot of effort to get out of those ruts. Can you help your husband see what you need in your communication for him to provide you with the truth so you are convinced it is the truth? I believe he has been vague as a defense, possibly trying to avoid accountability and being blamed, or covering up that he may not have thought it through. Being evasive has provided a payoff for him in the past. You are now saying "no more".

Now he may not know what to do, as he wants to maintain face, or respect. Right now he likely feels he is under attack. What he has done to cope, avoid etc.... is being dismantled.

If you are now feeling contempt for your husband this will be a key issue that needs to be addressed. This may be the wall he cannot scale, because no matter what he does he will fail if you are feeling contempt.

It is not all going to get better in the short term as it takes time to overcome 50 years of bad habits. How about breaking it down into small chunks and develop a road map so you can both see some progress. If I recall correctly it takes 2 to 5 years to recover a marriage and that is if you are following and both parties have bought into the MB plan.

Are both of you willing to put in the time and effort?

Blessings
BCBoy

How about you move out of the construction zone of bedrock vs. sand and move into the kitchen for a sec? You're peeling an onion right now. You've got a few layers of waste to scrape into the disposal. Then you're left with what you can actually work with.

BC/ Bliss

OK. If I heard you correctly, you seem to both be saying to be patient. To give him time to undo habits and behaviors that he has had for all of his life.

Did I get that right?

There is a part of me that wants to say "OK. Thats reasonable. After all, I am a very reasonable person".

HOWEVER.

Dont you just hate howevers?

However...... I feel like he HAD a chance to do this already. It was called the last 4 years of recovery. Thats what I thought we were doing. I didnt know that what it was really called is "MJK has an affair, and then coasts and does as little as possible to recover his M to JK for four years all the while telling JK that all is well". And NOW he is going to step up?? Surely you can see the "yeah, right" in there?

You know, in some ways I suppose it is a good thing that Im discovering that maybe MJK hasnt stepped up. Because if he HAD and this had the best we had, We'd be sunk for sure. At least I know he was only sort of trying.

So, I will swallow my feelings of chronic disappointment ( BC- its not contempt. At all. Really. If anything, I tend to get overwhelmed with feelings of protectiveness and sadness for the broken little boy inside MJK ) and continue to stick it out.

I like onions....

So, MJK is upset.

When he got home, I was cold - distant. I was/am upset that he hadnt called about the poly. That he had let is slide since Thursday last.

I asked him about it, and he got upset. He said that he feels that he is learning to run, that just as he gets some momentum, I hit him over the head with a bat. Or maybe a frying pan. I forget. Something that would leave a dent, anyway.

So, Im like "wth?" He is upset because I am asking him to be accountable????

Here is how I feel. I feel like reading posts, links and MB sites is something I have done virtually EVERY DAY for FOUR YEARS. Actually more than 4 years. And yet Ive managed to keep a house going, pull in well over 6 figures in my job, be a Mom, read self help books AND meet his emotional needs.

I. AM. SO. OUT. OF. PATIENCE.

So, he did go and immediately schedule the poly. For this Friday. He says he is "fine". He is not upset or mad. Guess what? He is distant and not at all affectionate to me.

I seriously cant take this anymore.

JK - I can see your frustration, and I don't think MJK realizes just how good he has it that you're still around and even thinking about continuing/starting real recovery.

He does need to get w/ the program quickly, I think, but I don't have any suggestions as to how to get HIM to be the one to flip that switch, change his system/habits, commit to being better, whatever it takes. He's GOT to be humble, be vulnerable, and really be stripped bare.

I don't have any advice w/ this other than to say I'm sorry you're having to experience this.

JK,

On the polygraph, he doesn't need to take the polygraph and you don't need to trust him either. There are a bunch of ways to show and build trust. I wouldn't let him use this as an example of you controlling him. I would just tell him I was disappointed you didn't schedule a polygraph as I don't feel safe with you and you not scheduling it is just another data point demonstrating this as I don't feel safe and I don't think either of us think not feeling safe in a marriage is considered ok or good.

On a different subject, I understand it is easy to dwell on all MJK's faults, weaknesses, dysfunction especially since he had the A but I don't get it as I don't think it is a wise way to recover your marriage.

Say he is PA. Say that he has been formally diagnosed and it is true. He goes and gets fixed and now everything is going to be great?

Or if he is PA what does that say about you having dealt with it all these years and you keep dealing with it the way you have. Poor you right. You are a victim of a PA person and I can't have a marriage with a PA as it is impossible. Why even try if it is impossible?

Just like those folks that are married to alcoholics. [censored] and [censored] about the alcoholic when they enable enable and enable some more.

I don't get(not that I have to) your constant focus on him and what is broken in him.

I think you are much better off being respectful of him and his experience in life and being clear when things hurt you and separating yourself from him when he tries to spin you or convince you that you are controlling him when you tell him something hurts you.

Being withdrawn and distant like you were tonight can be considered PA. Why not put the issue on the table?

How often do you communicate with the marriage builders folks or other counselors?

A poly is absolutely necessary when the BS deems it so. It can also prompt a flood of truth in some cases.

Karma,

It is not the only way and it is not about being blind.

Another way is for JK to follow her boundaries and let violations of her boundaries(he hurting her) cause her to make her own decisions instead of caving into her boundaries when he spins her. That is strength.

Ms V-

Thanks for the post. I appreciate it.

TJD -

I am an enabler. I know that. Im saying that Im not going to enable anymore. Quite simple, really.

I have ignored any faults, as you say - in MJK for years. ive accepted less than nothing in many cases. All I am simply saying is that Im not doing it anymore. end of story.

We speak to Kimberly once a week, and MJK has an appt w SH on Wed. So, often.


And, I need the poly. It is MY boundary.

[quote][[censored] and [censored] about the alcoholic when they enable enable and enable some more./quote]

Im sorry - point out to me how me holding him accountable is enabling?

Wouldnt enabling be to allow him to get out of a poly, to violate my boundaries?

Look- I am admittedly out of patience. Its been a long time. Im out of gas, folks.

Am I here bitching about it? I guess I am.

Sorry about the word bitching as you are hearing a different message than I am communicating.

I'm just sharing reference points - things you say and communicate isn't something that is unique to only you and your relationship and in the end I know you will do what is best for you.

My W's father was an alcoholic. When I focused on that it simply made things worse, she was broken and that was the problem in my mind and I brought it to her attention. Didn't work for me is all I am saying. And looking back it was Dr. Harley that got me off that and I think he was right. I needed to be more respectful and understand her point of view and appreciate where she was coming from. I wanted the same thing.

Not sure if this would be the same for you but another good step for us was stepping away from MB'ers and the counseling. We spent a couple of years talking weekly or every other week and the principles get ingrained in you but we used the counselors as a crutch. When we stopped it left it up to us to figure it out. I can't tell you how many times after this where we would be in the middle of something destructive and we would both stare at each other and be thinking through what was happening. We were now on our own and needed to figure it out.

They are all tough lessons.

JK -- you are perfectly entitled to not put up with it anymore. Only you can decide your limits.

I really dont want this to be me.

Hi Kim,

Wow you have been busy and you've been given a lot of good advice.

I have a question. Do you still love, and I mean lifetime love, your husband. If you do, then I would advise you to back off abit and deal directly with him and not the advice givers here. I do not mean that as any criticism, I mean it only that you seem to be gettign to caught up now in a p*****g contest. Your person to deal with is your husband on and exclusive basis. If the true issues is O&H, which it seems, then deal more with him. If you really are that out of love with him, well then you know the answer.

I do understand, Kim, your frustration of living the last four years, and even before, without being assured of his open and honest intimate conversation, his honesty with regard to his committment to you and your marriage, and your fear of the future with him.

Still and all Kim I feel now that he must be really unfomfortable right now with this. It almost seems like a contest. I have to tell you that if Char and I were in this situation, I would be extremely uncomfortable too. I would advise her to shut down for awhile and I would take a time out and take her on a retreat. I mean physically a retreat to discuss where were are now, and more importantly, do we really want to stay married and why. It could be a weekend MB, a religious retreat, or something else, but pretty much structured. You two really need intimate time now. You two need to hash this out because you two are the only two people in the world who can resolve this. I feel that what you are doing now is obtaining alot of support for your existing resentments. I think that the issue of the gawking was the that infamous straw that broke the camel.

Ya know what, I have traits that my wife has wished I hadn't over the years. I'm not that observant honestly when it comes to trying to guess her 'hints', and sometimes not noticing she has changed her hair, or even realizing she is angry with me and not knowing why. Sometimes she has said I am too stoic and non-conversant when she wants to converse and gets cutsy and teasy and I am too worried or focused on some things in my daily life to respond the way she would like. And of course there is my alcoholism which she had to endure for many years, and my excuses and dishonesty during that time. She was always willing to confront me about these things. Thru her I was encouraged to change, which I did. But, it took many many intimate conversations between Us. We were both in joint counseling for a few years due to both my alcohilism and her manic depression. We both had much advice and many opinions. The bottom line was tho how much did we love each other and how much were we both willing to change ourselves. How much were we both willing to learn to not engage in behavior that made the other uncomfortable. In terms of her manic depression Kim that is a little more difficult to change, but it meant for me to make our home as relaxed and safe as possible to prevent her from undue anxiety, and for her it meant to take her medication as prescribed and to learn ways to relieve stress and.

I guess the bottom line Kim is that at this point you need to have a heart to heart with him once and for all. I don't feel that at this time you are going to accomplish that much in a public forum. Just imho and based on my experience that heart to heart needs to be done in a more soothing and comfortable environment. And, that is why I suggested a retreat. After that I believe you will know how much he is willing to change vs. the risk you feel now at staying in your marriege. It doesn't matter if your guy is P/A or not. He is a big boy. It matters how much he is willing to change for you given your help and guidance.

Good luck and prayers Kim,

Tom

If Kim needs MisterJK to take a polygraph, then MisterJK needs to take the polygraph.

If he wants to stay married to JK and have a happy and fulfilling marriage, he needs to do whatever it takes...willingly and without hem-hawing around about it. In fact, I'd say he should be CHEERFULLY doing it!

IMHO, MisterJK acts as if everything will settle down and Kim will "get over it" after a while if he puts off doing what she needs him to do.

JK, you've mentioned that his mother had a horrible temper, although she loved her children very much. Could she have been one of those people who blow sky-high when angry; and, then, once the anger got out of her system, she went on with life as if nothing had happened?

For instance, was she the type of mother who pitched a screaming fit because the kids had made a mess, but then stepped in and cleaned it up herself without requiring the kids to clean it up? If that is the case, I think that MisterJK probably learned his behavior there...to just let things slide until the anger was over without having to actually do anything about it.

I think his resentment may be coming from the fact that you are no longer willing to let him get away with his crap. Well, I would want to say, "Put your big boy pants on and deal with it. I am NOT your mother!"

TJD is right

I am done bitching. Thanks everyone for all your help.

Kim - what's one thing you can do today that will build your confidence in your own personal worth, irrespective of what Mr. JK does or doesn't do today?

You're doing good, missy

You need to scratch the last four years. Sorry about that. You are building resentment over those years, feeling that you did all the work and MJK did nothing. Let that go. It's over. It's yesterday. You're starting again.

Onions. What would veggie soup or a good pot roast be without them?

The Harleys talk on MB radio about lying
MB Radio lying and trust

Kim TJD has a way of making you angry (i know he helped me a lot too), but then you think about what he is saying and it was usually true. You and i both have bitched about our husbands faults for many years. What has that bitching got us? Nothing but heart ache and resentment therefore more bitching. And a vicious cycle. (like you, not throwing rocks at glass houses, you noticed i said we both)

What was hard for me to understand about what TJD kept saying was that i was focusing on him and i did not think i was, i thought i was focusing on how his behavior made ME feel.

We both know we can't change their behavior, but we can change ours, so like you did the other day and took your son and left at dinner, that was changing the way YOU acted towards his behavior, therefore HE noticed that something must have been wrong with HOW he did something, so hopefully then he realizes that and makes a change himself.

It took me a LONG LONG time to finally understand what TJD was saying and since i have implemented changes in ME, it has made changes in HIM.

When he does something that hurts my feelings i now walk away, right then and there, i do not wait and call him on it later, i walk away right then and there. It has then made him realize that what he did bothered me and he stops and thinks before he does things a little more now.

I am still working on myself because sometimes i just get upset when i feel like he is not listening to me or something, but i have been changing the way "I" deal with it and it too is bringing about changes in him.

It is still a work in progress for sure.....

KA

that's a good question. I always wait for MJK to DO something. When he foes I feel better. When he doesn't I feel unloved

how sad that I don't know how to answer thisquestion

SC-

First, Im not mad at TJD. I appreciate his opinion and much of what he says is very valid- no worries there.

Second, I can see your point. Thank you.

Im going to stop posting on MB for awhile. Thanks everyone for all your help.

I wish you all the best and many blessings

JK

Sorry to hear this JK.

I wish you all the best too.......

Hi JK,

I sincerely hope my post did not add to any of your discomfort. My primary feeling was that your two threads were getting to a push-pull situation.

Actually I think laying off here for a few days might be better now for the both of you, as long as he is willing to truely engage you in O&H Conversation and truely listen. The latter is in my opinion the most important right now, and that is entirely up to him.

Just best of luck and prayers,

Tom

PS i forgot to add yesterday that i did not think you were mad at TJD, i just meant there were times when he posted to me on my thread and at the moment i would be so angry with what he posted, then after i would think about it for a few days i would realize he was right ...

I really hope that MrJK steps up to the plate for you.......

God Bless you all!!!!