First, I owe you guys an apology. I haven't been completely honest here and for that I am sorry. We've reached a crossroads in our R and I want to get things right this time, so I've come here for help.

I don't know if any of you will remember, but addiction had A LOT to do with the circumstances that brought LaLa and I to MB. Not the addiction to an OP, but addiction to marijuana. Fourteen months ago or about a year into our "recovery", LaLa resumed her addiction to pot. From my perspective, it completely derailed our R. Of course, there are all the moral objections to this addiction, but on top of that, it is an enormous trigger for me. In the months leading up to LaLa's A, her drug use escalated to an ounce per week. I watched as it affected every aspect of our life. She began calling off work for days, weeks and eventually months at a time. She filed short-term disability claims to keep from being fired for absenteeism, putting our family's health insurance at risk. I saw her as jeopardizing everything I was working to build. It was horrible and just when I thought things couldn't get any worse...she started the A with scuz bucket boy.

It's taken me a long time to face my part in all this. I was the textbook conflict-avoiding enabler. I mistakenly believed that allowing LaLa to live as she wanted and overlooking this addiction made me a good husband. I lied, I covered it up, I made excuses, I believed as long as it wasn't hurting anyone, what was the big deal. I believed that if I made enough money that the family budget didn't suffer it wasn't a problem. I spent most of my time walking on eggshells trying to find a balance between legitimate marital complaints and what was the addiction talking. I was in total and complete denial. Everything that Dr. Harley warns about in the Co-dependency article I did wrong.

Dr. Harley wrote:
"But even after sobriety is achieved, it's an uphill battle for the couple. The spouses of addicts are usually so relieved when treatment is successful that they often think their marital troubles are over. It's true, addiction makes it impossible to resolve marital conflicts. But sobriety itself doesn't solve them -- it simply makes them solvable. Once addiction is overcome, a couple is faced with the legions of other Love Busters that were ignored in the shadow of addiction or were created by addiction."

When I read this paragraph it became crystal clear why I have struggled so much in recovery. For some reason, I have always felt EXTRA betrayed by what happened if that makes any sense. Like, LaLa had some nerve to claim some grand unhappiness considering the liberty she was taking with our M. Anyhoo, back to the point of this post. Over the past two months, we have had several knock down drag out confrontations where I demanded that LaLa get sober for good. It got really ugly a couple of times.

After the last confrontation, she decide to get on Facebook behind my back and send friend requests to not ONE BUT TWO EX-BOYFRIENDS!!! She exchanged messages with both these men and proceeded to keep her actions hidden from me by deleting her Facebook notifications and gmail trash can every day so I would not catch on. For someone that has not had an A, FB is a huge red flag. For some that has had an A, knows MB principles and was given a second chance, it is down right disrespectful, spiteful, mean and cruel. All in the name of getting back at me for taking a stand against her drug use. It is so obvious to me now how she ended up in an A in the first place over some perceived neglect in our M. Say goodbye to any trust that has been rebuilt. Obviously, she's still entirely capable of actions that would cause me pain. It was flat out deliberate betrayal.

So, after all this, I offered to try and rebuild one last time. I required 4 things to demonstrate an understanding of the seriousness of the situation and a commitment to helping me build a better M.

1. Getting Sober
2. Joining a recovery program
3. Deleting the freaking FB account!
4. Reworking the MB program

It's been about 6 weeks since all this went down. She is clean and sober now which I can verify. The Facebook account was deleted. She is making an effort to work on the M. Unfortunately, she's still not in a recovery program and feels no need to work the MB program again. She believes it's all on me to decide to be happy, stop living in the past and let it go. That's not gonna work for me because right now, I don't not feel safe in this M or like we are headed down a path of recovery. Instead, I feel completely disrespected, unappreciated and placated.

You know, I remember a conversation LaLa and I had about two months before the A began. She came home telling me this story about how scuz bucket boy OM told her that everyone SETTLES in M. We both laughed at what an utterly ridiculous statement it was. We both expressed such enormous gratitude to one another for being lucky enough to marry our best friend and how neither of us had SETTLED. If memory serves, our whole laugh over it ended in SF. I no longer feel that way and I haven't for going on 4 years now. I can't do it anymore and I will not SETTLE for the mediocre M that has been left in the wake of LaLa's A. Either we are going to work together as a team to build a better M than before or we are going our separate ways.

I love her and I still want this M, but I no longer NEED this M to be happy. She's gonna have to step up and take the lead for a while. I'm emotionally, mentally and physically spent and I can't carry it anymore without help.

Any thoughts?

Am I being to harsh?

Is what I wrote within MB principles?

What would you do under these circumstances?

Want2Stay

I can see why shes not been posting here.

Can't have a good marriage when there is a drug addiction.

No one can live with a wayward like that.

"Can't we all just forget and move on?"

She isn't repentant. I think she's just going through the motions to keep you.

Maybe you can get some MBers (female) that she listened to before send her an email or two to shake her up enough to come back here.

I hope so Road, but I've learned that hope is not a plan.

Want2Stay

I doubt she would stay long, you KNOW she is got to get 2 x 4ed through the Pit of Tartarus and back...

(Er, sorry...little too much Greek mythology lately.)

"I love her ..."

I suggest examining in detail what you mean by "I love her".

I suspect you still care about her wellbeing.

But, there is no need to continue to fool your self about what love really is. Love may be you turn her in next time she is in possession.

Love may be you set her free to hit bottom.

Love may be you walk away and never look back.

Find an Alanon meeting. Soon. Quickly.


eta: Defenders of legalized marijuana use make me angry. It is as addictive and life ruining as alcohol and any given hard drug. And there is absolutely no peer reviewed study supporting medical benefits.

Yeah....I know.

Want2Stay

Holy crap...It's Aph!

I've read pretty much everything there is to read from Nar-Anon. Unfortunately, meetings are far and few between in my area. So, I know the drill. Thanks for chiming in...

Want2Stay

W2S,

You KNOW what you need to do......

Call the coaching center NOW.....(I have told Lala this for months....)

There is NO reason or excuse for you NOT to......

{{{{W2S}}}}

Not

Thanks Not...I really appreciate the support. Really we get about 90% of it right. It's the other 10% that is screwing things up. Something just doesn't feel right to me and I'm tired of pretending everything is OK. We need to make some changes.

Want2Stay

W2S, if you feel you are at the end of your rope, it is your prerogative not to work on things.

If you truly do not wish to continue it is your call, not WW's.

W2S,


I support your M.....you KNOW this. Everything you posted, I already knew.....HOWEVER.......you need to be honest on here about your side of the street.

You BOTH needs to make changes.....and it needs to be under the guidance of the professionals this time. Call them yesterday......you BOTH need help......

Sorry W2S....

She has snowed you long enough! It's not really even gaslighting anymore, yanno!

I would divorce!

If I were to see true repentance after the divorce.....

Well, who knows??

I agree with TST.

If johnstwin can remarry her FXH then you could do so with your WW too if she repented.

Nar-Anon would help you, W2S, but LaLa needs to step up to the plate and seek out help for herself.

I've always thought that she blamed you because she had to give up some things to provide EPs, when the reason she had to give them up was because of HER actions.

Even though she ended the affair, I think that she still wants her cake and to eat it to...to just go along doing what she wants and expecting you to be happy with it.

In essence, it seems as if her actions are saying, "Well, I'm still here, aren't I?", as if that is all that is required for a happy and healthy marriage.

Drugs are not going to help her feel good about herself or deal with life. Doing the right thing is what will help her.

It's a shame LaLa isn't presenting her butt here for a good welcome back to MB! I still remember the first night she arrived and my foot is twitchy!

Not,

I kind of assumed that you already knew. You and LaLa are good friends so I figured that she had confided in you. I'm not trying to claim some higher ground here. I just want things fixed and pretending the elephant isn't still sitting in the room was getting us no where fast. Neither was me telling LaLa how I feel about what was happening. So, I figured the best place to have this discussion would be on neutral ground where we could both be called on our own stuff.

I know I'm no saint and recovery has been HARD. I'm more than willing to make changes and improve this M. It had to start with me taking a stand against her drug use or there would have been no hope and counseling would not have been an option.


Whether LaLa believes me or not, I am trying to make things better. It starts with owning the past year and really our whole relationship and rebuilding it from the ground up. There is no going back to the circumstances that led us here. It was TOO big a trigger and to painful for me to live that old lifestyle.

I'm not sure any of this matters. LaLa is furious that I posted the events of the last two months here. She sees it as an attack rather than a cry for help and is insisting that the M is over. It's just not worth it to her.

Want2Stay

Oh boy. Man, does that hit home for me as well. Something that you just cant quite put your finger on but you KNOW there is something wrong. I live with that feeling nearly every day. It is gut wrenching and I am so sorry for you.



I understand this very well. Whatever self esteem or security you might have rebuilt now seems like a sham, doesnt it? I certainly sounds to me like you are upholding YOUR end of the bargain. You are staying in the M, wading through the muck and mountains of pain and opening yourself up to trusting again.

LaLa, however... has fallen far short. Like my own H - she speaks words but her behavior is dishonest. To me, the WS needs to demonstrate THROUGH ACTIONS that are concrete that you are safe. LaLa has, through her actions, demonstrated the exact opposite. What a cowardly, passive aggressive way to handle a situation. Im struggling with some dishonesty in my M myself so I really feel for you.

Im going to put the next paragraph in bold. It is a painful sotry for me to tell but really really relevent .

my previous husband died of a THC related heart attack. He was 39 years old . There is not a person alive that can convince me that marijuana is a "harmless" drug. IT IS NOT. The is NOTHING harmless about it. It alters dopamine levels and causes a state of chemical imbalance in the brain. It has been linked to bipolar states, in that it can bring on manic and depressive states in a person not known to suffer from either disorder previously.

W2S - you cant have a relationship with this woman until she gets herself together. My previous M ended and he died alone at 39 because he never quit.

The facebook crap alone is reason enough to send lala packin'.

Now she is pouting like a true wayward for being called out on her behaviors. Good Grief!

I can hear it now, "I did stop smokin' dope and facebooking with old highschool sweethearts, so what's your problem now".

Kinda like sayin', "I did end the A, so get over it already"!

<pause>


I'm sure she's Tellin' all her IRL and MB friends what a terrible H she has and how she deserves to have someone that will work as hard as she has to recover this marriage. You know,,,, the poor me crap!

wayward snow job! let me get a shovel.....

you'd be a bit WRONG about this, TST. At least this is not been my experience......and I talked to Lala last night. She does however have some very valid complaints that have been voiced for quite some time, before the resumption of the pot use and FB debacle. Which, btw, I knew about the FB but not about the exboyfriends part. I learned of this yesterday.....

W2S.....I will repeat again, the help you two need is BEYOND these boards. You need professional help. Call the Harleys.... Call the Harleys.....Call the Harleys....

You have TWO precious reasons to do this........(I reiterated this last night to Lala.....)

I am NOT on anyone side......I AM on the side of your marriage.....

In the face of drug use, i view this as little more than a distraction to the real problem. Pointing at him does not solve the problem, nor is it an excuse for dope smoking.

If want calls the Harleys for help, I will tell you what they are going to say: ADDRESS THE ADDICTION FIRST. The Harleys can't do anything about this marriage until that is stopped. She needs to be either in a treatment center or at Nar-Anon, and the marriage comes later.

not, as her friend, are you encouraging her to knock off the dope smoking?

Not2fun, I have a great deal of respect for you and I'm treading lightly when I say this...... She has been tellin' you "half truths", which we both know is the typical MO of a wayward. Half truths or critically withheld information is really just lyin'. She has been bull$hittin' you not2fun. You might not want to beleive it, but she has.

not2fun, were you aware of her drug use? And if so, what you been doing about it? I am hard pressed to understand how you could maintain a "friendship" with someone who is an active addict. [read: wayward]

Substance abuse trumps the marital problems. I lived with a drinker and dope user (WxH). It definitely stunted any hopes for recovery. I did not have the patience that Want has to stick it out (of course, my WH was continuing his wayward behavior and affairs) .

The FB stuff was cruel. Just plain cruel. There is NO excuse. If you have VALID complaints than seek the appropriate help. I've got all kinds of complaints, but I don't make it a point to purposely HURT someone to solve the problem. That's a load of crap.

ITA SL, no matter what things are going on and especially since she has been to MB and now knows that slippery slope, this was just a slap in W2S's face for sure.

I have had more complaints than i can count in my soon to be 25 years of marriage, yet i don't try to purposely hurt anyone either. And i do not even have an FB account, much less one where i talk to ex anythings and delete my conversations and i was NOT the wayward. This is JUSTIFICATION at it's finest.

Sorry Not but i agree with tst....

JK,

Thanks for the advice and support. Actually, you posting of your struggles is what finally promted me to post of mine/ours. I've had this post written for about 2 weeks, but I was waiting while you got help to post. I do want this to work out. I want a better M and that was the point of posting.

LaLa is clean and sober. Not only that, but I believe through her actions that she does intend to stay that way. It's the underlying unresolved issues that made it so important that I'm concerned about. She recently went back on ADs to deal with the rage she feels inside. I do feel for her and know why she feels the escape is neccessary, but this is a band-aid fix and not what I need to feel safe. We need to do this together, which I am more than willing to do. I can't force her though. I'm trying to do the right thing and make things better.

Want2Stay

p.s I'm super slammed at work with a looming deadline, so I apologize if my responses are a bit sporadic.

Then why not come here and tell her side of the story?

I agree with tst ~ the fact that she told W2S the M was over for posting here sounds like a wayward that freaks out after exposure.

((W2S)) I am very sorry to read about the FB thing. I can't imagine how much that must have hurt. I know men are different than women, but this would be all too much for me ~ I would move on and focus on a personal recovery at this point.

90%??? Are you kidding me? Being a drug addict, enabling a drug addict, walking all over your BS, having a FB account with exBFs, telling your BS that he just needs to "get over it", not using POJA, not using PORH, being a CAer...means you are getting 90% of it right?

Sorry to be harsh but W2S you need to wake up...your M is getting 90% of it WRONG, not right.

Not...you are listening to and believing a wayward drug addict about these things? Really?

W2S, if you know what Not is talking about here, please post it so that an unbiased opinion can be given from those of us here. This is only fair to both you and LaLa.

MFer,

I believe that LaLa would say that I have made zero changes in R. That I have put in no effort. That I was deliberately withholding love and not meeting her ENs. To which I say, I have done the best I could under the circumstances. I have tried to meet LaLa's ENs of conversation and admiration and I have never withheld love or affection from her intentionally. Have I had a hard time investing in the R with everything that has been going on? Yep....tremendously, but I was/am trying to improve our M for the better.

Want2Stay

W2S, IMO, you will continually be disappointed and triggered so long as LaLa continues with the drug abuse. YOU will not feel safe to give to her until THAT problem is solved....and I don't just mean quitting the use, but getting real help and starting a path to TRUE recovery.

If this is her complaint, then SL is correct...she is not entitled to unconditional love.

Furthermore she is dreadfully foggy if this is her attitude. One can be wayward without being in an actual A and it sounds like this is the case for LaLa.

I do not believe that you can even be in the right frame of mind to critically think about YOUR part in a problem and fix said problems if you are not sane and sober. That requires personal recovery first. Meanwhile, your spouse is waiting in the sidelines....unfair, but that's the way it crumbles...

It is impossible to meet the needs of an addict anyway. It is a bottomless pit that will wear you out. Her drug addiction is a huge lovebuster that has to be addressed BEFORE you can ever begin to work on the marriage.

That is why I view all this talk about want2stay's side of the street as a distraction.

Agreed

Right out of the mouth of the wayward, and onto the MB pages!

Sooo, Resonance, aka. lala has been smokin' weed for over a year...... now she is upset that DH has called her out on this behavior and she says..... "He hasn't been meeting my needs".


She KNEW exactly the choice she was making.
Heck, she was advising others to RUN, seek a professional, etc.!

She is still a typical wayward con.

W2S

Jeez. I hate to think ANYONE is watching my thread and hoping for some clarity. Im a terrible example of MB recovery ( or lack thereof ).

I so feel for you and agree with most. Your W has to stay sober, which you are saying she is at present? OK. Hard to believe, but OK.

Dont sweep it under the rug, though W2S. I know how easy it is to do that. I did it for years in my previous M which resulted in disaster and I do it all the time in my current M.

And your 90% comment? I GET what you are saying. I do. It might not make sense to most but it does to me. MJK and I are 90% too. What that means to me ( and might mean to you ) is we have a GREAT M and R if I choose to ask for nothing and accept whatever MJK gives me. If I choose to just go along. Then, we are 90%. We are super affectionate, have great SF, have alot in common and common interests - share a similiar profession. On the surface we look pretty close to perfect. Its only when I lift the lid and look under the covers that I see all the dysfunction.

I *think* that is what you are saying?

I have to run but want to post more to you later. Hang in there, broheim.

This is what I have said ALL ALONG. I have been very specific on here about this.......I have been very specific about this off boards with Lala as well......for a very long time. No I am not her enabler. No I have not condoned these actions. In fact, when she was spinning this otherwise, I was very clear on my points about. I will re-iterate what I have stated on here and to Lala...I am on the side of the marriage and recovery, including personal recovery.......

The problems run much deeper than these boards can handle......for BOTH of them....

None of what I wrote above is meant as a disrespect or dispute of you TST. My respect and care of you and SMB runs very deep. I will also attest that as far as chemical addiction is beyond my realm of experience, while it is not so much beyond yours......

Not

I agree with you Not, but this is MARRIAGE BUILDERS, not a recovery group for drug abuse. That's what the marriage needs FIRST. No amount of W2S working on marital recovery is gonna make a dent until LaLa is in her own recovery. W2S can clean and clean and clean his side of the street, but without proper direction from his spouse (clean and sober and owning their own stuff) then all of his work is for naught, IMO. Sooooo, talking about how they 'both' have work to do is moot right now.

For now, W2S just has to hang on while LaLa works her own recovery program. She can't direct him on how to fill her needs until she plugs up the holes that his efforts might be draining out of.

I wouldn't want to recover with someone who didn't want to recover. It's added insult to the assault already dealt.

ITA again SL, W2S just hang on until LaLa works this out.

It does not matter what W2S "side of the street" looks like if LaLa can not even practice EPs......

ITA.

The best way W2S can improve himself at this point is stop enabling,which he is has been doing beautifully.

If BOTH of these people have marital issues to work out, that won't happen until they are BOTH on a level playing field. Right now, LaLa is playin' dirty and trying to convince W2S that he should just suck it up (if that's the case...dunno cuz LaLa aint here). Wow, that is about as uncaring as one can get...outside of having another affair. Oooohhhhh, wait, LaLa did make contact with exes. Sheesh.

Hey MF (I love typing that! )

I went to Alanon and changed myself...I divorced because I knew that I couldn't accept things as they were and I knew we wouldn't get better until the Z stepped up. It was scary taking those first steps...but I am grateful that I did. Living in constant pain was....well....fricken painful

I know of a few people who stayed married to dry users and drunks. Sure, they don't drink or use anymore, but the poor boundaries and mentality of a user is still there, leaving the door open to hurt their spouse/SO. I just couldn't live like that. No amount of Alanon would keep my rage from building over the years...I know this about myself. It's painful to read about families dealing with substance abuse by just brushing it aside or acting like it's not part of the problem. UGH. And we, the enablers, go along and say "Oh well, pot's not THAT bad...it's not like it's heroine" and make excuses and blame ourselves for [censored] that isn't ours to own.

But have you spoken out against them, not2fun? Silence is the same as enabling with an addict. I will just tell you that as a former addict myself, I am very puzzled how you manage to remain friends under these conditions.

The only ppl who remained friends with me were the ENABLERs when I was using because the ones who really cared about me wouldn't tolerate it.

When I was an active addict I surrounded myself with ppl who would condone or tolerate my bad behavior. When I sobered up, I did not remember those fondly who sat by and either said nothing or outright enabled me.

Mel, you beat me to this by a minute. This is so true with addicts. I saw this in my three brothers, addicts all. The only friends they had were those that would not rock the boat.

The two now clean and sober have genuine caring friends and they have nothing to do with those former friends who would not get up and kick their butt.

It�s a lot like friends and acquaintances of my wife and me who knew about but never said anything to her against her VLTA. They did not necessarily condone it but they never condemned it either.

They are all cut out of my life. And to a person the losers still do not understand.

Oh puhlease.....this is so very far from the truth about me. I have made it very clear my role and my actions concerning Lala very clear. I have not been silent nor enabling.....your insinuations are out of line.

I have offered my advice both here and off-line. I've become a broken record. Call the Harleys....call the Harleys....call the Harleys.....I know for a FACT I am not the only one on here to have stated this.....

They will give them direction.....a PLAN......I would wager on this and I am not a gambler.....

I doubt that. A user will not tolerate anyone that objects loudly to their drug use so the fact that you are still even socializing tells me alot. We addicts surround ourselves with enablers and actively avoid the ones who really object.

not, I don't know you and I don't know your full role in all of this, being LaLa's friend; however from the little that I do know, I believe the enabling everyone is referring to is in your comments about W2S owning his part.

Really? He is living with and ADDICT and someone who is still very, very wayward in her thinking. There really isn't a lot to "own" and as Mel said, an addict will NEVER be happy with W2S's "efforts" ~ yet you seem to have fallen for LaLa's "woe is me, he isn't meeting my needs either" mantra.

I'm sorry to sound harsh but that isn't helpful at all...to either LaLa OR W2S. Do you see this?

not2fun, I promise you she will not remember you fondly when she sobers up. Anyone that was my "friend" when I was drinking was not really my friend because my real friends couldn't stand to watch that self destruction and listen to my wacked out bullcrap.

You might be telling her to "call the Harleys" [I have no idea why] but what have you said about her dope usage?

IOW, not...you are believing an ADDICT with a wayward mentality over someone who is neither of these things.

Not trying to beat you up but I'm sure when you look at it this way you will see what I am talking about...

Yes once again you are correct and i really did not mean that W2S should not clean up "his side of the street", what i was trying to get at is that if LaLa can not see what her behavior is doing to the M then it does not matter much WHAT W2S does because it will never be enough.......

SL,

I know this to be true. I tried to fake it for 10 months and it nearly sent me to the funny farm. I didn't change the dynamic in our relationship, LaLa did. Once I saw how dysfunctional this addiction made us, there has been no going back for me.

Want2Stay

SQ,

I don't know If LaLa will come here or not. I hoped that if she heard this stuff from someone besides me that it would get through, but I'm beginning to think I was wrong.

The FB thing was very painful. Fortunately, I've developed such a hardened heart from all the pain that has been inflicted upon me in the past 4 years that I bounce back quickly.

Want2Stay

SL,

Like I told Aph, I know the drill. I can't control this and LaLa is going to have to face it on her own. All I can do is be supportive and insist that she own it. It sucks being the one to hold up the mirror, but our boys and me deserve a wife and mother that has TRULY recovered from this addiction.

Want2Stay

Herein lies the problem. Taking a stand against this addiction is being seen as a convenient excuse to put ALL the blame on LaLa for our M issues. Because she was so out of control and so strung out at the time of the A, I couldn't possibly have met her needs. That is what Dr. Harley says. "It is impossible to meet the needs of an addict." It takes away LaLa's ability to say Want wasn't meeting my needs and that's why I did what I did. Problem is I don't care about that. What I care about is TODAY and the things that need to happen for us to build a happy recovered M from this point forward.

Want2Stay

Tst,

Wow...no wonder I've had the issues I have the past year.



Want2Stay

Not,

You seem to have gotten caught in the crossfire here and I'm sorry for that. I have absolutely ZERO doubt that you are in the corner of our M and are not taking sides.

Let me tell you my side of the story. I first confronted LaLa about this issue last August, 10 months ago. After spending 4 months researching and counseling with TMTS and a few others. I finally gathered the courage to approach LaLa with the way her drug use was making me feel. I went to her and pleaded with her to stop and help me build a better M. I offered plans, I was non-judgemental, I was as loving and caring as a spouse could possibly be and I was SHOCKED at her response. I was gaslighted, blamed and scoffed at for being triggered by it. Not, all I see when she uses is the person she became during the A. Someone capable of inflicting enormous pain on the person they vowed to love, honor and cherish. It HURT like heck.

So, I had set the boundary. Which she then proceeded to walk all over for 3 more months until I confronted her again. I convinced myself that she just didn't understand my point of view and with the time that had passed she would be more receptive this time around. BIG MISTAKE!!! Got another round of blame shifting, gaslighting and out right anger that I was expecting her to get clean. Which brought us to the confrontations the past two months. I set the boundary so how on earth am I supposed to enforce it? You know what having someone walk all over your boundaries does to you. It will eat you alive.

I truly believe that had I called the Dr. Harley the advice would have been nuclear exposure/intervention and plan b. Recovery in our M is not going to take place until this is dealt with completely.

This post and trying to get LaLa to engage is my alternative. You see even after all the pain and suffering she has inflicted on me, I still couldn't bring myself to blindside her like that. I love her dearly and I want a better M, but I'm not taking anymore more bullcrap. Like I told LaLa, I deserve better, our boys deserve better and she deserves better. If it means that she ends up hating me for taking a stand and defending our family.....so be it. Because finally, I'm able to look myself in the eye again in the mirror and know that I am doing EVERYTHING I possibly could to get this right.

The rest is out of my control and is up to LaLa. I can only control my actions and I'm going to stand behind them.

Want2Stay

W2S ~ why is she so afraid to come here?

LaLa ~ please come and tell us your side of the story. You know that we want your M to succeed, like so many of ours are.

It might be hard but it's worth it...I promise. Improving your M is your best option; it certainly can't be any worse than things are for you right now. It's obvious W2S cares about you and wants nothing more than a wonderful M...with you.

The hardest part is going to be to put down your pride. Please take that first step.

Want, and I am talking about TODAY and what needs to happen first. What needs to happen first is that the addiction is addressed and resolved. That can only happen if she gets treatment. In 12 step groups, for example, only the first step is about quitting. The other 11 are focused on resolving the living problem that led to the addiction in the first place. Until that is addressed, nothing really changes and the addict continually relapses.

I understand you are not perfect. But discussing that is a distraction until the addiction problem is resolved. When the Titanic is sinking the first step is to right the ship and THEN worry about the knocking noise from the engine room.

MFer,

I don't think she will come here. She believes that I have unfairly, underhandedly, and cruely painted her as an addict and nothing she says or does is going to change anyone's opinion here.

I hope she engages in this discussion, but hope is not a plan. I'm sticking to my plan....

Want2Stay

ML,

I know it is a distraction, but I wanted to answer MF's question. I'm focused on what is happening TODAY.

Want2Stay

Gotcha!

which is what? I have yet to see a PLAN from you......what exactly your plan?

I'm big believer in having a plan. I learned very well about those......I also learned what NOT having a plan avails you.......

So what is it?

So she disagrees that she is an addict, is that what you are saying W2S?

W2S

Exact conversation with the WW 50 days of not drinking alcoholic last night after she talked non stop about the wrongs of Nesre for about 15 minutes. At one point I told her to come up for air!

WW alcoholic has not drank for 50 days but also is still in the fog of how the A and alcoholism has affected the entire family.

Up until DD and I left I could not tell the difference between the two. Both mixed into the M with major devastation. The crazy making still continues on as long as she "does not get it".

Until she "Does get it" (R from alcoholism & becomes rependiant about A) there is nothing to go back for unless crazy making is my goal. Continued heartache?Trying to ride a dead horse?

The greater of these at the moment is the R from Alcoholism.
Not just not drinking. True recovery involves EMPATHY. LIVING AMMENDS. NO SWEEPING PAST ISSUES UNDER THE CARPET.
It does affect the whole family and I would urge you strongly to work with a professional who dealS with addictions specifically.

UNTIL TRUE REOVERY FROM THE OTHER ADDICTION IS IN PLACE I SEE YOU ALONG WITH ME IN THE SAME BOAT.

WHAT ARE YOUR BOUNDERIES AND WHAT IS YOUR PLAN? ARE YOU PREPARED TO CARRY OUT THE CONSEQUENSES?

PROBABLY NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR. SHOULD YOU CHOOSE TO GO INTO IT KEEP YOUR EYES WIDE OPEN KNOWING IT CAN BE UGLY.

NESRE

1. Get LaLa clean and in a recovery program
2. Work the MB program the right way this time either through the online course or the coaching center. Which ever we can afford is fine by me. It will make the budget tight, but our family and this M is worth it.

Step 2 wasn't an option until step one was met. Seems like we may be headed in the right direction.....finally.

Want2stay

Wanted to address this first:


This isn't "your job", W2S. Remember all the talk about boundaries? You are overstepping yours...this is HERS to deal with. You can only control YOU. Remember?

Work your side of the fence. YOUR boundary needs to be "I will not stay in a M with an addict", IMNSHO.

That frees you up to allow her to deal with HER mess. She said on her thread that she will get into an addiction program. GREAT!!!! She should do that and you should SUPPORT her ~ not "force" her to go, not set ultimatums. Do not make excuses for her to miss meetings, do not encourage her to do so for the sake of "UA time". UA time is cr*p with an addict; she needs to get and stay clean FIRST ~ then UA time will matter. Right now it's a waste anyhow because of her addicted, wayward mindset.

She needs to do this on her own, W2S...without you "making her". Let her prove to you she is a big girl; I believe she can do it.

But...you need to let her.

MFer,

Thanks for reminding me of my role. This isn't mine to own.

Want2Stay

THANK YOU.....THANK YOU......THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I beyond a shadow of a doubt can say that I have not asked a single direct question about the A since 3 months after d-day. Which was 4/07. I have, like you said, expressed how events or actions have triggered me to those memories. I always felt like not speaking of the A completely was impossible. How else are you supposed to tell your spouse not to hurt you. You can't dance around it like the events never happened. Now I know why. This clears so much up for me. THANK YOU!!!!!!!

Want2Stay

I would be interested in what YOUR boundaries in regards to drug use in your presence, in your home and in your marriage.

It was mentioned on LaLa's thread that you gave her permission to start using again. What are you doing NOW to prevent yourself from enabling and aiding in the destruction of your future together? I don't mean what are you THINKING of doing, but what actions are you taking to change your poor choices and behaviors. You really do need to be invested in your own side of the street now, more than ever, if you want your marriage to recover; if YOU want to recover.

The truth is out now, about LaLa's waywardness and her poor choices, so she can get the guidance she needs. Now it's time for you to focus on you. Whether you and LaLa remain together, your children will benefit from you getting your head together and making healthier decisions about what you allow in your lives and how you conduct yourself. How can you teach your children that drug use is bad...is wrong, if you condone it in your own home? That's like being a smoker, but telling your kids it's bad for them and not to smoke (my mom tried this one).

I understand what this has all done to you, and how tired you are, but you WILL feel soooo much stronger and happier when you take care of yourself and get YOUR head clear and own YOUR stuff....and we all got stuff

IMO, you and LaLa BOTH have to start personal recovery before you can begin making healthy decisions for your future. You have to AT LEAST start, so you can stop hurting each other.

SL,

My boundary is that drug use will not ever take place in my presence or in our home again. I was part of the problem for a long time admittedly. Smoking dope was something LaLa and I had done together since the beginning of our relationship 14 years ago. There was always a difference though. I was the co-dependent enabler. Once the wool was pulled from my eyes I saw it for what it was and there has been no going back for me.

I did tell LaLa she could get some smoke Christmas break. I told her that I thought it was a bad idea that it was potentially going to trigger me. At the same time, I thought that it was something we had always done together and maybe it would be a chance for us to cut loose and bond together the way we did when we first met. She promised and swore up and down that it would be just enough for that weekend. I bought it hook line and sinker. It never stopped after that day and within a month and a half she was back to smoking several times per day everday.

I've changed immensely since then. I've read pretty much everything I could find on addiction on the net. I'm learning that I've been a CA avoiding, Co-dependent enabler most of my adult life. I've been clean for over a year. I've taken a more active role in our children's lives helping to coach our ODS's baseball team. I've taken over the roll as disciplinarian. I'm more engaged in all aspects of my life.

I FEEL great having taken these steps. There's still plenty of my own issues that I need to work on, but getting the M back on track was my #1 priority.

I'm gonna have to think about what issue I'm going to tackle next.

Want2Stay

That sounds like real progress, but YOUR relapse was such a short time ago, I just want to be sure that you are working hard to maintain good boundaries AND enforcement.

It's easy to say what a boundary is, difficult to enforce the consequence when necessary. I am very glad to hear that you are not using. Do you feel as if your own use should be dealt with?

The biggest problem with even a teeny amount of pot is the side effect of "I don't care". Your family cannot afford even a teeny amount of "I don't care" in your lives - your children have suffered enough and so have you - and in her own way Lala too - but hers is self-inflicted.

I would recommend a thorough study of the 12 step program for yourself as an Anon - and get a sponsor to find out your own inventory.

I once saw a life coach confront someone who was in a snit about addicts in the room slowing down the process of the event and when he jumped her case he told her "You are just as addicted as they are - yours just don't smell the same."

I learned the truth of that phrase when I went through my own recovery program; that anons are addicted to addicts because they get to look better - more patient, more tolerant, heroic, etc.

Stop giving yourself that out and get into recovery so that you stand on your own GOOD behavior rather than just looking good in light of Lala's bad behavior!

I have this same boundary, for my ADULT child who does not live with us.

My drug/alcohol use boundary for my HUSBAND is quite different.

I will not tolerate drug or alcohol use.
Period.
What damn good is your weak boundary if LaLa walks down the street, smokes a doobie, then comes home loaded?

Tighten this one up.
She should not be using at all.

No, not really. I was scared straight and it was never something I did on my own. It was an activity I did with LaLa. Much different than how LaLa used it to cope with everyday life. I will leave it to her though. If she believes I should also work a program I will.

Want2stay

No no no!! You need to work a program for your own good because you are in a relationship with an addict and you enable her and you compensate for her behaviors.

Stop giving her control over your personal recovery!!!!!!

Work a program for YOU W2S!!! We are not talking about LaLa anymore. Now it's time to get your head extracted from YOUR hindquarters and fix your own poor behavior and coping skills.

You don't smoke, but you USE...you use LaLa to hide behind.

Coaching a son's bball team does not a recovered CA/enabler make.

If LaLa fell off the face of the earth tomorrow (which I do not want...so don't go there) then you would still have YOUR issues. Step outside your comfort zone and fix YOU.

I've attempted to find a NAR-Anon program to join. I was really shocked that the meetings are so far a few between. LaLa and I live in the country pretty far away from any large cities so the nearest meeting is once per week and is about a 45 minute drive one-way. It takes place on Saturday evenings at 6:30 pm which is prime UA time for LaLa and I.

I've read pretty much all the material online available through Nar-anon and have attempted to find an online support group.

I should dig deeper and find a solution to this problem. Thanks for pointing it out.

Want2Stay

MFer,

I wanted to address this on my thread. I think that we do probably spend the 15 hours a week. The problem is that it's not quality UA time. It's usually spent sitting and watching TV. Did I mention that I hate watching TV? I guess the big question is how do you find common ground when pretty much all the things you used to enjoy doing together are now off the table because of the damage they have caused? That's been a struggle for both of us. Lately, we have been playing video games together which is something we both enjoy, but that really doesn't count either. We need to work together to find things we can both enjoy.

Want2Stay

Think about ways that you guys can connect that don't require a plug, too! Don't forget that it can be fun just to chuck a frisby around or play catch. You have to work together to make those things fun, and it doesn't require much money. Just sitting around and talking right now might not be the thing to do...

Video games is good, too, as long as you are both really playing together, and not just one of you sitting and watching while the other plays.

Reading to one another can be very soothing, and great time together...

Just keep brainstorming

Go for walks together.
Every day.
Even if there is silence, or just an occasional mention of scenery, it is quality time together.

How about gardening?
How about lying in the grass and playing "I spy"?
How about a picnic? Either indoors or outdoors?
How about a free summer concert in a park?

Volunteering at a shelter?

Go to the library?

Go to a gallery to browse?

Take turns giving a massage?
Take turns brushing each other's hair?
Have a staring contest, first one to laugh must do a dance?

Be inventive.
Have some damn fun!

The RC questionnaire on this site is a fantastic tool. You both fill it out and you are free to like or dislike any of a huge number of activities. It is really useful in helping to identify things you might both enjoy together.

SL,

LaLa is quite the gamer. You can't imagine how satisfying it is to shoot zombies together. We also like to play the games that have a puzzle element to solve. I work the controls and we solve the puzzles together. It's a lot of fun.

Want2Stay

Pep,

I was hoping you would post. I've seen your stuff on addiction and it is awesome. You have such an amazing way of putting things.

Thanks for the UA/RC recommendations. You were spot on again and we need to think outside the box and find new activities that help fill this void. It's been a long time since we just had fun and it's in much need of change.

Want2Stay

SMB,

Thank you for taking the time to post to LaLa. I wanted to take a minute to address this from her thread. LaLa is being honest in that I did encourage her to post very much back then. It was very therapeutic to see her own things she had done to me through her posts. It helped me a great deal and I do believe it was genuine heartfelt sympathy for those she posted to. I watched her shed more than a few tears while helping posters like Learning2Fly, Amazin, Not2Fun, TooMuchTooSoon and RegretIsMe just to name a few.

I do however think you were right on when it came to the admiration aspect of it. It is one of her top ENs. I think more of what happened is that LaLa believed that she was doing what she was supposed to. When she quit posting though she found me still very much in the same pain I was in when we came to MB. She misinterpreted the reasons why and it was a downward spiral from there on. Not to make excuses for her, but that's my take on it anyways...

Want2Stay

W2S, I know I haven't been around very long, but I think you are going to need this advice. STAY OFF OF YOUR F(?)WW's thread. There are reasons that couples are told to stay off of each others threads. This will allow both of you to feel absolutely comfortable in the posts you make and people writing to either of you will feel comfortable writing their thoughts as well.

W2S,


PLEASE, Stop explaining reasons for what she did or didn't do!

You ARE making excuses for her and it's not very flattering.

LaLa never worked the MB program, and now she has a chance to change that.... just stay out of way and let the process happen without trying to cushion her fall all the time.

Every time you try to break her fall, YOU'RE the one that is feeling the pain.

Scotland,

Yeah....I know the rule. Believe me, I'm not making excuses, LaLa has a bit of a credibility problem right now and I wanted to concur that I did encourage her posting back then is all. Man is it hard to follow the rules.....GRRRRR!



Want2Stay

Just sit back and observe.

Go have some fun together.

But please, sit back and observe the actions this time!

W2S......

Don't you dare get on here and fight Lala's battles for her.....

(ohhhhh that felt good!!!!!... )

She's a big girl.......let her do this on her own....

Stay on YOUR side of the fence and work on it.......in fact dear, this thread should be all about YOU!!!!!!

I'm personally wanna hear about YOU.......what are you doing to work on your conflict avoiding issues/enabling/leadership issues??????

Oh, and the "excuses" on al-anon meetings......doesn't fly for me.....surely you can find one somewhere at some time......I want to see a list of all the meetings in your area and the surrounding areas with days and times.........

Not

Hey W2S!

It's time for you to start working on yourself. Let LaLa take care of her issues, let her fight her fights. You've got your own to deal with. Get online and search for Al-Anon meetings, even if you have to attend online sessions, you can still find the help you need. You can even find help for your children.

Take the time this week to research Al-Anon...get your own recovery on track. You have got to get your own head straight and healthy so that you stop contributing to the environment that makes toking an OK behavior.

You spent time defending LaLa today...STOP IT!!! Focus on you. Get the advice and help YOU need.

Get it together man!

Houston.......we have a problem!!!!

OK, LaLa is angry with me because I sought out support and advice secretly to deal with her addiction. She believes it was a breach of openness and honesty. I say that I needed the freaking help after all this time!!!!!!!! She was well aware of how I felt when I began counseling, she just didn't care that it was killing ME!!!!!!

I'm at a total loss...the tension finally lifts and right back to it we go....yeah.

Want2Stay

I'm telling you W2S, you gotta get yourself away from this dance by getting your own head straight. LaLa is in PAIN from peering in that mirror; she hasn't even begun to truly look...stare in that pane... and the easy way out is to go toe to toe with you, cuz she knows you will bite.

Step away from the wayward and get your own help. She has to choose to step up.

Please, define "support", and be specific.

If you were going to an al-anon meeting, that's one thing.
If you were meeting a person one-on-one, and that person is someone LaLa might NOT want privy to her personal demons, she has a point.

Pep makes a really good point. I thought you meant that you reached out to MB to get support.

Openess and Honesty flies out the window when one of the spouses is wayward...and LaLa is still a wayward, even if she is not currently in an affair.

You were well within your rights to seek out help.

IF that help was from a professional source, NOT a personal one, then yes. Sounds like there's more to this...and that W2S may have come here with a preemptive post to try to avoid getting swatted for this.

W2S if you are seeking help from a source that is NOT professional, then you DO need to stop and find a more reliable, objective source.

Edited to add...

Ahhhh, W2S, looks like you are getting help from another board.

Want, I am really sorry about all this. She is misusing the "openness and honesty" concept to hamper your ability to get help from others. The PORH and POJA do not apply in situations like this especially since she is still as wayward as she can be.

Since I knew she would badger you to see your thread on the private board, I temporarily removed your sign in so you couldn't show her even if you wanted. Since she is so upset that you are getting help there I just removed that point of contention altogether.

I completely understand.

want

It does not surprise me that Res is attempting to deflect attention from the work she has ahead of her...not one bit.

I don't even know what to say guys.....I let my guard down a FREAKING INCH AND LALA, THE PERSON THAT SWORE TO LOVE HONOR AND CHERISH ME TIL DEATH DO US PART, STABS ME IN THE FREAKING HEART AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!

I've had enough pain in the last 4 year to LAST ME 10 LIFETIMES!!!!!!! So much for love HUH???????


Want

W2S--

If you feel you cannot carry the burden any longer, you can stop. It is your choice if you do not want to anymore.

Alternatively, you can try once more and give Lala another chance if you wish. Insist on transparency, and so on.

I would take the time to get your personal recovery going. It's going to be tough being in the house with Res while she resists her own recovery.

I feel for you....I remember the resistance I was up against, the remarks I got from the Z when he found out I was in Al-Anon, seeking support, cuz he didn't have a problem

It is nearly impossible to recover a healthy marriage right now, W2S. The alternative is to give up, or get help for yourself, and after some time has past, and some knowledge is gained, make decisions

SL,

She deliberately cut me off from my support system. People that saved my sanity when I was on the brink of a nervous breakdown because she REFUSED TO HELP ME!!! Talk about cruel. I'm not sure what I want at this point......

Want

I understand W2S. I'm so sorry.

W2S - have you found a 12 step anon group? I googled "Nar Anon Online meetings" and got a grundle of choices.

You need a NAR ANON sponsor who will get you focused on YOUR issues. Lala has to deal with her issues and the minute you start getting recovery for yourself, there will be challenges. Expect them. Duck your head and keep working. Don't lovebust. Just leave the room until she calms down.

You've trained her that hissy fits work. You have to untrain her for the sake of your children.

No excuses. Find a Nar Anon meeting and a sponsor tonight! Start working your steps. Stop worrying about hers. She's no longer your problem - she is now her own problem.

I am so sorry to read what has happened W2S. This last part I am familiar with. It really is cruel. The only thing I was ever able to do was just go find another and be very quiet about it. There were not many available but there were friends to help me along the way. Better make a hard plan for yourself to keep your mind occupied and goal oriented. Again, I am sorry to see this happening to you.

W2S

She has only cut off your support if you allow it.

You're absolutely correct BK. Thanks for the support! You are a good friend.

Want

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!

{{{{W2S}}}}

You KNOW my feelings and love for BOTH of you runs deep. I dang near called at 2 am to knock some sense into ya.....BOTH. And while that isn't my "usual" MO (no matter what TMTS says about me..... ), I was there last night......

Now, you best better not be ignoring my previous post to you.....I fully expect some answers.........

{{{{{W2S}}}}}}

Not

Good thing I didn't have your phone number...

I can talk longer than I can type.

I tend to be LOUD, too.

......

Ya well, I tend to talk as well as I spell......

Mark & Not,

Thanks for giving my a chuckle. I needed that today. I'm super slammed at work with a launch date tomorrow. This is a huge client and I need to get it right.

Sorry, I melted down last night guys. I'm just so exhausted from dealing with this stuff.

Want

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{WANT}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} I am so very sorry you are going through this.

W2S I am so sorry for your pain. 3 yrs ago I wished I was in your situation and had a repentant WW. Your position highlights the extreme danger with attempting a R.

At this stage of the game I would strongly advise you to divorce. I am so disgusted with her!

Thank heaven you are not him - that was not helpful to him personally or to his children.

Think before you post, please!

gosh I love me some KA!!!!!!

Some other wise words from KA.....

"If you intersted in a good marriage, you'll work on it when it's convienent. If your committed, you'll except no excuses......"

I always LOVED that one.......

not2fun

What's up W2S??

Hi guys....

Sorry to have gone dark on y'all for a couple of days. I've have been so busy with work that I didn't have time to post not to mention I didn't know what to say. I just came off of about 37 hours straight, wrapping up that big project I mentioned and it went over perfectly. The client was super happy with my work. I need to spend some time with LaLa and recarge my batteries, but I'll be back later with a more indepth post. Thanks for the support!!!!!

Want2Stay

Good to "see" you W2S...Will you please tell LaLa that we were just leaving the Tigers game last night when she tried to call me, and I knew that I'd never be able to hear her in that crowd - When we got home it was pretty late, we were exhausted and I figured you guys might be sleeping...

Tonight I'm in and out, but it would be the best time to try and catch me, because tomorrow night we are going to see ~Adam Lambert~ in concert!!!

Mrs. W

Oh ya Kayla my advice is soooooo bad. Besides I'm entitiled to my opinion. Ever hear the expression "beating a dead horse?"

Yes - you are.

No meeting on Saturday night, Mister?

Mrs. W

Status W2S??

Bumping for W2S and LaLa...what's up?