Well here goes: My wife and I of 21 years have drifted apart to the point she has filed for separation. We could have made every classic mistake of marriage. We worked opposite shifts, we never made time for each other, we never had alone time, we didn't know how to fight (she got nasty and said hurtful things, I sat there and didn't respond), I never communicated with her and told her my feelings, etc. Any time I tried to bring things up, she either threatened me with leaving or suicide, so I never said anything to her for fear of either consequence. My inaction became an action and now we are in the legal system. She started out as a separation, when I wouldn't acknowledge it, she moved it to divorce, and now back to a separation. She is still in the house and I am getting served the paperwork next week. This hit me like a ton of bricks and was an "awakening". I now see the error of my ways and am changing to make myself who I should be. When we had fights before, I did what made her happy for a week or two, just to make her happy, but not because I thought I needed to change, so it never stuck. I now realize how bad I was! She told me about the separation on May 14. On May 27 we went to MC, I thought to work on the marriage. She told the MC that she does not want to save it. I just found out yesterday, that the afternoon of our session she signed the papers moving the separation to a divorce so that session was wasted. I have tried talking to her, but it is all to no avail. She cares about and loves our 2 sons (19 and 16 Y.O.) and me, but she says she is not in love with me and has no feelings, her heart is empty and broken. She says she is busted and can't be fixed. She is walking away with nothing, leaving it all for me so I can continue to support the boys in our house. Since I have woken up and realized how I ignored and hurt her I am devastated. I want to save it but I can't change her mind, nor can I force her to change or stay. So it looks like the separation is moving forward. Is there any chance that we can reconcile after she moves out? I know that unless she can have feelings for me again it is useless, but can she redevelop those feelings? She says she sees the change in me and it hurts her all the more to see it now, instead of before she made up her mind. She refuses to believe that the change and the acceptance of blame is real. What can I do? Will time away give us any chance or is it a death knell?

Scirugby,

Welcome aboard,

I'll try to keep up with you and will write more later.

We would all like to know more about your and your wife..

How long have you been married??

How old are your kids ????

It's a little unusual for a mother to be willing to just walk away from her kids, She may just be at the end of her rope, depressed and seeing no way out except to leave...in which case I would take the threat of suicide seriously and talk with her parents and best friends to figure out an approach to reach her...

The other is she may be having an affair and that will take you snooping to figure it out. Most of us here have an affair were dealing with and so there is a natural reaction to assume that may be the reason your wife is leaving like she is.

Not every marriage brake up involves an affair

On this site are a lot of resources to help you I would start with reading Her Needs His Need, Dr. Harley wrote it

Steve Harley, is a councilor on this site I have used him and he's great he can give you a plan of attack and will work with your wife to help her see their may be hope where she can't see it. I would call him the like is on the home page of this site.

More later SC

I thought I said some of this. We are married 21 years. The boys are 19 and 16. I have read Her Needs/ His Needs for parents, as well as all of his online stuff. That is what is helping me see the light about my behavior and how we screwed up. I am pretty certain there is no affair, although I think she has a slight emotional attachment to her mother's neighbor in Fla. Since that is over 1,000 miles away, and she has only been down there 4 times to drive her mother down and bring her back, she doesn't see him. She does text/talk to him several times a week. She says it's because he went through an ugly divorce and he is trying to help her make it easy for me. Like it could ever be easy! She is willing to walk away and leave everything; she says she will not come back to the neighborhood and will not talk to any one because she is the bad person. She was mentally abused by her mother her whole life and that effects her to this day. My lack of affection and emotion did not help this at all. I know she is going through some bad emotional problems, but she can't see that they can be repaired and she can have feelings again. She is convinced that she is going to spend the rest of her life in a tiny, crappy apartment with no friends and no life. But this is still better than staying with me and trying to rekindle our love and commitment. Realizing I drove her to this level of despair really hurts me. The more I am turning back on my emotions the more it hurts, but I realize that how I was, was no way to go through life; so I have to do this for the better of me and to have any chance of reconciling with her. I could go on about me self-realization of my problems since examining myself for the last month after reading Dr. Harley's stuff. that is leading me to significant, positive change, but doesn't help her, she refuses to believe any of it! BTW I haven't found the post/thread with what all the abbreviations yet, so I am clueless what they mean.

Here are the abbreviations, it helps to print it out to refer to until you get used to them.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1984040#Post1984040

sciruby- Has your wife ever been diagnosed with a mental illness?

She told me as we have been going through this that she has battled depression, but I don't know if she ever went to real counseling. I knew she had problems from the way her mother treated her, but she knew that and I thought that her knowing that would help her deal with the problem. She did see a religious counselor to work on the marriage. All she was told was forgive him, try harder, and be a better wife. The counselor finally agreed with her that she should leave me without ever having talked to me or us together. How's that for a counselor?

Sounds like that was a really horrible counselor. Or else your wife is lying either about what the counselor told her, or what she told the counselor.

The reactions your wife has had sound very extreme...healthy adults do not threaten to kill themselves when their spouse tries to share feelings. Or anytime, for that matter.

If she's talking to this guy she has an 'emotional attachment' to several times a week then you should be taking this very seriously!!!

Lots of red flags going on here with your wife, sciruby!!! But she's conveniently been able to convince you that all the problems are YOUR fault.

Oh, I know that it is not all my fault. She didn't deal with the problems well herself. It is my fault for ignoring her and burying myself in TV and Video games and not having a relationship with her. I just didn't know how to interact with her without a fight arising. I accused her of having an emotional attachment with this other man and she replied he is like 55 and has a girlfriend. It could be all a lie, but how to prove? I doubt if I called her mom she would talk to me, let alone tell me how she was acting around this guy. My son was down there with her for spring break and said that her mother called her a slut for the way she was acting around this guy, but her mother is a psycho.

Well, I sucked it up and called her mother to find out more about OM. She was surprisingly very nice and was rooting for us to work it out. She took no sides. He is 52 and in her words a real cutie. He does have a live-in girlfriend, but he didn't when she was down there. He hit on her the first few days and she told him no and he stopped. Well he must not have, he just got more subtle. He is supposed to be easy to talk to, a real charmer. So my wife got sucked in to his charms. I checked our phone records and found out they have called each other twice this week, one each way and talked to each other for 20 min. each time. Do I confront her with it, or wait for counseling in 2 weeks?

I wouldn't confront her about it just yet...all she will do is downplay it ("he's just a friend") and then she will figure out ways to hide everything from you better.

I would keep track of what you find...are you also looking on her e-mail, Facebook, etc? Does she have time that's unaccounted for during the day or night?

In the meantime keep reading on here as much as you can (especially about affairs, your wife has all the signs) so that once you get some more information through snooping you will be able to come up with a plan.

Time for a little update. I took my younger son to Pittsburgh for an all-star rugby tournament on father's day weekend. It was great for the two of us. My older son had to work. My mother got hurt and had to go to the hospital. My wife was great and called me and kept me abreast of the situation. She even talked to my mother for over an hour! She has been very nice and civil to me for the week. Is this a sign that she may be starting to come around and acknowledge my efforts of change; or am I deluding myself? She did send me a text in response to one of mine that she has forgiven any hurt I caused her and needs time to heal and change herself. But she is still planning on moving out in 2 weeks. How long do I wait before I contact her and continue trying to reconcile. Her mother also said she has been impressed with the changes in me. Does anyone have a success story on reconciliation and how to go about it? Is there a thread here somewhere for reconciliation after a spouse moves out? Thanks all, just writing in does help me through the bad moments.

Hi. I started out in the divorce forum, but I hope I belong over here. You can read my posts there for the background, but I will shorten it here. The day after our anniversary May 13(I gave her a card, she nothing for me) she told me she had a lawyer and filed papers for separation. I did not contact her lawyer, trying to convince her to go to counseling and work on it together. She replied she tried (on her own, without my knowing) and she is empty and is not "in love with me anymore". I tried to convince her. She finally agreed to go to counseling on May 27th. I found out in the session that she does not want to save the marriage. I also recently found out that the same afternoon of our session, she upped the separation to divorce papers because I wouldn't sign the others. I have since talked to her and she is going to drop back down to a separation. The counselor asked some real good questions and suggested I am suffering from depression. that really struck a cord with me. I realized it and and made a huge effort to come out of it. I also read HNHN for parents and found this sight. I have made many changes and my wife notices, she even mentioned it to her mother.(I called to talk to her about us) But she thinks it is an act and I will go back to my old ways. I NEVER want to be like that again! She is planning on moving out the first week of July. I have seen some indications that she is noticing the changes in me, but am I deluding myself and seeing things that aren't there. Once she moves out, how long do I wait before I contact her and what things do I do to keep wooing her and letting her no my changes. Since I got hit with the 2x4 of I don't want to save the marriage and woke up, I realize how much I love her and never showed it in words or actions. I don't want to walk away without giving it everything I can. Help!!

Now, info for why I think I belong here. First of all, I don't see a forum for separation and/or reconciliation. But I also am suspecting my wife of an EA weather affair or attachment I am not sure. The OM is my MIL's neighbor in Fla. We live in NY. My wife drives her mom down there and then stays for a few days. From what I gather this OM is 52 (my wife 47) and quite the charmer according to my MIL. He hit on my wife for the first few days they were down there, but she shut him down and said she was married and he backed off. Since she came back from Fla. they e-mail and text a few times a week. She says that he is helping through the separation and because he got hurt by his ex, he is helping her to make it easier on me. But they talk about his life and what she does and other non-marriage/separation things. He has a live-in girlfriend right now, but this still continues. They have even called and talked to each other for 25 min. phone calls. I am waiting to bring this up in our next counseling session in 1.5 weeks and am gathering info on their contacts. I hope the MC can convince her that this is wrong, but if she doesn't want to save the marriage she may not care. But I have seen some changes in her attitude towards me and I am optimistic that she may come around. If that's the case, she needs to NC him. So that is why I am in this forum. Help/ comments greatly accepted.

Sounds alot like what I went through...my husband was loving the attention he was getting from another women at work and it affected our relationship, because he was getting his emotional needs met by her. How long before it turns to sexual needs? I decided to fight for him, it was worth it to me and definitely for the kids. Besides this site, I checked out divorcebusting.com and talked to a coach there, which was what finally helped to get through to my husband. We are at least working on the relationship together now. I wish you best of luck.

scirugby - I'm sorry you're here. Actually I think the best place for you is over on the Surviving an Affair forum. It is likely that this is an ongoing and current affair. You're not in recovery yet. You need to take action to end this affair.

Luckily SAA is a lot more active and you'll get more help there.

Sorry to shift you around so much

Sounds to me like she's trying to make nice so you won't discover (or make a stink about) why she wants to move out. She may have noticed the changes you've made (don't let up on them!) but she is now intrigued with the stranger in Florida and is wanting to explore that possibility. Her talk about being unhappy (for 21 years?!) is what we call "fog babble."

Do NOT confront her just yet--SNOOP and see if they are emailing or texting. Those phone calls MEAN SOMETHING. He is NOT "just a friend." She has developed feeling for and is, at the very least, having an emotional affair with this guy. You must find out the extent of their involvement. Print out any emails you find between them and put them in a safe place. Your job now is reconnaissance. Bring back what you find.

If you've not yet read Surviving An Affair, get it quick. If you can't find it locally, you can get it inexpensively via the bookstore link on the home page.

And, hey, hit the "Notify" button at the lower left of the message box and ask the moderators to combine your threads from this forum and the recovery forum...ideally on the Surviving An Affair forum. You are neither divorcing nor recovering at this point--you are trying to break up her affair with this guy!

I'm sorry you find yourself in this spot, but you've come to the absolute best place to get help.

I just responded on your thread in the Divorced/Divorcing forum. Suggested you get this thread and that one to the Surviving An Affair forum. You are not dealing with Divorce (yet) and you're certainly not in recovery.

Trust me. You'll get the most help on the Surviving An Affair thread.

And take heart--far worse cases than yours have been resolved happily using the Marriage Builder program. It's just gonna be a loooong ride.

Well, I started there because she filed the divorce papers. I came here because I saw no forum for separation/reconciliation. I wasn't sure what she is doing is an affair, after all, they live 1,000 miles apart. I am becoming more convinced it is an EA, but she doesn't see it that way. Maybe you are right and I will cut and paste everything over to SAA. Just trying to figure out what to do to save out marriage and a timetable for things after she leaves. I just found out she is moving out next week. Unfortunately the church she belongs to supports her wholly on her divorce of me, whatever makes her stronger and closer to god. GO figure.

Hi. I started out in the divorce forum, then posted on the recovering forum and told I belong here. I am going to cut and paste posts from both, so be patient if some is redundant. You can read my posts there for the background, but I will shorten it here. The day after our anniversary May 13(I gave her a card, she nothing for me) she told me she had a lawyer and filed papers for separation. I did not contact her lawyer, trying to convince her to go to counseling and work on it together. She replied she tried (on her own, without my knowing) and she is empty and is not "in love with me anymore". I tried to convince her. She finally agreed to go to counseling on May 27th. I found out in the session that she does not want to save the marriage. I also recently found out that the same afternoon of our session, she upped the separation to divorce papers because I wouldn't sign the others. I have since talked to her and she is going to drop back down to a separation. The counselor asked some real good questions and suggested I am suffering from depression. that really struck a cord with me. I realized it and and made a huge effort to come out of it. I also read HNHN for parents and found this sight. I have made many changes and my wife notices, she even mentioned it to her mother.(I called to talk to her about us) But she thinks it is an act and I will go back to my old ways. I NEVER want to be like that again! She is planning on moving out the first week of July. I have seen some indications that she is noticing the changes in me, but am I deluding myself and seeing things that aren't there. Once she moves out, how long do I wait before I contact her and what things do I do to keep wooing her and letting her no my changes. Since I got hit with the 2x4 of I don't want to save the marriage and woke up, I realize how much I love her and never showed it in words or actions. I don't want to walk away without giving it everything I can. Help!!

Now, info for why I think I belong here. First of all, I don't see a forum for separation and/or reconciliation. But I also am suspecting my wife of an EA weather affair or attachment I am not sure. The OM is my MIL's neighbor in Fla. We live in NY. My wife drives her mom down there and then stays for a few days. From what I gather this OM is 52 (my wife 47) and quite the charmer according to my MIL. He hit on my wife for the first few days they were down there, but she shut him down and said she was married and he backed off. Since she came back from Fla. they e-mail and text a few times a week. She says that he is helping through the separation and because he got hurt by his ex, he is helping her to make it easier on me. But they talk about his life and what she does and other non-marriage/separation things. He has a live-in girlfriend right now, but this still continues. They have even called and talked to each other for 25 min. phone calls. I am waiting to bring this up in our next counseling session in 1.5 weeks and am gathering info on their contacts. I hope the MC can convince her that this is wrong, but if she doesn't want to save the marriage she may not care. But I have seen some changes in her attitude towards me and I am optimistic that she may come around. If that's the case, she needs to NC him. So that is why I am in this forum. Help/ comments greatly accepted.

Hi scirugby, welcome to Marriage Builders, sorry you are here.

I would not mention the OM to anyone yet. Instead go download a keylogger at spectorpro.com and put it on her computer. If she has a laptop and takes it with her, install eblaster.

How else does she talk to him? Does she talk on the landline? Her phone? If the landline, I would put a tap [Radio Shack] on the phone.

The first thing you must do is find out exactly what is going on with this guy. If this is an affair, you must find it out because the tactics will be completely different.

So, please find out what they are talking about, make copies of anything you find, hide it, and then come back here and tell us what you find. We will give you the next steps.

I am sorry you are here but welcome to MB.
I want you to open your mind to the possibility that this went PA. If she is spent time down there without you and now that she is back, she is suddenly trying to file for D, this is a big


Forget the MC. You need Plan A pronto. Read up all the articles here. First in your list of priorities is snooping. If she is having long conversations with him, install a VAR pronto in her car or wherever these convos are taking place (bedroom, etc). Second is avoiding Lovebusters. Third is meeting her ENs. Start taking care of yourself, get some new clothes, a new haircut, finish up projects around the house that you know she would like.

Most important is to start snooping. You need proof of what exactly is going on so that you can prepare for exposure (your best tool for busting up the A!).

Hang in there!

Oops, Melody already posted while I was writing. The best advice I can give you is to open a dialogue with her and do what she tells you ~ she knows her stuff!

Threads have been merged...

I have downloaded her e-mails to him and forwarded their texts to my cell. I started doing this a week ago. They start out innocent enough. He was running a race down there and she is a coach and was giving him tips for a few weeks. From there it went into personal things about what she is doing/he is doing etc. He has made some racy comments about her with nothing on under a raincoat and how nice that would be. She texted him a happy father's day, but not me. she is texting him her plans to move out and how she is getting furniture. She has not tried to hide her move out plans from me, but to tell someone else hurts. They send a series of 5-6 texts messages every other day to every 3 days, usually innocent stuff about how he is recovering from the race and so on, but some questions and comments about what they are doing etc. When I first accused her of this about a month ago, she said he is a friend helping her through this because he was through it. She has been friendlier to me, even calling me and telling me about her day. This could just be a front to keep things calm until she moves out. She is moving Next Thurs. to an apartment in the complex she is a manager for and I want some help on how to proceed to keep our marriage alive. Thanks!

have you read the anatomy of an affair thread?

take a look at it. it might be educational for you.

ok, I don't see anything in there that leads me to believe this is an affair.

Do you believe she is in an affair, scrigby?

This is completely inappropriate for a man to say to a married woman.

To me, this is also a . Has she sent you Father's Day cards/messages in the past?

This smacks to me 100% that this is at least an EA. As a runner, there isn't a whole lot of "race recovery" that needs discussing. Did he injure himself racing?

Ok, so I feel that this is inappropriate if not an emotional affair. He did get hurt in the race. It was some sort of endurance race through the Florida swamp. From reading the texts he also had some problems running afterward. It is more of a how is the injury thing when they text about other things. She has always given me a father's day card and gift before. But remember we are separating in 1 week (2 on father's day) so maybe she didn't feel right getting me one. But texting him real bugged me. She texts about his sons and other personal things. She doesn't use his name in e-mails or texts, but calls him Mulch or Forest, because she met him when he helped her carry mulch to my MIL's mobile and he runs a lot so the nickname Forest Gump. She even removed his name as a recognition from her phone so only the number comes up.

Okay, we just had another ugly fight. She wanted to sit down and talk about what she could take with her and it deteriorated from there. I am trying to be kind and show her affection and do little things, but she takes them all the wrong way. She is mad that I am doing them now but wouldn't for all our years of marriage. I did, but not in the last 5 at least. She also can't understand nor believe that I can change "overnight". I explained that it was an "awakening" or as someone said a "finding Jesus moment". Whatever it was, it was sudden; I think it was just me finally hitting rock bottom and realizing that I was losing all that mattered to me. I just know what I should be doing and realized how little of it I did before. What is it called and is this normal to just wake up? I think it was also realizing when the MC said I was depressed, that I was and I need to get out of it. It has been a big change in my attitude, feelings, and behavior. I like it, and realize that it is something I have to do for me and my boys, and if it doesn't change her feelings for me so be it. But I wish upon everything that she could change her heart and give it a try. My head says that her moving out is needed and she needs time away to heal. My heart says life is over and there is no chance. I know from reading a lot on MB this is normal, but it SUCKS!!!

Trust your instincts. They are usually right.

Scirugby, of course it's inappropriate behavior! I hate to tell you this, but WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.

You are behaving like so many other betrayed spouses when they first arrive here, and while that's not surprising, it's also unfortunate.

Your wife is behaving 100% like a woman engaged in extramarital "activities." And she gets angry with you when you DON'T GO ALONG WITH IT AND LET HER HAVE HER WAY.

This is Marriage Builders and the forum is "Surviving an Affair." It's not "Divorce Central." It's not too late to save your marriage, but the clock IS ticking...

Read everything you can on this site. The good Dr. Harley has made much of his philosophy available for FREE. Start with the red outlined box on the right labeled "Most Popular Links." Also check out the "Articles" tab on the top of the page.

There are some awesome books, too. You can find most of them in your public library, your local bookstore, online, or here on the site. You should get and read "Surviving An Affair" and I'd also recommend "His Needs Her Needs" and "Love Busters."

Well? What are you waiting for?

Okay, I blew it. She came back from walking dog and I tried to talk to he about possessions she can take. She said she wouldn't take anything; so I started naming things she could take trying to open the dialog. She then got mad and wanted to know why I didn't offer x,y,z; didn't she deserve the good stuff. I said I though you told me you were leaving it for the boys to keep their normal house. From there we got into the same old argument. I accused her of the emotional affair and even suggested that he helped make up her mind. She said she had made it up long before she met him. I have done some really uncaring things the last few years, more detail if you think it helps. The one last summer was the final straw she said. After a long argument (2 hrs.) the only good I got out of it was that even though I say she can feel love for me again, she says she can't RIGHT NOW. So maybe she can if she can see the new me staying and being permanent. Yea, maybe I am grasping at straws and hoping, but maybe time separated might give her a chance to heal. I wish I could get her to read some Harley and get on this site. I might give her the books and the e-books from Baucom when she leaves. Hope she will read them. I need to call the MC because when we made the appt. she didn't have a job and now she does and can't make it. Need to see if he can do an evening appt. or we need to find someone else, but they are hard to find in Buffalo without a 3-5 month waiting period. This new me with feelings and emotions is making this process very painful. I almost wish I hadn't woken up and this wouldn't feel so bad, but I don't ever want to be that way again!

Where do you find the article on Plan A Plan B? I have been looking and cannot find the original article.

Here is a link to a thread I created for newly betrayed spouses to help guide them in the beginning. Read through ALL of the links and then read some more.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2370240#Post2370240

Is there any way you can get her to NOT move out? Separating sets the stage for them to more easily escalate into a full blown affair and in my opinion, it hurts chances for recovery rather than helps it. Avoid lovebusters and really study up on your Plan A! How can they see your plan A in action if they don't see you?

Okay, after last night I'm not sure if this is an emotional affair. Maybe she has me baffled and convinced, maybe she really isn't having one. But we had another serious talk among the fighting. If this is not an EA, and she is leaving from loss of love/emotion, WHAT DO I DO NOW? Dr. Harley says a separation is always a bad thing. How do I go about still trying to repair the marriage when we are not under the same house?

Kayc, I have tried to get her to stay. I am aware of the slippery slope it is to divorce. I didn't agree to the separation trying to get her to work on it and she escalated it to divorce. She has now agreed to back it down to a legal separation again. She has seen changes in me and even commented on them to her mother. But to me she says it hurts even more to see me do this now and be the perfect husband when I couldn't do this all along. Her move out day is next Thurs.

It's an EA. At least. He is not helping her to help you - if he were he would be leaving a married woman alone.

Disgustedandsad,
I agree he is not helping. He is giving her attention and flirting with her. She may not realize it, but because she has had not attachment/emotion/attention from me, she is eating it up. I don't think she is doing it intentionally, she is just starved for someone to give her attention. I know my lack of attention screwed this up, but since I have "woke up" and realized what a jerk I was, I am trying hard, but she says it is too late. She says she doesn't want to try anymore.

Is she ready not to see your children EVERY DAY?

She says she regrets it, but that she can't stay with me in a emotionless marriage. She would rather be alone in a tiny apartment than try and make it work. She is so afraid that the changes she sees are an act by me and I will revert once she stays. I can't convince her of this, only time can. I'm just afraid that she will stop seeing my change and effort once she leaves. She thinks that she can make meals and bring them over, doesn't seem like she gets the whole separated couple thing. That is why I still have hope for a reconciliation. For now we are keeping some things joint and not separating everything.

Okay, with the move-out day less than a week away, I want to make a killer plan A. Can anyone give me tips how to do it when there is no OM in the picture, at least not PA and in a 1,000 mile radius. I am a teacher and have most of the summer off.

I am planning on doing a lot of work on the house and continue to work on me. What can I do to get her to see it? If she could believe the changes in me, I know she would come back.

How long after she leaves before I contact her?

Thanks for all the help!!!

I need to leave right now for a few hours but when I come back I will read your thread and help you as best I can, okay?

WHY?? I would separate your finances NOW! If she wants to live a single life and cheat on you, then by all means, separate your finances!

DO NOT PAY FOR ANYTHING!!

The only reason why she is moving away, is so she can talk to her new b/f with out feeling the guilt of you being there, understand?

Also he is probably planning on visiting her, and so therefore she decides to have her OWN place so he can stay with her.

Is that what you want?

To help her pay for her A??

I understand you are in plan A, but I'm sorry paying for everything or half the stuff WONT BRING HER BACK!! Why would she come back when she has everything she wants? A single life and a husband to pay FOR IT!!??

Sorry to be blunt, but I see all over your WIFE!!

scirugby,

Read the first couple of pages on the musings thread linked in my sig line and be sure you have read the posts on Plan A that Scotty posted to you on the first page of this thread. Look at the whole thread for the newly betrayed and not just the links in the first few posts.

There are two sides to Plan A. Assuming your goal is to win your wife back and restore your marriage and rebuild it into something that will satisfy both of you, you need to not only apply the carrot side of Plan A but also the Stick side of the process.

Your vision needs to be to make returning to you more profitable in every way than to scrap your marriage and move on to take a chance with OM. To that end, the learning to meet her emotional needs and avoiding love busters removes complaints she may have about being neglected, being hurt by things you might have done in the past and shows her what you are capable of a a marriage partner.

The flip side of that is to make continuing the affair as hard as possible. If she feels like she can keep you on a string, paying her way so that she can test the waters with OM for a while and still know that you will be there when she gets tired of the reality that is sure to set in when the fantasy starts to wear off, then she will string you along indefinitely while she tries to decide between you.

By paying her way you are making it easier for her to do this. She will take your support, including anything you wish to give her in the way of emotional needs and still continue along the road to the dismantling of your marriage so that her fantasy can become true. OM likely can't actually provide for all of her ENs and is probably not financially able to provide for her need for domestic support as well as you to begin with and might even have other financial obligations that will make keeping her in a life she has been accustomed to for very long.

If you remove the financial support, it will expose him to having to meet this need for her as well and if at the same time you meet her other ENs, it will demonstrate to her that you are capable of providing for her everything she desires from a relationship. It will also make it apparent more rapidly that OM is only able to actually provide a portion of what she needs and so will hasten the demise of the affair.

Focus on this one aspect of Plan A. You want to make married to you look better than being on her own to pursue a relationship with OM. To that end, make yourself more attractive by becoming better at providing for her emotional needs and at the same time make continuing the affair fantasy in its current fantasy state more difficult. It will be the reality that starts to set in that will turn her heart back toward the possibilities with you, so the sooner she is forced to abandon the fantasy relationship and face the real world of divorce, living on her own and getting nothing from you, the quicker she will begin to have the epiphany she needs to blow away the fog of the affair.

She is comparing the resentments of the past to some fantasy world where she and OM will live in perfect relationship that does not exist in reality. Remove the reasons for the resentments of the past and make the reality of a real life day to day relationship. Begin making the reality of what she is doing start to appear by making her and OM finance their own love nest but continue showing her support by meeting her other ENs as much as she allows.

Mark

Rugby:

I am going to give you two threads to read:

TBC's Thread

And:
SickofLimbo's Thread

And I am going to make a recommendation to you.

If she is agreeing to "give you everything" Then get it in writing, get it agreed to, and then let her MOVE OUT.

Because one of two things will happen. If she returns, and recognizes your improved manner, you recover your marriage the MB way. And the agreement doesn't matter.

The second is that she leaves you and you end up divorced. And if she has already signed a seperation agreement giving up the house, the boys, the cash, the goods, no alimony, and other things, than, your in good shape, and not haggling about this after the fact.

Can you save your marriage? Yes. This site saved mine.

Should you kowtow to a Wayward Wife? No.

She will pull her head out of her butt, and when she does, she will be wanting to take you to the cleaners. Right NOW, you should press your advantage as much as possible.

Get the signed agreement, then Plan A your butt off. Try to prevent her moving out.

She asks you: "Why didn't you act this way YEARS ago?" just ask her "Why did YOU start acting this WAY? If your capable of that much change in that short amount of time, so am I"

Sorry you have to be here.

LG

Okay, you are getting some great help from the big guns here....The advice they are giving is spot on.

Mark1952, I am so glad to see you here! I felt like calling in some enlistments! I feel he is in good hands now. I also agree that she shouldn't get to feel she has the best of both worlds in the separation...she needs to get the idea of what she will lose if she loses her husband, that it's one way or the other, can't have it all. The needs he meets for her, taking care of the home, financial support, someone to lean on in tough times, a whole family, all of those things are things she needs to think about and consider. Meanwhile, she has a ready made husband willing to be the man of her dreams...where else is she going to find that? The other men she meets are fantasies, not based in reality, they all have their own problems, things she has yet to discover...but they will not turn out to be Prince Charming, only the one she has that loves her and WANTS to meet her needs can be that.

Mark, please help this guy through the steps of how to handle this separation in a way to redeem the marriage.

Lousy Golfer, very good point!

Is it at all possible to get a counseling session with the Harleys?

Okay, the only thing joint is our cell phone service. It's in her name, for all of us. So I am paying the bill for her extra line for 10$ a month. She opened her own bank account, and I am going to remove her from our joint account. She has her own credit card and I am making sure she is off the joint/ get a new card.

She is still on my health insurance because we are still married.

My lawyer is serving me with the papers tomorrow and then we will start the official negotiations for division of assets. I am letting her take her possessions from the house for her apartment, they are hers. Other than that she is on her own.

I have tried to get her to stay. I know we're not supposed to beg or use the kids as a tool. But she says she hurts so much if she doesn't go, she will kill herself. Yes, I know that is unstable, but she suffered (still going on) mental abuse from her mother her whole life and she has low self esteem and is always thinking the worst. That's where my support and love and meeting her ENs all these years could have helped heal her. Her father died 4 years into our marriage, and mine 5, so I had no role model on how to be a good husband and treat her right; that is until I read Dr. Harley and came to this site. I wish I had years ago!

KC,
Would the counseling session with the Harleys be for me alone, or both of us. So far she refuses to consider working on the marriage. We are seeing a MC on July 6th, after she moves out, but she says that is just to help me deal with her leaving. I'm hoping her can convince her to try. I'm planning on bringing up the EA with the proof of the texts and e-mails, and phone calls. If he can convince her it is an EA, then maybe we can move forward.

Hey scirugby,

I will speed post here.......

One, do NOT let her know your snooping techniques. It will only force her to go through other channels. (Not sure if your surveillance is still good after she moves out.....)

Two, your MC session will probably be a waste of time. She's probably just doing it to say that she "tried", but won't exhibit any real effort. It will probably be predominently a "scirugby was a scourge of the planet and this marriage" type of dialogue. I know from experience.

Three, your sitch is similar to mine in many respects. Mrs. scirugby is leaving to make herself more available. It seems pretty clear to me. Again, I know from experience. I dealt with an EA that went PA shortly after she moved out.

Four, Plan A isn't necessarily about being a better person and then talking about it or justifying it. It's just doing it. She'll notice. If she wants to give you the business about doing it NOW (as opposed to all those years ago), just say something like, "there's never a bad time to make positive changes in ouselves". And then move on. Don't get sucked into debates about it.

Five, stay away from the serious discussions. They are draining, you won't accomplish anything positive, and she won't hear you anyways -- it will all come through as "blah, blah, blah." Listen to me on this one, because I had some difficulty in this area. I'd play it cool, but if I was goaded, or prodded into getting into it, I had no problem mixing it up.

Six, plan A after separation is tough. I can help you with how to come up with ideas that might be effective. Helping her move is NOT one example of plan A activities.

Seven, a lot of what you've heard from her is standard stuff. Don't get rattled by any of it. It's almost as if the WS receives a script in the mail, and it contains all of the key catch phrases and foggy babble.

I think that's about it for now.

Hang in there. There's a lot of really awesome people on here, and if you need 'em, they'll be there....

TBC

Sci,

Listen, you don't have to convince her she is in love with someone else, she already knows that. What she doesn't realize is that it is THAT relationship that is pulling her away from a marriage of 21 years!

Counseling with Steve Harley would be a great opportunity for YOU to get a serious PLAN to fight this affair. He can give you ideas of what to say, how to say it and when to back off as opposed to pressing in to try to save your marriage.

A mistake many make, and not saying this is what you are doing, only that it is a mistake I have seen too often, is that men tend to try to save their marriage by fixing it. The reality is that until you save it, there will be nothing to fix. trying to fix it before you save it will result in neither being accomplished.

Your wife is not your enemy in this. In reality, neither is OM. Your enemy is the affair itself. The person she is in love with is not even a real person but solely a fantasy. You have to fight that fantasy and not her will to leave.

Demonstrate your ability and willingness to adapt, change and remove those things that have caused resentment in the past and show her how you can meet her emotional needs now and in the future.

Who knows what is really going on, besides you, her and POSOM?

Who have you exposed this to?

Do you know anyone who has influence with her that can tell her to get her head out of her butt and be the wife and mother she is supposed to be? Is there a pastor or close friend or couple that she respects that would be dumbfounded by what she is doing? THAT is who needs to know what is going on right now.

Things you need to do to fight the affair are not just things that you do to try to make her happy. Some of what needs to happen will make her so mad at you that you won't even believe that she is capable of responding like that. Expect it and ignore it. Your marriage can survive her being angry at you but it cannot survive her affair.

Side note to KC: I don't have the hours in the day I once had to sit here and guide folks like I did during my own recovery process. And as much as I appreciate the vote of confidence, I am but a layman, have no degree in anything and am really only a guy who cares about marriages and trying to prevent others from screwing up their lives like we did if at all possible.

The real experts can be found at the coaching center...

Sci, another thing you need to understand is that if you want to save your marriage, you need to have a PLAN that you can follow no matter what she does or says. You need to be acting and not reacting to her every emotional response. Identify her top ENs and get rid of all Love Busters from your interactions with her. Meet her ENs and kill LBs. That's the focus of Plan A. Don't do it when it is convenient, do it all the time in every way you can think of.

She fell in love with you once and she can fall in love with you again. Figure out who it is she fell in love with over 21 years ago and BECOME that guy once more. Do the little things you did for her then. THOSE are the things that meet her ENs.

But also think back, to a time before this affair and try to remember the complaints she had that point to an unmet EN or a Love Buster you might have been doing without thinking about it all the time. THOSE are a great way to determine what you need to be doing as well.

Win or lose in this war, Sci, it will be the hardest thing you ever have to do in your life and no matter the outcome, you will come out the other side whole, strong and better than before if you put in the effort to do what you need to do to save and restore your marriage. Your boys will see what a father needs to do to protect and save his family and respect you even more than they did when they were that age when it was all about "My Daddy says..."

THAT is what you are fighting for, Sci, your family...

Mark

If you can't get her to go to counseling with you, I would start alone.

TBC and everyone:
Thank you for the help! TBC I am already following most of what you suggest. I am not helping her move, I only offered to do something with my younger son while she is moving. I think I can partially snoop after she leaves. We have a joint cell phone plan that will continue, so I can log on to verizon and see who her calls and texts are too, just won't know the contents.

TBC,
The serious discussion one has been bad for me. I can't help it, we end up getting into a couple a week, sometimes for hours; but not always in a calm tone. However, there seems to be some good from them because we are talking more and having more serious talks than we have in years. So in one way it is helping her to see the change and for me to meet her EN.

TBC,
Lastly I would love some ideas to continue Plan A after she moves and meet her EN and woo her again.

Mark,
I am trying hard to fix myself and not trying to fix the marriage or her. I have not asked her to stay and work on it for a few weeks; a long time considering she only told me she was leaving 6 weeks ago. I have called her one brother and mother and told them, her mother just thinks it innocent and not really an attachment. I then told her some of the things in the texts and she said that is not right. She plans on breaking off all contact with our neighbors and friends so telling them won't help, but I am going to do it anyways.

Mark,
As for a pastor or church members, they are supporting her. She belongs to a Wesleyan church, which has a large born-again following. The believe that anything that makes you stronger and closer to god is okay, even over the sanctity of marriage. She says she went to a counselor at church to help her for the last 2 years and this woman eventually agreed to her desire to leave me, without EVER talking to me!!! She still calls her and supports her! She has had prayer sessions after church with members to help her be strong and get through this! I have tried calling this church counselor and have not been able to get a hold of her. If I can convince these people of my changes and desire to make her happy, they can be a strong influence on her. Her EA didn't start until after she decided to leave me. She changed her Facebook status to "It's Complicated" in Feb. before she went down to Fla. and met this guy.

In fact I called her in Fla. and called her on it and she told me. She agreed to go to counseling but I had too many things on my plate and did not make it my number one priority (yes, I was an [censored]) right away and thought I had some time to find a good counselor. I didn't know she was giving me a time limit!

Rugby (I may take LG's suggested abbreviated name....):

If you have a week left, think of this time as giving her a last glimpse of the new and improved Rugby. One important aspect of Plan A is for Mrs. Rugby to get a real contrast between that new and improved Rugby she has NOW while living at home versus the disappearing Rugby she will have at some point AFTER moveout day.

Don't look at doing a plan A activity and then expecting to see if "it worked". Just do it. And then move on to the next opportunity. Don't get all smothering and stalker-esque, but DO realize that after she moves out, the opportunities will dwindle significantly.

Like everyone, I did certain things well, while others not as well. Without tooting my own horn too much, one of my strengths was taking care of my side of the fence. And I was very open and honest on this board about it. (Um, maybe a bit TOO open and honest, but we don't need to get into that right now....) Anyways, because I was open about it HERE, others validated my efforts. And that was good, because when I'd get the venom about not doing jack on a personal level, I didn't sweat it because I knew differently.

Glad to hear that you're doing a lot of good things. You may have heard others state that this isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. That race ain't over after she moves out, either. You'll just have to adjust your gameplan, that's all.

TBC

TBC,
Thanks again for the support. I am just doing and not expecting a response. I keep doing more things around the house and thoughtful things for her. I have written her letters telling her my love (handwritten even), and telling her how things are different with me and my love for her. How now that I have woken up and come out of my depression that I love her even more and want to make her happy and grow old with her. Her mother has told me that she is noticing and is impressed, even though she tells me that it makes her more hurt.(maybe second thoughts) Her mother has told me to keep it up and give her time to heal. I hope that works, I'm just afraid once she moves out it's going to be impossible for her to keep noticing.

TBC,
BTW you may shorten it. It has been my screen name forever; two of my favorite things. Maybe a bad choice for this forum, seeing if she finds this board she will recognize my name!

Good job, Rugby....

I would advise coolin' the love talk, though. I'll have to hunt around, but at one point, I had a great list of Do's and Don'ts for the BS. I got it from Marshmallow, I think, but it could've been recycled from someone previous. Anyways, one item was to mellow out on the "I love you" stuff. You can kind of make a WS "head for zee hillz", so to speak, with all of the sappy stuff. Now, I do have a recommendation for a letter to leave for her on move-out day, but we have some time before getting to that point....

Just try to meet her needs as best you can before she moves out. Do the laundry, fold it (correctly if possible), and put it away. Make dinner. Put gas in her car. Listen to her. Yeah, it's hard to think of acting that way when she's moving in a week, but suck it up and realize that you're not going to be doing it indefinitely.

I have thoughts on how to interact after she moves out, but that's kind of cart before the horse, so I'll probably just save it for later....

TBC

Do you go to this church as well? Is there a possible another OM at this church? Have you had a chat with the pastor or leaders of the church? There are certain christian principles and dogmas that are universal in christainity and the Ten Commandments come to mind.

In short is this information provided to you by your wife - if so - its time to get help from this minister or find out the truth of their stance. Methinks it is just a WW lie - not the first WW that thought G-D had given them permission.

TBC,
You hit it dead on. I am doing the laundry and folding it her way; again she is mad that I didn't do it for all these years. I am making dinner, but she is working two jobs to pay for her independence and isn't home till nine most nights; but I make it when she is here. I try to talk to her about her day and stuff, but she clams up and doesn't say much. I am convinced she is trying to ignore all the things so she can stay justified in leaving.

rwinger,
I do go to this church for the typical holidays, I am just not a religious person being a scientist. I have done many things over the years for the church, including building sets for their vacation bible school and Christmas plays. So I do know the people and their programs. They have a number of divorce help classes. As far as the support and prayer session, I know about those from snooping. She receives e-mails like "we support you and give you the strength to get through this", "you are prayed up every day", and "God will help you through these times". I have also seen her responses on facebook to people about the prayer/support circle after services with my wife and her friends. The problem is she has lots of divorced friends who think it is the best thing and are encouraging her to do it because it was so good for them. It makes it real tough for me to compete.

BTW,
If you ever see their website, it is almost scary in their stances and how much the push their beliefs. They try to keep it as one big happy family and not let others into their lives with all the things they do as a church.

TBC,
The other thing she says when I do all this stuff is why are you taking away my jobs, it's stressing me out. I simply explained that in a little while, I have to do it all and I am trying to prepare for that while you are still here to help if I forget something. Was that good or bad?

Let's see other things I am doing to change me:
Since last fall I have lost 43 pounds; 20 in the last 8 weeks. Stress is a wonderful thing!!! (he says ever so sarcastically)

I have started working out again (obviously)

I am walking the dog with her whenever we are home together; something she lamented we never did in the 3 years we've had him.

I am making dinners for her. Tonight her and my other son will both be home at the same time. So I am making dinner and will even attempt to bake a dessert!! Nothing fancy, but the effort counts.

I am complimenting her on her looks; or is that bad because it is touching on the relationship side?

I have dome repairs around the house that she has been asking about for years.

She actually changed in front of me this morning; maybe TMI, but that to me is significant. I complimented her on her looks. We are sleeping in the same room, her on the couch and me in our bed 5 feet away. She was sleeping on the floor in the basement (because she said that's all she deserves, yeah, I know that's a red flag) but I talked her into sleeping upstairs. I even offered her the bed and told her I would take the couch.

Oh, I have also started going to bed at the same time as her and getting up earlier. Part of the new, healthier me. I feel great and like the way I have energy.

You can always change you...but you CAN'T CHANGE HER!!

Are you separating your finances when she leaves?

If you don't then good luck on trying to get her back

Sorry to say...but she WONT!

Already in the works sapphire. Once the separation paperwork is in, she will be removed from all finances. She will be on her own for bills. She is working 2 jobs right now in anticipation of supporting herself.

Sapphire,
If it's too personal say so. As a FWW, what did it take for you to come back? Something I can work on or do after she's gone? Looking for strategies. Thanks

Rugby,

Don't look for a magic bullet or something that you can do that will suddenly turn all of this around because there is no magic involved. This is a process which is why you need a PLAN, something you know you can do no matter what she does.

To that end, concentrate on identifying and learning to meet her emotional needs. I suggest starting with Conversation (with no discussion of hard relationship issues if you can avoid it) and Affection which can often be met a tiny bit at a time with a simple touch, an offer of a foot rub or back rub (keep it strictly meeting her needs and don't try to score, OK?) and things like maybe a bunch of flowers from the local store or something like that. Don't do two dozen roses or anything that is too over the top and do it periodically and not just once and then attempt to judge her reaction. Just do stuff that shows her that you care about her (the key here is SHOW and not talk about it) and that you can and are willing to meet her emotional needs.

Your marriage didn't get to this point overnight and you aren't going to make everything come out fine overnight either. It is a process and not an event. It is a strategy and not a single thing that you can do.

Mark

Mark,
I realize I'm in it for the long haul. As for the affection, she hasn't let me touch her since her announcement in mid-May. By touch I mean even a touch on the shoulder. I gave her flowers once and she complained that she's allergic. I said appreciate the thought and put them on the back porch. I have since given her a silk rose with my last letter.
I am trying to talk to her about her day and things she is doing without being overbearing. I am just looking for more ideas on what little things I can do to show my love, with it being both subtle and effective. It will be especially harder to do once she leaves. Her work is only 15 min. away and her apartment will be 10. I thought about surprising her for lunch at her work. I am a teacher and have most of the summer off so I can meet her.

What about a date either now or after she moves? Nothing overly romantic, maybe coffee or invite over to walk the dog? She loves him and will miss him terribly.

She is actively involved in an affair.

Being nice to her means nothing. You do this Plan A stuff after you uncover the affair.

If the typical spying mechanisms do not work I would hire a detective. She is likely having an affair with a co-worker--------that is usually the 1st place to check. The neighbor guy back home is a possibility, but I put money on a co-worker.

A date is a good idea, but if you ask her to go on a date with you, she will of course refuse.

So what you need to do is to make it a choice she has to make at that very instant as to join you doing something or sit alone while you do it by yourself.

Tell her you were thinking of dinner at whatever place you and she used to go to and ask if she would like to go grab a bite. If she does not want to go along, you go get something though a quiet romantic restaurant isn't necessary at that point.

If you cook, fix her something you know she enjoys and just share the meal. If you can get one or both of the boys to join you so that by refusing to join in she is the only one missing out it can be even better.

Just guessing here, but I would say that your marriage probably became pretty child-centric for a while there and that she often felt like it was up to her to take care of getting them to various places and events.

In marriages where this is the case, when they kids are out of the home or about to leave home, or at least pretty much able to care for themselves, it is not at all uncommon for a wife to feel like her very reason for existence has been eliminated. This can cause her to begin looking at her life and wondering what she has missed. If a guy pays any attention to her at all, suddenly she starts wondering what else she might have missed besides just other guys finding her attractive and things like that.

What happens first is that she falls in love with the idea of some fantasy life that may or may not even be possible. Especially if she is a big fan of things like romantic movies or romance novels and such, she can view feelings as something magical or mystical that just happen to her without her participation. In such a case, she might be in love with the idea of falling in love with someone else rather than actually being in love with someone right now.

The solution can still be to meet her ENs and avoid Love Busters in order to have her fall in love with you again.

Talking to Steve Harley in the coaching center can help you focus your Plan A to enough precision to maximize the results with the effort you can generate. Consider this option. A lot of people here can give advice and some of it can be quite good, but the people who are in Dr Harley's office are the real experts.

Mark

Thanks again all.
Stan, her job started 3 weeks ago, well after her announced plans to leave, so there is no guy there.

Mark, you sound like you have read my wife's mind. Our life became very child-centric; both boys had medical problems and she became a mother bear looking after them. She complained I didn't help enough, but she wouldn't let me, only a mother can take care of sick children don't you know. The oldest graduated last year and the youngest is very independent and doesn't need mom anymore. (or so she feels)

Man, This crap is hard. And LBs suck! The wife started packing up her things today and I found her in the kitchen crying. I asked her if she wanted to walk the dog with me. She said no and to leave her alone. She said this is the hardest thing she ever had to do. Before I could stop myself, I said then don't do it.

She said that she has to. She has seen all the changes and watch me become the perfect husband and do everything in 4 weeks that I didn't do in 10 years and it just makes her hurt more and get more mad. Watching me do them now when if I had done them all along she wouldn't be leaving. She said its great that I can change overnight, but it took her a long time to get to this point and she can't change in one day. That's when I asked her to stay and work on it! My filter must be completely clogged and useless.

I also told her that statistics show that once she leaves, the chance of reconciliation is slim. I need to stop myself. I truly think that if she has time to heal and miss all that she has here with me, she may be willing to give us another try. If I can keep showing her the changes and keep trying to meet her EN and keep wooing her.

Or maybe I'm deluding myself. Please some feedback and support. I'm either going to throw up or curl up into the fetal position. I can't take watching her pack!!!!

Uh-huh. You know what that sounds like to me? Drama Queen. Have you ever heard her threaten to harm herself before? I suspect not. Screw the mental abuse from her mother. Was that ever a factor in your M before?

And did you immediately call this misguided counsellor and let her know what the whole story is? That your W is having an A?

Okay, maybe you could have left off this part. Other than that, your conversations with her have been good.

You've got something OM doesn't have - your sons. And your dog. They will be helpful - she's going to miss them and want to come home. Let her know that the door is open.

MB,
Actually she has said that before in our marriage. That was part of the problem. I was afraid to say anything to her for fear of her harming herself. So I said nothing and never worked on our relationship. The low self-esteem and insecurity has been a problem before as well. She suspects a bad motive for things, thinks that people are being mean to her when in fact that is not the case. Yeah, I know she has issues.

MB,
I have debated this back and forth. I didn't want to turn this woman against my wife and alienate her more and push her into a corner. But I also thought that if I could convince her of my changes being honest and permanent then she could help talk her into it. I have tried calling her twice, both times she did not answer. Next week I'm going to church and look for her. My next step is to talk to some of our mutual church friends and see what I can get for info.

But not for constant visitation. It needs to a be here or leave me alone thing. Otherwise she will appear almost daily to interact with the boys and the dog and even you and then go back off to her romance and single lifestyle.

Mark,
True. I am already getting a sense of this. She has talked about if she uses the crock pot, she will bring over dinner. She talks about us. She even said that the chairs she got for her apartment are a good investment for the boys, like she doesn't plan on needing them forever. I see some signs that she thinks time away to heal will work, but I could be overly optimistic. I just need to make sure she keeps seeing the permanent changes.

Rugby,

In her mind she is planning to have home with you and the boys AND her single life crash pad where she can entertain. She thinks that bringing you dinner and sharing in your lives is enough to allow her access to the home and to you and what you can provide for her. If she moves away, this needs to be exploded very quickly.

She needs to get it pretty soon that leaving to live it up like a single college girl with a new party and a new boy friend every weekend will not allow her to have you around to support her and be there for her when she has nothing more exciting to do. She needs to understand that getting a divorce means losing everything about you and all that you are and represent.

Keep up the Plan A for now, but start setting things up to go darker than a black hole...

Just a guess but I'm putting my money on a new flame at work, perhaps someone who has been a sympathetic ear and perhaps "having trouble" in his own marriage. Something is a lure that is getting her to chase a fantasy, Rugby. Women who decide to walk away usually just walk at some point. They don't talk about a future that includes you. If you are so bad she needs to get away from you why would she want to bring you dinner?

For me, this is a sure sign that she is all foggy and chasing something out of entitlement. Doesn't sound like Florida guy to me...Otherwise she'd be going to Florida. I could be wrong though, so...

SNOOP!

Mark

I think Mark has it close...it could be that she just needs time to heal but this is rare. Even Dr Harley says if one spouse wants a separation there is usually another person in the back ground.

so I will just repeat what has been said...

1.) Plan A like your marriage depends on it because it does.

2.) Start preparing for Plan B = to go in deep darkness = this should be easier since the children are older and will not require any contact during hand offs.

3.) Find out the information from the church, get assistance if they are pro-marriage, what is thier culpability in pushing your wife for separation.

4.) SNOOP - Find out if there is a OM in the picture. Even do a drive by in the late night to find out if there is another vehicle at the apt if possible. Hire a PI if needed. Information is power - we can help further if there is an affair or not - but you need to eliminate this possibility. Another thing - is the Florida OM planning to visit soon - are you sure? Any other males that your wife has mentioned in the past?

Much to do Rugby and the chances are unknown. I personally dont like the idea that she quickly moved to divorce when you didnt respond to separation papers - dont think this is good. Separation might be a trial divorce for her while you are thinking she needs space to heal.

PS - Snooping is not stalking nor is it an invasion of privacy. Snooping is the way to find out what is happening in your life that is unknown to you now. You cant make a good decision without all the information and you have a right to know what is going on in your life.

Mark and TBC if you're still here,
You both said you would give me some pointers on what to say/write to her when she moves. It is only 3 days away and I would like to start composing, so could you give me the pointer please?

Hey Rugby,

I have had a busy weekend and having some company over this evening so I need to fire up the BBQ. I will be more than happy to give you some tips later this evening.

To be highly abridged, the letter should really point out a handful of really great memories of the two of you together. In mine, I acknowledged my sorrow over the significance of the matter at hand (her moving out), and was clear on how wonderful of a friend/wife she had been over the years.

And by the way, Rugby, the crock pot story was great and certainly struck a chord with TBC. Anyone who knows my sitch will understand why.

More later....

Hang in there.

TBC

Hey, Rugby, I just wanted to say I'm really sorry for what you're going through. If it's not too much, would you mind telling me the name of the church and it's location?

Mark,
She says she moved to divorce when I wouldn't sign the separation papers because she felt trapped, the wrong thing I'm supposed to do to her. That she wants to leave so badly, that at this point she hurts so much and is so empty, she saw no other way to get out.

Get a PI or drive by the place odd hours especially at night. Odds are when a W moves out there is an OM. See this here all the time.

Kilted,
The name is the Wesleyan Church of Hamburg, located in Hamburg NY. The website is www.wchamburg.org/ Check out the website extensively, especially the adult link and divorce.
Why do you ask?

Rugby,

Just so you know, TheRoad told me nearly this exact same thing about nine or ten months ago. And it was a dead-on assessment.....

As you approach the move-out day, you're probably dealing with a whole slew of emotions. I know. I was there too, albeit many months ago. (My case is a little different for a few reasons -- one of which is that my kids are a bit younger -- but same general concept....)

TBC

How do you cope with the spouse moving out? As Thurs. approaches, I hurt more and more and can't make it go away. I wish my wife could understand how much I still love her, but I can't tell her for fear of pushing her away more. The stress is good for my diet though! Got to find the silver lining someplace.

Mark and/or TBC,
If I wanted to send you my move-out letter to my WAW for you to look at and make sure I put nothing wrong in it, how can I do it?

Rugby,

If you post it here you run the risk of her finding it if she discovers MB. On the other hand, posting it here will get a multitude of responses and the collective wisdom of people on the forums.

My email is in my sig line, but I don't check that one very often and I stand as much chance of giving you feedback here as I do of trying to analyze it on my own and send a reply.

Part of what makes this place so powerful is the fact that there are so many here from all walks of life and all parts of the world. We have lawyers, counselors, people of all faiths, folks who are Secular Humanists, folks who have been right where you are and maybe even people who live around the block form where you are. Schoolbus is perhaps the best at deciphering and analyzing words, others might be able to rephrase something to make it more powerful because of their writing skills.

The best advice most of us can give you on any of this stuff is to tell you to call Steve Harley and talk to him. He's the expert, we're all just concerned citizens of Marriage Builders. Steve can often tell you exactly the right thing to say when the rest of us draw a blank or worse, try to give you something that we have to make up on the spot.

Just something to consider...

Mark

I don't know if Mrs. Rugby knows about this place, but if she does, better off not posting it here.

TBC was always a transparent guy and posted nearly everything I wrote. There are some wonderful "editors" here so they would most certainly provide input in a very considerate fashion.

That being said, I have to be a bit more abridged in what I post. (It's a long story.) I interact with a number of folks offline -- if one of them wants to help, they can get it to me and I'd be happy to take a look at it.

Sorry you're struggling. Trust me, I know the feeling and I know it's not fun. You may find it hard to believe, but it does get easier. It just take time. Can't rush it.

TBC

Thanks guys. Talking about it helps tremendously with the pain. That and knowing that others have gone through it and made it out the other side better; some with their spouse beside them. I just hope I am one of those.

This site and the support help a lot. I am becoming addicted to it. Checking it every hour and soaking up as much info as possible. I have to try and find another bookstore, the one near me doesn't have "Not Just friends" or "Surviving an affair". I have read all the articles on the site and HNHN and HNHN for Parents. Anything else I should read. I am going to call and try to set up an appointment for counseling with Dr. Harley ASAP.

I went to the library and borrowed "Fall in Love, Stay in Love," and "Love Busters." Then I bought them from Amazon. They are also well worth the read.

Okay,
you mentioned schoolbus. Who is this and how do I contact him/her? I think that I don't want to post it; I would get more advice, but if she finds this site it could screw me. I never though of that and used my e-mail address as my member name. It would be easy for her to find my thread. Is there a way to change my member name?

Notify the moderators at the bottom of the thread and ask them. They will help you out. I had to change my name too. I used a login name that I used to use on a chatline that WH and I used to frequent and if you googled it, you would find me. When you goole your name, it is on the first page right now, unfortunately. It was suggested to me to pick a name that would be too common to find quickly. That's how I got Scotland(thanx Sugarcane. )

BTW, schoolbus is a member here that is AMAZING. I don't know how you would contact her and how often she frequents the boards. Hopefully she will come along and give you some help.

To make the change that you mentioned, go to 'My Stuff' and select 'Edit Profile'. You can change your Screen Name there.....

Sometimes getting a hold of one specific person can be a challenge, so you may have more luck soliciting from a larger pool of folks who are available right now. If I recall, you only have a couple days to get your letter finalized. Not my place to tell you how to handle, but time seems to be of the essence....

Is it written?

TBC

It is written. It is one paragraph. I didn't know if it should be longer. It mentions the good times we had in our marriage. I apologize for my depression and not giving her the attention she deserved. My continuing and strengthened love for her, and that if she ever needs to talk and wants to come back I am here. Too much, not enough, or what else should I add?

Please post the entire letter so it can be edited by some of the vets, who are good at this sort of thing.

You are not supposed to apologize for being depressed.

Personally, I'd go longer than a paragraph, but then again, I can be a bit a filibuster from time to time.....

I'd say edit real names and post away. KR and I will edit. Well, she'll edit, I'll get her coffee....

TBC

Changed name, hopefully that hides discovery. Will post and get advice.

I used the SAA version of the Plan B letter almost verbatim. It was funny that the vets even had corrections for that.

You will get a lot more help if you post it.

Now I've got to come up with a new name. Too bad LG's not wandering the halls since I stole the last abbreviated name from him.

Hey, what about A-Wok? Too obnoxious?

TBC

Here is the letter with specific giveaway names and places deleted. Tear apart and suggest away.

Wife,
You are the love of my life. As this chapter closes on us, please remember all the good we have had in our lives together. The trips to Long Island, the times with (friends names here). Remember the walks in (park near house). Remember all our trips going antique hunting. All of the drives we took. Remember the great times in Florida and going to all the attractions and watching the boys enjoy our time together. Remember the fun as a family and watching the boys grow up and become special people. I am sorry for the way I ignored your needs. Please know that since I have gotten help, my love has re-awoke, I have examined my feelings, and I love you more than ever. I know where we went wrong and I am positive that we can fix the problems with help and work. Know that the door will always be open for you to come back and for us to make a happy, fulfilling marriage and life, and be the couple we once were, and better. Please don�t hesitate to call me if you need to talk and you are lonely, I am here for you, now and forever.

With all my love

As long as it's not wookie. I like stars wars but don't resemble one!

I'm workin' on it, A-Wok.....

TBC

Okay, a few quick comments. One, this is MUCH easier to do when it's for yourself. Two, you haven't been immersed in your storm long enough to be that confident that you know how to navigate through it. Three, it's better to highlight some specific memories and not as much sappy stuff. She'll probably just recoil at the syrupy stuff. And four, if you don't like certain parts of this (or heck, all of it), feel free to toss it into the proverbial trash. I'm just trying to help. And as a word of caution, if you writing style is SIGNIFICANTLY different than this, she may see through it. I hope it helps. And one last thing, I couldn't bring myself to refer to your wife as 'Mrs. A-Wok'. That would have been just rude and obnoxious...

TBC

******************************

Wife,

This is a really tough day for me and probably no easier for you. Considering that we�re heading into unchartered territory, I want to share with you some last thoughts. As this particular chapter closes, I find myself remembering a lot the good times that we have shared together.

I remember the trips to Long Island, where we XXXXXX. I think about the times with XXX and YYY, when we ZZZ. I can�t forget the many walks in (park near house) and talking about XXX.

I think about all of the drives we took, and I smile when I think about all of our antique hunting excursions -- and that great chandelier that you found for ten dollars!

Remember the great times in Florida, going to Disneyworld, and watching the boys laugh while they rode �The Matterhorn�? The smiles on their faces and the fun we shared as a family will always be very special memories for me. Our boys are growing up to become truly special people.

I am sorry that I didn�t show a greater degree of care and consideration for your needs. Please know that I have learned a lot from this experience and believe we can build something even better going forward. We have come a long ways since we met at XXX nearly YY years ago. I don�t know where we go from here, but please know that you are very special to me, and I will always be thankful for our time together.

Love Always,
A-Wok

I am having a problem with talking about "closing." For me, it just seems to FINAL. This really seems more like a "good-bye forever" letter. If that IS what you are intending, then disregard. I am NOT good with the letters yet. I am working on learning. Neak is AMAZING. So is Schoolbus, MelodyLane, Mark, Jim, and Mr W. I would make sure to get some of their input as well.

You're right, I'm not in this deep enough or expert enough to be this confident, but I thought it would be good to give her the knowledge that I am confident that it will work, with effort. I also thought that if she was missing the syrupy stuff all along, that using it here might help re-enforce my change and willingness to meet her ENs. Thanks for the help. I'll keep reading for more suggestions and put them together. I need to try and get SAA tomorrow and read their letter.

Everyone's a critic.....

There could be more of the "building a better M" stuff, but I just hesitated to go too heavy since he hasn't had enough time to be an expert and have answers to all of the questions.

I do think accentuating the memories and not the sappy stuff is important. My opinion, of course.....

TBC

BTW,
Is it a severe no-no to ask her about the possibility of reconciling after time (no specific length) has passed? Her answer won't effect my own self recovery, but it may help me to steel myself up to the unwanted outcome, or try even harder to become the man she deserves.

TBC, don't take it so personally(j/k), A-wok had it in his original letter as well. It just made me cringe a little to read it.

The closure stuff just seems to go against the point of an MB Plan B letter. It is supposed to be a last love letter. One that tells of the great love and the ability to recover the marriage and have a BETTER more fulfilling marriage in the future.

I am not an expert in the letters either and that was why I chose to go with the SAA letter.

No worries, Scottie.....

If my creativity didn't show w/the letter, at least I get kudos for coming up with the nickname, right??

I don't think he necessarily needs to go to Plan B just because she moved out. Maybe that's why I didn't view (and construct) this letter as a Plan B letter.

TBC

Okay, because I was a little confused about that as well. I was thinking about the fact that it would be too soon for a Plan B letter.

Is this just a remember the time when? Even if it is, I still think that there shouldn't be a "closure" word in there. Transition, separation, etc are all good. The "closure" word just sounds to FINAL to me.

I hope others will help out with whatever kind of letter that is intended. I hope that it turns into the letter that is best suited for your PLAN.

A-W,

Gotta keep a score card around here these days to keep track of who's who...

I wouldn't make any sort of reference of the end of a chapter or anything along those lines. It sounds like a surrender to the idea of the end of the marriage.

Still assuming that she is at least considering another option, even if she hasn't yet jumped on that wagon yet, I would keep it as short as possible. She isn't likely to read much of it and if it is very much more than bout ten sentences total, she will probably toss it.

While admitting your culpability in the state of your marriage is good, don't take the fall for her wanting to leave, especially since I am still convinced she is enamored with someone already and you just haven't discovered who it is yet.

One or two instances that you remember that you KNOW she enjoyed will have more impact that a list of events that may or may not have meant as much to her as they did to you. In fact, if you even bring up something that you enjoyed but she hated, you have reinforced her reasons for leaving.

Be sure you let her know that you know that the two of you can have a great marriage,, one that is better than it ever was before and that you are ready to begin working on such a marriage at once.

Just some thoughts.

Mark

Thanks all, I will re-read all of the suggestions and put together another letter to post up. Hopefully much better. I am more convinced than ever that is is the FLA. POS. They have now sent a series of 4 e-mails each back and forth over the last 2 days. She asks him to go for a walk on the beach because she went down to the lake for the sunset. He says okay if you hold my hand. He then replies something real sappy about each day bringing her closer to what she wants. She then asks to chat and he calls her for 29 min. I'd like to fly down there and wring his neck!!! And her mother won't believe me and says he talks like that to everyone and what is she supposed to do she's lived next door to him for 8 years. Is there anyone in Jupiter FLA. on the forum I can get to pay him a visit and expose him to the trailer park?

Have you hired PI as was suggested here several times?
This affair is escalating and if you do not expose it, your chances will decrease greatly.

Collect the evidence and expose (incl OM-s GF) asap!

I haven't hired a PI, can't afford one. We live paycheck to paycheck. Until this month my wife hadn't worked in 2 years and we lived on my salary. We had our pay frozen for 3 years and no step and have not had a contract/raise in 5 years!

Okay I can't sleep, way too agitated and hurt. Actually, I'm PISSED! When do I expose? Now before she leaves? Right after she leaves? At our counseling session next Tues.? I'd like to wait a few more days. As long as she is still here, I can keep sneaking her phone and forwarding her text messages. I can keep reading her e-mails and Facebook. Once she leaves, that avenue of snooping is gone, but until then I can gather more.

The good news is I have something to actually fight. Her loss of feelings for me and her desire to get away you can't fight well. But a POSOM is something you can fight against. And from reading the statistics, more marriages survive after an affair than after anything else. So in a weird sense I have a fighting chance, even though it is worse.

Any signs that the OM will make a trip to NY soon? Look for that sign in the next few days while snooping. This could very well be the smoking gun.

If thats the case and you discover this EA is going PA - that will be the time to expose to everyone - kids, church , MIL etc - Do it in one big moment.

Remember to snoop - and remain in stealth mode. Run silent when it comes to talking about the OM - stay real frosty.

Ps - there is always a chance - remember you have a plan - your wife is floating one moment to another in fantasy land. Keep it up - much more to do and its still early in the game.

I am committed to blowing this up big time. Next week after counseling, I am going to e-mail the document I put together of all her e-mails and texts to everyone I can think of. I put is all together in a word document and chronologically ordered it. Let everyone read it and see why our marriage ultimately failed. It is going to her mother (she probably won't read it), her brothers, and any of her friends I can get it to. Let them pressure her to stop the nonsense and do what is right!

She took her mother down there in Nov. and stayed for 4 days once they got down there. Then she convinced my younger son to go down in Feb. for winter break, probably so she could see him. While down there she changed her Facebook status to "It's complicated" that is when I called her and we talked about her unhappiness. Then when she came back she probably kept contacting him and that is why she decided to leave me.

She started reading Jimmy Buffet, because that is his lifestyle and she started watching the Stanley cup playoffs and texting him during the games. She never had such a big interest in hockey before. She would go up to our bedroom and watch them, and take her phone with her to text him. I wish I had seen the writing earlier and collected evidence from Feb. or even before until then. But I didn't start until after our counseling session on May 27th, when I woke up and started thinking and putting the facts together. Man was I blind!!!

BTW,
The document is 10 pages of their writings. That should convince people! she even said in the beginning of June when I accused her of the emotional affair (after I read about it here) that she would end all contact with him and the other guy I accused her of (her softball coach). She stopped most contact with the coach, but not with Fla. POS. That's when I knew who she was attached to.

Key exposure targets are your sons. I know from personal experience - the only thing that burned the fog quickly was my sons' intervention.

Mothers do like the idea that their sons may think of them as another slut.

Kind of reminds me of my dad giving me a talk on my first date or prom (cant remember) when he told me to treat my girlfriend well because one day she will be someone's mother. Would you want to know that your mother was treated with respect and care when she was younger. Sounds old school I know but I passed it down to my sons.

I want to mention this before it gets lost in the noise - not recommended to go plan B right when she leaves - wait for a couple of weeks when the newness and novelty wears off and she gets a bit lonely in her small apt. Plan A your butt off for two weeks to frost the cake and then send a letter and go into deep darkness; no contact and no needs are being met by you or family support.

Meanwhile dont expose yet - lets see what the POSOM has up his sleeve. Do not give your intel - stuff it until you get better proof. Drive-bys and visits by your sons will give you some intel. there is more but for now - hold on to your information. there is too much denialibility and you will be painted as a jealous nut/

Your exposure will need to a single nuclear exposure - a surprise to the waywards. Best scenario is to wait until POSOM commits to a visit to NY or just when he arrives. I am betting the temptation is going to be too much and will attempt it. She is leaving to make herself available for him and/or others.

Important to expose this to the church if need be.

Use logic and data as your weapons like any good scientist would

As long as you have proof, exposure is a must. A MUST.

Putting the cart before the horse. Forget that letter you where trying to write a few pages back.

Expose today, now. Do not wait till she leaves. The pressure from exposure may cause this affair to end before she is due to leave.

However I believe this is a PA. WW has been to Florida several times to see OM.

Okay, this is my thinking. I want to wait until next week. Gather as much info as I can until she moves, maybe she will slip and talk about a visit. Plus she is a Swedish redhead, as stubborn as they come. She will not stay, she will move out anyways, she has already paid the rent. I think she needs time away to realize what she is giving up and missing. I think she needs time for people to react to her infidelity. Then if she comes back she will be ready to try. If she never leaves, she'll never really know what she is missing. What are everyone's thoughts?

Plus it gives me time to work on the house and do the things that have irritated her for so long. If she comes back she can see the house as my commitment to the new us.

Okay, so it didn't work out that way. I called the religious counselor and tried to talk to her. She said I should talk to wife and wouldn't talk to me. She hung up on me. I informed her of POS in Fla. I will bet she calls her and tells her of my phone call before I finish typing this. Well let's see what happens.

Just spoke with wife about dog meds, she didn't say anything about counselor yet. Still thing she will call wife before she gets out of work.

A-wok...

Not quite awake yet, my friend.

If you have pages and pages of stuff between WW and OM, then expose this NOW!

Include in your list of people to expose to her friends form church, the pastor, the adviser she has been working with, the MC if you guys have already met with him/her before, her mother, your sons, and anyone else you can think of who would support her all the way to divorce if you are the bad guy she has been painting you to be but would be sorely disappointed to find out she was cheating.

The ONLY weapon you have that can turn the tide is exposure. Use it before the battle is lost and she is entrenched in a lifestyle of trailer parks and sunsets...

You have the bomb. Blow it up!

BTW, OM isn't what you need to fight and neither is WW. You need to fight the affair. The affair is a fantasy and reality is the weapon that destroys it. Remember that as you fight the battle.

You don't have to make OM less attractive, he is already pond scum and proof that Darwin couldn't possibly be right. You don't have to convince your wife she is acting like a love sick school girl, she already knows that and is enjoying it to the hilt.

What you need to do is dispel the idea that she will ever live a fantasy life of fun and games, walking on the beach with OM, who will not be able to support her into her old age and will likely not be able to leave her anything when she is gone. At the same time, she has no history to fall back on with OM and so THAT asset is in your side of the ledger, though you have to overcome the debits on your side to make it of any value (kill the Love Busters whatever they might be).

Make married to YOU a better choice than a fantasy that does not exist by revealing the fantasy for what it is, simply smoke and mirrors with no substance and at the same time demonstrate your value to her by becoming the man of her dreams.

Mark

PS: EXPOSE NOW!

That's what I'm puzzled about - why are you waiting until after some counseling session that is a week away? This is critical! You need to expose this now!

Well, I did expose it to her religious counselor. I am meeting with her friend the softball coach tonight. I am going to a graduation party where more of her church friends are. I am trying to get a hold of her brothers by phone and want to e-mail them the document. I have already told her mother, she just refuses to believe it. Maybe I will send her the document, but I suspect she will just delete. I am not sure about telling my sons. That could really destroy their relationship with her and leave permanent scars.

awoke, you really need to expose to everyone! Not one person here, one person there....just send it all in an email or facebook.....

and with telling your boy's? I really think they need to know the truth, hiding the truth and telling them lies are only going to teach them.....to hide the truth and lie, is that what you want to teach your boys?? I hope not

I know it will devastate your wife, but doing this your boys will feel like adults knowing that you could go to them and tell them what is going on in the marriage, they will feel more important, then just another person to lie to and hide the lies. And I know you don't want that to happen. So they need to know, they don't need to know the details of the conversation, but they do need to know that their mom is having an EA with some other man.

There are threads out there with this same situation, and what I have read they said it was good that their kids knew exactly what was going on, it worked on their behalf.

I'm sorry you are here, but if my kids were old enough (they are only 4 and 2) I would want them to know the truth about my EA's.

You are trickling out your exposure. This could backfire on you. Expose needs to happen all at once. To do it piecemeal or when you run into someone gives the affairees a heads-up on what you're doing and allows them time to spin the exposure.

Your children need to know the truth. And they are more than likely your best exposure targets. That is the exposure that will put the most pressure on your WW.

It should come out to most everyone by the end of the day. I will tell the boys. What do I say to her? Do I still do plan A? Do I still give her the move out letter? Obviously it needs to be completely reworded. Probably won't be on for a few hours. Need to go for a bike ride to release energy and calm down. Riding until exhaustion really helps! And it's great for me improving my physical image for the wife to see what she will be missing!!

You don't need to say anything to her unless she confronts you, then your mantra becomes I am doing whatever is necessary to save and protect our family. She won't buy that and will likely be extremely angry. They ALL react this way. That tells you that you hit a bullseye with your exposure. No matter how angry she gets or how she reacts, you remain cool, calm and collected and stick with you are doing what is necessary to protect your family/marriage. Got it? She will likely spew venom and tell you it's REALLY over now, you've done it now buster, but remember... they ALL say that. It's in the rule book for waywards.

You are not doing this to be vindictive but to kill the affair. Continue your plan A for a couple of weeks and then BAM you go into a deep, dark, Plan B. Your WW thinks that you guys can remain friends once she moves out but that won't be the case. That's called cake-eating. Your Plan B letter will disavow her of that notion.

Remember... your mantra is you are doing whatever is necessary to save your family.

As far as telling the boys, tell them the truth... that mom is having an inappropriate relationship with another man. There is no shame in that for you, the shame will be on her. A heavy dose of reality, I might add.

Good job on the exposure... it needs to be done all at once in one day. Don't back down whatever she says. Okay? We've heard it all. There are former waywards here that will tell you that exposure was the best thing their betrayed spouse did for their marriage.

This is very true, your wife will be VERY ANGRY! These were the words I kept repeating to my husband after he exposed my EA on Facebook....

"I might have ruined the marriage, but YOU ended! I want a Divorce, I never want to see you or speak to you!"

I said this over and over while screaming, and punching him.

GOOD LUCK!

The good news about that though....is we are 5 months in recovery, and I am very very happy that my husband exposed me!

Well I just talked to softball coach. His wife left him 11 years ago and he's been on my side of the fence and knows what it feels like. He didn't say much new, but he had no idea that she was moving out. He also didn't say much when I told him about the affair. He's said he is praying for us and hopes it works out better than it did for him. He did give me some advice that sounds just like the MB philosophy and I told him I am already working on it and he encouraged me to keep going. So it is coming out fully!

Exposure has to happen to everyone and as close to the same time as possible. hold off on Plan B or move out letter. Exposure will bring out the WW chitstorm so hunker down a bit.

Keep up Plan A - and wear teflon bc WW will be angry.

PS - If the church will not assist and support the marriage than I would look into exposing it through its authoritative branch

EXPOSE - EXPOSE - EXPOSE ............. NOW !!!!!!!!

Okay, brothers have been sent an e-mail with the file attached. The [censored] should hit the fan now! I haven't been able to contact him, but her younger brother was against her leaving me. Let's see if he calls me now.

awoken,
Whatever you do, don't compromise doing what you've been told to do here...the temptation is to go halfway but that is sure failure, it's very important you do full exposure, continue plan A, work on departure letter, go into plan B. You cannot let her think she can come and go, cake-eating, as she pleases. She needs to get a full idea of who you are becoming, what she will miss...and then miss it. She needs the bubble burst. Everything you've been told is right on. I am stunned that this church is supporting her leaving you...unless she lied and told them you're abusive or something. Exposure needs to happen to church, work, kids, friends, family EVERYONE. Yes, even work. Don't worry about the outcome, just trust that this works.

Okay, went to graduation party and told more church members about the move out and the affair. These people were not happy with the counselor and they have been through counseling and know what we are going through. They said its good that I am telling people so my side of the story comes out. They won't take sides, they are friends of both of us, but they encouraged me to continue along the same lines I am doing; to improve myself and show her what she will be missing.

When do I tell the wife that I exposed her and POS? Tonight when she comes home?

As I understand it you don't. She will find out on her own.

Okay, I think she knows, or the texts have gotten more intimate and she is paranoid. She erased all of her texts for the day. I know the had to sets of text conversations, one this morning, and one this afternoon. For a total of 10 or 11 texts. All erased.

Is this behavior normal? Today she went shopping and bought me a bunch of new clothes for my new body. I have lost 43 pounds and my clothes are baggy and look crappy. She also offered to go back and buy me a set of pots because she is taking her good ones and they have a good deal on a set of Revereware. Does a WAW do those things the day before she leaves? Does this mean she still has feelings and wants to take care of the boys and I. Or is this just guilt over what she is doing?

Personally I would suspect guilt but better let the pros answer that one for you. Sorry I couldn't be much help there but I am in your corner and hope you come out of this better than before you went into it! I've taken a real interest in your thread, aside from the fact that we're neighbors, just your story in general. Keep up the good fight and make yourself better for yourself. If she wonders about the changes just let her know two people are leaving the old you behind, her and you!!!! After all, if the old you wasn't good enough for her then the old you won't be good enough for anybody therefore the newer and better you for whatever the future may bring.

You may want to read this:

The Basics of Getting a Divorce in New York State
By Todd Thomas
This article is intended for someone looking for basic information on a New York divorce. The following is meant to be a basic guide to the terms and procedure and is not meant to be legal advice. If you have questions about divorce, you should consult an attorney in your area for legal advice.
Divorce is more complicated in New York than in most other states. Almost any week you can open up the newspaper to read of celebrities getting a California or Nevada divorce based on "irreconcilable differences." This is a "no fault" or "non-fault" divorce, where the parties are not claiming anyone did anything wrong, but that they can't remain married due to irresolvable issues. New York, on the other hand, requires fault on behalf of one of the spouses before a New York divorce will be granted. The complaint must allege one of five specific wrongs done by one party against another, as required by New York's Domestic Relations Law.
The most common ground for a divorce is "Cruel and Inhuman Treatment." This sounds very severe, but the phrase is defined so broadly by the courts that it has become almost as default as "irreconcilable differences" has in other states. In other words, it is so broadly defined that any couple wanting a divorce in New York can likely qualify. Specific instances of bad conduct will need to be cited to show it is "unsafe or improper" for the parties to remain married. However, causing arguments, name-calling, refusing intimate contact and many other signs of a failing marriage can qualify as cruel and inhuman treatment.
Many times, the other allegations may be the actual reason a party wants a divorce, but instead cruel and inhuman treatment will be alleged because of specific requirements necessary for the other four allegations. For example, adultery is one of the five grounds for a New York divorce. To plead and prove adultery, a plaintiff must obtain the testimony of someone other than a spouse. The "other man" or "other woman" isn't required to testify, as they have a Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination and adultery (and sodomy, which is relevant in some cases) are still punishable as crimes. As well, adultery isn't grounds for a New York divorce if you've also had sex with someone other than your spouse or if you knew of the adultery and forgave your spouse and resumed marital relations.
Abandonment is the third ground for a New York divorce. This occurs when your spouse has left, without provocation (ie, you didn't tell her to get out, lock him out after a fight, etc) and without your consent and, despite your request to return, has been gone at least a year. Constructive abandonment is a subset of this ground, where a party has refused to have sex with his or her spouse, without any valid reason, for a year. One of the difficulties with this is the timeline required. Within that year, there can't have been one instance of reconciliation or the clock starts running again. Rather than potentially detailing moment by moment transactions, it can be easier to allege months or weeks of absence as inhuman treatment.
The last of the direct allegations of fault against your spouse is imprisonment. If, after you were married, your spouse has gone to jail for three straight years, you can ask for a divorce. However, there is a time limit and if you wait too long, even if your spouse is still in prison, you may not be eligible for a divorce in New York.
The indirect allegation, if it can be called that, is that spouses may request a divorce based on a separation agreement. A separation agreement has many of the same grounds as a divorce, including that the parties cannot reconcile while living under a decree of separation. After a year of living apart, though, the spouses can ask the court to convert the details of the separation agreement into a divorce (often called a conversion divorce.) This is useful where parties wish to have a trial separation before a divorce or, for whatever reason, need more time before a divorce is granted. The parties will resolve their issues by negotiation or other means, then commit the agreement to writing where it is approved by the court.
Procedurally, there are two main types of divorce proceedings in New York. A "contested divorce" is where your spouse fights back. He or she may still want a divorce, but claim it is your fault. The finding of fault can have repercussions in alimony (property called "maintenance" in New York) and sometimes in child custody. In other cases, your spouse may deny the wrongdoing and fight back to remain married, or at least to deny the claims. Contested divorces are noted for being very expensive and occasionally requiring grueling testimony from the parties. In an "uncontested divorce", the same five grounds are still the basis for a split, but the issues are not disputed. It may be as simple as a spouse has moved on to a new partner and agrees the marriage should be terminated. In most cases, however, the uncontested divorce in New York is still a collaborative process. The parties, often through lawyers, will resolve the major issues such as division of the couple's property and custody of any children. One party will then ask the court for a divorce, asking for exactly the resolution already agreed to in advance. The other spouse will then not respond to the court documents, so that the party who asked for the divorce is awarded a default judgment. The result is that a cooperative resolution is reached without intensive or time-consuming litigation. This means that it is used even in cases where the parties may not get along or where the relationship has crumbled to the point the spouses can't be in the same room.
Once you have read this and understand the terms, you should consult a local attorney to determine whether you have the grounds for divorce and for an explanation of costs and the time it will take. For people who want a divorce without using a lawyer, there are numerous self-help guides that provide excellent information on the necessary steps. In either case, your local Supreme Court clerk will have a copy of the necessary forms and the instructions, available for purchase for a small fee. As well, the forms are available on the official New York State Office of Court Administration website, www.nycourts.gov. Review the forms and see what information you will need before you meet with your lawyer or begin the process.
While it would be great if no one needed the above information, I hope this brief article on divorce in New York has been useful. As always, the above information on divorce in New York is intended solely for educational purposes. This is general information and the laws may have changed between the writing of this article and the time you've read it. As well, oversimplification for space purposes means you will need to consult an attorney or at least a current self-help guide before taking any actions. Divorce, especially under New York law, is very complex and proper care must be taken to safeguard your interests.

Here is a revision of the move out letter. It is still in the Plan A format. Feedback please.

Wife,
You are the love of my life. I am sorry that you feel that your leaving was the only option you had. As you leave please remember all the good times we shared and remember the joy we had. Remember the trips to Long Island, scuba diving with A & B, having barbques with C&D, and meeting with E&F when they were in town. Remember the walks in the park, and making love in the gorge, losing your panties, and going back to find them. Remember all our trips going antique hunting. All of the drives we took and talked the whole time. Remember the great times in Florida and going to the aquarium and NASA and the looks of joy on the boys� faces. I am sorry for the way I ignored your needs. Please know that since I have gotten help, my love has re-awoke, I have examined my feelings, and I love you more than ever. I know we made mistakes, but I am positive that we can fix the problems. Know that the door will always be open for you to come back and for us to make a happy, fulfilling marriage and life, one that is better than what we ever had. Please don�t hesitate to call me if you need to talk and you are lonely, I am here for you, now and forever.

With all my love

Is this your plan B letter? I would minimize the relationship talk, she is not going to read the whole thing if it is about you and her only.

Here is a sample one from NewPetals thread. There is also a sample one from the back of SAA.


Dearest WW,

I am so sorry our marriage has come to this. I recognize my part in our relationship that created an environment where you became vulnerable to another woman's attentions.

I have learned to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past, and am constantly working to find better ways to resolve conflict between us. I want to create a new life for both of us that meets both our needs and creates a loving home for our children. But we cannot do that until you end all contact with OM once and for all, and commit to having her out of our lives completely.

Until then, I hope you will understand when I say that I cannot see you or talk to you anymore. IM has agreed to be our intermediary, and she will help in making it easy for you to see your children, as we discussed. Our only contact should be in the case of emergency about the children.

Please understand my decision to separate from you this way. It is too painful for me to live with you any longer as long as you are also with her and do not want to have a marriage with me. I love you very much, and need to preserve that love so that I will still want to recover our marriage when you end your affair. I ask that until you are ready to end your affair with OM and focus on our marriage and family, you leave our home.

The way back home is simple: end all contact; be completely transparent with me with your phone, emails, and time; be truly repentant for the damage you caused; and, commit to rebuilding our marriage.

I look forward to the day when we can begin to rebuild our family and begin the rest of our lives together as a family. I want nothing more than to be your partner through life, and your best friend and confidante in all matters - you have always been mine. We can have a stronger marriage built on trust, love, honesty, and teamwork.

I loved you from the day I met you and I continue to love you right up to this moment. I hope for and look forward to a time when we can begin a new marriage with each other.

Love,
BS

Mine is not a Plan B letter. I wasn't going to Plan B yet. It is a moving out day letter with intentions of more Plan A.

Git it, I am not going to send a letter. We ended up having a talk this morning as she started her move out and the boys weren't awake yet. I have a lot of things to write about, but I spent the day away from the house. I am now taking younger son to movies. I will update lots of info later. I may need a 2 x 4 for what my feelings are. I can hardly breathe right now, she is not coming home tonight and surprised me with it 45 min. ago. Now I have to tell the boys. Thanks all for your support.

Make HER tell the boys. Your WW needs to see it in their faces. She is not going to react to it now, but if she ever wakes up, those will be moments that will KILL her. At least that is what other FWW have told me about.

I agree make HER tell your boys.

Okay, got time to type. We got into a talk this morning. I accused her of the emotional affair. She admitted to it. Said that I ignored her so long that she felt good to have some pay attention to her. She claims she didn't start it until after she had decided to leave me in February. That she updated her facebook status to It's complicated before she left that that is when she made up her mind. Not that she was going down there to see him. It just so happened that she met him after she made up her mind and updated her status. Either she is a fantastic actress/liar, or she was telling me the truth. I could tell it in her voice.

She still claims she wants nothing; she wants to make sure I can afford to keep the house and keep the boys living as normal as they were used to. All the bills are in her name. She said she is going to keep it that way to help me get used to paying all the bills and showing me how to do it online. She has always taken care of the finances our whole marriage. I know I should separate them all so she can't hurt me, but her helping to show me the bills and what gets paid how will be a big help. Plus, that means she has to see me and give her a chance to continue to see my progress on myself and the house.

In my new honesty an openness I told her about my going through her texts and e-mails. She will be moving and I won't be able to get info anyways. She said she felt hurt and violated like she was raped. You all told me she would say this. I simply said I was trying to get as much information as I could to save our marriage and did not apologize. She said it reminded her of her mother going through her intimate diaries when she was a kid.

The subject of the future came up. She said that she can not rule out a reconciliation, she doesn't know what the future will hold. She said that she can not think about it now, she needs to get away. I think she is so hurt she cannot think about us until she has time to heal and realize what she is missing.

She is lying, waywards LIE! Do not believe them!

How long will you be in plan A when she moves out?

I would definitely separate the finances, GET HER NAME OFF THE BILLS!

If that is the case are you willing to go into plan B when she leaves?

I am planning on Plan A for a while first; how long I do not know. It depends on how long I can do it, and see if it is having any effect. I know at some point I need to go to plan B, and maybe go dark and really isolate her. But I do see signs she is regretting leaving. She has made a few comments about it; so Plan A may have an effect for a while.

OK, just get your plan B ready, they say while in plan A always make sure you are ready for plan B at any moment or second...being prepared is the best thing you need to do right now.

BTW did I tell you that your wife is lying to you about changing her FB to confused BEFORE she met the OM? Well...

SHE IS LYING!!

A little more on the EA. She said she did it with Fla. POS because he was safe. It could never go anywhere because of the distance and the fact he has a live-in, but he gave her the attention I didn't and made her feel good when she was really down. What is the take on this?

None of the above.
1. She wants to rule out a reconciliation, but doesn't want to say that.
2. She is not thinking about her 'hurt' - she's not hurt in the least. She's having all of her needs met - that feels good.

I'm sorry, ah, but it sounds like your WW is working her own agenda. She's not 'healing' or anything like that.

And don't you, for ONE MINUTE, cast her as a victim who is HURT. ICK! Don't do it.

She is not convinced that I acted the way I did (or didn't act towards her) because of my depression. She sees the way I am now and says that no one comes out of a depression "overnight" and without medicine. I explained that I don't know why, but once I realized the problem/had it pointed out to me, I saw the way out. She said if I can do everything perfect now, I could have done that all along.

I think she is afraid to believe the changes in me for fear that if she comes back, I am going to revert and she will be right back where she was. Only time can prove to her that the changes are real and permanent, hence the continuation of Plan A.

I talked to my mother tonight and told her about the separation and move out. she wasn't surprised. I also told her about my depression and she guesses it goes back at least 7 years. Everyone could see it (but me of course) but no one knew how to tell me or get me help. I wish someone had and I wouldn't be here, but maybe I couldn't have seen my way out until I hit rock bottom. I do like the way I have changed and who and where I am becoming. I have a lot more joy, except for the pain of losing my wife.

I thought tomorrow was supposed to be the first night she was staying at her apartment, but she called me a few hours ago and told me she has too much to do to get her apartment ready and she doesn't have another day off after tomorrow for 13 days and is going to stay there tonight. I don't know if I can sleep, so I may be up most of the night and if so I will be typing a lot more. Expressing myself helps me calm down and cope. I did send her a text asking if she's okay and to call if she needs to talk. Trying to be there for her, but maybe that is going too far?

I wouldn't bother man, she's probably too busy with the OM chatting online.

I know it hurts, but you gotta do what ever is necessary to keep going in plan A, just never give up!

My husband was in plan A for 2 months while I flaunted my A right in his face!

I know plan A at this point might be a little tough because she is no longer in the house, just do the best you can, and you will know when to start plan B.

Just remember, it's not going to be like this FOREVER!

MB,
I know that she cannot excuse herself for the EA, I am the victim on that. I take blame for ignoring her needs and having no emotional connection with her. I however do not completely blame myself for this. With the depression I couldn't treat her right, and she could have treated me better and helped me through it. We are both at fault, but she NEVER had the right to get her needs met through an EA. It depends on which body part is running my body, heart or head and how I react to this. As I work through my depression and turn back on my emotions, I love her more than ever and feel guilty for my lack of relationship to her, so sometimes I take more blame than I should. I am the husband and I am supposed to take care of her and make her happy, and I didn't do it. I am old fashioned that way.

Sapphire,
I know it won't be like this forever, at least I hope not, it bites! I will do Plan A as long as I can. Steel myself up for Plan B and really think about going dark. I want to save this marriage so bad, I won't ever give up! I just need to keep working on me and getting out of where I was, IC will help. I suggested it to her as well; she still said she will do some couple counseling, but if she doesn't want to work on us, I do know what that is for, I guess I will find out when we jointly meet with MC.

Oh, and thanks for the 2 x 4 for any time I start to wallow. I need to keep focused, sliding back and feeling sorry won't help, but will justify her leaving and her belief that the change is an act.

Help Please. What are some good things I can do to continue plan A now that she is moved out? What works. What might end up as a LB? Should I call and ask how she is? Do I invite her out for lunch when she is working? Sapphire what did your hubby do? This is too important to me to screw it up. BTW, I doubt she is chatting online with POSOM, she is not getting internet, she can't afford it. So the only way she can go online is to drive to a WiFi hot spot, which means coming back into the village and near me.

Will come back later with some ideas - read myfamilyilove - he did some great Plan A while separated actions.

Make sure you are at the top of your game - like when you were dating her.

Whenever you see her - look good, smell good, good hygeine, maintain the house [censored] and span. Think of anything to impress as if she was a new girlfriend.

What happens in marriage is that we all get a bit lazy with ourselves and especially men need to keep appearances up even if married for 3 decades. I realized that when my weight had increased to 230 lbs ( I am 6-3) and should be in the 185 to 195 range. My wife used to make some comments about it. Now I am down to 190 - even being married 30 yrs - it matters to her what I look and feel physically.

Thats a start.

Yes always look and smell good!

You can text her every morning and say "Morning babe! Hope you have a wonderful day today!:D" something positive and nice!

No relationship talk.

No AO

When you find out, that she has been talking to the OM, don't freak out, just calm yourself, and ignore it.

Smile

This will be hard now that she is moved out, but sometimes for me I do a "healthy protest" when I am feeling overwhelmed, anxiety, sad, etc...when I have too much emotion, my healthy protest consists of a plastic stick banging my bed for 20 to 30 seconds, letting all my emotions out. That way when you do see her, and you are soo angry you won't let your emotions take over....

GOOD LUCK!

Avoid anything that makes you sound needy. I would not say "I miss you", I would not say "I'll always be here for you", she needs to know that she is tossing you away and she may or may not have a second chance with you. I would avoid anything that contributes to her cake eating. I would show her how self-sufficient you are and I would take care of my own bills and get them in my own name!
BTW, who ended up telling the chidren and how did they react?

And please don't believe any of the hogwash she tells you. She will try to lay everything on you, it's all your fault that SHE cheated, it's your fault SHE left, it's your fault SHE'S not happy, etc. etc. You've accepted responsibility for your share of how the marriage was, but the breakup is HER'S to own!

KC, thanks for the advice. I told the boys. She was supposed to come home last night, but she didn't. I told them, because they have the right to know. My younger one especially, because she took him down there for winter break as an excuse to see him. She says no, that it started after, but I don't believe it. I think it started when she took her mother down in Nov., if not las spring when she went down to drive her up.

BTW, how weird is this; she went out and bought me a set of pots, because she took her good ones with her. She had my son bring them over to me tonight. Is it guilt, or feelings for our well being; the boys at least?

Can I or should I try to stop the boys from visiting her? My oldest is 19 and still lives at home. He has been helping her move her stuff over to her apartment and is even visiting with her. Isn't this having her cake and eating it too? But what can I do? He has always had a very close bond with her.

Right now you are in plan A, they have every right to see her, she is still their mother, even when you do go into plan B they still have the right to see her...sorry I know you want her to hurt, but focus on your plans just know that plan A is not forever and plan B is not forever.

Tell us what the response of your sons after telling them the truth. Having your son visit may work to the marriage's advantage - after all thy have a stake on their family as well.

Think about it

You dont want to play mindgames with your own sons/

I told them the truth of the EA. O told my younger son that she used taking him down there as an excuse to see him. He's not happy with her. The older one didn't say much. His mother and him always had a very tight bond/special relationship; hence the him helping her move and she gave him a key to her place so he can move her stuff in. But she will probably let him keep it.

Boy MB is right. They said getting into the habit of building the love bank credits after making no deposits for so long will seem awkward and forced. Just sent her a morning text like suggested. It felt so fake and I'm thinking she's going to see right through it. Hope if I keep it up it will become natural and she will start being positively affected by it.

I assume it's normal for the WS not to respond to texts? If she eventually does, is that a good sign? Not like I expect that to happen any time soon.

Well, you said yourself that it sounded fake to you, so she probably feels the same way. Just keep doing it. The 'fake' feeling will go away and it will become natural.

Fake it till you make it!

Keep going on plan A

THIS is one of the HARDEST parts of Plan A. You have to have NO EXPECTATIONS. What I mean by that is that when you do something, you have to not worry about what your WW will or will not do. You do the things because YOU are a better YOU. This is what YOU want to do and you want to become a better person in a relationship. If you were in a healthy happy relationship, what would YOU be doing? Who would YOU be? THAT is what you have to do. The things you would have done different had you had the knowledge you do now. Make sense?

hi there awokenhubby,
I have just read through your thread and I feel for you and I'm glad that you have come to realize what your part was in the marriage breakdown and that you have accepted that and are willing to work on you for the betterment of your marriage.......that said, right now your wife is in A fog and all the logical thinking goes out the window and they feel very entitled and justified to have feelings for someone else.....
All you can do at this point is fill her needs when you can, don't support her A financially and tell her you are willing to work on yourself and the marriage when she is ready to commit to it.......without a 3rd person in her head......
Right now I wouldn't have any contact, let her feel life without you and her boys....she now will have to really think out how a fantasy life can actually be reality.......it doesn't work for a reason, he won't want to meet her needs and it will soon dwindle out and be more work then it's worth......
Keep yourself busy, tell her you want her to be happy, tell her she has chosen her life now and you will be getting on with yours.......
Let's see how well she does without you in her life, 21 years is a long time and not that easy to just throw away.......
Set her free and see if she returns, let her do that on her own, if she does you will know that it's important enough to her......It might take a bit of time for her to see the whole truth and to come out of the Affair fog, so hang in there for the long term, there aren't any quick answers here........good luck

It is very hard to Plan A while she is out, but try your best. I text my WW often while I was at work, being nice, even suggestive about some stuff, thankfully she did not ignore me, but it made it whole lot harder to keep up two conversations at once. Texting her helped me fill my love bank also (is that like stalking if you fill your own love bank??).

Other things I did was prepare myself in the morning to be the most positive person I can be, and to take care of myself by fulfilling needs that only I can fulfill like running, and hugging my boys.

Find what makes you happy, it will help in the plan A process. Plan A also works better when everyone is in the same home.

^ 's Wheels!

I agree, I do remember wheels texting me and trying to start a conversation, I also remember waking up one morning to hear wheels say "Well, time to say goodbye to Sapphire even though it disgusts me" when I heard that I was hurt, and felt guilty because I know he was hurting I just didn't know how bad because during the day he was plan A'ing me. That is when I knew how bad I was treating him

So work your plan A, I know plan A will be harder now that she is gone, but still work it, till you are ready for plan B.

GOOD LUCK!

Yeah, I said that in the hall under my breath at 6:00am before I even thought she was up, I felt horrible about that. I would always go in give her a kiss and say goodbuy. I still do, but it feels a lot more better and more natural now.

Guess the lesson is no matter how hard things get, its best to keep comments like that to yourself, and this board.

totally forgot about that one

And sometimes it's more then a kiss HEH HEH!

Anyway, what have you planned to make sure you are doing your best plan A?

Jessi, he is in Plan A... what you're describing or suggesting is what happens in Plan B. He's not ready for that yet. He needs to keep in contact to execute his Plan A. Plan B is more effective when followed by a stellar Plan A. The shock and awe of a sudden Plan B, but well thought out and prepared for in advance, is what is recommended. You don't just decide to do Plan B one day, it takes preparation and planning.

Awokenhubby, part of Plan A is to have NO EXPECTATIONS. Until you're ready to go to Plan B, be the best husband you can be under the circumstances. Work on you, exercise, smell good, take care of yourself. Do you Plan A stuff without expecting any reaction of her in return. Texts, compliments, doing little unexpected things for her are all part of Plan A.

I'm planning on keeping up the texts, but what if she tells me to stop them? Do I just reply that I need to because I care? I am working on me. The Divorce diet is wonderful, too much pen up frustration and sick to your stomach all the time really makes you not eat. I have lost 45 pounds since last Sept. I had started working on that before the bombshell, but I have lost 20 since D day. I am also biking and working out at the gym, things I used to love and stopped because of the depression. I plan on doing all the things to the house I haven't for the last 5-10 years. I am finishing my master's degree finally; a big bone of contention for her. I may try and surprise her and take her to lunch occasionally. Any ideas of what else I can do now that she is moved out? Her apartment is only 7 min. away. I also want to wait a little while and then see if she is up for simple no pressure dates like coffee or ice cream, nothing romantic, no pressure. Just to give her a chance to see a new me. I also want to get all the utilities and bills out of her name and into mine to show her I can do it and not rely on her.

If she tells you to stop you should reverse babble. say something like: "I know", and leave it at that. Just try to text her things that will fill her love bank, no relationship talk.

Fix up the house because you choose to and because it will fulfill you. I wouldn't do it for her because she may or may not even notice. Like they say, have no expectations of what the Wayward will do.

Anybody that can get their master's degree is definitely able to take care of their own bills. All you need are the user IDs and passwords and if she won't provide them, contact the companies for help getting set up with your own since she won't be on those accounts any more.

Do what you know is right to do without thought of outcome or expectation...just trust that these principles work and relax in peace in that. Above all, do not worry at all about what she will say or do, she is in crazy mode right now and the last thing in the world you need is her jerking you around with her outbursts...just let all that go. If she gets mad, don't let it affect you. If she makes promises, don't believe it, require back up/action/proof. If she cries, don't fall prey to it. If she threatens, let her. Just keep doing what you know inside you need to do and keep trusting and not worrying about the outcome.

38 mile bike trip! 18 miles per hour! I am calm again. I am fixing up the house because I want to. Our relationship got so bad, that whenever I did anything to the house (I turned a cape cod into a colonial, so think of the work and mess) she would complain that I made more work for her to clean up the mess, even if I wiped everything down twice. So I got so discouraged I stopped doing anything to avoid making her mad. So now I can finish all those projects and finish off the house! I am looking forward to it.

Another morning text to wife and a picture of the dog going for his swim. I am adapting to the texting and like the fact I am communicating with her.

Is it possible to get so obsessed with changing yourself that you can overdo it? I am working out like crazy to dull the pain and I am losing weight like crazy and really getting fit. I like it and want to continue. I haven't lost strength or energy, but I am worried that I could be overdoing it. It really helps me cope, but can I be overdoing it. I am eating well for the most part. It could just be that I haven't worked out every day in years and my body is responding well to the old regimen. I always was very quick to get fit and lose weight.

As long as you are liking the way you feel then I would say keep doing it. Plan A is about making you into the BEST YOU possible. THAT is IT. The fact that the WS sees these changes is the bonus. You are making yourself into a great person and spouse. Whether your WW comes to her senses is up to her. Take care of yourself and reap the rewards of a well executed Plan A. It builds confidence and a greater sense of self worth. Keep it up.

Quick question. The wife moved out on Wed. and hasn't been back. She still has some large pieces of furniture in the house and in the garage. They are in the way for me bringing in replacements. I assume it is a LB to ask her about when she will move them, but how long do I have to work around them?

You should just explain to her -- in a congenial way -- that you are trying to organize the house and was wondering if she still wanted these particular items, and if so, when she planned to pick it up.

Short. Direct and to the point. Non-confrontational.......

TBC

And even in a Plan A move, you could ask her if she needed any help moving them. You would help her of course.

I know this is HARD. It WILL get better, as long as you stick with the plans, I PROMISE.

Okay, I went to her work at the pool to bring her mail from the house and to talk to her about some matters with the boys. I tried to keep it light and pleasant. I complimented her. I brought the dog because I know she misses him. She still tried to take everything I said and make it an attack against her or a reason to get mad at me. So I just said give me a call and we'll talk later. However she said she wants to go grocery shopping, because she has a big discount coupon and she took all the coupons from Sunday's paper and never shopped before she moved out. So she wants to buy us food and bring it over. Is this typical cake and eating it too? She said she will get her car off my insurance in a few days. More separation of finances.

BTW, some of these things she bought specifically for the new apartment so I know she wants them. With the way she is right now, I know that even asking about them would set her off. She is so angry and bitter that anything I say she take wrong. It has been this way for years, hence why I stopped talking to her.

Not talking to her because she will be angry is a bad move. Are you willing to leave the stuff in there forever? If you want to know what her intentions are with the furniture, you ask her. Just don't engage in relationship talk and don't love bust and you will be within your Plan A parameters.

So she came over with the groceries. She was mad that I told the brothers about her EA. They are pissed off at me. They don't want to know about our personal problems. The younger brother sent me a terse, nasty e-mail. I get the real impression that telling them was a big negative. It didn't help my cause, and if anything made me look more of the unstable bad guy. She still insists it was just a friendship to help her with her loneliness after she decided to leave me. She also made the comment that if I want to win her back I need to stop with telling people about the EA because it is driving her farther away. I am so confused. Maybe I read to much into it, but 9 pages? She said her life was run for so long by 3 men, that now she wants to run it for herself. I plan on keeping up with the Plan A.

I think she is really torn by my changes. She sees them and has said that I might be able to change over night, but it took her a long time to get here and she needs time to heal. She also made the comment that how does she know that I won't stop this new me and go back to ignoring her and not talking to her. I just told her, now that I am out of the depression and emotionless person I was, I will never go back to that. I told her I have to keep sending her the texts because I need to communicate with her. She said that she wants to talk about things with the counselor because we will have a neutral party present who can mediate and hear both sides. I think that is very promising. BTW, I didn't start the relationship talk, she did, and I tried to keep it positive. It has only been 4 days since she moved out and I think her feelings are still hurt and raw. Maybe 2 weeks until our next counseling session will be good.

It's very possible you're overdoing it, because it is a tendency for BSs to overcompensate for what they perceive to be any shortcomings in their life that may have helped lay the groundwork for the A.

It really doesn't matter at the end of the day. You're going for personal improvement, and as long as you're enjoying your results and not injuring yourself you're doing fine.

She is mad at you for telling her brothers about her EA simply because it takes away some of the high that she gets from the addiction. She doesn't want to have other people watching her while she gets high, it feels icky.

Her brothers getting nasty about your exposure is not a surprise, a lot of people react that way. This seems very counter-intuitive to other people. Most BSs find it counter-intuitive when they first get here. Many times people will say, "Why are you telling everyone? Your problems should be kept private." Also, other people may have known about the affair and now are being exposed as well.

Just keep on improving yourself and continue with a GREAT Plan A.

I don't like the victim tone I'm hearing about your WW. I worry that, slowly, she is easing you into feeling guilty about her A.

I don't think she needs time to heal. YOU do. And her feelings are still hurt and raw?? Who chose to have an A, here? Her or you?? Am I missing something that would put these "WW as Victim" comments in context?

MB,
I am saying this based on her emotions and reactions to anything I say to her. I know she is not the victim here. She chose to have this EA. She chose to leave me. I am saying these things because of how hurt and empty she was to turn to the affair. To see her face and body language when she talks about the last few years together tell tons. It is still wrong what she did, but my ignoring her and not communicating with her put her there. I was wrong for my lack of connection with her to put her there, but she still chose to do what she wanted. She claims it didn't start until after she decided to leave me, but I don't believe her. I still hold the EA responsible for her refusal to try MC and put us where we are.

So, in the last few years she was telling you she was hurt and empty? The EA wasn't a surprise, then? Can you honestly agree that you were ignoring her cries for attention? Were there really times when she would plead for you to communicate with her, and you shut her down? I'm not trying to argue with you - I'm trying to get a handle on this.

I'm glad to hear that you don't believe that bit about the EA starting after she decided to leave you. That typically isn't the case, and most waywards will say that to purify their A.

Something you need to know awoke...WS rewrite history! I told my husband I was unhappy for 3 years...and in reality it was all a lie! The only time I was unhappy is DURING the EA, before the EA's I was VERY happy! But the guilt usually gets to us, so therefore we always rewrite history and blame our S because they "ignored" us bla bla bla...fog babble!! Trust me, she is lying about everything, do not believe her, she is a wayward and will lye to justify what she is doing.

Looking back now that I am out of the fog of the depression, I did ignore her. I was afraid to communicate with her for fear of getting into an argument. That is not a good way to live for either of us. she did tell me at times that I never tell her anything. She was/is mad at my sister because she knew more about what was going on in my life than my wife. I could talk to my sister and not be afraid of getting belittled or getting into a fight. I never knew how to not LB when this happened, so I didn't take the chance of starting a conversation. I spent a lot of time in the study on the computer so I didn't have to be around her. This made for a crappy life for both of us. It didn't bother me as much because I was in depression and had little for emotions. WS is always full of emotions (that's one of the things I love about her) and this really tore her up.

Ah, understand one thing: A's happen because spouses 'ignore each other.' Nothing new here. My point to you is to NOT allow her to assume the mantle of 'victim'. She doesn't deserve it, and it will hinder your healing.

I am waiting to hear that she acknowledges this terrible misdeed and owns it. Short of that, I'm worried for you.

MB,
She is not the victim, she chose to do it. Until she admits to it and understands that her EA prevented her from trying to repair our marriage, WE will not work and I don't want her back. As much as I hurt now, I like where I am going. I want to make the journey with her, but not her the way she is right now. She needs to accept it for what it is and get rid of her feelings that made her seek out emotional attention from someone else.

Good. Good that you both know this. She agrees with this,correct?

I have told her that as long as she is contacting him, she is getting her needs met by him and she won't work on the marriage. I have not told her I don't want her back until she admits it, NCs him, and gets help. That is more of the Plan B right, and I am still in Plan A, she has only been moved out 5 days. She did tell me yesterday that she wants to bring things up with the MC so she has a neutral party to hear it and decide, so it sounds like she wants to talk about marriage issues; but I'll have to wait until the session to see what she wants to talk about. I am being optimistic that she wants to talk about issues.

Well I am going to the counselor tomorrow morning without my wife. It will be good to talk to him about all I've discovered about myself and my wife since the last visit 6 weeks ago. It will be interesting to see his reaction to it all. Hopefully he can help me with a strategy for our couple counseling in 2 weeks.

Okay, how do I talk to my wife about a problem with our son. He is 2 hours past curfew and not home. I went looking for him, worried sick. I am mad at my wife, because she walked away and complained that I get everything and she gets nothing, but she doesn't have to be a parent and worry about this stuff anymore. She is probably sleeping soundly while I worry. I am so mad at her. I can't even say anything without it being a LB!

Yes do not discuss this yet to your wife, especially if you have resentment towards her right now.

You need to have a talk with your son, and explain that he has a curfew, and he should respect you enough to listen to you. Maybe ask him if everything is ok? Don't argue with him, don't ground him, their might be something on his mind that he's not telling you, so talk to him, see if he will talk to you. Let him know that you love him soo much, and you don't want this situation to break your family apart.

After the talk, let him know that this is just a warning, and you would appreciate it if he would come home on time.

He fell asleep at his girlfriends while watching a movie. That's twice this week he missed curfew, last night was by 3.5 hours. It could be a reaction to mom moving out, but he needs to be responsible. We talked last night.

Is it the younger or older son? My son was not quite 19 when WXH moved out and did the same thing. I talked with him but I tried not to pressure him in any way. He seemed to need to process everything his own way and it did include some slightly risky behavior. At 18/19, there's not a whole lot you can do.

The IC session went well. We had a good talk about me and our marriage. While he doesn't read the MB books, his philosophy is very similar. He doesn't believe in exposure of EA. His theory is it doesn't do anything to improve you or the marriage. But we had a good talk about my progress, depression and recovery, and mistakes WE made. I gave him a lot more insight into WAW's mental position and relationship with mother so he can understand it. Talked a lot about mistakes we made and how to change them. He didn't call it that, but we talked a lot more on Plan A and reconnecting with my wife. He is prepared a lot more for her position and said that whatever happens in our MC session to listen and don't react; she probably has a lot to say. I made another Appt. for 1 week after our session. It felt good to talk and get things off my chest.

Tabby, it is my 19.5 year old. He says he didn't do it on purpose, just fell asleep because he was so tired from work. He is a bear to wake up, his girlfriend probably tried and gave up. Told him it's not acceptable. He was always close with mom, but he says he is fine with her mover out. He even helped her move and has been over there. My younger one has not been over there and does not talk to her, but has sent her a few texts. He is not happy with her decision.

I've dealt with the curfew thing. AH, consider not putting too much stock in his lateness having anything to do with WW. Teens have been late for curfew since Cain and Abel.

I dealt with it by cutting regular curfew back a few hours, and letting them 'earn' their old curfew back by being on time for the new curfew. It worked.

I broke curfew all of the time and my parent's weren't separated until I was 32 so it had nothing to do with that.

My parents tried grounding me for 1 day for every minute I was late. Didn't work.

The only thing I remember was, my parents, one night, stayed out really late. They didn't call and no one knew where they were. My sister, brother and I were so worried that when they came home we let them have it. They smiled and said, "So, how does it feel?" I don't remember being late after that, without a phone call at least.

Just started dealing with DS10 going to a friend's house by himself and having to be home at a certain time. When he came home late the first time, by 10 minutes, I told him that the next time, he had to be home 10 minutes earlier. It did seem to work.

He is late all the time, so this is not something due to the breakup. So he needs to know it won't be acceptable now either. Hopefully the tongue lashing last night will do some good.

Okay, so really this curfew thing isn't something new that you're dealing with now that WW is gone. It's just that you have to deal with it alone. You resent that of her. No problem there. I understand that.

Yes, that is the problem. She leads her single, carefree life and I have all of the burdens of the house, kids, dogs, bills, etc. It makes me mad, especially when she says I get it all, and she gets nothing. It was her choice to leave, not mine. I created an environment where she wasn't happy, but that wasn't me, it was the depression. The counselor said I have done a real good job so far of making the steps out of the depression and I have the right attitude regarding working on myself and not worrying about the marriage because I can't do anything directly about it. I am seeing him individually a week after our joint session. The joint session is 2 weeks from today, but I am already getting anxious to see where it is going to go. It is going to be a loooong 2 weeks.

The resentment is NORMAL. Just get a solid Plan A together and execute it. What are you doing for that tomorrow?

Another text in the morning. I called her today and asked her if should like like to meet me for lunch this week, but she has returned no phone calls or texts. I can't do anything else other than keep texting and calling. I did give her the TV from out of our bedroom and got a digital converter box from my sister for her so she can get the local channels.

Have you used Princess Meggy's great text yet? "I heard on the news today that aliens are abducting all of the sexy people. I will miss you." I LOVE this one too. It could mean your WW is the sexy one about to be abducted or YOU. It's a great one. Keep the texts light and fun. Like good morning or some joke you heard. You can write some emails of the remember when kind.

She changed her e-mail provider to a free one and I don't have the address.

Do your children?

You could do it the good old fashioned way of snail mail.

So morning phone call didn't go so well. I asked her about lunch and she said she couldn't leave. I said that stinks that you don't get paid for lunch but you can't leave and she blew up at me. Said I was pushing her and won't take no for an answer. I kept it calm and didn't argue back. I said if you want me to bring a lunch and we can eat it outside at work let me know and she left it at we'll see.

Well it is getting easier to function. How long before you can sleep through the whole night? I still get up 4-5 times. You get so used to someone next to you, even if you don't touch, just knowing they are there.

Hey A-Wok,

I remember those nights. Nothing fun about being wide awake at 1:48AM, and 2:28AM, and 3:42AM, and......

Trust me, it does get better. It really varies and depends upon the individual.

Funny, but I still sleep on my usual side of the bed (as opposed to the WHOLE bed), and it's been over a year. Creature of habit, I guess....

TBC

I also still sleep on "my" side of the bed. I shared a bed with my sister while I lived at home and moved out of my parent's house in with my WH. That means I have shared a bed with someone since I was about 3. 31 years and then he was GONE. It was hard at first and I had tonnes of dreams. I actually sleep quite well now. There is no snoring or moving around that isn't ME. I sometimes think about what it will be like if/when my WH comes home.

You CAN do this.

Except for college, I never lived on my own, but even then when I lived off campus I had a roommate. I too went from my parents house to a place with my then girlfriend/now wife. I have a hard time being alone. The boys are here, but when I'm home alone it gets bad. I don't know what I will do when they both sleep over her place. That will be the hardest. She has now given both of them a key to her place. The younger one has no interest in staying there and has only been there to help the older one bring some of here stuff over. He says he's okay with her leaving because she got psycho the last few years. And I thought it was just me.

Isn't it funny how others saw the changes too. My WH stopped talking to his friends and family and my BIL warned me last summer that he thought that my WH was up to no good. I knew about the "friendship" since Nov/09. I talked about it openly to all of my friends, including BIL(he was WH's BESTFRIEND). Others all saw something bad too. Well, had I found THIS place, I would have "seen" much sooner. Even my kiddos noticed that Daddy was so much angrier with them. He had no patience and didn't let them do things. He didn't really want them around when I was at work. Now I know it was because he was chatting with OW on the computer and didn't want the kids interrupting.

I just hope the MC can talk her into going for IC. She needs it to heal, whether it's to be with me or be on her own, she has been this way for too long from her mother's treatment. That was a large part of our problem, her low self-esteem from the treatment from her mother. She was always looking for the negative in every thing I said and did. That was what put me down the path I ended up in, I just wish I had gotten help on my depression before it was too late and she wanted to leave.

Worry about YOUR side of the fence friend. There is nothing you can do for hers. SHE has to do that work. SHE needs to carry her own baggage, or put it down. You can't FIX this for her. Your side of the fence is messy enough, take care of YOU.

Is it a bad Plan A if I refuse to help my wife move or fix up her apartment? I can't stomach myself to help my wife leave me. She needs some large furniture moved and I could probably get a truck from a friend, but I refuse. She needs some things installed in her apartment, but I won't offer. I know this isn't meeting her needs, but this is one need I can't meet. My son is over there now doing those things for her. Am I wrong?

No. And your son shouldn't be helping her either.

A-wok. The reason that it isn't wrong is because you are married to this WW and you are supposed to be showing her, in Plan A, what it is like to be married to you. You shouldn't aid in the destroying of your marriage. You aren't going to be cruel about it. You should reverse babble it and tell her things about how you would LOVE for her to have the rest of her things back in your house and that you would GLADLY help her move BACK IN.

Scotty,
But I thought that talking about our relationship/marriage was a no-no. I'm not supposed to put any pressure on her. Just fix myself and show her how things can be with the new me.

Gave my wife the usual good morning phone call. As usual, she wouldn't answer so I left a message. She called back to talk about the credit card bill. She then made a comment about how she is getting shafted on everything lately, because when we close our joint credit card it will hurt her credit rating. Like it's my fault! I just hope the MC can convince her for IC sessions so she can deal with her low self-esteem issues. That was a large part of our problems. As the counselor said people with low self-esteem immediately get defensive and then they attack. That led to a lot of our issues. I am learning how to deal with that, she needs how to deal with her issues.

Well my son and his friends just moved the last of WAW's big stuff. She still has small stuff here. She is leaving her grandmother's china here, her winter coats, and some other small things. What exactly does this mean?

It means you are her storage unit. Sorry, but you asked.

Don't look into the meanings of the actions of a wayturd because your head will spin and you will VOMIT. This is crazy-making stuff you are dealing with here. You just need to focus on doing your Plan A and forget about what she is or isn't doing and how she is reacting. That is where the no expectations part comes in.

I know, you're right. It's just so hard not to try and find hope in everything. It does make me crazy at times and makes me want to vomit as well. I know I am not supposed to have any expectations, but I can't help but not have hope. I will until the ink is dry on the divorce papers.

Hope and expectations are two different things. There is a thread about that, I think Now_what is the one who created it. It was a discussion on expectation during Plan A. I will link it for you.

Here you go.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=160619&Number=2392740#Post2392740

Reading reading reading. THAT'S how we learn here on MB.

And to think, I used to HATE LOATH reading.

I knew it was going to happen, and I know I can't stop it, but the oldest just came back from mom's and said he was going to spend the night. It feels like a kick in the stomach.

Scotty,
Thanks for the thread. I read it and it helps somewhat. I know about no expectations, but it IS HARD. I know how much I have changed in the last 2 months and I know that we can be happy if she wants to try. So I think that sooner or later she will notice. I know it has only been a short time, but I worry. It is tough to do a plan A when she doesn't live here, won't answer my texts or phone calls, and won't see me. What else can I do? I can't send flowers to her, to her those are lovebusters. I can just keep doing the same things. the problems is the old analogy of the definition of insanity, "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." There's that dang expectation word again.

Hey A-Wok,

You can't rush it. The more you pressure you apply towards her, the more likely she'll repel from it.

You gotta just keep focusing on you. She's probably still in the honeymoon stage of being on her own. After a few weeks, she'll start comparing what she HAS with what she HAD.

Keep busy. Work on the house. Socialize with friends. Start to invest time into new hobbies and interests. Don't sit around and constantly think about what she's doing, or what YOU can do to get her back.

I know how it feels. I've been there, A-Wok. I know it's isn't fun, and I know that it hurts. Believe me when I say it DOES GET BETTER.

TBC

As I think more about Plan A and improving it I have a question. If Plan A is about showing her how the marriage can be if you try, and one of our biggest problems was talking, especially about US and forming a bond, then why do we never talk about US or how much you love them in Plan A? If that is what was missing, then if I never do that, then aren't I still neglecting her ENs and one of the biggest reasons she left? I know about pressuring them and pushing them away farther, so how do you walk the fine line?

Hey neighbor, just want to let you know that I am diligently following your thread and am praying for the best for all of your family. I was just thinking, hell, I've been married 41 years now and maybe a 6 month hiatus wouldn't be too bad. Probably not though, she might enjoy it more than me. That double edged sword again, ugh! Oh well, if wishes were horses than beggars would ride. Me, just moral support for you, the other seasoned pros will help you through this. Wishing you the best..........Ken

Thanks Ken, I can use all the support I can get. It is amazing that since I have "woke up" how many of my friends have accepted my apologies and really been there for support. It makes me sorry that I let our friendship slip the last few years and want to make up for lost time.

Hey A-Wok,

Plan A is two-fold. It's tending to your side of the fence. It's about fixing aspects of yourself that may have been detrimental to the M. You were probably neglecting to meet her most important ENs. You probably manufactured LBs on a regular basis. Or maybe just regular to HER. It's also showing her the husband you can be -- when she wants to see it. I still get a sense that your changes have come pretty quickly and she probably has concerns regarding whether they are genuine. And whether they will stick....

Relationship talk is bad because it's heavy. It's draining. It's emotionally charged. And a lot of times, it's too focused on what one person did in the past to "screw things up". That's what IC's typically do -- they get you to talk about the past with your spouse, and before too long, the couple is at each other's throats for any and all of the past indiscretions....

You cannot force yourself into her world. She has to invite you in there -- whether it's a text, or e-mail, or phone call, or personal visit. Then, just be nice to her. Listen to her. And remember, you took a long time to get to this place in your M, it's probably gonna take a decent amount of time to dig out of that hole.

Hang in there.

TBC

TBC,
thanks for the advice. My MC seems to be less of the issue guy and more of the fix yourself guy. He even warned me at my IC session that when we have our joint MC session, to just let her talk/vent and listen to what she has to say without responding. You're right it has been years coming, and it will take a while for her to heal. I am impatient because once I "awoke" came out of my depression fog, the changes have been amazing and quick. Everyone who sees me now is amazed at my body and personality changes. She does not think they will stick and that I am "faking them". Only time and sustainability of the changes will give her hope for a better marriage. It is just hard to go back to the way I was that made her happy and not have her see the new "old" me.

You know, if you really want to be a d*&k head, when people remark about your changes, just tell them it happened right after your wife left........LOL

Well I tell them I have a great diet. I don't recommend it, but it is highly effective. When they ask, I tell them it's the divorce diet. You feel like throwing up all the time so you don't eat, and the stress really burns the calories. They look at me, and then I tell them that my wife left me. I know she won't like the way I put it; but we didn't separate. It wasn't mutual, I don't like it. Flat out, she left me. Paints her in a bad light, but it is what it is.

Well the son was late for curfew for the 3rd time and has had one accident in the last 11 days, so I grounded my from the car except for work. I get a text from WAW this morning that was nasty and asking about him being able to help her move some stuff if he's grounded. So I call her and she yells at me for giving him a midnight curfew. I tried explaining to her that I can't go to sleep till he is home, and he doesn't need to be out any later, especially when he had to get up at 5:30 today. She then says "whatever, it's your house and your decision, I didn't take your call to get blasted by you." How is this blasting her? Is this just her anger over her moving out and the changes she sees in me that she is angry about because I never did them before? Is this the reality of the life she chose setting in? Is her venom towards me going to get worse before/if it ever goes away? Man this is confusing, I do nothing but try to be nice and she jumps at me for everything.

so I went to church today, the one where the counselor screwed us by giving her bad advice. It was both comforting and painful. I enjoyed the message and connecting with people I haven't seen in a while, but painful because of the role it has in the destruction of our marriage. I talked with a friend of ours after for 45 min. and it felt good. I think this is something I need to do as part of my healing and growth. If I can go and enjoy it and not harbor ill feelings, then that is a good sign of my continued improvement.

So I texted her an apology for upsetting her this morning (not That I did anything) and told her that I can't sleep when someone is not home, and even said that included her. She texted back that it is my house and my decision. But she also said to communicate that to him and that communication is key to any relationship. She then asked me how church was (someone had already called her and told her I was there). I simply texted back that communication is key and that is why I am working on it. I also asked how she knew I was at church. She hasn't responded yet. Did I do any LBs in that?

I know what you mean about not being able to sleep until your family is home safe! My son has long ago moved out and now I sleep much better.

That apology was needy on your part. Looks like you just wanted an excuse to contact her. Just my opinion however.

Possibly, but I am trying to be more communicative and accept my mistakes. Part of my plan A. She did tell me how she knew I was in church. She saw me because she was there. She said it was like a punch in the gut to see me at church when I never went with her. So she left. I did go to church with her, but just the major holidays. I simply texted her that now that I am out of my depression, I see things in a different light. She told me to keep going to church and she will figure out how she feels about me going or maybe go to a different service. It is a very large church, she could have stayed. I never saw her and wasn't trying to see her, I thought she was at work. I honestly think she wants NC with me so she can't see my changes and second guess her leaving. But I am probably grasping at straws again.

Your Plan A is about improving yourself. If that means that you renew your relationship with God, then DO IT. It would be more Plan A if you invited her and went even if she didn't.

Improve yourself. Focus on making you into a great person. Be the best YOU you can be.

Scotty,
Good idea about inviting her. I doubt she will accept. After her texts to me about it being a punch in the gut to see me there, and her leaving upon seeing me. How I would never go with her when we were together. But it is worth a try. The worst she can say is no, and I plan attending more regularly anyways. I even got my younger son to go with me. But like I said, I think she is avoiding me probably because of guilt, and maybe to avoid seeing the changes and second guessing herself.

Okay, stop focusing on what she is doing and why she is doing it. This is YOUR plan. Grab hold of it and hang on. You need to figure out who YOU want to be and how to become the best person you can. Are you going to go to church on Sundays to impress her? The answer to this should be NOPE. You should be doing it because that is what you want to do and who you want to become. Be your best. Live your life and try to meet your WW's ENs.

Scotty,
Like I said, I didn't even know she would be there. I went because I feel a need to go, to connect and have hope. I missed going and getting the feeling of joy. I am not necessarily very religious, but I like the community of people and used to do a lot of things to help out around the church. As the people I used to work with there left and I got into my depression, I lost the joy of going and being around those people. Now that I am awoke, I want to get the same feelings I used to.

Sorry this next post is so long, but I keep trying to do Plan A and communicate with her and be the best I can be. This is the e-mail I got from her this morning. Please read it and let me know what to do! Should I stop or keep up the communication? Should I explain to her that since I have worked out of the depression this is who I am and what I will be? We do have a counseling session scheduled for next Tues. Do I wait until then?

To BH,
I don't know how to explain to you how I feel but I do not want to do lunch or dinner at this point. I left to get away from something that made me very unhappy. You are sending me texts of all the things we COULD have done for years and now you are doing them all and making me hurt more! Sending me text of how great walking the dog,how cute he is and how much you enjoy it, freaking annoys me when I had asked for you to do it with me for all the time we had him. You made me hurt when I asked you to walk him cause I was a nag.. now it is the greatest thing. I miss my dog, house kids,neighbors,friends, being part of a family,having a life, going to church with my sons,making dinner for my family,people driving by and waving and honking, visiting neighbors, being able to do laundry art any time of the day...Doyou get how bad I am hurting and returning home to be with you will not solve it. You keep sending me messages cause you want to communicate after not wanting to talk to me for years. Now all you are saying is things that make me want to cry. You have it all and I live in looserville with all the other people that don't have families or friends and sit alone in their apartments cause they were not a good person. So now that you are a new man ,great father, super house keeper,and all the things you could not be when I was with you keep it up. I am glad you are heeling and can do all those things with no problems. Just stop making me feel SO bad. I dreamed of sharing life with you and those dreams were shattered when you let me know I didn't matter to you. Now I am creating new dreams. Dreams of just getting through a day, week, month with out... all I ever dreamed of. Just breathing is a chore and each text of your joy and happiness of doing all i did sucks it out of me.. Understand I don't hate you and am very happy for you and the boys. I am glad you are heeling and getting better. Just stop with the morning texts that make me so upset before work. I have a job that I need to be my best at and happy. I Hope you can understand this and respect this. It is not that I don't want to talk to you but it is so hard to get the happy texts a when you couldn't do it while we were together.
From WAW

WAW,
My messages aren't meant to make you feel bad, but to let you know that I love you and would love to share in life with you...not the life we did have, but the life we could have. You do not belong in Loserville...you are not a loser and never were. I would love nothing more than for you to live with me and our children and have the life you say you miss with your dog, house, kids, neighbors, friends, church...and the me I have become.
You and the kids are everything to me.
Love,
awokenhubby

ITA with this message. You should definitely send Kay's message. It makes her feel bad because she knows that what she did was wrong. You being the new you and showing her makes her feel guilty. She is trying to engage you and doing it the way Kay suggests would be right on point for a Plan A. Keep it up. You are hitting the mark with your Plan A. Although, that isn't the reason you are doing it right? ;D

KC,
I was thinking along the same lines, but I think she needs to get professional help to deal with her self-esteem and probably depression issues before I could think about making it work. And I can't do that, she has to decide to do it. With counseling, I think that she could heal and we could recover. But is it too early to send something like your letter? She has only been gone 2 weeks.

No it is NOT too early to send that email to her, they are right, the only reason why she is feeling that way is because she knows what she did was wrong. Send the email

Awokenhubby,
I would send the letter. You can cross the bridge of your terms once she decides to come back. If you tell her she needs professional help, it probably won't be taken too kindly. At this point I would deal with that later. Right now you're working on you. IMHO it's easier to save a marriage if you're in the same house, that would be my primary goal. Keep it short, don't add anything that could be construed in a bad way.

You are in Plan A and this would be a PERFECT Plan A moment. You need to tell her that you want your marriage to be recovered. THIS message would tell her that.

Okay,
It's unanimous. I'll send the letter. I got home from the park, having a picnic with friends and walking the dog and she was here in the house with the boys. She says she came to get her bike, but I wonder. She also told me she was lied to and her apartment building allows smoking and cats, both of which bother her. This could work in my favor. I just cleared out my study, and with a little more work, I could put a bed in there and make that a room for her to sleep in. Maybe I'll put that in the letter.

Scotty,
I am doing this for me. I really like where I am and where I'm headed. Getting her back would be a bonus, albeit a HUGE bonus. I love all the compliments and head turnings and the comments from my friends and even some strangers! I just need to make sure I keep it up. I even went through my drawers and got rid of my fat clothes; god I'm sounding like a woman!LOL

It's sent with a little modification. I kept all of KC's and added 2 sentences. Now I am nervous about her response. I know, no expectations! But I can have hope even if this is real early in the process.

Good job!! Hope it all works out for you! Keep the faith and keep working on yourself! You are doing a fantastic job!!!

Married people sleep in the same bed. I wouldn't put anything about the other room in the letter. You don't make it easier for her to live separately from you, even in the same house. Are you content with being roommates? Are you going to have "dates" come over? I am sure the answer to that is NOPE.

Like you said, you need to work on yourself and she needs to work on herself when/if she feels like she does. You can't "educate" her. That would be an LB. What you have to do is just do YOUR PLAN and not worry about what she is doing. You'll get there. Let the people on here guide you to where you want to be.

I still have HOPE. I will have HOPE for a long time. THing is what I expect is for me to be GREAT. Getting to a place where I will NOT accept crumbs. DON'T accept crumbs. If you do, you will HATE yourself and your wife and your marriage will SURELY die.

I did Plan A(have you read my story BTW? My Plan A was in the first 43 pages or so). I know how hard it is. I know how much it kills but I have also been witness to A LOT of posters who come on here and don't do the work. They just coast and then say MB didn't work. MB is just like a diet program. YOU need to do it. It doesn't work by itself. I often think about the saying, "If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. If you teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime." DrH is teaching you how to "fish." It's up to YOU to learn.

Scotty,
I have read a lot of your story, but not all. That is why I am so impressed with you. You have persevered and are becoming great. I will not go back to who I was, and I will not take her back to go back to what we were. It will be right for both and by both of us or I don't want it. I don't ever want to be driven to that point of depression again. It sucked to go through life like that. I am where I am because of reading and following Dr. H. If she comes back, I will urge her to re-read and follow his steps. If we both follow them, we can have a great relationship. But I am not getting up hope. I am going to continue working on me and the house and be ready if she decides to come home to work on our marriage. If not then I hope I can be changed as much as you and be ready for what ever the future may hold.

You are still in Plan A, so just keep that up as much as possible. Remember, Plan B is ahead(15% of affairs end with Plan A alone, so the stats are higher that you will need Plan B), and you want to be able to say that you did the best Plan A you could. Even I have low moments where I wonder if I couldn't have done a better Plan A. Then I re-read my own thread and see that I did the best I could.

We as BSs tend to re-write in a posistive way. We start to look back at our marriage and see through some "good" marriage glasses. It's because we want a marriage and out instincts are to hold on to what we had. A WS wants to cake-eat(or wants OUT) so their history re-write is to support their POV. Who is right? Neither of us. We are both picking the "evidence" for OUR side. Be impartial and just learn how to make yourself better and the rest will follow.

Well I checked my e-mail and had a ranting e-mail from the wife. Someone told her that I said she told me she was leaving me on our anniversary and moved a month later. I have told anyone who knows that she told me 2 days after our anniversary and moved out July 1st. I told her that. I also told her I am taking the blame for how I treated her and told anyone who knows about us about my depression and what it did to us. She actually did talk about the chance of reconciliation and said if I keep up trashing her that is going to be more unlikely, that she is becoming teflon and a cold-hearted [censored]. I replied I want to cause her no more harm and want only to work on improving myself to be the best person I can be. Well so much for one step forward.

Oh but A-wok, this IS a step forward. Have you not read that WS get ANGRY over exposure. The angrier they are, the better it is for YOU and your marriage. Affairs THRIVE in secrecy.

THIS is why there has to be no expectations. That way, you just stick to your plan no matter what your WW does or doesn't do.

Thanks for the support Scotty. I know the steps, it's just hard sometimes to see the progress. I think just a simple good morning text with no more happy parts today. I'll see how she takes it.

I think of Plan A as setting the stage and Plan B where things come to a head. A lot do not respond to the Plan A because they aren't around to see it or they don't believe in it's genuineness or they have already made up their minds what they want and nothing is swaying them. Plan B is where they go into withdrawal over you, you aren't there to meet there needs, come to their rescue, they miss all the things about their life with you that they didn't even realize before were important.

KC,
As evidenced by the e-mail she sent, she sees my changes and she misses all those things. The question is whether she is ready to come back and try. She has come over to the house the last 2 days under the guise of seeing the boys. Today she took my son out to lunch and stayed here while I wasn't home and gave my younger one a haircut. Last night she came by to see the boys and get some stuff off the computer. I think she is coming around to see if the changes are sticking. I am getting anxious to see how our joint counseling goes next Tues. That will tell a lot about where we are.

My younger son just came back from helping her hang curtains. She told him she is going to make and freeze one meal a week and bring it over to give me a break from cooking. Is this her cake eating, or trying to be nice and start to reconnect. Should I accept, accept only if she eats with us, or decline the offer? Should I offer to let her do laundry here, she complained about having to use the machines in the apartment building. Is this enabling her cake eating, or a good Plan A, allowing her to see how the house and I are progressing and the changes being permanent?

Plan A is very difficult when the WS left the home, but plan A you are suppose to see them as much as you can, why don't you invite her over to dinner.

I have asked her, and she said she doesn't want to do lunch or dinner with me. Maybe if I have her over as part of the family she may accept. However I called her this morning to talk about my son's cell phone, and she reminded me "didn't you get my e-mail about no texts or phone calls before I go to work?" So I am going to try and talk/text her after work and see if she protests that.

SR,
I just had to read your whole thread after all the help you gave me. It is awesome. I just wish my WAW would see she needs help and get it. After my change I know we can make it work. It is comforting to know she is saying every thing that you said she would. It gives me more hope for success, and more determined to stay in Plan A.

If you really want to know what my husband had to go through during all of this you can read his thread

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2331830&page=1

SR,
Wow, you have an amazing DH. A lot of your story sounds just like my wife, but her EA is not that intense, long distance and hooked, but not that bad. I just hope that she will get the counseling she needs and sees what she is doing. It was great that you saw the light and reconciled. Until my WAW can deal with her self esteem issues, I fear there is no hope for us. I will however, be a much better person for whatever comes of this; either for her or someone else. My relationship with my sons is at an all-time great level, and I am figuring out how to do it all on my own. Thank god I have summers off to deal with all the sudden changes. At least something great is coming of this.

Always look on the positive side of EVERY situation

Okay, so the wife has her paycheck from one of her jobs still sent to the house. I called her and had her come pick it up. She spent 45 min. talking to me about finances and bills and a little light talk. I told her my plans for the summer because I am only doing a 2 week summer school review. when I told her all I wanted to do on the house she said you're killing me doing all those things now. I replied that now that I am out of the depression, I see these things that need to be done and I want to make the house look great. I also said that I am going to spend the summer getting into the shape I want to be in. I also informed her of my plans to take younger son to the Adirondacks to play in a rugby tournament and go camping. I know I don't have to, but I want to keep her informed of everything because I never communicated with her in the last few years. Was all this the right thing to do? I think I followed Plan A and avoided any LBs.

Looks absolutely perfect. Positive things to say, future plans are great, as long as you avoid the relationship talk, and if one of her EN's is conversations then I think you did well also. Thats the whole idea of a plan A is to give them the carrot by meeting their ENs and the stick of exposure and destroying the affair.

What other ENs of hers do you think she has, and what are you doing to meet them?

That's the tough part. With her not living here, I have to do it through texts and phone calls. She has asked me not to do either in the morning before work because my happy info upsets her before work. So I just do a good morning and leave anything more than that till after she's out of work. I have asked her to meet me for lunch or dinner, but she says she doesn't want to, it's too painful. The only thing I can do is keep trying. We do have a joint counseling session on Tues. that I reminded her of, I may offer to ride together, but I doubt she'll take me up on it.

You're doing great! Let us know how it goes Tuesday.

The ride TO C would be good, it's the ride BACK that I would be worried about. Also, why are you going to counseling with a wayward? Joint counseling doesn't do better. It does WORSE.

You seem to be doing okay with the Plan A stuff. As long as you show her in ACTIONS and not just words. I wouldn't have told her all about the future plans for this summer, I would just do it and then tell her about it.

I also would keep doing the texts. She was only getting bothered by them because they were working. Although, you shouldn't have expectations, you do have to understand that when you cause conflict in your WW that is a GOOD thing. Don't make things easier for her to be away from you. Always make sure that you are telling her that you know that you can have a great marriage and that you will not continue like this forever. No relationship talk, like placing blame etc.

You are doing well, just get that Plan A ramped up.

We are going to counseling together for two reasons. One is hopefully to work on the marriage; I'll find that out Tuesday. The second is to hopefully get her to go to IC. She really needs to work on her self-esteem issues. They have been a big problem in our marriage. I don't think she would go on her own; maybe if we go to joint, he can work on her issues, or convince to to come for IC. My last IC, we talked about her issues, they way her mother abused her, and what that did to US. So he is aware of it and can hopefully work on it.

Have you read the info that DrH has about counseling? His thoughts are that MC TOGETHER is a BAD idea. Also, MC with an ACTIVE wayward is POINTLESS. Your WW is most likely just going to placate you. That way when she leaves she can say, "I TRIED. We went to MC and it just didn't work."

Are you waiting to hear from the MC that you SHOULD reconcile? You know that a MC isn't going to tell you that you should or shouldn't right? Besides, "traditional" MC have a HUGE failure rate. I think it is somewhere around 84%. And their own marriages have a much HIGHER Divorce rate than the average.

Scotty,
This MC doesn't do that(advising reconciliation or not). He believes, much like MB, that you should work on yourself to be the best person you can. He talks to each person separately about their feelings and problems. He believes that some marriages shouldn't be saved and sometimes couples are better off going their own way. He also follows a lot of the same principals of UA and recreation time with your spouse. I've only been to him once for joint, and once for IC, but he seems a good fit for what I am getting from MB.

DrH doesn't suggest digging into the past though. He suggests creating a great marriage from today on. Also, did you see the part where I said that it was a waste of time with an active wayward. You get this right? Your WW is still active. Plan A. No relationship talk. You are in PLan A right? Then I would say Buh Bye to MC until you can get your WW on board with recovery.

So I called the wife last night to ask about her swim meet. I told her about Burgerfest (we live in Hamburg, birthplace of the hamburger). She knew nothing about it because she doesn't get the paper anymore. I invited her to join me in walking around; she refused of course. She is still avoiding me, but I am still trying to meet her ENs. I hope I can continue to do this for a while; it is disheartening. But I know I need to have a good Plan A before I go to Plan B.

You are still going and you are taking at least one of your sons right? You are going to have fun and you will say, "I missed you at Burgerfest tonight, remember that time when we......(insert story here)." THIS is what Plan A is all about. Go have some fun(even if you have to fake it). I remember the feeling of not wanting to have fun and of thinking that there could never be joy in my life again. Just go do it.

I'm going to go. I may take the sons, or go and see adult friends and hang out. It is a fun time with live music, if nothing else it is a chance to get out and forget for a little while.

have fun and remember it's all about being patient and showing the side of you which she fell in love with in the first place......
You are doing great, don't take it personally if she refuses for now.......foggy

So wife texted me and told me she was going to church tomorrow and said I could go if wanted to but she wouldn't sit with me because it would be too awkward. I replied that Younger son and I were already planning on going and that she doesn't have to sit with me, but I would like it. I did tell her if I see her I will tell her hi.

I went to Burgerfest and saw some friends. Is it an LB or a bad Plan A to tell her I enjoyed myself, but I would have enjoyed it more with her?

How could this be a lovebuster to tell her this?

How Do I handle this? I texted her after church and said I missed her in church and that I enjoyed myself at Burgerfest, but I would have enjoyed it more if she were with me. This is what I got back from her:
"You need to stop. I left church so not to see you. I can not handle the pain of seeing you sitting where I have sat forever with the friends I have worshipped with. I will not be returning to church any time soon. I though I was stronger, but you have broken me down and I can't go any lower."

Now I didn't know that was supposedly her spot. Younger son and I sat in one spot, and friends of ours called us over to sit with them. I didn't think that she sat with these people, I will have to ask them and find out. I am not trying to chase her away or make her feel bad, I just want to go and see friends and get some feeling of hope and joy. I especially thought it would be okay when she texted me last night and told me it was okay. I think this is just her low self-esttem manifesting itself again, but how do I respond in a positive, love bank filling way?

She is just angry because she thought things would be a lot easier when she moved out, you did nothing wrong, I would text her back and say..

"I'm so sorry you feel that way, and I would have loved it if you had sat next to us today at church, the people still love you and care about you, and so do I."

She is still a wayward, and she will keep blaming you for her misery, what she needs to do is be more humble, because that text you got from her clearly states she is NOT!

GOOD LUCK

SR,
I texted her that this morning with a little added on, but no response. Like you said, she is a wayward and I expect to be blasted in an e-mail later today. I took the boys over to the friends house I sat with at church for some hot dogs and conversation and they had some very interesting insight and info on WAW and their perception of her the last few years. I am more convinced than ever she needs to get some serious help before I can think of reconciliation; for both my sake and the boys'.

Meh, she's proably more afraid of burning to a cinder when, as an aldulteress, she steps into church. I know gossip and stuff at church runs around churches rampantly, and the congregation would probably roast her with their eyes.

I thought SR was depressed, bi-polar, or something. In reality, she was just doing exactly what waywards do. Now that we are reconciling our marriage, I know she does not have those problems. I'm glad I did not lean on her metality as an excuse because all waywards act crazy. After your wife gets out of the fog, then determine if she needs serious help (you should be doing MC after the affair anyhow). Right now she is doing exactly what waywards do, and that is being mental.

Wheels,
She has been exhibiting signs of depression and self-esteem issues ever since we were married. It took me until recently to see how this effected our marriage. Talking to my counselor helped me see the problems this has caused. I am hoping he can convince her to go to IC; without it I fear we will never reconcile.

Tonight we go to the MC; I'm extremely anxious over what is going to transpire. However, I am also a little worried about my changing feelings. Is it normal to begin feeling that you don't want them back and you want to move on? As I heal and repair myself I am worried that if she comes back and doesn't change that she will drive me right back into depression and our marriage will suck. I don't ever want to go back to that "me" again. My 2 most important demands are NC her EA OM, and she must get IC to deal with her issues. I don't know if she will do either, or both; but they are both deal breakers. Right now it's only been 3 weeks since she left and she is still bitter and blaming me, maybe that's why I'm feeling this way. I just am having a hard time dealing with these mixed emotions. I also love her and want her to heal and come back and make a wonderful marriage. Is this waffling normal?

I often wonder (still, 5 months later) if it was a good idea to recover the marriage, or if I should move on. I see lots of waffling here on the boards too. What I do is ignore those feelings, otherwise I might make them happen. I made a plan, a goal to recover my marriage to something better than it was to the best of my ability, and I'm sticking to my plan.

If those are your deal breakers does your WW know?

She is still wayward, even if she isn't in contact with the OM, I think she is. MC will not be that effective, she doesn't want it.

Perhaps setting up an IC time and letting her know that you care for her would be good. She might not go, she might view it as controlling, but maybe she will go. Its so unpredictable.

I wouldn't call that waffling, it stands to reason you don't want more of the same, it has to be better or it won't survive and who would want it any other way?

Well counseling was interesting and I think good. He got her to open up to some issues she has; especially about my changes and not believing in them that they are real or permanent. He also explained that a lot of the problems she had with me/ that I exhibited were not my fault, but were the result of the depression and I couldn't stop them until I got out of the depression. If I stay out of depression, then those problems will be gone. He addressed some things to me, that I think were meant for her, but that was his way of bringing them out without her feeling attacked. I am going to see him for IC next Tues. and he asked about another joint session and WAW told him that she and I will discuss it; so it may be a possibility. That could be a step forward, it depends on if we actually discuss it and if she agrees to go.

I also brought out with his encouragement that I do not want her back the way she is now because it will go back to being the same way and I don't want that. I did not say that she must get counseling herself, I hope she can figure that one out. No mention was made of her EA and that it must stop. His feeling is (IMO) that if I can make myself who I should be and who she wants, that it will die its own death. Discussing it is not part of the process, just like he told me to not talk about reconciliation or feelings. I explained to him that I already know that and am not bringing it up at all. I just didn't tell him the source was this wonderful site and the Harleys' books.

So how long do I wait before I call her about another joint session. Should I give her a day to digest everything from yesterday and call her tomorrow?

2 steps forward, one step back. So after I thought some progress was made in the counseling session, we go backwards again. After the session, I told her younger son was going to swim for the country club team she coaches. She goes "that's news, I wasn't planning on going". So I took him to the country club and stayed to watch the meet. She shows up so I leave the immediate pool area and go watch from the other side of the fence so as not to be in her space. After it is over she comes up to me and says she has some papers for me. I ask her if she had the address changed on the credit card and she blows up at me. I tell her I enjoyed watching her coach and be happy and laughing with her swimmers and that I missed that. She snaps and says "I'm always like this (lie) and you never wanted to come." I replied that with the depression I never wanted to do anything. She then tears into me that she can't leave the house because every where she goes people feel sorry for me because she left me and say poor hubby and that she's a [censored] for leaving me. Did I do anything wrong, or is this just wayward fog and vitriol?

BTW, I assume asking about another MC session is pointles for a few days. I may wait until Mon. to ask her. I go for IC on Tues. and need to know so I can schedule it.

MC would be a waste of money unless it was with the Harleys. She is foggy and an addict and there is no point all you would be doing is making her more angry and more of your LB balance would drain away. Keep up with the IC, but forget about the MC right now. She isn't trying to recover so instead you have a DC not an MC.

Scotty,
I think you may be right. She came over to drop off a bill and started on me. One hour of talking later, with some real anger and spite and I realize just how deep she is. I think she is about to bottom out. Maybe from there she can come up, but I don't know. She still doesn't believe my depression existed/exists. She is angry over all of my changes and happiness now. She is giving up the church, she is giving up her swim team because I showed up and took away her joy. She is angry that I'm being everything she wanted for all these years. She can't see that I can be all of this for her and with her. She is still too hurt. I don't know if she can ever heal. I mentioned counseling and she said she doesn't have time. Without it she will never recover herself and we will never recover. I will not let her back unless she can heal and we can have something better, and that will not happen without IC for her.

Just keep on doing your Plan A. You are doing this for YOU. Remember that and have no expectations. You can do this. One day, this Plan A will end in a start to recovery(in 15%) or a Plan B. There will be an end though.

Have you read Limbo's thread? There is a lot of stuff on there about doing Plan A stuff while not living together. His was more of a long-distance Plan A but you could still get some good ideas.

I've read parts, but I will go back and read in its entirety. Thanks for the recommendation.

I really don't think that you took away her joy, put it in a box, and put it in the attic.

Have you ever heard of Viktor Frankl? He was a psychologist during WWII who was locked up in Auschwitz. He became famous because he learned about how humans can endure the most painful suffering by keeping in mind a good memory. He also figured that even though the concentration camp tried to make his physical domain unbearable, he could remain in a spiritual domain where he could find peace.

You can not make your wife quit coaching or whatever. That is her decision, she is the one that lets the outside environment dictate her behavior, and this is a sign of very weak integrity also.

Wheels,
I know that; I was just repeating her words. Every time I try to connect and meet her emotional needs she does this. She wants to stay angry and hurt to justify her leaving. She threatened me that within a year she will probably move away. I said that's tough to do and give up your relationships with your sons. She says she already lost them. I told her no, that younger son is angry and hurt, but he still needs his mom and give him time. She eventually went from anger and hurt, to tears of sadness (I think). At least when she left she wasn't angry anymore. I will see what tomorrow will bring.

Good, I'm glad you are just venting/updating, and I hope your feeling alright. Viktor Frankl I think is still a good example of how to look for something good during the bad times. Check him out.

Wheels,
I was actually talking to an old friend of ours yesterday after the swim meet, a former, fellow coach who was refereeing the meet of WAWs. He is a counselor and got his masters in it. He used a book for his masters called Finding Optimism that he recommended for the same philosophy. I am going to pick it up and read it.

Okay, I know that WS speak fog babble; but do you ever get used to it? I'm still worked up over our encounter last night. I know I need to let it go, but when she sees all of my changes, admits that they are great, and still is mad at me for doing them, I don't get it. She keeps throwing the depression in my face. She says because you have depression you get a free pass. I explain that I do not get a free pass. I take full responsibility for my role in the bad marriage; but now that I am working out of it, I have to be who she sees, because that is who I am. She refuses to see. I am sadly beginning to think unless she gets help we are done. That realization is trying to send me down in depression again and I am fighting it, but it is hard to watch her ruin herself and our marriage. Time to go do something to fight the thoughts. Thank god for gym membership!

It's been a couple months since I have heard fog babble, but what was said way back then still effects what I say and do right now. It sticks with me, and I will think "Oh, sapph gets angry when I ask her to to help with the house hold chores." I get confused, does she just really hate doing house chores, or was it fog babble. I have to walk up to Sapph and ask if what she said five months ago was true or babble. Most times its babble, but I have to reassure myself.

Thanks for the support; it just is hard hearing it. I know she is hurt and angry and in the fog, but you have to wonder if it's true when you hear it.

Okay weird question. Is it normal to want to start wearing my wedding ring again? I've read where people have dilemmas when to take it off. I don't wear mine much during the school year, because as a chemistry lab teacher some of the chemicals will react with gold and ruin it. I stopped wearing it permanently when the wife took hers off. As I'm healing from the depression and dealing with my problems, I have this feeling of hope for the marriage. Even if the wife is wayward, I want to wear it again as a symbol of our marriage and our commitment. Is this bad for my psyche, or a good thing?

I teach electrical engineering.

When I was a technician I met a colleague whose finger had been burned off through working between two conductors (low voltage -high current)

I don't wear any jewelry nor did my dad, hence the ring stays in the cupboard.

I understand not wearing it for safety or finality reasons, but is wanting to wear it a means of hope, or bad for my psyche?

You are still married so I see no harm in wearing it, esp. since it is a sign of your commitment to your marriage. Of course it will make her angry but then what doesn't anymore? You can't let her dictate your moves, you have to do what you feel is the right thing to do.

If it poses a danger at work, wear it on a chain around your neck. It'll be even closer to your heart that way.

Princess,
I like your thought. If we reconcile I think I will do that. Right now, there is no lab for summer school, so that is not a worry right now. When regular school starts in Sept. I will have to remember that. KC, you're right it will probably make her angry, but it might also show her I am still committed to US. I am getting so down with her reactions right now, it might give me some hope and shield from her fog babble.

Well I just talked to the wife. She called to tell me she was going up to our neighbor's cottage to see them for 2 days (the same neighbors she swore she would never see again because they are my friends). I asked her about another MC session and she replied "why bother if all we are going to do is bring up the past and the hurt." She said she's only been gone 2.5 weeks (actually one month) and she still needs time to heal and get past the hurt. She is tired of the counselor telling her my behavior was because of the depression and she should not blame me for it. I said depression is no reason for me to treat you the way I did and I take full responsibility for it. I left it at I'm going to continue my IC and if you want to go for joint counseling let me know I would be happy to go with you. She said that she is past all her problems and doesn't need IC; but we should all go as a family so she can work on her problems with the boys, especially the little one.

My lawyer just called me. After telling me she wants nothing and she is giving me a great deal, the separation paperwork says she is screwing me royally. Guess it's time for my lawyer to get ugly. She wants more for the house than we have in equity. She wants support payments 250/week) and life insurance on me(500k) payable only to her for 8 years at the exclusion of any spouse I may have in the future. She wants any back pay I may get from the contract dispute. She wants a portion of my pension. She wants to pay me nothing for child support even though they are with me full time. This after telling me again on Thurs. that she is giving me a great deal and I would be stupid not to take it. That she doesn't want to cause me any harm and does not want me to lose the house and traumatize the boys.

take care of yourself financially, you don't want to regret that later down the road if the marriage doesn't work out.....
You can always change that after your marriage is back on track, she expects you to look after yourself....
My husband and I drew up a separation agreement when I found out about his affair, that left me with the house and he was to pay me alimony, we have split our investments and I have bought him out of the house.....we have separate accounts and credit cards.......we have been working on recovering our marriage but still live with the agreement and we will until i feel totally comfortable again in this marriage and his commitment to me and our marriage. It's odd I know but since he wanted a second chance he is living with it and not even asking for anything else. he knows he has changed things for us and it's just the way it will be now.........dont' give up awokenhubby, you can live with anything and work on getting back together.....that's what I did and he eventually saw what and who he was giving up......the OW all of a sudden wasn't worth giving up his whole life for and he now has told me he never stopped loving me and totally regrets his decisions, he told me he wants to spend the rest of his life making things up to me..........don't give up hope, I thought my marriage was gone too..........

Pretty amazing, huh? She can "want" away, it's not up to her to decide, fortunately. She'll probably be entitled to 1/2 the equity of the house and 1/2 of what is in the pension, and perhaps some alimony if she doesn't make as much as you...but perhaps not either if they figure she can be self-supporting and she initiated the divorce and cheated...she'll likely have to pay some child support, but all of that is for the courts to decide, not her. It may be her lawyer talking, but even so...

As for life insurance, here, the law nullifies being a beneficiary after a divorce unless the spouse specifically states/desires it afterwards. That is to protect those who divorce and forgot to change their policy beneficiary.

Ok, I need some help, encouragement, or even 2x4s. If someone could have the big guns come read the last few posts and give me advice, I would appreciate it. Counseling helped me a lot after the bomb from my lawyer/sister. She has now said that it is getting ugly and she is stepping aside and setting me up with a well practiced divorce lawyer. The problem is, I am now so bitter that I want to stop Plan A and go to divorce. I am hurt from her saying all along she wants nothing and doesn't want to hurt me and wants to make sure I can keep the house for the sake of the boys and I get this from her now. I also suspect that she went to her lawyer and laid this out on either the day of our MC or the day after. That is why she went after me last thurs. after the swim meet. She is now talking about moving out of state and abandoning any relationship with her boys. This has sent me down and I can feel the depression coming on again. I am aware of it and fighting it. I talked to the counselor about it after my IC session yesterday and he recommended a treatment to me. It is not prescription anti-depressants, but it has be researched for 40 years and has as good and sometimes better results that meds. and it works faster, but it still won't begin helping for 2 weeks (meds take 4+ weeks). as I talked with the counselor and we discussed the problems in our marriage, he kept asking why do you want to stay with this woman. I replied that I love her and made the vow and commitment to her and want to stay with the woman she was and could be again if she gets help. He told me that for her to be there again, she needs professional help for a long time. He has seen her type before and he doesn't know if she will ever admit it and get help. I am hoping if she can hit rock bottom she will get help and we can recover. But after this settlement proposal and her lying to me about not wanting anything, I am whipped and beat down. I want out and I want the pain to go away. I want to start recovering myself and my boys. I know it is the depression coming back on and I am trying to shake it, but am I wrong. Everything I have done in Plan A has been met with escalating hostility and resentment. She resent the fact that I didn't fall flat on my face without her. She resents the fact that I was clinically depressed and had a reason for ignoring her. She resents the fact that I had recover so much(until this last week and a half, thanks to her) and I am everything she wanted me to be. If I am everything she wanted me to be, then why can't we try?!? I know she is still in the fog. I know she has only been moved out a month and she is still angry and hurting and lonely. I know she is still in contact with her emotional affair OM. But it is getting very hard to take. HELP!

Okay, before you retaliate or lash out at her...IF you still want to save the marriage, it's time to go to plan B. Have you read up on it and have you got it ready? If so, please post it. Plan B is about protecting your love for your wife. It is cutting off all contact with her, no longer meeting her needs...it gives her an idea of what life will be like without you...and from what I've observed, it usually has more affect than plan A, which they either don't believe or want to see. It means having an intermediary for your children to pick up/deliver them to/from her. No calls, no texts, no emails.

Please post your plan B letter to her and let some of the experts here take a look and offer suggestions before you give it to her.

Meanwhile, time to get an attorney and start protecting yourself and your boys. Remember, if she leaves you with the boys, you will need every bit of financial resources to help you with raising them...you will need to be ready to fight her and not give in just because she makes demands. You have not only yourself to fight for, but more importantly, your children. If she goes through with this, she is guaranteed to regret it at some point down the road...the only question is, will it be in time to salvage anything. Right now please don't concern yourself with her, what she says, what she feels, what she does, what she plans, YOU LOOK OUT FOR YOU AND THE BOYS!

I have only been in Plan A for 2 months, way too short for a guy. I haven't finished writing it yet. Is it okay to go to Plan B this quick? Should I wait longer or wait for her EA to end? I know that she is driving me crazy and she is ruining my love for her.

Plan A is an individual thing, the time frame is different for different people, but when you feel your love beginning to waiver, as it's sure to when your spouse is having an affair and attacking you, that is the time to begin plan B to protect the love.

Plan B is to protect any love you have left for her from being destroyed. It's also to protect any love she may have for you from being destroyed when your Taker completely revolts based because of Plan A. Sometimes, people go into Plan B after less than a month of Plan A.

That said, I'd like to share my thoughts on the depression. Today's meds work much faster than the old stuff from 20 years ago. Sometimes they take 4 weeks. For me, they kick in within 4 days. That said, exercise has proven as effective as medication when combined with talk therapy. If your treatment is anything that you ingest, like St. Johns' Wort, I suggest you get a psychiatrist to help monitor you if your counselor isn't one. Supplements can have side effects and people react differently to different substances. For example, I cannot take Xanax. It causes depression in me. My GP prescribed it after my H died, and he couldn't believe that it made me a worse mess. BUT, my friends in pharma said it has been documented to have that effect on a small percentage of people. I learned my lesson and I don't take any pscyho anything without checkign with my psychiatrist.



Meanwhile, you can get a divorce lawyer to help protect yourself. Try not to take the property division personally. Saving your marriage is personal. Divorce, or protecting against divorce, is business.

Well, I talked to the wife. We got into it a little, but I also saw some progress. She said all those things were in there because her lawyer told her she's entitled to them and she had to put them in. She even objected to a few of them. I told her that's okay, that I have to protest them and counter. She said that she wasn't going to take the alimony but put right back into the account. I said intentions are good, but if it's in the papers, you can keep it and not do that. I have to protect myself and the boys.

She also said that she sees the changes in me and is impressed and she's trying to let that effect her, but she is still in pain. She also said that she never completely denied going back to MC, just wait another month for her to heal. She also said she was going to go to IC when the summer is over and she is not working 65 hrs/week to support herself. That is more promising things in 1/2 hour than I have heard since Feb. when this started; or in the last 10 years. I am encouraged, especially about the IC for her because that is the only way I will take her back. I said that to her and that is when she mentioned her going to IC after swim season is over. But I am still going to protect myself and my boys financially. I am going to counter everything and fight for child support. It's nice that she said she wouldn't keep it, but I need it all in writing!

KC, thanks. Greengables thanks for reading my thread and putting in your 2 cents. My counselor is actually a PhD. biochemist who used to do cancer research. He realized that after they fixed the body, the mind was still in need of repair. So he went and got his masters and cert. in counseling to help the cancer patients and then went wholly into counseling and got out of the research. He recommended SAMe, it is a compound that has been researched since the 70's and found to have great effects on depression, it has been given thorough blind studies and scientific research and is not just another supplement with hype. As for the exercise, I'm doing it in spades. I workout at the gym 3 times a week for 2 hours and then every other day I ride 40-45 miles on my bike. I take Sundays off to rest. I have lost 56 pounds as of yesterday and want to keep losing. I was always built large and the extra weight wasn't hugely noticeably, but the weight loss and body building is vastly noticeable and is helping my psyche.

Hey A-Wok,

Good response. If it's put into the agreement, that is what she gets. And that is what she keeps. Remember that alimony is taxable income to her (and deductible to you), so from a tax return perspective, I wouldn't do the revolving cash door thing.

TBC

Okay, so after our phone conversation, she comes over to check on the dog like I asked her to because she is taking him for the weekend. I am out shopping for younger son and my rugby tournament/camping trip. She then texts me and says that she is paying the tire bill and part of the dentist bill for her. "She will make a copy of the bill and check and drop it off. she then says to breathe deep and hang in there. We can work out details with lawyers without hurting each other." "Try to have a good weekend and drive safe. If meds are not good tell your Dr. PLEASE!" This is the first time in 3 months that she has actually been nice and showed concern for me. Is she trying to lull me into a sense of complacency now that I am getting tough on finances and legal stuff, or is this her having some stirrings because I showed her that I have a set and won't tolerate her games?

The "working out details with lawyers" line seems to carry more weight than the "meds" line. At least that's how it looks way out here in the cheap seats.....

I don't think these are stirrings -- at least not in the sense of moving back towards the M.......

Sorry, but just my take.....

TBC

I think you're right TBC. I don't think she is ready to work on the marriage yet. She still hasn't realized what she lost. She lamented to me that I am not a single parent. That I could call her and ask her to do the grocery shopping or run the boys someplace, or take them to an appointment. She doesn't get the whole you moved out and left us, so you don't get to play mom anymore. Younger son is very mad at her and at this point he overheard me talking to my lawyer about her lawyer's proposal and doesn't even want to talk to her. She is mad that I am saying that I am a single parent and have to run the house and take care of everything. When I said "well I am" she said "now you know how I felt". She still hasn't realized that it will be this way permanently.

You ARE single parenting and no, one spouse cannot call the other to do this and that, they must learn to live independent lives when they separate. It could be that she is being nice out of a sense of guilt, but I wouldn't try and analyze it, you can drive yourself nuts with it and still not come up with any answers...it is what it is. You are doing well to realize you need to get everything worked out in a legal contract because you cannot rely on anything a divorcing spouse says.

You say she still hasn't realized it will be that way permanently. That is part of what plan B is about...helping them to see how it will be...it does give them a chance to really think about that before making it permanent.

awokenhubby, here is an MB thread which you might find interesting. Apologies if you've already seen it:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279757&page=1

Exactly! Thanks for digging that up...great point made. I think they actually have a better chance of seeing clearly if you cut them off...otherwise they seem to just cake eat and live in fantasy world.

My ex...he quit his job, went missing, stuck me with all the bills, I filed a missing person's report, they found him living with (another) OW in OUR new motor home! I never even got to spend one night in it...but I had to pay for it since my name was on it.
He actually had the audacity to say "You didn't have to go and get a divorce..."
???
Oh, didn't I? It's just how they think...
He called me after the divorce and wanted me to help him file unemployment, look for work, do books for his impending business, yada yada yada. Right.

Hey awoke been out of town for two weeks, just barely caught up on your thread.

Have you thought about when you are going into plan B? I know when you got the papers from her lawyer what she wanted after the divorce triggered you a little bit, and I don't blame you, but you have to remember that actions speak louder then words, even though she is being nice to you don't pay attention to it, don't believe it, what YOU DO BELIEVE is her ACTIONS! Believing her words will only give you false hope that you can save your marriage. Then when you finally see what she is truly doing it will be too late.

I suggest you start and finish your plan B letter, post it here so we can help you with it, find a date either next week or in 2 weeks and if she hasn't changed her mind that she wants to fix the marriage, and still doesn't konw what she wants, then give her the letter, don't listen to her when she says "give me another month" bla bla bla that is just another lie.

Good luck!

Hey all,
Thanks for all the advice. I just got back from a 4 day rugby weekend with my son and his friend. I had a great time both playing and camping and bonding with my son. It felt awesome to be able to play that way again after losing 55 pounds. It also gave me a chance to rejuvenate mentally. I am ready to give it some more time in plan A, I do see some movement on her part. She texted me a few times while I was gone to tell me about what she was doing. She called me on the way home to tell me something about my older son and then chatted for 10 more minutes about her weekend and she asked about mine, something she hasn't done in probably 6 months. She took my older son out to dinner while we were driving home, and then dropped him off when I was home and got out and chatted with me for about 0.5 hours. I fixed her bike tire for her and gave her some tools to carry with her to try to meet her needs. She told me about some shirts she saw for the slimmer me and said she was going to pick them up for me, but she wanted me to pick them out myself. I may ask her to come with me and give me her opinion on them; she always dressed me well and it would give us some time together! I wonder if she is going to counseling without telling me. When I had the blowout with her about the lawyer's letter before I left, she tried some counseling techniques to settle the situation, something she has never done before, like she just learned it. She actually calmed herself down and me as well and we continued our conversation. The texts, phone call, and personal visit today were all positive and upbeat. So maybe I'm delusional, but I see some progress in our relationship.

Mulan,
I just read the link you gave, Thanks. I keep telling my ex-wife it won't be that way. I have said I am a single parent and must meet all of both sons' needs. I can not rely on you if we are separating, you are not part of this household. So maybe this is having something to do with the change in her position towards us. She seems to trying to be part of us, now I need to see if this is her trying to debate coming back or just being a cake eater. I will see what August brings in terms of progress and decide about plan B then, unless something happens before then to make me decide one way or the other. I am moving ahead with the separating the financial and untangling our lives from each other like the car insurance, the cell phone, and the house. I am moving ahead with a new lawyer and a counter offer to her lawyer's offer. I will keep working on us and meeting her needs and trying to deposit in the LB, but also plan for ending it and going to plan B. The depression meds may not have had time to kick in yet, it's only been 5 days, but the weekend was as therapeutic as meds and I am in a good place again to continue for a little longer and see what it can bring about.

The vibe I get is that she has the idea that you guys will be friends after you D. This is all smoke and mirrors to assuage her guilt. It�s her way of saying, �See, we can be friends afterall.�

It�s cake eating so long as the A isn�t over.

Helpthelostdads,
That is why I am making sure she knows the way it will be and refusing any of her help. Either we are married and a couple or we have no relationship. If it doesn't work under one roof, it doesn't work as just friends. I don't know how exes can be that way. If you can make it work as friends, you can definitely make it work as spouses!

Hey A-Wok,

The 'Fantasy Divorce' thread is very valuable and insightful. I've said in the past that there are many ways to skin a cat (or save a M), and one of them is sending a torpedo straight into the S.S. Fantasy Divorce.....

You seem to have a pretty good handle on the concept. That's good.

Hang in there.

TBC

Fixing her bike tire and having her pick out your clothes is not showing her the way it will be. You're enabling her cake-eating fantasy.

I think it is totally fine to do those things together that make the marriage better. Stuff together that makes you both happy, fufilling needs, don't forget POJA and PORA also. This is what happy married couples do that do not have any sign of an affair.

WARNING: Don't forget about the stick of Plan A. (That is how I read kay's post above). It is very easy to get into a plan A rut where there is carrot and no stick. We call it plan doormat where you enable the WS to cake eat.

Thanks both KC and wheels. It seems to be a fine line between the two sides. Any idea on how to stay on one side and avoid the stickless, cake eating, enabling ways? I thought that because she wants to ride and couldn't get the tire off herself, I was showing her what she will be missing without me, as well as meet her needs. The clothes part was a way of getting us to spend time together so we could interact. With her moved out, we don't do that and I am trying to make opportunities so she can see the "new" me. I haven't done anything else for her, especially when it comes to her apartment or her private life, so I didn't think I was doing a plan doormat.

So I came home from the gym last night and the wife was in my house. She brought home the little one from the swim championships and claimed she was waiting for his friend to come over so she could see him and to check her Facebook because she can't afford internet. I didn't want to make a scene and tell her to leave, nor did I want to put the younger son in the position of telling her she can't come in. It is his mother. How do I deal with this?

just thank her for getting him home safe and that you could take it from here, just go on with what you were planning to do......
Tell her have a good evening and that you will talk to her soon, just like any other person that was returning your son to you.......
Be separated like she wants, let her feel the lack of support from you......this is what you want.....
Life like she wants now......not being able to rely on you, on her own........

Wheels:
However, I thought the discussion was about him going to Plan B to safeguard his love for her, reading from the previous few posts... In Plan B it's total darkness and you let them fend for themselves. Think about it, she gets to have an EA (if not a full blown PA) AND have her husband rescue her whenever she runs into a problem, blows a tire, etc. Let me know where I can sign up for such a deal! In my mind, a separation means SEPARATION, not that you can come back and forth at will. I would change the locks and let her know this is no longer her home until such time as she chooses to be a full time wife.

Are there any lawyers from New York on this forum? I am trying to get advice about how the change to the new no fault will effect my situation and I am trying to find a good lawyer in the Buffalo area. I am afraid that my WAW will pull back her divorce papers and re-file under the new law to get more from me.

KC,
I was very down in the dumps last Tues. after my lawyer got her lawyer's separation proposal. But after talking to my counselor and to my wife and had some time to settle down, I am not at that same point. I am willing and able to go a longer in Plan A to give her some more time to see and appreciate my changes. I was just in a bad way and over-reacting to the whole legal thing. Now I realize that this is part of the process and I can't let it get to me or let it effect my plans to follow through on my attempts to get my wife back.

So has she changed the proposal yet then? If she hasn't then she WONT EVER! That to her is a good deal! So please don't believe her when she say's those things to you, she is a liar.

Sapphire,
No, she has not changed it. I think her lawyer put her up to it. Her comment was "she told me I'm entitled to it so she has to put it in there". I said there is a difference between entitled and taking it. So I don't expect it to change as long as her lawyer is pushing her buttons. I am getting a new attorney and I am countering her proposal and I want everything in the separation agreement. When I talked to her last week, she told me this is not for now, but if and when we decide to completely end it. She doesn't even understand that once the separation agreement is finished and filed that it takes effect and I must buy her out of the house and begin making payments.

What do you mean by this?

That once we come to a separation agreement of the finances and household goods, and the papers get filed, the terms take effect immediately. That means if the settlement says that I keep the house, but must pay her 1/2 of the equity in the house and that I must give her maintenance, then once it is filed these terms take effect and I must start them immediately upon filing the agreement. They do not take effect at the finality of the divorce, but upon the filing of the separation agreement. So if I have to refinance the house to remove her from the mortgage, I have to do it now, not when we are divorced. So even if we reconcile, the house is completely mine and her name is not on it; I bought out her share of it. If we do reconcile and I had to buy her out, I will be reluctant to put her name back on it in case she wants to do this again.

I know a great firm in Williamsville if you are interested.

I am interested. My sister/lawyer has been reading on the ramifications of the new no-fault divorce law and the potential to screw husbands is amazing. I could go from paying 7 years of maintenance to 21 years, the full term of the marriage! It does not take effect yet, but I worry that her lawyer will pull back the current divorce papers and then re-file under the new law. I need to find out if we have a separation agreement, but no divorce yet, if she can still do that. I may have to counter sue for divorce so mine is still on the books so it applies even if she pulls hers.

Again, I may be grasping at straws, but I see more positives. When she was over the house the other night, she was talking about my new body and she said "I know you aren't going to get that big again", this is the first time in our marriage that she has said that instead of put me down and say things like "we'll see how long this lasts". She has also called/seen me everyday since I got back from vacation. Even if it is just to talk about the boys and then she talks about some other things as well. This is more than she has done with me in months, even before she announced her plans to leave.

GOOD! So when you start plan B she will finally know what it will feel like to lose you

If she has consulted a lawyer, he has most likely advised her of the new rule change. You can always pull the divorce of the table if things work out. Tough call!!

I don't know if I can give my email address on this form but will try so I can give you the info in confidence. eamherst14051@gmaildotcom ............ I know several of the attorneys both professionally and personally. We were directors in our local Babe Ruth Baseball league with our kids.

It's good that you're looking out for yourself even while trying to save the marriage. WSs tend to blame things on lawyers yet they do not have to do what the lawyers say, the truth is they want everything they can get and will go for it.
Even if you end up back together, I'd keep the house in your own name. Is NY a community property state? Yes, if it protects you to counter sue, I'd do so. Get a good attorney's advice!

My wife came over Thurs. to drop off food from her swim banquet and see my younger son. I saw her phone was breaking at the hinge and offered her my old phone because I just got a new one. She flipped out on me and said I don't want your second hand stuff. We ended up getting into it for an hour. I kept calm and tried to calm her down every time she got angry. Some good came out of it, but it also made her upset. The next day was my birthday and she texted me to wish me a happy birthday and said she sent me an e-mail. In this e-mail she was completely crazy. She said that the last 1.5 weeks I showed her my true feelings when I flipped out about her lawyers' proposed settlement. That she is withdrawing everything and not taking everything. That I have bullied her into caving again, and on and on. She is so unstable that she flips back and forth. She talks about how she misses everything and how her current life sucks, she shows me positive emotions and feelings she hasn't in months, and then she flips and becomes angry and fabricates reactions/emotions/statements that weren't there. I know if she would go get counseling help, she would become stable and think clearly and we could have a chance, but how do I get her to go? I know that I can't say or suggest it, but the way she is going, even if we don't reconcile, she will lead a miserable, lonely, angry life and I don't want that for her. I still love her and want to help her and see her happy.

Awoken,
I know that you genuinely love her. And I know that her moods are all over the place. Try to not focus on what she says or does and more on what YOU are learning and doing. Trust that this program works to ensure an ultimately better life than the one you had. She is responsible for herself and you are responsible for yourself. You cannot change her. Try to remember what YOU are responsible for and let go of what SHE is responsible for. I know this is hard. You are still in Plan A but it might not hurt to get Plan B ready and run it by here just so it's ready when you need it.

You can't, MC won't fix her because she is a wayward, MC are really good at fixing other issues in marriage, but not infidelity. Sorry, just keep working your plan A and have your plan B letter ready, have you written it yet? If not then I would advise you to do so.

Are there any good links for a sample Plan B letter?
I want to start getting mine ready and post it here for input before I send it to her.

After some discussion with friends about my wife and our separation, I have come to figure out the main problem. She is behaving irrationally. One moment she is connecting with me and I see some progress and hope. The next time she is taking everything that happened and turns it around into a negative and is making things up. She isn't thinking straight. She is talking about selling her car and living on the streets because she can't make ends meet. She draws up a separation agreement trying to get more than she deserves and then she tells me she is going to go to her lawyer this week and withdraw everything and not ask for anything. She tells me she is going to go off my health insurance and pay for the cheap, no frills insurance offered by the government. She needs help and maybe meds to get her to an even kilter. Until then there is no hope for us, or her and she will never have a good life either with or without me. This makes me sad for her and us because there is nothing I can do about it.

My husband thought I had bi-polar

Your wife does not need medication, she needs to get that thick fog out of her face.

She is a wayward, they ALL seem mental!

The question you need to ask yourself is how long can I continue plan A? How long do I have the strength? 1 week? 2 weeks? 24 hours?

Once you decide start writing your plan B letter. Post it on your board so we can help.

Are there any good threads with some Plan B letters on them. I want to write mine and have it ready. I am thinking the end of the month might be the time to go to Plan B, depending on what happens in the next 3 weeks.

Sapphire, I would agree with you about it all being the fog except that now that I am out of my depression fog, I see instances of her instability for years. She insists her mother is bipolar and she told stories how her grandmother was mental. Plus friends and family have pointed out instances of her swings going back 5-10 years.

Ya let me find you a plan B letter from a different post.

Here is a sample of a plan B letter to which you can change some wording if you'd like.

Dearest WW,

I am so sorry our marriage has come to this. I recognize my part in our relationship that created an environment where you became vulnerable to another man's attentions.

I have learned to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past, and am constantly working to find better ways to resolve conflict between us. I want to create a new life for both of us that meets both our needs and creates a loving home for our children. But we cannot do that until you end all contact with OM once and for all, and commit to having him out of our lives completely.

Until then, I hope you will understand when I say that I cannot see you or talk to you anymore. IM has agreed to be our intermediary, and she/he will help in making it easy for you to see your children, as we discussed. Our only contact should be in the case of emergency about the children.

Please understand my decision to separate from you this way. It is too painful for me to live with you any longer as long as you are also with him and do not want to have a marriage with me. I love you very much, and need to preserve that love so that I will still want to recover our marriage when you end your affair. I ask that until you are ready to end your affair with OM and focus on our marriage and family, you leave our home.

The way back home is simple: end all contact; be completely transparent with me with your phone, emails, and time; be truly repentant for the damage you caused; and, commit to rebuilding our marriage.

I look forward to the day when we can begin to rebuild our family and begin the rest of our lives together as a family. I want nothing more than to be your partner through life, and your best friend and confidante in all matters - you have always been mine. We can have a stronger marriage built on trust, love, honesty, and teamwork.

I loved you from the day I met you and I continue to love you right up to this moment. I hope for and look forward to a time when we can begin a new marriage with each other.

Love,

Here is another one from another thread:
My Dear Sue,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with Greg possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with Greg once and for all.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially. Our friends Jane and Paul have agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children whenever you would like. But I will not be here when you visit. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through Jane and Paul.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with Greg, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are with him. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from Greg and are willing to follow the measures that were suggested to ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing Greg.

With my love,
Jon

KC and Sapphire, thanks! It gives me something to work on. I will have to edit it to fit my circumstances. She is still texting OM, but I think that is it; she doesn't have internet and just got her computer back this weekend. It is only a series of 4 texts once a week, but she hasn't contacted him in 7 days. She still says it is only innocent friendship and there is nothing to it, but as long as she contacts him she will have that emotional attachment and can't think straight. I truly believe that she needs serious counseling to help with her erratic, irrational behavior and interpretations of all things to deal with me. That will also somehow be worded in without making it accusatory. I will start on this after next week; I have to finish summer school and the state exam scoring.

I would take out that line, that first line, that says you accept responsibility for creating an environment conducive to the affair. IMO, it sounds like you're taking responsibility to the affair, and she will latch onto that like nobody's business.

Karma, I do take responsibility for my depression and lack of a relationship with her to make her feel alone. I have said that to her and anyone else who knows about our separation. I do not accept any responsibility for her affair, that is totally her.

That's why I said that, rework that first line to sound LESS like that, accept responsibility for neglecting her needs (which you admit that you have), and not the affair.

But then, you've understood that already.

This was just a sample letter I borrowed from another thread. It should be reworded to be more fitting to your situation.

This irrational behavior is driving me nuts! Yesterday she picked up my son to take him shopping for school clothes. She calls me and tells me she found some nice polos for me and picked them up for me! Today she texts me and asks me if she can still have my old phone. The one I offered to her last Thurs. that set her off and started the discussion in our driveway. She said she might come pick it up after work. The roller coaster ride is sure an exciting time. I just wish I knew how to make it stop and get her to an even keel. Oh well I'm in it for the long haul and I see some progress. Two steps forward and one back.

It sounds like she has been manipulating you, whether intentionally or not, with her mood swings...make a conscious effort not to let her. Remain even keeled and do not respond to her swings. Remain reasonable and set the example and let the rest go. Good luck! Remember to focus on doing the right things and don't worry about what she does/doesn't do unless it affects the health and safety of the kids.

Well back up the hill again. My oldest son didn't come home last night. He was out and didn't feel well and fell asleep in his car. I called wife to ask her if she heard from him. Well in the morning we started calling and looking for him and found him at friends. After teaching, I had her come over to talk about it. She was at the house for an hour and we were very civil and talked about other things as well. No harsh words, no arguing. Later she came by with some juice that the boys like that she picked up. I know she shouldn't, but I'm trying to be nice. Then she called me from the store and said she found some great pants for my new body. So I took the son and went to the shore and I tried on pants and shirts for her and let her give her opinion. It was a chance to spend some time with her and let her see the new me. Then when younger son and I went to gym to work out, she was there, but I don't think she saw us. Overall it was a pleasant day with good interaction and no LBs.

She texted me last night about coming over to walk the dog this morning. Now after telling me since she moved out she doesn't have to tell me what she is doing and I don't own her (I never did), she tells me she is going for a run right after she texts, and tells me he plans for the day today. I see it as her trying to communicate again, but we will see how long before the roller coaster drops again.

Hi there awokenhubby,
don't read to much into anything she does, she is not accountable to you any more, but remember neither are you.....
Just try to make some nice enjoyable memories together, like the shopping day, spending some time together.....
Look good, smell good, stay busy, have plans to be with friends......
Let her see you enjoying life without her in every plan......be the man she dreams of.........patience is the name of the game now.....

I know Jessi. But when she has been intentionally not doing them and now she is, it is hard not to read into it. But I am also a realist, I know this could be an act. It could be a moment of lucidity before she goes into the fog again. I am not expecting this to be the start of anything, but making observations of changes. If they continue, and she agrees to do something with me, then maybe. Until then it is just her erratic behavior.

well previously you were always there to fulfill her ENs, and OM was taking care of the others. Now you are not available all the time, and she notices. She wants you to fulfill her ENs again, and the OM may still be taking care of some. This has nothing to do with you. It is all her and her selfish desires.

You are still trying a Plan A with her outside of the house right? Plan A is more effective with the WS in the house. This is a plan doormat from my perspective. She has no reason to budge in any direction.

Wheels,
I agree...I was afraid it'd be enabling her cake eating. I think he's already shown her what a wonderful person he is...I think it's time to Plan B but it'd better be a good one, complete and utter darkness, for her to miss him. Sometimes they need to see what they'll be missing in order to want it. But it's up to Awoken...

Wheels, I am worried about that as well. I don't want her to be a cake eater and enable her. I do want to see if her behavior toward me increases. If not and I see no progress, then I will be convinced she is on the fence. I am still writing the Plan B letter and will have it ready to post next week after final exams for summer school. If I see no progress, then it is time to go to Plan B. I know that Plan A is only 15% successful so I am not holding out hope. I am setting up consultations for a new lawyer and am I responding to her settlement proposal. I am preparing for the battle, while hoping to prevent it. She has said that she needs time to heal, and maybe this last month with little contact has helped. I am almost in a Plan A/B. She usually won't answer my phone calls, and doesn't call my cell, she calls the house phone. But she is calling more. She just called to ask about if YS was working and then we talked about her running and this weekend.

KC, I am wondering the same thing about time to Plan B. I've shown her the changes and I hope shown her that they're permanent. The reason I'm still in Plan A is to let her see that this is not a trick and that my changes are real and permanent. I don't know if this is why she is communicating more with me. When we just talked I told her that I just hit 60 pounds lost and she replied very nicely "I know, I can see". I think once I get the new lawyer and finish the separation agreement, it will be time to Plan B. Legally until then she can come into the house whenever she wants and there is no guideline.

Just make sure that your plan B letter is not like 4 pages keep it short and simple but to the POINT!

It is very similar to the ones posted in my thread. It isn't more than a page. I have to polish it, but that has to wait until after next week. I have to grade final exams and final papers, proctor a state final, grade it and enter grades into the computer; all before next Friday. So this is getting a back burner until it's finished. Plus I have an IC session next week and need to interview and pick a new lawyer next week as well.

So today my wife took my younger son out to buy clothes for a wedding he's going to in two weeks. He came home and told me that she was looking for more clothes for me. She dropped him off and stayed for a few minutes and chatted. I can't figure it out. Is it guilt or some vestige of caring? Is this meeting her needs or her being a cake eater?

you are still on her mind when you aren't around, this is a good thing.....just keep being the man that loves her and that she can see herself with in the future.....
patience my friend......keep moving forward in your life, if she happens to want to stay, great, if not you are getting stronger everyday......and that is progress

You're in Plan A right? Then don't worry about what he is doing and DO what you are. Meet her needs, don't LB. It's really that simple. You Plan A until it is time for either Plan B or recovery. So, what ENs did you meet for her yesterday while she was over? Did you look good? Was the house clean? Did you meet any other ENs? I don't remember what ENs you identified as your WW's top 5. How did you meet them yesterday? How are you going to meet them today? tomorrow?

That's all that Plan A is about. No trying to figure out what your WW is doing and why because YOU WILL NEVER FIGURE IT OUT. Trying to figure out what a wayward is thinking and why is CRAZY MAKING.

Focus on YOUR ACTIONS. THAT is ALL you need to do right now.

Scotty and Jessi,
Thanks for the little 2 x 4s, I needed them. I know I can't worry about her, but it's hard. Everyone who sees me and my physical and mental changes since coming out of the depression are impressed and say that she is being crazy. I have even inspired a few friends to exercise after seeing my changes. I told them go get a divorce, it does wonders.LOL It is hard to hear all the praise and know how I screwed up and I am not like that any more and I can be everything she wanted and see it not have any effect on her. I am focusing on myself. I have an IC again this week. I am being a better father than I have ever been and really enjoying the time with both boys. The house is looking clean and the bills are all kept up. She should be able to see that I can function and do well without her. In fact when she was sitting on the porch waiting for my son to come model his outfit, I was coming back with the groceries for the week and had the meals all planned out.

You are doing great! You are taking charge of your life and taking care of the home and boys. Keep it up and try to quit wondering about what she is/isn't doing/thinking.

How are you doing?

Sorry, busy week. Final exams for summer school and grading. I have been busy. Each week gets easier, which scares me. I am afraid to find out that I don't want or need her. I still think about her and miss her, but less each week. I am continuing to work on me. I am exercising 6 times a week and have lost a total of 63 pounds. I am going to counseling to continue to work on my depression and separation; my next appointment is tomorrow. I have not spoken to or texted (given or received) from my wife in a week. If I call, she doesn't answer. If I text, she usually doesn't respond. So at this point it's tough to meet her needs. I am interviewing a new lawyer this Friday, and another one on Wed. and will have a good one before next Friday. Then things should get interesting. At that point we will begin serious work on the separation agreement and have one hammered out quickly. Then we will see what that does to her. I don't want to, I think we are rushing it and would like to slow down, but her lawyer is really pushing it.

How long are you going to Plan A? Remember, Plan B is to protect your love for her...it also helps her to see what life without you will be like.

I think it might be Plan B time at the end of the summer or when the separation agreement is in place. I'm going to play it by ear and see how things are at the start of school.

I've reviewed your posts and offer this advice, but before I do I should tell you I am now divorced (cavaet emptor). I spent a lot of time on this site and carefully read Dr. Harley's books, but it didn't work out for me. I tried as mightly as I was able. However, I believe Dr. Harley's insights are spot on. Looking back on my events, I believe I spent too much time in plan A. For whatever reason, your wife has gone whacky. It's the best way to look at it. What she's looking for is irrational, but in a weird way, you'll start to give it to her by going into plan b. It's hard on you and you do risk ending it forever, but when I finally did it (and it was really too late for me) it did result in my ww all of a sudden wanting to talk to reconnect with me. A major condition for plan b is to end the affair, which my ww never was willing to do, but she definitely missed me. It was the first indication of interest I received from her in 18 months of going through the affair and eventual divorce.

For what it's worth, don't wait too long to start plan b and show you can take her or leave her.

hww

Help W Wife, Thanks for the advice. I am able to see her texts numbers and phone calls because we share a wireless phone service. She has only called POSOM once and there have only been 4 texts exchanged either way this whole month; so I see signs of the emotional affair dying. I am moving forward with the separation agreement and when I get that finished, it is time to move to plan B. I am not going to keep Plan A going too long. In some ways we are almost in Plan B. If I text her, she doesn't respond. If I call she doesn't usually answer. If she needs to talk to me she calls the house phone, not my cell phone. She doesn't live here, so we don't see each other. the only thing left for a Plan B is the letter; which I am hoping to finish next week and post here for comments.

You can see by my information that we have some similarities. I think it's great you've lost so much weight - keep that up. Lose more weight if you need to; you will really be happy no matter which way your situation goes. As I said, I waited too long and my love was definitely gone for my ww upon entering plan B. I lost a lot of weight also and was exhausted with the entire drama during plan A. Once I entered plan B it didn't take long at all to meet other women. Once that happens, it's over. At that point, even though your ww may want to reconnect, you will be too exhausted and emotionally checked out. Everyone telling you that plan B is important to protect your emotions are dead right.

By the way, you know they could be communicating with other devices, like Skype. I wouldn't be too sure about her solitude. Also, I have to admit that I don't understand separation agreements. Plan B is too remove you from satisfying her needs; all of them. At the very most, I would tell her what the deal is, send her an agreement, and just be done with it and move into plan B.

Also, I personally would be more frank with her in your plan B letter and remove anything too sappy. I would say, "I love you, but you don't respect me or our marriage and the vows we took. I'm going to end contact with you to protect my emotions. If you need to communicate with me about the kids, then you can give ____ a note to deliver to me or send me an email. I'm not going to be your buddy or your friend, but I will be your husband. If you wish to rebuild our marriage, then it requires you to make a commitment to our marriage and end all contact with the OM forever."

Believe me, once you grow a pair after 21 years of marriage, it will feel good.

Help W wife, From your signature, it does look like we have a lot in common. Thanks for the advice, I will try to put it into the Plan B letter. I need to work on the separation agreement for financial reasons. She is going after so much of my salary that I'm not sure if I can keep the house if she gets it all and I don't want to do that to the boys. She is going after my pension and wants half of all back pay from a contract dispute. I think the money should be divided by 4, it was to be used for the family, not just her and I. So I have to fight it to protect myself. You are right about love slipping away with the WAW. I am enjoying becoming who I am both mentally and physically. I would love to share it with her, but I will move on without her as well. I have had some interest from women but I am refusing to date until things are definitely done between wife and I to keep my love for her. She cannot Skype because she has no computer at home right now, my son has it and she has not internet she can't afford it. Her work is a small, 2 person office so I doubt she can do it there. She may be able to call POS there, but I don't think she is trying to hide it because she doesn't know I know how to access her call logs.

A little advice please. I went to church and saw my wife there. I did not talk to her because she avoids my son and I. I just got an e-mail from her talking about the sermon and what it means. She talks about how I used to be a server and how my heart got hardened. She then goes on to talk about mundane things like Dr. appts. for the boys, paying bills and refinancing the house in my name alone. She talks about keeping her in the loop and how she misses her home and neighbors. I replied to her and told her of course she will be in the loop about the boys. I am doing fine about the bills and house and watching the mortgage rates. I said that I am working on getting back to who I was and better; that I miss the way I used to be. I explained that my change in personality wasn't me, but the depression; and now that I am working out of it I am now longer that way. Did I do right in my response? What does her e-mail signify? I know I can't try and understand a wayward, but she has had no contact with me in a week and then I get this e-mail that is almost sounding like she is trying to connect.

When it sinks in that they are on their way out, they begin missing things from their old life. I wouldn't pay a lot of heed to anything unless she wants to come back to you on your terms.

The wife is really concerning me. After the 1st e-mail on Sunday; I replied to her in a kind way. She then sent one back saying she is not a cold hearted [censored]. If the boys feel that way she is moving out of state and will be out of their lives forever. She said that she was mean to me for a reason.(How can you be intentionally me to your spouse and say you are working on your marriage?) She was just rambling on. Well last night she sends a text to my son and rambles on about how she tried to get help for me for years (a lie) and if he says the word she will never talk to him again. How she completely hates her life. She admits how bad it sucks, but she can't think about anything but moving on with the divorce. Her tone is taking on one that concerns me for her well being. It is getting more frequent and more desperate. I am worried for her, but I can't say anything to her about getting help because she will automatically reject it.

This kind of behavior really messes a kid up. Get your kids help and protect them from problems and issues which are ultimately between you and your wife. It is outrageous that she would say such things to your son.

This kind of behavior loses people custody and results in court orders.

What you should do is confront her about this message and behavior and lay your foot down that you will not tolerate having the children be abused in this manner and brought into the middle of two parents ripping each other apart.

Take that message and save it for your lawyer.

ITA!!

No, personally I don't like your response (regarding depression). It tends to confirm her infidelity choice in her foggy mind. You may have been depressed, but that doesn't justify her infidelity; that's her fog. Don't reinforce her foggy views. About the only thing that you might say is that your committed to meeting her needs and you know you've made too many withdraws from her love bank, but she must severe all contact with the other man forever. After that you would continue to meet her needs (plan A) through communication with her that doesn't degrade you.

If you aren't already, then you'll be amazed at how this pathology is identical from couple to couple. I found a lot of strength in reading other historical posts on this forum. You'll see how marriages are saved and lost. If you aren't already doing this, then I would recommend reading other posts particularly ones from that have been resolved one way or the other. Your situation will be earily similar to most others on this forum.

This is fog babble, rambling about things tha may ave never happened and justifying the result of her bad behaviour. I would take HTLD advice and try to protect the kids from this type of stuff. Do they see through the lies? I hope they do since they live with you.

What she is doing is trying to emotionally blackmail her own children. They need to do what THEY think is right and let the chips fall where they may...you need to do the same thing. If she wants to cut off her own children, there is nothing anyone can do about it, but it's a double edged sword that would hurt both her and the kids. You cannot let her control you or them though with her insane threats. This is highly manipulative and WRONG!

Well she doesn't want custody, they are with me full time. The older one has slept there twice in 2 months; the younger one never and barely talks to her. There is not 2 parents ripping each other apart; I am always trying to be civil to her. No LBs. But the fact that she says she is willing, and telling her own son and myself that she will move out of state and be out of their lives forever; I just don't understand it. How could you want to lose any relationship with your own flesh and blood. She is really not thinking straight and I wish she would get counseling; but I can't tell her that. Her family should step in, but they don't want to get involved. I guess it's better to let her make the biggest mistake of her life than have her mad at them.

The coaster is going up again. The wife called last night to tell me she wanted to take the dog for a walk this morning. She was very pleasant and we talk for a few minutes of small talk, how was work, how my excise was going, etc. No anger, nothing.

Keep it up! Keep going till you can't take it anymore Your doing good!

She sounds very unbalanced. Do you think her parents could help her avert the biggest mistake of her life?

The problem is, it was her mother who mentally abused her growing up and she isn't all there either. Her dad died 18 years ago. Her mother and brothers don't want to get involved. As dysfunctional as their family is, they don't want to make it worse. They are afraid of making her mad and having her not talk to them. When we were first married, she didn't talk to her mother for 2 years because of the way her mother treated her.

Well I suppose there's no help there then. It could well be her mother that's molded her into who she is today. I guess all you can do is what you are, but I still would enact Plan B asap to protect your love for her and also to show her what life without you will be like, I'm afraid of her cake eating.

I am wondering if your WW has a surrogate mother, someone who she adopted that she felt was more a mother to her than her dysfunctional biological mother. It could be a neighbor, a church friend, or a co-worker. This person might have more influence over your WW, she is the person you need to work with.

I have tried talking to our neighbor. She is about 15-20 years older than us and WAW is close with her. She doesn't want to take sides/ get involved because her and her husband are friends to both of us. WAW still sees her at least once a week, but I have no idea if they talk about it. She is also a divorcee and remarried so she thinks that it is okay to end marriages if it isn't working. I tried to talk to her about WAW's EA but she wouldn't listen/ believe it, so I don't know if she would listen about wife's irrational behavior.

I don't speak to my mother right now because of the way she treats my wife and I. It's not a sign of being unbalanced or quick to anger. Sometimes, you have to enforce a boundary in order to preserve what love you have for a person, otherwise they walk all over you.

In other news, people having an affair -- even those who've claimed to have recently ended it -- move out for exactly ONE REASON: to make time for their lover(s). Period. End of story. Every other excuse is hogwash, and you shouldn't believe it. Make your plans with that perfect knowledge in your mind.

Plan B exists for a reason, and the main one is to preserve YOUR love for your spouse from their crazy-making affair-related behavior. You can step off the roller coaster and refuse to ride it until your spouse comes to their senses.

Doormat,
For now, the roller coaster is okay; as long as I keep in mind that that is who she is and don't let it get to me. I am planning for a Plan B. But everyone who I talk to who knows us see her irrationality. They all see that she needs help and tell me she's been this way for years. If I Plan B her too soon, she will use that as a sign that I left her and use it to stay angry and continue on down the path she has chosen. I believe that the more she sees my changes and how I am doing a great job of maintaining the house and raising the boys, the more she will miss us and rethink it. I just need to make sure she's not cake eating. We have had more pleasant conversations of late with few angry words and she hasn't twisted things around.

As proof of this, last week she changes the password for our wireless phone online account. She said I don't want you having full access to my phone records to make things up. On Monday, 6 days later, she called and gave me the new password. She called me this morning and we were discussing the weather and she told me that she went running this morning. She is starting to tell me about her current life and connecting with me. So if I can avoid her cake eating, I see progress.

This gaslighting is a good sign. She may realize that she needs you so she can continue to cake eat. However, I do not advise trying to get her back in this state. It would be complete havoc for you. I still reccomend plan A until you can no longer take it. Get her to come back for a good plan A, but if you cant handle it anymore then plan B with no support and no contact with her.

Wheels,
I don't want her to move back right now. I would like to try getting together/dating with her first and have her go for counseling at the same time. Once she starts getting help and begins to reconnect with me, then it would be time for her to come home. If she comes home before then, I'm afraid that we would go right back to the same thing. Although legally I could not stop her if she moved back in today, I would not encourage her to do so.

Well, let's see what happens, my new attorney has contacted hers and notified her that she is now representing me. Let's see what that does.

Maybe it'll make it all seem more real to her and she'll stop and think...don't bank on it though. You need to focus on what YOU need to do and not worry about HER response. She's a wayward, you can't figure them out or predict them.

My younger son agreed to have dinner with her Sunday. She made one of my son's/family's favorites. After dinner she sent the leftovers home with him, specifically for me. Again she is flip flopping back and forth.

I guess since you're still in Plan A, all you can do is enjoy the good that comes.

Hi all. Need some advice on some developments. My wife has been talking to me more this last week. I thought maybe it is the reality of school starting and her not being here. Well yesterday after school I went out with friends from teaching. She called me and asked for permission to enter the house and pulled her same old crazy games. I gave her permission. Her iPod died and she wanted to reload it. So 20 minutes later she called back and said it wasn't working. I told her to leave it and I would be home and look at it. I know I was letting her cake eat, but I thought that I was meeting her needs by doing things she wanted and couldn't do. Well anyways I came home 45minutes later and she was still there trying to load it.

After she was done, she asked me to come outside and talk for a few minutes; it ended up being 2 hours. She actually talked about us and our marriage. She started out telling me why she wouldn't come back and why we couldn't work. How her heart was so hard and she hated me so bad that it wouldn't work. I simply replied I have heard of cases worse than ours that have come out great on the end. I told her that it is not a quick pill and would take lots of time and counseling, both joint and individual to fix us. She then told me she is going to counseling. She wouldn't say who so I don't know if it's the religious one again, but she is going. She said that is why she is here now, because through her IC she realized our problems. I simply told her that with work it could. I will be fine no matter how it turns out, if she comes back or goes. I will continue down the path I am on and will be who I see for myself with or without her. I can still see her massive self esteem problems haunting her. She thinks that I have changed and am now this skinny, happy guy who has become this different person because she left me. That I am happy because she is gone. I explained to her it was because of coming out of the depression, not her leaving. I am this way in spite of her being gone, not because of. Every time she tried to get herself wound up and spin it into a negative I stopped her and pointed it out to her what she was doing. I told her this was the problem. I also told her she was part of the problem for my depression. It felt good to grow a pair. She seems to be honestly thinking about it, or am I reading it wrong. She still has issues, she still can't see her EA as anything more than the innocent, coaching his running. But she does admit that he was there to make her feel good about herself and connect with someone, but doesn't see how that helped end us, because she had already decided to end the marriage and he was there to help her deal with it. Is this some of the fog lifting? Is there reason to hope? I did tell her that I don't want her to move back in the way she is/we are right now that it would just go back to where we were. I told her I would like to start interacting/dating/talking to her to build our feelings back up and go for counseling both JC and IC and see where it goes. That after some time if it doesn't work then at least we gave it a try. Now who knows if she will flip flop again today and interpret it all wrong. Thoughts please.

Try to get her on the phone with one of the Harleys. I think this would be your best bet to see if this is really what your WW wants or if she is just all talk. Remember, actions speak louder than words.

Okay so it gets more interesting. Today we found out a friend's daughter from our old home in the Fingerlakes who moved to North Carolina came into town with her boyfriend and wanted to get together. The wife called and asked what was going on and I said we were going to go out for wings and she was welcome to come. She said if I would feel uncomfortable she wouldn't come. I told her it would be fine. She came with the two sons and our friends. It was a pleasant evening. She was nice and she talked to me nicely. She did talk about her apartment and job to our friends, but she came, socialized with me and was pleasant. Is this a step forward?

If she is not moved back home then NO it is not a step forward.

But I don't want her back yet. Not until we can reconnect and she can get counseling to work on her problems. If she came home now, we would end up right back where we were; me in depression and us with no relationship.

sounds like she is still trying to make her mind up but she is scared to go back to what she thinks it will be like. She doesn't believe in herself or you yet, keep showing her the changes in you and keep telling her that you are willing and wanting to work things out with her.........
Enjoy your time together, have fun at this point, make her want to spend time with you......show her she is worth the effort, she needs to believe that, her self esteem will get better when she feels important to you and your children.......
Patience is the key, in the meantime keep an open mind to what life has to offer you.......go out with friends, be happy.........

Jessi,
That is exactly what I am doing. I am trying to allay her fears of it going back to where we were. I am trying to show her my changes are permanent. At the same time I am going on. I have told her that I really want her back, but not the way we were. I also have told her that if she decides not to, I am fine with that. I like who I am now and where I am headed and I will continue down that road with or without. I told her I would love to make the journey with her, but I am fine either way. I think that shocked her. I also told her for now, that I would like to start "dating" her and give us a chance to reconnect; while we both go for IC to work on our problems. My counselor says I am doing great and we are only meeting once a month. Her issues, especially the self esteem one tha caused all the problems for us is much deeper and needs more work. But only after there is progress on that would I like her to move back and then we truly have a chance at making it work. Her going to counseling is my big deal breaker, without we can never have a great marriage/relationship.

I think this sounds like a good place to be, on all accounts, you have grown and learned so much during all this, I hope she truly will be able to see this, I know I would love a man who thinks about what he has done and what he is going to do and have the confidence to fix what is wrong.............you truly are a new man......I'm proud of you...........
stay strong and patient......

Well, it isn't a step backwards by my way of looking at it! But you can't make a judgment on what will happen based on it. Remember, waywards can't be counted on. Until she has a complete change of heart and is willing to do everything she needs to do to save the marriage, until she is completely remorseful and is willing to learn new ways, nothing is changed.

KC,
Hence the reason I don't want her to move back in until I can see the change in her. I know that it is tough to make it work if we are not under one roof, but in this case, I think it is better. Until I can see her commitment to making changes and wanting to make our marriage work and adhere to the MB principals, I don't want to set myself and us up for failure and to be hurt again.

I totally understand. Being as it's already gotten this far, I would want to make sure changes were in place before giving it another chance. Normally they don't recommend separating because it's harder to do a Plan A when the other person isn't around to see it, and also because a lot of the time the WW sees the separation as an opportunity to cake eat and see OM.

Okay, I haven't posted in a while because there has been no developments. But now there is. We had some problems with my older son. My younger son and I were at the gym and she texted his phone (I don't take mine) and told him I have to call her. I did and she said the OS was at her place and we needed to have a family conference right now and I had to stop my workout. I almost told her she is not part of the family and can't call a conference, but it was about our son so I went. While discussing our son's problem, she bashed me 8 times. I finally got up and said I don't have to take this any more. I also told her point blank that her bashing/trashing me is what drove me into my depression. I also told her that she told people that I thought every thing was fine in our marriage, but I knew it sucked but because of her behavior I could do nothing about it. I told her that since she left I have really examined our marriage and told her of the problems she created. She stopped, paused, and told me I was right and apologized. I still walked out.

She then later texted me and said that what I said was true and it hurt, but she wants to go to my next counseling session with me to talk about it. Since that night/text (Mon. night) we have talked and had real conversations that were personal but not about marriage. We have talked at least 5 times since then and she is calling my cell phone, not the house phone. I have called the counselor and told him that my IC was going to be JC. He asked why and I told him. It will be interesting. It felt good to have a pair and finally tell her the truth instead of trying to spare her feelings. Is this progress? I know that some say that as long as she is not home, then this is not progress. But as I said before, until she works on her issues I don't want her home as it won't work.

BTW, she is going to counseling to work on her issues. When I called her out about going to see a religious one again, she told me it wasn't the same one and this one has a MS in social work. I simply replied that her last religious counselor worked so well to save the marriage. Later that evening, she texted me and said that she has called and made arrangements to see a real counseling center and has stopped seeing the religious one because I objected. I think she is really trying to work on her issues. I don't know if it's for us to have a chance, or for her to move on, but it is something she never would have done a month ago. Sorry for three long posts, but thought from the experts out there? Thanks as always for the expert advice and shoulder. You all have made this so bearable and given me focus and direction and comfort. If this ever works it's because of this site. If it doesn't I will be fine because of the help I got here!

awokenhubby,
good luck at the counseling session, I see some hope in what you wrote in your post, maybe she is starting to see that how she conducts herself has stopped you from being free to fix the problems between you.....
There is a lot to fix before you can think about fixing the marriage, it's hopeful, I'm glad you stood up for yourself and you stopped the behavior that got your marriage to the spot it's in now.....
It's time to change to move forward.......keep talking to each other, listen to each other, this is probably something the two of you haven't been doing.....
Tell her you understand but can't go on any longer the way things were, tell her this is your chance to have a great marriage and learn how to love each other the right way...........

Can you make a session with the Harleys? because that is what you need. See if she is willing to talk to them.

Sapphire, If things go well and I don't get blindsided by something she says in the counseling session, that is my next step. I want us to talk to them and let her see that the marriage is truly fixable and can be better than it ever was. I am not sure about her finding my thread and reading it; I was pretty blunt and nasty at times about her in here. If things begin to work, do I show it to her or not. I know with wheels it was/is fantastic the way they are both on here and talk about both sides of the affair and recovery, but I am not sure how she would be; especially until we are fully into recovery.

Try to avoid sarcasm, which is a DJ. I would say it might be progression...it is good that you are being honest with her, but try to work on keeping heat/emotion out of it and try not to let things build...no one can take ten or twenty years of dumping all at once...it helps to keep it to the present situation at hand.
Good luck with the counseling, let us know how it goes, we'll be rooting for you!

KC,
thanks for the advice. I knew when I said it about her counselor that I was being mean and probably a LB. I also knew that when I walked out and said what I did, that it was a little too much and hurtful, but after putting up with it so long, and examining our marriage these last few months, I realize exactly what I put up with and what it did to me/us that it kind of all came out(she actually wore her wedding dress to go trick or treating as the bride of Frankenstein with the boys when they were little ; I said how I didn't like it and she ridiculed me for not being comfortable with it). I did keep it short and didn't go too long. I do know that it hurt her, because it stopped her dead in her tracks and she became quiet and apologized. I wanted to tell her, but not like that and not in anger. Counseling is on the 5th; so I will be anxious for the next 10 days. I'll be on if anything progresses in the meantime.

You know, it is so hard not to DJ when you're going through the end of a painful marriage or a divorce, I think all of us have done it...my remark was just meant as a reminder if you want to save your marriage (if possible) to keep that goal in mind. You are bound to have a lot of pent up stuff over the hurts from all the years...a counselor could help you with releasing it...these are the things we all end up having to work on. Fun! Squeezed in there right between Seinfeld and CSI or homework and dishes. By and large, you've been doing terrific!

Okay maybe I should have gone off on her years ago. Tonight was my son's football game. I went to work out and then was going to the game. My wife called and asked if I was coming to it. I told her yes. When I showed up, I stayed away from her to not infringe on her territory. She called and told me to come sit with her and our neighbors. She talked to me very socially during the game; and we walked out to the parking lot together and continued to talk. This is more movement from her than I have seen in years.

This morning I am walking back to my house from my neighbors and she is driving by to go to our other neighbors and honks and waves. I go over and we socialize for about 10 minutes. It was all very pleasant and she was very friendly.

awokenhubby,
How are you doing? Haven't seen you on here for a while...catch us up!

KC,
Sorry for no update. We have continued to talk since last post. Nothing serious, just how is your day and talking social personal stuff. She has called me to talk about the boys but then we talk for most of the time very friendly. So far I have avoided relationship talk. Tomorrow we go to the counselor, a JC session as per her request after I told her off. I will update as to developments after I get back from the session. I had a car accident about 2.5 weeks ago and she even offered to let me use her car while mine was being repaired. I turned it down of course, but the fact that she offered. I am curious as to what will happen tomorrow; I am hoping, but not expecting.

So counseling was interesting. It started out with him (the counselor) asking what we wanted out of this session. we both replied to be able to communicate and get along. Then we started talking about the argument at her apartment and her bashing me. I then brought up the issue of her bashing me for years is what put me in the depression. She got defensive and tried to attack. The counselor then got us calmed back down and talked about how to communicate and leaving the issues in the past in past to effectively be able to co-parent. We ended up being able to have a good talk about our boys and their problems and how to work together and communicate in a positive way. He explained that my depression was not caused by her treatment of me, but of my poor coping mechanisms of dealing with her treatment of me. I know that sounds like some psychobabble, but it makes some sense. He also talked to her about her perceived attacks on her by me and her inability to talk to me about them. Overall I thought it was productive. At some point in the session, I felt like a burden lift off of me. I'm not sure if it was the anger for how she treated me, or the resentment for her leaving and blaming it on me, but it felt good. At the end of the session, I made an IC appointment for me, and Karin asked for another joint session. Whether it is for the co-parenting reason, or for us and a relationship possibility I don't know. I can be optimistic but make sure I have no expectations. I will continue to work on me and take care of the boys while continuing with the separation agreement. I will also continue to try and communicate with her and reconnect with her. Maybe it is time to ask her for a date again and see what she says. Do I tell her about my feeling of the weight being lifted or is that just emasculating?

A quick update on my progress. I no longer have anxiety attacks or bouts of depression. I am doing a good job of taking care of the house, boys and bills. The house may not be as clean as she kept it, but we are three guys! There is not garbage and filth, but the baseboards don't get cleaned regularly. There is never piles of laundry. The yard is neat and the house is functioning well. I have lost a total of 70 pounds and I am turning heads and getting compliments from everyone on my body, including fellow teachers and students. It feels weird, but good. I have now biked over 1600 miles since the middle of June. Family and friends have said they haven't seen me this happy and relaxed in years. It makes me more committed to making sure she has gotten help and we know how to work through problems before we give reconciliation a try. She still has not talked about it, but I am not ready for it. She will really need to convince me of her changes and being able to treat me right before and work through problems constructively before I want her back. If that doesn't happen, then I content in knowing where I am now and that I can have a happy, great life with another partner. I still would like my marriage back, but not the way she and it were. I am still in plan A, because the separation agreement is not finalized and because I am seeing progress in communication between us. If it continues, I will continue Plan A. If it plateaus then it is time for Plan B. I have not lost my love for her, or desire to reconcile so staying in Plan A is okay right now.

Awoken,
That sounds like a good progress report, glad to hear of it! It is good to be optimistic but not have expectation, and there is a difference. Expectation comes with an agenda while optimism is an attitude.
Good luck with the IC...and I wouldn't think it would hurt to tell her how the counseling session impacted you. It might open up discussion with her. So long as there's no relationship talk, no attacks, and stick to the present, it should be okay.

I called my wife this morning and asked her out for dinner. She has plans, but we talked very socially about our personal lives and days for over half an hour. I feel we are slowly reconnecting, but time will tell.

Well we continue to talk every day, and talk about our personal separate lives. She brought over her electric bill to have me look at and give her my opinion on. I don't know if we are reconnecting or she is cake eating. I asked her out for dinner this weekend, but she hasn't answered yet. Again, time will tell.

Well I made homemade soup this week and sent some over for her. She enjoyed it and thanked me. She then brought over some banana bread for the boys and I. We continue to be friendly and talk, but I still don't know if progress is being made.

Not sure where you want to be with WW, but progress seems to be being made.

I don't remember and 52 pages is too much for me to read to find out if your WW had an EA or if it went to a PA. So I will ask is there NC with the OM?

HAs WW agreed to not go to FL alone ever again? Too bad you can't get MIL to move away from the OM. Future family visits will suck.

Though I would find it hard to visit MIL that allowed her DD to use visiting her as an excuse to have an affair.

On the brightside this couselor seems to be helping the both of you to get your selves back on track. Just keep doing what your doing.

Road,
Thanks. It was an EA. She waffles between admitting it and saying it was just harmless fun because of the distance and she knew nothing could happen from it. She doesn't realize/accept that any attachment to another man is harmful. As far as NC, that hasn't happened yet in an official form. I can check her cell phone records, it's still part of our plan. She has very little contact with him that way. As far as the NC letter and my demand of it, if we move forward toward a reconciliation it is a definite demand. That and she continues joint and individual counseling. The no going to Fla. alone is part of the NC, and that will be interesting to see how that goes over if and when the time comes. Right now I am just trying to reconnect and plan A her.

FWIW, WWs move out of the marital home mainly to make themselves more available. Are you sure that is the ONLY A your WW was involved in?

MIM,
I could be wrong,but I am certain. We have talked about it a bit. She felt so stifled/beaten down, that she felt she had to get out or kill herself. I know that is not a sane person talking, but that was her feeling. Please know that I never intentionally said or did anything to make her feel that way, but because of the mental abuse by her mother and her severe self-esteem issues, she would take everything as a put down and then attack me intentionally, hence my depression. She is now going to IC, and not a religious one either. I have no idea what they are talking about or working on, but she seems to be much more stable. Hence my attitude of time will tell if we can reconcile. I do not want the marriage back if it will go back to the same. It has to be a lot better, or I'm better off with someone else.

It sounds like you're making progress...whether or not it's enough remains to be seen. It's slow but seems to be getting better than it was.

Well we are still communicating about personal things. She is interested in my quest to get my 2,000 mi. on my bike. I sent her the picture of my odometer at 1,900 miles and she congratulated me and we talked about my new fitness. I haven't been able to tell her that I am doing this now because she isn't tearing me down for doing it; something she used to do whenever I started working out when we were together.

Small moves make for large changes. Keep it up as best you can without thought of her returning your affection.

Doormat,
Thank you for your encouragement. I have started to read your whole thread; it is quite a long one! It makes me look at my situation in a different light and see some things that I should be doing differently. Mine is different with her moved out, but the whole EA and her denying it as such is very similar. I am seeing some progress, but I am not sure when to change to Plan B while seeing progress. I know if I ever get the feeling that she is connecting with me only to be friends after the divorce, it is over and dark Plan B is in effect. But Right now I see more and more connecting. She is still talking about her future alone, but until she decides to try to recover she has to plan on her single future; like the same way I am protecting myself financially. I just wish that I could talk to her about our connecting and if she has any thoughts about reconciling. I know I'm not supposed to, but I am curious.

Okay, I haven't rambled in a while, but it has been building up. I love my wife dearly, and I want a happy, fulfilling marriage with her, but I have been doing a lot of reading and introspection. I own up to my alienation from her because of my depression. That my depression drove a huge wedge in our relationship. But I also see now that she treated and abused me in the way her mother did her, and the way her mother did her father. I never want to be treated like that again. I see some changes in her, sometimes some big changes; but I am afraid that she will change back. She is not willing to admit her role in our demise. She sees it as all my fault for alienating myself from her. The truth is she abused me so bad mentally and publicly, that I stopped wanting to be around her for fear of embarrassment in front of friends, strangers and professional colleagues. I remember the looks of pity that strangers gave me when she would tear into me in public. I remember comments from friends after a night out with her about how she is one tough woman, a doublespeak for a nasty [censored]. That is why I got driven into depression. Yes it was my lack of coping skills and not being able to deal with the way she treated me that put me into depression; but if she hadn't done it, I wouldn't have had to cope with it. Any time I tried to talk to her and say something about the negative way she treated me, she would threaten to leave me or commit suicide. I realize this was a power play on her part and it kept me in check and allowed me to remain submissive.(I am understanding this after reading Doormat's thread and your responses) This allowed her to push me further and further. Now she is playing the victim and says she had to leave because she was lonely and had no relationship with me. That it is all my fault. Well I have come to realize that I am a great guy with a lot of great traits. I am a good catch for anyone. I have had a bunch of women hit on me and tell me that my wife is stupid. After years of neglect and abuse, it frankly feels great being made to feel wanted and worth a woman's affection. I like it and after years of no attention and coming out of the depression and wanting companionship, it is becoming increasingly lonely to raise my boys by myself and have no one to give me affection. Is this normal? What do I do about it? Can I start to date and make sure that my wife is really who I want to be with? If this is bad thinking on my part, please hit me with the 2x4s. I just am so lonely right now and long for companionship. Not sex, but someone to share my day and time with. I am doing some of this with my wife, but I don't now if I am being a doormat and allowing her to cake eat, or if we are rebuilding our connection. That is why I want to know her intentions.

And we go back again. I went to my son's football game and sat with my wife, my son's friend and another one of my son's friend's father. Things were pleasant enough. As the game is winding down, my son's friend is calling her mother for a ride home. I told her don't have her mother come out, I'll take you home when I take my son home. As we are walking back to the cars, my wife calls me over to talk. She complains that she knows she's the bad guy for leaving, but she is still his mother and wants to see her son. ( I almost said that you can come back to the family and we would all be going home together, but that would probably make her angry). That it is unfair of me to always take him home from the game. That my son never even knows she was at the game if she doesn't take him home. How I can show up late to the games and I am the hero. It is more of her browbeating and trying to control me and the situation. I really think he likes to come home with me so we can guy talk about the game. Plus It's logical, we live 2 miles one way and she lives 3 miles in the opposite direction; and I am going home anyways.

Well we go up the roller coaster again. Wife wife texts me this morning and asked if my son went to school, and if he didn't if I called the school. Her tone was a little accusatory. I was driving and couldn't text so I called her. She went from offering to call, to saying she will step out and leave it to me. This caused me to blow up about how she is waffling and this behavior is one of the big problems in our relationship. We then had a very good discussion about communication and being receptive to each others viewpoints. We then talked about reconciling, not actually doing it, but about the possibility of it sometime. I won't go into all the detail unless it will help with advice, but it was positive.

in my experience if someone picks a fight it's because they are reacting to a past hurt trigger, but deep down are looking for reassurance from the targeted person (stemming from reassurance they didn't get as kids). to me she is obviously confused about her decision to leave you. i would ask what are you really afraid of/concerned about here? talking about what's really going on has been the hardest thing in my marriage, but i'm learning...

Cabbages,
Discussing problems has been probably the biggest failure in our marriage. Whenever I tried to bring something up as a problem with her/our relationship, she threatened leaving or suicide. So I learned to keep my mouth shut, and internalize everything. Not healthy, I know, hence my depression. I guess my biggest fear is that our new found communication is not about reconnecting, but her cake-eating. We have had more frank, honest, problem solving talks (not fights) since move out day than we did in 21 years of marriage. I guess I feel that I have nothing to lose, I already lost her and I can truly speak my mind/grow a pair because I don't have to worry about either of her previous threats. Every time we talk about our issues, I feel a bonding/connection/hope, that I'm afraid if she isn't I'm setting myself up for hurt. The changes I have made will prevent me from sliding back, but it will still hurt all over again. When she acts like she used to, I honestly wonder if she can/will change and if I am wasting my effort and emotions. But it does bring me closer to her and I hope her to me as well.

This morning's phone call was the best one yet, it really hit at some main issues. We were able to express them and use "I feels" instead of "you make me". She admitted that she said a whole lot of nasty, hurtful stuff to me in anger, but she didn't mean them. I replied that I understood that at some level, but when we never talk about what you said and why, or apologize for saying it, it whips me down until I eventually cowered in a corner for fear of incurring your wrath again. She is having a hard time accepting this as the reason for my depression. There were other factors, but this is the major one. I was afraid to be around her, or out in public with her for fear of what she will say or do to put me down. Not a good life for either one of us and why I am so defensive. I never said anything intentionally to hurt her, but because of her self-esteem issues she took a lot as an attack, and then intentionally said and did things to hurt me! I knew hers were intentional and thought out and it made it hurt worse.

i'm glad you guys were able to talk about the outward anger shown not being what she meant. i did that a lot. i screamed and cried in vain, and I now realize I was only hoping for reassurance, some words of love. i said "leave me" a dozen times without really meaning it, and here he is, finally deciding to move out. i need to express my true needs, the need for love, as it's always been an issue, for H as well.

but i don't think it's getting into "discussing issues" when asking 'what's really going on' and 'how can i help'. you'll need to get past the fear of angering her or you won't be open either. and with kids you want to be in a caring relationship whether you end up together or not, so it shouldn't be TOO hard to show concern in a gentle way, without bringing up her past issues. listen to me, i hope i take my own advice!

btw after reading your thread, you have a lot to be proud of, way to go.

I agree that you should not get back together unless you are sure things have changed. This is not the time to be thinking about someone else.


Yes this is normal. Do you belong to a church? Perhaps they have a divorced separation group you can join.


NO you can not date. That would make things much worse for you. Continue to work on yourself. Keep talking to her and see where things go. If it becomes too painful for you then you will have to go into plan B.

Cabbages,
Thank you for the encouragement. I really have made some great strides. I think I am okay with the outcome of the marriage, whichever way it goes. I truly want to stay married to my wife, but only if it can be a great marriage. I will not settle for what it was, or even close. The problem/fear is that I could become (not that I am even close yet) the best person/husband there is and she can still divorce me and I have no say. But nothing ventured/nothing gained.

BTW congrats on the weight loss and the biking. How's the mileage going?

Suamico,
I thought as much about the dating. It's just the desire to connect and feel wanted. I guess I can bear it; for the ends justifies the means. There is always others after I have exhausted every opportunity to repair the marriage. It was just so easy to not care about companionship and a relationship while in the depression. Looking back I didn't care about much. I had one of my wrestlers win the state and national championship and was barely happy. That should have been a huge red flag! At the time I thought about it and justified it as I didn't do it, he did. So now that I am not a robot, but a feeling person, I want to feel wanted and loved.

Suamico,
2 rides and I will hit the 2,000 miles!! My goal is to bike the year 2010. At 40 miles a ride I will surpass that in the 2nd ride. I had to buy cold weather gear, the last ride was only 48 degrees at the finish and I couldn't feel my toes. But I will ride through snow if I have to to get my goal. This type of drive is what keeps me going in Plan A. I work at something until I accomplish it; unfortunately I don't have the final say in this.

"So now that I am not a robot, but a feeling person, I want to feel wanted and loved."
_________________________

that's a great way to say it. "awoken" is a good name i think those searching for help are indeed awakening, we finally want what's best and healthy for us. and if we're lucky, we want the same for our spouse.

Doormat,
Your thread is really opening my eyes. My wife has the same feeling of inferiority of intelligence around me. (I am on page 18 of 32 of your thread, reading it all.) She actually got better grades than me in college, but I was a slacker. She felt awkward around me because I'm a very eloquent, convincing speaker. Every time we would have a discussion she would feel that I won and resent that. I never tried to put her down, but with her low self-esteem she always felt it. I didn't do enough to make her feel equal. I am enjoying reading your thread and learning through your lessons.

NO to the dating! If you do end up divorced, you will need some time to heal before getting into a relationship with someone else. This isn't the time to think about that though, one thing at a time, right now you still have the goal of getting back together so that's what I'd focus on. Spend some time with friends, do something enjoyable. Know within yourself that you are someone worth dating or having a relationship with...that knowledge doesn't have to come from with OUT but can come from with IN.

KC,
Thanks for another 2x4 . I know that it is wrong, it's already been confirmed and I really knew it before I asked; just hearing it here helps reinforce it. It's just the desire for companionship. After being isolated and alone so long, I want to connect with someone. I just need to keep my eye on the goal and remember that it is worth it. Read next post for an update.

So after this morning's talk/argument; things took another step forward. Both boys were sick and we were texting back and forth trying to coordinate getting them to different doctors. My older son drove himself and I took my younger one after work. She called to find out what the doctor said and then offered to stop by the pizza shop near her work and pick up pizza that we all really love. She brought it by after work and stayed and had dinner with us!!! It was a very pleasant dinner. After dinner she hung out for a bit. I hope it was to see me, but more likely her mothering instinct for her sick babies. I eventually left to walk the dog and give her time alone with the boys. I sent her a text apologizing for not asking her to come walk the dog with me, but I wanted to give her time with the boys. When I came back she was gone. No response to my text yet.

Why is it that every time I stick up for myself and put her in her place we have a step forward? If she felt like I was always putting her down and this was a big trigger, why does it get a positive response now?

AHEM. Let's not try to figure out why a wayward thinks this, or does that. It is CRAZY MAKING.

Now, about this dating thing. COMPLETELY NORMAL to think about it. Also completely normal to figure out it is WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Try not to focus on your WW's actions or reactions. That is the beauty of Plan A. You need to just do what you need to do and not worry about what your WW is doing. Become the best YOU that you can be. Someone you would be PROUD to be.

i think because she's seeing you have good intentions now, where before nothing but negativity could be taken from anything you said (i have unfortunately been there and back with H).

Scotty,
Welcome back to my thread and thanks for the continued help. I am so encouraged by tonight's dinner. I called her on the way to the gym. We talked for about 20 minutes. Again nothing about us, but just connecting. I thanked her for dinner and she said it was nice. I think after this it might be time to try asking her out on a date again. Small baby steps. As I learned from Doormat's thread, it's not a sprint, but a marathon. As long as we are moving forward, some backwards steps, while maddening are expected. I just need to keep focused on the goal and making myself the best I can be. Hopefully as she heals she will see me as someone she wants to be with.

Hi there,
You are on the right track, slowly move forward, slowly she will see the effort you are making and the comfort level she will feel......
good luck

How do I respond to the "I get it that..." For instance "I get it that I am the bad guy for leaving you, but why do I feel that I am being punished for it?" OR "I get it that younger son is angry at me for leaving, but I still want to see him". First off he is not mad at her for leaving, he is intolerant of her treating him like she did me. He tells me mom is psycho. I quickly tell him mom is going through a tough time over the separation and give her understanding. Second if she really "gets it" she wouldn't be asking these questions and making these statement. I try to deflect it and say that I am encouraging him to see and talk with her, and tell her I am not trying to make her feel punished for it. Truth is, I am doing the opposite, I tell people that she was so far at the end of her rope she had to leave. I do tell them she left me; not "we separated" because "we" had nothing to do with it. But I would like a real comeback to her "I get it that..." that will not LB.

Jessi,
Thanks for the encouragement. I am very encouraged over her bringing dinner and staying to eat with us. I think it's a big step forward, but we will see if it was real.

Okay, I am completely engulfed in doormat's thread. Reading it is making me wishful I could have the same chance. My wife moved out and it is so hard to meet her EN when she is not here. She claims to have read HNHN for parents when I brought it home for me a few years ago. I doubt it or she would have tried it. Although she may have and in my depression I never saw any of it. I would love to sit her down and talk to her about MB, but I can't; I can't talk about our relationship. I can check her text history because we still share the same plan. She still texts POSOM. She still mostly says he is just a friend and she is helping him train for running. She has at times admitted she became attached to him; she won't call it an affair. But then she justifies it by saying she didn't start with him until after she decided to leave me. I have no idea what they talk about any more because I have no access to her phone, so I don't know if it is anything personal. I would still love to take a flight to Fla. and kick his [censored] for preying on her. He supposedly has a live in girlfriend. I have no access to her to tell her about the EA. She will be good and then we will have problems; I wonder if that's right after she has texts with POSOM? If I could get her to end it with him, I really think we could progress forward. I refuse to check her text history frequently because it would drive me nuts. Yes Doormat I have that trait with you. Now back to the last few pages of his thread; it is like a book I can't put down, I want to know how it ends.

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awokenhubby, I would encourage your son to tell her honestly about his feelings. It does not help her to not hear them. She needs to hear from everyone how disgusted they are by her behavior.

You do not have any control over whether or not she feels "punished.\" That is likely her guilt coming through and that is a good thing. The next time she says that, say "I am sorry you feel that way." And I would be up front about your son's feelings by saying the truth: he is very upset with the way you treated me.

Honesty works best on all levels. The worst thing you can do is whitewash her wrongdoing. That is bad for her, bad for you and most of all, bad for your marriage.

awoken, I am just catching on your thread, and I cheered when I saw the part where you were finally HONEST about your feelings about her treatment of you. You behaved perfectly in this instance. You told her the truth about how you felt and you backed it up with actions by leaving. She needed to see that you have boundaries. Your lack of boundaries and honesty in the past are part of the reason your marriage became so bad. You did great here!!

I agree with this. You were depressed because of her attacks, but you allowed them to take place. You had no boundaries. This also incented her to disrespect and hate you, because women do not respect men they can run over. By taking the stand you are taking, you are making a remarkable change in your marriage. By having boundaries, you protect the love in your marriage.


I am still catching up, and maybe you realize this, but learning how to "communicate" will not save your marriage. You can be the best communicators in the world and still end up divorced. That will not save your marriage.

This is where Harley differs from other marriage counselors. They specialize in "communication," whereas he specializes in restoring the romantic love in the marriage. The latter is what will effectively save the marriage. People don't divorce when they are in love.

Dr Harley discusses it in this newsletter:

here

Sure you can! If you don't talk to her about your relationship she will conclude you don't care. I would definitely speak to her about it and tell her you know a way you can fall in love again. Then tell her about Marriage Builders.

awokenhubby, can you get a landline number for his house? If so, I would try calling his home to see if you can get ahold of his live-in GF. [disguise your # using *67 so he doesn't see your name on the caller ID] Telling her about the affair might be the impetus to kill it off.

I would also do more to kill this affair by bringing it up and demanding she end the affair. Not mentioning it gives her the impression that you don't care. You should be causing as much trouble in the affair as possible, including confronting the OM and telling him to buzz off.

No kidding. In my experience, "We don't know how to communicate" really means, "My betrayed spouse refuses to believe my lies, gaslighting, word games and general bullcrap any longer, and I don't know what to say to get him/her to believe all that again."

Melody, welcome back to my thread and thanks for all the advice. Well I'm not sure if I blew it or helped it but we just had a long talk in the driveway again. After reading Doormat's thread I got very encouraged and began looking at things differently. While out on my ride today (37 miles, only one more ride and I hit the year; 2010 miles!!!!!) I began thinking about my wife and her feelings. Even if they are in my mind unjustified, they are real and justified to her. We need to reach POJA on everything. So even if it makes sense for me to take younger son home from football, I should let her do it as well to spend time with him. I need to make more opportunities for him to spend time with her. I will split this so I don't make it too long.

So I came back from my ride and she had come to take the dog for a walk. When she brought him back I walked out to the car to talk to her and tell her about my revelation about taking son home and needing to let her feel more a part of it. I then began talking to her about us and our relationship and trying to make it work. She so hates herself for the way she treated me, she can't ever have a relationship with anyone again. She thinks she is a nasty, evil, [censored]; which is what she became at the end. She hates me for making her become that way. She has forgiven me for what happened, but she can't forget it. She can't forgive herself for the way she treated me. I told her: 1. That I forgive her for the way she treated me and if we rebuild our love she can find forgiveness for herself.
2. That we shouldn't forget what our marriage was like and use that as a reminder and incentive to make our marriage great and never let it get like that again.
3. That with the things I have learned for reading Harley and the changes I am making that I know we can fix it.

She feels that her heart is so broken that it can't be fixed. I told her I know that it can. I told her I am optimistic that our love can grow back. She doesn't think so. I then told her that if we divorce, don't think that we will be friends; if she is not my spouse, I don't want her in my life at all. So she is like why should I try to reconnect and then not have it work and get hurt all over again? I simply replied because the reward of a happy marriage is worth the risk; and if we work at it, it won't fail. She said but there are two possibilities and she has to think of the other. I said but if you are determined to make it work, it won't fail. So now she is scared to try because she is afraid of failing and me never having anything to do with her after she reopened her feelings.

She was good at using some of the things she is learning in counseling. As she was getting frustrated, she replied I need to take a break when I feel like this; it stopped the AO from escalating. She didn't want to say something, but with my encouragement about complete honesty and openness she did. She said she can't believe it's true that I was depressed and suddenly I'm cured. She can't believe that I can now do everything right, the way she wanted me to all along. I said I'm doing it all for two reasons: I have to, she is not here to do it; and I can do it without incurring her wrath for not doing it her way. She asked why does it have to be your way. I replied that it shouldn't be one way or the other but she should reach a joint conclusion we can both live with.

I left it at: I don't want you to move back in right now, it wouldn't be good for either one of us. I am asking for us to start talking more, and seeing each other and doing things together. Let's see what can happen if we spend time together and working on all the new stuff we have learned in the past few months and see what happens to our feelings for each other. I mentioned the books again; I don't want to force them on her, but I do want her pick them up on her own and read them. If she does I think that she can see that we can rebuild our love and make it work. She calls herself an adulterous, not because she had an EA, but because she left me and therefore can never marry again according to the bible. To which I said all the more reason to make the marriage work so she can have a lifelong relationship and a good marriage

Sorry so long winded but it was a major conversation. Please give feedback on what I did right and wrong and where to go from here.

Melody, I don't know his last name to try and find a landline; I don't even know if he has one. I would like to go down there and tell him what he is doing to our marriage, but then I would need a spot to hide the body!LOL Last time I tried to talk to WAW about the EA and POSOM her comment was he is a friend who is helping her through this. It is a safe friendship because he lives and Fla. and nothing will ever come of it. She is only helping him train. Other times she admits it was an EA, but she didn't start with him until she had already decided to leave me. Still way foggy. I am hoping if she wants to try spending time together and make this work I can bring up her having NC with POSOM and writing him the NC letter. Thoughts on this approach?

I think I am going to give her a copy of HNHN and ask her to read it to show her how we can get back to being in love. Thoughts on this?

AH, I see some really good progress here, but i am concerned it is all for naught if the elephant in the living room is not brought up. You are talking about painting the girls bathroom on the sinking Titanic but purposely avoiding discussion of the sinking ship. The sinking ship has to be brought up FIRST because nothing else will matter until the ship is righted.

I am also concerned that while giving your wife the impression that you don't care by not mentioning the OM, that her affair with him becomes more and more entrenched. All of your efforts will be for naught if she is still in contact with her OM. It is meaningless. I would strongly suggest bringing up the affair often and causing as much conflict as possible. The OM won't want any trouble from you and will likely dump her when you press him.

Don't worry about this being a lovebuster. She will get mad, but it is for a good purpose. Once you get rid of him, THEN you will find some traction in your strategy. Your ships sinks without it.

Additionally, POJA and the PORH is only for RECOVERY. It is never for situations where there is an ongoing affair. You shouldn't be negotiating with a terrorist; that only hands her inappropriate power. She should NEVER be informed of your snooping techniques. That is FOREVER off the table since she had an affair.

This is from an email from Dr Harley:

An even better book for your situation is Surviving an Affair. It not only addresses her affair but has a plan to restore the love in your marriage. If you think the book would repel her at this time, try Fall in Love, Stay in Love.

If I were you, I would stick to these talking points with her:

end your affair with Bob and I know how we can restore the love in our marriage. I am willing to work on the marriage if you end your affair.

Even though she won't like it, I would bring this affair up OFTEN. Bring it up about every 2 to 3 days. Here is what Steve Harley told SickofLimbo about avoiding relationship talk and I believe this principle applies to the absense of discussion about her affair:


It is for this reason that I think your main focus should be on the BIGGEST PROBLEM, which is the OM. Until you get him out of there, all of your efforts are wasted. Not mentioning it ENABLES her and gives her the impression it isn't that important to you.

I would do some intel on him and get his name, home phone # and the names and #s of his family members. [you can call them too] I would most certainly get ahold of his GF. That might kill the affair in one day. Don't give up until you get the goods on him! I assure you, he knows your name and #s.

Melody,
You are right, trying to do these things while she is like this is an effort in futility. She is not willing to admit that it is an EA. I have exposed it to all, including her family and our friends back in June and got not support. Her family got mad at me for bringing them into our personal problems. Our friends don't accept that it is an affair; they told me it's nonsense. She didn't have a job at the time so that was out.
That is why I'm trying to show her that it can work. If she sees hope that we can repair our love then I can get her to dump the relationship and commit to making it work. I am trying to do some of the concepts to show her that this can work and we can repair our marriage. But you are right, it is time to talk to her about ending contact/relationship with POSOM again and calling him and telling him to get lost. I am positive that this will send her through the roof but it needs to be ended. If she wants to save our marriage (right now she says she doesn't) then this needs to happen. I thought wrong when I thought that after exposure you are supposed to let the affair die it's own death if exposure doesn't kill it.

Melody,
The problem is the distance. NY to FLA. and having never met him and knowing nothing about him or his family. I do know from some of the intercepted e-mails that he has 2 adult sons that he is not close with and live elsewhere in the state. That is all the info I have. But it is time to call him and tell him to bugger off. What exactly do I say and how do I put it?

The problem with working on the marriage FIRST instead of focusing on killing the affair is that it is much like a falling down drunk trying to "learn" the steps of AA before he quits drinking. Since he is drunk, none of the lessons get through. BUT, when he stops drinking, they all make sense because he is sober.

If she won't end the affair, I would suggest going into Plan B pretty soon because you have been in Plan A for some time now. She is enjoying getting her needs met in 2 places and is becoming accustomed to this. The more accustomed she becomes, the more entrenched she becomes in her affair.

AH, try and get his full name from his cell phone. Do you have his #? It would be more effective to first expose to his GF and anyone else you can find. THEN, give him a call. Try finding his name on whitepages.com on the reverse look up feature.

I can't figure out waywards either. Or anyone for that matter.

I agree, it's normal to desire companionship...just keep the wait part in mind. Who knows what will end up happening here, we have to stick around and see!

Okay, I did not know how about white pages.com. It is easy and can tell me a lot of info. It is worth the minimal cost. I will do it once I get out of school. I think SAA might set her off, we are starting to communicate and I see some connection. I like the idea of Fall in Love, Stay in Love. I haven't read that one yet, so I need to purchase it and read it. Maybe I can buy 2 and give her one. I want to show her there is a way to rebuild our love. But I think she is in the fantasy world of her affair. She only texts him. She has no internet at her apartment and my sons have her laptop. She could be doing it from work or a friends house. I can see her call log and she never gets or sends calls to him. She does however text him regularly, sometimes a conversation of 20 texts, 10 each way. I will need to bring up her ending contact with him and giving us a shot. I misinterpreted the whole don't talk about the affair thing and need to get much more active in bringing it up to her and getting it ended. So time to talk to her about it, and then after some white pages help, time to talk to him. I hope this can end it; for once it is over, I think I can get her to try. I we both try and follow MB principles, I know it can work.

AH, she might also have an affair phone. Don't let her ire about any affair discussion scare you off. She will be mad and will try to shut you down, just STAY FIRM and don't back down. I don't think you will have any problem doing that, since you have done a STUPENDOUS job bringing other problems to the forefront.

I want to applaud you for pointing out her part in your depression. The radical honesty you practiced there will greatly benefit your marriage in the future. I would practice that same radical honesty now in relation to her affair.

You are doing great!

Well I ordered 2 copies of Fall in Love, Stay in Love; Five Steps to Romantic Love and one Copy of SAA. I figure I can give her one of each of the first 2 and if she reads them, we can discuss them together. I got one copy of SAA for me, and eventually if she see the wisdom of the Harleys she can have it to read, or we can read it together. I figured SAA would send her through the roof, but I need to read it for me. The other two I haven't read, but I figured they would be good to show her the possibility of a great marriage rebuild. They are supposed to be here by the 1st. I hope it works.

You are making what may be a fatal mistake here. You seem to believe that if you can just show her that you are the better choice, she will logically dump the OM and choose you instead.

But, as Mr. Spock might say, "you proceed from a false assumption." You assume that she's trying to choose between you and OM. She's not. Like every other wayward on this planet, she wants BOTH of you because it feels really good to have two men fighting over her and feeding her emotional needs. That's why people cheat. Otherwise, they'd just leave. But they don't. They sit on the fence and try to have both, just like your WW is doing.

That's why busting up the affair is Job One. She will never, ever choose between you because she doesn't WANT to choose between you, and unless and until you understand that you don't have a prayer.

You have to remove the option of her having both of you. You either remove the OM through exposure, or you remove yourself through Plan B.

If you hope that logic will get through to her and she'll sensibly choose the better man, you are sadly mistaken. She will go on sitting on that fence forever and keeping you both just like she is right now, because THAT is what she wants.

Mulan,
I have exposed. I am planning on calling the POSOM and tell him to bugger off. But as per our talk last night, she is afraid of trying, getting feelings for me again, and it not working and being hurt again. That is why I am trying to show her that there is a plan/method that will guarantee us repairing and having a great marriage. If she can see that it will be better than it ever was, I think that she will dump the OM. She only texts him for little bits of affection. There is no phone calls, no internet and no visits. So the only thing she is getting is flirting and being made to feel good about herself. If she can see that we can work, that job can easily come back to me. But her fears of failure need to be calmed and I need to continue to get POSOM out of the picture show what little she gets from him is gone. Plus I have made it quite clear that we are proceeding ahead with the separation and once we are divorced, there will be no relationship. I am still in plan A because I can see her slowly swinging back towards seeing the possibility and see us connecting. I am going to continue the thread of our talk from last night in a few days and see how she responds.

AH, if this is your thinking, I predict you are headed towards great disappointment, my friend. She has no reason to dump the OM when the better deal is to have both of you. She will not dump him as long as she can have you both. That is the best deal for her.

The longer this situation goes on as is, the more entrenched the affair becomes. This is why I suggested exposing the affair to the OM's GF and his family. That will cause conflict in the affair.

Put another way, be assured she has made a choice: BOTH of you. She is not on the fence at all. She has the best of both worlds, 2 men meeting her needs and absolutely no reason to stop.

BINGO!

Again that is why I am using white pages.com to gather info and make a phone call to him this week and also push her into NC with him. I know that she won't choose until pushed, and I know now that I must push the issue.

I think you should contact the GF first as suggested above. If you contact OM first, he will play the "she only texts him for little bits of affection" - card and since you are believing it yourself (these were your words) he will be quite successful to scare you off. Next step for him is to tell his GF about some crazy guy stalking him and the next step after that is to complain to your WW about you ruining their special friendship.

Score: OM 1, A-Hubby 0.

Maybe you will get also some marriage advice from OM. I did.

Start from GF presenting solid intel and you will get much different results.

Oh, and did I tell you - DO NOT WARN YOUR WW OR OM!

Melody& Mulan, Thank you for the 2x4s; I needed that. After a night of introspection it has refocused me. My anger at the affair is back at the surface. I have been doing too much carrot and not enough stick. It is time to stop being so nice and do a little more of show her how it will be without me. I need to stop feeling sorry for her for being in this situation, she brought it on herself. If I had poor coping skills and that was why I had depression, then her poor coping skills is what made her the way she was and why she treated me the way she was and why she left. I need to get more proactive about making this friendship (it's really an EA even if she won't admit it) end. That is why she can't see that we can repair our love and marriage and make it better than it was. Time to push this to the end.

Recon,
I am trying to find out a way to get a hold of GF so we can talk. Hopefully through whitepages.com I can get POSOM landline if he has one and get a hold of her. Don't worry I won't make nice with POSOM. I have been sorely tempted to take a plane ride; and would have already if I could afford it. But then I'm back to finding a large, hungry alligator to dispose of the body. Maybe I could just say he went for one of his runs and went into a large waterhole! Yeah, that's it.LOL