I understand that you are surviving affairs on this forum...and, hopefully, you will be able to help me with my problem. I suppose I am the WW in this situation-- though no physical affair has occurred. I am trying desperately to get a handle on my emotions and body which seem to be betraying me-- wanting someone that I should not want. BH has been my only boyfriend and lover; we've been together for well over a decade (since I was a teenager).

I am now in my 30s and just last year I recently discovered-- or was run over, rather-- by this attraction for this man (BH friend). Along with the attraction came a newfound zest for sexual intimacy; I am practically insatiable (when before sex was more for BH than me). Thankfully, I've managed to explore this-- physically-- only with BH. The reason I call myself WW is because emotionally and in my fantasies, I can't escape what I feel. I want to "be in recovery" NOW before I ruin my family (2 young children) and break BH's heart. It's been a year and 3 months that I have been thinking about OM everyday. I'm not impulsive, I am a very serious person, and I'm trying to "wait it out" until the lust goes away. It's not going away. And the more he tells me about himself and I relate to him/empathize with him...I feel that I love him.

I hope you're not offended that I posted here. I didn't see where else I fit in...and I thought that perhaps I could help you get an insight into "the other side" and vice versa. I truly don't want to harm my spouse. I feel like BH is my kindred spirit; I feel like OM is my soulmate. Last year, I told BH that I had developed feelings for another man since Dr. Harley recommends honesty. (I didn't say who OM was.) BH was disappointed but he told me "these things" (attractions to other people) are going to happen; I just shouldn't sleep with him. He says we can work it out--except if I sleep with him (whoever he is), we won't be able to work it out.

...I don't really know what you could say. How can you help me stop my feelings (which I seem to have little control over)? I thought about talking to OM about this but my sibling told me not to do so (as this would be a betrayal to my husband). I feel terribly constricted not being able to "get this off of my chest"/release my emotions.

Hello Fullmoon. I am new to the boards and I am not sure if you are in the right place but I wanted to give some advise any way.

You should stop all contact physically, verbally, internet, written with this other man. To this point you have been strong but this is and has gotten out of hand. PLEASE if you value your relationship RUN.

I would also suggest you get the book His needs Her needs and READ it NOW. This will help you learn how to have your needs met by the correct person instead of looking in the direction you feel you are being pulled.


I am sure that very soon the "experts' of the boards will be here to offer support and suggestions.

I'm glad you came here before you totally destroyed your family. You are welcome to post here, and if you're sincere about saving your marriage, you will get lots of help.

I'm glad you haven't been physically unfaithful, but you are having an emotional affair with this man.

The only way to resolve your feelings is by having no more contact with this man. No talking to him, no text messaging, no emailing, no ANYTHING! Your sibling is right; you should NOT talk to this man about your feelings, because it is likely that he will use those feelings to push you into a sexual affair.

Tell your husband who the man is. Tell him that you need to never see or speak to this man again. If this man is seeking you out without your husband around, he is NO FRIEND to your husband.

You will need to write a NC letter that your husband approves and sends.

Read everything on this site, and ask your husband to read it, too. You should read the following books, "Surviving an Affair" and "His Needs, Her Needs" by Dr. Harley. You can order this from this site or you can find them on Amazon or in bookstores. Your public library may have them, as well.

Oh...and as for your libido, women usually reach their peak sexuality in their 30s, so your newfound zest probably can't be attributed totally to the OM. And, BTW, there really is no such thing as a "soulmate".

fullmoon, the way you stop your feelings for the OM is to end all contact and expose the affair. Your husband and the OM's wife have a right to know all about your affair. Your parents, children and close friends should know too.

After a period of withdrawal your feelings for the OM will fade. But just like a falling down drunk you must first stay out of the bar and stop drinking.


Well, that is not honest. You lied to him about this affair and then cruelly withheld the name of the OM. He has a right to know everything, most especially the OM's name. To withhold this information is cruel and manipulative.


Actually, you need our "insight." We don't need yours. Your "insight" is leading to the destruction of 2 marriages. Not much valuable to learn there. And yes, you do want to harm your spouse. You know that adultery is cruel and harmful or you wouldn't be lying about it.

p.s. fullmoon, if you are here to save your marriage and end your filthy affair, you are in the right place. Folks will be willing to help you. But we won't help you continue this crime against your husband and the OM's wife. If that is your goal, you are in the wrong place.

Fullmoon, if you're serious, you'll tell your husband the full story of your emotional attachment to this other man. That includes honesty with respect to important facts (most importantly, who the OM is). The reason you have not revealed this crucial info to your H so far is that you have wanted to find a way to keep the illicit emotional affair alive; and I think that even in your foggy, addicted state, you probably can begin to realize that having your husband know the identity of the other man who's horning in on his marriage will make it much harder to keep your affair going.

I know what I'm talking about, fullmoon. See, I cheated on my wife. Back when it was still "only" an emotional affair, I was having qualms about where I could see things going, and I almost confessed to my wife one evening about the feelings I was having for OW. But I held back. And so many times, I have wondered, would that have killed my affair back before it became physical? Well, I'll never know, because I blew it, tried to keep the secret, tried to control my feelings, tried to have my cake & eat it too. Went all the way to rock-bottom. And almost trashed my marriage, my family, everything. And while I was at it, I did help to ruin another man's marriage, and that feels like hell, even though I've been lucky as hell in that my wife has been the most understanding & forgiving person I've ever met.

Bottom line: If you're serious about wanting to end this addiction, you'll tell your H everything & establish that accountability with the person who matters most. Otherwise, you're fooling yourself, if you think you can pull out of this on your own. Trust me.

GloveOil, if I may make a small but important correction: we did trash our marriages.

Fullmoon, you are in no frame of mind yet to appreciate the devastation infidelity causes. And you know what? It only gets worse as more time passes. It is more time that you are dishonest with your BS, it is more time that your BS (and you!) is deprived of a M they should rightfully have. It is pain compounded - it is so much more to overcome. The lies build, the deceit becomes embedded, the marriage grows more and more tainted and strained.

So many of us would give anything to turn back the clock. Please, do not let any more time pass with this affair festering in your marriage. It may trash it...but you may be able to still save it.

Thank you for your prompt responses.

I am grateful that you are willing to offer your thoughts...and a "swift kick in the butt" as needed. I have been *trying* to manage this on my own but have been unsuccessful so far.

OM is not married.

Pass, Clueless, and Melody...you are correct about me cutting off all communication. It seems like such a simple and obvious solution. I tried it for a stretch of 3 months. Begrudgingly. Then he called me because he needed my advice for something. I was all too willing and eager to help. I was relieved to be talking to him again.

I hadn't mentioned OM's name for two reasons:
1. Yes, the "cake and eat it, too"...and I rationalied that it can't be the worse thing in the world since "nothing happened" (OM and I have crossed no lines...we haven't even discussed "us").
And
2. I don't want to ruin their friendship...when he hasn't done anything wrong. If I say his name I will be the blame for their friendship falling apart (and what if this all subsides and I destroyed it for nothing). <-- That's what I was telling myself.

I have wondered if I should hurt BH by telling him the name when I know he is already *somewhat* competitive with this guy. BH tells me that this guy is envious of what we have and wants this sort of relationship for himself.

Glove, thank you for your perspective...it sounds like you were going through precisely the same thing.

If you all still think I should tell BH his name, I will.

I am sincere...and I will fix this.

Thank you so much.

fullmoon

Glad you are here. You know that great help for you is only a phone call away. Please call the Harley's to help you and your BH have the marriage you both deserve.

Sad that you know that NC is a must and honesty also. Your BH must know who the OM is. This is the only way your BH can eliminate OM from his and your lives.

NC is needed for the both of you. Your BH should not tell OM that you want to bang him, rather just decline opportumities to socialize so their friendship dies.

Fullmoon,
Start to read some of the articles on this site about how affairs start and how to stop them.....don't hurt your husband like this.....I'm a BS and I can tell you I have many days when I feel like my heart is bursting out of my chest.....I don't trust anymore, what I believed in is all gone now......It's just a crappy place to be to always wonder about what they are doing and with whom......why put someone you love through this kind of pain.....needlessly, this is completely avoidable......
You are in what they call affair fog, this is where you lose all your common sense and even go against your morals......and somehow you convince yourself that you are entitled to feel love from someone other than your husband.......
Do you think you have the right to hurt your husband and your family.....and then tear someone else's life apart for something so selfish.......you!!!
Can you live with hurting your husband on purpose because that's what it would be.....leave him if you must and you are not happy but remember the grass isn't always greener on the other side, it's just grass......
No Contact in anyway, shape or form with the Om......look at your husband and re-build all your feelings for him....be thankful for a great life and man.....don't make life miserable for you or your husband........for What?

Jess, No I don't think I can live with myself if I hurt BH and ruin (what appears to outsiders looking in to be) the ideal marriage. BH holds me in the highest esteem. I know I am fortunate.

I was searching my brain to figure out how I could feel what I feel. (I am usually so good at thwarting men who approach me-- rarely giving them a second-glance.) In OM's case, I didn't even remember him the first time we met. OM hung around us for 2 years (that I can remember) before I paid attention to him. But once I did see him, I *really* saw him.

OM is not someone I think about "replacing" BH with. At this point. OM is tough, reckless, exciting...but then talks to me about his life and seems compelling, emotional, boundless. This is the primary attraction. BH is just happy... happy all the time, uncomplicated, and easy. When we met, BH was reckless and exciting-- he challenged me. BH has adjusted to his responsibilities as a father and husband perfectly.

Vanilla, I know I am not in the right "mindframe"...even as I am considering this "emotional" affair...in some ways, it's still not *real* to me because "nothing happened". Hopefully, when I get out of this place, I will be able to look back and see how far I had gone with this. That's why I am here to help give me perspective...reinforcement.

Glove, thank you again...as it sounds like you were trying to handle this on your own like me. I am prepared to tell BH today (well, not "prepared"...I'll just close my eyes and blurt it out).

I just need clarification on one part of this: Is it wrong of me to ruin their friendship if OM has not done anything wrong? At most he flirts lightly, makes unnecessary sexual references (that my ears seem to pick up like antennae)...but overall fairly harmless. He's never directly told me anything about "us" and once in awhile he has said things to push me away.

I could tell BH his name today. OR I could just make a commitment to never hang around them when they're together. As BS which would you prefer that your WS have done?

From what you just shared, I think that OM is deliberately pushing your buttons, and because you haven't shut it down with some healthy boundaries, he feels free to continue.

You already mentioned that he's competitive with your husband so my thinking is that since you haven't told him the flirty stuff is wrong, he's pushing for more and more.

You and your husband together need to shut that down. You need to see that OM is not innocent as you portray him to be and he's more than willing to try to betray your husband. Your husband needs to know and the two of you need to develop some healthy boundaries, starting with him seeing his "best friend" and you seeing this guy for who he really is. A guy who would flirt with his best friend's wife aka this is not the behavior of an innocent man!

"I just need clarification on one part of this: Is it wrong of me to ruin their friendship if OM has not done anything wrong? At most he flirts lightly, makes unnecessary sexual references (that my ears seem to pick up like antennae)...but overall fairly harmless. He's never directly told me anything about "us" and once in awhile he has said things to push me away."

This OM is working you so he can get into your pants. Wake UP!

"I could tell BH his name today. OR I could just make a commitment to never hang around them when they're together. As BS which would you prefer that your WS have done?"

It's not what one prefers, it's what is right.

What is right for NC for you and the OM. NC for your BH and the OM because BH does not need a man for a friend that is trying to bang his wife. Does he?

You are doing everything you can here to sabotage NC.

Why?

Because secretly you want the OM to nail you.

Your BH must be aremed with the truth so he can protect himself and his marriage from you and the OM.

Tell your BH that the OM is not his friend but is the guy that you what to bang.

Just want to avoid t/j another thread where you said:


You've ALREADY interfered with their friendship. Sorry - already done, cat's out of the bag, milk has been spilt. Just because your husband doesn't know about it yet doesn't change the fact that the friendship is already ruined. To lie by omission is to compound the interference and abuse.

What Vibrissa said. Exactly.

Fullmoon, your H & OM wouldn't be friends in the first place if you gave your H the minimal courtesy of being truthful with him.

fullmoon,

I've been in your BH's shoes. I feel for him. I strongly suggest you counsel with the Harleys.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html

This guy you are having an A with is NOT a friend of either of you. There is NO friendship. This POSOM is a snake who has positioned himself to take advantage of both of you. Deep inside you know the image you've made of this OM is just a fantasy.

Do what's right and warn your BH about this serious threat. Otherwise your M will be practically doomed to fail.

--ElCamino72

I promise, if you were 400 lbs, mean as a shrew and pushing 90 he wouldn't be doing these things.

He also wouldn't persist if you didn't give him a response: a suggestive arch of brow, a secret smile, a 'friendly' touch...

He wants in your panties, and you have been thinking of dropping them....

How has the friendship between him and your husband NOT been damaged already?

You need to change your way of thinking about this. Think this way: "My M is my No. 1 Priority. Is it wrong for me to allow a situation to exist that could damage my M?" You'll have your answer.

Nothing - nothing - should be allowed to threaten your M. Any hint of a danger to your M must be promptly and vigorously weeded out of your life and eliminated in order to safeguard your M. In this case, the friendship with your H and OM needs to end. It is a threat to your M.

Another threat to your M is your dishonesty. Come completely clean with your H about this EA. You also need to eliminate all association with OM. For Life. You will need to write him a NC letter explaining to him that you will never see or communicate with him again. Your H needs to read it, approve it, and mail it.

You then need to start rebuilding your M. Read everything here.

I don't think you realize right now the huge bullet you've dodged by coming here. You've made a good first step.

What is your H like? Why do you enjoy this OM company more?
Bring this to your awareness and see what drives you to OM. If it is only sex, then it is a simple answer, however if your H is negletting you then you need to address this and mend your M.
Blessing

Ditto everything she said. I misread your intial post and thought this was an actual affair. I see now it is not!

Fullmoon,

Wouldn't the best possible future consist of having a romantic love with your husband? My H and I are not there right now (My H had a ONS and a 8-9 month A), but both of us hope to be. It is possible by using marriagebuilder's techniques.

One of the first things you should do is follow the advice on this thread and tell your H about your feelings for this OM. You are not destroying a friendship. This OM is no friend to either your H or your M. Friends do not maked sexually suggestive comments to their friends' wives. Cut this man out of your life, read the material here, read Dr. Harley's books and fall back in love with your H. You have come to the right place for help to do this.

Best wishes.

AM

There's a good chance that OM's intentions are more related to a sly competition with your BH. OM might not even care that much about you other than using you as a piece of a sick game.

You came to the right place to rescue your M. Listen to what the experienced folks here have to say. Tell your BH about your feelings for OM. Establish NC forever. Try your best to learn the MB tools to steer your M into a loving relationship. Get His Needs, Her Needs soon and read it with your H.

--ElCamino72

Fullmoon, once you tell your DH the truth, you might want to share this site with him. He may want to start his own thread because he will probably need our help too.

You've already betrayed your DH because in your mind you've lusted after OM and fantasized about sleeping with him FOR A LONG TIME. This wasn't just a one time deal, you've nurtured this fantasy and let it grow. You say you've admitted this partially to your DH but I'd be willing to bet he has no idea how intense your feelings have become for this OM.

OM is NO FRIEND to your marriage and he is certainly not a BEST FRIEND to your DH. Your DH needs to know that there is an enemy in the camp.

Come clean with DH before you damage your marriage beyond repair. Then bring him here.

You guys have no sympathy for me. Geez. J/k. <-- Just trying to lighten my mood...as I have some serious business to tend to tonight. Spurred on by your encouragement... or insistence...I will tell him tonight when I get home. In the meantime, I will read about the NC letter.

BH knows that I am a "serious" person and if I say I have feelings for someone, I really mean that. But, I did mention the "feelings" to BH several times...but that was months ago. BH may think that it has passed. And, I certainly, never led him in the direction of his friend. I "hypothesized" with BH that "Let's just say it's someone I met at work". BH, then, took that to mean it was someone I met at work. BH asked me for a name which I refused to give him at the time.

Well, I will let you know what happens after I tell him. I'm not looking forward to it. I AM looking forward to renewing and fortifying my marriage.

Study up on boundaries - great book by Townsend and Cloud by that name.

It will help you and your husband together protect your marriage.

Fullmoon,

This PREDATOR has been envious of what your husband has and has slowly been working you to try and steal you from your husband. Your husband needs to be woken up to what kind of dbag this OM is, trying to push all your right buttons to get into your pants. That's all OM is, a predator, and opportunist. He sees something he wants, and he doesn't care whose lives he has to ruin to get it. The way you end this thing is to tell everything to your BH. That way he can protect you from this OM because you obviously can't do it yourself. You also need to improve your boundaries. Normally, you are good at guys approaching you. Your weakness is friends of you BH and you let your guard down. Keep the same boundaries to friends of your BH as you would with any random guy in a bar.

Then once you and your BH get through this, you can use the MB program to figure out what OM was giving you, that your husband may have been lacking in. He can learn to meet your needs even better, and you meet his better.

I know the good folks on this board mean very well and some are experts, but in your case I would not tell BH till I speak with Steve Harley. You have not had a full blown A and there might be another way Steve can suggest to you. He might very well tell you to tell you H and go NC with OM, but it is worth hearing his opinion as he is an expert.
Again your situation is a little different from most in the way that usually a WS does not stop herself for a year and a half to start an A where she actually sees OM in flesh and bones. FB EA affairs can go on for years, but you have a lot of will power.
I would talk to Steve before telling your H anything....
My 2 cents
blessing

Read this again, fullmoon. Because this is really what it boils down to. Envy. Greed. OM is a dirtbag predator for even making vague sexual references to you in any way.

I would never suggest that a poster not speak with Steve, but I can't imagine him counselling her to continue covering this up. That's obviously not working for her.

Also, there is a thread of dishonesty running through fullmoon's posts that concerns me. Not that she's being dishonest with us - just the opposite. Fullmoon appears to be a basically honest person. But there is a climate of dishonesty surrounding her M that needs to end. Disclosure of this EA will blow some O&H into her M.

Afterwards, sure - I think it would be a great idea for fullmoon and her H to counsel with the Harleys and comb this website to restore their M.

I had a situation somewhat similar to yours, except mine involved a coworker. My coworker was engaging in intimate conversation with me and my husband was not. I began to have feelings for my coworker and noticed my behavior was becoming inappropriate. For example, I was responding to my coworker's attention with my own love languages...

This went on for 6 months.

I had hinted for a bit to my husband. Finally, I came right out and said what was happening. I didn't really look foward to it, but my "confessing" to my husband was actually a good experience for both of us, not something to be feared.

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't build the disclosure to your husband in your head. You don't know how your husband is going to take this new information.

I am not sure what Steve will suggest she does but he for sure will not encourage her to be dishonest. He might suggest her to approach disclosure to her H in a specific way given that this guy is "best friends" with H...you do not want best friend and H to gang up against fullMoon and call her a wh@re. OM, if confronted by H, will say that fullMoon was all interested in him and that by no means he has ever given a thought about having an A with her. Since BH will be angry at FullMoon he will most likely believe OM...
We do not want OM to keep face and fullMoon to lose it and anger her H beyond repair.
blessing

I LOVE THAT!

That just show's you how an open and honest marriage, can actually HELP! No matter how scared you are!

Atena,

Please take a look at Dr. Harley's comments about this topic in his book "Lovebusters". In one of the chapters (Resolving Conflicts Over Friends and Relatives), he talks about "a problem develops in marriage when you like your spouse's friend too much". He then talks about failure to follow the Policy of Radical Honesty. "Many affairs in the making can be safely sidetracked with honesty".

Keeping secrets is harmful to the M. This secret has to have been effecting the M and the H probably does not know what exactly is wrong or how to repair it.


AM

Reason for edit: It took me a long time to find the reference.

Aetna,
It seems as if you are speculating on H's response. Was there something I missed in fullmoon's posts that makes it seem as though H would chose to believe OM's comments bersus Fullmoon's?

So your husband ASKED you who it was because he feels he has the right to know. Read what you wrote again. Do you see how cruel it sounds? I suspect you told him as little as possible not because you want to be honest but because you are trying to clear your conscience.

Did you tell your husband everything?

What???? Where are you getting this? This is totally an assumption based on ????

I am CERTAIN that Steve H would counsel her to be 100% honest. What other "specific way" could there be? I don't understand this advice.

Sure, calling the coaching center is always a good idea but I don't think there's any other "specific way" to approach this other than with 100% truthfulness.

I agree with princess. If FM is serious about her marriage there's no reason to try to save face. The damage is done and open honesty is the only thing that's going get things going in the right direction. OM will be out of the picture after FM discloses to BS if they follow NC. No reason to consider what OMs reaction to this might be at all unless he's some kind of homocidal maniac.

Only my opinion, but respectfully, I think Atena's advice is off-the-mark. It's speculating on whether fullmoon's infatuation with OM is requited, but so what? What's beyond dispute is that she's been hiding the true situation from her H by concealing the OM's identity. The very last thing fullmoon needs is another faux excuse to keep him in the dark any longer. Her infatuation needs to be exposed to the person whose knowledge of it is most likely to be effectual in keeping her accountable, preventing further damage to the marriage, and setting them on a course to repair it.

Keeping my own wife in the dark when I had a momentary pang of conscience midway through my EA (before I took it PA) ranks equally with any of the worst decisions I ever made during the full course of my affair. Fullmoon needs to tell him asap, IMHO.

Agreed

Atena, Thank you for expressing your alternative opinion. While that is a much more palatable course of action to me (as it would buy me more time *lol), if the eventual outcome will be full disclosure I might as well bite the bullet.

Inrecoverynow, I have hinted at little things along the way, as well...but not quite so brave as to just "come out with it". As I mentioned previously, when I first met my husband he was exciting and challenging to me (a bit too much at the time...but I like a good challenge)...well, I am not too eager to reverse his good behavior with a disclosure that might push him completely in the wrong direction. He's so good to me...but men have pride. I don't know how he's going to react.

Then again, I can't be this person who has to "be secretive" and "dishonest by omission"...no matter what the fallout may be.

Luckily, I still have quite a few hours before I have to go home and face him.

One other thing, I read the info. about the NC letter in Coping with Infidelity Part 2: How Should Affairs End? and it seems like a bit of an overkill. My husband would never agree to send such a letter. In fact, he would probably not want the man to know that he even has effected me so much. Did you all send these NC letters? I agree with the exposure but not the NC.

FM. I think your missing the point. Are you assuming that your H would contiue this friendship after he finds out what this man and you have been doing? Make no mistake, the NC letter is one of the EPs you MUST put in place in order to ensure protection of your marriage. BOUNDARIES!

Umm I wouldnt speak for your husband yet. I was very complacent in my marriage even when she was telling me she was thinking about seperating. WHen I found out about the A I had a fire lit in my but and in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS did I want her near the OM.

So 1- your husband needs to decide and mail it.

Even if he doesnt YOU should write it and mail it and tell him. Otherwise you will NEVER be able to recover. You have to close off those paths of contact in your mind. THEN you will have a chance.

Your husband needs to understand that his friend is NOT an innocent victim. He was part ofthis and I guarantee if you hook the OM onto a polygraph that he will tell you a different story.

BTW YOU should consider taking a poly for your husband to PROVE there was no physical affair. The more you do to PROVE there is transparency and NC the easier recovery is.

I wouldn't assume anything when it comes to your husband's reaction. For all you know your husband may suspect his friend is attracted to you but then dismisses it as thinking crazy. Your husband may have seen him engage in sleazy behavior with women and put it all together.

I agree.... when you say "My husband would never agree" I think in your mind your thinking that you "HOPE" he says this. In reality, he will agree 110% to the NC letter

Most likely OM will accuse you of constantly hitting on him while he was ignoring your approaches. That's what happenned in my case.

Your BH is going to be confused and disoriented. He may see this as a double betrayal. Your job is to assure him through your actions that you're willing to do anything to protect him from your weakness.

Be prepared that BH is going to ask you WHY. The answer to that question is crucial. Under no circumstances imply that you did it because he wasn't meeting your EN or give excuses. Just take responsibility of your weak boundaries. When he asks you WHAT happenned tell him the facts. Be completely honest.

He's going to need help. Get counseling from the Harleys for both of you.

--ElCamino72

fullmoon, just to (re)state the obvious here:

Like ElC said, your BH is going to ask why. He will likely ask for other details, as well, either now or at some point in the future, (or all of the above).

DO NOT LIE.

Be wary, as you are engaging/have engaged in self-deception already. Do your best to give honest (radical, NOT brutal) answers, even if you think they will hurt your BH, hurt your chances of recovery, seem unnecessary... Be honest with yourself, be honest with your BH.

Get things off on the right foot by committing to complete openness and honesty from here on out.

WELCOME TO MARRIAGE BUILDERS

Now, be completely 100% honest with your H.

fullmoon,

In the long run, you won't regret disclosing this situation to your BH. It's going to help him tremendously if you do it right.

Start the conversation with a simple and direct statement. Avoid any preamble and just say it. "BH, I need to tell you something important. I have romantic feelings for OM" (vets, please help rephrase this if necessary)

Do not to soften the message by saying things like "I didn't try to hurt you" or ask for immediate forgiveness. Own your behavior.

You need to listen to his reaction, as hard as it can be, without justifications. Stay away from arguing or dancing around the issue. Keep in mind that this conversation is about him and the actions YOU are taking to recover your marriage.

Showing remorse and empathy to his pain will go a long way. More importantly, put emphasis on the precautions you're willing to take to prevent this from happening again.

--ElCamino72

The more I am sitting here thinking about this and the closer I'm getting to going home for the evening, the more *anxious* I am becoming. I just can't imagine BH wants to know this stuff. I don't want him to be disoriented and feel a double-betrayal. If it were me, I'd want to have a chance to protect my M. Okay.

Okay, I just need to remain calm.

I do love my husband. I don't want to hurt him. My husband doesn't even believe in EM. He only gets upset if he thinks I want to sleep with someone (which, up until this point, I could honestly deny and calm him down). And it's going to be difficult to be 100% honest about this whole thing without revealing that I have thought about that. I know that's what he's going to ask me first. Then, he's going to explode..... Okay. Alright, I shouldn't assume.

Sorry, I became nervous for a minute.

Thanks, everyone, for helping *push* me in the direction I knew (in the back of my mind) that I needed to go.

So what if he explodes. Would that be the worst thing to have to endure for 15 minutes? Or you could keep avoiding conflict for the next 30 years. How's that working out for you? It wouldn't because within another 6 months you'll be sleeping w/ OM if you don't tell your husband. Tell him you want to sleep with OM. Let it all out. It will be theraputic, and I guarantee your BH will never let you near OM again.

Take a look at This *LINK*

What "step" do you think you are on?

You might want to print out the steps before you disclose yourself to your H.
You can use the steps to help H understand the process.

Good luck!

QFT.

There are almost NO barriers left to this happening. If you keep talking to him eventually the last few will erode away. Maybe its alcohol, a bad day, or you ate too much cheesecake.

Ask any of the FWW around here. When they started talking to the OM it wasnt about SF. Eventually the rationalizing came then it just happened.

The link you got about the steps to infidelity is huge. You can read yourself in there.

I also used to believe that there was nothing wrong with my wife having friendships of the opposite sex. I even felt guilty when I started to suspect of her having an A.

Me and my wife used to think that having independent lives was a wonderful thing. Now we know where that path leads. It's a slippery slope. Get out of it and save your M NOW.

Telling your BH is going to be hard. Recovering is going to be even harder. Don't let your weaknesses define your life. With strength comes reward - a happy and loving M.

--ElCamino72

Pepperband, wow...we've covered 1-8. There have been no special gifts given or received...though, actually, I have bought him 3 things on 3 separate occasions (that I never gave him). After I purchased them, I thought to myself, "Are you crazy?! What are you thinking?!" But I was just so excited to buy it. It's still at my house. And he makes excuses to call me every now and then (to talk about random things I don't even think he cares about). 11-15 we have not done at all. But I do see how it could be headed there.

Now, tell your H where you fall on this list.

I hope this eases your mind.

Progress!

Or, as my H says:

PROGRESS not PERFECTION

Gloveoil's great advice to a WW.
*link*

Gloveoil is a man, BTW.

Hey, fullmoon? Stop thinking for your H. And don't try to do this half-baked or it'll blow up in your face.
1. H needs to know.
2. OM needs a letter stating in no uncertain terms that you will never speak or associate in any way with him. That makes it "official" for all parties, so there can be no question.
3. OMW needs to know, so she can protect herself and her M from an H that obviously has loose/no boundaries.

Just do it.

pepperband,

Couldnt find the article on that link.

Hmm...I don't know where to begin. I hemmed and hawed and stuttered and pulled my hair and finally managed to say, "Remember when I told you I had feelings for someone...it is/was your friend." He never even bothered to ask, "What friend?" He didn't show the slightest hint of shock. (He only has one friend that I show an inordinate amount of interest in...only one that would be "my type".) Instead he wanted to know why I was telling him this, what does this mean, I want to be free to be a sl...??? I assured him that I did not want to be free, I want to make our marriage "transparent", I want it to be 100%.

He says I shouldn't be telling him this sort of thing. Attractions are going to happen. I have cute friends, sure...that doesn't mean anything. Just like this doesn't mean anything. "There are plenty of pretty girls in the world, but only one [you]." He says that I am trying to make something out of nothing...and he doesn't want to hear any details. He doesn't want to write a Plan A or a NC letter. I should only talk to him about this sort of thing after I have already slept with someone by saying, "Our relationship is over. Goodbye." and I should never tell him I slept with someone...just say. "Goodbye."

And he said a lot of other things about life in general, how it is simple and people complicate things unnecessarily...

It ended up being therapeutic for me because now I am not weighed down by a "secret". But I am still in the same place in that I am only accountable to my own self for my own actions. He's not planning to change a thing. He truly believes that I am literally incapable of doing this thing I keep worrying about.
He believes in me so much that maybe I should believe in myself that much.

I wonder if I am making it more "complicated" than it is.

We went on to have a great evening...dinner and a movie and so forth...with the kids safely tucked away at their grandparents' home. To him, that's the end of it. He doesn't want me to try to tell him again...but to resolve these issues within myself...

Well then...it sounds like your husband doesn't want to set up some new boundaries to protect the marriage, good for you, BAD for the marriage.

This is now up to you my dear, are you willing to place boundaries to protect your marriage, so you don't get into another EA? Or possibly a PA with his friend?

If you don't set boundaries to protect your marriage then we will either see you again or your husband on this forum, this time it wont be a EA.

GOOD LUCK!

I say give him a day or two to allow what you told him to sink in. His attitude is likely to change, now that you've indicated that his friend is now in "competition" with him for your attention. In the meantime, it's time for you to start executing your NC plan with that friend of his.

Yes you must go NC with this OM. Just cut him out.

You husband is in bigtime denial, and is very ignorant about the anatomy of an affair.

But, don't blame him. Most of us were just as ignorant before it happened to us. Heck, I didn't even know there was such a thing as an "Emotional Affair". It is definitely worlds different than him thinking one of your girlfriends is cute or hot.

I agree with the others in that you must go no contact with this other man and find the strength to do all this on your own. Go ahead and write the NC letter and give the OM and your husband a copy. Politely decline to go anywhere when the OM is going along with your husband. If he comes to your house, leave before he gets there.

Your husband will see how seriously you are taking this issue and start to see the gravity of the situation.

He thinks you view this friend as someone as someone you'd like to sleep with if you were still single. From a man's point of view, I run into dozens of women every day that fit that bill. Doesn't mean I'm lusting after them or have an emotional attachment already, or that I would even be tempted.

Self admittedly your case is much different. There is already a fairly deep emotional attachment and the physical part is inevitable if nothing is done. I don't think you've done a good enough job impressing that upon your husband.

Fullmoon,

I agree with the previous comments. Many, if not most people, consider an affair to be physical and do not consider the steps before sexual contact to be an affair.

Did you share the 15 steps of an affair with your H and tell him that you were up to considering step 9? I certainly wish my H shared with me his beginning steps down the "slippery slope".

AM

In your first post on this thread you said:


Is this what you told your H, or did you only tell him about your deep attraction?

There is a big, big difference.

Why don't you tell him that you do not want to be an adulterer but in your mind you already are and that you desperately need his help and his protection right now to help you avoid that very real possibility?

That is a good point! have you told your H that you love this man?

If not, then your husband doesn't know the extent to your EA.

Also, did you relate to your H that OM was reciprocating by making comments to you?

Question:

You say you have a renewed interest in your sex life and have become almost insatiable (I'm sure your husband likes this). Have you ever in even the smallest part, thought of the OM while you've been with your husband? Have you ever imagined it was him you were with and not your husband?

If you have, you might want to let your husband know that.

DeltaDr, Thank you for reminding me of what I wrote on that first post: "...I feel that I love him."

There is a reason that people have to "get caught" in A because it was excruciating trying to get the words out of my mouth. BH doesn't consider this an A at all. The *only* thing he considers an affair is Step #15. Of course, that's good for me. I get to experience all the "euphoric feelings" of being around OM with no consequences and no guilt. If BH doesn't believe it's an A, and he is the primary barometer of whether or not my marital behavior is acceptable, then I don't have to think it's an A (for our relationship). Each relationship is different, right?

Well, okay...so I'm not quite that naive. I am happy he didn't bite my head off as I struggled...and I'm happy to have cleared my mind of this little "secret" (that, evidentally, was no secret...as he didn't even blink when I told him). I appreciate you helping me tell him. (FYI: I didn't go into brutal detail as he told me not to tell him...and I breathed a sigh of relief...)

Schtoop, I agree with your suggestions to decline to go anywhere with them and leave when he comes over. I will not send him any email. I previously removed myself from FB as I found myself alternately agitated by OM and posting poetry *WTF!?@!?* on FB. (<-- That was almost 6 months ago.)

But my H may have a point??? What if we all could be in such control of our emotions (as my H is). Maybe we wouldn't have or acknowledge a such thing as an EA??? Maybe that would help our M???

Sounds to me you don't want to set any boundaries to help protect your marriage...sigh

All I can say at this point is good luck...and we will see you or husband in a year when the A turns physical! Or you finding another man, trust me it will happen.

I couldn't believe that I started having feelings for another man other than my husband, he (Husband) was everything to me! After the first EA, he didn't expose, I told him I wouldn't do it again, but guess what? I found someone else, and the 2 EA is the one that I decided to leave the M, thankfully my husband found this site before it got WAY WORSE!

So when it does happen, you can blame your husband (just like every other Wayward out there...including me!) because "he didn't care" when you first brought it up to him, so he was the one that enabled you to sleep with the OM, or find someone else.

Just remember that we warned you!

Sapphire, I absolutely do want to set boundaries. That was the point of the exposure. I've been on the MB site for less than 2 days and I feel that I have completed a very important step...and willing to do more.

Should I give my H details that he doesn't want? Should I push and push until he runs out to have an A of his own? You know what he said to me. "You know what could come of this? Luckily I'm not the sort of man who will be looking over my shoulder every time my friend comes over...or I didn't just leave the house in anger, go to a bar, drinking, and [censored] some girl."

I am considering your views, my H views, and my own views. I am trying to do the right thing...that's why I am here. I've never discussed my feelings with this man, touched this man inappropriately, kissed him...I am here to prevent that. And I think I'm going in the right direction.

I understand that your husband doesn't want to set any boundaries...that is fine...what I am saying is WILL YOU set your own boundaries to protect the family and marriage? You can have personal boundaries of your own you know, they don't have to be shared...for example for my personal boundaries...

I do not chat or talk to any other male friends unless husband is there with me.

I do not talk about my personal relationship with any other male friend.

I do not give out my personal information such as email, phone numbers, FB, etc to any male friends, even if they were friends from my child hood.

Those are just a few of my personal boundaries, my husband didn't tell me I HAD TO DO this, no, they were MY boundaries to protect MY marriage AND family

I am asking what are you willing to do to help your marriage so you don't end up in another EA, or end up having a PA with this man?

Yes!

Wanting to set boundaries and ensuring they are set NO MATTER WHAT are different. Your husband needs to understand that he will have to help you by allowing you to be accountable to him.

Taking precautions like Sapphire indicated above is advisable. Are you willing to put these precautions in writing and present them to your husband?

A couple posters asked if you printed out the "Anatomy of Adultery - 15 Steps of Unfaithfulness," showed it to your H and indicated to him which steps you've completed with OM.

Have you?

FM. Something is wrong here. I find it difficult to believe your H won't address this. He's burying his head in the sand and you've got to help him unbury it. If you don't you or he WILL end up in a PA. I tend to believe you when you say you want to tutn this around. But you can't bury your head in the sand along with your husband. It's good you are starting to put in place the NC issue but at the same time you can't ignore the conflict between you and hubby. It may seem like there wouldn't be a conflict when you ignore this but it's there, under ground, just waiting to surface. Conflict avoidance won't work. It's got to be surfaced and addressed.

You're doing well and I hope you continue in this direction but have you considered ALL the possible reasons your H is avoiding addressing this? Have you asked him why this doesn't seem to be a big deal?

Maybe he is not soo big on the idea because he too has fantasies about OW. Most men do. So they do not think this is a big deal.
The big deal, that IMO, only FM can deal with is the fact that she interacts with OW in the absence of her H. It is also that she has allowed herself to keep the fantasy about OW alive by fueling it daily.
The solution is pretty simple: do not see OM, especially alone and do not think about him. Period. At the beginning it will be hard but then, as NC is established, it will be easier.
Just talk to OM and tell him that you never want to see him again and that he will be wise to help you do this.

blessing

If this is the approach your husband takes to you admitting you are in an EA, then your marriage stands no chance. Either you will have another A or continue to escalate this affair with his "blessing," or he will have his own affair because he does not recognize proper marital boundaries. Either way, I don't see your marriage getting better. You might want to sit down with him and ask him to participate in a marriage builders program with you (reading the books, filling out the EN and LB questionnaires, spending 15 hours undivided time together and affair proofing your marriage). If he just blows it off, I would venture to say you probably won't be married 20 years from now. Some guys won't do anything until divorce is staring them straight in the face.

I have a BAD feeling about this. I could be wrong but I suspect your husband isn't being truthful with you. I have close friends who had husband's like your husband saying they would never have an A and they were disgusted by those who did. Then the poor wives are floored when this same man had an A.

Also, FM, allow me to say this and I hope you are not offended. But I think you have a wayward mind and attitude in that you easily fall for OMs. YOu said this is the first time but this does not mean anything. I am 45 and in whole my life I only had 2 men. While with them, I have never engaged into friendship with OM. Now I am in plan B and had a couple of guys interested in me, however I did not go out with them nor gave them any hope.
I am giving you this example because being unfaithful, to me, is a predisposition. I am sorry but it is. You have to be cut out for it especially when, like in your case, your H is nice, upbeat and loves you. He gives you no reason to betray him.
My WH is just like you, he indulged in fantasies about OW all the time and now the M is destroyed.
H was bored and he needed excitement.
Are you bored? If so, find an interest that fullfils you. Affairs are very unlikely to give you anything you will feel good about having accomplished nor are the answer to personal growth.
Go back to school, get another degree...keep active mentally. Do not keep your mind occupied with OM.
Keeping your mind occupied with OM tells me only one thing: you are bored out of your mind: who would want to do such a stupid thing if one was happily married?
blessing

That's what I suspect too. He's either had his own fling, he's currently involved in one, or now he thinks the way is clear for him to do what he wants.

Yes, you must be talking about my WH. He did say those things now that I come to remember. He said them for the first 12 years of our M. He said there was not reason for him to be jelous and look over his shoulder all the time and said he would not have an A. He only had 2 that I know of...and when he did not have any he was accompanying his best friend to strip clubs because his wife was not giving him any. By the way this guy was a former porn movie producer. Nice friends my WH had! Another of his friends married a stripper!
blessing

I think its a little excessive to accuse the BH of having an A at this point. We all put our heads in the sand and allowed ourselves to be gas lighted. i KNEW in my HEART that my M was suffering but I chose to ignore it for a very long time. This BH is probably doing the same thing.

I just dont want to accuse her BH of doing the WORSE sin in a marriage from him ignoring a confession a couple of times. Most likely he doesnt know how close he is to the edge.

I appreciate all of your opinions. I came onto the "Surviving Affairs" forum because I expected to receive strong (even hostile, if necessary) opinions on the matter. This thing has been going on for far too long in my mind...and I DO need for it to end. I am a highly educated woman. I have (and require) plenty of stimulation in my career, in my personal life, and in my bedroom.

Atena, I have had one man my entire life. I didn't expect that I would marry my first boyfriend but that's how it turned out. As for my wayward thinking (meaning thinking that does not align with yours), we can call it "wayward" for the sake of MB. Where I come from, we call it "human" to be attracted to the opposite sex. I do not "easily" fall for other men. I may have mentioned before that I am usually quite adept a thwarting their advances. I am here because I had not been as successful in this instance.

This was H's friend so I did not have any "guard" up with him...I barely looked at him for a couple years. There came a time in my marriage when my H and I had been bickering over little things that coincided with a time when OM started seeking to talk to me more whenever he came to our home...and it just kinda *clicked*. I thought it would go away as easily as it appeared and it did not.

This *thing* is the only issue I have with myself. I am a pretty strong woman overall and these tenacious feelings shook me. I am a pretty smart woman and have the good sense to seek help where I can't do it alone. I'm here to beat this. And I will. I have already been talking about this with my family and friends (as I told you my sibling gave me advice not to speak to OM about this). I am already exposed to them...but they all think nothing of it and think it will just go away (like I was thinking). And I told them *brutal* details. So you recommended that I expose to H and I acted quickly.

I am not going to beat him over the head with it, tell him exactly what position I had hoped to get in under OM, tell him how the sun shines because he's alive, the comparisons between OM and himself. What I am going to do is fix it...starting with the NC. Thank you all for insisting on the exposure to H and the NC. I am committed to that.

ArmyMama, I will, also, share with him the 15 steps. He did not want to hear anymore at that time and I was not going to cram it down his throat.

I somewhat feel that many of you believe the "exposure" was a failure. I didn't break him down to his lowest depths of despair and he didn't explode in bitter anger. Maybe you need for him to explode because that's what "normal" people do...non-"wayward" people. I've known him over a decade and have never seen him cry one time. That's just who he is.

I am happy that I came here because you have been able to offer some constructive advice and criticism...but where and when it becomes personal attacks that serve no forward-purpose, I don't respect that.

As for predisposition, I'm "predisposed" to have my way, to win, and to survive...so sure I'm "predisposed" to what feels good to me. If I don't think it's for the best, I fight it. Not to beat a dead horse, but that's why I'm here.

fullmoon, we are all predisposed. As humans, we are all wired to have an affair given the "right" set of circumstances. That is what MB and Dr. Harley teach. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional.

I was delusional for a long time because I believed while I had it in me (I've been tempted but have never cheated), I believed my husband didn't have it in him.

Guess what? He cheated. With my own sister.

Some here said he must be extra (fill in the blank) to do such a thing. Steve Harley of MB tells me no, that while it's extra painful for me and my family, it's only evidence that my H has a pulse and is wired like the rest of us.

Through MB counseling I've learned that if each of us married people don't have a plan to avoid temptation, each of us is susceptible to failure.

You and your husband are not different. Not sure why anyone here would make you out to be different or unique.

I commend you for coming here for guidance and hope you'll stick around!

fullmoon, I do think that a VERY simple and non-intrusive way to explain the impact OM has had on you to your H is to print out that sheet and highlight which steps have already occurred.

You don't even need to speak to him.

Just hand it to him.

Something from my NOTABLE POSTS thread which helps define what constitutes an affair.

Take care.

I believe you DO want to set boundaries, and I applaud you for the work you've done so far. I'm not sure why your H reacted the way he did. I would suspect that he at least feels "aware" now.

In any event, you've learned that you have to police yourself. Good job.

ITA. Without knowing her H it is hard to say what he's thinking. I wonder if he needs more time to process this, and there is more to come?

You know what I did on D-Day, after DH confessed to me? I told him okay, we'll work this out. Then I got in the car and went to work! Of course, I didn't work a lick that day, but I look back on that and think WTF??? I know it's because I went into shock and was going through the motions. And the sh*tstorm blew in later that evening.

Maybe her H is doing something similar.

All good points. I still feel FM needs to help him get his head out of the sand if he won't do it himself.

DeltaDr, I like your idea of printing the list and highlighting the completed steps. I have printed it and I will give it to him to review.

Serenity, Perhaps the above step (recommended by DeltaDr) will give him a better understanding.

DeltaDr, I'm sorry about your sister. I can only imagine how difficult that must have been for you. I witnessed (the effects of) infidelity throughout my childhood. I hadn't even noticed the impact it had until I was a grown woman and dating BH. I never expected BH to be faithful at all. I was on a constant mission to "catch him". (He inadvertently fueled the fire by an incident that occured early on in the relationship... nonetheless...) But I never "caught him" at anything.

Suamico & Meggy, I gave up trying to play detective. I'm not even worried about what he is doing at this point; I'm too concerned about what I'm doing. I'm worried about the person I am or am becoming. BH was/is having lunch with a group of girls every day at his job. I don't believe in "being friends" with the opposite sex. (The only reason OM and I are "friends" is because he's BH's friend and he has been in my house so much.) "Co-workers" are a breeding ground for As; you spend so much time during the day with them. But BH is home every night (almost), the perfect father, he professes his love for me loudly and unabashedly wherever we go. If he can have As and hide it so perfectly and take care of me and my children so thoroughly...well, what I don't know can't hurt me. But if I find out, there's going to be hell to pay (of course).

Bliss, I did not tell BH any comments that OM is making. I don't know what OM is doing; I have no clue what his intent is. Maybe OM is doing "nothing" and I am reading things into it that aren't there. People who are infatuated have been known to do that. Perhaps he's an innocent bystander and I am about to ruin his friendship for no reason. I don't want to do that.

Or playing devil's advocate, perhaps he is *intentionally* involved in this with me. But I'm married; he's not. This is my responsibility...not his.

On a positive note, you guys have redirected my attention so much to my H (and his feelings) in the last couple of days, I had no time to think all those OM thoughts I would have otherwise been thinking. *whew* What a tough (yet freeing *lol*) couple of days this has been. Thank you MB friends! :-)

P.S. Vibrissa, Luckily, (Thank God!) I do not think of OM when I am *with* my husband S...or else I would have been sure that a D was over the horizon...desperate to run off with my soulmate.

Maybe you should read about Anne505's thread

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2340748#Post2340748

She thought the same thing, perfect husband, praised her, etc!

I'm glad you are going to print that sheet out and highlight it and give it to your H! If he still doesn't care, then it wont hurt just to "LOOK" what your H is doing, if there is nothing then your set

I believe there is no such thing as "snooping" in a marriage, because in every marriage there should be NO secrets! All you are doing is just checking his emails and phone, no biggy!

I think others are right that your husband has his head in the sand - and it looks like you're taking steps to get him to remove it (which is good).

Another possible tact - you've already exposed yourself (haha!) - and he has apparently said "i don't want to hear anymore about it" - so how about saying "I understand your position - so let's look at it a different way - I feel like our marriage is in a bit of a rut - and I want to work to get it back on track" - then ask if he'd be willing to read His Needs / Her Needs with you.

Difficult to say no after such a pitch (though I'm sure many do).

If he read hnhn - that might very well help him to get his head out - and see what is going on here (ie - that there is work to be done)

Did you tell your BH how the OM says things to you that are inapropriate? Or that these said by the OM are done with one goal to get into a girls pants?

Your H needs to know this. I'm beginning to see why he doesn't think this is a big deal. You need to tell him that you feel there was a two-way street.

H is not yet home; he called me after his game (he plays rec sports). I dared to broach the topic again in preparation to give him this list when he comes home. He reiterated some points (from yesterday) and made a couple new points:

- He does not think like the typical person. He keeps trying to tell me that.
- It means more to him that I have urges for someone but love him more-- so much that I won't act on those urges...than if I didn't have feelings for someone.
- I could be in *"emotional turmoil"* trying to stop myself from being with this man for all he cares; as long as I stop myself from "doing anything" (i.e. sex) then he doesn't care.
- He doesn't believe in emotional affairs so it doesn't matter to him.
- Telling him about my interest in his friend is what is creating the problem. Otherwise there is no problem.
- He says, "Your thoughts are your own...that's why other people can't hear what you're thinking. You don't tell me about this..."

I asked him how he can be sure I won't do anything. He says he doesn't think about it; he'll think about it after it's done.

I told him I'm not trying to upset him by bringing this up again, I explained that I was on this website posting with people and getting advice...and I just want to "make sure"... He doesn't think I should be listening to other people. I need to answer my own questions within my own self.

He told me not to worry about him being upset, he's worried about me. I'm always telling him about something I read in a book or on the internet...stuff that gets me all worked up...and he's trying to protect me from that. He's happy and we don't have any marital problems.

Well, it doesn't look like he's going to get the list, after all. I did the printing and highlighting exercise...and read the first paragraph of HNHN off the internet (about to go Barnes and Noble to see if it's there). But I have to say, I already feel 1000 times better. There is no secret, my H somehow managed to feel more secure in the fact that I am "denying" myself due to my love for him, and I haven't had OM-specific fantastical thoughts swirling in my head for the past couple days. I think I'll be able to beat this in short order...now that I finally exposed (to H).

I'm going to read the HNHN book just to have a few extra pointers. :-)

Road and Bliss, I did not tell BH anything about OM's behavior. I don't want to implicate OM if he felt his flirtations were harmless. I can only confess to what my feelings were.

Furthermore, I'm going to have to say it seems that H already *knew of* (or perceived) any attraction between us...but just believed/believes that I would not make it become physical (the only thing that matters to him). I guess he was correct. Instead of taking on the PA, I researched, bought books, talked to friends and family, posted my "secret" on the internet/decided to seek help.

I am just going to continue to read, stick around here for awhile, NC with OM, and fortify myself and my M from any potential future threats.

Thank you immensely for your prompt and firm responses and for pushing me into the action [exposure] (that I apparently could not force myself into).

Do you not understand that your feelings didn't exist in a vacuum? OM ENCOURAGED you. Your H needs to know this - it may help his understanding of what happened.

I just thought I might relate some of my story.

I was upfront about my EA (although of course I didn't call it that) from the beginning. I let my H know every time I was seeing OM. He had his head well and truly in the sand.

IN retrospect he says now that he saw it as a kind of get out for himself at times - he didn't have to meet all my needs, he could share that with someone else and then for some of the rest of the time I could see it was really eating him up but he just couldn't tell me to stop it. I wanted him to tell me to stop it and accept that it was an EA, I often discussed the subject of EAs with my H - neither of us had ever heard of them. I, like you became exceptionally horny at that time and went all out for sex with my H.

As I got deeper in I would lie by ommision about our meetings and then it started to become physical (no sex) at about 18months.

I confessed properly after 20 months and told my H I wanted to end it and found this site.

He wasn't interested in the methods for closing down the A, just wanted to chalk up to experience and put it to one side.

But when I started talking NC and exposure he wanted to join in (I knew I was vlunerable to a relapse).

I think it was his friends and their hatred for FOM that made him realise that my EA and feelings didn't start in a vacuum.

I notice on the managing memories thread that you say you are over OM already. It took me a full 6months of NC to be over OM - and now after 18months I sometimes get this feeling that I am not over the fantasy of the A.

Once I'd got through the first month or so of withdrawl and we went through hysterical bonding (which I think is due to this deep honesty and conversation that comes after the trauma of dday) I thought that I was over OM - but then there were several relapses in my head about how wonderful OM was and I really had to fight myself not to pull up his FB page.

Please go careful in these early months - do everything you can to avoid those triggers of OM. I'm concerned that you are defending OM. Of course he will deny intent. The friendship has already been sullied. He did that by flirting with his friend's wife.

I can't tell whether your H has is head in the sand or whether he just doesn't want to believe it and is minimising it (as my H did).

Yes, FM, we do not think alike and there is such a thing as a wayward mind, you get to see it pretty clearly after a while. Ask MelodyLane.
I am not trying to be difficult here, I am just stating my opinion.
You are making a very simple situation very difficult.
When you said it 'clicked" what you actually said was that you allowed yourself to indulge into thoughts of OM. OK, we are humans but we are in control of our actions and thoughts. You choose to indulge in those thought. This is how A start, by choice.
If your M only has some bickering and you fell for OM then when a true crises happens what will you do?
Every M has problems and some M have problems bigger than what you described as bickering.
You H does not want to hear about your falling for his friend so this leave the ball in your court. You have to find the strenght on you own to overcome this situation and postin here will help you and maybe even talking to the Harleys.
Even if your H might have something going on the side...which we can't be sure of, he is not to blame.
You have to find the strenght.
blessing

Atena, My H has said the *exact* same thing! ...that I am "making a very simple situation...difficult". So maybe you and I don't think alike but you and H do (in that regard).

The last few posters have focused on my unwillingness to say anything about OM's behavior. I hear you. How can I tell SoMessedUp not to feel sympathy for his OW and yet "defend"/"protect" OM? That would be hypocritical. Right? Right.

So...this is the third day I'm getting on this topic with H now. It's first thing in the morning and H has to wake up to this today. He says, "Those people won't be happy until you're getting divorced."

This morning I just opened up the website in plain view so he might be curious enough to ask me "What are you reading now?" or something. ...which he did...giving me the perfect opportunity to jump right in. We just talked about the EA topic (with him reiterating the same premise that EA does not matter)...but, at least, we got on the topic of OM.

He said OM name today (so we're definitely on the same page), he said he doesn't want to know about me fantasizing about sleeping with his friend, he doesn't understand how we could have an emotional/mental connection when we barely talk, OM and I don't talk about anything, I just like the way he looks, it's selfish of me to ruin his friendship with OM/my friendship with OM/and the trust that we have in our M over something that is not going to happen (PA)...now maybe he's not going to be able to invite OM over to the house because he'll be thinking "things".

Uh...okay, so I froze up a little but I just told him that OM and I talk about "things", he knows that I don't become attracted to men merely for looks and some things I thought about OM, in general. Okay, so that didn't exactly blame him for anything...but it's progress. Right?

Staytogether, Thank you for sharing your story. I know I am a bit anxious to move to the stage of "over it". I will try to tread lightly. Of course, I have been completely emersed in this website and I have neither seen nor communicated with OM, spent all my time trying to figure out H's feelings and not OM...maybe it is giving me a premature feeling of "victory". *lol* I'll be careful.

No one wants to see you divorced, your husband couldn't be more wrong. After all, this is a marriage building site. What we want is for you to be 100% truthful to your husband. Sure, your confessed YOUR feelings for OM and your husband sees this as harmless. What he DOESN'T know is what you originally posted about the things OM has said to you. I'm not so sure he would see THAT as harmless. Why NOT tell husband the same things you told us? In fact, why don't you print off this whole thread and ask husband to read it. If he STILL feels it's harmless, then you've got bigger problems that just a potential EA.

Its awsome that you can identify that you are breeching your boundaries here. I guess the real issue is that your marriage is starting to flounder, and a new spark is needed. Your husband does not realize this, and it makes it hard for him to understand.

If you tell your husband that you are fantasizing about another man, and you never really talk or email, then your husband will not care. Probably because men in general, like me, fantasize about women a lot (Marcos is an exception). However, I draw my boundaries to never act on those fantasies, flirt with another woman, or set up some way that I can contact her.

It never hurts to do a boundary check to make sure that your boundaries are strong. Write down some type of commitment to yourself to re-enforce your boundaries. Sit down with your husband and say, we need to strengthen our marriage or something bad will happen.

"Sit down with your husband and say, we need to strengthen our marriage or something bad will happen."

or BH I really need your help!

TRUST ME!! I never...ever...in my life thought I would cheat on wheels! We were happy, in love, and just excited about life! I was in shock when it first happened with the first EA, but not too surprised that it happened again in a matter of months.

But this here what wheels mentioned to do is probably the smartest thing you can do to protect your marriage even if it's "silly" to him.

That is much better. That is MB material all the way!

What was the incident? I find it interesting that you put "caught him" in quotes. It sounds like you do think he was unfaithful but have no concrete proof.


Again, this sounds like you are not comfortable with your BH's boundaries. Have you talked to him about how you feel about him going to lunch with other women?


WRONG!!!! What you don't know CAN hurt you. I know you came here because of your EA but I think you also have concerns about your husband. You can work on both. Sometimes we suppress things and they only come out after we start opening up about how we feel.

This doesn't make sense to me. He would rather have you attracted to someone else but love him more than have you NOT be attracted to anyone else but him?


I don't know you or your husband but if I was in your shoes and this was my husband's reaction I would be concerned. It sounds like he is indifferent to me.

If your husband doesn't want any of the boundaries to protect his marriage then that is a BIG FAT sorry, but I don't know your husband like you know him, I just know what I've experienced and read.

Hmm...you all seem quite concerned with H's behavior...

For years, I was concerned that I never once saw him cry. We have actually been through many trials as a couple (no "proven" infidelity); we are good at "weathering the storm".

Atena, interestingly enough it was the minor "bickering" that was more annoying than the BIG trials. "Bickering" is like a gnat flying around your head, it's not gonna kill you...but it could drive you insane. *lol*

You know, I just accept him for who he is: indifferent, nonchalant, emotionally inpenetrable(when it comes to certain things)... He's truely genuinely happy because he doesn't allow "the world", other people's opinions, other people's problems get to him. It is a magnificent thing to see. How many people do you know who are truely unequivocally and stubbornly steadfast in their happiness? That's H. I really love and admire that about him.

Incidentally, OM seems to be an emotional storm waiting to release (with the proper encouragement), seems like he holds so much...like I could explore him for days and days and years and still find new and exciting material. Uh oh...better not go down this road. Staytogether, you see that? Enough of that.

[[COMPARISON]] Sapphire, how do I make one of those little red flags???

So...hmm...that was the first time I thought of him that way in the last few days...

So, I don't try to force my H to feel what he doesn't feel or accept what he doesn't accept. In exchange, I get relative autonomy in my life...or so it seems. I can go where I want, do what I want, he is never suspicious, he hardly ever questions me, and certainly NEVER ask questions that he doesn't want the answers to.

If my mind were able to handle a PA, I don't think he'd ask a single question to find out. He doesn't want to know...because then our M would be over. Then, he'd have to start all over again at making a new happiness...a new happy home.

Wheels and Sapphire, I do need to reinforce those boundaries for myself...because I am not like my H. I am a very emotional person, I live and die by "what-I-feel" "how-I-feel" "where-I-feel", I watch sappy movies to cry with and fall in-love with the story. *lol* And I sense that, on top of whatever S magic OM and I could create, his emotional depths might take me on an incredible ride. Great. *sigh*

I don't think it's a good idea to talk about this...

You click "switch to full reply screen" then click on the happy face "smilies"

Thanks, Sapphire.

I just want to point out that just a few posts ago I was becoming quite full of myself and happy that I was nearly *finished*. Now look what you've all done.

I'm going to go comment on someone else's page. I'm tired of this.

Beware of your thoughts for they become words,
Beware of your words for they become actions,
Beware of your actions for they become habits,
Beware of your habits for they become character,
But most of all...
Beware of your character for it becomes your destiny.

Pepperband, I read that post before, thank you. Oh I was so disappointed that I could still have a positive feeling about OM; I was upset the whole evening. I am moving too fast to put this behind me, sweep it under the rug, etc. I don't know what to do to stop those little sneaky thoughts from rearing their ugly heads for good. I'm really frustrated about that. I'm trying to exonerate this guy (OM), give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he didn't mean it, maybe he thought it was "harmless". Then again, maybe he didn't.

...maybe OM is a sneaky little bas.... doing what he can to separate me from my H. MAYBE he's having a little fun playing with my emotions. Or perhaps something that started off as "harmless" was getting a little out of hand. Regardless, he is not an "angel" and it would serve me and my M well to keep that in mind.

I just felt nauseous...I feel like I'm missing something here...

Oh yeah, good news about H! Well, I was rather quiet/pensive after the little OM thought earlier today. I want this to be OVER yesterday! So, H picked up on my mood immediately upon seeing me. He asked what's wrong. "Nothing." I didn't want to talk. He continued to try to find out-- so I tried to modify my behavior (i.e. be a little more "chirpy") because I didn't want to talk to him about this for a 4th day?!@!?* I just couldn't. His response?

He started doing "Plan A" sort of things! He touched me to console me-- gently patted my knee, rubbed my neck. He began talking to me about our M. He asked what he could do to be a better H, I laughed and shook my head not wanting to talk at the time. He persisted. He asked if he is he providing me with everything I need, does he treat me like a queen...told me that I am a good woman, a good wife. So I asked what I could do to be a better W. He said nothing that I am "working on" everything and he can see that. We visited with my family. He was telling my Grandmom about us; he said, "Some people are just meant to be together." I can't tell you how much all of that meant to me.

He is definitely NOT indifferent. I think he acts in a way where it seems he is "burying his head in the sand" just to protect us...but, obviously, he is taking this seriously. I don't think he is going to have OM around me, I think he is going to keep his eyes on OM as "a friend", and I know he is going to see me through this.

[It's sad that BS are in the position where they have to console WS. It's ridiculous! It should be the other way around.]

I am, actually, quite fortunate that neither H nor anyone else close to us considers this an EA...because when this is over (SOON, hopefully?!), we can move on and just be done with it forever. Well, I could use this as a reminder of how I should NEVER let my guard down.

Fullmoon,

This sounds like the perfect time to introduce MB concepts of meeting ENs and avoiding LBs in your M. Let H know that you want to have a wonderful, passionate love in your M - a love that can thrive in the ups and downs of life.

AM

IMHO, examining OM's motives/character etc. detracts and deflects from focusing on yourself and your responsibility in your wrong doing. That's where your focus should be. On you.

The OM could have been anyone, good or bad he is ordinary and not special in any way. To think so is what someone with an active affair mind-set would think & say. You're the one who made the decision to open the emotional door for "anyone" to step into your marriage. YOU are the responsible party.

Until you see that, you will still be dangerous to your husband and marriage.

Resilient is right. It doesn't matter what the OM does and says and it doesn't matter if your H is oblivious to the threat or not. What matters is what YOU DO to affair proof your marriage. The onus falls on you completely. Therefore, I would explain to your H that the OM is a temptation to you and since you care so much about your marriage that you won't be around him anymore. End of story. Just cut him out of your life and be done with it.

And like Resilient said, the issue is that you opened yourself emotionally to this man. That is risky behavior that I would correct.

fullmoon, Dr Willard Harley is not just some guy on the internet, but a clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders. Here is an article about your EXACT SAME SITUATION that both you and your H should read:

Coping with Infidelity: Part 1 How Do Affairs Begin?

Some excerpts from the article [RJ is the wife and Bob is the H's "friend" to which RJ is attracted]:

"The solution to R.J.'s problem at the time she wrote her letter is to follow the Rule of Honesty. She should write her husband the same letter she wrote me. He should know about the disaster that is about to take place so he can protect both himself and herself from it.

Then, I'm afraid, they must both distance themselves from Bob. Even though this man may not have any feelings for R.J., her feelings for him make him too dangerous to have as a friend, at least until they are able to improve their conversations with each other. If R.J. stops seeing and talking to Bob, the feelings she has for him will subside, but at first she may go through a period of withdrawal where she misses him terribly. Withdrawal usually only lasts a few weeks, with those feelings popping up once in a while after that. If her feelings for Bob eventually disappear, her husband can remain friends with him. But if R.J. finds that they reappear whenever they are together, they should plan to end their friendship with Bob.

This may seem very harsh and unrealistic, but the alternative to ending such a friendship is to create a huge risk of having an affair. And if Bob were to know how she feels about him, then they most certainly should end their friendship with him."

I think I must have read that about a year ago??? It sounds familiar. It is *precisely* the same situation I am going through...with the exception of: I don't know which emotional need of mine is not being met. Perhaps, it is one that is not on the list: a need for H to express emotions at all/challenge? Who knows if I don't know?

H and I actually completed the last page of the EN questionaire (I don't know how I got him to do that! Yeah!)...and we discussed it.

Melody, in the example from Coping with an Affair that you directed me to, Dr. Harley has determined that W is not (yet) having an A. This must be true for me...since no one else believes that I have crossed any lines. BUT I was talking to my sibling about discussing this with OM...and Dr. Harley said that would have been a big mistake. I am glad that I kept talking to people and found my way to these boards FIRST.

And in the illustration, OM and H have the opportunity to preserve their friendship. This is exactly what I want to happen: my M to be fortified, me to move on, me to have NC with OM, and me not to interfere with their friendship.

Since H and I are talking and beginning to discuss MB concepts, I think we will be just fine. THANK YOU ALL IMMENSELY for your direction and support. It has meant so much to me!!!

(I am going to stick around here for awhile just to make sure I keep my H and I on the right track...)

BTW, since I got H to start checking out the ENs, I am going to try to get him to read this story in Part 1, as well. :-)

Why would your husband want to be friends with someone who is trying to get in your pants?

This post from Resilient and Melody about OM beig nothing special it is so true and yet so sad. It shows the power of romantic love.
If you go and dig, all of us humans are not that special after all. So when you think that now is OP's turn to be made special thanks to the focusing of WS on them, it really feels like a punch in the stomach. The WS really goes the extra mile to think that OP is so great and fantastic while s/he only is average. And then once they develop feelings of love for OP, WS is pretty much the ugly duckling and out of the picture.

FM, this is not your case as you caught the madness just in time and it might turn out to be the best thing for your M as you now have the possiblility to make it a great one.
blessing

Except for the fact that she has not been 100% honest with her husband. She has YET to tell him about OM's role in all of this-- only her's. Husband still thinks OM is a good friend.

I have read so many of your stories. It bothers me that I cannot "help" here.

But, in reading your stories, I noticed there is a stage where you snoop and gather proof (to confront WS with). You don't want him/her to have an opportunity to explain the A affair.

The OM in my situation is in a position where he must deny what I am saying. I don't have "proof". They are (practically) best friends, they work together, and *everyone* would be upset with him for even thinking about coming near me (including himself). And my H already told me he thinks its unfair for me to ruin the friendship(s) for something that is not going to happen.

What would happen from H confronting him (if I push the issue)? There would be tension at the workplace, in which case they'd both have to-- angrily and defensively-- explain their sides of the story, rumors about my H's wife flying around like wildfire, embarrassment to my H. There's no need for all of that for something that never got off the ground...and never will.

I'm not going to see him (OM). I'm not going to hear his stories anymore. I'm not going to concern myself with his life. Atena is right, of course, he is not any more special than any one of us. I know that I have intentionally disregarded his faults to focus on the positive things that suit my little fantasy. If this would have gone further, it could have ruined me...my reputation, interfered with my family, my career...yes, I would have been the ugly duckling and out of the picture.

Jmwc95, I'm not trying to ruin him for *wanting* to "get in my pants". In that case, I deserve to be ruined, too. My H has the info. he needs to keep an eye on his friend...and if he is not the sort of friend my H needs, H should decide that for himself.

Sad that a H will take the word of a F instead of that of his W.

Road, Honestly, I don't know whose word he will take. All I know is that he is resisting me telling him anything as much as he possibly can.

Last night, he said the problem is not us talking about it...but that if he is attracted to a woman, it's for a moment, then he thinks of me and the children and that's that. When I become attracted to someone (or I even get an idea in my head), I become fixated on it...it becomes a year-long thing.

Your discussions with your husband are all one-sided. In his mind, it's if one of you are attracted to someone else and what to do with that. He still doesn't know that there was more to it than just YOU being infatuated.

It's like that side of the equation hasn't even occurred to him. Why? Because you haven't been 100% honest with him. You can give all the excuses you want about why you won't go there with your husband and that's your choice, but the result is still a broken and dishonest marriage. He still doesn't know there's an enemy in the camp.

Does he not see the danger in your thinking? How can he make this comment and just put it out there without a thought about it?? How can he say this and not immediately follow it up with "I see the danger in the way you think"?

I have re-read this post a few times and each time I come up with something different. Here are my thoughts.
1.) He is being judgmental towards you and is angry. I read it this way. I can be attracted to another woman but I would never act on it. You can't control yourself.
2.) He is still in shock and is slowly processing everything. Not at the pace you want him to but he may be getting there. I can't understand how you can be thinking of someone else for so long.
3.) He is confused about what he wants to know and what he wants to believe. I know what you are saying but it doesn't make sense to me.

I would ask him what he meant by his statement.

Is there a Plan B for a wayward? My H is making me crazy. I keep talking to him about what's going on with me (...because I can't help myself since something is not "right"). He told me that there is nothing wrong with me, I'm not going to do anything, he would know if I am going to do something, we spend too much time together, "Last week, it was that you're in love with [OM], this week you 'don't have any control'...you're just afraid." He thinks I am "afraid" because I am finally enjoying life after an "emotionally abusive" childhood and I am more comfortable being miserable...so I am just trying to make trouble. And he refuses to accept it.

I feel like running. I feel a little desperate.

Maybe I am not going to "do anything". Does it ever make sense to separate just to...I don't know...I need some air?

He has forbidden me from coming to this website, too, since (he believes) this is only feeding into this stuff I am creating in my head?!?@?

Talk with Jennifer - Steve Harley's sister and Dr. Harley's daughter. She will be the very best resource for you and will calm you very quickly. It will be worth every penny to keep yourself from unraveling a good marriage!

[b][color:#990000]Link to schedule a phone counseling session NOW!![/color][/b]

Road, BTW, Now I do know who my H is going to believe: his friend (since he thinks I don't know what I'm talking about). His friendship hasn't changed at all. Maybe my exposure was a failure; or maybe I need my own Plan B.

I remember thinking that "something was wrong with me" because the way I was feeling, about me wanting another man other then my husband, I even told my husband "I am messed up in the head right now." Since he knew about the EA, he wouldn't respond.

So I know how you feel when you say something is not "right" because I felt it too, you are not going crazy, I know you don't want to have feelings or thoughts about the OM, they just come.

Since I have been home, if I catch myself thinking about the OM (I didn't go into withdrawal because I knew what I wanted, I knew that the OM was not worth it! But still he will still once in a while pop in my head) I would literally scream and yell in my head "STOP IT!! I love my husband!! He is everything I need and MORE!!" then after screaming this I would have a really good memory of my husband, and I would start feeling giddy and excited! The next time I would see my husband after yelling inside my head I would give him a really big hug and lots of kisses, because I would miss him!

Not sure if that helps, but it's something I do, like I said I never went in the withdrawal with the second EA, the first yes, and I do remember how sucky it felt. But the day I came home I was 150% for sure that this is what I wanted, and I was no longer in the fog, or justified what I did to Wheels. The remorse I felt and had, was so great, that I felt disgusted of myself and to the OM, I was angry that I let myself go that way, and I was NOT going to let any bit or ounce of emotion go towards that (OM) any longer! I wasn't going to tolerate it, even in my OWN head. Hence why I yell at my self ROFL

I know this will be hard, the only thing I can say is stay away from the OM, and focus on your marriage, I know this is going to sound silly but I guess on MB it wont be considering I was FWW. When I see an attracted man, that I know me and my husband know, I will ignore him, not to be mean of course, but I do not want to drop my guard down. I will talk to his wife yes, but nothing more, there are a couple people I know that I do this to, and I'm sure wheels has know idea who they are...or maybe he does I don't know. To me...it is not worth being someones friend then ruining my marriage, my marriage is more important then anything!

Forbidden? He tells you what you can and can not do. He also tells you how YOU FEEL. Doesn't that sound controlling to you? If I told my husband how I was feeling about anything he wouldn't tell me how I really feel.

It sounds like he is in denial. I informed my WH the other day that I had been having wayward thoughts, he did not pretend they were not a threat.

Perhaps it is time to be completely open with your H and to tell him that not only are you infatuated with his friend, but the fact that you are physically attracted to him as well.

Then inform your H that you are going to set your own Boundaries. That since he is in denial of your feelings, you no longer want to have any contact with OM. That OM is not allowed anywhere near you. That means not at your house while you are there. If your H can not abide by your wishes, simply leave any place OM is.

If H brings him home, don;t say anything and get into your car and leave. If there is a function and OM is at it, leave. If you keep avoiding being in the same area as OM, your H might wake up and see that you need NC from OM.

I remember the pre affair days.

I could never imagine---------not in a hundred years that infidelity could happen to me. I knew my wife could like someone, but the concept of an affair was completely foreign to me. An affair was the stuff I saw on the news or the movies. I never imagined that my WW could take her clothes off.

OTOH, my wife was always jealous and thinking I could have an affair. I never knew why because I never considered the idea of having an affair.

I think BH is judging wife from his perspective. BH is not an insecure man and probably comes from a background where infidelity is not the norm.

WW needs to yell very loudly about her feelings. This man cannot imagine his wife could be unfaithful.

Innocence is a beautiful thing and once is lost is lost forever. We can only be innocent once.

Your exposure was not a failure. My concern for you is that he seems to be aligning himself with his buddy and not his wife. I am afraid that will create resentment in you, as it should! What H would take the word of his buddy over that of his wife??

Sapphire, There was a post "Confused and in need of help" by Sarashope. I kept thinking you might have an answer for her being on "the other side" of the EA now. I am still in the middle of it...though, my H is making me think I imagined the whole thing. *lol*

Sapphire, I read your story before. Didn't you move out and determine within 6 hours that you wanted to be home? After you came home, did you feel "renewed"? I am coming to believe that I need to do this in order to force myself to...??? I believe my H will resent it...but, if he decides that he wants me after I move out, he might take me seriously???

Sapphire, had you ever figured out what was "not right"???

Stan, Yeah, I definitely don't want to ruin the "innocence". I told my H that I would never leave him (many times in the past). But even with all the freedom he allows, I'm feeling "caged". He's telling me that I don't know what I feel and I'm just making this up. I'm even concerned that he is talking to his friend (OM) about this and they agree that I am just emotional...and it's of no consequence...and they just go on with their day. That bothers me...for more than one reason obviously.

Saumico, he's just expressing his opinion (that he doesn't want me on here)...but he'd never try to enforce it. He's just letting me know so I will "decide" to follow his wishes.

Eluna, my H has told me that he doesn't want to hear about me fantasizing all day about his friend, that last week I was "in love" with his friend...so I'm pretty sure he knows the "physical" aspect of it. You think if I just say it right out, it's going to make all the difference???

It is a delightful experience to be innocent.

You want attention and your grandma once told you that to get attention you must make your boyfriend jealous.

BTW, which is your number one EN?

Write your H an email and tell him how you really feel. Tell H how you and OM have this thing and it makes you sexually excited.

I suspect H may still think you are nuts and may only wake up after you go through with a PA. Don't go there please.

BTW, I am back being innocent.

I agree, but she also needs to tell him about OM's behavior as well. FM, I guess you're ignoring my posts about this since this is the THIRD time I've suggested this and you have yet to address this... with us OR with your husband.

FM:

I agree with PM. You need to tell him everything. Stop protecting OM.

Maybe your H is secure, and doesn't want to have the convo NOW. So write him a letter. Put EVERYTHING in it. And give it to him. Tell him that he does not have to read it now. But you feel that it is important that he HAS the info. And when he is comfortable, he can read it.

Your actions may or may not have be reciprocated by the OM. And in many cases, when we are wayward, the actions of the target of our affections can get way out of proportion, to thier actual meaning. A look, or a saying from OM, may be innocent to him, but have worlds of other meaning to you.

But write the letter.

You looked over the edge andsaw that you could end up in a full blown EZ/PA with this guy if your let yourself. You now KNOW how easy that is to do. This is very powerful knowledge.

Your on the right website to help you to back away from that edge, and construct the fences to avoid falling off that edge.

Your H, however, isn't interested it seems, in this MB Stuff. And that is cool. There will be a time and place when it will be important to him. But you can do wonders by implementing more MB Style practices in your life. And that is all that you can control.

If he gets on board, than you can have a terriffic marriage going forward. You can still have a strong marriage going forward even if he does NOT buy in. Sounds like he is a good guy. And that is the important part.

You work on yourself, Thats all we can do. And then see what happens.

LG

Meggy, I am not ignoring your posts. My H thinks that there is nothing going on and I am making this up in my head...and I keep analyzing OM's behaviors and trying to see how they might be "innocent" or "harmless". What if I was reading things that weren't there, wouldn't I be foolish? I create this big fuss and "incriminate" this man for something I did??? I'm very concerned about that...

My H seems to think he is this perfect friend who was only trying to be my friend. Shouldn't my H be able to pick up on *something* if this man was trying to do anything more?

Your husband is right about one thing, you are overanalyzing this to death.

He's told you how he feels. In fact, it isn't up to him (or this board) to make you stop obsessing about this guy.

JUST STOP DOING IT!.

Hold yourself to NC, avoid being around him at any occasion, and by no means should you call or accept calls or email from the OM.

If you find yourself thinking about him, picture your husband and kids in your mind and think happy thoughts.

You've learned a little about MB principles, why don't you start living them every day?

I applaud you for recognizing how vulnerable you are, but you have to take responsibility for your own thoughts and actions at some point. I love a good bourbon whiskey, but tend to over indulge with the hard stuff, so I don't keep it in my house.

Fullmoon, I've pulled quotes from your thread of all the things you've said about OM. Maybe you can see where it is VERY confusing about what's really going on:




















See how you go back and forth about OM's innocence? This is very confusing.

Meggy (and everyone), I am sorry. I did not intend to confuse you. If I had just told H the specifics (in the first place), H would have been able to decide whether or not I was creating this. I don't know why I just didn't write the letter/tell him details.

Schtoop, I was not blaming anyone for my thoughts and actions (not H...and not OM). I do take responsibility for them. But you are right I am overanalyzing this, I am tired of all of it...

And I was here to find out what people thought of separation? ...not to be with OM (there has been NC with OM)...just to figure everything out.

But I am sorry.

I will revisit this site after I have (1) told him the details and/or (2) recovered. Thank you for your time and efforts...I know I seem resistant at times but it has not fallen on deaf ears.

Now's not the time to leave FM... just when you're getting somewhere. Write the letter to your H once and for all. What he does with it is on him. What you do to protect your marriage from here on out is on you, such as (1) EP, (2) no contact with OM WHATSOEVER, (3) remaining O&H with your H about everything!, (4) work on your side of the street as far as meeting your H's needs, etc. You get the picture.

Come back and tell us how it goes after you've come 100% clean with your H. Maybe after you do, he'll see where WE are coming from and we're not (and more importantly, you're not) just making a big deal out of nothing.

K? We really do want to help you with this.

Yes I did.....and it was ME! I was sabotaging my own life, because of all of the lies I was telling my self, all the justifications, all the secrets. You start becoming someone different, and not in a loving way but in a BAD way. When the fog lifted, and reality hit, I knew exactly what I needed to fix, and to get back to ME! And that was to get my OLD self back, me being a loving and caring wife and mother. Not this person who snuck around, lied to everyone she cared about, and was angry/unhappy all the time.

\
[/quote]
Fullmoon, can you explain what the above here? Do you not agree with the NC concept?

I don't understand why you are trying to help other waywards if you don't agree with the most fundamental concept for MB's program for surviving an affair...

SusieQ,

I absolutely agree with NC. I, honestly, have not communicated with OM in ANY way in over a month now.

(OM is still my H friend...even though my H knows he is the OM. Since I think this is an EA and my H does not, he doesn't want anything to change. He just wants me to "get over" and "not act on" my feelings for OM. That's all that I am required to do.)

So, naturally, we all have mutual friends...and we're all invited to the wedding...

Do not go to that wedding. You are not the bride or the groom or (I assume) the preacher. So they will still be married without you. Do not go. There is no reason to go.

It doesn't matter if you say hi or not. He will be there; you will be there. Trust me when I say that at this point it will set you back emotionally to square one, maybe farther. For some God-unknown reason, the OM in my case came back to our school to "visit" a month or so after D-Day. I didn't say a word to him. I saw him and walked the other way, stupidly sucking into a classroom and then having to make up some reason I was there. My knees and hands shook the rest of the day. I felt sick. I emailed DH and told him, and HE felt sick the rest of the day. The memories switched on full force. You do not need to see this man. It's like banging a broken bone with a hammer.

Then answer me this: WHAT DOES NC MEAN TO YOU?

No contact until you are invited to a party? Are you kidding me?

You realize Dr Harley recommends even moving to a different state if necessary to never see or talk to the OP again FOR LIFE?

And, naturally, since you decided to have an A, you need to cut all those mutual friends out of your life if it compromises NC. period.

I still think she needs to bring her H here or at least let him read this whole thread. I don't think he even knows about OM's behavior.

The above is from your first post here.

If you want to stop being infatuated with OM then you need to make a decision on whether you are going to commit to NC FOR LIFE. There is no in between.

OMG!!!

ML, the cows are ridiculous, hahahahaha <-- That's what you get for those cows...bulls...

Holy cow, Batman!

That was very mooving.

I would say something else, but it would be a moot point.

Yeah, my sense of humor is udderly ridiculous.

.

.

.

eat more chikin

Thank you, Mel and Luri, for the comedic interlude.

And now:


Hiya, fullmoon! I bet you're glad to see me!

Vanilla, you know I love you. We'll be best friends by the time this is all over with. Just don't call me a pig.

All right, you won yourself a:

Ok. We'll try again:

Do you believe NC FOR LIFE is necessarry for saving your M?

And my .02 cents:

I still think you need to bring your H here or at least let him read this whole thread. Have you told him about ALL of OM's behavior?

Susie...

I was trying to take it a day at a time here. And I thought I was doing quite well.

FM,

Did you see the answer I posted to you on my Managing Memories thread?

What do you think of the Love Bank concept?

Do you buy into it?

Do you understand the basis for it?

Mark

Meggy,
When I first suggested to my H that he read some of this stuff, he declined. (...that was back around D-Day.) I have noticed in the past two days that I have been busy on this site he has been running over to the laptop to see what I'm doing. Of course, I was not on this thread at the time. I was on RM's thread.

As for OM's behavior, I thought you all told me to stop worrying about OM, that I was overanalyzing, and being confusing. Uuugh!

I don't like this thread. I want to go back to RM or SW.

I will refrain.

Well, it would be helpful to the people who are reading your thread & posts to know whether you believe in the MB concepts. It's not all about you. Good luck.

Mark, I had not seen the other response. I will check now. Is there some way to get notification if someone responds to you on a particular thread? Just wondering.

Susie, Yes, I believe in the NC...but I didn't really pound the "for life" part into my head. I was just thinking about one day at a time. I didn't want to make the task seem "daunting" so that I would fail right out the gate. It's like someone starting a new diet...and on day one deciding they'll have no carbs, no fat, no sugar, no soda...just 8 8 oz. glasses of water, a little meat, salad, and veges. By the end of that week, that diet is going to be "on the rocks". Isn't it appropriate to make the thing manageable?

Why am I not surprised that you don't wish to be held accountable for your choices?

You going to that wedding where a man that you pine for and lust after will be present is HIGHLY DISRESPECTFUL to OBVIOUSLY your husband, but also to the bride and groom - Going to a wedding means that you are promising to support that marriage - it says that you are a supporter of all marriages really...Going to this wedding puts your own marriage at GREAT RISK!!! This is insane! If you go it will spitting in the face of your husband and in the faces of that bride and groom...

You are not taking this seriously, fullmoon...

Mrs. W

Are you for real?????? Fullmoon, C'MON!!!! This is your marriage we are talking about...You need to get serious NOW...

Mrs. W

Like I said earlier, this is someone who is not serious in the least.

I hear ya, Mel - I can't help reading some of the posts around here today in "Valley Girl Speak"...Just seems fitting...

Mrs. W

..............waste of time.

WOW!!! Seriously??? This isn't something you play around with you are either committed to repairing your M or your not. Manageable??? Do you see how cruel and hurtful that is? What you only betrayed your BH a little bit today so that makes it OK??? There is no gray area here FM, you either go all in or you are wasting your time and all the posters trying to help you too. Get serious before it's too late........



Want2Stay

[TJ]
Glad to see ya Mrs. W!!!!! It's foggy as heck around here lately.

Want2Stay
[/TJ]

You all are making me dizzy. You push too fast. I am serious! Aren't any of you listening to the fact that I have not seen this guy or talked to him or ANYTHING in over a month...and I intended to keep it this way? But what do you tell your friends about skipping their wedding...'cause you think some guy there is attractive who is not your H? Now, they're going to think poorly of us, too.

Okay, what do I have to say for you to understand that I am serious? I am here taking all of this...aaaargh...trying to help other people with moral support (which you've clearly demonstrated is unacceptable and counterproductive)...and I am still here...although my H would simply ignore this whole thing and let me go on free as a bird with no consequences. But I am still here putting myself through this...for you to tell me I'm "not serious"?!?@ What the he77?!

Calm down, fullmoon.

It's good that you're reading other threads. Mark's got some great ones, so you're off to a good start. I would also recommend reading any number of the BS threads. I hope it will help you appreciate the place from which they are coming.

Understand that every one of us here - every single, solitary one - would go back and change things if we could. We are trying to help you avoid a worse fate than your EA.

Are you also reading up on the MB concepts?

I think you mentioned something about your BH's SIL being wayward? And how he seemed a bit more concerned after that? That is a GREAT thing! The problem with his dismissal of your EA is it shows he may have weak boundaries, or he may not appreciate the importance of EPs in warding off an A. Do you want to find yourself cheated on down the road?

I know we may not be telling you what you want to hear...but we ARE telling you what works. You may think some things seem ridiculous, and you may be tempted to set the bar low and justify your actions...but it is a slippery slope indeed into a full-blown A, as you have started to find out.

The great thing about MB is that it gives you tools to prevent and/or otherwise address that slippery slope - either before or after it happens. You can build a great M, you can A-proof it, you and your BH can be the greatest source of happiness for each other...but you've got to commit.

Commit to basic principles, and as you pull away from the adulterous thoughts of your A, you will see more and more clearly how this all comes together, and how necessary and rewarding it can be.

No waffling. NC = NC, e.g. NC = no fantasizing, no mementos, no Facebook, no wedding, no whatever. It sounds harsh to you now, but cold turkey is the only way to do it.

Who cares what they think!!! NC means NO CONTACT. None nada zilch zip ZERO!!! It means that protecting your M comes before EVERYTHING else. Make an excuse do whatever you have to do, but going is a big mistake and resets the withdrawal clock back to the beginning.

Want2Stay

I'm just catching the tail end of this. I'm a BH who recently remarried a wonderful woman. So I can speak about the wedding aspect of things:

Don't go to this wedding. You don't have to give a reason. Simply state you can't make it.

Going and being around OM is a massive slap in the face to your H. If he knows about your EA, then you're creating a situation that is explosive and horribly painful for him.

Stop thinking of YOU for a second and think of your H first and foremost.

Yes, no contact for life is what's called for when you're talking about a man you're attracted to who isn't your H and that you've already crossed the line with.

You committed to your H. Fix your marriage and think of your H and not you.

We can't "understand" something that is not true. You are not serious. Someone who is serious would be making DAMN SURE she is not in contact with her OM. Saying you are "serious" while you make plans to see your OM next month is bullcrap.

You might be kidding yourself, but you are not fooling anyone here. You are just wasting valuable board time that could be devoted to other posters who ARE serious.

...........waste of time...

I seriously can't believe your BH has to put up with this childish rubbish from you.

If you cared at all, and were even 1 teeny weeny bit serious about realising what you have put him through, you would NEVER i repeat NEVER NEVER NEVER put him through that.

You just really wanna see the OM don't you???

Yuck....you're so fogged out I can't even see the board!

Fullmoon, I'm not telling you you're not serious. I'm just telling you that it's so easy for people not to fully grasp how important it is to put up a permanent, iron wall between themselves and any opportunities for social engagement with an Other Person.

Being serious is not enough. It is equally important to be aware of the danger. The crew of the Titanic was comprised of serious men. They weren't asleep on watch the night they hit the iceberg. They hadn't taken their hands off the wheel. They thought they had things under control. But they weren't aware of the iceberg until it was too late to stop or steer clear.

I thought I had things under control when I was "only" in an emotional affair. I was an adult... surely I could quit anytime I wanted. Once I decided that I was uncomfortable with where I could see the relationship heading, I told OW it had to end. Patted myself on the back. Thought what a fine, upstanding, good husband I was. Took my wife off for a romantic weekend at a B&B for her birthday. Everything was gonna be fine.

Except that I continued to have occasion for social contact with OW. I thought I could handle it. I thought we could be polite, civil. Friends. I thought I could keep things on the straight-&-narrow. I thought she'd honor my expressed wishes that things stay proper between us. Most significantly, I thought I could get over her despite the ongoing contact.

And less than a month after that wonderful getaway weekend with my wife, I found myself paying cash for a hotel room... so that it wouldn't show up on the credit card statement...

Today, I have the best wife in the world, and I would boast to say that I think we have one of the best marriages in the world right now, but despite that, if I could, I would still go back in a heartbeat to the time when I could get & be grateful for the chance to have a bunch of people smack me upside & downside the head with the sort of warnings you're getting here in abundance. I could've still gotten to the marriage I have today, without the horrible pain my full-blown affair eventually caused to everyone who was impacted.

18 months post-affair, despite all the ways I've been blessed & despite all the ways God has shielded me from the worst consequences of my own rotten misconduct, I still spend way too much of my life wishing I could get a do-over that I know will never come.

These warnings are a gift that you have been given.

Just because your H doesn't see the danger, and just because you don't appreciate the danger, doesn't mean it's not there.

Look, it's your life. You can overestimate your willpower & emotional strength, at your & your husband's extreme peril. Or you can roll the dice if you like. After all, you're a strong person. Your intentions are good, after all. You're probably stronger & better than I was, right? You're a serious, thoughtful, in-control person, right?

Be careful if you think you stand. You just might be sinking.

Send a gift and a card to your friends, they will be fine with the idea that you were not feeling well that day.

It really is that simple.

Stop being such a drama queen, OK!

Fullmoon, it is NOT that we don't hear you, we do. We just also know one major thing WAYWARDS LIE. And I am sorry to tell you this sweetie, but you are still a WAYWARD. You do not get the label FWW until you have done a lot of things RIGHT. The first of which is going completely NC with your OM.

Now, look at what you are saying to us, true believers in MB. You are arguing with us that DrH is WRONG. That it is OKAY for you to go off to the wedding because your BH really doesn't seem to think anything of your EA. Hunny, what I am thinking is exactly what was said to you. THIS should scare the CRAP outta you. Either your BH doesn't think too highly about marriage, he has had some affair(s) himself, or he just doesn't WANT to look at this to closely.

What MB is is a CLEAR and CONCISE guide to how to have a spectacular marriage that is fulfilling to BOTH parties when followed. You should learn about MB to benefit YOU and YOUR marriage. You need to clear up your side of the fence.

Do you feel badly about what you did? Do YOU believe that you have an EA? Then listen to the people on this board and on this thread and follow what they are telling you to do.

The worst thing to happen would be that you don't listen, vets stop posting to you(because they will only help people who are willing to help themselves), and then one day, either your BH tell you that he could never get over your EA, and you divorce, or you come on here as a newly BS.

Please, listen to what they are saying and take a leap of faith. Nothing they are telling you to do is to hurt you or harm you. They are telling you the things that have been shown to HELP people recover from an affair. Are you willing to take that leap of faith?

Don't go to that wedding. MAKE sure you NEVER have contact with OM again. Let your BH know that you will NEVER see OM again because you CAN NOT. It is the best thing for your marriage and your marriage means more to you than any friendship.

Years ago, a couple of my H's so-called friends propositioned me. I was never attracted to either of them, and I was offended by their assumption that I would take them up on their offers.

One of them actually came to my house one night, purportedly looking for my H (and I later found out that he already KNEW my H was at his hunting camp that night). He wanted me to invite him in...asked me for a glass of water. I took him a glass of water out to the front porch, and told him in no uncertain terms that I did not invite men into our home when my H was not there.

I told my H. He, like your husband, didn't think it was a big deal...because, after all, he trusted ME! And, he kept right on being friendly with these guys.

Well, you know what? My H's attitude deeply hurt me...made me feel like he didn't care.

Now, of course, I'm very sure that my H was already cheating on me! So...I'm thinking that these guys likely knew that my H was cheating...and thought I would be vulnerable to them.

Fulmoon, you said that you got to talking to OM when you and your H had been "bickering". I submit to you that the OM saw your bickering as you being vulnerable to his advances.

Do NOT go to the wedding! Yes, it would be disrespectful to your H, but the biggest danger is that YOU will be set back to square one in how you feel about the OM.

Your H should NOT be going to lunch with female co-workers, either!

I see that one concern of your is what to tell your friends why you didn't go to the wedding. Do what Sapph would do tell them the truth. Tell your friends "I was falling in love with someone who is not my husband, and he also attended the wedding. I thought it would be a bad idea to go, and it would be disrespectful to my husband if I had any type of contact with him. Even eye contact."

Sapph is often confronted about why she no longer has a FB account, and she straight up tells the truth, "I had an affair, FB was one way we contacted each other and I don't want to repeat it."

FM,
A couple of pages back I asked you:Same post as my pointing you to my reply on the memories thread...

Any ideas for answers on these?

Mark

This is admirable, but TMI for the couple that is marrying. A simple, "I'm sorry we can't make it. I would love to be there and wish you the best!" would do.

As a man who recently went through a wedding, I can tell you that would be enough. My day wasn't about who was attending, but about the woman I was marrying.

The approach you recommend is a bit much.

hi fullmoon,
I wouldn't go to the wedding, why do that to your husband, I'm a BS and I know how I would feel if my husband wanted to go anywhere the OW was.....I would be filled with doubt and pain the whole time....if the wedding couple asks tell them the truth that attending the wedding and having the OM there would hurt your husband and that you were chosing not to do this.....they are entering a new marriage they will understand and respect that decision......
NO CONTACT with the OM means exactly that, it doesn't mean just in your head, you have to actually put it into place and make sure you avoid him at all costs it has to be a thought out effort on your part......
I think everyone is your affair fog believes the same thing.....keep reading this site and learning about you and your thinking........you don't believe it, we all see it and you will to as the fog lifts and you see the affair for what it really is.......WRONG for your marriage.....you have hurt your husband, why continue, if you dont' really care about him then you need to leave him and stop hurting him with your selfishness...........
maybe if you are not sure about giving up contact with the other man then you should separate and think things through, your husband should have the option as well whether he can live with a woman who still seems to have some need to share time and space with her OM.......how much more do you expect him to endure...........

I agree with htld. Unless you are immediate family, or in the wedding party - they're not going to care if you are there or not. The only excuse you need to give is "for family reasons" or for "personal reasons" and that's it.

People understand that. Sometimes you just can't make it.

Now, it may be that your husband wants to go to this wedding and wants you to 'get over it' and just 'not do anything wrong'. Tell him that not going to the wedding is the only way you can keep from doing anything wrong and is the only way you know to get over it.

DH and I discussed this last night (given all of your posts yesterday) and Vibrissa hit it on the nose. This is precisely how my DH feels.

Jess, my DH is not hurt at all. It is bothering him that I am on this website (making a big deal out of nothing). The EA is inconsequential. To him.

There is SO much here for me to respond to and I will. I have to finish up something I am working on first...

Could that be because you haven't told him the whole story... about OM's behavior towards you? If he knew that not only were YOU attracted to OM but also about OM's behavior towards you when H wasn't around, he may think twice about this whole deal, but so far you've deflected every question about that.

The fact that you are willing to go to this wedding knowing that OM will be there says alot about you and your commitment to protecting your marriage.

Deflect away.

FM, I just read your whole thread. There�s definitely a Mars/Venus thing at play here. Your H is having a problem I had. I saw what I wanted to see versus the reality.

What you need to do, and do it soon, is tell your H very bluntly: �Our marriage is in danger. I�ve told you this and you�ve dismissed it as my imagination. IT�S NOT! I�m trying to tell you that I am attracted to your bf. I�m trying to tell you that if given the chance I was on a road where I would have cheated on you. The right response is to take this seriously and STOP DISMISSING IT! Don�t tell me it�s just in my head. Don�t tell me it�s something that just happens. Don�t sweep it under the rug. We have a serious problem and the answer isn�t, �stop talking to people on the internet�. The problem was there before I talked to people on the internet. �

There is a hole in your relationship with your husband. One of the very things that attracts you the most to him is one of the very things that is a hole in your life and that is a big threat to your marriage. Your H believes that if he explains things logically, then you will see things as he does and that there is nothing further to discuss.

OM obviously filled a need you have that H isn�t meeting. Your H is emotionless, OM on the other hand, is a passionate man. Your H strikes me as a man with little passionate emotions. He does the things he needs to do and doesn�t get too worked up about things. Great qualities in some ways, but a massive danger in terms of getting worked up when he SHOULD be worked up.

I never imagined that my WXW would ever cheat on me. And then she did. We�re all human and we are all susceptible to temptation. Your H may not think it is a big deal since you didn�t act on the EA you had. Men have a much easier time forgiving an EA than women do. The physical betrayal is often more hurtful to a man than the emotional one. Women tend to react opposite. Both are painful to a BS, it�s just the emphasis that is different between the sexes.

The feelings you have and have had for the OM are massively dangerous and are a seed planted in your psyche which could lead to the destruction of your marriage. They shouldn�t be dismissed by your H very easily.

Seriously, we want you guys to succeed and save your marriage and you were very courageous to come here and admit the feelings you were having. Now take the advice we give you as people who have walked down the path either as the one who betrayed or the one who was betrayed or who did both!

Your H�s problem is very much a man thing. We see what we want to see. Women often feel they�re communicating their feelings very clearly to us through hints, actions, little stuff. We men, on the other hand, basically think that if you�re not complaining, then there aren�t any real problems.

This is why we get caught so off guard when our wives cheat. Many of us become complacent and think nothing is wrong when the woman is thinking, �Why can�t he SEE how I feel?�

Well, he can�t see it because you�re dancing around the issue instead of getting right to it. �I�ve had thoughts about F�ing your best friend. He has flirted with me! This isn�t something to take lightly or dismiss!�

Your husband�s biggest problem is denial.

Honestly, I commend you for doing what you need to to communicate with him before acting on your feelings but his absence of reaction and emotions will actually hurt you in the long run and will lead to the thought on your end, �He just doesn�t care enough about me to get worked up.�

There�s a big part of your that is hungering for him to show emotions and a passion for you that he simply isn�t doing right now. Well, he needs to wake up.

I think you should tell your husband point blank

"The other man hits on me and I like it. I have fantasized about him and have developed feelings for him. You want me to get over it and just not do anything. There is no way for me to do that if I still see him, talk to him, or if I know YOU see and talk to him. Because it will keep him in my mind. If he stays in my mind, somewhere down the road I WILL sleep with him because I'm not that strong. You may think I am but I'm not strong enough to avoid someone actively pursuing me who I find attractive and have bonded with emotionally. The only way I can be strong enough to avoid that is to have No Contact with him for the rest of my life.

OM has also been culpable here in that he flirted and perused me. I cannot stand that pressure and it is unfair of you to put me again and again in the reach of a predator. This man has made advances towards me and I don't want to act on them. I would appreciate it if you protected me from this situation by avoiding OM as well."

PERFECTO!!!!

FM,

Have you told your husband that you have fallen in love with OM? That is what this is really all about. It isn't just that you are "attracted" to him or that you find him "cute" or "a hunk" or any of that sort of thing. You have fallen in love with the guy.

If your husband doesn't see that as a problem, I see only a couple of possibilities. Either you haven't told him that, just that way, or he doesn't really think love is a viable goal for a marriage and only logical decisions can effect his life with you.

Falling in love is really a form of insanity when it comes right down to it. People do all sorts of crazy things in the name of being in love. The news almost every day has at least one story about a husband or wife who has murdered a spouse, or someone else's spouse or in some cases their own children in the name of being in love.

An EA is every bit as dangerous to a marriage as a PA in many cases. In some instances it can actually be worse. What happens is that a comparison begins to take place wherein the WS starts to actively and consciously compare the BS to the affair partner. While at the time this seems to be a logical and data processing sort of thing, it really is not.

Our brain processes data and logic primarily on the left side. It is an area that can sort information, apply past lessons very rapidly, make adjustments to our own actions and interactions with others and can modify those actions in response to whatever information our senses are giving us.

Our emotions are from the other side of our brain and really don't process information and data as much as simply respond to stimulus as it is provided. We FEEL based on what is taking place rather than examining what is taking place.

Now if a stimulus is provided to us repeatedly, and that stimulus provides us with an emotional response and whenever we have that emotional response a particular person is also present at the same time, before long, the person becomes sufficient stimulus to cause the emotional response. The response becomes what is called a directed response and the person becomes what is known as a directed stimulus. The mere presence of the person is sufficient to cause the emotional response.

Now if the person, now a directed stimulus is causing a good emotional response, when it becomes a directed response, their simple presence causes us to have that good emotional response. This is some of the science behind the Love Bank model. When that person has reached the point of being a directed stimulus so that they alone trigger a good emotional response in the pleasure center of our brain, we say we have fallen in love with that person.

What is really taking place is a bunch of chemicals including serotonin (the chemical that makes us have a sense of well being), dopamine (the feel good chemical), and the precursor to dopamine called PEA flood the receptors in our brain and give us a feeling that can even be hard to describe. It is often marked by elevated blood pressure and heart rate, feelings of euphoria and a bunch of other stuff we add together to define what we call being in love.

But those same chemicals, working in the same part of the brain are what causes addictions to things like alcohol and crack. Falling in love isn't just LIKE an addiction, it IS an addiction in the purest sense of the word.

An affair is really just a fantasy of sorts. An affair partner doesn't have to supply anything beyond the stimulus to feel good. He or she doesn't have to provide for paying of bills, raising children, maintaining a house, doing laundry, cooking meals...nothing except making each other feel good.

In addition, when we first fall in love with someone, we are only with that person when they are providing that stimulus. They aren't there at all when we have a negative emotional response to something, least of all to something they might or might not have done. So all they do is feed pure feelings and emotions and be around when we are feeling our best.

And here is where the problem takes place when an affair is beginning to do its work in the emotional state of a WS. This comparison starts to happen wherein the BS is compared to the AP. But since the logic part of the brain is not engaged in the feeling associated with the affair partner, what is being compared is the real world relationship with the BS versus the fantasy life that is really only the good feeling being generated by the AP when we are together.

Now on the surface, we see the comparison as one based on sound logic. We put together this list of Pros and Cons similar to the old method you might have been taught in school. You list the Pros or things for something in one column and the Cons or things against on the other side. Once thoughts are exhausted, we compare the columns and whichever is longer is the "right" decision or choice.

But when this AP BS comparison takes place we aren't comparing the benefits and negatives of being faithful and fixing the marriage or the benefits of having an affair (which are entirely selfish things related to our emotions)and the negative consequences of having the affair. Rather what we compare is the negative data of the real relationship with the BS versus the emotional high derived from the stimulus of the AP.

So we are comparing a feeling with day to day life, an emotional response with reality. The logic and data processing part of our brain can identify all the negative things about the BS while the emotional side of our brain can only imagine the feelings the AP causes us to feel.

Seldom do women leave their husbands because they are "attracted to" another man. They don't abandon their children and end a marriage because a guy is a hunk or because he is good at flirting or better at kissing than their husbands. They do however leave their husbands because they have fallen in love with someone else. It happens so often that this very forum exists to help those caught in such a situation whether the betrayed or the betrayer. Almost never does a woman leave her husband for great sex, so it is almost never about sex for most women. It is however about having other ENs met by a guy who makes them fall in love by meeting those ENs and causing her to feel things she thought were long dead.

The PROBLEM with falling in love with someone to whom you are not married when you are married to someone else is that unless something is done to reverse the trend, eventually the process will play out in ways that from the beginning can not even be imagined by those involved.

Once we are married, it is our responsibility to prevent ourselves from falling in love with anyone else. It can only happen if we don't actually do anything to prevent it and once it happens, the logical parts of our brain are subservient to our emotions. We end up following our heart rather than leading it and the result for marriage is always destruction and hurt beyond what you can even begin to explain to someone who has not experienced it first hand. Affairs don't happen because we meet someone special. They happen because we don't prevent ourselves form having them and we don't prevent ourselves from having them because we are making choices with the part of the brain that can't process data and logic and only feels emotions. WE WANT to feel good, so we let someone make us feel good until feeling good is all that matters to us.

The choices that protect a marriage, those that prevent infidelity, need to be made on purpose and by design, based in the left side of our brains where right and wrong, logic and reality are processed rather than in the right side where all we can do is feel what is being provided by whatever stimulus we are experiencing at the moment.


If you want to save your marriage, abandon the notion that you can only get a little high from the addiction of loving another man and still make rational, logical and data based decisions and choices. Tell your husband that you have fallen in love with his best friend and you want to renew your relationship so that you can be in love with each other all over again.

If that is your intent in being here, then MB can help but only if you accept the idea that falling in love is something that can be done on purpose and that you have the ability to choose who you are going to allow to do the things that bring that about.

Love might be a form of insanity, but you and your husband can be insanely in love with each other if you learn what it takes for that to happen and begin doing the things that can bring that to fruition.

Mark

Thank you for your concern and persistence.

DH�s belief that this is �no big deal� is [probably] allowing me some freedom to minimize it (infatuation/EA). When I thought of going to the wedding, there was no question that I must go. It�s our friend�s wedding. It�s just taboo to decline a wedding invitation. But the fact that you ALL were appalled that I even considered going�I was surprised. It�s not like I�m going to have a chance for SF with OM at the wedding. With DH there. Given my exposure. And everyone else there. So there would be a barrier between us. That�s how I was thinking of it.

There may, however, be a chance for eye contact and flirtation�which got all of this stuff started in the first place. I hoped I�d just say �hi� to OM but otherwise keep my mouth shut. I asked DH last night what he thought of his friend flirting with me. Meggy is very insistent that I reveal OM�s side of this. I started out with how he feels about flirting�and his exasperated face promptly appeared.

He said that he �doesn�t think like that� and he doesn�t want to hear this. In any case, due to your reactions, I see NC differently. With �serious� NC, if OM was on his deathbed, I couldn�t even tell him goodbye�because I would have committed to NC FOR LIFE�and there is no exception, no matter how small. Wow. Well�now I see why you�re shocked that I would go to the wedding. It doesn�t matter if there is a barrier between us or not. No means No. Period. Okay.

So I told DH that we shouldn�t go to the wedding for the NC. He said that his friends would be mad at him for life and we�re going.

Meggy, I told him that he should read my posts 3 times in our conversation last night and he declined. He is simply not going to aggravate himself. As long as I am not sleeping around, there is no problem.

DH explained that like there are different types of Christianity, there are different types of M. Perhaps, your Ms need MB principles to survive; ours does not. We have trust that does not require spying or NC. The bottomline is that when it comes right down to it neither of us will cheat (PA).

As you know, I am not a fan of the �harsh� words. *lol* It�s practically impossible for me to say, �DH, that�s where you�re wrong because I am not all that sure that I could resist f* him if he decides to take it to that level�� DH knows of my �fantasies� but does not want to hear details. [FYI: I have been doing fairly well not seeing OM over the last month since I have been exerting all of my emotional energy dealing with you guys *LOL*]

It feels like I am going to ruin my M (trying to tell him stuff he doesn�t want to hear) in order to save my M. That would defeat the whole purpose. How would MB be successful for me if I push DH away? I am not meeting his �peace of mind� EN as I continue to pursue this against his will.

Oh, as for the wedding, I am planning not to go (unless OM will not be there)...though I have no clue how that's going to work out.

I don't exactly need DH going to the wedding by himself, upset with me, with those single coworkers he eats lunch with regularly.

And Gloveoil, I will reread your post several times. You speak of how you were the well-intentioned H, sure that you wouldn't falter, but you didn't control yourself afterall. That could be me-- yes. And I don't want to have to look back to change this...when I can look forward and stop it NOW.

NO EXCEPTIONS.
No exceptions.

Thank you, Gloveoil.

FM, it is up to you to manage your own boundaries, so you can't use your H as an excuse to go to the wedding. It is much worse for your marriage to go than it is not to go. So, you can't blame your H if you do go. You are a big gurl, and as such, are responsible for your choices.


All marriages are susceptible to adultery, as you have discovered. You have already cheated, so it you know it makes no sense to say that neither of you will cheat.

The buck stops with you, FM. Whether your H agrees to your boundaries or not, you are accountable for them, not him. Just becuase he is ignorant to the threat does not absolve you of your responsibility.

This has nothing to do with your husband's "beliefs" but with the truth.

Mark, I haven't read your post yet...just the first paragraph but I think I am going to have to say:

"I am in love with him."

...nothing about f* or fastasies or infatuation or attraction...
But

"I am in love with him."

That is really confusing. I can't be in love with both of them.
Okay, guys, don't jump on me yet. Let me think about this.
I'm not analyzing it...just how am I going to get that out of my mouth to DH who I love? DH might leave me.

Bravo!!

Good luck. I'm out.

Radical honesty is the only way to create intimacy in a marriage. Dishonesty and unspoken issues create a loss of love and foster superficiality in marriage. There is no such thing as an EN of "peace of mind." [what you really mean is a state of delusion about the state of his marriage]

If your H does not know the truth about his own life, he can't very well fix the problem.

This is information he HAS to have. To not give him the truth is cruel and leaves him in ignorance about the true state of his marriage and the true nature of your feelings for the OM.

And yes, he might leave. That is his right. No one else has a right to make that decision for him.

what u posted is very beautiful Melody, but unfortunately very few people practive this radical honesty...that is why relationship are in so much trouble in this day and age, and there are so many devices that foster secrecy and the right to privacy....
blessing

Why is that? Where did you come up with the idea that you can only be in love with one person? It happens every single day of every single week. We have seen exactly THAT scenario played out so many times it can be predicted to happen again before the day is over around here...

Suggestion for you, FM, before you make yourself (and the rest of us) nuts in the process. Read His Needs Her Needs. Then we'll talk.

Read the Basic Concepts again (assuming that you have actually read them in order from beginning to end) and try to understand the Love Bank concept and how it works. THAT is where the disconnect is taking place here. You don't buy the Love Bank model and think "love" is magic or some such...

Thats why they need Marriage Builders!

so true!

I now fully believe that my first exposure was a failure. Evidently, I was honest but not RADICALLY honest. That's the problem. Had I said on 6/30 to DH that "I am in love with OM", I could have saved us the last 100 threads. For that, I am incredibly embarrassed.

I am going to tell DH that I am in love with him...and I'll throw in that I want to [censored] him (just to leave no room for confusion or calm).

Gloveoil, Thank you even if I am making you pull out your hair... Mark (I had not responded about the LB but it makes sense), Vanilla (thank you for your earlier post that I had not had an opportunity to go back and respond to yet), Sapphire (always helpful), Melody (I know you think I am a waste most of the time and I think you're trying to provoke me but I'll bite my tongue), Meggy (*@*!%@!), Vibrissa (your suggestion on what to say was good but I guess I am just going to be a harsh a**hole with DH and get it over with)...I've had you all busy as he77 this week. I TOLD YOU THAT I DIDN'T WANT TO COME TO THIS THREAD. I blame you. (<-- That was a joke...calm down.)

PLEASE NO ONE RESPOND TO THIS. I JUST WANTED TO THANK YOU even though some of you are aggravating me...but I know my first exposure was a failure, a false start, and every subsequent talk with DH because the honesty was not RADICAL. I have to start over after sucking up all of your time. I'M SO SORRY.

On another note, I have enjoyed posting to your MB threads (even though I am driving you crazy and vice versa), you have been instantly responsive and helpful/harsh, expecting me to move mountains and cure "addiction" in a matter of minutes *lol* but thank you (for not taking any crap)...I'm sure one day I'll be a defogged vet, look back at this, and cringe.

Have a wonderful weekend!

Wow, Mark! You�re like an angel. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I am going to tell him what I said. I am going to be not honest�but radically honest. I am grateful for you wasting all the time it took to write that to me�I won�t let it actually go to waste. I�ve heard you and I thank you. I�m sorry I�m so difficult, got myself in this position (addiction)�and am fighting you all, fighting myself. I can�t wait to get over it. I appreciate you, Mark!

You know what? You all will probably actually like me when I am no longer addicted. *lol* I�m not such a bad lady.

We (my wife and I - a a few of our friends from church) will be praying for you, FM.

I really do hope you guys both "get it" and "get it together."

Mark

All right, missy. Who are you, and what have you done with fullmoon?

Just kidding!

Here's to hoping the fog is truly clearing and things go well (as well as possible? as well as can be expected? well in the looooong term after your new exposure talk?).

Well, he cursed me out seven ways from Sunday for bringing this up again, he doesn't want to hear about this, doesn't give a (edit) about me being in love with some other man, or about the fantasies in my head. I better stay the (edit) off this website, almost left but i was crying so he stayed...said our night is ruined. He doesn't want to talk to me anymore.

Give it time FM...it will sink in. He's totally in denial right now and doesn't want to face the truth. Hang in there and keep the faith...



Want2Stay

Sometimes people are in shock when they hear these words come out of their spouses mouth and it takes some time for them to realize what is going on.

As far as getting off of this website. I have this to say, you weren't "scared" away by 2x4's and "harsh" words from the posters here so why let your BH, who is scared himself, scare you off?

And, I definitely DON'T speak for MelodyLane(since I AM SCAIRT OF HER) but you should be grateful that she posts to you. She doesn't do so to get you to attack her, it's HER way. We need her around here. I was HONOURED when she would post to me. I even found myself having "arguments" about MB and DrH concepts when I didn't fully understand. One of the best compliments in my life was when I read the words, "Scotland, you were right on with that advice" and it was from MelodyLane. Everyone who has posted to you has made their dents in your Wayward fog.

BTW, I AM A GIRL.

You did the right thing FM.

Doing the right thing feels like it's the wrong thing in the beginning.
It feels unproductive now, but what you did was very productive.

You just saved your marriage from a lot of hurt, because your husband wanted to bury this.
He has no idea how deadly this is to you both.

I applaud you for stopping it before it went to PA status. That is more devastating for a man. An EA is just as bad, but men tend to be more devastated by the physical.

Because it is most of our top EN's.
He is scared FM, scared and doesn't want this to be true. he just wants it to go away.

He can't..only you can.

Sheesh, your H trying to sweep things under the rug, ignore the situation and hope it goes away. I just couldn't imagine what he would do if you really went through with the EA and it turned into a PA. Would he still think the same? Why does he not realize that his wife could have been gone by the end of the year? Why does he see MB as a threat?

I guess what we are trying to do is to shock your husband into getting on board with fixing his side of the marriage (mind you I am not using him as an excuse for an A). Obviously he does not like it, I'm scared for the state of your marriage with this man if what you are saying is true. Why can he not see the current state of his marriage?

On top of that continue to meet his needs, and help him meet yours without commiting any LB's.

How much time should I give DH for this to "sink in"?

After the blow up yesterday, I laid down by myself to just think about everything. A couple hours later DH came to apologize to me for his rude behavior. And he was OVER IT.

Today, he brought up OM casually several times...nothing to do with our "blow up" conversation...just general things about when all the guys hang out together. *?@!?!* (I changed the subject.)

My fear is that this is not going to sink in at all. If I had to give him time to "work through" it, I would. But he's not working through it because, again, we have no problem. He thinks we can't fix what is not broken.

I am happy that he will still be married to me and love me. Even though I was sad about yesterday, I thought it was good that he was angry. I thought we could make progress from there.

But he will not hear of this NC thing. Maybe he spoke to OM about me (after the first exposure) and they have agreed that OM isn't interested in me. Otherwise, you'd think he would hear me...and, at a minimum, not talk to me about OM.

I am reading HNHN, some parts I am rereading. I asked him to read it with me. No. Case closed. He has absolutely shut-down on the topic. There is nothing more that I can say.

How long does it take to sink in?

Melody, I'm starting to agree with you that it's a waste.

I think now the ball is in DH court as for how to handle this. I don't know what else I can do...

FM, like I said earlier it is up to you to end all contact with the OM. You are the keeper of your boundaries, not him. He doesn't have to agree with your boundaries in order for you to observe them and protect your marriage. Just because he doesn't see the danger of playing chicken in the road doesn't mean that you play chicken.

This is what could happen:

You go along with your husband (he's in denial and trying to put you where he is, i.e. it's in your head, your making something out of nothing..it's what he wants to believe)

Your feelings grow and grow for OM. OM knows this and is just downplaying to your husband.

Husband allows you to continue on.

OM plays along until he can get you off by yourself.
Makes his move
You fall for it and sleep with him

You either hide it from your husband and keep on for the thrill and you are "in love" with OM

or

You confess because you can't deal with the guilt after a short or long period of time.

or

Your husband discovers the PA on his own

End result:
Devastated husband

Destroyed marriage

You have to stop this..even if your husband refuses to acknowledge it.

He's burying his head in the sand
One of Satan's greatest tricks is to get people to believe he doesn't exist.
This affair exists and it will continue if you don't stop it.

I don't understand your husband's reactions to all of this. You're doing something most of us (the ones betrayed) would have given anything for in terms of having our waywards come to us before they actually acted on the feelings they had.

His reaction puzzles me and it is dangerous in the sense that he has an approach to things that if he's not dealing with them, then they aren't really happening. He also has a very unrealistic expectation and dismissal about you and your feelings.

In a way, this is what I feel is the big flaw in your marriage and the one thing you're seeking in the OM. You want your H to feel passionate about you and the only thing he seems to feel passion about is the avoidance of the truth and dealing with it.

Others can weigh in on this, but I can't fault you or bop you over the head much when you're doing everything we recommend and he continues to choose to stick his head in the sand.

...so we had a pretty good weekend (with this whole thing pushed aside...again). I went on to speak to my sibling and mother about it. They were both surprised that I had the audacity to tell my husband such a thing...and surprised by his reaction. My mother concurs that DH just doesn't want to accept that I could have feelings for anyone else because he loves me so much (and doesn't want there to be a possibility of losing me).

She believes he is doing a "dangerous" thing not to listen to what I'm saying. She thinks most people wouldn't even say it before acting on it.

(BTW, I was reading HNHN and my mother asked to see what I was reading. She read all of the parts that I highlighted...and she liked the book. I might start passing the books around. It never hurts for everyone to have a refresher course on how to maintain, or improve, their marriages.)

In any case, I think I've done all the homework I've been given thus far. *lol* I'm not going to say anything else to DH about this. What should I be doing now?

Incidentally, I DO understand that this is a slippery slope. My mind, being free to do whatever it wants, aimlessly wandered to OM (and I remind myself what I am trying to accomplish here with MB). But I just have to remember for myself that my feelings are the same for OM...regardless of DH's reaction...and I have to steel myself against those feelings and move forward in my recovery. What next?

No Contact with OM

This is always next.

Keep affair proofing your marriage..you're on the right track.

Kudos for nipping this in the bud on the onset

fm you need a plan for enforcing your boundaries. It will be difficult b/c I get the feeling your husband is going to fight you on this. He may even purposefully expose you to OM to 'prove' that there is nothing for him to be worried about.

You need to let your DH know, in no uncertain terms, that you don't want OM in your home, you don't want him mentioned - ever. PERIOD.

If your husband mentions him, tell him to stop - that you don't want to hear it, and leave the room.

Tell you husband you will never go to an event in which OM is involved.

And stick to it.

Determine your boundaries. Build your walls high and strong.

Any time you think about OM, you need to replace those thoughts with your DH. You need to change you thought pattern. Your DH needs to become your focus once again. You are doing so well. Keep it up.

I have loaned out HNHN and FILSIL. The friends reading those are very impressed by them.

I agree to protect your marriage, no contact is a must for you, ask your husband to have his relationship with OM by himself that you can't take the chance being around him.
Tell your husband that you are doing what is right for you because of your feelings and for what is best for your marriage and you hope that he can respect and understand your decisions....
It is unusual that your husband is reacting the way he is, maybe to painful for him to even acknowledge the fact that his wife has feelings for his friend....think about it that has to be hurtful even though he is not accepting it as truth......
some people are like that if they don't acknowledge a problem it doesn't exist.....
not right but a way of protecting ones emotional well being.......
You have to do what you have to do right now because you are stronger right now....that is what marriage is about, one has to be strong when the other isn't.....might be one of those times for you two.......
In the meantime I would maybe go to some IC sessions to make sure you can withdraw from your feelings for the OM without any long term problems......
Remember the affair was fantasy and not real life......sometimes our minds can make up all kinds of stuff that really isn't the truth......we just assume everyone else is on board with our thinking, not usually so..........
Be strong my friend and listen to the vets, they are wise beyond your years, they have a lot of experience to relate the facts to, you are not special here, they have seen all that you are thinking and saying.......

So I have been lurking around for the last couple of days. It helps to read the site to keep myself on task. I am writing now�ON MY THREAD�cause I actually miss you *lol*�and I have been �banned� from other threads. [Do you think I�m ready to post on other threads, yet? I do have something to say about the whole �soulmate� thing.]

Everything has died down around here. All of this is behind me and we are moving on (DH & I) like none of this occurred. This is what DH needs to feel happy�and as the WW I know that I am supposed to meet his ENs. There has been lots of affection (non-SF) between us. My DH is proud of me for�??? I have no clue.

I hate to even mention this because you have already given me the answer to this�I know the answer. BUT I am highly concerned about this wedding. DH wants to go and wants us to shop for a new suit for him. I am hopeful that OM will not attend�while the other half of my sick mind is�well, suffice it to say, I won�t be crying into my catered meal that I have to look at OM.

I don�t know how to get out of it without causing trouble.

I just cannot talk to DH about this anymore�but I have to set these boundaries�

I have been reading everyone�s stories: ElCamino, Vanilla, Atena�then, I go back and read posts that they made to me. It makes even more sense given their own stories. Thanks, again�I hope you all are doing well�ElCamino, I am sorry. Thank you for even posting to me at all in the past given how the stories relate. You have been helpful to me. Your pain and your words are not lost on me. I hope you get through this tough spot.

The latter part of this quote clearly states that this is far from being behind you.

I am not an advocate of lying AT ALL. But truthfully, if telling DH why you don't want to be at the wedding doesn't work, then I recommend getting "sick" the day of the wedding. Do a Ferris Bueller if you have to!

I think you're certainly right - our stories and experiences influence the way we view situations and how/what we post. However, you'll find that with affairs there is a predictable path that many of us have either walked or been run over on. An affair is an affair is an affair. So while we all speak from our own biases, there will be much commonality in what is said. Different faces of the same beast.

The same is true for MB (in a good way), in that there is a very particular path that many here have walked, and the principles and common themes do not change.

It's good that you're reading. Keep it up, especially w/ the BS threads.

Also, ditto on the wedding stuff. You know the mantra: NC. It's especially important now, though, given your proximity to D-day and your still warm and fuzzy feelings for OM. Please, have more respect for your M, your H, and yourself.

OMG, fullmoon, this gave me the shivers because this is exactly how I felt about my WH before the A. But let me tell you this is not a good way to be - this is a scary kind of happiness.

This might be me rambling but Pepperband recently posted a thread about smart people being stupid in other areas of their life.
My WH is a very intelligent man, Phd, reputable scientist in his research field BUT when it comes to emotions I have always known he had problems. Emotionally, he was 'illiterate' and he had no interest in learning to read.

We had 12 wonderful years together where we loved each other deeply. He was very 'happy' with me in the way you describe above. However his attitude in life (and particularly with emotional problems) has always been to tell himself that these problems do not exist and to ignore them until that becomes true.

I 'admired' this about him because I am a bit of a worrier and when something doesn't feel right for me with someone e.g. a disagreement with my brother, say, or a dispute at work etc I need to talk about it, tackle it and sort it out. I can't be at ease when this kind of problem is niggling at me. He, on other hand, behaved as if nothing was there and sometimes he was right because I worried about nothing but I realised when big issues came into our lives a number of years ago, his attitude was not healthy at all.

We had a baby who died during labour. Just before she was born, the midwife asked if we wanted to hold her. I hesitated because I was afraid but said yes. I held her for half an hour but WH refused to even look at her. He never cried or got upset or mentioned her name and refused to discuss my loss with me. The warning sign was there but I didn't want to see it.
Then when my mother died (he knew her for 13 years and they got on well) after a long illness, my family got a call to go to the hospital to be with her when she died. Instead to coming to be with me at the hospital, he went to the pub with friends and didn't even mention to them that his MIL was in the process of dying.
I could give other examples but when the A blindsided him, he was totally incapable of handling his emotions and facing up to them because he has always avoided them.

No matter how you 'love' this side of him, just as I loved this side of my H, I now know this is not a good, healthy way to behave in life. As Socrates says 'The unexamined life is not worth living.'

Just to add, the truly scary bit here is not that he doesn't let 'other people's problems get to him', it's that he doesn't let his own problems get to him.

And he does have a problem here. Don't let it go.

Does he have a problem with empathy? It sounds like it. My WH does.

I am feeling quite discouraged today. There�s nothing particularly special about today. I don�t know why.

But, I believe that it is impossible for DH to meet my ENs.
Maybe I am too ENy.

Isn�t it possible that one spouse could be too needy for the other?

I am considering just spending a few nights away from home. I hope it might do the trick�wake him up, wake me up. I think I�ll just go stay with my family for a couple nights. They only live a half hour away from us. I hope to go tonight.

When does Dr. Harley tend to recommend a��break�? (I am reading HNHN�not SAA since DH doesn�t consider this A, I thought I�d just try to figure out how we could meet each other�s ENs.)

Tully, Of course, I can relate to those things that you�ve mentioned. DH has never cried in all of the years that I have known him�and we have been through some pretty tough times. I would casually mention it to him maybe once a year in passing. How is it possible that someone never �hurts� or cries? When I tell him something that a person would typically find hurtful, he tells me that he is not hurt, he is �disappointed��and then he proceeds to ignore it. Conversely, I�m too comfortable being led around by my emotions.

Tully, Is your M in recovery? How did you get through to your H?

Not sure if it helps, but often I think the key here is to "decouple" certain aspects of one's character. Most traits people have sort of have two sides to them. For example, trusting, responsible, and consistent are generally considered good qualities. Gullible, anxious, inflexible, are generally not. But they generally come in pairs like this.

I can't remember who the quote belongs to, but I read someone say "the only thing someone needs in order to change is to want to change." But because these traits come in pairs, the desire to change is often lacking. For example, a person who prides themselves on being consistent, tends to remain inflexible, because (generally subconciously) they see this part of themselves as one thing. Once they realize they can be consistent, the quality they like, without being inflexible, the quality they don't like, changing it becomes easier.

I think it works the same way with our spouses sometimes. We are looking for them to change the "dark" side of something, and they are hearing (or feeling) that they have to change the "light" side of it.

Most men are taught to deny their emotions, and this can certainly get overdeveloped.

Addtionally, many people, not just men start to link feeling bad with being a failure. The logic being if one were good enough, nothing bad would ever happen, if nothing bad can ever happen, then one should never feel bad, therefore if one feels bad, they must not be good enough, in fact they are a failure.

Of course this doesn't work in the real world, since no matter how good one is, bad things can and will happen. So they typically start to deny reality (ignore the bad thing or claim it wasn't bad) and if that doesn't work they start to deny their emotions. Obviously, most people wouldn't realize they are thinking like this.


It's possible, I guess, but not probable. Do you think your needs are realistic?

BTW, unless you're in danger, leaving for a few days usually doesn't help.

fullmoon, While I was reading your thread I kept thinking, this is exactly how WH would have reacted! Many people here seemed surprised that he refused to see the problem and kept insisting that it must be because you were not being honest enough in your explanation to him. But I don't think so, I don't think it's you, I think he will do anything to avoid seeing the problem and therefore having to deal with it.

For example his rejection of this website and the advice you are getting here is just how WH would have reacted. If you don't like the message, block out the sound, refuse to believe it and, if all else fails, kill the messenger. And the more threatening the message, the more neccessary it is to block it out.


I am not in R. I am divorcing. I have thought for thousands of hours about how I might have avoided getting here and I still don't know what I could have done differently.
I am racking my brains to think about how you might avoid it.

Just to go a bit Freudian on you for a minute (not normally my style as I'm fairly down to earth) but I wonder if subsconsciously you are aware that something is wrong here and your EA is an attempt to give your relationship an electric shock to alert him to the problem. If it is, then please, this is not the way to go.

I hope I'm wrong and that I am projecting unfairly on your poor innocent H my experiences with my WH. But I'm not sure I am. I know that all of our characteristics have positives and negatives ends to their spectrums and that what makes us most special and loveable is also what people find most irritating and difficult about us. But this is different. I think his complete incapability of dealing with feelings is unhealthy not merely irritating.
In itself this is not the big problem, the real problem is that he doesn't acknowledge and accept his weakness. It's like a blind man who refuses to accept that he is blind and walks out onto the road. If he acknowledges his handicap and asks for the right help he can still have a full, good life.

I'm still thinking...

PS I wouldn't leave, even for a few days.

So DH and OM are going to a concert tomorrow with the guys (whoever that entails) tomorrow evening�����.I don�t mind, I hope they have fun�����but no fun for me, having to hear about him, and not see him��������hmm�����������.I don�t know how I am ever going to progress in my recovery with him in my life, the 3rd wheel in my relationship. When is he going to get married? That might help.

Tully, I am still slightly �confused� about how I could get myself into such a situation�and willing to consider any theory that would lead me to the light�including Freudian ones. I told Mark that this all happened in an instant, one day we were all talking, and in that moment�boom!...my �soulmate� was revealed to me. (Disclaimer: I believe that people can have more than one soulmate�so ONE of my soulmates was revealed to me. In my past, I have met at least 2 others. They�re�conveniently enough�all male.)

Anyway, Mark, explained to me with great care and detail, how the mind works�and how it is not likely that this occurred all in an instant. Maybe there could have been all kinds of subconscious stuff�some about the bickering (aka withdrawals from my LB) with very little emotions/passion, etc. (aka deposits to my LB)�so OM flirts, it�s �invigorating, I accept his flirtations...and look where that got me.

�all worked up over nothing, no release, DH out having a good time with OM, properly scolded on the internet by people who have already walked in my shoes, oft-times confused�and in purgatory. I can�t recover without support from DH. I got into this mess without DH help�why can�t I get out of it without him?
And if I do get out of it, if things don�t change�what�s to stop it from happening again? (I hope my newfound wisdom and following MB principles. I hope it's enough.)

You can't get out of it without him precisely because of situations like this concert. NC applies to both the WW and the BH. Every time he goes out with his friend he triggers you. He brings back your feelings for OM. Every time. You start right back at square one.

OM being married won't help the situation. It'll just bring one more person into the equation to be hurt.

If you can't get your husband to realize he is responsible for your love of him, he is responsible for your feelings, and he is responsible for protecting that love, then you leave your marriage VERY vulnerable.

I know you admire your husband as strong. I don't see him that way. I see him as weak. I see him as preferring to bury his head in the sand, rather than deal with anything he feels incapable of dealing with. He just convinces himself it doesn't matter. It DOES matter.

Think about it - if you could just 'switch' off emotions like that - what is to stop you from 'switching' off your emotions for HIM like that? THAT should be a frightening thought.

My fear is that over time, your husband will wear you down on the issue of NC with OM. Possibly as a way to 'prove' to himself he's a better man. To use your heart as the testing ground for your marriage. He'll expose you again and again to the OM, because each time you avoid OM and pick him, he wins.

Or, he just doesn't care - your worries for your marriage are irrelevant and shouldn't change HIS behavior. That's an even more frightening possibility. Your worries don't matter enough to him to be willing to do anything about it, even AFTER you've told him how dire the situation is.

And over time, you'll wear down. You will succumb. No matter how strong you build your walls, Contact with OM by you or your husband will be a chink in your fortifications.

Vibrissa, I think you have it right here.
I don't think he is testing fullmoon and making her choose him over and over. Neither do I think he doesn't care.
I think he is so deeply frightened of strong emotion (particularly negative ones) that his whole modus operandus is to avoid them. He has no faith in his ability to come through the other side of them intact. He believes (subconsciously) that they will crush him and he will not survive.

I think you are spot-on here. I think this is coming from your instincts, not your reason, and I think it's right. I think the OM is a minor problem compared with your H.

I think OM knows exactly what he was doing. He knows perfectly well the electicity passing between you and he encouraged it. In some ways, I think: so what? he's just scum - (imagine doing this to your best friend with his wife!) But at least he is a conscious scum-bag. Your H is so disconnected from his instincts that he doesn't sense the danger, not even when he's told it's there.

fullmoon, I am afraid that maybe the only solution I can see is counselling for your H. I suspect he will refuse point-blank as being 'not his thing' but maybe if you went with him and presented it as MC but in fact did some 'accompanied IC'.

I have 2 questions for you:

Has your H ever said a genuine, unsolicited 'sorry' to you or anyone else that you are aware of?

Has he a strong sense of pride?

Well, I don't want to generalize with my "No"...but he doesn't really apologize for who he is or what he does. I can't recall hearing him apologize to anyone off the top of my head. (I have to think about that...) He does apologize TO ME as a "bandaid" for whatever ails me...or to shut me up *lol*. And after he does apologize that should be the end of it forever hold my peace (<--of course, I'm not that easy.)



I've never thought of him as someone who is full of pride. He believes in himself without question, his mind cannot be changed by what you think or feel, and if you don't like it, it's pretty much your problem to deal with. However, he carries himself as somene who is very kind, affable, and everyone's best friend. When I think about it, it makes me smile.

Hmm�truthfully, my feelings have not yet gone anywhere though I�ve been trying out Scotland�s suggestion of replacing thoughts of OM with thoughts of DH. I�m going back to the gym and I LOVE that. One of my good friends just returned home from an extended vacation�so I am trying to keep myself even more occupied (if humanly possible). Some days I have great days�and others are not all that good. This is ridiculous. I wanted this switch to shut off like it seemed to have come on.

And, really, whoever thinks of being �infatuated� as an addiction? I should have been warned. *lol* This is absolutely ridiculous. Everything triggers me.


I hope this is not true. OM did have a girlfriend recently that I really liked; I felt guilty that I could not just *tell her*. (But we never �did anything� so there was nothing to tell.) I felt really guilty to look at her and *know*. Well, they broke up.


DH told me yesterday, �I am willing to do anything�anything it takes�to make you happy.� And, �If you would just stay happy, I would be happy for the rest of my life.� He says �anything� but I think there�s some implied small print there that says ��with the exception of IC, MC, and MB�and hearing you talk about OM�� Otherwise, he means it.

I have to find the right words.


Or if I keep talking to him about this, my fear is that DH may switch off his feelings for me� As we can see, DH is fully capable of controlling his emotions down to suppressing them right out of existence. He tells me if anything�a kiss, touching, SF�were to ever happen with me and another man, it�s over. There�s no talking, no second chances, no �back together�, no �working it out�. I�m inclined to believe him. I�m afraid to keep pushing him.

So, it would seem that he should help me block out OM. But he just cannot.


Absolutely. A person doesn�t protect himself against danger that is not real to him...

Oh fullmoon, you sound so like me - when I was in a more innocent place. Now I'm in a different place and I'm afraid that you are not protecting yourself.
This is true for you too.

Once I remember reading in a childcare book that the single most important thing for a child to grow up happy and well is to be looked at with eyes of love. This struck me as so true. The children are always shouting 'look at me' and when I look and see them playing it's as if everything around them fades away into soft focus.

For many, many years WH looked at me with eyes of love, he adored me. Then, one day that love 'switched off' and suddenness with which it dissapeared was so frightening. It was like an eclipse of the sun, except that nobody else noticed. It switched off long before the PA started (although he too absolutely refused to believe that such a thing as an EA exists). He was working with OW (his Phd student) and she, by her own admission, decided the moment she saw him that he was The One and determined to get him. (This isn't to excuse him in any way but just to give the context.) She was at that time in a relationship with a married man with 1 child whose marriage she had participated in breaking up.

He became closer to her and talked about her a lot to me. I remember one day (stupid that I was) telling him that I was fed-up talking about her - could she not sort out her own problems?

I suspect it was an EA for up to 2 years before it became a PA and I know that because his love for me 'switched off'. I talked, begged, pleaded with him to tell me what was wrong but he kept telling me I was 'paranoid' and he was totally impervious to my agony. Once the PA started, it is as if I ceased to be a human being to him and became an object. It was the most incredibly destabilising thing that ever happened to me. It was with huge relief that I found MB as it made me feel that his behaviour was 'normal' wayward behaviour and could be rectified. But now I know that Plan A/Plan B (especially Plan B) never had a chance of working. In fact no matter how far back I go in the past I can't really figure out a moment when I could have changed the course of events.

Anyway, I am telling you this because I see similar signs in WH as in your H although there are differences in other ways. I really think you need to get him into IC somehow.

I'll post this and then go back to your answer to my questions to pick up specifics and address them.

I believe him too. This is because, for him, emotions do not exist or, more accurately, they don't have any value because they are not tangible, visible, reliable. Only actions count because they can be witnessed, documented, independantly verified. (He has no faith in his ability to understand emotions but actions he can pin down.)


I hope you can see that these are 2 very different things that shouldn't even be compared. Nobody should apologise for who they are but everyone should apologise sometimes for what they do. You should think about this more. If he is capable of genuinely being remorseful and apologising for ANYTHING, eg forgetting your birthday, saying something hurtful even if accidentally, breaking or losing something that means something to someone else etc then I see hope. The real question is: is he capable of questioning himself, judging himself, finding himself guilty and then admitting that guilt? (This is what an apology is, for me.)

Good. Make him work for 'forgiveness'. It will stretch him a bit further.

I hope you can grasp how serious this is, what a major handicap this is in life. This means that he is incapable of empathy. But maybe he can learn the basics even if he will never be strong here,IF he is willing to question himself.
I have a friend whose brother is diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. Intellectually he is brilliant but he knows he is deficient in other areas. Last year he became a father and he is coping well but he knows he needs help to interpret situations and he is not afraid to ask for help.

fullmoon, it doesn't make me smile. It makes me nervous. Conflict avoidance at this level is not good.

A few more questions for you:

Does he ever express a moral opinion about anything? eg in the news etc. (Morality tends to be nebulous as opposed the law which is easier to pin down.)
Is he a dissapointing gift-giver?
Is he generous but in a passive (fine, go ahead) sort of way rather than in an active way?
Does he have a wierd sense of time? eg he'll say 'such a thing happened 3 weeks ago when it really happened 3 months ago'

Fullmoon,

Thanks for the words.

No doubt that we all bring our personal biases here � that�s inevitable given the traumatic effects of an A. At a fundamental level we all share VERY similar problems and that�s where Dr. Harley�s concepts excel at explaining why and how an A happens but more importantly how to survive it and prevent it. I hope you can effectively learn to use the MB tools before it�s too late.

Similar to your H, I can see how a few years ago there was NO way that I would even look into something like MB. I am quite sure that I would have immediately dismissed it with some kind of "I am not drinking that kool aid" remark. I thought that my M was fine. Well, I don�t have to tell you how wrong I was and how much that mentality has cost.

All I can suggest is that you somehow get your H to talk to Steve Harley. Be creative in how you convince him. Try something like: "I plan to do some counseling with MB but I don�t know if this is just a bunch of crap. Can you also talk to this guy so that I make sure that this isn�t some really whacky stuff?". Or better yet, talk to SH first and he can coach you in how to bring your H on board. Make the call, you won't be disappointed.

Best wishes

--ElCamino72

DH is out with his friends right now (OM and whoever else). BUT I have good news�

DH had, actually, decided (on his own) not to go to that concert. I had told DH to go ahead and go; I didn�t want to try to convince him not to go (given our previous conversations). Instead of buying a ticket to go to the concert with his friends, he came home and gave me two concert tickets for an upcoming show for US to go to together! I was surprised! &#61514;

DH decided he was going to spend today with me. We had a very nice--�romantic�-- day, spending quality time together, a movie, riding the motorcycle, perfect weather. We talked a lot.

Well, his friends KEPT calling him to go out tonight�so, I understand why he felt he had to oblige. But I FELT that he is choosing me and our M�and that he will commit himself to helping me.

I think if I give DH a little time (not pressure him) to make these decisions, he will begin more and more to make the right decisions that will fortify our M. Of course, I don�t understand OM being so determined for DH to go out�if DH is spending quality time with me. That�s a little annoying. Like I said, he is our 3rd wheel.

In any case, I talked to DH about his �emotions�~ his not EVER crying (as the obvious example). He said that I don�t want him to be a *bleep* (uh�soft man). I told him that I am concerned that I have not been able to �reach him� in all these years. He says he�s �just not an emotional person�.

I am afraid of DH one day being able to simply �not love me� anymore. I mean, right now I am in the prime of my life: in my best shape physically, sexually, my career, my self-confidence�I mean, I could probably bounce back if he decided that now. While I have lots of options. What if he decides that later after I have given him my whole life, everything I have�and he wakes up one day and just �isn�t emotional� and simply �doesn�t love me�? That�s REALLY scary. I know it�s a selfish question, but really�I think it�s a legitimate fear. But love is a risk, I know.

So we DO need to get to the bottom of this.

And, Tully, you�re right: OM is a minor problem in comparison... Today, we had such a great day�I FELT those �romantic� feelings for my husband� I can be in love with DH; my �in love� for DH can eclipse this �distraction� (fill-in-the-blank) that is/was OM if we keep talking and keep moving ahead in this direction.

I keep oscillating between discouraged and excited about my progress�between not thinking of OM and recalling that I love OM�I just wish I could be consistent. *LOL* But, today, was a great day.

fullmoon,

Do this.

Take OM to one side and say: 'I'm on to you, you piece of [censored]. This is my home too and I want you to know that you are not welcome in it. DH may be too innocent to see through you but I've seen and I don't like what I see. With friends like you who needs enemies? Go find someone else to prey on!'

If he protests that it's all in your head (which he will) respond with 'Don't give me that cr@p! I am not interested in having a discussion with you. I am informing you that you are no longer welcome in my home.' Then walk away, no not talk to him!
I guarantee your feeling of 'love' will go away because he will cut off the electricity supply.

Then get your DH into IC.

My DH does not really express opinions about �morality�. DH does not judge people on their �moral� behavior. DH believes that the purpose of life is to �be happy�. He seems to think that whatever it takes for a man to feel happy, it is that man�s right to pursue. That man would have to weigh the pros and cons of his proposed actions before pursuing them and be prepared to deal with the consequences. Some consequences/outcomes are worth it; some are not. [I am fairly certain of DH�s thoughts on these things as we are very adept at meeting our �communication� ENs.]

For that matter, I don�t even think DH would �blame� OM if he were �interested in me� if I make him feel good. He would blame OM (and ME) for not considering the consequences/outcomes and properly concluding that this is a bad course of action. He would blame us for �acting on it� (PA).

I hate to speak for DH in such detail. I would prefer DH tell his own side.

IF you have any questions/comments for DH, if you could post them here: I will ask DH and type his answers. DH is not big on typing but he always answers my questions and tries to explain. Also, he is getting more and more curious about this website since I am always on it these days. I believe DH will soon be ready to read some of it.

Yes and Yes as to the gift-giving and generosity�BUT he is getting much better with the gift-giving (and that was not something that was fundamentally important to me). However, when he does surprise me with something nice (i.e. the concert tickets), it does make a nice deposit in my LB.

The only thing weird about his sense of time is that if something happened an hour ago, it�s in the past and it�s over�and he is done with it. After all, he is living in the present; he plans to be happy and content in the moment. I don�t really consider an hour ago �the past�.

TULLY, can you share a little more about your situation? Did your DH ever go to counseling in his life (as a child or after the A)? Do you think he just decided one day that his feelings had irrevocably changed for you?

Does he realize this is the motto of our prison population? They were all doing what made them "happy."

It�s like you have taken the words right out of his mouth. I think if he felt this situation were so dire-- if I just stopped talking to DH and he felt that I were withdrawing from him, if I moved out of the home-- I think he might find counseling something worth trying�whatever it takes to make me happy.

I really think he is starting to come around and PAY ATTENTION�and I am FEELING like he wants to put the effort in and help me. That means everything to me.

I am SO GLAD that I re-discovered this website when I did (maybe I stumbled upon it once a year or so ago but I just kept right on by). This time, in my desperation, I stopped to really check it out. Just a month ago, I was headed straight down the path to my �soulmate�...to his bed or wherever else that path led�my own personal hell, most likely�the destruction of my family. Something in me was telling me stuff about stars and fate and love and�just fantastical fogbabble-type things. I am not 100% out of the woods�but I AM definitely on a different path. THANK YOU.


And this is one of those places where that �not 100% out of the woods� thing comes in. Tully, I know OM�s not �innocent�� At the same time, I cannot imagine why someone who cares for DH (I TRULY believe he considers DH to be one of his two best friends in the world)�I can�t imagine that he would intentionally come into my home and �prey on� my family. What motivation would OM have for that?

OM says that DH and I have �the American dream�. OM couldn�t intentionally want to ruin that. SO�my fog-mind told me, this has to be�(one of my) soulmate(s). It�love�happened despite all of the reasons it should not/could not have happened in this situation. Mark�s explanation of the brain, body chemicals, etc. helped clear that up for me.

Just so you know: OM has NOT been in my home, again, since D-Day. (I haven�t seen him for about 2 months.) That has been extremely helpful to me�no opportunities for any deposits in my LB. I think we will have NC for quite some time (I can�t say for life, yet, seeing as how DH has not ended their friendship). I can do my part to make it �for life��but not if he pops up in my home with his best friend (DH). But I believe that DH, in the end, will come to make the decision that is best for the M.

First, glad to hear the good updates! I think someone mentioned a while back that it may take your BH time to process this. Maybe this is evidence of that?

Now, for this next part, I need Mel's foghorn link:


THAT right there, young lady, is enough of that. You may feel like those are very legitimate worries, and that you have your "best" you right now - but that's not how you should be looking at this. 1) You're not your best you, you little fog-addled (F)WW. (<-- I mean that in the most affectionate way possible! ) 2) M - more than love (love = feeling that can come and go, M = commitment, bigger than just an "in love" feeling <-- that's what got you in trouble w/ OM in the first place, remember) is all about that risk. You jump, you go all in, you make that commitment come what may, because that's what M is.

And if it doesn't work out? Well, you tackle that only when that comes. The more time you spend hemming and hawing right now, wondering if it's worth the risk, always holding part of yourself back (because make no mistake, that's what you're doing when you entertain thoughts like this), the more you inhibit the R and growth of your M into what it can really be.

Your M and your commitment to it are more important than what kind of shape you're in, your career, etc.

And just so you don't take any of this as mean-spirited:

*LOL* Well, those prisoners must have missed that part about considering the consequences/outcomes and being able to deal with them.

I�m not all into this �everything is about being happy� stuff like DH. I think we have to do some things that don�t make us "happy" (necessarily) for the overall good. BUT, I admit, life is much easier when I'm smiling. There must be something to it.

Oooh, I don't know about this. I think NC trumps the message this would send OM. I understand the value of OM being a jerk, and thus helping fullmoon's "in luuuuurve" feelings dissipate...but I don't know.

That is the way of every person who values their "happiness" above all else. Most especially adulterers. The secret is that a standard of morality is the key to happiness. Happiness is the result of being GOOD, not bad.

fm, I don't recall if you posted more details about the stuff OM was saying/doing that enticed you... but this post here sounds a lot like fog, delusion, and/or naivete.

One of the things that I "used" to lead myself down the path of infidelity was the conviction that men were better than they are. As in, "No, this guy doesn't just want a piece of tail, I really mean something to him!" Guess what? It was all about the nookie, (thank you, Fred Durst).

You may think/tell yourself that OM is such a good guy, he really doesn't want to destroy your M, etc. - and maybe he doesn't, or maybe he tells himself he doesn't. But he knows full well what his actions are about, and if his actions were such that you fell for him, it is no accident.

One thing about infidelity is it makes you more cynical and less inclined to put a nice spin on people and their actions. It serves you well here in dispelling the fantasy. My $.02.

My BFF Vanilla!

How are you this morning? I hope you are doing well!

Yeah, well�I knew it was probably a selfish thought while I was writing it�so yes, it is �enough of that�.


Thank you for the kind words and encouragement. Thank you. I am very happy with his behavior.


I depend on you to show up with the foghorn right on time. You keep me on task.


Vanilla, I didn�t take it as mean-spirited at all. The other day, you know�I was just a tad �emotional� that day. You�re just not going to let me live that down, huh?

And he may want to be part of that dream. Evident by how much time he spends with your husband. The constant calling when your husband is with you.

Those are all planned out strategies.

He thinks you have the American Dream and he wants part of that..that even includes you.

Do not be naive, if he can get you to bed...he will. he wants to be doing the same thing your husband is. Envy is a cruel monster.

Maybe if I could bother Mark to explain to me, scientifically *lol*, how someone (OM) could genuinely be DH�s best friend and at the same time could be purposely trying to ruin DH�s �American dream�, maybe it will sink it.

But it baffles me that the two thoughts/goals could co-exist for OM.

It started off as nothing, really, him asking me about his appearance, if I thought he was �too ugly� to date [so and so]. I didn�t answer but I did *really* look at him. Surely, that was a ridiculous question� but he proceeded at different times. He always talks to me about him and women, his �problems� with women, what he has to offer women, what he expects from women. He�s kinda pushy about it�so if I try to �brush off� the answer, his personality is such that he demands an answer from me�which I find virile and masculine. *lol* I won�t go too far down that thought path. *lol*

When I was on FB, he commented on my pics a lot (all favorable stuff), he has gone on my friends pages where I would make a comment and comment to me, has taken pics off of my page and put it on his page. We got in an argument on FB (about politics) which actually made the attraction stronger. I do like a man who is �strong� and �firm�. He apologized and removed whatever comment I found offensive. [He never apologizes.] I would put up a status, then he would put up a status of his own (that would sort of respond to my status)�so it was indirect. Then, all of a sudden I became poetic�*LOL*�I put up some poetry. I felt guilty; I blocked him from reading it. He blocked me from his page. That hurt. I got off of FB altogether because�I don�t know what we were doing. Why are we arguing? Why am I posting poetry?!@!? for the whole world to see? He immediately came over my house and asked what happened to my page. I made up an excuse. I made myself not get back on�that was 6 � months ago.

When we�re alone, he stands next to me�but almost on top of me�imposing. He�s 6�-something�he is in my �personal space� in a way that makes me feel�you know�ummm� He�s unnecessarily touched me a few times and my body responds instantly. It�s as if he has stray hands that�oops�brushes me.

So my DH has him come over and they cook together. I don�t cook. I sit there and they serve me like a queen. Seriously. They both like to cook. OM needs to know how I feel about his cooking. He watches me put the fork in my mouth and on the first bite he demands an assessment. �and worries that it is not to my liking.

At these times, my mind is spinning. I�m looking at DH, looking at OM, looking at DH, looking at OM. �Can I have them both?� I think.

He�s called me. He whispered in the phone in the most sexy voice. In general group conversation, he�s mentioned what his (male part) and (mouth) is capable of�something I did not ask or need to know. I don�t even know how he gets away with half the stuff he says to me right in front of DH!

One time we all went to a party together and after the party, DH was pretty much passed out in the car. I was driving us all home (since I�m the �responsible� one *lol*). OM and I were sitting there together�this was *the moment*�I wanted 98% to do *something*, my mind was saying, �This is *the moment*��OM was saying my name�just saying it and shaking his head, said that he is going to be �good�, convincing himself, and saying my name. And we were looking at each other, talking/whispering-like� Then another friend interrupted and OM called that ex-girlfriend to break the moment. It was intense�I can hardly describe.

Sometimes he tries to push me away. He baits me into a conversation, then once I take the bait, he reminds me that he is not my husband. ?@!@#?! I don�t know whether I am coming or going. And I like it. Liked it. Like it.

And there�s more: innocent emails, eye contact, genuine serious conversations about life/love/politics/family� I mean, he is a good guy. I think he cares for me. And DH. I just think it just kinda happened and grew. See, now I am getting fog�confused�oh, oh�it�s getting dark in here�oh where�s the light?!�I�I�

I hope that�s enough�as I�m sure I�ll be seeing all kinds of pictures of cows pooping and vomit. And I know you didn't ask for so much detail but, of course, it's just waiting to come out. AND I should probably be forgetting this stuff so I can recover.

DH and I have had a wonderful weekend...and it IS going to keep moving in this drection... Okay. Good.

OMG!! fullmoon,

Stevie Wonder can see this man is hitting on you big time. Those are definitely plays to get to you.

Honestly, you can't see that?


This man is trying to work his way to your cookies, milk optional.

Yeah, fm, that's exactly right. Here, allow me:

First, don't acknowledge what you're doing as wrong, then continue to do it.



Just because you acknowledge it doesn't make it okay. Don't do it. Period. And my comment was not an invitation to open up the floodgates of Warm and Fuzzy Fogville. Dam it back up, honey. You see yourself where that got you. Don't let that keep happening, as it sets back R and is beyond disrespectful to your BH and M.

Second: w/ that foggy upchucking of affairland filth (wow, even I'm impressed w/ my description there!), you did prove that YES, ABSOLUTELY OM KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING.

And, no, he couldn't give a *insert ML's cow pooping icon here* about your M... OR your DH. He is playing you, and he knows exactly that.

What kind of person who "cared" about someone, who "respected" the institution of M, who "wanted what's best" for someone would then proceed to infiltrate that someone's family, insinuate himself in their lives, come on repeatedly to that someone's wife, touch that someone's wife inappropriately...and that's only the beginning!

I'll tell you what kind of person. A lowlife scum who doesn't have enough love or respect for you, your DH, or your M to keep his pants on and out of it.

fm, you have got to realize how poisonous this is. Keep working on good things w/ your H, keep making progress. I hope he does come here, and I hope you both can be open and honest about this OM situation and the immediacy required in addressing it with NC for both of you for life.

This OM is no friend.

oh yeah..I don't want to sound harsh, but that made me sick to read that. it shows blatant disrespect for your DH on OM's part.

Enemies don't always come in wielding knives and guns.

Ever heard of wolf in sheep's clothing?

The bad part is...you're falling for it.

Shaken,

I know you felt sick. And I felt sick myself. (...particularly after my perfect day with DH.) When I think of the things that occured myself...I explain to myself how I could have misinterpreted his actions. Maybe he actually did accidently touch me, maybe he was really explaining his prowess for general conversation, maybe he really wants me to set him up with my girl friends, maybe he stands that close to everyone because he is friendly. "Why can't I just take him at face value?" is what I keep saying. I don't want to assume just because I feel this way, he is a participant.

They can still be friends if they want. It's not getting into my head that DH's friend could be his enemy. My wrongdoing, I can see.

Vanilla, I know you didn't "invite" that. But, also, I still have room to rationalize that I was just seeing what I wanted to see...and creating this EA where maybe there was nothing just like DH thinks. I can't have room to do that...if I am going to stop their friendship.

I don't know why I want OM to be innocent.

If you all think these actions on OM's part meant what I thought it meant, then I don't have to worry about their "friendship" and what I'm doing to it.

But it just makes no sense for OM to be so close to DH...and try to ruin his life.

FM,

Your post is like watching the scene of a B horror movie. The one where the chick hears a chainsaw noise in the basement and goes in there to check. Everybody in the movie theater is like "run you dumb *bleep*".

You are going to get your M murdered. I'm off this thread cause the slashing movie genre is too predictable for my taste.

--ElCamino72

ElCamino,

I'm sorry for offending you. I especially don't want to offend you knowing what you are going through as we speak. I know I deserve all of these last few comments...

When it was time for exposure for me, that happened when all of the posters/vets pretty much drove it home that it had to happen...even when I wanted to fight it.

I was trying to move forward with this M, progress, just let DH and OM have their friendship...trying to tell myself that maybe I was crazy for thinking what I was thinking. It seems to me that you all think I have some basis for what I thought was going on...

It's difficult to take the 2x4s...but I know it is what's necessary to push me over this place. If OM is not DH's friend, I need to get OM out of DH's life.

"Run you dumb *bleep*". Yeah, I recall myself saying that and shaking my head at other people. Yeah...

I'm sorry, ElC.

It is too fresh and raw for ELC. No doubt.

But FM, I am glad you typed all that out about the OM.....his intentions are clear. I think rare would be the case that a married woman would be as wayward thinking as you without some very deliberate intent from an OM. I think you should print out that post of yours and have your husband read it. I am sure your husband has watched this 'friend' of his in action many many times over the years. He will recognize the stuff you typed out....

Because to admit otherwise is to admit that you fell in love with scum. No one wants to believe they have a bad picker, or that they could possible love a bad person, because this reflects badly on them. It's the same reason you hear a battered wife stick up for her abuser - saying "he's really a loving, great guy" and "it's my fault, I just can't keep my mouth shut."

The reality is he WAS hitting on you. He DID want to get in your pants. He WAS acting like scum.

It's very simple. He admires your husband. He wants the American Dream. He wants the wife, and the family, and the good job and the nice house. He covets those things. He's close to your husband because he wants it to rub off. However, he doesn't necessarily want to do all the work to get it. He feels entitled to it.

So if he gets you- if you leave your husband you get alimony. He uses that money and can set himself up. He can essentially steal the American Dream.

Now it's a lie. He really can't. But he thinks he can. And this may not even be rationally thought out in so many words. Most of it is probably subconscious. He admires your husband and covets what is his. He wants it for himself, so he opened himself up to a relationship with you. He used his skills to create it. He can use the justification that 'it's love' and you two are 'soulmates' to get what he feels entitled to.

These are the justifications he's used on HIMSELF to rationalize his behavior.

See our minds are very flexible things. We protect ourselves and justify ourselves all the time. No one wants to be a bad guy. No one wants to be destructive - not in their own head, they want to be able to sleep at night. So they construct a web of lies, rationalizations and justifications for themselves to explain how it is all right. That's the fog.

You used it to rationalize falling in love with OM.

He's using it to rationalize falling in love with a married woman.

And he can abdicate responsibility for his destruction but hiding behind the excuse that it's 'real love' that 'he didn't mean for this to happen, it just did' you two are 'special, soulmates'.

Doesn't change the fact that what he is doing is evil and wrong. He has lied to himself that he really is your husband's friend, that he can't help his actions.

It's BS.

It's wayward fog.

Just as thick as your own.

He is just as culpable as you. My advice (which I'll willingly retract if others think it a bad idea) is to create a log of EVERY inappropriate interaction between you two.

i.e. 6/10/09 I posted xxxxx on Facebook, OM replied with xxxxxx. or 4/3/09 went to party where OM touched me on the arm.

The reason I say to do this is to create a history where you show how OM has used and manipulated you to this point. This is hard evidence you can give to your husband. You need to show him that this man is trying to take what is his.

The reason I'm hesitant to recommend this is because you are still fighting the fog and this could bring it back - this could be considered Contact. So really I don't know it is a good idea. I just know that the OM is culpable here and your husband MUST get rid of him, but he wont unless he has evidence of actual infractions.

Just a thought - I'll let others comment on if it is a good idea or not.

ETA:

This may be a better solution.

How do spies get into the enemies territory?

By pretending to be something you are not.


It was like watching a bad episode of a cheating Lifetime movie reading that.

You weren't imagining a thing.

This man is out to wreck your M by getting in close to your H and warming you up at the same time.

Ugggh! He is not innocent.

I didn�t want to invite your ire today with a big pile of �fogbabble�...especially after being in such a good mood. My thread was leveling out to all �nice� posts, smooth sailing�BUT, something is not right yet�.

While DH and I were having UA time yesterday, DH received quite a few calls from his friends (including OM). I was thinking that OM must *REALLY* like DH, they must really be best friends, maybe I imagined all of this EA�why do they need DH to go out with them? There can be no room for this kind of thinking. If OM is not DH�s friend, I must accept that�and I have not.

Part of me not accepting it is that I (and OM) am the only one with the details�and I can find justifications for all of those things, how I misinterpreted things. The MOST puzzling of all is that�many of the inappropriate comments were made right in front of DH. If DH cannot see anything wrong, then I must be crazy. Why am I seeing inappropriate behavior where it was innocent conversation and actions? So, now you know some of it�you, of course, have no time or inclination to justify anything�and you just put it to me straight.

I�m sorry, again�

I�m not going to spend the rest of the day thinking about this since it is taking away from my UA time. But, if this is clear to you, then I have to get him out of DH�s life. But why would anyone do that to a friend? What is his endgame? He has nothing to gain from this. He has SF with plenty of women; he doesn�t need me. Before I came here (MB), of course, I was thinking �love� and �soulmate��I know better now. Does there even need to be a reason? Or do we just do stupid things for no reason?

I've posted this before, but I think it fits here, so here ya go...

A Native American legend: The parable of the Rattlesnake

A young boy was walking in the mountains, high up, near the tree line. The weather was cold and winter was about to begin.

As he walked along, he found a rattle snake. It was coiled up tightly, braced against the cold wind.

�Please help me!� the snake said to the boy, �If I don�t get down to lower elevations and warm up, I�ll surely die.�

�Help you!??� asked the boy, �Why would I help someone who could harm me?�

�If you don�t help me, Ill die!� said the snake. �But if you�ll just pick me up and take me down the mountain with you, I�ll have a chance to live.�

�But you�ll bite me if I touch you, and then I will die,� said the boy.

�No,� said the snake, �I promise that if you�ll help me, I�ll let you live, for I will owe you my life.�

So the boy, after contemplating his course of action, picked up the snake, placed him inside his coat and began his long climb down the mountain.

The snake began to warm up inside the boy�s coat, and as his strength returned he began to move around, Then the snake bit the boy on his side.

The boy tore the snake out of his coat and shouted, �You said you wouldn�t bite me if I helped you and now you�ve done just that! I am going to die here on the mountain and my family will be devastated. No one will even know what has happened to me. My people might blame the neighboring people and think that they have done something to me. There could be a great war and many people will die! You promised! How could you do such a thing?�

�You knew," said the snake, �what I was when you picked me up.�

fullmoon,

I don't know where to start.
This has become a very personal thread for me. And this is a double-edged sword. I'm not sure if my experience is a help here or if I am projecting my own situation too much onto yours. Please let me know at any point and I can step back if necessary.

That said, you answered all my questions exactly as I expected with regard to your DH's attitude to moral issues, gift-giving, apologising, generosity and even to time. This is EXACTLY how my WH was. I asked all those questions to verify this and make sure that I wasn't imagining things.

People here have suggested that you print out that post where you describe what happened between you and OM and show this to DH and this will galvanise him into action. I seriously doubt it but you could try. I suspect he will continue to block out that message and refuse to believe. He will still try to convince you that 'it's all in your head' (whatever that means) and therefore it doesn't exist. You even partly believe him already.

The reason for this is that he is very emotionally retarded. He has an emotional age of about 5 years old. For some reason, (maybe abuse of some sort but I'm not sure if the reason really matters) his emotional progress stopped. He is like a child, appealing in a straighforward, simple way, capable of showing huge love but it is the narcissistic love of a child. Small children start off with no ability for empathy and no morality, they learn these things naturally as they grow up. Children will follow (or break) the rules but often they have no understanding of the logic behind the rules. Big people have set these rules and they abide by them but they feel safe because there is a benevolent overseeing presence that will pull them back into line if they overstep the mark. Naturally, children, as they move towards independance and autonomy, start to integrate a certain understanding of the logic behind the rules. In the best of circumstances, they develop a 'moral compass' which guides them to 'goodness' - the north in this analogy. The North is not something that is variable ie there is a 'right' and a 'wrong' that is there and is not dependant on how you process it. Of course your compass can be shaken about by traumatic circumstances and temporarily you may lose the north but things settle down and your compass finds the north again. Your DH has no compass. He cannot understand feelings (which are an essential part of morality), neither those of others nor his own. But what worse is that he is scared because he doesn't have that overseeing, guiding presence that will protect him either because he is an adult now.

'Doing what makes me happy' is what guides a child. MelodyLane made a very valid point about morality in response to you but when I saw it I KNEW you would respond with the point about 'calculating the consequences' because that's what WH would have said.
As a result, your DH is incredibly vulnerable to an A because you don't go to prison for infidelity - there are no real 'legal consequences'. There are very serious emotional consequences as we all know here but this level of understanding is WAY beyond your DH's capablility to understand. (Even 'normal' people find it hard.) But I am not just talking about infidelity, life is full of other obstacles and tough times.

Earlier you questioned 'what if he just stops loving me in the future? Should I leave him now while I am still young and able to build another life?'
This is a very valid question and worth asking. But I am hoping you can protect your M - and DH. As I've said before I think the key is to get him to become more aware of his impairment and vulnerability.

You asked about my personal situation and I will let you know in another post just in case it helps.

As for a practical way forward, I still think OM is a minor issue compared with DH but he is still a threat. He is a toxic friend and you need to get him out of your lives. He knows exactly what he is doing and I can't think of any other way to get rid of him other than using the method I suggested earlier. The speed with which you will lose all feelings of 'love' for him when he switches off the electricity will confirm that he is far from 'innocent'. You will see his 'real face' then.

DH will not get rid of him but you can use this as an example to help DH to face conflict in a non-threatening way.

Sorry for this marathon post but I really, really hope you can sort this out.

My thoughts and concern are with you.

It's only a matter of time if you don't insist on NC for life with this man. You can explain away but it is clear this is no friend to your marriage.

My WH never went to IC - he thinks it all hocus-pocus and completely useless. We did go to 2/3 MC sessions after the A only because he knew it was what was expected of him but it was far too late. His mind had closed down on the issue. The thing is that I think, of all the strong 'negative' emotions (fear, sadness, grief, jealousy, anger etc), the 'worst' has to be guilt because it attacks surreptiously from inside out. He could never face the guilt so he kept doing worse and worse things to protect himself from guilt and in a vicious circle, the worse he behaved, the less capable he was of facing what he had done and the ensuing guilt.

This parallels my story too. Almost everyone who knew us thought we were the Perfect Couple. Over and over, I have heard people say 'of all couples to break up, I thought you would be the last'.
OW came to our home along with other young people from WH's lab. I now know that she saw our life and wanted it. I was a SAHM of 4 small children and I think she thought I was a mere accessory in WH's life, not a co-creator of that life.

I met WH when I was 22 and he was 25. He fell headlong in love with me instantly and I was so dazzled and flattered by this attention, I fell in love too. For example, he was going home to his parents house for Christmas 4 days after we met. (At that time we lived in my country.) When he came back, he took a taxi from the airport directly to my apartment because he couldn't wait the extra 10 minutes it would have taken to drop off his bags at his own place. Possibly I should have seen this as excessive but instead I was thrilled. It was a wonderful, passionate, intense relationship that I thought gave me everything. I wasn't a very experienced 22 year old and for a time I thought having SF 2/3 times a night was the norm.

We spent 10 wonderful years together before the children. We travelled the world, went out most nights and had a ball.
Then we moved to his country to allow him to avail of a great job opportunity.
We had our four daughters (It wasn't really planned that way but we had twins and then a 'surprise'.) Life was still good but much less exciting, more routine.

Of course, through the years I came to realise that WH was emotionally deficient despite his high level of intellectual intelligence but I didn't care, I loved him, I helped him, I interpreted situations for him and it made me feel important and essential. I never realised just how serious things were although the signs were there (I mentioned a few incidents in a previous post)

During my pregnancy with my last DD, OW came to work with WH as his Phd student. She decided he was the man of her life and she needed to be with him. I think the main EN she gave him was Admiration. She thought he was a god in every field, I on the other hand only admired him as a man.

As I explained before, his love for me was extinguished and he transferred it to her. I tried desperately to get through to him but couldn't. Using the logic you describe when talking about your DH, he decided being with her made him 'happy' so he was entitled to it. He sees no moral issue here although it was always very clear between us that fidelity was an essential part of our M. Anyway, without going into details, he behaved dreadfully towards me and I couldn't believe it that he would treat me this way.

MB was a life-saver for me. I found out about wayward behaviour and it was what I could see in WH. I remember very well one phrase in an article by Dr Harley where he talks about 'occasional gaps in the fog' and this struck me as so true.
During one of these brief gaps he showed a rare moment of semi self-awareness in this email he wrote to me shortly after I found out about the A.


Despite his meanness and horribleness to me, sometimes I still feel sad because I can see that he is with someone who will destroy him (this is her second affairage) and he is so lost and incapable. But I can do no more.

fullmoon-

When I read about the OM's behavior the thought that crossed my mind was "he's acting like a high school jock/Big Man On Campus". Remember those guys? It's all about the "notch" on the bedpost (to be crass) and about "winning" in the competition for who has the most girls.

It's adolescent behavior but some men (and women) don't seem to grow out of it. The OM seems that way to me.

BTW, I'm a high school teacher...

I need to ask this:

You two have been alone together with all these "feelings"

and nothing happened?

tully,

That email shows that he had so much insight. He could see that he was enjoying feeling young again, and that this "youth" that he was regaining wasn't real. He could see that your relationship had been wonderful for many years. He could see that the affair was a cul-de-sac and that he was being stupid to walk away from his marriage for something with so little promise, and yet he could not use that insight.

He chose instead to deny the truth of it and say that his affair would not end like the others that we read about. Perhaps he would be the exception; the 40-something man with an affair partner 17 years younger whose affair would work out. He could leave the wife of his real youth, with whom he had built a life and created children, and stay forever with this experienced marriage-wrecking ho who was "genuinely in love" with him.

How very sad that he could see all the pitfalls and futility and yet chose that self-destructive path.

Shaken,

That�s accurate...nothing physical has happened. I am not here to lie; that serves me no purpose. I didn�t say it was *easy* to practice restraint (for me) but both of us have. SO, OM must have some redeeming qualities if he hasn�t tried to cross the line physically.

Also, we haven�t been alone together for very long periods at a time�the longest being about a � hour. That time, he began telling me a very deep story about when he was younger, some trauma he experienced involving his parents�DH came back and interrupted the story. I felt very empathetic toward him then. More �love�. Then, I found this MB discussion board...

The only "redeeming" quality he had in these moments is that YOU didn't cross that line. He gave you the "green light" as it were. You just didn't "go". If you had, he would have as well.

If you say so, personally, from what you have written..he's a snake to me..just like Mark eluded to.

If he wasn't..he would not have groomed you so well to fall for him.
Staying away from him is the best thing you can do.

You still think he has redeeming qualities?

Don't stay away from him and you will see how redeeming he is.

Yes, I understand how difficult it must have been to speak to him once he decided that he was �closed� on the issue. I mean, there is nothing that you can say. Do you think you have some idea when he developed this ability to �shut down�? Did he �shut down� about other troubling incidents during your M (besides A)? Like what?


That�s very scary. It is just a �powerless� feeling to not be able to �get through� to someone you love. I�m sorry, Tully.


I�m sure you didn�t want to hear that.


Then, perhaps this is the same situation with OM in my case. OR others believe he is just after a notch on his belt�maybe both.


Hmm� Could this just be the nature of the person? DH has not had any trauma in his past. I don�t know if counseling would help him; there is nothing to �dig up��unless he hasn�t told me something. (He thinks it�s hocus pocus, too.) I can�t imagine that there is something he hasn�t shared with me in all of this time. Did you learn of some trauma that your WH had experienced to, perhaps, cause him to be able to �switch on� and �switch off� his emotions?


I have such a difficult time with this. How could this woman come into your house, look you in your face, probably smile in your face, talk to you as a �friend�, and do this to you?!? I just don�t understand this.

Even when OM started dating a girl, I felt so guilty towards her (for my thoughts alone)�I told them BOTH that I thought she was a great girl for him (she was sweet)�and I tried to just back off, don�t send him email, no FB�just let go. He broke up with her shortly thereafter. DH told me.

I wonder what this OW must have told herself to feel good about herself. She knew what she was doing; she had done it before. I just don�t understand�

He loved you, you gave him the best/happiest years of his life (which he tried to recreate), maybe some of the best years of your life�and he still didn�t know how to stay. I don�t know what to say.

I don�t know what to do, either, to prevent it from happening in my case.

So, I have two issues here: (1) myself with OM and (2) the possibility of DH really shutting down on me. You�re correct, my issue with OM does seem to pale in comparison.

I am glad that MB has been a lifesaver for you and gave you some modicum of clarity that you needed. How long ago has it been since you separated? You seem like you have come to adjust but there are still sad days. I am sorry, Tully. Thank you for sharing with me�

Shaken,
It seems that you all agree with me about the EA (even if DH does not). You all have a complete picture of what's going on (even if DH does not). I know I have to stay away from OM.

My issue was deciding whether or not OM is truly DH's friend...and whether or not I have to get DH away from OM. How I am going to accomplish this is a whole different story. I can print the post and leave it conspicuously on the dresser for DH to run across (and read)...if I bring it to DH, there's just going to be another blow up. Hmm...

OM's redeeming qualities (whether they exist or not) should be no concern of mine.

tully has given you a good outline of how to approach your husband.
Your DH is not going to "unfriend" the OM. He doesn't see him as a threat..just yet.

He doesn't realize how attracted to OM you are, even after you have told him. he wants to bury this. Not handle it maturely.

Besides..he will continue to deny anything of a froward nature if confronted by your DH.

Your husband is going to blow up regardless..but he needs the facts. leaving the post would be a sure fire way to get his attention. He needs to really know what has transpired. Prepare for a fall out either way.

I apologize if I seem harsh.. I am really hoping you get this ironed out.

Sugar,

This was one of the very few moments that gave me hope. It was one of those brief clearings in the fog that Dr Harley talked about.
He really had very little insight, on the whole. My first reaction was to be so scared for him, not me. I knew how vulnerable he was, how completely unarmed he was.

Tully

He has always had the ability. It's just that when we were young, there wasn't much to shut down about. It was only when hard things happened in life (as they tend to when you get older) that it became a real 'issue'. He behaved like your DH now, straightforward, likeable, 'everyone's friend', not 'best friend' because he never confided in anyone (except me) and he didn't invite confidences. If there was something he didn't like he withdrew and 'sulked'. He had a capacity to keep this up for a long time and he never apologised.

The two most significant other incidents were on the death of our daughter and the death of my mother which I have already described. He hated any 'weakness' on my part and would temporarily 'shut down' on that. Luckily I had good health but I am pretty sure that if I had got cancer for example he would have left me.


No, I know of no trauma in WH's past but I think that's beside the point. The point is not to 'dig up' something, the point is to make him understand his limitations and make adjustments in his life for this. We are back to not protecting yourself against the dangers you don't acknowledge.
It's like someone who is illiterate - what incident caused this to happen is not the point, the point is to teach him to read a minimum.

You are too innocent. I was the same, I didn't even see the danger at the time. I could see her juvenile admiration of WH, she joined the gym in our village even though she didn't live here, she befriended my friends and started running with them but above all she met and knew my children and despite all that destroyed their family. Whatever about between adults, but how could she do that to innocent children? She is a viper in the nest (or a rattlesnake, as Mark said). And I KNOW OM is, too. Why he is doing what he is doing is irrelevant, just do what it takes to get rid of him!


Issue 1:
You could try to get through to DH by giving him all the details and have him break his friendship with OM. I don't think this will work but you could try.
OR you take OM to one side and say what I said. This, IMO, is your best option. And you will see, vipers do not like when people see them for what they are.
Let me tell you, if I knew then what I know now about OW, I would turn into a tiger to protect my family and rip her head off.

The far more difficult issue is issue 2.
The only solution I can see is IC. I know he sees it as hocus-pocus but my idea was to disguise it as MC and get him to do it 'for your sake'. The key is to get the right councellor.

Acutally, just to clarify. He didn't develop an ability to 'shut down'. It's that he never developed an ability to 'open up', to expose himself to strong emotions and to deal with them and so 'shutting down' is a defense mechanism.

fullmoon,

I had an interesting conversation with DD12 yesterday (they just came back after holidays with WH and OW).

DD12: What are you doing on the computer?
Me: There's someone on the internet who has a problem and I'm seeing if I can help her.
DD12: What's her problem?
Me: Well, it's a woman and her husband's friend is interested in her and she is kind-of interested in him and she's asking people what to do.
DD12: What are people telling her to do?
Me: That she should tell her husband and he will make the friend go away. So she did but he said he says he doesn't mind about what she thinks, only about what she does.
DD12: That's stupid!! That means he doesn't care.
Me: Why do you think that?
DD12: Well, if you don't care about what someone thinks, then you don't care about them!
Me: That's a very good point.
DD12: What did you tell her to do?
Me: I said she should tell the friend to go away and leave them alone.
DD12: So is she going to do that?
Me: I don't think so.
DD12: Why?
Me: Because she doesn't want to be mean to him.
DD12: But he's the one being mean to them. Does that mean she doesn't care either?
Me: It's a bit more complicated than that... but not much.

I'm delighted to note that emotional retardation is not hereditary.

fullmoon,
I've never posted here before but your sitch is something I can relate to. Many years ago my suposed BF since 3rd grade secretly dated and SF'd pretty much any girl I dated. I knew something was off but I was absolutly floored to find out 10 years later. I thought for many years something was wrong with me GF telling me "it's me...not you"...blah blah blah.

Of course he was in my ear the whole time...the inocent friend helping with MY problems!!!

This is all several years behind me now and I acutally feel sorry for him. Because karma is a B.....! It also had the added effect of me not trusting anyone for a long time, I've progressed in that I now have hope but verify.

You must get this guy out of your M it's his own personal agenda, he will destroy you both!

Tuff,
So what happened that opened your eyes to your friend�s �true colors�? When did you stop being friends? Since you are checking out the MB website, you must have had trouble in your marriage. Was this trouble the result of your supposed friend?

I hear you. I know that OM has to go�not that I know how I am going to accomplish that. Right now, I am thinking about approaching OM as suggested by another poster, Tully. There is a wedding coming up that I am not supposed to go to (due to NC)�but DH says we�re going, case closed. So, if I must break NC (and potentially start my recovery from Day One�I�m scared of *that*), I might as well make it count�

Fullmoon,
Our friendship started to end when I joined the military. About three years into my first enlistment I met a girl while home on leave...same story as before! This time she decided to tell me the truth.

It took a long time to go over highschool memories and ended up contacting an ex of his. Yep, she had the whole story! Basicly this "friend" who I helped when his Mom died (that's how we met) enjoyed toying with people.

I was young and dumb I didn't see him for what he truely was. I missed out on a lot of possible relationships because he was the cool guy/bad boy. Just like your OM he constantly flirted in front of me. Somehow he had me convinced that he was being funny and who knows what else behind my back. I cut him off and never looked back...but like I said Karma he finally got his!

I'm close to retiring now and has nothing to do with my curent problems. I was reading your thread and can personally relate to being in you husbands shoes. Just like someone mentioned on your thread...I've been called emotionally retarded but it didn't sink in until I got the ILYBNILWY speech eight years ago and I can't count how many threats of divorce.

Hopfully your in for the long haul, I'm still working on the emotional thing and I'll guess your husband and I probably have that in common too.

I'm no expert and don't know if confronting him will help or hurt. I know my exbf would probably see it as a challange and up his game. If you want to get through to him use a brother or uncle to shake up your H to the truth. I'll guarantee the OM is the master of spin and will try to turn it against you.

fm,

This is silly. Your H cannot make you go. Stop making it sound as if you must go. I take it that your H does not lead you around by a chain?

As for the paradox of contacting OM to say "NC":

Dr Harley recommends that a NC letter be written. it should be approved by your H, and supportive of him and your marriage.

I can see that your H will not approve a NC letter and will respond the same way that he has responded to everything else on this subject. However, YOU can write the letter. Use the template provided in the book Surviving an Affair. It tells the OP in no uncertain terms to leave your marriage alone.

Sugarcane is right. As I have said before, you are responsible for ending all contact with the OM, not your H. You don't need your H's permission to do the right thing. It is up to you to guard your boundaries, not him.

Tell your husband you won't be going to the wedding just after you send the no contact letter to the OM. You are not a child and your husband is not your big poppa daddy. You are an adult woman who is responsible and accountable for her life.

Mel, let me ask you�do you think I should have DH go without me? That�s what is going to happen here. He is going to be upset with me, that I am �SO in love� with his own friend, that I can�t even manage to make a 3-4 hour wedding. He is going to be there with other single women (who are interested in DH), dancing with other women, drinking, and with OM. When he explains to OM (his best bud) why I am not there, OM is going to make it look like I am crazy and imagining this whole thing (which DH already wants to believe)�and they get to have a little �f*** women� conversation at my expense.

No, nobody leads me around by anything. But these men do have some power where I am concerned�I don�t like it�but it is what it is.


If I send OM that NC Letter, OM is going to have physical evidence of my feelings for OM�which I am afraid he will use against me�show the other people at work, embarrass me and DH�and DH is not going to be so forgiving (after he has already told me his position on the subject).

Mel, I don�t want to see OM. Quite frankly, I am afraid that he will say something(s) to impede my progress here. I FEEL much better today than I felt on 6/29 when I arrived here. I thank you and all of the vets for that. I know I am not finished all of the work I need to do�BUT I want to KEEP my DH. I don�t know how many more chances I get to tell DH about my feelings for OM�or how many more times those feelings get to interfere with my life with DH�before DH determines to take some action on his own (which probably won�t be too good for me)�

If this is really a boundary - you will protect it no matter what. Nothing your husband says or does will keep you from maintaining NC.


They only have the power you let them have. So what if they [censored] behind your back. YOU know you are doing the right thing. YOU know you are standing up for your marriage. YOU know OM is scum (you do know this right? No more of this, he may be innocent crap)


You have done something embarrassing and despicable by going outside of your marriage to get your needs met. It is EMBARRASSING. You SHOULD be embarrassed. If he shows the world - well that just shows you what kind of scum this man is. He has NO interest in your well being, or in yourself as a person as anything more than a lay.

Exposure is GOOD.

Affairs thrive on secrecy. If he tells the world - well less chance of the affair flaring up then huh?

Really I'm not seeing this as a negative to sending a NC letter.



Maybe your DH SHOULD decide to take some action of his own. You have cheated on him. You have committed adultery in your heart. You have fallen in love with another man.

Right now your Betrayed Spouse is playing 'hide my head in the sand'. So you're getting a free pass. However, if he realizes the magnitude of this and decides to take his head out of the sand, he could decide he doesn't WANT this marriage. That isn't a consequence of going NC - that is a consequence of your EA.

You chose the EA. You can't chose the consequences you get from the EA. You can't be wishy washy on NC as a means of manipulating your Betrayed Husband to stay in the marriage because you want to KEEP him. If he can't handle the betrayal, YOU don't get to chose if you keep him or not. Doing the right thing - going NC and enforcing it won't ruin your marriage. It wont lose you your husband. The EA will do that - and that is already water under the bridge.

Again, this isn't a valid reason to not go NC.

This reason is actually manipulative and cruel.

Though I only have my suspicions, I think this is the case with OM in my situation. He�s, actually, quite intelligent�a political thinker, enjoys playing chess, strategy games. By the time I started making these observations, I was already involved.


OM definitely plays the bad boy role, well. And a lot women are fools for that... Like me.

I just can�t believe myself, getting so involved�I�m just glad that, overall, I am smarter than him. *LOL* At least I found MB in time (...to stop what DH considers to be unforgiveable).


Yeah, DH is absolutely convinced that it�s �nothing�. OM says half of the stuff in front of him and DH says nothing. So I did figure it was a "free pass" for me to have a little fun. Isn't DH the barometer of what's acceptable to him in our marriage?


So it took the ILYBNILWY line to get through to you. How do you think I should handle this with DH? DH said that he is willing to do anything to make me happy (though I am supposed to have enough commonsense to know what �anything� excludes).

There is a problem with my NC�as you may have been reading about this upcoming event. Given your previous �emotional retardation� (for lack of better words), how do you think you would have felt in this same situation? How would you have reacted if your W didn�t want to go to this event to avoid your best friend? I know it�s just speculation�but I am trying not to push DH too far�

If everyone is sure, I will not go�but I know there will be fallout�

(In the best case scenario, OM is not going since he won�t have a date or whatever. Then, I can go with DH without consequence. I will find out from DH if OM is going for sure�)


I�m certain that OM will *try* to turn it against me. So far, I am the emotional dramatic estrogen-filled woman falling in love with random people who don�t even want me�and OM is the calm rational chess-playing buddy who DH can hang out with and have a few brews (like they did on Saturday night). Not helping my situation at all.

Okay, I get this. I have no room to question that. You all know the bulk of what has occurred; we are all on the same page. But DH does not/will not/cannot believe it�and I am not going to try to force my husband to�

Think of it this way: if you were a woman who slept with 50 men before you were married�some people would have bad names for this woman. But, suppose, you found a man who loved you anyway and wanted to marry you, and you are not a **** to him�do you spend all of your time trying to beat it into his head that �I am a ****. Why won�t you just accept that?� No. You are going to be happy that you were fortunate enough to find someone who loves you in spite of�

So, I know I had a terrible lapse in judgment. I was �having fun�/having ENs met by this OM�at great risk to my family. THAT IS OVER. I am still afraid of OM because he has an effect on me�but I have all the tools from you, from MB, from the fog waxing and waning�OM WILL NOT GET THE GOODS.

So am I supposed to beat it into DH�s head why he should DETEST me�or do I make my marriage the best it can be from here forward?


Yes, I am getting a free pass (from DH). Not from you�and not from me.

In fact, DH gave me a free pass to have the EA because half the stuff happened in front of him and he doesn�t even care.


Okay. I know you all have spent so many posts trying to get this NC into my thick skull. I keep thinking due to DH�s response (and this one little event I have to get through)�but okay. smh.


Okay.


Okay, I�m just afraid of the consequences� I might be imagining it worse than anything DH would do, anyway. DH obviously doesn�t want to lose me�and wouldn�t do anything to lose me�
Thank you, Vibrissa.

The difference here, of course, being that all this sex occurred BEFORE marriage. This isn't a valid analogy. The man in this situation went INTO the marriage accepting this about his wife. Your husband did not go into the marriage being ok with you cheating on him.

I know he doesn't see it that way, but that's what it is.

The goal isn't to make your husband detest you. The goal is to recover your marriage. The ONLY way to do that is NC. Nothing should excuse contact, not even your husband's lack of acknowledgement on the issue.


I understand that, but really that ship has sailed. The fallout from this is already set in motion because you've already ACTED inappropriately. NC isn't going to keep the fallout from coming (if it ever does). NOT going NC has even more dire consequences. So just go NC.

FM,
I don't get why you think your BH is giving you a free pass. Granted he may not be acknowledging the situation between you and OM but do you really think that because of that he is giving you a "free pass"? IMO I don't believe that for a second. For whatever reason you BH is burying his head. Maybe it's because he can't or won't believe that you or his bf could betray him, but it's doubtful it's a "free pass" from him.
L4S

Fullmoon, you said this to Tully about her WH's OW:



You could say the same thing to your BH about your OM:

I was thinking the same thing, pm.

fm, I think the presentation is key. Maybe you could bring up the subject in the context of larger life plans (e.g., having kids, career goals, etc. - happy, rosy visions of where you guys want to be), and then tell your H you are concerned, though, about the influences you two are welcoming into that life.

Or that you have been thinking a lot lately about M and what it means to you, and how you want nothing more than to have a happy, fulfilling M with your H. And, in order to do that, you need his help strengthening your relationship, fortifying those bonds, etc.

Or you could go along the lines of what tully's (I think it was tully) child said, about how when someone is not listening to them it means they don't matter. Maybe start with an apology for bringing up a sensitive subject, but you really need your H's help in addressing this. And when he doesn't seem to be taking it seriously (avoid DJs here!), it makes you feel less valued - almost to the point where your discomfort and concern take a backseat to his friendship with OM.

If he starts to shut down the convers'n, maybe pull out (physically or just in your head) a list like you gave us, detailing without room for misunderstanding the various compromising situations OM has broached.

I don't know, just some thoughts. I would definitely defer to the vets.

Of course!! If he wants to go he can go. You are not his momma. He is a grown man who can go whereever he chooses.

What matters is that YOU DON'T GO. If you are serious about protecting your marriage, that is what you do. *YOU* make sure that you do not see the OM again. Seeing the OM will cause more harm than your husband's "upset."

Just because he fails to see the danger, does not mean that you don't. And it does not absolve you of your responsibility to affair proof your marriage.

I have a real clever, cute way of presenting it to your husband:


"dear, I won't be going to the wedding because the OM is there."

simple! We don't need a bunch of long winded tomes to make a simple, easy statement.

OMG! Guess what just happened? I just received news that I have to fly out of town for an emergency for work on the evening before the wedding. I won't be back in time to attend the wedding.

Guess you dodged that bullet. Now you can wait to tell your DH the truth about why you can't go the NEXT TIME an event comes up. Being 100% honest is ALWAYS the best policy. Oh, but you don't have to worry about that now.

Meggy, I already told DH before why I didn�t want to go. I was already honest. DH said that we�re going (regardless of my honesty).

Isn�t the important thing here that I�m not going�rather than me telling DH the same hurtful stuff over and over again?!

Hello fullmoon,

The OM in my wife's affair was my own brother...

After trying MC after MC we finally found success by following the MB concepts...

We are only one of the MANY success stories here that have followed the MB concept of no contact...

There are MANY failures here that thought a LITTLE contact would be alright and regretted it later...

The ONE attempt at contact was my cousin's H funeral...

and it was a DISASTER!!!

My ex-brother used it to try to make contact...

It triggered me by JUST BEING AROUND HIM...

It triggered Mrs.Flint because of her guilt...

My ex-brother couldn't take the rejection by Mrs.Flint and increased his efforts...

THE WHOLE EVENT TURNED INTO WATCHING EACH OTHER REACTIONS WHEN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON THE FAMILY OF MY COUSIN.

And so it will be with EVERY EVENT you try to attend with your H's ex-friend.

Because even though your H doesn't know it yet -friends don't hit on their friends wives...

Your H WILL be watching you around his former friend even though his pride denies it to you...

And YOU will spend the entire time trying to look anyhere but at his former friend and it will be obvious to your H AND to everyone else including the "friend"...

YOU know the truth even though your H can't see it yet.

Consider this analogy...

You are driving your car and your H is beside you and tells you it is clear to cross the train tracks but you have a better view at this time (MB) and can clearly see the train coming...

If you love your H YOU have to protect your M until he can see as well as you can.

God bless.

Jim

fullmoon-

Did you ever have to read "Othello" in high school or college?

When tuff said this: the thought that came to my mind was that of Iago-Othello's "best friend". (Sorry, I'm an English teacher...Shakespeare analogies are part of the profession ).

Iago is considered one of the worst villains in all of English literature for good reason.

I think if you shared with your DH the OM's behavior towards you, he might think very differently about the whole situation. Just because you got a reprieve for this situation, it doesn't mean you won't have to face this again.

Let your DH know the truth about the OM's behavior towards you. He deserves to know that he has an "Iago" in his life.

T/J

I love English teachers. How perfect!

I just read 15+ pages of this thread, it does not seem like you have made little MB progress.

No, these men do not have control over you... you hand it to them.

Reality check. This is not a fantasy/romance novel of clandestine love, this is your real life and M. Do what any wife worth 0.05 would do and shut.the.OM.out.

First you must shut the OM to your thoughts. Then tell your H how and why you feel this way, it should not have taken 15 pages for you to get a plan. If you can not do this, call the phone coaching center, they will help you come up with a solid plan.

It almost seems you love the drama, because I see little improvement in your action plan. But, that is just my opinion.

After 30 pages, a "lucky out of town trip" solved the issue?
you are going to have to garner more control than this if you want a long term M. That was NO problem resolution, that was problem avoidance.

I don't know if I am the only other poster who is reading this into your thread, and I will be the "meanie" if I have to, but you have great posters coaching you, do not waste their time.

Sounds about right to me�when my brain is firing properly. I couldn�t ALLOW myself to accept that before when I was under the influence of��infatuation�. That one post about how the brain functions, all those things, I don�t know why that matters so much�but it just makes it so clear.


High school?!?! I can�t even remember grad school and that was at least within the new millennium.



I might need to check it out, again.


I know I kinda lucked out with this job thing. I was so relieved when I was asked to make the trip: I don�t have to deal with explaining myself to DH, then fighting over my explanation�and I don�t have to deal with my mind going back and forth about NC, seeing OM, behaving myself if I have to see OM. Thank God. I have hardly ever been so agreeable to doing extra work. *lol*


I know that now that I �dodged the bullet�, it seems like I have time to relax. And breathe. But I need to stay on task. I have to get DH to hear/LISTEN to what has occurred, get DH to see OM for who he is, and allow DH to grow emotionally (so he won�t leave me in 10 years when he is due a MLC and just decides he doesn�t love me anymore). Oh brother�

I have to go to the gym.

last year I had a problem with wasps. They were everywhere in our yard being attracted to our rose bushes and tall weeds. The kids couldn't go outside, and I couldn't do yard work. I put a few traps around, but I didn't go through extreme measures to get rid of the source of the problem, the thing that was attracting the wasps.

After a couple of stings, which were uncomfortable, but not unbearable. I figured that it was better to go through extreme precautions to protect me and my family. I dug up 5 large rose bushes, set out dozens of traps, armed myself with wasp spray, and covered up all those weedy areas with bark.

Now we can go out into our yard whenever we want. If a wasp nest pops up it is easier to take care of because there are less wasps in general, and they are easier to spot.

Treat that OM like a wasp. Get rid of whatever it is that is attracting him to you and you to him. Especially contact! Go through extrodinary feats to make sure he is not around you, and be prepared for those times when he tries to lure you in. Freak! If your crazy enough try to think of him as a wasp flying around in your skull that you need to snuff out! Get control of your yard or you will lose it.

Horray for lame wasp analogy!!!

^Great analogy babe!!

's WHEELS!!

Fullmoon,
Sorry for the T/J but...

Is your H loyal to a fault and sometimes doesn't show a good sence of self preservation?

I'm curious where our simalarities end...because reading your thread is like a Twilight Zone episode!

Oh yea, Johnstwin 100% hit the nail n the head with her reference to "lago"

What is T/J? Anyway�

I don�t know about DH�s �loyalty�. I can�t think of anything bad about him�so I guess he is loyal.

I know if he would have told me the things I have told him, it would have turned out completely different. I would have told him to go be with ****. It would have taken us months of slow drawn-out recovery if we could recover. Da*n, the MB�I�d be furious. I think I�d be more upset about him being �in love� than any casual fling he might have (this I take from previous experience with such issues).

That�s why I am afraid to KEEP pushing him.

Twilight Zone, slasher movie(s), oncoming trains, snakes, and bees! Good grief! Okay, I was taking DH�s doubt and questioning whether I was overreacting to the situation with OM�but you all are�making it even worse than I thought.

T/J Thread Jack. A move away from the topic for hopefully a brief exchange :-)

Thank you kindly, DWG! I am going to go use that on someone's thread right now. T/J...

Fullmoon - I'd say your OM is a real piece of work. If what he was on the inside showed on the outside he'd be a pretty ugly human being.

The best way to break your addiction to him is to start SEEING the stuff you minimize and explain away. He's said these things to his best friend's wife, IN FRONT of his best friend. He knows his best friend takes certain things for granted and is enjoying the challenge of you with an audience.

I think that you need to start having a "couples time" plan in your back pocket every time OM inserts himself into your marriage with a concert invite or something else.

"Oh Hon! I'm sorry we can't go. I've been planning a surprise and I can't let my plans cancel. Send our regrets, will you?"

And I think sending the message to him that you think he's scum and you want nothing to do with him - he's not welcome in your home ever again would be a really healthy thing to do.

Fullmoon,

FYI. It is not the number of posts that make one a vet on this forum. It is the understanding and application of the MB principles. Posting 900 times with the same kind of content that you have on other people's threads will not get you there. It is clear that you either do not know or do not agree with MB concepts.

AM

Thank you, Kayla, for your suggestion.

Monday, Barbie concluded that I am �wasting people�s time�
(again)�most likely to annoy me (a very common tactic utilized around here)�so I thought I�d take some time to just THINK about all of these posts.

I�ve heard the things about Lago, bees, snake, Twilight Zone, slasher movie�I have no room for rationalization. The fact that DH allowed this to go on, helped �green light� my freedom to enjoy it. I didn�t expect it to become too much for me to handle. I didn�t expect that a little �harmless� flirtation and conversation could lead me to wanting more. I know better now. And he�s cut off from me.

Last night, DH and I got into a brief conversation about �flirting� and �cheating�, etc. (to his dismay). He is SO UPSET about me being on this website and people �putting these ideas in [my] head�. In any case, he did say that he does not want me flirting with anyone, claims he doesn�t flirt (of course, he doesn�t define certain flirtatious actions as �flirting�), and STILL the only thing he asks of me is not to SF with anyone else. So the �flirtatious� things that OM was doing, that DH was allowing, DH doesn�t even define those things as flirting. That�s one of the problems. It is perfectly acceptable behavior on both OM and my part. To him. DH asked, �So can I go to the store and leave you alone with OM now?� FYI: he ended up walking out of the room on me at the end of the convo...as he repeatedly said he does not want to hear this.

Anyway, I know how the behavior made me FEEL, though, so it is unacceptable to me.

I will use your advice (and others) to sway DH from his Lago. A direct approach will not cut it. I�m fine with this. I can handle this now.

One useful thing Barbie managed to get out is that �No!� these men do not have control over me just what I hand them. This makes sense. I have CHOSEN to give them power over me because I love them. And I CHOOSE to take that away from OM. I feel MUCH stronger here than 06/29.

I appreciate your words of encouragement.

fm, what's going on? You're posting words of contrition here on your own thread, yet you're getting edited by the mods on other threads for violation of the terms of service, name-calling, and general disrespect.

What gives?

Please remember that no one here knows you from Tom, Bob*, Harry, or Jane. No one knows you IRL, no one has any ulterior motives from you IRL. The only thing the people posting to you want is the chance for you to have a healthy M. People don't get off on yelling at WS's, people don't just sit at the computer all day waiting for their moment to pounce. These are individuals whose own recoverys come first, who have busy and full lives outside of the MB discussion boards, and they are taking their time, their energy, their mental and emotional resources to post to you.

In the hopes that you will get it.

In JL's words: please think about this.

Oh, no. I did not say you were wasting anyones time. I said you were getting great advice, and after dozens of pages, did not seem to be taking any of the advice.

MB is active participation. Participation by (at first) you, no one can prevent or hinder this recovery. You are addicted to another man outside of your M.

That is not your H's fault, not even the OM's fault. It needs and can only be addressed by you.

You are addicted. Addicts need a plan. my 0.02.

And, again. It does not matter if your H likes, ignores, cares or wants to deal with this problem...right now.

The actions being taken that are putting your M at risk are going on inside you. You must squash the thoughts about the OM. Your H could not do this even if he wants to.

We all want you to be happy. No one here is posting to ruin your day. What I see is you fighting the very concepts that are crucial to protect your M.

MB is not the problem, it is the solution.

Your husband is either stupid or blissfully naive. His thoughts on marriage and the world are extremely short-sighted.

If he thinks we are poisoning you, why don't you invite him on here to "set us straight."

I can see why your marriage is having problems. First of all, your WH believes in very limited marital boundaries. He thinks you should just have the willpower to avoid affairs. He has no clue how hard it is to stop yourself once you have started going down that slippery slope. Most people don't until it's already happened. Then they just start rationalizing it away.

Also, your H does a piss-poor job of engaging in REAL conversation with you, listening to you, and putting himself in your shoes. He doesn't want to have to deal with your thoughts and feelings. He wants you to handle that by yourself. That is where OM got his window. You started talking to him about all the stuff your H just doesn't care to do. Your H has piss-poor communication skills.

Your husband is also extremely dismissive if your thoughts and feelings. He needs to believe you. If you tell him that OM was hitting on you and trying to get in your pants, your WH should believe you. The fact that he doesn't I'm sure concerns you that he doesn't really care all that much about you. I'm sure his attitude on boundaries and marriage concern you that he might cheat if he puts himself in the wrong situation.

Your marriage will continue to deteriorate if you don't address these issues. If you don't cheat, you will withdraw and he might cheat. Avoiding conflict in marriage is not the way to a happy marriage which is what your WH believes. He is not willing to do the WORK that is required in marriage. He just wants to keep his marriage care and maintenance free like it has been up to this point. Well marriages are like cares in that they all are fine when they are new, but if you don't maintain them properly, even the good ones will start to break down.

Why don't you ask your husband why he doesn't take you seriously? You are obviously having problems and he doesn't even want to deal with it.

fm, Jim just did a solid job of summing up why folks on the boards here are all over you about your choices, your thinking, your M - there are a lot of concerning factors, and you are in a position now to steer your M in a great direction before something disastrous happens.

FM:

This stuff is tuff.

Work on you.

MB isn't a cult. But it does have a mindset. And once you start to realize how much of it applies in ALL areas of your life, the better off you are.

You are recognizing the OM for what he is. That is the change in you since 6/29.

Your Husband doesn't see this, and may not. That is not your problem. That is NOT something that you can cure.

You can, however make plans with your H to spend ample time with him, so that YOUR M gets better.

Your Husband MAY make a choice in the future to cheat. And no matter WHAT you do, he can still make this choice. We can NOT predict the future. If YOU do the right things for your marraie, and protect your boundaries, and modify your behaviors to spend more time with your H, than you will make the window that your H may crawl thru much smaller.

So, continue working on yourself. Your going in the right direction.

LG

Yes, I agree. With (all of) your help I am doing better.


One of the ENs that Dr. Harley discusses is �communication�. This involves my speaking as well as listening to DH. No, he is not listening to me because (I assume) it�s easier for him that way. I see that.

I am here to save, preserve, maintain my marriage. I am NOT going to blindly follow MB principles right to divorce court. (I see quite a few people doing it.) DH can�t even listen to me talk about this with him in private, yet you insist that I send an NC letter to this OM, this will undoubtedly spread around DH�s job� Do you seriously think this is not going to cause DH a need to block it out/block me out? You see that he is good at blocking things out. Obviously, this would be an ill-advised strategy for me.

I need a plan, yes, Barbie. BUT I NEED my husband for whatever reason (because I choose to love him and I choose to need him). Sure, I�ll survive without him�probably won�t be as happy. But I am not going to risk losing DH trying to implement a plan�that many have implemented and STILL gotten divorced. I love much of what I have learned about MB; I have nothing bad to say about it.

BUT, I think some of you are failing to recognize that the plans need to be appropriately applied to fit the unique circumstances of each unique situation.

And another thing�you should ALL be writing to these new waywards with some respect, lifting them up, keeping them around to be healed, for their spouses and families to heal�IF you are going to be here �claiming� to want to help. I am embarrassed with how some of you write to them.

I want you all to be happy, too. I am so sorry for what the BSs have been through�but that IN NO WAY exonerates this rude unacceptable behavior of theirs. Not at all.

I know it is tuff, LG. It is getting easier every day. I am working on me. Thank you for the support.

It bothers me to see someone (like SW) getting beat up with no empathy�she came here for help. Yes, deliver 2x4s within reason�not to within an inch of her life. We should all be taking her depression concerns seriously. We should gladly take the opportunity to lift someone from this place�rather than sending her further into her he77.



Sometimes it seems like it.


The fact that it �[has] a mindset� doesn�t make it right to psychologically abuse people.


Okay, I�ll spend today trying to think of this plan you and Barbie are mentioning�


Well, I sure hope so.

Thanks, LG.

The basis of Marriage Builders and Dr Harley's Love Bank model is that just about everything we do affects our spouse either positively or negatively.

MB strives to maximize the positive and minimize the negative. Those things that have positive emotional consequences build and enhance feelings of being in love. Those things that cause or reinforce negative emotional responses result in lost feeling of being in love.

ENs, EPs, Love Busters, UA time, POJA and even boundaries as applied to protecting the marriage all flow from this one single premise.

Love can be built up and it can be destroyed.

Failure to protect oneself from falling in love with someone from outside the marriage damages the marriage in ways that can only be seen once the damage has been done. Actually falling in love with someone else damages the intimacy between husband and wife even if no sex ever takes place. If nothing else, it divides the intimacy and emotional commitment that is needed to keep the marriage strong. Anything that weakens it is bad for the health of the marriage.

FM, you can't make your husband understand this if he doesn't see it. My guess is that he has himself had some emotional response to someone else at some point and so has chosen to define cheating as having sex rather than as falling in love outside of marriage. That is only a guess, BTW and not something to take to the bank, but it might explain his reluctance to admit that attraction to people outside the marriage is something to be avoided.

The problem with not protecting against emotional involvement outside of marriage is that once begun this is a very hard thing to simply set aside and return to the marriage the way it was before. The emotional toll of just denying the feelings actually reinforces them because of the addictive nature of the feelings themselves and the association with the other person. Once the person becomes the source of those feelings and not simply what they do, the desire to continue those feelings is redirected to seeking out the person. You are experiencing this first hand.

Since your husband is not here, we can't tell him what to do and we can't tell you what to tell him to change his thinking on this. Unfortunately it is something he may only discover to be true when it is too late. But you CAN address the problem from your side of the fence all by yourself. It won't be an easy fix, but you can choose to defend your marriage and protect yourself from heading down the road that can lead to full blown physical adultery in spite of what your husband thinks or believes.

Yes, it will be a struggle and it will take some time, but you can overcome your infatuation with OM.

But others have already pointed out that OM is not really such a great guy. Great guys and good friends don't even try to seduce friend's wives. Predators do that, but friends do not. Your husband might not see this friend's actions as flirting or trying to seduce you away from him, but you have interpreted them as such and so the problem is still real and it has effected your marriage. You came here with a problem and that problem was related to your feelings for OM. You can choose to not go down that road or to follow your feelings which will eventually destroy your marriage.

What your husband does, or does not do or think, has no bearing on what you choose to do. This is one of the hardest lessons there is for many WSs to learn. What one spouse does or does not do in no way forces the hand of the other spouse to cheat or not cheat. It can set the table to make it possible and provide a vulnerability to it; it can set up the conditions that make an affair possible, but the choice is still in the domain of the potential betrayer to cheat or not.

Imagine that you find out that there is a beautiful flower growing in the middle of the road. You run across it by accident but once you see it, it brings you much joy and happiness. You begin to long to see it again and soon you allow yourself short trips into the place where it grows in order to soak up the joy that it brings you.

The problem with this flower is that it is growing in the middle of a busy highway and the only way to get a good look is for you to go out into traffic and lay on the ground to get a really good look at it. It brings you so much happiness just to see it that you begin to take chances just to get close enough to see it. At first you drive by it daily and are satisfied with just a glimpse but then one day you stop your car and take a closer look.

Soon you want to see even more of it's beauty and so you run out onto the road and look closer. You time your run so that you avoid the traffic. But the closer you get, the more it intrigues you and the fact that it is in a place where you can't really look at it close enough drives you to take ever bigger chances with your life.

One day you decide that you can just take the flower yourself, but you know that if you pick it, it will die and so you come up with an idea for transplanting it to a place where it will become your own.

You dart into traffic, digging frantically in order to free it from the pavement with enough of it left to move to a safe place. As you dig you keep one eye on traffic and move just before it runs you over. Since the drivers coming toward you don't see you until the last second, they really can't do much to avoid you, since there is a heavy fog that seems to linger in this place. They don't know you will be there and so they have no way to know that they need to be on guard in order to avoid your being run over.

You have nearly gotten the flower free and only a few seconds remain until it is yours. One final trip is all it will take and now your entire focus on this last attempt to get the flower for your very own garden. You don't hear the truck coming and you don't see the headlights because you aren't looking at traffic any more. The driver doesn't know you are in the middle of the road and can't protect you from being run over because his view of the road is limited by the fog he is driving in.

And then, as you free the flower from the crack in the road, taking it finally to be your own and knowing that you can enjoy it for the rest of your life, the truck arrives and your life is over...

And as you read all of this, you KNEW where it was going...

This is how affairs develop. Unless you choose to NOT take trips to see that flower and do something to move away from the addictive quality of what you have begun to find beautiful, the truck will arrive right on schedule and you will be run over.

You can still decide to stop looking for the flower. In fact, you can still decide to nurture a flower that is already your own, that already grows in the garden that is yours. It has lost some of its beauty due to neglect and lack of care and it might require some pruning to get back to what it was when it was first planted, but it can be even more beautiful and valuable to you because it is already yours and what you do with it will determine if it blossoms or withers away. If you keep looking for a way to gain that other flower, the ones you already own will be lost due to neglect and lack of care.

If you ever did get that flower dug out and got it to your own garden you would find that it couldn't be kept in the place you wanted it to be. It would still lure others to look at it and desire it and to make its beauty there own and some day, you would find that another had dug it up after you had transplanted it and it would be gone.

Or you would find that it required so much effort to sustain in the environment where it was never intended to grow and no matter how much effort you put in it was never going to be enough.

And all the while, the rest of your garden fell into disrepair, the weeds overtook the flower you already had and choked the life out of it until there was nothing left but decay and loss of its beauty.

Love and flowers can both be beautiful or they can be deadly. Where you find each is what determines which they will be.

Mark

I don't think that is correct. "Conversation" is on Dr Harley's list.

Speaking and listening are at the heart of getting ENs met, learning how to meet your spouse's, elimination LBs etc, but it isn't in itself an EN.

Okay, I am trying to consider these last few posts. Thank you.

Thank you, Mark, as always. Reading your posts makes me feel like I went to meditation or something.

Disclaimer: If you intend to be *harsh* to get your point across, it's going to be counterproductive. You'll be pleased to know that I have been contacted by the moderators... But, if you want me to be expelled, you know what to do...'cause I'm not going to just take it. I rather go out with a bang. Barbie has accurately picked up on my flair for drama.

I am not intending to hurt BSs or take up for WSs...in that other case, it just seemed like someone needed to say *something* (again). As LG stated, I should work on me. He's correct.

BUT if people come here implying that I am here to waste everyone's time, then I think I should stop wasting your time on me and post on other threads. Apparently, you want me to stay put...so PLEASE, I ask you kindly, don't bring that to my thread.

I stand corrected. It is conversation. Thanks, Cane.

Jim said:
"I can see why your marriage is having problems. First of all, your WH believes in very limited marital boundaries. He thinks you should just have the willpower to avoid affairs. He has no clue how hard it is to stop yourself once you have started going down that slippery slope. Most people don't until it's already happened. Then they just start rationalizing it away."

OMG- that is exactly my fear!! I knew all about MB principles prior to my selfish decisions!! But I chose to not protect my marriage by not establishing boundaries for my situation. Until you're there, you don't have a clue how easily it is. If you've read my thread at all- you'd my situation only took minutes before I crossed the line. Yes- it may not have been my DH line, at least b4 this, but it is a line I will not cross again! I can't change my H's pov on this- I can only let him know that I came dangerously close to so much worse and that if I allow that soft boundary, I could easily cross that line and my marriage would be over!

PKB

Now that's a great attitude!

No one WANTS to get you "expelled" ( ), but when you go around insulting BSs and offering wayward "advice", you WILL be called on it. But it's not just you, it's anyone who does it. How else does the MB message stay on track? A newbie could read an anti-MB post from you and think they're actually getting good MB advice. Of course, it'll be challenged.

FM, someday if you ever have to deal with the PAIN of betrayal by your spouse in your own marriage, you might just duck your head in shame for the way you've treated some people here at MB. But 'cha know what? We forgive you. We just won't let obviously bad advice go unchallenged.

BTW: 900 posts doesn't make you a vet..

Let me be VERY CLEAR here. The fact that D happens, and that many here are experiencing it or look like they are headed for it, is in no way a result of the plans here as you see it. It is a direct result of betrayal.

When D happens, it is because the BS is saying they will no longer stand to be terrorized by an unrepentant wayward, usually actively involved in an affair. They have no love left for the creature their spouse - the person who was supposed to love, cherish, and protect them - has become. It is in the best interests of the BS and the children where applicable to D.

The plans here do not inevitably lead to D, as you imply. Moreover, those who follow the plans here and still end up D'd will tell you - I would almost guarantee this - that they are better off than ever before. They have more self-respect, more integrity, more self-awareness. They tried, when no one required it of them, to salvage what many offhandedly dismiss as unsalvageable.


Loving what you have learned versus understanding and implementing it = two very different things. Do you love the warm fuzzy idea of it in theory? Yet, in practice, it's too hard or uncomfortable for you? If you loved what you've learned and had nothing bad to say about it, I would expect vastly different posts from you - not the posts where you attack the betrayed spouse, where you dictate that everyone has a choice about how they behave, where you minimize the very real pain of the most intimate violation of trust. Right now, all your posts show are a foggy, narrow-minded, self-centered, and unempathetic person ... A person in a M that has all of the signs of needing you to step up and safeguard it.


But fm, in all of your time and reading here, have you not realized that ALL INFIDELITY IS THE SAME? There's a reason why the "script" is used so frequently.

FTR, that comment of yours about unique situations is straight from the script.


fm, you are actually quite lucky. Some of the more "rude" posters have NOT posted to you, nor to any of the other recent WW arrivals. Frankly, for the most part, I see posters wanting to help, calling BS when they see it, and WSs getting a broad spectrum of approaches - all w/ recovery at the heart of them - to reach them, to help them get it, to pull them out of the hole they've dug for themselves.

What's with the seeming regression, fm? Or was the putative progress just contrived?

Hahahahahahaha Meggy! Alright, fine.

But it is beyond me, Meggy, how it is so wrong for me to empathize with a depressed disillusioned hurt individual. Alright�for analogy�s sake: suppose we call a �wayward� a dog rather than a pig. (Just go with me for a moment here.) Suppose that dog bit its master, Johnny.

A couple weeks later I see the dog laying in the street, yelping for help; it had run in the street and gotten hit by a car. It�s bruised and bleeding�like Johnny was a couple weeks ago. Am I going to take the dog to the vet or run it over a couple more times for its prior demonstration of poor behavior? Just a thought.



I was not trying to insult them. I do have a valid point every now and then�but you won�t even consider it.

I don�t have a problem with MB advice�just the way it is delivered at times. I truly don�t want the newbies to get the wrong advice.

Okay, I am going to say this; I was trying to avoid it but I hope it helps you understand that I have some understanding of their (BS) position. When DH and I were dating, BEFORE he became DH, we had issues with the whole virginity thing. He wanted it and I was holding on for dear life. So, on my birthday weekend, we �mutually� agreed to split up (meaning he said sleep with me right now or it�s over and I�m going to sleep with someone else. At that time, I did not sleep with him.) ON my birthday, two days later, he slept with another woman�an ex-girlfriend. DH called me a few days later as if nothing happened, claimed that he didn�t recall breaking up with me, trying to simply move on. He NEVER said happy birthday for that year�TO THIS DAY. He, of course, did not voluntarily reveal this info. to me; I badgered him until he confessed.

It�s not exactly the same as the BS in that we did have a breakup conversation�like many others we had before that. And I had never slept with him prior to his betrayal. But, in large part, it is the same thing. He didn�t even consider us broken up when he acted. Of course, he had no remorse because (as you know) DH just blocks out stuff. Besides, it was my fault for not giving him what he wanted. I was a teenager then who never had a boyfriend before: MORE young, MORE na�ve than I am now.

It took me feeling pressured disrespectfully out of my virginity, 2 � years of looking over my shoulders, spying, checking his email, phone messages, and all other kinds of stuff�until I realized I wasn�t getting rid of DH�to get over it. But when I decided that it was pointless to behave the way I was behaving (since he was here to stay), when I decided I didn�t care anymore�I managed to get over it. I have no feelings on the issue anymore. I don�t even know HOW we ended up together�except I thought I loved him. He is a different man than he was when we met; so I am glad that I stuck it out.

But it really hurt like he77 back then. If someone were to treat me like that today, as you see, I get all �up in arms� about �disrespect�. I am not trying to hurt BS; I know many BSs. I am just trying to say that �no matter how much you�ve been hurt, it doesn�t excuse your own rude behavior.�

**edit**

moderators note: if you have an issue with a post that violates TOS, please click on the "notify" button and let the moderators handle it. But do not continue to disrupt by complaining about other posters. Let the moderators moderate this forum!

I did not say that all of the plans inevitably lead to D (which I am sure you are aware). Some of it, obviously, is not working for some people.

Clearly, some aspects of MB I have implemented; some I have not yet. We all see that I am working with a fairly unique situation in DH�s responses to the whole thing. I am trying to act accordingly.

My husband is happy, okay�happy with me and completely oblivious to any EA�even though I have talked and talked and talked to him. I am trying to work within the parameters of my situation.

I am not minimizing it. I do not agree that it must drive one's life from that moment forth�perhaps for some people, it must, they cannot escape. ??? I mean that as encouragement to the BS; I do not mean that in any malicious sort of way. I know BSs who have escaped. And whether they do escape it or not, it does not justify wrongful behavior.

I appreciate those who have provided constructive criticism and helpful advice. I have never said otherwise. I show my manners and respect (unlike some people). So now posters know what works with me and what doesn�t�don�t come to me from the harsh/rude/disrespectful side of the spectrum. It�s counterproductive and leads nowhere but to hurt feelings on both sides and dismay. I�m not doing it intentionally just honestly expressing how I feel�JUST LIKE everyone else.

You said:

Now, do you mean I am aware that all plans don't lead to D based on my own situation? Or am I aware that you did not say such a thing? Your blanket statements above, from a semi-rant that comes across very much as conviction driven by emotion, suggest otherwise.


Are the plans not working, or are the parameters of the infidelity the problem? Perhaps the plans aren't working for these individuals because they have a particularly unrepentant wayward, they are not cut from cloth that absorbs and handles betrayal, their extenuating circumstances make the plans an even greater feat in the face of adultery... But wherein are the plans to fault for that? It's the infidelity. That's the nature of the beast.


This is true. However, it is no reason to not adopt all of the plans/concepts. There's a saying here, if you're betting on a horserace, you would presumably bet on the fastest horse. Well, MB is that fastest horse. Your DH's choices are his own. Yours are your own. He's not stopping you from embracing MB.

I'm not proselytizing MB to you. I'm trying to 1) point out you're responsible for your own decisions (so saying your DH isn't on board won't fly), and 2) your ire at MB earlier suggests a dissonance in your embracing of MB here and your true feelings.

2 things. 1: the magnitude of infidelity is such that it does define your life from here on out. 2: your advice comes across as lacking empathy and understanding of just how grave such betrayal is. It effectively says "Get over it."

Now, with regards to the WS: I'm not saying the infidelity is a scarlet letter forevermore, but it does and should continue to drive the FWS to never get close to their alien wayward version again. It does and should continue to drive them to earn their BSs forgiveness. It does and should continue to drive them to strive for what is right and good, to be a better person.

It does not define them, but it does motivate them.

With regards to the BS: ask any BS here, and I guarantee you they will say infidelity is NOT something you just "get over." You don't blink and it's all better, and you live daily - for the rest of your life - with the firsthand knowledge of being so closely betrayed, disillusioned, beaten down.

I can see where you say it's a choice how the BS decides to go forward after betrayal. However, there are a myriad of very real emotions that must be processed, and that simply takes time and understanding.


That part in red? That's a blatant untruth, and you know it. Don't falsely build yourself up to make others look bad, or to feel better about yourself. Just be honest with yourself. It will get you much further.

fm, what would you have done if no one was harsh with you? If we all just coddled you with our bestest pair of kid gloves, held your hand as you pined for OM, cheered you on for your posts to other incredibly foggy WWs that served to not break them free of their addiction, but to instead fuel it?

Would you understand with half the degree you do now the severity of infidelity? Or would it be "not that bad"?

Again, I would argue that people have been real with you, not overtly rude or mean-spirited. Also again, nobody is keeping score here, nobody is tallying how many beatdowns they've handed out in a day. We care about marriage building, plain and simple.

You feel attacked when no attack is intended. In my experience, when I have felt that way, it means I was being self-deceptive and foggy. I sat down and figured out why posts bothered me, and I adjusted my thinking accordingly. Lose the pride, take a chance to really see where everyone else is coming from.

A note to make sure my edit above was not missed:

If you have an issue with a post that violates TOS, please click on the "notify" button and let the moderators handle it. But do not continue to disrupt by complaining about other posters. Let the moderators moderate this forum!

thank you

fm,

I stopped posting a while ago here because I felt that you were not listening to me. That's fine, you have the right to do that, no problem, but I spent hours and hours on this thread because I felt a lot of similarities with my situation.
Therefore when barbiecat posted her comment that you were ignoring advice and remaining in a defensive, wayward mentality, I agreed silently with her because that is exactly how I felt but I didn't bother commenting because if you don't want to listen to me, fine, but I'll stop talking and spend my time more usefully elsewhere.

I just want to state one thing. I am one of those who is divorcing having applied MB principles to an A and I can absolutely say with certainty that they did not lead me to D. The reason I ended up there is because WH refused to give up his A. However, applying MB principles through Plan A (10 weeks) and then Plan B (4 months) helped me hugely and I would say was a big success for me. The advantages of the system for me were that it showed WH what his A would cost him and it helped me to feel good about myself that I really tried everything within my power to save my M. I can now walk away without regret and I really don't think I would have been able to do that without MB.
Also lots of people slapped me around at the beginning (see my original thread if you want to see that) when I couldn't see or think clearly and now I thank them for that. Caring for someone means telling them what it good for them even if that's not what they want to hear. People cared for me here and supported me through a horrific time in my life and for that I will be eternally grateful. barbiecat was one of those people but she and others didn't just support me by patting me on the shoulder and saying 'there, there'. They gave me real direction and a plan to follow so that I could recover peace and well-being and I think I would have had a good chance of recovering my M if WH had been a bit more emotionally aware.

As far as I can see, you have 2 choices, you can deal with the issues in your M or you can follow your DH lead and suppress them out of existence. It looks like you want to choose the second path and if that's what you want to do, go ahead but then I think MB principles won't be very useful. If you do decide to take the first option then you will find much that is useful here in MB but you might like to consider applying a little humility first.

my only buddy, Tully


hehehehehe.

Fullmoon. I do not post much anymore. Because I find that other people can usually say it better.
The only reason I posted was becase I read 15+ pages of reasoning with seemingly little movement in your FOG, (so to speak)

Tully, Mark and Ms. V (off the top of my head) are giving fabulous arguments as to how MB can help you.

fm - thought I'd pull this over here in case you didn't see it. Original here.