So as not to threadjack from another thread:


BW - please don't fall for this. These men are not blind, deaf or dumb. They are responding to exactly the signals that the she-wolf is sending out and they are well aware of this.

Just because some men play stupid does not mean they are. It just means they are trying to misdirect you so you won't interfere. Sadly, it usually works.

Men instantly know what signals a "damsel in distress" is sending out.

How many times have you seen a man drop everything to rush off and assist a "damsel in distress" who weighs 400 pounds and looks like Jabba the Hutt?

Or is it just the attractive damsels that always need *their* innocent help?

Just a coincidence, of course.

Men will stop lyin' when women stop buyin'.

Glad you made a new thread on this. After thinking it over I believe you are right. They would have to be blind, deaf and dumb not to see it. What would be an appropriate response when he pretends to be ignorant of her true motives, when you know that he is just playing stupid to get by with something?

"You are not blind, deaf, dumb or stupid. You know exactly what that woman is trying to do and so do I."

"Let me know when you get one of these who weighs 400 pounds and looks like Jabba The Hutt, but you still can't wait to run off and have everybody see you be HER hero."

"I don't need to be rescued, but I could use a hero, too - and I'd like him to be you. But I require a full-time hero. I'm not about to wait in line for somebody who only wants to be there part-time."

My h was the same way with the "damsel in distress" thing with his OW.

She was building up his ego by "needing" him.

If she is anything like my h's FOW (she was single), she will continue to do so to get what she wants and your h will continue to "eat it up".

This makes me so angry about men in general. MOST MEN will do this no matter where, when, or how even with their wives right there. It makes me so mad at the male gender when i see this happen (on a daily basis).

Guys why do you do that?

You do not see women running to help out an "attractive man".......

Absolutely, the damsel or dumsel(love that one) of distress thing is ABSOLUTELY crazy. Men "fall" for it because they want to be the knight in shining armour. "Dumsels" know what they are doing and the men that fall for it know what they are doing too. They get their big ol' ego stroked, the "dumsel" draws them in and the rest, as they say, is history. We, as women, see it. We recognize the signs. We always hope that our "stupid man" wouldn't fall for this. I looked at myself a little more closely and saw that in some way, I was a damsel in distress when my WH and I first met. He was my knight. At some point, probably around the time I became a mommy, that changed.

I am NOT a weak person, but by not allowing my WH to be my KNIGHT(remember, they watched the fairy tales too) I neglected an EN that OW was able to swoop in and meet. Now, had my WH had better boundaries......we would be having a totally different conversation.

I understand what you are saying. I too no longer acted as though i "needed" my "knight". However i also will say part of the reason that is true is because my "knight" was long gone after being married for so long and it was very difficult to get him to be MY "knight" when i needed one. So i gave up trying, not the right thing to do but happens none the less.

However i happen to know a couple of very attractive women and they use their "attractiveness" to get things from guys ALL THE TIME. They know it and the guys "fall for it" EVERY single time and they PROUDLY admit to it. IMHO there has to be something more to just your spouse meeting your need to be a "knight" because it happens ALL THE TIME.

Yep, its part of our ego and training, a little of both. I was brought up arond strong women, the kind who worked probably more than the men did, but it was spread out farther during the day, but even then sometimes when looking for brute strength and courage,(Like chasing away a thief. or moving a dresser), we were called upon to do more than the 10 hours of hard labor we were built for.

I have had the privelidge of working with mostly women at times during my life, and when asked to do something physical for them, I never made them feel less than capable or less important. I treated the issue as something purely practical. When and if they did the "your so strong" thing I laughed, and if they acted seriuos I laughed harder.

Its a joke to believe that women are not capable, and an insult to them, and to men if they play that game.

But yeah its a game, and men choose to play, and are sometimes critisized when they won't assist some "poor thing", whether she 300 or 120 lbs.


In my generation, with womans lib being a "new" thing, you didn't know whether opening a door was expected, or an insult. You had to do what you thoght was right at the time, and let their opinion fall where it may.

Women who "act" like they "need" you are crippled either by thier upbringing or thier belief they can't do for themselves what most of decent society has supported for them. They need an education, and far be-it for men to give them one, that can be percieved many ways as a double standard, and/or selfish indifferance.

I for one will not leave a women stranded by the roadside when they have a flat tire, but niether do i see myself as "the big strong man". Its not allways thier fault they were not taught to change a tire, and I consider helping them mercy on what they have been taught, along with the roles they have taken. Maybe thier Parents have never prepared them correctly or whatever, but its clear they need help, and its another human being.

For all I know they teach Math or science to children or are a Doctor or off-duty policeman. I just wont take a chance and worry about thier pride, or allow it to swell up mine. Its just practical. What they percieve it as is thier problem to deal with, and society as a whole is to blame.

How many times has the presence of a male figure been nessesary to give a women the atmosphere to be safe? How many creeps have went away when they saw a man around a "seemingly" helpless woman? She might be able to clean his clock more than the man could, but in the creeps head "he is man" and there fore stronger. Perception is what we are dealing with sometimes, and if it prevents trouble, I'm for it.

If a guy wishes to believe he is important and gets flattered easily IMO its because he is weak between the ears. That is how most men are anyway, they need a women to kick thier butt, or at least have God step in to do it. Hopefully thru other men and laws that force them to think. Its really for thier own good.

yeah the opportunity is allways there for the male ego to be flattered. Its the ones short sighted and foolishly drawn in that fall for it. They just don't think of the consequences, or don't care.

I am glad I have allways been afraid of the consequences, but many men I know are addicted to the attention, and it takes them over like a drug. Its an accepted frailty in society, and makes the world go-round for many men. Its to bad they are such suckers.

But the advertisers love it, and the gossip mills thrive from it, the courts profit and we allow ourselves to be driven by our emotions.

I don't see it changing soon, may the buyer beware

HaHa .... so true !

I have a decades long acquaintance I met through my H.
She was a beauty queen, back in the day. And, a "starlet" type actress in the 50's.
(think Elvis movies)
Her beauty was incredible.
She played the damsel in real life over, and over.
She wanted something done for her, she knew she could get it done by just about any man who did not know about her track record.
She is in her 70's now.
Hardly anyone knows that she has been married NINE times.
She never broke up a marriage, to my knowledge.

One time, before we had kids, H and I had a party at our condo, she came.
Our single next-door-neighbour was "taken" by her, as most men were.
We warned him "Do NOT go out with her."
He ignored us.

A week later, he said "She's so beautiful, but she only wants me around to do things for her !"
H and I just started laughing, and of course we said "Told you so. "

Our marriage was also invaded by a DiD (Damsel in Distress)

My H's EA started via phone, when OW called him crying one time because her H had been "so mean" to her.
He told me she called.
I said "Be careful. She should tell her troubles to her best woman friend, not you."

...

Well .....

"I TOLD YOU SO !!!!!"

Even though H could see the starlet as a DiD ... he was not immune to the OW pulling from the same script.

Mulan, this is a book that could practically write it's self!

PS:

And need I say ???

The DiD-OW who trolled my marriage for attention, ENs, whatever ... does NOT resemble Jabba-the-hut.

PP was a ture DiD...

XH thought he had to "save her". He used his power to get her a job with good pay while she was not qualified because she played up to him.

She was helpless, she needed him, she looked up to him and he fell for it hook, line and sinker and she just reeled him in.

Little did he know that now she leads him around by the nose and is the most controlling woman he will ever meet.

You can dress a OW in sheep's clothing but she still is a pig.

My H's OW (his ex-gf) was also a DiD.

She broke up with my H and subsequently married someone 10 years older than her because he made good money. He also turned out to be abusive. You can guess who she turned to to "save" her every time a new incident happened.

I remember one time, she called our house saying that she and her H had had a big fight and he got in the car and tried to drive away, so she jumped in front of it to stop him and fell and hit her head. My H was the first person she thought to call, even though we lived about 45 minutes away from her. Of course, he simply HAD to leave me home alone with 4 little children to run to her rescue. He was gone the rest of the day taking her to the hospital and then getting her settled back at home and helping her out with her kids. Turns out, all she had was a little cut on the head that needed maybe three stitches.

I can't even say how many times she called him because she "needed" him and he dropped everything and went running to her rescue every single time.

BS, you see women running to help out an "attractive man" all the time. How many nurses fall for patients, regardless of their marital status. Or staff who jockey for position to help the boss who is attractive with either power, good looks or maybe both.

How many rush after rock stars. After all, the groupies are not typically men.

So to argue this is a gender based phenomenon is folly. Bad character is a character trait, not a gender trait.

OK all. I need a bit of help on this one. I have just had a long conversation with GM about this. I am pretty pissed because no matter how much I tell him that he KNEW this was inappropriate he pleads innocent.

I got the log of his mail to her last night. He did tell her that because of his behavior in our marriage it is just not appropriate for him to friend a single woman. He was so sorry that she was lonely.

If I had been her and read his replies I would have taken from that exactly what she seemed to take from it. <I would but my bit** of a wife would know and it would be bad for me, sorry> She implied that he was not understanding of her poor lonely state or something like that, none of that is really important because his last email to her was that he could not friend her but he ...get this...LIKES HER VERY MUCH

WHAT?

He does this within 10 minutes of telling me how he did not want to be her friend and that he had been warned about her being a predator. HE LIKES HER VERY MUCH

This follows a month or so ago about him wanting the personal email of a WW here so he could help her off the forum.

He thought he could mentor her.

We have just had a long conversation about how he views himself and how others may view that and exactly how that sits with me. He understands he says but pleads not guilty of knowing what he was doing.

I have long told him that I think EP's are an amazing tool but they are only as good as the person who has to use them. I did not trust him to use them and expected he would break them routinely. This is twice already. Small things? Nope, they are the beginning steps to what sucks him in every single time. ADMIRATION

Mentor my used to be fat a**

Yes GM, I am a bit angry with you. It is not going to kill me but it certainly does not make me feel safe with you. No matter how good things get on this up and down ride the fact remains that until I feel safe there is a ceiling and right now it has been lowered again.

Mulan, I completely agree that men are aware of what these DiDs are doing. KISAs are almost always willing victims, IMO.

Brings to mind one of my most profound and remembered moments of the last decade. Back in 2001, my husband, kids, and I went on a boating picnic with another family. An OW-wannabe came along, as well. She was twice divorced at that time (now it's 3x's). She's a badge bimbo who LOVES hanging out with cops (like my H).

We're all unpacking stuff from our vehicles onto the boat dock...I'm struggling trying to drag big 'ol coolers/chairs/supplies out of the truck. I look around to see why H was not helping, and realize he'd left me there to lug all this crap by myself so he could help the DiD carry A CHAIR. I felt like the biggest schmuck ever.

I don't. I think women are attracted more to powerful men than "pretty" men.


NONE that I met in my career.
They were FAR more likely to fall for a co-worker of HIGHER status.
Like, a physician.
A patient? Not so much.




Are we talking about MATURE women here?
Methinks not.


I disagree.
There are gender differences.
In animal behavior, and human behavior.
Women IN GENERAL are not attracted to weak men.
Not in the animal world either.

This is why the male birds have more colorful plumage and dance in front of the female ... to show off how POWERFUL they are.
Which makes them an attractive potential mate.

To ignore gender differences, is folly.

Ever read about the BPD waif?

Even though I knew the script, I bought it that my late wife was a real-life DiD.

The story gets deep, and she had her real times when she I could trust her. But suffice it to say her beauty did not help her much in this world. She was also incredibly movie-star attractive.

I fell for the ego thing that I was special, and I could help her emotionally. The best thing I did for her was when I stopped accepting her behaviour and let her reap what she had sown. Then she had to deal with truth. I really was nothing but an enabler when I let her get away with " I can't help myself" or what makes me mad, "Its my weakness, the devil made me do it"

I got lonely, and bought the lie, even though I knew better. True after two years and a couple Kids I saw that I had to leave, but I had to return, for the sake of hope and my children.

I feel bad for these women who get so easily drawn in because of how easy it is to manipulate men, but there is my weakness and my foolishness, She never needed me, she needed accoutability. There is true mercy in avoiding the DiD.

So why do Men fall for it so often? I think its because we are responsible for initiation most of the time, and we can't tell the difference at first, and think its real to some extent. We are ready to be the great protector in our head and it feels right. Its the nature of the beast, but we are not animals that act on instinct alone. We shouldn't trust every feeling and act on them. But the temptatio is allways there.

Especially when the DiD happens to fit the fantasy role physically, and in the right time and conditions, our brain stops functioning correctly, maybe temporary, maybe avoided indescretion or improper action, but we are responsible for the result just the same. God help us we make the right choice.

Men are stimulated more with appearance initially gennerally speaking. Its not mandtory that we don't think first before we run off to help the DiD. If she is pretty it becomes painfully obvious that it could cause trouble with our mates. I would ask my wives permission or ask what she wanted me to do before I assisted females because I wanted to respect her and protect my marriage.

Us men are sometimes pretty stupid and callous as we succumb to our instincts.

Scotland, we have had others post here on a similar topic - "If I had allowed him to be my hero, he wouldn't have gone off to be hers - "

Hon, it doesn't work that way. Plenty of women have let their husbands know that they needed them very much, only to be utterly ignored because some poor needy little slut was swinging her azz in his face. And he figured his wife could wait until later, because after all, she was always around . . .

Men do this because they can. Because they've decided to have no boundaries and because they've told themselves the lie that being a hero to some helpless hot chick makes him a Great Guy and it's just harmless nonsexual fun.

There's nothing you can do, Scotty, with a man like this. You are either "too needy" or "you never needed me."

The truth is, you were neither. The truth is, he made a very selfish choice. The only one who could have changed that was him. But he didn't.

You are SO right about this. Just out of curiosity - how many of these men that you know are divorced? Or if not divorced, just happen to have horrible crazy wives?

And, these "reasons" are inter-changable, depending on the circumstances.
You, the BW, can be both in the SAME DAY !

Please feel free! Men need to realize that they are completely transparent when they act this way, and that "playing stupid" and pretending they don't know what flirting and sexual come-ons are only leads to damaged and destroyed relationships.

The only ones they're fooling are themselves - which is why it's so destructive.

I agree. "Status" is to women what "big boobs" are to men - an attribute that can make them forget everything else about that person but still fall for them.

That can explain why women sometimes go for high-status men (in any field or circle) who otherwise look like trolls, and why men so often go for the brainless bimbo who has nothing else to offer.

GM, there are NO excuses for this behavior! What others "think" of you no longer matter. The ONLY person on this earth that matters is DWG. Frankly you are very lucky she is still there.

My H's 2nd OW was and IS a DiD. She is IRL a incompetent female who has relied on men to do everything for her. We watched (from a distance) her implode a couple weeks ago because she has had to handle getting OC registered for kindergarten all on her own. There is no ex H to fall back on and my H is learning (still not there 100 percent) NOT be pick up the pieces. Honestly it is no wonder the current W's of her two Ex's don't trust her. H said she cannot hold onto female friends for the same reason.

Why are you bringing up Larry King?

I remember during a MC session my then WH telling the C that I didn't "need him". This was the same man that after his first A pushed and pushed and PUSHED me to be "independent". The same man who didn't "want to be needed".

Many times, wives that think they can do no better, and in that way are abused, desparatly believing the gaslighting and blaming themselves until the pain gets too great. Then H sometimes get stabbed if women don't get the help they need to get away, most of the time they just are heartbroken and need help to heal away from the Man.

Then there are the idiots that think its there job to "service" the troubled woman and don't want more than that. Kinda reminds me of the guy Bill Paxton plays in "True Lies". If you have never seen it you should, its classic.

Its a sad sitch all around.

"You need to be more independent" very often means, "I've got other women waiting who want my help and attention and YOU are in my way."

Be VERY careful if you ever hear that.

Narcistic anyone?

I can't find a youtube of Paxton on the bridge. You'll have to see the movie.

I fell in the category of never needing my xH.

This is probably a bit off topic, or opposite the topic...

...I was brought up by a single mom, working her tail to the bone. Mom told me when I was a teen that I had to do for myself because nobody else had to, or in some cases, would, and that MEN LEAVE.

I always thought that needing a man's help was a BAD thing. I rarely would allow a man's physical help, and only teachers were allowed to teach me anything. Otherwise, I felt belittled or talked down to, which was unacceptable.

There has got to be a happy medium there, hasn't there? I'm seeking it now. Is it even ok to say "I need you" anymore? I dunno

The key is DESIRE.
A Man (husband) can be very happy with a wife who DESIRES him.
*wink-wink*

*I DESIRE YOU* can be a very powerful ego stroke to a husband.
It goes further than "I need you" .... and *DESIRE* is way sexier

ITA unless you have a man with an unhealthy need to "people please" regardless of age, gender etc.

BTW, OW #1 was a PRO at making my FWH feel desirable. She called him "hunk", "stud" and a many other things I always felt foolish saying.

Ok, Whew! THIS I can do...THIS is what I was trying to accomplish in those false recoveries...WANTING my H, with passion and desire. Wanting his help, wanting his presence.

I would be a terrible DiD

DESIRE plus ENTHUSIASM <~~~ killer combo

Wayzilla played the DiD card to a tee. But underneath the Disney princess gown with bluebird cathedral length train attendants was in reality a gold digging, wrecking ball destroyer of marriages.

Gollum played the selfless Lancelot living in a loveless sexless marriage to Agatha, the soul sucking sea hag. Of course he was by now a three or perhaps 4-time adulterer.

It was the perfect storm for adultery.

From Gollum�s BxW�s email to me in March of 2007:

�Just to give you some insight, this is not the first time that Gollum has picked some gal at work to tell his troubles to and have a �relationship� with. When Gollum worked at XYZ, he picked out a gal to confide and tell his troubles to and became �good� friends with. This person was going through a divorce with her husband at that time and feeling very vulnerable. Their relationship progressed to phone calls day and night, seeing each other before and after work and who knows what else. I found out about their relationship and confronted him. This incident almost destroyed our marriage. However, we sought counseling and struggled very hard to make it a healthy relationship again. This was not the first incident either. There was one before that revealed in counseling.

Sorry to say, this is a recurring pattern with Gollum. He picks out someone who is feeling needy and vulnerable, gives her attention, tells his trouble to and becomes "buddies� and whatever else happens in between.

I was in the same type of situation when he met me. I had just broke up with a guy that I had been in a 5-year relationship with. Gollum was there before the dust settled to help me through it all�..After he is tired of Wayzilla he will move on to the next woman that �needs� a shoulder to cry on and in turn listen to his troubles. He gets bored after a while and does not like to deal with the maturity of relationships.�


Sound familiar?

All too.

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My first thought as well!

Long time no see!


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Much better than the Wonder Woman with bracelets lactating emoticon .

Actually i agree with Pep, it is more "power" or "fame" or "money" (if it is the right person i suppose it could be all three) that women go for than attractiveness. However like i said you do not see them on a daily basis running to help some man pick up something he dropped or run over to help him open a door because his hands are full.

They do these things on the sly.....

Like Scotty said i have seen men leave their wives holding 25 things in their hands to run over and open the door for a "pretty woman". I DO NOT see men leaving their wives holding 25 things to run over and open the door for a little old lady.

I don't think this is a character thing or a gender thing. It's basically that people are self-interested.

They run over to help because they think they might get something out of it.

People are self-interested, people assume reciprocity, people speculate, people try to get bargains, and people are illogical about their personal situations.

Meaning, the person helps the DiD thinking they will get something they want out of it, think it's a bargain (in terms of the how much they value what they get or how little they think they are paying for it), and are bad at recognizing the reality that it is not a bargain.

BTW, the smart people are sometimes more likely to fall into this because they are unaccustomed to being wrong.

They think they know better and are impervios to flatter. They think they have control? I think thats it.



On the other scale, I think women are also attracted to confidance, per-say cockiness and a take control attitude.

Then they spin a tale and mix it with concern and look like the knight in shining armour. Especially if they have power , money and influence.

Funny thing is , some men buy the Bullchit of the DiD and think thay ARE a knight in shining armor.

This is exactly how my DH's affair started. His friend was dying and his bitchwife needed support. In reality, she needed the paychecks he would get when he finished college. He finally got a sense of disgust when she called him before she called the ambulance when he died.

Glad he was aware of her motives. Did he try to keep her stable for his freinds peace of mind when He was really sick, and give up in disgust at the end?

I imagine he was disgusted with himself also, I assune he came clean and you are recovered. Grats if thats the case.

This thread reminded me of a poem that I have taught in years past to my AP students. It seems to fit the Did and the final outcome of her "rescuer".

Siren Song

This is the one song everyone
would like to learn: the song
that is irresistible:

the song that forces men
to leap overboard in squadrons
even though they see beached skulls

the song nobody knows
because anyone who had heard it
is dead, and the others can�t remember.
Shall I tell you the secret
and if I do, will you get me
out of this bird suit?
I don�t enjoy it here
squatting on this island
looking picturesque and mythical
with these two feathery maniacs,
I don�t enjoy singing
this trio, fatal and valuable.

I will tell the secret to you,
to you, only to you.
Come closer. This song

is a cry for help: Help me!
Only you, only you can,
you are unique

at last. Alas
it is a boring song
but it works every time.

Margaret Atwood

Awesome JT, how true it is, if you fall for it.

Unfortunately you are correct in that most people are self interested and will think "what will i get out of it".

However for this particular situation i personally disagree. Mainly because it happens all the time, IMHO probably about 90% of men will help out an attractive women every single time they see one. They will go out of their way to open a door or help her with a cart, etc.

Heck look how much they use attractive women and sex for advertising, you can pretty much sell anything if a women in a bikini is the one selling it.

I do like these threads - the inside the mind of the wayward.

Looking back you would certatinly all see me as a DiD. I wanted to improve my trumpet playing and OM was just the man - he had the confidence and the pluck (with a trumpet, not in life).

It is so easy looking back to see the dynamics - but so blind at the time.

Purely selfishly driven to improve my playing and why on earth did those alarm bells not go off when he got out a separate phone to put my number in and why on earth did I not back wayyyy off when he said he wouldn't let his wife know about our lesson.

I just shake my head in disbelief at how blatantly obvious it was... how stupid...how blind...how selfish

Nature of the beast.. hindsight is 20/20

Margaret Atwood. I do love to read some of Margaret Atwood. I did not know this one. Thanks it is a good one.

I wished PP used the Siren Song if she was in the water drowning.
XWH would come to her rescue jump in and sink to the bottom.
He can't swim...

I would also point out that if anyone wants an example of gaslighting, this is a perfect one.

"Wha - ? No, no, honey, there's nothing going on here! Huh? No, I didn't notice anything! She wasn't flirting with me! She's a co-worker. She would NEVER do that!

"YOU are just imagining things. This is all in YOUR head. Now, YOU need to stop making things up and just pay no attention. There's nothing going on here except in YOUR imagination."

Next thing, he'll be saying he doesn't know what sex is and never heard of such a thing - and you'll be halfway to believing him.

I think that's part of it. I also think people who aren't used to being used, can have a hard time spotting it when it happens to them. Additionally, there's the "throwing good money after bad" dynamic that seems to trip people up some times.


I do not mean this to sound cynical. I just think it is what it is, in that people are self-interested. I mean even charity is motivated my self-interests. (i.e. one feels good helping others).

To me, the self-interests isn't the head scratching part. It's the poor evaluations of the relative worth of things. (The what will I get out of it part) I'm as susceptible to flattery as the next person, so I'm sure on occassion I have offended my spouse in a speculative attempt to garner a compliment from another woman. However, it doesn't take me long to realize this was not a "good deal."


LOL. It's probably not 90%.

Color me DENSE. I just figured out what DiD meant.

Of course, she put herself in an attractive/flirty dress prior to placing HEROWNSELF on the tracks !
LOL

OMG , isn't someone man enough to go her that poor girl!!

By her expression, methinks she's sitting on top of a sharp pointy rock !
It's an EMERGENCY !!!!!!!

I think that pointy rock is some "helpful, well meaning" mans wife and she is biting back. He had better watch out, he is next.

Good grief! She looks like she's about 14yo!

But, it does seem like DiD tend to act like they're sweet, lil' helpless teenyboppers!

And that's pretty sad especially when they're actually in their mid-40s AND LOOK IT!

Oh yeah, it isn't so cute in the mid 40 range.

Yes there ya go, It is the Perception of making the Guy a big strong hero that guys fall for. The innocent dumb girl he thinks she is, and how she will do anything for him as she worships the ground he walks on.

age doesn't matter.

Now this is for Dids of course, but there is a little of the "save me" crap in all Affairs.

What kind of makes me sad in all of this is that these DiDs are MY gender.

Although i really do not care for these type of women as i have said before i have a couple of friends (more friends of friends type thing but i see them a lot) who are these type of women and think nothing about it, they use men as if it is no big deal.

Many of them go out on the town all the time and very rarely spend a dime because they use their DiD charm when they get there and plenty of men buy them drinks all night long (think reality shows).

And as i said these women think NOTHING about it at all, they will move on to the next "sucker" in a heart beat!!!

Lisa just posted in her thread that she needed "help" from her WH on her scooter because the battery terminals were hooked up wrong.....

DiD is working for her pretty well.

Now, off to help my damsel get the navigation bar back on her browser,.....wooosh!

Isn't it the way to approach someone that your interested in? Buy them a drink?

But I know what you mean, they use the suckers in more ways than hooking drinks.

I feel sorry for some of the girls who go out and try to meet a guy at the local meat-market. I mean the ones that aren't playing the game and really think they will find a relationship cuz one of thier bimbo friends got on them for"Not having fun"

They have a deer-in-the-headlights look and when they are sitting down with some smooth talker you can see the person behind the girl, making a stupid move, and even sometimes painfully uncomfortable.

The guy doesn't care, to him its funny and has no conscience about it. "She will thank me for it later". The smart operator man knows how to be in "distress" too. He will lie and do whatever he can to "get the prize"

I say "sometimes" feel sorry for those DiDs cuz they ussually know better, and are playing the damsel in distress also. Many times thats the closest way to meet guys they ever see, and they think they can, snare one, and change him later.

I have met the girls I have had relationships not looking for them, never have been able to do the "pick-up" in bar thing. When I was younger yes I tried, like I said I couldn't do it. I saw the human being underneath, and I stopped looking at the prospect of "free-love" and wild no-strings sex when I turned 18 and was first married.

To the wolf-man friends I had I was foolish, and the girls who would play the DiD game I was wise but also they would talk to me about things that really mattered. They trusted me cuz I would not use them for "just sex" and called them on thier bu11crap.

I'm not saying that I never had sex when I wasn't married. What I'm saying is I played the game of "no-strings" and found it empty and meaningless. But I did sucumb, I just didn't use women as cruelly as some men, but I did use them. Cuz thats what it is. I was honest about that and made sure it was clear it was no strings.

We all can do the "Please save me" crap at different levels in any relationship.

God save my would-be saviors and sometimes, "A freind in need is a p.i.t.a." How many of us are qualified when we try to take a shortcut to a truly fufilling relationship? How many are ready because they are OK with themselves and won't compromise what they know is right so they won't be lonly? I know I was'nt at one time emotionally ready, but I was real about the rules and that it took more than I had at the time to have one. In that way I was in distress, I wanted someone who would share the sometimes painful experience and stick, believing in the end that it was the commitment to truth that would "save" us.

Yup I enjoyed being the hero, and I needed that too, but when some Guy or Girl starts the relationship with "help Me!!" They are full of it or they are not even ready for one. If you really care for them and want to help them point to God or some other form of counsel, (if there is one that doesn't plagurize God).
If your intentions is to use them then you reap the results.

Have you ever seen "The Two Jakes?" When the widow Madeline Stowe comes to his office Jack Nicholson had his hands full with this DiD, how many women play that game. I can't do the scene justice in words. maybe theres a clip somewhere, but its racey. He responded the way most men do.

Ah the Did men who want a Mommy and the DiD women who want a daddy are the true damaged goods people. May we never get duped by them.

I think you are partially right. If I had to really say, it's the disproportionality of things that guys "fall for." Meaning most men I know aren't dying to be a big hero, or to have a woman worship the ground they walk on. (They might like that, but it isn't the big driver). What they "fall for" is the prospect of minimal effort, big returns. The DiD is selling this. It's usually a "bait and switch", but that's what is being pitched.

Yup Yup ITA.

Excellent thread, Mulan!

This is from my very first post here re: OW:

So even at that time, to a degree, I was aware that OW being a DiD was part of what started the A, but I had no idea that this is a common willful manipulation on the part of a woman to gain attention from men... and how the whole process of crying on a man's shoulder fulfills his EN for admiration...

I agree that men aren't exactly innocent in this scenario...but I honestly don't think they realize how easily it can snowball into an EA when they try to help a DiD.

Thinking about adding this to my H's list of EPs ~ Avoid DiDs at all costs!

Lol women either, how many times have you seen the "Thelma and Louise" couple of girls out or the Pretty and manipulative one with the average and intimidated one.

I have this policy with women when they start to talk about there relationships. I listen to hear if there is violence and if thier is I point to the police and living with a protector, house of ruth, daddy, what ever is available. Then if its just relationship jargon I tell them it makes no sense to tell me, its between you two, and bringing me in only makes it worse in so many ways. If they scoff at how they just wanted to talk to me I still keep up my gaurd and quikly get the heck out of there. I am empathetic but avoid having the answers.

If its a real issue that has some weight and is what anyone could see was a problem in the relationship,,, why in the world would i want to rob the guy from fufilling his gals needs by fufilling another one? It would be unfair to both of them.

If she was complainig about some stupid thing like, "My husband doen't act like he loves me..boohoo!" Or even if she had left him and was seperated cuz he was a crud and obviously flirting I would run even faster and farther .

Most of those personal situations I point to a Pastor or other appropiate authorities. Now its MB!!

This thread totally hit home with me and my situation with Drac!

Chrisner wrote -



This is Drac to a 'T"

At the beginning of his A with Ho1, I was getting the "we are just friends" speech. I KNEW how much it was ramping up when he atually said to me, "I just feel SORRY for her because she is a single Mom".

Later on, I also got the "You will be FINE without me. You are just FINE right now!"

Like SL, I realize I did not do enough to let him know that I needed & desired him. I take the responsibility for that. At the same time, he did nothing to fill the role in the ways that I did ask of him. The fact that the ways in which I needed him to be my Knight in Shining Armor changed as our lives and relationship changed was not something he was able to understand or even cared to try to understand.

Apparently it was totally okay to then make ME into a single Mom.

For me, I see several sides to the DiD situation. There are the women that play the role to get what they want - which often includes going after married men. They are willing to do whatever necessary to garner the attention and 'benefits' of anyone they can get to fill the role.

Then there are the men that have the need to be the Knight in Shining Armor. Instead of finding ways to keep that role in the lives of their wives, they continue to look for it from woman after woman after woman.

I agree there are likely some men out there that do not see the danger, but many are like my Drac that go out LOOKING for it.

Just my 2 cents.

When the Z began to feel this PULL by the DiD, he should have come home to me and told me that he does not feel like I need him anymore; that I desire him anymore. THAT would have been the start to making a better marriage.

Instead, he commiserated with OW#1 about their need to be free, to feel the wind in their hair, to fly among the birds...and I agree. They both should have jumped out of a plane without a parachute

And, the comment about it being ok to make YOU a single mom...priceless

I didnt read this whole thread yet but....I know my WH said things about OW like "she is a single mom with a kid" "shes been on her own and has it rough".....I am sure she was the damsel in distress...

When WH left and would come by to pick up DS, if he saw me taking in the grocerys or sweeping the driveway, he would always try and help me and I would say "I am fine I can take care of this stuff on my own, I dont need you to do this stuff for me anymore". I did this esp since he complained that being with me and DS was like having TWO children. (I really dont know what he meant by this...I did everything except the outside stuff and had a young child that I was taking care of, I was depressed but IDK).

Anyway, I wonder if now he would just feel I am doing fine without him. What I was thinking is that I am coming out of my A hole, slowly but surely...if I got myself back into shape and started, innocently, batting my eyelashes and wearing sexy stuff..and asked WH for help with some stuff around the house, if I could get him to cheat on OW with me...

I know just a fantasy, but its all I got right now...Oh, well...

A girl can dream, cant she?

WHAT?

OMG...I meant affair hole.....not the other thing....Mwhahahahaha...I AM HYSTERICAL....Mwhahahahahaha..

wheres my coffee, I think I need it.....

I am currently cleaning mine off of my computer screen

....Sorry about that.

No need to apologize...it gave me a good laugh...and spit take! You only get so many of those in your life

I would love to see him do that trick. Is that another analogy for coming "out of the fog"

Make that 2 coffees with a shot of expresso. This place kills me.

yeah but how many men realize that its just there ego talking and they are making whatever problems worse when they refuse to deal with them. Then that relationship no matter WHERE it goes is majorly screwed up. It can only end in the pit they dug for themselves. Boo-Hoo, misery loves company.

Now he must man-up and appoligize for his DJing his wife and/or her husband or they go deeper and it turns into a negative charged escape affair. In both cases its a screwwed up relationship that will leave them lacking in friendship or trust, even if they come to thier senses.

I think you are right...I like that analogy...

Ok buddy, reach down between your legs...grab your ears.. and pull your head outta your ..

OMGosh stilly, I am

I love the sound of MB laughter...

I agree this is a pretty basic need for men to be the knight and the hero and as you rightly point out, the trick is to make sure you do that with your wife not some other skanky woman.

BK i agree with you whole heartedly.

However a lot of the husbands that i know do both. They help out their wives but they also practically kill themselves to be the first one to open the door for some "hot chick".

The women who play this DiD card know exactly what to do, heck we women who do not play the DiD card can whip it out if necessary and MOST men will fall for it EVERY single time.

This is infuriating to me, it bothers me about both genders.

As you may be able to tell this is a touchy issue with me

Its allways a touchy subject and can definatly be hard to handle. When I had a bussiness my wife would be so infuriated when a women would play the DiD card with me. I also made it a point to laugh at it and talked to her about it, even to the point of rolling my eyes privatly when they pulled it in front of her. Did it feel a little flattering and did I like being able to help? Of course it did, but I also would get angry inside when I found out they just wanted attention and were playing dumb, what an insult to me, and to my wife.

What do you do then when a Did really beleives this is appropiate and really needs help. Ok, they are simpletons in this area, and taught it was the thing to do, and really need help with something. I allways took it with a grain of salt, and talked about how great my wife and family was so they knew what I was about and kept it all business even when it was charity from the church or they started talking about personal stuff.

But what is a guy to do if "some poor thing" really needs help. lol They all do.

Don't have a lot to contribute, but just wanted to throw in a funny story...this was told by a woman on another board I frequent:


A person who REALLY needs help will take it from whoever offers, regardless of gender.

Totally agree!!!!!

I have changed my own flat tire at least twice that i can think of and just a couple of months ago when my daughter wrecked my car (just a little damage and she was fine) she had a flat tire and her and i changed it so she could drive the car home.

If someone really needs help they simply ask for it, they do not use the DiD card unless they ONLY want help from a MAN, as i said we women can spot it a mile away and we are not stupid we know that the men know when a women is doing this as well so why do you pretend you do not know....... (not you CP just men in general)

This is a perfect example, there was a woman who used to come to the baseball games since her son and our son played on the same team. She would flirt terribly with my h, she would say things like "it is so hot out here i am going to have to wring out my underwear" or "man i need a towel for the sweat in my cleavage", she would bend over in front of him, one time she poured a glass of water down his back and said "now there isn't that better", i mean she was pushing it hard for sure.

Now mind you my h would just laugh at her or say something back to her that was funny, it used to bother me alot and i would tell him that she was coming on to him big time and he would always say that she was "just friendly" and "she is married" or something similar.

Well a few years ago i over heard him talking to a friend of his about this woman and he told his friend that "man oh man she would flirt with me BAD" so even though i suspected he knew when it was happening that she was flirting and he was loving the attention, when i heard him say this then i KNEW for sure that he knew the entire time.

So IMHO men do indeed know when the DiD card is being played........

Most of you know, my H attends AA, a LOT.
Daily, if possible.

There has been plenty of DiD's in AA.
I mean, they are soooooooo SAD, and soooooooo MISUNDERSTOOD by their family/friends/spouse/lover/co workers/employer/children/neighbor/pets
(well, maybe not their pets so much )

My H will tell any female wanting to discuss her issues with him outside of meetings ... "Here is Sally's number. Sally can help you. She has over 30 years."

Gawd, I just love that Sally.

When a DiD suddenly needs a RIDE to/from a meeting ... H simply says : "I don't give rides to women without discussing it with my wife first."

And, GM, if you are reading along .... the DiD does NOT get any sort of "I like you very much" or a "I wish I could give you a ride" prior to a refusal to rescue her by giving a lift.

Hey SC!

When I read about your FWH's behavior, it makes me wanna

Is he still like this? Does he STILL allow these advances in front of you, much less when you are not around?

The DiD is one thing, but disrespecting your wife...that's just poppycock!

Lol , Its sounds like so many people act. I am sure you realize she might have thought she were not capable, or is something went wrong, her husband might give her a hard time for letting a woman mess with the car.

One of my experiences with that type of thinking was when I repaired autos out of the back of my truck. I was completely A.S.E.,(for what thats worth, ask any real mechanic) certified + other special certs, had a stellar reputation, and unlike so many mechanics honest to a fault.

They would trust in a shop with shiny toolboxes and believe in stuff like "brakes forever" or whatever ploy they pulled the suckers in with.

FYI the idea was once you had brakes done you would get new pads or shoes at no charge for the life of your car. Well pads cost them like $4 each cuz they bought in bulk so it really didn't cost them that much. What would happen was the other parts of the system would wear out,( naturally), and they would charge thru the nose or at least find SOMETHING to repair that cost you parts and labor every time you came back. I don't want to say they FOUND things that were really not broke, but it happens.

The real issue was you were looking for a deal, and they could get your money in small doses instaed of all at once. Even if doing all the repairs at first was done, many times they found something else every time.

Try to tell somebody that they are wrong about the way things look and are being taken when the price is more than they want to pay, they think your lieing and trying to take them, but they believe in free.


So the lady out there is a product of both what she thinks,(that only men can change a tire), or a society that teaches that. Maybe she was hoping for a date with a guy, lol

Love your sense of humor pep.

Hats off to your H too

OMG Pep, you reminded me of something. My WH stopped one time to give a young girl a ride somewhere. He actually picked her up on the side of the road because it was raining. I was not with him. He came home and told me. He said, "It was raining. She was in a bad area(He is from a small town, there aren't any bad areas in my city ). It was late and I didn't want anything bad to happen to her." I asked, "Where was she going?" He said, "She was going to the bus station to go out to another city to go to a bar with her friends." I looked at him and said, "That girl didn't NEED to go to a bar. She didn't NEED to be out in the rain. Seriously, what were you thinking?"

His excuse? He didn't want to hear in the paper the next day that something had happened to this girl. He would have felt bad. Well, I could see that, it's definitely something that was a MAJOR warning for boundary issues with my WH.

SL, I am glad to FINALLY say that he has wisened up in this regards. He does not do these kinds of things anymore although it took me almost leaving to get him to start taking ACTION regarding the "friendly versus flirty" battle that we had for so many years.

CP, I think what we are getting at is that regardless of the situation she COULD have accepted the help from the woman, however she CHOSE to wait for a man to help her, if i were in a situation like hers regardless if my h had told me not to touch the car, if i could not get in touch with him, i am going to help myself and it does not need to be a man to help me, i will take whatever help i can get.

However the DiD would only accept help from a man.

Totally agree Scotty, bad boundaries for sure, but how many men would do the EXACT same thing??????? But i doubt very seriously they would stop if it were another man in the same situation....

Yeah I digressed a little, but I got it.

The problem can sometimes just be laziness or some other bad habit that society taught her. I know help is help, and I know she was a dipstick Did, and this thread is about DiDs and men they tangle in there web and the men that like it too and act innocent as the DiD.

I'm sorry if I took it to much of topic. I thought I had it covered when I said she might have been lokking for a date

The ultimate DiD

I wouldn't. For one thing, I'd be thinking she'd probably consider me a potential rapist or serial killer and wouldn't get in my car anyway. For another, I'd be concerned about being named a suspect if she did turn up missing or dead.

Same reasons I wouldn't stop to help a woman on the side of the road with a flat tire, either. I've also learned some harsh lessons from being used by women when I was trying to be helpful, or a gentleman, so I don't do it anymore unless I'm married to her or related to her. Otherwise, find another sucker lady.

Harsh?, Maybe, but from this thread it seems to me that a lot of other married men would do well to be just as harsh.

Way to go MacNut!!!!!!!

Oh Don't worry, I let all the other macho dudes save the day, I only stop for people who obviously need help, like old folks. Funny thing though, most of them don't expect it, or have learned how to change a tire.

The being accused thing has allways scared me too.

Lol that was good

When my YS needed to learn how to change a tire for Driver's Ed, I was supposed to show him what to do.

So I did.

I pulled out our insurance card with the emergency roadside number, told him to call it, and a tow truck would be sent out with someone who would change the tire for him. AAA certified at that!

And he'll be providing someone with a job, so it's a wonderful thing!

Well I got him back with the whole DID thing. And her also. Unintensionally. And the hardest way possible.
The day he told me about everything and left, I took the kids too my parents because I knew I couldn't deal. Then I went to Ace and bought new locks. Changed ALL of them by myself sobbing and gasping in pain. It was late by then.
I went to sleep and woke during the night with crushing chest pain. I woke up and managed to get out the back door and fell down the steps... landing on a huge planter a few steps down. The hospital, thank God was only a few blocks from where we lived at the time.
I had suffered a heart attack and was in shock. They put me in intensive care and called my family and my other contact on the list. She was a supervisor where we had both worked... and my best friend. She came to the hospital after informing my OH SO AT THAT TIME DEAR HUSBAND, who was told by the OW who also worked there, that I was just fakeing!!!! Yeah, Sad but true.
The next morning he must have been feeling like a piece of dog dung. He came to the hosp only to have me have another small HA as I see him walk into the ICU. They promptly ushered him out and flew me several hundred miles away to a ST Lukes. I was there for two weeks. He begged my dad to let him come home and care for the boys. My dad took no pity. It was only when I got home and was recovering that we reconcilled. He still apologizes for believing that [censored] that I could possiby be FAKING SOMETHING ENOUGH TO BE PUT IN ICU!!! [censored]..

By the way I was about 33 at the time. And they cannot understand that infidelity TRULY breaks your heart and scars you for a lifetime.

Well cherise.. OMG.. What an experience. Your H is so blessed to have such an intensly real and connected Wife, and I guess he knows it now. You were right, you paid for that too.


People don't understand how it can hurt so deep, or why when we love somebody who has problems, why we do, but when it comes to the point where their life might be over, things really get clear. All the problems and reasons dissapear and the person becomes the one you fell in love with.

You obviously loved him with such depth that he was a part of you, and the news of the betrayal did what naturally it would as if he had died, but worse, the person "inside" had died, the part that loved you, and that feels like your being is crushed.


He is so so lucky to have you. You sound like you definatly have made your life part of His, without exception, connected in all ways you could imagine, that sense of commitment is powerful and real stuff. Your right, most people don't know the depth of pain, then again many don't give themselves that much.

I couldn't be married without giving it all. I salute you for your courage and commitment and dare I say your wisdom to love 100% as much as you knew how, both for His sake and your own, even when it put you in peril.

Real Peril, not like the DiDs we have been talking about here.

I'm so glad I found this thread. My life the past week has been in turmoil because of a DiD. I posted a thread on the Infedelity forum called "I'm Just Sick", but as the pieces are beginning to fall into place, I'm beginning to think it was less of an EA and more of a DiD situation. (I won't rehash here...you can read the thread if you'd like).

My H went through a TERRIBLE divorce 11 years ago. Any time ANYONE male or female going through a bad divorce, he is one of the first ones to step up and try to help. While I see that as oftentimes generous and kind behavior, in this particular situation, he chose to provide emotional support to a DiD that was also a NUTJOB.

It's been really hard for me to sort through all the information and assign the appropriate blame, if that makes any sense.

I don't mean this woman was a little crazy. I mean she's a LOT crazy. She's lied about everything from her relationship with my H to her professional credentials (told him she was an RN and a supervisor and had been 'recruited' by a hospital in our town 200+ miles from where she lives.) Turns out she's an LPN in a nursing home.

I know that my H was wrong in establishing any sort of friendship with her that was not transparent, BUT I don't know how to separate the crazy from the stupid.

To top it off, my MIL (who does not like me), befriended this DiD and seems to have ENCOURAGED her to persue my H.

I don't even know how to handle that.

Any section on MB's forums that deals with InLaws behaving this way?

Don't try to split it too finely. My OW was also someone with a sob-story about how she was so neglected in her marriage. And, yeah, they'll mark a guy for empathy. But so what? It was still my lousy choice that was decisive, just like it was your H's lousy choice, to let it progress to an emotional affair (and in my case, then on to a physical one).

The point is that there is no situation where sharing of confidences about marriage with a person of the opposite gender is ever appropriate (unless it's in couples counseling where one's spouse is present, or unless it's a discussion with blood relatives). Once a discussion veers into sharing confidences with a person of the opposite sex other than your spouse, the conversation has already gone too far. It is never "generous & kind," nor anything other than naive & stupid at very best.

You don't ever want to succumb to the trap of trying to make distinctions, to figure out "Hmm, is she a DiD or not?" or "Is she a nutjob or not?"
Doesn't matter. If she's talking to your H about her marriage, she's simply danger, period. This needs to be internalized; it needs to be an automatic, default assessment on his part. This is what it means to have boundaries: If a woman -- any woman -- ever approaches your H to discuss marital issues, the only appropriate response is for him to say that it's not appropriate for him to discuss such things, and to suggest that she speak to a professional counselor, and redirect the conversation to something safer like "How 'bout them Red Sox?", or else just walk the hell away.

There are plenty of women who can step up to help other women with their marriages or divorces. The only woman whose marriage a man should ever be working on is his own wife.

Would any of you ladies care to opine as to the reasons that otherwise virtuous men would find themselves lured to "rescue" these extra-marital distressed damsels?

I have my own theory (Hint: it has to do with EN-satisfaction. Big shock!), but I'd like to ask the ladies here.

BTW: The converse (contrapositive?) of the guy-rescuing-gal dynamic is called the "Wendy complex". This was my FWW's issue.

Admiration.

NG - FWIW - My WW has the 'Wendy complex' - never heard that before. It might even apply to the OM in my situation. Most of her adult relationships involved men who needed rescuing from something in their life. I'm the exception to that rule. Ironic, isn't it? I'm the one she's cheated on.

ITA

Men get stupid for:
Female with sexy body who acts available (flirts, admires, etc.)

Women get stupid for:
Male with status who pays attention to her.

Whether male or female, if you have poor boundaries you are wide open to being sucked in by one of these.

"Damsels in Distress" ALWAYS look as sexy as they can and ALWAYS flirt/act available.

"Cruising Men" ALWAYS flaunt their status and ALWAYS make a show of paying attention.

Works every time. So don't be stupid. Good Boundaries = Protection Against Stupid.

Amen sista' Mulan.

Our Idiot du Jour, Rep. Weiner, is a perfect example of this. He's not much to look at IMHO, but he's sure got status as a member of the U.S. Congress. He used that status to search out hot chicks and pay attention to them - and a lot of them started flirting right back and sucking up to him. Think it's a coincidence that at least one is a porn actress?

It's a classic case of the Stupid leading the Stupid. It was exactly the same thing with Tiger, Arnold, etc - and it happens every day with men who have any sort of status (even a star high school football player) and use it to attact hot-looking chicks who will flirt with them and act like they're available - or actually BE available.

Having no boundaries is all fun and games until somebody gets hurt real bad. Or worse. Last night, Dr. Drew was saying that this guy should be on suicide watch. No kidding. I was thinking the same thing.

And nobody's even mentioned what this is doing to his wife (of less than a year).

P.S. Hi Pep - good to see you here again since ya took a little time off.

Thanks honey.

I have always known about the Predatory OW/aka Dumsel. Ever since I was first introduced to her in 2001.

They are the MOST INSIDIOUS types of ow out there. Many times they are deliberately trying to snare a wealthy or of more financial significance than themselves, mm.

Sadly my area is over-run with them. What imho causes the "dumsel equation" to be proven true time and time again is this variable interjected into the marriage that's about to be hijacked: whether or not a small child, out of town job, or stressful situation pulls the attention of the soon to be betrayed wife from focusing on the soon to be mm. Then comes a "looks quotient" to the equation too, in that the betrayed wife does not know she is directly being compared to the potential other woman at all.

So when we're out with small kids going grocery shopping in our yoga pants and t shirt, there's some skeezy ow with thigh high mini wearing stilettos at work batting her overdone eyelashes at your husband, if she perceives he can get her somewhere in life she's too lazy to get herself to.

That's the really unfair part. These are women DIRECTLY ON THE PROWL. Yep. You and your kids are collateral damage to them. On most given days, I could have easily been called equally or more attractive than my xwh's bimbos, but I was a REAL WOMAN and at the time a mom of a very young son who had asthma. Thus, I was hands on all the time with my son, and was that chick who ran around in yoga pants.

Granted, I always gave my xwh attention, but there is the variable going on also of YOU BEING UNFAIRLY COMPARED TO ANOTHER WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE.

Could I have worked the stilettos in short skirts? Been made up 24/7 and looked hot all the time? Sure. But I AM A REAL WOMAN AND A MOM AND WAS A WIFE.

I was not a predator. I was CONTENT WHERE I WAS AT THE TIME.

These women are everywhere these days. There are many "recycled" singles out there, and that's what my girlfriends call them. Recycled singles are suddenly single again women who might ben (just a generalization) hurting a bit financially, divorced their spouse looking for the elusive "happiness" or greener grass, and found out that they were now in a world where there are about 10 single women for every 1 single guy.

These are the women who imho become and are the most at risk to become the predators. They've been out there. They've been maybe somehow struggling. They may see your husband at work, a nice car, or he shows them a photo of his nice house or a family photo. They see he's smart. Works a good job and has a nice income.

Suddenly to many of these recycled singles out there (and I was one, but was a recycled single b/c I was a betrayed spouse, but NEVER like the predatory women out there) do not want to struggle anymore. They know it's hard to find a decent guy. So they BEFRIEND YOUR HUSBAND. Get to know him. Feed the ego little bitty bits each day. Then "need" him for something special, something ONLY YOUR HUSBAND can do for her. They will ask about your husbands' marriage TO YOU. They will DOWN YOU WHENEVER THEY CAN. Turn you into a made up fictional characature of yourself.

And then one day, there will be an inappropriate brush up against his body. Or a stare that will linger too long. And it is a matter of time before they act on it.

My new H (we're still newlyweds) almost ran into this, but lucky me, he's got GREAT BOUNDARIES and is aware of how the predatory ow act. He has had to recently fly alot for business and has a usual flight he had been on to a certain destination each week.

After once or twice, the flight attendants on the airline kinda were expecting him in the 1st class/business section. After about the 4th flight, one of them asked if he'd like an extra freebie neck pillow (with their logo on it). He said sure. She then sat down beside him and began talking to him like she knew him. She asked him ALL ABOUT HIMSELF, and what part of our city was he from, where did he work up there, etc. He felt IMMEDIATELY this was wrong, so he told her he didn't have much zzz and needed to rest before a big meeting.

She saw the good looking guy. Commuting 1st class every week, sitting ALONE, but dang it..was wearing a wedding ring.

TRUST ME, SHE WOULD HAVE GONE AS FAR AS HE WOULD HAVE ALLOWED IT, but thankfully my dh is a good guy, and we both have been betrayed spouses in our prior marriage, know MB practices, and believe in fidelity to a fault.

So if this can happen in my blissfully happy marriage on an innocent business flight, what do you imagine happens each and every day everywhere?

A good looking, successful man is in short supply and these woman have NO PROBLEM going after them.

Lol Peachy right on..

You can bet both sexes play on this also, and the marriage ring, the "troublesome boyfriend that just doesn't understand" girl is a preferred target for a lot of sleazy guys, especially the married sleazy ones.
I had a guy I knew once explain it this way. "Look they don't know what they want, and they are allready involved so you get the bennys of sex, screwing some other guys girl, with never having to make a commitment. Sometimes I tell them I am married and spin them a story about some sad thing so I look like a poor soul after a little while while I am tapping her but, hey its just to draw it out longer, because I allready know it has no future." Then they go out and find a new one when that one is going south, and cry about how they are being treated..

These professional sleazy guys know the ratio of women to men out there and they count on it also to "get the milk for nothing". They just know how to lie and have one thing in mind, hurting everybody because they get thier jollies out of it. They don't get caught up in "love", they're to "smart" for that.

Yup predators.. The poor misunderstood hero guy ploy is out there too..Sure there are guys just dumb enough to accually fall in love with women just dumb enough but ussually one of them is acting like a predator and has no boundaries. Pick your reasons excuses they use, it just laziness.

I ussually can spot them right off, and tend to avoid them, but DiDs are very attractive to mens egos, especially men who think they can save someone, or would like to believe they can and are willing to play. The smart ones learn quickly how far they can go and change thier MO to continue to try and pull the wool over everyones eyes but they are still predators in sheeps clothing.

A good looking, successful man is in short supply.....

Hmmmmm, maybe I'll change my note epilogue........

And yet, and yet....this board is increasingly becoming BH-Central. What are we running, 5-to-1 or so, in newly betrayed spouses being males over the last six months?

What we're seeing, apparently is not the overload of waif-like DiD's, but overly imaginative(?), highly self-entitled WIVES, who demand the perfect fantasy-lover (Sorry ladies, there's only one of me, and I'm VERY spoken for!) who are not satisfied with the traditional husbandly virtues of familial support and accomodation.

The traditional marital equation is increasingly broken by elevated earnings of women in today's PC-dominated employment roles, and (and this is what I was hoping to extract from someone earlier) the reduced dependence on male contributions. I believe that the DiD contingent (however few/many they are) appeals to those males who crave the EN of BEING the KISA, which today's wives want little or nothing to do with.

Someone else may now climb on the soapbox. (I'm guessing I'm already in a world of trouble!)

Not with me Bro

But I'm guessing you know that allready..

Women watch to many Vampire Movies and think they are romantic.

(There that should take the heat off you NG )

Well CP I can say I have never wanted to watch any of the "Twi-Hard" movies. Not into that.

Or maybe the new crop of WW's out there are ones who think they'd like to move into the fantasy-fueled, steal somebody ELSE'S life and they're becoming

THE PREDATORY OW and also a WAYWARD WIFE?

If they're feeling they are missing out on something, or are tired of feeling as if they're struggling for any reason.

That's another possibility.

But I know in my area, it's pretty much WH having affairs 10x over the WW's having the affairs.

That is also a scenario which is quite viable. And in my situation, it was almost true btw.

My xwh's wistress WAS TECHNICALLY single when he met her, but in reality it was because she hadn't gotten married yet.

She had been engaged to and was living with the father of her son, who was very small also at the time of her affair with my now xwh (and now her xwh too!).

So she was indeed cheating also when she began the ema with my then wh. She was cheating on her live in fiance and babby daddy. My xwh at the time, made a good bit of $ and had what I call the "ow dream". Good job, gorgeous home (we'd just built), and he was good looking.

Meanwhile in her life, she was struggling financially with her fiance, and he was gone often (but he's a very nice guy and btw HE HAS SOLE CUSTODY NOW OF HIS SON due to my exposure back then) and had a strange schedule due to being in the military. His wayward fiance thought she DESERVED BETTER.

Sound familiar? So this almost ww decided to help herself to MY FAMILY HOME AND MONEY by deliberately setting her sights on a very married guy and dad.

Yeah some pol are allways looking to "trade up" and they don't see they are the problem

I was thinking. How do you think the numbers crunch in the wh to ww ratio?

Is it because there are so many available w out there that it's so easy?
Or is it because There are so few men around?

Just getting my head aroundvthe math odds

Gonna write it down and get back to ya cuz I'm on my iPhone in a parking lot lol

Ditto. Having been once a single gal and dated after my divorce I can say 100 percent it's because of the skewed numbers of men vs. women out there.

Again, about 10 women to every 1 single man.

Thus, you're gonna CREATE predatory other women just because of the virtue of the math alone. Like a shark, when food is scarce, they begin hunting OTHER THINGS rather than their usual prey. If no single men around, WHAT MEN ARE THEY AROUND? That would be married ones. So they change their type of prey.

Is there a thread in the dating section that that topic is being discussed where it would be appropriate or helpful to post speculations?

NG, I agree with the last post. It is like some men want to be the knight in shining armour. But it also comes down to one basic EN and that is, as Pep said, admiration.

In my case, I became self sufficient because I HAD to. My WH didn't do anything anymore. He even used to tell me that he didn't need to buy me presents or cards anymore because he "had" me. I answered with, "But it doesn't mean you'll keep me."

Also, all of the "bitching and moaning" that I did became nagging to him and he didn't want to listen to me anymore. I even remember him saying one time, before I knew about the A, but OW WAS in the pic, that it was easier to help her with her problems because they didn't effect HIS life. If he helped me with something, and it backfired, he would have to daeal with it for a long time, but not with her.

A lot of the things that my WH told her, jokes advice, etc, were actually things that I told him. He never told her that it came from me, but I am CERTAIN that he lapped up all of the admiration for being so smart and so funny.

My WH is NOT rich, and he is okay looking. The OW is a real dog. She was very open about her sexuality and flaunted it for ALL men to see. She would talk about how she was addicted to sex and she would lure them in with all the fantasies that she knew they wanted. And poor poor OW, she was a single mother, who had to work so many hours and not spend enough time with her child. She even had to work 6 days a week to afford her manicured nails, 120/month hair cuts and dye jobs, and her designer label clothes. Anyone would feel sorry for her......NOT. I think my WH was hit with a stupid stick when he met this one.

See, when my WH and I first started dating, I was his first GF and he was 18. He didn't know much about women so I would tell him, "Don't talk to other women about us, they will see it as an in." I tried to figure out what was different about this OW, then the other female friends my WH had over the years. One difference, she had a kid. My WH LOVED to talk about his kids. He even helped her with the problems she was having with her DD(of course it was MY advice).

In the end, I can tell you that I still wanted my WH to take care of me, I always did. He just stopped a long time ago. Now I get to truly do it on my own. And, he chose to make me a single mother, the fate he is trying to save OW from. Too bad he didn't choose to save me instead. Guess I have to save myself instead.

BTW, I DO watch the "vampire" movies and read the books. I am absolutely IN LOVE with the love story. Twilight was the first book I had read in YEARS and I have read MANY since. Found out that I am quite fond of paranormal romance, and sci-fi stuff. Can't beat a good love story.

Well it was the whole slow affair thing that the skanky ow did to your wh at his office.

the type i talked about, the deliberate predatory ow. Admiration IS one way they get into their pants, but the main ways is by pushing and pushing the boundaries a little by little each day, feeding bits of admiration and then revealing bits of their "horrible lives" to them daily, and then in this case, your wh's skankaho revealed apparently to the men in his office she was a sex addict or something. Whoa. She was saying in that statement, "she loves to have lots of sex all the time" and discussing sex lives at work is simply inappropriate.

YOUR wh had boundary problems. YOU did nothing wrong. Nothing. Zero. This is his baby to rock now.

That's when he should have had better boundaries.

Plus you are also unaware of this and unfairly being compared to this skank without your knowledge in an affair. You don't know what is going on. You probably are 1,000,000 times prettier and smarter than this "woman", but she is deliberately on the hunt for a man who can help her raise her young (from another mate) and provide for her financial needs.

After all, those manicures, hairstyles, and outfits don't pay for themselves do they? Well apparently her job didn't either. I HATE SKANKYHOS!

Don't get me wrong Peachy, I don't blame myself AT ALL. If my post made it sound that way, I didn't intend it to be so. I was just throwing it out there.

And yea, this OW was a real piece of work. She flaunted how much she enjoyed sex, but I truly feel sorry for her. Within 10 minutes of my first meeting with her, I asked her if she had been molested as a child, and she said, "How did you know?" She is more messed up than anyone but a therapist, years of counseling and some meds can help. I actually would feel sorry for her, if I still didn't hate her guts for helping to tear apart my family and take my sons' father away from them.

Wow. Well she may be mentally messed up. Just sayin', if she has some mental health issues, then she may not be fit to be around ANY kids, even her own. Just sayin that's something I'd investigate if it were me. She definitely sounds truly ill.

Sorry she was anywhere in a 1,000 mile radius of your wh.

Fwiw, my xwh's ow, the one who we found out did drugs in same apartment her son was in with her, was a teenage runaway turned model, and presented a similar type scenario, saying to me once (when she actually was trying to make me think she was an ok person and not this bad, horrible monster who was shacking up with my wh) that there was "kind of incest" type abuse going on with her too.

The judge actually told my xwh that he should "never leave his pregnant ow alone with our son" because of her poor decisions in parenting. My work actually led a few weeks later to ow LOSING CUSTODY of her own child to her ex fiance.

Back to the airline thing with my dear husband, that happened recently with the potential ow type stewardess..

anybody have their spouse now "get it" and able to fend this type of predator off yet?

I am still taken aback by the aggressive nature of the flight attendant in a very empty almost first class cabin area.

My dh was a few weeks ago on a flight and he regularly flew on that exact flight the exact same days of week, and the flight attendants apparently recognized him clearly.

He was almost alone in 1st class, just resting (it's an early am flight) and she came up and (was a 30 something somewhat attractive woman)started talking to him. Next thing she's asking him if he'd like a complimentary neck pillow to keep. Then she's sitting DOWN BESIDE HIM talking to him like she knew him or something for about 15 minutes.

He was really sleepy (it was a 7 am flight and he likes to zzz on planes)and about that time his "sh*t-o-meter" went off and he realized EXACTLY WHAT this woman was doing. He told her he couldn't talk, had a big meeting ahead, and that he wanted to only sleep but thanks for the pillow. He then said, "my WIFE would love this pillow for when we take our anniversary trip to an island this summer." He said she immediately went away and didn't talk to him after that.

But what she DID try to talk to him about during that brief time she plopped down beside him in the plane was:

*what part of town are you from (in our city)
*where do you work in this other city?
*what do you do?
*what do you like to do when in the other city? (her layover)
*what are your favorite restaurants in both cities?

Stuff that was clearly off limits.

And he wears his wedding ring faithfully. Again, the opportunity to a predatory ow-wanna-be presented itself to the skan-er-dess and she attempted to take down new prey. I asked my dh if the stewardess was single, he said, she told him "I really want to have kids one day" somewhere in her rambling convo with him, so he assumed she was indeed single or divorced.

I seriously chalk this up to the number of GOOD single men versus single women out there. Hardly any men for them available (except they're only dating the GOOD single women!)

Thus, some predatory ow have no problem having alternative prey and go for the married men. Most of the time they have more $ anyway or have something in their lives they desire.

Ok Peachy gonna start a thread on the After Divorce Dating and relationships thread trying to simply state the odds and statistics.

Maybe it will help the broken-hearted in understanding the pitfalls and twists and turns of dating nowadays and encourage the borderline wayward lurkers to keep what they have and do the work.

I will post the link back here after.

As ussual, I am again reminded of an anecdote I heard a long time ago, both because of this subject, and because I just got out of a car where a boyfriend was complaining about his girl, so I told it to him.

There was this farmer selling his old reliable tractor that had been in his family for years. He had took good care of it and it still worked fine.

The potential buyer told him he was asking to much money for it because it was an old model, and pointed out all the gadgets they have on new ones and how sophisticated they were now.

The farmer said..

"You see my wife out there in the feild with my grandchildren, working slowly but steady helping them to learn thier jobs? Well we have been together many years through troubles and breakdowns I can't even tell you.. I've lost count.

Well I wouldn't trade her for a million dollars, but I wouldn't give you a nickel for another one exactly like her"

Some things just have value that is earned through perserverance, and its priceless.

What are the odds of meeting someone good?

There it is contribute if you want, gotta crunch some numbers first.

Scotland I can relate to this. Now that I am in Plan B and I have time to evaluate what actually went wrong in the marriage. I realized how much my WH checked out of the marriage. I finally realized he had major issues that contributed to this marriage failure.

In my case the POSOW is deployed with my WH, and she DiD him very well. With his native language he set her up and by all the evidence I found used him like her boyfriend. My WH finally got his real life porn star. She acts and dresses like one, and of course he couldn't resist.

The hardest part of this is knowing she likely used him, and will be done with him later. She has a track record and did this to another marriage when she was deployed to IRAQ. She doesn't go into a bar to pay for her own drinks. Nope, she uses men to get what she needs.

When I confronted her there was no sorry, or I didn't know. It was all about how she gets targeted by people just because she is pretty and isn't responsible for my bad relationship. She went on to tell me the hot tub pictures are just "Innocent, but playful pictures of good friends having fun!"

A family destroyed by a DiD that fueled my WH's addiction and now he is hooked. His entire life and his military career thrown into the toilet for a skankyho. He has yet to realize, feel it, or even own it.

As I build myself up and my figure gets back to sexy it cannot make up for failing my husband at his most important need. He and I were caught in a sick cycle. I ate to escape the lack of my needs being met. I begged him for years to fill my needs, but he didn't want to and didn't have the desire. I kind of think I have four babies today because it was the only thing that I could get from him. We had the Taker/Giver relationship for years. I gave and he took. My resentment grew. No amount of this sick cycle is responsible for his choices. I was miserable by him, but I stayed true to my vows. Today, I am still faithful to him.

I pray everyday for the POSOW to just go away. I hope when they come home in a month she will go find another man that now has way more money than my man. When she first dug her claws into him he had a hefty six figure salary, but now I get half of it. Along with that we are losing our two homes. He was rich, but now he is poor. I just don't think the DiD will want that anymore. I just hope the gossip is true and that she just uses men for their money. Then she will dump mine and maybe (not sure still) we can reconcile.

My four babies sure do miss him!

Tough~

So why does he stay with her?

I so relate to your other post about how the things your husband said to OW would often come from you.... my husband's other woman basically liked ME in my husband.... ridiculous.

Mehr, he stays with her because she makes him feel good. At least that's my best guess since I don't really know, being in Plan B I am oblivious

Ladies, before finding this site, I spent time on another one, one that was heavily BW-dominated. There were some useful exchanges there, but all too often, and all too soon, the discussions migrated to "can you top this" exchanges demonizing the OW. Since, as one of the few BH's participating, I technically was married to, and reconciling with, an OW, I often protested their views (with such force and persistence that I was "excused" from further participation). It was not that I wanted to defend the OW's of the world, but that the BW's were taking the easy way out. Rather than dig into what caused the rupture in their marriages, the ladies there were content to say, "Oh, yes, my WH is a moron, and she was an easy piece." Like a fault-line in the Earth's crust, leading to unexpected quakes, the conclusion was that the BW's could not have known, could not have done anything to prevent the disaster.

If nothing else, this marvelous site lays out the game-pieces that can build a successful, and affair-resistent marriage. (I don't like absolutes, so "-proof" is not used here.) Looking back NOW I can see which EN's were not being supplied by me, (and which by my wife, which contributed to my increasingly not supplying those she needed), the lack of which led her to look for them without me. Yes, the OM was competent in many fields, decent-looking, funny, and hard-working. These qualities also highly describe ME. (Wife mentioned this after recovery: "D was more like you than any man I had ever known.") What he did, as with any paedophile, was identify what was lacking in my wife's daily existence, and supply it in large doses.

I asked the question, "What do DiDs provide to KISAs?" and the consensus answer is "admiration". This male will tell you that is very close but not exactly right. It is a melange of admiration mixed with expressed gratitude, and an internally-generated feeling that the KISA made someone's situation better, easier, etc. Why do you think men stop on busy highways to assist females with car trouble? Most of them are NOT attempting to initiate an extra-marital relationship.

I dove very hard into discovering where my efforts at satisfying my wife's ENs was lacking. I can tell you what I wasn't doing then, and what I now consciously do, to improve our lives together. I attend to it everyday (BTW: So does she.)

One of you said that the xWH and OW are still together "because she makes him feel good" which is obviously true. But the key would be to answer "How?" It may be that the "need" he had/has would not be acceptable to you, (outrageous SF demands, abandonment of family responsibilies, etc) and therefore the marriage was doomed to fail.

But over the recent six months, the six or eight BHs on this site have been doing the hard work to uncover those missing EN's and "lure" the WW's back. (And shrinks would tell us that their tasks are more daunting than those facing the typical BW.) Those BHs are not sitting back and saying, "Well, he had a killer hairdo and danced like a champion. No WAY could my WW resist that!"

Society has done immeasurable damage to the opportunities for men to generate the good feelings of being the KISA we all have some secret desire to be. (No sabre-tooth tigers to vanquish; a phone call brings AAA to change the wife's flat tire!) DiDs provide those opportunities for their targets. Should wives seek opportunities to do the same?

I think it ties in with the Admiration need, the desire to be a KISA.

You don't have to slay a dragon to be a KISA for your wife or girlfriend. It can be doing something "small", such as Al leaving work to be with me when I went to the ER a week ago. I was so utterly grateful to him that I couldn't have shown more affection (a top 5 for him) and gratitude than I was showing.

It gives them the chance to feel like they are a hero. You shouldn't depend on being the KISA for every issue, I think, but there are still times when it's good to let her know you can be her KISA.

Sometimes all it takes is getting dinner ready for her. Sometimes it's being there when she's very ill.

Anyway, I digress. The point is that I think it is okay to be a KISA for your wife or girlfriend (if you are not married)...NOT for anyone else. And not all the time, for everything.

The unmet "need" (wandering husbands) is sometimes the need to hear excessive admiration in absence of actual admirable behaviors/qualities.
A glowing (borrowed) sense of self, which is mostly unearned.
Heavy reliance on a woman's praise to feel like a man.
An underdeveloped sense of self.
Combine this need with an intolerance for hearing radical honesty as a positive thing, you have yourself a man who will find that the DiD is a strong aphrodisiac.

Sometimes, we see a MBer BH (divorced, or soon to be) head down this path to seek premature & unearned womanly approval if he has been rejected by his WW.

Admiration is a legitimate need.
It's possible to have this need met in false ways, via a DiD.

The KISA and the DiD need each other's weaknesses to fit together.
If either makes positive personal growth towards having a sense of self without the reflection, the other one is left without their reflected sense of self, and that's not OK for him/her.

Thank you Pep. You are a God send to this board. Some how you put to words exactly what is going on in my brain at exactly the right time.

nESRE

If you read here long enough, you will see that what the BW or BH did or didn't do has nothing to do with their spouse's choice to cheat.

To use your example: If the wife wanted her cheating husband's company and asked for his help with things, she was needy/helpless/clingy/suffocating and he just had to get away from her to a woman who wasn't so demanding and controlling.

And if she was independent and didn't rely on him much, then (*sniff*) she didn't need him and he wanted a woman who did.

You will find the same comparison for every excuse anyone ever gave for cheating.

Cheating is a like a disease that has no outside cause, much as we would like to find one. Cheating is an autoimmune disease - that means the cause rises from inside the person and turns on him/her and causes an awful sickness.

We've debated this here before and pretty much came to the conclusion that using the MB principles will make for a great marriage, but even then will not prevent adultery if one partner continues to have poor boundaries and is therefore open and vulnerable to either Damsels in Distress or Cruising Men, as described above.

Regarding Scotlands WH:

See my post above. Female with sexy body who acts availble + male with poor boundaries = Male Struck Stupid.

When Male Struck Stupid also has Status and Pays Attention to said female, you end up with Male Struck Stupid AND Female Struck Stupid. And that = Wrecked Marriage for one or both.

See also "Woods, Tiger,", "Schwarzenegger, Arnold," and "Weiner, U.S. Rep." And loads upon loads of other WH who aren't so famous but act the same way. It's virtually always the same thing.

Could not have said it better myself. And I could add that this is practically the definition of narcissism - when the person has shut off all sources of admiration *from the inside*, as in self-respect, self-valdiation, self-worth, and instead wants all of that to come from outside sources.

Like a Damsel in Distress if male, or a Cruising Man if female.

Why shut it off from the inside? Because it feels really good to get all that praise and admiration from the outside. It feels like being a rock star, no matter what your actual position in life. So you shut it off from the inside in order to remain 100% available to getting it from the outside anytime it's there.

That's what Dr. Drew calls "acquired narcissism", and it's an addiction like any other - a stone-cold addiction to Attention.

And I must add that this is so very, very true - the person knows that they're doing something terribly wrong, but there is such a huge amount of instant gratification going on that they become completely hooked on it.

It's so easy! No work involved! Actually EARNING respect and validation is WORK and takes TIME. Why bother when you can go to your workplace or go online and get tons and tons of Admiration right now? Sure, it's all fake crap, but who cares when it feels so good?

Again, for recent 100% example of this see "Weiner, U.S. Rep.", who ignored his beautiful and intelligent new wife for tons of instant sucking up from online bimbos that he didn't even know.

If you read here long enough, you will see that what the BW or BH did or didn't do has nothing to do with their spouse's choice to cheat.

I invite you to continue reading, as you generously inferred I should. You only mastered half the lesson.

Yes, that the decision to cross the boundaries and participate in an affair is the WS's exclusively, is a principle here. But an equally important principle is that the conditions in the marriage are equally the responsibility of the two partners.

What my point was, which you so studiously ignored, was that what the potential betrayed spouse can do, if they know what they are looking for, can prevent the EN-search that leads to boundaries being crossed, by the potential wayward spouse. Yes, strong boundaries would stem the progress toward infidelity. What I'm talking about is stemming the need to approach to the boundaries.

There is hairpin turn high up on a mountain. People who maintain too high a speed fly off, crash, and die. I want to put up guardrails. The "nothing can be done" position just expands the cemetary at the crash site below.

If your "what the BW or BH did or didn't do has nothing to do with their spouse's choice to cheat" has any validity, then spouses have no ability to control their own marriage's future - it would just be random selection as to which marriages succeed, and which fail. God forbid that's what the reality is!

Why do you think knowing the EN list, and actively satisfying it, and implementing the principles of O&H, POJA, etc are so important? I think you'll salute the statement that observing those principles and actions will build better marriages. Well, one of the indicators of "better" to me would be that neither partner seeks EN satisfaction outside of the marital union.

NG, all the things you name will indeed make for a great and satisfying marriage. But you live in a fool's paradise if you think that having a great marriage will always protect you from somebody cheating.

That's because in the end, you cannot control what your spouse does - what any other person does. You can put all the protections in place, as you should, but in the end if somebody Gets Stupid and crosses the line, there is nothing you can do to stop them short of duct-taping them to a chair and keeping them locked in your basement 24/7. And even in AZ, where I live, that would be frowned upon by law enforcement.

My XWH actually said, "Things were good at home so I thought it wouldn't hurt anything." I'll bet Rep. Weiner thought exactly the same thing.

Bottom line is

if a married person spends time
alone
with a person of the opposite gender
and they start talking with each other and discussing anything it WILL eventually lead to kvetching about each others spouses or partners and
the ball goes a rolling. The 'horror' of each nonperfect relationship will be magnified and expanded with each conversation.
Men'll feel like the OW's H is truly evil and he must protect her gentle spirit.
Women'll feel like the OM's W is truly shrewish and nonfeminine and he deserves so muchmore and only she is capable of fullfilling his manliness properly.

Emotional needs get more and more met and its off and running.

So.

Time alone with person of opposite gender=a horrible mess. A big, cruel, horrible mess.

But you live in a fool's paradise if you think that having a great marriage will always protect you from somebody cheating.

That's me:

Never Guessed
777 TryingToFinda Way
Fools Paradise, NY

But if you are right, my pessimistic (fatalistic?) friend, then TAKE ME NOW, LORD!

What you are employing is sophistry ("subtly deceptive reasoning or argumentation"), and I am going to call you on it this time.

You typed: ...you cannot control what your spouse does - what any other person does... as if by stating that, you present it as fact that that is what I said. I did not.

What I said was to the effect that: Each spouse, with enough knowledge, commitment, and effort, should be able to construct a program to satisfy the EN's of the partner. Such EN-satisfaction will not "control" (your word, NEVER mine) the opposite number, but it should work toward influencing the partner's commitment to the union, and disinclination to cheating, by reducing (or, ideally, eliminating) the search for EN-satisfaction by that partner from sources outside of the marital union.

Now, limiting your rebuttal to the words in blue italic, do you disagree with that position?

BTW:

My XWH actually said, "Things were good at home so I thought it wouldn't hurt anything."
This was a man who betrayed you, deceived you, and you present HIS self-serving words as supporting your position? Really?

Yes.


Yes. That was exactly the point.

_________________________

And yes, I do know what that means. For anyone who doesn't: it's funny, but it isn't terribly polite.

I agree with the addiction to attention thing that KR mentioned. It can also be described as " approbation lust". The constant uncontrollable drive for attention and admiration

I don't think this is totally correct. The spouse helped to create the conditions which had an unfavorable outcome. The specific choice made by the WS was to cheat and that was totally their doing, but the other spouse needs to be honest about what state the marriage was in. Rarely is it the case that the BS was a total angel and did everything possible.

One possibility is that the BS ignored the needs of their spouse. This would be like never doing maintenance on your house. Eventually something bad happens like the roof leaks. Did the homeowner cause the leak? No, but their inattention to the situation meant that eventually something bad would happen.

Another possibility is that the BS actively did something to emotionally hurt the other spouse. This would be like cutting in front of someone at the motorcycle rally. The specific choice of how the person behind responds is up to them (yell, punch, etc), but the person cutting in line had a part in creating the situation.

So while the choice to cheat is up to the WS, the BS had some role in creating the conditions that led to the bad situation. Other outcomes could be anger, divorce, counseling, etc.

How many of us, as BS's had ALL of our ENs being met during our marriage? How many of us made the choice to have an A? That is why I agree that ENs not being met, can NOT be the reason that a WS makes the decision to have an A. Having poor boundaries around members of the opposite sex is the single most reason why WSs have an A. If you have strong boundaries around the opposite sex, then even when your ENs are not met, you still won't have an A. At least that's what happened in my sitch. I wasn't exactly feeling the EN meeting in my marriage as well, but I had, and still have STRONG boundaries. No A for this girl.

Not necessarily. All the need meeting in the world cannot compensate for poor boundaries because someone can always come along and meet needs BETTER than the spouse. Even in marriages where needs are being met, there are affairs when the WS has poor boundaries. It is important to understand that an affair is NEVER the fault of the victim. It is always the fault of the WS. The BS may or may not be partly responsible for an unstable marriage. And of course, the WS is also responsible for the state of the marriage.

Many, many people in our culture think nothing of having opposite sex friendships or securing traveling jobs, which is usually how affairs begin. They say it "can't happen" to them. Affairs even happen in marriages where the BS does a GREAT job of meeting the WS' needs. My current marriage is one example. [in my last marriage, I will say honestly say that my refusal to meet my H's needs made him vulnerable to the first skank who was willing]

What Scotty and Mel just said is absolutely correct

You can be Christ on a cracker and be crucified because of selfish behavior of a wayward minded spouse
The main purpose on this forum is to help those so hurt or have become so imbalanced that they have turned upon themselves and make the situation worse for recovery of themselves and Thier marrige

NG your killin me lol
Yeah you can do everything right and still get screwed royally it's still the right things though

You are missing a vital point concerning the EN's of a marriage. It is called reality!!!

Falling on love always takes the same pattern. An affair is the same process. One need is met and due to the wayward's poor boundaries more needs are met because more courting takes place, i.e. emotional affair first.

Most go into the marriage have no clue what an EN is and how to fill it because courting usually begins with a connection to one EN (physical or conversation). The dating cycle usually starts out by getting one need met, and then as you continue to get to know each other more needs get met until you are in love. As the marriage continues the couple fall into their own places with each other. Add some kids to the picture and your marriage gets put on the backseat. Who has time to look hot and sexy when you haven't slept in months, spit-up is in your hair, and your only conversation for the day is with a two year old and newborn baby.

F'ing waywards I just want to kick their a$$e$!!!

Give me one marriage especially when kids are involved that is perfect all the time. Marriage and emotions are cyclical and change depending on life. Marriage is more than love it is also committment, devotion, and hard work.

Give me one married couple who hasn't hated their spouse one time or another during their marriage? It is nature, and God even tells us how all these emotions will take place throughout life and throughout the marriage.

When you are up night after night breastfeeding your new born, pulling the hair back so your three year old can vomit and the next night it is the five year olds turn, and your spouse is out of the country for work at the time, well let's just say being in love with my husband at that time wasn't happening.

Just because I was pizzed off (actually utterly exhausted) by my reality of being a mom, it still didn't make me want to go out and have an affair.

I also think there is more to an affair and that is the addiction part. I think for some they have temporary addiction (usually is broken at exposure or shortly after the affair goes physical) but for others the affair feeds a deep rooted addiction that takes longer to break or it is never broken. I.E. the forever wayward.

Case after case on this forum shows waywards coming here for help deep rooted in their fog, but along with that fog is also serious depression, anxiety, fear, hopefully shame, and guilt.

You can see all the signs of the addiction and the vets go about helping them as if they are helping a drunk who just got to treatment.

I firmly believe my husband's porn use over the years contributed to the his boinking and shacking up with his (Porn look-a-like) colleague, aka POSOW. She used the DiD on him to be her boyfriend while deployed, and the attention lit up his chemicals and he was hooked. You can see it in all the evidence. My intuition burns with the knowledge she used him for her needs only and could care less his life has literally burnt to the ground. My WH still sees POSOW everday because they work together and are still deployed. His addiction is getting worse and worse.

In the past three months you can see his demeanour change and his depression and anger skyrocket. He is so unrecognizable. He is feeling something and it doesn't look like it is a good feeling.

There you go - DiD and Affirmation and poor boundaries got the two of them into bed, but the addiction has made it explode, and now you can see the awful effects of this affair.

It starts as a fantasy reality and has now turned to reality depression.

F'ing waywards just suck!!!

In my case, the first OW was a DID (of her own making). She WAS wealthy, had been married for years, and they had a couple of kids. She was definitely a pampered wife-- member of the country club, world travel, the best of the best. Then she decided to cheat and tossed it all away.

She thought her BH would roll over and give her what she wanted, she didn't expect him to fight back. He was a powerful sophisticated corporate guy and had the resources to fight back. She was terrified of him and told my H that he would hurt her if he found out what she was doing (straight out of the wayward manual). I could kick myself for missing the perfect opportunity to expose her when I saw him at the courthouse. I didn't know about MB back then and I listened to my H who begged me not to say anything.

Living on her own, she went nuts and her reputation went in toliet. She was getting over $6000/month in support and she blew it all-- botox, drinking, partying, drugs, whatever she wanted. People in her social circle began to snub her and she eventually fell so far down that she ended up in jail for DWI and then finally lost custody of her children. She used to ask my H to buy wine for her because she couldn't risk being seen buying it herself.

She met my H in the middle of her craziness at a bar one night. She had my H (and other men) falling all over themselves to rescue her. She had no boundaries and her behavior was outrageous. It was pathetic to see this middle-aged woman acting like a 20 yr-old. I felt really bad for her children who got to witness a lot of it.

So she was a different breed of DID who thought she deserved whatever she wanted. Instead she ended up getting what she deserved and not what she wanted.

Sorry --- that's what I feel for those posters who claim little/no control over their marriages' futures. Evidently more folks than I would have expected have decided to just be "passengers" on the journey, instead of helping steer the course.

I know EXACTLY which EN's I failed to meet in the several years leading up to my wife's EA. I mean to say, I know them NOW. I gained that information here. I had no idea that my lack of attention to those needs of hers would result in her looking elsewhere for them. Had I the knowledge THEN that I have NOW, I would have moved heaven and Earth to attend to those EN's, and not sit around hoping her "boundaries" would be adequate.

Like I said, I could not live comfortably if I believed that I did NOT have substantial ability to reduce the chances of another such affair. To those of you who feel that there is no point in attending to those ENs, and choose to sit back and blame "poor boundaries", when the preferable goal would be to have the boundaries never approached.......well, the roulette wheel you're playing will someday stop on "busted".

I have mentioned before that I "left" another site when my observations that virtually every thread became an OW-bashing pity-party at the BW sorority house rendered me persona non grata. Accordingly, I'll leave this thread before the same thing occurs. To those who disagreed with my take on things, I'll wish, "Good Luck". To those who agreed with me, I'll wish, "A favorable result from your efforts."

WOW this is exactly what happened with my husband.

the other woman in my marriage was a gold digger, her husband told me that she used to tell him that she deserved better in this life and he could sit back and watch her get that........
what she didn't realize is that 1/2 of what he had would go to me........
but they are thick as a brick sometimes.......
in the end all her plans fell through, my husband has actually admitted that it might be true that she was looking for a better life for herself and her children.
he was sucked in by the biggest trick in the book...........
he was no angel himself he could have said no...........adultery is so hurtful .......it changes who we all are.............
OW/OM hardly ever win, I think they deserve everything they get and all the pain they feel. sorry if that sounds mean...............
my husband is to blame because he made the promises to me, but we all are responsible for living an honest life.........
It is so sad that a little attention turns them into idiots............
neverguessed is right, my side of the fence did need cleaning up and I am making sure I am not ignoring things now.........I have learned from my mistakes, I only hope the OW/OM can learn from their mistakes and of course the Waywards need to work on their weaknesses as well.............

Well thank goodness that doesn't happen here -- "virtually every thread became an OW-bashing pity-party at the BW sorority house".

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I was not meeting my DH's ENs and he wasn't meeting mine when all this went down for us. But regardless, my H's decision to cheat was his alone. I could have done the same thing, but I didn't.

Fortunately, we know better now (about ENs, care and protection, and more) and recognize that our marriage takes serious work. If my DH ever decided to cheat again, he wouldn't be able to claim it's because he's not getting his ENs met. It'd be a purely selfish choice and I'd be gone.

Well please do not patronize ME or the other bw's here NG. This ain't a sorority house. I should know. Spent lots of time in one during college for about 4 years

This forum is the club NOBODY wanted to get initiated into.

Anyhow know I'm late chiming in on this one but seriously. There simply ARE those who have poor boundaries and crave hero worship. Which is NOT admiration. Hero worship does not equate to admiration which is a top male EN.

I gave my xwh PLENTY of that admiration and was good at meeting needs. But he was one of those who simply felt he was ENTITLED TO MORE than one woman.

There are just some guys like that. Nothing I could have done would have changed a thing, and I DID 100 PERCENT TAKE CONTROL of my situation and future. So I take quite a bit of offense at your [censored]-umption. We all know what those 3 little letters at the beginning of that word means.

I was not some blind man bashing woman who went thru what I did. It was gut wrenching and I fought his affair addiction every step of the way.

We WERE indeed quite happy, just built a custom home, small child (where my other focus was besides on him), business was at the time great, we had no worries and were actively planning our next child and had just come back from a week in the bahamas when all h*ll broke loose.

So sell that fallacy elsewhere.

THERE ARE THE ENTITLED ones who cheat. And YES THERE ARE TONS OF PREDATORY OW out there. Tons. And they play the DID card and the men who buy it are weak, simply weak.

I most CERTAINLY did not cause my xh to cheat nor was I deficient in any way as a wife either.

The DiD card, when played by the predatorty ow, simply makes the wh feel like the KISH and his EGO MAKES HIM THINK HE'S THAT, but really it's just old fashioned hero worship she feeds him, along with a pile of crap in small doses over time.

Meanwhile, there was an attractive, loving wife probably pushing a grocery cart wearing a ponytail, no makeup, wearing a t shirt and yoga pants out getting food for the family. She in no way is aware that her husband has been getting hit on either at the office or when he goes out with his friends once after work to grab a beer. That was me, that wife. The day before I found MB.

All it took was a woman at a bar to zero in on somebody. Somebody she "heard" had alot of $ and somebody she thought was cute. She saw the ring. Heard from a friend he was married with a "nice" wife and was happy. A remote friend of a friend told the ow that about me. But she played. And pushed. And it went from an innocent meeting when he was playing darts after work with some work colleagues to her later that week stopping by his office (he gave her his business card, and to other people at her table too, some were guys). She HUNTED him down. Forced things, and it happened.

I had no idea. Never saw it coming. Like I told the group in divorce recovery, it was literally as if somebody pulled a rug out from under me and I fell and hit my head.

The sooner that people, both men and women, understand that yes there are predatory OW and OM out there, the more they can maybe talk about this with their spouses and work ahead of time on EN's, but you cannot MAKE somebody have good boundaries. That is a promise THEY THEMSELVES must keep to their marriage.

You can lead a horse to water...you know the rest.

The thing I would like everyone to understand most:

People don't have affairs because they want to replace their Betryaed Spouse.

They have affairs because they want an ADDITION to their Betrayed Spouse.

The goal of every cheater is to have both the security and benefit of marriage AND all the fun and excitement of dating AT THE SAME TIME.

If it wasn't, they would simply leave and get a divorce. But they don't. Instead, they lie and lie and lie in an effort to keep the spouse from finding out so that their double life can go on unimpeded. Cheaters don't leave until their lies collapse and the marriage is so damaged that there's nothing left to save.

No amount of meeting ENs will prevent this when somebody gets it in their head that they can have BOTH.

Idiot Rep. Weiner is the poster boy for this. He has a beautiful and accomplished new bride that he claims to adore, and yet was still sexting bimbos every chance he got. You can bet he thought his life was fantastic - he had the best of both worlds! - until the day the lies collapsed.

Please, Betrayed Spouses, understand that your WS is not trying to "choose" between you and someone else. They want BOTH and they will do everything in their power to KEEP both for as long as they possibly can.

Of course you should still make your best effort to meet your spouse's ENs - that's how you have a great marriage. But meeting ENs will not keep a cheater from deciding they deserve double and triple helpings of ENs, and THAT is what cheating is all about.

Yup, They might say that they want to replace them when they get caught, and pretend that was the reason/excuse, and when pushed the might even leave to pursue the fantasy, but in the long run the chickens come home to roost, they were selfish and wanted it all. Plus more, just like she says.

Some snap out of it, some stay stubbornly committed to thier folly for a while, and some go for good, but none of them 10 years later say it was a good idea to cheat.

If you have the integrity to say, "Ok I'm done" and move out, well thats one thing, to lie and go behind someones back to a lover, thats sleazy and selfish. Its just that simple, no self respecting adult has any excuse to have an "affair" and sneak around behind someones back. Note self-respecting...


NG I think that it is possible to affair proof your marriage if both partys are honest about thier present and projected needs, roles, future plans, heck if they are honest about everything.

There are men and women who get married with unrealistic expectations from the other partner, and sometimes they expect more than can be given. If you happen to be linked up with one of those, emotions can easily flare and become rebelion, anger, and bitterness that gets turned into ,say,,"Well they promised me ..so-n-so..and now all bets are off, I can do what I want now!"

Thats when you can end up with one pulling the weight, and the other laying in the back of the wagon sulking and feeling sorry for themselves. They sit around thinking about thier needs until thats all they see, themselves.

If they jump ship or not, they are prime for an affair, and the needs of the mule pulling the wagon are growing also. Who will end up being the BS? The one who will not justify lieing or cheating to get what they want. Not what they need, unless thier percieved needs include lieing and cheating as part of getting what they want.

In other words, they want to lie and cheat to get what they want...yeah, its that selfish and they like it.

Some people NG are just that crooked in thier head and heart, and would rather use machivellian<sp> means to get something than to be straight up front about it. I guess they think there is something "special" or romantic about it. But that some people.

You can affair proof a marrige and still fall victim to someone like that, because they can raise the bar higher and higher and even manufacture problems to get thier "drama fix" to justify lies and deciet.

In the end it comes down to who refuses to play the game and cheat, lie, hide, steal when things get skinny in the needs filling dept, and what the real needs other have in thier heart that they are not sharing because,,well they want two mates?..never work?..never give or contribute?..the list of selfish needs goes on..

Of couse openess and honesty never seem to make that list..

Huh? Who said that?

NG, I also didn't see anyone say that we weren't supposed to meet each others ENs. All we were saying was that when someone has an A, it isn't because they weren't having their needs met at home, it's because they had weak boundaries and allowed someone other than their spouse, meet their ENs. If you are meeting your wife's ENs, but someone else can meet them better, and she has weak boundaries, she will have another A. That is why STRONG boundaries are most important.

Also, when someone suggests that the BS not meeting ENs is why a WS had an A, it almost absolves the WS for making that decision to have an A. If they put half the efforts into their MARRIAGE as they did the AFFAIR, they would actually have a better marriage.

Do you and you wife have friendships with people of the opposite sex? If you do, it is very dangerous to your marriage, regardless of how well you are meeting each others ENs. Just saying.

This is very interesting.

Here is a link to how STEVE HARLEY sees this:
LINK

It's so important, I'm going to begin a new thread so more people can read what Steve Harley says..

Aw, man. I missed a H-E-7-7 of a party.

Anyway, I'd get over the KISA idea. It's not about being a "hero." It's much, much simpler than that. It's about ease of access due to difference in status. All status is, is people saying "yes."

That's why "big-wigs" and "high-rollers" get comped crap all the time - it's companies and businesses coat-tailing on status to improve their bottom line.

Status = opportunity.

So executives will cheat with their secretaries. Managers will cheat with their employees, and burger flippers will cheat with crack addicts.

Status.


Besides, it's the ladies that do better as a KISA. We need you to save us from our fugly selves.

Again.

Spend any time alone with someone of the opposite gender, anywhere (office, resturant, bus, sidewalk) and talk with them and

opportunity is created to cross the line.

Who will resist the opportunity?

Someone who doesn't ever spend any time alone or alone like (you could be alone in a crowd too...like a line to buy a ticket, at a party in a corner, etc)

Who will HONOR THEIR VOW? That is the question.

And yes, my xwh was one of those guys who had people nodding yes to everything he once said. Not anymore.

And when you have opportunity and poor boundaries for one nanosecond it can happen.

Combine that imho, with the predatory ow and om out there, and you have a recipe for a perfect storm. They are the catalyst (skank hos and manginas) for this unholy union to be created.

Who do they vow to Peachy?. They create God out of thier own image they are comfortable with at the time. How big is thier God? Are they even afraid of the consequences of not listening to him as they grow?,(ah thats right, they don't have to grow now, they are married).

I knew it was going to be rough, and I promised God to honor those vows, and yes I was afraid of what would happen if I didn't. Guess thats why I could keep them and also why there was so much pain when I was betrayed, I was only human and I admit it.

I did fall into another relationship after I left the first time, out of anger, bitterness, lonliness, and confusion, and that is why I can attest to how it wears thin when you get down to the importance of REAL life and Children, which if you are a Man in my book, you put before you in everything, even your pain.

But when I came back and recommitted to the marriage I recommitted to God also trusting he would get me through with minimal colateral damage. He made good on that promise BTW.

I also like the mangina thing lol. Its a perfect example of what happens to men when they get so vain, Vanity is a killer.

Just pointing out that you all are in 100% agreement with each other.