Marriage Builders
Posted By: NB28 Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/18/10 12:34 AM
Hello everyone
Im here once again to seek advice and a way forward. I would like to start with a quickish recap to introduce myself to the newbies and remind the vets of my thread.

Me/BS 28 (29 in a month ahhhh)
WS 30
DS's x 4 ages 2,4,6 and 9 years old
Married since 2000 (10 years)
EA September 2008
PA November 2008
DDay November 2008
Manic exposure happened immediately after DDay and I think I covered everyone including random strangers and anyone who would listen.
Joined MB October 2009 (1 year post d day)
Plan A - kind of happened before MB
Plan B - Suggested many times by MB members but not been lucid enough to co operate with MB's good advice
Coaching with Steve 7-8 times good results then major relapse of WS emotional progress
Books read, SAA, HNHS (the one for parents).

Recap:
Ws had A with a co worker (a particularly nasty speciemen of humanity as he was the 4th or 5th married man she has had A with in the workplace), I discovered affair thanks to google history feature where I discovered he was googling hotels and confronted him he crumbles slowly but surely first telling me they were friends then 24 hours later after I discovered who OW was and traced her on FB contacted her asking her to kindly respect our marriage and not to sneack off in allyways with my H in the middle of the night to talk etc (at this point i had total reassurance from WS that nothing phisical had happened they just talked all that time) got a swift reply from OW confirming PA in gory details (had sex twice in a hotel), WS confronted and worst day of my life followed.
WS ended A straight away (thanks to MAJOR exposures, mums, dads, work, every single one who knew her on FB etc) she ofcourse played the "he told me he was separated card" that didnt really stick due to her past colourful history that includes DNA test for her child whom had a possibility of fathers including 3 married coworkers who had to take the test and. Exposure helped show OW in her true colours and burst the fantasy bubble pretty well (I cant reccomend exposure enough to anyone going through this its an affair ender!). Post D Day I was a zombie and then a monster, first i was so sad i couldnt function then i was so furious I couldnt think straight and thats the way things stayed for a while. WS carried on working with OW which totally killed me and any chance of recovery, as a last stab in the dark Googled marriage help and found MB.

MB Journey so far helped as in WS was told to get new job, made excused, then with help and suggestions from MB got him new job. WS left work with OW January 2010 started new job March 2010 (there is a long application process hence the delay). Things started to get better after he left work with OW and he started to knuckle down with R. Had coaching with Steve and was on the right path, then went away for 4 weeks training 4 hours drive away and came back totally regressed.
Had lots of ups and downs, lots of arguments, brake up moments and just got so exhasperated and fed up that I just stopped trying to get a good marriage and just concentrated on my personal recovery. Abstained from MB due to inability to cope with the reality and feeling overwhealmed by failure.
Also for the sake of total disclosure I had EA 11 years ago with coworker, before I married WS and only a few months into our relationship, there is no excuse for my part however there is a reason and that was that I was scared of my feeling for WS at the time and their intensity and stupidly being only 18 I got involved with boss. I ended EA 2 months into it and have apologised for my mistake ever since.


Update on how things are now
Have hit a point where I have gathered my energy and have made sufficient personal recovery to attempt to get a Good marriage not just an okayish one. WS has been good on many levels like taking on alot more responsibility for kids/house and finances, he is not wayward in the sense that he is cheating or tempted to but in the sense that he is still stuck in a world of denial and lets just move on from what happened. He has not apologised for A (a must for me to start recovery) has stonewalled anything to do with MB due to his warped ideas of what plan A is and how i didnt execute it towards him fully upon discovery of A and just generally happy he feels he has been let off he hook as i dont mention A anymore. He is genuinley happy with the way things are right now he makes comments like "see our life isnt that bad, we have a good family" etc. He has stonewalled meeting EN's as he says that he does not know how to meet my EN's. Coaching wise, about 8 weeks ago follwing an argument about how I was just fed up etc he had coaching with Steve and reported that Steve was not going to be able to help us as I was too emotionally intelligent for him and that I felt the pain of an A more than the average BS therefore there was nothing he could do to help (I beleive this is total bull as I cant see Steve saying that but WS got what he wanted coaching got dropped off the list of possible sources of help to recover a good M).
Right now I want to tackle the EN's I want to get more from this stale relationship. I feel that plan B could help to nudge WS but he is a member of MB therefore aware of what it involves and things arent as bad as they have been they just arent what i want from a M. Aby ideas on where do i go from here and how do i get WS to co operate??

Vets - Feel free to add any info that i have forgotten i am just trying to give a recap.


Posted By: Gamma Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/18/10 12:51 AM
BH28,

Just a thought, how did your H feel about your EA, men often don't express what they feel and go on without repairing the damage, that was me.

Women want to forget completely what they have done and I've only been asked about it once by my W.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/18/10 01:31 AM
Hi Gamma

I didnt tell him about the EA until 2 years after it had happened. He was angry and became posessive both very understandible and even now 11 years on I am open and give him full access to all emails phone records etc and tell him EVERYTHING that happens so he has learned to trust me again. I still apologise for what I did however dont like to compare it to what he did as in my opinion i was young and we were together a very short time when it happened, his PA was 8 years into the marriage and was phisical and very malicious. I truly learned from my EA as I have not repeated it despite having thoughts of revenge on what he did to me however I dont want anyone else, I feel i would loose all self respect if i did to him what he did to me. And most of all I never want my kids to look at me the way they WILL look at him one day when they realise what has happened to us.
How long you have been together has nothing to do with you early EA. Work on your own wayward fog--it seems you've retained some of it.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/18/10 01:50 AM
Karmarose, please explain? to me it is a clear cut issue are you telling me that an 18 year old girl who emotionally cheats on a boyfriend of a few months is in the same league as a father of 4 who sneaks off to hotel rooms to have sex with a coworker leading to cheating on his wife of 8 years and betraying his kids?

the fact that i dont think they are in the same league doesent mean i am retaining waywardness. the fact that i have been faithful and remorseful and more aware of my weaknessess over the past 11 years and not repeated the offence should be clearance enough to expel me from the wayward zone. Sorry im touchy about this subject but it always seams like its used to justify me being cheated on and thats really not fair nor reasonable.
I apologize, I did not realize that you were not married at that point. Misread as usual.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/18/10 02:04 AM
No we got marriead a year later and i can honestly say i had the maturity level of a frogspawn, i guess thats why we dont see many 18 year old waywards trying to MB their way into recovery on here.
I know the age is not supposed to matter but to me it does because the general maturity and life experience that is needed to survive an affair is just not developed well enough in the majority of 18 year olds. If there is anything else i can do now to make amends for my behaviour from back then i would still do it as i could never apologise enough for that betrayal
Posted By: Gamma Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/18/10 01:59 PM
BH28,

I didnt tell him about the EA until 2 years after it had happened. He was angry and became posessive

I understand your feeling that what you did does not compare with what he did, however this might not be how your H feels and if you want to fix your relationship you need to understand him. He may also feel deep down that it was also a PA.

Before my wifes "EA" with OM2, my wife had an "EA" with OM1, my then best friend, very early on when we were dating. Before the OM1 EA, I felt that our relationship was perfect, after I never exactly trusted her as I did before.

I will also say that since I have never responded with a revenge affair of any kind I still feel that the scale between us is imbalanced. There is a sense among some men that the longer an injustice has gone unpunished the greater the retribution should be, the years multiply the response and do not diminish it.

Did your H confront the OM or expose him to his wife?

God Bless
Gamma
Brutally Honest--maybe I missed it, but did this recap talk about your H beating the daylights out of you recently? Seems like that's a big issue with your situation--even if the police do drop the case, as you mentioned in the other thread in recovery forum.
G & KR:

Lets stop with paying attention to the deck chairs, and start dealing with the gash in the side of the ship, OK?

She was dating, and had and EZ with her boss at 18. And at 18 she didn't know how to deal with it. THese are deck chairs.

It may have created problems later in her marriage. Her WH may not trust her, completly. So, that may be the start of the gash in the hull of this marriage. But her WH and his PA/EA and lackidasical attepts at recovery are tearing the hull apart.

Go read BH28 earlier threads, both on SAA and the recovery board.

She has counselled with SH, and got something good out of it. Her WH, on the other hand, has only gotten:

"Why haven't you plan "A"ed me?"
"Your too smart, and I am OK, so get over it"
"Why should I meet YOUR EN'S? That sounds like WORK!"

There will be a time and place for BH28 to work thru what happened earlier in the marriage. Her WH will use it as a crutch and a club to remove the focus from HIS actions as often as possible. Please do not support HIM in these efforts.

He has posted her also.

He DOESN'T get it YET.

Lets provide BH28 with ways that she can work this problem WH into something that may be worthy of being married to.

One, he needs to cure his rectal-cranium inversion, and start PLAN Aing HER. She is the wounded party, and HE needs to start making amends. She needs to establish her boundaries as to WHAT she will accept as proper behavior from him. This is of prime importance right now.

HE thinks everything is just peachy. But it is destroying BH28 with anger and resentment.

Establish your boundaries, BH28. What are your top 5 EN's, and how would you like your WH to address them?

LG
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/18/10 11:25 PM
Gamma - OM from my EA was single and was 21 so we were both young, WS did not expose or confront OM as i didnt tell him about it till 2 years after it had happened, I left that job before my son was born so NC was in place when we got married and our relationship became serious and we got married. Thats all there is to the EA I had. I am happy to answer anything else you would like to know about it but I would appreciate any help on current marital situation. I would like to add that I am proud of myself for not having retaliated to WS A with a revenge A, (WS spouse even suggested i should sleep with someone else o get back at him in his extreame fog days) Altough it would have made me feel better for 5 mins I dont want that, WS is the first man and only man I have ever shared myself with and thats the way I want to keep it.

Imanot - I didnt add the details of the incident because I want to move forward. He is not a wife beater, it happened once and I dealt with it appropriately, I dont want to be or feel like a victim it gets me nowhere feeling sorry for myself, I want to find a good concrete way forward. I am almost scared to say that he did attack and assault me, he has a really gentle nature but when frustrated lashes out as he bottles things in, he has hit inanimate objects on those occasions but never me until now. Can this count as post A wayward behaviour or is it in the dealbraker category and I should just give up on a family?


Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/19/10 12:03 AM
lousygolfer - you are an angel you have summed up how i feel and the situation perfectly, I can carry on talking about what happened and what I did etc but at what point do I get to move past this and get the help I need now. I am frustrated and just super overwhealmed by faliure, this whole process has been one step forward and 50 backwards.
As many MBrs can probably understand when you think your in Recovery and then you find out its false recovery as many times as I feel I have how do you trust the real thing?

I am glad you asked about what my EN's are as I am starting to feel like an unreasonable monster when WS just goes on and on about how he doesent understand/feel able to and knows how to meet my EN's I would appreciate some insight as to weather my EN's are reasonable or not.

Top 5 ENS

1) Affection
2) Conversation
3) Honesty and openess
4) Family commitment
5) Admiration

1) Affection H needs to find the words and gestures to express his love to me. He needs to reassure me he does love me once in a while without being asked or harassed about it (WS spouse screamed about how he wasnt in love with me anymore when we were at a friends house during A, before i discovered A the humiliation still hurts). He needs to remind me he loves me in actions that I understand not just promising things that I have heard before and not keep those promises. I should add that WS is cuddly, kissy and phisically affectionate however I interpret this as wanting SF when often it just him expressing affection.

2) Conversation - Needs to learn to bring u difficult issues without promting or hiding or drama. Needs to keep me updated on his emotional progress and what he is thinking (mainly when he is thinking good things like my wife looks nice in that top kind of thing) without me having to ask and chase. He says he thinks those things and does feel things but doesent share them. Ie i could spend 3 hours grooming and dressing up, come downstairs he would look at me think i look good and not actually say it. I guess what I am going on about is COMMUNICATION he expects me to read his mind and know how he feels thinks.

3) Honesty and Openess- He needs to stop censuring himseld because he predicts how i would react and what i would feel and say so he doesent tell me things, I find this so frustrating and have gone out of my way to react unexpectedly towards revelations in order to show him that I do not think or react the way he thinks i do and i rather get honesty and openess rather than be resented for him having to censor hiself and become resentful because he thinks he knows how i would react to things. Dont make promises he knows he cant keep. I rather he said i will get back to you on that one than yeah I will definitley do this and never actually do it and when i ask him why did he get my hopes up and not do the thing he promised to do and why put me through that the answer is always the same " i knew i couldnt do it but wanted to try" its like being lied to all over again.

4) Family commitment have more family days out and do more fatherly things with the kids like reading, homework, outside play etc. Often when i suggest taking the kids out he has stonewalled me by saying "little one is going to be a nightmare, hey will misbehave, I wont enjoy the outing as they will need watching closely if we are at beach/woods/venue etc" the few times I have dragged him out the kids have been so grateful that they behaved impeccably yet he keeps saying the same thing. We have 4 boys youngest one is 2 they are kids not prisoners!
He does not help with homework and reading especially with the oldest two who now are very behind in school and I am mortified by this, have enlisted a good friend to tutor them as I work in the evenings and cant give them consistant support.
I have to say WS has made a good effort regarding outings with kids, he has participated well in day outings and I am proud of him for that. Just needs to buckle down with the homework/reading part.

5) Admiration - I work so hard everyday and the workload is still relentless, I have no mum/dad/siblings (twin brothers who are 13) to be proud of me. I need him to be proud of me when I do something he admires. Due to my own insecurities H needs to take time to tell me when he feels admiration, he needs to make me feel good about myself. I get alot of chriticism from him and some well deserved but i need constructive chriticism where i am not always just told the negative but the positive too, I take whatever chriticism he says so much to heart i go out of my way to change it frustrates me but these days i feel like i know exactly what i am doing wrong and little about what i am doing right.


do these EN's seam resonable?
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/19/10 01:27 PM
Before I throw my 2 cents in let me just say - his anger and abuse is absolutely NOT ok. At the very least you must insist on anger management classes. Violence tends to escalate, next time it WILL be worse. You cannot brush off his behavior, it must be addressed head on - he needs some real consequences from his behavior. In fact, all of his current behavior reflects that he has had to bear very little consequences for his actions over the course of his whole life.

To your previous post:
Yes, they seem very reasonable BH. All ENs are reasonable - because they are what you need to feel secure and loved.

Honestly, when you and your WH showed up here his attitude really bothered me. He has hit on this idea of his being 'emotionally backwards' to absolve him of meeting your needs. It's his get out of jail free card. If he slips up - if he doesn't feel like meeting your needs he can just fall back on the fact that he's 'emotionally backwards' and just 'doesn't get it' and deflect your unhappiness back on you with the backhanded compliment of 'you're so emotionally complex/intelligent'.

It's BS.

But as this is the road he's decided to take, perhaps a bit more clarity about your ENs could help. Lemme explain.

Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
1) Affection H needs to find the words and gestures to express his love to me. He needs to reassure me he does love me once in a while without being asked or harassed about it (WS spouse screamed about how he wasnt in love with me anymore when we were at a friends house during A, before i discovered A the humiliation still hurts). He needs to remind me he loves me in actions that I understand not just promising things that I have heard before and not keep those promises. I should add that WS is cuddly, kissy and phisically affectionate however I interpret this as wanting SF when often it just him expressing affection.

When DH and I did the questionnaires, Affection was at the top of both of our lists, and yet we were both not filling each other's needs to the best of our ability. See I love little gifts, so I kept buying him little gifts, he liked hugs and physical affection, which I am not a huge fan of. So we sat down and made lists of "This is what means Affection" to me. I still buy him little gifts, but I also make a point to hit the things on his list as often as I can, and so does he. He's taken to bringing me little flowers he picks on his walk home.

Telling him 'he needs to find the words and gestures' may be too much. Because then he can fall back on 'emotionally backwards' me can't think/find the gestures.

So make a list "This means affection to me". Fill it with as many affectionate acts as you can think of that have meaning to you. Give him the list and tell him you'd like him to do 3 things from that list for you every day.

Stinks, cuz it would be nice if he 'just knew' how to meet this need and 'just did it' but he doesn't and he can't. So he must train himself to do so.

Quote
2) Conversation - Needs to learn to bring u difficult issues without promting or hiding or drama. Needs to keep me updated on his emotional progress and what he is thinking (mainly when he is thinking good things like my wife looks nice in that top kind of thing) without me having to ask and chase. He says he thinks those things and does feel things but doesent share them. Ie i could spend 3 hours grooming and dressing up, come downstairs he would look at me think i look good and not actually say it. I guess what I am going on about is COMMUNICATION he expects me to read his mind and know how he feels thinks.

Something Dr. Harley has recommended is that as soon as the Husband comes home from work he and his wife get together and have conversation, talking about their days. DH and I started doing this early in our marriage. It has taken a while for him to get into this habit and learn HOW I would like the conversation to be, but now, 5 years later, he's a pro at it. It takes practice and encouragement.

Instead of giving him the nebulous goal of "Just communicate with me more" when it is something he isn't naturally inclined to do, say each day at X o'clock we will sit down and discuss our days, our thoughts and our feelings. Then simply ask him to tell you what went on during his day, ask him "What did you think about that?" "How did you feel about that?" After a while he'll answer the questions without even asking.

Over time he will learn that THIS is how you want him to communicate and he may even begin to do it on his own.

Also, if you need to hear what he is thinking, it is ok to ask "How do you think I look?" This helps him to get into the habit of verbalizing this thoughts, which is what you want. When he does, make sure you thank and appreciate him. People respond to positive enforcement.


Quote
3) Honesty and Openess- He needs to stop censuring himseld because he predicts how i would react and what i would feel and say so he doesent tell me things, I find this so frustrating and have gone out of my way to react unexpectedly towards revelations in order to show him that I do not think or react the way he thinks i do and i rather get honesty and openess rather than be resented for him having to censor hiself and become resentful because he thinks he knows how i would react to things. Dont make promises he knows he cant keep. I rather he said i will get back to you on that one than yeah I will definitley do this and never actually do it and when i ask him why did he get my hopes up and not do the thing he promised to do and why put me through that the answer is always the same " i knew i couldnt do it but wanted to try" its like being lied to all over again.

This one I'm a little stuck on, let me think on it a bit.

Perhaps when he says "I knew I couldn't but wanted to try" you thank him for at least WANTING to try - at least he has a desire to do so. Perhaps you can ask him what would have made his efforts successful. Ask him how you could have helped him to succeed in what he committed to do.

Quote
4) Family commitment have more family days out and do more fatherly things with the kids like reading, homework, outside play etc. Often when i suggest taking the kids out he has stonewalled me by saying "little one is going to be a nightmare, hey will misbehave, I wont enjoy the outing as they will need watching closely if we are at beach/woods/venue etc" the few times I have dragged him out the kids have been so grateful that they behaved impeccably yet he keeps saying the same thing. We have 4 boys youngest one is 2 they are kids not prisoners!
He does not help with homework and reading especially with the oldest two who now are very behind in school and I am mortified by this, have enlisted a good friend to tutor them as I work in the evenings and cant give them consistant support.
I have to say WS has made a good effort regarding outings with kids, he has participated well in day outings and I am proud of him for that. Just needs to buckle down with the homework/reading part.

You may want to reread the chapter on FC in HN, HN. Again if you set a SPECIFIC goal for your husband to meet this need you may get more out of him.

Instead of saying "Spend more time with the kids and help with homework" Come together and look at your schedules and determine "I will spend X time each day working with Child A on homework" Schedule the time.

There is an example in HN, HN that is just that. The wife needs FC and the husband has no clue how to meet the need. So they decide that each day, for 2 hours the father will work with the kids on homework. It led to an environment and behavior pattern where the husband was MUCH more involved in the lives of his children.

Quote
5) Admiration - I work so hard everyday and the workload is still relentless, I have no mum/dad/siblings (twin brothers who are 13) to be proud of me. I need him to be proud of me when I do something he admires. Due to my own insecurities H needs to take time to tell me when he feels admiration, he needs to make me feel good about myself. I get alot of chriticism from him and some well deserved but i need constructive chriticism where i am not always just told the negative but the positive too, I take whatever chriticism he says so much to heart i go out of my way to change it frustrates me but these days i feel like i know exactly what i am doing wrong and little about what i am doing right.


Again, specific goal.

When someone comes here with a spouse who has a high need for Admiration, I often suggest they make a list, as long as they can, of what it is they admire about their spouse. At LEAST 10 things. Whenever they think of something else add to it.

Each day they should make an effort to give several compliments off of that list. As this is a list they made, these are things they actually DO admire about their spouse, this just trains them to vocalize what they already think. I also tell them to take every opportunity to admire their spouse to OTHERS.

After a while, they wont need the list, it will become habit to vocalize what you admire when you think of it.

Really - identifying the needs is only the first step, creating the PLAN to meet those needs is just as important. Sometimes our spouses have to be guided into meeting the needs, because just knowing that DH wants affection doesn't tell me he likes hugs over gifts and back rubs over love notes.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/19/10 11:30 PM
Hi Vibressa thanks for the insight just what I needed right now, I am confused at times as to what my own EN's are so glad that I can brake them down a bit more clearly. It really feels like you KNOW my H what you said about not having to take responsibility for his actions over his lifetime so far are so accurate its scary. He is an only child and has loving caring parents who have mollicoddled him and see him as never having done any worng and its always someone elses fault (A wise MIL is more angry at POSOW than WS as her naive little man must have been Corrupted etc) I love my in Laws they are nice people but timid and generally dont like to get involved in anything. It was a shock for his dad to sit him down (at MIL request) and speack to him about A and even then he was mild compared to what he should have said to him. I guess what im trying to say they are simple people in the least offensive way.

Violence wise I did not tell In laws about assault I just didnt want to hurt them and let them know how far the apple had fallen from the tree. I think that H got his due punishment by being taken away in handcuffs for neighbours and friends to whitness, he spent a night in a cell and was treated like a criminal. He now has a criminal record and his job is working for the prison service so thats humiliation enough. He is fully aware of the consequences should he touch me again and in a discussion today admitted he may need anger managment advice (no idea if there is anything relating to anger managment courses in the UK.

Emotional need wise here is where I am at.....

Affection - Great suggestion Vibressa about the list, I dont mind that at all as he does show so much affection but not in a way that I understand/trust. He has not bought me flowers etc in a while and its ok I am a cheap wife (hate gold, diamonds and love silver, love carnations not so much roses) so it isnt hard to please me gift wise I just wish he thought about me more often, when he has his heart set on something for himself like a phone cover a gadget etc he goes to extraordinary lengths to get the money for it and make it happen when it comes to me it always "I dont buy you gifts as finances are tight" line. He is onboard with the list thing so good news so far.

Conversation - by your description of it I can honestly say H does meet EN, we talk about the day everyday, we make plans together and general conversation is very good. What I need is conversation about our relationship and where we stand etc. Over the past 2 years things have been so up and down that i dont knwo where I stand half the time. one minute something is black the next its white. For example today he told me he is annoyed because i want to spend all my time with him and if he goes off to do something for himself i interrupt him. He does have a fair point as in I do like being around him, doing chores together and just being around eachother however as i work 7 days a week I am only around him 4 hours a day inbetween my job and his, if he wants to do his own thing all he has to do is tell me and i do respect that (he agrees that when he tells me i do respect his quest for time out) but he generally sneaks off to do something without telling me and then resents me for not knowing where he has gone to therefore calling out for him and interrupting his thing. He sais he sneaks off as he feels guilty for not spending time with me. Well then dont resent me for calling you when I have no idea that your busy with something else! and why does my husband not want to spend as much time with me as i want to with him?? not nice feeling clingy.

to be continued.....



Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/19/10 11:49 PM
also conversation wise i was told by him today not to ask "how do I look etc" as he wants to tell me before I ask as wants to learn to do it spontaniously and without prompring. so I guess thats progress on his part.

H&O

"This one I'm a little stuck on, let me think on it a bit.

Perhaps when he says "I knew I couldn't but wanted to try" you thank him for at least WANTING to try - at least he has a desire to do so. Perhaps you can ask him what would have made his efforts successful. Ask him how you could have helped him to succeed in what he committed to do."

Yeah happy with that if thats what he said at the start not when nothing he has promised happens and a few weeks later i ask him why he guaranteed that he will do this thing and then he hasnt done it, thats when i get the "i Knew i couldnt ut i wanted to try" almost makes me want to scream!! tell me that from the start and we will be ok!

To clarify an exsample of this would be the following

one thing that I hate about the A is that WS took OW out and had fun, cinema, bowling, Nandos (hate Nandos now). He took charge and decided where to go and when to go and despite poor finances MADE IT HAPPEN. I NEVER EVER EVER get taken out, it infuriates me and makes me very gelous of OW and why does she get taken out and I dont. Told H many times how I felt he constantly says will take you out and NEVER does. So why promise and not do? it just hurts and makes me feel lied to.

Family committment- There has been very significant progress from WS in this area and taking the kids out and interacting more with them, I am hoping that with the new school year starting we can both pull together and find time to invest in the childrens educational needs. I would like to sit down with him and work out a fair plan to tackle this. Last semester i asked him to make sure DS9 does homework on sunday while i am at work he probably followed through with that 1 out of 6 times. Also need him to participate more in kids discipline when i put one in time out he will let him play computer games etc in order for H to get hassle free time then I have to be the bad guy and tell DS that he is in time out and to ignore Dad and not play Computer games as he is in time out. I need him to parent the kids with me even if it is inconveniant to his solitude time.


Admiration - abolutely hate the idea of having to write that list I dont like myself and find it uncomfortable to get any compliments never mind writing down what compliments I want him to give me. that makes my stomac turn just at the thought. I want him to be proud of me and right now im not very proud of myself I have many faults like hiding in my bedroom on days off in order to destress, getting down very easly, lack of energy these things frustrate and I can immagine how they make him feel, so we are discussing a way he can help me out of this dark patch I am in. I just feel overwhealmed by life right now and take every opportunity to hide from it in my room. but if WS asks me to go out to the park or help him with chores i jump at the chance of spending time with him so is an incentive to get me out of the blues, told him that today lets see if anything comes of it.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/20/10 12:34 AM
Dealin with the baby tonight so only have a moment- the admiration list is something HE writes- not you.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/20/10 12:38 AM
thanks vibressa u have really helped, He is taking info at last and we will see if it goes anywhere
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/23/10 10:35 PM
Hey everyone

update time again

Been lurking, reading and learning again on MB, have replied to some posts but feel very inadequate as feel somewhat hipocritical as in giving advice yet not being any good at my own marriage recovery.

Anyway this week has been a little bit hard for me, WS has discovered I am back on MB and is trying to distract me away from it so i can go back to being docile and numb W rather than just seek a good marriage. Looking back on it i find it almost funny how he is trying to get me away from MB as "it does me no good" as it brings up memoried of A, is he really that disillusioned that he thinks I have somehow miracolousely forgotten the A?? with no efford nor work on his part? wow now that would be a miracle.

Anyway had an LB's day on Satuday night, after doing a double shift, being tiered and hungry (dieting) my self restraint and degences were at an all time low and it just hit me. WHY AM I STILL WAITING FOR AN APOLOGY nearly two years after the A??
I am at work, kids are asleep and WS has yet another empty evening to buckle down and do some APOLOGY THINKING. So being down exhausted and just low in general called him during my work brake and just asked what he was up to etc. he said nothing much watching TV and playing computer games and that was it i let rip

I made statements like "if the wound you have left me with by having your affair was phisical i would have bled to death by now waiting for you to even just stick a patch on it" and carried on saying "why do you refuse to care about the one thing I NEED from you in order to start to move on from the A", "how dare you treat me like this after EVERYTHING you have put me trough etc" and finally "Why cant you take ownership of your mistake like a REAL man and stop hiding like a kid, I have no respect for someone who knows he has done wrong yet does not apologise for the wrong"
Just basically ranted at him for 20 mins, I was met by silence that infuriated me even more, when asked why he hadnt even started working/thinking about an apology I was met with the following gemstone "I dont have a good enough reason, I can see any reason I can come up with is just an excuse, I promise to get it done soon etc"

Ok people what do I do with this little boy I seem to be married to?? Can I plan B him and what do I aim to get by plan B'ing him?? I feel like doing total BLACKOUT plan B however scared as he is a runner not a fighter and he might just accept it and move on so I need to feel like the benefits are worth the risk.

I have a big issue with people not apologising for their mistakes, during my childhood i was beated and mistreated many times, tryed to get help from other adults but due to my mothers colture i was told in no uncertain terms adults are always right and they never apologise to children no matter what they do, this still haunts me and its something I struggle with so much that I rather be alone than live with yet another abuser who cant apologise.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/24/10 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
Looking back on it i find it almost funny how he is trying to get me away from MB as "it does me no good" as it brings up memoried of A, is he really that disillusioned that he thinks I have somehow miracolousely forgotten the A?? with no efford nor work on his part? wow now that would be a miracle.


BH you need a plan. Your husband loves to play clueless so you need to lay it all out, step by step.

The longer you go without a plan, the longer you drift without achieving recovery, the more your resentment is fed, the more your Taker becomes a raving lunatic.

You cannot bellow your rage at him and force him into appropriate behavior.

You need to STOP this cycle.

You need to lay out EVERYTHING you need. Your list should include:

A sincere apology.
A plan for meeting your need.
A list of EPs.
A commitment to implement MB to ensure a healthy relationship. This includes more meetings with Steve, and working through the home course. I know it is expensive, you will TOGETHER create a plan to afford it. He should also return here - he was getting great help here.

You give him your list. Tell him THIS is what it is going to take to keep you in this marriage. THIS is what it is going to take to 'get over' this affair. THIS and NOTHING else.

Lay your cards on the table. Be clear with your expectations.

This is your boundary - this is the behavior you will accept, you should accept nothing else.

His reaction to this list will be telling. None of this is unreasonable, none of this is out of line. ALL of this is what you will NEED if you EVER want a chance of breaking this terrible cycle you are in. This has been going on way too long - we're coming up on 2 years. You should be WAY past this place in recovery.

If he refuses to do the work of recovery - then it's time to implement Plan B. That involves getting him out of the house, finding an Intermediary, and if necessary filing for separation (not sure how that works, legally).

Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/25/10 07:59 PM
Hi Vibressa i am really grateful that you are taking the time and advising me right now, I feel so foggy (not in a wayward sense) and your post are like lightbeams guiding the way so thank you for that.

I did have a strong plan in place for so long but got so overwhealmed by faliure I just lost the energy to fight him anymore and once in a few months I will struggle to the point where i will lash out verbally to try and get things back on track and I agree that is not helpful.

This is my Ideal world Plan

1)WS gives me well deserved apology
2)WS gets back to reading and learning from MB
3)Meet EACHOTHERS emotional needs, however I feel that I need him to start meeting mine first (even just for a week) before I can open up enough to meet his.
4)POJA in place (we are not doing to bad on that one)
5)WS to show regular consistant commitment to marriage not one week wants to work on it the next he is taking a rest etc
6)I need to get myself emotionally sorted, see councelor again and get a good plan for mental health recovery


whats EP? by the way

coaching wise things are beyond ridiculous finances wise, no spare money for childrens school shoes right now never mind coaching and we are both hard workers, he has well paid full time job and I have 2 part time jobs(even with my chronic fatugue syndrome) however we are still mega struggling and it gets me down as I feel if I had the money our marriage could be much better because we could get coaching but the fact is we dont so I have to live with that and do my best to use MB on its own for now.

He is such a manipulator and has passive agressive tendancies to boot so its very difficult to pin him down to do anything he doesent want to do like MB and getting a GOOD MARRIAGE as far as he is concerned that would be WORK and he beleives totally that he has learned enough from the A never to repeat it again, so what about the good marriage part. Does he think that never cheating again is going to be the only solution to all our problems?

Right now I am in mega dark place friday night we are going to a friends wedding and as its not local to our town we will be spending the night in a hotel (MAJOR TRIGGER ALERT) already having panic attacks at being in hotel with him. Really dont want to be as to me now hotels are dirty seedy places affairs happen and i dont want to go anywhere near on. Any suggestions? Please help.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
I did have a strong plan in place for so long but got so overwhealmed by faliure I just lost the energy to fight him anymore and once in a few months I will struggle to the point where i will lash out verbally to try and get things back on track and I agree that is not helpful.

You are falling into a pattern of Giving because you are afraid Negotiating will not work out. So you give and give until your Taker comes to your defense.

You have to STOP.

Quote
This is my Ideal world Plan

1)WS gives me well deserved apology
2)WS gets back to reading and learning from MB
3)Meet EACHOTHERS emotional needs, however I feel that I need him to start meeting mine first (even just for a week) before I can open up enough to meet his.
4)POJA in place (we are not doing to bad on that one)
5)WS to show regular consistant commitment to marriage not one week wants to work on it the next he is taking a rest etc
6)I need to get myself emotionally sorted, see councelor again and get a good plan for mental health recovery

This is a GOOD list. You gonna give it to your husband? What are you going to do if he says he doesn't want to do something on this list?

Really there isn't anything on here that is negotiable. All this is ESSENTIAL for a recovered marriage.


Quote
whats EP? by the way

Extraordinary Precaution. A list of behaviors your husband creates to ensure that another affair wont occur.

Quote
coaching wise things are beyond ridiculous finances wise, no spare money for childrens school shoes right now never mind coaching and we are both hard workers, he has well paid full time job and I have 2 part time jobs(even with my chronic fatugue syndrome) however we are still mega struggling and it gets me down as I feel if I had the money our marriage could be much better because we could get coaching but the fact is we dont so I have to live with that and do my best to use MB on its own for now.

Luckily Marriage Builders can be done without coaching. Coaching is helpful but if you're motivated the forum, the books and the workbook can give you all you need. But you have to be motivated.

Quote
as far as he is concerned that would be WORK and he beleives totally that he has learned enough from the A never to repeat it again, so what about the good marriage part.

This is VERY disturbing. Your husband is VERY unsafe for you. He is another affair waiting to happen. There are MULTIPLE steps to overcoming an affair. The last is the the one that lasts a lifetime:

Building a loving, happy marriage.

That is the step that ensures another affair NEVER happens. Living the MB lifestyle makes it IMPOSSIBLE for your husband to have another affair. The fact that he doesn't want to do MB is very telling. Subconsciously he doesn't want to close the door on 'something better' coming along.

This is the step you must ABSOLUTELY require. THIS is a hill to die on.

A marriage without passion and love is an empty shell.

If you can't get your husband to agree to MB, you need to consider Plan B. If he wont protect you - you need to protect yourself, and that might mean a life without him.

Coasting along on mediocrity is not enough. It shouldn't be enough for anyone. It is no where NEAR enough for someone who has had an affair.

Your husband is a Renter at best. He has no desire to actually WORK to achieve a great marriage. He will manipulate and make you feel guilty, make you feel that your requirements are too demanding, or unreasonable. They aren't - they are what a marriage requires. If he can't meet them, he shouldn't be married.

Quote
Right now I am in mega dark place friday night we are going to a friends wedding and as its not local to our town we will be spending the night in a hotel (MAJOR TRIGGER ALERT) already having panic attacks at being in hotel with him. Really dont want to be as to me now hotels are dirty seedy places affairs happen and i dont want to go anywhere near on. Any suggestions? Please help.


Do you HAVE to go to this wedding? Do you have to stay in a hotel? Is there a bed n breakfast you can stay at? Friend's couch you can crash at? Could you do the trip in one day?

Are there other options?

Really BH - you need to give your husband your list, tell him this is what you NEED for a good marriage. Don't settle for less. Set your bar high. YOU set the bar for recovery, if you set it too low, you won't get the marriage you want, that's assured. You set it high - he might not be able to live up to the expectations, but he just might... and then, you get the best marriage you could dream of.

This list is the foundation of your plan. Lay your cards on the table. If he rejects or tries to argue or negotiate them, you know he has no interest in making you safe, caring for, or loving you. You should be with a man who does.

Do you have a support network? Do you have a plan in case you have to continue your life without him?
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 07:12 PM
Hi Vibressa, thanks again for taking the time to help, im not sure what is it about me that makes the other MBers look but refrain from commenting or helping so appreciate your input and patience very much.

The taker coming out is a major spot on comment and as I become more aware of my behaviour I do amend it so I went from ranting once a week to now maybe every few months wich for me is an improvement. I am just so frustrated I just want WS to HEAR me and what I am saying not what his brain is processing I must mean before i even say a word. Regardless of the reasons I WILL STOP as i dont like who i am when i do that and there isnt much left now for me to dislike about myself but thats what you get when you have someone who is quick to criticise you and struggles to give you well deserved praise.


FP wise he did a good boundries list with the help of Steve however broke several since including adding female colleagues on FB (one lookes just like PSOW) without telling me or even taking my feelings into consideration. Yeah he did remove them later but damage to the boundries and my beleif in him keeping to the oundries was shot.

Everything you said regarding living the MB life is exactly what i beleive, a good MB marriage is the only certain way that an A wont happen again. And its what I really really want.

as far as family support I literally have NONE dad in italy denies im his daughter (despite DNA test being 98% positive that he is my father), Mother who is distructive (im an affair child) and is unsafe for me to be around her. Last relative who loved me or even cares about me was my grandmother who passed in 2006 so no family support.
Friends wise one good friend who lives in a town an hour away, I love her to bits and she is my voice of reason as she seems to be the only one who sees WH for what he is everyone else is fooled by his timid character etc.


I am being jolted to the core by the posts on his thread right now. I dont know what to do part of me wants to scream you are all right he is a monster, but then the other part still remembers the man i married is in there somewhere just need to coax him out. This is really tough right now he is not listening and still making excuses. he never says its my fault but makes me feel it is. however hard life is now wih him it will be twice as hard without him.


Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 07:18 PM
Im off Vibressa is right he is an Adult needs to sort it out himself.
Quote
I dont know what to do part of me wants to scream you are all right he is a monster, but then the other part still remembers the man i married is in there somewhere just need to coax him out.

The husband you married has changed and is now the man you are facing. Just as you have changed over time.

It's not your job to COAX anything out of him. It's his job to be a good husband. Focus on your job...to be a good wife.

Honestly, the physical and mental abuse needs to be addressed before you can fix the marriage, and that work requires your WH taking the initiative. Absent that, I don't believe much will change.
Did you ever get the Boundaries book BH28? You can not take responsibility for his actions or change him.

You can not hold him responsible for the way you are either...
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 07:37 PM
Silentlucidity

How do i become a good wife? I am broken in every way, confidence zero, mothering skills dwindelling fast, cooking not happening as no energy, housework little as no energy (have a friend who is an aupair who is helping housework wise for now).
What is a good wife all my family said at the time of the A was put up and shut up you have 4 kids. It took a while but i did as they suggested now im even more depressed than before..
what can I do to be a good wife?
I know i need to work on myself and im not good enough right now but no one will help me. Everyone is used to me being strong independant and just faisty now im none of those things they dont see it.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 07:37 PM
Ps didnt get the boundries book didnt know there is one have saa and hnhn for parents
I mailed you.

It isn't an MB book
Boundaries
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 07:45 PM
who is the book by? ill check email thanks.
Stay I am emotional and depressed however i am not stupid should i see any signs of danger i am out of here with the kids.
One of my babies has heart issues so I am extra careful about stress around him. Please know I am safe and not foggy to the extent of not spotting trouble. the first attack caught me unaware now im vigilant.
click the link - to amazon
Gosh, BH28, you put yourself down a lot. Broken in every way? Really? I doubt that. If your brain still works, which is seems to be, then you can fix your behaviors.

Honestly, your WH has to work on his abusive behaviors before you guys can come together in a meaningful way. I am concerned for your safety, first and foremost.

Read Boundaries by Cloud and Townshend. Really important that you begin to allow others to be responsible for themselves nad you take responsibility for ONLY what is yours. The lines are muted in your marriage.
BH28:

There are many ways to become a "good wife"

One way in not to have someone who claims to be a husband beating you down, either physically or emotionally.

One way is to have a clear direction of how your own behaviors affect others. This means if your are committing LB's and DJ, and giving your H the "silent treatment" for many days, then you need to address these.

You may have thought that you were being the "good wife" when you were able to get Y-E to start posting again on MB.

You may have thought that you were being the "good wife" when you defended him on his thread.

You were being the good wife, but you were removing the responsibility from HIM to do what HE needs to be doing.

LG
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 08:39 PM
Silent, I do put myself down but its just the way I am, have always been thin, fat, top of the class or bottom its just the way im wired. I take chriticism to heart and bounch compliments off went to therapy for 3 years to get over this got told that my way of thinking is due to parental abandonment (ie if my own parents didnt love me how can anyone else). anyway pity party over back to the now issues.

I have read a little bit about codependancy and its scared me as i seem to have it, I love helping others and thats the way i get a rush out of life. Marriage wise i feel i am to blame in someway for WS attitude as i defended, mollicoddled and protected him from he aftermaths of the A. I loved him too much to see him suffer and naively thought he would repay the favour when he was back on his feet.
Safety wise please understand the attack was 2 months ago and nothing has even got close to that again. So right now i do feel safe. I know EVERYONE is right to say walk away and plan B until he gets help and i want to but i just cant. Is there any other way??
Did you read my email? I have a sort of friend that has a codependancy prob - I keep saying I am going to give her my boundaries book. It will seriously help.

Since coming to MB, I have stopped helping others out so much and have looked more at my M. My H was feeling neglected because I was running around after others.

J didn't move out til a month after his last violence, when things had settled right down and he wasn't an immediate risk. It happens in cycles.... break the cycle this time. It will be a lot easier for you both to do it now while things aren't so bad than in the heat of a bust up when you are both totally panicked at losing each other.

If he will respect you and your family by moving out and working on him you have a chance.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 08:47 PM
He will not take recovery seriously until he experiences some REAL consequences from it.

He just wont.

You cannot stay with a man who wont recover. You staying around rewards him for not recovering. You staying around allows him to continue to emotionally abuse you and further destroy your feelings of self-worth.

If he were serious about recovery that's one thing. He isn't. He can't even apologize. He can't take responsibility for himself.

You CANNOT do this for him.

Quote
i defended, mollicoddled and protected him from he aftermaths of the A. I loved him too much to see him suffer and naively thought he would repay the favour when he was back on his fee

Staying allows you to continue to 'defend, mollicoddle and protect' him. As I said before: STOP IT.

He is dangerous to you mentally and emotionally as an unrepentant adulterer.

Originally Posted by BH28
I have read a little bit about codependancy and its scared me as i seem to have it, I love helping others and thats the way i get a rush out of life. Marriage wise i feel i am to blame in someway for WS attitude as i defended, mollicoddled and protected him from he aftermaths of the A. I loved him too much to see him suffer and naively thought he would repay the favour when he was back on his feet.

Ok, so you know that you have this issue. Next step is finding out how to change your behavior. THIS is how you become a good partner in ANYTHING.

What you describe is controlling behavior. You believe that YOU MAKE YOUR WH act the way he does, and that is a farce. Unless you are siamese twins, he is solely responsible for ALLOWING you to coddle and shirking HIS responsibility to make ammends to you after his A. HE is responsible for HIS behavior .

You really need to read Boundaries. I am not sure that your coddling and prevention of WH suffering the consequences of his behavior is in any way loving him.
BH, where were your boys when your WH was attacking you physically? You are teaching them how to treat women.
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
Silent, I do put myself down but its just the way I am, have always been thin, fat, top of the class or bottom its just the way im wired. I take chriticism to heart and bounch compliments off went to therapy for 3 years to get over this got told that my way of thinking is due to parental abandonment (ie if my own parents didnt love me how can anyone else). anyway pity party over back to the now issues.

I have read a little bit about codependancy and its scared me as i seem to have it, I love helping others and thats the way i get a rush out of life. Marriage wise i feel i am to blame in someway for WS attitude as i defended, mollicoddled and protected him from he aftermaths of the A. I loved him too much to see him suffer and naively thought he would repay the favour when he was back on his feet.
Safety wise please understand the attack was 2 months ago and nothing has even got close to that again. So right now i do feel safe. I know EVERYONE is right to say walk away and plan B until he gets help and i want to but i just cant. Is there any other way??

You might try the "I am certain" exercise.

When I was first aware of my H's adultery , I started a journal.

I began to write stuff like:

"I don't think I want an unfaithful man for a husband"

I did not like what I wrote, so I changed it to :

"I don't want an unfaithful liar for a husband"

I still did not like it, so I changed it to:

"I will not accept an unfaithful liar for a husband"

And the final rewrite:

"I am certain I will not accept an unfaithful liar as my husband"

So, my "I am certain" list grew from my weak and pathetic "I don't think ....."

I recommend you try this.

Start a list, each sentence begins with "I am certain ...."

See what you come up with.
It is an exercise to point out your weaknesses to YOURSELF !

And, it can show you where you need to place YOUR boundaries.
kiss


Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 09:18 PM
Guys as I am honest here it goes Last time i kicked WS out HE HAD THE A.. can you understand how petrified I am of him leaving this house??
It was September 2008 I asked him to leave as he was once again treating me like dirt, gave him family pics and letter told him to spend time looking at them an evaluating what he really wanted and if it was us then to change his "excuses" and "slfishness" and "not taking responsibility for his actions" attitude especially as i caught him in the third EA on FB and unknown to me I was plan B ing him, we had no conact for 2 weeks and he sent his mum over to tell me he didnt love me anymore and Guess what else WH actually did hummm spent time with OW got close to her and thats the EA then PA started he didnt look at the family pics or care much about us when he was out of the house. can u guys see that i want to do everything you say but i am PETRIFIED. I dont want to be alone, i dont want to be divorced and I dont want to fail at anything else.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 09:20 PM
And the kids were in the next room during the assault another reason why i called police. its ugly but thats the truth im not going to get any help by covering things up
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
i dont want to be divorced and I dont want to fail at anything else.


I'm so sorry you're having to endure this BH, I really am. But can't you see - this is HIS failure. NOT yours.

Quote
evaluating what he really wanted and if it was us then to change his "excuses" and "slfishness" and "not taking responsibility for his actions" attitude

He didn't change - he is still that man, only worse. And on top of it he now has your stamp of approval on his behavior. Every day you stay you tell him this behavior is ok.

Your fear is going to cripple you and your children.

It is ok to be alone. It is ok.

Alone with your kids is BETTER than the abuse your husband gives. MUCH better.

You can do this. I remember the story of your youth and childhood. You are capable.

If this marriage fails it is because of his abuse, his affair and his inability to change. HIS failure. Not yours.

Your staying ensures failure.
Yes, we can all see that. Many of us have been in the same position you are in. YOU have choices to make, BH28.

Your WH is home and continues to make those 'excuses' and exhibit those selfish behaviors. Doesn't seem like much has changed.

I mean, COME ON...he sent his mother over to make excuses for him. All in the family, eh.

Honestly, I would RATHER be alone than deal with the added anguish that your WH is placing upon you. The added stress and confusion that a remorseless WS brings to the home can crush a person's soul.

If you are spending any time blaming yourself for your WH's actions, you really need to read up on boundaries and get your head straight.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 09:34 PM
Vibressa I have to take time to think about this I am seriousely considering asking him to leave, he will move in with his parents and giving him a list of musts before he can consider coming back home.

can i use his parents as IM's?
Im lucky i dont have to do much legal work as we have Nothing of value to protect before plan B.

Im going to seriousely think about it and i mean it. Right now his attitude is to take MBers as a joke and its upsetting me as I have read most threads and have so much respect and admiration for so many on here it upsets me to see his attitude towards them.

I will need help putting a clear lists of musts that is cohearant and im sure i can get some help on here.

Im just asking for thinking time. Ill be back on monday and I will have a concrete resolution and plan no matter what. I need to move on with or without him and after seeing his attitude and the ugliness he has inside now its a real eye opener.

I havent even cried or screames thats how subdude i have become and its not right.



BH28 if you end up asking him to leave and he ends up in another affair, FILE for a DIVORCE!! He does not respect you.
If you do plan B, do not use his parents as IM's. There is a huge conflict of interest there and will work against you.

It is always the attitude of an active wayward to take MB's as a joke. No surprise there.

Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 09:46 PM
I agree - don't use his parents as IMs. For crying out loud his MOTHER came to tell you he wasn't in love with you! No not a good IM. You need someone that will be good at filtering out all emotional messages for you.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 09:48 PM
ok will have to look into that one I dont have anyone else friends wise to be an Im, maybe i will ask my best friend who lives an hour away.
How do i manage childcare, he looks after kids while im at work. that wont be a problem but to go dark have to find a way to do kids handover in the morning without seeing him any ideas
For Plan B, you need an IM who will act in YOUR and your childrens' best interest.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 09:53 PM
probably my best friend she is very good and sees through WS also is very good communicator and clever so i trust her totally. only problem her availability might be limited as she is not in the best health but then the contact shouldnt be that much via an IM anyway right? once a week maybe to concrete childcare plans etc.

so from what i have read plan b is no contact visual or communication with WS for an indeterminate amount of time until list of musts is met??
2) use IM to communicate regarding kids
3)work on yourself while WS is in B camp

anything else i should know?

and how do i know when he agrees to meet list of musts as opposed to saying he will but not doing it?
I suggest that you don't do a full plan B. Plan B is to protect yourself form current A behaviour.

I think you need to be in contact so that you can assure yourself that he is doing the work and he still needs to be accountable to you and provide that evidence that there he isn't out drinking or seeing anyone else. This worked for us.

Of course this has to be his choice and your boundary is exactly as Pep suggested: you make your list of what you are certain you want... you need that evidence before he can live with you again.

He is mocking MB because it is your hope at the moment - he mocks it because he is angry because he thinks he will lose control and you will satnd up for yourself. He is trying to keep you down - My husband did EXACTLY the same thing.

MBers can't be applied if there is abuse but you can still list your requirements along side how that will make you feel safe.

Much like an A exposure of Domestic violence has the same affect - it helps the person become accountable - very dodgy ground because of course like exposure after an A the WS gets angry and when dealing with someone that is known to be physically abusive it can put you in danger.

I managed to do it - I told many of our friends> J wrote a letter to both his parents and my parents explaining the violence and how we were dealing with it and they were all supportive as we had a plan to work it out.


Unfortunately- all my postings on this subject including schoolbus' interpretation of the letters he wrote got lost in the big MB outage last year.

Take care
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 10:03 PM
oK staytogether, Im planning to go dark for the first few weeks just so i can get strong and confident on my own for a bit, when he went to the training course in april I was so happy and confident i loved who i was then he came back with the "attitude" again and it went to pot. So this time i want to enjoy the worry free time and stay clear of manipulative WS until i settle into life alone. then I will do a milder plan B where we can have contact but still live separately to see if anything is improving and assess situation. does this sound ok?

oh and his parents (where he will be living) feel responsible for the A as it started under their roof so they will be watchful and will not allow him to stray (or evnen internet access) so i have a little bit of peace of mind there
Sounds good - I remember the relief and now you have said that remember the confidence it gave me and how that was when I knew I could go it alone.

Yes you do that.
Originally Posted by BH28
so they will be watchful and will not allow him to stray

There is no way his parents can control him, BH. If he wants to stray, he will. He must be the one to be watchful and to institute appropriate precautions. They are not responsible for his A, never were in any way shape or form.

I am not so sure about a semi dark Plan B. This is not Plan B. Perhaps you should be contacting the Harleys about the situation and getting their advice on how you should proceed.
We discussed this last year on my thread for abuse situations. The protection this type of separation afforded whilst still keeping contact worked well. However I think it will only work if Y-E wants to do it himself, not if BH has to kick him out. If she kicks him out then a REAL plan B is the only way.

If he shows willing by voluntarily moving out then the few weeks for her to gte her self confidnece up will be good - she can get everything lined up ready for D (as I did) and then if she stills wants to she can have the accountability from him thta he has been doing the work.

If he is willing and doing it a dark plan B isn't necessary.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 10:19 PM
Silent, the thing is I dont have a problem getting WS to agree to do something, its weather he will ACTUALLY do it thats the problem.
Semi dark plan B gives me the chance to see the changes myself rather than hear the empty half baked promises.
for exsample if he wanted to apologise for the affair after a period of dark B then he has a chance during semi dark B plan time. If he agrees to anger managment and attends consisently then i can see in semi dark plan B the progress and I am in a position to assess weather its genuine or just so he can come back home.

as far as the parents go i agree they are not responsible in any way however he will find it more difficult to do anything affair wise under their roof.

If he does have an affair this time then im RUNNING to the divorce courts.

am i making sense or am i getting it wrong
It makes sense. I guess I just wouldn't lump that plan in with Plan B. Meh, that's just me.

Staytogether can better relate to this plan. I would still suggest that you consult the Harleys.

I'd certainly be interested in what the Harley's had to say.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/26/10 10:26 PM
I am expecting a long dark plan B anyway it takes time for him to miss his family. Ill cross the Plan semi dark bridge when i get to it.
Harleys wise cant afford consult as need to get kids shoes and school uniform this month, Its my birthday in a week too so any money presents i might get i will put towards harley consultation. Need to do this plan once and well.
A plan is the best thing...and advice from those in the know is always advised.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/29/10 07:28 PM
Hey MB

Update time again, im starting to wish we could have a blogging section on MB it would be quite good to use to catch up on the progress of many members that I used to follow and now cant find.

So wedding weekend over and I am still determined on going ahead with a plan. This is where I have got to so far, on the 14th of september its our 10th wedding anniversary, we are not doing anything for it as finances still not good enough so thats my date to act, I have been in a good marriage 5 years and in a ok one 3 years then an affair marked one for the last 2 years, im not going to carry on being in anything other than a good marriage, thats the promise im making myself.

I have told WS that im not happy with the way he has and carries on acting and have told him in no uncertain terms to get on the MB recovery train or get off the marriage one thats it no compromises. I need En's met, I need POJA perfection, Boundries adhered to and love bank filling for us to even start getting somewhere near recovery. He has until our anniversary to show the commitment or get out.

Other updates are that he did deliver apology of some sort not what I wanted but will do for now. He was making jokes throughout and it just really didnt connect with me it was like taking about the football match bland and numb. Atleast he has done something i guess. Havent made a big deal of the apology simply pointed out that he will need to keep apologising for things when they come up and maybe ill beleive he is sorry over time, tried to make him feel better after the apology just to encourage progress.

wedding weekend very painful for me not so much because of the hotel but because its really shown me how much I have shut down. I used to be such a hopless romantic, watched endless romcoms and loved a good love story but now I am really numb to them. I was so happy to see my friend get married and so happy for her in general but I just didnt feel any love around or anything (the wedding was super romantic) I was numb just like i would have been if i was at a meeting, Whats wrong with me and has anyone got the same thing?? I am so confused and dumbfounded what happened to the romance in me?

Hotel night was ok I had made it clear there would be no SF at the hotel as I would be very uncomfortable with this, WS did respect my wishes and I did make an effort to meet his needs the night before more than once to make sure he would be at bay at the hotel room. I fell asleep quickly and had a really disturbed night but the morning was where all the ugliness came out. I was triggered over and over again. Told Ws about some of it hid the rest. really tryed to have fun out but was just exhausted, not miserable just really energyless, wondered around shops and went for luch before driving home. I just dont know what we have left to talk about these days we were so silent so often it was like i was out with a brother or couzin, very strange.

anyway back home and not unhappy not happy just getting on with work. dont know what to make of any of this. am i depressed?? am i falling out of love with him?? someone help me make sense of these oddities
Quote
Whats wrong with me and has anyone got the same thing?? I am so confused and dumbfounded what happened to the romance in me?

hugBH28 hug

What happened to you? Your WH had an affair and smashed every bit of faith and hope you had in your husband, in love in marriage, in relationships. It's hard to feel romantic with someone who is a constant source of pain and fear. Until your WH starts to do with work of recovery, meaning taking your concnerns and needs into account, you will not feel better.
Originally Posted by BH28
I was triggered over and over again. Told Ws about some of it hid the rest.

BH, why are you hiding things from your WH? You are not helping him or yourself by doing this. You are HARMING recovery when you are not completely honest. How can you expect O&H when you aren't following that rule yourself? He will never know that extent of devastation that this has done to you without the truth.
Quote
am i falling out of love with him?

Probably, if you have even been IN LOVE with him any of this time. I would hazard a guess and say that you are NOT in love. When is the last time you were SHOWN love?

BH28, without feeling safe, you will not feel love. Without the actions to show you that you are safe, you will not feel love.

Quote
Atleast he has done something i guess

In this case, something is NOT better than nothing. He may have done more harm than good apologizing without sincerity. It's like an empty promise. Again, why are you not being honest with him in the moment that these things happen?

Your WH certainly needs to step up, in a HUGE way, but your lack of honesty is not helping. I'm not saying that you should be cruel, but you should be honest




Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/31/10 06:05 PM
Silent you are spot on with everything, I dont have that loved up feeling at most i have days when i feel sorry for him for the mess he is in. I have and will stop covering things i do it not to protect him but because I cant deal with his lack of being able to handle anything. Told his mum today about the assault, she is dumbfounded asked is he had been taking drugs and tryed to find ways of things that could have affected his judgement, clarifyied that drug tested at police station so definitley no drugs alcohol tested at police station and it wasnt that much either so she finally gave the blame where is due, HIM.

Had an interesting day, kicked out a homewrecker out of my house, i really cant beleive the situations life throws at me sometimes.
Since April I have had a girl live with us as she is from Bulgaria and her host family has thrown her out, she helped around the house and we looked after her. I then find out that the reason she has been kicked out of the host family was due to her having an A with the dad!! I mean really?? so today she found her belongings duly out on the front garden for her to collect. I really have no tolerance for this behaviour around me. Also exposed A to the mum of the host family for good measure.
Later this girl forwards me text messages in which my WS is badmouthing me to her, WHAT HAPPENED TO BOUNDRY 101??? the one that said do not discuss your marital issues with member of the opposite sex. So with that lost another millon LBs for WH from love bank, His excuse is the same need a friend to help me get through this emotional trauma time (the trauma time he caused!).
Told him to get MALE friends or learn to shut up about it, Its not my problem he finds himseld without the respect of his parents or any decent friends who advise him anything but nodding and agreeing with him.

Cant wait till Plan B really cant. wont be able to say much about it suffice to say that the 14th of September will be a good day for me.
Originally Posted by BH28
Cant wait till Plan B really cant. wont be able to say much about it suffice to say that the 14th of September will be a good day for me.

Do you have your plan B letter ready? How about having an intermediary? Have this stuff ready as part of your plan so that you can really go dark, BHonest28. Do you have your finances in order?

I am very sorry to hear about the issue with the exchange student. This woman being in your home was probably interfering with recovery, especially hearing that your WH was using her to vent his frustrations when he should be talking with you. YOU are the only one who can do anything about his issues with you, so telling her is like talking to onesself. MrRollieEyes

BH28:

Glad your back, and survived the weekend.

Sorry about your houseguest...

And your WH was particpating as well? Typical.

He can come HERE and spout. We will help him get straight, not nod and agree.

LG
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/31/10 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
Since April I have had a girl live with us as she is from Bulgaria and her host family has thrown her out, she helped around the house and we looked after her. I then find out that the reason she has been kicked out of the host family was due to her having an A with the dad!! I mean really?? so today she found her belongings duly out on the front garden for her to collect. I really have no tolerance for this behaviour around me. Also exposed A to the mum of the host family for good measure.
Later this girl forwards me text messages in which my WS is badmouthing me to her, WHAT HAPPENED TO BOUNDRY 101??? the one that said do not discuss your marital issues with member of the opposite sex. So with that lost another millon LBs for WH from love bank, His excuse is the same need a friend to help me get through this emotional trauma time (the trauma time he caused!).

Oh, BH this is BAD BAD news. Your husband is a danger to you. He has NO EPs in place, he has no desire to protect you and your marriage, NONE.

There is NO excuse for this behavior. He has no boundaries and doesn't believe he SHOULD have any boundaries. This excuse he gave you is BS. This was another affair WAITING to happen - under your own roof!

I find it interesting that there is a wealth of resources HERE to help you, people who he can talk to. But none of them are young and pretty with boobies he can admire - so who does he talk to.... not us.

Quote
Cant wait till Plan B really cant. wont be able to say much about it suffice to say that the 14th of September will be a good day for me.


Good for you - get your ducks in a row.

I find it interesting. I took a long time to post a thoughtful thread to your H on how to help you and your marriage. No response. Tons of promises last week about how he'd be back ready to change. He has no desire to change. NONE. He's all talk, no action.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/01/10 09:37 PM
Hey
sorry about the late reply its just been another one of those days busy yet full of WS waffle to deal with.

Just managed to shrug him off long enough to be able to get on here and reply.

Silen- Plan B wise I have an IM and financially all is secure, letter wise I need all of your help to figure out the best way to say what i need to say in a way he will understand it. Will get in contact about that nearer to the time. Cant say much more that than without giving more away than I already have.
The student thing big judgement mistake on my part but glad i had the courage to deal with it, Im putting my family first, and she was not for my family, I had asked them both on several occasions to stop badmouthing me behind my back as caught them doing so a few times and yet they carried on felt like an unwanted person in my own house and it drove me to hide in my room most of the time. Glad I got rid of the problem and feel like its my house again I take full reponsibility for allowing it to go on for as long as it did and have truly learned from that. WS pointed out today that he did tell me he thought she was interfering with recovery about a month ago but i just felt to bad to kick her out now im done caring about everyone else.

Lousy- good luck with getting WS telling you anything straight, he doesent think there is anything wrong with adding an x (kiss) to text messages sent to the student. He is living in LA LA land truly. I mean how would he feel if i was texting males and adding an x at the end, I dont even do that with my closest male friends never mind anyone else (the ones i have grown up with and are like brothers)! Im just too tiered to explain to him yet again whats right behaviour and wrong behavior in a friendship with people of the opposite sex. So expect him to explain she was a friend and that the text wasnt that bad and that all he told her was that I hadnt accepted his first apology and he was stressing as he was FORCED to do another one or be kicked out etc. yeah nothing wrong with telling a homewrecker by trade those things. He may as well have booked the hotel room for this encounter while he is at it.

Vibressa- do you know whats more dangerous than not having EP's in place? well it being convinced they are securely in place and that you have them even when you brake them constantly. yep thats where he is at. He is convinced the EPs are well and truly there. me not so sure!
Oh and as far as protecting the family! dont get me started on that one, he hasnt got a bone of protective istinct for me or the childre we are thrown to the wolves to save his own skin on a regular basis, he knows he does this yet not really getting anywhere with changing that. Wonder what giving him a little taste of his own medicine will feel like, once he is on his own there will be NO ONE BUT HIMSELF to blame for his actions.
oh and dont be offended by his lack of responses to anything insightful, he still is a major AVOIDER no way will he get into any conversations where he hasnt got room to justify God forbid he ever took 3 minutes to look in the mirror and pause long enough to take a good look at what he is and what he has done and continues to do to not just me but 4 little boys who admire and love him and will want to look up to him.

Today I am harsh because he is waffling and really annoying me. going on and on about what type of thereapy is best for him what help he needs, how his parents were responsible for his emotional stuntness etc.
I have never appreciated having a job so much just looking forward to work and sleep right now.
Oh and when asked how committed is he to this marriage working the figure was 70% (but this should increse when he sees results for his efforts. Nice touch dont you think? manipulation again me thinks.



It is good to hear that you have your financial and IM ducks in a row. I would start writing your letter immediately and Plan B very very soon. These interactions are causing more damage to you than you may know, at this point.
Originally Posted by BH28
Oh and when asked how committed is he to this marriage working the figure was 70% (but this should increse when he sees results for his efforts. Nice touch dont you think? manipulation again me thinks.

This is just wacko! He's looking for YOU to make him feel like recovering the marriage. My WxH did this too. He kept saying that he was waiting for an epiphany. Dunno if it ever came, as I decided to stop waiting with him MrRollieEyes

There is a plan B letter thread here and a sample in SAA. I will see if I can find the thread and bump it.

For this one, you really need to go so very dark. NO interactions with this loon whatsoever. I am sorry to say it, cut I really don't see your WH 'getting' it any time soon, if ever (I'm more leaning toward never). He's too full of justification, blameshifting and excuses.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/01/10 09:53 PM
Silent have to be breef as he needs the PC now, Plan B is going to be TOTAL BLACkOUT more for my own sanity than anything else.
I need a plan B letter adjusted to my situation as im A is over and right now no OW involved so its not about asking him for that before he can return home its basically asking him to grow up and start taking responsibility for his actions and behaviours etc.
any letters like that laying around MB?
I would use the Plan B letter as a template and explain that your reason for Plan B is to protect yourself and love for H from his independent behaviors, lack of EPs, etc.

By the time I did Plan B, there were no OW (that I know of) but my WHs attitude was to 'wait and see' if he would feel good about recovery, hence no recovery. His attitude was still very wayward .

I bumped the Plan B letter thread...read the letter and make it your own. I would basically mention how you cannot begin the work of recovery without a fully committed and understanding spouse, that the abuse you have endured due to his IB's, lack of true EPs and a general lack of remorse since the A has added insult to the devastation brought on by the affair.

Think of ways to convey that you do not feel safe with him. Think about your boundaries...start making a list of what your boundaries are regarding marriage.

You will need to state in this letter how he can find his way back to you, through your intermediary and his actions. He will need to show you, without your holding his hand, that he is ready to accept responsibility for the A and all that is involved with recovery.

Accept nothing less, because less is what you get...trust me, I know.
(((BH28))) scumbag. Wishing you much strength as you launch on your next step.

How are you going to deal with plan B and MB with him being here?
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/03/10 10:16 PM
Hi Silent and Staytogether,

Sorry I havent been on here its the bousy end of the week for me with double shifts.
Thanks for the templates have looked at them and will ofcourse share the letter im composing before I give it to WS to get further help to perfect it.
I completely agree with setting boundries and giving him a clear vision of what it would take to come back to his family, I am lucky that my IM is aware of everything and she is the wisest person I know, she has supported me and loved me through all this and can see right through him (hence she is the ONLY female friend he will not discuss us with) he is petrified of her and asking her or getting help from her as she has been in our lives for the past 10 years and was there on D Day so KNOWS EVERYTHING.

Stay, I havent given much thought to the MB handling of Plan B, I will still keep looking to gain support on here on the hard days post plan B but I plan to restrain myself from saying things that will be perceived as communication. He knows how much I love him, he knows how hard it will be for me so really there isnt anything new he can learn by reading my thread during plan B. Any other things I should watch out for??

I must say since I have finally seen the light and have set my sights on plan B I feel like a cloud has been lifted, even people at work are saying that I look much happier. I am just looking after myself and mentally preparing for what might come.

I do find it easy to emotionally cut people off once hurt and WS has been the exception to this until now as I really have had enough. I have been beaten into numbness for so long I need to start to feel whats going on. The man I married is gone and the one in his place has a lot of growing up to do before I can fall in love with him.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/12/10 10:32 AM
Hey Everyone

Im slightly overdue an update, things have been busy but I was also trying to give WS the freedom to roam on here without the threat or worry that i would be reading his posts (wich im not).

So since my last update i turned 29 (and found a gray hair on the morning of my birthday! really?? why me??), the day started off well, WS bought me digital photo frame to put family pictures in and that was lovely. He wrote the same old promises in my card (ie this year will be better, I will be a better H etc) and I was really struck by the amount of cards I have had over the past year that say exactly the same thing but nothing gets better so am I wrong to feel the message was just another emty promise?? I just couldnt help feeling that.

The rest of the day went downhill fast, I made my own birthday cake with the kids, cooked a special dinner for everyone and just waited and waited and waited for WS to say something nice, do something nice, just do SOMETHING! nothing happened and I was so disappointed by the time I got to bed I was so down I just told him how let down I felt and went to sleep.
It just baffles me how he can waste a good opportunity for showing me love, affection and care especially with a plan B looming and looking more probable each day.

Next day was feeling so incredibly down I just plainly told him that I just want to know what will stop him from making promises and letting me down. Every time he makes a promise and lets me down he brakes my heart all over again and i get so angry at myself for falling for it again. So now in major shut down mode, I cant go near him emotionally or phisically, I am so detached (and I know it major selfpreservation on my part) that I cant deal with him at all.
I am still maintaining my stance that I learned on here and thats not making any excuses for him and cant cover things up etc. So my policy has been to calmly tell him when he has let me down. Make it short but to the point and just be honest, no more sugar coating etc.

So I asked him what will it take to stop him letting me down?? if the possibility of loosing his family isnt good enough I just wanted to know exactly what it would take? also was very frustrated when he woke up the day after letting me down on my birthday and acted like nothing had happened, It just killed tha the ignored my genuine pain from the day before.

to be continued. WS wants to talk now.
Just out of curiosity BH, how much will be enough to turn you around? What exactly do you need from WH on a consistent basis? Besides being nice to you or saying nice things? Does his domestic support count for anything or have you withdrawn so much in the marriage that it doesn't matter what he does now? This is an honest question, not trying to provoke you -- just trying to get a feel on where you are.

If you could have the perfect marriage, what would it look like to you?
I know exactly where you are right now, BH29 (notice I typed 29--hehe). I can feel it in my heart...the nothingness...empty.

I would like to know the answer to meggy's question, too. It is important that you investigate what your WH can do and then set about telling him. Even if you have to be specific, ie..."babe, I would love it if you would provide dinner for me and the kids tonight; perhaps we can bake a cake together".

I know how hard it is to do this, how the words just stick in your throat, for fear...of rejection, of disappointment, of disgust that you have to say it in the first place...but your WH is NOT a mind reader, and neither are you.

I know that place you are in...you have to find a way to convey HOW you want your EN's met, BH29. If your WH is willing, you need to tell him how to get back to you. If he is making efforts, but what he is doing is not what you desire, you must be his guide.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/12/10 09:06 PM
Hey Silent and Princess

I understand why you are asking this and have had along think about the specifics that I am after in order to accept him as a reformed H.

Most importaint right now is I would like him to show understanding of how essential the boundries are. He made a list of boundries with Steve a year ago and has broken each and every single one. Its like he did them just for the sake of pleasing Steve and shows no understanding or commitment to sticking with his boundries. I dont trust him and I dont trust that he will keep the boundries anymore and its killed me emotionally as I really thought he had "got it" at the time.

The next thing that I would insist on is that he needs to stop making promises and braking them. It really feels like my heart is being ripped out all over again when he does this. I rather he said he isnt able to do something than promise he will do it and let me down, ignores the fact that he has let me down and tells me things like "well you should not expect that much of me".. this happened on my birthday. What does he think I was expecting?? a sports car?? All I wanted was to be pampered and treated nicely and like I mattered for a day.

Emotional need wise I covered my top 5 in an earlyer post on this thread

Quote
Top 5 ENS

1) Affection
2) Conversation
3) Honesty and openess
4) Family commitment
5) Admiration

1) Affection H needs to find the words and gestures to express his love to me. He needs to reassure me he does love me once in a while without being asked or harassed about it (WS spouse screamed about how he wasnt in love with me anymore when we were at a friends house during A, before i discovered A the humiliation still hurts). He needs to remind me he loves me in actions that I understand not just promising things that I have heard before and not keep those promises. I should add that WS is cuddly, kissy and phisically affectionate however I interpret this as wanting SF when often it just him expressing affection.

2) Conversation - Needs to learn to bring u difficult issues without promting or hiding or drama. Needs to keep me updated on his emotional progress and what he is thinking (mainly when he is thinking good things like my wife looks nice in that top kind of thing) without me having to ask and chase. He says he thinks those things and does feel things but doesent share them. Ie i could spend 3 hours grooming and dressing up, come downstairs he would look at me think i look good and not actually say it. I guess what I am going on about is COMMUNICATION he expects me to read his mind and know how he feels thinks.

3) Honesty and Openess- He needs to stop censuring himseld because he predicts how i would react and what i would feel and say so he doesent tell me things, I find this so frustrating and have gone out of my way to react unexpectedly towards revelations in order to show him that I do not think or react the way he thinks i do and i rather get honesty and openess rather than be resented for him having to censor hiself and become resentful because he thinks he knows how i would react to things. Dont make promises he knows he cant keep. I rather he said i will get back to you on that one than yeah I will definitley do this and never actually do it and when i ask him why did he get my hopes up and not do the thing he promised to do and why put me through that the answer is always the same " i knew i couldnt do it but wanted to try" its like being lied to all over again.

4) Family commitment have more family days out and do more fatherly things with the kids like reading, homework, outside play etc. Often when i suggest taking the kids out he has stonewalled me by saying "little one is going to be a nightmare, hey will misbehave, I wont enjoy the outing as they will need watching closely if we are at beach/woods/venue etc" the few times I have dragged him out the kids have been so grateful that they behaved impeccably yet he keeps saying the same thing. We have 4 boys youngest one is 2 they are kids not prisoners!
He does not help with homework and reading especially with the oldest two who now are very behind in school and I am mortified by this, have enlisted a good friend to tutor them as I work in the evenings and cant give them consistant support.
I have to say WS has made a good effort regarding outings with kids, he has participated well in day outings and I am proud of him for that. Just needs to buckle down with the homework/reading part.

5) Admiration - I work so hard everyday and the workload is still relentless, I have no mum/dad/siblings (twin brothers who are 13) to be proud of me. I need him to be proud of me when I do something he admires. Due to my own insecurities H needs to take time to tell me when he feels admiration, he needs to make me feel good about myself. I get alot of chriticism from him and some well deserved but i need constructive chriticism where i am not always just told the negative but the positive too, I take whatever chriticism he says so much to heart i go out of my way to change it frustrates me but these days i feel like i know exactly what i am doing wrong and little about what i am doing right.

I definetly dont expect him to read my mind I have told him in detail what I want from him.

One example yesterday of total WH dumbness was when I decided to take MB advice and work on my own Honesty and Openess. Told him I had been triggered at my job (I work on a maternity ward) by the mums breastfeeding their babies and how it made me upset to remember that I discovered A when my baby was only 6 months old and that due to the stress I was no longer able to breastfeed him as my milk supply vanished and I feel that I had missed out on some of the bonding with my baby due to all the stress of the Affair.
The appropriate response would have been "i am sorry you went through that as a result of my behaviour and sorry that you are triggered etc" the response I got was "Oh well he turned out ok". are you guys getting the clear picture of what im dealing with????
This is why I stopped telling him about the triggers its just pointelss opening up to him he is so far up his own backside ill be lucky if he can register my exsistance.

All I really want is to feel like I matter to him and that our family counts for something in his eyes. All i get is lazy behaviour, selfish tendencies and ignoring issues. I feel as loved and wanted as a pair of old socks.

So this leads me to plan B, 2 days to go and its looking like its definitley gonna happen. I have got a friend to give me some of his anti anxiety medication to get me through the first month of plan B. I need desperate help to write plan B letter but cant do it on here as he might see it. Anyone happy to help would you please email me suggestions.

And just to top it all up I just got sent home from work as I nearly passed out from being ill. I have somethng like the flu coming on, a temperature and feeling really miserable.
I really dont like my body for springing this up on me two days before plan B but I am determined to do whats right.

Nothing short of him pleading to stay home and showing some genuine understanding and care towards this familys needs will stop me from packing his bags on tuesday. My babies deserve better and I deserve better.




Oh and forgot to add another recent frustration by WS. I got really dressed up for both my actual birthday (last monday) and my birthday outing (yesterday) and guess what?? he didnt even notice. didnt say a word not even a "hunny you look nice" NOTHING!! Is that really too much to ask?
I am going to be the dissenter, here, and I'm sorry but its just what I get from reading your's and your husband's threads...

BH, you come across as a demanding shrew and nothing your husband does for you is EVER enough - I get this sense everytime I read one of his or your posts. Ask yourself: is it more important to be right or more important to be married? I think your husband is desperately trying to be a good husband but has no clue how to meet what you ask because nothing he does is ever good enough for you and what you expect of him seems to be a constantly moving target. It is also my impression that this is also the reason he thinks he is emotionally backward - not necessarily because he is but becuase you have drilled it into him that he is.
Oh and BTW, I am an American socialize with many, many Brits. My WXH is a Brit as is the man I am now dating. To a "t", all the Brits I know sign of texts and e-mails with an "x".
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/12/10 09:23 PM
Wow Brit Brat, I dont read his thread but if thats the impression he is giving then he definitley is not making any progress.
I dont demand anything a part from the MB principals like boundries, meeting en's stated above and being there for his family and putting marriage and family first.
He is the one who labeld himself emotionally stunted not me! I dont think he emotionally stunted, I think he just doesent care enough about anyone but himself, you should see how emotional he does get when he doesent get his way.

I cant help but be defensive here, one post advises me to set a high standard another makes me feel demanding. Can someone give me a clue please what am I?
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/12/10 09:25 PM
Brit the x is not a problem when its not one of the boundries he set himself and we agreed on. It was a boundry and he broke it. I dont put x on my text out of RESPECT that it would make WH feel uncomfortable.
I just read your most recent post and from my perspective, your expectations with regard to your birthday are a bit over top - whatt do you want? A parade? It was your birthday, he bought you a present, what else did you want him to do? My parents have been VERY happily married for 55 years. They have a model marriage that exemplifies MB principles at every turn - all of which they did instinctively. For my mother's birthday, my father gives her a card and a gift when they wake in the morning. After that, its business as usual - they go on with their day. Same thing when its my father's birthday. BH, you are an adult, not a child. What you expect of your birthday is what a child expects, not a 29 year old woman.

Did he KNOW that would make you feel uncomfortable? Had you come to an agreement that he would not put x's on texts BEFORE he did? I don't see it as disrspectful unless you had specifically addressed it because of all the Brits I know who do it.
BH,

See, you automatically jumped to HIM not making progress instead of being open minded that YOU might be constributing greatly to the siutation. HE has never said anything on his thread even close to what I have observed - it is just an objective third party reading what YOU have written and seeing a demanding shrew.
Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
I dont demand anything a part from the MB principals like boundries, meeting en's stated above and being there for his family and putting marriage and family first. These are very broad, high-level demands - have you described for him in concrete, detailed terms what that means? In other words, specifics about HOW to meet you EN'S? (e.g., I would like it if you would tell me I look nice, I would like it if you would fawn all over me all day long when its my birthday, etc.)

He is the one who labeld himself emotionally stunted not me! I dont think he emotionally stunted, I think he just doesent care enough about anyone but himself, you should see how emotional he does get when he doesent get his way. You wnat him to follow MB principles, but here you are making a very unkind disprectful judgment.

I cant help but be defensive here, one post advises me to set a high standard another makes me feel demanding. Can someone give me a clue please what am I?
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/12/10 09:43 PM
Brit a standard birthay no problem with what you said a birthday where WS is making amends and Promised to make it special as a show of commitment to changing and getting on the recovery train, definitley missed the mark. I can honestly say for years and years I was lucky to just get a card from him and I didnt complain then at all as he hadnt taken my heart of my chest and trodden on it by having an Affair and making me feel like a worthless old rag in the process. Things are different now and for someone who shows little care for me 364 days a year you would assume that it wouldnt be to much to ask for him to make extra effort on one day.

And as far as the x thing goes, he set it as a boundry! he did know, stupid as it sounds thats how the first A started, a little x here a little facebook poking there and hey presto pants down in a hotel room. So it was a set in stone boundry. and one set by himself with Steve Harleys guidence. I dont naturally do it as I assume it would make him feel uncomfortable and i feel it would be disrispecful to him but he shouldnt have done it as its a boundry. I think there is a full list of his own/Steve set boundries list on his thread for reference.

I understand you are laid back and have your point of view Brit I really do I am just frustrated and just plain tiered of defending myself. I am far from perfect and he has many good qualities and I do know that but he has to stop doing stupid stuff without taking my feelings into consideration.
No, BH, I am not laid back, in fact, I am very much a type A personality but I have learned through years of experience what matters and what does not and how to love and be loved by a man.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/12/10 09:54 PM
Brit seriousely enough, Who said anything about fawning all over me?? if you really want im happy to give you a brakedown of what an ideal day would be for me.

wake up cuddled up to H hearing I love you wouldnt go amiss
make kids breakfast together
Open presents and card (hopefully with a message that does not repeat the same old I will change this time, dont care what else he says even if its just love you hunny, but dont go on about changing again when he writes that in every card and does not follow through)
Have a little plan for the day, walk in a park after dropping kids at school/nursery.
Hearing a few nice things like, you look nice etc would be a bonus
get a few nice surprises throughout the day (nothing major, a love letter, a small teddy, a red rose/carnation anything romantic)
just spending quality time together.
After the kids go to bed have a nice bath, watch somethng funny, read something together.

Does that sound to you like hard work?? What makes this day differet is that he has a plan and he follows it through the day so i dont stand there like a lemon going "so hun what are we doing now?"

Oh and just to clarify, A few weeks ago WS asked me to stop asking him if i looked ok after i got dressed to go out as he wanted the opportunity to tell me I looked nice all by himself ( I beleive this was documented on MB at the time) forward a few weeks, I stopped asking and he doesent say a thing. So dont think for one moment I dont communicate my needs to him im well aware he isnt a mind reader, He knows exactly what works and what doesent. And he makes the choices he has made fully aweare of this.


DJ noted and wont be repeated thanks for pointing it out
BH,

It is my understanding your husband did a number of sweet things for your birthday, not just give you a digital picture frame and that was it for the day, didn't he give you a little bath melt shaped as a cake with hearts on it? When you told him about how you had triggered at work, yes, he didn't handle it well at first, but didn't he shortly thereafter turn round and apologize and show understanding? Didn't he take you out with friends to celebrate? I've been to leicester square and know that wasn't an inexpensive evening out. Was he affectionate?
Your examples sound like something off of television or a novel instead of facing the realities of day to day life.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/12/10 10:19 PM
Brit he gave me the bath melt friday (4 days after birthday) I did appreciate it and told him so.
The outing was great I got to spend an evening with my best friend (this is rare and takes military style organisation to achieve as we have 7 kids between us and shift work patterns that make thing very difficult for all of us to go out together, this was the first time we managed to coordinate in 6 years and it took 5 grandparents and alot to make it happen ) we went to a comedy club and laughed till my cheeks hurt. He was affectionate and yes I was withdrawn but it wasnt done on purpose I am hurt and I have to self preserve at times and thats the way I do it. How can I let my guard down when he has let me down?? he tells me all the time he doesent get it, he doesent get MB he doesent get humility, he doesent get my EN's, he doesent get feeling bad about what he did, he just doesent get it. I dont tell him he doesent get it, he tells me he doesent get it.

Here is the best example I can give you of how I think.

I dont "get" what it takes to be a good mum (some are trivial things like organic food or standard food, best ways of disipline, meeting their educational needs) as I wasnt raised by one but do you think for one moment that I would give up on trying to understand and putting in practice how to be a good mum. I read, ask,talk, lean, exchange ideas, research and do everything in my power to be the best I can be for my babies because thats what love is. WS approach would be to sit back and just say I dont get it lets move on to the next subject.

As far as handling the trigger goes I guess my expectations were high as I was told on MB that I had to stop hiding triggers from him and tell him about them when they happen to give him a change to show progress. When he gave me a flippant response to something that I said with tears in my eyes, it hurt and yes after i pointed out to him that it would have been nice for him to just acknowledge my pain thats when he went off to think and came back with an apology, the moment had well passed and the damage was done, I trusted him with my feelings and he dismissed them. Brit we are 2 years post A now the reaction he gave to the trigger is something you would expect from a newbie MBer only just post D Day. He has been here long enough to know better.
I just wanted to make a comment.

I am a FWW, and when my husband's 31st birthday came up last month I MADE sure that he not only had the best day ever! But the BEST WEEKEND EVER!!

I am sorry to say this brit, but she has a RIGHT to complain because of what he did to her, because I am STILL trying to make up everything I have done to my husband wheels. By doing so I wanted him to have the best birthday that he would remember.

I wanted to show my husband that I was dead serious on making this marriage work!

I cleaned
I cooked
I baked his cake (it was YUMMY by the way)
I bought him gifts
He slept in while I took care of the kids
etc...

I wanted him to have a great birthday! laugh

If he doesn't react to even her birthday? I don't know....two days till plan B right??

laugh
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/13/10 09:21 AM
Now I am seriousely doubting myself, do I lower my expectations and be grateful or do I go to plan B??

Just woke up after the strangest dream ever. I was at a social event and ran into OW who was in a wheelchair after being involved in a road accident (first thought was, finally Karma has caught up but then I really felt sorry for her), I got talking to her and she was a real mess so I was trying to help her feel better and look after her, she then reveals that her and WH had made a video of their encounter, I ask to see it and fall apart all over again. So woke up feeling slightly shaken up. Cant I get any rest even in my sleep?
Hi BH,
I've been following your thread for a while. Just wanted to give you some encouragement. We have a lot in common. H's who don't respect boundaries, who we don't feel safe with, etc.

I just went into Plan B and I'm not going to lie. It is so hard. I question whether or not I did the right thing. But bottom line, I can't keep hoping that my H will get it. Because right now, he does the bare minimum (and really blames me for having to do anything at all). and that's not a marriage. And I don't want my son to grow up thinking that you are only good to your spouse when you get what you want.

So anyway, just wanted to give you some virtual hugs and tell you that you are certainly not alone.

-txnatheart
BH, plan B is the right step to take, because emotionally you can't do this anymore, and that LB of yours is starting to say "empty"

Plan B is designed for you to keep the little love units you have left and start helping yourself, physically, and emotionally. We all know you can't help yourself if he is still in the picture.

Remember that you have all of us. laugh
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/13/10 01:39 PM
Brit - I think you need to read the whole history here, including yllan's thread.

The affair ended 2 YEARS ago!!! And this marriage has made almost no recovery - in fact there was a second burgeoning EA only weeks ago on the part of her husband.

Yes, BH may be having trouble with LBs - but she is TAPPED OUT by having to live with a wayward for over 2 YEARS. Her husband has made very few improvements, despite being here and despite counseling with Steve. Her husband has NOT been a good partner in overcoming this affair.

I think it understandable that BH is unable to contain her rage and anger. She has stayed in this situation WAY too long - she need to get out.

She was cheated on with multiple EAs, she was cheated on while pregnant, and then had to watch her husband go to work with the OW for (I may be mistaken here) nearly a YEAR! When EPs were put in place - her husband proceeded to BREAK them and engage in another inappropriate relationship UNDER HER ROOF. On top of that she has a husband who has PHYSICALLY ABUSED HER so that police were called and a report filed. To top it off she has a husband who cites incompetence when she tries to get him to meet her needs.

And she HAS told him, explicitly, what she needs. I suggested an exercise a couple weeks ago where they do JUST THAT. Sit down and make lists of what actions will meet her needs. He promises and doesn't deliver - like when he said he wanted to compliment her on his own so she could stop fishing for compliments. She stopped - and got no compliments.

Really - it's understandable why BH is where she is at. She has been mentally and emotionally and PHYSICALLY put through the wringer by a selfish, self-centered, serial adulterer.

She's tapped out.

And as for the birthday thing:

Originally Posted by Brutallyhonest28
wake up cuddled up to H hearing I love you wouldnt go amiss
make kids breakfast together
Open presents and card (hopefully with a message that does not repeat the same old I will change this time, dont care what else he says even if its just love you hunny, but dont go on about changing again when he writes that in every card and does not follow through)
Have a little plan for the day, walk in a park after dropping kids at school/nursery.
Hearing a few nice things like, you look nice etc would be a bonus
get a few nice surprises throughout the day (nothing major, a love letter, a small teddy, a red rose/carnation anything romantic)
just spending quality time together.
After the kids go to bed have a nice bath, watch somethng funny, read something together.


That doesn't sound like it's out of a movie or beyond ridiculous of an expectation.

Really it doesn't.

I expect more from my husband on my birthday- and he delivers beyond those expectations.

Really this is pretty low key and reflects that all she wants is to know her husband loves her and thinks she is special. All it is is time together and thoughtful, loving acts of kindness and care.

And you know - based on Yllan's thread - he KNOWS she likes little thoughtful gifts and treats...he just doesn't feel like doing them because he doesn't feel they'll give him the payback he's looking for. He wants some BIG gesture or act to FIX everything so things can just 'go back to normal'. He doesn't get that he needs to change and become a completely new husband. Until he gets that - BH needs to be away from him. (And yes, I've discussed this with him on his thread).

BH I really think you should call the Harleys and try to get on the radio show.
Vibrissa,

I have read both their threads - every post - from the outset and have been following along. For the record, since my story has long been closed (been hanging around these boards since 2002), I am the BS. I have walked BH's shoes, much longer than she has as my XH's A lasted 3 years before we divorced. A lot of what I see from both of them is two, very immature individuals. YES, Illyanoitome had an affair - VERY WRONG. BUT he ended it and is still there trying to do what BH asks of him but what I am seeing is her bar/expectations are vague, high level requests and she fails to appreciate the little things he is doing to try and recover their marriage. I look at what she writes and what he writes and I can't help but think he's verbally abused and doesn't know how to react because nothing he does or ever does will be enough for her. For his part, I think he is emotionally unavailable and no matter how much BH demands, he is not going to become emotionally available overnight and he is not going to be able to address it until he recognizes it. I will add on that through all of this, they both still have the responsibilities and obligations to meet - taking care of their children and going to work at their jobs, neither of which allows for the 24/7 attention/devotion BH seems to demand.

I think the wisest thing they can do is counsel with the Harleys again. I would highly recommend BH and her husband read the Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans and books on emotional unavailability.

Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/13/10 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
A lot of what I see from both of them is two, very immature individuals.

I don't disagree with you there.


Quote
YES, Illyanoitome had an affair - VERY WRONG. BUT he ended it and is still there trying to do what BH asks of him but what I am seeing is her bar/expectations are vague, high level requests and she fails to appreciate the little things he is doing to try and recover their marriage.

I think, initially, she was vague. I do think she has gotten better. I don't know that I agree that her requests/ expectations are too high. She has her ENs - she needs them met, whatever they are. From her description I don't think them unreasonable - but that is a matter of opinion and we'll probably disagree on that indefinitely. In the end - our opinions of her ENs have little bearing.

She has ENs. She has a way she needs them met.
Her husband MUST meet them if he wants to have a marriage with her. Now, he may be unable to meet SOME just how she likes them - that is where negotiation comes in. However, he doesn't negotiate. He promises to do them and doesn't. That is a dynamic they will have to overcome in order to make progress.

Now, perhaps the vagueness is due to the fact that BH honestly doesn't know how best to meet her needs - that happens. In that case she needs to spend some time figuring that out to give her husband the best possible information.

Quote
I look at what she writes and what he writes and I can't help but think he's verbally abused and doesn't know how to react because nothing he does or ever does will be enough for her.

I don't doubt that BH is love busting all over the place. She has had troubles with this since she got there. Honestly I think it is because she's WAY past needing to go to Plan B.

They need to stop the abusive cycle they are stuck in. They need to short-circuit their behavior.

I think they BOTH have a lot of work to do.

Quote
For his part, I think he is emotionally unavailable and no matter how much BH demands, he is not going to become emotionally available overnight and he is not going to be able to address it until he recognizes it.

I agree - but I think he is expecting it to happen overnight, hence why he doesn't make more little efforts. But I don't think that he'll never be able to meet BH's needs the way she needs them met. It will take time and consistent effort, but it is possible.

Quote
I will add on that through all of this, they both still have the responsibilities and obligations to meet - taking care of their children and going to work at their jobs, neither of which allows for the 24/7 attention/devotion BH seems to demand.

I don't think she wants 24/7 attention. I think she's so far in the red that she may THINK she needs 24/7 attention. I am pretty certain that once they BOTH get better at the MB principles, the 15 hours will be sufficient, like it is for most couples.

I believe UA time should be 25-30 hours when a marriage is in trouble. Right now they're not even getting their 15 minimum. BUT they won't even be able to make UA time productive until they learn how to stop hurting each other. Until they stop abusing each other. Their abuse needs to be addressed before they can even begin.

Quote
I think the wisest thing they can do is counsel with the Harleys again. I would highly recommend BH and her husband read the Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans and books on emotional unavailability.


I wholeheartedly agree.
Originally Posted by Vibrissa
Quote
I think the wisest thing they can do is counsel with the Harleys again. I would highly recommend BH and her husband read the Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans and books on emotional unavailability.


I wholeheartedly agree.


They have already done that, he even made EP's with the harley's and yet never followed through with it.

I think plan B first, and then when he wants to finally recover then they should talk to the harley's.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/13/10 04:25 PM
Hey
I want to really clarify this point, I LB on here as a vent, I dont say things like that to his face or abuse him. I just cut him off because thats easyer for me. The outragious anger I had for a year after the A is gone now its replaced with numbness and pain. I do slate him on here because I cant do it to friends and family as its not right to talk about him like that to them and it would hinder recovery, im not that stupid. I talk like that on here because its the ONLY place I can vent my frustartations among people that understand. I have taken to calmly telling him when he lets me down and why (thats on the occasions that I bother to say anything at all). If he stays quiet (which would normally be an invitation to total angry innialiation) I walk away read a book or turn the TV on. There has been one incident where I major LBd and yelled recently but that was the first in 6 months. Still not right and have learned from it.

I do encourage progress, every time he does something right I tell him so it would be stupid not to encourage progress with someone who takes every opportunity as an excuse to regress. Seriousely people i might be so in love with him that I have out up with alot but that means i have a blind side and not that i am completely dumb.

Plan B is tomorrow, feeling ok about it and hoping the anti anxiety meds work enough to help me let go of him as Plan B can only be done once and well. I will work on the letter tonight when he is at work.

I am all about compromise with him I dont expect him to be a mind reader or to get things 100% right at all. I have stuggled for ideas for his birthday before and even forgot Fathers day this year (yes i was totally mortified) but when you promise your gonna make it good why would you not do that??
Compromise on EN's is also very possible but I dont want him to know that as he wont make the effort to go for what I want and maybe get it right he would take the easy effort free route of compromise or his way which wont work for me.

I have specified to him that as soon as I see some progress ill jump on the recovery train with him and make changes that he would like me to make too. But I wont do that and change and please him again only to be the only one to change and this has been the way things have been so far, Its not fair, he got to give love to get love at this stage. I am not an endless supply of care and patience.

I dont want overnight results a change of attitude would be a start and that will happen when the sentace stops stopping with "I just dont get it" and instead carries on like this " I dont get it but I want to get, can you help me understand this/that, how this works etc"

Brit I dont know what your problem with me is but your comments are very hurtful and judgemental of me. I am not you and my husband is not your husband. I sometimes feel like is should be grateful because my husbands A didnt last long and that it broke easely and he is still here and I really am at times especially when reading some of the most heartbraking threads like scotlands (whom I admire so so so so much) but the situation I am in is bad for me because Its my situation and because it affects me in its own way. I am happy to be 2x4 when I deserve it but right now I am doing things the best I have ever done them and it hurts that thats not good enough.
I will not post to you again. I wish you the very best of luck trying to recover your marriage because being a single mother - even with a dad who is very much in the picture and a very supportive significant other - is VERY challenging on the best of days.
Sheesh, BH28, I dropped a bomb didn't I. I ended up with so much to do yesterday that I had to abandon posting. Sorry.

I haven't even had time to read all of the posts fully. I did read your EN's post and it does sound like you are fairly clear on how you need your needs met. As is repeated OVER AND OVER here, these are YOUR needs and they must be met as YOU prefer, not as your WH desires to meet them. It is not up to him, just as meeting his needs the way he wants is not up to you. You just meet them.

As for your ideal birthday, I gotta say, I have REGULAR days like that with my SO. It's not a fairytale, what you ask. It's reasonable, especially on a special day that you had requested your WH to make special. If he fell short, it IS your responsibility to tell him how, and to thank him for those things that he got spot on.

I agree with Vibrissa and Sapphire, you are out of steam. I wish there was a MB way to just take five and then come back in swinging. There is Plan B, which is risky and could spell the end, but it's either that or continue on as things are going and beat you down further and further.

You cannot expect changes overnight and for everything to turn on a dime. Coming back from the brink takes years, but you have had two years already, and you are drowning.

I think Plan B is the appropriate step.

I am a single mom, and went through three years of multiple false recoveries and caretaking on my own. Sure, I won't lie and say it's easy peasy, but it's a heck of a sight better than suffering as you are. I don't care what anybody says about it; I can do poorly alone, I didn't need my WH's help.

BH - Just a quicky to say I am all for you going to Plan B. I'm surprised you've survived this long to be honest. Your WH is so full of excuses and, IMHO, just plain lazy and seemingly unwilling to put in any effort at all. Plan B may be the wakeup call he needs. And if he never wakes up, you may just be better off without him in the end. I'm so sorry for your struggle. I can't begin to imagine the pain and heartache that you've suffered. But one thing is for certain; regardless of how your marriage turns out, YOU will be a better person in the end.

aBetterMe
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/13/10 07:01 PM
I am at that stage, I am out of steam and starting to get vengful and hatefl feelings for WH and thats just not me. I dont like being bitter, i dont like being angry and I really dont like feeling hopeless.
Either way Plan B works out its an END, its an end to the M or an end to bad behaviour.

Just listening to DR H radio show, the taker giver section is spot on, I am the giver 80% of the time.
Yes WS is great at helping around the house and is supportive with the household chores, I love that about him. We work as a team there isnt the male ego thing going on and I really really appreciate that. especially when the days of chronic fatigue syndrome is kicking in. I am petrified of the exhaustion that will come from taking on looking after 4 boys alone and doing all the housework alone. But if I achieve this then I will feel so proud of myslef and thats what I am looking forward to.

I have a couple of questions regarding plan B now.

1) whats the best approach to packing stuff, should he do it or should i pack for him?

2) Is there a way where the nesting approach would work, Ie he lives at the house with the kids thursday to saturday, then he goes and I live with the children sun-wednesday and stay at a friends the other nights as those are my hectic work days i would be out from 8am till 11pm so will only need a place to sleep. Would this be a bad idea as he would get to live in the house 3 days a week even though it will still be without contact with me.

3) Do I tell people we are separated? trial separation? I just dont know. From my point of view I am scared of unwanted male attention when stating that I am separated. I dont want anyone else I dont want dates or anyone making advances.

4)Whats the best way to explain this to the children, I have already asked the oldest one how would he feel if dad was to move out for a bit he seems indifferent to the notion.

5)I plan to delete him from FB and ask friends not to tell me waht he is updating his status to as it will get to me. Is that a good idea?

6)How do I stop myself from crying like a baby as he is walking out.


Posted By: atena Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/13/10 07:17 PM
I just think that if you allow your H to be home he will never experience the loss of his family.He will still have contact with his kids and his home so he will not suffer a full blown plan B.
Furthermore, how come you work such long hours? You said you have chronic fatigue. If you go into plan B, do you have a support system, family who can move in with you for a while and help you?
You doing the moving around allowing your H to stay with the kids some times during the week will exhaust your energy. Guaranteed.
Blessing
1) I'd say pack it for him. The essentials. If there's something else he wants, he can ask for it through the IM and get it from the IM.

2) Like atena said, if he's in the house half the time he'll never get a true feeling of loss for family and marriage. He should move out, you stay at home.

3) Tell people whatever you like and if there are male advances make it clear you are not on the market.

4) Explain to your children that Daddy has made mistakes and has broken promises to Mommy and that while you love them very much and Daddy loves them very much, right now Daddy cannot live at home until he makes and keeps some new promises (adjust for age level).

5) Yes, delete him from Facebook and tell everyone you don't want to know what or how he is doing.

6) You must be strong and you CAN be strong. Make sure you have an emotional support team you can lean on after he moves out and going forward. And keep coming here too! We can be great cheerleaders to get you through this.

{{{{{{BH}}}}}}}
in answer to your question about what you tell others about your marital status...until divorce your response is "I'm married" and you drop it like a hot rock, because it is nobody's business.

Your WH is there, he knows you are going into Plan B; he knows there is a deadline...have him pack his stuff while you are there and then leave. You hand him the Plan B letter as he goes.

Is there any way that you can change your work schedule? It sounds grueling and you will have children and home to take care of. Do you have some support...friends and family, to help lighten the load for you when you need a breather?

I wouldn't do the house sharing thing. It will take it's toll on you at a time when you really need to settle in to this new change. Work out a visitation schedule, have the children go with their dad. This will give you much needed time to decompress in your own home. The first couple of weeks are difficult, and the privacy and comfort of your own home will be a blessing. Remember, Plan B can go on for some time...years...and you want to be ready for the long haul, not just tomorrow or this month. Treat it like your WH does not exist.

Be honest, in an age appropriate way, with your children.

Block him from your facebook and explain to your friends and family that you would appreciate if they could keep your progress to themselves.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/13/10 08:49 PM
Hey

I agree with not house sharing I aske the question because WS brought it up today so was getting an opinion, Him living here will lessen the effect of plan B somewhat and I already explained that children wise he needs to see them outside of the house. So im glad my gut instinct was accurate on this.

Telling people im separated came up as I had an unexpectedly strange episode today at work. Was talking to a female colleague about H possibly moving out tomorrow and I would not be available for work (im not due in to work but they do call me consantly to come in and do extra shifts) I was unaware that my male boss was behing me and he later made me feel uncomfortable by showing an interest in me. I was totally unaware he felt anything for me, I am glad today was his last day on the job he is being moved to a different store and today was his last day so wont have to see or deal with him again. Have told him in no uncertain terms I loved my H and him moving out was not the end of my marriage. Seriousely had no idea the boss was interested in me. Havent told WS about this incident yet dont know what to make of it. So yeah random strangers I can deal with others now im nervouse.

Cronic fatigue wise I used to work 7 days a week 2 hours in the morning at two different hospitals and on three of those days would work 5 hours in the evening at second job. In the spirit of simplyfing life and making more time for quality time with WS I agreed to work 3 days a week and cover both hospitals in the same day then go onto evening job this leaves me 4 days off and it crams all in one day so it works out at 4-5 hours in the morning and 5 hours in the evening I get a brake in the middle so can recover and have caffeine tablets to help along with the fatigue. I cant change my schedules again as work finally got the right cover in place to accomodate my first request for change.

Family support - absolutely none. no mum no dad no siblings (well twin brothers who are 13). His parents will want us together so they wont be a good support as will pass messages lobby on his behalf to let him come home unchanged. Friends, local friends, I have one good friend who is pregnant, I dont know if any of you remember my last thread she gave bith in December and baby passed away 3 minutes after birth, so I really dont want to stress her out as of her current pregnancy the stress is high enough. Other friends live far away from the area, so i am alone. I like being able to depend on myself and although scared of being alone it cant be worse than what I am going through now.



Quote
Him living here will lessen the effect of plan B somewhat


No it won't because you won't be IN Plan B. Plan B is absolute, total darkness with no possibility of contact other than through an IM.

What you're describing is not Dr. H's Plan B. I'm not sure what it is.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/13/10 08:58 PM
It was something i came accross called nesting where separated couples share house and kids half the week each. It was designed to avoid moving kids around too much. so the kids stay in one place the parents move around.

I agree it would not be appropriate in my case was making sure I got that right.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/14/10 07:17 PM
What an exhausting day! Plan B was well underway and I really was prepared this time. Wrote letter, sealed the envelope.
WS came back from work wanting to talk (at 2am!) was sweet and seamed really lost by all this and felt really bad for him. Asked for another chance, explained I just didnt trust him to do anything that he promised. Explained that there are 3 things I needed more than anything and he keeps saying he doesent get them so I cant work with that, the 3 things I asked for were.

1)Family Loyalty/protectivness
2)Boundries that are kept stictly
3)my EN's met

Thats it, thats the start that I could work with and cant take any less. Told him to have a good think about that and as I was very exhausted told him I needed time to think and a good night sleep.

Woke up to WS in tears, got the following message on FB

"I feel so humble that you have stuck by me through the years when goodbye would have been easier but today and everyday from here forward because of you I get to tell you and show you how much I love and adore you.

Your everything to me babe...s and I love you more than my words could ever say xx"

I just didnt have the heart to plan B him. It was hard as I was all set, cold and detached and then in one day he shows what I needed to see for a long time. Humility, regret, love and emotion. How can I plan B him after that?

I almost felt a loss at having to let go of plan B for the time being. I really dont know if I did the right thing but I feel good about seeing where this new attitude leads.

Spent the morning listening to the MB radio show (it is really really good) and then WS sat me down to work out 15 hours of UA time (unfortunately we could only find 11 hours but we are still looking to make the changes). He has suggested that he is writing a new set of boundries that he will write on his own and then run them past me to see if they are what I need and would agree to. His theory is if he wrote them alone then it will show the understanding he has rather than when he did it with steve on autopilot.
He wanted more details about my ENs I took time to explain what my expectations were and he seams surprised as in his head he thought it was so much more complicated that it transpired. Promised to meet EN's and communicate about them in order to seek better understanding.
Family loyalty he thought i wanted him to go up to random strangers and verbally abuse them if they looked badly at our family (seriousely i dont know where he gets this stuff from) I explained that it involved being loyal as in not badmouthing family or agree with people that do (referring to the student incident). Putting family fist and protecting them aginst hurt.
Sort of gets it but not quite yet.

He then wanted to do a few more things regaring involving the children and behaviour charts, did that and asked him to have a brake as was feeling really tiered by then.

Was really affectionate verbally and phisically all day. It was nice to see him like that.

And thats it from me now going to zone out watching a movie while he is at work need to rest my brain for a bit.
sigh...sounded like he planned the WHOLE thing. Oh well, what's done is done, good luck on another FR.
BH28, my main concern is that your WH is just trying to stay his execution in whatever manipulative way he can. I don't believe this will last. I expect that he will go thru the motions long enough to get you fully rooted in attempted recovery and then let it all go again.

Sorry. This does not sound like a contrite man. You are on your way to another FR.

BH...you are allowing yourself to be snowed. I think you should still go Plan B. What he is doing is not enough...and you are too close to see it.

He wakes you up at 2am? Why? For the drama of it...to put you in that place where you doubt yourself, INSTEAD of just making the changes in behavior without provocation...without you telling him how to change...HE SHOULD be towing the line..not you. This is all just smoke and mirrors, IMO.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/14/10 10:16 PM
You could all be very very right. Plan B is not extinct, all the preparations and the hard slog I have put into it dont just havnish into thin air howerver it feels impossible to implement while WS is behaving well.
Should the previous outragious behavior reoccur then it will be a swift non dramatic Plan B in place before he can even look sorry.

I really get plan B when a wayward is still involved in A or misbehaving, I just dont know how to relate it to a usually emoionless looking H who is crying in the morning.

I also have a very valid financial reason (got a call this morning regarding my grandmothers inheritance finally coming through talked about this in previous thread but it was still on hold due to legal reasons) I need appropriate time to safeguard this before starting a cold war on WH. His behaviour was changed before the phone call.

I am disappointed with myself but also looking forward to having some deposits in my love bank should I go to plan B at a later date it would be easyer as if I did it today feeling the way I do there would be no mountain high enough he could have climbed to get back to the marriage.

Time will tell, if he is genuine then all is better if not then he hasnt got the patience to keep up a pretence long enough and Plan B will stand.
Originally Posted by atena
I am disappointed with myself but also looking forward to having some deposits in my love bank should I go to plan B at a later date it would be easyer as if I did it today feeling the way I do there would be no mountain high enough he could have climbed to get back to the marriage.

Time will tell, if he is genuine then all is better if not then he hasnt got the patience to keep up a pretence long enough and Plan B will stand.

I dunno, BH, about that no mountain high enough...if that were true you wouldn't quickly accept, as you have, what your WH has to offer right now.

What will happen when WH lets you down is all those deposits will spill out of your sieve of a bank, and you will become indifferent. You won't NEED plan B at that time, except to not have to deal with your erratic WH. You won't need to preserve love because you will have shut that down.

...or maybe not...maybe you can take more punishment. I know I did---three years of it. I lived in a very similar situation to yours, with someone who sure could talk a good game to weasel his way back in, and then sit on his dead [censored] waiting for it all just to work itself out...doing the minimum to get by (except I did not find MB until nearly a year into a false recovery).

I really do hope that this is it for you, Atena. I hope your WH really does step up. I would set a time limit instead of waiting for him to just fail. You need a PLAN.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/14/10 11:10 PM
I do have a time limit but dont want him to know about it simply because he might use it as an excuse or might behave just to give me a false sense of security during that time limit and when he has me on the hook then revert to Bad behaviour.

I get the love bank comment and thinking about it you are right I am in a place where no matter how many deposits he makes one bad withdrawal will cause total banktruptsy.

The thing is with my H is that he does not back down EVER for anything. I have threatened to make his life a living hell (and he is well aware I am capable of following through with that threat) if he didnt apologise for something he is well aware he did wrong in the past and guess what he stood defiant. I cant make the guy do anything he does not want to do. I wish I could or I would have done it by now. He never fully beleived I would go through with plan B as I kept the details to myself (very unlike me normally I would be shouting it from the rooftops). It seams that the anniversary of our 10th wedding anniversary was the reason for his emotional state today.

I still dont trust is genuine but wouldnt his life be alot easyer if he just woke up this morning and said " I get everything and things will be great". He didnt do that he was upset/emotional and opened up about his fears and actually communicated with me. It gave me a good idea as to what his brain is translating my needs as and they are very distorted.
Like for example he thinks he has to buy me original never bought before things, do original never done before things. thats just not possible we have been together 10 years.
My dream night is him hiring a DVD that I have been waiting to watch (this is easy I keep a list on the pc, when I see a trailer I like I put the name of the movie on a list and tick it off when i see it and no not many of the ones on the list are girly movies) order pizza delivery and icecream and just cuddle to watch it. He was genuinley confused and baffled thats what I thought was a great night, he thought it cant really be that easy. well it is. it shows organisation, thought and just enough care to show he has thought about me by doing a DVD night like that.

I was really taken back by how overcomplicating his brain can be.

Silent what happened to your marriage? did you recover? what changed his attitude? did you plan B? how did you manage to plan B when he had his game face on.
BH, I used to have my whole story in my sig line but I can give you a quick synopsis.

WH had an EA with supervisor at work, and it was all downhill from there. Their affair ended but his waywardness did not. I found MB about a year after the first A. I continued to make a lot of demands with a WH that never really showed any signs of desiring to RECOVER his marriage, but did desire having me as the soft place to fall. Your WH's WORDS sound like the same script my WH was reading from, except my WH was not nearly as enthusiastic about staying in the marriage. He pretty much did whatever I told him to do EXCEPT implement MB.

I am divorced. I have done a lot of work toward personal recovery; Plan B has helped give me the breathing room to make that happen.

Originally Posted by atena
how did you manage to plan B when he had his game face on.

I had a PLAN...and didn't veer far from it. I had been thinking about Plan B for some months prior to implementing it. My situation was different than yours...my WH was drinking heavily and avoiding me. It was an easy choice by the time it came to make it.

I understand not disclosing your new date or plan...as long as you have one
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/14/10 11:52 PM
Silent
sorry to hear what happened to you. If I was to be even half as well recovered as you after 3 years of being messed about I would be very proud of myself. What is your XWS doing now, has he even started to sort his life out? Is he atleast a good dad to your son? Are you in total no contact with him?
Its so sad to think that these men who walk not only walk from a family but walk from someone who loved them enough to beleive in them and that they can be a better person. Who does he have now that has that kind of love for him.

the thing with my WS is that he thinks he know it all about me so when I act uncharacteristically it throws him off. The way I calmly went about organising Plan B freacked him out and this could be a temportary state of mind. Also he probably expects me to lower my standards of what I want from him but I made it clear thats not going to happen.

I know this might sound harsh but I was true to myself today. Didnt acknowledge much of the anniversary didnt give him a card or make a big deal of it because I dont want to celebrate 10 years that didnt matter enough to him and that he threw away with the A. We had good things very good things in the first 8 years but its almost like they were written off by the A. I wasnt disrispectful or made any remarks to him about the A I just said I rather look forwards and celebrate when I felt it appropirate. I cant help it but im just not in that place right now.

I have a plan, I am giving him enough space to go wrong shoud he choose to do so but unlike other times where I was unprepared I am very prepared this time. I didnt start to think Plan B was appropriate until about a month ago when I came back to MB now Its in my head it makes more sense than living like I have been. I cant help want to see if what he is doing now is genuine or I would have driven myself insane thinking about it during plan B.
I do not have contact with my WxH. He talks to DS8. I get info here and there about his new women from DS. That's about it. It's the beauty of Plan B. I don't care much whether he gets it or not. It would serve him to 'get' it and make his future relationships better, but it's not my business anymore.

I used to care about WxH getting it. I no longer do.

Originally Posted by atena
I cant help want to see if what he is doing now is genuine or I would have driven myself insane thinking about it during plan B.

I understand this. You will STILL drive yourself a little crazy with some what if's in Plan B, but it is always good to know you exhausted your every effort.
Here's the thing. I see his actions as proving he's capable of meeting your emotional needs, expressing remorse, etc.

But until he's up against the wall and past deadline for change, he can't muster the motivation.

Therefore, my guess is that he will revert to his bassackwards schtick as soon as forgiveness is extended.

His "disability" is a FRAUD. He's just patently LAZY!!!!
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/15/10 03:43 AM
Sorry BH I been AWOL with a sick baby. I completely agree with KA. You are setting yourself up for big resenetment and may lose the little love you have left.

Make sure you have a plan. Set a date but don't tell him when it is . He needs to make real changes not last minute pleads for another chance. Don't trust his words. Watch his actions.

I'll come back when I can. I'm praying for you.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/15/10 10:02 AM
Hi Vibressa

Really hope baby gets better soon.
I have a plan, and I am watching him but not in his face, givng him enough rope to hang himself so to speack.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/15/10 08:10 PM
Hey Day 2 going ok no problems WS maintains good attitude. Spent time together, was helpful and sent nice messages while he was at work. So im ok this far.

The reason why I am posting is because having been listening to the MB radio and thinking about a good way to spend some of my grandmothers inheritance I am seriously considering going on the MB weekend. Yes it would be a logistical nightmare with the children and us being in the UK but If there is a way I can make it happen, where can I find details of how often these weekends happen? I cant find anything on the site and the links lead me to the home study courses. I cant find prices either. Anyone here know anything about it?
BH, I think they've discontinued the weekends and now are only offering the online courses. However, with the online courses, I understand that you get access to the private MB board with direct access to Dr. H. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/15/10 08:13 PM
I think I read somewhere that the MB weekend had been discontinued, but I'm not 100% on that.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/15/10 08:17 PM
Thats a real shame I really would have loved to go. The online course looks ok but I might look into it more and get more information about it. Might try to have personal coaching with Steve again. Listening to the Radio show really explains things clearly more than reading about the information.
Posted By: armymama Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/15/10 08:19 PM
Click on the course link at the top of the page. Then there is another link to seminars and accountability. On that page, there is a reference about not having the weekend any longer. Instead, there is an online seminar with an accompanying course that you work on at home with a coach.

My H and I attended the weekend last Jan. It was a huge turning point for us.

AM
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/18/10 11:05 PM
Hey
Just a quick update, all is still going well and I am feeling alot happier all round.
WS putting in alot of effort and doing a very good job of meeting my EN's and quite frankly exceeding my needs. I am giving him positive feedback and feel more at ease and cuddly towards him. He really seams to be turning and more committed. He has done so many lovely things I wouldnt know where to start. The funny one was when he turned up at my work with a nice card saying thinking of you. I had a heart attack as thought he was there to tell me something had happened to the kids. It took a few minutes for the card to sink in, thats how surprised I was.


I saw my therapist today for my 6 months post discharge check up and she was happy with my progress however made a few points that have got me thinking.
She said that I was having the A triggers because I was scared to let WS into my heart again and although I pointed out that most of the time they feel like they are beyond my control she seams to think that it is. I really cant help it sometimes. I would just be doing some random act like driving to work and out of nowhere I remember something A related and get a kick in the gut feeling. I try and shrug it off and sometimes it takes me a few minutes but I dont know how to control that, It really feels like I have been through a train crash and sometimes relive it out of nowhere.
Second thing she commented on was that WS probably feels very embarassed about the a and said "have you ever done something stupid you just want to forget it ever happened because its so embarassing" and yes i can soo relate to that, her theory is thats the way he feels and thats why he wants it to be buried rather than discussed or acknowledged. I do see that point but dont like it, it feels like its belittling the situation.

MB wise I wrote to DR J Harley via the radio show and my questions and email was addressed in thursdays show, and guess what I MISSED IT! i got an email saying it had been addressed from the Harleys yet as I was at work all day thur and Fri I missed the show, I have tryed to buy the segments in order to hear the show but for some reason its not letting me buy the segments. I dont know if my card works in the US.

If anyone heard the show can you enlighten me please.


Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 09/19/10 12:37 AM
I was listening in this week just in case but I think I missed it. I'm sorry BH.

What a bummer!

Glad things are going better.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 10/19/10 11:53 AM
Hey Everyone

Its been a month since my last post and i must say things are going ok, no lbs no attitude, the house is a peaceful place again, EN's are kind of being met and communication is good.

All in all a much better place to be. There is tons of work I need to do on myself and struggling with that. went to see my doctor about my constant exhaustion she is running blood tests to confirm that I have thyroid issues and if thats the case its easy to solve by taking one pill a day. Results in next week.
Managed to crash my car and resigned from one of the two jobs i am doing at the moment. Want to get a carreer I am passionate about but struggling to identify a realistic once that I can do ( I love medicine, nursing, paramedic science, anything to do with caring for sick people) I am considering going to college to train as a nurse but petrified i would be no good at it.

So life is ok and nothing much to grumble about. Just glad that recovery hasnt had any setbacks, however recovery is hard as now one side of the issue is being resolved I have to work on me and I am struggling with that one.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 11/05/10 12:40 AM
hey

SOS moment agin im afraid.

Although WS still fulfilling his duties and on top of ENs and no problems so far (a miracle in itself) I am hitting rock bottom.

D Day is approaching and i am really struggling, im crying all the time, reliving d day and just falling apart.

Has anyone got any advice or tips on how to deal with this difficut period?? I am really desperate, if things carry on like this i will be admitting myself into a psychiatric clinic.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/02/11 10:46 PM
Just another update,
I have been lurking on MB reading and reading for a while but havent really wanted to give an update.
Then I thought that if nothing else the people who have helped on here for so many months deserve an update even if its not so good news, the newbies can read the thread and learn what NOT to do to get a marriage back on track.

November was though found and a revelation on the anniversary of DD made me completely withdraw from the marriage both emotionally and phisically. It was the final straw and things have been quiet and not progressing since.

On november 5th 2004 DS number 2 who was born with heart issues stopped breathing in the middle of the night, luckily we had a breathing monitor installed in his bed and it allerted us straight away, WS resussitated him and I found the experience hugely traumatic. So every year I ask WH to make sure he is around on the 5th of november because i tend to relive that trauma and tend to be quite emotional and clingly to DS who is now better but still has some issues left.

On DDay i found out that WS and OW had their first night in the hotel room on the 5th of Noveber 2008, WH told me that he was working a night shift as a cover story so when I needed him the most he was in hotel with her, this cut me more than any of the other things he has done. I dont have any other dates in the year that I need him for, dont mind him missing valentines, birthday or anniversaries, just that day as I seam to hold onto what happens during the year but allow myself to fall apart one day a year.

following this I have seriously withdrawn from the marriage, we didnt do anything or celebrate our 10th wedding anniversay, we avoided valentines day and to add more to the pot WH has been doing a managment training course that required him to travel and be away for one week every month for the past 6 months (course now over) during wich time a lot of lies and deceit took place on his part, for example one of his EP was that he is not to drink while away from home. he agreed to this then broke that agreement several times then blamed me for setting such an unfair EP in place as alcohol was not involved in his decision to have an A. So he drank went out to a bar with the boys and disappeared for the night turning his phone off when he was supposed to check in (another EP broken). No OP was involved spoke to one of the boys he was out with and confirmed that he was not involved with any OW during their night out to celebrate the end of the course. I beleive this friend he works with children from broken families, volonteered and built playgrounds for chilren in Iraq and very much on my side when I exposed A to him.

He is now doing his own thing, he isnt horrible to me or anything we are both very aware of a massive distance between us and just tend to do our own thing, no fighting and no more incidents of violence since july 2010.

I have been working very hard on myself and my skills as a mum, the affair whiped me out and made me withdraw from the kids for 2 years, the more i withdrew the more i missed the kids but then i was crippled with guilt about the fact that I wasnt there for them for 2 years, I was here in body but not in spirit, they got the bare minimum, they got fed, cleaned and assisted with their homework, the rest was done by WH. My saving grace came when WH had to go away for the managment training thing I had no choice but to be alone with the kids and I loved it, we went to the park with the dogs, we curled up together and watched dvds with popcorn and it was great, however when WH came back i would feel like a black cloud had arrived and I would withdraw again.

The year also started well and I was feeling so much better as I managed to lose more weight and I got offered an opportunity to try out for the job of my dreams (paramedic), It involved attending an interview and undergoing tests (maths, map reading, driving, medical, infection contol, lifting etc) then if you are successful you start working as a trainee paramedic and earn while you train (great salary too) I passed with 98% score and was so exited but 2 motnhs ago I received an email stating that they will not be in a postion to offer anyone a job as a trainee paramedic at the moment due to government funding cuts they are hoping to have funding available next year and they will keep me on their list of successful applicants. I was devastated, have really gone down hill since emotionally, put on a ton of weight and that just drags me down even more. I just cant seam to maintaing a good feeling for longer than 5 mins.

another update is that we Got the inheritance from my granmother through, we decorated the house and i am taking some of it to have the gastric band operation this july and I am hoping that thsi will finally stabilise my weight issues and in turn make me feel better. WH been respectful and has not taken any money from my inheritance to spend on anything he wants (surprised but pleased by this).

Gave up smoking in an attempt to make good changes to my health. I still dont have a definite diagnosis for my constant exhaustion so I am doing what i can in order to resolve it myself.

Marriage wise I wonder every new year if we will still be married at the end of that year, I am depressed (clinically this time) but I also made alot of progress working on myself the past year, Marriage wise WH has been reading and doing some work on M 20 mins every morning for the past 3 months (another scheme hatched by him to avoid repairing the marriage he Marriage builders way) and nothing has changed and nothing will until he accepts the pricipals of MB are good and sold, there is no way around them.

I dont know what else to say really, had i followed through with Plan B i know my life would be so much better right now (with or without WH)
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/02/11 11:07 PM
forgot to mention something that any Waywards that are lurking around right now should hear about, This really made me so mad.

My best friend (male gay best friend bty) has recently got engaged to a lovely man (lll refer to him as D)
A week ago his family was struck with the most shocking A related tragedy there is. D's brother has been married to a woman and has a 5 year old child with her, over the past few months she has been openly involved in an A. He has exposed, plan A and done everything he can to keep his marriage but things got too much for him when the WW booked a weekend away with the OM, half an hour after she left for her sordid weekend, the BS hanged himself, he was found by his sister and her children they tryed to revive him but his life suppor machine was switched off and the funeral was last tuesday.
The WW was so brazen that when she was informed about what had happened her first comment was all about how dare he ruin her weekend (I mean reall?? can anyone be that wayward). The BS family feel they have no choice but to be nice to her in order to keep contact with the child so she was allowed to attend the funeral and this time she turned up at the funeral of her BS with love bites on her neck from her OM. Is the world going crazy or am I the only one who is so socked by this im still speechless.

For any wayward out there who are lurking take note of how bad your actions can make someone feel. Stop your destructive behaviour and wake up.
Posted By: armymama Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/03/11 12:22 AM
I think most waywards would think, "What's the problem?" ---- so self-centered that yes, they would only consider how it ruined THEIR weekend.

And yes, you are entirely correct to be outraged.

AM
Posted By: Scotland Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/03/11 12:55 AM
Have you thought about moving onto Plan B? Just a thought really.

I don't know how much longer you would be able to live like this without wanting to do serious damage to that man thing you are married to.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/03/11 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
I think most waywards would think, "What's the problem?" ---- so self-centered that yes, they would only consider how it ruined THEIR weekend.

And yes, you are entirely correct to be outraged.

AM

Actually, I'm mortified to admit that I went away on one of those weekends when I was wayward. I even let my BH drive me to the airport. One of the absolute least finest moments of my life.

If that had been the outcome in my case, I'm sure I would have been absolutely destroyed. I don't see how anyone could ever live with themselves after something like that. Even if she has no feelings for her H at all, just knowing the affect that this will have on that child would be horrendous.

That's a whole new level of waywardness I can't even fathom.

I am immeasurably grateful that my H didn't take that path and that he's still here after all I put him through.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/03/11 08:14 AM
I am just so amazed at the BS family, they have had to maintain a stong contol over themselves for the sake of the child. The WW still lived at home with the BS there was no separation while she was having the open A , the BS cooked, cleaned and worked so he was taking care of everything for her to the point she called one of the family members up and asked for help as she didnt know how to make a packed lunch for the child as it was her BS who usually did it.

The other thing is that she is in major wayward behaviour, she told people who didnt know about the A that WS committed suicide due to the fact he was having financial difficulties (really outragious behaviour again) and this has now pushed the BS large family to put their resources together and try to go for full custody of the 5 year old. I really hope they succeed, that child should not be with someone like that.

I didnt attend the funeral, i dont think i would have been able to keep my composure around the WW.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/03/11 08:23 AM
Scotland

the three problems i struggle with most regarding plan B are

1) i dont fully understand the logic of a plan b when there is NC in place between WH and OW.

2) I dont feel i am strong enough not because i would miss him but because i am terrified of bringing 4 kids up on my own.

3) last time i attempted plan B was before the A and he used the time apart to have the A.


I dont want to harm him or feel much for him. Because the love I had for him was chipped away at over the past 2 years I see his faults much more quickly and that puts me off him in every sense. I know that I dont want anyone at the moment not him or anyone else, I just want to work on making my life better and my relationship with the kids better. Our marriage is floating along not great not terrible just there.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/21/11 02:54 PM
amazing how much things can change in a few weeks.

As of my last update I have returned to MB to read and learn for my own self recovery. WH noticed my return to MB and started reading threads and MB principals again, we discussed it and he agreed that he wants to give MB principals a go again, he has reservations as he does not understand some of the concepts or how to execute them.

I told him to take a week out and read the basic concepts in depth if he was still interested in following MB then i was willing to do that as long as he gives it 100% commitment.

At the end of the week i asked him about what his decision was, he asked a few questions about the principals, I told him it would be best for him to bring the questions into the forum rather than ask me because I was in the process of trying to understand them more myself.

He has done this and has been activly posting without any prompting or hassling from me.

Now I am fully aware that we have had many false recoveries and been back and forth alot but I feel good about what is happening right now because I feel he is doing it genuinley for us and our marriage not because I have held a gun to his head or given him an unltimatum.

We have done work on POJA and its been great, i feel good about it because it gives me a platform to negotiate that does not appear to be controlling or nagging, he loves it because it gives him a platform to negotiate and feel good about an outcome rather just do whatever he wants knowing how i feel about it and feel bad or guilty it or not do what he wants and still feel bad about it.

We have scheduled UA time in the diary (im sorry but I drew the line at scheduling SF as part of UA time. thats something I would hate to schedule).

We have set a date to do the EN questionaires again and work through RC and LB worksheets.

We read SAA and HNHN For parents in the evening.

Anything else we should be doing MB wise right now??





























Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/22/11 11:39 AM
Seriously no one here to help me?

I know there are more urgent posts to get to and I have been a royal pain in the backside but I'm trying to help myself and improve.

Do I need to be on a different thread?

Posted By: My4Loves Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/22/11 11:55 AM
My only suggestion is to make sure UA time reaches at least 15 hours/week. I may even go to 20 hours to really build the love.

1000% open transparency on his part, and make sure POJA is done correctly.

Tough~
Hi NB, welcome back. Can you put a link to your original thread on this one so people will be able to understand where you are in your journey? I don't have much time because I'm on my way to work. Please remind me, who is your WH?

I'll be back this evening to catch up on your situation. Others will be here soon. BTW, why the change in your screen name?

Keep reading. Keep learning.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/22/11 01:22 PM
hey tough and princess.

UA time scheduled in diary and going well, POJA being done over EVERYTHING and its going well because we are practicing with the little decisions first.

As far as transparancy I am always transparent, one i am a really bad liar, and two im quite direct with my communications (pleanty of people hate me for this but lots love the fact that i tell it as it is and therefore i find myself being agony aunt of choice).

His transparancy is a work in progress, i still have a really strong feeling that there are things he has not told me.

Princess hope you have a good day at work, thanks for the post, i will link my old thread here no problem however i am deeply ashamed of my journey so thats why i wanted to make a fresh start and a change of name feels like the right way to go I did add at the bottom of my recap thingey my old identity so people wont get confused.


My H was YllanoitomE he is now posting under a different name because he wants a fresh start on MB101.

Reading learning and opening up to being wrong and needing to do my share of marriage cleaning.

My journey thread link is


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=157671&Number=2267522#Post2267522
NB28, Hi. I want you to know that I found this thread and am reading it. Thank you for sharing your story and for helping me with mine!! Please pass any advice my way about how you are gaining your own personal strength. I have a lot of reading to do, so it will take a while to get through all of the articles, questionaires, etc... Have a great day!!
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/22/11 03:57 PM
No problem little, you got the vets on your thread now so hopefully they will give you the proper advice you need.

Hope things get better for you soon
NB...

You have no idea how happy I am to see the progress you both are making....and, especially, you, on your own! You and I are keeping up with the same threads and I think you are making very insightful, supportive comments and really looking at things with a much different eye! Keep up the good work!! I really am so happy for you!
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/22/11 04:04 PM
thanks Brit that means a lot to me, I was so hurt about the A that I turned into a ball of anger, the thing is that I find it easyer to get angry than to be sad, but in the end anger was making me into someone I just didnt like anymore.

So did alot of work on me and although I still get days when I am depressed there are more days when I am ok.

I love MB but found it so hard to let my giver out and just couldnt bring myself to do my part in repairing my marriage.

I realised if I dont open myself there is no way anything my WH can do to reach me.

If I get hurt again I feel safe in the knowledge that I will survive it especially with the MB army support.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/22/11 06:12 PM
I have a few questions about the MB principals that i would love to get some help understanding better please.

1) We are about to do the EN questionaires again, what scares me is that my ENs tend to change from time to time. how can i address this?

2) UA time wise it includes SF but im not really comfortable with scheduling SF what do I do about that?

3) UA time again would love some ideas as to what to do during that time? with 4 kids activities outside the house are difficult and not affordible at the moment. Dont have a babysitter and the grandparents wont have all 4 kids they only take 2 at a time. any ideas for what to do in UA time would be great.

4)the giver and the taker - What is the best combination because having one or the other exclusively is not good so what do you do? have a bit of both at the same time? have a bit of both alternating them?


Originally Posted by NB28
4)the giver and the taker - What is the best combination because having one or the other exclusively is not good so what do you do? have a bit of both at the same time? have a bit of both alternating them?




I really appreciate the way Star*Fish explained the Giver/Taker.

This one is called:

THE GOOD TAKER




Originally Posted by Star*Fish (a long time ago)
The Giver is the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make the other person happy and avoid anything that makes the other person unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy. It's the part of you that wants to make a difference in the lives of others, and it grows out of a basic instinct that we all share, a deep reservoir of love and concern for those around us.

But the Giver is only half of the story. The other half is the Taker. It's the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy. It's the part of you that wants the most out of life, and it grows out of your basic instinct for self-preservation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The giver is all about love and concern and the taker is our selfish side...so how can the giver be bad, or the taker be good?

Everybody recognizes the "good" in the giver and how giving can enhance relationships, but here's how a "bad" giver can ruin your marriage if all your marital choices are made solely selflessly:

*your giver is not honest....he won't tell your spouse what you need because he more concerned about your spouse feels, whether your spouse gets his needs met, than protecting your interests or your feelings. If your spouse asks the giver if it's okay to do something....even something you don't want to do...the giver says okay.

*your giver is the one who creates resentment...all that dishonesty cloaked in care....leads to misunderstandings, mixed signals, missed opportunities. The giver thinks...my spouse should KNOW what I need....just like I know what he needs.

*your giver is your martyr....endless giving creates the ever suffering spouse. Givers are praised for their selflessness, but they become very unhappy until all that's left is to somehow enjoy the pain....and get what secondary gain that offers.

*givers avoid risk and change...no rocking the boat...who knows what could happen? Nope, givers like safety....even when that involves enduring discomfort.

*givers believe in unconditional love...because they don't ask for conditions. They just give.

*givers handle your tender emotions...fear, sadness, care, consideration. They also tend to be weepy and needy.

We all know how "bad" the taker can be....afterall he's the guy who makes selfish demands, angry outbursts and most of our other LBs. But how can the taker be "good"?

*your taker is the guy you need at the negotiation table....because your giver will NOT create harmony, fairness, honesty in the dealings. Without your taker, your giver will create an environment of sacrifice....leading to resentment, anger and loss of love.

*your taker is honest about what you need and gives your spouse the information to CHOOSE to show you he loves you in the way that you would like it. He doesn't require mind reading...he lays it on the table.

*your taker fights for what you need and doesn't let you sit home three weekends in a row...he makes sure you're part of the fun.

*your taker is not an enabler or codependent.

*your taker saves your marriage as often as your giver does by making sure that reciprocity exists.

*your taker is willing to take risks and make changes.


As an example, I'd like to put forward my own marriage and how my giver undermined the happiness in my marriage for years. I NEVER went into negotiations with my taker....so I never even got close to getting what I wanted. I always put my husband first. But I wasn't happy. I didn't like it.....and I BLAMED HIM for not giving me what I wanted even though I wasn't honest and he didn't know how to please me. There is no negotiation without the taker...the giver just says "fine", do what you want. I lived with resentment every time he did what he wanted. I punished him for it too. And I was not someone who he would want to spend time with in the future either because I was pretty much angry all the time.

Letting my taker out saved my marriage. Oh to be sure, I couldn't let my taker rant and rage....but once he wasn't in chains all the time, he was far less volatile. My taker is the one who found out that my husband was actually willing and pretty enthusiastice about negotiation. Instead of the old pattern...H wants to do something...I say yes...then treat him badly. The new pattern goes like this....H wants to do something, I tell him how I might feel enthusiastic about that...we come to an agreement about how we can both get what we need....and I treat him well...and we both have fun! He gets to enjoy his activities without guilt. I know that I won't be neglected because we have also made plans together.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/22/11 11:28 PM
thanks pep that clarifies that bit.

Now for some more questioning im afraid, we just did the EN questionaires and I need some help.

I really hope he never reads this because with what i am about to say i really dont mean to cause him harm just need to get it out in the open and see what your thoughts are because frankly right now im scared.

Although as you are all aware I didnt plan b phisically I did it all emotionally, as the months went by I started to see his flaws more clearly and with that I genuinley fell out of love with him.

When we were doing the EN questionaired i just kept thinking that I dont care if you meet this or that cause I cant see myself being in love with you again.

I do want to be in love with him but he has put me through so much that right now I am not. I do not find him attractive and his top EN is admiration, I dont enjoy nor do i want SF with him (although i still do it) what do I do??

Do you all genuinley think that if he met my ENs i will fall back in love??


Posted By: My4Loves Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/22/11 11:43 PM
Yes this is your fake it until you make it time. You will need to really look at the good guy in him to meet his admiration need. Maybe visit the "Guys only thread" or read HNHN to find examples. When you meet his and he meets yours in time it will get better.

Up UA to 20 hours and make sure he is meeting your needs. As long as that happens he should be depositing. Make sure he knows how to meet them as well and it isn't a half hearted attempt.

Tough~
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/22/11 11:54 PM
its tough, I will meet his Admiration need no problem and he has some very good kind traits i can still be true to myself and meet his ENs. Im just petrified of never getting that lovey dovey feeling again.

UA time scheduled no problem, he did get stubbon over it at times because he thinks we cant do 15 hours UA time but I think we can and scheduled them in no problem.

I am just feeling overwhealmed today, I would have killed for him to be enthustiastically working on the marriage a year ago, now he is doing it i feel very lost as to how to feel and what to say. He is my best friend in the whole world and I dont want to lose him just want to be in love with him again.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/23/11 12:28 AM
Just look at the past as if you divorced and now you are looking to remarry. The past is done. You have today.

It is late in London. Go to bed and cuddle up with him. Come here everyday and read the recovery thread. Better yet move this to recovery and go for it.

Think of it like the little train that could ...

We will recover -- We will Recover -- We will Recover

Yesterday is History ... Tomorrow is a Mystery ... Today is a Gift ... That is why it is called "The Present"

You give me hope because I see so much of my WH in your husband. I can only hope POSOW dumps his butt here real soon!!!

I just IM'd him to see if he wants the kids for two weeks in August. Now that should be a reality checker for him and POSOW. Welcome home!!!!

Tough~
Originally Posted by NB28
Do you all genuinley think that if he met my ENs i will fall back in love??

NB

For a long time, I felt the same things that you are feeling. It was really hard for me to find love for someone who was capable of... etc,etc You know the thoughts that I am thinking here.

Once I felt that he was "sincere" and not just going through the motions, the romantic love returned. But I will be honest with you ... it took me about two years to rid the "I don't love him" thoughts.

I think maybe I was trying to protect myself.

The answer is YES if you feel that he is sincere.

Now I think to myself, I stayed for the kids and ended up with a really great guy too.

Give it a chance NB.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/23/11 05:44 PM
Hey its tough,

I get what you are saying and I will try to do that as far as going to sleep thats a real issue for me at the moment. cant sleep and find myself staying up till 4-5 Am every night, wake up early still but cant sleep. I am taking anti anxiety meds but they have a side effect of slowing your metabolism so as i am dieting at the moment while waiting for my gastric band operation i try and only take it if absolutely necessary.

As far as the POSOW goes I really cant see her sticking with your WH for long, I am afraid its a waiting game for you.

Poker, you gave me much hope, I really appreciate your comments and sharing your situation because it gives me hope that I will one day want to be married to him and not feel like I have to be.

I come from a very disfunctional family so want whats best for my kids and dont want a D. But as of today I feel I am here for them I hope one day I will be here for me too.
Originally Posted by NB28
I have a few questions about the MB principals that i would love to get some help understanding better please.

1) We are about to do the EN questionaires again, what scares me is that my ENs tend to change from time to time. how can i address this?

By doing exactly what you are doing, reviewing the questionnaires. Remember that you are trying to concentrate on the top 3-5, and that the sheets facilitate communication.


For instance;

Explain how your need for affection could be better satisfied in your marriage.

I would love it if my husband would hold my hand while we sat together/talk/watch TV/Drive.

Weekly review wouldn't be a bad idea. Do so until both of your EN's and LB's begin to settle and even out.


Originally Posted by NB28
2) UA time wise it includes SF but im not really comfortable with scheduling SF what do I do about that?

Relax? Dr. Harley recommends scheduling SF. Additionally, studies outside of MB show that scheduling SF keeps marriages more fulfilling. Additionally, a minimum of once-weekly SF is also shown to help keep women's menstrual cycles even, as well as hormonal levels, which help improve overall mood.

Additionally - scheduled SF helps to alleviate the anxiety of guessing and/or initiation/rejection. Knowing that tonight is naughty night, you could build the excitement by spending the day flirting with each other heavily!



Originally Posted by NB28
3) UA time again would love some ideas as to what to do during that time? with 4 kids activities outside the house are difficult and not affordible at the moment. Dont have a babysitter and the grandparents wont have all 4 kids they only take 2 at a time. any ideas for what to do in UA time would be great.

Divide and conquer! Do the older children have friends with whom they could have sleepovers or playdates?

Originally Posted by NB28
4)the giver and the taker - What is the best combination because having one or the other exclusively is not good so what do you do? have a bit of both at the same time? have a bit of both alternating them?

Pep covered this.

Originally Posted by NB28
Do you all genuinely think that if he met my ENs i will fall back in love??

Give it time, patience, care, consistency, and protection, and success is all but guaranteed.

Posted By: armymama Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/23/11 06:17 PM
NB28,

To answer your question "if he met my ENs i will fall back in love??", I believe the answer is yes. Certainly, Dr. Harley says it is so. My H and I are a little over three years since D Day #1 and close to one and one-half years since we started recovery. For me, the love came back in small increments in time. I would feel it for a short time and then I wouldn't. Now it is more the other way around. I let go of most of the resentment (every once in a while it rears is ugly head). Life is so much better and our marriage is so much better. My H and I found if we miss our UA time (we have been charting it since Feb 2010), we both feel badly. That time together has been the most important factor to us.

AM


Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/23/11 06:34 PM
Hold,
thanks for clarifying and answering the questions I had about the MB principals I agree with everything you have suggested and said a part from the SF section.

SF is a very complicated and troublesome issue in my marriage right now. For one I am not feeling attracted to my H (or anyone else for that matter), I do meet his SF needs but its done because I hate the fact that I have caught him with porn on his phone a couple of months ago and the image of him selfpleasuring over those images has truly tuned my stomach. I find the notion of it vile and that has affected my sesire for SF with him. He wants sex most of the time and never lovemaking which is another problem.

Take all the above and add in occasions where he has had issues with maintaning an erection and you can start to see the complications in this department. I dont feel like he wants me i feel like he uses me for SF because im there not because he truly wants me and he has added insult to injury by making some crude remarks about it recently that left me even more wounded.

I know this is a personal and very private matter but it is a problem that i would appreciate help in resolving.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/23/11 06:39 PM
Armymama,

Thanks for sharing your experience, again it gives me hope that things will be great eventually.

For now I am opnening up to the notion of loving him again. I am trying to hold on to the good i see in him and have long shut off the resentment for the A.

I will do my bit to meet his EN's and will be open to him meeting mine.

I am very unsure about my ENS because they tend to be general rather than specific, Could you please help me figure out if they are specific enough if i post my top 5 on here?
Originally Posted by NB28
Hold,
thanks for clarifying and answering the questions I had about the MB principals I agree with everything you have suggested and said a part from the SF section.

SF is a very complicated and troublesome issue in my marriage right now. For one I am not feeling attracted to my H (or anyone else for that matter), I do meet his SF needs but its done because I hate the fact that I have caught him with porn on his phone a couple of months ago and the image of him selfpleasuring over those images has truly tuned my stomach. I find the notion of it vile and that has affected my sesire for SF with him. He wants sex most of the time and never lovemaking which is another problem.

Take all the above and add in occasions where he has had issues with maintaning an erection and you can start to see the complications in this department. I dont feel like he wants me i feel like he uses me for SF because im there not because he truly wants me and he has added insult to injury by making some crude remarks about it recently that left me even more wounded.

I know this is a personal and very private matter but it is a problem that i would appreciate help in resolving.

I'm going to shoot off a radio show e-mail on this.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/23/11 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I'm going to shoot off a radio show e-mail on this.

Sorry Hold I have no idea what you mean or are saying here. please clarify
Originally Posted by NB28
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I'm going to shoot off a radio show e-mail on this.

Sorry Hold I have no idea what you mean or are saying here. please clarify

Nevermind, found an easier to access solution;

Quote
If your husband were to avoid masturbation for a week, he would find his normal sex drive returning and he would be more sexually attracted to you. The longer he would avoid the pornographic videos and any other sexual material, and limit all of his sexual options to having sex with you, the more your sexual relationship would return to the way it was when you were first married.

But it won't be easy for him to give up his tapes or whatever else he uses for sexual release. Over the years, his methods of self-arousal have probably become very sophisticated and work extremely well -- much better, in fact, than his sex with you.

Like any other addiction, at first, he will crave what he has left behind. He will go through the same withdrawal that alcoholics experience. He may become depressed and frustrated, and it will be quite an adjustment for both of you. But if he can do it, if he can stop having sex in any context that does not include you, he will eventually find complete sexual fulfillment in his relationship with you.

Don't forget that the way you make love together should be with your enthusiastic agreement. If he says that you must make love to him in a way that upsets you, or is at all uncomfortable, he's back to his sexual addiction again -- where having sex is more important to him than your feelings.

Sex should be exclusively reserved for the marital relationship for quite a few reasons. For one thing, sex is one of the easiest ways to deposit love units in marriage. To waste it's pleasure apart from each other is to miss an opportunity to build romantic love.

But another important reason to make sex exclusive is that when one spouse has sex outside of marriage, the other spouse is usually offended. And as you've seen, it isn't just your husband's sex with other women that would offend you. You are offended whenever he has sex that doesn't include you.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=32&subsublink=294
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/23/11 06:53 PM
Thanks for that, now the hard task of talking to him about it, he is very sensitive of any possible negativeness regarding our privarte bedroom life. Wish me luck please.

PS> I have asked him multiple times to stop masturbating and especially to porn he has told me he stopped then i found the pictures on his smartphone months after he was promising me that he had stopped. Now claims he still masturbated when it is absolutely necessary but does not use images or porn. If you ask me weather i beleive that my answer would be no
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 06/23/11 07:13 PM
I found this from another thread and felt like it was a great start. I wish I would have read that before my WH's A. This was a huge issue in my marriage.

Originally Posted by Doormat_No_More
Dr. Harley is of the opinion that most pornography usage by most men is not an addiction. Read Dr. Harley's recent article on it here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_sex_addiction.html

So knowing that, in most cases, male pornography usage isn't an addiction but is Independent Behavior and Dishonesty wrapped in a tight little bundle, where do you from here? The cure for Independent Behavior is the Policy of Radical Honesty, the Policy of Joint Agreement, and Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation. Your demands that he stop using porn -- and his grudging acquiescence thereto -- haven't worked well so far.

I never had a strong pornography habit, but I did view it from time to time. Our solution proceeded in stages. Note this is just the kind of organic process we fell into as we regularly renegotiated, not a prescribed treatment strategy.

We set up a couple of EPs. I don't compute in private if it can be avoided. If I will be computing in private, my wife must always know when/where. I set up my computer in the family room so that, being in a public place, I'm less likely to be tempted there. My web history is always available for her to view, and I set up a VNC-based "screen logger" that keeps logs around for a couple of weeks if she wants to peruse my history. There's obviously some trust involved there -- I set up the tools, I would know how to disable them -- but in my case, it's been enough.

Stage 1: Agreeing pornography use was Independent Behavior and a Love Buster, we agreed that I would contact my wife regarding her sexual availability before I indulged in self-gratification. We followed this religiously and came up with a code-phrase so we could even POJA about it with kids around: "Honey, are you feeling available today?". This served two purposes:
1. Let her know of my sexual interest in case she was ready/willing to engage in SF that day.
2. The default position was that if her answer to the question was "no", that I was going to take care of my need at some point that day.

Now, this wasn't a perfect solution, but it was one we lived with for about 8 months, and it worked decently well. I fulfilled Radical Honesty in that, when I engaged in self-gratification, she was aware of it. Eventually, though, I pushed for a new agreement, as I'd encountered this advice from Dr. Harley:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Every sexual experience you have should be shared with your spouse

That piqued my interest, so we moved on to Stage 2, which was basically the same as Step 1 with one change: she must be present and aware when I indulged. This meant that if I took care of myself, it was in the same room with her. That experience was a little off-putting for both of us (maybe less so for others), so we moved on to a new agreement after a short time.

We moved on to Stage 3: scheduling our sexual experiences together. I ask the same question, but if the answer is "no" I don't go take care of myself. No important bits will explode if we don't make love; I'll just feel an uncomfortable pressure and sometimes slight pain if we go more than a few days between. When one of us travels, we schedule some "webcam time" together privately. It was a little weird at first, but gets better with time.

If we arrive in a situation where she's sick or unwilling, and it's been more than a couple of days, in those cases she'll ask me to take care of myself. Mutual enthusiastic agreement, and it happens very rarely, but there it is.

It took Radical Honesty on my part to admit my feelings in advance, and to make her aware of the discomfort I experience if we go more than 2-3 days without. I have slipped up from time to time, but Radical Honesty with my spouse has identified why/when/where I slipped up, and WITHOUT ANGER we came to new agreements together to help implement some precautions to prevent recidivism.

Your path may be different. I was reluctant to write this as it's a bit of an over-share, but there is a path out. That path, though, will almost certainly require provisional POJA attempts, where you recognize this isn't the ideal solution, but it's moving toward your goal so the two of you can accustom yourselves to your new reality.

And that's it in a nutshell. "Enthuasiastic agreement" really means that, at a minimum, neither spouse dislikes the idea, but ideally that both LOVE the idea. Learning to make provisional enthusiastic agreements -- agreements for a limited time, or recognizing that you'll probably want to change them in the future but want to start somewhere -- is a transforming MarriageBuilders technique that's totally win/win.
I agree with DNM's methodology and use of POJA as it pertains to the mutual enthusiastic agreement of him and his spouse...


However, I will say that if this were to be a solution, and if pornography were to be used as a stimulant in any case - that the material used would be subject to viewing and approval of the wife.

There is a ton of hyperstimulating, unrealistic trash out there that can cause exactly what has happened to the OP of this thread; the man can no longer sustain an erection for intercourse.

In this case, he has likely driven his reward system to a point in which only hyperstimulating (read unrealistic) depictions or sexual actions will be stimulating.

In this case, Dr. Harley's recommendation is one good approach, and certainly more sustaining of a romantic relationship than more radical interventions.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 07/01/11 02:05 AM
Hello,

Just posting a quick update

All is ok here marriage wise UA time was going according to schedule but unfortunately as of Monday night both me and the hubby have caught a lovely bug off the kids and have been battling with the care of 4 overactive monkeys as well as taking turns to sleep in-between the coughing, runny noses and on off fever (ours not the kids they just passed on their bugs and it did t effect them as bad as us).

So UA time involves cuddling with sore heads and trying not to talk too much as can't coordinate talking and breathing out of mouth at the same time but at least we are still spending time together although I immagined it would be some what less miserable.

this really was the perfect time for the grandparents to take a vacation.

Hope to be back in full swing after the weekend.

I'm off to wrestle with the hubby over the last pack of strepsils.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 07/20/11 12:25 AM
Another quick update

All still going ok, having gastric band op on Friday. H being supportive and affectionate, I'm just stressing.

Can't help the instinct of pushing him away when I'm stressed he's really down about my rejections but I don't feel I can help it and now even occasionally accusing me of being involved in an A even though I hardly leave the house at the moment.

Anyone got any tips that would be great. I dont care about being accused because I'm totally transparent and have nothing to hide but feeling bad because my stressing is making him sad and I don't want to make him sad.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 07/20/11 01:50 AM
Let him be affectionate to you. Stop fighting it and get to 20+ UA time. Let him take care of you. Try it out for a while -- Be vulnerable.

Tough~
just a side note, you are having what should be life changing surgery on friday. have you both been to see a counselor about what your life will look like after. i know you are stressed, but i am sure he is too.

1. if you will be ok and 2. what will be different after. not a medical profession but have see alot of bari situations and it is life changing and fantastic if you commit to doing what the doctor says and seeking help because it will be a new you!

good for you! hope things go well and will be looking forward to hearing from you after. take it easy on yourself!!!

Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 07/20/11 02:09 AM
He is all over me all the time! Not in a sf way but just wanting to have contact all day. He has 2 weeks off work at the moment and is driving me insane.

To give you some examples. I get up and try to get dressed in the morning and the minute start to undress he drags me back to bed or starts pawing at me, fight him off get down stairs and try to do some housework here he is again pawing trying to kiss me, wants me to drop what I'm doing and cuddle him.

Im finding it infuriating at the moment. I just need some space. I need to be able to perform a simple task like getting dressed in the morning without fear of being manhandled.

It's my coping mechanism, when I'm stressed I need to be left alone to clean/ tidy or just run around uninterrupted to burn off the stress energy. I can't achieve that if I have to stop for kisses and cuddles all day.

Then I feel horrible cause I'm rejecting him and he looks brokenhearted. I don't know how to make it better.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 07/20/11 02:22 AM
Chica thanks

I have lost about 55lb on my own but then some of the weight came back, lost it again it came back again. I am on the small side to have this op as I have a BMI of 32 in the uk they do not reccomend this operation to anyone with a BMI under 35 unless they have medical grounds. I had to have extra checks to make sure I could have the band due to not meeting the minimum weight requirement. I have poly cystic ovarian syndrome at causes me lots of issues with hormones, spots, hair, weight gain, chronic fatigue etc so if I get to a healthy BMI the PCSO will likely go into dormant mode meaning no more pizza face for me or having to pluck facial hair daily and more energy.

I know the band is not a miracle cure and i have to work with it for it to be successful. I'm stressed at the moment as I'm on a pre op diet of liquids (lo cal milkshakes) and I'm starving hungry plus can't sleep when I'm hungry ( hence why it's 3 am in the uk and I'm still awake) and as I also gave up a 40 a day cigarette habit 2 months I haven't got anything to fall back on. No smoking or eating and u get a very grouchy mama. Just want the op over so even though I'll still have to follow a diet I won't actually feel like I'm starving hungry.


I know I'm venting and many people will say I should stop and count my blessings for having a h who wants me and a life changing op happening and I agree with that 90% of the time just not now that I am hungry and not sleeping and would sell one arm for a cigarette.
NB, it sounds like you're both trapped in this feedback loop:

*Your H needs you (for EN-meeting; validation; assurance that he is important to you <-- is my primary guess)

*You pull back, seeking space

*He feels rejected, needs to reach out more

*You pull back more, seeking more space

*Etc., etc., etc.

I understand now is a hugely stressful time for you, and, as chickadee mentioned, a lot of unknowns and uncertainty about the future. I wonder, though, if a small talk w/ your H will head him off at the pass, so to speak.

Have you discussed your coping mechanisms with him? Also, I will second what Tough had to say: be vulnerable. It may surprise you what your H does - maybe step up and make things better? If I were in your H's shoes, I would feel blessed indeed if my spouse were to open up to me and give me the opportunity to carry some of the load.

What are your thoughts about having a sit down, O&H discussion with him? I suspect he needs reassurance, and if you two can POJA a plan for that (or whatever it is he's after), you may find his role in the relationship right now becomes less stressful and more supportive from your POV.

Just thinking what would help me if I were your H - I know I do similar things w/ my DH, seeking assurances and whatnot.
you are funny! 40 cig a day, thats pretty bad, you are jonesing. deep breaths 3 min. i know you want to smack me now. or just got have sx with your hubby. you have another outlet waiting for you in bed. it will make you both feel better!!

and you will get some sleep!

no food no cigs, surgery and he keeps pawing at you. the best part of your day was the pawing. go back to bed!!
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 07/20/11 02:40 AM
Mrs v
Thanks for bringing some rationality to the chaos, you are spot on,
I have communicated with him in a good way about what's going on lad he does understand but that does not stop him from feeling rejected. I then try and meet him halfway and offer cuddles etc when he back off a bit but I'm finding little things hard and I am scared of being selfish because right now it seams to be all about me and I don't like that as I feel guilty.

So we have done some good work to a dress this by POJA ing lots .

For example I'm having my operation in a clinic 4 hours drive away from home, in that town they house the football stadium of the team my h support so we agreed that while I'm having the op he has booked a stadium tour so he will get something out of the trip and I booked hi into the stadiums hotel for the night so he can have the full experience. I love doing little gestures like that for him and I don't feel as bad for all the selfish care I'll require post op and I feel more affectionate a little less guilty and stressed.

On the other hand he is slim and eats tons and does not put on weight no matter what he eats, he spends all day grazing on food and when I'm on a stict pre op diet and hungry I'm getting irritates with him stuffing his face 24/7 I can't really blame him he's just doing what he normally does but I do get irritated and tend to back away from him. Things like that I don't know how to tackle.

Our communication is good and I have let him see me cry these past couple of days and all in all he has been supportive. I'm just mad at myself for pushing him away and making him sad.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 07/20/11 02:43 AM
Thanks chic your post made me laugh that woke him up (I'm using I pad in bed next to him asleep) and now he's pawing again.
Guess better go pretend to be asleep lol
Posted By: AndyM Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 07/20/11 02:45 AM
NB - FWIW - something to ponder. My WW lost about 50 Kg before she met me. She looked good to me, but she did have excess skin as a result of the weight loss. (For the record, she looked GREAT to me - her H) This bothered WW very much and for her 40th birthday, I 'wanted' to give her something special. Well, I did - she got the cosmetic surgery to remove the skin. IMVHO - this was the straw that broke the camel's back and within 3 months she was in an EA that went PA a couple months later.

So, this is a potentially life changing event. Be aware of the impact this will have good or bad. In my WWs case, the initial surgery was botched and she needed follow up surgery 3 months later. She needs another one or two surgeries to correct the first one now. In the meantime, her coping mechanism was to have an affair and walk away from me and her 5 year old son.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 07/20/11 02:54 AM
Andy I have a friend who did exactly what your ww did lost a lot of weight has skin tuck and met her affair partner on the ward she has her skin tuck. She is now divorced affair partner has passed away and the kids have no contact with their dad.

I have the luxury of having mb and knowing about and having boundaries in place to prevent me doing this mistake. I'm not going to say I'm different I won't feel like this or that because Im not psychic I dont know how I'll feel but what I do know is that im taking extraordinary precautions to protect my marriage in thinness or with fat.

Thanks for sharing and for the heads up I really appreciate it. I would feel devastated if I paid for my h to better himself and then for him to do that to me my prayers go to you and the kid.
Originally Posted by NB28
Mrs v
Thanks for bringing some rationality to the chaos, you are spot on,
I have communicated with him in a good way about what's going on lad he does understand but that does not stop him from feeling rejected. I then try and meet him halfway and offer cuddles etc when he back off a bit but I'm finding little things hard and I am scared of being selfish because right now it seams to be all about me and I don't like that as I feel guilty.

So we have done some good work to a dress this by POJA ing lots .

For example I'm having my operation in a clinic 4 hours drive away from home, in that town they house the football stadium of the team my h support so we agreed that while I'm having the op he has booked a stadium tour so he will get something out of the trip and I booked hi into the stadiums hotel for the night so he can have the full experience. I love doing little gestures like that for him and I don't feel as bad for all the selfish care I'll require post op and I feel more affectionate a little less guilty and stressed.

On the other hand he is slim and eats tons and does not put on weight no matter what he eats, he spends all day grazing on food and when I'm on a stict pre op diet and hungry I'm getting irritates with him stuffing his face 24/7 I can't really blame him he's just doing what he normally does but I do get irritated and tend to back away from him. Things like that I don't know how to tackle.

Our communication is good and I have let him see me cry these past couple of days and all in all he has been supportive. I'm just mad at myself for pushing him away and making him sad.

Hm, perhaps I'm interpreting this incorrectly. From your description, it makes sense to me that this is not about you being unselfish and doing things for him; rather, it is about you being vulnerable and letting him do things for you.

Maybe he needs to feel important to you/needed by you. Maybe he is worried about this surgery/the future and is expressing it via "pawing"/SF.

What has he told you re: your thoughts on these things when you two have talked about them?

Also, he may not be connecting the dots re: the pre-op diet, no smoking, irritability, etc. He also may not realize he is grazing and it is affecting you. Have you mentioned these things to him? It may seem obvious, but that doesn't mean everyone connects the dots - believe me, I know! smile

Or, as I mentioned, I could be totally wrong. It would certainly not be the first time! laugh
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 07/20/11 03:22 AM
Mrs v
I'll will have to have a talk about this with him tomorrow I just have to watch the way i say things as when irritated I'm sure I can be less than tactful but now I have a path to follow I can prepare in advance what I want to say and watch how I say it.

thinking about you today/tomorrow. hope it all goes well
Posted By: AndyM Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 07/22/11 01:02 PM
NB28 - thanks for the kind words. It's vey devastating emotionally and there's a financial price as well. That's minor, but it's still there. Hope all goes well in surgery!
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 07/23/11 09:28 AM
Hey MB

Op was 14 hours ago being discharged in an hour or so, catching up with MB.
H wa great kept me calm and was very helpful. I'm not in pain and feel like all the stress is finally over.

Everything went well we had a lot of laughs on the 4 hours drive to the clinic, I'm looking forward to the drive home and getting some more UA time.

Thanks for everyone's kind words and support.

stay well rest and let him take care of you at least for the weekend!
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/18/11 01:05 AM
Yet another update

All was going well with ENs, POJA, reading and learning but not so good on the UA time due to kids being off school and family members invading our house from other countries.

Having more frequent loved up feelings than I did before so something must be working.

Then tonight happened.

We were invited to go cinema with friends and before the movie we decided to grab a quick dinner. I didnt mind where we went because I can't eat much anyway thanks to the gastric band so didn't think much of it until they chose the restaurant chain WH took OW to just before they had sex both times. I thought I would cope with going there and explained to my friends (who are aware of the A and the restaurant issue) that I wanted to replace the bad triggers of that place with happy memories of our night out also didn't want to spoil the night etc.

So it turns out I was in wishful thinking mode because the minute we walked into that restaurant I was super triggered. Wanted to know what ow had ordered wanted to know what he ordered, what they talked about at dinner etc. H was good but didn't trigger him at all which again left me feeling alone and withdrawn from him once again.

Should I still be avoiding A related places 3 years after the A? Or am I just over reacting?

Any insight would be appreciated
Posted By: Scotland Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/18/11 01:56 AM
Don't know much about marital recovery, except what I have read on here.

I wouldn't say that you are overreacting, you were triggered.

In all other ways, do you feel that WH has answered all of your questions? Is there any other place, or thing that you would feel the need to "reclaim?" I would suggest you get that done sooner rather than later. It is a big hit to your recovery efforts.

Originally Posted by NB28
So it turns out I was in wishful thinking mode because the minute we walked into that restaurant I was super triggered. Wanted to know what ow had ordered wanted to know what he ordered, what they talked about at dinner etc. H was good but didn't trigger him at all which again left me feeling alone and withdrawn from him once again.

Should I still be avoiding A related places 3 years after the A? Or am I just over reacting?

Any insight would be appreciated

NB28,

I could have written your post myself last week while on vacation. We went to our getaway spot which we discovered shortly after D-Day #1. Unfortunately, OW started to follow us there. So the place is now a big trigger. Wow ...thought I had it under better control.

I tried to avoid talking about the A but ended up drilling DH on how does someone look their wife and family in the eye and lie to them for a year. Had a complete meltdown with tears and weeping. He offered to never go back again if that's what I needed.

That gave me the courage to decide not to let that skank steal my beloved get away spot. I will not give it up.

I do still avoid all other triggers with a vengeance ...even 3 years out.

You are not alone.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/18/11 10:22 PM
Hey Scotland

You really can see beyond what's written, that's quite a skill you got there.

The fact is that although my H answered all the questions once he was cornered there was also several incidents of trickle truth, I discovered the A by simply following my instincts and I have this huge feeling there is something that my H has hidden regarding his A.

I don't know what it is but it's such a strong feeling it sometimes interferes with recovery. I have been honest with him about how I feel but he still does not divulge any additional info and plays the I don't remember card on many things. How can he one minute remember what food they ordered when they went out for a meal Just before having sex yet forget the details of the sexual act?

I really don't know how to feel about this. What I do know is that when he Answered the questions I had yesterday about the restaurant meal I was able to let the consuming a thoughts go.

It's a weird balance on one hand I want to let the A go and move on and reclaim things on the other I can't let it go without bringing it up first and asking about what is eating away at me.

Good news I guess that if I'm triggered it means I still care because on some days all I can think about is a divorce because I just can't seam to love him the way I should anymore. But if I'm getting Jelous about a meal they shared I must care more than I think.

Surviving an affair is definitely a minefield thank God we have a map to navigate with in the books and MB site.


Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/18/11 10:31 PM
Poker

I truly understand what u went through, I'm lucky that this particular restaurant chain isn't one of my favourites. Had he taken her to our favourite (and often wedding anniversary celebration place) restaurant I don't know how calm I would be going back there.

I just struggle when ordinary people don't understand why I can't go near certain places because they are triggers. They make me feel like I should be over it already and so I push myself to get over it but as much as I want to it does not work like that, I do trigger and it's not by choice.


Originally Posted by NB28
plays the I don't remember card on many things. How can he one minute remember what food they ordered when they went out for a meal Just before having sex yet forget the details of the sexual act?

Funny you should say that NB. I asked that similar question a few days ago. My FWH has very limited recollection of the hurtful things but can remember the mundane. The consensus seemed to be that they really do not remember ...the hurtful things.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/18/11 11:42 PM
I really don't like that, I want him to be remember and be creeped out by what he has done, I even got him to try hypnotherapy to remember but that didnt work it's like he has a permanent mental block that connects any emotions to the A.

Sigh

Another reason why I just want to give up.
Originally Posted by NB28
I really don't like that, I want him to be remember and be creeped out by what he has done, I even got him to try hypnotherapy to remember but that didnt work it's like he has a permanent mental block that connects any emotions to the A.

I think hypnotherapy only works on people who are open to it. Since it did not work on your WH, there is a good chance that he IS creeped out by it ! And even if he is blocking it ... it is still there deep inside him creeping him out.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/19/11 12:17 AM
NB, a lot of BSs experience PTSD or many of the symptoms. It is not something you can just get over. It is something that needs to be dealt with. Avoiding triggers can work, but sometimes you don't know what will trigger you. hug
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/19/11 01:25 AM
Thanks poker thats comforting and makes sense to me so I will be optimistic.

Scotland thanks I did recognise the PTSD early on as I was having flashbacks of d day over and over again then was physically sick for months after d day reliving all the details of the A while ww was peacefully in slumberland next to me, I would take one look at him remember what he had done and find myself running to the bathroom to be sick. I doubt this is common in MB.

In the end given that H himself was my trigger I had to withdraw emotionally from him. And been struggling to reconnect since.

I did seek help from my dr soon after d day but was not taken seriously until 2 suicide attempts. But even then that help was temporary.

I don't feel suicidal nor as traumatised as I did in the early days so I thought I was strong enough to face the trigger places now I know my limits will stick to avoiding the triggers.

I even stopped stalking her fb page and don't give the OW much though which if you have ever read my thread will know it's a major step in itself.

Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/27/11 10:14 PM
So the question for today is ........

Do I have the right to be angry or disappointed?

Here is whats going on


My 30 th birthday is coming up on September the 6th, every birthday I expect nothing and I get nothing due to the financial restraints that come with having a big family and currently being a stay at home mum and any birthday money my parents in law give me I will spend on the kids school equipment etc.

This year we are financially much better off, H has a good job, I received some money from my inheritance fund left to me by my grandmother and to be honest I have worked my backside off for the marriage and family so feeling like this time I do deserve something ( the taker in me is screaming the house down metaphorically speaking) and it's a special birthday as it's my 30 th.

So the original plan was for us to take a trip away together to celebration (we were hoping to go to venice Italy) my parents in law live locally yet never have the kids or babysit evenings so TWO years ago ( yes a whole two years in advance) we asked them if they would have the kids for 3 days so we could go away for my 30 th birthday and they agreed and we spoke about this agreement quite frequently over the past two years and they never changed their minds until....

Out of the blue they booked a holiday for themselves for the exact time we planned to go away, they have already had 3 weeks away this summer as their annual holiday so another 2 weeks away is unusual.

They didn't apologise or talk to us about it, we just got handed their holiday schedule details and I was too speechless to say anything.



Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/27/11 10:20 PM
H did not say anything and that has upset me, I have always got on well with the in laws , even when mt MIL told H that he did not love me and the only reason he was with me was because he felt sorry for me ( this happened when he was in full blown affair but she didn't know he was having an a when she said this to him) I forgave her never spoke to her about it and just got on with life. He is her only child and she has never fully accepted his leaving home and settling with me.

I don't want to cause issues with the in laws but I'm just so hurt all over again and thinking of giving them back anything they give me for my birthday as I don't want anything from them. When I'm hurt I just go in cut off mode but the kids love their grandparents and I just don't want to hurt my kids.


Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/27/11 10:30 PM
So that's the first issue,

Second is that I got a call from my best friend asking me what did I plan to do on my birthday as he wanted to arrange a party at his house (yes before u get the red flags out my best friend is a man but he is also very gay and has a lovely partner whom he will marry in April), I told him I didn't have any plans but better check with my H in case he had plans for us.

Anyway to cut to the case the hubby has zero plans and hasn't even given it a single thought. That really really hurts. I have literally given up on any romantic gestures from him over the year but I would still like him to make some kind of effort for the important dates ( it's one of my major ENs) . Last year was our 10th wedding anniversary and we didn't even exchange a card this year things are much better but I'm still left with the same feeling of worthlessness.

What do I do now????
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/27/11 10:51 PM
Please anyone out there to help, I really need it, just had argument over this situation and major lbs flying around ( told him his actions are making me feel inferior to the OW, told him I didn't want to even see him on my b day) he's going to bed and I'm just crying hard feeling so low
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 12:44 AM
For the sake of my sanity ill have to say this..

I love mb, I love the principals and I love the Harleys.

**edit** I read and read and read in order to try and learn more, I help out when I can, I didnt do a plan b so I don't tend to comment on them, I did plan A before MB so again I don't say much there but I did do an effective exposure and this helped so try to pass on suggestion and help on this. So I have to ask this why do I keep getting the could shoulders from the mb forum members?

I was in desperate need of help 2 days ago and all I got on my forum was crickets **edit**

You lot make me feel like the reject kid In school. Where all the grown ups gone?

**edit**
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 01:01 AM
NB - I read your post the other day. It is hard for me to give you encouragement when you have yourself in Plan C.

You are still bringing up the affair and it is almost three years old.

You have no plan for recovery as stated in your sig line. You know how this works.

Your WH either gets on board or you will continuously go down this horrific path. Your life will remain this awful and will slowly get worse.

My only thought is to really look at yourself and why you are still in this awful state. Why do you keep yourself in this marriage?

Why are you still bringin up OW?

Reevaluate how you handle your AO's and DJ's.

The answer lies in you text above. You threw us a bunch of DJs, can I assume you are still speaking to your WH this way as well?

**edit**

It is one long DJ at us. This suggests to me your "No plan for recovery" really needs to begin with the one wanting to change her WH.

Tough~
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 01:17 AM
It's tough

I am in recovery that's the plan, reading the books, meeting ENs,no dj, ua time etc is that a plan! Or am i missing something here?

There will be grey areas I will need help with and that's whybi came on here seeking advice. For example the MIL, does not appear to support my M do I cut her out, forgive?

As far as bringing up the A goes I was expressing how his actions made me feel I was being open and honest, am I supposed to be open and honest about everything but hide any feelings I have about the A?

My marriage has improved but is not yet where It should be hence why I still come here fro advice. **edit** How I feel is not a DJ against the forum it's how I feel.

Me communicating how feel can be taken as a DJ or just as a frustrated forum member who deserved better. I come on here take the good the bad and the ugly comments and work my backside off to improve myself and my marriage not my WH as I realise I can only control myself that's it what he does it's up to him but I do reserve the right to get upset about bad a actions.



Posted By: violette Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 01:19 AM
Hi - I mostly lurk and don't feel like I am qualified to give marriage advice but I can tell you how I handled my birthday and anniversary. I had been very disappointed with valentines day so my therapist told me to explain to my husband exactly what my expectations where and what I needed.

I told him for my birthday that all I wanted was a birthday card. I wanted it on my birthday and not two days late. It was not a special bday like yours.

For my anniversary (20th), I told him that I wanted a night out just the two of us. I wanted to dress up and not have any interruptions. The restaurant did not matter. It could be McDonalds. I just wanted some time alone.

He did both. He even bought me a bday gift and gave it a few days early so he wouldn't miss the deadline smile He just needed some guidance.

So think about what would make you happy on your birthday and tell your husband what you want. I have 4 children too. When they were little, I would have loved help with the housework or helping with the kids. He needs to understand that gifts do not always have to cost money.

Sorry that your in-laws bailed on you.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 01:21 AM
Ps my comments are NOT aimed at every single other forum member. Those who act I the way described are fully aware of their behaviour and will understand exactly what I'm venting about.
NB28, the issues you listed above are specific conflicts that don't belong on this forum, IMO. They have nothing to do with an affair and I don't come here to help people resolve every conflict when, if they had used this program, they would have the skills to resolve themselves. You have been here for 3 years, plenty long enough to know how to resolve conflicts. This is not a conflict resolution forum. The purpose here is to learn the skills so you can resolve them yourself.

I am sorry you are hurting, but I have absolutely no interest in helping someone resolve conflicts. Maybe someone else does, I don't. And I post where I choose to post.

Doesn't mean I have anything against you personally, I don't. I think you post some awesome advice to newcomers. Doesn't mean I want to help someone resolve their conflicts. If you want to learn to resolve your conflicts, start reading the articles here. Read the books. Educate yourself!

Originally Posted by NB28
Ps my comments are NOT aimed at every single other forum member. Those who act I the way described are fully aware of their behaviour and will understand exactly what I'm venting about.

Do you feel that other posters on this board OWE you something? I will point out that the other posters are volunteering their time here just like you. They don't owe anyone anything because their time is completely voluntary. I have very minimal time on this forum, and I am VERY SELECTIVE about to whom I post. I only post to those I believe I have something to offer. And I cannot help some people; I am not that skilled. I post to those I believe are serious and proactive.

We ALL pick and choose to whom we post. No one is entitled to get posts from anyone because we are ALL volunteers.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 01:40 AM
ML I read the books and Although I have been here 3 years I only started to do the work about 1 year ago.

I believed marriage builders is about marriage help, my "conflicts" are about my marriage they aren't some random things about my neighbour, a tv show or movie I saw last week.

I don't get what you mean about conflicts but I'll have to take your view on it as your the vet round here.

I am In no way dictating where you or others have to reply simply pointing out the way I am made to feel. Post don't post that's an individuals choice I just don't get why people post irrelevant chit chat so easily yet when someone is hurting and needs direction they are no where to be seen (unless it's a newbie poster as those are always given maximum attention understandably so).


Quote
I am in recovery that's the plan, reading the books, meeting ENs,no dj, ua time etc is that a plan! Or am i missing something here?
I can tell you why I haven't posted to you, NB. You've been here longer than I have! You are posting issues that I would expect you to already know the answer to! Why in the WORLD would you tell your H that you feel inferior to the OW...YEARS LATER??? That piece of trash shouldn't even be in your vocabulary now!

You say you're in recovery. I don't see it. I see you dealing with issues that should have been addressed and wrapped up years ago! If you've really applied MB principles these issues would be resolved!

I don't see that you are in recovery. It's easy to rattle off the acronyms to show that you have more than a passing knowledge of MB, but to rattle these acronyms off while you're melting down about a birthday party is totally confusing to me.

Its looks like you and your H have not carried MB concepts into your lives. It looks like you read the books, laid them down, briskly dusted off your hands and said "Okay, all fixed!" Only you're seeing now that it doesn't work that way.

I don't mean to be harsh with you. But when a long-time poster comes here and lambastes everyone with a broad brush of "You people are mean!" I must respond.

Your post was extremely offensive to me.
NB28, I don't come here to resolve specific conflicts for people when they can do that themselves. This forum is the emergency room. I am going to help the people who are bleeding on the floor. I have full confidence in you that you can resolve your conflicts on your own.

You and your husband are the only ones who can solve your conflicts, all you have to do is pick up the freely given tools.

Marriage Builders is not a conflict resolution forum but a forum to learn those skills to do that yourself.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 01:48 AM
NB - I see your marriage crippling along. I am not sure what you are calling "Recovery".

Your previous posts suggest your husband is still quite wayward, and the conflict concerning your birthday suggests there isn't any POJA happening. I see a wife using AO, SD, and DJ's to get her husband to do what she wants, and when he doesn't she uses more AO's, DJ's, and SD's to still get what she wants.

My thought is to have your WH start posting on here again to really get this marriage rolling down the path of true recovery.

If you would have approached your birthday as a POJA question, do you think you may have seen more traffic?

With 3 years out since d-day this thread should be in Recovery, where you are constantly working out these types of issues.

It is just painful to see your pain and your painful marriage, when the choice is yours to have a much better one that you are actually living.

Tough~
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 01:50 AM
"We ALL pick and choose to whom we post. No one is entitled to get posts from anyone because we are ALL volunteers."

All i am saying it's that it's a shame people volunteer in a very clicky way. People come on here to get help not to join a popularity contest.

I am not the first person to feel this way however I have had the guts to say it unlike others who have just simply left the forum.

Like you ML I am just expressing my POV. I just hope that people acting this way will try to see their actions are hurting others and maybe try to read some other posts rather than just spend all their volunteered time on their preferred MB buddies.

And in answer to your question I don't have one or two people in mind it's about a few people all of whom seam to act the same way.

Originally Posted by NB28
Post don't post that's an individuals choice I just don't get why people post irrelevant chit chat so easily yet when someone is hurting and needs direction they are no where to be seen

Again, that is not what I come here for and I wouldn't suggest using this forum as a support resource when your feelings are hurt. A better resource for that might be your mother or a close friend.
Originally Posted by NB28
"We ALL pick and choose to whom we post. No one is entitled to get posts from anyone because we are ALL volunteers."

All i am saying it's that it's a shame people volunteer in a very clicky way. People come on here to get help not to join a popularity contest.

I have no idea what any of this means except maybe you are lashing out at others because you feel entitled to get help. But you are not entitled. I have a right, just like every other poster to help whom I choose. I am not interested in helping someone solve their arguments. I come here to help people whose spouses are in affairs.

I didn't not help you because I "volunteer in a clicky way" or want to be popular, but because I have no interest in helping someone with specific conflicts. Sorry. frown
Originally Posted by NB28
Like you ML I am just expressing my POV. I just hope that people acting this way will try to see their actions are hurting others and maybe try to read some other posts rather than just spend all their volunteered time on their preferred MB buddies.

No, their actions are not hurting others, NB28. What is hurting you is your unrealistic expectations about this board. The purpose of this forum is not to resolve your every conflict or assuage your hurt feelings, but to help people whose marriages are being ravaged by affairs. Nor is anyone here obliged to post to anyone. They are all volunteers and can post where ever they choose, if at all. There is no standard here that says anyone has to post to you. NO ONE has that entitlement.

You are hurt because of your unrealistic expectations. I hope you really think on that and understand that your disappointment was caused by you and not anyone else.

You went to the barber shop looking for an oil change and are now mad at the barber shop for not giving you an oil change.

Do you see what I mean?
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 02:05 AM
This entire thread confuses me.

What am I missing? Why doesn't NB28 warrant help when so many that come back years later do? Many over on 101 or Recovery, and even our friend Scotty post after years of MB.

Plenty come back here solely for support, refreshers, encouragement, etc..

Why is this poster different?

Quote
All i am saying it's that it's a shame people volunteer in a very clicky way. People come on here to get help not to join a popularity contest.

I am not the first person to feel this way however I have had the guts to say it unlike others who have just simply left the forum.
This is just beyond the pale, NB. I am so offended that I don't know which way is up.

We 'volunteer in a clicky way'??? NOW who's the child??

This is NOT A PLAYGROUND. This is a community of people who have survived infidelity. We draw no salary. We are not compensated for overtime. I have stayed up late, posting to people who come here desperate for help. I don't know them from Adam and will more than likely never meet them IRL. As it should be. I am an anonymous peer. Just like everyone else here.

If you are feeling a sting of jealousy because some posters have a sense of family that you don't share, perhaps it is because these same posters have been united in a common goal of helping others while you have not. Perhaps it is because they understand the concepts here and are of one voice in their advice while you are not. To expect them to NOT bond in a community way is ridiculous. To take exception to the few precious moments when they take a break from the serious business of helping devastated posters in order to relax and actually make a joke on a thread is shallow and selfish of you.

One of the most important threads we have right now is on Other Topics. It's a simple little thread that talks about what people are having for dinner. I can believe that you are incensed that posters are actually posting there. How DARE we volunteers have a moment of fun or pause in our unrelenting quest to quash all infidelity!! mad

If there are people who have left this site because of these things, I wish them well and bid them adieu.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 02:14 AM
NB - I see your own insecurities coming out in your DJ's. It has been 3 years since the affair.

Beating your WH up over the OW should never happen. You and him should be well beyond this stage.

I hear fear, anxiety, and desparation in your posts. I can see it in your recovery.

How you are posting to us is reflected in the relationship you have with your WH. You both may be on the verge of another affair.

NB can you see this within yourself? Can you see the pattern here?

POJA solves this - the fact your WH isn't interested in your birthday is a serious red flag. His love is draining.

Can you both start posting here? Your marriage is crumbling and we cannot help you. You have the tools, you know what needs to happen.

You are causing your own misery and pain. IT can be fixed today. IT can start now. What are you willing to do to save your marriage?

Tough~
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 02:19 AM
Too many things to reply to here is a quick one


1)I was POJA the birthday invite thats why I asked H If he had any plans and ended up in the argument.

2) H does post on here in separate forum

3) we are in recovery because we are reading And applying mb principals.

4) I am human I don't get all of the tools I am supposed to have got by now. As stated before started to really look and accept mb principals 1 year ago, the other 2 years was still depressed angry and a mess. Still a mess now but attest got some braincells back in action now that im not literally reliving DDay and vomiting every time I drive past a Nandos restaurant (PTSD related to A)

5)I am expressing my POV on certain forum behaviour was not intended to directly offend anyone ( although realise that reaction is inevitable), still hoping to help the mb members who need a little bit more attention but aren't classed as urgent.

6) I am disappointed about my b day because things are going well when things aren't going well I don't expect anything and go into cut off mode.

7) my h chooses what he does however he has to live with the consequences of his actions, his affair led to enormous withdrawal in the love bank, his behaviour for 2 years after that only made the overdraft worse. Taking care of ENs and doing nice gestures especially at special occasions fill up the depleted love bank. If this is considered controlling his behaviour then there is no way I'm reading the same books as everyone else on here.

8) I don't believe any amount of marriage building coaching and recovery can make any BS forget the A and NEVER think of it or bring it up again. If an a is more traumatic than loosing a child there is no way it can or will be forgotten. So why am I seen as abnormal for still bringing it up when I'm triggered even if it's 3 years later. It comes up when I think of it as it's now a shared painful experience, or should I just bottle it up?
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 02:20 AM
"How you are posting to us is reflected in the relationship you have with your WH. You both may be on the verge of another affair."

This is why I thought NB warranted help, as I do anyone (almost).
Originally Posted by Surfer88
This entire thread confuses me.

What am I missing? Why doesn't NB28 warrant help when so many that come back years later do? Many over on 101 or Recovery, and even our friend Scotty post after years of MB.

Plenty come back here solely for support, refreshers, encouragement, etc..

Why is this poster different?

I am confused. If you feel she warrants help, where is your post? If any poster feels like posting, they MAY POST. However, no one here is obliged to post anywhere they do not choose to post.

But, nothing is stopping you. Where is your post to her?

And this poster is different in that she is not even using very basic MB concepts even after 3 years here. That tells me she doesn't take this program serious enough to actually use it. And that is fine, that is her prerogative. But it doesn't mean I have interest in posting here.

My point here is that no one here is obliged to post to anyone. We are all volunteers. No one is ENTITLED to get posts. Therefore, it makes no sense to chastise other posters for not living up to some unrealistic, arbitrary standard.
Originally Posted by Surfer88
"How you are posting to us is reflected in the relationship you have with your WH. You both may be on the verge of another affair."

This is why I thought NB warranted help, as I do anyone (almost).

Again, where is your post? CAn you give me the link?
Originally Posted by Surfer88
"How you are posting to us is reflected in the relationship you have with your WH. You both may be on the verge of another affair."

This is why I thought NB warranted help, as I do anyone (almost).

I went back to 9-25-10 and I don't see a post by you. If you feel she warrants help, then where is your post?
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 02:25 AM
"My point here is that no one here is obliged to post to anyone. We are all volunteers. No one is ENTITLED to get posts. Therefore, it makes no sense to chastise other posters for not living up to some unrealistic, arbitrary standard."

Never would I imply anyone is obliged. Mel. And, I don't post where I am not qualified to as you might or not see in my posts. I never pretend to empathize where I cannot. My posts are 99% directing back to MB concepts versus personal experience.

I leave the personal experience to those that have had it.
Quote
I don't believe any amount of marriage building coaching and recovery can make any BS forget the A and NEVER think of it or bring it up again. If an a is more traumatic than loosing a child there is no way it can or will be forgotten. So why am I seen as abnormal for still bringing it up when I'm triggered even if it's 3 years later. It comes up when I think of it as it's now a shared painful experience, or should I just bottle it up?
You've made my point regarding not using MB tools. I never said anything about FORGETTING the affair, did I? Please don't change my words to suit your argument. I'm saying you should not be bringing that broad up at this point! It is clear that there is an issue there that has not been addressed, if you are STILL bringing her up as a battering ram for your H when something isn't going your way!

NB, I did the same thing - IN THE BEGINNING OF RECOVERY. I don't talk about OW now. She doesn't have that power now. We have been diligent in applying MB principles and have been so busy falling madly back in love that there's really no time in my day for that kind of foolishness. We just don't have time to give OW any kind of head space.

Why do you feel you can't say the same, if you are as solidly in recovery as you say you are?

And not once did I say you were abnormal. Did anyone?? Please don't rewrite our words to buttress your disgruntlement.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 02:33 AM
? Any post from me ever? Or, from/to NB? I very much doubt that I have ever posted to NB.

Sheesh. I'm out. Was just simply and honestly asking as a MB reader and observer...not intersted in a pi--ing match of who has posted or not, etc. I was simply asking an honest question...not judging why you think what you do. I was ASKING why.

Originally Posted by Surfer88
? Any post from me ever? Or, from/to NB? I very much doubt that I have ever posted to NB.

Sheesh. I'm out. Was just simply and honestly asking as a MB reader and observer...not intersted in a pi--ing match of who has posted or not, etc. I was simply asking an honest question...not judging why you think what you do. I was ASKING why.

I think if you are going to suggest that a poster "warrants" help that you should be helping yourself. No poster here is obliged to help anyone and no poster has to justify that choice. It is all completely voluntary.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 02:44 AM

"We ALL pick and choose to whom we post. No one is entitled to get posts from anyone because we are ALL volunteers."

All i am saying it's that it's a shame people volunteer in a very clicky way. People come on here to get help not to join a popularity contest.



I have no idea what any of this means except maybe you are lashing out at others because you feel entitled to get help. But you are not entitled. I have a right, just like every other poster to help whom I choose. I am not interested in helping someone solve their arguments. I come here to help people whose spouses are in affairs.

I didn't not help you because I "volunteer in a clicky way" or want to be popular, but because I have no interest in helping someone with specific conflicts.


I am just as entitles as any other BS to get help in using any applying MB principals. This is going to be offensive but I don't expect you to understand as I haven't seen many of your posts ignored or shunned. You must be doing great at your marriage and are clearly gifted because you have all the answers/ friends/ mother or whatever you need to help you figure out what you need to figure out.

I on the other hand have none of the above so need a little extra help. You don't deam my needs great enough or good enough or relevant enough etc fair enough that's your POV and we are all entitled to on of those.

I still do not agree what I have asked about are conflicts they are issues important enough In my life to cause me distress. We all have different buttons that can be painful if pressed mine are different than yours but this does not make them any less stressful or painful.

I have always admired the way you help the newbies get the point accross and guide them to the light but when their immediate need for help vanishes what are they supposed to do? Learn everything in a set time if not they are on their own? people post here for years after their A are you now implying that SAA thread is for urgent cases? Because the title is SURVIVING an affair not GETTING through the first week after DDay.

Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 02:49 AM

>>help that you should be helping yourself<<<

Not if I'm not qualified, and I know my own limitations.

I often call out for help from you and other vets for those I see in need of help that I can't or shouldn't provide, and will continue to do so.

Whether one chooses to step in, of course, is completely voluntary.

I was again asking why...honestly. Sorry that you were offended by the question.
Originally Posted by NB28
I am just as entitles as any other BS to get help in using any applying MB principals.

No Ma'am. You are not entitled to any posts at all. NO ONE here has any such entitlement. I have no such entitlement and neither do you. The very suggstion is offensive as hell to me. None of us are princesses.

And yes, many of my posts are ignored. Have you ever seen my famous "goodbye cruel world" from 2003? Well, my feelings were hurt once because my posts were ignored and I played the DRAMA QUEEN. dramaqueen [people still tease me about it to this day!] I figured out I was not the center of the universe and had no call to expect to have every post acknowledged. You don't either.

And with that, I will take my leave and move onto other threads. Take care...
NB28, I am ignored EVERY DAY on this forum. I spend time typing out posts to newcomers and am ignored. Where is my special entitlement to always be acknowledged? Why do you have an expectation that you should get a special treatment no one else gets?

I get ignored every day and I long stopped caring. If a person ignores me, I move on to the next thread. I figure they didn't need my post and that is ok with me. I don't take it personally.

MaritalBliss, do you ever feel ignored?

itstoughlove, do you ever feel ignored?

ok, I am really, really leaving this time! grin
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 03:08 AM
Marital bliss

"because some posters have a sense of family that you don't share, perhaps it is because these same posters have been united in a common goal of helping others while you have not. Perhaps it is because they understand the concepts here and are of one voice in their advice while you are not. To expect them to NOT bond in a community way is ridiculous. "

This is really unfair and quite a hurtful comment, if I didn't have a sense of family I would be out there taking the easy road, sleeping around, cheating back, drinking my way into oblivion rather than face the right but hard way that involves repairing my marriage. You haven't taken the time to know who I am therefore please do not comment on my charachter, you have made quite a few statements about my personality that are very inappropriate. I have not attacked anyone personally I was making a comments about a general issue I am finding I'm the mb forum and I have heard people complain about before.

**edit**
Posted By: GloveOil Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by Surfer88
...Why doesn't NB28 warrant help when so many that come back years later do? Many over on 101 or Recovery, and even our friend Scotty post after years of MB.

Plenty come back here solely for support, refreshers, encouragement, etc..

Why is this poster different?
Surfer, what you're missing is that when someone rhetorically stomps her feet and holds her breath because she hasn't gotten attention over a mere 2-day span from a bunch of strangers on an online forum where people volunteer their [limited] time, and makes a blanket accusation of "cliquey-ness", it's completely uncalled for. (In my opinion.) And I speak as a member of no clique; I don't know the real-life name of a single poster here, and I don't exchange recipes with anyone laugh ( a fact for which everyone should be grateful), although I have no aspersions to cast upon those who do. Sometimes when I post here, I force myself to revisit stuff I'd rather never revisit again. And I assume it's that way for a lot of posters here. And so if they want to take a break for a few days during the summer holidays to exchange recipes, as a harmless diversion, I don't begrudge them that. Nor should NB28.

I do have a soft spot for NB28 and her DH & their marriage because they were among the first couples I tried to help after I got out of my own fog. (NB, I hope you're reading.) I am still rooting for the two of them.

However, I simply have not kept up on NB's latest thread. There are literally hundreds & hundreds of threads here on these boards, and I only have time to follow a tiny fraction of them. Name-changes make long-term tracking of posters' situations more difficult, too.

And while I have a lot of experience on some matters, that experience is within a pretty narrow range of marital circumstances. I'm no trained counselor or therapist -- I am just one lucky SOB who happened to have a great wife & to have done some things right in a post-affair recovery. My situation is pertinent for some, not for all. I for one don't feel that I do anyone much good when I try to wade into situations that are much beyond the pale of my experience or knowledge.

Now, I assume that many other posters may be the same -- there may be situations that are "right up their alley", yet there may be other situations that are not ones into which they feel competent to chime in with any great knowledge that would be helpful.

I don't do online hugs, even for men. I'm not good at it. If that's what NB was/is looking for, I'm not much good for that.

If NB needs to be told, after almost 2 years of access to the Harley materials, that it was way out of line for her to bring up OW in an argument with her DH having to do with poor communication with in-laws & with one another re: travel plans & child-sitting expectations, in my judgement, my saying it again probably isn't going to make much difference, but I think that if she asks politely, she can find other people to tell her anyway, without the wholly unseemly theatrics of disparaging the volunteer posters here and impugning their motivations.

And similarly, my suggesting to NB's husband that, knowing as he surely does that NB nurtures expectations (despite her occasional protestations to the contrary) that he will make a big deal about her birthday, he indeed should make an extra effort to close the loops of communication & make a big deal about her birthday, is probably not going to make much difference, because he's heard it here before. Yes, there's something dismissive in that judgement, but I'm here across an ocean talking about people whose lives I can't really know but imperfectly. I have to make judgement calls regarding whom I can usefully help and whom I can't. Sometimes my judgement will be wrong. That doesn't mean I'm cliquey.

I don't spend a lot of time here, because I don't have a lot to spend. My wife & I both work full-time, and we have to bust our behinds to scratch out our UA time. I managed to do one post per day this past week. Since NB made her plea for attention on August 27, I have spent most of the time trying to get back across the country in the air-travel chaos that is the entire United States after most major airports in the northeast corridor were closed for significant portions of this past weekend. I don't have time to sit on a fence and ponder & question why people post what they choose to post. If I think I can help, I try when time allows, and if I don't, I don't. I hope your curiosity on this point is sated.
NB, what are you doing? Is this how you approach life? Throwing a tantrum and being ugly when people don't jump when you say so? This board has been a life saver for 1000s of people over the years. It's pretty disingenuous of you to come here and make your snide little remarks and accusations after all the help you HAVE received over the years. What's your agenda? This is crap.

Wow. Talk about betrayal.

I hope the mods shut this down.

You owe this board an apology.
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 03:24 AM
ML
"And this poster is different in that she is not even using very basic MB concepts even after 3 years here. That tells me she doesn't take this program serious enough to actually use it. And that is fine, that is her prerogative. But it doesn't mean I have interest in posting here. "

This is truly ridiculous
I am using the mb principals and do take them seriously however there are some things I STILL need guidance for, you can't comment that you don't help or want to help me get things then chastise me because I don't get things. If you want to say something that personal and judgmental about me at least take the time to get your facts straight. How long did it take you to get it? How much help did you need? Did you have anyone chastise you for being slow on the uptake or needing more help? No. Am I sitting here judging you for not spending tons more UA time as you seam to spend a lot of time on here helping others rather than spend it on your own marriage? No I wouldn't dare say anything like this to you because I dont presume how you live your life so please return the favour and don't presume you know what my absorbency levels or seriousness of the mb principals are.

I spent ��� on coaching with Steve to the point that I got myself in debt and rent arrears so I could pay for the sessions, is this something a person does whe they don't take things seriously? I am that desperate for the help if you don't want to help your free to do what you want but don't presume bull like that about me because your getting way to personal with your insults.
We are going to stop the disrespect right now! If you have an issue with other posters, email the moderators and let them handle it. But don't disrupt this forum any more with disrespectful comments against other posters.

This is the last warning. Next time we are locking this thread. Let's get back to marriage building, please!
Posted By: NB28 Re: Recap, update and seeking a way forward - 08/30/11 03:40 AM
**EDIT**

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