Marriage Builders®
I've always wondered why folks stick around here when they do not use (or sometimes even agree with) the MB concepts.

There are many other infidelity forums out there ~ why stick around here and complain? Why not go to a forum that doesn't advocate a PROGRAM to deal with infidelity or improving your marriage?

Why disrespect Dr. Harley and all the work he has done?
Very good questions indeed. laugh
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
I've always wondered why folks stick around here when they do not use (or sometimes even agree with) the MB concepts.

There are many other infidelity forums out there ~ why stick around here and complain? Why not go to a forum that doesn't advocate a PROGRAM to deal with infidelity or improving your marriage?

Why disrespect Dr. Harley and all the work he has done?


:::waving hand wildly::: Ooo, ooo, pick me! Pick me! laugh

I've wondered that, and here's what I came up with: this site appears to have the best, most solid plan for ending and recovering from an A. I think posters go to other sites and realize that there really isn't help there, just commiseration. And while they need some commiseration, what they really need are tools. They just don't know what those tools are.

Then they make it to this site, battered and bleeding, and we tell them what it's going to take to recover themselves and/or their M. Many times they don't like hearing what we have to say. It sounds counter-intuitive. It sounds scary. It makes even the bravest sometimes say "Isn't there another way?" It requires them to completely change the way they think. They want to be coddled in many cases, because they instinctively realize that they are a victim. Some just can't get out of that victim mode.

You know something else? Tom2010 made an interesting point - that more men than women are unwilling to do the work to kill the A. And I think he's right, at least on the threads I've read. Why do you think that is? (Sorry, MF - don't mean to t/j blush )
Interesting question. As this is my fifth year post-d-day, I found myself on your thread and wondering why you asked. I will bite, anyway, and hazard a response. I figure you ask for a reason.

People come here initially because they are in a desparate situation in their marriage. They find this place has a program that has concepts that make sense. While at first some of the ideas that are meant to break up affairs might seem counter-intuitive, the fact is these ideas are things they likely haven't tried - and because these are not in their arsenals and they know their wayward spouses are not expecting these responses, they TRY THEM.

Lo and behold, in many cases they WORK!

And for those who stick with the concepts, for those who really work at the concepts and try to employ them, to understand the nature of the concepts and how they work towards building the marital relationship and bond, the MB program stands a good chance of working, too.

So your question goes to those who come here and end up not liking the program, end up complaining about it, end up not using the concepts, and then going elsewhere instead. Yet, they still kind of hang around here, too?


I would venture that they had some limited success with the parts of the program that they did employ. Maybe there were parts of the MB plans that worked for them, but other parts that did not - perhaps their marriages were too far gone when they got here, or they had a wayward spouse who just was never going to get on board. That happens, and that can leave the betrayed spouse with a sense of failure, and loss. Even with the best program in the world, there will be a percentage of marriages that fail - not for the sake of the BS not trying, but for the reason that the WS has made other choices.

Maybe the BS blames MB for the failure of the program. Maybe the BS blames MB for that, and it isn't the failure of MB, but it could be many reasons: the WS was too far gone, the BS did not employ the program in the manner advised by the Harleys, the WS might have been reluctant to use certain aspects of the MB plan, the WS might have been unresponsive to MB ideas, the WS might have been uncooperative with MB ideas, or just that the relationship was not one that would have been salvageable with or without MB. It happens - and there are probably 1,000 or a million other reasons that could be named.

Ultimately, the poster has made "friends" here. Connections to people on the boards who has sustained him or her through a time in life that is difficult at best, traumatic at least. While they are frustrated with the way the board is run, or with the concepts, or with other posters, the reason they return is perhaps those connections to stories of lives that have touched theirs - in one way or another.

They care about someone here, someone whose story has touched their heart in one way or another. They care about someone who has reached out to them in a time of need.

Coming here has been a mixed blessing. They came in a time of strife, found advice that didn't work for them, but somehow found something else that still attracts them.


And the same thing keeps them going to the "other boards" for help.

They seek answers to the problems of their lives. Even answers that for now they do not appear to agree with. Somehow, someday, those answers might someway meld into the "right" answer - for them.


I, for one, hope that somehow they find it. I hope that whatever they seek, they can find peace wherever it is for them.

Having been through this trauma, I too have searched for that peace. It is often hard to find.

Schoolbus
Originally Posted By: schoolbus
Interesting question. As this is my fifth year post-d-day, I found myself on your thread and wondering why you asked. I will bite, anyway, and hazard a response. I figure you ask for a reason.

People come here initially because they are in a desparate situation in their marriage. They find this place has a program that has concepts that make sense. While at first some of the ideas that are meant to break up affairs might seem counter-intuitive, the fact is these ideas are things they likely haven't tried - and because these are not in their arsenals and they know their wayward spouses are not expecting these responses, they TRY THEM.

Lo and behold, in many cases they WORK!

And for those who stick with the concepts, for those who really work at the concepts and try to employ them, to understand the nature of the concepts and how they work towards building the marital relationship and bond, the MB program stands a good chance of working, too.

So your question goes to those who come here and end up not liking the program, end up complaining about it, end up not using the concepts, and then going elsewhere instead. Yet, they still kind of hang around here, too?


I would venture that they had some limited success with the parts of the program that they did employ. Maybe there were parts of the MB plans that worked for them, but other parts that did not - perhaps their marriages were too far gone when they got here, or they had a wayward spouse who just was never going to get on board. That happens, and that can leave the betrayed spouse with a sense of failure, and loss. Even with the best program in the world, there will be a percentage of marriages that fail - not for the sake of the BS not trying, but for the reason that the WS has made other choices.

Maybe the BS blames MB for the failure of the program. Maybe the BS blames MB for that, and it isn't the failure of MB, but it could be many reasons: the WS was too far gone, the BS did not employ the program in the manner advised by the Harleys, the WS might have been reluctant to use certain aspects of the MB plan, the WS might have been unresponsive to MB ideas, the WS might have been uncooperative with MB ideas, or just that the relationship was not one that would have been salvageable with or without MB. It happens - and there are probably 1,000 or a million other reasons that could be named.

Ultimately, the poster has made "friends" here. Connections to people on the boards who has sustained him or her through a time in life that is difficult at best, traumatic at least. While they are frustrated with the way the board is run, or with the concepts, or with other posters, the reason they return is perhaps those connections to stories of lives that have touched theirs - in one way or another.

They care about someone here, someone whose story has touched their heart in one way or another. They care about someone who has reached out to them in a time of need.

Coming here has been a mixed blessing. They came in a time of strife, found advice that didn't work for them, but somehow found something else that still attracts them.


And the same thing keeps them going to the "other boards" for help.

They seek answers to the problems of their lives. Even answers that for now they do not appear to agree with. Somehow, someday, those answers might someway meld into the "right" answer - for them.


I, for one, hope that somehow they find it. I hope that whatever they seek, they can find peace wherever it is for them.

Having been through this trauma, I too have searched for that peace. It is often hard to find.

Schoolbus


SB well said...just want to add kumbaya.
Quote:
Quote: "When there is nothing else to do, pray."


Interesting quote - I disagree however. Prayer should be the first response not the last resort. JMHO of course.
Originally Posted By: bigkahuna
Quote:
Quote: "When there is nothing else to do, pray."


Interesting quote - I disagree however. Prayer should be the first response not the last resort. JMHO of course.


BK I do agree and just had this conversation with a friend about prayer first. I will be changing my quote.
Quote:

Having been through this trauma, I too have searched for that peace. It is often hard to find.

Schoolbus


I couldn't agree more!!!!!!
Bumping in the hopes of getting more replies...thanks to all who have replied so far. smile
IME, some people are know-it-alls and/or drama queens and/or voyeuristic people who like to see the suffering of others. This forum wouldn't be the first time any of those personalities came out.
Wow, that's a loaded question MB. laugh

My theory is that some are determined to prove Dr. H is wrong because that's the way they roll. Some may object to a "cookie-cutter" solution (the way they see it). Some can't handle the truth. Some want to prove that they're smarter and end up looking foolish. Some have been banned and hold a grudge so they come back under an alias to stir up trouble.

Some are much braver behind a screen and pretend to know what works. Some KNOW the truth and are too proud to admit it. Some are envious of people who have recovered. Some are members of TOW. Some are just plain ole trolls. Some are selfish and refuse to acknowledge that there just might be something to MB principles.

How's that for a bunch of assumptions and DJ's? rotflmao
Thanks CWMI, one of my theories of why these folks stick around is similar to yours...misery loves company and by golly, if my marriage failed because I didn't properly follow MB then I'm going to stick around and find others who are in the same situation!
Originally Posted By: princessmeggy
Wow, that's a loaded question MB. laugh

My theory is that some are determined to prove Dr. H is wrong because that's the way they roll. Some may object to a "cookie-cutter" solution (the way they see it). Some can't handle the truth. Some want to prove that they're smarter and end up looking foolish. Some have been banned and hold a grudge so they come back under an alias to stir up trouble.

Some are much braver behind a screen and pretend to know what works. Some KNOW the truth and are too proud to admit it. Some are envious of people who have recovered. Some are members of TOW. Some are just plain ole trolls. Some are selfish and refuse to acknowledge that there just might be something to MB principles.

How's that for a bunch of assumptions and DJ's? rotflmao


ITA.
Originally Posted By: princessmeggy
Wow, that's a loaded question MB. laugh

My theory is that some are determined to prove Dr. H is wrong


At Dr. Harley's expense, no less. He does pay for this site, after all. I consider it the height of rudeness to expect him to continue to pay for people to misuse this website. (The intent of the website is to learn the Marriage Builders program.)

Of course, these folks often actually claim they understand Marriage Builders, and it's just certain "personalities" (let's be honest and not beat around the bush: it's MelodyLane, the Wonderings, princessmeggy, Mark1952, and many others, including I hope myself and Prisca) and their own "interpretations" of Marriage Builders, when actually these "personalities" are the only ones accurately presenting the program. But in their minds, the personalities are misrepresenting the program and need to be corrected, even though Dr. Harley makes it clear over and over again what his positions are, and through the management of this site has made it clear by electing to have such troublemakers banned.

It's so abundantly clear that anti-Marriage Builders attitudes aren't going to be tolerated here, but it doesn't stop them.

My favorite idea is the idea that Marriage Builders does not teach that being in love is the point of Marriage Builders. I listened to Joyce Harley say, nearly word for word, "The whole point of Marriage Builders is for you and your spouse to be in love, for a lifetime" on a radio program the other day (I think it was something like the August 30th show; I need to look it up so I can post a link) and thought about that.

But even that won't stop some folks who I am sure will continue to try to prove that Joyce Harley misunderstands the program she and her husband run. Sigh.
Originally Posted By: princessmeggy
Wow, that's a loaded question MB. laugh

My theory is that some are determined to prove Dr. H is wrong because that's the way they roll. Some may object to a "cookie-cutter" solution (the way they see it). Some can't handle the truth. Some want to prove that they're smarter and end up looking foolish. Some have been banned and hold a grudge so they come back under an alias to stir up trouble.

Some are much braver behind a screen and pretend to know what works. Some KNOW the truth and are too proud to admit it. Some are envious of people who have recovered. Some are members of TOW. Some are just plain ole trolls. Some are selfish and refuse to acknowledge that there just might be something to MB principles.

How's that for a bunch of assumptions and DJ's? rotflmao


And what really bugs me is that anybody who thinks they know better can go start their own website if they want. But they resent the fact that this used to be a free-for-all exchange of ideas on marriage where every perspective was equal, they want a community like that, and they feel entitled to the community here. They want to use the community that Dr. Harley built at his expense, rather than doing the hard work of building their own.

They want to get their way at somebody else's expense.

Hmm, as I remember, that's a recipe for a bad marriage. Interesting coincidence.
Thanks for the post, markos...I think I agree with you. wink
Almost all of the regular commentators on my threads for the first year and a half I was here are now, um, released from the board. I would like to give a shout to those who actually understand MB to please NOT give up on newbies; you leave them with people who don't employ the program or even understand it, and they end up like me, floundering for a very long time until they speak with the actual source of the material.

My marriage now is better than ever.

Before SH, I got very poor advice. Not all of it poor, but a very large percentage of it went all against my understanding of MB. It's very confusing to those trying to grasp and implement.
MB saved MY marriage...


I've seen it save others as well.

I know it can work when both H & W are doing it.

Mark
MF, I know you don't want to call anyone out, but I have to wonder if the 'folks' you are curious about either didn't recover their marriages and/or live in marriages that aren't on the road to recovery, but floundering about.

I use MB in my relationship. It works.

It did not save my marriage, but that's not because Dr. Harley's program is flawed, it's because only ONE of us, in my marriage, was following the program...not cherry picking what we were comfortable with.

I agree with SB in that many people connect with others here and this becomes a place for them to go. I also think that anger possibly exists for those who didn't recover their marriages, and it's easy to point the finger at the program instead of taking personal responsibility.
Thanks (again) to all of you who've responded.

I wish that people who the thread title addresses would answer. That would be interesting.

CWMI ~ I am sorry that you were initially led astray but am very happy for you that you managed to finally get some true MB advice.

I am one whose M was saved and is definitely thriving thanks to MB and I cannot understand why people would stick around here and not use the program. Completely off my radar.

MB rocks and I thank God every day for this program.
Quote:
MF, I know you don't want to call anyone out, but I have to wonder if the 'folks' you are curious about either didn't recover their marriages and/or live in marriages that aren't on the road to recovery, but floundering about.


SL, you bring up a great point ~ here is one of my theories on this:

Before MB we thought we had a good M ~ and we did. It wasn't perfect but it was a "good" M. We never even so much as joked about D. We were the envy of many of our friends.

It wasn't until we got into "real" recovery that we realized we had some work to do ~ and we began to see how much better our M could be.

Now we are LIVING this better marriage. I've often wondered if those you have not used the MB program, yet claim to have "good marriages" or "recovered marriages" can even fathom what they are missing by NOT using the MB basic concepts.

Ignorance is not always bliss, in other words.
Originally Posted By: MF
Before MB we thought we had a good M ~ and we did.


Ah, yes, the Z and I did, too. We were one of those couples people thought were just great together. MB taught me a lot about what we were doing OH SO WRONG. Lots of IB's, lots of time apart, lots of holding back on problems to avoid conflict (lack of O&H). Oy! sigh

I can only say that I have incorporated MB in to my life and ALL of my relationships are better because of it.
Quote:
Lots of IB's


We had this too ~ and we both had some resentment but didn't understand WHY. Afterall, society told us that it was GOOD to have our "own interests" and do things with others and it was ok that our spouse wasn't there...OUCH.

It's amazing to be in a relationship withOUT resentment!

SL ~ is your SO familiar with MB?
Originally Posted By: MF
SL ~ is your SO familiar with MB?


He is AWARE and I have talked openly with him about the policies and about boundaries. I have not asked him to read any of the literature. We have had a lot of time over the last year to talk talk talk talk due to our long distance relationship. Talked a great deal about the affair, the devastation, my attempts to recover and MB.

We have also had our share of conflict, about our kids and about boundaries. We have resolved them by being O&H and POJA.
We are still working at POJA. I still have work to do but I'm not afraid of asking for what I need.
Sounds great SL, I am so happy for you!
I most certainly agree that since the MB forums are an extension of the MarriageBuilders program (and they're offered to us for FREE, at that!), AND since Dr. Harley pays for the bandwidth, the discussions should most certainly be about how to use the MB programs.

Another thing is the fact that newbies come here looking for MARRIAGEBUILDERS help; otherwise, I assume they would be asking for help on some other forum. Throwing in a bunch of other ideas and opinions can be very confusing to a newbie and distract them from doing the things they need to do in order to save/rebuild their marriages.

Until the board tightened up on the monitoring of the board, it seemed like way too many of the threads were hi-jacked by folks who wanted to point fingers and tell others HOW to post. It really got tiring to have to wade through umpteen posts of people saying, "You're mean!"...blah, blah, blah. These folks mostly seemed to think that we should all be posting a bunch of incoherent psychobabble garbage. Well, excuse me, but I do not have time to sit around posting the same inane crud multiple times in one post, using different flowery sentences.

I can't say that my marriage is a success story, because my WH has never gotten on board; however, it is way better than it used to be, and I credit MB with that. I was able to change many of my own bad behaviors that I previously had not recognized before finding MB. I am still a work in progress!
Like I said, 1,000 reasons could be named.

For me, I searched the Internet on d-day for help. I searched and found any number of sites.

I came here. I also went to other sites.

I came back here. And back again, and again and again....and you know, I have looked at the other sites maybe three or four times since d-day. Just to see if they have changed anything, offered anything new, or even LEARNED ANYTHING they could teach me.

Hasn't happened. At least not yet.

I come here because I always seem to be able to pick up a new idea here.

I come here because I feel like I can help here.


And I have to say that without Marriage Builders, I honestly believe I would have left my marriage at about the six-month mark, or soon thereafter. I believe this because I would have had no idea that the anger and frustration I felt and the rollercoaster of emotions I was going through was normal. I would have thought that I should have been

OVER IT

by then.


And my idea would have been that since my H had cancer I should be able to put the past behind me, forgive him, and MOVE ON.


But I was still pretty messed up at the six month mark, and still learning at the nine-month mark, and still learning at the one year d-day mark.



And now, approaching the five-year d-day anniversary?


I can say that my marriage is NOT perfect. I can say that every day I come home to a man who IS IN LOVE WITH ME, and I AM IN LOVE WITH HIM.

And every day we look forward to being together. There is only one reason for this.

MARRIAGE BUILDERS.


If I win the lottery, I might just send Dr. Harley a love offering.


Schoolbus
MB helped ME to fight the affair.......

MB helped ME to regain my footing when the ground had been removed.....

MB helped US to begin Recovery......

MB continues to give us the tools to NOT return from where we came......

Nuff' said.....

Not
I think another aspect of those who do not use marriage builders concepts, is that when the search is done to find answers as to why your marriage and most of your life is crumbling in front of you - that search is being done by someone in shock, disbelief, and is now so broken and lost. Its hard to take all the information in at once and process it.

I know I was reading threads, articles and SAA; all the while watching my marriage go up in flames. I listened to the advice from everyone and counseled with SH. The alien wasn't cooperating - I also truly believed in the beginning that if I did everything that everyone was telling me to do that it would magically R the marriage and end the A.

It wasn't until I went to plan B (poor one in the beginning, becoming better with time) and was able to put some space between myself and the A; that I was able to think more rationally. I still had a few "oops, probably shouldn't have done/said/texted/emailed that". But I am only human.

But again, I really believed that plan A and B would end the A and R the marriage. I now understand the concepts a little better. I certainly did not expect the D to drag on as long as it has. So to return to the original statement. I don't think the lost and broken can comprehend everything and cannot imagine the long time line that this can encompass.

I now feel as though I am in a place of personal recovery. I can't predict the future? Maybe my plan A did work, and maybe my plan B is working. I don't know, I certainly don't know what is going on in A-land. Only snippets of information that I know I shouldn't be listening to. Maybe down the road the A will end, the alien will vacate and WH will come begging for my forgiveness? Again, I can't predict the future and can only take one day at a time. Those things may never happen either and if they do, maybe I will be in a different place and not wish to R the marriage.

The point I have been babbling to make is this, It has taken me 9 and 1/2 months to figure that out and get to this point. Now I just want some peace. In the current society of easy come - easy go - disposable - and - instant gratification. Many of the broken and lost do not know how or maybe not interested in investing the time and effort MB concepts take.

JMHO
Missy, I gotta say that you are sounding soooooo GREAT these days! No matter if your WH pulls his head out of his backside or not, YOU are benefitting from the MB program. You are one plucky lady, and I'm proud of you!
Originally Posted By: Mark1952
MB saved MY marriage...


I've seen it save others as well.

I know it can work when both H & W are doing it.

Mark


I came to the MB a little late with D day. Tried other sites and was thrown at the beginning.

MB did not recover my M to date...but MB saved me.

I have learned, I have grown, have been hit by 2x4s and not always agreed or accepted.

I am not perfect, I have stumbled and fallen, I have been my own worst enemy. MB is a good program and when you come here there is always hope.
Originally Posted By: markos
And what really bugs me is that anybody who thinks they know better can go start their own website if they want. But they resent the fact that this used to be a free-for-all exchange of ideas on marriage where every perspective was equal, they want a community like that, and they feel entitled to the community here. They want to use the community that Dr. Harley built at his expense, rather than doing the hard work of building their own.

They want to get their way at somebody else's expense.

Hmm, as I remember, that's a recipe for a bad marriage. Interesting coincidence.


I heard a quote that reminds me a lot of what I learned here at MB. "I don't have to be right not to like something." I fully believe in the MB program. But I think the Basic Concepts are universal ideas that are also explained in other sources, and if I can quote something that helps a person hear what they are looking to hear in a way that they can hear it, then I think it's great, too. Most of the stuff I want to quote is right here, but it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing. Dr. H makes references to other sources, like in the articles about an alcoholic spouse, suggesting Alanon as an option, and giving the name of a book on female sexuality in the HNHN chapter on SF. There is an amazing amount of information given here free, but it can in no way be all-encompassing. If folks use the Dave Ramsey materials, for example, to find POJA on FS, I fail to see the harm in that.

Also, in the When to Call It Quits newsletters, Dr. H doesn't say that there's anything wrong with the folks who settle for less than a fully recovered loving marriage. He discusses all the options respectfully. In the newsletter to men, he even validates why men would stay in a sexless marriage, because they don't want to lose custody of the kids.

I suspect that you and I markos, disagree on a whole lot less than we agree on. Just that post rubbed me the wrong way. Lots of times we don't like something, doesn't make the other person wrong.
Quote:

MB did not recover my M to date...but MB saved me.

I have learned, I have grown, have been hit by 2x4s and not always agreed or accepted.

I am not perfect, I have stumbled and fallen, I have been my own worst enemy. MB is a good program and when you come here there is always hope.


Amen Sista

I totally agree, MB may have not recovered my marriage to date, but MB saved me. Most important the MB community saved me; I can't imagine living in the pile of crap and deceit if I had not done a pln A/B. I am in a better place every day because of this community and the principles its based on.
I know for me, I have gotten in the habit of honestly throwing out whatever is on my mind or breaking my heart on here. And because I have not yet attained perfection smile that means sometimes I actually voice the questions I have. That doesn't mean I do not believe MB is the best there is. It just means that my humanness sometimes makes me...discouraged on the journey. I know people are different. Some people are very good at - once they decide something - never feeling a moment's weakness or fear or anything else. I'm not there yet. Sometimes, I admit, I have a fear that I will never never be able to "do it well enough" or that even if I do, it won't "fix" things. This is just me being honest. I never worried about it too much because I figured I wasn't the only one who occasionally stumbled. So for me, if my posts sound hurt, it's because I am hurting. If my posts sound frustrated, it's because I am. I just wasn't wired to be robotic about things, if that makes sense.

In my mind, when I am afraid to ask questions about something, it makes me wonder just how much I can trust it. For example, I believe the Bible. Period. So when I am confused or worried or weak, I am not afraid to ask questions because I know the Bible can stand up to my human scrutiny. It's not that I have suddenly decided none of it is true. I just need help, direction, or maybe a reminder. I do the same thing with MB. When DH and I have just had some great AU time, had recent SF, and I cleaned the house and lost five pounds last week, it's easy to be really strong. But when it's been three months since SF, DH has been in a snappy and distant mood, and I decided to comfort myself with half a bag of cookies....yeah, I'll admit to finding it a little harder to hold out hope.

Some people do probably just come here to whine. And some people - I am convinced - come here to fight. But I know for me, my questions are actual questions, and I would hate to think that anyone would just write me off because I didn't figure it all out fast enough or because when the valley gets long, I sometimes forget how to get out.
NED, yes Dr Harley makes references to other complementary sources, such as Alanon and AA, but he does not endorse other marriage programs. And he does not endorse the vast majority of them because they don't know how to achieve romantic love and don't have any idea how to save marriages. Most don't even believe romantic love is possible.

Here is how he describes other therapists in one of his newsletters:
Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
I give you this advice because I want you and your spouse to be in love with each other, and I'm sure that you want that, too. But most marital therapists disagree with me on this issue. Because their advice is so pervasive, and so destructive to the love of couples that follow it, I use whatever opportunity I have to defend this crucial position.
here

Do you really think he wants such other positions promoted to newcomers who come to Marriage Builders for help? crazy

Why should he provide a forum where newcomers are referred to programs he does not endorse? His forum is provided for the purpose of giving away - for FREE - the Marriage Builders program.

I think its good to discuss various programs/books but not when it comes at the expense of a desperate newcomer. When a newcomer arrives, they are coming here to learn about Marriage Builders; not about every dog and cat marriage program. That is confusing and only serves to muddy the waters. So I differentiate between a thread that discusses different marriage books and a thread that discusses other marriage programs to a desperate newcomer who came to MARRIAGE BUILDERS for help. The former is informative and productive, the latter is destructive.

It boggles my mind that people would be so adamant about promoting anything BUT Marriage Builders on Marriage Builders. There are lots of places on the internet where you can do that. It doesn't have to be done on Dr Harley's dime.

Quote:
Also, in the When to Call It Quits newsletters, Dr. H doesn't say that there's anything wrong with the folks who settle for less than a fully recovered loving marriage. He discusses all the options respectfully. In the newsletter to men, he even validates why men would stay in a sexless marriage, because they don't want to lose custody of the kids.


Surely, you understand it is not the goal of Marriage Builders to have a bad marriage, right? In that newsletter, Dr Harley understands that sometimes there are no good options and that staying in a bad marriage for the children might be the best of bad options. But that doesn't mean Dr Harley is endorsing bad marriages.

My gosh, Marriage Builders saved my marriage. Is it too much to hope that others get the same thing? I passionately want others to get what I have in my marriage so I get a little frustrated when I see folks trying to stand in the way.
i guess i am wondering WHEN this changed?? i remember back in the day we discussed everything....along with mb's we talked about 5 love languages and many other resources....having those discussions never took away from helping people on here.

i get why the harleys want to promote only mb's....i have no problem with that, i get it. what i dont understand is when it changed and did i miss a posting somewhere that it was no longer allowed to discuss these other sources?
Originally Posted By: nikko
i guess i am wondering WHEN this changed?? i remember back in the day we discussed everything....along with mb's we talked about 5 love languages and many other resources....having those discussions never took away from helping people on here.


BUT.... it does take away when someone promotes such a book to a newcomer who is here to learn about Marriage Builders. It muddies the waters because they are entirely different programs. [even though Chapman uses the term "Love Tank" - gee, wonder where he got that?? grin]
People who come here are pretty desperate and in pain. They need a plan. Other affair/marriage sites have no plan.
If the plan or advice given here does not satisfy the BS (or WS) then they are free to google other programs on their own.
But hearing all sorts of different approaches on a thread can be too much for someone who is going thru the devastation of an A and the possible end of a M...
blessing
I do think it is very important for the comments to be consistent. Four years ago when I came as a WW, I was worried about telling my DH and about telling him who the OM was. Almost everyone said in no uncertain terms that yes, I had to do both NOW. But there were a couple of posts that said maybe not. guess which ones I grabbed onto. Now, it was MY fault I didn't immediately do what was right, but I think it illustrates how there are some principles that should be non-negotiable. For example, I love when a wayward comes here and won't answer certain questions, and people like Mel and SuzieQ just keep asking and asking and asking......Like, "No, bud,you're not dodging that one!" smile Tough love
Originally Posted By: lurioosi2
For example, I love when a wayward comes here and won't answer certain questions, and people like Mel and SuzieQ just keep asking and asking and asking......Like, "No, bud,you're not dodging that one!" smile Tough love


grin We are so meeeeeeeeeeeeeeean! dramaqueen

One that used to drive me CRAAAZY was when we finally persuaded some newcomer to expose the affair and some "sage" would pipe up and tell him to not to! The scared BS would usually grab onto the advice not to expose, at his own expense. It was so frustrating!! All it achieved was putting off the inevitable by causing frustration.
Quote:
i guess i am wondering WHEN this changed?? i remember back in the day we discussed everything....along with mb's we talked about 5 love languages and many other resources....having those discussions never took away from helping people on here.


[Emphasis mine]

I suppose that would be a matter of opinion...so far we've had a number of people post on this thread that they WERE given alternative advice and it was NOT helpful, in fact it was confusing and stalled them in their recovery (it sounds like to me).

I've read many, many other books on marriage ~ 5 Love Languages, Boundaries in Marriage and many more, ad nauseum. I have recommended these books to others as a SUPPLEMENT to the MB program, NOT as a substitute.

And I certainly wouldn't recommend alternatives to someone who is still in the trenches of marital recovery. Since we're here at MB, the MB program really needs to be understood and mastered first ~ anything else is supplementary.
I stick around for the scones, Aqua Net, memories of one of my fave childhood cartoons **wonder twin powers activate**, and some other things that make smile. smile

I don't agree with 100% of everything MB but I think it is a solid program and offers much to improve a marriage, with or without infidelity, as well as personal improvement.
scones???? I got NO scones!

I think it's because scones have carbs, and after you eliminate LB's you are supposed to eliminate carbs...hahahahahahaha!
Quote:
But I think the Basic Concepts are universal ideas that are also explained in other sources, and if I can quote something that helps a person hear what they are looking to hear in a way that they can hear it, then I think it's great, too. Most of the stuff I want to quote is right here, but it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing.
Of course not. And visitors to this site should certainly check out other sites in their search for help.

Dr. H makes references to other sources, like in the articles about an alcoholic spouse, suggesting Alanon as an option, and giving the name of a book on female sexuality in the HNHN chapter on SF.
I suspect that's because the good doctor knows his limitations and knows that alcoholism requires different handling, as does female sexuality. He's in the business of Marriage Building, not an AA counselor.

There is an amazing amount of information given here free, but it can in no way be all-encompassing. If folks use the Dave Ramsey materials, for example, to find POJA on FS, I fail to see the harm in that.
Of course not! If it helps save their M and make it better, that's great! And I suspect those websites are fairly easy to find, yes?

Posters show up here, stunned and looking for answers. To bombard them with "this website tells you how to save a M" vs. "that website also tells you to save a M" vs. "you-could-always-try-this-approach to save a M" is muddying the waters to an alarming degree.

And that doesn't even speak to the two main issues, here:
First of all, it's breathtakingly disrespectful for a poster to come on here and start explaining The Way to save a M, based on some author/psychologist other than the owner of this website. These posters are not in the business of saving marriages and have no experience doing so.

Second, the approach Dr. H takes is specific and successful. It is more than presumptuous for anyone to enter his website and start explaining how his approach is "wrong". Sure, it's not going to save every M. Some M's never should have happened, some have been neglected so long that there's no breathing any life into them. No program is 100% successful. But Dr. H's approach works for so many that it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info.



Originally Posted By: lurioosi2
scones???? I got NO scones!

I think it's because scones have carbs, and after you eliminate LB's you are supposed to eliminate carbs...hahahahahahaha!


Scones and teas even. Maybe I hogged them all for my comfort food stash. Carbs........mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. HA!
Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
[ But Dr. H's approach works for so many that it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info.


I agree 100%, MaritalBliss. And if someone wants to recommend various programs to newcomers, there is nothing stopping them from starting their own website. They can do that on their dime, rather than Dr Harley's.
Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
Quote:

Posters show up here, stunned and looking for answers. To bombard them with "this website tells you how to save a M" vs. "that website also tells you to save a M" vs. "you-could-always-try-this-approach to save a M" is muddying the waters to an alarming degree.
[/color]


This is talking from my experience. When i had my DDay about three years ago i went onto the internet. Typed in husband had affair into yahoo search. Then into google search and guess what each and everytime i searched and searched..... This was ALWAYS the top website. Obviously the most hits and even tauted on other websites as one of the "best programs" out there for this type of marital issue. Other sites i am referring to was babycenter.com and yahoo answers as i was posting there since i had just had a daughter. The women there referred me her above all else first. You don't get to be number one in a field by not having results.
Originally Posted By: MF
I've read many, many other books on marriage ~ 5 Love Languages, Boundaries in Marriage and many more, ad nauseum. I have recommended these books to others as a SUPPLEMENT to the MB program, NOT as a substitute.


I have read many other books on marriage, countless articles and webpages. I come back to MB, even today, after divorce, to continue learning a program that has helped me become a better me.

Before I found MB, I tried another site, bought materials and tried to use them to draw WxH back in. What a miserable failure that was. It was another year before I found MB. The vast amount of FREE information helped me to begin the path that has kept me sane and made me stronger during this entire process, with no small thanks going to the folks who posted to me here, taking their time to swat me upside the head and get me back on the path to recovery, personal or marital.

I will always be grateful and believe in the program
I shudder to think about the websites I went to that said it was wrong to ask about details of the A. What if I had listened to those sites - I'd be in the loony bin right now. crazy

Hearing the details was crucial to my healing!

Equally bad thought: imagine the betrayeds who read those sites and stop there. frown
Originally Posted By: maritalbliss


Equally bad thought: imagine the betrayeds who read those sites and stop there. frown


Another bad thought: they come to Marriage Builders and read the same bad marriage advice... That was prevalent for the first few years I was on this forum. It was confusion central!
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
[ But Dr. H's approach works for so many that it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info.


I agree 100%, MaritalBliss. And if someone wants to recommend various programs to newcomers, there is nothing stopping them from starting their own website. They can do that on their dime, rather than Dr Harley's.


It's also clear that people who disagree with or want to question Marriage Builders are welcome to do so even on this site. They are just not welcome to go confuse people who came here to check out and learn the Marriage Builders program.

In other words, post your objections on their own thread, don't go interrupt someone else and share your objections to the program with them. (And cut the crap about how you agree with the program, you just disagree with "some people's" "interpretations.")

There's is no excuse on this website for anyone to try to dissuade someone else from following the program exactly.
Originally Posted By: nikko
i guess i am wondering WHEN this changed?? i remember back in the day we discussed everything....along with mb's we talked about 5 love languages and many other resources....having those discussions never took away from helping people on here.

i get why the harleys want to promote only mb's....i have no problem with that, i get it. what i dont understand is when it changed and did i miss a posting somewhere that it was no longer allowed to discuss these other sources?


I'm told that it changed when Dr. Harley started managing the board more actively and took a hand in selecting a moderation staff that would enforce the rule you now see posted above:

please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders® concepts.

I'm guessing there was probably a day when that was not posted.

Anyway, it seems to me nobody ever gets in trouble for comparing and contrasting Marriage Builders to their own ideas and objections, or to other programs, ON THEIR OWN THREAD. I could be wrong.
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Almost all of the regular commentators on my threads for the first year and a half I was here are now, um, released from the board. I would like to give a shout to those who actually understand MB to please NOT give up on newbies; you leave them with people who don't employ the program or even understand it, and they end up like me, floundering for a very long time until they speak with the actual source of the material.

My marriage now is better than ever.

Before SH, I got very poor advice. Not all of it poor, but a very large percentage of it went all against my understanding of MB. It's very confusing to those trying to grasp and implement.



When Prisca and I got married I was aware of Marriage Builders. We tried and failed to learn the program from the books. Our marriage got worse and worse, and Marriage Builders had given us high expectations.

I looked in on this forum from time to time through the years and was disappointed because it was just people discussion random marital advice and other books, not the Marriage Builders program. So I never joined until this year.

Some people would rather this be their personal playground than let its owner use it to promulgate his program to people who want to learn it. I am glad this has changed. This has been the best year our marriage has seen in a LONG time.
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
Originally Posted By: markos
And what really bugs me is that anybody who thinks they know better can go start their own website if they want. But they resent the fact that this used to be a free-for-all exchange of ideas on marriage where every perspective was equal, they want a community like that, and they feel entitled to the community here. They want to use the community that Dr. Harley built at his expense, rather than doing the hard work of building their own.

They want to get their way at somebody else's expense.

Hmm, as I remember, that's a recipe for a bad marriage. Interesting coincidence.


I heard a quote that reminds me a lot of what I learned here at MB. "I don't have to be right not to like something." I fully believe in the MB program. But I think the Basic Concepts are universal ideas that are also explained in other sources, and if I can quote something that helps a person hear what they are looking to hear in a way that they can hear it, then I think it's great, too. Most of the stuff I want to quote is right here, but it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing. Dr. H makes references to other sources, like in the articles about an alcoholic spouse, suggesting Alanon as an option, and giving the name of a book on female sexuality in the HNHN chapter on SF. There is an amazing amount of information given here free, but it can in no way be all-encompassing. If folks use the Dave Ramsey materials, for example, to find POJA on FS, I fail to see the harm in that.

Also, in the When to Call It Quits newsletters, Dr. H doesn't say that there's anything wrong with the folks who settle for less than a fully recovered loving marriage. He discusses all the options respectfully. In the newsletter to men, he even validates why men would stay in a sexless marriage, because they don't want to lose custody of the kids.

I suspect that you and I markos, disagree on a whole lot less than we agree on. Just that post rubbed me the wrong way. Lots of times we don't like something, doesn't make the other person wrong.


From your post, I don't understand what you are saying that we disagree on. I must be misunderstanding what you are saying, because I don't understand how what you said relates to my post which you quoted.

Do you resent the fact that the board has changed? If not, then my post wasn't about you.
Schoolbus I totally agree! Well said! I also agree with CW! I've seen a lot of that lately on this board but just from like 1% of the people! Overall its an awesome forum!
I've not read anything from anyone on this thread who disagrees that MB program is not a good one.
I also agree that the program can get a M back on track.
The philosophies and tools did just that for my M.

I agree with the fact that when distraught newbies come, it can be confusing to discuss other programs and a different philosophy for busting up an A.
That would be very confusing to reference the articles here and then advise different.
The exception would be if a poster is counseling with the Harley team.
What I mean by this is that the Harley's/coaches know the finer details of a situation (details that are not published on a public forum) and tailor the plan accordingly.

NewEveryDay was not referring to throwing different sources at newbies, from what I can tell and I reread her post. I didn't get that from Nikko's post either.
She was talking about discussing other programs as a supplement (as MF said) to the MB program, in a general discussion manner.

Discussion on these different POV's is a good thing, IMO.
There are many aspects of MB that simply cannot be argued to be wrong,
and if allowed to be discussed, this would only validate those tools and the common sense that they are based on.
There is no allowance here for thoughts that are outside of MB, whether they are positive or negative to a M.
Such thoughts are quickly edited posters seem to vanish. I see this and it makes me sad.

Mel, I didn't in anyway get the impression that NED was saying that Dr. Harley endorsed bad M's.
My take was that Dr. Harley realizes that sometimes the goal in a M is to get that spouse involved in a particular situation,
to a good enough place that they are content with living that way within the M. If this means that other resources can
get them there, he is not so rigid to exclude that support.

The post by Marcos that NED referred to as rubbing her the wrong way, it did me too.
According to Marcos's view, my M is bad, as we do not have the perfect MB M.
We do the best that we can to follow the philosophy and we use the tools as best as we can. We ARE doing good, our M is in a good place, from our POV.

According to Marcos's view, I disrespect Dr. Harley's plan since I find interest in other POV on M.
I actually find it fascinating to hear what other's think. It helps me to broaden my
perspective, to not be so tunnel visioned that my thoughts are what another person's should be, and if they differ then they are simply wrong.

Thank you for this thread though MF, it reminds me of the reason that I post less and less on this forum.
I feel posting here is literally like walking on eggshells.

This is likely the longest post I have ever done, I guess I had a lot of thinking to get out there.
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
The post by Marcos that NED referred to as rubbing her the wrong way, it did me too.
According to Marcos's view, my M is bad, as we do not have the perfect MB M.


I am confused. My post was about people who resent the fact that the board has changed. Do you resent that? If not, then my post is not even about you, so I don't understand why you felt it applied to you and it rubbed you the wrong way. If you do resent it, maybe we can all talk together about what is causing that resentment.

Quote:
According to Marcos's view, I disrespect Dr. Harley's plan since I find interest in other POV on M.


That is not what I said at all. It bothers me when people try to talk about things I've said but didn't look at it closely. I don't always communicate perfectly, but I do try to be very precise and say what I mean. You didn't even look close enough to get the spelling of my name right, and you are misunderstanding what I said. If you look at it again and closer and still think this is what I said, then I'd be happy to talk with you about it and try to clear up the misunderstanding.
Originally Posted By: markos
You didn't even look close enough to get the spelling of my name right, and you are misunderstanding what I said.


Maybe you were mistaken for Imelda.

tl
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Discussion on these different POV's is a good thing, IMO.


I don't know if I agree with that. First off, the board is for discussion of DR HARLEY's POV. All of our POV's led to a screwed up marriage. I didn't come here to hear someone's POV, I came here to hear Dr Harley's POV. We don't know how to save marriages, after all.

And if you do, I would suggest you write a book and set up a forum. Because I sure don't know how to save a marriage. I only know how to screw one up.


Quote:

There are many aspects of MB that simply cannot be argued to be wrong,
and if allowed to be discussed, this would only validate those tools and the common sense that they are based on.
There is no allowance here for thoughts that are outside of MB, whether they are positive or negative to a M.
Such thoughts are quickly edited posters seem to vanish. I see this and it makes me sad.


I disgree there is no allowance for thoughts outside of MB; it happens all the time. What is not being tolerated is such discussions on the threads of newcomers or those who are seeking help with their marriage. That is destructive and disruptive. IT is disrespectful to the board owners. IT should have never been allowed in the first place.

Folks who want to talk about other resources to newcomers are free to set up their own forum to do exactly that. But they shouldn't expect to come to Dr Harley's board and confuse newcomers with other resources that he doesn't endorse. The purpose of this board is Marriage Builders.

I can't imagine I would have an entitlement to go to the Weight Watchers forum and preach Atkins. It is just astonishing to me that anyone would believe they should be permitted to do the same here. crazy
Quote:
It helps me to broaden my perspective, to not be so tunnel visioned that my thoughts are what another person's should be, and if they differ then they are simply wrong.


Holy cow Vittoria ~ you sure got some things out of these posts that I just don't see.

Nobody said that another person's view is WRONG ~ only that it is disrespectful to Dr. Harley AND confusing to newbies for posters to be giving (often contradictory) advice on affairs/marriage recovery, etc.

You will often see other marriage books recommended here ~ and that is certainly welcome. It's when other plans/books etc. outweigh MB advice that it becomes a problem. Re-read CWMI's post, that is a perfect example.

Quote:
Thank you for this thread though MF, it reminds me of the reason that I post less and less on this forum.
I feel posting here is literally like walking on eggshells.

You're welcome and it's too bad you won't stick around and post about Marriage Builders with us ~ we have lots of great discussions about the concepts and how important they are!
Quote:
Folks who want to talk about other resources to newcomers are free to set up their own forum to do exactly that. But they shouldn't expect to come to Dr Harley's board and confuse newcomers with other resources that he doesn't endorse. The purpose of this board is Marriage Builders.


Absolutely.

Quote:
I can't imagine I would have an entitlement to go to the Weight Watchers forum and preach Atkins. It is just astonishing to me that anyone would believe they should be permitted to do the same here. crazy


This made me LOL! Good analogy ML, I completely agree.
Originally Posted By: Vittoria

I agree with the fact that when distraught newbies come, it can be confusing to discuss other programs and a different philosophy for busting up an A.
That would be very confusing to reference the articles here and then advise different.
The exception would be if a poster is counseling with the Harley team.
What I mean by this is that the Harley's/coaches know the finer details of a situation (details that are not published on a public forum) and tailor the plan accordingly.


Vittoria, this is all I am saying. I have never seen a problem discussing other marriage books/programs. I think it is good to discuss the ins and outs of all of them. In that aspect, I think POV's are certainly valuable. It is just when someone substitutes their own opinion for Dr Harley's when trying to help a newcomer that the problem comes in.

I get my back up when someone is in a struggling marriage and someone refers them to something else. It makes it hard for those of us who are trying to help because the focus shifts from getting them the help they need.
A good example of this would be when someone suggests the "180 Plan" instead of a pure Plan A or B.
Originally Posted By: princessmeggy
A good example of this would be when someone suggests the "180 Plan" instead of a pure Plan A or B.


Agree. I had my hands slapped - deservedly - by Mimi years ago for telling a newcomer about the 180. But when I arrived here, the 180 was more discussed than Marriage Builders. It was all about everyone's "opinion" and rarely about Marriage Builders.
Originally Posted By: Vittoria
According to Marcos's view, I disrespect Dr. Harley's plan since I find interest in other POV on M.
I actually find it fascinating to hear what other's think. It helps me to broaden my
perspective, to not be so tunnel visioned that my thoughts are what another person's should be, and if they differ then they are simply wrong.


For the record, Markos is interested in other POV, too. He has bought and read more books on marriage and relationships than I can count. We know each others' "Love Language," too.

But this is MARRIAGE BUILDERS. I came here to learn MARRIAGE BUILDERS, and to get support that would encourage me to follow MARRIAGE BUILDERS. It can be quite frustrating and confusing for a newbie to come here with that goal, only to have opposing philosophies thrown at you. It was quite frustrating, indeed, to feel that I, as a newbie, knew more about the basics of Marriage Builders than some of the posters who have been around for years.

The Five Love Languages, while nice, didn't save our marriage. Marriage Builders did.
Originally Posted By: Prisca

The Five Love Languages, while nice, didn't save our marriage. Marriage Builders did.


It's a great little book, but it's not a plan. I know a couple who read this and said it made their marriage great! We were having trouble and they recommended it to us. We were already reading it, but it didn't have the PLAN we needed. This other couple suggested that if we (well, me) LET GO a bit and get more of a separate life from my H, we could have a great marriage like theirs, too!

Yeah, they're divorced now. The wife was having an affair on all her "ME" time.

ETA: that's in IRL couple, not one from the board. Just to clarify!
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: Prisca

The Five Love Languages, while nice, didn't save our marriage. Marriage Builders did.


It's a great little book, but it's not a plan. I know a couple who read this and said it made their marriage great! We were having trouble and they recommended it to us. We were already reading it, but it didn't have the PLAN we needed. This other couple suggested that if we (well, me) LET GO a bit and get more of a separate life from my H, we could have a great marriage like theirs, too!

Yeah, they're divorced now. The wife was having an affair on all her "ME" time.

ETA: that's in IRL couple, not one from the board. Just to clarify!


faint Just goes to show, ya never know where a person's really coming from.
I honestly don't remember how, but I found MB almost a year ago. My marriage had hit a low point (no affair, but our love banks were dangerously low). We were on edge with each other and feeling hopelessly disconnected. We weren't understanding the other person; where they were coming from, what they wanted, and we didn't know how to FEEL the love again. We both knew the love was there in but couldn't bring it to the fore-front because we were both so hurt and frustrated.

Scotty's story was the first thread I read here. It took me three days but I read every post. I cried and felt pain for her. I was also overwhelmed by the support system on MB. I started reading other threads and all of the FREE information on this site.

The concepts Dr. Harley writes about seem so simple and so basic, but I couldn't see them on my own. Reading SAA threads was a supplement to the MB concepts he posts on here (again, for FREE). It truly helped me to see my husbands POV and recognize what I was doing wrong. It helped me to truly recognize that I could only change myself, so I did. I put the MB program into practice and committed to filling up my husband's love bank. While we've had highs and lows over the last 9 months, the changes I see in us and in him are like night and day. And this is without DH even reading the MB material (although I have mentioned the site before).

It's not right for others to come here and make suggestions that don't follow the MB program guidelines. Like others have said, this said is paid for and managed by Dr. Harley to share his concepts. Mentioning other books is okay if they are presented as supplemental, but the "bible" should be MB books.

I owe Dr. Harley so much more than I will ever be able to repay. I could cry enough tears to fill a swimming pool I feel so much gratitude to him and the material and support he offers here. Just the fact that his concepts are here FREE for anyone to read and learn from tells me he wants to see everyone succeed in their marriage. I have shared this place with friends and strangers alike because I believe in the principles so strongly.

We are ALL so fortunate to be here and I think everyone posting should respect Dr. Harley and his program. Respect those who come here looking for help by guiding them through MB. Teaching MB principles is the best gift we could give a person who needs our help to either improve or recover their marriage. Like Prisca said "The Five Love Languages, while nice, didn't save our marriage. Marriage Builders did."
Just jumping on this thread to clarify a few issues.

We CAN, always have & DO discuss other marriage programs & books. But PLEASE!!...NOT on a newbies thread or on the thread of a member still struggling with the destruction. PLEASE help them to learn Dr Harley's concepts & principles so they can SEE the diffference & the benefits as they explore other options. And no links. Dr Harley is providing this website for our use FREE so we can learn about HIS program.

And while we are discussing other websites,,PLEASE do not go to other sites and create any problems in the name of MarriageBuilders. WE do NOT want any board wars.

PLEASE email me if you have any further questions and/or concerns.
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: nikko
i guess i am wondering WHEN this changed?? i remember back in the day we discussed everything....along with mb's we talked about 5 love languages and many other resources....having those discussions never took away from helping people on here.


BUT.... it does take away when someone promotes such a book to a newcomer who is here to learn about Marriage Builders. It muddies the waters because they are entirely different programs. [even though Chapman uses the term "Love Tank" - gee, wonder where he got that?? grin]





my question was when this changed?? i never said to tell newbies to not follow the plan. i enjoyed hearing open and honest opinions. most of the time you realized through these conversations that mb's had a more concrete plan. we also showed a lot more respect to others...in my opinion.
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: nikko
i guess i am wondering WHEN this changed?? i remember back in the day we discussed everything....along with mb's we talked about 5 love languages and many other resources....having those discussions never took away from helping people on here.

i get why the harleys want to promote only mb's....i have no problem with that, i get it. what i dont understand is when it changed and did i miss a posting somewhere that it was no longer allowed to discuss these other sources?


I'm told that it changed when Dr. Harley started managing the board more actively and took a hand in selecting a moderation staff that would enforce the rule you now see posted above:

please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders® concepts.

I'm guessing there was probably a day when that was not posted.

Anyway, it seems to me nobody ever gets in trouble for comparing and contrasting Marriage Builders to their own ideas and objections, or to other programs, ON THEIR OWN THREAD. I could be wrong.


thank you for trying to answer that. i guess i just feel like i missed some big announcement or something. lol
thank you Justuss!
Originally Posted By: nikko




my question was when this changed?? i never said to tell newbies to not follow the plan. i enjoyed hearing open and honest opinions. most of the time you realized through these conversations that mb's had a more concrete plan. we also showed a lot more respect to others...in my opinion.


I guess it started changing over the past year and a half, thankfully. I disagree that hearing about different plans helped a newcomer realise that MB had a more concrete plan. All it did was cause confusion for absolutely no good reason.

I think we show alot more respect NOW. When I arrived, betrayed spouses were routinely attacked by waywards from TOW and this board. You don't see call out threads and attacks on BS's from WS's anymore. You don't see BS' beat up for making "disresectful judgments" when they say anything negative about adultery.

Quote:
i enjoyed hearing open and honest opinions.


Me too. Especially Marriage Builder's honest "opinion" that this board is ultimately for MARRIAGE BUILDERS and if you have another opinion, and it is on a newcomers thread, you oughta keep it to yourself.
Even though we might not always understand the edits from the mods, I appreciate so much the more active hand they take.

I still remember very well when I was blatantly and cruelly attacked myself, not only for trying to help a deployed soldier deal with the news of his WW's A and implement MB plans, but also very personally for my own role as a recovered BS. She thought I was "pitiful" for agreeing to reconcile with my dear AJ.

I remember many other attacks on others who mean a lot to me...people who would come on here and try to stir up all kinds of garbage by either viciously attacking established posters or running hurting newbies off.

Whatever struggles or disagreements we have on the board now, I haven't seen that kind of problem to that kind of extent in a long time.
I also think it started about a year and a half or so ago.

Personally, I like the more focused board. It has helped reduce the trolls. I do recall the one "member" a few years ago who actually came on the boards here and had the nerve to post links to her own marital counseling site. She posed as a betrayed spouse at first, and then its found out that she was actually a counselor looking for Dr. Harley's CLIENTS.

So you can see the dangers that are here. Dr. Harley offers us this forum and his plans for free. I look at other things, and use Dr. Harley's plan as the major framework and concepts.

He calls them BASIC CONCEPTS - I think because they give me the foundations for the marriage.

Other information and knowledge help me fill out the marriage and relationship for my unique situation. For example, a couple of my husband's emotional needs are not on Dr. Harley's list. So, I have to be aware of those, and meet them - I have to know they are not on the list, understand them, and adjust the BASIC CONCEPTS in this regard. Not a major adjust, but a little different from the basics he offers.

I also add information from my religion, because that is something that influences my marriage.

I also add information from my husband's culture, as his cultural background and religious beliefs are not the same as mine, so we must take this into account in our relationship and marriage.


But would a newcomer understand this? No way!


I worked hard to understand the basics, then the larger picture, then the nuances. I worked hard to apply these ideas in my life - all during the most major life crises I had ever faced.

Did I need anybody trying to sell me their "other great ideas" and steer me elsewhere?

Nope. I remember that troll as clear as day. It was upsetting to me, and I wasn't a newbie. I can't imagine what a newbie might have thought.....I would have left and looked somewhere else with less DRAMA. Because I had enough.

I vote (if we are even voting) that I like the Marriage Builders site, I love the MB program and concepts, and that the boards are moderated about as well as I think the owner wants them moderated (and that is HIS VOTE - he owns it!).

Sorry, I didn't really have a vote in the moderation thingy. I don't think I've ever been edited, because for some reason I think I try to

control myself.


Go figure.



Anyway, let's take care of our newbies, respect Dr. Harley's gift to us, and sing


kumbahya. or however you spell it.


SB
Originally Posted By: schoolbus

I vote (if we are even voting) that I like the Marriage Builders site, I love the MB program and concepts, and that the boards are moderated about as well as I think the owner wants them moderated (and that is HIS VOTE - he owns it!).

Sorry, I didn't really have a vote in the moderation thingy. I don't think I've ever been edited, because for some reason I think I try to

control myself.


Go figure.



Anyway, let's take care of our newbies, respect Dr. Harley's gift to us, and sing


kumbahya. or however you spell it.


SB


I vote we sing "Michael, Row the Boat Ashore." That song makes me cry.
grin
mel, i have not said to do this to a newcomer...please stop making it seem like that is what i was trying to say. i said i enjoyed hearing open and honest opinions.

when i showed up here i was as broken as anyone. i found a lifeline...marriagebuilders. i read nlearned, posted and learned some more. i even did the phone counseling for as long as i could. i read others threads and i learned from them....and if the discussion was about other resources...i would check them out. what i found was i liked marriagebuilders better. i am a simple person and i didnt get confused at all.

"Me too. Especially Marriage Builder's honest "opinion" that this board is ultimately for MARRIAGE BUILDERS and if you have another opinion, and it is on a newcomers thread, you oughta keep it to yourself."

in my opinion....that is not being respectful mel. again you make it sound like i am on all the newbies threads spouting non mb's things. i haven't and i dont....and i would again appreciate it if you would stop making it sound like i am.
Originally Posted By: nikko
mel, i have not said to do this to a newcomer...please stop making it seem like that is what i was trying to say. i said i enjoyed hearing open and honest opinions.


And I said I do too. I very much enjoy the honest opinion that Marriage Builders is for the discussion of Marriage Builders. That is open and honest, IMO.

Quote:
and if the discussion was about other resources...i would check them out. what i found was i liked marriagebuilders better. i am a simple person and i didnt get confused at all.


I DID get very confused when I arrived here and so have others. That is why it is important to keep advice focused on Marriage Builders and not every other dog and cat program. That should be a basic expectation to read about Marriage Builders when one comes to Marriage Builders.

Quote:


in my opinion....that is not being respectful mel. again you make it sound like i am on all the newbies threads spouting non mb's things. i haven't and i dont....and i would again appreciate it if you would stop making it sound like i am.


I didn't say any such thing; I'm not aware that you post to newcomers at all. I think it is disrespectful to come to Marriage Builders and disrupt the threads of newcomers with personal philosophies that contradict Marriage Builders.
SERIOUSLY? These types of discussions always tend to deteriorate into a fight of wills. There are strong people who are opinionated on these boards and whom ADORE DrH. We are all entitled to our opinions and feelings. The problems come when we are attacking one another on a thread, even a newbie thread(I've been here 10.5 months and I have seen it many MANY times), and try to WIN. All that happens when the discussion changes from the topics to personal attacks and attacks on people's characters is a breakdown of REAL communication. There is NO winner. The boards and this community are the losers when this happens.

Often, bouncing ideas off of many people is a good thing. People have their own experiences and their own voices and each one adds to the conversation when the objective is to improve someone else's life. THAT should be the main goal here. Using the MB concepts to IMPROVE a posters life. There are LIVES at the other ends of these words and sometimes people's personal agendas and vendettas get in the way of REAL advice.

I am eternally grateful that I found MB and I can honestly say that hearing the way MB used to be, even a couple of years ago, it is the FIRST time that I am thankful for having found it when I did. I don't think I could have followed MB any better the old way. Who knows?
Originally Posted By: Neak
I still remember very well when I was blatantly and cruelly attacked myself, not only for trying to help a deployed soldier deal with the news of his WW's A and implement MB plans, but also very personally for my own role as a recovered BS. She thought I was "pitiful" for agreeing to reconcile with my dear AJ.


When you're done making your sister's birthday dinner, call me up and tell me who this was. I forgot although I think I remember who the soldier was. Was I ever this forgetful before? I can't remember...MrRollieEyes

tl
I know dis answer!! laugh
That would be when Neak made Cinnamon Toast.
You two are gonna get old someday, too, you know! crazy

tl

P.S. Did the toast have sugar on it?
Quote:
P.S. Did the toast have sugar on it?


Yes I believe so..
Quote:
NED, yes Dr Harley makes references to other complementary sources, such as Alanon and AA, but he does not endorse other marriage programs....Surely, you understand it is not the goal of Marriage Builders to have a bad marriage, right? In that newsletter, Dr Harley understands that sometimes there are no good options and that staying in a bad marriage for the children might be the best of bad options. But that doesn't mean Dr Harley is endorsing bad marriages.

My gosh, Marriage Builders saved my marriage. Is it too much to hope that others get the same thing? I passionately want others to get what I have in my marriage so I get a little frustrated when I see folks trying to stand in the way.


ML, I think you and I agree on a lot more than we disagree on. I agree, Dr. H refers to outside stuff, but not as an endorsement. Best would be getting the romantic love back. That's not going to happen for everyone, so there are other options. But you don't know until you try. You know, as long as it's safe, like The 1st Guideline for Successful Negotiation describes. This all I agree with.

Quote:
It boggles my mind that people would be so adamant about promoting anything BUT Marriage Builders on Marriage Builders.


This is the kind of quote that I am having a tough time with. We all do have a common purpose, supporting folks in their journey to restore romantic love to their marriage. For posters posting for help with this, helping them create loving marriages that last a lifetime. To me, terms like "boggles my mind" and "adamant" are divisive words. I feel like we are a community. Like others here, through my own fault or whatever, I am facing huge personal loss, more grief sometimes than I know how to make sense of. And so I reach out to this place for support, and even more, for a sense of common purpose. So to see these loaded terms, I gotta wonder, "can't we all just get along?"
maritalbliss, I'm not saying newcomers should be bombarded with lots of programs here. I'm saying that I think of the whole lot of us as like brethren in a way, taking on a common purpose together. So I would totally love it if my fellow posters were not referred to like this: "it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info." I've never even seen such a thing like this take place, so I don't think a comment like this is accurate.
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay


Quote:
It boggles my mind that people would be so adamant about promoting anything BUT Marriage Builders on Marriage Builders.


[quote]To me, terms like "boggles my mind" and "adamant" are divisive words. I feel like we are a community. Like others here, through my own fault or whatever,


I am more concerned with the divisive ACTIONS I described. If my words sound "divisive" it is because they are describing divisive actions. And yes, that boggles my mind.
I wouldn't say resent, like angry, I'm just sad. I miss all of us working side-by-side to help folks together. Just being honest. I hear you that you felt that MB wasn't discussed. I believe you, but that wasn't my experience, and I think that we could have, that we can, find some common framework to work together in.
Okay, ML, I respect your decision.
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
So I would totally love it if my fellow posters were not referred to like this: "it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info." I've never even seen such a thing like this take place, so I don't think a comment like this is accurate.


NED, I don't know where you have been, but I have been on the front lines here for almost 10 years and her comment most certainly is accurate. Why do you think a new policy has been put in place? If there was not an issue, there would be no need for such a policy.
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
So I would totally love it if my fellow posters were not referred to like this: "it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info." I've never even seen such a thing like this take place, so I don't think a comment like this is accurate.


NED, I find it curious that you are more concerned with how destructive posters are defined than with how their destructive behavior affects newcomers. She is simply stating truth when she says it is disingenuious to mislead newcomers with contradictory info.

I really don't care at all what words we use to describe such behavior; rather I care about their negative impact on newcomers.
You have every right to feel that way. I learned here that it's important for relationships that everyone shares their O&H. I don't view the folks you are referring to as destructive. I see them as folks who share our goal here: to help folks in their goal to restore romantic love to their marriages.
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
I don't view the folks you are referring to as destructive. I see them as folks who share our goal here: to help folks in their goal to restore romantic love to their marriages.


Dr Harley's goal is for people to come here and learn about Marriage Builders and achieve a romantic marriage. So, if anyone interferes with that goal, they are destructive to that mission. And destructive to that newcomer. Substituting one's own personal philosophy for tried and true Marriage Builders concepts helps no one and makes it hard to help people.
Here's how I define destructive posters:


  • Those who gleefully post about revenge affairs, bait and mock their suffering betrayed spouses, and otherwise disrupt the flow of support to any thread.
  • Those who rob a betrayed husband/father of his access to his children
  • Those who use this board to otherwise gain further advantage over a wounded spouse in the legal system
  • Those who forget that the people going through the challenges of exposure, Plan A, Plan B, Plan D are the only ones who have to suffer the consequences of the advice they take here and the advice they ignore, and wield 2x4s with no compassion
  • Those who forget that this is a forum that advocates a process, a method by which has a higher probability of successful personal outcomes regardless of the outcome for the marriage.


However, if we sanitize the feedback here so tightly that any personalized experiences of the application or misapplication of Dr. Harley's principles don't clearly get conveyed, or get edited, Dr. Harley may as well close up a public forum, or only allow himself to post experiences and advice here.

It loses all value eventually as a public-access forum.

As it is, Dr. Harley couldn't do better than to have the success stories from the likes of you Mel, Pepperband, Mimi, Leilani, The Wonderings, Neak, Princessmeggy, MarriedForever, (since I'm coming up with these off the top of my head, forgive me if I leave someone out) and others who have passed the test of time with their marriages in tact. But then there's also the personal success stories where the marriage didn't recover - like SilentLucidity, LilSis, HappyinOkla and many others who don't come here anymore. It's too bad that some of those success stories could really help some who have been posting and enduring Plan B - Petals, Scotland, Hope, Holyheart, HopeEternal - and many many more. That would be even greater benefit to Dr. Harley and those who come here in a crisis. To know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and value in following the system that Dr. Harley has developed.

These vets are missed. It would help if they were here. Once a week. Posting in a successblog. I hope they come back. For the good of Dr. Harley's program.
The most destructive thing said to me on this board was that I was responsible for my H lying. That, and that I was a controlling B for telling my H when he LBd me.

Mr Wondering told me that I shouldn't care about something that my H wanted to do that I DID care about. I don't consider him a good source of MB for that. He promoted IB, and suggested that I just get over it.
Originally Posted By: KaylaAndy
But then there's also the personal success stories where the marriage didn't recover - like SilentLucidity, LilSis, HappyinOkla and many others who don't come here anymore. It's too bad that some of those success stories could really help some who have been posting and enduring Plan B - Petals, Scotland, Hope, Holyheart, HopeEternal - and many many more. That would be even greater benefit to Dr. Harley and those who come here in a crisis. To know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and value in following the system that Dr. Harley has developed.


I agree. Sometimes the definition of success is divorce. We have had many posters over the years who are divorced now and this was the best thing for their situation.

I would add this to your list of destructive posters:


  • Those who post conflicting personal opinions to newcomers who are here to learn Marriage Builders


Quote:
However, if we sanitize the feedback here so tightly that any personalized experiences of the application or misapplication of Dr. Harley's principles don't clearly get conveyed, or get edited, Dr. Harley may as well close up a public forum, or only allow himself to post experiences and advice here.



I am not sure what you mean by "sanitized," but if that is how you define recommending Marriage Builders concepts to newcomers, I will disagree that is a bad thing. Marriages don't recover by twisting the concepts or teaching people to misapply the concepts. Our best thinking screwed up our marriages so it sure isn't going to save them.


There is a very narrow path to recovery, and I am reminded of Dr Harley's words in Requirements for Recovery:

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.


He said "even small deviations are disasterous," and this has been my observation over the years. So when some newcomer BS doesn't want to believe that her WH has to leave his job with his OW it makes it very hard to persuade her otherwise when someone posts conflicting advice. That poster is destructive to that newcomer and makes it all the harder to help her when she is already under duress.
Originally Posted By: KA
But then there's also the personal success stories where the marriage didn't recover - like SilentLucidity, LilSis, HappyinOkla and many others who don't come here anymore. It's too bad that some of those success stories could really help some who have been posting and enduring Plan B - Petals, Scotland, Hope, Holyheat, HopeEternal - and many many more. That would be even greater benefit to Dr. Harley and those who come here in a crisis. To know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and value in following the system that Dr. Harley has developed.


I do post often these days, Kayla, and mostly to those going into Plan B. I was just mentioning to Queenie that there is a lack of information for those AFTER they enter Plan B, except to stay dark. The first few weeks are sooooo very difficult for many and being here to help people remain dark is supremely helpful, in a time when you are going thru withdrawal and doubting going into Plan b in the first place. Mimi not only helped me during the false recoveries, but ushered me into Plan B and forced me to look inward. Were it not for this forum, I don't know what sort of support I would have found. So many people ACCEPT infidelity as a part of life and have no idea how to deal with the walking wounded.

This place does.
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
He said "even small deviations are disasterous," and this has been my observation over the years. So when some newcomer BS doesn't want to believe that her WH has to leave his job with his OW it makes it very hard to persuade her otherwise when someone posts conflicting advice. That poster is destructive to that newcomer and makes it all the harder to help her when she is already under duress.


I very much agree with this. Newbies will cling to any suggestion as a general rule which encourages them to do what they instinctively believe to be right. The whole point is that dealing with an affair is totally non-instinctive and hard decisions and choices must be made if there is to be any chance. Nice soft words offering "alternative" non MB advice are incredibly destructive in that situation.
Quote:
"it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info." I've never even seen such a thing like this take place, so I don't think a comment like this is accurate.


You really haven't?? I've actually had to tell two posters that I know of to STOP IT! Newbies will post ONE post and they're replying "your M will never work, dump the WS." or "you have a serial cheater on your hands" or "your WS is a sex addict and needs professional help". They are coming strictly from their own context, many times without even knowing the other poster's whole story. And always without introducing any MB concepts. One poster actually told a BS that their M wasn't worth saving because they didn't have any kids! crazy
My fav (not) are the newbies who go into a semi-Plan B because they believe their circumstances are "different" or "unique". sigh What I've figured out is that most of the time they eventually come around or they just leave. That's sad to me, especially when it looks like they may have a chance.

It also bugs the heck out of me when a newbie is told right off the bat to go to Plan B-- today, right now, this instant -- with no instruction on planning or preparation to protect them. I know some situations do require an immediate Plan B, but newbies need to learn what Plan B involves and be well-prepared before they jump in.

One more thing, I confess that sometimes I'm guilty of writing someone off too quick when they challenge or question the Plans or refuse to follow the advice they're given. God bless those who DO stick around and who are more patient. I need to do better. Maybe I should remind myself of the absolute agony and pain that newbies are feeling.

Great discussion BTW.
Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
Quote:
"it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info." I've never even seen such a thing like this take place, so I don't think a comment like this is accurate.


You really haven't?? I've actually had to tell two posters that I know of to STOP IT! Newbies will post ONE post and they're replying "your M will never work, dump the WS." or "you have a serial cheater on your hands" or "your WS is a sex addict and needs professional help". They are coming strictly from their own context, many times without even knowing the other poster's whole story. And always without introducing any MB concepts. One poster actually told a BS that their M wasn't worth saving because they didn't have any kids! crazy


And here is a perfect example of this from yesterday from the D/D forum. It was frustrating reading the story because the newbie was pointing blame at WH after she had A's but this was the first post that she received.

Originally Posted By: jmwc95
We usually tell betrayed spouses on this board to divorce their WSs if they are multiple offenders. What is this, your 4th affair now. He shouldn't try to save the marriage because you'll just do this again in another couple years. Sure, this does not excuse his behavior. He's in the wrong as well. Both of you are screwed up, dysfunctional people. Both of you should probably divorce and spend some time ALONE to fix yourselves, because until you do, you will just continue your dysfunctional behavior with someone else. I feel sorry for your kids.

However, you can't be pissed that your husband is no longer fighting for you after multiple affairs. Where do you get off? You made your bed. Now you need to lie in it.
Quote:
You really haven't?? I've actually had to tell two posters that I know of to STOP IT! Newbies will post ONE post and they're replying "your M will never work, dump the WS."


I have had to ask a certain poster more than a few times to knock this off too...as well as her beating up very distraught newly BW's who are so in the trenches they can't tell which way is up.

THIS really, really bothers me because her "advice" is completely anti-MB and I know from personal experience that a M can be saved even when it looks like the odds are completely against recovery.

Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
"your M will never work, dump the WS." or "you have a serial cheater on your hands" or "your WS is a sex addict and needs professional help". They are coming strictly from their own context, many times without even knowing the other poster's whole story. And always without introducing any MB concepts. One poster actually told a BS that their M wasn't worth saving because they didn't have any kids! crazy


I will admit I have advised this from time to time. I always try to temper it with the advice that their marriage CAN be saved should they desire it and let them know what the challenges will be and see if THEY feel it is worth it.

I don't know if that is the best way to approach situations like that or not, now. I think I need to think about this a little more.

ANY marriage can be saved if you can get both people on board, but sometimes it isn't worth it and sometimes the BS just isn't up for what recovery takes. I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with that.
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
So I would totally love it if my fellow posters were not referred to like this: "it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info." I've never even seen such a thing like this take place, so I don't think a comment like this is accurate.


I agree with maritalbliss ~ really? Are you on SAA enough to even be able to offer an observation like that? (that is not an insult, just an honest question...IDK that I have seen your name over here too much)

Just off the top of my head, there was a poster who was very obviously doing a lot of this type of posting up until maybe a week or two ago...so again, it really surprises me to hear you say that...
Originally Posted By: CWMI
The most destructive thing said to me on this board was that I was responsible for my H lying. That, and that I was a controlling B for telling my H when he LBd me.


The way these sentences were laid out it appears you are saying that I said the above to you. I don't think I did and if I did, I'll address it seperately.


Originally Posted By: CWMI
Mr Wondering told me that I shouldn't care about something that my H wanted to do that I DID care about. I don't consider him a good source of MB for that. He promoted IB, and suggested that I just get over it.


First off, your husband isn't here so I didn't "promote" or otherwise encourage him to IB.

Second, it's very debatable that the situation you are referring to, buying donuts and taking them to work, IS a an "independent behavior". I think it's an "annoying habit". But either way...whenever someone posts these type conflicts on the private forums (which happens a lot) Dr. Harley always comes in and tries to refocus them on working the plan and building love bank accounts and putting the conflict off for later...when they are more "in love" and thus, more receptive to criticism and sensitive to their spouses feelings.

In fact...here is part of a post he made just THIS MORNING:

Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
Your wife's willingness to join you in following this program is the most important factor. The program itself will not only teach you how to negotiate (you're not there yet), but it will also help you make enough Love Bank deposits, and avoid enough withdrawals, so that your wife views you as her lover rather than someone she must put up with. [edit]

My advice right now is to take on simple conflicts that can be easily discussed and resolved. Practice doing what works first. Become more affectionate, make your conversation with her more interesting to her, your time together should become the best time of her week.

So my advice for the moment is to leave sensitive issues alone until she is clearly enjoying her time for undivided attention with you. Then I'd mention it. She probably already knows it bothers you from past conversations, so as your relationship improves, she may become more sensitive to your feelings without you having to say anything.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.



I've said this before, IMO, MB is not a conflict resolution program. The MB theory is that conflict is mostly resolved when the couple falls romantically in love again using the MB program. As you work the program you PRACTICE utilizing POJA, but it's the spring training of POJA (i.e. - "you aren't there yet"). POJA is only really effective after you fall in love with your spouse. Until then...there is too often a tendency to use it as the POJA stick. To win battles and sort out resentments. It is my opinion that that is what you were doing...saying "I'm not enthusiatic about you taking donuts to work" in an effort to control/micro-manage what essentially was/is, IMO, an annoying habit.

Some of it, perhaps, was a misunderstanding. As I recall, your actual communication on the issue with your husband differed tremendously from the way it SEEMED to be portrayed here on the board. You did make a lot of disrespectful judgements about your husband's motivations to take donuts to work but it appeared later those were only written here and not communicated directly to him. The whole donut situation appeared to be the World War III of conflicts when, I think you'd admit, it was an pretty small conflict...in real life. I apologize if I inferred a bigger conflict than actually took place. I also acknowledge I was a little exasperated with you and posted somewhat aggessively under the impression that you were being way over the top about such matter in real life.

Mr. Wondering




Edit to add: Here's another private forum example:

Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley


...

The way to resolve a conflict the right way is to understand the other person's position, and then try to accommodate that position along with your own so that a mutually enthusiastic outcome results. Until you are both happy with the way the conflict is to be handled, you continue to negotiate. Demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts ruin any hope of finding a mutually enthusiastic outcome, so if safety cannot be guaranteed, negotiation should not even be attempted.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.



At that time I inferred you WERE making demands, disrespectful judgements and angry outburst. I perceived YOU were love busting your husband OVER DONUTS. I wasn't the only one that thought that based upon your posts at that time. Thus, negotiations (poja) over the donuts shouldn't have been undertaken at all. Just because your husband seems somewhat easy going and was willing to accomodate your demand (he inevitably didn't take donuts to work with him) doesn't mean you didn't lovebust him. I also thought at the time, just perhaps, micro-managing him might be YOUR annoying habit???? (remember you are the one here posting getting assistance and I WANT YOU TO HAVE A GREAT MARRIAGE OF EXTRA-ORDINARY CARE AND ROMANTIC LOVE. My wife and I are on the side of your marriage and we both sometimes wish a few of the other wives around here over time had your gumption/moxie)

Originally Posted By: MrWondering
Originally Posted By: CWMI
The most destructive thing said to me on this board was that I was responsible for my H lying. That, and that I was a controlling B for telling my H when he LBd me.


The way these sentences were laid out it appears you are saying that I said the above to you. I don't think I did and if I did, I'll address it seperately.


It is my opinion that that is what you were doing...saying "I'm not enthusiatic about you taking donuts to work" in an effort to control/micro-manage what essentially was/is, IMO, an annoying habit.



Mr. Wondering


If you didn't say it before, you said it now. Well, the controlling part, anyway. Does it make a difference if it's labeled IB or AH? They're both LBs.
Susie, no, I'm not on SAA much, I post mostly on MB 101, and haven't seen newbies slammed with "kick 'em to the curb" rhetoric over there. Sometimes folks make decisions for their lives that are different than the choices that make sense to me in my life, but I'm grateful for the opportunity to support folks in their goals to restore their marriage, if that's what they choose. My mom years ago wanted to convince my dad, a serial cheater, to stay, but she didn't have the support or information, like we do here, to do that. I wish she'd have had this type of support available.
Quote:
Does it make a difference if it's labeled IB or AH? They're both LBs.


cwmi, if you think this, that's cool, but since you're here, I encourage you to reread the Q&As about annoying habits. The plan for those is to pick one the top 5 for the moment, work on that one alone, and add the others to the list to be tackled later. It's something like when just 3 or so are eliminated, the rest become no longer LBs, because you're back in romatic love. You'd think it's a cute quirk, not as gaining something at your expense. You have cute quirks, that don't annoy him or make withdrawals, right?
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
Quote:
Does it make a difference if it's labeled IB or AH? They're both LBs.


cwmi, if you think this, that's cool, but since you're here, I encourage you to reread the Q&As about annoying habits. The plan for those is to pick one the top 5 for the moment, work on that one alone, and add the others to the list to be tackled later. It's something like when just 3 or so are eliminated, the rest become no longer LBs, because you're back in romatic love. You'd think it's a cute quirk, not as gaining something at your expense. You have cute quirks, that don't annoy him or make withdrawals, right?


threadjack/ (because this isn't what this thread is about!)

FTR, and not that anyone asked, I do believe this is a POJA issue ~ POJA states "do not do ANYTHING without your spouse's "enthusiastic agreement"".

CWMI's H IS doing something without her enthusiastic agreement and it's draining her LB$. Maybe it seems petty or controlling to some people but that isn't the issue ~ for whatever reason it bothers her (could be a money issue, could be a health issue, who knows) ~ and it SHOULD be POJA'ed ~ EVERYTHING should in a M.

As to whether or not they are not "there yet" in using POJA I don't know ~ Dr. H repeatedly says to use POJA on small issues first, and this seems like a fairly small issue.

My $.02 worth.

/threadjack
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Originally Posted By: MrWondering
Originally Posted By: CWMI
The most destructive thing said to me on this board was that I was responsible for my H lying. That, and that I was a controlling B for telling my H when he LBd me.


The way these sentences were laid out it appears you are saying that I said the above to you. I don't think I did and if I did, I'll address it seperately.


It is my opinion that that is what you were doing...saying "I'm not enthusiatic about you taking donuts to work" in an effort to control/micro-manage what essentially was/is, IMO, an annoying habit.



Mr. Wondering


If you didn't say it before, you said it now. Well, the controlling part, anyway. Does it make a difference if it's labeled IB or AH? They're both LBs.


There is a difference between annoying habits and independent behavior.

IB - one spouse makes unilateral decisions that affects the other spouse

vs.

AH - one spouse persistently does something that bugs/annoys the other


Your husband stopping off on his way into work and buying donuts for the guys in the shop really didn't affect you. To me...it was like you complaining that he stopped off at Burger King for a sausage, egg and cheese bagel and you HATE burger king. It's a small thing in the grand scheme of things. I'm not denying that it ANNOYED you that he did this and his habit of doing these small gestures for other persons is/was habitual but such annoyance doesn't compare to a true IB like having lunch at strip bars or insisting on having co-ed or weekly golf outings or even insisting it is OK to kiss and hug his female friends (which is the situation Dr. Harley was addressing with the above quoted advice)

IB's should be communicated immediately and eliminated promptly. AH's should be addressed as part of a plan to eliminate lovebusters. You should both sit down and list things out that BUG YOU and negotiate them one at a time safely and carefully. Criticism should be avoided and acknowledged as a lovebuster.

Here is how Dr. Harley thinks annoying habits are to be addressed:

Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
None of us likes criticism, so I encourage both of you to avoid pointing out each other's annoying habits unless you are both prepared to do something about it. It's an enemy of good conversation to blind-side each other with criticism, ruining your time together by talking about how much you annoy each other. Many couples spend so much of their time together being critical of each other that each experience is a nightmare. How long can that last? I want your time together to be as enjoyable as possible, and criticism will have you both running for cover. If one of you does something that annoys the other, it's okay to mention it. But then drop the subject until you are able to deal with the problem effectively.

Your approach to annoying habits should be organized with an agreed upon plan to eliminate whatever it is. Unless you have such a plan, all you will accomplish with your criticism is a loss of love units whenever you bring up the subject.




Sooooo...did you handle the donut situation appropriately??? Your posts at the time didn't seem to suggest you did but I don't know...I wasn't there.

Mr. Wondering <---willing to be wrong but a tad annoyed himself that his 1000's of posts on MB are being put into question over a couple of posts about donuts.
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
Quote:
Does it make a difference if it's labeled IB or AH? They're both LBs.


cwmi, if you think this, that's cool, but since you're here, I encourage you to reread the Q&As about annoying habits. The plan for those is to pick one the top 5 for the moment, work on that one alone, and add the others to the list to be tackled later. It's something like when just 3 or so are eliminated, the rest become no longer LBs, because you're back in romatic love. You'd think it's a cute quirk, not as gaining something at your expense. You have cute quirks, that don't annoy him or make withdrawals, right?


threadjack/ (because this isn't what this thread is about!)

FTR, and not that anyone asked, I do believe this is a POJA issue ~ POJA states "do not do ANYTHING without your spouse's "enthusiastic agreement"".

CWMI's H IS doing something without her enthusiastic agreement and it's draining her LB$. Maybe it seems petty or controlling to some people but that isn't the issue ~ for whatever reason it bothers her (could be a money issue, could be a health issue, who knows) ~ and it SHOULD be POJA'ed ~ EVERYTHING should in a M.

As to whether or not they are not "there yet" in using POJA I don't know ~ Dr. H repeatedly says to use POJA on small issues first, and this seems like a fairly small issue.

My $.02 worth.

/threadjack


Yes and no...If you'll note, on the private forum, Dr. Harley MANY, MANY times tells people NOT to negotiate [use POJA] YET...He advises them to spend UA time together FIRST - fill those lovebanks - and AVOID negotiations until the LB$ balance is higher...MB is NOT simply a conflict resolution program - It is a program designed to create and maintain romantic love - I understand that using POJA is a part of that, but POJA can't be effectively used if lovebanks are deep in the red...

Mrs. W
Originally Posted By: MrsWondering
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
Quote:
Does it make a difference if it's labeled IB or AH? They're both LBs.


cwmi, if you think this, that's cool, but since you're here, I encourage you to reread the Q&As about annoying habits. The plan for those is to pick one the top 5 for the moment, work on that one alone, and add the others to the list to be tackled later. It's something like when just 3 or so are eliminated, the rest become no longer LBs, because you're back in romatic love. You'd think it's a cute quirk, not as gaining something at your expense. You have cute quirks, that don't annoy him or make withdrawals, right?


threadjack/ (because this isn't what this thread is about!)

FTR, and not that anyone asked, I do believe this is a POJA issue ~ POJA states "do not do ANYTHING without your spouse's "enthusiastic agreement"".

CWMI's H IS doing something without her enthusiastic agreement and it's draining her LB$. Maybe it seems petty or controlling to some people but that isn't the issue ~ for whatever reason it bothers her (could be a money issue, could be a health issue, who knows) ~ and it SHOULD be POJA'ed ~ EVERYTHING should in a M.

As to whether or not they are not "there yet" in using POJA I don't know ~ Dr. H repeatedly says to use POJA on small issues first, and this seems like a fairly small issue.

My $.02 worth.

/threadjack


Yes and no...If you'll note, on the private forum, Dr. Harley MANY, MANY times tells people NOT to negotiate [use POJA] YET...He advises them to spend UA time together FIRST - fill those lovebanks - and AVOID negotiations until the LB$ balance is higher...MB is NOT simply a conflict resolution program - It is a program designed to create and maintain romantic love - I understand that using POJA is a part of that, but POJA can't be effectively used if lovebanks are deep in the red...

Mrs. W


It's an interesting conundrum because personally I wouldn't want to spend UA time with DH if he is continually LBing me with an IB/AH/refusal to use POJA.

Not only would I not want to spend the time, but any UA time would be undone by these LBers. Everyone is different in how they respond to stimuli in the LB$s I suppose.

For me LB$ deposits were not made if POJA was not being used concurrently and I suspect CWMI is the same way.
I’ve been accused a few times of not giving MB advice, but I don’t think my inputs or that of others should be dismissed out of hand.

I believe that MB is the way to go if you wish to recover a marriage when infidelity is the issue BUT:

1. I don’t believe a short marriage with no kids and adultery involved is worth saving. There’s too many people in the world to put up with this kind of abuse, IMHO.

2. Marriages with kids are worth the attempt to save but not at the expense of rights as a father or parent. By this I mean that a BS needs to make sure they are protected and are ready to fight the legal fight if necessary. I followed a path of appeasement and a mistaken belief that I was in a “unique” situation and I gave away everything. It cost me dearly. I don’t want other betrayed spouses here to suffer the same fate.

3. I believe in strong legal defensive action while applying MB Plan A/B. Mortarman did this and saved his marriage, but did a great job of protecting himself from losing custody of his children. Many here criticize legal action by a BS when a WS is rolling the ball in that direction. I believe you fight fire with fire, but many say that’s not in the MB spirit. Too many men lose custody because they are under the delusion that the WW will “wake up” and that this is a phase she’s in. I was one of those. I don’t want a father to fall into that trap.

4. Each marriage needs to be taken by its own merits. If a person is married to a serial cheater or to someone with DEEP psychological scars, then the odds of any plan succeeding are low. If there are no kids in the equation, why stick around to rescue that kind of damaged person? Life is too short for that.

5. I love seeing a BH either stand up for himself legally and succeed there or implement exposure and Plan A/B so effectively that an affair is killed. Humbled is a great example of that and PSUBIKER did a great job protecting his legal rights. His WW is so fargone that he moved on.

6. Some of us were married to really messed up people. I was devastated to lose my marriage and my wife, but leaving me was one of the best things she ever did. I was freed from taking care of an overgrown child with deep psychological scars. Sharing this doesn’t counter MB. It simply provides a BS with a story of someone who moved on with life and was grateful that the previous marriage didn’t work because it was a life sentence had she come back. I’m glad she never did. When a BS is in the depths of despair and depression, it helps to hear stories of personal recovery and some reassurance that divorce is not the end of the world.

Again, I believe in MB as a means to recover a marriage, but the issue of infidelity is so complicated that dismissing alternative views is shortsighted. I think MB works when normal people stray. I don’t think any plan works when a person is so psychologically flawed that they get absorbed in their own little narcissistic existence which will never be changed until that person seeks help for him/herself.

My dad was a serial cheater. He has cheated on everyone he’s been with. My mom is with a good man now. Why would I want her to expose herself to being let down again if she were to ever return to my father? What do you tell a BS who has an ex return years later and they started to move on?

Even SH doesn’t advocate saving all marriages. So diverse viewpoints aren’t bad to have.

Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
It's an interesting conundrum because personally I wouldn't want to spend UA time with DH if he is continually LBing me with an IB/AH/refusal to use POJA.

Not only would I not want to spend the time, but any UA time would be undone by these LBers. Everyone is different in how they respond to stimuli in the LB$s I suppose.

For me LB$ deposits were not made if POJA was not being used concurrently and I suspect CWMI is the same way.


I dunno MF, I just know what I've read Dr. Harley advise over and over...The "you're not there yet" type of thing that Mr. W quoted in his post comes to mind...Avoiding obvious love busters, certainly - but the elimination of annoying habits must come later - pointing out how each of you annoy the other is an enemy of intimate conversation as Mr. W also cited - Many couples come to Dr. Harley with GIANT amounts of conflict, but I've never seen him try to tackle those things first - Instead he remains consistent in putting resolution of conflict on the back burner and pulls UA time to the front.

Mrs. W
Quote:
but the elimination of annoying habits must come later


Maybe this is where we disagree...I don't see this as merely an AH, I see it as an IB and refusal to use POJA. My DH had a big problem with IBs so anything that even resembled an IB triggered me and immediately drained my LB$.

I do agree that AHs should be dealt with later and not early on.
From Dr. H's description of AHs vs. IBs:

Quote:
If behavior is repeated without much thought, I call it an annoying habit. If it's usually scheduled and requires thought to complete, I call it independent behavior. Annoying habits include personal mannerisms such as the way you eat, the way you clean up after yourself (or don't!), and the way you talk. Independent behavior, which we will be discussing next, may include sporting events you attend, your choice of church, or your personal exercise program.


Picking up donuts on your way to work, because it's scheduled and requires thought to complete, falls under IBs, IMHO.

<if we wish to continue this discussion maybe we should start a new thread?>
Originally Posted By: MrsWondering

I dunno MF, I just know what I've read Dr. Harley advise over and over...The "you're not there yet" type of thing that Mr. W quoted in his post comes to mind...Avoiding obvious love busters, certainly - but the elimination of annoying habits must come later - pointing out how each of you annoy the other is an enemy of intimate conversation as Mr. W also cited - Many couples come to Dr. Harley with GIANT amounts of conflict, but I've never seen him try to tackle those things first - Instead he remains consistent in putting resolution of conflict on the back burner and pulls UA time to the front.

Mrs. W


Mrs. W, at the time we were still coaching with Steve and had been for six months. Steve never said that we were not there enough yet to POJA and spent a LOT of time coaching us on how to do just that. The whole failure to POJA and the belief that what one spouse does SHOULD NOT affect the other was at the very core of our marital problems.

For the record, it was not an annoying habit that could wait, it was a huge LB that greatly affected my respect for my H. Buying doughnuts doesn't bother me at all, but attempting to buy admiration does. Especially when done by someone as worthy of respect and admiration as my H.
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
From Dr. H's description of AHs vs. IBs:

Quote:
If behavior is repeated without much thought, I call it an annoying habit. If it's usually scheduled and requires thought to complete, I call it independent behavior. Annoying habits include personal mannerisms such as the way you eat, the way you clean up after yourself (or don't!), and the way you talk. Independent behavior, which we will be discussing next, may include sporting events you attend, your choice of church, or your personal exercise program.


Picking up donuts on your way to work, because it's scheduled and requires thought to complete, falls under IBs, IMHO.

<if we wish to continue this discussion maybe we should start a new thread?>


I could just link you to the two threads where it was already thoroughly discussed if you'd like. smile

I, too, am ready to move this thread back on topic.
I don't need to read the whole threads but did anyone ever post to Dr. H to get his opinion on this? More than anything I am just curious now as to which LBer this would fall under.
Originally Posted By: CWMI
The whole failure to POJA and the belief that what one spouse does SHOULD NOT affect the other was at the very core of our marital problems.


THIS is the basis of everything else on MB. It is at the HEART of the whole program and is the one piece that makes everything else work.

It is the realization that in order to become compatible, to become ONE with each other we must always take each other into account whenever we doing ANYTHING at all.

EVERYTHING related to Marriage Builders flows from this single premise. The methods and actions all rest on this foundation and without it, the other stuff simply becomes a bunch of stuff to do. With this as our mindset we DO the things that are Marriage Builders. Without it, we continue to struggle to figure out what is missing and what to do next.

Not having this as our reason for doing what we do it turns into me and you, your stuff and my stuff and our stuff and never really becomes US. It is knowing that what we do affects each other that allows us to find solutions to conflicts as they arise without having to be guided in the process for every step we take. It is even at the heart of how to fight an affair and is what allows a BS to fight against the real enemy of his or her marriage and stop thinking of the relationship as having become a confrontation that needs to be won over all opposition.

NOTHING in MB is more important than this fact.

Whatever we do, it affects our spouse.

Mark
Originally Posted By: MrsW
Many couples come to Dr. Harley with GIANT amounts of conflict, but I've never seen him try to tackle those things first


Because it is more important to avoid hurting each other than to find a resolution to a conflict. What we do to solve the problem is more important to the relationship than whether or not we actually find a solution.

If the Love Bank is a bucket ANY leak makes it difficult to fill the bucket and we must work harder to accomplish it. Big leaks need to be fixed pretty quickly but unless we continue filling the bucket in sufficient volume to stay ahead of the leaks, the bucket drains.

The fastest way to fill the bucket is by meeting the top Intimate Emotional Needs and this can only be done through UA time. If we can keep the level above what is required to prevent Withdrawal, and leave our spouse at least open to using his or her Giver as well as their Taker in negotiations, the conflicts themselves can be resolved...

Or not...

But either way, the bucket remains full enough to prevent it from going empty.

Mark

ETA; Back to work...See ya...
Originally Posted By: Mark1952
Originally Posted By: CWMI
The whole failure to POJA and the belief that what one spouse does SHOULD NOT affect the other was at the very core of our marital problems.


THIS is the basis of everything else on MB. It is at the HEART of the whole program and is the one piece that makes everything else work.

(snip)

NOTHING in MB is more important than this fact.

Whatever we do, it affects our spouse.

Mark


Thanks, Mark.
Originally Posted By: Mark1952
Originally Posted By: MrsW
Many couples come to Dr. Harley with GIANT amounts of conflict, but I've never seen him try to tackle those things first


Because it is more important to avoid hurting each other than to find a resolution to a conflict. What we do to solve the problem is more important to the relationship than whether or not we actually find a solution.

If the Love Bank is a bucket ANY leak makes it difficult to fill the bucket and we must work harder to accomplish it. Big leaks need to be fixed pretty quickly but unless we continue filling the bucket in sufficient volume to stay ahead of the leaks, the bucket drains.

The fastest way to fill the bucket is by meeting the top Intimate Emotional Needs and this can only be done through UA time. If we can keep the level above what is required to prevent Withdrawal, and leave our spouse at least open to using his or her Giver as well as their Taker in negotiations, the conflicts themselves can be resolved...

Or not...

But either way, the bucket remains full enough to prevent it from going empty.

Mark

ETA; Back to work...See ya...



Thanks Mark [emphasis mine]
Late as usual, but just had to lol at my friends.
LOL!
Just thinking out loud.
I remember when I first came here as a WS, one of my very first respondents said that the best thing I can do is to let my H go and that I don’t deserve him. Or something like that. My H asked me not to pay any attention and keep going. So I have.
I sometimes post to one of the local forums in our country and sometimes link my answers to MB site. And I haven’t received a single response regarding those links, but I keep doing that and won’t save my breath, because I believe in MB and want them to have the opportunity as well.
We have lived under Soviet regime and have been free for many years now, but the regime and all the suffering has taken quite a toll on our thinking and behaviour in general. We’ve become very suspicious people. It doesn’t mean that we know better, not at all, we just have to say „no“ first, then try to understand what other’s „agenda“ is (everybody has to have an agenda) and then perhaps, when this is clear and „danger“ is over, _consider_ saying „yes“. This also includes taking all which comes from US with a bit of reservation. I just believe that this is one of the reasons why people over here aren’t flowing to MB site in masses.
As it comes to screwing up our marriages – we are as professionals in that as any other.
I don’t know whether other programs work or not, because I haven’t tried them. I suspect that sooner or later I would have still landed here.
Originally Posted By: Niitse
I remember when I first came here as a WS, one of my very first respondents said that the best thing I can do is to let my H go and that I don’t deserve him. Or something like that. My H asked me not to pay any attention and keep going. So I have.


I am glad you did stick around. It makes me cringe you were told such a thing when you arrived. Good for you for sticking it out!
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
I’ve been accused a few times of not giving MB advice, but I don’t think my inputs or that of others should be dismissed out of hand.

I believe that MB is the way to go if you wish to recover a marriage when infidelity is the issue BUT:

1. I don’t believe a short marriage with no kids and adultery involved is worth saving. There’s too many people in the world to put up with this kind of abuse, IMHO.
Well, you said it best - 'in your opinion.' I'd like to see what Dr. Harley's opinion is on this. I don't remember reading anywhere that people without children should just end their M after an A. Saying this to a new poster removes hope for them.

2. Marriages with kids are worth the attempt to save but not at the expense of rights as a father or parent. By this I mean that a BS needs to make sure they are protected and are ready to fight the legal fight if necessary. I followed a path of appeasement and a mistaken belief that I was in a “unique” situation and I gave away everything. It cost me dearly. I don’t want other betrayed spouses here to suffer the same fate.
Here's the thing: you followed a certain path that ended up not being in your best interest while not following MB concepts for ending the adultery. It's good to let a poster know that they should find out what their legal rights are, while following MB concepts for ending the adultery.

3. I believe in strong legal defensive action while applying MB Plan A/B. Mortarman did this and saved his marriage, but did a great job of protecting himself from losing custody of his children. Many here criticize legal action by a BS when a WS is rolling the ball in that direction. I believe you fight fire with fire, but many say that’s not in the MB spirit. Too many men lose custody because they are under the delusion that the WW will “wake up” and that this is a phase she’s in.
Yes. We advise posters to understand that their WS is in a fog. I can't count the number of posts I've read, explaining to BS's that their current adulterous spouse is not capable of 'waking up'.

I was one of those. I don’t want a father to fall into that trap.
I haven't seen anyone say that protecting your legal rights isn't in the MB spirit. Can you point me to those posts?

4. Each marriage needs to be taken by its own merits.
Yes. This is exactly why a M shouldn't end just because there are no children. It needs to be taken by its own merits.

If a person is married to a serial cheater or to someone with DEEP psychological scars, then the odds of any plan succeeding are low. If there are no kids in the equation, why stick around to rescue that kind of damaged person? Life is too short for that.
Serial cheaters who show no remorse are obviously poor marriage material, and it probably is in the BS's best interests to leave that situation. I don't think anyone has said otherwise. However, I've seen way too many posts advising newbies who are younger or have no kids to just walk away from the M. Their BS may well be salvageable. That can't be determined from one or two posts.

5. I love seeing a BH either stand up for himself legally and succeed there or implement exposure and Plan A/B so effectively that an affair is killed. Humbled is a great example of that and PSUBIKER did a great job protecting his legal rights.
I haven't seen Humbled since we advised him about exposure and no contact. The last I heard, his WW was still in contact with her OM. Am I missing a post?

6. Some of us were married to really messed up people. I was devastated to lose my marriage and my wife, but leaving me was one of the best things she ever did. I was freed from taking care of an overgrown child with deep psychological scars. Sharing this doesn’t counter MB. It simply provides a BS with a story of someone who moved on with life and was grateful that the previous marriage didn’t work because it was a life sentence had she come back. I’m glad she never did. When a BS is in the depths of despair and depression, it helps to hear stories of personal recovery and some reassurance that divorce is not the end of the world.
Your sitch is a good one for a BS to read, but not in the context of advising them to immediately dump their spouse because 'here's what happened to me, therefore it will happen to you.'

Again, I believe in MB as a means to recover a marriage, but the issue of infidelity is so complicated that dismissing alternative views is shortsighted. I think MB works when normal people stray. I don’t think any plan works when a person is so psychologically flawed that they get absorbed in their own little narcissistic existence which will never be changed until that person seeks help for him/herself.
IMO, you are brushing WS's with far too broad a brush. Not all waywards are psychotic. Who dictates who is flawed beyond redemption? ALL waywards are absorbed in their little narcissistic existence! And, like all good addicts, they usually need help overcoming that. MB explains the best path to follow in order to do that. IMO.

My dad was a serial cheater. He has cheated on everyone he’s been with. My mom is with a good man now. Why would I want her to expose herself to being let down again if she were to ever return to my father? What do you tell a BS who has an ex return years later and they started to move on?
This is your mother's sitch, and good for her to have found a place of peace and happiness in her life. She's made her decision. I don't see where she needs to be told anything.

Even SH doesn’t advocate saving all marriages. So diverse viewpoints aren’t bad to have.
That's correct. My point is that it is a dangerous tack to take, making the pronouncement to a poster who is newly arrived that they need to dump their spouse because they don't have kids.

Dr H has already said what he would do if Joyce would betray him, he would divorce her.

He knows what the program entails, knows how well it works and yet his stated position is that he would divorce his wife if she's unfaithful.

Having experienced an unfaithful wife myself, I would NOT attempt to use MB to recover from an unfaithful wife again. I use MB to work on my marriage, but I would not advise anyone to save a marriage to an unfaithful spouse given my experience with such an experience.

If someone doesn't respect me enough to honor their vows and tell me in clear, unambiguous terms they are not happy, then I don't want them on my team.
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
Dr H has already said what he would do if Joyce would betray him, he would divorce her.

He knows what the program entails, knows how well it works and yet his stated position is that he would divorce his wife if she's unfaithful.


Dr Harley has said that most people say they will divorce their spouse but when it really happens they change their mind. He doesn't know how he would feel if it really happened.

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
One of the most remarkable discoveries of my career as a marriage counselor is that marriages can thrive after infidelity. I would never have guessed it, based on my own reactions. My wife, Joyce, let me know early on that if I ever had an affair, she would not divorce me, she would KILL me (maybe that's why I have taken such extraordinary precautions to avoid it). My own reaction to an affair by Joyce would be as drastic. But I wouldn't kill her, I'd just never see or talk to her again.

That's the way almost all couples feel about infidelity before it actually happens. They can't imagine living with someone who's been unfaithful. But what people think they will do, isn't what they usually do in this case. Surprisingly enough, after the dust settles, most couples try to reconcile.

here

Even so, it is entirely a personal decision whether or not to save a marriage after an affair. With 2 interested parties, it is very possible to achieve a happy, romantic marriage after an affair. MANY people here have done so. So when people come here for help and WANT to save their marriage, we can show them how to do that.

Quote:
I use MB to work on my marriage, but I would not advise anyone to save a marriage to an unfaithful spouse given my experience with such an experience.


But they are not here for your personal experience. People come here for help saving their marriages. And that is what we have to offer.
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
Dr H has already said what he would do if Joyce would betray him, he would divorce her.

He knows what the program entails, knows how well it works and yet his stated position is that he would divorce his wife if she's unfaithful.

Having experienced an unfaithful wife myself, I would NOT attempt to use MB to recover from an unfaithful wife again. I use MB to work on my marriage, but I would not advise anyone to save a marriage to an unfaithful spouse given my experience with such an experience.

If someone doesn't respect me enough to honor their vows and tell me in clear, unambiguous terms they are not happy, then I don't want them on my team.


Maybe because he knows that they are living his own successful program, so if she strays there's no path for recovery for them? I mean, where would the founder of MB go, right?

I would never advise a poster to end their M, or save it, based on my experience. I would advise them within the context of their experience, and what their goals are.

FWIW, I would use MB to save a M. Once. If my H were to be unfaithful to me again, I would have to leave him. Because where would we go to recover the M? We're already at MB and using the concepts (quite successfully, I might add)! Once is enough. That's enough pain for one person to bear.
Quote:
1. I don’t believe a short marriage with no kids and adultery involved is worth saving. There’s too many people in the world to put up with this kind of abuse, IMHO.


I believe Dr. H actually agrees with you on this...I know it's often recommended around here that if a BS has no children and it's a short marriage that they should run for the hills.

However I have posted to BSs who are in this sitch because they DO want to try to save the M and that is their prerogative and they have gotten plenty of help here on MB.
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
I believe Dr. H actually agrees with you on this...

I don't know Dr Harley's views on this, but I have read a few posters who are coaching with STEVE say that he told them that they should be aware that the WS is unlikely to go back to the marriage. The absence of kids makes it particularly hard to pull back the WS who has left home. However, Steve will still help them if they want to try.

He is reputed to have said the same about the prospects for Plan B where there are no kids, or they have flown the nest: Plan B is unlikely to work.

Having read this (from other posters about their coaching, not in print from Dr Harley), I have conveyed this message to new posters. I try to do so carefully and not bluntly state that they have no hope in hail and should have had kids rather than being self-centred!

Some advice is hard to hear, but should still be given if it's based in the Harley's experiences with coaching.
I think the best way to go about it is to present the information we have: what recovery takes, it's dangers and pitfalls, the struggles and hurdles to overcome. We should give an accurate portrayal of the path ahead and let the spouse decide what course of action is best to take and then provide them with advice based on that decision.

So telling someone without kids and a short marriage or a marriage to a serial adulterer what their particular difficulties will be is essential. It is up to them to decide their path.

I think an excellent demonstration of this is Gerkaguard's story. Early on he wanted recovery. Those posting to him to cut his losses were a distraction and hindrance to him because that wasn't the path he wanted to walk at that time. After a time, however, he decided to change his path. Reconciliation no longer became desirable, and so the tone of his advice changed to meet his needs.

So I guess - at least for me - it is important to lay out the knowledge and experience I have for someone else so they can get as clear a picture of their options as possible and allow them to chose what they want to do. Then advise them on how to attain that goal (which may include giving advice that someone doesn't want to hear but is necessary to achieve their desired goal). If the goal shifts, then the advice shifts.
The key is two interested parties, and based on what Dr H has said and what Steve told me working with me, winning an unfaithful wife back is nearly impossible.

So having workrd the program with the professionals to the typical outcome with a wayward wife, my advice still stands.

I might give about 10 milliseconds for a wayward wife to confess, repent and start calling Marriage Builders before I threw her out of the marital home based on what I know now.

Anything short of that constitutes a dis-interested party. I'm not interested in working with someone not motivated to be there and build a marriage.
I always find it interesting when people say this about WW. I often wonder then why DrH chose the story of Sue and Jon to put in his SAA book. I know that it is said that it is HARDER for a WW to come back but it isn't IMPOSSIBLE.

I also agree with Vibrissa that we should gear our comments to what the poster actually wants. If they don't want to save their marriage, then help advise that. If they want to attempt to save their marriage advise that, but using MB techniques and principles. Stick as closely to what you believe MB to say for that sitch. If you are wrong, you will have learned something through the discussion. When you are right, you will have helped a lot of people, not only the poster you posted to.
Originally Posted By: Scotland
I also agree with Vibrissa that we should gear our comments to what the poster actually wants. If they don't want to save their marriage, then help advise that. If they want to attempt to save their marriage advise that, but using MB techniques and principles. Stick as closely to what you believe MB to say for that sitch. If you are wrong, you will have learned something through the discussion. When you are right, you will have helped a lot of people, not only the poster you posted to.


I totally agree.
there is a great gulf between possible and typical outcome. Since it's dependant upon two who are interested, the typical outcome is failure.

After all, would someone interested in building a better marriage choose to have an affair?

Of course not.

The program requires TWO interested and willing to work partners.
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
there is a great gulf between possible and typical outcome. Since it's dependant upon two who are interested, the typical outcome is failure.

After all, would someone interested in building a better marriage choose to have an affair?

Of course not.

The program requires TWO interested and willing to work partners.


I believe that it is POSSIBLE that someone interested in building a better M could choose to have an A....Maybe they did not realize it was possible to save a M that they felt was in the dumps...but MB shows that it is very possible.
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
there is a great gulf between possible and typical outcome. Since it's dependant upon two who are interested, the typical outcome is failure.

After all, would someone interested in building a better marriage choose to have an affair?

Of course not.

The program requires TWO interested and willing to work partners.


I agree it takes 2 interested parties to recover from an affair, but Dr Harley has stated that 65% of marriages don't end in divorce after an affair. Its not impossible to win back a wayward wife. Happens often around here. Dr Harley sure doesn't call it "impossible" and that hasn't been my experience on this board.
Really? That's funny becquse everything I've read and experienced personally with respect to wayward wives is the she has already emotionally divorced her husband long before her affair. She simply hasn't yet informed him of his status.

That's not the actions of someone looking to build romantic love with her husband.

The BH has little chance as long as she remains closed to him, and only a small minority open up to their husbands, including those like me who applied MB under the direction of Steve Harley
what is the breakdown of clients? Probably similar to the forum here, about 10 to 1 women to men.

I'd be shocked If 65 percent of BH avoided divorce. I'd be shocked if 6.5 percent of BH sucessfully avoided divivorce.
My Mom left my dad and moved in with her OM. I did not know about MB at the time. My Dad got his "wake up" and decided he would try to win my Mom back. Well, nearly 2 years later, she came home. They still aren't using MB, but I would gather that they would be much better off if they did. THAT is MY experience with a WW. It's only ONE, but it MOST DEFINITELY shows that it is not IMPOSSIBLE.
Quote:
I believe that it is POSSIBLE that someone interested in building a better M could choose to have an A....Maybe they did not realize it was possible to save a M that they felt was in the dumps...but MB shows that it is very possible.


I believe it is possible that two people can get married, settle in, and let things get...boring. I believe affairs can happen in these situations. I believe that a WS can wake up after exposure and realize that what they have is important to them and that they want to save it. I believe that they often don't know how.
That's why I believe we need to presume this scenario before we tell them to leave the M.
again, I said nearly impossible and citing anecdotes of atypical results does't chane tge typical outcome.

Boarding my plane enjoy
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
Really? That's funny becquse everything I've read and experienced personally with respect to wayward wives is the she has already emotionally divorced her husband long before her affair. She simply hasn't yet informed him of his status.

That's not the actions of someone looking to build romantic love with her husband.


But it is not the pre-affair attitude that leads to recovery. Its what happens AFTER the affair ends that counts.

Just because a wife checked out of the marriage before the affair doesn't mean she can't check back IN. I have seen hundreds of such recovered marriages on this forum myself over the years. We have several such marriages that are currently posting. [several are WW's themselves who came here looking for help]

Dr Harley has never said that these affairs are impossible to recover from. It is not impossible at all.
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
what is the breakdown of clients? Probably similar to the forum here, about 10 to 1 women to men.


I would say its more like 50 - 50 on the forum. We seem to have a ton of wayward wives lately who come seeking help for their marriages.

Quote:
I'd be shocked If 65 percent of BH avoided divorce. I'd be shocked if 6.5 percent of BH sucessfully avoided divivorce.


I have no idea what the statistics are when broken down by the gender of the cheater. But anecdotally, I know that a BH has as much chance of recovery as a BW based on my experience on this forum..

I will tell you something else I have observed, EE. Men who don't recover their marriages after an affair tend to be very cynical and disbelieving about the odds of marital recovery for others. They naturally paint reality with their own bad experience and tend to see things in a very negative, unrealistic light. And this applies to men who stay married in terrible marriages. Very cynical...
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
again, I said nearly impossible and citing anecdotes of atypical results does't chane tge typical outcome.

Boarding my plane enjoy


But even those that fail...GENERALLY, don't regret trying. They may have regrets or even lost more custody, money, etc. in the ensuing divorce...but GENERALLY, they FEEL better about themselves for having made the effort.

There is honor in seeking recovery.

For most, there is self-respect gained in seeking recovery.

AND...

They just might save their marriage regardless of the percentages that NO ONE can predict at the outset.

I saved my wife from the clutches of an entrenched seemingly insurmountable adulterous affair and, in the end...WE saved our marriage.

regardless of your anecedote...it happens.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I have spoken on the phone over the years with BH's that ended up divorced and not one of them, yet...has regretted their MB efforts even when they lost A LOT in the eventual divorce.
EE, I don't intend on going around and around this again with you. My points are still valid that there is NO HARD EVIDENCE from DrH that states that a WW will NEVER come back. We have seen it over and over again(and I haven't even been here a year yet). I even mentioned that I often found it interesting that DrH used a WW as the example in SAA. Even while I was reading SAA for the first time, I thought, "Huh, he used an example of a woman in a PA and a man in an EA when in my RL experiences, I would have seen the opposite. I wonder why he did that?" I then come on here and see that there are not really gender specifics other than the amount of time spent in plan A.

It was mentioned previously that it could be the BS's gender that more directly affects our view on this board. In a more general way, BHs tend not to be looking for a way to save their marriage on a website about MB(a pure generalization, there are MANY men posting on this site and to this very thread who go against this). They may even try to go it alone(as in the case of my father). Whereas many women discuss ways to fix things in their lives and a website such as this would be an extension of the support they have IRL. Who knows? Well, DrH is the only one that could tell us for sure which way his numbers weigh.

In my experience however, I don't see any advice from DrH that says, "If you are a BH, give up, it's over." I think it's worth a try no matter what gender you are. JMHO
It's a little off topic, but I have to say I am very thankful that DH didn't decide I was a lost cause.
Originally Posted By: lurioosi2
It's a little off topic, but I have to say I am very thankful that DH didn't decide I was a lost cause.


I think that's about as 'on topic' as you can get. smile
Originally Posted By: Scotland
EE, I don't intend on going around and around this again with you. My points are still valid that there is NO HARD EVIDENCE from DrH that states that a WW will NEVER come back.

So far, you are not going around and around with me. I never said never. I said it was so rare (nearly impossible were my exact words) that to me, it's not worth pursuing.

So if you want to take exception with me, then please, you and the others read and understand what I'm saying and don't distort it to mean something I never said.
Originally Posted By: Scotland

We have seen it over and over again(and I haven't even been here a year yet). I even mentioned that I often found it interesting that DrH used a WW as the example in SAA. Even while I was reading SAA for the first time, I thought, "Huh, he used an example of a woman in a PA and a man in an EA when in my RL experiences, I would have seen the opposite. I wonder why he did that?" I then come on here and see that there are not really gender specifics other than the amount of time spent in plan A.


Could be any number of reasons. Why does Dr H tell guys in the letters about their wives leaving that it may be too late? Because he knows there is a time where it's too late to entice the wayward wife back.

Likewise, my anecdote is just as valuable as yours. I've seen dozens of men, good men, betrayed and their wives never looked back, just like my ex wife.

So we can trade anecdotes, or we can see if we can find real numbers.

I'd like to hear from Dr H of how many who come to him to win back a wayward wife, what percentage successfully marriage build?

Anything else is speculation, no matter which side of the issue one sits.
Originally Posted By: Scotland


It was mentioned previously that it could be the BS's gender that more directly affects our view on this board. In a more general way, BHs tend not to be looking for a way to save their marriage on a website about MB(a pure generalization, there are MANY men posting on this site and to this very thread who go against this). They may even try to go it alone(as in the case of my father). Whereas many women discuss ways to fix things in their lives and a website such as this would be an extension of the support they have IRL. Who knows? Well, DrH is the only one that could tell us for sure which way his numbers weigh.

In my experience however, I don't see any advice from DrH that says, "If you are a BH, give up, it's over." I think it's worth a try no matter what gender you are. JMHO


The thing is, I have the experience. Maybe I'm cynical, but remember, I'm the one who actually spent my money with Steve Harley, and while I agree it's a great program to build a marriage, and it's how marriages should be run, I would not tell someone to try to win back a wayward wife.

I wouldn't talk them out of it either. I'm answering as if someone asked me, "If you were in my shoes, what would you do?"

I don't pretend to know it all, or to know the best answer.

If a friend came to me and wanted my advice on how to win back his wayward wife, I'd point him here and tell him it's a tough journey.

But if he asked me what would I do, I'd tell him I'd cut her from the team.

It depends on how the quesiton is asked. If I'm not asked for my advice on how to proceed, then I'm not going to tell someone what to do. They have to decide.

For me, having experience on wayward wife who never once joined a call with Steve Harley, I wouldn't waste my time on another wayward wife, period.
I think I have good reason to be cynical. After all, my church blamed me for my wife's affair and wouldn't approach her.

The courts don't care. If a wife cheats, it doesn't impact custody or property settlement.

I have my own personal experience, as well as that of some friends, and it's universally the same, once she's gone, she's gone.

So yeah, I'm cynical for good reason. The cynicism isn't against Dr H's program, it's against people.

I've lived too long and been betrayed and abandoned by too many folks throughout the course of my life to trust many or be willing to trust again if that trust is betrayed.

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
what is the breakdown of clients? Probably similar to the forum here, about 10 to 1 women to men.


I would say its more like 50 - 50 on the forum. We seem to have a ton of wayward wives lately who come seeking help for their marriages.

Quote:
I'd be shocked If 65 percent of BH avoided divorce. I'd be shocked if 6.5 percent of BH sucessfully avoided divivorce.


I have no idea what the statistics are when broken down by the gender of the cheater. But anecdotally, I know that a BH has as much chance of recovery as a BW based on my experience on this forum..

I will tell you something else I have observed, EE. Men who don't recover their marriages after an affair tend to be very cynical and disbelieving about the odds of marital recovery for others. They naturally paint reality with their own bad experience and tend to see things in a very negative, unrealistic light. And this applies to men who stay married in terrible marriages. Very cynical...
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
I have my own personal experience, as well as that of some friends, and it's universally the same, once she's gone, she's gone.


I understand you have reason to be cynical but you don't have reason to paint everyone else's experience with a broad brush to match yours. There are many, many recovered former wayward wives on this forum - now and over the years - who recovered their marriages, so it can't be said it is impossible or universally the same as your experience. Its not the same.
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
[I'd like to hear from Dr H of how many who come to him to win back a wayward wife, what percentage successfully marriage build?

Anything else is speculation, no matter which side of the issue one sits.
.


I agree it is speculation. You have personal experience that leans one way, but those of us on this board have evidence that using this program can be effective. Not a guarantee but obviously enough to negate your claim that it is "impossible." There are too recovered marriages here to support such a label.

You can email Dr Harley and ask him at: jharley@marriagebuilders.com
EE,

I guess we must be an anomaly since when confronted my wife said she was sure she wanted a divorce.

Now she helps me teach this stuff to other couples.

You're right that many women have already checked out of the marriage before beginning an affair, but that doesn't preclude changing her mind. Most women are serial monogamists, but they can go back as testified to by the number of affairs we see around here with past boyfriends. Most haven't really chosen to end the marriage prior to meeting their new love, simply decided to give up investing in it. The less they invest, the less they feel they are losing until they care not one bit what happens to the marriage.

In a case where the WW has checked out the first milestone for the BH is to have her become unsure of what she wants to do. If she is conflicted about leaving, he's already ahead of where he began in most cases.

Those women who are just "fooling around" or not really intending to end the marriage (not an exit affair) are often persuaded by simple confrontation. Those who have fallen in love by accident are harder to win back but still doable with a clear plan of action.

Those who decided the marriage was over BEFORE even looking for a new man and now having found him are harder, but not impossible and I would guess that even some of those return home when the affair comes to a thunderous end.

Which is why Plan B follows Plan A with its waiting period to give the affair enough time to implode or become an anomaly or outlier.
*I* was once a newbie.....I came here AFTER reading SAA (a very important step in fighting infidelity....it is the instruction manual, after all... grin) .

The reason I joined was seeing everyone else's experiences. I saw I wasn't unique, my feelings weren't unusual, and that many were in the same boat as I. Even more important, I would come to learn, was there were others more "experienced" in following the "Plans" who could help guide me on my own journey. Even better was the fact that their journey's were in these very pages. While Dr. H's methods and PLANS are the pathway, it does no good to discount peoples experiences following them. This is, after all, what you find on these boards.

Not everyone has had the desired results following those PLANS and that's okay too. Even Dr. H doesn't claim that following Plan A or Plan B will end an affair. Its good as a "newbie" to know of the results, be it good, bad, or ugly.

THANKFULLY, I had a great group of supporters during my ordeal. Most of which HAD followed Plan A and B with mixed results. I cherished then and today, each and every one of those people and their experiences......for without that, I wouldn't be where I am today....in RECOVERY

Not
Originally Posted By: Mark1952
EE,

I guess we must be an anomaly since when confronted my wife said she was sure she wanted a divorce.


I think you and your wife are an anomaly.

Or are you trying to simply convince me that I'm not the man you are?
Originally Posted By: Mark1952


Now she helps me teach this stuff to other couples.


That's great. Too bad she wasn't around to lovingly confront my ex-wife and deliver the lesson when she was moving out three weeks after giving me the ILYBINILWY speech.
Originally Posted By: Mark1952


You're right that many women have already checked out of the marriage before beginning an affair, but that doesn't preclude changing her mind.


Nor does this program ensure you will be able to change her mind either. One can always try. My question is what is the TYPICAL success rate with ONE spouse initially engaged?
Originally Posted By: Mark1952


Most women are serial monogamists, but they can go back as testified to by the number of affairs we see around here with past boyfriends.


I agree with that part.
Originally Posted By: Mark1952


Most haven't really chosen to end the marriage prior to meeting their new love, simply decided to give up investing in it. The less they invest, the less they feel they are losing until they care not one bit what happens to the marriage.


And it's at that point they are having the affair. When they simply don't care anymore and have already emotionally divorced their husband. What you are describing is the stealth emotional divorce.

Since she's not been open and honest with her husband about how she feels, and that would be part of not investing in the marriage as you describe it, then he has no idea that anything is wrong. Usually until it's too late.

In my case, and from what I've read, when she is at this part, when you ask her how she's doing, she'll say fine, but really she's lying to you because she's already closed. The best way to avoid sharing her feelings is to simply tell you what she thinks you want to hear, that she is OK.

Originally Posted By: Mark1952


In a case where the WW has checked out the first milestone for the BH is to have her become unsure of what she wants to do.


That's a big if. I don't think most are unsure. Seems from the stories I've seen here, they pursue getting away with abandon, without looking back.

Sure, we have some who've looked back. But again, I think that's the minority, not the majority.
Originally Posted By: Mark1952


If she is conflicted about leaving, he's already ahead of where he began in most cases.


And if not, then he's getting further and further behind, regardless how excellent his plan A might be.
Originally Posted By: Mark1952


Those women who are just "fooling around" or not really intending to end the marriage (not an exit affair) are often persuaded by simple confrontation. Those who have fallen in love by accident are harder to win back but still doable with a clear plan of action.


Again, possible is only meaningful when compared to probably. Many things are possible. It's possible to win the lottery, but most folks don't win it.

Yet I can be 100% truthful and say, "You can win the lottery." But until the numbers are presented regarding the odds of winning, then one cannot make a determination of the effort to play is worth the cost.

Same goes for winning back an unfaithful wife. Given what I've seen, the odds are not worth the expended effort.

Those who win do win big, I don't deny that.

But everyone else loses, and in this case, it's more than just losing a buck, the BH loses big. Well, he may ultimately win as he's no longer married to an emotionally abusive wife that failed to value him or her own vows. But even that typically comes at a high financial cost, not to mention losing daily access to his children.

If his wife was a Stay at Home mom, unless she's doing something actually illegal, he's going to be a visiting dad in most courts. She has to be doing drugs, having an affair with a sex offender, or something of that sort to lose custody of her children in most jurisdictions.

Sure there are those who do, but they are typically the ones who try to kill their soon to be ex-husband, or are one of the above mentioned types.
Originally Posted By: Mark1952


Those who decided the marriage was over BEFORE even looking for a new man and now having found him are harder, but not impossible and I would guess that even some of those return home when the affair comes to a thunderous end.


Again, I never said impossible. I said NEAR impossible given that I believe that both this is the typical wife who walks away and has her affair, AND that once they've chosen that course of action, many feel compelled to stay the course.

Add in a family and friends who back the choice, such as having the OM in their home for holidays while their daughter is still married to the BH, and their network of Sex in the City, or today it would be Eat, Pray, Love fan friends who are cheering on their affair, and it's a lost cause.

Combine it with churches who won't get involved (like mine) and add to that the blame of the husband by the church of the wife's behavior, and again who is really supporting the marriage?

Oh, and add in that she believes not only is her husband the cause of all her unhappiness, but she also believes that she'll not lose her children, get child support, perhaps spousal support, and there are few things that push working on the marriage into the positive column for the typical WW looking at the +/- of her marriage.

It will appear to the typical WW that there are more +'s on the "divorce the bum" side than on the he's worth having around side.

She can have his money, and his kids, without actually having him, so why bother with the hassle of meeting his needs, when she can get her financial needs met through a court order and still have her lover.

Originally Posted By: Mark1952


Which is why Plan B follows Plan A with its waiting period to give the affair enough time to implode or become an anomaly or outlier.


That assumes the WW will even let the BH meet any needs. From what I've read, the typical behavior is that of my XW. Give the ILYBINILWY speech, ask him to move out or move out, and never look back.

Plan A does no good if the WW is not around to observe plan A. The plan B doesn't really matter at this point because she's already effectively plan B'ed her BH by closing him out.

It comes down to will she look back, and frankly, given my experience, I don't have the confidence to believe that most women who would choose to do this would look back.

I think it's a very rare women who will drop the atomic bomb of infidelity on her marriage and then look back.

They do exist, so successes are out there. But I still believe it's a very rare outcome.

I believe the percentage of men who've worked the plans here to a recovered marriage is smaller than the percentage of men who ended up with a recovered marriage.

It would be interesting to see Dr H break down the numbers. How many men have come to him with an unfaithful wife, and what percentage of those men today have a recovered marriage.
The plan for the wayward walk-away wife is described here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5012b_qa.html

The readers digest summary. If she won't look back, then wait for the affair to end and MAYBE she'll look back to you, if you've not done anything wrong and/or appear to care for her.

That's a pretty big maybe.

Since most women will have built support networks that exclude her betrayed husband, I think it's highly unlikely that she'll look to him as she's already accustomed to getting her needs met by others after the 6 months to 2 years of time it takes for the affair to end.

She'll probably already have finalized her divorce as well, making even less likely she'll look back to her ex-husband.
I wonder if the following is why we see BH's "rolling over" for WW's.

Dr H's own advice says:

Quote:

Don't do anything to upset her. Don't try to make her feel guilty, and don't expect her to apologize if she ever returns. Instead, let her know that you want her to be happy, and you are upset with yourself for having failed to make her comfortable when you were together. All you want is a chance to prove that you can learn to meet her emotional needs. If it turns out that you can't do it at this time, wish her the very best in life and tell her you will always care for her. You may be able to meet her needs at some point in the future.


I think some take the "you want her to be happy" to the point of self destruction. I think most husbands do want their wives to be happy. Often at the expense of their own happiness. (Not very MB, BTW.)

Often we hear about how it's wives who do that, and I do agree it happens, but it's seldom a one-way street. I think it's very rare for either a husband or a wife to marry with the intent of not wanting their spouse to be happy.

BOTH spouses doing this is the key to success in the MB program. If there is sufficient romantic love created by both spouses, then the odds that each is happy goes up.

But the wayward, is as Dr H describes, selfish, and is no longer concerned for the well being of the betrayed spouse.

When the wayward walks away, there is little the BH can do to meet her needs.

I'm simply following this advice to the extreme. If I should ever be betrayed again, I'll wish her her happiness and kick her out of the house if she doesn't come to her senses in the 10 milliseconds I'm willing to wait for her to end the affair, confess, repent and start the MB program.

That may not be the right plan for anyone. It is the right plan for me, should it ever, heaven forbid, happen again.
EE, I have to say I can see your point about some things. If I had never apologized/repented for my A.....I'd be divorced. DH NEVER would have stuck around for me to just "be comfortable with him." And when you think about the principle of not forgiving unless someone asks, and then the idea that the WS never has to apologize.....then you have someone whose never said they are sorry trying to rebuild a marriage with someone who never has to forgive them. Sounds kinda stupid to me.

So yeah, I don't know many real people who would cow for the rest of their lives to an unapologetic WS. And until a spouse apologizes/repents/begins the making amends process, I personally still consider them wayward.

That being said, if I were a single woman, I would run like the wind from someone who went on and on about wayward women and having no mercy. Not because I would plan on being wayward, but because the anger/hardness/cynicism would make me wonder how freely he could love me.
No offense, but my one of my criteria for dating before I remarried was someone who never betrayed their spouse, or divorced a spouse who had not engaged in marital misconduct.

My wife's ex husband divorced her instead of working on his marriage when she wanted change in her marriage, and essentially demanded marriage counseling.

He got the divorce he wanted and was re-married shortly after to a woman he met in divorce court.

He's extremely miserable.

Me, I'm happy. We are still relatively newlyweds and are working through the tasks required to blend a family, trying to apply MB to the process.

I made it clear that I would never tolerate infidelity. I wouldn't judge her based on the behavior of any other, but based on my experience, if she ever engages in the same type of abusive behavior of infidelity, that she would be off the team.

She married me anyway smile

She knows the standard and signed up. She's not judged based on my ex-wife or any other experiences.

I'm probably more vigilant, but not oppressively. Our lives are open books one to another, and we both like it that way.

She also knows that unfaithfulness is a deal breaker for me. I know that verbal or physical abuse like her ex-husband engaged in is a deal breaker for her.

It's openness and honesty, one of the keys required to work the MB program.

If you couldn't love me for my past, I understand. I don't think I could trust someone who betrayed their spouse. Even if that spouse was not me. I don't think I could trust someone who walked out on their spouse. Even if that spouse was not me.

I get why, if I were single, wouldn't want me, given my views. That's fine. They are free to believe that way, much as I'm free to have my deal breakers.

Some say I'm intolerant. I simply attribute it to having a personal standard. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure I don't measure up to the person standards of others. I don't take it personal.
PS, I think we agree. I've exchanged communications with waywards who think they are doing their spouse a favor by not telling them about their affair.

When I explain that as long as they've not confessed, they are still engaging in the same deception as they were when they were sleeping with their lover.

I usually get all sorts of justification. They confessed to God, their priest, their parents or girlfriends, or name anyone but their spouse. Sometimes it just sickens me how folks can justify their own bad behavior, especially with respect to infidelity.

Given my life experience, I'm not sure I could even trust someone who repented. I'd forgive. But could I trust them? I don't think so.

One can forgive and still believe, and espouse with enthusiasm, how wrong and hurtful a certain behavior is.

I've forgiven my ex-wife. I really don't even think of her anymore, other than as someone who I have to periodically deal with on parenting issues, and that's rarely.

Now I may give a passionate account about what happened. But that's more my passion regarding how abusive and hurtful affairs are, and my passionate belief that while MB is the best plan if one should choose to attempt to save their marriage, that even that isn't good enough to motivate me to want to try again, should I face another unfaithful wife.

It doesn't make my answer right for everyone. Nor have I said my answer is right for everyone.

I've clearly said how I would answer two questions.

Q1: What would you do if you were me facing an unfaithful wife?
A1: I would remove her from my team.

Q2: I want to win my wife back, what do you recommend?
A2: I recommend Marriage Builders. Your chances are slim, but your best chance is to follow this program.

That's it. I can answer each of those questions that way and not be in contradiction.

After all, if you look at Dr H, he's said the very same thing. He says he would not try to save his marriage if Joyce is unfaithful. He also says his program is the best.

Now we can argue if he really means the first one or not. But that is his public position.

If it's good enough for Dr H to say it, then it must be fine for me to hold the very same view.

To your point, EE, here is what Dr Harley says about saving a marriage after an affair:

Dr. Willard Harley from his infidelity video

When I first started doing this, I could not imagine anybody getting over it. Now, there are a lot of people that have told me that they haven't gotten over it. Thirty years has gone by, and they haven't gotten over it. But they haven't gone through the procedure I recommend, either.

The people that have gone through this procedure that I recommend HAVE gotten over it. And to me it's the most amazing thing that you can go through the worst experience of your life -- somebody hurting you in the worst way possible -- and, two years later, you love the guy, you trust the guy, you forgive the guy, you never wanna lose the guy.

To me, that's amazing.

It's what love is all about. It's what male-female relationships are all about. And when you do things the right way, you can restore a relationship even when a professional like me looks at it and thinks it's hopeless.

I got a procedure that works even when I think it's hopeless!

Even when I don't think... "I think you oughtta' leave the guy! What a jerk!"

"No, I don't really wanna leave the guy. Tell me what I can do to save the marriage."

"Well, OK, I'll give you some help."

So, you know, this is what I do. I do this for a living. I help people solve problems where I'm not always convinced that they oughtta' be solved.

But I know how to solve 'em. This is the way... this is the way do it.

If a person says "I don't want to save my marriage", I'd say "I agree! You have no argument with me! Your spouse did something that, from my perspective, is the most disgraceful thing imaginable. If you wanna leave him for that, you have my blessings."

But people have come to me and said "I want you to help me save my marriage."


"OK, I can do that, too. This is how to do it."

But it's a very narrow road, and I don't know of another way that can be accomplished. I don't know of another way. You can never see or talk to the [affair partner]* again, you're gonna go through a period of withdrawal that's, that's, that's a little bit ugly, and then you're gonna have to learn how to achieve these three goals in your marriage:

You're gonna have to learn how to make all of your decisions with each other in mind.

You're gonna have to learn how to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.

And you're gonna have to learn how to meet each other's emotional needs.

*Dr. Harley says 'spouse' here in the video, but it's obvious he means the affair partner, who most often is married him or herself
And if you read what I'm saying, you'll find it's exactly what Dr H is saying.

If you don't want to, I get it.

If you want to, here's the plan.

He's also said he wouldn't if Joyce betrayed him.

All of those are 100% consistent with what Dr H says.

I showed a bit of the back side of the envelope calculations WHY I wouldn't. They may be different from other folks. But my personal values are just as valid as Dr H's for him, or the spouse who wants to try for them.

I find it odd for those who said they wouldn't try to talk someone out of their view one way or another that so many here appear to try to talk me out of my views, which ironically mirror Dr H's 100%.

In short, I've said I agree with Dr H, and have adopted his plan for all circumstances.

I use MB to have a good marriage, and if infidelity should present itself in my marriage, I'll follow the personally stated plan for Dr H, and remove the unfaithful spouse from my team.

Can't really argue that I'm unwilling to use MB, can you?
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
And if you read what I'm saying, you'll find it's exactly what Dr H is saying.


I agree! I posted that in agreement to your post.
************EDIT**************
Telly, I see people called upon their DJs toward their spouses all the time on MB.

Being judgmental about wrongdoing isn't wrong, however.
********EDIT********
Quote:
Being judgmental about wrongdoing isn't wrong, however.


I second what Telly's saying here. Clearly something like contact with OP is a disaster to be addressed as such. But as you read in Dr. H's Q&As and articles, many situations are not disasters, but growth opportunities. I think a great example is ML's lettuce in the supermarket anecdaote, one we can all relate to, because we've all BTDT. So they took that situation from a bad afternoon and made it into a growth opportunity, a chance to really resolve some long-standing issues, in a way that they are both feeling better about each other.

I would love it if over on MB101 we could consistently help folks have the same outcome, to take those bad afternoon that everyone has, and make it a step on the staircase to where they both want to go together. Something that they will laugh at, looking back on it, because the way that they handled it in the end becomes something they can do again and again. Totally safe together. Telly, like the situation you related about the camping, how it became an opportunity to get to know each other better.

And I think that this does happen, too, that good support is also given. But man, what I had been unable to find a word for, what Telly calls scornful tone, is something that I do think we would do good to replace with teamwork, finding the common groud. I think we all agree with the Basic Concepts here.
Originally Posted By: Telly
I left the boards when I saw that some people could get away with being as judgmental as they wanted without restraint (even when meeting with Dr. H). Hurling DJ's about their spouse left and right with no correction happening from the board, or apparently still from the good Dr. himself.

I sometimes still read because I care about the people to whom I have posted for the last 6 years.

And my marriage is doing well.

I still believe in MB, and think that when you're fighting an affair, there is nothing better out there anywhere.

Edited to add: I have not been afraid to recommend additional resources to people who were struggling simply with getting their EN's met, or who were questioning a dating relationship or even in an abusive one... as long as it did not contradict MB.

But that changed.

So between the rampant disrespectful judgments and the increasingly tight-fisted moderation, I stopped enjoying posting here.

I only come back, as I said, because I do believe in MB principles, and I care about the people here. Though I find I'm reading less and less here, which is probably a good thing.

There is nothing wrong with not posting any more if you do not like the tone of the boards! I don't think this thread was started in response to people who do that. I believe it was started in response to people who deliberately undermine MB on the MB forums.

For example, there are, or have been, posters who routinely recommend individual counselling to look at past issues. Dr Harley explains why he has found this to be counterproductive. It is one thing for a poster to recommend this or other anti-Harley advice once or twice, perhaps not having read Harley properly, but when they have been directed to the links and have been told several times WHY their advice is harmful and they continue to give it, then they should be rebuked. I can see why a poster would be banned eventually when they roundly declare that they don't care about Dr Harley's views; these are THEIR views and they will continue to give them to posters in crisis.

Similarly, there are posters who appear to have been banned because they more or less accuse Dr Harley of fraud or charlatanism. They go beyond saying that they don't think a marriage can survive infidelity, and beyond saying that they have seen many affairs proceed to long marriages; they come here and argue that Dr Harley manipulates statistics or evidence to round up customers. Why should Dr Harley tolerate this on his own board?

The forums here have discussed the merits of other books or websites since it started, and it continues to do so. There have been long discussions about Pittman, Langley, Chapman and many others. People discuss the similarities between the idea of "love languages" and "emotional needs", for example. People see similarities between Pittman's advice to just leave the affairees in what he describes as a "romantic" affair alone, and Dr Harley's Plan B.

Discussing these books (they are rarely programmes or strategies) on discussion threads is hardly the same as telling a new poster to look at a non-MB programme, as if MB were not worth the recommendation.

What you call "tight-fisted moderation" is done to protect people in search of tried and tested MB strategies from the opinions of people who do not apply MB concepts. Have you never seen moderation that you approve of? Have you ever contacted a moderator about a harmful post? Did it have an effect? I have contact them, and sometimes action is taken and sometimes not. I am not always right.

I'm sure many people leave like you because they do not like the forums, but this thread is about those who stay and run campaigns against the MB-derived forum advice and against MB as a programme in itself. They have nothing to complain of if and when they are banned. Enough is enough.
Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
Quote:
Being judgmental about wrongdoing isn't wrong, however.


...But as you read in Dr. H's Q&As and articles, many situations are not disasters, but growth opportunities. I think a great example is ML's lettuce in the supermarket anecdaote, one we can all relate to, because we've all BTDT. So they took that situation from a bad afternoon and made it into a growth opportunity, a chance to really resolve some long-standing issues, in a way that they are both feeling better about each other...

As I understand it, ML and her H each thought the other was wrong about how much to spend on this item. ML wrote to Dr Harley on the private forum.

Also as I understand it, he told her that she was WRONG to try and bulldoze her H into buying something her did not agree to spending money on. It did not matter that it was only a Ł3 lettuce versus a Ł1 lettuce; if she wanted a happy marriage without LB and disagreements then she had BETTER learn to apply POJA to spending decisions, and buying lettuce in the supermarket was as important a place to start as any.

I don't know what you mean by a "growth opportunity"; as opposed to what?

The kind of lettuce that is bought is indeed not comparable to a WS contacting the OP, but it is still important. POJA makes the difference between an argumentative, miserable marriage and one of mutual support and happiness. It should be applied to all decisions that affect the marriage. If somebody on the forums had told ML in strong terms that she needed to work POJA and stop doing what pleased only her, that might have been deemed a "slap", or offensive or rude but it would have been exactly in line with Dr Harley's own advice.

I see that the complaint of "rudeness" is often made when we are told to use the MB principles and not our own armchair philosophies. For some reason, people don't like being told that.
I’ve seen BH’s end up divorced more often than not on these forums, even when they follow the plans. Doesn’t mean it’s not possible, but I get the impression that WW’es are much tougher to deal with and get to return to a marriage than BH’s.

The only ones that seem to do so are the ones that face complete exposure, family rejection of the affair, and severe legal consequences to their actions (such as loss of custody).

If those things don’t happen then I generally don’t see a WW coming back from anything that a BH can do. I support a BH’s effort to save things and following Plan A or B, but I’ve been chastised by posters when I encourage strong legal actions by a BH and am told that they are counter to MB.

But a BH not protecting himself is how so many men end up outside of their kid’s lives. They, like me, fall into the mistaken notion that doing nothing to anger the WW will increase chances for reconciliation.

A strong legal response by a BH is a big wakeup call for a WW. She’s getting called on her desire to D, but isn’t getting the fantasy Hollywood D that she imagined.

Is it MB? I don’t know what SH thinks about the matter, but he doesn’t seem averse to legal protections.

I think that legal protections can go hand in hand with Plan A and B and Mortarman is a good example of this.

Losing custody is the biggest wakeup for a WW.

As far as not having kids and saving a marriage:

Why, if someone is young and has no kids, should they be encouraged to settle for the greatest betrayal a person can suffer through when there are so many good people out there?

As I said, it is my opinion that cheaters with no kids should not be forgiven and that the BS deserves better from life and should move on. Saying so doesn’t mean I don’t believe in MB. I do. Very much so.

Too many times I’ve seen men on here holding out hope for reconciliation after WW has moved on to OM 2, and OM 3.

Why? Why sentence yourself to such torture? When kids are in the picture there is a family to save. Without them? It’s nothing more than a breakup with papers. I say that after seeing such marriages without kids fail. From my observations, there is nowhere near the emotional aftermath as those with kids.

Sounds harsh, but that’s the reality as I’ve experienced and observed it.

I respect that others have an opposing viewpoint, but I think it is wrong to shut down views you think are wrong. Debate is good. Shutting down people is not.
Originally Posted By: Telly
the increasingly tight-fisted moderation


Folks, you have no FREAKING idea how difficult it is to moderate these forums !

People complain that the edits are too tough, and otherwise "tight-fisted", and others equally passionately complain that the edits are not doing enough to stop egregious posters.



Telly, you seem to be doing both:
Quote:

So between the rampant disrespectful judgments and the increasingly tight-fisted moderation


Are you saying that rampant disrespectful judgments should or should not be met with "tight-fisted" moderation, while complaining about "tight-fisted" moderation ?????

I did not last long as a moderator. A few months.
It was too DAMN difficult, to damn time-consuming, and I'd say about 80% THANKLESS !!!
The stress was tremendous.
The moderators take their jobs seriously.

You have NO IDEA the vitriol members spew at the moderators in private.
Vicious UGLY words. Then, they send out false emails to other members to spread lies about the moderators.
It's HARD, people.
Be grateful it's not your job.
I know I am.

THANK YOU TO ALL MODERATORS WHO HAVE MORE SKILLS THAN I POSSESS.
*******EDIT**********
Originally Posted By: Telly
I am sure I don't have any idea how hard it is to moderate.

But I think whoever made the decision that moderators should have two separate identifications (one as a regular poster and one as a moderator) made a mistake.

Dr. H (and even his son Steve) may be the experts on marriage, but they are not experts on how to run a board.

If I have a "conflict" with a member of MB, I don't want to find out later that they are ALSO one of the moderators who holds power over me and my posts. It can (and has) led to perceptions that some people are attacked by moderators, while others are left free to do/post/say whatever they want because they haven't raised the ire of a particular moderator (while under their alias).

If Openness and Honesty is something we tout in MB, why are we not experiencing that ON THESE BOARDS?!



What difference does it make?
Post as you like.
Follow the rules.
Hit the "notify" button whenever you think something has crossed the line.
That's what I do.
It's NOT my place to question or to undermine any board policy decision made by the Harley family on their site.
Moderators can and DO edit each others posts.
I know for certain mods are not immune from edits by other mods.

PS Telly:

Can you answer this question?
Quote:
Are you saying that rampant disrespectful judgments should or should not be met with "tight-fisted" moderation, while complaining about "tight-fisted" moderation ?????
Quote:
If Openness and Honesty is something for which we advocate in MB, why are we not experiencing that ON THESE BOARDS?!


Because, this is an anonymous forum/board.


Openness and honesty would mean we post using our real life names.

NOT a good idea at all.

O&H as written in Harley terms, is intended for MARRIAGE BUILDING.
A reminder about TOS:


Quote:

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Quote:
If Openness and Honesty is something we tout in MB, why are we not experiencing that ON THESE BOARDS?!


Would you be as open and honest with someone you knew to be a moderator as you would with someone whom you perceive to be a regular member?

Quote:
I actually have no problem with Dr. H wanting people to focus primarily on his resources. It is, after all, his site. I just find that the loudest voices here are so offensive in THE WAY that they post--even if it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ME (so it's not about Telly wanting people to be nice to her) that I don't really want to be here.


One of the problems before the moderation of the bnoard was tightened up was the arguments that started when the "nicer" posters would "scold" the more vehement posters about how to post. IMHO, we are all adults, and nobody has the right to tell anyone else HOW to post, although we all are certainly within our rights to diagree or to point out errors in the message.

A lot of people seemed to get caught up in trying to prove how nice they were versus giving good advice to those who needed it.

Yes, some posters tend to be more harsh than others, but you know what? Even though the harsher posters might initially get the newbie's back up, somehow the harsh words seem to get the message through much faster and better. For instance, if someone tells me a bunch of advice in sweet, soothing tones, the thing I'm most likely to remember is how sweet that person is and how good that person made me feel. However, if someone ticks me off when giving me good advice, I find myself indignantly going over and over their words...until I finally GET IT!

Anyway, these arguments would become huge threadjacks, and the orginal poster's situation would be all but forgotten in the ensuing melee over posting styles. I am glad to see the stricter moderation.

And, for what it's worth...people who want a say-so over how to moderate a forum, should put their own money into it.
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Similarly, there are posters who appear to have been banned because they more or less accuse Dr Harley of fraud or charlatanism. They go beyond saying that they don't think a marriage can survive infidelity, and beyond saying that they have seen many affairs proceed to long marriages; they come here and argue that Dr Harley manipulates statistics or evidence to round up customers. Why should Dr Harley tolerate this on his own board?


I, too, have seen this and as someone that has attended the weekend forum and met Dr. Harley and his wife, Joyce along with their son, Steve, his wife AND children (Dr. Harley's grandchildren) and sat with the entire family as their guests for an expensive dinner at the hotel we were all staying at I have to say that calling them charlatans is about the most inaccurate and offensive thing you could say about this wonderful family.

In fact, I've actually seen it suggested that Plan A is part of some evil business model designed specifically to keep betrayed spouse's stuck in a hopeless situation whereupon they will have to buy more, presumably, MB books, tapes and counselling. IF THAT WERE THE CASE, then I, as a businessman and tax attorney myself, would suggest that Dr. Harley and his family's evil business model could really use some serious tweaking by doing the following:

1. Add paid links to his website (look to your left and right and notice not one advertisement...surely a profiteer that owns a high traffic website could obtain some paid links in order to fund this endeavor and bank it.)

2. Giving paid endorsements to other infidelity authors and websites (new authors are always sending out pre-copies of their books and looking for the paid (or unpaid) endorsements of established well-respected authors which they can in turn utilize to promote their books...who cares if the book is any good or not or even if it contradicts the proven MB methods/principles...take the money to the bank)

3. Stop giving away his materials and programs on his website (All authors today need a website to promote their books and marital program but why the heck would you place ALL your material there...give them snippets or teaser information but make them PURCHASE the books, CD's, and seminars to get the nuts and bolts of the program. Need content...just fill the website up with real or heck, fake testimonials of those who have paid you in the past)

4. Stop paying for a website forum where people get to discuss and implement his programs free (not only do they give away but they PAY for the bandwidth to store the enormous amount of free content available to anyone that stops by and even allows anyone to comment on it and give their advice BASED UPON THE MATERIALS, free to anyone that merely stops by. They essentially allow/support a peer counselling group on their website as an ALTERNATIVE to buying anything from them. IMO, this is absolutely crazy for a profiteer to do.)

5. Stop selling his books on the website AT COST. Surviving an Affair is a HARDBACK book that they sell for only $12.74 plus $3.95 shipping. Even Amazon sells it new for $13.59 plus shipping. That being said...at least the Harley's and his moderators should disallow me or anyone telling people on his forums that you can buy many of his books on Amazon or elsewhere cheaper...for example, Amazon has "USED" copies of Surviving an Affair for only $4.00 plus shipping OR those with a Kindle can download a copy for only $9.99 (no shipping). For having the best and one of the only true marital recovery PLANS they could surely charge more for their books, CD's and counselling. Take a look at a few other author websites and see what outrageous fees they charge for their inferior plans and you'll see that the Harley's are surely missing out on some money.

6. Stop giving FREE ADVICE on the radio and for up to an hour before taping the radio show he's paying for (he's not a paid radio personality. Dr. Harley is PAYING for the production of these programs out of his own pocket. He recently set up a 501(c)(3) fund to help offset the COST which maybe someday will allow him to build more free content for this website. Plus...some of these callers are otherwise PAYING CLIENTS (like, SickofLimbo)...I certainly would advise him to not cannabalize his own paying clients by giving them free advice.

7. Stop giving away free books to his radio guests (they are already getting free advice and they give away enough already)

8. Farm the email addresses off the forum and bookstore and use them to push/sell his other books, tapes and seminars as well as the books, tapes and seminars of those he becomes a paid endorser of OR just flat out sell the farmed email list to the highest bidders directly or via listing agencies. (I have NEVER received a solicitation email from MB trying to push me to buy more books, etc... I do still receive 10-12 junk emails PER MONTH from other websites I registered upon way back in 2005)

9. Sell many other books and snooping aids directly off his website (set up a one-stop infidelity resource store. Why limit it to just books...sell Voice Activated Recorders and GPS tracking devices ...a whole spy shop would be nice AND PROFITABLE TOO)

10. Stop insisting that your couple clients working the program and restoring romantic love only need about 6-8 sessions total. No one would think badly of any counsellor for wanting to encourage their clients to visit (and PAY) for years upon years of counselling and followup. In fact...NEVER tell a client that their past isn't relevant to moving forward when delving into their past...ad nauseum, can be so profitable.


Just some ideas for profiteering that I came up with.


Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I'd be remiss if I failed to mention that we live in a capitalistic country where it is not considered ethically wrong to profit from ones labor. These books didn't write themselves. Dr. Harley is a degreed professional that has the right to charge whatever he wants for whatever he creates. It is up to buyer to determine it's worth...and, in my opinion...his program saved my marriage which makes his stuff PRICELESS...to me.
I have to say I have never understood the "it's all a marketing ploy" accusation. I mean, soooooo much stuff - even the questionaires - are on here for free. most web sites that share ANY of their resources only give you about a paragraph to get you interested and then say: "Want to read more? just send 19.95 to...."

I see MB as the Scot-Forseman of marriage. Several years ago our school system adopted Scot-Forseman as our reading series. it is incredible. It has leveled readers, the reading book, hands on books, web resources, recordings, home-study. It is research based, written almost exclusively by educators, and our system paid quite a pretty penny for it. So naturally, our teachers were trained and were expected to teach it "to fidelity." That means USE IT ALL.

Occasionally, though, as those with children can attest, there will be a child who really wants to read...but still stuggles. In that case, the teacher will dig out her extra resources on fluency or decoding or whatever the SPECIFIC interference to reading is and supplement. Now, this teach may not substitute her own stuff for Scot-Forseman. Ever. But if Judy has trouble decoding long vowels and Mrs. Jones has an excellent resource for that, she will refer to it. In that case.....she is doing what every teacher is expected to do - tailoring the instruction to the needs of the child. Because Mrs. Jones can't go to the principal and say, "I tried teaching Judy using the system materials,but she didn't get it. She must just be dumb. Let's send her home."

I know that is one reason that one-on-one counseling with the Harley's is suggested a lot. Because sometimes people really do need more than a book and some forum advice. We have never been able to afford it, and I admit that I have occasionally felt frustrated because I was trying sooo hard, and nothing was happening, and it is hard to accept that either I am not good enough of he doesn't love me. So in that way I am sometimes a little like Judy. And after my recent Lehman transgression....I may well be relegated to that special class in the basement. That's okay. I still believe MB is the best around, and it is still the primary line of operation for me, even if I have stuck my toe out of line one too many times.
***********EDIT************
Forgot to mention...

11. They should stop giving away all their books at the weekend seminars. They've got a captive audience...give them a workbook to utilize at the conference but make them PURCHASE the real work instead of handing them a free duffle bag of free books for them to read later.
I want to add this:

My husband and I do not really have infidelity issues in our marriage, but I have had major issues of betrayal in my life.

So when this place (which had been a huge blessing in my life for the most part) became a place where I felt betrayed, I was crushed.

And I'm not alone.

*******EDIT*********
This thread has veered off to a bashing session of Marriage Builders. Let's keep in mind that we are guests here and show some respect for our host. If you have an issue with the TOS or the way the board is operated, then write the board administrator, but don't disrupt this forum by complaining about the rules of operation on the forum.

This thread is locked.

Telly ...

Quote:
Later I found out that the other poster was actually another moderator posting under an alias.


How was that information passed on to you?
By PRIVATE email, I'll bet.
By an unhappy former poster, perhaps?
Someone with an axe to friend, maybe?

Are you aware that some mods have been aggressively vilified by private email?
Are you aware that some mods have had their private lives invaded by unhappy MBers?

Maybe the same person(s) who outer the mod to you, perhaps?

It is your business to follow the forum rules.
Mine too.
End of story.
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