This is BrokenVase, Cantgetitright's wife.

If you have been reading his thread, he has been working on a timeline to rectify both lies of commission and omission that he has told over our 30 years together.

Today I found out:

...that an EA he had in 1989 (two years after we were married) was actually a PA (initiated by CGIR) and lasted for one year. Until today, I had believed it was an EA of a few months' duration that ended when the OW kissed him.

...that at his brother's bachelor party ~1995, CGIR had a ONS with a prostitute. (I had NO CLUE about this and never would have expected it. I am still numb and in shock - I'm not even able to react at this point).

...and that his 2006 PA was far more extensive than I was originally told. (With this affair, though, I never believed the original story, and still harbor doubt that I have the whole truth).

CGIR's timeline is not complete and there still may be more "truth" to be told.

The reason I finally got the truth about the incidents above is that I told CGIR that I wanted him to take a polygraph test. He did admit that the only reason he is telling me the truth now is because he knew he would fail the polygraph.

We are the poster children of false recovery.

I don't know if I will be able to overcome 30 years of anger and resentment; hurt and betrayal.

Maybe CGIR would be better off with a someone else - if he's serious about changing, he could take what he's learned here and apply it with someone new. Why would he want to remain with an angry, resentful wife forever infected by doubt - a wife that, over 30 years, he never felt he could talk to?

Maybe I could be content with being alone.

I don't really know why I'm posting - I have no questions and don't see MB principles helping our relationship at this point. It doesn't matter how O&H CGIR tries/succeeds in being; it will never be enough for me, because I will never KNOW whether or not he is being O&H.

Thanks for listening.

Hi BV
Such a sad story....

Its a suspicion every BS has that there may have been other infidelities, but to find out that most of your history together has been based on his lies must be devastating.

In truth BV I think you need to give yourself some time to process the new facts. There is no benefit in rushing into any response.

The times you had together, even when you were investing with goodwill having been lied to were genuinely as you perceived them at the time. Do not let this revelation steal your good memories from you.

You have every right and justification to divorce of course, but it seems you also have a newly contrite WH which may just give you an opportunity to build a CLEAN new marriage washed of his lies' pollution.

O&H can be very transparent and that can really help rebuild trust but your WH will need to be very humble in this.

All blessings as you make your decision.

bv, I strongly support BobPure's advice to take your H's contrition as a good sign, and to wait before making a major decision either way.

I would, though, urge you to proceed with the polygraph. I would do so even if more revelations come out before you get to the examiner's office. I think the only way you know the truth is if your H goes through with the test. It seems that many WSs believe that they are sparing their spouse the awful truth, and that once they let them know that yes, it was bad, they have been honest enough. They think that there is no point in hurting the BS with details.

You might not want to know the whole ugly truth, but if you do, he must take the test. Do you know who the women are? I don't have time to re-read your H's thread right now, but is there any possibility of contact, such as through work?

You won't know that your H is protecting the marriage with NC until you know the identities of all the women.

BV, thanks for making this post. I wondered who his wife was. Frankly, I give this very little hope at all unless your H stops traveling. That situation is only an invitation to a repeat affair and this has already proven true. This would be a tempatation in a good marriage and it is a certainty in your crippled marriage. It is not a matter of "IF" but of when.

When you are recovering from getting hit by a car, the first step has to be to stop playing chicken. By having a traveling job, he is still playing chicken with your marriage.

So, unless your lives are changed to where you spend every night together, I give this zero hope. In order to recover from adultery, the environment that made it possible has to change. That has not happened here.

Dear MelodyLane:

Some background information on us, if you have the patience for it:

In defense of CGIR, he has been unemployed for two years. When he says there are no jobs where we live, THERE ARE NO JOBS. We have historically high unemployment here, above the national average. The traveling situation he is currently involved in has been the ONLY employment he was offered in the past two years. (And for those who say he should just get "any job" - well, there aren't any of those here, either. He tried, for example, entry level jobs in every store you could think of - no employer wants to hire a former VP for an entry-level retail job). Also, no employers here will look at someone trying to change industries - they have their choice of many other job-seekers with the exact qualifications they're looking for.

With that said, I have definitively become a RENTER in our relationship. If I cannot remain married to CGIR, I want to ensure my financial security. My mother currently lives with CGIR and me because she is divorced from my father and has no other options for a safe and secure place to live. My MIL is still married to my FIL, but it seems to me (and I could be wrong) that they are living parallel lives and this is perhaps not her choice. She has limited options, as she has a chronic illness and is disabled. I will not be in either of these circumstances myself. At this point, since I am undecided about our relationship, I am NOT willing to:

1) support CGIR while he is jobless by choice (i.e., quitting his traveling job) and ineligible for unemployment.

2) quit my job and follow CGIR. I work in specialized field, have some job security with the chance for more and provide our health benefits. More importantly, however, I get all of my self-esteem from my job. While he tries, CGIR lowers my self-esteem. I am not willing to give up the only source of self-esteem I have.

3) downsize in order for CGIR to either train for another job or wait for another job. If we divorce, CGIR feels I will be able to keep our house on my salary alone. I am not willing to downsize, take a chance on CGIR, divorce and have nothing.

If CGIR wants to have an affair, he will have an affair regardless of where he lives (he had two affairs while living with me, and one affair while traveling). If CGIR want to look at pornography outside of an agreement with me, he will do so regardless of where he lives. This has already happened - he looked at far more porn while we were living together than while traveling. He looked at the OW's social networking information while home with me and while traveling.

I am DONE with do-it-yourself surveillance, checking, verifying, etc. It WASTES MY TIME and causes a great deal of anger and resentment. I could have completed my PhD with the time I used "checking" and fact-finding. If I have doubts (and I do) I'm going straight for professional assistance - PIs and polygraphers - and will act decisively on the information I obtain.

CGIR needs to establish boundaries and talk to me. If he can't, he can't, and he will be making a choice to be without me. I have told him if he genuinely wants to do "what he wants, when he wants," HE CAN HAVE THAT LIFE. I don't want him staying with me and being miserable. I will understand will walk away sadly but without argument. If he wants to stay with me, HE needs to convince ME to stop renting and buy. I will give him a chance but am not putting down any earnest money just yet.

Thanks for your feedback and patience; hopefully this background information helps put our situation in perspective.

Here is the thing you are missing, BV, spending the night apart should be a boundary. Saying that he should have "boundaries" while he travels and spends the night apart from you is like expecting him to be a "good" drunk driver with "boundaries." That is unrealistic because spending the night apart is risky behavior.

The fact is that spending the night apart is an invitation to an affair and it is much more than that in a relationship that has been poisoned by serial cheating. In order to recover from that, super duper extraordinary precautions must be taken.

My marriage is a close one that has been recovered for years and I know what happens to my marriage when my H travels away overnight for even 3 nights a week. It was very very hard on our GOOD marriage. It created an immediate feeling of detachment in my marriage.

Secondly, in order for this program to work, it requires at least 15 hours per week of undivided attention to MAINTAIN romantic love and 20+ hours to CREATE it. That cannot be done if you do not live together during the week. Dr Harley says his program does not work without this step.

But, it is your marriage and your life. If you choose to place financial security BEFORE marriage, it is you that has to pay that price, not me. I wish you the best.

It sounds to me like BrokenVase wants out but has some barrier preventing her from being the one to walk away.

BV, remember, you are morally in the clear to walk away from this right now. The choice (and the power) is yours.

Okay, you've got 24 hrs in a day to allot to things that are important or necessary to you. What you're saying here is that you don't wish to spend those hours scrutinizing your wayward's actions, and feel they would be better spent on you. I gotcha, there, sister. I understand how you could feel that way after multiple D-Days, and to be honest with you I'd probably just pack it in.

However, you have chosen not to do that. So I'd stop straddling the fence on personal goals. You won't/can't quit your job because it's related to your identity. You won't/can't agree to cover WH's back financially while he's out of work because...well, because darnit, he's healthy and needs to be bringing some cash to the table!

Brokenvase, I've got a list of potential snoops that I employ at my leisure. I don't think it takes longer to employ them on any given day than it does to take a shower and get ready for work. I'm puzzled about the snooping methods you're using. But more realistically I suspect the truth is that you don't WANT to have to employ those methods, and THAT is what is creating the anger and resentment. Would that be accurate?

BV

Dr Harley is clear that the ideal scenario for a successful marriage is one where spouses never spend a night apart, and the time they DO spend together is filled with quality meeting of Emotional Needs, while carefully avoiding lovebusters.

It is had to argue with this. It makes logical sense and has worked wonderfully for Dr H and his wife for decades !

As for me though I understand that some compromises may be required. I am working with a couple at my church right now whose marriage is in trouble largely because the H is involuntarily unemployed and their circumstances are severely reduced. There's not much quality UA time spent, nor much relaxation: the threat of losing your home is not a great motivator to sit in and do romantic stuff together, clearly. His own masculine identity is threatened by their circumstances, so I am unable to progress much MB with them. Also his wife's opinion of HIM is affected by this.

There's an old saying here in Britain : " love goes out the window when debt comes in the door" and sadly I see that borne out in many families I know.

My own job involves too much traveling and I have no doubts this has delayed our recovery somewhat. However I have sought for fully six years to find a job with less travel and have only NOW secured one that does not compromise our financial security so much that it causes lovebusters. I hopefully start on October 6th

My advice is do not submit to your circumstances as unchangeable Your WH may need to work away for now, but always keep seeking opportunities to work and live locally as an active project.

all blessings

I am curious. How do you think BV's marriage will fare if it takes her H 6 years to find a non-traveling job? Keep in mind, he is a serial cheater and has already had 2 affairs with female coworkers so far. [that she knows about]

p.s. here is his history:

DDay #1 - 1989 EA with co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 problems with concealing porn
DDay #3 - July, 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug., 2006 revealed EA becoming PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 continued problems with porn/lying revealed
DDay# 6 - Sept.26, 2010 - 1989 EA was actually PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. ~1995 ONS with prostitute.

Mel


Several things conspire against BVs marriage , Mel. I think swapping his travel for their financial security is not a great deal. CGIR had affairs on his travels because he chose to, not because he couldn't help himself. I have traveled most weeks for fifteen years, and not had an affair yet. It is possible to travel without being adulterous

If BV wants to recover they should make a plan to balance financial security versus travel IMO. Absolute immediate cessation of travel regardless of financial consequences is not a nett marriagebuilding option for many folks ime.

You're only 45. You've got no kids. Move on.

The solution is to look for a non-traveling job if they want to salvage the marriage. I agree that immediate cessation of the job will cause as much trouble as it purports to prevent, in the short term, which is why I never suggested it. But quitting the job might be preferable to a 5th or 6th affair and that is what this couple is facing.

I have no doubt his traveling jobs led to his affairs. You might not have had affairs traveling, BUT HE HAS. That was the environment in which he had his affairs. He has already proven he cannot handle himself in this environment.

Like Dr Harley has said - and it has proven true in this case - traveling jobs are an invitation to an affair. In order to recover from an affair, the environment that led to the affair has to be changed.

My thoughts are that when you get hit by a car, not once, but several times, that the solution is to get out of the road.

And then we have the issue of creating romantic love. That is unlikely to ever happen if they don't live together during the week because there can be no UA time.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.

I tried to use the boxed quotes, but couldn't quite figure them out....

MelodyLane began with:
"But, it is your marriage and your life. If you choose to place financial security BEFORE marriage, it is you that has to pay that price, not me. I wish you the best."

Right now, the greater risk for me is staying in the marriage. I don't know if CGIR can be honest with me; I don't know if I can overcome my resentment for his only pretending to have an intimate relationship with me. I am not posting in this forum to save my marriage, CGIR is. It may be best to consider me "wayward" at this point - borrowing from the script: I love CGIR but am not in love with him; I wonder at this point if maybe just "too much has happened."

Arpeggi wrote:
"It sounds to me like BrokenVase wants out but has some barrier preventing her from being the one to walk away."

Love, I guess. Fear, too. Also, love. And fear. And so on and so on.

Maritalbliss replied:
"Brokenvase, I've got a list of potential snoops that I employ at my leisure. I don't think it takes longer to employ them on any given day than it does to take a shower and get ready for work. I'm puzzled about the snooping methods you're using. But more realistically I suspect the truth is that you don't WANT to have to employ those methods, and THAT is what is creating the anger and resentment. Would that be accurate?"

Before CGIR began to tell me some of the truth, much time was spent poring over past information, trying to piece it together in a way it made sense. It was hypnotic, time-consuming, compelling and always frustrating, as I was trying to put together a puzzle with no picture and pieces that didn't even belong together. And you're absolutely right - I don't want to HAVE to do this in order to prevent being blindsided. The anger and resentment come from, as I said above, being in a relationship that was faked and having CGIR watch me struggle to solve a puzzle that he knew was unsolvable.

Maritalbliss also said:
"What you're saying here is that you don't wish to spend those hours scrutinizing your wayward's actions, and feel they would be better spent on you."

Absolutely. I want a partner who will support me in my career, in establishing a secure financial future, in personal development. I do not want a partner I have to surveil, second-guess and test.

BobPure said:
"However I have sought for fully six years to find a job with less travel and have only NOW secured one that does not compromise our financial security so much that it causes lovebusters."

If CGIR quits his job, becomes ineligible for unemployment and can't find work that allows him to contribute financially in a meaningful way AND leaves me with the choice of working seven days a week to afford our home (where my mother also lives) OR selling our house and displacing my mom, the anger and resentment from bearing the burden for his selfish choices coupled with my anger and resentment over the past will make both of our lives a living hell and any hope of creating some kind of new relationship will destroyed. "Lovebusters" would be a wholly inadequate term to describe what would happen.

BobPure also added:
"My advice is do not submit to your circumstances as unchangeable Your WH may need to work away for now, but always keep seeking opportunities to work and live locally as an active project."

CGIR is actively seeking home-based employment, but there is a recession here; he is in the demographic hardest hit and we live in a state that's taken one of the harder hits. When I say there is no work here, there literally is no work. We have files of hundreds of job contacts that did not even get a response. His only option right now is out-of-state employment or unemployment.

MelodyLane responded:
"I have no doubt his traveling jobs led to his affairs."

CGIR's first affair began and lasted when we lived together in a one-bedroom apartment and spent virtually all of our time together. Same for his ONS. And as I said in a recap of our history, he looked at far, far more pornography when we were together than when we were apart. It is 2010, the communication and information age. If he wants to have an affair, he will have an affair regardless of where he physically is.

And finally, MelodyLane replied:
"And then we have the issue of creating romantic love. That is unlikely to ever happen if they don't live together during the week because there can be no UA time."

CGIR is home every Friday evening through Monday morning. During that time, we spend all of our time together. We go to plays. We go to concerts. We play mini-golf. We go out to eat. We exceed 20 hours of UA. Up until September, I thought we were almost recovered; I was in love; I was thinking about maybe re-marrying CGIR in a couple of years. However, he didn't want a real relationship with me. I think it's important to remember that in our case, we are not trying to return to a good relationship we once had; WE NEVER ACTUALLY HAD A RELATIONSHIP. The relationship I thought I was in was/is a fiction. The person I thought I knew never existed. I have no idea who the real CGIR is - I was only introduced to him last week.

If anyone has the time to stop by CGIR's thread, please do; he's feeling bad. I know what it feels like to be losing your spouse and don't wish that on anyone.

Again, thanks for listening.

BV, Your H is a serial cheater so it makes no sense to believe that he will be immune to what Dr Harley calls "an invitation to an affair." Obviously the opportunity and the temptation for an affair will be greater if you are not there than when you are. Traveling jobs are an invitation to an affair and this forum is full of such disasters. This is extraordinary precaution 101. The damage that traveling jobs causes is not even debatable.


I happen to know from experience that living apart during the week contributes to a great feeling of detachment that takes DAYS or weeks to overcome even in a great marriage. If you don't notice it, then you likely are not close to begin with. My H and I went through this once for a couple of months and our marriage was not the same when we were apart for 3 nights a week. It led to a feeling of emotional detachment. Being apart during the week makes it impossible to meet each others needs enough to feel emotionally connected on a consistent basis.

Dr Harley addresses this his article on Undivided Attention:

here'


I completely sympathize and understand your position when you put it like this. And no one could ever criticize you for taking this stance. Just know, that if you decide to commit to the marriage, i would take a hard look at extraordinary precautions to ensure he doesn't have the opportunity to cheat again.

BV, I just bumped up a thread about serial cheaters from a few years ago. I had called Dr Harley on the radio and asked him questions about this. His response was that the solution to serial cheating was a more "global approach" meaning that much more extraordinary precautions would be required for recovery.

If you want to ask him about your particular situation, you can email Mrs Harley at jharley@marriagebuilders.com and she will read your email to Dr Harley on the radio and he will address your situation. You can listen to the radio show on your computer at the link at the top of the page.

I have to agree with Bob_Pure here. Especially in the case of BV's WH. He is a serial cheater and will cheat close and far from her. My WH cheated with the downstairs neighbor and with a coworker. I am sure he cheated when we were apart in the summers as I would visit my parents for a month.
Even if we were apart regularly for a month every year for 8 years I never cheated on my WH even if my month was spent in a country where cheating is part of the culture and it is a stereotype of that culture. Even if I was attractive, young and educated etc...
I am still extremely conviced that a cheater is born a cheater. It has it in him or her.
BV's H is a serial callous cheater and BV should move on.
Blessing

atena, I agree she should move on. HOWEVER, if she decides to salvage her marriage, recovery will be next to impossible if he travels. Traveling jobs are an invitation to an affair and I don't even know why this is being questioned on a forum full of affairs that stem from this. In order to recover, a serial cheater has to take extraordinary, extraordinary precautions to not cheat.

To say he will cheat at home or away is ludicrous. He won't cheat at home if his wife is there with him, will he? He will have less opportunities to cheat if his wife is in the same bed with him at night. But every night he spends alone is another opportunity to cheat.

I agree that every precaution needs to be taken with a SC. However, I can testify that a man can cheat on his wife and then come back home and sleep with her. My WH did that for over a year, he would sneack downstairs to the neighbor and do her and then would come back home and sleep with me all this thru the pretence that he was doing computer related work in the studio-dump-basement he rented from her.
A cheater will find his way...
blessing

Of course a cheater will still find a way, but if he surrounds himself with temptation and opportunity he is much more likely to cheat, isn't he? When a person is trying to withdraw from an addiction, they take extraordinary precautions to avoid the conditions that could make it easy to cheat.

Since when it this even debatable? Do you think Dr Harley is telling people they don't have to take EP's because they will "cheat anyway?" C'mon...

In order to have an affair, a secret second life must be created. That is very hard to do when you are in bed with your spouse every night and together for many hours a day, accounting for your time. It is very easy to do when you travel away from your spouse all week.

Just because some affairs take place while there is no travel, does not mean that sleeping together during the week is not a deterrant, it only means that MORE transparency is needed, NOT LESS.

Ok, I guess here we are talking about a repentant WS who wants to R the M not any WS.
Sure, in that case all the precautions need to be taken otherwise there will be no R.
blessing

Hi BV

I read your thread and I have to tell you that I identify with you on so many levels its not funny.
An even weirder thing is that I read CGIR's thread and have responded to him by commenting how much he sounded like my WH.
I will even suggest that you read my thread and see the parallels.

I believe that I am mentally where you are right now. I am thinking that MB principles are great and perhaps if we had come here years ago we might have been able to salvage the M, but I am starting to think that way too much damage has been done.

So I am asking myself and you, why are we still here? thats what I am trying to figure out. God knows that everything we have discovered, we are entitled to just say enough is enough?

This is yours and my dilemma as I see it? do you agree?

An update:

Was talking to CGIR tonight about getting a divorce. The subject of his affair of four years ago came up.

Last weekend, he admitted, for the first time, that the affair went beyond kissing. (He initially described single kisses; last weekend he admitted to kissing her and touching her breasts for extended periods of time in her hotel room). He also admitted for the first time taking her out on a date for drinks and making out with her in his car. I heard him say that if I asked him on a polygraph if he had touched another woman sexually, that he would fail, since he had only told me about the kissing. He said that what he actually said is that he had touched her sexually.

Tonight, he directly said that he touched her genitals and brought her to orgasm. While I always thought he slept with her, it was still shocking and painful to hear. I say he deceived me last week; he says that when he said that he "touched her sexually" he assumed I knew what he was talking about.

I'm assuming that in a few more days, I'll finally hear that he slept with her.

We're beginning to talk about how to divide our assests in a non-contentious divorce.

That's very sad, BV, but understandable. I am disappointed and frankly AMAZED that even under this level of risk he continues to manage the release of truth. Lying is more important to him than a chance of rescuing your marriage. Amazing.

Dear BobPure:

Thanks for your thoughts.

Not that this is a particularly productive line of thinking, but I've been trying to figure out what CGIR doesn't want to give up. (As of last night, he said he still wanted to stay married to me, but I just fired off some non-MB "Plan FU" e-mails, so he may have changed his mind).

I guess it has to be his position of perceived control over me OR his desire to be able to hurt me. Here's why I think this:

1) If what he wanted was to continue to lie to me and have a secret life, why tell me "truth?" He could have stuck with his original stories, or modified them to make a little more sense (one was particularly unbelievable - we refer to it as the "McDonald's story"). I was naive, in love with CGIR, had (have) virtually no self-esteem and deep down, hoped that I was wrong and that the lies WERE the truth. Additionally, the things he told me were things that I was pretty unlikely to find out independently of him - they happened years ago and I had no quantifiable evidence.

He had some great cards; he could have played this hand as a winner if he wanted to. So, I don't think it's the lying/secrecy.

2) If he wanted other women and porn - I told him many times that he could absolutely have this lifestyle - just tell me that he these were the things he felt he had missed out on and wanted to pursue and I would walk away. Why would I want to trap him or guilt him into being with me when he wanted something else? My self-esteem in our relationship is low enough as it is; why would I actively do that to myself?

He did nothing wrong with any of the women he dated while we were married HAD HE BEEN SINGLE. If you're single, you can absolutely have casual, flirty, fun-based, sexual relationships with multiple women. I believe that's called adult dating. You can do it on the internet, or you can do it in person. While opinions on porn vary, lots of porn is legal. To my knowledge, CGIR NEVER had any interest in categories of porn that are not. Bookstores/"toy" stores are legitimate businesses. I believe a single person's private use of legal porn is his/her business and nothing to be ashamed about.

So, he had a free pass to pursue these behaviors freely and legitimately. And if he had just been honest with me about wanting to, we still could have remained friends for a little while and helped each other until we got settled. (I did tell him, though, that our friendship would have to end relatively soon afterward, as I couldn't listen to the person I wanted to be with talk about the women he wanted to date, and couldn't live through the conversation where he told me that he couldn't talk to me anymore out of respect for his new girlfriend).

So, I don't think it's the behaviors/lifestyle.

3) If he was only staying with me for appearances, he blew that out of the water by telling his mother; he is also encouraging me to tell my mother and the people I work with so I can have support. He did tell his mother that our problems are his fault because he had an affair (yes, he did give her a white-washed version and I'm sure, because she is his mother, she is silently thinking that he only had an affair because I drove him to it). Everyone in his family will find out next weekend when he shows up alone at a large family wedding.

My mother is single because my father left us for an OW that he married; they live a very secure and comfortable lifestyle while my mother struggles to this day working two jobs and unable to retire. My sister's first marriage ended due to an affair and she became an OW who is now married to her affair partner. He will obviously face some discomfort when we tell my mother.

So, I don't think it's just to "keep up appearances" or guilt. The appearances are beginning to shatter, and he's already taken the blame.

4) Now I'm down to control and/or the desire to continue to hurt me. Control is shaping up to be a good possibility - I just received a financial document from him that outlined (quoting) "[h]ow [he] is 'willing' to divide everything." (emphasis on "willing" added by me). He also said last night (although, again, after my e-mails, he may have changed his mind) that he would want to date me after we got divorced. Looking for another chance to set up a relationship where he could control me, but this time, seeing where he screwed up before, set it up better, to guarantee success?

Desire to hurt me is also a contender - I asked him many times if I had ever done anything to hurt him in the past; anything that made him feel as bad as I feel now. If I did, I would be so overwhelming sorry that I don't know how I would handle it. Years ago (2004), he said I belittled him throughout our marriage, and I agree, although that was not my intention at the time (this was WAY before we knew anything about Marriage Builders and were clueless). Now, he says I didn't. So, maybe it's revenge? I can understand the desire to lash out - I lashed out last night on the phone and lashed out a few hours ago by e-mail.

However, he had enough truth to break me (and has), so if he wanted that moment of revenge, again, he had a GREAT hand. If he wanted revenge, if he wanted to see me suffer like he did, why not just go for it? He suffered with my DJs and AOs for years; I suffered with his gas-lighting and betrayal for years. So again, if he wanted revenge, why not just finish me off?

So, I don't think it's revenge.

5) Which leaves me with the possibility (which I think is the winner) that for some reason he won't reveal to me, he wants to hurt me, over time, for as long as he possibly can. By trickling out the truth, little by little, he can continue to make me doubt myself (SHOULD I have "read between the lines" about the "rubbing off" incident? Maybe I'm not a good listener/maybe I'm stupid and naive...") and hear my pain.

But what I don't understand, is WHY?

Oh well, thank you to anyone who has had the patience to read through this mess.

I need to get off marriage builders and start my day.

I am a global expert in a highly-specialized field with skills that can change people's lives. I can do a tiny handful of things that, literally, no one else in the global world can do.

During a national recession, I have a job with a little bit of security and health benefits.

I am a university professor.

I am a amateur photographer who has been in juried competitions and won a national contest with a twelve-year old camera and no instruction or lessons.

I know how to preview my MB posts for spelling and grammar. ;-)

I have great pets.

It is a beautiful, sunny fall day where I live.

Again, thanks for listening.

BrokenVase

It's not about his wanting to hurt you as much as it is about avoiding his own hurt that he feels every time you experience a new pain. That pain is excruciating and unending, so by avoiding truth for as long as he can, he seeks to avoid THAT pain.

brokenvase - have you ever looked up "sex addiction" to see if it sounds like your husband?

Addicts lie and lie and lie and lie. They don't even think about it. They lie to protect their drug (in the case of a sex addict, their drug is sex and sexual attention in virtually any way, shape or form).

Their behaviour escalates over time. They need to go to greater and greater extremes to get the same rush from their drug.

And they are 100% totally selfish and self-centered. That's because the drug controls them and therefore nothing matters but the drug.

It's no different from dealing with an alcoholic or a crackhead.

Your last post is very interesting, especially the conclusion that he's doing this to hurt you. Actually, he's not TRYING to hurt you - he just doesn't CARE if he hurts you. So he does.

Because he's an addict.

He lies and feeds you trickle truth in an effort to keep you under control so you won't leave. That way, you can continue to be part of his habit and feed him sexual attention when he's around (even if it's negative attention, such as anger over his behaviour.)

Please Google "sex addiction" and maybe look for the recoverynation website. I could be wrong, but from what the two of you are posting he sure does sound like an addict.

P.S. The Harleys will tell you that MB plans do not work where this is substance or behavioural addiction already in place. He would have to become sexually sober before MB would have an effect.

I cannot continue to post on MB in good faith without also making sure that everyone who has taken the time to comment on my thread knows that I also had two affairs, one while dating CGIR and one while married to CGIR. I have adjusted my signature accordingly.

[Confidential to CGIR: I know you don't have the same "need to know" as I do, so you may want to get out of here now, if you're reading. There's not really any new information here; just details. You already know the basic facts about the person in college and the person at my work. You will NOT read that I had intercourse with either person.]

The facts of each and a review of my wayward thinking at the time:

The first affair was an emotional affair while I was in college, during my freshman year - 1983. An older, married student showed interest in me and I responded. (Warning - wayward thinking alert) I have always had low self-esteem and was looking for validation of my self-worth from others - If THIS person likes me, I must be normal. There must not be anything wrong with me. We (OM) and I hung out, talked and he kissed me. I told CGIR about the kiss while the affair was happening.

To show CGIR that this person and I were "just friends" (and for this person to show his wife that we were "just friends") (brace yourselves, this is disgusting), CGIR and I and this person and his wife went on a double-date to a movie.

I never wanted to be with the other person - I just wanted to feel like I was a normal person, that other people were not disgusted by. (If anyone is familiar with Beck's work with schemas, I am the perfect embodiment of the "defective schema"). I never wanted to be without CGIR. I ended the relationship after my freshman year by simply not responding to this person when he would stop by - I would have my roommates say I was not home. He (OM) was obviously hurt by this and stopped contacting me.

Here is something CGIR does not know. This person contacted me three times after we were married. First, he stopped by my mother's house and asked where I was living. She did not tell him, but did tell me he stopped by. At the time, I felt sick - I just wanted the past to stay in the past. I did not tell CGIR. Then the other person found my phone number and called me and asked me to meet him. (This was years before caller ID and phone features - when the phone rang, you did not know who was on the line until you picked it up and said hello.) I don't remember what I said; I believe I probably said yes to get him off the phone but had NO intention of showing up, and didn't. I was 22 and thought the best way to end something was to ignore it and hope it went away. Again, I felt sick. The last time, the other person found the address of our first apartment (it wasn't hard - it was in the phone book, where he found our number; we don't have a particularly common last name) and stopped by. When he knocked, I looked out our peep-hole, as I wasn't expecting anyone. I saw it was him, and never answered the door. The other person could obviously take a hint, and I never heard from him again. I could not tell you if today if he is even dead or alive, and until now, to tell this story, he has never entered my thoughts, except that there is a large part of me that believes the pain I am suffering now with CGIR is my account come due, the price and interest I now have to pay.

End of affair #1.

Affair #2 happened after CGIR were married for about six years - around 1993. The OM (single) was a co-worker - the "hot" good-looking guy that all the other (single) girls wanted and couldn't get. At an evening work event, we stayed afterward, talking, and the OM kissed me. Again, for me, here was validation that I was normal; this other person actually thought I was normal enough to touch. (If my thought process seems over-the-top and confusing, just read about defective schemas - they're the story of my life. Pun intended). I told CGIR about the kiss the next day; he seemed not to care. I made it sound like a drunken (we had been drinking at the event) one-time thing. I guess I wanted to "pay him back" for his affair #1, which, at that time, I believed was just a kiss. Over the next week or two, I kept putting myself where the OM might see me (I worked late, and he lived next-door to where we worked - if he bothered to look, he would see my car, the light and know it was me). One night, OM came over and we kissed; he indicated he wanted to have sex with me by taking down his pants. I DID NOT want to have sex of any kind with the OM - I did not like him as a person; we had nothing in common and were not suited for each other in any way; I had NO sexual desire for him at all. All I wanted was the tangible validation that I was normal (i.e., not disgusting to others) - if a "hot" guy who others wanted wanted me, then, of course, I must be normal.

(Warning: beyond stupid thinking coming up). I guess at that time, I felt "obligated" to finish what I started, and had oral sex with the OM. I was also afraid that OM might physically force me to have sex (intercourse) - we were alone together in an isolated building with no chance of anyone coming by. I now realize that the likelihood of this was slim to none - he was just a regular person, not like that, and would have stopped if I insisted. I was just too stupid to see any other way out of the situation at the time other than "finishing" it. The OM did not touch me, and the oral sex lasted maybe one minute. I immediately and to this day felt like a whore. To top it off, OM said the only reason he pursued sex with me was because he felt sorry for me. (There went my whole validation gain). I continued to see the OM at work every day for the next year, and we never talked about the incident or interacted in any other way beyond what was required for work again. After a few months, OM was transferred to a new location; after about a year, he quit. Again, other than to tell this story, I never thought about him again.

(As an aside, there are a handful of unique circumstances where people who have had an affair can continue to work together and have NO feelings for one another - in my case, continuing to see OM each only cemented my resolve to never, ever, ever do anything so stupid and humiliating again). No better reminder to not act like a whore than to face the person you humiliated yourself for every day for months, in your workplace).

Again, this affair happened around 1993; information about AIDS (HIV did not exist as a diagnosis yet) was common knowledge. OM and I had unprotected sex. OM was rumored to have been promiscuous. I was tested for AIDS (negative) and now had to figure out some way to avoid having sex with CGIR for six months until I could get my re-test. (That was the protocol back then). I did so by picking fights with CGIR, staying away from home by working and just generally being as repellent as possible. CGIR brought up that we were not having sex, and I basically implied that it was because I disliked him and was unattracted to him. My super-secret plan worked (far more clever and devious than just telling the truth, of course); I was re-tested (negative) and somehow we resumed having sex. (How we ever transitioned from my obnoxious behavior back to having sex, I don't know). We were both re-tested a few years later as part of a physical for insurance purposes and were negative; I required CGIR to have an AIDS test when he was contacting people over the internet related to his pornography use in 2004. He was negative. So, I dodged a bullet on that one and did not kill either myself or CGIR with a deadly STD.

While I told CGIR about the first kiss, I never told him about lurking around waiting to see if OM showed up and having had oral sex with OM. I kept this secret for about 14-15 years. It was highly unlikely that CGIR would ever find out about it. In 2007, when we were trying to recover, I began thinking about it every day. I felt that we would never have a chance at having an intimate relationship if I kept this secret. So, one night I blurted it out to CGIR, offering him the chance to leave me. If he had feelings about my confession, he did not reveal them to me, and did not want to know any details other than: I had oral sex with OM; I had no relationship with/feelings for him; and I felt awful about it and at least learned a lesson from it. To date, CGIR has never brought it up again and has not wanted any details.

Oh, and one last thing. Once I tried to register on e-harmony (years ago when it used to be free) when I was hurt by and angry with CGIR. I told him at the time I was doing this. I wanted to lash out, and, yet again, validate myself through others. But, here's the ironic part: after I spent hours and hours filling out all their surveys, e-harmony told me that a tiny percentage of people are unmatchable, and that I was one of them. Welcome to Leprosy Island. That pretty much finished my seeking-out validation through others; not only did OM#2 think I was a loser - e-harmony scientifically evaluated me and proved that no one would want to be with me.

So, to my personal statement in my previous post, please add:

I am liar.

I am an adulterer.

I am a hypocrite.

I write in a long-winded way: I over-use the semi-colon and often use "that" when I should use "who."

And, CGIR, if you hung in there and read this, I'm really, really sorry.

Thanks for listening.

Update, for those who have had the patience to follow our threads:

We are not getting divorced and have decided to try again. CGIR is still working on his timeline, going back to childhood. I will add my information. We will go over the information again and again until we both have the same "mental picture" and understanding of our past. Then, I will type it all up; we will continue this process until we both firmly agree that this is "the story of us."

I have found that when we can agree on the timing and details of an event, the feelings (past and present)that it provoked and the event's meaning, I can then "let it go" and assign it to the past, where it belongs.

We recognize that this will take a while.

When this is done, CGIR will take a polygraph, as this is the closest thing to "proof" that I will be able to get. (If he refuses to take the test, or fails, we will end).

I don't expect CGIR to never relapse with pornography; but I do expect him to stop deceiving me. There can, of course, be no "relapses" with other women. Any future deception, we will end.

CGIR has been and is looking for job at home, but this will be a long process.

CGIR will begin IC to try to understand why he does what he does. Is he an addict? Maybe. We hope a therapist can help us find out.

Hopping back on the rollercoaster again, hoping that it is the final ride.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for the response.

I am closely following your thread, I am hoping that you find that proverbial light at the end of the tunnel.

It is saddening to see a marriage of so many years go through this type of turmoil.

I believe that the longer you have been in a marriage, the harder it is to walk away, it somehow nullifies the time you have invested in the relationship, and who wants to negate 30 years of their life? Thats just too large a chunk to toss away.

I wish you all the best and will keep an eye on your situation because I guess, if you can make it work, there MIGHT be hope for me.

BV,

Somehow, in your story, I sense that you and CGIR have been fighting for a feeling of balance in your marriage.

Only

it isn't there.

You have both been hurt by adultery, whatever the justifications.


Now, so many years later, the issues that were never faced during the earlier times in your marriage are facing you

still

only in a huge way.

I think what has happened to the two of you is that you both buried the previous affairs, and tried to "move on". The underlying issues that resulted in the affairs were never addressed.

So these issues only grew larger and more difficult.

Leading to more affairs. More independent behavior, more separation between the two of you, and more alienation of loving feelings resulted from all of this.

Now, the two of you are faced with yet more affair behavior on his part, and the ongoing escalation of his porn use.

The only way to really address things is to start over - you have to really address the underlying issues that plague the marriage. The unmet emotional needs, the basics as Dr. Harley says. O&H - and your husband needs to hit the mark on this one, because if he doesn't, you have no chance.

from his thread, he seems to understand that

my question is whether or not his "knowing" it academically, and his ability to put it into action can be achieved



SB

Exactly. And CGIR did a few good things together - financially, we are on the same page and have built a fairly secure future. We have no debt and have never had debt. Despite CGIR's job loss and 2 year (and counting) stretch of limited, non-permanent employment, we continue to live a comfortable lifestyle and save money. We are on track to pay off our mortgage before we are 50. We are able to help my mother.

We have fun together. The day before the beginning of the "great reveal," I had an excellent time out with CGIR. He said he had fun with me, too.

With SF, we finally seem to "have it together," consistently.

Many, many wives would kill for what CGIR does for me in terms of domestic support, especially for the past 2 years. He also helps me with my work, when he can, without complaint.

And CGIR has changed several important behaviors, especially in regards to SF and conversation, that have made our relationship much better for me. More importantly, he's maintained these changes over time.

If we could only figure out what an emotionally intimate relationship is, and how to have one, we'd be great. ;-)

I could be happy with being two broken people who are safe and secure with each other.

I follow your thread as well; best of luck to us both.

Schoolbus:

Thank you so much for spending your time following our threads; I've been reading these forums for several years and truly value your input.

In the past, I've always tried to help us, and CGIR. I got us into marriage counseling in 2004; I found MB in 2007; I went to IC to try to recover from depression. I required that CGIR begin posting here. Often times, my efforts were misguided and failed to produce a result, but, as CGIR concluded by looking at his timeline, I was always trying to do SOMETHING.

Now, though, should I just step back and let CGIR do this on his own? I'm happy to help, but I should be the helper, the supporter, but NOT the leader, right? For example, the book from the Arbinger Institute. It's not hard to track down and get; it took me under 30 seconds to locate it. You've strongly recommended it to CGIR twice, and he's not yet gotten it ("no time").

In the past, I would have secured the book for him, whether he asked me to or not. I would have read it myself, highlighted it for him, and brought up topics from it for discussion. I would have compared and contrasted information from the book with things we've tried before. And all this would be before I really got serious.

I SHOULD NOT do this now, right? I should let CGIR help or not help himself? If he asks me for help, for example, to get the book for him, should I do it or not?

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm trying to figure out if the way I typically "help" actually helps, or only hinders.

Again, thank you, thank you, thank you. That you are on our threads gives me a little glimmer of hope.

From reading this last post it appears then, that you have a heck of a lot more going for you and CGIR than I do in my relationship, So, go for it, focus on the fact that it is not all bad.

I am trying so hard to find the positives in my relationship, and I am having a hard time, perhaps time will help me to get a clearer picture.

I have my DD and she is a joy for me. My WH has been so busy investing himself in relationships outside of the M, that I think that there was not much left to put into the M. The fault I guess is mine for not demanding more; I believe I started feeling hurt and as a result, started to withdraw into my shell, being the selfish, self absorbent individual that he is he took my withdrawal as an opportunity to do even more.

As I said in one of my previous threads, I have been lonely for such a long time I can't remember when I wasn't, as for SF, I have none, no intimacy, nothing.

So I really have to decide where to go from here, because at the end of the day, the real question for me is, whats in this marriage for me.

So I am happy to hear that you are in a much better place than I am. Best of luck to you.

Dear Teaser:

Thanks for your encouragement. All day Friday, I "sat" with the decision that CGIR and I were getting divorced; on his end, so did CGIR, not because he wanted to, but because he thought he had overwhelmed me and everything was now too broken to fix.

Well, that decision just seemed completely, completely wrong. Today CGIR and I sat with the decision that we were staying together and working through this no matter what. For both of us, this decision seems correct and "right." We've had some good, positive conversations on the phone. We're making sensible decisions on how to proceed; for example, CGIR is coming home early and we're taking some time off from our timeline/truth work to be together and reconnect after an extremely emotionally draining weekend.

Before this weekend, I told CGIR many times that I could NEVER forgive him for what he did, and if we stayed together, he had to realize and accept that. I was 100% certain that I would never be able to change my mind, even if I wanted to. Absolutely, 100% CERTAIN.

This weekend, he told me some very hurtful things, but the more he told me, the more sense everything made; all the pieces of the puzzle were starting to come together. To borrow from Joseph's Letter, we were now looking at, talking about and working on the same puzzle. Our frame of reference was finally the same.

And this weekend, a feeling just came over me that I COULD forgive CGIR, really fully forgive him. Not yet, but if we continue on this path, it will happen. And after years of FIGHTING the past, despairing over the past and rejecting the past, I can now believe that in the relatively near future, I'll be able to separate the past from my present and begin to think about the future.

The reason I am telling you this, though, is because I was where you are now - all alone, in a shell, deeply despairing - paralyzed because I was too fearful to stay and too fearful to go. I illustrated it for CGIR once, saying I felt like I was standing exposed in a dark forest in lightning storm. Unable to decide if I wanted to be attacked by predators or struck by lightning, I was frozen in place. I thought about suicide daily for a LONG period of time; the one thing that kept me from doing it was fear of failure and traumatic brain injury. CGIR and I went on a vacation a few years ago and my most comforting thought was that the hotel had a great balcony I could jump off if any day became more than I could handle.

Why am I telling you all this? Because I never thought I could make it through, and NEVER thought we could make it together.

If we can sort through our mess which spans three decades, have hope that you can, too.

Here for you -

BrokenVase

"The reason I am telling you this, though, is because I was where you are now - all alone, in a shell, deeply despairing - paralyzed because I was too fearful to stay and too fearful to go. I illustrated it for CGIR once, saying I felt like I was standing exposed in a dark forest in lightning storm. Unable to decide if I wanted to be attacked by predators or struck by lightning, I was frozen in place." (Don't know how to do the quote thingy)

BV, you hit the nail right on the head with the above feeling. It seems there are many of us that feel the same exact way...at least I do. Thank you

I thank you so much for saying this to me.

I think that there are so many others out there who will be happy to hear that, no matter how bad things may seem, there is always hope.

I am right now just standing still, I am not even sure what it is I am waiting for.

I am waiting to see though, what WH's next move will be, I feel at this point that I cannot take on any more responsibility for this M.

Somewhere along the way he has to show some initiative. I will take my cue from there.

BV,

Do not get the book for him.

You are not his mother.

Do not take that role with him. He wants a wife. His mom would buy the book, highlight it for him and start the discussion. IF he was in second grade.



SB

If he doesn't buy and read the book, it will make you angry.


Your anger will not kill him.

It is a natural consequence of his failure to hold up his end of the work of the relationship and its recovery.

People learn by natural consequences.


I did. You did.

CGIR has had too many people holding his bike up for him, and he needs to fall down and hit that pavement HARD. It will not kill him to scrape his knees.

Trust me, he can get back on the bike.

Ultimately, he will order the book and read it.

Because you will make it important enough.

I just wanted to mention something in passing here: Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce used to run a dating service, believe it or not. They found that most of their clients didn't want to date each other, and so they worked with them, Dr. Harley teaching the men to meet women's emotional needs of affection and conversation, and Joyce teaching the women to meet men's emotional needs of physical attractiveness and recreational companionship. The end result was that many of their clients got married, although not to each other; they learned how to make themselves attractive enough on the "marketplace" that they could bring about the happy relationships they wanted, and they got married.

If an "unmatchable" person learns to meet his or her partner's emotional needs, and eliminates love busters like selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, and independent behavior (not to mention dishonesty), he or she will transform from "unmatchable" to "a great catch."

Today, CGIR went to a large, family wedding alone.

This is epic for the two of us for a number of reasons:

First, CGIR told his mother in advance that I would not be attending, because we were having problems in our marriage and it would be too painful for me to go. He also owned the problem, admitting to having an affair. In the past, he would have claimed that I was sick and couldn't go.

Second, I didn't change my mind, and CGIR didn't pressure me to do so. For once, I made a decision and followed through.

And finally, CGIR said he plans to tell his brothers the truth about why I was not there. CGIR's mother and her sister (the bride's mother) arranged to leave my chair at the table, so CGIR could tell everyone that I suddenly got sick and couldn't go. I don't know if he will actually have the integrity to do this, but it will go a LONG way in helping us if he does. I certainly don't expect him to dampen the bride's celebration by distracting and upsetting her guests with a "tell all," but I do expect him to tell the truth.

I told CGIR that today is his version of "A Christmas Carol." He is at a wedding, alone. He already lost his job, and a week ago, almost lost his home and his wife. Are these the shadows of the things that will be, or are they shadows of things that may be, only?

CGIR has the key to keeping me. The things he needs to do, while not easy, are crystal clear - no ambiguity. Tell me the truth, about events (past, present and future) and about his thoughts and feelings. Love me. Be my friend. That's it.

Can he change these shadows he's seeing, by an altered life?

I really hope so.

How did the wedding go?

BV

I have a question for you.
From reading your thread, it appeared that you were all set to go your own way and then all of a sudden you seemed to change your mind.
May I ask what was the reason for the sudden turn around?

For me I am at the point of throwing in the towel, it is all just too much for me.
Open and honest is just showing me how much my life has been a farce. It is showing me how one sided the marriage was and now that I am able to tally the years it appears that for 30 years I was the only one in this marriage.

Just like CGIR though, his family has a poor opinion of me and this is as a result of opinions being formed by them that was based on lies which CGIR chose not to correct.
I doubt very much he has what it takes to correct the impressions out there.
I am starting to die inside, he sat down and spoke the other night, I did not get angry, did not ask too many questions, all I kept thinking inside is how much of MY life has been a total mockery.
At my age,(and his) I don't really see any hope for us, there is no more love there, I don't know if its possible for us to even be friends, I don't know, I am out of my depth.

I now understand why people go out and have revenge As. I could use one right now, if for no other reason than to have a small moment in time (whether its real or not) where I can feel things that I have not felt in 30 years, even if that feeling lasts for only an hour.
If I died tomorrow it would mean an untimely interruption to a life that was never fulfilled to one half of its potential.

Schoolbus:

Thank you for asking and thank you so much for the time you are investing in CGIR and me. He will be back online on Monday, with an un-annotated copy of Leadership and Self-Deception in hand.

CGIR said he was miserable at the wedding; ergo, it went great! ;-)

The most important thing that happened was that he told his brother the truth about why I didn't attend when his brother pulled CGIR aside to ask him how he was doing. CGIR didn't give him a full run-down, which I wouldn't have wanted him to at a wedding, but he did say that the problems we are having are extensive, encompass most of our past, are CGIR's fault and (this is a REALLY big deal for me) that CGIR LIED TO ME REPEATEDLY ABOUT THEM.

I hoped that CGIR would tell his brothers we were having problems and I hoped he would make a statement taking responsibility. I expected that he might decide to say I was sick and couldn't go. But I never thought that he would, on his own initiative, tell his brother that not only had he had lied to me, but that he had lied to me repeatedly.

I've been pretty confident that I am finally getting the truth about CGIR's past, but not as confident that CGIR was going to be open and honest with me going forward and not optimistic AT ALL that CGIR was going to be open and honest to anyone else but me (in certain circumstances). I've been thinking that the best I could hope for was full disclosure about the past, a genuine attempt by CGIR to not use pornography/Facebook, etc. to fill his time and a life together punctuated by discoveries, regret and promises, until I either became resigned to it or quit.

The wedding has made me much more hopeful that CGIR is really "getting it" and that we can actually have an intimate, reciprocal relationship going forward.

(Confidential to CGIR - thanks, and LOVE YOU!)

BV

Dear Teaser:

I hope you can follow my logic here.

A few years ago, CGIR and I had a cat that was terminally ill; the only treatment vets could offer was palliative.

This cat was our first pet together and we had had her for 14 years. We discussed putting her to sleep, but weren't sure if it was the right thing to do.

When talking to a friend who had been through a similar experience, she said that I would "know" when it was time.

This was decidedly unhelpful to me, because I constantly struggled with the decision. I just didn't "know." Some days, I thought we should, other days, I thought the opposite.

Well, the day CGIR put her to sleep, we KNEW, with 100% certainty, that it was time. We were sad - devastated, actually - but we acted immediately and with NO second thoughts.

I figured (and CGIR did, too) that I would KNOW when our relationship was too broken to be fixed. Last week, when we were talking about divorce, and beginning to divide our assets, I was at a dip in the roller coaster ride we've been on. Logically, I thought leaving was the right thing to do; staying did not pass "the girlfriend test, " not by a long shot (what advice would you give a girlfriend that was telling you your story). I thought I should leave, but I didn't KNOW I should leave. CGIR felt the same way; he didn't want to leave, but thought he had hurt me too much to deserve to ask me to stay.

But neither of us KNEW we should go.

Then, CGIR stepped up and really started to tell me "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth." And I was able to believe it was (at LAST!) the truth, because, everything he was saying made SENSE. Everything - "evidence" I had gathered over the years, things I knew about CGIR, how I felt at the time - was finally fitting together.

The analogy for finally getting the truth is often finding missing pieces for a puzzle, but for me, it was more like taking out incorrect answers on a crossword puzzle. Once the wrong answer, and all the equally wrong answers linked to that first mistake, were erased, the correct answers came in one after another, all fitting together and each one contributing information to finally solve the puzzle.

And when I began to get the truth, I felt for the FIRST TIME EVER, that I actually could forgive CGIR at some point and have a relationship with him that was not stuck in the past and marred by bitterness and resentment.

But what has really convinced me to stay is that for many, many years, I struggled to see how I could possibly be special to CGIR. After all, he had his first affair almost as soon as we were married, and two subsequent affairs, including a ONS with a prostitute. How could I possibly be special to him if he could do that? Sure, he wants to be with me now, but if I were out of the picture, I could see how easily I would be replaced.

Now I feel that I am special to CGIR because I'm the first person in his life who he has told the truth to; the first person in his life who caused him to see that telling the truth is better than lying. And the events of this weekend (the wedding, above) have really given me hope that CGIR is finally starting to "get it." I also have the benefit of knowing that when CGIR gets something, he can make a change and maintain it - for example, he made one very significant change with SF about six years ago and has never wavered or slipped since that time.

We still have a way to go, because I'm still working on getting over the hurt (some things happened four years ago, but they're new to me; although they're in his past, they're now in my present), but I'm hopeful we can see our way out of this.

So, to summarize, why did I change my mind? Love. Truth. Forgiveness. Love. And hope.

I didn't think these things were possible, but now I think they are.

And I really hope I'm right.

Hi BV

Thanks for you explanation.
Thats something I will have to give some serious thought to.

Perhaps then the problem for us is that I am not getting that feeling that I am being told the whole truth.

I am not feeling like I am the most important thing to him.

We were just in a conversation and I brought up the fact to him that there had been no SF between us for 19 years but that he was out there sleeping around with everyone else, his response? you want us to have sex tonight? like real sarcastic, you know, so I told him, the last time I asked you, your response was you can't work your mind up to it, especially if you're upset, please don't offer something you can't follow through on.

No BV, I don't feel special to him at all.

Today is my and CGIR's wedding anniversary - we were married 23 years ago.

I haven't celebrated our anniversary in about four years and don't plan to in the future. Nor do I wear rings.

CGIR has mentioned a few times over the years that maybe we could renew our vows some day, but I don't think I can do that - I can't promise to stay with CGIR for better or for worse. I've been through the worst and know that I don't have it in me to do it again.

I watched a video of the wedding CGIR attended yesterday, and it was sad for me. I'm most sad when I think that CGIR can only have a faithful marriage with another woman and never with me. The thing I most wanted, I can never have with the person I want to be with.

Oh well. Hopefully we can be friends, and hopefully we can find something special, whatever that might be, we can share someday.

BV

BV

Squid took her wedding ring off during her A. She hurt her fingers in a karate competition which made them swell and she was unable to put it back on ( how convenient).

After discovery and exposure we were at lunch one day ( which was part of my plan A) and she noticed I still had my wedding ring on. She said " I don't know why you still have that on, seeing how I love somebody else now".

I replied " I promised 18 years ago before God and man when I took this ring from you that I'd love you for better or worse. This is "worse" but until the last moment that I can't be married to you any more I will not ever take off this ring".

She teared up and went to the bathroom.

She said since we recovered that it was a dagger in her heart when i said that but a motivational one.

I completely understand your reluctance to commit to your marriage, BV, and to wear the symbols of fidelity but I would advise from my own situation that at some point you'll need to commit to recovery or commit to divorce. Recovery and divorce both take commitment and right now you're committed only to licking your wounds. Entirely understandable, and I've been there myself, but just know nothing changes until your attitude does.

All blessings

Hi BV

I know how you feel, my anniversary was about 6 weeks after D Day and I can still remember how low I felt on that day. You think back to the day you got married and how full of hopes and dreams you both were on that day and then you come crashing back to the present and wonder what the heack happened.

As an update, I told WH on Friday that I feel that it is best that we go our separate ways; after much discussion he has asked (and I ultimately agreed) if we could delay separation till December.

Last night I asked him what was it he hoped to accomplish between now and December, he says that he believes that he can make inroads with me so that I can see that there is hope for us. I told him that the problem as I see it ( and I got this from your response to my question) is that I don't FEEL like he is doing what is necessary to get us on the path to R.
Yeah, he has been taking me out, and he brings me coffee in the morning, but anyone can do that, thats the easy stuff. The open and honest part of it is an issue because, unlike you BV, I am not getting the sense that I am getting the story, I don't believe I even have the first piece to start to put the puzzle together.
At several points in different conversations that we have had, he has very confidently stated that he can get us back to where we need to bee, and something about that statement has always bothered me. Well, I dealt with it last night, I told him that apparently he has me confused with the bimbos he has been hanging out there with, you don't get to woo me with the whisper of sweet nothings and then I crumble. You have to work to get me back-and it will mean hard work and from where I am standing right now, I don't see any proof that you are up to the task. I have a lot more substance than that.
I still don't really believe that he has grasped the gravity of the damage he has done to me.
The funny thing is? when we start having our discussions, he ends up having a pity party, well last night, I called him on it. I asked him, aftyer all the crap tat I have discovered about yoy over the last 5 months, where do you get the nerve to feel sorry for yourself? I am totally baffled by that and I let him know in no uncertain words, I FEEL NO PITY FOR YOU. And I went on to tell him, perhaps its this very self pity that is hampering him from understanding what has happened and what he needs to do. I have no advice to offer him anymore, the ball is in his court. Earlier, I was the one doing research, finding MB. suggesting counselling, looking up articles. I am so done with that.

He had no problems finding the words necessary to get his whores into his (our) bed, let him use the same if not more energy to figure out what to do next.

If I end up alone, then hell, so be it!!!

Anniversaries, weddings, hearing wedding vows, wedding rings...are all triggers that send a dagger through the BSs heart. Every BS believes they are the only one who feels this way about these things, but you are not alone ~ we all do/did feel that way. It's par for the course.

The good news is ~ as with everything related to recovery ~ time really does help to heal this. We're 3.5 years into recovery and while some of these things to trigger me on occasion, it certainly isn't to the extent that they once did.

I hope this gives you both hope...I also hope you know that IF you follow the MB program, you WILL recover your M.

(((hugs))) to you both, brokenvase and teaser.

My H and I renewed our vows about 2 yrs after d-day. I wasn't sure about it either, but then he convinced me. He got down on one knee and proposed, for a new marriage.

I thought that since I was on board for a recovery, that I was committed to a marriage with him. That meant that I was committed - to the vows - the same vows that I took already. And he said he felt a sense of urgency, to start over, to make this fresh and right - because it meant an atonement of sorts for him, in a way, to get things right in his mind. To hear and to say those vows again, before everyone, to do it all again, was important to him.

So I did it. He cried.

It was worth it. It made him happy, and sad, and together we began anew in a way that made things feel different.

So maybe someday you might think about it.


As for rings, I took mine off, put it on, took it off, put it on...and finally, decided


I AM MARRIED. I WEAR THAT SYMBOL. IT MEANS SOMETHING TO ME.

His affair didn't change my vows. It also didn't erase what my marriage had meant over the many decades together, and what that ring meant to me. Besides, my finger felt funny without that ring-it had a place.

SB

I took a couple of weeks off from posting to think; thank you BobPure, teaser_8, MarriedForever and Schoolbus for supporting me on my anniversary.

I finally have what I feel is the truth from CGIR. Some of the information I heard was not what I expected I would hear - some things were not as bad as I expected; other things were worse.

The good: CGIR told me a lot of things from his childhood (before we met) that made him vulnerable to embarrassment, that he didn't have to tell me.

For the past four years, I had always pictured CGIR's relationship with OW #2 as a deep, emotional relationship. I thought he loved her, wanted to be with her and only stayed with me due to guilt, obligation, fear of change, fear of what his family would say, etc. Minimally, I thought that he "loved" me but was "in love" with her and confused about what he wanted to do. CGIR had also told me at one point (in the past) that conversation with OW #2 was a "10," and (in a different conversation) that he didn't want to talk to me because all I ever talked about was "stupid sh**" (yes, those were his exact words).

If you ever saw the movie "Before Sunrise," that was *exactly* how I envisioned CGIR's relationship with OW #2. The traveling overseas together, the conversation - Julie Delpy, the star, even resembles OW #2. CGIR's comments about her conversation, my conversation, and my mental image of the two of them in this movie decimated my self-esteem and made me far too anxious to have conversations with CGIR - at my most anxious, I literally feel that my throat is frozen and I can't speak.

Well, I was very wrong. While CGIR enjoyed the "getting to know you" conversation he and OW #2 had during their first trip, the majority of their subsequent conversation was the same type of conversation CGIR would have with me at that time - he would talk for the purpose of hearing himself talk, and wait for his listener to agree with/validate his points. (Like Vincent Vega in Pulp Fiction, he didn't listen, he waited to talk). OW #2 supported everything he said, so he loved talking to her; I tried to give him actual advice, so he just talked over me, dismissed my opinion(s) and walked away when he was done. (And before anyone comments that I should work on supporting CGIR during conversation, please note that at this time, CGIR and OW #2 mostly talked about work, and OW #2 was validating behavior that led to CGIR losing his job. CGIR said that if he had listened to me at that time, he would probably still be employed).The hours of cell phone conversations were just that - CGIR venting, and OW #2 singing the chorus. CGIR also said that he did NOT like when OW 2 talked about herself - she was a financial train wreck, an alcoholic, immature, unprofessional and actually DID talk about "stupid shi**."

So the relationship I imagined, and the paragon of conversation I constantly measured myself against never existed. Four years of anxiety that continue to this day didn't have to happen. The legacy of trickle truth.

The bad: CGIR initiated the physical relationships with both OW #1 and OW #2 (He lied in his first post on his thread).The only thing that stopped him from having intercourse with OW #2 was her reluctance and limited opportunity (she was a single mother). When he drove to her house with the idea of having sex with her, the thing that stopped him was fear of her rejection. If she, at any point, had given him a clear indication that she would have sex with him, he would have done it.

CGIR pursued sex with OW #2 as a game - he would "win" by getting her to give in. I believe this because this was a huge issue for me for about 2/3 of our relationship. I would tell CGIR that I didn't like something and he would aggressively do that very thing, to show that he could "make" me like it. Since I couldn't communicate with him effectively to get him to stop, I contributed to this cycle by "faking it," just so it would end. Fortunately, we discussed this in an early round of counseling (pre-MB) and CGIR did stop this behavior and has never returned to it. With me, anyway.

CGIR treated OW #2 badly. He asked her into his car, groped her, and since he felt it was not possible for them to have sex in the car, told her it was time to stop because he had to go home. (Wait, maybe this should be listed under "the good").

(Also under "the good," there was far less of a physical relationship than I originally thought, quantity-wise. Probably due to practical considerations, and probably due to the fact that CGIR treated OW #2 like [censored]).

In between OW #1-2, there was another work colleague who CGIR was friends with, and whom I was jealous of. The only thing that stopped her from becoming an OW was her own boundaries. Since she never showed that type of interest in CGIR, he never instigated a sexual relationship.

Between OW #1 AND #2, there was an approximately 15-year gap where CGIR did not have any EA/PA affairs (the ONS with the prostitute occurred during this time). However, in my opinion, CGIR was "an affair waiting to happen" - I think the reason he did not have an affair was simply because no opportunity presented itself.

The ugly: I'm having a few troubling thoughts right now, listed below in no particular order:

Originally, before "T(ruth)-day," I thought CGIR risked our relationship for a deep, emotional connection. Now I know he risked our relationship for...nothing. A stupid, manipulative game. I don't know which one is "worse."

The only reason CGIR told me the truth was because I told him I wanted a polygraph and he believed I was going to follow through. (I actually do still want one and am going to pursue one - I want to KNOW, as much as I possibly can, if the physical relationships CGIR described are accurate - no more omissions, no more trickle truth. I also want to know if there is anyone he "left out"). CGIR did not tell me the truth to begin an intimate relationship with me; he told me the truth to keep me in his life. And after 30 years, I'm part of a "package" that includes two steady paychecks, health benefits, a nice home, pets and recreational companionship. Oh, I'm a pretty easy lay and historically, I've been easy to manipulate - a doormat, some might say. But CGIR wants me to believe these things aren't relevant, and that he "loves" me.

CGIR admits he didn't "see" me before now. But now he does? How does this happen? This is actually really important for me to know. And how could he "love" me, when he didn't even see me? How does he even know who I am? I sure didn't know who he was.

Well, I guess that it's for now - as always, thanks for listening.

BV

Your feelings and thoughts are just so "normal", I can't describe to you how much you sound like I did.

You are doing well, in your thinking this through. I understand completely the concept of your weighing why he might risk everything for an affair that was really

NOTHING.


You are asking the big question we all ask: WHY!?!?!?!?!?!



For me, when I realized I would never know "why", and came to something that could be called a "near-acceptance" of not knowing why, was when I finally felt like I could move ahead.


It took a long time.

You have lots to work through before you get there, which is the hard thing to say to you.


The better thing? You have come some distance since you first got here.

And,

My H had a time of about 28 years or so between his affairs. I, too, had the same questions about the span in between - did it reflect a "real" marriage? could he have loved me? how could he have lied? what did all this mean about our time together? did it negate the marriage?

all of it


we share in common


I asked my H about every woman he had ever met, and I mean EVERY WOMAN that I could think of, in exquisite detail.


It was torture for me and for him.


We did get through this.



Five year anniversary of d-day.....THIS WEEK.


Hang in there.


The "answers" to many questions do come, in time. In very strange ways.


SB

Dear Schoolbus:
Thank you for your last post. Despite reading posts on this site for several years, I still feel like I'm the only one who thinks this way, especially when I read posts by those who've had great success with "thought-stopping," "re-claiming," etc.



It's been approximately two months since CGIR told me the facts of his three affairs. Before this, I had pinned all my hopes on knowing the (factual) truth - I believed this would finally allow me to move on. I was so desparate to move on that I even considered divorcing CGIR, hoping that after enough time had passed and he had re-married, he might tell me the truth. I wanted (NEEDED) the truth so badly that I was willing to give CGIR up in order to get it.

Before "T-Day," I spent a considerable amount of time EVERY DAY for FOUR YEARS doing pointless things (like using MapQuest to try to figure out how a few errands to some local stores could put 110 miles on an odometer) to see if I could find the truth myself. I thought if I knew the truth, I could spend my time doing things that would make me a better person instead of spending my time doing things that made me a confused, frustrated, depressed and anxious person.

After CGIR finally told me the truth, I did feel "free" for a short time. I can honestly say that I now spend little time dwelling on the facts of CGIR's affairs; accounts balanced and closed.

But I haven't been able to fill that time doing anything functional or productive - I lost who I used to be and I think that person is gone forever. Instead, cogitating trust (how can I ever trust CGIR again? did he tell me the WHOLE truth, or just a more reasonable, believable lie? is he telling me the truth about his thoughts and feelings, or just blowing smoke to smooth things over?) has expanded to filled the available time, and is even more pointless as these are questions without answers.

After a period of feeling optimistic, I just feel hopeless. I feel that CGIR's affairs have infected me with doubt, and now I have chronic illness that requires constant attention. I know MB advises betrayed spouses to focus on actions, but CGIR's affairs have taught me that there is no such thing as transparency - in 2010, a motivated person can hide any action from any person. There are things we can do to make another affair less likely (and more difficult to conduct), but an undercover affair is always possible. Only CGIR can prevent an affair, but I can never KNOW if he is taking the steps to do so. I can THINK he is; it can be LIKELY he is; I can HOPE he is; but I can never KNOW that he is. That is the nature of being infected with doubt - the constant awareness of the scope of what I don't and cannot KNOW.

Which leads me to a question I keep asking CGIR - if he didn't love me before (he says he did, but since he didn't show his love in actions, words or thoughts, I don't see how this is possible; I think it's more reasonable to say that he would like to believe that he loved me), how can he love me now, when I am distrustful, suspicious and resentful? Why am I better to him broken than I was (relatively) whole?

Sometimes I just don't see how it is possible to get through this. I can see settling, but I can't see recovering.

Thanks, as always, for listening.

BV

Hi Brokenvase,


I think that you can do it together. Here's what we did. We signed two papers: list of extraordinary precautions and a paper which states what will happen to the one who decides to have an affair again. We made the list of EPs together and we both had a chance to expand it, make it more detailed, did whatever we needed to feel good about it. This came out as a balanced list of what we won't do as well as what we will do in order to protect our marriage from now on. Another paper is basically a end document for the one who disregards the existing EPs' document and chooses to have an affair anyway, s\he practically loses everything we share together and more. Maybe this would work for you, too.

BV,

You are a lot like I am. I think deeply into things, and then ask more questions, then more on top of those.

I consider possible scenarios, and then think them through, which is what you are doing regarding whether or not CGIR loves you, or ever did love you....or why he loves you now.


And you worry about what you "know" and don't know.


I have walked those very steps. I worried for years about how a man could have an affair, claim to love his wife, and then move forward with what that wife THOUGHT she had become (your idea of not being the same person as before).

Those are complicated questions.

My thoughts on this:


My husband was able to compartmentalize his behaviors. He kept the affair events separated in his own mind from the rest of his life. There was an artificial distance he created for himself - kind of like he was living the "regular" life, and then stepped outside of himself to conduct the affair.

His "logic" was that if he kept it all separate, it worked for him. He could avoid looking at the morality of it all, at the pain it might cause. He decided that if he kept it separated mentally, he could live with it all - and he justified it with weak ideas such as "what she doesn't know can never hurt her". He said he just KNEW he would never get caught. Only he did.


There was no contingency plan. There was just a ridiculous belief that he was immune to consequences of being caught - because he simply lived two separate lives and was extremely careful. So the two lives would never cross.


Did he stop loving me during the affair? He said that strangely enough he never stopped loving me, and somehow in his head he felt that he was protecting me with his secrecy. That he knew it was terrible and wrong to have the affair, but at the same time his secrecy kept me safe and kept him from having to reveal his bad inner self to me.

I had difficulty understanding this, for obvious reasons. His logic wasn't LOGICAL. It was what he was doing to keep himself safe, not to protect me. To me, it was a betrayal of love.

But in the end, I realized it doesn't mean that his feelings toward me changed. It was HIS weakness, and our relationship, that really led to all of the ingredients being right for the affair. It wasn't about love or lack of love.

It was about his needing something, his seeking something, and his failure to come to me for it.

My role? I had made the mood between us such that he felt frustrated and distrustful with his needs/desires and innermost thoughts. Basically we shared a home, but neglected our relationship.

How can he love me now that I am broken?
The fact is that he knew that HE DID THE BREAKING. On d-day, he began to snap back into the reality phase. He saw his "two lives" come crashing together like a mid-air collision of two 747's. He was snapped into the light of day, and somehow realized all that he had done

and that there was no justification that made any sense.


And those feelings that he had seen die down to just an ember in his heart came flaming up - because he stood to LOSE IT ALL.

At his own hand.


And he realized that what he thought about the relationship, and his own life

was all wrong.

That he had been completely blind, and stupid.


So he began to work pretty hard to fix things - that he broke - and to help me recover from the damage he did.


Because....

he did love me
and he loved me through his affair
and he loved me even though I was broken.


SB

To continue:

Your own sense of "loss of self" is very common after being a betrayed spouse.

This is because you have (we all do) defined yourself by a variety of things - your relationships with your husband, your family status, your activities with your husband, your job, your experiences, your history....

And now, you are forced to review that history with the question in mind about which part might have been a lie, and which might have been "real".

You worry that things that happened might hold different meaning, because you do not know if his affair colored his interaction with you, or his participation in the event. You worry about what he was thinking - in his heart - during this moment or that event. You doubt what you have experienced, so you doubt yourself - who you are and what you "know".

The only real way to work through this is to ask him what he was thinking at a given point, or during an event. Only, you will doubt his answers....because you doubt much about what you knew of yourself, and of your life.

You are looking back to try to put pieces together. The truth is, you can never KNOW what another person thinks or feels, you can only observe their actions and over time get the Gestalt of how they feel or felt.


Your sense of self will re-emerge, I promise. It takes time to come through all of the feelings, the doubts, the thoughts. Work the MB plan, and the two of you will find those connections again. Your sense of the relationship will strengthen, and over time your ability to feel more trust will open up.

It takes time! A couple of years, minimum. This is a huge blow to you and your marriage, and your life

SHOULD CHANGE.

If it didn't, you would be doomed to repeat..................


Don't fear the changes you are sensing. Explore them, work through them, talk through them. They are normal, and as you assess things, you will come to your own conclusions about your life.


And just like you, I feel frustrated when I cannot KNOW something. Only

that is the truth of our lives. No one can ever really KNOW.


You are doing well, and CGIR looks to be exploring himself, too. He has made some mental changes - he is awakening.


It is not easy to recover a marriage. Hang in there!

SB

If anyone remembers reading our stories, here is an update from BV and CGIR:

Around the second week of January, CGIR's out-of-state assignment ended and he has been living home since this time. He is working a fairly decent number of hours from home and has a possibility of getting an assignment that would have a long commute (1+ hour one way), but would enable him to live at home.

CGIR has been VERY considerate of me since he's been home. He helped me with a large project for my work, which involved him staying up late into the night (for him) and then getting up early the next morning to continue to help me. When a second project was due almost immediately after the first, he came to my workplace to clean things for me while I worked on the second project. He does work for me for my second job without complaining. We recently redecorated three rooms in our house, and CGIR handled everything - from getting quotes and a good price from vendors to moving three rooms of furniture twice (out of the rooms and then back in) and cleaning up construction dust on his hands and knees. He's also been listening to me when I talk - for example, I mentioned in passing that I was almost out of red pepper and would have to get more. The following week, I opened the kitchen cabinet and found a new container of red pepper. (This may not seem like much, but previously, CGIR would not purchase things I wrote on the list that he took to the store). And today, I asked him to bring in his GPS from his car so I could register it, AND HE DID.

Unfortunately, though, I don't really feel any better about things. As the title of my post says, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. In the past, CGIR would "do good" to hide the fact that he'd done something he knew he shouldn't have been doing and to throw me off guard. (It usually had the opposite effect, though, as it still does). I constantly think, "What's he doing now that he feels he needs to balance the scales?" And I don't really feel better now that he's home - all the opportunities he had while living out-of-state still exist, and are just as accessible. In fact, in many ways I did better personally when he was away - it's a lot of pressure to be "on" all the time when he's home - hair, make-up, clothes, house picked up, attention, conversation, etc. When he was away M-F, I was able to come home, take a nap if I felt like it, leave my dishes on the table until I was ready to put them away, etc. Now I feel I constantly have to be "on guard" to prevent CGIR from thinking that I'm lazy (nap), ugly (hair, make-up), slovenly (dishes), stupid and/or sullen (conversation) - all things he thought about me while he was having his affairs. It's exhausting.

No questions, really - just an update and a sigh of disappointment. I thought things would be better now. It seems as if the only way the present will get better is if the past gets better (which it obviously won't).

Thanks for listening.

BV

brokenvase, I don't remember if I've posted to you about this before, but the above really jumped out at me.

Do you know about Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)?

It's really just a fancy term for Attention Addict. NPDs use other human beings as their drug of choice. They live for the validation, strokes, admiration, "respect" and most of all ATTENTION ATTENTION ATTENTION they can get from others.

They have abandoned all inward sources of validation in order to leave the most possible room to get attention from others. Therefore, they have no sense of self-worth or self-validation. They are empty vessels who look at other people the way an alcoholic looks at a bottle of Jack Daniels.

Not all adulterers are NPD, but virtually all NPDs are adulterers. They have no boundaries about getting attention and strokes from others (they can't, obviously - gotta be open to getting their drug at all times, just like any other kind of addict), so they are wide open to any and all attention all of the time.

I would urge you to Google "narcissistic spouse" and see what you think.

Dr. Drew has a book on Aquired Narcissism - you can read parts of it on Amazon - and below is a link to an MB thread on NPD.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2336925&page=1

Good luck. If he is NPD then you are dealing with an addiction and as we all know, MB principles don't work when addictions are present.

My XWH fits every description of an NPD/sex addict. And he didn't start out that way, but once in the big-time corporate environment his need for attention, strokes, and admiration (especially from the trashy girls infesting the place) got completely out of control. He was just like a crackhead going to work in the crackhouse every day. It's an addiction like any other, really no different from booze or heroin except that the Attention Addict is usually way high functioning. But my XWH's NPD behaviour destroyed our family just the same as countless other junkies have destroyed theirs.

Please look into this and see what you think. If he's still there and you can be clear on what you are dealing with, there may still be hope. At the very least, his behaviour will no longer be such a bizarre mystery.

BV,


Oh, the six-month mark. The point of torture where you have been through the initial fire, and now you have calmed enough to look back a bit and see where you've been, and look forward enough to realize

this is a mountain I have to climb!!!


And you are seeing the work this will take. The sense of it being too hard, will I get through it, and HOW will I get through it, stands before you in stark reality.

On top of it all is the cherry of anger (if it isn't there yet, it will hit you in the next month or two, kind of predictable pattern here).

BV, it is a mountain to climb. But the good news is that you do not climb it all in one day. And also, you have the tools to do the climbing right before you. You have already made changes in yourself, and living those changes makes them easier and easier. You talk of how hard it is to make your appearance nice for him - girl, make it nice for you! Take pride in yourself, because it reflects a sense of your inner beauty - let your best self shine on the outside, as much as on the inside. You are a researcher, and studies show that when you are nicely dressed and presenting a good-looking self (in your OWN opinion), you feel better about yourself, have higher self-confidence, and also have more positive beliefs about what others are thinking about you.

Taking a nap isn't lazy.......negotiate this and use POJA to talk about this with CGIR. Half the people on earth come home from work and want a little power nap. Maybe instead of sleeping for hours, take a true POWER nap and limit it to 30 minutes, which actually is more refreshing.....


I see in your post a lot of second-guessing of his motivations. That's fairly common after what you've been through. You do not trust him. No reason to trust him, really. That sense of believing what he says to you only comes over lots of time, and lots of proof of his change of behavior. I would say that if you stay out of the box toward him, your return from him will be out of the box, too.

You can control only what you do - remember to come from a point where you see him as a person, accept his attempts to love you, and stay open to him. At some point, you will begin to see things return to a sense of "more safe" with him. It takes time, time, time.

Dear Mulan:

Thanks for posting. I actually am familiar with NPD and I must say that according to the DSM-IV-TR criteria, CGIR is 0 for 9. None of them describe him at all.

In the past, CGIR would do things for me that I wanted or liked "in the eleventh hour" to, I think, in his mind "make up for" something he knew he should not have done. One night, I remember, I was out taking a class and while I was gone, he had looked up women's MySpace accounts, something we had a clear agreement about. After he did this, he spent the rest of the evening until I came home doing the errands and extras I had wanted done but he neglected up until that point. When I got home, he very blatantly pointed out everything he had done, and wasn't I happy and excited about it? But as I said, these actions made me suspicious and I was almost always right. I should say at this time that CGIR did do things for me that I liked that without ulterior motivation, but these were things that he liked, too, so it was no effort for him to do them (e.g., taking a trip we both wanted to go on, going to a show or a ball game, etc.).

Currently, CGIR does TONS AND TONS of things for me that only I want, need or like without complaining. He will make me a cup of tea when I could very well get up and make it myself. He will the clerical work I need done for my jobs. He will buy me clothing that's too expensive because I like it. He will clean the whole house and not ask for my help. He will get up and feed our pets so I can sleep. And so on and so on. His actions make a lot of sense for someone who realizes he made a mistake and wants to atone. What I'm having a hard time with is disassociating these actions with his former motivations and considering that these actions might now be genuine.

So, his behavior is not bizarre at all - both times, it was/is quite rational. Again, I'm just having a very hard time believing the topography of his behavior now has a different function.

Dear Schoolbus:

Thank you also for taking the time to post. I *wish* I had anger - I think it would be easier to resolve. Currently, I'm stuck in the mire of resentment....

There's actually nothing to negotiate with CGIR. He tells me NOT to "fix up" when I come home from work or on the weekends if we're not going out. He says he LIKES me to wear sweats. He tells me TO take a nap. My problem is the discrepancy - BEFORE, I was frumpy and lazy when I did these things. NOW, I'm cute and rested. I was a "6," now I'm a "10." WHICH ONE IS IT? I don't actually care what the answer is, I just want to know - WHICH ONE? What is his true, objective thought? Which line of thinking will be durable, despite temporary changes in circumstance? WHICH ONE can I rely on being TRUE?

I was trying to explain this to my therapist once and told her it's like Plato's Allegory of the Cave, but with a twist - after it was revealed that all you had know before was an illusion, why on earth would you think that what you were seeing now is true?

Trust? Nope. None. And I can't picture how it will come back.

Again, no questions, just confusion. It doesn't make sense. Well, actually it DOES make sense but I DO NOT LIKE the manner in which it makes sense. If that makes any sense....

Just sitting for tonight in the box. Under the packing peanuts. With duct tape.

BV

brokenvase, I hope you are right about the NPD. Just remember that even though they may do a lot of nice things for you, there's always a price - like a Christmas gift that still has the price tag stuck on it so you know exactly how much it cost them.

I was also looking at your sig, and it looks like he's been carrying on outside your marriage for a very long time.

And you are right not to trust him now, and not *just* because of his past adultery. Is he remorseful? Does he really seem to regret his actions? Or is he just switching to bribery to get you to look the other way, since bullying didn't work? Maybe that's why your gut is screaming at you that this is just further manipulation, not real remorse.

Just be very careful. I don't know what the DSM-IV-TR criteria are for NPD, but I did hear that they are dropping NPD from their list and don't really believe in it.

I don't think it's a "personality disorder" either. I think it's just another addiction and so does Dr. Drew. Something about your posts just made the alarm bells go off. Hope I am wrong.

BV,

FWIW, he has read the book I recommended. Doing the "right" thing is one of the components of personal changed, and embedded in that process is doing the thing that you know you should do - for someone else - that prevents you from putting yourself in the box toward them.

What this might reveal about him is that all along he has had these feelings that he should make that cup of tea for you (or do that paperwork, or make that purchase because you need that new blouse, etc.)

and has passed that feeling over

and then resented YOU for it somehow, making YOU blameworthy somehow, and then used that blame and resentment as his own justification for having his affairs.


Now, he sees these feelings of desire to do something for you as what they truly are - right and loving feelings toward someone he loves. And that these are feelings that he can and should act upon, because when he DOES act upon them, they increase his feelings of love toward you

and in return, he can effect change in his relationships in the world.



He hopes that in the long run he will effect change in his marriage, perhaps change in the feelings you have toward him.


The problem is that it is SO very hard to live outside of the box, isn't it? And to stay outside of the box toward someone who has wronged you so many times over so long.


After you read the self-deception book a couple of times, try the sequel: The Anatomy of Peace.


More in-depth, more descriptions of our boxes.


I found my specific box type there........ouch. Yet, more peace in that book for myself.


Every day is one more tiny step, BV. Not the whole mountain.


Just one step.

A recap and an update, for anyone that remembers our threads....

The recap: At the end of September (2011), CGIR finally told me the whole truth about his affairs over the years. I was blindsided by an affair I never knew about and a ONS with a prostitute. Two weeks from that day, we were supposed to go to a family wedding. Not surprisingly, I didn't want to go. CGIR stepped up to the plate, told his family why I wasn't attending and suffered through the wedding and reception by himself. At the time, I was very surprised that he told his mother, aunt and brothers the true reason I was not there; previously, he would have told them we didn't go because I was sick, and let our being no-shows be (albeit inadvertently) my fault. It gave me a little hope that he understood, in a small way, the importance and value of honesty.

Well, we were invited to a second wedding to be held at the end of this month. (Another daughter of the same aunt, incidentally). I don't want to go, as I have no inclination to paste on a happy smile, make chit-chat with the other guests and listen to them reminisce about their wonderful weddings, while thinking the whole time that my own wedding, which I used to love, was no more than an egregiously expensive party. And the thing I was really dreading was crying, feeling sick and hiding out in the ladies' room during the reception while CGIR told everyone that I was "sick," going right back to the cover-ups and easy lies.

CGIR and I had avoided making a decision about attending, and as it turned out, the weekend we had to reply was the weekend of the royal wedding. (Needless to say, it was NOT a good weekend for me). We decided not to go, although I had the feeling that CGIR was just appeasing me, and was not enthusiastic about the decision.

Which brings us to today. CGIR spent some time helping his mother, who asked if we were going to the wedding. She was surprised that we weren't, especially since we are "doing well" and everything between us happened "over six months ago." (More than enough time to have gotten over it, doncha think?)

CGIR then explained to his mother how I felt, why it was appropriate and rationale for me to feel this way AND ADMITTED TO TO ALL HIS AFFAIRS, 25 YEARS OF LYING TO ME ABOUT THEM AND BEING SELFISH BY ONLY THINKING ABOUT HIMSELF. When he spoke to his mother in October, he only told her about his most recent affair. His first affair happened 23 years ago. He didn't have to tell her about it (he could have defended me based on the information she already had) - HE DID IT ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE AND I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE THAT HE WAS GOING TO DO IT. I didn't tell him to, I didn't ask him to, he just thought she should know the depth of what we're going through. He also said he was annoyed that his family "doesn't get it" and would be content to just sweep it under the carpet and pretend as if it didn't happen.

This new development has me shocked and stunned. Could this really mean that CGIR has actually changed, for real, and maybe for good? Never in a million years would I have even imagined he would do something like this. Previously, lying was a way of life for CGIR - he lied to live and lived to lie.

I truly don't know what to think. I never thought CGIR could do anything that I was not cynical about....but even I am finding a hard time being cynical about this. I feel like I just got hit by an unknown force and had all the wind knocked out of me - that I was standing just a moment ago and now I'm knocked flat.

BV (or tonight, FB - feeling breathless)

Wow, Congratulations. I have read your story and can see that this is a huge thing. Take it for what it is and enjoy it. If nothing else, he is empathizing and trying. That is great!

Wow.
Interesting.
Stunning.




Witnessing someone's moral epiphany is amazing.


Yeah. Possibly.



My H used to lie all the time.
Today he is an honest man.


My H was transformed after his A.
Mostly he was transformed by insights he acquired going to AA and working the 12 steps with his sponsor(s).

Stay tuned ....

Dear Sunnydaze and Pepperband:

Thanks for taking the time to reply. CGIR spent some time with his mother and family on Sunday and he continued to speak openly about our situation with his mother, brother and uncle. He even named OW#1, who his brother knew.

When his family members asked, "But things are going well, right?" he was quick to point out that we still have a LONG way to go and that our current circumstance is due to his selfishness and lying, not my inability to forgive a "mistake." (His mother told him, "Well, we all make mistakes" and his brother told him that "women hold onto things much longer than men").

He could have easily whitewashed everything by keeping affair #1 a secret and letting everyone believe that we are "fine." He also could have blamed me for "holding a grudge."

But he didn't.

Still afraid to trust this, though.

BV

My H found honesty and openness to be very liberating and hugely valuable to his self-worth. He is a transformed man.

AM

A little recap:

When I first started posting last year, CGIR had had two workplace affairs. His second affair was an office EA that became a PA on an overseas trip and continued/escalated when they came back home. The affair ended when I found out and confronted CGIR, although he continued to work with the OW for the next two years. This situation ended when CGIR lost his job; while the affair wasn't the direct cause, it was certainly the first domino tipped in the chain of events. Due to a variety of factors, including the economy, CGIR has not had stable employment since 2008 and in 2010 had to take a job out-of-state for almost a year, which lead to a D-day and near divorce.

Well, CGIR just obtained (hopefully) about 6 months' of work at a location that is ~2 miles from our home. For the next month, until I return to work, we could theoretically even have lunch together.

Good news, right? Well, I really don't feel any better than when he worked out of state. First, my thinking is, if he wanted to continue/start another affair and hide it from me, he could do it from 2 miles away as easily as he could from two states away. Both of CGIR's previous affairs were solely workplace affairs. In the case of his second affair, he did not take OW out in evening; he came home on time from work every night; with a single exception he did not see her on the weekend, and other than listening to the messages she would leave him on his work voice mail (and it was a small number of messages) did not communicate with her on the weekend. So, his affair was well-contained, and if he just kept his communication off the home electronics (which, after all our telephone/computer D-days, he'd be an idiot not to), he could certainly have another one, perhaps this time with me none the wiser. I am no believer in the illusion of transparency - to paraphrase another poster, just look at what gets sneaked into prisons.

Second, CGIR has never had any practice turning away from female attention. The only person he's ever (legitimately) dated was me. He's confident he recognizes his prior lack of boundaries and won't fall into the same patterns and traps, but how can he be so confident when he's never done it? Is he really going to tell a co-worker who puts her tray down at his table in the cafeteria and starts to discuss a work issue that he won't eat with her? Or tell another co-worker whose car has broken down that he won't give her a ride? Is he ready to appear rude and maybe hurt an "innocent" person's feelings to protect our marriage? This will involve a huge change in behavior for him, that he's never practiced before. (I should say that when CGIR worked out of state, these things were not an issue for a variety of very unique reasons, one being that CGIR was working for an employing agency that his co-workers despised, so I'm pretty confident that when he said no one was talking to him, no one was talking to him).

Any way, I guess this is my long-winded way of saying that lack of trust sucks, big time.

Every day when he comes home from work, I have to consider that maybe something happened. Maybe it didn't, but I'll never know. Oh wait, I could ask CGIR. He'll be open and honest, because, this time's different. (Please read with despair, not sarcasm).

No questions; just anxious and sad.

BV

Hi brokenvase,

thanks for the update. Why don't you put a VAR into his car?

Have you addressed his weakness for female attention in the written list of EP's and boundaries of yours? These possible plunders should be brainstormed. EPs should include the rule of never going to lunch alone, so he could not be exposed to this female attention. Could it be possible for him to have lunch with at least 4 male colleagues, so that his table will be full and no female can join them? Or can you have your lunches together since he is much closer to you now?

Me - BW/WW - 45
Him - CGIR - WH 45






DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - 1989 EA was actually PA and lasted one year.


I don't remember why or when you were a WW.

Why are you a WW/BW and your husband is just a WH, where is his BH label?

What I do know is that a lot of manure has been going on for years. And with your WH not home due to work how can things heal? Chances are they will not. So be happy he closer.

Why don't you both relocate?


The most important thing is your last Dday is still not 1 year away. Everytime there is a new Dday recover period clock gets set back to zero even though you have been dealing with this since 1989.

Both you and your H need to make sure there are no more ddays and stop living apart. There will be no recovery the way you are going.

Dear Mrs_Recon6mo:

Thanks for the reply.


I have thought about this, actually. I KNOW, though, that I will always be wondering "what I'm missing." I'm trying to stop the hyper-vigilance. I have told CGIR that if I suspect an affair in the future, I will hire a private investigator. I will NOT waste my time working as a full-time PI like I did last time.


We have done this, but my concern is that not only has CGIR never had any opportunity to implement EPs, he has not even had the opportunity to practice turning down female attention, not even before marriage. (He also thinks it's not going to happen (i.e., receiving female attention), which, as we know is dangerous because he will be unprepared when it does, inevitably, happen.)

CGIR has said that his first affair happened because the attention paid to him by OW was new and he "didn't know how to handle it." After OW#1, he had a friendship with a potential OW that made me jealous, but since she did not reciprocate his interest, it stayed at the "just friends" level, on her part, anyway. (CGIR never revealed to her that he was interested; I think he was waiting for her to "go first.") CGIR was very unhappy with me at the time OW#2 entered the picture, so he actively pursued what he wanted from her. In between these two OW, there was just not another "perfect storm" of reciprocal attraction, initiation on the part of the OW and selfishness on CGIR's part.

So, to date, every time CGIR's been attracted to someone who's also shown him interest, he's "gone for it."

Thinking you will do something and actually doing it when the time comes are two completely different things, especially when you are caught off guard.


These are good suggestions, but right now all discussions are hypothetical, as CGIR does not start until tomorrow. At this point, he does not know anyone and has no idea what the circumstances will be. Doesn't stop me from having them, though.

Thanks for listening -

BV

Dear TheRoad:

Thanks for taking time to reply.


I had a ONS involving oral sex with a person I worked with about 18 years ago.


I never noticed this before. It's more of a typo than a statement. I will update my signature after I post this.



As they say on Storage Wars, "YYYUUUUPPPPP!!!!"


Trying!


At this time, there's no need, as we are both working less than 5 miles from home. However, if CGIR becomes unemployed again (likely, after this job), relocating would involve trading my secure (as it can be, in this economy) employment that provides our health insurance and pays our bills, for...a move to somewhere where CGIR might work for a couple of months, then be out again. Then we'd both be unemployed (me with no unemployment as I'd have quit my job) in an unfamiliar area, where neither of us wanted to be in the first place. Also, my mother lives with us and is likely losing her job in the fall, so we'd have to figure out a situation for her. (She would not be able to live on her own).



I keep trying to remember this. It seems like it's been going on forever (oh wait, it HAS been going on forever...)


YYYUUUUPPPPP!!!!

Hoping things can be different this time, but often feeling bleak.

Thanks for listening -

BV

bv,

When we first "met" we talked about control. You only control yourself in the marriage. CGIR controls only himself.


It isn't that you trust or do not trust. It is a matter of whether or not HE is able to control himself - and that comes down to whether or not his changes are real.

You can base your daily views of whether his changes are real or not on what he does - and what you see.

Get GPS for his cellphone, so you will know exactly where he is and can verify his location, or get a GPS for his car.

Ask him to call frequently. Or, call him regularly. Check his text history with the cellphone carrier.

There is no crime in checking up on him. There is nothing wrong with asking him to check in with you.

If his changes are real, he will do this willingly, and he will understand exactly why you are afraid and distrustful.



It takes time for a BS to move through all of this. For a serial cheater, it takes the BS a lot longer. CGIR knows this.

The fact that he told his family the details of his cheating is something that surprised me. It tells me that he wants, and needs, others to know that not only was he a terrible husband, but that he also wants them to know that YOU are being a terrific wife to work through this with him and to give him another chance.

It also tells us that he wants people to WATCH him. It is asking others to keep their eye on him - a public admission of a promise to change means that he plans to make that change.

It's kind of like making a public announcement that you will lose 100 pounds, and then eating every day in public. Everyone is watching, and keeping you in check.


I have great hopes for the two of you. I really hope you can work this out, and that your jobs all work out, too. This economy has hit too many people too hard.

SB

Dear Schoolbus:


Unfortunately. Things would go MUCH more smoothly if I controlled all....

I don't think it's so much that I want to control CGIR's actions (well, I obviously do, but I know it's an impossibility - believe me, control is my first choice and if it were available, I would already be doing it!) I think I want to know the end result NOW, and act accordingly. If he's going to deceive me again tomorrow, I want out today. If he's going to deceive me again after let's say 20 great years together, I STILL want out today. I would give up the 20 great years to avoid another D-Day IN A HEARTBEAT. I really, really, really, REALLY can't do it again.

(Thank goodness I've selected a more realistic and achievable option than control!)


What I worry about, though, is the percent, whether it's 25% or 1% or .0001%, that I can't possibly see or know. I fear being deceived, by commission or omission, "living a lie" and having the proverbial rug ripped out from under me just when I start to relax. I fear actually succeeding in changing my thoughts only to be wrong, yet again. I have to be on guard, ready and steeled for that next blow.


I wish these things could provide me with some assurance or comfort. Right now, they seem like water wings against a tsunami. I WISH I only worried about his physical actions. I worry about his THOUGHTS.


He does, both the willing part and understanding part. But, my currently line of thinking (not saying it's a productive one, just saying it's my current one) says: they're just water wings against the tsunami.


I know. It just seems SO long. Even I'm getting tired of it. Just seems too risky to keep on going, though. It sucks where I am, but I'm worried (sense a theme here?) that it will suck worse further on. If I stay here, can I avoid the worse thing? (I know the answer is "no," by the way. However, it still seems better to stay right here).


It surprised me, too, especially when he went beyond the initial admission of an affair. Unfortunately, his family will accept anything he does, no matter how abominable. An OW would be in my Thanksgiving chair like *that*. I think (hope) it was the terrific wife reason.

I guess my trigger is I'm coming up on the anniversary of D-Day #5. This was a particularly hard D-Day because before he went to work out of state, I told him that it was his perfect opportunity for redemption. While he was away, he (seemed) to be saying and doing all the right things. When he came home on weekends, we had a great time. When I went to visit him this time last year, we had a great time. But almost the very minute I left, he was on the computer looking at porn and the OW's picture. And what kills is that, as with many of our D-Days, I found out by accident, due to Facebook's egregious publicizing of information.

Also, CGIR is coming up on his one year anniversary of truthful living. In the history of our relationship, he has never gone this long without doing something and lying to me about it. Previously, 3-6 months is as long as he could go. I've been hopeful before, and I'm scared to hope again. I keep thinking, it can't be a year - what's out there that I missed, what's right now boomeranging back at me?


Thank you. That makes you and CGIR. Maybe I can join you one day?

Seriously, though, THANK YOU, because you have been the ONLY one to ever get through to CGIR. If it weren't for you - not MB, but YOU, in particular - there wouldn't be a two of us. There would only be me, posting on the Divorced/Divorcing forum.

Thanks, as always, for posting and listening.

BV

bv,


Thanks for your kinds words. I hold out the great hope that all waywards are redeemable, I suppose because I once was so lost myself. I yanked my own self out of such a low place in the world, that I truly believe if I can do it, anyone can. I am not special.


I believe that there is a coupon good for redemption for all people. And that coupon also is renewable, over and over. There is at least one being in the world with the patience to wait until I get it right. The least I can do is try to have some of that patience, too.



You talk about wanting to know what will happen in the future. I suppose we all do, bv. Everyone wants a guarantee. I once wrote a letter to my daughter about this very issue. She was wanting to drop out of school, exactly ONE CLASS SHORT OF GRADUATION. no-no-no-no I said.

She told me that she was tired, that there was no guarantee of a job with a degree in music education, that teachers were getting laid off everywhere, and that districts weren't hiring music teachers anyway. Music programs were being cut. She didn't see a future in teaching, and couldn't see anything coming out of a degree, and was frustrated with the whole idea of education in general - she did not want to teach. Changing majors meant more years of school. Then there was still not a guarantee of anything. Her friends with degrees were working in restaurants or bars, at Wal-Mart.....and besides, she wanted to "live for the moment", as there was really no guarantee of ANYTHING.

All this, and her boyfriend, well......was CHEATING ON HER.


Wonder why she felt this way?????? hmmmmmmm.


So I wrote to her and told her what I'm about to say to you, in a bit different words, because I can't really recall the exact thing I said then. But, it worked.



Dear sweetie,

You want guarantees about the future. Nobody has them. I get no guarantee that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, but I have a doctor's appointment for two weeks from Thursday. I'm fairly certain I will get to then, so I went ahead and made the appointment banking on the sunrise for at least the next two weeks and then some.

I figure that landlords are also on the bandwagon for some sense of guarantee, too. They charged you some rent for the month, and your lease goes for the next six. They are willing to take the risk on you, and I figure they are convinced enough to gamble on at least that long. I suppose we could ask to pay rent on a month-to-month, but if you want we could check on a day-to-day rate; if that seems like too long in the "no guarantee, live for the moment" world, we might look into an hourly rate.

Seriously, sweetie, you get the point. I'm trying my best to love you into the future. As your mom, it's my job to think ahead far enough to help you get over those hurdles years into your life. That's why I enrolled you in kindergarten when you were five. I anticipated that you would need a high school education, even though you might have contracted a strange disease, or died in a car wreck, or some comet might have struck our house. I loved you into the future despite no guarantee that you would have one - and so I did all I could, every day, to give you the foundation you would need for your next step in life.

That's what college is about. I'm loving you into your future. Sure, it is a roll of the dice whether or not you will ever go into teaching. At this point, you are sure you won't. So you find a college and you finish a bachelor's degree, and we love you into the future with a college degree that is the foundation of something - we do not know what your future holds, and we never have. Yet, that degree might serve you somewhere down life's road. If you finish the work now, and never use it, you can say that you learned "this much" and earned "this degree". And you will NEVER say "I walked away when I could have finished, but I could not see 16 weeks into the future". I know that ONE of those decisions you will regret, and the other you will hold up with pride.

It is your decision.


I do know this: I bought a full tank of gas yesterday. I could always just carry a one-gallon can in the car with me, and add what I need as I go along. After all, that car could conk out on me before I got to the end of the driveway, and buying a full tank could be a waste of money.


I'm pretty sure I will make it to the end of the driveway, though. I'm also pretty sure the sun will rise, I will make the doctor's appointment, and that I will love you into the future just as I have every single day since the day you were born.


Let me know what you decide.








She called me when she got the email. She enrolled in another college out of state within a week, earned a degree in music (not teaching) within ONE semester. She wrote me this, upon graduating:

Dear Mom,

This note is a "thank you". Your patience guided me when nothing else would. You taught me to think for myself, and therefore, protect myself...You taught me how to "woman up". Thank you from the bottom of my heart: It's because of you that I am a SUCCESS!




And so she is. With no guarantees.



SB

Brokenvase,

we are dealing with the very same issue from time to time - how can my H know that I'm serious besides what I'm already doing. How does he know that I'm not faking it (this was painful to hear) and how can he be sure that there is not a plot against him, a la I will leave him after our kids graduate or that sorts of things.

We are now 2 yrs into our recovery, doing MB together, and although these low moments occur much less now, they still do. And I'm responsible for those.

Well, he _knows_ that I'm serious about us for the lifetime, but after I asked him what can I do to make him feel _more_ certain about us, he said that by just repeating that I will not leave and reassuring him that I'm here for him and just understanding where these thoughts come from (oh how I understand it now, you have no idea, HOW badly I want to go back and undo things). Maybe you would want the same kind of reassurance from time to time from your H, I don't know. Radical honesty from your part will give your H valuable information to help him give those reassurances you need.

SB, thank you so very much for sharing this letter, I showed it to my H and altogether this made our conversation about the reassurance much easier. Thank you!

MrsRecon,

You just need to be able to look at today, and love him into the future. What that means is to be able to see past the "now" enough to know that the investment is worth it.

What ended up happening with my daughter is very interesting, and well worth knowing. Her boyfriend was cheating on her, and she wanted guarantees about "investing" the work it would take to patch up their relationship (as well as the college deal, which was really just another life lesson in investing, really).

I talked with her about the concepts of MB, but didn't use the website, because she just wasn't interested. She didn't want "that kind of help" (of course, you know young people!).

Basically, her BF wanted her to be only with him, and he wanted to be able to date the other woman too. She says "NO WAY" to this idea. He was a typical wayward. My daughter is a traveling musician, and in their relationship had also had a ONS, which added to the mix. Their relationship was not a marriage, and they had thought they wanted an "open" relationship, then changed their minds, then changed again. They had no formed boundaries, and yet they seemed to want some.

But she wanted to try to work it out, because she did love the man, and they had been together for about two years.

I talked with her about one single concept. That is the idea that if you work on a relationship with a person it is an investment. However, it is not like a financial investment where you can lose money and it is gone forever. A relationship - whether you stay together or the two of you walk away from one another in the end, is worthy of an investment either way. Because, YOU gain, even if the relationship ends.


Truth there.

If you invest and work on the relationship, YOU gain. The key is that YOU have to INVEST. If you don't, then you do lose.

Let's say you invest, and it works. You win! Enough said.

But, let's say you invest, and the relationship fails.

You still win. How is this so?

You learned how to work on your own faults.
You learned how to spot emotional needs in another person, and work to meet those needs.
You learned how to better negotiate with another person.
You learned how to control yourself during disagreements.
You learned how to better communicate your needs to another person, even through difficult times.
You learned to practice patience, you learned to practice persistence, and you learned to overcome obstacles in a relationship.

The list goes on.


You also learned what you need, like, do not like, what you can and cannot live with, and what you will and will not accept in the NEXT relationship.

You learned how to choose a better partner next time.


My DD finally figured out what she wanted, and she and her BF sat down and negotiated their relationship. The decided to try again, and actually used the concepts we discussed (they had no idea these were MB concepts - POJA, O&H, ENs, etc.). The two started over, and DD was in Plan A and the BF was NC. He was not good at NC, and was not good at his boundaries. He was also very poor with DJs and AOs. The couple lasted another two months, and my DD left the relationship. She realized that despite the changes SHE had made, he was unwilling to make the relationship stronger. He wanted what HE wanted


and was not willing to have a true partnership that was mutual with her.


She had invested herself.

And, although she left that relationship, she carried with her some new ideas. Concepts that she would never had learned, never had practiced, and never had considered before. She saw how they worked FOR HER. She came out of the relationship a much stronger person, changed for the better.

She found a new way to talk to someone about issues - instead of fighting. She told me once that the BF was angry about something, and she said to him, "Well, we could sit down and talk about this calmly. We could each take a few minutes to say what we think, and the other could listen openly, and not judge. We could respect the other's opinion and feelings, and we could agree on a solution that works for both of us. OR, we could stay up all night and you could yell at me, I could cry, and we could be miserable. I pretty much choose talking."


He chose to yell. She left him the next day.




A month or so later, she ran into a man that she had dated a few years earlier. The last time she had seen him, he had asked her out but she would not speak to him because she had her EPs in place, and told him did not spend time with single men when she was on the road!!!!!!! Despite her EPs, he did try to convince her to talk with him, just for old time's sake, he still held feelings for her, but he would be good....and she said NO, she had a BF and she did not place her relationship into any position that might be uncomfortable for her BF while on the road - certainly he could appreciate this. Perhaps another time when other friends were around, or maybe when her BF were there, they could have coffee. He reluctantly agreed, but she told me he wasn't happy about it at the time.


Well, she ran into this man again, and he asked her if she was still with her BF, and respectfully asked how the BF was doing. She told the man she was single, and unattached, not dating.

He asked her out. She asked him if HE was dating anyone! He told her no, he also was single..........

They are married now. And she travels for a living, still. Funny thing about those EP's.


He KNOWS she uses them, doesn't he? Because she was pretty firm with him. He wasn't too happy about those EP's back then.

Now?

He thinks they are the greatest thing ever invented.


So that investment pays off. Just like putting enough gas in your tank to get to the end of the driveway, and beyond. That investment is for YOU

not for anyone else.


You have NO guarantee that the sun will rise.


You do not know what the plan is for your life. You might have plans, but life has a funny way of throwing you curves. You will carry everything you learn with you, every investment in yourself with you.


Nobody can ever take away your self-investment. So go ahead and invest in your marriage, and put everything you have into it. It is worth it - win or lose.

There is no lose.


SB

schoolbus, as always, you rock!

I think fear is the killer, it really is. Fear of that unknown future, whether you're a BS or a FWS.

And if we can learn to let go of that fear, then possibilities open to us. Yes, possibilities can run the gamut from bad to worse or things can be better than we'd ever hoped and dreamed.

I'd give anything for H and I to deal with our fears together, head-on, but that may never come to be. I had my chance, and I blew it, big time.

I think we all are capable of learning. It's what we do with the knowledge that defines us.

I heard this last week:
It was in a lecture about teaching students from the "new" generation (those crazy Gen Y-ers, Millenials, whatever you want to call them!), but it applies to so much, in particular the knowledge that we've gained - however painful - about how to have a good marriage. We can choose to apply it, and maybe our M "hatches" into something new and wonderful, or we can try to stay in our shells...

Although some smart-aleck in the lecture pointed out that we could also become omelets...I'm scrambled, myself.

An update, for anyone still following along...

September and October are "anniversary months" for me. Mid September is the anniversary of CGIR's and my first date, 30 years ago. Early October is CGIR's wedding anniversary. And late September (in three days), is the one-year anniversary of my biggest D-Day, the one where CGIR told me the truth about three affairs - one that I thought was ancient history, one that I never knew about, suspected or would have even thought was possible and one that I had known about and had been struggling mightily over.

It's also (possibly) CGIR's one-year anniversary of "truthful living."

In the three-decade history of our relationship, he has never gone a whole year without lying to me.

So, he's either turning a corner or hiding his deceptions much more skillfully - not sure which one to believe.

I don't think he's having an affair or contemplating having an affair right now, but did he go a year without looking up OW on the internet? I'll never know.

Even if he has been truthful, I don't think we're out of the woods yet. Over the summer, a situation came up where CGIR got too much money. I was with him, and he returned the money. We got to talking hypothetically, and he said that if I had not been with him, he probably would have kept the money and not told me about it (lie of omission to both keep the money and avoid having to listen to me become upset). I became upset, and after arguing (the crux of the argument was my question to CGIR: Does O & H to you mean not having another physical affair, or does it mean living an O & H life, whether or not anyone is watching?), CGIR said he saw my point of view, and now felt that he would have returned the money on his own.

The truth, or a lie to shut me up on the topic?

Anyway, no questions, just an update.

Thanks to anyone and all who are listening.

BV

Character is what you do in the dark - that is, when you think no one is watching. This is the perfect illustration of what that means.

If you only do the "right" thing to avoid punishment and can easily do the "wrong" thing if you think no one will know - you have done nothing "right" at all and are still a fundamentally dishonest person. And being fundamentally dishonest is going to eff up your life over, and over, and over, and over again.

Glad you are still together and working on this, though. Hang in there.

I'm wondering if his comment about the money was a way to try to compliment you - telling you that you have helped him in his path to become more honest. That his being with you is leading him to be a more honest person, and that he leans on you for that. And that he still "needs" you for it.

His honest in this situation is good, because what he told you was that he still was tempted. The truth here? Studies show that most people would keep the money. Sad fact of our society. He told you because.......

he now feels confident enough to tell you what he is thinking


instead of hiding it from you.


That, BV, is progress. Consider that in the past he would never even have told you anything, kept the money, and covered it all up even if you figured it out.



There are true changes there.



That's my take on his comment.


As far as his second thought about his not taking the money? Maybe yes, maybe no. Hypotheticals are interesting to throw around and speculate about. Consider that we all say...

"If my spouse had an affair, I would divorce him/her"


and look where we find ourselves today.



Hypotheticals are funny that way. They are worth about as much as the fantasy they are.



SB

Dear Mulan:

Thanks for the encouragement!

BV

Dear Schoolbus:

Thanks for reading and posting.

Well, it is past midnight where I am, so CGIR has made the one year mark. One year of not lying to me; one year of not doing things he'd need to lie about.

That's a personal best.

CGIR has said that it is easier this way; he also said tonight that he feels I am doing better with what we euphemistically call "the past."

He's also said, though, that if he were not with me, he doesn't know if he would continue to be honest; he doesn't know if he would apply the principles he's learned to a new relationship.

Does he WANT to be a better person and sees he can be a better person with me, or does he wish he could still be the person he was, but has resigned himself to the fact that he HAS to change to be with me?

I've compared it to eating vegetables and exercising instead of eating chips and dip and watching TV.

You KNOW vegetables and exercise are better for you; you can SEE the benefits of vegetables and exercise, but you WANT chips, dip and TV. No matter how many new, good habits you form, no matter how remote you try to keep the chips and dip, veggies and exercise never quite measure up.

CGIR knows that being with me means a veggies and exercise lifestyle. Not always the most gratifying choice, but probably the wiser choice, the choice more likely to result in long-term gain.

OW, porn and secrecy offer a chips and dip lifestyle. The fun choice, the immediately gratifying choice, but probably the riskier choice, the choice more likely to result in an unpleasant consequence.

I just wish that I could feel like the "chip choice" - the "I want to" choice, not the "well, I should" choice.

BV

I know my situation is trifling compared to several situations currently going on, but here it is, in the interest of fairness and balance:

A few days ago, I posted about a situation where CGIR got too much money and told me if I wasn't with him, he probably would have kept it....

Yesterday, CGIR and I were in a store to get a receipt to submit to our insurance company for some repairs we had done. The vendor offered to give us a receipt for 15% more than we were paying for the work. He said it was "above board" to take the increased receipt because it was the regular price he would charge for the work. (He had given us a "good customer" discount since we had a lot of work done with them). The vendor didn't make this offer just once, he made it a few times.

CGIR said no, we would just take a receipt for the amount we were actually paying.

Although I was with him in the store (which would have prevented him from getting the other receipt, even if he wanted it), he did seem genuine about his decision.

Stopping the story here now, before I ruin it with pessimistic deconstructions.

BV

P.S. Schoolbus - thank you for the realistic POV about "hypotheticals."

bv,

Life being lived in honesty is a strange world for CGIR.


He is walking in new shoes. At first they felt strange. He was used to wearing flip-flops, or going barefoot.

Now he wears closed-toed shoes all the time. He wasn't used to that. He felt constrained, and unsure about how these shoes would feel. He was sure there would be blisters. He was sure he would hate them.

Only he began to see that he stopped having cuts and bruises on his feet all of the time, from stepping on glass and stones. He stopped getting stickers in his feet, and he could walk many places now where he would never have been welcome before. These new shoes not only work to take him anywhere, he gets more mileage, more compliments, and is respected when he wears them.

He isn't used to that. He was used to being treated differently, having to figure out how to skirt around and take side paths to avoid things. Now, he can stroll right up to the front door of anywhere.

This honesty deal opens doors. It really is an easier life.

Barefoot might look like it is less constrained, but he just might be figuring out that he is a whole lot happier when the stress and anxiety of dishonesty has been removed from his world.


He may have decided that those shoes feel really nice. The warmth feels good.

SB

Today is my wedding anniversary - 24 years.

23 years of no communication, dishonesty and denial false premises and beliefs.

1 year of some honesty (maybe, hopefully) and sadness.

CGIR and I went out over the weekend, to try to have a nice time. Due to miscommunication and misunderstanding, we lost each other (physically, as in "I don't know where you are") for about 45 minutes. (We should have only been apart for about 2 minutes).

CGIR thought I was sick and sent someone to look for me.

I thought CGIR had found someone else and was blatantly disrespecting me with another person. (We did not know anyone else at the place we went; I thought he just found a random person). I thought I would be asking CGIR to leave that night and starting the process of divorce. I was crying.

When we found each other, I felt bad that I will always have to consider these interpretations of routine events.

I'm sure CGIR felt bad that his wife thought he would have sex with a stranger in a public restroom while she waited outside.

A nice day/night ended in silence.




CGIR likes our anniversary.

I don't like our anniversary. I keep feeling like our wedding was a giant joke on me.

Sometimes I wish I could have a "do-over" wedding, but I know I would only be fooling myself, that for me it would be a meaningless event. It makes me sad that the only person CGIR could promise to be faithful to and mean it, the only person he could have a REAL wedding with is another woman. (Disclaimer: This is my opinion only. I understand that others may be able to feel differently).

Anniversaries suck.

BV

Ours was on the 25th of September. The day after my birthday. Always ignored my birthday in favor of the anniversary.

Now... well now, my birthday is mine, damnit!

I've faced nowhere near the betrayal you have BV... but, yes. Anniversaries suck.

Guess some day, we'll have to make a new one, eh?

Today is my wedding anniversary as well. 14 years. Only I am the one who made our wedding into a giant joke on my BH. Like CGIR, BV, I always liked our anniversary, but even especially so after my A was revealed, b/c I placed new importance on my M...although it was an importance I should have held onto previously, and by then it was too little, too late.

But this year, because of me, today pretty much sucks for me too. And no one to blame but me, as I'm the one who ruined what should have been something special.

I like HHH's suggestion of someday making a new one. I think others on these boards have done so, as our actions as WS's truly tainted the original day. If my BH suggested that to me, I'd do it gladly...but that step, that decision, would be yours, BV, just as it would be any BS's decision to create a new anniversary to somehow honor the restoration of the M.

BV,

I totally understand about it being a joke, that is the way I still feel. I do look back on the reception fondly as it was a lot of fun. But the actual exchanging of the vows, not so fondly. It is hard for me to even pick out a card for that day as they are so "mushy"!

Hang in there,

ba

To anyone who might be following along....

I'm trying (uncharacteristically) a positive post. I will try posting positively for two weeks to see what happens.

The title of this first positive post is: "Nice Things CGIR Did This Weekend."

This weekend, it was unexpectedly snowy where we are. Weather/road conditions were pretty bad. CGIR also has a pretty bad cold.

CGIR drove me to drop off entries for a competition and to pick up tickets for a winter concert I would like to see. Earlier in the week, CGIR went to MANY stores trying to get me the materials I needed to prepare my entries. The items I asked him to get were not available, and he purchased replacements. When I said I didn't like the replacements, he took them back and found what I originally wanted.

CGIR took me out for lunch.

When we got home, large branches had fallen across out driveway, blocking our way. CGIR moved them out of the way while I waited in the (warm, dry) car.

CGIR went back out with me to pick up an entry that wasn't accepted in the competition. He offered to go by himself to pick it up, even though it would have meant a walk through the cold and snow, since I wouldn't be there to run in while he waited. (An aside - as we were picking up my entry, another couple was also there, older than us. The husband (I assume) waited in the car while his obviously disabled wife took a long walk in the snow to pick up her entries. The pick-up location was on the second floor, and she struggled with the stairs as well).

Our power went out. CGIR drove out in pretty unpleasant conditions to get fast food for all of us, including my nephew, who was staying over. The food was mainly for my nephew, as the adults had things to eat. The thing that makes this particularly nice is that we both KNEW in advance that my nephew would refuse to eat the food once it arrived. My mother just felt guilty not having any hot food for him.

The next morning (when it had dropped overnight to 55 degrees indoors), CGIR got up, went to Dunkin Donuts and got everyone coffee.

He went outside to shovel snow, and let me stay in bed and read.

After the power returned, he did the laundry, cleaned the kitchen, ran the dishwasher, dusted, vacuumed the house and cleaned a bathroom. He did not request any participation from me.

This is all actually pretty standard behavior for CGIR.

Shutting up now, before I began my usual process of deconstruction.

BV

Hi Broken,

Brrr!!! Snow........not looking forward to the snow starting..... It is very beautiful though......

I am glad you are approaching the process of looking at the positives, you have a lot of good things in your life, if you focus on those things life will be better.....
Living in today and looking forward to tomorrow gives us all hope, the past days are long gone.......let them be broken.......
Keep posting for the two weeks, just love him for 2 weeks as well, see how happy you can be if you let yourself.........
You are the only one that can make yourself happy.......smile, giggle and just be free .......
I'll be watching for the new positive posts.........we could all use them

Reviving my thread - hard to believe it's been close to a year.

From Pepperband's thread "Using resentment as punishment," on the Recovery forum:


This was a very meaningful post for me, as it clearly stated what I have been feeling.

The tasks listed by indiegirl and oft-cited on the board represent, in my opinion, the WS spouse "cleaning up his/her side of the street." Essential and necessary tasks for the WS, but not necessarily producing a result for the BS.

In a way, like Plan A and personal recovery.


Had to quote this again. YES. EXACTLY. Pepperband, again, THANK YOU, because the way you structured this statement finally helped me realize why I so often feel such a disconnect between me and many of the posters on the board.

I think some BSs CAN and DO feel confident in their ability to discern lies from truth in the future, or they recover this confidence. I don't know why - perhaps it's the quality and nature of their past relationship(s), perhaps it's the quality and nature of their social supports, or perhaps it's just "them."

Anyway, it doesn't matter, because I think a person's tendency to agree or disagree with this statement ("YES!" or "Yes, but...) is one way to predict the likely speed and completeness of his or her recovery, whether it's marital, personal, or both.

I think the confidence to discern lies from truth in the future is crucial to recovery. I also think that this confidence returns so naturally to some people that it doesn't get discussed as a unique issue on the board.

And I think it's why some posters (ME, as an OBVIOUS example, perhaps KGaa, right now? and others) get stuck in the "WHY?" - since we don't have confidence in our own ability, we're looking for confidence in facts - a finite, knowable set of satisfiable sentences.

Hope I've made some sense here - if not, Pepperband, take the post for it's intent.

THANK YOU.

BV

More dark reflections to come....

You are most welcome.

This is my hope...dead on re: lack of confidence in their own ability to discern truth from lies[i] in the future.

My FWW was very good at living a SSL that discerning lies from the truth was impossible. She would look me right in the eyes and lie.

It is very much an issue that I haven't seen explored.

It appears that many of the most seasoned vets focus on the 'new, hard cases' so to speak that pop up here. Yes, many new posters need immediate help but there are others (myself and FWW included) that would find great benefit of the Vets helping us more who are in R.

Actually .......


There is more to this.

I am certain a person, including my spouse, could lie to me convincingly ... but not forever and probably not for long.
After the infidelity roller coaster ride, we become better *sniffers* and our curiosity/suspicions becomes aroused sooner.
We grow more confident in our abilities to ferret out the facts. Because we're experienced. Seasoned. Battle tested, if you will.

Additionally, we all have the ability to gain confidence in ourselves to know we can and will make better decisions ... IF there is a *next time*. We sharpen our antennae and fine tune our *bull-crap-meter" as well as dialing up our "something is amiss radar". These heightened tools can be employed at a moment's notice.

Have confidence that you know what your limit is as well.
If you are not confident in that, you have some work to do.

I agree that my husband could no longer conduct an affair and lie to me about it for any length of time. And, as I have told him, should there be a next time, I will not waste my time with do-it-yourself methods; I'm going straight to the professionals.

And I don't think he's having an affair now, nor interested in finding one.

My current problem is that I need his feedback on some personal things, but when he gives it, I don't trust it. What's his motivation? Is he telling me what he honestly thinks and feels, or is he just telling me what he thinks I want to hear so I'll shut up?

Here is just one example:

Right now I'm having a big problem with body image (mine). (Not a new problem, but an exacerbation of a long-standing problem). Basically, I'm not capable of judging how I look any more. I need some EVIDENCE, as my former therapist would say, that my opinions are inaccurate. The only person I can ask is my husband.

I need him to answer me honestly, without SPIN. ("You're beautiful inside," "You're beautiful to me," etc. don't work for me. I want his HONEST, unvarnished opinion about how others perceive my physical appearance). And I need for his opinion to be consistent and reliable. Over the past 30 years, he's told me everything from I'm unattractive and my personality makes me ever more so to I'm beautiful when I wake up in the morning with flat hair and mascara under my eyes. I need a RELIABLE opinion and to ensure reliability, I have to ask questions many times and many ways.

I can't trust his answers. I have no confidence in my ability to determine if he's telling the truth or lying for his own benefit (i.e., to shut me up so we can "have a good time").

And this is just one example.

Does he really want an intimate relationship with me, which requires honesty? Or does he want a room-mates with benefits situation, which requires politeness and making sure not to hurt each other's feelings with say, honesty?

I'd love to ask him, but I can't.

It's pointless, as I have no confidence in my ability to discern truth from a lie.

Kind of see what I'm getting at?

Hoping this made some sense -

BV

P.S. And, for the record, this type of situation makes me RESENTFUL.

BV, there is a long response from me ..... coming soon to a theater near you.
I want you to RELAX for now. Every 30 minutes I want you to take 10 deep breaths in through your nose (s-l-o-w-l-y) and exhale through your pursed lips (also s-l-o-w-l-y). Think of a calming word while you do this (I use the word PEACE). See how long you can make the exhale last. The longer the better.

The major vibe I get from reading you is anxiousness.
You are fixed on physical attractiveness .... meanwhile back at the ranch ..... your anxiousness makes you less attractive.

Why, yes - my middle name, in fact.

There's a reason for the increased anxiety. (Below is the main reason, but the physical attractiveness threads were also freaking me out, especially unwritten's. Her husband reportedly said he wants her to look like an exercise video model. Another poster chimed in that his attraction toward his wife took a major hit when she gained 15 pounds. I know there's more to the thread, but that was depressing).

CGIR and I are going on vacation tomorrow - the first time in six years.

There's no marital reason we waited this long - the current depression, CGIR's unemployment and my needing to work put traveling on the back burner.

D-Day #5 occurred on our last vacation. Same time of year, same setting. I remember sitting, looking at the water, and saying to CGIR (thinking his "EA" was over and we were doing great), "This is going to be the best vacation we've ever had."

Ha.

(We also almost drowned on this vacation; that was actually more fun than the D-Day that occurred the next morning. During which I discovered only a FRACTION of what I would find out 4 years later).

Now we're going back to the scene of the crime, as it were.

During a D-Day, I asked CGIR what was so great about the OW - what their "10s" were. OW #1 - PA - CGIR said he was proud to be with her. OW #2 - conversation - CGIR said it was "perfect" and he "loved" talking to her. Also, OW #2 had a better figure than me; she was "better proportioned."

My PA rates a "4" (but at my best, I move up to a "6") and my conversation is "not the greatest, but okay." Also, there's an activity that CGIR did with OW #2 while traveling that he will not do with me (not sexual, btw) because it he liked doing it with her but does not like doing it with me.

So, off to the scene of a D-Day, to compete with (and lose to) the OW.*

Yeah, me.

BV

(*Yes, I know, I know. But right now, cognition and emotion are not in sync).

(**What's MY 10, you ask? I have three: I'm frugal, hard-working, and stuck around regardless of what CGIR did).




CGIR

(Warning: Sad and venting. If you are low on patience today, stop reading here).


Twenty-five years today.

Some thoughts:

I regret that I got married.

I regret that I did not leave in 2006.

I wish I had known then what I know now.

Trying to find a way to live with the decisions I made in the past.


I was reading the new thread by twocents with maybe more empathy than most.


I feel like my husband placed a huge weight on me, and now can't take it back. As we walk on, him happy with a bounce in his step and me struggling and stumbling, he says to me, "Don't worry! You'll get used to it! Just keep looking ahead!"

(I always find encouraging someone else is a tad easier than doing the work).

Making no sense to anyone, probably. Sorry - just sad.


Happy anniversary to me.

BV

BV he is supposed to take the weight from you.

What is his plan to make you happy?

All I hear is a plan to struggle

Why return to the 'scene of the crime'?

Why go back to where you had any dday for any vacation?

x 2

Sounds like trigger fest hell rather than a vacation.


but that was funny in a not so funny way.

You can still decide otherwise, bv. You do have a choice. Staying in a marriage after infidelity is not supposed to be a death sentence.

BV, have you shared these feelings with your husband?

I will not mention what we euphemistically refer to as "the past," either directly or indirectly.

Wish me luck.

BV