Marriage Builders
Posted By: Harmony2010 Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/14/10 02:01 PM
Hi Guys

I have been posting on here for about 3 months now and have another thread running.

I went to Plan B on Monday. I hope you can pick up who I am.

I only just realised that my H took my laptop and my thread will be in the history, he is not that IT literate I just want to be on the safe side so have started a new thread.

Constant hope you still have crystal ball?

I am doing ok, had difficult moment today, when I realised that H may be living with OW. I must say I can't believe how many desperate women out there, who are so willing to chase after a married man. She has pursued him relentlessly, fine if she is willing to share him wtih someone else, I am not. Also the extent to which my H has lied about his contact with her. He only said recently that she won't leave him alone. It has hit me a little today that H may be living with her but have followed no contact rule and have not driven by to find out his whereabouts. H will know the way to get to me is to cut off contact lets see how long he can stick to it.

I have no idea where this is going to go, but I just don't want to buckle under the withdrawal symptoms. I want to stay strong.

Seeking - I need to get my yellow pad out, maybe a at the weekend. I have a girls night out planned tomorrow looking forward to getting dressed up and going out on the town.

Constant - Saw your last post, H way to punish me initially will be to get a new girl and that seems the route he is taking. I found some broken things in the bin today so when he moved his stuff out he must have smashed some stuff.

Any Vets advice to ensure that the people who have been supporting my thread come and find me!!

Hi Harmony,

nice new name:-)

So he has been in the house?

Have you had the chance to get some legal advice about changing the locks yet? I don't know of course what the law says about it but it seems that if you want to protect your property after he has moved out and don't feel safe while he has the key and can come and go and smash things, it shouldn't be the problem to change the locks on that grounds. I hope you can find some good advise.


As far as changing your locks, it is not illegal in any state of the union to change your own door locks. We have advised hundreds of people over the years to do this with no issues.

Usually the WS does nothing when they find out, but in 2-3 cases the WS calls his lawyer and the BS' lawyer simply responds that the presence of the WS is too painful. Usually that is accepted because the WS does not really want to go before a judge and have to answer to the cruelty he has inflicted upon the BS.

In one case the infuriated WS called the police and since it was 12am, the police made the BS let him in. That is the only time I know of this happening. Another poster, believer's H, tried the same stunt and she was to able to block him with an emergency court order.

But, again, the majority of WS's do nothing.
Hi niitse

How are you? No he has not been in the house he took the laptop with him. Just realised that MB thread may be in the history.

Had a busy couple of days at work, but going to phone the solicitor in the morning to get an appt. H has also gone dark haven't heard a peep, which is just aswell. He is going to hate me packing up his beloved office, he will be really mad. He has not come back to get any of his clothes so he must have been out and bought some new pants?!!

Weird, but feel a bit worried about him. I know that's silly but he has been all over the place the last few months and now he has gone dead quiet, I don't want any drama I just think he can be quite fragile at times. I am sure he is fine.

Still doing ok, have those moments where I feel like I am having a bad dream and i am going to wake up there horrible. I haven't cried yet, keep thinking of what JL said, what are you crying for, the marriage that was or the marriage you wanted to have?

Thanks melody for the heads up re the locks.

Guilt has started to kick in about kicking out DH. He is going to be so annoyed that I did that because he runs his business from home. Major love buster.

Feeling bad right now. I had affair, I tried to sort things out, he rejected me, I pull away, he came to me needing me, and then he disrespects me and has multiple affairs. This cycle has been ongoing for 18 months.

Just read that Chilean thread about how some spouses are so in love that they take a long long time to get over it. Yikes. Feeling bad right now. He is going to dark on me, for a long time. Have horrible vision of sending him text tomorrow saying cone and get
your stuff and his mother calling how dare you ?do you know what you have done to
my son he is in a really bad way and now you are throwing all his stuff out. Hmmm.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
He is going to dark on me, for a long time. Have horrible vision of sending him text...

Best of luck on your Plan B. Remember that it's only very partially about your wayward spouse, forcing the other person -- or people, in this case -- to meet all of his emotional needs.

It's much more about you. About learning how to live on your own again. About learning how to live without that other person in your life. About preserving what little love you have left for him on the chance he may return, hat in hand and remorseful, ready to rebuild. About realizing you'll be just fine even if that never happens.

And you will be just fine. In fact, you'll almost certainly be better off than he will. Keep up your boundaries so that you will not be tempted by other men and allow your Plan B to run until the time you've set for it to expire. If you focus on being the best person you can be without worrying about anybody other than you and your family, your focus will pay off in spades.

You can do this. Be open to the possibility of reconciliation with your husband, but don't budge on your basic requirements for recovery that you outlined(?) in your Plan B letter.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/15/10 02:16 AM
Harmony, you need to block all of his venues of contacting you. You shouldn't know that he has tried to contact you.

As I suggested to you before, pack his stuff, put it out and get your IMs to tell him that he can get his stuff. Or, better yet, get someone else to bring his stuff to his mother's house and have IMs send a message telling him it is there.

You are going to go through withdrawal over the next few days and weeks. Just hold tight, don't contact him and understand that you set your clock back to day 1 everytime you do.
Hi

I felt a bit low for the first time this morning. Couldn't stop dreaming about H and OW. That H was in love with her, and he was excited about seeing her and him being really indifferent with me, weird.

Anyway was sat upstairs in my bedroom and saw H drive past a few times in his car, looking at the house. He must have seen my car there and drove away. He didn't see me. Anyway about 10 mins later he sent me a text saying

'Hi Harmony, tiler is about 10 minutes away to do the bathroom. Are you there to let him in?'

I ignored his text. He knows I am in, my car is outside and the lights are on, he just drove past, has he lost the plot? Also, why is he organising a tiler when he has moved out? When I spoke to the tiler, apparantly H told him that he will meet him at the house, I am starting to wander if he thinks I am serious.

Shaking. Packing the rest of his stuff up when I finish tonight and will leave outside the house for him to pick up tomorrow, and if he doesnt come and get it will put into storage.

Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/15/10 09:15 AM
He is not use to the idea of not being able to contact you at will.
Do not answer his messages. Have him go thru the IM and do not inform the IM that he contacted you.
It is hard, but your M seems very broken. You had A and he is having multiple ones. Is that correct?
You need time to awaken and find a path that will bring you to your hapiness alone. YOu need to be happy alone in order to be happy with other people.
YOu WH has to figure out the same. That is why we were put on this earth. To awaken to a life that is meaningful.
Keep posting
Blessing
Hi

Thanks Antena, you are right:

Originally Posted by atena
You need time to awaken and find a path that will bring you to your hapiness alone. YOu need to be happy alone in order to be happy with other people.

I don't really know how to do this and he has only been gone a few days. The sadness comes in waves, but I also feel peace away from the situation. I had a handy man in today to fix loads of things that I have been waiting on H to do do, such as leak under the sink, put up mirror ect..He has done it all for me, and I am concentrating on making my home look nice. I went to the shops at lunch and bought loads of healthy nice food and treated myself to some beautiful flowers. The house will look lovely and I will feel settled.

A GF has invited me upto London for a party, not sure I want to go, for some reason I want to be near home. I guess its a comfort thing.

I need to start planning some things, I kept my diary empty due to H situation.

I now have a dilemna with a Xmas work party for end of Nov. Partners have been invited. Since I am quite new there don't really want to go on my own, and don't really want to say anything to people about the situation.

Nothing drastic, just something to sort out.

You know what though, knowing that you are living by your boundaries feels cool. I had a moment of, I removed someone who had consistently violated them, and it feels quite powerful.

Harmony x
Hello Harmony,

it is nice to read that you keep yourself busy, redoing and fixing the house is surely very comforting. You are doing great, keep it up!

London party is surely one of the extraordinary precaution issue for you, so I guess you're right to hesitate. I wouldn't go if I were you. You have so many things that make you very vulnerable right now: you are a former wayward, you have suffered quite an abuse over your Plan A, and now you are alone, in Plan B, this all may want you (I'm not saying you will) to have a leaning shoulder. The company Xmas party is the same. I avoid any parties like plague, and only go there when my H is with me and we are both enthusiastic about it.




Hello Niitse

Yes I seem to be doing OK. Although I am worried I have had a boost today after my H attempts to contact me. Not sure. I was starting to get worried about HIM. Oh well.

I am slightly worried that I am going to spend a lot of time on my own, my plans for tonight have been cancelled. However, I don't really feel ready for making too many plans. I just feel llike doing 'gentle' things like going out for dinner, meeting for a quick drink, lunch that sort of thing.

I think my H does not think I am serious. I ask him to take all of his stuff, and he only takes a few bits. I ask him not contact me, only through IM, he sends me a texct message. I think he has got use to me calming down and forgiving him half the time. NOt this time.

Will get IM to send him text tomorrow to pick up the rest of his stuff.

Constant, Just Learning, Tom, Seeking, I hope you get to catch my thread soon. It would be good to hear your words.

Harmony
I was glad to see your post, Harmony - have been thinking about you going into Plan B and wondering how things were going.

Stay dark, stay strong. You can do this. You've learned a lot and you are a strong woman! I'm glad you are taking steps to do things for you. I wish I had some great constructive advice to offer, but just wanted you to know I am sending thoughts and prayers your way!
Posted By: reading Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/15/10 03:54 PM
Personally, I would take the trip to London and plan on going to the party solo.

Change of scenery is good during the period of early B when you are grief stricken in large waves. Just have someone keep an eye on your home and make sure H doesn't know you are gone. If he wants to rebuild already, he can let you know through your IM.

Tell people at the work party, if asked (they might not ask) that you are "here alone" if pressed "newly separated from your H"

I found and still find being social and adventurous to be the best way to recover my own spirit and move through this and onward.
I think you could be right reading, I am concerned about being stuck at home too much. From this morning, it seems as though my H is driving past checking and I don't want him to think I am sat in all the time. Also, tomorrow I don't want to be around when he picks the rest of his stuff up.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/15/10 07:03 PM
You shouldn't be around when he picks up his stuff, and he shouldn't be able to get in of at all possible.

Have you blocked his numbers? I know that you can't control if he drives by your house, but STOP LOOKING OUT THERE. You are trying to catch glimpses of him to keep you going. Thing is, you will need to go through withdrawal yourself to be able to focus on your healing. You can do this.
Thanks Scotland

I think I can do this, I am feeling OK, but am still scared if I am honest. I am doing better than I thought I would.

I honestly must have looked out of the window and about 2 mins later his truck was parked at the end of the road watching the house.

I haven't blocked his numbers, I feel like this is letting go, weird right. OK I will do this.

I still can't believe that I have been so stupid as to not realise he has still been actively seeing the OW's. To clarify there have been 4 OW.

OW 1 - 6 week fling when I moved out April 2009 - girl fron golf club works behind the bar. A lot younger, totally doted on him, they saw each other last Summer then stayed in touch as 'friends'. When H found out about the A earlier this year, she became a'friend again'. I complete believed H when he said he didn't want a rship with her when we were separated (to be honest she wasn't attractive enough for my superficial H) and when she found out he started seeing someone else, she couldn't handle it so said that she no longer wanted to be 'friends' with my H. I think she had a crush on him. He led her on.

OW 2 - 6 week fling April 2009 - same time as girl from golf club. Mum of 2, separated from H a year when she met my H, slightly older than him. H said she was 'nuts' kept crying on him, had middle child syndrome, was on anti depressants, would not leave him alone, use to come round and do all his washing and ironing for him and that she expected him to pay for the kids. They have obviously stayed friends, this is where my H was on Monday night when I saw his truck parked outside OW house. This is the brazen over confident one, i think she thinks she is rescuing H from wicked witch wife. This is who H was with on Monday night and maybe now?

OW 3 - 4 week fling after finding out about A in March 2010. He said she was boring.

OW 4 - local waitress - he said she was nuts, called H quite early on her boyfriend, he said he had to remind her he was still married.

All of the above justified in his case, as he verbally told me the M was over, even though he was still living with me. Foggy, foggy, foggy.

Writing this has just reminded me that I need to step Plan B up a notch! Can't believe the friendly tone of his text today!!

I don;t even know where he is living.....Just aswell. God I need to get over this guy.

Secret to share, one of my major fears of letting him go, is that he will get OW pregnant. I think I would crumble, so I am controlled a little by fear, nowhere as much as I use to. Helped by boundary work with JL.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/15/10 08:20 PM
I too worry about my WH getting OW pregnant. Now, if it happened, it would suck, but it is what it is.

In my case, my WH moved right in with OW. I sometimes look outside when he picks up and drops off the kids. It started really sucking for me because I would miss him more. Also, when I would see OW with him, ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh. I sometimes do still look, but I get mad at myself for doing so. I know what it does to me. It makes me still focus on him.

Just stay dark and not just in you not answering his texts or calls but also by you not knowing that he is calling or driving by. How do you think you are going to feel when he stops calling, messaging or driving by?
God Scotland - you are one brave woman. I can understand the ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

OK I understand why I need to block him now, for when he does stop contacting me.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
PAzaaaM!__-- What is this? AH my crystal ball has zoned in on...Ok enough corny jokes.

In every one of your descriptions of OW he describes them as
"nuts", and they all chased him and he broke thier heart. Now which is more beleivable,
1. That he is such an awesome man that level headed women automatically believed because of his honesty and integrity that, they desparatly needed to comfort him because you are such a witch and he never did anything wrong,,..or

2. That he spun a story that was so full of crap and said that" all that I want is someone who loves me and she did this and that" while...a bunch of weak minded and desparate women willing and eager to buy a load of crap or just plain slezazes....fell for his looks and charisma? Beacuse they were as dumb as a post or played the relationship/lie game.

?

That should sum up what I think has been goin on a long time. Don't want to hurt you but he probably tells them your "nuts" too.

Difference is, he married you and I don't think it was by accident he picked you. He knows what you stand for, and that given a chance, you would fight for what is right, as you are.

See my problem with him? He knows better and even how to manipulate because he does know what buttons to push. I have known a lot of these guys and women like you allways eventually figure it out and if the guy doesn't, they lose the girl.

You are doing good in your plan B, don't waiver. Follow all the advice Scotland has said and others about IMs and trying to avoid him. Did you post the letter that you sent with his stuff here so we can see it? Maybe it will help us understand what you told him about what it will take to reconcile your relationship and if it was clear and detailed enough.

BTW, that "tiler" ruse was tricky enough to get in and see you wasn't it? He knows you would not make a scene with both of them at the door. I expect more childish crap from him. Keep insisting he grow up or he wont. Then he can look for someone else to play relationship with, you are working for a life together, not playing for an ego boost.

I am not trying to get you down about your H. I am sure as anybody he has the capacity to respect and love you. I think he is infatuated with himself right now, and is more justified by your A so is using it.

You just keep working on you and demanding the best because with him in the state of mind he seems to be will get away with whatever he can. Remember what I said about "why" he does that? His controlling Mom and passive Dad? How manipulation and IB was all he knew?

I hope he sees what he is doing, goes to an IC, and starts working MB so you can have the husband you know he can be. Its up to you now to make him tow the line and you will need help doing it.

Talk to your Dad lately about how strong you are becoming? It will do his heart good.

I would avoid those partys like the plauge right now for the same reasons others said above. Movies with solid girlfriends or married couples. don't put yourself out there without good protection.

BZZZZzzzzump...crystal ball just blew up.. guess I will have to rely on honest and open communication and common sense now. Dang..
Hi Constant

Glad you found me, just wanted to be on the safe side...Hope Just Learning and Jessitaylor picks up too. I don't know what I would do without this place, it has kept me so grounded and focused on my boundaries.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
That should sum up what I think has been goin on a long time. Don't want to hurt you but he probably tells them your "nuts" too.


Yes I think your right. That hurts, partly because he would say bad stuff about me, but what does that say about him, he would lie to get a woman into bed? Oh well.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Did you post the letter that you sent with his stuff here so we can see it? Maybe it will help us understand what you told him about what it will take to reconcile your relationship and if it was clear and detailed enough.


I have a confession to make, my Plan B letter was not quite MB text book. I gave him a 'text book ' MB Plan B letter a couple of weeks ago when he stayed out the night, and I have repeated the conditions of reconciliation when we were 'together'. I will post the Plan B letter, but go easy on the 2x4, as I am a bit fragile at the mo. The points of reconciliation I made clear on numerous occasions no contact with OW, honest commitment to MB principles and no IB. I willpost the Plan B letter I gave him on Monday.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
BTW, that "tiler" ruse was tricky enough to get in and see you wasn't it? He knows you would not make a scene with both of them at the door. I expect more childish crap from him. Keep insisting he grow up or he wont. Then he can look for someone else to play relationship with, you are working for a life together, not playing for an ego boost.


My H didn't come into the house with the tiler, he just knew I was at home at sent me a text to say - are you in?!! Anyway, I know what the text was all about now, it was him testing the waters to see if I had calmed down.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
I hope he sees what he is doing, goes to an IC, and starts working MB so you can have the husband you know he can be. Its up to you now to make him tow the line and you will need help doing it.

Talk to your Dad lately about how strong you are becoming? It will do his heart good.

I would avoid those partys like the plauge right now for the same reasons others said above. Movies with solid girlfriends or married couples. don't put yourself out there without good protection.


Thanks Constant, I do hope so too, so much. Going to phone my Dad, as I have gone dark on my family aswell this week, sometimes hearing their voices brings on the tears.

General Plan B update:

This morning woke up, and spoke to my sister on the phone and afterwards my first set of tears came, I think it was a mixture of relief I was out of a toxic situation and disappointment.

I dragged myself out of the house and went for a run along the seafront as it was sunny. When I got back to the house, my H truck was parked outside.

I went in the house, and ignored him, and walked straight upto my bedroom. He did a sarcastic laugh, then said morning, I ignored him. A few minutes later the conversation went like this:

Me - Have you come to get the rest of your stuff?

DH - No Harmony, I haven't. What do I do? I haven't got anywhere to go.

Me - You can go to OW house. You are free to do what you choose.

DH - Your overreacting, I only dropped round there...

Me - Leave the house! Leave the house! (firm - calm voice)

Then I went and got in the shower, the whole time I didn't even look at him.

When I got out of the shower, he had moved his stuff from the hall into the office and had gone.

OK, need to get my head together on what to do next. I have got solicitors appt next week. I was thinking get IM to contact him to tell him to move his stuff out, or I can just take straight to the storage unit and post a key to his mothers.

I knew he would not go without a fight. I knew that he went dark on me this week, expecting me to back down and have him back. The text yesterday was to test the waters to see if I had calmed down...

OK, please go easy on me, I know I should have changed the locks but I need legal advice first.

Also, I have an appt with SH on Tuesday, do you think this is still worthwhile?
Sounds like you did fine. yeah he is waiting for you to be controllable.

You can change the locks, move his stuff out and give IMs the news where he can find his stuff. Moving it back to his office was real cute. Maybe OW will let him have his "Base of operations" over there, yeah ,right.

Sounds like he is quite an operator, actor, and probably feels totally justified in just about anything he does, but not wasting time on his diagnosis, let whatever counselor he finds, if he ever does, do that.

The point is this is what I think attracts women to him, his confidance and good looks, along with a sob story. Such a poor boy, and all he needs is someone to love him, and thats all he really is willing to offer too.

You have been patient waiting for him to mature past that point, but he allways has been able to dodge it somehow, using his talents and attributes as a talker to stay the same. What kind of friends does he have? Are they single guys? I bet they are.

Heres the crux of what I am saying. He doesn't have to change to maintain what he believes is important in his life, which is his relatioships and what they do for him. His presence is all he gives besides the impression he is seriuos about you, or anyone elses emotional needs. He is comfortable with that, and has lots of reasons why he can be that way, like a scared little boy.

He can allways find some comfort with relationships that don't require much sacrifice or go outside of his plans, and when that relationship falls thru, he is talented enough to find another one. So he keeps people at arms length and at the same time they feel sorry for this poor hurt guy. Very attractive to many women, for a while.

How much of that crap he is selling does he really believe? Who sold him that? Has it become his identity now? If so, then he must think he is unique and deserving of a pass in what it takes to have real relationships based on truth, honesty and sharing because he is an exception.

The awesome truth is there is no exception that replaces what those things do for us in relationships to unite us and both to grow together as we do ourselves. A Marriage is a place to continue to grow with someone, not a comfortable place of complacency where we are all done with supporting each other and making each other feel special. Marrige is not a task to fufill but a journey with someone else where the people are different but the same rules of love and relationship apply to bring out a unique marriage.

Two unique people + Love, Respect, and MB principles = Unique marraige.


SH is the best one to give you advice not only to help your marriage but to make sure you stay healthy and get stronger personally.

I have hope for everyone but I feel like H will stay in his comfort zone for a long time unless something forces him out of it. We are all hoping Plan B will do it but he might be seriuosly stuck mentally and emotionally and unable to get it right. He has work to do to sort himself out also. You have to set a timeline for yourself. So you can beleive and know you are in control of your future, for how long you will wait.

It will be up to him to prove what he wants. You take care of you.
Hello Constant

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Sounds like you did fine. yeah he is waiting for you to be controllable.


Thank you Constant, its wasn't easy, starting to lose hope, and I am afraid for him. I think he is losing it, he is out of control and its horrible to watch. The more I am in control of myself, making good decisions, living by my boundaries, the more I see him floundering around struiggling. He looked a mess this morning and I have to say, I am really concerned about him, it has taken the wind out of me. I am still dark, but am concerned.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
You have been patient waiting for him to mature past that point, but he allways has been able to dodge it somehow, using his talents and attributes as a talker to stay the same. What kind of friends does he have? Are they single guys? I bet they are.


Crystal ball again, yes they are mainly single. I am good friends with them, but they have not had successful relationships. He does have married friends, but not as many.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
I have hope for everyone but I feel like H will stay in his comfort zone for a long time unless something forces him out of it. We are all hoping Plan B will do it but he might be seriuosly stuck mentally and emotionally and unable to get it right. He has work to do to sort himself out also. You have to set a timeline for yourself. So you can beleive and know you are in control of your future, for how long you will wait.

It will be up to him to prove what he wants. You take care of you.


I only have hope that Plan B will force him out of it. I guess I have to decide how long Plan B is for, at some point I will need to move forward with my life. Today is the day after seeing him this morning, that I have lost a lot of hope. I am frightened for him. Early this week he went dark on me expecting me to call him, then he tried the sympathy vote this morning, the next stage is going to be revenge, maybe?

I am taking care of myself, eating well, ect.. I went to my sisters and her husbands tonight for dinner, and back home at 9pm. It is good that I dont feel I have to go out and prove a point by partying ect....

One point, when I went to my sisters, they both bought up the subject, wanted to know what was going on with hubbie. I gave them a brief overview, and that was ok, then my BIL started to say well you know you need to protect you finances and have you thought about this, thought about that? I said yes I have those areas covered, and getting good advice. I said its more emotional support I need, my BIL then went onto say its only because people care and I said I know that. Then he carried on by saying, don't be so defensive Harmony, don't be so serious, don't be this don't be that (he wanted to pass his opinion on what I should be doing). My boundaries started to kick in (respect for someone elses wishes), and I said I appreciate your concern and that others care, but the only support I really need right now is emotional support and for people to just phone and invite me out to do things is all I need. I have solicitors and my own ideas about financial matters. He didn't like it at all, but I do feel that if it gets to a D, that the worst thing that can happen is families start putting their opinions in about financial matters, ect..It is between the couple. It would be the best thing if it didn't get to that.

H wanted to try and make it clear today, that nothing was going on between him and OW, yeah right. However, I wander, what is all his recent bahviour about? I don't believe he wants to be with the OW, otherwise he wouldn't be coming back here. I fear that his behaviour has been so poor, he is full of justification by my A, I only hope that Plan B can make him realise this. If I am honest I remember being in that position too, in denial and full of self justification, who wants to face their horrendous choices? Is the way he has cruelly treated me, the only way he knew how to deal with my A? Or is it because he is a bad person....

It was only when I discovered MB that I knew how to deal with the situation, as underneath it all, I knew I truly loved my H. I still do. I hope he comes back to me, in the way that can make this M work.

I hope he is OK.
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/16/10 08:58 PM
Quote
Sounds like he is quite an operator, actor, and probably feels totally justified in just about anything he does, but not wasting time on his diagnosis, let whatever counselor he finds, if he ever does, do that.

The point is this is what I think attracts women to him, his confidance and good looks, along with a sob story. Such a poor boy, and all he needs is someone to love him, and thats all he really is willing to offer too.

You have been patient waiting for him to mature past that point, but he allways has been able to dodge it somehow, using his talents and attributes as a talker to stay the same. What kind of friends does he have? Are they single guys? I bet they are.

Heres the crux of what I am saying. He doesn't have to change to maintain what he believes is important in his life, which is his relatioships and what they do for him. His presence is all he gives besides the impression he is seriuos about you, or anyone elses emotional needs. He is comfortable with that, and has lots of reasons why he can be that way, like a scared little boy.

He can allways find some comfort with relationships that don't require much sacrifice or go outside of his plans, and when that relationship falls thru, he is talented enough to find another one. So he keeps people at arms length and at the same time they feel sorry for this poor hurt guy. Very attractive to many women, for a while.

Every post I read today is a precise description of my WH. It is truly opening my eyes as to what he really is.I think Harmonie's and my WH are brothers. Anyways....Thank you ConstantP, you did an incredible analysis of this type of wayward. Incredibly accurate. ANd yes my WH's friends are either single or in very loose M.
blessing
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/16/10 09:05 PM
Quote
his confidance and good looks, along with a sob story.
Quote
he is talented enough to find another one

Yes, My WH is also very good looking and that is the ticket to why they can always find another woman's shoulder to cry to...

blessing
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/16/10 09:19 PM
Harmony, the only thing I would worry about is if he never sees the light of the day. the fact that he is a mess is what we wish for him because only if he hits bottom will be wake up.
These kind of guys have to feel the pain all the way to come to their senses because they are so cut out from their feelings and from the feelings of others, their sense of entitlement is beyond what we can imagine.
Do not worry about him, he should be on his way to come to his senses or to be lost for a good part of his life.
blessing
Thank you Antena - I know you are right. Its just hard to cut someone off who you love, as you know. I have read you thread and I admire you, you are very strong and couragous.

I still thinks, he believes I am not serious and the more I reinforce it, the lower he will go.

Anyone know when Plan B is having the desired effect? I feel surprisingly ok, although I am worried that this is due to WH attempt to keep contacting me and the fact that he doesn't really want to leave. Is the way H is reacting a good sign? Does it mean he is starting to feel the pain of not having me?

I would only consider reconciliation based on a set of terms that I have discussed with H..

I miss him, can you tell? Not the monster he has been the last 18 months

Night all xx

Posted By: tcp Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/16/10 11:46 PM
i know this is off the subject but i am new and would like to know how you post a thread on here
TCP, Go to the main forum page. Forum list on the top of this page. Choose the appropiate forum area as in . Surviving an affair or marrige builders 101, then click on it.

Then when you see the list of topics, on the top of the page on the left hand side find, new topic and click on it.

The rest is simple.
The hardest part you will probably go through, and I hope you don't have to, is if and when H refuses to recognize after a long plan B that HE is the one with blinders on. He might just keep on insisting its all your fault and he was great while he waits for YOU to come to your senses. He wants it to be like it was.

I feel that women are catylsts to bring about change to a lot of men who really want to stay the same. Men who need to be in control for security inside are not allways wrong mind you, but there needs to be a balance. Going out to the opera or trying new things together should be welcomed even though a guy might be closed minded in the past about opera. Moving to haiti to help the earthquake victims when you have no resources is a wonderful compassionate gesture but probably not something most average guys would jump at.

This is part of relationships where we keep each other grounded through communication while appreciating what is behind the suggested change instead of disrespectful dismissal of someones ideas or dreams. Works both ways too.

It seems mainly a female thing that they see the potential in a man and then expect them to live up to it. That can be a good thing but what about who they really are instead? Most of us fall in love and on average the "in love" state of our chemistry stays for about two years. If we don't work on the relationship and discover all of each others weaknesses and strengths, along with what we plan to do to protect each other and build each other up, the original chemistry can wear off and we end up disapointed. We can blame them, but really we let ourselves down through unrealistic expectations. The significant other is still loveable, we have just never really loved who they were. Can we be happy with our mates even though they are not perfect? We thought,(felt), so at one time, but we start in on changing them.

This isn't a statement trying to say "just stay and wait and no matter what they do...blah blah" Its just an explanation of how many get married with the best intentions but do not take the next step when they realize much of what they hoped for was based on assumtion and sometimes wishful thinking. Good positive thoughts maybe but not clear honest communication that must be maintained even as we realize them, in the moment, new to us. Most want it to stay they way it was and/or protect what they had, when something even more preciuos can come from facing change together.

As we get older ENs will change, values will be changed or defined more clearly, and we will physically change also. We will hopefully look back and laugh at ourselfves and be thankful for those who cared about us enough to put up with us in our fear and insecurity as we matured. Men more than women will fight the forces that make them grow up and face the unknown future when it pertains to them changing how they look at things it seems to me. I think its fear of the unknown, and the feeling of security when thier wife loves them that keeps them from changing. She loved me once like that, she said I was perfect and supported me and I don't want that to change. I felt perfect.

I have been trying all my life to depend just on Gods love and I know he knows I am not perfect. He loves me anyway but I also have attempted to be acceptable and prove my love for others and thereby they will love me back. Its an egotistical and unfair thing to try to be anybodys everything. They need to experience Gods love through His consequences more than they need our education about it. Can you love them anyway? Sure but there are ways you love a child and you expect them to be just what they are because they act like one. The love experienced in marriage is one of equal importance just as God does not hold a man as more important than a woman. Read around the site, there are a number of discussions about men having just as many emotions as women. Those emotions need his guidance too.

H needs to submit his mind and heart to something other than his feelings and untill he does he will struggle with stability and maturity. Much of the bible is taken out of context and misrepresented but the words are Gods mind toward us. His heart is that he takes the time to show us what love is because he Himself is love. You can use whatever form of learning there is out there to rise above the trappings of our emotions but in all the things I have looked into nothing has spoke more to my heart than how he died for me, as I must die to myself, in order to change who I am where it really counts. I go there kicking and screaming all the way, stubbornly wanting to do it all myself and arguing with truth because I am afraid of losing control untill I finally give up and agree I must have faith and agree with God.

Now that I have said that I also say that the world is set up to lead us away from the self realization of our weakness in our humanity. We want to be important, special, almost untouchable and we believe this farce easily when people look up to us. We forget, if we ever realized it that love is a gift and we think its from people, that love is sex, adulation, and that we deserve it. Its a gift when we are shown that is not true, and its an action based on the givers capacity to love the unlovely and it originates from outside our emotions. Love is not a feeling. Feelings follow actions or you are out of control of yourself and selfcentered. Because people are all built to be that way, and need to love themselves to be healthy, they also need to learn what it is so they can love themselves without useing others. So the source where they can find the discipline of actions and know they are loving? The authority outside themselves, They must serve love to produce it in thier lives, and they don't get credit for creating it either. Us humans don't have it in us naturally to give without expecting something in return, and we are allways balancing and comparing and judging the fairness of it. Whats in it for me? says the taker part of us. How can I love my mate today? says the giver. Its real, its human, and its responsible as people who should be loving others as we are loved by God to expect fair treatment as we give it to them.


We are not supposed to let ourselves be mistreated because God lives in us and is also expressed through us. He knows our frame, and what we can endure, and we are not as strong as Him. We were never supposed to rob others from the consequences of thier poor choices either. He will deal with them.

So what the point is that the most important relationship anyone can have will be a relationship with truth and light and that it will reflect in thier relationships with people.

If your H continues to hide in the darkness there are plenty of places he can hide, and he seems like he is liking feeling sorry for himself and being a playboy. In the end his figleaf does not cover him from God seeing who he is and the consequences will still be given to him. Separation from maturity and relationship. For his own good, and to protect yourself, don't go back unless he breaks from his selfish ways. I don't want you to suffer this emotional setup either. You are just beginning to learn to love yourself, and that its not just what you feel either. Untill he is ready to submit to learning he will spin in circles. You though have opened your mind and are going forward.

Please post what you asked him to do if he EVER wants to be with you again. If it isn't clear we will help you draft a follow up letter. It might be a while till he smartens up, if ever, you want him to be thinking about what he needs to do in detail during the dark plan B. If he isn't willing to work for you, you don't need him anyways. Let him stay in the playpen and you get on with your life and learning.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Anyone know when Plan B is having the desired effect? I feel surprisingly ok, although I am worried that this is due to WH attempt to keep contacting me and the fact that he doesn't really want to leave. Is the way H is reacting a good sign? Does it mean he is starting to feel the pain of not having me?..

He is missing not having you yes. But how did he treat you when he did? His missing you is what we call part of the withdrawl of having his cake and eating it too. In your case I would say he is missing using you and owning you, not loving and caring for you. Big difference also.

I can only hope he will break down and seek counsel for himself and your marriage as quikly as possible.
Morning all,

Still feeling strong about not maintaining contact, although his desired effect on me yesterday has worked a little.

The 'I don't have anywhere to go ' line has had its impact. I do feel some guilt, and pain for him, ofcourse I know that was its purpose. I don't believe for one minute that he wants to be with the OW more than what it was before (one night stand/occasional drink), I believe it was about revenge, punishment and that because I didn't care about him when I had an A, why should he care about me? This is all about him learning that he cannot punish me anymore.

Need to carry on with Plan B, and get IM to let him know that the rest of his stuff is packed, waiting outside and he needs to come and get it. I will make sure I am out of the house.

The great thing about Plan B, is that you don't have to know a single thing about what THEY are upto. What you don't know, can't hurt you. Thank goodness.



Hi Guys

The first Plan B letter that I have to my H on the 2nd October, which he read but completely disregarded in summary said:

* How my only regret in life would be the affair and would never forgive myself for the hurt and pain I caused him
* The OM didn't mean anything to me, and that he took advantage of my vulnerabilities and I let him
* That I avoided conflict by communicating my needs to my H and hid in OM affair
* That I would always despise the OM for causing me to lose the love of my life
* That I loved my H more than anyone
* That his disrespect, contact with OW and lack of commitment to rebuild the marriage is causing me stress and unhappiness
* That until he can commit to rebuilding the marriage, end contact with OW and stop acting disrepectfully that I would like him to leave our home
* That I do not want any further contact with him so I can recover alone
* That either we honor our vows and be married out we are appart and that punishment is not part of the equation and only honest effort is part of the equation
* I love him very much and did not want it to come to this, but I need to look after myself

The second letter I gave my H on 12 October, I left it with his belongings and he did not take it with him. It said:

Hi

I have packed the rest of your stuff for you. I have seen your truck round at OW (no contact?!) and I am not prepared for you to come and go in our house any longer whilst you are seeing OW.

I have tried to make things work and you have done nothing. You continue to lie, cheat and disrespect me, I no longer recognise the person you have turned into.

I no longer wish to have any contact with you, I will pack the rest of your stuff up for you to collect the weekend.

Harmony.

OK I know what you are all going to say and I think a follow up letter is a good idea maybe. The 1st letter he tore up, and the 2nd letter he did not take with him.

Thanks all,
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/17/10 12:44 PM
If you two are still living together, you aren't going into Plan B.

can YOU move?

Your WH really doesn't want Plan B and he has broken you. You need to gather all of your strength and do this the right way.
So the only communication he wants is make-up sex and talking to you about his work, life, and other problems?

He has a photographic memory or doesn't need to keep your letters and thats because...could it be what you think and feel doesn't matter?

Come-on Harmony, that last letter did not leave him any instructions to repair your marrige relationship but he thinks so little of it anyway he just left it like someone might leave a little kids picture they drew. Sorry, I put those up and make a big deal out of them for the kids as most of us do.

Ok make a list of what YOU want to happen before you get back together with him or see him again. You don't have kids, and he is still one himself. Give him the respect of what he won't give you, detailed communication, and don't accept anything less but full compliance or never see him again. It really is that simple, not easy but simple. Stick to a plan to get your life together and the heck with those who use you.

Run the list by us, then when your ready you can get 10 copies and posterize a few. Cover then with large plastic lexan and post them outside your house like with kids at playgrounds. If he ever wanders back it can remind him of the rules he needs to follow to be with you, then he can put his fingers in his ears and yell "NAH NAH NAH I can't hear you" as he runs off and finds someone he doesn't have to work so hard to get attention from.

Your H is treating you like a child and blaming you for it. You can put a stop to it. We are behind you, stand up to this treatment.
Waiting till tuesday to find out legally how to get him out of the house? change the locks or whatever? Start looking for some personal protection also before he does something that will require the police to step in.

It would be Ideal if you could change the locks, give him a boot and he would honor that. I wouldn't count on it though and enough ppl willing to stand with you in your personal life might save you both from dealing with the courts and police.

Time to face the possibility that he might not change for quite a few years if ever and/or you will be dealing with an unruly child for quite a while. Maybe someday he will see that you were the one that got away and you gave him a chance and maybe he won't.

The thing you must do for yourself is ask and expect love,(which he doesn't seem to know what that is), and respect, (your thoughts and feelings matter don't they?)

Its your life, and you get the credit and blame for how it turns out, reguardless of how you got where you are. Play the hand thats dealt you now and take the guidance here and from people you know and show they love you. Its the only way.

Lets get him out of your house and away from your presence until he learns how to love you. If he escalates to the point of legal action then call in the authoritys, it on him if he can't show you the simple respect of separation, your not his slave.
Hello Constant

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Time to face the possibility that he might not change for quite a few years if ever and/or you will be dealing with an unruly child for quite a while. Maybe someday he will see that you were the one that got away and you gave him a chance and maybe he won't.

Yes I know I need to face this, not sure how, one day at a time. Praying for a miracle. I want him and love him, and I only wants what is best for him. Maybe that is to let him go and be with someone who is happy for him to live his independant lifestyle with everything being all about him, OR him think, learn, grow, and be the best person he can with value inside with me.

I miss him tonight, but in a manageable way. Still strong and focused, I hope this continues. It is now 1 week since I made any contact with him, well its a milestone!!

I am not holding much hope for him. Can anyone give me any hope? I said a little prayer last night, and again this morning.

Maybe he is better off without me.

If my H ever decides to come back to me cap in hand, here is the back together list:

1. Complete honesty about hopes, fears, dreams, and whereabouts
2. A phone call to SH to initiate a MB coaching session
3. Honesty about what happended with OW
4. No contact letters to OW
5. Individual counselling for continuous cruel treatment (not sure about this one?)
6. Stop IB
7. Remorse for behaviour over past 7 months

Thanks all,
Harmony
While you have been remorseful, there is no guarantee that he will be remorseful.

Remember, that with MB, remorse isn't an absolute necessity.

It may be reached, but consider it a bonus, and not a requirement.
Hi there HHH

Yes I see what you mean, I will take that one off the list.

I want him home, I really do, I am missing him tonight. Just a low moment, withdrawal maybe.
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
While you have been remorseful, there is no guarantee that he will be remorseful.

Remember, that with MB, remorse isn't an absolute necessity.

It may be reached, but consider it a bonus, and not a requirement.

yeah I agree with this, we can only hope in time and with work he will feel remorse for his actions. The first issue is getting on board the recovery train.
The individual counselling is a good idea but here we are sort of holding his hand. This is what I mean by this...

He must stop treating you with cruelty as a condition of coming back. How he goes about dealing with it is not important, thats his problem. A problem so ingrained he doesn't even see it or recognize it when he does it.

You must define these things to him, what they are, and then he must see them and be willing to work on them, yes, but how he conquers them is his personal battle. If he needs counseling to stop it then so be it, but they must stop reguardless.

You must say ouch when he does it, then he must stop the behavior, if he wants to figure out why he did it is not as important as stopping it and shouldn't be a condition of being with you, just his behavior.

Your feelings are important Harmony. feelings of insecurity even if unfounded are often dissmissed by others as being silly instaed of looked into and discussed with openess and honesty. Maybe someone is insecure for some buried reason that needs to be investigated and dispelled, and then maybe there is a real reason like extreme IB and callousness toward us coupled by dangerous relationships with members of the opposite sex.

The point is the feelings are there for a reason, to stuff them down and minimize thier importance because they are not yours and you have more important things to do is selfish in a relationship. There might not allways be time to talk about them when you first notice them, but you can allways schedule a time later and show you care.

We are talking about feelings when you are married to someone and emotions should reflect what we know to be true. If the truth is that we know our mate cares about what we feel...,pain, fear, insecurity, anger, resentment, bitterness, joy, hope, happiness, ..then we can tackle the issue with thier objectivity confident we are loved.

Emotions are real and the driving force that makes everything happen. We do nothing without that connection.

Of course there is hope harmony, You just be strong and stand for what is really important and valueable and you will have it manifested in your life. If H sees how it is what should be important to him too, and he grabs this chance at growth, he can come with you.

I Pray too that he will see it also. Its his choice.
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/18/10 07:24 AM
I bought a subscription to MB radio archives so I am listening to a number of shows.
What I hear more and more consistently from Dr. Harley is the importance that the WH comes back hat in hand especially after multiple A's but actually even after only one.
In his experience Dr. H has seen that if the WH is not 100% repentant there is an extremely high chance that he will cheat again. I can testify for that as my WH was in no way repentant (he was actually blaming me and defending OW after his first A) and there you go...soon after (not even 3 years after) he was in a second A that gave the final blow to our M.
Dr. H said that for a WW is not necessary to come back to the M repentant (in fact the example given in SAA with Sue shows that she came back to the M after OM left her and she was not repentant at all towards Jon)but he can't say the same for a WH.
This is repeated over and over again to the many BW that call in or email. In many cases Dr. H advices the BW to divorce the WH when the WH is a serial cheater and acts in a cruel, verbally (or physical) abusive way. Basically when the WH continues to attribute the reason why he had an A to the BW.
He tells the BW that she will definately be better off divorcing the WH unless she wants to go thru a life of misery.
Food for thought.
Blessing
Thanks Antena

I felt like I was missing H when I woke up this morning and when I read this it gave me the kick I needed. In all honesty, I am actually sleeping better since he has gone, and it is nice to be able to walk around the house without being treated like a leper. I feel better in some ways than I have for weeks. I think most of the tears are for the M I wanted.

I must admit though, when I read your post it I cried, it really hit a nerve. A big moment of realisation as to how my H has treated me. He has serially cheated on me, justified it the whole time, verbally abused me and allowed me to endure moments of total humiliation.

Not really sure what this means, but Plan B was the best thing I ever could have done.

I guess this has also given me the push to get the locks changed and put the rest of his stuff outside.

I love him and miss the 'old him' but not enough to take him back without 100% remorse. Otherwise I would just be on a road to hell again.


Hi Harmony,

just dropping by for some encouragement. You are doing great. I'm sure he chooses to play the game and not come to get his stuff for days if not weeks. He doesn't have any power left except this to influence you to get and keep your attention on him and his doings. I'm also sure that when he sees that his tricks won't work on you, he will try something else. It's like when a child has lost the access to his favourite toy, he will then do anything it takes to get it back. Fortunately, you can ensure your Plan B by thinking it through of what he might be capable of and anticipating it. Changing locks, blocking his phone, e-mails is quite necessary.

I would take his stuff outside and put them in the place where they are out of your sight, so you won't wonder every time you see them why he doesn't pick up his stuff and when he's going to, or what you should do when they are getting wet or dirty. This is extra stress for you and completely unnecessary, because he is completely on his own now, the way he chose a long time ago, as a matter of fact.

Just my thoughts.
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/18/10 11:40 AM
Quote
it is nice to be able to walk around the house without being treated like a leper
Yes, it is! I remember my WH would not even want me next to him. He would move if I sat close or touched him. In bed he would sleep at the far end, and if his legs touched mine by mistake he would pull away as if I were a snake.
FOr the longest time I would ask myself:" What did I do for this man to be so repulsed by me?"
THen on MB I found out that most WS do what he did...however he seemed to be a little more cruel and entitled than most.
Then of course the A did explain a lot of his behavior...however he must have had something going on on a personal level to be so cruel to me.
I guess Dr. H had a point when he said that I would do just fine without my WH in my life. He added that however he believes WH will not do very well down the line has he has compromized his moral believes and is on a downward spiral.
Who knows what will happen to him...he seems to be doing well, if he went thru some major upheaval I would hear it from my son.
I know it is hard right now for you and as time goes by it gets a little better. But really, would you hang on to a drowning person?
This is what we are doing. I do miss who my WH was (and he was that a long long time ago) but it has been too long now since he turned into someone I do not recognize.
I just know that seeing him and interacting with him would hurt me beyond belief. He is truly toxic to my life. The way he treated me for the past 2 years and many years prior is just not acceptable. I have to work on regaining self respect for me as I am so beaten up emotionally.....
blessing
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
, we can only hope in time and with work he will feel remorse for his actions. The first issue is getting on board the recovery train.

Ya, know, I felt funny when I wrote this and compared it to myself and what I would feel was appropiate. To me total repentance and remorse would be neesesary for me to want to change. For my late wife...it was allways a slow process.


In Harmonys case, and how extreme he seems to have become, I felt it even more nessesary that he feel actual remorse, but because we want him to act differently and trust MB like a child maybe that is the way to make him see his mistakes.

My guts says kick his [censored], but if MB says that too. good.
It comes in waves but the more I am away from him the more I am appalled at the way he has treated me. How could someone do this to someone else?

I know there are different stages of grief but for the first time ever, I feel acceptance is starting to happen. I believe that he is doing exactly what I did for a time and that is running away from his actions, everyone including my family and friends have seen another side to him with his mask off. He will never come back, he may try to play more games with me, but he will never come back. The reason being tha. His image is very impotant ro him as mr all round nice guy, and it is easier for him to walk away than deal with the truth.

I can't believe I have allowed myself to get this far down the road with him. I have lost total confidence in myself in regards to men and their intentions.

I feel really really angry with myself.
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/18/10 12:44 PM
Quote
everyone including my family and friends have seen another side to him with his mask off.
Oh yes, they reveal themselves for what they are and you know they bad when across the board everybody say they are. It broke my mom's heart to see the real face of my WH. SHe said he was like a son to her but now she knows not who he has become.

Quote
He will never come back, he may try to play more games with me, but he will never come back. The reason being tha. His image is very impotant ro him

You do not know that for sure. But the point is not if he cames back...it is HOW he comes back. You do not want him back the way he is now.
They are all about image, yes. But they lost face by now so the only way to keep face (in their messed up mind) is to continue doing what they are doing and show the world that they mean it.
And that is where their downfall really is. It is in continuing to spiral down because they do not have the guts to say they made a mistake...it also takes too much time to become good.
blessing
Yes my mother was the same, she has 3 son in laws, and got on well with all of them, but her secret favourite was my H. She won't even discuss it with me now, as she is so upset that I have stayed living with him whilst he has treated me this way. Yes she knows that I was wrong to have an A, but I should not be punished this way. I think she is appalled.

My H said just before I asked him to leave, how could I ever face your M again? The thing is my family would never treat my H disrespectfully if I bought him into a family situation, they would always be courteous and polite, as they believe it is between the couple. Whereas I have been to his family's house and his mother has just blatantly ignored me.

I maybe psycho analysing too much, but I believe that my H secretly despises all women, mainly because of his mother. He often use to say about my female friends, I don't like her or she annoys me ect....I do think he has an issue with women. He in some ways was the 2nd husband to his mother, she would talk to him about relationship problems with her H and want him at her constant beck and call. I never took it personally that she didn't like me, she didn;t like anyone who took her sons attention away from her. Even when my H was at school, she really did not like his BF. Even when we got M, his BF said you have your work cut out with that family.

the thing is, you can't choose your parents but you can separate off from the emotionally and decide for yourself whats right and wrong. Unfortunately my H has not yet done that.

At some point he won't be able to keep running away from himself. He had one moment of this when he collapsed on his bed in tears saying that he didnt like himself and that he used people and upset people all the time.

Unfortunately now, I don't know whether to believe any of the garble that comes out of his mouth.

I don't know for definite if he will not come back remorseful, but as you say Antena, that would having to look in the mirror and face himself and his faults, and that (I know I had to do it) is oneof the hardest things of all.

Harmony



Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/18/10 01:36 PM
my mom says the same thing...she is agast that I let my WH treat me the way he did for such a long time.
I think this bring up a good point for us Harmony and that is the question "why do we allow men to treat us this way?"
Why do we put up with so much abuse and have so little self love and preservation instict?
I read Eckhart Tolle the spiritual teacher who was also on Oprah a while ago. He said that for every abuser there must be a person willing to be abused.
Our WHs are spiritually dead and unsconscious but we must on a similar path if we let them abuse us....
NOw is different because we had the courage to break free, so we are moving on and evolving spiritually, but for the longest time, I too, was spiritually dead...
blessing
Harmony,
I'm glad I have found you I was concerned about you but I can see you are doing the best you can with what you are dealing with.....
You are feeling all the normal emotions that go with this kind of decision....
You will weigh things out from every angle trying to make sense of everything, this is very normal and all part of the healthy recovery process.....
I'm glad you are sleeping and feeling free in your own home.
Stick with the plan you have in place and try to keep yourself busy....
Your husband has to do a lot of self reflection in order to change this will not happen overnite, don't expect anything from him.....let him think and work things out for himself.....he is a grown man that understands life, he might act like a child but my guess is he knows exactly what his choices are here......
You want a husband that is different than the one you wanted otherwise it will never work......I think forcing him to finally look inside himself is the only way.......I think we all can get to a better place and understand what and how we get to the decisions we get to, he is no different.....
Stay dark and sit back and wait and if the wait is to long, move on knowing that you have your self respect and that you have come out of this a better person and a person who now knows how to treat someone else and how you want to be treated, you have learned this and it's a good thing.....
I think you are a strong woman with a great deal of love and compassion .........be poud of yourself..........
Originally Posted by atena
my mom says the same thing...she is agast that I let my WH treat me the way he did for such a long time.
I think this bring up a good point for us Harmony and that is the question "why do we allow men to treat us this way?"
Why do we put up with so much abuse and have so little self love and preservation instict?
I read Eckhart Tolle the spiritual teacher who was also on Oprah a while ago. He said that for every abuser there must be a person willing to be abused.
Our WHs are spiritually dead and unsconscious but we must on a similar path if we let them abuse us....
NOw is different because we had the courage to break free, so we are moving on and evolving spiritually, but for the longest time, I too, was spiritually dead...
blessing


You are so right Antena. It does feel kind of good to break free but on the other hand, it feels hard to let go of someone you love.

I understand why I put up with his poor treatment for so long.

1. It took me totally by surprise, I never imagined for the life of me he could treat me that way. There were signs though right from the beginning. I remember his BF GF came upto me, and said, Harmony you seem like a really nice girl and I like him, but he can be really nasty when he wants to be, don't get involved with him. Also, when my H told me about his ex GF and that for the end of their rship was on anti depressants and he told me he use to sleep with women and go home to her. That when she threw out all of his stuff out of the house that she lay on the road begging him to come back and he told her she was pathetic and to pick herself off the floor. Nice. So i suppose that is what always unnerved me about him,.

2. Because of my A. I thought I deserved to be treated that way to earn forgiveness and I thought that would be the way to get him back.

You live and learn. The way I see it is because we are good people and would never intentionally go out of our way to hurt others, we just don't imagine those closest to us can behave that way.

Thanks Antena.

Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/18/10 01:53 PM
Quote
At some point he won't be able to keep running away from himself

He would be lucky if he saw the light of that day. Too many do not and stay the way they are, often becoming addicted to booze or other substances.
blessing
Originally Posted by atena
Quote
At some point he won't be able to keep running away from himself

He would be lucky if he saw the light of that day. Too many do not and stay the way they are, often becoming addicted to booze or other substances.
blessing


Yeah my H is a heavy drinker, it anaethetises him from everything that is going on. Especially at the weekends, he drinks through them. When I met him he was a heavy drug and alchohol user, and gave it all up after a couple of months of being together. Although in his defence, he has always been very anti me using drugs, ciggaretes and alchohol. Not that I would use drugs anyway, I have when I was a lot younger.
Geez Harmony, I thought he was anti-drug because he had not done a lot of them, and he saw though the BullChit they are along with knowing they are part of the road to spiritual and physical death. But now I am seeing another side. He is OK with himself doing them when he sees fit, but don't you ever do them.. To him he is always in control, you never are.


You are probably coming into a stage a lot of people who have lived in crazy and/or abusive situations do when the relationship ends. Good. Now that you are recovering yourself you will make better choices for yourself as you know you will be alright.

I liked Jessies post too, a lot of common sense and real support.
No constant, he was a heavy cocaine user when I met him, he was a dealer too. I didn't find this out until a few weeks in but I did not like this part at all, I only went out with him a few times before he gave it all up. I think he was looking for a way out of it all and saw me as it. True to his word though he was quite anti afterwards.

I have re written my conditions for reconciliation:

1. Get on board fully with MB. That includes counseling with SH.

2. He cannot move back in until all of my conditions are met. That is including a NC letter to OW

3. STD testing

4. Complete transparency

5. Repentent attitude in both words and actions

Still feeling ok, feel a lot calmer, and sleeping much better. I was so worried that I would crumble without him, and I am fine. I do get waves of sadness, I just let them come and go. I keep saying to myself see Harmony you can still breathe and go about life.

Came home from work tonight, the evenings are getting dark as the English winter is settling in. I spoke to my mum, dad and sister then did some interior design home work for my new course with a glass of wine. Peaceful - lovely.

I really credit this place for making me so grounded to deal with this. I can live my life but I can't do anything about my m. I do hope H is well and will say a prayer for him tonight.
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/19/10 07:32 AM
Quote
It took me totally by surprise, I never imagined for the life of me he could treat me that way. There were signs though right from the beginning. I remember his BF GF came upto me, and said, Harmony you seem like a really nice girl and I like him, but he can be really nasty when he wants to be, don't get involved with him. Also, when my H told me about his ex GF and that for the end of their rship was on anti depressants and he told me he use to sleep with women and go home to her. That when she threw out all of his stuff out of the house that she lay on the road begging him to come back and he told her she was pathetic and to pick herself off the floor. Nice. So i suppose that is what always unnerved me about him,.

I was warned in more or less the same way by his sister. She told me days before our M that the way my WH broke up with ex girlfriend was awful. She said that if she were not his sister and he would ask her to marry him, she would not because he cannot be trusted. I asked her why and basically she said that he was not faithful to his XGF.
XGF also called me soon after our M (20years ago) to tell me that WH just broke up with every one when he broke up with her and did not keep in touch with any of their common friends. He just cut his losses and moved on and she added he was cruel.
Now I do not know if she was trying to be revengeful. HOwever soon after I met my WH he told me he had slept with other women before totally breaking up with GF and that he considered that normal as their R was already over since he had announced his desire to end it.
He did the exact thing to me 20 years later. Broke off with everybody without a word (my family, common friends...) and started A and felt entitled to it just because he had verbally announced to me his desire to separate.
So to him this was a lifestyle and I can't be sure but I have a strong gut feeling that on and off thru our M he had been cheating on me pretty regularly.
I therefore deduce that a person like my WH is addicted to the "in love" thrill-stage of the A and that he needs that hight to find his life meaningful and have the illusion of hapiness.
He is also convinced that there is a soulmate out there for him. a woman who can make him happy and who is totally compatible with him.
Dr. H said (on a radio show) that serial cheaters are always looking for that soul mate, hence the affairs.
What can you hope from a person like this.....?
It is very painful to me to be without him and yes I do go on with my life but a big chunck of it is missing and I truly do not know how much better I could find out there.
In a year I have been in plan B I have never had any man interested in me (not that I want to go out with anybody) however it would be a good self-esteem boost to have someone pay attention to me even just for a minute.
I have also noticed that most men are very difficult, they have lots and lots of problems and do not seem much better than my WH.
So is WH really that bad or is he just average?
Some guys might not have the same problems he does but have others (gambling, porn, overspending, unemployment, health issues, D several times with kids from previous M, abusive, alcoholic, drug addicts, etc..)
All of this to say...I am in plan B because I do believe that if WH "awakens" out of this mess then he would be the best person for me to be with as he is the father of my son, an intelligent and hansome man and he is my family.
That is why is worth giving it a shot. I am convinced that there is not much better out there. Really not.
blessing
Ouch it hurts today.

I hope its not like a pressure cooker and the longer it goes on the more its going to hurt.

I expect that it is a roller coaster of emotions and I just have to go with it.

I can�t help wondering if he is OK and where he is, but have not tortured myself with any �drive bys�. No contact and still dark!

I spoke to my solicitor, who said that if I were to change the locks, then there is nothing to stop my H calling the police to let him in the property and having them changed back. However, there are very few spouses who do that. Also, that if it were her, she would not be happy with her spouse coming and going and would change them.

I am going to get the locks changed, I am scared about doing this and worried about his reaction. However, I am not comfortable that he may have a few drinks and get vengeful and it is peace of mind at night. I am nervous about it though. Anyone please shout if you think I am making a mistake.

I also thought about his stuff that he left, and I am simply going to put it into storage. He needs to know that I will stand by my word and if he refuses to take it then I will remove it.

Again, shout if you think I am making a mistake.

Antena

How strange, there are a lot of similiarities. My H also too has been rude of late to all my GFs, one of them said to me that your H was really rude to me the other day and when I was driving upto the house said �What are you doing here?�. I guess he doesn�t need to charm then anymore, he doesn�t need me, so why bother charming them?

A year is a long time to be in Plan B. How long do you intend to be in it for? For me, I would love to have a family, so it won�t be a long Plan B. Haven�t given it much thought yet, just want to get through these first few weeks.

You probably haven�t had a man interested in you because you have not been giving out the right vibes? I know what you mean about the �quality� of the men out there. However, I do believe there are a lot of good men out there I really do. Ofcourse there is, what about all the men who post and support others on this message board? I think maybe you want to believe that, as you don�t want to let your H go yet? Sorry, if I am wrong. I think it would be nice for you to have a self esteem boost Antena. I know you are not at the stage yet but where do you meet men currently? Just interested that�s all.

My H is more angry at me for my A and seeking revenge, I know that he thought I was his soul mate, I think he will slowly find out that its not as easy to walk away, like I did last year. I have known for a long time deep down that the only way for us to work would be Plan B, and him come back repentant, that way I won�t live a lifetime of misery being �punished� so Dr Harley is bang on. I just hope he comes to his senses, but I fear the situation is now so far out of control.

I have a session with SH today, to discuss a good Plan B.
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/19/10 11:48 AM
I am giving plan B another year, but really I have no intention of asking for a D as I would have to do so in 2 countries and it is expensive and time consuming.
I guess it would be a plan B for life as I do not intend to interact with WH ever.
Your WH seems belligerant so he might be one of those who turn around quickly. In my case my WH plans B me as much as I plan B him so I think he really pulled the plug on the M for good.
Dr. H recommends plan B for 2 years, he says after that chances of R the M are close to zero.
By all means change the locks. He might be upset about it but so what...as long as he can't get in your house you will feel safer.
I am really not looking for men but the ones I have contact with are the ones at work. Many of them are much younger and many are M so they are off limits. And yes, I do nothing to encourage them so I guess they just think I am off limits too, however all of the ones who are not M do know I am no longer with my WH. But again, I give them no encouragement so ...
Maybe there are good men out there. MB posters are good guys, but they are off limits and married.... blush
As far as plan B and pain of separation. As long as you stay dark you will be fine.
I am not dark because I see WH at work and it hurts a lot when I do. I also live in the same small appartment building as OW so I also see her car parked or not parked and that tells me when she is with him or not. That also hurts and keeps me stuck in the pain so I am not a good example but I am a good example of what should not be done.
In 1 or 2 years I am planning to move back to the States and I am, right now, looking into jobs over there, so I know that once I move away from here I will be a lot better.
What I have been doing is that I have been planning things for me. I have started a sport activity I always wanted to learn. I also excersise daily for an hour. I hike on weekends and I have 2 trips planned, one in London and the other in Prague.
I see friends on a regular basis,I practice meditation and read. I listen to MB radio almost daily and post on the forum
I do not call, message or interact with WH and do not ask about him any longer (I used to up to a month ago)nor I investigate his plans by using facebook, internet or common friends.
If anybody starts up a conversation where WH is involved I stop them right away and say I am not interested in talking or knowing about him.
I am getting better, but unfortunately I still think about him most hours of the day and I do miss him a lot. (again due to my poor plan B)
blessing


It hurts today it really hurts, this is the worst since he left.

Need to get head together.

Harmomy
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/19/10 01:13 PM
Whatever you feel, do not contact him and do not be tempted to find out about him.
Read inspirational books like Eckart Tolle's "A New Earth", "The Power of NOw", "Stillness speaks".
Read funny books like "Funny in Farsi" or anything uplifting.
Watch a funny movie. Call a friend or vent on this forum.
If your thought go to WH do not indulge them. Let them go.
blessing
Regaurding your H state of mind, his past coke use has me wondering how emotionally mature he is at this present time, but I will spain why I say that.

I knew a herion addict and he was not a theif, someone who would spin a tale to get drugs, or take from anyone else. Different from some of the ppl on the street or some others.

I commended him one day and we both agreed you don't have to be an AZZholio to be a drug addict, but it helps. It points to the basic core reasons why ppl use drugs, emotional problems.
I talked to a phycolagist a long time ago about myself because I had messed around with them from 14-17 and asked him if they do permanent damage. He said they could but most of the time the damage is that they stunt emotional growth and maturity.

I know a little about how coke works in the mind and how it lies to us, but the person who does it is still doing it because thier is something they are not dealing with inside themselves and at any level of use its a spiritual/emotional sickness that in its core is a lie. They have to make the decision that they must stop, and then find out why they went there to begin with, and deal with it emotionally to truly beat the addiction and hate it.

Maybe your H allready did this, maybe he is sitting on the fence as he justifys it and denies he had problems deeper than whatever got him started. Maybe he just quit to stay out of jail. I don't know and I don't care as it applies to what is going on here but its evident there is something deeply wrong with his values towards himself, and therefore you and everybody else.

It reveals the problems he has, but does not deny a solution by any means, and that is his problem, not yours.

There are functioning addicts all through the world and they are not allways bad towards others. I will go out on a limb and say maybe they even function while they are married without outwardly abusing there mates. But the emotional issues that surround the drug abuse,(including alcohol, its a drug to me), absolutly effect the people close to you even on a small scale, especially if they are in denial that they need help on many levels and the drug use is just the start.

So much for that anyway...

I also am afraid for you if he has a few. You didn't answer me about who you could have around for protection and a witness if he got squirrly. I think you should put the stuff in storage and send the key same day mail to his parents. Maybe they will give him a place to vent and keep him from getting violent. Even you BIL might help in that way as he can be a shoulder he can cry on but keep him out of trouble.


I want to address what you said about men on this board. My personal opinion is that I would never look for a relationship with anybody here beyond what I have, and that is good freinds. Much of the pain I have expressed is something I would rather have in the past in any new relationship, and the advice and guidance found here is my place of safty emotionally. To mix and confuse the total objective advice and connection I have here would be sabotaging myself and others. I learned a long time ago that real frindship is objective, and getting to emotionally vested can end up hurting someone as you are willing to justify crap that isn't real to draw close.

Friendship is more valuable to me than lovers and can lose objectivity in getting to close. Plus many of us come here to save ourselves from pain. If we don't learn to deal with the pain but instead jump to someone else its just rebound anyway.

I do hope that I run into someone who reflects the standards and character of this board someday outside of the board itself but i would never compromise what I have in this place for me or anyone else. I am just not that desparate.


Another thing is that what is said on forums by people is just thoughts and words but does not reflect what there actions are in real life. Maybe they want to quit smoking for example before they meet with someone else or lose weight and they know they are not even ready in real life for a relationship. The words and aspirations of people with the support given on this board are important and indepensible for thier healing and growth. But don't get fooled into beleiving what everyone says is where they are at when it pertains to reality and actions yet.


Don't worry, I know you want children and you feel like the clock is ticking, but keep working on being happy with yourself and your goals outside of a relationship and I am sure it will happen naturally. Im sure you have learned so much here and will excercise the quailitys you respect in the next relationship.


Don't wanna sacrifice the permentant need on the altar of the imediate one. If you KWIM.


Glad things are getting better Harmony
Harmony,
Stick with the plan, keep your eye on the big picture and that is saving your marriage, this is the only way to force your husband to see the real him, if you let him back now he will believe he never has to change in order to keep you in his life.
It won't happen overnight......he needs to hurt as well because of his decisions......you have told him already that you love him and that you would be willing to work on the marriage so both of you are happy......that is all you can do at this point the rest is up to him......
Remember a lot of stories here that have come back to a good marriage from worse places than your marriage by following the plan at MB.
It's tough I know and I bet you just wish you could have him home but not yet, not without change, keep yourself busy with work and friends and show him you will not put up with any more abuse from him........
Good luck with your session with Dr Harley........be strong.........
Please get his stuff out of that house, the longer you wait the longer it will keep reminding you of him. GET IT OUT! laugh

Keep going girl we know you can do this!
I know, you feel like you are on a tightrope ( of emotions)and we are all yelling "Don't look down! Don't look down!" the first thing you want to do is what?? ... look down.

I am rooting for you. Maybe not "Don't look down", but "Don't look back!"
Thanks Guys for your support. I still feel like cr*p, I suppose I am having a poor day. I blame myself, I need to get it together.

I had my session with Steve Harley. I am not really sure what to make of it. I gave him an update since it was a month ago since I last spoke to him.

He agreed that moving to Plan B was the right thing to do. That my H was a fence sitter and could not really decide whether he was married or single. That he knew what he was doing was wrong.

If I am honest I didn't really get a lot from the session, Steve just wanted me to stick to the plan and make sure I didn't do any Love Busters.

He didn't think I should change the locks or get rid of H stuff out the house as long as we wasn't coming and going frequently. I said he has been back once into the house since he officially left.

He also said that if he comes back to the house to be respectful let him get his stuff, be polite but distant and if he wants to talk about "stuff" then let him know that I wasn't willing to discuss anything unless it was about having no contact with OW or commitment to MB.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
I want to address what you said about men on this board. My personal opinion is that I would never look for a relationship with anybody here beyond what I have, and that is good freinds. Much of the pain I have expressed is something I would rather have in the past in any new relationship, and the advice and guidance found here is my place of safty emotionally. To mix and confuse the total objective advice and connection I have here would be sabotaging myself and others. I learned a long time ago that real frindship is objective, and getting to emotionally vested can end up hurting someone as you are willing to justify crap that isn't real to draw close.


I hope that my comment to Antena was not taken out of context. I was meaning to say that there are lots of good single men out there who had good values, I thought it was a shame that Antena did not realise there may be, and that thought that there were not men who may be available who could treat her well. So I wanted to stress that if our Plan A & B did not work and we accepted that, then there are good decent men out there in the world. I really want to make that clear.

Thanks all.

Harmony
I feel in limbo in this Plan B. Limbo whilst my H does what, plumb some other woman whilst I sit at home hoping he will come to his senses and turn up on the doorstep? That he is fence sitting for 8 months because I had an A, and in the meantime to cure his broekn heart thought he would 'entertain' 5 other women? Because thats we all do when we are heartbroken isn't it? We take other members of the opposite sex away for romantic weekends.

I honestly feel like he has messed up my life and now I supposed to sit here in Plan B whilst he lives up the single life, and hope that one day he comes to his senses, meanwhile my fertility clock wizzes of the ricter scale.

Please.

I feel a bit lost. I don't know what to do with myself.

Sorry just ranting.
Ok Harmony,

The gloves are coming off. You told me he did not isolate you, but now you say he is rude to your friends. You knew from the beginning he was a drug user and a drug dealer. You knew from the beginning that he did not treat the other women in his life well.

You should be hurting, you deserve to be hurting... twoxfour

You are sitting there pining for a man that is dispicable. You are sitting there wondering if he will change.
You are sitting there hoping he will come back.

What the heck is wrong with you, do you like being abused????

What you should be doing is filing for divorce.

What you should be doing is praying in thanks that your H has finally been revealed to you in all of his "glory".

You should be praying in thanks that he is gone and that you are finally going to learn how to live, and take care of yourself.

You should be talking to the solicitor about protecting yourself from this man. He had no trouble finding other dumb women to go out and screw and he has no conscience about it. He just blames you.

Someone speculated that he hates women. Well with the type of mother he apparently has little wonder.

Girl you messed up with your affair and that was YOUR choice, but please please look at your life before and after the affair and tell me that you would wish it on a friend, acquaintance or heck, even an enemy.

Pack his stuff, store his stuff, mail him the key, change the locks on your house, file for divorce and learn why you would be attracted to a drug using abuser and then justify remaining with him. I don't want to hear, "yeah JL but he quit the drugs" and then he did what? Became addicted to other activities, controling you, playing golf, anything but being a good human being or a loving husband.

You affair is not justified, but you leaving this marriage is definitely justified. EVEN IF YOU COULD ARGUE THAT HIS BEHAVIOR IS SIMPLY A RESPONSE TO YOUR AFFAIR, you would be a fool to remain with him. His response is NOT that of a husband that loves you. ONe could argue one revenge affair, but 4 plus the punishment and verbal abuse? I don't think this is the sort of man I would want to be around and I am certainly large enough, well trained enough, and mean enough to take care of myself.

He needs serious counseling and serious help, that should happen before you would even consider having him in his life, and that is after every other aspect of your plan B letter was met.

You seem to be a nice woman, you certainly messed up, and you hopefully have learned a lot on this site. These things make you are very desirable catch for man that values a woman capable of love and knowing how to make a good marriage. You think about this very carefully.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Let me add this quote:
Quote
Women marry men expecting to change them, men marry women expecting them to never change.
You really need to think about this quote. He hasn't changed but you are.
Well said JL, and questions Harmony should asking herself about who and what she is attracted to and why. The quote is on point also for a lot of relationships, not just Harmonys, but its a pattern that happens over and over in life. Obviously or it wouldn't be such a famous quote.

Why did you like him Harmony? What was the attraction? I really kind of know the answers to those questions as so do many people who have made the same mistakes. You are really lucky you didn't have kids with him and you at least sense something is wrong with how he treats you. Many women fall for the bad boys or are preconditioned for abuse. They marry and have kids and if they ever see it should be different it may be many years down the road after tragic circumstances.

But I think you know that. I think you see the light on that, but the question remains for you, what was attractive about him to the point you decided to marry him when he had such poor character? What happened to you and what were you thinking that made him exciting or if that wasn't the draw,....why did you settle for someone so unstable?

These are things you will need to address so you don't make another mistake that will hurt you. Remember how mad you got at your H just before you had your A? Then you went out and hurt yourself. Well those feelings and actions had some bad consequences. How come you didn't come here first and follow our advice about H instaed of the A? I know you are sorry now but have you really thought about why you had the A? Bitterness and hopelessness.

I also would like to know what you could possibly be in withdrawl from that makes any sense? I am not saying your not in withdrawl and don't feel pain, but do you realize most of what you believe about your H as in the reasons you love him are not true? You have made it up in wishful thinking and are in withdrawl from your own shattered dreams and expectations. He has not come through at all.


You are coming around to seeing him for his true colors, you have said that. You are getting very resentful towards him, good, for now. You should be seeing and I think you are that you allowed him to walk all over you in the name of loving him even though his actions hurt you.

Thats what I think you have to address in yourself after you go thru this toxic withdrawl. I say toxic because you have been with him long enough that you are addicted to the poison he is to you. Ever hear of the Helsinki syndrome? It works on a lot of levels.

Love and romance the way you might have felt about it in the past was not what you thought it would be with H. I doubt he ever really did anything for you that he didn't make sure he got back ten-fold while at the same time manipulated you into thinking he did some big favor. Your worth more than that Harmony. What happened that you don't know that?

Until you do know it follow the lead from the people who insist you treat yourself better and do know it. Stop pining for him ok? Trust JL and all the others here that you are better off without him. I think you need to talk to a therapist about what kind of men you pick and why. You would have better luck picking up a poorly behaved dog and loving it. At least if it bit you you could justify its just a dog. H doesn't have any excuse and I think you have been giving him one.

Do you have a poor little bad boy complex?

What would your Dad think about that?

Talk to you tommoroww, hang loose and don't react to your emotions of fear and anxiety. You will be out of the woods shortly and you can do it.

Your a good woman, start treating yourself like one and insisting everyone else does too.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I hope that my comment to Antena was not taken out of context. I was meaning to say that there are lots of good single men out there who had good values, I thought it was a shame that Antena did not realise there may be, and that thought that there were not men who may be available who could treat her well. So I wanted to stress that if our Plan A & B did not work and we accepted that, then there are good decent men out there in the world. I really want to make that clear.

Thats what I thought you meant, and thats really sweet you did that for atena. good support Harmony.

I was just worried about how quickly you took back H just to be rejected the next day. Wanted to make sure you realize you don't need a relationship with another man to be loved. WE care about you deeply enough to hit you with a twoxfour. I need those more than nice words most of the time anyways. Kinda like that scripture.."The wounds from a freind are faithful, but the kisses from an enemy are deceitful"

Sorry if I used your thread to expound on my view of the relationships I treasure on this site and my philosphy behind it. I didn't mean to imply anything about your intentions. I know you are doing well and are in a tough place. Hang in there
Hi Guys

I needed that to bring me to my senses!

Originally Posted by Just Learning
Pack his stuff, store his stuff, mail him the key, change the locks on your house, file for divorce and learn why you would be attracted to a drug using abuser and then justify remaining with him. I don't want to hear, "yeah JL but he quit the drugs" and then he did what? Became addicted to other activities, controling you, playing golf, anything but being a good human being or a loving husband.


Thanks JL, I hear what you are saying, this has been my train of thought for the last few days and then sunddenly I had a rubbish day and feared I may be on a downward spiral.

Life does feel so much more peaceful and I am freeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I have got someone coming round to change the locks, and I will get rid of the rest of his stuff this week and post the key. Otherwise he will only come round with another dramatic appearance telling me stuff I don't need to know.

You know what I always knew in my instincts that something was not right about him and I was right. Some of the things in the beginning that made me doubt included:

* The 'warnings' I had been given by other women
* The fact that he was a heavy drug user and drinker
* That he had been charged with GBH Grevious Bodily Harm, when he was about 24
* The way he had treated his ex GF
* That when we were first together his ex GF friends would not speak to him and one even replied when he said Hi, I want nothing to do with you you treated me friend terribly.
* His odd relationship with his mother
* That he treated me like he owned me
* The whole saga with his weird brothers ex wife, and how they spoke/treated her.
* When I first moved into his place and I saw his first temper tantrum about the fact that I had 'taken over', that freaked me out.
* That some 'connection' wasn't quite there...

I could go on....

OK I am free, Seeking was right, now is time for me to go excited about life and SHINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No more pining, no more waiting for him to appear reformed out of the sea.

I suppose the hardest thing Ihave to deal with is what Constant said, why did I pick him and go along with it.....

I could just say I was a lot younger, and I could just live and learn, I am not sure whether it takes hours of therapy. I think maybe that I just need to live by my boundaries and see what happens...

Sun shining in England, autumn time here and it really is beautiful.

Harmony
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/20/10 08:29 AM
I did not interpret Harmony's words as an encouragement to date men from MB forum at all. I just was saying that they are off limits to point out that often that is the case. Nice guys are already M or trying to work on their M, why? Because they are nice.
I think you and I need to realize we have been M to men who showed their colors to us even before our M to them and now more than ever.
We are in love with a fantasy about our WH not the reality of whom they really are.
You ask yourself how could your WH see and frolic with OWs whithout a worry. Well, they just can because even if they know they are doing something wrong, wrong has different degreees of intensity. WHat looks really really wrong to us looks kind of wrong to them but not bad enough to worry themselves sick with it....
I am not sure why Steve did not tell you to just go ahead and D the bloke. It sounds like the session with him was not very useful, I wonder why he did not see the true nature of your WH....
We will get thru this...we were abused and let them abuse us...now we have to work on us and get out of the horrible victim habit of hooking up with abusive men.
blessing
Oh good I am glad you did not interpret them that way!

I still Antena believe that there are healthy single guys out there of all ages with good morals. There could be plenty of reason they are divorced or single...its just hooking up with them in the right places and right time for us.

I know you are not at that stage yet but you are giving me some really good advice and I hate to think that you think a life with your H is the only option. I really hope that at some point you can ditch this guy too and move on properly with your life, we only get one after all and everyone deserves happiness and to be in love.

I think your right about SH though, I left feeling disappointed after the session, he just kept putting my H behaviour down to fence sitting, I did keep saying I am not sure if I can forgive him now though Steve, and he just kept saying sure right...

Sometimes, I always manage to convince myself oh is he really abusive? The boundary work really helped here, because I just look at the FACTS only. No emotion.

He calls me names
He hits me
He throws things at me
He could never say he loved me
He serially cheats on me
He left a woman in the car outside when he knew I was in
He reals me in then pushes me away when he wants to be single
He never wanted to spend time with me
He had different faces for different people

I actually have a vision of what the future might look like, it might be good!
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/20/10 09:11 AM
My WH, during his 2 As:
Puts me down
wants female friends
Does not want me near him and tells me so
Accuses me of all the problems in the M
Says he never really loved me
Says my body is aging
Keeps a facade with others pretending things between us are ok
Has different behaviour according to whom he talks to

All of the above are really really bad, but I think they are mostly the result of the A

When he was not in the A he was

Supportive
A good listener
A good father
told me he loved me
encouraged me to better myself
created common goals with me
spent recreational time with me

However, he also claimed he was never happy with me.

Bottom line: I could never figure my WH out. And most of his bad behavior began when we moved to Italy. Period. Before then there was a tendency and i am not saying he might not have had As, but this tendency became cruel and full blown after we moved here.


Quote
He calls me names
He hits me
He throws things at me
He could never say he loved me
He serially cheats on me
He left a woman in the car outside when he knew I was in
He reals me in then pushes me away when he wants to be single
He never wanted to spend time with me
He had different faces for different people

All of the above emerged after your A? Or was he like this always thru your M?
If so he is really really really bad and you should be throwing a party to celebrate he is out of your life!
blessing
Hi Antena

You have a good point here and this is good for me to write down:

Before A

* Nothing I did was ever good enough (rship with his mother, parties I organised, work on house, helping him with business)
* He was never wrong, probably apologised 2 times in 8 years
* He criticised me
* He shouted at me a lot, and had angry outbursts, such driving the car fast speeds to frighten me, breaking stuff in house
* He never gave me compliments
* Different behaviour depending on who he was with\
* Would pretend to be really nice to me in front of others, then be cold when we were on our own
* Verbally abused me and called me names

However he could also

* Be very charming
* Take me nice places, buy me nice things
* Had a great sense of humour and made me laugh
* Provided me with a beautiful home
* Spent time together doing interesting things

After A

* Very cold
* Serial cheating
* Temper and angry outburst became worse
* Bad mouthed me to others
* Paraded women around in front of me
* Hit me
* Broke things in the house and personal possessions
* Rude to my friends


Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/20/10 10:04 AM
Yes, your WH needs a HUGE wake up call because he is really bad to the core.
I am not a Christian, but I admire Jesus. I think he would compare your WH to the prodigal son. The fact that your WH is really bad does not mean he is not redimable. He can turn around of course. It is,however, a matter of time and i believe you have given him enough of it.
However, what you feel for him you cannot deny, but it is useful to go over the list you just wrote as often as possible and see the reality of who he is.
Awareness is important. We tend to put people on pedestals and then we get all upset if they do not live up to our expectations. In our cases we had pretty good hints about our WH early on into our M and even before then.
We decided to look it over and get involved with them. We are not just innocent bystanders.
blessing
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
These are things you will need to address so you don't make another mistake that will hurt you. Remember how mad you got at your H just before you had your A? Then you went out and hurt yourself. Well those feelings and actions had some bad consequences. How come you didn't come here first and follow our advice about H instaed of the A? I know you are sorry now but have you really thought about why you had the A? Bitterness and hopelessness.


Hello Constant

Yes I was really mad just before the A. I just felt as though he bought nothing into the relationship, that I was the one putting in all the effort. I never expected a great deal back, but I did expect love and affection and a H that wanted to spend time with me and experience things together.

All I remember thinking, is we created and built this beautiful house and I had no one to share it with. We worked so hard on it but never got to actually enjoy it. I was desperate for a baby and all he seemed concerned with was his next work deal, or look for a new house to build. My dreams seemed low down the priority list. Never just be still enjoy each others company and our lives together.

I know I could have tried to communicate this with him better, but I honestly did in some kind of way. He called it nagging. I could have sat down and had a serious chat with him, maybe that would have worked. Who knows.

I am better today, and feel 'normal'. As seeking suggested, I need to get out my yellow pad and start enjoying life!!

Thanks all, you have been such a support system.

Harmony.
Hi Harmony!

Question for you. Were you able to get JL's boot out of your rear end yet? lol...

Seriously though, JL is spot on. This WH of yours is no prize. The things that you have mentioned about him both pre-A and post-A are appalling to say the least. It is time to remove this abusive little child from your life for good.

Stop wasting time and go see the solicitor and file for Divorce. As you have mentioned many times, your bio clock is ticking. Don't waste any more time or energy on this man. He has YEARS worth of work to do on himself before anybody should consider being with him. You need to get through with the Divorce process as quickly as possible and move on with your life. You already know that there are plenty of good men out there just waiting to meet you. You've done alot of work on your 'picker' and you will choose more wisely next time. You won't ignore the red flags as you did with WH.

Bottom line is that it is time to move on. Listen to JL and good luck with that boot!!
Hi Mindshare

Originally Posted by mindshare
Stop wasting time and go see the solicitor and file for Divorce. As you have mentioned many times, your bio clock is ticking. Don't waste any more time or energy on this man. He has YEARS worth of work to do on himself before anybody should consider being with him. You need to get through with the Divorce process as quickly as possible and move on with your life. You already know that there are plenty of good men out there just waiting to meet you. You've done alot of work on your 'picker' and you will choose more wisely next time. You won't ignore the red flags as you did with WH.


lol!! nope the boot is firmly stuck!!! I needed that though to get my head straight again. I can talk myself into anything....

I am sure as the days pass I will be able to see the situation more clearly. I am so relieved he is gone. I can even get my head round filing for the D aswell, see miracles can happen.

One day at a time. I will give myself a few weeks to get my ducks in a row then file.

You are right Mindshare, it would take years for him to get his act together, and I am not brave enough to take that on with no guarantees.

I am scarred by my ability to get so far involved with him, but I do feel a will choose wisely next time. I will make sure I put them under a lie detector test and psycho metric test as part of the dating requirements!!! Joke (but actually quite a good idea?!) - Antena - what do you think???

Yes time to move on, and it actually feels good.

God knows what I would have done without this place.

Maybe it is a bit deep, but I actually fell pregnant whilst on the pill when I was 23. Then spent years trying with my H, I wander sometimes if God has some funny way of intervening....

Once again, thank you all very much.

Harmony.

Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/20/10 02:15 PM
Harmony,
I know your clock is ticking, but really, it would be a terrible idea to have kids with this man!
M needs to be rock solid before it is blessed by kids. YOur M and your WH are not fit enough to have kids and if you did have kids with him it would put such a toll on you that it would make your M life even more h#ll.
You deserve to have kids with a better man. He is no M material. Period.
The dating game here in Italy is terrible. I do not trust Italian men and I would not date one of them. My WH was American but Italian men are worst. The only difference, in the past, is that Italian men did not leave their family if they had an A. NOw they do, so they are just like the Americans

blessing
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hello Constant

Yes I was really mad just before the A.

That was fear Harmony, Anger can be turned inward to become depression also. Its good to get anngy but you need to direct the anger at the threat,then take action. You needed to identify what you should have been afraid of, which by coming here and with good counsel, you are.


I just felt as though he bought nothing into the relationship,

Right, well he brought what he was concerned with, his own needs, however screwed up that they were. Also he wasn't ready to give to anyone else openly or honestly becuase he is wrapped up in himself and what he cares about, him. He traded his addiction and selfish behavior in it for more selfish behavior with a different buzz, thats all. He saw it as OK cuz "At least I am not doing drugs and I am with a good woman". He stopped right there. He also expected you to hold it all together for him too. Parenting works like that when kids are young, but marriage never does that well. Its not supposed to..

that I was the one putting in all the effort.


Parenting, Well you did tell him he should and tryed to guide him, but to him it was nagging. I bet all his explainations about why he was like he was had everything pointed to him and his needs. He needed a counselor and a Daddy who would show him what a man was. Hold his hand when he had to, and stand for something eternal, not temporal like his own messed up version of himself and what was important. We all need this type of authority in our life, we are blessed to be broken enough to realize it, and to seek it. It doesn't come from within ourselves, it comes from outside ourselves, where everybody else lives and learns to love.

An authority of sacrificial love and it takes example and proper guidance to practice it. Trust it and live in its diciplines. All of us must learn it to be whole and healthy, many in life learn enough to get along, some never learn it at all and hide from it. There is a saying that I learned in my early twentys that I saw truth in. "There are 3 kimds of people in the world, People who make things happen, people who watch what happens, and people who wonder what happened" I knew right then no matter what it was up to me to change myself regaurdless of what mistakes I made on the way, I would learn and be molded to what I respected and found truth in. I really had no excuses unless I made them up selfishly for myself.

What kind of person do you want to be? Its a question that must be answered every time you are not satisfied with how things are, then you can take action to change it. The lie most people buy is that they can't. You did put all the effort into the relationship cuz you cared and respected relationship. He cared and respected hisself and his needs so he put effort into that at not only the relationships expense, but now yours.


I never expected a great deal back,

So you didn't get much back... boundaries of self protection. thats what JL was astute enough to tell you about on the outset, and what I felt you need to understand about yourself and work on.

Work on? Well I think that after you know why you will hate what part of you that allows yourself to be decieved and break that hedgeline that keeps you safe. We learn by fear and sometimes it takes pain to respect those boundaries. It is much better to understand what to be afraid of, or respect the boudaries, in the first place. Until you have an understanding of the boudaries and what keeps you safe while giving you freedom that really matters, you will need to understand the triggers within and people and situations without that you must avoid. Later you will want nothing to do with them and can teach your children with total confidance to fear those things so they to will avoid them. Even whaen they get rebeliious in youth and think they know everything.



but I did expect love and affection and a H that wanted to spend time with me and experience things together.

But you were trying to get water from a stone. All good expectations from your H who doesn't possess those values. He knows about and has heard about them but to him they are just words for other people he can dodge around to be accepted and manipulate when he can. You are doing him a favor by refusing to be used anymore. Let him sell it to the next person, or have a crappy relationship compass for the rest of his life if he chooses. Point is..even if you allowed him back and were patient and sacrificial while continuing to parent him, you would still be his mommy. His experience with her should tell you what he expects from her too.

He would have to be so transformed, like Paul in the bible, to even start to change enough so he would continue on his own. Or else he would only change enough to get along. He is still in love with himself. Do you want and have the strength to handle disciplining him or waiting for him to change? I don't think thats what a marrige should be. Can he change? Not without responding to circumstances correctly that you and others put on him by refusing to be around him until he does.

He is fighting to stay how he is and he doesn't want to give anything.


All I remember thinking, is we created and built this beautiful house and I had no one to share it with. We worked so hard on it but never got to actually enjoy it. I was desperate for a baby and all he seemed concerned with was his next work deal, or look for a new house to build. My dreams seemed low down the priority list. Never just be still enjoy each others company and our lives together.


Missing intimacy, Gotta have a common goal with honesty and joint giving to have anything to share with someone anyway. Sharing dreams that are equally important. Guess he didn't want kids ata all? You wanted a life, he wanted a wife, which is like his Mom.


I know I could have tried to communicate this with him better, but I honestly did in some kind of way. He called it nagging. I could have sat down and had a serious chat with him, maybe that would have worked. Who knows.

You are doing it now, lets see if he takes it serous enough to change and how much.

I am better today, and feel 'normal'. As seeking suggested, I need to get out my yellow pad and start enjoying life!!

YaY!! dance2

Thanks all, you have been such a support system.

I do it for me as well as for you, I think we all do.

Harmony.
Originally Posted by atena
...YOur M and your WH are not fit enough to have kids and if you did have kids with him it would put such a toll on you that it would make your M life even more h#ll....

I can attest to that being very true as I have experienced it also.

Your are lucky you didn't have children with him, I would say God intevened but it is obvious there was some mercy there either way. Specially for your children.

BTW, have you ever thought of in the future adopting if you find the right guy? It takes more than producing life from our bodys to create life in others. Being a parent is equally rewarding even if they are not your blood. They are all precious.
Originally Posted by atena
.. The only difference, in the past, is that Italian men did not leave their family if they had an A. NOw they do, so they are just like the Americans

blessing

Boo Hiss.. We are not all like that..Lol JK. I know what you meant.
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/20/10 02:34 PM
Ok I do not mean to bash Italians, I am one of them so I should not bad mouth me. But Italian men have so much against them these days...in the past everything against them was balanced by the love for their family. NOw they lost that too. How sad.
Blessing
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by atena
...YOur M and your WH are not fit enough to have kids and if you did have kids with him it would put such a toll on you that it would make your M life even more h#ll....

I can attest to that being very true as I have experienced it also.

Your are lucky you didn't have children with him, I would say God intevened but it is obvious there was some mercy there either way. Specially for your children.

BTW, have you ever thought of in the future adopting if you find the right guy? It takes more than producing life from our bodys to create life in others. Being a parent is equally rewarding even if they are not your blood. They are all precious.


Put that damn crystal ball away Constant!! I would love to adopt. I have always said that I would like to adopt and have my own biological child. My H liked this idea aswell. Yes it is something I would love to do. I have always felt that there are so many children out there who would love to have a home who are in 'care' why bring more children into the world? I have been cleared of any further fertility issues, I had an ovarion cyst, removed about 6 weeks before the A started. Sorry if thats TMI, but just wanted to clear that up. I have been cleared of any fertility issues.

Yes I would love to do this, once I have the right relationship/marriage. Who knows....
Harmony,

I'm glad you survived my twoxfour . I found your lists of issues with your H very compelling. Let me ask you a question that I really think you should consider. Which traits of your H or his family would you like your son to have? Which treats of your H or his mother would like your daughter to have?

If you remain with this man, your children WILL pickup treats from his side of the family. It is part of the deal.

There are good guys out there, some of them have been dumped by other women, some are late bloomers, and some are just maturing into men from boys (yes us guys mature later than girls do) smile .


You have worked on your boundaries. I would like you to take your current boundaries and apply them to when you first met your H, would he have pasted the test?

I know SH wants to save your marriage and I know your H will get off the fence as soon as he realizes you are really heading out of the door. BUT...is he really the man you want your children to learn from, grow up to be like, and immulate?

You absolutely MUST remember that quote I posted to you, because it is very profound. I will offer you another one to consider because it seems to really apply to women more than men, but also men.
Quote
Potential is what gets the coach fired.
When people start to talk about someones potential it means that they havn't done it yet. Now if you are talking about starting a career fine. But, in sports and other walks of life lots of people have potential but many of them never reach it. You don't marry a man for his "potential" you marry him for what he does NOW, what treats he has NOW, and a clear way to see this is by the people he surrounds himself with and how he treats them. Is he consistent? Does he "kiss A$$" and be nice for those that can help him, and treat others poorly?

So let me finish this by asking you about your "potential". Are you going to starting living up to it? If so you need to lead your life consistently within the boundaries you set. You need to strive for your goals, you need to be the kind of person that men/women enjoy being around AND you need to value yourself to not let someone cross your boundaries and bring you down.

You cannot control your H nor his actions but you could control having an affair. How was your job performance before, during, and after the affair? How is your job performance as you deal with all of this drama? How are you treating other people or are you withdrawing?

You see allowing yourself or anyone else to cross you boundaries affects your potential in all other aspects of your life. Make your potential a reality and you will be a woman sought after for your work, your social skills, your humanity, and your ability to marry and sustain love and a family.

Please think about this very carefully.

God Bless,

JL
OK just read your post JL, will have another read and think about it.

The first part of your post is relatively straight forward I feel, but the second part of your post well aghhhh!!!!!!

I will think about your post very carefully and respond.

You are funny though (I mean this in a good way), no rest for the wicked!!!!!

Rest for the wicked????


NEVER!!!! Nooo

JL
You have asked me lots of questions.

I have one for you.

Why do you do this? What do you get out of it?
Teachers learn from thier students would be my guess about JL.

But I wanted to say great post JL. It was right on.

Glad to see your day is good today Harmony.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
.. I would love to adopt. I have always said that I would like to adopt and have my own biological child. My H liked this idea aswell. Yes it is something I would love to do. I have always felt that there are so many children out there who would love to have a home who are in 'care' why bring more children into the world?


So then the biological clock is not a reason why you need a relationship that produces children soon then. right? You talk a lot about your clock as it relates to time and having a good relationship. I am glad to hear that it really isn't a reason to you and you are a bigger person than that.

I have been cleared of any further fertility issues, I had an ovarion cyst, removed about 6 weeks before the A started. Sorry if thats TMI,


...Lol, I just have to laugh, thats way modest of you, but its wasted on me. I have been shall we say "intimate" with womens health issues for a long time. 7 times in the delivery room, dughter has endomytreosis and burst cysts about every three months. I took her to gyno at 13, my wife had cervical cancer while pregnamt with daughter and to many female friends who need to talk about those very personal issues. It made me laugh when you said it might be TMI. Like my sons jokingly say "This aint my first time at the rodeo"..

But in all seriuosness, I am glad you are ok, that can be quite seriuos and painful too from what i have heard.


but just wanted to clear that up. I have been cleared of any fertility issues.

Yes I would love to do this, once I have the right relationship/marriage. Who knows....

Your gonna be a great Mom some day
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
You have asked me lots of questions.

I have one for you.

Why do you do this? What do you get out of it?

You know I have asked myself this question for 11 years and frankly I don't have a good answer. I have speculated on it alot, even posted about it before, but I don't have a good answer for you.

Let me offer you my best shot. As a child I moved around alot with my family. All over the US and outside of it. I was constantly having to deal with new people, new teachers, new kids, new friends for my family, heck even new accents. wink I, like many kids in my situation, learned about people how to adapt accents, how people reacted, etc. I suppose people have always interested me. I have noticed and commented to my W recently, even today, well into my 7th decade, I still look closely at people. My guess is to see if I know them or recognize where they are from. I still do meet people I knew or knew people I knew 40-50 years ago, so I look.

I would say I have an interest in people. I came to this site because I was looking for some insight into marriage, and I found this well orgainzed approach to marriage. It appealed to me. Further, to my amazement, I read here for 6 months before I finally registered, I could see patterns in people's behavior just as I saw patterns as a kid. I make a living looking for patterns and trying to learn new things, I am a research scientist, although my line of work is theoretical and mathematical.

so I do what comes naturally to me. I look at a person's story, see if I can understand the pattern, and then start to ask questions. I come from a military background both family and personally, and in that background the constant topic is leadership and leadership under pressure. Leadership is about getting people to see the potential of something, setting the goals and then providing them the means to accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

Now hearing this do my questions make sense to you? wink They should. I must say finally, that although I have met a few of the posters on this site over the years, I have not met many. Nevertheless, I derive tremendous satisfaction when a marriage works, and failing that when a life works well. I love to see people succeed, and sometimes that does not mean their marriage survives. More times it does mean that.

I hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

JL

it is quite a contrast research scientist to marriage support! Yes it makes sense though, you obviously have a real interest in what makes people tick and pick up patterns of behaviour.

I have some thoughts on your questions.

What traits of his would I like my children to have?

I sometimes think my desire to have children put a block on the way I saw many things, but there are not many qualities of his that I would like my children to have. I am sure he would be a good father, and you can't predict the future but I remember him saying once about golf, that I wouldn't let him play at weekends because I would want him to be with the family, and I was left thinking, wouldn't you rather be with the family??? I guess my own father played lots of golf and worked lots when we were little and I want a father who wants to take an active part. I can imagine I would end up with most of the responsibility.

You then asked about my boundaries and how they would apply when I first met my H.

My H knew he wanted to marry me within 6 weeks of meeting. He said he knew I was the one. So he was always quite full on. If I knew what ik
know now I would run a mile, for example,

1. I got a text message from his ex GF on my H phone, saying I think I prefer Wendy. When I spoke to him afterwards he was in a real panic and said he met up with his ex for lunch and she stole his phone. I think there was a cross over somewhere. Oh she was nuts too kept stalking him.

2. Alarm bells rang with the rship with his mother e.g she use to come and clean his house for him ( he was 26), he took me to meet her very early on to get her approval, and he sent me a valentines card his words 'my mother said I should'.

3. He was in a lot of debt and did not manage money well.

4. He was a drug dealer and stored them in his house.

5. He was a heavy drinker (daily).

6. He had never really left his home town and 'achieved' anything,

7. He would do weird things like curl up in a ball in the corner crying, as he couldn't cope with work.

OMG!!!!!!!

Then you ask me about my potential?????

This is a toughie. I need to have more thinking time....

Oh just as a side point, have been thinking a lot about OM. Sorry, just being honest. I keep wanting to contact him. Sorry.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Oh just as a side point, have been thinking a lot about OM. Sorry, just being honest. I keep wanting to contact him. Sorry.

Oh what the heck, frying pan...fire..I nned someone or something..right Harmony? twoxfour


Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/21/10 01:11 PM
don't be sorry for us. be sorry for yourself for wanting to complicate your situation even further by letting OM back in your life....

blessing
Let me remind you again that OM is a low life scumbag who had an A with a married woman and thereby demonstrated that he is as boundary free as your H.

You seeing a pattern here???

When you find the memory of him positively repellant you will have turned a corner.

I just started reading on this, but here is the best article I have found so far on why women stay in abusive relationships.

http://forums.our-place-online.net/index.php?showtopic=6864

Lots of "aha" moments. There is one section where I thought continuously of you. If you read it, I'll tell you which one.

I don't know how to do that link is "here" thing so it looks tidy!
Quote
I don't know how to do that link is "here" thing so it looks tidy!

Seeking, you will have to switch to full screen reply, on the top of this reply screen there's a Create a link to a webpage icon (right next to the emoticons icon), click on that icon, then the pop up window appears where you can enter the complete URL for the link you wish to add (you will just copy the address of the webpage there). After OK another pop up window appears where you can write this "here" or whatever you wish. Then OK. I hope it helps smile

end of t/j

twoxfour for Harmony. You know what for.
Harmony, I don't weigh in often but I gotta say, you are better than the OM deserves. He's a POS. And in your heart, you know it. Even if your H never comes to his senses and your M doesn't recover, you do not need OM or anyone like him! Don't go down that road! I know you are hurting and lonely, but you know that OM is not capable of truly fulfilling your needs. He will not respect your boundaries at all. You know this. Be strong - you can get through this!
Hi Seeking

Thanks for the article it was an interesting read. There were quite a few parts that hit home, mainly 2 sections:

Reason #6: How Could He Be So Different From You?

AND

Reason #7: He Lies

they hit home quite a bit. It's weird I find it really difficult to accept that my H is abusive and I am sure other people would be surprised, but I find it difficult to tell people, not because I am embarrassed but think they won't believe me or I am just being bitter!

Yes got myself together re OM. Antena put it well I don't need anymore complications in my life right now.
I have been thinking what I would do if H did come back into my life and I really don't know what I would do, I don't think I could go back there ever again. In fact I know I couldn't. As more time passes he looks even more unappealing choice.

Right now I need some alone time, to not have to need anyone. I am too vulnerable at the moment.

I feel some kind of inner peace and smile at today. I think I may get through this just fine.
Oh and this one!


Reason #5: You Love the Lovable In Him

Worried that I will never be able to pick a good man!
I have a question about OM & OW in general.

If I made a terrible mistake, is he not capable either?

I just need to understand this once and for all.

My OM seemed like a good person, one of things that attracted me to him pre A was the way he was with other people, he always seemed to protect others, didn't like back stabbing, stuck up for those who were having some difficulty, what you saw was what you got, he looked after his sick father, supported his sister financially, was indepandant and took responsibility and was not concerned with image or materialism. He agreed with me that he had done a terrible thing and felt very guilty about it but wanted to spend his life with me.

I am not saying that I want to be with him or will contact him, but I am still
confused about his values as a person.

The reason I raise this is until I understand this is so I can put this to bed.

Thank you

Harmony
I don't have an answer to your question but I sort of have the same one.

Most (although not all) of the FWW and FWH on here were OW and OM...so, if they can be redeemed couldn't your OM or mine or anyone elses?

Not saying I care to find out, I just have a hard time vilifying anyone who did what I did when I know I am making positive changes.

In my case the OM was not married. I am not defending him but I feel what I did was much worse as I had a husband and family to protect.
Harmony,

Stop trying to find the good in OM. If you obsess about this it will cause you to make bad decisions and erase much of the good work you have been doing on you.

Besides, didn't you say he was using drugs as well? I'm pretty confident you said something about that on your thread unless I am confused with somebody else.

So, he is a drug user and he sleeps with married women? Sounds like a real winner to me!

How well do you really know OM? You think you know him but do you really? All of those other things could have been a facade created by OM to reel you in. Maybe none of it is even true?!?

In the end, it doesn't matter. There are so many truly good men out there. Trust your boundary work and that you have a much improved 'picker' now. You need a fresh start with a new healthy person.

Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/21/10 04:50 PM
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[quote]My OM seemed like a good person, one of things that attracted me to him pre A was the way he was with other people, he always seemed to protect others, didn't like back stabbing,

Ok, I think you are making him into a fantasy and that is the problem with A. They are all a fantasy. Have you lived to a single day of reality with this man. I mean did you have to deal with everyday life with him (bills, housekeeping, etc..)
I can tell you that he does back stabbing...to your own H. He sleept with his wife. Nice! Really nice.
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stuck up for those who were having some difficulty,
Sure, he had no problem shagging you and listening to your marital problems when you needed him to. Sleazy is the word that comes to mind.
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what you saw was what you got,
What you saw is what you wanted to project into him. Somebody who mirrored your needs and made you feel good...for the time being.

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he looked after his sick father, supported his sister financially, was indepandant and took responsibility and was not concerned with image or materialism.
That's what you saw in the brief amount of time you were with him,,,or maybe he told you so and you never really witnessed it yourself. They like to be knights in shining armor.

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He agreed with me that he had done a terrible thing and felt very guilty about it but wanted to spend his life with me.
Drama queen, all right.
Sleeping and wanting to be with someone else's H or W means you are messed up in some way or the other.
It is condemned by most cultures and religions in the world. It shows poor boundaries and little self respect and very very low self esteem
blessing
Thanks sunNydaze

I just need to really understand this, it is important for me as I go forward. I suppose it helps my use of boundaries.

Yes guys thanks your right, I think I have still some form of addiction to him, because I believed what he created for me to see.

I am glad I posted this as I really need to put this behind me.

He is not right for me, I want him to be also as I am scared I will pick the wrong man and I am scared I won't pick anyone of value and concerned how long that will be ???!!!! Ahhh.



I�m glad you brought up OM. You are fighting a war on several fronts, and NC is still one of them. Don�t neglect the importance of defending that boundary.

Why don�t you turn that list of qualities that you admired in OM, whether he had them or not, and expand it into a list of qualities you would like to see in your mate?

I don�t know if you had a list of qualities you wanted in a mate before you got married. I sure didn�t. I made one recently though and it has been invaluable in validation of my H, communicating in positive terms, and identifying where I need to set my boundaries. Just watching a TV show together can provide me an opportunity to point out traits I admire (hint, hint H) and make positive comparisons between my H and the character (he�s so funny, just like you).

I�m going to weigh in on the changing the locks issue. In general, if your name is on the deed, you have as much right to change the locks as you do to paint the living room ceiling purple. The legal issue would arise when you refuse access to the home as he has a legal right to access. But you haven�t done that. If you change the locks and he wants access he�s going to have to ask through your IM, and that person can arrange for access without you present.

I don�t like you being there alone with him free to come and go. He drives drunk, which is a big deal here, but I know it is a MUCH bigger deal there and a telling fact on his poor judgement. I�m afraid he�s going to get drunk one night and decide to pay you a visit. There is no good outcome to such a meeting and lots of really bad ones.

I also like that you are in possession. There is at this point nothing stopping him from moving right back in while you are at work as he still has an equal right to access, and then you have to either get him out or get out. Possession is, in fact, 9/10ths of the law.

Originally Posted by Hitch2007
I find it really difficult to accept that my H is abusive.

This is almost always the case. It�s part of the dynamic. I�ve done some work with victims of domestic violence. One woman whose husband beat her refused to believe he was abusive because �I know he doesn�t like his pickle cut up that way but I did it anyway.� That is a true story. I still shake my head.
Hi Seeking

I am going to see my solicitor tomorrow, so hopefully I can get her advice about changing the locks. I spoke to her over the phone but can explain the situation better face to face.

Anyway. I have been out at my interior design course tonight, and he has been back to pick up his mail. He knows I go every Thursday so did it knowing I would be out.

I feel a bit in catch 22, because if I don't change the locks he could have a few drinks one night and come back (fairly unlikely but possible) and get angry,

or

I could change the locks and he could pop back to pick up his mail, and not be able to get in and get very angry, then maybe get revengeful and make a point of moving back in ect...and I will have to move out.

Sorry I am making a big deal out of this, but my overall aim is to get him out of the house, and me be able to stay in the house without any upheaval. I don't bloody know. It is not because I want him back it is to get out of this marriage and smoothly as possible.

Anyway, qualities that I would like in a man (this is easy to do):

Responsible
Caring
Considerate
Independant
Mature
Respectful
Fun
Outgoing
Adventurous
Zest for life

Ahhh...Is that a good list? I have not done it in a priority or anything. Seeking - share with me yours???

Harmony

PS> I still cant get my head round filing for D although I know I should go straight ahead and do it, and the no contact with H is not an issue as I have no desire to contact him at all!!
In reference to my list above, most men are going to come across like that in the beginning, to use Constants words, how do you sort the wheat through the chaff?

I am not looking for a man right now ofcourse I am not going to do this until I have filed, but just questions thats all.

Thanks guys I am very appreciative of everything you are doing here to help me.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/21/10 09:28 PM
Did you notice that you didn't include "faithful" on your list? I'm just saying.

Anyways, I am coming to the OM/OW discussion a little late. It is the right thing to NOT think about OM. You will fantasize about him and remember all of the "good" things about him. Completely normal, but something you must change in yourself.

I will touch on this in a general sort of way. OM/OW have very weak boundaries. They do not have a good moral code as they slept with a married person. They either were married themselves and broke their own vows, or they had complete disregard for the vows taken by their AP that they chose to act selfishly to get what THEY wanted. They don't give a darn about the other person. They care about no one but themselves. Most of the time, the WS in an active affair, isn't concerned about their own children. It is all about ME ME ME.

There may be some decent qualities in an OM/OW but the qualities brought out by the affair trumps them.

I have often said that the best relationship is one where the two parties bring out the BEST in each other. In an affair, the AP's bring out the worst. A relationship built on that foundation is DOOMED.
How do you separate the wheat from the chaff?

Time, patience, honesty.

Despite your painful situation, Harmony, you have gained tons of insight and a toolbox of knowledge on how a relationship SHOULD be. How a good relationship can be created and maintained - you now know that storybook fantasy love isn't real, and doesn't last forever. You know what it means to "work at it every day."
OK H, add faithful on there (oversight? assumption? willing to settle for less than because you feel less than?).

Now, make two more lists. One of the most Undesirable Traits, and one for Deal Killers.

I am actually going somewhere with this exercise.....
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Yes guys thanks your right, I think I have still some form of addiction to him, because I believed what he created for me to see.

I am glad I posted this as I really need to put this behind me.

He is not right for me, I want him to be also as I am scared I will pick the wrong man and I am scared I won't pick anyone of value and concerned how long that will be ???!!!! Ahhh.

We KNOW why your scared. We are trying to show you how to live outside of that fear, not find a way to appease it with another idiot.

What you imagined in OW was what he played on towards you. They all put forward their best appearance. What scotty said rings true. His willingness to sleaze his way in on a marrige in trouble and sleep with a married woman trumps any and all good crap he was selling you. That is not an action of a man who cares about a woman. "Wow , gee, if i sleep with you it will help your marriage and future relationships" What a hero, what a friend.

What do you think?, that other men don't have women in trouble who show they are attracted to them? How do other men act? Do they take atvantage of a female friend or do they empathsize and point to counsel? This guy was a weakling and not interested in helping you, he dragged you down to the scum he is. What a wimp.

All of what he said and even if he did portray some good guy his actions reveal the truth, he thinks with the wrong head and sex is his priority. He thinks it more important than love and that is what love is. I don't care how much you through yourself at him and you want to believe he couldn't help himself, he could if he had any nuts.

I can say I have know many men including myself that could justify an A but wouldn't even when an opportunity presented itself beacuse they knew it was bullchit. Two wrongs don't make a right and he did not care about you more than what he could use you for. As far as his efforts to apoligize and still wants a relationship with you... puke double puke Of course! hes pathetic, he knows you will take all kinds of crap from your current H so he looks good right now in comparison. In the end he would be jealous if you didn't take as much crap from him. Your an easy mark for his con. Don't try to be so understanding and accept this tripe, you are and will be better than that and it will take some time till you see it. First get yourself together and practice some patience.


Get yourself together Harmony and stop letting your emotions run you like this, both your H and this OM are losers and have done nothing to prove differently. You don't need to have a guy to make you valuable. You have got to work on that OK?

Harmony,

You are turning to the "image/fantasy" of OM out of fear. You don't want to be alone, that is my guess. You fear the future, when in fact you just starting to have a future.

We talked about boundaries...alot right? The reason wasn't just to protect you from your H or even your OM, it was to allow you to stand on your own. You should not be afraid of that.

I have always had the theory that people need to be alone before they can be good company. If you are alone you will have time to think, time to examine, and time to find out what is really important in your life. As you do this, you ability to pick a good man will mature and grow. You were seeking support and a light to fend off the darkness with these men, and thus you could not see what you needed to see.

When YOU become the light in your life, you will see people more clearly you will seek a man that makes a good companion as much or more than you will see a man for support (by support I mean emotional not just financial).

Harmony it is my opinion that to share a life with someone you must first be independent. It gives you the strength to "become one" with another and be able to add to the union. You don't want to marry your father, nor do you want to marry a little boy. One treats you as a child and the other expects you to mother them.

Some of the traits of the OM you mentioned seem fine, but they come encased in a man that had no problem dating a married woman. Has he changed. At the risk of sounding political, I live in CA and we have the Mayor of SF running for Lt. Gov. I will NEVER vote for this man. He had an affair with his best friends W. A man like that should NEVER be entrusted with any power/influence/other peoples money. I am sure his current W loves him, he is a tall handsome guy, but he is flawed.

Some of the traits of your H are fine, but they seem and I seem to be encapsulated in a man that has serious character flaws. If you had boundaries in place his flaws would have clashed with them, and you would have known to move on.

Your potential is clear Harmony, what remains to be seen is if you will allow it to become not a potential but a part of who you are. If you do, you will have a good life. Men will be attracted to you and you will then be able to chose a man that suites you and you him.

Just thoughts, I hope they help.

God Bless,

JL
Harmony,


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I am not saying that I want to be with him or will contact him, but...

Do you know what no contact is? It is not just a physical IRL or virtual no contact over Internet. It is also NOT THINKING about him and NOT DWELLING on his qualities.

Why is no contact necessary?

Dr Harley has said:

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I will leave you with another important point. I've already expressed my conviction that after an affair is over, there should be no contact between a spouse and his or her lover. But there is a related issue that is often ignored. When you marry, neither you nor your spouse should have any contact with any of your previous lovers. Anyone that you've ever loved is a temptation for you, and has the potential of re-igniting your feelings of love.

Please, please read Mark's thread about how to deal with your memories and start practising, as Scotland said you need to change that in you.

I bumped it up for you in Recovery section, too. This is what helped me right after my own affair.

I understand your wish to understand this OM stuff, but it won't help you one bit, because every time you think about him, you are breaking no contact. You did what you did because you had no boundaries and you didn't care. He did what he did because exactly the same thing. Now, you have an excellent opportunity to learn about boundaries and MB concepts and move on, OM is not yours to save.

Analysing OMs good qualities as of what qualities a man should have and putting him in the centre of your list and expanding it - this exercise puzzles me, really. Why do you need to do it?
Thanks Niitse

I will have a read of the link, How do you stop thinking about someone?? I did ask SH about this and he said to treat it like a hot potato! Everytime it comes into your head, you go oh no, and ouch!!

I am in an excellent position at the moment, and since I had that serious 2x4 from JL, I am feeling good. I need to be able to self soothe myself though and prevent from going down that track.

I guess the next challenge will be when my H trys to have contact with me, although I have not heard anything which is good.

I am sure he is fine.
Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/22/10 09:52 AM
Ok, and Steve also told you not to change the locks so there you have it.
Your H is fine, the way these people are...nothing effects them that much. They need drama in their life so whatever provides it...circumstances change but the drama is the same/
Hoping for him to suffer whatever consequences is a game that might take a long long time.
Take care of yourself
blessing
I think what I said is being completely misunderstood.

The point was not to get you to focus on OM's good qualities. To the contrary. I was trying to shift your focus to use that list as a starting point for what you would want in an ideal mate.

The point is to get you to focus on what qualities are important to you.

If you makes the lists and go back in fills in the data points in support of each quality, I think what you will find is that you knew everything you needed to know about your H when you got married, but didn't listen to yourself.

My hope was in recognizing that you actually knew what you needed to know, but didn't listen to herself, you will feel more confident that you will make a better decision in the future and a reference point for behaviors that you would want your H to have or work on developing if he decides he wants to reconcile.

My other point was to give you a another reference point for what qualities she should focus on working on in yourself. I think Ben Franklin did that -- listed qualities and consciously worked on developing them one by one.

That was it.
I totally got where your coming from Seeking.

I will have a look at this. I suppose I know what qualities I would like in a guy, the question is every one puts themselves in the best light. It's been able to detect red flags!

Anyway right now the thought of being with anyone is (how do you do those puking icons) blahhhhhhh.

I feel really free though as though this huge ball and chain has been released. It's obviously a good thing. Still having weird dreams, dreamt last night that H and I were good friends and was in love with his bro! Weird....Am I meant to feel this good? Feel on a bit of a high.....

I have a nice weekend planned going to an art exhibition tonight with mum and sis, then tomorrow dinner with a GF.

I still don't really have an answer to your question JL. I suppose I don't know still what my potential is. My behaviour during the A was appalling, after the A I sunk into denial and self justification. I would say in the last 3 months I feel the best about myself since perhaps ivwas about 19.

I tend to do destructive acts when I am very low or have been hurt in someway.

I suppose that I take my boundaries too seriously and become very extreme.

I would now like to take some time being comfortable on my own and enjoying life and being happy. I

Harmony,

Let's look at what you just said.
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I still don't really have an answer to your question JL. I suppose I don't know still what my potential is. My behaviour during the A was appalling, after the A I sunk into denial and self justification. I would say in the last 3 months I feel the best about myself since perhaps ivwas about 19.
Potential? Let's see... toe tap Can you be better than the woman that had the A? Can you do better than feel better than you have since you were 19? Can you be a person in your work that people depend on? Could you be a person that could run your section, your division, your company? If not, what would it take for you to be in that position? Can you be a woman that can love a man for who he really is not who you think he is? Can you be strong enough to avoid justification and denial and become someone that sees ways to address issues without affairs or these other traits? Can you be a good chef? Can you be an artist? Can you be an effective leader in charitable organizations? Could you be an effective person in your chosen religion? Can you be an ordinary woman who affect people with extrordinary sensitivity, clarity, compasion, and honesty? I'm thinking you can be any of these things if that is what you want.

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I tend to do destructive acts when I am very low or have been hurt in someway.
These are poor coping skills and estabilishing your boundaries should be accompanied with planned actions that allow you to address these situations with effectiveness and strength. You are not a victim and that should be one of your boundaries is that you may be victimized by someone but you refuse to remain a victim.

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I suppose that I take my boundaries too seriously and become very extreme.
Nope you have not taken your boundaries too seriously, you just haven't taken the next step. What is the next step, that is to develop plans to address your boundaries in situation appropriate manners. Once you have the plans in place you will find that taking them seriously is not the issue.

Allow me to illustrate. I was a batchelor until my 30's. I was single, I had some change in my jeans, I had several degrees, and I traveled alot. I have a very "enjoyable" batchelorhood. When I got married I knew my job would require a great deal of travel as I was taking over the building of a company. My boundary was that I would never cheat on my W. To address this I made a plan. When I travel, I never go to bars, I don't go where there is dancing. I eat alone unless there are a group of people who are at the same meeting. I am NEVER alone with a female and I don't share personal information with anyone. I simply eat, go back to my room and either work or read. I have done this for well over 30 years. I missed home terribly, but not did I not cheat, I was NEVER tempted to do so, thus my boundary was not challenged. I would love to tell you that I am strong enough of character to withstand any temptation, but I cannot. But I have withstood temptation because I did my best to remove it from my life.

Are you seeing what I am saying about boundaries must be accompanied by plans, and thought out scenarios? You are mature enough now to know how to make those plans. Honestly, in my 20's I had boundaries (never dated a married woman for example), but was not real strong on other parts of the plans. I did know myself though and thus I created that plan.


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I would now like to take some time being comfortable on my own and enjoying life and being happy. I
And this my dear is exactly what everyone is telling you to do. Learn to be comfortable in your own skin. Put music on in your house and sit and enjoy it. Read, think, and examine your life. When you do this you will find that you will learn to really enjoy other people in your life, but you won't need them. At that point I believe you will be ready to engage in a more intimate relationship with a man and with other friends. You will know who you are, where you want to go, how you want to get there, and you will have a path in your life. I have observed that those that have a path in their life often find others traveling similar/the same path and that makes knowing them, loving them, and enjoying them sooo much easier.

Please think about this. I truly believe as you do and you reread the articles on this site, you will come to see the true power of what Harley has put here. He did not invent it, but he has organized in a very effective way.

Hang in there.

JL
Hi JL

As you can see, the potential question has really got me. I have kind of put my 'potential' on hold as I felt that I had done everything and the final piece of the jigsaw was to have a family then I would have 'completed' everything.

I have travelled the world, I have done exceptionally well in my career, I have great friends, I have a good family, I have helped others though charity work of those in crisis, but I have not had a family, so I suppose I just gave up 'trying' in all other areas as nothing else seemed to matter.

However, now I am separated, I know that I need to meet my full potential.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
Can you be a person in your work that people depend on? Could you be a person that could run your section, your division, your company? If not, what would it take for you to be in that position?


I have always been quite ambitious at work, until recently, probably the last 4 years. However, since I left my old company because of A, I have joined a new company and am actually really enjoying it. I could definetly put more into it.... I think I would be happier doing so. Its just to me I don't want to be one of those women that a career is more importanmt than a family or partner.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
Can you be a woman that can love a man for who he really is not who you think he is?


Yes definetly, I could never fall in love with an image or a promise, my concern is not seeing through a person...

Originally Posted by Just Learning
Can you be strong enough to avoid justification and denial and become someone that sees ways to address issues without affairs or these other traits?


Yes I think I can, I think for me I need to trust my instincts more and not feel bad for speaking up or being who I am. A lot of the resentment built with my H because I kept quiet to preventy being awkward or difficult so did not voice my opinion enough. I would definetly trust my instincts more and I think if I was more assertive with my H, then we would have broke up much earlier as he wouldnt have liked that.

I think overall, I am feeling much more able to achieve my full potential, I am just afraid by focusing on all these other things what I truly want won't happen.

I know this is not true but doing it is another thing.

I do think your right though, protecting your boundaries is also putting plans in place. For example, when my attraction started for the OM, there was neither anything emotional or physical happening, he was just there in the office and I was attracted to him, either seeing him or meetings or having lunch with a group of people. I was very concerned about my attraction to him, we had not spoken about anything personal, but I was concerned about the level of my feelings for him, they were very powerful, I was aware of his every move, and if we were in a crowded room out eyes would follow each other.

Anyway, a business trip came up for India where we would both be going. Now as soon as I knew about the business trip I was nervous I knew it was not a good idea. I put in for a transfer onto a different account, which meant I would not go on the business trip. The transfer was made efffective 3 weeks AFTER the business trip. The first night of the trip the OM and I were left alone in a bar after everyone else went to bed, and we carried on drinking. The rest is history.

So if I had put plans in place, I would have never gone on the business trip, if I did go I would have not stayed on my own in the the bar with him, I would have mentioned my H lots....So I know what to do here for the future.

I really am enjoying being alone. I am still fearful about getting fretful about H, about hearing something and getting upset or how I will cope with filing for D.

On the whole right now, I feel very happy, but could do with standing up, dusting myself down and reaching my full potential.
Actually Harmony it seems to me you are reaching your potential. You should be very proud and you should be very encouraged. You do see how my plan would have saved you if you had one like it when in India.

I will tell you there are many people on this planet that can be very attractive to us. If you travel at all, you will meet more than one. The solution is not to quit or change jobs, it is to make sure you have a plan for protecting your boundaries/weaknesses. If you noticed I implied that meeting women was not a problem for me. I wanted to make sure this "talent/weakness/temptation did not really occur.


From the sounds of it, you have had and will have no trouble attracting men. You issue is finding a man that can make your life complete. As for having children, you are still young and your clock is probably at least a decade from running out. Where I live many folks have children in their 40's and even late 40's for the women. I had a friend visit us once when my kids were in HS. We went to see my son play. He commented that it was really cool to see all of the grandparents come to the game. I laughed and pointed out, they were not grand parents, they were the parents. MrRollieEyes . He was suprised.

There are pluses and minuses for being older when you have children. I think the pluses outweight the minuses. Us "older" folks have more time and resources to devoted to kids.

Harmony, you are becoming an even better person than you were. Enjoy that, and grow.

God Bless,

JL

That is so true, JL. Recently I saw an article in my hometown paper about parents who in their 70s, had teenagers. They had chosen to have children in their 50s because they had more time and resources to devote to the children and were set up in their careers.
Very awesome progress Harmony. I am glad to hear you have had a lot of success in your life prior to meeting H, that your life has been full and positive for the most part.

Of course what is being talked to you about by mindshare, seeking, Nitse and others is you are working on your picker now. That I can relate to. As many can attest their are interesting people out there with great qualitys and chemistry but it doesn't mean they are good relationship material.

Wonderful qualitys that seem to be waiting to emerge and it seems you/we can make a difference in thier life. Where you got caught up in is what I see as a normal reaction towards support for someone in the name of love. Until the true character came out of the individual you were supporting/enabling. There is a fine line between the two. Its happened to many of which one was myself.

Then they blame thier problems on us and we buy it to some extent and over time it gets worse and we buy more until we are miserable and want a way out. Sometimes its the act of an affair which is destructive to the person commiting it as to the future of the marriage. Sometimes there is counseling and joint growth. Sometimes separation and divorce.


This is what I needed to learn a long time ago, but didn't until later, but I did learn it, in some ways, the hard way. My wife was a wonderful person and I would not accept that she couldn't address the areas in her life that caused her so much misery. I tried to bear the pain from drinking and many other issues for her and could not help her that way. Separation helped but core issues were not addressed and they again raised their ugly head later.

Finally being so vested and entrenched and with children who knew a different Mom I could not give up or help her when she fell at last, but I limped along and loved her for who she was at one time and who she could have been to this day. Much of this was to show the children how to deal with life and keep them from losing all hope in the desire to carry on what my wife and I started.

We both wanted a marriage in which the children were loved and secure, and we understood what that required, but the issues that plagued her life she lived in denial of eventually caught up to her anyway, even though I stayed and pleaded and even at times insisted she get counsel and help.

I loved her a lot, refused to believe, for her, that she would not eventually hit bottom and change, that she would respect my sacrifice and see how much I/We loved her and reach out and get real help, but it came with a price, and I will do anything to help others avoid that. Specially my children.

That is what I think you might have been heading if you had children with this guy. Not that your life or circunstances could have mirrored mine but that you would hold on by your fingernails for your family and the core issues your H has would remain until you either divorced or your life would be miserable. Its just so unnesessary to live that way.

Wanted to help you avoid it, and you are doing what it takes.


JL has posted a very balanced and as far as I can see also true assesment of your circumstances and future, along with what you should be working on. His advice is most valuable because he from what I can tell has lived a more normal life than many of us. Good parents, remained a decent human being in his youth, and made good choices. This is the kind of man I desired to be myself. I live with the knowledge that I really have no excuses for my mistakes and will never begrudge someone thier success and all of my problems are up to me to deal with reguardless of what I think or feel was a bad hand I was dealt. We can all grow towards maturity even if we grow at a different rate. Whats important is that we grow.

The reason I say this is using JL as an example of the kind of man that you can be with,(sorry JL), you can look for qualitys that show willingness to grow and mature along with demonstated humility with strength. These men exist out there Harmony, don't sell yourself short. I had a broken picker and picked wrong even though thier were great qualitys in the women I picked, they, and I, really were'nt ready for marriage, even though we wanted it.

Your picker seemed to have some problems too before, Please dream big on the guy you next choose, and be sure he has good character. I know you have learned a lot, but keep on learning. There really is no hurry, you will live and feelmuch better if you take your time.

I have to say that many people use thier misfortunes as an excuse to why they make so many bad choices and I have run into quite a few of them. They feel sorry for themselves. Its a disease in this world. When people want to get better or live a better life they take advice from those who have one, and emulate thier behavior and thoughts. JLs insight is astounding to me as an adult male and I am not afraid to say it because it deserves to be said. Thanks sir for your time and investment here. I for one respect it and have learned from it.

As many have said also, listen to JL Harmony. He is a voice of reason. Along with the others here who care about you.

Just received text from H, 1am in the morning UK time:

This is the hardest thing I have ever had to do and I think about you every second of every day x.

Hmmmmm, timing....
CP,

To butcher a phrase we all have to kiss a few frogs before we find a Princess or a Prince. I definitely did especially in my 20's. I had a tendency for the model types, the pretty life of the party types, and let's not forget those that needed rescuing? Tried all of that but got lucky and avoided anything major before I realized what I needed. When I say lucky I mean I had to have a fiance cheat on me to dodge one particular bullet. That one was tough but I learned.

Heck I am still Just learning. When you live a lot longer than most of you have lived you will be able to reflect back on friends and acquiantances whose marriages were long and rewarding, some that were long and painful, and a lot that where short and painful. But, then upon further review the people that ended up happy, always learned and grew. They always looked at themselves first to figure out what happened.

Bad picker, check. Wanting one thing but needing another, check. High maintence, but work and life too demanding to maintain, check. Focus on beauty (or for men toys) rather than the important things in life, check. Life of the party for whom the party never ends, check. On it goes.

The trick, as near as I can tell, is to be well grounded in who you are, what your boundaries are, and what you really need in a partner. This last one always triggers the famous saying
Quote
Children NEED what they want, adults want what they NEED.


You take all of this stuff and then look at the MB program and you begin to see why Harley has the four rules for a good marriage, the policies of joint agreement and radical honesty, the questionairs on love busters, and the questionaire on needs. They lead one to start to evaluate what is important, what they need, and how to tell if someone matches up well. This stuff is really simple but it is subtle and it is not easy.

Must go getting late here.

God Bless,

JL
The text message has thrown me, then he turned up at the house this morning whilst I was asleep and woke me up. I didn't speak to him, I stayed in my bedroom. I think he is really struggling, looked the window and saw him he looked upto my window and saw me, I looked away.

For him to send a text like that is quite a big thing for him.

Any thoughts would be welcome.

Harmony x
Harmony,
The text might just mean he is finally realizing he is losing you, it's hard for him but you have to wait him out. Don't give in or he will never change.....
Patience Harmony, this is the key.......
He knows what he is suppose to do, you gave him the Plan B letter now the rest is up to him......if he is to proud then he isn't willing to do the right thing is he.....
Keep being the best you can be and grow as a person.........
What Jessie said....

Wait..patience.. stay dark...there is not gonna be a beauty and the beast thing today.

He needs to answer to for a lot of crap before Steve and your parents, and pass some tests of yours too....and time.

So where are you gonna go and what are you gonna do today now?

TTYL
Posted By: reading Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/23/10 03:41 PM
Harmony,

What your WH is doing is fairly normal. You ARE meeting some of his emotional needs and have been and he is fearful the OW would not be able to down deep in his soul.

You must stay gentle but firm that the guidelines for plan B must be followed to show respect to your feelings. When your WH pops up during B...you kindly tell him you love him but mean what the letter said.

Only time will tell if his being away from you is permanent or temporary.

Only you sticking to your plan will show your WH that you are a woman to be respected. To be treated with fedelity to be with. To be cherished as a wife.

I know it is tough. Believe me.....I know.
Ahem�..actually, you shouldn�t have read the text. You should have deleted it unread.

I know, I know, it�s HARD.

I programmed OM�s number in my phone to pop up as DELETE � CONTAINS VIRUS. Silly I know, but a good reminder. After a while I changed it to DANGER DANGER DANGER � doubt you ever watched Lost in Space but that one made me laugh AND delete.

There is a peace and power in knowing you will be OK alone that is nothing to sneeze at. Choices made from that stable platform will serve you well.

And by the way, all other issues aside, this is EXCELLENT training for raising children.

Now how�s that yellow pad list coming?
This is really HARD. I have had a nice day and put the text to the back of my mind, I went out shopping with a GF and had a nice lunch.

At the end of the day its going to take more than a 1am text after a few drinks...a lot more....He came to the house whilst I was still in bed this morning, I didn't speak to him, I just stayed in my room he came in for 5 mins then went. He did the same last Saturday morning, I think he does this to to see if I am with anyone.

I will be honest that text has thrown me a little, I was on course. He is obviously struggling. I don't understand, he knows I love him and have tried to make it work, he is obviously struggling, why hasn't he come round and tried to talk? Pride before a fall?

Seeking - the yellow pad list is coming along quite nicely, started to make a few plans, and actually have the next few weekends booked up with some fun things. I am going to a friends birthday next weekend in London to this new restaurant, the weekend after I have a bonfire night party! I have made a start with my yellow pad list...:

* Go to Florence for the weekend, it is suppose to be beautiful, and wander around some of the museums.
* Get really into my interior design course, and put 100% effort into homework..really enjoying this class
* Go to the opera (never been)
* Spend some more time with my Dad
* Learn to kite surf
* Grow my own veggies

Well, its a start!! It is really difficult to plan anything too adventorous, for example some GFs have mentioned about going away for NYE, I am thinking well what happens if I book it, then my H has a real change of heart...

Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/23/10 07:07 PM
Harmony, being in Plan B isn't easy.

You need to not only NOT read the text messages(Good call Seeking), you should change your number or at MINIMUM block his(t/j Seeking, why haven't you changed your number? Even seeing that he sent you something will be CONTACT my dear).

You also should NOT have looked out of the window to see him. Also, I know that you haven't decided to change the locks(although I really think that you should), could you go stay somewhere else for a while? Somewhere that your WH will not be able to find you?

You are getting a "fix" everytime that your WH contacts you. You say to yourself, "See he really DOES love me." Well, he will try a new approach when this one doesn't work It WILL escalate. Please, cut off all contact. As good as it feels, it's not worth it.

Either that, or stop your Plan B and dive right back into what you already had in life. How was that working for ya?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/23/10 07:17 PM
Quote
It is really difficult to plan anything too adventorous, for example some GFs have mentioned about going away for NYE, I am thinking well what happens if I book it, then my H has a real change of heart...

You can't live your life on "what ifs."

Right now, you need to end ALL CONTACT with your WH so you can move on with your life. Walk forward and don't look back. Choose your own path. IF your WH decides to join you on that path, HE has to catch up. Start walking.
I know your right Scotland, it is hard. I have done quite well as I have not had a single conversation with him.

I should not have looked out of the window and he caught me too, ahhh frown

I think I am frightened to take the next step....and let him know I am serious. I think he will be very surprised that I have not initiated contact with him.

I really really don't want to leave my home, its really important as part of my recovery that I am here as thats my safety net.

SH did advise not to change the locks or remove his stuff though...hmmmm, maybe this is whats needed to let hubbie know I am very serious.

The text has thrown me today, and I need to get back on track, like tomorrow!!!!!

Since I went Plan B he has tried the following

1. Going dark on me
2. Being 'nice' by sending the tiler round
3. Trying to get sympathy vote, saying he has nowhere to go
4. Sendig me 'love' text telling me how hard he is finding it

What next?

Harmony x
Originally Posted by Scotland
Quote
It is really difficult to plan anything too adventorous, for example some GFs have mentioned about going away for NYE, I am thinking well what happens if I book it, then my H has a real change of heart...

You can't live your life on "what ifs."

Right now, you need to end ALL CONTACT with your WH so you can move on with your life. Walk forward and don't look back. Choose your own path. IF your WH decides to join you on that path, HE has to catch up. Start walking.


Yes your right, I have been weakened by his text, I need to keep walking as though he is never coming back.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/23/10 07:27 PM
Well, he could just move right back in and decide that he will be OPEN about his affair.

THAT is a HUGE what if.

What you need to do is focus on yourself. You need to cut off ALL avenues of contact that he would have so it doesn't throw you again.
Yo Rapunzal standing in the upstairs window looking romantically lonely!

News flash: your hair isn't going to grow that long.

He is OUT of your decision tree.

Book the trips. Florence is lovely any time of year.

Go all in on the class.

The only person limiting you is ..... YOU.

And change the ;@@&? locks. He is clever. Everyone who follows your thread knows it. He is about to be clever and really mad. I don't think this is safe for you.
Harmony,

A change of heart is NOT what you are looking for. It is counseling, a complete change of perspective, and addressing his abusive manner.

By the way would you H join you in these activities you have listed? If not, he is the wrong guy. THis is what I mean about a path in life. His path needs to be parallel to yours for this to have a chance.

SH, is trying to save your marriage hence his suggestions. I think most of us are trying to get you on your feet in life and then see about the marriage.

So please inform of the actions of your H in the last 6 months that you miss. I don't recall many, but that is just my perspective.

Think about it.

JL
Hi All

Not a good update I am afriad.

Stayed in last night on my own. H turned up at the house about 11pm drunk as a skunk. He walked in and sat in his office. I went and saw him and asked what he was doing here, here are some of the things he said:

* That I had been seen out with a man
* That I have been trying to snoop and find out what he has been upto
* That he had seen the pack of condoms in my bedroom drawer (gave to me by the STD clinic when I got tested last week)
* That 'someone' had been to the house as the wedding photo was faced down.
* That the OW had told him to come and talk to me to see where I was coming from
* Why had I packed up his stuff - how could I be so awful

There was no reasoning with him, and I asked him to leave and he said no. Then he started to get nasty and say:

* That he was in a complete mess, had hardly eaten, and I was the 'culprit'
* That I had messed up his whole life
* That I had no morals
* That he was going to smash the house up, then started to play with some scissors in a threatening way

I was frighted the whole time and left the front door open. Then he seemed to calm down and went into the lounge and asked me to sit with him, he then started to fall asleep so I said to him to go upto the spare room. He was too drunk to drive anywhere.

The he begged me to lie in bed with him and cuddle and I am ashamed to say that I did and more. This morning, I woke up got very angry and asked him to leave. As he was in a more sober state he said:

* That he missed me terribly
* That moving my stuff out of our other property hurt him
* He didn't understand why we couldn't have any contact

I just wanted him out of the house, and told him to leave, I wasn't willing to discuss anything further with him and that I did not want any further contact. I then got really upset and started crying and I told him to leave straight away.

Then shortly after I called the police for advice, let them know that I felt threatened, they have logged it on their system, if he does it again then someone will be out in 10-15 minutes. I don't have to press charges just that they will remove him and scare him enough not to do it again.

OK, go easy on me, I am really annoyed. I feel like all the hard work that has been done has been thrown away and that it has churned me all up again. I know that he is going to be a complete nightmare, and I have to get the locks changed but he is going to go MAD.

Go easy, I feel terrible.
I feel like all the hard work has been to waste, I am so so annoyed.
Are you getting supportive counseling to see why you are so weak around men? You have a problem, a bigger problem then we can help you with, if you have sex with a totally drunk man who abuses you.

Then! You call the police after sleeping with him? This does not seem normal to me. I would get the locks changed and get a very loud alarm system that calls the police immediately if he trys to break in.

Unless you want him to continue to come over and then you can keep having sex with him because you are so lonely...then do nothing.

Why have sex with him when he is boinking the other woman too? Did you use the condoms at least?
Bubbles

I really find your post unhelpful. I have had one moment of being weak around him. To say I have a problem is just harsh, I had one blip and it's not going to happen again, I have not instigated contact with him once

I know what your point is and in many ways your right, I have already said I am annoyed at myself.

I am changing the locks, the reason I phoned the police is because I want to
know what I can do if he turns up again when drunk. I will call them if he does it again.

Harmony
I beg to differ. You had weakness during your entire marriage with this man. Then, you were weak when you made love with the other man. There is nothing wrong with admitting you are weak around men, many women are. But admitting the truth or becoming aware of the truth is the first step toward healing.

Until you can become strong around all men, you will have problems in life. A counselor could help you with this tendancy to be weak around men and to allow abusers in your life if they say the right things for the moment.
I am really really annoyed with myself. I wish I hadn't even posted this now as I am going to get a load of [censored] but I already know what an idiot I have been. I suppose I felt sorry for him.

I am better than this and am getting myself back on track.

Stand up, pack a bag and leave right now.

You are not safe.

The most dangerous time for abused women is immediately after they leave their abuser.

That�s right now for you.

Have your father meet the locksmith tomorrow.

Please Harmony � I had a beautiful friend whose husband basically decapitated her with scissors the day he was to move out. I couldn�t have been more surprised if an armchair had murdered her. The scissors came from her three year old who was going to use them to cut the lamp cord he was using to strangle her.

They �whys� can wait. If it makes you feel any better, there is nothing unusual about your behavior � it�s what abused women do.

Get someplace safe for a few days.
Posted By: reading Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/24/10 04:18 PM
Fret not Harmony.

You didn't mess up anything.

You actually did okay for a newbee B person dealing with a drunk, weepy, messed up wayward who made himself at home. Even the cuddling/more episode isn't the end of the world.

Obviously, you DO MEET many of his EMOTIONAL NEEDS.

Good!

Now, get your "big girl" moving onward in your plan B to make your stand.

You stand for a monogamous, committed marriage.

You are firm in your resolve and though you love him, you will not accept crumbs.

He was difficult to deal with, yes. You keep calm in the face of that drunk, crazy, messed up guy and you firmly, but calmly let him know. You will not allow him to
cause you any additional emotional abuse. He will have to meet your plan B guildlines and earn his way back to the marriage. Until then, he must respect that you need no contact to heal from the suffering his infedelity has caused you.

Gentle, firm, resolute.
Yes,, get your friends and your family to support you in leaving him and staying away from him. Then please girl, get some supportive counseling for the abuse issues. You can improve and you will then NEVER BE TEMPTED TO BE AROUND ABUSIVE MEN AGAIN!!!

Did you start believing what he was saying to you? He is unstable, please protect yourself.
Harmony, I know you must be feeling bad today for what has happened....brush yourself off and start again, this isn't the easiest thing in the world to do.....
But this is the reasons you should go to a lawyer and get yourself a legal separation, and then change the locks on the doors.......you have to stop him from just thinking he can come back into your life when he wants when he hasn't done anything to fix what is wrong........he is hurting I think you see that but he is not handling himself in a very mature way.......I would send him another Plan B letter and make sure you explain to him why the NO CONTACT thing has to be in place, tell him when he gets the help he needs then you would be willing to go to MC with him to see if anything can be resolved, you make sure that he knows it's not just about what you did it's about how he is as a person......and how he reacts and conducts himself, make sure he knows this is unacceptable.......
1 step forward, 2 steps back now reverse 2 steps forward stop don't go back.....that's the plan from now on......oh and by the way.....(((hugs))))
When I broke off with a dysfunctional boyfriend I was with for 14 years, I let him come back a few times. Then, I finally was strong enough to keep him away.
Harmony,

It must be hard for you. This thing was about to happen because you left the door open, quite literally.

Quote
I know that he is going to be a complete nightmare, and I have to get the locks changed but he is going to go MAD.

Re-read the bolded part and this time leave no holes in your plan. Secure yourself against him. Otherwise, you'll become his enabler.
Others can correct me but I would have someone e-mail him and warn him in writing that:

1. You have changed the locks
2. He is not to come harrass you again
3. You have an alarm system that calls police should he try and break in
4. You will take legal action if he tries to break in.

That way, he is not surprised if he comes over again and trys to use his key and THEN GETS MAD.

His anger will be dissapated since your IM has explained this all to him ahead of time.
Posted By: reading Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/24/10 07:14 PM
I suggest doing it this way

Have IM let him know that
1. You have changed the locks
2. He is to respect that you need him to not contact you to allow you to deal with your pain
3. If he tries to contact you or come to the home you will need to take legal action to enforce it since it is so important to your own peace of mind
4. You mean everything you said in the plan B letter and it is his map back home should he ever be able to be up the task.




Harmony, this is most likely a long haul and not a quick thing to resolve. Just know that you will come out a better person if you stay calm, firm, and avoid love busters when facing challenges in it.
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Did you start believing what he was saying to you? He is unstable, please protect yourself.


Hi Bubbles,

I didn't believe ANYTHING he said, I am not drawn in by the wayward babble at all. If anything seeing him like a man 'possessed' is what troubles me the most, the fact that he doesn't want to work at the marriage, the fact that he drinks and drives, the fact that he treats me and others with such disrespect, he is in complete self destruction mode. There is a part of me that still cares but even that is dying.

Is this normal to feel like this? I would have thought so...

He is not going to go quietly thats for sure, he has continued to break the Plan B. I have not instigated contact at all.

I have an appointment with the lawyer Tuesday.

I feel calmer now, but more than anything I am annoyed with myself for getting into bed with him and even more annoyed that he broke my Plan B as I had 2 weeks no contact and feel back at Day 1 again.

I am staying at my sisters tonight and getting the locks changed.

Feeling down right now, I am 34, I have get to get out of this marriage with someone I love who is not capable of being the man I want to be.

I am sure that I will feel better tomorrow after a good nights sleep, I know that he is not going to 'let me go' quietly.

I dont understand, I gave him plenty of opportunity to work on the M, he didn't want it and now he wont leave me alone.

I am in a bit if a flap and don't know what to do next.
Originally Posted by reading
Fret not Harmony.

You didn't mess up anything.

You actually did okay for a newbee B person dealing with a drunk, weepy, messed up wayward who made himself at home. Even the cuddling/more episode isn't the end of the world.

Obviously, you DO MEET many of his EMOTIONAL NEEDS.

Good!


Thanks Reading, I think I was weakened by his text the night before, this is my problem I have to be strong enough to not let him attempts to get to me work. He needs to leave me alone, I am ok after no contact, I build myself up and let him bring me back down again.

I know that I meet many of his EN's and he is so fogged up with self justification ect... that he cant see that.

I am really annoyed for letting him use me like that. I can also see that he is more angry at his loss of control over me, he can't contact me when he wants and is going mad in his head wondering what I am upto.

All I really want is to be settled in a happy M, starting a family not dealing with this rubbish anymore.

I dont understand, I gave him plenty of opportunity to work on the M, he didn't want it and now he wont leave me alone.

Yes...you really WANT them to be rational. But they are not. Nothing adds up. He is irrational and does not and will not make sense (others can explain this)

These abusive, dysrunctional partners seem to SWING back and forth like a rotten mailbox in the wind redflagbased on many things including:

1. How his other relationship is going at the time
2. How much he has had to drink
3. How he feels at the moment
4. How his other living situation is panning out
5. What his friends are telling him at any one moment
6. How horny he is and if OW is sexually available on that particular evening or not....

Yes, you cannot expect him to be rational or make sense. He is going to be unstable. That is why YOU have to determine YOUR direction and learn to stick with it. You can do this!!!
I can't believe he would use me like this, I am so appalled.

What a &%^*())%#@.

Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
6. How horny he is and if OW is sexually available on that particular evening or not....


That just makes me feel sick. He has turned into a monster, thats all I know. I looked at him last night when he was angry and he looked like the devil possessed, he was in a state wandering what I had been upto and who I had been with, making all sorts of accusations. He keeps checking up on me, turning up in the morning or late at night.

I just can't believe this if I am honest, he just seems to get worse not better.

I know I can do this, I just need to pick myself back up again...... frown
I still can't believe how many people are telling me that he is abusive/dysfunctional...I know he is...but hearing it from people here when Ihave only told them the facts is just..well unbelievable really.

I can't believe I have such a strong love for someone who would do this. What an idiot I am.
Remember when you were dating people? Remember how when you broke it off how hard it was? We get bonded to people. That is the way it is. Breaking these bonds is very very hard and painful. Breaking it off with a dysfunctional cheaterman is much harder since you have had to lie to yourself in order to put up with that bad treatment all these years. It takes a lot of energy to tell yourself the truth instead of believing the lie.

Remember how hard it was for you to break it off with the other affair- guy? You still think about him, right?

Breaking off any love relationship, marriage, or friendship is hard, hard, hard....after a couple months you feel much better.

***But it is much worse to NOT BREAK the bonds of an abusive/cheating relationship.

Yes Bubbles, I am angry because seeing him last night has reset my clock.... frown

I really believed that out M would last for ever and I did not go into this light hearted.

I just feel numb right now at the reality of the situation and who I married.
It took my husband FIVE failed attempts before he could fully quit smoking!
Harmony,

Sorry this happened but I think I can say that just about everybody posting to you KNEW it would happen. I was fairly certain that he is an abusive personality, but what do I know. However, I do know that abuse people don't let go of their victim easily. They will try ANYTHING sweet words, attention, threats, violence to maintain their control. Hence people telling you to change your locks.

You asked
Quote
I dont understand, I gave him plenty of opportunity to work on the M, he didn't want it and now he wont leave me alone.

I am in a bit if a flap and don't know what to do next.
STay away from him is step one. Look up abusers on the web and you will KNOW exactly why your first statement is foolish. He has done nothing wrong. It is all your fault, he doesn't have to work on the marriage you do, and finally you are his and he is NOT letting you go.

Any of thoughts make sense in light of last night? He does not want the marriage you want. He had the marriage he wanted with you taking his abuse and doing what he wanted. Then you messed the whole thing up and had an affair, suggesting his control was not complete. What to do? Punish, that is the ticket, so he started to punish you, berate you, abuse the marriage, while telling you all the time it was YOUR fault that you were being punished and that he was not happy.

In one way it was your fault. You stopped being his slave but you have found that you could NEVER be a good enough slave.

Hello Harmony you need a plan, then you need to proceed with your plan. There is no way you can make him happy, and frankly I see little chance he can ever make you happy. He has been too badly damaged by his past. Drugs mess with brain chemistry, some folks are function, some only function in limited capacity. his family of origin have also messed him up, and then there is just plain HIM. He has free will, he has failed to adequately deal with the events of his life. He has failed to become the sort of man that many women want. Fortunately for most women he dumps them for someone else, but in some cases he must be dumped.

You have my take on it. You call.

JL
Just get out of the house till you have the locks changed and you get a restraining order. Its that simple for now.

I told you about the pretty and nice girl I used to know roight? The one who had an abusive boyfriend but she kept insisting he was reeally allright and misunderstood? Ya know, The girl weho the boyfriend caved her head in with a hammer in the woods?
She didn't listen either..


Listen... get out of the house, get a restraining order, and don't go anywhere alone for awhile. It would help if you had a brother who would threatem him also besides the police, I don't think he has any respect for law.


OK, thats what you should be doing, not trying to figure it all out. Just do it.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I know that he is not going to 'let me go' quietly.

You got that right. He is going to do whatever it takes to reclaim his possession.

You need a plan beyond the locks and alarm system. Have a room in the house with an interior lock on the door and a phone inside.

10-15 minutes is an eternity, and that assumes the police take you seriously.

Have a car key and cash and a credit card stashed outside the house so you can leave empty handed if need be.

You may never need any of that, but there is no downside to having it in place.

Things may settle down, but don�t go back to your house without a safety plan in place.

Actually, come to think of it, every woman living alone, regardless of dating/marital status should have that in place. It�s just sensible.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
What an idiot I am.

Replace the word �idiot� with �healer� and I think you will be much closer to the mark.

Reflect on that.

Quote
Otherwise, you'll become his enabler.

A victim never has any responsibility of any sort for the abuser�s conduct, period.

Harmony is no more responsible for her H's abuse than he is for her A.
Still feel a bit low today for many reasons:

1. The fact that he only came round to use me and know that he could still maintain some sort of control over me. Once he knew that he left.
2. A reminder of how much I love and care for him, and how painful it might be to let him go.
3. That he may never want to seek help or recognize that his behaviour is �abusive�.
4. That he is going to make it difficult for me to move on.
5. That I know the right thing to do is end this M as he has far too many issues to deal with.

I was doing so well last week, and am trying to get back to that place.

The police came round last night as a follow up to the call I made. I told them I didn�t want to do anything formal as I think he is just not handling the situation well, and all I wanted to do was protect myself. It was weird when I was telling them about Saturday night, they asked me if he had ever hit me. I said well he has only hit me once under extreme circumstances, then they said and what about before? I then said well he has kicked me a couple of times, but nothing serious. I was thinking, OMG listen to yourself Harmony, you are making excuses for him. They said I should just put a chain on the door so he can�t get in when I am in the house and call them and they will treat it as a priority 1. They said if he turns up drunk then they can come round and remove him but he won�t be arrested unless he touches me.

They also asked me what did I do when I asked him to leave, I said that I didn�t ask him to leave as he was drunk and been driving. Then when they were asking for details, they asked for his car reg. Nightmare. So now I am worried that they are going to catch him drink driving, if he got banned from driving that would be his whole career ruined.

When he comes to pick up his post I am going to leave him a Plan B letter, telling him that it will be more than a change of heart for me to take him back, and that he would need IC for his abusive behaviour and commitment to MB program.

He is on a path of self destruction and it is not good to watch.

For the first time, since he has gone I feel a need to contact him to try and reason with him, stop the drinking and get yourself sorted out. I am not not going to but its hard.


That is really good that the police stopped by. You H should get banned because he has the habit of drunk driving. He is not only a threat to his career but other fellow drivers.

Quote
He is on a path of self destruction and it is not good to watch.

We are what we protect. The question is what will you do? Whom do you protect, yourself or him? Will you proceed with your own plan, your own personal recovery, your future, your potential, or will you follow him on this road?

He will drag you into it, if you don't stay away from him, you know that.

I would like to give you some encouragement, this unfortunate night have told you many things, about him and about yourself, this is valuable information and all you can do is to continue learning. Now, since you have more information, you have a good chance to make better decisions, have a better judgement. You are a brave woman. You don't have to become a superwoman, there are just steps you need to do - changing locks, removing yourself from his paths, blocking his phone number (on a cell and house phone), so he cannot reach you in any way, stop worrying about him and continue working on yourself.
Harmony,

If you slept with WH, which you implied, please tell me there was protection? If not, you better go back to get tested for STD's again right away. There are diseases out there that could ruin your hopes for becoming a mother some day. You need to take care of your own health and well-being.

As for the rest, I agree with everybody else. The raod for your WH to become the kind of person you would want to be married to is going to be a very long one. Personally, I don't think he has it in him. He would have to quit drinking for one thing and I highly doubt he would give that up.

So, talk to the solicitor and get the D filed. Once you are filed you probably have the legal rights to change the locks on the house and keep him out. You simply cannot allow him to come and go as he please any longer. Please explain the whole sitch to the solicitor and follow their advice to the letter.

Sorry you are in a rough spot right now. Obviously, from the traffic on your thread there are plenty of people that care about you. We all want to see you be happy and succeed. In this case, I believe that success is defined as a divorce from the abuser and moving on with your life with all of your new found tools and knowledge.
Well Ok. Somehow its OK for you to stay at the house without any real protection. Thats easy for everyone to say in the interest that he will have a miraculaous chamge.

I guess its OK to take a chance on your health or Hs future freedom.

There is a time when you should pull in the autorities and protect yourself. What the cops did was the only thing they can unless you file charges. Its a senerio I have seen many times and sometimes it ends much more tragic.

He's escalating...

You can go down to your local courthouse today, and file for a protection order, and then have him served, or you can let him flounder without any real authority working in his life untill he does something so bad that he might never forgive himself.

Doesn't anyone GET that? Is this guy above the rules we have in society that are meant to protect us? Yes even the times when we need the law to kick our butt and we cry, "But, but, its not fair! This and this happened and then I felt!..."

Have mercy on this guy somebody please. He needs seriuos help and its too bad if its embarrassing. He will thank you for it later if he ever sees it is for his own good. If he doesn't then well I guess he will use it as another excuse for feeling sorry for himself.

He is not facing anything that all of us have to learn to deal with. Its time someone really loved him enough to show him a way out from himself, his habits, even his own interpretation of his life and self images. He can change but he won't respect what is not authority and strong enough to stop him. Love takes many forms for men, in his case it seems he has yet to realize that and is seperated from the truth.

The world will continue to work like it does, it will not bend to his image of what it should be, the truth will stay the same as it allways has, but there is a way out of this mess he is in. I am not talking about reconciling his marriage, I am talking about saving his life first.

If he comes back and hurts anymore people, including himself, whether it be a car accident or violence towards Harmony, it will set HIM back.


Get someone to be around you and protect you Harmony 24-7, and make him keep the boudaries you need for saftey by getting a restraining order.

All kids get mad when they are forced to do something they don't want to do and they tell you they hate you and you are ruining thier lives. If he allowed to hurt you or others it will be even harder for him to come back.

He will only trust Love if it is strong.
Originally Posted by Niitse
He will drag you into it, if you don't stay away from him, you know that.

I know Niitse, I am trying to get my head straight again, but he has reeled me back in totally and utterly, I will even to go as far and say that he lookd smug Sunday morning. I started crying Sunday morning as he tried to hug me before he left and told him to leave me and go. I don't want to focus on him, it will take me another day to get my head straight and I will be fine.

I am really concerned about his behaviour, it is very erratic. I still love him after all and want him ok.

Originally Posted by mindshare
If you slept with WH, which you implied, please tell me there was protection? If not, you better go back to get tested for STD's again right away. There are diseases out there that could ruin your hopes for becoming a mother some day. You need to take care of your own health and well-being.

No I stupidly did not use protection, so will need to get tested again. How embarassingly stupid.

Originally Posted by mindshare
As for the rest, I agree with everybody else. The raod for your WH to become the kind of person you would want to be married to is going to be a very long one. Personally, I don't think he has it in him. He would have to quit drinking for one thing and I highly doubt he would give that up.

So, talk to the solicitor and get the D filed. Once you are filed you probably have the legal rights to change the locks on the house and keep him out. You simply cannot allow him to come and go as he please any longer. Please explain the whole sitch to the solicitor and follow their advice to the letter.


The way I am feeling right now, is that there is still a part of me that believes he is going to hit rock bottom and want to change. I can't get my head around filing for divorce. I know I am probably kidding myself, I just need to be sure. Maybe its just because of yesterday, as I was feeling so strong last week. I just need to get my strong head back again. When I am back on course I will come back to this one.

Thanks all for your support, this has helped me so much. My family and friends are there too, but though dont have the experience of these situations that people seem to have here.
Quote
He's escalating...

Textbook.

Harmony, I agree 100% with CP. I think you are taking this WAY too lightly.

CP and I have known women murdered by abusive men. It isn�t a theory -- it�s a real world bloody risk.

You think he won�t do �X�, and he does �X�. You think he won�t do �Y�, and he does �Y�. Every time he goes a little further, it feeds his self- loathing, and he can�t face that so he goes further still to feed that insatiable beast.

Are you really prepared to risk �Z�? �Cuz that is where you are headed.

You are not safe. He is going to hurt you. You are taking that lightly. You truly believe he won�t do �Z�.

I see every indication that he is absolutely going to do �Z�.

Again, the time of gravest risk for abused women is right after they leave their abuser. You just �left� your abuser again on Sunday. He doesn�t even know yet that he�s been left.

You cannot seriously believe he isn�t going to try a repeat.

Get every legal protection you can in place. Don�t be alone, ever, walking to or from your car or anywhere else.

Originally Posted by harmony2010
He is on a path of self destruction and it is not good to watch.

Then stop watching.

CP�s right � your H has to be yanked out of his self indulgent downward spiral.

Plan B is the kindest thing you can do for him � think of it as a manifestation of your love for him if that helps.

Quote
So now I am worried that they are going to catch him drink driving, if he got banned from driving that would be his whole career ruined.

You are worried about the wrong thing.

You should be worried that he is going to kill a family of three and end up in prison.

And stop beating yourself up over what happened. You aren't stupid. You are a fallible human doing the very best you can.

You don't have to decide whether to divorce or not right now. What you need to decide right now is to get all available legal protections in place.
Hi All

A bit numb at the moment. Back home tonight, he has not been in, I have someone coming round in the morning to put a lock on the door from the inside.

I know he won't be back for a few days as he has got his 'fix' and I have in some ways given him the idea that he can walk back into my life at anytime, great frown There won't be a next time.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
He is not facing anything that all of us have to learn to deal with. Its time someone really loved him enough to show him a way out from himself, his habits, even his own interpretation of his life and self images. He can change but he won't respect what is not authority and strong enough to stop him. Love takes many forms for men, in his case it seems he has yet to realize that and is seperated from the truth.


I hear you Constant, I agree with you. I don't know what I am suppose to do, I am afraid of doing something that is going to wind him up. The police know now, I am having the locks changed tomorrow and I am seeing the lawyer aswell tomorrow and will let her know the situation. When he next comes back and tries to get in the house and can't get in, he is going to hit the roof. If he does I will just lokc myself in the bathroom and call the police, by the time he breaks in and tries to get in the house the police will be here. Hopefully it won't come to this. He is so out of control, I don't know what he is going to do.

I feel worn out with all the emotion.



Originally Posted by seekingbalance
Harmony, I agree 100% with CP. I think you are taking this WAY too lightly.


I don't know how to take it really thats the problem. I am shocked out how he is being, and keep thinking he is going to snap out of it and he isn't he is just getting worse. All he keeps going on about is my A and I don't realise how much damage I have done. As soon as I mention about his OW he just is oblivious. There is no reasoning with him drunk or sober.

Originally Posted by seekingbalance
CP’s right – your H has to be yanked out of his self indulgent downward spiral.


How do I do that? I know Plan B is suppose to help, but when?

Originally Posted by seekingbalance
And stop beating yourself up over what happened. You aren't stupid. You are a fallible human doing the very best you can.


I am tryng to do the best I can, but I had a moment of weakness thats all. I think I was just relieved to see him out of his 'Dr Jeckyl' moment. I still really don't understand whats going on. I know he is hurt by the A, but all this? A GF said to me he is just totally in love with you and can;t cope it with it. Hmm whatever. This is why I come here, as many people that surround me just don't know what I am going through and it wouldbe unfair for me to expect them to know what advice to give.

Hmm lessons learnt over last few days:

1. H is not allowed in the house whilst I am here
2. Do not enter into ANY conversations with him whilst in Plan B
3. If for whatever reason I am in his presence, don't get into a conversation with him, walk away.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/25/10 09:53 PM
You could also add the little question, "Are you ready to end your affair(s) and work on our marriage?" If he says anything but, "Yes," you walk away.

You CAN do this.

Plan B DOES help. You just need to stick to it. If you think about the way that you felt after only a few weeks in a Grey Plan B, imagine the feeling of courage and strength that come from a DARK Plan B of a few months. You CAN do this. Stay strong. I sense that there is a little part of you that wants to see WH. I "get" that. I have that little part too. Then I think about how it would throw away all of the work I had put in so far and how disappointed everyone here would be in me. The emotional strain is NOT worth it.
Originally Posted by harmony2010
There is no reasoning with him drunk or sober.

Exactly. Stop trying as in Dark Plan B.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
How do I do that? I know Plan B is suppose to help, but when?

When/if he is ready.

Let me put it to you this way.

A mother is supposed to say �no�. It�s a big part of their job description. Trust me on this.

�No� is always accompanied by a message � what I refer to as sub-text. The sub-text to �no� matters � it matters a lot.

I�m sure your H�s mother said �no� but I suspect her sub-text was incomplete, and I'm being generous with incomplete. This is why I want you to go fill in the data points on your lists. You already knew then what you think you are just now finding out. But that's a subject for another post.

In raising my children, I have kept an eye on the sub-text --- �no� because�. It was and is my view that my job is to raise them to autonomous reasoning human beings, and without the sub-text I am not giving them the tools they need to do that. I am sure many will disagree with me, but I have exhibits �A�, �B� and �C�.

When you Plan B your H, you are saying �no� with a sub-text. The sub-text is �no� because I love you so much I won�t settle for less than your best.

It isn�t a punishment. It�s a gift.

Not doing well still since weekend episode.

Still on a downer. I am missing him. I don't know why. Can't believe I was so weak.

Had a lock fitted from the inside so he can't get in when I'm at home.

Went to see lawyer today, pointless really, I am not ready to file for the D.

Still not really making any plans, feels so final doing that.

Works Christmas party coming up, don't really want to go on my own, so I probably won't go. I am still wearing my wedding ring so people still presume I am married and living with H at work. I really want to keep my private life separate from work as thats the mistake i made last time.

Saturday night friends birthday party, who just got engaged at the weekend. I don't want to to as there will be other married couples there who I haven't seen since the break up, and cant face the inevitable - Sorry to hear about you and H. So will probably not go to that either.

Husbands and I birthday coming up, find that totally depressing, as its only a few days appart. The thought of not seeing him or contacting him on his birthday is horrible.

I am really annoyed as the weekends events have really affected me.
what you need to do is reread the post you wrote, the night he came home drunk, realize what he has done to you, and forget about him. Stop thinking about him, and start focusing on yourself.

You should go to the work party, if someone ask about your husband say "He is out at the moment" then go to the next conversation.

You should go hang out with your friends, if they ask say "he is out at the moment" and go to the next conversation.

Plan B is for you, NOT HIM! Remember that.
Harmony,

Woe is me! Woe is me! Look, it is time you stopped the victim stuff and became a woman. You have a good job. You have friends, you have work friends, and you are doing a woe is me thing on yourself. What the heck are you thinking?

Your H has huge issues and has had them since before you married him. He does NOT define you, He does not need to be present for you to enjoy your life. He is not on this planet to bring you joy. At best you are on this planet to support and love one another. Right now that is NOT the case. He wants to control you and continue his affairs.

Remember we talked about boundaries and plans? Well, consider acting like a victim as a boundary you need to address. Quit the "woe is me" stuff. You chose the man to marry knowing a lot that should have said don't do it. You chose to have an affair that has set him off in a big way. He chose to have affairs and punish you. He has chosen to threaten you and occasionally get violent.

What part of this is an accident??? None of it. You are not a victim.

Start getting your life straight. Start enjoying your friends either married on not. Start living an honest life, you are NOT happily married why pretend you are. Your friends, married or otherwise, know people who have marriage problems you are not the first or even the most important.

Quit with the excuses, the victimhood, and the lying by omission. Go live your life. Start making a new life doing things you enjoy and work on your boundaries, your plans to protect them, and who you are.

God Bless,

JL
OK I am embarassed now, blushing...

Really let him get to me at the weekend, more annoyed at letting him worm his way into my arms and even more annoyed that it has taken nearly 3 days to snap out of it.

I am on a mission now to enjoy my life and he's not going to get in my way. I think the key thing to remember is people go through marriage difficulties all the time and I don't have to pretend otherwise.

I am going to make an effort to get out more and stp staying at home so much to 'feel safer'.

Thanks JL. I need to learn not to let him have this effect on me, Plan B is good.

Harmony,

The secret of a good life is to allow good people to have a positive affect on you, and to leave bad people alone. Who knows what your H really is. It is up him to define himself and it is up to you to decide if he is a "good people" in your life or a "bad people". Doesn't make him good or bad, but people who don't have a positive affect on you should really be avoided if possible.

I would say right now he is a "bad people" because has a very negative affect on you, thus...TA DA Plan B.

I have no doubt that you will forever regret your affair. But, that should lead to you having a better life, a better perspective on life, better coping skills (I won't do that again), and perhaps better insight into people. You cannot achieve these things holed up in your house and avoiding people.

Please do something for me...LIVE!

God Bless,

JL
Hi All

Finally, managed to get it together, really recommend not breaking Plan B, unless under the right terms smile

OK I am moving towards actually having a LIFE.

I have booked my place at the Works Xmas party, alone (billy no mates?)

I have told my GFs that I am GOING to the party on Sat night, its actually just us 4 chicks going out, so looking forward to that.

I have sent a congratulations email to the girl who is getting engaged (must be happy for others)

I have had my STD test results back and they are clear

The lock has now been put on the door, so no drunkard H coming in the house

I have got back to my excercise routine

I have also read the GODDESS thread which is hilarious, and got a few tips... smile

Thanks, as usual, you know what I am going to say, I don't know quite what I would do without this place.

Harmony
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Harmony,

The secret of a good life is to allow good people to have a positive affect on you, and to leave bad people alone. Who knows what your H really is. It is up him to define himself and it is up to you to decide if he is a "good people" in your life or a "bad people". Doesn't make him good or bad, but people who don't have a positive affect on you should really be avoided if possible.

I would say right now he is a "bad people" because has a very negative affect on you, thus...TA DA Plan B.

I have no doubt that you will forever regret your affair. But, that should lead to you having a better life, a better perspective on life, better coping skills (I won't do that again), and perhaps better insight into people. You cannot achieve these things holed up in your house and avoiding people.

Please do something for me...LIVE!

God Bless,

JL


Yes I know this, sometimes though, using Constants words it is not so easy sorting out the wheat from the chaff so to speak. What I mean is picking out the wrong uns. Back to that picker again.

I think I am getting better though, and if I am honest it is going on facts and instincts.

To be honest I am quite lucky there are not many people that have a negative effect on me, only that GF that I mentioned who had the married mans baby. I just keep my distance but still see her occasionally I try not to see her on her own (this is when she is worse) but in a group with others. If I didn't see her then it would make things more difficult for the wider group.

I still have hope at the bottom of my heart that H will snap out of it, grow up and see the errors of his ways. I won't stop it moving forward with my life.

Harmony

Hi Harmony,

I'm glad you got the locks secured, hurray I bet it feels good to be in control of your life again. Well done indeed.

R

Now, just be careful he does not talk you into giving him the NEW KEY!!!!

(this happens with many women in your situation)
Yes it does Niitse, thanks!

Safe and sound and can get on with things x
Hi Harmony,
Sounds like you are off and running with your new life........now the trick is to really enjoy your time, live for today and don't worry about tomorrow or the next day......
I agree with you this place is a God's sent. I know I would not be so strong without all the support you get here, and the 2x4's, they keep you in check because they really care about you .........and me.................isn't it the best........cheers........
jessi
Good Harmony,

So you have an inside lock so he can't get in when your home, but did you change main locks so he won't be there when you get home?

Do you have a GF or brother who can stay with you also?

I guess you are planning on calling the Po-Po if he egts violent or wont go away from the door. Please follow thru with charges and/or restraining order if the cops have to come.


Right now I am concerned for your welfare more thatn your marriage. It might not be pure MB but you can work on your marrige after he has control over himself..

Heck he needs that anyway to even start..

Have a great time at the events!
lol Bubbles - your so right! I will not be giving him the new key. The great thing is, if he turns up whilst I am in, I dont have to deal with it! If he gets angry I can just call the police - love it.

Jessi - yeah this place is brilliant, I have never been this grounded in my entire life, actually making sensible thought through decisions, novelty! It also helps only thinking of today, as if I start to think too much about the future it is a bit scary - you know sorting out everything as a fall out..

Constant - Only changed the locks from the inside, I guess he could get in whilst I am out, but I am afraid that if he can't get in at all, he will make a stand and move back in or something, yikes.

I could get someone to stay with me but really I think I will be ok, as long as H cant get in. I have plans almost every night for the next week, so I am hoping that I won;t be around for him to bother. Thanks for the concern.

I am still having nightmares/bad dreams, but I guess thats part of the fall out, last night I dreamt that a mutual friend started telling me all of these stories of what H had been upto whilst we were living together, just a dream though.

After getting my head back together, I realise what a wreck my H was on Sat, and how is still so foggy, not my problem at the moment.

Good night all.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..
Constant - Only changed the locks from the inside, I guess he could get in whilst I am out, but I am afraid that if he can't get in at all, he will make a stand and move back in or something, yikes.

I could get someone to stay with me but really I think I will be ok, as long as H cant get in. I have plans almost every night for the next week, so I am hoping that I won;t be around for him to bother....


Ok Harmony, so what has sent him a message that he is not welcome or the Police will be called if he comes over?

If you are waiting for something physical to happen, well it allready did right? He struck you after your A, and I am sure his overtures of threatened violence had something to do with why you last let him stay and slept with him.

My crystal ball,(ha-ha, not funny anymore), predicts this escalating to violence every time you stand up to how he treats you, of course unless you cave and let him abuse you. We are all concerned and supportive but practically just words on a forum. It will worry us to no end if you stop posting because you ended up in the hospital so... twoxfour Make it clear you don't want him to step foot in the house, and be absolutly sure he agrees and will not pay you a visit, drunk or not.

Until you are sure of this use any sort of pressure available. restraining order, threats from lawyers, the police, family, until HE caves to YOUR wishes. He has got to respect your wishes in this for your safety and future and if there is any hope, although slim as far as I can see, at a reconciliation or even a safe divorce.


I have helped chase many abusive men out of womens lives by simply going to court with them,(with my wife included) and holding thier hand through the process. I'm talking about men like your H. They either changed then and thanked me/us later or the women let them back and they got abused again. I am talking about violence, not minor disputes. Ex-cons, Skin heads, Backward selfish idiots from who knows where , they are seriuosly in need of discipline, or where I come from its called "a beating", but the law is the only way to handle what they need. If its done with the courts then at least there is a chance of fairness and proper treatment. They need to feel fear of consequences that outwiegh thier own screwwed up judgement. The depth of the person decides whether its the fear of jail time and loss of freedom, or the loss of a realtionship is what motivates them to change. But in the long run they made the bed, now they must lay in it, if they don't experience the consequences they will never change or learn. Yes its his problem, dont let it become yours.

Its amazing how women are attracted to bad dogs and then whine when they are bitten, only to let them back in. Its only at the point of violence that they should realize how they are intimidated but they sometimes are convinced or still beleive its thier fault and continue the relationship, or they start to learn to value themselves and stand up for themselves. They think they are helping them and that they can't help themselves but in reality they are just enabling them. Actions speak louder than words

Hard question...Which one are you gonna be?

The recovery process has only begun for you. The relief you feel and the hope you have experienced is only the beginning of healing. It is clear to me that you still on the fringe of your emotions have been willing to be a victim if the circumstances are right. You are not there yet Harmony, We, and law enforcment, understand that. Thats why we all stand up for you even when you sometimes sabotage yourself. Thats why we get so mad at the ACTIONS of your H and because those actions define who he is in the real world, what we are mad at is yes, him. Untill he is out of your life for enough time for you to really heal there will be no quick fix. Like I said, we all know this, that you are weak right now, many of us have experienced it and only the foolishly proud would pretend they have never been weak.

H doesn't care right now about anything but himself. If he were complient to MB and able to feel remorse maybe you could heal in his presence,but that is just not the case, so you MUST be protected from him by an authority stronger than you are. Do you understand? We are just words on a forum. You need more than a simple lock that only keeps him out when your home and you wishing he wouldn't come over. You need live people and real consequences for his actions to speak for you.

It would be a shame if this escalated and you had even more regret that could last a long, long time, maybe the rest of your life. If you didn't get it yet, his life too.

Time to see the light Harmony, Love is an action verb. If he loved you he would love you and he doesn't. Are you really so convinced you don't deserve better that you cling to a hope in only him? Do you think it is a man? Do you know that Love is worth fighting for? For yourself first ALLWAYS, that doesn't mean selfishness to love yourself with no reguard for others, this is wrapped up in your boudaries. Time for some understanding for yourself and self examination, and time to stop trusting your feelings until they reflect protection for you, and a clear view of reality.

Worried about you and praying
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/29/10 02:48 AM
Hi Newbie,

Am in a bad gunfighter mood now. Unlike your H I would attempt to pysically wreck any guy who approached my W in terms of trying to even look at her seductively or seduce her. That is naive but know what, I would want to have my love knowing that even if the OM was able to gun me down. I do not know why I like and respect you, but I do. Point is sweet Harm I talked to Char tonight abit ago and it was about fears about her health and our future. Basically she has had what had been derterminded as a urinary infection. Well Harm have learnd this afternoon it culd be worse.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 10/29/10 03:45 AM
oop. sorry but I pushed the wrong button before I completed my post to you.

I am affraid tonight as you may be. I am fully aware Sweet Harm that one day - one morning - I may not wake up, At age 68 what would you expect! Not that I dwell on it - I am active and feel or felt vibrant up to today. Char is ill and maybe seriously so as I learned this afternoon. You women have got to realize how you do affect your man. I love Char very much more than any guy could. If she is seriously ill and that will not be known until next week then I don't know jsut that I am angry with God tonight. I fully realize that you cannot go on forever and that there is not reason to be angry with God, but by God Harm I am hurting. You guys are young, and while I agree with you and support you in your Plan B, there is no earthly substiture for what you two may lose. It takes a courageous man to love and provide for someone like you, and especially my Char. Fortunately Char and I have not gotten to this point. Yea, her brief affair with sme POS at the nursing home last fall, but we are well beyond that and it was due te her feeling abondoned. The point is Harm Char and I have now earned our love, life together, and history. We have two great kids. Neither of us pussyfoot around with each other as Just Learnign suggests to you, in terms of psycho babble - she ropes and 'cowgirls' me whenever she wants to n our converatiosns - she is always been direct, honest, and forceful.

Right now I do not now sweeti, its pretty hard.

Tom
I wanted to add a little something on what I beleive is nessesary for change in a person. Its aimed at the general populace and not just for your specific sitch Harmony, but of course it can be applied.

Its been quoted on this site that people wont change until the pain that they are experiencing at the moment is greater than what they would experience if they did.

This leads into many areas, some of them so screwed up in life experiences and wrong thinking at the outset that emotions and fear can fog us up and we can even change for the worse. Undefined guilt or unrealistic expectations can lead us to going the wrong direction and trying to be more than we were designed for, or ever could be.

So pain itself does not allways serve us correctly in our self examination and attempts at improvment. Many times we take on the battles of others when in fact we are making ourselves miserable and robbing them of thier own life lessons. IMO this is not love for them, but a love for ourselves and what we hold important, unless we include the truth and the consequences.

In the case of many people it comes down to thier own self-image and moral compass.

First it is important to have a balanced self-image. One that reflects the attitude that they are free to change because it is the only thing they can do to protect themselves, and that they are worth the effort. They must see themselves as both unique and valuable, with the capacity to screw up big time, and know they will learn for the rest of thier lives how to live better though better choices in thought and action.

The moral compass is the one that also includes the treatment of others. This is taught to us mostly at childhood by the examples of our parents or who we look up to and respect. Parents only can give the lessons they have learned and prepare you with the values they have. Even the best know that each person has to make there own way and that they will have to learn some things they didn't teach them about specifically, They know that they will allways need a teacher for thier conscience ,protection, peace of mind and success in life. Life is a learning experience and we are allways growing. The morals are our boundaries that we fear to break because the consequences will be painful to us. They are rules we live by and question often as they develop. The fence put around us that sometimes we reject and jump over only to find ourselves in deep trouble, and sometimes we find the fence so limiting to what we percieve as freedom we rebel agaist it. Only to find ourselves trapped by our own hand. Life isn't fair, we were only trying to do what we thought was right at the time, and until we realize life was fair, we are to fearful to change.

I am not saying that everything that happens to us is right in its nature or intention, or that the world allways treats us correctly, I am saying this shouldn't be a surprise to us. we were probably warned, and didn't listen, so in that way it is fair.


In the cases of people who are severly damaged by poor treatment and have had their values twisted to the point of selfish behavior that hurts others, all we can do is stand for the truth and protect ourselves from them. Even when they seem to be interested in good wholesome things but want a short-cut instead of working for them.

Many want an inside advantage and they rob themselves from the joy of earning what they possess. Money is a wonderful tool but not valued for what it is by the thief, so they never have enough. Drugs bring a euphoria that is empty in its selfish concept that it is reality. Abuse and use of others is an expression of power and a reaction of fear that we are not really valuable creatures after all, so we attempt to make ourselves important therefore valuable.

So we are taught it is wise to say, "Whats in it for me?". It is the nature of man to do this. Its smart to "go along to get along" as anybody who has driven on a freeway where the speed limit is 55, and everyone is going 70 at rush hour, knows they better stay with the traffic. We have rules that we see broken every day, we are tempted to take short cuts and wonder how some people get away with things as we tow the line. We are selfish by nature, its no surprise that people cheat when they don't see or beleive there are any consequences. People who seem to have no conscience also seem to be the happiest, and those with a conscience seem to suffer and want you to suffer too as they warn you of consequences you just don't see ..yet..

There is a balance between what we have to do to survive and what we know is right. Some things stand out as easy choices but others are blurred by life experiences, wrong teaching, or emotional damage. For some people they never admit they have a problem or even question thier motives for thier actions. They will not dig deeper and thier conscience becomes so calloused that they do not feel others pain. They choose to hide in the darkness of thier own perception as it serves them well. Others do what they have to do to survive while attempting to make thier personal life and the world a better place to live.

Progress within ourselves most times is slow, but it is worth it when we are going in the right direction, and the results might take time to see, but there is no short cut. The realization that we are on the right side of the road can be imediatly enjoyed and cherished because that is all we ever are, on a road with a journey in life worth living and fighting for.


Harmony, the point and part of all this for you is this.. You are very capable of growing and learning and are doing so in you humility in seeking help from others...

I don't know if your H is, I am sure he has the tools, as in a brain, but what about his basic core values? What is the pain of loss he will feel? Will it be purely selfish or will he care about you?

See I don't think a transformation for him will come easily. I don't believe he wont regress once he becomes comfortable again if you reconcile. I think his problems run deep, and you are too sweet and forgiving,(A normal trait BTW, A wife shouldn't have to be her mans coach and parent)...to hold him to what he should be, or that he would dig deep enough to change for his own good.


I know my posts are long, but I could have just said, "dump the bum, you can do better, If he gets it together then he will be lucky if you let him back" and I don't think it would have meant much to you even though its the truth.

What would be the pain he responds to now that you have kicked him out? The pain of losing someone he has hurt and wishes to love like he should have all these years? Or the pain of losing something he has become accustomed to as his right and possession? In what direction will his efforts at recovery be motivated to recover? What is the value he puts on you?

What kind of love do you want from him? Expect the best.
Hiya Constant

Thanks for checking in.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
If you are waiting for something physical to happen, well it allready did right? He struck you after your A, and I am sure his overtures of threatened violence had something to do with why you last let him stay and slept with him.


Yes I think your right, how sad is that, I slept with him because I wanted him to show love towards me and to keep the peace.

Its like I have seen this complete other side to him and it is awful.

I really don't think he is going to do anything else now, maybe that is hope rather than crystal ball..I am sure the next stage of punishment he will try to do is the flaunting of other women ect...I know what your saying though I need to be very careful. I think by changing the locks and the fact that I have informed the police is really to my strength. I can't see any other way he could attack me, I can just walk away from his abuse, and I am not doing anything to wind him up just keeping a low profile.

It was partly my fault on Saturday night, I should have just walked away when he came home that night and gone and stayed at a friends. His truck was blocking my car in when he was trying to intimidate me, so the last thing he is going to do is let me out. I could have left once he calmed down though.

I do take it seriously though, and he can't get in the house when I am there and I am not going to places where he might be.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
The recovery process has only begun for you. The relief you feel and the hope you have experienced is only the beginning of healing. It is clear to me that you still on the fringe of your emotions have been willing to be a victim if the circumstances are right. You are not there yet Harmony, We, and law enforcment, understand that. Thats why we all stand up for you even when you sometimes sabotage yourself. Thats why we get so mad at the ACTIONS of your H and because those actions define who he is in the real world, what we are mad at is yes, him. Untill he is out of your life for enough time for you to really heal there will be no quick fix. Like I said, we all know this, that you are weak right now, many of us have experienced it and only the foolishly proud would pretend they have never been weak.

Yes it is early days in the recovery process and I do get withdrawal symptons but at the moment, they are manageable. I do have that feeling sometimes in the morning and wake up and wonder where he is, how he is ect...

The reason I love Plan B is it allows you to go dark and not know what they are upto.

I am trying not to dwell on it but I think he is living with the girl from the golf club. That sometimes twists me, but I suppose he is just using her. I think she was besotted with my H, and one night when he went missing (on purpose to worry me), she actually text me to ask where he was as she was worried about him. She must be just stupid. What about all those nights when my H had not come home and he was with her? Jeez i think OW are stupid, they seem to forget how long you have actually been with your H. Like I said, I am not going to get hung up about that. Incidently when my H went 'missing'it was the night before I started my new job, I was going out of my mind with worry. When he came home he said that he was pleased that I was worried about him, when I told him the OW had text me and was worried about him too, he laughed.

I just think he is really angry at my affair and thats what all this is about. Also, he said its not just about the A, its how things were before. He said that I aways said to him that something just does not feel right, which I did. My fault is that I didn't know then what was not right but looking back it was lack of intimacy, ability to discuss 'issues', lack of time spent together and lack of empathy/understanding. Therefore, I think he is looking for someone who will just accept him the way he is and not challenge him and just spend 100% their time doing things for him. Sometimes I thought he liked the fact that I challenged him, wanted him to be a better person ect..

On top of all of this, after he has treated me so bad, 4 affairs (that I know of), hit me, called me names and enjoyed seeing me suffer, I can't really get my head round the fact that there is still some hope left on me.

If it was a friend, by now I would have told her to ditch the bum and never look back. I want to get into this place where I am so strong and clear. I suppose I am quite a forgiving person and do not think in black and white terms, and think everyone makes mistakes. I look at his A and I don't think for a minute he wanted to be in that position, he would rather have been with me moving on in our married life and happy in our home.

I just think HIM and his background has led to this reaction, I know I didn't deserve a second chance, and now I don;t know if I want one. He probably knows deep down he could never give me what I need, so maybe is using a self destructive way to end the marriage.

All I know is that, how could I still love and care about someone who has treated me so poorly? I want to get him out of my system and fast.

Hi Tom

Good to hear from you.

I am really sorry that you are in pain and your wife is potentially seriously ill. I really do feel for you. To have such a long happy marriage with someone and see them like this, must be awful.

Originally Posted by Tom2010
I am affraid tonight as you may be. I am fully aware Sweet Harm that one day - one morning - I may not wake up, At age 68 what would you expect! Not that I dwell on it - I am active and feel or felt vibrant up to today.


I can't believe you would think like that! Obviously I am 34 and do not know but by the sounds of it, its not something you should worry about now....:)

Your wife is very lucky to have you care and support her. I suppose thats all I really want.

Its not that easy to find these days and I think you made the comment on my old thread about younger guys today. There are not many around, but maybe I am just a bit tarnished at the moment

Believe me Tom, I have been direct with my H many times, but sometimes I just think, do I really want to fight for a man who wants to be able to walk into another womans arms when he likes? What is there worth fighting for?

Sometimes I look at the MB concepts of these people that sit and wait for a long time in Plan B, and sometimes I just think god if I am with someone and they really want to be with someone else, let them get on with it. I suppose thats the way I have been brought up. I can see some sense in a long Plan B if you have a family and a history of a long marriage. I do admire those who can do that. I know for my H it is a case of whatever OW comes along, rather than falling hard and fast for someone specific. I don;t know how I would feel about that.

Things are hard, and letting go of someone I love, is really hard. I could have him in the house with me, but at what cost? Contacting other women? Punishing me? Ignoring my calls? Booking holidays alone? No thanks.

Anyway, thinking of you Tom and I hope the news is better than your expecting next week in regards to your wife.

All the best.

Harmony.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..I just think he is really angry at my affair and thats what all this is about. Also, he said its not just about the A, its how things were before. ...

First of all, I am not convinced he was a totally devoted Hubby and did not entertain or even have an A on you before your A.. At least in his mind he felt he had a right to.


Which leads into the next thing, what in the world for? What was he not happy with you about? Really, wake up. he has allways thought he was doing you a favor, that he was Gods gift and except for a few problems in his life....boo-hooo.. he would be perfect.

And you were a problem, and are still to him, but he owns you.

Please can I get an Amen on this from someone? Harmony needs to know how deep the problem goes, before she gets taken in again by this guy. Sorry Harmony, IMO your H has a major problem and has sold it to you that its your fault. You did him a favor when you had the A in his mind cuz now the deal is sealed, he can abuse you at will, youv'e proven all the problems came from you, he is absovled..

The fox has scared the chicken from the coop, then convinced it that it was so stupid to leave it. just give up, its all your fault, I am just doing what I allways have and its my nature, The fox is a crafty predator, and you are a flightless bird.

This has been brewing a long time Harmony, I am not advocating your affair, but it was better than stabbing the idiot, which , BTW, he would have turned around to benifet him also. He is a wolf in sheeps clothing, interested in himself but playing the good guy when it benifets him. Can you find any time in your marriage he did something for you that he didn't want credit for? Something sweet behind your back that might have cost him some of his image?

Brewing for a long time, it was and is his responsiblity to care for you above anyone else, you are not supposed to teach it, and he doesn't want to learn it. You have been worn down by this behavior until you reacted out of frustrtion and emotion, stupid and nasty self-destructive crap those affairs. You knew that almost imediatly, he still feels justified. He wont even take advice from professinals, what is he special? He wishes he were, and as long as there are doe-eyed gals he can sell himself to, those that want to believe he is what he says he is, he will probably stay that way. I don't see him coming to a point of change for himself for quite a while. Lets face it, some never do.

I am just frustrated that you don't see who he is yet. I think it is nessesary for a full recovery. I know if he ia capable of love the capacity is not in him yet, and maybe it never was, it was just an idea he sold and went along with for how do we say it "The dumb broads" or "The suckers". He is not gonna change unless the light gets shoved up his butt, and it will have to be painful in places he doesn't even know yet. Maybe plan B will wake him up, but to me it is more important that you wake up and start loving and respecting yourself. He is not even in the game yet.

Again of course he can change, of course you are worth it to recover your marrige, of course you are still giving him credit as he draws from the love bank. Don't let it drain you dry and become emotionally bankrupt. Know what has happened to you, protect yourself from furthur damage as the damage you are carrying around is revealed to you in time, counsel, therapy, him not being around. When you see the whole picture, you might be so repuled and afraid of being around him you might choose not to reconcile, but at least then you will have a chance of recovery and a good marriage with someone that loves you, if he ever thinks its in his best interest.

Your worth it, don't let the buggers get you down.


Hope you have a safe and positive weekend Harmony

You got one "Amen".

Harmony, you just think this is miserable. Take your H back before he has done the work, and let me tell you honey, you will look back on these as really, really good days.

And do try to post once a day over the weekend for the worrying hand-wringing types amongst us.
Originally Posted by seekingbalance
..And do try to post once a day over the weekend for the worrying hand-wringing types amongst us.

Brb Gotta go get some hand lotion...
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
... I know I didn't deserve a second chance, ...

I don't see it that way, so please don't say that. I don't think you got a fighting first chance..
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
.. I look at his A and I don't think for a minute he wanted to be in that position, he would rather have been with me moving on in our married life and happy in our home. ..
Im not convinced of that either. I think it would be the IB and disrespect of you and your needs if anything that would have been continued and if you did not comply, he would have a fit. Sorry.
He needs a real man to answer to for awhile. Your Dad busy? Ha ha sorry.

How about a good counselor to make him fess up and tow the line, one that could call him on any Bull.... I know I heard of this guy, Dr. Harley.

I got another novel idea, how about you tell H that he needs to talk and work with the Dr. before you even consider reconsiliation, and refuse to communicate with him until it is proven he has. Also verified by Dr, Harley.


Theres a novel idea...wish someone had thought of it before.

Ok Im done good nite Harmony, you are in good hands here.
Originally Posted by constant_process
I got another novel idea, how about you tell H that he needs to talk and work with the DrH

Three session minimum one on one with Steve. Steve's very, very good, but this H needs an intensive course.
Hi Guys

Just checking in all quiet on the western front. So much better having the lock on the door.

I spoke to Mum yesterday and she said I sounded a bit flat, I said I am ok, just getting on with things. She asked if I had heard anything from H, and I said not a peep, then she said oh thats a good thing. Then my mum went onto say Harmony, he has probably got someone else to keep him occupied for awhile and as soon as that doesn't give him what he needs he will be back. That hurt but probably the truth.

Again, had another vivid dream last night. That H came and took the rest of his stuff from the house and more, and he had rented some posh apartment. I found an email from some OW to him about how much she loved him. I went to see him and I could see him unpacking his stuff in his new flat and saw me! Horrible. I wish these dreams would stop! It takes me a few hours in the morning to recover.

I think some of this dreams shows how paranoid I am about how things were before the A, and how he said I never loved him enough and was always unsure. Maybe thats why in the dream I felt so awful when I saw the OW email to him, giving to him what I never gave enough of.

Thanks for your post Constant. It was really good. There were many things that rang true.

If I look back to pre A, I always felt never quite good enough, in the sense that he made me feel that I didn't love him enough or dote enough. I was also unsure about him. I remember enjoying his company but then he would do or say something that would create this question mark. I think it stemmed from the fact that he always pushed for the commitment. I remember after dating for a short period I was going to buy a house on my own. I had just come out of a long relationship and wanted to take things slow. Anyway H spoke to his mother (??!) and she thought it was weird and he agreed with her, and he gave me an ultimatum, buy it together or its over. So we bought it together.

The whole thing gives me the shudders. Ofcourse that was held against me for a long time.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Which leads into the next thing, what in the world for? What was he not happy with you about? Really, wake up. he has allways thought he was doing you a favor, that he was Gods gift and except for a few problems in his life....boo-hooo.. he would be perfect.


It is weird but I do believe he has some issues that run deep, here are some of the things over the years:

* He was always ill, either self inflicted or injury ect..He would milk it to the max. My friends use to joke whats up with him this time, have you got to put your Florence out fit back on? That was so tedious.
* The uncontrollable rages, they started really early on. We must have been dating for a few weeks and he called me by his ex GF names but really shouted it in a angry way. I remember him raging at his Dad, who is in his 70s and I thought thats a bit weird. His Dad never stood upto him. When I first moved into his place he had this big tantrum that I wasm messing up his house.
* The different faces for different people, always putting this image to others that he ran round after me, behind the scenes could not be further from the truth.
* The way he spoke about women, he always called them vile or other horrible names. There were not many women he liked including a few of my friends.
* How he disregarded my feelings or in the end I gave him communicating how I felt as there would be a big reaction.
* Sex life - there was no connection more like sex than making love. I don't think he considered me much...

Even if I look back to how he reacted when he found out about the A, the following weekend he took a girl away for a long weekend to some romantic B&B.

I have to say though that H found all my emails between me and OM. Which must have been horrendous. I was in a bad place and a lot of the emails at the start were how I felt about OM and were flirty and sexual, then later on they were about how upset I was about my H constant rejection, IB and suspected OW. I convinced myself OM was emotional support, wrong I know.

Yes he does believe he is god gifts, only last weekened when we were in bed together i said to him why have you come here you have others you can go to? He said I know Ihave lots of women, but you are so irresistable, puke........................

WAKE UP HARMONY

I know it, I can see it, so why do I get these pangs...

There were so many red flags early on. I should have had better boundaries in place from the beginning.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..There were so many red flags early on. I should have had better boundaries in place from the beginning.

Don,t beat yourself up to much. I am glad you can see things clearer now. Now you can also see that it might take some time seperate from him to get yourself healthy and seeing beyond. Triggers and habits and all.

You were just responding the way most women do when men threaten either outwardly or suggestively, you try to fix it by making up the difference, compensating, going the extra mile, being understanding. That kind of emotional abuse goes for men too.

"He said I know Ihave lots of women, but you are so irresistable..." OMG, he doesn't get it in the least does he? This is about marriage, not a female playground. I don't think he would know a gift if he had it.

Ok so have a good weekend and do something with your friends. Remember it is OK and time will be your friend as you seperate yourself from the drama.

Like JL said, he had to kiss a few frogs before he found his wife, you will put this behind as lessons learned someday.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..
WAKE UP HARMONY

I know it, I can see it, so why do I get these pangs......

Its what your used to, and its amazing what we can get used to...
Hi All

Had a lovely time up in London last night at a friends birthday party. It was great to see the girls. A couple of them knew I was separated but some of the others didnt know. They asked what was going on and I just said that H and I were separated. They asked lots of questions like where has he gone, where is he staying. I just said I didnt know and then I changed the subject.

One of the girls had got engaged, and I was really happy for her. They were all getting excited about the wedding and the whole proposal thing. I was excited for her, but for me I just thought I get so much more excited about a couple who have been together a long time and support each other through thick and thin. So much emphasis now is put on the 'big day', sometimes I feel is just becomes a big show for everyone.

It was good to get out and JL is right that I need to get out there and live and I feel so much better about things.

I was driving home this morning from London, and drove past my H sat in his truck. He looked really miserable and not great at all. He didn't see me thank goodness. I felt weird after seeing him, and again some reassurance that he is ok.

He came back to the house this morning whilst I was out, I expect he wasn't too happy that I wasn't home and had been out the night. Oh well.

Still no contact from him, good he knows I am serious.



Harmony,
Isn't it great to just get out again and feel alive even it's just for a night, to even think of something else for a change......
You are doing great and moving on with your life, baby steps.......have some fun if you can......while doing this......
Don't worry about what is happening to him Harmony, remember this is the way he CHOSE it to be........we can't try to make sense of someone else's decisions.....
He has to do his self reflection and hopefully he will come out a better man for it. Until that happens for him nothing will change.....
Work on yourself and being the best you............
you will come out a happier woman ready to move onto the rest of her life in a positive fulfilling way............
Hi All

Had a good weekend, a bit low again today coming back to the house yesterday.

I think its more about the realisation that I am going to be 35 in a few weeks time.

I am not really sure what choice I have appart from ending this marriage. How much more time can I waste by sitting here waiting for him to return remorseful, commited to MB program and willing to change certain behaviours?

I know I have deeply hurt him and made some hideous mistakes. I also know how much I have learnt about what makes a good relationship and what I need from a partner. I just think I am asking someone who does not want to change or learn to do so.

I don't feel any anger towards him, I went through that last week, I just feel I want us both to be happy, appart or together.

For the first time, I also feel worried that he will stop fence sitting once I am out the door, and by then it will be too late my heart would have closed. That he will never be capable of giving me what I need.

I suppose I am a bit daunted by it all, and I know it will fall in my lap to sort it all out. Daunted by the divorce, agreement of splitting the financial assets and cutting him out of my life forever. I am really really scared of divorce!

I want to have a satisfying commited loving relationship, and I want to have a family, and I can't do all that married to someone who is living with someone else.

I would appreciate peoples thoughts.

Thank you

Harmony
Harmony, you don't have to decide to or not to get divorced right now. Now is the time to work on you, without peering into the darkness of the past or trying to glimpse what terrors the future might hold.

Now is the time to weave your strengths into a coherent life, weaving your strengths most tightly in those areas where they can guard against your weaknesses. Stop defining yourself as what you were and start defining yourself as what you are today.

What are your hopes and dreams? What are you really good at? What are you really bad at? I know you said you want a family -- is there a way you could ease that yearning by working with or for children? What other yearnings do you have? What activities make you "lose time" where you look up and think "wow, I can't believe it's been three hours." Those are your passions.

Living your passions will lift you out of your pain and fear.

Get out the yellow pad...and start living it.
Hello Harmony,

here are my thoughts. I truly understand your impatience that you sort of 'have to' end your M now. You see your 35th birthday coming, you want to have a child and deep down you also _know_ that your H is not a husband or a father material, at least you think that this knowledge is going to prove itself now and later over and over again, and for your goal to be a mom, you think that there is not much time left to stall the decision. I don't know if this will be some encouragement or not, but people can have children in their forties, too.

People stop fence sitting in the moment the whole situation will grow painful enough for them. Your everyday life proves that your H's life is not painful enough for him just yet, and you don't actually know whether it will be at all. You are afraid that it won't.

JL said - I think it was him - that for a future relationships to succeed you need to be alone for a while. I think you know that, too, and I think you think that this Plan B of yours is what you think is your time alone. You seem to be in a hurry and we all understand your reason. But I also think that deep down you have already made your decision, you just don't have it in you to put it on the paper yet. I think you're afraid just because that you have to make the decision alone.

You need to make the decision not for your H, but for you. He is not in the same boat with you. Set a date for your decision, for example you will wait until the new year. During the time left make the perfect plan B, try to put on the paper how your future will look like without him, and what will you do for yourself to become the whole person again.

Do you have a chance to talk to some of your good friends or parents about this decision of yours (whatever and whenever it will be)?



Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hi All

Had a good weekend, a bit low again today coming back to the house yesterday.

Yay you ahd a good time and the house is bound to be a trigger emotionally..

I think its more about the realisation that I am going to be 35 in a few weeks time.

This has been a concern you have had for a long time. One that you H has not shared with you or seemed to have anything to say or planned to help you with your dreams of a family either. I think that if it was part of why you married, and one of the most heartfelt and deepest dreams you held, he would have at least shown you his concern also, and did more about it. You know tests, planned times during ovulation, counselling, and shown you he cared.

I am not really sure what choice I have appart from ending this marriage. How much more time can I waste by sitting here waiting for him to return remorseful, commited to MB program and willing to change certain behaviours?

That is totally your choice Harmony. The advice is for you to live your life to its fullest, and aimed at helping you clarify what that means to you while helping you to see that you have let yourself become a victim by not keeping your own boundaries.

The boundaries go both ways. What you expect from others and what you will take as treatment from them. Searching yourself will help you understand why in time, but what is more important right now is that you treat yourself as your star player. Only you can make the decisions that change you and your circumstances, and being abused just should never be accepted ever, being ignored either.


I know I have deeply hurt him and made some hideous mistakes. I also know how much I have learnt about what makes a good relationship and what I need from a partner. I just think I am asking someone who does not want to change or learn to do so.

OK, from what I see you have been slack in demanding a good marriage, and whenever you meekly have brought up any issues that were important to you, you were called a [censored]. Then after a long history of this you had an A, which you almost instantly deeply regretted and came here to recieve 2x4s and everyone telling you how deeply you hurt him, but you stayed anyways, humbly willing to learn and wait.

As you revealed who he was, and how he has behaved in the past, most of us realized how you were gaslighted by him and made to believe just about everything was your fault, and because you are a nurturer by nature, you were willing to take on everything and the blame. Lets realize that and stop it. Because its not all your fault, a marrige takes two people equally commited to honesty and hard work towards responsible maturity and growth. Yes you are willing and allways have been. He reaped what he sowed. He is not willing to learn anything from anybody. He wants to remain a child and act like his Mother while accusing you of what he himself does. He also is probably dealing with issues that have affected him in his life. Possibly he sees his fathers lack of standing up for himself as a problem and is continuing to get away with the same crap Mom did towards Dad.

All that doesn't matter. all the pyscho babble and reasons can sound like justification and excuses for his behavior. Let him work it out with a therapist or probation officer if thats the kind of life he wants. You deserve better and are willing to work for it. He isn't and maybe never will be,(There, I said it)


I don't feel any anger towards him, I went through that last week, I just feel I want us both to be happy, appart or together.

The rollercoaster has leveled out some. Good. Its a time to work on living well and being happy with whatever descisions you have to make. Your a women with emotional needs that need to be respected and learning what that means as you sort them out. You now have the opportunity to do that without drama or minimizing the importance of them to keep the peace. You cant be happy without peace of mind, all you will be doing is riding a rollercoaster of high expectations then great dissapointment if you can't feel peace and control. I think you have learned, and/or are learning those lessons and how they apply to you and your life.

It will be a good thing when the passion of hate and desparate love towards him gets replaced with acceptance that who he is is his choice too, and he is choosing what he wants. Its not your fault.


For the first time, I also feel worried that he will stop fence sitting once I am out the door, and by then it will be too late my heart would have closed. That he will never be capable of giving me what I need.

You have said that was your fear from the beginning. People have told you it was up to you to tell him, and it appears you have tried. We were not sure at first because we did not know how he had manipulated you through anger and childish IB and called you a nag, or how he had gaslighted you into believing he never did anything wrong, and you were at fault.

Well his fantasy had to end didn't it? He could not push your heart issues away forever, and you got help and support for yourself from this forum. Support he should have been for you. It seems that if he was at least as concerned for the truth and fair treatment of you as us strangers you would not ever had to find this place. I dare say if he was even half as concerned you would have dealt with it and kept trodding forward. Maybe your instints were right about that fear. What you need is good support. Thats what we all need, especially from our spouses, even more so.


His tactics are threats of violence and deciet. I am afraid too that he will only be responding to his loss of useing those against you once you go for good, not his loss of being able to love you or learning how. The bar is set high and it should be for you and for him, but not because you nessesarliy should be together, thats up to him to prove and earn, or to lose and learn.


I suppose I am a bit daunted by it all, and I know it will fall in my lap to sort it all out. Daunted by the divorce, agreement of splitting the financial assets and cutting him out of my life forever. I am really really scared of divorce!

I strongly suggest you read about what you will need to protect yourself before you go to D on this site. I also think you should seek a bulldog lawyer or barrister? do you call them over there. A Private investigater might be a good idea also.

Emotionally being scared of divorce is healthy I think, but there is the reality of certain types of emotional abuse that you must face and realize that you should be more scared of. What is a marrige supposed to be Harmony? Is it something that should produce a relationship that is destructive to either party? Of course not, and when it does it is time to change the relationship, counselling, plans A & B, responsible work and effort and sacrifice by both parties or end the marriage. Thats what this site is about, positive change to build marriages. Not marriage at any cost.


I want to have a satisfying commited loving relationship, and I want to have a family, and I can't do all that married to someone who is living with someone else.

Well DuH!! sigh

I would appreciate peoples thoughts.

Your doing well, peace to you and be safe girly. Thanks for posting and having a good time this weekend. TRy not to worry about him to much. Hes in Gods capable hands.

Thank you

Harmony
Harmony,
It's okay to feel scared, this is a new way of thinking for you and it is scary to make decisions just for you........but in a little while you will think about how great those decision are going to be for you, you will find peace and a new zest for life that you probably haven't felt for a long time......
I think you start by looking at everyone and everything differently, really look, see the good in everything and everyone......
You have been stuck so long you probably don't even realize how many great people are out there......enjoy your new life, one day at a time.....for what it is ........
I started doing something nice for someone every day, random things, I received great pleasure in seeing a smile on someone's face.....simple things, helping someone with a bag of groceries.....buying a coffee.......providing a ride......opening a door........I tried to think of someone else for a moment or two every day.......it has helped me .................volunteer, give back......
Hiya Niitse

Thanks for your response, ya know it makes a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by Niitse
JL said - I think it was him - that for a future relationships to succeed you need to be alone for a while. I think you know that, too, and I think you think that this Plan B of yours is what you think is your time alone. You seem to be in a hurry and we all understand your reason. But I also think that deep down you have already made your decision, you just don't have it in you to put it on the paper yet. I think you're afraid just because that you have to make the decision alone.

Do you have a chance to talk to some of your good friends or parents about this decision of yours (whatever and whenever it will be)?


Your right deep down I know what the right thing is to do, I am just not ready to do it yet as the bed does not feel cold, he has only been gone 3 weeks. I also have to be sure, that he is not willing to change.

I will tell you the basis for my decision on divorce. My H does not like to look in the mirror and accept his faults at the best of times, and really does not feel he needs to change. So on that basis if he does come back and want me, I have tosee some change as in the past things that have actually happened include:

1. Physical violence
2. Emotional abuse - name calling, push pulling, punishment, intimidation,
3. Mother issues - dependancy, adopting her behav, not emotionally detached
4. Serial affairs - 4 thats I know of
5. Alchohol issues
6. Independant Behaviour - golf, work ect..

Need I go on? I can't sweep these things under the carpet, I have to accept this is part of who he is. Please anyone who thinks I could be wrong let me know. I just think its too big a mess.

I have spoken to my friends and family and they are all desparate for me to file for the divorce and move on. I think they just want to see me out of this situation and they know I want to have children.

I don't have it in me right now, probably because he has only just gone but another month of no contact and I will be there.

I am going to stick to Plan B until Jan 1st.

Thanks again Niitse.
Thanks so much everyone for your words of support and encouragement.

Had some sad news today, I spoke to my Dad this morning and they are stopping his cancer treatment now as if he gets another virus/infection it could prove fatal. It is not terminal cancer, but it is still not good news. I would like him to be well enough to go out play his golf ect..but he is pretty much at home most of the time. Ofcourse when you hear things like that you realise time is precious.

I have had a think about it, and I know in my heart the right thing to do is divorce my H. I don't have to do it right now but this has gone on for so long I want to put it behind me. I am going to stay in Plan B until Jan 1st. That will be 3 months after he left the marital home.

I don't feel any desire to contact him. I almost feel feel frightened of seeing him, not because he may hit me, but because I dont want him to mess up my progress.

This is not because I am in a rush to meet another man BTW, so at some point I can have a family, its because there is no point remaining in this farce of a marriage. I just think divorce will give me some closure.

Even if H does come back, there is so much to get past, the multiple affairs, the abuse ect..Its just all too much.

Jessi -

Some days I do feel a glimpse of what life could be like and it excites the hell out of me, and your right by doing more for others takes the focus away. Ihave been doing that lately and even find that I have stopped wanting to talk to people about it. Thanks so much for continuing to post, I think you were one of the first back in July!

Seeking

Still working on that yellow pad list, have some great things planned, going to this beautiful spa with a friend, booked a skiing trip with friends for Jan, Works Xmas party, could do with some more though. Might even get a trip to meet a friend who lives in Canada. I am bit concerned about Xmas at the moment. Your right I don;t need to rush the D, I need to giv myself some breathing space.

Constant

Yeah your right about the fertility treatment, he did tell me that it was worth going to the docs and thats when they found the cyst but appart from that I remember him getting annoyed with me when I started to talk about timings and stuff. He said we are not making a bit of plasticine you know. I just suppose how long do I give Plan B, before I file for D? I have decided Jan 1st, thats only 8 weeks away.

The other thing is, I also feel that being in 'Plan B' is not really allowing me to move on. Because all the time you are in Plan B there is a possibility your H may come back seeking reconciliation and I sometimes that prolongs the pain, because if he never does then your not really going through the 'acceptance' stage of a relationship ending.

Harmony.
Harmony,

You determine the time you are in plan B. 1st of Jan. is fine, but if you have decided to do it, then why wait? The decision won't actually be easier, although the more you two are separated the easier it will be to walk away. (A good reason why separations rarely bring marriages back together.)

You have more options that you realize, so sit back and learn from life.

I am sorry to hear about your Dad. I hope that he will actually feel better without the treatments.

God Bless,

JL
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Harmony,

You determine the time you are in plan B. 1st of Jan. is fine, but if you have decided to do it, then why wait? The decision won't actually be easier, although the more you two are separated the easier it will be to walk away. (A good reason why separations rarely bring marriages back together.)

You have more options that you realize, so sit back and learn from life.

I am sorry to hear about your Dad. I hope that he will actually feel better without the treatments.

God Bless,

JL

Ditto.
Hi All

Still doing really well, I have this place to thank for that. Got loads of nice things planned, and booked a great ski trip in the New Year with friends.

He has been gone nearly a month now and feel really peace in my life. Enjoying spending time on my own and meeting up with friends.

Still upset at how he treated me at times, and the other side I have seen which I really dont understand at all.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
You determine the time you are in plan B. 1st of Jan. is fine, but if you have decided to do it, then why wait? The decision won't actually be easier, although the more you two are separated the easier it will be to walk away.


I dont really know what I am waiting for. One of the things would be for him 'to see the light' and realise how much he misses me and how much I actually gave to him. Deep down I do still care for him, i am not sure I can even use the word love anymore. I just wanted it to work so much, but it all just seemed so out of my hands.

I spoke to the estate agent today to get our house sale price reduced. They said that my H was in the office yesterday as he had lost his key to our house! How typical of him, to lose his key. Anyway, the estate agent said he spoke to my H about reducing the house price and my H said he would speak to me.
I didn't like the way I felt when I thought my H had gone into the estate agent to pressure the sale of the house. My heart dropped, why did I feel like that? After all thats all I was phoning upto do?

Harmony.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
...I didn't like the way I felt when I thought my H had gone into the estate agent to pressure the sale of the house. My heart dropped, why did I feel like that? After all thats all I was phoning upto do?

Harmony.

Glad your feeling better,

You will be allright in time. Give yourself time.

As far as what he is up to?. I want you to be ready for anything so you can be safe and not get scared again. Why did he not barge in lately to your house when you were not home? Maybe he lost the key and does not even know you have a nighttime lock.

Again be careful and God bless Harmony
Ahhhh

not sure what's going on but feeling massively angry at the moment. Likely timed with my monthly cycle, but just feel a lot of anger.

Angry that;

I have to sell my home
At the ways things have turned out
That my H has repeatedly cheated and rejected me
That my H has put no effort into sorting out the marriage
That my H could not care less about me
That right now if memory serves me, he is in playboys paradise on another golf weekend with the boys
That he had the cheek to come round, act possessive about me when he is living with OW (don't know for sure)
that staying in touch with the OW was more important than cutting off contact to save the M
That he has not paid back the money I lent him

Is this normal? How do I get rid of this angry? I honestly can't bare the sight of him, I might kill him if I see him.

Sorry need to vent big time.
Hi Harmony,

You may be going through the process of grieving your M. Anger is the second stage of all 5. Denial and isolation, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I think that this is quite normal and you should view this as a process, not some sort of abnormality.

Just take good care of yourself, hold your family close and be aware that your husband is still element X in this equation, so be careful - I agree with Constant.

Have a nice weekend!
Good call Niitse,

I read that grieving has all those stages Niitse mentioned, but not in any specific order either. Nor is there a timeframe you can assign to each person for any stage.

I know Harmony, it stinks, but you will eventually move through all the stages of this loss.

I also heard someone say that everyone grieves differently and it is a very personal proscess that can't be rushed to the point of emotional acceptance. That makes sense doesn't it? Otherwise we would be filling the void and could lead to rebound decisions in relationship(s).

Coming here to vent is fine, your anger is justified and he has given you no other choice anyways. This is a support site for just such things.

Even if he came home hat in hand the anger would still be there and needs to be addressed. Just don't beat yourself up and seek the peace you can find thru knowing you are living away from the drama.

Do you have a personal IC that can help you also with objective thinking and moving on with what you want in your life?

Also, do you have to sell the house?, or do you just want to get away from it anyway?

What are the details of the divorce and the protection your Lawyer has planned for you?
Hi Harmony,
I think it's good to come here and lay out all your frustrations, I think we all feel that anger from time to time......
It is like going through a death, going through the stages is a very normal thing.....
It's okay to be mad about the life changes you are going through.
I think when someone else's makes decisions that we feel we have no control over it's a tough thing to swallow.......I feel like that a bit myself.......I feel like I just didn't have the control over my own life like I wanted and just had to accept someone else's decision, that pisses me off.......
But it isn't all out of my control or yours, you still have a choice in what happens from here....
It's time for you to take that control back for yourself......You need to get behind the wheel again........
Your logic side needs to kick into gear now, accept life for what it is and start controlling the parts you can.......
Your husband has controlled things long enough, it's your turn now........you know what's best for you...............
Make sure everything is in place for you, agreement, financial and your support system is in place.........
Slowly you will feel better and life will feel worth living again.......
((hugs)) sorry you are feeling out of sorts today.......
I Agree with what Jessie said too.
Hi Guys

You words are very comforting, I am trying to take back the control for my life.

It is very tough, I am going through such a range of emotions, but it is not anywhere as tough as I thought it was going to be. I mean by this that I am functioning and getting on with things.

I do feel like a shadow of my former self. I do feel like I have been through 10 rounds with Mike Tyson and all my energy and life has been zapped out of me.

Sometimes I go through stages of missing him, which is bittersweet after how he treated me.

I did think about talking to IC, but I honestly know that the only therapy I need is time.

I feel quite distraught I did not walk away much sooner, and I suspect this is because I sensed that he had such an internal struggle between the person he wanted to be, and the person he had been bought upto be.

I do feel quite traumatised at how he has treated me.

OK bounce back again Harmony!
The main thing is, I know at some point in the future that I am going to be so much happier! I am trying to get there but it feels hard.

It is good to know that you don't actually need a man in your life, it is very empowering.

I just feel at the moment, that I am recovering from a major trauma or something!!

My suggestion at IC was so you could maybe take a look at your picker, and find out what your taste in men comes from.

I know you have learned a lesson Harmony, it is the triggers that might get you in trouble again, thats all.

Have a great weekend
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
The main thing is, I know at some point in the future that I am going to be so much happier! I am trying to get there but it feels hard.

It is good to know that you don't actually need a man in your life, it is very empowering.

I just feel at the moment, that I am recovering from a major trauma or something!!

You are, and you will too. Like you said , time is part of it.
Hello All

Still in Plan B and DARK.

It all feels very empowering, I don't feel the need to contact him at all.

Had a low moment this morning when I woke up alone in my house on a Sunday morning. I have a lovely 4 bed house and it was just me in it, it was so quiet. I thought this house should be full of life with a family in it, with the rooms filled and sometimes that gets me, when I feel like that I just get myself out in the fresh air for a run and usually feel better.

One day it has to happen, I don;t want to feel like I am always waiting for that.

I had a lovely day out with my mum and sister on Friday, they have been great, we had such fun. One thing that is good, is that I have not felt the need to talk about H or contact him.

I saw my Dad this afternoon, he looks very poorly, I know he is really worried about me and I keep trying to reassure him I am ok and not to worry. He just said, your not ok and I do worry! I don't really know what to say to that.

Its weird, because of the situation people expect you to be in a bad place, but don't know that actually you feel loads better that you are out of a negative situation.

I have made one decision though, I only want to surround myself with people who have a positive influence on me from now one!

There is still some confusion. I still somewhere maybe stupidly, hope that my H truly loves me, and is in pain during this Plan B and will realise the error of his ways. This is the only thing stopping me from filing from D. I have noticed that when I am low I have a tendency to romanticise the relationship, but this site has helped me keep my feet on the ground and then I remember the way he has actually treated me, and how this is abusive. I wish I could put this behind me and file for D, I really know its a lost cause. Using my boundaries, what I have learnt from this site, I would file for D and never look back, so why can't I bring myself to do this?

Can someone help explain this?

Harmony.


Listen�. listen to yourself. You aren�t ready. That�s OK. You are exploring your new reality. That�s OK too. More than OK � it�s exactly what you need to be doing.

Where are you? You are in the middle. It is an uncertain place. Accept it is uncertain. Stop fighting it and accept it.

Be still in yourself. Stop trying to move from this to that. You have been frantic since you showed up here. What should I do next? Why isn�t this working? What now?

Listen to yourself Harmony. Your voice is the only one that matters right now. Stop telling it to be quiet. The voice will ground you in your power if you listen to it.

Be still in yourself and accept where you are. Every moment is just a moment. It isn�t a life sentence. It will pass. The pain and grief and remorse and shame and regret and paralyzing fear are just moments. Steep in them, listen to them, and stop fighting them

Stop, and be still. Decide not to be frantic. It can be done.

I am going to make a guess here and remind you: contacting OM right now is a really, really bad idea. It is one of the most self destructive decisions you could make.
Seeking is right Harmony.

Good advice.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..I saw my Dad this afternoon, he looks very poorly, I know he is really worried about me and I keep trying to reassure him I am ok and not to worry. He just said, your not ok and I do worry! I don't really know what to say to that...

Is your Dad well enough to discuss how much better you are doing? Like most dads he probably will allways worry about his children, and he never will feel his job is totally done raising and teaching him. If he is really sick, its important that he know you are doing better on whatever level he understands, and that you appreciate him.

I know my children, or anyones children for that matter, can't be tottally prepared for lifes challanges and lessons. True some are better prepared than others, but the hearts intentions should allways be considered when it comes to our parents. Where was there heart and focus and what did they spend time doing for us? Did they stick thru everything?

There are just some things our kids need to learn at thier own pace and in the right time for them. We try to give them the basics and when we are not around them anymore when they are adults, hope the world doesn't beat them up to bad if some of the lessons didn't stick, or we didn't cover those twisted little turns that life throws at them when they are on thier own.

Many times we hope that they will come to us still as adults, and then we can reason with them as adults also, because we will all allways need support, even us parents.

All your Dad needs is for you to spend time with him, sooth his anxiety with your presence, for him to know you are still learning and growing, and you have him to thank for the inner self that tells you life can be better.

He needs to know you are making the right desicions and that he has been part of that.

I need to beleive in something that goes beyond the temporal and that our efforts in love serve a greater cause or reality that gets messed up in our perception of ourselves, and our purpose in life. A greater good, one out of our reach but worth living for, and sometimes it seems to escape us when we are allways thinking about the bills and details we must attend to.

I need to have peace with myself that everything I am currently doing is towards a good end, and that my conscience is clear. I have a feeling your Dad needs that too. I am not saying I know anything to achieve that for anyone including myself, but being alone, or not working together for those good things in life which give us peace and wholsomeness, is probably the scariest feeling I will ever know.

Your a great daughter Harmony, let your Dad know he is part of that and spend time with Him.

Ah, but thats just the Dad in me talking..Lol, We are so jealous..
Hiya Seeking

Thanks for your post, it means a lot. ITA with what your saying, I need to take one big CHILL PILL!! I tell you what this biological clock does all sorts of things to your mind power...It can really mess you up.

I don't feel ready in my heart, but my head is telling me to get the D done. I have not lost out on all hope that my H will hit rock bottom, but I know this is going to be very slim. I am fighting years of emotional programming, an entire family and all the doe eyed woman out there willing to lap it up. I so wish I could just walk away.

It really is just an emotional roller coaster and sometimes I feel that he is going to walk in and say 'hi honey' and every thing is back to normal. The mornings are the worst. Don't get me wrong, I think it was you Seeking who said Plan B is a whole lot better than been back with WH under the wrong conditions. I need this time on my own to figure out who I am, to self soothe, to be happy in my own skin to not have to rely on someone to make me happy.

OH and you mentioned OM, OK there is no point lying on this site. I sent him an email, told him what was going on, and he called me, it felt really good, we just chatted for about 1hour and half as friends. I told him what has been happening, and he said he was sorry that things had not worked out, that when I sent him the NC letter, he really hoped that we would work through it. I told him some of what went on, and he said I deserved better and that the way my H was dealing with my infidelity was not normal. He said that there will be someone out there for me, who would treat me better and care for me and that I would be better off in the long run. He also apologised for starting this mess off, and that he has learnt a lot from it. I don't know, I am just very untrusting of anyone at the moment, like JL said he is encased in a man who sleeps with a married woman.

I know I am going to get lots of 2 x 4's but he is a friend to me. I know that he is the kind of person that I could pick up the phone at whatever time and we would be ok.

Jl - I know you haven't posted in awhile, but I really have you to thank for me being so grounded!! I appreciate what you have said to me about being on my own, it feels so empowering, I don't actually need a man. I am still concerned about many things such as why I chose someone whenI knew red flags, whether my H is capable of changing and whether it is worth waiting, whether I am slightly depressed as I am still a shadow of former self.

Hiya Constant

Thanks for your words about my Dad. Also, thank you for listening to me....

Ok nothing is straightfoward in this life time, so bare with me. I can't believe I am going into all of this, and I know your posts are long (i love them!) so I am allowed long posts too occasionally!!

My Dad and I have had an odd relationship. My mum and dad divorced when I was 8 years old, my Dad was a serial cheater and physically abused my mother and occasionally hit my sisters. My dad is now very remorseful of this. This was a long time ago and as I was very young only saw some of it happening. My mother divorced my father when I was 8 and pretty much hooked up with my Step Dad within a year.

I found this really difficult, losing my Dad, then 12 months later moving into a new home with a new man. I did struggle with this for a few years.

However, I idolised my father until way into my late teens and only when I started to become an adult I saw him for what he is. I can only really say that I have become close to him again whilst all this is going on with H. He has been great support.

You know what they say dont you? That a girl marries her father? Well it looks in the grand scheme of things I did. Which may explain why I find it maybe easier to overlook some misdemeanours as I remember many a time when I was a little girl, my Dad crying. Also, I think my Dad leaving abruptly when I was little, could perhaps mean that when people leave my life I find it really hard? I do seem to always have some kind of min breakdown when a relationship ends!!!

My H is like my father, he is a workaholic, a 'mans man, LOVES golf, is self centred, has different faces and I was always trying to get his attention!

I am not really sure where I am going with all of this, appart from whatever the history I love my father deeply, and just want him not to worry about me. However, my father sees happiness as being settled in a relationship with a family so will not have peace with me living on my own and being 'ok'. If you get that? I sometimes want him to realise that you can be happy on your own?

I will keep plugging it, and have told him of my reasons, but for him I think he sees many likeness in my H from his past. My Dads words to me, daughter, when you are emotionally upset you do things that are out of character, however he did add, that he needs to get a grip on his emotions.

Bit messed up at the moment, I am better than I thought I would be and I am ok. Maybe this is what time on your own is all about sorting the wheat from the chaff.

Rambling tonight. Want to stop thinking and start living in the moment.

I think the problem is, I still feel 'owned' by H because of the marriage/ the house/ the control, maybe thats what is holding me back?

Harmony.

You asked me for input a while back. Now, let me provide some unsolicited commentary:

twoxfour

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
OH and you mentioned OM, OK there is no point lying on this site. I sent him an email, told him what was going on, and he called me, it felt really good, we just chatted for about 1hour and half as friends.

...

I know I am going to get lots of 2 x 4's but he is a friend to me. I know that he is the kind of person that I could pick up the phone at whatever time and we would be ok.

I shouldn't need to point out that "a friend" who you would "be ok" with is hardly someone willing to drop pants and rub nasties with a married woman.

I shouldn't need to point out that such "a friend" would have no qualms about destroying a marriage to get his own needs met.

I shouldn't need to point out that, after months on this site, after hours and hours of time invested BY OTHERS, after countless posts FOR YOU, you should have more respect for your H, your M, and your self.

How dare you.
Glad you posted that. My crystal ball already figured there was some issues with Dad anyway and I don't know if you mentioned parents were divorced or not, but it seemed like they were.

Ussually if there is a problem in the home when children are little, thier is a tendancy to marry someone who reflects the member who has the greatest obvious problems. Or, you run away screaming from them. So marries thier father? well trys to fix past problems and look for redemtion is probably a more apt phrase. But I get where your coming from totally.


So worth looking into anyway, you might have been compensating in your marriage or something. I don't really know how to put it cuz I am not a professional counselor. I just hope you find one who "gets it" for you. A good one is invaluable, the wrong one is frustrating.


I will post later to smack you with 2x4s about OM. In short, he blew it when he slept with you and even if he knows it and is sorry, he is NOT freind material. Glad he is man enough to know it.

Sounds like you are getting objectivity and working on life issues Harmony. TTYL
Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
I shouldn't need to point out that, after months on this site, after hours and hours of time invested BY OTHERS, after countless posts FOR YOU, you should have more respect for your H, your M, and your self.

How dare you.

Agree with Mrs. V on this Harmony. And for the record, Mrs. V is the wayward in her sitch (in case you didn't notice her sig) so it's not just BS's smacking you with 2x4's. This was really a terrible decision.

I guess I will sit back and wait for JL to come along to plant another boot firmly in your rear end..... A well deserved boot I might add.
Hi

I am just going to roll over and take the 2 x 4s. I have been quite apprehensive about posting that here, but there is no point if I am not going to be honest.

I guess I am just a bit messed up at the moment, and talking to him felt good.

I told him about this place and what everyone had said about 'OM'. He said that he deeply regrets what happened but he loves me. He even said he would post here, not that I want him too.

Boy what a mess.


Harmony,
Don't complicate your life with any of that again.......I know it's hard when you feel down and out and alone......
Brush yourself off and get back on the train going straight to Harmony's happiness and better days, the more days you waste the longer your new life and family can happen......
Stop going backwards and start going forward.......go out, meet new people......
Make a better, happier life for yourself......
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
guess I am just a bit messed up at the moment, and talking to him felt good.

Geez Harmony...haven't you learned anything here? So, since your WH is out there acting like a fool you figured it was fine for you to act the same? Unbelievable....

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I told him about this place and what everyone had said about 'OM'. He said that he deeply regrets what happened but he loves me. He even said he would post here, not that I want him too.

All that I can say to this is puke

And I thought you were really learning and making progress. Boy was I wrong....
And what would happen if your husband came back full on working on the marriage then to find out that you talked to OM during "plan B" ??????

I think you just screwed up ANY CHANCE saving this marriage.

I'm sorry you might as well get that divorce there is no repairing all this dishonesty in your relationship with your husband.

P.S what you did was very selfish and very immature and we thought you learned something here on MB. Might as well just end your marriage.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Boy what a mess.


Your the one that did it sweetie.
please dont post on my site anymore SR.

You are a very harsh critic, for someone so early in their recovery.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
please dont post on my site anymore SR.

You are a very harsh critic, for someone so early in their recovery.


At least I do not go around calling the OM during a plan B and trying to repair a marriage. What I said was the truth. What? Does the truth hurt?
As I said don't post on my thread anymore.

I read what you put on Annes thread, and it seems that you are not adapt at listening to the truth very well either.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I know I am going to get lots of 2 x 4's


You asked for it laugh
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
As I said don't post on my thread anymore.

I read what you put on Annes thread, and it seems that you are not adapt at listening to the truth very well either.


rotflmao

I'm sorry, but this is not anne's thread this is yours so stick your stitch
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
and it seems that you are not adapt at listening to the truth very well either.


Did you just not tell us you called OM?

Did you not just tell us that calling him was so nice?

So you tell me what would you say if I had posted that on my thread?
Goodbye SR.
Good luck on plan B laugh
Okay. So. Whew.

Harmony, you know you messed up with contacting the OM, right?

If you expect any improvement, if you genuinely want to better yourself - for your current M, for any future relationship, or, more importantly, for you overall - you have got to get away from all of this.

When you know better, you do better. You've come to MB. Heck, you're being actively cheated on. You now know better. Yet contacting OM...NOT doing better.

It felt good because your Taker is sick of this, your needs aren't being met, and you ignored all of the counsel you have received here.

But you've been down this path before. It's why you were here in the first place.

I really don't know what to say right now. You know better. Now do better. Please.
Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Okay. So. Whew.

Harmony, you know you messed up with contacting the OM, right?

If you expect any improvement, if you genuinely want to better yourself - for your current M, for any future relationship, or, more importantly, for you overall - you have got to get away from all of this.

When you know better, you do better. You've come to MB. Heck, you're being actively cheated on. You now know better. Yet contacting OM...NOT doing
better.

It felt good because your Taker is sick of this, your needs aren't being met, and
you ignored all of the counsel you have received here.

But you've been down this path before. It's why you were here in the first
place.

I really don't know what to say right now. You know better. Now do better.
Please.

Yes I know Mrs V. My taker coming out in full force. I will do better, I was just lonely and went to someone who I know wanted me. I am annoyed at myself and am not going to let it happen again.

I have been getting loads of good advice on this site and I will not ruin all the good work. I had to post it though as I knew it was a bad move.

Thanks for the 2 x 4 frown It needed to happen.

I suppose I am in land confusion, I don't even know if I want to save my M anymore, as I can't make my H into something he is not.


@Harmony2010,

You might need to change your sig line from "FWW 34" to "WW 34" since you reached out to the other man again. This line is telling as to exactly what you're experiencing:

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I suppose I am in land confusion, I don't even know if I want to save my M anymore, as I can't make my H into something he is not.


This is Contrast Effect at play right now. You talked to your OM. He played on the fantasy, telling you how you deserve better, how he wouldn't treat you that way, and empathized with you, saying all the right things.

He deposited MASSIVE NUMBERS of Love Units in that 90-minute conversation. MASSIVE. So suddenly, your husband doesn't look like saving in contrast. And you're far less inclined to be interested in saving the marriage yourself, because this OM who just seems to understand you (fantasy) and who says all the right things (fantasy) and makes you feel good (fantasy) looks like the more attractive option.

He is now, and will always be, an acute threat to your marriage. That's the reason for no-contact-for-life. This man has proven he has no compunction about cheating with you. That means he'll probably cheat on you if you were to be together, too. That's some fantasy-busting, if you apply the same exact thing your wayward husband is doing to you right now and realize your OM would do the same thing.

I empathize with you, but your Plan B has now become "separated and dating other people". Because your phone conversation was exactly that: a date. Instead of finding a compassionate female who could help you and with whom you could fill your need for intimate conversation, you found a male who you knew you were attracted to and began tilling that rotten soil again.

Should your husband ever choose to reconcile, you're going to create some fresh wounds when you explain what you did while you were in Plan B: "Plan Betrayal".
I had a hunch you were about to contact OM.

It�s done. Not a good idea, right? Felt good for the moment, but the shockwaves will reverberate for a while. Don�t fight them � you can�t win. Fighting them will end in you calling OM again, or calling your H.

You aren�t grounded in your truth yet. You are still struggling to cobble together a Harmony from bits and pieces of others.

Doesn�t work. Why not? Because you are intrinsically enough. You don�t need OM or your H or anyone else to validate your value, and you are choosing men who don�t.

Why?

You don�t owe it to this site or the posters here to not contact OM or maintina a perfect Plan B.

You owe those things to Harmony. Give them to yourself.

You fell. Tend to the gash on your knee, feel the pain, apply the ointment, bandage it up, and stand back up.

What happened that you broke NC? What were you feeling at the time, and more importantly, what were you fighting feeling? There are fault lines in all of us. We have to know where they are lest we build our house on them.

Stand up sweetie � it�s OK to fail as long as you learn. What did you learn?

You were lonely. What is your plan to fill that lonliness next time?

Today was day one of NC, tomorrow will be day two, and so we will go through withdrawal.
Very nice post, seeking. Also, great call on the OM warning!
I believe DoNoMO hit a lot of nails on the head in his post also Harmony. Especially about the fantasy crap that has ahold of you.

If we could recap some of the fantasys you have already experienced that have broken your heart? Lets see...

Current H loves me..and will come to a great epifamy like a magic story out of a fairy tale, it doesn't matter what I do..

He should be able to read my mind when things are really hurting me, and if he can't he will eventually because I love him so and things allways work out in the end. I have no right to demand anything from him anyways.

Sex is love, or a resonable facsimile.


Loves process allways feels good.


I automatically deserve a good marriage, reguardless of what each of us do in it.

This one... OM loves me and if things were different.... puke


I forgot how old you are, but like they say, youre' old enough to know better, so listen up..I am only gonna say this once OK? Clearly and honestly as I would to anyone, so put on the big girl panties and listen and think about what I say here. I wont post again or try to help you if you talk to this azz OM anymore. Don't half-azz post here and think you will be able to fool us if you are really really respecting our help, or mine if you keep talking to him and hiding that very important issue that is effecting you. You will just be wasting all of our time and digging a hole for yourself as you slip back into the same ol same ol.

OM made a choice that showed his character and planned it all along. Right from the start his interest was to boost his own pitiful ego while he got into your pants and took advantage of you at a time of weekness. What a wonderful guy...What a pathetic boy..Now are you planning on a repeat of this marriage? Where you are so "Understanding" puke, while you play scarlet O'Hara and get the "vapors"?

OM made the choice...Pacify you and you broken heart and screw you to be the big hero, or suggest counselling for you and your husband. Heck, if he really wanted to get that personal and help you he could have talked to your H, granted he might have gotten a punch in the mouth, but how much is your honor worth anyway. What was OM willing to sacrifice for you?, certainly he was not able to say no to you, and yes, men can resist you, they all do not beleive you are innocent and guileless, and the secure ones can see the signs.

If he cared for you he wouldn't have screwed you, and its to late now, he showed his true colors, and most of all...you can't "fix" him either..


Try to understand that last sentence..think about all of this HARD, realize the last thing you need is to think you are out of the woods yet, you just found the path..

Yeah seeking, where did you get your crystal ball BTW?


Sorry Harmony, some of us here ol folks can read between the lines, we don't have crystal balls. We also are not mind readers or magicians. There is no magic or fairy tale fantasys, at least none we would feed you to.

Were trying to help you and are worried about you too. Maybe thats a joke to you. I hope not.

Good night
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 11/09/10 01:10 AM
I forget Harmony, is the OM in your AFFAIR married?

Have you not read the stats on the affairs? It is DOOMED. You are not more special than anyone else.

Before you go and kick ME off of your thread, I am bowing out.

Take care.
Originally Posted by constantprocess
Yeah seeking, where did you get your crystal ball BTW?

Been there, did not do that, but I understand.

I think what may be being overlooked here is that many, if not all, of the FWW�s who post here seem to have an H at home trying to make it work. I can�t think of one right off who doesn�t.

Not all of us have that.

There is a big difference.

The decision tree is different. You can�t look to something that isn�t there to which you can cleave. Harmony doesn't have anything remotely resembling a marriage right now.

The decision comes down to honoring yourself.

Originally Posted by constantprocess
There is no magic or fairy tale fantasys.

When reality is really grim, fantasy can sustain. The �maybe�s� multiply exponentially in direct correlation to how grim the reality is. It�s human nature.

Acting on those fantasies is a huge mistake. Guiding Harmony who is clinging to the fantasy to its� logical outcome is the only remedy. Supporting Harmony through that process to the point where she can see a reality on the other side that is not so grim, a process which occasionally gets mixed up, is the only reason I post.

CP, please do not take this as any sort of comment or criticism as it is not meant to be. I have a different perspective. I think both of our perspectives may be helpful.

Hey � I�ve raised teenagers. I can see what is coming. I suspect Harmony is going to need some serious support through the next few weeks to make the right choices for her. I am sticking around, regardless.

Originally Posted by Scotland
Before you go and kick ME off of your thread, I am bowing out.

Scotland, I have read literally hundreds of your posts and I have never known you to be unkind, not once, not even a little bit, ever. I hope you don�t mean this.
Quote
I told him about this place and what everyone had said about 'OM'. He said that he deeply regrets what happened but he loves me. He even said he would post here, not that I want him too.

Really Harmony? Really? What purpose would OM have for posting here? To convince us that he's really not such a bad guy? That he has your best interests at heart? Really?

Are you playing games or are you just naive?

OM is no friend to you and certainly not to your marriage.

End your marriage BEFORE you entertain the thought of bringing another man into your mess. You are no where close to being in any kind of relationship. Children? Oh Lord, I hope not, unless and until you figure out your own value and understand the meaning of honoring your vows.
Quote
The decision comes down to honoring yourself.

And your VOWS. She is married. So are you. Don't want to be married? Get divorced FIRST and THEN do what you want.
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
And your VOWS.

Honoring vows is honoring self.

Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Get divorced FIRST and THEN do what you want.

Agree.
Harmony likes the poor little bad boys. I thought she was going to see it, not hide it with another episode with another one.

If this guy had any nuts he would stop the cycle for her and admit he was a wuss for taking advantage of her, even if she asked for it. Instead he is willing to wimp out and wants forgiveness and understanding, something that Harmony gives to the wrong guys.

He is a user, now a wolf in sheeps clothing, maybe he doesn't know it, and he believes his own tripe, but for Gods sake leave her alone. He can't see it can he? If he did he would just go away and be honest with her and let her hate him if need be, instead of trying to be..blah..friends.

I understand fantasy and how we need to visualize a future for ourselves. I also know she is in a tough place emotionally and tring to find value in herself. I have seen it before and I will see it again because it is the human nature to seek relationship and its nothing new.


I expect better from her, if I didn't, it would be IMO a DJ to believe she couldn't change or learn. I know she can. I want her to be free from the fear of not being loved. I want her to see she is, by her friends here. If she can imagine this also, by God.

I wont feel sorry for her, not now, I believe she can have a great life if she would only fight for it and know she is worthy of it ..just cuz..thats why.

I find you very balanced seeking, and I like what you are saying also.

I reserve the right to get ticked at Harmony just as I would any of my friends I respect and beleive in and care for. To me that is love also, and breeds understanding to those left alone to think about who they are and what they can do for themselves.

She doesn't need this guy, she doesn't need any guy, to be a whole and complete women. I have a suspition that she is weak in this area, and that men have taken advantage of her, but few have ever really addressed why and she doesn't see it.

So sue me, I was hoping she would take us all seriuosly and trust us that we care for her, even when we get mad, and she has shown us she really doesn't belive what we say or it doesn't apply to her.

Cmon Harmony, do you really think that little of us?

I will look into the thread time to time but I probably will lose interest if I think Im talking to a brick wall, then I will start following a new thread and hope you will learn your lesson someday, get help, and learn via the pain we are all trying to help you avoid.

Untill then I will post, but there is a time limit for your life and everyones time here too. How long will you waste it?
Originally Posted by seekingbalance
I think what may be being overlooked here is that many, if not all, of the FWW�s who post here seem to have an H at home trying to make it work. I can�t think of one right off who doesn�t.

Not all of us have that.

There is a big difference.

The decision tree is different. You can�t look to something that isn�t there to which you can cleave. Harmony doesn't have anything remotely resembling a marriage right now.

The decision comes down to honoring yourself.

For arguments' sake, I'll say: while it may help to have a BS at home willing to work the program, it is not necessary. In fact, if you cling only to that, you're doing yourself, your BS, and your M a huge disservice. As I believe I have told almost every WW I have posted to on here, you need to know who you are. What you stand for.

If you don't do that - if you don't find yourself in all of this - and instead just start trying to rebuild a M touched by your infidelity, you are building a house on a bed of sand.

While infidelity has many predictable and similar points, we are all still dealing with things in our own corners of the world. Sometimes both spouses are fully on board. Sometimes neither one is. Sometimes it takes D-day to start to turn things around. Sometimes it takes years before the WS defogs. Whatever the situation, if you don't know yourself, you're only setting the stage for further trouble.
Holy cow, Harmony! What were you thinking...

I already wrote the hellish long post to you, but then I deleted it, and say only this ...

If you choose to stay contacted to OM, you will end up being a potential OW to married couples in the future.

If you choose to stay the way you are, you are dangerous, a threat yourself. Do you want to stay that way?




I know. He is not married he is single. I would not ever get involved with someone who is married. Not that matters I won't be contacting him again, I shouldn't have gone there. I just want to be on my own, not married, not dating not anything.

Can't trust men at all.

Then be on your own, work on yourself.

Quote
Can't trust men at all.

This is you, honey, who cannot be trusted. You cannot trust yourself. The minute you realize that would be a turning point in your recovery.
Quote
I would not ever get involved with someone who is married.

Do you see the irony in this statement? I could have sworn YOU are married, so what does that say about OM?

Quote
Can't trust men at all.

Huh? Aren't YOU the one who reached out to him? How did you expect him to react? You already knew he is the type of man who is willing to "go there", he's proven that. Now it seems you have shown him that you're just like him. But you're not... are you?

This is painful to watch. Why sabotage yourself?

You should go read on TOW for awhile and see if you relate. It should make you sick to your stomach. There are a lot of women over there who think like you do.

Time to change your stinkin thinkin.

I'm probably old enough to be your mother and as a mother I would say to you, "Sweetie, you are so much better than this. You know better so you should do better."
Originally Posted by niitse
This is you, honey, who cannot be trusted. You cannot trust yourself. The minute you realize that would be a turning point in your recovery.

This, and

Originally Posted by mrs_vanilla
Whatever the situation, if you don't know yourself, you're only setting the stage for further trouble.

and

Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Sweetie, you are so much better than this. You know better so you should do better.

give you your roadmap Harmony. Decide to follow it.
Harmony,

Boy, you are receiving quite a few 2x4's for your actions.....Look at it this way, the OM you decided to call was the same man that has left you in the place you are in now.......Instead of calling him for comfort(so you think) you should be pissed off at him for being able to screw with someone else's life........That isn't a friend you need.......Someone that lies and cheats is not someone you should want in your life....look at the damage.
I often think this way, if my husband hadn't had the affair, how much easier would it have been to fix the problems in the marriage, Now it's like there is a big elephant in the room all the time........
Anyway I think you are seeing things a little better now and know what you should do....
You should just try to keep yourself busy, an idle mind will not be good for you.
Don't be to hard on yourself, this whole situation is a learning process, this for you was a bump in the road....that's all, doesn't mean you can't move forward......
I know you must feel alone and wanting to have someone there for you, that will come Harmony, taking steps backwards is just going to slow down that process......
Set some future goals for yourself, things that are important and make them happen Harmony.......You want kids someday, the first step to that is finding someone who you love and want to build that family with.....that's in the future Harmony, not in the past..........
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 11/09/10 01:34 PM
REMEMBER, AFFAIREES AFFAIR DOWN. That means, that as much as your WH has done to you, he is BETTER than OM. Think about it THAT way for a second and give your head a shake.

YOU WOULDN'T sleep with a MARRIED man? Oh, so you have SOME morals? You have certain rules and lines that you WOULDN'T cross? When you first got married, did you think that it was okay to have SF with other people? When you said your vows, were you crossing your fingers at the "forsaking all others" part? Did you NOT mean them? I am CERTAIN that you NEVER thought you would do what you did, but you did.

You contacted OM because it made you feel GOOD. Affairs are like DRUGS and they can make you feel good, for a WHILE. And then they make you feel BAD.

You awoke your AFFAIR. You are an ACTIVE wayward. I am ANGRY about that. I am MAD at YOU for CHOOSING to become wayward AGAIN. Especially after you have felt the pain it causes. It is like a slap in the face to all of the people who have been trying to help you.

t/j Seeking, I CAN be mean. I HAVE posted some things that were mean. I was choosing not to post some hurtful things to Harmony. I am PASSIONATE about things. When I see something that I don't agree with, I tell people. When something goes against my moral code, I SPEAK UP. It is just who I am. end t/j
Originally Posted by Scotland
You awoke your AFFAIR. You are an ACTIVE wayward. I am ANGRY about that. I am MAD at YOU for CHOOSING to become wayward AGAIN. Especially after you have felt the pain it causes. It is like a slap in the face to all of the people who have been trying to help you.


This statement is true....sigh.... frown
I'm not worried about what you've done. Can't change it now!

Come here BEFORE these thoughts turn into actions and ask for help. HDD will cause you, and others, pain every time.
(HDD = Honesty Deficit Disorder)

What I want to know is, what are you doing to insure No Contact from this moment on?

Would you list out the specific steps you are taking to stay N/C?
Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
I'm not worried about what you've done. Can't change it now!

Come here BEFORE these thoughts turn into actions and ask for help. HDD will cause you, and others, pain every time.
(HDD = Honesty Deficit Disorder)

What I want to know is, what are you doing to insure No Contact from this moment on?

Would you list out the specific steps you are taking to stay N/C?


EXACTLY...

WHAT'S YOUR PLAN?????


I am encouraged that you came back here and told on yourself honestly...knowing you'd take some hits. Even Seeking Balance had contact with her OM after she started posting here but she kept it a secret on this board. So I'm glad you feel safe enough to be honest with us. THAT is a sign of someone wanting to change and trusting that the people here actually have your back (and we'll hit it when we think you need it).

Please understand that you are going to feel a little better for a few days because you just got your fix of OM and HERE we are talking about OM. You've got to move on from that once a plan is in place for later this week/month as withdrawal kicks in again. OM is irrelevant to your life. The sooner you cut him out the sooner you can get him out of your mind and you can begin again...to live the rest of your life OM free regardless of the outcome in your marriage. OM is toxic to your soul.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

Maybe it is too hard to think about a future without your BH or OM or whomever.....forever is a long time.

For right now, do it today.

Find something to occupy your thoughts today...right now.
Find someone who needs your help.
Find a challenging work problem.
Start a new project.
Exercise.
Pray/meditate.
Take a warm bath or hot shower

Just today don't think about BH, OM or any man for that matter. Think about Harmony.

Don't worry about plan B, biological clocks, 2 X4's...just be.
You can't fix your BH, you can't fix your OM, but you can fix you.
(t/j) MrW, where in the world did you get the idea that I was in contact with OM after I started posting here? Such an odd thing to say.(t/j)
Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
I'm not worried about what you've done. Can't change it now!

Come here BEFORE these thoughts turn into actions and ask for help. HDD will cause you, and others, pain every time.
(HDD = Honesty Deficit Disorder)

What I want to know is, what are you doing to insure No Contact from this moment on?

Would you list out the specific steps you are taking to stay N/C?


Good post!
Originally Posted by seekingbalance
(t/j) MrW, where in the world did you get the idea that I was in contact with OM after I started posting here? Such an odd thing to say.(t/j)

It's not a big deal. You ARE in "no contact" now, correct?

Shortly after you started posting here, someone who posts at another infidelity website AND this one emailed me your posts as H__19__ at that board. As I recall, such posts indicated you had made one or more contacts with your OM after you started posting here and claiming you were in no contact. I could be wrong???? I kept my mouth shut about it as I saw you were making progress. "No Contact" is tough. My wife did the "closure contact" thing as well. It's not the end of the world but the beginning of the NEXT commitment to "no contact". All I was trying to tell the posters herein is that I am encouraged by her being completely honest and trusting of us here as such honesty is extremely difficult.

My wife and I are actually encouraged seeing you hand out advice to betrayed husbands. It was very helpful to my wife as she worked through her issues and coming to terms with what she had done way back in 2005. Eventually she came to understand how we handle things around here and even participates in the strong stance against adultery undertaken herein. We hope you realize that MB was very effective in redirecting your energies and "feelings" (upset) towards us and away from OM and yourself. We gave you a diversion and a healthy outlet that you desperately needed last spring/early summer. Though it may not have felt that way at the time or now...we were your families "safe place".

Any questions about this or anything else you'd like to address...my wife and I share the email address in my sig line. Wish you well.

Mr. W

p.s. - If I am mistaken...I apologize in advance
Originally Posted by MrWondering
I am encouraged that you came back here and told on yourself honestly...knowing you'd take some hits. Even Seeking Balance had contact with her OM after she started posting here but she kept it a secret on this board. So I'm glad you feel safe enough to be honest with us. THAT is a sign of someone wanting to change and trusting that the people here actually have your back (and we'll hit it when we think you need it).


I think you can say I DID feel safe to come here and be honest. I don't any longer. I knew I would get 2 x 4's, ofcourse thats why I did it. There is no point me being here and not being honest, thats even more of a waste of peoples time. I did and still people have my back. I know people feel let down and I am annoyed at myself, but I can do this, and do know better.

What I did not know is that I would get people being MEAN, laughing at my situation, taunting me and creating new threads ranting about what has happened. I am not really in the right emotional place at the moment for that kind of treatment.

I really would like to thank all those you who have been supportive though the OM situation, by giving 2 x 4s but making some positive suggestions. I really mean that. I will have a think about steps to ensure no contact.

Princessmeggy what you said rang really true, that I would never get involved with a married man so what does that make OM.

Thanks all

Harmony
Harmony, I was thinking over this last night and this morning, and what I didn't mention is right in line with what Mr. W brought up - you DID come here and post honestly about contacting the OM, and that's a big positive.

Please think long and hard, come up with some plans, and keep posting.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I will have a think about steps to ensure no contact.

Unfortunately...sticking around here in a place you'll be held accountable for breaking "no contact" and made to feel (TEMPORARY) shame for doing so is one of the BEST STEPS you can take. The MORE you engage here the more motivated to NOT do what your brain will try trick you into doing (contact with OM) you'll be.

Realize you are in a sea of posters all at differing stages in this extremely difficult process. It's an anonymous public forum and anyone can lash out at you for just about anything. What you did was wrong. Was it a mistake or is it truly your character? We (collectively) are challenging you to DO BETTER TODAY and promising you that better days will follow.

I'll see if I can link in my wife's thread from 2005 where she took it on the head for "closure contact". She stuck it out and so can you.

Mr. W
Originally Posted by MrWondering
I'll see if I can link in my wife's thread from 2005 where she took it on the head for "closure contact".

2005 Pep ~~~> twoxfour <~~~ Mrs Wondering

2010 Pep ~~~> loveheart <~~~ Mrs Wondering
Posted By: markos Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 11/09/10 06:53 PM
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=121935&Number=1431308#Post1431308
Harmony, I�m going to tell you this story as I think it might help you.

I posted on another site for a while. One day maybe 6-7 weeks into NC, I had a bad white knuckle moment. I remembered that you can always hit �send� but you can never hit �unsend,� posted a new SOS thread and went for a run in the 112 degreeiish heat.

The responses I got back were decisive and compelling and the moment passed.

What I realized during my run was that the trigger for wanting to break NC was the fact that my precious S19 had left or was about to leave for college � I can�t remember which one. I think I mentioned that I pre-replaced my conversational partner, S19, with OM.

It wasn�t what I was feeling that was the trigger. It was what I was avoiding feeling. I sat alone in my dining room and sobbed by myself for hours, grieving the end of that time. I�m crying right now typing about it. And I don�t cry. I'm giving myself permission to feel the feeling -- to re-grieve it. It's not a rational thing for me to be doing on November 9. But I'm not fighting it.

My point is two-fold. First, what you are avoiding feeling may be as important as what you are feeling. Second, if you ask for help to get through those moments, you will get it. Start a new thread if you need to �SOS from Harmony.� You have an entire community here who want to guard your back when you don�t feel you can do it alone.

Originally Posted by harmony2010
What I did not know is that I would get people being MEAN, laughing at my situation, taunting me and creating new threads ranting about what has happened. I am not really in the right emotional place at the moment for that kind of treatment.

I understand you feel like you are being mistreated. I haven't read what you are referring to, so I don't know, but I understand that is the way you feel right now. You may or may not look back on this and feel the same way.

For the time being, ignore all that. Keep your eye on the ball. You have a bunch of people, me included, (or at least I hope so!) who are not doing the things you find demeaning.

Don't get me wrong. You know I'll beat you up when I think it's necessary! I think you are doing a fine job of beating yourself up, with a little help from your friends....It's all about balance, right?

You lost your balance. You fell. Feel the pain of the fall, get back up, look yourself in the eye and decide to do better. But you can't skip the feeling the pain part -- that is what will refine your balance so you don't fall again.

Mr. W, I find the emailing posts thing a little odd, but whatever. I am keenly aware of the importance of this site in getting me through those difficult weeks, and am grateful to the owners for hosting it, and to all those who took their time to help me.

ETA: Just realized NC four months today. There was no closure contact or anything like that.
Quote
What I did not know is that I would get people being MEAN, laughing at my situation, taunting me and creating new threads ranting about what has happened.

Harmony, you have to understand one thing. There are many BS's here and many of them do some serious heavy-lifting and some of them actually are in Plan B, trying to save what is there to be saved. Although they have no personal business with you, they feel betrayed by someone who does what you did.

I have walked in your shoes. Addressing your weaknesses is a good place to start over. Everyone here is ready to give you a hand, I hope you don't give up.
Hi Harmony.
You seem like a reasonable person.
I hope the following helps you ...

Quote
OH and you mentioned OM, OK there is no point lying on this site. I sent him an email, told him what was going on, and he called me, it felt really good, we just chatted for about 1hour and half as friends.

Of course it felt good.
He stroked your ego.



Quote
I told him what has been happening, and he said he was sorry that things had not worked out, that when I sent him the NC letter, he really hoped that we would work through it.

You shared personal, intimate information with a man who is not your husband.


Quote
I told him some of what went on,

Allow me to translate .... you made your husband look his worst, so you could look your best.

Quote
and he said I deserved better

You have not earned "better".
Few of us get what we deserve.
Forget about "deserve".
Deserve is for those who feel entitled to something, often without them making any difficult effort.

OM is a putz for saying this.
You are WRONG for discussing your husband's shortcomings with OM.
How bad is that?
REALLY BAD


Quote
and that the way my H was dealing with my infidelity was not normal.

Spoken like a true putz.


Quote
He said that there will be someone out there for me, who would treat me better and care for me and that I would be better off in the long run.

Stroking your ego.
Making you feel like you "deserve" some magical love which will require no effort on your part.

PUTZ


Quote
He also apologised for starting this mess off, and that he has learnt a lot from it.

Not enough, apparently. MrRollieEyes


Quote
I don't know, I am just very untrusting of anyone at the moment, like JL said he is encased in a man who sleeps with a married woman.

Look in the mirror Harmony.
Everything OM is, you see reflected in a mirror.
Do not trust yourself.

Quote
I know I am going to get lots of 2 x 4's but he is a friend to me.

He strokes your ego.
He encourages you to feel entitled and deserving.
He offers nothing to help you improve your OWN core values and moral compass.

He helps you demonize your HUSBAND.
Which takes the focus off of your culpability.
Some "friend".
PUTZY OM



Quote
I know that he is the kind of person that I could pick up the phone at whatever time and we would be ok.

Because he lacks boundaries of propriety, as do you.

Well?



Yes, that's the one.
Thanks. dance2
Harmony, how many women friends do you have right now?

I never hear that you are confiding in your women friends, this is available to you at any time instead of these creepy cheatermen.

Next, you will tell us that you are divorcing your husband and marrying the other man. I hope you will not come back and tell us this.

You have a problem with men and your boundaries. If you do not cure your underlying "men weaknesses", you will never be able to have a good marriage or children or anything you want.

It is up to you how you want to live your life.

1. You can have bad relationships with bad men with your bad boundaries, and date and marry bad men. If you have children with these men the kids will suffer.

2. You can get to the root of your "man issues" and change yourself. You can get comfortable being without men and having women friends. You can then divorce this husband if he is the kind of man I think he is. Then you can wait a year and start dating carefully looking for a quality man who would never cheat. You will meet a good man IF YOU YOURSELF ARE GOOD AND HAVE WORKED OUT YOUR ISSUES. Carefully date him, observe him, and then marry him if it is right.

Then and only then can you have the marriage and family of your dreams.

Do you want to work hard to get the marriage of your dreams or do you want to take the easy way out? It is up to you and how much work you are willing to do on yourself and your own weak (due to man issues) personality.
Originally Posted by seekingbalance
Mr. W, I find the emailing posts thing a little odd, but whatever. I am keenly aware of the importance of this site in getting me through those difficult weeks, and am grateful to the owners for hosting it, and to all those who took their time to help me.

I should add such email was unsolicited. Such person THOUGHT you were lying to this board and brought it to my attention, perhaps, because I've confronted liars before (and taken quit a hit for it, as you may be aware...liars like to turn the tables instead of addressing their own nefarious behavior [for example...despite claims it is a fabrication that I ever posted a link to a poster's xw's State Supreme Court case]). I didn't see a lie in your posts at the other forum other than a strong hint that maybe "no contact" for you started two weeks after you said it did on MB. I didn't see any purpose in disrupting your process (to question you) whether you lied or not. It's all irrelevant now anyway (see below).


Originally Posted by Seeking Balance
ETA: Just realized NC four months today. There was no closure contact or anything like that.

Congrats. 4 months. hurray That is all that matters to me. Without "no contact" nothing else is even remotely possible for you, your husband and your family.

Mr. Wondering
Quote
What I realized during my run was that the trigger for wanting to break NC was the fact that my precious S19 had left or was about to leave for college � I can�t remember which one. I think I mentioned that I pre-replaced my conversational partner, S19, with OM. It wasn�t what I was feeling that was the trigger. It was what I was avoiding feeling. I sat alone in my dining room and sobbed by myself for hours, grieving the end of that time. I�m crying right now typing about it. And I don�t cry. I'm giving myself permission to feel the feeling -- to re-grieve it. It's not a rational thing for me to be doing on November 9. But I'm not fighting it.

My point is two-fold. First, what you are avoiding feeling may be as important as what you are feeling. Second, if you ask for help to get through those moments, you will get it. Start a new thread if you need to �SOS from Harmony.� You have an entire community here who want to guard your back when you don�t feel you can do it alone.

Read this again, Harmony. seekingbalance said exactly what I was thinking after I read that you'd contacted OM. You weren't running to something when you contacted him, you were running from something - your feelings. Your reality.

Come here and express your feelings. It will help you embrace them.

I haven't posted much on your thread because you've been getting some sterling help. Put unhelpful posters on ignore and keep reading. Leaving this site will not be helpful for you.
Harmony,

You said
Quote
Yes I know Mrs V. My taker coming out in full force. I will do better, I was just lonely and went to someone who I know wanted me. I am annoyed at myself and am not going to let it happen again.

I have been getting loads of good advice on this site and I will not ruin all the good work. I had to post it though as I knew it was a bad move.

Thanks for the 2 x 4 It needed to happen.

I suppose I am in land confusion, I don't even know if I want to save my M anymore, as I can't make my H into something he is not.


So how are those boundaries and their protection coming? It seems to me there are a few holes in them. If you want to talk to someone who cares you could talk to your Mom or even your Dad. OR...You could talk to SR. This might have eluded you but SR cares very much about you and your recovery into life. Many of us do, and we are very disappointed in what you have done. I will say that it isn't unheard of, but we always hope that the WS finally "gets it" and sees the OM/OW for what they are, self-pleasing and selfish.

Harmony, you have a decision to make regarding your H and your marriage. You are now seeing that apparently you married your Dad, or is it that you carry some of your father's previous lack of regard for the institution of marriage. I have not heard much about your step-Dad, but it would seem he is a much better male figure for you to consider in your future. As for needing a male in your life, people will say "you do not." I will say yes you do...IF you find the correct male. Just any old anatomically correct human will not do.

Harmony, what are your goals in life? I mean really what are they? And next, how are you proceeding to acheive them? What is your plan? You need one you know, sitting their hoping and wishing is not going to do it other than remind you of an old rock song by Dusty Springfield, OOPS, you are too young to recall that one.

Harmony, sit down and think about your boundaries, think about where the hole really is. Think about where you want to be, and the type of person you want to be. What are your goals? You have a lot of work to do.

Get with it girl.

God Bless,

JL
You have so many wonderful people posting to you - pressing you with thought provoking questions and dialog.

I just have one thing to offer and then I'll leave you with the more experienced posters.

My mother was almost beaten to death this summer by her husband of 2 years. He is in jail awaiting trial. At 59 years old, she has to make a new life for herself and come to terms with decisions and red flags she chose to ignore that led her to where she is in life today. Her thoughts and feelings are extremely scattered and change from day to day - sometimes moment to moment.

When she wants the truth, when she honestly wants help, and when she is ready to do the hard work of addressing what happened and moving on, she calls me, or my sisters, or her one true friend, or her counselor. She calls the people that will tell her what she NEEDS to hear. We aren't brutal - we are quite aware of her fragility - but we are very committed to her protection (sometimes even from her own thoughts)

When she wants to be coddled, her justifications validated, her denial supported she calls those "friends" that will tell her what she wants to hear in the moment. She calls the people that will tell her what she WANTS to hear. She considers visiting her abuser - he "loved" her, right?

They are not doing her any favors - they are helping her stay in frozen in time.

Those "friends" will support her right back into an abusive relationship where she could quite literally lose her life.

I hope you get my point. Most posters are here to tell you what you NEED to hear. When it makes you bristle ~ listen anyway.

Good luck......
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Hi Harmony.
You seem like a reasonable person.
I hope the following helps you ...

Quote
OH and you mentioned OM, OK there is no point lying on this site. I sent him an email, told him what was going on, and he called me, it felt really good, we just chatted for about 1hour and half as friends.

Of course it felt good.
He stroked your ego.



Quote
I told him what has been happening, and he said he was sorry that things had not worked out, that when I sent him the NC letter, he really hoped that we would work through it.

You shared personal, intimate information with a man who is not your husband.


Quote
I told him some of what went on,

Allow me to translate .... you made your husband look his worst, so you could look your best.

Quote
and he said I deserved better

You have not earned "better".
Few of us get what we deserve.
Forget about "deserve".
Deserve is for those who feel entitled to something, often without them making any difficult effort.

OM is a putz for saying this.
You are WRONG for discussing your husband's shortcomings with OM.
How bad is that?
REALLY BAD


Quote
and that the way my H was dealing with my infidelity was not normal.

Spoken like a true putz.


Quote
He said that there will be someone out there for me, who would treat me better and care for me and that I would be better off in the long run.

Stroking your ego.
Making you feel like you "deserve" some magical love which will require no effort on your part.

PUTZ


Quote
He also apologised for starting this mess off, and that he has learnt a lot from it.

Not enough, apparently. MrRollieEyes


Quote
I don't know, I am just very untrusting of anyone at the moment, like JL said he is encased in a man who sleeps with a married woman.

Look in the mirror Harmony.
Everything OM is, you see reflected in a mirror.
Do not trust yourself.

Quote
I know I am going to get lots of 2 x 4's but he is a friend to me.

He strokes your ego.
He encourages you to feel entitled and deserving.
He offers nothing to help you improve your OWN core values and moral compass.

He helps you demonize your HUSBAND.
Which takes the focus off of your culpability.
Some "friend".
PUTZY OM



Quote
I know that he is the kind of person that I could pick up the phone at whatever time and we would be ok.

Because he lacks boundaries of propriety, as do you.

Well?

Awesome post, Pep! It even contained your magic words [for me, anyway]~~~>REALLY BAD...I kid you not, those words still ring in my head today - 5 years later - Those words mean the world to me...Some people might associate them with shame - and YES, I'm STILL ashamed of what I did 5 years ago - I always will be ashamed of those actions - You can't turn bad into good after all -- but you CAN stop doing bad...I associate those words with choosing to stop being "really bad"...So, right back atcha, Pep~~~> loveheart

Harmony, I encourage you to read that old thread of mine that Markos linked - take a look at my reactions there - know that back then I read every single post as an attack on me -- and when I go back and read that thread now, I can't find a single attack from anyone but ME! blush

Stay Harmony, keep posting, keep reading, keep choosing to allow this forum to hold you accountable - You will be glad you did - No one ever regrets doing the right thing...

Lately, I am experiencing an extremely grateful period in my life - I look around me and know that I "deserve" NONE of what I have in my life -- and yet the blessings are there -- I don't think I will ever be able to say enough prayers of thanksgiving -- I tell you this because I do not believe that I would have gotten to this place in my life without this forum...Stick around Harmony, okay?

Mrs. W


Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I know. He is not married he is single. I would not ever get involved with someone who is married. Not that matters I won't be contacting him again, I shouldn't have gone there. I just want to be on my own, not married, not dating not anything.

Can't trust men at all.
Just slow down Harmony, you have a lot of things to think about and listen to all these great people here who care about you and your welfare.

Whats your hurry? The care we are all trying to help you with of yourself has value of eternal, not immediate rationalization and emotional fixes.

There are men you can trust, some of them right here on this board, maybe some in your personal life, and JL is right, you need those figures.

What you need to do is understand yourself first, then state what you want/need out of life, and excercise some patietence while you work towards that goal. Yes, testing and examining your reasons every day for what you want, if its really good for you, and bouncing it off of your friends. BEFORE you do them. especially right now.

If you want a marriage and a good relationship, you will have to work on the disciplines that everyone here does also.

All we can do is thru communication on this site is attempt to open your mind to the door of personal freedom so you can make good decisions for yourself. To help you think more healthy by helping you think.

You need help, we all do at sometime in our life, there is no shame. You must trust someone..

Who are you gonna trust?

Biblical quote here..

"The wounds of a friend are faithful, but the kisses of an enemy are decietful"

What are the key words here? "Friend" and "Enemy". So.. not to be too condesending, But can the kisses of a friend be decietful? Would the wounds of an enemy be faithful?..No..


Are we your friends? or Enemys? I think you know the answer to that.

I have no interest in leaving you hanging again just because you screwed up again, I think that has happened enough to you allready in life, but I want you to feel better faster and more than I am interested in you liking me or thinking I am a nice guy. I am not that pathetic.

If you can understand that please respond and in your own words explain what I mean.

Then we maybe can get back to being friends who are helping each other on this forum. Thats what we are doing here right?

Good night and pleasent dreams young lady.
Harmony,
This kind of situation is very difficult, we never really want to hear the truth, because the truth makes us have to be accountable for our actions.....You are no different than any of us........
Don't go or be hurt by the truth.....this is how we heal, when it's tough the tough have got to get going.....everyone here is just trying to help kick start you again, and show the path that you chose just for a moment Harmony is a harmful one for you....
Friends do that for each other......they just don't let you hurt yourself if there is anything they can do to help you........
Okay now brush yourself off, get the sawdust off from the 2x4's and move on again.......
Back to the bigger plan for Harmony, a happy, secure future......protecting yourself from history repeating itself.........
Time to get out there, enjoy your life and keep an open mind to what life can offer you........It's a big old world out there with a lot of great people out there, people that truly will care about "YOU".....This is the path you need to get to.....not the past and everything that has hurt you, why go back when there is so much to see in the future.........
It's not scary, It's exciting........
(((hugs))))
Hi All

Just want to let you know that I really need this place and really appreciate ALL the support I get here.

I am having a real difficult time right now, and just spending a lot time going through all the posts and spending some time thinking them through. I am really overwhelmed at how much support I have.

There is no point saying responding or saying whats on my mind as to be honest its just a jumbled mess right now.

All I know is I really need this place and time alone to get my head straight, this process has bought a lot of things up for me and this is not as simple as I had hoped.

Harmony.

It's OK, sometimes, to just read and think.
Let us know you are OK.
Originally Posted by Pepperband
It's OK, sometimes, to just read and think.
Let us know you are OK.

Right on Pep, as usual.

Remember Harmony, we are thinking of you, so you are not alone. Take your time and don't forget to breathe.
Harmony, I can say with about 90% certainty that I would have broken NC on that hot August day if I hadn't sent up my SOS.

Yes, it was about the trigger and the feelings I was fighting feeling.

But it was also that I got complacent. I thought I had it beat. It scared the living daylights out of me how quickly my resolve weakened. One second I was fine, the next I'm writing an email.

I don't think I have it beat any more. I'll never believe that again. Yes, it will fade, but constant vigilance is the price I will pay for the freedom from my A, a price I am paying cheerfully.
Hi All

I am back for more punishment smile I have learnt so much from this site I am not going to go anywhere, my head felt like it was about to explode the last 48 hours.

Thank you so much for all your posts, here are some responses.

Seeking - The reason for contacting the OM, was more cause I wanted to hear from someone who I felt would care and listen. I know he doesn't care, he is selfish and only cares about his needs, he had no respect for my M. I just don't want to face the reality of that. I can though, and I am starting too. I have a problem I think for seeing people for what they are, and tend to only see the good side, not accept the flaws. The main reason I owe it to myself for NC is to have this time alone. I don't want OM, I am running away from the acceptance of a failed M, and for him to go there there its ok, your wonderful his loss blah blah. Ofcourse I am still married and so I will not be dating, even if I was D, I wouldn't want to date, I just want time alone right now. BTW, thank you so much for saying that you would stick with me though this, you don't know what that meant when it was all getting a bit much here.

CP - Yes maybe I am holding onto some kind of fantasy where my H is concerned. The grim reality is not pretty and one that makes it very difficult to accept, but more on that later. You are right, it was only about an ego boost for the OM, I know that it is not because I want him, I suppose I don't want to accept that he did not care about me, he just used me for SF. If all of you are as experienced as you and you are, and which I believe you are then not another nice thing to accept, but I have big pants on now smile He does not care about me enough to recognise that I was having a low point in my M, and he took advantage of that. I suppose tough love works, dont give up on me, I have gone through so much to get where I am now, and am working hard at this stuff.

PM - I don't want to date, AT ALL. I am married right now, and that means I am commited to that until I get D. I made a HUGE mistake by contacting OM. BTW, watched your H vid on Prodigal Son, very interesting site, I saw it off Mimi's thread I think. I was trying to find an answer to why WS take OW to the same special places you and your H went, then got to your vid somehow. Any answers peeps have on that would be good! I do know better your right, I just am not in the mind of thinking I deserve better, obviously or I wouldnt be giving a second glance to these men. That I am working on. Not sure how to get there yet.

Mr & Mrs W - thanks for your posts guys. I am going to stick around here ofcourse, this place is great (well bittersweet for me at the moment!). I can take the 2 x 4s I wouldn't have been honest and stayed here otherwise. I read your thread Mrs W, and you took some pretty serious 2 x 4 s too!! Congrats to you both, you have come a long way. What breaks my heart though when i read your stories is that your H was willing to stick around and work things through. 3 weeks after my A started with OM, I knew it was WRONG WRONG WRONG, and I went totally off him, so I didn't get the withdrawal but whenever my H did something to reject me (usually OW involved) then I would pick up phone to OM. I need to figure that one out. Problem is, OM is like a booby prize, I wanted my M to work, H doesn't, I seek solace in OM, bad cycle that needs to stop which I am done with. AT LAST, its sefl destructive and I feel worse. I did have 4 months of NC and it wasn't hard at all.

Bubbles - Thanks for your post, hit right on the issue as usual. Yes I have man issues, spent quite a lot of time thinking about that and thats what has made me quite upset the last couple of days. Complete lack of male role model, father who serially cheated and hit my mother and my sisters (I was too young) and use to cry on my shoulder at a young age about losing his family, step dad who left his wife/family to be with my mother and had no interest in us, first boyfriend who cheated on me and caught and STD.. but I do have a great brother who is FANTASTIC he emigrated to Perth. boo! Love him. I also have bonded with my Dad in the last few years. More work needed in this area frown Believe me I am happy to put the work in, I just want to get on with it. I have good peoeple around me who I can speak to GFs and sisters mom, , but before I had MB I went to them all the time, and I am trying to show my friends and family I am strong and them not to worry about me, and I don;t want to appear selfish that I am talking about my situation all the time.

Wildhorses - yes many wonderful people posting, its great. I really am so lucky to have found this iste, this time last year I was a wreck couldn;t function, sleep had no perspective on things... This place has me so grounded. I like the fact that I can come here and get the truth, yes sometimes it hurts I don't like to accept that the fact that people I think I can trust dont have my best interests at heart. At this rate I will have no one left!! Thanks for telling your story it explains why it is important to hear the truth.

Harmony.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 11/11/10 10:24 PM
Harmony, My advice to you right now is to confide in those GFs. Let them to be a shoulder for you to cry on. I am sure you have been there for them. Also, when it gets too much for them to take, you can come on here and get some extra support. You don't need to be strong for anyone. You WILL be strong, with some more NC with your WH and OM.

Glad you are doing okay. Okay is better than bad. That's what I said for months. Today, I actually told a customer that I was "Fine" and I realized that I hadn't said that in over a year. That was HUGE. It will be like that for you too. Just listen to these great folks and stay DARK.
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Hi Harmony.
You seem like a reasonable person.
I hope the following helps you ...

Quote
OH and you mentioned OM, OK there is no point lying on this site. I sent him an email, told him what was going on, and he called me, it felt really good, we just chatted for about 1hour and half as friends.

Of course it felt good.
He stroked your ego.



Quote
I told him what has been happening, and he said he was sorry that things had not worked out, that when I sent him the NC letter, he really hoped that we would work through it.

You shared personal, intimate information with a man who is not your husband.


Quote
I told him some of what went on,

Allow me to translate .... you made your husband look his worst, so you could look your best.

Quote
and he said I deserved better

You have not earned "better".
Few of us get what we deserve.
Forget about "deserve".
Deserve is for those who feel entitled to something, often without them making any difficult effort.

OM is a putz for saying this.
You are WRONG for discussing your husband's shortcomings with OM.
How bad is that?
REALLY BAD


Quote
and that the way my H was dealing with my infidelity was not normal.

Spoken like a true putz.


Quote
He said that there will be someone out there for me, who would treat me better and care for me and that I would be better off in the long run.

Stroking your ego.
Making you feel like you "deserve" some magical love which will require no effort on your part.

PUTZ


Quote
He also apologised for starting this mess off, and that he has learnt a lot from it.

Not enough, apparently. MrRollieEyes


Quote
I don't know, I am just very untrusting of anyone at the moment, like JL said he is encased in a man who sleeps with a married woman.

Look in the mirror Harmony.
Everything OM is, you see reflected in a mirror.
Do not trust yourself.

Quote
I know I am going to get lots of 2 x 4's but he is a friend to me.

He strokes your ego.
He encourages you to feel entitled and deserving.
He offers nothing to help you improve your OWN core values and moral compass.

He helps you demonize your HUSBAND.
Which takes the focus off of your culpability.
Some "friend".
PUTZY OM



Quote
I know that he is the kind of person that I could pick up the phone at whatever time and we would be ok.

Because he lacks boundaries of propriety, as do you.

Well?


Yeah I get you Pepper, totally. I really don't want to even go into it anymore, he is just history, thats all i can say. No more phone calls/emails whatever. I don't even have to think about it, somewhere built into my sub concious is to never go anywhere near someone who is M, so what does that say about him. Its just not a good trait is it...so there is a big flaw a big red flag and lord knows I have ignored them in the past with others but not now. He loves to demonise my H, and so do I at times, maybe it just makes the whole process easier and self protection. Thanks for your post and yes it is REALLY BAD, it feels bloody awful.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Harmony,

You said
Quote
Yes I know Mrs V. My taker coming out in full force. I will do better, I was just lonely and went to someone who I know wanted me. I am annoyed at myself and am not going to let it happen again.

I have been getting loads of good advice on this site and I will not ruin all the good work. I had to post it though as I knew it was a bad move.

Thanks for the 2 x 4 It needed to happen.

I suppose I am in land confusion, I don't even know if I want to save my M anymore, as I can't make my H into something he is not.


So how are those boundaries and their protection coming? It seems to me there are a few holes in them. If you want to talk to someone who cares you could talk to your Mom or even your Dad. OR...You could talk to SR. This might have eluded you but SR cares very much about you and your recovery into life. Many of us do, and we are very disappointed in what you have done. I will say that it isn't unheard of, but we always hope that the WS finally "gets it" and sees the OM/OW for what they are, self-pleasing and selfish.

Harmony, you have a decision to make regarding your H and your marriage. You are now seeing that apparently you married your Dad, or is it that you carry some of your father's previous lack of regard for the institution of marriage. I have not heard much about your step-Dad, but it would seem he is a much better male figure for you to consider in your future. As for needing a male in your life, people will say "you do not." I will say yes you do...IF you find the correct male. Just any old anatomically correct human will not do.

Harmony, what are your goals in life? I mean really what are they? And next, how are you proceeding to acheive them? What is your plan? You need one you know, sitting their hoping and wishing is not going to do it other than remind you of an old rock song by Dusty Springfield, OOPS, you are too young to recall that one.

Harmony, sit down and think about your boundaries, think about where the hole really is. Think about where you want to be, and the type of person you want to be. What are your goals? You have a lot of work to do.

Get with it girl.

God Bless,

JL


OK can I have another 2 days to think on this one?!! You know I am already thinking about this, but its late and I have an early flight tomorrow so perfect time to mull this one over.

Ill be honest (OH GOD) I am missing my H a lot right now. He came to the house yesterday whilst I was out to pick up post. I don't even know why I miss him, he has treated me so poorly, I think I have spent too much time reading success story threads about WH where the fog lifts and they come back with tail between the legs. I read Mimis thread and Mortarmans, and probably given me some kind of false hope. However, someplace in my heart is telling me that he will do this, but my head is telling me another. I am trying to self protect as I am frightened that somehow I will hear word that he has MOVED on, and I am still stuck.

Thats where I am right now, I am quite sad and a bit lifeless. Trying to move forward but not really getting anywhere just yet. I suppose it takes time, I am doing all the right actions, making plans getting out, being sociable, but am waiting for some sign that he is hurting.

Back for more when I have though this one through.
Dusty Springfield - I just don't know what to do with myself? OR I only want to be with you?
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I suppose tough love works, dont give up on me, I have gone through so much to get where I am now, and am working hard at this stuff.


hurray

We all want the best for your harmony even me laugh ok??
Originally Posted by harmony2010
Thats where I am right now, I am quite sad and a bit lifeless. Trying to move forward but not really getting anywhere just yet.

Give yourself permission to be still. Accept that is where you are. Decide to stop being frantic. Just be still for a bit, OK?

When you keep trying to move forward when are aren't ready, you are avoiding feeling the things you need to feel because you want to replace them with good feelings.

This does not work. Please trust me.

Just let the feelings come -- they come in waves, and then they retreat. And they do retreat. It seems like the wave will take you out with it, but it won't, and as you become more grounded in your truth of who you are and what you want, the waves still come but they no longer threaten to take you with them when they go out.

There is very little you need to decide right now besides who you surround yourself with. Everything else can wait.

Glad your back on track harmony,

I posted to someone yesterday about keeping a journal reguarding thoughts, feelings and the emotional state you find yourself in daily.

Its a very useful tool for anybody, but especially those who are at an impass as to where thier life is going, and how they got where they are.

We all have blind spots, all of us, a weakness that we must learn to cope with in a healthy way. Some of learn early and the wall, (boundary), that we put up to protect ourselves, from ourselves, gets built and we accept it as a part of living.

Its funny how many people who have forgotten when they learned those lessons they were also hurt, afraid, scared and were racked with guilt and confusion that led to denial and desparate repeating of bad decisions....well ..you get my point.

Many people learn when they are children from adults who really care about them, and the practices the have to adopt to deal with thier emotional issues become habits after they work at them awhile making mistakes, getting burned and discplined and taught by there parental figures, until the habits are natural.

But then comes to some the assumption and arrogance that they were not taught those things by someone who took the time and sacrifice to love them, and they start to judge others who did not have that benifet. Well..they are only fooling themselves aren't they? They weren't tough and gifted, they were blessed, and humility and openess had much more to do with there boundaries than their own special abilities they now presume to possess naturally. They just forgot that at some point they trusted the right person.

Some of us are thankful for the people who helped us and pass on what we know graceously as a free gift as it should be. Some people sell it with the price that they must be looked at with awe like they never had to learn and grow and that they were born with all-knowledge. Some use others weaknesses to manipulate and put themselves above others to use them. The first although not perfect people are secure. The last are still fearful that someone will find out they are really weak and frail as they sometimes even think they can fool others if they can believe thier own bu11crap.

As you read and learn here I want to encourage you that you are not any less of a person because you screwed up. Thats what us humans do. When its bad we tell it like it is because the truth will not hurt you as much as more desception will, and it would be decieving to just tell you its OK, there are no consequences, especially if your in a bad place making bad decisions.

When we get to a certain age most of us have learned to dodge certain bullits but sometimes assume we are ready for anything because , "well, we should be shouldn't we?" The problem is that many times we are not, and get involved with people for all the wrong reasons that feel so right at the moment. What is really sad is when its with the wrong people too.

Then we have to look at ourselves again and realize our triggers, our drives, our makeup thru introspection and reason. It doesn't seem fair, we want it to be different, but it is exactly fair because the lessons we learn were allways needed for us in the situation we now are in, and we are in that situation, and the only way to beat it is to go through it.


I wanted to ask you again if you had an IC? I agree you should talk and spend time with you GFs and your Moms sister, that sounds wonderful, but you allready said you were somewhat embarrased to be to needy to them and because you are a professional don't you think they could help you as you can others in your profession? Also there is no need to feel guilty with a professional and they could be capable way beyond your GFs. You need to start looking because the right one for you might be hard to find, even if you can afford the best.

Slowly I have been able to piece your story together as it pertains to your Mom and Dad. The last bit that I suspected hit home today when I read about how Mom and stepdad got together. So I don't wanna dis both your parents, I know you are protective of them, as you are of everyone you love, but I understand more about what triggers you and why you are a "fixer" Much of what you needed to learn about protecting yourself was denied you as a child, and you assume guilt to some degree naturally because others let it be that way.

I am not a professional counselor, but I know about the effects of unrealistic guilt placed upon a child and how it messes with you. I suggest you see someone about that professionally, and as to your healing and growth here, come to grips with the effects your childhood has made on you, so you can recognize those triggers Harmony, and understand what draws you into these relationships.

I pray you can see how awesome of a young lady you are and accept that you have to stop jumping ship on yourself.

Please keep posting and take this time for some unashamed digging into yourself at the speed you can handle. God isn't finished with you yet, and He knows how important you are even when you don't, and you are worth ever second . LIke from these angels here.

Slow down, breathe, listen, read, and learn. Believe me, you will find it a priveledge soon enough, don't hurt yourself again by thinking you can't do better that OM and slipping backwards like that. Come here and post and we will help you be strong. You can bet the bank on that.
Originally Posted by seekingbalance
When you keep trying to move forward when are aren't ready, you are avoiding feeling the things you need to feel because you want to replace them with good feelings.

This does not work. Please trust me.

Just let the feelings come -- they come in waves, and then they retreat. And they do retreat. It seems like the wave will take you out with it, but it won't, and as you become more grounded in your truth of who you are and what you want, the waves still come but they no longer threaten to take you with them when they go out.

There is very little you need to decide right now besides who you surround yourself with. Everything else can wait.

So true Seeking, very wise, thanks for this, I need to remind myself of that also.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Dusty Springfield - I just don't know what to do with myself? OR I only want to be with you?

Wishin and hoping by Dusty Springfield. Good tune.

The question you need to ask is do you miss your H, or do you miss being close to someone, sharing with someone, feeling comfort being with someone?

You made the comment about only seeing the good in people, and yet you see the bad in your Dad, your step Dad, and your exBF, right?

Here is the trick from my point of view, you look for their core values, yep their boundaries and you see if they have them, and how they protect them. You pick men this way in my mind. Do their values match their actions.

What make people special in my mind is not that they have flaws, but how they overcome those flaws, which means do they see their flaws. This coupled with the idea of boundaries and how we address them, is what determines good people from less desirable people.

Your H overcame (I presume) his drug issues, but he did not overcome the mindset that led to it. Given your history with your father, and step-Dad, you were willing forgive your H's past foibles, but you did not examine his boundaries and how he addressed his weaknesses.

This gets easier for you to do as you address your flaws, your boundaries, and how you much effort you will put in to protect them. As you do this I believe you will be better equipped to find a man to share your life with and rear children with, but it takes you understanding yourself, your boundaries, your needs and your goals for life.

Hence all of the preaching about boundaries etc.

Hope you have a good trip.

JL
Originally Posted by SapphireReturns
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I suppose tough love works, dont give up on me, I have gone through so much to get where I am now, and am working hard at this stuff.


hurray

We all want the best for your harmony even me laugh ok??


Yes I know you care, thanks SR, tough times thats all smile
Oh God help!

I came home from business trip, was dashing around getting ready for dinner/drinks with GF and in walks H! Usually he has come to the house when I am out, not when he can see my car on the drive. The last time he did that was when he was drunk.

I already notice that he has been in during the day already to pick up post whilst I have been out, so not sure why he had to come back again.

I completely ignore him whilst he is sat in the office, he has locked the door behind him too. I carry on getting ready ignoring the fact he is in the house, he is there for about 30 mins.

Maybe is sat there waiting for me to go to him but I completely ignore him. Anyway my friend pulls up outside, waiting for me in the taxi, he sees the taxi and leaves the house just before me and I don't even see him.

Then I am a bit annoyed as I am meeting my GF looking forward to seeeing her and am all flustered. He certainly manages to time it well!

I am sat with my GF in the bar having some wine and snacks and my H drives past in his truck and looks right through the window! Then 30 mins later he does it again! Making sure that I see him. What is going on? Is this him cracking?

I was so strong I didn't buckle or break Plan B, I have you guys and this place to thank for that. smile I just acted competely indifferent.

He is acting very strange, can anyone make any sense of it?
Yes Harmony,

He is checking on you. Fine for him to cheat, not fine for you to cheat. You were with GF and he had to check to see if you and Gf were picking up some guys.

Pretty simple really. This will change and end when you decide to do it, not before. If he wanted to speak with you he would have but he did not.

You need to really think about your future and how much longer you want to remain in this game.

JL
God I love this place, so true.

It is so frustrating, why does he want to do that? Why not let me be? Why not speak up if he is hurting and missing me?

I am so proud of myself when he came to the house I just got on with what I was doing and ignored him! Beforehand I would have fuss, fuss, fussed him.

I cant put up with this any longer, time to turn up the heat and move on.
Originally Posted by Haromony2010
Why not speak up if he is hurting and missing me his possession.

Lock the doors.

It is Friday night and all and he might have a few and decide he wants to have a chat about you ignoring him and then going out and having a nice evening.

There are a lot of ways his mind could spin the evening.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 11/12/10 11:49 PM
Exactly what JL has said.

Also, think about how YOU feel about it.

What happened when you saw him drive past? How did you know he drove past again? Why didn't you leave when he drove past the first time?

We told you that he would escalate. You are being so helpful and he has started STALKING you. Is there anywhere you can stay for a while.

Also, him always coming into the house, YOUR house needs to stop. IS there anyway you can stop that? He is getting his home fix. He is getting his Harmony fix. In Plan B, you are supposed to cut off ALL EN meeting. See, you can tell when he has been home. I bet you even take comfort in it sometimes. I can even wager that if he didn't come "home" for a few weeks, and you didn't see him, you would feel full on withdrawal.

I know that you are going to say that there is this and that and that is why you can't do it. There is ALWAYS a way. There is the easy way, a harder way, and the right way. You CAN do this.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Yes Harmony,

He is checking on you. Fine for him to cheat, not fine for you to cheat. You were with GF and he had to check to see if you and Gf were picking up some guys.


JL


Just to note, there were no guys everytime my H drove past just me and my GF having dinner. I sense more to come this weekend, something has kicked into him, he knows I am serious.
Originally Posted by seekingbalance
Originally Posted by Haromony2010
Why not speak up if he is hurting and missing me his possession.

Lock the doors.

It is Friday night and all and he might have a few and decide he wants to have a chat about you ignoring him and then going out and having a nice evening.

There are a lot of ways his mind could spin the evening.


Doors are locked, there is no way he is getting in. I think you could be right. I am so tired as I have had a long day, that hopefully I will pass out and if he does come round I wont hear a thing.
Originally Posted by Scotland
What happened when you saw him drive past? How did you know he drove past again? Why didn't you leave when he drove past the first time?


Hiya Scotland

I was sat by the window, and he stopped so I would see him, there was no one in the car with him. I thought he may be heading to the bar, and then didn;t think anything of it until he did it again.



Originally Posted by Scotland
We told you that he would escalate. You are being so helpful and he has started STALKING you. Is there anywhere you can stay for a while.


Yes good point, there are places I can stay but I feel being at home keeps me grounded, I am worried if I go anywhere I won't feel as in control as I do at the moment. Will think serious about this.

Originally Posted by Scotland
Also, him always coming into the house, YOUR house needs to stop. IS there anyway you can stop that? He is getting his home fix. He is getting his Harmony fix. In Plan B, you are supposed to cut off ALL EN meeting. See, you can tell when he has been home. I bet you even take comfort in it sometimes. I can even wager that if he didn't come "home" for a few weeks, and you didn't see him, you would feel full on withdrawal.

I was going to pose this as a question on my thread, before tonight happened. I have been thinking about this. I did mention to SH about changing the locks so H could not get in at all, SH said not to do this for the moment. However, I could lock the front door from the inside and go out the back door so H could not get in the house. Worried this will fire him up as I feel at the moment, him having access to the house allows him to check up on me and let me know he is 'around'.

Originally Posted by Scotland
I bet you even take comfort in it sometimes. I can even wager that if he didn't come "home" for a few weeks, and you didn't see him, you would feel full on withdrawal.


Annoyingly so I did take comfort. If he didn't come home for a few weeks I would be in full on withdrawal, I started to even go through it the last couple of days. frown

Good post Scotland.
Well have that police # handy and don't be afraid to use it. Its possible he will test you this weekend.

JL and scotty allready have said what I feel also about this sitch....


Pray that you stay safe..

Be sure to post tommoroww
Sounds like you need new locks ;P
Time to lock him out. The time has passed for you to allow him to be in there without you and be there then...when you arrive home.

Check with an attorney and get all the locks changed.
Hey Harmony,

What do you do for a living? Just small talk really, I am syncing my new 3g my kids gave me for my Bday so I had some time to kill.

Its funny, I used to work AT&T as a data tech back in the late 80s, B4 the internet commercialization in the 90s. Lol. Back then I was a gifted Tech who got hired as one of the most qualified on the east coast. I just could pick up things quikly really, if I had any gift it was an empty mind..lol. But,(not supposed to start a sentence with a but am i?), but then I had a terminal and a modem at home and could call into the main comp so I could....look at a black screen with green letters, and run small programs, I wouldn't call it very special.

When they gave us the ability to make our own homepage in 1995 I jumped right in and made one with the app they gave us from the ISP, and it was cool then, but that was 15 years ago. Since then, my kids can show me stuff, I didn't stay in the field really and if you don't use it, you lose it and well, I really only dabble now and fix/build my own PCs out of practical need, not because I am into it like others are.

During them growing up, my children asked me how to do stuff or to set stuff up for them, and I did it or taught them. Now my 24 year old sells Iphones and manages an AT&T store, and my 19 year old knows Photoshop way more than I ever cared to learn. Ah how sweet is it when the student surpasses the teacher.

I was one of those guys who would read about all the cool things you could do with a gadget, and then of course, we only do three things with it, lol, then of course it becomes outdated. Like VCRS, and you gotta read the new instructions on the new gadget.

Well as you probably guessed this is just a bunch of junk Im talking about and has nothing really to do with your sitch. Just thought I would not be really heavy for a couple of paragraphs, been a tough week here for you. But I can't resist talking a bit about whats happening now with your WH, so here goes...

First, I want to ask you to get the locks changed. I would prefer that that advice came from Dr. Harley, but he had different advice. From what I have heard you say, WH seems like he might become dangerous to himself or others. Did you paint a different picture for Dr. H about him? Did you exclude information that we have? Because this is his site and we are here because we support and respect his work, I hesitate to advise you anything that goes against his advice. I would rather err on the side of caution though and guess that Dr H does not have a clear picture of what is going on with your Hs head. Harmony, I would blame you for that if my guess is right and you were protecting H like it seems you have a tendency to do, if you ommitted or glossed over what has been happening. Been there, done that, and its not the right thing to do when you seeking help.

So here is another guess Harmony, based on life experience, what I know about you from this site, and what little history of people in your life that you have revealed here.

You have all the normal drives a woman has towards relationship, but try to make up for the shortcomings of others you have been close to. Because inside you, there is desire to be close to everybody and help them, a nurturing drive. Thats a wonderful quality BTW, but many times our strengths can also be our weakness, and that is one place you need to work on in your boundary work, where do you draw the line? Only after you yourself had done something as despicable as have an affair on your husband did you seek help, and like many times in your life your habit of looking for a way to fix the situation by changing yourself and giving more, you came here for help in doing that.

See, that inner quality brought you here, only after you saw how you broke down, and you knew better than to act like that. That fear served you well.

Now its time for you to face the fact that in that unbalanced behavior, the one where you just keep being nice until people crap on you and inside you react and throw your hands up and do what your emotions tell you, is dangerous for you and anyone around you. I hope you understand what I am telling you and I am communicating it right. I am going through this to help you understand that the problem as it affects you and your relationships is not something you can ignore if you want them to be healthy.

I think its entirely possible you see how this effects you, and maybe you don't. I am talking about the reactions, triggers, and drives that influence you, and the possible loss of control you feel. I am talking about the helplessness you felt as a child, how you dealt with it then, and how it effects your life now.

When children get scared, especially when thier desire is to be loved by the most important authority figures in thier life, thier parents, they respond in many different ways. There is no cut and dry, exact science to it, but there is a simple way to understand it, basically, its fight or flight, but its panic and reaction when they are young, because thier brain has not developed enough yet to deal with the crazy stuff they are going through, and the survival instinct takes over.

So they think and act in whatever way makes them feel safe. Kids need thier parents and they also mimic what they do and that is normal. When they realize that one or the other has problems they will not feel safe if they can't play the problem down in the mind and adjust themselves to acceptance. Sometimes they accept very poor treatment,(to put it mildly), only to internalize guilt and responsibility that they should never have owned. Thier reactions can range from trying to fix whatever problems they percieve,(fight), to running away, (flight). Sometimes, they accept these roles forced upon them, and continue to reenact them thoughout thier lives, even seeking the situations they have suffered in as children, because they are so familiar to them, and we tend to be creatures of habit.

You mentioned that you idealized your Dad in your young life. I believe you loved him and missed him like most kids do. You havn't mentioned how your relationship with stepdad was but you did mention that he left his wife for your mom. It sounds to me like you also go to her sister and find her a source of support and don't see your Mom as a good source. These things made me think.

This is what my guess is and what I am believing right now about what happened. If I am right then it makes sense in what I believe also how and why your choices in men have come about, how you treat them, and what you expect to be treated like, and what you think you deserve. It also might answer the question as to why you don't insist on being treated better, don't communicate that clearly, and leave so much up to chance and wishful thinking.

Your Dad was violent and your Mom had to seperate from him. We don't know why and if and what his progress was with his problem. Also we don't know about the circumstances your parents went through, what got them together, what attractions they had for each other, or how balanced and mature they were when they first married.

We do know it was hard on the children, and Mom was the only source of explaination for you kids. Also it is obviuos you had a hard time accepting the rejection of your Dad by your Mom. Heck thats normal, Children need to look up to thier parents, especially a young girl to her daddy. Whatever reasons Mom told you, tainted by her own perception, probably made the reasons she had to leave him bring more into the front of your mind how important a good Dad is, and so it started.

As a young girl you felt that fear of abandonment, and you could not accept that Dad didn't love you, so emotionally you accepted that treatment as normal. At least for you anyway, because to reject him would not work with a nurturing nature and that is not love is it? Children get scarred with rejection, they seem to know it feels the same as death and fear it. Children are smart in that way.

So does it all boil down to Daddy issues? Well no, but it probably boils down to authority issues, and the authority of love.

There is also maybe the way your Mom dealt with the divorce also. What your relationship with your stepdad was too. They were now the people who would bring you up and mold your boundaries for you. What kind of examples were they for you? Stepdad left his marriage to be with your Mom. Your Mom was seeing and accepting a married mans attention even if they didn't have a PA. How messed up was her thinking at that time?

She may have been kind to you children, and tell you to love your Dad, and that your Dad loved you, but did she ever explain why she was willing to break up a marriage or accept the affections of a married man? Was she ever able to figure out herself how to survive without a guy in her life?

What was her example of what a man should be? How desparate to be with someone was she? What defines her identity?


MB works when people do, accually perform the actions, that are laid out in the policies of it. All these things I am discussing about your parents is something that should be brought up with an IC. If it was a concern brought up between you and your H while you were working on you marriage while you were discussing DJs,IB, Lovebusters while using the policy of radical honesty whithin and intimate disscussion you would be having a marrige. One that works because you both work at it. It would help you and eventually free you from triggers that drive you to the bad choices in the character of people.

This forum disscusses and supports marriage and the people who want them to be all that they can and were designed to be. So when someone makes really bad desicions the 2X4s come out quikly. The behavior is called for what it is and what it produces in the union of two people. It ussually is defined as right and wrong, and that is a blessing to many because how it started and all the reasons it was manifested does not help the marraige. The goal is for it to stop because its unhealthy for either party. The goal is to point out the behaviuor, not to justify it. If someone is confused as to why they do something and they need to identify thier behaviour, and get help in eliminating it, Its best left up to a competent counsellor. Dr H can identify problems that will effect marriage and realationships. He could also probably be a counselor that can help work through peoples behavior like you WHs and maybe even other people we know. But his talent and job is marriage couseling. You need IC to learn what makes you tick. Its time you were set free from old habits and mindsets that bring you pain. Let people help you Harmony, there are plenty of them that are willing and won't let you down.


Your a tough nut to crack, protecting all these people who have set bad examples and then reacting to being hurt by people with poor character. I really don't know for sure if you just don't know your worth more than that or if it has become so comfortable for you, or a combination of both.

Many of the questions I have asked you have not responded to. I felt it was probably because I make such long posts, and they are full of different issues, but sometimes I think you avoid them because they go to deep. Again issues for IC, which is another important question I asked.

Getting the crap knocked out of you and being the suffering sweet person doesn't get you any respect from others, and getting outragoeusly rebelious and emotional as you cave to the treatment by others will only be the other side of the rollercoaster as you have learned.

I don't want what has hurt you to twist you up inside anymore. Take your time, search yourself, take a breath, and don't give up. Your worth all the time in the world to take care of yourself. Never let anyone convince you differently. There is no hurry. You are more than your bio-clock, and your drive to heal can serve many. How about you get to that?

Ok, four hours for this post, Gotta go and sleep, have an engine to fix tommorow, long way from a a data tech with a nice clean shirt and a company car huh? Lol.


Hi Guys

Just popping in to say thanks for all your support last night, could not believe how quick I got responses just when I needed them.

Constant - so much to say on your post, your right it is difficult to go there and make sense of it all. I have avoided your q's. I suppose I don't want my life now to be affected by what happened then, so just want to concentrate on the here and now. However, I think your right, it is something that may have to happen. There is A LOT that went on, which is kind of buried and many memory blocks. I will respond more in full shortly.

I am off to meet up with a GF at a spa hotel just outside London, have one of those pamper weekends planned. Just what the doctor ordered!

Back tomorrow, have a lovely weekend everyone.

BTW - as I was writing this message, my H phoned. I ignored his call, then he sent a text message saying

"Please do not under any circumstances let mark back into our house. Cheers"

Mark is the guy that fitted the inside lock and has done other bits and pieces of fixing things in the house.

What is he annoyed about? It must be the lock...

Harmony.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Constant - so much to say on your post, your right it is difficult to go there and make sense of it all. I have avoided your q's. I suppose I don't want my life now to be affected by what happened then, so just want to concentrate on the here and now. However, I think your right, it is something that may have to happen. There is A LOT that went on, which is kind of buried and many memory blocks. I will respond more in full shortly...

I don't want to know all the past Harmony, and embararass you, and it we/I probably don't need to. But it would be helpful for a Professional IC to help identify stuff if they did. We can help when it comes to..."My Dad was a womanizer, and Step dad had,(pick one), issues" . At that level, the details are not out there to be embarrassed. But we see there must be issues, and it will be helpful if we knew you had them identified.

On the other hand, I would probably not want to ever tell anybody my real identity because I have talked about embarassing things on this board myself. The total aynonomous nature of this place is insulating and makes it easier to discuss personal matters with people that, as you know, are not professionals, but might be friends. Most post here in friendship and caring, but all of them are here to learn.

1.Proverbs 1:5
A wise man will hear and increase in learning,And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel,
Proverbs 1:4-6 (in Context)

2.Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.
Proverbs 12:14-16 (in Context)

3.Proverbs 19:20
Listen to counsel and accept discipline,That you may be wise the rest of your days.
Proverbs 19:19-21 (in Context)

4.Proverbs 24:6
For by wise guidance you will wage war,And in abundance of counselors there is victory.
Proverbs 24:5-7 (in Context)



The last one is about fighting for yourself too. We all have to fight, and the battle is not allways waged in desparation and violence.


Truth is though, we have a presence here also, as you know getting a public cyber thrashing is embarassing and painful, so some things are best left to professional ICs, good ones mind you, and if you had known this, you would have responded to it alleady, see, no crystal ball..

So to protect you and your relationships here on the forum, and to see you do and feel better, some things might be better identified through personal counselling. Of course, the advice from friends is allways helpful done in the spirit, but a professional, who you "click with" BTW, will remain objective. As to marriage issues here, no holds barred, let it all out, here come the 2X4s. We will tell you what we see and how to help yourself.


I wouldn't want you to not come here because it feels like work all the time either. Once we let the cat out of the bag, and expose our soft underbelly to everyone, tell them our personal fears and past or present issues we can become severly self conscious and embarrased. Especially when we have been let down before, and/or mistreated

... As in our feelings ignored, or minimalized, by those whom were supposed to love us..


Use wisdom in what you post here that is personal and embarrassing. But take the advice of a professional in that too.

Thanks for your response too, Have a great weekend.


Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 11/14/10 12:35 AM
Harmony, please change your phone numbers. And BTW, why did you read that message?
I know I shouldn't have read that message frown It is my work phone so I can't change the number but I could block it, its letting go though, I know I should do this for my own recovery.

I don't really know where he was coming from with the text? Was he annoyed because Mark had been in and added an inside lock, or does he think something is going on between us both? He will go MAD if I change the locks so he can't get in at all, I am nervous to do that.

I have got to stop letting H affect me, it knocked me off track a bit this weekend but I still got on with things.

I am going through such a mix of emotions. From missing my H to feeling angry with him. I just wish he could communicate with me, instead of coming to the house when I am in, wanting me to go to him. Not saying anything.

Its his birthday on Tuesday, it feels weird not doing anything with him. DO I get him a card or just stick to Plan B?

Harmony.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I just wish he could communicate with me, instead of coming to the house when I am in, wanting me to go to him. Not saying anything.

He's a guy.
He is communicating something to you ... NON verbally.
Think about it.
What is the non-verbal message he is sending?
Actions speak louder than words. Yanno?

Quote
Its his birthday on Tuesday, it feels weird not doing anything with him. DO I get him a card or just stick to Plan B?

Here is what I suggest.
This is a free message board opinion ... and worth every penny. Take it or leave it. smile
Write him a birthday card. A full-on love letter.
And hold onto it.
When Plan B ends, give it to him. (if appropriate at that time)
Originally Posted by Pepperband
He's a guy.
He is communicating something to you ... NON verbally.
Think about it.
What is the non-verbal message he is sending?
Actions speak louder than words. Yanno?


Hi Pepper

I would like to think that he is missing me, and still has feelings for me. Do you think I made a mistake in ignoring him? Can you shed any light on what he might be communicating?

Originally Posted by Pepperband
Here is what I suggest.
This is a free message board opinion ... and worth every penny. Take it or leave it. smile
Write him a birthday card. A full-on love letter.
And hold onto it.
When Plan B ends, give it to him. (if appropriate at that time)


Thats a great idea. I don't want him to ever think that I didn't want to contact him, just that it was part of the plan.

Thanks for your response!
Harmony, I've been reading backwards, and I've just realised that you are in London too.

Hasn't it been a lousy day here?
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hi Pepper

Hi back at ya !
Quote
I would like to think that he is missing me, and still has feelings for me.

That is one possibility.
"Feelings" can mean good/bad/loving/hating/pretty/ugly ... the whole spectrum.
But, for CERTAIN, he is communicating he has unfinished business with you.


Quote
Do you think I made a mistake in ignoring him?

No. Silly. You are in Plan B, are you not?


Quote
Can you shed any light on what he might be communicating?

Not really.
Not specifically.
Other than he is not in a state of indifference ... which is good.
He is in conflict with the separation, which is good.
(So are you, by the way hug )

And back to you ....

What are your personal core values you are determined to preserve and protect in the future ???
Name 2 or 3.



Hiya Sugarcane

I actually live down on the Southcoast, near Portsmouth but it has been really lousy here too!

I am up in London quite a bit, I went to Uni there and have a few friends up there and work there aswell.

Are you in central London?


Read this *link* to MB Basic Concept:


The 3 States of Mind In Marriage

Be sure you read all 4 parts.


Originally Posted by Pepperband
This is a free message board opinion ... and worth every penny farthing.
Originally Posted by Pepperband
That is one possibility.
"Feelings" can mean good/bad/loving/hating/pretty/ugly ... the whole spectrum.
But, for CERTAIN, he is communicating he has unfinished business with you.


I think he has been in a state of conflict for a long time now! Not sure what I can do to bring it to an end. NOthing?

Originally Posted by Pepperband
No. Silly. You are in Plan B, are you not?


LOL!! That made me chuckle.

Originally Posted by Pepperband
And back to you ....

What are your personal core values you are determined to preserve and protect in the future ???
Name 2 or 3.


Core values determined to protect....

1. Respect
2. Integrity
3. Honesty
4. Compassion

Can family be a core value?
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Are you in central London?
No; in a quiet little suburb near the M25. It's easy to get to Pompey from here. We go on holiday from there quite often!

The coasts must be wild this weekend.
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Are you in central London?
No; in a quiet little suburb near the M25. It's easy to get to Pompey from here. We go on holiday from there quite often!

The coasts must be wild this weekend.


Play up Pompey! Give me a wave when your next down here.

I am about 5 mins walk from the beach, I didn't get down there today but sometimes they close the road if it gets really windy!!
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I am about 5 mins walk from the beach
How lovely. Have you discovered the joys of running on the beach? I do this on holiday. I would probably run every day if I lived near a beach, as opposed to dragging myself round the park twice a week now.
[quote=Harmony2010..
Can family be a core value? [/quote] Made me think, No. Is is valueable? of course, but if you, your core values and respect don't come first, they will be ignored anyways, KWIM?

So she is talking about you Harmony, not other people.

I believe, correct me if im wrng Pep..
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Core values determined to protect....

1. Respect
2. Integrity
3. Honesty
4. Compassion

I think, integrity means I do what I know is the right thing. Even under difficult circumstances.

When I read where someone writes: "But, it's too hard." First of all, I read a whiney voice. MrRollieEyes I also read a person who is about to let their integrity slip away.


The dictionary defines integrity this way:

The quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness; the state of being whole and undivided


What does integrity mean to you?
It means not doing "bad" things, right?
Does it also mean doing brave things?
Does it also mean demonstrating your strengths to yourself?
Your strengths of conviction? (Not breaking Plan B out of weakness)
Are you aware that living with integrity can make you unpopular with some of your friends and family?
Are you aware that living with integrity does not mean you will get what you want?

Think about this.
It's easy to write "integrity" as a goal... but what does it mean to actually live with integrity?

All things have consequences. Including integrity.

But, what are the consequences of living without integrity?
Hmmmmmmm think



Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I think he has been in a state of conflict for a long time now! Not sure what I can do to bring it to an end. NOthing?

Read all of that link I previously posted on this thread.
The 4th part is where your answer lies.
But, you need to read the link to understand marriage better, not just your husband, but marriage.
Hi Pepper

Intergrity to me means, say what you do, do what you say! I think to live with intergrity shows that you are genuine and won't make any false promises.

For example, I will support you through this difficult time, and then actually DO IT.

Are you saying that intergrity is not a good core value or just getting me to think more about what it means?

Also, was it me who said about its too hard?

Yes it also means being brave and demonstrating those principles to myself.

I will be honest, the boundaries thing is really cool, I think about them a lot. It is interesting when I go out and am being sociable as you can quite easily pick up on those who have boundaries and those who are boundary free.

My brother for example, naturally is good with having boundaries. I guess some people just are.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I am about 5 mins walk from the beach
How lovely. Have you discovered the joys of running on the beach? I do this on holiday. I would probably run every day if I lived near a beach, as opposed to dragging myself round the park twice a week now.


Yes Sugarcane it is lovely! The best is in the Summer when I have been upto London for work on the train and back, come home put on my running shoes and run along the beach. I did the Great South run a couple of times, that was good fun.

Also, after been in an office all week a run along the beach sat morning is great. The sea air and excercise has really helped me through this process!
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Read this *link* to MB Basic Concept:


The 3 States of Mind In Marriage

Be sure you read all 4 parts.


Thanks for the link, I have read through it and agree that my H seems to be in conflict, and if I am in Plan B perhaps between conflict and withdrawal? I do genuinly feel angry at him, but would talk to him if he wasn't so foggy. Ofcourse I am in Plan B aswell.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hi Pepper

Intergrity to me means, say what you do, do what you say! I think to live with intergrity shows that you are genuine and won't make any false promises.

OK



Quote
For example, I will support you through this difficult time, and then actually DO IT.

You don't have children, do you?
My example comes from having been a mother to 2 now adult children.


I prefer to tell them (my kids) that I will support their good choices.

If you and I were friends in real life, I would not have supported your affair, which was a very difficult time for you. I would support YOU, but not your choices. If, by supporting YOU, I was forced to support your affair, I would not support you any longer. That is where MY integrity comes into play. My integrity requires I make tough choices sometimes.


If I were your husband's friend, I would only support his good choices as well.

See the difference? See how MY integrity can have consequences for me?

Back to my kids.
Our son was just WRONG in an interaction/altercation he had with our daughter's boyfriend. Our son was ANGRY with me (my H and I both) that I did not "support him" because he was, after all. "family".
But, our son's behavior was flat out WRONG. He made several bad choices and refused to back away from those bad choices.
I had to stop taking his calls for awhile, because it was making me ill.
Eventually our son came around. But it was very difficult for him to comprehend that his parents will not "support" his bad choices when he is wrong.

So, be careful what you promise to do.
Sometimes promises made can be very ethically tangled.



Quote
Are you saying that intergrity is not a good core value or just getting me to think more about what it means?

Getting you to think.

Quote
Also, was it me who said about its too hard?
rotflmao

No. But DID you say that?
Look, all of us are weak sometimes.
All of us have broken our word some time in our life.
What matters is that we learn and grow and demand better of ourselves.


Quote
Yes it also means being brave and demonstrating those principles to myself.

See how it works.
You were BRAVE by coming back to the forum after taking all the lumps.
That return, although not exactly triumphant, was an act of YOUR integrity.


Quote
I will be honest, the boundaries thing is really cool, I think about them a lot. It is interesting when I go out and am being sociable as you can quite easily pick up on those who have boundaries and those who are boundary free.

It's always easier to spot these things in other people.
Keep your critical eye also on yourself.
As should I.

Also, not sure how one can lead the other back into intimacy in our current situation?!! To me that would be my H extending an olive branch out to me to talk to me, and he has not done that frown
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Also, not sure how one can lead the other back into intimacy in our current situation?!! To me that would be my H extending an olive branch out to me to talk to me, and he has not done that frown

You can't.
Except, you can do the following:

You keep your side of the garden weeded.
You plant the seeds of forgiveness in your own heart.
You look at your remorse and decide what needs to change within yourself.
Examine your warts and blemishes and make appropriate improvements.
You write him that Birthday love letter.
You stop trash-talking him to anyone. ANYONE.
You stop fussing all the time and looking for "justice" or "fair" or measure past errors to decide which of you were "more wrong" than the other.

You become the healthiest, most serene YOU possible.
You become the beautiful soul who glows with grace and wisdom.

So that, should he offer an olive branch, he may be totally amazed by your transformation.


Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Also, not sure how one can lead the other back into intimacy in our current situation?!! To me that would be my H extending an olive branch out to me to talk to me, and he has not done that frown

You can't.
Except, you can do the following:

You keep your side of the garden weeded.
You plant the seeds of forgiveness in your own heart.
You look at your remorse and decide what needs to change within yourself.
Examine your warts and blemishes and make appropriate improvements.
You write him that Birthday love letter.
You stop trash-talking him to anyone. ANYONE.
You stop fussing all the time and looking for "justice" or "fair" or measure past errors to decide which of you were "more wrong" than the other.

You become the healthiest, most serene YOU possible.
You become the beautiful soul who glows with grace and wisdom.

So that, should he offer an olive branch, he may be totally amazed by your transformation.


That is such a cool post.

Thanks for the advice Pepper. I can stop trashing him to others, but I have been doing that frown Also, I have been looking for 'justice' or 'fair'. I guess its not to late to stop that?

I guess some of the way I am being is self protection, should he never offer an olive branch or that he gets a new GF.

Thank you , Harmony.
Plan B is Plan self-protection.
cool thanks Pepper.

I want to ask one last question, if I could. I am missing my H terribly right now, and wanted to know if there are any signs that he may get off the fence.

I need to have something, to hope for.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I need to have something, to hope for.

Here's something to hope for:

Originally Posted by pepperband
You keep your side of the garden weeded.
You plant the seeds of forgiveness in your own heart.
You look at your remorse and decide what needs to change within yourself.
Examine your warts and blemishes and make appropriate improvements.
You write him that Birthday love letter.
You stop trash-talking him to anyone. ANYONE.
You stop fussing all the time and looking for "justice" or "fair" or measure past errors to decide which of you were "more wrong" than the other.

You become the healthiest, most serene YOU possible.
You become the beautiful soul who glows with grace and wisdom.

So that, should he offer an olive branch, he may be totally amazed by your transformation.

Easiest post I ever wrote.
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Are you aware that living with integrity can make you unpopular with some of your friends and family?
Are you aware that living with integrity does not mean you will get what you want?..

Integrity, the quality of wholeness and soundness, many times comes with a price.

Think about it Harmony, What would it be to have wholeness and soundness in your life and character? Wouldn't it be a better life?

The facts are we don't get what we want just because we want it, asnd as we grow we realize what we want is not allways what we need.

Like JL quoted, "Children need what they want, Adults want what they need" That is what happens to us when we realize what we really need, because life has shown us what those things are. The emotional attachments we had to those things we wanted get washed away and replaced. Its part of the growing process.

What is the price for integrity? It depends on what your attached to that challanges it in you. A bad relationship, habit, fantasy, laziness, stubborness, selfishness, and sometimes fears we can't do without something that are lies we believe that keep us chained. Those things must be given up, to stand strong and whole.

Like someone said "If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything"
Think about that one too.

Im glad Pep is on here. Listen to her, she's awesome.
I'm loving the wisdom that is being shared with you right now. I'm learning some stuff too, things I haven't thought about... really... down deep. That's one of the cool things about MB. There is so much wisdom around here that we ALL can learn from.

Harmony, you are receiving a HUGE blessing right now. Hopefully you will take it to heart and keep it with you for the rest of your life.

Become this person:

Quote
You become the healthiest, most serene YOU possible.
You become the beautiful soul who glows with grace and wisdom.

I think you can.
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Harmony, you are receiving a HUGE blessing right now. Hopefully you will take it to heart and keep it with you for the rest of your life.

Become this person:

Quote
You become the healthiest, most serene YOU possible.
You become the beautiful soul who glows with grace and wisdom.

I think you can.


Thanks PM, I would like to think I can, I am really trying.

I have sunk to a bit of a low today and I am trying to haul myself out.

Cried when I woke up, and just feeling low.

H birthday tomorrow, and mine on Saturday. I am suppose to be going out with my GFs Sat night and all I really want to do is hide.

The actions with my Friday / Saturday has thrown me off guard. I ended up going to a bar Sat night with a friend who is desperate to meet men. I didn't want to go, but ended up just going along as I wasn't really thinking straight, it was awful. I wish I had just been assertive and said I don't want to go.

Then on Sunday was suppose to go over to my mothers to see her and my sister. I pulled out at the last minute and now I think they are all annoyed with me. I just was feeling down and wanted to be on my own. My mother sounded annoyed with me on the phone. I think maybe they are worried about me, and want to keep me involved.

Trying to haul myself out, will focus on work and go for a run later.

I am missing him terribly. The longer in Plan B, the more I feel he is slipping away. It has been 5 weeks since he left, I think that if he truly loved me he would have given an olive branch by now.

This is the first time I have felt like reaching out to him.
This whole process has made me realise how much I actually need to work on myself, which is kind of frightening! How did I actually make it this far?

On the other had is make me realise how flawed we all can be, just by observing those around me and that I am very lucky to have found this place.

I feel like I have been searching for this kind of guidance all my life.
Harmony,
Patience is the most important part right now, It's okay to miss him and the life you had, but you wouldn't want to go back to that and the way he treats you.
Right now like the others have said, work on you, keep yourself busy and running is a great thing as well.
There is a peacefulness about you now I think you are well on your way.....
Special days are hard I know, I think writing the letter on your hubby's B-Day and then holding it for him is a great idea, I know I would feel like I wanted to do something......
Look at your B-Day as a date you start Harmony's new life, the happy, peaceful one she has always wanted........another year older another year wiser........

I guess you could say I am having a really bad day the lowest since he has gone.

Thanks Jessi.

Just spoken to my mum and sis, they are disappointed that I didn't go yesterday that was all, it was my paranoia that they would be angry with me.

Spoke to my sis they are all having Christmas at hers, really not looking forward to that one. I have 2 sisters, both happily married with children and hey ho, me the sad singleton turns up having split up with her husband. I really dont want to go. I just want to get on a plane and fly somewhere else. My other sister is flying out to Mexico, for 2 weeks on Boxing Day so they will be all excited. I am happy for them, just a reminder of how i messed up.

Why is it when I talk to my sis (she is is very happy, and ofcourse I am happy for her) that I feel like such a loser.

Not looking forward to tomorrow, have written him the love letter, that he will probably never see.

Trying to climb out of this pit, but it all feels so bleak.

I really just want to get on a plane and fly away from all this.
Harmony,
I went through the Xmas season last year, my D-Day was Nov 23rd last year.
I went through the motions of the holidays, that's it, it was hard to watch everyone happy with their families as well. I was thinking, I'm 53 and my marriage was a mess........my husband had traded me in for a woman 10 years younger than me........it was bad and I was feeling sorry for myself.............Harmony that's all it was, I was feeling sorry for myself..........you have to be happy for everyone else, it gives you hope for the same someday............it is possible for you too........
Keep yourself very busy tomorrow, go to bed early...........just get through the day.....my husband's B-Day was 3 weeks after D-Day........it was tough, first time in 27 years I didn't do anything..........but I got through it just like you will.....
getting on the plane does sound like a great idea...........maybe someday soon you can actually do this..........getting away from everything renews us somewhat..............
Hang in there, one day at a time..............
Thanks Jessi

The tears have not stopped flowing today, it is quite overwhelming, I feel like I am going through some real grief.

GOing to drag myself out for a run, and hopefully that will help.

Good suggestions about tomorrow.

It just all feels a bit much what with my H birthday tomorrow and then my sis on the phone talking about Christmas, I think she was being a bit insensitive, or maybe me being too sensitive.
Sometimes I beat my bed up with a plastic bat to get my anger out laugh it always works! heh heh

Just keep going girl we know you can pull through it!
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I think that if he truly loved me he would have given an olive branch by now

Measuring again?


Quote
This is the first time I have felt like reaching out to him.

Have you figured THIS (above and below) into your measuring?

It was DAYS ago that you were on the phone trash-talking your husband.
Trash-talking your husband to THE OTHER MAN !!!!

Now, do you still want to "measure" whose love is real?

Harmony.
Harmony !

Quit spinning.
Start weeding YOUR side.
Your side is messy as hell.

I say "Thank God" your H is not - r e a d y - with that olive branch because YOU are still a mess.

It is a good thing your husband is reluctant.
You are NOT a serene woman with her chit together.

YOU need work.
An olive branch is not what you need.
twoxfour



God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.


Say this prayer hourly.
Accept that there are forces/circumstances/pressures working on your husband right now.
You, in your current state, would not be a beneficial force in his growth process.
You are too needy right now.
Have the courage to stand still and accept that growth takes time, patience, and care.
Apply time, patience and care to your own growth.
No one can do that growth for you.
In fact, having someone you "need" so much probably weakens you.

Can you see that?
You feel weak & needy ... don't collapse.
Be strong.
Be brave.
Wisdom is not yet yours.
Wisdom will not be yours until you slow down, stop spinning, and be still.

Go ahead and grieve.
There is wisdom in that grief.
Do not be afraid of grief.
It is a step towards wisdom.
Wow. A pentagon blast from Pepper!

Great advice.
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Harmony.
Harmony !


I know!
I know!

Originally Posted by Pepperband
You are NOT a serene woman with her chit together.

My chit is all over the place. I am bouncing the walls at the moment. I need to find my ying and yang.

Originally Posted by Pepperband
You are too needy right now.


I know how depressing. OK time to get my chit together, really, I am grown woman about to be 35 on Saturday (yuk) so perhaps I could start acting like one, instead of crying into my cornflakes over my WH/OM/fertility....

I am giving myself 2 x 4's now frown

OK I will start weeding my garden, I have been doing a little bit, but boy oh boy do I need this time on my own. I would like to refer to myself as damaged goods at the moment.

I have no idea where to start. I am doing lots of good things like eating well, excercising, working hard, spending time with friends and family ect..

I just need to find some peace, and like everyone says BE STILL.

I feel that I need to be doing SOMETHING all the time. I guess I just need to learn to chill.

On a plus note I have been doing some thinking on JLs post so more to report back later.

Ouch still hurting from that clang over the head.

Thanks Pepper.
Originally Posted by Pepperband
You feel weak & needy ... don't collapse.
Be strong.
Be brave.


I could feel myself going under, but to be honest something must be working because I AM NOT going to collapse.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I would like to refer to myself as damaged goods at the moment.

You're in transition. That's how I see it.


Quote
I have no idea where to start. I am doing lots of good things like eating well, excercising, working hard, spending time with friends and family ect..

Sounds to me like a very good start.

Quote
Ouch still hurting from that clang over the head.

As my DD21 says: "Whatevs" rotflmao

Plan something great for your birthday.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
This whole process has made me realise how much I actually need to work on myself, which is kind of frightening! How did I actually make it this far?...

Mark Twain said, something to this effect,

"When I was 16 I wondered how my father had survived this long not knowing anything, By the time I turned 30 I wondered how he had acomplished so much and where he got his wisdom"

Your not alone Harmony, I wonder why God chose to let me live with all the stupid things I did in youth, and how I still have been blessed with so many things.

We will go thru life learning allways, seize the oportunity at every turn, and value the lessons learned. There is a reason for this season in your life. Just hang in there.
If it doesn't rain it pours.

Went round my mums for dinner. I was a still a bit upset cause H birthday tomorrow, but cheered me up loads.

My SD came in and was really rude practically ignored me, interuppted me and did not looked pleased to see me. He then launched into this massive attack saying this was his house and he will do what he likes and that if we want to carry on the conversation then we should go in the other room. He also said that I was mourneful and dour and everyone thinks so cause he hears them talking about me.

Sorry I do not have much time for this man, I can't help it, I have tried so hard for my mothers sake. I have always been polite to him, but something just wanted to make me let him know that he wasn;t entitled to pass opinion on me or treat me disrespectfully by interupting me and ignoring me.

It ended up with me telling him where he could stick his judgements and who was he to judge. It felt good to be honest, I flet like I had a voice that I have never used and let him know that for someone who had no interest in me or my life, is not entitled to run me down.

Anyway I left my mum made some comment about her and I not falling out, I told her ofcourse not but won;t be treated like that. My mother then said, well he does it with me how do you think it makes me feel? (what ??!!) Gave her a kiss and left.

Then on the way home Step Mum phones to tell me Dad has gone back into hospital frown
Harmony,

Sorry to hear about all of this, but step back and look at the two marriages of your parents. Which one if either is working and why do you think that is? Could it be boundaries or the lack of them. It is clear your Mom and your SD don't have them, but think about the people who do.

As for turning 35 all I can say is: HappyBirthday You are still a child and have lots of growing to do. So relax, listen carefully to Pep and realize you are on a learning curve and you will be the better for it.

Your life is just beginning Harmony, realize that.

God Bless,

JL
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Your life is just beginning Harmony, realize that.

JL


Thanks JL, I hope so! I am trying to get things right. I said some things to my SD I maybe should not have said, for my mums sake. I was more annoyed that for someone who has never had any interest in my life, should feel it OK to pass judgement on me, I pretty much told him that and why maybe he was in no position to do so. Goodness!

Today has been a poor day, I am going to bed now as quite frankly I want to see that back of it.

Tomorrow will start fresh.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Today has been a poor day, I am going to bed now as quite frankly I want to see that back of it.

Tomorrow will start fresh.
That is a very good way to deal with bad days.
hug and a belated HappyBirthday to you.
Jeepers, can anything else happen at the moment?

Sister phoned me this morning to see if I was ok, or upset about the row (my mum had phoned her). I said to be honest sis that was 25 years overdue, and enough is enough. I then asked if my mum was ok, my sis said she was but realized that maybe it, between my SD and I. My sis said that my mum makes the best of being with my SD and that she is very fond of him. I told her that I have been polite and kept quiet for many years, but he overstepped the mark. My sis said that maybe with hindsight my mum might have done things differently. I then said to my sis why did she go straight from Dad to SD, why didn�t she have anytime on her own? (I have never really asked any questions about what happened back then?). My sis said she was very vulnerable (4 kids, rought relationship, no parents) and my SD was her security blanket.

Spoke to my Dad this morning who is resting after his blood transfusion, he has got a low blood count at the moment. He seems to be doing ok. He even chuckled on the phone, I told him not to lose his sense of humour. He asked how I was, I reassured him I am doing OK and please not to worry. He said I know your doing well, your sisters are telling me your getting on with things making plans and being strong. Well that certainly contradicts what my SD said, apparently I am dour and mournful. Next? Anyway the main thing is my Dad is doing OK and making the best of the situation.

Then I was chatting to my father, and I told him about my run in with my SD, he told me how he never respected him and how he could never respect a man who deserted his own wife and children to be with another mans wife. OMG! Then he proceeded to tell me how my SD got my mum preggas and she had a termination, do I really need to know all this? Then he asked if my mum was really happy with my SD, and I said I don�t know Dad and it is not for me to say, but I think she makes the best of things. My Dad then said well she could have been with me. I then said Dad but you have to remember you serially cheated on her? He said yes it was wrong but I never got involved with anyone??!!


Originally Posted by Just Learning
Sorry to hear about all of this, but step back and look at the two marriages of your parents. Which one if either is working and why do you think that is? Could it be boundaries or the lack of them. It is clear your Mom and your SD don't have them, but think about the people who do.

JL � you ask me how I view their marriages and which one is working? I would like them both to work as I want to know that my parents are in happy and secure marriages. My mum tells me how happy she is with my SD, but I am not so sure. I suppose all I can do is look and learn. Something rings true about the OM, you all tell me how a OM/OW who gets involved with a married person is selfish and has major character flaws. My SD? I don�t know I find it all a bit much, but I know the worst thing to come out of it was that I saw right through my SD since I was a little girl and have spent a long time been used as the blame for the lack of relationship there. I suppose my boundaries have seen that I am not at fault and given me some identity.

Why are you getting me to think about that? Is it so I can learn from them and try and do better? To be honest I find it quite disturbing, I just dont want all that happened then to affect my life now. I am more determined than ever to make it a success, just how.
I am frightened of implementing my boundaries, it seems to be causing chaos on my life. Although somewhere inside me it feels good and right. Am I doing ok here?
Quote
JL � you ask me how I view their marriages and which one is working? I would like them both to work as I want to know that my parents are in happy and secure marriages. My mum tells me how happy she is with my SD, but I am not so sure. I suppose all I can do is look and learn. Something rings true about the OM, you all tell me how a OM/OW who gets involved with a married person is selfish and has major character flaws. My SD? I don�t know I find it all a bit much, but I know the worst thing to come out of it was that I saw right through my SD since I was a little girl and have spent a long time been used as the blame for the lack of relationship there. I suppose my boundaries have seen that I am not at fault and given me some identity.

Why are you getting me to think about that? Is it so I can learn from them and try and do better? To be honest I find it quite disturbing, I just dont want all that happened then to affect my life now. I am more determined than ever to make it a success, just how.

Harmony, your parents' marital success, or lack thereof, is not material when it comes to your own. You aren't them, your life is not theirs. They made their choices, and you made yours. Do not be distracted by your parents' marital choices as it relates to yours. This is not productive.

It is instructive to see your parents' marital history as part of who they are. For example, do you suppose part of your SD's behaviors are the result of his inner guilt over his own infidelity? Looking at it like that may help you to look at him another way. Not a better way, mind you. But with more knowledge of his makeup.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
..Sorry to hear about all of this, but step back and look at the two marriages of your parents. Which one if either is working and why do you think that is? Could it be boundaries or the lack of them. It is clear your Mom and your SD don't have them, but think about the people who do...

Yes, I agree. You mentioned two sisters who you felt had good marriages, you also said other sisters got physically abused when you were children, and you were not because you were to young.

Not to get to complicated, but how do you know those other sisters have good marriages? What do they have that proves to you they are good? Husbands? Your Mom has one of those...Do they talk about what is good and do you see them in love?

See the door has opened for you now for some freedom, you just don't recognize it yet.
HappyBirthday Harmony.

JL made a comment on how you are still so young at 35. I agree, looking back, the real things didn't even come into focus strongly until I hit my thirties, even if earlier I did everything I knew was right to honor them in prior years..

There is a book used in judaiasm to teach, don't know what it is sorry, traditionally within thier culture, that they were not allowed to read until they were 30 years old. Why? because thier life experiences and maturity and probably the development of thier body and mind also would not comprehend it until that age.

Two things stick out to me about that. One is that we are allways learning and growing. The other is that we still have to deal with the fact that we have made decisions in the past based on poor information, that we will still have to deal with, because we are living allways with the results of our decisions and actions. Reguardless of our intentions, good or bad.

We are stuck with those results, and we choose to deal with that, or hide our heads in the sand.

So you, still with a long life and the possibility of all the blessings life has in it, are now in the position of making it the best it can be.

I think you are in the right place Harmony.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
..Harmony, your parents' marital success, or lack thereof, is not material when it comes to your own. You aren't them, your life is not theirs. They made their choices, and you made yours. Do not be distracted by your parents' marital choices as it relates to yours. This is not productive.

It is instructive to see your parents' marital history as part of who they are. For example, do you suppose part of your SD's behaviors are the result of his inner guilt over his own infidelity? Looking at it like that may help you to look at him another way. Not a better way, mind you. But with more knowledge of his makeup.

Great point, this all might be bringing up his own faults in how he acted so long ago.
Just because .....


Quote
harmony
noun
1 musical harmony: euphony, polyphony; tunefulness, melodiousness, mellifluousness. ANTONYMS dissonance.
2 the harmony of the whole structure: balance, symmetry, congruity, consonance, coordination, compatibility. ANTONYMS incongruity.
3 the villagers live together in harmony: accord, agreement, peace, peacefulness, amity, amicability, friendship, fellowship, cooperation, understanding, consensus, unity, sympathy, rapport, like-mindedness; unison, union, concert, oneness, synthesis; formal concord. ANTONYMS disagreement.

I think harmony (and serenity) are within your grasp ....
And, when you are ready, those qualities can be applicable to your relationship(s). To your marriage, perhaps.
You will not find harmony and serenity in your relationship, you will bring those qualities TO your relationship.

You do not have a familial role model for this.
This is a path of discovery.
You are an explorer. You are Magellan.

You wondered what your Dad meant when he said Mom could have been with him, even though he serially cheated, and how he said he was never seriuos with those women, Well there you have it, the answer I was wondering about. "Did Dad ever get honest with himself and his issues?" I guess not. At least not to you.

So you can't go to him for help on this..at least where it comes to what WH must face, because he himself hasn't faced it. So you look up and out from your family for answers, like you are, and continue.

Don't settle for second best, from yourself or those you bring into your personal life as confidantes, or friends, and be allways vigilante on those qualities that lift us up, make us stronger, and bring us life more abundantly. With yourself and with friends and family.

This never ends, but it becomes easier as we catch our thoughts heading the wrong way and change them, and as we examine our own intentions daily, with the support of friends who want and live for the same qualities.

Your heading in the right direction. Thats a great B-day Present huh?

Originally Posted by Pepperband
..

You do not have a familial role model for this.
This is a path of discovery.
You are an explorer. You are Magellan.

Woohoo Pep dance2 Brought tears to my eyes
I don't want to sidetrack but this is an important part of sorting my own chit out. I think I may have had a lightbulb moment.

After the run in last night I felt quite elated, like a massive weight rolled off my shoulders and like I had a voice. Ever since I was little my SD and I never got on. My SD made no effort whatsoever to build a rship with my brother and I, we all lived under the same room with separate lives, he never showed any care, conversation, or affection for either my brother and I. Now some of you will have your view, but IMHO if you are going to become a SP to someone else children you have a certain responsibility to make an effort to develop a relationship with that child. Ofcourse the resentment and dislike grew as I felt the whole time growing up that I had to be grateful to a man thant quite frankly wanted us out of the way. I was told off, pulled up on it told I was 'difficult' 'complex' but in no way felt protected and safe. My SD was idolised for 'saving' my mother from the 'big bad wolf' my father.

Thats why it felt good to stand upto him last night, because we don't have a relationship, he tells my mother and she blames me. I told him in that he had no right to judge me and 1 he has never made any effort with me and 2. he has no r'ship with his wife's children or his own, so do he think he is in a position to point out my character flaws and where I fall short? See I always wanted to get on with my SD for my mothers sake, I have always been polite, chatted ect... but I will not put up with him putting me down, period.

Now that I can deal with, I suppose what I am trying to make sense of, is why would she want to be with a man who had no interest in her children? Did she realise that she was shifting the blame from her H to her children for her poor choice in H? Why didn't she spend time in her own company before going from the frying pan into the fire? Now what is done is done. I just needed to make sense of it all, as most of the time I have felt there was something wrong with ME. I was bad, difficult, complex, moody...ect...

So what have I learnt from this?

1. That it is important that I have this time on my own before jumping into anything with my H or D. VERY important.
2. That we have to take responsibility for our decisions in life
3. That I want to be with a man who has morals, boundaries, good qualities, and vice versa for me.
4. That I have no interest in OM, as whatever he may be he is wrapped up in his own selfishness, and that will show maybe not with me, but in other areas.
5. I am super sensitive to criticism which I believe is a result of how I was always put down as a child
6. I should expect more from a relationship, as they have been very low.
7. That I don't need to have a man on my arm to validate me as a person
8. That when/if I have children it has to be in with the right man, in the right relationship
9. That my H, has never got involved with a married woman, and I am still praying that he is going through his own growth process just like me, and I still have faith in him.
10. That in defending my boundaries it could mean that some people are not part of my life.

So there, brain hurts, sorry if this is all a bit deep but helps me understand where I am and what I need to work on, and what I need to change.

Oh and Happy Birthday H, thinking of you, and I hope you are missing me being with you right now.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I am frightened of implementing my boundaries, it seems to be causing chaos on my life. Although somewhere inside me it feels good and right. Am I doing ok here?

Yes,

Chaos, well,

It is said somewhere in the Bible.. "God will shake what can be shaken, and what is left will be Gods", or something like that, I'm sorry I hate misquoting scripture, it can be so misleading..

But the point is, if doing what is good and right shakes the people in your world up, tough for them. If what you are doing what is right, it will stand, and you can count on that more than any person in the world.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I don't want to sidetrack but this is an important part of sorting my own chit out. I think I may have had a lightbulb moment...

Lol sidetrack? well this thread is about you and for you. So it made me chuckle.

That was very insightful post Harmony, from what I have gathered before it just solidified what most of us were probably allready thinking about how SD acted and the relationship with your Mom.

Pep summed it up also, you had no family role model and you were probabll taught the wrong things. by example.

Ok, so where does that leave you? Your a loving and sensitive daughter. Forgive them, take care of yourself, and watch how much to try to teach them, because parents rarly listen to children anyways, and you have to protect yourself.

Imagine what it might be like if they were healthier and how they would treat you, and treat yourself with that in mind, many of us have had to do that in our lives.

Spiritual authority comes from the top down, and many in authority do not listen or look up for it. Sometimes we have to look past them when we see they are messed up, and get the answers for ourselves.

In the big picture, from Gods perspective, they will be glad we did. But that is thier own journey in life.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
4. That I have no interest in OM, as whatever he may be he is wrapped up in his own selfishness, and that will show maybe not with me, but in other areas...

I thought we were all clear that OM already showed his selfishness with you. That he used you in an egotistical and selfish way, and doesn't even reapect marraige or what its supposed to be, or care about how important it was to you. That it IS important to you.

Maybe you should go back and read my post about his choices he had at the time. Why he chose what he did.

Those other areas? Sorry but he is lost Harmony. He blew it, and you have to realize what he did proves he would do it again.

You deserve better and should see that. You gotta stop romantisizing that crap Harmony.

A deeper and more meaningful real romance can be yours in the future.
Originally Posted by Pepperband
You do not have a familial role model for this.
This is a path of discovery.
You are an explorer. You are Magellan.


OK I like this post. So not only my marital skills are pretty poor, my history is not that great either, had to look Magellan up smile

I am liking it though, and thanks Pepper.

Do you know any decent History Building websites, where they don't serve 2 x 4's?
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
JL � you ask me how I view their marriages and which one is working? I would like them both to work as I want to know that my parents are in happy and secure marriages. My mum tells me how happy she is with my SD, but I am not so sure. I suppose all I can do is look and learn. Something rings true about the OM, you all tell me how a OM/OW who gets involved with a married person is selfish and has major character flaws. My SD? I don�t know I find it all a bit much, but I know the worst thing to come out of it was that I saw right through my SD since I was a little girl and have spent a long time been used as the blame for the lack of relationship there. I suppose my boundaries have seen that I am not at fault and given me some identity.

Why are you getting me to think about that? Is it so I can learn from them and try and do better? To be honest I find it quite disturbing, I just dont want all that happened then to affect my life now. I am more determined than ever to make it a success, just how.

Yes, I want you to see what boundaries/lack of boundaries can do to a marriage. I want you to learn. All that has happened WILL affect your life, that is for certain. What is not for certain is whether it will affect you positively or negatively, you control that. Hence the talk about boundaries, about looking at your parents and other married couples and seeing what is working and not working for them. The list you made in your last post was very good.

Oh! and having boundaries sometimes means speaking up and other times it means leaving something/someone alone. There are many ways to protect your boundaries and as you see them you will NOT be so sensitive to criticism because you will understand it better. Some criticism is for your benefit, and some is for someone to defend themselves. It sounds as if your SD was not for your benefit. But, then again he did not know what you were thinking and have been thinking for all of these years until...NOW. Now he knows, this may change things.

This brings me to something else. You having boundaries, letting people know what they are, and defending them will drive some people away, but it will also allow others to know you and while they may not like your defense, they will learn to appreciate you. A negative response to you defending yourself, does not mean the result will be negative. Have patience.

As for your family situation, it is complex but you can see that the lack of boundaries on your fathers part cost him dearly. It cost him a woman he apparently still wishes he was with. Your Mom's lack of boundaries put her in a situation that was not/is not optimal for her, but she is making the best of it.

Harmony, there are no guarantees in life, but the one thing you control is how you handle yourself and what comes to you in life. That is really what this is all about, learning how to handle yourself.

Please think about this carefully.

God Bless,

JL
Wanted to print this to you,regaurding the 2X4s. I stole it from the web, and its kinda famous and old, but you will like it im sure.

----------------------------------------

"The Meanest Mother"

I had the meanest mother in the whole world. While other kids ate
candy for breakfast, I had to have cereal, eggs or toast. When others
had cokes and candy for lunch, I had to eat a sandwich. As you can
guess, my supper was different than the other kids' also.
But at least, I wasn't alone in my sufferings. My sister and two
brothers had the same mean mother as I did.
My mother insisted upon knowing where we were at all times. You'd
think we were on a chain gang. She had to know who our friends were and
where we were going. She insisted if we said we'd be gone an hour, that
we be gone one hour or less--not one hour and one minute. I am nearly
ashamed to admit it, but she actually struck us. Not once, but each
time we had a mind of our own and did as we pleased. That poor belt was
used more on our seats than it was to hold up Daddy's pants. Can you
imagine someone actualy hitting a child just because he disobeyed? Now
you can begin to see how mean she really was.
We had to wear clean clothes and take a bath. The other kids always
wore their clothes for days. We reached the height of insults because
she made our clothes herself, just to save money. Why, oh why, did we
have to have a mother who made us feel different from our friends?
The worst is yet to come. We had to be in bed by nine each night
and up at eight the next morning. We couldn't sleep till noon like our
friends. So while they slept-my mother actually had the nerve to break
the child-labor law. She made us work. We had to wash dishes, make
beds, learn to cook and all sorts of cruel things. I believe she laid
awake at night thinking up mean things to do to us.
She always insisted upon us telling the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth, even if it killed us- and it nearly did.
By the time we were teen-agers, she was much wiser, and our life
became even more unbearable. None of this tooting the horn of a car for
us to come running. She embarrassed us to no end by making our dates
and friends come to the door to get us. If I spent the night with a
girlfriend, can you imagine she checked on me to see if I were really
there. I never had the chance to elope to Mexico. That is if I'd had a
boyfriend to elope with. I forgot to mention, while my friends were
dating at the mature age of 12 and 13, my old fashioned mother refused
to let me date until the age of 15 and 16. Fifteen, that is, if you
dated only to go to a school function. And that was maybe twice a year.

Through the years, things didn't improve a bit. We could not lie
in bed, "sick" like our friends did, and miss school. If our friends
had a toe ache, a hang nail or serious ailment, they could stay home
from school. Our marks in school had to be up to par. Our friends'
report cards had beautiful colors on them, black for passing, red for
failing. My mother being as different as she was, would settle for
nothing less than ugly black marks.
As the years rolled by, first one and then the other of us was put
to shame. We were graduated from high school. With our mother behind
us, talking, hitting and demanding respect, none of us was allowed the
pleasure of being a drop-out.
My mother was a complete failure as a mother. Out of four
children, a couple of us attained some higher education. None of us
have ever been arrested, divorced or beaten his mate. Each of my
brothers served his time in the service of this country. And whom do we
have to blame for the terrible way we turned out? You're right, our
mean mother. Look at the things we missed. We never got to march in a
protest parade, nor to take part in a riot, burn draft cards, and a
million and one other things that our friends did.
She forced us to grow up into God-fearing, educated, honest adults.
Using this as a background, I am trying to raise my three
children. I stand a little taller and I am filled with pride when my
children call me mean.
Because, you see, I thank God, He gave me the meanest mother in
the whole world.

written by Bobbie Pingaro (1967)

--------------------------------------------


I don't advocate violence with children, and I only resorted to spanking after I explained to my 5 year old how times were tough, and I was working two jobs, because I wanted him to have the best, and he still would not stop pulling his sisters hair or whatever.

Yeah, that was a joke.

Violence begets violence, and although every spanking came with a lecture, and a chance to stop before them, and yes a visit to them after to assure them I hated resorting to that, I would not spare them if they were endangering themselves or others. They would rather get a spanking, than listen to my lectures about thier behavior, almost every time.

Getting them to realize the consequences to thier behavior was the reason behind the discipline. To make them strong enough to look into themselves and understand what and why they wanted things, was more important for thier future than how irritated they might have made me or Mom, and yes we were not perfect and we did get irritated, and sometimes spanked them when we were. But most of the time, it was the last resort, and communication worked, along with compassion and teaching.

I envied the people who had Moms and Dads like the ones in this poem when I was a child. It was supposed to be a badge of honor sorta when I was a kid when Dad spanked you, but with me it wasn't done outside of anger, it was done within frustration from a guy who was allways frustrated with us and never happy with us. Because of that I allways was working and trying for acceptance, from a man who never accepted himself. All I wanted was to be treated normal, and have normal parents, and trust in them, so I could trust in myself too.

When I turned 18, my girlfriend who to me gave me selfworth, because she loved me and believed in me, convinced me that we should be married. I wanted to do the right thing by her, so I agreed, although I felt I wasn't ready. I told her that if we got carreers, and waited til we were 25 to have children, I would be happy with that, because I knew myself, and I knew having children was something I took very seriuosly, and I wasn't ready to take that on.

I was away from my Mom and Dad, and they had gotten divorced, and I was hopeful for the first time in my life for a future where I could be a man and love and respect what that was. I still was unsure though, and had something to prove, as any young man does, because he does. My wife stopped taking the pill without my knowledge and became pregnant on our honeymoon. I was not ready, but it made no differeance, I was going to be a Father.

I knew it was up to me and I had to grow up fast. anylizing myself or think how unfair is was would not help this child. I got very seriuos about growing up, being mature, and providing for him. This was not what my wife expected I guess. She thought I worried to much, didn't relax enough and she was concerned that I didn't party anymore. I was thinking, I'm sorry, this is what adults do, they make prioritys for thier children more important than themselves. I have not one moment of regret for thinking that way, it was to me, the measure of a man, and still is. To be honest though, niether of us were ready for marriage, and it ended with divorce years later. The most painful part in that for me is how I feel I let my Son down, and in that myself and what I find important too.

You have not had a child yet Harmony. You want one and a family too. Much of what we all are doing here is telling you that WH is nowhere near ready to take on that responsibility and your desire for those things will require a man with a deeper desire and inner security than WH has. I don't know if he will come around, he could of course, but he will have to see that he needs to grow up, and want that more than anything else, and have the guts to stick his neck out and sacrifice his desparate habits. Because well only he can bring the honesty of what he is afraid of to the table, his table, where he chooses what is right whether others see it or not, where he accoutable to his own conscience first, and shares it with you, then at your marriage table.

WH has many issues he must deal with, some that might take years and the help of therapists and other teachers. Marriage is not something that just happens, it an institution where we learn to love also. The vows are not wishful thinking, we must be honest with ourselves before we can be honest with others, to some this is a challange, esspecially those who are not yet ready to be healthy alone.

IMO, both of you have your issues, but you are the only one willing to learn and explore yours, so you have the benifet of growing and learning about yourself, while also learning how important it is to be satisfied with yourself, while protecting yourself, and yes, your future children. Its the oxygen mask theory. Why do they tell women on a plane to put the oxygen mask on themselves before they put it on the child? Because they know, thier instint is to protect the child at thier own detriment, and if they follow that instinct, both may die.

It may seem unfair that you have to go thru this, but it is a blessing I promise, and you will see it more and more as you travel this road. Don't get discouraged, your life is gonna get better from all this, and you will learn how to be an even more awesome and loving woman with or without a husband and children, and you do not have to settle for anyone who does not love and respect you.

You needed a father who would love you and care for you more than themselves and now you were ready to settle for someone just like the fathers you had. Maybe you need to look inside and see what you were used to, and if that was unhealthy, and look for someone/thing better in a man. Maybe you need to realize you deserve it, and need it in a husband.

What do you think?

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
... I don�t know I find it all a bit much, but I know the worst thing to come out of it was that I saw right through my SD since I was a little girl and have spent a long time been used as the blame for the lack of relationship there. ..

Wow, you were to blame for thier lack of relationship? What a guilt complex that must have developed in a little girl. Have you ever thought about that Harmony? How did you deal with it?

Hi Guys

Thanks for all your posts, I feel like I have found a tremendous amount of peace with myself and you have no idea how liberating this feels.

Spoke to both my sisters yesterday, they are both been very supportive about my run in with my SD and felt protective over me but feel sorry for mum, they are both 10/11 years older than me. Had a further interesting chat with my sis over dinner last night and we actually talked about what happened back then, I need to understand what happened so I can makes sense of it all. I have never gone there. I asked questions like,

How did mum meet SD?
Did Dad have A's?
How badly did Dad hurt children/mum?
Why did Mum go straight into relationship with SD?
Did Mum meet SD whilst with Dad?
How long after Dad left did we move away with SD?
How old was I?

It was good to understand, and also appreciate the make up of my family. I suppose all that went on back then, the saddest thing I feel is that my mum fell into a relationship with my SD when she was at a vulnerable time. Also, that during the marriage she felt like she owed him for 'saving her' which probably led to her standing by my SD, rather than protecting her children and giving them the time and attention they wanted (SD liked to keep mum to himself).

Apparantly my SD got a job far in another town away from where we lived and asked my mother to go with him, my mother told him no she just wanted to be on her own with her children and my SD went to my mothers sister to get her to beg to change my mums mind and she did. She also had another 'wobble' before they got married. Argh! I am not angry with any of them, thats just the way they were, at least it helps me put some sense to the way I have turned out. My sister also told me that my mum was considering leaving SD a few years back. I think JL is right, she makes the best of it. That makes me sad, I can't help it. I don't like to think of her 'making the best of it', but they were the words of my sister also. She is not unhappy, but boy she could have been so much happier. I feel that her D was the right decision for her and more than entitled to it, but I do not think that she should have jumped into a r'ship right away.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Wow, you were to blame for thier lack of relationship? What a guilt complex that must have developed in a little girl. Have you ever thought about that Harmony? How did you deal with it?


I don't know I how I dealt with it, I didn't. I think that talking about it here, understanding boundaries and looking at the make up of SD, mum ect has made me understand it.

I was made to feel bad and guilty because I did not get on with SD. I was always pulled to one side by my mums sister, or my elder sisters havign a word with me about how I was with SD. I was treated as the 'difficult child with issues', even to this day. You can not imagine how good it felt to stand upto my SD and not accept his negative judgement of me. Weird but when my mum came outside, it was almost like there was an unsaid apology, like she was stood behind me cheering me for standing up for myself. It was like I saw the situation through my own adult eyes and it all came clear, just like that.

Now I understand that my mother did not want to acknowledge that maybe it was her H who was at fault as they it would be admitting that perhaps she had not made a good choice in partner (again). This explains why I have always had a strong set of GFs from a long time back, as I learnt from that is men come and go but you always will have your GF's. Ihave never dropt a GF for a guy, I think thats how it felt, mum dropped me for SD.

I have bonded with my Dad again in recent years, I was always a daddys girl when I was little. I think he has a lot of remorse and regret over what happened back then and spent a long time blaming my mother. He apologised to M recently, but whats good now is that my sisters and brother and I are the most important thing to him NOW.

I guess what Ihave learned from all this 'probing' is that I was a normal healthy happy child who was put in a situation that was confusing, unsettling and lacking. What I have learned is that I did the best I could with what I had, it was not my fault, in fact the opposite. It makes sense now, I was always searching for that role model, with neighbours and friends parents. Hopefully now, I have learned a whole lot more I can make some better decisions with some of the knowledge I have learnt here:)

Oh and OM, I don't think so do you?
Hiya COnstant

Earlier in my thread you asked what I do for living, I work in IT and run outsourced contracts on site for various customers. I joined BT, UK equivalent of AT&T you probably know them on the graduate scheme and worked my way up.

I enjoy business and I enjoy dealing with customer, although at some point would like to do something more fulfilling but one thing at a time!

Thanks for the story, it was really cool, I appreciated that. I get it totally, that the parents that seemed mean really cared. I know that all my Dad really wanted, was for his children to be well mannered and respectful.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
It may seem unfair that you have to go thru this, but it is a blessing I promise, and you will see it more and more as you travel this road. Don't get discouraged, your life is gonna get better from all this, and you will learn how to be an even more awesome and loving woman with or without a husband and children, and you do not have to settle for anyone who does not love and respect you.


It feels a tiny bit unfair, I would rather have learnt it all along the way but if anything it makes me even more determined to be fulfilled, happy and successful in life. At the moment it all feels a bit much, not in the sense I am low or can't cope, but just a lot going on. I actually feel quite good, has anyone had that feeling when you are supposed to be a wreck as chaos is going on all around but actually feel quite centred?

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
You needed a father who would love you and care for you more than themselves and now you were ready to settle for someone just like the fathers you had. Maybe you need to look inside and see what you were used to, and if that was unhealthy, and look for someone/thing better in a man. Maybe you need to realize you deserve it, and need it in a husband.

What do you think?


You have a very good point here. I have been doing a lot of work on myself lately so it has taken my mind of H and how I feel about that. I feel in a good place right now, hurrah, I just want to stay here for awhile. Get some balance and peace in my life.

I know what you mean about raising my expectations re qualities in my H, it is difficult to miss or expect something when you have never had it. I suppose if I spell out 3 things that are important me is, time, attention and care. I will have higher expectations, and will ask for more but honestly I think I will give more than I did in the past. The more I go through this process here, the more I realise how less than perfect I was too.

So I have 2 chain of thoughts on my H, if he were to offer me that olive branch;

1. We have both brought issues into the M, we both needed to learn and grow as individuals. Using MB concepts and 100% commitment, we could have an amazing M, and be even stronger knowing that we have grown so much together.

2. My H has too many of his own issues to sort out, which could take a long time and even then he is not willing to accept his own flaws and change. Too much damage has been done and I am wasting my time.

Ofcourse, I am praying for the first option, and do so every night.

Something in me believes in him. I hope this is my instincts and not me living in fairytale land smile

Harmony

Harmony,

Could you do me a favor and go back and read your first posts here? I think you will see what you know. You were not and perhaps are not quite yet ready to really be in a marriage or a relationship. You are getting there.

You are starting to show the signs of someone who is be capable of rearing a child, nuturing a marriage, and actually enjoying a marrige.

It is not that people are perfect Harmony, it is what they do with their imperfections that counts. To handle ones imperfections correctly, takes insight into ones self and insight into the human condition.

If you were to read Harley's articles today, I firmly believe you would see what he says in an entirely new light. You would not only read the words and understand them as actions to take, but you would begin to see the "reason" behind them.

You are coming along nicely Harmony, keep up the good work.

God Bless,

JL
Hello JL,

Originally Posted by Just Learning
Could you do me a favor and go back and read your first posts here? I think you will see what you know. You were not and perhaps are not quite yet ready to really be in a marriage or a relationship. You are getting there.


It was actually quite painful to read my original thread, particularly how much my H disrespected me. Just by not coming home at night and me being awake worrying and him going off doing is own thing. It was such a horrible time, Plan B is much better! I have been sleeping better and smoking less (still have 1/2 a day), gross I know.

Yes I did not like the way he treated me and the way I was scared to speak up, I have definetly found my voice.

Also I was very desperate and needy, my coping skills were poor too.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
You are coming along nicely Harmony, keep up the good work.

God Bless,

JL


Thank you JL, I feel like I am, thanks for staying close to my story.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hiya COnstant

Earlier in my thread you asked what I do for living, I work in IT and run outsourced contracts on site for various customers. I joined BT, UK equivalent of AT&T you probably know them on the graduate scheme and worked my way up. ..

I started to work for AT&T in the late 80s, but my life was to unstable and so was I, so I got laid off. The union didn't like me anyway, its OK, I really never liked them either. Don't get me wrong, they have there place, but supporting ppl who waste company time flirting with the secretaries.. well I won't start on that Lol..

My 23 year old son is a manager and was top salemen before in AT&T now. Very proud of him. Its funny how that works huh?

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..You have a very good point here. I have been doing a lot of work on myself lately so it has taken my mind of H and how I feel about that. I feel in a good place right now, hurrah, I just want to stay here for awhile. Get some balance and peace in my life.

I know what you mean about raising my expectations re qualities in my H, it is difficult to miss or expect something when you have never had it. I suppose if I spell out 3 things that are important me is, time, attention and care. I will have higher expectations, and will ask for more but honestly I think I will give more than I did in the past. The more I go through this process here, the more I realise how less than perfect I was too. ..

yes take your time.. the best part is that you know it will come when its right, and it will come I am sure.

About the qualities in a H, In some ways it is also the role of a father, I don't mean H as a father to you, but how a father acts. IYKWIM.. What does a man do in what situation as you observe them? What do they reflect from inside? I don't think you were ever allowed to call a parent on anything before, so yes, you did not have that. Believe me, honesty and integrity caused me to appoligize at times to my little girl, and I learned from my mistakes too when I messed up.

There is an example that sticks in my mind on how they train bank tellers to recognize counterfiet money. They give them real money to handle over and over again for weeks, touching, looking at it counting it. All the time giving them tasks and emphasizing how important the tasks are, and studing the money. By the time they are used to the tasks, and they handle the money so much its second nature, when they pass a fake bill through thier hands, they instintivly feel it.

Yeah if you have never had it, you don't know the real thing yet, so you might not even know it when you see it. But now you are handling your life better, and someday anyone who doesn't treat you right, will show up as counterfiet.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..

So I have 2 chain of thoughts on my H, if he were to offer me that olive branch;

Ah don't forget, you have a right to fight too. He has yet realized you should be able to get mad at him. So shouldn't there be an olive branch that comes from you too? Just a reminder that you have a right to make the best choice for you, and fight for it

1. We have both brought issues into the M, we both needed to learn and grow as individuals. Using MB concepts and 100% commitment, we could have an amazing M, and be even stronger knowing that we have grown so much together.

2. My H has too many of his own issues to sort out, which could take a long time and even then he is not willing to accept his own flaws and change. Too much damage has been done and I am wasting my time.

Very simple, honest and real, and I might point out that theses were questions you had at the beginning also. It seems you know what needs to happen and allways have. All you needed was the right support in good decisions


Ofcourse, I am praying for the first option, and do so every night.

Something in me believes in him. I hope this is my instincts and not me living in fairytale land smile

Harmony

Something about believing in people, I would be the most stupidest person in the world to say someone could not change, not only because I would like to see people lead better lives, but because if they do, mine would be better too. I was one straight laced serious young man in my 20s, but most of the people who knew me were confused by one simple thing. How could I give everyone such a place of grace and say that they could change? Especially when my job and function was one of authority? The answer is simple.. I needed that grace also, allways did, allways will. If I couldn't give it to others, I couldn't give it to me. Many of the people who critisized my belief had a ton of problems themselves, and they judged others on a permenant scale. things like "They will allways.." or "They will never.." and truly, I think they felt that desparate about themselves too, and it parylized them.

Thing is Harmony, if someone does not perform in business you must do what you can to help them, or let them go. You are an Exec, you know how that works, you do nobody a favor if the whole ship goes down, because one will not play ball. You are responsible for everyones paycheck and the people who count on it. Its the real reason to administrate, to help others, and authority has its place then where it should be, not in power and prestige.

In a relationship that digs deep into our soul, like marriage, it is even more important that we have the right ingredients and inner balance between the two. Its more about the qualities of integrity and honesty we share and not as much about the measureing stick of others which seem so important in the world, and thier opinions of outward prosperity. Things can look so good and a marriage breaks up, things can look so bad and they stick and fight for each other, but only the two can answer the question, "Do they love me?" as they learn about what it is. The intimacy that comes from total honesty between two people is a bond that cannot be broken. They need honesty between each other along with the truth as it is revealed about life.

Biblical quote "A three fold cord is not easlily broken" It means the intimacy of two people who dedicate thier life to each other, with the truth and love of Christ entwined within in it. What is the first thing we need to be able to love? The love and guarantee of it from another weak and frail human being?, or the love of God whom is the author of what love is. I will trust God before another person, but if I hear God speaking through them, I can trust them too. Sorry but people plagurize and get love from that source, we all do, as do I too. Its OK, I am not ashamed, without God I am nothing. Maybe that is why I forgive and give grace, because I know I need it too.

You are in a healthy place now, and your taking the time needed to realize just how valuable of a person you are, and how to protect yourself. You are a very forgiving and nurturing lady, this is one of your strengths, can you see how it can also be used against you? How it also can be a weakness if you don't watch how far you let others cross a healthy boundary? In the end, and by that I mean the answer to the big question.."What am I afraid of?".. I hope you see that you have nothing to fear in standing and fighting for yourself, and you have nothing to prove, and with descretion, nothing to hide either. This will come with time, and I have no doubt you have the heart and tools to get there.

Keep learning to love yourself..
Hi Harmony,

first of all, I missed that you had a birthday lately, so congratulations! This is a good age, not young, not old, but maturing wink I'm 36, so I know.

I'm very glad that you're a survivor. I'm sure you feel that knowledge makes us stronger, so you were able to stand out against your SD. I know how it hurts to watch how our parents' and in-laws' marriages are sometimes hurtful to them, too, the sore spots just stick out. But I don't know how to tell them without embarrassing them and myself, because I would feel educating them, but culturally it would be wrong. So I've chosen to stand by and tell myself that this is not my business.

You also took 2x4 seriously and continue walking the personal recovery road. I'm glad that are still here with us. So keep going!



I have read back through my thread �FWW in need of help and hope�.

It is quite difficult seeing how much pain I was in and how H treated me. I am pretty glad I am in Plan B, even though I miss my H.

Now I am in a clearer, calmer place this is what I see from that thread:

� That I found Plan A really emotionally tough, that it was like everyday rejection from my H, which was a reminder of things from the past
� The reason I could not stay in Plan A any longer, is due to the OW and staying out all at night, it was too upsetting to have pushed in my face. I would have kept up Plan A for 6 months, if my H was not in an A.
� During the whole of Plan A, I was not emotionally in a good place, and found it difficult to make sense of anything
� That my H has not emotionally detached from his parents as he adopts their negative behaviours
� That I was scared to tell people in my life how I feel about things
� That I had low expectations for a M or H.
� That my H wanted to punish me, get even and boost his ego which explains his behaviour but regardless of anything else, treated me like crap.
� That I was weak, needy and desperate and I have not stood up for myself in life
� That Plan B, has saved my sanity and I feel soo much better. I am sleeping well now, and if things are not good my sleeping always goes first�

I have some questions if anyone could answer them�.

Was my H genuinely heartbroken?

Did H want to punish me or did he want out?

Am I wasting time on my H, does he have too many issues and treated me too poorly I need to really move on?

How do I react of he offers me an olive branch? Part of me still feels very angry and would demand A LOT, if he did this�..but then I am getting guidance to just say I need 2 things, 1 No contact 2 Commitment to the MB plan

Is it time to turn up the heat and let him know I am really going out of the door and see how he reacts? I am thinking of changing the locks and getting rid of the rest of his stuff�

Sorry for all the questions!!

My mind is thinking this is my plan�.

Stay in Plan B until Jan 1st 2011, then file for D.
If my H offers olive branch before then, he needs to seek IC for his behaviour (hitting ect�) and address marriage issues

Thank you

Harmony.


Hi Harmony,
I think your husband is heartbroken, who wouldn't be with all that has happened between you two.
I think your husband was trying to punish you with his behavior and maybe a part of him wanted out to live the life he is living now...........
I think anyone that wants to change for the better can, everyone knows right from wrong.......
I think if he made the changes you need to see then I don't think it would be a waste of time to consider another shot at the marriage.
I think you have to move on from the past Harmony, the life you left behind wasn't a good one........
If he offered you a olive branch then certainly you would demand No Contact with any other woman.........
He would have to commit to a structured MB program and do the work it takes to self evaluate and work on his own issues........
I think your Plan sounds very doable and reasonable.......
It's alright to have lots of questions and re-evaluating going on, this is how we learn and accept our decisions, these are big ones so it will take a lot of mulling and thinking.........
Harmony in the meantime you have grown and become stronger as an individual and you are setting some boundaries in place for yourself and this is turn will give you a sense of self worth ............
I'm proud of you so far, it takes strength to admit your own mistakes and then put up boundaries so the people around you don't disrespect you..........
Hi Jessi

Thanks for your response, it hurts to know that there is another life he chooses over me, but I guess that is what is going on.

Still keep having weird dreams about him, last night I dreamt that he was in lots of pain and made another attempt to get in contact with me.

We sat down and talked and he was no longer foggy, or angry or difficult and we agreed to a plan. That was nice smile

HA HA in my dreams right.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I have some questions if anyone could answer them�.

Was my H genuinely heartbroken?

Did H want to punish me or did he want out?

Am I wasting time on my H, does he have too many issues and treated me too poorly I need to really move on?

How do I react of he offers me an olive branch? Part of me still feels very angry and would demand A LOT, if he did this�..but then I am getting guidance to just say I need 2 things, 1 No contact 2 Commitment to the MB plan

Is it time to turn up the heat and let him know I am really going out of the door and see how he reacts? I am thinking of changing the locks and getting rid of the rest of his stuff�

Sorry for all the questions!!

My mind is thinking this is my plan�.

Stay in Plan B until Jan 1st 2011, then file for D.
If my H offers olive branch before then, he needs to seek IC for his behaviour (hitting ect�) and address marriage issues

Thank you

Harmony.
Harmony,

Nobody here can answer questions 1 and 2. Nobody knows whether your H was heartbroken and whether he wanted to punish you but him.

Really, it isn't necessary for you to know the answers to these questions, either. They will not affect what happens in the future. What will matter is whether your H is committed to you and the marriage if he comes back, and whether he is remorseful THEN about what he has done.

I wouldn't like to attempt a definitive answer to no.3, except to say that you can recover your marriage despite his poor treatment of you in the past. What matters is his treatment of you from the present onwards. If he is to end his poor behaviour, though, he must work daily at changing his behaviour. I don't think anyone can tell you whether that will happen.

The decision whether to cut your losses and move on is a difficult on that only you can make. There isn't any scientific formula that will tell you whether continued investment in the marriage will pay off. Your age is a factor in your decision, because if you hold on for a few years and the marriage does not recover, you will have missed your chance to have a family.

Question 4: If your H wants to go back, he needs to demonstrate that his affair has ended and make a commitment to MB recovery. The MB programme already demands a lot of the FWS. If you like, please list your demands here; I think we could show you that they are all implied in Dr Harley's programme for marital restoration.

I would change the locks and remove his stuff if the alternative allows him to enter the home and break Plan B. I think I would change the locks anyway.

The January date is entirely yours to call, but I would not inform H that there is a deadline.

If you want IC or other treatment to be a condition of his return you need to specify this in your Plan B letter. H should show that he is already on a treatment programme before he contacts you asking to go back. His organising this would be a sign of his commitment. Do not allow him to return with a plan to arrange this later.

I can't remember whether you've given him a Plan B letter. I'll read now.
Hi SC

Thanks for your response, been for a nice run down the seafront today, managed to get on the beach but tide was in.

I agree with your points and believe you could be right.

I think we have both bought issues into this M and feel that H was very heartbroken by my A, as I was perhaps the first woman he felt he could trust and feel safe with and I let him down.

I think maybe I need to push on more as though I am moving towards D, he has not been to the house all week, since I ignored his phone calls Sat, and my crystal ball is telling me he is really hacked off I ignored his birthday.

My Plan B letter was not very MB, I was a bit hacked off at this point. To be honest he was so foggy and confused that I could have written anything and he would have ignored it.

I still feel quite in conflict with him myself, I am also concerned if I write him a Plan B letter he may go and show it to people.

I was reading some previous threads and also speaking to SH, if he comes into the house again whilst I am here trying to get my attention, I could just then let him know that until he wants to end contact with OW, seek IC and commit to MB program there is nothing left to talk about.

The list I feel at the moment before I could take him back would be;

Remorse for his actions
NC with the OW
A phone call and appt initiated by him with SH

There are other things though that concerns me such as OW works at the golf club, so he would have to leave there....

What do you think?

Thanks all,

Harmony
Sounds like a good list to me. You have a start there anyways cuz SH will bring up any other issues like him needing an IC to deal with.....and so on.
Hiya Constant

Thanks for your reply, you said about an olive branch from me to H, I can't do this can I as am in Plan B?

For example when he came round last week and sat in the office, I could have spoken to him?

Harmony.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 11/19/10 05:11 PM
Your Plan B is already so full of holes, I would just spend my time trying to patch them up and working on myself if I were you.

I had 2 olive branches in my Plan B. One was 2 months after complete darkness and the other one was 2 months after that. Then I let my WH see me a few weeks ago. That is 3 times in 11 months that my WH has seen me in any way. How long have you been in Plan B and how many times has your WH been in your house or seen you?
Yes you are right Scotland.

I suppose i was a bit confused as I told Steve H about the locks and his stuff and he told me to not do anything else.

I will get on the case sorting this all out on Monday.

My H has seen me once in Plan B and I have not initiated any contact with him in the 6 weeks he has been gone.
I think it just may be time for me to move on properly as I think I am spending too much time waiting for H to walk through the door.

To be honest I just wantmy bday out of the way, as I just feel so alone right now. I feel let down by so many people in a big way. Looking at your boundaries is a good thing, but it has only made me realise how I have been let down or mistreated by those around me.

Hopefully things will start to get better.

So worried about my Dad right now too.

My comment about an olive branch was to point out that olive branchs were offered by the antoganists in war. In other words, you are, and have been, the person who was attacked and shoved around by his continued IB and his blind selfish acts, and evrything you have exhibited except your affair, has shown me you will accept his bad treatment.

Plan B is you standing for yourself, why do you think he is the only one who has the right to fight and take action? Why did you think he is fighting for what is right? ..Why do you take this treatment and think you deserve it somehow?

It was an observation thats all, that you think he has some right and stands somewhere that he has to forgive you because again, "its all your fault Harmony".."I have done nothing wrong". When in truth he has neglected you until you ran away to a POS like the OM. Remember, two wrongs did,nt make a right did they? so there is no excuse for it, but that you let yourself go there is now something we are also exploring. Your willingness to be with the kind of men you have, is something you will have to deal with internally, or your marriage will never be what it could be, or even the comprimise you were willing to settle for before. Because that stuff just doesn't fly and will eventually crumble.

If you have read scottys thread, and I have been following it since day 1, you will see how cautiuos and carefully she adheres to Plan B and also the pain she went through in preparing her olive branch. But the war she is waging agaist the A that is threatening her marraige was fought with many advisors here, and every one of them counselled her to stand for herself and make her H respect her boundarys, cuz shes worth it, thats why..

So you are too, and should be to your WH, and I wanted to point out you still don't seem to know that, maybe just inside somewhere, and the olive branch he was possibly gonna offer you, well, what are you fighting for? Where is your demands? Are you ready to stand up for you?

Yes your in plan B, but WH still believes he has done nothing wrong? His temper tantrum behavior is his right somehow? I don't think he even knows yet he might lose you if he doesn't change, and doesn't feel he has to. Thats where you have a fight, and untill he is challanged in that, there is no olive branch you should offer. The negotiations of the war would leave you still in slavery. Your selling your life/self short.

Like Scotty said, your in plan B, and you are still in need of working on boundarys in yourself, and the ones that should reflect them in your marriage. To offer an olive branch before you even start to fight, well thats giving up before the battle even begins. Take the time to think about those things, and don't be a victim, and don't give up yet. You have to be strong and only you can be that for yourself in this. WH thinks he is entitled, and oyu have let him. Don't be fooled again.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I think it just may be time for me to move on properly as I think I am spending too much time waiting for H to walk through the door...
There it is again..you are just giving up, without a fight. Why don't you fight? This is the question I am asking, don't you think you and your marriage is worth it? Or do you think marriage just happens?

If you fight for all the right things for you and in marriage, you will become stronger married or not. If you don't stand up for yourself, you will be a victim married or not.

Plan B.. time to re-evaluate your life, and change what you can, even if it means being alone for awhile and insisting marraige on your terms until you are really satisfied you have done all. If your marriage isn't what it should be, and I think you still have work understanding the relationship, you will be lonly while in it too, just like before. So it makes no sense to rush.

Stop compromising what you know is right, or making a choice that you must run away. Fight, and fight fair. we are here to help you. Believe me, settling for less will mean you will get just that.

Hang in there, what are you missing from your life anyways?
OK I get you Constant. Thanks so much, and also for your time that you given to my thread it is really appreciated you know smile


Concentrate on your Dad now. Sounds like it is a worthy priority for you or anyone.

Sorry for this, hope he gets better soon.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
OK I get you Constant. Thanks so much, and also for your time that you given to my thread it is really appreciated you know smile
My pleasure
Oops cross threads.

OK I get you, not missing anything at all. I am REALLY enjoying this time alone.

Will move into Dark Plan B, and plant those seeds of forgiveness that Pepper was on about.

Like someone said, find a way to keep him from getting his "Harmony fix" and showing up when he wants to. He has to work for it to be around you.

When your lonly, come here and post, that what we are here for.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 11/20/10 01:01 AM
Harmony, I wanted to tell you that it is perfectly NORMAL for you to want your WH to come through that door. There are still moments when I wish the same thing. I don't want the same man who walked out through that door.

The first while in Plan B is hard. It really does get easier with time and the time it takes each person is different. Take your time. Work on yourself and you will do fine.
Hello MB crew

Birthday today. Had a moment this morning but thought stop feeling sorry for yourself Harmoneeeeee!

Feel on a bit of a high that I am ok on my own and surviving!!

Just want to say thank you to all of you who helped me get to this stronger place. Could not have done it without you.

Must go, got some celebrating to do.

Harmony x
HappyBirthday
Hey my Bday was the ninth, and there was a cake to the left by my name. Where is yurs harmony?
Hey Constant.

Birthday is 20th nov, happy belated birthday to you.

H sent me a text message today;

Hi HRmony Happy Birthday. Thinking of you. Lots of love H x

I am not kidding I burst into tears when I read that message. I feel heartbroken right now xxx.

He has been 6 weeks staying somewhere with no signs he wants to come home, ad far as I am concerned he is quite happy.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 11/21/10 01:46 AM
Okay, why haven't you changed your cell phone number yet, oh wait, I remember, because you are NOT serious about Plan B. Seriously 6 WEEKS. My WH has been gone for 11 MONTHS. YES MONTHS. I didn't need to change my cell number because he only calls it to talk to the kids but believe me, if he had called me on it and we didn't have kids, it would be an unlisted number.

Are you serious about Plan B? You need to get serious. If you continue to do a shabby Plan B you may as well stop and just die a death of a thousand cuts.

You LOVE the attention. You CRAVE the attention. I know how hard it is to have a birthday without your WH. I went into Plan B on my 34th birthday. It was the first birthday since my 17th that I had NOT been with WH. Do you get that? 17 YEARS that I celebrated my bday with WH and SWOOSH down the toilet. I had some good times but my 34th, I am pretending that it didn't happen. I was 33 and this year, I will turn 35, no 34th bday for me. THAT is how serious I am.

Do you believe in DrH? Do you have faith that what he tells you is true?

Be honest with yourself. Did you go into Plan B to see if WH still cared? To see if he still wants to be with you? Because that isn't what Plan B is truly about.

Sorry I am being like this with you but I am a little tired of the "Poor me" vibe going on here. We have ALL been affected by adultery on this forum. We KNOW what you are going through.

Change that cell phone number and go TRULY dark.
You have to stop letting him see you, communicate to you any way, or function like anybody who has anything at all to do with your life. Thats Plan B.

Have you read about it? There are links on the newly betrayed thread that will lead you in how to do it.

See, its the way you tell him its over if he doesn't change. No excuses, time to man up. I think you have been used to allowing men in your life have excuses. Don't think that makes you a good wife and marriage material. It just makes you soft and shows you don't care about discipline. Sorry if that hurts, but its the truth.

From what I see, you are afraid of conflict, and thats what WH liked about you,and was comfortable around you too, because he could get away with crap cuz you would take it. You had solid ideas of morality and positive plans for a future that he was allowed to put on the back burner. The good kind and forgiving women at home. and the doormat too.

Then, when you had the A, because you didn't fight fair, and were really open for the attention he was supposed to give you, and you went way out and screwed yourself up with OM. Aww jeez, I guess he got mad huh? Guess that got his attention, but what price did you pay for it? You didn't win anything, in fact you lost self respect.

No plan to address the issues, make a stand, and then leave the marriage if he didn't change. Just gave up, and let yourself be controlled by OM.

You really don't believe you can do this do you? Or is it you don't want to?, and would rather take the easy way out?

I posted to you about how you needed to fight for yourself before, and maybe why you didn't based on the examples you had in your life. It doesn't change the fact you have to anyway. My observation was for your revelation not a way for you to make excuses for why you feel what you feel or do what you do.

Its a fact that we value ourselves more when others do. Self respect and love is a gift. If your parents were not capable of it, and just skirted the issue/s that you needed to survive outwardly, then go to God and get it. It seems you are forced to anyway, and these people here are to me some of His angels.

You must find the strength inside to do this alone for yourself, and that is linked to your self esteem and understanding that you are worth the fight. All the past crap and circumstances you went thru as a kid is just an example of poor teaching, and now you have the advantage of this place and people who really care about you and respect you enough to give you the truth.

All we can do is help you do it. we can't do it for you.

BTW, my comment on how being soft and not respecting disipline? ,and how being nice and forgiving does not automatically make you a good wife?. Compassion comes in many forms, one is the boot in the butt from those who love us and hate to see us mess up our life, and don't want to see us waste ours. I never wanted a pushover for a mate in marriage, nor should anyone. I wanted someone who would fight and value me and find me worth fighting for and with, if the battle was worthy.

Conflict is good Harmony, it defines us and the value we have in life, and what is important to us we fight for. There is many ways to wage battle, and sometimes its just insisting we are respected, and standing our ground, without aggression.

I am just one person on this board, and it is only my opinion, but I think the A you had was intended for aggression towards your H at some point. Is that true? What do you think? Were you mad? Were you fed up? Did you want to get even? If I am right then you have a skewed sense of how to act when hurt, and are confused as to what will bring you comfort.

I know that now you see the selfish intentions and the disregaurd for your marriage that OM had, but for awhile there you were defending him also and finding good things about him and missing him. Really Harmony what were you missing? The a was a viciuos and determined act of bitterness and deciet. You wouldn't be the first to do it for those reasons, and you won't probably be the last, but I pose the question, aren't you worth more than that?

I think your here because you know you are, and in your capacity to forgive you hope to change so it doesn't happen again. If you stay in the same mindset, it will, so changing your mind will have to come, and you will have to trust those who have what you want, a healthy set of rules and a code they live by to protect themselves, and thier marriage, which is supposed to reflect two people, who love each other as themselves.

So what comes first? You or them? You of course. God doesn't want you to sacrifice yourself for our version of love. He allready did that himself when he sent his Son to the cross. Do you see what that means? His son was perfect and it satisfied all sacrifices that we could ever give, and he was the perfect sacrifice also, and gave up more than we ever had or could have in this life. The abuse and we take, and the sacrifices we make in the name of love, are nothing compared to that, so it has been done already. We now have to learn what love is, and accept we are valuable because God says we are by His definition, not ours.

I know I sound preachy, but I am going by that old adage,"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day, Teach him to fish and he will eat his whole life" I am talking about how you don't seem to value yourself enough, and how you let yourself fall so many times for the wrong men, and even accepted there treatment of you when you know it wasn't right in your heart. Why is that? Why did you fall apart and have an A? Why did you do that to yourself? Did you think he would feel sorry for you? That in the end you would win something?

I know these questions are hard, but they are for you to think about. Maybe you will trust in the disciplines, (root word, disciples), of God who is who should be your authority figure. It doesn't matter if you screwed up as long as you learned from it, and don't do it again, thats repentance. I do feel that if you valued yourself as God values you, you wouldn't accept half the crap that people try to sell you, and would be afraid to, because your father in heaven, who us fathers on earth must look to also and are accountable to, is the only true source that loves us, and we can trust that.

Dr H is Christian based, and marriage was the last time I looked, Gods institution. Most of the people here believe in God, and the ones who don't believe what he says about marriage anyway so same difference to me. I feel that you could gain a lot if you would draw close to Him and spend some time learning from the scriptures just how wise and deep Gods love for you is. The disciplines and depth of love you can have from God are more important than your marriage IMO because without them marriage has no value, because if you don'tlove and value yourself, what does the marriage represent anyway.

Sorry for the length of this post, but I want you to eventually love yourself and end up with a guy who loves you too, whether thats WH or not. I hope it helps you to think, and to fight for what Christ died for, you.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hey Constant.

Birthday is 20th nov, happy belated birthday to you.

H sent me a text message today;

Hi HRmony Happy Birthday. Thinking of you. Lots of love H x

I am not kidding I burst into tears when I read that message. I feel heartbroken right now xxx.

He has been 6 weeks staying somewhere with no signs he wants to come home, ad far as I am concerned he is quite happy.

Don't respond to this text. Then he won't know whether you got it or not.
Change your number.
Hi Guys

Had some bad news yesterday.

I found out what it means about stopping Dads cancer treatment, the cancer has now progressed to a worse stage and they are probably giving him 12 months. Obviously I am very upset.

Dad had a long chat with about calling it a day and filing for divorce, he thinks I should contact H to meet this week and say unless we can commit y
to sorting out marriage then I intend to file for divorce. My dad just wants to see me in a better situation. I am getting a lot of pressure from my 2 sisters and mother to end the marriage.

I feel so much anger towards H right now and feel so let down. I am so confused.

I have now changed the locks and blocked his number.

Sorry to hear about your dad.

Glad you have locks changed and blocked the number.

Really sorry..
Harmony,
So sorry to hear the news about your Dad......just enjoy the time you have left with him.....
I'm glad you have changed the locks and he can't just come in whenever he wants...this is better........
Give yourself some time before you make any big decisions......you need to process the news of your Dad first............
I would wait until the new year Jan 1/11 and then start with your plan to see a lawyer and file for D.
Don't let this ruin the holiday season with your family.............
New Year, New Start...............
((hugs))
Thanks Guys

Just feel a bit numb, need to be even stronger now for Dad, although I don't feel it. I have never felt this numb.

Not sure how I feel about H now, angry and so abandoned.

Starting to wonder if I should leave another Plan B letter....
If you want to send another Plan B letter through your intermediary, do so.

You have no obligation to try your best to save the marriage. Your husband gave you a free pass out of the marriage when he started his affair, and you're welcome to use it any time you like. However, if you do want to give your marriage the best possible chance to recover, and give yourself the least self-doubt, follow Dr. Harley's plan to the letter. Most affairs die within two years once the affair partner is forced to meet all of the unfaithful spouse's emotional needs.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hi Guys

Had some bad news yesterday.

I found out what it means about stopping Dads cancer treatment, the cancer has now progressed to a worse stage and they are probably giving him 12 months. Obviously I am very upset.

Dad had a long chat with about calling it a day and filing for divorce, he thinks I should contact H to meet this week and say unless we can commit y
to sorting out marriage then I intend to file for divorce. My dad just wants to see me in a better situation. I am getting a lot of pressure from my 2 sisters and mother to end the marriage.

I feel so much anger towards H right now and feel so let down. I am so confused.

I have now changed the locks and blocked his number.

Hello Harmony,

Just some thoughts on your post. First, I will tell you that the "preferred" method of demise in my family is a sudden heart attack. It has its upside, but the downside is one doesn't have the time to say and do the things that one would like before the end comes. You have that opportunity, make the most of it and rejoice in it. Celebrate your Dad's life with him and I think you will make his passing easier on him and yourself. You have been blessed and you need to see that.

Ok, end of sermon. Let's get to you and your H. I like your father's advice. I understand that he is saying this because he doesn't want to leave untill you are settled. However, I also think his advice is well suited to your situation. You both are avoiding conflict and it is time for this to stop. YOu have been away from H long enough and you have done enough work to both see things more clearly and to have a better understanding of who you are and what you want/need out of a marriage and life. If you wait until there are no feelings left, then there is no need to see your H, just file. If there are feelings left, but you are emotionally more steady NOW IS THE TIME TO MEET WITH HIM. Meet someplace neutral and see what is going on, and then make a decision. Your Dad's advice offers you options now, later there won't be any options.

It is your call. I will close by saying that I am so sorry for the news you have received about your Dad. But, at the same time I am glad that you and he as well as the rest of your family have time to enjoy one another and say the things that need to be said.

You are Blessed.

JL
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Just some thoughts on your post. First, I will tell you that the "preferred" method of demise in my family is a sudden heart attack. It has its upside, but the downside is one doesn't have the time to say and do the things that one would like before the end comes. You have that opportunity, make the most of it and rejoice in it. Celebrate your Dad's life with him and I think you will make his passing easier on him and yourself. You have been blessed and you need to see that.

x2

I lost my dad last summer. I had been traveling a lot for work and wasn't able to see him much for the first part of the year. The best advice I have for you is to spend as much time as you possibly can with your dad. As JL said, celebrate his life with him.
Harmony, does your Dad have hospice care? If so you should talk to one of the counselors, they can help you with dealing with his passing.

When my wife was passing from Cancer also about a year and a half ago, I needed all the help I could get. She happened to be in a lot of pain also, so it was nessesary to have support.


If you ever want to post about it, feel free and I know how much I needed people who understood and have been through it around at that time. I don't think anyone cares if its not marriage related, its you related.

As far as plan B letter and WH issues, I think you should write a thought out and complete one and let us tailor it for you before you send it to him. If you are going to do this partly at Dads advice, I think it will bless him to see his daughter put it in words what she expects from her marriage, or future relationships. Think about it, it could be something that really gives him peace at this time. Let him see the letter too.

Then of course, give it to WH and stand by it wholly like its your own personal declaration of independance.

If you are going to D, still give him the letter, so you can be sure inside that you did all to save the marriage. If you don't you might second guess yourself later, and cause yourself more heartache and confusion.

I know you want to be fair, and that is all you can do for him. lay down the conditions and give him a chance to recover. Your Dad will like it too.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Thanks Guys

Just feel a bit numb, need to be even stronger now for Dad, although I don't feel it. I have never felt this numb....

Im ussually like that too. When my Gram died my parents both cried on my shoulder at the gravesite, at the same time. I had to go for a walk and cry later by myself.

I am not sure why that is. Seems like at times of crisis I keep it together, and break down later. I think its survival instinct, adrenaline, and conditioning, but I don't like it cuz it has PTSD and/or 'Past conditional response" written all over it. But yes, it makes you feel numb, and sometimes strange too, like there is something wrong with you. Don't worry there isn't.
(((((Harmony))))

Losing your Dad is gonna be tough. It hurts for a long time. Spend this time letting your Dad know how much he means to you and thank God for the opportunity to do just that.
Hey Harmony -- wanted to let you know I am still watching and rooting for you.

I ordered the Cloud & Townsend Boundaries work book to do over the holiday here. My H doesn't want me to read or do any sort of self help stuff --(yea, yea, I know I shouldn't be doing it if he doesn't approve -- NOW I know why I have such a big closet! Sometimes I can disappear in there for 30 minutes without him noticing).

I think it might be helpful though and will post you my thoughts.

Harmony, do me a favor. Don't ever be me. I say the same thing to my D21 and have for years. Don't ever be in a relationship again where you have to hide everything, including the fact that you want a better relationship. You can't know how sick it gets until you are hiding in a closet reading books about M because you know your H will totally blast off in ways that might hurt your children -- not you because you no longer care about you -- but your children, if he finds what you are reading. That sort of fear -- it's horrible beyond what you can imagine.

This may not be MB -- but walk firmly and quickly away from your H. In time, you will hit your knees every night giving thanks to God for the strength you found to do that.

Hi All

Thanks for your messages of support.

JL

Yes agree my dad has given me some sound advice, however some further events has happened with H.

I went out last night and he came back to the house to get some stuff. I hadn�t blocked his number on my work mobile as he never used this and he called me and I answered. I spoke to him, and he was annoyed that he could not get in the house. I explained to him that I put a bolt on the door for extra security. He said he would have to come back to the house in the morning. He then went very quiet on the phone and sounded like he was getting upset and I ended the conversation. He then sent me a message saying;

�I�ve had a thought do we have a spare key for the back door and then it won�t be a problem for me to get in. P.S that�s a good idea about the bolt if your worried about people breaking in.�

He turned up at the house this morning whilst I was getting ready for work. I kept it light and asked him how we was doing, he said OK, then he said well not really OK at all, pretty bad actually. I said I am sorry to hear that, he then started crying and got very upset. He seemed very agitated and angry, and I was very calm.

Some of the things he said;

He could not believe that I had not contacted him on his birthday
That he had been sleeping in his car or at his parents
That I had been bad mouthing him to family and friends and saying what a terrible H he had been
That I didn�t have to worry about the money I had lent him he would give it to me in a couple of weeks.
That it is eating him up, me being in the house and we should just get it on the market and the D sorted out
That house prices have dropped dramatically and if we haven�t sold it in 4 months then we should rent it out
That we could have sold our house and bought a house together on the seafront if we were together
That his way of dealing with the A was with OW and that he destroyed things even more

I then thought here we go again, and started to walk away, he told me not to walk away and to stay and talk.

I tried to reason with him and explain my reasons behind the no contact and that I had not bad mouthed him and my family would support me in whatever decision I made and would welcome him back. I explained that the locks on the inside door were also were there to protect me from him, as he had come to the house drunk and intimidated me, he then said when was that? That was weird he couldn�t even remember.

He then went onto say, you just don�t get it Harmony, you slept with someone else 15 months after we got married and were in love with him. I just can�t get over it, and I have tried.

I tried to explain that I was not in love with OM, it was an addiction and I have no time for this other man and he took advantage of me and I let him and I should have communicated with you. Then H added, yeah but I am so scary (Sarcastic).

At some point during this, I told him the news I had about my Dad, he looked very upset then and said I am sorry to hear this. He then said I will leave you alone to get on with things.

Then he took a key for the back door, I wasn�t about to get into a fight with him over this so I just let him take it. He then made some polite conversation and asked me how my job was going? Then told me all about what he was upto learning to snowboard, and that he might take Dec off (he wanted me to ask what he was doing but I didn�t), and that he would probably go snowboarding 3 times. I then told him I had booked to go away in Jan and he said sarcasticly in a group, or just 4 of you? I ignored this and said Bye.

I am not sure where this leaves me, heartbroken I suppose. I so desparately wanted it to work and I guess this is a good as sign as any that he does not want the M.

This has left me very confused. He seems very angry, does not seem to want the M, and wants me to feel guilty but at the same time continues to contact me and does not want me to be with anyone else. I think he also does not want to accept any blame for this situation and that he justifies all his actions by my A. He does not seem to have �grown� at all in the 6 weeks he has been gone.

I just want to shake him and pull him out of this fog.

Can someone explain what is going on?

Oh and he seemed very bothered about people thinking he was a bad H and that I told people that he had hit me and treated me poorly. I guess in moments of anger I have vented to people, but overall I have been telling friends and family how much I love him and that this is not the H I knew and love this is him being hurt and confused.

I am so in conflict, part of me wants to fight for him, part of me wants to let go....

I believe we both bought our own issues into this M, I have spent so much time trying to learn, grow and change into a better person.

I want to send him a message saying,

" I am so completely in love with you, I think your wonderful".

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Hi Harmony,

I'm sorry to hear about your father. This must be really hard. hug

Quote
He could not believe that I had not contacted him on his birthday
That he had been sleeping in his car or at his parents
That I had been bad mouthing him to family and friends and saying what a terrible H he had been
That I didn�t have to worry about the money I had lent him he would give it to me in a couple of weeks.
That it is eating him up, me being in the house and we should just get it on the market and the D sorted out
That house prices have dropped dramatically and if we haven�t sold it in 4 months then we should rent it out
That we could have sold our house and bought a house together on the seafront if we were together
That his way of dealing with the A was with OW and that he destroyed things even more

It is all about him and the money. He doesn't really care about you and he certainly doesn't have a clue what he is doing.

You don't have the willpower to go absolutely dark on him, do you? You block his number on one phone, but you don't block on another. You change locks, and he has still the opportunity to get in. He KNOWS the loopholes in your plan and that way your plan B is really pointless. You seem to be a serious woman, but your H has this incredible power over you and make you look very unserious about your decisions.

He has not ended his affair, he has not ended any contact, not agreed to the plan of recovery. This is the aim of real plan B.

For the time remaining until you said you will decide your further actions, is it possible for you to rent a small place and seal the house? And go really dark on him? Or do you think that your plan B is already over and pointless anyway, it doesn't matter you will decide to divorce him anyway?

Hi Niitse

He doesn't have a clue what he is doing, the reason I broke the Plan B contact was because of the situation with my Dad. I would have stayed in Plan B until the New Year, then filed.

I am going to suggest we meet in mutual territory but ask him that we don't discuss any marriage issues. Then I will let him know where I am that either we commit to rebuilding the M, or we move ahead and bring things to a close, end the M and sell the house.

I know what his response will be. He is so full of anger and hate he is all over the place.

Harmony.
Hey Harmony!

Very sorry to hear about your father. Thoughts and prayers go out to you and your family.

Also, sorry to hear that you broke your Plan B. It's obvious that it has put you into a tailspin again. That's exactly why you have to remain dark.

Your WH hasn't changed at all. He has so much work to do and he hasn't even begun. My assessment of him is that he will never be willing to do the true soul-searching type work on himself to make the changes that are needed for him to become a good husband and partner. He is very broken and he still chooses to blame that on what you did to him. He is a victim. He is full of justifications. This is a very bad place for him to be mentally.

How much time do you want to wait? I see a meeting with him as pointless and you are only setting yourself up for more heartbreak. Why would you want to do that to yourself? C'mon Harmony. It's time to summon your inner strength and move on. There is a good life for you out there just waiting to be started if you have the courage to chase after it. Remember, that bio clock is still ticking. If that is the impetus that you need to get your butt in gear then listen to it.
Originally Posted by mindshare
Very sorry to hear about your father. Thoughts and prayers go out to you and your family.


Thank you Mindshare.

Originally Posted by mindshare
Your WH hasn't changed at all. He has so much work to do and he hasn't even begun. My assessment of him is that he will never be willing to do the true soul-searching type work on himself to make the changes that are needed for him to become a good husband and partner. He is very broken and he still chooses to blame that on what you did to him. He is a victim. He is full of justifications. This is a very bad place for him to be mentally.

I know, I am very disappointed, he does not seem to have learnt anything at all. He believes his behaviour is justified because of the hurt I inflicted on him. He just seems to be even more angrier than before he left, very angry about not being able to get into the house, the fact I have not contacted him and having paranoid thoughts about me with OM.

Originally Posted by mindshare
How much time do you want to wait? I see a meeting with him as pointless and you are only setting yourself up for more heartbreak. Why would you want to do that to yourself? C'mon Harmony. It's time to summon your inner strength and move on. There is a good life for you out there just waiting to be started if you have the courage to chase after it. Remember, that bio clock is still ticking. If that is the impetus that you need to get your butt in gear then listen to it.


Time to let go, sometimes I wonder how I will be able to deal with that losing my H and my father possibly in the same year, writing that makes me cry. I know I will do, I have learnt to. Another meeting won't be much different than how it was this morning and I have grown up so much I have left him even further behind.

I feel sorry for him if I a honest, he is in so much inner turmoil and conflict and want to help him be a better person. I just don't get where he is coming from at all.

Harmony.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I feel sorry for him if I a honest, he is in so much inner turmoil and conflict and want to help him be a better person. I just don't get where he is coming from at all.

Do you not see that this is causing you to remain 'stuck'? This is one of the dynamics in abusive relationships. You cannot fix him and you should not feel sorry for him. You need to think about Harmony at this point. You need to make decisions based on what is best for you. Put Harmony first.
I hope you understand that plan B is to protect you. He got what he wanted (your attention), and now he will go home and schtoop the other woman.

You are an emotional mess, he took what he wated, (key = access and your attention.. and watching you pine for him... ego ego ego)
He gave you nothing of real value in return. As long as he is sctooping the OW, he never will. i hate to see you back at square one.

You do not understand, he is HAPPY that you had the meeting-- you seem miserable. He likes that. He is sick. anyone who enjoys inflicting this kind of pain is sick.

I am sorry, I am not good at 2 x 4's... I hope I made sense to you.

Long talks with your WH is not in any plan B.
Hi Barbie

I agree with you are saying that he is sick and that it was about his ego and having access to the house.

I need to know what is happeningnow, I can't sit around in PLan B for an amount of time.

I am confused and have some thinking to do, shall I stay in Plan B, if so for how long, or do I file for D...

H
There is ABSOLUTELY NO POINT in having any contact with your WH.

All the excuses for it are in your head.

The house issues = Lawyer.
Future divorce plans = Ditto.
Your dad (so sorry btw) = yours to contend with.
The keys = change the back lock, again.

Face it. You have absolutely not ONE reason to see him. Except you get the "pleasure" of viewing him. As you have so elequently pointed out ... this never has resulted in anything GOOD for you.

--- Everything else is hyperbolie.
He does not even remember having sex with you? How degrading. (you know this is a lie... he said it to twist thet knife) You need to do some IC to address why this person has such control over you.
I think you need to find a caretaker. Every time you get around him, you seem to lose your objectivity and wonder what happened. I don't know why that is, I just worry about you, and we can't be there to clarify things for you when you have to deal with him.

First of all, would you like to know what is happening with him? I can consult the crystal ball, and make a few guesses based on what I see, but know up front it only a guess about what he thinks, and you should be concerned for what he does.

OK.. well, he met you a few years ago, and you had both an dream of a family and were a responsible girl who seemed very understanding and sweet. He was also attracted to you, and you to him, so things got seriuos, and you shared heartaches and fears with each other, slept together, and eventually thought marriage was the place to go next.

He, seeing that you wanted the better things in life, and your desire to nurture and work for those things, believed it was what he wanted/needed at the same time. You were not pushy and demanding, but yet someone who seemed to understand and have compassion about who he was, and what he has gone through. You also did not make any demands or have any expectations of him except that he love you.

It was a dream come true for him. This beautiful girl let him do whatever he wanted to appease his own insecurities and ego problems, with only a occasional whimper about her life. He enjoyed the power, and felt like he was home.

You, living in hope that what you did would be appreciated, and that what you gave would come back to you in the form of someone examining himself and changing, wiated for it to happen, as he spun his wheels trying to fill a need inside that ate at him. He knew he should be doing something for you, and he thought he was, because you stayed and provided the framework for relationship, a couple human beings living together, and that is all he ever had, so it was normal for him. See he has been used to that as a child, and that is home to him. He thought his change from doing drugs and chasing women was a great sacrifice, and that was all he knew he had to bring to the relationship for now. He thought he was doing nothing wrong, and doing all he should, along with doing what he wanted, and ignoring your pleading to spend more time with you, and build a relationship. He didn't have a clue.

You, well we have covered that allready what happened and why you didn't clarify what you wanted, and also why you probably had little respect for your marriage because you never recognized or were shown a good one. Also the way you react or implement your personal rerlationships shows that you are just as confused as he is, but in a different way. We can go into that later as to why, but just for clarity now lets say that.

When you had the affair he felt betrayed. The relationship he had gotten so used to and grounded him somehow was now revealed in his mind as allways being a lie, and his inner security issues took over again, and he got mean and selfish. Cut his own throat, started drinking and using women again, because that control is all he trusts. He got scared and its as simple as that, but hey, Men aren't scared are they, he had something to prove again. When he did his self assesment when he got insecure, scared, afraid,(whatever buzzword and politically correct term you wanna use) he could no longer say, "well at least i have a women at home who loves me, I must be doing something right". That turned out to be a lie.

So the self respect you gave him, which he had not yet earned BTW, was torn away by your A. Its OK harmony, it was not real anyways, he needs to get it for himself now, without you as an excuse as to feeling how he does, just like anyone, who learns that they can't blame anyone for thier actions, when its time to grow up.

So what about the Plan B letter? Your time left with Dad? WH has chosen to be in his version of freedom and sublimation of things that allows him to avoid the things he needs to address, and in that emotinal response, He procrastinates because he feels like it. He won't try to change until looks past himself, and where in his life does he have an example of that? When he comes to the end of himself, maybe he will search for some help.

You need to get him that letter, and go dark Plan B. You both need to learn how to take care of yourselves alone first, before you can take care of each other. Then if you want to take on the challange of marriage, which you might at that time respect the depth of it instead of using it as a utilitarian way to get what you want, the tools are here, in the bible, in the wisdom of those who are working and fighting for it too.

Whats going on with him? He is going though withdrawl from his enabler, you. With his habits and mind-set, it was inevitable.

What going on with you? You are bouncing back from a relationship that had some very real problems, and also learning, I hope, that it is a good thing you can never go back to what it was. I think you want to go back, and would take him back without demanding the work needed. So I really only am worried you will accept that, and not get a better life.

I think your Dad is worried about that too. Make a letter, show it to Dad, and DON'T ANSWER WHs CALLS!! Every time you see him you come here wondering what happened, and in the post is the statement that you felt like he was getting upset, and that is why you did....(whatever). Do you ever get mad at yourself? When are you gonna let something outside of your emotions and your interpretation of love help you?

Like they say in AA, and I quote this from Melody lane, "Your best thinking got you here". You don't have a H you can believe has your best interests at heart anymore. You have a Dad but right now you can't worry him more with involving him in this turmaoil, you need to show him you will be alright and you are making good decsions. Why not trust God, or if that is to heady and confusing for you, trust the people with success in thier marriage. I don't mean they have lots of money and everything looks good while they are living separate lives from there spouse, while living together either. Trust these people here, and the disciplines you KNOW are what you want in a marrige that Hr H has laid out so creatively in his work. Then DO them twoxfour
Originally Posted by mindshare
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I feel sorry for him if I a honest, he is in so much inner turmoil and conflict and want to help him be a better person. I just don't get where he is coming from at all.

Do you not see that this is causing you to remain 'stuck'? This is one of the dynamics in abusive relationships. You cannot fix him and you should not feel sorry for him. You need to think about Harmony at this point. You need to make decisions based on what is best for you. Put Harmony first.

Oh no! Can't do that! Harmony only has value based on what she does for others. Putting herself first? Well that is just selfish! What does that mean anyways? Catering to every emotion? Finding another Man and more busy work in putting on the fig leaf to hide the shame of failure?

I bet your an excellent employee Harmony, and we all see your potential. But what did JL say about potential? You should read that again. Mindshare hit the nail on the head about the "hook" of abusive relationships, I know because my late wife abused herself, and everyone around her, masking it as her right. I was stuck because I could not leave my children in that tinderbox, and secondary was my own comfort and marriage.

I lived that hell, and when my DD was 2 left for two years and told her it was over, even though she was pregnant for my son when i did. Late wife thanked me after, even though she still relapsed because I didn't stay strong enough in my demands for her to go to AA, and she thought it was some supernatural continuation that brought us back together. She left God and his people at AA out of the equation. A aquaintance of mine who is in AA and is a leader says" Anything is possible with God and the twelve steps". He says you need them both, well of course.

When I was in my separation I still loved my wife, I still missed her and what i saw good in her, and I also wanted to help her. Hell I still miss her and what at times was good in our life. She was a very complex woman with many gifts and had a great amount of compassion. That was her gift, and her undoing, because others would use those things she would give, and tell her how wonderful she was, untill she found her identity in helping others, and never helping herself. Then when anything scared her, she would run back to look for attention and drink to fill the emptiness that was now a gaping hole that was created from the idolization she once recieved.

If I had MB and the support I believe I would have made better choices, if i would have listened, that might have saved my wifes life, rather than just the marriage. I would trade her life for our marriage any day, the marriage just wasn't as important as her life, or the loss my children have had to suffer. It doesn't matter if she found a life with someone else, at least she might be alive, and conquered her addiction.


Why do you think I am posting to you? I want to help you and your WH avoid that kind of misery. If I had the support of MB when I was separated I would have really taken care of myself better internally as well as physically. It wasn't enought to escape the drama back then, I needed to accept that I could not help her, and i was an enabler by accepting the behavior. That is all I learned and I fell short of taking care of myself. I should have insisted on more before I came back, not just the promise of a dry drunk who still had a lot of emotional problems. True she acted better, and was healthier, but just below the surface the insecurity was still there, and she refused to see it, because her gifts hid it, and she could pull a rabbit out of a hat and had smoke and mirrors, and a lot of words, being idolized replaced being honest and accepting she had weaknesses.
Hiya Constant

I want to be clear that I am not interested at taking him back at any cost, it will be a disaster and I will be unhappy.

I have not done anything wrong today, I was merely took the opportunity to speak to H to see where he was at, as per JLs suggestion. I needed to know what was going on.

As it was he is no further forward, still full of anger towards me, still blames me for everything, still full of self justification, and still no commitment to recovery and no contact with other women, in his words today 'they offered him more support that I ever have'. It was all woe is me, feel sorry for me me me, its all your fault.

People ask why he has this hold over me? I find him intimidating and try to keep the peace instead of standing upto him I suppose, and I don't like to see people in distress. Call it what you like, but I don't think that is a bad quality. At the end of the day I want him to be ok too.

Where I am now, is that I am going to go back into Dark Plan B with the intention of filing for D.

My H is so far away from being honest with himself and others, it could take him months to realise. I can't wait that long. That is me being 'selfish' now smile

I love him but I can't change him, and I can't put my life and my desire on hold to have a family any longer.


Harmony


Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I find him intimidating and try to keep the peace instead of standing upto him I suppose......

This is a very sad statement Harmony. It's all to common with people that have been abused. Wouldn't you just love to have a relationship with someone that cared for you and viewed as an equal partner and NEVER intimidated you? Because, that is possible in your future.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
....and I don't like to see people in distress. Call it what you like, but I don't think that is a bad quality. At the end of the day I want him to be ok too.

Nothing wrong with this quality. In fact, none of us like to see you in distress which is why we are taking time from our busy lives to post to you and try to help you.


Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Where I am now, is that I am going to go back into Dark Plan B with the intention of filing for D.

This is good Harmony. Personally, I don't see why you wouldn't just file immediately and get this process going. There is a new life waiting out there for you.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I love him but I can't change him, and I can't put my life and my desire on hold to have a family any longer. That is me being 'selfish' now smile

Amen to this sister!! Couldn't agree more!! hurray

So get on with it!!!
Harmony,

I am not telling you to go back, but I am telling you that you have not told your H the truth and you have not explained to him your thinking. This is bad for him and for you. He may be abusive, but he is also deeply hurt and confused.

You said
Quote
Some of the things he said;

He could not believe that I had not contacted him on his birthday
That he had been sleeping in his car or at his parents
That I had been bad mouthing him to family and friends and saying what a terrible H he had been
That I didn�t have to worry about the money I had lent him he would give it to me in a couple of weeks.
That it is eating him up, me being in the house and we should just get it on the market and the D sorted out
That house prices have dropped dramatically and if we haven�t sold it in 4 months then we should rent it out
That we could have sold our house and bought a house together on the seafront if we were together
That his way of dealing with the A was with OW and that he destroyed things even more

I then thought here we go again, and started to walk away, he told me not to walk away and to stay and talk.

I tried to reason with him and explain my reasons behind the no contact and that I had not bad mouthed him and my family would support me in whatever decision I made and would welcome him back. I explained that the locks on the inside door were also were there to protect me from him, as he had come to the house drunk and intimidated me, he then said when was that? That was weird he couldn�t even remember.

Quote
He then went onto say, you just don�t get it Harmony, you slept with someone else 15 months after we got married and were in love with him. I just can�t get over it, and I have tried.

I tried to explain that I was not in love with OM, it was an addiction and I have no time for this other man and he took advantage of me and I let him and I should have communicated with you. Then H added, yeah but I am so scary (Sarcastic).


See the last quote? Notice that I bolded this quote? If a BS came here and said what he said, that BS would be getting all sorts of help although we would all know he is not and could not be a perfect man. He equates sex with love, and so do you or the OW wouldn't bother you so much.

Harmony, no matter your decision on your H, you need to learn something or develop it further, it is called empathy. I know every one is "dump the bum", but you started this mess with YOUR decisions.

There is not painless way to end a marriage, but there are better ways than others. You two need to talk and I mean really talk. Do it someplace "safe" a restruant or something, but do it. He needs to know how you feel about his behavior and he needs to know that you acknowledge that you messed up and he has every right to interpret your actions as those of a woman that "loves" an OM. If you end it, do it by talking even if he doesn't want to hear it or you don't.

He has stated that he cannot get over it. Fine, then end it, but end it with a discussion of what went wrong. You both share in the "what went wrong" part and perhaps you will both learn something from this that will help you.

Please think about this...carefully.

God Bless,

JL
JL

I wasn't expecting that.

I don't know what to say, I can't cope with facing him and getting more rejection. I love him, I messsed up = he doesn't want me.

I can't sit in front of him and hear it again. He said he can't get over it, I can't be near him and him not want me again. I told him today how much his treatment has hurt me.

I did empathise and he walked all over me.

Can you exaplin why if he cannot get over it, then how come he won't leave me alone? Is this a sign I should not give up? He is so angry with me.

Thanks as ever for your ongoing support and advice. I just need to understand thats all.

Harmony
Originally Posted by Just Learning
he has every right to interpret your actions as those of a woman that "loves" an OM.


I struggle with saying that. If I admit to that, then he will believe that.
Harmony,

I know you weren't expecting that and that is the problem. It is easy for folks to say Plan B and/or divorce, but... what if you don't want the marriage? Why plan B? What do you hope to accomplish in plan B,that your H become a mindreader? What if he gives up OW or OWs for you, is that going to be good enough? And yes he is still contacting you because he doesn't know how you see things NOW. If he knew then he may well just leave.

You said
Quote
I don't know what to say, I can't cope with facing him and getting more rejection. I love him, I messsed up = he doesn't want me.

I can't sit in front of him and hear it again. He said he can't get over it, I can't be near him and him not want me again. I told him today how much his treatment has hurt me.

I did empathise and he walked all over me.

Can you exaplin why if he cannot get over it, then how come he won't leave me alone? Is this a sign I should not give up? He is so angry with me.
Who said anything about rejection. I said talk with him about how YOU see things. I said for you to have a conversation with him about you, your life, how you see him, and what you feel about his actions. He needs to know these things and YOU need to say them. As it is you are just running.

This conversation has nothing to do with reconcilliation, it has to do with he hearing from you your thoughts and your view of things. You have heard his as you posted and as I quoted earlier. But, I will say his points are the ones that many BS would list as well.

Harmony, you have your boundries, but do you have your intestinal fortitude (guts)? You need those to live a good life as well.

The answer to why he cannot get over it is but still contacts you is simple and he is angry, is simple.

He is angry because he is deeply hurt. He cannot get over your betrayal for the reason he is having a hard time letting go...he loves you. But, Harmony, often love is not enough.

You may love a drug addict but the addict is still addicted and will do what an addict does.

It is not for me to say if this marriage is over, but I would guess it is because you really don't want to be married to him, and yet you love him. He cannot handle what you did and yet he loves you.

Hence my statement that you two need to talk, not for reconcilliation, but for closure on what is hurting you both, what you think of each other, of how you have grown and learned, of your new boundaries and how they will not allow you to live with the H you had.

At that point, you can leave. You have communicated with him and told him of your love, your boundaries, and what you expect from live. He has already told you most of this, but you need to hear the rest and then you will know you have made the right decision no matter what it is.

Harley states in his books that he believes in POJA even when divorcing. He states even a divorce should be POJA'd.

I hope this clears up the confusion. You are strong enough to do this, you just need to see what we see.

God Bless,

JL
I touched on that a few times harmony, and JL saw to that you had a hard time communicating very difficult things early on in your posts. Others have also just plainly said, "Do this or that" and have been frustrated when you didn't, thinking you might not be seriuos. I thought you were just scared and in a habit of avoiding these things, and I still think that.

You must end this right, if that is your choice, and it is possible, with some help from friends. It is for you too, that you do this right, and open, and honest without fear and intimidation. You don't have to be careful of his emotions or reactions, if you write down what you want to say, and either have sombody be thier with you as you read it, (like in a restaurant with your friend a couple tables away), or if you have a good friend who can speak for you when you start to clam up, maybe they could be do it for you when you froze.

Am I right about that? Does your mind just go away and your thoughts change to fearful things in situations like this? Do you start on a conversation path and find yourself reacting to what you think he is thinking? Are you performing? Are you scared? Its OK, I do too.

If I find it important what they think and thier reaction to what I say might cause problems. I try to be fearless and say what is on my mind and let it lie there even if it is uncomfortable, but many times they don't see my point of view, and an argument brews in front of my eyes, then I try to explain more than is nessesary to not be misunderstood. Its normal when you are rattled and afraid, but its not the ideal situation to communicate, and its intimidating. It also can get you sidetracked and you can forget to cover other important issues, especially if it turns into an argument.


Speaking spiritually, I feel Satan is the author of fear and doubt. If there was anything that effected me extremly as a child, and even as an adult to some degree, it would have to have been unrealistic extreme fear. The people who propagated it and fed it did not conspire together to lay it on me, but its effects seemed that way sometimes, and I had trouble beliving there was a God who would allow it. Then one day it dawned on me after I had conquered some childhood fear at 17, and i wondered how I could have been so fooled? I realized it was something meant to ruin my life, and it may have come from treatment from others, my misunderstanding, and imagination, but it really for a time did parylyse me and seem unsurmountable. I wondered where it came from, even if people did not feed it knowingly, it had the power to destroy me if I let it, and it was my biggest enemy. It was spiritual, emotional, and invisible. I thought of who and why did it get a hold of me and why did I let it make me miserable and almost kill me, and I thought of Satan. It was the only answer to what existed in man that I fell victim to, and why other would use it also to attack and use me if they could get away with it and justify it somehow. It wasn't those people who I was once afraid of and thier ignorance and selfishness that was powerful, unless I gave them the power, they had none. It had to be something malicious that was intent on destroying me, but gutless to ever show its face, and it exsisted mostly because I allowed it to.

There is somewhere said in scripture that one day when we are in heaven and Satan is cast down into the lake of fire, we will look at him and see the little worm he is, and say, THAT?,is what I was afraid of?! From my life and the point of view I had at that time, I totally understand that

I am telling you this because I understand how deadly unfound fear is, and how it will destroy your life and happiness if you let it.

There is a saying in MB, "Your marriage can survive an argument but it wont survive if there is an affair partner" They are talking about "ongoing" affair partners, and many marriages have survived and with work have thrived after affairs. Being afraid of conflict is like being afraid of life and learning. I just don't know what it is your afraid of, and how to help you see that the fear is gonna win, if you don't get angry enough to fight it. Many times that happens in life, and we fear things that are allready gone, or make them bigger than they ever really were.

He needs this Harmony, and you do too. The plan B letter that we have been talking about well maybe he won't throw the next one away. In it will be a lot of answers for him, and you will never regret being honest. You mentioned understanding where he is coming from, but I think it is more important to understand how to express where you are coming from, without fear or getting sidetracked.

Thats what plan B letters are famous for and I think you still should write him one again. Face to face is gonna be hard no matter what, but the letter gives you something to talk about and is grounding for you.

There is allways hope for reconciliation, but I am concerned because you have talked in extremes since you came, and it was allways, "should i get a d and move on?" or asking "what is going on with him?" It seems open and honest communication and POJA has allways been a problem with you two. Each living in thier own world and trying to make it with someone they didn't really know. This action of communicating with each other is at the core of relationships, and what we miss most when we had that at one time, and it slips away somehow. The sex just is an extension of communication, but when we lose fidelity also, where communication once existed, the pain and frustration is the most you will ever feel. Its like God and everything He represents has been torn out of you.

If you allready decided to get a D, then at least give him something to work with as he processes that.

See, we all would like to avoid the drama of you getting to this point before reconciliation, if it was going to happen.

Thats why we said "Good plan B letter, Dark plan B with no contact at all" It was supposed to simulate what it would be like if it went to divorce, and get him to take you seriuosly about working on the marriage. But for whatever reason you didn't see the wisdom in what we said, and you let him have contact and come over, and throw his fits.

When Scotty said "your plan B is so full of holes" she was making an attempt to help you see it also.

Now he is not gonna have a letter with your mind, thoughts, and feelings to referance, or any conditions and direction for him to follow, even if he just wants to figure out where he went wrong, so he can have some peace later in life. At least give him the straight story out of your mouth, although it wont be as much help as it would if it was written out for furthur referance.

My heart hurts for both of you. I truly hope you take what JL and I agree with about this seriuosly. Sure I will be upset with you if you don't, but mostly because I see things ending badly for you too. If you don't learn how to communicate what you think and feel in these situations. Now or in the future, there will allways be something hard to say to someone, but you must say them, if you truly care about them, good or bad. The truth works.

Its allways darkest before the dawn, and your dawn is coming, I hope for your H too.
Harmony,

This is about your growth. You cannot be a good woman, a good wife, a good mother, if you are not strong enough to face life. You do this on your own a few times and you will appreciate a partner that will stand with you. In fact, you will insist that your partner is willing and strong enough to stand with you.

Time to stop running, time to start communicating. You can do this.

God Bless,

JL
Originally Posted by Just Learning
.. In fact, you will insist that your partner is willing and strong enough to stand with you....

Aint that the truth.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Originally Posted by Just Learning
he has every right to interpret your actions as those of a woman that "loves" an OM.


I struggle with saying that. If I admit to that, then he will believe that.

I was re-reading and I came upon this. I was thinking, is that an example of you being responsible for his interpretation of what is real? or what to feel?

Just wondering and food for thought.
Hi Guys

Yes I will face the situation and arrange a meet up in a suitable place before I make a final decision, and discuss everything you said. I have a feeling it will fall on deaf ears. The reason it will fall on deaf ears is because if it is not what he wants to hear, he doesnt want to hear it at all. He finds it difficult to see others point of view.

Thing is, this has been going on for 20 months now, since I first had the A, which lasted 6 weeks, from me leaving the house until me coming back and begging him to take me back which took 6 months for him to let me move back into the house.

I have had more peace in the last 6 weeks, in a way I think it is better that I am in Plan B hearing the news about my Dad, rather than H being here offering me little support and making a point of not offering me any because I don't deserve it.

The last 18 months since I left have been hell. The last 8 months since he found out the real reason I left last year (the A) have been more so. The most painful of all of this, was him 'punishing me'. He wanted to see me suffer. He made me watch him come and go with not 1 but 4 OW right in front of my face. That is 4 OW that I know about, you can probably double that.

The pain he inflicted on me having to watch him pack a weekend bag to take OW3 away to a romantic hotel. The pain of seeing a hotel bill for an overnight stay at a hotel round the corner, when he told me he had been to see his brother in London for some 'time out' because he was suffering from stress and anxiety due to the A, and then lay in bed whilst I comforted him, when in reality he had been up all night humping OW4 so wanted to sleep. The pain of not knowing whether he would come home at night, so I stayed awake until he walked through the door. The night when he went missing before I started my job, and when I went out of my mind with worry that he had done something 'stupid' because of his state of mind, and when I managed to call of his friends and track him down and when he came home at 1am was happy and grinning because it showed I cared because I was worried about him. That was also when OW1 had phoned me, because my H was her bestest friend and she was worried about him. Whilst he stayed out when I had made him dinner, at the pub with OW2.

Maybe too much has happened for either of us able to forgive. Maybe that having this time on my own I know that I don't NEED anyone and I will actually be ok. I could forgive him, if he accepted where he messed up. I can't go back with me taking the blame for everything.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
What if he gives up OW or OWs for you, is that going to be good enough?


I want to have a great M and happy relationship, I cannot have that with H, if all he is willing to do is give up the OW and come back home. I would want him to be remorseful for the pain he inflicted on me, I would want him to commit to a monthly session with SH and I would want him to seek IC for anger and why he cannot demonstrate that in a constructive way.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
Who said anything about rejection. I said talk with him about how YOU see things. I said for you to have a conversation with him about you, your life, how you see him, and what you feel about his actions. He needs to know these things and YOU need to say them. As it is you are just running.


I wouldn't say I am running, I just feel that it is a waste of my time where I will just get dragged down again with all my shortcomings. I will do it ofcourse as it will be good for my growth process. If I feel like I talking to a brick wall what then? Do I just get up and walk away? If it is not what he wants to hear, then he doesn't want to hear it all. He is not interested in my 'growth' or 'learning' or 'boundaries' he laughs at all that.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
He is angry because he is deeply hurt. He cannot get over your betrayal for the reason he is having a hard time letting go...he loves you. But, Harmony, often love is not enough.


Yes I would like to think it is because he loves me, but it is hard to believe that. I would like to think that but more often than not, I feel he is angry because I messed up and ruined his 'perfect life' for him, I am an embarassment to be hidden away, that he is more worried about what other people think.

[quote=ConstantProcess]

When Scotty said "your plan B is so full of holes" she was making an attempt to help you see it also.

[quote]

I think where I got confused about Plan B, was the advice I was getting here and from SH. I told SH that I was advised to change the locks and block his number and he said to leave it and not do anything more.

I am disappointed that I sound negative about H right now, but I think I am feeling very angry. I will cal him to arrange a meet up, I will make sure I am feeling more positive by then!!

Harmony.
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Originally Posted by Just Learning
he has every right to interpret your actions as those of a woman that "loves" an OM.


I struggle with saying that. If I admit to that, then he will believe that.

I was re-reading and I came upon this. I was thinking, is that an example of you being responsible for his interpretation of what is real? or what to feel?

Just wondering and food for thought.


I guess that is where we/i struggle. For example, I will say to him I didn't leave the house for OM, I left because I knew I had messed up and by having strong feelings for someone else must mean ther eis a fundamental problem with the M. Then H, will go know H you left because you wanted to be be with OM. Well no I left because I felt that there was a fundamental problem with the M, and that it couldn't be fixed. I will tell him that til I am blue in the face and he won;t have it.

Thanks Constant

Harmony
Oh Boy!

Harmony I have a lot to tell you and I'll start with: YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM. So stop acting like one! Got that?

Let work through what you said:
Quote
Yes I will face the situation and arrange a meet up in a suitable place before I make a final decision, and discuss everything you said.
Good this is what you should do.

Quote
I have a feeling it will fall on deaf ears. The reason it will fall on deaf ears is because if it is not what he wants to hear, he doesnt want to hear it at all. He finds it difficult to see others point of view.
And you care because? Frankly, you don't care if it falls on deaf ears, and that is the point. Do you want to remain with a man that is deaf to you? Do you want to have input into a relationship you have with a man? You are going to tell him how you feel, what you have learned, how you have changed, and what you expect from him (boundaries). This is NOT a debate, it is a statement of fact on your part. You then should listen to him. If you don't like what you hear and he seems to not consider what you have saidFILE FOR DIVORCE. Life really can be this simple, IF you become an adult about this.
Quote
Maybe too much has happened for either of us able to forgive. Maybe that having this time on my own I know that I don't NEED anyone and I will actually be ok. I could forgive him, if he accepted where he messed up. I can't go back with me taking the blame for everything.
Ok, forgiveness is for you to give to move away from where you are. Forgiveness does not mean this marriage works or won't work. You can forgive him for everything he has done, and still not want to be married to him. He can forgive you for you're affair and still not be able to live with it. Forgiveness is a good thing. Put in mathematical terms it is a necessary but not sufficient requirement for recovery.
Quote
I want to have a great M and happy relationship, I cannot have that with H, if all he is willing to do is give up the OW and come back home. I would want him to be remorseful for the pain he inflicted on me, I would want him to commit to a monthly session with SH and I would want him to seek IC for anger and why he cannot demonstrate that in a constructive way.
Tell him that. It is really simple.
Quote
I wouldn't say I am running, I just feel that it is a waste of my time where I will just get dragged down again with all my shortcomings. I will do it ofcourse as it will be good for my growth process. If I feel like I talking to a brick wall what then? Do I just get up and walk away? If it is not what he wants to hear, then he doesn't want to hear it all. He is not interested in my 'growth' or 'learning' or 'boundaries' he laughs at all that.
Then you should not be married to him. Find a man that actually cares about you and YOU actually care about. You don't like your H much do you?
Quote
Yes I would like to think it is because he loves me, but it is hard to believe that. I would like to think that but more often than not, I feel he is angry because I messed up and ruined his 'perfect life' for him, I am an embarassment to be hidden away, that he is more worried about what other people think.
This like many of the statements you have made is a DJ. You don't know how he feels you just know how he acts. Further, if he did not care he wouldn't still be hanging around. You can end thatfile.

Harmony, you keep waiting for him to decide, and yet it is YOUR decision. You talk with him and if you get answers and responses you don't like, then leave. Your job is to change your perspectives, your boundaries, your approach to life, not his. That is his problem.

God Bless,

JL
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..I guess that is where we/i struggle. For example, I will say to him I didn't leave the house for OM, I left because I knew I had messed up and by having strong feelings for someone else must mean ther eis a fundamental problem with the M. Then H, will go know H you left because you wanted to be be with OM. Well no I left because I felt that there was a fundamental problem with the M, and that it couldn't be fixed. I will tell him that til I am blue in the face and he won;t have it.
redflag redflag redflag

Yeah, I understand, pretty soon both of you are trying to repair the other ones misguided and screwed up soul, and you don't trust them either. Who is gonna set the standard for what is important and real? That is a question both of you cannot really answer, and so you try to answer them, but the other insists you don't know anything. So it becomes a foolish battle of maybes. Maybe I can try this and maybe if I can calm him down or maybe if we can think this way...and maybe if I insist it is my way, and I have the REAL brains and intuitivness, I KNOW what is REALLY going on. So you both are trying to make life your individual version of how you see it, so you can have some control as to what to do now.

I have lived that for years in the absence of good solutions to problems, and it comes from desparation in yourself more than what they do.

I hope you can hear what I am telling you in that. Its easy to say, but hard to explain, and you have to get there in your own way, so you can truly own the victory.

I can say, and its true, "You cannot control what he feels and thinks or his actions", but until what he does is not as important as what you do, you will try.

Then there is the other persons story too, the wife who has problems with her Hubby who carrys her own little personal cross to "fix" him, while the husband does the same thing at the same time. Both are basically good people, and from thier point of view, or even who they confide in, they are right. But it was never about being right.

I was right that if my wife didn't see someone about her drug and alcohol issues, that if she didn't seek some emotional help for her problems, that if I was going to be the only one working and i had to watch her destroy what I saw her and I build in our children for years, that I would lose the ability to keep going, emotionally, which would eventually lead to physically, and I was already pushing that. I was right it would drag her down and make her sick again, and maybe this time take her life.

What in that, was right? My observations? The pure science and knowledge of her anatomy that I learned because, I was supposed to look out for her? How she needed more attention than normal because what was once something that helped her feel valuable, was now an addiction?, and she needed therapy about that.

I would have rather been wrong and have her still alive, saying I had no reason to leave, she was going to get straight eventually, and in denial still that she had issues. If I supported her and her new boyfreind, who also was a drinker, but...had money and said he would send her to a detox..well she might be alive today.

So why didn't I cut her loose again when she went back to the drugs? I did in 1986-88, Why not in 2001? In 1986 I still had a chance to make a life where I could afford to spend time with all the people I loved, and I had not completly engulfed myself with her problems with an attachment to them being my fault. Then I only had a small amount of history with her, and very young children, I still had a chance to have a life and let her figure out what she wanted for herself. In 2001 I had already lived that life, with my children, and she had traded all the reasons she drank,(history of how life treated her, parents, whatever), for what now was..The life I had not given her. To be fair, it only happened after she started to drink, and that only after she reached a turning point in her life where she needed to get help, and would not, again, still. I say that because when the behavior started, my kids didn't know this woman, it wasn't thier Mom. They had never seen this side of her, I was familiar with it. I stayed for the same reason I came back, to support the children while they had to deal with an emotionally damaged, and fragile mother. Wrapped up in that were my personal dreams she would work on her drug and emotional issues, and we could becaome closer as we aged together. Freinds who saw each other through and did not waiver. It was a good and righteous dream yes, and worth every minute of believing in, but in the end, I would rather she was alive and did not understand it, beacuse truthfully, I don't think she ever saw it anyway.

Sorry for the sad story, I said it to prove a point for you. You are in charge of your own life harmony, just as WH is in charge of his. If you wait for someone to make you happy you are setting yourself up for a fall. Yes someone can show you care and you can appreciate that, if you choose to, but happiness has a lot to do with acceptance of life and what you can make of it. Someone else will let you down if your dreams are all centered around them, but then again, that ends up being your fault then doesn't it? Especially if you reach to far, and expect to much, from someone that hasn't a clue to what you need.

Wants versus needs? Well that is mixed up in your own head as it is for everybody. Human nature is that we will call our wants needs if we can, and believe we need them if we are fools. But what we really need is to be satisfied with what we have at the moment, and appreciate it as part of life and how things are and work. Your marriage has some problems, Boundaries and healthy habits were not practiced, and even if you want it to work it will take change and work from both of you. If it doesn't work, you will have to adjust to the fact that both of you were to blame for the pain self inflicted and inflicted on each other. A marriage partner does not allow the other to hurt them or themselves, thats the deal, and God enforces it. Why do I say that about God? Because he wont let something exist that will hurt you, even yourself and your bad habits, and if you and WH aren't looking out for each other, He is still.

Sorry for the long post, hope it helps in some way.

Hi

I was angry when I wrote that post. Had further news last that Dad doesn't want to have anymore transfusions to sustain him so looking at maybe a few months or weeks.

I was angry when I wrote that post and maybe I am more angry at myself for creating this mess. It's such a difficult situation and I really don't want to feel extra pressure whatever happens. I think I just need to cone to terms with the news about my dad and when I feel calmer then decide what to do. I may ask H to contact Dad and put his mind at rest that whatever the outcome we will do it with grace. He is good like that.

Maybe next week I will be ready to face H, just not right now. I need to digest the news.

I love my H and I know I have the capacity to forgive but I don know I can do to calm his anger. I have tried everything. To be honest Dad is my priority right now.

Thanks so so much for your support.

Harmony

How can I thank you all for getting me to a place where I am coping with all this.

I just can't wait for that moment when things will get better I still believe they will.

My friend, who has problems of her own, joked that next year is our year!!
@Harmony -

Quote
... I am more angry at myself for creating this mess.

This means that you are an thinking human being aware of the consequences of your actions. With this you can CHOOSE.

You get to choose everything about your life.
Hope your Dad is comfortable, and is at peace.

Hope you are too.
Hi Guys

My Dad is slowly detoriating now and probably looking at a couple of weeks. I spent the day with him yesterday which was lovely, hugged and talked. He is ready to go and is at peace. We even had some fun and laughs. I am scared, but through the strength I have found here and what I learnt I am being strong.

Dad asked me again if I had spoken to H, I told him the truth that I needed time to digest the news about Dad, so when I spoke to H i was in a calm place.

Thing is I truly love my H, but deep down I know that I have betrayed him, and sometimes it is easier for me when my H behaves poorly because then I can say, well look how he behaves why would I want to be with him anyway?! Poor I know, but otherwise it is too painful, to know that something I have done, has ended my M when things could have different.

You see when I spoke to my Dad yesterday, I tried to give him peace of mind that I do have concerns about being with my H. My Dad started to get annoyed with me and said, Harmony! Do you want to be with him or not? I said, yes. He said well then, go speak to him tell him how you feel and the rest will sort itself out. I suppose I may have over complicated the issue.

I know I messed up, yes he was not perfect my H, yes he was selfish and unsupportive and is emotionally a bit challenged (I mean that in the nicest way), but we enjoy our time together. We built the most amazing house together, been on the most amazing trips, we laugh so much, we tease each other and have fun, and we get excited about all the things we do in life.

I only wish that my H knew, the only thing I wanted from him, was HIM. Not the big house, the car, the clothes, the holidays, I just wanted his time and attention and care.

For many months I have never understood, why I had the A, and threw away my M. Anger is why I did it. A deep resentment had built up inside me about the fact that I had not been able to get pregnant, that my H did not want to go on honeymoon with me to save money, that all he wanted to do was focus on his business and give me scraps of his time, that he was on the look out for the next biggest house when I was happy in the small house we first had together, when I told him things he wouldn't listen, that he left me to organise everything the bills/holidays/nights out/wedding/dinner parties, that he never told me I was beautiful or looked nice. The problem is I never told him and the reason I never told him as I had a mindset that was if I had to tell him what I wanted that it was just not the same. He was never nasty or unkind or would have dreamt of cheating on me, just a bit poor on loving a woman!

I remember that the first time I slept with OM, whilst on the business trip, my H sent me a text asking whether I could get the Monday off when I returned from my business trip, and laying in bed with the OM, tears welled up in my eyes and I thought it is too bloody late! My H asked me to take the time off because he knew I had gone into some kind of withdrawal and he knew something was up.

I am sure we are both telepathic, I can predict the exact day he comes to the house!

So I will go and see him, with a huge amount of love and forgiveness in my heart and see what happens. Then I will make a decision, whether to go back into Dark Plan B or D.

I also know that it will only be when my H sees or hears that I am out with someone else or really out of the door, that he will come back to really talk. Not that I am going to see anyone else whilst I am still married, think I learnt my lesson don't you? smile

Harmony.
Hey Harmony,
Sometimes situations in life happen that put everything in perspective. I think your Dad's illness has been an eye opener to having last chances......I certainly hope he is at peace and that the two of you can really spend some great time together, he is your Dad and will watch over you Harmony it's his job and it's what he wants to do for you............
Be open with him, he knows you.........
I think part of having a great relationship with someone else is having one where you can say anything and be totally honest with your feelings, it doesn't matter what your husband will say or do, it's about you getting it all on the table and leaving nothing to chance.......
You can't control him but you can control what you do.........You have to stop doing the blame game about the affair and just accept that you are human and we all make mistakes...........
You go to him, tell him all you want and then you tell him you will not let this situation take anymore of your life...........You brush yourself off and start again on Harmony's life.........Your husband has to chose his own path, he knows what he should do, he now has to find his personal honesty and figure out how he will conduct himself from now on.......
Hang in there, You sound like you are changing inside and that is going to give you the strength to handle anything.....
Right now depend on yourself and spend lots of time with Dad........he is the man right now that loves ...................
Hiya Jessi

That was such a lovely post.

Knowing my father is at peace, makes me at peace. It is a strange time, one I have never experienced before, but I am doing ok. It comes in waves. I am more scared what it will be like once he is gone, you know what I mean? I have got so close to him lately. But I have wonderful family and friends who are there for me, and times like this make you realise what life is really about.

I called H lunchtime today, he hasn't answered. I left him a nice calm message saying "Hi there honey, hope your doing OK, just calling for a chat and to see how you are". I have had no response as of yet.

I am OK about meeting him, I have realised that I am prone to DJ's. I haven't really thought about what I will say, but I will tell him that I love him very much, acknowledge that I messed up big time, that how much pain I have been in the last few months with his disappearing off with OW and how I know I can forgive him, if he does whats needed, because I believe in him and know that he has wonderful qualities?

Question - Am I allowed to tell him he is a stubborn old mule, that needs to take up boxing to vent his anger and that there is a woman here that loves him more that anything in the world??

I am off to the works Xmas party, have a lovely weekend all. Its snowing here in England brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Harmony.



Sounds like you are in a better place. Yes I think you have learned a lot too.

Dad sounds like he knows you pretty well. How much time did you get to be with him growing up after parents split? If you don't mind me asking.

I really like Jesses post, and agree with it, and don't have much to add. Maybe its time to take things out from under the microscope, and see the big picture, even though the people in it have flaws.

There is the reason, why we trust in those boundaries, so we don't have to see the ugly truth about ourselves, at such a cost. Why we trust the wisdom of people who have been there, and don't want us to go there, and don't even want them to understand why.

I will bet you will do everything possible to help your future children to avoid such pain, and you will say such things as, "Because I said so", and "Because I am your Mother" as you will have learned how to trust them to something, beyond your experience also, and how painful it can be, when we take our lives in our hands, and ignore those disciplines that seem to be fencing us in, but are really there to protect us.

"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread". I think you understand that more than maybe you did before, and and I hope Wh does too. Now as your Dad says, tell him, communicate, and as jesse says, have the guts,(JL reference), to lay it all out on the table with WH, and work it out.

We are here for advice from an objective point, If any of us have two braincells to rub together for warmth, we all know we could also be in your sitch, as humans are falible.

We also know that without conflict and challange, nothing gets stronger or gains definition. Out of the boiling off of deception and lies we have bought, or want to beleive, that come from us falling into such a boiling pot as you have , comes truth and wisdom, and growth, if we look for it, and keep fighting for it.

Whether WH and you regroup immediatly and make a go of it, or whether the blame game still yanks you both around, this place will allways be here to help see through the fog and fear that effects you in the pain of rejection, or the separation in relationship.

The most perfect thing would be, that you and H come seek Dr Hs help, come here if you need to, and eventually are so busy living your lives together you only stop in once in a while to help others and give us updates.

But untill then, everyone is here as an extended family, and the people here are all seeking relationship, with the guidance and sometimes in the terms of 2X4s, to bring in the truth to us. Right where we are "at", at the time.

Go and work to put your Marriage back together if he will. and know that it is a journey, that will require care and guidance all your lives, and help too, How you proceed defines both of you.

Reminds me of that saying, "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear". I think you both are close to the point of being ready.
I know why he didn't return my call! Just seen H in the car with another woman. Ahhhh. Ok.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Question - Am I allowed to tell him he is a stubborn old mule, that needs to take up boxing to vent his anger and that there is a woman here that loves him more that anything in the world??...

Spoken like a true wife.. rotflmao Sounds like you will be giving him good advice too.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I know why he didn't return my call! Just seen H in the car with another woman. Ahhhh. Ok.

How did you see him... twoxfour plan B??
Don't let his behavior effect you, as we have allready discussed, two wrongs don't make a right, and he is still reacting the only way he knows how.

Trust another guy on that. He has lost his "alpha male" status, and is trying to fix it with all these OWs. If I was as spoiled as he was by you, a successful attractive women whom he adored, and then the proverbial world I lived in was destroyed, I might have done the same at that age.

Just do a plan B for Gods sake, you aren't supposed to see him remember?

I wonder, was he laughing and having a great time with this woman?, or was he doing the sad sack rebelious, "My wife hurt me so much" combination boo-hoo and "Can I be your puppy now" act?

These women are also desparate being with a married man, and/or just playing a game and, he doesn't respect them either.

Just go to the party, and get outside of this for a bit.

Have a great time
I drove past him on way to Xmas party! He is full of chit! There is no one else Harmony!!
Harmony,
What are your thoughts right now?
I know that must have hurt seeing him with the OW.
You must remember he doesn't know what you are thinking and he is doing the only thing he knows how to do......
If he knew better he might be doing better.........
I think for your chance at moving on or fixing your marriage, you still have to put everything on the table and then it's up to him how he choses to handle that information, right now you have to do not worry about what he is doing and with whom, that is something that can't be changed unless he knows all the facts..........
Be honest, give him one last chance and then accept and move on or work together, honestly..........
I do think you can tell him anything you want in a loving caring way.......why wouldn't you say everything that is in your heart now, there is no need to hold back anything .............can you hurt anymore Harmony, I'm going to guess the answer is NO, so get it all out..................
This is the do or die part of this situation..........
You do your part that's all you can do........
I'm still hopeful, lost souls can come back to a great life if given an opportunity and they have the strength to take their chances...........
Crap, now shes heading to a Xmas party, where there are guys who have made passes at her, and she just saw her husband with another woman, and her Dad is about to leave this earthly place.

Can't think of a greater setup to screw up if i tried. Hope she stays strong, and has a real friend there she can lean on and will protect her.

Can anyone say.."Kobemurashi test"
Stay strong Harmony, remember the lesson you learned when you lost your temper before, and how it hurt you more than anything else.
Harmony,

Are you seeing why you need to talk to him. Your Dad is a wise man. A lot of learning from the school of hard knocks and experience.

Talk to your H when you can and then make your decisions. Just remember this talk is about what you want to say about yourself, not about how to fix H. It is his job to change and grow if he won't, then you two are not suited for one another.

Yes, you failed yourself, your marriage and your H when you slept with OM and yes you have to address that. But, have you addressed why you allowed this to happen? You should.

I fully agree focus on your Dad. Your time with him is precious. But, he won't really be leaving you, no he will be with you, in his words, in his actions, in your memory. You carry part of him with you from now on. You will have another voice in your head offering you advice.

Hang in there.

JL
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
...For many months I have never understood, why I had the A, and threw away my M. Anger is why I did it.

Then after the anger was satisfied, and you felt better for...oh lets guess..an couple days? you tried to justify it, and really inside did not buy it yourself. Thats normal in those situations when your angry. Like when you want to puch some poor drunken guy one for mouthing off and being an Ahole, but your brain tells you to walk away, because you don't answer fools in thier folly.

A deep resentment had built up inside me about the fact that I had not been able to get pregnant, that my H did not want to go on honeymoon with me to save money, that all he wanted to do was focus on his business and give me scraps of his time, that he was on the look out for the next biggest house when I was happy in the small house we first had together, when I told him things he wouldn't listen, that he left me to organise everything the bills/holidays/nights out/wedding/dinner parties, that he never told me I was beautiful or looked nice.

Sounds like something needed to be worked out then, and POJA would have been great for your workload. Also time spent with a counselor to discuss marriage related issues, like children, and time together. Yeah, you both must of assumed things would work out even though life was seperating your time together doing these things. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah and,,,yeah.. Ok, so thems the facts, can you bring them to WH and stand clear on them? Don't let stuff like, "But I was trying to __________for you and I because______and you didn't understand....sidetrack the fact that niehter of you communicated or shared all your life and thoughts like you should have. Heck, that what marriage is for. You both have a right to know what each other is thinking or feeling, to care for and protect each other, as you do yourself.

The problem is I never told him and the reason I never told him as I had a mindset that was if I had to tell him what I wanted that it was just not the same.

If I had a nickel for every time someone said that, Yeah, you know now you wanted, or at least would have appreciated, your H to read your mind. Now you know not to believe in crystal balls, and that maybe H needed a boot in the butt, but what you did hurt you both. A hard lesson learned, but you learned it.

Next time you will tell him things are unacceptable, and you need to communicate, and his stubborness will not stop you from improving your marrige...or you will be leaving. I think H should have been more attentive to you, but your insistance that thier be some kind of symbionic esp connection that had not been developed yet, caused you to screw up just as much as his not taking care of things right. Ok...We all get that.. what can you do now?


He was never nasty or unkind or would have dreamt of cheating on me, just a bit poor on loving a woman!

I remember that the first time I slept with OM, whilst on the business trip, my H sent me a text asking whether I could get the Monday off when I returned from my business trip, and laying in bed with the OM, tears welled up in my eyes and I thought it is too bloody late! My H asked me to take the time off because he knew I had gone into some kind of withdrawal and he knew something was up.

I am sure we are both telepathic, I can predict the exact day he comes to the house!

Oops, whatch the telepathy thing, get it in writing. Mark twain said, "Pale ink is better than the best memory" . Im sure you two have a connection, but you have learned that assumptions can be dangerous, right?

So I will go and see him, with a huge amount of love and forgiveness in my heart and see what happens. Then I will make a decision, whether to go back into Dark Plan B or D.

Awesome


I also know that it will only be when my H sees or hears that I am out with someone else or really out of the door, that he will come back to really talk. Not that I am going to see anyone else whilst I am still married, think I learnt my lesson don't you? smile

Yes you have, and believe me, when a husband knows his wife is separating from him, there is allways another man. Maybe not presently, or in the wings, or even active at the moment, but it is inevitable he will lose her eventually to someone else. Its the unspoken fact and truth that they are most afraid of.

Thats twoxfour why twoxfour plan twoxfour B. is really the only healthy alternative to save a relationship. It focuses on the problem before it get to hard to fix, and prevents ENs being met outside marriage. The fear of losing you will be real in plan B, just as if you were going to see someone else. But again you , have learned that, and know it now, as evidenced in your posts.




Harmony.

Hope you were strong at your party, and had good time without any dramatic situations coming about from anywhere

TTYL
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 11/27/10 03:58 AM
Hey Harm - Hi,

Have not been on here for awhile, but I wish you so very well. But, would you do something for for You - lighten up Harm.

I have not honestly had a chance to read your recent post - lokve over the past two months - but goddammne you seem to be getting wraped in your own underwear - so lighten Harm.

Char was here past three days for Thanksgiving here and so still busy. Had our son and daughter here last couple of days - our son lives in my town, so not such a big deal with that - but oh man the movies, photos, food, et. al., we did have a great time. I think we all of us deserved that.

Ya know Harm. I know that alot of good people are trying to day-to-day give you good advice. And again I thing you need to make your decision what you want to do.

I made a decision a month ago to start phyisical workouts daily ...well every other day now. That is a really a huge change for me. Ya know what that has included - arm curls with weights, leg calf lifts, pushups, triceps backlifts, leg lunges with weights, bicylces, ab cruches, etc. Do these every other day and my son is my monitor. Know what - I physically feel like I am age 40 and I am 68.

I am a firm beliver in that if change is necessary, the only individual who can do that is him/her. That is why I am doing the workouts.

At the expense of getting kicked out of here I will say that a couple of people who have been advising you seem to be keeping you in tow in terms of Their own opinions. I think you know who I mean.

You are a great person Harmony - no one here - no one at all - can or should attempt to sway you one way or the other. Yea, Learning seems nice, but, I think Learning is becoming caught up in his own underwear too! Harm, after 41 years of marriage Char and I are still together emotionally, as well as with our kids, and we had a Great Thanksgiving. (She snored one night and I did have to sleep in another bedroom).

Just simply, my best to you.

Tom







Harmony, I want to point something out to you: you have had a lot of loss lately.

You have lost:

1. Your H and the M you envisioned.
2. OM and whatever future you may have envisioned with him at the time
3. Your relationship with your mother and stepfather;
4. Are losing your father.

Some of those losses are good � you will create a healthier dynamic with your mom and stepfather, and losing OM is the only healthy choice for you.

But loss is loss. I fear you are very vulnerable right now to any male attention � notice on that list that the primary male relationships in your life have all been affected.

Remember that target on our backs we talked about a few months ago? I am concerned you might have one in blinking neon right now. The holidays are hard under the best of circumstances.

Be very mindful of your boundaries. You shouldn�t even be talking to men without several people present. Your EP�s need to be solid.

I�m not fussing at you or lecturing you. I don�t want to see you hurt again � holiday parties, wine, H with OW = recipe for potential disaster.
Hi All

My H called me back last night, and we chatted on the phone for about an hour.

We had a good talk, about the most progress yet. It was an adult conversation where we both clarified a few things with each other.

I spoke about how I acknowledged I was responsible for creating this mess, and that I hate to see him in pain that I have caused. H said that he didn't feel that I had done enough to win him back. I told him of all the things I had been doing and that I was at the end of my tether and what else could I have done? He went silent.

H then said that there were a couple of things that I had done in the last few months that had not helped matters.

I explained to him how much pain I had gone through in the last few months with him and OW, IB and constant disrespect. That I had to ask him to leave for self protection.

He did seem to listen to some of the points I had made and accept what I was saying.

I was a lot more vocal and assertive without being disrespectful.

H said that he was at OW 2 when I spotted his van there as he needed someone to talk to as he can't talk to his mum and dad. I said but it is never going to work if you are still in contact with the OW. The reason being is you had a sexual relationship with her and that will make me feel distressed and bretrayed again, and that it is not going to help him talking to the OW as the last thing that she will be concerned with is saving our M.

I told him how much I loved him and that I regret every second of the choice I made. H then went very quiet and said OK Harmony, but you do realise we probably need some time appart.

We agreed to meet on Tuesday for dinner. Not really sure what to make of the 'time appart' comment, but I guess I can clarify that when I see him.

I really feel that he does not want to get divorced, but don't feel as though he is commited to the M.
Hi Guys

I have a lot of fear going on at the moment.

Fear that my H is not going to support me with my Dad and I am not going to be able to forgive him for that.

I have some questions.

When I see him on Tuesday and he asks for time appart, do I tell him he either comes home and commits to recovery, or we end the M?

DO I tell him what I need from the M?

Do I not go to meet him and go back into Plan B? I would much rather he comes to me, asking to recommit to the M, and go into a serious Plan B, which is water tight.

Thanks guys.
Originally Posted by harmony2010
Fear that my H is not going to support me with my Dad and I am not going to be able to forgive him for that.

Harmony, I�m a little unclear on what Plan you are in, possibly because you don�t have a Plan.

I will leave it to the experts on what to say, except for this: I think it is critical that you communicate that point about your father, either in person or in writing. You H has some amends to make to your dad � he may not choose to make them, but IMO he must understand the gravity of the situation and be given the opportunity to do the right thing. This isn�t a situation where H has the luxury of waiting until he feels like it.

I won�t go into the whole long boring story but this sort of thing MATTERS, pretty much forever. Not having one�s spouse�s support at the time of death of a family member is a very tough resentment to let go of.

Personally, I recommend you call SteveH again before you meet with H. STRONGLY recommend it. You have too many balls in the air to know which one to catch � I think SteveH will give you a script to deal with your H about your dad that will show both strength and vulnerability and impress upon your H that this is a critical time where H needs to do the right thing by your father, even if he won�t do the right thing by you.

Mind those boundaries in the meantime young lady.

{{{Harmony}}}



I feel that H is still in A I have no proof though. He tells me nothing is going on. If he is seeing OW whilst I am going through this with my Dad then j will NEVER forgive him. I do not feel like meeting him at all. I feel he is gaslighting me spoken like a true wayward I need more time appart!

Are you kidding? I just feel the love seeping out of me, wish I had not broken Plan B as I would have think he would have broken by now.

Please help me guys I am feeling like I want to bow out, is there any hope left at all? Knowing I am going through this if he is with OW ahhhh.

Can you tell me why HD continues to fence sit? He wants a family too. He now doesn't even have the benefit of our lifestyle which I thought was keeping him here.

To be honest I would have stayed in Plan B if it wasn't for the situation for my Dad I just know I won't be able to forgive him. To know my dad has so little time to live and make no effort to see me.

The love is dying.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 11/27/10 11:25 PM
My 2 cents. You talked to WH for an hour. Go back to Plan B. Look at what this contact has done to you. You are emotionally vulnerable right now. You could always go into a Plan B with intentions of calling SH and asking HIM what to do.

I think in your posts, I can sense that you WANT to return to Plan B. If you are going to do that, however, you should make it as dark as possible.
I want to return to Plan B but am afraid how I will feel if Dad passes without H having made any effort to support me.

Plan B made me feel so protected I don't trust H as far as I can throw him.

Thanks Scotland.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010[/quote
My Dad is slowly detoriating now and probably looking at a couple of weeks.

Scotty, this is what I am worried about with Plan B.

Harmony, is your H aware of the gravity of your father's health situation? If so, how did he respond?

Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 11/28/10 12:20 AM
Waywards really aren't known for their love and support as long as they ARE wayward. It is more likely that her WH will be a real TURD during all of this.
I think you should forward the last few days posts to Dr H, and then get his advice on what you should do also.

Wh met with the Dr., so he should have a good idea where Whs head in at, and why there is such a problem in communication with you both, and trust.

You have a lot goin on right now, meeting with him again without a planned script could really hurt you. Talking to him seems to allways be painful, and we all are worried about you.

Stay calm and focus on your Dad and his needs right now, you have no problem with that, and it will allways be what you are glad you did.
Scotty, I fear you are right. My waywardness never came close to that so I have a hard time with the concept.

Harmony, my mother is right now in hospital dying. And I am in another state with my H trying to make things right. There is no good choice - just less bad ones.

Please check in with the Harleys, by phone or email or smoke signal. This is too much for you to navigate on your own, even with us solidly behind you.

And never, ever, forget that we are solidly behind you.
Plan B is going to HELP you. You keep letting this man in right now... it. will. only. hurt. you.

He is WW. He is not/will not/can not be there for you.

I am so sorry that you are going through all this right now.

But running back to an active WW and allowing him access to your life is like watching a bunny run into a trap. Nothing... I mean nothing positive is going to come out of it.

There is nothing he can do to really help you while he is WW.
Seriously, can you name one positive thing that has come from this contact?

I agree with SB



Harmony,
I remember in the beginning of my situation I thought all kinds of things that I thought my husband wanted and lots of times my thoughts weren't any where near what he was thinking or what he wanted. When you say you don't think he wants a divorce you might be right but Harmony he doesn't seem to have your best interests at heart, I think if he was serious about wanting to stay married to you, he wouldn't still be in contact with any other women.....
He would be showing you a man that you can trust and believe in reguardless of what you did(ask him to leave) he had to know continuing on with the other women isn't the way to win you back...
I say go ahead and meet up with him Tuesday, lay it out on the line and if he gives you any talk about wanting time apart, then give it to him and tell him you will have to be out of his life for good..........
I want you to go back to only thinking of you and your father for now......
He did have a couple of opportunities to say to you he wants to work things out, he didn't did he?
Harmony, I just don't have a good feeling about him yet........
Hi all

I feel like I am still being punished for my A. I have not heard a peep out of H since I told him Dad had 2 weeks left.

I am suppose to be meeting him tomorrow, I just want to say to him he should be here supporting me through this. What has happened to him?
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hi all

I feel like I am still being punished for my A. I have not heard a peep out of H since I told him Dad had 2 weeks left.

Is your WH really the type of guy who would punish your Dad, or use his last days on this earth, to get back at you? If so, I would be glad if I didn't have to talk to him, and that he stayed away from my sick Dad.

I am suppose to be meeting him tomorrow, I just want to say to him he should be here supporting me through this. What has happened to him?

It would be great if he could support you, as in that he would even be supporting your Dad. He might be an all or nothing kind of guy right now, and/or so depressed and confused, and not even be able to support himself. That, is what I see as his playing with all the OWs, his need for a womans support.


I hope he is seeing someone, (a therapist), to help sort himself out. These women are not the answer. He will have to see that also, before he gets seriuos.

I think you could ask him to stick by you for Dads sake, and help assure Dad you will work things out. But its on him if he is to weak, and that is NOT a slam on him, its just something with more guilt he will have to bear later, or deny.

Praying for you two.
Hi All


Need your help here supposed to be seeing H tomorrow night. Not sure if I should go or not.

H seems to want 'time appart' this is wayward talk right? Not sure why H continues to fence sit, this has been going on for 8 months, he surely doesn't want to pro long further. Does he want to see if there is somebody out there?

I could meet him and put my cards on the table, that if he is unable to support me through my Dad and needed more time appart then I intend to move on and file.

Or I could not meet him and say if he needed more time apart then that's whY he should do and go back into dark plan B.

Failing that I could go along and see what he has to say and let him know where I am at, that I love him I would be prepared to recover the M but if he wants more time appart then he can do that but I need to move on with my life without him. That he has shown no remorse for the pain he has put me through and he has not proven to me that I can trust him as he has given me
no reason to trust him. That I would need to see acceptance and remorse for his poor behaviour and commitment to making the M work, otherwise I am oug the door.

Harmony
Harmony,

You are a good person but to me you seem to be looking at this all wrong. You stated and asked
Quote
I feel like I am still being punished for my A. I have not heard a peep out of H since I told him Dad had 2 weeks left.

I am suppose to be meeting him tomorrow, I just want to say to him he should be here supporting me through this. What has happened to him?
Your focus is totally on you, and yet your Dad is dying. Why don't you focus on your Dad?

What you H does or does not do is not related to your Dad and the relationship you have with your Dad. Your relationship with your H is not the point right now, it is the one with your Dad. Focus on that one.

Your H is not a mindreader. If you really want him to visit your Dad ask him to do so, but before you do you need to know what you think this will help your Dad.

Seriously Harmony your Dad's situation is not about you in regards to your relationship with your H.

This should be a time for you to make your Dad's passing as pleasant as possible and one that you will look in the mirror years from now and know that you did your best for him.

Please think about this.

JL
You are right JL. I think we crossed posts. I was thinking of my Dad, only because I thought if I could sort the H situation out then Dad would feel more at peace. It was more for him really and me being worried I can't forgive afterwards.

I won't go meet him tomorrow I will go see my Dad instead. My brother is coming from Oz so he will be here with me.

Feel at peace with what's happening with Dad, frightened when I hear the news, that's all.

Thank you

harmony
Harmony,
Right now enjoy seeing your brother and taking care of Dad, if you do decide to see your husband, tell him this is what you have to do right now and that he should think about what he wants and that maybe in a week or two the two of you can sit down and figure what the plan for the future will be for the two of you.
Tell him that if he needs more time you aren't interested in waiting any longer, tell him you are at a crossroads and need to make a decision for your life and future.
Tell him that if he wants to say goodbye to your father that he should, who knows a visit might be good your Dad might have some influence over him, who knows.....
But for now, Dad is the focus, then you and your family...........
Your husband has removed himself, don't worry about him anymore, he has choices he is making and you can't control that so don't even waste any time on it right now............
jessi
Ok.

1. You are not sure if you want to give up on the marriage, so its plan B harmony. Dark, where you don't see him unless he wants to NC the bimbos, and counsel. Thats the beginning and end of that. Leave divorce out of your imediate descisions because the only time you think of it, it when you are triggered by lonliness, worry, seeing him with OWs, or those disjointed confusing half conversations mixed with whose fault it is which leave you frustrated.

So get an IM, tell him who it is, and have the IM filter all the communication..


Please answer me...Can/will you do that?


2. Your father should be your priority. Ask IM to ask WH if he would please see him, but only if it will be peaceful for your Dad, and WH can really,"be good like that" as you have said before.

I agree with JL that the time with your Dad does not have anything to do with the state of your marriage. Keep them seperate. If your husband is honest at all, he will tell your Dad he still has love for you, but is confused what to do. That is all you can expect, and WHs confirmation he will respect you to your dad.

Saying that to his face will give your dad the peace he needs, and whether you stay married or not or your version of how good you are doing will mean little in comparison. He wants to here it from Him, and he is not a fool that needs everything covered with lilacs when he knows there is trouble. If your WH really "is good like that", he will know this, and show Dad the proper respect. If you think WH will do something stupid and hurt Dad emotionally, ask WH what he plans to do, or don't bring him. Its as simple as that..

Get your brother to speak to WH reguarding this stuff. He might want to smack him, IDK, but for your Dads sake he can keep it together long enough to be your "IM" in this situation, even if not for your marrige, which I think will be to much for him to handle at this time.


Forget the marriage and all the issues surrounding the breakup for now. Concentrate on Dad, and only bring WH in where it will help give Dad peace. Thats the grown-up and loving thing to do.

Can/will you do that too?



Prayin for ya
Hi All,

Had some news that my Dad will last for a few more weeks as he has decided to have some injections to sustain him. He is surrounded by his family who are giving him so much love. Without sounding depressing, he is a very lucky man!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
1. You are not sure if you want to give up on the marriage, so its plan B harmony. Dark, where you don't see him unless he wants to NC the bimbos, and counsel.
Please answer me...Can/will you do that?


I talked this over with my sis to decide whether it is a good idea or not to have H dipping in and dipping out whilst this goes on or go Dark Plan B. It is clear he has no intention of being by my side supporting me through this. The best thing for me is to go Dark Plan B, as I was doing fine before. It would be worse for me, and insulting him calling me whilst getting up to god knows what. I am not going to meet him tonight as I would prefer to spend the time with people who really care about me (whoops that sounded bitter didn't it must stop that). So locks changed, number blocked and Scotty, Constant, Barbie, Marital and Jessi, let the dark Plan B commence.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
2. Your father should be your priority. Forget the marriage and all the issues surrounding the breakup for now. Concentrate on Dad, and only bring WH in where it will help give Dad peace. Thats the grown-up and loving thing to do.

Can/will you do that too?

Prayin for ya


He is my priority, my Dad and my family. I am so lucky with my family, we are all so close. My mum came and stayed with me last night, which was lovely. I think she is struggling too, there is obviously some strong feelings there. Also, I need to support her because I don't think she can show her feelings in front of her H. Oh BTW since I had the run in with SD, he seems to be very friendly with me. Maybe JL was right, asserting your boundaries does not mean instant change, it takes time. This whole process has made me think about the decisions I make in life. It really has. It has not made me feel negative about my background, just how important it is to make good clear decisions in life.

I went through my Dads 'box of doom' on Saturday. He had kept his divorce papers from all those years ago. He didn't want me to see them. He said there were not some very nice things. It seems after all the pain that my mother and father caused each other, there are some very strong feelings still burning. How strange. My Dad knows I am going to be ok thats the main thing.

Anyway, back in Dark Plan B.
Been to see Dad today he can only talk for a few minutes now, god this is tough, planning for someone to go when you don't want them too x
Harmony,
I remember when my mother was dying of breast cancer i would be so strong while I was with her, laughing and saying all the things I wanted to say and her to me as well. I would get in my car to go home and just fall apart, crying for an hour until I was tired right out, but I was strong for her...........it is so tough, sometimes I think it's tougher to go through it little by little, but at least you have an opportunity to say a good so long, remember that good men are hard to give up Harmony, it takes time.............
I'm glad you are going Dark Plan B, I think it will be easier for you .......
That problem in your life can wait for now................
Thanks Jessi that's comforting to know. It is a vert strange feeling, I am fine when I am with him, today was tough because he is very poorly. I just want to shake him and say get up let's go for a walk. I want to do something 'normal' with him. Good days and bad days.

Oh H sent a card to my Dad unprompted by me, nice thought.
Trying to stop feeling sorry for myself before I get a JL kick up the butt.

It seems a lot of my friends are more upset about whats happening, and I actually had to support my friend when she phoned and got upset.

Then just after I sorted myself out, a friend called who I know meant well, said everything is so chit for you at the moment, I don't know what to say.

I am going go shout it from the rooftops, Harmonys life is CHIT!! Thanks for confirming that for me, not that I didn't know that. Some people are just useless at knowing what to say.

I feel like I need a whole new life after this.





Hi Harmony,
I hear what you are saying, some people just don't help the situation, I loved the ones that came forward and just said to me, I want you to be happy and I will support any decision you come to............I really had a hard time with people that looked and treated me with the poor you, pity kind of support, it made me more emotional when I was trying to be strong in my decisions.....
Hey you know what I scream in my car when I drive to where I'm going, feels great......I'm calm when I get to where I'm going, I must look like a fool to anyone who might catch me, but what the hell...........I am a little crazy now anyway......hehe!!!!! Sometimes I think my new life might end up in the looney bin............hehe!!!
Thanks Jessi - will try the screaming technique I need something! I tend to sort myself out these days which is really good progress rather than relying on others to talk me out of low moments, I think they call it self soothe here.

I am just so desperate for some fun and happiness in my life. Its been going on for 2 years with H and now this. I really just need something good in my life. I don't want a lot, just to be in a happy relationship with a family.

I feel that I have grown so much being here and really feel that those around me are noticing the changes. I am much stronger, calmer, less likely to react to situations and more likely to defend my boundaries which is great as it means people are not taking to wotsit anymore.

I even feel calmer about H, we stopped talking on a good note and I am happy to put him on the back seat in a box until things with my Dad are over. I do forgive him you know, I don't think he is a bad person, he has just not learnt the tools I have to deal with these situations.

I read another thread from someone in a similiar situation, a FWW whose H was very angry and went off doing IB and OW. The advice she was given was to change herself, and enjoy her life withouth him, so that IF he did offer her an olive branch he was amazed at the changes.

Thanks all, this is a great place. Everything around me is falling, but I feel centred. Does anyone in these situations in life spend a lot of time on their own? I feel better on my own sometimes than in the company of others.


Just spoke to sis, depressed again, she has just been with all the mums from the school to the pub, and cooking dinner for the family.

This is how the convo goes;

Sis - what are you doing Harmony?
H - I am at home working.
Sis - Ahhh, oh dear, are you all on your own?
H - Yes I am
Sis - Oh dear.
H - Thats OK I have been for a walk and going out with friends for a curry later.
Sis - ahhhhh, thats OK then, OK I must go I am off outside to play with the kids in the snow
H - OK have fun.

I know she cares, I am probably just jealous cause she is happily married with a family and I am a sad singleton that she feels sorry for her, because that would be her idea of hell.
Hey don't be depressed, be grateful she is happy. I know I wouldn't want anyone I know to go through what I have been, I'm grateful for others who have happiness worked out, it makes me feel that it is all possible and you should look at it like that........
When it's your turn, the two of you can rejoice for each other, right now you can be happy for her, she called you because she cares about you Harmony, she wants you to stay hopeful even though life is rough right now............
sisters are great, nothing you can't say or do, they love you no matter what ........
warts and all..............and the great part it's a two way street........
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..
Thanks all, this is a great place. Everything around me is falling, but I feel centred. Does anyone in these situations in life spend a lot of time on their own? I feel better on my own sometimes than in the company of others.

I spend lot of time on my own, but I don't think it is the best medicine. rather time with real good friends, that reflect your character and boundaries, (hope you know what I mean by that, at a loss for words), that also reflect your dreams and aspirations, would be best.

But at a time like you are having, many ppl will not understand your choices, maybe old friends that you have to leave behind, or people who you know, and think they know you, and sometimes...are uncomfortable with the new you...so to speak..Like coworkers, who know you a little, or relatives, who like to believe the best and allready have you ,"figured out", sorta prophetically, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, sometimes you just need to be alone, and it is nessesary to do heavy thinking and adjustments. The goal would be of course, to be surrounded by freinds that love you, almost all the time. I think we all need time alone sometimes to reason and accept ourselves, and to accept what we want in that love, and of course, the biggy. What is love?

Spend time gaining peace, and when you get tired of your own company, go see someone who you feel is good company. In time you will not feel so lonly, even when you are alone, and strong and independant, even when in the midst of turmoil with others. It will take time, and its worth it in my book.


Its funny, I thought about my post, and saying I spend a lot of time alone, but really I don't. right now my DGD of 3 is cooking makebelieve dinner for me, cuz I watch her a couple days a week. I am llways doing something with my family or my friend Rocco.
Putting new facia boards, drip edge, and gutters on daughters house this weekend. Painting and refinishing floors at new house me and boys are moving to this Dec. on weekends. Drive 19 year old to work daily, putting ne clutch in DS24s car this weekend. Have a ongoing process of car repair and restoration with Rocco.. I am allways busy, rarely alone, but feel alone almost always, since the passing of my wife.

Alone and guilty, and despondant, and a lot of negative emotions can get jumbled up and confused. Thats why accually being alone and soulsearching can be theraputic as you sort things out, and learn that life IS fair, its just how you look at it.

Pray that your outlook improves as time goes by
Thanks constant, but your life sounds wonderful and that's what it's all about! I have great friends and family but what I want is my own house to be full of life and chaos. I am holding on for that, maybe bit depressed today just want to enjoy life I live my friends but have been doing that for such a ling time now.

Thanks for caring. Just off out with a friend for dinner!
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Thanks for caring. Just off out with a friend for dinner!

Well Yay for that. dance2 lol life sounds wonderful? well it could have been worse I know but then.. maybe it how I am looking at it...

No matter, those years building a family were the best of my life, just because it didn't come out the way I planned, or hoped, and I am alone tryin to put it back together, doesn't mean life is over, just a new chapter.

Happy fun day to you Harmony..as much as can be expected in the circumstances
@Harmony -

Why go out with friends to dinner, have friends in for dinner. Create "life and chaos" in your home? Make it happen for you.

Make tomorrow Happy Harmony Fun Day!
Lol!!! Thanks Clark like the idea of happy fun day?? Feel like I may have got things in perspective a little....need to start making a life with things going on....

Not that I am slightly tempted but got chatted up tonight whilst out at dinner, a friend of a friend came by and was talking and asked if he could take me out for a drink....I said no ofcourse but was defo an ego boost.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
...Not that I am slightly tempted but got chatted up tonight whilst out at dinner, a friend of a friend came by and was talking and asked if he could take me out for a drink....I said no ofcourse but was defo an ego boost.

So what does that mean for for you? I'll tell you in case you don't have it figured out.

When the fear of being alone the rest of your life comes over you, or you feel like a loser, or you get so lonly you are tempted to call OM, or reasonable facsimile, you can remember, its just your ego talking.

Ok, time for a little of constants opinion on ego, 101. I would throw in a disclaimer, but you allready gave me a crystal ball, and crystal balls trump all reasonable disclaimers in the, "why did you listen to him anyway.." dept. Did you get the friendly zing ?

The ego is described as our importance in the world, as if and when we matter to it. A large ego generally is described when someone thinks the world revolves around them, and a small one is when we think we don't matter. Most people think that large egos, based on that criteria and description, make people selfcentered and impossible to please, so they are looked down upon and the ego is pushed to the back of the priorities because they want to stay ,er, "nice". But because the description describes an inflated ego that also does not respect others in order to exist, many times people confuse a good self-image, and a pro-active approach to life, with having a big ego.

My thoughts are this ..It is good to have a large ego, to feel important to the world, and that everything we do matters in the big scheme of life. The trick is to understand its not our feelings that might lead us astray in abusing or useing others as much as our lack of conscience of doing so. If our conscience is healthy, and we have boudaries that we respect, it will warn us before we overstep our bounds. Feelings need to line up with what is right and decent behavior, in order to trust them to be our guide. So really, when our feelings let us do something destructive, it is because we accept that behavior in ourselves, and justify it. It wasn't feelings that overpowered us, it was our proper respect regaurding our behavior, or lack of it.

This applies in business just as much in our personal life, so its not just about personal relationships, not to say business practice is not a relationship too. They have a lot of simularitys.

So, if you want to impact the world and change what you feel is wrong with it, you NEED a big ego, just what is the influence you really have, and what can you do, except what is reasonable? What is more important, the power, or the result? All successful managers realize that the health of thier staff, and thier time and efforts, got them to where they are. They don't let it go to thier head, because the old adage, "Be kind to who you meet on the way up the ladder, because you will be seeing them again on the way down", is never seen unless they lose touch with how important others are.

Or more to the point, the smaller you know you are, and what you stand for is more important, the bigger your impact might be, but its not about you, its about what you stand for.

So thats business, and what I believe is the real reason for authority in it is to help others not just to be in charge, and prove it.

But back to the ego. What kind of life would it be, if you minimized everything you did, and found youself of no value? Like you didn't really matter? Well of course that would be a crappy life, and we would feel like we could do anything we felt, because it doesn't matter anyways. That disease is contagious also, because what we do DOES effect others also, even if we don't care what it does to us. What we don't do, is just as important as what we do.

So her it is, after all that babble, ..What part of your ego image, did the guy who hit on you effect? What did he treat you like, and was he really interested in you, or a playmate? All those things are the up front questions you should be asking yourself, and being angry or flattered depends on his intentions.

But when you feel lonely or down, you can remember that thoses options, and the people who exercise them, are still out there, and there will be some good guys around, when you are ready, and your not yet, and its gonna be OK.
Harmony,

Sorry your are down. Now get up! Seriously you are actually doing very well. I just thought I would point something out to you. You posted

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Just spoke to sis, depressed again, she has just been with all the mums from the school to the pub, and cooking dinner for the family.

This is how the convo goes;

Sis - what are you doing Harmony?
H - I am at home working.
Sis - Ahhh, oh dear, are you all on your own?
H - Yes I am
Sis - Oh dear.
H - Thats OK I have been for a walk and going out with friends for a curry later.
Sis - ahhhhh, thats OK then, OK I must go I am off outside to play with the kids in the snow
H - OK have fun.

I know she cares, I am probably just jealous cause she is happily married with a family and I am a sad singleton that she feels sorry for her, because that would be her idea of hell.

Do you realize you have a role model to follow? It would seem you do, it is your Sis. I know it is hard for you to see right now with all that is happening, but you do have blessings in your life. One of which is you get to say what ever you need to your Dad and share with him. I know it is sad, but you are getting an opportunity that many don't.

Also don't be so hard on those that don't know what to say. They just have not lived through it, or something like it in their lives. Folks have lived through these things, whether it is divorce or losing a parent or even a spouse or child.

I'm not saying, "you don't know how bad it could be." I'm saying you will be heard by those that have similar experiences. Others will just be well intentioned, but sometimes not very helpful.

You are getting far enough along for me to share with you what I wish for you in your next step. What I wish for you next is: GRACE.

It has many meanings but it is such a wonderful word and a wonderful state to be in. I wish for you to learn to conduct your life with "GRACE", handle people with "GRACE", and accept the good and bad in your life with "GRACE"..

Interestingly, the people I know that do, have boundaries very strong boundaries, but they have learned how to protect them with minimum damage to others. Such care is called handling it with "GRACE".

Please think about this word as you deal with all that you are dealing with. I really think it will change your life if you learn how to live in and with GRACE.

God Bless,

JL
More on some stuff..

I allways liked women who others called stuck-up, just because they wouldn't go out on a date with them. It made me laugh.

You don't have to be the life of the party, or a suffering servant, to be a good person, or a good friend.

Direct and honest people who don't make excuses for themselves, and won't buy them from others, are the best friends. They also seem to have the most peace.

Less is more, and keeping it simple is very nessesary, otherwise you might think yourself stupid. Kinda..KISS Keep It Simple Stupid.

There is something to be said about pyschiatry/psychology being "headshrinkers" and them "sorting out" that massive mess of thoughts that are in our head, and getting back to basics of life.

(Psst.. my screen name used to be "sortingitout" smile )

Missing out on some things is a blessing in disguise. being aggravated into a dare is a fools game. I should know.

If you care about your life, you will have times of suffering and questioning your actions while you change it. To run away from that is denial and being a child. We are allways learning.

The human brain is a marvelous organism and humans did not design it, accept that and care for it, along with your thoughts, which is what it is for, to learn from pain, and help others avoid, not cure, the mistakes you or others make. Sorry if that sounds to "motherly" but I don't care really, life is valueable, and to short to waste on selfdestructive behavior.

Time, and the proper enviroment, heals all wounds. Taking a chance here sounding sexest, and don't think I don't realize that people are all different and there is an exception to every rule, but.
I think women generally are more sensitive to thier imediate enviroment, and they instintivly know a bad one. I also believe it is comepletly a blessing in marriages and a man should be sensitive to that, while creating an enviroment of safety, for his wife and family.

Because you don't have that option now, and you haven't most of your life, with SD and real Dad being unavailable, I believe you need to seek out a safe place to be, think, and slow down to relax. This forum is probably part of that, but plan B, counsel with DR H, and maybe a personal counselor you trust and respect would go a long way for anybody, you too.

Stay away from situations that stimulate a need to respond as much as possible, till you have had time to really sort it out. It matters, you matter, and you are getting stronger all the time.

Have a good nite Harmony
Hiya Guys

Well as Clarks suggestion made today a Harmony fun day. I looked after my 12 year old niece and took her with me to go and see my mum. Bought them both back to mine and we went for a walk in the snow and had a big snow ball fight! Came back to mine and a friend popped round with some wine and choccies. So house has been full of life which has been great.

Thought a little about H today, missing him and wishing he could be around. Although don't get me wrong I am missing old H not the person he turned into. I wish he could be around and have decided if things don't work out I want to be with someone who is full of life and positive mental attitude! I remember the OM was quite dour and deep and I didnt like it.....

I am appreciating the darkness of Plan B. I do still wander why H behaved the way he did towards me and how painful it was. I had a nightmare last night about a humiliating situations that H put me in, it was all very painful. Plan B literally saved me. I do wonder if H has met someone else and what it will take to bring him out of the fog.

I started to think about the things SH said to me about how to act during Plan B, which was not to be totally dark and think SH has a reason for this. For example SH said not to change the locks or get rid of all his stuff, I think it is because he does not want me to wind H up but just really let him know that I will not tolerate OW. It has been 6 weeks since H left and he has only made a couple of attempts to move back. Either he has really checked out the rship or has someone else.

When I spoke to H and had an hour conversation talking about some of the things JL said, H ended the convo by saying OK Harmony I understand but we just need a little time appart, JL maybe you can add some wisdom here, why is he doing this? Has he no intention of getting back with me but just doesn't want anyone else to have me? Is he keeping his options open? Or is it a sensible idea?

Would appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks again all and JL, I actually feel like I am doing well and like the idea of GRACE being my new middle name.



Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..I started to think about the things SH said to me about how to act during Plan B, which was not to be totally dark and think SH has a reason for this. For example SH said not to change the locks or get rid of all his stuff, I think it is because he does not want me to wind H up but just really let him know that I will not tolerate OW. It has been 6 weeks since H left and he has only made a couple of attempts to move back. Either he has really checked out the rship or has someone else.
..

Now that makes sense, Steves advice, specially cause WH was on the edge and prone to violence. I don't think he would check out of the relationship unless he had someone else, or was at least playing the field. He seems to need a womens attention in some way.

You sound good Harmony. I hope my posts are helping you instead of triggering you and sounding way out in left field. Please tell me if I am going to far. I am not fishing for a compliment, rather I will back off if you don't need any reading material, lol. I am just throwing observations and different viewpoints out there to help you see things differently, instead of gloom and doom repetative thoughts.

JLs statement about your sis is a good idea, and I don't think she feels sorry for you because you are not in her position. I think maybe she identifies with how painful your sitch is, and wants you to know she understands.

I think because you are in this valley right now, and many emotional issues are troubling you, that it will work out better in the end because you are looking at every angle. We do our best changing in the valleys of life, and the depression is part of change and growth, even though I wish nobody had to go thru it. Its part of life and we want to help support, while you go thru it.

Sometimes, with me anyway, it helps to see things from a different angle, or outlook, and I need that and even search for it, to help things make sense. Many times something will have a different meaning, if I am open to it, as long as I remain grounded and realistic with prioritys in check. But that is part of reasoning we go thru in the seemingly endless time we wait and the truth allways sticks out in the end of the tunnel.

Just something about grace, it a beautiful thing, from the Bible, if I may.
----------------------------------------------------------

James 4:5-7 (New American Standard Bible)

5Or do you think that the Scripture (A)speaks to no purpose: "[a]He jealously desires (B)the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"?

6But (C)He gives a greater grace Therefore it says, "(D)GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."

7(E)Submit therefore to God (F)Resist the devil and he will flee from you.


Footnotes:
a.James 4:5 Or The spirit which He has made to dwell in us lusts with envy
Cross references:
A.James 4:5 : Num 23:19
B.James 4:5 : 1 Cor 6:19; 2 Cor 6:16
C.James 4:6 : Is 54:7; Matt 13:12
D.James 4:6 : Ps 138:6; Prov 3:34; Matt 23:12; 1 Pet 5:5
E.James 4:7 : 1 Pet 5:6
F.James 4:7 : Eph 4:27; 6:11; 1 Pet 5:8

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+4:5-7&version=NASB#cen-NASB-30343A
----------------------------------------------------------

If you are into it, or a believer that wants to learn from the scriptures, this is a great place to start learning how much God loves you, and has plans of a good future for you. Its the best support system ever, and where I go to eat when I need to be filled with truth.


Have a great weekend, keep up the good work.


Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Now, just be careful he does not talk you into giving him the NEW KEY!!!!

(this happens with many women in your situation)


Been Reading back through some earlier posts, well predicted Bubbles I let him sweet talk me into giving him the key smile
It all just really hurts. I am trying to climb my way out of this but it hurts. My bro arrived from Oz this morning to see my Dad, bro is staying with me so nice to have him in the house with me. Took him to see Dad I think he had quite a shock. Weird seeing Dad today, I kissed him, told him how much I loved him and how he was the best Dad. He had no energy but he managed to squeeze out 'I know chooks' and kissed me. This is hard I don't really want him to go.

Hard too without H around, it feels like he doesn't care. I am not sure how I feel about that, in conflict maybe, part of me misses and loves him and part of me struggles. All I know is that hurts too. I had another nightmare about him last night, I was stuck and couldn't get over him whilst he was getting on with his life and women and no longer cared.

Will I ever get over H?

JL - I have question for you if thats ok. Why do you think H is asking for 'time appart'? He said it in a good way, he listened to what I had to say and then he said, OK, I think we just need a little time appart....

Just wondered thats all.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/05/10 12:03 AM
Hi Harm,

Have not had time much to look at many stories here - I did look at Writer and MJ and posted, but that pretty much exhausted my time.

Still, wanted to wish you well, even tho I just glanced and skimmed your most recent posts. All I can say right now is that you have stayed and are trying, an no matter the outcome of your current situation and your marriage you are quickly becoming one of the valuable veterans here. I am meaning that in a very postive way Harm.

Am preparing for Char to be here next Wed. for a two day stay.

Tonight, well taco night. Just wish she was here tonight to enjoy as well. And no not a western, but going to catch up on "The Walking Dead" serious. Yea, am 68, but one of the films Char and I saw when dating was night of living dead at a drive-in in Madison WI back in 1968.

Anyway, one of my thougths is to attempt to make baked lemon chichen for us for next week - like chicken breasts, lemon juice, rosemary, oregano, rice, green beans. I have never ever cooked chicken before...any suggestions.

Take care Harm.

Tom


Harmony,

My guess and it is only a guess is that he is hiding and avoiding making a decision. He cannot face what he has done and what you have done, thus avoidance seems to be his method of operating right now. He could be seeing one of the OW, but that would be guessing. His actions clearly indicate avoidance, the why is the mystery.

I will say that as you endure your Dad's illness that you consider your life in the future. I recommend that you start to realize that YOU must lead your life and share if fully with someone that wants to share it with you.

Just some thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
...Hard too without H around, it feels like he doesn't care. I am not sure how I feel about that, in conflict maybe, part of me misses and loves him and part of me struggles. All I know is that hurts too. I had another nightmare about him last night, I was stuck and couldn't get over him whilst he was getting on with his life and women and no longer cared.

Will I ever get over H?

Have you ever tried meditation to control your thoughts? Its not hippy crap, it really works.

Seems that every time you post, a lot of what hurts is guessing and worrying about things that you wonder about.

Just try it. It could help you hear all the thoughts buzzing around causing you frustration, and you then can reason them away.

Prayers for your Dad, and peace to you.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Harmony,
My guess and it is only a guess is that he is hiding and avoiding making a decision. He cannot face what he has done and what you have done, thus avoidance seems to be his method of operating right now. He could be seeing one of the OW, but that would be guessing. His actions clearly indicate avoidance, the why is the mystery....

My thoughts too, and its not her job to read minds, or his.

Just take care of your own thoughts and actions Harmony, as long as he is gone, and not willing to accept help, thats all you can do.
Harmony, FWIW, the reason I needed to be apart from my H before I would consider reconciling was that I had to be READY for whatever he was going to throw my way, which I knew was going to be�. interesting.

I was so incredibly raw. My fear demanded that I take time to insulate myself from him, to put in place yet another level of protection, to be absolutely certain my internal walls were well fortified. I recognize that that isn�t the proper attitude for a WS to have, and don�t care.

That time truly was for ME and had not one thing to do with OM. It wasn�t so much avoidance as it was processing and preparation.

Helen Fischer, an anthropologist, has an interesting observation about infidelity that I haven�t seen discussed much and that is that the unfaithful spouse may be resistant to reconciliation because of fear of the faithful spouse�s rage that seeks to annihilate that unfaithful spouse. I�ve read numerous threads and posts from faithful spouses on this forum who fit that description perfectly. I think Harley addresses this issue with his prohibition on ever discussing the A after the details are out, but that position doesn�t seem very popular on the forum.

Helen Fischer gives an interesting talk on the brain chemistry of love at the Ted Talks, link here: Helen Fisher Ted Talk

I'm a Ted Talk junkie. Check out Sir Ken Robinson as well if you are interested in education and conventional wisdom.

I don�t know if that is what is going on with your H or not, but thought I would throw it out there for you to consider. I�m trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt which is becoming difficult, but maybe he truly is conflicted.

I have to say that him not showing up to support you with your dad is very telling. This isn�t something he can fix later.

CP is right � these are the times you learn SO much, but the price paid for the knowledge can seem way out of whack.

Brothers are AWESOME though -- hang onto that! I gave up my brother under the "if they knew about the A and didn't tell your H they have to go" rule. The daily pain of knowing I'm not permitted to call him is really the worst part of the whole gig for me. Just compensation sucks. Maybe someday H will allow me to reconnect. Or maybe not.

This is an opportunity for you to really bond with your brother -- he could become one of your best friends in all the world.

I�m so sorry you are going through this -- I wish I had more to offer.


Interesting link about Love...

Seriously, I'd love to see you start an "other topics forum" thread to discuss just that video as it really seems to support much of Dr. Harley's work and theories, the fundamental basis of which is that long term romantic love is obtainable and sustainable in marriage.


Speaking of love and your comment about the posters on MB...I believe I see a lot of the posts you so perceive here on MB with much different lenses. A lot of people put a lot of their time, hopes and LOVE into voluntarily helping people, both waywards and betrayed's alike, as they deal with, process and overcome this issue of infidelity. We/they are NECESSARILY tough at times but we/they, for the most part (we get more than our share of trolls and liars on this board from time to time but they tend to get banned pretty quick nowadays), are TRYING to be helpful. We are not professional marital counselors and we are human...we make mistakes, misstatements and are NOT always right. If you met me, my wife, Melody Lane, MaritalBliss, Vibrissa, Justlearning, Mark1922, Saynomore, not2fun, Markos, PrincessMeggy, Tully, LousyGolfer, BlackRaven, etc, etc., etc., in real life, you'd like us. We are truly internet friends united here to help individuals and marriages by giving back all that we gained here. We are friends of your marriage.

It is good to see your individual spirit coming out. Keep it up. You seem to be gaining in self-confidence. That will hopefully aid your recovery.

Mr. Wondering

[sidebar - what if nothing you heard about me/us was true? You really should ask questions and request proof and then question "proof". It's what we were trained to do, counselor. For example, despite claims, I never posted a link to any individual posters xw's state supreme court case. So why do some say I did? Do they deliberately lie to "annihilate" me or my reputation?. No - I think not. My posts here over 5 years speak for themselves. Instead I believe it's a conspiracy of lies and half (or less) truths to undermine YOURS (and others) relationship and trust of the persons, principals and principles (the Harleys) of and on this board that have been trying to help you, and harmony and hundreds of other persons for a long time now. Essentially, "they" are attacking you and your marriage as their sole motivation is to get you away from here, NOT to help you, your husband and your family. YOU need to beware the honey that drips from the unrepentant adulterers, fornicators, abusers, liars and other nefarious person's lips. To them you are nothing more than a poker chip...to us, you are a potential future success story. Post wherever you want. There are plenty of people coming in daily that want and could really use our time so it's no loss to US. IMO, MB really is the best. It has done wonders in my personal life so truly YOU (and your family) will be the ones missing out. Remember too...that most of us are happily recovered and romantically in love with our former wayward spouses. We have experienced first hand the journey our former wayward spouses went on from wayward to repentance, through just compensation to restoration and full recoveries and romantic love and all of us HOPE the same for you. WE are truly NOT the "haters" nor the "abusers". So who is??? Just something to ponder. I don't need or want a response at all and do not anticipate a discussion..especially here on Harmony's thread. If you have any questions or need assistance...my wife and I share an email address below. Email my wife.

I apologize to others if this makes no sense to them...it's not really supposed to.
Morning Guys

Thanks for your posts, as ever thanks for your time and support.

It is a confusing time for me as sometimes I am not sure if I am grieving over my Dad or my H. Things make sense now why my Dad was trying to support me this year in my situation as he wanted to see my situation 'sorted'. I really hope that I have not disappointed him.

I do feel low, and I know it will only be temporary. I just have to climb out of it somehow. I feel a little better today.

It is so hard though. I guess I am frightened of not being able to get over my H if things don't work out, and never being able to forgive myself for bringing this on myself. I have not being able to forgive myself for my A, and it seems to get worse. In my own paranoia I feel as though people are thinking it serves her right.

In regards to H, my imagination runs wild. Whatever he may be doing it can't be that bad otherwise he would be making attempts to come home. It seems in the first couple of weeks since I started Plan B, that he made 3 attempts to return home.

I have read lots of other threads here on MB, there was one thread which was similiar where there was a FWW and her H went into withdrawal and had a revenge affair. The advice that the FWW was getting was slightly different to mine and it was more about, chipping away at her H to show how much she had changed and let him know she was thinking of her. The thread title was "want to work marriage out after my affair".

My H sent a card to my Dad. It was a nice card, talking about one of the happy memories my H and I had shared with my Dad. It really affected me.

I am so confused. One part of me is angry with him for the horrendous way he has treated me this year and feel that I should give up and file. The there is this other part of me that feels that I treated him horrendously and that he checked out of the M and I should me making more effort to win him back.

At the end of the day he has not filed for D, has not made it clear that he has no one else and still tries to maintain some contact and has not taken the rest of the stuff away therefore he does not want to make it final. What will it take to bring him back? Have I got so weak that I will take him back at any cost? Then work on the issues....

Maybe I need a session with SH to work these things out.

I do feel slightly annoyed as he was starting to break in Plan B, coming round very upset and angry and his imagination running wild with what I am doing. Then I broke Plan B, and he seems to be a lot calmer again.

I really do feel that the only thing that is going to work is me cutting off all contact, moving on with my life, and going out and about showing I am happy (essentially Plan B). Only then when he sees me moving in will he come back and offer an olive branch. This is difficult with whats happening with Dad.

There is always this need to protect myself, and try and end things in my mind as I am scared if I hang in on hope that I will get some bad news such as

I have a new GF
I got someone pregnant
I have found a place to rent
I can never forgive you
I am happier without you

So there is that need to mentally try and get over him.

I have taken a real beating too and feel that my confidence is at an all time low. My ability to mess up my M, that I am dour and unhappy, that I can't get my chit together. H said a lot of things to me which I still hear such as I am not fun and that I am never made enough effort with his family and so on...

There is also a small part of thats thinks what would life be like with someone new. Not talking about doing this unless I am D, but it has start to crss my mind. There were a lot of issues with H, and the thought of being with someone new who perhaps I a more compatible has started to cross my mind.

Once again, thanks for being here. SOmetimes if I am honest I wander of MB does me any good, I think it has given me lots of HOPE. Something I would have given up on a long time ago and maybe that would have been a good thing......

Sorry lots of rambling but these are my thoughts.
What your going through is tough. No advice or observations right now. Heading out the door. TTYL

Hugs to you
P.S.
You wandering thoughts about your WH; girlfriend, pregnancy, can/will forget you, better without you...ect.

are 100% normal IMO. That does not mean they are true or rational, just that your brain is trying to put forth reasons for the situation.
That is why I think plan b is helpful. It trys to get you away from focusing on these scenarios.

The dreams get very wild, don't they?
Hi Harmony,
Just wanted to check in on you, I think where your thoughts are these days is very normal, I think when you are faced with losing someone you love it puts things in perspective about wasting life itself.......
It makes you figure out what is important, you may find this to be true and clearer during this time in your life, you are grieving for both I think your father and your husband........
Harmony, I think you know that your husband must know what you are going through and he has chosen to stay away during your time of need, I think if this was me I would know that maybe he is really moved on without me, times like this most people can put aside our own feelings for a bit and be supportive.
I'm not seeing this, I realize you are separated but you would think he would show more interest in your well being if he truly was interested in working things out with you..............
Plan B is a very good idea for you and I think when you come through all of this with your father and you reconnect with your family a bit you will be wiser and I think the rest of your life will be in clear focus............
My thoughts are with you and I pray for your family and for clarity for you......
Future thoughts are a good thing, mistakes are part of life.........makes us strong and able to cope with whatever life throws at us.............you are there.........
What Jessie says is true about greiving. Losing a mate feels like a death also, because it is a seriuos loss to you.
Just take your time and don't panic, this too shall pass.
Read the Helen Fisher link. There was a special on "The science of attraction" done on TV about a month ago also that talked about brain chemistry and love. What was surprising was of course, they could even measure couples who had been together years and were still in love. The dopamine still flowed, but it was more deep and complex, using different areas of the brain.

But its no surprise to us is it? Its a drive in us, beyond sexual and it will allways be there in some way. A passion for relationship and in that way we are important, because someone else loves us too.

Sorry don't wanna start the tear jerker effect. Just being honest with friends here. It hurts for now because it is normal to feel pain Harmony from all this. Its good for me to hear I was not a fool for loving my late wife, and holding onto hope even when she was really messing up her emotional and physical health, even if it was just for my children, to show them you don't give up, you stick, "In sickness or in health". My wife left me when I was sick and out of work when her fear and addiction took over, but that doesn't mean I would leave her out on the street, and my kids know and respect that about me, and themselves too.

So now there is no one person I can focus on, except myself, and in a way, that is where we all should be most of the time, while we are confidant our mate is watching our back. It doesn't mean that they are and this site is proof that people make grave mistakes that carry cosequences to thier relationships, but it also is a place of healing for those accepting that they are human, fallable, and in need of guidance in life and love.

Hope you find comfort in knowing that love exists and is important Harmony for all of us, and knowing your on your way to healing.

God Bless
Hello MB Friends

My Daddy (I seem to call him that rather than Dad at the mo!) passed away the early hours of Monday morning. I really didn't want him to go, but I knew he had enough. He saw my bro, then 36 hours later went.

I am actually doing OK and seem to be supporting my older sisters, talk about role reversal. I can only credit this place for making me strong enough to get through this.

I hope I am not going to have some kind of delayed reaction, but I feel the tears will probably come in the future when I need to speak to him about something.

I have an update on H too, but later....
I am so sorry for your loss Harmony. I understand about losing your "daddy". There just are no words.

(((Harmony)))
I'm so sorry for your loss, Harmony.

Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/10/10 11:52 AM
So very sorry, Harmony. I lost my daddy this year, too.

frown
Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/10/10 12:44 PM
Hi Harmony. Been reading all your posts. Just wanted to tell you I'm sorry for your loss. Will post more to you later, right now take care of yourself. Mitzie
I am so sorry. My thoughts are with you.
Hi Harmony,
So sorry to hear about your daddy's passing,
Good men are hard to give up Harmony.........it takes time..........
You are blessed to have had time in the end with him, cherish that time forever, he will always have his place in your heart..........
(hugs)
jessi
Very sorry to hear of your loss Harmony. My thoughts and prayers go out to you and your family during this difficult time.
I'm very sorry for your loss, dear Harmony
(((((hugs))))
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/10/10 08:53 PM
((((((Harmony))))))

Sorry for your loss. Prayers are going out to you. Take care hun
Harmony, I am so sorry to hear about your daddy...keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.

(((Harmony)))
Guys

thanks for your hugs and prayers.

I have not shed a tear all week but they are starting to flow. I can't believe he is gone.

It doesn't feel real.
Ok so here is the update. H has kept contacting me to find out what is happening with dad.

Eventually agreed to meet with him. H came to the house to fix a few things, gave me hug and took me for a few drinks. We had a good time together did not discuss the relationship, had some laughs and talked about what we had both been upto. During the evening H brought up old times, made it clear he was spending time with friends and family. H also made a few comments about things in the house running down hill since he left. H mentioned lots of things that he had been doing since we split such as running ect, and I made a comment what's this do all the things Harmony wanted you to do just after you split

Overall H was almost back to his old good self. He was extremely upset about my dad,could not even talk about it. Anywayhe wanted to k ow when the funeral is and if he could come with me.

I agreed to let him come, although I am confused as to why HD is doing that?

I am not sure what H is upto?
Posted By: Meggin Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/10/10 11:18 PM
{{{{Harmony}}}}
I'm so very sorry for your loss. My father passed about 14 years ago. You are very much in my prayers.
Harmony,

I am so sorry to hear about your Dad. It is a very traumatic thing to have a parent pass. I know you will miss him in the future, and your sorrow will surface of that I am sure.

I would like to offer you something to think about. My father passed over 22 years ago, and a month later so did my W's. Both of those men are still in our lives in ways it is hard to explain.

When I have a decision to make, I still hear my father's advice on life and matters of life ringing in my head and I smile. Did you know that my father has gotten smarter through out these years? smile Well it is true. I didn't know one keeps learning even after passing but the man is really really smart.

Now all of this might sound a little silly to you, but mark my words you have not LOST YOUR DAD. He is part of you and you will carry that part for the rest of your life.

Grieve his passing Harmony, but don't grieve his loss. He is still with you.

That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

God Bless,

JL
Sorry to hear of your loss Harmony,

I wanted to express the same as JL Harmony, so I won't repeat it. What he says is so true. My Dad is in a nursing home, and unable to comunicate with people anymore, but I still remeber his words and how they formed who I am, as well as his teaching.

They still are there in my heart, and if I have any strength as a man, it came from him.


I am glad you have spent some good time with your H. I don't see why he couldn't accompany you to the service. You can support each other.


Peace to you and to your family

He will be watching over you allways, and he lives on in you.
Sorry about your Dad.
I lost my Dad Sept.
Still raw.
hug
Quote
I agreed to let him come, although I am confused as to why HD is doing that?

I am not sure what H is upto?

I hope his motives are pure but chances are they're not. He could just be taking advantage of your vulnerability about your dad, but I hope not.

Your call but watch your back.
H called me tonight, I think I got my hopes up after seeing him weds. I thought he might ask to see me this weekend but he didn't. I am hurting so much from H not being there, this dipping in and out is not helping.

I get the feeling he is feeling very guilty about he has behaved this past year and thus is about his conscience...

I hope I am wrong. All I know us that since he left 6 weeks ago he has tried to have contact every few days, surely that must tell him something.

Sick of waiting for him. Also I needed him to be there to help me through this.

This has put me in a spin, I never want to go through this again.

Sometimes I read Hopeful Person threed and feel that I should continue to be nice to H in the hope that he comes round, then I feel like he is messing me around and that he is happy being friends dhildt I am not.

JL please can you shed some light for me please.

To be honest H has put me through hell and back this year, whilst I have watched my father die and now it feels like he can come along and be there for me to ease his own conscience. I feel so very angry right now, I need him all the time!
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
To be honest H has put me through hell and back this year, whilst I have watched my father die and now it feels like he can come along and be there for me to ease his own conscience. I feel so very angry right now, I need him all the time!

Well, then. Don't let it be about him. If you need the support, take the support. However, don't get all tied up in the goody good.

Remember your goals and boundaries - you are suffering a loss on top of a loss, I would say for now you have the complete right to let your taker drive for a bit to help you get through.
Ok this how I feel and this is what I would like to say to my H, thoughts please.

I think you need to leave me be. You think that turning up to the funeral is 'support'. What about those nights when he was ill in hospital and you stated out the night with other women. What about when I received more bad news about his treatment and you were off on another boys weekend. Sorry but your support Is not required and I won't be used to ease your conscience. This migt be a surprise to you, but I am very hurt.
This is not very MB.

I imagine that you are so upset about your fathers loss that you do not really need any negative feedback right now.

What do you think this statement is going to mean to your WH? What do you want it to mean?
guilt?

WS do not really feel guilt that I have seen here, reading these threads.

So let it sufice to say that the above statement, imo, is still really you focusing all about him. You need to focus on you.
All sorts of things were running through my head so I phoned H. I needed to understand some things. I need to feel comfortable about H going to the funeral.

I was calm and in control and non confrontational. I explained to my H that I was not angry with him I just needed to explain how I was feeling. He actually responded that it was OK and it was important for him to understand. I said that the funeral was going to be a tough day for me and I needed to understand some things beforehand.

I said to him that the situation between us was weird, and he agreed. I said that I needed to know if he was going for the right reasons on Thursday and that I didn't want him to go out of guilt or to ease his own conscience. He said that he wanted to go as he wanted to be able to support me, that he should be there and that my Dad was a part of his life too. I said OK that is fine I just needed to know. I then explained from my point of view I find it difficult because he has not supported me though the last few months of his illness, and thats when I needed him and it feels like H is turning up now. H responded by saying that he did not understand the seriousness of the situation. My goodness, well he had cancer and he was in hospital with pneumonia if that isn't serious what is? He also added that he wants to be there for me just like any other friend would be. So we are friends now are we?

Then I said to him, part of me is concerned that if he does not go to the funeral that I am not sure if we ever did reconcile how I could get over that, so from theat point of view it is important he be there. He said he understood but wanted to be there for me anyway. He then added that he needed to know that I didn't just need him now, that how would I feel 2-4 months down the road, would I no longer need him? I didn't say anything to that, as I am fed up trying to convince him of reasons to be with me. It always feels like I am begging him or something, so I just stayed quiet.

I also added that if he was with anyone else or seeing other woman, that I would rather him leave me alone and stay away. I said that it was not to punish him but to protect myself as I still had feelings for him. That if he wanted to see OW then he should be honest with me so I can move on with my life. I explained that I was not comfortable for example with him turning up at the funeral, if he had been out with a girl the night before. That I could not stop him if he wants to see someone else but he needs to let me know. He was adamant that he was not seeing any other woman, and that that there was no one else.

I then said to him that I would like to see him before the funeral on Thursday and didn't want to just see him that day, he said OK and how about we meet Monday? So I agreed.

He ended the conversation by saying how much he enjoyed meeting up with me on Weds and that he really enjoyed it and had a really nice time.

I am so tired and weary with it, I need my H here supporting me now.

I am glad I had the conversation with him. At least I am not making any assumptions about the situation and felt like I handled that well. On a positive note I feel like I make really good decisions now and that I have some good answers I just need to listen to myself.

Please help shed some light on what he is doing?
I think H was been really hurt and doesn't want to put himself in that position again, I think he loves me and can't seem to stay away or let go, but what can i do to get him back in again?

I am struggling to see which strategy to follow. Do I do what Hopeful Person did and back off and show him I am happy on my own and how much I have changed and get to know him and be friends again? Or do I after the funeral move back into Plan B and only let him in if he is commited to the marriage?

JL, Pepperband are you out there?

My heart hurts for you, Sweetheart...

You are in my prayers...

God Bless


Any contact with him leaves me messed up, I have had a really bad day and feel that I have let H get to me.

Ahhhhh!

I love Plan B and feel that if i had stuck to it, it might have worked....
So are you saying you broke plan b??
OK Harmony,

You have me confused. You said
Quote
I feel so very angry right now, I need him all the time!

And then you say
Quote
I think you need to leave me be. You think that turning up to the funeral is 'support'. What about those nights when he was ill in hospital and you stated out the night with other women. What about when I received more bad news about his treatment and you were off on another boys weekend. Sorry but your support Is not required and I won't be used to ease your conscience. This migt be a surprise to you, but I am very hurt.

So are you playing victim here or are you playing grown up? You need to make up your mind. Harmony, the loss of a parent is a very very traumatic thing. Frankly, you should leave major decisions alone for awhile. At least that is my opinion. On the other hand if your second thoughts are what you really feel tell him that and move on.

Why are you expecting him to rescue you? Why are you expecting him to lead your life for you? Why are you putting your happiness in the hands of a man that is out with other women and on boys weekends? You don't need a "boy" in your life, you need a man. But, you appreciate a man you need to be woman enough to lead your life.

You have some decisions to make, and they go back to what you want, what your boundaries are, and where your moral compass points you. Grieve the passing of your Dad. As you heal from that, prepare to lead your life.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Thanks for your response JL and thanks everyone for your messages regarding my Dad.

These have to have been the worst 2 years of my life, I hope things don't get worse.

I love my H and have no clue what is going on in that head of his. I have done so much to try and recover the M and get so many mixed messages from him. He tells me that he is not seeing anybody, that he has taken up running and snowboarding lessons as he knew I always wanted to do this with him, that he is not that happy and hates living with his parents, and he has not filed for divorce, transfered his post, put our house on the Market and continues to contact me every few days. The only words that have not cone out of his mouth is that he wants to get back with me.

What does he want?

What can I do to save this M and get him home?

Do I give him an ultimatum?

I can't wait any longer, time is ticking for me. Maybe I need a session with SH.

JL I know what you are saying about making a big decision but sometimes if I k re what was going on that decision would be easier to make.
I don't think I can cope anymore. It's all just too much.

Hey, you dont have to do anything today. Wait a few weeks before deciding anything. Nothing you do today will have any effect. Just relax and take the burdon off of yourself. Give it a few weeks, you just had the psychological blow of the Dad's passing you cannot and should not expect yourself to remain clear about things.

In the future you might try these two things before taking him back.

1. A polygraph to see if he is with another woman or what he did with how many other women.

2. A private investigator now to see what is up with him.

3. A counselor to help him become a better man and get your marriage on a good track


Because of your husband's physical abuse, I would leave him and get a divorce pronto but that is just me. I happen to believe that no one should stay with a physical/psychological abuser. On top of that theSE facts that he cheats and drinks too much and gets out of control.... would be icing on the cake to leave him. If you ever want children, this man has to completely change his life, his personality, and his morals. And that will take a lot of very hard work.

It is very very hard for someone to change all that he is now. Certainly if you want a happy marriage...or you want to create precious children, you would not be able to do it with this man now or in the near future.

It might take 5-7 years to work hard at the marriage, have this man work very very hard to get himself to NOT CHEAT, BE MATURE, CUT THE OUT OF CONTROL DRINKING and LEARN TO HAVE A GOOD MARRIAGE WITH YOU. In addition, you would have to change yourself completely, your enabling behavior, your low self esteem (evident by what you put up with from this man, and your affair behaviors with other men) and your morals. Leepords rarely really change thier spots.

Do you two want to work very very very hard TOGETHER and make a number of difficult changes?????

I would leave him and get an attorney on Monday. But of course you may not be ready for that. You might instead find out if he is lying to you now and see if you can make the 7 years of hard changes you two need to make to be ready to have a good marriage and create a family.
Thanks Bubbles you are so kind. I have to give myself some time to deal with my dear Dad passing.

As JL says I need to stop putting my happiness in his hands, I see him, get my expectations up and then get all upset and angry.

I need to just focus on myself and not worry about what he is upto. I can't make a decision right now.

Thank you all so much. I am a much calmer person since I came here just wish my H wanted to share that with me.



Did you ever get an IC Harmony? For all of us who worry about you, and are able to do much more than give you advice, from the very speculative point of view of a computer keyboard,(and quite personnaly insulated BTW, which it should be), we can't take the place of someone trained and sees you face to face.

Have you seen a grief counselor? I am not saying you need to stay wallowing in grief, but it is a process, with steps in it, that each person goes thru at thier own pace, and in thier own order. There are also books to help you understand what happens. Its a place where you are alone, but yet have not been the first one to experience the process. Even though there is no cookie cutter way to go through it, everyone goes through the stages as they apply to them, and denial is part of it.

This forum is not qualified or is its members to really look into your eyes and read your body launguage or does it know you in real life enough to help you as much as an IC counselor. Again that is what makes this a good place to discuss matters of a personal nature because it is all thought and intelectual, which we all need also in reasoning things out. But it has that place and thats it. The pain you are going thru with losing Dad, and not having H to really lean on because of His issues, must be awful right now.

Psychologcally you really are going thru two grieving periods and processes, its about feeling alone, probably the most painful thing someone can feel, abandoned and alone. Its like a death when a spouse doesn't care for you anymore, especially when it is by choice, and you were allready going thru this when your Dad passed, which just deepened it more. Trying to lean on H when it feels like he might pull the rug out from under you is probably a bad idea now, and I worry that the underling fear that you have might play games with your mind, and you will seek comfort from the wrong places.

Please talk to SH. I bet he will tell you to draw close to what family you believe love you, and what freinds you can trust have your best intersests at heart, along with the advice to let your marriage issues go for now until you process some of Dads passing. He might even suggest an IC, IDK.

We will all be here supporting you with the best of our capacity and ability, you can count on that, as well as you can count on this passing also from your life. I would just feel better if you had an IC, someone you could call, that could help you share this stuff, and process it too.

Prayers for you, your going to be OK. God bless
I do have low self esteem, something for me to work on. Problem is others would laugh at that as most people see me as attractive so when I use to ask H if I looked nice or wanted a compliment he would tell me I'm vain.

But yes need to work on not needing others approval, but believe me the fact that I am confident more in my own decisions, the fact that I can self soothe, the fact that I am less afraid of conflict and communicating how I feel, are massive steps forward.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..I am a much calmer person since I came here just wish my H wanted to share that with me.

Yeah, most people will get that. But then there is that old adage,"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". Just make sure you do. Many good people who care about you are here, and are sharing your pain with you. I hope to share in your joy also some day. One day at a time right now ok?
Yes ok Constant, thank you.

I do sometimes question why I want my H back, only for the right reasons though. In the meantime keep working on myself, next project low self esteem!

I get confused about how to proceed with H.
I get confused because of how he has treated me, I know I treated him bad, but he has purposely gone out to see me suffer.

Oh well I know I can forgive he has just never asked for it.
do sometimes question why I want my H back, only for the right reasons though. In the meantime keep working on myself, next project low self esteem!

I get confused about how to proceed with H.


Here is a novel and different thought for you. Did you ever consider that neither YOU nor your HUSBAND were ready for marriage to each other?

1. You both have low self esteem
2. You need the approval of others
3. You have not yet learned to know yourself and love yourself
4. You depend on other men for assurance you are attractive
5. You NEED other men for approval, attention, and diversion
6. You have not learned to stand emotionally on your own feet
7. Your husband is out of control in various areas such as drinking behavior, physical and emotional abuse to others, need for other women, etc.
8. You are out of control in various areas such as MEN, NEEDING MEN AREA, needing others to define you, confusion as to who you are and what YOU LIKE in life, morals are confused as you are willing to cheat on a loved one, you demand attention from men, you are weak around men and forget who YOU are around them, you depend a lot on men to decide important things for you,,,,etc,,,,etc,,,

All these things tell me you were not AND ARE NOT NOW ready for marriage to anyone. So therefore your marriage to your husband was doomed from the start as is any future marriage until you WORK THESE THINSG OUT FOR YOURSELF.

If you agree your marriage with this man was doomed from the start, the choice is easy. Either redo the entire marriage and both of your personalities to create a NEW GOOD MARRIAGE to this man.....will take 6-8 years....



OR: Move on and get a divorce, work hard on your issues, and meet the perfect match for YOU and get married and have a wonderful family and marriage for the rest of your life!~!!!!

For you, you can work on these things and more to make yourself into the woman who could have a good marriage and family.

1. Crystalize your own moral values and agree with yourself, IN STONE, to never cheat again.

2. Figure out why you need the attention of various men so badly and QUIT ALL THAT BEHAVIOR.

3. Figure out who YOU are and what YOU like and what YOU want in YOUR life (apart from any person including any men)

4. Quit letting men rule your life or support it emotionally or otherwise

5. Find out why you seem to need MEN to prop you up.

6. Take the props away (MEN) and learn what you have left.

7. Learn all about yourself and learn to love yourself

8. Develop inner confidence apart from your looks

9. Hone out a plan for your life that you develop yourself

10. Do a 1 year plan for your life on paper

11. On paper, Do a 2 year 5 year and 10 year plan/projection of where you want your life to be specifically where you want to live, how you want to live, who you want to be with, what pets you want, children, etc. How you want to BE. How you want to BEHAVE, how you want to interact with others.

This is the hard work you must do in payment for a wonderful marriage and family. Others can add to this list. If you do this hard work on YOURSELF and FOR YOURSELF, you can be ready for the RIGHT MAN at the RIGHT TIME and have a GREAT MARRIAGE AND FAMILY!!!!
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I do have low self esteem, something for me to work on. Problem is others would laugh at that as most people see me as attractive so when I use to ask H if I looked nice or wanted a compliment he would tell me I'm vain...

My late wife was model material in the looks dept. I get it where people assume that if your good-looking, you must have it made, and problems are not really problems.

She could allways get attention from men, there was allways some guy wanting to be her hero, and she could play the part well also when she was scared and desparate enough. It was either talking about her horrible childhood, or another embarasing Damsel in Distress thing she would do, that she would hate herself for after when she came to her senses. The woman inside was who I loved. She allways came back seeking forgivness when she would go out on a tear and do something she knew she shouldn't because she paniced. I understood that, and actively forgave her, sucked up my pride and belived the best even though it hurt me, because in my mind, I was not going to let her tear herself up more, because I believed in her, and I saw who she was and how she really loved.

But when things scared her, and she was afraid, she would get angry and bitter at the world. She would fight back by being nasty and self-destructive as any teenager who rebels at those times. She did not want to grow up, and like many other people in the world, there allways seems to be a place you can go to play games. Her loss was in her self-worth, and the most visible worth on the outside was her looks, so she used it. That with the complication of her having alcohol problems, was her downfall.

I could have remained her friend at a distance if we did not have a child together while she worked things out. It was like jeckle and hyde. What a wonderful woman she was not drinking, more than any man could ask for, and she will allways be the love of my life. I am still processing the loss of THAT woman, the one my children saw also,and let me tell you, it will confuse and be an issue that will haunt my children all thier life. It is getting better, she is at peace now, and we still are letting her go.

It still haunts me, so unessesary a loss of a beautiful lady. Such a capacity to love others, and none to love herself, or to trust that it wasn't about control of what others thought of her. or thier opinions of her.

I remember a story she told me when she was working at 20 at a bar in her home town. Like I said, she was an exteremly beautiful woman, offered to be a model and her friends said her looks, "exuded sex". She had that exotic look about her, tall, dark hair and she was part indian too which added to it. Well, she was not looking to date anyone at that time, and kept pretty much to herself. There were rumors being spread about her, that she was a lesbian, or that she was a hooker. She told me that story about the time when I first met her, and I shared with her the opinion that all that gossip was about the people who spread it, and thier own insecurities. You could tell that still bothered her.

You know looks are really just a reflection of health, and often abused by the ones blessed enough to have health. The beauty inside is so often overlooked or ignored in this world, I am glad you are responding to the character and people here who are truly living in that reality that what you do, reflects true beauty.

Your gonna be OK, time Harmony, you have all the time in the world, and don't panic about anything.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I don't think I can cope anymore. It's all just too much.

What do you mean? {{harmony}}
Bubs, thats am awsome list, may we all do those things.

I think Harmony in many ways found herself here like others have who thought marriage was gonna take care of itself, and relationships too, until things fell apart.

Now she has to do it, and she is learning that, but like all of us sometimes think, we deserve it now.

Right now, she needs to take some time and go slowly, with freinds to support her, in the very things you mention.

MelodyLane wrote something to me when I first joined here after losing my wife. It is good advice. Here it is.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
sortingitout, I am so sorry you are here. I went through a similar trauma in my life in 1999. My H of 20 years left me for another woman, my 18 yr old son was killed, and my other child [17 DS] moved in with my H and the OW because I wouldn't be his "friend." I lost my whole family in that year. I went from being a married woman with 2 children to a divorced woman with no children. I was all alone.

But you know what helped me the MOST? It was not nursing my grief and talking about my losses, it was in building up my life again and keeping my focus on a healthy path of recovery. I started dating [way too soon!], working out daily, going out with friends and focusing on my career and friendships. I didn't talk about losses, but focused on my new life. I forced myself to get out of bed every morning and go to work - ALL DAY.

I had been led to believe that I could not HEAL unless I "talked it all out" but I found that my membership in a grief group kept me triggered and full of anxiety. Just one session in a grief support group would cause me so much sadness and grief that I did not want to even get out of bed for 3 days.

I didn't know WHY, but I did know that continually talking about it and being around other SAD people was horrendous to my mental health, not helpful. So I stopped it. I went through the motions of a happy, normal person and surrounded myself with emotionally healthy influences. When my grief became too much, I threw myself into weightlifting and aerobics. My feelings eventually followed my actions. I brought the body and the mind followed.

Little did I know at the time that studies actually show that my method was the fastest path to healing. Studies have shown that victims of trauma actually do much worse when they are in GRIEF counseling because they are constantly triggered by the trauma. They suffer much higher levels of depression and have a harder time adjusting to life again. I read all this LATER in a book titled One Nation Under Therapy by Christina Hoff Summers and Salley Satel, MD. It was a huge eye opener for me. Everything they said in there rang true for me.

It also lines up with Dr Harley's philosophy. [Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist and the founder of Marriage Builders] He does not believe in discussing past unpleasant events. He believes in focusing on making the present and future GREAT. I tend to agree with him, because that has been my exact experience.

So that is my suggestion. The problems of the past are gone and can't be resolved. But the present and the future can be great. They can't be great if you are focusing on the past, though. That is my message to you. Leave the past where it belongs, and look forward. smile

I remember that I need to fight for something. That in my life it has been the question, "What will I fight and die for?"

When I look at the men and women who died for our country and thier sacrifice and conviction, and that they died to protect our right for freedom, I respect and believe that anybody who gave me freedom, loves me.

There are chains that bind us in our fear of change, and in our minds we must fight them also. When we don't feel worth it, or have the luxury of feeling sorry for ourselves, life just might bring change whether we like it or not. It seems unfair, and maybe others have hurt us, but we must still fight. How we will fight is very much the issue, and what we stand for.

I have never been a "The end justifies the means", person. So sometimes walking away from a foolish argument is an active part of fighting the crap. Sorta like the proverb, "Follow a fool into his folly and become as foolish as them" I won't win at the expense of others, or feel I have won anything by hurting them.

So we choose our battles, and we come out with bloody noses or worse sometimes, but its all good, as we grow.


The real battle is within ourselves, our fears and expectations. and the losses we think we have when others hurt us.

High words I know, but you only have one chance to live your life right, and I still aspire to do so, not because I think I am worth it by my own definition, but as we all do by Gods.

So will Harmony come to a place of safety inside and atart thinking life is not so bad? That there is hope she can fight and change her life from the inside out? I certainly think so. I know God does, and when she realizes, like we all nned to, that her destiny is in her hands alone. She will hopefully fight for what she wants with the full knowledge she has no other choice, and that is exactly where God wants her.
Take a break Harmony, Cyberhugs young lady
Hi Barbie

I just feel sometimes that I can't cope and that I just feel such a failure.

I feel a failure for not being healthy enough to be in a great marriage with a family, and I feel its so far way.

I may have been triggered as I just found out a friend of mine is 13 weeks pregnant, she has been with her partner for 6 months. I want that so much.

I am also a frustration for everyone around me as they see my just stuck in limbo still, they have seen me like this now for nearly 2 years. So I feel they are dissapointed.

Sorry not asking for pity party. JUst the way I feel. Otherwise why would I be in this situation at 35? Because I have made some horrendous choices, so what does that make me? Confidence crisis.

HI Bubbles

Thanks for your post, there were some very good suggestions. I like the idea of having a plan that would be GREAT.

I would like to have a plan to move forward, but why do I need to work on myself so much, I thought I had come a long way? Surely I don't need that much work. I am not that bad. I would say that I am quite strong in relation to a lot of my friends ect...

I have a friend who has been single for 6 years and comes across as desperate, I have a friend who is 37 and has only had a 6 month relationship, I have a friend who just went out and had a baby with a married man, and I have a friend who is incapable of being on her own.

So I think I am quite strong dealing with all of this and getting on well.

I just struggle to understand if H is really that bad and abusive or just hurt and confused?

I need to take control of the situation as he isn't, perhaps when the funeral is over will be the time to sit down and POJA what is going to happen so we can both move forward. I cannot Plan B for a definete amount of time. I have my bio clock to consider.

Thank you all for listenging to me, it must be painful surely smile

Hi Constant

Thanks for your post re Melody. You know what I come here and vent but my friends and family dont see any of it, they are think I am doing OK and can;t believe how strong I have been over my Dad. I read a story like Melodys and you always know that in relation to what could happen to me, what I am going through is not even that bad. A death of a parent is difficult but I have to be able to cope with that as what if something really traumatic did happen? I think maybe that the situation with my H has gone on a long time and that coupled with my Dad is double trouble. I allowed things to get on top of myself this weekend and was able to reach out here.

Break time smile


Thank you for your support, I am truly appreciative.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..I just struggle to understand if H is really that bad and abusive or just hurt and confused?

I need to take control of the situation as he isn't, perhaps when the funeral is over will be the time to sit down and POJA what is going to happen so we can both move forward. I cannot Plan B for a definete amount of time. I have my bio clock to consider.

Thank you all for listenging to me, it must be painful surely.

Hubby is both, I am sure of it.


God is with you harmony, this too shall pass, and you don't have to figure it all out today. You are a very real woman with a lot of things to figure out. Time and support.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..I do think I have men issues though, partly due to rejection by SD and father i think....

Its important to get outside of that and forgive them, for you as well as them. So bittereness does no effect you. Then when men pay attention to you, you can expect respect, even demand it.
OK going to work on a project, hope others are close to support you today.

Constant PITA checkin out for now lol. TTYL
Thanks Constant you have been there for me a lot, you are very kind, and your eyes/ears must be hurting smile TTYL
I would like to have a plan to move forward, but why do I need to work on myself so much, I thought I had come a long way?

Yes, you have come a long way! But you have a long way to go also. Two weeks ago you called up your old lover for emotional support! Two weeks ago you gave your husband a new key to your home! You are confused now and feel helpless. You do not know what you want. Or what you should want. In life. You can improve, get stronger, and you will be happier!

Surely I don't need that much work. I am not that bad. I would say that I am quite strong in relation to a lot of my friends ect...

Your friends are very troubled. And dysfunctional. Why do you hang out with people who are not functional and have no morals?

I have a friend who has been single for 6 years and comes across as desperate,

Weak, weak, weak! Out of control neediness. She needs help with her self esteem. Before she can marry or anything.

I have a friend who is 37 and has only had a 6 month relationship,

This is the troubled one who just found out she is 13 weeks pregnant???? She started having sex with the man WITHOUT PROTECTION a month after she met him? Or before that,,maybe right when she first met him!!!! They have only been dating 6 months and do not even know each other. Now she is creating a precious child with this man who she is not even married to? How smart is that? How out of control is she? She is very troubled and out of control selfish.

I have a friend who just went out and had a baby with a married man

This woman is your friend? She just ruined a marriage and her child's life (plus the man and his family and other children). She is the most selfish of the bunch of your friends you talk about here. She is nearly criminal in what she did. She is TOXIC to a man and his family and her unborn but precious ......child.....She might as well have KILLED somebody. And you consider her a "friend"???? I would quickly dump a friend like that one.

I have a friend who cannot be alone...

Another troubled woman who will grasp onto ANY man in order to keep herself from feeling alone or lonely. It is sad. This woman also needs counseling and healing of her self esteem since she has to be comfortable alone before she can have a good relationship. She is SETTLING for any man in order not to be alone. That is weak, shows no courage or strength.


So I think I am quite strong dealing with all of this and getting on well.

I beg to differ! You are comparing yourself with women with severe self esteem issues, the very selfish, and "near criminals" who are committing the crime of adultery and are busy breaking up families adn creating fatherless children. We could all compare ourselves to these types of people and come out shining.

It is not good to compare ourselves with other people but if you are going to do it try comparing yourself to a nice, kind, normal, functional, woman who has good self worth and morals and cares about others and would not ever ever ever even think about cheating, breaking up marriages, becoming pregnant with someone elses husband, grasping onto men as if they were life preservers, having unprotected sex with a new boyfriend and creating a precious child who may end up being fatherless!!!!!!

Do you have any normal and decent friends who are not busy ruining thier lives and the lives of other people around them????
Harmony, I get the drift now why your life is carreening ahead out of control like it is. The friends you hang around with reflect on yourself. And these friends have big problems!!!!

No wonder your husband seems almost "normal" and you cannot tell if he is abusive or not
No wonder you feel you are pretty much OK as you are
No wonder you do not always see problems in your marriage or in life.

If most of your friends are like this mottly bunch you told us about, then your role models are flawed. Therefore you will not be able to have proper judgement for your own life. I am saying this wrong and cannot explain it well but the type of friends you ACCEPT into your life reflect on your morals and your level of maturity. This is the way with all of us.

The friends you hang out with influence your own life more than you realize. I found this out when I was friends with an alcoholic for a while and bad things happened to me such as getting a DUII because i went to her house and we drank too much. I thought I should "accept her" as a person. But this was wrong. Accepting her as a friend into my life meant I was accepting her addiction and her negative lifestyle. I had to dump her as a friend. I could have died driving home from her house instead of getting pulled over by the authorities. And she could care less. She did not try and stop me from driving either but it was not her responsibility. Instead I discovered that it was my responsibility to pick my friends better. And to stay far away from people like her.

To illustrate this more, you would not hang out with criminals or heroin addicts would you? No. Because they are not like you and could be a detriment or a "negative influence" to you and your life.

I suggest you find out what your morals are, what your limits are, etc. Then find friends who believe the same as you do.

For example if you do not believe in a woman breaking up a marriage, do not hang around with a woman who is actively breaking up marriages!!!!

If you do not believe in creating a child with a brand new boyfriend then question why you are hanging around that particular friend who is having unprotected sex with her new boyfriend and asking for accolades for concieving an illigitiment child with him!

You can accept people..everyone... as they are.... but you do not need to accept them into your life as "friends".

The insecure friends you have do not seem as bad as these two but you must remember it is not good to have a steady diet of dysfunctional people coming into your life and remaining very close to you. It is not good for YOU to spend hours with these kinds of people.




Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
..The friends you hang out with influence your own life more than you realize. I found this out when I was friends with an alcoholic for a while and bad things happened to me such as getting a DUII because i went to her house and we drank too much. I thought I should "accept her" as a person. But this was wrong. Accepting her as a friend into my life meant I was accepting her addiction and her negative lifestyle. I had to dump her as a friend. I could have died driving home from her house instead of getting pulled over by the authorities. And she could care less. She did not try and stop me from driving either but it was not her responsibility. Instead I discovered that it was my responsibility to pick my friends better. And to stay far away from people like her.

Very astute bubbles. Kinda goes with the old adage, "If all your friends were gonna jump off a bridge, would you too?"

JL pointed out your Sis as a role model Harmony. Can you think of more women you admire? Organizations, Churchs, clubs or groups that have similar interests to yours? Surround yourself with healthy people, and glean from them. We all need role models and heros to look up to in real life. Sometimes people who are dangerous to us must be left behind, maybe we still love them, but we can't let them in to much, and influence us.

Your getting there
How was your break? You feelin better? Sure hope so.
Hiya constant

I did not sleep well last night but it is good to be back at work taking the focus off Dad/ Husband.

I am suppose to be meeting H tonight but do not think it is a good idea. I asked him to meet with me before the funeral and now do not think this is a good idea. I don't feel as strong when I met him last week.

I will probably just tell him that I am feeling too tired to meet up and make his own way to the funeral, or I could just be honest and let him know that him dipping in and out is not helping and unless he wants to recommit to the M he should leave me alone.

Thanks for your support.
@Harmony -

Are you in Plan A or Plan B?

Remember no decisions while you are going through this traumatic event. Tell him the truth. You don't feel like meeting with him right at this moment. You are allowed to change your mind.

Once again, are you in Plan A or Plan B?
I agree Harmony, always be honest about whatever you are feeling. It's okay it's a difficult situation..........making decisions is a tough thing to do, all we have is our gut to listen to............it has never steered me wrong................
jessi
I agree also Harmony. You don't have to have a reason but the fact that you two are in such an unstable place is as good as a reason not to meet him.

This is not a time where you need anymore drama, and he isn't to stable himself yet. How could you lean on him? Can he be strong for you?

The only exeption is if you had your brother, sister, or another personal friend there too, to discuss attending the funeral together. The personal relationship between your H and you has to be put on the back burner, and the rest of the family is the priority. You allready know that I know.

If being around H right now is to much emotionally, then don't chance more suffering for either of you.

Glad your back to work and feeling better.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..I will probably just tell him that I am feeling too tired to meet up and make his own way to the funeral, or I could just be honest and let him know that him dipping in and out is not helping and unless he wants to recommit to the M he should leave me alone...

When you say, "dipping in and out", I wonder what that means to you. He isn't really rejoining the marriage when he sees you, so hes not really "in" so to speak. I imagine there is a uncomfortable tension between you when your together right? Or does he get romantic and mushy with you whenever he sees you, or try to sleep with you?

I am imagining some behavior of respect and care towards each other in the circumstance of your fathers passing. If he could act in a sensitive way towards you about that, and you could both leave the marriage and personal issues behind when you were together, I think you could support each other.

But Harmony, if you both can't be around each other without the pain and confusion of your marriage taking over your minds, maybe staying away from each other is the best thing.

After the funeral is over, and you don't have such a raw place to come from in your emotions, maybe you should go into plan B dark again with H. The yo-yo and rollercoaster of hopes and dreams and emotions and confusion has got to stop for awhile untill you get some perspective on yourself.

The same goes for WH, and you both would benifet from some peace and solitude, if you will leave each other alone. Do you realize this is dragging out the problem? Niether of you has really been alone and stable enough without distractions to contemplate life without each other. Somehow one or both of you demands to see each other, and get a relationship fix for the moment, and then go back to whatever thoughts and activities that are full of confusion and desparation. You want him to change now, or hit the road, and he sees other women?

Please stop and see this, you won't really cut him loose to live his own bullcrap life with the OW he keeps, and let him come back so he can see you and find more bullcrap reasons he can do that.

He is still selfish and wallowing in self-pity. Not leaving you alone either or trying to work on the marriage with any tools that we ALL must use. Dr H didn't invent love, or marriage, but he knows it better than most and how it works. Take advantage of his fine teaching and make a plan soon.


I guess what I was asking, when you say dipping in and out, was his just seeing you occasionally qualify as being "in" the marraige for you?

I didn't think it did, and I hope he doesn't get that message, that just being with you is all that you need. That kind of message is what caused the problems before right? He got away with IB and didn't care about your dreams of children and romance?

Just checking Harmony, did you understand what I meant? I am trying to help you define your boundaries in this relationship and reminding you of the ones you need to protect. Just showing up at night and sleeping in the same bed does not alone a marriage make. Stop letting him get his "my poor marriage" fix and let him go into withdrawl from you. There he, and you, will learn to respect each other, and expect better of yourselves too.

I hope in time you will both demand it from each other, as you trust each of you has the others back, because you stand for the same thing, a loving marraige.

Hold yourself up Harmony, this is a tough time I know, but you will get thru it I promise, we all see it you know. We have enough respect for you to drum in the truth as we see it. No getting off the hook here.

Peace to you.
Hello Constant

Thanks for your posts.

I am feeling much calmer, I had a really difficult weekend and I have learnt that when I am upset about something, it can sometimes transfer to anger directed at someone else and I think I felt very angry with H over the weekend, due to my father.

Anyway, I am feeling x100 times better.

H called last night to see how I was doing and if I was ok. He seems genuinly concerned and is adamant about being at the funeral. I have to say based on his past performance, I am quite surprised, it must be quite daunting for him facing all my family at once in our current situation. Maybe he is actually growing up himself? He seems to be definetly defogging. Apparantly we were suppose to be meeting Tuesday night not Monday. Unpromted, he sent someone round at the weekend to send them round to sort out the garden for me. I asked him how his weekend was, he answered it was OK, a bit flat.

I am communicating with him so much better, like I don't have anything to lose, not from a place of fear like before. I am not scared of the relationship ending as I know I will be OK. I survived 6 weeks not contacting him, and only broke it due to my fathers death. It feels good. Also, he actually LISTENS and takes it onboard. I also communicate with him in a 'man appropriate way', I guess you know what I mean by that? You know not like I was before a bull in a china shop, I speak calmly, clearly, without anger, taking his view onboard and without fear.

I told him that the estate agent came round to get the house price reduced. He was quite dismissive when I told him that, as reducing the house price would mean we are both serious about splitting up(it is on at a silly non sellable price at the moment), I said to H you can't hide from the situation H, we both have to face it and deal with it. I told him that I was not happy with leaving the house sat on the market doing anything and we both need to agree a plan. He said OK I understand but please Harmony would you please listen to me for a change? (This is a big thing for him, me listening to him as when I had the affair and told him I was leaving, he said to me don't leave Harmony, just stay at home and dont do anything rash, which I ignored). H said now is not the time for these kind of discussions, lets get Christmas out the way and then in the NY we can sit down and both talk without emotions running so high about your father. I agreed that this seems sensible. Now was not the time to have discussions. Then he added what I will do is call the estate agents tomorrow and have it taken off the market, does that sound OK? I agreed.

I came off the call feeling quite happy and peaceful. I will go see him tonight and enjoy the evening together, no relationship talk, just some good food and good company. Then he can accompany me to the funeral, after that I will get on enjoy my Christmas and NY to the max, spending time with friends and family and then we can sit down in the NY and have a proper talk, where I can say all the things JL suggested.

I can tell him how I truly feel, that I love him, that the pain and suffering that he has put me through and he has shown no remorse, that I need someone who will stand by my side and support and care for me. Then I can make my decision.


Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hiya constant


I will probably just tell him that I am feeling too tired to meet up and make his own way to the funeral, or I could just be honest and let him know that him dipping in and out is not helping and unless he wants to recommit to the M he should leave me alone.

You can not force "return thinking" onto a WW.
He will NOT in WW fog, give you the words, actions and remorse you are looking for.

If in the future, he decides to rejoin you as a quality spouse the change has to come from within him.

{{Harmony}}

I really feel for you. I hope you have a reflectful/peaceful week of remembering how great your father really was.
Harmony,
I think the conversation with your husband was a good one, he is right no decision of that magnitude should be made while you are going through the loss of your father.........
Give yourself a little time to decompress from all the emotional turmoil you are feeling now...........
The time right now is for family support and remembering a great man in your life....
After that just have some fun with family and friends........Bring in the New Year with a new look on life, Harmony's peaceful life with honesty and bravery.........
Hell I will even toast that myself on New Year's Eve for you from this side of the pond..............
Take care for now..............jessi
So, Harmony...

Have you given any thought to the impossible task you have set before WH?

You said if he wasn't there for you, you may resent him forever... then you say you are trying to not allow him to be there...

So is your plan resentment?

Hello MB Friends,

Back with an update.

I went out with H on Tuesday night, we had dinner, then went for a drink. He ended up coming back and staying the night. We had SF it was VERY passionate, it felt more passionate that we have ever had. During the evening we were both relaxed, and chatted throughout the evening. I needed that intimacy from him.

The funeral was yesterday and a very tough day. I coped well, and supported my 2 olders sisters. My friends and family commented to my H how strong I had been and even he said I had been amazing. My theory was that I needed to be able to deal with this as if something truly tragic happens in life (loss of a child or spouse) that I needed at least to be able to deal with this to a point. It was tough and almost surreal, like I was having a bad dream. I definetly still hear my father and feel a part of him within me. I would like to thank everyone here at MB, for supporting me through this growth process of learning to cope and not crumble. I put together the speech from me, my 2 sisters and 1 bro, and it was really good. I would like to post it here as some of the messages I got from my Dad were the same as I got from this place, would that be disrespectful?

H accompanied me to the funeral, and was very supportive. I believe he did it because he really does care, I hope I am not wrong. On the way back home I suggested stopping for a drink, which he agreed to. When he took me back home and fixed a few things round the house, he gave me a kiss on the lips and left. I sent him a text message today, thanking him for his support and he responded by saying it was a pleasure and that I had been amazing with a couple of kisses on his texts.

Sooooooooooo......

I could do with some of the vets insight into what may be going on. I have summarised below some of the points of 'interest' that we discussed over the last few days.

** We have got on well this week no LB's but no talk of reconciliation.
** H talked about activites that he had taken up such as running and snowboarding. I didn't understand this , as I had always tried to get him involved in these activities and he never showed as much interest. Can anyone explain why he is doing that?
** H mentioned about really liking a certain town and mentioning that he would like to live there, I had always talked to him in the rship about living in this town and he never showed an interest then.
**H talked about wanting to buy and renovate a ski chalet in the alps, AGAIN, this was one of my dreams!!
** H keeps telling me about things he is doing with family and friends e.g no other women.
** He constantly mentioned that he was living at mom and dads and that it really was not great and they bickered all the time.
** H really opened upto me last night after the funeral, and I saw a real vulnerable side to him. I was telling H about my college course and how I was enjoying it, and he mentioned that he would like to do something similiar. He then said that he was always a failure, never passed his exams, failed his art course, failed his car test numerous times. H said that he didn't want my sympathy but that he generally failed at things. I felt quite upset about this and stressed to him that he was not a failure and this all happened when he was a lot younger and maybe he did not have the motivation back then to succeed at various exams. Then pointed out all of his achievements.
** He bought up past 'issues' in the r'ship such as his mother. For example, how his mother and her other DIL had a big fall out and whether I could now see his mothers point of view. I said that I think the other DIL was being confrontational over something minor but due the way his mother tended to be with her that the DIL was trying to make a point. He actually agreed with me.

I do have mixed feelings myself over reconciling with him. I just can't help it. I love him so, but it does concern me that he has shown no remorse over his affairs, is always bringing up his mother (my r'ship with her is obviously a real LB for him). I also notice more how I made all the attempts in the r'ship before the affair 'to fill in all the gaps' for example, holiday plans, SF, conversation, suggestion for recreation ideas...Maybe I need to put this behind me for now, any thoughts?

So now I will leave him be and see if he initiates contact, he knows how I feel. I really do think that there is some outside strong influnece over him reconciling with me, and my gut instinct is its his mother and brother.

In terms of my own personal progress, I miss him very much, and am dreading Christmas without him. I feel tired of making the effort to reconcile with him, and have shown him this week a strong, confident and happy side. I have just enjoyed his company.

Any insight on Hubbie and how I proceed would be welcome.
You know you are not doing anything MB, right?

He has not apologised, not repented for the A's.

Holidays are really rough, it is hard to be alone.
You need an STD test.

Why are you talking to him if he has not met ANY of your conditions?
Hiya Barbie

I guess sometimes I get confused sometimes, as I was the one who created this mess. I suppose I wanted H to see that he could enjoy my company without any r'ship talk. I suppose I am confused as to what is the best strategy to follw and get confused about the different lines of advice. Some people say I should sit down and talk with him, then others say Plan B.

My main objective is for H to be remorseful for the way he has treated me, for his 4 affairs, otherwise it is never going to work us getting back together on the premise on that it was only me who has messed up.

Boy how I wish I could be strong and say, I love you H, but unless you can show remorse for your actions and commit strongly to the M, then NC. I guess I feel hindered by my A to instigate this.

OK, I need to sort out a plan for how I proceed. Please help.


I am sorry but:

This is not anywhere near reconcilliation. He is blocked from moving back in and having a real marriage because he is with another woman.
how do you know he is with another woman? I feel sick.
How do you know he is not with another woman? Have you had him followed by a PI yet? Have you made an appointment for a professional hook him up to a polygraph?

You have seen him with several women in the last few months. Something is stopping him from coming back remorseful. Could easily be another woman or he wants to continue dating. Who knows...you wont even ask him about it, get him followed to see if he is lying or get a (cant remember the name where they hook him up to wires and ask him questions to get at the truth) You know he had at least 4 affairs right? I could be wrong. You have been married for three years and he had 4-6 affairs...or something.


You really have not taken proper steps to KNOW. Did you use condoms in case he has a disease and so you wont get pregnant????
If it were me, I would not try and guess who or what is blocking him from returning to the marriage. I would find out what is REALLY going on!!!! By having him followed and asking him to take a polygraph.
Please do not be desperate enough to be with "any" man that you will deny there is a problem or that he could be cheating. Dont be like your friends. FIND OUT THE TRUTH!
Do you know what I have no reason to believe him. He has cheated on me for the past 8 months, so why would he stop now? You are so right.
If you want to know for sure, hire a PI. Get proof. If you are unsure. It is worth it. That way you will know if you should or should not open up your heart to him again right now.
I can't be bothered to spend any more money on the guy. I have spent about 600 pound on him already and put all my efforts into him. As far as I am concerned he is seeing other women, unless he is able to prove to me otherwise.

He can get on with it and I can get the divorce filed.

I have given him the benefit of the doubt enough.
Dont beat yourself up for falling back in with him either. I dated a guy for over 10 years who I kept going back to again and again. I finally broke up with him when I decided I deserved better and wanted a true love in my life not the dependent cheating boyfriend he was.

I had the ability to break up and get back together again and again. ONLY because I did not want children and I was not married to him.

YOU are in a different situation.

1. You want a family someday.
2. You are married and cannot allow cheating at all.

So, therefore YOU have to take strong action here sooner rather than later. So you can protect your childbearing years and still have TIME to pick a good father for the kids you might have.
600 LBS is that about 900 american dollars?

When did you spend this money on him? Recently?
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
600 LBS is that about 900 american dollars?

When did you spend this money on him? Recently?


Yes Bubbles, I spent about that much on counselling sessions with Steve Harley.

I just wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, I thought clean slate put the past behind me. ALLOW him to be there during the death of my father as he was so insistent. I told him at the time, I only want you to be there if there is no other woman, as I can't handle that. He insisted there was no one else. THEN I have a huge dose of reality. What reason do I have to believe him? He has shown no remorse.
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/17/10 09:18 PM
Hi Harmony. I don't think I've written on your thread before aside from saying that I'm sorry for the loss of your dad. I'm sure it's been quite a roller coaster of emotions for you lately.

I noticed something CP said to you recently:

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
I imagine there is a uncomfortable tension between you when your together right? Or does he get romantic and mushy with you whenever he sees you, or try to sleep with you?

This is probably a perfect time to answer that and write down what it takes for him to "lure" you in. Putting it in writing - your own handwriting - would be a smart exercise for you to identify your vulnerabilities.

I understand, you spent the money for the betterment of the marriage. Yet you still do not have remorse from him or know that he is not still dating other women. That would piss me off.

I do not know which I would spend more money on:

1. A private investigator
2. A polygraph for him
3. A divorce attorney

Possibly you could have a friend follow him and report back to you, it would be a "cheap and dirty" PI if you did not want to spend any money. Once my husband helped his friend like that, we knew his friend's wife was e-mailing her OM and they were going to meet at a certain parking lot one morning. We were there and took pictures. It was quite exciting. Then we gave those to her husband. After about 3 more affairs, one across the country affair where she drove to be with the OM, she has finally quit having affairs...for the moment.
My view is that I don't want to know what he is upto, as far as I am concerned it is upto HIM to prove to me that he is not seeing anyone and show me all the right moves, before I let him back in the house.

Then he will need to put EP's in place, with me doing the occasional snooping.

I am not going to chase around after him, whilst we are separated, let him get on with it, whilst I stay in Dark Plan B.

Rant over. Thing is Bubbles I got riled when you said about OW, and it hit a nerve and got me all flustered and thats my instincts kicking in.
I know I always rile people up, it is my nature.

You said: "My view is that I don't want to know what he is upto, as far as I am concerned it is upto HIM to prove to me that he is not seeing anyone and show me all the right moves, before I let him back in the house. "

I ask you these questions:

1. What are the right moves?
2. What if he makes the right moves but is still cheating?
3. Have you told him what you want him to do?
4. Does he want to be with you/live with you again?
5. How long will you wait for him to come up with the right moves?

Maybe this is what a Dark Plan B is all about, not chasing them etc. As long as he knows this. What if he does not want to move back in with you and instead chooses to be free? Will you wait for 6 months or so or what time period?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/17/10 09:47 PM
Are you going to have a REAL DARK Plan B this time? Make sure or he will never think you are serious.
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
I know I always rile people up, it is my nature.

You said: "My view is that I don't want to know what he is upto, as far as I am concerned it is upto HIM to prove to me that he is not seeing anyone and show me all the right moves, before I let him back in the house. "

I ask you these questions:

1. What are the right moves?

A complete change of heart, contacting Steve Harley to initiate counselling, no contact letters to OW, coming off facebook.

2. What if he makes the right moves but is still cheating?

Divorce.

3. Have you told him what you want him to do?

No.

4. Does he want to be with you/live with you again?

No he has mentioned nothing about doing this.

5. How long will you wait for him to come up with the right mov.es?

Until the New Year., then I weill let him know my intention is tio file for the divorce.


Maybe this is what a Dark Plan B is all about, not chasing them etc. As long as he knows this. What if he does not want to move back in with you and instead chooses to be free? Will you wait for 6 months or so or what time period?

I am not going to wait for 6 months. I think he has had enough of my time. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I can picture a plan B so deep and dark.... like a dark black night....that the silence is deafening to him. The e-mail silence, the doorbell silence, the letter silence and the phonecall silence and texting silence. Change the locks again (you can learn to do this yourself) and determine the length of time you will be in Plan B.
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/17/10 10:04 PM
And really, with the way you described your passionate night earlier this week, what a great way to way to end Plan A and go into Plan B.

This is where I get confused, would she send H another Plan B letter?

(you've sent one before, right Harmony?)
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
I can picture a plan B so deep and dark.... like a dark black night....that the silence is deafening to him. The e-mail silence, the doorbell silence, the letter silence and the phonecall silence and texting silence. Change the locks again (you can learn to do this yourself) and determine the length of time you will be in Plan B.


Yes I can do this I did it for 6 weeks before. Oh by the way, I managed to get the back door key from him so he doesn't have this anymore smile

I am annoyed as this must be confusing for him, all of a sudden I have gone to bed with him, then I have sent him a nice text today, then I go Dark on him.

Questions

Do I need to send him a no contact letter/text?

How long should I do Plan B at a mimimum to have the desired effect? He seemed to crack a little last time after 4 weeks and in particular went crazy when I ignored his birthday.

Thanks guys, I have been operating out of fear, fear that I could lose him and wanting to believe what he tells me.

The guy will think I am loopy, because I threw him out went Dark Plan B, then let him back in again, and now going Dark Plan B again!
Originally Posted by Delta_
And really, with the way you described your passionate night earlier this week, what a great way to way to end Plan A and go into Plan B.

This is where I get confused, would she send H another Plan B letter?

(you've sent one before, right Harmony?)


Good point Delta. The last Plan B letter, he left here at the house, so not sure how I get one to him this time.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/17/10 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
The guy will think I am loopy, because I threw him out went Dark Plan B, then let him back in again, and now going Dark Plan B again!

Which is why there shouldn't be any "slips" in plan B. But, you can't turn back time. All you CAN do is show him that you mean it, THIS TIME.

I would re-send the Plan B letter. I may even preface it with a "thanx for being there for me for my dad's funeral" and then the rest of your letter.

Get real dark and not just where he doesn't see you, but one where you aren't looking for him either. YOU CAN DO THIS.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/17/10 10:17 PM
You could ask him to meet you somewhere and give it to him. Or you could go to his parent's house and knock on the door. You could even stick it under his wiper blade of his car. There ARE ways. laugh
Originally Posted by Scotland
You could ask him to meet you somewhere and give it to him. Or you could go to his parent's house and knock on the door. You could even stick it under his wiper blade of his car. There ARE ways. laugh


Yes those are some good suggestions, thanks Scotland. Ofcourse there are ways, I will put something together and post. I have no proof he is seeing anyone, but he has made no real attempt at reconciliation.

I really like Plan B as it gives me back the power, I only broke it under extreme circumstances (my dear dad).
Its understandable in your grief that emotions would run high and certain boundaries would come down with your H.

I wonder if you realize every time you sleep with him you re-enforce that he is alright and does not need to seek help? In his life, and certainly where his realationship with you is concerned. He doesn't respect you if he will sleep with you and not be commited to the marriage and work on it somehow.

Maybe you are both convinced MB is not for you, and that there is another way, I don't know, but you are talking about plan B again, so maybe another stab at it is in order.

Lets see if this time it is more than a way to control him while YOU fence sit, instead of fully commiting to the wisdom of the plan, or if you will trust what so many people here are telling you about the back and forth you are doing.

Ive seen it before, and others too, and it is likely you will blame the MB program, without really doing it first. You can't use bits and pieces that fit in your plan, you must commit to it fully.

I say this with the utmost respect for you and the time you are going thru, and the belief you can understand a half-azzed marrige is what you ran away from, and a half-azzed MB will not work either.

Time to commit to something, your best thinking got you here, time to accept help from grown up s that have lived it and have recovered.

God Bless Harmony
Please post the new plan B letter and let others help you tailor it.

Looking forward to it
Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/18/10 02:41 PM
Hi Harmony!

Just finished reading your post. You're holding up very well, good for you!

Please post your Plan B letter, as I have NO idea how to even start one. I am planning a Plan B Early next month and I don't have a clue what I should say in it.

It would be very helpful to see one, even in draft form.

Thanks Harmony, take care of yourself.
I really feel like I am done with this marriage. I believe there is too much damage for this to be repaired.

My H called me today as I sent him a text asking for my �5000 that I lent him. H then asked if I was being funny with him. I then confronted him and asked him what it was he wanted from me? I said that he clearly does not seem to want the marriage, so why can he not leave me be? He then bought up some silly story how he spoke to my cousin and that she had said to him that my family thought that he should leave me alone to move on. He then started to accuse me of bad mouthing him and only listening to what my family say. I am sure he just makes this stuff up just to distract from his own behaviour. I said to him that he has shown no remorse for his behaviour and affairs. He said that they had nothing to do with anything and that they never would have happened if it was for me. He then told me that he was going to go away for awhile to 'get his head straight'. I told him that if he wanted to go away this is what he should do, and if he went away that I was going to get on with my life for good. He then said he was only going to go away for a week!! I told him that he needed to leave me be, give me a cheque for my money and to not contact me unless he shows serious remorse for his behaviour and can show any serious commitment to the marriage.

He then freaked out saying he was only intending to go away for a week to have some on his own. I told him I he has had most of this year on his own and I have waited long enough. My intention was to move on and leVe me alone. He said fine.

I believe my H is one truly sick individual. I believe this is one long game of punishment and can find not one good reason to be married to him. I am appalled and don't even Wang to think that he has used me fir his own ego for the past week.
Sorry for the poor spelling I am on my phone. Do you know what? It even annoys me that I am here wasting energy talking about HIM. I think one day I will kick myself for wasting so much time on this weasel.

All he is doing is getting on with his life, doing what the frog he wants, hoping to keep me in line at the house.

Big I wish I had the guts to call the solicitors first thing Monday and get the divorce filed. How do you divorce someone you 'love'?

What the he'll is he doing? I believe I have given my power away to him. He knows how much I love him. He is so sick he is using me.

Sorry for the rant, but my family and friends quite rightly so will not listen to me anymore.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Sorry for the poor spelling I am on my phone. Do you know what? It even annoys me that I am here wasting energy talking about HIM. I think one day I will kick myself for wasting so much time on this weasel.

All he is doing is getting on with his life, doing what the frog he wants, hoping to keep me in line at the house.

Big I wish I had the guts to call the solicitors first thing Monday and get the divorce filed. How do you divorce someone you 'love'?

What the he'll is he doing? I believe I have given my power away to him. He knows how much I love him. He is so sick he is using me.

Sorry for the rant, but my family and friends quite rightly so will not listen to me anymore.
Its OK Harmony, time for some plan B action and counsel again from SH. Maybe a personal counsellor too.

Till you figure out these emotions that are triggering you anyway. Thats my advice from this perspective.

It will become visable with a little time if your wanting him to go has more to do with arguments, or a real knowledge that he does,t want to work on the marrige. I don't think he knows how.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I really feel like I am done with this marriage. I believe there is too much damage for this to be repaired.

My H called me today as I sent him a text asking for my �5000 that I lent him. We then proceeded to unleash a poo storm of LBs all over each other.

Hello, angry taker! How was peeking out of Plan B? Ms taker, why can't you quiet down a while, and let Harmony be solid in her plans, rather than spinning her around and pushing her into walls?

She has her goals, she has her plan, but you, Ms Taker, keep fudging her up.
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
..She has her goals, she has her plan, but you, Ms Taker, keep fudging her up.

Amen to that!

Go back into Plan B, and get some perspective from a distance Harmony.

Good call HHH, thats the way it is too isn't it? Its also a perfect MB explanation of what is happening.

Goin to make eggnog for daughters xmas party, all youse guys, and for you in texas, Y'all, well everybody rumba!
Ok I have calmed down. Angry taker at play. Back in Plan B.

I just can't see anything worth fighting for. I am all out of fighting for this M.
Thanks guys, I just can't seem to get any of this right can I?
I can't cope with anymore and can't go into next year in the same situation. Everytime I speak to him he says his affairs are justified.

Am I getting something wrong here? Was it ok for him to do this?
I don't believe he wants this marriage, so why won't he leave me alone. Everyfew few days in Plan B HD tried to break it, when I let him in, then he disappears off again.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I don't believe he wants this marriage, so why won't he leave me alone. Everyfew few days in Plan B HD tried to break it, when I let him in, then he disappears off again.

Reread that.

When he tries, you break. He runs off. He tries again, you break, he runs off.

Seeing the pattern?

It's not Plan B. I can't event think of a witty remark... Plan RD? (Revolving Door)

Solid, dark, GTFO plan B.

Look at what this wishy-washy plan B is doing to you! All the while, it enables him to keep acting like a walking turd.

For sure, thanks HHH.

I think I broke Plan B under extreme circumstances.

Plan B was my sanctuary before and I need to go back.

Ok tomorrow is a new day and Plan B is the way forward.

I am fully prepared for the Plan B. Although he has still not picked up the rest of his stuff and all of his mail still comes to the house. He uses his mail as an exscuse to come by.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
For sure, thanks HHH.

I think I broke Plan B under extreme circumstances.

Of course you did. And I think considering you said him not supporting you at that time would have added further resentment to your situation, I don't think it was all wrong.

However, you should have planned go go from using that support, right back into a pitch-black Plan B.

Every time you peek out, you are allowing further large LB$ withdrawals.

Don't do that to yourself, quit sabotaging your goal!


Homework; do a google search for "extinction burst."

Short portion from wikipedia:

Quote
While extinction, when implemented consistently over time, results in the eventual decrease of the undesired behavior, in the near-term the subject might exhibit what is called an extinction burst. An extinction burst will often occur when the extinction procedure has just begun. This consists of a sudden and temporary increase in the response's frequency, followed by the eventual decline and extinction of the behavior targeted for elimination.

Take, as an example, a pigeon that has been reinforced to peck an electronic button. During its training history, every time the pigeon pecked the button, it will have received a small amount of bird seed as a reinforcer. So, whenever the bird is hungry, it will peck the button to receive food. However, if the button were to be turned off, the hungry pigeon will first try pecking the button just as it has in the past. When no food is forthcoming, the bird will likely try again... and again, and again. After a period of frantic activity, in which their pecking behavior yields no result, the pigeon's pecking will decrease in frequency.

The evolutionary advantage of this extinction burst is clear. In a natural environment, an animal that persists in a learned behavior, despite not resulting in immediate reinforcement, might still have a chance of producing reinforcing consequences if they try again. This animal would be at an advantage over another animal that gives up too easily.

Despite the name, however, not every explosive reaction to adverse stimuli subsides to extinction. Indeed a small minority of individuals persist in their reaction indefinitely.

I get you HHH. Thanks for the explanation. H hated Plan B and his behaviour started to escalate. I could have seen it having some success if I had left it another couple of weeks. He was starting to get very frantic and erratic. Which is how 'extinction burst' is explained.

Thank god for this place to keep me in check.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I get you HHH. Thanks for the explanation. H hated Plan B and his behaviour started to escalate. I could have seen it having some success if I had left it another couple of weeks. He was starting to get very frantic and erratic. Which is how 'extinction burst' is explained.

Thank god for this place to keep me in check.

It's not just him going through extinction bursts, Harmony... you keep doing it, too. Extinction burst is what is causing you to keep popping out of Plan B, even though it really isn't in your best interest.

You really have to stop running such a crappy Plan B, gal.

It doesn't help when you are rewarded with good behavior from WH when you peek out, that just feeds your need to break it.

Conversely, when his LB$ behavior continues, it makes you pop right back in.

What happens is those little deposits aren't outweighing the withdrawals. If you keep it up, rather than restoring your M, you are going to grow to hate him, and it's beginning to show.

If he keeps pushing, it's showing that whatever sort of Plan A you put forth before you moved to Plan B had some results. He's chasing the reward he feels from being with you.

Your goal is to shape the behavior that allows him that reward, and that behavior is NC for life with the OW(s), as well as your other conditions for reconciliation.

When you allow him to pull you out of Plan B, and those interactions lead to these arguments (huge withdrawals in both directions) you are reducing that behavior - in his wayward mind, it's "well, if all she is going to do is yell at me, why try?" This is in addition to the impact it has on you.

Continually breaking Plan B is not in the interest of your goals!

twoxfour
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I get you HHH. Thanks for the explanation. H hated Plan B and his behaviour started to escalate. I could have seen it having some success if I had left it another couple of weeks. He was starting to get very frantic and erratic. Which is how 'extinction burst' is explained.

Thank god for this place to keep me in check.

I didn't look up 'extinction burst' , but if you are talking about in the beginning, with "frantic and erratic", when he almost seemed violent and threatening, WH has come a long way since then I believe. I see some improvement in him, even if you don't yet.

HHH is absolutly right Harmony, and again it is understood and probably very healthy in the long run that plan B was broke when your Dad was passing, but now its back to the plan, and examining everything, one peice at a time.

In order for y6ourself to have peace that this marrige is over, you must have peace with yourself when you make your decisions, and not just when you are hurt and angry. Granted staying hurt and angry may seem wise for self protection, but it isn't nessesary in a good plan B where you are isolated from the pain.
Make a plan of protection from a place of protection and follow it. If that plan includes a time period where WH can make a decsion then good, you will have given him time alone to see what it is like without you, and decide.

Plan B is not just a way to get him to want you, its a way for you to not need him to also. Its a way to stop the misguided drama and triggers effecting both of you, and learn what you are both doing wrong. Its a chance to save the marriage without doing each other more damage. To stop the already damaging dynamic that is causing the pain and problems, and work on what is nessesary for healing and moving forward.

If neither of you can see that, then you are doomed to have the same problems in the next relationship, just manifested in a different way. If you are really cursed, you will try to fix the next one based on what had to be fixed in this one.

Do a plan B, and open your mind beyond what he is doing wrong, and just work on what you might be doing, for a while anyway. Its the least you can do for marriages sake, and you will not regret doing it, but you will not giving it a chance.
At the moment I feel so stupid. He is moving on building a life without me and has been doing so. Because of the situation with my Dad and what's been happening I have put my life on hold. Vnow I feel as though I have nothing going on and have a life with a blank sheet of paper and nothing left in it.

I don't know where to start I feel as though all the hard work I have done is broken.

He has just used me once again and now I have to go through the holiday season a mess.

Here I am in this big house all alone.

Where do I start? 35 and single with nothing. I feel that all H is doing is using me and will dump me as soon as someone else comes along. I need to climb out of this pit of despair.

I use to be so happy and full of life and what am I now?

I don't think u should go to plan b I think u should just file a D, ur wh does not thi k ur seriouse you'll go to plan b for another month then brreak it once again. Why don't u get this over with and divorce him and maybe if he wants to reconcile he can date u first. But this thread is making me puke because hoe many times u broke plan b.

Start this year fresh I mean REAL FRESH smile
I would take the day tomorrow and decide exactly what you want.

Try not to be foolish and take back a cheater only to see him leave again and cheat again.

Try not to be like your girlfriend who got herself instantly pregnant without any decent marriage/father available to support the baby.

Try not to keep calling him or responding to him, it has become a game now, not a real marriage.

Try not to be afraid of the unknown.

Try not to put up with a man who you cannot count on

Maybe go toward divorce. That other poster reminded me that you can always date each other after the divorce is over. If you want to put up with his crap again, you could date him then.

A relationship of any kind as short as yours should not be littered with pain, cheating, lying and not loving each other. This should not be this way. You should not have to teach him how to love a woman. You should not have to battle back to get him back. You should not have this pain, struggle, and in limbo feeling.

Do you think he will change into the man you want him to be? Get a divorce and find out. Right now he is not marriage material but he is "divorce material"> Later, many years from now he may or may not turn into "marriage material".

He is not good marriage material now, as he is now.
I believe divorce is my only option. I could understand 1 revenge affair but 4 plus the verbal, emotional and physical abuse?

I can forgive him, but I do not want to put my happiness in the hands of this man any longer. His main objective has been to punish me and seek revenge for my affair, and I have suffered terribly. Suffered watching the man I love play sick games with me for nearly 2 years. I have been reduced to an anxious confused wreck. I can not believe anyone is capable of doing this to someone.

I am back in the luxury of a dark plan B, which is no chore. My intention is to get through Christmas and file for divorce in the new year.

Keep us posted

Two years of physical abuse is what I am hearing from your last post. At least thats the impression.

Its hard to know what is really going on. But I wish well for you and your H, and that you can have the best darn divorce that ever was, being able to both show how reasonable it is, and fair to all concerned.

It does seem a waste of time here doesn't it?

Thank God there are no children no?


Good luck, God bless Harmony and take some time off from Men ok?

santa001 and a happynewyr
I will Constant.

I don't even know how to start to rebuild my life, I know it won't be overnight.

I feel totally broken.

Like JL always say, the best revenge is to make my life successful.
Posted By: bokonist Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/19/10 02:13 PM
I would much rather someone involved in this conversation have pointed this out, but inasmuch as that is not going to happen and it is getting late, I feel I must.

Imagine an alcoholic announcing to his AA group that he fell off the wagon but that it Is really not so bad, because after all, he stuck to just Scotch. That is what I hear when you imply your A was not as bad because it was one relationship rather than three or four.

Also the time thing. It also doesn�t matter, at least once past an isolated ONS. If your A was 3 months you still had 90 days, 90 sunrises, where you woke up and said,�Yes, I�ll continue this�. What difference does another 100 days make, or another 300?

Betrayal is Betrayal. And you have been on the receiving end of nothing worse than �response in kind� for what you dealt. And so this is my point, my big point: You should not require remorse from him for his RAs. His ceasing and desisting should be enough.

People just don�t tend to apologize for retaliations in kind. They just don�t. You won�t get it. And if you really require it, you might as well D now. The most you�ll get is that it was an �unfortunate episode�.

People apologize for �escalations�, for starting an argument, or for throwing a punch in response to something said in an argument, or (here) to having an A because they were unhappy in their relationship. If you need remorse from him, you might sooner get it for the shabby way you were treated pre-A and here and there. And that might be more useful to you anyway than getting remorse for his RAs.

Good luck.
Already feel better being back in Plan B.

I feel protected. I know I really need to move on with my life and put him to the back of my mind as I start my new life without him.

I have put too much responsibility on him making me happy.
Thanks for your post about RA's bokonist. I get that.

I really feel as though I have tried everything I can to fight for my M. I do love him dearly, but I cannot fight for the M on my own any longer.

Part of me thinks, that I could continue to 'try' and break the walls. We did seem to make some good progress last week, he kissed me on the lips when he left Thursday, I could have tried to 'date' him. I think he wants me to beg for him back, and then he will let me in. Maybe I have got this all wrong and that is what I should be doing?

Anyway I am in PLan B now. I am off out for some Christmas Carol singing. I have left the front door locked he will go mad if he ever comes round and that is locked.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I have put too much responsibility on him making me happy.

And, the flip side is also true.

When we make our spouse responsible for making us happy, our spouse is thereby also responsible when we are unhappy.

This mindset (thinking error) gives us the "right" to freeload our happiness/unhappiness. It's never our fault !
doh2

This is why many of us remain married in a bad situation.
We like having someone else be responsible for the outcome.

"It's not my fault"
santa001



Hiya pepper

I am glad to have you back.

Please help give me some guidance to go forward.
Dear Harmony,

Quote
I really feel as though I have tried everything I can to fight for my M. I do love him dearly, but I cannot fight for the M on my own any longer.

Unfortunately, you haven't tried real Plan B. And that is perhaps why you feel like you have no power left for fighting. You've let him in and then kicked him out several times, making your own life miserable and you are understandably exhausted. This, too, takes time and energy... With such a Plan B like you've had since October you have given him all he needs - you and OW at the same time. And left yourself empty-handed and in LIMBO. This is no Plan B. Limbo cannot be controlled by you. This is exactly you have to protect yourself against.

I understand that you are feeling down because your dad passed away, but you have to stop letting your H in so he can make you unhappy over and over again.

Whatever you decide, mean it.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hiya pepper

I am glad to have you back.

Please help give me some guidance to go forward.

I don't mind helping.
But your dependency issues are pretty deep.
It's better for you if YOU start yourself off with your own ideas.
That way, you assume responsibility.

What makes you a good person whom you can admire & respect?
Figure it out, and do lots of that.
Originally Posted by Harmony
I am glad to have you back.

I am dealing with health issues, don't depend on me.
Ok I get your drift pepper.

I will sort myself out.

Decide my own responsibilities.

......but still pop in.
H been to the house whilst I was out. Left me a cheque for the 5000 pounds I lent him the beginning of Oct. The message on the envelope said, thanks for lending me the money I am very grateful, I love you always. H xxxx
My heart aches and is broken.
.....but I am not dependant......
Pepper - sorry to hear about your health issues hope all ok.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Already feel better being back in Plan B.

Extinction burst; don't let him draw you back out. Don't start the bad habit again, when you know that quitting the habit is better.

Harmony, read back over your own words for the last couple pages.

Your Plan B suck-diddely-ucks!

QUIT PEEKING OUT!

You aren't breaking his behavior, and you aren't helping yourself carrying on like this over and over.

You write it, you feel it, YOU KNOW IT.

Knock it off!

D-A-R-K.

Muddle over your decisions once you have stability and clarity. Quit feeding the dang dog, and he'll either do what he has to to come home, or he will quit sniffing around the dish.

Yes, he is going to get frantic and erratic, he is going to show up, call, leave notes... burn the damn notes.

Quit it. S-T-O-P.

Look at where you are! If you continue this, you are going to drain that bank to a point that even if he did change, it won't matter because he will have drained his LB$ account to a point of you hating him.

He could be the second coming of Jesus, and you won't care.

Or, is that your goal?
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
..He could be the second coming of Jesus, and you won't care.

Or, is that your goal?

I am starting to think thats her goal, at least that is where she is gonna end up anyway, if she doesn't change her behavior. The behavior will determine the result, thats what is taught here, and the truth will come out eventually.

Our words are not wasted on this, or our time
Love your posts HHH!

I am so in dark as diddly umscious Plan B!

It is so true what you say, I go dark, he reaches out, I am nice to him, then he withdraws!!!!

Ok WHY?

Is it just to know I am still around??

Anyway I have had a day of being dark, so ofcourse he has beennice to me left me some love letter note with lots of kisses.

IF I did respond warmly then he would go cold what's that all about????
Ok first day of darkness. Love note from h, torn up and in the bin. Love not wS saying how grateful H was for money loan. Still decided to go wedding traditional for the eve xx
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..It is so true what you say, I go dark, he reaches out, I am nice to him, then he withdraws!!!! banghead PING

Ok WHY?... twoxfour PONG

Anyway I have had a day of being dark, so ofcourse he has beennice to me left me some love letter note with lots of kisses. banghead PING

IF I did respond warmly then he would go cold what's that all about???? twoxfour PONG
This is what we have all been trying to tell you. Give yourself more time. Stop being so scared and desparate and making quick decisions based on emotioal feelings you JUST experienced, and using the past to justify why you are so, "Sick of it".

Now we are in the holidays, another trigger happy season for everyone. You just went into Plan B again, its been reset, one day at a time, no panic, breathe deep.
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..It is so true what you say, I go dark, he reaches out, I am nice to him, then he withdraws!!!! banghead PING

Ok WHY?... twoxfour PONG

Anyway I have had a day of being dark, so ofcourse he has beennice to me left me some love letter note with lots of kisses. banghead PING

IF I did respond warmly then he would go cold what's that all about???? twoxfour PONG
This is what we have all been trying to tell you. Give yourself more time. Stop being so scared and desparate and making quick decisions based on emotioal feelings you JUST experienced, and using the past to justify why you are so, "Sick of it".

Now we are in the holidays, another trigger happy season for everyone. You just went into Plan B again, its been reset, one day at a time, no panic, breathe deep.

Exactly. I'm not saying anything new here, Harmony. I just decided to join the choir.

Maybe having a fresh voice helps... that remains to be seen.

Quit punishing yourself by coming out of this Plan B. It's horrible...
Day 2 of darkness. Burned the note he left me.

Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/20/10 11:16 PM
Hello Harmony,

Have had some time to look in here today, and first thing is I want to send to you my sympathy and support upon the loss of your dad, even tho belated. He is very much in your life at present, even thru his spirit, your pleasant memories of him, and the positive influences he has had on you.

You have posted alot, and I have read thru most of your more recent posts. I would like to send to you a few of my thoughts, but a little later as have to do the dises and fix dinner. Takes me awhile to do the former - have a dishwasher but have only used it once. For some reason I prefer to do them manually!

Later,

Tom
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Day 2 of darkness. Burned the note he left me.

hurray

Hold tight, break him!
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Day 2 of darkness. Burned the note he left me.
hurray Are you keeping busy with other healthy activities so you can get some perspective?

Remember to post, rant, complain how you feel, do anything but..contact him.

Sorry you are going thru all this all in a row and in the holiday season.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/21/10 03:54 AM
Hi Ms. Harmony,

I want you to know first of all that there is a kewl Monday night football game on tonight that I am taking time from to post to you. I am joshing you Ms. Harmony...*s* - there is a good game on, but I wanted to post to you and at least try to offer you some support before I get lost in this Christmas week.

I just wanted to focus on a few things in your posts. First is please don't ever think you are a failure, either in life or your M. I know you really don't, but do not even let those feelings dwell. A failure is someone who doesn't care, who abandons his/her values, and doesn't wish to learn from mistakes. A failure is a football offensive lineman (a blocker for the running back or quarterback) who is too tired, too cold in an outdoor stadium, or too self-absorbed to care if his quarterback gets sacked (tackled) and if the team loses the game due to his lack of effort. Doesn't stay true to his values. Most of us make mistakes and poor choices, and that is your case Ms. Harmony - a far cry from a failure. That same offensive lineman may make some pretty critical mistakes and poor decisions in a game - blow some blocks at times - but cares, and learns, and digs down when it counts and gives best efforts.

The second thing is that I fully understand, and this is not MB necessarily, why you let your H back into your life. To that extent I guess I disagree here with a few who urged you to go by the book. You just suffered a grief event, so yea, you are going to want all the support you have, and from your H at this time especially. That isn't necessarily breaking an MB concept or strategy, it is just simply human nature. I understand, and I know I and many people would have probably done the same in your shoes in terms of inviting your H to the funeral and wanting some solace after with him.

In my mind Ms. Harmony, the most important thing is why you are in PLan B. I sort of felt that you were swayed due to your belief that it is, among other things, a tool to influence your H. My understanding is that it simply is not. Believe it or not, many of us use a short-term 'Plan B' at various times in our lives. I feel that it is not such a novel or mysterious concept. Take a simple example. How many of us ceased communication of any kind for a short time with a spouse, relative, or friend because we feel and/or know they have offended us or caused us to lose some respect or trust due to an offense. An argument, a less than major offense albeit, but offended nonetheless. For example, an argument between H and W because H made made a unilateral decision about spending some money, where to go for vacation, or coming home late from work after spending time with his male friends and not informing W that he would be delayed and why, when W has prepared a romantic dinner for the two of them. Well, mini Plan B on part of the W. Hubby gets the cold treatment, or none at all, is made to sleep in the garage, and certainly no cuddling or SF that night! Why? The W needs time to cool down, process the disappointment, recharge, and and to voice her dissatisfaction by telling H "don't you ever ever ever do this again!" It's a self-defense and protective measure we all exhibit. I have exercised this. Char is in a nursing home - we are separated in that way. A few times, when I cannot have her here, or don't satisfy her every desire she gets on me - sometimes really hard. Not vile or vindictive, but harsh, angry, and sometimes accusatory. In some of those times I retreat. I don't give in or curry, but simply break off the conversation as best I can and not call her for a couple of days. It is my way of avoiding what could become an acceleration by venting back to her and also to recharge and rethink. It isn't to 'teach her a lesson', altho I have to confess that is a minor consideration, it is to relive my stress and the stress of the situation and to evaluate if I did wrong. Hell Ms. Harmony, even Christ had to get away from his sometimes weak-kneed apostles or the public and simply go out and pray alone to simply recharge!

My long-winded observation is this: I wish I could influence you to change your approach to your Plan B. Many on here have advised this Ms. Harm. I am not advising you to a Plan B - that is your choice and decision. If you do continue with your renewed Plan B, then do it for the right reason - YOU. Not to impact your H, influence him, or sway anything. Do it because you need the time, and the peace and quiet to recharge, and objectively evaluate. You are not in the process of a simple argument and one of those 'mini' plan B's, pretty much knowing that the two of you will make up after an evening of him sleeping in the garage, or even a day or so of the cold shoulder approach. Those situations do not involve serious matters of trust and respect, and are easily made up due to the trust, respect, and the passion for the marriage still there. Your's is a possible life altering situation. Your decision, as I understand you, is to decide if he is the guy who has the capability of offering you unquestioned trust, respect, and passion for your marriage. That simply takes humility and devotion from any man - once you know you have that from him - then you will be fulfilled. That has to be demonstrated by OUTWARD SIGNS. Not just a few, as I am sure you fully realize, and not just offering to attend your dad's funeral, getting together with you after, and repaying the 5,000 lbs. These seem manipulating and obligatory on his part to me. Therefore, your going dark, if you choose, is to give you an opportunity to clear your mind and heart for this important decision, and not allow the distraction of him 'dipping in and dipping out'. It is obvious you love him still and respect your M still Ms. Harm, but even so, his rants, raves, intensity, hand-wringing, manupulations, etc., etc. during your plan B is for YOUR good as well as for his. When you feel in your gut, not your heart, but your gut, that he is sincere about changing, then and only then with a clear mind will you be able to make this life decision.

Whew, sorry for being so long-winded Ms. Harmony, but I just wanted to express my feeling that you are so close, but again, somewhat away from doing the right thing for you and your H. Not from past offenses and hurt, but from the standpoint of sharing your life with the right partner. Ya know, I am preparing to have Char here, and our son is now staying with me, and dau. is coming in shortly after Christmas. Yea, lots to do and a little stressful, simply by lots to do, but I would not have it any other way. Then in January, we celebrate, Lord willing, our 42nd! Even tho when I look in her face and eyes, I see someone older than the beautiful redhead that I married back in Jan. of 1969. I know she looks at me and sees a gray-haired shrivled-up Clint Eastwood type of character...*s* I am still happy to be responsible for HER physical and spiritual well-being and happiness.

If I don't get to post to you before, then please Ms. Harm, have the happies and most peaceful Christmas you could possible have.

Tom
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/21/10 04:33 AM
Just an afterthought Ms. Harmony,

I forgot to mention that I agree with all the others here who are advising you not to make any life decsions for awhile regarding your M, job, etc., apart fomr implementing your Plan B. When I was in treatment for alcohol addition in '92 I and others were advised that. At the time I felt that was an imposition of my right to decide for myself. I learned it was true tho - a person recovering from any major loss or grief is less likely to make a wise decision. Instead Ms. Harm do some simple things like Bubbles suggested - different, and challenging, and even 'crazy' things. Bake a turkey or a pie and take it to a shelter this season, go to a park and lie down and make a snow angel (I am not sure if or how much snow you have there in the UK) even tho bystanders think you are crazy, fall in love with a cute puppy or cat, buy him/her and take her home, or just take a walk on a peacefull night, look at the moon, and just wonder about the mysteries and challenges of life.

Again Ms. Harmony, best of wishes to you, lighten up, and Merry Christmas.

Tom







Such awesome posts Tom. Seriuosly. Merry Xmas to you and Char.
You want to do something that will take up lots of time and keep you busy?

Buy a turducken and make it.
Ok, I'll bite

"whats a turduken?"

or

" How do you make a turduken?"
Tom,

Quote
When you feel in your gut, not your heart, but your gut, that he is sincere about changing, then and only then with a clear mind will you be able to make this life decision.

How can someone "feel" that her H's affair is over? In desperate times feelings can and will delude a person, that is why she needs evidence (NC, agreement and plan for recovery, EP's and actions), not just a gut feeling, that her H is serious about himself, her and recovery. Her H has done "right" things many times and Harmony has momentarily been able to notice that and say that it felt good. Good for her that she has also questioned his motives. In my opinion she needs much more than just a gut feeling, otherwise she risks with false recovery.

End of t/j.
A turducken is a chicken inside of a duck inside of a turkey.

It's absolute h@ll to prepare and takes forever. Some say it takes at least a day...
Day 3 Darkness, who its so dark in here I can't see where I am going!

Awesome post Tom.

Thanks for all your support guys. Hope you understand why I broke PLan B, needed hubbie around, pleased you get that.

Originally Posted by Tom2010
My long-winded observation is this: I wish I could influence you to change your approach to your Plan B. Many on here have advised this Ms. Harm. I am not advising you to a Plan B - that is your choice and decision. If you do continue with your renewed Plan B, then do it for the right reason - YOU. Not to impact your H, influence him, or sway anything. Do it because you need the time, and the peace and quiet to recharge, and objectively evaluate. You are not in the process of a simple argument and one of those 'mini' plan B's, pretty much knowing that the two of you will make up after an evening of him sleeping in the garage, or even a day or so of the cold shoulder approach. Those situations do not involve serious matters of trust and respect, and are easily made up due to the trust, respect, and the passion for the marriage still there. Your's is a possible life altering situation. Your decision, as I understand you, is to decide if he is the guy who has the capability of offering you unquestioned trust, respect, and passion for your marriage. That simply takes humility and devotion from any man - once you know you have that from him - then you will be fulfilled. That has to be demonstrated by OUTWARD SIGNS. Not just a few, as I am sure you fully realize, and not just offering to attend your dad's funeral, getting together with you after, and repaying the 5,000 lbs. These seem manipulating and obligatory on his part to me. Therefore, your going dark, if you choose, is to give you an opportunity to clear your mind and heart for this important decision, and not allow the distraction of him 'dipping in and dipping out'. It is obvious you love him still and respect your M still Ms. Harm, but even so, his rants, raves, intensity, hand-wringing, manupulations, etc., etc. during your plan B is for YOUR good as well as for his. When you feel in your gut, not your heart, but your gut, that he is sincere about changing, then and only then with a clear mind will you be able to make this life decision.


This really does make alot of sense, I just have to take the focus off him and onto ME. I have to quit being so needy, and start being properly independant. I also think I need to show that not only to myself but to my H, so he knows I have learnt from my A and that he will be amazed at the changes.

I do already start to see a change in H, he actually seems quite depressed in some ways. Over the past few days when H supported me with my Dad, we did have some good talks. H does not understand why I left him to start a new life with a new man. I explain that I didn't communicate my needs to my H and therefore, let someone else meet them through weak boundaries and poor morals. That I dug a hole and kept digging to run away from myself and my poor choices, I wasa coward. H also said, Harmony you fell in love with the OM! I said it was more like an addiction, I felt that he gave me what I needed but I actually needed it from you! We also talked about the M, pre A, this is quite a difficult subject as H is not so great at accepting responsibility for the state of the position pre A. I have to tread carefully here as he is quite defensive. I just said that I wanted him to make more effort with me, thats all, I felt like he didn't put the effort in the relationship he still does not really get that.

H does seem to be quite down. In some ways it seems to me he is trying to show me what I am missing and how he has grown too. He has cut down on his drinking and stopped smoking, I think he has broken out of his self destructive ways and is just trying to find himself a little. I know everyone thinks he has OW, I really don't think he has, I am not saying he is acting like a saint, that I will never know until we are together and we have EP's in place. I just think he needs to work out in his head whether he can forgive me for my A, whether I will forgive him for his A's and whether he can actually make me happy, as in his mind he gave me everything pre A.

H said he is spending this time on his own, doing hobbies appart from golf and working and that I always 'moaned' at him that he was never interested in anything else.

Anyway, at least we TALKED.

I suppose I am most afraid that he won't be able to give me what I need, love support and care. I think he can, I believe in him.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I think he can, I believe in him.


I hope that at some point, you communicated this exactly to him.
Noooooooooo frown
Harmony,

You said
Quote
I suppose I am most afraid that he won't be able to give me what I need, love support and care. I think he can, I believe in him.

You are missing the whole point. What you just said is a DJ, you are making assumptions about him and his capability. What you must do is evaluate based on actions and behavior, not potential.

Just as we expect you actually do what you say when you say it. We cannot assume you will do it, want to do it, or even know you should do it. It doesn't matter. What matters is have you done it. Assumptions are what lead to expectations which leads to resentment.

People have already point this out to you, but you must remember that plan B is for you to protect your love so that recovery is possible. It is not about your H doing or not doing something. It is not about influencing your H. It is about protecting your love. If that is gone, then the chances of recovery are slim.

Please focus on the "data" and not on your assumptions and expectations.

God Bless,

JL
@Harmony -

What is the criteria for starting recovery with your WS?
Hi Clark

It would have to be no contact with other women, commitment to the M and actions which demonstrate he has learnt/grown from this whole process.

Do you think that makes sense?
On another note, went out with an English friend of mine that is over here on holiday from Calgary in Canada. My friend married a Canadaian about 8 years ago and then shehad an affair, divorced her H (not to be with OM but because she said she was unahppy).

Theaffair broke up within months, he became very flaky and supportive and it all crumbled. It made me sad as I feel that she still loves her XH, but won't admit it to herself because she feels that she has to justify the divorce. It seems to me that she was doing what seems to be very common in young marriages, an inability to be able to communicate needs and feelings either positive or negative.

It was difficult talking to her because I wanted to say that you can recover this you know, you can have a new better M, I guess it is pride before a fall.

Miss my H tonight, I want to give him a big kiss smile

Feeling very down about my H and M at the moment.

Fed up of being alone and would like to have someone in my life to share it with.

I read my old thread of how my H treated me, and quite frankly I am surprised that I am still waiting it out.

I really don't know what I am doing and really am thinking why am I bothering?

When we had chats over the last week, H would not take any responsibility for the M, and continued to list off my failings.

I am loving Plan B and am going to enjoy myself.

Oh interestingly I had a session with SH yesterday, not really sure what to make of it. SH advice was that I should continue to date H and that I should try in a non demanding way to get him to agree to a plan to rebuild the marriage.

Not looking forward to Christmas day, I am with ALL couples, even my nephew whose 20 is there with his GF, and I will be turning up saddo singleton 'Bridget Jones' at 35.

You gotta laugh. Meanwhile my H thinks he is single. Too much.

I am still making plans and getting on.

I am starting to realise and understand where my H is. This is all about him taking back control. He believes pre A that I was the one in control and he made more effort with my family than his, so he is going to spend time doing what he wants to do. I do believe this is still some kind of punishment, you wanted me to be like this, I will be and I will do it alone. This is about him doing what he wants to do, and that if I truly love him that he is worth waiting for and in the meantime he will go out and enjoy himself.

This is the closest I have felt like to walking way for good. In a rational and calm frame of mind. The thing is I know if I make that decision I will have peace that I tried everything, whereas he will never have that.

I have been trying to save my 3 1/2 year M for the last 18 months, we have been unhappily married longer than we have happily married. I really feel like I need to get away and have some time away change of scenery ect...

Very tempted to sit down with H and say;

I love you but I can't try any longer, I am exhausted. I cannot remain married to someone who we continue to leaded separate lives for nearly a year. I had the A I take responsibility but I just cann;t do this any longer.
Oh Harmony,

I was reading your old thread also and you have put up with alot, you both have.

Why don't you want to take Steve H's advice on the dating?
I have not read anywhere here, a BH/WH acting out in this way in response to an A.

In addition, the punishment is still ongoing. He must be more exhausted than I am doing all this punishment work!
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Oh Harmony,

I was reading your old thread also and you have put up with alot, you both have.

Why don't you want to take Steve H's advice on the dating?


Because I am not sure I want to right now! I think I am partly scared off rejection it gets tiring after 1 year, and because it has to come from within, I am hoping a good nights sleep I might feel better about it in the morn!

Yes my A set him off in a BIG WAY, 4 RA's and blatant cheating in front of me whilst we were living together for at least 6 months. My behaviour was just as bad ofcourse, sometime i forget that smile

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Very tempted to sit down with H and say;

I love you but I can't try any longer, I am exhausted. I cannot remain married to someone who we continue to leaded separate lives for nearly a year. I had the A I take responsibility but I just cann;t do this any longer.
This is not going to help you. Nothing you can SAY TO A WS IS GOING TO FORCE THEM OUT OF IT.

He WILL hear your actions, tho.

He is going to have to decide if, when and how by himself
There have been a few RA's, but I do not know anyone who has had 4 in such a short time.



Hi MB Friends

Still in Plan B Dark, in between the waves of grief for my father and H I feel I am fairing up pretty well.

H been to the house today whilst I was out and left me a parcel of presents for me.

Confused?

He is going away skiing NY, dont want to be mean but I hope he breaks a leg. Ouch.

Really feeling some calmness going on in my head. The main thing I have learnt here is to make my own decisions, as they are pretty good ones, if they come from a calm and rational thought out place. That I don't really need anyone else's opinion with the change in boundaries, morals, perspective and growth I have learnt here.

OK this is the score this is where I believe my H is.

I had the A, and he was badly hurt by that, he did not know how to handle it so went on a path of self destruction, involving booze, other women and boys holidays. Actually probably started enjoying it, he could do what he liked when he liked, still had me at home and used my affair as justification for his actions. The 6 week Dark Plan B I went through, was him starting to come out of the fog a little, gently started to make him realise how strong his feelings are for me, confusing him. I now believe that although he is still upset about my A, and I think he gets my remorse and understands why I did what I did and all the things I have learnt from it and that I would never do it again. I believe this is more about his actions now and that coming home to me, is scary for him as he is worried about facing upto the way he has treated me and me getting angry at him. He has also gotten use to the 'single lifestyle'. I also think he had this NY trip planned for awhile and that he knows deep down it is the wrong thing to do, which is why he keeps talking about us sitting down in the NY to sort things out as in his mind he can go away, be single and have fun, as we have not made any commitment to each other and technically he is still 'single'. That way he gets to go away have fun, and then me be sat at home with open arms when he gets back. Happy days?

This is where I am at. I am in Dark Plan B. Unless I see serious action on my H part to rebuild this M. I mean actions, not words. Meanwhile I will try to be the best woman I can possibly be, planting the seeds of forgiveness.
Harmony,
I think what you say might be right, maybe not, I would ask you how do you think he would act if he thought you had a life outside of him, I love the story on the forums about the woman that got all decked out, looking her best, heels and all when she saw her wayward husband, let him think she had a life and maybe a new interest and then she went to the library and read.......what happens if you had him guessing, right now he knows you are at home remorseful, maybe if he thought you can't just sit around and wait for him to come around.......and that Harmony is also in need of companionship and some fun outings...............what do you think he would do, do you think he would think good for her, maybe he will really have to think about losing you for good........just a question ..........I dont' mean to really have a new man, just the illusion of one............
just to see how he reacts........
interesting question.............
I really hope for you that he comes around. I think you may be right about his motives, but he is a wayward. He could 180 at alny time.

Keep the quiet in your life. It is your best friend.
Quote
H been to the house today whilst I was out and left me a parcel of presents for me.

This is not Plan B. You remove yourself from any contact with WS.

What are you doing for yourself? What new activities are you planning after the Holidays? What things would you like to change about yourself?

When am I going to hear about a "Fun Harmony Day"? What happened to this?
Hiya Clark

I have put the parcel in the shed, I can't stop him coming to the house, but he can't get in.

Very tempted to open though.

Have lots of nice things planned for the hols. Christmas eve mulled wine and midnight mass with girls, Christmas day with my wonderful big family, boxing day tug of war. Then next week I am going upto London to see GFs. I would like to get a ski trip in, fingers crossed. So doing well.

I do believe that H will want up reconcile at some point, I am really concerned I would be doing the right thing.

I know my A was a form of abuse, but his treatment has been very cruel and he has wanted to see me suffer. I really unsure about what terms to reconcile and want to be prepared if we ever get uo that stage.

One part of thinks him being commuted to the marriage and stop seeing other women is enough. What about remorse? What about IC for his abusive behaviour? Or do I work on the last 2 as part of the program?

Happy holidays all.
Focus, Harmony. Focus on maintaining Plan B.

Look at your posts; one day you hate him and say it's over, the next you love him and all you want is him back.


Breathe! Focus! LIVE!

You don't have to make any choices when you don't even know what you want. You DO have to maintain Plan B enough to figure it out first.

Is he demonstrating that he can have a full life, happy without you? Maybe so.

You should really be doing the same.

Part of this isn't just convincing the other, it's about convincing YOURSELF.


Knowing that if it was what I decided, that I could walk away tomorrow, and be healthy, happy, and successful - and knowing that every morning I wake up that I choose to be in this marriage - is what gets me by.

Not worrying about trust, not worrying about forgiveness, not worrying about resentment. Those things can only be handled with time and action, and submitting to that fact allows me to carry those stones, rather than drag them behind my ankles.

It ain't all sunshine and roses, that would be an unrealistic expectation.

Just last night I unexpectedly fell into a deep dark hole. My plan is to hunt down the little pygmy that dug it, wrap it in a burlap sack, and chuck it down a big, steep hill.

Even with a FWW doing everything right, it is still hard, it still suck-diddely-ucks.

Stay strong, and have a merry Christmas.
Hi HHH

This is a very good point that I need to be able to convince myself that I can live a happy healthy life without him, and I am almost there.

I do think that I am probably more needy for him because of my Dad recently passing away.

I do also think my H has grown a little in my time spent with him last week. He seems to be gaining some different perspective on situations and having time on his own.

H turned up at house banging on door, I hid upstairs in the bathroom. He was shouting I only want to be friends with you and you can't stop me having access, one minute you want to have contact now this. After 20 mins he left.

I am feeling guilty about being in Plan B.

I did not talk to him, but it was tough.
Posted By: Xau Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/24/10 03:45 PM
Plan B it must be working on him, he will get worse before he learns to behave. Be prepared and stay on course.

Best wishes
Thanks Xau.

I am feeling very guilty about Plan B, also worried that it is a major love buster.

I am scared that because I let him in to support me with my Dad passing away and now he thinks I don't know what I want.

I am frightened that I maybe should have listened to SH advice and asked him to date me.

I have told him that I love him and want to repair the M, but unless he is commited to leave me alone.

This is so word. Word of advice, never ever commit adultery.

Feeling very disillusioned.

Please tell me Plan B is the right thing to do.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Feeling very disillusioned.

Please tell me Plan B is the right thing to do.

It's the right thing to do.

For both of you.

It isn't fair to you to peek out, it also isn't fair to him.

It interrupts the process for both of you.
Posted By: Xau Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/24/10 04:59 PM
You have started Plan B stick to it.

You will feel better as time passes and will get more control of your own feelings and daily events.

Hang in there, focus on having a great Christmas with your family and friends. Keep away from WH and stay on course.
Thanks Guys

Ofcourse will stick to the plan, just bit worried about SH advice.

I have clearly communicated to H, that he is only to contact me if he is serious about commiting to the M.

I am enjoying PLan B, I feel a whole lot better and am really going to use this time to enjoy being me and spend time with family and friends.

I am really going to try and stop thinking about H, and in way I am thinking of taking a break from the MB site as coming here posting means that I am still thinking of him. I need to give my brain a rest and stop obsessing about the situation.

I will only come here and post of I have any temptation to break the Plan B.

I hope you all have a lovely Christmas, and want to thank you all for getting me back on my feet, so I can actually be on my own without crumbling.

I now need to actually ENJOY my life without him, rather than just getting by.

Happy Holidays MB Friends.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/24/10 05:19 PM
Hi again Ms. Harmony,

I agree with the others - you ARE doing the right thing for you. Please don't let yourself be rocked and influenced by your H's short-term day-to-day reactions, and focus on the longer-term goal of protecting yourself and your love for him as well as to demonstrate what he will miss if he chooses not to reconcile with you. And, I mean sincere reconciliation, not just words.

Now, go and enjoy your Holiday as best you can.

Tom
Merry Xmas Harmony,
Hang in there girl, you are doing the right thing across the board for you and your H, things can't go like they have been, you can't be happy with the way he is, he can't have his cake and eat it too.......
Plan B forces him to re-evaluate his methods.......he must decide which life he wants and how he will approach the changes that he will have make, his decision alone, all you can do is take care of you right now........if he comes to his senses he will have to prove it to you, I think you have shown him, told him how sorry you have been for your part.........the only way it works for the two of you is an attitude change for him.........so far he hasn't shown it...........he knows what he has to do.......
Sit back, dark and see how he reacts.............
take care of yourself over the holidays........
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Thanks Guys

Ofcourse will stick to the plan, just bit worried about SH advice.

I have clearly communicated to H, that he is only to contact me if he is serious about commiting to the M....

Coming to the door is not a date right?

You don't date someone if they are not going act like an adult do you?

Don't worry, your just feeling a little desparate and dramatic. I am sure anyone who wanted to get to know someone on a date doesn't freak out and show up unannounced. He needs time to get ahold of himself too. Thats the wisdom of plan B. You are still committed to a marriage if it will be a real one, with proper respect to that. Not respect to emotions and fears that come from dramatic fantasys or desparate acts like banging down the door, hurting each other in affairs, and the like.

When he has agreed to act right and talk to SH about what he must do, he will be better suited as dating material.

You are following SH advice.

Take some time off the site if it will help you to gain clarity and stop triggers of impending doom, but use us if you need support, and definatly keep us posted.

Your gonna be alright, Have a merry Xmas

Take some time off, hang with some good friends
Advice from my therapist, he told me to be still for the holidays, 10 days, just don't think about my relationship or everything that has happened.......He said I only want you to concentrate on making the ones around you happy during the holidays...............let your mind be Still.............concentrate on your blessings ......
jessi
Originally Posted by jessitaylor
Advice from my therapist, he told me to be still for the holidays, 10 days, just don't think about my relationship or everything that has happened.......He said I only want you to concentrate on making the ones around you happy during the holidays...............let your mind be Still.............concentrate on your blessings ......
jessi

I think I will take that advice too Jessie, it ok to take time and live in the now huh? santa001

Merry Xmas to you.

Going over to daughters house to spend Xmas eve. 3 yr old Grandaughter and I discussused that I didn't have a tree, so maybe I should stay over, so Santa would be able to leave me presents. Of course I think her Mommy had something to do with it also, because she asked me if I want to be thier when GD came out and saw all the princess toys Santa left.

Go spend time with your family Harmony, treasure those who love you and reciprocate, ignore those who don't, minute by minute, and know that you are loved and love allways wins. Its the only thing worth fighting for, and many here will stand by you, and are praying, for the peace that passes understanding for you.

Take this time to commune with God, and let him fill you, and bring you peace
All alone on Xmas morning, trying to straighten myself out to face the day. Trying to be strong, trying to be brave and trying not to crumble.

No phone call from my Dad, no phone call from my H, never want to be in this place again.
Aww Harm, I would have hoped you could have went to Moms at least, or your sis's.

Yeah, I can understand you feel bad, Try and be with a good friend OK?

Best wishes
I made it and never ever want to go through a Christmas like that again. I am so glad it is over.

Although no one would have knew, I put on a brave face, played with my nieces and nephews, helped in the kitchen and joined in.

I cried for about 2 hours yesterday morning, but I needed to do it. It was a good stress relief. Mostly tears for my Dad and that I wouldn't be speaking to him on Christmas Day, and a whole load of anger towards my H for not being there to support me and for rejecting me and the M.

I feel VERY rejected by my H, that is so painful, and even more painful knowing I caused it. I also have been feeling a lot of pain not only my A, but his A's aswell.

Really started to think that in the NY I may put our house on the market. We spent so much money and time on this house, but ever since we have been here it has all gone wrong, so whatever happens not sure I want to live here. Also he had 2 of the OW here in the house.

A lot of anger, I need to go for a long run to burn off some stress!

I also started to wander if I am depressed. I am going to start eating and excerising more, but might go and see the Docs in the NY.

It is so difficult to try and fight for a M after you have had an A, and you H is WH.

Hope you all had a lovely Christmas.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..A lot of anger, I need to go for a long run to burn off some stress!

I also started to wander if I am depressed. I am going to start eating and excerising more, but might go and see the Docs in the NY...

Exercize is agreat way to reduce stress, focus, and naturally boost the feel good chemicals in ourselves. Allways a good first step in taking care of ourselves, and ussually pays off is a lot of areas.

Ill be glad to see the season over too. It has been better this year though, not so dramatic. Even more peaceful.

Remember Harm, all those things you are angry for and at, don't give in to the temptation of reacting OK? Its the natural thing to do. Breathe deep, let it go.
Thanks Constant smile

Its not that I am going to contact H, but it is more the PAIN. I feel like he has made his plans and is getting on and has USED me. He wantedus not to be together at Chritsmas and wanted to go away NY withouth me. Its just such a slap in the face. Its like when were were together I wanted to go snowboarding, running, scuba diving together and he was never that interested, all of a sudden he has a real passion for all these things. I guess a lot of what I am feeling right now is anger for him going away NY snowboarding when he knows I would love to do this with him and not wanting to be with me at Christmas.

I just want to LIVE and be happy, without him. Its just not happening.

I just don't get him, maybe he is right, he said to me that he things we need a few months appart on our own, maybe he is right. Then at the same time he doens't want me to move on.

Rant over, I am trying I really am.
Mum came over and spent the afternoon with me, she is the greatest!! I have always been very close to my mother.

My mother thinks my H is an abuser and all he wants is to control me and that I am strong and clear in Plan B, then I break it and I am a wreck. My mother really wants me to move on altogether.

Anyway we had a good discussion about how I move forward in the Plan B. Mum thinks I am doing really well and that I am being too hard on myself, that I broke no contact at a very vulnerable point, and that in a few days I will be on top of it again.

That it takes a little time to build a life on my own.

I said how I felt that H was doing really well and that made me feel a failure, and mum made a good point that you only know what he tells you.

Anyway, I am still very dark - a week now.

Thanks again for being here.

Harmony






(((( Harmony's Mom ))))

(((( Harmony ))))
Mom comes first
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Its not that I am going to contact H, but it is more the PAIN. I feel like he has made his plans and is getting on and has USED me.
I understand, but unless he is seeing other women and treating them better than he ever treated you, made a commitment to them, and filed for divorce, he is just really living his own plan B part, and you do not know what he will in the future do for you if he gets his issues straightened out.. Time will tell, no crystal balls. It is a normal reaction to anybody who is plan B, or shall we call it,"Temporarily seperated with a plan on reconciliation"
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
He wantedus not to be together at Chritsmas and wanted to go away NY withouth me.

Did he have plans to hook up with someone again? Why would he not want to be with you? Maybe he is confused also, but it didn't mean he would slide down into a pit, you just don't know where his head is at completly, and he hasn't had time alone to realize what it would be like without you. Its only been a short while.

You are supposed to let him be by himself, and not know anything about what he is doing, so you can process the past, and think about building a future, based on now.

Again its normal Harmony to want to do something, but your still too raw, as is He.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
.. Its like when were were together I wanted to go snowboarding, running, scuba diving together and he was never that interested, all of a sudden he has a real passion for all these things. I guess a lot of what I am feeling right now is anger for him going away NY snowboarding when he knows I would love to do this with him and not wanting to be with me at Christmas...

That sounds more like a control issue Harmony, and something he didn't realize was blocking him from having a great time with you. Many people do this in a state of confusion.

I wonder why also, but that is really a question he must answer, and it definatly seems to me that his IB was part of his insecurity. He still is trying to improve himself. Was golf, now added to that all the other things, well, that he probably liked, but his wife did also, so it seems even more important that he does. He might even be connecting in a roundabout way to a life he wishes he had with you.

Why he didn't spend time with you in those things we don't yet know, and he has not examined that either. I doubt it was to hurt you, but more to protect himself. We have allready determined this is something that has to do with his own insecurities that he must deal with.

I believe he is still afraid, and doesn't even know why. He is afraid to be with you now also and wishes he could make it all go away, but doesn't trust anything now, just as he doesn't trust himself.

That is why he is left with the choice, trust someone else besides who he feels he can control, or be alone, untill he gets a healthier perspective. He has MB, and couselling to lean on when he comes back to earth. You are waiting untill he does that, and its hard we know.

Can you forgive him for being so weak? I wonder if he believes that yet? Give it time.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..I just want to LIVE and be happy, without him. Its just not happening...

MB is for living and being happy WITH him, and if your honest thats what you really want.

Yes your angry and hurt, and want the pain to be over, we all have to go thru that. Take it from me as not someone who thinks he has all the answers for anybody. You will have to process this emotion whether you are with him or not, and put it all in the past, reguardless if you recover or not.

It may not result in a rollercoaster of good and bad emotional highs or lows, but it will give you peace and stabilize your life. The relationship dos and don'ts along with joint honesty and forgiveness can repair your marriage, holding onto the past will just bring regret and more fear for the future.

This is the wisdom of trusting what is true and good, and to many, God and the covering of His individual love for all of us. I assure you this will pass also, and that you will find peace in doing what is right for you and WH. I believe MB has the tools, and God has a plan for you too.

Wait and see what is revealed in time, thats what we all must do as we heal.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..I just don't get him, maybe he is right, he said to me that he things we need a few months appart on our own, maybe he is right. Then at the same time he doens't want me to move on.

Rant over, I am trying I really am.

What does it mean "he doens't want me to move on."?

Do you mean he doesn't want to Divorce so you can move onto someone else?

You know that would not be a good idea right? I mean IMO you would be setting yourself up for more drama. You don't need that or have anything to prove Harm. Another man deserves more than a rebound relationship, and you would have too much baggage I believe you would be asking him to heal.

So if WH doesn't wnat you to D, does that mean he still loves you? Even if he is a mess, at least give the plan B some time for him to realize his part in this mess, so he can get some help too.

I think you know that would be the right decision, along with for you what Plan B was designed for. To get yourself individually healthy without the "need" of anyone else in your life.

Again, time Harm, and yes, you are really trying, just hang in there.

Take a breath
Originally Posted by Pepperband
(((( Harmony's Mom ))))

(((( Harmony ))))
Mom comes first

Ditto
Thanks for your reply Constant.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
That sounds more like a control issue Harmony, and something he didn't realize was blocking him from having a great time with you. Many people do this in a state of confusion.

I wonder why also, but that is really a question he must answer, and it definatly seems to me that his IB was part of his insecurity. He still is trying to improve himself. Was golf, now added to that all the other things, well, that he probably liked, but his wife did also, so it seems even more important that he does. He might even be connecting in a roundabout way to a life he wishes he had with you.


Its just strange, because in our time appart all H seems to be doing (from what he tells me) is that he is doing activities / going places that I always asked him to do but never showed much interest. For example, I always wanted him to go running with me along the beach, he bought the trainers, then they sat in the cupboard for years and we always use to joke about the fact he never used them, this went on for about 3 years. NOW he is going out running all the time! Same for snowboarding, travelling, spending time with his family ect...All things I encouraged him to do. It seems like he is trying to send me some kind of message - look at what I'm missing!

I still believe in him, even though everyone round me are telling me he has no plans to sort things out. Sometimes I just worry that he may be a truly broken person and really does not care or love me, just 'gaslights' me so I do not move on.

I guess I just really need to know, is he just not that into me? I am losing hope here.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
MB is for living and being happy WITH him, and if your honest thats what you really want.


Ofcourse, thats all I really want, that is why I am here, that is my goal. I just worry that the whole Plan B thing, gives me false hope. I know it is for me to move on, and in Jan that is what I intend to do. I am going to get the house on the market, and get everything lined up.

Thanks for the hugs guys, your right my Mum comes first honestly, she is AMAZING, I am so very lucky to have her.
I believe that he has some problems that he cannot identify internally and won't admit he needs help on. Plan B may be the way for him to procrastiate for a while, but these relationship issues, will haunt him untill he gets help, and sorts out what kind of life he really wants.

I don't believe he wants to be with skanks or be seperate from you, but because he was stagnated, and you complained about it, he thought his head in the sand was the only place safe, so he stubbornly hung onto it. The rest is history now.

I want to challange you with something Harm. Do you think you can really love this man, and respect him, even though he has issues? Many people at times in ther lives have some major problems, and they eventually overcome them, and deserve respect for that. Its part of being human that none of us are proud of, that we make terrible judgements out of fear and poor support from others that are also very screwwed up. Granted the most simple approach is to separate from them till they get it together, and some never will or try, but those who do need support in the truth, and not complete and ultimate rejection.

I think your WH falls into this catagory and doesn't trust anyone, and has suffered a lot of rejection from his family. He used to trust you but he still had issues that he would not address, and now all his worse fears have come upon him, and he is the author of his own demise.

Much of the counselling industry has been labeled with the task of "re-parenting" people. Its a noble task and hopefully teaches patients the real life skills to live well, reguardless of how much they screwed up in the past, based on thier ability to understand they must change, or re-suffer the same consequences.

It only is effective if the patient has the revelation that they need help, accepts it, and does the work. If your WH does the work, and is willing to face that he is like anyone else, no better or worse as relates to his capacity to submit and learn, he just might end up being someone you can respect when his fog clears.

I know that is what your praying for, and with all the possibilitys in your life you wonder if it is the best choice to wait any longer, and that is your choice of course. You wont like it if you don't give him time alone to figure this out, and yourself time too.

So here is the challange Harm. Wait for some time more, with clear-cuts avenues of choices for WH to make, not just to restore the marriage, but to help him anyway. Because you care enough for him and are strong enough in yourself to love even those who act unlovely.

His behavior is not getting by unpunished, and he is not getting away with anything, he still is lost.

You just have to point the path back, and stand for what you really want, and the stability you need, without letting him back in half-way. That has been what the temptation has been for you, in your sitch also.


Have you posted the next Plan B letter? The new one? Tell me and I will go back and look at it. Just wondering if him getting therapy for his issues is part of it.


January is upon us. You have had a tough time doing a solid plan B right? Understood why too BTW, but think about what it could mean to you both if and when you have seen the ugly truth about each other, and choose to love and forgive each other anyway, sometime in the future.

Be the stable one Harm, just for awhile if not for your whole life together, and yes, you can do this.

Can you stop looking at him like he is getting everything without consequence, and see that he is really messed up and scared too, even though it seems to be only hurting you? He surely is losing not working on loving you Harm. Concentrate on that truth, instead of the lie that is telling you that you don't matter. Thats a lot of what plan B is for, for you.
ConstantProcess,
I just read your post and I have chills. You could be talking about my WH.

Harmony, if this sounds like your husband the best thing you can do is let him hit his bottom. I know it hurts BAD and you want to see him suffer the consequences. I bet he already is suffering from his actions but is lying to you and himself about it. You said you were angry because he is doing all the things you have been asking him to do with you. IMO I think he is doing them as a distraction. He has to keep moving and distract himself from... HIMSELF. The best thing you can do for yourself and him is a dark plan B. It sounds like you have a great support in your mum. If you feel like you are loosing it call her.

Take care Harmony.
Hey Harm, have you ever prayed for patience like this?

" God give me patience, and I want it right now!"

Slow down, smell the roses, and give Plan B a chance for you OK?

Its worth the wait, and why be in a hurry anyway? You have nothing to prove, nothing to hide, and nothing to fear in doing what is right reguarding this marriage.


I can't believe its all about your bio clock and children, appearances or status with you. I just don't believe it about you. There is more to you than that. I think you want more than that anyway, and are in such a hurry to have it, also.

So whats the hurry?
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
.. Concentrate on that truth, instead of the lie that is telling you that you don't matter. ...

Just to clarify this statement in case you misunderstood. The lie is something that bred in the relationship, or was present within one of you, beforehand. The truth is that you are both preciuos and worthy of being loved. The pain you caused with the affair, and the pain he has inflicted to you was both of you trying to control the other and your takers running loose. The reactions are understood, just not healthy for anyone.

Human condition Harm, we all have to deal with it, and its a tough road. Own it, or it owns you.

Thats what all the talk about protecting the Marriage is about, it a covenant with a higher calling than just rosy relationships and 2 1/2 kids and perfection in human beings. Its learning to love from a place of imperfection also, as we are loved that way too, by God.

I mean, if it were not for God, we would still be throwing the imperfect off the cliff when they were born, and having witch hunts. Trying to be God.

Its not over till you quit, then you lose, not till then.

Don't let those negative lies about how preciuos your marraige is scare you away from what its deeper purpose.

To love somebody in sickness and in health, because you are strong enough to. God gives those priveledges to us because he knows we all need it, and the vows are for us as much as for the ones we give love, so we can grow in love also.

To forsake all others...Parents, friends, jobs and even spiritual leaders, because nobody is as important as you, and your mate belongs to you along with thier care, as they are part of you. Tell me you don't feel that to be true, and I'll ignore it.

To cherish, that is as much as you cherish life itself, and the gift of it, and whom you have embraced to share it with, not because they are perfect in your eyes only, because we don't have the capacity to see the whole picture with total objectivity. Because as God cherishs them, they are worth it. Whether we like it or not, that is the real truth.

What I am pointing to is that we all have faults, made bad choices, and suffer the consequences of them. We need to look outside ourselves for guidance when we really screw up, and hopefully up.

Dr H didn't make this site for perfect people. If he did there would be nobody here, because there would never be any problems would there? Everybody is so vastly different than another but have gone through thier own trials also. But what still stands true through all of it, is the need to be loved, and our need to understand what it is, and if I may be so Bold, where it comes from, God.

Look up Harm, and listen to the many angels here in making a plan, and stick with it in faith. In the end its all we have.
Originally Posted by letgoletGod
..
Harmony, if this sounds like your husband the best thing you can do is let him hit his bottom. I know it hurts BAD and you want to see him suffer the consequences. I bet he already is suffering from his actions but is lying to you and himself about it. You said you were angry because he is doing all the things you have been asking him to do with you. IMO I think he is doing them as a distraction. He has to keep moving and distract himself from... HIMSELF. The best thing you can do for yourself and him is a dark plan B. It sounds like you have a great support in your mum. If you feel like you are loosing it call her.

Take care Harmony.

Yeah I agree completly
Originally Posted by letgoletGod
..Harmony, if this sounds like your husband the best thing you can do is let him hit his bottom. I know it hurts BAD and you want to see him suffer the consequences. ..

Believe me Harmony, When i saw my wife dieing from the consequences she brought on herself. I still knowing I did all I could to help her avoid them, did not have peace within myself.

You understand this right? When you had the A, out of anger and frustration, it didn't bring you what it promised did it?

Niether will an angry reaction born of frustration. Let him hit bottom, and pray for his rising out of the ashes.

Ok nuff Pep talk on waiting for now. Gonna leave you alone. You gotta be happy bout that huh?

You know what to do.. or at least not what to do.. for now.
Hi Guys

The magic of Plan B is starting to have an impact. I woke up today feeling a lot more peaceful and back in the driving seat. I am not there yet, but the pain seems to be quietening and feel calmer. I have always been a Plan B fan!!

Have started to get some nice things planned and am working towards getting every weekend in Jan organised with some plans. Going skiing 1 week, spa weekend with mum and weekend with girls another. Leaving 1 weekend free!

I am going to enjoy this time alone.

I really now understand the power of Plan B for me! It is important whetheri reconcile with H or not. I need to be happy on my own without needing anyone and build a full happy life without needing a man.

In the NY I will get the house on the market. I really feel that there are too many bad memories in this house. It was supposed to be our dream family home, that we renovated together, but he has had women here.

I have done a lot of work here on myself and now know that I settled for far less than I deserved pre A, I did all the work in the M and understand the reason for my terrible decision to have the A was resentment. I did try and communicate this to him many times, H just said I was nagging.

H took me for granted and that I was right before the A that he was not giving
me the time and attention I deserved. Whether he realises this or not remains to be seen. I think he may realise this, which is why he is trying to show me that he is capable. I think by spending time with other women he has started to realise the value of me.

Also, I do believe that he wants to come back, but come back on the premise that he has done nothing wrong pre and post affair. I can't do that otherwise it's never going to work.

Anyway I will think about a plan b letter, once it shows that it is having some effect.

You have not given him an updated PlanB letter? Sorry I am following quite a few threads.

This is usually done pre innitiation. This is done so there are clear cut boundries, and there are no loose ends to ramble around in your mind. This is done for your sake, not his.

Right now, without a PB letter, you guys are just having another argument that you refuse to see him-- for the time being.
Post letter I think it will sink in.

I think you are going to find out that Plan B works best when you do not think about your WH at all.
P.S. "I will think about a plan b letter, once it shows it is having some effect".

In a proper plan B, you should have no idea at all what the effects are on your spouse. Only if and when he comes out of the fog and home can you have any contact with him.
JMHO
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Anyway I will think about a plan b letter, once it shows that it is having some effect.
Well thats interesting I suppose, but hardly a clear light in the tunnel for either of you, when things are darkest, or a direction to go specific either.

Maybe its the new plan W, Plan Whatever Pops up and sounds good at the moment.


Im sorry Harm but can't you put what you would like in your marriage into words so he has something to go on? So you do too? Or do you feel that low that you still don't know yet if marriage is for you?


Otherwise is seems you have a healthy and very objective view on what happened, and its great to hear you are feeling the magic of plan B.

Someone elses take on the delayed Plan B letter Idea please. I might be wrong but doesn't the letter serve a very important purpose while thier is no contact?
Ok need to put something together as I have not done that yet.

Can I post Plan b letter to his parents house ?
Originally Posted by barbiecat
You have not given him an updated PlanB letter? Sorry I am following quite a few threads.

This is usually done pre innitiation. This is done so there are clear cut boundries, and there are no loose ends to ramble around in your mind. This is done for your sake, not his.

Right now, without a PB letter, you guys are just having another argument that you refuse to see him-- for the time being.
Post letter I think it will sink in.

I think you are going to find out that Plan B works best when you do not think about your WH at all.
P.S. "I will think about a plan b letter, once it shows it is having some effect".

In a proper plan B, you should have no idea at all what the effects are on your spouse. Only if and when he comes out of the fog and home can you have any contact with him.
JMHO

Sounds right to me
Also have decided to go and stay with my friend for awhile. I need to get away from the house it's such a trigger I need a break from it.

Guys I agree will draft a letter and post.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Ok need to put something together as I have not done that yet.

Can I post Plan b letter to his parents house ?

In your case, I would be careful so his Mom wouldn't open it.

Is there some way to put it under his wiper arm? A mutual friend? A certified letter?,(costs about $7 here in states),

How about spending some of your bigbucks on a private messenger?

I just wonder how much his Mom is effecting him in this, and she doesn't speak of you well does she?


Its a letter between you and he and very private.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Also have decided to go and stay with my friend for awhile. I need to get away from the house it's such a trigger I need a break from it.
Cool cool
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Guys I agree will draft a letter and post.

dance2

Run one by us and we will help you tweak it.


Your doing good Harm
OMG his mother is a big influenced on him and she is toxic, she wants him all to herself or with someone she can control. I hold a lot of anger for this. I actually really dislike her, I don't dislike anyone.

It really upsets me.

I could leave it underchis wiper.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
OMG his mother is a big influenced on him and she is toxic, she wants him all to herself or with someone she can control. I hold a lot of anger for this. I actually really dislike her, I don't dislike anyone.

It really upsets me.

..

Yeah I remember you talking about her in the beginning of your thread when we were talking about his IB. See that how we can help with the letter too. We are your sounding board.
Ok thank you, ahhh don't mention her! I was so serene smile

he is so controlled by her, he denies it and says I am controlled by my mother.
Ok have some Plan B questions if anyone can help out.

How do you deal with friends/family who say ditch the bum?

How do your stop yourself obssessively thinking about WH? I think about my sitch all day everyday smile

How long does it take until you find real peace without them?

What are the rules of Plan B? No fb checking ect...

How do you treat WH if you run into them?


Thank you guys!

In plan b you shouldn't know anything about his actions from phone, email, text, drive by's, or through friends or family. He should not be able to get a hold of your status either even if he looks at your facebook. Pretend he does not exist, he never did, don't talk to friends or family about him. You can tell them that you are doing this to protect yourself and don't. Want to talk about him.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/28/10 04:24 AM
Hi Harmony,

Wow, first just looking at your last few posts I fully realize that you have had a stress holiday. Second, just looking at my initial list of my new year resolutions, and I feel I need to add one. That would be to set aside funds to travel to the UK, take you to dinner, and then back home, put you over my knee and give you the hardest spanking you have had in years! That would hurt me more than it would you...even if I spanked your bare butt!!

The point is babe stop being so godamned emotional. That is not exactly MB, but what the hell! Look sweeti, I am really really wondering if he is anywhere near the worth of your concern. Char and I and our son had a great Christmas, until yesterday when she got sick - upset stomach and diarreha. So, had to help her shower to clean, clean the area, and all of that. I have to hold on to her in the shower for concern that she could fall, and she just looked at me and said to me god tom are you getting turned on again! That was the farthest thing from my mind at that moment but I kissed her breasts and well we both knew I was teasing her but she seemed to like it and she seemed to feel better about me having to help her.

Ms. Harm the question I have for you and the one you need to address is: is this the guy you would and could trust with your well-being and your heart 30 years from now. I was once your age and so was Char and we were happy, altho not w/o some strife. Point is, to get there you have to be very fortunate, you have to be honest and KNOW that your partner is as well, and you have to be independent, but a partner in the marriage circle.

Good grief Ms. Harm but take very good care of your heart,

Tom
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/28/10 05:21 AM
Ms. Harmony,

I just wanted to add that you have a special person by your side in Constant, maybe a little too philosphical for me, but if I were going thru this I would want him at my side as well.

By the way, am not watching a John Wayne movie tonight - I almost was slapped on Christmas Eve when I teased Char that we should watch 'A John Wayne Christmas'. There is no such movie, but she dislikes JW and when she realized I was teasing her it got a rise from her - like she almost threw me out on the patio in the snow. Anyway.

We did watch "Fkawless" with Michael Caine who we both really like. A good mystery film.

The Best,

Tom
Hiya Tom

Thanks for your kind words it means a lot.

I am finding peace in my life, and taken the focus off H. I have lightened up loads and starting to enjoy life again, settling into Plan B nicely.

Had a great day today. Staying at my GF place in London, we have been out all day. Got up early went for brunch, then walked along the Thames in London watching all the buskers, went to the Tate Modern then onto the National Gallery. Saw loads of famous paintings Monet, Van Gogh, Renoir and Rembrandt. Not a massive art fan but cool to see some of the originals.

Just chilling at home now watching Helen of Troy, great film, the face that
launched a 1000 ships!!

It has been nice staying at my friends rather than my house, realised that's a trigger for me.

Originally Posted by Tom2010
Ms. Harmony,

I just wanted to add that you have a special person by your side in Constant, maybe a little too philosphical for me, but if I were going thru this I would want him at my side as well

yes I know Constant has been very patient and kind and I appreciate his time.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Originally Posted by Tom2010
Ms. Harmony,

I just wanted to add that you have a special person by your side in Constant, maybe a little too philosphical for me, but if I were going thru this I would want him at my side as well

yes I know Constant has been very patient and kind and I appreciate his time.

Constant is a blessing to anyone he touches, and what more, the more I read from him, the more it seems to me that he has dedicated healing from his pain to being just that; a blessing in the lives of those whom he can reach.
When I went to the National in the eighties, the one painting I found most fascinating was this one.

Saint Sebastian
I didn't see that one! Very good though, I like it.

My favourite happened to be some Renoir paintings, although I did love some of the Monets, especially Japanese Gardens.

I am going to try and get a trip in Spring to Paris to see the Lourve, haapens to be one of my favourite cities and I can pretend I am in Da Vinci code smile
Harmony,

So what is your plan for the New Year? I don't mean the night, I mean for this coming year. Plans don't always work out, but they make a good starting point for guiding your decisions and how you would like your life to go.

It does sound as if you are now doing much better and that is good to see/hear.

Look forward to your response.

JL
Originally Posted by Tom2010
Ms. Harmony,

I just wanted to add that you have a special person by your side in Constant, maybe a little too philosphical for me, but if I were going thru this I would want him at my side as well....

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
...yes I know Constant has been very patient and kind and I appreciate his time.

Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
..Constant is a blessing to anyone he touches, and what more, the more I read from him, the more it seems to me that he has dedicated healing from his pain to being just that; a blessing in the lives of those whom he can reach.

In my best "Goofy" impression..."Gawrsh!!..Aw shucks fellers" dance2

When we lose someone we love, when they turn into an alien, when we are rejected and used and abused or make such seriuos mistakes we can't forgive ourselves because we are still taking ourselves seriuosly. The worst thing is the lonliness.

I get as much from you all as I can ever give. This place, what it stands for, and the people in it have been a lifesaver for me. Without it I would not have anywhere to fellowship with the truth and my own convictions on love and human behavior.

I have allways been someone who needs to understand why. Someone made a comment about someone else that they were a "why" person in a thread. I guess that describes me too, but in many ways it has bit me in the butt, because sometimes you just gotta trust that things are the way they are, and you might not be able to change them. But I am just to much of a PITA to not try, and to find out why.

This has gotten me in trouble for sure in my life. Asking the teacher lots of questions, challanging the shop steward in the closed shop union job, questioning the authority why. Maybe that why I am so philosophical Tom, and sometimes over think and put things under a microscope, and even lose objectivity because of that. I think the serenity prayer even is a challange.

" God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the Strength to change the things I can..
And the Wisdom to know the difference"

The wisdom is the tough part, and I am disposed to taking a beating before I learn, stubborn fool that I am.

Believe me I say again that this place and my rambleings help me as much as they might help others see life differently and from other perspectives. If God didn't want us to be safe, he wouldn't have given us the examples found in the bible to show us where we could go wrong, or where others had done the same, and we are not alone in the human condition. What kind of person would I be if I did not point out the pitfalls or comfort where I could others?

As I process my blindness, mistakes, and selfish feeling sorry for myself I also am coming to the realization that this is part of life, and the best thing I can do is help others avoid whatever crap I have fallen into before, and encourage them there is a way back, out, around, or over what they must go THROUGH, in what is the most important and spiritual bonding they will ever have in thier life with another human being.

I think a lot of us would wish we never went to some of the places we did and "ignorance" of them would have been truly "bliss"

I am healed by you all also, and your kind words have caused me to hurt my arm trying to pat myself on the back, but "thats my story and I'm stickin to it". "Aw shucks and gawrsh". Keep prayin for me if your the prayin type, I'm still a kid tryin to learn.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Harmony,

So what is your plan for the New Year? I don't mean the night, I mean for this coming year. Plans don't always work out, but they make a good starting point for guiding your decisions and how you would like your life to go.

It does sound as if you are now doing much better and that is good to see/hear.

Look forward to your response.

JL
Yes back on point, how is your plan B letter coming along?
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Harmony,

So what is your plan for the New Year? I don't mean the night, I mean for this coming year. Plans don't always work out, but they make a good starting point for guiding your decisions and how you would like your life to go.

It does sound as if you are now doing much better and that is good to see/hear.

Look forward to your response.

JL


Hi JL

Good to hear from you, I hope you enjoyed the holidays.

I am doing much better, managed to get things under control. I was very upset Christmas morning but I needed to get things out! I haven't had a good cry in a long while.

I do feel a strong sense of rejection from my H, but I guess he needs this time alone also. He has checked out of the M, when I spent some time with him when my Dad passed away, he talked about us both using this time alone to work out what we want, that he is scared that if he comes back I am going to give him hell for his treatment. I believe it is less about my A nowe, but more about how he has treated me, I guess it is going to be down if he is willing to be honest with himself, how he has treated me and if he is willing to deal with that. Also, for him to stant upto his mother and brother who would be very anti us reconciling, time to put his big pants on or not. H also seems adamant that he has nothing to feel bad for, that anything after my A was irrelevant. H told me I needed to sort myself out, and when I have then to get back in contact with him! He told me that I needed to show a softer side to myself and not be so needy! Everything he says leaves me confused. Softer? Too needy? We have practially lived appart for the last 8 months and I have mainly let him get on with it! He also told me that he loves me and that it would be so much easier if he didn't. He also said that the risk of our separation is that we both coulod meet someone else and that he would hate it if I did. I told him I am not remotely interested in anyone else. Anyway I don't want to think about him, it leaves me in a spin.

My main plan for this year is to find some happiness, peace and joy in my life, I have had such an awful year. Yes I have grown and learnt so much in 2010 but now I want to live and enjoy life. Especially with my father passing away shows you how precious life is.

It is difficult to plan for the year, but I have had a go;

* Stick to Plan B, unless my H through actions can show a change in perspective, thoughts and approach to M.
* In Feb, unless my H can show a change, file for D.
* Expand my circle of friends
* Only spend time with people who are positive to be around
* Have some exciting trips planned
* Learnt to be happy on my own without a man
* Look after myself, by not smoking, excercising, sleeping and eating well.
* Treat others with respect, kindness and empathy
* Sell my house - as whatever happens with H I won't want to live here

How does that look? It feels a bit bland.

Harmony.
Those are great goals to begin with.
PB usually lasts more than a few weeks, I think.

Hi Harmony,
So glad to hear some calm in your words this morning........The New year is always a good time to give yourself some goals to live by..........
8 months is a fair bit of time to live apart and make some decisions about your life.
I would send your husband a Plan B letter and then go on and live your life to the fullest, get the bucket list out and start checking off some of the things you have wanted to do...
Keep an open mind, meet new people and maybe go in directions you wouldn't normally, sometimes doing something different opens up possiblities you wouldn't have thought your life would have.........
I would start with working hard, exercising and exploring life........
If you enjoy those 3 things life will be full of accomplishment and good health, take the time to see the world and life differently.......unstick yourself........
You will know after some time has passed if the life you are leaving is worth staying in..............
There is no rush for a final decision..........
Time heals all and it gives you time to understand what Harmony needs and wants..................
Posted By: Meggin Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/29/10 03:02 PM
So, sweet Harmony, how far have you run today? wink
Thanks Jessi - this is what I intend to do. I think H is doing the same, finding out about life without me and if I am worth the return, probably not!

All,

Here is my Plan B letter - would appreciate some thoughts...

DH,

I want to tell you how much I truly love you and how sorry I am for creating this mess we are in. It is the worst decision I have ever made, and one that I will always regret for the rest of my life. I know I put you through incredible pain, both through the affair, treatment of you and lies. I am ashamed of my behavior.

I honestly believe that it was a self destructive cry for help rather than a love affair. I have realised that I have self destructive coping skills that surface when I am stressed, depressed or unhappy. The stressful new job, the house move, the house building, your business finance issues, the wedding, the fertility problems, Dads cancer, Emma�s breakdown, inability to please you, all took its toll and I did not know how to cope.

In the past 6 months, which has been very tough I have used this time to work on me and implement new coping tools, as this would have been prime time for me to get self destructive, but I have made it on my own and learnt to cope and be strong without doing anything I am ashamed of.

I take full responsibility for the position we are in, but I cannot take responsibility for some of the actions and decisions you have taken since. Some of those actions have been very painful and caused me many sleepless nights, pain, nightmares, tears and anxiety.

I have learnt that in order to receive forgiveness I need to give it too. I do not want to have a pissing contest of who hurt each other more, or whose decision was worse than the other it is a waste of time.

What I do want to do is apply new principles from the ground up, it�s what I have been waiting for for 8 months�..but I cannot build a marriage alone.

I still believe we can have a wonderful marriage one day if we truly made a DOUBLE effort at it with both of us. If you choose not to be with me, then I will also promise that we can end this marriage gracefully.

I truly love you H, and I want to have a happy fun life, doing all the amazing things we have talked about, you know what I mean. I want to do it with YOU, I really believe in you.

However, until we are both committed I have asked for no contact as it is too painful. I hope you understand. If you need anything from the house or me, please contact sis.

I love you dearly, Harmony.
Harmony,
I think this sounds good, but I didn't use a Plan B letter, I'm sure one of the vets will read and make suggestions for you.........
You have come a long way in your emotional thinking and I think you must be proud of the changes you have made inside.........
You are now in a position now to tackle anything that comes your way.......You have your own personal boundaries that you can live with and expect from others....
You will never be ashamed of anything you ever do again...........You have learned what to expect from others in terms of respect........You have learned what honesty and trust is all about............I think you are ready to live life peacefully and honestly I can't wait myself to hear all the good things coming to you Harmony..............Life is a wonderful thing if you allow yourself to enjoy it, from the little things to the big pieces of life.......it's all wonderful..............
don't get me wrong though, the way I feel about him at the moment I don't really want to give him a Plan B letter.

My prefered letter would be I thank my lucky stars I found your true colours now whilst you smirked watching me in the worst pain imaginable. Good riddance.
Tried to bump it...

try this.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1642447
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
don't get me wrong though, the way I feel about him at the moment I don't really want to give him a Plan B letter.

My prefered letter would be I thank my lucky stars I found your true colours now whilst you smirked watching me in the worst pain imaginable. Good riddance.

Maybe it's his true colors, or maybe he is just dumb enough to let his emotions run the show.

In intention, I view an RA as even more cruel than an A - because - in cases like yours - one may do it purposely to inflict pain. The operative term is may. They may also do it to prove that they can walk away, find someone new, and be alright. Or, they might fall into it accidentally as they seek support.

Additionally, as you sometimes state yourself, the WS who is now a WS/BS will often view themselves as "deserving" this treatment of an RA. Not in any way, form, or fashion true... but, that's how you feel. FWW has stated to me several times that sometimes she wishes I would engage in an RA. I slap her with a DJ, and tell her she's nuts.


Harmony, you two have dished copious amounts of pain and confusion onto each other. I think that's why I'm kind of drawn to watch you.

One minute, you post how you are done, and how cruel and horrible he is... then an hour later, you post about how much you love him, and how you want to have the chance to be happy with him.

Thankfully, you are posting these wishy-washy thoughts, and not acting upon them. As you now know, once a thought or feeling is acted upon, that action cannot be retracted.

Keep that in mind.

Find peace - through it maybe he can find peace as well.

I can tell you that your Plan B letter misted me up this morning.
Hi HHH

Good post.

Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
Maybe it's his true colors, or maybe he is just dumb enough to let his emotions run the show.


Not sure, tired of mindreading smile

Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
In intention, I view an RA as even more cruel than an A - because - in cases like yours - one may do it purposely to inflict pain. The operative term is may. They may also do it to prove that they can walk away, find someone new, and be alright. Or, they might fall into it accidentally as they seek support.

I can tell you that is a bit of all factors, to prove he is attractive, feed his ego, to see if he can be happy with someone else and as emotional support, an ear if you like.

Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
Additionally, as you sometimes state yourself, the WS who is now a WS/BS will often view themselves as "deserving" this treatment of an RA. Not in any way, form, or fashion true... but, that's how you feel. FWW has stated to me several times that sometimes she wishes I would engage in an RA. I slap her with a DJ, and tell her she's nuts.


Its horrendous, because you not only have the pain of your affair that created the mess, the pain you caused your H, you also have the pain of their affairs to endure.

Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
One minute, you post how you are done, and how cruel and horrible he is... then an hour later, you post about how much you love him, and how you want to have the chance to be happy with him.

Thankfully, you are posting these wishy-washy thoughts, and not acting upon them. As you now know, once a thought or feeling is acted upon, that action cannot be retracted.


I use the board to post the thoughts, as I am sometimes in conflict about the M. The conflict being, I love him very much HOWEVER do I want to spend my life who wants to 'make their spouse pay' to the point they are a wreck on the floor gasping for air? I had not seen this side to him in the 9 years I have known him. Here being the conflict. However, we are all capable of making bad decisions and changing, hence wanting to give it a little time.

Thanks for checking in!
I'm not innocent. I "want to make her pay."

Not by having an RA, though.

The ultimate revenge is happiness, success, and health - with or without her.
OK - could do with some advice please.

I have listed on a ski forum, to join a group or go with another female over NY. I have swapped a number of emails with another girl called Alex, I have spoken to her on the phone and she seems really nice, she is a lecturer at Uni in London. We are both at a loose end and want to go skiing for the NY.

It is quite random, but she seems really nice, and I get to go skiing for a few days, TOMORROW!!

I am a bit worried that it is a bit soon after my Dad died and with my H situation.

Either that or I will just really be hanging around for the next 5 days, probably just having the odd dinner or lunch with friends and family.

What do you think?
Posted By: reading Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/29/10 07:01 PM
Go.

It will distract you from both your Dad's death and your H.

You will meet new people, get exercise, change of scenery and not be hanging and moping.

Go.
Quote
What do you think?
As long as it's NY and not Maine - cables are snapping on ski lifts up there! cool
OMG!! this is really random but I love it!!

We are just checking out if we can get accomodation or not, then we will book the flights.

Thanks Guys! Beats hanging around Pompey in the mist

Hope I get to go smile
Harmony's skiing. Meggin is (allegedly) grin running. Guess I'd better take the last slice of pumpkin pie... flirt
God I have to find those icons cause I am rolling around the floor laughing here....

I need Meggins running evidence, a running pic please smile


Posted By: reading Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/29/10 07:23 PM
I walked today. Really fast for a half hour.

Now, laying on my bed with my laptop.

Think I will take up bike riding (no snow in my part of the world).

Hope you get your trip in Harmony!
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
God I have to find those icons cause I am rolling around the floor laughing here....

I need Meggins running evidence, a running pic please smile
OMG! I googled 'Meggin running photo' and here's what came up!
rotflmao
[Linked Image from z.about.com]
30 mins power walk? Pretty impressive.

Where is your part of the world, really don't want to know if it is somewhere nice and hot....its freezing in Portsmouth.

Just looking at accomodation, hope it happens too...
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
God I have to find those icons cause I am rolling around the floor laughing here....

I need Meggins running evidence, a running pic please smile
OMG! I googled 'Meggin running photo' and here's what came up!
rotflmao
[Linked Image from z.about.com]


MARITAL BLISS - you have completely and utterly lost the plot!!
Quote
MARITAL BLISS - you have completely and utterly lost the plot!!
Yeah, but it's better than losing my mind! LOL grin
Posted By: Meggin Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/29/10 07:40 PM
Hey! I leave you guys alone for a bit and look what happens!

Hmmm--wonder how that pic missed my many attempts to quash it on the web. You've destroyed my secret real identity!

rotflmao
GASP! And THEN guess what I googled...you had to know it was coming...
[Linked Image from e-forwards.com]
Yep, there's our Harmony, saving money on renting ski wear!
Originally Posted by Meggin
Hey! I leave you guys alone for a bit and look what happens!

Hmmm--wonder how that pic missed my many attempts to quash it on the web. You've destroyed my secret real identity!

rotflmao
I'm still puzzling over the random little stuffed dog... grin
Posted By: Meggin Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/29/10 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by Meggin
Hey! I leave you guys alone for a bit and look what happens!

Hmmm--wonder how that pic missed my many attempts to quash it on the web. You've destroyed my secret real identity!

rotflmao
I'm still puzzling over the random little stuffed dog... grin


It was a gift from an admirer. wink
yeah you found my pic....I was looking a little chunky that year....my butt could so with a bit more work...sigh...

stuffed dog got me too....lucky masdog?
Posted By: Meggin Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/29/10 07:49 PM
Harmony, you look awesome!

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
yeah you found my pic....I was looking a little chunky that year....my butt could so with a bit more work...sigh...
Yeah, same here. It's tough to stay in shape. BRB, gotta wash the pumpkin pie sticky off my hands...
pumpkin pie.........?

twoxfour

a moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
pumpkin pie.........?

twoxfour

a moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips
SOMEONE found the icons! laugh
Posted By: reading Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/29/10 08:05 PM
Pumpkin is a vegetable. She has to get her five servings per day of fruits and veggies.
hurray hurray hurray hurray

someone did!
Harmony as found the icons. Oh Boy! folks we are in trouble now. MrRollieEyes

Go skiing Harmony, the exercise will be good for you and allow you to clear your mind. But, please wear a bit more, those ice burns are tough to heal from. naughty

JL
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/30/10 12:09 AM
Marital...

If the Green Bay Packers could have a wide receiver that looked like that this coming Sunday in the important game with the Chicago Bears, all eleven of the Bears' defensive players would be converging on that receiver and leave the other three Green Bay receivers wide open for an easy TD pass! In addition, one of the Bears' defensive players would get a penalty for holding!

Just could not resist...anyway...

Ms. Harmony, the getaway ski trip sounds awsome for you and for your psyche right now. If I were you and could do it I would, and not look back.

It sounds now like you are operating in your Plan B one day at a time, which is good. The one day at a time is for you and not anyone else. Just enjoy, renew yourself, and a very Happy New Year to you!!

By the way, I have a very special date for New Year's Eve- sort of unexpected. Nothing like a skiiing trip or winter vacation, but a dinner out. She called me last night and I couldn't resist. It just sort of happened. I know who she is - she's about my age, and 5'4", redhair, and wow... her eyes. Some women really know how to wear make-up to highlight their best features. Yea Ms. Harmony, I can't resist kidding you - Char and I are going out New Year's. Had not planned to because spent lots of money for Christmas, but what the hell! So, now am going to have to probably eat tune out of the can for the next three weeks to take her out for our 42nd anniversary toward the end of January...*S*

Take care Ms. Harm,

Tom
Guys

Just popping in here to say what a scumbag OM was. I have been doing a lot of thinking about how far I have come and realise that OM claimed he was unhappy with his GF for about 3 years prior to meeting me, and he used me as an exscuse to get out of the relationship. OM never told his GF about me, but used it for himself to jumpship.

Also, when I was at work before anything happened with him and I his GF use to call and ask him what he wanted for dinner and he spoke to her so rudely, almost trying to make a point to me, yes I have a GF but could not give a monkeys toss about her! What a charmer!

He also use to claim that he did her a favour by staying with her as she had lots of stressful things to cope with. How nice of him!

Oh and how could I be so stupid? Yuk, it was gross.

Puking icon at the ready......




Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Guys

Just popping in here to say what a scumbag OM was. I have been doing a lot of thinking about how far I have come and realise that OM claimed he was unhappy with his GF for about 3 years prior to meeting me, and he used me as an exscuse to get out of the relationship. OM never told his GF about me, but used it for himself to jumpship.

Also, when I was at work before anything happened with him and I his GF use to call and ask him what he wanted for dinner and he spoke to her so rudely, almost trying to make a point to me, yes I have a GF but could not give a monkeys toss about her! What a charmer!

He also use to claim that he did her a favour by staying with her as she had lots of stressful things to cope with. How nice of him!

Oh and how could I be so stupid? Yuk, it was gross.

Puking icon at the ready......
Girl, you are on board. Nice.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Guys

Just popping in here to say what a scumbag OM was. I have been doing a lot of thinking about how far I have come and realise that OM claimed he was unhappy with his GF for about 3 years prior to meeting me, and he used me as an exscuse to get out of the relationship. OM never told his GF about me, but used it for himself to jumpship.

Also, when I was at work before anything happened with him and I his GF use to call and ask him what he wanted for dinner and he spoke to her so rudely, almost trying to make a point to me, yes I have a GF but could not give a monkeys toss about her! What a charmer!

He also use to claim that he did her a favour by staying with her as she had lots of stressful things to cope with. How nice of him!

Oh and how could I be so stupid? Yuk, it was gross.

Puking icon at the ready......

rotflmao

I think it's all card-carrying behavior for the home-wrecker's club.
Hey Harm just stoppin in quick to say Hi....


How far did you run today? Lol

Gotts lot of stuff goin on and I thought I would wait and let the pros look over the plan B letter but I did have a question.

Do you think you need a "bullet list" of requirements before you felt safe with reconciliation?

Besides that I think it is very heartfelt. More later on it.

Gotta go, Seeya soon.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
What do you think?
As long as it's NY and not Maine - cables are snapping on ski lifts up there! cool

Lol, I was confused at first When Harm used NY as short for New Year. Shes in Jolly old UK WHot?

Cherio Old bean
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Guys

Just popping in here to say what a scumbag OM was. I have been doing a lot of thinking about how far I have come and realise that OM claimed he was unhappy with his GF for about 3 years prior to meeting me, and he used me as an exscuse to get out of the relationship. OM never told his GF about me, but used it for himself to jumpship.

Also, when I was at work before anything happened with him and I his GF use to call and ask him what he wanted for dinner and he spoke to her so rudely, almost trying to make a point to me, yes I have a GF but could not give a monkeys toss about her! What a charmer!

He also use to claim that he did her a favour by staying with her as she had lots of stressful things to cope with. How nice of him!

Oh and how could I be so stupid? Yuk, it was gross.

Puking icon at the ready......

Finally! smile

You can proudly send this year away... and step to the new one!
I will DEFINETLY not be sad to see the back of this year.

Redirected a load of post that has come to the house, to H mums house. First time I have started doing that. Sends a strong message.
Originally Posted by Tom2010
By the way, I have a very special date for New Year's Eve- sort of unexpected. Nothing like a skiiing trip or winter vacation, but a dinner out. She called me last night and I couldn't resist. It just sort of happened. I know who she is - she's about my age, and 5'4", redhair, and wow... her eyes. Some women really know how to wear make-up to highlight their best features. Yea Ms. Harmony, I can't resist kidding you - Char and I are going out New Year's. Had not planned to because spent lots of money for Christmas, but what the hell! So, now am going to have to probably eat tune out of the can for the next three weeks to take her out for our 42nd anniversary toward the end of January...*S*


Enjoy your date Tom, sounds like the perfect NY to me! Make sure you take her somewhere nice, us girls like to be spoiled you know, no burger joints!!

Constant old bean, have you checked out my Plan B letter yet? I think I need to add some reconcile T&Cs this is what I had in mind;

* Be nice to your wife all times not just when you have done something wrong
* Not allowed to sleep with OW
* 5 years of counselling
* Cut apron strings from mommy
* Anger mgmt classes
* At least 1 compliment a year

Sorry I just can't help it, I am only venting grin

I have read a lot of Dorrys posts today, it is a shame she is not here anymore. I could have done with some of her advice.

I really liken my situation to hers, what led to my A, how her H reacted, how she had to do a lot of work on herself...

I have come to the conclusion, that I never really understood men that well. I am learning though, I have spent some time reading on the species smile

I am so sad at the situation my H and I find ourselves in and I guess now is as good a time as any to ask if there is any sign of hope?

I guess I find it difficult to enforce T&CS to a reconciliation, if he should ever wish to do so. After all, I was the one that created this mess, my A was very abusive. I behaved appallingly towards him, for example;

* I kept the A a secret from him, mainly because I was a coward, but also telling him would mean that I would probably lose him.
* I left our home, to continue the A and to escape the reality of what I had done
* I went on a business trip and hardly contacted my H
* I went to see a MC with my H, at my suggestion, but never confessed the affair
* H read emails between OM and I, talking about sexual acts and how strong our feelings were. This one is a bit weird as about 3 weeks after the A started with OM, I broke down crying saying I have made a big mistake and I love my H very much. My h read those ones also.

Even before the A, I was not the best wife and my H mentions many things that he was unhappy about. Now they seem quite small fry in relation to the A! However, I did do things that did not take his feelings into consideration.

Hence I find it difficult to list terms and conditions to reconcile. Any thoughts?

Like Dorry, I suppose I made a MASSIVE assumption that my H just did not love me that much, as he did not say so. One of the things that led to the A, well H is not that bothered he doesn't want to spend time me, this other guy does! Yuk

However, H way of showing he loved me was through a different way, it was through his work/job/house building....H never really said it through words, unless in a text or card, he struggled to tell me.

At least I understand things better now.






I think I have gotten a little addicted to the MB site, I have learnt so much here.

I keep meaning to pull away but can't.

Do I post a new thread how to cure MB site addiction?
Posted By: Meggin Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/30/10 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Like Dorry, I suppose I made a MASSIVE assumption that my H just did not love me that much, as he did not say so. One of the things that led to the A, well H is not that bothered he doesn't want to spend time me, this other guy does! Yuk

Harmony, my WH also convinced himself that I did not love him. I've never understood this and he remains perplexed whenever I tell him that I do still love him. It must be a special kind of wayward fog babble to deny what is so obvious to the rest of the world.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I think I have gotten a little addicted to the MB site, I have learnt so much here.

I keep meaning to pull away but can't.

Do I post a new thread how to cure MB site addiction?
I, for one, need that thread! It's become a compulsion to read posts, post to my own thread, and seek validation here. I view it as a necessary support, but one that I need to cut back on when I go back to work next week. I need to concentrate on healing Meggin and this place sometimes inflames my hurts, whether through processing my own life or through reading about others' successes and failures in this awful club no one wanted to join.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I think I have gotten a little addicted to the MB site, I have learnt so much here.

I keep meaning to pull away but can't.

Do I post a new thread how to cure MB site addiction?
It's a good addiction, Harmony wink Think 'AA for Waywards and Their Loved Ones'
Harmony,

I would not post a new thread if I were you. This is your history and it allows folks to follow it easier. As for addictions? Nonsense! MrRollieEyes There is no such thing says the guy that has been here 11 years. smile

As your life stabilizes you will find your need to be here less or you will change roles and become someone who helps others, which is a very good addiction to have as long as it does not short circuit your life.

As for us guys, ask and we will answer. Of course you can expect many different answers but it seems to me you are continuing to gain insight into what really went on during all of this.

At some point your H might want to hear what you have truly learned about yourself, your perspectives about him, and your perspectives on marriage. Not now though as you are in plan B.

Have a great NEW YEAR.

JL
Nah, I am gonna stay addicted to this place.

Like food, which I am addicted to too and need the right stuff, friends and good advice is a good addictive diet.

As long as you stay away from the fatty emotional highs, and the poisons of poor choices, you will be lean and mean in no time.

By the way, How many miles today?

Lol bbl gotta run
JL

I have some questions already if that's ok!

Did I do the right thing doing Plan B?

Do you think my H may use this time to reflect on the situation?

When should I Break Plan B?

Thank you, Harmony
Harmony,

You asked
Quote
Did I do the right thing doing Plan B?

Do you think my H may use this time to reflect on the situation?

When should I Break Plan B?

I'll do my best to offer my thoughts, but the decisions are yours.

Did you do the right thing going to plan B? You seem to be getting out of the emotional mess you found yourself in and you are starting to analyze things. Could you have done that within the drama of your H being there and not being there?

I don't think so. I knew and know that your intentions were/are good now, but you were too much of an emotional mess to handle the growth you needed, your Father's situation, and your H's actions all at once, so yes I think it was the right thing.

Harmony, I don't have a clue about your H. I have never spoken to the man. One can hope but plan B is not about him doing or not doing anything really, it is about you, about preserving love for someone and giving a situation time, ending the affair for one thing. I hope he reflects on things, but who is to know.

When should you break plan B? Interesting question, if you sent him a plan B letter, it should have stated what conditions you needed met to consider contact with him again. If you did this then the time to break plan B is when he has done so. Did you give him a way to let you know? You should.

You can also break plan B if you decide on divorce, but usually you let the lawyers do the information transfer then.

But, Harmony the most important thing here is what are your goals with regard to H and your marriage. That will allow you to answer these questions in a more focussed way. Also what are your goals for yourself, this also weighs into the answers.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/31/10 01:33 AM
Harmony, you know that I always look out for what is best for you. I saw something that I just MUST post about. It was a hole in my Plan B that I have since blocked up.

See, 12.5 months after my WH left to live with OW, he still hasn't changed his address, ON ANYTHING. I did, at one time, forward his important mail to IMs. I have since decided that I was NOT going to do that anymore. I now RTS(return to sender). Whatever happens to it after I do, doesn't matter to me. smile

As far as the addiction to this site, I wouldn't say it is a bad thing. You will know when you need to pull back. Sometimes, I take mini breaks from MB. If you need to, know that we will be here.

So, what fun things are you doing tomorrow?
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/31/10 01:44 AM
Ms. Haromony and Just Learning...


I am probably going to be edited or booted for saying this JL, but jesus this site could be addicting because I think you prolong it. I think Ms. Harmony is fully capable on her own of deciding whether or not the Plan B is a good thing and if her inner feelings are correct. Life experience advice, which Constant offers, and technical advice if fine in my opinion, but day-to-day questions having her going back and forth is upsetting.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/31/10 02:14 AM
Sorry Ms. Harm for my posting my last to you, but I do not regrest posting it.

Haven't read all of your recent posts, but you were supposed to be on vacation...and racing down a ski slope in a skimpy ski suit!...*s* What happened!

Seriously, take the next few days to attempt to truely decide what is best for you, no matter your H's distractions.

Ya know what, and I honestly don't think about this that much, but I am closer to death, and you are closer to birth. When Char was here over Christmas I walked to the store to get something I forgot for the dinner. Not a long way, and of course I am John Wayne reincarnated, but was a harsh wind and tough walking. She was concerned when I got back and sat me down and simply told me in no uncertain terms not to do that again. I am not that old Ms. Harmony, but not that young that I can assume that I am John Wayne. My dad died way back in Janurary 1943 when I was six months old, and we were told by our mom that it happened because he had neglected to go to the hospital when he was having a heart attack. He died in the family car on a snowy January day trying to get home.

The point is Harm, and I am not trying to be morbid, that when you get to be my age you sort of do reflect on the people you would want with you when you are called by Christ, and you want those people to be the true ones in your life. I know where I am in my life. I sort of now wonder how your H will feel at my age if he misses this opportunity to be with you forever.

Tom
Your WH hasn't even got to the point of seeking help yet and he wont untill you give him more time in plan B

Put a bullit list of requirements in the letter you posted, and run it by us ok?

The list might be upsetting to him and seem unfair at first, but no matter what, he will see them as nessesary eventually. Don't worry we will help you tweak it.

Don't forget, twoxfour make the list reflect what you would consider the best marriage ever with the best Husband ever.dance2 A Dream marriage, don't you see thats what you can have?

Again don't worry we will help you keep it real

Post us that list pronto!! twoxfour


Then, you can have total peace in a dark B.

Then, you can set a timeline for quitting.

Then, you can take that time for you.

We will be here for the duration.

Originally Posted by Scotland
..So, what fun things are you doing tomorrow?

How many miles? Lol.

Well she might be skiing in NY, or is it Maine? rotflmao
Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 12/31/10 04:38 AM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
However, H way of showing he loved me was through a different way, it was through his work/job/house building....H never really said it through words, unless in a text or card, he struggled to tell me.

This is so true Harmony of my H as well. I am reminded of a quote I heard: �Just because somebody doesn't love you the way you want them to doesn't mean they don't love you with everything they got�. So true, so true.

Your funny, saying you don't understand men that well...well...do you think most of the women on this board do? Men always say women are so complicated. HARDLY!!! Difficult, maybe, but complicated...NEVER. laugh

There's alway hope, Harmony. Hope is what gets us out of bed in the morning. "I HOPE I can get through this day" and we do. Hope is what keeps us from quitting right now and walking away and throwing in the towel.

Don't throw in the towel just yet Harmony. If YOU still have hope...then there's a chance.
Harmony, you're doing great:-) I'm posting under my H's alias, but we both wish that the strenght you seem to have found lately will keep growing.

As for the addiction, this is just one and only of my addictions I feel good about...

Niitse
Morning All,

MB addict here.

Thanks for your posts, I could not get on the ski trip for NYE, no room at the inn, so I am staying put. Shame I was looking forward to wearing my new 'outfit'!! Although I am arranging to go at the end of the month with my 'online friend' and also going on the 11th with some GFs for a week in France.

I have a great Jan planned and looking forward to getting back to work and into a routine. I never thought I would say that!

Anyway, as usual with spare time have been doing more thinking. crazy

I have just read 'The 5 Primary Love Languages' which is really good. I have thought back a lot to how things were before the A, and according to the book I wasn't that bad at all and met many of his needs.. I was very supportive wife and encouraged H to start his business and helped him do it, and encouraged him to take up golf again and even played with him a few times. I also got really excited and creative about his business which were very top ENs for H. I have learnt that H important needs are Domestic support and Admiration. Although that could be a DJ, as I haven't heard that from him blush

There were many things I did do that weren't so good, mostly love busters like not taking his feelings into consideration before planning something, making DJs and having angry outbursts. However, my H said that he was happy before the A and could not understand why I did it, therefore I was meeting the majority of his ENs.

My H showed me his love in ways I did not understand. He did not know the way to show me love the way I needed it, but I did not appreciate his WAYS of showing me love. I have worked out that my biggest EN is recreational companionship. I was never angry with H for playing golf or working late, I just wanted him to put as much effort into those other activities into ME. I did not understand if he could arrange a golf day out, then he could surely arrange a day out with me...This was the start of the downward spiral, if he didn't want to be with me or spend time with me then he didn't really love me at all. Yes a huge big DJ, I know.

Anyway I guess I understand more about the dynamics of a relationship now, which explains why I always knew I loved him but didn't feel satisfied at all times.

Something I donn't understand is when he found out about the A, he said he was so happy with his life and was annoyed at me for destroying it, then in time he started to think of all the things I did wrong before the A. That confuses me.

The things H mentioned he was unhappy about pre A and my thoughts are;


1. Going away for the weekend after our wedding with my mother and brother. (I wanted to go on honeymoon straight after the wedding but H said it was too expensive and he went back to work after the wedding so I took the time to spend with my bro and mother)

2. Inviting his mother for Xmas late Nov, then early Dec saying we had invited too many people and could they come for the evening? (this was the worst thing I ever did and I admit this, it was a passive aggressive response on my behalf to the way she had treated me and was my attempt and stamping control - whoops).

3. Was reluctant when H first mentioned getting married. My H wanted to propose to me in Venice, I wasn't sure about M never have been, was scarred by my parents divorce, this and some of the red flags in our r'ship made me uneasy. I knew I loved him but had doubts, not just about him, but about me! Looks like I was right frown He was also unhappy because he wanted to get married straight after the proposal and I wanted to wait a while.

4. I broke up with him early in the r'ship about after 12 months together. We split up about about 6 weeks. I found out that my exBF of 7 years had got his GF pregnant, I got very upset and ran to my mother almost had some like breakdown about it, it brought up a lot of hidden feelings about an abortion I had in my early 20s, i did not know whow to deal with it and broke things off with my H as it didn't feel right crying over an ex's baby with someone new. I thought I wasn't ready. H was very upset. I think this made him very insecure and left a taint on our rship for a long time. When I had the A, he said he had only just forgiven me for that.

5. After about 1.5 half together I was going to buy a flat on my own, he gave me an ultimatum saying that of i did not buy the place with him then we might aswell split up. He said his mother thought it was odd.

Thinking all these things through, H never seemed to be bothered about them at the time, sometimes I wander does his Mmother have more effect on him than I realise. I wander if she is what we call over here a complete chit stirrer, and plants many seeds of doubt in his head. In fact this whole thing could be a decider for him, does he believe what his mother says or does he believe me? He did seem to spend an awful amount of time trying to prove to her my 'worth'. Which ofcourse was completely pointless. Am I ever going to be able to 'win' against her? How ddo I put that in the Plan B letter?

Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading.
lol Harmony, don't feel bad about the MB addiction...Niitse is right, it is an addiction we can at least feel good about! smile So you're in good company!

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I have just read 'The 5 Primary Love Languages' which is really good.

You must be talking about Chapman's book - it is a very good book and really helped me to understand how people express love differently.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
There were many things I did do that weren't so good, mostly love busters like not taking his feelings into consideration before planning something, making DJs and having angry outbursts. However, my H said that he was happy before the A and could not understand why I did it, therefore I was meeting the majority of his ENs.

My H was the same way. He was happy, thought everything was going fine. In my case, it was because I was lousy at communicating my needs to him. I didn't know how to articulate how I felt other than vague statements of how I wasn't "happy," and his response was usually along the lines of "It's not my job to make you happy." What neither of us understood is that yes, happiness has to come from within, but our jobs as husband and wife were to meet each other's needs.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
My H showed me his love in ways I did not understand. He did not know the way to show me love the way I needed it, but I did not appreciate his WAYS of showing me love. I have worked out that my biggest EN is recreational companionship. I was never angry with H for playing golf or working late, I just wanted him to put as much effort into those other activities into ME. I did not understand if he could arrange a golf day out, then he could surely arrange a day out with me...This was the start of the downward spiral, if he didn't want to be with me or spend time with me then he didn't really love me at all. Yes a huge big DJ, I know.

Exactly what I have learned. My H showed me love in ways he understood...by being a devoted father to the girls; by going to work every day (and only in the last year have I learned how unhappy he was with his job - yet he got up every morning and went because he was driven to provide for us); by doing things around the house (he can really do anything, and whatever he does he wants it to be perfect - like when I decided I wanted a red living room and it took him 4-5 coats of paint to get it "just right"!); cooking dinner for us almost every night; rearranging his schedule so I could stay home with the girls when DD#2 was born, and again so I could go back to work full-time.

But like you, one of my initial mistakes was thinking, "If he loved me, if he really loved me, he'd KNOW what I needed!" I felt neglected. I missed how he used to call me "beautiful." I assumed I must have stopped being beautiful to him. I thought since he didn't want to touch me, he didn't love me. But many times his reluctance to touch me was because I was reacting to him disrespectfully (sidebar - check out "Love and Respect" for a really insightful read).

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Anyway I guess I understand more about the dynamics of a relationship now, which explains why I always knew I loved him but didn't feel satisfied at all times.

Me too. On my end, I'm just hoping that the knowledge did not come too little, too late to save my M.

Harmony, all the other "stuff," that your H now said he was unhappy about, well, it could be rewriting history or it could just be a manifestation of poor communication between the two of you. There were times that my disrespectful behavior did bother my H, but he never told me about it. Missed opportunities for O&H and growth together, I suppose.

Not much advice from me, I'm afraid, but just letting you know I hear you, girl! Take care and enjoy your ski trip (although I would advise wearing sunscreen with that outfit - you know the sun reflects off of the snow and that may intensify the UV rays...) wink
LOng posts? Yeah I hate that.. rotflmao
Tom,

I read you post to me and frankly I cannot figure out what you are saying or what your problem is with my advice. care to clarify you thoughts for me?

JL
How about that plan B rewrite letter?

I am nervous about that I admit.

The last one was not that good if you remember, and we never had a chance to go over it. Also, you gave it to him and he crumbled it up and left it.

If it was a good letter, and had a simple plan for BOTH of you to follow, then I would just say copy it and give it to him again.

But it was weak, and you didn't/couldn't stay dark because of circumstances. So its not gonna work Harmony, because you sre not doing it.


Someone asked you if you were going for "Plan resentmet" I am saying that you are heading that way if you don't give him a clear option, and just stay dark with no plan on reconciliation.

What do you believe? That this will just go away? That you don't need to give your dreams of a good marriage a plan? Do you think that you will find someone who doesn't have issues to deal with? Thats fantasy twoxfour

Right now you are dark, seeing the problems and not appling the solution. Justifing your reasons to leave, and building up the fears because you saw the mistakes. There will be no hope of reconciliation if he doesn't have a clear and uncomplicated list of requiremernts, and THAT, you know, was part of your communication problem. This is on you Harm, and part of the work of marriage.

Having hope will be part of believing there is a way to make this a dream marrige, one you both want and can work together on. But seeing the problems and talking about them will not help you if you don't have a solution. Thats the wisdom of DRH, and what MB and his counsel is about. You know this right? Have you read about his experience as a marrige counsellor?

Concentrate on a solution, and put it clearly on paper so WH has something to go on, then be dark and search yourself. No fair trying to understand it all and keep him in the dark. He has to be part of the solution also. Anything else is controlling as you ask him to just do what you say and trust you again.

Get that letter up and let us see it, help you tweak it, so he has something to go on. Unless you just want us to help you justify leaving him. Believe me unless there is violence or he stops his slow return to reality, I won't agree you should leave until you have given him a clear picture of what you want and expect. Then he has it on paper while you stay dark.

Just telling you like it is Harm, meant to help you focus on a future, not the past. happynewyr
I will tell you from experience OK?

My late wife was a wonderful woman. Everybody loved her. She had been engaged 7 times before she met me. She did a lot of amazing things for many people in her life.

But she had one problem, she had no handle on drinking or whay it conntrolled her.

Trying to fix all the reasons she said she drank just was a waste of time.

Ignoring the solution and insisting she get treatment just put off the inevitable that she would relapse.

Why and what was her problem, but without insisting she get treatment long ago I gave in to my own ego that I was a solution. Thats the fantasy I see you heading for without a plan and the humility to follow it.

Its the same for everyone, with any problem, you must work a solutiom, not be hypnotysed by the problem and pain. Like scotty says in her sigline, "Scars don't have to dictate where you are going".

You didn't ask for this challange, but if you don't fight for your marriage with everything you have, you will know it deep inside. You may try to find reasons to cover up your fear and justify quitting, but that will just be more fantasy that will hurt you again at a later date.

I tell my kids the same thing. Everybody who will listen and has not allready made up thier mind,

Your WH is lost, he needs help, is it such a surprise to you that we all need that at some time? Give him help and hope with at least a letter, not contact, that is prolonging his pain too. I don't see him as someone who is hopeless.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Tom,

I read you post to me and frankly I cannot figure out what you are saying or what your problem is with my advice. care to clarify you thoughts for me?

JL

Yeah me too Tom. What is your theory? But maybe it should be dicussed somewhere else. So we don't confuse this thread.
Ladies, don't let your actions weight too heavily on the misery.

I can tell you that I was happi-er pre-A than post, however, I was not "happy."

FWW had no idea how completely miserable I was, and had been for years, even though I had told her over and over that I was. She simply buried it under her own assumptions (DJ) and kept trucking.

Men have this problem of "if I ain't got nothin to complain about, I must be happy," and then we add in "ain't no use complainin!"

Counter-intuitive, no?

Whatever their poor actions were before, were probably fed by a denied unhappiness which they didn't vocalize, didn't know how to vocalize, or vocalized but got lost in transmission (AO/DJ).

Think back on what you have learned here; all those early relationship behaviors as you fall deeply in love, and how they fade over time due to a false belief in "unconditional love."

However, for you two, your husbands have not examined these feelings, they have not had it laid out before them so they can go "Aha! That's what happened! I felt it, but I couldn't explain it!"

And that neglect went both ways, maybe more on one side than the other, and it may have vacillated.

Again, you know why, while they don't! It was because you drift between those three states of marriage - intimacy, withdrawal, conflict. You unwittingly exhibited these behaviors over and over - one floating into withdrawal while another was in intimacy, then into conflict, and drawing the other back out.

The conditions that lead to your poor decisions may have been a pair of spouses entrenched in withdrawal, and one with a severe taker attitude and piss-poor boundaries.

YOU KNOW THESE THINGS NOW, and your husbands do not. All they know is pain and entitlement. Their takers are raging - and they don't know what to do.

You must serve as the light to lead them out!
Hiya HHH

Good post, gives me an insight into the Alien male thinking mode!

I am still hanging in here, really am angry about him going away over the New Year, also because I broke Plan B I knew he was going away New Year so all the thoughts under the sun run through my brain.

Had horrible dream last night, about H met and fallen in love with someone else a person who was so much better than me and would never have an A, and all his family were laughing at me. It was horrible!

Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
YOU KNOW THESE THINGS NOW, and your husbands do not. All they know is pain and entitlement. Their takers are raging - and they don't know what to do.

You must serve as the light to lead them out!


I am really trying to serve as the light. I am staying strong in Plan B, have not contacted him in 9 days now. I think the dreams mean I am starting to go through withdrawal I just let it wave over me.

Sometimes I don't know if I have sorrow for H or Dad. They alternate I think!

I know that if I can get through this, I can get through most things. I have read a few threads lately about FWW whose H needed 'time out' to gather thoughts then eventually came round. I suppose I am looking for more than just a change of heart from my H.

OK I am pretending to be strong a lot of the time, but everything feels so weird and different and I have not felt peace in such a long time.
Revised Plan B Letter:

DH,

Words cannot describe how sorry I am for creating this mess, if only I could turn back time things would be so different. It is the worst decision I have ever made, and one that I will always regret for the rest of my life. I know I put you through incredible pain, both through the affair, treatment of you and lies. I am ashamed of my behaviour.

I honestly believe that it was a self destructive cry for help rather than a love affair. I should have told you the truth before the A, that I was struggling, that I needed your love, support, time and attention. I thought if I had to ask for it, it meant that you didn�t love me. I have realised that I have self destructive coping skills that surface when I am faced with difficult situations. The stressful new job, the house move, the house building, in law issues, your business finance issues, the wedding, the fertility problems, Dads cancer, all took its toll and I did not know how to cope. I let someone else meet my needs to make me feel better.

In the past 6 months, which has been very tough I have used this time to work on me and implement new coping tools, as this would have been prime time for me to get self destructive, but I have made it on my own and learnt to cope and be strong without doing anything I am ashamed of.

I take full responsibility for creating the position we are in, but I cannot take responsibility for some of the actions and decisions you have taken since. Some of those actions have been very painful and caused me many sleepless nights, nightmares, tears and anxiety. I know that if there were no other women involved, then I would have tried longer to win you back, but I had to pull back for my own sanity.

I have learnt that in order to receive forgiveness I need to give it too. I do not want to have a contest of who hurt each other more, or whose decision was worse than the other it is a waste of time. What I do want to do is apply new principles from the ground up, it�s what I have been waiting for 8 months�..but I cannot build a marriage alone. I still believe we can have a wonderful marriage one day if we truly made a DOUBLE effort at it with both of us.

Until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will be having no communication with you, and I will avoid seeing you. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you. If you need to contact me, please speak to sis.

For reconciliation to happen I would need the following from you before making a commitment to reconcile:

> A full confession
> A sincere, remorseful apology
> A recovery plan for us both

I truly love you H, and I want to have a happy fun life, doing all the amazing things we have talked about, you know what I mean. I want to be with you for the rest of my life.

I love you always, Harmony.

Cool Harmony, The list seems to unspecific. I would rather you were the one being specific, because that would reflect that there were certain goals you were aware of. But here is a list in priority demands,(needs) first. Hope it passes with everyone also. This is based on what I have heard from you and the state I imagine WH is in. It is also your list to him, and not his to you. He might want to negoiate also.

> A full confession ...an ablity to be totally open and honest with me about anything i ask about whenever I ask.

> A sincere, remorseful apology.....for what we both will agree was selfish behavior, not by my standards, but by anybody with a good marriages standards and the examples given in the MB program.

> A recovery plan for us both.. namely using the tools in MB to help each other, instead of ourselves. Examples..

1 using UA time to really spend time together concentrating on each other and falling in love again.
2 Practicing the policy of radical honesy and policy of joint agreement to sort out problems and find solutions together.
3 Examining whatever is going to effect each other and the marriage emotionally. This is of course done at a practical level too first. Lets help each other instead of hiding from each other.
4 Lets also use professionals to examine ourselves if need be, or help us overcome poor thinking or bad habits, if those things are causing each other pain. Lets go all out.

> Last but certainly not the least, and what I need more than anything, is for you to have a plan and dreams for us. visualized place with concrete steps you are building on, and show me that I am the most important person in your life, that I am like your own body, that you will take care of me well as you learn to take care of yourself, or we learn together.-------------------------------------

Theres a start on what I thought. Its long but someone else will have to be the expert on using less words. It is me after all. Whattya expect?

We could say.."go to a doctor and deal with your past issues with Mom" But you haven't even identified they are problems yet, and he will have to get on board with that though counselling with Dr H too.

Ok Vets? JL? Jessie? Scotty?, Mel?, or anybody who has been following this thread through from the start?
Hi Constant

Thanks for looking at my letter. I think you could be right about the terms of reconciliation. I am worried about making them too 'high'! Only because I am the FWW who started this mess so how can i put so many terms in place? Also because I am worried about frightening him off.

I feel so hopeless about my M tonight. He left the house 2.5 months ago, and has stayed here 2 nights. I think if he loved me would have come back by now...:(

Heart aches.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/01/11 08:21 PM
My WH has been gone for more than a year. And it has NOTHING to do with ME. That is all HIM. HE doesn't care for himself enough to correct the mistakes he has made in his life. And, I am BETTER today than I was last year. Get some more time in A TRUE DARK PLAN B. Again, knowing that your WH went away for NYE, HOW? You need to get DARK. NO CONTACT not just WITH him but ABOUT him. Come on Harmony, I KNOW you CAN do this.
Scottys right, instead of that dark and protected plan B where you could be working out your recovery and seeking dreams and plans for a marriage recovery, you again get triggered and distracted.

Lets get the letter figured out and delivered, and we will talk about dos and donts of plan B, and how WH might trip it up in his reactions as a foggy person too.

Here I go posting music again.

Just a huge part of me. It can make us laugh, cry, smile... it can destroy us, frighten us or empower us.

Listened to this one today, and thought of you, Harmony - as well as any other ladies in Plan B.



Quote
Even if you were a million miles away
I could still feel you in my bed
Near me, touch me, feel me
And even at the bottom of the sea
I could still hear inside my head
Tellin' me, touch me, feel me

And all the time you were tellin' me lies

So tonight, I'm gonna find a way to make it without you
Tonight, I'm gonna find a way to make it without you
I'm gonna hold on to the times that we had tonight
I'm gonna find a way to make it without you


Have you ever tried sleeping with a broken heart?
Well, you could try sleeping in my bed

Lonely, own me nobody ever shut it down like you
You wore the crown
You made my body feel heaven bound
Why don't you hold me
Near me, I thought you told me
You'd never leave me


Looking in the sky I could see your face
And I know right where I fit in
Take me, make me, you know that I'll always be in love
With you
Right til the end, OOh

So tonight, I'm gonna find a way to make it without you
Tonight I'm gonna find a way to make it without you
I'm gonna hold on to the times we had tonight
I'm gonna find a way to make it without you


Anybody could've told you right from the start
It's bound to fall apart
So rather than hold on to a broken dream
We'll just hold on to love

And I could find a way to make it
Don't hold on too tight
I'll make it without you tonight

So tonight, I'm gonna find a way to make it without you
Tonight I'm gonna find a way to make it without you
I'm gonna hold on to the times we had tonight
I'm gonna find a way to make it without you



Chin up!

*edit*

LOVE the quote from the beginning of the video;

"There are those among us who are blessed with the power to save what is loved by another, but powerless to use this blessing for love themselves."
Ill see your Alicia Keys and raise you a Clinton Davis.

Think Gloria Gaynor singing, though Issac Hayes and the Jackson 5 might have had more coverage with it.

I remember a female singer, thought it was Roberta Flack but can't see a reference to that, so it might have been Gloris Gaynor.----------------------------------------

Never can say goodbye
No no no no, I
Never can say goodbye

Even though the pain and heartache
Seems to follow me whereever I go
Though I try and try to hide my feelings
They always seem to show
Then you try to say you're leaving me
And I always have to say no...

Tell me why
Is it so

That I
Never can say goodbye
No no no no, I
Never can say goodbye

Everytime I think I've had enough
I start heading for the door
There's a very strange vibration
piercin me right to the core
It says turn around you fool
You know you love him more and more

Tell me why
(tell me why)
Is it so
(is it so)
Don't wanna let you go!

I can never can say goodbye boy
ou ou baby
I never can say goodbye
no no no no no no no no no no no

ou! oh!
I never can say goodbye boy
ouuuuuuuu ouuuuuuuuuu
never can say goodbye
no no no no no no no no no no no

(chorus)


I keep thinkin that our problems
Soon are all gonna work out
But there's that same unhappy feeling and there's that anguish, there's that
doubt
It's the same old dizzy hang up
Can't do with you or without

Tell me why
Is it so
Don't wanna let you go

I can never can say goodbye boy
ou ou baby
I never can say goodbye
no no no no no no no no no no no ------------------------------------------------------


I like that quote too HHH. Reminds me of that line in the eagles song "Already Gone"

"So often times it happens,
that we live our lives in chains,
and we never even know we have the key"
Thing is, we can't stand to be alone, or our love to be rejected. Thats what really hurts, that what we are giving from the bottom of our hearts, of us, is scoffed at and not worthy anymore. Our sacrifice of ourselves and what we give was not recognized as valuable.

When someone accually treats us like that, we accually believe it.

Can we survive without human love? Sure but life seems so much richer with it. Once we have it, or feel it, it is very hard to feel right again without it.

But its possible, after getting past the rejection and pain, to love oneself, in reality, and without obsession and desparation, like human love can sometimes breed in the confusion and fear we hoped love would cure, from who we thought was going to save us.

Its a delicate balance, between taking care of ourselves and knowing ourselves, and taking care of someone else. We must come first, and we must have a balance also whithin ourselves, before we can truly help anybody.

So there is the wisdom of Plan B again, to get away from the drama yes preserve that precious commodity love, by preserving yourself.

Lol I am thinking of "What the world, needs now, is love, sweet love, " Old soul songs are running through my head tonight.
The benefits of Plan B start to get better each day. I feel so relieved to start the year fresh so I can make some good decisions from some of the learning and growth that happened last year.

I do have some crazy dreams, mostly to do with H finding a 'better' person. A lot to do with my decision to have an affair. Still quite haven't forgiven myself for that one.

Whilst I am more at peace with myself, I have been in a better place to reflect. I do believe that I deserve remorse and an apology for the way he has behaved since my A.

Yesterday was a good day. I spent the day on my own cleaning the house, made some healthy soup, watched some good films 'The War Bride' and got a good nights rest and was completely fine. Going to take better care of myself, I just realised there is nothing wrong with slowing down I have just been through quite a huge trauma watching my dad pass.

Going over to my step mums today to spend time with her and read some of my dads cards, tissues at the ready!

I have also getting to the point that I am going to be just fine and that I need this time alone.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
The benefits of Plan B start to get better each day. I feel so relieved to start the year fresh so I can make some good decisions from some of the learning and growth that happened last year....
Yes an in time you will be glad you did not do everything you felt like doing, even though you will feel justified if you did. Your emotions will not rule you and you will seek your own peace whithin with every decision.

(Dam I sould like a hypnotyst rotflmao)

But this is true Harm.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..I do have some crazy dreams, mostly to do with H finding a 'better' person. A lot to do with my decision to have an affair. Still quite haven't forgiven myself for that one....
Normal but still disturbing I know..

After my wifes death and because she was a foggy wayward herion addict and we never recovered at least to a point that she saw she was hurting me so much, I never heard the words, "I'm Sorry". Words that I had heard many years before from her when just drinking owned her troubled mind and she got sober. I was still in a state of guilt and hopeless loss of control. and helplessness.

Because in my mind I still feel its all my fault somewhere deep inside, in my dreams right then after she went home I must have reflected what my worse fears were. I had dreams of being in a inner city ghetto, controlled by my own emotions, and experiencing an out of control sense of being lost with a compulsion to follow and chase after a woman. In this case it was my first wife, drugs were involved, and I had no control. I woke up when the dream was me having sex with her and the imagery was so intense it scared me awake. It wasn't making love, it was an out of control compulsion to bond. I think its called hysterical bonding.

Those dreams have been long gone, but I know that in our minds are memorys we process when we sleep, and I am sure when I have dreams they are a nessesary part of a healthy process emotionally. If I remember them I give them some thought, but I don't give them to much weight, because they are coming from my own perception, and that cannot allways be trusted, as can anyones. They are just part of the process of adjustment to reality and my concept of it.

We are human Harm. We must reach out and up for the answers, and forgive ourselves as we process the truth we will fall without the proper support. At the same time we must learn some of the rules given to us are for our own good and trust them, or suffer the consequences which will follow. Thats the gift you have now, you are not alone in the human condition, and there is help in understanding.

You seem to want to understand whats going on. We can help in that, but the rules will allways apply. When people tell you to just "do it" and lay out the way to recover your marriage, its not because they are disecting all of the past mistakes or believe it will help the future to do so, its because they know that the proper actions will produce the results of a recovered marriage.

Forgive yourself please, you are only human, and the terrible painful details of the past and who did what will not help your future except that you have learned something from them. Again Scottys statement."Scars show us where we have been, they don't have to dictate where we are going" The fear will pass. You can have a bright future, how will you plan for one?

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Whilst I am more at peace with myself, I have been in a better place to reflect. I do believe that I deserve remorse and an apology for the way he has behaved since my A...

Yes you do, but is he ready to recognize it or give it. You can't force it either, he must realize it himself. Thats what Plan B is for.

To give him time to see what life would be without you, no contact, no Emotional needs being fed or drama being sustained,(something that fuels his self-pity BTW)

To simulate what it would be like divorced, to let him be alone with himself, to not have you around to blame for his sorrow,(something we must all do and part of your process of realization also)

To each realize that getting even, being angry, hurting each other is pointless and futile. That making a plan with forgiveness at its core and detailed actions that MUST be done if we are honest, is the only way back to being real and honest even with just ourselves.

To finnally realize we still love each other, and thats why the emotions are so high, and the laid out details and demands are not accusations in disguise, but a guide to how you can restore love, a love you both really wanted anyway, what you both sought to begin with in your union, one even stronger because it doesn't come from you, it comes from above.

It will take humility to realize that, and being alone without having all the past painful reasons to hold onto the anger, and the realization that they do no good anyway for anybody, has a way of teaching us we are part of the problem.

Maybe then he will apoligize, but he must come to this truth on his own. Even couple who are recovered realize years after what they did and how they hurt thier mate. They apologize again, and hopefully are forgiven.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Yesterday was a good day. I spent the day on my own cleaning the house, made some healthy soup, watched some good films 'The War Bride' and got a good nights rest and was completely fine. Going to take better care of myself, I just realised there is nothing wrong with slowing down I have just been through quite a huge trauma watching my dad pass....

Yes, you have been through a lot in the last year, grieving loss is a process and trust me it will get better.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Going over to my step mums today to spend time with her and read some of my dads cards, tissues at the ready!

I have also getting to the point that I am going to be just fine and that I need this time alone.

That is so sweet, and sharing that grief will be healthy. Have you read any books about the stages we go thru in grief? Not to prolong the grief but it will help you to identify feelings and not feel unattached because we all handle it differently, and the stages are different for everyone. Its totally personal Harm, and bittersweet.

Don't be to alone OK? Good trusted friends that you can spend time with accually doing things healthy for you beside the times you might have to talk about problems are normal. You find out who your friends are that way too.

Happy 2011
Sorry to t/j, but to Constant Process, you are in my prayers. Thank you for keeping up the good fight and helping others. God will heal your pain my friend. He healed mine. Stay strong brother!

Now Harmony, 2011 is YOUR YEAR! Do enjoy this peace, quiet, and make this year about your positive choices, and smile. Breathe deeply in and out (I used to feel as thought when I first entered plan B that I was breathing quite shallow and it caused my bp to get too high), exercise frequently, and show love to yourself and children and friends.

Time will work its' magic and God will also burden the heart of your wh. Blessings to you and realize the peace of plan B is the beauty of it, along with what happens to the ws during this plan.

Trust. It's all good. Just trust!
[t/j]God has a great sense of humor

From peachys Sigline,, yeah thats what I hear, lol, and am looking for too!

Thanks peachy.[end t/j]
Harmony,

I like CP's recommendation of specificity. Don't you just love that word? smile

I would make a few suggestions. Consider that your H does know what MB is nor the jargon, so make sure you don't use it specifically or he will be confused.

One thing struck me and the request that he have a plan. My thought would be just slightly different. He MUST be willing to sit down with you and lay out a plan that protects both you and him and addresses what each of you need in this marriage. This should be joint effort. What would help this planning effort is for him to consider what would be an "ideal" marriage for him and what he would need from his W. This should be coupled with what he is willing to do for his W.

Please understand that POJA and even "radical honesty" are negotiating tools that make for the best possible win-win plan and that is what you want.

Harmony, I think your draft letter is an excellent start. I think CP's recommendations are excellent. Communications have always been a problem with you two, so be specific as to what you want for Plan B to be over. Give him a path home that even HE can follow. wink

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/02/11 11:24 PM
JL, owe you an expanation, but rather to tj I will create a new post.

Tom
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
[t/j]God has a great sense of humor

From peachys Sigline,, yeah thats what I hear, lol, and am looking for too!

Thanks peachy.[end t/j]

While some people who share my belief system are rather dry, I would say that be it God, or just the Universe, the Duck-billed Platypus is evidence that we were meant to laugh, even if left scratching our heads as to why.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
..One thing struck me and the request that he have a plan. My thought would be just slightly different. He MUST be willing to sit down with you and lay out a plan that protects both you and him and addresses what each of you need in this marriage. This should be joint effort. What would help this planning effort is for him to consider what would be an "ideal" marriage for him and what he would need from his W. This should be coupled with what he is willing to do for his W...

That would be the best thing I agree, but it seems they both are confused and want to, and maybe need to, spend time apart before they get to the planning stage. They both seem to have some wayward mindsets mixed up with BS sorrow. So Harm wanting to be in plan B and with Him allover the place, I thought a letter desribing what she needs, coupled with what she wants, would be the best choice for his healing too.

Maybe I am being to careful but I see every time they are together and every conversation filled with misery and blame, or desparate hysterical bonding, which frankly is scaring and confusing both of them. As you too have commented, communication issues seem to be thier biggest hurdle. The drama seems to mess that up.


So at least give him a letter she can get behind and believe in, while she goes into a dark Plan B, and he is in his own dark place too.

If possible the best would be them sitting down and making a plan they can both get behind and trust, but because they both want time alone, she can show him what she wants and dreams of untill he realizes or not he wants the same thing, or close to it, and then they could sit down when recovery is on its way.

Like you JL, I see a lot of issues with him that he is maybe slowly dealing with, but I don't see him ready to commit, forgive, or be accountable for his part.

But the spirit of what you suggest is right on, and something he can understand is important too. So it doesn't sound like "MB-Speak" and scare him by confusion. I think he gets scared easily when he doesn't understand, but thats normal too in this tender situation.

Thanks for the thumbs up on my suggestions. I hope she can re-word them with whatever appropiate spirit conveyed applied. They were just suggestions and i expected that they might need tweaking. Maybe by some of the vets also.

Sometimes I talk to much and am to wordy, lose the point in giving what I think is a complete explanation, if you know what I mean guys.


Everyone have a great night in MB land
@Harmony, HHHigh, and CP:

There's a million reasons why my tag line is what it is, but I'll tell you the main silly reason. When I had to leave my once dream home that I built with xwh, I left and was practically penniless. My xh made sure of that. I left behind a home that was for most people in their 30's way way way out of a normal price range.

Fast forward about four and a half years at a certain sushi bar where I meet my now DH, that handsome guy (my DH) asks me where I lived. I said "in such and such, GA". He says, "I live in such and such GA" (another neighboring small town and atl burb). I reply "Wow that's funny. A long time ago I used to live in such and such subdivision in such and such town". DH replies, "That is really funny. I live in the same subdivision. On the 15th hole."

So everything I lost, God gave me back. I walked away from everything materially I had, to go on faith and just try to start over. It took a painful divorce, several years of working hard to get on my feet alone as a single mom, and to try to heal financially and emotionally but it happened. And when my heart was healed, God allowed me to meet the right guy at the right time. The right man also to be the right kind of father to my son.

I now reside in a far different area of same subdivision where I once built my dream home. And how is that possible knowing I live in such a major metropolitan area? But I have to add. I live in a better section of that neighborhood now. God DOES have a sense of humor.
What a victory story peachy.. I get it, Georgia peach.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
I like CP's recommendation of specificity. Don't you just love that word? smile...
Did I use that word? Lol, It doesn't even sound like aa real word does it?

Ok seeyas tommory.
Hiya Peachy

Love your name! Thanks for popping into my thread.

Originally Posted by peachyisback
Now Harmony, 2011 is YOUR YEAR! Do enjoy this peace, quiet, and make this year about your positive choices, and smile. Breathe deeply in and out (I used to feel as thought when I first entered plan B that I was breathing quite shallow and it caused my bp to get too high), exercise frequently, and show love to yourself and children and friends.


You totally hit the nail on the head. I have just given up smoking (i was smoking about 3/4 a day). That helped with the anxiety. Its when a thought pops into my head, such as H falling in love with another woman or some other horrible thought, that the anxiety kicks in. I do a lot of running but could with some meditation excercises to still the mind.



Originally Posted by peachyisback
Time will work its' magic and God will also burden the heart of your wh. Blessings to you and realize the peace of plan B is the beauty of it, along with what happens to the ws during this plan.

Trust. It's all good. Just trust!


I really believe in Plan B, but that thoughts take over and I just think what I am asking from my H is too much (sorry!!), thats just my negative thinking process.

I am going to put my trust in the Plan.

Still DARK! Have not heard a peep out of him, I have not talked about him, checked his FB (I have blocked him), checked out his friends FB or done any drive bys.

Little bit withdrawal at the mo.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/03/11 11:11 PM
Hi Ms. Harm,

"Its a delicate balance, between taking care of ourselves and knowing ourselves, and taking care of someone else. We must come first, and we must have a balance also whithin ourselves, before we can truly help anybody." - Constant.

Well, Constant does really say very profound things, which we can all benefit from.

I can empathize with you in terms of the physical separation that you are experiencing now with your H, and the uncertaintly about the future. It is not the same thing I know in terms of your situation - we are older, there isn't an emotional detach or the longing that the other person will do the right thing in the end, but there is the separatation and the loneliness. In your case it was a decision to protect yourself and your love for your H, in my case it was forced due to the fire. In the end, we are both faced with this separation from the person who we are a part of, and who is a part of us.

Many times in the past I have been faced with Char's lengthly hospitalizations - 3 months in 1978, 2 months in 1979, and several other times. These were not by choice of either of us, but nonetheless they were hard. Neighbors, friends, coworkers and my boss asking where she was, the times out for dinner with a friend or neighbor, and I felt like the 'third person' (back then, not many understood mental illness and the need for long hospitalizations), and the nights just sitting alone at home, pining, feeling sorry for myself compared to others, drinking, and blaming myself for causeing her breakdowns. I did have support from her parents, mine, boss and friends, but i just knew they didn't really understand how I could be so down in those days.

Well, with your decision for your Plan B, how do you get thru these times without failing to take advantage of this time for you?? That is what it is - time for you - whether it is chosen as in your case or imposed as in mine.

How you strive to get thru this IS going to make a difference in the rest of your life Ms. Harm. It just will. As Constant said, "it is a delicate balance,' and "we must come first" in these situations. That may sound selfish, but it is not. It is self-protection, self-preservation, and in this case, preservation of the love you still have for your H. You cannot worry every hour of everyday how he is going to react.

There are lots of ways to get thru this, and I know you may be thinking it is easy for me to say, but, focusing on you means simply discovering yourself, your limits and self improvement. When I was younger and she was hospitalized it meant taking care of the house, yard, and even cleaning the house. Now that I am not working as much it involves some things I could not or did not do when working full-time all these years - leaning to cook different meals (going to try baked lemon chicken and this week and salmon loaf next week - I didnt get to make these last month), a rigourous program of exercise (I would love to be in shape this coming spring to do a 60 or so mile marathon for a chariy and enjoy it and see the outlying areas - I have even thought about a cross-country bike trip!), volunteer work that is meaningful, gardening (still am trying to learn how to propogate the geraniums from last year which are still green for this coming spring), and, of course, teasing and taking care of our cats every night. These are not just 'make-do' things Ms. Harm, these are things I am truely interested in and want to use them to excel and to challenge my limits. Believe me, Harm, I believe these activities can make me a better person and contribute to my knowledge of myself, and if Char benefits from this then that is so much better too.

Just take Care Ms. Harm,

Tom






Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/03/11 11:37 PM
Hi Harm.

Just wanted to relay something else to you, and yea I know this may be stupid, but nonetheless.

Had a desire to attend mass on New Year's night, and altho it was like 10 degrees walked there and am so glad I did. I just felt like it, and I promised Mary I would for the first saturday. (I know - very catholic, which I am not that much and have heard that from Char over the last 30 years - but was something I wanted to do).

The homily was "epiphany". Of course, the message was about the revelation of Christ on Christmas, but the priest made the point that it can be applied to so many things in our lives. A sudden and intuitive understanding of the reality of something.

I think that is what you are going thru, as most of us do in relation to a life experience. To fully realize this tho, we need to have faith, patience, and and an open mind. I feel this applies whether is is the reality of a marriage, the reality of a faith, or the reality of any life-altering event.

Just a jumbled thought, but I thought I would pass it on to you.

Tom

Updated Plan B Letter (only changes are in red)
DH

Words cannot describe how sorry I am for creating this mess, if only I could turn back time things would be so different. It is the worst decision I have ever made, and one that I will always regret for the rest of my life. I know I put you through incredible pain, both through the affair, treatment of you and lies. I am ashamed of my behaviour.

I honestly believe that it was a self destructive cry for help rather than a love affair. I should have told you the truth before the A, that I was struggling, that I needed your love, support, time and attention. I thought if I had to ask for it, it meant that you didn�t love me. I have realised that I have self destructive coping skills that surface when I am faced with difficult situations. The stressful new job, the house move, the house building, in law issues, your business finance issues, the wedding, the fertility problems, Dads cancer, all took its toll and I did not know how to cope.

In the past 6 months, which has been very tough I have used this time to work on me and implement new coping tools, as this would have been prime time for me to get self destructive, but I have made it on my own and learnt to cope with some pretty tough [censored] and be strong without doing anything destructive.

I take full responsibility for creating the position we are in, but I cannot take responsibility for some of the actions and decisions you have taken since. Some of those actions have been very painful and caused me many sleepless nights, nightmares, tears and anxiety. I know that if there were no other women involved, then I would have tried to win you back harder, but I had to pull back for my own sanity.

I have learnt that in order to receive forgiveness I need to give it too. I do not want to have a contest of who hurt each other more, or whose decision was worse than the other it is a waste of time. What I do want to do is apply new principles from the ground up, it�s what I have been waiting for �..but I cannot build a marriage alone. I still believe we can have a wonderful marriage one day if we truly made a DOUBLE effort at it with both of us.

Until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will be having no communication with you, and I will avoid seeing you. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you. If you need to contact me or need access to the house, please speak to sis.

For reconciliation to happen I would need the following to happen before making a commitment:

> No contact with the other women for the rest of your life.
> A full confession.....an ability to be totally open and honest with me about anything I ask about whenever I ask.
> A sincere, remorseful apology...for the pain and suffering you have caused me
> Complete transparency to each other in all areas of our life (to all phones, emails, credit card bills and receipts, passwords, facebook etc)
> Sit down together and agree a recovery plan for us both which will protect us both and address what we both need from a marriage and what we are willing to give. Examples include,
Spending time together
Stop doing things that cause each other unhappiness e.g. solo holidays, angry outbursts, criticising, lies�
Doing things for each other which makes us happy e.g buying cakes!, arranging days out, supportive of business, consideration of others feelings, involving family�
Complete honesty about everything including thoughts both positive and negative about each other�s behaviour, whereabouts, hopes for the future�
Move home to a new area


I truly love you H, and love being with you, that�s why I wanted to marry you. I want to have a happy fun life, doing all the amazing things we have talked about, you know what I mean. I want to be with you for the rest of my life.

I love you always, Harmony.

I think that is a good start, but am not a plan B expert or letter expert Harmony, so wait for others too to give a thumbs up.

Are you sure thats everything? Anything else you want to add but need help in expressing?
Hi Constant

No I think thats it, in the plan I have covered the 4 areas of recovery outlined by Harley but in non MB language.

I am frightened about giving him this letter, frightened because I feel that it will come across as 'too much hard work' and too formal for hubbie.

Also last time we spoke he was adamant he had nothing to be remorseful about, but he also knew what he was doing was wrong.

Foggy thinking?

I think he is afraid of recovery and it is not about my affair anymore, it is the damage he has caused and continues too.
Hi Harmony,

I don't want you to be frightened about giving your husband the Plan B letter. I think it's time and now is the time to change how you two have dealt with each other and that starts with honesty and saying what you want whether he likes it or not, he is a big boy and he can take it............
You have covered your fault and your willingness to fix all the wrongs and make the marriage a great place to be for both of you.........
But Harmony he has to be in the right frame of mind for that to happen.........
It's time to step away and let him make the decisions he needs to make for himself...........judge him by his actions.....I think if you listened to them you would realize that he isn't where he should be, not yet anyway.............
After you have given him the letter, you go dark and move on with your life he will have to show you at this point that he can change and does have a willingness to stay in the marriage the right way............if he doesn't then move on and find a new life for yourself...................you have tried that's all one can do..............
Stay strong in 2011 ........it's your time now, you have grown for the better............
What jessie said, and give him some time to figure out it all up to him to change him, up to you both to change the marriage relationship.

I beleive he has the capacity for change, and I think more time is nessesary for him to realize what he will be missing.

You need time too. No rush now,, give him the letter and stay dark.

Remembmer to set up like scotty said a way you will know nothing about him, and him you. Protect your plan B like you will be protecting the peace and integrity of your marraige someday. with discipline and trust in the right actions.

TTyl Harm, God Bless
Hi Guys

Coming upto the 2 week dark point of Plan B - yeah !!!

Why is it that I am starting to be upset and annoyed with the way he treated me?

The peace of him not being around is good, trying to analyse his crazy thought process was driving me crazy. He gaslighted me all over the place. He even told me to go away and come back to him in another couple of months after I had sorted myself out. This was after I told him that he had shown no remorse over the way he had treated me.

I know I am not supposed to be bad mouthing him, but just venting really.

I could do with getting some more interests going like Tom suggested.

OK I got chatted up at the shop today, I ofcourse did not react but it felt good to know I was still attractive to somebody. It has also been awhile crocodile if you know what I mean? Not that I needed it, it was just a surprise thats all.

Vets - if you could have a peek at my Plan B letter would be much appreciated.
JL

Could I ask you a question.

I feel a lot of rage towards his mother, I feel like she has won.

I am annoyed at the amount of control she has had over our relationship. I am annoyed that my H could not see this.

I am finding it difficult to gain perspective on this, and this 'anger' boils up inside me a lot and did when we were together.

When H got back with me last year, she would hardly have anything to do with him. She would not come to the house or call the house, and hardly saw him. There have been many things, but my H got angry with her before the wedding as she completely turned a cold shoulder on it. When my H told his mother and brother we were getting back together, they both told him he was doing the wrong thing and hardly spoke to him.

H oldest brother, has a handle on the situation, he has moved far away and makes it clear his wife is his priority and won't tolerate any of her manipulative behaviour.

I feel like she is a narcisstic mother, as every description fits this. I know I created this mess, but she has been against us since day 1 and she probably say how much he loved me.

I don't know how to get a handle on this one. When I spoke to SH he said that H told him his family were anti-reconciliation.

I just feel like I am fighting a losing battle here.

Thanks, Harmony.
Harmony,

I still have many questions about my whole situation and my therapist always reminds me that I should just stop trying to make sense of other people's decisions, he told me that I can't do that, their decisions in life don't have anything to do with me and everything to do with who they are..........
I think anger is part of the grieving process, acceptance is a big part of putting that to rest, accepting them for who they are and accepting the fact that others have every right to be who they want to be even if we don't like it.........
Be grateful she is out of your life, this is the new Harmony, you don't need people in your life that don't have your best interests at heart...........
She hasn't won anything, she still is that narcissistic person, you on the other hand are realizing the difference.............
Bravo..............free yourself from the anger ...........
Harmony,

Are you annoyed at the amount of control she had over the relationship, over your H or over you? Why does it bother you that H could not see this?

Let' talk about this for a moment. If he were reared with his mother controlling and inserting herself into his life, why would he expect things to change when he dated and married you? You were his W not his mother.

The woman is who she is. Let's say she is very controlling. It is your H that let her have the control. It is you that let her have the control.

She did not have any say in you deciding to cope with things by having an A.

You think she won? I think it is a matter of perspective. I think she lost. Her son was terribly hurt by your actions, so her being "right" about you, cost her in that regard. Her son is very likely to never find a girl that mother approves of, unless she cow tow's to the mother, and then your H would not be happy because he is married to a spineless woman. If he does bring home a woman his mother doesn't approve of, he will be no happier than he was with you, due to her interference.

Point, now if her goal was to make her son miserable, she has won. If her goal was for her son to be happy and in a healthy marriage, then she has lost. Worse to the extent that she has control of him, he will never be happy. I just don't see much of a win for her, given how she acts and assuming she wants him happy. Him being happy would entail him moving away from Mom, and that will not make her happy either.

She did not support the marriage, but in reality neither did either of you. His behavior, your choice of coping skills did not support this marriage. YOu are learning and growing and becoming a woman that most Mom's would like for their son to marry. Keep it up and you will win...you will end up happy with the right man.

You asked about your plan B letter. My thought is to take out the paragraph that mentions his behavior. It brings up his defenses. You want him focused on the list of accomplishments you need to see for recovery. He may say, "well, this is easy I want done with this" and not do any of them. But, you wont' know if you don't tell him.

My personal thought is when you give him his list of "to do" items, you mention that you have done some of them and are willing to join him in all of them. Just sort of a "the door is open" statement for your own continued growth.

Hopefully others will come along and offer their advice. Jessie and CP are giving you excellent advice.

God Bless,

JL
MIL Situation:

Thanks JL and Jessi, I really appreciate your perspective on the situation.

I guess your right that she hasn't really 'won' anything. If she truly wanted her son to be happy she would have got right behind this marriage and after the affair I would have been round there like a shot, apologising for my horrendous behaviour. I do think the situation was a factor in how unhappy I was pre affair. I do remember though sitting down with H before we got married and saying you understand don't you that your mother and I don't really gel? I did try and address it, in the only way I knew how.

I do hope my DH comes round. I think he has it in him I really do. I knew he always had it in him, I just hope I didn't kill that spirit through my actions. I pray he comes round.

Boundary work:

The boundary work has changed my life a great deal. Although, it does seem to be a boundary free society!!

It seems all sorts is going on around me, which shows where folks have had a lack of boundaries, it feels like I am a fly on the wall to stuff I already knew about!

Sometimes I get annoyed I didn't learn a lot of this stuff whilst I was growing up, I just feel as though maybe I wouldn't be in the mess I am in. It has just shown me how important it is to be a 'good parent'. It makes me laugh when people keep saying to me about my friend who had the illegitimate child with the married man, and people keep saying ooooh she is going to make a wonderful mum, hmm i beg to differ, but what can you say?

Maybe, this whole thing with the affair, was meant to be in some sick and twisted way, maybe it was inevitable at some point something like this would happen and would bring me here and learn all this stuff.

Do you think people with lackof boundaries attract those kind of people too? Cause I feel surrounded by them! Its funny though on my new course I ahev met some really nice girls who seem well, 'normal'!! Do you know what I mean?

Anyway rambling thoughts. I hope I am not heading for the shrink cell.

Night all.




Posted By: atena Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/04/11 10:49 PM
I have very strong boundaries and yet married a man with none. I am super careful now who I go out with and call a friend. If the person has cheated or has had problems with bounderies I choose to not be friends with her. I just rather be alone than in bad company. It is true, everybody nowdays seems to be doing things that are not right and everybody condones it...but then, it is a choice. I choose not to live a life that hurts others if I can help it.
And I will try to help it as much as possible.
blesssing
Originally Posted by Just Learning
...You think she won? I think it is a matter of perspective. I think she lost. Her son was terribly hurt by your actions, so her being "right" about you, cost her in that regard. Her son is very likely to never find a girl that mother approves of, unless she cow tow's to the mother, and then your H would not be happy because he is married to a spineless woman. If he does bring home a woman his mother doesn't approve of, he will be no happier than he was with you, due to her interference...

This whole post was right on IMO also, but here is the point of why you must keep away from her, because she is an enemy to your marriage.

This was one of the main problems plaguing your marriage from the start. It was one of the first areas you talked about when you started posting, and we discussed extensivly how his Mom, and His Dad, and thier whole family dynamic had messed up your Husband, and he wouldn't, couldn't see it. I remember JL talking about it as well as other here.

At the beginning, when we suggested the big Guns in an attempt at reconciliation, I for one said Independant counseling should be part of any conditions for contact in a Plan B letter.


Why didn't I put it in as a suggestion now? I felt that if he could not see by himself that his mothers poison for his marriage could not be listened to after he was alone for awhile, and saw the plain facts and clear plans in your new plan B, then he just might be lost. Add to that his behavior IS calming down as to the OW and he still is interested in you.

He is not as foolish, cruel, and wild as he was back then, and he shows some promise.

It might take Joe Shmoe a year after recovery to see how his MIL effects his W. It would come with a willing heart to make his W his priority instead of old ties.

Here it is from Genesis the first book of the Bible. Its wisdom speaks especially to us who have felt the sting of misplaced loyaltys.

Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Genesis 2:23-25

Tear it down a little, It is talking about accually doing something and changing priorities. New places of relationship and concerns, moving on and becoming free from the parents, thier emotional makeup, problems, phobias, and even thier covering, protection, and emotional bond.

The loyalties and prioritys, not love and honor for them, respect can still be given them, but I respect a rattlesnake, I don't try to reason with them or let them bite me. An adult only honors what makes sense with another adult, and if Mommy and Daddy are still treating thier grown Son like a child and in fact themselves are messed up, its up to the child to "leave them" in that way too.

How would a loving son taking care of his parent in old age suffering dementia honor them if they said, "Call the army! The cat is taking over again!"? I think he would comfort them but I doubt he would call the police.

We discussed this about how WH has allways had to go along with his controlling Mom before, and how her husband never stood up to her either. Also you saw how he treated you like he treated Mom. Ignored her demands and went behind her back just taking without asking, because he was so sure the answer was no, negative, personnally degrading and unsupportive. It made it also clear he thought you treated him like Mom did, in reality he jumped there in his fear and projected those feelings on you, to support his habit of acting the way he did.

Because he could, even though he knows its wrong. He didn't marry you because you were like his Mom. He doesn't even like how she treats him. Or he wouldn't be "accusing you" of being like her. I bet he felt being with you would save him from that fate, because you were so different, but he needs to do his part in saving himself, it a team effort now, because you are one, and are each others priorities.

"become one flesh" ---Well thats easy to see, and cleaving has more to do than sex, it is cleaving emotionally also. In Christianity the "Flesh" is our human weakness, our emotions dictating our actions and thinking, instead of our thinking and actions controlling our emotions.

It takes reason and constant communication with truth for an individual to deal with their own emotions in good times or bad,(loving a dark plan B huh?), why would it not take the same and added to that communication with the marriage partner in the same truth and reason to maintain emotional stability and peace. Especially in hard times, but in good times the joy can be shared.

His Mom is poison to his marriage and it seems to him also. Right now she has him a "I told you so" grip because the venom she spews has done its job on him, and "Daddy" doesn't seem to care enough to stand up to her either and by example set WH free either.

I felt that if he could just see that, and acknowledge that he must ignore them/her, and find his own way, and his hope for the marriage he must have dreamed about at one time is brought back to life through your guidance in the plan of reconciliation laid out in the plan B letter, and his time alone to come to the end of himself, well maybe he would leave them behind and seek therapy to handle the triggers he must feel, in time, as you work on your marriage.

His Mother, his IB behavior habits, and denial must be seen by him and he must fight them actively while being supported. I know at one time you were willing to support him, and you thought just loving him might change all that, but insisting he be the man he can be is loving him too, and that has been a painful lesson most have learned the hard way. It takes a lot of love to do a plan B and forgive them for being so cruel and weak in thier blindness, even to watch them throw away what at first feels like you, but in reality its running away from themselves, and know its for them you stand for what is right in relationship, even if they never see it.

But its for you too, because doing what is right makes you stronger, and standing alone as it seems in this mess accually brings you closer to the truths we all must deal with, and you find you are not alone really. Together in a common goal but uniquely you just the same. Individual but united.

I think because your WH is so damaged it gives him an even BETTER chance of seeing that, and becoming even a more real and honest person about relationships. He just hasn't hit his rock bottom yet and he needs a guiding light. Your doing your best to help him, he will never let you be his leader, but I bet he might let you be his partner, when he finnally admits to himself he let this happen too.

There is nothing stopping you from waiting this out Harmony. You will not be happy getting married because your bio-clock is ticking and you want the status quo. I know there is more to you than that dear, and you know there is more to WH than IB and denial.

You will get what you put into it right? You are in the unigue position to see the pain of an A and also understand how much crap had to happen to get to that point. You are now learning and hanging out here with people who have built and recovered thier marriages. You are to smart to run out and fall head over heels in love without understanding in all relationships there comes a time when the real person you connected with is revealed with all thier flaws and blindspots.

Many people will tell you they love thier spouse because of thier scars and flaws. Its said God loves us that way, and not because he has to, but because he loves us he reachs down to touch us and bring us out of the darkness of our lonliness and fear. That the truth will set us free, and the hard things we endure are for our own good. The rules are for our protection from ourselves, they set us free from trying to change what is real to fit our own plans which we derived from our own shortsighted wisdom.

As smart as we might be, and even with good intentions and hard work, things get messed up and we see that we did it, were selfish all along, and yet we can find in the honest and brave in this world, or within the scriptures many times, others who had followed that same blind path. Then we can ask how to get out of the pit we have fallen in, and get the truth.

Maybe not the facts, dont confuse that with the truth. I will give an example. A fact is something proven, an indisputable reality all can see. Documented, coraborated evidence. Its a fact the sun came up and went down today. Is it the truth it will come up tommorrow? It wont be a fact until it does.

The bible said the world was round before Magellan sailed around it and proved it in fact.

You will need faith if your marriage is to be recovered, and live in truth as the facts develop. This goes for both of you

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen.


How can hoped for things be a substance? How can something not seen be evidence?

God is in the recovery business Harm, and He is working in you and your WH, even in the pain and frustration. The truth shared here is sweet about what marriage should/could be, and even the people who do not have a deep background in scripture still have the deep capacity to love and recognize it when the truth is revealed that we all need it. Thats how I became a believer, when truths I allready knew were revealed to me in the bible when I had already thought I knew so much, and I was privy to unique knowledge. I was raised Christian and came from a strong Baptist background, but I had been away for years and thought I knew what it was all about. I was mistaking religion for God, just like facts for truth.

Sorry if I sound preachy, but not really, I'm just being politically correct by apoligizing lol.
I really beleive you two have a chance to recover, but its allways up to you two, and one might have to be the strong one who leads the other back. I want to encourage you in recovery, and in faith beyond what you see just for a while, as you explore yourself and what you want out of life, and what you will fight for. Like JL said before, any wife that his Mom would like would be spineless anyway. A Plan B will force him to be alone and see that he is not married to her, and your clear plan to restore love, grow together, and protect your marriage will not only be a gift that stands eternally for his own good, but it will bless you at the same time.

I didn't ask you to put anything about his Mom in the list for plan B because I think it is something so deep maybe he cannot see it, but yes it has to be dealt with, and you will need a lot of patience, faith and hard work to eventually overcome it. Maybe it would be wiser to deal with that in therapy with DR H, once you both are in that safe place.
Originally Posted by atena
I have very strong boundaries and yet married a man with none. I am super careful now who I go out with and call a friend. If the person has cheated or has had problems with bounderies I choose to not be friends with her. I just rather be alone than in bad company. It is true, everybody nowdays seems to be doing things that are not right and everybody condones it...but then, it is a choice. I choose not to live a life that hurts others if I can help it.
And I will try to help it as much as possible.
blesssing
I am with ya atena. The company you keep right? I think you can trade equally the words "strong boundaries" with "self respect" and there are just some lines I will not cross. Ever since I grew out of being able to be taunted by the "I dare you to, are you chicken?" and realized I had nothing to prove.

Ever heard the saying, "Opposites attract, be don"t stay together"? A polite way that a therapist said that to me and my late wife was,"You compliment each other"

Jeez Semantics..
Ouch it hurts today. 2 weeks dark and it hurts.

Was tempted to text him this morning, saying I love you please come home. I didn't though.

I am going skiing next week, and would be much rather going with him. I am worried that because I broke Plan B, that the 2nd time it isn't as effective.

I forgot to mention that the 2 OW he was 'friends' with, will no longer speak to him. He basically used them and they thought that once we 'broke up' then he would want to be with them.

I haven't given him the Plan B letter yet, but will try and do today or tomorrow.

We have not slept in the same bed together since March last year, and he has been out of the house for 2 1/2 months frown.

Posted By: Meggin Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/05/11 12:14 PM
Stay strong, Harmony. I understand the temptation to contact him but you know it's for the best that you don't. Get busy with the rest of your day and put him out of your mind. (Much easier said than done.) My WH has been gone from our home for 3.5 months. I understand the daily pain. {{{Harmony}}}
Harmony
You have really turned the corner on understanding the reasons behind plan B.

I am happy for you about that.

Keep up the good fight.
Hi

Thanks for your support Meggin and Barbie.

It really does hurt today.

I just keep thinking he is never going to want to come back and that it is all totally hopeless frown

I know this is negative thinking but I feel as though he just doesn't want me and I am not getting the message.

I broke no contact by checking his mates FB profile to see if there was any pics of there snowboard trip. I just keep thinking he is going to meet someone so much better and it is going to destroy me.

Hi Harmony,

I know it hurts but time to change your thinking today, look at the Plan B as part of the bigger plan, a stepping stone, you can't get caught up in today..........
The end result for the right reasons that is what you want.........
Now get out there have some fun................your thoughts will pass if you keep yourself busy......................
Have a happy Harmony Day.................
So is it official? Has the letter been finished and sent?
no not yet Constant.

I am going to leave it in the letter box for him. I have started forwarding his post to his house but when I go away next week he may stop by to pick up his post. The letter box is on the side of the house, and he has a key for that so gets his mail that way.

I am really dreading giving him the letter, it feels pointless and he will hate it. POssible love buster?

I wouldnt worry about this as an LB. Hes mad because of his own guilt. Did you DJ? or AO? then I wouldnt worry to much about it. Now if you said what you are really thinking (sleezy scumbag) then that would be an LB.
Thanks Wheels.

I guess I am just really concerned that I am going against Steves advice.

When I spoke to SH on the 21st Dec, I told him that I had seen quite a bit of my H. SH told me to ask my H about a plan for us both to rebuild the marriage. I did this and H said OK lets talk in the New Year.

I felt annoyed as I should sit here and wait for him to go off and plan all his holidays and then wait for his call in the New Year. Also not convinced he is still not seeing OW.

Hence back into Plan B.

Just worried that I have made a mistake and should have said to H go enjoy your new year break and lets talk in the New Year. It just felt wrong that I should have to twist his arm into coming back. So I went back into Plan B.

frown frown frown

Its all so confusing knowing what the right thing is to do.
Harmony,

Have you gotten divorce papers from him? Has he had a lawyer contact you? As he suggested you get a lawyer? Has he done anything to suggest he is actually finished with this marriage?

I don't see it in your posts. I suggest that you give him the plan B letter which is after all a road map back to the relationship. If he decides to go off road, and end it, he does.

Quit borrowing trouble. You don't know what he is thinking, but you do know that he has taken no actions to officially end this marriage.

JL
Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/05/11 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hi

Thanks for your support Meggin and Barbie.

It really does hurt today.

I just keep thinking he is never going to want to come back and that it is all totally hopeless frown

I know this is negative thinking but I feel as though he just doesn't want me and I am not getting the message.

I broke no contact by checking his mates FB profile to see if there was any pics of there snowboard trip. I just keep thinking he is going to meet someone so much better and it is going to destroy me.

Hi Harmony,
Just started Plan B, well tried to anyway. TWO times WH did the 'pop in'(show up unexpected, didn't know if you knew what that meant :D). It's hard, and hurts. It seems to hurt worse when I see him. It's like, when we are together...old times...we are together, know what I mean. But that's only in MY head. His head, both of them - (U.S. slang, know that one? guess if you don't)are with OW. I wish I could pop his head off, extract his brain, go to the local market, buy a NEW IMPROVED brain, pop it back in and voila! No more fog, no more lies, no more why's. Silly thinking.

I too keep thinking he's never going to want to come back and it's totally hopeless. Seriously, why would he? I think the only way to have him want to come back, change his ways, work on this M, is with Plan B. That he wants freedom and wants no responsibilities, his wants are not his needs. I truly beleive in my heart of hearts that WH and I can have a happy M. Do you beleive that Harmony? Then you have to MAKE IT HAPPEN.

Your H is going to meet someone better than you? Don't distract yourself from Plan B with thinking that.
I still think she should just go ahead and file for a divorce and if and I mean a BIG IF he wants to recover he should just date her laugh

This is a new year perfect time to get a new life.

He will never file why should he? He has the best of both worlds he can have fun now and when he's ready he can go back home and his wife will be waiting...really? Is that what you want??
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
....

I guess I am just really concerned that I am going against Steves advice.

When I spoke to SH on the 21st Dec, I told him that I had seen quite a bit of my H. SH told me to ask my H about a plan for us both to rebuild the marriage. I did this and H said OK lets talk in the New Year.

I felt annoyed as I should sit here and wait for him to go off and plan all his holidays and then wait for his call in the New Year. Also not convinced he is still not seeing OW. ...

But him going off is what you agreed upon right? You have no proof he is seeing OW, so get a PI and find out. He is still your Husband legally, and you have a right.

The converstaion as I understood it was that things went better, but you BOTH wanted some time apart, and he agreed he did too.

It doesn't seem he broke aany promises.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Hence back into Plan B....

Thought you were planning that anyway and wanted that and it was agreed upon by both. Honestly don't see a new development that forced you back into B, it all seems par.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Just worried that I have made a mistake and should have said to H go enjoy your new year break and lets talk in the New Year. ...

Again I thought when you talked to him right around your fathers passing, you both agreed on time apart. To you its a plan B with support from us. With him its paln throw it all up in tha air with no plan. But I thought that was settled with you. Or is the lonliness getting to your imagination? Do you really think he is having the time of his life? Are you jealous he is out acting like he is single when he is married and like a little boy?

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Its all so confusing knowing what the right thing is to do.

Right now I think the order of the day is do nothing after the plan letter and decompress a little.

You said you believe WH has it in him to be the Husband you need. Do you? You go back and forth Harm, if you want to recover then you have to grab a plan and stick to it faithfully. Can you?

I'm sorry you are here and this is so tough on you.

How many miles today? Maybe you should take up boxing like scotty to get rid of tension and aggresstion.

Hope you feel better, BTW did you read the real long post I put up last night?
Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/06/11 02:02 AM
HARMONY! HARMONY! I just saw your photo on Photobucket.

OMG...

YOUR HUSBAND IS AN [censored]...YOU ARE GORGEOUS! How's he ever gonna find ANYTHING better than you?

Nice to put a face to the name. I'll post mine if I can figure out how...

Thanks Mitze! Of course I had to look too... Lol.

You do have a very sweet countenance Harm, your eyes are very soft and... Hold it! This isn't appropiate! rotflmao

Seriously though I thought you would be a brunette, don't know why...


I asked about the long post because I know how it is here. Being one of the worst offenders of making them even I skip over them trying to see what "everybody else" said. The only time I read them all the way thru is if I am following a certain thread, or going to post to someone who allready has a long thread and need to understand more. Everybody is warned about making long posts. People sometimes just don't read them

But back to why I asked. There was a lot in that post, the problems you must be facing with his Mom seem to be at the core of your problem. I can imagine how a woman who has such a close relationship with thier Mom, and has had problems with father figures, would really be upset by how this Mom of his is. She must have broke your heart too.

Did you ever read some of the posts about the validity of your feelings? How it is WH job to comfort you and protect you from the negative influences from his own family if nessesary?


No long post tonight. I think we are at a point where a lot of words aren't helpful or nessesary reading material for someone in crisis. I just want to encourage you and say that you are not alone if you think your feelings have messed things up and you doubt yourself or thier validity.

I assure you your feelings are important, and thier were reasons for them. Also from what you have said from the beginning, you worked and struggled for the right things and just wanted a good life with your H. Its not too late Harmony, don't lose faith in the right actions.

Hope your having a good night and continue finding peace and Harmony. (Ok , cheap joke) mr eek
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..I am really dreading giving him the letter, it feels pointless and he will hate it. POssible love buster?
This is a padded twoxfour...

What you need is not pointless, you need to give him a chance for you as much as him. You will never regret doing what in the long run will show you have the ability and capacity to love, and the guts to try and lay down your life again for your marriage.

Its not whether he comes home or accepts the help offered in time for a reconciliation before you move on. Its about you being satisfied with yourself and knowing its time after you have exhausted every avenue to heal what you once held so dear to your heart.

I only say this because I think that even though you have realized his part in not protecting his wife and why you had an A, you will have to think about someday that you did it first. It wont matter as much if you recover the marriage, but either way it will be something you will have to process and in time and future actions have to work through untill you forgive yourself. Whether you get back together or not Harm. You will go through it.

Its better than running away from it, or pretending it didn't happen, facing any future thoughts will be easier if you give it time.

By the way yes he will hate it, he doesn't want to face reality yet either. They allmost allways hate the letter, because it makes sense and convicts them.

We would all rather live in our emotions and the fantasy of believing we never do anything wrong or hurt others with our mistakes. But thats just not true.


Damn! another long post! banghead

Ok goodnight.
Originally Posted by mitzie
HARMONY! HARMONY! I just saw your photo on Photobucket.

OMG...

YOUR HUSBAND IS AN [censored]...YOU ARE GORGEOUS! How's he ever gonna find ANYTHING better than you?

I'd count you a close fouth behind FWW and my DD's, Harmony. I may have a slightly biased opinion, though.

laugh
Posted By: gg615 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/06/11 04:29 AM
Harmony,
There's something that bothers me about your situation (if I understood it correctly).
You were on-off A for a year in 2009.
Your BS becomes WH three months after you leave him -
A month later NC broken - you're back with OM
Your EA lasts another 8 months before H discovers NC broken
You Plan A Aug and have semi-started Plan B in Oct and still trying to Plan B.

Plan B is to protect you from your WH actions. Unfortunately his actions are direct result of your WW behaviors. Learning has a point about your WH. I have to think you don't realize the depth of your BS-turned-WH pain. He's lashing out at you in the worst way possible because he wants to hurt you. I don't know if your M has chance of R but I wish you well with your efforts.

Gg

Hello Constant

Thanks for your post. I did read it just hadn't had chance to respond. It was very insightful and helps explain a lot.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
This was one of the main problems plaguing your marriage from the start. It was one of the first areas you talked about when you started posting, and we discussed extensivly how his Mom, and His Dad, and thier whole family dynamic had messed up your Husband, and he wouldn't, couldn't see it. I remember JL talking about it as well as other here.

I always dealt with it badly from the start, as you have probably guessed my H and I are conflict avoiders. I saw the red flags from day 1, when my H gave me his mothers view without me asking, she thought you were lovely very chatty and full of conversation, to when he bought me my first valentines card, my other said I should buy you one! The major red flag was when I was buying a place on my own after being together a year, I had met my H shortly after coming out of a long term r'ship and wanted to take thigs slow. H told me that his mother thought it was odd I was buying a place on my own and I should have an ultimatum, buy it together or we split. Ofcourse knowing what I know now, I should have said no, I won't be pushed into something I am not sure about. It seems that H has spent the entire r'ship trying to prove my worth to his Mo, ofcourse he is on a road to knowhere, as the only woman she would like is one that she had control over. My card was probably marked from the beginning when she knew I would never let that happen. A point just before we got married we went to Australia for Christmas with my mother and stepd dad, she blanked him Xmas Day when he got to speak to her she was really cold towards him, and he was upset about that for awhile. She made him feel guilty about it, and he let it get to him.

So as far as MIL was concerned nothing I ever did was good enough which was relfected back to my H. When I had the A, the first thing my H said, well my mother was right about you. I guess he said it more in anger, as he so didn't want her to be right.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Why didn't I put it in as a suggestion now? I felt that if he could not see by himself that his mothers poison for his marriage could not be listened to after he was alone for awhile, and saw the plain facts and clear plans in your new plan B, then he just might be lost. Add to that his behavior IS calming down as to the OW and he still is interested in you.

He did see it, but its like he has rejected everything about me since he found out about the A. He did really start to see how his M was, not completely but he understood. Mainly because his older bro, had the same issues with his wife. I suppose that he really trusted me, I broke that so he ran to what he does trust 'his mother'. I wish he could see she doesn't have his happiness at heart, she disliked his BF at school, liked his 1st GF who she had control over but my H just walked all over her, disliked his 2nd GF and then disliked me his wife.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Tear it down a little, It is talking about accually doing something and changing priorities. New places of relationship and concerns, moving on and becoming free from the parents, thier emotional makeup, problems, phobias, and even thier covering, protection, and emotional bond.


Its funny, but I really feel that I have gone through a lot of that this year with my parents. I really have detached emotionally to be able to make my own judgements and views. I am not sure H has done it, he has been so angry it has just not been his focus. He always says that I don't have my own view and I always listen to my mother - could be projection? He treats his own mother with cold contempt.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Because he could, even though he knows its wrong. He didn't marry you because you were like his Mom. He doesn't even like how she treats him. Or he wouldn't be "accusing you" of being like her. I bet he felt being with you would save him from that fate, because you were so different, but he needs to do his part in saving himself, it a team effort now, because you are one, and are each others priorities.
His Mother, his IB behavior habits, and denial must be seen by him and he must fight them actively while being supported. I know at one time you were willing to support him, and you thought just loving him might change all that, but insisting he be the man he can be is loving him too, and that has been a painful lesson most have learned the hard way. It takes a lot of love to do a plan B and forgive them for being so cruel and weak in thier blindness, even to watch them throw away what at first feels like you, but in reality its running away from themselves, and know its for them you stand for what is right in relationship, even if they never see it.


I just hope he sees it frown He is going through his own growth process aswell here, lets hope he uses this time, I think and pray that he is.

My only worry that being appart is going to make it easier for him to walk away. frown

I am using this time in a positive way, I just worry about the disconnect of not being together.

I am not sure how long I can remain in Plan B. I am concerned that he is on a mission to replace me.


Thanks COnstant.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Right now I think the order of the day is do nothing after the plan letter and decompress a little.

You said you believe WH has it in him to be the Husband you need. Do you? You go back and forth Harm, if you want to recover then you have to grab a plan and stick to it faithfully. Can you?


Yes I can stick to Plan B, just floundering thats all and having situation over analysis anxiety! It is still along the same lines as what SH is saying and that is getting him to commit to a plan.....I love him enough to wait.
Originally Posted by mitzie
HARMONY! HARMONY! I just saw your photo on Photobucket.

OMG...

YOUR HUSBAND IS AN [censored]...YOU ARE GORGEOUS! How's he ever gonna find ANYTHING better than you?

Nice to put a face to the name. I'll post mine if I can figure out how...


Why thanks Mitzie blush

Look forward to seeing more pics, its so weird after talking to people all this time!!
Originally Posted by gg615
Harmony,
There's something that bothers me about your situation (if I understood it correctly).
You were on-off A for a year in 2009.
Your BS becomes WH three months after you leave him -
A month later NC broken - you're back with OM
Your EA lasts another 8 months before H discovers NC broken
You Plan A Aug and have semi-started Plan B in Oct and still trying to Plan B.

Plan B is to protect you from your WH actions. Unfortunately his actions are direct result of your WW behaviors. Learning has a point about your WH. I have to think you don't realize the depth of your BS-turned-WH pain. He's lashing out at you in the worst way possible because he wants to hurt you. I don't know if your M has chance of R but I wish you well with your efforts.

Gg


Thanks GG.

Yes I had an PA on a business trip, I came home and told my H I was leaving. 5 weeks later I realised I had made the biggest mistake of my life. I cried to the OM what a huge mistake I had made and how much I loved my H. I tried to reconcile with my H but he would not talk to me, he already had a new GF by then. After numerous attempts to speak to him I left him alone, he then contacted me about 1 month later. It was disaster from then on. We started trying to recover the M, my H wanted to take it slowly still living appart. My H was still in touch with OW and acting independantly, so I broke the no contact with the OM and used him as 'emotional support' to deal with my H constant rejection. Wrong I know.

I managed to get my H agree to let me move back in the house, then a few months later he read emails between OM and I and he discovered the A. The emails were mainly flirty but also talking about the efforts i was putting in to try to recover but H did not want to know. Twisted and foggy.

After D Day in March 2010, my H and I continued to live together. He told me that it was 'over' and had 3 more A's whilst we were living together. He did not make much attempt to keep them secret, it ws obvious but he lied about where he was going. After 7 months of this, I eventually moved into Plan B.
I broke Plan B when my father passed away.

I discovered MB July this year and initiated counselling immediately. I wish I had discovered MB from the day I married let alone before the A, maybe things would have been different. I understand why you need 'help' when trying to recover a M after adultery.

Yes I have put him through a horrendous amount of pain, the lie about the A, continuing contact with the OM and leaving the house and packing all of this. I don't think I can ever realise the amount of pain but can only try.

It made it harder to try and recover the M as he was actively seeing OW.
I feel like most of your very short "marriage" was spent in having affairs and disrespecting one another.

This tells me that you do not really know the meaning of marriage. Or how to have a marriage. Or how to communicate in marriage or be happy in a marriage.

I do realize that you have a compulsive need for a man, any man, especially this man to approve of you, accept you, and like you.

But to me, this seems like a selfish need based on your own neediness which has nothing or very little to do with romantic love. In other words, if you are still so emotionally infantlike or insecure, or have low self worth that you NEED a man to approve you or you won't feel good about yourself, then you will not be able to ever have a happy marriage even if you want one as we all do!.

What makes you think you are ready for marriage in any way?

The more you fret about this husband rejecting you, finding another woman, and dumping you, the more this tells me that you are indeed not ready for any relatinship with a man, especially a marriage. The sad part is that if you are not ready for marriage, then nothing you can do to get this man back will "work" or "succeed". You can learn the meaning of marriage and so can your husband. I just am not sure if you two can (or both of you want to) learn it together and in a few short months.

*I think you need some marital training before you venture back out there dating or getting back with this man (if that is possible).

If I dated a man and we both had affairs in the first few years I would realize that I was not cut out for relationships at that time and needed to get some self esteem and stay away from men. Also I would realize that I was not ready to settle down and rather, needed to meet many people and sow more wild oats.

There are many stages in life we need to all go thru:

You, Harmony seem to be at this stage to me:

1. The sowing wild oats stage where you date different people
2. The "attracting men" "flirting wtih men" and "getting men's attention" stage.
3. The dating stage where you meet new men, date, and have sex with them
4. The "learning about yourself" stage where you discover who you are.
5. The "emotional maturity stage" where you hammer out how you want your life to be and find out how to get there.

If I were you, I would refuse to sell myself short here. Fully explore and get through EACH AND ALL of these stages in your life. With the help of a counselor if you want support. Do not try and jump these "maturing" stages and jump back into a relatinship with this husband or another man.

Why do you not yet realize this fact that you are not and have not been ready for marriage??? What does marriage mean to you? (It did not mean very much given you had a long term affair)

Do you really still believe you are ready for marriage at this time?

The questions I would ask myself if I were you are this:

1. Am I really ready for marriage now?
2. What does marriage mean to me?
3. Can I learn to observe men and recognize red flags rather than jumping into relationships?
4. Can I hold off leaping into relationships with men and start getting some self esteem?
5. Is my husband a suitable marriage partner for me right now?
6. Am I a suitable marriage partner for this husband right now?
7. Are we compatable and both ready for a committed marriage right now or in the near future?
8. Why do I want a man around so badly?
9. What is it I need from a man?
10. Why am I so confused, afraid, insecure, and uncertain?

Ask yourself these and write out your answers in a notebook where you can track your progress.

Your progress in life should address these areas.

You need to progress in:

1. Developing morals/values for yourself
2. Hammering out areas where you are not yet mature
3. Figuring out what things you like and dislike
4. Seeing the talents and qualities you possess
5. Exploring your relationships with men and observing the problems
5. Figuring out where you are weak in self esteem
6. Bolstering and strengthening your self esteem
7. Finding out why you are so needy
8. Figuring out what marriage means to you compared to "dating a man".
9. Discovering how to judge a situation wisely and observe and judge a man wisely.
10. Learning to see people as they really are rather than "how you want them to be" or "how you think they should be or should behave".
11. Learning how to keep immature, toxic or abusive men and women out of your life.

If your foundations for marriage are not there or not developed, then your questions about this husband are moot and will mean nothing in the larger scheme of things since you will not be mature enough or ready for marriage enough...to carry out a marriage even if he does choose to come back.

These things will mean nothing if you are not ready for marriage and have a good self esteem without a man:

Mean nothing:

1. Whether your husband will find a better woman soon than you
2. If your husband will come back or if he won't
3. If he is still cheating on you or not
4. If you can get him back or not
5. If you should stay married or divorce
6. How you can get him back
7. If he loves you or not

None of these mean anything if you are not ready for marriage and mature enough to handle a good marriage and all that it means. You should get down to the roots of why you cheated, why you lied, why you had no morals, and why you are not mature enough not to cheat your whole marriage. And then solve these problems FIRST, before trying to rope this man, who may not be a suitable marriage partner anyway, back to you.

What I fear you have been doing, Harmony, is closing your eyes, and diving into any man near you without even thinking about it. For example, you have been eagerly flirting with other men and relaxing your boundaries around other men. You also try and attract men for attention and to make yourself feel good. These things will not help you. You husband will not help you learn to love and value yourself. Having a man around will not help your self esteem or make you feel "normal" or "better" just as having a child will not make you "normal" or "feel better about yourself" either.

You got a lot of learning, observing, and growing up to do my friend before you attempt to save this marriage or create any other relationships with men at all.
Originally Posted by gg615
...Plan B is to protect you from your WH actions. Unfortunately his actions are direct result of your WW behaviors. Learning has a point about your WH. I have to think you don't realize the depth of your BS-turned-WH pain. He's lashing out at you in the worst way possible because he wants to hurt you. I don't know if your M has chance of R but I wish you well with your efforts.
GG615

Although you are a little confused to the timeline as I have seen it, you are right in seeing Harmonys situation as being greatly aggravated by her affair.

The difference in what you see is the behavior extremes between her and WH, and how he even looks at most women, or treats them.

Harmony realized shortly after her angry, fantasy filled and exciting affair with OM she screwed up and she gave up on WH and her. Then she moved out and tried to fix her own life by the blame game against WH. Thinking she might get together with OM out of a combination of shame and justification of her actions. But her conscience and feeling for her WH would not buy it. It was only a matter of weeks before she moved back home, and sought help and reconciliation. Her feeling for OM was more of a withdrawl from her own fantasy of escape which OM represented. She contacted him and shortly saw who he was, and that he was a POS trying to be big swinging Richard eventually. She stopped all contact pretty quikly, though she did go thru withdrawl as she looked at herself and found the support from people here she needed. Proud of her for that. smile

Am hoping WH will return and take our place as he should in supporting her.

Her contact was limited and she did not have a "poor me your so wonderful" fantasy with him like most deep EAs are, and do the most damage to the marriage. She has made great progress in that, and has shown WH remorse from about 2 months since her PA.

Is the above paragraph right Harmony?

Then from that point when WH found out about the affair, his world being collapsed, he reacted by fighting fire with fire. First he was angry, then he started seeing other women and I suspect drinking and diving into the pit he felt he must have fallen into, and must fight his way out of. Although reacting in anger gives a certain relief to us, we eventually realize the consequences of our actions in our reactions to fear or "fight or flight" WH does not see or recognize he did anything wrong, and blames all the problems on her A, even though his neglect for her and failure to protect her and the marriage had much to do with her A. Of course if Harmony had come here first, as many people here will say, we could have helped her with a plan B to help that. Harmony realizes that the A made things worse.

WH is still confused about what behavior makes for a good marriage, the nature of what will restore love, and is in a self-destructive cycle confused, afraid, and doing the blame game. Slowly he is getting better but still needs to work on himself, which has been greatly hampered by his Moms ball-busting treatment of all men around her and his acceptance of that as being the way it should be, and his habits he has developed to deal with that reality as he sees it
.

Again Harm would you agree with that statement?


The problem is with our reactions that we don't understand. We do things for a reason, we feel things for a reason, and our thinking, then our actions, create our world which then our feelings respond to. We all need a plan to be happy. But we rush into relationships because we see all the good posibilties, and we minimize the problems, hoping they will work out. Most people do this, and without the hope and faith in dreams we have, we would be negative and not even try to build anything anyway. After we are there we learn how to cope and grow as we learn what love is about, or we squirm and fight the truth of what it takes to love, and blame everyone else.Its a self defense mechanism, we all are capable of it, and its a challenge to rise above IMO. The rewards are personal.

Speaking of actions, and the result of them. We find ourselves responsible for our situations and would like to believe we did no wrong in them. Taking action is normal, but the reasons are within ourselves. Was it a reaction to fear or a righteous act of self protection? The question is in whether it was righteous, or was it the right thing to do. Our emotions don't think things through, they react, and sometimes they are right, but we have no control over them and them us unless we let them.

I am worried that Harmony will see her affair as an action that was right, instead of an act of despartation and fear. Much like it really was, and she is realizing that, but she still blames her WH for it inside when she is backed into the corner of blame and the overwhelming realization of how damaging it was. She still hasn't completly forgiven herself, but that will go away as she has changed and is still changing her thoughts and looking at the proper actions that will produce the right thinking.

I also believe WH justifies his actions and at this point anyway cannot deal with his own issues. I think they had issues that should have been dealt with before the marriage, but who doesn't? While in the marriage they should have been worked on but had no plan to because they hadn't reared thier ugly head yet. Harmony tried, but WH ran away into denial and IB. The rest is history, and it is history BTW Harm.

What needs to be avoided IMO is either of them justifing what they did in destruction of thier marriage, in future times they find themselves in conflict, so those defensive reactions don't happen again. This will stop thier marriages growth, and thier personal growth, which is what its all about. Mutual support and caring for another weak and frail human being in this world so selfish and wishing to just serve itself. Its a battle that must be fought anyway, and running away from it does not help us. Loving someone else is a gift we can share with God, and being loved is also a gift from Him. But we must rise above to the God of our understanding, and start there.

Like Dr H perscribes as far as I can see.

I hope I summed it up accuratly, I think it needed to be summed up anyway and I have been following this thread since the start. I belive some time in a plan B with a laid out plan of recovery will do wonders for Harmony, and if WH eventually returns for him too. Of course its up to them, but it would be wrong to say it can't be recovered, and to encourage her in waiting, and help her sort out things for herself. She is still thinking she must do something about it, and I think time apart might bring clarity and WH might get help in recovery for himself, and maybe even the relationship.

Hang in thier Harm
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
I feel like most of your very short "marriage" was spent in having affairs and disrespecting one another.

This tells me that you do not really know the meaning of marriage. Or how to have a marriage. Or how to communicate in marriage or be happy in a marriage.

I do realize that you have a compulsive need for a man, any man, especially this man to approve of you, accept you, and like you.

But to me, this seems like a selfish need based on your own neediness which has nothing or very little to do with romantic love. In other words, if you are still so emotionally infantlike or insecure, or have low self worth that you NEED a man to approve you or you wont feel good about yourself, then You will not be able to ever have a happy marriage.

What makes you think you are ready for marriage in any way?

The more you fret about this husband rejecting you, finding another woman, and dumping you, the more this tells me that you are indeed not ready for any relatinship with a man, especially a marriage.

I think you need some marital training before you venture back out there dating or getting back with this man if that is possible.

If I dated a man and we both had affairs in the first few years I would realize that I was not cut out for relationships at that time and needed to get some self esteem and stay away from men.

Why do you not yet realize this fact??? Do you really still believe you are ready for marriage at all?

Ok now that you have pointed out the problems Bubs.. What are your ideas for a solution? Its easy to find fault, it doen't make you a wise counselor.
Hi Constant, It took me awhile to add the possible solutions, as I see them, to my post to Harmony. I am sorry you only got the first (too short) version! Go back and look now...thanks.
I feel like most of your very short "marriage" was spent in having affairs and disrespecting one another.

This tells me that you do not really know the meaning of marriage. Or how to have a marriage. Or how to communicate in marriage or be happy in a marriage.

I do realize that you have a compulsive need for a man, any man, especially this man to approve of you, accept you, and like you.

But to me, this seems like a selfish need based on your own neediness which has nothing or very little to do with romantic love. In other words, if you are still so emotionally infantlike or insecure, or have low self worth that you NEED a man to approve you or you won't feel good about yourself, then you will not be able to ever have a happy marriage even if you want one as we all do!.

What makes you think you are ready for marriage in any way?

The more you fret about this husband rejecting you, finding another woman, and dumping you, the more this tells me that you are indeed not ready for any relatinship with a man, especially a marriage. The sad part is that if you are not ready for marriage, then nothing you can do to get this man back will "work" or "succeed". You can learn the meaning of marriage and so can your husband. I just am not sure if you two can (or both of you want to) learn it together and in a few short months.

*I think you need some marital training before you venture back out there dating or getting back with this man (if that is possible).

If I dated a man and we both had affairs in the first few years I would realize that I was not cut out for relationships at that time and needed to get some self esteem and stay away from men. Also I would realize that I was not ready to settle down and rather, needed to meet many people and sow more wild oats.

There are many stages in life we need to all go thru:

You, Harmony seem to be at this stage to me:

1. The sowing wild oats stage where you date different people
2. The "attracting men" "flirting wtih men" and "getting men's attention" stage.
3. The dating stage where you meet new men, date, and have sex with them
4. The "learning about yourself" stage where you discover who you are.
5. The "emotional maturity stage" where you hammer out how you want your life to be and find out how to get there.

If I were you, I would refuse to sell myself short here. Fully explore and get through EACH AND ALL of these stages in your life. With the help of a counselor if you want support. Do not try and jump these "maturing" stages and jump back into a relatinship with this husband or another man.

Why do you not yet realize this fact that you are not and have not been ready for marriage??? What does marriage mean to you? (It did not mean very much given you had a long term affair)

Do you really still believe you are ready for marriage at this time?

The questions I would ask myself if I were you are this:

1. Am I really ready for marriage now?
2. What does marriage mean to me?
3. Can I learn to observe men and recognize red flags rather than jumping into relationships?
4. Can I hold off leaping into relationships with men and start getting some self esteem?
5. Is my husband a suitable marriage partner for me right now?
6. Am I a suitable marriage partner for this husband right now?
7. Are we compatable and both ready for a committed marriage right now or in the near future?
8. Why do I want a man around so badly?
9. What is it I need from a man?
10. Why am I so confused, afraid, insecure, and uncertain?

Ask yourself these and write out your answers in a notebook where you can track your progress.

Your progress in life should address these areas.

You need to progress in:

1. Developing morals/values for yourself
2. Hammering out areas where you are not yet mature
3. Figuring out what things you like and dislike
4. Seeing the talents and qualities you possess
5. Exploring your relationships with men and observing the problems
5. Figuring out where you are weak in self esteem
6. Bolstering and strengthening your self esteem
7. Finding out why you are so needy
8. Figuring out what marriage means to you compared to "dating a man".
9. Discovering how to judge a situation wisely and observe and judge a man wisely.
10. Learning to see people as they really are rather than "how you want them to be" or "how you think they should be or should behave".
11. Learning how to keep immature, toxic or abusive men and women out of your life.

If your foundations for marriage are not there or not developed, then your questions about this husband are moot and will mean nothing in the larger scheme of things since you will not be mature enough or ready for marriage enough...to carry out a marriage even if he does choose to come back.

These things will mean nothing if you are not ready for marriage and have a good self esteem without a man:

Mean nothing:

1. Whether your husband will find a better woman soon than you
2. If your husband will come back or if he won't
3. If he is still cheating on you or not
4. If you can get him back or not
5. If you should stay married or divorce
6. How you can get him back
7. If he loves you or not

None of these mean anything if you are not ready for marriage and mature enough to handle a good marriage and all that it means. You should get down to the roots of why you cheated, why you lied, why you had no morals, and why you are not mature enough not to cheat your whole marriage. And then solve these problems FIRST, before trying to rope this man, who may not be a suitable marriage partner anyway, back to you.

What I fear you have been doing, Harmony, is closing your eyes, and diving into any man near you without even thinking about it. For example, you have been eagerly flirting with other men and relaxing your boundaries around other men. You also try and attract men for attention and to make yourself feel good. These things will not help you. You husband will not help you learn to love and value yourself. Having a man around will not help your self esteem or make you feel "normal" or "better" just as having a child will not make you "normal" or "feel better about yourself" either.

You got a lot of learning, observing, and growing up to do my friend before you attempt to save this marriage or create any other relationships with men at all.





Quote
I feel like most of your very short "marriage" was spent in having affairs and disrespecting one another.
That's what I've been missing: how long have you been married, Harmony?
Bubbles ty sooo much for ur post!! Harmony need to read and reread that post again I still think she should just file for a divorce and wait a year or two to start dating her wh OR someone new.

I actually stopped reading this thread because its always the same thing, harmony please do something different this thread has been in the exact same spot for 4 months now sigh....let's get going shall we???
Originally Posted by Harmony2011
I am concerned that he is on a mission to replace me.

Expectations on other people. Disrespectful Judgment.

You do not know this to be truth. All you know is that WH has a choice to make.

Do you think he will make the right choice for himself? If not then how are you any different from MIL?

Plan B is a choice for you also. Do you want anyone making this choice for you?

What are the expectations that you have for yourself?
There bubs, is some help
Dang i will print that list
But i think she can recover and still learn all that
If not then nobody should ever get married. Because it means you stop learning then
Its about restoring trust in the things you said also even though they didnt want to hear it. They sure will learn it now. Thats its work.
Thanks bubs
Hi Bubbles.

Yes I could just walk, yes I could just file for D, that is yet to be decided when I feel READY.

I love my H, and during Plan B it is giving me some time to truly reflect on some of his qualities and whether he is someone who is marriage material. The odds are probably not if I am honest, but I am prepared to wait. I know that just because I love someone, does not mean that they have the qualities that are desirable in a H.

In terms of which stage I am at, I am way past the sow your wild oats stage, in fact I have never really been in that stage. I could never really cope with 'loose sex' I did a couple of times and it really upset me. I have spent more than enough time single from the age of 21 - 26 so have spent time alone outside of any relationship. Anyway, I could not be less interested in other men at the moment if I tried and certainly don't need them to make me feel good about myself. I do 'observe' men more though, just because I have learnt so much here and I have never really understood them so just notice things now, like how they talk about their wifes. For example, a guy in my office today was talking abut his wife in a loving way about something she had done for him. The another in the office refers to 'her indoors' and calle dhis wife a name and I thought what a ?>:)*&&&%!!. I hate that. I was so naive before.

In all this madness with my father passing away and the separation with my H, EVERYONE I know says how I have really got my act together and coping with 'double trouble' really well. I go to work, I go to my college course, I go see my friends, I live on my own, I go see my family, plan trips and nights out and I am getting on with it just fine. Without a man, or needing one.

I am confident in my understanding of what makes a good marriage and know thats the stage I want to be in.

Was I immature when I went into the M, yes. Did I know what made a good marriage, no. Did I choose a H based on whether he would make good marriage material probably not. Did I have an affair as a 'lazy and destructive way' of dealing with the issues in the M, yes.

Have I spent the last year trying to piece things together and gain some understanding? Yes probably all day everyday.

Do I miss my H? Initially when I went dark yes. I am though more and more as time goes on, relecting back on his 'ways' and it is pushing me more against reconciliation.

I know that I could D my H, have some time out, and then someone else will come along. I am not afraid to walk from this M. What I am afraid of being like the many other divorce people who look back and say, chit I was a bit hasty there. Or just encounter the same problems but with someone new and the stats on 2nd marriages are poor.

I am in no rush and I (cannot speak for my H) know and understand what constitues a good M, and I am more than ready to start using what I have learnt. I have learnt A LOT. Hours reading threads, books, observing other M that I come into play with day to day life, and I know what works and what doesn't.

I would much rather be sat here in 10 years time, looking back knowing the growth my H and I have gone through. I know that I can't make him go through the growth he needs, but I want to give him that chance. I don't feel there are much odds to be honest. We both bought issues into this M, maybe it is what we needed, maybe just maybe its what needed to knock some sense into us both. I know I cannot control my H but time will tell, then I can walk. I am in no rush as Plan B is Plan growth, learning and improving for ME.

I know what you think Bubbles, that I should file for D and walk, most of my friends and family think that too, I find it hard sometimes to find a reason not too. I am just not READY.

Anyway, thats where I am at in Plan B, and if people find that the same old, same old, then dont read my thread!!


Bravo Harm!
Harmony,

I know my post was long and complex but believe it or not I was not in that post advising you to divorce. Read it again please. The only time I even mention divorce is in the last part where to divorce or stay married is MOOT if you do not get the foundation of marriage down pat.

To say "Harmony you should get a divorce" is not the solution because it is way way way too simple. You need a complex all encompassing solution right now and part of what you say you are doing, growing up, learning, etc which is great.

Divorce would be easier than really doing the hard hard work of honing out your morals, values, what you want in another person, how you are going to be as a wife, etc.

You don't need to divorce right now to learn this other stuff. Really you don't.

You can learn it while being married to this one. Even separated from him you can learn.

I hope you re- read this (long post of mine)again and discover the complexities so you can gain some other direction...

What I am saying is that even if you did make a marriage mistake marrying this man, and even if you are now separated, and even if he proves to be an alcoholic or abusive, that you can learn and do not have to do anything about a divorce right now. After all he is not over your house beating you is he?

Leave it alone and get to more working on yourself and learning. You can do it.
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Harmony,

I know my post was long and complex but believe it or not I was not in that post advising you to divorce. Read it again please. The only time I even mention divorce is in the last part where to divorce or stay married is MOOT if you do not get the foundation of marriage down pat.

To say "Harmony you should get a divorce" is not the solution because it is way way way too simple. You need a complex all encompassing solution right now and part of what you say you are doing, growing up, learning, etc which is great.

Divorce would be easier than really doing the hard hard work of honing out your morals, values, what you want in another person, how you are going to be as a wife, etc.

You don't need to divorce right now to learn this other stuff. Really you don't.

You can learn it while being married to this one. Even separated from him you can learn.

I hope you re- read this (long post of mine)again and discover the complexities so you can gain some other direction...

What I am saying is that even if you did make a marriage mistake marrying this man, and even if you are now separated, and even if he proves to be an alcoholic or abusive, that you can learn and do not have to do anything about a divorce right now. After all he is not over your house beating you is he?

Leave it alone and get to more working on yourself and learning. You can do it.


I will re read, when I haven't had a glass of vino flirt

Seriously I know where you are heading with this, and I know I have way more work to do. It will never stop I am sure. I just think you under estimate the stage I am at, I am way further down the road. I am stil learning though, I just had my 2 books arrive from Amazon 'Torn Asunder' and 'Love Must be tough'.

I have learnt so much here, I really wanted to learn all this stuff, well way back, but just never got it. So its great being here. At a time in my life when I should be a complete wreck, somewhere I am holding it together and actually feel ok.

So something must be working. Because if this was 5 years ago, I would be in a white coat right now.

I still think I have 'men issues'. I think I have set the bar way too low as far as men in my life are concerned. Thtas because of the standard that I have been given in the past. I never had a father who showed me what I should expect. My father was always very distant, to put you in the picture, my niece when to the same school as me and my Dad came to see her in a show and my Dad said this is a nice school how did you find out about this? I said Dad, bro and I went to this school. I am OK with that, well I have to be not much choice, but you don't know what your missing if you have never had it right? So now I look and observe and see what I should actually expect out of a 'marriage.

Yeah I know I have way to go. I am still here and still learning. sigh

Thanks so much for posting Bubbles, I really get you.

I guess my biggest fear is that my H won't grow with me, I fear that because I love him and truly want the best for him. I know I have to put a time limit on that.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
I feel like most of your very short "marriage" was spent in having affairs and disrespecting one another.
That's what I've been missing: how long have you been married, Harmony?


Oh 3 and half blissful happy years!! Each day better than the other.

rotflmao
..Oh 3 and half blissful happy years!! Each day better than the other.

rotflmao [/quote]
Your just getting started lol.

You have had a shot and lesson of relationships and are attacking the problem, not the people. Do you realize how many marriages exist where things are covered up, minimized and left to fester untill everything besides the marriage was concentrated on, as the whole point of the relationship was lost while under the surface, they blamed each other?

If he had given you children, think how much more guilt you would feel. This has been a gift in disguise.

Did you notice how what Bubs said did not make you waver in your resolve? Its progress Harm.

Did I summerize the situation correctly before? It was new readers who wont be able to read the whole thread, and process the stages you went through or unclear of the details or progress of your attitude. It was also a way to ask you how you see it, not a way to dictate the way it was from my perspective. Allways take what is true and speaks to you, and trash the rest, while you reason this all out.

I think you are progressing, not because you are complient to what we are suggesting, but because I see your objectivity improving, along with your resolve to do the right thing for what I know you want, a healthy and happy marrige.

This saying just came to mind and its funny. Hope you enjoy it.

"Momma told me there would be days like this, but not so damn many of them in a row"

Feels like that sometimes huh?

It will take time as you process all this, and you will look back at it as a gift of learning but as you realize now, you can't see the forest through the trees when the drama and pain is so close. Don't worry, we wont let you get back into the marriage without making sure you have covered all the bases. Its not "marriage at any cost", and it was never supposed to be.

Now we will see plan B do its magic, and pray your WH will start seeing you were a gift too. I believe with you he is capable. Hands off him till he comes to that point. Just take care of you.
Ok guys I need your help here.

I am working from home today, and H just turned up at the front door. He could not get in the house and rang the doorbell.

I opened the window and asked him what he wanted, he said he needed to get something from the house. So I let him in.

When he came in the house, I went upstairs, and stayed out of the way. He started trying to talk to me from downstairs, I was very blase and just answered his questions politely.

He didn't like that at all, and he walked off, I ignored him and carried on about my business. I thought he left the house and went into the kitchen, he was sat there.

This is how the conversation went:

Me: What you doing here? I though you had gone.

H: No I am still here (sat looking all upset and miserable)

Me: What do you want? You have got what you needed haven't you?(I started to leave the room)

H: Harmony talk to me!

Me: OK what do you want?

H: I went away, it did me a lot of good, I did a lot of thinking, I really missed you. I wish that I had gone away with you.

I just stayed slient and I didnt respond for what seemed like forever.

H: Do you hate me for going away?

Me: I don't hate you, I agree that we need this time alone, it is helping me reflect on things.

H: Really? What have you been thinking?

Me: I just agree that we both need this time alone.

H: Hmmm, ok. Will you see me? Can I take you out? What you doing tonight?

Me: I have a lot of work to do at the moment.

H: Can I call you later?

Me: OK.

Then he stayed we had a cup of tea and then he just didn't stop telling me about his snowboarding trip asking me lots and being completely over eager.

So advice please, what do i do if he calls? Do I go see him? I am thinking go meet him, and tell him that unless he is interested in sitting down and putting a plan together there is no point in meeting again.

I am obviously pleased and surprised but want to tread carefully I actually feel quite complacent about it.

God I love him though. My heart nearly went through the roof when he came to the house.

OK steady she goes?
I am not sure if this is a genuine olive branch, it feels like it is, he appeared pretty desperate.

Not sure how to respond and guidance would be much appreciated.
Harmony,

Maybe you could meet him in a neutral place and you ask him what his plan is and what his thoughts are..........
Get your list of things that have to change in the relationship and what you want and need to make it work........
Just see what he has to say..............don't expect anything different from him, but keep an open mind, maybe he has had enough time to reflect and figure out what he wants and what he is willing to do..............
I would listen more than speak................
Stay strong...........
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/07/11 02:34 PM
Harmony, I thought you were in a dark Plan B.

Does dark Plan B include opening the window and asking him what he wants?
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I am not sure if this is a genuine olive branch, it feels like it is, he appeared pretty desperate.

Not sure how to respond and guidance would be much appreciated.

I thought you were in Plan B? crazy Did he end his affair and commit to working on the marriage? That should be the only reason he would be allowed in the house and to talk to you.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I am not sure if this is a genuine olive branch, it feels like it is, he appeared pretty desperate.

Not sure how to respond and guidance would be much appreciated.

I thought you were in Plan B? crazy Did he end his affair and commit to working on the marriage? That should be the only reason he would be allowed in the house and to talk to you.


Thanks Melody, I get you.

I should have not allowed him in the house. If he calls I should just answer and say 'are you commited to the marriage and have you ended your affairs'?

The hard work never stops...........

sigh
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I am not sure if this is a genuine olive branch, it feels like it is, he appeared pretty desperate.

Not sure how to respond and guidance would be much appreciated.

I thought you were in Plan B? crazy Did he end his affair and commit to working on the marriage? That should be the only reason he would be allowed in the house and to talk to you.


Thanks Melody, I get you.

I should have not allowed him in the house. If he calls I should just answer and say 'are you commited to the marriage and have you ended your affairs'?

The hard work never stops...........

sigh

I would not take his call at all. Let him prove his sincerity to your IM.
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/07/11 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
If he calls I should just answer ...?

NO
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/07/11 02:51 PM
Have you even given him the new letter?
I haven't given him the letter yet, the last contact I had with him was a text message telling him that unless he was willing to commit to the marriage then leave me alone, I have written the letter I just haven't given it to him yet.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I haven't given him the letter yet, the last contact I had with him was a text message telling him that unless he was willing to commit to the marriage then leave me alone, I have written the letter I just haven't given it to him yet.


ahhh, I gotcha! You are not really in Plan B yet. Do you have an IM set up?
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/07/11 02:58 PM
Have you posted the letter here? If so, I missed it. If not, why don't you go ahead and post so we can give you feedback ... including adding something in about this latest exchange?
yes my friend.

I have the letter just need to give it to him.

Guys I will be honest, I am feeling weak, I am finding it hard to get the strength to reject him, as this is the first time he has really told me he misses me and loves me. He has also asked to take me away.

I need to find the strength here.

He is going to call tonight and I agree to it, well by saying 'ok.

What do I do?
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
So advice please, what do i do if he calls? Do I go see him? I am thinking go meet him, and tell him that unless he is interested in sitting down and putting a plan together there is no point in meeting again.


ok, I am somewhat caught up on the situation. When he calls Harmony, tell him you will only resume contact if he agrees to end his affair<s>, move home and work on the marriage. Otherwise there is nothing to discuss.

What he is doing is trying to get it set up where he has you AND his OW. That is the first thing a WS attempts to achieve. And if he can get away with it, he will do it! He would rather YOU make the adjustment than him.

If you don't take this stance, you are damning yourself to a death of a thousand cuts.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
yes my friend.

I have the letter just need to give it to him.

Guys I will be honest, I am feeling weak, I am finding it hard to get the strength to reject him, as this is the first time he has really told me he misses me and loves me. He has also asked to take me away.

I need to find the strength here.

He is going to call tonight and I agree to it, well by saying 'ok.

What do I do?
He is missing you and the needs of his that you are meeting. Harmony, you are in a very good spot, here! Know your position of power!

I would stick to my guns and politely, gently tell him that you will be happy to meet and talk with him about your future together. When he gets rid of OW. If you are in Plan B, do this through your IM.
If he won't agree to your terms, then change the locks and send the letter. I predict he will be back soon - ON YOUR CONDITIONS - if you take a firm stance!!
DH

Words cannot describe how sorry I am for creating this mess, if only I could turn back time things would be so different. It is the worst decision I have ever made, and one that I will always regret for the rest of my life. I know I put you through incredible pain, both through the affair, treatment of you and lies. I am ashamed of my behaviour.

I honestly believe that it was a self destructive cry for help rather than a love affair. I should have told you the truth before the A, that I was struggling, that I needed your love, support, time and attention. I thought if I had to ask for it, it meant that you didn�t love me. I have realised that I have self destructive coping skills that surface when I am faced with difficult situations. The stressful new job, the house move, the house building, in law issues, your business finance issues, the wedding, the fertility problems, Dads cancer, all took its toll and I did not know how to cope.

In the past 6 months, which has been very tough I have used this time to work on me and implement new coping tools, as this would have been prime time for me to get self destructive, but I have made it on my own and learnt to cope with some pretty tough [censored] and be strong without doing anything destructive.

I have learnt that in order to receive forgiveness I need to give it too. I do not want to have a contest of who hurt each other more, or whose decision was worse than the other it is a waste of time. What I do want to do is apply new principles from the ground up, it�s what I have been waiting for �..but I cannot build a marriage alone. I still believe we can have a wonderful marriage one day if we truly made a DOUBLE effort at it with both of us.

Until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will be having no communication with you, and I will avoid seeing you. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you. If you need anything urgent please speak to Dawn.

For reconciliation to happen the following would need to happen before making a commitment, I have done some of them already and would be willing to join you in all of them:

> No contact with the other women for the rest of your life.
> A full confession.....an ability to be totally open and honest with me about anything I ask about whenever I ask.
> A sincere, remorseful apology...for the pain and suffering you have caused me
> Complete transparency to each other in all areas of our life (to all phones, emails, credit card bills and receipts, passwords, facebook etc)
> Sit down together and agree a recovery plan for us both which will protect us both and address what we both need from a marriage and what we are willing to give. Examples include,

Spending time together
Stop doing things that cause each other unhappiness e.g. solo holidays, angry outbursts, criticising, lies�
Doing things for each other which makes us happy e.g buying cakes!, arranging days out, supportive of business, consideration of others feelings, involving family�
Complete honesty about everything including thoughts both positive and negative about each other�s behaviour, whereabouts, hopes for the future�

I truly love you H, and love being with you, that�s why I wanted to marry you. I want to have a happy fun life, doing all the amazing things we have talked about, you know what I mean. I want to be with you for the rest of my life.

I love you always, Harmony
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/07/11 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
When he calls Harmony, tell him you will only resume contact if he agrees to end his affair<s>, move home and work on the marriage. Otherwise there is nothing to discuss.

But can you do this, Harmony?

Can you keep it only at that?

From what we've seen from your history, you will allow much more to be said. And then your stance will weaken.

I still think the letter is best. Firm but loving. No chance for you to melt.

Do not under any circumstances meet with him, IMO. You are not strong against his advances and may end up in bed with him ... again.
Is this your Plan B letter, Harmony? It's pretty long, and you're taking on the lion's share of blame for the damage to your M. I wouldn't do that. You both share responsibility for the state of your M.

Can you trim it down a bit and take out the self-beating that you've got in there? You don't deserve all of that.
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/07/11 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
the last contact I had with him was a text message telling him that unless he was willing to commit to the marriage then leave me alone

What's changed?

See, you've already laid out your condition. You need to state all your conditions clearly in the letter.

So, he misses and loves you. Great. I know that's what you want to hear.

But it's not enough, is it?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
If he won't agree to your terms, then change the locks and send the letter. I predict he will be back soon - ON YOUR CONDITIONS - if you take a firm stance!!


OK thanks so much.

Why do I feel that I am so near the finishing line but just can't summon the strength to get across.

I am happy but feel so exhausted.

I know I am in a position of power here. I have read so many threads here.

He also knows I am going away next week and I think he wants to make sure he sees me before then so I don't get interested in anyone else.

Why did he have to do it today? I am not READY to deal with it!!!


faint
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
DH

Words cannot describe how sorry I am for creating this mess, if only I could turn back time things would be so different. It is the worst decision I have ever made, and one that I will always regret for the rest of my life. I know I put you through incredible pain, both through the affair, treatment of you and lies. I am ashamed of my behaviour and am willing to change to make sure this doesnt even happen again.
I honestly believe that it was a self destructive cry for help rather than a love affair. I should have told you the truth before the A, that I was struggling, that I needed your love, support, time and attention. I thought if I had to ask for it, it meant that you didn�t love me. I have realised that I have self destructive coping skills that surface when I am faced with difficult situations. The stressful new job, the house move, the house building, in law issues, your business finance issues, the wedding, the fertility problems, Dads cancer, all took its toll and I did not know how to cope. [sounds like excuses - take this all out]

In the past 6 months, which has been very tough I have used this time to work on me and implement new coping tools, as this would have been prime time for me to get self destructive, but I have made it on my own and learnt to cope with some pretty tough [censored] and be strong without doing anything destructive.not relevant to the issue.

I have learnt that in order to receive forgiveness I need to give it too. I do not want to have a contest of who hurt each other more, or whose decision was worse than the other it is a waste of time. What I do want to do is apply new principles from the ground up, it�s what I have been waiting for �..but I cannot build a marriage alone. I still believe we can have a wonderful marriage one day if we truly made a DOUBLE effort at it with both of us.

Until you can end your affair truthfully and honestly and return home and work with me on commit to rebuilding our marriage, I will be having no communication with you, and I will avoid seeing you. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you. If you need anything urgent please speak to Dawn. Any necessary contact about finances or the children should go through Dawn.

For reconciliation to happen the following would need to happen before making a commitment, I have done some of them already and would be willing to join you in all of them:

> No contact with the other women for the rest of your life.
> A full confession.....an ability to be totally open and honest with me about anything I ask about whenever I ask.
> A sincere, remorseful apology...for the pain and suffering you have caused me
> Complete transparency to each other in all areas of our life (to all phones, emails, credit card bills and receipts, passwords, facebook etc)
> Sit down together and agree a recovery plan for us both which will protect us both and address what we both need from a marriage and what we are willing to give. Examples include,

Spending time together
Stop doing things that cause each other unhappiness e.g. solo holidays, angry outbursts, criticising, lies�
Doing things for each other which makes us happy e.g buying cakes!, arranging days out, supportive of business, consideration of others feelings, involving family�
Complete honesty about everything including thoughts both positive and negative about each other�s behaviour, whereabouts, hopes for the future�
<----all this can be hashed out when he agrees to end his affair and move home.

I truly love you H, and love being with you, that�s why I wanted to marry you. I want to have a happy fun life, doing all the amazing things we have talked about, you know what I mean. I want to be with you for the rest of my life.

I love you always, Harmony
Originally Posted by Delta_
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
the last contact I had with him was a text message telling him that unless he was willing to commit to the marriage then leave me alone

What's changed?

See, you've already laid out your condition. You need to state all your conditions clearly in the letter.

So, he misses and loves you. Great. I know that's what you want to hear.

But it's not enough, is it?


Nowhere near enough. He has no idea.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
DH

Words cannot describe how sorry I am for creating this mess, if only I could turn back time things would be so different. It is the worst decision I have ever made, and one that I will always regret for the rest of my life. I know I put you through incredible pain, both through the affair, treatment of you and lies. I am ashamed of my behaviour and am willing to change to make sure this doesnt even happen again.
I honestly believe that it was a self destructive cry for help rather than a love affair. I should have told you the truth before the A, that I was struggling, that I needed your love, support, time and attention. I thought if I had to ask for it, it meant that you didn&#146;t love me. I have realised that I have self destructive coping skills that surface when I am faced with difficult situations. The stressful new job, the house move, the house building, in law issues, your business finance issues, the wedding, the fertility problems, Dads cancer, all took its toll and I did not know how to cope. [sounds like excuses - take this all out]

In the past 6 months, which has been very tough I have used this time to work on me and implement new coping tools, as this would have been prime time for me to get self destructive, but I have made it on my own and learnt to cope with some pretty tough [censored] and be strong without doing anything destructive.not relevant to the issue.

I have learnt that in order to receive forgiveness I need to give it too. I do not want to have a contest of who hurt each other more, or whose decision was worse than the other it is a waste of time. What I do want to do is apply new principles from the ground up, it&#146;s what I have been waiting for &#133;..but I cannot build a marriage alone. I still believe we can have a wonderful marriage one day if we truly made a DOUBLE effort at it with both of us.

Until you can end your affair truthfully and honestly and return home and work with me on commit to rebuilding our marriage, I will be having no communication with you, and I will avoid seeing you. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you. If you need anything urgent please speak to Dawn. Any necessary contact about finances or the children should go through Dawn.

For reconciliation to happen the following would need to happen before making a commitment, I have done some of them already and would be willing to join you in all of them:

> No contact with the other women for the rest of your life.
> A full confession.....an ability to be totally open and honest with me about anything I ask about whenever I ask.
> A sincere, remorseful apology...for the pain and suffering you have caused me
> Complete transparency to each other in all areas of our life (to all phones, emails, credit card bills and receipts, passwords, facebook etc)
> Sit down together and agree a recovery plan for us both which will protect us both and address what we both need from a marriage and what we are willing to give. Examples include,

Spending time together
Stop doing things that cause each other unhappiness e.g. solo holidays, angry outbursts, criticising, lies&#133;
Doing things for each other which makes us happy e.g buying cakes!, arranging days out, supportive of business, consideration of others feelings, involving family&#133;
Complete honesty about everything including thoughts both positive and negative about each other&#146;s behaviour, whereabouts, hopes for the future&#133;
<----all this can be hashed out when he agrees to end his affair and move home.

I truly love you H, and love being with you, that&#146;s why I wanted to marry you. I want to have a happy fun life, doing all the amazing things we have talked about, you know what I mean. I want to be with you for the rest of my life.

I love you always, Harmony


OK cool thank you Melody. Much better.
can I text him the PLan B letter?
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
[
Why do I feel that I am so near the finishing line but just can't summon the strength to get across.

You are in a GREAT position right now to have it ALL if you will simply put aside your emotions and stick to a plan. SEe, he wants you back badly, BUT he is testing you to see if he can you back on HIS TERMS. Go back on his terms and you are SCREWED and do not have marriage. His "terms" are to have you and his OW. He is just testing to see if he can have that.

If you hold out for your conditions, I predict you will get them. You are in a PERFECT position today to get this. He will be thinking of you all day long and thinking he can have you AND the OW. When you tell him he has to dump her to get you, he will be much more likely to do that.

BUT, you have to stay firm and back up your standards with ACTIONS. That means you tell him what I said above. And DO NOT see him before you go because that will give him an opportunity to get a FIX of you before you go and then change his mind while you are gone. BETTER TO HOLD OUT AND MAKE HIM WAIT! grin That way he will be thinking of you all the time you are gone.

THEN, when you get back he will be more inclined to dump the OW and meet all your conditions!
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
can I text him the PLan B letter?

noooooooooo, hand write that baby!! And stick it in the mail on your way out of town.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
[
Why do I feel that I am so near the finishing line but just can't summon the strength to get across.

You are in a GREAT position right now to have it ALL if you will simply put aside your emotions and stick to a plan. SEe, he wants you back badly, BUT he is testing you to see if he can you back on HIS TERMS. Go back on his terms and you are SCREWED and do not have marriage. His "terms" are to have you and his OW. He is just testing to see if he can have that.

If you hold out for your conditions, I predict you will get them. You are in a PERFECT position today to get this. He will be thinking of you all day long and thinking he can have you AND the OW. When you tell him he has to dump her to get you, he will be much more likely to do that.

BUT, you have to stay firm and back up your standards with ACTIONS. That means you tell him what I said above. And DO NOT see him before you go because that will give him an opportunity to get a FIX of you before you go and then change his mind while you are gone. BETTER TO HOLD OUT AND MAKE HIM WAIT! grin That way he will be thinking of you all the time you are gone.

THEN, when you get back he will be more inclined to dump the OW and meet all your conditions!


OK I agree when he calls I will say (i am going to have to write it down and just read it), are you prepared to end all contact with other women, be commited to the marriage and move back home)?

Good job I don't have to do it in person.

rotflmao

As far as I am aware there is no OW, not to say that there hasn't been. Ofcourse thats not to say there isn't but as far as I am concerned there is no one else.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
can I text him the PLan B letter?

noooooooooo, hand write that baby!! And stick it in the mail on your way out of town.



no rest for the wicked???

No......... Nooo
Did he get the letter yet?
Originally Posted by Delta_
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
When he calls Harmony, tell him you will only resume contact if he agrees to end his affair<s>, move home and work on the marriage. Otherwise there is nothing to discuss.

But can you do this, Harmony?

Can you keep it only at that?

From what we've seen from your history, you will allow much more to be said. And then your stance will weaken.

I still think the letter is best. Firm but loving. No chance for you to melt.

Do not under any circumstances meet with him, IMO. You are not strong against his advances and may end up in bed with him ... again.

Zactly how I see it too

In your letter you display hope and a plan

In person you either totally break or seem distant to him.


Like Mel said too, (although you have allready changed the locks), Get an IM and refuse to let his emotional attempt to fence sit put you back in the position of dieing the death of a thousand cuts.

Your in plan B, a lot of people have been exactly where you are now, take thier advice. He needs even more time and to agrre with the conditions in the letter. Be aggressive in the PLAN, not your FEELINGS. The feelings are all jumbled up right now. Don't worry, he will not quit if you follow ther plan and gets offended by the letter, but he might get mad and set you both back if you see him face to face and emotionally struggle with reactionary jargon. That will set you back.

Have hope and faith in the plan harm, don't rush in, Dark plan B.

Now that said, hurray, I TOLD YOU SO.. NAH, nee,nahnee, nah nah.. Lighten up, take a breath, and rejoice!! The plan is doin its magic!
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by Delta_
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
When he calls Harmony, tell him you will only resume contact if he agrees to end his affair<s>, move home and work on the marriage. Otherwise there is nothing to discuss.

But can you do this, Harmony?

Can you keep it only at that?

From what we've seen from your history, you will allow much more to be said. And then your stance will weaken.

I still think the letter is best. Firm but loving. No chance for you to melt.

Do not under any circumstances meet with him, IMO. You are not strong against his advances and may end up in bed with him ... again.

Zactly how I see it too

In your letter you display hope and a plan

In person you either totally break or seem distant to him.


Like Mel said too, (although you have allready changed the locks), Get an IM and refuse to let his emotional attempt to fence sit put you back in the position of dieing the death of a thousand cuts.

Your in plan B, a lot of people have been exactly where you are now, take thier advice. He needs even more time and to agrre with the conditions in the letter. Be aggressive in the PLAN, not your FEELINGS. The feelings are all jumbled up right now. Don't worry, he will not quit if you follow ther plan and gets offended by the letter, but he might get mad and set you both back if you see him face to face and emotionally struggle with reactionary jargon. That will set you back.

Have hope and faith in the plan harm, don't rush in, Dark plan B.

Now that said, hurray, I TOLD YOU SO.. NAH, nee,nahnee, nah nah.. Lighten up, take a breath, and rejoice!! The plan is doin its magic!


Okey Dokey.

I wish he picked a better day!!!
Originally Posted by Delta_
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
When he calls Harmony, tell him you will only resume contact if he agrees to end his affair<s>, move home and work on the marriage. Otherwise there is nothing to discuss.

But can you do this, Harmony?

Can you keep it only at that?

From what we've seen from your history, you will allow much more to be said. And then your stance will weaken.

I still think the letter is best. Firm but loving. No chance for you to melt.

Do not under any circumstances meet with him, IMO. You are not strong against his advances and may end up in bed with him ... again.

I would listen to Delta on this point. She knows you better than I do.
I can do the phone call, it is important for me to do this BIG PANTS TIME.

I will give him the letter too.

I will just simply say, I meant what I said in the text message I sent before Christmas I don't want any contact unless you are commited to a plan to rebuild the marriage, move home and end all contact with other women.

If he says anything appart from yes, then I will say then there isn't anything left to talk about.

The good thing is now he is thinking he is going to see me, so he will be looking forward to that...
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I should have not allowed him in the house. If he calls I should just answer and say 'are you commited to the marriage and have you ended your affairs'?

The hard work never stops...........

sigh

See? Perfect example. You know what should have come out of your mouth, but couldn't say it to his face. Niether of you are ready to talk face to face without triggering from each other stuff that would result in more confusion and the blame game. If he does what the letter has so clearly pointed out he you wont have to ask that question to his face, you will allready know he is commited to you and a plan and a whole new life Which he has then proven he is eager and willing to have.


Letter,, IM,, Stay Dark...
OK Harm, "BIG PANTS THING", lol, I knew you had it in you.

Just do what you said about the call, and don't react if he gets mad. Give him the letter if he you think he wont be dramatic and throw it away right now. He is just coming out of the fog a little, so don't be surprised by ANY reaction he has.

Just one question - what happens when I can him and say my speech and he agrees to all of it?

What do I do then? Do I go meet him?
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Just one question - what happens when I can him and say my speech and he agrees to all of it?

What do I do then? Do I go meet him?

NO!! Tell him to work on a plan for recovery and when you get back you can sit down and discuss it. TELL HIM YOU WANT TO TAKE THIS SLOWLY. Be very guarded.

If he is serious, he will wait until you come back. My concern about you seeing him today is that he wants to get a fix before you go so he can have fun while you are gone.

When you get back, see what his plan is for recovery and ask how he knows he is ready. What are his plans to ensure to YOU that there are no OW in his life?

Remain very guarded and say that it is not that you do not care, but that you just want to ease into R.

Slow and cautious.


Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Just one question - what happens when I can him and say my speech and he agrees to all of it?

What do I do then? Do I go meet him?

NO!! Tell him to work on a plan for recovery and when you get back you can sit down and discuss it. TELL HIM YOU WANT TO TAKE THIS SLOWLY. Be very guarded.

If he is serious, he will wait until you come back. My concern about you seeing him today is that he wants to get a fix before you go so he can have fun while you are gone.

When you get back, see what his plan is for recovery and ask how he knows he is ready. What are his plans to ensure to YOU that there are no OW in his life?

Remain very guarded and say that it is not that you do not care, but that you just want to ease into R.

Slow and cautious.

Yup Yup and Yup
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/07/11 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I will give him the letter too.

When?
Ok just come off the phone with H. This is kind of how it went but the main messages are there...

H: Hello - Do you fancy grabbing a bite to eat later?

Me: I still stand by the text message I sent before Christmas, that there is no point meeting unless it is to talk about a plan to build the marriaege.

H: Oh ok (sounded very disappointed).

Me: Unless you want to meet up and talk about how we recover the marriage then I do not want to meet up, I don't see the point. I have met up with you before and it has not gone anywhere and I am not doing it anymore.

H: Ok I understand, but there does not seem any point talking about that until after you get back from holiday. The last holiday you went on (india he was refering to where the affair started) you changed your mind.

Me: Well I have been consistent in wanting to recover the marriage for a year now so I am not going to make a change in 1 week

H: OK I think we should talk after your holiday though, as then we both sit down and agree how to move forward properly and there is nothing in the way.

Me: I agree there is no point meeting before I go on holiday but you need to use this time to think about your plans to recover the marriage and you also need to think how you are going to assure me that there are no OW in your life?

H: Ok I understand. OK then well, have a nice time then...Take care won't you (he sounded teary)

Me: OK I will, bye.

OK I did the best I could, I thought i did pretty well considering. He is stalling, he is not ready. There were lots of silences, he really doesn't know what to say or do, he wasn't prepared for that.

Why is he stalling? He just needed his fix right frown
Originally Posted by Delta_
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I will give him the letter too.

When?

She should have given him the letter already yep. But now her integrity will be challenged if she doesn't give to him now.

He will see any polite communication she might have with him on the phone as acceptance of what he wants to act like, and the Plan B letter will make him feel torpedoed, again.

If she could just boldy walk up to him and say one sentence and hand him the letter, that sentence should be..

"Look I still love you, and in time we can work it all out, but I just can't and refuse to talk about it at the moment. Here is a letter from my heart, take it and read it and then we will talk if you agree with it. I still need time alone as you do also. I can see you are doing better, I am too. Lets go to our own corners and do some more thinking OK? I am going to one way or another. Talk to my Intermediary contact if you want to know anything appropiate about me and after you process the letter otherwise don't text me, call me, drive by, or interupt my peace unless you are bleeding and in the hospital. I wont contact you either. Lets give each other that respect OK?"

His suspicions could drive him batty and he could react, but if you could pull this off in a public place and then just leave with a smile and a quick hug, a scene would be avoided and the letter re-enforces your resolve, and love Harm.


Who could be your IM? You need one. I would offer my services if I thought it appropiate because you need one so bad, but I would only be temporary at best. The best would be a woman allready married who knows your sitch and has been coached on how to IM. He needs to be able to contact you, but face to face is to dangerous.

Don't be to proud in this, you know what that will get you. Find an IM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Ok just come off the phone with H.

H: Hello - Do you fancy grabbing a bite to eat later?

Me: I still stand by the text message I sent before Christmas, that there is no point meeting unless it is to talk about a plan to build the marriaege.

H: Oh ok (sounded very disappointed).

Me: Unless you want to meet up and talk about how we recover the marriage then I do not want to meet up, I don't see the point. I have met up with you before and it has not gone anywhere and I am not doing it anymore.

H: Ok I understand, but there does not seem any point talking about that after you get back from holiday. The last holiday you went on (india he was refering to where the affair started) you changed your mind.

Me: Well I have been consistent in wanting to recover the marriage for a year now so 1 week isn't going to make a difference.

H: OK I think we should talk after the holiday as then we both sit down and agree how to move forward for good with nothing in the way, and then we can move on properly.

Me: I agree there is no point meeting before I go on holiday but you need to use this time to think about your plans to recover the marriage and you also need to think how you are going to assure me that there are no OW in your life?

H: Ok I agree with that. OK then well, have a nice time then...Take care won't you (he sounded teary)

Me: OK I will, bye.

OK I did the best I could, I thought i did pretty well considering. He is stalling, he is not ready.
You did well. Get the letter to him and get an IM.
OK I have put the letter in the letter box, even though I have been transfering his post, he still comes to the house like he did today.

Hmm, is there any hope?

Is this normal procedure for WS reaction to Plan B...?
Hang in there! You have alot of people here supporting you.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Me: Unless you want to meet up and talk about how we recover the marriage then I do not want to meet up, I don't see the point. I have met up with you before and it has not gone anywhere and I am not doing it anymore.

H: Ok I understand, but there does not seem any point talking about that until after you get back from holiday. The last holiday you went on (india he was refering to where the affair started) you changed your mind.

Me: Well I have been consistent in wanting to recover the marriage for a year now so I am not going to make a change in 1 week

H: OK I think we should talk after your holiday though, as then we both sit down and agree how to move forward properly and there is nothing in the way.

Me: I agree there is no point meeting before I go on holiday but you need to use this time to think about your plans to recover the marriage and you also need to think how you are going to assure me that there are no OW in your life?

H: Ok I understand. OK then well, have a nice time then...Take care won't you (he sounded teary)

Me: OK I will, bye.

OK I did the best I could, I thought i did pretty well considering. He is stalling, he is not ready. There were lots of silences, he really doesn't know what to say or do, he wasn't prepared for that.

Why is he stalling? He just needed his fix right frown

It sounded like he was reasonable, emotionally effected, but wary about your Holiday and he does not know the work your doing, or the progress you have made.

He wants a fix, and its you, not just a domestic, the way it used to be, at least it seems he really wants to work it out, but doesn't have a plan. I think you should give him the books from Dr H to read after you give him the letter,(Which you have no way of knowing if and when he accually got them), ah well, certified mail was my suggestion.
The books would help him understand what happened, and see what a plan looks like, so he had something to look forward to. Heck he might be very gung ho about it. He needs to see it for himself still.

He is stalling because he doesn't trust you, or a plan, just like you didn't trust the plan B at first, or probably us either. Its normal. He will need the plan next.

Did you catch that he said , "after the holiday and there is nothing in the way"? Sounds like he wants it fixed, but doesn't know how, and he sees separation as a problem. He has the ability to respond.

You still have to deal with your fears of entrapment back into the marriage too Harm. Staying dark is part of that also.

Trust in the plan.
Get an IM

TTYL
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/07/11 06:36 PM
Giving him the books after giving him the Plan B letter would be yet another break in plan B.
Originally Posted by Scotland
Giving him the books after giving him the Plan B letter would be yet another break in plan B.


yeah sure, good point Scotland.

letter is waiting for him.

thank you all.
I haven't even read the last 5 pages just wanted to say good luck you will never change, he will never change, and you will never recover your marriage.

I'm out.

See ya
@Harmony2010 -

Is there anyway that Harmony's Wayward (HW) can recognize you from your screen name. If so change soonest.

Did google search: marriage recovery

2nd link is How to Survive Infidelity
Originally Posted by clark_kent
@Harmony2010 -

Is there anyway that Harmony's Wayward (HW) can recognize you from your screen name. If so change soonest.

Did google search: marriage recovery

2nd link is How to Survive Infidelity


no I dont think so Clark...don't think he has come into this forum before, thanks anyway.

Originally Posted by SapphireReturns
I haven't even read the last 5 pages just wanted to say good luck you will never change, he will never change, and you will never recover your marriage.

I'm out.

See ya


see ya
Originally Posted by clark_kent
@Harmony2010 -

Is there anyway that Harmony's Wayward (HW) can recognize you from your screen name. If so change soonest.

Did google search: marriage recovery

2nd link is How to Survive Infidelity

It's the #1 search result for "coping with infidelity." That's how I landed here. smile

Also "infidelity and overcoming resentment."

Harmony, I thought you were gonna quit having a piss-poor plan B this year?

Darken up again!
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/08/11 01:55 AM
Ms. Harmony,

Just my h/o now, but I honestly think that you are and have been for the last few weeks allowing yourself to be molly-coddled by some of the people here. That is meant not to be disrespect for those who have responded to you here. It is directed at you. Of course people are going to be concerned about you and what you are going thru, but God in Heaven Ms. Harm, you cannot go willy-nilly back and forth and continuing to expect others to cater to you and your indecision! This is probably one of the most important decisions in your life and you seem to be willy-nilly treating it as an on-going day-to-day soap opera. I have no doubt you love your H, but either you are in a Plan B or you are not. Either you have respect for yourself, and a healthy respect to challenge yourself from this point forward or you don't. Either you hold to the high standards you have stated for a reconciliation or you don't.

I will state frankly, in my layman's terms, that the disagreement I had with Just Learning, which now includes Constant, is that you can babble and psychoanalyze all day long and you will get no farther than you are now. As much as I do respect Constant and his life situation, and his comments on other threads, I truely believe that some people can unwittingly cause others to become dependent - to the point of wavering in their puspose and questioning their motives. That is where I see you now. Having the convresation with your H that you did, whether thru a window or otherwise, and then inviting him to call you and worrying about what to say to him has most likely set you back several weeks regarding your decision to enter a PLan B and your attempt to save your M. As a guy, I would interpret that as the woman finally giving in - a free ride - things are back to normal with no consequences or no regrets! Believe me, I have had this attitude with my W at times and sometimes it worked. Did I feel better or that I did the right thing? No. Juat that I won at that moment. Of course, your will be tempted to babble about this for the next week or so to anyone who will listen.

Okay, Ms. Harm, harsh yes. A 2 x 4. yes and a big one. No skin off my a$$ if a month from now you are in the same position you are now. Except simply that I care about you as a human being believe it or not. There is the provincial story about Vince Lombardi, who was a former coach of the Green Bay Packers, being so pi$$ed off after his team lost a game that in the following team meeting he sarcastically held a football up when he spoke to his players and said: "gentlemen, this is a football". The players knew excactly what he was doing - both ridiculing their poor efforts in the game they lost and also challenging them. They had 'played down' to their oppenent and lost. Please don't play down to your H and lose.

Well, Ms. Harm I think I better move on from here to other purposes as sometimes this site is pretty frustrating and I am not the most kind and politically correct person in the world.

My best wishes and good luck to you.

Tom







Does anyone think with me that WH is showing progress, but should have some of the materials presented here. I mean for Harmony and his sake in a plan and also communication.

DoNoMo had great success after his wife read SAA and Fall in love, Stay in love.

True Scotty that would be breaking Plan B, Maybe her IM,(did you get one yet Harm? Come on Gurl!) could have the titles and sources available if he wants contact and doesn't know what to do next. Does that work for everybody?

Ok Tom, I really appreciate your wisdom. and reading about your history has been impressive, but jeez, she is still unstable and her mind is racing back and forth all over. Sorry if you see me as "molly-coddling" her Sir. I am just attempting to understand while at the same time give her different perspectives.

"molly-coddling", did you know my grandfather? No disrespect Tom. I know what you mean.

As far as pysco-babble I am sure she is doing the "analyisis dance" in her head anyway. I have been after Harm to get in a dark plan B forever now. I may be a hand-holder but I am confidant she needs some of that along with patience to figure out her sitch. Telling her to "hurry up" is exactly what might drive her to "give up". She is nervous and anxious but she still loves her husband and He She. I am not confused in this I'm certain.

So Harm please get an IM. Can you do this? Please tell me if you haven't allready what your plans for one are.

You did awesome today in your phone convo. Now you can go Dark for awhile. Get ready for the part of the ride where you realize after he wants to work on the marriage that maybe you don't want to anymore. That is normal too. It will pass also.

Don't be discouraged by Saphs comment,(OMG there I go mottle-coddling again), you are doing well. Hopefully in a short time you wont need to read my long posts anymore or be here so much because you and H will be working on recovery. Thats my hope, no matter how obsessed I seem to be in helping you, I would rather see you recovered. I can find another poster to help if I need to,(Poor them lol) and you will be checking in with H I hope also occasionally.

Truth is I was elated by your progress today and a tear came to my eye. It inspiring to see what must seem to you forever and then a spark of life both thru your WH reaction, and your clarity on what you want.

Get an IM, then you will have done the right thing towards recovery. the big things still need time apart for you two to both proccess before you do the face to face. I am convinced you are still both afraid of each other. You both need a dream and a plan. An agreed upon plan, a joint plan.
Morning All,

Quick update, just to say that H has the letter now, I modified it as per Melodys suggestion.

I need to stop anymore blips in PLan B, easier said than done sometimes. I am off on holiday now skiing and really need a break from it all, a change of scenery will take my mind of everything that is going on.

Getting frustrated at this site, I don't like swipes at other people posts as at the end of the day everyone is entitled to there say. The freedom of this site is that you can choose to take onboard or ignore comments.

Tom - I take onboard your 2x4 and know I need to toughen up on Plan B. I should not have let him in the house. I did give him the same message though. I know you care and I appreciate that.

Constant - Still know where I am going and no I dodn't feel like your 'molly coddling' me!! I think you have some really good perspectives and insight and also you are good cause your not just there to chime in when I mess up your there when its all quiet and boring in Plan B and I just need a little perspective. You said:

Get ready for the part of the ride where you realize after he wants to work on the marriage that maybe you don't want to anymore. That is normal too. It will pass also.

I am feeling this already the more I have grown the more worried I have become that he won't....I know that might be a DJ but it is more of a fear.

Thanks all see you soon.

Harmony.
Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/09/11 01:40 PM
Have a wonderful and safe 'HOLIDAY', Harmony.

You Brits & your silly words...here they are called VACATIONS...lol

Keep you mind on the slopes!

TEEF
Reading along Harmony, I think you're doing just fine. You may be a turtle about some things but I think you'll eventually reach your goal (personal recovery, definitely!, marital recovery, good possibility).

Good to see that you don't get easily swayed by good-intentioned but off-the-mark posts to you. You'll need that determination if and when you get to marital recovery. You think this is hard? Recovery is harder.

Enjoy your holiday!
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
I feel like most of your very short "marriage" was spent in having affairs and disrespecting one another.

This tells me that you do not really know the meaning of marriage. Or how to have a marriage. Or how to communicate in marriage or be happy in a marriage.

I do realize that you have a compulsive need for a man, any man, especially this man to approve of you, accept you, and like you.

But to me, this seems like a selfish need based on your own neediness which has nothing or very little to do with romantic love. In other words, if you are still so emotionally infantlike or insecure, or have low self worth that you NEED a man to approve you or you won't feel good about yourself, then you will not be able to ever have a happy marriage even if you want one as we all do!.

What makes you think you are ready for marriage in any way?

The more you fret about this husband rejecting you, finding another woman, and dumping you, the more this tells me that you are indeed not ready for any relatinship with a man, especially a marriage. The sad part is that if you are not ready for marriage, then nothing you can do to get this man back will "work" or "succeed". You can learn the meaning of marriage and so can your husband. I just am not sure if you two can (or both of you want to) learn it together and in a few short months.

*I think you need some marital training before you venture back out there dating or getting back with this man (if that is possible).

If I dated a man and we both had affairs in the first few years I would realize that I was not cut out for relationships at that time and needed to get some self esteem and stay away from men. Also I would realize that I was not ready to settle down and rather, needed to meet many people and sow more wild oats.

There are many stages in life we need to all go thru:

You, Harmony seem to be at this stage to me:

1. The sowing wild oats stage where you date different people
2. The "attracting men" "flirting wtih men" and "getting men's attention" stage.
3. The dating stage where you meet new men, date, and have sex with them
4. The "learning about yourself" stage where you discover who you are.
5. The "emotional maturity stage" where you hammer out how you want your life to be and find out how to get there.

If I were you, I would refuse to sell myself short here. Fully explore and get through EACH AND ALL of these stages in your life. With the help of a counselor if you want support. Do not try and jump these "maturing" stages and jump back into a relatinship with this husband or another man.

Why do you not yet realize this fact that you are not and have not been ready for marriage??? What does marriage mean to you? (It did not mean very much given you had a long term affair)

Do you really still believe you are ready for marriage at this time?

The questions I would ask myself if I were you are this:

1. Am I really ready for marriage now?
2. What does marriage mean to me?
3. Can I learn to observe men and recognize red flags rather than jumping into relationships?
4. Can I hold off leaping into relationships with men and start getting some self esteem?
5. Is my husband a suitable marriage partner for me right now?
6. Am I a suitable marriage partner for this husband right now?
7. Are we compatable and both ready for a committed marriage right now or in the near future?
8. Why do I want a man around so badly?
9. What is it I need from a man?
10. Why am I so confused, afraid, insecure, and uncertain?

Ask yourself these and write out your answers in a notebook where you can track your progress.

Your progress in life should address these areas.

You need to progress in:

1. Developing morals/values for yourself
2. Hammering out areas where you are not yet mature
3. Figuring out what things you like and dislike
4. Seeing the talents and qualities you possess
5. Exploring your relationships with men and observing the problems
5. Figuring out where you are weak in self esteem
6. Bolstering and strengthening your self esteem
7. Finding out why you are so needy
8. Figuring out what marriage means to you compared to "dating a man".
9. Discovering how to judge a situation wisely and observe and judge a man wisely.
10. Learning to see people as they really are rather than "how you want them to be" or "how you think they should be or should behave".
11. Learning how to keep immature, toxic or abusive men and women out of your life.

If your foundations for marriage are not there or not developed, then your questions about this husband are moot and will mean nothing in the larger scheme of things since you will not be mature enough or ready for marriage enough...to carry out a marriage even if he does choose to come back.

These things will mean nothing if you are not ready for marriage and have a good self esteem without a man:

Mean nothing:

1. Whether your husband will find a better woman soon than you
2. If your husband will come back or if he won't
3. If he is still cheating on you or not
4. If you can get him back or not
5. If you should stay married or divorce
6. How you can get him back
7. If he loves you or not

None of these mean anything if you are not ready for marriage and mature enough to handle a good marriage and all that it means. You should get down to the roots of why you cheated, why you lied, why you had no morals, and why you are not mature enough not to cheat your whole marriage. And then solve these problems FIRST, before trying to rope this man, who may not be a suitable marriage partner anyway, back to you.

What I fear you have been doing, Harmony, is closing your eyes, and diving into any man near you without even thinking about it. For example, you have been eagerly flirting with other men and relaxing your boundaries around other men. You also try and attract men for attention and to make yourself feel good. These things will not help you. You husband will not help you learn to love and value yourself. Having a man around will not help your self esteem or make you feel "normal" or "better" just as having a child will not make you "normal" or "feel better about yourself" either.

You got a lot of learning, observing, and growing up to do my friend before you attempt to save this marriage or create any other relationships with men at all.


Hey Bubbles

As promised I reread your post. I do see where you coming from and you always push me in my learning, I like that, even though sometimes I read in and think, oh god is that me, harsh? NEXT!

I have come so far, I don't think you realise. I am more sure of my own mind these days, I use to be a bit like a puppet and very naive. I lacked the confidence in my own thinking. I am also happy to hold my hand up and say, yup could do better, or more work to do in that area.

So yes have mulled over your post a little. HArmony home work time......(i actually enjoy this stuff - sicko)

Just so you know I am giving you some HONEST feedback, I am baring my soul here, which also gives certain people 'amo' you know what I mean? Oh well who cares..If you don't like me...byeeeee

Here are some thoughts:

1. Am I really ready for marriage now?
Tough one. Its much harder work than I realised, its funny friends of mine are getting married and everyone is cooing over the enagagement/wedding, I get much more excited about couples who have been married a long time been with each other through thick and thin. So I amn going to be brave and say YES smile
2. What does marriage mean to me?
Commitment, making your partner a priority, consideration, sharing, time, love and not just being there in the good times but there in the bad also.
3. Can I learn to observe men and recognize red flags rather than jumping into relationships?
Well yes, I am more adapt at noticing the 'red flags' there is a lotta guys with a lotta red flags. Red flag examples..a) burst of anger b) talks badly of exes c) mommas boys d) Liars....need I go on....I think the actual danger for me here would benot trusting men at all.
4. Can I hold off leaping into relationships with men and start getting some self esteem?
Oh yes, this is one of the most key questions for me. I need to work on some self esteem baby. I have taken up my interior design course, I have met some really nice ladies, who seem pretty 'functional' and also getting confidence through doing something I enjoy and doing well at it. I would say I need a lot of work on my self esteem. I am miles better that I was 6 months ago, back then I took criticism very personally and lacked the confidence in my own decisions.
5. Is my husband a suitable marriage partner for me right now?
NOPE.
6. Am I a suitable marriage partner for this husband right now?
NOPE.
7. Are we compatable and both ready for a committed marriage right now or in the near future?
Compatible in terms of both sharing the same dreams and activites. This is the shame part, we are both very compatible and share a lot of fondness for the same things e.g country walks, growing veggies, house renovations, interior design, architecture, travel. We shared many of the same dreams, would love to adopt a child (OK I hear y'all not ready!!) would love to move to Oz, would love to buy and renovate a chalet in the Alps. Our problem was that we were p*ss poor at communication, selfish and IB, poor understand of skills to be ina good marriage.
8. Why do I want a man around so badly?
Cause I want to share my life with somebody and love someone and they love me. I know I can be happy without a man, but to be happily married to the right man is the ultimate for me.
9. What is it I need from a man?
Love, care, time, respect, showing me new things and maturity.
10. Why am I so confused, afraid, insecure, and uncertain?
My affair, my marriage crubmling, my dads illness has all knocked my confidence, it all seems to have gone so wrong. I am just learning to cope with that and learn how to be a better person. Learning boudaries was a big thing for me. Problem is I am surrounded by many with weak boundaries, but now have an inner confidence of knowing the right from wrong. I am in such a different place then when I cam here.

I have the notebook my mum bought me, so am going to do the 'progress' excercise you talked about. At the end of the day it can only do me some good.

Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Leave it alone and get to more working on yourself and learning. You can do it.


I know I can do it, its just knowing how! How come I ended up needing all this work, its pretty depressing, I feel like I have had a late start of the starting line!!

Thanks again,

Harmony.
Right now after boring you all senseless, I am off to enjoy my HOLS.............................

hurray

PS. Thanks PM, I am pretty focused these days. Turtle? That must be an American thang?
I think it is great that you are stating your boundaries.
Have a wonderful holiday...

and for Bubbles?

I have an answer to you about some of the 'introspection' you have about Harmony...

Imho, I had a xwh who began cheating at around our 4.5 year mark married.

It had NO bearing on me, or my time as a newly single woman and mom, and your words, esp the suppositions on what, how or when she sould begin dating (after divorce of course).

When you go through something as traumatic as an ema, it is life-changing. YOu second guess everything about yourself and over-analyze it all.

I should know. My personal counselor (who is/was pro MB) after the divorce told me I was "normal" after having gone thru such a personal trauma.

My former marriage to my xh wasn't bad, it was xh who changed, who became a ws, and morphed into a sad person, it wasn't the marriage, so don't beat up on Harmony at all. SHE didn't make the negative choices, and SHE is the one who is left to pick up the pieces of her life and decide what she wishes to do.

For myself, what worked was to work on me, just have a total vacation from the WS completely and revel in it. I suppose Harmony is hopefully having a WONDERFUL time on her vacation right now!

I didn't feel like dating until about 2 years post divorce, and I still had a far far way to go, in that I was a bit selfish, and rather heck on wheels for any poor guy I dated (and didn't date alot). It is a reaction from the rejection and the horrible treatment courtesy of the xws.

She will find her safe zones, she will plot a course for her personal recovery, and know there is a BOARD HERE AT MB for that which helped me immensely. Made some wonderful friends on that board.

But a stinging 2 x 4 doesn't really accomplish much. I've been there, done that, bought the t shirt and had one helluva fight with my xh and it went on for years until his own actions consumed him (the wayward ones) and he has paid with his job, his freedoms, and finally being divorced from his "soul mate...um make that mistress".

You can never ASSume anything like that ok? You don't know what she will do or how she will proceed ahead, but what is important is she is at THE RIGHT PLACE to learn how to love herself again, embrace her new beginning, and move forward. Expect the best and be a bit nicer imho. I remember the first time a guy said I was pretty post divorce. It was elating! I felt so ugly, so downtrodden, so sad after having been emotionally beaten up by my xwh for almost two years. But learning good boundaries was great! It helped me alot! And learned how to marriage-build for the future (when I met my now dh) and also to plan A myself for a while, learning to take great care and being gentle with my own emotions as I learned how to rebuild my life over again.

I wish Harmony the best vacation ever! Go and plan A yourself girl! That's what I did for a good year or two. Travel. Have a blast! love your children and yourself. But most of all, in plan A-ing yourself, realize you have special needs. You have been thru the mill, through heck, and that you need to give yourself plenty of time for healing, reflection, and a bit of well-earned self love, all the while focusing even more love on your kids.

Remember, MB is great. I learned these processes and put them in place for myself for years...until I felt emotionally ready (and even got my counselor to say an "ok" on it) before dating again. All Iknow is a bit over 3 years ago, when my heart had healed and when I'd least have expected it, I met my DH. And I am grateful for all I've learned here and the friendships I've made.

It is a hard road to travel down. Those here know it truly is. But you do so with hope in your heart always, all the while trying to keep an open mind.
Well this..
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
1. Am I really ready for marriage now?
Tough one. Its much harder work than I realised, its funny friends of mine are getting married and everyone is cooing over the enagagement/wedding, I get much more excited about couples who have been married a long time been with each other through thick and thin. So I amn going to be brave and say YES smile
..
and this..
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
5. Is my husband a suitable marriage partner for me right now?
NOPE.
6. Am I a suitable marriage partner for this husband right now?
NOPE...

Sounds like you want to be married right now, and are leaning away from recovery as a positive option. No problem of course, it has allways been your decision. Just pointing out the obvious.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
7. Are we compatable and both ready for a committed marriage right now or in the near future?
Compatible in terms of both sharing the same dreams and activites. This is the shame part, we are both very compatible and share a lot of fondness for the same things e.g country walks, growing veggies, house renovations, interior design, architecture, travel. We shared many of the same dreams, would love to adopt a child (OK I hear y'all not ready!!) would love to move to Oz, would love to buy and renovate a chalet in the Alps. Our problem was that we were p*ss poor at communication, selfish and IB, poor understand of skills to be ina good marriage...

Sounds like if you could both put the past behind, and work on a solution, he would be the perfect guy. Betcha thought that when you met him huh? Well you can put it behind you and move on, or use this opportunity to recover and keep going forward. Again its up to you and him.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
3. Can I learn to observe men and recognize red flags rather than jumping into relationships?
Well yes, I am more adapt at noticing the 'red flags' there is a lotta guys with a lotta red flags. Red flag examples..a) burst of anger b) talks badly of exes c) mommas boys d) Liars....need I go on....I think the actual danger for me here would benot trusting men at all.
4. Can I hold off leaping into relationships with men and start getting some self esteem?
Oh yes, this is one of the most key questions for me. I need to work on some self esteem baby. I have taken up my interior design course, I have met some really nice ladies, who seem pretty 'functional' and also getting confidence through doing something I enjoy and doing well at it. I would say I need a lot of work on my self esteem. I am miles better that I was 6 months ago, back then I took criticism very personally and lacked the confidence in my own decisions...

Although this is all good stuff Harm, it is working away from recovery of this reletionship and inviting comparison to your H. I know it may be too early for you to deal with this, but the tendency to compare our spouses with others imagining they don't have faults too runs deep in us responsible humans. Its ussually one of the main reasons we stray, the grass looks greener.

I am glad you are getting your confidance back, and that is so very important in making decisions, and any freind in a relationship would encourage you and support you in self-improvement efforts, or broadening your horizons. It will take self-confidance and inner security in your mate to let you spread your wings and grow without getting jealous. That of course would also be a challange in recovery, since you both have experienced pain and fear from each other, and trust will have to be built.

Something about confidance, can you take on the challange of recovery? I know it has to be two people working on it, and you are doing your part right? But think what you could build from the ashes, that would build confidance yes?

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Get ready for the part of the ride where you realize after he wants to work on the marriage that maybe you don't want to anymore. That is normal too. It will pass also.

I am feeling this already the more I have grown the more worried I have become that he won't....I know that might be a DJ but it is more of a fear...

Yes it is a fear, but a real one nonetheless. Remember you are doing all you can to help him see its up to him to show you he is willing to work on the marriage, and court you again, dispelling your fears by attending to you and comforting you.

You still don't have an IM I guess, and that was my only hope that he would get the books from DrH so you would both have a plan for recovery since Scotty put the KaBosh on sending them to him while in plan B. Not doubting her wisdom, but I really feel he has no life-line to recovery. I think he wants it, but has no guidance, even when he hits rock bottom.

Maybe if you get seriuos about Plan B and the recovery process you will get an IM. Then again maybe you are to afraid of it and would rather put it all behind you and move on. Of course that is your choice also Harm.

If that is how it turns out to be, do you think he would be able or willing to come to this site and get some guidance for himself? Maybe he would consider us enemys I don't know, but I can assure you his pain and struggle is just as important as yours to most of us.

I am not taking sides with anyone here, that would be unfair to the sanctity of the marriage union and the depth of the bond it should be where no man comes between it. Like anyone else, WH has the right to heal and grow from this and learn how to recover also. Maybe like you, he can be supported. Maybe he too can have a marriage that he can treasure and learn how to have like many others here have.

Have a great Holiday Harm. hurray

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I know I can do it, its just knowing how! How come I ended up needing all this work, its pretty depressing, I feel like I have had a late start of the starting line!!..

Thats easy, so you can help others avoid the pitfalls and encourge them in the right decisions silly, just like your WH has the chance to do the same if he chooses.
What is throwing this post (and poster) off, IMHO, is the non MB advice being given. At the top of this page, it clearly states,

Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.

Dr. H has a plan. The plan works. True- everyone has a learning curve- no one gets plan A, plan B LB's, POJA's right the first time.

I believe this system is the best way to go.

It is NOT MB (and very pointless) to pontificate on the motives of a WS. Pages here have been dedicated to second guessing Harm's WS actions. This has encouraged her to ingore MB advice and do the same.

The bottom line. He is still an active (and very abusive) WS.

Fact: He is still activley in an A.
He has proven his desire to cake eat till the cows come home. He has shown NO true remorse/repentance for his actions

He refuses Harm's requets, beats on her door whenever, and shows little regaurd for her concerns/ideas.

He has not complied (tho he may have had no plan B letter - so that may not all be his fault)to ANY request she has for real recovery.

So why, as a MB community, are we bloviating about WS intentions, meanings and half- hearted actions?
Plan A;
Fog speak: "blah, blah. blah-blah blah."
Reply; "That's interesting. "Do you want a cookie? How is the weather?"
Plan B;
Fogspeak; "Blah, blah. blah-blah-blah."
Reply; nothing. nada. zero.

Because--
It is all FOG. He has not shown the change of heart required to start recovery.


Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/10/11 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by barbiecat
So why, as a MB community, are we bloviating about WS intentions, meanings and half- hearted actions?
Plan A;
Fog speak: "blah, blah. blah-blah blah."
Reply; "That's interesting. "Do you want a cookie? How is the weather?"
Plan B;
Fogspeak; "Blah, blah. blah-blah-blah."
Reply; nothing. nada. zero.

Because--
It is all FOG. He has not shown the change of heart required to start recovery.

This really hits the nail on the head BC. It really is ALL fog until THEY are ready to change and start recovery. Plan A is more about being compliant with WS fog-babble. Plan B is more about not putting up the bull**** anymore.
Originally Posted by barbiecat
..It is NOT MB (and very pointless) to pontificate on the motives of a WS. Pages here have been dedicated to second guessing Harm's WS actions. This has encouraged her to ingore MB advice and do the same.

Gotta agree, She is in that place of justifying her own actions, and still afraid he will return to His. Like Bubs said, it seems like a schoolgirl thing, rather than a marriage.

They both have a perfect opportunity to move on, and blame each other for how thier marraige failed, or put things back together. Maybe the lack of respect for each other is to great to overcome.

I have also seen the tendency of this type of poster to use this site and do a half-azzed plan B with only taking in what opinions and guidance that allows them to leave the marriage, ahem, "After doing all I could, boo-hoo". Its all so comfortable that way isn't it?

After much time in what I believe was a good cause in trying to help her understand things it seems my words really have been lost on her. Instead of her hearing what I say or understanding I do understand, so she would trust in Dr. H and plan A and B, she just picks what she wants and does what she feels.

Now she has gone into plan B without an IM just inviting more contact and insisting she do it her way. Its like watching a slow moving train wreck. she hasn't even responded to my questions of if she has an IM.

Sorry Harm I gotta bail on you, There are many good people here able to help you recover your marriage if you wish to, and also help you in your personal recovery. I am confidant you will be fine either way, but this site IS decicated to helping those interested in the marraige builders program.

Though understanding the past can help us build a better future, it can get in the way of making the choices needed to have one. I am still rooting for you and you WH, and hope he will find help also in repairing his life, and maybe his marriage.

I will be praying for you and looking in on your thread from time to time to see how your doing.

God Bless
I have an IM constant that was in the PLan B letter I gave my H?

As far saying I don't invest in the MB program I have spent about 700 pound on counselling with Steve Harley and 6 months posting on this site doing EVERY advice given to me. I have actually been doing the opposite advice to what Steve Harley has been giving me and been listening to you guys here.

I tell you what everyone else see how they do sticking to a Plan B when they have just buried there father and have not initiated contact with the H once since they went into Plan B. I have not called, text, emailed, driven by nothing. I let him into my life as support when my father passed away just 5 weeks ago, and let him into the house last Friday to pick up something he needed.

I am tired of being here and getting blasted. I think I have done pretty well under the circumstances.

Thank you for your support and time.
Posted By: Meggin Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/10/11 07:14 PM
{{{{Harmony}}}}

Harmony, I think you've done well, but I'm MB's worst Plan B'er ever, according to everyone. Keep your chin up and do keep on doing Plan B.
Originally Posted by Meggin
{{{{Harmony}}}}

Harmony, I think you've done well, but I'm MB's worst Plan B'er ever, according to everyone. Keep your chin up and do keep on doing Plan B.


Thanks Meggin

Feel like bailing on this site and feel like bailing on my marriage, I am tired and this is just so tough.

I think I won the award for worst Plan B! So maybe your second to me. The annoying thing is I haven't intiated contact since he left 2.5 months ago, short of moving I don;t know what to do.

He turned up last night also, I didn't let him in this time, just ignored him.





Posted By: Xau Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/10/11 07:25 PM
Patience, patience and more patience all you can do now is work through the processes. Keep a firm Plan B and stay on course.
Don't bail, Harmony. I've been reading your threads for a few months now, and it's been extremely helpful for me. You've been working incredibly hard here, and there are many of us who are cheering you on, albeit quietly in the background smile Stay strong and don't give up now!!!!

Best wishes~
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/10/11 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I have actually been doing the opposite advice to what Steve Harley has been giving me and been listening to you guys here.

What advice did SH give you?
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by barbiecat
..It is NOT MB (and very pointless) to pontificate on the motives of a WS. Pages here have been dedicated to second guessing Harm's WS actions. This has encouraged her to ingore MB advice and do the same.

Gotta agree, She is in that place of justifying her own actions, and still afraid he will return to His. Like Bubs said, it seems like a schoolgirl thing, rather than a marriage.

They both have a perfect opportunity to move on, and blame each other for how thier marraige failed, or put things back together. Maybe the lack of respect for each other is to great to overcome.

I have also seen the tendency of this type of poster to use this site and do a half-azzed plan B with only taking in what opinions and guidance that allows them to leave the marriage, ahem, "After doing all I could, boo-hoo". Its all so comfortable that way isn't it?

After much time in what I believe was a good cause in trying to help her understand things it seems my words really have been lost on her. Instead of her hearing what I say or understanding I do understand, so she would trust in Dr. H and plan A and B, she just picks what she wants and does what she feels.

Now she has gone into plan B without an IM just inviting more contact and insisting she do it her way. Its like watching a slow moving train wreck. she hasn't even responded to my questions of if she has an IM.

Sorry Harm I gotta bail on you, There are many good people here able to help you recover your marriage if you wish to, and also help you in your personal recovery. I am confidant you will be fine either way, but this site IS decicated to helping those interested in the marraige builders program.

Though understanding the past can help us build a better future, it can get in the way of making the choices needed to have one. I am still rooting for you and you WH, and hope he will find help also in repairing his life, and maybe his marriage.

I will be praying for you and looking in on your thread from time to time to see how your doing.

God Bless


hurray
Thought you had given up on my thread SR, you can't keep away!!

Like PM said your way off the mark. 3rd time lucky and you might stop posting. Doubt it!

Delta - SH said that the Plan B had to be 'massaged' for my situation. That I had to allow a certain amount of communication, due to my affair setting him off. That I should allow him in the house and do more of a 'mocha' Plan B. Also, that Plan B can be broken under extreme circumstances such as my father passing away.


Time out from this site. I came here for support not to be made to feel worse. I delt really good today, H had Plan B letter, IM in place, going away on holiday for a week and feeling in a good place.

Then I come here and because I goofed in Plan b (which I am sure happens - well I have read Mimi success thread and she goofedpeyote a few times ) posters jump on the band wagon and leave.

If you say your going to leave and keep coming back, please don't, it just makes me feel your posting is insincere and your hope for my best intentions
are not there.

It seems that there are very few posters stay here for the long term, I hope I will stay as I have gotten a lot from this site just don't want to get distracted.

Constant I am bewildered one minue you tell me not to get discouraged then the next minute your off. That's ok, I am still going on.
Harmony,
There were lots of days that I felt like quitting as well, my sit is different than yours but difficult as well, my husband still worked with the OW for the first 8 months or so.......she eventually left..........but I guess we sort of recovered without the No Contact in place 100% he didn't speak to her, but he did see her from time to time, she was moved to a different department right after I found out.........so we didn't really abide by all the MB rules and probably broke the most important one........I agreed to give her time to find new employment. It went against the MB program.
So as much as I believe in the total NO CONTACT and I did request it and did tell him that until she was gone we couldn't really commit to each other.........
But he stayed living with me the whole time and it was tougher for me with him going to work every day. It's amazes me still how strong I can be.......
I just tried to stay strong and listen to what my gut told me and I tried to believe that waiting a little longer to start on our recovery was worth it for me.......
It is never easy and of course we had slip up with the LB's because of it......
But we are better for it, I'm better for it.
It really takes a long time to figure it all out, we second guess everything and try to read our husband's minds......we assume, we imagine all kinds of scenerios that probably aren't even true..........
and we try to make sense of something that we can't ............
I thought you were on holiday?
Thanks Jessi, I know were you are coming from, I am disappointed in goofing in Plan B, I do want to stay dark and even got to the point where I don't want H to contact me.

I am tired and need a break from it all. Tired of the 2x4s and need a vacation!!

I really have thought about moving or staying with a friend so H won't be able to find me.

Still here still posting and feeling very disillusioned.

Off tomorrorow thanks for your support everyone.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/10/11 10:56 PM
Sorry Harmony, I have been off MB for a few days. I haven't read all of the posts you received in that time.

I will say that as a poster, it is sometimes frustrating to spend your free time trying to help someone only to have that person do everything OPPOSITE than what you advised and then complain when things aren't going their way.

MB isn;t easy. I have slipped myself(see today's update). I have however, learned what it has meant to be in a truly dark Plan B and I have understood what it does for me. I honestly don;t believe that you have had the benefits of a true dark Plan B yet. I also believe that you are going through more harm than is necessary.

My advice to you is figure what it is that you want to do. Figure out if you want to follow MB or not. If you do, accept the 2x4s when they are warranted and stick with it. Learn and grow. This is what is meant about taking care of your own side of the fence.
Posted By: Meggin Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/10/11 11:02 PM
She's Harmony. I'm Meggin. smile
I owe you an explanation Harm, let me do some research and I'll post. But get goin on your holiday and have a good time OK?

But as for now, sorry you do not understand why I wanted to quit posting, its not cuz you are a lost cause. Will explain laterz
@Harmony -

To me this is very good progress:
Quote
I am tired and need a break from it all. Tired of the 2x4s and need a vacation!!
You are taking control of yourself. You are deciding whats best for you and your Recovery.

You are choosing! Good for you!

Quote
I really have thought about moving or staying with a friend so H won't be able to find me.
Your choosing to plan!

Quote
Still here still posting and feeling very disillusioned.
Open and honest with your feelings.

Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/11/11 02:09 AM
Originally Posted by Meggin
She's Harmony. I'm Meggin. smile

Sorry Guys. Couldn't see through the tears and my brain was all mixed up today. See what happens when those pesky Wayturds get in there. They just jumble everything around. frown
Guys, I can understand the frustration but sometimes it takes a long while before a BS gets it. Harmony, I just don't want to see you reach the RED in your LB-- which is what will happen if you keep having these impromptu interactions with your WH.

Why not give yourself a goal? A complete and total dark Plan B for an entire month, without fail. Then see how much better you feel after a month. I hate to use the word "feel" because we can't go by our feelings for something this important. Your situation requires actions NOT based on feelings. KWIM? These plans are the result of years of research by Dr. H. What is it they say in AA? It works if you work it?
This is from 12-29-10 From the first draft of second Plan B letter.

Quote
However, until we are both committed I have asked for no contact as it is too painful. I hope you understand. If you need anything from the house or me, please contact sis.

Was this the IM you were talking about? If I have missed it somewhere where you answered my latest posts about having and IM in place, so you could stay Dark, I appoligize. At this point in this post I am searching still for that response.

This from 12-30-10

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Constant old bean, have you checked out my Plan B letter yet? I think I need to add some reconcile T&Cs this is what I had in mind;

* Be nice to your wife all times not just when you have done something wrong
* Not allowed to sleep with OW
* 5 years of counselling
* Cut apron strings from mommy
* Anger mgmt classes
* At least 1 compliment a year

Sorry I just can't help it, I am only venting grin

Then this which I took as humor, although it did have real issues for you, and of course they needed to be worded better. Thank you for starting on the list that needed to be in Plan B letter, for a road map for WH, and a guide for both of you.


Then this from me. What I felt was a pretty clear and realistic view on how much he needed the letter, and you did also, on 12-31-00. It was not the only time I pushed for the letter, but encompases probably the most rounded reasons I think for having it, and the list..
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Right now you are dark, seeing the problems and not appling the solution. Justifing your reasons to leave, and building up the fears because you saw the mistakes. There will be no hope of reconciliation if he doesn't have a clear and uncomplicated list of requiremernts, and THAT, you know, was part of your communication problem. This is on you Harm, and part of the work of marriage.

Having hope will be part of believing there is a way to make this a dream marrige, one you both want and can work together on. But seeing the problems and talking about them will not help you if you don't have a solution. Thats the wisdom of DRH, and what MB and his counsel is about. You know this right? Have you read about his experience as a marrige counsellor?

Concentrate on a solution, and put it clearly on paper so WH has something to go on, then be dark and search yourself. No fair trying to understand it all and keep him in the dark. He has to be part of the solution also. Anything else is controlling as you ask him to just do what you say and trust you again.

Get that letter up and let us see it, help you tweak it, so he has something to go on. Unless you just want us to help you justify leaving him. Believe me unless there is violence or he stops his slow return to reality, I won't agree you should leave until you have given him a clear picture of what you want and expect. Then he has it on paper while you stay dark...

This is also what I believe

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
.. Your WH is lost, he needs help, is it such a surprise to you that we all need that at some time? Give him help and hope with at least a letter, not contact, that is prolonging his pain too. I don't see him as someone who is hopeless.

This was all addressing the need for a plan, for both of you. You want to be Dark for awhile, we all agree that might be nessesary for now. The danger with a long plan B is either party becoming used to being apart, and instead of addressing the issues that have hurt the marriage they give up. Without a plan he will not know what to do or what to hope for. Its just not fair Harm, I didn't understand why you couldn't see it.

Then this from JL on 1-02-11

Originally Posted by Just Learning
Harmony,

I like CP's recommendation of specificity. Don't you just love that word? smile

I would make a few suggestions. Consider that your H does know what MB is nor the jargon, so make sure you don't use it specifically or he will be confused.

One thing struck me and the request that he have a plan. My thought would be just slightly different. He MUST be willing to sit down with you and lay out a plan that protects both you and him and addresses what each of you need in this marriage. This should be joint effort. What would help this planning effort is for him to consider what would be an "ideal" marriage for him and what he would need from his W. This should be coupled with what he is willing to do for his W.

Please understand that POJA and even "radical honesty" are negotiating tools that make for the best possible win-win plan and that is what you want.

Harmony, I think your draft letter is an excellent start. I think CP's recommendations are excellent. Communications have always been a problem with you two, so be specific as to what you want for Plan B to be over. Give him a path home that even HE can follow. wink

God Bless,

JL

This was again an attempt to make the plan clear, but not to scary and understandable to him.
I wanted you to go dark, in a hurry, and stay there till he got a clue. I know you still have love for him, and he must make some moves toward recovery, but untill you guys work on communication issues it will be hard, as it would anyone, to move forward. It will be extremely hard for him if he doesn't have a road map, and I was, and still am, very concerned about him also.

To your credit you had included a list in your next draft, and also I guess the contacting of your Sis was your IM and it was listed there also. But hear is my list of what ticked me off so much, I hope you get it.

1. When I over the last week or so kept asking you to get an IM, you didn't respond and tell me "I have my Sis". At least to my knowledge. I will keep searching the thread and maybe I am wrong.
2. An IM needs to be trained, again no info whether that has happened, and its very important in order to stay dark and only get nessesary information. In your case barring some disaster it should be only when he is ready to agree to the road map from Plan B letter. IMs need to be trained to not communicate dramatic issues that are geared for inappropiate contact. Something that has happened over and over with you and WH.
3. Watching you float between missing him and being afraid of him when a clear plan B and a capable IM was not seen by (myself, anyway), or in print here was like watching a slow train wreck. You seemed to be balking at initiating a good plan, and MB works only when you do it.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..For reconciliation to happen I would need the following to happen before making a commitment:

> No contact with the other women for the rest of your life.
> A full confession.....an ability to be totally open and honest with me about anything I ask about whenever I ask.
> A sincere, remorseful apology...for the pain and suffering you have caused me
> Complete transparency to each other in all areas of our life (to all phones, emails, credit card bills and receipts, passwords, facebook etc)
> Sit down together and agree a recovery plan for us both which will protect us both and address what we both need from a marriage and what we are willing to give. Examples include,
Spending time together
Stop doing things that cause each other unhappiness e.g. solo holidays, angry outbursts, criticising, lies�
Doing things for each other which makes us happy e.g buying cakes!, arranging days out, supportive of business, consideration of others feelings, involving family�
Complete honesty about everything including thoughts both positive and negative about each other�s behaviour, whereabouts, hopes for the future�
Move home to a new area
..

Here is the list update , and its a good one BTW. At this point I was worried WH still didn't have an objective source he could readily turn to, such as the books by Dr H, if one of those lonely nights when he was by himself and banned from contact from you, he read the letter, and he needed definition.

I remember his counseling sessions with SH, and SHs advice, along with his impression of where he thought WH was at. I remember and can imagine WH feels overwhelmed and afraid. I feel that if he can objectivly read the books at his own pace, when he hits rock bottom, (which he will), and realizes HE must do something for himself, well those books will help him and you, whether you reconcile or not.

I pray you do, but it takes two, and "Without a vision the people perish", (Bible but isn't it true?. Its a great truth for everyone).

Back to the point, I felt he was being hung out to dry without any way to find his way back. I know he loves you, and you are both in a hard place between giving up, and what do you do? He has a lot of issues to work out, and so do you, but without him having the means to understand his part, he would not know what to do even if he wanted to.


Thats when I suggested the books for him, because I didn't think he knew or trusted them yet, but soon would when you were dark.

Ok, reference to IM, untrained I suspect, but still I had missed it in last letter, which BTW I thoght was very good.

But I had missed the edit by Mel that took a lot of the long and confusing explanations out until now. I too felt they were unesessary, but I am not an expert on plan B letters, and needed a vet to bring down to simple, which she did.

Mel knows best, and now my suggested list was gone. She is right those things can be worked on when he comes home.

On 1-7-11
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..Until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will be having no communication with you, and I will avoid seeing you. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you. If you need anything urgent please speak to Dawn...


So from my perspective, and to my knowledge which was faulty, I understand that now. I believed...

1. You did not have an IM, much less trained, so you could stay Dark.
2. WH had no path back home, and was left with the implication that you would be going on hoiday, where as far as he knows will be hanging out with other men, and he didn't realize how hard you were working on reconciliation.

It was my fault on these assumptions, and all I can do is appoligize. It would have helped if you had answered me faster as to an IM when I asked, but that is no excuse for my reaction.

Mels clear and focused letter re-write was the right thing to do. My attempt to micro-manage your letter and give him a list of requirements although well intended, will come when he is ready to work on things. He will have to want to and do his part first, and he has SH to turn to, when he is ready. Plan B should protect you till hes ready, and leave him with himself to reflect on himself. When he gets tired of that, and hits his bottom, then he will look for help. Thats how it is for all of us. To quote Mel and as she quoted from AA. "Your best thinking got you here". Time to accept some help.

What was missing from my ideology and theory, was the simple fact that Mel knew in her wisdom. He has to want it and its up to him to decide that he does. With that I doubt he would stop at anything or listen to anybody as to how to recover.


It seemed apparent that WH had some deep issues from his past that added misery to your marriage. Those will have to be recognized by him when he is ready also. My attempt at a road map was to simplify his way back to the marriage, where he could recognize the need to address them. This is MB, not indirect to your spouse therapy. You already know he has issues, in his time alone now he has a choice to see them and deal with them. I hope he does as I am sure all of us do.

My tendency to examine all the details cuts both ways, sometimes I can't see the forest through the trees. It doesn't matter if I know this marriage can be recovered or what I think is important for you or him. This thread is for you two guys. What matters is what you see and think.

I will back off for a few days to get some much needed perspective, I have made this thread much to important to me and too personal. I guess I just love seeing people recover from crap that happens to them, but forget its up to them, and all I am is an observer of what they do, and can rejoice in that.

Please forgive my anxiety and ignorance, you are in good hands here from many wise people. Have a great Holiday

The intention of my post was not to encourage people to "bail", I was pointing out MB philosophy and the inconsistancies that I saw as an outsider to this thread.

It was not about one poster doing this or that, it was that solid, MB advice was being given, but this post seemed to sway into interactions and conversations that were not supportive of the aforementioned advice.

Harm, you have been here 6 months, according to my calc. That is not a very long time, but it is long enough for you to understand MB principles.

Yes, you are allowed and encouraged to come here to vent and seek advice.
In my expereince most MBrs will not agree with and encourage actions that unintentionally or intentionally harm the poster.

Even if we very much like and feel sympathy for that person.
Originally Posted by barbiecat
The intention of my post was not to encourage people to "bail", I was pointing out MB philosophy and the inconsistancies that I saw as an outsider to this thread.

It was not about one poster doing this or that, it was that solid, MB advice was being given, but this post seemed to sway into interactions and conversations that were not supportive of the aforementioned advice.

Harm, you have been here 6 months, according to my calc. That is not a very long time, but it is long enough for you to understand MB principles.

Yes, you are allowed and encouraged to come here to vent and seek advice.
In my expereince most MBrs will not agree with and encourage actions that unintentionally or intentionally harm the poster.

Even if we very much like and feel sympathy for that person.

Yup BC, Myself I understand that, Thanks for pointing all that out. As far as harming the poster, I beg to differ whether sharing view points and hand holding while exploring thoughts that run through our minds is more of indentifing with there plight, or encouraging to fellowship in misery. There is a fine line I know.

But more importantly, I have to admit that this site is dedicated to the recovery of marriage and MB principles, which I beleive in wholeheartly. So I encouraged Harmony to get into a dark plan B, the MB way, so then, then, she could explore all those feelings and thoughts, without second guessing the plan, and giving up before she ever started. Then we could play junior psychologist, and relate what we knew, as she made a decision.

But this is MB, not Shrink-for-men or a site dedicated to healing all the deeper issues that might plauge these two. MB will work if they want to be married bad enough. There is a limit to how much anyone can do to instill that desire in anybody, and instead of being or trying to be a professional counsellor, It is wisdom that we let them seek that counsel from Dr. H. The site is designed to encourage and reflect MB principles, as far as the deeper issues, "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear" It was allways a battle with me whether to stay and answer or address Harms issues, or not, feeling that the deeper issues would be addressed by a qualified therapist in the process of recovery when they both were on board with that.

You have not been the only one who has stated there is to much anaylizing and talk of her feelings here, and not enough action towards recovery. I saw it too, the difference is I thought she would eventually come to the end of her own thoughts if she had someone to bounce them off of, and others did not have time to address those things, and wanted to see results that would have been great for her marriage recovery and personal R also. I agree that certain things needed to be done and encouraged them, but I mixed it with some sharing of perspective at the same time, beliving it was what I should do, for someone so mixed up at this time.


I reacted because of my own emotional reasons, impatience, and bruised Ego regarding this situation. Its not the first time I have felt this way, but its my own fault. What you said BC had a lot of truth in it, and I was allready at a breaking point. It was not you and of course you were not encouraging "bailing". I did what I did and take responsibility for it. If I did something again MB policies, I am sorry for that. Again I defer to the more experienced and objective wisdom of the vets. This is a joint effort in helping people here and my specific opinion is not that important that I should get offended.

Im not bailing

I gotta go deal with grandaughter. ttyl
Hey Harm,

Hope you are having a great Holiday.


I felt I needed to add something in waiting for you to come back to your thread.

I am guilty of waiting too long for you to see you would have to apply the guidance offered by others and doing what was suggested in a complete dedication to Plan B.

I knew others would come here and critisize your lack of commitment to the plan, while I hoped you would work out within yourself a decision to really trust it or not. I was worried that you would lose the opportunity to have other posters help you also.

I took it too personal, thinking I had some understanding of what both of you young people are going through, and seeing that you wanted that happy marrige, it was only a matter of time before you chose reconcilation through the ridged application of MB principles and actions. I still know that its possible.

I was afraid of your doing the 1/2 assed up and down recovery game. I felt very personnaly involved in helping you, and protecting you also. NOT the healthiest place to come from, but I still reacted badly and selfishly when other came on the thread, and challanged you in your convictions.

Its not supposed to be my place to protect you, its your Husbands. I am only here encougarging that recovery, and can only give credit to the truth expressed by others who give objective advice and guidance, which I hope I am part of.

Sorry for the drama, I know thats the last thing you need. Please keep posting and seeking understanding about marriage and recovery. You have been through a lot. Don't let my negativity or anyone elses stop you from seeking peace and happiness.

Also now that you ARE in a solid plan B, this is NOW the time where you can explore the fears that plaugue you, as I pray WH does also.

I hope I can still be of some assistance in that, as others here will be also.

Hoping again you are feeling better and moving forward.

God Bless.
duplicated below
Harmony, thinking of you and hoping you're okay. I have a new name and new thread, but you will remember me as someone who runs 5 miles a day (because you can't prove that I haven't!) smile
Hey Harm, Is the holiday over yet?
Hi MB Friends!

Hope your all doing ok.

I just got back from my holiday (vacation !) and had a wonderful time, loads of sunshine, loads of excercise, good food and good wine, it was fab. I spent a week in the French Alps zooming around the mountains and I really feel I have had a massive wellbeing boost.

I can highly recommend to anyone in Plan B a change of scenery really does wonders to put perspective on things. Think about that Mitzie and H&G!

I have got rid of a lot of the anxiety and have also proved to myself that I can have fun and be happy just on my own smile

Had a real good think about things and am giving myself a HUGE pat on the back for dealing with Plan B aswell as I did whilst dealing with the illness and death of my father. It was double trouble. I feel a lot stronger now to 'bat off' H and his attempts to break it, whereas befoere I was in full on grieving/shock for my Dad. I am still dealing with my fathers death, and weirdly as time goes on it becomes more 'real'. Its hard you know. I miss him bad, weird things that you don't even think of.

I am not going to post much from now on as really there is not much to say in Plan B if you doing it right. I get the benefits of it now, to me your lowering 'the bar' by seeing WH unless you see remorse and commitment to the Plan B terms is disrespecting yourself. Still in my own 'conflict' as far as WH is concerned, I go from missing him to being really hurt by some of his actions.

Hi H&G - Yes I recognise you straight away, Run Forest run! I felt like chite before I went away and really recommend you some kind of FUN break if you can to boost your spirits, I will be popping into your thread later, I know you have a lot on right now. Like the name BTW.

Hi Constant - Thanks for coming back to me with your explanation, I totally get you, but for once trust your instincts you know? You have good ones too I just think you may get swayed sometimes, you are right on page with most of what you say. If people call it psycho babble then so be it, you have given me some well needed perspective when things were tough. Thank you.

Hi Scotland - It probably seems like ages ago (i know how much postive impact even just 1 week in Plan B) but I really feel for what you went through early new year. Its almost like self torture. Just even a sniff of what the alien force are upto can send you batty. I liked your advice of people getting frustrated at people helping posters but not taking it on board. I do think peeps have to realise that sometimes 'MB Plans' have to take into account exceptional circumstances when they can be broken and I think I had one of them. Sh said there are others reasons such as close death or baby being born. Anyway, I am back dark now, and ready for any late night, barge through the door encouters of the alien kind. No getting pass me this time wayturd.

grin
Harmony,
Welcome back you sound rested and very together, it sounds like you have it straight with what you will accept for yourself, you have made it to the finish line girlie.......
Start planning the next get away, should be a regular thing just to reboot .......
I'm thinking of getting away a bit myself just to unwind from the every day life that seems to stop me from feeling free........
Anyway glad you are back and feeling good...........I can just picture you gliding down the slopes and sipping wine by the fireplace at night........sounds so wonderful.
Okay you will have to excuse me now............off to pour some wine for myself and flip through a travel magazine.........
jessi
It does sound like you are doing well Harm, glad to you are back.
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
It does sound like you are doing well Harm, glad to you are back.


Thanks Constant, I can't tell you how much better I feel I really do. I have given up smoking, the anxiety and sickness has disappeared, I feel like I am going to be fine whatevers happens smile
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I have given up smoking, the anxiety and sickness has disappeared, I feel like I am going to be fine whatevers happens smile

Gave up smoking, thats huge. Your on your way for sure. Doesn't there seem a peace way more real when you quit smoking? As opposed to the one you seek when you light up in anxiety?

Very happy for you Harm
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/20/11 04:11 AM
Hey Harmony. Glad you had a great time and I AM SO JEALOUS. :P

Let's call this new and improved Plan B, Plan B 2.0. A new year, a new you and a new Plan B. You are doing great and remember that those pesky thoughts can pop in at any time. Let the grieving happen, for both your dad and your M. It will take time for you to deal with this all. Let it happen. Also, make positive and long lasting changes in YOUR life. In a year, you too will be amazed at the progress you have made.

BTW, I am toughest on myself. grin After all, I KNOW what I was/wasn't thinking.
Hi Guys

2 weeks Dark Plan B today, and feeling VERY strong. I don't knows happened to me but I am so serious about Plan B.

2 weeks seems to be the common point that H tries to break Plan B, so have made plans all weekend so I am hardly at the house, then I am back at work on Monday so out all day anyway. Fridays generally seem to be his weak point.

am going to have to change the back door lock AGAIN, as it looks like H got in the house whilst I was away. His company is doors/windows/extensions so it is easy for him to break in, guess he was able to do that whilst I was away.

In fact I am more concerned that if my WH dares turn up at the house , I will be tempted to hurl rotten tomatoes at him. Just kidding.
grin


Originally Posted by Harmony2010
...am going to have to change the back door lock AGAIN, as it looks like H got in the house whilst I was away. His company is doors/windows/extensions so it is easy for him to break in, guess he was able to do that whilst I was away...


My suggestion is you get a locksmith who can go thru and secure your home, windows, etc. Being in construction before I know there are ways to get in if there are not good locks. Its important he doesn't get away with bargding into the house, now that you have asked him not to come over, and he use the IMs.

Have a great time Harm. Glad your doin better.
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
...am going to have to change the back door lock AGAIN, as it looks like H got in the house whilst I was away. His company is doors/windows/extensions so it is easy for him to break in, guess he was able to do that whilst I was away...


My suggestion is you get a locksmith who can go thru and secure your home, windows, etc. Being in construction before I know there are ways to get in if there are not good locks. Its important he doesn't get away with bargding into the house, now that you have asked him not to come over, and he use the IMs.

Have a great time Harm. Glad your doin better.


Thanks Constant will give them a call and get that arranged. Pesky builders!
Yay, Harmony! I'm glad you're doing so well! smile
Scott Peck, the author of "The Road less traveled", was a preist, phycologist<sp> and therapist. He said something that rang so true in my heart in that book, that it changed my life. It was a "word in season" to me, meaning I had to be ready to hear it.

Many people hear things but do not really hear them until a certain time in thier life. Its why bible scholars say they are allways learning and gaining from the scriptures, and they never can read enough. Allways learning and growing. We are all that way, and the spirit is clear regaurdless of the source. But thats a whole deep discussion on its own, suffice it to say God lives through his people, even the ones that don't belive in him.


He said that what was the most important life changing entity in a childs life, which would prevent them from suffering and allow them to adapt to even the worst situations and come out healthy, was the presence of a parent that would stick by them through anything and suffer with them if need be.

We can share each others burdens, and even the blessed can "pay it forward" by counsel. Its a priveledge to give and to recieve.

I personnaly beleive that we are to help others when nessesary, as we help ourselves, and hold each other up when we can. I also beleive that as our children need emotional support, so do us "adults", and that we are children of God, and he did not mean for us to suffer while are here, and we can still be his children, emotionally as well as we grow experiencally and mature as adults.

Its been my great pleasure to help you Harm, and inspiring to myself at the same time. I believe everybody here feels the same. You are doing good, may your journey bring you all the blessings your heart desires, as you keep searching, learning, and loving. Keep learning that you allready have everything within yourself for happiness, and as it is revealed, you will be able to take full charge of yourself, and protect yourself also.

Now that you are in a Dark Plan B, emotions and thoughts that you have will become more apparant that come from you. My advice is to not hide from ones that make you want to run away and hide, but instead explore them, reason away any that don't make sense. In short fight for your peace of mind. We all have to do this, maybe some more than others, but its the fear that is painful more than anything, fear of being alone the worst of them all.

A balanced therapist is best for this, but we will be here even then, if you need us.

As far as marriage recovery advice, you know its here and clear.

God bless Harm, keep posting and update when ya can
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Pesky builders!
rotflmao
Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/22/11 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
But thats a whole deep discussion on its own, suffice it to say God lives through his people, even the ones that don't belive in him.

God does not discriminate. Thank goodness. I'm sure we've all had times when we've questioned his existance.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
He said that what was the most important life changing entity in a childs life, which would prevent them from suffering and allow them to adapt to even the worst situations and come out healthy, was the presence of a parent that would stick by them through anything and suffer with them if need be.

Hopefully I am doing this for MY children and I hope they will be stronger and more adaptable to 'life' because of it.


HARMONY,

Wonderful about your Plan B darkness! I am proud. You sound like you are doing soooo well. Life must be going well.

Your a very special person, don't ever forget that. I've valued your input and what you've had to say.

You have been there, therefore you know what I should expect. I love the fact that you can give hindsight. Very valuable tool for us
still waffeling through this.

Just wanted to say thanks. Mitzie

Originally Posted by mitzie
Wonderful about your Plan B darkness! I am proud. You sound like you are doing soooo well. Life must be going well.


Thank you Mitzie, its getting kinda better, stabilizing if you like. I was such a MESS when I got here, depressed, confused, didn't know my own mind, didn't know what was right from wrong, did not understand boundaries, did not know what to expect from a marriage, and well I feel like a different person now.

What a cool place with some real special people.

Ok I am not being a brown nose here, but they just ARE.

blush



Helloooo

I am 2 weeks and 1 day in the new and improved dark as night Plan B.

Sat at home waiting for my sis, we are going out for dinner tonight so I can bore her with all my holiday stories and I can hear all her latest goss.

Tomorrow is my momma's birthday, and we are all going out for lunch to this really nice hotel/spa in the countryside.

Had a moment this morning, just a quiet one, I love him but I have had enough. Time to move on. I guess thats normal right?

I think the hardest part of Plan B without children is the loneliness. I am OK with it, but have talked to myself in the mirror a couple of times.

crazy
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
]I think the hardest part of Plan B without children is the loneliness. I am OK with it, but have talked to myself in the mirror a couple of times.

crazy

Thats news to me if I am not supposed to be talking to myself.

(Be quiet Constant people will think your crazy)

(Lol Process they already know I think)
Pay no attention to Him, He is not normal
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..
I think the hardest part of Plan B without children is the loneliness. ..

I think many people miss that even with children, you will still be lonely if you lose your spouse. Ask any of the parents here in Plan B.
OK so things are going good.

In dark plan B, IM in place, going out and enjoying myself, not feeling too needy for H. Making plans ect...

I went out with sis for dinner last night, had a really good night and then out with my mum, step mum and 2 sisters today and we just had such fun over lunch. I know that if this marriage ends that I will be OK.

I guess I need to think about an end date for Plan B as time is not on my side. It will be 1 year since D day at the beginning of March.

Harmony, I'm glad you're doing so well. Didn't see any mention of running, though. wink

I don't understand-why would you end Plan B? To go to Plan D? What do you mean that time won't be on your side? think
Originally Posted by HopeandGrace
Harmony, I'm glad you're doing so well. Didn't see any mention of running, though. wink

I don't understand-why would you end Plan B? To go to Plan D? What do you mean that time won't be on your side? think


Hi Hope

I went running yesterday morning, you cheeky monkey!! Howz about you lady?? You did say something about the treadmill?

I am 35, would love to have a family, and cannot stay in PLan B for an extended period of time. So need to set an end date. Maybe 3 months or something?

If H does not want to abide by PLan B letter then will need to move on at some point so as not to waste my chances to have a family.

Ofcourse I pray daily that he will, I love him deeply even though he has hurt me terribly in many ways.

I get a lot of pressure from my family (mum and sisters) to get the house sold, they even asked me tonight when house is back on the market. I bat them off all the time and change the subject.

I also saw OW when I was out with sis last night, it made me feel incredible rage towatds him and her!

Quote
I think many people miss that even with children, you will still be lonely if you lose your spouse. Ask any of the parents here in Plan B.

Only a few days into Plan B. H has my DD4 for weekend and so not only do I miss him, I miss her. The BS gets doubly betrayed - loss of marriage and loss of time with child.

I'd rather be in this just missing my H. That I could do. Missing both of them is the worst.

Harmony - I have one DD and so badly want another. I'm 37 and don't think I can do Plan B for long either.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hi Hope

I went running yesterday morning, you cheeky monkey!! Howz about you lady?? You did say something about the treadmill?
Um, I walked around the mall for 2 hours--surely that counts for something...;)

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I am 35, would love to have a family, and cannot stay in PLan B for an extended period of time. So need to set an end date. Maybe 3 months or something?

If H does not want to abide by PLan B letter then will need to move on at some point so as not to waste my chances to have a family.

Of course I pray daily that he will, I love him deeply even though he has hurt me terribly in many ways.

I get a lot of pressure from my family (mum and sisters) to get the house sold, they even asked me tonight when house is back on the market. I bat them off all the time and change the subject.

I also saw OW when I was out with sis last night, it made me feel incredible rage towards him and her!
Thanks for answering my impertinent question. I understand. I get lots of questions from family, too. Half of them hope the divorce will be final soon. I wish they would all get on the same page I am.

If I ever see my WH's cOW (that c is just there because it suits her so well!) I may well be arrested for making a fool of myself. Good show of restraint, Harmony!
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/24/11 12:08 AM
DrH suggests 2 years for Plan B. I intend to go longer than 2 years. I have a date in mind, but I haven't told anyone yet. And what that will actually mean is that if my WH hasn't, I will file for a D. I am not ready now. I don't think that I would have any direct contact with WH even after that date. I don't think that you need to end Plan B to go into Plan D. There are people who have continued Plan B even after a D(I believe Mulan is one of the posters whom have). It's about healing and protecting yourself.

I think that you could set a date when you will re-evaluate your life and see what is best for you. That way, if you aren't ready, you can choose to stay in Plan B for a while longer.

I figure that as long as you are still willing to take your WH back, you shouldn't try to have a relationship with someone else. It isn't really fair to the other person. KWIM?
Hi All

I am still dark and firm in my Plan B. In fact I am more resolute than ever about what I deserve in a marriage and that I could never return to how things were. I am also really comfortable with being in Plan B, and could never return to accepting WH back unless he accepts responsibility for his part in the demise of our M and put effort in where it is needed.

There is a tiny part of me that thought WH would contact me since I got back from hols, maybe he still will, naturally I am starting to lose patience with him and his games. I have to say something has changed in me since my holiday and I feel like I am starting to detach from my WH I think part of my love for him is locked away, and perhaps going through some part of acceptance that we may never reconcile. My deepest heart desire would be that we could rebuild this M into something amazing, I am sad that we may not have the opportunity to do so. There is something that makes me think how good it would be if we both had grown together. Please pray for me and him!!

As part of my personal recovery, things are going well, well really good actually! I am really enjoying my interior design class, and have made some nice new friends. I have a Paris trip booked away with 4 of my girlfriends for Spring time. I am really enjoying my new job, and have settled in really well. I have a real sense of starting to understand who I am, what I am all about and my likes and dislikes and most importantly for me, know my own mind. I have even relaxed about my bio clock and realise that I would be far more blessed to bring a child into this world in the right situation rather than for selfish reasons. I feel a strong inner confidence of how to deal with others, and how to handle things with grace, I am so lucky I found this place. I was so confused about life, morals, boundaries and when I came here and sadly did not have good role models which did not help. Now I understand more about how to live my life well, I can now look at those close to me and it is no wander I was in such a mess, as I was getting bad advice. It is quite a huge step to realise that you put your loved ones on a pedestal that that may not have the right answers or your best intentions at heart but sometimes their own personal agendas. Although I love those around me for who they are and I have to remember that everyone has their flaws and you love all of them especially family and very close friends.

I have read back some of JL�s old posts and now things start to make a lot of sense. More on that later.

Thanks for all your support.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/24/11 09:44 PM
Hi Harmony and Constant,

Constant, You need to know that 1) I still have a good deal of impatience at my age, and that I probably wrongly felt that a few of your posts may have distracted Harm, and 2) even tho I do not know you personally (it is so easy to react to someone on the internet who you are not in touch with personally) I have respect for you and your opinion, especially in terms of what you have gone thru and your willingness to reach out to another person. I apologize for any discomfort I caused you.

Harm, well I feel good today! How could you not if you were in my shoes as a Packers fan - yesterday Green Bay defeating Chicago to get to the Super Bowl. I know you guys gave us the Beatles back in the 60's, but we invented the Super Bowl! In case you have not noticed I am tiptoeing back onto your thread here.

Anyway, and this is not exactly MB, but I am glad to see you back here and recharged after your holiday.

"I have to say something has changed in me since my holiday and I feel like I am starting to detach from my WH I think part of my love for him is locked away, and perhaps going through some part of acceptance that we may never reconcile."

What you said in the quote above may very well end up being the outcome. Nonetheless, it does not have to be, and just from a guy's point of view, I feel the ball is in his court now. Despite my voiced frustration over you and your tentative Plan B initially, I really feel that you are doing the right thing for you now, and that you are doing it well. I fully realize how hard that is. I realize that Harm because Char and I have been physically separated (her in a nuring home and me here) for over a year now. It is not the same thing of course, but the pain is still similar. I say that the ball is in his court because often times a man will allow his ego and his pride (and his testosterone) to over-shadow the very thing that he needs to do, and that is to fight for and pursue again the woman he loves and who has been and is a part of his life despite the past hurt, doubt, and transgression. When he comes to that realization he will know that kind of honesty and insight is much more important than the gamesmanship of trying to break your Plan B, get in your house when you are gone, or whatever. In other words, right now I feel you are dealing with a hurt-guy thing more than anything else, and aside from maintaining your integrity in your Plan B there isn't much else you can do! I just feel you need to give it more time, and if you feel you are starting to grit your teeth again from day to day awaiting his response to reconcile, well you may need to take another relaxing holiday. And yes, I honestly feel you need to have some kind of end date for your Plan - not too soon, but certainly not maintaining it indefinitely. Just off the top of my head I would tentatively steel myself for at least another six months or so. Sometimes men are so slow in taking a hint!

And Harm, please don't let age unduly distract you - as they say age is a number so to speak. I know about the biological clock and all that, but you are still young. Just realize that now in this time - whether it be 2 or 6 or 12 months that you give your H to reconcile - you are making yourself a better more desirable person for either your H or perhaps for someone else, whatever the case may be!

Well, I was going to suggest to Constant to be more concise in his posts, but look at me....*s*

Anyway, you wanted prayers - you shall have them.

The Best,

Tom
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/24/11 09:50 PM
Harm,

This is not at all MB - just a suggestion. As you get into the day-to-day after your holiday want to recomment a movie. On Saturday night when I was getting anxious about the Packers-Bears game (yeah I know - stupid, but a guy thing!) I was deciding to go out with a couple of friends or stay home because it was very wintery cold here. I stayed home and found a movie on a channel - "Enchanted" - read a review of it and learned it was sort of a Disney kind of fairy tale chick flick - started to watch it and I really enjoyed it. If you get a chance to see it, I would recommend.

Tom
Hi Harmony,

You are on a good path I think. Doors open if... Move on if not. You said
Quote
I have read back some of JL�s old posts and now things start to make a lot of sense. More on that later.
I read that and just smiled.

You are like all of us, we learn but it takes time to assimilate. As you read your old posts, you will realize that you have now assimilated what you learned.

Hang in there Harmony.

God Bless,

JL
[t/j]"You will be assimulated".. The Borg..

Sorry JL, couldn't help myself.

Hey Tom its all good, and I also am shorter on my patience as I have gotten older. Guess its the "Grumpy old men" syndrome. Lol.[end T/J]

I am glad you brought up that comment Harm made, about how she was frustrated in some way he had not tryied to make contact since she came back. You also saw something I felt needed to be addressed.

My first reaction though, was to say in my mind, "Didn't you send a plan B letter telling him to contact you through your Sis, and tell him you really didn't want to talk unless it was about repairing your marriage? Also isn't he just respecting your wishes? "

But I thought she would figure it out by herself, and she would see the respect in his actions, as soon as she realized she had been mistaking his desparte attempts at making contact the old way for loving attention. When he shows up through the IMs humble and confidant he can work on the marriage meeting all her terms now that will be a force to contend with.

Its not suppossed to be about reactions anymore Harm. Its supposed to be about planned actions.

Hope you too can get there and plan a good recovery.

This can be a time when the love you create will fill you both more than the feelings that once brought you together, without losing that passion. It could be a deeper love.

Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/26/11 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by Tom2010
Harm, well I feel good today! How could you not if you were in my shoes as a Packers fan - yesterday Green Bay defeating Chicago to get to the Super Bowl. I know you guys gave us the Beatles back in the 60's, but we invented the Super Bowl! In case you have not noticed I am tiptoeing back onto your thread here.

Tom,
Just to let you know I live in STEELER NATION BABY!! SO BRING IT ON!!!

Originally Posted by Tom2010
"I have to say something has changed in me since my holiday and I feel like I am starting to detach from my WH I think part of my love for him is locked away, and perhaps going through some part of acceptance that we may never reconcile."

Harmony,

You sound so grown up! I think you may be ready for an adult relationship! Good for you. Great for you! Keep us posted.

HI MB Peeps

Just checking in, not much to say appart from that I am feeling good! Very strange feeling have not felt this in a long time, so much so I am worried that something bad in going to happen!! Finally I feel like I am back on my feet.

My main concern now is whether I am starting to shut the lights out on H, and how I will feel if he does turn up. I really feel as though my love for him is starting to die, and maybe because of some of his qualities such as him wanting to see me suffer and in so much pain, can I really live my life with someone who would want to do that...? I guess thats my only issue. I know I certainly won't be able to live with the H I had, knowing what I have learnt here. I will be able to forgive him, but is he really the man i want to spend the rest of my life with? Will he take care of me when I need him...?

I know that some people say, his actions are a direct result of my affair, I disagree I cannot be held responsible for all that has happened. 1 revenge affair maybe, but 4 with the emotional abuse whilst I was dealing with my Dads illness, thats all too much.

Hi Tom

Good to see you back on my thread, was quite upset that you lost hope in me. I have no excuses for breaking Plan B, just that dealing with my father passing was very traumatic and still is, so just did not have the power to fend off H when he turned up. Anyway, I am much further on course now and feeling the benefits of the darkness. PrincessMeggy was right, it really does take a few goes of Plan B before the BS really gets it.

Ofcourse, this feeling of stability does make me look back and realise how poorly he treated me, I know I can probably forgive him, but whether I will want to reconcile with him is another matter. I have really seen him in a different light. I remain optimistic.

Hi Constant

Yes your right that it is about planned actions, and we both need this time to give us the stability to see whether we can both put in the effort and commitment to recovering this marriage. It is not going to be easy.

Hi Mitzie

Good to see you on my thread! Yes starting to think I may be at 35, finally ready for a relationship and all that it brings with it. Just have to set an end date on Plan B.

Take care,

Harmony.
PS. Tom I will take you up on your movie recommend and let you know how I get on!!
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/26/11 08:55 PM
Hi Harmony. It sounds like you're doing much, much better. Great to hear.

And I agree with you that your WH's A is not a result of your A. His actions are all his.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/26/11 11:56 PM
Hi Harm,

Believe it or not Harm I am going to bring Char here tomorrow for a few days, and then on Friday to dinner, for whatever she wants for our 42nd anniversary. She will probably want steak in a seafood restaurant, or seafood in a steakhouse. She is sometimes unpredicatable and controversial, but I still adore that woman!

Harm, and of course this is not at all Marriage Builders, but is simply that I feel your H over time has put you down so much. And, now maybe you are realizing that. But, believe me, MB aside and Plan B aside, IF I were him, and I truely loved you, I would walk through fire. Well, I am not him, and I have Char.


I think now that just telling you that I will say prayers for you just doesn't seem to cut it. Only thing I can say is, again, I am not in your shoes, but you seem to be doing the right thing.

I will pray for you hard to Mary tonight - she is my heroine - of course that is Catholic based, but whatever.

Just you take care Harm,

Tom
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/27/11 05:36 AM
To Harm, but a t/j for abit..

Well Mitzie, two class teams and two groups of class fans, so let 'em have at it! The terrible towels tho may make a difference! By the way, I cannot help but laugh and smile abit now with your name - we have a cat - age two and her name is mitzie. Char named her when we got her - named after the dancer Mitzi Gaynor. Char was a dancer in back in the 1960's. Typical of females tho, mitzie loves to be held and petted, teased, scratched under her chin, and her butt petted and rubbed. What can I say!

Harm, I apologize for the t/j. Just wanted to assure you of my support and prayers. No one can predict what is in your future, but just keep true to your feelings now and your plan. Of all the people I have seen here, you just seem like a wonderful person!

I am so excited tonight and up late - cannot sleep - I am picking her up tomorrow morning to bring her home for our anniversary. Dinner, movies, and who knows what, but I am excited at having her here.

Take care Harm,

Tom

Hi Tom!!

Originally Posted by Tom2010
Harm, and of course this is not at all Marriage Builders, but is simply that I feel your H over time has put you down so much. And, now maybe you are realizing that. But, believe me, MB aside and Plan B aside, IF I were him, and I truely loved you, I would walk through fire. Well, I am not him, and I have Char.

I agree with your entirely. I just hope he sees it before he is too late, with every day that passes a little piece of my love for him dies, because I look back at how he treated me. Though what I have learnt here, finding some peace and defining my boundaries, I look back and realise how poorly he treated me. With my father passing away it has made me realise how precious life is and that you only want to surround yourself with people who treat you positively. I am a very forgiving person, and would if he wanted it enough and accepted some responsbility. Time will tell.

I hope you have a lovely time with Char, maybe just though what I have learnt here is that I want a good man who appreciates me, and I can be the same towards him.

Happy anniversary for you both for tomorrow. If I can ever have you what you I will be the luckiest woman alive.

Harmony
Originally Posted by Delta_
Hi Harmony. It sounds like you're doing much, much better. Great to hear.

And I agree with you that your WH's A is not a result of your A. His actions are all his.


Thanks I certainly feel better Delta. Good gracious its been so long since I have felt 'normal' again.

Perhaps time on my own, space from my H, no contact with OCM (other creepy man), have made me feel this way.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/27/11 11:54 PM
Hi Harm...just taking a break - Char is watching tv before I make a Chef-Boyardee pizza - the kind we had when we just started out.

A couple of funny things happened. Well, the first is not that funny, but we laughed about it. I think it was the third time she asked me when we got home here "do you like my makeup" Well, I am guilty! I didn't bother to notice that much and didn't compliment her, and yea that is a serious no-no! Well, I somehow weasled my way out of that, and then when she was changing she yelled at me from the bathroom "what's wrong with my boob". When I looked it did look sort of like a small laceration of sorts - about the size of a dime. She sometimes falls when walking, so I thought at very first she could have hurt herself, but something in back of my mind told me to ask her to dab it with some wet tissue. When she did it came off - was a dab of chocolate ice cream that she had a little earlier that feel down her front. Oh boy! We laughed.

Nothing MB here - just relaying to you that older coots can have fun too!

Take care,

Tom



Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/31/11 04:41 AM
Hi Harmony,

I hope that you had as good as possible a week and weekend, and that the time you are spending in your Plan B is helping You. I happened to think of you as well as others on here when Char sort of brought up a challenge to me when she was here. She has told me this before, but this weekend she really reiterated it - trying to gain the credentials to become a mental health counselor. Not quite the same thing as rebuilding a marriage, but alot of challenges tho. She would be so good at it, and her counselor even told her that. Realistically tho it would require her to become computer/Internet literate - even tho our son and daughter and I have tried to teach her and even have her take a course she has resisted. She would need to in order to take courses on the Internet. Far out? Yes, but still and all I want to look at trying to help her get motivated to learn and attempt it. Maybe not realistic, but more challenging things are accomplished by people every day.

Take care...

Tom

Tom the storys you tell and the sweetness you show your wife are/is awesome.
Just checkin in Harm, glad to see your doing well. hurray
Hi Guys

H has tried to break Plan B most of the weekend.

He left a paper note in the letter box at the house on Friday saying that he hoped I had a good time skiing and that all was ok. Ofcourse I ignored this, and he came to the house about midnight (I was out) and left another message saying - I can only assume you have met someone as I have not heard from you.

Then Saturday night about 1am in the morning H phoned the home phone about 3 times.

I just feel frustrated more than anything. I feel frustrated at the way he has ignored my Plan B letter, that he cannot simply try and contact my IM, and that he STILL cannot communicate with me, just gets drunk and emotional and contacts me then.

So I am really really starting to wander if he is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. I am really starting to check out here. Its not my love for him thats in question, thats still there, its just his qualities, who he is, what he has done.....


Phewey.
sigh
Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/31/11 12:42 PM
Harmony,

You're really sounding much more in CONTROL of your emotions.Good for you hurray. I find the only way right now for me is to ignore my feelings for WH. frown

Lucky me though, my work hired a part-time lady who worked for years in the drug/alcohol rehab field. She answered some questions I had(about WH & OW relationship- good for me that those kind of relationships do end, but end badly,and only/if one/both of them gets sober and that could take years,many, many years).She advised me stick with Alanon and find a therapist qualified to deal with addictions. I'm so happy God put her in my path.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
So I am really really starting to wander if he is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. I am really starting to check out here. Its not my love for him thats in question, thats still there, its just his qualities, who he is, what he has done.....


Phewey.
sigh

So, these are also my thought about WH. He would have to get sober(not gonna happen)for himself cuz I don't think I want to deal with 'wonderng if he'll start that kind of lifestyle' again. Work friend did say when WH starts to hit bottom he will seek me out because I'm the ONLY truly sober person he knows. Yipee for me ,not. frown

You said you quit smoking. Still quit? I'm tryin'. I'm having a hard time. Seems those cigarettes are more of 'friend' to me right now...I don't want to quit my addictive 'friend' yet! How'd you do it Harm?
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Hi Guys

H has tried to break Plan B most of the weekend.

He left a paper note in the letter box at the house on Friday saying that he hoped I had a good time skiing and that all was ok. Ofcourse I ignored this, and he came to the house about midnight (I was out) and left another message saying - I can only assume you have met someone as I have not heard from you.

Then Saturday night about 1am in the morning H phoned the home phone about 3 times.

I just feel frustrated more than anything. I feel frustrated at the way he has ignored my Plan B letter, that he cannot simply try and contact my IM, and that he STILL cannot communicate with me, just gets drunk and emotional and contacts me then.

So I am really really starting to wander if he is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. I am really starting to check out here. Its not my love for him thats in question, thats still there, its just his qualities, who he is, what he has done.....


Phewey.
sigh


Do you have knoweldge that he accually recieved the plan B letter? You did just drop it in your own maibox assuming he would pick it up. Did he ever in any way tell you that he got the letter? Oh wait. your in plan B, and you have heard that from Sis the IM right?

This is why I said your should send it certified mail, that requires him to sign it and you get a reciept. You have no idea whether he got the letter or not, your just "guessing" he is ignoring it.

Clear and open communication Harm.

Im wondering does anybody else see this? How can she be sure he got the letter? What vets does she do?

Ok Harmony. I am glad you are doing better. God Bless you.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/01/11 04:09 AM
Hi Constant,

It's very easy for me to talk about Char, and our history - she is simply the most honest loving and loyal person I could know.

Tom
Time to change your phone #. Next time there's a knock at your door in the middle of the night, call the police and report a prowler.

Sweep all notes and letters on your doorstep into the trash unread.

He's read your letter. He's playing games acting like if he pretends he didn't read the letter, he doesn't know his behavior is repulsive to you. He wants to play Harmony.

Go further into the dark, girl. Make yourself not play the messages. Make yourself do more to go dark. A disconnected phone # will go a LONG way to getting that point across.

Change the locks. He shouldn't be able to get into your house, unassisted by your IM, PERIOD!
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/01/11 04:24 AM
Hi Harm,

"just gets drunk and emotional and contacts me then."

IMHO you are just going to have to tough this out as you have been doing. For his sake and for your sake. I don't think he is any good to you now and as a marital partner if he's relying on booze and emotions to win you back.

If you think you are hurting tho, we are now facing 20" of snow starting tomrrow here in the Chicago area!

Please take care..

Tom
Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
He's read your letter. ..

I don't believe it Kayla, mostly because of how he has acted the couple times he has talked with her before. I believe he sees her as avoiding him and looking for someone else.

Now if he had read it, and he continued to act this way, I am right with you on thr rest of the suggestions.


Does anybody here agree that it is imperative that WH accually GETS the plan B letter? Or that its important that Harmony KNOWS it?
Originally Posted by Tom2010
..If you think you are hurting tho, we are now facing 20" of snow starting tomrrow here in the Chicago area!

Ouch!
Hi Guys

OK things are starting to get tough. I am still dark, but I think he is breaking.

Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
He's read your letter. He's playing games acting like if he pretends he didn't read the letter, he doesn't know his behavior is repulsive to you. He wants to play Harmony.

He has read the letter, I left it in the post box before I went on holiday and he opened it, read it, and left it on the kitchen table in the house.

He has been trying to break Plan B all weekend whilst drunk and now he has just left an urgent message with my work receptionist saying that I need to call him urgently.

He is in pain, I can tell, and I do not like seeing him go through this. I know how it feels.

Why has he ignored the letter? Why do I feel panicked about him contacting me rather than happy? Why does he make me get all jittery the thought of having contact with him again.

What do I do?
I am being very honest here, I love him, but I am not sure I he is 'right' for me. I have too many concerns about him. Time appart has made me reflect. Oh god.

Help!
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/01/11 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
He has been trying to break Plan B all weekend whilst drunk and now he has just left an urgent message with my work receptionist saying that I need to call him urgently.

He is in pain, I can tell, and I do not like seeing him go through this. I know how it feels.

Harmony, good for you for not responding.

You're not cracking this time, and he knows it.

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
Why do I feel panicked about him contacting me rather than happy? Why does he make me get all jittery the thought of having contact with him again.

You answered this for yourself in your next post.

Stay strong, Harmony.

You are not going to settle for anything less than the best for you, and that is a wonderful thing!
Thank you Delta.

I am determined to stay strong and dark. I do not like thinking of him in pain, whatever the outcome. I suppose thats the hardest part, I really do not like that but am getting better at it. I can't rescue him.

All he will do is just go off on me again.

Originally Posted by Delta_
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
He has been trying to break Plan B all weekend whilst drunk and now he has just left an urgent message with my work receptionist saying that I need to call him urgently.

He is in pain, I can tell, and I do not like seeing him go through this. I know how it feels.

You are not going to settle for anything less than the best for you, and that is a wonderful thing!

It is truly a wonderful thing! I can love him but not accept anything appart from the best. I am frightened though, really frightened that I will get back with him because of my love for him and because I will find it too hard to truly walk away. My inner gut says get out. There is too much to 'fix'.

P
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/01/11 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I can't rescue him.
Amen!

Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I am frightened though, really frightened that I will get back with him because of my love for him and because I will find it too hard to truly walk away. My inner gut says get out. There is too much to 'fix'.

One of the great parts of Plan B is that you don't need to decide anything right now. You're giving yourself the gift of time to live in peace and to make thoughtful, sound choices at the appropriate hour.

You don't need to decide anything right now. (repeat, repeat)

Stay strong, Harmony. I'll be thinking of you today. smile
H has contacted IM he is going to come into the house and change the locks if I don't let him in and will stop paying the mortgage.

If I really leave this man he is going to make things difficult.

Hope - thanks for your thoughts.

Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/01/11 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
H has contacted IM he is going to come into the house and change the locks if I don't let him in and will stop paying the mortgage.

If I really leave this man he is going to make things difficult.

He can certainly stop paying the mortgage, but change the locks on a home you currently reside in? I don't think so.

At this point he is venting about your new arrangement. He doesn't like it. He can no longer manipulate you through status quo tactics, so now he is attempting to exert ANY control that he may have.

Smile. You are affecting him.

Harmony,

Right now Plan B is working and he is seeing that you are serious about not settling for the same man, he has read the letter, he knows what you are thinking....
He is trying to threaten right now because this is all he has........
He will learn that unless he approaches this the right way that there is no hope for him, he doesn't like not being able to control you and the situation.......
I would contact your lawyer make sure you know your legal rights here just so there is no questions and relay a message to him through the IM about the locks.
Of course it hurts to watch someone you care about hurting but Harmony he has choices and he is still picking the wrong ones..........that is not a man willing to change, that is the same old controlling guy..............not what you need in your life now, you have grown so much, don't take any steps backwards.........
Re-send the Plan B letter, registered mail this time, refresh his memory on what his choices should be if he really wants to re-build the marriage........
Be strong..............(hugs).............jessi
Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/01/11 02:55 PM
Oh Harmony, sweet Harmony...


YOU are my HERO! Honestly,you are! hurray

I see you went into Plan B a little over 3 months ago? And already you have grown so much.

If you read my thread, you'll see I texted WH out of anger last night. Now after a good nights sleep and the light of day...not a good idea. Not that it's triggered anything for ME, but I don't want WH to think I'm breaking Plan B letter(which I did!).

Now I SEE, thanks to you Harmony, that the only way to heal MYSELF is through a dark Plan B.

I'm still on the right path, I'm hoping, but it seems like such a lonnng road...even if I know the out come will be my own inner peace.

What are the laws in UK regarding changing locks on residence? I realise you aren't in US and they may be vastly different there then here.

Don't know if you like BonJovi...but found this video on nESRE's thread...love it...thought you might too:


youtube
Harmony - Are you going to al anon meetings?

Did your Plan B letter include addiction recovery before marital recovery?

Take steps if you must to stop him from having access to the house; I know you have doubts about filing for divorce at this point but you're getting close in your thought processes. And the lines that you are thinking about are good - do you really want this man as he is, back?

Keep the bar raised really high. Filing for divorce and receiving notice from lawyers that he can no longer bully you around about locks or property or payments will protect you from this sort of behavior.

He wants to escalate in order to get your attention - bad attention is better to him than no attention. Don't take the bait. Instead, secure your rights to have no contact and if that means filing for divorce, do it with no warning and no threats.
PS He really needs to find his bottom before he'll start to return to any sensible recovery from alcohol or OW addictions. You have to get out of his way for him to do that. You can't be a soft place for him to land because he'll avoid recovery until he hits bottom HARD.
Hi Guys

So pleased that he is away from me if I am honest. I have no intention of breaking Plan B, it is just a huge love buster for him to come to the house at 1am and then threaten to change the locks. I know the only way to put a stop to this, and am starting to move towards that. I am really not sure if I want to recover this marriage, yikes frown

Originally Posted by mitzie
If you read my thread, you'll see I texted WH out of anger last night. Now after a good nights sleep and the light of day...not a good idea. Not that it's triggered anything for ME, but I don't want WH to think I'm breaking Plan B letter(which I did!).


It really does work Mitzie and the only thing you should be worried about in Plan B is whether you truly want to recover your marriage.

Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
Harmony - Are you going to al anon meetings?

Did your Plan B letter include addiction recovery before marital recovery?

Take steps if you must to stop him from having access to the house; I know you have doubts about filing for divorce at this point but you're getting close in your thought processes. And the lines that you are thinking about are good - do you really want this man as he is, back?

Keep the bar raised really high. Filing for divorce and receiving notice from lawyers that he can no longer bully you around about locks or property or payments will protect you from this sort of behavior.

He wants to escalate in order to get your attention - bad attention is better to him than no attention. Don't take the bait. Instead, secure your rights to have no contact and if that means filing for divorce, do it with no warning and no threats.


No I am not going to al-anon meetings. I guess he uses drink when he is low or tries to deal with things. I am really in trouble you know, he is escalating. I am concerned now that he has busted the locks when I get home and I am suppose to be going out. I hope he doesn't stoop that low to lock me out of the house.

The bar is high, I am ok, just want to have a quiet life surrounded by postivity, I owe that to my father.
I need to resend him PLan B letter, what if I am not sure about wanting him back though? Is that not 'leading him on'?

Thanks for your support today guys.
Once your H responds to your plan B, RECOVERY is a whole different ball game.

(I hear you are wondering "if" you want to recover at all) I have read quite a few threads, and this question comes up frequently. I think it is a normal part of the process of plan b.

If he comes back in the future, it will take time to figure out if true recovery is in your future. You have to see that the changes you require will stay, that does not happen overnight.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
..He has read the letter, I left it in the post box before I went on holiday and he opened it, read it, and left it on the kitchen table in the house...

Again? Well then Harm he has such little respect for all that work, you just stay dark then. After he moved out and left the first letter all crumpled up,(it really didn't leave a way back like the second one did), I felt you needed to be dark and be certain that he had some healthy way to deal with himself. So I pushed another letter.

Now that you KNOW he is being a child again, you gotta let him crash on his own. You can't pin the B letter to his lapel like some little kid from a home for waywards.

I am glad that he read the letter. I don't think you owe him anything but clear communication and the offer to work on the marriage and at this time he just rejects that.

I have been on the edge of my seat for months waiting for him to get a good plan B letter, so we could talk about your recovery, and it would have satisfied my need for fairness. In both what I know about life, my belief in MB, and the reason we are all here also. Without him getting a way home, all advice would be wrong, based on a faulted foundation.

You see what I mean in that?

Now it is truly a dark well laid out plan B, Yay Harm. I hope your WH will get help for his issues, and will learn how to communicate,(half of what IS listening), but he is not ready to work on the marriage yet. If he is still in the drinking, fantasy, boo-hoo stage, he still has to work on himself anyways.

Keep working on you, understanding yourself and what makes you tick, along with time to just be happy. You have the capacity and I will be looking forward to watching you grow and gain even more wisdom as time moves on.
hug freind
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I need to resend him PLan B letter, what if I am not sure about wanting him back though? Is that not 'leading him on'?

Thanks for your support today guys.

It clear that you don't want that man back, thats what the letter is for, to give him that message.

I just read the rest of the thread and everybodys advice. All good. So no need to repeat it.

Alanon for you would be a good idea, you can never get enough education and you will find others dealing with family members there who are lost. It doesn't mean you will have to do ANYTHING towards marriage reconciliation. You are not his keeper at that level, that is his own battle he is responsible for.
Hello Peeps

H turned up at house last night when I was on my way out (sober).

He shouted at me from outside the house that unless I let him in, he was going to break in and change the locks and that he is paying the mortgage and has rights to access to the house. He also said he refuses to use the IM and that we need to be adults, and that using my IM is childish. I ignored him and stayed upstairs.

He parked his car outside the house and sat there for ages, so I got in my car, left the house and went and stayed at my sisters.

I know for sure I love him but that I am tired of his approach.

My only option is to get the house on the market to be sold or to be rented out. As long as I live there, he will never leave me alone. I know that I will recover through continued Plan B.

Sometimes I just wish I could stand up and say, Harmony file for divorce move on with your life. It is fear that is stopping me from doing this, fear that I am going to break down realising that I have made a mistake. Fear of letting go. Fear I make the wrong decision. I know that if we got back together it would never be bad, we would probably recover ish, but I am not sure we would ever be 'great'.

Same old same old.

Time is passing by and I am no further forward. Bit depressed about it all today.

banghead



Time for you to read Mimi's story. The house was a turning point for her. I believe it will be for you as well.
Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
Time for you to read Mimi's story. The house was a turning point for her. I believe it will be for you as well.


Thanks Kayla, I have read Mimi's thread many times and I think your right. It was a definite turning point for her.

I think the house is providing a big emotional connection for me, without that I wonder.

I want to move on, I really feel I want to get the house on the market and file. I am scared of tieing up all the loose ends. I know he is not in my life or hasn't been for 3/4 months but I am scared of lettting go.

JL - if you are around, I would appreciate a little perspective on these thoughts. I do love him and it will be painful for me to end this.
Harmony,

I've been following along here just haven't had much to say. However, your request for perspective did trigger a few things for me.

Let me be candid and I am sorry if this hurts.

One of the things I've been trying to decide is "who is the bad guy here?"

1. You had the affair, you moved out (if I recall correctly) and then came back.

2. He tried to handle it and handled it badly, trying to punish you, having his own affair.

3. You pushed him out of the house, which apparently he pays for, and you have gone plan B.

You seem to be confusing plan B, with filing for divorce. At least it seems this way from some of your posts.

So as I look at this, who is the "bad guy". Well, the answer is you both are. You both have made a complete mess of this, and frankly things weren't that good before your affair.

I've seen your picture, you are an attractive young lady, you are successful in your career, you have many friends, and certainly you have no trouble finding things to do over the holidays or anytime for that matter.

Let's throw in a few other things. You have lost your Dad very recently, and it would appear your H has a tendency toward abuse if he is not abusive.

Let's see any other things I can throw into the pot here? I'm sure I have missed something.

So you asked for perspective. And here is where I struggle with you. You can divorce and I am sure you will lead as good a life as you decide to make it. That really depends on your boundaries, your goals, and your integrity. You control all of that. Couple that with your career, your obvious ability in social circles, and intellect and I see no problems.

Yet, making a decision like this while mourning the loss of your Dad is not a great idea, in fact it is not recommended by anyone.

It is not clear to me that you have really faced what you did to your H with your affair, partly because of the push back from him and his desire to punish you. But, that needs to be resolved.

Your H's behavior has been poor in response to your affair, and perhaps before the affair. He has not shown a lot of inclination toward self-examination, at least from what you have written.

YET...you love him and apparently he loves you. And here is the rub, neither of you acting in a loving manner toward the other and you need to for this marriage to continue.

I sense the house is a bone of contention. Perhaps removing it from both of your lifes is a good thing. I also wonder if you would not do both of you a favor by moving on and letting each of you chose a new life. Yet, there is the admonition above about doing something so drastic while in grief.

Frankly, Harmony I don't sense you working to hard to discuss things with your H. I know you are in plan B, but he is not honoring it and plan B is until you decide to divorce or he decides to change his behavior.

I wonder if a sit down with a lawyer or two present might be best. I mean air it out and see if there is a way forward for this relationship. A lot of damage has been done by both of you. A lot of learning in introspection must be done by both of you, has that occurred. I know on your side it has with perhaps more needed, I have no clue about your H.

I can also see why he is mad. He is making payments on the house, but must pay to live elsewhere. Most of us guys get a bit "testy" about such things. wink

Harmony, here is something I can tell you for certain. It will be "painful" for you to end this marriage, and it will be "painful" for you and your H to save it. There is no avoiding the pain given the pain that has already occurred.

So please don't make this choice based on "pain", but on what is right...for you and for your H. I think you need more data, but you seem to be doing fine without him in your life and that in itself is data.

Sorry I cannot really offer you any concrete help.

God Bless,

JL
I agree with JL Harm, his whole post was objective and also the way I see things as they unraveled.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
..Harmony, here is something I can tell you for certain. It will be "painful" for you to end this marriage, and it will be "painful" for you and your H to save it. There is no avoiding the pain given the pain that has already occurred.

So please don't make this choice based on "pain", but on what is right...for you and for your H. I think you need more data, but you seem to be doing fine without him in your life and that in itself is data...

The highlighted sentence is all you can ever do, but the whole quote is true.

Still no hurry, many guys say the same things about IMs and being adults. You still have control of the choices in your life.
Hi JL

Thank you, your post has helped me a great deal. I know you said it was not of concrete help but it has given me some things to consider.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
So as I look at this, who is the "bad guy". Well, the answer is you both are. You both have made a complete mess of this, and frankly things weren't that good before your affair.

Yes I agree, that none of this would have never happened if I had not had the affair, so in that way I am the bad guy in all of this. I behaved appallingly. I acted selfishly and without thought to the man I loved. I did it because I was not convinced who I was with was enough for me.

I also agree that this is not the right time to make a decision, every now and again I get a little frustrated at not moving forward, but I guess I am moving forward as I am in Plan B and Plan B is self recovery. Even if to everyone else I am 'stuck'.

I guess the reason I have become a little 'panicked' is because I know that my H is starting to break under Plan B and will want to reconcile and I am nervous that it is the wrong thing for me to do.

You said:

Originally Posted by Just Learning
It is not clear to me that you have really faced what you did to your H with your affair, partly because of the push back from him and his desire to punish you. But, that needs to be resolved.


I don't think I have had chance to face what I did with the affair, as soon as he found out he was off doing his 'thing'. We never sat and talk about it, he just acted out. I think I have only really just accepted it and learnt to live with myself for it, I don't think I will ever forgive myself I am still very ashamed about it, uncomfortable telling other people about it.

I agree with you about H paying for the house and not living in it, I know he is not paying anything at his mum and dads house but it is still not the point, I would not like it, so I know that this needs to be sorted. That either I need to move out and rent the house or it needs to be sold. This is difficult for me, I have moved so many times in my life I am desperate to settle, but also with the loss of my father I really struggle with having to move, figuring where to go, sorting out mortgage...ect....Big pants time?



Originally Posted by Just Learning
Harmony, here is something I can tell you for certain. It will be "painful" for you to end this marriage, and it will be "painful" for you and your H to save it. There is no avoiding the pain given the pain that has already occurred.

So please don't make this choice based on "pain", but on what is right...for you and for your H. I think you need more data, but you seem to be doing fine without him in your life and that in itself is data.


I won't make a decision right now, as you said I am in Plan B but I think my H is very close to talking reconciliation so I may not be able to avoid it.

I am doing fine without him, I have started to make new friends, I seem to be bouncing out of the bed in the morning, I know that I will be OK. I guess I fear cutting the ties silly things like changing my name, old photos of us together, him with his new girlfriend, dividing our things...That scares me. Letting go really.

One question you asked me very early on is that what does my H do to sustain me? What does he bring to my life? I have started to really think about this lately. I know I can forgive him for his behaviour of the last year and for the OW. I just think what does he really bring to my life? Just before the affair I felt he added stress to my life, always ill, doing irresponsible acts, business in crisis. I took on the biggest amount of responsibility sorting the bills, holdiays, things to do, ideas, making sure he was ok ect...Not only that but I was the one who had been travelling, had adventures, learnt things, tried new things. I guess I have never had a strong male role model in my life who has taken care of me, and that I am use to being independant, not relying on a man, taking care of myself and them.

However, from what I have learnt here, I am ready maybe for someone who will come along and take care of me aswell, show me new things, bring something into my life.




Thanks JL and Constant.
Posted By: Delta_ Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/03/11 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I acted selfishly and without thought to the man I loved. I did it because I was not convinced who I was with was enough for me.

While all of that may be true, that is not the real cause of why you had an affair.

I say this because in the future, you may likewise not be convinced that H or another man is enough for you.

What then?
Hi Delta

Ofcourse itwas that and my lack of morals/boundaries.

Originally Posted by Delta_
I say this because in the future, you may likewise not be convinced that H or another man is enough for you.

What then?


That could happen, I don't have a crystal ball. I like to think that would not happen.
Harmony,

You said a few things I thought I would respond to. You said
Quote
I guess I have never had a strong male role model in my life who has taken care of me, and that I am use to being independant, not relying on a man, taking care of myself and them.

However, from what I have learnt here, I am ready maybe for someone who will come along and take care of me aswell, show me new things, bring something into my life.


Others might not agree, but I firmly believe life is a team sport. I think marriage is a team sport. Two things always set my teeth on edge. People who talk about everything being shared "equally" and being "too independent". The first group are really tally keepers, and tally keepers always seem to want things equal, so that they get "their share" of whatever. Marriage is not about "equal" it is about balance, strengths and weaknesses being balanced off of one another. I hear "too independent" and I hear frightened, I hear unwilling, I hear unclear on the concept.

My point. People who are "independent" in a marriage are often too frightened to really commit and take the risk. They are often weak people masking their weakness with independent behavior, or simply people who are focused on themselves.

I am giving you this lecture ( a very brief version of it) precisely because you think your H is about to meet your Plan B requirements and try to restart the marriage. I cannot tell you what he will say or do, but I know what you had better be doing, thinking of your boundaries, realizing that you must let people in, and also realizing that if your marriage is to make it you two must become a team. You don't/didn't view it as that, hence there was bound to be a sense of entitlement on your part. He felt you would cover for him, so he just did what he wanted. You two fed one another's weaknesses by not recognizing each others strengths.

A good marriage has balance, just as Harley talks about balance between the "giver and the taker." A good marriage maximizes one anothers strengths, and helps minimize the weaknesses. A good marriage is full of care, and sharing.

I suspect you two could have that, IF...you both decided to really look in the mirror and change many things. If either of you are not willing to do this, then the marriage is over.

I cannot and will not tell you which is right for you, because life is non-linear, and only small changes on each of your parts can lead to great changes in the prognosis of this marriage.

Get your head right, start to decide what you really need, and realize he could be the man to give you that IF...

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL
Right on JL, strengths and weaknesses, team effort.
Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/04/11 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I guess I have never had a strong male role model in my life who has taken care of me, and that I am use to being independant, not relying on a man, taking care of myself and them.

However, from what I have learnt here, I am ready maybe for someone who will come along and take care of me aswell, show me new things, bring something into my life.

My life is just the opposite, Harm. How polar opposites we are, yet our sitch are the same. I had strong role model who always took care of me, my dad. He still does to a certain extent now.

I have never had to really take care of myself. I'm good at taking care of other people (kids, spouse, ill parents, ill friends, ect...).

I look at you Harmony and I think "WOW, she's really got it all together!" You can take care of youself, you have a career, you have what seems to be an exciting life...

I have always dreamed of being that kind of woman. I was raised in a very traditional sorta house. My dad worked, my mum didn't. My dad took care of bills and yardwork, my mum took care of kids and housework. It worked for them. THAT didn't work for me. But how was I to know that?

You are ready to have someone take care of you; and you should have someone at least TRY to take care of you. Maybe your WH is ready to become that man. Only time will tell.

All I know is this: YOU ARE AWESOME!!!

Mitzie

P.S. I love,love love Jaoquin Pheonix...I could just eat him up...yummy!
Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/06/11 04:50 PM
HARMONY.....

WHERE ARE YOU GIRL??!?!?!?
What's up, sweet Harmony? I hope everything is going well for you.
Hi MB Friends!!

Just checking into say hello!! Been pretty busy lately I have an assignment going on with my interior design course, bought a super duper new sports car and been spending time with friends and family. Still feeling great wondering when it all comes crashing down!

Everything is good and thanks for your messages. Been thinking about JL's post lots and have a proper update tomorrow to give on WH and Plan B.

Hope your all well.

Harmony
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/09/11 10:33 PM
Hi Ms. Harmony,

Just got caught up on your story, but I need to ask you a question.. when you are ready I will ask it,

Thanks,

Tom
toe tap Proper update on WH and Plan B? Any time you're ready, I am. smile
Yes Harm, whats up in the jolly old UK?
Hi MB Friends

All is well in the jolly old UK. Been really busy lately basically enjoying life! My assignment has been due in for my interior design course so have been busy working on that.

The grief for my father is slowly starting to surface and although I am doing ok it is a very strange feeling. I am going upto Scotland in 2 weeks to 'go see him' I am a bit apprehensive about that. The tears for my father have stopped but I feel as though they are bottled up.

Ok so update on my H. He continues to ignore Plan B and refuses to go through IM, he turns up on my doorstep demanding my attention during the day or drunk in the middle of the night. This has happened 3 or 4 times. It annoys me how he turns up on a whim wanting my attention and I said to him about the letter and he said that's why I am here to talk, I told him I could not talk now I was on my way out and he sulked and said ok well you can call me to arrange something!!! So I just stayed in Plan B.

I can only describe how I feel about the situation. I feel bored with him and
now back on my feet with boundaries in place and desiring a better marriage. His actions are way off the mark. I am continuing in my Plan B and I have little desire to ressurect this marriage, he does not seem to have changed at all.

I think we both know that this marriage is dead. I just fel to let him back into my life would be too much of a risk and so much has happened. I look back at the marriage nothing I ever did was good enough, he did not appreciate me and he still continues to treat me that way.

Not a great update but half hearted attempts from WH to meet Plan B letter ate not what I am after, that plus no signs in change of behaviour.

Hope everyone is well x
Posted By: mitzie Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/17/11 01:21 PM
Harmony!
I really missed you around here.

Sorry you're having a rough time about your dad's passing. Let it out and grieve.

I rarely give out advice because I feel I haven't experienced enough about life yet, but I'll tell you the two things I feel strong enough to give advice about...one being what NOT to do when you you find out your spouse/SO is having an affair and the other is grieving over the death of loved one.

Harmony, you've spent so much time, grieving over the death of your marriage to fully grieve over your dad's passing. You have got to grieve over that.

When my mum passed away ten years ago I didn't just lose my mother but also my best friend. At that time I had been helping my dad take care of her(she had matasisicised breast cancer into her spine), working 35+ hours a week, taking care of a house, husband and two small children. When she died I was emotionally and physically exhausted. Both from taking care of her and the other stuff in my life. I never fully grieved. That sent me in what I now know to be a SEVEN year state of, for lack of better word, partial amnesia. I say amnesia but it was really a deep, deep depression that was undiagnosed.

What woke me up from that seven year depression was WH A #1. I went into IC(we did a few MC but WH didn't go back) and started antidepressants. After a while I started realizing there are YEARS I have trouble remembering what happened during that year, specifics I don't fully remeber. I look at pictures from five or six years ago and I think I kinda remember doing this or that but it's not a full memory.

I don't want that to happen to you Harm. Losing a parent is a very emotional time. But now ten years down the road and TWO WH affairs later I can honestly say the emotional damage from the A's is much worse than losing my mom. My mome is gone. I won't ever see her physcially again, or talk to her or hear her laugh. That's final. She's not of this world anymore. I'm not going to ever by some strange twist of fate ever run into her in a little shop while on vacation 1700 miles away from home(yes, I have met people from my hometown while on vacation far away from home!)

WH is still here physically. Right now. On this earth, walking, talking, breathing the same air I breath. He no longer lives in our home, I no longer see him or talk to him. But he is HERE. Knowing that makes it harder.

You and your WH don't have any children so you won't have any 'ties' to him if you do D him and move on with your life, meaning you won't have to see him at your children's weddings or grandchildren's b'day parties or family functions if they take place at one of the kids houses.

But you did spend so much time and emotional energy on the man.

I don't want you to lose your marriage Harmony. I beleive in fighting for what you beleive in. You beleive in marriage or you wouldn't be here at MB.

But like they preach here on the boards, "TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF FIRST". If that means grieving for the loss of a parent you loved dearly then make that your priority. Your WH can wait. Your marriage can wait. If it's meant to be, you and he, if he WANTS to be with you Harmony and loves you like he says he does, he WILL wait. He'll let you go through the process.

Unlike the TWO of you having to work on the marriage, grieving over the death of someone you loved/love has to be individually at your own pace, in your own way, in your own time.

The K�bler-Ross model, more commonly known as the stages of grief, lists the seven stages of grief one goes through. From what I understand some don't go through the stages in the exact steps, but all seven stages must be gone through or you get 'stuck' (like I did)in a stage and never fully move on in the grieving process. A lot of people use this greiving model for the 'death' of a marriage also.

If you don't know about the above, please google it and take a moment to look it over.

Sorry this is so long Harmony, but I really, really feel for you. You'll NEVER stop missing your dad (and you DON'T/WON'T want to smile ), and it doesn't get easier letting go, it just gets 'different'. And when you get to that feeling, that 'different' feeling you'll know you've greived long enough and you've let go and you cherish the time you had here on earth with him and you hope someday when YOU are gone that someone will cherish the time THEY spent with YOU here on this tiny beautiful planet we call earth.

All my best & prayers for you Harmony,
Mitzie
Harmony,

Glad to hear the update from you, glad that you are busy and moving forward,
I just wanted to say the you still need to give yourself some time to grieve your Dad " Good men are so hard to let go of."................Stay in Plan B and things will change for your husband or he will eventually give up.................
I think you are seeing things very clearly now, you have come such a long way from your first post.........you have grown into a very secure, confident woman.......you should be proud Harmony, it wasn't and easy road, but here you are on the other side, happy and moving forward.......
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
...Ok so update on my H. He continues to ignore Plan B and refuses to go through IM, he turns up on my doorstep demanding my attention during the day or drunk in the middle of the night. This has happened 3 or 4 times. It annoys me how he turns up on a whim wanting my attention and I said to him about the letter and he said that's why I am here to talk, I told him I could not talk now I was on my way out and he sulked and said ok well you can call me to arrange something!!! So I just stayed in Plan B.

I can only describe how I feel about the situation. I feel bored with him and
now back on my feet with boundaries in place and desiring a better marriage. His actions are way off the mark. I am continuing in my Plan B and I have little desire to ressurect this marriage, he does not seem to have changed at all...

This sloppy stuff hes doing, is tough to watch, and almost impossible to respect. I agree with the wise words of the mitzie and jessieT, and I know that if his answer to conflict is going to be drink and denial, you can't even call it a marriage anymore.

You are just starting to get some response to the plan B letter then? You have said again in different ways harm, that you dooon't really want to recover this marriage. Before it was, "I don't know if he is what I want", or "I think he will just still punish me", and a lot of reasons why you are afraid. Now you are saying one of the most understated reasons, you have lost desire for it. Poor girl, can't even get him to pull his head out of the bottle long enough to even start his recovery, never mind the marriage.

I was hoping to, trying to make sure, that you were no longer responding to your own guilt from the affair, and give him a fighting chance for his marriage, but it seems he is to wrapped up in his misery to respond fairly to you.

Now that you have reformatted the Plan B letter, and given him every opportunity to get healthy, are you glad you did? Now it is up to you, having done that, whether or not you continue to pursue the marriage. You are still young, and when you are through all the grieving from both deaths, of your marriage and then your fathers, then I think you are more than able to figure out how to move on. You will allways have a love for WH either way, but this behavior makes it impossible to be healthy around him.

There is no hurry to move forward, but you certainly have a right to live your life well. Recovery is still and allways an option, but your own personal one, having done all that can be expected.


Please keep coming here and updating us, and be part of the board if you think it will help, and maybe we can help with your personal guidance out of the woods. I know the adultry was a dark place for you, and the things that led you up to it took you by surprise.

God bless you Harm, you've come a long way, and Im proud of you. Praying for your WH also.
By the way Tom please go ahead and ask your question?
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/21/11 11:13 PM
Hey Harmony,

The last couple of weeks have been busy for me - my son had been here again for a place to stay for awhile, and now is back with his girlfirend. And Char I am really worried now, she has a drs. sppt. next Monday and has had a urinary infection or disorder now since Christmas and now needing further tests.

Harmony, my question to you simply is have you ever considered getting more formal education as a counselor for a career? I do not say this lightly and it is simply based on what I know of you from your posts here, but those tell me that you are an intellegent and caring person, and that you have experienced a serious life disappointment and have come back from that. I just have a gut feeling that you have a tremendous amount to offer others as a trained professional is all.

It is good to see from your most recent posts that you seem to be more relaxed and resolved in terms of defining Your life and Your goals. One thing I wish to comment on is that I hope you can incorporate into your thinking now that your H is probably an alcoholic - drinking to face you or to face any challenging situation is a sure sign - and that you may have to shift gears some to attempt to get him help for his sake. Harmony, I think his drinking is bothering you a great deal now because it prevents him from showing you the real him.

Never forget that you are a tremendous person!

Tom



Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/21/11 11:17 PM
By the way Harmony,

Have you ever seen the movie Random Harvest? I think you would love it.

Tom
Hey Mitzie

Good to hear from you, not posting much it has been nice to get back to normal life again. Those of you have been through pain will 'get that'.

Originally Posted by mitzie
I rarely give out advice because I feel I haven't experienced enough about life yet, but I'll tell you the two things I feel strong enough to give advice about...one being what NOT to do when you you find out your spouse/SO is having an affair and the other is grieving over the death of loved one.


I really appreciate your advice so please don't feel you are not experienced about life you obviously are! By the way one of your previous posts about me being 'awesome' I really do appreciate the compliment you know, about being independant and self reliant. I guess I admire people like just as much as it is just as hard to raise a family, be a stay at home mum and be married that long! I hope people take that the right way but we are both awesome just in different ways. You find it hard to be so independant and I would find it hard not to be!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by mitzie
Harmony, you've spent so much time, grieving over the death of your marriage to fully grieve over your dad's passing. You have got to grieve over that.

Do you know I have hardly cried since he passed away? I cried so much last year when he was ill and that coupled with the way I was being treated by BH/WH was just awful. I want to grieve but don't know how. I am going to his grave soon which is in Scotland (a flight away from where I live). It still feels a little unreal to be honest. I have had a couple of mild anxiety attacks at night in the house on my own.


Originally Posted by mitzie
I don't want that to happen to you Harm. Losing a parent is a very emotional time. But now ten years down the road and TWO WH affairs later I can honestly say the emotional damage from the A's is much worse than losing my mom. My mome is gone. I won't ever see her physcially again, or talk to her or hear her laugh. That's final. She's not of this world anymore. I'm not going to ever by some strange twist of fate ever run into her in a little shop while on vacation 1700 miles away from home(yes, I have met people from my hometown while on vacation far away from home!)

I agree the affairs and the way my H treated my was way worse than the pain of losing my father at least it feels like that. I have been over to visit my step mum a few times to see how she has been doing and she said to me do you know what Harm I think it could be worse losing someone when you know they are still out there. Step Mum is doing OK but everytime I see her, it is a stark reminder my father is gone. Ofcourse that doesn't matter I still go see her, but I probably can associate her loss maybe better than my 2 older sisters.

Originally Posted by mitzie
You and your WH don't have any children so you won't have any 'ties' to him if you do D him and move on with your life, meaning you won't have to see him at your children's weddings or grandchildren's b'day parties or family functions if they take place at one of the kids houses.

But you did spend so much time and emotional energy on the man.

I don't want you to lose your marriage Harmony. I beleive in fighting for what you beleive in. You beleive in marriage or you wouldn't be here at MB.


I love my H, ofcourse I do, it runs deep. I care for him so. However, I have grown so much through this MB process. I had a previous thread running which was called 'FWW in need of help and hope' , my previous name was Hitch. I can say that now as no one checks my thread. I created a new thread incase WH checked it. It was between June and Oct when H and I were living together. I look back now and I am appalled. The way he treated me, whilst I watched my father die, was just horrendous. He punished me, right before my eyes for 9 months, stupid still I stayed there and let him do it, all because of my own guilt because of my own affair. He hit me, called me names, tormented me with other women, had affairs with 4 women possible more, threw things at me, broke my belongings, hit walls, initimidated me, went round tarnishing my name, would go out at night and not come home 3 or 4 nights a week and threatened to steal money from me. I remember one day smoking out the back door just feeling my body completely depeleted of any energy or life.

I know my behaviour during my affair was appalling and I want to acknowledge that here again that I have most definetly not forgotten that and I put him through incredible pain, but I did not deserve the amount of punishment he dished out.

One thing Pepperband said is don't measure who did what worse, I guess its tough not too.

I just can't help think I would be setting myself up for a life of misery if I were to reconcile with WH. I have gotten use to life without him, I have moved forwards from being in a place thinking I would have a nervious breakdown if we split up to knowing that it will be tough but I will and can be OK. I am still frightenend of divorce, terrified actually and am really scared about losing my home, finding a new one ect...

What is the attraction to go back to WH? He is clearly verging on an alchoholic, he has a tendency to be abusive, I have to deal with his affairs, he has to deal with mine, he treats me like a mother, his family clearly have issues, nothing I did would be good enough and on top of that he is the type he would carry an ongoing resentment for my affair.

One thing JL said to me is what does he do to sustain me? Well I can't think, I guess the only thing he can offer me is stability. I ran the house, the bills, the relationship effort, the weekend plans, the holiday ideas....

It just feels like too much of a gamble to put my life on it.

He turned up drunk AGAIN at the weekend, broke in the house, had a tantrum (I was at my sisters), there were scuffs on the wall and blood all over the sheets in the spare room (probably a drunkard fall). I came home sat morning and just thought, I have had enough, I want this to be over with and I just can't deal with it anymore. When I came into 2011 I was determined to make this a year of least possible 'bad things' and that includes putting up with toxic chite from WH.

Thanks all, I haven't been here for awhile lots to say!

Hope everyone is well!!

Hi Tom

Good to hear from you!

Originally Posted by Tom2010
And Char I am really worried now, she has a drs. sppt. next Monday and has had a urinary infection or disorder now since Christmas and now needing further tests.


I do hope that Char will be OK with her tests, thinking of you.

Originally Posted by Tom2010
Harmony, my question to you simply is have you ever considered getting more formal education as a counselor for a career? I do not say this lightly and it is simply based on what I know of you from your posts here, but those tell me that you are an intellegent and caring person, and that you have experienced a serious life disappointment and have come back from that. I just have a gut feeling that you have a tremendous amount to offer others as a trained professional is all.

Thank you Tom it is kind of you to say that. I guess I would like to put something back you know, I am just mindful of being vulnerable still. I have been to some counsellors here in the UK and I must say that I could not possibly do a worse job than them!! I will have a look into it, my problem would be getting too involved!!

I am much more relaxed than in previous posts and you always use to say to me lighten up Harm! I was so uptight back then everything seemed so much like life and death situations!! I guess recent events have put things into perspective. The hardest thing was dealing with the fact that I created the situation by my affair and that was very very hard to face, I sometimes wander if I fought to keep the marriage so much was because I didn't want it to fail through my own actions. I also wonder if the marriage would have succeeded if I had not had the affair and would we have been able to sort many of the issues out. My mother who is a wise old bird said that all she wanted was for someone who apprciated me and that although she liked my H, she felt he took me for granted and did not offer me the love care and support I deserved. Well maybe mum is a little biased but now I am out of the woods I can't help thinking that.

I listen to the way you post about your wife, and how much you care and love for her, and I guess that is what I truly want deep down. I just don't get that feeling from WH never have. He never grew up in a warm caring environment maybe that has had a major effect. I know he loves me but does not know how to show it, and I need that like a plant needs feeding and watering!!

Anyway, thanks for the last line Tom, I feel better about myself these days. I still sit here and wander how did it all go so horribly wrong?!! Teh thing is, I feel better inside than I have for years, more confident, more peaceful, happier, brighter, more adventurous, more positive!! All those issues such as fertility, divorce, marriage woes all seem a little bit more manageable.

God I am waffling today!!

Harmony.


I am starting to feel terrible that my H has made attempts at meeting up to discuss reconciliation, I am not that interested.

Even though they were pathetic attempts they were attempts.

He said that I had not been in touch to discuss meeting up, even though he had Plan B letter. That he was expecting to hear from me to arrange a meet up.

What has happened to me? I feel like I need to keep ploughing on away from WH. Not to look back. That too much bad stuff has happened, that he will never be able to meet my ENs.

SWAG: the consequences of a crappy Plan B?

(SWAG= Scientific Wild A$$ Guess)

Also; some people may not be able to forgive, depending on how much there is to forgive.

You will, at a minimum, at least owe an honest answer; there isn't any chances left.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
I am starting to feel terrible that my H has made attempts at meeting up to discuss reconciliation, I am not that interested.

Even though they were pathetic attempts they were attempts.

He said that I had not been in touch to discuss meeting up, even though he had Plan B letter. That he was expecting to hear from me to arrange a meet up.

What has happened to me? I feel like I need to keep ploughing on away from WH. Not to look back. That too much bad stuff has happened, that he will never be able to meet my ENs.

Your Love Bank is empty, and don't beat yourself up, he has not done what you asked or what is nessesary for recovery yet.

He is still drinking? Let your IMs know that thats not acceptable.

He just shows up unanounced? Same thing.

HAs he done anything to show you he has self-respect that doesn't come from you propping him up?

Give him the expectations, which are realistic BTW, that you will need to talk to him, besides that, you can't do much exept ignore him till this changes, and he is willing to do some heavy lifting.

God Bless Harm.
The break in Plan B, coupled with the 4 affairs my WH had, hitting me, throwing things at me, intimidating me, verbal abuse and alchoholism is probably more like it. All of these happened prior to Plan B.

I think I have simply woken up and smelt the coffee.

It makes me feel sad, and I know that Plan D is the only way forward.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/23/11 03:59 PM
Harmony, DrH discussed this on his radio show. He said that a lot of times, when a BW enters Plan B, she starts to look at her marriage and her WH differently. Sometimes she sees him for who he really is. She starts to reevaluate WHO she THOUGHT WH was.

There may have been too much harm done to your marriage to save it. That's a choice that you will make on your own.

The way I look at it, even in my case, the marriage I had is dead(thank God). I have a possibility of having a NEW marriage, be that with my WH or not. I now KNOW what it would take for someone to be married to me. My WH doesn't hold a candle to that man, doesn't mean he never will, just that he doesn't. I am walking MY path, if he wants to join me, he'll need to catch up.
Originally Posted by Harmony2010
The break in Plan B, coupled with the 4 affairs my WH had, hitting me, throwing things at me, intimidating me, verbal abuse and alchoholism is probably more like it. All of these happened prior to Plan B.

I think I have simply woken up and smelt the coffee.

It makes me feel sad, and I know that Plan D is the only way forward.


Hmmm...

So, it makes you feel sad to know that you deserve a happy, loving, supportive marriage, instead of a diseased and abusive marriage?

I try... I REALLY try to be a forgiving person, but I see no reason to abuse and intimidate the person that you are supposed to love, honor, cherish, and protect - and then adding adultery on top of that?

Harm... I hope whatever happens for you, that it sets your spirit free.
Thanks Scotland. I think you have summed it up well...

Originally Posted by Scotland
Harmony, DrH discussed this on his radio show. He said that a lot of times, when a BW enters Plan B, she starts to look at her marriage and her WH differently. Sometimes she sees him for who he really is. She starts to reevaluate WHO she THOUGHT WH was.


I have started to look at things differently. I still care for him, but it has mostly been a one way street in our relationship. Yes I messed up with my A, and I will always regret that. I will live with that shame forever and not sure how I will handle that when I meet someone else.

I think I could probably forgive his affairs/behaviour since he found out about my affair. However I cannot CHANGE him as a person. I have seen no evidence of change, just continual immature, disrespectful, entitled behaviour.





Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/23/11 09:18 PM
Hello.

Hey mitzie...I am almost laughing now, no not at your name or you to Harm's situation, but that, as I may have mentioned, we do have a cat named Mitize, and she is the sweetest cat and she is sitting on the dining room table here as I type.

By the way, further t/j, I respect the Steelers and the Packers for what they presented in the Super Bowl in terms of class from both teams. Obviously I feel elated that Green Bay won, but the Steeler are simply class! And, compared to Christina Aguilara, both of those teams have leared to be much more focused under pressure!..*s*


Harm,hi.oopps to tbc.phone.

Tom
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 02/23/11 11:58 PM
Hi Harm, and am sorry - had my son staying here the last week and now he is excited about a new job and also needing to call Char so has been busy, and had to take some calls but I apologize.

Ms. Harm, all I can say is that you sort of get me to image you as a Greer Garson - this comes from me watching that movie Randon Harvest with her and Ronald Coleman last weekend, and who is his right mind today watches a romance with Garson and Coleman from the 40's. Well I did. And sweeti I honestly did get misty eyed. Not the first time - I did see this film for my first time in like 1985 or so when I was home alone with our very young kids and she was hospitalized again. I can't remember that day very well except that it was in the winter, like Jan. or Feb. and the snow and cold, and I felt alone, but after seeing that film on local TV for the first time at that time God I felt guilty for not doing as much for her as I could and I felt privileged too for being married to her. Greer Garson is/was a redhead, so is Char, they both have the same enchanting looks, both have slim bodies, and oh yea I fell in love with Greer Garson - than after the movie realized I love my wife more than anything or anyone. Sometimes it takes even a film experience like that to wake you to reality.

Ms. Harm, please don't feel guilty about the affiar on your part. Ya know what, Char and I have had some pretty big hard knocks too - one of those is her putting up with my alcoholism, which she did. My only adivice to you is to break your Plan B at this time and to meet with your H at a neutral site of your choice. The thing I hear you sighing about is not having kids - i.e., a family by this time. The vast majority of couples expect that from a marriage. That is partly why I advise you to have a sitdown with him at this time. I honestly do not think that the Plan B now is doing either of you any good for the long-term, as opposed to an honest confrontation to resolve where you both want to be five years from now.

I appreciate your hesitancy at this time in even considering studying to be a counseling professional. I just still think tho you have so much to offer to many.

See ya,

Tom

Does anyone know how Harmony2010 is doing?
Hello there everyone!!

It is Harmony2010 here, under my previous posting name Hitch.

I always knew I would come back here, to simply say THANK YOU.

I have not been on here since Feb last year and so much has happened since.

Firstly I would like to bring you upto date. The last time I was on here I was in Plan B. Something happened to me during Plan B when I realised that I no longer wanted to fight for my marriage. That was the early part of last year. 3 things had a massive impact on my outlook on life, my fathers death, my new zest for life and the boundaries that I had built here.

I realised I no longer had to put up with bad behaviour from others around me, and that has resulted in me cutting 2 people out of my life for good. My BH/WH and a close friend.

I filed for divorce in April this year and at times it has been tough but I have not looked back or regretted that decision since. My WH continued to try and break my plan B, harrassed and stalked me, turned up drunk, played games with me, played along with conversations to keep me in the background and womanised. During none of this time did he want to entertain a sensible conversation about how to move forward whatever that decision would be recovery or divorce. It was only with the help of a very big cousin and filing for divorce when he finally left me alone in April 2011. The divorce was tough and I don't envy anyone doing it with children. I engaged the help of a very good solicitor and without boring you with the detail, after going to court finally came to a financial agreement on 30 September on the divorce was finalised beginning of November. I have entered no contact for life.

I have also spent a major part of the year coming to terms with my fathers death and I would only say New Year 2012 did I get a sense of peace and acceptance with his death. Progress?

Overtime I have realised that I came here to Marriage Builders not really to rebuild my marriage, but simply to learn how to live a happy, good life surrounded by the right people and ofcourse learn about what makes a marriage work. I learnt so many things here that they are now embedded in my everyday life. I can't tell you how much I have grown as a person.

I have made new friends along the way, good positive people with decent morals who only want the best for me. It has also meant that I cut off one friend, when I used my boundaries and confronted her with something she did in a calm way and she flew off the handle in a rage and got quite nasty. It was then realised that she thought she could treat me anyway she liked without being confronted, yes I was sad but relieved I didn't have to put up with it anymore. JL wrote that may happen as a result of having boundaries.

Here are some of the key things I have learnt from people here:

Constant � Constant once said to me you make pretty good decisions, you just get swayed at times� this has stuck with me and now I am not seeking everyone�s opinion, the person who knows what is best for me is me! I am so much more confident now about making decisions and believing in myself. Constant was always there for me � thank you &#61514;

Pepperband - told me to me put my BIGPANTS on!! I still tell that to myself when life throws difficult says or situations at me, such as the day I went to court and had to face my XH or when I had to go to my fathers funeral. It really works! Pepper also told me I was too needy so true!!

HoldHerHand � said that the only reason he was with his wife was because he chose to be there and he also had the freedom to leave at any time. Also why would I be sad about leaving a diseased abusive marriage?

Scotland � Just for her general strength at maintaining Plan B and how important it is in your recovery!

Just Learning � well where do I start? Really the boundaries he taught me are invaluable, and are part of my everyday life now. JL also taught me to have perspective on situations, and would ask me - Why are you sad? Do you like being abused? I grimace now on how hard it was for me to understand boundaries, no wonder I was all over the place! Having a healthy perspective has meant I have coped so much better with situations.

Overall I have a much healthier clearer perspective on life. I feel so much stonger, happier and excited about my future. I seem to relate to people better, have clearer boundaries and and am more in tune with myself and my wants and needs. I know that I do not need a man to be happy.

I really went through a massive learning curve when I came on this site and all the people helped me do that. I was so confused back then I didn�t understand the advice I was given but I have checked back in on this site over time and it all makes perfect sense. I laugh at how much I struggled with putting boundaries in place, now they come so naturally and I knew that part of that would be letting some people in my life go. My fathers death has also made me realised how precious life really is and has made me do one thing and that is LIVE!!

Overtime I have learned to forgive myself for the affair, but I will always regret it.

I can�t ever thank you all enough. This place is really special.
Bravo to you, Harmony!! Thanks for the update! smile
Was just thinking about you the other day harmony, weird huh?

It is great that you cane back and updated us. It's proof that you have turned a corner

Again condolences for the loss of your Dad

Thanks for checking in with us, now I will have to eat my words I was saying to myself, about people invested in, and then they disappear lol

Now what can I find to complain about?
Posted By: Scotland Re: Newbie just started Plan B need support - 01/03/12 02:07 AM
Harm, it's so good to see you. Sorry to hear about your D, and sorry about your dad. I am so glad that you are moving on in a positive way. I hope that when you enter into a new relationship, you use the MB tools at your disposal.

You sound good, and for that I am glad. You are ALWAYS welcome here. We'd love to hear more updates.

hug
Wow what a story on personal development...
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